Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29378

 1                           Monday, 8 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminaries.  Is the Defence ready to call its

12     next witness?  And we'll hear that witness through a videolink.

13             Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that everything's

15     fine, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear this -- the testimony of the witness,

17     Witness GRM010, with protective measures of pseudonym, voice and face

18     distortion.

19             Can we verify whether the videolink is functioning well?

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] From videolink's site we can hear

23     you and we can see you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We see some of you -- some but not all, but we

25     can hear you clearly.  Could you please inform me, Madam Registrar at the

Page 29379

 1     our side of the videolink, who is in the room with you at this moment.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Apart from myself and the witness,

 3     there is ITSS technician as well.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

 5             Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before you give evidence the Rules require

 8     that you make a solemn declaration.  Therefore, would you please repeat

 9     my words: I solemnly declare.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That I will speak the truth.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will speak the truth.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing but the truth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness.  Witness GRM010, because that's

18     how we will call you, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

19     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

20             Witness, if there would be any matter, any answer you intend to

21     give which would reveal your identity, please ask to go into private

22     session, because no one will see your face, no one will hear your voice,

23     and we'll not use your own name.  But if by answering a question you are

24     at risk to reveal your identity, we'll move into private session so as to

25     hear your answer without anyone else outside this courtroom hearing it.

Page 29380

 1             Is that clear to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you may proceed.

 4             Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour.  I'm --

 6     don't know if you have the same, but we are not seeing the actual face.

 7     We're getting the face distortion.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, face distortion is one of the protective

 9     measures.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I thought normally we didn't have to do that, and

11     I think -- I thought we were able to actually be able to see the face and

12     I think that's important.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I was informed that this creates some technical

14     problems because, of course, we're hearing this witness at long distance

15     and that makes the difference compared to having a witness here in this

16     courtroom.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I now -- I now can see -- see the witness so I --

18     I take it that's not going to be a problem?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's always of some concern if the Prosecution

20     sees more than the Judges do.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I won't say we're all-knowing, but I hope

22     you can see the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that by -- we have the left down button which

Page 29381

 1     can be activated only in this courtroom which allows us to see the

 2     witness, whereas on the record his face will be blurred.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go into private session for one

 4     second.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We go into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

24                           WITNESS:  WITNESS GRM010

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 29382

 1                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, good morning,

 3     Your Honours.  Good morning to my learned friends in the Prosecution.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the witness

 7     to be provided with 65 ter 1D05305.  The document shouldn't be broadcast

 8     outside of the courtroom.

 9        Q.   And then I would kindly ask the witness not to read the document

10     aloud but just to confirm whether the information contained in the

11     document is correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, shall we -- we move into private

13     session for a second.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 29383











11  Pages 29383-29384 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29385

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Witness, could you please tell the Chamber whether you gave a

 9     statement to the General Mladic Defence team, did you give that statement

10     in writing, and did you answer all the questions that were put to you on

11     that occasion?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again without the

14     document being broadcast out of the courtroom, I would like to call up

15     65 ter 1D01738.  Once again, I would like to emphasise that the document

16     shouldn't be broadcast.

17        Q.   Witness, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Mladic

18     Defence team and do you remember that you could then read it or listen to

19     it being read out to you and that then you signed it as your own

20     statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S version has disappeared again.  We

24     should have the document in both languages.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We started both in B/C/S.  Now we are in both

Page 29386

 1     English.  We would appreciate to have one side in B/C/S, the other side

 2     in English.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the

 4     technical service for their help.  And again, can we look at the last

 5     page of the statement in B/C/S and in English without broadcasting it

 6     outside of the courtroom.

 7        Q.   Witness -- just a moment.  Bear with me while we are waiting for

 8     the last page of the document to appear in English as well.

 9             Having read out the content of the statement, did you put your

10     signature on the last page of this statement and could you please tell us

11     when you did that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'm interested in paragraph 10 of this statement.

14     Paragraph 10 --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move a paragraph, the last question

16     you put to the witness should be answered:  "Tell us when you did that."

17     And the witness only said "yes," but he has not given the time and the

18     date.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, did you hear the question put to you by His Honour

21     Judge Fluegge.  Could you please read or could you please tell us if you

22     remember the date when you signed the statement?

23        A.   I can't remember the exact date.  No, no, I can't remember the

24     date.

25        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  However, did you actually put the date on

Page 29387

 1     the day when you signed the statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at paragraph 10.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, the document shouldn't be

 5     broadcast outside of the courtroom.

 6        Q.   I'll direct your attention to the paragraph by actually reading

 7     it.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And as for the Trial Chamber, I

 9     am directing you, Your Honours, to the last sentence where it says:

10             "I let the soldier go.  That soldier introduced himself to me as

11     Milenko Mladic.  After that I have never seen him."

12        Q.   Witness, during the proofing session, did you actually voice your

13     suspicion about the accuracy of the person's name?  Did you share your

14     dilemma with me?

15        A.   Yes.  It is possible that his name was not Milenko but Milanko,

16     but this is just the way I am thinking.  And now I did not manage to get

17     to the bottom of that.  I'm sure that his last name is Mladic, but I'm

18     not sure about his first name.  I'm not sure whether he is Milenko or

19     Milanko.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 11 in the last sentence of that

21     paragraph, you voiced the same dilemma about the name referred to in

22     paragraph 11; again, Milenko or Milanko.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at paragraph 19 of your

25     statement --

Page 29388

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Without broadcasting that part

 2     of the document outside of the courtroom.

 3        Q.   In line 8 in the English version of the document and in line 6 of

 4     the B/C/S version, you mentioned that there were not more than 10 to 15

 5     soldiers in that company.  I don't want to identify the location.  Did

 6     you tell me that you had some reservations about the number of people who

 7     were there?

 8        A.   Yes.  I counted the elements of that unit.  However, again I

 9     didn't get to the bottom of that.  There was the commander of that unit.

10     There was a paramedic, and there were also five or six other men there.

11        Q.   To the best of your recollection, instead of not more than 10 to

12     15 soldiers, what should state here?

13        A.   I would add the number six plus one, and it would be a total of

14     seven; right.

15        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  And now that you have given the solemn

16     declaration to speak the truth, and to the best of your recollection, now

17     that you have made the two corrections to the statement, could you please

18     tell the Trial Chamber whether today, under the oath, you claim that the

19     statement reflects what you remember and what you know?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

22     tender 1D01738 into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the formula is that we also ask the witness

24     whether he would give the same answers if the same questions would be put

25     to him today.

Page 29389

 1             Witness, have you heard what I just said?  Would you give, in

 2     substance, the same answers if asked the same questions today?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one other question to you at this

 5     moment.

 6             You just discussed paragraph 19 and you said there must have been

 7     six plus one; so, therefore, seven soldiers.  In paragraph 19 you are

 8     commenting on a report.  Now, could you tell us where exactly you were

 9     when the events described in the report happened in Konjevic Polje?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 10th to 21st, I was in

11     Belgrade.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you did not personally observe what

13     happened in Konjevic Polje and how many men there were?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you are also apparently aware of part of

16     the unit being in Derventa.  You were not in Derventa either at that

17     time, were you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore your calculation of how many men would

20     have been there is just on basis of what exactly?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I base my calculation on my

22     knowledge of previous orders and my knowledge of the unit that was

23     located there.  So those seven people were from the unit that was

24     permanently based there, whereas parts of some other parts (redacted)

25     were there just in transit.  They went from there to complete assignments

Page 29390

 1     elsewhere.  So this unit was permanently based there.  It had those seven

 2     people as its members, the seven people that I have mentioned.  So that

 3     was the maximum number.  That was my estimate of its maximum strength

 4     based on what I knew who was registered as member of that unit.  So it

 5     could have been fewer people than what I said but not more than that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  How could you exclude reinforcement or how could you

 7     exclude that those in transit may have assisted for a short while?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't actually exclude that.  The

 9     figure I gave you pertains to the logistics unit that was based there.

10     So I'm sure that figure is accurate in the sense that it could not have

11     been more than that.

12             As for the units that were in transit through the area, those

13     were two units that passed through Konjevic Polje, and regarding them I

14     said that in my estimate it could have been that number as a maximum

15     number, knowing the assignments that the unit had and knowing its

16     strength.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's all theory and how many people there

18     actually were you are unable to tell us on the basis of your own

19     observation.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, meaning that you are, indeed, not able to tell

22     it on the basis of your own observation?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This repeats the problem.  When you say no, you mean

25     that you indeed are not in a position to tell us what actually -- how

Page 29391

 1     many men there actually were?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm not in the position to

 3     tell you exactly how many people there were actually there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             No objections.  Madam, Registrar, the statement would receive

 6     number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 1D01738 receives exhibit number

 8     D846, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D846 is admitted, under seal.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

11     permission I would like to read the witness's summary.  But prior to

12     that, could we briefly go into private session, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29392

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session, Your

11     Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll continue, Your Honour.

15             The first tasks for this witness, when he found himself in the

16     Sarajevo theatre of war, were construction works on the Lukavica-Pale

17     road.  He was then involved in erecting barricades around the Lukavica

18     barracks and erecting shelters around the barracks.

19             The first combat that the unit had was near the Vrbanja bridge.

20     That's when they hit an ambush while they were providing security for the

21     road taken by the JNA column which was leaving Sarajevo.  He provides a

22     lot of details about the event when he was assigned to camouflage and

23     make shelters in Grbavica.  He toured the positions with a MUP officer.

24     Those positions were exposed to snipers.  On that occasion, he personally

25     heard a conversation over the radio between a member of the MUP of

Page 29393

 1     Republika Srpska and an unknown person in Pofalici.  On that occasions,

 2     fire support was requested for the part of Pofalici inhabited by Serbs

 3     because a gang had started torching houses and plundering property.

 4     That's why the Serbs started withdrawing towards the Zuc and

 5     Mijatovici Kosa facilities.

 6             He remembers that on that occasion he met a member of his unit

 7     whose name was either Milenko or Milanko Mladic.  He was in tears when he

 8     told him that from the positions where he was deployed he could hear

 9     smoke coming from the torched houses in Pofalici.  One of those houses

10     was the house of the Mladic family.  On that same day, he also heard a

11     radio communication between two collocutors who said that fire should be

12     opened on Pofalici.  As far as he remembers, the word used on that

13     occasion were there are no longer any Serbs there anyway.  He concluded

14     that the request was made to open fire on either military or paramilitary

15     formations who had chased the Serbian population from Pofalici.

16             Your Honours, I would stop here and I would not go on reading the

17     summary because the text could identify the witness.

18        Q.   And with that, I would like to thank the witness for answering

19     our questions.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness GRM010, you'll now be cross-examined.

23             Carefully listen to the questions.

24             You may proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 29394

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2        Q.   Witness, I first want to ask you about --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I should have introduced you first.  But perhaps

 4     you do it yourself.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Yes.  Sir, you may remember me from many years ago --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- if you just say that you're

 8     Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   -- when I questioned you in another case.  My name is

11     Peter McCloskey.

12             Now, I want to take you briefly to your time in Sarajevo.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to D846.

14        Q.   Where you talk about General Mladic speaking to people, including

15     yourself, about Operation Lukavica 93.  And on that, on page -- on

16     paragraph 13 of your statement, you state:

17             "On that occasion, he also explicitly said that the idea which

18     was in many people's heads of capturing the city of Sarajevo, like

19     cutting the aforementioned access ..."

20             And that was, as you said earlier, the Grbavica-Tito

21     barracks-Pofalici axis.  And I'll -- by cutting the aforementioned axis

22     was, and I quote, "unacceptable to him because it would cause many

23     civilian casualties on both sides and would contribute to nothing but

24     bloodshed."

25             And you say:

Page 29395

 1             "This idea never again made it to the operational level or even

 2     the tactical level."

 3             Now are you saying, Witness, that Mladic after this time never

 4     intended to take over the Sarajevo city?

 5        A.   I don't know what his intentions were.  What I witnessed was that

 6     meeting and at that meeting he spoke about the objectives of Lukavica 93

 7     operation.  Amongst other things, he gave an explanation which I shared

 8     with you in the statement.  Before that gathering, he --

 9        Q.   So you don't know what his intentions were regarding the

10     Lukavica 93 operation regarding the potential take-over of Sarajevo?

11        A.   At that meeting and in the documents that I had an occasion to

12     see, I did not hear that or saw or see anything that would point to that.

13     When he provided the explanation about that operation, he said that his

14     idea was to take that area and to link up two corps, the Herzegovina and

15     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  And as a result of those military successes,

16     the enemy side would be forced to negotiate and a just peace would be

17     achieved as a result of that.  That's what he said.  Those were his

18     words.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P6549.

20        Q.   And this is a document dated 26 June 1993.  It's an order from

21     General Galic, who we know was the commander of the

22     Sarajevo Romanija Corps at the time.  This order is entitled:

23     "Lukavac 93" as we would see on the first page of that order.  And I'm

24     not going to take you through this order completely, but does this look

25     like an order that you would have received?

Page 29396

 1             Can you look at this order, sir?  Can you see it on a screen

 2     or ...?

 3        A.   No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could relevant portions be read to the witness if

 5     need be.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And I'm sure Mr. Stojanovic would

 7     agree with me that this is the order that I stated.

 8        Q.   In the first paragraph -- the second part of the first paragraph,

 9     it says:

10             "It is expected that UNPROFOR forces will indirectly support the

11     Muslims in their coming operations, and it is also possible that NATO

12     forces will provide them direct air support."

13             So, Witness, is it fair to say that General Mladic and

14     General Galic would have considered the presence and potential activity

15     of UNPROFOR and NATO in determining their intent towards the city of

16     Sarajevo?

17        A.   The meeting that I mentioned and where I heard what I heard and

18     shared with you in the statement, there were no such stories at that

19     meeting.  I did not have an opportunity to attend any other meetings

20     where that matter would have been discussed in that way and where a

21     possibility that you've just mention would have been discussed in that

22     way.

23        Q.   Can you answer the questions, the -- the witness?

24        A.   The answer is no.  No, not in the sense that I did not have an

25     occasion to attend such a meeting.

Page 29397

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go into private session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 29398











11  Page 29398 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29399

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             We take the break a little bit earlier than usual.  We'll resume

 6     at ten minutes to 11.00.  And most likely we'll, although perhaps very

 7     briefly, then return into private session.

 8             We take the break.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you know that that's not what you're

13     supposed to do.  Would you refrain from doing that.

14             Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to continue and should we move into

15     private session?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please, Mr. President.  I am.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into -- well, that's an answer to one of my

18     questions.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and yes, I believe.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So do -- you're -- and ready and we should

21     move into private session?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29400











11  Pages 29400-29423 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29424

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             We take a break of 20 minutes and the expectation is that after

 7     the break we'll have another 10 to 15 minutes in private session.

 8             Mr. McCloskey, is that to be expected?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think so given the documents and answers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I just in order to inform the public about what

11     the public can expect.

12             We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, we return into private session.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And if we could go

17     back briefly to P --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Wait a moment.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, sorry.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29425











11  Pages 29425-29439 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29440

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             We take a break and we resume at quarter past 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think we can remain in open session at

17     this moment.

18             I'd like to you ask -- no, let me first -- let's first turn into

19     private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29441











11  Pages 29441-29455 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29456

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             Witness, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the place

 9     where the videolink took place and for having answered all the questions

10     that were put to you by the parties and by the Chamber, and I wish you a

11     safe return home again.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We can terminate the videolink.

15             Videolink ended.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness

17     because we would have 20 minutes left.

18             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the next witness be escorted into

20     the courtroom.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, for your information, the

22     information on the Drina Corps collection was provided on one page of the

23     transcript by Erin Gallagher a long time back.  It can be found on

24     transcript 9432 and 9433 and confirms the date I'd mentioned, but there's

25     a bit more information.  It's a unique situation.

Page 29457

 1             And also to let you know, Ms. Hasan is aware of an assignment --

 2     a question you had about her witness, 130, about similar orders to a --

 3     to one -- I think it was an order on the 15 July that you heard about and

 4     we are ready -- she's ready to respond briefly to that.  We wanted to

 5     speak to Mr. Ivetic about what -- what we had found and we will do that

 6     and get back to you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would then ask to be excused.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  May I assume that you're Mr. Amidzic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Amidzic, before you give evidence the Rules

15     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

16     that declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  BOSKO AMIDZIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

22             Mr. Amidzic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You find

23     him to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

24     Mr. Mladic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

Page 29458

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Perhaps if I could have the

 2     assistance of the usher, I have a hard copy of the statement which should

 3     allow us to go quicker and use our time efficiently.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The usher will certainly assist.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   In the meantime, good day, Colonel.  Could you please state your

 8     full name for the record.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.  My name is Bosko Amidzic.  My father's name was

10     Risto.

11             MR. IVETIC:  And at this time I would call up in e-court

12     65 ter 1D01712.

13        Q.   Now, sir, what we have on the screen you also have in front of

14     you on paper.  I would direct you to the Serbian original and ask you to

15     tell us whose signature we see here on this first page.

16        A.   On the first page, I can see my signature, my own signature.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can please turn to the last page of the

18     Serbian original in e-court.

19        Q.   And, sir, if could you turn to the last page of the hard copy

20     that has been provided to you, can you tell us whose signature appears

21     with the date on this page?

22        A.   Also mine.  My signature appears again, and the date is 25th

23     June 2014.  That's my personal signature in my own hand.

24        Q.   And do you, in fact, recall giving a statement to the Defence

25     team of General Mladic on the date which is indicated?

Page 29459

 1        A.   I remember that.  That statement was read to me, and at that

 2     moment after the statement was read to me, I signed it in my own hand.

 3        Q.   Now after you signed this statement, did you have an occasion

 4     this last week to re-read the whole statement in Serbian so as to check

 5     if everything is accurately recorded within the statement?

 6        A.   Yes, I had that occasion.  I read the entire statement, and I did

 7     make some corrections.  I did make some changes to it.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd like to first turn to page 7 in both

 9     languages.

10        Q.   And I'd like to look together at paragraph number 29 of your

11     statement.

12        A.   Paragraph 29.

13        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

14        A.   It says here:

15             "On the 6th of June 1992, I dealt with eight specific issues."

16             The mistake is instead of "eight" it should be "in addition to"

17     or "besides" or "apart from."

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. IVETIC:  And now I'd like to look at paragraph 32 on this

20     same page.

21        Q.   And, sir, in English, this paragraph, 32, says that there were

22     several camps for prisoners of war that were organised by your units;

23     whereas, the Serbian says that there were no more such camps.  Which is

24     the correct fact?

25        A.   It is correct that in my units or, rather, in my corps there was

Page 29460

 1     only one prisoner of war camp, and that was -- that one was in Manjaca.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And now I'd like to turn to page 12 in the English,

 3     page 13 in the Serbian, and I'd like to focus on paragraph number 63.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   And, sir, I would ask you simply to explain for us what

 7     clarification or correction is necessary to make this paragraph accurate.

 8        A.   In this paragraph, it says:  "I was with him in Sanski Most."

 9     However, this should be corrected and this should read:  "I was not with

10     him in Sanski Most.  General Vladic popped over to see me in Banja Luka,

11     he read his every report to me," and the rest is correct.  The rest of

12     the paragraph reads:   "If I had any objections I could share those with

13     him.  If not, then fine."

14             In any case, what I wanted to correct was the fact that I did not

15     accompany him to the assembly meeting in Sanski Most.  That's the change.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we can go to the next page in Serbian and

18     page 14 in the English and paragraph 64.

19        Q.   Now, sir, in the English, the date for these events in

20     paragraph 64 is 1998, whereas in Serbian it is 1988.  Can you tell us

21     which date is accurate for the events in this paragraph?

22        A.   The exact date or rather the exact year in my version is 1988.

23     That's when the military was reorganised and the changes apply to that

24     year.

25        Q.   Now, Colonel, apart from these corrections and clarifications, do

Page 29461

 1     you stand by everything else in your written statement as written?

 2        A.   Everything that is written in this statement remains as is, and I

 3     stand by the form and the significance of that statement.

 4        Q.   And, Colonel, if I were to ask you questions today arising out of

 5     the same topics as in your statement, would your answers to those

 6     questions be the same as we find in your statement?

 7        A.   They would always be the same.  The next time, and I don't know

 8     how many times after that, were to you repeat the questions for -- from

 9     the statement, my answers would still be the same.

10        Q.   Sir, insofar as you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the

11     truth, does that mean that your answers are truthful in nature, as

12     recorded in the statement?

13        A.   Yes.  The answers are truthful, and indeed that's what they

14     should be.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the Defence would tender 1D01712 as a

16     public exhibit.  There are no associated exhibited with this statement.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask the witness one question

18     before admission of the statement.

19             In relation to your correction you just made in paragraph 32, in

20     June of this year, 25th of June, you signed this statement.  There it

21     reads:

22             "There were several camps for prisoners of war reorganised by our

23     units."

24             Now you read that again, and you say:  "There were no more camps

25     for prisoners of war."

Page 29462

 1             What -- what -- what triggered this change?  Why didn't you

 2     realise if that was a mistake, this mistake already in June of this year?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the difference is in the English.

 4     That did not -- the English translation came after the Serbian original,

 5     so that would not have been before the witness in June when he signed the

 6     Serbian original which does not --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is in my statement.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please read paragraph 32 which is on

 9     the screen at the moment in your language?  Just this one sentence.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gladly.  Paragraph 32 reads:

11             "There were no other prisoner of war camps in the organisation of

12     our units."

13             That what I'm reading and that's correct, full stop.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Now I understood it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01712 receives exhibit number D847,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D847 is admitted.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I at this time have a

21     short public summary, which I think we could finish before the pause.

22             The witness is a career military officer.  When the VRS was

23     established, he was chief of the quartermaster service within the

24     1st Krajina Corps.  He was appointed assistant commander for logistics in

25     February 1993.  He retired from service in 1997.

Page 29463

 1             In 1993 the combat readiness analysis of the VRS concluded the

 2     VRS operated in extreme shortage of financial and material means and

 3     fuel, and very scarce material reserves at all levels.  The war brought a

 4     disruption of the production structures, such that they were far from

 5     meeting the regular needs of the army and the population.

 6             The Operation Corridor 92 was undertaken because there was not

 7     enough food, medicines, and fuel, neither for the army nor the

 8     population.

 9             As to prisoners of war camps, the witness states that the only

10     one organised by the 1st Krajina Corps was Manjaca, which only operated

11     till November 1992 when the prisoners of war were exchanged.  Prior to

12     that time, the prisoners themselves prepared and distributed their own

13     food.  The witness states that many lies have been reported about

14     Manjaca.

15             The witness talks of the reception of Croats from Central Bosnia

16     who were running from the Muslim forces in Central Bosnia and who were

17     accommodated by the VRS, given food, water, and medical attention, and

18     transported to destinations of their choice, upon order of

19     General Mladic.

20             This completes the summary of the witness, and I see that we're

21     just about at the time for the break today.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we finish, sir, can you look at page

23     84, line 11.  Did you did you "disruption of the protection structures"

24     or "production structures"?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I hope I said "production structures," that's what I

Page 29464

 1     meant.  If I misspoke, I apologise.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             Mr. Amidzic, we will adjourn for the day.  You've been with us

 5     only for a very short time, but we'd like to see you back tomorrow

 6     morning.  But before you leave this courtroom, I'd like to instruct you

 7     that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever it

 8     may be, with -- about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've

 9     given today, not much yet although the whole statement is now in

10     evidence, or whether that is evidence still to be given tomorrow.

11             We'd like to see you back 9.30, tomorrow morning, in this same

12     courtroom.  You may follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

16     Tuesday, the 9th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

17     courtroom, I.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

20                           December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.