Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29561

 1                           Wednesday, 10 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning.

 8             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I know that there's one pending preliminary matter which is not

11     of any urgence, so therefore I'd rather leave it.

12             If the parties are ready, the witness could be escorted in the

13     courtroom.

14             Meanwhile, I address the Defence in relation to the 92 ter motion

15     for Vojo Kupresanin.  The Defence has tendered 38 associated exhibits for

16     Witness Vojo Kupresanin, and the Chamber reminds the Defence that it

17     prefers that documents are tendered through the witness in court and

18     invites the Defence to reduce the number of associated exhibits.

19             The two remaining issues are P6965 and P6926, revised

20     translations.  We'll deal with them but first wait for the witness to

21     escort -- to be escorted in the courtroom.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             THE WITNESS:  "Dobro jutro."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lelek.  Can you hear me in a

25     language you understand?

Page 29562

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lelek, before you give evidence the Rules

 3     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

 4     to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  MILOVAN LELEK

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Lelek.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lelek, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.

12     You'll find Mr. Ivetic standing to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of

13     the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

14             Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your full name for

18     purposes of the record.

19        A.   Good morning.  My name is Milovan Lelek.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would ask for 1D1765 in e-court.  I had also

21     prepared a clean paper copy that I gave to the Prosecution.  I don't know

22     whether they've had a chance to look at it.

23        Q.   Sir, looking at the monitor in front of you, first of all, can

24     you tell us do you remember giving this statement to members of the

25     Defence team?

Page 29563

 1        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it, Mr. Ivetic, that you wanted the --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, if the Prosecution has, could I --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher assist in giving the statement to

 5     the witness.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   Sir, my next question is:  Looking at the first page of this

 8     statement, can you tell us whose signature we see on the cover page?

 9        A.   This is my signature.

10             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could now turn to the last page in both

11     versions.

12        Q.   We see here a signature and a date.  Can you tell us whose

13     signature this is?

14        A.   This is also my signature.

15        Q.   Sir, subsequent to signing this statement earlier this year, did

16     you have a chance to review the same in Serbian during proofing to verify

17     if everything was correct in it?

18        A.   During the proofing with the Defence team lawyers, I had an

19     opportunity to review the statement and I realised that there were some

20     things in there that needed to be changed because they do not reflect

21     what I stated.

22             MR. IVETIC:  If we can first turn to page 3 in both languages,

23     and I would like to look at paragraph 12.

24        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 12 there is a -- an associated exhibit that is

25     identified as 1D03109, and did you and I ascertain that, in fact, the

Page 29564

 1     correct document that you are referring to is 1D03122?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we can look at paragraph 13, the same

 4     page in Serbian, the next page in English.

 5        Q.   In the paragraph there is a sentence that starts:

 6             "Two days after that, the Serb population and part of the Muslims

 7     evacuated ..."

 8             What can you tell us about the correct time-period that this

 9     sentence is applicable to?

10        A.   This sentence should read instead of the "Muslims did not allow

11     the body to be pulled out and thereafter a conflict with the Muslims

12     ensued."  This sentence should read after the sentence --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  This is impossible to interpret.

14             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the interpreters have problems.

16             Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you -- I take it that you're more or less

17     aware and could you take it step by step so that the interpreters are

18     able to provide us with the accurate translation of the changes the

19     witness wishes to make.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And also focus on the same part of the paragraph.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Sir, if we can focus on the middle of the paragraph, you say:

23     "Rogatica was completely liberated as late as 23 July 1992."

24             And then the very next sentence starts:

25             "Two days after that, the Serb population and part of the Muslims

Page 29565

 1     evacuated ..."

 2             To what time-period should the two days after that relate?

 3        A.   This should refer to the period after the 22nd of May, 1992, a

 4     day or two after the 22nd of May, 1992.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could now focus on the last two sentences

 7     in this paragraph.  To do so, we'll have to go to the next page in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   And now, sir, if we could focus on the last two sentences.  First

 9     of all, in -- the first starts:

10             "After that, a decision was made that the town must be

11     liberated ..."

12             What you can you tell us about the placement of the last two

13     sentences of this paragraph?

14        A.   The last sentence, "The civilian population was again safely

15     evacuated, mostly Muslims," it should be moved and it should follow the

16     sentence:  "About 20 to 25 May, 1992, we were informed that long columns

17     of civilians were on their way to Vragolovi."  After that the sentence,

18     "The civilian population was again safely evacuated, mostly Muslims,"

19     should be inserted.

20        Q.   And in that sentence mentioning Vragolovi, you have a date listed

21     as about 20 to 25 May and in the English it says 1995.  In the Serbian it

22     says 20 to 25 May 1992.  Are either of those dates accurate?

23        A.   The accurate date is between 20 and 25 June.

24        Q.   Of what year?

25        A.   1992.

Page 29566

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Now if we can turn to paragraph 14, which should be

 3     on the page in both languages.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yes?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please clarify where now the -- after that

 7     decision was made that the town must be liberated from the armed Muslim

 8     forces.  Where does this now find its place?

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Sir, the Judge is asking about the sentence that says:

11             "After that a decision was made that the town must be liberated

12     from the armed Muslim forces."

13             How do we understand that sentence chronologically?  Where does

14     it fall, where does it belong?

15        A.   That sentence should be the last in the paragraph, and it should

16     follow the sentence which reads:

17             "The civilian population was again safely evacuated, mostly

18     Muslims."

19             And after that, the following sentence should be inserted:

20             "After that a decision was made that the town had to be liberated

21     from the armed Muslim forces."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So that was after the civilian population was safely

23     evacuated.  Could I also ask one -- already one short clarification.

24             You said a decision was made.  By whom?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of our -- our brigade

Page 29567

 1     made that decision.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   And paragraph 14.  Now, I'd like to focus on the last sentence

 6     which talks about the weapons that the Territorial Defence of Rogatica

 7     possessed, the military-issue weapons.  Do you have any corrections to

 8     make as to what is recorded here?

 9        A.   I have a correction to make.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is reading too fast.

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   One moment, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you read, could you do it very slowly.

14     Otherwise the interpreters are unable to translate your words.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  It says here that the

16     Territorial Defence of Rogatica had possessed military-issue weapons for

17     more than 500 soldiers.  Before the war I worked in the Territorial

18     Defence Staff and I know what the establishment of the Territorial

19     Defence was at that time.  I know that there were manoeuvre and special

20     units.  As for the manoeuvre unit, there was a staff with its units,

21     there was the department of the Territorial Defence at the logistics

22     base, and the reconnaissance units.  Those manoeuvre units had a total of

23     approximately 500 troops.  There were also spatial units of the

24     Territorial Defence which were the units of the local communes and

25     companies.  We had ten such units in local communes and 12 such units --

Page 29568

 1     or perhaps 13 which were attached to various companies.  There was a

 2     total of 1100 men in those territorial units in local communes and

 3     companies.  There were also about 500 troops in the manoeuvre units.  The

 4     grand total would have been 1500 troops and each of the soldiers had

 5     weapons issued to them.  That's why I think that this is a mistake.

 6     Where it says that there were more than 500 soldiers, this figure should

 7     be replaced with the figure 1500 soldiers.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Now let's look at paragraph 19 on page 5 in English

11     and 5 in the Serbian as well.

12        Q.   And in that paragraph -- in that paragraph, you discuss incidents

13     involving aid convoys.  Could you clarify for us which of these incidents

14     were you personally present for?

15        A.   In paragraph 19 in the second sentence thereof, it says:

16             "I remember that in the course of 1994 ammunition was found in a

17     convoy transporting bags with flour."

18             I personally participated when that convoy was stopped and

19     controlled.  I did not participate in the control of the convoy where

20     sniper rifles were found.  It was a Canadian convoy which was supposed to

21     be transporting medical supplies.  I wasn't there.  But I did participate

22     in the control of the convoy where ammunition was found instead of bags

23     with flour.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to look at paragraph 21 at the bottom of this

25     page.  So that we can have a proper translation of the first sentence,

Page 29569

 1     could you slowly read the Serbian to us, the first sentence of

 2     paragraph 21.

 3        A.   The biggest Muslim strongholds or the strongholds of Muslim

 4     forces were in the town centre at Ljun in the area of Zivaljevina in the

 5     villages of Ladjevina, Ferizovici, Pribosjevici, Stjenice, Brezje,

 6     Kladanj, Pokrivenik and Vragolovi.

 7        Q.   And what you can you tell us about all these villages that you

 8     have just read off?  Do all of them belong in this paragraph?

 9        A.   When I provided the statement to the Mladic Defence team, I

10     stated that the biggest strongholds of Muslim forces were in the town

11     centre at Ljun in the area of Zivaljevina, Pokrivenik, and Vragolovi.  As

12     for the villages of Ladjevina, Ferizovici, Pribosjevici, they had their

13     observers there.  Those were Serbian villages and from there we got

14     messages about the movement of enemy forces, their strength, the location

15     of those forces.  From there, we received intelligence from our

16     observers.  I did not say that the strongholds of Muslim forces were in

17     those villages.

18        Q.   Now, sir, apart from the corrections we've gone through today, do

19     you stand by everything else in your statement as accurate?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   If I were to ask you questions today on the same topics as in

22     your statements, would your answers to those questions be the same in

23     substance as in the statement?

24        A.   In substance they would be the same.

25        Q.   And having taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth, would

Page 29570

 1     that mean that those answers, if you were to give them today, would be

 2     truthful?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender 1D1765 as an exhibit.

 5     There are two associated exhibits that go along with it, 1D03122 and

 6     1D04364.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Ivetic, I'm just seeking -- first of all, you said there was

10     a translation issue and you invited the witness to read slowly.  What was

11     then interpreted for us was the same, I think, as what we saw in the

12     translation.

13             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon?

15             MR. IVETIC:  One word is missing.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One word is missing and that was?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Forces.  There is a difference between a Muslim

18     stronghold and Muslim forces stronghold.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- yes.  Muslim stronghold and the

20     strongholds of Muslim forces.  Yes.  That's clear to me.

21             Then as far as the associated exhibits are concerned, I'm just

22     checking the numbers.  Yes.

23             Madam Registrar, the statement of the witness would receive

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  1D01765 receives exhibit number D849, Your

Page 29571

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D849 is admitted.

 3             Then the two associated exhibits.  The first one, I think in the

 4     order as mentioned, 1D03122, would receive number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  D850, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             1D04364 would receive number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  D851, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D851 is admitted.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have the public summary

12     that I'd like to read at this time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Milovan Lelek worked for ten years in the Rogatica

15     municipal Territorial Defence until 1990.  Thereafter, he worked as a

16     teacher in the elementary school in Sljedovici village, until early

17     March 1992 when Muslims set up roadblocks on the road leading to the

18     village.

19             Then with the situation in Rogatica becoming complex, he went to

20     his parents' village of Dobromirovci and stayed there until the end of

21     May.  As early as March 1992, the Muslim population started leaving

22     Rogatica and he saw on a daily basis armed groups of Muslims travelling

23     from Rogatica towards Kopljevici and Pokrivnek.

24             He found out about a Green Beret paramilitary commanded by

25     Maher Muftic with a staff headquartered in one of Rogatica's mosques.

Page 29572

 1     Both mosques in Rogatica were destroyed during armed fighting when the

 2     town was under the control of Muslim forces.

 3             The witness went to Borike at the invitation of the Territorial

 4     Defence and joined the command there as a reserve captain first class.

 5             He recalls Radio Sarajevo reports misreported the situation in

 6     Rogatica to create a picture about wicked Serbs and victimised Muslims.

 7             He recalls incidents where humanitarian convoys were found to

 8     have ammunition in flour bags, sniper radios, and other military

 9     hardware.  Helicopters were often seen flying towards Zepa and it was

10     later learned these too carried military equipment.

11             And that completes the summary of the evidence.  I have a few

12     additional questions.

13        Q.   Sir --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Sir, were there Muslim villages in Rogatica that stayed loyal to

17     the Serb side?

18        A.   There were several villages in Rogatica that remained loyal to

19     the Serb side: Zakomo, Berkovici, Burati, Satorovici, Okruglo, Strmac,

20     Madjar.

21        Q.   What was the attitude of the Serb authorities in Rogatica to

22     these villages that stayed loyal?

23        A.   The municipal civilian authorities regularly supplied these

24     villages with everything they needed to meet their basic needs and also

25     cattle feed, fuel, gasoline, crude oil, so that they could continue

Page 29573

 1     working in agriculture.  Muslim loyal villages continued to live together

 2     with the neighbouring Serb villages, just as they did before the war.

 3     There was no difference.

 4        Q.   And what eventually happened to these loyal Muslim villages in

 5     Rogatica?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 7     microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we'll take the

10     example of the village of Satorovici.  They lived a normal life with the

11     neighbouring Serb villages, and in that Muslim village General Asim

12     Hodzic lived at the time as well.  They were receiving regular supplies

13     as I've already mentioned, and on one occasion on the road from Borike to

14     Rogatica, in that village Radenko Bjelakovic and his daughter Sonja were

15     ambushed and killed.  Sonja's mother, his wife, survived, and these

16     terrorists, if I can call them that, these Muslims who had ambushed them

17     and who killed Radenko and Sonja told the mother, "Bitch, we're not going

18     to touch you.  We're going to leave you alive so that you could suffer

19     for the rest of your life."

20             The relations between the Serb and Muslim population remained

21     good, so these inter-human relations were not disturbed to such an extent

22     by this incident.  But Asim Hodzic once personally asked that somebody

23     come to his village because he noticed that near his village there were

24     armed persons that were noticed, one or two, and then from the brigade

25     command I think Commander Ranko Kusic went there, I can't remember who

Page 29574

 1     went from the municipality to talk to the general, and then the general

 2     asked to have the village searched to see whether somebody had planted

 3     some weapons there.  Then in some shed some weapons were found, a hunting

 4     rifle and also a shorter rifle -- I don't know.  And other things.  Soon

 5     after that, probably because of all of these things that had happened,

 6     the general got sick and he asked to leave his village.  We used our own

 7     car to take the general to the border with Serbia and from there he was

 8     taken to the military medical academy.

 9             The population stayed on there for a little while but they were

10     afraid of Muslim extremists, they were afraid that they would be attacked

11     again, and that armed groups would come in, again.  They asked the Serb

12     authorities, the civilian Serb authorities, they said that they wanted to

13     leave their place of residence and they took buses --

14        Q.   Sir, we -- we do have some time limitations.  I would ask if you

15     could somehow briefly summarise whether the loyal ethnic Muslim villages

16     that we discussed ended up staying in Rogatica or what happened to them.

17     A little bit more briefer than this description of the one village.

18        A.   Well, these villages did not stay in Rogatica for a long time.

19     They were -- they asked our authorities for transportation.  They wanted

20     to leave.  They were afraid that the Muslims would threaten them because

21     they lived as good neighbours with the Serbs and they asked to leave

22     these villages.  That was made possible for them, and they went to places

23     that were under the control of the BH Army.

24        Q.   Okay.  Sir, thank you --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, I don't think that the answer

Page 29575

 1     responded to the question you have put.  I thought you were asking about

 2     the Muslim population in these villages and not about the Serbs, who were

 3     then leaving.

 4             Please clarify it.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  If I can have direction, Your Honours.  I don't see

 6     where his answer talks about Serbs leaving.  His answer talks about the

 7     Muslims leaving.  Because they were good neighbours with the Serbs.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see:  "They wanted to leave.  They were afraid

 9     that the Muslims would threaten them..."

10             MR. IVETIC:  Because -- [Overlapping speakers]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "... because they lived as good neighbours with

12     the Serbs..."

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  So it relates to the Muslims.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Then I understood it.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Perhaps just so that we're clear, you've heard the Judge's

17     inquiry, Mr. Lelek.  Are you talking about the -- who are you talking

18     about that was leaving from these loyal Muslim villages that were afraid

19     that the -- that they would be attacked for being good neighbours with

20     the Serbs?

21        A.   Well, that goes for all the loyal Muslim villages.

22        Q.   Okay.  And who -- what population within the loyal Muslim

23     villages was leaving?  What ethnic group?

24        A.   Well, of course they were Muslims.  Muslims lived in Muslim

25     villages.  These were loyal villages.  So it was Muslims who were living

Page 29576

 1     in these villages.  But they were on good terms with the Serb villages

 2     that were nearby, that were near those Muslim villages.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Sir, thank you for answering my questions.  On behalf of

 4     my client General Mladic and the rest of the team, I thank you.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes the direct examination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 7             Before I invite the Prosecution to start its cross-examination, I

 8     have one question.

 9             Were those who had attacked General Hodzic and his daughter and

10     killed his daughter, were the perpetrators found and arrested?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Then you

12     misunderstood what I was saying.  I did not say here that the general was

13     attacked and killed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think my question was about the daughter

15     having been killed.  But then still, my question is:  Were the

16     perpetrators found and arrested?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you understand what

18     I'm saying.  I said that Muslim extremists on the road between Rogatica

19     and Borike killed Radenko Bjelakovic and his daughter Sonja, and they --

20     and that they didn't want to kill her mother.  They let her live so that

21     she would suffer for the rest of her life.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And my question is:  What you said were Muslim

23     extremists, were they caught, were they identified?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.  They were never caught and

25     no one knows who did that.

Page 29577

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lelek, you'll now be cross-examined by

 5     Mr. MacDonald.  You find Mr. MacDonald to your right.  Mr. MacDonald is

 6     counsel for the Prosecution.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:

 8        Q.   Mr. Lelek, on the topic of this attack, you mentioned the name of

 9     a village.  Can you repeat the name of that village slowly, please.

10        A.   I didn't understand you.  What attack?

11        Q.   You spoke with the Presiding Judge about an attack that killed a

12     father and daughter and left the mother alive.  You mentioned the name of

13     a village with that attack.  It was not recorded on the transcript.  Can

14     you repeat the name of that village slowly, please.

15        A.   Satorovici is the name of the village.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Lelek, you testified as a witness in the Karadzic

17     case; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You gave a statement to the Karadzic Defence, and you were

20     telling the truth when you gave that statement, weren't you?

21        A.   Under oath, just like now.

22        Q.   And with regard to the statement you gave in this case, the

23     Mladic case, you've had the opportunity to review it and make any

24     corrections for the entire statement; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29578

 1        Q.   I'd like to have a quick look at your Karadzic statement, sir.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

 3     31469 on the screen, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be provided with a bit of ...

 5     could the glass be filled again.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   I'd like to discuss the incorporation of the Rogatica Brigade

 9     into the VRS.  Now, in your Karadzic statement at paragraph 15 --

10             MR. MacDONALD:  Which is page 4 in the English and page 3 in the

11     B/C/S.

12        Q.   Now, here in the first line, you state:

13             "In May 1992, when the VRS was formed, the TO unit was reformed

14     into the 1st Drina Light Infantry Brigade, and we used the shorter term,

15     Rogatica Brigade, to referred to it."

16             Now what you said there in your Karadzic statement, that's --

17     that's true, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'd now like to look at your Mladic statement, paragraph 14,

20     page 4 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is D849.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             Now, just to repeat:  Page 4 in both language, please.

24        Q.   In the first line here, you state:

25             "After the VRS was established, the existing unit was transformed

Page 29579

 1     over time into the 1st Drina Light Brigade, which was called the

 2     Rogatica Brigade for short."

 3             The existing unit you refer to here, that's the Rogatica Serb TO,

 4     isn't it?

 5        A.   First it was the Territorial Defence, that's for sure.

 6        Q.   And, sir, the words "in May 1992," which you gave in your

 7     Karadzic statement, don't appear in your Mladic statement.  In fact,

 8     you've added that it was transformed over time.  What's the reason for

 9     that change, sir?

10        A.   I don't see any change here.

11        Q.   Well, you'd agree with me the words "in May 1992" don't appear,

12     do they?

13        A.   Well, I thought it wasn't necessary here for me to say May after

14     the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska.  And it is well-known

15     that the army was established in May, and therefore I saw no need to

16     mention it.

17        Q.   Very well.  You're happy that your Mladic statement means that

18     the TO unit, the Serb TO unit in Rogatica, became the Rogatica Brigade

19     when the VRS was established?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   The Rogatica Brigade was subordinated to the

22     Sarajevo Romanija Corps in May 1992, wasn't it?

23        A.   In May 1992, no, it wasn't under the Sarajevo Romanija Corps yet.

24     And not the Main Staff of the VRS either.

25        Q.   Well, your commander is Rajko Kusic; that's right?

Page 29580

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   He's reporting to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps by at least the

 3     29th of May, 1992, isn't he?

 4        A.   I know it wasn't at first, those first few days.  When I arrived

 5     Borike, I know that the first report that I saw that was written was the

 6     23rd of May, 1992.  Because we sent that document to the commander of the

 7     TO of Sokolac and the Supreme Command of the Serb Republic of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We didn't sent it to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps or

 9     the Main Staff.  So I know at first in the beginning we didn't send those

10     combat reports there, Territorial Defence.  Not the Sarajevo Romanija

11     Corps, not the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I don't know

12     exactly when it was that we started sending them to them.  I mean,

13     regular combat reports and other documents that are supposed to be sent

14     to them.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P03907.

16        Q.   Sir, this is an intelligence report from Rajko Kusic to the

17     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  It is dated 29th May 1992.  If you can just

18     read the date to whom it is being sent and who is sending it, you'll

19     agree with me that's correct; isn't it?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

21     witness.  Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please speak into the microphone

23     and repeat your answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then I cannot see this thing

25     well.  I mean, the letters are so small and then if I speak into the

Page 29581

 1     microphone, I cannot read what is written here.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjust the microphone so that the problem will

 3     be resolved.

 4             And perhaps could it be even a bit enlarged, especially the upper

 5     part.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  It can be seen here the

 7     29th of May, 1992, a regular operations report sent to the

 8     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and what I claimed was that during the first few

 9     days when I arrived there, that reports were sent to the

10     Territorial Defence, that we were not within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

11     or the Army of Republika Srpska.  During the first few day, that is.

12             MR. MacDONALD:

13        Q.   When exactly did you arrive in Borike, Mr. Lelek?

14        A.   I arrived Borike - I cannot remember the exact date - but it was

15     around the 18th, 19th, that's to say, the second half of May.

16        Q.   If I can direct your attention to the last line of the document

17     in front of you, before it says Commander Rajko Kusic, he notes:

18             "Problems, proposals, and requests - as in previous report."

19             So it's clear that your commander has been reporting to the

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps even before the 29th of May; correct?

21        A.   I don't know about that.  I did not see those reports.  I don't

22     know what kind of reports these are.  I'm just saying that I saw one on

23     the 23rd of May that was submitted to the Territorial Defence of Sokolac.

24     The 23rd of May, 1992.

25        Q.   Well, sir, I'll ask my original question again then:  Do you

Page 29582

 1     accept that the Rogatica Brigade was subordinated to the

 2     Sarajevo Romanija Corps by at least the 29th of May, 1992, having seen

 3     this document?

 4        A.   Well, according to this document, yes.  According to this

 5     document, yes, but I cannot remember exactly when --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

 7     end of the sentence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your sentence.

 9     You said but you cannot remember exactly when, and would you then repeat

10     what you then said?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember the exact date

12     when our brigade became part of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I see that

13     this regular combat report was indeed sent to the

14     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I don't know whether our brigade was part of it

15     at the time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I -- I fully understand that.  But if you

17     say I don't know whether our brigade was part of it at that time, may I

18     remind you that in one of the previous answers you said it was not yet in

19     May; where now, you say you do not know exactly.  You know about the

20     first days.  And you accept that late May that they were.  So you should

21     be very precise in your answers.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. MacDONALD:

24        Q.   Mr. Lelek, you yourself were incorporated into the VRS on the

25     20th of May, 1992, weren't you?

Page 29583

 1        A.   I was.  On the 20th of May, I was in the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska.  Actually, I was in the Territorial Defence, not the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska.  The Territorial Defence.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P06815.

 5        Q.   This is a list of officers from the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry

 6     Brigade being sent by Rajko Kusic to the Drina Corps Command.  For the

 7     sake of clarity, the Rogatica Brigade was renamed to the Podrinje Brigade

 8     in August of 1992, wasn't it?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember the exact date.

10        Q.   You may not remember the date but you do know that at some point

11     the Rogatica Brigade was renamed to the Podrinje Brigade; correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  If we go to page 3 in both languages -- I wonder,

14     Your Honours, if we might just use the B/C/S here.  That's what we did

15     when the document was admitted.  It's simply the headings that have to be

16     translated, and I'll ask the witness to confirm.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.

18             MR. MacDONALD:

19        Q.   Mr. Lelek, can you confirm you see your name appears second on

20     this list?

21        A.   I see that.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we can move to the right, please.  It's

23     the ninth column, but we'll recognise it by the date, 25/1992.  Yes, if

24     we can stop there, please.

25        Q.   Mr. Lelek, you see a date, 20.05.92 --

Page 29584

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What's the title of that column?

 3        A.   "Date of Joining the VRS."  But most probably that's what the

 4     form was like.  There was no column that had date of joining the

 5     Territorial Defence printed out.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'll move on.  Mr. Lelek, when you joined you became

 7     assistant commander for training and operations; correct?

 8        A.   I became assistant Chief of Staff for education, not assistant

 9     commander.  I was assistant Chief of Staff for training and operations.

10     That was the exact title of my position.

11        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  You say in your Mladic

12     statement at paragraph 9 --

13             MR. MacDONALD:  I don't believe we need to call it up, though.

14        Q.   -- that after you arrive in Borike that part of the command went

15     to Rogatica, firstly to the Sladara facility.  When did part of the

16     command move?

17        A.   I can't remember the exact date when that happened.  Perhaps a

18     month or two after I arrived they were moved to Sladara, but they came to

19     Borike as well.  But they spent most of the time in Sladara which was the

20     new command post.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  I have a few more questions on this topic,

22     Your Honour.  Probably finish in three or four minutes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's three or four minutes, I'll let you finish

24     this topic and then we'll take the break.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 29585

 1        Q.   Prior to the command moving, it remained in Borike; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   A part of the command.  Borike was the forward command post.  I

 4     was there as the assistant commander for training and operations, and

 5     there were two or three other officers who assisted me.  Most of the

 6     command went to Rogatica, including the commander, the -- the chief of

 7     staff for training, operations, the chief of staff.  They went to

 8     Rogatica and I remained in the forward command post in order to secure

 9     the area and prevent Muslim forces attacks from the direction of Zepa.

10        Q.   Prior to it moving, did your commander, Rajko Kusic, and the

11     Chief of Staff, Mile Ujic, did they remain in Borike prior to the command

12     moving to Rogatica?

13        A.   They were in Borike until the moment the command was moved to

14     Rogatica.  Obviously they were in Borika.  Of course.

15        Q.   Rajko Kusic and Mile Ujic met General Ratko Mladic on the 30th of

16     May, 1992, didn't they?

17        A.   I don't know that.

18        Q.   Well, on the 30th of May, 1992, they're in Borike, you're in

19     Borike, and you're an assistant chief in this brigade.  How is it you

20     don't know what your commander and the chief of staff are doing,

21     particularly when they are meeting the commander of the entire VRS?

22        A.   I must have been on the defence line at that time.  Perhaps I was

23     not there.  I was not at the command post.  I was on the line where I

24     inspected the troops who were there.  And the brigade commander was not

25     duty-bound to tell me everything.  He had his chief of staff, and unless

Page 29586

 1     the entire command of the brigade had to be present, he did not have to

 2     tell me.  I'm sure that whatever was discussed was not of such an

 3     importance that the whole command staff had to be there.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  This will be my last question before the break,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But your answers -- -- you say you didn't

 7     know.  No one told you when you returned from the front line that

 8     General Mladic had visited the command?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is:  Whether no one, when you returned

11     from the front line, told you that General Mladic had visited the command

12     and had met with Kusic and his chief of staff.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody told me that at the time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             We'll take a break.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

16     courtroom.

17             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to enter the

23     courtroom, I briefly deal with P6965 which was admitted on the 2nd of

24     December through Witness Ratko Milojica, transcript page 29130.  During

25     the re-examination of the witness, the Defence raised an issue with the

Page 29587

 1     English translation of the document.  On the 4th of December, the

 2     Prosecution did send an e-mail to the Chamber to advise that the revised

 3     English translation of P6965 had been uploaded into e-court under

 4     doc ID 0206-3526-ET, and that the Defence had indicated that it had no

 5     objection to it.

 6             Madam Registrar, you're hereby instructed to replace the current

 7     translation of P6965 with the revised one with the doc ID I just read

 8     out; that is, 0206-3526-ET.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  As always I take it that when the Prosecution

11     reports that there are no objections by the Defence that there are no

12     objections.  If there be would, however, any problem, we'd like to hear

13     within the next 48 hours.

14             Mr. MacDonald, you may proceed.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Before I restart my questioning, Your Honours,

16     just one matter from before the break.  The basis of the question that

17     General Mladic met with the chief of staff and deputy chief of staff

18     comes from General Mladic's diary.  There is no location recorded for

19     that meeting, Your Honour.  I just wanted to put that on the record.

20             MR. IVETIC:  There are also two other documents referencing that

21     General Mladic met with General Wahlgren and Colonel Wilson, that's P332

22     and 65 ter number 10624, so the Defence's position:  It was not in

23     Rogatica.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Positions are clear.  Please proceed.

25             MR. MacDONALD:

Page 29588

 1        Q.   Mr. Lelek, before I move on from this topic, you mentioned a

 2     report being sent by Rajko Kusic to the Sokolac TO and the

 3     Supreme Command of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 23rd of

 4     May, 1992.  Do you know by the words "Supreme Command of Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina" who Rajko Kusic was sending that report to?

 6        A.   To the Supreme Command of the Army of the Serbian Republic of

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina, I think.  I believe that it was sent to

 8     Mr. Karadzic.

 9        Q.   Now, finally, I'd like to look at your Mladic statement, D849.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  I would like to go to page 3 in both languages.

11        Q.   In your first line you describe reporting in late May 1992.  You

12     describe what you did until 1994.  And in your last line, you state --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of which paragraph?

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Paragraph 8, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15        Q.   In your last line, you state:

16             "I know that in the initial period at that time we were in no

17     manner connected to the corps or the VRS Main Staff."

18             Given your evidence today, for the sake of clarity, that initial

19     period must be no more than a few days; is that right?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   I'll move to a different topic.  If we can please have your

22     Karadzic statement on the screen.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  That's 65 ter number 31469.  And if I can have

24     paragraph 13 in both languages.

25        Q.   Sir, paragraph 13 reads:

Page 29589

 1             "All this time we maintained courier, telephone, and radio

 2     contact with the main part of the command in Rogatica, and we sent daily

 3     combat reports on the developments in this area.  At the beginning of

 4     1994, I and the other officers with me in Borike were pulled back to

 5     Rogatica, where I was appointed Chief of Staff of the brigade."

 6             Now by the words "all this time," you're referring to a period

 7     from the end of May 1992 until your appointment as chief of staff;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what you say here in your Karadzic statement, that's true,

11     isn't it, you did have these communications?

12        A.   You mean with the brigade command in Rogatica?

13        Q.   I mean, sir -- or the question is:  What I've just read you, that

14     is true, isn't it?

15        A.   We, in Borike, could communicate with Rogatica.

16        Q.   And you also sent daily combat reports about developments in the

17     area, didn't you?

18        A.   I'm not sure that it was daily, but we did send reports,

19     especially on special events.  If nothing happened on a particular day,

20     on that day we did not send a report.

21        Q.   Well, sir, in your Karadzic statement it said you sent daily

22     combat reports.  Is that true?

23        A.   If that's what I said, then it must be true.

24        Q.   What I read to you from your Karadzic statement, the entirety of

25     paragraph 13, none of that appears in your Mladic statement, sir.  Is

Page 29590

 1     there any reason you did not mention these communications and these daily

 2     combat reports to the Mladic Defence team?

 3        A.   I don't think that there was a need for that.  It's a well-known

 4     fact that combat reports were sent.  We received combat reports from

 5     battalion commands.  Then we amalgamated them into one report and sent

 6     that to our superior command.  I did not think that it was necessary to

 7     emphasise that in my statement for the general.

 8        Q.   So your evidence is that it's a well-known fact that combat

 9     reports were sent.  Is it equally a well-known fact that communications

10     were working and that you had these communications?

11             MR. IVETIC:  I object to the question.  It's vague as stated.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me re-read it.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Communications with whom?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  As well -- with ...

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well-known facts, Mr. MacDonald, are not the type of

17     facts we are seeking, we are always seeking.  So would be please be more

18     concrete.

19             Yes, I know that the witness said that it's a well-known fact,

20     but I've heard many witnesses say what are well-known facts.  Could you

21     please try to focus specifically on what the witness can tell us.  So

22     would you rephrase your question.

23             MR. MacDONALD:

24        Q.   Mr. Lelek, it isn't the case that you did not mention this

25     paragraph because you knew you were testifying on behalf or in the case

Page 29591

 1     against General Mladic, is it?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Object to the question.  On the bases that:  First

 3     of all, it misstates the witness's testimony and is not a restatement, as

 4     Your Honours had indicated of the previous question.  It's unrelated to

 5     the previous question and it's --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I thought it was a new question.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that Mr. MacDonald was putting to the witness.

 9             Mr. MacDonald, it was not a rephrasement.  I mean, if you

10     withdraw a question, that's -- Mr. MacDonald is entitled to do so and put

11     a new question to the witness, so that objection is denied.

12             Would you please put the same or another question to the witness.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, to be clear, that's -- the last

14     question it is where I am going with this line of questioning, as it

15     were.  So perhaps I can just put that to him.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please then put it again to the witness because he

17     may have forgotten what the question exactly was.

18             MR. MacDONALD:

19        Q.   Mr. Lelek, is it the case that you did not mention the fact of

20     daily combat reports and communications working within your brigade

21     because you were aware that this case is against General Mladic?

22        A.   No, not true.  If this was not the General Mladic case, you would

23     not put that question as well perhaps.  Because this is a well-known

24     fact --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.  It is

Page 29592

 1     impossible to interpret correctly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness, you're talking too fast.

 3     We'll lose your words which we'd rather not do.  So could you please

 4     resume from where you said:

 5             "Because this is a well-known fact ..."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to start his

 7     answer from the beginning because it was impossible to understand the

 8     gist of the answer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're invited even to start the answer again

10     on from the beginning.  The question was about that you had not mentioned

11     this because you gave a statement in the case against Mr. Mladic.  Would

12     you please start your answer again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as this question is

14     concerned, it is not correct that I omitted the question.  I did not omit

15     it.  Especially not because I'm testifying in the Mladic case, because I

16     thought that that question was a well-known question.  It is a well-known

17     fact that regular combat reports are sent by the battalion commands to

18     the brigade command, and that then the brigade command sends its regular

19     combat reports to the superior command which is the corps command.

20     That's why I did not feel the need to highlight this question in my

21     statement, not only because it was the General Mladic case.  Even if a

22     case was against some other general or colonel, I would still not mention

23     this question at all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So there's no change whatsoever so that daily

25     reports were sent and communications were functioning, although you

Page 29593

 1     didn't think it important to mention it again.  Is that the situation?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we move to paragraph 15 of the statement.  I

 5     think I need page 4 in both languages.

 6        Q.   I'm going to read you a sentence, Mr. Lelek.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  In B/C/S, I believe it begins with the word

 8     "naoruzani" and in English it is six lines from the bottom, beginning:

 9     "We were armed ..."

10        Q.   It reads:

11             "We were armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had

12     until then been kept in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad."

13             And it's true that you were armed with weapons that were

14     previously in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad; correct?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  This has been referenced as the

17     Karadzic statement.  However, I just now realised that the translation

18     that's being used is not the official translation, it's a draft

19     translation, not the one that was introduced into evidence which I see

20     and hold in my hand is a CLSS translation and which has different page

21     numbers.  So I just wanted to make clear that the document that's being

22     used by the Prosecution is not the Karadzic statement that was introduced

23     into evidence in the Karadzic case.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now let me just ... paragraph 15 of this

25     statement.  Which statement were you referring to?

Page 29594

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  The Karadzic statement, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Karadzic statement.  Yes.  Which is on the screen.

 3             And, Mr. Ivetic, you said it's the wrong translation used or?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I see on the screen it

 5     says "draft translation."  The official translation done by CLSS is

 6     page 3 and this is page 4, so --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But which one was admitted in the Karadzic case, the

 8     official translation.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  This one.  That's what I'm holding in my hand.  It's

10     in e-court as 1D04363.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, I do not know where you found this

12     translation and why you used that rather than the one which was admitted

13     in the Karadzic case, but I don't know how important and how relevant the

14     differences in translation are, but ...

15             Do you have the -- the one, Mr. Ivetic is referring to?  That

16     translation.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  I am certain it can be called up, Your Honours.

18     I had understood this one to be the one in the Karadzic case.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But apparently it's not.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  But apparently it's not.  I wonder if we could

21     call up in e-court that I missed there or my friend has referred to.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If that can be shown on the screen, then we

23     can move on.  And if it's -- is it just page numbering or is there any

24     difference in the translation, Mr. Ivetic?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I haven't had a chance to look at the translations

Page 29595

 1     in detail to compare the two, but I know this the one that was introduced

 2     into evidence and this is -- and is indeed that we put in e-court.  It

 3     should on page 3 in the English that this paragraph is located.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It is paragraph 15, I do understand.

 5             Mr. MacDonald, you have prepared your questions so I take it that

 6     in your glance you could -- would be able to see whether anything there's

 7     which --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- would bother you having used a different

10     translation while preparing.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  It is the same certainly in English,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please move on --

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with this -- with your questions in relation to

16     paragraph 15.

17             MR. MacDONALD:

18        Q.   I'm going to read you out this sentence, Mr. Lelek.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  As I said previously, in the B/C/S I believe it's

20     the line beginning "naoruzani."

21        Q.   And it reads:

22             "We were armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had

23     until then been kept in the JNA depots in Uzamnica and Visegrad."

24             And my question is:  It's true that you were armed with weapons

25     that had been kept previously in those JNA depots, isn't it.

Page 29596

 1        A.   It is not construct in Uzamnica and Visegrad.  What is correct --

 2     what is correct is Visegrad.  Here it says Uzamnica near Visegrad.  So

 3     these are two different things.  It is not Uzamnica and Visegrad but

 4     Uzamnica is close to Visegrad.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So there's a JNA depot at Uzamnica which is near Visegrad.

 6     Again, were you armed with weapons of the former Rogatica TO that had

 7     until then been kept in that depot?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, in the next line, you say you're unaware that the JNA armed

10     Serbs in Rogatica.  If we could have your Mladic statement, please.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Which is D849, at -- I would look for

12     paragraph 14, which is page 4 in both languages.

13        Q.   The last line in this paragraph is similar, that you were unaware

14     that the JNA armed the Serbs in Rogatica.  However, the part about being

15     armed with weapons that had until then been kept in a JNA depot does not

16     appear.  Why did you not mention that to the Mladic Defence team?

17        A.   I made a mistake by omitting it.  It's just an error because I

18     said everything else here.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness is reading

20     very fast.  We don't know from where.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, again, you should slow down,

22     especially when you're reading.  You said it was an error because

23     everything else here, and then you started reading what is in the

24     document which also appears in the Mladic statement.  Is that correctly

25     understood?

Page 29597

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here is that I do

 2     not know that the JNA armed Serbs in Rogatica, because our pre-war

 3     Territorial Defence of Rogatica had standard-issue weapons for over

 4     500 -- actually, 1500 persons.  So the only thing I omitted here is that

 5     these weapons of ours were kept in Uzamnica near Visegrad.  That's the

 6     only thing that I omitted to mention.  Everything else is there and

 7     everything else is correct except for Uzamnica near Visegrad.  So I just

 8     made an error in not mentioning Uzamnica near Visegrad, that our weapons

 9     were kept there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there's a little bit more.  But could I ask

11     you a few questions about that statement taking.

12             The text, indeed, if I quickly look at it from your Karadzic

13     statement and the Mladic statement, is almost literally the same.  You

14     said you made a mistake when you did not mention this specific -- the JNA

15     depots.  Did you work on the basis of your Karadzic statement when you

16     were interviewed?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That statement was mentioned to me.

18     I tried to say everything I said there over here as well, but then this

19     error slipped in, that I didn't mention Uzamnica near Visegrad, and it is

20     well-known that in 1991 when the army came and --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you are going beyond what I asked you.

22             Now you said -- does it mean that you gave that statement

23     spontaneously when it was mentioned, or was it shown to you, that old

24     statement?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no, I had the statement.  I had

Page 29598

 1     the statement and I read it several times.  After the lawyers -- or

 2     rather, before the lawyers from General Ratko Mladic's Defence came, and

 3     I tried to avoid any differences between the two but then things slip in.

 4     But I really don't see that there's any problem here.  I mean, that I

 5     didn't mention Uzamnica.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to worry about whether there are any

 7     problems.

 8             Earlier you said when we were talking about the daily reports

 9     that you considered it not of such importance that you should repeat it

10     where it was commonly known that daily reports were sent.

11             Now, there again we see that the two statements are very similar

12     in language but there is a difference.

13             Now, who then decided that it was not important to repeat that?

14     Did you do that or was this suggested by those who interviewed you, that

15     it was not important?  Could you tell us?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I decided that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You decided that.  Was it your own idea that

18     it was not important?  You suggested that and then decided that, or was

19     it suggested to you and that you then decided to leave it out?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have trouble hearing

21     the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you re-start your answer and talk

23     more slowly so that the interpreters can tell us your words.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all other microphones be switched off

25     when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

Page 29599

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought - and that's what I

 2     suggested - that it wasn't really that important to have this included in

 3     the statement, the sending of combat reports, because I thought that this

 4     was well known, that combat reports are being sent, so that that was not

 5     necessary.

 6             As for this thing here, Uzamnica, I forgot to mention that --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- well, apparently you were working on the

 8     basis of the old statement, and then you made a suggestion that -- that

 9     portion about the daily reports could be left out because you considered

10     it not to be important.  That was your own suggestion.  Is that well

11     understood?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, apparently you have thought over quite

14     carefully what was needed to be repeated and what was not needed to be

15     repeated.  Now, in relation to the JNA depots from where the TO

16     received -- the depots kept by the JNA, was that similarly that you

17     thought that there was no need to tell that, or was it suggested to you

18     or is it just -- just a mistake?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a mistake.  I forgot to

20     mention this place, Uzamnica.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But you worked on the basis of the old statement.

22     The remainder of that paragraph is literally the same - almost literally

23     the same, I should say - as we find it in the old statement.  If you're

24     working like that, does that mean that you repeated every sentence of

25     that old statement and that it was then recorded again as what you said

Page 29600

 1     then, or did you go through it and say, This should be changed, that is

 2     relevant, this is not relevant?  Could you explain to us a bit more in

 3     detail how that worked and specifically on the part you said you'd

 4     forgotten.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We worked on the basis of the old

 6     statement, and I made an effort to say everything I said in

 7     President Karadzic's statement, because I spoke under oath then as well.

 8     I wanted it to be similar to the statement I'm giving to General Mladic.

 9     So everything is the same here expect for Uzamnica, that was not

10     mentioned.  That was an error.  When I spoke for this statement to be

11     written up, I simply forgot this.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now no one told you, since we're working

13     on the basis of the old statement, haven't you forgotten something?

14     Because there's a line in the old statement which you didn't repeat.  Did

15     no one bring this to your attention, that just a line was missing?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nobody.  They probably didn't

17     notice it then either.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we move to paragraph 19 in the Karadzic

21     statement, please, which I think is the next page in both languages.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Paragraph 19, Mr. Court Officer.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see any of this.  Can it be

24     enlarged a bit?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The beginning of paragraph 19 or the end?

Page 29601

 1     Because it's not identical at the moment on the screen.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour, and that's my fault.  Sorry.

 3     It should be the beginning of paragraph 19, so the previous page in the

 4     English, please.

 5             Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Lelek, the first line here reads:

 7             "I knew that there was a military detention facility was in

 8     Rasadnik."

 9             Now what you've said here in your Karadzic statement, that's

10     true, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can move to the Mladic statement, please.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  D849.

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             It's paragraph 17 which I think is page 5 in the English, page 4

16     in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   The first line here, sir, reads:

18             "I am aware that a detention facility existed at Rasadnik ..."

19             Now the word "military" has been removed here, hasn't it?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I'm trying to see where the word "military" arises.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's in the Karadzic statement?  Could we have

23     that -- we just had it but it's not visible at this moment.

24             Could you repeat the number so that I can -- because we, of

25     course, can consult it also on our own system.  Could you repeat the

Page 29602

 1     number, Mr. --

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Well, the number of the Karadzic statement is

 3     1D04363.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  And it's paragraph 19, the first line,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we have a look at it because my legal

 8     page is not on my computer at this moment, so I have some difficulties in

 9     having access to it, but ...

10             MR. MacDONALD:  And one page back in the English.  It is the

11     first line of paragraph 19.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you see it?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, very well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The description is military detention facility or

15     detention facility.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.  I was looking at the English of the --

17     what I thought was the Karadzic but was actually the Mladic that was on

18     the screen, so I was --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

20             MR. IVETIC:  -- mistaken between the two.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think there is no translation issue

22     here.  I see the word "vojni" in the B/C/S first sentence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can go back to the Mladic statement, that's

25     D849, page 5 in the English, page 4 in the B/C/S.

Page 29603

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may put your question because everybody has

 2     seen it and the witness has the hard copy in his hands.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  I thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lelek, the word "military" which appears in the Karadzic

 5     statement has been taken out of the Mladic statement, hasn't it?

 6        A.   That's right.  The word "military" is not there.  But further

 7     down you can see that soldiers were being detained.  It even says

 8     soldiers of Serb ethnicity.  So I believe that this is an error.  Since

 9     there's a war going on, of course it's military.  I cannot see what the

10     issue is.

11             Could you just enlarge this a bit up here because I cannot see it

12     properly?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question.

14     Mr. MacDonald will now put his next question to you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we are, at the moment, not on the Mladic

16     statement but the Karadzic statement again.  But I think you should move

17     on.

18             MR. MacDONALD:

19        Q.   Mr. Lelek, I'm going to put to you that in fact these changes or

20     omissions to your Mladic statement are an effort to minimise the

21     involvement of the VRS and the accused in this case in the events in the

22     municipality of Rogatica.  Do you have any comment on that, sir?

23        A.   That is not true.

24        Q.   I'll turn to the topic of Rasadnik and the situation there.

25             In your statement you say you visited Rasadnik and you saw some

Page 29604

 1     people there; that's correct, isn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You gave an interview to the police in Rogatica on the 17th of

 4     June, 2004; is that correct?

 5        A.   I cannot remember the exact date.  Could I have that document

 6     here now, if you have it?  I don't have the exact date when it was that I

 7     was interviewed.  Could I have that document on the screen?

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

 9     31403.

10        Q.   Now, this is a record of that interview, Mr. Lelek.  I'm going to

11     read a part out for you.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  In the B/C/S, it begins in the middle of the

13     paragraph just after the letters BPC.  In the English, it is at the top

14     of page 2.

15             MR. IVETIC:  If I can intervene, I note that the -- my learned

16     friend is being misled by the incorrect translation of the title of the

17     document which is, in B/C/S, "Sluzbena Zabiljeska," "Official Note" not

18     "Official Record."

19             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm very grateful to my friend for his

20     clarification, although I don't think it will affect my

21     cross-examination, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.  And take care that the right

23     translation will be uploaded.

24             MR. MacDONALD:

25        Q.   Mr. Lelek, the sentence reads:

Page 29605

 1             "He also did not know anything about the activities of

 2     establishing collection centres in the territory of the municipality of

 3     Rogatica (Sladara, Rasadnik, Parohijski Dom, elementary school and

 4     secondary school) before he came to Borike in 1992 where the FCP (forward

 5     command post) of the Rogatica Brigade was located in the hotel.  He heard

 6     from some persons he did not know that there were collection centres in

 7     the town area, in the above-mentioned facilities, where citizens of

 8     Bosniak nationality were kept and from where they were later transported

 9     by buses to the territory under the Army of BiH control.

10             "He also said that did he not know that the persons in the

11     collection centres were mistreated or tortured in any way.  During the

12     time the above-mentioned centres existed, he did not come into the areas

13     where they were located."

14             Mr. Lelek, was that the truth that you told the police, that you

15     did not come into the areas where these centres, which include Rasadnik,

16     were located?

17        A.   I don't remember the exact date, but I see the date here when I

18     gave this statement.  It wasn't a statement.  It was an Official Note by

19     an official at the Ministry of Interior.  The duration of this short

20     statement that I gave to him, he asked four or five questions, he asked

21     me whether I knew when the Crisis Staffs were established and I said I

22     don't know, then he asked me:  Do you know that there were collection

23     centres, and then I said I heard about that when I arrived in Borike.

24     Then do you know about these supplies, and I said, no, I never entered

25     these facilities.  So when he asked me whether I knew there was torture,

Page 29606

 1     whether people at the collection centres were being abused, and I said I

 2     don't know, I never entered these facilities.

 3             This went on for four or five minutes.  He compiled an

 4     Official Note.  Beforehand, I never had an opportunity to read this until

 5     the trial of President Radovan Karadzic.  And everything that is written

 6     here is not the way I had said it.  He added --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand what.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, again the interpreters are unable

10     to hear you.  So would you please slowly conclude your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this employee of the Ministry

12     of Interior, from Rogatica, asked me whether I knew that there were some

13     torture over persons who were in collection centres, I said that I did

14     not know because I did not enter these facilities, these centres.

15             I see that what he wrote here is that I had stated that I did not

16     go to the area of these locations.

17             Let me tell you one more thing.  You see here that --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, wait for the next question.

19             Please proceed.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But then -- Mr. Orie, it has to do

21     with this --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I have to clarify why this note

24     is not meritorious for me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The only question that was put to you is whether, in

Page 29607

 1     the relation to specifically entering those facilities, whether you told

 2     them the truth or not.  And I think you've told us now two or three times

 3     that when asked about awareness of persons being tortured there, that you

 4     were not aware because you never entered those facilities.  And in that

 5     respect, you've answered the question.  Mr. MacDonald will now put his

 6     next question to you.

 7             Mr. MacDonald.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:

 9        Q.   I'd like to move onto the substance of Rasadnik --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before we do so, you said several times that

11     you did not -- that you told them that you had not entered these

12     facilities, whereas in your statement we read that you visited persons

13     detained in Rasadnik several times.  There seems to be a contradiction.

14     Do you have an explanation for that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not enter those

16     facilities, but I did come to the location of these facilities; that is

17     to say, I came to Rasadnik where the military detention facility was but

18     I did not go in.  If I needed one of our soldiers who had escaped from

19     the front line or who had done something, I asked the security detail

20     there to get that soldier out for me, but I did not enter the detention

21     facility itself.  Also the collection centres, I never entered them in

22     Rasadnik or in the secondary school.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Just then for my understanding, those who were

24     detained there and you wanted to interview, they were taken out, outside

25     the building, and then you interviewed them in the open air or -- I'm

Page 29608

 1     just trying to understand exactly what it is that you're telling us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  For example, if NN left the

 3     front line arbitrarily and I know that is he in the military remand

 4     prison, I would get there and I would ask the guard, Get NN to come out

 5     in front of the prison.  And there was a table there, and I sat there and

 6     I talked to him about what it was that I wanted to talk about.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did they also bring the Muslims you saw

 8     there out of the building and to be seated at that table?  Because you

 9     say that, I also saw some Muslims whom I knew from before, talking about

10     Rasadnik.  Were they also taken out?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went there, I saw two or

12     three Muslims that I knew walking around.  I, however, spoke to the

13     Serbian soldier.  I never spoke to any of the Muslim soldiers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But I do understand that this was a detention

15     facility.  Were the Muslim detainees walking freely outside of the

16     building?  I'm just trying to get a picture of what exactly was the

17     situation when you saw these Muslims.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you an example.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went there to hold that

21     conversation with a -- go ahead.  I don't know what I need to do.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if -- if the example you are giving me is an

23     answer to my question, you are invited to proceed.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is an answer to your

25     question.

Page 29609

 1             When I went there to interview one of our soldiers who had left

 2     the defence line, while I was sitting there, very close to me, some 5, 6,

 3     metres away from me, Sefik Murko was passing by.  He had been captured

 4     and he was in that detention area.  He passed by me, I saw him, I knew

 5     him from before.  I called his name, he approached me.  I asked him if he

 6     needed something, and then he said, Mico, that was my nickname, do you

 7     have cigarettes.  I would like to light a cigarette.  And I would like to

 8     ask you, my mother has already left together with the other civilians.

 9     Can you help my father as well.  I told him I'll do whatever I can.  You

10     just talk to me.  That was the conversation I held.  He was just

11     strolling around the detention facility.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lelek, a minute ago you said:

13             "I never spoke to any of the Muslim soldiers."

14             And now you are telling us that you spoke to this specific

15     Muslim, Sefik Malko.  Which one is correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not investigate

17     any of them because that was not my duty.  I did not try to find out why

18     they were in prison, why they had been captured.  I knew this particular

19     person.  I called his name, and I gave him cigarettes.  I just treated

20     him to cigarettes.  That's all.  He was my neighbour.  I knew him from

21     before.  In my previous answer, I meant any of the Muslim soldiers who

22     needed to be interviewed and investigated.  That was not my duty.  That's

23     why I never talked to any of them.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But this is not what you said.  You said, I never

25     spoke to a Muslim soldier.  I leave it to that.

Page 29610

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  I see we have one minute until the break,

 3     Your Honour.  I don't know if you wish to --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know what you are able to perform in

 5     one minute, but if you think it's better to wait until after the break,

 6     then we'll follow your suggestion.

 7             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes; quarter past

 8     12.00.  You may follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any time indication, Mr. MacDonald?

11             MR. MacDONALD:  I would estimate between 20 and 30 minutes,

12     Your Honours.  Hopefully 20.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me ...

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you stay within your time-limits.

16             We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

20     into the courtroom, I think that we had P6926 as a leftover.  New

21     translation as well?  I ...

22             Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have received a revised

24     English translation for 6926.  I can address that now quickly on the

25     record.

Page 29611

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you do it quickly, then...

 2             MR. TIEGER:  As the Court will recall, that document was admitted

 3     through Witness Sarenac on 18th November 2014, and that can be found at

 4     T 28514 through -17.  A translation error was brought to our attention,

 5     and you can see that reflected in 28544 through -45, on the 19th of

 6     November, 2014.  So the revised translation has been uploaded into the

 7     e-court.  It can be found under doc ID 0202-9875-ET.

 8             Assuming that if -- we have not spoken with the Defence about

 9     this yet, but if they have no objection to the revised translation, we

10     would request that the Court Officer be instructed to replace the current

11     translation with it.

12             Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We usually give an opportunity to revisit the matter

14     within 48 hours.

15             Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the English

16     declaration attached to P6926 by a new translation which is known under

17     number 0202-9875-ET.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, you may proceed.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Lelek, Muslim civilians who had not committed any crimes were

22     detained in Rasadnik, weren't they?

23        A.   No, they were not.  The civilians who had not committed crimes

24     were not detained.  They were just accommodated there.  They were not

25     kept there in detention.

Page 29612

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P06804.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lelek, this is a list from the Drina Corps Command dated

 3     1st of February, 1993.

 4             You'll see in the line above the list that the Drina Corps

 5     command are describing these people as prisoners.  Do you see that, sir?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should say "prisoners of war."

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution does not

 8     accept they're prisoner of war, but it was the prisoners that I was --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, but, if you put a document to a witness, you

10     can't say, I disagree with part of that and therefore I read only part of

11     that.  Mr. MacDonald, you are drawing the attention of the witness to

12     what is found in this document, and then you should read it in its

13     entirety.

14             Witness, could you please answer the question, whether you see

15     that the persons on this list are referred to as prisoners of war?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that that's what it says

17     here.  But this is perhaps because of the exchange.  Civilians could not

18     be exchanged.  Civilians could go of their own free will to the territory

19     under the control of the BiH Army.  This is most probably due to the fact

20     that they needed to be exchanged.  That's why they were referred to as

21     prisoners of war.  These were people were not prisoners of war.  I can

22     see that there were civilians among them.  I'm sure this is about some

23     exchange.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, where do you see the word "exchange"

25     in this document?

Page 29613

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my assumption because the

 2     civilians who were here have been --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me interrupt you.  You're not being asked

 4     about assumptions.  You're being asked about facts on this document,

 5     okay?  You're not asked to interpret the document.  You're asked to see

 6     what the document says.  I'm done.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   If I can you take to number 4, Hanua Kustura.  The date of birth

 9     recorded here is 1892.  So she would have been 101 at the time this list

10     was made; correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And you'll see her address as recorded as Jasenica next to year

13     of birth?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P06085S -- 6805,

16     my apologies.  6085 -- 6805, sorry.

17        Q.   This is a Drina Corps command sending a list to the

18     Eastern Bosnian command dated 10th of April, 1993.

19             And, at number 4, we see someone recorded as Hanuma Kustura but

20     with date of birth 1892 and the village given as Jasenica, don't we?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And this time this list is being described as a list of captured

23     persons of Muslim ethnicity.

24        A.   I still claim that this list contains a lot of civilians.  They

25     had not been captured.  My assumption is that there was going to be an

Page 29614

 1     exchange which is why they included civilians into the list.  I claim

 2     with full responsibility that this Hanuma Kustura was a civilian who

 3     was --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think in view of the age there could hardly

 5     be a lot of dispute about this to be not a soldier.  But assumptions is

 6     not what we are seeking.  If you have any knowledge -- and what

 7     Mr. MacDonald has done is to put to you a list dated the 1st of February,

 8     1993, and then another list, 10th of April, so apparently no exchange had

 9     taken place.  If that would be the explanation, the person still was

10     there, five, six weeks later.

11             Please proceed.

12             At least as recorded in this document.  And that's what

13     Mr. MacDonald, I think, wants to bring to your attention.

14             Mr. MacDonald.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we please now move to P06722.

16        Q.   This is a report on a prisoner exchange from October 1994.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  And I'd look for page 3 in the B/C/S, page 4 in

18     the English.  And I'm looking for number 11 on the list.

19        Q.   And I'm correct that this report states:

20             "According to the Serbian side, she died at the age of 101 while

21     in Rogatica-Rasadnik prison?"

22        A.   I don't know who drafted this report.  It is possible that she

23     died in June in the reception centre.  She did not die in prison.  It is

24     quite possible that she died, she was 101 years old, but she probably

25     died in the reception centre, not in -- in prison.  There were cases of

Page 29615

 1     people of Serbian ethnicity who were dying of old age as well --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, first of all, you were not asked

 3     about any persons of Serbian ethnicity.  Do you have any specific

 4     knowledge that she died anywhere else than in Rasadnik?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no other knowledge.  The

 6     only thing I claim is this:  If she died, she died in the reception

 7     centre.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you have no knowledge about it, you told

 9     us, unless you mean to refer to Rasadnik as a reception centre.  Is that

10     what you are telling us?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rasadnik was both a detention

12     centre and a reception centre.  It was reception centre for civilians and

13     elderly people, and it was a detention centre for soldiers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you do not know where she died.  And none

15     of the documents is talking about a reception centre, but all the

16     documents shown to you are talking about prisoners and about prison.  Any

17     comment on that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who drafted this

19     document.  This is my comment.  Nobody from our command drafted this

20     document.  I'm sure.  And nobody from our command would have called

21     this --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The authors of the documents did.

23             Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we now move to P06806.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Lelek, this is an exhumation report from the

Page 29616

 1     municipality of Rogatica carried out by the cantonal court of Sarajevo

 2     dated 4 November 1998.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  I'd look for page 9 in the English, page 7 in the

 4     B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And the name at number 11, Hanka Kustura.  The heading of this

 6     section, sir, is "Rasadnik (Rogatica)."

 7             Now, sir --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the last time this document was used,

10     and I believe it was Ms. Bibles who was using it, you invited that I

11     could check the co-ordinates on Google.  I did.  The co-ordinates that I

12     came up with in Google by plugging in these numbers do not arrive in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honours, there was discussion on this

15     document.  You can find it at T-26414 to 26416.  And I believe

16     Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, requested the Prosecution to discover

17     if there had been an autopsy.  We have not found an autopsy report on

18     this -- on this person, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Any comment on the co-ordinates which put this

20     person, perhaps other persons as well, I've not looked at it yet, outside

21     of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22             MR. MacDONALD:  I have no -- no comment upon that at the moment,

23     Your Honours.  I haven't checked that personally, I'm afraid.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  The other piece of information that I wish to

Page 29617

 1     bring to Your Honour's attention is that my colleague misspoke in saying

 2     she was found in a mass grave.  The transcript testimony is -- I

 3     provided -- in fact, it is a single grave although amongst other single

 4     graves in the same area.  That is the extent of the information we have.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there seems to be dispute about the area

 6     which may need to be further explored.  What explains that you found this

 7     to be outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Are we using different grid

 8     references.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Or is these the correct grid references?  Is it

11     military maps?  Is it -- is it on the basis of the -- the global -- how

12     do you call that?  What the satellites tell us.  Yes, the locations --

13             MR. IVETIC:  GPS.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, GPS gives us a kind of positions.  This is

15     X 38, Y 59.  Well, we have to -- east and north.  Let's have a closer

16     look at it.

17             That does not prevent you from putting questions at this moment

18     to the witness on it, but it certainly needs to be further explored.

19             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours.  And I only rose

20     because I had had discussions with Ms. Bibles, and Mr. MacDonald is

21     correct as to the other elements that Ms. Bibles had advised me of that

22     she had confirmed, and those are the items that have been raised.  And so

23     we wanted to just make sure that was clear now that we have this document

24     before us again.  But obviously, they're allowed to ask questions about

25     the document.

Page 29618

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lelek, I'm going to put you to that on the basis of what

 4     happened to Hanka Kustura, Rasadnik prison was used to detain Muslim

 5     civilians, including elderly women, who were then meant to be used for

 6     exchange.  It was not a reception or collection centre.  Isn't that the

 7     case, sir?

 8        A.   No, it is not.  It was a reception centre for civilians, and it

 9     was a detention unit for prisoners of war.  This lady, Hanka whatever her

10     name is, Kustura, she may have died in Rasadnik, but she did not die in

11     the detention unit.  She died in the rooms which -- where civilian --

12     civilians were accommodated.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lelek, how do you know that, where she died?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've just said that she died in

15     Rasadnik.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I didn't say anything.  I asked you how do you

17     know where she died.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor told me that she

19     died in Rasadnik, and I claim if she died in Rasadnik she died in the

20     reception centre not in the detention unit because Rasadnik was split

21     into two:  There was a reception centre and there was a detention

22     facility --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter missed the last bit of the

24     witness's answer.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We heard that several times.  I just wanted to

Page 29619

 1     know how do you know where this person died.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because they were not kept

 3     in the detention unit.  They were not prisoners of war.  That's how I

 4     know.  I know that she was in the reception centre.  That's how I know.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How do you know that this person was not in the

 6     Rasadnik prison?  How do you know that?  Have you ever met her?  Have you

 7     seen her?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never met or saw her, but when I

 9     went to Rasadnik because of our fighters, I was told where the reception

10     centre was and where the detention unit was.  I never saw that woman.  I

11     didn't know her.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was just speculation.  It was not a fact you

13     testified about; correct?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I claim that

15     101-year-old woman was not kept in the prison but she was kept in the

16     detention unit -- or rather, she was kept in the reception centre, not in

17     the detention unit.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that answer.  You are claiming that

19     but you have no facts.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  I'll move to my final topic --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  -- Your Honours.

24        Q.   Mr. Lelek, I'd like to speak to you briefly about Muslims leaving

25     Rogatica municipality.  Muslims were forcibly transferred out of Rogatica

Page 29620

 1     municipality in, amongst other times, August 1992, weren't they?

 2        A.   No, they were not.

 3        Q.   You are aware that Radislav Ljubinac was found guilty, amongst

 4     other things, of forcibly transferring women and children out of the

 5     village of Seljani -- sorry, Muslim women and children out of the village

 6     of Seljani and Rogatica municipality to Sarajevo in August of 1992, and

 7     he was found guilty by a court in Bosnia.  You are aware of that, aren't

 8     you?

 9        A.   I know that Radislav Ljubinac was found guilty and sentenced, but

10     I don't know why.  I never asked him.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the first name of this person, Radislav or

12     Radoljub?

13             MR. MacDONALD:  Radislav, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. MacDONALD:

16        Q.   Radislav Ljubinac was a member of the Rogatica Brigade, wasn't

17     he?

18        A.   Yes, he was.

19        Q.   If I can move to October 1994.  And Muslims were forcibly

20     transferred out of villages in Rogatica municipality then as well,

21     weren't they.

22        A.   No, they were not.  All the villagers volunteered to leave their

23     place of residence.  They did it of their own will.  Nobody forced them

24     to do that.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P06830.  This is

Page 29621

 1     an article from the "New York Times" on 6 October 1994.

 2        Q.   I just wonder if you can read the first four paragraphs for me,

 3     just to yourself, and let me know when you've finished reading, sir.

 4        A.   I can't say anything.  I've not seen this document before.  I

 5     don't know what this is about.

 6        Q.   Well, sir, I believe earlier today when my friend asked you about

 7     loyal Muslim villages, you mentioned the villages of Burati and

 8     Satorovici.  That's right, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And there are two people here who are stating they were told to

11     leave:  The one from Burati by Serbian soldiers; and the one from

12     Satorovici by the Serbian authorities.  That's right, isn't it?

13        A.   These villagers that were loyal, they were first taken to the

14     collection centre in Rogatica, and it was their own wish to go to

15     Sarajevo, I don't know, Kiseljak, wherever people wanted to go.  And then

16     when there was a larger number of them, buses took them to areas that

17     were under BH Army control.

18        Q.   You didn't speak to these people leaving personally, did you?

19        A.   No, never.

20        Q.   You don't know if they were leaving voluntarily, do you?

21        A.   I know of several cases.  I know the village of Zahum that was

22     loyal.  I know that they called Radivoje Planojevic, who was their

23     neighbour, and asked him to call the Municipal Assembly of Rogatica to

24     have transportation provided for them because they couldn't take it

25     anymore because the Muslim village of Uskoplje was threatening them.

Page 29622

 1     They said that they would kill them because they were co-operating with

 2     the Serbs.  So they asked Planojevic for a bus, and Planojevic called the

 3     president of the municipality, they sent a bus to their village, and they

 4     boarded the business, and they were taken to the collection centre in

 5     Rogatica, and from there they went further on.  So they asked voluntarily

 6     asked to have transportation provided for them so that they could leave.

 7     They no longer dared to live in their own village.

 8        Q.   You didn't speak personally to any of the people leaving from

 9     that village, did you?

10        A.   No, no one personally.

11        Q.   And this report that we read in front of us is quite clear that

12     people were forced to leave from the two villages named; correct?

13        A.   I don't know to whom they gave statements and under what

14     conditions.  I know exactly how things went in these loyal villages.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have back on the

16     screen P06722.

17        Q.   Mr. Lelek, this is the document concerning the exchange of

18     prisoners that noted that Hanka Kustura had died.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  And I would ask for page 4 in both languages.

20     It's at the top in the B/C/S and it is just underneath the list that I am

21     looking for.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm just going to read to you this paragraph and then ask

23     you for your comment.

24             It -- the author writes:

25             "Unfortunately, I have to write that the Karadzic Serbs have

Page 29623

 1     taken advantage of the 1 October 1994 agreement signed at the airport in

 2     an attempt to use the prisoner exchange as a means of legalizing actions

 3     which carry all the traits of the crime of genocide.  In that sense prior

 4     to the exchange the Karadzic Serbs had, on 5 October, expelled the

 5     remaining Bosniak population from four Rogatica villages: 66 women,

 6     children, and elderly in total.  On 10 October, they expelled another 21

 7     residents of the villages of Burati and Kovanja, leaving these

 8     territories purely Serb inhabited."

 9             Mr. Lelek, it is true, is it not, that the Bosnian Serb

10     authorities used prisoner exchanges as an opportunity to further

11     ethnically cleanse Rogatica municipality?

12        A.   That's not true either.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

15             Before we give an opportunity to re-examine the witness, I would

16     have a few questions for the witness.

17             Witness, you explained to us several times that the persons in

18     the reception centre had to be made prisoners of war in order to be able

19     to be part of an exchange.  Is that correctly understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand it correctly.

21     When I saw that list of prisoners of war, I thought that maybe somebody

22     had asked from the Muslim side for prisoners of war so that they could be

23     exchanged and that that is why they put civilians on these lists.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I'm just trying to understand, if you would

25     have left those elderly civilians to go there -- where they wanted to go,

Page 29624

 1     why would the other side insist on having a list of people they would

 2     receive?  I mean, if would you have let them go, then of course they were

 3     even better off not receiving such a list, not to be in a position to

 4     have -- to make any counteroffer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present personally, but

 6     what you heard was that it's the village of Berkovici, I think, when the

 7     civilians expressed their loyalty and they asked to go to territory that

 8     was under BiH Army control.  I think towards Volo -- Olovo, but they

 9     didn't want to take them in as civilians probably because they stayed

10     with the Serb side for a long time, and then they were returned to the

11     detention unit -- no, the collection centre, in Rogatica.  And then maybe

12     later, in order to be able to go to their territory, they had to portray

13     themselves as prisoners of war.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Save me what probably was the case.  Tell us what

15     you know.  Then you would say they should be made prisoners of war to

16     convince the other side that a 100-year-old lady was to be exchanged not

17     to be a civilian but to be a prisoner of war?  I'm just asking you

18     whether you're serious in telling us that that explains the situation.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't speak about that woman.  I

20     was speaking about the civilian population from Berkovici and --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm talking about the list of elderly which was

22     presented to you on which we find, among others, this old lady, three

23     times:  First in February; then in April; and, finally, reported to have

24     deceased in August.  I'm talking about that, not about anything else.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the reason was,

Page 29625

 1     why they were --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end of

 3     the sentence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you again repeat your answer

 5     because the interpreters couldn't catch you, your words.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please speak into the microphone.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why they were treated

 8     as prisoners of war.  Was it for an exchange maybe?  But I claim with

 9     full responsibility that these elderly people were not in military remand

10     prison.  They were in the collection centre.  That is really the only

11     thing I can say in response to that question.  I have nothing to add to

12     that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we've seen quite a list of persons.  How many

14     rooms were there for the civilians, and how many rooms were there for the

15     military prisoners?  Or prisoners of war, whatever you would ...

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean in Rasadnik?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I mean in Rasadnik.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I really didn't go

19     in there.  I don't know how big it is, how many rooms were used.  I

20     have -- didn't enter, so I cannot tell you about that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So you also have no personal knowledge about how

22     they were separated, if they were separated?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were separated.  There was a

24     detention facility and then there was the collection centre on the other

25     side.  I cannot say how many rooms belonged to which one.  I did not go

Page 29626

 1     in there, so I cannot say.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to ask you a few questions on a totally

 3     different subject.

 4             Could you have a look at paragraph 12 of your statement.  You

 5     have a hard copy with you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it here on paper.  You

 7     don't have to look for it out there.  You don't have to put it up there.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll do it anyhow, if you wouldn't mind.

 9             Could I ask you a few questions.  First of all, you're talking

10     about listening to Radio BiH of Sarajevo and reports sent to them by

11     Fadil Heljic.  Could you tell us what time-frame are you talking about?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally did not listen to

13     Radio BH Sarajevo.  We had a person who was in charge who was a ham radio

14     operator, and he gave us information about these intercepted

15     communications of theirs.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So where it says, "very often we would listen," the

17     accurate statement is "very often a person I know would listen to Radio

18     BiH?"

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.  Yes.  A mistake was

20     made there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, you also didn't hear personally

22     that it was reported that there were cases of euthanasia and cannibalism.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear it with my own ears,

24     but I received information from a ham radio operator of ours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you know Fadil Heljic.

Page 29627

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew him before the war.  He was

 2     a mailman at the post office in Zepa.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you have any contact with him during the

 4     war?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You tell us that Fadil Heljic received orders to

 7     bombard the public with these kind of statements.  Could you tell us how

 8     you know that he received such orders?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we knew through their radio

10     communications.  I already mentioned this ham radio operator of ours who

11     intercepted their communications, and he told us that orders were

12     received from Sarajevo how this misinformation should be communicated in

13     order to blacken the Serb side as much as possible.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was the ham radio operator who conveyed all this

15     information to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vukola Mandza.  He was a good ham

17     radio operator before the war.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you received all of this information

19     you're revealing here through him.  Is that well understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you also referred to a document - and I think

22     that was one of the corrections, Mr. Ivetic, when I'm right - a document

23     which shows that it was all lies.  Could you explain this a bit more

24     about this document because we do not know.  What kind of a document is

25     it?

Page 29628

 1             You say document so and so shows that these were lies and

 2     fabrication and then what -- what -- what document is it?  Is it a

 3     letter?  Is it an official document?  Is it a newspaper article?  What is

 4     it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document that was sent to

 6     us by this Vukola Mandza.  He intercepted radio communications and sent

 7     this document to us so that we would have it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  But my question was what kind of

 9     a document it is.  You now explained how you received, but could you tell

10     us what it is, the document?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is a document where what

12     is written in may statement is written.  That is to say --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But you commented on that document, you drew certain

14     conclusions from it, and since we have not -- we have not received that

15     document, I'd like to know from you what that document is.  What kind of

16     a document is it.  Is it a newspaper article?  Is it an official report?

17     Is it a combat report?  A daily report?  Is it a letter?  What kind of a

18     document is it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, as far as I can remember,

20     I saw this document when I testified in the case of

21     President Radovan Karadzic.  This document did exist in his case.  I

22     don't know whether it exists here, but that's the document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, have you seen the document then after you

24     testified in the case against Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see it afterwards.

Page 29629

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It wasn't shown to you during the interview?

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean the interview by the Mladic Defence when you

 4     were giving your statement.  Was it then shown to you?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer

 6     understand or hear the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer.  My question was

 8     whether the document was shown to you during your interview by the Mladic

 9     Defence.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, again, my question:  What kind of a document is

12     it?  Because you draw conclusions on the basis of that document;

13     therefore, I would like to know what the document is.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Can I correct the record, Your Honour, because you

15     are incorrect that you have not received the document?  You have received

16     the document and you've given it an exhibit number.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would have preferred, as a matter of fact,

18     that it was referred to by the Exhibit number unless it was at a later

19     stage that the exhibit number was given to it.

20             MR. IVETIC:  You gave the exhibit number today, Your Honours.  It

21     was tendered by myself as an associated exhibit to his statement with the

22     number 1D3122.  It received Exhibit D851, I believe -- 0.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are right, Mr. Ivetic, but it was not shown

24     to us.  It was just admitted.  We didn't see it.

25             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honour said it was not received.  If

Page 29630

 1     something is admitted into evidence, it is received by the Chamber.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But that's not the point.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm glad to accept that after the change

 5     of the numbers that this is apparently then -- let's have a look at it.

 6     It may --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One of the two associated exhibits.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, one of two.  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the new number.  Yes, paragraph 12.

10     Yes.  That must then be 1D03122, and that was the new number given.  That

11     all -- well, I'll have a look at it later.

12             But I'd first like to know from you, Witness, what this document

13     is.

14             Apart from, I stand corrected, Mr. Ivetic, that we haven't

15     received it.

16             But what is the document?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think the witness has already

18     answered that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, wait -- wait -- yes, he -- no, he has not.

20             MR. IVETIC:  He has indeed.  I can give you the transcript

21     reference.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm not at this moment at this -- I --

23     if he has answered it, then he'll answer it again.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Fair enough.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What is the document?

Page 29631

 1             I asked you -- gave you several options, newspaper article,

 2     anything else ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's something different.  It's

 5     not a newspaper article.  This ham radio operator, when he intercepted

 6     that, he sent this document to us on a type-written page.  It's like a

 7     dispatch or something that was sent to the command of the brigade.  He

 8     didn't send us combat reports, I mean, the ham radio operator.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do now understand that where the witness

10     earlier testified how he received it, that it is also to be understood as

11     a transcript of what was intercepted by the ham radio.  That wasn't clear

12     to me.  It is clear to me now.

13             Then could I have a look at it to see ...

14             Could we have it on our screen.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  D850.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, before we further look at the document, you

18     told us that you saw this document during the Karadzic trial because you

19     said then the document was there.

20             Now, when did you see it for the first time?  Was it given to you

21     by the ham radio operator, or did you see it for the first time in the

22     Karadzic proceedings?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had seen it before the

24     Radovan Karadzic case.  I saw it immediately.  As soon as the ham radio

25     operator intercepted this information, he immediately submitted it to the

Page 29632

 1     brigade command.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I -- could we move a little bit further

 3     up in the B/C/S version.

 4             Yes.  And on the top, it says "Lelek."  Do you know who did write

 5     that there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This thing up here in the

 7     right-hand corner?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was written by the

10     Defence of Dr. Radovan Karadzic, that they had this document and that

11     they wrote that that document should be submitted to me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you -- you said you received that right away.

13     Did you keep a copy at the time or did you destroy it or ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that single copy remained in

15     the archives of the brigade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is it known, Mr. Ivetic, I'm also looking at

17     you, where this document was retrieved?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I believe the ERN range is from the Prosecution's

19     collection of documents that they claim from the Drina Corps, but I have

20     obviously did not get the document from the archives myself.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  I don't have that information to hand,

22     Your Honours, but I can certainly check.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you please do that.

24             Then I would like to have an opportunity to at least briefly read

25     the document and see whether I have any further questions in relation to

Page 29633

 1     that.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest we take an early break --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so that at least we can read what we had already

 6     received in evidence earlier today but which I had no opportunity to read

 7     yet.

 8             We'll take an early break and we'll see after the break whether I

 9     have any further questions for you in relation to this document.

10             If, meanwhile, the Office of the Prosecutor could provide us with

11     background information of the document.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, I've been told already by two

13     colleagues it is from our Drina Corps collection.  I can find further

14     details, if you wish.  Or I can try.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think that's the most important information

16     that it was --

17             MR. MacDONALD:  Yeah --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  And could I have a hard copy during the

19     break so that can I read it.

20             Witness, we'll take a break, 20 minutes.

21             Mr. Ivetic, could you already give us an indication as to how

22     much time would you need?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think I can complete in 15 minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In 15 minutes.  Then --

25             You may follow the usher.

Page 29634

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 1.30.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 1.08 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

 6             Meanwhile, I have a few questions to the parties.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, the witness suggested that the word "Lelek" had been

 8     added during the Karadzic case.  Therefore, the document as we see it

 9     before us then would not be the document which was retrieved from the

10     Drina Corps.  That's one.

11             Therefore, I would like the Prosecution to verify whether it's

12     exactly the same document or whether it's just the handwritten "Lelek"

13     which is missing, and also whether it's the complete document, whether

14     there is -- this is the one and only page of that document.

15             Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I can provide some additional information.  The

17     document as uploaded in our e-court is the -- well, it is the document

18     that was on the Karadzic -- that was in the Karadzic case as their number

19     1D06833.  So I believe Your Honour is correct that the -- the -- this

20     handwritten -- this one with the handwritten notation is from the

21     Karadzic case --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not know yet.  It could have been there

23     originally as well.

24             MR. IVETIC:  It could have.  It could have as well.  Right.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore that is a conclusion which needs to be

Page 29635

 1     verified first and that's what I invited the Prosecution to do.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And also whether it's the complete document.

 4             Witness, I have a few questions on the document which is now

 5     before us on the screen and which you commented in your statement,

 6     paragraph 12.

 7             Do I understand well that this document is a dispatch sent by the

 8     1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade to the Drina Corps command to the

 9     Visegrad Tactical Group command and the Rudo Tactical Group command?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is my understanding also correct that it

12     reflects what a person who has intercepted a radio communication, what he

13     reports to be the content of the conversation he intercepted?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you see that contemporaneously in

16     1992, or did you not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was it you who received it and instructed it

19     to be sent to the corps command or was it someone else?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive this.  This was

21     the duty of the assistant chief of staff for intelligence and security.

22     He was the one who received this.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was there any specific reason why you looked

24     at this report in 1992?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the evening when we met up at

Page 29636

 1     the brigade command, the assistant chief of staff for security and

 2     intelligence gave all of us this document to peruse.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is this the whole of the document, or is it

 4     part of a document?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see if the document is

 6     complete because I don't see the bottom of the page.  I don't know

 7     whether the sentence at the bottom of the page is, indeed, the last

 8     sentence of the document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question is whether you have any

10     recollection whether it was, as it appears before us, a one-page

11     document, or whether it was a more-page document.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember how many pages

13     there were, but I remember that we received the document from the

14     assistant chief of staff for intelligence and security, and I remember

15     the contents.  And I don't remember whether there was just one page, half

16     a page, more than one page, I don't know how the ham radio operator

17     presented it.  He sent it to us and then we sent it to the command of the

18     Drina Corps.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.  Any information relevant for this

20     line of questioning?

21             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  There does appear to be a

22     second page to this document.  I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is how it was -- how it was disclosed to

24     the Defence in its -- I take it that it's -- whether it electronic

25     disclosure or any way else, that this is the full document was disclosed

Page 29637

 1     to the Defence.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  If Your Honour would just bear with me for one

 3     moment.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, I'll continue with a few more

 5     questions.

 6             Witness, you commented on it and you said what is contained in

 7     this document is not true, if I understand you well.  Let's first leave

 8     it to the 700 Chetniks killed.  You say that is not true or couldn't be

 9     true?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  Nothing of the contents

11     is true.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let's take it step by step.

13             I do understand that you said:

14             "15 armoured vehicles destroyed cannot be true because we had no

15     15 armoured vehicles.  We had only 1 personal carrier and two tanks at

16     the time."

17             Therefore that is also not true in your view?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It continues to say that -- that a lady was

20     captured, more than 90 years old.  Do you have any comment on that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My only comment is that this is

22     nothing but blatant lies.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And how do you know that?  Are you -- do you know

24     who are they referring to?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that we never ever captured

Page 29638

 1     a 90-year-old woman anywhere up there.  There was no need for us to go

 2     after 90-year-old women.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, then, I take it that what is described as

 4     her fate is also not true?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where it says that a woman who was

 6     90-plus years old in Laze, not true.  No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It further says that two of the wounded

 8     combatants were burned.  That is not true either?  And it's described as

 9     having happened in the Podzeplje area.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that because Podzeplje

11     did border on our area.  It is on an entirely different side in the

12     direction of Han Pijesak.  That was not in the area of responsibility of

13     our brigade, so I can't say anything about this.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's far away from where your unit was.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now you say this document demonstrates that

17     what was broadcasted by Radio BiH of Sarajevo is not true, and you

18     specifically refer to Fadil Heljic having received instructions that they

19     should dig as many mounds as possible along the road used by humanitarian

20     convoys and UNPROFOR and UNHCR which point to a large number of dead

21     being buried every day.

22             How does this document, which, as you say, contains no truth at

23     all --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- how would that demonstrate that other

Page 29639

 1     information, which is about Muslims deceased, how would this document

 2     explain that that is not true, that the reporting is not true?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several such documents.

 4     I don't know where you can find them.  They're all false.  We intercepted

 5     them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But now apart from whether information in

 7     communications between two persons turns out to be false, my question is:

 8     How that intercepted conversation would demonstrate what you say was

 9     wrongly broadcasted on the radio or was contradicting the instructions

10     received by the person who was broadcasting that information, which is

11     quite different from what is dealt with in this document.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'll not repeat it.  I leave it to the parties

14     to argue on this matter.

15             I have a final few questions.

16             Were you aware of 55 Chetniks, as it is written here, released

17     from prison but they considered -- the interlocutors considered that to

18     be a mistake.  Are you aware of 55 Chetniks, as they call the persons, to

19     be released from prison by apparently the Muslim side?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were never 55 Chetniks or

21     what they call Chetniks and I would call them our fighters.  In any case,

22     there were never 55 of them captured them in Zepa at all, so this is yet

23     another lie.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean not 55 of your fighters, or never 55 at

25     all in Zepa, or in Muslim hands.

Page 29640

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know only know that at the

 2     beginning of the war, the very beginning, 45 were killed.  They were

 3     members of the VRS on the way to our -- to the repeater where our crew

 4     as, and as they were crossing Budicin brook --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Killing of 45 persons, which is serious, is,

 6     however, something different from what my question was about; that is,

 7     about 55 people being detained, captured.

 8             Therefore, I repeat my question:  If you say, never 55 of them

 9     were captured, do you mean just in Zepa?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from our brigade.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot claim that if they were

13     captured they were not from other brigades.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say it's still possible from other

15     brigades, 55 persons were captured.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I'm talking

17     about our brigade.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could you tell us where in this document

19     it says that the information relates to your brigade only?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say so.  However, I know

21     what the situation was with our brigade, and I know what information

22     would pertain to it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that you were aware of that.

24             Now, has it ever crossed your mind that the conversation which

25     was intercepted may have dealt with a far broader theatre than your

Page 29641

 1     brigade?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I said that I did

 3     not work on this document.  It was the assistant chief of staff for

 4     intelligence and security who worked on this document.  I only read it at

 5     a meeting.  This was not a part of my duties.  It was the assistant chief

 6     of staff who --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me.  Nevertheless, you draw all kind

 8     of conclusions off the basis of this document, and I'm focusing on that.

 9             If you say, We had no 15 armoured vehicles, therefore, it must be

10     a lie that they were destroyed, then that assumes or presumes that these

11     were 15 armoured vehicles of your brigade.  Would you agree with that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a lie that there were that

13     many armoured vehicles.  It's a lie.  I did not have that many of them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You didn't have them, but as with the 55

15     prisoners, they may have destroyed 15 armoured vehicles elsewhere.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, this is nothing but a

17     lie.  When it comes to the number of soldiers who were killed, the number

18     of tanks that were destroyed, everything false.  And now why

19     Dr. Becir Heljic wrote that, he was from Zepa but lived in Sarajevo.

20     What he said and what Fadil had conveyed, I don't know why they did that.

21     You should ask them.  You should talk to them, actually.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, I asked you about the fate of two

23     wounded combatants in the Podzeplje area.  You said you wouldn't know

24     because that was far away from where your unit was.  Have you ever

25     considered that the information in this intercept may have covered areas

Page 29642

 1     far away from your unit?  Whether false or true, it's a different matter,

 2     but that it was not limited to the area of responsibility of your

 3     brigade?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know whether

 5     the brigade commander with his assistant for security and intelligence

 6     discussed this ever at all.  As far as I'm concerned, I never discussed

 7     this document with anybody.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least with the Karadzic Defence and with

 9     the Mladic Defence, I take it.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And your question is what?  I don't

11     understand.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said I never discussed it with anyone; but

13     I said but you did discuss it with the Karadzic and the Mladic Defence.

14     True?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but never before.  I thought

16     that you were asking me about the time when that happened, whether I

17     spoke about this document with somebody in the brigade.  No, I did not.

18     It was only the brigade commander and his assistant for intelligence and

19     security who could probably discuss this document, not me.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             I have no further questions on this document, but Judge Fluegge

22     has one or more questions for you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Mr. MacDonald, I think we -- you have concluded your

Page 29643

 1     cross-examination.  I had some questions.  Mr. Ivetic is now, I think

 2     it's his turn.

 3             If you want to provide us information, then that's appreciated.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             I understand this document was not disclosed individually but as

 6     part of the EDS system; I mean, the entire document is on there.

 7             I think the reason there's only one page is that that is what was

 8     taken in the Karadzic case.  The translation request I think was from the

 9     Defence in that case, and they only requested the first page be

10     translated.  I understand, and I don't claim to speak B/C/S, but the

11     second -- this second page I have seems to follow on and be in the same

12     typeset and so forth and so on.  That is the information I have,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is there any sender visible?

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  It appears to be type signed

16     Commander Captain Rajko Kusic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, in -- in -- in view of the answers I

18     have received to my questions, I -- perhaps it always is better to have a

19     complete document.  Whatever appears on the second page, unless there are

20     surprising matters, I would not be primarily interested in it, but

21     perhaps the parties could have a look at and see whether it adds anything

22     to what can we discussed until now.

23             MR. IVETIC:  We'll do so, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then Judge Fluegge has a question.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lelek, also with respect to paragraph 12 of

Page 29644

 1     your statement, there you say:

 2             "Fadil Heljic received orders to bombarded the public with such

 3     statements directly from Sarajevo from his relative, Dr. Becir Heljic."

 4             I just want to know what is the basis of this statement, the

 5     factual basis.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective was to create a bad

 7     image of Serbs as aggressors and --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that the Muslim side should be

10     portrayed as those who were suffering.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, this is not my question.  I would like to

12     know the basis of your knowledge about such an instruction by

13     Dr. Becir Heljic.  How do you know that, that he instructed his relative

14     in that way?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ham radio operator who was

16     always intercepting their conversations knew that Becir Heljic was

17     sending all of these messages to Fadil Heljic in Zepa because

18     Becir Heljic hailed from Zepa and lived in Zepa before the war.  He was a

19     doctor when the war started.  He left and settled in Sarajevo.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You received this information from

21     the ham radio operator, and you -- earlier you gave his name.  Was

22     that -- did he tell you orally, you personally, or was it information

23     given to the brigade or to the commander?  In which way did you receive

24     this information?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you once he did not give

Page 29645

 1     me that information personally.  He typed up a dispatch and sent it to

 2     the brigade commander.  He didn't really speak to anybody about that.

 3     His communication was written and sent to the brigade command.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I also have one short follow-up question which only

 6     came to my mind now.

 7             The person portrayed in this intercept is a doctor.  Is it your

 8     evidence that that doctor must be Dr. Becir Heljic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that it was

10     Dr. Becir Heljic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the basis for that claim?  Because in the

12     intercept we only see that there is a doctor in Sarajevo, and there may

13     be many doctors in Sarajevo.  Do you have -- what's -- what is it that

14     makes you claim that it is Dr. Heljic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not the only conversation

16     that was intercepted.  There were many such conversations where

17     Dr. Becir Heljic's name was mentioned.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any such -- now I have -- my last

19     question, is you say, well, this was all false information to give a bad

20     picture of the Serbs.  If I read all this, then it mainly and primarily

21     glorifies the Muslims being so successful in their actions and only on

22     two points saying that the Serbs misbehaved.  And you say it's false,

23     all, anyhow.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is all nothing

25     but lies.

Page 29646

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- I leave it to the parties to further

 2     argue on how compelling conclusions, how these documents should be --

 3     this document should be interpreted against the background of what we

 4     know now, that is, that the witness did not himself listen to the BH

 5     radio because I don't think it would be of any use at this moment to

 6     further -- but if any of the parties has questions for the question of

 7     course feel free to ask them.

 8             Mr. Ivetic, any further questions?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.  And first, I don't know whether

10     Judge Fluegge is finished.  He asked about the name of the operator, that

11     is at temporary transcript page 65, line 21 through 22.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I know.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, okay.  Thank you.  Then I can continue with this

14     document, first of all.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

16        Q.   Sir, this document identifies that this is a participant from

17     Zepa and a doctor from Sarajevo.  You've already told us about your

18     understanding of who the doctor in Sarajevo is.  Do you have any

19     information as to who the participate in Zepa would have been?

20        A.   Is that a question for me?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   Well, from Zepa, it was Heljic, the mailman, whatever.  Fadil,

23     Fadil.  He's one.  And the other one is Dr. Becir.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move to another topic.  At temporary

25     transcript page 19, lines 12 through 22, and then at several points

Page 29647

 1     during the cross-examination, you repeatedly referenced a telegram or

 2     dispatch sent on the 23rd of May, 1992, which you said had been -- showed

 3     that you were not yet part of the VRS.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to call up Prosecution Exhibit P00166 in

 5     e-court.

 6        Q.   Sir, what we have on the screen is dated the 23rd of May, 1992.

 7     And I'd like to ask you, sir, if this might perhaps be the document that

 8     you kept referencing during the cross-examination of the Prosecution?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And if you could help us out, the Sokolac TO commander, what

11     entity was that during the relevant time-period?

12        A.   That was this Territorial Defence in Sokolac and the

13     Territorial Defence of Rogatica.  But the one at Sokolac was higher

14     ranking compared to Rogatica.  That's why these dispatches were sent to

15     them, because there were no links yet with the corps or the Main Staff.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you:  You testified about

17     not including the references to Uzamnica and the JNA depot there at

18     Uzamnica.  Do you recall when weapons were sent from Rogatica to

19     Uzamnica?

20        A.   I worked in the Territorial Defence Staff until 1990.  And until

21     then, that was not the case.  It was probably the end of 1990 or the

22     beginning of 1991.  It was probably 1991.

23        Q.   Do you have knowledge of the reason why the TO weapons were sent

24     to the JNA depot at Uzamnica near Visegrad?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

Page 29648

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honours.  I think -- I think my friend

 2     is going to territory that was not covered in cross-examination.  I spoke

 3     about simply mentioning something left out of the statement.  Even the

 4     substance of that, I think we're straying away from that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, Mr. MacDonald, there was, of

 6     course, a suggestion in your later questioning that these were relevant

 7     and important matters and for that reason Mr. Ivetic is allowed to

 8     briefly go to the substance as well.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Sir, do you have knowledge of the reason why the weapons of the

12     TO were sent to the JNA depot at Uzamnica near Visegrad?

13        A.   It was for security reasons.  There were already these party

14     divisions, and it's not only from our brigade that weapons went -- no,

15     sorry, not brigades.  Territorial Defence staffs.  All the weapons were

16     withdrawn into the depot, so no Territorial Defence staffs had weapons.

17     This was done for the sake of safety and security, because these party

18     divisions started already after the first multi-party elections were

19     held.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to look at 65 ter number 31403.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Which I'm not sure if that received a P number.  It

22     was used but I don't know if it was tendered.  I only have the

23     65 ter number.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was not tendered.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

Page 29649

 1        Q.   Sir, this is the Official Note of the MUP interview, and I'd like

 2     to ask you:  First of all, did the police officials that were

 3     interviewing you, did they record your interview to your knowledge?

 4        A.   Well, I really wanted to explain this even before but I wasn't

 5     allowed to.  This conversation took perhaps only five minutes.  This

 6     official who worked at the MUP in this little notepad he just jotted

 7     things down:  Do you know anything about the staffs?  No.  The Crisis

 8     Staffs?  No.  Did you enter, did you know anything about Rasadnik and

 9     these collection centres, and I said I heard that there was that at

10     Borike but I never entered.  That was it, five or six minutes.  That was

11     that.  He left.  I never received a statement from -- for me to sign.

12     And there's also other incorrect information here.  Over here, in this

13     second paragraph, from the top --

14        Q.   Could you direct us to the other incorrect information in this

15     Official Note from the MUP.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, other incorrect -- incorrect

17     information, I would like to hear about that because it -- although it's

18     not tendered, if I understand you well, the issue was whether the witness

19     at the time said that he never entered the centres, whereas he now says

20     that the -- we have dealt with that in quite some detail.

21             Now the witness has repeatedly confirmed that he told those MUP

22     officers that he did not enter the premises there, so in that respect at

23     least the report seems to be confirmed.  Now if there is other

24     information which is incorrect, again it's not tendered so we wouldn't --

25     we wouldn't have it.  We would not even be able to rely on it.  Then if

Page 29650

 1     you consider that important and relevant, of course, you have an

 2     opportunity -- well, we come close to whether it still is something that

 3     was dealt with in cross-examination because that was focused exclusively

 4     on that one matter.  But if you have some few short questions on that.

 5     But then of course we would have a look at the whole of the document, and

 6     then it should be tendered.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  It's a very short point that twice the witness tried

 9     to raise in cross-examination and Your Honour stopped him from answering

10     it.  So I think it does arise from it --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps because it --

12             MR. IVETIC:  -- because you first did not know what he was going

13     to say.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, sometimes I stop witnesses because they are

15     going beyond what is asked.  But if you -- in that respect -- but again,

16     if there is anything at this moment you would like to briefly address,

17     please do so.

18             MR. IVETIC:  I could be very focused.

19        Q.   The end of the second paragraph of this Official Note, sir, that

20     records the time-period you were chief of staff, is it accurate?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the end of the paragraph?

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Sir, that was a question and I was hoping you could answer, and I

24     think it's what you wanted to raise.  The second paragraph, is the date

25     -- the dates that you are recorded, according to the MUP, as having been

Page 29651

 1     chief of staff, are they accurate?

 2        A.   They're not correct.  I said to the MUP employee then that I was

 3     the chief in the brigade, the chief in the brigade, end of 1993 beginning

 4     of 1994, and that until the end of the war I was there, until Dayton.

 5     And what is written here is that I was appointed chief of staff of the

 6     Rogatica Brigade from the 4th of April, 1992, to the 21st of June, 1996.

 7     That's not correct at all.  I was with my parents in the village there,

 8     and I was still involved with the village guards.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I see that there's also a translation

10     issue.  Well, a transcription issue rather than a translation issue.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you elicit from the witness when he was

13     performing the function you consider we should know about, then it's --

14     will be clarified.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah, why don't we just do it that way.

16        Q.   Sir, could you tell us what dates, as recall them, you served as

17     chief of staff of the Rogatica Brigade, the correct dates?

18        A.   I cannot give the exact dates, but I know it was the beginning --

19     the end of 1993, December 1993.  Or even the beginning of 1994.

20     January 1994.  Not what is written here from the 4th of April, 1992.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, you were asked about the Rasadnik facility, and I'd

22     like to ask you to assume that none of us have been to Rasadnik.  How

23     many buildings comprised the Rasadnik reception centre and the Rasadnik

24     military remand prison?

25        A.   It consisted of two buildings.  But this one here, the reception

Page 29652

 1     centre, it was longer and bigger than the one that was the military

 2     remand prison.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned loyal Muslim villages and your

 4     description of why they left Rogatica.  Do you know what they did with

 5     the keys to their houses and the houses themselves prior to leaving?

 6        A.   I don't know what they did with them.  Often they would even blow

 7     up their houses.  They would plant these mines there, things like that.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could we ask --

10             Could you give us two or three names of persons who mined their

11     houses and that were then -- that then did explode?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know that Asonja [phoen], I

13     can't remember the exact name, he wanted to enter the house and he came

14     across a booby-trap and was killed in that way.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my question was do you know specifically

16     about mining, who did it, what houses, what families did so?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say specifically because I

18     personally did not see that, so ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Do you happen to know the village where that occurred, as my

22     question dealt with the loyal Muslim villages that you had identified

23     earlier in your examination?

24        A.   I cannot remember.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 29653

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I see we're at the break I think

 2     I'm -- I've completely exhausted all my questions, so I think we can --

 3     unless anyone else has any questions, I'm done with the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions, Mr. Macdonald, is that how I have to

 8     understand your nodding in a horizontal movement?

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  Indeed, Your Honour.  No further questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Since the Bench has no further questions, Mr. Lelek, this

12     concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

13     The Hague - a long way - and for having answered all the questions that

14     were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench, and

15     I wish you a safe return home again.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn and we will resume Thursday, the

19     11th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of

22                           December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.