1 Thursday, 11 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There's one brief preliminary matter I would like to raise, that
12 is, associated exhibits with not Mr. Kupresanin but the witness who will
13 appear after Mr. Kupresanin. The Defence tenders 12 associated exhibits
14 with that witness, and the Chamber hereby invites the Defence to consider
15 reducing the number of associated exhibits by, for example, tendering
16 some of these documents with the witness during examination-in-chief.
17 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, you are. But we should have one
19 preliminary matter, actually.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, does it take a lot of time? Because otherwise
21 I will already ask the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.
22 MR. LUKIC: Shouldn't take long.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Shouldn't take long.
24 Then could the usher already prepare the witness to enter the
1 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's in regard first with this
3 witness. The Prosecution objected to six documents from the list
4 tendered as associated exhibits with this witness. We are not going to
5 tender three of them and three of those documents we will lead with the
6 witness, so because of that I will lead a bit more time. So probably 45
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, all together, so 15 minutes extra. Yes.
9 Although this should not be the usual consequence, but if you limit it to
10 45 minutes, it's granted hereby. But if there's any objection, of
11 course, you should find other ways of fitting them into the 30 minutes.
12 And if you are unable to do that then, of course, you're using more time
13 than is allocated, which may have long-run consequences.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, anything else at this moment or --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but we can proceed with the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: And I can continue after the break.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine.
20 Good morning, Mr. Kupresanin, I take it. Mr. Kupresanin, before
21 you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.
22 The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare
25 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: VOJO KUPRESANIN
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kupresanin.
4 Mr. Kupresanin, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll
5 find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kupresanin.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. We should pause between question and answer. That way it will be
12 possible for the interpreters to interpret what we're saying.
13 Have you provided a statement first to the members of the team of
14 Mr. Karadzic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you also talk to the representatives of General Mladic's
17 Defence on the basis of that statement primarily?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you could identify who was exactly
20 talking to the Defence, because I assume that it was Mr. Kupresanin but
21 it has not been confirmed yet. Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] I omit certain things in the course of such
24 activity. Could you please slowly state your name and surname.
25 A. I am Vojo Kupresanin. I live in Banja Luka.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D1621 on our screens, please.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, when we talked, did we notice
4 that there are any dates that are wrong?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. First let us take a look at paragraph 1 of this statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, Your Honours, but I
9 think we've called up the original version of the statement rather than
10 the updated, redacted version that the Defence provided this week.
11 MR. LUKIC: My learned friend is right. It should be 1D1621A.
12 And, at the first place, I was warned this morning there is some
13 difference between B/C/S and English translation in paragraph 1 regarding
14 one date so we will clarify that first with the witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Kupresanin, your party, the party that
18 you founded, when did it join the SDS? The 12th of July of which year?
19 A. The party that I was the president of, that is to say the
20 Homeland Front, came into being on the 4th of March, 1990, and on the
21 12th of July that same year, it became part of the Serb Democratic Party.
22 That's when the Serb Democratic Party was constituted in Sarajevo.
23 MR. LUKIC: So the B/C/S version is correct, and it should be
24 corrected in English version that it's 1990 instead of 1992.
25 Now can we have paragraph 5 on the next page in both versions.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: To which paragraph does the correction refer,
2 Mr. Lukic?
3 MR. LUKIC: The previous one or the next one?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The previous one.
5 MR. LUKIC: Paragraph 1, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: In this paragraph, while reading the statement of
8 Mr. Kupresanin, we found out that in paragraph 5, "page" in this -- from
9 this document was wrongly recorded, and it's not page 52 to 53 but
10 page 57. So the correct number of the exhibit but wrong page number.
11 Paragraph 11, please. Next page. This paragraph that we
13 In paragraph 12, the wrong number of the document was recorded by
14 the Defence members, and instead of -- I'm sorry. Paragraph 21, not 12.
15 In paragraph 21, exhibit number was wrongly recorded, and instead of
16 1D02026, it should read 1D03314.
17 Paragraph 47, in B/C/S second-last page, again the wrong page
18 number was recorded. It was recorded page 35 and should read page 5.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Lots of technical matters, Mr. Kupresanin, but
20 you do remember that we corrected some numbers, don't you?
21 A. I do.
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we have page 1 now of the statement on our
23 screens, please.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, on this page do you recognise
25 the signature?
1 A. On the left-hand side of the screen, I see a signature and I
2 recognise it, but on the right-hand side I do not see a signature. So I
3 do recognise this signature.
4 Q. Whose signature is it?
5 A. Mine.
6 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the last page in the same document,
8 Q. On this page, do you see two signatures, one after the text of
9 this part of the statement and the other one further down?
10 A. Yes, both of these signatures are my own.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kupresanin, what is recorded in this statement,
12 is it correct -- actually what you said to us, was it correctly recorded
13 in this statement? Throughout this statement. I'm referring to the
14 entire statement and the facts recorded in this statement.
15 A. Yes, correct, correct.
16 Q. The facts recorded in this statement, are they truthful to the
17 best of your knowledge and recollection?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: At this moment we would tender the statement,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,
22 the number would be ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 1D01621A receives exhibit
24 number D852, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D852 is admitted.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, with your leave, I would read statement
2 summary of this witness and then I will have several questions in regard
3 of a few documents --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: -- tendered originally as associated exhibits.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I have one little question. Mr. Lukic, at the end
7 it says that the 16-page document is the end in the English, and whereas
8 the document only contains 15 pages. In the original so 15 --
9 MR. LUKIC: In English -- in English it is 16 pages and in B/C/S
10 it is 15 pages.
11 JUDGE ORIE: In e-court, I have 15 pages at this moment.
12 MR. LUKIC: Oh --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps after the -- I don't know what happened, but
14 I'm on page 15 out of 15 in e-court, unless the wrong --
15 MR. LUKIC: Then it's --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- version is there, but --
17 MR. LUKIC: Probably I had the wrong version.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: So it should be corrected.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed -- yes, it's not a major thing, but
21 accuracy is always appreciated. Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Vojo Kupresanin became engaged in political work on the eve of
24 the first multi-party elections. On March the 4th, 1990, he formed the
25 Yugoslav Democratic Party, the Homeland Front, and on the 12th of July,
1 1990, his party became part of the SDS. After this, he was a deputy in
2 the chamber of citizens in B&H Parliament and a member of the SDS
3 Main Board.
4 In the first half of 1992, Mr. Kupresanin was elected president
5 of the Assembly of the community of municipalities of Bosanska Krajina
6 and in the second half of the same year, president of the Assembly of the
7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, ARK. After the war, he reactivated the
8 work of the Homeland Front, and on June the 1st, 2013, he retired.
9 This Union of Municipalities of Bosanska Krajina with acronym
10 ZOBK was established primarily for economic reasons and included 17
11 municipalities. After World War II, Banja Luka was economically the
12 second most powerful town after Sarajevo and the region had several
13 hundred million dollars of commercial surplus, but all this money went to
14 the central bank of Sarajevo.
15 The ZOBK Assembly adopted its own statute and there were members
16 of the different parties and everybody worked for the same idea, keeping
17 for the people of Krajina the natural resources of the area. The basic
18 goal was being able to follow events in the sphere of the economy,
19 politics, and culture.
20 On June 28th, 1991, the ZOBK Assembly adopted a declaration for
21 the unification of the two Krajinas: RSK and Bosnian Krajina. The ZOBK
22 Assembly had Muslims and Croats who were delegated by municipalities in
23 which they were deputies for the SDA and HDZ until such a time that they
24 stopped coming to the sessions at the instruction of the SDA and HDZ
25 central offices from Sarajevo.
1 Vojislav Kupresanin, in his capacity of president of the ZOBK
2 Assembly, expressed his wish for the ZOBK to be joined by various Muslim
3 and Croat municipalities because ZOBK goal was not to create a Serbian
5 Mr. Kupresanin personally contacted Mr. Fikret Abdic, the
6 director of Agrokomerc and a prominent Muslim leader of European
7 orientation because he wanted this food -- his food company to be
8 supplied with the raw material from the area. Unfortunately, Mr. Abdic
9 never replied to these calls.
10 In September 1991, the statute of the ARK was adopted. In this
11 statute, all nationalities were recognised as equal and municipalities
12 with a majority of non-Serbian people were enabled to join the ARK. In
13 order to protect the Serbian people in Slavonia, in Croatia, who were
14 exposed to the most heinous crimes, the Serbs in Krajina turned to the
15 JNA for protection. After JNA General Uzelac refused to intervene to
16 defend the Serbs, the ARK decided to declare a mobilisation.
17 Later on, ARK Crisis Staff was established, even though the
18 Republika Srpska government ordered the formation of the Crisis Staff per
19 municipalities not per regions. The reason for the formation of the ARK
20 Crisis Staff was the tense and alarming situation in B&H. Dr. Karadzic
21 charged Mr. Kupresanin with the responsibility of influencing the
22 leadership in Prijedor to close down investigation centres.
23 Mr. Kupresanin asked those authorities to shut down and to improve the
24 prisoners' living conditions until its disbandment. After that,
25 Mr. Kupresanin toured to Manjaca prisoner of war camp in order to check
1 living conditions there.
2 Furthermore, Mr. Kupresanin negotiated an end to the fighting in
3 Kotor Varos, in agreement with the commander of the VRS operational group
4 and with the chief of the security service centre in Banja Luka.
5 And that was the end of the statement summary of Mr. Kupresanin.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions,
7 please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 First of all, I would kindly ask to have 1D2036 on our screens,
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Lukic, could you assist us, that takes us
12 to what paragraph of the statement, if any?
13 I found it already; it's paragraph 5.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Kupresanin, what we have before us is a transcript of an
16 audio recording. You saw this during the proofing. We cannot see what
17 it is on the basis of these first two pages, so could we please have the
18 third page in both versions.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, we need line 6 onwards and
20 in English line 8 onwards.
21 Q. Do you know who Mr. Sveto Kovacevic is?
22 A. Yes, I know. I think he was president of the municipality or
23 president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Celinac at
24 the time.
25 Q. Mr. Sveto Kovacevic here addresses the deputies, and he says:
1 "I have the honour of opening the constitutional session of the
2 community of Bosanska Krajina municipalities."
3 Did you participate in this session? Can you remember that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It is stated in line 15 in B/C/S and line 18 of the English
6 version that Mr. Sveto Kovacevic informed everybody that the
7 representatives of the HDZ, the SDA, and the SDS were all present at this
8 session as delegates. Do you remember whether there were representatives
9 of Muslims and Croats at that session?
10 A. After my election, I addressed them, I greeted them, and I
11 congratulated them on the fact that the community of Bosanska Krajina
12 municipalities had been established.
13 Q. And now on the same page from line 26 onward, and in English it
14 is in line 31 and line 32, it says that one of the tasks of the session
15 is to elect the president of the municipality.
16 Was the president of the community of Bosanska Krajina
17 municipalities elected?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was elected?
20 A. I was elected.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to page 4 in both
22 versions, please --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- before we continue, neither in the statement nor
1 on page 3 where you took us nor anywhere else I find a time-frame when
2 was this meeting held.
3 Could we -- could the witness tell us when and what date this
4 meeting was held.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 24th of April, 1991.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] On this page, we see that Dr. Dusko Jaksic
9 addressed the gathering. He was introduced as the director of the
10 economic institute. Did you know Mr. Jaksic?
11 A. Yes, he was the president of that institute as a matter of fact.
12 Q. In lines 22 through 26 in B/C/S and in English from line 30
13 onwards, and that bit spills over to the following page, Mr. Jaksic says
14 here that he doesn't belong to any of the ruling parties.
15 What was Mr. Jaksic's role? Why was he there? Why was he
16 brought to that meeting?
17 A. He was perceived as the biggest expert in economy. He had a
18 Ph.D. in economics, he was a scientist. His presentation was not only
19 his presentation, it reflected the way a number of experts were thinking
20 and that's what he presented at that Assembly meeting.
21 Q. His speech was rather long.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 11 in B/C/S and 12
23 in English. We're interested in line 29 in English and line 26 in B/C/S.
24 Q. It is recorded here that the first speaker, Mr. Jaksic, said
25 Banja Luka must not replace Sarajevo.
1 Further on, he continues in line 31 in B/C/S and on page 13 of
2 the English, starting with line 12 onwards, starting with the very end of
3 line 12, we read:
4 "I'd like to see Krajina as a good region and that it becomes the
5 route of a good and stable Bosnia and Herzegovina," obviously in
7 Do you agree that that was the objective behind the establishment
8 of that region?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Throughout the entire transcript, there is a lot to be shown; for
11 example, page 15 in B/C/S that I would like to show first and the same
12 bit can be found on page 16 in English. We're interested in line 15 in
13 B/C/S and line 31 in English. It says here:
14 "So it is obvious that there is a strong economic reason for us a
15 regionalise, to link-up, to join certain functions, to unite at the
16 region level" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, from both my colleagues, I received a
18 short question: What's the relevance of this? And it won't be the first
19 one --
20 MR. LUKIC: We want to show what was the purpose actually of
21 establishment -- establishment of this region, but --
22 JUDGE ORIE: The region or the economic co-operation?
23 MR. LUKIC: Region.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The region?
25 MR. LUKIC: The region.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there may have been economic reasons.
2 Is that contested by the Prosecution, that economic reasons may
3 have played a role, perhaps not the exclusive role, but -- and that in
4 1991, various parties were willing to co-operate?
5 MR. TRALDI: We don't dispute that at the outset economic motives
6 were one component of the decision to establish such regions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And that is reflected in this meeting, that
8 component, at least from what we've seen until now?
9 MR. TRALDI: I agree what people are saying is reflected on the
10 transcript, yes --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
12 MR. TRALDI: -- and that they're describing what we've just --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: I will then shortly finish with this document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: If we can only have page 20 in B/C/S and page 22 in
17 English version. [Interpretation] Line 7 in B/C/S and line 4 in English,
19 Q. The speaker is recorded as saying:
20 "If we don't care who lives in these areas, if we disregard who's
21 Serb, who's Croat, who's Muslim, we'll hopefully still remain living
22 together. But it's important that wherever anybody lives, be it a Serb,
23 a Croat, a Muslim, that this person lives well, that's our main goal."
24 Do you remember that that was precisely the intention? Was there
25 a hidden agenda? What was the intention behind the establishment of the
2 A. You lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the state which was
3 called Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It had its laws, it had its
4 constitution. We observed that constitution and, according to Article 4
5 of that constitution, we were allowed to make associations for economic
6 reasons, and I mean several municipalities could unite in order to
7 control taxes, health care, the education system, and other things like
8 that. The main reason and the main idea was to improve the economic
9 situation and to improve the life of the people who lived there. We
10 wanted to spend fewer hours in Sarajevo and more time in the region where
11 the resources were and where the income was generated. That was that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you started your answer by saying: "You
13 lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."
14 Who is "you" in this context?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant I lived --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when I said "you," I meant all
18 of us, we.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. We would tender this document into
22 evidence, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of the document?
24 Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. LUKIC: Maybe we can sit afterwards, Mr. Traldi and me, and
1 try to cut down this -- whatever is not necessary.
2 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to do that, Your Honours.
3 MR. LUKIC: SO just then to MFI the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It will be MFI'd.
5 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: 1D2036 receives MFI number D853, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D853 is marked for identification.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: In relation with paragraph 14 of the statement of
10 Mr. Kupresanin, the Prosecution asked me to lead the evidence on the
11 document marked as 21323. So I would like to have this document on our
12 screens, please; 65 ter 21323.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You were seeking the underlying document to be shown
14 rather than the statement, paragraph 14.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, underlying the document. Again --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have 65 ter 21323 on our screens.
17 And then for English, the English version, please.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, this is an intercepted
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're interested in page 3.
23 Q. This conversation took place between Radovan Karadzic and
24 probably Nenad Stevandic on the 31st of August, 1991. I would like to
25 look at page 3 in B/C/S and 4 in English. There is a reference to the
1 Krajina referendum prior to that.
2 First of all, let me ask you, did Mr. Karadzic oppose the
3 unification of the two Krajinas, the one in Bosnia and Herzegovina and
4 the one in Croatia?
5 A. The idea for the Krajinas to be united in Croatia and Bosnia was
6 the desire of the Serbs on the both banks of the Una River for a long
7 time. Radovan Karadzic was against that and he fought for
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole. He disputed the idea of a referendum that
9 would pose that question.
10 Q. On this page in B/C/S, line 8, and in English, line 7, it is
11 recorded that Radovan Karadzic said:
12 "What we want is to keep Bosnia peaceful and out of it -- we have
13 reasons for staying out of it."
14 And now on the following page in English, which is page 5,
15 Mr. Karadzic's inter -- collocutor on line 8, which is line 30 in B/C/S
16 on the same page, he says:
17 "... if Alija announces a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we
18 would react and announce our own referendum in Krajina."
19 Mr. Karadzic is recorded as saying:
20 "There is no need," and then he swears. And then he says, "God
21 damn, they never listen."
22 And then that same person says:
23 "I'm not involved in all that, Brdjanin is handling that."
24 And so on and so forth. The conversation continues along the
25 same lines.
1 Was Mr. Karadzic always against the unification of those two
3 A. Mr. Karadzic ran in the elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and when
4 he did that he showed that he wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to be a state
5 where Serbs would be able to exercise their basic rights, to be
6 protected, where the Serbs would be able to develop and advance.
7 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 21323 receives Exhibit
10 Number D854, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D854 is admitted.
12 MR. LUKIC: And one more document, Your Honours. I will be
13 finished with the ...
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 MR. LUKIC: Another document is in connection with paragraph 41
16 of Mr. Kupresanin's statement, and I would kindly ask to have
17 65 ter number on our screens, 16598.
18 [Interpretation] This has to do with financing the army; that
19 that's paragraph of the statement. Also, there's a reference to
20 logistics; logistical support to the Army of Republika Srpska, that is.
21 While commenting on this document in his statement,
22 Mr. Kupresanin pointed out that he had never seen that document, or
23 rather, that he doesn't remember it. However --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: He can tell us what you're telling us.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, he said what it was that he
1 knew so now I'm going to ask him.
2 Q. You see the document before you, Mr. Kupresanin?
3 A. I have trouble reading it, so let me try with my glasses now.
4 Q. The 23rd of June, 1992 is the date. It was sent by the
5 1st Krajina Corps to the Assembly and the government of the Autonomous
6 Region of Bosanska Krajina.
7 A. I understand. I understand.
8 Q. In the first paragraph, it says:
9 "As the command of the 1st Krajina Corps, we are compelled to
10 address you and inform you that we have received a document from the
11 Government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, saying that they will
12 continue funding the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH only until the
13 20th of May, 1992 ..."
14 The entire document goes along these lines. This is what I'm
15 going to ask you: Do you remember this problem? Do you remember how it
16 was resolved?
17 A. Well, it didn't appear only in Banja Luka, that problem. It was
18 in all the municipalities. Quite simply, the Yugoslav army was
19 withdrawing to Yugoslavia from the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And then
20 we were compelled to make our own army, the Army of Republika Srpska, and
21 to support it. Since Republika Srpska had not been created as a state
22 yet, then it was the municipal budgets that had to support the army. So
23 this was only to be expected, this document, and it circulated through
24 all the municipalities.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kupresanin.
1 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document as well, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 16598 receives Exhibit
4 Number D855, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
6 MR. LUKIC: I do not have any more questions for Mr. Kupresanin.
7 Only if you want me to deal with the associated exhibits, we will not
8 propose three of the documents from the original list.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but still a large number remaining, a
10 relatively large number.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yeah -- that's that type of the statement,
12 Your Honour. That statement would not be understood properly without the
13 documents since this gentleman commented on the overall situation through
14 the documents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll consider that. But before we even move
16 to that, I would have a short question in relation to the paragraph that
17 we just looked at, that is paragraph 41, and your answers in relation to
18 the -- to what the document you were not familiar with are about.
19 Witness, in paragraph 41, I read:
20 "Given that the central state was not functioning, someone had to
21 provide logistical support so the burden fell on the municipalities ..."
22 The "central state," was that a reference to the Federal Republic
23 of Yugoslavia? Or was it a reference to the newly established -- what
24 then became the Republika Srpska?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the newly established
1 Republika Srpska.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although what was read from the document at
3 this moment was about the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia not giving any
4 further support.
5 Could I then ask you whether - and then I'm focusing primarily on
6 the paragraph you were asked about - was any support received in whatever
7 way by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which would support the
8 operations and the functioning of the VRS?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 20th of May, the Yugoslav
10 army withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, the state of Yugoslavia
11 also withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina. What remained of the Army of
12 Yugoslavia in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina became ours; the
13 technical assets, the equipment that remained. We took that - it
14 belonged to us then - and we attached that to the Army of
15 Republika Srpska. I know that from Yugoslavia we most often received aid
16 in terms of food, medicine, clothing, and these hospitals in Serbia
17 treated our patients if we could not manage that in Republika Srpska. So
18 they helped in different ways.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say "food, medicine, clothing," are you
20 meaning -- or are you including food for the army, medicine for soldiers,
21 and clothing for members of the army?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we had to do that too,
23 Republika Srpska, except that Yugoslavia paid for a number of officers.
24 All the rest became the burden of Republika Srpska. Some of the officers
25 who were in the army, and the higher officers withdrew to Yugoslavia and
1 towns in Yugoslavia quite -- actually, very few remained in our parts.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to go to the line where you say that
3 the central state was not functioning. Does that mean that the newly
4 established republic in no way provided any money and, for example,
5 ammunition, or was it just that you were entirely left to the local
6 communities to provide you with whatever was needed?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at first, yes, that way. As
8 for arms, ammunition, we had that; however, as far as food is concerned
9 and some other things that have to do with the army, clothing, then that
10 was done by the local organs of government in the municipality. Until
11 the Republika Srpska was properly established, then some of these
12 resources arrived through the Ministry of Defence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the time-frame from paragraph 41 is rather
14 limited, that is, in the very early stages of the existence of the newly
15 established republic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.
18 Mr. Lukic, perhaps we later deal with the associated exhibits.
19 Let's see what happens during cross-examination and then, at the end,
20 we'll deal with those.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps Mr. Lukic could put the numbers of the
22 three documents he's not going to tender here on the record so that we
23 have a clear picture.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we are not going to tender 09690,
25 65 ter --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Hold on, one second, please. 09 --
2 MR. LUKIC: -- 690.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm trying to find it on the list.
4 MR. LUKIC: In the first page.
5 JUDGE ORIE: First page.
6 MR. LUKIC: Fifth document from the bottom.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm apparently looking at a different document.
8 Just -- if you just mention them.
9 And then perhaps we already could ask the witness to be escorted
10 out of the courtroom.
11 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Kupresanin.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 MR. LUKIC: The next one is 65 ter number 17221; and the third
14 one is 65 ter number 20099.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
16 We'll take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: I didn't finish --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: What I want to inform Your Honours, that our next
24 witness will be Mr. Lalovic after Mr. Kupresanin when he finishes; it
25 will be on Monday.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And let me just have a look. There was some
2 confusion about another matter.
3 MR. LUKIC: We will just push him in front of the two witnesses
4 from Prijedor area.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it will not be Mr. -- the other witness --
6 I didn't mention his name because there was some confusion about --
7 MR. LUKIC: He does not seek protective measures.
8 JUDGE ORIE: He does not seek. And I think they were rescinded
9 in the Karadzic case, if I'm --
10 MR. LUKIC: And in the Stakic case, I think. He testified in
11 Stakic case as well, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: He testified in Stakic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Without protective measures.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, there are no protective
18 MR. LUKIC: And one more thing.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: On our scheduling. We provided one witness for the
21 14th or 15th of January, so it's the one witness we could provide in that
22 week where the Orthodox new year is.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at it.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And have you informed Chamber staff who it would be
1 and a time, et cetera?
2 MR. LUKIC: I was just informed about this so we will inform --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we expect you to provide full information about
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, just one clarification, when you were
7 reading the witness summary of Mr. Kupresanin, on page 8, line 21, you
8 said - and it is accordingly recorded - Vojislav Kupresanin. Could you
9 please clarify which is his right first name, Vojo or Vojislav?
10 MR. LUKIC: Obviously I made a mistake. Your Honour, it's Vojo
11 on his statement, and Mr. Kupresanin, when he introduced himself, said
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that correct, Mr. Kupresanin?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you're ready to cross-examine the
18 witness, I'll introduce you to him.
19 Mr. Kupresanin, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You
20 find him to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
24 Q. Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Sir, you testified in the Karadzic case just over a year ago. Is
2 it your position that you told the truth in that testimony?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001;
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. It's also your position that you told the truth in that
8 interview; right?
9 A. Well, it was so long ago. There's a lot of it that I don't
10 remember, but I think so.
11 Q. It was a long time ago and much closer to the events described in
12 your statement. Would it be fair to say that your recollection of those
13 events was clearer in 2001 than it is today?
14 A. Well, probably, yes.
15 Q. And, sir, I'm going to start with the last topic you discussed
16 with Mr. Lukic, the provision of logistical support to VRS units in the
18 Now, this Chamber received evidence just two days ago that the
19 1st Krajina Corps continued receiving logistical support, both weaponry
20 and financial, from the SFRY through the Main Staff. Now, you weren't
21 part of that chain of support yourself; right?
22 A. Well, this is the first time I hear of this.
23 Q. And so you're not aware of the magnitude or extent of the support
24 that the VRS or the 1st Krajina Corps was receiving; right?
25 A. No. I know that the Yugoslav army, with its generals, and
1 Blagoje Adzic was one of the key generals, they came to us to take the
2 weapons that were located in our parts. They asked for aircraft, tanks,
3 rockets. That's what they were looking for. And they didn't bring in
4 anything. I don't know them bringing anything.
5 Q. You weren't a member of the VRS in May 1992; right?
6 A. May 1992, no, no.
7 Q. The Chamber has also received evidence that VRS forces in the ARK
8 had large amounts of tanks, rockets, other types of weaponry at that
9 time; you're certainly aware of that, right?
10 A. Well, I knew that they had weapons that were not there
11 momentarily, but when Yugoslavia disintegrated lots of these weapons from
12 Croatia and Slovenia were brought to our area, to Sarajevo, to all parts
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Brought there -- many were brought from Croatia to the area of
15 the ARK by the JNA; right?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Those weapons were inherited by the VRS when it was created in
18 May 1992; right?
19 A. Well, probably.
20 Q. Your position at the time was that this gave the VRS a massive
21 military advantage; right?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And since you mentioned tanks, I'm going to look at just one
24 example of something you said during the war.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 02366. This is going to be a
1 transcript of the 24th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly. I'm
2 going to ask for page 77 in the English and 53 in the B/C/S.
3 Q. This is a portion of a speech that you gave at the Assembly, and
4 in the bottom paragraph on our screens in both languages, you say:
5 "Now we go back to this. We had aviation, howitzers, tanks,
6 cannons, but what did Muslims have? Some gun, some machine-gun that they
7 bought from the Serbs, and homemade guns."
8 This is an example of you expressing the position we discussed a
9 moment ago, that, at the beginning of the war, the VRS had a massive
10 military advantage; right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I believe this Assembly session has
13 already been marked for identification as P6921 and that number has been
14 reserved for excerpts from it. We'll just make sure this is among those
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second.
17 Mr. Mladic, you're not there to give instructions for the
18 curtains to be pulled up. You're not in the position to give any
19 instructions. If there's any matter you would like to raise, then you
20 can do that through counsel. Switch off your microphone, switch off.
21 Then let's get back to -- yes, this will then be a part of that
22 selection to be made from this Assembly session. That's hereby on the
23 record, also what you read to the witness. Please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn back to your positions now.
1 You mention in paragraph 1 of your statement that you were
2 president of the Assembly of the ZOBK and later --
3 A. Yes, I was, yes.
4 Q. -- of the ARK. In both cases --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In both cases, your vice-president of the Assembly was the same
7 man; right?
8 A. It was Brdjanin, Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 Q. The ARK Assembly also had an Executive Council beginning early in
10 1992; right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And who was the president of the Executive Council?
13 A. Nikola Erceg. First it was Andjelko Grahovac, and then he was
14 replaced. And then Nikola Erceg came to that position.
15 Q. You don't mention your position in your statement, but you were a
16 member of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. And the president of that Crisis Staff was Mr. Brdjanin?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. As president, he would preside over all the meetings of the ARK
21 Crisis Staff; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He would propose the topics to be discussed?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. When a meeting was going to be held, you would be notified by
1 phone; right?
2 A. Well, it depended.
3 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 31770, page 23 in the English, 33
4 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And as it comes up, this will be a portion of your OTP interview.
6 We see at the bottom of the page -- we had previously seen at the
7 bottom of the page in the English but we now no longer have the right
8 pages. Can we have 23 in the English, 33 in the B/C/S.
9 At the bottom of the page in the English and the top of the page
10 in the B/C/S, you're being asked first:
11 "Isn't it correct that even though you did not attend some
12 meetings, but you were present in most of those meetings, ARK
13 Crisis Staff and War Presidency meetings?"
14 And you respond:
15 "It's possible."
16 You were asked:
17 "How would you receive information about a meeting that is going
18 to be held, the ARK Crisis Staff meeting?"
19 And you say:
20 "On the phone, by the phone."
21 And you're asked:
22 "And you, who'd call you on the phone to inform about the
24 And you answer -- and I think we turn to the next page in the
25 English here:
1 "I think again it would be Radic, Radic's -- or it was Radic's
3 Did that refresh your recollection as to how you would be
4 notified about Crisis Staff meetings?
5 A. Well, I've already said, there were different ways: By
6 telephone, during meetings. The important thing was that I was informed.
7 Q. And just for the clarity of the record, Radic's secretary who
8 sometimes informed you, that was Predrag Radic's secretary; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what was his position?
11 A. He was the president of Banja Luka municipality.
12 Q. Someone from the 1st Krajina Corps, either General Talic or
13 someone deputised to attend in his place, would always attend ARK
14 Crisis Staff meetings; right?
15 A. If the general himself was not there, his deputy would be, yes.
16 Q. And in 1992, you often saw General Talic visiting the municipal
17 building in Banja Luka; right?
18 A. I saw him only once at a Crisis Staff meeting. He may have been
19 there several times, but I didn't see him. And, yes, I did see him in
20 the municipality building.
21 Q. You often saw him in the municipality building, setting aside the
22 reasons he was there; correct?
23 A. I believe that he visited the president of the municipality and
24 perhaps somebody else as well, maybe the president of the Executive Board
25 who was in charge of the money.
1 Q. Setting aside who he was visiting, so I'm not asking you about
2 that at the moment, he was often in the municipal building; right?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And Stojan Zupljanin, the head of the CSB, also was often in the
5 municipal building; right?
6 A. I saw him as well.
7 Q. And either he or someone else from the police would attend every
8 Crisis Staff meeting; right?
9 A. I did not see Stojan Zupljanin ever at the Crisis Staff meeting,
10 at least at those meetings that I attended. I saw Djuro Golic, his
11 deputy. I didn't see Stojan Zupljanin at a Crisis Staff meeting ever.
12 Q. You would often see him together with the Crisis Staff president,
13 Mr. Brdjanin; right?
14 A. I can't say that I saw him often. I didn't even see the
15 president of the Crisis Staff often. I suppose that they did
16 communicate, but I didn't see them together.
17 Q. Well, in the same document, 65 ter 31770, if we could have
18 page 28 in the English and 40 in the B/C/S.
19 So at the top of the page, line 5 in the B/C/S, you can see
20 you're being asked:
21 "Did you see Radoslav Brdjanin and Stojan Zupljanin coming
22 together in the municipal building?"
23 And you answered:
24 "I didn't see them in -- in the building, municipal building, but
25 I would see them in the hotel. I would often see them in hotels."
1 That's the truth, what you said in 2001, that you often saw
2 Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Stojan Zupljanin together; right?
3 A. It is possible.
4 Q. At the moment I'm not asking whether it's possible. What you
5 said in 2001 on this subject, that was the truth, you often saw them
6 together in 1991 and 1992; right?
7 A. I suppose that that was the case. I can't remember anymore.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, under the circumstances, I'd tender
10 this page of the witness's interview.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6994, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 MR. TRALDI: And ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, have you uploaded the separate page because we
17 have now -- of course, now it's the whole of the document which is in
18 evidence because this is how you uploaded it, and we are talking about 77
19 pages, Mr. Traldi.
20 MR. TRALDI: I'm not seeking to tender the entire interview,
21 Mr. President. At the same time, I'd suggest it would be most efficient,
22 as this may recur, to upload a version only after the completion of the
23 witness's testimony.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. And we'll then instruct
25 Madam Registrar to replace the 77-page document by the one page then
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to play a clip from
4 Exhibit P4338.
5 Q. And, sir, this will be a portion of a rally held in Banja Luka in
7 MR. TRALDI: I'm told for the booths that I should mention this
8 is the third clip in the transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And has it -- has the text been verified already or
10 should we play it twice, Mr. Traldi?
11 MR. TRALDI: I'm in your hands. I'm reminded that it is an
12 admitted exhibit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's an admitted exhibit. I apologise.
14 MR. TRALDI: I'm told we're having a technical problem, and so
15 I'll move on to my next topic and we'll simply come back to this.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do as you suggest.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. So, sir, I'm going to turn then to the topic of regionalisation.
19 Now, there were two regional bodies in the -- established in the
20 Bosnian Krajina, first the ZOBK and then the ARK; right?
21 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, it was one body but it changed its
22 name. First it was the community of municipalities of Bosnian Krajina,
23 and then it changed its name to the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina,
24 but it was one and the same body.
25 Q. Now, you were describing that transition in your OTP interview,
1 and you said:
2 "All of a sudden it happened that it was allowed to establish
3 such a region."
4 That happened in September 1991, that it was suddenly allowed to
5 establish an autonomous region; right?
6 A. Not in September, but in April, on the 24th of April, that's when
7 the region was established. This is the truth. I don't know about
9 Q. Sorry, sir, I'm distinguishing now, and I think the date you're
10 referring to is the date of the creation of the ZOBK, the community;
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. The region, on the other hand, the ARK, that was established in
14 September; right?
15 A. Very well.
16 Q. And when you said in your interview:
17 "All of a sudden it was allowed to establish such a region ..."
18 It also became allowed in September of 1991; right?
19 A. It was prescribed by the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 The Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina provided for the right to
21 establish a region, and then when we were going to do it, that was up to
22 us. It had nothing to do with either the month of April or the month of
24 Q. Well, speaking specifically of the ARK, I'd like to look at
25 65 ter 10741.
1 Now, this is a document coming from the Sarajevo city board of
2 the SDS, and looking just below point 1, we read:
3 "By this we appoint the Staff for observation of implementation
4 of the Decision ..."
5 And in the first point:
6 "On promulgation of autonomous regions as unquestionable parts of
7 the federal state of Yugoslavia and as constituent parts of the federal
8 unit of Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."
9 So the SDS board in Sarajevo is referring to a specific decision
10 taken to promulgate autonomous regions; right?
11 A. Not the regions, but the SAO. The only region where I was
12 present was the ARK, and the rest were Serbian autonomous provinces or --
13 yes, the Serbian autonomous provinces.
14 Q. Now, this refers to, in point 2, a decision and conclusions
15 adopted at the Pale symposium of municipal, regional, and republic SDS
16 organs of 7 September 1991. As a member of the Main Board, you would
17 have attended that symposium; right?
18 A. From the moment it was established, the Serbian Democratic Party
19 had two Main Boards. I did not attend the first board -- or, rather, I
20 was not its member. It was only the second board that I was a member of.
21 I don't know when that happened and -- well, there is a possibility that
22 I was a member thereof.
23 MR. TRALDI: If you'd give me just a moment. I apologise,
24 Your Honours.
25 Q. So when you say in paragraph 1 of your statement that you were a
1 member of the SDS Main Board, do you recall the dates today on which you
2 were a member?
3 A. I can't remember. It was perhaps a year later that I became a
4 member of the Main Board. The first Main Board may have been in place
5 for a year, and then a year after that a new Main Board was established
6 and I may have been a member of that.
7 Q. So the new Main Board -- in fact, that would have been
8 established at the anniversary session of the SDS in July of 1991; right?
9 A. Quite possible at the Assembly, because the Assembly established
10 it. I believe that that was on the 12th of July in -- at the Holiday Inn
12 Q. So then you were a member of the Main Board by the time -- sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness add what year he's referring to.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That could have been in 1991. But
15 I was a member of the Assembly, not of the Main Board. And maybe at that
16 Assembly meeting, I was also selected as a member of the Main Board.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. As of the date we see here, September 1991, you were in fact a
19 member of the SDS Main Board, weren't you?
20 A. I don't know when the second Main Board was established, if it
21 was then. And if it says that I was there, then I was.
22 Q. Do you recall attending this Pale symposium of SDS organs on the
23 7th of September, 1991?
24 A. I can't remember that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi -- let me just have a look. The
1 correction of the year in paragraph 1 was from 1992 to 199 --
2 MR. TRALDI: 1990.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 90. Now, we are talking about the 12th of July --
4 let me just have a look.
5 I asked you what year. You said it was 1991, not 1990?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first Main Board was set up in
7 1990, and then a reformed Main Board was established in 1991. Some
8 people left, some people were recruited into that new Main Board, and all
9 of that happened on the 12th of July.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, one question: Was the new board -- is it
11 just that there were new members, that it still was the Main Board of the
12 SDS but different people in that Main Board, or was it a different
13 institution, different body?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the same body. Some people
15 left, some people joined, that was all.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI: Before I do, Your Honour, I'd tender this document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10741 receives Exhibit Number P6995,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P6995 is admitted.
23 MR. TRALDI: And mindful of the date of the symposium we just
24 looked at, the 7th of September, I'd ask that we call up 65 ter 20232.
25 Q. As it comes up, another member of the SDS Main Board at the time
1 was Jovan Tintor; right?
2 A. "Da."
3 Q. Now, this is a conversation between him and someone named
4 Mirko Jovic. Toward the bottom of page in both languages, Mr. Tintor
6 "You know what? We have no, we have no specifics. There will be
7 changes tomorrow ... we passed ... we passed a decision yesterday that
8 Bosnia can remain ... err ... officially ... but we'll split it into
9 Serbian Bosnia, Croatian Bosnia, Muslim Bosnia. Everyone should have
10 their own and ... that'll explode like a bomb tomorrow."
11 He's describing the decision reached on the 7th of September,
12 1991; right?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: I'm not objecting to the question. I just want to
15 know if there is more documents that would be used and that are not on
16 the list? This document is not on the list. There is many documents,
17 but not this one.
18 MR. TRALDI: We'll double-check that, and I'm happy to confer
19 with Mr. Lukic at the break with my outline and the list, but I don't
20 have the list in front of me.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if any problem remains, Mr. Lukic, we'll
22 hear after the break.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI: And I apologise to Mr. Lukic obviously for the
1 Q. Sir, when Mr. Tintor refers to a decision that will explode like
2 a bomb, he's referring to the decision on the 7th of September, 1991;
4 A. I know Jovan Tintor, but I also know Mirko Jovic. Mirko Jovic
5 did not live in Republika Srpska. He lived in the Republic of Serbia in
6 Stara Pazova --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please answer the question,
8 whether, as far as you're aware of, Mr. Tintor refers to the decision
9 mentioned by Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. LUKIC: Now I would object. Because how would he know?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if he doesn't know, he'll tell us.
12 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Yeah, asking him to --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't. I
14 can't remember.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's the same question you didn't object to in the
16 first place.
17 MR. LUKIC: Now he was asked whether he knows what other men
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not -- let's not split hairs over that
20 at this moment.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would tender this document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 MR. LUKIC: We would object to have this document in the
1 JUDGE ORIE: And the basis for your objection, Mr. Lukic?
2 MR. LUKIC: Not -- there was no connection established and he
3 knows nothing about this conversation, or he maybe knows but it is not
4 established. I don't know.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It is, I think, common practice in this courtroom
6 that evidence closely linked to events described by a witness, even if a
7 witness is not aware of that, can be tendered and will be admitted in
8 that context.
9 MR. LUKIC: And --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- if there is any issue --
11 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, I don't have that document in front
12 of me since it's something new. It's not on the list and it's not given
13 to me.
14 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to postpone my request.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different objection. Then you should say:
16 Could I have my time to respond because I don't have it at this moment.
17 That's different from the objection you raised.
18 MR. LUKIC: But I could --
19 JUDGE ORIE: But this is granted. We'll mark it for
20 identification, and we'll hear from you -- we'll hear from you once you
21 have had the time to have a closer look at it.
22 Madam Registrar, the document would be ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 20232 receives MFI P6996,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. TRALDI: Sir -- and can we have 65 ter 08469.
3 Q. And this will be the 12 July 1991 session of the SDS that I was
4 referring to.
5 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 126 in the English and 115
6 in the B/C/S, please.
7 Q. We see here that 45 members have been elected to the Main Board
8 at this session. If I direct your attention to the name at number 12,
9 does that refresh your recollection as to whether it was in fact July
10 1991 when you yourself were elected to the SDS Main Board?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And the gentleman at number 8, we see Mr. Tintor was also elected
13 at that time; right?
14 A. I don't remember. I know that I was elected.
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, it's a long document. I just ask that
16 it be marked for identification at this point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And you would then make a further selection later?
18 MR. TRALDI: I would, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08469 receives MFI P6997, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06875, and I can tell Mr. Lukic
23 that this one isn't on my list because it's on his. And this should be
24 the statute of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. If we could have page 2
25 in both languages at the top.
1 Q. And we see here at the top that nine days after that symposium at
2 Pale was when the Autonomous Region of Krajina was established, right,
3 the 16th of September, 1991?
4 A. I don't think that it had anything to do with the establishment
5 of the autonomous region; I mean that meeting at Pale. We established
6 the autonomous region even before the political position was voiced. I
7 don't know what happened next, I wasn't there, I don't remember. And the
8 instructions that you have referred to and that you relate to September,
9 I don't know anything about that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, witness --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it wasn't the SDS who told us to
12 set up the autonomous region --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- let me stop you there. The simple question was
14 whether this was the 16th of September, and Mr. Traldi says that that's
15 nine days after the symposium. You know, new year six days after at
16 least our Christmas, that doesn't mean that new year is caused by
17 Christmas. There was no question about a causal relationship; it was
18 just establishing a frame. And whatever Mr. Traldi wants to conclude
19 from that -- he didn't ask you -- and we understand it to be just those
21 Please proceed. And, Mr. Traldi, you are aware that if you
22 wanted to suggest something, then of course it should be made explicit
23 and then we would -- it sounds a bit like argument, it must be a
24 relation, although it was not part of your question.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this be admitted as an
2 associated exhibit. It should get a D number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well -- yes, it was on the list of associated
4 exhibits; therefore, we do not wait further.
5 The D number for this document, Madam Registrar, would be ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: D856, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D856 is admitted.
8 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 03173.
9 Q. Now, we see here -- and there are a number of articles on the
10 B/C/S page. Do you see the boxed article regarding the declaration of an
11 autonomous region?
12 I see you've nodded, but can you confirm orally that you've seen
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, this is from Javnost and it's dated 14 September 1991. And
16 the article explains that on the 12th of September, 1991, the community
17 of municipalities of eastern and old Herzegovina decided to proclaim the
18 Serbian Autonomous District of Herzegovina which would be an integral
19 part of the federal state of Yugoslavia and the federal unit of Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina.
21 This is also just a few days after the 7 September conference;
23 A. Right.
24 Q. So I'm putting to you that it is not a coincidence that the
25 25 September decision from the Sarajevo board refers to a 7 September
1 decision, a 7 September symposium, it says a decision was taken to
2 establish autonomous regions, five days later SAO Herzegovina declared,
3 nine days later the ARK declared. I'm putting to you that that's not a
4 coincidence; that's because these regions were set up at central
5 direction. That's true, isn't it?
6 A. My region where I was president has nothing to do with this date
7 or the Serb party.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was not the question.
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do we understand the answer to be that -- that
11 you consider it to be a coincidence that these regions were set up and
12 that you are not aware or even deny that they were set up at a central
13 direction. Is that -- you deny that, is that -- or are you not aware of
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about myself and my region.
16 It has nothing to do with the centre and I don't know about the others.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's a clear answer.
18 Then Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03173 receives Exhibit Number P6998,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
22 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have 65 ter 20559; this is another
23 associated exhibit. And this will be an intercepted conversation between
24 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Stevandic dated the 11th of January, 1992. Turning
25 to page 6 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. Mr. Karadzic, President Karadzic, asks Mr. Stevandic:
2 "Well, who invented the regionalisation, was it them or did I
3 invent it?"
4 And Stevandic explains what the leaders in the ARK want, and
5 Karadzic responds:
6 "Listen Nenad, well they cannot... well, we have all of that in
7 the plans, we have all moves in the envelopes, they must not do it before
8 we do it in the whole of Bosnia. Why are they playing smart? They are
9 explaining my policy to me..."
10 And if we turn now to page 11, page 7 in the B/C/S, Stevandic
12 "Let me tell you we can't make a round of three houses if we
13 don't support the Krajina option."
14 And Karadzic says:
15 "What do you mean by the Krajina option?"
16 Stevandic says:
17 "The option of that regionalisation and that matter."
18 And President Karadzic says:
19 "The regionalisation has been carried out. What else needs to be
21 Stevandic responds:
22 "Well, Krajina institutions, specifically the government ..."
23 And President Karadzic says:
24 "Well, it will be ... well, why are they being smartasses?! That
25 was my idea, not theirs! ..."
1 What President Karadzic is expressing in this conversation is
2 that regionalisation was his policy; right?
3 A. I don't think it was his policy. You see that he was late with
4 these proposals and ideas. We were ahead of him. And it's not correct
5 that it's his idea. The entire Krajina was in favour of regions.
6 President Karadzic was not the SDS on his own. The party had its organs,
7 made these decisions and all that. But we, before the SDS, all of us,
8 even other parties too, and all parties in the Krajina, we were in favour
9 of regions in the Krajina, at least at first. He didn't like that.
10 That's the way it was.
11 Q. The reason you and Mr. Karadzic were moving at different speeds
12 was that, as you've just testified, was that he had a specific plan for
13 when different steps should be implemented; right?
14 A. I don't know what was in his head. We thought of what was our
15 own interest and what would be of benefit to us, and he probably thought
16 that he should have a say in everything and that he should say whatever
17 was supposed to be done. We were so interested in that because we were
18 so backward economically. And also, these relations between and amongst
19 us were not all that great. Well, you see --
20 Q. Sir --
21 A. -- our thinking went along different lines --
22 Q. I think you've gone somewhat beyond the question I asked you.
23 MR. TRALDI: Before I move on, I'd ask that this be given a D
24 number as well.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put first one question to the witness.
1 In your statement, paragraph 27, you talk about this
2 conversation, this intercept, and there you say:
3 "Dr. Karadzic popularised the power of Sarajevo, both in terms of
4 the party and the Sarajevo government in general."
5 Can you explain what you mean by that, that he "popularised the
6 power of Sarajevo"?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what does it mean? He said
8 one thing and did something else. What we considered to be our political
9 position, that we would have practical advantages from, he sidestepped
10 that and he kept saying that we were right and that there would be a
11 position when we could realise all our positions and we were impatient
12 and we simply did not take into account Radovan Karadzic. At least it
13 seemed to us that Radovan was doing what Alija was doing.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But again, what do you mean by the term
15 "popularised the power of Sarajevo"? What does that mean? Just explain,
16 please, the term you used in your statement.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I meant political
18 concentration and concentration of capital in Sarajevo, as was the case.
19 We created a region so that this capital, which enormously prevailed in
20 Sarajevo, turning Sarajevo into a major city, we were looking at lawful
21 ways of returning this to us because we were visibly poorer than
22 Sarajevo. That was a thorn in our side, and when we addressed Radovan on
23 that topic he evaded the issue and avoided us as far as the community of
24 municipalities of the Bosnian Krajina is concerned.
25 You see here how he is imposing this on Stevandic, that he is
1 right, and he wasn't right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Shall I take it that he was in favour of keeping
4 together Bosnia and Herzegovina with the capital of Sarajevo as the seat
5 of the government? Or what do you mean by that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, that's the way he
7 behaved, let me tell you. There was an attempt to unite the two
8 Krajinas, the one in Croatia and the one that we have here in Bosnia, and
9 that project of unification is something that he stopped.
10 So Radovan Karadzic all the time fought for an Avnoj
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the preservation of an Avnoj Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 And he kept insisting on that all the time, it prevailed all the time.
13 People from the Krajina, from the Serb Krajina, there was this
14 declaration that the Republic of Serb Krajina would be annexed to the
15 rest of Yugoslavia. So our objective was that that part of the Serb
16 people that was in Croatia and that had lived through terrible things and
17 a terrible crime was committed against them --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- during the Second World War, we
20 wanted to annex them to us, and --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You went far beyond my question. Thank you very
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me also see whether I now fully understand.
24 Do I understand that you intended to say that Dr. Karadzic
25 claimed that the power should be in Sarajevo, both party power and
1 government power, and not in the regions and that he imposed more or less
2 his will on the regions, at least he tried to do so? Is that how I have
3 to understand your testimony?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Obviously the headquarters of
5 the party was in Sarajevo. He never intended to move the party or any
6 organisation that had to do with the Serb people to Banja Luka. He was
7 firmly attached to Sarajevo and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I suggested. What I suggested as my
9 understanding of what your testimony now is, is that he claimed that the
10 power should be at the central level rather than in the region, both in
11 terms of --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there's any translation issue
16 there, but "popularised" seems not to be a word that expresses what we
17 now all understand to be the testimony of the witness.
18 Mr. Lukic -- but the witness has explained it now, but if there's
19 any translation issue, then it should be sorted out.
20 It's time for a break, Mr. Traldi. But you first, I take it,
21 wanted to have a decision on tendering this document.
22 Madam Registrar, it is ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 20559 receives Exhibit
24 Number D857, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D857 is admitted.
1 Mr. Kupresanin, we'll take a break and we'd like to see you back
2 in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, while we're waiting for the witness to
8 be escorted into the courtroom, perhaps you could already inform the
9 Registry which would be the next document you would like to have a look
11 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. 11778, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want it immediately on the screen or just --
13 MR. TRALDI: That's fine, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be on notice? Okay.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 MR. TRALDI: And -- I'll wait.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir, this is an interview with President Karadzic published in
20 Srpsko Oslobodjenje.
21 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 3 in the English, page 2
22 in the B/C/S, top of the first column.
23 Q. President Karadzic is being asked about the SDS's role in the
24 political struggle through the pre-war Parliament of the former
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in the middle of his answer, he says the
2 "It was a very successful period of political struggle and the
3 Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives" --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, if you keep your earphones on, if Mr. Mladic
6 wants to consult, he has to speak loudly. So would you please then come
7 closer to Mr. Mladic, take off your earphones, so that he can whisper
8 rather than speak aloud.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will. But by the time,
11 Your Honour, I take off my headphones ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think my guidance was clear.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Sir, directing your attention to a portion of
16 President Karadzic's answer here, he says:
17 "It was a very successful period of political struggle and the
18 Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives to the former Assembly
19 came through as the moral winners. We had a list of the actions and
20 steps to take, but we always waited for the Muslims to make a mistake,
21 and after they made one, we created a union of municipalities and the
22 Serbian autonomous areas next, followed by the regions and eventually our
23 Assembly and finally republic."
24 What Karadzic is saying here is, again, that the establishment of
25 autonomous regions was his policy; right?
1 A. I don't know whether that was his policy. He's talking about
2 good relations, co-operation, policy, successful policy. He had the law,
3 he had the state, he had the constitution, and what was offered to us on
4 the basis of the constitution is something that we tried to use, and
5 there's no special diplomacy, no special thing about any of this. I
6 don't know how come this text came about. No one prevented us from
7 having regions in Bosnia. Why --
8 Q. Sir --
9 A. -- blowing it out of proportion? Why making such an effort to
10 say --
11 Q. Again, I think you've gone well beyond the question I asked you.
12 MR. TRALDI: I'd simply tender this document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was your question actually answered?
15 MR. TRALDI: No, and -- so I'll repeat it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Traldi, what you are asking is the witness
17 to interpret the words. What apparently you intend to do is to put to
18 the witness that, contrary to what he said, Mr. Karadzic here apparently
19 is giving a different view on the matters and whether he has any comment
20 on that. That is apparently what you are seeking to do, and the question
21 may easily lead to the kind of answers which are not answers to your
22 question. I leave it to you whether you still want to pursue the matter
23 or whether you would just want the document to be tendered.
24 MR. TRALDI: I take the point, Mr. President, and I think the
25 most efficient way is simply to tender the document. I agree.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We -- Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 11778 receives Exhibit Number
3 P6999, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P6999 is admitted.
5 MR. TRALDI: Now I'm going to ask that 65 ter 05995 be brought to
6 the screen.
7 Q. While it comes up, you testified today that you agreed with
8 Mr. Lukic that the objective behind the establishment of regions and the
9 ZOBK specifically was to be the root of a strong Bosnia. In 1992 you
10 believed that the task of the ARK was to "destroy Alija's state";
12 A. When did I say that in 1992? I don't remember that. I don't
13 remember that I said that Alija's state should be destroyed and that the
14 region is a strong Bosnia.
15 I said that the region was the result of the constitutional law,
16 and I don't know when it was that I said that Bosnia should be destroyed.
17 Do help me, show me some documents, something. These are just
18 assumptions. I mean, I really don't know that I said that.
19 Q. Sir, this is a transcript of the 20th Session of the
20 Republika Srpska Assembly in Bijeljina in 1992.
21 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 70 in the English and 76 in the
23 Q. Here we see you speaking. At the beginning of your remarks, you
25 "Mr. President, Honourable Assemblymen.
1 "Last year we built up the region and made it strong with a clear
2 purpose and goal. The task of the region of Krajina was to destroy
3 Alija's state."
4 First, can I take it this refreshes your recollection as to
5 whether you said that?
6 A. Possibly. It's possible I said it. I don't know. When I say
7 "Alija's state," I don't know to what extent it was Alija's state. It
8 was mine as much as it was Alija's, except that Alija was president of
9 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As the second-ranking one, he got --
10 Q. Sir --
11 A. -- 800 something thousand votes at the presidential
12 election and --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were only asked if it refreshes your
14 recollection and it apparently does. You said possibly you said this.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, all right.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Sir, when you mention the region of Krajina that had this task,
19 you're obviously referring to the ARK, right, yes or no?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when you mention Alija's state, you are referring to an
22 independent and unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?
23 A. When I'm speaking about Alija's state, I'm talking about the
24 Islamic state, based on the Islamic Declaration that was created by
25 Alija Izetbegovic. When I speak about Alija's state, I'm referring to an
1 Islamic state and the Islamic Declaration.
2 Q. You say next:
3 "I think that other regions followed suit and we were successful
4 in that respect."
5 When you say "other regions," you're referring to the SAOs;
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Turning back to the bottom of page 68 in the English and page 75
9 in the B/C/S, we see a gentleman named Jovo Mijatovic is speaking. Four
10 lines into his remarks, he says something very similar:
11 "At a time when we had to destroy a unitary Bosnia, the SAO
12 regions and districts were politically and territorially the best
13 solution because with them we could round off our territories locally."
14 Mr. Mijatovic is expressing the view that the SAOs were part of
15 destroying the unitary BiH; right?
16 A. That's right.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this Assembly session be
18 marked for identification. I'll speak with Mr. Lukic about selections.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask one question.
20 Sir, is this position described by Mr. Mijatovic the same as the
21 position you described a little earlier when you talked of destroying
22 Alija's state?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I speak about Alija's
24 state, I'm speaking about a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, excuse me. Just a second. Is he
1 expressing the same sentiment as you or not? Just answer that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, possibly the same.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05995 receives P7000, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P7000 is marked for identification, and we are
7 waiting for a selection from the Prosecution.
8 I have one additional question. You said when you were talking
9 about Alija's state, you said it was the Islamic state based on the
10 Islamic Declaration. Now, were you destroying a concept or were you
11 destroying what you considered to have become reality at that moment?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reality, and we wanted to break up
13 that concept of an Islamic state.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But you considered it to have become a reality by
15 then. The speech was delivered in September 1992.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. I want to turn back now to 1991, and I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart
19 to play a video which has been assigned 65 ter 22372b. I can say ...
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Mr. President. I can say it's been
22 confirmed by CLSS and only has to be played once.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so therefore the interpretation can be on the
24 basis of the transcript. Please proceed.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I receive no translation at all. Is there any
2 sound? Is there any audio available to the interpreters?
3 [Video-clip played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
5 "Newscaster: Bosnia and Herzegovina, the so-called plebiscite of
6 the Serb people, has begun earlier today.
7 "Reporter Smiljko Sagolj: Despite decisions of both the
8 constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Presidency of this
9 republic proclaiming the plebiscite of the Serb people unconstitutional
10 and illegal, it is nevertheless taking place.
11 "It did not come unexpectedly because the SDS President,
12 Dr. Radovan Karadzic, was explicit.
13 "Radovan Karadzic: We no longer have any obligations towards the
14 BiH Constitution. We have obligations towards the Constitution of
15 Yugoslavia, which guarantees both our right to self-determination and the
16 right of the people to self-organise.
17 "Reporter: When asked if that wouldn't be an act of
18 unconstitutional destruction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Karadzic replied
19 without a trace of diplomacy, quite unusual for a politician:
20 "Radovan Karadzic: You cannot fuck up the entire Yugoslavia
21 expecting Bosnia to remain a virgin. No way!
22 "Reporter: Let us stress in conclusion that 3 million ballot
23 papers have gone out to polling stations, 2 million for the Serbs, the
24 rest for others. Voting is reportedly also taking place in Serbia, in
25 the US, and everywhere where Serbs live."
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. The plebiscite that you mention in your statement was also a step
3 towards destroying a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?
4 A. I don't think that it was a step to break up Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 It was the democratic will of the people to express their political views
6 by way of a referendum. Bosnia-Herzegovina had its referendum - I'm
7 referring to the BH Federation, Muslims and Croats - to the extent to
8 which they had this right, we had that right too. We were all
9 constituent peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this is a democratic right
10 enshrined in international law.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender the video.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22372b receives Exhibit Number P7001,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P7001 is admitted.
16 I see that the CD has been handed over to Madam Registrar.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02335.
19 This is the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly held in December
21 Q. And while it comes up, it was your position that the plebiscite
22 showed what territory belonged to the Serbs; right?
23 A. I did not have a position with regard to those territories, as
24 far as I believe -- I did not even know about some of the territories in
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina where the Serbian population resided.
1 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 26 in the English, 41 in the
3 Q. Now, you're speaking and you say:
4 "Gentlemen, I want to say that we have formed regions which do
5 not have final borders, i.e., just contours, and in order to achieve that
6 I absolutely agree that we should proceed with separating Serb
7 territories, i.e., Serb municipalities in places where that is possible,
8 specifically on the peripheral areas of our region.
9 "In Bosanska Krajina we have the following situation: We have
10 vast territories, specifically in Prijedor where over 70 per cent, even
11 up to 80 per cent, is Serb territory. The plebiscite has shown us
12 accurately which territory is ours, and in accordance with the plebiscite
13 we have to annex this territory."
14 It was, in fact, your position in 1991 that the plebiscite showed
15 what territory belonged to the Serbs; right?
16 A. Not only the Serbs, all the peoples had the right to join other
17 municipalities, or rather, villages had the right to join various
18 municipalities, municipalities could disappear. It was all the people's
19 democratic right --
20 Q. Sir --
21 A. -- they could use the plebiscite to decide who to live with, so
22 territories could be either joined together or separated.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're now giving a long answer explaining
24 your position; however, the same question was put to you before and then
25 you said: "I did not have a position with regard to those territories,
1 as far as I believe."
2 It is now put to you that you said that the plebiscite had
3 determined what was Serb territories, and nothing else was asked.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S only.
6 Q. You continue and say:
7 "I personally think that our living space and the territory in
8 which we live and work is endangered and we have to avert that danger.
9 Actually, we have to prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and
11 That was also your position as of December 1991; correct?
12 A. Not correct. I never said that. I don't know where this text
13 comes from in the first place.
14 Q. This is a transcript of the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska
15 Assembly, sir. I take it in the context of a political debate at that
16 Assembly, you would have been particularly careful to accurately set out
17 our position on what should be Serb territory; right?
18 A. I never said that people should be prevented from moving into any
19 area. It was everybody's democratic right and it is in compliance with
20 the Geneva Conventions on human rights, which says that everybody has the
21 right to free movement. How can you prevent people from doing that?
22 This has been taken out of some context. I don't know where this is
23 from. I don't think I ever, ever said that.
24 Q. You then say:
25 "In Cazinska Krajina there are between 250.000 and 300.000
1 Muslims in a very small space. We can simply shut them off in that ring
2 and it does not suit us at all for them to join us. It is even suitable
3 for us that they are a separate Krajina, the Cazinska Krajina, which will
4 absolutely depend on us in economic terms."
5 Do you recall saying that?
6 A. I remember that I tried to communicate with Fikret Abdic about
7 our integration, both physical and economic --
8 Q. Sir, sir, I asked you a very simple question. Do you recall
9 saying what the transcript of the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska
10 Assembly clearly reflects you saying?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask one brief question. You
13 earlier - at least that's how it appears on the transcript - refer to the
14 Geneva Conventions on human rights. Can you explain what exactly you
15 refer to?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are basic human rights: The
17 right to property, the right to free movement, the right to life, the
18 right to work. A series of rights that are guaranteed by the
19 international law and various conventions. And one of the rights which
20 is referred to in here is the right to free movement, and the question
21 about that right is whether it was threatened or not.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties in understanding that that
23 is to be found in the Geneva Conventions, but unless you want to further
24 explain to me, I leave it to that.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you say that municipalities
3 with a non-Serbian population could join the ARK. So I'd put to you that
4 what you told the Republika Srpska Assembly in December 1991, that it was
5 suitable for the Muslim area to be separate and absolutely dependent,
6 that that's the truth and that your position in your statement is not the
7 truth. Do you have any comment on that?
8 A. You're not right.
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this Assembly session be
10 marked for identification.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02335 receives number P7002,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P7002 is marked for identification.
15 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 02337. This will
16 be the 4th Session of the Assembly. And if we could have page 37 in the
17 English and 78 in the B/C/S, please.
18 Q. We see here President Karadzic is speaking. Turning to page 38
19 in the English and the B/C/S page 79 towards the bottom, we see him say:
20 "We have the right and the ability to prevent anybody on the
21 territories where we conducted our referendum to secede from Yugoslavia.
22 In all territories where Serbs took part in the referendum, regardless
23 whether they make 5 per cent or 55 per cent of the population, they are
24 the constituent element of that town or that republic. All territories
25 where we voted in our referendum to remain within Yugoslavia must stay
1 within Yugoslavia if we decide so."
2 He's saying essentially what you did, that the plebiscite defined
3 Serb territories; right?
4 A. The plebiscite defined the right to stay in Yugoslavia. We were
5 in Yugoslavia and we wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. That was that.
6 Q. And the territories where the outcome said that, you and
7 Mr. Karadzic were saying those had to be Serb territories; right?
8 A. Not necessarily. Muslim and Croatian territories could be
9 incorporated as well. It depended on who attended the plebiscite. If a
10 nation decided democratically to stay where they were, why prevent them
11 from doing that? We were in Yugoslavia. We wanted to stay in
12 Yugoslavia. We were in Bosnia, we wanted to stay in Bosnia, on a
13 condition that Bosnia stayed in Yugoslavia. That's what we told people.
14 That's how we organised the plebiscite. The constitution in Yugoslavia
15 and Bosnia and Herzegovina perfectly allowed us to do that.
16 Q. Now, at the same Assembly session, speakers, including
17 President Karadzic, made clear that if independence was declared, the
18 results would be disastrous, massive bloodshed, hundreds of thousands of
19 people dead; right?
20 A. I don't know where he said that, where he said that there would
21 be hundreds of thousands of people dead and there would be disastrous
22 consequences. On the 14th of October --
23 Q. Sir --
24 A. -- they proclaimed a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. I'm not asking about the 14th of October. I'm asking about this
1 Assembly session.
2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 40 in the English and the bottom
3 of page 83 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. And while it comes up, you attended this assembly session; right?
5 Sir, I'm not sure if you heard the question at the end. But can
6 you confirm you attended the 4th Session of the Assembly?
7 A. Could you please read again what you have just read about the
8 casualties and disastrous consequences? Can I hear that again?
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come to that in a minute. The first question
10 is now whether you attended that 4th Session.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember whether I attended
12 it or not.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. We'll get to that in a moment, sir. But, first, this is another
16 part of President Karadzic's remarks, and he says:
17 "As rational beings we know what civil war means. The experience
18 of Croatia tells us exactly what civil war has done to us. Apart from
19 causing the deaths of several hundred thousand people and complete
20 destruction of several hundred towns, a civil war in Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina would also result in massive and rapid population movements;
22 in other words, it would lead to population homogenisation."
23 So, first, he's clearly saying here that a civil war would result
24 in the deaths of several hundred thousand people, massive destruction,
25 massive population movement; right?
1 A. It is possible that he said that; however, I did not hear him say
3 Q. Can we go back now to page 28 in the English, page 57 in the
5 And here I can tell you the chairman is speaking. And, among
6 other things, we see that he calls for a vote on certain proposals.
7 First, a proposal to emphasise to the president of the United Nations,
8 the embassies in Belgrade, and the member states of the European
9 community that Serbs make up the majority of the population on
10 65 per cent of the territory of BiH which is unanimously approved. This
11 was the proportion of Bosnia's territory that the Bosnian Serbs claimed
12 as theirs; right?
13 A. Remind me, at what Assembly session was that? Where is this
14 document from? What is its origin?
15 Q. This is the transcript of the 4th Session --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't have to inquire into where the
17 document comes from. We leave that to the parties. If there's
18 anything -- if you have -- you were asked whether you have any
19 recollection. And if you're asking for the date, Mr. Traldi will tell
20 you. But where the document comes from is not something you have to
21 worry about. If there's any worries about that, the parties will raise
22 it, unless you have good reasons to claim that it's a forgery or anything
24 Please proceed.
25 And if there's anything to your knowledge in that respect, please
1 tell us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember this document.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. Okay. First, do you remember - setting the document aside - that
5 65 per cent of the territory of Bosnia was roughly what the Bosnian Serbs
6 claimed, yes or no?
7 A. Serbia had about 68 per cent of the territory. Now, whether they
8 had the right to claim that is a different question. They had 62,
9 actually, 62 per cent of the territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991
10 and 1992. It's official data.
11 Q. Now, below this --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the witness did not really answer your
14 The question was whether the Serbs claimed that territory, not
15 whether they had a right to claim that. As you said, you are uncertain
16 about that. Let's leave apart whether they had a right to do that. The
17 question was whether they claimed that territory. Did they or did they
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was their probably and
20 everything's clear.
21 JUDGE ORIE: By saying "it was their property," do you mean to
22 say that they claimed that their property was theirs?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was private property, and
24 private property is guaranteed. My land, my house, and I had a title of
25 deed before the war and thereafter. I had the right to that property.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But, Witness, this discussion is not about whether I
2 own a piece of land. I think this whole discussion is about who will
3 rule that region or that municipality, so you're now twisting to a
4 different subject. Because the claim is not a claim of property but the
5 claim is a claim of sovereignty or whatever, but rule over those areas.
6 And you are moving away from what clearly is the issue raised by
7 Mr. Traldi.
8 Did the Serbs claim 65 per cent of the territories?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they claimed
10 right, in what territory.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that, again, was not the question but let's
12 move on.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Below that, we see the decision to establish the Republic of
15 Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was unanimously adopted.
16 And then I think we'd turn to the next page in the B/C/S, or at
17 least scroll to the bottom. We see point 2: "Recognition of the
18 Republic of Serbian Krajina."
19 And you are called upon to read out that proposed decision. Now,
20 does that refresh your recollection as to whether you attended this
22 A. I never attended a session where the Republic of Serbian Krajina
23 would be proclaimed. Not that I don't remember. I was never there --
24 Q. Not proclaimed, recognised by the Serb Assembly in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's a decision you read out and turning to the --
1 or scrolling down the page, we can see --
2 A. No, no. I didn't do that. I didn't read out anything. I did
3 not attend that Assembly session. I'm sure that I would remember if I
4 had been. It was a historical moment for the Serbs in Croatia. I'm sure
5 I would remember that.
6 Q. Again, I think you might be misunderstanding my question. I'm
7 not asking about an assembly session where the Republic of Serbian
8 Krajina was declared; I'm asking about a session of the Bosnian Serb
9 Assembly held December 21st, 1991, at which that Assembly, after
10 declaring the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, then recognised
11 the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, if I may, this is --
14 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. Would you be careful. Do we have to
15 ask the witness to take his earphones --
16 MR. LUKIC: No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.
18 MR. LUKIC: The problem I see is we constantly have wrong B/C/S
19 page. So something's -- this is the third time we have wrong B/C/S page
20 in front of the witness; one of them is this one.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then get the right page before us.
22 Mr. Traldi, any suggestion as --
23 MR. TRALDI: It looks like at the bottom of this page we see the
24 decision to form the Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is
25 the one that immediately precedes the one he's called upon to read out.
1 So let's take the next page.
2 JUDGE ORIE: In B/C/S, you mean?
3 MR. TRALDI: In B/C/S, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think this is the right page.
5 Mr. Lukic, it seems that number 2 appears at two-thirds of the
6 page, and I see that Mr. Kupresanin is referred to there, first
7 apparently invited and then appears as a speaker.
8 Perhaps we could move to the next page then in English as well so
9 that we know what Mr. Kupresanin is recorded as having read out.
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: That is why I asked for the correct page. On the
13 page 67, line 20 and further, the question was about Serbian Krajina.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
15 MR. LUKIC: Was declared. That's completely different.
16 MR. TRALDI: No. At page 67, line 20 and further, I said the
17 question was not about Republic of Serbian Krajina being declared. The
18 question was about him attending a session where the Bosnian Serb
19 Assembly recognised it, and we can see him reading out that decision on
20 this page.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's first -- you are alerted, Mr. Traldi,
22 that Mr. Lukic is -- has some concerns about whether you accurately
23 reflect what is recorded here. I'll take it that you'll keep that in
25 Mr. Lukic, if there's any further problem --
1 MR. LUKIC: I think that I confirmed with my friend, my colleague
2 Stojanovic, but I think it was translated as meaning --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It could be that there is a translation
4 issue. If that's the case, of course Mr. Traldi will accept that, I take
6 MR. TRALDI: Of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's now move to where Mr. Kupresanin is recorded
8 as speaking.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. You say:
12 "Serbian ladies and gentlemen, dear guests, let me first of all
13 congratulate you on the establishment of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina and wish you a lot of success and a lot of happiness.
15 "It is my great honour to send this message" --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you're reading.
17 MR. TRALDI: I apologise.
18 Q. "... which I am going to read out in a moment on behalf of the
19 Serbian Assembly" --
20 MR. TRALDI: And we'll have to turn to the next page in the
22 Q. "... and the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to our Serbian
23 people in the former Croatian republic. It reads as follows:
24 "In accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Provisional
25 Statute of the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
1 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina at its Session
2 on 21 December 1991 has adopted a decision on the recognition of the
3 Republic of Serbian Krajina."
4 We see several lines below this that that was unanimously
6 So does this refresh your recollection as to whether you attended
7 this Assembly session?
8 A. I don't know whether I attended that session. I don't remember
9 that I ever read this out. I don't remember that session at all. I've
10 never seen or heard this before.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this session also be
12 marked for identification.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 02337 receives P7003, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
16 Mr. Traldi, it's not the usual time for a break, but I would
17 prefer to have a little bit earlier break. After the break, we would
18 then have another 45 minutes left.
19 Mr. Kupresanin, you may follow the usher. We would like to see
20 you back in 20 minutes.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at 1.30.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI: If we could for the sake of efficiency pull up
2 65 ter 20628.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 If we could have page 3 in the English, the bottom of page 3 in
7 the B/C/S.
8 Q. Sir, this is a transcript of an intercepted conversation between
9 you and President Karadzic on the 24th of February, 1992. You're
10 talking, as you say in your statement, about negotiations in Lisbon.
11 President Karadzic says:
12 "We achieved maximum success because we achieved that Bosnia
13 cannot be a single state anymore and that it will be composed of three
14 republics. In one paper they even called them states."
15 You ask him who would get the police, and he says:
16 "It would be our police."
17 You say:
18 "Our police on our territory."
19 He says:
20 "Our police on our territory. Our national guard on our
21 territory. Our national guard, and we're pushing further: Our army on
22 our territory ..."
23 Turning to page 6, both languages. You say:
24 "If we already have our territory and our police, then virtually
25 nobody can tell us where our borders are on that territory."
1 President Karadzic says:
2 "Nobody can apart from us."
3 You say:
4 "Apart from us, that's right."
5 He says:
6 "Nobody apart from us."
7 And you say:
8 "That means that practically it's a sovereign, independent
10 You and President Karadzic at this point were both seeking to
11 effectively create a Bosnian Serb state; right?
12 A. I know about the Lisbon Agreement. It doesn't put it that way,
13 and this conversation I really cannot remember.
14 Q. I'm not asking you how the Lisbon Agreement puts it, sir. I'm
15 putting to you as of the 24th of February, 1992, you and
16 President Karadzic were both seeking to create a Bosnian Serb state;
18 A. I cannot remember this, and I don't know that I talked to Radovan
19 in this way on this topic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, irrespective of this conversation,
21 which Mr. Traldi used as a kind of an introduction, at that point in time
22 were you seeking an independent Bosnian Serb state to be established?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, no.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, the next question would be whether
25 you have any comment on what is recorded here because it at least
1 suggests that you were speaking words to the contrary of the answer you
2 gave a second ago. Any comments?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No comment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me ask you another question. You just said:
6 "This conversation I really cannot remember."
7 Have you ever seen this transcript of the conversation of the
8 intercepted communication?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time I see
10 it, here.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In paragraph 20 -- just a moment. In
12 paragraph 29 of your statement, you refer to this document and you say:
13 "I have been shown this document," with this number, "a telephone
14 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that at all.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How is it possible that you talk about this
17 document in your statement of 20 March 2014, this year?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know of the
19 Lisbon Agreement and I know what it offered, and I know that it suited us
20 and that the Muslims were against it. The international community
21 verified that but Alija didn't want to sign it. That is what I know.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, in paragraph 28, you say:
23 "I have been shown document 65 ter 20604, a telephone
24 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me. The conversation shows that
25 Brdjanin and Vukic did not think about the parties' views and just
1 implemented their own ideas" -- sorry, I was at the wrong paragraph.
2 Earlier I said it:
3 "I have been shown document 65 ter 26208, a telephone
4 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me ..."
5 That was shown to you, according to your own statement, earlier
6 this year. Any comment about that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that that was
8 shown to me, that I had seen that. This is the first I hear about this.
9 I only know of the Lisbon Agreement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you attested to the truthfulness of your
11 statement. Your statement says: I have been shown document so and so.
12 Therefore, if it is true what you said that you don't remember that I --
13 or that you had not seen that ever before, I would have expected you in
14 court to tell us: Paragraph 29, I don't know whether that's true or not
15 because I have no recollection whatsoever, that this was shown to you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. I mean, I may
17 remember and I may not remember.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, but you should tell us. You attested
19 to the truthfulness of your statement, including paragraph 29.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't remember
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you're telling us in your statement that the
23 conversation concerns the Cutileiro Plan so apparently you have any
24 recollection about the conversation?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I ever
1 discussed the topic with Radovan. There were conversations between him
2 and me, but the Lisbon Agreement, I don't remember that we talked about
4 JUDGE ORIE: But then you should have told us instead of giving a
5 statement like we find it in paragraph 29. That's your evidence.
6 Apparently you remembered in March that your conversation was
7 about the Cutileiro Plan.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the Cutileiro Plan is,
9 but this conversation, no. Maybe I did talk about that subject, the
10 Cutileiro Plan; but that I talked about it this way, as presented here,
11 questions like this, I don't remember any of this.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware that you are undermining your
13 own testimony at this moment by saying: This is the statement, I
14 attested to it a couple of hours ago, and now you say: Well, of course I
15 don't know what this was all about, whether there was a telephone
17 Was it shown to you in March of this year?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when, when, when did I say a
19 couple of hours ago that I accepted that? When did I accept that a
20 couple of hours ago? When? When?
21 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether this statement you'd given is
22 truthful, and you said it was. Or have you not read the statement prior
23 to coming to this courtroom?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would rather be that I hadn't
25 remember -- that I hadn't read it. I mean, I don't remember this at all,
1 a talk -- a conversation between Radovan and me about the Cutileiro Plan,
2 I have no idea whatsoever.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But you are testifying about that conversation,
4 which you say was shown to you. So I take it that both the transcript of
5 that conversation was shown to you in March, that you recently reviewed
6 your own statement in which you say that it was shown to you and that
7 you're commenting on the conversation.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I would remember that,
9 wouldn't I? When did I see this document? I never saw this document.
10 Had I ever seen it, I would have remembered it. I would have remembered
11 the conversation after all. It was a conversation that was very
12 important for our people, but I don't remember this at all.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please be aware that by saying that it was
14 not shown to you that you are accusing more or less the Defence -- yes, I
15 do understand that in May of this year that you met with Mr. Lukic and
16 that you reviewed your statement with him in May of this year. It was in
17 The Hague.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In May this year in The Hague?
19 What do you mean in May this year in The Hague? Well, this is the first
20 time that I'm in The Hague since last year, August -- November. I was
21 not in The Hague in May.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We received a --
23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: A proofing note.
25 MR. LUKIC: It says date 8th of December, only down there it was
1 left 6, 7th, and 8th May. It should be December. Now I noticed this
2 mistake as well. But date is 8th of December when I sent this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's just -- yes, it's causing quite a
4 bit of confusion.
5 But you are reported as having reviewed your statement over the
6 last week, the 6th, the 7th, and the 8th of December, to have gone
7 through your statement, and you're telling us that the document to
8 which --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's possible that -- it's
10 possible that I went through all of those statements without noticing
11 this and I signed it nevertheless. It's possible. I'm not saying it's
12 not possible. I'd like to be able to remember, but I just don't
13 remember. This is an interesting conversation, very interesting.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not seeking your comment on whether the
15 intercept is interesting or not. We'll -- we've heard your answers to my
17 Mr. Traldi.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask one question.
19 Do you have any reason why, when you were asked whether this
20 statement is truthful, you didn't say: No, I can't confirm this because
21 I didn't read everything in it? Why did you say on the contrary, that
22 you confirm it, it's truthful?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember that. I cannot
24 say something is truthful if I just don't remember it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You did this morning, Mr. Kupresanin. Let's leave
1 it to that for the time being.
2 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31773, paragraph 31.
4 Q. And, sir, as it comes up, this will be your signed statement in
5 the Karadzic case, given to the Karadzic Defence. I imagine you recall
6 that you also, during your testimony in the Karadzic case, attested that
7 your Karadzic Defence statement was truthful and accurate. Do you recall
8 attesting to that?
9 A. Yes, I said that it was truthful and accurate, the statement that
10 I gave in relation to the Defence of Radovan Karadzic, it's true. And
11 everything that I have provided is the truth.
12 Q. Now, in paragraph 31 of that statement which we have in the
13 English and we're still pulling up the B/C/S -- and, I apologise, I
14 didn't have the B/C/S page number at my finger-tips. And I thank the
15 Court Officer.
16 We see here the same language that you'd been shown an
17 intercepted -- or a telephone conversation between Dr. Karadzic and
18 yourself about the Cutileiro Plan. Now, today you said you couldn't
19 remember if you'd ever talked to Dr. Karadzic about the Cutileiro Plan.
20 You've sworn to two Trial Chambers at this Tribunal in the last 13 months
21 and in two signed statements in the same period of time that not only had
22 you spoken to Dr. Karadzic about the Cutileiro Plan but that you'd
23 recently reviewed the conversation in which you did so; right?
24 A. I repeat, I don't remember. You're trying to convince me that I
25 should remember, but I don't need to remember. I stand by what I signed
1 on behalf of Radovan Karadzic. I don't know if this was shown to me in
2 the Karadzic case. Since this is an interesting conversation, I remember
3 it, I will remember it now. I can remember, I cannot remember. Why
4 shouldn't I remember? Why is this a problem?
5 Q. That's an interesting set of questions, sir. Do you remember it
6 now or not?
7 A. I don't. I'm surprised that I signed it in the Karadzic case. I
8 don't remember it. I'm sure I would remember this. I know all the parts
9 of Radovan's defence. It was a long time ago. I remember that, but I
10 don't remember this document. The Lisbon Agreement was in favour of the
11 Serbs. Why would I be against that agreement?
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there.
13 Let's move on, Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, normally, as it's an associated
15 exhibit, I would suggest it get a D number. Under the current
16 circumstances, I'm not sure it satisfies the test as an associated
17 exhibit. I would nonetheless tender it. I'm in the Chamber's hands how
18 to address it.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a P number for
21 this document.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20628 receives Exhibit Number P7004,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P7004 is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. TRALDI: And could the Prosecution now have 65 ter 02345.
1 This will be a transcript of the 8th Session of the Republika Srpska
2 Assembly on the 25th of February, 1992, the next day.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, I have on my note here 65 ter 31773.
4 Are you doing anything about it?
5 MR. TRALDI: No. I would -- I will seek to agree with Mr. Lukic
6 that it's the same paragraph that appears in the statement, but I will
7 attempt to do that rather than tendering any portion of it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course it is a matter which draws more and
9 more the attention of the Chamber that, from what was just read a second
10 ago, that it's again literally the same language. We have seen this
11 before, and I think it's good that the Defence is aware that the
12 Chamber -- that it's not unnoticed. That statements taken in the
13 Karadzic case often sometimes with small corrections are literally the
14 same as the ones presented in the Mladic case.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 60 in the English and 75 in the
18 Q. As it comes up, do you recall attending the 8th Session of the
19 Assembly of the Bosnian Serb People on the 25th of February.
20 A. Do I remember? It is possible that I was. It would be logical
21 that I was, but I can't remember this particular session. How shall I
22 remember? There were so many of them.
23 Q. Well, do you recall saying to the Assembly, as you say on this
25 "Therefore, I am against any kind of joint institution with the
1 Muslims and Croats of BH. I personally consider them to be our natural
2 enemies. You already know what natural enemies are and that we can never
3 again live together. We can never again do anything together."
4 Do you recall saying that to the Bosnian Serb Assembly?
5 A. I don't remember. I would remember this. These words carry
6 certain weight.
7 As for natural enemies, we all know what natural enemies are.
8 For example, a dog and a cat are natural enemies, and they deal with each
9 other on the basis of instinct. And, as for human beings, we have common
10 sense, we have reason, that's how we function. Natural enemies are dogs
11 and cats. I don't remember that I ever said this.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd seek to mark for identification
13 this session as well.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 02345 receives Exhibit P7005, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is marked for identification and a further
17 selection will be given notice of by the Prosecution.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Now, it was around this time, sir, in fact, it was in this same
20 Assembly session that you called on President Karadzic to come out to the
21 ARK Assembly and stop the ARK independence movement; right?
22 A. I did invite Radovan Karadzic to the ARK Assembly but not at that
23 Assembly session that you are talking about. I know that I phoned him to
24 invite him because of the situation that prevailed at the time.
25 Q. I'm not --
1 A. -- I mean in the ARK.
2 Q. Sir --
3 A. I wanted him to assist me, to help me --
4 Q. First, you needed him to help you because of his power and
5 influence; right?
6 A. Because his intention was for that to happen, and that was not my
7 intention. They didn't intend for that to happen, for a state to be
8 created in the ARK, and some of our opponents in the same political party
9 and in some other political parties wanted to have a state of Krajina
10 created in the territory of Krajina. And since I know that
11 Radovan Karadzic --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm stopping you again. Why not answer the
13 question? Was it because of the power and the influence that you asked
14 for his help, of course having --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: A simple answer to a relatively simple question.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Could we have 64 in the English and 82 in the B/C/S.
21 Q. And here we see you speaking again at this session. Turning to
22 page 65 in the English, you say:
23 "I think a Krajina state -- sorry, I said that a Krajina state is
24 not a realistic idea. It is fiction. To establish it would be a crime
25 against and the destruction of the Serbian people."
1 And then you explain that you can't bear the entire burden of the
2 ARK Assembly on your own shoulders.
3 And at the bottom of the page in the English, turning to the top
4 of page 83 in the B/C/S, you say:
5 "I therefore urge that the president of the party and the
6 president of the Assembly come to Banja Luka to the Assembly and I am
7 sure that nothing bad will happen."
8 So you did, aside from your phone conversation, call on
9 President Karadzic to come to Banja Luka to the ARK Assembly at this
10 Assembly session; right?
11 A. It is true that I invited him to that session. I know that I
12 spoke to him on the phone. I don't know whether I did it verbally, but
13 it doesn't really matter. The most important thing was that he had been
14 invited and that he had arrived and that, as a result of that, what
15 happened, happened. The outcome of that Assembly session was
16 unexpected --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, the most important thing is that you
18 tell us the truth. I read to you one of your previous answers:
19 "I did invite Radovan Karadzic to the ARK Assembly but not at
20 that Assembly session that you are talking about."
21 You are recorded to have invited him at that Assembly session,
22 and you admitted that you may have done so. Therefore, the answer that
23 you did not do that at that Assembly session is just not the truth. You
24 may have forgotten about it, then you could have told us; but a --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have forgotten. I don't
1 remember that. I remember the telephone conversation, though --
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I then remind you that the proper answer would
3 have been: I remember that I invited him by telephone; however, I do not
4 remember whether I also invited him at the session, instead of saying: I
5 did not do it at the session.
6 You should be more accurate and more precise with your answer.
7 Witness -- witness --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said that a little while
10 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier said something different, and I'm not
11 used to be interrupted by a witness.
12 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. You say after that in this transcript:
15 "I know that Karadzic as the president of the SDS is truly the
16 leading figure among the Serbian people and five of his sentences are
17 enough to change the entire course of the session, but I am now powerless
18 with those people."
19 What you're saying is that Karadzic, because of his power, could
20 prevent the ARK from seceding from the RS, but you yourself could not;
22 A. Not from Republika Srpska, but from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Not from
23 Republika Srpska, no. They wanted the ARK to stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
24 that's why I invited Radovan.
25 Again, we meet the same stumbling block, make a distinction
1 between the regional Krajina and the Krajina within Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 I invited Radovan to come and to prevent the creation of the state of
3 Krajina within Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 We are all again speaking at cross-purposes. That's that. What
5 region of Krajina? People wanted a state of Krajina within
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They wanted a state within a state.
7 Q. Now, President Karadzic did come to the next session of the ARK
8 Assembly after this; right?
9 A. He did.
10 MR. TRALDI: And could we have 65 ter 06884.
11 Q. This is an extract from the minutes of the 14th Session of the
12 ARK Assembly on the 29th of February, 1992.
13 Now, in the days between the 25th and the 29th of February, the
14 constitution had been promulgated; right?
15 A. What constitution? Whose constitution? Please, whose
16 constitution? The constitution of Republika Srpska, very well.
17 Q. Now, turning to page 2 in the English --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, your question was about the
19 constitution. The witness asked: What constitution --
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Sir --
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I think assuming that you intended to refer to
23 the constitution of the Republika Srpska or the Serbian Republic of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that he answered that question. Was that what
25 you referred to?
1 MR. TRALDI: It was.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. Turning to page 2 in the English, which we now have, towards the
5 bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S. We see Radovan Karadzic presented the
6 current political and security situation at the Assembly. We see he
7 gives an explanation and he says, among other things:
8 "If BH changes its status in Yugoslavia, we will change our
9 status too. If BH leaves Yugoslavia, we will leave it too, but not as
10 part of their BH but as our BH, a Serbian one ..."
11 And below that, we see that his report on the political and
12 security situation was accepted in full by the ARK Assembly. And below
13 point 2, turning to the next page in the B/C/S --
14 MR. LUKIC: What you quoted previously was also on page 2 in
16 MR. TRALDI: I apologise. And I thank Mr. Lukic.
17 Q. In the second paragraph below point 2 that we see here, we see
18 that he stresses that:
19 " ... it would be a crime against the Krajina if it were
20 declared a Republic."
21 That he refers to those as "childish ideas," and then we see
23 MR. TRALDI: We can turn to page 3 in the English.
24 Q. After a debate, the deputies in the Assembly of the ARK accepted
25 the Constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People of BH in full.
1 The status of the Autonomous Region of Krajina would be incorporated into
2 the Constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People of BH and strict
3 control of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina would be
4 established. 148 deputies voted for these conclusions - that's at the
5 bottom of the page in the B/C/S - and none voted against.
6 So President Karadzic accepted your invitation. When he came to
7 the ARK, the ARK Assembly unanimously adopted his position and remained
8 part of the Serbian Republic of BH; right?
9 A. I don't know that a state or a republican law was ever adopted at
10 an Assembly session. I don't know that that was foreseen by the
11 constitution. Why would the constitution of Republika Srpska be
12 discussed at the Parliament of the autonomous region if we have the
13 Parliament of Republika Srpska? Only the Assembly of Republika Srpska
14 could adopt such constitution. Everything else is absurd. I'm sure that
15 Radovan did participate in the debate, but not regarding the topic of the
16 state constitution.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your position that this is not an accurate
18 reflection of what happened at that session?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The constitution was not discussed
20 at that session. I know that. We discussed issues and I know what those
21 were. None of them was the constitution. The most important issue was
22 to prevent the setting up of the state of Krajina of north-Western
24 JUDGE ORIE: My question was a different one. Does this not
25 reflect the discussion at they took place at the Assembly?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that this record is
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any fact to your knowledge which would support that
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I remember, and I have just
6 shared with you, I don't see a stamp, I don't see my signature, nothing.
7 I would not be in a position to sign a document adopting the republican
8 constitution. It would have been pointless to discuss that at the
9 regional Assembly. The only place, the only proper place where to
10 discuss that and to adopt that would be the republican Assembly or
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's logic. I'm asking about facts. Anything
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the next page in B/C/S.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, in the interests of time, I see it's almost 2.15, I'm not
18 going to pull up the examples but I'm going to put to you that this is a
19 document that you've also said in two signed statements that you've
20 attested to in the last 13 months that you've been shown this document
21 and that you've made comments on, and on neither of those occasions have
22 you said in your statements which were -- which you attested were
23 truthful, on neither of those occasions have you said: These minutes are
24 not an accurate reflection of what happened at that Assembly.
25 So I'd put to you that what you're saying now is, in fact, not
1 the truth. Do you have any comment on that?
2 A. I can see my name here but there is no signature, there is no
3 stamp. How come that I did not sign this document? Anybody could have
4 been drafted it. Anybody could have submitted it to the Tribunal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, this document was shown to you by
6 the Mladic Defence, by the Karadzic Defence. You were asked to comment
7 on it. You did. You didn't say: It's not what it claims to be. You
8 just gave other comments.
9 You have not told us that this does not reflect what was
10 discussed during that meeting. Why didn't you do that? Why is it that
11 now in court suddenly not in the Karadzic case but in this case you
12 suddenly say: Well, whatever comment I gave, it's not accurately
13 reflecting what had happened and therefore I refrain from commenting on
14 it because it's not a truthful document. Why didn't you say that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever documents I signed and
16 stamped, I recognise as documents. This, in my view, is not a document.
17 This was just filed with us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Why didn't you then say that when interviewed by the
19 Defence teams of Mr. Karadzic and of Mr. Mladic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no stamp. How can I
21 proffer any comments? I suppose that at that time I failed to not see
22 the stamp.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it to that. It is -- the last part of the
24 answer is of some relevance to the question put to the witness.
25 Mr. Traldi, it's time for -- to adjourn.
1 MR. TRALDI: Before we do and so I don't forget, I'd just tender
2 the document as in a previous similar instance I'd suggest a P number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 And, Madam Registrar, a P number to be assigned to this document
5 would be ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: P7006, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P7006 is admitted into evidence -- is marked for
8 identification. I stand corrected.
9 Then we'll --
10 MR. TRALDI: It's a very brief document which I'd ask to have
11 admitted so if in case the Chamber is asking for follow-up from me, I
12 would just inquire as to the reason for marking it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree it's a three-page document only so,
14 therefore, a further selection would not make that much sense. I stand
15 corrected again.
16 P7006 is now finally admitted into evidence.
17 Mr. Kupresanin, we'll adjourn for the day. We'll continue
18 tomorrow morning at 9.30 -- no, no, we'll continue on Monday, 9.30 in the
19 morning, in this same courtroom, I. I would like to instruct you that
20 you should not speak with anyone about your testimony or to communicate
21 in any other way with whomever it may be about your testimony, whether
22 that is testimony given today or whether that is testimony still to be
23 given on Monday.
24 If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I heard the word "svedok," which means
4 that Mr. Mladic was talking about a witness or this witness or whatever.
5 He should not speak aloud, make that clear to him, because it will have
6 similar consequences as before when he continues to do so.
7 We'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume Monday, the 15th of
8 December, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of
11 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.