141211IT

Page 29656

1 WITNESS: VOJO KUPRESANIN

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kupresanin.

4 Mr. Kupresanin, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll

5 find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kupresanin.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. We should pause between question and answer. That way it will be

12 possible for the interpreters to interpret what we're saying.

13 Have you provided a statement first to the members of the team of

14 Mr. Karadzic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you also talk to the representatives of General Mladic's

17 Defence on the basis of that statement primarily?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you could identify who was exactly

20 talking to the Defence, because I assume that it was Mr. Kupresanin but

21 it has not been confirmed yet. Please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] I omit certain things in the course of such

24 activity. Could you please slowly state your name and surname.

25 A. I am Vojo Kupresanin. I live in Banja Luka.

Page 29657

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D1621 on our screens, please.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, when we talked, did we notice

4 that there are any dates that are wrong?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. First let us take a look at paragraph 1 of this statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

8 MR. TRALDI: I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, Your Honours, but I

9 think we've called up the original version of the statement rather than

10 the updated, redacted version that the Defence provided this week.

11 MR. LUKIC: My learned friend is right. It should be 1D1621A.

12 And, at the first place, I was warned this morning there is some

13 difference between B/C/S and English translation in paragraph 1 regarding

14 one date so we will clarify that first with the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

17 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Kupresanin, your party, the party that

18 you founded, when did it join the SDS? The 12th of July of which year?

19 A. The party that I was the president of, that is to say the

20 Homeland Front, came into being on the 4th of March, 1990, and on the

21 12th of July that same year, it became part of the Serb Democratic Party.

22 That's when the Serb Democratic Party was constituted in Sarajevo.

23 MR. LUKIC: So the B/C/S version is correct, and it should be

24 corrected in English version that it's 1990 instead of 1992.

25 Now can we have paragraph 5 on the next page in both versions.

Page 29658

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: To which paragraph does the correction refer,

2 Mr. Lukic?

3 MR. LUKIC: The previous one or the next one?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The previous one.

5 MR. LUKIC: Paragraph 1, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. LUKIC: In this paragraph, while reading the statement of

8 Mr. Kupresanin, we found out that in paragraph 5, "page" in this -- from

9 this document was wrongly recorded, and it's not page 52 to 53 but

10 page 57. So the correct number of the exhibit but wrong page number.

11 Paragraph 11, please. Next page. This paragraph that we

12 redacted.

13 In paragraph 12, the wrong number of the document was recorded by

14 the Defence members, and instead of -- I'm sorry. Paragraph 21, not 12.

15 In paragraph 21, exhibit number was wrongly recorded, and instead of

16 1D02026, it should read 1D03314.

17 Paragraph 47, in B/C/S second-last page, again the wrong page

18 number was recorded. It was recorded page 35 and should read page 5.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Lots of technical matters, Mr. Kupresanin, but

20 you do remember that we corrected some numbers, don't you?

21 A. I do.

22 MR. LUKIC: Can we have page 1 now of the statement on our

23 screens, please.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, on this page do you recognise

25 the signature?

Page 29659

1 A. On the left-hand side of the screen, I see a signature and I

2 recognise it, but on the right-hand side I do not see a signature. So I

3 do recognise this signature.

4 Q. Whose signature is it?

5 A. Mine.

6 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the last page in the same document,

7 please.

8 Q. On this page, do you see two signatures, one after the text of

9 this part of the statement and the other one further down?

10 A. Yes, both of these signatures are my own.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kupresanin, what is recorded in this statement,

12 is it correct -- actually what you said to us, was it correctly recorded

13 in this statement? Throughout this statement. I'm referring to the

14 entire statement and the facts recorded in this statement.

15 A. Yes, correct, correct.

16 Q. The facts recorded in this statement, are they truthful to the

17 best of your knowledge and recollection?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: At this moment we would tender the statement,

20 Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,

22 the number would be ...

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 1D01621A receives exhibit

24 number D852, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D852 is admitted.

Page 29660

1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, with your leave, I would read statement

2 summary of this witness and then I will have several questions in regard

3 of a few documents --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. LUKIC: -- tendered originally as associated exhibits.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have one little question. Mr. Lukic, at the end

7 it says that the 16-page document is the end in the English, and whereas

8 the document only contains 15 pages. In the original so 15 --

9 MR. LUKIC: In English -- in English it is 16 pages and in B/C/S

10 it is 15 pages.

11 JUDGE ORIE: In e-court, I have 15 pages at this moment.

12 MR. LUKIC: Oh --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps after the -- I don't know what happened, but

14 I'm on page 15 out of 15 in e-court, unless the wrong --

15 MR. LUKIC: Then it's --

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- version is there, but --

17 MR. LUKIC: Probably I had the wrong version.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: So it should be corrected.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed -- yes, it's not a major thing, but

21 accuracy is always appreciated. Please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Vojo Kupresanin became engaged in political work on the eve of

24 the first multi-party elections. On March the 4th, 1990, he formed the

25 Yugoslav Democratic Party, the Homeland Front, and on the 12th of July,

Page 29661

1 1990, his party became part of the SDS. After this, he was a deputy in

2 the chamber of citizens in B&H Parliament and a member of the SDS

3 Main Board.

4 In the first half of 1992, Mr. Kupresanin was elected president

5 of the Assembly of the community of municipalities of Bosanska Krajina

6 and in the second half of the same year, president of the Assembly of the

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, ARK. After the war, he reactivated the

8 work of the Homeland Front, and on June the 1st, 2013, he retired.

9 This Union of Municipalities of Bosanska Krajina with acronym

10 ZOBK was established primarily for economic reasons and included 17

11 municipalities. After World War II, Banja Luka was economically the

12 second most powerful town after Sarajevo and the region had several

13 hundred million dollars of commercial surplus, but all this money went to

14 the central bank of Sarajevo.

15 The ZOBK Assembly adopted its own statute and there were members

16 of the different parties and everybody worked for the same idea, keeping

17 for the people of Krajina the natural resources of the area. The basic

18 goal was being able to follow events in the sphere of the economy,

19 politics, and culture.

20 On June 28th, 1991, the ZOBK Assembly adopted a declaration for

21 the unification of the two Krajinas: RSK and Bosnian Krajina. The ZOBK

22 Assembly had Muslims and Croats who were delegated by municipalities in

23 which they were deputies for the SDA and HDZ until such a time that they

24 stopped coming to the sessions at the instruction of the SDA and HDZ

25 central offices from Sarajevo.

Page 29662

1 Vojislav Kupresanin, in his capacity of president of the ZOBK

2 Assembly, expressed his wish for the ZOBK to be joined by various Muslim

3 and Croat municipalities because ZOBK goal was not to create a Serbian

4 community.

5 Mr. Kupresanin personally contacted Mr. Fikret Abdic, the

6 director of Agrokomerc and a prominent Muslim leader of European

7 orientation because he wanted this food -- his food company to be

8 supplied with the raw material from the area. Unfortunately, Mr. Abdic

9 never replied to these calls.

10 In September 1991, the statute of the ARK was adopted. In this

11 statute, all nationalities were recognised as equal and municipalities

12 with a majority of non-Serbian people were enabled to join the ARK. In

13 order to protect the Serbian people in Slavonia, in Croatia, who were

14 exposed to the most heinous crimes, the Serbs in Krajina turned to the

15 JNA for protection. After JNA General Uzelac refused to intervene to

16 defend the Serbs, the ARK decided to declare a mobilisation.

17 Later on, ARK Crisis Staff was established, even though the

18 Republika Srpska government ordered the formation of the Crisis Staff per

19 municipalities not per regions. The reason for the formation of the ARK

20 Crisis Staff was the tense and alarming situation in B&H. Dr. Karadzic

21 charged Mr. Kupresanin with the responsibility of influencing the

22 leadership in Prijedor to close down investigation centres.

23 Mr. Kupresanin asked those authorities to shut down and to improve the

24 prisoners' living conditions until its disbandment. After that,

25 Mr. Kupresanin toured to Manjaca prisoner of war camp in order to check

Page 29663

1 living conditions there.

2 Furthermore, Mr. Kupresanin negotiated an end to the fighting in

3 Kotor Varos, in agreement with the commander of the VRS operational group

4 and with the chief of the security service centre in Banja Luka.

5 And that was the end of the statement summary of Mr. Kupresanin.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions,

7 please proceed.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 First of all, I would kindly ask to have 1D2036 on our screens,

10 please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Lukic, could you assist us, that takes us

12 to what paragraph of the statement, if any?

13 I found it already; it's paragraph 5.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Kupresanin, what we have before us is a transcript of an

16 audio recording. You saw this during the proofing. We cannot see what

17 it is on the basis of these first two pages, so could we please have the

18 third page in both versions.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, we need line 6 onwards and

20 in English line 8 onwards.

21 Q. Do you know who Mr. Sveto Kovacevic is?

22 A. Yes, I know. I think he was president of the municipality or

23 president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Celinac at

24 the time.

25 Q. Mr. Sveto Kovacevic here addresses the deputies, and he says:

Page 29664

1 "I have the honour of opening the constitutional session of the

2 community of Bosanska Krajina municipalities."

3 Did you participate in this session? Can you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It is stated in line 15 in B/C/S and line 18 of the English

6 version that Mr. Sveto Kovacevic informed everybody that the

7 representatives of the HDZ, the SDA, and the SDS were all present at this

8 session as delegates. Do you remember whether there were representatives

9 of Muslims and Croats at that session?

10 A. After my election, I addressed them, I greeted them, and I

11 congratulated them on the fact that the community of Bosanska Krajina

12 municipalities had been established.

13 Q. And now on the same page from line 26 onward, and in English it

14 is in line 31 and line 32, it says that one of the tasks of the session

15 is to elect the president of the municipality.

16 Was the president of the community of Bosanska Krajina

17 municipalities elected?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was elected?

20 A. I was elected.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to page 4 in both

22 versions, please --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- before we continue, neither in the statement nor

Page 29665

1 on page 3 where you took us nor anywhere else I find a time-frame when

2 was this meeting held.

3 Could we -- could the witness tell us when and what date this

4 meeting was held.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 24th of April, 1991.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] On this page, we see that Dr. Dusko Jaksic

9 addressed the gathering. He was introduced as the director of the

10 economic institute. Did you know Mr. Jaksic?

11 A. Yes, he was the president of that institute as a matter of fact.

12 Q. In lines 22 through 26 in B/C/S and in English from line 30

13 onwards, and that bit spills over to the following page, Mr. Jaksic says

14 here that he doesn't belong to any of the ruling parties.

15 What was Mr. Jaksic's role? Why was he there? Why was he

16 brought to that meeting?

17 A. He was perceived as the biggest expert in economy. He had a

18 Ph.D. in economics, he was a scientist. His presentation was not only

19 his presentation, it reflected the way a number of experts were thinking

20 and that's what he presented at that Assembly meeting.

21 Q. His speech was rather long.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 11 in B/C/S and 12

23 in English. We're interested in line 29 in English and line 26 in B/C/S.

24 Q. It is recorded here that the first speaker, Mr. Jaksic, said

25 Banja Luka must not replace Sarajevo.

Page 29666

1 Further on, he continues in line 31 in B/C/S and on page 13 of

2 the English, starting with line 12 onwards, starting with the very end of

3 line 12, we read:

4 "I'd like to see Krajina as a good region and that it becomes the

5 route of a good and stable Bosnia and Herzegovina," obviously in

6 Yugoslavia.

7 Do you agree that that was the objective behind the establishment

8 of that region?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Throughout the entire transcript, there is a lot to be shown; for

11 example, page 15 in B/C/S that I would like to show first and the same

12 bit can be found on page 16 in English. We're interested in line 15 in

13 B/C/S and line 31 in English. It says here:

14 "So it is obvious that there is a strong economic reason for us a

15 regionalise, to link-up, to join certain functions, to unite at the

16 region level" --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, from both my colleagues, I received a

18 short question: What's the relevance of this? And it won't be the first

19 one --

20 MR. LUKIC: We want to show what was the purpose actually of

21 establishment -- establishment of this region, but --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The region or the economic co-operation?

23 MR. LUKIC: Region.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The region?

25 MR. LUKIC: The region.

Page 29667

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there may have been economic reasons.

2 Is that contested by the Prosecution, that economic reasons may

3 have played a role, perhaps not the exclusive role, but -- and that in

4 1991, various parties were willing to co-operate?

5 MR. TRALDI: We don't dispute that at the outset economic motives

6 were one component of the decision to establish such regions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And that is reflected in this meeting, that

8 component, at least from what we've seen until now?

9 MR. TRALDI: I agree what people are saying is reflected on the

10 transcript, yes --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

12 MR. TRALDI: -- and that they're describing what we've just --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: I will then shortly finish with this document.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. LUKIC: If we can only have page 20 in B/C/S and page 22 in

17 English version. [Interpretation] Line 7 in B/C/S and line 4 in English,

18 please.

19 Q. The speaker is recorded as saying:

20 "If we don't care who lives in these areas, if we disregard who's

21 Serb, who's Croat, who's Muslim, we'll hopefully still remain living

22 together. But it's important that wherever anybody lives, be it a Serb,

23 a Croat, a Muslim, that this person lives well, that's our main goal."

24 Do you remember that that was precisely the intention? Was there

25 a hidden agenda? What was the intention behind the establishment of the

Page 29668

1 region?

2 A. You lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the state which was

3 called Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It had its laws, it had its

4 constitution. We observed that constitution and, according to Article 4

5 of that constitution, we were allowed to make associations for economic

6 reasons, and I mean several municipalities could unite in order to

7 control taxes, health care, the education system, and other things like

8 that. The main reason and the main idea was to improve the economic

9 situation and to improve the life of the people who lived there. We

10 wanted to spend fewer hours in Sarajevo and more time in the region where

11 the resources were and where the income was generated. That was that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you started your answer by saying: "You

13 lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

14 Who is "you" in this context?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant I lived --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when I said "you," I meant all

18 of us, we.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. We would tender this document into

22 evidence, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of the document?

24 Mr. Traldi.

25 MR. LUKIC: Maybe we can sit afterwards, Mr. Traldi and me, and

Page 29669

1 try to cut down this -- whatever is not necessary.

2 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to do that, Your Honours.

3 MR. LUKIC: SO just then to MFI the document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It will be MFI'd.

5 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

6 THE REGISTRAR: 1D2036 receives MFI number D853, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D853 is marked for identification.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: In relation with paragraph 14 of the statement of

10 Mr. Kupresanin, the Prosecution asked me to lead the evidence on the

11 document marked as 21323. So I would like to have this document on our

12 screens, please; 65 ter 21323.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You were seeking the underlying document to be shown

14 rather than the statement, paragraph 14.

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, underlying the document. Again --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have 65 ter 21323 on our screens.

17 And then for English, the English version, please.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, this is an intercepted

21 conversation.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're interested in page 3.

23 Q. This conversation took place between Radovan Karadzic and

24 probably Nenad Stevandic on the 31st of August, 1991. I would like to

25 look at page 3 in B/C/S and 4 in English. There is a reference to the

Page 29670

1 Krajina referendum prior to that.

2 First of all, let me ask you, did Mr. Karadzic oppose the

3 unification of the two Krajinas, the one in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

4 the one in Croatia?

5 A. The idea for the Krajinas to be united in Croatia and Bosnia was

6 the desire of the Serbs on the both banks of the Una River for a long

7 time. Radovan Karadzic was against that and he fought for

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole. He disputed the idea of a referendum that

9 would pose that question.

10 Q. On this page in B/C/S, line 8, and in English, line 7, it is

11 recorded that Radovan Karadzic said:

12 "What we want is to keep Bosnia peaceful and out of it -- we have

13 reasons for staying out of it."

14 And now on the following page in English, which is page 5,

15 Mr. Karadzic's inter -- collocutor on line 8, which is line 30 in B/C/S

16 on the same page, he says:

17 "... if Alija announces a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we

18 would react and announce our own referendum in Krajina."

19 Mr. Karadzic is recorded as saying:

20 "There is no need," and then he swears. And then he says, "God

21 damn, they never listen."

22 And then that same person says:

23 "I'm not involved in all that, Brdjanin is handling that."

24 And so on and so forth. The conversation continues along the

25 same lines.

Page 29671

1 Was Mr. Karadzic always against the unification of those two

2 Krajinas?

3 A. Mr. Karadzic ran in the elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and when

4 he did that he showed that he wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to be a state

5 where Serbs would be able to exercise their basic rights, to be

6 protected, where the Serbs would be able to develop and advance.

7 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 21323 receives Exhibit

10 Number D854, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D854 is admitted.

12 MR. LUKIC: And one more document, Your Honours. I will be

13 finished with the ...

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 MR. LUKIC: Another document is in connection with paragraph 41

16 of Mr. Kupresanin's statement, and I would kindly ask to have

17 65 ter number on our screens, 16598.

18 [Interpretation] This has to do with financing the army; that

19 that's paragraph of the statement. Also, there's a reference to

20 logistics; logistical support to the Army of Republika Srpska, that is.

21 While commenting on this document in his statement,

22 Mr. Kupresanin pointed out that he had never seen that document, or

23 rather, that he doesn't remember it. However --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: He can tell us what you're telling us.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, he said what it was that he

Page 29672

1 knew so now I'm going to ask him.

2 Q. You see the document before you, Mr. Kupresanin?

3 A. I have trouble reading it, so let me try with my glasses now.

4 Q. The 23rd of June, 1992 is the date. It was sent by the

5 1st Krajina Corps to the Assembly and the government of the Autonomous

6 Region of Bosanska Krajina.

7 A. I understand. I understand.

8 Q. In the first paragraph, it says:

9 "As the command of the 1st Krajina Corps, we are compelled to

10 address you and inform you that we have received a document from the

11 Government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, saying that they will

12 continue funding the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH only until the

13 20th of May, 1992 ..."

14 The entire document goes along these lines. This is what I'm

15 going to ask you: Do you remember this problem? Do you remember how it

16 was resolved?

17 A. Well, it didn't appear only in Banja Luka, that problem. It was

18 in all the municipalities. Quite simply, the Yugoslav army was

19 withdrawing to Yugoslavia from the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And then

20 we were compelled to make our own army, the Army of Republika Srpska, and

21 to support it. Since Republika Srpska had not been created as a state

22 yet, then it was the municipal budgets that had to support the army. So

23 this was only to be expected, this document, and it circulated through

24 all the municipalities.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kupresanin.

Page 29673

1 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document as well, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 16598 receives Exhibit

4 Number D855, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

6 MR. LUKIC: I do not have any more questions for Mr. Kupresanin.

7 Only if you want me to deal with the associated exhibits, we will not

8 propose three of the documents from the original list.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but still a large number remaining, a

10 relatively large number.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yeah -- that's that type of the statement,

12 Your Honour. That statement would not be understood properly without the

13 documents since this gentleman commented on the overall situation through

14 the documents.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll consider that. But before we even move

16 to that, I would have a short question in relation to the paragraph that

17 we just looked at, that is paragraph 41, and your answers in relation to

18 the -- to what the document you were not familiar with are about.

19 Witness, in paragraph 41, I read:

20 "Given that the central state was not functioning, someone had to

21 provide logistical support so the burden fell on the municipalities ..."

22 The "central state," was that a reference to the Federal Republic

23 of Yugoslavia? Or was it a reference to the newly established -- what

24 then became the Republika Srpska?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the newly established

Page 29674

1 Republika Srpska.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although what was read from the document at

3 this moment was about the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia not giving any

4 further support.

5 Could I then ask you whether - and then I'm focusing primarily on

6 the paragraph you were asked about - was any support received in whatever

7 way by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which would support the

8 operations and the functioning of the VRS?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 20th of May, the Yugoslav

10 army withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, the state of Yugoslavia

11 also withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina. What remained of the Army of

12 Yugoslavia in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina became ours; the

13 technical assets, the equipment that remained. We took that - it

14 belonged to us then - and we attached that to the Army of

15 Republika Srpska. I know that from Yugoslavia we most often received aid

16 in terms of food, medicine, clothing, and these hospitals in Serbia

17 treated our patients if we could not manage that in Republika Srpska. So

18 they helped in different ways.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say "food, medicine, clothing," are you

20 meaning -- or are you including food for the army, medicine for soldiers,

21 and clothing for members of the army?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we had to do that too,

23 Republika Srpska, except that Yugoslavia paid for a number of officers.

24 All the rest became the burden of Republika Srpska. Some of the officers

25 who were in the army, and the higher officers withdrew to Yugoslavia and

Page 29675

1 towns in Yugoslavia quite -- actually, very few remained in our parts.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to go to the line where you say that

3 the central state was not functioning. Does that mean that the newly

4 established republic in no way provided any money and, for example,

5 ammunition, or was it just that you were entirely left to the local

6 communities to provide you with whatever was needed?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at first, yes, that way. As

8 for arms, ammunition, we had that; however, as far as food is concerned

9 and some other things that have to do with the army, clothing, then that

10 was done by the local organs of government in the municipality. Until

11 the Republika Srpska was properly established, then some of these

12 resources arrived through the Ministry of Defence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the time-frame from paragraph 41 is rather

14 limited, that is, in the very early stages of the existence of the newly

15 established republic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.

18 Mr. Lukic, perhaps we later deal with the associated exhibits.

19 Let's see what happens during cross-examination and then, at the end,

20 we'll deal with those.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps Mr. Lukic could put the numbers of the

22 three documents he's not going to tender here on the record so that we

23 have a clear picture.

24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we are not going to tender 09690,

25 65 ter --

Page 29679

1 Q. Sir, you testified in the Karadzic case just over a year ago. Is

2 it your position that you told the truth in that testimony?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001;

5 correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. It's also your position that you told the truth in that

8 interview; right?

9 A. Well, it was so long ago. There's a lot of it that I don't

10 remember, but I think so.

11 Q. It was a long time ago and much closer to the events described in

12 your statement. Would it be fair to say that your recollection of those

13 events was clearer in 2001 than it is today?

14 A. Well, probably, yes.

15 Q. And, sir, I'm going to start with the last topic you discussed

16 with Mr. Lukic, the provision of logistical support to VRS units in the

17 ARK.

18 Now, this Chamber received evidence just two days ago that the

19 1st Krajina Corps continued receiving logistical support, both weaponry

20 and financial, from the SFRY through the Main Staff. Now, you weren't

21 part of that chain of support yourself; right?

22 A. Well, this is the first time I hear of this.

23 Q. And so you're not aware of the magnitude or extent of the support

24 that the VRS or the 1st Krajina Corps was receiving; right?

25 A. No. I know that the Yugoslav army, with its generals, and

Page 29680

1 Blagoje Adzic was one of the key generals, they came to us to take the

2 weapons that were located in our parts. They asked for aircraft, tanks,

3 rockets. That's what they were looking for. And they didn't bring in

4 anything. I don't know them bringing anything.

5 Q. You weren't a member of the VRS in May 1992; right?

6 A. May 1992, no, no.

7 Q. The Chamber has also received evidence that VRS forces in the ARK

8 had large amounts of tanks, rockets, other types of weaponry at that

9 time; you're certainly aware of that, right?

10 A. Well, I knew that they had weapons that were not there

11 momentarily, but when Yugoslavia disintegrated lots of these weapons from

12 Croatia and Slovenia were brought to our area, to Sarajevo, to all parts

13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Brought there -- many were brought from Croatia to the area of

15 the ARK by the JNA; right?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Those weapons were inherited by the VRS when it was created in

18 May 1992; right?

19 A. Well, probably.

20 Q. Your position at the time was that this gave the VRS a massive

21 military advantage; right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. And since you mentioned tanks, I'm going to look at just one

24 example of something you said during the war.

25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 02366. This is going to be a

Page 29681

1 transcript of the 24th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly. I'm

2 going to ask for page 77 in the English and 53 in the B/C/S.

3 Q. This is a portion of a speech that you gave at the Assembly, and

4 in the bottom paragraph on our screens in both languages, you say:

5 "Now we go back to this. We had aviation, howitzers, tanks,

6 cannons, but what did Muslims have? Some gun, some machine-gun that they

7 bought from the Serbs, and homemade guns."

8 This is an example of you expressing the position we discussed a

9 moment ago, that, at the beginning of the war, the VRS had a massive

10 military advantage; right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I believe this Assembly session has

13 already been marked for identification as P6921 and that number has been

14 reserved for excerpts from it. We'll just make sure this is among those

15 excerpts.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second.

17 Mr. Mladic, you're not there to give instructions for the

18 curtains to be pulled up. You're not in the position to give any

19 instructions. If there's any matter you would like to raise, then you

20 can do that through counsel. Switch off your microphone, switch off.

21 Then let's get back to -- yes, this will then be a part of that

22 selection to be made from this Assembly session. That's hereby on the

23 record, also what you read to the witness. Please proceed.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn back to your positions now.

Page 29682

1 You mention in paragraph 1 of your statement that you were

2 president of the Assembly of the ZOBK and later --

3 A. Yes, I was, yes.

4 Q. -- of the ARK. In both cases --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In both cases, your vice-president of the Assembly was the same

7 man; right?

8 A. It was Brdjanin, Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 Q. The ARK Assembly also had an Executive Council beginning early in

10 1992; right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And who was the president of the Executive Council?

13 A. Nikola Erceg. First it was Andjelko Grahovac, and then he was

14 replaced. And then Nikola Erceg came to that position.

15 Q. You don't mention your position in your statement, but you were a

16 member of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And the president of that Crisis Staff was Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. As president, he would preside over all the meetings of the ARK

21 Crisis Staff; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He would propose the topics to be discussed?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. When a meeting was going to be held, you would be notified by

Page 29683

1 phone; right?

2 A. Well, it depended.

3 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 31770, page 23 in the English, 33

4 in the B/C/S.

5 Q. And as it comes up, this will be a portion of your OTP interview.

6 We see at the bottom of the page -- we had previously seen at the

7 bottom of the page in the English but we now no longer have the right

8 pages. Can we have 23 in the English, 33 in the B/C/S.

9 At the bottom of the page in the English and the top of the page

10 in the B/C/S, you're being asked first:

11 "Isn't it correct that even though you did not attend some

12 meetings, but you were present in most of those meetings, ARK

13 Crisis Staff and War Presidency meetings?"

14 And you respond:

15 "It's possible."

16 You were asked:

17 "How would you receive information about a meeting that is going

18 to be held, the ARK Crisis Staff meeting?"

19 And you say:

20 "On the phone, by the phone."

21 And you're asked:

22 "And you, who'd call you on the phone to inform about the

23 meeting?"

24 And you answer -- and I think we turn to the next page in the

25 English here:

Page 29684

1 "I think again it would be Radic, Radic's -- or it was Radic's

2 secretary."

3 Did that refresh your recollection as to how you would be

4 notified about Crisis Staff meetings?

5 A. Well, I've already said, there were different ways: By

6 telephone, during meetings. The important thing was that I was informed.

7 Q. And just for the clarity of the record, Radic's secretary who

8 sometimes informed you, that was Predrag Radic's secretary; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was his position?

11 A. He was the president of Banja Luka municipality.

12 Q. Someone from the 1st Krajina Corps, either General Talic or

13 someone deputised to attend in his place, would always attend ARK

14 Crisis Staff meetings; right?

15 A. If the general himself was not there, his deputy would be, yes.

16 Q. And in 1992, you often saw General Talic visiting the municipal

17 building in Banja Luka; right?

18 A. I saw him only once at a Crisis Staff meeting. He may have been

19 there several times, but I didn't see him. And, yes, I did see him in

20 the municipality building.

21 Q. You often saw him in the municipality building, setting aside the

22 reasons he was there; correct?

23 A. I believe that he visited the president of the municipality and

24 perhaps somebody else as well, maybe the president of the Executive Board

25 who was in charge of the money.

Page 29685

1 Q. Setting aside who he was visiting, so I'm not asking you about

2 that at the moment, he was often in the municipal building; right?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And Stojan Zupljanin, the head of the CSB, also was often in the

5 municipal building; right?

6 A. I saw him as well.

7 Q. And either he or someone else from the police would attend every

8 Crisis Staff meeting; right?

9 A. I did not see Stojan Zupljanin ever at the Crisis Staff meeting,

10 at least at those meetings that I attended. I saw Djuro Golic, his

11 deputy. I didn't see Stojan Zupljanin at a Crisis Staff meeting ever.

12 Q. You would often see him together with the Crisis Staff president,

13 Mr. Brdjanin; right?

14 A. I can't say that I saw him often. I didn't even see the

15 president of the Crisis Staff often. I suppose that they did

16 communicate, but I didn't see them together.

17 Q. Well, in the same document, 65 ter 31770, if we could have

18 page 28 in the English and 40 in the B/C/S.

19 So at the top of the page, line 5 in the B/C/S, you can see

20 you're being asked:

21 "Did you see Radoslav Brdjanin and Stojan Zupljanin coming

22 together in the municipal building?"

23 And you answered:

24 "I didn't see them in -- in the building, municipal building, but

25 I would see them in the hotel. I would often see them in hotels."

Page 29686

1 That's the truth, what you said in 2001, that you often saw

2 Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Stojan Zupljanin together; right?

3 A. It is possible.

4 Q. At the moment I'm not asking whether it's possible. What you

5 said in 2001 on this subject, that was the truth, you often saw them

6 together in 1991 and 1992; right?

7 A. I suppose that that was the case. I can't remember anymore.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, under the circumstances, I'd tender

10 this page of the witness's interview.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6994, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

14 MR. TRALDI: And ...

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, have you uploaded the separate page because we

17 have now -- of course, now it's the whole of the document which is in

18 evidence because this is how you uploaded it, and we are talking about 77

19 pages, Mr. Traldi.

20 MR. TRALDI: I'm not seeking to tender the entire interview,

21 Mr. President. At the same time, I'd suggest it would be most efficient,

22 as this may recur, to upload a version only after the completion of the

23 witness's testimony.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. And we'll then instruct

25 Madam Registrar to replace the 77-page document by the one page then

Page 29687

1 uploaded.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to play a clip from

4 Exhibit P4338.

5 Q. And, sir, this will be a portion of a rally held in Banja Luka in

6 1994.

7 MR. TRALDI: I'm told for the booths that I should mention this

8 is the third clip in the transcript.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And has it -- has the text been verified already or

10 should we play it twice, Mr. Traldi?

11 MR. TRALDI: I'm in your hands. I'm reminded that it is an

12 admitted exhibit.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's an admitted exhibit. I apologise.

14 MR. TRALDI: I'm told we're having a technical problem, and so

15 I'll move on to my next topic and we'll simply come back to this.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do as you suggest.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. So, sir, I'm going to turn then to the topic of regionalisation.

19 Now, there were two regional bodies in the -- established in the

20 Bosnian Krajina, first the ZOBK and then the ARK; right?

21 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, it was one body but it changed its

22 name. First it was the community of municipalities of Bosnian Krajina,

23 and then it changed its name to the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina,

24 but it was one and the same body.

25 Q. Now, you were describing that transition in your OTP interview,

Page 29688

1 and you said:

2 "All of a sudden it happened that it was allowed to establish

3 such a region."

4 That happened in September 1991, that it was suddenly allowed to

5 establish an autonomous region; right?

6 A. Not in September, but in April, on the 24th of April, that's when

7 the region was established. This is the truth. I don't know about

8 September.

9 Q. Sorry, sir, I'm distinguishing now, and I think the date you're

10 referring to is the date of the creation of the ZOBK, the community;

11 right?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. The region, on the other hand, the ARK, that was established in

14 September; right?

15 A. Very well.

16 Q. And when you said in your interview:

17 "All of a sudden it was allowed to establish such a region ..."

18 It also became allowed in September of 1991; right?

19 A. It was prescribed by the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 The Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina provided for the right to

21 establish a region, and then when we were going to do it, that was up to

22 us. It had nothing to do with either the month of April or the month of

23 September.

24 Q. Well, speaking specifically of the ARK, I'd like to look at

25 65 ter 10741.

Page 29689

1 Now, this is a document coming from the Sarajevo city board of

2 the SDS, and looking just below point 1, we read:

3 "By this we appoint the Staff for observation of implementation

4 of the Decision ..."

5 And in the first point:

6 "On promulgation of autonomous regions as unquestionable parts of

7 the federal state of Yugoslavia and as constituent parts of the federal

8 unit of Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

9 So the SDS board in Sarajevo is referring to a specific decision

10 taken to promulgate autonomous regions; right?

11 A. Not the regions, but the SAO. The only region where I was

12 present was the ARK, and the rest were Serbian autonomous provinces or --

13 yes, the Serbian autonomous provinces.

14 Q. Now, this refers to, in point 2, a decision and conclusions

15 adopted at the Pale symposium of municipal, regional, and republic SDS

16 organs of 7 September 1991. As a member of the Main Board, you would

17 have attended that symposium; right?

18 A. From the moment it was established, the Serbian Democratic Party

19 had two Main Boards. I did not attend the first board -- or, rather, I

20 was not its member. It was only the second board that I was a member of.

21 I don't know when that happened and -- well, there is a possibility that

22 I was a member thereof.

23 MR. TRALDI: If you'd give me just a moment. I apologise,

24 Your Honours.

25 Q. So when you say in paragraph 1 of your statement that you were a

Page 29690

1 member of the SDS Main Board, do you recall the dates today on which you

2 were a member?

3 A. I can't remember. It was perhaps a year later that I became a

4 member of the Main Board. The first Main Board may have been in place

5 for a year, and then a year after that a new Main Board was established

6 and I may have been a member of that.

7 Q. So the new Main Board -- in fact, that would have been

8 established at the anniversary session of the SDS in July of 1991; right?

9 A. Quite possible at the Assembly, because the Assembly established

10 it. I believe that that was on the 12th of July in -- at the Holiday Inn

11 hotel.

12 Q. So then you were a member of the Main Board by the time -- sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness add what year he's referring to.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That could have been in 1991. But

15 I was a member of the Assembly, not of the Main Board. And maybe at that

16 Assembly meeting, I was also selected as a member of the Main Board.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. As of the date we see here, September 1991, you were in fact a

19 member of the SDS Main Board, weren't you?

20 A. I don't know when the second Main Board was established, if it

21 was then. And if it says that I was there, then I was.

22 Q. Do you recall attending this Pale symposium of SDS organs on the

23 7th of September, 1991?

24 A. I can't remember that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi -- let me just have a look. The

Page 29691

1 correction of the year in paragraph 1 was from 1992 to 199 --

2 MR. TRALDI: 1990.

3 JUDGE ORIE: 90. Now, we are talking about the 12th of July --

4 let me just have a look.

5 I asked you what year. You said it was 1991, not 1990?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first Main Board was set up in

7 1990, and then a reformed Main Board was established in 1991. Some

8 people left, some people were recruited into that new Main Board, and all

9 of that happened on the 12th of July.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, one question: Was the new board -- is it

11 just that there were new members, that it still was the Main Board of the

12 SDS but different people in that Main Board, or was it a different

13 institution, different body?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the same body. Some people

15 left, some people joined, that was all.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI: Before I do, Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10741 receives Exhibit Number P6995,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P6995 is admitted.

23 MR. TRALDI: And mindful of the date of the symposium we just

24 looked at, the 7th of September, I'd ask that we call up 65 ter 20232.

25 Q. As it comes up, another member of the SDS Main Board at the time

Page 29692

1 was Jovan Tintor; right?

2 A. "Da."

3 Q. Now, this is a conversation between him and someone named

4 Mirko Jovic. Toward the bottom of page in both languages, Mr. Tintor

5 says:

6 "You know what? We have no, we have no specifics. There will be

7 changes tomorrow ... we passed ... we passed a decision yesterday that

8 Bosnia can remain ... err ... officially ... but we'll split it into

9 Serbian Bosnia, Croatian Bosnia, Muslim Bosnia. Everyone should have

10 their own and ... that'll explode like a bomb tomorrow."

11 He's describing the decision reached on the 7th of September,

12 1991; right?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: I'm not objecting to the question. I just want to

15 know if there is more documents that would be used and that are not on

16 the list? This document is not on the list. There is many documents,

17 but not this one.

18 MR. TRALDI: We'll double-check that, and I'm happy to confer

19 with Mr. Lukic at the break with my outline and the list, but I don't

20 have the list in front of me.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if any problem remains, Mr. Lukic, we'll

22 hear after the break.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. TRALDI: And I apologise to Mr. Lukic obviously for the

25 omission.

Page 29693

1 Q. Sir, when Mr. Tintor refers to a decision that will explode like

2 a bomb, he's referring to the decision on the 7th of September, 1991;

3 right?

4 A. I know Jovan Tintor, but I also know Mirko Jovic. Mirko Jovic

5 did not live in Republika Srpska. He lived in the Republic of Serbia in

6 Stara Pazova --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please answer the question,

8 whether, as far as you're aware of, Mr. Tintor refers to the decision

9 mentioned by Mr. Traldi.

10 MR. LUKIC: Now I would object. Because how would he know?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if he doesn't know, he'll tell us.

12 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Yeah, asking him to --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't. I

14 can't remember.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's the same question you didn't object to in the

16 first place.

17 MR. LUKIC: Now he was asked whether he knows what other men

18 meant.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not -- let's not split hairs over that

20 at this moment.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would tender this document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 MR. LUKIC: We would object to have this document in the

25 evidence.

Page 29694

1 JUDGE ORIE: And the basis for your objection, Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: Not -- there was no connection established and he

3 knows nothing about this conversation, or he maybe knows but it is not

4 established. I don't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It is, I think, common practice in this courtroom

6 that evidence closely linked to events described by a witness, even if a

7 witness is not aware of that, can be tendered and will be admitted in

8 that context.

9 MR. LUKIC: And --

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- if there is any issue --

11 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, I don't have that document in front

12 of me since it's something new. It's not on the list and it's not given

13 to me.

14 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to postpone my request.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different objection. Then you should say:

16 Could I have my time to respond because I don't have it at this moment.

17 That's different from the objection you raised.

18 MR. LUKIC: But I could --

19 JUDGE ORIE: But this is granted. We'll mark it for

20 identification, and we'll hear from you -- we'll hear from you once you

21 have had the time to have a closer look at it.

22 Madam Registrar, the document would be ...

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 20232 receives MFI P6996,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.

Page 29695

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. TRALDI: Sir -- and can we have 65 ter 08469.

3 Q. And this will be the 12 July 1991 session of the SDS that I was

4 referring to.

5 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 126 in the English and 115

6 in the B/C/S, please.

7 Q. We see here that 45 members have been elected to the Main Board

8 at this session. If I direct your attention to the name at number 12,

9 does that refresh your recollection as to whether it was in fact July

10 1991 when you yourself were elected to the SDS Main Board?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. And the gentleman at number 8, we see Mr. Tintor was also elected

13 at that time; right?

14 A. I don't remember. I know that I was elected.

15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, it's a long document. I just ask that

16 it be marked for identification at this point.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you would then make a further selection later?

18 MR. TRALDI: I would, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08469 receives MFI P6997, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.

22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06875, and I can tell Mr. Lukic

23 that this one isn't on my list because it's on his. And this should be

24 the statute of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. If we could have page 2

25 in both languages at the top.

Page 29696

1 Q. And we see here at the top that nine days after that symposium at

2 Pale was when the Autonomous Region of Krajina was established, right,

3 the 16th of September, 1991?

4 A. I don't think that it had anything to do with the establishment

5 of the autonomous region; I mean that meeting at Pale. We established

6 the autonomous region even before the political position was voiced. I

7 don't know what happened next, I wasn't there, I don't remember. And the

8 instructions that you have referred to and that you relate to September,

9 I don't know anything about that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, witness --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it wasn't the SDS who told us to

12 set up the autonomous region --

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- let me stop you there. The simple question was

14 whether this was the 16th of September, and Mr. Traldi says that that's

15 nine days after the symposium. You know, new year six days after at

16 least our Christmas, that doesn't mean that new year is caused by

17 Christmas. There was no question about a causal relationship; it was

18 just establishing a frame. And whatever Mr. Traldi wants to conclude

19 from that -- he didn't ask you -- and we understand it to be just those

20 dates.

21 Please proceed. And, Mr. Traldi, you are aware that if you

22 wanted to suggest something, then of course it should be made explicit

23 and then we would -- it sounds a bit like argument, it must be a

24 relation, although it was not part of your question.

25 Please proceed.

Page 29697

1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this be admitted as an

2 associated exhibit. It should get a D number.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well -- yes, it was on the list of associated

4 exhibits; therefore, we do not wait further.

5 The D number for this document, Madam Registrar, would be ...

6 THE REGISTRAR: D856, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D856 is admitted.

8 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 03173.

9 Q. Now, we see here -- and there are a number of articles on the

10 B/C/S page. Do you see the boxed article regarding the declaration of an

11 autonomous region?

12 I see you've nodded, but can you confirm orally that you've seen

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, this is from Javnost and it's dated 14 September 1991. And

16 the article explains that on the 12th of September, 1991, the community

17 of municipalities of eastern and old Herzegovina decided to proclaim the

18 Serbian Autonomous District of Herzegovina which would be an integral

19 part of the federal state of Yugoslavia and the federal unit of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina.

21 This is also just a few days after the 7 September conference;

22 right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. So I'm putting to you that it is not a coincidence that the

25 25 September decision from the Sarajevo board refers to a 7 September

Page 29698

1 decision, a 7 September symposium, it says a decision was taken to

2 establish autonomous regions, five days later SAO Herzegovina declared,

3 nine days later the ARK declared. I'm putting to you that that's not a

4 coincidence; that's because these regions were set up at central

5 direction. That's true, isn't it?

6 A. My region where I was president has nothing to do with this date

7 or the Serb party.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was not the question.

9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do we understand the answer to be that -- that

11 you consider it to be a coincidence that these regions were set up and

12 that you are not aware or even deny that they were set up at a central

13 direction. Is that -- you deny that, is that -- or are you not aware of

14 it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about myself and my region.

16 It has nothing to do with the centre and I don't know about the others.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's a clear answer.

18 Then Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03173 receives Exhibit Number P6998,

20 Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

22 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have 65 ter 20559; this is another

23 associated exhibit. And this will be an intercepted conversation between

24 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Stevandic dated the 11th of January, 1992. Turning

25 to page 6 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S.

Page 29699

1 Q. Mr. Karadzic, President Karadzic, asks Mr. Stevandic:

2 "Well, who invented the regionalisation, was it them or did I

3 invent it?"

4 And Stevandic explains what the leaders in the ARK want, and

5 Karadzic responds:

6 "Listen Nenad, well they cannot... well, we have all of that in

7 the plans, we have all moves in the envelopes, they must not do it before

8 we do it in the whole of Bosnia. Why are they playing smart? They are

9 explaining my policy to me..."

10 And if we turn now to page 11, page 7 in the B/C/S, Stevandic

11 says:

12 "Let me tell you we can't make a round of three houses if we

13 don't support the Krajina option."

14 And Karadzic says:

15 "What do you mean by the Krajina option?"

16 Stevandic says:

17 "The option of that regionalisation and that matter."

18 And President Karadzic says:

19 "The regionalisation has been carried out. What else needs to be

20 done?"

21 Stevandic responds:

22 "Well, Krajina institutions, specifically the government ..."

23 And President Karadzic says:

24 "Well, it will be ... well, why are they being smartasses?! That

25 was my idea, not theirs! ..."

Page 29700

1 What President Karadzic is expressing in this conversation is

2 that regionalisation was his policy; right?

3 A. I don't think it was his policy. You see that he was late with

4 these proposals and ideas. We were ahead of him. And it's not correct

5 that it's his idea. The entire Krajina was in favour of regions.

6 President Karadzic was not the SDS on his own. The party had its organs,

7 made these decisions and all that. But we, before the SDS, all of us,

8 even other parties too, and all parties in the Krajina, we were in favour

9 of regions in the Krajina, at least at first. He didn't like that.

10 That's the way it was.

11 Q. The reason you and Mr. Karadzic were moving at different speeds

12 was that, as you've just testified, was that he had a specific plan for

13 when different steps should be implemented; right?

14 A. I don't know what was in his head. We thought of what was our

15 own interest and what would be of benefit to us, and he probably thought

16 that he should have a say in everything and that he should say whatever

17 was supposed to be done. We were so interested in that because we were

18 so backward economically. And also, these relations between and amongst

19 us were not all that great. Well, you see --

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. -- our thinking went along different lines --

22 Q. I think you've gone somewhat beyond the question I asked you.

23 MR. TRALDI: Before I move on, I'd ask that this be given a D

24 number as well.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put first one question to the witness.

Page 29701

1 In your statement, paragraph 27, you talk about this

2 conversation, this intercept, and there you say:

3 "Dr. Karadzic popularised the power of Sarajevo, both in terms of

4 the party and the Sarajevo government in general."

5 Can you explain what you mean by that, that he "popularised the

6 power of Sarajevo"?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what does it mean? He said

8 one thing and did something else. What we considered to be our political

9 position, that we would have practical advantages from, he sidestepped

10 that and he kept saying that we were right and that there would be a

11 position when we could realise all our positions and we were impatient

12 and we simply did not take into account Radovan Karadzic. At least it

13 seemed to us that Radovan was doing what Alija was doing.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But again, what do you mean by the term

15 "popularised the power of Sarajevo"? What does that mean? Just explain,

16 please, the term you used in your statement.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I meant political

18 concentration and concentration of capital in Sarajevo, as was the case.

19 We created a region so that this capital, which enormously prevailed in

20 Sarajevo, turning Sarajevo into a major city, we were looking at lawful

21 ways of returning this to us because we were visibly poorer than

22 Sarajevo. That was a thorn in our side, and when we addressed Radovan on

23 that topic he evaded the issue and avoided us as far as the community of

24 municipalities of the Bosnian Krajina is concerned.

25 You see here how he is imposing this on Stevandic, that he is

Page 29702

1 right, and he wasn't right.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Shall I take it that he was in favour of keeping

4 together Bosnia and Herzegovina with the capital of Sarajevo as the seat

5 of the government? Or what do you mean by that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, that's the way he

7 behaved, let me tell you. There was an attempt to unite the two

8 Krajinas, the one in Croatia and the one that we have here in Bosnia, and

9 that project of unification is something that he stopped.

10 So Radovan Karadzic all the time fought for an Avnoj

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the preservation of an Avnoj Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 And he kept insisting on that all the time, it prevailed all the time.

13 People from the Krajina, from the Serb Krajina, there was this

14 declaration that the Republic of Serb Krajina would be annexed to the

15 rest of Yugoslavia. So our objective was that that part of the Serb

16 people that was in Croatia and that had lived through terrible things and

17 a terrible crime was committed against them --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- during the Second World War, we

20 wanted to annex them to us, and --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You went far beyond my question. Thank you very

22 much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me also see whether I now fully understand.

24 Do I understand that you intended to say that Dr. Karadzic

25 claimed that the power should be in Sarajevo, both party power and

Page 29703

1 government power, and not in the regions and that he imposed more or less

2 his will on the regions, at least he tried to do so? Is that how I have

3 to understand your testimony?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Obviously the headquarters of

5 the party was in Sarajevo. He never intended to move the party or any

6 organisation that had to do with the Serb people to Banja Luka. He was

7 firmly attached to Sarajevo and --

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I suggested. What I suggested as my

9 understanding of what your testimony now is, is that he claimed that the

10 power should be at the central level rather than in the region, both in

11 terms of --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there's any translation issue

16 there, but "popularised" seems not to be a word that expresses what we

17 now all understand to be the testimony of the witness.

18 Mr. Lukic -- but the witness has explained it now, but if there's

19 any translation issue, then it should be sorted out.

20 It's time for a break, Mr. Traldi. But you first, I take it,

21 wanted to have a decision on tendering this document.

22 Madam Registrar, it is ...

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 20559 receives Exhibit

24 Number D857, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: D857 is admitted.

Page 29704

1 Mr. Kupresanin, we'll take a break and we'd like to see you back

2 in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, while we're waiting for the witness to

8 be escorted into the courtroom, perhaps you could already inform the

9 Registry which would be the next document you would like to have a look

10 at.

11 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. 11778, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want it immediately on the screen or just --

13 MR. TRALDI: That's fine, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be on notice? Okay.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 MR. TRALDI: And -- I'll wait.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI:

19 Q. Sir, this is an interview with President Karadzic published in

20 Srpsko Oslobodjenje.

21 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 3 in the English, page 2

22 in the B/C/S, top of the first column.

23 Q. President Karadzic is being asked about the SDS's role in the

24 political struggle through the pre-war Parliament of the former

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in the middle of his answer, he says the

Page 29705

1 following:

2 "It was a very successful period of political struggle and the

3 Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives" --

4 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking.

5 Mr. Stojanovic, if you keep your earphones on, if Mr. Mladic

6 wants to consult, he has to speak loudly. So would you please then come

7 closer to Mr. Mladic, take off your earphones, so that he can whisper

8 rather than speak aloud.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will. But by the time,

11 Your Honour, I take off my headphones ...

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think my guidance was clear.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. Sir, directing your attention to a portion of

16 President Karadzic's answer here, he says:

17 "It was a very successful period of political struggle and the

18 Serbian Democratic Party and its representatives to the former Assembly

19 came through as the moral winners. We had a list of the actions and

20 steps to take, but we always waited for the Muslims to make a mistake,

21 and after they made one, we created a union of municipalities and the

22 Serbian autonomous areas next, followed by the regions and eventually our

23 Assembly and finally republic."

24 What Karadzic is saying here is, again, that the establishment of

25 autonomous regions was his policy; right?

Page 29706

1 A. I don't know whether that was his policy. He's talking about

2 good relations, co-operation, policy, successful policy. He had the law,

3 he had the state, he had the constitution, and what was offered to us on

4 the basis of the constitution is something that we tried to use, and

5 there's no special diplomacy, no special thing about any of this. I

6 don't know how come this text came about. No one prevented us from

7 having regions in Bosnia. Why --

8 Q. Sir --

9 A. -- blowing it out of proportion? Why making such an effort to

10 say --

11 Q. Again, I think you've gone well beyond the question I asked you.

12 MR. TRALDI: I'd simply tender this document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was your question actually answered?

15 MR. TRALDI: No, and -- so I'll repeat it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Traldi, what you are asking is the witness

17 to interpret the words. What apparently you intend to do is to put to

18 the witness that, contrary to what he said, Mr. Karadzic here apparently

19 is giving a different view on the matters and whether he has any comment

20 on that. That is apparently what you are seeking to do, and the question

21 may easily lead to the kind of answers which are not answers to your

22 question. I leave it to you whether you still want to pursue the matter

23 or whether you would just want the document to be tendered.

24 MR. TRALDI: I take the point, Mr. President, and I think the

25 most efficient way is simply to tender the document. I agree.

Page 29707

1 JUDGE ORIE: We -- Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 11778 receives Exhibit Number

3 P6999, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: P6999 is admitted.

5 MR. TRALDI: Now I'm going to ask that 65 ter 05995 be brought to

6 the screen.

7 Q. While it comes up, you testified today that you agreed with

8 Mr. Lukic that the objective behind the establishment of regions and the

9 ZOBK specifically was to be the root of a strong Bosnia. In 1992 you

10 believed that the task of the ARK was to "destroy Alija's state";

11 correct?

12 A. When did I say that in 1992? I don't remember that. I don't

13 remember that I said that Alija's state should be destroyed and that the

14 region is a strong Bosnia.

15 I said that the region was the result of the constitutional law,

16 and I don't know when it was that I said that Bosnia should be destroyed.

17 Do help me, show me some documents, something. These are just

18 assumptions. I mean, I really don't know that I said that.

19 Q. Sir, this is a transcript of the 20th Session of the

20 Republika Srpska Assembly in Bijeljina in 1992.

21 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 70 in the English and 76 in the

22 B/C/S.

23 Q. Here we see you speaking. At the beginning of your remarks, you

24 say:

25 "Mr. President, Honourable Assemblymen.

Page 29708

1 "Last year we built up the region and made it strong with a clear

2 purpose and goal. The task of the region of Krajina was to destroy

3 Alija's state."

4 First, can I take it this refreshes your recollection as to

5 whether you said that?

6 A. Possibly. It's possible I said it. I don't know. When I say

7 "Alija's state," I don't know to what extent it was Alija's state. It

8 was mine as much as it was Alija's, except that Alija was president of

9 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As the second-ranking one, he got --

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. -- 800 something thousand votes at the presidential

12 election and --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were only asked if it refreshes your

14 recollection and it apparently does. You said possibly you said this.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, all right.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Sir, when you mention the region of Krajina that had this task,

19 you're obviously referring to the ARK, right, yes or no?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you mention Alija's state, you are referring to an

22 independent and unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?

23 A. When I'm speaking about Alija's state, I'm talking about the

24 Islamic state, based on the Islamic Declaration that was created by

25 Alija Izetbegovic. When I speak about Alija's state, I'm referring to an

Page 29709

1 Islamic state and the Islamic Declaration.

2 Q. You say next:

3 "I think that other regions followed suit and we were successful

4 in that respect."

5 When you say "other regions," you're referring to the SAOs;

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Turning back to the bottom of page 68 in the English and page 75

9 in the B/C/S, we see a gentleman named Jovo Mijatovic is speaking. Four

10 lines into his remarks, he says something very similar:

11 "At a time when we had to destroy a unitary Bosnia, the SAO

12 regions and districts were politically and territorially the best

13 solution because with them we could round off our territories locally."

14 Mr. Mijatovic is expressing the view that the SAOs were part of

15 destroying the unitary BiH; right?

16 A. That's right.

17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this Assembly session be

18 marked for identification. I'll speak with Mr. Lukic about selections.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask one question.

20 Sir, is this position described by Mr. Mijatovic the same as the

21 position you described a little earlier when you talked of destroying

22 Alija's state?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I speak about Alija's

24 state, I'm speaking about a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, excuse me. Just a second. Is he

Page 29710

1 expressing the same sentiment as you or not? Just answer that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, possibly the same.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number ...

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05995 receives P7000, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: P7000 is marked for identification, and we are

7 waiting for a selection from the Prosecution.

8 I have one additional question. You said when you were talking

9 about Alija's state, you said it was the Islamic state based on the

10 Islamic Declaration. Now, were you destroying a concept or were you

11 destroying what you considered to have become reality at that moment?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reality, and we wanted to break up

13 that concept of an Islamic state.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But you considered it to have become a reality by

15 then. The speech was delivered in September 1992.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. I want to turn back now to 1991, and I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart

19 to play a video which has been assigned 65 ter 22372b. I can say ...

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Mr. President. I can say it's been

22 confirmed by CLSS and only has to be played once.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so therefore the interpretation can be on the

24 basis of the transcript. Please proceed.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 29711

1 JUDGE ORIE: I receive no translation at all. Is there any

2 sound? Is there any audio available to the interpreters?

3 [Video-clip played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

5 "Newscaster: Bosnia and Herzegovina, the so-called plebiscite of

6 the Serb people, has begun earlier today.

7 "Reporter Smiljko Sagolj: Despite decisions of both the

8 constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Presidency of this

9 republic proclaiming the plebiscite of the Serb people unconstitutional

10 and illegal, it is nevertheless taking place.

11 "It did not come unexpectedly because the SDS President,

12 Dr. Radovan Karadzic, was explicit.

13 "Radovan Karadzic: We no longer have any obligations towards the

14 BiH Constitution. We have obligations towards the Constitution of

15 Yugoslavia, which guarantees both our right to self-determination and the

16 right of the people to self-organise.

17 "Reporter: When asked if that wouldn't be an act of

18 unconstitutional destruction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Karadzic replied

19 without a trace of diplomacy, quite unusual for a politician:

20 "Radovan Karadzic: You cannot fuck up the entire Yugoslavia

21 expecting Bosnia to remain a virgin. No way!

22 "Reporter: Let us stress in conclusion that 3 million ballot

23 papers have gone out to polling stations, 2 million for the Serbs, the

24 rest for others. Voting is reportedly also taking place in Serbia, in

25 the US, and everywhere where Serbs live."

Page 29712

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. The plebiscite that you mention in your statement was also a step

3 towards destroying a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

4 A. I don't think that it was a step to break up Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 It was the democratic will of the people to express their political views

6 by way of a referendum. Bosnia-Herzegovina had its referendum - I'm

7 referring to the BH Federation, Muslims and Croats - to the extent to

8 which they had this right, we had that right too. We were all

9 constituent peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this is a democratic right

10 enshrined in international law.

11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender the video.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22372b receives Exhibit Number P7001,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: P7001 is admitted.

16 I see that the CD has been handed over to Madam Registrar.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02335.

19 This is the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly held in December

20 1991.

21 Q. And while it comes up, it was your position that the plebiscite

22 showed what territory belonged to the Serbs; right?

23 A. I did not have a position with regard to those territories, as

24 far as I believe -- I did not even know about some of the territories in

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina where the Serbian population resided.

Page 29713

1 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 26 in the English, 41 in the

2 B/C/S.

3 Q. Now, you're speaking and you say:

4 "Gentlemen, I want to say that we have formed regions which do

5 not have final borders, i.e., just contours, and in order to achieve that

6 I absolutely agree that we should proceed with separating Serb

7 territories, i.e., Serb municipalities in places where that is possible,

8 specifically on the peripheral areas of our region.

9 "In Bosanska Krajina we have the following situation: We have

10 vast territories, specifically in Prijedor where over 70 per cent, even

11 up to 80 per cent, is Serb territory. The plebiscite has shown us

12 accurately which territory is ours, and in accordance with the plebiscite

13 we have to annex this territory."

14 It was, in fact, your position in 1991 that the plebiscite showed

15 what territory belonged to the Serbs; right?

16 A. Not only the Serbs, all the peoples had the right to join other

17 municipalities, or rather, villages had the right to join various

18 municipalities, municipalities could disappear. It was all the people's

19 democratic right --

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. -- they could use the plebiscite to decide who to live with, so

22 territories could be either joined together or separated.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're now giving a long answer explaining

24 your position; however, the same question was put to you before and then

25 you said: "I did not have a position with regard to those territories,

Page 29714

1 as far as I believe."

2 It is now put to you that you said that the plebiscite had

3 determined what was Serb territories, and nothing else was asked.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

5 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S only.

6 Q. You continue and say:

7 "I personally think that our living space and the territory in

8 which we live and work is endangered and we have to avert that danger.

9 Actually, we have to prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and

10 regions."

11 That was also your position as of December 1991; correct?

12 A. Not correct. I never said that. I don't know where this text

13 comes from in the first place.

14 Q. This is a transcript of the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska

15 Assembly, sir. I take it in the context of a political debate at that

16 Assembly, you would have been particularly careful to accurately set out

17 our position on what should be Serb territory; right?

18 A. I never said that people should be prevented from moving into any

19 area. It was everybody's democratic right and it is in compliance with

20 the Geneva Conventions on human rights, which says that everybody has the

21 right to free movement. How can you prevent people from doing that?

22 This has been taken out of some context. I don't know where this is

23 from. I don't think I ever, ever said that.

24 Q. You then say:

25 "In Cazinska Krajina there are between 250.000 and 300.000

Page 29715

1 Muslims in a very small space. We can simply shut them off in that ring

2 and it does not suit us at all for them to join us. It is even suitable

3 for us that they are a separate Krajina, the Cazinska Krajina, which will

4 absolutely depend on us in economic terms."

5 Do you recall saying that?

6 A. I remember that I tried to communicate with Fikret Abdic about

7 our integration, both physical and economic --

8 Q. Sir, sir, I asked you a very simple question. Do you recall

9 saying what the transcript of the 3rd Session of the Republika Srpska

10 Assembly clearly reflects you saying?

11 A. I can't remember.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask one brief question. You

13 earlier - at least that's how it appears on the transcript - refer to the

14 Geneva Conventions on human rights. Can you explain what exactly you

15 refer to?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are basic human rights: The

17 right to property, the right to free movement, the right to life, the

18 right to work. A series of rights that are guaranteed by the

19 international law and various conventions. And one of the rights which

20 is referred to in here is the right to free movement, and the question

21 about that right is whether it was threatened or not.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties in understanding that that

23 is to be found in the Geneva Conventions, but unless you want to further

24 explain to me, I leave it to that.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

Page 29716

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you say that municipalities

3 with a non-Serbian population could join the ARK. So I'd put to you that

4 what you told the Republika Srpska Assembly in December 1991, that it was

5 suitable for the Muslim area to be separate and absolutely dependent,

6 that that's the truth and that your position in your statement is not the

7 truth. Do you have any comment on that?

8 A. You're not right.

9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this Assembly session be

10 marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02335 receives number P7002,

13 Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: P7002 is marked for identification.

15 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 02337. This will

16 be the 4th Session of the Assembly. And if we could have page 37 in the

17 English and 78 in the B/C/S, please.

18 Q. We see here President Karadzic is speaking. Turning to page 38

19 in the English and the B/C/S page 79 towards the bottom, we see him say:

20 "We have the right and the ability to prevent anybody on the

21 territories where we conducted our referendum to secede from Yugoslavia.

22 In all territories where Serbs took part in the referendum, regardless

23 whether they make 5 per cent or 55 per cent of the population, they are

24 the constituent element of that town or that republic. All territories

25 where we voted in our referendum to remain within Yugoslavia must stay

Page 29717

1 within Yugoslavia if we decide so."

2 He's saying essentially what you did, that the plebiscite defined

3 Serb territories; right?

4 A. The plebiscite defined the right to stay in Yugoslavia. We were

5 in Yugoslavia and we wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. That was that.

6 Q. And the territories where the outcome said that, you and

7 Mr. Karadzic were saying those had to be Serb territories; right?

8 A. Not necessarily. Muslim and Croatian territories could be

9 incorporated as well. It depended on who attended the plebiscite. If a

10 nation decided democratically to stay where they were, why prevent them

11 from doing that? We were in Yugoslavia. We wanted to stay in

12 Yugoslavia. We were in Bosnia, we wanted to stay in Bosnia, on a

13 condition that Bosnia stayed in Yugoslavia. That's what we told people.

14 That's how we organised the plebiscite. The constitution in Yugoslavia

15 and Bosnia and Herzegovina perfectly allowed us to do that.

16 Q. Now, at the same Assembly session, speakers, including

17 President Karadzic, made clear that if independence was declared, the

18 results would be disastrous, massive bloodshed, hundreds of thousands of

19 people dead; right?

20 A. I don't know where he said that, where he said that there would

21 be hundreds of thousands of people dead and there would be disastrous

22 consequences. On the 14th of October --

23 Q. Sir --

24 A. -- they proclaimed a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. I'm not asking about the 14th of October. I'm asking about this

Page 29718

1 Assembly session.

2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 40 in the English and the bottom

3 of page 83 in the B/C/S.

4 Q. And while it comes up, you attended this assembly session; right?

5 Sir, I'm not sure if you heard the question at the end. But can

6 you confirm you attended the 4th Session of the Assembly?

7 A. Could you please read again what you have just read about the

8 casualties and disastrous consequences? Can I hear that again?

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come to that in a minute. The first question

10 is now whether you attended that 4th Session.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember whether I attended

12 it or not.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. We'll get to that in a moment, sir. But, first, this is another

16 part of President Karadzic's remarks, and he says:

17 "As rational beings we know what civil war means. The experience

18 of Croatia tells us exactly what civil war has done to us. Apart from

19 causing the deaths of several hundred thousand people and complete

20 destruction of several hundred towns, a civil war in Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina would also result in massive and rapid population movements;

22 in other words, it would lead to population homogenisation."

23 So, first, he's clearly saying here that a civil war would result

24 in the deaths of several hundred thousand people, massive destruction,

25 massive population movement; right?

Page 29719

1 A. It is possible that he said that; however, I did not hear him say

2 that.

3 Q. Can we go back now to page 28 in the English, page 57 in the

4 B/C/S.

5 And here I can tell you the chairman is speaking. And, among

6 other things, we see that he calls for a vote on certain proposals.

7 First, a proposal to emphasise to the president of the United Nations,

8 the embassies in Belgrade, and the member states of the European

9 community that Serbs make up the majority of the population on

10 65 per cent of the territory of BiH which is unanimously approved. This

11 was the proportion of Bosnia's territory that the Bosnian Serbs claimed

12 as theirs; right?

13 A. Remind me, at what Assembly session was that? Where is this

14 document from? What is its origin?

15 Q. This is the transcript of the 4th Session --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't have to inquire into where the

17 document comes from. We leave that to the parties. If there's

18 anything -- if you have -- you were asked whether you have any

19 recollection. And if you're asking for the date, Mr. Traldi will tell

20 you. But where the document comes from is not something you have to

21 worry about. If there's any worries about that, the parties will raise

22 it, unless you have good reasons to claim that it's a forgery or anything

23 else.

24 Please proceed.

25 And if there's anything to your knowledge in that respect, please

Page 29720

1 tell us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember this document.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. Okay. First, do you remember - setting the document aside - that

5 65 per cent of the territory of Bosnia was roughly what the Bosnian Serbs

6 claimed, yes or no?

7 A. Serbia had about 68 per cent of the territory. Now, whether they

8 had the right to claim that is a different question. They had 62,

9 actually, 62 per cent of the territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991

10 and 1992. It's official data.

11 Q. Now, below this --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the witness did not really answer your

13 question.

14 The question was whether the Serbs claimed that territory, not

15 whether they had a right to claim that. As you said, you are uncertain

16 about that. Let's leave apart whether they had a right to do that. The

17 question was whether they claimed that territory. Did they or did they

18 not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was their probably and

20 everything's clear.

21 JUDGE ORIE: By saying "it was their property," do you mean to

22 say that they claimed that their property was theirs?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was private property, and

24 private property is guaranteed. My land, my house, and I had a title of

25 deed before the war and thereafter. I had the right to that property.

Page 29721

1 JUDGE ORIE: But, Witness, this discussion is not about whether I

2 own a piece of land. I think this whole discussion is about who will

3 rule that region or that municipality, so you're now twisting to a

4 different subject. Because the claim is not a claim of property but the

5 claim is a claim of sovereignty or whatever, but rule over those areas.

6 And you are moving away from what clearly is the issue raised by

7 Mr. Traldi.

8 Did the Serbs claim 65 per cent of the territories?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they claimed

10 right, in what territory.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that, again, was not the question but let's

12 move on.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. Below that, we see the decision to establish the Republic of

15 Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was unanimously adopted.

16 And then I think we'd turn to the next page in the B/C/S, or at

17 least scroll to the bottom. We see point 2: "Recognition of the

18 Republic of Serbian Krajina."

19 And you are called upon to read out that proposed decision. Now,

20 does that refresh your recollection as to whether you attended this

21 session?

22 A. I never attended a session where the Republic of Serbian Krajina

23 would be proclaimed. Not that I don't remember. I was never there --

24 Q. Not proclaimed, recognised by the Serb Assembly in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's a decision you read out and turning to the --

Page 29722

1 or scrolling down the page, we can see --

2 A. No, no. I didn't do that. I didn't read out anything. I did

3 not attend that Assembly session. I'm sure that I would remember if I

4 had been. It was a historical moment for the Serbs in Croatia. I'm sure

5 I would remember that.

6 Q. Again, I think you might be misunderstanding my question. I'm

7 not asking about an assembly session where the Republic of Serbian

8 Krajina was declared; I'm asking about a session of the Bosnian Serb

9 Assembly held December 21st, 1991, at which that Assembly, after

10 declaring the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, then recognised

11 the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, if I may, this is --

14 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. Would you be careful. Do we have to

15 ask the witness to take his earphones --

16 MR. LUKIC: No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.

18 MR. LUKIC: The problem I see is we constantly have wrong B/C/S

19 page. So something's -- this is the third time we have wrong B/C/S page

20 in front of the witness; one of them is this one.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then get the right page before us.

22 Mr. Traldi, any suggestion as --

23 MR. TRALDI: It looks like at the bottom of this page we see the

24 decision to form the Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is

25 the one that immediately precedes the one he's called upon to read out.

Page 29723

1 So let's take the next page.

2 JUDGE ORIE: In B/C/S, you mean?

3 MR. TRALDI: In B/C/S, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think this is the right page.

5 Mr. Lukic, it seems that number 2 appears at two-thirds of the

6 page, and I see that Mr. Kupresanin is referred to there, first

7 apparently invited and then appears as a speaker.

8 Perhaps we could move to the next page then in English as well so

9 that we know what Mr. Kupresanin is recorded as having read out.

10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. LUKIC: That is why I asked for the correct page. On the

13 page 67, line 20 and further, the question was about Serbian Krajina.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

15 MR. LUKIC: Was declared. That's completely different.

16 MR. TRALDI: No. At page 67, line 20 and further, I said the

17 question was not about Republic of Serbian Krajina being declared. The

18 question was about him attending a session where the Bosnian Serb

19 Assembly recognised it, and we can see him reading out that decision on

20 this page.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's first -- you are alerted, Mr. Traldi,

22 that Mr. Lukic is -- has some concerns about whether you accurately

23 reflect what is recorded here. I'll take it that you'll keep that in

24 mind.

25 Mr. Lukic, if there's any further problem --

Page 29724

1 MR. LUKIC: I think that I confirmed with my friend, my colleague

2 Stojanovic, but I think it was translated as meaning --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It could be that there is a translation

4 issue. If that's the case, of course Mr. Traldi will accept that, I take

5 it.

6 MR. TRALDI: Of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's now move to where Mr. Kupresanin is recorded

8 as speaking.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. You say:

12 "Serbian ladies and gentlemen, dear guests, let me first of all

13 congratulate you on the establishment of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina and wish you a lot of success and a lot of happiness.

15 "It is my great honour to send this message" --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you're reading.

17 MR. TRALDI: I apologise.

18 Q. "... which I am going to read out in a moment on behalf of the

19 Serbian Assembly" --

20 MR. TRALDI: And we'll have to turn to the next page in the

21 B/C/S.

22 Q. "... and the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to our Serbian

23 people in the former Croatian republic. It reads as follows:

24 "In accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Provisional

25 Statute of the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

Page 29725

1 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina at its Session

2 on 21 December 1991 has adopted a decision on the recognition of the

3 Republic of Serbian Krajina."

4 We see several lines below this that that was unanimously

5 adopted.

6 So does this refresh your recollection as to whether you attended

7 this Assembly session?

8 A. I don't know whether I attended that session. I don't remember

9 that I ever read this out. I don't remember that session at all. I've

10 never seen or heard this before.

11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that this session also be

12 marked for identification.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: 02337 receives P7003, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.

16 Mr. Traldi, it's not the usual time for a break, but I would

17 prefer to have a little bit earlier break. After the break, we would

18 then have another 45 minutes left.

19 Mr. Kupresanin, you may follow the usher. We would like to see

20 you back in 20 minutes.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at 1.30.

23 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

Page 29726

1 MR. TRALDI: If we could for the sake of efficiency pull up

2 65 ter 20628.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 If we could have page 3 in the English, the bottom of page 3 in

7 the B/C/S.

8 Q. Sir, this is a transcript of an intercepted conversation between

9 you and President Karadzic on the 24th of February, 1992. You're

10 talking, as you say in your statement, about negotiations in Lisbon.

11 President Karadzic says:

12 "We achieved maximum success because we achieved that Bosnia

13 cannot be a single state anymore and that it will be composed of three

14 republics. In one paper they even called them states."

15 You ask him who would get the police, and he says:

16 "It would be our police."

17 You say:

18 "Our police on our territory."

19 He says:

20 "Our police on our territory. Our national guard on our

21 territory. Our national guard, and we're pushing further: Our army on

22 our territory ..."

23 Turning to page 6, both languages. You say:

24 "If we already have our territory and our police, then virtually

25 nobody can tell us where our borders are on that territory."

Page 29727

1 President Karadzic says:

2 "Nobody can apart from us."

3 You say:

4 "Apart from us, that's right."

5 He says:

6 "Nobody apart from us."

7 And you say:

8 "That means that practically it's a sovereign, independent

9 state."

10 You and President Karadzic at this point were both seeking to

11 effectively create a Bosnian Serb state; right?

12 A. I know about the Lisbon Agreement. It doesn't put it that way,

13 and this conversation I really cannot remember.

14 Q. I'm not asking you how the Lisbon Agreement puts it, sir. I'm

15 putting to you as of the 24th of February, 1992, you and

16 President Karadzic were both seeking to create a Bosnian Serb state;

17 right?

18 A. I cannot remember this, and I don't know that I talked to Radovan

19 in this way on this topic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, irrespective of this conversation,

21 which Mr. Traldi used as a kind of an introduction, at that point in time

22 were you seeking an independent Bosnian Serb state to be established?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, no.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, the next question would be whether

25 you have any comment on what is recorded here because it at least

Page 29728

1 suggests that you were speaking words to the contrary of the answer you

2 gave a second ago. Any comments?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No comment.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me ask you another question. You just said:

6 "This conversation I really cannot remember."

7 Have you ever seen this transcript of the conversation of the

8 intercepted communication?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time I see

10 it, here.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In paragraph 20 -- just a moment. In

12 paragraph 29 of your statement, you refer to this document and you say:

13 "I have been shown this document," with this number, "a telephone

14 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me."

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that at all.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How is it possible that you talk about this

17 document in your statement of 20 March 2014, this year?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know of the

19 Lisbon Agreement and I know what it offered, and I know that it suited us

20 and that the Muslims were against it. The international community

21 verified that but Alija didn't want to sign it. That is what I know.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, in paragraph 28, you say:

23 "I have been shown document 65 ter 20604, a telephone

24 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me. The conversation shows that

25 Brdjanin and Vukic did not think about the parties' views and just

Page 29729

1 implemented their own ideas" -- sorry, I was at the wrong paragraph.

2 Earlier I said it:

3 "I have been shown document 65 ter 26208, a telephone

4 conversation between Dr. Karadzic and me ..."

5 That was shown to you, according to your own statement, earlier

6 this year. Any comment about that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that that was

8 shown to me, that I had seen that. This is the first I hear about this.

9 I only know of the Lisbon Agreement.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you attested to the truthfulness of your

11 statement. Your statement says: I have been shown document so and so.

12 Therefore, if it is true what you said that you don't remember that I --

13 or that you had not seen that ever before, I would have expected you in

14 court to tell us: Paragraph 29, I don't know whether that's true or not

15 because I have no recollection whatsoever, that this was shown to you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. I mean, I may

17 remember and I may not remember.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, but you should tell us. You attested

19 to the truthfulness of your statement, including paragraph 29.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't remember

21 that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you're telling us in your statement that the

23 conversation concerns the Cutileiro Plan so apparently you have any

24 recollection about the conversation?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I ever

Page 29730

1 discussed the topic with Radovan. There were conversations between him

2 and me, but the Lisbon Agreement, I don't remember that we talked about

3 that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But then you should have told us instead of giving a

5 statement like we find it in paragraph 29. That's your evidence.

6 Apparently you remembered in March that your conversation was

7 about the Cutileiro Plan.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the Cutileiro Plan is,

9 but this conversation, no. Maybe I did talk about that subject, the

10 Cutileiro Plan; but that I talked about it this way, as presented here,

11 questions like this, I don't remember any of this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware that you are undermining your

13 own testimony at this moment by saying: This is the statement, I

14 attested to it a couple of hours ago, and now you say: Well, of course I

15 don't know what this was all about, whether there was a telephone

16 conversation.

17 Was it shown to you in March of this year?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when, when, when did I say a

19 couple of hours ago that I accepted that? When did I accept that a

20 couple of hours ago? When? When?

21 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether this statement you'd given is

22 truthful, and you said it was. Or have you not read the statement prior

23 to coming to this courtroom?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would rather be that I hadn't

25 remember -- that I hadn't read it. I mean, I don't remember this at all,

Page 29731

1 a talk -- a conversation between Radovan and me about the Cutileiro Plan,

2 I have no idea whatsoever.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But you are testifying about that conversation,

4 which you say was shown to you. So I take it that both the transcript of

5 that conversation was shown to you in March, that you recently reviewed

6 your own statement in which you say that it was shown to you and that

7 you're commenting on the conversation.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I would remember that,

9 wouldn't I? When did I see this document? I never saw this document.

10 Had I ever seen it, I would have remembered it. I would have remembered

11 the conversation after all. It was a conversation that was very

12 important for our people, but I don't remember this at all.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please be aware that by saying that it was

14 not shown to you that you are accusing more or less the Defence -- yes, I

15 do understand that in May of this year that you met with Mr. Lukic and

16 that you reviewed your statement with him in May of this year. It was in

17 The Hague.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In May this year in The Hague?

19 What do you mean in May this year in The Hague? Well, this is the first

20 time that I'm in The Hague since last year, August -- November. I was

21 not in The Hague in May.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We received a --

23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: A proofing note.

25 MR. LUKIC: It says date 8th of December, only down there it was

Page 29732

1 left 6, 7th, and 8th May. It should be December. Now I noticed this

2 mistake as well. But date is 8th of December when I sent this.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's just -- yes, it's causing quite a

4 bit of confusion.

5 But you are reported as having reviewed your statement over the

6 last week, the 6th, the 7th, and the 8th of December, to have gone

7 through your statement, and you're telling us that the document to

8 which --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's possible that -- it's

10 possible that I went through all of those statements without noticing

11 this and I signed it nevertheless. It's possible. I'm not saying it's

12 not possible. I'd like to be able to remember, but I just don't

13 remember. This is an interesting conversation, very interesting.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not seeking your comment on whether the

15 intercept is interesting or not. We'll -- we've heard your answers to my

16 questions.

17 Mr. Traldi.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask one question.

19 Do you have any reason why, when you were asked whether this

20 statement is truthful, you didn't say: No, I can't confirm this because

21 I didn't read everything in it? Why did you say on the contrary, that

22 you confirm it, it's truthful?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember that. I cannot

24 say something is truthful if I just don't remember it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You did this morning, Mr. Kupresanin. Let's leave

Page 29733

1 it to that for the time being.

2 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31773, paragraph 31.

4 Q. And, sir, as it comes up, this will be your signed statement in

5 the Karadzic case, given to the Karadzic Defence. I imagine you recall

6 that you also, during your testimony in the Karadzic case, attested that

7 your Karadzic Defence statement was truthful and accurate. Do you recall

8 attesting to that?

9 A. Yes, I said that it was truthful and accurate, the statement that

10 I gave in relation to the Defence of Radovan Karadzic, it's true. And

11 everything that I have provided is the truth.

12 Q. Now, in paragraph 31 of that statement which we have in the

13 English and we're still pulling up the B/C/S -- and, I apologise, I

14 didn't have the B/C/S page number at my finger-tips. And I thank the

15 Court Officer.

16 We see here the same language that you'd been shown an

17 intercepted -- or a telephone conversation between Dr. Karadzic and

18 yourself about the Cutileiro Plan. Now, today you said you couldn't

19 remember if you'd ever talked to Dr. Karadzic about the Cutileiro Plan.

20 You've sworn to two Trial Chambers at this Tribunal in the last 13 months

21 and in two signed statements in the same period of time that not only had

22 you spoken to Dr. Karadzic about the Cutileiro Plan but that you'd

23 recently reviewed the conversation in which you did so; right?

24 A. I repeat, I don't remember. You're trying to convince me that I

25 should remember, but I don't need to remember. I stand by what I signed

Page 29734

1 on behalf of Radovan Karadzic. I don't know if this was shown to me in

2 the Karadzic case. Since this is an interesting conversation, I remember

3 it, I will remember it now. I can remember, I cannot remember. Why

4 shouldn't I remember? Why is this a problem?

5 Q. That's an interesting set of questions, sir. Do you remember it

6 now or not?

7 A. I don't. I'm surprised that I signed it in the Karadzic case. I

8 don't remember it. I'm sure I would remember this. I know all the parts

9 of Radovan's defence. It was a long time ago. I remember that, but I

10 don't remember this document. The Lisbon Agreement was in favour of the

11 Serbs. Why would I be against that agreement?

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there.

13 Let's move on, Mr. Traldi.

14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, normally, as it's an associated

15 exhibit, I would suggest it get a D number. Under the current

16 circumstances, I'm not sure it satisfies the test as an associated

17 exhibit. I would nonetheless tender it. I'm in the Chamber's hands how

18 to address it.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a P number for

21 this document.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20628 receives Exhibit Number P7004,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P7004 is admitted into evidence.

25 MR. TRALDI: And could the Prosecution now have 65 ter 02345.

Page 29735

1 This will be a transcript of the 8th Session of the Republika Srpska

2 Assembly on the 25th of February, 1992, the next day.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, I have on my note here 65 ter 31773.

4 Are you doing anything about it?

5 MR. TRALDI: No. I would -- I will seek to agree with Mr. Lukic

6 that it's the same paragraph that appears in the statement, but I will

7 attempt to do that rather than tendering any portion of it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course it is a matter which draws more and

9 more the attention of the Chamber that, from what was just read a second

10 ago, that it's again literally the same language. We have seen this

11 before, and I think it's good that the Defence is aware that the

12 Chamber -- that it's not unnoticed. That statements taken in the

13 Karadzic case often sometimes with small corrections are literally the

14 same as the ones presented in the Mladic case.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 60 in the English and 75 in the

17 B/C/S.

18 Q. As it comes up, do you recall attending the 8th Session of the

19 Assembly of the Bosnian Serb People on the 25th of February.

20 A. Do I remember? It is possible that I was. It would be logical

21 that I was, but I can't remember this particular session. How shall I

22 remember? There were so many of them.

23 Q. Well, do you recall saying to the Assembly, as you say on this

24 page:

25 "Therefore, I am against any kind of joint institution with the

Page 29736

1 Muslims and Croats of BH. I personally consider them to be our natural

2 enemies. You already know what natural enemies are and that we can never

3 again live together. We can never again do anything together."

4 Do you recall saying that to the Bosnian Serb Assembly?

5 A. I don't remember. I would remember this. These words carry

6 certain weight.

7 As for natural enemies, we all know what natural enemies are.

8 For example, a dog and a cat are natural enemies, and they deal with each

9 other on the basis of instinct. And, as for human beings, we have common

10 sense, we have reason, that's how we function. Natural enemies are dogs

11 and cats. I don't remember that I ever said this.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd seek to mark for identification

13 this session as well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 02345 receives Exhibit P7005, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It is marked for identification and a further

17 selection will be given notice of by the Prosecution.

18 MR. TRALDI:

19 Q. Now, it was around this time, sir, in fact, it was in this same

20 Assembly session that you called on President Karadzic to come out to the

21 ARK Assembly and stop the ARK independence movement; right?

22 A. I did invite Radovan Karadzic to the ARK Assembly but not at that

23 Assembly session that you are talking about. I know that I phoned him to

24 invite him because of the situation that prevailed at the time.

25 Q. I'm not --

Page 29737

1 A. -- I mean in the ARK.

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. I wanted him to assist me, to help me --

4 Q. First, you needed him to help you because of his power and

5 influence; right?

6 A. Because his intention was for that to happen, and that was not my

7 intention. They didn't intend for that to happen, for a state to be

8 created in the ARK, and some of our opponents in the same political party

9 and in some other political parties wanted to have a state of Krajina

10 created in the territory of Krajina. And since I know that

11 Radovan Karadzic --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm stopping you again. Why not answer the

13 question? Was it because of the power and the influence that you asked

14 for his help, of course having --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: A simple answer to a relatively simple question.

17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Could we have 64 in the English and 82 in the B/C/S.

21 Q. And here we see you speaking again at this session. Turning to

22 page 65 in the English, you say:

23 "I think a Krajina state -- sorry, I said that a Krajina state is

24 not a realistic idea. It is fiction. To establish it would be a crime

25 against and the destruction of the Serbian people."

Page 29738

1 And then you explain that you can't bear the entire burden of the

2 ARK Assembly on your own shoulders.

3 And at the bottom of the page in the English, turning to the top

4 of page 83 in the B/C/S, you say:

5 "I therefore urge that the president of the party and the

6 president of the Assembly come to Banja Luka to the Assembly and I am

7 sure that nothing bad will happen."

8 So you did, aside from your phone conversation, call on

9 President Karadzic to come to Banja Luka to the ARK Assembly at this

10 Assembly session; right?

11 A. It is true that I invited him to that session. I know that I

12 spoke to him on the phone. I don't know whether I did it verbally, but

13 it doesn't really matter. The most important thing was that he had been

14 invited and that he had arrived and that, as a result of that, what

15 happened, happened. The outcome of that Assembly session was

16 unexpected --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, the most important thing is that you

18 tell us the truth. I read to you one of your previous answers:

19 "I did invite Radovan Karadzic to the ARK Assembly but not at

20 that Assembly session that you are talking about."

21 You are recorded to have invited him at that Assembly session,

22 and you admitted that you may have done so. Therefore, the answer that

23 you did not do that at that Assembly session is just not the truth. You

24 may have forgotten about it, then you could have told us; but a --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have forgotten. I don't

Page 29739

1 remember that. I remember the telephone conversation, though --

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I then remind you that the proper answer would

3 have been: I remember that I invited him by telephone; however, I do not

4 remember whether I also invited him at the session, instead of saying: I

5 did not do it at the session.

6 You should be more accurate and more precise with your answer.

7 Witness -- witness --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said that a little while

9 ago.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier said something different, and I'm not

11 used to be interrupted by a witness.

12 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. You say after that in this transcript:

15 "I know that Karadzic as the president of the SDS is truly the

16 leading figure among the Serbian people and five of his sentences are

17 enough to change the entire course of the session, but I am now powerless

18 with those people."

19 What you're saying is that Karadzic, because of his power, could

20 prevent the ARK from seceding from the RS, but you yourself could not;

21 right?

22 A. Not from Republika Srpska, but from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Not from

23 Republika Srpska, no. They wanted the ARK to stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24 that's why I invited Radovan.

25 Again, we meet the same stumbling block, make a distinction

Page 29740

1 between the regional Krajina and the Krajina within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 I invited Radovan to come and to prevent the creation of the state of

3 Krajina within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 We are all again speaking at cross-purposes. That's that. What

5 region of Krajina? People wanted a state of Krajina within

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They wanted a state within a state.

7 Q. Now, President Karadzic did come to the next session of the ARK

8 Assembly after this; right?

9 A. He did.

10 MR. TRALDI: And could we have 65 ter 06884.

11 Q. This is an extract from the minutes of the 14th Session of the

12 ARK Assembly on the 29th of February, 1992.

13 Now, in the days between the 25th and the 29th of February, the

14 constitution had been promulgated; right?

15 A. What constitution? Whose constitution? Please, whose

16 constitution? The constitution of Republika Srpska, very well.

17 Q. Now, turning to page 2 in the English --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, your question was about the

19 constitution. The witness asked: What constitution --

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. Sir --

22 JUDGE ORIE: And I think assuming that you intended to refer to

23 the constitution of the Republika Srpska or the Serbian Republic of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that he answered that question. Was that what

25 you referred to?

Page 29741

1 MR. TRALDI: It was.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. Turning to page 2 in the English, which we now have, towards the

5 bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S. We see Radovan Karadzic presented the

6 current political and security situation at the Assembly. We see he

7 gives an explanation and he says, among other things:

8 "If BH changes its status in Yugoslavia, we will change our

9 status too. If BH leaves Yugoslavia, we will leave it too, but not as

10 part of their BH but as our BH, a Serbian one ..."

11 And below that, we see that his report on the political and

12 security situation was accepted in full by the ARK Assembly. And below

13 point 2, turning to the next page in the B/C/S --

14 MR. LUKIC: What you quoted previously was also on page 2 in

15 B/C/S.

16 MR. TRALDI: I apologise. And I thank Mr. Lukic.

17 Q. In the second paragraph below point 2 that we see here, we see

18 that he stresses that:

19 " ... it would be a crime against the Krajina if it were

20 declared a Republic."

21 That he refers to those as "childish ideas," and then we see

22 "conclusions."

23 MR. TRALDI: We can turn to page 3 in the English.

24 Q. After a debate, the deputies in the Assembly of the ARK accepted

25 the Constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People of BH in full.

Page 29742

1 The status of the Autonomous Region of Krajina would be incorporated into

2 the Constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People of BH and strict

3 control of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina would be

4 established. 148 deputies voted for these conclusions - that's at the

5 bottom of the page in the B/C/S - and none voted against.

6 So President Karadzic accepted your invitation. When he came to

7 the ARK, the ARK Assembly unanimously adopted his position and remained

8 part of the Serbian Republic of BH; right?

9 A. I don't know that a state or a republican law was ever adopted at

10 an Assembly session. I don't know that that was foreseen by the

11 constitution. Why would the constitution of Republika Srpska be

12 discussed at the Parliament of the autonomous region if we have the

13 Parliament of Republika Srpska? Only the Assembly of Republika Srpska

14 could adopt such constitution. Everything else is absurd. I'm sure that

15 Radovan did participate in the debate, but not regarding the topic of the

16 state constitution.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your position that this is not an accurate

18 reflection of what happened at that session?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The constitution was not discussed

20 at that session. I know that. We discussed issues and I know what those

21 were. None of them was the constitution. The most important issue was

22 to prevent the setting up of the state of Krajina of north-Western

23 Bosnia.

24 JUDGE ORIE: My question was a different one. Does this not

25 reflect the discussion at they took place at the Assembly?

Page 29743

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that this record is

2 accurate.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any fact to your knowledge which would support that

4 opinion?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I remember, and I have just

6 shared with you, I don't see a stamp, I don't see my signature, nothing.

7 I would not be in a position to sign a document adopting the republican

8 constitution. It would have been pointless to discuss that at the

9 regional Assembly. The only place, the only proper place where to

10 discuss that and to adopt that would be the republican Assembly or

11 Parliament.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's logic. I'm asking about facts. Anything

13 else?

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the next page in B/C/S.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Sir, in the interests of time, I see it's almost 2.15, I'm not

18 going to pull up the examples but I'm going to put to you that this is a

19 document that you've also said in two signed statements that you've

20 attested to in the last 13 months that you've been shown this document

21 and that you've made comments on, and on neither of those occasions have

22 you said in your statements which were -- which you attested were

23 truthful, on neither of those occasions have you said: These minutes are

24 not an accurate reflection of what happened at that Assembly.

25 So I'd put to you that what you're saying now is, in fact, not

Page 29744

1 the truth. Do you have any comment on that?

2 A. I can see my name here but there is no signature, there is no

3 stamp. How come that I did not sign this document? Anybody could have

4 been drafted it. Anybody could have submitted it to the Tribunal.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, this document was shown to you by

6 the Mladic Defence, by the Karadzic Defence. You were asked to comment

7 on it. You did. You didn't say: It's not what it claims to be. You

8 just gave other comments.

9 You have not told us that this does not reflect what was

10 discussed during that meeting. Why didn't you do that? Why is it that

11 now in court suddenly not in the Karadzic case but in this case you

12 suddenly say: Well, whatever comment I gave, it's not accurately

13 reflecting what had happened and therefore I refrain from commenting on

14 it because it's not a truthful document. Why didn't you say that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever documents I signed and

16 stamped, I recognise as documents. This, in my view, is not a document.

17 This was just filed with us.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Why didn't you then say that when interviewed by the

19 Defence teams of Mr. Karadzic and of Mr. Mladic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no stamp. How can I

21 proffer any comments? I suppose that at that time I failed to not see

22 the stamp.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it to that. It is -- the last part of the

24 answer is of some relevance to the question put to the witness.

25 Mr. Traldi, it's time for -- to adjourn.

Page 29745

1 MR. TRALDI: Before we do and so I don't forget, I'd just tender

2 the document as in a previous similar instance I'd suggest a P number.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 And, Madam Registrar, a P number to be assigned to this document

5 would be ...

6 THE REGISTRAR: P7006, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P7006 is admitted into evidence -- is marked for

8 identification. I stand corrected.

9 Then we'll --

10 MR. TRALDI: It's a very brief document which I'd ask to have

11 admitted so if in case the Chamber is asking for follow-up from me, I

12 would just inquire as to the reason for marking it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree it's a three-page document only so,

14 therefore, a further selection would not make that much sense. I stand

15 corrected again.

16 P7006 is now finally admitted into evidence.

17 Mr. Kupresanin, we'll adjourn for the day. We'll continue

18 tomorrow morning at 9.30 -- no, no, we'll continue on Monday, 9.30 in the

19 morning, in this same courtroom, I. I would like to instruct you that

20 you should not speak with anyone about your testimony or to communicate

21 in any other way with whomever it may be about your testimony, whether

22 that is testimony given today or whether that is testimony still to be

23 given on Monday.

24 If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 29746

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I heard the word "svedok," which means

4 that Mr. Mladic was talking about a witness or this witness or whatever.

5 He should not speak aloud, make that clear to him, because it will have

6 similar consequences as before when he continues to do so.

7 We'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume Monday, the 15th of

8 December, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

11 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.