Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29747

 1                           Monday, 15 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Before we ask the witness to be escorted into the courtroom, I

11     would like to briefly move into private session for two minutes only.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 29748

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I also do understand that the Prosecution would like

 8     to raise a matter in relation to the revised translation of P6857 -- 6 --

 9     yes, 685 -- 57.

10             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  And this is an intercept that was

11     shown to Witness Kralj on 28 October 2014.  The revised English

12     translation has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 050471631ET.  The

13     Prosecution has spoken with the Defence and they agree to the revision.

14     We would request that the revised revision replace the one currently

15     there e-court.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.  The Registrar is instructed

17     to replace the existing translation for P6857 by a new translation

18     ID 050471631ET.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Zupljanin.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise, Mr. Kupresanin.  Before we continue,

23     I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration

24     you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the

25     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 29749

 1             Mr. Traldi, if you're ready you may continue your

 2     cross-examination.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           WITNESS:  VOJO KUPRESANIN [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness testified through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   Good morning, good morning.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 31775.

10        Q.   And, sir, I want to focus now on your evidence about the

11     relationship between the ARK and the central authorities in Pale.

12             Now this is an extract from the minutes of the 10th Session of

13     the Assembly of the ARK at the assembly hall of the Banja Luka cultural

14     centre at 1000 hours on 14 December 1991, and we see this session was

15     chaired by yourself.

16             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 5 in the English and page 3 in

17     the B/C/S.

18        Q.   We read at the top of the page in English and middle of the page

19     in the B/C/S:

20             "The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina supports the

21     integration of all Serbian territories and our representatives have been

22     legally elected: Radovan Karadzic, Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik,

23     and Vojo Kupresanin."

24             That correctly reflects the ARK Assembly's position as of

25     December 1991; right?

Page 29750

 1        A.   All the regions could be established in the territory of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina under the constitution.  This is under article 4 of

 3     the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This was not my suggestion.  It

 4     was a trend which was --

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.  I haven't asked about the

 6     constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As of December 1991, the Assembly of

 7     the ARK did, in fact, support the integration of all Serbian territories

 8     and considered its representatives to include Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic,

 9     Mr. Krajisnik, and yourself; correct?

10        A.   Not correct.

11        Q.   How do you explain that appears in the minutes of this session

12     that you presided over?

13        A.   We supported the process, and it was not up to them.

14        Q.   I'm not sure I understand your answer.  As of -- as of the 14th

15     of December, 1991, it's clear that the ARK Assembly supported the

16     integration of Serb territories, yes or no?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And you also deny that, despite it being reflected in the

19     minutes, the ARK Assembly considers its legal representatives to include

20     Karadzic, Koljevic and Krajisnik?

21        A.   Not correct.  They were not legally elected representatives of

22     the Assembly of Krajina or the region of Krajina in any way when it came

23     to ARK Krajina.  What did Karadzic have to do with the rest of us?

24        Q.   Well, we'll look at that in a second.

25             MR. TRALDI:  For the moment, I tender this document.

Page 29751

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 31775 receives exhibit number

 3     P7007, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             Mr. Traldi, could the witness explain why the literal reading of

 6     these minutes, why they do not reflect what the position was?  Because

 7     Mr. Traldi just read out what is written here.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said what I thought about

 9     that.  He put a specific question, I provided a specific

10     question [as interpreted].  At least I think I did.  It's his problem if

11     he is not happy with the answer.  I -- in this document, I don't find any

12     other answer to that question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Traldi read to you what the minutes say

14     and then asked you whether it's correct or not.  Your answer is it's not

15     correct.  Then my question is --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then my question is why do then the minutes reflect

18     a position you say is not correct?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] It says "excerpt."

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document in front of me --

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] It says an excerpt from the minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's an excerpt, yes.

25             You say it's -- the excerpt is wrong.

Page 29752

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell that this is -- these

 2     are original minutes.  There's no signature.  There's no stamp.  What is

 3     this?  Documents without any paper trail?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm listening.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are saying this excerpt, where

 7     apparently have you some doubts where it comes, this excerpt does in the

 8     reflect the position of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

 9     Is that well understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have doubts about this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then one follow-up question.

12             These excerpt -- this excerpt says that Radovan Karadzic,

13     Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Vojo Kupresanin are legally

14     elected.  Were you, the four of you, legally elected and elected to what

15     exactly?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was legally elected as a deputy

17     in the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I was legally elected as a

18     member in the Assembly of Republika Srpska.  I was legally elected as the

19     president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region.  All those things

20     were legal.  At that time Radovan Karadzic was the president of Serbian

21     Democratic Party, legally elected.  Radovan Karadzic and the others did

22     not instruct us to make decisions at the Assembly of the Autonomous

23     Region.  We were not duty-bound by their positions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P2720.

Page 29753

 1        Q.   Now, this is a intercepted conversation between yourself and

 2     General Kukanjac, then the head of the 2nd Military District, in

 3     April 1992.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2 in the English and the top of page

 5     3 in the B/C/S, we read in the middle of the page.

 6        Q.   You say:

 7             "Well, we must and now we are waiting for Karadzic to return from

 8     Europe and tell us what we are to do next.  I personally think, General,

 9     that I won't do anything until he returns, when he comes whatever he

10     tells us we will do.  He is now for us the Supreme Commander and we have

11     no other commander.  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on the one side,

12     and the Serb people in the situation they are in, on the other.  We have

13     our commander, it is that man, we must obey him, you understand us, we

14     understand you."

15             Now, that man you are saying is your commander who you must obey

16     is President Karadzic; right?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I'm --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would ask my colleague to give the

20     time-frame of this document to the witness so he understands about which

21     time --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  April 1992.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I did.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but it depends which month, heavily.  For --

25             MR. TRALDI:  I said the month of April, Mr. Lukic.

Page 29754

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, sorry.  I didn't hear it.  Sorry.  I apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's accepted.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   I'll repeat my question, sir.  The man you are saying is your

 6     Supreme Commander who you must obey is President Radovan Karadzic; right?

 7        A.   He was not the Supreme Commander.  I may have put it that way.

 8     He was only the president of the party, so he was not in a position to be

 9     the Supreme Commander.  However, we in the Serbian people who found

10     ourselves in such a position when the Yugoslav People's Army was

11     leaving --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  When you are

13     referring to the Supreme Commander, were you referring to

14     Radovan Karadzic?  That's the question.  Or did you have anyone else on

15     your mind?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was head.  He was not supreme

17     commander.  He was head.  That's how I would describe him.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I didn't ask you to describe his position.

19     I did ask you whether in this portion of this intercepted conversation,

20     whether you referred to Mr. Karadzic, did you or did you not?  Whatever

21     his position was.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   You say in paragraph 34 of your statement, sir, that this

Page 29755

 1     intercept shows you did not have contact with Karadzic and Pale.  I'd put

 2     to you that, in fact, what it shows is you're simply saying that he's in

 3     Europe and you're just waiting for him to come back and give you your

 4     marching orders; right?

 5        A.   I really can't remember where he was.  Maybe he was in Europe.

 6     He was probably there.  I don't know how I found out where he was.  It

 7     was only logical for us to expect him to voice his opinion, his position,

 8     because that's what Kukanjac had asked from us.  I don't know what else I

 9     could tell you.  Why I would have I know where the president of the party

10     was at the time.  I don't know where he was.  Should I have known?

11        Q.   Sir, I didn't ask you where he was at the time.  What I put to

12     you, and I'll do it very clearly, is that your description of this

13     intercept in your statement is incorrect and what you are actually saying

14     is when he comes back, he will give you your marching orders and you must

15     obey them.  That's what we see you saying; right?

16        A.   He never issued any orders to us.  Nor were we duty-bound to

17     carry out his orders.  What I said, I said it --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, are you not answering the questions,

19     unfortunately.  You again and again give your comments on what was said,

20     whereas what you are asked is to confirm what you said and what that

21     actually means; that is, wait until he's back and then we'll receive his

22     orders.  Is that the gist of what you said here, or is there anything

23     else?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Very well.  Let it be that

25     way.

Page 29756

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I'm done with this document now, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And it is -- I just have to check.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's in evidence already.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now, sir, one leader in the ARK who had close relations with Pale

 8     was Mr. Brdjanin, the Crisis Staff president; right?

 9        A.   I don't think that he had close relations with Pale.  Actually,

10     he was more in conflict with Pale than in close relations.  That's my

11     personal opinion.  Yes, yes, exactly.  He very often clashed with Pale.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we have 65 ter 31770.

13        Q.   That's your OTP interview.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm looking for page 68 in the English and the

15     bottom of page 100 in the B/C/S.  I think we still have page 1 in the

16     English.  And we're looking for page 68.

17        Q.   So you're asked here:

18             "Are you aware of Radoslav Brdjanin visiting areas outside

19     Banja Luka during 1992?"

20             You say:

21             "No."

22             And you're asked:

23             "He did not visit or are you not aware of his visits?"

24             And you respond:

25             "I don't know anything, whether he went or didn't go.  We didn't

Page 29757

 1     socialise."

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And we'll turn to the next page in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   "He had his own world.  His people were the top, on the top."

 4             When you said that, you were referring to the people at the top

 5     of the structures of political authority in the Republika Srpska; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that was that.  I don't know that he was very close with the

 7     top of the tops at Pale.  But Brdjanin was specific in the sense that

 8     whenever he had an occasion to talk to the top echelons, he did and that

 9     concerned co-operation between Pale and Banja Luka.

10             As a matter of fact, you're saying that he was a yes man or that

11     his only agenda was to forward his career.  Yes, you may say that.

12        Q.   So can I take it you confirm what you said in this portion of

13     your OTP interview?

14        A.   I'm also aware of the other side and that was that he very often

15     clashed with Pale.  I -- you had an intercept of a conversation between

16     Brdjanin, Karadzic, and myself, and Karadzic -- Brdjanin's name is always

17     mentioned as somebody who was disruptive.

18        Q.   Well, let's look at one example of an intercept between Karadzic

19     and Brdjanin.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P2636.  2636.

21        Q.   Now --

22             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm looking for page 2 in both languages.  This

23     is an intercepted conversation between them in July 1991.  And we can see

24     in both languages an underlined sentence that says:

25             "We have done the one today."

Page 29758

 1             Looking just below that, we see Mr. Karadzic says:

 2             "Nothing nothing have done, if you have brought decision on

 3     referendum, it would have been terrible."

 4             And Mr. Brdjanin responses:

 5             "We have not, have not, we obeyed."

 6             What we see here is he is confirming that he obeyed an order he'd

 7     received from Mr. Karadzic and the authorities in Pale; right?

 8        A.   Please don't put me in situations where I can say only yes or no.

 9     Could I be allowed to say something more about this referendum, just a

10     few sentences?  I need to explain.

11        Q.   First I'd ask that you answer my question, sir.  What we see here

12     is Mr. Brdjanin confirming that he obeyed an order he received from

13     Mr. Karadzic and the authorities in Pale; right?

14        A.   First of all, did he not obey it.  That's why Radovan called him

15     and only then did he obey.  So he did not obey.  He caused confusion and

16     then he obeyed and made a mistake.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 08469.  And that's been marked

18     for identification as P6997, pending a selection of material.  And I'm

19     looking for page 53 in the English and middle of page 46 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   Sir, this is the session of the SDS on the 12th of July, 1991 at

21     which you were elected to the Main Board.  And here we see a portion of

22     Mr. Brdjanin's remarks.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And we're waiting for the B/C/S page.

24        Q.   And we see below the note of applause, that he says:

25             "I personally think that regions strengthen the government in

Page 29759

 1     Sarajevo.  If anyone thinks different, they who interpret it differently

 2     surely are trying to con our greatest leadership."

 3             "I am a man who abides by two principles:  I obey and respect

 4     those who are above me, all those who are under my command must obey me."

 5             So what we see here, again, is Mr. Brdjanin confirming that he

 6     believes he has the obligation to obey and respect those above him, the

 7     leadership of the SDS; right?

 8        A.   It turns how that was his rule.  Those were above him, he obeyed

 9     them, and he demanded to be obeyed from those below him.  That was his

10     life philosophy.  That's how things were.

11        Q.   Separate from his relationship with the ARK,

12     President Karadzic --

13             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document, Your Honours.

14        Q.   -- also had control through the political chain of command of the

15     presidents of municipal governments; right?

16        A.   Political control?  Probably he did have an impact on the conduct

17     and all the political relations in the Serbian Democratic Party in

18     municipalities.  It was only logical that it followed the work of the

19     Serbian Democratic Party in municipalities.  Municipalities as

20     municipalities were in certain a way states in a state.  I was the

21     president of Krajina, and I did not have any control over any

22     municipality.  The statute of the region did not present any particular

23     positions with regard to the presidents of the municipalities.

24        Q.   Sir, you've again gone beyond the question I asked to your

25     relationship with municipalities.  What I'm asking you to confirm, and I

Page 29760

 1     believe you had, is President Karadzic having control of the presidents

 2     of municipal governments.  And we'll get to the relationship between the

 3     ARK and the municipalities in a moment.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Traldi, you mean political control.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Political control, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   So I do want to look at one policy example.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31771.

11        Q.   This will be a transcript of an intercepted conversations between

12     Radovan Karadzic and Radislav Vukic dated the 27th of September, 1991.

13             As it comes up, in paragraph 22 of your statement you suggest

14     that in November 1991 you insisted in the ARK Assembly that

15     representatives of the SDA, HDZ, and SDP who were in managerial positions

16     should be replaced and Dr. Karadzic opposed that.

17             Now Mr. Vukic, who he's speaking with here, is one of the other

18     political leaders in the ARK; right?

19        A.   He was no political leader of the ARK.  He was simply a municipal

20     president of the SDS in Banja Luka.  Deputies in the assembly wielded

21     more influence than Vukic.  He could not influence our work.  And when I

22     say that, I mean the decisions of the district assembly or similar

23     things.  Vukic could not exert any influence over our work.  I don't know

24     whether he tried, but he certainly did not have any influence.

25        Q.   Well, turning to page 2 in the English and the bottom of page 2

Page 29761

 1     in the B/C/S, Dr. Karadzic asks:

 2             "In whose hands is Radio Banja Luka?"

 3             And Vukic responds:

 4             "I beg your pardon?"

 5             Karadzic asks again:

 6             "In whose hands is Radio Banja Luka?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to the next page in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Vukic responds:

 9             "A Muslim is a director."

10             Karadzic responds:

11             "What the fuck?"

12             And Vukic says:

13             "Shall I replace him straight away, let him go to fucking hell?

14             And Karadzic says:

15             "Come on, replace him immediately.  Appoint a man of yours.

16     These are war times.  Appoint -- if he is not listening to you, appoint a

17     man of yours."

18             So what we see here is that Dr. Karadzic's position, in fact, was

19     that the Muslim director of Radio Banja Luka should be replaced

20     immediately; right?

21        A.   First of all, a Muslim was not a director of Radio Banja Luka.

22     It was Mrs. Bozic.  However, the IT centre head of Banja Luka RTV was

23     Mr. Smajic.  Now, what his exact position in the IT centre in Banja Luka

24     is something I don't remember.  I do remember him well.  He was not

25     removed until Rajko Vasic came along who was the head of the radio and

Page 29762

 1     television company.  So it wasn't a Muslim who was the director of

 2     Radio Banja Luka.  It was Mrs. Bozic.  It was a mistake.  I may have had

 3     Smajic in mind at the IT centre.

 4             As for this conversation, I don't know.  Well, he did ask for

 5     assistance and Radovan supported him.  That is obvious.  Although we, in

 6     the Krajina, did not think along those lines.  I know about Smajic no one

 7     removed him and he simply left Banja Luka perhaps a year after these

 8     events.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 31771.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31771 receives exhibit number P7008,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             Witness, by giving your own recollection of the events, you are

15     moving away from what you were asked.  You were asked whether Karadzic

16     here - and that seems to be the language he uses - whether Karadzic was

17     instructing or ordering to replace a person whose name is not even

18     mentioned but who was a Muslim and to be replaced immediately.

19             Now whether that happened and who it was is a different matter,

20     but you again and again are moving away from what Mr. Traldi is asking

21     you.  Mr. Traldi is asking you whether hearing this, seeing this, whether

22     this is what it looks like, that it's such an instruction was given.

23     Whether it was followed up is a different matter.  Who it was is also

24     another question.  But the question by Mr. Traldi simply was:  Is

25     Mr. Karadzic here giving a clear instruction that a Muslim, he was told

Page 29763

 1     was the director, should be replaced.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  A simple yes in the beginning would have

 4     saved a lot of time.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just say something.  According to this

 7     intercept here, sir, Ms. Bozic who you say was -- in whose hands you say

 8     the radio was, is mentioned just below there as the main editor, not the

 9     person in whose hands the TV station was.  Do you have any comment on

10     that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I'm not sure what she was.

12     I just know that she was the main person on the radio.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So what you said earlier, you are not sure of.

14     You are just guessing when you said she was the person in whose hands the

15     radio was?  Her position is being explained here in this intercept.  She

16     is the main editor.  I see you pull your lips.  You're not answering --

17     [Microphone not activated].

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31768.

19        Q.   As it comes up, sir, a moment ago you said we in the Krajina did

20     not think along those lines.  In fact, the ARK authorities, including the

21     Crisis Staff, issued decisions on the dismissal of non-Serbs from a

22     number of positions in 1992; right?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The 65 ter you called has not been recorded.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, 31768 and I see we do have it on the screen.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 29764

 1             MR. TRALDI:  So, sir, before we get to the document, I'll repeat

 2     my question.  The ARK authorities, including the ARK Crisis Staff, issued

 3     decisions on the dismissal of non-Serbs from a number of positions in

 4     1992; right.

 5        A.   Please do not make this link between us and the Crisis Staff.  We

 6     did not establish it.  The ARK Crisis Staff was probably an operations

 7     body of the government of RS.  We did not create it.  We did not

 8     influence its conclusions or their implementation.

 9        Q.   Sir --

10        A.   The Crisis Staff of the ARK did not have --

11        Q.   You were a member of that Crisis Staff; right?

12        A.   Yes, I was.

13        Q.   And, yes or no, it did issue decisions on the removal of

14     non-Serbs from particular positions in 1992.

15        A.   It was one of the conclusions of the Crisis Staff, to have people

16     in key positions in publicly owned enterprises who were not members of

17     the SDS -  I'll say it again, who were not members of the SDS - should be

18     replaced by members of the SDS.  It was a rule across all of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the political arena.  The SDS removed all public

20     enterprise directors who were not members of the SDS.  It was a rule, and

21     it was accepted.  Now why would that be a sin?  Even before that, people

22     were being removed, before this decision of the Crisis Staff.

23        Q.   Do you -- sir --

24        A.   The Crisis Staff could not --

25        Q.   Do you recall who made that rule?

Page 29765

 1        A.   Who made that rule?  Well, there were elections before that.  At

 2     the time there was still the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3     After the elections we gained power.

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   And it a rule that the party in power has influence over key

 6     positions and it is also regulated by law.

 7        Q.   Well, let's look at this document.  This is a decision by the

 8     Serb municipality of Doboj.  It's being sent to the Ministry of Justice

 9     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And it's dated the 24th

10     June 1992.

11             Directing your attention to the bottom of the page, we can see

12     that it reflects a proposal by yourself as president of the ARK, and

13     is -- is also signed by Municipal President, Drago Ljubican.  What we see

14     in this document is a proposal that three men be replaced as public

15     prosecutors in Doboj and three other men be appointed.  And at point 4 we

16     read:

17             "Also, pursuant to Articles 1 and 2 of the decision by the Crisis

18     Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, which stipulate that every

19     high-level post within state institutions may be filled solely by staff

20     of Serbian ethnicity alone ..."

21             And then it shows who is being proposed to be removed.

22             So this is an implementation of the ARK Crisis Staff decision on

23     dismissing non-Serbs from high positions; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the three names of the men to be dismissed:  Midhat

Page 29766

 1     Demirovic, son of Abdurahman; and Senad Serement, son of Ibrahim.  Those

 2     are Muslims; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  But how come my signature is on this document when the

 4     ARK Assembly never engaged in removing or appointing any personnel?  How

 5     could I have ordered this when it was within the remit of the Crisis

 6     Staff?  What would the Autonomous District have to do with this?  I never

 7     issued such decisions and I did not influence any personnel issues.  I

 8     did not even appoint any directors, let alone judges or prosecutors.  How

 9     come my name appears on this document?  It is unclear to me.

10        Q.   I -- sir --

11        A.   The Crisis Staff did that.

12        Q.   And I just have one more question on the document.  Anto Pekez,

13     son of Stipo, that's a Croat name; right?

14        A.   Yes probably.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31768.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on that.

17             Witness, do you say this is not my signature or it -- it's not

18     fully understood why it is there?  What's your position?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am trying to say that the removal

20     of personnel in the judiciary --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Witness, Witness, would you please answer my

22     question.  My question is not whether it was your competence or not.

23     That may be a follow-up question.  My question is where you say what does

24     my signature do on this document, are you saying it's not your signature

25     or do you say, Well, there must be -- I still do not understand why it is

Page 29767

 1     there.  Which of the two?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to say that this is a

 3     precedent of sorts.  I've never engaged in such matters.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question was not whether you engaged in such

 5     matters before but whether you recognise this to be your signature.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you have explained that it's odd that it is

 8     there, but at the same time you acknowledge for a fact that it is your

 9     signature.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never dealt with this.  That is

11     why I am doubtful about it all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I maintain my request to tender the document,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 31768 receives exhibit number

19     P7009, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7009 is admitted.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   And, sir, the Chamber has received evidence that the decision on

23     dismissals was also implemented in Prijedor municipality.  That's true,

24     isn't it?  The municipalities would implement decisions by the ARK Crisis

25     Staff, such as this decision on dismissing non-Serbs?

Page 29768

 1        A.   First of all, Prijedor municipality was not in the district.  As

 2     of the municipalities -- in terms of municipalities who joined the

 3     district, Prijedor was not one of them.  So the Crisis Staff could not

 4     can exert any influence over personnel policy in the municipality of

 5     Prijedor, I wonder.

 6        Q.   Well, let's look at the documents, then.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P6948.

 8        Q.   At page 1 here, we see here the ARK Crisis Staff decision that

 9     was referred to in the Doboj document we just saw.  We see it's dated the

10     22nd of June 1992.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2, in both languages -- sorry, 3 in

12     the B/C/S.

13        Q.   We see a version of this document bearing the handwritten note

14     for immediate delivery to the president of the municipality Crisis Staff.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Now turning to page 3 in the English and I believe

16     it's page 5 in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   We see a signed, stamped document emanating from the Crisis Staff

18     of Prijedor municipality deciding that it should forward the decision of

19     the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina for implementation.

20     So, in fact, the Prijedor Crisis Staff implemented this decision; right?

21        A.   I don't think so.  No decision of the Autonomous Region Crisis

22     Staff was binding on any municipality.  It was only a suggestions.  Had

23     it been binding, it would have carried sanctions with it.  Not one were

24     binding.  They were suggestions.  Had Prijedor refused to implement this

25     instruction by the Crisis Staff, nothing would have happened.  That is

Page 29769

 1     why I think you're wrong.

 2        Q.   Well, first I'd put to you --

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could go back to page 1, both languages.

 4        Q.   I want to put to you two points about this.  First, it's called a

 5     decision, not a suggestion; correct?  Yes or no.

 6        A.   Well, yes, perhaps it was a conclusion of the Crisis Staff.  I

 7     don't know whether it was a proposal or a decision.  Crisis Staff had

 8     conclusions and they wanted them implemented.  This may have been

 9     accompanied by a conclusion.  Now as for Prijedor, I doubt they

10     implemented it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you said it was just a suggestion.

12     Mr. Traldi asks you whether this document says it's a suggestion or a

13     decision.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes or no.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read the document.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, you only need to read one word, top centre of the page.  Can

18     you read out that word for us?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the witness is allowed to read --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read it.  I read it.  It says

21     decision.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Traldi, if the witness wants to read it, it may be denied

24     half way that it's not really a decision.  Or whatever comes, he's

25     entitled to do that and you should not tell him that he only should look

Page 29770

 1     at one word.  Whether it finally would support any other conclusion is a

 2     different matter, but if the witness says I haven't read it, then you

 3     should not instruct him just to read one word where you put the whole of

 4     the document to him.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, discussing the whole of document, do you agree with me that

 8     point 4 also refers to this as a decision which shall enter into force?

 9        A.   A Crisis Staff decision cannot be binding on anyone or be into

10     force.  How could it be when the Crisis Staff has no power of sanction?

11     It was an operations RS government organ for crisis situations.  This was

12     a crisis situation.  However, it was not binding on the leadership of

13     Prijedor municipality to implement it.  The Crisis Staff could not do

14     that.  So it was a non-binding decision.

15        Q.   I take it we all agree this is referred to as a decision that

16     shall enter into force.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31770, page 33 in the English

18     and 46 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   This will be another part of your OTP interview.  You were asked

20     here did Brdjanin give orders to presidents of municipalities about what

21     he wanted carried out, and you responded:

22             "Well, you see, I asked myself that question.  Certain things

23     happened in Krajina.  I'm interested to what extent was the ARK Crisis

24     Staff connected to the peripheral."

25             You were asked if you mean municipal Crisis Staffs, and you say:

Page 29771

 1             "Yes, yes.  That is a great mystery for me."

 2             How is it that when, in 2001, when your recollection was fresher,

 3     as you testified on Thursday, you claimed it was a mystery to you to what

 4     extent the ARK Crisis Staff was connected to the municipal Crisis Staffs,

 5     and today you claim that you are quite sure of its relationship with the

 6     municipal Crisis Staffs and you are minimizing that relationship?

 7        A.   I'm not minimizing anything.  I know what the Crisis Staff was

 8     and what its role was.  I know what their possibilities were.  I know to

 9     what extent their proposals could be implemented.  Their powers were

10     limited under the law.

11             There's something that confuses me in what you said.  We did have

12     an ARK Crisis Staff but not a Banja Luka Crisis Staff, so it is my

13     impression that the Banja Luka Crisis Staff moved up to the level of ARK

14     Crisis Staff.  First of all, no one from the Krajina sitting on that

15     staff was from the Krajina itself.  Everyone was from Banja Luka only.

16     Nobody from Drvar, Petrovac, or Srbac.  Everyone in the ARK Crisis Staff

17     was from Banja Luka.  They were residents of Banja Luka.  It is my

18     impression that sometimes the roles were reversed.

19        Q.   Sir, where were you from?

20        A.   I do hail from Srbac by I worked in Banja Luka; hence, I did not

21     represent Srbac municipality.  It had its own representative and he was

22     perhaps the only one who came from time to time.  The rest did not.

23        Q.   In fact --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat

25     his last sentence.  It was inaudible.

Page 29772

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   You're being asked to repeat your last sentence, sir.

 3        A.   Members of the ARK Crisis Staff were not people from the region.

 4     They were all from Banja Luka.  The Banja Luka Crisis Staff was never set

 5     up, and I wonder why it was not when the government instructed that

 6     Crisis Staff municipal staffs be established.  They did not say that a

 7     regional Crisis Staff had to be established.

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   So the Banja Luka Crisis Staff took over the role for the entire

10     region.

11        Q.   A very specific question:  Who was the Srbac representative you

12     had in mind a moment ago?

13        A.   Milos Milincic, president of the municipality.  He was a guest.

14        Q.   Now, he testified here a month ago and he testified that

15     presidents of the various municipalities were by their function members

16     of the ARK Crisis Staff.  That's, in fact, the truth; right?

17        A.   No.  Their first and last names of the people who comprised the

18     ARK Crisis Staff.  There were between 10 and 15.  It is clear who was

19     there but nobody was from the district.  Everyone was from Banja Luka.

20     The roles were turned.  Who ordered the establishment of the ARK Crisis

21     Staff, I have never received such a document from the government.

22        Q.   Sir, again you've gone well beyond my question.  Milorad Sajic

23     similarly testified last week that every Monday the presidents of and

24     representatives from various ARK municipalities would come to Banja Luka

25     every Monday and meet with the ARK Crisis Staff.  You're aware of that

Page 29773

 1     too; right?

 2        A.   No.  I occasionally attended the sessions of the Crisis Staff and

 3     I basically never saw some people from the Autonomous Region.  I don't

 4     remember seeing anyone.  The 10 or 15 people were members of the Crisis

 5     Staff of the region, including General Talic, but I never saw anyone from

 6     Drvar or Celinac, from any municipality of the regions at the sessions of

 7     the Crisis Staff.

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   Every municipality --

10        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin was from Celinac; right?

11        A.   Well, Mr. Brdjanin was in Banja Luka working for the Ministry of

12     Urban Planning.  Had nothing to do with Celinac.  They had their own

13     president of the municipality who came, Sveto Kovacevic.  They had their

14     own Crisis Staff.  Every municipality did.  But Banja Luka did not have

15     one.  Hence, it is confusing.  How come there were people from Banja Luka

16     in the ARK Crisis Staff, whereas where there was no Banja Luka

17     Crisis Staff, and yet the government ordered the establishment of a

18     Crisis Staff in the municipality.

19             So people from the city were in the ARK staff.  It was confusing

20     for me then when I provided the statement and it is still confusing.

21     There were things happening that were done in an underhanded way.

22        Q.   Sir, I see we're almost at the time for the break.  Before we get

23     there, I'd put to you that based on your own evidence you simply do not

24     know the extent of the relationship between the ARK Crisis Staff and the

25     municipal Crisis Staffs.  That's what's come out from your various

Page 29774

 1     answers; right?

 2        A.   I told you that the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff were not

 3     binding on the municipalities in the periphery or in the region because

 4     there were no sanctions.  They could and they didn't need to.  Some did,

 5     some did not.  So they were not binding.  That is my response.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we take that break.

 7             Witness, you said, and -- let me find it.  Yes.  When asked about

 8     Mr. Brdjanin you said he was working in Banja Luka, he had got nothing to

 9     with Celinac.  They had their own president of the municipality who came.

10     He came where?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He could come if there was need.

12     But he had his own Crisis Staff.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're changing from one line to another.

14     You said he came, not he could come.  But you said he came.  Came where?

15     Is that the meeting of the -- is that the meeting of the ARK Crisis

16     Staff.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He could have come.  But as I

18     said, I never saw any municipal president at the Crisis Staff.  I never

19     saw any of them there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say he could come, you said he came, and

21     you say I never saw him there.

22             Okay.  That's -- we have to evaluate that evidence and all the

23     other evidence we received on this matter.

24             Mr. Traldi, any further questions before the break or not --

25             MR. TRALDI:  Not before the break.

Page 29775

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break.

 2             Mr. Kupresanin, we take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see

 3     you back after that.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, two brief matters before the break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  First, I'd seek to add this page to P6994, MFI, once

 8     portions are selected to be admitted.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And second, just to correct myself a moment ago, I

11     believe I said I said Mr. Sajic testified last week.  I believe it's now

12     the week before last.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are in a new week now, yes, Mr. Traldi.

14             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, waiting for the witness to come in.

18             I'm addressing parties now about the scheduling of early next

19     year.

20             Mr. Lukic, we received a message that you would have one witness

21     available for the week where you more or less you requested not to sit.

22     Of course we do not know whether it's the -- whether there are any chance

23     that others would come as well.  We also have -- are considering whether

24     you would prefer, if there would be only one witness, and we're still in

25     a -- the phase of considering matters, whether it would help you out if

Page 29776

 1     we would sit five days the week after that but then not to sit that one

 2     week and use the fifth day, if you would be able to conclude the evidence

 3     of that witness during one day, and if that would also be a possibility

 4     for the Prosecution then to give you an option.  But, again, we -- of

 5     course, we first like to have more witnesses.  But if it was just that

 6     one witness, whether it would be an option to -- to hear the evidence of

 7     that witness in one day and then to skip that week.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I was more hopeful before, Your Honours, when I told

 9     you that we are still trying to get more witnesses for that week.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  But I think where we stand now is that we can have

12     only have that one, and we -- if Your Honours decide that way, we would

13     accept your proposition to sit five days the next week.  It would be --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least --

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- preferable.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we are --

17             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't even think about it but it would be --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC:  -- excellent --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We are considering it.

21             MR. LUKIC:  -- [overlapping speakers].

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And, of course, one of the issues would be whether

23     it would fit into one day and that depends also on the time for

24     cross-examination needed.

25             I just raised it with you so that you can think about and we'd

Page 29777

 1     like to hear any further responses later today.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kupresanin, we'll now continue the -- to hear

 4     your evidence in cross-examination.

 5             May I draw your attention to one thing which seems to brother you

 6     and may brother others as well.  It is that you are often telling us

 7     whether things could have happened or whether they should have happened,

 8     whereas it seems that Mr. Traldi is mainly focusing on one what he, at

 9     least on the basis of documentation, thinks -- thinks has happened.

10             Now, there is a clear distinction between what happens.

11     Sometimes even things are happening that could not happen if everything

12     would be in accordance with all the rules and -- and there's another

13     option that perhaps that things should not have happened.  But

14     Mr. Traldi, again and again, is asking you on what he thinks happened,

15     looking at the documents, such as that there was a decision, because he

16     reads there is a decision, whereas you're explaining that there could not

17     be a decision or at least there should not have been a decision.  Let's

18     try to distinguish those very clearly and first answer his questions

19     about what he sees in the documents that has happened.

20             Could you clearly make that distinction in trying to first focus

21     your answer on what is asked.

22             Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, I'm go doing ask you a few question you now about

25     Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 29778

 1             Now other people told you that they had heard Mr. Brdjanin say on

 2     television that only a thousand Muslims could stay in Banja Luka; right?

 3        A.   That's not what I heard.  What I heard on TV was that --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- the B and H television one day asked him about what happened

 6     in Banja Luka --

 7        Q.   Finish your sentence.

 8        A.   Journalists in Banja Luka asked him how desirable it would be if

 9     the Muslims came back, and then he said one -- he gave a percentage.  I

10     don't remember the percentage.  What I know about his statement has to do

11     with the potential number of people who should return to Banja Luka, but

12     what I say and what others say about what he said does not necessarily

13     have to be true.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, your question was unclear.  You said

15     other people told you that -- let me see.  It's ... other people told

16     Mr. Kupresanin, yes, then I withdraw my observation.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have --

18        Q.   We still have your OTP interview up.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 43 in the English and page 64 in

20     the B/C/S.  And towards the bottom of this page in English towards the

21     top of the page in B/C/S.

22        Q.   You were asked:

23             "Have you heard him on TV saying that only a thousand Muslims

24     would stay in Banja Luka? "

25             You said:

Page 29779

 1             "I didn't hear that myself, but I heard that he had said that."

 2             You were asked:

 3             "Who told you that?  Other Muslims or Serbs or everybody was

 4     saying it? "

 5             And you responded:

 6             "Serbs told me that, but a normal person cannot say such a

 7     thing."

 8             And then in the same paragraph, you mentioned Hitler.

 9             So does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were

10     told during the war that Brdjanin had gone on television and said only a

11     thousand Muslims could stay in Banja Luka?

12        A.   I cannot remember that.  People said all kinds of things.  I

13     cannot remember that specific case or the number 1.000.  I don't know who

14     said that or where this number of 1.000 came from.

15        Q.   Do you remember hearing from many Muslims that they were afraid

16     of him?

17        A.   Well, it was not pleasant to listen to that kind of talk.  Of

18     course it was not pleasant.

19        Q.   Specifically, do you remember hearing from Muslims that they were

20     afraid of Mr. Brdjanin, yes or no?

21        A.   I heard that -- that they were afraid or that they were being

22     frightened.  I don't know if that's the same thing, but I heard that they

23     were afraid.

24        Q.   Of Mr. Brdjanin, yes or no?

25        A.   Of the things he said, in his addresses.

Page 29780

 1        Q.   And you considered as of 2001 that Brdjanin wanted to impose

 2     radical nationalist solutions for the benefit of one national group

 3     against the rights of other national groups; right?

 4        A.   No.  In my opinion, first of all, Brdjanin in my opinion was not

 5     an extremist nationalist.  As for him being a nationalist or not, that's

 6     another story all together.  But I don't consider that he was a

 7     nationalist.

 8             What was Brdjanin, in fact, like?

 9        Q.   Sir --

10        A.   He found himself in that position at that particular moment --

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 56 of the same interview in the

12     English, page 82 in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   And what I'm going to do for the remainder of this portion of the

14     examination, sir, is simply read to you portions of the interview you

15     gave 13 years ago that you testified was truthful and was given when your

16     recollection was fresher.

17             You were asked here whether Brdjanin was one of the most radical

18     in the Krajina, and you asked what radical means.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And so beginning at line 31 in the English and 16 in

20     the B/C/S, I think.

21        Q.   You're told:

22             "A very fair comment.  When I say 'radical,' I mean radical

23     nationalists, someone who wants to impose solutions, radical nationalist

24     solutions for the benefit of one national group against the rights of

25     other national groups."

Page 29781

 1             You replied:

 2             "I understood.  Well, judging by his appearances or, and his

 3     attitude, what he said, Brdjanin had all those elements and more than

 4     that."

 5             You were asked:

 6             "What do you mean by more than that?"

 7             And you responded:

 8             "Well, this 10 per cent thing.  Or what Tudjman said, a third of

 9     Serbs will be killed ..."

10             MR. TRALDI:  I think we're turning to the next page, I apologise,

11     in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   "Or what Tudjman said, a third of Serbs will be killed, a third

13     of Serbs will be converted, and a third of Serbs will be forced out or

14     deported and he did that."

15             You were asked:

16             "When you say the 10 per cent thing, you mean the statements

17     Brdjanin made that only a few per cent of Muslims and Croats can remain

18     in the Krajina?"

19             And you answered:

20             "Yes, that's what I heard from you, but also I heard it from the

21     Serbs."

22             So that's the truth, what you said in your interview in 2001,

23     that Brdjanin had all the elements of a radical nationalist and more and

24     that you'd heard that, as you testified a moment ago, that only a few

25     per cent of Muslims and Croats could remain in the Krajina, in his

Page 29782

 1     position; right.

 2        A.   Yes, that was his position, that 1 per cent or certain number of

 3     people should come back.  It was expressed in terms of percentages, but I

 4     don't remember what that figure, the percentage, actually was.

 5        Q.   And do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion

 6     of your interview that I read to you a moment ago?

 7        A.   Yes, for the most part, I do.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Given the qualification, I'll seek to that add to

 9     P6994 Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But for the most part.  In what part do you not

11     agree, from what was read to you as your previous statement?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way it's formulated.  Brdjanin

13     as a nationalist and an extreme nationalist, all these are terms for

14     analysis.  His statements do lead to that sort of conclusion, but he was

15     not like that as a person.  I did give a statement about it, and I do

16     stand by the statement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That was -- you earlier made that reservation

18     but apparently I now understand that you stand by the interview you gave

19     which was just read to you.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Can we page 68 in the English and 100 in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   And you were asked --

22             MR. TRALDI:  Beginning at the top of the page in the English, and

23     actually if we could go back to the bottom of page 99 in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   You were asked:

25             "Do you think Radoslav Brdjanin is a war criminal?"

Page 29783

 1             And you respond:

 2             "I think that Radoslav Brdjanin ask responsible for certain

 3     things."

 4             You were asked:

 5             "What are those things ...?"

 6             And you say:

 7             "And for those things he should be prosecuted."

 8             You're asked:

 9             "What are those things he is responsible for?"

10             And you say:

11             "I cannot qualify him or I cannot say that he's a war criminal.

12     There's an institution for that.  When such an institution qualifies him

13     or decides that he's a war criminal, then I will do it as well.  What I

14     put on his soul are statements in, to which other national ... people of

15     other nationality, nationalities had great problems and probably those

16     statements made them move, partly."

17             You were asked:

18             "The statements that he was making on television and in the

19     media, in your opinion, was there a cause to insight Serbs living in the

20     ARK region to fight or to start a conflict with Muslims and Croats and to

21     commit the crimes that were committed in the ARK region? "

22             You say:

23             "I don't think that he had any influence before the war.  What I

24     think was bad was during the war, what happened during the war."

25             And you were asked:

Page 29784

 1             "So, during the war, did he incite the local Serbian population

 2     in the Krajina to commit the crimes against Muslims and Croats?"

 3             You responded:

 4             "I think that his statements contributed to the great danger

 5     that, that Croats and Muslims were put into and probably one part of them

 6     moved out because of those things."

 7             Do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of

 8     your OTP interview in 2001 that I've just read out to you?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm trying to remember now what I said approximately 14

10     years ago.  And I can say at the end, if it's the end, regarding

11     Brdjanin, that his statements were what they were and that they created

12     fear among the people.

13             As for how much those statements contributed to people leaving

14     the area, it probably did have an effect to a certain degree.  So my

15     statement there is more or less that.  Brdjanin did not cause the war.

16     Politics caused the war.

17        Q.   Sir --

18        A.   When the war started, all the parties --

19        Q.   Again, I haven't asked you about the causes of the war, and I

20     appreciate that your explaining the same points you explained in that

21     part of your interview.  But can I ask you to simply answer, yes or no,

22     whether you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of your

23     prior interview that I read out to you.

24        A.   All right.  Very well.  I do stand by it.

25        Q.   Now, you believed that Mr. Brdjanin was serving a purpose to

Page 29785

 1     someone through expressing these extreme views; right?

 2        A.   I cannot say whether he was representatives of somebody's

 3     politics or not, whether he was doing something out of his own head, or

 4     based on somebody else's ideas.  I think that he did not do these things

 5     based on what was going on in his mind at the time.  That would be my

 6     assessment.  I don't know what I can say about it, actually.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 68 in the English and the bottom

 8     of page 100 in the B/C/S.

 9             And we looked at this portion of your interview before in a

10     different context, and it's just below the portion we have on our screens

11     now.

12        Q.   You say:

13             "I don't know anything, whether he went or he didn't go.  We

14     didn't socialise.  He had his own world, his people were the top, on the

15     top."

16             That's the part we looked at before.

17             And then you say:

18             "Let me just say something, all his speeches and all those

19     statements and actions could have been cut off by somebody and somebody

20     could have shortened his horns.  I wonder why people who were able to do

21     that didn't do it, because such statements and such accents, actions of

22     his, only damaged or created damage for the Serb people.  So the

23     president of the country could have done it, the president of the

24     assembly could have, parliament, I'm sorry, the parliament, president of

25     the parliament, president of the government or the prime minister.  Why

Page 29786

 1     did they tolerate it, maybe they agreed with him, I don't know."

 2             First, do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of this

 3     portion of your interview as I've read it out to you today?

 4        A.   It was war time, I think, and there were such statements,

 5     warmongering statements, on all sides --

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   -- and that was the reaction.

 8        Q.   Again, I've asked you a very simple question:  Do you stand by

 9     the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of your interview that I

10     just read out to you, yes or no.

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   And you testified in the Karadzic case that you believed

13     Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with the army about these positions of

14     his; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You believed he had an ideal relationship with the VRS; right?

17        A.   Not with the army but with some people; specific people in the

18     army.  He socialised with them often.

19        Q.   Who do you have in mind?

20        A.   Most probably he spent time with some officers.  I don't know who

21     I can mention specifically.  Perhaps some lower-ranking officers.  Some

22     officers like that.  He often referred to the army and so on.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31772, page 46.

24        Q.   And as it comes up, this will be a portion of your sworn

25     testimony in the Karadzic case.

Page 29787

 1             Mr. Tieger asked you about the same portion of your OTP interview

 2     that I just asked you about, and you said:

 3             "I see that I've said that and I probably did, but I'll be more

 4     precise now.  I believe Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with the army

 5     on this subject.  That's my opinion.  And I believe that he did not

 6     communicate on that subject at all with Mr. Karadzic.  He adored officers

 7     and generals.  I was sometimes in conflict with them but his relationship

 8     with them was ideal."

 9             Now, in the Karadzic case you did not suggest that it was

10     lower-ranking officers that Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with about

11     his extreme views.  You said it was officers and generals; right?

12        A.   I don't know.  He mentioned the army a lot, but I don't know

13     actually who he was in contact with, what those -- who those officers

14     were.  I mean, I would refer to them often as a factor of threat.  I

15     think he did that in order to seem or to appear more powerful in our

16     eyes.  But I don't recall the names of the officers.  He did used to

17     refer to them, yes.

18        Q.   I wanted to -- to be fair, I want to be quite clear what I'm

19     putting to you now.  What I'm putting to you is, in the Karadzic case you

20     testified that it was officer and generals Mr. Brdjanin was in

21     communication with about this.  Just now, you said that you don't, in

22     fact, know who he was in communication with about it.  What I'm putting

23     to you is when you attempted to limit it to lower-ranking officers a

24     moment ago, you did so because you were testifying on behalf of one of

25     the generals in that army.  That's true, isn't it?

Page 29788

 1        A.   It's true that the general who is sitting here knew and he

 2     defended the Serbian people at a certain point in time.  Some JNA

 3     generals escaped.  If it hadn't been for him, the Serbian people would

 4     have been in big trouble.  So the Serbian people do have the -- lots of

 5     reasons to be very grateful to this general who is sitting here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] We turn into closed session.

 7                           [Closed session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             Witness, Mr. Kupresanin, the Chamber would have preferred that

18     would you have answered the question that was put to you by Mr. Traldi

19     rather than to give the comment which was not solicited from you and

20     which apparently has led to some reaction in this courtroom.

21             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that the Karadzic testimony

23     also be marked for identification.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31772 receives number P7010,

Page 29789

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And for both we'll make a proposed selection at the

 4     conclusion of the testimony.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the Defence can make any suggestions to

 6     add for context other parts.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P353, page 53 in the English and the

 9     B/C/S transcript.

10        Q.   As it comes up, sir, did you ever have occasion to meet with

11     General Mladic during the war?

12        A.   No.  Did I have the opportunity, yes.  During assembly sessions I

13     had the opportunity.  I wasn't very close to General Mladic.  We even had

14     some conflicts, disagreement regarding the conduct of the army and so on.

15     I had the opportunity or I was an intermediary in his appointment.

16     Radovan Karadzic --

17        Q.   Sir --

18        A.   -- asked me at one point to seek an officer in the JNA --

19        Q.   I've asked you a very simple question and again you've gone

20     beyond it.  This is a portion of General Mladic's notebook from the

21     2nd of June, 1992.  It's a meeting with the leaderships of the Bosnian

22     Krajina, the SRK, and unit commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps, and the

23     commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Now if we could turn to page 57 in both languages.

25        Q.   Before I get to the substance of the meeting, we see your name

Page 29790

 1     and that you discuss events regarding Doboj.  So, in fact, you did meet

 2     with General Mladic during the war outside of assembly sessions; right?

 3     At least on this occasion.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, turning to page 54 in both languages, General Mladic is

 6     recording for most of this page remarks by Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Brdjanin

 7     says at the second bullet point:

 8             "Everything in the ARK is done at KS level."

 9             That's Crisis Staff level; right?

10        A.   Well, if he used the abbreviation KS, then he did.  I don't know.

11     I don't know whether Brdjanin was at that session.  If you say that he

12     was, then he was.  I don't know whether you know at all why that meeting

13     was organised.  I believe I do know, so maybe you will allow me to

14     explain.  If not, I hope I've answered your question.

15        Q.   For the moment, what I'm asking you is KS here refers to Crisis

16     Staff; right?  Yes or no.

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Below that, Mr. Brdjanin --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, do you know any other explanation for

20     the acronym KS?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, the Crisis Staff was

22     never active on the breakthrough of the corridor.  At least not

23     officially.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, that's not what I asked you.  The

25     question is whether -- we have to interpret what is written there.  It

Page 29791

 1     says KS.  You say I don't know whether it was meant to mean Crisis Staff.

 2     My question to now is:  Do you know of any other explanation for an

 3     abbreviation which is KS?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have an explanation for

 5     this abbreviation KS.  I don't know what this refers to.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if you don't have --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You are aware that KS is often used as an

 9     abbreviation for Crisis Staff.  Are you aware of that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.  I don't know that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- you do not know that KS is the usual

12     abbreviation for Crisis Staff?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But a few lines ago -- let me get that on my screen

15     again.

16             A few moments ago, it was read to you:

17             "Everything in the ARK is done at KS level."

18             And Mr. Traldi then asked you:

19             "That's Crisis Staff level; right?"

20             You said:

21             "Well, if he used the abbreviation KS, then he did."

22             And then you continued saying that you do not know who was

23     present and you do not know whether -- why it was at all organised, that

24     meeting.  You -- you apparently seem to accept that KS is the usual

25     abbreviation for Crisis Staff.

Page 29792

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Line 42 -- page 42, line 1, he explicitly said:

 4             "I don't know."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  "I don't know," and he continued --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  He was -- he --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  These are matters not to be discussed when the

10     witness listens in.

11             "I don't know.  I don't know whether Brdjanin was at that

12     session."

13             So whether the --

14             MR. LUKIC:  No.  If he used the abbreviation KS --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

16             MR. LUKIC:  -- I don't know.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic we stop this discussion we have an

18     opportunity to later analyse that.

19             My simple question is you are not aware of KS being the usual

20     abbreviation for Crisis Staff?  Because this Chamber, let me be clear to

21     you, has seen the abbreviation KS for Crisis Staff hundreds of times, and

22     this Chamber has never heard any other explanation for that abbreviation

23     as it referring to Crisis Staff.

24             Therefore, I'm asking you whether you are familiar with any other

25     understanding of what the abbreviation KS stands for?

Page 29793

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  But the

 2     official name of the institution is Crisis Staff, not KS.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that is evading the question because

 4     abbreviations usually are not the official names.  Let's leave it to

 5     that.

 6             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one --

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- additional question.

11             Who was president of the Crisis Staff of the ARK?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brdjanin.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That clarifies the situation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Below the part I read to you, Mr. Brdjanin says:

17             "It's a mistake to appoint agents from the centre."

18             What he's saying there is that there isn't a need to -- for the

19     republic-level authorities to appoint a commissioner in the ARK because

20     he'll carry out their decisions, he and the Crisis Staff; right?

21        A.   I know nothing about that.  I know nothing about that.

22        Q.   Turning to page 55, Mr. Brdjanin is still speaking, refers in the

23     lower part of the page to the problem of the Krajina, which he says is

24     14.500 Muslims.  This is a reference to the number of Muslims being held

25     prisoner around the ARK at the beginning of June 1992; right?

Page 29794

 1        A.   There were not that many Muslim prisoners.  I don't know how many

 2     times were in Prijedor.  There was Omarska, there was Keraterm, those

 3     were two collection centres.  I don't know how many people were held

 4     there.  14.000 is totally out of the question.  He may have said that but

 5     that's not the truth.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Where it says that those were prisoners?  I cannot

 7     find.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I put to the witness that that was what he was

 9     talking about.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the question, Mr. Lukic.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Turning to the next page, page 56, still Mr. Brdjanin, and while

14     we do, do you recall what in your opinion he did mean by 14.500 Muslims?

15     There are clearly more than 14.500 Muslims among the pre-war population

16     of the ARK.

17        A.   Why he would use that figure, I don't know.  I don't know why he

18     said that at all.  I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, as far as the transcript is concerned,

20     looking at page 45, line 13, it's my recollection that the witness was

21     translated and was interpreted as having said that's not the truth.  Is

22     that everyone's recollection, then?

23             MR. TRALDI:  Mine too, yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. Lukic?

Page 29795

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying to find it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads:  "He may have said that...," it's about

 3     the number.  I think I heard --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  That's not the truth.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that's not the truth.  That's what we heard.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Now on this page at the end of his remarks, Mr. Brdjanin says:

 9             "About prisoners and refugees?  A position, please, at the

10     highest level."

11             Here he is asking for guidance from the republic-level

12     authorities what to do about prisoners and refugees in the ARK; right?

13        A.   I don't remember that at all.

14        Q.   I'm going to turn now to some of those prisoners.  I'll start

15     with Omarska camp.  First, I'm going to ask to you confirm that you went

16     to Omarska at President Karadzic's direction; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   When you were at Omarska camp, you saw several hundred or maybe a

19     thousand people sitting in an asphalt area between two buildings; right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   You went to the director's office and asked if there were any

22     deputies from the assembly there as prisoners?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now the director was Mr. Mejakic and he was wearing a blue police

25     uniform; right?

Page 29796

 1        A.   I saw a number of police uniforms there.  I don't remember who

 2     the director was.

 3        Q.   Now, you took a detainee named Mevludin Sejmenovic out of the

 4     camp; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And in his presence, you called President Karadzic to report to

 7     President Karadzic about how your visit had gone; right?

 8        A.   Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic, myself, and Mr. Karadzic found ourselves

 9     at the assembly building in Banja Luka and we discussed many things.  And

10     we also were in communication with President Karadzic.  It is true that

11     we were in communication with him, it is true that we had a meeting, and

12     it's true that we talked.  All that is true.  All that is correct.

13        Q.   Specifically in his presence you made a phone call -- shortly

14     after taking him, you made a phone call to President Karadzic to report

15     to him on what had happened; right?

16        A.   Correct, correct.

17        Q.   Now you said in your interview in 2001 that you were angry about

18     what you saw in Omarska because you thought it would hurt the Serb cause.

19     You thought it would hurt the Serb cause because you could tell walking

20     in that those people were being held in unacceptable conditions; right?

21        A.   I did have an argument with Radovan about that.  I asked him why

22     we needed all that, and then he told me that he had not done that, that

23     it was some other people over there who --

24        Q.   Sir --

25        A.   Okay, okay.

Page 29797

 1        Q.   I'd ask you to focus very carefully on my question.  You thought

 2     it would hurt the Serb cause because you recognised these were

 3     unacceptable conditions; right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Illegal conditions; right?

 6        A.   There was a huge concentration of people in a small space.

 7     Illegal, unnatural ... remains to be discussed.

 8        Q.   Well, let's discuss it.  You know as you sit there today that

 9     people were abused, tortured, and murdered in Omarska; right?

10        A.   I didn't know anything about that.  I was not even aware of

11     Omarska camp, i.e., collection centre.  I was not in the picture at all.

12     When Radovan Karadzic told me that I had to do this --

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   -- and that because I enjoyed reputation, I had authority, then

15     I --

16        Q.   -- I asked you as you sit there today you are aware, aren't you,

17     that people were abused, tortured, and murdered in Omarska.  Today.

18        A.   I know that the conditions were bad.  I heard that some people

19     had been killed there.  That's all I ever knew.

20        Q.   Now, if we could have your OTP interview back --

21             MR. TRALDI:  65 ter 31770, page 42 in the English, and 62 in the

22     B/C/S.

23        Q.   -- you say in your statement and you said -- well, you say in

24     your statement when you're discussing Omarska in paragraph 43 that the

25     local authorities in Prijedor acted on their own initiative.  What you

Page 29798

 1     said --

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   What you said in 2001 discussing Omarska --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And we're towards the bottom of the page, line 35 in

 5     the English.

 6        Q.   You say first:

 7             "Radovan Karadzic never told me to get Muslim functionaries or

 8     politicians out of there.  I did it on my own initiative.  What I want to

 9     say is that Radovan Karadzic told me personally that he had nothing to do

10     with that but my feeling is what I have is that the order about the camp,

11     about the camps to be established, didn't come from Brdjanin, but

12     somewhere, someone on the top, but I don't know who from."

13             So your opinion expressed in your statement, that the Prijedor

14     authorities acted on their own initiative with regard to the camps, is an

15     opinion you developed between 2001 when you gave this interview and 2013

16     when you testified in Mr. Karadzic's Defence; right?

17        A.   Radovan Karadzic told me that he had nothing to do with those

18     camps, that some idiots had done that of their own will.  He told me of

19     that in this own initiative and that is what I base my position on.

20     Obviously after so many years I have spoken with people and asked them

21     what was going on in Prijedor at the time.  I know that people came to me

22     for two --

23        Q.   Sir, when did he tell you that?

24        A.   When I spoke to him, when Sejmenovic was drinking coffee in my

25     office.  The door was ajar, the door was open --

Page 29799

 1        Q.   So he told you that in 1992.  In 2001, you believed that the

 2     order had come from above.  What I'm putting to you is you've changed

 3     your evidence between the interview you gave in 2001 and your testimony

 4     on Mr. Karadzic's behalf last year.  That's the truth, isn't it?

 5        A.   What you're saying is not correct.  What I am saying is true.

 6     You don't want my truth, do you?  So what am I supposed to do?  Allow me

 7     to tell you the truth.  You are the Prosecutor, you represent the United

 8     Nations, and you on behalf of the entire globe have to be fair.

 9     You represent a serious body.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.

11             What Mr. Traldi is exploring at this moment, whether you have

12     been consistent in what you said earlier and what you said later.

13             So if you say I'm telling you the truth, Mr. Traldi is exploring

14     which of the two moments reflects what really is the truth, because he

15     sees some inconsistency in it.  That's what he is doing and that's what

16     he's supposed to do.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Leaving Omarska now for Keraterm, you also know as you sit there

20     today that serious crimes including mass killings were committed in

21     Keraterm; right?

22        A.   I heard about that.

23        Q.   Do you recall when you learned about it?  During the war or

24     afterwards?

25        A.   Towards the end of the war and afterwards.  There were articles

Page 29800

 1     in the newspapers.  And what I read in the newspapers is what I accepted

 2     as the truth.  I was never in Keraterm myself.

 3        Q.   Turning to Manjaca, where you also were yourself, you went in

 4     August 1992; right?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   You took several prisoners out of Manjaca.  For you to do that,

 7     it was necessary for you first to get President Karadzic to pardon them;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Then you would forward that pardon to the commander of the

11     1st Krajina Corps, General Talic, because his corps had authority over

12     the camp; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   While you were at Manjaca, you saw a number of Muslims who were

15     sick or ill, and you warned the VRS officers you saw there that they

16     could be legally responsible for the prisoners' condition; right?

17        A.   I spoke to the officers about the Geneva Conventions and

18     prisoners of war.  I warned them what might happen if they did not comply

19     with that, because we were signatories of the Geneva Conventions, i.e.,

20     Yugoslavia, the state that had disappeared was a signatory and we adopted

21     its obligations and commitments.  I was satisfied with what I saw in

22     Manjaca to a certain extent.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now you came to an answer to the question when

24     you said you were satisfied to a certain extent.  To what extent and to

25     what extent you were not?

Page 29801

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To what extent?  Can I be allowed

 2     to talk about Manjaca and what I saw there?  If you won't allow me to say

 3     what I want, then I won't.  Your Honour, please allow me to say what I

 4     saw.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm inviting you, as a matter of fact, to tell

 6     us what you saw, and let's start with, because you said to some extent

 7     you were satisfied, which suggests that in other respects you were not

 8     satisfied that it was in line with the Geneva Conventions.  And I first

 9     would like to invite you to tell us what you saw which you considered not

10     to be in line with the Geneva Conventions, if there was anything.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seemed to me that there was a

12     lot of people in those buildings.  The beds were not beds actually.

13     Those were mattresses on the floor.  What else?  I inspected the food

14     being prepared, what they were given to eat.  I saw that.  I noticed a

15     number of people who were sick or so I thought.  So I said that an

16     infirmary should be opened there.  I asked them if there was a doctor

17     there and they said that there was.  I said excellent.  I said that an

18     infirmary could be opened.  I held speeches before the prisoners in those

19     buildings, and I told them all those are innocent and who had not

20     transgressed the law would be released, and those of you who had

21     committed crimes, you would be held responsible for them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I asked you what you saw, not what kind of

23     speeches you delivered.  You've answered that question.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 40 in the English and 58 in the B/C/S

Page 29802

 1     of this same interview.  And actually, it will be at, I think, starting

 2     at the very bottom of the previous page in the B/C/S.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi I'm looking at the clock.  I don't know

 4     how many questions you would have on this.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to read this paragraph, ask him to confirm

 6     it, and then move to a different topic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's do that and then take a break.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   What said in 2001 was -- you were asked about Manjaca:

10             "I didn't know that but it's logical.  Let me say something.

11     During that day, when I was there," and that time referring to Omarska,

12     "during one day they were all transferred to Manjaca.  I went there the

13     next day immediately on my own initiative."

14             MR. TRALDI:  And turning to the next page in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   "I gathered a number of officers.  I saw a number of Muslims who

16     were lying, lying, fallen sick or ill, I warned or pointed out to the

17     officers that they could possibly be responsible for that.  I said that

18     all prisoners were registered and if they make any mistakes in -- towards

19     the prisoners, they would be -- they would sue or they would be called

20     liable or responsible for it.  They were in stables, there was hay under

21     them, and on the hay was one blanket."

22             Do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of that

23     description of what you saw at Manjaca that you provided in 2001?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I will turn to new topic after the break,

Page 29803

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break first.

 3             Mr. Kupresanin, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 4             Mr. Traldi, I think your announcement was four hours.  Then we

 5     are -- there's not much left.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  I admit I'm running a few minutes

 7     behind but expect to be done in the first half of this next session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well then, you're not a few minutes behind but quite

 9     a bit.  Try to -- my record tells me that you have 15 minutes left.  Try

10     to see to what extent you can stick to within your time-limits.  And if

11     you go over it, it should be minutes, not much more.

12             We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic while we're waiting for the witness to be

17     brought in, the Chamber suggested that we would proceed and that any

18     e-court problem you're suffering from at this moment will be fixed.

19             If that causes you real problems then, of course, we would stop

20     and wait until everything is done, but ...

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to the massacre at Brisevo in Prijedor

Page 29804

 1     municipality.  You do not mention this in your statement but you have

 2     been interviewed about it.  Now, you went to Brisevo yourself in 1992;

 3     right?

 4        A.   I did not go to Brisevo.  I did attempt to enter it,

 5     unsuccessfully though.  I still can't explain to myself why.  In any

 6     case, I met the wives of those killed in Brisevo and I spoke with them.

 7     We were in a small Catholic church.  Later on, there was a mass led by

 8     the Archbishop Komarica.  All of the women present asked for my help.

 9     They asked me to help them to leave the village and to secure buses for

10     them to go on to a number of European countries.

11        Q.   Now, I want to go step by step through your evidence about this.

12     You say you went with Bishop Komarica.  You went with him and two VRS

13     officers from the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   And you spoke to the gathering of Croat survivors that you

16     described; right?

17        A.   I spoke to the Croat women who were there.  There were no men.

18        Q.   They told you that there had been a massacre in --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   They told you the VRS had entered the village and killed 68

21     people and destroyed a large number of houses; right?

22        A.   They said that the Army of Republika Srpska -- actually not the

23     Army of Republika Srpska but that somebody enter the village and killed a

24     number of people.  I don't know whether they said 60 or 70.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 63 in the English, 92 in the

Page 29805

 1     B/C/S, of this same interview.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There's a big buzz coming

 3     from the English both.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we were bothered by some buzz, but it came in

 5     and went out again and if there's -- let's see whether we can get rid of

 6     it forever.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, for context let's have the bottom of the

 9     previous page, please, in the English.

10        Q.   Now you were asked:

11             "Did you know who was responsible for the [sic] crimes in

12     Brisevo?"

13             MR. TRALDI:  And we then turn to the next page in the English.

14             And you answered:

15             "Well, they said that it was committed by, the crimes were

16     committed by the army.  That they, they did it suddenly, quickly, very

17     quickly, in a flash light."

18             Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were aware

19     that it was specifically the VRS that had committed those crimes?

20        A.   In a conversation with the officers later on, they said that it

21     wasn't the army, that it was no military operation.  They said that -- a

22     group of people did that of their own initiative and for their own

23     reasons.

24        Q.   Sir, first, you didn't mention that in 2001 in your interview,

25     did you?

Page 29806

 1        A.   I don't remember what I said in 2001.  Perhaps you can read it

 2     back to me.  What I saw is what I'm telling you now.  Perhaps there may

 3     be some differences in details between my statement and now because of

 4     the time which has elapsed, but what I'm telling you is true.  I keep

 5     appealing to the truth being heard before the UN, but it seems you're

 6     very unwilling to accept it.

 7        Q.   What I'm putting to you --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you refrain from these kind of

 9     comments.  We are asking questions.  We are carefully listening to your

10     answers.  But we have -- there were some moments of perceived

11     inconsistencies, there were movements of perceived contradictions, and

12     they have to be clarified.  That does not justify any comment that

13     Mr. Traldi or anyone else in this courtroom would not be willing to hear

14     the truth.

15             Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Just so we're clear, what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is that

18     between your interview in 2001 you seem to have forgotten a number of

19     things and recalled a number of others, and the things that you have --

20     that you claim to have recalled in the intervening time all, I suspect,

21     you believe diminish the responsibility of President Karadzic and

22     General Mladic for the crimes that you discussed in your interview, and I

23     put to you that your testimony today is not truthful.  Do you have any

24     comment on that.

25        A.   I only know that it was not a planned military operation.  In my

Page 29807

 1     conversations with different people, I managed to establish that.  It

 2     turned out that a group of soldiers committed what they did.  That's the

 3     truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There is again a problem and the English booth is

 5     blamed for it, at least that it comes from the English booth.  Could we

 6     have the assistance of technicians so that where the English booth, I

 7     think ...

 8             Oh, technicians are looking at it at this moment.  But the

 9     English booth is innocent until proven guilty.

10             Please proceed.

11             Witness, again, you're not responding to the question that is put

12     to you.  The question is that there are differences between your previous

13     statements and your present statements, what -- and your later evidence.

14     Mr. Traldi puts it to you that the things you have forgotten and the

15     things you have now remembered, that they -- he understands them to be

16     not totally impartial.  He said that the responsibility of

17     President Karadzic and Mladic, through the new version, is lowered, and

18     he puts to you that that is what you intend to do, to tell us a story

19     which is more favourable to Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic.

20             That's what he asks you.  Please respond to that question.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel very uncomfortable using

22     more time at this trial than necessary.  I am not an attorney and, of

23     course, mistakes are possible.  However, what I know is what I said just

24     a moment ago.  It was not a military operation.  There was a group of

25     soldiers who did that and the problem was that --

Page 29808

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --  okay.  Please continue.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only add to my previous

 3     opinion:  If in 2001 I said something, I could have been wrong.  If I

 4     learned something afterwards in terms of truth, why would I not be

 5     allowed to amend my original statement in order to arrive at a complete

 6     rather than partial truth.  And please help me out with that.  The whole

 7     truth is that these soldiers killed civilians, males, they committed a

 8     crime, and it is true that they were not held responsible.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are misunderstanding what your role is.

10     You're invited to tell us what the women told you.  If someone else told

11     you something else later, you can tell us as well.  Mr. Traldi then asks

12     why you didn't tell it at the time when you were interviewed, but let's

13     leave all that alone.

14             Finally, who is telling the truth, ladies or military officers

15     that you spoke with later on, that's not for you to draw conclusions from

16     what you heard.  What we want to know is what did the women tell you, and

17     if you say I heard something else from someone else, fine, tell us what

18     they told us, but don't present your conclusions in this respect as the

19     truth.  Tell us who told you what.

20             Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, just briefly to follow up.  The Chamber has received

23     evidence, I believe it's P2440 but I'll double-check the reference, that

24     that was, in fact, a military operation directed at villages in Prijedor

25     including Brisevo at the time those crimes were committed.  You weren't

Page 29809

 1     part of the operation and you don't know whether there was or wasn't, do

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  These are two questions, Mr. Traldi.

 4             The first one is you did not participate in that military

 5     operation, I take it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the -- the second question was that you

 8     don't know what happened exactly in this military operation.  You have no

 9     personal knowledge of that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, what you heard about this crime, you didn't keep to

13     yourself, did you?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question before you go to that step.

15             Sir, you say -- what you heard was that these were just soldiers

16     who were doing this and it was not a military operation.  But on this

17     statement that is -- Mr. Traldi is quoting you from, you say:

18             "I didn't say anything.  I don't know, I really don't know.  They

19     said," now these are the women, "that the VRS army barged in.  I didn't

20     which brigade.  You know what?  Those subjects and topic at the beginning

21     of the war, it was very dangerous to reveal them or uncover them.  Many

22     people even if they heard that, they didn't want to hear it, about it."

23             Do you have any comment on that statement, that the VRS barged

24     in.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I've nothing to say.  I don't

Page 29810

 1     know who broke into the village.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you, you have answered

 3     my question.

 4             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, you didn't keep what you learned about the crime that had

 7     been committed there to yourself, did you?

 8        A.   No, I didn't keep it for myself.  Why I would have gone there if

 9     I had wanted to keep it all for myself?

10        Q.   You told, for instance, Momcilo Krajisnik, the president of the

11     assembly; right?

12        A.   I don't remember that.  I did speak with Komarica and a number of

13     officers regarding the fate of the women in Brisevo.  Our thinking was

14     along the lines that they should be allowed to go because of everything

15     they had gone through in that village.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's look now at the bottom of page 91 of

17     this same interview in the B/C/S and page 62 in the English.  And

18     beginning at line 43 in the English.

19        Q.   You were asked -- you say:

20             "Well, what I heard there I told to others.  It didn't stay with

21     me ..."

22             You were asked:

23             "Who did you inform, who did you inform?"

24             And you say:

25             "For example, Momo Krajisnik, maybe a certain numbers of

Page 29811

 1     minister, all deputies from here ..."

 2             That's the truth what you said there, that you told, among

 3     others, Momcilo Krajisnik; right?

 4        A.   I said perhaps.  I don't know who I informed specifically.  I

 5     don't remember that.  I did inform someone, but I don't know who exactly.

 6     Maybe I even informed the radio.  I'm not sure who I told.  In any case,

 7     what I had promised I saw it done.

 8        Q.   Well, in that interview --

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First I would like to draw the witness's

11     attention to the fact that he didn't say "perhaps."  You said:  "For

12     example, Momo Krajisnik."  Can you look at the transcript of your

13     interview?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same or similar.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't decided on a particular

17     person.  I said that perhaps I did inform someone.  But it wasn't so

18     important for me.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was important for me to -- was

22     to see through the promise I had given to the women.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I draw your attention to the fact that you now

24     gave a different account.  In the interviews, then you said, "for

25     example," which is not the same as "perhaps."  Now you are saying

Page 29812

 1     "perhaps."  If you say "for example," then it is a clear statement that

 2     you did it.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was expected of me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's all fine.  What Judge Fluegge is doing

 5     is to clearly put to you that you -- when you said, I said "perhaps,"

 6     that at least on the record, on the transcript of your interview, you did

 7     not say "perhaps."  If you say it's unimportant for me or it's all the

 8     same, that's a different matter, but that's not what you are recorded to

 9     have said.

10             Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Continuing with this topic, and I'm going to return to the

13     approach of simply reading you portions of this interview, you were asked

14     a couple of lines later:

15             "The officers from the 1st Krajina Corps, they were also present

16     when you were being informed?"

17             You respond:

18             "Yes, they were always present."

19             Do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of your

20     statement at the time that the officers from the 1st Krajina Corps were

21     always present when you were informed about the crimes that had been

22     committed in Brisevo?

23        A.   They were our guarantee for myself and for Archbishop Komarica.

24     It was war time and whenever one would see a vehicle with officers, it

25     indicated caution for the sake of our safety, and to reduce the level of

Page 29813

 1     risk they accompanied us.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have the --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The next page, that was.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  -- next page in both languages, please.

 5        Q.   Continuing with the topic of who you informed, we see here,

 6     beginning at line 6 in the B/C/S and 29 in the English that you confirm

 7     to the people of Brisevo:

 8             "I said that I would probably inform the military leadership or

 9     something.  I probably informed Mladic about it, now I can't remember."

10             That was what you said in 2001, that you believed you'd probably

11     informed General Mladic himself; right?

12        A.   That is not so.  As far as I recall, I informed Talic rather than

13     Mladic.  I also informed a number of officers from the 1st Krajina Corps.

14        Q.   Sir, on this same page, you were being asked --

15             MR. TRALDI:  And we go back now to the previous page in the

16     B/C/S.

17        Q.   You're being asked when they told you soldiers from the VRS were

18     involved in the crimes, did it occur to you that you should inform

19     General Talic about it, and you said no.

20             So I'd put to you that when you were interviewed in the context

21     of the Talic trial, you say:  "No, I didn't tell Talic but I probably

22     told Mladic," and when you testify in the Mladic trial, you say:  "No, I

23     didn't tell Mladic, but I probably told Talic."

24             I'd put to you that you are not being truthful with this

25     Tribunal.

Page 29814

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have the next page in B/C/S so the witness

 4     can follow.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is a matter not for re-examination,

 6     Mr. Lukic?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No, it would be too late now --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- because we have recorded words of this witness on

10     this topic exactly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  First of all, should we -- should the witness

12     listen to this at this moment or should he take his earphones off.

13             Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Kupresanin, do you understand the English

14     language?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but I found in B/C/S and I have to find it in

19     English to read it to you, but in B/C/S it's on this page in front of us,

20     line 7.  Although mentioning the name of General Mladic, it is recorded

21     "but I cannot remember now."

22             MR. TRALDI:  I read that out.  I also read that before that he

23     said I probably informed General Mladic.  I gave the full context of the

24     answer.

25             MR. LUKIC:  "But I cannot remember now," so he couldn't remember

Page 29815

 1     then.  So he's not changing.  He just mentioned the name, but he said "I

 2     cannot remember now."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Fine.  That was read to him.  And at least the

 4     witness is asked to comment on that, and it's perfectly a matter which

 5     you could deal with in re-examination because Mr. Traldi did not unfairly

 6     read, I think, the various versions the witness gave about events.  But

 7     let me check that very carefully.  Could you assist me, Mr. --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It's the same page in English.  It's line 30.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line 29.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the transcript --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I can't remember now.  It's -- [Overlapping

13     speakers].

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the transcript of today, page 63, lines 18 and

16     19, Mr. Traldi said, quoted "I probably informed Mladic about it, now I

17     can't remember."  It's part of the quote that Mr. Traldi read to the

18     witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So it was fairly read to the witness.  Now the next

20     question is whether it's summarised well.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Claiming that he is changing something now is not

22     fair.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, probability -- let's --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Well --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  He expressed a probability at that moment, whether

Page 29816

 1     that's very wise to seek probabilities in a witness interview is another

 2     matter.  But then -- let me ...

 3             Yes, I think it's -- page 64, Mr. Traldi puts to the witness that

 4     when he was interviewed, that he said:  I didn't tell Talic but I

 5     probably told Mladic.  Well, if you know for sure you do not say I

 6     probably told Mladic.  Then you say, I told Mladic.

 7             So at that moment, he expressed both a probability and that he

 8     doesn't clearly remember.  The two can exist next to each other the one

 9     does not invalidate the other.  If I say I probably went there but I

10     don't know for sure, then there must be a reason on my mind why I think

11     that I went there rather than to a totally different place even if I do

12     not fully remember.  There's nothing in what Mr. Traldi did which is not

13     fair to the witness.

14             And second, it is a matter which you could have dealt with in

15     re-examination.  But, Mr. Lukic, if it is your view, of course you can

16     explore that with the witness, that if someone says this is what probably

17     happened but I don't remember, that it means that he still thinks it's a

18     probability but he can't say it for sure.  That is a situation which

19     doesn't need further explanation.

20             We'll just move on.  Could the witness --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to articulate what you're now trying

22     to object to which is what Mr. Traldi said.  Mr. Traldi said when you

23     testified in the Talic case you said you probably told Mladic.  Today you

24     are testifying in the Mladic case.  You are now saying you probably told

25     Talic and this is what this witness has said today.  In this report, he

Page 29817

 1     says he probably told Talic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- I think we unanimously agree that

 3     nothing was done wrong.  Could the witness put on his earphones again.

 4             And Mr. Traldi may proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I'm just checking whether the

 6     question was answered.  It was not.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Then, sir, I'll ask the question again.  I'd put to you that when

10     you were interviewed in the context of the Talic trial, you said, no, I

11     didn't tell Talic but I probably told Mladic.  And when you testify in

12     the Mladic trial, you say, no, I didn't tell Mladic, but now I recall

13     that I told Talic, and I'd put to you that you are not being truthful

14     with this Tribunal.  Do you have any comment on that?

15        A.   I cannot remember who I informed at this time.  I said perhaps

16     and it was to be expected that the top of the army be informed.  I don't

17     know who I informed specifically.  There's no written trail, and I'm not

18     sure I did inform anyone in a written form.  In any case, the operation

19     was over.  In my mind, it was successful.  Now who I informed is

20     something I can't remember.

21        Q.   One reason that it was to be expected that the top of the army

22     would be informed was that the officers who were there with you audio

23     recorded the meeting where the Croat women told you what had happened;

24     right?

25        A.   They had their own task, these officers.  Perhaps.  I do not want

Page 29818

 1     to discuss their tasks, but I presume they must have had one.  I don't

 2     think they were simply driving us around.  They were monitoring the

 3     situation.  I wanted to remind you that I did not manage to get into

 4     Brisevo although I wanted to.  We were simply unable to.

 5        Q.   At the bottom of this same page, you were asked:

 6             "So, you're saying that whatever was said in Brisevo, in that

 7     gathering, the military officers, they were video recording everything?"

 8             You say:

 9             "No."

10             You were asked:

11             "So, how were they recording it?"

12             You say:

13             "What do you call it, something like this?"

14             And you were asked:

15             "Oh, you mean audio recording?"

16             And you say:

17             "Just sound."

18             Do you stand by that portion of your interview as accurate and

19     truthful?

20        A.   No, I just assume so.  I didn't see a dictaphone.  I just assume

21     so.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, like several other pages, I haven't

23     always said it, but we'll seek to add that to P6994 MFI.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's clear that whatever subject you deal with

25     in this interview that it will be considered for selection to be

Page 29819

 1     tendered.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Before finishing the Brisevo topic, sir, you knew that Brisevo

 4     had been an unarmed village and there was no combat there; right?

 5        A.   I didn't know anything.  I didn't even know which municipality

 6     Brisevo was in.  Even now I don't know whether it belongs to Prijedor or

 7     Sanski Most.  It was an area that I didn't know about.  I just responded

 8     to a request by Komarica.  I went to look at the situation.  Anywhere I

 9     was asked, I would go.  I tried to resolve these things with Komarica and

10     with the leadership of the municipality.  I was there, I was in Sasina...

11             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have 65 ter 31772.

12        Q.   Your Karadzic testimony.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Page 119.

14        Q.   This is a portion of the re-examination that Mr. Karadzic

15     conducted, so he's asking you the questions.  And he says, beginning at

16     line 4:

17             "Brisevo was mentioned.  Was Brisevo an undefended village with

18     civilians that some armed formation of the Serbs attacked?  Was there any

19     combat there or was this an unarmed village? "

20             And you say:

21             "I think it was unarmed.  There was no combat there."

22             Do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of this portion of

23     your testimony in the Karadzic case?

24        A.   I think that I stand by it.  It was not armed.  Even a number of

25     villagers from the village were in the Army of Republika Srpska and that

Page 29820

 1     is why I'm wondering a lot why this was said:  A military operation on an

 2     unarmed village.  I mean, it's not logical.  It could have been just a

 3     whim of individuals from the Army of Republika Srpska.  That is something

 4     that can be discussed, but I don't know what the truth is.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 31769 and this will

 6     be the last document I use with this witness.

 7        Q.   Sir, as it comes up this will a letter from Bishop Komarica to

 8     yourself.  Aside from Brisevo, he informed you of a number of other

 9     massacres of Croat civilians in Sanski Most, Kotor Varos, and elsewhere

10     in the ARK; right?

11        A.   Yes, I think that I do remember the letter.

12        Q.   And directing your attention to point 1, we see he refers to

13     massacres of civilians in Sanski Most, Skrljevita and other villages, in

14     Bascina, in Kotor Varos, and Ljubija in Prijedor.  Turning to page 2 in

15     both languages, he mentions in this document also the mining and burning

16     of Catholic churches, the razing of houses and other properties.  And

17     just before point 2, he informs you:

18             "Unfortunately, the general result is still quite negative

19     resulting in almost horrific massive evacuation by my faithful,

20     especially from the Sanski Most and Prijedor regions, in an effort to

21     save their bear lives."

22             Did the information that Croats were fleeing Sanski Most and

23     Prijedor in order to save their bear lives remain with you or did you

24     also pass that on to the military and other Bosnian Serb authorities?

25        A.   I don't think that Mr. Komarica informed only me about it.  I

Page 29821

 1     think he informed others and other institutions.  What Mr. Komarica asked

 2     me to do, I implemented in the field in Banja Luka.  I always had the

 3     bishops, the hodzas, the president of the SDA, the president of the HDZ

 4     in my office constantly.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm going ask you two specific questions.  Did you inform

 6     the 1st Krajina Corps command of these crimes that Bishop Komarica

 7     informed you of?

 8        A.   The Banja Luka Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska was informed

 9     about it, they knew about it, they went with me to visit all those

10     places.  It was only Brisevo.  I went with Komarica to all the places

11     where Croats were in danger.

12        Q.   And did you inform the Republika Srpska government of the crimes

13     against Croats that he informed you of, yes or no?

14        A.   I know that Bishop Komarica informed the president of the

15     republic, and I don't know if he informed General Mladic and the

16     president of the assembly.  That is something that I don't know.  And I

17     know that that president, the president of Republika Srpska,

18     Radovan Karadzic, responded to them, saying you can contact Vojo.  That

19     was the most frequent, let's say, instruction or directive that Radovan

20     would give out.

21        Q.   Bishop Komarica says in this letter that there are horrific

22     massive evac indications by Croats from the ARK.  You were aware, you and

23     the other members of the political leadership in the ARK, that Muslims

24     and Croats were fleeing the area in large numbers; right?

25        A.   I knew of those cases in Sanski Most and in Prijedor.  I knew

Page 29822

 1     these things were happening.  I went to the field.  It's not true that

 2     there was an exodus of Muslims and Croats and that I didn't notice that.

 3     There was an exodus but what it was was that people were fleeing from

 4     those villages and from those areas.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination and I

 6     tender this document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31769 receives exhibit number P7011,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness -- to

12     re-examine the witness?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I am.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, good day once again.

16        A.   Good day.

17        Q.   I have a lot of topics that I would like to cover, a lot of

18     documents that we need to look at, so I would just like you to gather

19     your strength.

20        A.   All right.  Thank you.

21        Q.   I'm going to start with Thursday.  My colleague, Mr. Traldi,

22     asked you about logistical support received by the Army of

23     Republika Srpska through the Main Staff from Serbia.  On page 29679 of

24     our transcript, line 19, is where there is this assertion made.  Did the

25     Army of Republika Srpska ask the Crisis Staff of the ARK to supply them

Page 29823

 1     with food, clothing?  Did it make such requests to the municipalities?

 2     In practice, how did this look?  Just briefly.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you're invited to slow down in

 5     speaking.  Please --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the departure of the Yugoslav

 7     People's Army from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was in

 8     late April and in the course of May, sometime the 20th of May, the state

 9     army left, meaning that the Serb people found themselves in an unpleasant

10     situation.  They didn't have paramilitary formations, they did not have

11     reserve army troops.  Those that they looked to and had hoped for help

12     from had left them and abandoned them.  Then we formed our own army on

13     the 12th of May.  The army that we formed, and the state was not formed

14     yet, the operational organs did not function yet or the army ministry, so

15     the logistics fell to the municipalities so that the Banja Luka Corps was

16     mostly financed by the municipality of Banja Luka, and the other units

17     were formed -- were financed and supported by other municipalities.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And throughout the war, did the municipalities continue to equip,

20     feed the units that were on their territory?

21        A.   Not only to feed and clothe, but I know that the municipalities

22     set aside some funds for the purchase of weapons that we didn't have; for

23     ammunition and so on.  All of this was financed by the municipalities.

24        Q.   The next question, the next topic that you were asked about by my

25     colleague Mr. Traldi, on page 29680 of our transcript, lines 20 on, is

Page 29824

 1     that the Army of Republika Srpska had a massive advantage in weaponry,

 2     and you confirmed that.

 3        A.   I confirmed --

 4        Q.   Just one moment, please.  I haven't completed putting my question

 5     to you.  In your opinion, could Serbs have taken the entire Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina at that time?

 7        A.   I think I said openly at the assembly when the question was asked

 8     why does the Army of Republika Srpska not capture all of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina so that we could finish the war, join Serbia, and avoid all

10     of this.  What's happening is senseless.  We can cover Bosnia easily so

11     why don't we do that?  I claim that we could have done that.  When I

12     sought an answer, when I received an answer, then they said, the

13     political leadership said that this was not our objective.  Our objective

14     is to protect the Serbian people.  The Army of Republika Srpska was

15     perhaps the fourth largest army in Europe or the third largest, or the

16     fifth largest.  I mean, you can imagine what that meant in terms of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You meant the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of

19     Yugoslavia?

20        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   At the time, did you know what the weapons factories were and the

22     weapons depots that remained in the territory under the control of

23     Bosnian and Croatian side?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please begin his answer.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness.  Could you -- could you re-start.

Page 29825

 1     It's a bit unclear to us, but the interpreters asked us whether you could

 2     start your answer.  So could you re-start your answer to that question

 3     about weapon factories and weapon depots, that remained in the territory

 4     under the control of the Bosnian and Croatian side.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I begin?

 6             As far as I know, the bulk of the factories were on the side of

 7     the Bosnian -- actually, the Muslim Croatian side.  The biggest such

 8     factory, VBR and tank parts and cannon parts was located in Travnik.  It

 9     remained in the Federation territory.  Konjic manufactured ammunition.

10     It also remained in the B and H federation.  Vitez manufactured dynamite,

11     Trotyl, explosive materials.  Its was in the B and H federation.  I think

12     that in Gorazde also there was a bullet factory.  I don't know what was

13     left over for Republika Srpska.  It was one factory called Kosmos and it

14     was operating in Banja Luka.

15             As far as I know, perhaps that's it.  Maybe there was some other

16     things.  I think the sniper factories ZRAK in Sarajevo also functioned

17     there.  I think we only had one factory on our side.  I mean, it's not my

18     intention to make mistakes, but this is -- this is what I know.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please tell us this.  You mentioned the ZRAK factory in

21     Sarajevo.  On whose side was that?

22        A.   It was on the Muslim side.  It's a sniper factory, precise

23     weapons factory.  High-precision weapons.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P6994, please.

25        Q.   This is your interview to which my colleague Mr. Traldi referred

Page 29826

 1     to often today.  It's been marked for identification.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Perhaps I should have called it up

 3     by its 65 ter number, 31770.  [In English] If we can have B/C/S version

 4     on our screens as well, please.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] You know which document I'm talking about.  I

 6     just want to show you the document and so a few things were put to you in

 7     relation to this document.

 8             Among other things, towards the end of his cross-examination my

 9     colleague, Mr. Traldi, put to you that you provided one statement -- or

10     that this statement, actually, was taken in the context of the Talic

11     trial and that later you testified in the Karadzic and Mladic cases.

12             At this time, when you gave this statement, are you able to

13     remember today if anybody ever told you that they were taking this

14     statement in the context of the General Talic trial?

15        A.   No, we never discussed the topic of General Talic with any

16     investigator.  It's just an empty space, a blank, as far as General Talic

17     is concerned.

18        Q.   In any case, inter alia, you mentioned here that General Talic or

19     one of his deputies was at meetings.  You said that on page 29684, line

20     15.  You said if general was not there, one of his deputies would be.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you also told us that you saw General Talic only once at a

23     Crisis Staff meeting.  Those people who deputised for General Talic, were

24     they able to vote, did they have the decision-making power at the Crisis

25     Staff meeting?  Do you remember?

Page 29827

 1        A.   No, I don't think so.  I remember one of his deputies who came

 2     instead of him.  I know that I saw Talic only once.  I know that he spoke

 3     about bad food in the army, that all the troops were getting was rice,

 4     that they were not trained.  He asked for the food funds which would make

 5     all of us safe.  The person who deputised for him did not vote.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   And now I would like to talk about the topic of regionalisation.

 9     You were shown a document by my learned friend Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document number is P6995.

11        Q.   The document was issued on the 25th September.  You will see it

12     on the screen shortly.  25th September 1991 is the date on the document.

13     It was suggested to you that the ARK was established based on this

14     decision, just like all the other SAOs.

15        A.   I would like to --

16        Q.   Just a moment.  Bear with me.  In September, on the 25th

17     September when this document was passed or perhaps even -- even the 7th

18     of September, 1991, and this document refers to that date, had ARK

19     already functioned?

20        A.   In 1991?

21        Q.   Yes, 1991.  Was it set up before, did it function?

22        A.   I believe that it was sometime at the end of August or the

23     beginning of September the Assembly of Republika Srpska abolished

24     regions.  It is not that I believe that.  I'm sure of that.  It was

25     either in Doboj or Bijeljina.  It was sooner in Bijeljina.  But in any

Page 29828

 1     case, from then onwards, the regions no longer existed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Just to avoid confusion in the record, if we could

 4     get a time-period for the -- specifically a year for the answer that the

 5     witness has just given.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You heard my learned friend, Mr. Traldi.

 8        A.   I said that it was in 1991 either at the end of August or

 9     beginning of September.  That's when the regions disappeared, i.e., the

10     Assembly of Republika Srpska abolished those regions sometime around that

11     time, but I can't remember the exact date.

12        Q.   When we discussed D853, which is the transcript of the founding

13     Assembly of ARK, it is not clear from the document when that assembly

14     meeting took place.  However, on page 29665 of our transcript to a

15     question put to you by Judge Orie on line 5, you answered that that

16     meeting was held on the 24th April 1991.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what is your question?

18             MR. LUKIC:  My question is -- we have to see the next document,

19     which is 65 ter 16110.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] In this document, dated 14 May 1992, which is

21     the minutes of the 2nd Session of the Assembly of the Association of

22     Bosnian Krajina, that precedes the SAO founding document by approximately

23     three months.  We can see that ARK is functioning.  My question is this:

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I object to the characterisation.  It's quite clear

Page 29829

 1     we're conflating the ZOBK and the ARK in the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is there any --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  That was my next question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, but the objection is that in the introduction

 5     to this question, you're mixing up matters.  Could you either demonstrate

 6     that you are not or rephrase your question.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, when did the Association of the

 9     Municipality of Bosanska Krajina become a region?  Did the same people

10     continue to work in it?

11        A.   I believe that it was sometime in August, but I'm not sure.  It

12     may have been that I am not telling the truth.  The same bodies continued

13     to exist.  Why they changed the name?  Because of the attribute or the

14     region with the Serbian attribute had already been set up, the Serbian

15     SAO, we had the Serbian Autonomous Region.  In order to avoid the

16     attribute "Serbian" and for all the people who resided in that area to be

17     calmer and to feel better, to have a region belong to all of us.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When you said August, what year were you referring

19     to?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps 1991; but, again, I'm not

21     sure.  If I make a mistake it's not intentional.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Just one more question before we break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have just one more question, yes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29830

 1        Q.   Was that before the war?

 2        A.   Of course, of course.  Much before the war.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's time for our next break.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes when you said that you would have one more

 6     question, it was just before the break and not in your re-examination.

 7             Could you give us an indication as to how much time you would

 8     still need?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  You know that Mr. Traldi always makes us work a lot.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you trigger that yourself as well, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  But I have to cover many documents, and I think that

12     there were conflicting evidence and conflicting statements, and I have to

13     clarify many, many things with this witness.  I tried to object at some

14     points.  Some points I didn't even object.  But I'll have to cover many

15     topics.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll consider that.  We'll --

17             Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  One brief matter before the break, but we don't need

19     the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't need the witness.  Then could the witness

21     be escorted out of the courtroom.

22             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Kupresanin.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             MR. TRALDI:  Just in light of some of the questions early on in

25     redirect, we have reviewed the transcript of the interview and I'd direct

Page 29831

 1     Mr. Lukic's attention to pages 74 and 75 where Mr. Kupresanin was

 2     directly informed that it was in the context of the Brdjanin and Talic

 3     investigation.  We will seek to have that included as part of the

 4     selection of pages from P6994 when we eventually make a selection to

 5     propose for admission.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Well, it's at the end, actually, or in the middle

 8     of this.  Not at the beginning.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  It's the end in the English.  And, sorry, it will be

10     at the end in both languages.  I just don't have the B/C/S page number

11     ready to hand.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll take a break, and we will resume

13     at 20 minutes to 2.00.

14             Mr. Stojanovic has an issue to raise.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a very practical

16     issue.  Can we instruct the next witness to go back to the hotel or to

17     stay here and wait?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Having listened to Mr. Lukic, there's no -- there's

19     no reason for him to wait because I do understand that there's no way

20     that he would start giving his testimony today, assuming that the Chamber

21     follows you.  Well, whatever time you would need, the Chamber would like

22     to instruct the -- in this case, the Defence, that the witness should not

23     remain stand by for today.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter

Page 29832

 1     to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 5     the courtroom, I'd like to put clearly on the record what triggered the

 6     removal of Mr. Mladic from the courtroom.

 7             When the witness, although not triggered by the question,

 8     expressed himself, among other matters, that the Serbian people has

 9     reason to be grateful to the general, referring to General Mladic, he --

10     the accused started applauding aloud and that was the reason for the

11     Chamber to remove him from the courtroom.  He has been instructed several

12     times not to intervene in whatever way with the testimony of witnesses.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Lukic will now continue his

15     re-examination.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And before I continue, I

18     would just kindly ask to make correction on the page 78, line 15, it was

19     in connection with my question.  The year mentioned is 1992 and should be

20     1991, but I think that everybody understood about which document I was

21     speaking since we had it on our screens.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, now I'm going to ask you about

25     P77001B [as interpreted] this is a Prosecutor's document.  It is a

Page 29833

 1     video-clip in which Smiljko Sagolj reports --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should repeat the number.  I think we are not

 3     up to 77001.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Huh?  I don't -- okay.  It's P7001 [Interpretation]

 5     It's P7001.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say P7001B?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We have the document before us.  It says in the document that

11     Mr. Radovan Karadzic said:

12             "We no longer have no obligations towards the constitution of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina but towards the constitution of Yugoslavia which

14     guarantees our right to self-determination and self-organising for the

15     people."

16             This is a report on the plebiscite of the Serbian people in

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Do you remember whether before that date,

18     representatives of Muslims and Croats in the Assembly of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina passed a declaration of some sort contrary to the will

20     of the Serbian people and contrary to the constitution of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes, I remember that very well.  It -- the reasons and the terms

23     were not founded, and it was about the reason for the beginning of war in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  One reason was the Islamic declaration by

25     Alija Izetbegovic.  That was a political platform.  Every political party

Page 29834

 1     had its intentions and -- every political party had its intentions.  It

 2     is true of every political party which appears on the scene in any state.

 3     They have their objective and their platform, and from the platform of

 4     any political party you can tell exactly what they want.  The Serbian

 5     Democratic Party had its own platform or program.

 6        Q.   I apologise, I need to interrupt you now.  Did you ever hear of

 7     the declaration on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.  That was on the 14th October 1991 when a group of

 9     deputies, not all the deputies but only the Croatian and Muslim deputies,

10     sometime late in the night - after midnight, that is - together voted on

11     the declaration of -- on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They

12     did it on their own.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please slow down, sir.  Please slow down.  The

14     interpreters are struggling to keep pace with you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of October, 1991, in

16     the small hours of the night, after midnight, Croatian and Muslim

17     deputies unbeknownst to the Serbian deputies, met after midnight in the

18     building of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and passed this

19     declaration on sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20             By doing that, they breached the federal constitution, the

21     republican constitution --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we interrupt you for a second.  The events in

23     the assembly on the 14th and 15th October have been dealt with in quite

24     some detail.

25             Mr. Lukic, if there's anything which this witness would add to

Page 29835

 1     that, to what is already in evidence, you're invited to put focused

 2     questions to him, because it seems that to hear all what happened there

 3     again would result in repetitious evidence, and I think - I'm also

 4     looking at the Prosecution - that on the main factual part, that perhaps

 5     there's no great disagreement.  I am not talking about how it's

 6     appreciated.  But that's, of course, a different matter.

 7             Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] How did you personally perceive that declaration

10     on independence?

11        A.   The declaration on independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a

12     sovereign, integral, and indivisible state of Bosnia-Herzegovina first

13     humiliated all of us deputies in the assembly and the Serbian people as a

14     whole.  Second of all, it broke up Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And thirdly,

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina was left there without the Serbian people and the

16     territory where 62 per cent of the Serbian people resided.

17             The Serbian people established its own assembly to cover the

18     political interests of the Serbian people.  It organised protection for

19     the Serbian people and that's how Bosnia-Herzegovina imploded and was

20     split into the two entities that would later on be recognised by the

21     Dayton agreement.  The Serbian people is a constituent people of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, a state forming people.  There are three peoples in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina: Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.

24        Q.   Thank you.  As a deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, after the passing of that declaration of independence by the

Page 29836

 1     Muslim and Croatian deputies in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did

 2     you think or believe that it was possible to continue honouring

 3     commitments toward the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   At that moment Bosnia-Herzegovina imploded.  The constitution was

 5     made null and void.  For the declaration to be passed, two thirds of a

 6     majority in Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly had to vote in favour.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness slow down.  Could the witness

 8     please repeat the figures again.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are again invited to slow down because

10     the interpreters cannot follow you.  Could you re-start.  You said

11     two-thirds of a majority in Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly had to vote in

12     favour.  And could you resume from there, when you mentioned apparently

13     numbers.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the parliament of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina had 240 members.  There were 84 Serb assemblymen, if

16     there were fewer of us, 80 or 79, then the constitution of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been honoured.  As things stood

18     tendentiously and under the influence of the international community,

19     they did what they did.  Bosnia-Herzegovina thus was destroyed through

20     the constitution and after that it has never become united.  That's why

21     we had two entities and the Serbian people still need to find their own

22     space in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23             And I believe that that was not done only by Bosnia-Herzegovina

24     on its own.  It was done under the pressure of the international

25     community.  In December 1991, the Holy City --

Page 29837

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, first of all, your question and how the

 2     witness perceived all that, and he moves away, far away, from what the

 3     question is.  So please try to put as focused questions as you can and

 4     stop the witness immediately once he moves away from your question.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  My impression was that now are you.  You took over

 6     from me.  And I didn't want to interrupt.  But I will.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked him to re-start his answer at the request of

 8     the interpreters, so if -- this is certainly not to be understood as

 9     taking over.  But I should think about my reputation in this respect.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             [Interpretation] I'll move onto another document.  Can we please

13     have P7005.

14        Q.   In order to make a link between the declaration of independence

15     and the referendum I am about to ask you, tell us please what happened in

16     December 1991?  What were you trying to tell us, but briefly, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, the question is leading.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  The witness started to tell us something --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You said in order to make a link between this and

22     that, and that is leading because that suggests that --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I'll leave December.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a link does exist.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I will leave December completely so.

Page 29838

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  So let's go to the end of February and the beginning

 3     of March 1992.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But don't give the context in which the

 5     witness has to link matters together.

 6             But, meanwhile, I use the opportunity.  I understood that the

 7     microphone in the English booth was replaced but we have a similar sound

 8     now.  So could our technicians either find another microphone or do

 9     something else to fix it.

10             Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Before us is the stenographic record of the

13     8th Session of the SN, which probably stands for the Serbian people,

14     dated 25th of February, 1992.

15             As regards evidence in this case, it happened four days before

16     the referendum.  Do you know when the referendum on the independence of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina took place?

18        A.   I think it was in September although I don't recall exactly.  In

19     any case, in 1991.

20        Q.   You were told -- do you agree -- as a matter of fact, maybe I

21     should start my question like this:  According to what you know at that

22     time you were a deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Did the

23     Muslim and Croatian representatives in the assembly know, were they

24     informed that the Serbs were opposed to the referendum on the

25     independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 29839

 1        A.   Yes, they knew.  But irrespective of that, I wanted to return to

 2     what I initially wanted to say.  It wasn't the Serb, Bosniaks, and Croats

 3     who started the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you're supposed to answer a

 5     question and not to say this is my answer, and now I'll continue what I

 6     want to tell you.  You're here to answer questions.

 7             Mr. Lukic, your next question, please.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   In this document you were quoted as having said the following.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 60 in the B/C/S and 75

11     in the English.

12        Q.   As you can see, you have the B/C/S version in front of you that

13     you can follow.  Actually, this is not the page.  My notes about the

14     pagination must be wrong.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is Mr. Traldi in any way in a position to assist.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It depends if you wanted to have the English page

17     on the screen.  If that is the right one, then B/C/S is wrong.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in English, it's page 75 out of 77, which

19     suggests that you should, in B/C/S, try to find in the very last few

20     pages, and it's 95 pages all together, and ... unless it's ...

21             Could it be page 93 where I see Mr. Kupresanin mentioned at least

22     in the B/C/S original.

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, I have wrong page numbers, I really apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But is it not the one on our screen now, 93?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No.

Page 29840

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not the one.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But it -- unless the two documents are not

 4     completely translated, if it is two pages from the finish in English,

 5     then it should not be more than two or three pages from the end in --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  The whole day we have a problem with electronics and

 7     it's not working again so I cannot check it.  We tried to solve it during

 8     the break but I'm --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you had two different pages on the

11     screen.  Were you looking for the B/C/S one which was on the screen or

12     the English one which was one the screen previously.  You asked for

13     page 60 in B/C/S.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that the right one?

16             MR. LUKIC:  None of these pages.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  None of these pages?  Then you should --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Both English and B/C/S are wrong.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I can't assist you.  Then you have to --

21             MR. LUKIC:  But thank you anyways.  If we can have P7006, please.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] You were asked about this document.  It is an

23     excerpt from the minutes of the 14th Session of the ARK Assembly.

24             My learned friend Mr. Traldi asked you, at page 29740 of our

25     transcript -- well, I believe it requires further explanation, but I'll

Page 29841

 1     read out my colleagues question in English so that it is interpreted for

 2     you.  It is in line 13 and 14 of page 29740.  [In English] I quote:

 3             "Now, in the days between the 25th and the 29th of February, the

 4     constitution had been promulgated; right?"

 5        A.   Precisely.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] You were shown this document regarding the

 7     issue.

 8             In your replies, on page 29742, line 13, you said:

 9             [In English] "Only Assembly of Republika Srpska could adopt such

10     constitution."

11             [Interpretation] And at page 29743, line 7, you said:

12             [In English] "I would not be a position to sign a document

13     adopting the republican constitution."

14             [Interpretation] In this document --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we require the next page, in both

16     versions, that is to say, the conclusions.

17        Q.   In item 1, we read the following:

18             "The deputies of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

19     fully accepted the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

21             You said that you were not in a position to put a constitution

22     into force and that is normal.  We had a judge participate in that

23     discussion agreed, and he said that he was asking about facts.

24             Do you recall - if you don't, just say so - why was it necessary

25     for the ARK Assembly to fully accept the constitution of the Assembly of

Page 29842

 1     the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   I don't recall that.  I am a bit embarrassed.  The constitution

 3     in the Assembly of Republika Srpska and the MPs who were invited to

 4     establish the state were asked to put a constitution into force.  They

 5     were not duty-bound -- well, they could assume a position given the fact

 6     that they had previously read the constitution and they were familiar

 7     with the subject matter, then they could perhaps decide.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Decide what?

10             MR. LUKIC:  It's the end of our working day and I'm finished with

11     this topic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us:  They could decide, they

13     could decide what?

14             Witness, yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, what am I supposed to do?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said that they could assume a position,

17     having read the constitution, and they were familiar with the subject

18     matter, and then "they could perhaps decide."

19             Decide what, or decide on what?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not decide.  I was

21     referring to those who can enact a constitution and who is familiar with

22     it.  As for the assembly of the region, I don't know what kind of

23     decision they could make and they did not.  They had nothing to do with

24     that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, I'm puzzled by the fact that in your

Page 29843

 1     previous answer you said "then they could perhaps decide."  So you

 2     consider it there possible.  But now you say it's -- you don't know what

 3     kind of a decision they could make.  That's still puzzling.

 4             But we adjourn for the day.

 5             Mr. Lukic, any time estimate for tomorrow, assuming that e-court

 6     is functioning?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid a bit more than first session.  Because I

10     just covered Thursday and I have to cover today's day.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, this is -- let's further discuss this because

12     you know that the number of --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I will try because we are in a rush with the next

14     witness, he has to leave, and I will try to cut it down as much as

15     possible.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll wait and see.

17             Mr. Kupresanin, we'll conclude your testimony tomorrow but we'll

18     adjourn now for the day.  I'd like to instruct you again - as I did last

19     Thursday - that you should not communicate in whatever way, with whomever

20     about your testimony, whether already given or still to be given.

21             You may follow the usher.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow

22     morning at 9.30.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 16th of

25     December, 9.30 in the morning same courtroom, I.

Page 29844

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

 3                           December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.