1 Monday, 15 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we ask the witness to be escorted into the courtroom, I
11 would like to briefly move into private session for two minutes only.
12 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I also do understand that the Prosecution would like
8 to raise a matter in relation to the revised translation of P6857 -- 6 --
9 yes, 685 -- 57.
10 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. And this is an intercept that was
11 shown to Witness Kralj on 28 October 2014. The revised English
12 translation has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 050471631ET. The
13 Prosecution has spoken with the Defence and they agree to the revision.
14 We would request that the revised revision replace the one currently
15 there e-court.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles. The Registrar is instructed
17 to replace the existing translation for P6857 by a new translation
18 ID 050471631ET.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Zupljanin.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise, Mr. Kupresanin. Before we continue,
23 I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration
24 you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the
25 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 Mr. Traldi, if you're ready you may continue your
3 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 WITNESS: VOJO KUPRESANIN [Resumed]
5 [Witness testified through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, sir.
8 A. Good morning, good morning.
9 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 31775.
10 Q. And, sir, I want to focus now on your evidence about the
11 relationship between the ARK and the central authorities in Pale.
12 Now this is an extract from the minutes of the 10th Session of
13 the Assembly of the ARK at the assembly hall of the Banja Luka cultural
14 centre at 1000 hours on 14 December 1991, and we see this session was
15 chaired by yourself.
16 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 5 in the English and page 3 in
17 the B/C/S.
18 Q. We read at the top of the page in English and middle of the page
19 in the B/C/S:
20 "The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina supports the
21 integration of all Serbian territories and our representatives have been
22 legally elected: Radovan Karadzic, Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik,
23 and Vojo Kupresanin."
24 That correctly reflects the ARK Assembly's position as of
25 December 1991; right?
1 A. All the regions could be established in the territory of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the constitution. This is under article 4 of
3 the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was not my suggestion. It
4 was a trend which was --
5 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you. I haven't asked about the
6 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As of December 1991, the Assembly of
7 the ARK did, in fact, support the integration of all Serbian territories
8 and considered its representatives to include Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic,
9 Mr. Krajisnik, and yourself; correct?
10 A. Not correct.
11 Q. How do you explain that appears in the minutes of this session
12 that you presided over?
13 A. We supported the process, and it was not up to them.
14 Q. I'm not sure I understand your answer. As of -- as of the 14th
15 of December, 1991, it's clear that the ARK Assembly supported the
16 integration of Serb territories, yes or no?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And you also deny that, despite it being reflected in the
19 minutes, the ARK Assembly considers its legal representatives to include
20 Karadzic, Koljevic and Krajisnik?
21 A. Not correct. They were not legally elected representatives of
22 the Assembly of Krajina or the region of Krajina in any way when it came
23 to ARK Krajina. What did Karadzic have to do with the rest of us?
24 Q. Well, we'll look at that in a second.
25 MR. TRALDI: For the moment, I tender this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 31775 receives exhibit number
3 P7007, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
5 Mr. Traldi, could the witness explain why the literal reading of
6 these minutes, why they do not reflect what the position was? Because
7 Mr. Traldi just read out what is written here.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said what I thought about
9 that. He put a specific question, I provided a specific
10 question [as interpreted]. At least I think I did. It's his problem if
11 he is not happy with the answer. I -- in this document, I don't find any
12 other answer to that question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Traldi read to you what the minutes say
14 and then asked you whether it's correct or not. Your answer is it's not
15 correct. Then my question is --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then my question is why do then the minutes reflect
18 a position you say is not correct?
19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It says "excerpt."
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document in front of me --
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It says an excerpt from the minutes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's an excerpt, yes.
25 You say it's -- the excerpt is wrong.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell that this is -- these
2 are original minutes. There's no signature. There's no stamp. What is
3 this? Documents without any paper trail?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm listening.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are saying this excerpt, where
7 apparently have you some doubts where it comes, this excerpt does in the
8 reflect the position of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
9 Is that well understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have doubts about this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then one follow-up question.
12 These excerpt -- this excerpt says that Radovan Karadzic,
13 Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Vojo Kupresanin are legally
14 elected. Were you, the four of you, legally elected and elected to what
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was legally elected as a deputy
17 in the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was legally elected as a
18 member in the Assembly of Republika Srpska. I was legally elected as the
19 president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region. All those things
20 were legal. At that time Radovan Karadzic was the president of Serbian
21 Democratic Party, legally elected. Radovan Karadzic and the others did
22 not instruct us to make decisions at the Assembly of the Autonomous
23 Region. We were not duty-bound by their positions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P2720.
1 Q. Now, this is a intercepted conversation between yourself and
2 General Kukanjac, then the head of the 2nd Military District, in
3 April 1992.
4 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2 in the English and the top of page
5 3 in the B/C/S, we read in the middle of the page.
6 Q. You say:
7 "Well, we must and now we are waiting for Karadzic to return from
8 Europe and tell us what we are to do next. I personally think, General,
9 that I won't do anything until he returns, when he comes whatever he
10 tells us we will do. He is now for us the Supreme Commander and we have
11 no other commander. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on the one side,
12 and the Serb people in the situation they are in, on the other. We have
13 our commander, it is that man, we must obey him, you understand us, we
14 understand you."
15 Now, that man you are saying is your commander who you must obey
16 is President Karadzic; right?
17 MR. LUKIC: I'm --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I would ask my colleague to give the
20 time-frame of this document to the witness so he understands about which
21 time --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: April 1992.
23 MR. TRALDI: I did.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but it depends which month, heavily. For --
25 MR. TRALDI: I said the month of April, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Okay, sorry. I didn't hear it. Sorry. I apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's accepted.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. I'll repeat my question, sir. The man you are saying is your
6 Supreme Commander who you must obey is President Radovan Karadzic; right?
7 A. He was not the Supreme Commander. I may have put it that way.
8 He was only the president of the party, so he was not in a position to be
9 the Supreme Commander. However, we in the Serbian people who found
10 ourselves in such a position when the Yugoslav People's Army was
11 leaving --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there. When you are
13 referring to the Supreme Commander, were you referring to
14 Radovan Karadzic? That's the question. Or did you have anyone else on
15 your mind?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was head. He was not supreme
17 commander. He was head. That's how I would describe him.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I didn't ask you to describe his position.
19 I did ask you whether in this portion of this intercepted conversation,
20 whether you referred to Mr. Karadzic, did you or did you not? Whatever
21 his position was.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant him.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. You say in paragraph 34 of your statement, sir, that this
1 intercept shows you did not have contact with Karadzic and Pale. I'd put
2 to you that, in fact, what it shows is you're simply saying that he's in
3 Europe and you're just waiting for him to come back and give you your
4 marching orders; right?
5 A. I really can't remember where he was. Maybe he was in Europe.
6 He was probably there. I don't know how I found out where he was. It
7 was only logical for us to expect him to voice his opinion, his position,
8 because that's what Kukanjac had asked from us. I don't know what else I
9 could tell you. Why I would have I know where the president of the party
10 was at the time. I don't know where he was. Should I have known?
11 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you where he was at the time. What I put to
12 you, and I'll do it very clearly, is that your description of this
13 intercept in your statement is incorrect and what you are actually saying
14 is when he comes back, he will give you your marching orders and you must
15 obey them. That's what we see you saying; right?
16 A. He never issued any orders to us. Nor were we duty-bound to
17 carry out his orders. What I said, I said it --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, are you not answering the questions,
19 unfortunately. You again and again give your comments on what was said,
20 whereas what you are asked is to confirm what you said and what that
21 actually means; that is, wait until he's back and then we'll receive his
22 orders. Is that the gist of what you said here, or is there anything
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. Let it be that
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI: I'm done with this document now, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And it is -- I just have to check.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's in evidence already. Please proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Now, sir, one leader in the ARK who had close relations with Pale
8 was Mr. Brdjanin, the Crisis Staff president; right?
9 A. I don't think that he had close relations with Pale. Actually,
10 he was more in conflict with Pale than in close relations. That's my
11 personal opinion. Yes, yes, exactly. He very often clashed with Pale.
12 MR. TRALDI: Now, could we have 65 ter 31770.
13 Q. That's your OTP interview.
14 MR. TRALDI: And I'm looking for page 68 in the English and the
15 bottom of page 100 in the B/C/S. I think we still have page 1 in the
16 English. And we're looking for page 68.
17 Q. So you're asked here:
18 "Are you aware of Radoslav Brdjanin visiting areas outside
19 Banja Luka during 1992?"
20 You say:
22 And you're asked:
23 "He did not visit or are you not aware of his visits?"
24 And you respond:
25 "I don't know anything, whether he went or didn't go. We didn't
2 MR. TRALDI: And we'll turn to the next page in the B/C/S.
3 Q. "He had his own world. His people were the top, on the top."
4 When you said that, you were referring to the people at the top
5 of the structures of political authority in the Republika Srpska; right?
6 A. Yes, that was that. I don't know that he was very close with the
7 top of the tops at Pale. But Brdjanin was specific in the sense that
8 whenever he had an occasion to talk to the top echelons, he did and that
9 concerned co-operation between Pale and Banja Luka.
10 As a matter of fact, you're saying that he was a yes man or that
11 his only agenda was to forward his career. Yes, you may say that.
12 Q. So can I take it you confirm what you said in this portion of
13 your OTP interview?
14 A. I'm also aware of the other side and that was that he very often
15 clashed with Pale. I -- you had an intercept of a conversation between
16 Brdjanin, Karadzic, and myself, and Karadzic -- Brdjanin's name is always
17 mentioned as somebody who was disruptive.
18 Q. Well, let's look at one example of an intercept between Karadzic
19 and Brdjanin.
20 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P2636. 2636.
21 Q. Now --
22 MR. TRALDI: And I'm looking for page 2 in both languages. This
23 is an intercepted conversation between them in July 1991. And we can see
24 in both languages an underlined sentence that says:
25 "We have done the one today."
1 Looking just below that, we see Mr. Karadzic says:
2 "Nothing nothing have done, if you have brought decision on
3 referendum, it would have been terrible."
4 And Mr. Brdjanin responses:
5 "We have not, have not, we obeyed."
6 What we see here is he is confirming that he obeyed an order he'd
7 received from Mr. Karadzic and the authorities in Pale; right?
8 A. Please don't put me in situations where I can say only yes or no.
9 Could I be allowed to say something more about this referendum, just a
10 few sentences? I need to explain.
11 Q. First I'd ask that you answer my question, sir. What we see here
12 is Mr. Brdjanin confirming that he obeyed an order he received from
13 Mr. Karadzic and the authorities in Pale; right?
14 A. First of all, did he not obey it. That's why Radovan called him
15 and only then did he obey. So he did not obey. He caused confusion and
16 then he obeyed and made a mistake.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 08469. And that's been marked
18 for identification as P6997, pending a selection of material. And I'm
19 looking for page 53 in the English and middle of page 46 in the B/C/S.
20 Q. Sir, this is the session of the SDS on the 12th of July, 1991 at
21 which you were elected to the Main Board. And here we see a portion of
22 Mr. Brdjanin's remarks.
23 MR. TRALDI: And we're waiting for the B/C/S page.
24 Q. And we see below the note of applause, that he says:
25 "I personally think that regions strengthen the government in
1 Sarajevo. If anyone thinks different, they who interpret it differently
2 surely are trying to con our greatest leadership."
3 "I am a man who abides by two principles: I obey and respect
4 those who are above me, all those who are under my command must obey me."
5 So what we see here, again, is Mr. Brdjanin confirming that he
6 believes he has the obligation to obey and respect those above him, the
7 leadership of the SDS; right?
8 A. It turns how that was his rule. Those were above him, he obeyed
9 them, and he demanded to be obeyed from those below him. That was his
10 life philosophy. That's how things were.
11 Q. Separate from his relationship with the ARK,
12 President Karadzic --
13 MR. TRALDI: And I'm done with this document, Your Honours.
14 Q. -- also had control through the political chain of command of the
15 presidents of municipal governments; right?
16 A. Political control? Probably he did have an impact on the conduct
17 and all the political relations in the Serbian Democratic Party in
18 municipalities. It was only logical that it followed the work of the
19 Serbian Democratic Party in municipalities. Municipalities as
20 municipalities were in certain a way states in a state. I was the
21 president of Krajina, and I did not have any control over any
22 municipality. The statute of the region did not present any particular
23 positions with regard to the presidents of the municipalities.
24 Q. Sir, you've again gone beyond the question I asked to your
25 relationship with municipalities. What I'm asking you to confirm, and I
1 believe you had, is President Karadzic having control of the presidents
2 of municipal governments. And we'll get to the relationship between the
3 ARK and the municipalities in a moment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Traldi, you mean political control.
5 MR. TRALDI: Political control, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. So I do want to look at one policy example.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31771.
11 Q. This will be a transcript of an intercepted conversations between
12 Radovan Karadzic and Radislav Vukic dated the 27th of September, 1991.
13 As it comes up, in paragraph 22 of your statement you suggest
14 that in November 1991 you insisted in the ARK Assembly that
15 representatives of the SDA, HDZ, and SDP who were in managerial positions
16 should be replaced and Dr. Karadzic opposed that.
17 Now Mr. Vukic, who he's speaking with here, is one of the other
18 political leaders in the ARK; right?
19 A. He was no political leader of the ARK. He was simply a municipal
20 president of the SDS in Banja Luka. Deputies in the assembly wielded
21 more influence than Vukic. He could not influence our work. And when I
22 say that, I mean the decisions of the district assembly or similar
23 things. Vukic could not exert any influence over our work. I don't know
24 whether he tried, but he certainly did not have any influence.
25 Q. Well, turning to page 2 in the English and the bottom of page 2
1 in the B/C/S, Dr. Karadzic asks:
2 "In whose hands is Radio Banja Luka?"
3 And Vukic responds:
4 "I beg your pardon?"
5 Karadzic asks again:
6 "In whose hands is Radio Banja Luka?
7 MR. TRALDI: Turning to the next page in the B/C/S.
8 Q. Vukic responds:
9 "A Muslim is a director."
10 Karadzic responds:
11 "What the fuck?"
12 And Vukic says:
13 "Shall I replace him straight away, let him go to fucking hell?
14 And Karadzic says:
15 "Come on, replace him immediately. Appoint a man of yours.
16 These are war times. Appoint -- if he is not listening to you, appoint a
17 man of yours."
18 So what we see here is that Dr. Karadzic's position, in fact, was
19 that the Muslim director of Radio Banja Luka should be replaced
20 immediately; right?
21 A. First of all, a Muslim was not a director of Radio Banja Luka.
22 It was Mrs. Bozic. However, the IT centre head of Banja Luka RTV was
23 Mr. Smajic. Now, what his exact position in the IT centre in Banja Luka
24 is something I don't remember. I do remember him well. He was not
25 removed until Rajko Vasic came along who was the head of the radio and
1 television company. So it wasn't a Muslim who was the director of
2 Radio Banja Luka. It was Mrs. Bozic. It was a mistake. I may have had
3 Smajic in mind at the IT centre.
4 As for this conversation, I don't know. Well, he did ask for
5 assistance and Radovan supported him. That is obvious. Although we, in
6 the Krajina, did not think along those lines. I know about Smajic no one
7 removed him and he simply left Banja Luka perhaps a year after these
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 31771.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31771 receives exhibit number P7008,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 Witness, by giving your own recollection of the events, you are
15 moving away from what you were asked. You were asked whether Karadzic
16 here - and that seems to be the language he uses - whether Karadzic was
17 instructing or ordering to replace a person whose name is not even
18 mentioned but who was a Muslim and to be replaced immediately.
19 Now whether that happened and who it was is a different matter,
20 but you again and again are moving away from what Mr. Traldi is asking
21 you. Mr. Traldi is asking you whether hearing this, seeing this, whether
22 this is what it looks like, that it's such an instruction was given.
23 Whether it was followed up is a different matter. Who it was is also
24 another question. But the question by Mr. Traldi simply was: Is
25 Mr. Karadzic here giving a clear instruction that a Muslim, he was told
1 was the director, should be replaced.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. A simple yes in the beginning would have
4 saved a lot of time.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just say something. According to this
7 intercept here, sir, Ms. Bozic who you say was -- in whose hands you say
8 the radio was, is mentioned just below there as the main editor, not the
9 person in whose hands the TV station was. Do you have any comment on
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I'm not sure what she was.
12 I just know that she was the main person on the radio.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So what you said earlier, you are not sure of.
14 You are just guessing when you said she was the person in whose hands the
15 radio was? Her position is being explained here in this intercept. She
16 is the main editor. I see you pull your lips. You're not answering --
17 [Microphone not activated].
18 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31768.
19 Q. As it comes up, sir, a moment ago you said we in the Krajina did
20 not think along those lines. In fact, the ARK authorities, including the
21 Crisis Staff, issued decisions on the dismissal of non-Serbs from a
22 number of positions in 1992; right?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 65 ter you called has not been recorded.
24 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, 31768 and I see we do have it on the screen.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 MR. TRALDI: So, sir, before we get to the document, I'll repeat
2 my question. The ARK authorities, including the ARK Crisis Staff, issued
3 decisions on the dismissal of non-Serbs from a number of positions in
4 1992; right.
5 A. Please do not make this link between us and the Crisis Staff. We
6 did not establish it. The ARK Crisis Staff was probably an operations
7 body of the government of RS. We did not create it. We did not
8 influence its conclusions or their implementation.
9 Q. Sir --
10 A. The Crisis Staff of the ARK did not have --
11 Q. You were a member of that Crisis Staff; right?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And, yes or no, it did issue decisions on the removal of
14 non-Serbs from particular positions in 1992.
15 A. It was one of the conclusions of the Crisis Staff, to have people
16 in key positions in publicly owned enterprises who were not members of
17 the SDS - I'll say it again, who were not members of the SDS - should be
18 replaced by members of the SDS. It was a rule across all of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the political arena. The SDS removed all public
20 enterprise directors who were not members of the SDS. It was a rule, and
21 it was accepted. Now why would that be a sin? Even before that, people
22 were being removed, before this decision of the Crisis Staff.
23 Q. Do you -- sir --
24 A. The Crisis Staff could not --
25 Q. Do you recall who made that rule?
1 A. Who made that rule? Well, there were elections before that. At
2 the time there was still the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 After the elections we gained power.
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. And it a rule that the party in power has influence over key
6 positions and it is also regulated by law.
7 Q. Well, let's look at this document. This is a decision by the
8 Serb municipality of Doboj. It's being sent to the Ministry of Justice
9 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it's dated the 24th
10 June 1992.
11 Directing your attention to the bottom of the page, we can see
12 that it reflects a proposal by yourself as president of the ARK, and
13 is -- is also signed by Municipal President, Drago Ljubican. What we see
14 in this document is a proposal that three men be replaced as public
15 prosecutors in Doboj and three other men be appointed. And at point 4 we
17 "Also, pursuant to Articles 1 and 2 of the decision by the Crisis
18 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, which stipulate that every
19 high-level post within state institutions may be filled solely by staff
20 of Serbian ethnicity alone ..."
21 And then it shows who is being proposed to be removed.
22 So this is an implementation of the ARK Crisis Staff decision on
23 dismissing non-Serbs from high positions; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the three names of the men to be dismissed: Midhat
1 Demirovic, son of Abdurahman; and Senad Serement, son of Ibrahim. Those
2 are Muslims; right?
3 A. Yes. But how come my signature is on this document when the
4 ARK Assembly never engaged in removing or appointing any personnel? How
5 could I have ordered this when it was within the remit of the Crisis
6 Staff? What would the Autonomous District have to do with this? I never
7 issued such decisions and I did not influence any personnel issues. I
8 did not even appoint any directors, let alone judges or prosecutors. How
9 come my name appears on this document? It is unclear to me.
10 Q. I -- sir --
11 A. The Crisis Staff did that.
12 Q. And I just have one more question on the document. Anto Pekez,
13 son of Stipo, that's a Croat name; right?
14 A. Yes probably.
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31768.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we decide on that.
17 Witness, do you say this is not my signature or it -- it's not
18 fully understood why it is there? What's your position?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am trying to say that the removal
20 of personnel in the judiciary --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, Witness, Witness, would you please answer my
22 question. My question is not whether it was your competence or not.
23 That may be a follow-up question. My question is where you say what does
24 my signature do on this document, are you saying it's not your signature
25 or do you say, Well, there must be -- I still do not understand why it is
1 there. Which of the two?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to say that this is a
3 precedent of sorts. I've never engaged in such matters.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But the question was not whether you engaged in such
5 matters before but whether you recognise this to be your signature.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And then you have explained that it's odd that it is
8 there, but at the same time you acknowledge for a fact that it is your
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never dealt with this. That is
11 why I am doubtful about it all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: I maintain my request to tender the document,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 31768 receives exhibit number
19 P7009, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P7009 is admitted.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. And, sir, the Chamber has received evidence that the decision on
23 dismissals was also implemented in Prijedor municipality. That's true,
24 isn't it? The municipalities would implement decisions by the ARK Crisis
25 Staff, such as this decision on dismissing non-Serbs?
1 A. First of all, Prijedor municipality was not in the district. As
2 of the municipalities -- in terms of municipalities who joined the
3 district, Prijedor was not one of them. So the Crisis Staff could not
4 can exert any influence over personnel policy in the municipality of
5 Prijedor, I wonder.
6 Q. Well, let's look at the documents, then.
7 MR. TRALDI: Could we have Exhibit P6948.
8 Q. At page 1 here, we see here the ARK Crisis Staff decision that
9 was referred to in the Doboj document we just saw. We see it's dated the
10 22nd of June 1992.
11 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2, in both languages -- sorry, 3 in
12 the B/C/S.
13 Q. We see a version of this document bearing the handwritten note
14 for immediate delivery to the president of the municipality Crisis Staff.
15 MR. TRALDI: Now turning to page 3 in the English and I believe
16 it's page 5 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. We see a signed, stamped document emanating from the Crisis Staff
18 of Prijedor municipality deciding that it should forward the decision of
19 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina for implementation.
20 So, in fact, the Prijedor Crisis Staff implemented this decision; right?
21 A. I don't think so. No decision of the Autonomous Region Crisis
22 Staff was binding on any municipality. It was only a suggestions. Had
23 it been binding, it would have carried sanctions with it. Not one were
24 binding. They were suggestions. Had Prijedor refused to implement this
25 instruction by the Crisis Staff, nothing would have happened. That is
1 why I think you're wrong.
2 Q. Well, first I'd put to you --
3 MR. TRALDI: And if we could go back to page 1, both languages.
4 Q. I want to put to you two points about this. First, it's called a
5 decision, not a suggestion; correct? Yes or no.
6 A. Well, yes, perhaps it was a conclusion of the Crisis Staff. I
7 don't know whether it was a proposal or a decision. Crisis Staff had
8 conclusions and they wanted them implemented. This may have been
9 accompanied by a conclusion. Now as for Prijedor, I doubt they
10 implemented it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you said it was just a suggestion.
12 Mr. Traldi asks you whether this document says it's a suggestion or a
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read the document.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, you only need to read one word, top centre of the page. Can
18 you read out that word for us?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the witness is allowed to read --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read it. I read it. It says
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Traldi, if the witness wants to read it, it may be denied
24 half way that it's not really a decision. Or whatever comes, he's
25 entitled to do that and you should not tell him that he only should look
1 at one word. Whether it finally would support any other conclusion is a
2 different matter, but if the witness says I haven't read it, then you
3 should not instruct him just to read one word where you put the whole of
4 the document to him.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, discussing the whole of document, do you agree with me that
8 point 4 also refers to this as a decision which shall enter into force?
9 A. A Crisis Staff decision cannot be binding on anyone or be into
10 force. How could it be when the Crisis Staff has no power of sanction?
11 It was an operations RS government organ for crisis situations. This was
12 a crisis situation. However, it was not binding on the leadership of
13 Prijedor municipality to implement it. The Crisis Staff could not do
14 that. So it was a non-binding decision.
15 Q. I take it we all agree this is referred to as a decision that
16 shall enter into force.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31770, page 33 in the English
18 and 46 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. This will be another part of your OTP interview. You were asked
20 here did Brdjanin give orders to presidents of municipalities about what
21 he wanted carried out, and you responded:
22 "Well, you see, I asked myself that question. Certain things
23 happened in Krajina. I'm interested to what extent was the ARK Crisis
24 Staff connected to the peripheral."
25 You were asked if you mean municipal Crisis Staffs, and you say:
1 "Yes, yes. That is a great mystery for me."
2 How is it that when, in 2001, when your recollection was fresher,
3 as you testified on Thursday, you claimed it was a mystery to you to what
4 extent the ARK Crisis Staff was connected to the municipal Crisis Staffs,
5 and today you claim that you are quite sure of its relationship with the
6 municipal Crisis Staffs and you are minimizing that relationship?
7 A. I'm not minimizing anything. I know what the Crisis Staff was
8 and what its role was. I know what their possibilities were. I know to
9 what extent their proposals could be implemented. Their powers were
10 limited under the law.
11 There's something that confuses me in what you said. We did have
12 an ARK Crisis Staff but not a Banja Luka Crisis Staff, so it is my
13 impression that the Banja Luka Crisis Staff moved up to the level of ARK
14 Crisis Staff. First of all, no one from the Krajina sitting on that
15 staff was from the Krajina itself. Everyone was from Banja Luka only.
16 Nobody from Drvar, Petrovac, or Srbac. Everyone in the ARK Crisis Staff
17 was from Banja Luka. They were residents of Banja Luka. It is my
18 impression that sometimes the roles were reversed.
19 Q. Sir, where were you from?
20 A. I do hail from Srbac by I worked in Banja Luka; hence, I did not
21 represent Srbac municipality. It had its own representative and he was
22 perhaps the only one who came from time to time. The rest did not.
23 Q. In fact --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
25 his last sentence. It was inaudible.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. You're being asked to repeat your last sentence, sir.
3 A. Members of the ARK Crisis Staff were not people from the region.
4 They were all from Banja Luka. The Banja Luka Crisis Staff was never set
5 up, and I wonder why it was not when the government instructed that
6 Crisis Staff municipal staffs be established. They did not say that a
7 regional Crisis Staff had to be established.
8 Q. Sir --
9 A. So the Banja Luka Crisis Staff took over the role for the entire
11 Q. A very specific question: Who was the Srbac representative you
12 had in mind a moment ago?
13 A. Milos Milincic, president of the municipality. He was a guest.
14 Q. Now, he testified here a month ago and he testified that
15 presidents of the various municipalities were by their function members
16 of the ARK Crisis Staff. That's, in fact, the truth; right?
17 A. No. Their first and last names of the people who comprised the
18 ARK Crisis Staff. There were between 10 and 15. It is clear who was
19 there but nobody was from the district. Everyone was from Banja Luka.
20 The roles were turned. Who ordered the establishment of the ARK Crisis
21 Staff, I have never received such a document from the government.
22 Q. Sir, again you've gone well beyond my question. Milorad Sajic
23 similarly testified last week that every Monday the presidents of and
24 representatives from various ARK municipalities would come to Banja Luka
25 every Monday and meet with the ARK Crisis Staff. You're aware of that
1 too; right?
2 A. No. I occasionally attended the sessions of the Crisis Staff and
3 I basically never saw some people from the Autonomous Region. I don't
4 remember seeing anyone. The 10 or 15 people were members of the Crisis
5 Staff of the region, including General Talic, but I never saw anyone from
6 Drvar or Celinac, from any municipality of the regions at the sessions of
7 the Crisis Staff.
8 Q. Sir --
9 A. Every municipality --
10 Q. Mr. Brdjanin was from Celinac; right?
11 A. Well, Mr. Brdjanin was in Banja Luka working for the Ministry of
12 Urban Planning. Had nothing to do with Celinac. They had their own
13 president of the municipality who came, Sveto Kovacevic. They had their
14 own Crisis Staff. Every municipality did. But Banja Luka did not have
15 one. Hence, it is confusing. How come there were people from Banja Luka
16 in the ARK Crisis Staff, whereas where there was no Banja Luka
17 Crisis Staff, and yet the government ordered the establishment of a
18 Crisis Staff in the municipality.
19 So people from the city were in the ARK staff. It was confusing
20 for me then when I provided the statement and it is still confusing.
21 There were things happening that were done in an underhanded way.
22 Q. Sir, I see we're almost at the time for the break. Before we get
23 there, I'd put to you that based on your own evidence you simply do not
24 know the extent of the relationship between the ARK Crisis Staff and the
25 municipal Crisis Staffs. That's what's come out from your various
1 answers; right?
2 A. I told you that the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff were not
3 binding on the municipalities in the periphery or in the region because
4 there were no sanctions. They could and they didn't need to. Some did,
5 some did not. So they were not binding. That is my response.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we take that break.
7 Witness, you said, and -- let me find it. Yes. When asked about
8 Mr. Brdjanin you said he was working in Banja Luka, he had got nothing to
9 with Celinac. They had their own president of the municipality who came.
10 He came where?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He could come if there was need.
12 But he had his own Crisis Staff.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're changing from one line to another.
14 You said he came, not he could come. But you said he came. Came where?
15 Is that the meeting of the -- is that the meeting of the ARK Crisis
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He could have come. But as I
18 said, I never saw any municipal president at the Crisis Staff. I never
19 saw any of them there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say he could come, you said he came, and
21 you say I never saw him there.
22 Okay. That's -- we have to evaluate that evidence and all the
23 other evidence we received on this matter.
24 Mr. Traldi, any further questions before the break or not --
25 MR. TRALDI: Not before the break.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break.
2 Mr. Kupresanin, we take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see
3 you back after that.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, two brief matters before the break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TRALDI: First, I'd seek to add this page to P6994, MFI, once
8 portions are selected to be admitted.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. TRALDI: And second, just to correct myself a moment ago, I
11 believe I said I said Mr. Sajic testified last week. I believe it's now
12 the week before last.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in a new week now, yes, Mr. Traldi.
14 We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, waiting for the witness to come in.
18 I'm addressing parties now about the scheduling of early next
20 Mr. Lukic, we received a message that you would have one witness
21 available for the week where you more or less you requested not to sit.
22 Of course we do not know whether it's the -- whether there are any chance
23 that others would come as well. We also have -- are considering whether
24 you would prefer, if there would be only one witness, and we're still in
25 a -- the phase of considering matters, whether it would help you out if
1 we would sit five days the week after that but then not to sit that one
2 week and use the fifth day, if you would be able to conclude the evidence
3 of that witness during one day, and if that would also be a possibility
4 for the Prosecution then to give you an option. But, again, we -- of
5 course, we first like to have more witnesses. But if it was just that
6 one witness, whether it would be an option to -- to hear the evidence of
7 that witness in one day and then to skip that week.
8 MR. LUKIC: I was more hopeful before, Your Honours, when I told
9 you that we are still trying to get more witnesses for that week.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: But I think where we stand now is that we can have
12 only have that one, and we -- if Your Honours decide that way, we would
13 accept your proposition to sit five days the next week. It would be --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least --
15 MR. LUKIC: -- preferable.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are --
17 MR. LUKIC: I didn't even think about it but it would be --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: -- excellent --
20 JUDGE ORIE: We are considering it.
21 MR. LUKIC: -- [overlapping speakers].
22 JUDGE ORIE: And, of course, one of the issues would be whether
23 it would fit into one day and that depends also on the time for
24 cross-examination needed.
25 I just raised it with you so that you can think about and we'd
1 like to hear any further responses later today.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, we'll now continue the -- to hear
4 your evidence in cross-examination.
5 May I draw your attention to one thing which seems to brother you
6 and may brother others as well. It is that you are often telling us
7 whether things could have happened or whether they should have happened,
8 whereas it seems that Mr. Traldi is mainly focusing on one what he, at
9 least on the basis of documentation, thinks -- thinks has happened.
10 Now, there is a clear distinction between what happens.
11 Sometimes even things are happening that could not happen if everything
12 would be in accordance with all the rules and -- and there's another
13 option that perhaps that things should not have happened. But
14 Mr. Traldi, again and again, is asking you on what he thinks happened,
15 looking at the documents, such as that there was a decision, because he
16 reads there is a decision, whereas you're explaining that there could not
17 be a decision or at least there should not have been a decision. Let's
18 try to distinguish those very clearly and first answer his questions
19 about what he sees in the documents that has happened.
20 Could you clearly make that distinction in trying to first focus
21 your answer on what is asked.
22 Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Sir, I'm go doing ask you a few question you now about
25 Mr. Brdjanin.
1 Now other people told you that they had heard Mr. Brdjanin say on
2 television that only a thousand Muslims could stay in Banja Luka; right?
3 A. That's not what I heard. What I heard on TV was that --
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. -- the B and H television one day asked him about what happened
6 in Banja Luka --
7 Q. Finish your sentence.
8 A. Journalists in Banja Luka asked him how desirable it would be if
9 the Muslims came back, and then he said one -- he gave a percentage. I
10 don't remember the percentage. What I know about his statement has to do
11 with the potential number of people who should return to Banja Luka, but
12 what I say and what others say about what he said does not necessarily
13 have to be true.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, your question was unclear. You said
15 other people told you that -- let me see. It's ... other people told
16 Mr. Kupresanin, yes, then I withdraw my observation.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have --
18 Q. We still have your OTP interview up.
19 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 43 in the English and page 64 in
20 the B/C/S. And towards the bottom of this page in English towards the
21 top of the page in B/C/S.
22 Q. You were asked:
23 "Have you heard him on TV saying that only a thousand Muslims
24 would stay in Banja Luka? "
25 You said:
1 "I didn't hear that myself, but I heard that he had said that."
2 You were asked:
3 "Who told you that? Other Muslims or Serbs or everybody was
4 saying it? "
5 And you responded:
6 "Serbs told me that, but a normal person cannot say such a
8 And then in the same paragraph, you mentioned Hitler.
9 So does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were
10 told during the war that Brdjanin had gone on television and said only a
11 thousand Muslims could stay in Banja Luka?
12 A. I cannot remember that. People said all kinds of things. I
13 cannot remember that specific case or the number 1.000. I don't know who
14 said that or where this number of 1.000 came from.
15 Q. Do you remember hearing from many Muslims that they were afraid
16 of him?
17 A. Well, it was not pleasant to listen to that kind of talk. Of
18 course it was not pleasant.
19 Q. Specifically, do you remember hearing from Muslims that they were
20 afraid of Mr. Brdjanin, yes or no?
21 A. I heard that -- that they were afraid or that they were being
22 frightened. I don't know if that's the same thing, but I heard that they
23 were afraid.
24 Q. Of Mr. Brdjanin, yes or no?
25 A. Of the things he said, in his addresses.
1 Q. And you considered as of 2001 that Brdjanin wanted to impose
2 radical nationalist solutions for the benefit of one national group
3 against the rights of other national groups; right?
4 A. No. In my opinion, first of all, Brdjanin in my opinion was not
5 an extremist nationalist. As for him being a nationalist or not, that's
6 another story all together. But I don't consider that he was a
8 What was Brdjanin, in fact, like?
9 Q. Sir --
10 A. He found himself in that position at that particular moment --
11 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 56 of the same interview in the
12 English, page 82 in the B/C/S.
13 Q. And what I'm going to do for the remainder of this portion of the
14 examination, sir, is simply read to you portions of the interview you
15 gave 13 years ago that you testified was truthful and was given when your
16 recollection was fresher.
17 You were asked here whether Brdjanin was one of the most radical
18 in the Krajina, and you asked what radical means.
19 MR. TRALDI: And so beginning at line 31 in the English and 16 in
20 the B/C/S, I think.
21 Q. You're told:
22 "A very fair comment. When I say 'radical,' I mean radical
23 nationalists, someone who wants to impose solutions, radical nationalist
24 solutions for the benefit of one national group against the rights of
25 other national groups."
1 You replied:
2 "I understood. Well, judging by his appearances or, and his
3 attitude, what he said, Brdjanin had all those elements and more than
5 You were asked:
6 "What do you mean by more than that?"
7 And you responded:
8 "Well, this 10 per cent thing. Or what Tudjman said, a third of
9 Serbs will be killed ..."
10 MR. TRALDI: I think we're turning to the next page, I apologise,
11 in the B/C/S.
12 Q. "Or what Tudjman said, a third of Serbs will be killed, a third
13 of Serbs will be converted, and a third of Serbs will be forced out or
14 deported and he did that."
15 You were asked:
16 "When you say the 10 per cent thing, you mean the statements
17 Brdjanin made that only a few per cent of Muslims and Croats can remain
18 in the Krajina?"
19 And you answered:
20 "Yes, that's what I heard from you, but also I heard it from the
22 So that's the truth, what you said in your interview in 2001,
23 that Brdjanin had all the elements of a radical nationalist and more and
24 that you'd heard that, as you testified a moment ago, that only a few
25 per cent of Muslims and Croats could remain in the Krajina, in his
1 position; right.
2 A. Yes, that was his position, that 1 per cent or certain number of
3 people should come back. It was expressed in terms of percentages, but I
4 don't remember what that figure, the percentage, actually was.
5 Q. And do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion
6 of your interview that I read to you a moment ago?
7 A. Yes, for the most part, I do.
8 MR. TRALDI: Given the qualification, I'll seek to that add to
9 P6994 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But for the most part. In what part do you not
11 agree, from what was read to you as your previous statement?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way it's formulated. Brdjanin
13 as a nationalist and an extreme nationalist, all these are terms for
14 analysis. His statements do lead to that sort of conclusion, but he was
15 not like that as a person. I did give a statement about it, and I do
16 stand by the statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That was -- you earlier made that reservation
18 but apparently I now understand that you stand by the interview you gave
19 which was just read to you.
20 MR. TRALDI: Can we page 68 in the English and 100 in the B/C/S.
21 Q. And you were asked --
22 MR. TRALDI: Beginning at the top of the page in the English, and
23 actually if we could go back to the bottom of page 99 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. You were asked:
25 "Do you think Radoslav Brdjanin is a war criminal?"
1 And you respond:
2 "I think that Radoslav Brdjanin ask responsible for certain
4 You were asked:
5 "What are those things ...?"
6 And you say:
7 "And for those things he should be prosecuted."
8 You're asked:
9 "What are those things he is responsible for?"
10 And you say:
11 "I cannot qualify him or I cannot say that he's a war criminal.
12 There's an institution for that. When such an institution qualifies him
13 or decides that he's a war criminal, then I will do it as well. What I
14 put on his soul are statements in, to which other national ... people of
15 other nationality, nationalities had great problems and probably those
16 statements made them move, partly."
17 You were asked:
18 "The statements that he was making on television and in the
19 media, in your opinion, was there a cause to insight Serbs living in the
20 ARK region to fight or to start a conflict with Muslims and Croats and to
21 commit the crimes that were committed in the ARK region? "
22 You say:
23 "I don't think that he had any influence before the war. What I
24 think was bad was during the war, what happened during the war."
25 And you were asked:
1 "So, during the war, did he incite the local Serbian population
2 in the Krajina to commit the crimes against Muslims and Croats?"
3 You responded:
4 "I think that his statements contributed to the great danger
5 that, that Croats and Muslims were put into and probably one part of them
6 moved out because of those things."
7 Do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of
8 your OTP interview in 2001 that I've just read out to you?
9 A. Yes, I'm trying to remember now what I said approximately 14
10 years ago. And I can say at the end, if it's the end, regarding
11 Brdjanin, that his statements were what they were and that they created
12 fear among the people.
13 As for how much those statements contributed to people leaving
14 the area, it probably did have an effect to a certain degree. So my
15 statement there is more or less that. Brdjanin did not cause the war.
16 Politics caused the war.
17 Q. Sir --
18 A. When the war started, all the parties --
19 Q. Again, I haven't asked you about the causes of the war, and I
20 appreciate that your explaining the same points you explained in that
21 part of your interview. But can I ask you to simply answer, yes or no,
22 whether you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of your
23 prior interview that I read out to you.
24 A. All right. Very well. I do stand by it.
25 Q. Now, you believed that Mr. Brdjanin was serving a purpose to
1 someone through expressing these extreme views; right?
2 A. I cannot say whether he was representatives of somebody's
3 politics or not, whether he was doing something out of his own head, or
4 based on somebody else's ideas. I think that he did not do these things
5 based on what was going on in his mind at the time. That would be my
6 assessment. I don't know what I can say about it, actually.
7 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 68 in the English and the bottom
8 of page 100 in the B/C/S.
9 And we looked at this portion of your interview before in a
10 different context, and it's just below the portion we have on our screens
12 Q. You say:
13 "I don't know anything, whether he went or he didn't go. We
14 didn't socialise. He had his own world, his people were the top, on the
16 That's the part we looked at before.
17 And then you say:
18 "Let me just say something, all his speeches and all those
19 statements and actions could have been cut off by somebody and somebody
20 could have shortened his horns. I wonder why people who were able to do
21 that didn't do it, because such statements and such accents, actions of
22 his, only damaged or created damage for the Serb people. So the
23 president of the country could have done it, the president of the
24 assembly could have, parliament, I'm sorry, the parliament, president of
25 the parliament, president of the government or the prime minister. Why
1 did they tolerate it, maybe they agreed with him, I don't know."
2 First, do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of this
3 portion of your interview as I've read it out to you today?
4 A. It was war time, I think, and there were such statements,
5 warmongering statements, on all sides --
6 Q. Sir --
7 A. -- and that was the reaction.
8 Q. Again, I've asked you a very simple question: Do you stand by
9 the truthfulness and accuracy of the portion of your interview that I
10 just read out to you, yes or no.
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And you testified in the Karadzic case that you believed
13 Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with the army about these positions of
14 his; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You believed he had an ideal relationship with the VRS; right?
17 A. Not with the army but with some people; specific people in the
18 army. He socialised with them often.
19 Q. Who do you have in mind?
20 A. Most probably he spent time with some officers. I don't know who
21 I can mention specifically. Perhaps some lower-ranking officers. Some
22 officers like that. He often referred to the army and so on.
23 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31772, page 46.
24 Q. And as it comes up, this will be a portion of your sworn
25 testimony in the Karadzic case.
1 Mr. Tieger asked you about the same portion of your OTP interview
2 that I just asked you about, and you said:
3 "I see that I've said that and I probably did, but I'll be more
4 precise now. I believe Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with the army
5 on this subject. That's my opinion. And I believe that he did not
6 communicate on that subject at all with Mr. Karadzic. He adored officers
7 and generals. I was sometimes in conflict with them but his relationship
8 with them was ideal."
9 Now, in the Karadzic case you did not suggest that it was
10 lower-ranking officers that Mr. Brdjanin was in communication with about
11 his extreme views. You said it was officers and generals; right?
12 A. I don't know. He mentioned the army a lot, but I don't know
13 actually who he was in contact with, what those -- who those officers
14 were. I mean, I would refer to them often as a factor of threat. I
15 think he did that in order to seem or to appear more powerful in our
16 eyes. But I don't recall the names of the officers. He did used to
17 refer to them, yes.
18 Q. I wanted to -- to be fair, I want to be quite clear what I'm
19 putting to you now. What I'm putting to you is, in the Karadzic case you
20 testified that it was officer and generals Mr. Brdjanin was in
21 communication with about this. Just now, you said that you don't, in
22 fact, know who he was in communication with about it. What I'm putting
23 to you is when you attempted to limit it to lower-ranking officers a
24 moment ago, you did so because you were testifying on behalf of one of
25 the generals in that army. That's true, isn't it?
1 A. It's true that the general who is sitting here knew and he
2 defended the Serbian people at a certain point in time. Some JNA
3 generals escaped. If it hadn't been for him, the Serbian people would
4 have been in big trouble. So the Serbian people do have the -- lots of
5 reasons to be very grateful to this general who is sitting here.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] We turn into closed session.
7 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Witness, Mr. Kupresanin, the Chamber would have preferred that
18 would you have answered the question that was put to you by Mr. Traldi
19 rather than to give the comment which was not solicited from you and
20 which apparently has led to some reaction in this courtroom.
21 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that the Karadzic testimony
23 also be marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31772 receives number P7010,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
3 MR. TRALDI: And for both we'll make a proposed selection at the
4 conclusion of the testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Defence can make any suggestions to
6 add for context other parts.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P353, page 53 in the English and the
9 B/C/S transcript.
10 Q. As it comes up, sir, did you ever have occasion to meet with
11 General Mladic during the war?
12 A. No. Did I have the opportunity, yes. During assembly sessions I
13 had the opportunity. I wasn't very close to General Mladic. We even had
14 some conflicts, disagreement regarding the conduct of the army and so on.
15 I had the opportunity or I was an intermediary in his appointment.
16 Radovan Karadzic --
17 Q. Sir --
18 A. -- asked me at one point to seek an officer in the JNA --
19 Q. I've asked you a very simple question and again you've gone
20 beyond it. This is a portion of General Mladic's notebook from the
21 2nd of June, 1992. It's a meeting with the leaderships of the Bosnian
22 Krajina, the SRK, and unit commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps, and the
23 commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence.
24 MR. TRALDI: Now if we could turn to page 57 in both languages.
25 Q. Before I get to the substance of the meeting, we see your name
1 and that you discuss events regarding Doboj. So, in fact, you did meet
2 with General Mladic during the war outside of assembly sessions; right?
3 At least on this occasion.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, turning to page 54 in both languages, General Mladic is
6 recording for most of this page remarks by Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Brdjanin
7 says at the second bullet point:
8 "Everything in the ARK is done at KS level."
9 That's Crisis Staff level; right?
10 A. Well, if he used the abbreviation KS, then he did. I don't know.
11 I don't know whether Brdjanin was at that session. If you say that he
12 was, then he was. I don't know whether you know at all why that meeting
13 was organised. I believe I do know, so maybe you will allow me to
14 explain. If not, I hope I've answered your question.
15 Q. For the moment, what I'm asking you is KS here refers to Crisis
16 Staff; right? Yes or no.
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Below that, Mr. Brdjanin --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, do you know any other explanation for
20 the acronym KS?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, the Crisis Staff was
22 never active on the breakthrough of the corridor. At least not
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, that's not what I asked you. The
25 question is whether -- we have to interpret what is written there. It
1 says KS. You say I don't know whether it was meant to mean Crisis Staff.
2 My question to now is: Do you know of any other explanation for an
3 abbreviation which is KS?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have an explanation for
5 this abbreviation KS. I don't know what this refers to.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you don't have --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You are aware that KS is often used as an
9 abbreviation for Crisis Staff. Are you aware of that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. I don't know that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You -- you do not know that KS is the usual
12 abbreviation for Crisis Staff?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But a few lines ago -- let me get that on my screen
16 A few moments ago, it was read to you:
17 "Everything in the ARK is done at KS level."
18 And Mr. Traldi then asked you:
19 "That's Crisis Staff level; right?"
20 You said:
21 "Well, if he used the abbreviation KS, then he did."
22 And then you continued saying that you do not know who was
23 present and you do not know whether -- why it was at all organised, that
24 meeting. You -- you apparently seem to accept that KS is the usual
25 abbreviation for Crisis Staff.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: Line 42 -- page 42, line 1, he explicitly said:
4 "I don't know."
5 JUDGE ORIE: "I don't know," and he continued --
6 MR. LUKIC: He was -- he --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: These are matters not to be discussed when the
10 witness listens in.
11 "I don't know. I don't know whether Brdjanin was at that
13 So whether the --
14 MR. LUKIC: No. If he used the abbreviation KS --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
16 MR. LUKIC: -- I don't know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic we stop this discussion we have an
18 opportunity to later analyse that.
19 My simple question is you are not aware of KS being the usual
20 abbreviation for Crisis Staff? Because this Chamber, let me be clear to
21 you, has seen the abbreviation KS for Crisis Staff hundreds of times, and
22 this Chamber has never heard any other explanation for that abbreviation
23 as it referring to Crisis Staff.
24 Therefore, I'm asking you whether you are familiar with any other
25 understanding of what the abbreviation KS stands for?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. But the
2 official name of the institution is Crisis Staff, not KS.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that is evading the question because
4 abbreviations usually are not the official names. Let's leave it to
6 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one --
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Sir --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- additional question.
11 Who was president of the Crisis Staff of the ARK?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brdjanin.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the situation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Below the part I read to you, Mr. Brdjanin says:
17 "It's a mistake to appoint agents from the centre."
18 What he's saying there is that there isn't a need to -- for the
19 republic-level authorities to appoint a commissioner in the ARK because
20 he'll carry out their decisions, he and the Crisis Staff; right?
21 A. I know nothing about that. I know nothing about that.
22 Q. Turning to page 55, Mr. Brdjanin is still speaking, refers in the
23 lower part of the page to the problem of the Krajina, which he says is
24 14.500 Muslims. This is a reference to the number of Muslims being held
25 prisoner around the ARK at the beginning of June 1992; right?
1 A. There were not that many Muslim prisoners. I don't know how many
2 times were in Prijedor. There was Omarska, there was Keraterm, those
3 were two collection centres. I don't know how many people were held
4 there. 14.000 is totally out of the question. He may have said that but
5 that's not the truth.
6 MR. LUKIC: Where it says that those were prisoners? I cannot
8 MR. TRALDI: I put to the witness that that was what he was
9 talking about.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's the question, Mr. Lukic.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. Turning to the next page, page 56, still Mr. Brdjanin, and while
14 we do, do you recall what in your opinion he did mean by 14.500 Muslims?
15 There are clearly more than 14.500 Muslims among the pre-war population
16 of the ARK.
17 A. Why he would use that figure, I don't know. I don't know why he
18 said that at all. I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, as far as the transcript is concerned,
20 looking at page 45, line 13, it's my recollection that the witness was
21 translated and was interpreted as having said that's not the truth. Is
22 that everyone's recollection, then?
23 MR. TRALDI: Mine too, yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Lukic?
1 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying to find it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It reads: "He may have said that...," it's about
3 the number. I think I heard --
4 MR. LUKIC: That's not the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's not the truth. That's what we heard.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Now on this page at the end of his remarks, Mr. Brdjanin says:
9 "About prisoners and refugees? A position, please, at the
10 highest level."
11 Here he is asking for guidance from the republic-level
12 authorities what to do about prisoners and refugees in the ARK; right?
13 A. I don't remember that at all.
14 Q. I'm going to turn now to some of those prisoners. I'll start
15 with Omarska camp. First, I'm going to ask to you confirm that you went
16 to Omarska at President Karadzic's direction; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you were at Omarska camp, you saw several hundred or maybe a
19 thousand people sitting in an asphalt area between two buildings; right?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. You went to the director's office and asked if there were any
22 deputies from the assembly there as prisoners?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now the director was Mr. Mejakic and he was wearing a blue police
25 uniform; right?
1 A. I saw a number of police uniforms there. I don't remember who
2 the director was.
3 Q. Now, you took a detainee named Mevludin Sejmenovic out of the
4 camp; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in his presence, you called President Karadzic to report to
7 President Karadzic about how your visit had gone; right?
8 A. Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic, myself, and Mr. Karadzic found ourselves
9 at the assembly building in Banja Luka and we discussed many things. And
10 we also were in communication with President Karadzic. It is true that
11 we were in communication with him, it is true that we had a meeting, and
12 it's true that we talked. All that is true. All that is correct.
13 Q. Specifically in his presence you made a phone call -- shortly
14 after taking him, you made a phone call to President Karadzic to report
15 to him on what had happened; right?
16 A. Correct, correct.
17 Q. Now you said in your interview in 2001 that you were angry about
18 what you saw in Omarska because you thought it would hurt the Serb cause.
19 You thought it would hurt the Serb cause because you could tell walking
20 in that those people were being held in unacceptable conditions; right?
21 A. I did have an argument with Radovan about that. I asked him why
22 we needed all that, and then he told me that he had not done that, that
23 it was some other people over there who --
24 Q. Sir --
25 A. Okay, okay.
1 Q. I'd ask you to focus very carefully on my question. You thought
2 it would hurt the Serb cause because you recognised these were
3 unacceptable conditions; right?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Illegal conditions; right?
6 A. There was a huge concentration of people in a small space.
7 Illegal, unnatural ... remains to be discussed.
8 Q. Well, let's discuss it. You know as you sit there today that
9 people were abused, tortured, and murdered in Omarska; right?
10 A. I didn't know anything about that. I was not even aware of
11 Omarska camp, i.e., collection centre. I was not in the picture at all.
12 When Radovan Karadzic told me that I had to do this --
13 Q. Sir --
14 A. -- and that because I enjoyed reputation, I had authority, then
15 I --
16 Q. -- I asked you as you sit there today you are aware, aren't you,
17 that people were abused, tortured, and murdered in Omarska. Today.
18 A. I know that the conditions were bad. I heard that some people
19 had been killed there. That's all I ever knew.
20 Q. Now, if we could have your OTP interview back --
21 MR. TRALDI: 65 ter 31770, page 42 in the English, and 62 in the
23 Q. -- you say in your statement and you said -- well, you say in
24 your statement when you're discussing Omarska in paragraph 43 that the
25 local authorities in Prijedor acted on their own initiative. What you
1 said --
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. What you said in 2001 discussing Omarska --
4 MR. TRALDI: And we're towards the bottom of the page, line 35 in
5 the English.
6 Q. You say first:
7 "Radovan Karadzic never told me to get Muslim functionaries or
8 politicians out of there. I did it on my own initiative. What I want to
9 say is that Radovan Karadzic told me personally that he had nothing to do
10 with that but my feeling is what I have is that the order about the camp,
11 about the camps to be established, didn't come from Brdjanin, but
12 somewhere, someone on the top, but I don't know who from."
13 So your opinion expressed in your statement, that the Prijedor
14 authorities acted on their own initiative with regard to the camps, is an
15 opinion you developed between 2001 when you gave this interview and 2013
16 when you testified in Mr. Karadzic's Defence; right?
17 A. Radovan Karadzic told me that he had nothing to do with those
18 camps, that some idiots had done that of their own will. He told me of
19 that in this own initiative and that is what I base my position on.
20 Obviously after so many years I have spoken with people and asked them
21 what was going on in Prijedor at the time. I know that people came to me
22 for two --
23 Q. Sir, when did he tell you that?
24 A. When I spoke to him, when Sejmenovic was drinking coffee in my
25 office. The door was ajar, the door was open --
1 Q. So he told you that in 1992. In 2001, you believed that the
2 order had come from above. What I'm putting to you is you've changed
3 your evidence between the interview you gave in 2001 and your testimony
4 on Mr. Karadzic's behalf last year. That's the truth, isn't it?
5 A. What you're saying is not correct. What I am saying is true.
6 You don't want my truth, do you? So what am I supposed to do? Allow me
7 to tell you the truth. You are the Prosecutor, you represent the United
8 Nations, and you on behalf of the entire globe have to be fair.
9 You represent a serious body.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there.
11 What Mr. Traldi is exploring at this moment, whether you have
12 been consistent in what you said earlier and what you said later.
13 So if you say I'm telling you the truth, Mr. Traldi is exploring
14 which of the two moments reflects what really is the truth, because he
15 sees some inconsistency in it. That's what he is doing and that's what
16 he's supposed to do.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Leaving Omarska now for Keraterm, you also know as you sit there
20 today that serious crimes including mass killings were committed in
21 Keraterm; right?
22 A. I heard about that.
23 Q. Do you recall when you learned about it? During the war or
25 A. Towards the end of the war and afterwards. There were articles
1 in the newspapers. And what I read in the newspapers is what I accepted
2 as the truth. I was never in Keraterm myself.
3 Q. Turning to Manjaca, where you also were yourself, you went in
4 August 1992; right?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. You took several prisoners out of Manjaca. For you to do that,
7 it was necessary for you first to get President Karadzic to pardon them;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then you would forward that pardon to the commander of the
11 1st Krajina Corps, General Talic, because his corps had authority over
12 the camp; right?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. While you were at Manjaca, you saw a number of Muslims who were
15 sick or ill, and you warned the VRS officers you saw there that they
16 could be legally responsible for the prisoners' condition; right?
17 A. I spoke to the officers about the Geneva Conventions and
18 prisoners of war. I warned them what might happen if they did not comply
19 with that, because we were signatories of the Geneva Conventions, i.e.,
20 Yugoslavia, the state that had disappeared was a signatory and we adopted
21 its obligations and commitments. I was satisfied with what I saw in
22 Manjaca to a certain extent.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now you came to an answer to the question when
24 you said you were satisfied to a certain extent. To what extent and to
25 what extent you were not?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To what extent? Can I be allowed
2 to talk about Manjaca and what I saw there? If you won't allow me to say
3 what I want, then I won't. Your Honour, please allow me to say what I
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm inviting you, as a matter of fact, to tell
6 us what you saw, and let's start with, because you said to some extent
7 you were satisfied, which suggests that in other respects you were not
8 satisfied that it was in line with the Geneva Conventions. And I first
9 would like to invite you to tell us what you saw which you considered not
10 to be in line with the Geneva Conventions, if there was anything.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seemed to me that there was a
12 lot of people in those buildings. The beds were not beds actually.
13 Those were mattresses on the floor. What else? I inspected the food
14 being prepared, what they were given to eat. I saw that. I noticed a
15 number of people who were sick or so I thought. So I said that an
16 infirmary should be opened there. I asked them if there was a doctor
17 there and they said that there was. I said excellent. I said that an
18 infirmary could be opened. I held speeches before the prisoners in those
19 buildings, and I told them all those are innocent and who had not
20 transgressed the law would be released, and those of you who had
21 committed crimes, you would be held responsible for them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I asked you what you saw, not what kind of
23 speeches you delivered. You've answered that question.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 40 in the English and 58 in the B/C/S
1 of this same interview. And actually, it will be at, I think, starting
2 at the very bottom of the previous page in the B/C/S.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi I'm looking at the clock. I don't know
4 how many questions you would have on this.
5 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to read this paragraph, ask him to confirm
6 it, and then move to a different topic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do that and then take a break.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. What said in 2001 was -- you were asked about Manjaca:
10 "I didn't know that but it's logical. Let me say something.
11 During that day, when I was there," and that time referring to Omarska,
12 "during one day they were all transferred to Manjaca. I went there the
13 next day immediately on my own initiative."
14 MR. TRALDI: And turning to the next page in the B/C/S.
15 Q. "I gathered a number of officers. I saw a number of Muslims who
16 were lying, lying, fallen sick or ill, I warned or pointed out to the
17 officers that they could possibly be responsible for that. I said that
18 all prisoners were registered and if they make any mistakes in -- towards
19 the prisoners, they would be -- they would sue or they would be called
20 liable or responsible for it. They were in stables, there was hay under
21 them, and on the hay was one blanket."
22 Do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of that
23 description of what you saw at Manjaca that you provided in 2001?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. TRALDI: I will turn to new topic after the break,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break first.
3 Mr. Kupresanin, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.
4 Mr. Traldi, I think your announcement was four hours. Then we
5 are -- there's not much left.
6 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. I admit I'm running a few minutes
7 behind but expect to be done in the first half of this next session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well then, you're not a few minutes behind but quite
9 a bit. Try to -- my record tells me that you have 15 minutes left. Try
10 to see to what extent you can stick to within your time-limits. And if
11 you go over it, it should be minutes, not much more.
12 We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic while we're waiting for the witness to be
17 brought in, the Chamber suggested that we would proceed and that any
18 e-court problem you're suffering from at this moment will be fixed.
19 If that causes you real problems then, of course, we would stop
20 and wait until everything is done, but ...
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Sir, I want to turn now to the massacre at Brisevo in Prijedor
1 municipality. You do not mention this in your statement but you have
2 been interviewed about it. Now, you went to Brisevo yourself in 1992;
4 A. I did not go to Brisevo. I did attempt to enter it,
5 unsuccessfully though. I still can't explain to myself why. In any
6 case, I met the wives of those killed in Brisevo and I spoke with them.
7 We were in a small Catholic church. Later on, there was a mass led by
8 the Archbishop Komarica. All of the women present asked for my help.
9 They asked me to help them to leave the village and to secure buses for
10 them to go on to a number of European countries.
11 Q. Now, I want to go step by step through your evidence about this.
12 You say you went with Bishop Komarica. You went with him and two VRS
13 officers from the 1st Krajina Corps; right?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. And you spoke to the gathering of Croat survivors that you
16 described; right?
17 A. I spoke to the Croat women who were there. There were no men.
18 Q. They told you that there had been a massacre in --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They told you the VRS had entered the village and killed 68
21 people and destroyed a large number of houses; right?
22 A. They said that the Army of Republika Srpska -- actually not the
23 Army of Republika Srpska but that somebody enter the village and killed a
24 number of people. I don't know whether they said 60 or 70.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 63 in the English, 92 in the
1 B/C/S, of this same interview.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There's a big buzz coming
3 from the English both.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we were bothered by some buzz, but it came in
5 and went out again and if there's -- let's see whether we can get rid of
6 it forever.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI: Actually, for context let's have the bottom of the
9 previous page, please, in the English.
10 Q. Now you were asked:
11 "Did you know who was responsible for the [sic] crimes in
13 MR. TRALDI: And we then turn to the next page in the English.
14 And you answered:
15 "Well, they said that it was committed by, the crimes were
16 committed by the army. That they, they did it suddenly, quickly, very
17 quickly, in a flash light."
18 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were aware
19 that it was specifically the VRS that had committed those crimes?
20 A. In a conversation with the officers later on, they said that it
21 wasn't the army, that it was no military operation. They said that -- a
22 group of people did that of their own initiative and for their own
24 Q. Sir, first, you didn't mention that in 2001 in your interview,
25 did you?
1 A. I don't remember what I said in 2001. Perhaps you can read it
2 back to me. What I saw is what I'm telling you now. Perhaps there may
3 be some differences in details between my statement and now because of
4 the time which has elapsed, but what I'm telling you is true. I keep
5 appealing to the truth being heard before the UN, but it seems you're
6 very unwilling to accept it.
7 Q. What I'm putting to you --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you refrain from these kind of
9 comments. We are asking questions. We are carefully listening to your
10 answers. But we have -- there were some moments of perceived
11 inconsistencies, there were movements of perceived contradictions, and
12 they have to be clarified. That does not justify any comment that
13 Mr. Traldi or anyone else in this courtroom would not be willing to hear
14 the truth.
15 Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Just so we're clear, what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is that
18 between your interview in 2001 you seem to have forgotten a number of
19 things and recalled a number of others, and the things that you have --
20 that you claim to have recalled in the intervening time all, I suspect,
21 you believe diminish the responsibility of President Karadzic and
22 General Mladic for the crimes that you discussed in your interview, and I
23 put to you that your testimony today is not truthful. Do you have any
24 comment on that.
25 A. I only know that it was not a planned military operation. In my
1 conversations with different people, I managed to establish that. It
2 turned out that a group of soldiers committed what they did. That's the
4 JUDGE ORIE: There is again a problem and the English booth is
5 blamed for it, at least that it comes from the English booth. Could we
6 have the assistance of technicians so that where the English booth, I
7 think ...
8 Oh, technicians are looking at it at this moment. But the
9 English booth is innocent until proven guilty.
10 Please proceed.
11 Witness, again, you're not responding to the question that is put
12 to you. The question is that there are differences between your previous
13 statements and your present statements, what -- and your later evidence.
14 Mr. Traldi puts it to you that the things you have forgotten and the
15 things you have now remembered, that they -- he understands them to be
16 not totally impartial. He said that the responsibility of
17 President Karadzic and Mladic, through the new version, is lowered, and
18 he puts to you that that is what you intend to do, to tell us a story
19 which is more favourable to Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic.
20 That's what he asks you. Please respond to that question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel very uncomfortable using
22 more time at this trial than necessary. I am not an attorney and, of
23 course, mistakes are possible. However, what I know is what I said just
24 a moment ago. It was not a military operation. There was a group of
25 soldiers who did that and the problem was that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness -- okay. Please continue.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only add to my previous
3 opinion: If in 2001 I said something, I could have been wrong. If I
4 learned something afterwards in terms of truth, why would I not be
5 allowed to amend my original statement in order to arrive at a complete
6 rather than partial truth. And please help me out with that. The whole
7 truth is that these soldiers killed civilians, males, they committed a
8 crime, and it is true that they were not held responsible.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are misunderstanding what your role is.
10 You're invited to tell us what the women told you. If someone else told
11 you something else later, you can tell us as well. Mr. Traldi then asks
12 why you didn't tell it at the time when you were interviewed, but let's
13 leave all that alone.
14 Finally, who is telling the truth, ladies or military officers
15 that you spoke with later on, that's not for you to draw conclusions from
16 what you heard. What we want to know is what did the women tell you, and
17 if you say I heard something else from someone else, fine, tell us what
18 they told us, but don't present your conclusions in this respect as the
19 truth. Tell us who told you what.
20 Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Sir, just briefly to follow up. The Chamber has received
23 evidence, I believe it's P2440 but I'll double-check the reference, that
24 that was, in fact, a military operation directed at villages in Prijedor
25 including Brisevo at the time those crimes were committed. You weren't
1 part of the operation and you don't know whether there was or wasn't, do
3 JUDGE ORIE: These are two questions, Mr. Traldi.
4 The first one is you did not participate in that military
5 operation, I take it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the -- the second question was that you
8 don't know what happened exactly in this military operation. You have no
9 personal knowledge of that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, what you heard about this crime, you didn't keep to
13 yourself, did you?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question before you go to that step.
15 Sir, you say -- what you heard was that these were just soldiers
16 who were doing this and it was not a military operation. But on this
17 statement that is -- Mr. Traldi is quoting you from, you say:
18 "I didn't say anything. I don't know, I really don't know. They
19 said," now these are the women, "that the VRS army barged in. I didn't
20 which brigade. You know what? Those subjects and topic at the beginning
21 of the war, it was very dangerous to reveal them or uncover them. Many
22 people even if they heard that, they didn't want to hear it, about it."
23 Do you have any comment on that statement, that the VRS barged
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I've nothing to say. I don't
1 know who broke into the village.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you, you have answered
3 my question.
4 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI:
6 Q. Sir, you didn't keep what you learned about the crime that had
7 been committed there to yourself, did you?
8 A. No, I didn't keep it for myself. Why I would have gone there if
9 I had wanted to keep it all for myself?
10 Q. You told, for instance, Momcilo Krajisnik, the president of the
11 assembly; right?
12 A. I don't remember that. I did speak with Komarica and a number of
13 officers regarding the fate of the women in Brisevo. Our thinking was
14 along the lines that they should be allowed to go because of everything
15 they had gone through in that village.
16 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's look now at the bottom of page 91 of
17 this same interview in the B/C/S and page 62 in the English. And
18 beginning at line 43 in the English.
19 Q. You were asked -- you say:
20 "Well, what I heard there I told to others. It didn't stay with
21 me ..."
22 You were asked:
23 "Who did you inform, who did you inform?"
24 And you say:
25 "For example, Momo Krajisnik, maybe a certain numbers of
1 minister, all deputies from here ..."
2 That's the truth what you said there, that you told, among
3 others, Momcilo Krajisnik; right?
4 A. I said perhaps. I don't know who I informed specifically. I
5 don't remember that. I did inform someone, but I don't know who exactly.
6 Maybe I even informed the radio. I'm not sure who I told. In any case,
7 what I had promised I saw it done.
8 Q. Well, in that interview --
9 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First I would like to draw the witness's
11 attention to the fact that he didn't say "perhaps." You said: "For
12 example, Momo Krajisnik." Can you look at the transcript of your
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same or similar.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't decided on a particular
17 person. I said that perhaps I did inform someone. But it wasn't so
18 important for me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was important for me to -- was
22 to see through the promise I had given to the women.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I draw your attention to the fact that you now
24 gave a different account. In the interviews, then you said, "for
25 example," which is not the same as "perhaps." Now you are saying
1 "perhaps." If you say "for example," then it is a clear statement that
2 you did it. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was expected of me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's all fine. What Judge Fluegge is doing
5 is to clearly put to you that you -- when you said, I said "perhaps,"
6 that at least on the record, on the transcript of your interview, you did
7 not say "perhaps." If you say it's unimportant for me or it's all the
8 same, that's a different matter, but that's not what you are recorded to
9 have said.
10 Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Continuing with this topic, and I'm going to return to the
13 approach of simply reading you portions of this interview, you were asked
14 a couple of lines later:
15 "The officers from the 1st Krajina Corps, they were also present
16 when you were being informed?"
17 You respond:
18 "Yes, they were always present."
19 Do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of your
20 statement at the time that the officers from the 1st Krajina Corps were
21 always present when you were informed about the crimes that had been
22 committed in Brisevo?
23 A. They were our guarantee for myself and for Archbishop Komarica.
24 It was war time and whenever one would see a vehicle with officers, it
25 indicated caution for the sake of our safety, and to reduce the level of
1 risk they accompanied us.
2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have the --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The next page, that was.
4 MR. TRALDI: -- next page in both languages, please.
5 Q. Continuing with the topic of who you informed, we see here,
6 beginning at line 6 in the B/C/S and 29 in the English that you confirm
7 to the people of Brisevo:
8 "I said that I would probably inform the military leadership or
9 something. I probably informed Mladic about it, now I can't remember."
10 That was what you said in 2001, that you believed you'd probably
11 informed General Mladic himself; right?
12 A. That is not so. As far as I recall, I informed Talic rather than
13 Mladic. I also informed a number of officers from the 1st Krajina Corps.
14 Q. Sir, on this same page, you were being asked --
15 MR. TRALDI: And we go back now to the previous page in the
17 Q. You're being asked when they told you soldiers from the VRS were
18 involved in the crimes, did it occur to you that you should inform
19 General Talic about it, and you said no.
20 So I'd put to you that when you were interviewed in the context
21 of the Talic trial, you say: "No, I didn't tell Talic but I probably
22 told Mladic," and when you testify in the Mladic trial, you say: "No, I
23 didn't tell Mladic, but I probably told Talic."
24 I'd put to you that you are not being truthful with this
1 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: If we can have the next page in B/C/S so the witness
4 can follow.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is a matter not for re-examination,
6 Mr. Lukic?
7 MR. LUKIC: No, it would be too late now --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- because we have recorded words of this witness on
10 this topic exactly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. First of all, should we -- should the witness
12 listen to this at this moment or should he take his earphones off.
13 Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Kupresanin, do you understand the English
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones for a second.
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but I found in B/C/S and I have to find it in
19 English to read it to you, but in B/C/S it's on this page in front of us,
20 line 7. Although mentioning the name of General Mladic, it is recorded
21 "but I cannot remember now."
22 MR. TRALDI: I read that out. I also read that before that he
23 said I probably informed General Mladic. I gave the full context of the
25 MR. LUKIC: "But I cannot remember now," so he couldn't remember
1 then. So he's not changing. He just mentioned the name, but he said "I
2 cannot remember now."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine. That was read to him. And at least the
4 witness is asked to comment on that, and it's perfectly a matter which
5 you could deal with in re-examination because Mr. Traldi did not unfairly
6 read, I think, the various versions the witness gave about events. But
7 let me check that very carefully. Could you assist me, Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: It's the same page in English. It's line 30.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line 29.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the transcript --
12 MR. LUKIC: I can't remember now. It's -- [Overlapping
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the transcript of today, page 63, lines 18 and
16 19, Mr. Traldi said, quoted "I probably informed Mladic about it, now I
17 can't remember." It's part of the quote that Mr. Traldi read to the
19 JUDGE ORIE: So it was fairly read to the witness. Now the next
20 question is whether it's summarised well.
21 MR. LUKIC: Claiming that he is changing something now is not
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, probability -- let's --
24 MR. LUKIC: Well --
25 JUDGE ORIE: He expressed a probability at that moment, whether
1 that's very wise to seek probabilities in a witness interview is another
2 matter. But then -- let me ...
3 Yes, I think it's -- page 64, Mr. Traldi puts to the witness that
4 when he was interviewed, that he said: I didn't tell Talic but I
5 probably told Mladic. Well, if you know for sure you do not say I
6 probably told Mladic. Then you say, I told Mladic.
7 So at that moment, he expressed both a probability and that he
8 doesn't clearly remember. The two can exist next to each other the one
9 does not invalidate the other. If I say I probably went there but I
10 don't know for sure, then there must be a reason on my mind why I think
11 that I went there rather than to a totally different place even if I do
12 not fully remember. There's nothing in what Mr. Traldi did which is not
13 fair to the witness.
14 And second, it is a matter which you could have dealt with in
15 re-examination. But, Mr. Lukic, if it is your view, of course you can
16 explore that with the witness, that if someone says this is what probably
17 happened but I don't remember, that it means that he still thinks it's a
18 probability but he can't say it for sure. That is a situation which
19 doesn't need further explanation.
20 We'll just move on. Could the witness --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to articulate what you're now trying
22 to object to which is what Mr. Traldi said. Mr. Traldi said when you
23 testified in the Talic case you said you probably told Mladic. Today you
24 are testifying in the Mladic case. You are now saying you probably told
25 Talic and this is what this witness has said today. In this report, he
1 says he probably told Talic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- I think we unanimously agree that
3 nothing was done wrong. Could the witness put on his earphones again.
4 And Mr. Traldi may proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm just checking whether the
6 question was answered. It was not.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Then, sir, I'll ask the question again. I'd put to you that when
10 you were interviewed in the context of the Talic trial, you said, no, I
11 didn't tell Talic but I probably told Mladic. And when you testify in
12 the Mladic trial, you say, no, I didn't tell Mladic, but now I recall
13 that I told Talic, and I'd put to you that you are not being truthful
14 with this Tribunal. Do you have any comment on that?
15 A. I cannot remember who I informed at this time. I said perhaps
16 and it was to be expected that the top of the army be informed. I don't
17 know who I informed specifically. There's no written trail, and I'm not
18 sure I did inform anyone in a written form. In any case, the operation
19 was over. In my mind, it was successful. Now who I informed is
20 something I can't remember.
21 Q. One reason that it was to be expected that the top of the army
22 would be informed was that the officers who were there with you audio
23 recorded the meeting where the Croat women told you what had happened;
25 A. They had their own task, these officers. Perhaps. I do not want
1 to discuss their tasks, but I presume they must have had one. I don't
2 think they were simply driving us around. They were monitoring the
3 situation. I wanted to remind you that I did not manage to get into
4 Brisevo although I wanted to. We were simply unable to.
5 Q. At the bottom of this same page, you were asked:
6 "So, you're saying that whatever was said in Brisevo, in that
7 gathering, the military officers, they were video recording everything?"
8 You say:
10 You were asked:
11 "So, how were they recording it?"
12 You say:
13 "What do you call it, something like this?"
14 And you were asked:
15 "Oh, you mean audio recording?"
16 And you say:
17 "Just sound."
18 Do you stand by that portion of your interview as accurate and
20 A. No, I just assume so. I didn't see a dictaphone. I just assume
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, like several other pages, I haven't
23 always said it, but we'll seek to add that to P6994 MFI.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's clear that whatever subject you deal with
25 in this interview that it will be considered for selection to be
2 MR. TRALDI: I thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Before finishing the Brisevo topic, sir, you knew that Brisevo
4 had been an unarmed village and there was no combat there; right?
5 A. I didn't know anything. I didn't even know which municipality
6 Brisevo was in. Even now I don't know whether it belongs to Prijedor or
7 Sanski Most. It was an area that I didn't know about. I just responded
8 to a request by Komarica. I went to look at the situation. Anywhere I
9 was asked, I would go. I tried to resolve these things with Komarica and
10 with the leadership of the municipality. I was there, I was in Sasina...
11 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 31772.
12 Q. Your Karadzic testimony.
13 MR. TRALDI: Page 119.
14 Q. This is a portion of the re-examination that Mr. Karadzic
15 conducted, so he's asking you the questions. And he says, beginning at
16 line 4:
17 "Brisevo was mentioned. Was Brisevo an undefended village with
18 civilians that some armed formation of the Serbs attacked? Was there any
19 combat there or was this an unarmed village? "
20 And you say:
21 "I think it was unarmed. There was no combat there."
22 Do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of this portion of
23 your testimony in the Karadzic case?
24 A. I think that I stand by it. It was not armed. Even a number of
25 villagers from the village were in the Army of Republika Srpska and that
1 is why I'm wondering a lot why this was said: A military operation on an
2 unarmed village. I mean, it's not logical. It could have been just a
3 whim of individuals from the Army of Republika Srpska. That is something
4 that can be discussed, but I don't know what the truth is.
5 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 31769 and this will
6 be the last document I use with this witness.
7 Q. Sir, as it comes up this will a letter from Bishop Komarica to
8 yourself. Aside from Brisevo, he informed you of a number of other
9 massacres of Croat civilians in Sanski Most, Kotor Varos, and elsewhere
10 in the ARK; right?
11 A. Yes, I think that I do remember the letter.
12 Q. And directing your attention to point 1, we see he refers to
13 massacres of civilians in Sanski Most, Skrljevita and other villages, in
14 Bascina, in Kotor Varos, and Ljubija in Prijedor. Turning to page 2 in
15 both languages, he mentions in this document also the mining and burning
16 of Catholic churches, the razing of houses and other properties. And
17 just before point 2, he informs you:
18 "Unfortunately, the general result is still quite negative
19 resulting in almost horrific massive evacuation by my faithful,
20 especially from the Sanski Most and Prijedor regions, in an effort to
21 save their bear lives."
22 Did the information that Croats were fleeing Sanski Most and
23 Prijedor in order to save their bear lives remain with you or did you
24 also pass that on to the military and other Bosnian Serb authorities?
25 A. I don't think that Mr. Komarica informed only me about it. I
1 think he informed others and other institutions. What Mr. Komarica asked
2 me to do, I implemented in the field in Banja Luka. I always had the
3 bishops, the hodzas, the president of the SDA, the president of the HDZ
4 in my office constantly.
5 Q. Sir, I'm going ask you two specific questions. Did you inform
6 the 1st Krajina Corps command of these crimes that Bishop Komarica
7 informed you of?
8 A. The Banja Luka Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska was informed
9 about it, they knew about it, they went with me to visit all those
10 places. It was only Brisevo. I went with Komarica to all the places
11 where Croats were in danger.
12 Q. And did you inform the Republika Srpska government of the crimes
13 against Croats that he informed you of, yes or no?
14 A. I know that Bishop Komarica informed the president of the
15 republic, and I don't know if he informed General Mladic and the
16 president of the assembly. That is something that I don't know. And I
17 know that that president, the president of Republika Srpska,
18 Radovan Karadzic, responded to them, saying you can contact Vojo. That
19 was the most frequent, let's say, instruction or directive that Radovan
20 would give out.
21 Q. Bishop Komarica says in this letter that there are horrific
22 massive evac indications by Croats from the ARK. You were aware, you and
23 the other members of the political leadership in the ARK, that Muslims
24 and Croats were fleeing the area in large numbers; right?
25 A. I knew of those cases in Sanski Most and in Prijedor. I knew
1 these things were happening. I went to the field. It's not true that
2 there was an exodus of Muslims and Croats and that I didn't notice that.
3 There was an exodus but what it was was that people were fleeing from
4 those villages and from those areas.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination and I
6 tender this document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31769 receives exhibit number P7011,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness -- to
12 re-examine the witness?
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, good day once again.
16 A. Good day.
17 Q. I have a lot of topics that I would like to cover, a lot of
18 documents that we need to look at, so I would just like you to gather
19 your strength.
20 A. All right. Thank you.
21 Q. I'm going to start with Thursday. My colleague, Mr. Traldi,
22 asked you about logistical support received by the Army of
23 Republika Srpska through the Main Staff from Serbia. On page 29679 of
24 our transcript, line 19, is where there is this assertion made. Did the
25 Army of Republika Srpska ask the Crisis Staff of the ARK to supply them
1 with food, clothing? Did it make such requests to the municipalities?
2 In practice, how did this look? Just briefly.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you're invited to slow down in
5 speaking. Please --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the departure of the Yugoslav
7 People's Army from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was in
8 late April and in the course of May, sometime the 20th of May, the state
9 army left, meaning that the Serb people found themselves in an unpleasant
10 situation. They didn't have paramilitary formations, they did not have
11 reserve army troops. Those that they looked to and had hoped for help
12 from had left them and abandoned them. Then we formed our own army on
13 the 12th of May. The army that we formed, and the state was not formed
14 yet, the operational organs did not function yet or the army ministry, so
15 the logistics fell to the municipalities so that the Banja Luka Corps was
16 mostly financed by the municipality of Banja Luka, and the other units
17 were formed -- were financed and supported by other municipalities.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And throughout the war, did the municipalities continue to equip,
20 feed the units that were on their territory?
21 A. Not only to feed and clothe, but I know that the municipalities
22 set aside some funds for the purchase of weapons that we didn't have; for
23 ammunition and so on. All of this was financed by the municipalities.
24 Q. The next question, the next topic that you were asked about by my
25 colleague Mr. Traldi, on page 29680 of our transcript, lines 20 on, is
1 that the Army of Republika Srpska had a massive advantage in weaponry,
2 and you confirmed that.
3 A. I confirmed --
4 Q. Just one moment, please. I haven't completed putting my question
5 to you. In your opinion, could Serbs have taken the entire Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina at that time?
7 A. I think I said openly at the assembly when the question was asked
8 why does the Army of Republika Srpska not capture all of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina so that we could finish the war, join Serbia, and avoid all
10 of this. What's happening is senseless. We can cover Bosnia easily so
11 why don't we do that? I claim that we could have done that. When I
12 sought an answer, when I received an answer, then they said, the
13 political leadership said that this was not our objective. Our objective
14 is to protect the Serbian people. The Army of Republika Srpska was
15 perhaps the fourth largest army in Europe or the third largest, or the
16 fifth largest. I mean, you can imagine what that meant in terms of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 Q. Thank you. You meant the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of
20 A. The Army of Republika Srpska.
21 Q. At the time, did you know what the weapons factories were and the
22 weapons depots that remained in the territory under the control of
23 Bosnian and Croatian side?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please begin his answer.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness. Could you -- could you re-start.
1 It's a bit unclear to us, but the interpreters asked us whether you could
2 start your answer. So could you re-start your answer to that question
3 about weapon factories and weapon depots, that remained in the territory
4 under the control of the Bosnian and Croatian side.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I begin?
6 As far as I know, the bulk of the factories were on the side of
7 the Bosnian -- actually, the Muslim Croatian side. The biggest such
8 factory, VBR and tank parts and cannon parts was located in Travnik. It
9 remained in the Federation territory. Konjic manufactured ammunition.
10 It also remained in the B and H federation. Vitez manufactured dynamite,
11 Trotyl, explosive materials. Its was in the B and H federation. I think
12 that in Gorazde also there was a bullet factory. I don't know what was
13 left over for Republika Srpska. It was one factory called Kosmos and it
14 was operating in Banja Luka.
15 As far as I know, perhaps that's it. Maybe there was some other
16 things. I think the sniper factories ZRAK in Sarajevo also functioned
17 there. I think we only had one factory on our side. I mean, it's not my
18 intention to make mistakes, but this is -- this is what I know.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could you please tell us this. You mentioned the ZRAK factory in
21 Sarajevo. On whose side was that?
22 A. It was on the Muslim side. It's a sniper factory, precise
23 weapons factory. High-precision weapons.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P6994, please.
25 Q. This is your interview to which my colleague Mr. Traldi referred
1 to often today. It's been marked for identification.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should have called it up
3 by its 65 ter number, 31770. [In English] If we can have B/C/S version
4 on our screens as well, please.
5 Q. [Interpretation] You know which document I'm talking about. I
6 just want to show you the document and so a few things were put to you in
7 relation to this document.
8 Among other things, towards the end of his cross-examination my
9 colleague, Mr. Traldi, put to you that you provided one statement -- or
10 that this statement, actually, was taken in the context of the Talic
11 trial and that later you testified in the Karadzic and Mladic cases.
12 At this time, when you gave this statement, are you able to
13 remember today if anybody ever told you that they were taking this
14 statement in the context of the General Talic trial?
15 A. No, we never discussed the topic of General Talic with any
16 investigator. It's just an empty space, a blank, as far as General Talic
17 is concerned.
18 Q. In any case, inter alia, you mentioned here that General Talic or
19 one of his deputies was at meetings. You said that on page 29684, line
20 15. You said if general was not there, one of his deputies would be.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you also told us that you saw General Talic only once at a
23 Crisis Staff meeting. Those people who deputised for General Talic, were
24 they able to vote, did they have the decision-making power at the Crisis
25 Staff meeting? Do you remember?
1 A. No, I don't think so. I remember one of his deputies who came
2 instead of him. I know that I saw Talic only once. I know that he spoke
3 about bad food in the army, that all the troops were getting was rice,
4 that they were not trained. He asked for the food funds which would make
5 all of us safe. The person who deputised for him did not vote.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. And now I would like to talk about the topic of regionalisation.
9 You were shown a document by my learned friend Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document number is P6995.
11 Q. The document was issued on the 25th September. You will see it
12 on the screen shortly. 25th September 1991 is the date on the document.
13 It was suggested to you that the ARK was established based on this
14 decision, just like all the other SAOs.
15 A. I would like to --
16 Q. Just a moment. Bear with me. In September, on the 25th
17 September when this document was passed or perhaps even -- even the 7th
18 of September, 1991, and this document refers to that date, had ARK
19 already functioned?
20 A. In 1991?
21 Q. Yes, 1991. Was it set up before, did it function?
22 A. I believe that it was sometime at the end of August or the
23 beginning of September the Assembly of Republika Srpska abolished
24 regions. It is not that I believe that. I'm sure of that. It was
25 either in Doboj or Bijeljina. It was sooner in Bijeljina. But in any
1 case, from then onwards, the regions no longer existed.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: Just to avoid confusion in the record, if we could
4 get a time-period for the -- specifically a year for the answer that the
5 witness has just given.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You heard my learned friend, Mr. Traldi.
8 A. I said that it was in 1991 either at the end of August or
9 beginning of September. That's when the regions disappeared, i.e., the
10 Assembly of Republika Srpska abolished those regions sometime around that
11 time, but I can't remember the exact date.
12 Q. When we discussed D853, which is the transcript of the founding
13 Assembly of ARK, it is not clear from the document when that assembly
14 meeting took place. However, on page 29665 of our transcript to a
15 question put to you by Judge Orie on line 5, you answered that that
16 meeting was held on the 24th April 1991.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what is your question?
18 MR. LUKIC: My question is -- we have to see the next document,
19 which is 65 ter 16110.
20 Q. [Interpretation] In this document, dated 14 May 1992, which is
21 the minutes of the 2nd Session of the Assembly of the Association of
22 Bosnian Krajina, that precedes the SAO founding document by approximately
23 three months. We can see that ARK is functioning. My question is this:
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI: I object to the characterisation. It's quite clear
1 we're conflating the ZOBK and the ARK in the question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is there any --
3 MR. LUKIC: That was my next question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, but the objection is that in the introduction
5 to this question, you're mixing up matters. Could you either demonstrate
6 that you are not or rephrase your question.
7 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when did the Association of the
9 Municipality of Bosanska Krajina become a region? Did the same people
10 continue to work in it?
11 A. I believe that it was sometime in August, but I'm not sure. It
12 may have been that I am not telling the truth. The same bodies continued
13 to exist. Why they changed the name? Because of the attribute or the
14 region with the Serbian attribute had already been set up, the Serbian
15 SAO, we had the Serbian Autonomous Region. In order to avoid the
16 attribute "Serbian" and for all the people who resided in that area to be
17 calmer and to feel better, to have a region belong to all of us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: When you said August, what year were you referring
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps 1991; but, again, I'm not
21 sure. If I make a mistake it's not intentional.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Just one more question before we break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have just one more question, yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Was that before the war?
2 A. Of course, of course. Much before the war.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's time for our next break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes when you said that you would have one more
6 question, it was just before the break and not in your re-examination.
7 Could you give us an indication as to how much time you would
8 still need?
9 MR. LUKIC: You know that Mr. Traldi always makes us work a lot.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you trigger that yourself as well, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: But I have to cover many documents, and I think that
12 there were conflicting evidence and conflicting statements, and I have to
13 clarify many, many things with this witness. I tried to object at some
14 points. Some points I didn't even object. But I'll have to cover many
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll consider that. We'll --
17 Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: One brief matter before the break, but we don't need
19 the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You don't need the witness. Then could the witness
21 be escorted out of the courtroom.
22 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Kupresanin.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 MR. TRALDI: Just in light of some of the questions early on in
25 redirect, we have reviewed the transcript of the interview and I'd direct
1 Mr. Lukic's attention to pages 74 and 75 where Mr. Kupresanin was
2 directly informed that it was in the context of the Brdjanin and Talic
3 investigation. We will seek to have that included as part of the
4 selection of pages from P6994 when we eventually make a selection to
5 propose for admission.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: Well, it's at the end, actually, or in the middle
8 of this. Not at the beginning.
9 MR. TRALDI: It's the end in the English. And, sorry, it will be
10 at the end in both languages. I just don't have the B/C/S page number
11 ready to hand.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll take a break, and we will resume
13 at 20 minutes to 2.00.
14 Mr. Stojanovic has an issue to raise.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a very practical
16 issue. Can we instruct the next witness to go back to the hotel or to
17 stay here and wait?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Having listened to Mr. Lukic, there's no -- there's
19 no reason for him to wait because I do understand that there's no way
20 that he would start giving his testimony today, assuming that the Chamber
21 follows you. Well, whatever time you would need, the Chamber would like
22 to instruct the -- in this case, the Defence, that the witness should not
23 remain stand by for today.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter
1 to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness to be escorted into
5 the courtroom, I'd like to put clearly on the record what triggered the
6 removal of Mr. Mladic from the courtroom.
7 When the witness, although not triggered by the question,
8 expressed himself, among other matters, that the Serbian people has
9 reason to be grateful to the general, referring to General Mladic, he --
10 the accused started applauding aloud and that was the reason for the
11 Chamber to remove him from the courtroom. He has been instructed several
12 times not to intervene in whatever way with the testimony of witnesses.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Lukic will now continue his
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And before I continue, I
18 would just kindly ask to make correction on the page 78, line 15, it was
19 in connection with my question. The year mentioned is 1992 and should be
20 1991, but I think that everybody understood about which document I was
21 speaking since we had it on our screens.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kupresanin, now I'm going to ask you about
25 P77001B [as interpreted] this is a Prosecutor's document. It is a
1 video-clip in which Smiljko Sagolj reports --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should repeat the number. I think we are not
3 up to 77001.
4 MR. LUKIC: Huh? I don't -- okay. It's P7001 [Interpretation]
5 It's P7001.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say P7001B?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. We have the document before us. It says in the document that
11 Mr. Radovan Karadzic said:
12 "We no longer have no obligations towards the constitution of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina but towards the constitution of Yugoslavia which
14 guarantees our right to self-determination and self-organising for the
16 This is a report on the plebiscite of the Serbian people in
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you remember whether before that date,
18 representatives of Muslims and Croats in the Assembly of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina passed a declaration of some sort contrary to the will
20 of the Serbian people and contrary to the constitution of
22 A. Yes, I remember that very well. It -- the reasons and the terms
23 were not founded, and it was about the reason for the beginning of war in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. One reason was the Islamic declaration by
25 Alija Izetbegovic. That was a political platform. Every political party
1 had its intentions and -- every political party had its intentions. It
2 is true of every political party which appears on the scene in any state.
3 They have their objective and their platform, and from the platform of
4 any political party you can tell exactly what they want. The Serbian
5 Democratic Party had its own platform or program.
6 Q. I apologise, I need to interrupt you now. Did you ever hear of
7 the declaration on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes, I did. That was on the 14th October 1991 when a group of
9 deputies, not all the deputies but only the Croatian and Muslim deputies,
10 sometime late in the night - after midnight, that is - together voted on
11 the declaration of -- on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They
12 did it on their own.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please slow down, sir. Please slow down. The
14 interpreters are struggling to keep pace with you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of October, 1991, in
16 the small hours of the night, after midnight, Croatian and Muslim
17 deputies unbeknownst to the Serbian deputies, met after midnight in the
18 building of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and passed this
19 declaration on sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 By doing that, they breached the federal constitution, the
21 republican constitution --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we interrupt you for a second. The events in
23 the assembly on the 14th and 15th October have been dealt with in quite
24 some detail.
25 Mr. Lukic, if there's anything which this witness would add to
1 that, to what is already in evidence, you're invited to put focused
2 questions to him, because it seems that to hear all what happened there
3 again would result in repetitious evidence, and I think - I'm also
4 looking at the Prosecution - that on the main factual part, that perhaps
5 there's no great disagreement. I am not talking about how it's
6 appreciated. But that's, of course, a different matter.
7 Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] How did you personally perceive that declaration
10 on independence?
11 A. The declaration on independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a
12 sovereign, integral, and indivisible state of Bosnia-Herzegovina first
13 humiliated all of us deputies in the assembly and the Serbian people as a
14 whole. Second of all, it broke up Bosnia-Herzegovina. And thirdly,
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina was left there without the Serbian people and the
16 territory where 62 per cent of the Serbian people resided.
17 The Serbian people established its own assembly to cover the
18 political interests of the Serbian people. It organised protection for
19 the Serbian people and that's how Bosnia-Herzegovina imploded and was
20 split into the two entities that would later on be recognised by the
21 Dayton agreement. The Serbian people is a constituent people of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a state forming people. There are three peoples in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina: Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.
24 Q. Thank you. As a deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina, after the passing of that declaration of independence by the
1 Muslim and Croatian deputies in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did
2 you think or believe that it was possible to continue honouring
3 commitments toward the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. At that moment Bosnia-Herzegovina imploded. The constitution was
5 made null and void. For the declaration to be passed, two thirds of a
6 majority in Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly had to vote in favour.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down. Could the witness
8 please repeat the figures again.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are again invited to slow down because
10 the interpreters cannot follow you. Could you re-start. You said
11 two-thirds of a majority in Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly had to vote in
12 favour. And could you resume from there, when you mentioned apparently
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the parliament of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina had 240 members. There were 84 Serb assemblymen, if
16 there were fewer of us, 80 or 79, then the constitution of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been honoured. As things stood
18 tendentiously and under the influence of the international community,
19 they did what they did. Bosnia-Herzegovina thus was destroyed through
20 the constitution and after that it has never become united. That's why
21 we had two entities and the Serbian people still need to find their own
22 space in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 And I believe that that was not done only by Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 on its own. It was done under the pressure of the international
25 community. In December 1991, the Holy City --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, first of all, your question and how the
2 witness perceived all that, and he moves away, far away, from what the
3 question is. So please try to put as focused questions as you can and
4 stop the witness immediately once he moves away from your question.
5 MR. LUKIC: My impression was that now are you. You took over
6 from me. And I didn't want to interrupt. But I will.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I asked him to re-start his answer at the request of
8 the interpreters, so if -- this is certainly not to be understood as
9 taking over. But I should think about my reputation in this respect.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 [Interpretation] I'll move onto another document. Can we please
13 have P7005.
14 Q. In order to make a link between the declaration of independence
15 and the referendum I am about to ask you, tell us please what happened in
16 December 1991? What were you trying to tell us, but briefly, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi. Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, the question is leading.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: The witness started to tell us something --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You said in order to make a link between this and
22 that, and that is leading because that suggests that --
23 MR. LUKIC: I'll leave December.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- a link does exist.
25 MR. LUKIC: I will leave December completely so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. LUKIC: So let's go to the end of February and the beginning
3 of March 1992.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But don't give the context in which the
5 witness has to link matters together.
6 But, meanwhile, I use the opportunity. I understood that the
7 microphone in the English booth was replaced but we have a similar sound
8 now. So could our technicians either find another microphone or do
9 something else to fix it.
10 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Before us is the stenographic record of the
13 8th Session of the SN, which probably stands for the Serbian people,
14 dated 25th of February, 1992.
15 As regards evidence in this case, it happened four days before
16 the referendum. Do you know when the referendum on the independence of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina took place?
18 A. I think it was in September although I don't recall exactly. In
19 any case, in 1991.
20 Q. You were told -- do you agree -- as a matter of fact, maybe I
21 should start my question like this: According to what you know at that
22 time you were a deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did the
23 Muslim and Croatian representatives in the assembly know, were they
24 informed that the Serbs were opposed to the referendum on the
25 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. Yes, they knew. But irrespective of that, I wanted to return to
2 what I initially wanted to say. It wasn't the Serb, Bosniaks, and Croats
3 who started the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you're supposed to answer a
5 question and not to say this is my answer, and now I'll continue what I
6 want to tell you. You're here to answer questions.
7 Mr. Lukic, your next question, please.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. In this document you were quoted as having said the following.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 60 in the B/C/S and 75
11 in the English.
12 Q. As you can see, you have the B/C/S version in front of you that
13 you can follow. Actually, this is not the page. My notes about the
14 pagination must be wrong.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is Mr. Traldi in any way in a position to assist.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It depends if you wanted to have the English page
17 on the screen. If that is the right one, then B/C/S is wrong.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in English, it's page 75 out of 77, which
19 suggests that you should, in B/C/S, try to find in the very last few
20 pages, and it's 95 pages all together, and ... unless it's ...
21 Could it be page 93 where I see Mr. Kupresanin mentioned at least
22 in the B/C/S original.
23 MR. LUKIC: No, I have wrong page numbers, I really apologise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But is it not the one on our screen now, 93?
25 MR. LUKIC: No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the one.
2 MR. LUKIC: No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But it -- unless the two documents are not
4 completely translated, if it is two pages from the finish in English,
5 then it should not be more than two or three pages from the end in --
6 MR. LUKIC: The whole day we have a problem with electronics and
7 it's not working again so I cannot check it. We tried to solve it during
8 the break but I'm --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you had two different pages on the
11 screen. Were you looking for the B/C/S one which was on the screen or
12 the English one which was one the screen previously. You asked for
13 page 60 in B/C/S.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that the right one?
16 MR. LUKIC: None of these pages.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: None of these pages? Then you should --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Both English and B/C/S are wrong.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I can't assist you. Then you have to --
21 MR. LUKIC: But thank you anyways. If we can have P7006, please.
22 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked about this document. It is an
23 excerpt from the minutes of the 14th Session of the ARK Assembly.
24 My learned friend Mr. Traldi asked you, at page 29740 of our
25 transcript -- well, I believe it requires further explanation, but I'll
1 read out my colleagues question in English so that it is interpreted for
2 you. It is in line 13 and 14 of page 29740. [In English] I quote:
3 "Now, in the days between the 25th and the 29th of February, the
4 constitution had been promulgated; right?"
5 A. Precisely.
6 Q. [Interpretation] You were shown this document regarding the
8 In your replies, on page 29742, line 13, you said:
9 [In English] "Only Assembly of Republika Srpska could adopt such
11 [Interpretation] And at page 29743, line 7, you said:
12 [In English] "I would not be a position to sign a document
13 adopting the republican constitution."
14 [Interpretation] In this document --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we require the next page, in both
16 versions, that is to say, the conclusions.
17 Q. In item 1, we read the following:
18 "The deputies of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina
19 fully accepted the constitution of the Serbian Republic of
21 You said that you were not in a position to put a constitution
22 into force and that is normal. We had a judge participate in that
23 discussion agreed, and he said that he was asking about facts.
24 Do you recall - if you don't, just say so - why was it necessary
25 for the ARK Assembly to fully accept the constitution of the Assembly of
1 the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. I don't recall that. I am a bit embarrassed. The constitution
3 in the Assembly of Republika Srpska and the MPs who were invited to
4 establish the state were asked to put a constitution into force. They
5 were not duty-bound -- well, they could assume a position given the fact
6 that they had previously read the constitution and they were familiar
7 with the subject matter, then they could perhaps decide.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Decide what?
10 MR. LUKIC: It's the end of our working day and I'm finished with
11 this topic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us: They could decide, they
13 could decide what?
14 Witness, yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, what am I supposed to do?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said that they could assume a position,
17 having read the constitution, and they were familiar with the subject
18 matter, and then "they could perhaps decide."
19 Decide what, or decide on what?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not decide. I was
21 referring to those who can enact a constitution and who is familiar with
22 it. As for the assembly of the region, I don't know what kind of
23 decision they could make and they did not. They had nothing to do with
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I'm puzzled by the fact that in your
1 previous answer you said "then they could perhaps decide." So you
2 consider it there possible. But now you say it's -- you don't know what
3 kind of a decision they could make. That's still puzzling.
4 But we adjourn for the day.
5 Mr. Lukic, any time estimate for tomorrow, assuming that e-court
6 is functioning?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid a bit more than first session. Because I
10 just covered Thursday and I have to cover today's day.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is -- let's further discuss this because
12 you know that the number of --
13 MR. LUKIC: I will try because we are in a rush with the next
14 witness, he has to leave, and I will try to cut it down as much as
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll wait and see.
17 Mr. Kupresanin, we'll conclude your testimony tomorrow but we'll
18 adjourn now for the day. I'd like to instruct you again - as I did last
19 Thursday - that you should not communicate in whatever way, with whomever
20 about your testimony, whether already given or still to be given.
21 You may follow the usher. And we'd like to see you back tomorrow
22 morning at 9.30.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 16th of
25 December, 9.30 in the morning same courtroom, I.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of
3 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.