141217ED

Page 29949

1 have no further questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13808 receives Exhibit Number P7014,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

6 I would have one or not more than a few questions.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I draw your attention to paragraph 15 of your

9 statement.

10 Could it be shown on the screen. And that is P -- D860. I think

11 it would be page 6 in -- the end of paragraph 15 in both languages.

12 Yes. You describe in that paragraph the act and conduct of a

13 certain Mr. Sabanovic, and then at the very end you -- the last sentence

14 reads:

15 "The public knows about this because it was broadcast on

16 television together with the fact that Alija Izetbegovic, the president

17 of the BH Presidency, appealed to him and supported him, instead of

18 insisting on him being prosecuted."

19 Now, you say the public knows about this. Do you consider

20 yourself to be a member of the public and therefore you learned about it

21 through the media? Is that -- or do you say: The public knew it because

22 they watched television and I knew it for other reasons?

23 A. Your Honour, Mr. President, that incident was broadcast live by

24 Television Sarajevo or the Bosnia-Herzegovina television, so the dialogue

25 between that gentleman and the president of the presidency of Bosnia and

Page 29950

1 Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, everybody could follow it on

2 television.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First could you tell us when it happened?

4 Because that's totally unclear from the -- from the statement. When

5 exactly did it happen?

6 A. I really cannot say exactly if it was March or April. Perhaps it

7 was in May when I was watching television in Trebinje.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So it was after you had left Sarajevo?

9 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And did you watch it on television and that's the

11 source of your knowledge?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now just for me to understand, apparently there

14 was a violent exchange. And then you say it was live broadcasted.

15 Should I understand negotiations between Mr. Sabanovic and the

16 government? And where was Mr. Izetbegovic at the time? I mean, I'm just

17 trying to get an impression on what exactly happened. Was it by

18 telephone that they communicated?

19 A. As far as I can remember, what probably happened was the TV

20 station at the time was called Yutel and it frequently tried to calm the

21 situation down. Mr. Milic, everybody who worked at that television

22 station. So I think that there was a contact, phone contact between him

23 and the person who was at the hydroelectric power-plant. And they also

24 linked up Mr. Izetbegovic from the presidency so that he could try to get

25 Mr. Sabanovic not to do what he was threatening to do, which was to

Page 29951

1 destroy the dam. The link was a telephone link and that conversation was

2 broadcast live on television.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier you said: "So I think that there was a

4 contact, phone contact ..."

5 Do you think that that was the case or do you -- why do you think

6 that?

7 A. I think so because they managed to establish a connection with

8 Mr. Sabanovic at the hydroelectric power-plant by telephone, and then

9 they were looking for a way to influence him so that he would not carry

10 out his threat. And then they asked Mr. Alija Izetbegovic to speak with

11 him on the telephone, and all of that was broadcast live on television.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what exactly did Mr. Izetbegovic tell

13 Mr. Sabanovic?

14 A. I don't remember that after 22 years or more. All I know is that

15 he had a positive effect on him so that he did not do that. He was

16 explaining why he wanted to do that. So he was telling Mr. Sabanovic

17 that he understood him, his reasons and everything, but he was trying to

18 get him not to do what he was intending to do because of the danger that

19 was posed by that down river for the people there. So Alija Izetbegovic

20 had a positive effect and he used his position and his authority to get

21 Mr. Sabanovic not to do what he was intending to do.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you also say in your statement that he

23 "appealed to him and supported him, instead of insisting on him being

24 prosecuted." Would you expect Mr. Izetbegovic at that moment to say to

25 Mr. Sabanovic: You'll be prosecuted if you go on? Is that what you --

Page 29952

1 rather than to calm him down in whatever way. I'm puzzled by the

2 statement in this respect.

3 A. I believe that in our situation in terms of crime and security,

4 the idea was to calm the situation down, to give him support, and not to

5 threaten him. However, when the crime was committed, when owing to his

6 activity - I mean, Mr. Izetbegovic - he didn't do that, and I believe

7 that after that, at his request as a member and the president of the

8 highest Executive Board, which was the presidency, they should have given

9 an order for the crime to be prosecuted. However, I don't believe that

10 that ever transpired.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You think you don't believe that. Any reason for

12 that belief?

13 A. I don't believe because immediately after the events, and also

14 for objective reasons - i.e., the war - I did not hear or I did not read

15 anywhere that any of those crimes were ever prosecuted; for example, the

16 destruction of the sculpture of Ivo Andric, the events at the dam, the

17 barricades, the murder of the wedding party member, and so on and so

18 forth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the sentence I read to you suggests that

20 Izetbegovic could be heard on television not insisting on Mr. Sabanovic

21 being prosecuted, but I do understand that that part of the sentence, the

22 very last part, relates to that you believe that he was not prosecuted

23 because you never heard he was prosecuted, and what the role of

24 Mr. Izetbegovic was at that time is -- you couldn't know that from

25 watching television, at least not the live broadcast of the event. Is

Page 29953

1 that well understood?

2 A. Correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a follow-up question.

5 Sir, at the time who -- which authority was responsible for

6 initiating prosecutions against criminals?

7 A. Both then and now it would be the police, the Ministry of the

8 Interior, and those who actually initiate prosecution are state

9 prosecutions. The point of my statement was that --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking --

11 A. -- for a year and a half I never received anything --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the point of your

13 statement. I am just asking you a simple question. You have answered my

14 question.

15 So it would not be Izetbegovic's duty to initiate prosecutions,

16 isn't it so? It was for you, the prosecutor, to do so.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But then -- one last question.

20 You had left Sarajevo already at that point in time and were not

21 actually functioning as a prosecutor?

22 A. I don't think so but let me just say that the municipal or,

23 rather, basic prosecutor in Visegrad was responsible for this, for the

24 prosecution of this crime. He should have done it on a report received

25 by the police. I don't know whether he ever received it or not. And it

Page 29954

1 was up to the prosecutor to prosecute, and I did it all that time without

2 any criminal reports as a matter of fact. I did it as means of

3 preemption to prevent any escalations of the situation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you have no specific knowledge on how it

5 happened that he was not prosecuted, what exactly -- how the

6 decision-making process took place because you were not there.

7 A. Nothing specific. But those organs were obstructed in the work

8 along party lines because the parties took over not only in the

9 ministries but also in the executive power.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I see that as a general matter. But no specific

11 knowledge about this decision, if there was any, which resulted in the

12 non-prosecution of Mr. Sabanovic.

13 I have no further questions. Any questions triggered by --

14 Mr. Stojanovic, no further questions. Mr. File --

15 MR. FILE: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- no further questions.

17 Then, Mr. Runjevac, this concludes your testimony in this court.

18 It may have been relatively short, but as I reminded you several times,

19 we have your statement and of course that's the main body of the evidence

20 you have given. I would like to thank you very much for coming a long

21 way to The Hague, for having answered the questions that were put to you

22 by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

23 You may follow the usher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for having listened to

25 me. Thank you.

Page 29964

1 Mr. Jeremy. You will find Mr. Jeremy to your right, and Mr. Jeremy is

2 counsel for the Prosecution.

3 And may I urge you to focus your answer on what is asked, rather

4 than to move in all directions.

5 Mr. Jeremy.

6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

8 Q. And good morning, Mr. Tadic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Wait.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 MR. JEREMY:

12 Q. I would like to begin, just in the couple of minutes that we

13 have, by returning to something that you said this morning. So if I

14 understand correctly, you were a founding member of the

15 Serbian Democratic Party, or the SDS, but you were not in fact a member

16 of that party; is that correct?

17 A. The conversation with those who initiated the foundation of the

18 party started by me saying, "I will help in the setting up of the

19 Serbian Democratic Party as a movement of the Serbian people to preserve

20 Yugoslavia on one condition: I don't want to be a party member."

21 Mr. Sendic, who was my collocutor, accepted that. I did participate in

22 the founding of the party but with the reservation, with the caveat that

23 I would never hold a position, I would never work as a party member, but

24 I said that I will invest all of my potentials in preserving Yugoslavia

25 and in the project which was the political platform of the

Page 29965

1 Serbian Democratic Party.

2 Q. Okay. And the last question on this area is this: Now, together

3 with Radovan Karadzic you arranged for a gathering of the SDS in

4 September 1990 in Lusci Palanka that was attended by him and various

5 other leaders of the SDS; correct?

6 A. During the month when the party was being established I was in

7 constant contact and I happened to be together with Radovan twice. For

8 the first time it was in 1990 and the second time was on the 9th of

9 September, 1992, in Lusci Palanka --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In 1990.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when he and Raskovic were there.

12 In other words, I took part in the organising of that event.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I know we are at break time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break first.

17 Mr. Tadic, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see

18 you back after the break. You may follow the usher.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

24 the courtroom.

25 There was one preliminary matter which we should deal with before

Page 29966

1 the next witness arrives, but I don't know how much time it would take.

2 If it is a matter of -- that's at least our information, that before

3 Mr. Milutinovic would arrive that we would have to deal with a

4 preliminary matter. But if it takes more than half a minute or minute,

5 then I would postpone it. If it is dealt with in a second, then we'd

6 hear it now.

7 MR. TIEGER: It will take longer than a half a minute, not much

8 but sufficiently more that we should proceed now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we proceed now.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that Mr. Tieger was speaking and not

11 Mr. Traldi. Now it's corrected.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed with your

14 cross-examination.

15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Mr. Tadic, you testified in the Karadzic case in December 2013;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you told the truth in that testimony; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, your statement in the Karadzic case took the form of

22 question and answer. Do you recall that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, what I'd like to do now is to look at one of the questions

25 and one of the answers that you provided in that statement.

Page 29967

1 MR. JEREMY: Could we therefore please see 65 ter 1D02286. And

2 that's Mr. Tadic's statement from the Karadzic case.

3 Q. All right, Mr. Tadic. So we see that this is your statement. We

4 see your name on the front page.

5 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 3, and I'd like to look

6 at question 14.

7 Q. Now, I'll note that paragraph 12 and 13 of the Karadzic statement

8 are very similar in substance to paragraphs 11 and 12 of your Mladic

9 statement. But I'd like to focus now on paragraph 14, and I'll read the

10 question and the answer, and I'll ask you if you stand by that answer in

11 respect of your testimony in this case. So the question is as follows:

12 "Did the shortage of the professional command personnel influence

13 the quality of command and control in the unit mobilised in the

14 Sanski Most area?"

15 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to the next page in the English,

16 please.

17 Q. And the answer:

18 "No, not to a significant degree. Reserve officers were

19 generally trained for certain levels of command. They took courses and

20 were called for tactical exercises that the JNA organised, and this

21 training was of high standard."

22 So simply, Mr. Tadic, do you stand by the answer that you

23 provided to that question today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 29968

1 MR. JEREMY: And I'm finished with the Karadzic statement, thank

2 you.

3 Q. Now, sir, in paragraph 21 of your statement you discuss

4 propaganda, and I'd like to ask you few questions on that topic now.

5 Now, in 1992, the SDS produced a bulletin called the "Informator";

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I'd like to take a look at that with you now.

9 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 06616 on the screens.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is the wrong document.

11 MR. JEREMY: I think we're still waiting for it to come up, so

12 06616, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That still seems not to be the document.

14 Could everyone verify whether he's using the right numbers,

15 either by asking or in responding to the request?

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And could you repeat the number of the document

17 you are looking for.

18 MR. JEREMY: Yes, I'm looking for document number 06616,

19 according to my notes.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The 65 ter number of the statement of the witness

21 is quite similar, but this bears 1D1616, but this is not what we are

22 looking for.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have the right document --

24 MR. JEREMY: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- now on our screen.

Page 29969

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for your

3 patience, Your Honours.

4 Q. Now, sir, on our screen before us we see the "Informator" of

5 Serbian Democratic Party Sanski Most. And we see it's published on

6 St. Peter's Day 1992. Now, St. Peter's Day is in July; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, we see that the publisher of this document is the

9 Serbian Democratic Party Information and Promotion Centre. Now, below

10 that we see editor-in-chief Borislav Savanovic. Now, he was the

11 president of the club of the SDS deputies in Sanski Most; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And looking at the associates below that, we see R. Nedjeljko,

14 that's a reference to Nedjeljko Rasula; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was president of the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now we also see a reference to Boro Tadic as one of the

19 associates. That's you, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And so you contributed to this publication; correct?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Now, we see at the bottom of the page that it was printed in

24 300 copies. Now, the target audience of the "Informator" was not just

25 SDS members but also Serbs and non-Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?

Page 29970

1 A. It was up to the people to read if they wanted to.

2 Q. But it was generally available; yes?

3 A. Yes. Whoever could get their hands on it could read it and

4 inform themselves.

5 Q. Now, I'd like now to move to the content of this document. But

6 before I do, I'd just want to remind you what you said in paragraph 21 of

7 your statement, which is as follows:

8 "It is bizarre to talk about the Serbian propaganda at the time

9 as allegedly disseminating hatred and fear."

10 And then at the end of that paragraph 21, you go on to say that

11 the Serbs tried to "calm down the situation and prevent conflict."

12 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we go to page 3 in this document, please.

13 Q. Now, sir, we see that this section begins:

14 "Dear brother Serbs ..."

15 And I'll read a part of it.

16 "Do you know what our blood-thirsty enemies have been scheming

17 for us?

18 "What they had in mind was to gouge out our eyes and carve us up,

19 hack our bodies to pieces, rape women and girls in front of their

20 dearest, to circumcise, to destroy our religion, to crush us - just

21 because we happen to be Serbs.

22 "Don't think that anybody's family would have been spared. They

23 had monsters ready and committed to raping Serbian women, and they had

24 developed a system of killing each and every Serb."

25 And I'll skip down a few paragraphs to the eighth paragraph down,

Page 29971

1 where we read:

2 "They had been preparing for genocide against the Serbs, but did

3 not get away with it because we saw what was coming. We warned and

4 prepared our people in time."

5 Now, Mr. Tadic, this is propaganda intended to disseminate hatred

6 and fear, isn't it?

7 A. When one discusses the truth, it is no propaganda aimed at

8 misleading but rather to illuminate so that people would understand what

9 is possible to happen. Everything what Rasula wrote had to do with some

10 documents he showed me in the office. They found it in the possession of

11 the SDS [as interpreted]. He even mentioned some instruments they found

12 during their searches and their plans in terms of who was supposed to do

13 what.

14 Given the fact that we had gone through it all 50 years before in

15 1941, when only in one day five and a half thousand Serbs were killed and

16 when thousands upon thousands of people from Sana were taken to

17 Jasenovac, those wounds - which had still not healed - served as a

18 warning for us, that we need to organise ourselves, and that we do not

19 allow what happened in 1941 to happen again.

20 As for the breakup of Yugoslavia, well, the Western world

21 employed its cunning manner in that and we tried to pre-empt it. We were

22 no longer the same people --

23 Q. Sir?

24 A. -- who saw the genocide and slaughter of 1941.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I just -- I do understand that you

Page 29972

1 say it's not propaganda because it's the truth. That is, in brief, your

2 answer to the question.

3 Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Maybe witness should answer your questions first. I

5 just have one intervention into -- into transcript.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 But is that well understood, your answer which I would just

8 summarise in this way.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 I would have another question, but first, Mr. Lukic, I leave it

12 to you.

13 MR. LUKIC: Page 31 --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. LUKIC: -- line 4.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: I think that wrong party was recorded. Maybe it

18 should be clarified. "In possession of ..."

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, yes.

20 The documents that Mr. Rasula showed you in his office, they

21 found it in the possession of, may I take it that you want to refer to in

22 possession of the SDA?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In his office, I don't recall

24 the day exactly, but --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, no -- just --

Page 29973

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- since I was away --

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, the problem was that it was recorded as "SDS"

3 but you referred to, which seems to be logical, the SDA.

4 I have one short question. I thought you had confirmed that

5 already but --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I hope I said the SDA.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then one simple question. You also said in

9 paragraph 21: "They tried to calm down the situation." The language you

10 just saw on your screen, do you consider that language which would be

11 useful to calm down the situation?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was much propaganda coming

13 from the West against the Serbs.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's not my question. My question is:

15 Whether the language that was just shown to you, whether you consider

16 that language of a type to calm down the situation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a response to what was

18 forthcoming, the breakup of Yugoslavia. No one was having it easy at the

19 time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, for one reason or another you prefer rather

21 not to answer my question.

22 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

23 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. Now -- so I'd like to look at another part of this document, and

25 it's a part that is explicitly authored by Mr. Rasula --

Page 29974

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Jeremy, may I interrupt you. I'm terribly

2 sorry to do this. I would like -- I have got a question related to just

3 what the witness has just been saying.

4 Sir, as an associate member of the "Informator," which is an

5 organ of the SDS, you were working for the SDS, were you not?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended only one meeting.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I stop you there. As a contributor to the

10 "Informator" by virtue of being of an associate member, you were working

11 for the SDS, were you not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain the way the

13 establishment --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I don't want you to explain -- no --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- went and developed.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I'm just asking you a very simple question.

17 You can answer me "yes" or "no." Were you working for the SDS?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked for the Serbian people.

19 If that included the SDS, then, yes, I helped wherever I could.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: This --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I helped in the establishment of

22 the party.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am not talking about the establishment. I am

24 talking about contributing to the "Informator." That was an SDS organ.

25 So by being -- you were contributing to the work of the SDS, were you

Page 29975

1 not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Now, I'm asking you this question because at

4 page 24, lines 8 to 17 are too long to mention but I'm just going to

5 mention one line. At line 12 you say:

6 "I did participate in the founding of the party but with the

7 reservation, with the caveat that I would never hold a position, I would

8 never work as a party member."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not correct because now here you're

11 working as an associate member of an organ of the SDS.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as an associate but not as a

15 member of the party.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.

18 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Could we please go to page 5 in the English of this document and

20 page 4 in the B/C/S.

21 Q. And, Mr. Tadic, this is a section written by Mr. Rasula and we

22 see the title is: "The Place and the Role of the

23 Serbian Democratic Party in Time of War."

24 MR. JEREMY: And actually we'll need to -- having established the

25 title, I'll need to go to the next page in the English, please.

Page 29976

1 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to focus on the seventh paragraph down

2 on -- of the B/C/S on the screen before you.

3 MR. JEREMY: And it's the third paragraph on the screen in

4 English.

5 Q. It reads as follows:

6 "With the coming of war and the new conditions, but still

7 adhering to the goal of creating a Serbian state, the work of the

8 Serbian Democratic Party naturally evolved into a series of duties and

9 actions which served to prepare, organise, and provide the Serbian people

10 with the means of guaranteeing their safety in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

11 making them ready for a bitter battle with the other two peoples - the

12 Muslims, if they are -- if indeed they are a people (THEY ARE NOT), and

13 the Croats who have forever carried in their genes a sick, a pathological

14 desire and urge to kill those better, more honest, and - do we need to

15 say this - stronger than they are. It has always been like that."

16 Mr. Tadic, you shared Mr. Rasula's views on Muslims and Croats;

17 yes?

18 A. His wording was much harder, much fiercer. My position is the

19 position of faith. It is a fact that in all world wars, the Muslims and

20 Croats turned on the Serbs and they always leaned towards

21 Austria-Hungary, Turkey, and Germany, and this time around America.

22 America took upon itself the role previously held by Germany in

23 World War II on the eve of World War III.

24 Q. Sir, I think we have a part of this in your statement and I'll

25 come to it and you'll have an opportunity to address it. Now, from the

Page 29977

1 answer that you just provided, I understand that you considered the words

2 of Mr. Rasula to be stronger than the words that you would use. But

3 substantively in terms of the gist of what we read here, do you agree or

4 do you disagree with Mr. Rasula's position?

5 A. I do not agree with his wording and the way he used those words,

6 but I do agree that there was a danger, a threat to us should they have

7 been able to use force. Thank God they were not able to use force

8 because they left the JNA which in turn resulted in the creation of a

9 Serb army. It was their policy to abandon the JNA and leave Yugoslavia.

10 This enabled the Serbs who remained legally in their state defending the

11 constitutional order of Yugoslavia to get hold of the weapons.

12 Q. Sir --

13 A. That was the only possibility given to the Serbian people.

14 Q. So when Mr. Rasula says that the Muslims are not a people, do you

15 agree -- do you agree with that?

16 A. You see, all documents that we have from the time of war and

17 since refer to Bosniaks, but they are nowhere to be found. They called

18 themselves Muslims before 1991. This shows you that they are confused in

19 their understanding of themselves. Mesa Selimovic who was a Muslim but

20 realised that he had Serb origins said --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm going to stop you there again. You

22 were asked whether you considered the Muslims to be a people or not. You

23 are explaining us how they considered themselves, but the question was

24 whether you considered them to be a people, yes or no. Would you please

25 focus on that.

Page 29978

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I respect whatever they say about

2 themselves. If they say they are Bosniaks, I honour that. And I

3 honoured when they called themselves Muslims. But what I think about

4 that is a different matter. I respect someone who respects themselves.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about whether you have an opinion

6 about that and what that opinion is. And by saying that "I respect

7 whatever they say and my opinion I'll keep it for myself" is not an

8 answer to the question. But that seems to be a pattern, that you're not

9 answering the questions, and I would urge you to answer them.

10 Now, in view of the last few questions put to you by Mr. Jeremy,

11 whether you agreed with the views of Mr. Rasula, you used a lot words.

12 But it's clear, or at least as I read it, and if -- as one could read it,

13 in this text Mr. Rasula, by referring to genes, by referring to

14 pathology, and by referring to the Serbs being better, depicts the

15 Muslims as inferior people. Now, whatever political stance they may have

16 taken in the past, do you agree - apart from the specific language -

17 that -- with Mr. Rasula, that Muslims are inferior to Serbs? Because

18 that's what appears from this text. Do you agree with that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I said it was too

20 hard-line. I would never put it in that way. But it's clear to me where

21 the fear and the hate comes from and how come that they were always

22 against the Serbs. Because these are Serbs who changed their faith and I

23 was -- and they felt sorry once Turkey left.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you do not share the view as

25 expressed by Mr. Rasula in this text that Muslims are inferior to Serbs?

Page 29979

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not use that qualification

2 myself.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

4 MR. JEREMY:

5 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to -- to now move to how you yourself describe

6 Muslims in your statement.

7 MR. JEREMY: But before I do, I'd like to tender that document,

8 the "Informator."

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's 54 pages, Mr. Jeremy. Do we need them all?

10 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I think we do need more than the

11 sections that I've had the opportunity to read to the -- to the witness,

12 but I agree that it is a long document and I would propose that it be

13 MFI'd and I will take another look at the document and --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. JEREMY: -- work to remove some sections before tendering.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you please do so because from my last question it

17 appears that just reading it and associating this with the witness might

18 not be fully fair to the witness. So therefore, if you limit yourself to

19 put a few matters to say witness, then to say, well, the whole of it is

20 in evidence may create a suggestion that, since he is on the cover page

21 of this publication, that he would share all what's written in there and

22 that would be perhaps not fully fair.

23 MR. JEREMY: I agree.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We will wait for your further submissions as to what

25 parts, and perhaps you also discuss the matter with Mr. Lukic.

Page 29980

1 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would also note that the witness did

2 say that he contributed to this publication. I accept he hasn't said he

3 contributed to every page, but --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. JEREMY: -- that's how he's testified.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that. That's exactly the reason

7 why I'm cautious. We will hear from you but we already reserve a number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: 06616 receives P7015, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Sir, I'd like now to take a look at your statement in this case.

13 MR. JEREMY: And that's D861. And in particular I'd like to look

14 at paragraph 7, please. It's page 3 in each language.

15 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to focus your attention on -- I'd like --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber would like you to be aware

17 that it found in paragraph 7 a lot of sweeping statements and not a lot

18 of facts. That's how it was presented. And as you know, the Chamber is

19 interested primarily in receiving evidence on facts and would certainly

20 not encourage further detailed debates about sweeping statements,

21 judgements, opinions, et cetera.

22 Please keep that in the back of your mind.

23 MR. JEREMY: That's understood, Your Honours, and my intention is

24 simply to clarify some parts of that paragraph.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 29981

1 MR. JEREMY:

2 Q. Now, sir, I would like to focus on two aspects of this paragraph

3 which I will read to you and then I will ask you some follow-up

4 questions. Now, six or so lines down we read -- well, you refer to going

5 to Muslim villages and speaking to the persons who were there. Now, I

6 will read what you say in paragraph 7:

7 "My main thesis was Muslims, such as Hudo Kurbegovic" -- excuse

8 me.

9 "My main thesis was that the Muslims, as Islamicized Serbs, this

10 time as before, would heed the ill-intended West to inflict as much harm

11 as possible on the Orthodox Serbs."

12 And I'd also like to read you a part in the second half of the

13 last sentence reading:

14 "I also told them in advance that no matter how much they

15 understood me at the time, the primal hatred that existed in them towards

16 their kind from whom they broke away by changing religion would still

17 heed the evil and cunning intentions of the West."

18 Now, sir, when you -- when you refer in this paragraph to Muslim

19 villages you're referring to Muslim villages in Sanski Most; yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you refer to primal hatreds, you're talking about primal

22 hatreds in Muslims towards Serbs; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were touring these Muslim villages in Sanski Most in

25 April and May 1992; yes?

Page 29982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were doing so in your capacity as assistant commander for

3 morale and religious affairs in the 6th Brigade; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I'd like to move on to a different topic.

6 We can leave this paragraph.

7 Now, sir, you are aware that in early November 1992, nine

8 civilians from Skrljevita village were murdered in Sanski Most?

9 Sir, should I repeat the question?

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should wait for the interpretation to be

11 finished.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand it.

13 MR. JEREMY: Okay, forgive me.

14 Q. Sir, are you aware that in early November 1992, nine civilians

15 from Skrljevita were murdered? They were shot. You're aware of that,

16 yes?

17 A. I cannot remember that now. If there is a document or anything

18 that would confirm that, perhaps I could. Is that the case where

19 Danilusko committed these killings?

20 Q. Yes, that's one of them. Does that refresh your recollection?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Now having had your recollection refreshed, do you recall

23 discussing this event at a meeting of the Sanski Most Executive Committee

24 on the 10th of November, 1992?

25 A. I cannot remember. If there is a document that I could see,

Page 29983

1 perhaps then I could.

2 Q. Yes.

3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please take a look at such a document.

4 It's 65 ter 31785.

5 Q. And, sir, while that's being brought up, I can tell you that they

6 are the minutes of the extraordinary session of the Executive Committee

7 of the Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most, and they are dated the

8 10th of November, 1992.

9 So, sir, on the screen before us we have those minutes. And we

10 see that they are indeed dated the 10th of November, 1992, so nine days

11 or so after the events in Skrljevita. And I will note that ten or so

12 lines down we see -- we read that:

13 "In addition to the members of the Executive Committee, the

14 session was also attended by ..."

15 And we have a list of attendees including Boro Tadic. That would

16 have been you; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'd like to focus your attention on some comments that we

19 see from Mirko Vrucinic.

20 MR. JEREMY: And if we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S, please.

21 Q. Now, sir, Mirko Vrucinic was the chief of the Sanski Most Public

22 Security Station; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, in the third sentence below his name, we read that:

25 "On the 1st of November, 1992, nine members of Skrljevita village

Page 29984

1 were killed. They were ordinary people who were not extremists; the

2 motive was retaliation for the fallen soldiers from Krihare."

3 Now, sir, does that refresh your recollection of this meeting?

4 I saw you -- you nodded, could you articulate an answer for the

5 record?

6 A. Yes, I'm getting into this bit by bit.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 2 in the English and

9 page 3 in the B/C/S.

10 Q. And I'd like to show you some comments from Vlado Vrkes. And

11 these are near the top of the page.

12 MR. JEREMY: And page 3 in the B/C/S.

13 Q. And five or six lines from below his name. We read --

14 MR. JEREMY: And, I'm sorry, in the English it's two-thirds of

15 the way down on page 2.

16 Q. And we see there that he suggests that a visit should be paid to

17 General Talic to inform him about all these acts, and we see that he

18 says:

19 "Proceedings have to be instituted against perpetrators of these

20 unlawful acts."

21 And I would like to look at the conclusions from this meeting.

22 MR. JEREMY: If we could please go to page 4 in the English and 5

23 in the B/C/S.

24 Q. And about halfway down the page we see a list of conclusions. I

25 would like to focus on number 2, where we read:

Page 29985

1 "Arrange a visit to the Command of the 1st Krajina Corps...," and

2 "... inform the corps commander about the situation of the

3 municipality ..."

4 It goes on and lists the names of the delegation. And,

5 Mr. Tadic, you're listed as one of those members of the delegation in

6 your capacity as chief of the Sanski Most department of the Ministry of

7 Defence. Can you confirm that you were in fact part of that delegation

8 that went to see General Talic?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. Sir, could you --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I -- yes, I heard the witness answer the question

12 but there was no interpretation.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Sir, could you repeat your answer, please?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, that delegation discussed with General Talic these events in

17 Skrljevita; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recall General Talic's position in respect of these

20 events?

21 A. I cannot recall that, no.

22 Q. Now, this Court has received evidence that of the four men

23 accused of these events, two of them - Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vukic -

24 were under 18 at the time of the events. So they were minors. Now, were

25 you or are you aware that two of those men were under 18 at the time of

Page 29986

1 these events in Skrljevita?

2 A. This is the first time that I'm hearing of it. I mean, I didn't

3 really follow that much. But any incident or any killing really caused

4 me a lot of pain, not only because of the other peoples but also because

5 of my own people, because of the fact that nothing would be left except

6 evil.

7 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you a document in connection with these two

8 men.

9 MR. JEREMY: And could we please see 65 ter 16467.

10 And, Your Honours, I'd like to tender those minutes that we just

11 saw, 65 ter 31785.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31785 receives Exhibit Number P7016,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: P7016 is admitted into evidence.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, sir, we see on our screens before us a document from the

18 Banja Luka military court. It's dated the 9th of December, 1992. And we

19 see in the top right corner of the original the stamp of the military

20 prosecutor's office and the 1st Krajina Corps command. Now, in the first

21 paragraph we -- we see that the investigating judge of the Banja Luka

22 military court in the case of Kajtez et al. has decided to sever the case

23 against Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vokic.

24 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to page 2 in the English, please.

25 Q. And next to Roman numeral II, halfway down the page in the B/C/S,

Page 29987

1 towards the top of the page in the English, we read:

2 "The severed case files relating to underage Goran Vukojevic and

3 Todo Vokic are passed onto the authority of a judge for minors of the

4 Sanski Most lower court for special proceedings pursuant to provisions in

5 the 27th chapter of the Law on Criminal Procedure."

6 Now, sir, seeing this document does that refresh your

7 recollection about these proceedings?

8 A. Actually, I only now understand it. I thought that we were

9 talking about those who were killed but were under 18, but on the basis

10 of this I understand that this is about those who actually committed the

11 killing but were under 18. I don't know very much about it. I know very

12 little about it. I was informed about it then at the Executive Board

13 meeting, and I was in that delegation. And I'm sure I said the kind of

14 things that I would say now, that this was a -- a major evil that we

15 Serbs were committing against ourselves. I always said the same thing,

16 and I can see that this was committed by two persons who were under 18.

17 I'm only now getting that fact.

18 But I really wasn't all that much involved in this because I was

19 working in the Ministry of Defence section that was dealing with the

20 mobilisation of people and assets, and I had so much work to do that I

21 didn't have time to get involved in other things that were not part of my

22 job description. But I welcomed every act that Republika Srpska carried

23 out against the evil within ourselves.

24 Q. Sir, you mentioned in your lengthy answer that you were, among

25 other things, responsible for mobilisation. Now, you were aware or are

Page 29988

1 you aware that despite the charges against Goran Vukojevic, he was the

2 very next year mobilised into the VRS?

3 A. I don't know. We did have records of young men who were 17 and

4 recruited, and it's possible that he, like all the others, was entered

5 into the records and recruited into the Army of Republika Srpska. This

6 could easily be the case.

7 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to go to one such record, and before I do,

8 Your Honours, could I tender that document.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16467 receives Exhibit Number P7017,

11 Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P7017 is admitted.

13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Could we please see 65 ter 06514.

15 Q. And, sir, as this is being brought up I can tell you it's a

16 stamped certificate issued by the RS Ministry of Defence, Sanski Most

17 department certifying that Goran Vukojevic served in the forces in

18 Banja Luka during a particular period.

19 So we now have the certificate on the screen before us. And we

20 see it is from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence, department of

21 Sanski Most. We see the date is the 15th of December, 1994. And we see

22 that it -- the document is issued at the request of Vukojevic, Goran,

23 from Kruhari. And there is a certificate. It certified that

24 Goran Vukojevic from Kruhari, born in 1975, served in the military

25 service in the period from 18th of June, 1993, to the 21st of February,

Page 29989

1 1994. And his unit is listed. And we read that he is still engaged as a

2 member of reserve formation. And we read that the certificate is issued

3 and used for and then we read "justification of absence at the court

4 procedure in Banja Luka," and it's signed by Chief Boro Tadic.

5 So firstly, Mr. Tadic, do you recall signing this particular

6 document?

7 A. I signed thousands of documents, but it's a sure thing that I did

8 not sign anything that was inaccurate because I see on the basis of this

9 that he served his regular term of duty and that he asked for leave and

10 he was granted what he was requesting. And it's true that according to

11 this document he did serve his regular military term of duty in that

12 time-period, and perhaps he was getting summonses, but it seems that he

13 needed that in order for him to justify his absence from the trial. But

14 I see that this certificate was issued with that intention. But it does

15 confirm the fact that during that time-period he was a member of the

16 military.

17 Q. So, sir, on the basis of your answer do I understand it correctly

18 that it was the case that even if criminal proceedings had been initiated

19 against you for an event as serious as the events in Skrljevita, military

20 service could excuse you from those proceedings; is that correct?

21 A. A witness is not somebody -- oh, a person is not guilty unless

22 it's proven or unless they've been sentenced. So they are expected to

23 carry out their regular duties, the things they need to do in life. And

24 probably because he was not in detention, he was free, and so he could

25 not have been considered guilty, regardless of the indictment, until the

Page 29990

1 trial had been finished. So if he had responded to the summons, he did

2 what he needed to do. Had he been in detention, had he been in

3 investigative prison, then this kind of thing could not have happened.

4 Q. But, sir, this document, as I read it, is justifying the absence

5 of Goran Vukojevic from the court procedure in Banja Luka. So at least

6 on face value it suggests to me that there were proceedings that were

7 going on but Mr. Vukojevic wasn't present at those proceedings because

8 instead he was serving in the VRS?

9 A. Yes. Probably he was summoned during the time that he was

10 serving his military term of duty. I cannot remember the details right

11 now. But by that logic, while he was serving in the military he received

12 a summons. That is what would be logical. But I cannot recall any

13 details.

14 Q. But, sir, my question very simply is: The fact is -- if he did

15 receive a summons, was the fact that he was serving in the military a

16 sufficient reason for him not to respond to that summons?

17 JUDGE ORIE: You're asking for judgement, Mr. Jeremy. So please

18 rephrase your question.

19 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'm actually prepared to rely on the

20 answers that I've already got from the witness on this particular

21 document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then put your next question to the witness. Perhaps

23 after the break because we're at the time for a break. Are you on

24 schedule as far as time is concerned, Mr. Jeremy?

25 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. I estimated two and a half hours

Page 29991

1 and I hope I will come in somewhere under that.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You indicated two hours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's at least what was our information, that

4 you asked for two hours, but please verify that. And I do understand

5 that you would certainly not need two and a half hours, which --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you tender this document which is on the

7 screen?

8 MR. JEREMY: I do, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06514 receives Exhibit P7018,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P7018 is admitted into evidence.

14 Mr. Tadic, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

15 You may follow the usher.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, just to respond to the question that

18 you asked of me a moment ago. We revised the time for this witness up to

19 two and a half hours via e-mail on the 10th of December at 1528.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we may have missed that.

21 MR. JEREMY: [Overlapping speakers] -- an informal communication.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We may have missed that. And we'll now take a

23 break and the time estimate is that we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

Page 29993

1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Now, sir, the civilian protection staff in Sanski Most formed

3 part of the national defence and were therefore part of your

4 responsibility; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And among other things, the civilian protection staff were

7 responsible for burials of human remains found in Sanski Most during the

8 war period; correct?

9 A. We have to differentiate here. I was responsible for

10 mobilisation of personnel and material assets for the civilian

11 protection, but I was not authorised to decide on the use of civilian

12 protection units or those of the army or those for the obligatory work

13 duty. So my job was to provide the personnel or assets to the civilian

14 protection army and the work-duty units, but those who were carrying out

15 their orders received from higher levels would carry out the assignments.

16 This applied to the army, which had its command, to the enterprises,

17 which had their directors and management system, and the same applied to

18 the civilian protection, which had its own commander who carried out

19 these duties pursuant to the law and the regulations.

20 Q. But, sir, generally speaking, you were aware of the activities

21 that were carried out by the civilian protection force in Sanski Most;

22 correct?

23 A. Sometimes I would be there at a briefing when civilian protection

24 tasks were discussed at the Executive Board. Since I attended the

25 Executive Board sessions only when it pertained to things that had to do

Page 29994

1 with the Ministry of Defence, it's possible that I was sometimes present

2 when issues regarding the use of civilian protection were discussed. I'm

3 not quite sure about it right now. I don't recall the details, but

4 perhaps if there are any documents you can show me, then perhaps we could

5 discuss those issues.

6 Q. Yes. We'll take a look at some documents, sir.

7 MR. JEREMY: And the first one, please, is 65 ter 06444.

8 Q. And while this is being brought up, Mr. Tadic, I can tell you

9 that it's a report about activities of civilian protection headquarters

10 Sanski Most municipality during the period from 15th of July, 1992, to

11 the 15th of October, 1992.

12 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we please go to page 3 in each language.

13 Q. And, Mr. Tadic, as you'll see, the B/C/S document is not as

14 legible as one would hope, so I'd ask you for your patience. Now, sir,

15 I'd like to direct your attention to the paragraph numbered number 1

16 towards the top of the page: "Demolition and sanitation of residential

17 buildings." Now, we see a reference to a joint action of the civilian

18 protection staff and the municipal Ministry for National Defence

19 connecting to a list being made of able-bodied men between 17 to 60.

20 That reference to the municipal Ministry for National Defence, that was

21 part of your responsibility; correct? That's a reference to your

22 department. I see you're nodding. Could you verbalize --

23 A. This is a confirmation of what I have just said. It was my duty

24 to note down the population that could become part or used in the work of

25 the civilian protection. The mobilising of them and passing them on to

Page 29995

1 the units of civilian protection or the civilian protection commander so

2 that they could be used, that was my part. And this is confirmed by this

3 paragraph here, that we did this in co-operation. We worked together on

4 this.

5 Q. Thank you, sir.

6 MR. JEREMY: And could we please zoom in on paragraph -- this

7 paragraph 1, please; particularly, in the B/C/S.

8 Q. Sir, I'd like to look at the last sentence of that. If you can

9 read it.

10 MR. JEREMY: Could we perhaps widen the page a little bit, if

11 possible, for the B/C/S. No.

12 Q. Sir, it reads as follows:

13 "The brigades worked on the demolition and sanitation of

14 residential and religious buildings in the following inhabited areas."

15 Now, the religious buildings being referred to here are mosques;

16 correct?

17 A. I cannot see it here. Is that paragraph 1, item 1?

18 Q. It's the last sentence of paragraph 1 towards the top of the

19 page. Sir, if you can't read that sentence, then I won't ask you to

20 comment on it.

21 A. The only thing that I can say, judging by what I understand here,

22 even though you can't even read it, is that those units were engaged on

23 clearing up the consequences of something that was done. For example,

24 something that was beyond repair. It was demolished, needed to be

25 cleared up so that it would not pose a danger to the people. And the

Page 29996

1 things that could be repaired would be repaired. This is how I

2 understood it.

3 The demolition and sanitation of -- so something that had already

4 been demolished in an action by whoever did that. So that there would be

5 no safety problems, it had to be completely demolished if it couldn't be

6 used anymore or it could not be rebuilt; whereas things that were just

7 slightly damaged could be repaired and used again. This is how I

8 understood what is written -- how I understand what is written here.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tadic, actually you're not being asked to tell

10 us what you understand but tell us what you read there if you are able to

11 read it. We can always give the interpretations that we want to give,

12 but the question really is, and the answer should be very short: Can you

13 read it, and read it if you can. Because now you are putting words into

14 this statement which are not there.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The demolition and sanitation of

16 housing and religious buildings ..."

17 And now there is a part that's difficult. It says "brigades" but

18 this other word is difficult. "Construction." I think that's what it

19 says. "Construction Brigade" or "Brigades," something like that.

20 "Housing Units, Construction Brigades." Something like that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much.

22 MR. JEREMY:

23 Q. Sir, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that at least

24 18 mosques were destroyed in Sanski Most during the period of 1992 to

25 1995. Were you aware of that?

Page 29997

1 A. I was. And I passed by and I could see demolished mosques. I

2 did witness that mosques were demolished. I saw that.

3 Q. And did you see who it was who demolished those mosques?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, I'd like to look at another part of this document.

6 MR. JEREMY: And that's in the paragraph below the one that we've

7 just been looking at. And unfortunately, it's also not the clearest.

8 Q. So, sir, at the bottom --

9 MR. JEREMY: If we could stop there.

10 Q. -- just before B on the screen, there is a sentence that I would

11 like to -- to read -- or I'll read a few sentences up from there, and the

12 subheading of this paragraph is: "In the Town." So we read:

13 "Simultaneously with these activities a considerable amount of

14 time was spent removing debris from the town mosque. These activities

15 are still underway and the exhumation and dislocation of the cemetery

16 next to the town mosque will begin after the adoption of appropriate

17 decisions in the municipal assembly. The machinery that exists in the

18 6th Brigade was also used in these activities."

19 So, sir, we see here that the civil protection headquarters of

20 Sanski Most is anticipating a decision in the municipal assembly to

21 exhume and dislocate the cemetery next to the town mosque. Now, my first

22 question: That cemetery was a Muslim cemetery; correct?

23 A. Yes, probably, next to the mosque.

24 Q. And the decision to exhume that cemetery was, in fact,

25 subsequently taken in February 1993; correct?

Page 29998

1 A. It's possible. It's possible.

2 Q. I'd like to show you a document in connection with that.

3 MR. JEREMY: But before I do, Your Honours, I'd like to tender

4 this document but I -- because the B/C/S is illegible, then I would

5 propose that we MFI the document and we'll -- I will go into the evidence

6 unit and try and find a more legible document.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That would be appreciated. Apparently someone was

8 able to read it, otherwise you couldn't translate it. And -- but, as you

9 are suggesting, we'll MFI it.

10 Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06444 receives P7019, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification.

13 Witness, the last question was about a decision taken in

14 February 1993 to exhume and relocate. You said you don't remember.

15 Don't you remember the date or don't you remember that such a decision

16 was taken?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a member of the assembly.

18 I wasn't a member of the party, of any other party, neither the

19 Serbian Democratic Party or any other political party.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I was not asking whether you were a member

21 of a party. I was asking you whether you were uncertain about that such

22 a decision was taken, sometimes you can know that even if you are not a

23 member of the organ that takes a decision, or that you are uncertain

24 about the date. That was my question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about how I didn't

Page 29999

1 attend sessions very often. I could have been invited only when

2 questions were discussed from my remit. So I cannot remember this,

3 unless there is a document that would help me to remember what that was

4 about. I was not a member of the assembly. I only attended when I was

5 summoned, when issues were discussed that I was responsible for. I mean,

6 it's possible that I did attend. But if there is a document, then I

7 can --

8 JUDGE ORIE: But it is about whether you knew, not about were you

9 responsible, whether or not you attended. Do you know that a decision

10 was taken or do you not know? Your memory --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember as I sit here

14 today.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Witness, I will see if I can refresh your recollection.

18 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31788.

19 Q. And, sir, coming on to our screens are the minutes of the

20 7th Session of the Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly of

21 Sanski Most. And they are dated the 25th of February, 1993. We see

22 those minutes on the screen before us. And I note in the fourth

23 paragraph that:

24 "In addition to the members of the Executive Committee, the

25 following invitees were present ..."

Page 30000

1 And the penultimate name is Boro Tadic. Now, sir, that would

2 have been you; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 3 of these minutes.

6 Q. Now, sir, my first question. Just above item 3, we see the final

7 bullet point is that the work of commission be updated regarding the

8 changing of the street names, squares, and public institutions. Sir,

9 this is a reference to changing the street names, squares, and public

10 institutions that contained Muslim names to Serb names; correct?

11 A. I suppose so. Everybody did that in the same way. Muslims would

12 delete Serb names and the other way around.

13 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about what you did in Sanski Most and what

14 this executive body did. So is that what they are indeed doing, they are

15 changing names from Muslim origin to Serb names?

16 A. That was updating the work of the -- of the commission for

17 renaming of the streets. I don't know whether it was ever done. I

18 suppose there is a report to that effect, to show whether the update was

19 implemented or not. This is just about the updating of the work of that

20 commission. Effectively, it was operational, it existed, and its work

21 was being updated with this. This is how I understand things.

22 Q. I understand it's a reference to an update. But just very

23 simply, when you read this reference to the changing of street names,

24 squares, and public institutions, do you understand this to be the

25 changing of those names from Muslim names to Serb names?

Page 30001

1 A. I suppose that there were such cases as well.

2 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 7 in the English and 6 in

3 the B/C/S. And I would like to focus on item 9 when we get there.

4 Q. Now, under item 9, sir, we read:

5 "The Chairman opened the discussion topic - endorsing draft

6 decision on exhumation of mortal remains from the cemetery in the Centre

7 (next to the mosque) and the cemetery in Zdena (in the vicinity of Sip).

8 "Since there were no participants in the discussion, pursuant to

9 the proposal of the Chairman, the Executive Committee made the following

10 conclusion:

11 "1. The draft decision on exhumation of mortal remains from the

12 cemetery in the centre (next to the mosque) and the cemetery in Zdena (in

13 the vicinity of Sip) is endorsed."

14 Mr. Tadic, the locations referred to here are Muslim cemeteries;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the goal of this decision was to remove traces of Muslims in

18 Sanski Most; correct?

19 A. I don't know the details. For some reason that was done. But

20 about destroying any traces, you can't destroy traces, can you? I really

21 don't see it that way.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you have any doubts, what, in your view,

23 was the reason to do this? What was discussed or not discussed? What

24 was the underlying reason to?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything about that.

Page 30002

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, if --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really was not that much involved

3 in all that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You have no idea, although it was scheduled that

5 meeting, it apparently was an issue that was decided there, but you say:

6 I've got no idea what it was for?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no discussion at all.

8 There was never a discussion on that issue. And why things were done, if

9 they were, I don't know any details. It was not within my remit and I

10 didn't get involved in all that at all.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking about details. I'm asking about what

12 the purpose of exhumation of mortal remains was, from these cemeteries.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't --

14 JUDGE ORIE: If I understand you well, you were taken by

15 surprise. You have no idea why -- well, quite an operational thing would

16 have happened at that point in time with that purpose?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't explain.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.

19 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 I'd like to tender --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we look at the list of attendees of this

22 meeting, please.

23 MR. JEREMY: Yes. Could we go back to page 1, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you say you were not involved in this. You

25 were not part of it. But were you not a member of this meeting, were you

Page 30003

1 not a part of this meeting?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was invited to the meeting of the

3 Executive Board because of --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you how -- just hold it.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- item 4 --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just hold it. I'm not asking you how you came

7 there, whether by invitation or what. You were part of the meeting,

8 isn't it?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And you -- and part of the

11 meeting endorsed the decision, whether it was discussed or not discussed?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not vote. I was a guest.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking whether you voted. I'm saying the

14 meeting endorsed that decision, although it was not discussed.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, you can see that

16 from the record of the meeting.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

19 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. I would like to tender

20 those minutes as the next Prosecution exhibit.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31788 receives Exhibit P7020,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 30004

1 Q. Now, Mr. Tadic, given your responsibilities, were you aware that

2 in 1994 the Banja Luka State Security Department also suggested that

3 efforts were made to excavate Muslim mass graves?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'm puzzled by the use of the word

6 "also." We saw a decision on exhumation of mortal remains from a

7 cemetery, not from any mass graves. So the "also" in the mass grave

8 puzzles me.

9 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. And I'd just rephrase the

10 question and I remove the "also" reference which I concede was

11 misleading.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. So, sir, given your responsibilities, were you aware that in

15 1994, the Banja Luka State Security Department suggested that efforts

16 were made to excavate Muslim mass graves?

17 A. No, no, I'm not abreast of that.

18 MR. JEREMY: Can we see 65 ter 31795.

19 Q. Sir, on our screens is a document from the state security

20 department of Banja Luka, Prijedor detachment, and we see that it's dated

21 28th of March, 1994. And it's an Official Note. Now, in the first

22 paragraph we read that:

23 "During 1992 there were several armed clashes with Muslim

24 paramilitary formations in the Sanski Most area, concentrated mainly in

25 the villages of Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Trnovo, Lukavica, and Modra."

Page 30005

1 Now, sir, you were aware of those locations in Sanski Most;

2 correct?

3 A. I know. I know these places.

4 Q. Now, I understand from your Karadzic testimony that you were not

5 present during the operations by the 6th Brigade at the end of May and at

6 the start of June in, for example, Vrhpolje and Hrustovo; is that

7 correct?

8 A. I was not present.

9 Q. Okay. Now in the next paragraph we see the following. We see a

10 reference to Muslim extremists who have moved members of their family to

11 other areas before the outbreak of those clashes, and we read that they

12 were killed in this fighting. We read:

13 "Because of this, they were buried in common graves by members of

14 their own people, neighbours, and other people employed by the competent

15 organs."

16 Now, those "other persons employed by the competent organs" would

17 have included the civil defence, civil protection unit; correct?

18 A. I can't say anything. I guess that organisation was there.

19 Q. Now, we read:

20 "Following the cessation of fighting in these areas, some people

21 took part in burying those killed left our area in convoys, on release

22 from the Manjaca camp and in other ways."

23 And it goes on to say that their information has been used as

24 Muslim propaganda, Muslim media propaganda to increase pressure against

25 Serbian people.

Page 30006

1 MR. JEREMY: Can we go to the next page in the English, please.

2 Q. Now, sir, in the final sentence we read that the -- the state

3 security department measures, as a suggestion we read:

4 To counter such occurrences and to prevent in good time the use

5 of such events for propaganda purposes and pressure on the Serbian

6 people, we believe that it is necessary to suggest that the relevant

7 institutions activate the competent organs in Sanski Most to sanitize the

8 locations in question.

9 Now, sir, this last paragraph is about hiding Muslim mass graves;

10 correct?

11 A. That's one way of interpreting it. However, I was not at all the

12 involved in all that. Therefore, I have nothing to say about it. There

13 was a lot of propaganda, that is true. And every shortcoming on our

14 side - and there was some, of course - was used in propaganda and to

15 increase pressure on the Serbian people instead of those who created the

16 evil and caused the war.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was about what was envisaged

18 to be done. Your answer is not about that apart from the beginning where

19 you said: "That's one way of interpreting it." However, you were not at

20 all involved in that. May I take it then also that you mean to say by

21 that that you have no knowledge about it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember. Because this

23 word, "sanitization" --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

25 You don't have to explain why you don't remember. You don't --

Page 30007

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.

3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. I would like to tender

4 that document as the next Prosecution exhibit.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31795 receives Exhibit Number P7021,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

9 MR. JEREMY:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Tadic, in your capacity as the head of the Ministry of

11 Defence in -- of Republika Srpska in Sanski Most, you were responsible

12 for work obligation in the municipality; correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And those non-Serbs that remained in Sanski Most during the war

15 period were subject to the work obligation; correct?

16 A. For a while they were not. Security conditions would not allow

17 for that. When it was decided that things could be arranged and that

18 people could be engaged safely, the Ministry of Defence of

19 Republika Srpska issued an order to that effect. There were priorly set

20 up obligation units and Serbs were mobilised into companies and

21 institutions and so on and so forth. However, when it was assessed that

22 Muslims and Croats could be engaged and that security issues could easily

23 be avoided, that no major incidents could be expected, we wanted to

24 include them and incorporate them to everyday life.

25 Q. Okay. I'd like to look at a document in connection with those

Page 30008

1 duties that you performed and in relation to these work obligations.

2 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31792.

3 Q. And, sir, this is a report which I think you'll recognise. It's

4 dated the 5th of October, 1994.

5 MR. JEREMY: If we could go to page 2, please, in each language.

6 Q. And, sir, we see your name at the bottom of the page and your

7 signature. Do you recognise your signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. JEREMY: Could we go back to page 1, please.

11 Q. Now, sir, we see that this is a letter from the RS Ministry of

12 Defence, Banja Luka district, department of Sanski Most. Dated the

13 5th of October, 1994. It's addressed to the Executive Board of

14 Sanski Most municipality -- sorry, Municipal Assembly, and to the command

15 of the Sana 6th Infantry Brigade. Now, the subject is: "Deployment of

16 Work Obligation Units."

17 I would like to look at one or two paragraphs of this document.

18 In the first paragraph we read that:

19 "Over the past 16 months, the Ministry of Defence Department of

20 Sanski Most has deployed work obligation units consisting of non-Serbs,

21 as requested by the VRS and various enterprises, institutions, and

22 individuals."

23 In the next paragraph, in the second sentence, we read that:

24 "... units comprising non-Serbs began to be utilised," and in the

25 sentence before we see from May 1993, "while the other units made up of

Page 30009

1 Serbs never were."

2 And now, sir, you were responsible for this -- these

3 mobilisations of these non-Serbs; correct?

4 A. This is about me being tasked with mobilising people with --

5 talking to them about their future work. And in the second text, it says

6 that the utilisation of those units should be handed over to the

7 Executive Board because, pursuant to that order, they were supposed to

8 implement that work. We were in charge of mobilising and sending people

9 to various places on requests by the military, by the civilian

10 protection, by various institutions and so on and so forth.

11 And here, I really don't understand this sentence. I know that

12 Serbs were utilised. I don't see why it says "while the other units made

13 up of Serbs never were." I really can't make a logical link because I

14 know that there were, i.e. the Serbs were, in work obligation units and

15 they were deployed wherever needed in all the institutions that requested

16 them; whereas Muslims were not before the conditions were put in place

17 for them to participate without expecting any major issues. That is why

18 the units that had been set up were dispatched on the requests of the

19 military, companies, and other institutions. And here the point of all

20 this, of this report, is that the Executive Board should be more involved

21 in the utilisation of those units. I can see that there were not enough

22 people employed for that purpose.

23 Q. Sir, do you have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the

24 original document that you see on the screen before you, the copy of the

25 original document?

Page 30010

1 A. No, no, I don't have a reason for that.

2 MR. JEREMY: Now, could we please go to page 3 in each language.

3 Q. Now, sir, this is a table and it is headed: "Overview of

4 Deployment of the Work Obligation Units Composed of Non-Serbs in the

5 Municipality of Sanski Most." And down the left side we see the various

6 locations from which non-Serbs originated and the right side we see the

7 total of those persons from those locations and that total runs into the

8 hundreds.

9 Now, sir, it was your task to select from the available

10 population of non-Serbs in Sanski Most those persons who you considered

11 fit for various jobs and to send them along to perform those jobs;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. JEREMY: Now, Your Honours, before I ask the witness the next

15 question, I wonder if it's -- I'd ask that you inform the witness of his

16 rights --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. JEREMY: -- under Rule 90(E).

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in view of the next questions that will be

20 put to you, Mr. Jeremy asked me to inform you about the following.

21 Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence reads as

22 follows:

23 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

24 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

25 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

Page 30011

1 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

2 offence other than false testimony."

3 In short, if a truthful answer to any of the questions that will

4 follow would possibly be incriminating for yourself, you may address me

5 and ask to be relieved from answering that question. Is that clear?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

8 MR. JEREMY:

9 Q. Now, Mr. Tadic, of the jobs that you sent non-Serbs to complete,

10 you sent a number of those non-Serbs to the front line to, for example,

11 dig trenches, and in doing so you sent many non-Serbs to their deaths;

12 correct?

13 A. It is just like using a Serb to send him to the army. It was

14 wartime --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and there was a need --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, simple question: Did you send a number of

18 those non-Serbs to the front line? That's the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, sending somebody to the

22 regular military. Now, where that person is going to be utilised, it's

23 up to the military. It was at the request of the military, a certain

24 number of people were engaged and sent to various commands. For example,

25 companies, both socially owned and private companies, relied on the same

Page 30012

1 system. Just like Serbs were mobilised into the military, Muslims,

2 Croats, or whoever were mobilised at the request of the army, and they

3 were handed over to the organisation that requested them, either the

4 military or a private company or a socially owned company. From that

5 moment on it is those companies that requested them that decided how to

6 use them.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And would they -- a number of them be sent to the

8 front?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite possible. It is possible

10 that they were used by the military for certain tasks.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Either the delivery of food and

13 water or --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Witness, that's not what you were asked. So

15 you say it's possible that they were sent to the front. Do you have any

16 knowledge whether they were sent there and had to dig trenches? If you

17 have knowledge, please tell us. If you don't have any knowledge, please

18 tell us as well.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they were deployed in

20 that way, but I don't know anything specific. I know that I handed them

21 over to the military, to be used by the military. And it says in this

22 table here. It says in the table the military, the front line.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "I know they were deployed in that

24 way ..." My question was about digging trenches. Do I understand you to

25 say that they were deployed in, perhaps among other things, also in

Page 30013

1 digging trenches?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge, no details. I

3 can't confirm any of this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the last part of the question was

5 whether you know whether some persons sent to the military under this

6 work obligation, whether they did not return because they died?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many returned -- actually, many

8 dead Serbian soldiers returned. There were many things going on on a

9 daily basis. People being killed left and right --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, why not answer my question. My question

11 was whether some of those who were sent there under the work obligation

12 to the army, whether some of them did not return because they died. I am

13 not asking who returned, but I'm asking whether some did not return

14 because they had died when fulfilling that obligation.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've no specific knowledge.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Sir, you earlier confirmed today that you testified in the

19 Karadzic case and that the answers you gave in that case were truthful.

20 I'd like to show you a portion of your testimony in that case.

21 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31781 on our screens.

22 And I'd like to tender the document we were just looking at.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31792 receives Exhibit Number P7022,

25 Your Honours.

Page 30014

1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

2 MR. JEREMY: And could we go to page 48, please.

3 Q. And, sir, I'm afraid we don't have a B/C/S translation of this

4 transcript, so you'll need to listen to the translation. I'll read out

5 the portion I want you to pay attention to and it will be translated to

6 you.

7 And, sir, I'm going to focus on questions that were put to you in

8 relation to the same document that we have just looked at, just one

9 question and your answer.

10 MR. JEREMY: So if we could focus on -- into line 7 and below,

11 please.

12 Q. And we see that the Prosecutor asked you the following question:

13 "Q. Sending them wherever they were needed included sending them

14 to the front line and sending them to clear minefields and sending them

15 to their deaths; isn't that correct?"

16 Your answer:

17 "I sent many more Serbs to their deaths. This is all about

18 113 people being sent to the front line. We, however, sent thousands

19 upon thousands to the front lines. If I sent thousands of Serbs to the

20 front line, why wouldn't I send a hundred Muslims to carry water, to dig

21 trenches, and so on and so forth?"

22 And I'll end it there. So do you stand by the answer that you

23 provided in the Karadzic case?

24 A. The use of those units was defined by order --

25 Q. Sir, sir --

Page 30015

1 A. I mobilised --

2 Q. -- I'm very sorry to interrupt you. But just very simply: Was

3 the answer that you gave during your testimony in the Karadzic case

4 truthful and do you stand by that answer today?

5 A. My answer was truthful. When discussing the topic where I was

6 more tense than I am now, I said that the use of such units for work

7 obligation was logical in my view so that Muslims and Croats, too, would

8 be included in the events, given the fact that there was war, and they

9 were simply made part of the defence system. They were not given weapons

10 so as not to be forced to shoot at their compatriots but to assist the

11 army in the performance of its tasks. As per order which I received,

12 that's how things were implemented.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. So your answer was truthful and you stand by

14 that in this courtroom; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, sir, my final question: In your statement in paragraph 9,

17 you refer to respect for humanitarian law and the laws of war, and in

18 particular the Geneva Conventions. Now, do you consider sending

19 non-Serbs to the front lines to be consistent and compatible with the

20 Geneva Conventions?

21 A. It depends on the manner of use.

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. If they were indeed used as a human shield, that would be against

24 the conventions. But if they were used to bring water and food and to

25 assist with noncombat tasks, that would not fall under that category.

Page 30016

1 Q. Sir --

2 A. So it's important that they are not used as a human shield, as

3 someone who would be directly exposed to enemy attack. I certainly hope

4 that there were no such situations.

5 Q. So, sir, sending Serbs [sic] to the front lines to dig trenches,

6 as you said in the Karadzic case and you've repeated here, do you

7 consider that to be consistent with the Geneva Conventions?

8 A. The sending of Serbs?

9 Q. The sending of non-Serbs was my question, or it should have been.

10 A. It was interpreted to me as "the Serbs." In my view, any

11 inhumane treatment, including exposing someone to enemy fire, would be in

12 contravention of God's law and human law, thus being against the

13 Geneva Convention. I condemn any exposure of such people to a danger of

14 being killed by the enemy side. In my view, it would cause great damage

15 to the Serb people and the Army of Republika Srpska. I therefore engaged

16 those people as per army request under the understanding that they would

17 be used in a way that would not threaten their life and security.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I will stop you again. After ten lines

19 you've still not answered the question.

20 Do you consider digging trenches to be among -- digging trenches

21 by non-Serbs, do you consider that to be in violation of the

22 Geneva Conventions?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does if they are exposed to

24 direct gun-fire and in a position to be killed. So the difference is in

25 how they're used and what the assessment of the officer concerned was at

Page 30017

1 that moment, whether they were wilfully putting those people in danger to

2 be killed. If that was the intent of the officer concerned, then that

3 would be against the conventions. But if their security was borne in

4 mind and if they were used only for tasks that would not endanger their

5 lives, in my view that would not be against the rules as envisaged.

6 The intention was not to use those people so as to protect

7 Serbian lives. That would not have been a good situation. I would never

8 have participated in any such thing had I had any knowledge of any such

9 use.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you draw a very fine line, digging trenches

11 with danger and digging trenches without danger of being fired at. Could

12 you tell us where in the Geneva Conventions you find the basis for this

13 distinction?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I make that distinction in my heart

15 of hearts. If Republika Srpska --

16 JUDGE ORIE: No. So it means that you make that distinction --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intent is key.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, I was asking you where in the

19 Geneva Conventions you find the basis for making that distinction and

20 your answer tells me that it was not actually on the basis of the

21 Geneva Conventions that you made that distinction.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, that was your last question?

24 MR. JEREMY: It was, Your Honours. Thank you.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tadic.

Page 30019

1 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tadic, you'll now be re-examined by Mr. Lukic.

5 May I again remind you that you are expected to answer the question,

6 first of all.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon yet again, Mr. Tadic.

11 A. Godspeed.

12 Q. We do not have much time and yet we have to conclude, so I would

13 kindly ask for brief answers.

14 MR. LUKIC: If we can have P7016, please, on our screens.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic, you were shown these minutes from the

16 extraordinary meeting of the Executive Committee, and we saw already that

17 you were in attendance.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the next page -- in the B/C/S it

19 is actually the next page and in English it is the same page.

20 Q. You were told that on the 1st of November, 1992, which is at the

21 top of the page, nine members from Skrljevita were killed. A conclusion

22 was reached --

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English, page 4; in B/C/S, 5.

24 Q. -- to the effect that General Talic should be informed

25 accordingly. You were a member of the commission. Do you remember what

Page 30020

1 you were told? Were you told to cover anything up or to go public with

2 it or to speak to Talic or to demand action? What was the task you

3 received?

4 A. I do not recall the details, but as far as I can remember there

5 was nothing to hide and that's what I firmly believe in. God sees

6 everything and people can only try hiding things but to no avail. That

7 is why it was useful to discuss any evil that we may have perpetrated

8 upon another. That would be it.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P7017, briefly.

11 Q. It is a decision to separate or split up proceedings. It is not

12 on the screen yet. It concerns minors Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vokic.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Goran Vukojevic and

14 Todo Vokic."

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. It was established that on that given date they were minors. As

17 such, could they have been mobilised in the JNA or the VRS?

18 A. Later, yes, once they reached their 18th birthday, but not

19 before.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P7020.

21 Q. It is the minutes of the 7th Session of the Executive Committee

22 of the Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most. We see your name appearing on

23 the first page; thus, you were in attendance with the members of the

24 Executive Committee. In item 9 --

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S it is page 6, in the

Page 30021

1 English version, page 7. Just to remind you.

2 Q. Item 9, point 1, it reads:

3 "A draft decision on the exhumation of mortal remains from the

4 cemetery in the town centre ... and the cemetery in Zdena" is thus

5 endorsed.

6 Is Zdena a village?

7 A. It is in the outskirts of the town. It is a settlement, part of

8 the town in the outskirts.

9 Q. In the municipality of Sanski Most, were these the only two

10 Muslim cemeteries?

11 A. No, there were many, many more. I don't know how many exactly

12 but around 50 or so.

13 Q. Thank you. We see in item 4 --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the previous question was about the

15 municipality of Sanski Most.

16 How many Muslim cemeteries were there in the town of Sanski Most,

17 could you tell us?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hail from Palanka, 25 kilometres

19 to the west, so I don't know Sanski Most in detail. Around a dozen in

20 all likelihood.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that's a calculated guess I then take

22 it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have no other means of

24 calculating it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 30022

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] In any case, would you say that even if these

3 two cemeteries were completely destroyed and eradicated, would that have

4 done away with all traces of Muslim cemeteries in the municipality of

5 Sanski Most?

6 A. Definitely not, and that was certainly not the intention. I

7 can't remember what the reason was, though. There must be one but I

8 don't remember it. In any case, this was not the reason.

9 Q. Thank you. Under 4 in the same document - we have it on our

10 screens - we can see that the chairman called the meeting to order and

11 spoke about the record of military conscripts. It says here that

12 Boro Tadic spoke about the record that had been established by way of

13 introduction. Was that your main role at the meeting?

14 A. Yes, yes. And there was always a struggle as to how many people

15 should be kept in companies and how many should be sent to the theatre of

16 war, and we can see that people in the companies wanted to keep as many

17 people as possible in order to maintain production, and the military

18 wanted their share. So there was always a struggle between the two.

19 Q. Thank you. I don't know whether you remember whether you stayed

20 at the very end of the session. Would you usually stay until the end or

21 would you leave after submitting your report?

22 A. I probably left because I attended only as a guest only because

23 of the item that I reported on. I was not a member of the

24 Executive Board, and if I'd stayed, I would have had to get involved and

25 discuss issues under other items of the agenda.

Page 30023

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7022 for a

2 moment.

3 Q. It will be the last document that I intend to show you. My

4 learned friend Mr. Jeremy showed you this document about the deployment

5 of work obligation units. We saw your signature at the end of page 2.

6 But before that, we have a list of those who were deployed; i.e., those

7 who had been mobilised. At that time under the law, were Muslims and

8 Croats exempt from mobilisation?

9 A. No, they were citizens of Republika Srpska.

10 Q. You were a battalion commander in Croatia. In Croatia did

11 Serbian soldiers dig trenches?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. Do you know whether Serbian soldiers were digging trenches in the

14 war in Bosnia?

15 A. I was not a commander there, but I suppose that they did dig

16 trenches.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we continue in this line, is the

18 underlying thought that soldiers would not dig trenches for their own

19 army?

20 MR. LUKIC: No, it's absolutely not. No --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I --

22 MR. LUKIC: I think it's normal that somebody who is mobilised

23 should dig trenches.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, members of the army.

25 MR. LUKIC: I said to the first line, so it's normal for me.

Page 30024

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Then I misunderstood.

2 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Yeah.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- please proceed.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

5 Q. [Interpretation] While you were in the process of creating those

6 work obligation units, were there any interventions by Serbs to be

7 transferred from war units to work obligation units? We have not

8 discussed that ever before. I'm asking you now.

9 A. There was a lot of pressure put on me to bear. Many wanted not

10 to be in the army for various reasons. And then when they had spoken

11 with their company directors and agreed on certain things, they would put

12 pressure on me to include them in a work obligation unit in that company.

13 You can see, for example, Srecko Bulj [phoen], who spoke at that session,

14 insisted to have as many people in the company who would work for him.

15 There was a constant pressure put on me to bear to move people

16 from war units to work obligation units to the companies that wanted to

17 maintain their production. It was a constant tug-of-war, a constant

18 pressure put on me to bear to strike a certain balance. On the one hand,

19 there was the military who wanted to have as many military conscripts for

20 war operations, the brigades were deployed all over the place; and on the

21 other hand, there were the needs of the companies and municipalities to

22 maintain production and to have as many assets as possible in operation.

23 Q. I don't know whether you can tell us or whether -- if you can

24 tell us -- if you can assess what was safer: To be a member of a war

25 unit or a work obligation unit?