Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29941

 1                           Wednesday, 17 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminary matters to be raised immediately, if I

12     understand well.  Therefore, the witness may be escorted into the

13     courtroom.

14             Yes, there is, however, one matter which is about scheduling in

15     January.  We discussed it earlier.  The Chamber announces that for

16     reasons related to the scheduling of witnesses, the week of the 12th of

17     January shall be a non-sitting week and that in the week following, that

18     we'll sit for the full five days of that week.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20                           WITNESS:  RATO RUNJEVAC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Runjevac.  Perhaps needless to do

24     but I still want to remind you --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 29942

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I still want to remind you that you are still bound

 2     by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your

 3     testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

 4     the truth.

 5             Mr. Stojanovic, I think you had put all your questions to the

 6     witness but you were still -- you still have to read a short summary - a

 7     short summary, I say - of the testimony of this witness as found in the

 8     statement.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

10     tried to make it short as agreed, and I hope that I will keep to the

11     number of lines that you gave us.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

13     summary.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Rato Runjevac is a lawyer who --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters have not received a

16     text, so therefore would you please read at decent speed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.  Although

18     I think that I gave the summary yesterday.  It's the same text.  Very

19     well.

20             He's a lawyer who happened to be in Sarajevo when the war broke

21     out.  At the time, he was the senior public prosecutor.  On the

22     21st of May, 1992, he notes that with the arrival of the national parties

23     and when they took up power at the republican level, people started

24     taking over positions in the justice system but his position remained the

25     same.

Page 29943

 1             At the time in the city of Sarajevo, the greatest problems were

 2     posed by armed incidents and drug trades, and these acts were committed

 3     by Juka Prazina, Celo Bajramovic, and others, due to which as part of his

 4     duties he sought that meetings be held of all relevant prosecutors and

 5     the B and H MUP in order to step up activities relating to the issuance

 6     of criminal reports and the criminal prosecution of persons who were

 7     making the security situation worse.

 8             He's going to talk about specific examples of the different views

 9     of the reasons for the disruption of the security situation in Rogatica

10     and Sokolac and the opportunistic attitude of the local authorities

11     regarding incidents caused by Juka Prazina in Sarajevo, as well as the

12     fact that nothing was done and there were no criminal proceedings against

13     the brothers Sabanovic in Visegrad.  He will also talk about the support

14     that these persons received from Alija Izetbegovic instead of him

15     actually insisting that they should be criminally charged.

16             He notes that following the well-known incident when the Serbian

17     best man was killed in Bascarsija, he asked the authorised public

18     prosecutor's office in Sarajevo to provide him the case files regarding

19     this incident.  And then in the police part of the case, he could see

20     that witnesses recognised the person who fired the shots but the

21     policemen released that person.

22             In the meantime, the rump B and H Parliament decided

23     anti-constitutionally to hold a referendum on independence, and this

24     caused inter-ethnic tensions to rise to the ultimate degree.  So in view

25     of the experiences with the barricades, people started taking their

Page 29944

 1     families out of Sarajevo and then they would return to Sarajevo.  The

 2     witness himself decided to do that.

 3             Also, in those days in April 1992, he noticed armed people in

 4     Sarajevo.  He could see that there was shooting all over town.  He

 5     received information that there were first casualties.  He was threatened

 6     by his neighbour that he would be killed for no reason at all.  And on

 7     the eve of the 1st of May holiday, he decided to go to the village where

 8     his children were, his children invited him to do that.  On the way there

 9     he saw a number of check-points near villages with armed people, both

10     Serb and Bosniak ones.  Since he could no longer return to his job

11     because of the escalating conflict, he remained in Trebinje until the end

12     of the war.

13             Your Honours, this was the summary of the statement for

14     Witness Rato Runjevac, and I would like to thank the witness for

15     answering my questions.  This would be the end of our presentation

16     regarding this witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?

19             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

21             Witness, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. File.  You find

22     him to your right, and Mr. File is counsel for the Prosecution.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. File:

Page 29945

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Runjevac.

 2        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 3        Q.   I'm going to begin by asking you a few questions about your

 4     background.  You discuss your professional background in paragraph 2 of

 5     your statement.  There the only mention of any time that you spent in the

 6     military is where you say you completed your military service in

 7     June 1975.  So is it correct to say that the only time you were in the

 8     military was in 1975 or earlier?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] I was not in the army before 1975.  I was in the

10     army in 1974, in Osinjak, that's where I served my military term of duty.

11        Q.   And you were never employed in the military justice system;

12     correct?

13        A.   Before or after?  [In English] No.  [Interpretation] No.

14        Q.   I would like to turn your attention to paragraph 19 of your

15     statement; specifically, the part where you refer to seeing two of your

16     neighbours with guns that they should not have had, as you say.  And then

17     you conclude the paragraph stating:

18             "All this told me that my Bosniak neighbours had long had their

19     sources for purchasing weapons that civilians could not have according to

20     the law, only authorised officials."

21             MR. FILE:  And, Your Honours, this is D860 in e-court.  For

22     reference it's page 9 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   Now, my question for you is:  Here are you drawing a conclusion

24     about all of your Bosnian Muslim neighbours or just the two that you saw

25     with weapons?

Page 29946

 1        A.   I only saw the two of them with weapons.

 2        Q.   And you did not know how these individuals obtained these

 3     weapons; correct?

 4        A.   Correct, I didn't know.

 5        Q.   And you --

 6        A.   If I may add this:  This other person that had this American

 7     pump-action rifle was my neighbour.  We often spent time together,

 8     visited each other.  And before the war, he showed me a wood-burning

 9     stove in his apartment, which in the Bosnian is called "bubnjara," which

10     was indicative to me, why would you need a wood-burning stove in an

11     apartment that had central heating?  So that was a little bit strange to

12     me.  It didn't seem to make sense.

13        Q.   Okay.  Well, for the moment I'm just asking you about the -- the

14     weapons that you saw.  You also did not know how long these two

15     individuals had had those weapons; correct?

16        A.   That is correct.  I didn't.

17        Q.   Now, in terms of your whereabouts, you left Sarajevo on or before

18     the 30th of April, 1992; correct?

19        A.   First I took my children on the 3rd of April, this was before the

20     international recognition, because there was panic about what would

21     happen in the town once there was international recognition.  This was

22     particularly prominent among my colleagues, mothers, so that I decided --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there for a moment.  Could

24     you please focus your answers on what is asked because part of your

25     answer you're giving now is, first of all, not a direct answer to the

Page 29947

 1     question; and secondly, it is already in your statement.  So therefore,

 2     it's repetitious.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. File.

 4             And I think the question was that you left -- and the question is

 5     about you, that you left on or before the 30th of April, 1992.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the 30th of April.

 7             MR. FILE:

 8        Q.   And you did not return after that; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And you also did not execute any of your functions as senior

11     public prosecutor in Sarajevo after the 30th of April, 1992; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you were removed from that position on the 21st of May, 1992?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   And the reason given for that was wilful abandonment of your duty

16     and work obligations; correct?

17        A.   I don't know about the reasons given.

18             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter number 31808, please.

19        Q.   So I'm just going to direct your attention to the lower left-hand

20     portion of the page in B/C/S.  You'll see that this is from the

21     Official Gazette of RBiH.  It's a decision to relieve of duty the senior

22     public prosecutor in Sarajevo, and it says:

23             "Rato Runjevac is hereby relieved of duty of the Sarajevo Senior

24     Public Prosecutor due to wilful abandonment of his duty and work

25     obligations at the Senior Public Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo."

Page 29948

 1             Now, is this consistent with your understanding of why you were

 2     removed from duty?

 3        A.   First of all, I did receive this decision -- I never received it.

 4     Secondly, it is not true that I wilfully abandoned my work because I'd

 5     returned in early April, once I left my children in Trebinje, which was

 6     my intention, to return after the 1st of May holidays, which lasted for

 7     four or five days.  Perhaps you know that on the 2nd of May - and I

 8     remember this very well because it was my birthday on the 3rd of May -

 9     when I meant to return -- I meant to return on Sunday, which was the last

10     day of the holiday, there was a general attack and defence actions in

11     Sarajevo.  Due to the war there was a lot of destruction, and it was when

12     I decided that I could not return to Sarajevo without putting my life and

13     security in danger.

14             When I tried to leave, they had already tried to mobilise me at

15     the check-point in Lukavica and it was difficult to leave, never mind to

16     come back after a few days -- or rather, after a month.

17             Since the post office building in Sarajevo was burning, all the

18     telephone lines were cut on the 2nd of May, but I managed to use special

19     lines of the electricity utility company from Trebinje, and I managed to

20     reach my secretary, Zdravka, and to tell her that I could not return for

21     objective reasons.  Of course, I was not only one in that situation.

22        Q.   Okay --

23        A.   Many parents were in that situation.  Excuse me.  All right.  All

24     right.

25             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender this document and I would

Page 29949

 1     have no further questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 13808 receives Exhibit Number P7014,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             I would have one or not more than a few questions.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  May I draw your attention to paragraph 15 of your

 9     statement.

10             Could it be shown on the screen.  And that is P -- D860.  I think

11     it would be page 6 in -- the end of paragraph 15 in both languages.

12             Yes.  You describe in that paragraph the act and conduct of a

13     certain Mr. Sabanovic, and then at the very end you -- the last sentence

14     reads:

15             "The public knows about this because it was broadcast on

16     television together with the fact that Alija Izetbegovic, the president

17     of the BH Presidency, appealed to him and supported him, instead of

18     insisting on him being prosecuted."

19             Now, you say the public knows about this.  Do you consider

20     yourself to be a member of the public and therefore you learned about it

21     through the media?  Is that -- or do you say:  The public knew it because

22     they watched television and I knew it for other reasons?

23        A.   Your Honour, Mr. President, that incident was broadcast live by

24     Television Sarajevo or the Bosnia-Herzegovina television, so the dialogue

25     between that gentleman and the president of the presidency of Bosnia and

Page 29950

 1     Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, everybody could follow it on

 2     television.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  First could you tell us when it happened?

 4     Because that's totally unclear from the -- from the statement.  When

 5     exactly did it happen?

 6        A.   I really cannot say exactly if it was March or April.  Perhaps it

 7     was in May when I was watching television in Trebinje.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So it was after you had left Sarajevo?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not sure.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you watch it on television and that's the

11     source of your knowledge?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now just for me to understand, apparently there

14     was a violent exchange.  And then you say it was live broadcasted.

15     Should I understand negotiations between Mr. Sabanovic and the

16     government?  And where was Mr. Izetbegovic at the time?  I mean, I'm just

17     trying to get an impression on what exactly happened.  Was it by

18     telephone that they communicated?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, what probably happened was the TV

20     station at the time was called Yutel and it frequently tried to calm the

21     situation down.  Mr. Milic, everybody who worked at that television

22     station.  So I think that there was a contact, phone contact between him

23     and the person who was at the hydroelectric power-plant.  And they also

24     linked up Mr. Izetbegovic from the presidency so that he could try to get

25     Mr. Sabanovic not to do what he was threatening to do, which was to

Page 29951

 1     destroy the dam.  The link was a telephone link and that conversation was

 2     broadcast live on television.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier you said:  "So I think that there was a

 4     contact, phone contact ..."

 5             Do you think that that was the case or do you -- why do you think

 6     that?

 7        A.   I think so because they managed to establish a connection with

 8     Mr. Sabanovic at the hydroelectric power-plant by telephone, and then

 9     they were looking for a way to influence him so that he would not carry

10     out his threat.  And then they asked Mr. Alija Izetbegovic to speak with

11     him on the telephone, and all of that was broadcast live on television.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what exactly did Mr. Izetbegovic tell

13     Mr. Sabanovic?

14        A.   I don't remember that after 22 years or more.  All I know is that

15     he had a positive effect on him so that he did not do that.  He was

16     explaining why he wanted to do that.  So he was telling Mr. Sabanovic

17     that he understood him, his reasons and everything, but he was trying to

18     get him not to do what he was intending to do because of the danger that

19     was posed by that down river for the people there.  So Alija Izetbegovic

20     had a positive effect and he used his position and his authority to get

21     Mr. Sabanovic not to do what he was intending to do.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you also say in your statement that he

23     "appealed to him and supported him, instead of insisting on him being

24     prosecuted."  Would you expect Mr. Izetbegovic at that moment to say to

25     Mr. Sabanovic:  You'll be prosecuted if you go on?  Is that what you --

Page 29952

 1     rather than to calm him down in whatever way.  I'm puzzled by the

 2     statement in this respect.

 3        A.   I believe that in our situation in terms of crime and security,

 4     the idea was to calm the situation down, to give him support, and not to

 5     threaten him.  However, when the crime was committed, when owing to his

 6     activity - I mean, Mr. Izetbegovic - he didn't do that, and I believe

 7     that after that, at his request as a member and the president of the

 8     highest Executive Board, which was the presidency, they should have given

 9     an order for the crime to be prosecuted.  However, I don't believe that

10     that ever transpired.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You think you don't believe that.  Any reason for

12     that belief?

13        A.   I don't believe because immediately after the events, and also

14     for objective reasons - i.e., the war - I did not hear or I did not read

15     anywhere that any of those crimes were ever prosecuted; for example, the

16     destruction of the sculpture of Ivo Andric, the events at the dam, the

17     barricades, the murder of the wedding party member, and so on and so

18     forth.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the sentence I read to you suggests that

20     Izetbegovic could be heard on television not insisting on Mr. Sabanovic

21     being prosecuted, but I do understand that that part of the sentence, the

22     very last part, relates to that you believe that he was not prosecuted

23     because you never heard he was prosecuted, and what the role of

24     Mr. Izetbegovic was at that time is -- you couldn't know that from

25     watching television, at least not the live broadcast of the event.  Is

Page 29953

 1     that well understood?

 2        A.   Correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a follow-up question.

 5             Sir, at the time who -- which authority was responsible for

 6     initiating prosecutions against criminals?

 7        A.   Both then and now it would be the police, the Ministry of the

 8     Interior, and those who actually initiate prosecution are state

 9     prosecutions.  The point of my statement was that --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking --

11        A.   -- for a year and a half I never received anything --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you about the point of your

13     statement.  I am just asking you a simple question.  You have answered my

14     question.

15             So it would not be Izetbegovic's duty to initiate prosecutions,

16     isn't it so?  It was for you, the prosecutor, to do so.

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But then -- one last question.

20             You had left Sarajevo already at that point in time and were not

21     actually functioning as a prosecutor?

22        A.   I don't think so but let me just say that the municipal or,

23     rather, basic prosecutor in Visegrad was responsible for this, for the

24     prosecution of this crime.  He should have done it on a report received

25     by the police.  I don't know whether he ever received it or not.  And it

Page 29954

 1     was up to the prosecutor to prosecute, and I did it all that time without

 2     any criminal reports as a matter of fact.  I did it as means of

 3     preemption to prevent any escalations of the situation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you have no specific knowledge on how it

 5     happened that he was not prosecuted, what exactly -- how the

 6     decision-making process took place because you were not there.

 7        A.   Nothing specific.  But those organs were obstructed in the work

 8     along party lines because the parties took over not only in the

 9     ministries but also in the executive power.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that as a general matter.  But no specific

11     knowledge about this decision, if there was any, which resulted in the

12     non-prosecution of Mr. Sabanovic.

13             I have no further questions.  Any questions triggered by --

14     Mr. Stojanovic, no further questions.  Mr. File --

15             MR. FILE:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- no further questions.

17             Then, Mr. Runjevac, this concludes your testimony in this court.

18     It may have been relatively short, but as I reminded you several times,

19     we have your statement and of course that's the main body of the evidence

20     you have given.  I would like to thank you very much for coming a long

21     way to The Hague, for having answered the questions that were put to you

22     by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

23     You may follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for having listened to

25     me.  Thank you.

Page 29955

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Next witness to be called, no protective measures,

 3     Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  That's right, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  That's Mr. Boro Tadic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Boro Tadic.

 8             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9             MR. FILE:  May I be excused, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused, Mr. File.

11             Mr. Tieger, is it -- we're just discussing, was it Mr. File's

12     first appearances today in court?  Yesterday, of course.  I mean

13     yesterday.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.  He'd been introduced to the

16     Chamber during the testimony of Witness Bojanovic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we have to be ashamed of ourselves to

18     have forgotten about that.  But at least the matter is clear and I do

19     understand that the Prosecution is following good standards to introduce

20     new counsel.

21             Good morning, Mr. Tadic.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

22     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

23     that solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 29956

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Tadic.

 2                           WITNESS:  BORO TADIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tadic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

 5     You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

10        A.   Godspeed.

11        Q.   Could you please tell us your name for the record?

12        A.   Boro Tadic.

13        Q.   Mr. Tadic, have you provided a statement to the Radovan Karadzic

14     Defence team?

15        A.   Yes, I have.

16        Q.   And based on that statement, have you also spoken to the

17     General Mladic Defence team and have you provided a statement to them as

18     well?

19        A.   Yes, I have.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D1616.

21        Q.   Mr. Tadic, you have that document on the screen before you.  Do

22     you recognise the signature on the screen?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Whose signature is that?

25        A.   It's my signature.

Page 29957

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see the last page of the

 2     document, please.

 3        Q.   Do you see a signature again?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise it?  Whose signature is this?

 6        A.   This is my signature.

 7        Q.   When we reviewed this statement, would you say that everything

 8     has been recorded correctly?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   According to your best knowledge, what is contained in this

11     statement, is everything true and accurate?

12        A.   Yes, true and accurate.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the statement

14     into evidence.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, no objections.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01616 receives Exhibit Number D861,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if the same questions would be put to you

21     today, would you in substance give the same answers?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D861 is admitted into evidence.

24             Mr. Lukic, it happened several times over the last few weeks that

25     the logical sequence, first question is:  Does the document reflect what

Page 29958

 1     you said; second, did you give that information to the best of your

 2     knowledge; third question, would you give the same answers if being asked

 3     the same questions today.  That's the sequence which is -- we're losing

 4     parts of it.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I'm always grateful for your help, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  The matter has been repaired.

 7     Please move on with -- if you have any questions or perhaps you would

 8     prefer to start reading the summary of the statement.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I will first read statement summary, Your Honours,

10     and I will have only a few questions for this witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             When the war broke out in Croatia, the 6th Partizan Brigade was

14     mobilised in Sanski Most municipality.  The brigade commander was

15     Colonel Branko Basara, and Mr. Boro Tadic was the commander of the

16     1st Battalion.

17             In the spring of 1992, the general security situation in Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina deteriorated, inter-ethnic tensions escalated, the

19     conflict from the territory of Croatia split into B and H and the

20     situation worsened by the day.  For this reason a decision was made and

21     in the early April of 1992, the 6th Krajina Brigade of the JNA was

22     brought back from Western Slavonia to the area of Sanski Most.

23             Members of the unit mobilised in the area of Sanski Most were not

24     professional military personnel; rather, they were local people.

25             Before the start of the war in Bosnia, Mr. Tadic has personally

Page 29959

 1     taken part in discussions with the Muslims, and he went to the Muslim

 2     villages explaining that peace should be preserved.

 3             Before the war, Muslims and Croats were arming illegally and

 4     organising a paramilitary force.  Even though some of them responded to

 5     mobilisation in 1991, they were increasingly leaving the unit.  They also

 6     ignored the call to surrender illegal weapons and instead attacked the

 7     soldiers and police who were tasked with disarming them.

 8             At no point was the policy of the SDS or the VRS to remove

 9     permanently the Muslims and Croats from B and H territory to which the

10     Bosnian Serbs claimed right.  The Serbs sought for a long time a formula

11     for coexistence and for the survival of the common country and its

12     preservation.

13             Mr. Tadic knows that municipal authorities distributed

14     humanitarian aid equally to all those who were in need, regardless of

15     their ethnic or religious background.

16             That was statement summary, and I would have only couple of

17     questions for Mr. Tadic.  With your leave, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Tadic, were you a member of the Assembly of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina at one point?

22        A.   I was a member of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

23     1986 to 1990.  That was the last Communist assembly, the Assembly of the

24     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the eve of multiparty

25     elections.

Page 29960

 1        Q.   Did you participate in the founding of the SDS?

 2        A.   Bearing in mind my speeches at the sessions of the Assembly of

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, after I had realised that there was a project and

 4     an intention for my state to disintegrate, to be broken up, and when I

 5     had realised that I was isolated and that those who were with me --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I am stopping you there.  You are

 7     apparently giving reasons for whatever will follow.  The question was:

 8     Did you participate in the founding of the SDS?  Did you or did you not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm trying to say is that it

10     was only natural --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- for me to say what I was saying

13     at the assembly sessions at the time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that is not the question.  Whether it's

15     natural what you said or not is not what you are asked to tell us.  You

16     were asked to tell us whether you participated in the founding of the

17     SDS.  Did you participate in the founding or did you not participate?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did participate in the

19     founding of the Serbian Democratic Party.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's an answer to the question.  Listen carefully

21     to the next question Mr. Lukic will put to you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you please give us the reasons why you participated in the

24     founding of the SDS?

25        A.   I realised already as a member of the Assembly of

Page 29961

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in 1988, 1989, and 1990, that the years

 2     ahead of us would be very grave.  When I realised that the Muslims had

 3     set up their own party and that the Croats had established their own

 4     party, I participated in the founding of the Serbian Democratic Party

 5     during the first month or so.  But my condition was not to be a party

 6     member, bearing in mind that my wish was to be free from any political

 7     chains, because my faith in God forbade me to be a slave to another man

 8     as I was a slave to Tito in the Communist Party during the communist

 9     rule.  I didn't want that again.

10        Q.   Were you a member of the SDS or not?

11        A.   No, I was not.

12        Q.   And let me ask you what your positions were in 1992, from the

13     beginning of 1992 until the end?

14        A.   In early 1992 I was the commander of the 1st Battalion of the

15     6th Sana Brigade in Jasenovac.  I became sick in January and February,

16     and I ended up in the military hospital in Sarajevo on the 17th of March,

17     and I stayed there until the 2nd of April.  What happened was that my

18     return from Sarajevo through the barricades that had already been set up,

19     and I saw with my own eyes that Muslim and Croat flags were tied, the

20     night that I returned, the brigade from Jasenovac returned as well, and

21     then the brigade commander appointed me as his assistant for morale and

22     religious affairs.

23             I performed those duties in the course of April and May 1992.  In

24     May 1992, I heard from the commander that those people from the

25     municipality suggested that I should be the secretary of the Secretariat

Page 29962

 1     for National Defence.  However, at that time I was not in Sanski Most

 2     often because I couldn't pass through Muslim villages.  It was only at

 3     the end of May that I realised what was being proposed.  Up to the month

 4     of July, I was the secretary for the Secretariat of National Defence, and

 5     as of August I was the chief of the Department of National Defence for

 6     Sanski Most, and I stayed in that position until the 1st of May, 1995.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please speak slowly, sir.  The

 8     interpreters are desperately trying to keep pace with you and they are

 9     finding it very difficult.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what I mean when I make this gesture, as

11     I did several times, and you saw it.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And one more thing:  When you were appointed assistant commander

15     for morale and religious affairs, did you continue serving as the

16     battalion commander?

17        A.   While I was in hospital while I was sick, another person was

18     appointed and replaced me.  And as soon as I returned, the battalion

19     commander who was appointed remained at that position, and I was given

20     another role as assistant commander for morale and religious affairs.

21        Q.   Thank you Mr. Tadic.  This is all we had for you at this moment.

22     Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just don't understand the very last answer,

24     Mr. Lukic.

25             Sir, you say when you came back from hospital, the person who had

Page 29963

 1     been appointed to replace you continued in the post of assistant

 2     commander for religious affairs and -- morale and religious affairs.  And

 3     then you say also that you were given another post, but then you call it

 4     by the same name.  What post were you placed in now when you came from

 5     hospital?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the commander of the

 7     1st Battalion before I was hospitalised.  And then while I was

 8     hospitalised another person was appointed as the battalion commander.

 9     When I returned from hospital, which coincided with the return of the

10     brigade from Jasenovac to Sanski Most, I was appointed as assistant

11     commander for morale and religious affairs.  The person who had been

12     appointed in my place continued serving as the battalion commander.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             MR. LUKIC:  If I can just follow-up.

18        Q.   If Mr. Tadic can just give us the name, if he knows, if he

19     remembers.

20        A.   Brane Cicic.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again can you repeat the name of that

22     person?

23        A.   Brane Cicic.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tadic.  Once again, thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tadic, you will now be cross-examined by

Page 29964

 1     Mr. Jeremy.  You will find Mr. Jeremy to your right, and Mr. Jeremy is

 2     counsel for the Prosecution.

 3             And may I urge you to focus your answer on what is asked, rather

 4     than to move in all directions.

 5             Mr. Jeremy.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

 8        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Tadic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             MR. JEREMY:

12        Q.   I would like to begin, just in the couple of minutes that we

13     have, by returning to something that you said this morning.  So if I

14     understand correctly, you were a founding member of the

15     Serbian Democratic Party, or the SDS, but you were not in fact a member

16     of that party; is that correct?

17        A.   The conversation with those who initiated the foundation of the

18     party started by me saying, "I will help in the setting up of the

19     Serbian Democratic Party as a movement of the Serbian people to preserve

20     Yugoslavia on one condition:  I don't want to be a party member."

21     Mr. Sendic, who was my collocutor, accepted that.  I did participate in

22     the founding of the party but with the reservation, with the caveat that

23     I would never hold a position, I would never work as a party member, but

24     I said that I will invest all of my potentials in preserving Yugoslavia

25     and in the project which was the political platform of the

Page 29965

 1     Serbian Democratic Party.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And the last question on this area is this:  Now, together

 3     with Radovan Karadzic you arranged for a gathering of the SDS in

 4     September 1990 in Lusci Palanka that was attended by him and various

 5     other leaders of the SDS; correct?

 6        A.   During the month when the party was being established I was in

 7     constant contact and I happened to be together with Radovan twice.  For

 8     the first time it was in 1990 and the second time was on the 9th of

 9     September, 1992, in Lusci Palanka --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In 1990.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when he and Raskovic were there.

12     In other words, I took part in the organising of that event.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I know we are at break time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break first.

17             Mr. Tadic, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see

18     you back after the break.  You may follow the usher.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

24     the courtroom.

25             There was one preliminary matter which we should deal with before

Page 29966

 1     the next witness arrives, but I don't know how much time it would take.

 2     If it is a matter of -- that's at least our information, that before

 3     Mr. Milutinovic would arrive that we would have to deal with a

 4     preliminary matter.  But if it takes more than half a minute or minute,

 5     then I would postpone it.  If it is dealt with in a second, then we'd

 6     hear it now.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  It will take longer than a half a minute, not much

 8     but sufficiently more that we should proceed now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we proceed now.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that Mr. Tieger was speaking and not

11     Mr. Traldi.  Now it's corrected.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed with your

14     cross-examination.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Mr. Tadic, you testified in the Karadzic case in December 2013;

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you told the truth in that testimony; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, your statement in the Karadzic case took the form of

22     question and answer.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, what I'd like to do now is to look at one of the questions

25     and one of the answers that you provided in that statement.

Page 29967

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Could we therefore please see 65 ter 1D02286.  And

 2     that's Mr. Tadic's statement from the Karadzic case.

 3        Q.   All right, Mr. Tadic.  So we see that this is your statement.  We

 4     see your name on the front page.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 3, and I'd like to look

 6     at question 14.

 7        Q.   Now, I'll note that paragraph 12 and 13 of the Karadzic statement

 8     are very similar in substance to paragraphs 11 and 12 of your Mladic

 9     statement.  But I'd like to focus now on paragraph 14, and I'll read the

10     question and the answer, and I'll ask you if you stand by that answer in

11     respect of your testimony in this case.  So the question is as follows:

12             "Did the shortage of the professional command personnel influence

13     the quality of command and control in the unit mobilised in the

14     Sanski Most area?"

15             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the next page in the English,

16     please.

17        Q.   And the answer:

18             "No, not to a significant degree.  Reserve officers were

19     generally trained for certain levels of command.  They took courses and

20     were called for tactical exercises that the JNA organised, and this

21     training was of high standard."

22             So simply, Mr. Tadic, do you stand by the answer that you

23     provided to that question today?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 29968

 1             MR. JEREMY:  And I'm finished with the Karadzic statement, thank

 2     you.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, in paragraph 21 of your statement you discuss

 4     propaganda, and I'd like to ask you few questions on that topic now.

 5     Now, in 1992, the SDS produced a bulletin called the "Informator";

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And I'd like to take a look at that with you now.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 06616 on the screens.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is the wrong document.

11             MR. JEREMY:  I think we're still waiting for it to come up, so

12     06616, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That still seems not to be the document.

14             Could everyone verify whether he's using the right numbers,

15     either by asking or in responding to the request?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And could you repeat the number of the document

17     you are looking for.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, I'm looking for document number 06616,

19     according to my notes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The 65 ter number of the statement of the witness

21     is quite similar, but this bears 1D1616, but this is not what we are

22     looking for.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have the right document --

24             MR. JEREMY:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- now on our screen.

Page 29969

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Thank you for your

 3     patience, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, on our screen before us we see the "Informator" of

 5     Serbian Democratic Party Sanski Most.  And we see it's published on

 6     St. Peter's Day 1992.  Now, St. Peter's Day is in July; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, we see that the publisher of this document is the

 9     Serbian Democratic Party Information and Promotion Centre.  Now, below

10     that we see editor-in-chief Borislav Savanovic.  Now, he was the

11     president of the club of the SDS deputies in Sanski Most; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And looking at the associates below that, we see R. Nedjeljko,

14     that's a reference to Nedjeljko Rasula; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And he was president of the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now we also see a reference to Boro Tadic as one of the

19     associates.  That's you, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And so you contributed to this publication; correct?

22        A.   I did.

23        Q.   Now, we see at the bottom of the page that it was printed in

24     300 copies.  Now, the target audience of the "Informator" was not just

25     SDS members but also Serbs and non-Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?

Page 29970

 1        A.   It was up to the people to read if they wanted to.

 2        Q.   But it was generally available; yes?

 3        A.   Yes.  Whoever could get their hands on it could read it and

 4     inform themselves.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like now to move to the content of this document.  But

 6     before I do, I'd just want to remind you what you said in paragraph 21 of

 7     your statement, which is as follows:

 8             "It is bizarre to talk about the Serbian propaganda at the time

 9     as allegedly disseminating hatred and fear."

10             And then at the end of that paragraph 21, you go on to say that

11     the Serbs tried to "calm down the situation and prevent conflict."

12             MR. JEREMY:  Now, could we go to page 3 in this document, please.

13        Q.   Now, sir, we see that this section begins:

14             "Dear brother Serbs ..."

15             And I'll read a part of it.

16             "Do you know what our blood-thirsty enemies have been scheming

17     for us?

18             "What they had in mind was to gouge out our eyes and carve us up,

19     hack our bodies to pieces, rape women and girls in front of their

20     dearest, to circumcise, to destroy our religion, to crush us - just

21     because we happen to be Serbs.

22             "Don't think that anybody's family would have been spared.  They

23     had monsters ready and committed to raping Serbian women, and they had

24     developed a system of killing each and every Serb."

25             And I'll skip down a few paragraphs to the eighth paragraph down,

Page 29971

 1     where we read:

 2             "They had been preparing for genocide against the Serbs, but did

 3     not get away with it because we saw what was coming.  We warned and

 4     prepared our people in time."

 5             Now, Mr. Tadic, this is propaganda intended to disseminate hatred

 6     and fear, isn't it?

 7        A.   When one discusses the truth, it is no propaganda aimed at

 8     misleading but rather to illuminate so that people would understand what

 9     is possible to happen.  Everything what Rasula wrote had to do with some

10     documents he showed me in the office.  They found it in the possession of

11     the SDS [as interpreted].  He even mentioned some instruments they found

12     during their searches and their plans in terms of who was supposed to do

13     what.

14             Given the fact that we had gone through it all 50 years before in

15     1941, when only in one day five and a half thousand Serbs were killed and

16     when thousands upon thousands of people from Sana were taken to

17     Jasenovac, those wounds - which had still not healed - served as a

18     warning for us, that we need to organise ourselves, and that we do not

19     allow what happened in 1941 to happen again.

20             As for the breakup of Yugoslavia, well, the Western world

21     employed its cunning manner in that and we tried to pre-empt it.  We were

22     no longer the same people --

23        Q.   Sir?

24        A.   -- who saw the genocide and slaughter of 1941.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I just -- I do understand that you

Page 29972

 1     say it's not propaganda because it's the truth.  That is, in brief, your

 2     answer to the question.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe witness should answer your questions first.  I

 5     just have one intervention into -- into transcript.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             But is that well understood, your answer which I would just

 8     summarise in this way.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             I would have another question, but first, Mr. Lukic, I leave it

12     to you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Page 31 --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- line 4.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think that wrong party was recorded.  Maybe it

18     should be clarified.  "In possession of ..."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think, yes.

20             The documents that Mr. Rasula showed you in his office, they

21     found it in the possession of, may I take it that you want to refer to in

22     possession of the SDA?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In his office, I don't recall

24     the day exactly, but --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no -- just --

Page 29973

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- since I was away --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the problem was that it was recorded as "SDS"

 3     but you referred to, which seems to be logical, the SDA.

 4             I have one short question.  I thought you had confirmed that

 5     already but --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I hope I said the SDA.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then one simple question.  You also said in

 9     paragraph 21:  "They tried to calm down the situation."  The language you

10     just saw on your screen, do you consider that language which would be

11     useful to calm down the situation?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was much propaganda coming

13     from the West against the Serbs.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that's not my question.  My question is:

15     Whether the language that was just shown to you, whether you consider

16     that language of a type to calm down the situation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a response to what was

18     forthcoming, the breakup of Yugoslavia.  No one was having it easy at the

19     time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, for one reason or another you prefer rather

21     not to answer my question.

22             Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Now -- so I'd like to look at another part of this document, and

25     it's a part that is explicitly authored by Mr. Rasula --

Page 29974

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Jeremy, may I interrupt you.  I'm terribly

 2     sorry to do this.  I would like -- I have got a question related to just

 3     what the witness has just been saying.

 4             Sir, as an associate member of the "Informator," which is an

 5     organ of the SDS, you were working for the SDS, were you not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended only one meeting.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not my question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you there.  As a contributor to the

10     "Informator" by virtue of being of an associate member, you were working

11     for the SDS, were you not?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain the way the

13     establishment --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I don't want you to explain -- no --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- went and developed.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I'm just asking you a very simple question.

17     You can answer me "yes" or "no."  Were you working for the SDS?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked for the Serbian people.

19     If that included the SDS, then, yes, I helped wherever I could.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I helped in the establishment of

22     the party.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am not talking about the establishment.  I am

24     talking about contributing to the "Informator."  That was an SDS organ.

25     So by being -- you were contributing to the work of the SDS, were you

Page 29975

 1     not?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  Of course.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Now, I'm asking you this question because at

 4     page 24, lines 8 to 17 are too long to mention but I'm just going to

 5     mention one line.  At line 12 you say:

 6             "I did participate in the founding of the party but with the

 7     reservation, with the caveat that I would never hold a position, I would

 8     never work as a party member."

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is not correct because now here you're

11     working as an associate member of an organ of the SDS.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as an associate but not as a

15     member of the party.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             Could we please go to page 5 in the English of this document and

20     page 4 in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Tadic, this is a section written by Mr. Rasula and we

22     see the title is:  "The Place and the Role of the

23     Serbian Democratic Party in Time of War."

24             MR. JEREMY:  And actually we'll need to -- having established the

25     title, I'll need to go to the next page in the English, please.

Page 29976

 1        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like you to focus on the seventh paragraph down

 2     on -- of the B/C/S on the screen before you.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  And it's the third paragraph on the screen in

 4     English.

 5        Q.   It reads as follows:

 6             "With the coming of war and the new conditions, but still

 7     adhering to the goal of creating a Serbian state, the work of the

 8     Serbian Democratic Party naturally evolved into a series of duties and

 9     actions which served to prepare, organise, and provide the Serbian people

10     with the means of guaranteeing their safety in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

11     making them ready for a bitter battle with the other two peoples - the

12     Muslims, if they are -- if indeed they are a people (THEY ARE NOT), and

13     the Croats who have forever carried in their genes a sick, a pathological

14     desire and urge to kill those better, more honest, and - do we need to

15     say this - stronger than they are.  It has always been like that."

16             Mr. Tadic, you shared Mr. Rasula's views on Muslims and Croats;

17     yes?

18        A.   His wording was much harder, much fiercer.  My position is the

19     position of faith.  It is a fact that in all world wars, the Muslims and

20     Croats turned on the Serbs and they always leaned towards

21     Austria-Hungary, Turkey, and Germany, and this time around America.

22     America took upon itself the role previously held by Germany in

23     World War II on the eve of World War III.

24        Q.   Sir, I think we have a part of this in your statement and I'll

25     come to it and you'll have an opportunity to address it.  Now, from the

Page 29977

 1     answer that you just provided, I understand that you considered the words

 2     of Mr. Rasula to be stronger than the words that you would use.  But

 3     substantively in terms of the gist of what we read here, do you agree or

 4     do you disagree with Mr. Rasula's position?

 5        A.   I do not agree with his wording and the way he used those words,

 6     but I do agree that there was a danger, a threat to us should they have

 7     been able to use force.  Thank God they were not able to use force

 8     because they left the JNA which in turn resulted in the creation of a

 9     Serb army.  It was their policy to abandon the JNA and leave Yugoslavia.

10     This enabled the Serbs who remained legally in their state defending the

11     constitutional order of Yugoslavia to get hold of the weapons.

12        Q.   Sir --

13        A.   That was the only possibility given to the Serbian people.

14        Q.   So when Mr. Rasula says that the Muslims are not a people, do you

15     agree -- do you agree with that?

16        A.   You see, all documents that we have from the time of war and

17     since refer to Bosniaks, but they are nowhere to be found.  They called

18     themselves Muslims before 1991.  This shows you that they are confused in

19     their understanding of themselves.  Mesa Selimovic who was a Muslim but

20     realised that he had Serb origins said --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm going to stop you there again.  You

22     were asked whether you considered the Muslims to be a people or not.  You

23     are explaining us how they considered themselves, but the question was

24     whether you considered them to be a people, yes or no.  Would you please

25     focus on that.

Page 29978

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I respect whatever they say about

 2     themselves.  If they say they are Bosniaks, I honour that.  And I

 3     honoured when they called themselves Muslims.  But what I think about

 4     that is a different matter.  I respect someone who respects themselves.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked about whether you have an opinion

 6     about that and what that opinion is.  And by saying that "I respect

 7     whatever they say and my opinion I'll keep it for myself" is not an

 8     answer to the question.  But that seems to be a pattern, that you're not

 9     answering the questions, and I would urge you to answer them.

10             Now, in view of the last few questions put to you by Mr. Jeremy,

11     whether you agreed with the views of Mr. Rasula, you used a lot words.

12     But it's clear, or at least as I read it, and if -- as one could read it,

13     in this text Mr. Rasula, by referring to genes, by referring to

14     pathology, and by referring to the Serbs being better, depicts the

15     Muslims as inferior people.  Now, whatever political stance they may have

16     taken in the past, do you agree - apart from the specific language -

17     that -- with Mr. Rasula, that Muslims are inferior to Serbs?  Because

18     that's what appears from this text.  Do you agree with that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I said it was too

20     hard-line.  I would never put it in that way.  But it's clear to me where

21     the fear and the hate comes from and how come that they were always

22     against the Serbs.  Because these are Serbs who changed their faith and I

23     was -- and they felt sorry once Turkey left.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that you do not share the view as

25     expressed by Mr. Rasula in this text that Muslims are inferior to Serbs?

Page 29979

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not use that qualification

 2     myself.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 4             MR. JEREMY:

 5        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to -- to now move to how you yourself describe

 6     Muslims in your statement.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  But before I do, I'd like to tender that document,

 8     the "Informator."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's 54 pages, Mr. Jeremy.  Do we need them all?

10             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I think we do need more than the

11     sections that I've had the opportunity to read to the -- to the witness,

12     but I agree that it is a long document and I would propose that it be

13     MFI'd and I will take another look at the document and --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. JEREMY:  -- work to remove some sections before tendering.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If you please do so because from my last question it

17     appears that just reading it and associating this with the witness might

18     not be fully fair to the witness.  So therefore, if you limit yourself to

19     put a few matters to say witness, then to say, well, the whole of it is

20     in evidence may create a suggestion that, since he is on the cover page

21     of this publication, that he would share all what's written in there and

22     that would be perhaps not fully fair.

23             MR. JEREMY:  I agree.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait for your further submissions as to what

25     parts, and perhaps you also discuss the matter with Mr. Lukic.

Page 29980

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I would also note that the witness did

 2     say that he contributed to this publication.  I accept he hasn't said he

 3     contributed to every page, but --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  -- that's how he's testified.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm aware of that.  That's exactly the reason

 7     why I'm cautious.  We will hear from you but we already reserve a number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  06616 receives P7015, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Sir, I'd like now to take a look at your statement in this case.

13             MR. JEREMY:  And that's D861.  And in particular I'd like to look

14     at paragraph 7, please.  It's page 3 in each language.

15        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to focus your attention on -- I'd like --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber would like you to be aware

17     that it found in paragraph 7 a lot of sweeping statements and not a lot

18     of facts.  That's how it was presented.  And as you know, the Chamber is

19     interested primarily in receiving evidence on facts and would certainly

20     not encourage further detailed debates about sweeping statements,

21     judgements, opinions, et cetera.

22             Please keep that in the back of your mind.

23             MR. JEREMY:  That's understood, Your Honours, and my intention is

24     simply to clarify some parts of that paragraph.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 29981

 1             MR. JEREMY:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, I would like to focus on two aspects of this paragraph

 3     which I will read to you and then I will ask you some follow-up

 4     questions.  Now, six or so lines down we read -- well, you refer to going

 5     to Muslim villages and speaking to the persons who were there.  Now, I

 6     will read what you say in paragraph 7:

 7             "My main thesis was Muslims, such as Hudo Kurbegovic" -- excuse

 8     me.

 9             "My main thesis was that the Muslims, as Islamicized Serbs, this

10     time as before, would heed the ill-intended West to inflict as much harm

11     as possible on the Orthodox Serbs."

12             And I'd also like to read you a part in the second half of the

13     last sentence reading:

14             "I also told them in advance that no matter how much they

15     understood me at the time, the primal hatred that existed in them towards

16     their kind from whom they broke away by changing religion would still

17     heed the evil and cunning intentions of the West."

18             Now, sir, when you -- when you refer in this paragraph to Muslim

19     villages you're referring to Muslim villages in Sanski Most; yes?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And when you refer to primal hatreds, you're talking about primal

22     hatreds in Muslims towards Serbs; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you were touring these Muslim villages in Sanski Most in

25     April and May 1992; yes?

Page 29982

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you were doing so in your capacity as assistant commander for

 3     morale and religious affairs in the 6th Brigade; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, I'd like to move on to a different topic.

 6     We can leave this paragraph.

 7             Now, sir, you are aware that in early November 1992, nine

 8     civilians from Skrljevita village were murdered in Sanski Most?

 9             Sir, should I repeat the question?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should wait for the interpretation to be

11     finished.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand it.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Okay, forgive me.

14        Q.   Sir, are you aware that in early November 1992, nine civilians

15     from Skrljevita were murdered?  They were shot.  You're aware of that,

16     yes?

17        A.   I cannot remember that now.  If there is a document or anything

18     that would confirm that, perhaps I could.  Is that the case where

19     Danilusko committed these killings?

20        Q.   Yes, that's one of them.  Does that refresh your recollection?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Now having had your recollection refreshed, do you recall

23     discussing this event at a meeting of the Sanski Most Executive Committee

24     on the 10th of November, 1992?

25        A.   I cannot remember.  If there is a document that I could see,

Page 29983

 1     perhaps then I could.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please take a look at such a document.

 4     It's 65 ter 31785.

 5        Q.   And, sir, while that's being brought up, I can tell you that they

 6     are the minutes of the extraordinary session of the Executive Committee

 7     of the Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most, and they are dated the

 8     10th of November, 1992.

 9             So, sir, on the screen before us we have those minutes.  And we

10     see that they are indeed dated the 10th of November, 1992, so nine days

11     or so after the events in Skrljevita.  And I will note that ten or so

12     lines down we see -- we read that:

13             "In addition to the members of the Executive Committee, the

14     session was also attended by ..."

15             And we have a list of attendees including Boro Tadic.  That would

16     have been you; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, I'd like to focus your attention on some comments that we

19     see from Mirko Vrucinic.

20             MR. JEREMY:  And if we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S, please.

21        Q.   Now, sir, Mirko Vrucinic was the chief of the Sanski Most Public

22     Security Station; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, in the third sentence below his name, we read that:

25             "On the 1st of November, 1992, nine members of Skrljevita village

Page 29984

 1     were killed.  They were ordinary people who were not extremists; the

 2     motive was retaliation for the fallen soldiers from Krihare."

 3             Now, sir, does that refresh your recollection of this meeting?

 4             I saw you -- you nodded, could you articulate an answer for the

 5     record?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm getting into this bit by bit.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 2 in the English and

 9     page 3 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   And I'd like to show you some comments from Vlado Vrkes.  And

11     these are near the top of the page.

12             MR. JEREMY:  And page 3 in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   And five or six lines from below his name.  We read --

14             MR. JEREMY:  And, I'm sorry, in the English it's two-thirds of

15     the way down on page 2.

16        Q.   And we see there that he suggests that a visit should be paid to

17     General Talic to inform him about all these acts, and we see that he

18     says:

19             "Proceedings have to be instituted against perpetrators of these

20     unlawful acts."

21             And I would like to look at the conclusions from this meeting.

22             MR. JEREMY:  If we could please go to page 4 in the English and 5

23     in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And about halfway down the page we see a list of conclusions.  I

25     would like to focus on number 2, where we read:

Page 29985

 1             "Arrange a visit to the Command of the 1st Krajina Corps...," and

 2     "... inform the corps commander about the situation of the

 3     municipality ..."

 4             It goes on and lists the names of the delegation.  And,

 5     Mr. Tadic, you're listed as one of those members of the delegation in

 6     your capacity as chief of the Sanski Most department of the Ministry of

 7     Defence.  Can you confirm that you were in fact part of that delegation

 8     that went to see General Talic?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10        Q.   Sir, could you --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- yes, I heard the witness answer the question

12     but there was no interpretation.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your answer, please?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, that delegation discussed with General Talic these events in

17     Skrljevita; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And do you recall General Talic's position in respect of these

20     events?

21        A.   I cannot recall that, no.

22        Q.   Now, this Court has received evidence that of the four men

23     accused of these events, two of them - Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vukic -

24     were under 18 at the time of the events.  So they were minors.  Now, were

25     you or are you aware that two of those men were under 18 at the time of

Page 29986

 1     these events in Skrljevita?

 2        A.   This is the first time that I'm hearing of it.  I mean, I didn't

 3     really follow that much.  But any incident or any killing really caused

 4     me a lot of pain, not only because of the other peoples but also because

 5     of my own people, because of the fact that nothing would be left except

 6     evil.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'd like to show you a document in connection with these two

 8     men.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  And could we please see 65 ter 16467.

10             And, Your Honours, I'd like to tender those minutes that we just

11     saw, 65 ter 31785.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31785 receives Exhibit Number P7016,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P7016 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, sir, we see on our screens before us a document from the

18     Banja Luka military court.  It's dated the 9th of December, 1992.  And we

19     see in the top right corner of the original the stamp of the military

20     prosecutor's office and the 1st Krajina Corps command.  Now, in the first

21     paragraph we -- we see that the investigating judge of the Banja Luka

22     military court in the case of Kajtez et al. has decided to sever the case

23     against Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vokic.

24             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to page 2 in the English, please.

25        Q.   And next to Roman numeral II, halfway down the page in the B/C/S,

Page 29987

 1     towards the top of the page in the English, we read:

 2             "The severed case files relating to underage Goran Vukojevic and

 3     Todo Vokic are passed onto the authority of a judge for minors of the

 4     Sanski Most lower court for special proceedings pursuant to provisions in

 5     the 27th chapter of the Law on Criminal Procedure."

 6             Now, sir, seeing this document does that refresh your

 7     recollection about these proceedings?

 8        A.   Actually, I only now understand it.  I thought that we were

 9     talking about those who were killed but were under 18, but on the basis

10     of this I understand that this is about those who actually committed the

11     killing but were under 18.  I don't know very much about it.  I know very

12     little about it.  I was informed about it then at the Executive Board

13     meeting, and I was in that delegation.  And I'm sure I said the kind of

14     things that I would say now, that this was a -- a major evil that we

15     Serbs were committing against ourselves.  I always said the same thing,

16     and I can see that this was committed by two persons who were under 18.

17     I'm only now getting that fact.

18             But I really wasn't all that much involved in this because I was

19     working in the Ministry of Defence section that was dealing with the

20     mobilisation of people and assets, and I had so much work to do that I

21     didn't have time to get involved in other things that were not part of my

22     job description.  But I welcomed every act that Republika Srpska carried

23     out against the evil within ourselves.

24        Q.   Sir, you mentioned in your lengthy answer that you were, among

25     other things, responsible for mobilisation.  Now, you were aware or are

Page 29988

 1     you aware that despite the charges against Goran Vukojevic, he was the

 2     very next year mobilised into the VRS?

 3        A.   I don't know.  We did have records of young men who were 17 and

 4     recruited, and it's possible that he, like all the others, was entered

 5     into the records and recruited into the Army of Republika Srpska.  This

 6     could easily be the case.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  I'd like to go to one such record, and before I do,

 8     Your Honours, could I tender that document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16467 receives Exhibit Number P7017,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7017 is admitted.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             Could we please see 65 ter 06514.

15        Q.   And, sir, as this is being brought up I can tell you it's a

16     stamped certificate issued by the RS Ministry of Defence, Sanski Most

17     department certifying that Goran Vukojevic served in the forces in

18     Banja Luka during a particular period.

19             So we now have the certificate on the screen before us.  And we

20     see it is from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence, department of

21     Sanski Most.  We see the date is the 15th of December, 1994.  And we see

22     that it -- the document is issued at the request of Vukojevic, Goran,

23     from Kruhari.  And there is a certificate.  It certified that

24     Goran Vukojevic from Kruhari, born in 1975, served in the military

25     service in the period from 18th of June, 1993, to the 21st of February,

Page 29989

 1     1994.  And his unit is listed.  And we read that he is still engaged as a

 2     member of reserve formation.  And we read that the certificate is issued

 3     and used for and then we read "justification of absence at the court

 4     procedure in Banja Luka," and it's signed by Chief Boro Tadic.

 5             So firstly, Mr. Tadic, do you recall signing this particular

 6     document?

 7        A.   I signed thousands of documents, but it's a sure thing that I did

 8     not sign anything that was inaccurate because I see on the basis of this

 9     that he served his regular term of duty and that he asked for leave and

10     he was granted what he was requesting.  And it's true that according to

11     this document he did serve his regular military term of duty in that

12     time-period, and perhaps he was getting summonses, but it seems that he

13     needed that in order for him to justify his absence from the trial.  But

14     I see that this certificate was issued with that intention.  But it does

15     confirm the fact that during that time-period he was a member of the

16     military.

17        Q.   So, sir, on the basis of your answer do I understand it correctly

18     that it was the case that even if criminal proceedings had been initiated

19     against you for an event as serious as the events in Skrljevita, military

20     service could excuse you from those proceedings; is that correct?

21        A.   A witness is not somebody -- oh, a person is not guilty unless

22     it's proven or unless they've been sentenced.  So they are expected to

23     carry out their regular duties, the things they need to do in life.  And

24     probably because he was not in detention, he was free, and so he could

25     not have been considered guilty, regardless of the indictment, until the

Page 29990

 1     trial had been finished.  So if he had responded to the summons, he did

 2     what he needed to do.  Had he been in detention, had he been in

 3     investigative prison, then this kind of thing could not have happened.

 4        Q.   But, sir, this document, as I read it, is justifying the absence

 5     of Goran Vukojevic from the court procedure in Banja Luka.  So at least

 6     on face value it suggests to me that there were proceedings that were

 7     going on but Mr. Vukojevic wasn't present at those proceedings because

 8     instead he was serving in the VRS?

 9        A.   Yes.  Probably he was summoned during the time that he was

10     serving his military term of duty.  I cannot remember the details right

11     now.  But by that logic, while he was serving in the military he received

12     a summons.  That is what would be logical.  But I cannot recall any

13     details.

14        Q.   But, sir, my question very simply is:  The fact is -- if he did

15     receive a summons, was the fact that he was serving in the military a

16     sufficient reason for him not to respond to that summons?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You're asking for judgement, Mr. Jeremy.  So please

18     rephrase your question.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'm actually prepared to rely on the

20     answers that I've already got from the witness on this particular

21     document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then put your next question to the witness.  Perhaps

23     after the break because we're at the time for a break.  Are you on

24     schedule as far as time is concerned, Mr. Jeremy?

25             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  I estimated two and a half hours

Page 29991

 1     and I hope I will come in somewhere under that.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You indicated two hours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's at least what was our information, that

 4     you asked for two hours, but please verify that.  And I do understand

 5     that you would certainly not need two and a half hours, which --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you tender this document which is on the

 7     screen?

 8             MR. JEREMY:  I do, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06514 receives Exhibit P7018,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P7018 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Tadic, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

15     You may follow the usher.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, just to respond to the question that

18     you asked of me a moment ago.  We revised the time for this witness up to

19     two and a half hours via e-mail on the 10th of December at 1528.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we may have missed that.

21             MR. JEREMY:  [Overlapping speakers] -- an informal communication.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We may have missed that.  And we'll now take a

23     break and the time estimate is that we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

Page 29992

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm so sorry.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I mistakenly understood or assumed that you had been

 4     advised that there were two preliminary matters and I'm very sorry about

 5     that.  One of those should be raised in private session.  If it's too

 6     late now, we can do it at the next session.  But in any event, there will

 7     be two matters to raise in response -- both of which are in response to

 8     earlier Court inquiries.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps it's not the best moment to -- when

10     the witness will enter the courtroom, but perhaps we could take the next

11     break a bit earlier and then do it at the end of this session.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Very well.  Thank you.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, just to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Just to make you aware, during this session it may

16     be that I ask you to draw the witness's attention to his rights under

17     Rule 90(E).

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Just indicate the moment.  As you know that we

19     usually leave it to the parties who know what questions will be put to

20     the witness, whether it's appropriate or not to give him a 90(E) warning.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, for planning purposes I anticipate

22     finishing within under 45 minutes from now.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would still have time for the other matters.

25             Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

Page 29993

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, the civilian protection staff in Sanski Most formed

 3     part of the national defence and were therefore part of your

 4     responsibility; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And among other things, the civilian protection staff were

 7     responsible for burials of human remains found in Sanski Most during the

 8     war period; correct?

 9        A.   We have to differentiate here.  I was responsible for

10     mobilisation of personnel and material assets for the civilian

11     protection, but I was not authorised to decide on the use of civilian

12     protection units or those of the army or those for the obligatory work

13     duty.  So my job was to provide the personnel or assets to the civilian

14     protection army and the work-duty units, but those who were carrying out

15     their orders received from higher levels would carry out the assignments.

16     This applied to the army, which had its command, to the enterprises,

17     which had their directors and management system, and the same applied to

18     the civilian protection, which had its own commander who carried out

19     these duties pursuant to the law and the regulations.

20        Q.   But, sir, generally speaking, you were aware of the activities

21     that were carried out by the civilian protection force in Sanski Most;

22     correct?

23        A.   Sometimes I would be there at a briefing when civilian protection

24     tasks were discussed at the Executive Board.  Since I attended the

25     Executive Board sessions only when it pertained to things that had to do

Page 29994

 1     with the Ministry of Defence, it's possible that I was sometimes present

 2     when issues regarding the use of civilian protection were discussed.  I'm

 3     not quite sure about it right now.  I don't recall the details, but

 4     perhaps if there are any documents you can show me, then perhaps we could

 5     discuss those issues.

 6        Q.   Yes.  We'll take a look at some documents, sir.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  And the first one, please, is 65 ter 06444.

 8        Q.   And while this is being brought up, Mr. Tadic, I can tell you

 9     that it's a report about activities of civilian protection headquarters

10     Sanski Most municipality during the period from 15th of July, 1992, to

11     the 15th of October, 1992.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Now, could we please go to page 3 in each language.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Tadic, as you'll see, the B/C/S document is not as

14     legible as one would hope, so I'd ask you for your patience.  Now, sir,

15     I'd like to direct your attention to the paragraph numbered number 1

16     towards the top of the page:  "Demolition and sanitation of residential

17     buildings."  Now, we see a reference to a joint action of the civilian

18     protection staff and the municipal Ministry for National Defence

19     connecting to a list being made of able-bodied men between 17 to 60.

20     That reference to the municipal Ministry for National Defence, that was

21     part of your responsibility; correct?  That's a reference to your

22     department.  I see you're nodding.  Could you verbalize --

23        A.   This is a confirmation of what I have just said.  It was my duty

24     to note down the population that could become part or used in the work of

25     the civilian protection.  The mobilising of them and passing them on to

Page 29995

 1     the units of civilian protection or the civilian protection commander so

 2     that they could be used, that was my part.  And this is confirmed by this

 3     paragraph here, that we did this in co-operation.  We worked together on

 4     this.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  And could we please zoom in on paragraph -- this

 7     paragraph 1, please; particularly, in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'd like to look at the last sentence of that.  If you can

 9     read it.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Could we perhaps widen the page a little bit, if

11     possible, for the B/C/S.  No.

12        Q.   Sir, it reads as follows:

13             "The brigades worked on the demolition and sanitation of

14     residential and religious buildings in the following inhabited areas."

15             Now, the religious buildings being referred to here are mosques;

16     correct?

17        A.   I cannot see it here.  Is that paragraph 1, item 1?

18        Q.   It's the last sentence of paragraph 1 towards the top of the

19     page.  Sir, if you can't read that sentence, then I won't ask you to

20     comment on it.

21        A.   The only thing that I can say, judging by what I understand here,

22     even though you can't even read it, is that those units were engaged on

23     clearing up the consequences of something that was done.  For example,

24     something that was beyond repair.  It was demolished, needed to be

25     cleared up so that it would not pose a danger to the people.  And the

Page 29996

 1     things that could be repaired would be repaired.  This is how I

 2     understood it.

 3             The demolition and sanitation of -- so something that had already

 4     been demolished in an action by whoever did that.  So that there would be

 5     no safety problems, it had to be completely demolished if it couldn't be

 6     used anymore or it could not be rebuilt; whereas things that were just

 7     slightly damaged could be repaired and used again.  This is how I

 8     understood what is written -- how I understand what is written here.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Tadic, actually you're not being asked to tell

10     us what you understand but tell us what you read there if you are able to

11     read it.  We can always give the interpretations that we want to give,

12     but the question really is, and the answer should be very short:  Can you

13     read it, and read it if you can.  Because now you are putting words into

14     this statement which are not there.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The demolition and sanitation of

16     housing and religious buildings ..."

17             And now there is a part that's difficult.  It says "brigades" but

18     this other word is difficult.  "Construction."  I think that's what it

19     says.  "Construction Brigade" or "Brigades," something like that.

20     "Housing Units, Construction Brigades."  Something like that.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you so much.

22             MR. JEREMY:

23        Q.   Sir, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that at least

24     18 mosques were destroyed in Sanski Most during the period of 1992 to

25     1995.  Were you aware of that?

Page 29997

 1        A.   I was.  And I passed by and I could see demolished mosques.  I

 2     did witness that mosques were demolished.  I saw that.

 3        Q.   And did you see who it was who demolished those mosques?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like to look at another part of this document.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  And that's in the paragraph below the one that we've

 7     just been looking at.  And unfortunately, it's also not the clearest.

 8        Q.   So, sir, at the bottom --

 9             MR. JEREMY:  If we could stop there.

10        Q.   -- just before B on the screen, there is a sentence that I would

11     like to -- to read -- or I'll read a few sentences up from there, and the

12     subheading of this paragraph is: "In the Town."  So we read:

13             "Simultaneously with these activities a considerable amount of

14     time was spent removing debris from the town mosque.  These activities

15     are still underway and the exhumation and dislocation of the cemetery

16     next to the town mosque will begin after the adoption of appropriate

17     decisions in the municipal assembly.  The machinery that exists in the

18     6th Brigade was also used in these activities."

19             So, sir, we see here that the civil protection headquarters of

20     Sanski Most is anticipating a decision in the municipal assembly to

21     exhume and dislocate the cemetery next to the town mosque.  Now, my first

22     question:  That cemetery was a Muslim cemetery; correct?

23        A.   Yes, probably, next to the mosque.

24        Q.   And the decision to exhume that cemetery was, in fact,

25     subsequently taken in February 1993; correct?

Page 29998

 1        A.   It's possible.  It's possible.

 2        Q.   I'd like to show you a document in connection with that.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  But before I do, Your Honours, I'd like to tender

 4     this document but I -- because the B/C/S is illegible, then I would

 5     propose that we MFI the document and we'll -- I will go into the evidence

 6     unit and try and find a more legible document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That would be appreciated.  Apparently someone was

 8     able to read it, otherwise you couldn't translate it.  And -- but, as you

 9     are suggesting, we'll MFI it.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06444 receives P7019, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification.

13             Witness, the last question was about a decision taken in

14     February 1993 to exhume and relocate.  You said you don't remember.

15     Don't you remember the date or don't you remember that such a decision

16     was taken?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a member of the assembly.

18     I wasn't a member of the party, of any other party, neither the

19     Serbian Democratic Party or any other political party.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I was not asking whether you were a member

21     of a party.  I was asking you whether you were uncertain about that such

22     a decision was taken, sometimes you can know that even if you are not a

23     member of the organ that takes a decision, or that you are uncertain

24     about the date.  That was my question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about how I didn't

Page 29999

 1     attend sessions very often.  I could have been invited only when

 2     questions were discussed from my remit.  So I cannot remember this,

 3     unless there is a document that would help me to remember what that was

 4     about.  I was not a member of the assembly.  I only attended when I was

 5     summoned, when issues were discussed that I was responsible for.  I mean,

 6     it's possible that I did attend.  But if there is a document, then I

 7     can --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But it is about whether you knew, not about were you

 9     responsible, whether or not you attended.  Do you know that a decision

10     was taken or do you not know?  Your memory --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember as I sit here

14     today.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Witness, I will see if I can refresh your recollection.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31788.

19        Q.   And, sir, coming on to our screens are the minutes of the

20     7th Session of the Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly of

21     Sanski Most.  And they are dated the 25th of February, 1993.  We see

22     those minutes on the screen before us.  And I note in the fourth

23     paragraph that:

24             "In addition to the members of the Executive Committee, the

25     following invitees were present ..."

Page 30000

 1             And the penultimate name is Boro Tadic.  Now, sir, that would

 2     have been you; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 3 of these minutes.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, my first question.  Just above item 3, we see the final

 7     bullet point is that the work of commission be updated regarding the

 8     changing of the street names, squares, and public institutions.  Sir,

 9     this is a reference to changing the street names, squares, and public

10     institutions that contained Muslim names to Serb names; correct?

11        A.   I suppose so.  Everybody did that in the same way.  Muslims would

12     delete Serb names and the other way around.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm asking you about what you did in Sanski Most and what

14     this executive body did.  So is that what they are indeed doing, they are

15     changing names from Muslim origin to Serb names?

16        A.   That was updating the work of the -- of the commission for

17     renaming of the streets.  I don't know whether it was ever done.  I

18     suppose there is a report to that effect, to show whether the update was

19     implemented or not.  This is just about the updating of the work of that

20     commission.  Effectively, it was operational, it existed, and its work

21     was being updated with this.  This is how I understand things.

22        Q.   I understand it's a reference to an update.  But just very

23     simply, when you read this reference to the changing of street names,

24     squares, and public institutions, do you understand this to be the

25     changing of those names from Muslim names to Serb names?

Page 30001

 1        A.   I suppose that there were such cases as well.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 7 in the English and 6 in

 3     the B/C/S.  And I would like to focus on item 9 when we get there.

 4        Q.   Now, under item 9, sir, we read:

 5             "The Chairman opened the discussion topic - endorsing draft

 6     decision on exhumation of mortal remains from the cemetery in the Centre

 7     (next to the mosque) and the cemetery in Zdena (in the vicinity of Sip).

 8             "Since there were no participants in the discussion, pursuant to

 9     the proposal of the Chairman, the Executive Committee made the following

10     conclusion:

11             "1.  The draft decision on exhumation of mortal remains from the

12     cemetery in the centre (next to the mosque) and the cemetery in Zdena (in

13     the vicinity of Sip) is endorsed."

14             Mr. Tadic, the locations referred to here are Muslim cemeteries;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the goal of this decision was to remove traces of Muslims in

18     Sanski Most; correct?

19        A.   I don't know the details.  For some reason that was done.  But

20     about destroying any traces, you can't destroy traces, can you?  I really

21     don't see it that way.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you have any doubts, what, in your view,

23     was the reason to do this?  What was discussed or not discussed?  What

24     was the underlying reason to?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything about that.

Page 30002

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, if --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really was not that much involved

 3     in all that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no idea, although it was scheduled that

 5     meeting, it apparently was an issue that was decided there, but you say:

 6     I've got no idea what it was for?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no discussion at all.

 8     There was never a discussion on that issue.  And why things were done, if

 9     they were, I don't know any details.  It was not within my remit and I

10     didn't get involved in all that at all.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking about details.  I'm asking about what

12     the purpose of exhumation of mortal remains was, from these cemeteries.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, you were taken by

15     surprise.  You have no idea why -- well, quite an operational thing would

16     have happened at that point in time with that purpose?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't explain.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             I'd like to tender --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we look at the list of attendees of this

22     meeting, please.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Yes.  Could we go back to page 1, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you say you were not involved in this.  You

25     were not part of it.  But were you not a member of this meeting, were you

Page 30003

 1     not a part of this meeting?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was invited to the meeting of the

 3     Executive Board because of --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you how -- just hold it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- item 4 --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just hold it.  I'm not asking you how you came

 7     there, whether by invitation or what.  You were part of the meeting,

 8     isn't it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And you -- and part of the

11     meeting endorsed the decision, whether it was discussed or not discussed?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not vote.  I was a guest.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking whether you voted.  I'm saying the

14     meeting endorsed that decision, although it was not discussed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, you can see that

16     from the record of the meeting.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would like to tender

20     those minutes as the next Prosecution exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31788 receives Exhibit P7020,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             MR. JEREMY:

Page 30004

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Tadic, given your responsibilities, were you aware that

 2     in 1994 the Banja Luka State Security Department also suggested that

 3     efforts were made to excavate Muslim mass graves?

 4        A.   No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, I'm puzzled by the use of the word

 6     "also."  We saw a decision on exhumation of mortal remains from a

 7     cemetery, not from any mass graves.  So the "also" in the mass grave

 8     puzzles me.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I'd just rephrase the

10     question and I remove the "also" reference which I concede was

11     misleading.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   So, sir, given your responsibilities, were you aware that in

15     1994, the Banja Luka State Security Department suggested that efforts

16     were made to excavate Muslim mass graves?

17        A.   No, no, I'm not abreast of that.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Can we see 65 ter 31795.

19        Q.   Sir, on our screens is a document from the state security

20     department of Banja Luka, Prijedor detachment, and we see that it's dated

21     28th of March, 1994.  And it's an Official Note.  Now, in the first

22     paragraph we read that:

23             "During 1992 there were several armed clashes with Muslim

24     paramilitary formations in the Sanski Most area, concentrated mainly in

25     the villages of Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Trnovo, Lukavica, and Modra."

Page 30005

 1             Now, sir, you were aware of those locations in Sanski Most;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I know.  I know these places.

 4        Q.   Now, I understand from your Karadzic testimony that you were not

 5     present during the operations by the 6th Brigade at the end of May and at

 6     the start of June in, for example, Vrhpolje and Hrustovo; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   I was not present.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now in the next paragraph we see the following.  We see a

10     reference to Muslim extremists who have moved members of their family to

11     other areas before the outbreak of those clashes, and we read that they

12     were killed in this fighting.  We read:

13             "Because of this, they were buried in common graves by members of

14     their own people, neighbours, and other people employed by the competent

15     organs."

16             Now, those "other persons employed by the competent organs" would

17     have included the civil defence, civil protection unit; correct?

18        A.   I can't say anything.  I guess that organisation was there.

19        Q.   Now, we read:

20             "Following the cessation of fighting in these areas, some people

21     took part in burying those killed left our area in convoys, on release

22     from the Manjaca camp and in other ways."

23             And it goes on to say that their information has been used as

24     Muslim propaganda, Muslim media propaganda to increase pressure against

25     Serbian people.

Page 30006

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go to the next page in the English, please.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, in the final sentence we read that the -- the state

 3     security department measures, as a suggestion we read:

 4             To counter such occurrences and to prevent in good time the use

 5     of such events for propaganda purposes and pressure on the Serbian

 6     people, we believe that it is necessary to suggest that the relevant

 7     institutions activate the competent organs in Sanski Most to sanitize the

 8     locations in question.

 9             Now, sir, this last paragraph is about hiding Muslim mass graves;

10     correct?

11        A.   That's one way of interpreting it.  However, I was not at all the

12     involved in all that.  Therefore, I have nothing to say about it.  There

13     was a lot of propaganda, that is true.  And every shortcoming on our

14     side - and there was some, of course - was used in propaganda and to

15     increase pressure on the Serbian people instead of those who created the

16     evil and caused the war.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was about what was envisaged

18     to be done.  Your answer is not about that apart from the beginning where

19     you said:  "That's one way of interpreting it."  However, you were not at

20     all involved in that.  May I take it then also that you mean to say by

21     that that you have no knowledge about it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.  Because this

23     word, "sanitization" --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you don't remember, you don't remember.

25     You don't have to explain why you don't remember.  You don't --

Page 30007

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would like to tender

 4     that document as the next Prosecution exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31795 receives Exhibit Number P7021,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. JEREMY:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Tadic, in your capacity as the head of the Ministry of

11     Defence in -- of Republika Srpska in Sanski Most, you were responsible

12     for work obligation in the municipality; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And those non-Serbs that remained in Sanski Most during the war

15     period were subject to the work obligation; correct?

16        A.   For a while they were not.  Security conditions would not allow

17     for that.  When it was decided that things could be arranged and that

18     people could be engaged safely, the Ministry of Defence of

19     Republika Srpska issued an order to that effect.  There were priorly set

20     up obligation units and Serbs were mobilised into companies and

21     institutions and so on and so forth.  However, when it was assessed that

22     Muslims and Croats could be engaged and that security issues could easily

23     be avoided, that no major incidents could be expected, we wanted to

24     include them and incorporate them to everyday life.

25        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to look at a document in connection with those

Page 30008

 1     duties that you performed and in relation to these work obligations.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31792.

 3        Q.   And, sir, this is a report which I think you'll recognise.  It's

 4     dated the 5th of October, 1994.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to page 2, please, in each language.

 6        Q.   And, sir, we see your name at the bottom of the page and your

 7     signature.  Do you recognise your signature?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go back to page 1, please.

11        Q.   Now, sir, we see that this is a letter from the RS Ministry of

12     Defence, Banja Luka district, department of Sanski Most.  Dated the

13     5th of October, 1994.  It's addressed to the Executive Board of

14     Sanski Most municipality -- sorry, Municipal Assembly, and to the command

15     of the Sana 6th Infantry Brigade.  Now, the subject is:  "Deployment of

16     Work Obligation Units."

17             I would like to look at one or two paragraphs of this document.

18     In the first paragraph we read that:

19             "Over the past 16 months, the Ministry of Defence Department of

20     Sanski Most has deployed work obligation units consisting of non-Serbs,

21     as requested by the VRS and various enterprises, institutions, and

22     individuals."

23             In the next paragraph, in the second sentence, we read that:

24             "... units comprising non-Serbs began to be utilised," and in the

25     sentence before we see from May 1993, "while the other units made up of

Page 30009

 1     Serbs never were."

 2             And now, sir, you were responsible for this -- these

 3     mobilisations of these non-Serbs; correct?

 4        A.   This is about me being tasked with mobilising people with --

 5     talking to them about their future work.  And in the second text, it says

 6     that the utilisation of those units should be handed over to the

 7     Executive Board because, pursuant to that order, they were supposed to

 8     implement that work.  We were in charge of mobilising and sending people

 9     to various places on requests by the military, by the civilian

10     protection, by various institutions and so on and so forth.

11             And here, I really don't understand this sentence.  I know that

12     Serbs were utilised.  I don't see why it says "while the other units made

13     up of Serbs never were."  I really can't make a logical link because I

14     know that there were, i.e. the Serbs were, in work obligation units and

15     they were deployed wherever needed in all the institutions that requested

16     them; whereas Muslims were not before the conditions were put in place

17     for them to participate without expecting any major issues.  That is why

18     the units that had been set up were dispatched on the requests of the

19     military, companies, and other institutions.  And here the point of all

20     this, of this report, is that the Executive Board should be more involved

21     in the utilisation of those units.  I can see that there were not enough

22     people employed for that purpose.

23        Q.   Sir, do you have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the

24     original document that you see on the screen before you, the copy of the

25     original document?

Page 30010

 1        A.   No, no, I don't have a reason for that.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Now, could we please go to page 3 in each language.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, this is a table and it is headed:  "Overview of

 4     Deployment of the Work Obligation Units Composed of Non-Serbs in the

 5     Municipality of Sanski Most."  And down the left side we see the various

 6     locations from which non-Serbs originated and the right side we see the

 7     total of those persons from those locations and that total runs into the

 8     hundreds.

 9             Now, sir, it was your task to select from the available

10     population of non-Serbs in Sanski Most those persons who you considered

11     fit for various jobs and to send them along to perform those jobs;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Now, Your Honours, before I ask the witness the next

15     question, I wonder if it's -- I'd ask that you inform the witness of his

16     rights --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. JEREMY:  -- under Rule 90(E).

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in view of the next questions that will be

20     put to you, Mr. Jeremy asked me to inform you about the following.

21             Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence reads as

22     follows:

23             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

24     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

25     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

Page 30011

 1     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

 2     offence other than false testimony."

 3             In short, if a truthful answer to any of the questions that will

 4     follow would possibly be incriminating for yourself, you may address me

 5     and ask to be relieved from answering that question.  Is that clear?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 8             MR. JEREMY:

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Tadic, of the jobs that you sent non-Serbs to complete,

10     you sent a number of those non-Serbs to the front line to, for example,

11     dig trenches, and in doing so you sent many non-Serbs to their deaths;

12     correct?

13        A.   It is just like using a Serb to send him to the army.  It was

14     wartime --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and there was a need --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, simple question:  Did you send a number of

18     those non-Serbs to the front line?  That's the question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, sending somebody to the

22     regular military.  Now, where that person is going to be utilised, it's

23     up to the military.  It was at the request of the military, a certain

24     number of people were engaged and sent to various commands.  For example,

25     companies, both socially owned and private companies, relied on the same

Page 30012

 1     system.  Just like Serbs were mobilised into the military, Muslims,

 2     Croats, or whoever were mobilised at the request of the army, and they

 3     were handed over to the organisation that requested them, either the

 4     military or a private company or a socially owned company.  From that

 5     moment on it is those companies that requested them that decided how to

 6     use them.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And would they -- a number of them be sent to the

 8     front?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite possible.  It is possible

10     that they were used by the military for certain tasks.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Either the delivery of food and

13     water or --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Witness, that's not what you were asked.  So

15     you say it's possible that they were sent to the front.  Do you have any

16     knowledge whether they were sent there and had to dig trenches?  If you

17     have knowledge, please tell us.  If you don't have any knowledge, please

18     tell us as well.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they were deployed in

20     that way, but I don't know anything specific.  I know that I handed them

21     over to the military, to be used by the military.  And it says in this

22     table here.  It says in the table the military, the front line.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "I know they were deployed in that

24     way ..."  My question was about digging trenches.  Do I understand you to

25     say that they were deployed in, perhaps among other things, also in

Page 30013

 1     digging trenches?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge, no details.  I

 3     can't confirm any of this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then the last part of the question was

 5     whether you know whether some persons sent to the military under this

 6     work obligation, whether they did not return because they died?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many returned -- actually, many

 8     dead Serbian soldiers returned.  There were many things going on on a

 9     daily basis.  People being killed left and right --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, why not answer my question.  My question

11     was whether some of those who were sent there under the work obligation

12     to the army, whether some of them did not return because they died.  I am

13     not asking who returned, but I'm asking whether some did not return

14     because they had died when fulfilling that obligation.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've no specific knowledge.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Sir, you earlier confirmed today that you testified in the

19     Karadzic case and that the answers you gave in that case were truthful.

20     I'd like to show you a portion of your testimony in that case.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31781 on our screens.

22             And I'd like to tender the document we were just looking at.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31792 receives Exhibit Number P7022,

25     Your Honours.

Page 30014

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  And could we go to page 48, please.

 3        Q.   And, sir, I'm afraid we don't have a B/C/S translation of this

 4     transcript, so you'll need to listen to the translation.  I'll read out

 5     the portion I want you to pay attention to and it will be translated to

 6     you.

 7             And, sir, I'm going to focus on questions that were put to you in

 8     relation to the same document that we have just looked at, just one

 9     question and your answer.

10             MR. JEREMY:  So if we could focus on -- into line 7 and below,

11     please.

12        Q.   And we see that the Prosecutor asked you the following question:

13             "Q.  Sending them wherever they were needed included sending them

14     to the front line and sending them to clear minefields and sending them

15     to their deaths; isn't that correct?"

16             Your answer:

17             "I sent many more Serbs to their deaths.  This is all about

18     113 people being sent to the front line.  We, however, sent thousands

19     upon thousands to the front lines.  If I sent thousands of Serbs to the

20     front line, why wouldn't I send a hundred Muslims to carry water, to dig

21     trenches, and so on and so forth?"

22             And I'll end it there.  So do you stand by the answer that you

23     provided in the Karadzic case?

24        A.   The use of those units was defined by order --

25        Q.   Sir, sir --

Page 30015

 1        A.   I mobilised --

 2        Q.   -- I'm very sorry to interrupt you.  But just very simply:  Was

 3     the answer that you gave during your testimony in the Karadzic case

 4     truthful and do you stand by that answer today?

 5        A.   My answer was truthful.  When discussing the topic where I was

 6     more tense than I am now, I said that the use of such units for work

 7     obligation was logical in my view so that Muslims and Croats, too, would

 8     be included in the events, given the fact that there was war, and they

 9     were simply made part of the defence system.  They were not given weapons

10     so as not to be forced to shoot at their compatriots but to assist the

11     army in the performance of its tasks.  As per order which I received,

12     that's how things were implemented.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  So your answer was truthful and you stand by

14     that in this courtroom; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, sir, my final question:  In your statement in paragraph 9,

17     you refer to respect for humanitarian law and the laws of war, and in

18     particular the Geneva Conventions.  Now, do you consider sending

19     non-Serbs to the front lines to be consistent and compatible with the

20     Geneva Conventions?

21        A.   It depends on the manner of use.

22        Q.   Sir --

23        A.   If they were indeed used as a human shield, that would be against

24     the conventions.  But if they were used to bring water and food and to

25     assist with noncombat tasks, that would not fall under that category.

Page 30016

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   So it's important that they are not used as a human shield, as

 3     someone who would be directly exposed to enemy attack.  I certainly hope

 4     that there were no such situations.

 5        Q.   So, sir, sending Serbs [sic] to the front lines to dig trenches,

 6     as you said in the Karadzic case and you've repeated here, do you

 7     consider that to be consistent with the Geneva Conventions?

 8        A.   The sending of Serbs?

 9        Q.   The sending of non-Serbs was my question, or it should have been.

10        A.   It was interpreted to me as "the Serbs."  In my view, any

11     inhumane treatment, including exposing someone to enemy fire, would be in

12     contravention of God's law and human law, thus being against the

13     Geneva Convention.  I condemn any exposure of such people to a danger of

14     being killed by the enemy side.  In my view, it would cause great damage

15     to the Serb people and the Army of Republika Srpska.  I therefore engaged

16     those people as per army request under the understanding that they would

17     be used in a way that would not threaten their life and security.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I will stop you again.  After ten lines

19     you've still not answered the question.

20             Do you consider digging trenches to be among -- digging trenches

21     by non-Serbs, do you consider that to be in violation of the

22     Geneva Conventions?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does if they are exposed to

24     direct gun-fire and in a position to be killed.  So the difference is in

25     how they're used and what the assessment of the officer concerned was at

Page 30017

 1     that moment, whether they were wilfully putting those people in danger to

 2     be killed.  If that was the intent of the officer concerned, then that

 3     would be against the conventions.  But if their security was borne in

 4     mind and if they were used only for tasks that would not endanger their

 5     lives, in my view that would not be against the rules as envisaged.

 6             The intention was not to use those people so as to protect

 7     Serbian lives.  That would not have been a good situation.  I would never

 8     have participated in any such thing had I had any knowledge of any such

 9     use.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you draw a very fine line, digging trenches

11     with danger and digging trenches without danger of being fired at.  Could

12     you tell us where in the Geneva Conventions you find the basis for this

13     distinction?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I make that distinction in my heart

15     of hearts.  If Republika Srpska --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  So it means that you make that distinction --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intent is key.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, I was asking you where in the

19     Geneva Conventions you find the basis for making that distinction and

20     your answer tells me that it was not actually on the basis of the

21     Geneva Conventions that you made that distinction.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, that was your last question?

24             MR. JEREMY:  It was, Your Honours.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tadic.

Page 30018

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Mr. Lukic, could you tell us, we'll take a break, but how much

 3     time you would need after the break?

 4             And meanwhile, the witness can be escorted out of the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying to count my questions.  Probably I should

 7     finish in 15 minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it makes sense to keep the next witness

 9     to remain standby.  No.  Perhaps you need to make some submissions.  I

10     have to read two decisions.  Perhaps we do that to start with after the

11     break.  Then we would conclude the evidence of this witness today.  And

12     then tomorrow the time schedule was, I think, half an hour for the

13     Defence --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Two hours --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- two hours for the Prosecution.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Which makes two and a half hours.  I would expect

18     the parties to do their utmost best to conclude the evidence of the next

19     witness by tomorrow as well so that he doesn't have to return after many,

20     many weeks.  Yes.

21             Then the witness who is at this moment on standby for tomorrow

22     can be -- doesn't need to remain standby and is expected to be here

23     tomorrow at 9.30.

24             We take a break and will resume at quarter to 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

Page 30019

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tadic, you'll now be re-examined by Mr. Lukic.

 5     May I again remind you that you are expected to answer the question,

 6     first of all.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon yet again, Mr. Tadic.

11        A.   Godspeed.

12        Q.   We do not have much time and yet we have to conclude, so I would

13     kindly ask for brief answers.

14             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have P7016, please, on our screens.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic, you were shown these minutes from the

16     extraordinary meeting of the Executive Committee, and we saw already that

17     you were in attendance.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the next page -- in the B/C/S it

19     is actually the next page and in English it is the same page.

20        Q.   You were told that on the 1st of November, 1992, which is at the

21     top of the page, nine members from Skrljevita were killed.  A conclusion

22     was reached --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English, page 4; in B/C/S, 5.

24        Q.   -- to the effect that General Talic should be informed

25     accordingly.  You were a member of the commission.  Do you remember what

Page 30020

 1     you were told?  Were you told to cover anything up or to go public with

 2     it or to speak to Talic or to demand action?  What was the task you

 3     received?

 4        A.   I do not recall the details, but as far as I can remember there

 5     was nothing to hide and that's what I firmly believe in.  God sees

 6     everything and people can only try hiding things but to no avail.  That

 7     is why it was useful to discuss any evil that we may have perpetrated

 8     upon another.  That would be it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P7017, briefly.

11        Q.   It is a decision to separate or split up proceedings.  It is not

12     on the screen yet.  It concerns minors Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vokic.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Goran Vukojevic and

14     Todo Vokic."

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   It was established that on that given date they were minors.  As

17     such, could they have been mobilised in the JNA or the VRS?

18        A.   Later, yes, once they reached their 18th birthday, but not

19     before.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P7020.

21        Q.   It is the minutes of the 7th Session of the Executive Committee

22     of the Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most.  We see your name appearing on

23     the first page; thus, you were in attendance with the members of the

24     Executive Committee.  In item 9 --

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S it is page 6, in the

Page 30021

 1     English version, page 7.  Just to remind you.

 2        Q.   Item 9, point 1, it reads:

 3             "A draft decision on the exhumation of mortal remains from the

 4     cemetery in the town centre ... and the cemetery in Zdena" is thus

 5     endorsed.

 6             Is Zdena a village?

 7        A.   It is in the outskirts of the town.  It is a settlement, part of

 8     the town in the outskirts.

 9        Q.   In the municipality of Sanski Most, were these the only two

10     Muslim cemeteries?

11        A.   No, there were many, many more.  I don't know how many exactly

12     but around 50 or so.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We see in item 4 --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the previous question was about the

15     municipality of Sanski Most.

16             How many Muslim cemeteries were there in the town of Sanski Most,

17     could you tell us?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hail from Palanka, 25 kilometres

19     to the west, so I don't know Sanski Most in detail.  Around a dozen in

20     all likelihood.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that's a calculated guess I then take

22     it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I have no other means of

24     calculating it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 30022

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In any case, would you say that even if these

 3     two cemeteries were completely destroyed and eradicated, would that have

 4     done away with all traces of Muslim cemeteries in the municipality of

 5     Sanski Most?

 6        A.   Definitely not, and that was certainly not the intention.  I

 7     can't remember what the reason was, though.  There must be one but I

 8     don't remember it.  In any case, this was not the reason.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Under 4 in the same document - we have it on our

10     screens - we can see that the chairman called the meeting to order and

11     spoke about the record of military conscripts.  It says here that

12     Boro Tadic spoke about the record that had been established by way of

13     introduction.  Was that your main role at the meeting?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  And there was always a struggle as to how many people

15     should be kept in companies and how many should be sent to the theatre of

16     war, and we can see that people in the companies wanted to keep as many

17     people as possible in order to maintain production, and the military

18     wanted their share.  So there was always a struggle between the two.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I don't know whether you remember whether you stayed

20     at the very end of the session.  Would you usually stay until the end or

21     would you leave after submitting your report?

22        A.   I probably left because I attended only as a guest only because

23     of the item that I reported on.  I was not a member of the

24     Executive Board, and if I'd stayed, I would have had to get involved and

25     discuss issues under other items of the agenda.

Page 30023

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7022 for a

 2     moment.

 3        Q.   It will be the last document that I intend to show you.  My

 4     learned friend Mr. Jeremy showed you this document about the deployment

 5     of work obligation units.  We saw your signature at the end of page 2.

 6     But before that, we have a list of those who were deployed; i.e., those

 7     who had been mobilised.  At that time under the law, were Muslims and

 8     Croats exempt from mobilisation?

 9        A.   No, they were citizens of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   You were a battalion commander in Croatia.  In Croatia did

11     Serbian soldiers dig trenches?

12        A.   Yes, they did.

13        Q.   Do you know whether Serbian soldiers were digging trenches in the

14     war in Bosnia?

15        A.   I was not a commander there, but I suppose that they did dig

16     trenches.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we continue in this line, is the

18     underlying thought that soldiers would not dig trenches for their own

19     army?

20             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's absolutely not.  No --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I --

22             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's normal that somebody who is mobilised

23     should dig trenches.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, members of the army.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I said to the first line, so it's normal for me.

Page 30024

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  Then I misunderstood.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Yeah.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] While you were in the process of creating those

 6     work obligation units, were there any interventions by Serbs to be

 7     transferred from war units to work obligation units?  We have not

 8     discussed that ever before.  I'm asking you now.

 9        A.   There was a lot of pressure put on me to bear.  Many wanted not

10     to be in the army for various reasons.  And then when they had spoken

11     with their company directors and agreed on certain things, they would put

12     pressure on me to include them in a work obligation unit in that company.

13     You can see, for example, Srecko Bulj [phoen], who spoke at that session,

14     insisted to have as many people in the company who would work for him.

15             There was a constant pressure put on me to bear to move people

16     from war units to work obligation units to the companies that wanted to

17     maintain their production.  It was a constant tug-of-war, a constant

18     pressure put on me to bear to strike a certain balance.  On the one hand,

19     there was the military who wanted to have as many military conscripts for

20     war operations, the brigades were deployed all over the place; and on the

21     other hand, there were the needs of the companies and municipalities to

22     maintain production and to have as many assets as possible in operation.

23        Q.   I don't know whether you can tell us or whether -- if you can

24     tell us -- if you can assess what was safer:  To be a member of a war

25     unit or a work obligation unit?

Page 30025

 1        A.   It was much safer to be in a work obligation unit than in a war

 2     unit.  And one of the reasons for all that pressure is not just the need

 3     of the companies but also fear from the whirlwind of war and possible

 4     death on the first line.  Many wanted to be exempted from that rather

 5     than to resort to desertion from a military unit.  There was a lot of

 6     pressure put on me to bear by people who wanted to save themselves from

 7     the first line and to be safer in a work obligation unit.

 8        Q.   Mr. Tadic, thank you.  That was all we had for you.

 9        A.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, any further questions?

11             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  Just one question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

14        Q.   Mr. Tadic --

15             MR. JEREMY:  Actually, could we have on our screens P7020,

16     please.  Those are the minutes of the 7th Session of the

17     Executive Committee.

18        Q.   Now, very briefly, Mr. Tadic, as those minutes are coming up,

19     Mr. Lukic a moment ago asked you whether you remember whether you stayed

20     at the very end of this session and whether you'd usually stay until the

21     end or whether you would leave after you submitting your report, and you

22     said that actually -- you said that:

23             "I probably left because I attended only as a guest ..."

24             Now, sir, I just want to draw your attention to the agenda,

25     point 9.

Page 30026

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 2 in the English, please.

 2        Q.   And we see there the agenda, point 9, endorsing draft decision on

 3     exhumation of mortal remains.  And it goes on to refer to the cemeteries

 4     we've been discussing.  So you would have been there at that point when

 5     you -- at least during that point when that agenda item was raised;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   I can't confirm that.  I can see that my item is under 4, so I

 8     really can't remember whether I stayed until the very end.  There were

 9     cases when I did stay, but there were also other cases when I left

10     sessions after having intervened under my item of the agenda for previous

11     commitments.

12        Q.   Sir, I understand that.  But these are minutes of the session

13     that you attended, and what I'm saying to you is at the very start of

14     those minutes, an agenda item, point 9, was read out relating to this

15     exhumation of these graves, and I'm asking you if it's likely that you

16     would have been present when these agenda items were read out before you

17     spoke at the meeting?

18        A.   Quite possible but I can't remember.  There were many of those.

19     I can't remember.  But it was also common for me to leave earlier.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You've answered my question.

21        A.   Thank you.  Thank God.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.  No further questions by the

23     Bench.

24             Mr. Tadic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to thank

25     you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the

Page 30027

 1     questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by

 2     the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the

 3     usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I wish all of you all the best.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a few minutes left.  We first move into

 7     private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30028

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

Page 30029

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             No other issues.

 3             Then I would like to read, and that might go a couple of minutes

 4     beyond the time, but I nevertheless hope that, with the assistance of the

 5     interpreters and all others who are assisting us, will not -- we'll not

 6     stop halfway.

 7             First is the decision on the admission of P6682, which is a

 8     collection of Council of Europe reports which were marked for

 9     identification pending a possible agreement by the parties.  This can be

10     found at transcript pages 24243 to 24252, and page 24270.  An agreement

11     between the parties was not reached.  The Defence filed its written

12     submissions on the 23rd of September, 2014.

13             The Defence requests the Chamber -- request that the Chamber deny

14     the report's admission into evidence.  It argues, inter alia, that it is

15     improper for the Prosecution to present positive evidence subsequent to

16     the close of its case.  The document does not meet the criteria for

17     admission via cross-examination, and the document contains over 400 pages

18     with no witness to authenticate or explain the content.

19             The Defence submits that the subject matter of the document goes

20     beyond the witness's knowledge and testimony and contains information

21     related to geographical areas also outside the scope of the indictment.

22     Further, the Defence submits that certain parts of the document rely on

23     hearsay and rumours, and that no information is provided on the sources

24     or methodology to ensure the document's reliability.

25             The Prosecution responded on the 3rd of October, 2014, submitting

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 1     that the pages of the report which it tenders are relevant and probative;

 2     thus, meeting the requirements of Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure

 3     and Evidence.

 4             The Prosecution submits that the tendered pages of the report are

 5     relevant to the destruction of mosques in Foca municipality, which forms

 6     part of the indictment against the accused.  According to the

 7     Prosecution, the report has probative value and contains information

 8     regarding its provenance and reliability.  The Prosecution submits,

 9     inter alia, that the Defence's arguments should be rejected because no

10     legal authority has been cited, and the arguments go to weight as opposed

11     to admissibility.  Further, the Prosecution submits that the Defence's

12     arguments regarding its tendering of evidence during cross-examination

13     have previously been rejected by this Chamber.

14             At the outset, the Chamber notes that the Defence's submissions

15     lack any reference to or discussion of the applicable law concerning the

16     admission of evidence and are therefore completely unsupported.

17     Moreover, with regard to the Defence's submission that it is improper for

18     the Prosecution to present positive evidence after the close of its case,

19     the Chamber recalls that in this regard on the 16th of September, 2014,

20     it referred the parties to a decision in the Stanisic and Simatovic case

21     dated the 26th of August, 2011.  The Chamber thus dismisses the Defence's

22     submission that the Prosecution should not be allowed to tender

23     Exhibit P6682 subsequent to the close of its case.

24             The Chamber recalls that the applicable law for the admission of

25     evidence is Rule 89(C) of the Rules which allows a Chamber to admit any

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 1     relevant evidence which it deems to have probative value.  The Chamber

 2     does not consider the criteria submitted by the Defence for admission via

 3     cross-examination to be relevant in this context and thus dismisses the

 4     Defence's argument regarding the same.

 5             The Chamber notes that the Prosecution has only requested the

 6     admission of 13 pages in total.  Therefore, the Chamber considers that

 7     the Defence's argument relating to the length of the document and that it

 8     also relates to areas outside the scope of the indictment is moot.

 9             The Chamber notes that Witness Vujicic provided some information

10     regarding the destruction of mosques in Foca.  The Prosecution discussed

11     with the witness a list in the report of mosques purportedly destroyed in

12     Foca.  The Chamber considers this evidence to be relevant to scheduled

13     incident D5.  With regard to the relevant pages of the report tendered by

14     the Prosecution, the Chamber is of the opinion that the sources of the

15     list are not entirely clear and that some of the language used therein is

16     ambiguous.  The Chamber will, also in light of other evidence before it,

17     take such factors into consideration when deciding the weight to be given

18     to the document, but considers that there is sufficient information

19     regarding the authors, sources of information, and the methodology used

20     for the purposes of admission.  The Chamber therefore finds that the

21     tendered pages of the report are relevant and of probative value.

22             With regard to the other arguments raised by the Defence, the

23     Chamber considers that these go to the weight of the document rather than

24     its admissibility.

25             The Chamber therefore admits into evidence pages 1, 6 through 9,

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 1     12 through 14, and 32 through 36 of P6682.  The Prosecution is instructed

 2     to upload a new version of P6682 reflecting the Chamber's decision, and

 3     the Registry is instructed to make the necessary replacement thereafter.

 4     The Prosecution is invited to upload a B/C/S version of the same, and the

 5     Registry is instructed to attach the translation to P6682 when it becomes

 6     available.  And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the admission of

 7     P6682.

 8             I'll not bother you with the other decision at this moment.

 9     We'll hopefully find time for that one tomorrow.

10             We adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

11     18th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day

14                           of December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.