Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30033

 1                           Thursday, 18 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Judge Fluegge is, for urgent personal reasons, unable to continue

12     sitting in this case, this part-heard case, for a short period - that is,

13     for today - and Judge Moloto and myself have considered whether it would

14     be in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case today and we

15     decided that it was.  Therefore, we'll sit 15 bis today.

16             Yesterday it was announced that there was a short preliminary

17     matter, although not to be dealt with in 30 seconds, to be dealt with

18     before Mr. Milutinovic would start his -- giving his testimony.

19             Who may I address?  Ms. Hasan.

20             MS. HASAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

21             To address this matter, if we can go into private session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30034











11  Pages 30034-30036 redacted.  Private session.















Page 30037

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Milutinovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules require that you make a solemn declaration

21     before you give evidence.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

22     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  MILOVAN MILUTINOVIC

Page 30038

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Milutinovic.

 3             Mr. Milutinovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You

 4     find Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is counsel -- is a member of

 5     the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 8        Q.   Sir, I wish you a good day.

 9        A.   Your Honours, Prosecutors, General Mladic, good morning to you

10     all.

11        Q.   Sir, can you please state your full name for the record.

12        A.   Milovan Milutinovic, my father's name was Mico.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If I can call up in e-court 1D1743.

14        Q.   Sir, there is a signature on the first page of this statement.

15     Can you tell us whose signature appears on this first page?

16        A.   This is my signature.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can now turn to the last page of the

18     document.

19        Q.   Whose signature is visible on this last page of the document,

20     sir?

21        A.   Again, mine.

22        Q.   Sir, subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion

23     to read the same to check if everything is correctly written in it?

24        A.   I read it a few times.  I believe it's accurate.

25        Q.   If asked questions on the same topics as contained in your

Page 30039

 1     statement today, would your answers be the same today as contained in

 2     your statement?

 3        A.   I would probably provide a much longer statement.  However, I was

 4     directed by the lawyers to make my statement as short and as concise as

 5     possible, but I wouldn't change anything in it.

 6        Q.   You have taken a declaration to tell the truth today.  Does that

 7     mean that the answers as recorded in your statement are truthful in

 8     nature?

 9        A.   Precisely in keeping with the solemn declaration that I just

10     gave, everything I stated is truthful and correct.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would tender 1D1743 into evidence.

13     There are no associated exhibits with this document.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01743 receives Exhibit Number D862,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D862 is admitted.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have a public summary to read of the

21     witness statement, the topic of the same, which has been advised to the

22     witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

24             MR. IVETIC:  From 1992 to 1994, Colonel Milovan Milutinovic was

25     chief of the press centre and chief of information service at the command

Page 30040

 1     of the 5th JNA Corps which became the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS.  From

 2     1994 to 1996, he was the head of information service and centre for

 3     information and propaganda activities of the Main Staff of the VRS.

 4             The witness hails from the village of Trnopolje, near Prijedor.

 5     He notes that during World War II the Ustasha murdered 700.000 Serbs,

 6     Jews, and Roma in Jasenovac, and that 450 Serbs of Kozarac were murdered

 7     by their Muslim and Croat neighbours at that time, including the

 8     witness's grandfather and ten relatives.

 9             The witness recalled that Sarajevo and the other declared safe

10     zones were supposed to be demilitarised but that UNPROFOR commander

11     Briquemont confirmed the Muslims are using the zones protected by the UN

12     to mount attacks on the Serb positions from there.

13             The witness recalled that Muslim forces in Sarajevo breached the

14     cease-fire agreement on 21 May 1995 by attacking Serb positions from the

15     safe area of Sarajevo.  On this occasion, the Muslim forces were

16     supported by artillery fire from the Egyptian Battalion of UNPROFOR.  He

17     held an international press conference of the Main Staff where the

18     violation of the cease-fire and the abuse of authority by the Egyptian

19     Battalion were protested against by General Mladic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you're reading.

21             MR. IVETIC:  The witness further recalled that in relation to

22     Markale 2, that Russian investigative teams involved in the UNPROFOR

23     joint commission established that some victims of Markale 2 were

24     individuals who had perished earlier and whose bodies had been exchanged

25     prior to Markale 2.

Page 30041

 1             Per the witness, research shows the Muslim authorities sacrificed

 2     their own compatriots in a bread-line massacre in 1992 in addition to

 3     both Markale incidents and opened fire on their own people, journalists,

 4     and UNPROFOR to blame the Serbs.

 5             The witness recalled that at the BiH Assembly Alija Izetbegovic

 6     stated:

 7             "For a sovereign BiH, I am even willing to sacrifice peace."

 8             Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature on the already concluded

 9     Cutileiro Peace Agreement on the advice of American Ambassador Zimmerman.

10             Since the beginning of 1991, the Muslim leadership was preparing

11     in an organised manner for an armed conflict.  In a magazine interview

12     with Izetbegovic from 1994, Izetbegovic said that the Patriotic League

13     was established on 10 June 1991 to prepare the people for defence and arm

14     them.  The Patriotic League had nine regional and 103 municipal staff

15     with 98.000 armed combatants, according to General Sefer Halilovic.

16             The arrival of Mujahedin to Bosnia ensued after the Grand Mufti

17     and Alija Izetbegovic issued a fatwa on jihad.

18             As to Srebrenica, the witness recalls that General Mladic

19     received a delegation of Muslims that that expressed their wish to leave.

20             Mladic told them.

21             "... I give my word of a general that all those who gather around

22     the check-point in Potocari can choose whether to go to Yugoslavia, to

23     the Federation, or to stay in Republika Srpska ... I guarantee you full

24     freedoms and rights ..."

25             When the talks with the Muslims were finished, he told

Page 30042

 1     General Krstic:

 2             "... behave like knights.  I gave my word of a general.  No one

 3     must be harmed ..."

 4             The witness remembers being on Boksanica hill in July 1995 near

 5     Zepa with General Mladic when General Rupert Smith, in the presence of

 6     UNHCR, OSCE, and US officials --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  -- commended General Mladic for the treatment of the

 9     Srebrenica population by the VRS, and asked for fair treatment of the

10     Zepa population which General Mladic promised.

11             The witness is of the opinion that as an officer and a man

12     General Mladic could never issue an order that would be in contravention

13     of the Geneva Conventions.  The witness is deeply sorry about all the

14     victims, and believes the real perpetrators should answer for these

15     crimes.

16             And that ends the summary of the statement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any further questions for the witness,

18     please put them to him.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Sir, I'd like to look at paragraph 14 [sic] to be found on

21     page 25 in both versions of your statement.

22             Sir, this attack by the ABiH which violated the cease-fire and

23     when the Egyptian Battalion participated in the same, what response, if

24     any, was there by UNPROFOR after your press conference and

25     General Mladic's protests?

Page 30043

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you dealing with paragraph 14?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  114, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  114, I'm sorry.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 114?  That's correct.  After the

 5     ABH army attacked from Sarajevo with the artillery support from the

 6     UNPROFOR contingent, together with General Mladic, we organised a press

 7     conference at Pale.  I condemned the unilateral violation of the

 8     cease-fire by the Muslim forces.  My position at that press conference

 9     was that the United Nations thus sided up with just one -- with just one

10     side during the conflict in Bosnia.

11             To answer your question:  As far as I know, we --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the best words spoken until now, "to answer

13     your question," because you're supposed to do nothing else than to answer

14     the question.  It was not whether you gave a press conference.  That was

15     all the included in the question.  What was the response, if any, by

16     UNPROFOR to that press conference and the protests.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] UNPROFOR didn't react at all.  The

18     Serbian forces in Jahorinski Potok were bombarded by NATO in retaliation

19     against the Army of Republika Srpska.  In other words, there was no

20     objective answer from that side.  No response at all.

21             MR. IVETIC:  If we can look at paragraph 44, found on page 12 in

22     the English, page 11 in the Serbian.

23        Q.   In this paragraph you talk of Penny Marshall filming from within

24     a fenced-in warehouse, filming the people at Trnopolje who were outside

25     the fenced-in area.  Did you ever talk to Ms. Marshall about why she was

Page 30044

 1     filming in this manner?

 2        A.   First of all, I received an order concerning a group of foreign

 3     journalists who had arrived from London.  There were some 30 of them.  I

 4     was to take them to Prijedor, Trnopolje, and Omarska.  I was against that

 5     because --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, please start by answering the

 7     question.  Did Penny Marshall, did you ever talk to her about why she was

 8     filming in this way?  So we would like to hear about any conversation you

 9     may have had with Penny Marshall on this subject.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need to explain.  I

11     took 30 journalists first to the staff for the talks there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, to some extent that's already

13     in your statement.  And apart from that, it's the question and it's

14     Mr. Ivetic who defines what we would like to hear from you.  Did you have

15     any conversation with Penny Marshall on this subject?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For her own security she entered

17     the compound that had a wire fence around it and started recording.  When

18     I mentioned that, when I warned her about it --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She went in to protect herself from

21     extremists.  And when I asked her why she did that, she said --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat that last part.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She told me that because of her own

25     personal security, safety, she entered the construction material depot

Page 30045

 1     and started recording because she was afraid of the reaction of the

 2     people around her.  But when I warned her that she had abused our

 3     hospitality, she said that that footage that was recorded would not be

 4     broadcast.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to turn to page 26 in the English and

 7     it's at the bottom of page 25, on the top of page 26 in the Serbian.

 8        Q.   And paragraph 118 of your statement.  Sir, here I want to ask

 9     you:  How did you come to learn of these conclusions by the Russian

10     members of the UNPROFOR joint commission that these -- that the Markale

11     victims consisted of bodies killed prior and exchanged prior?

12        A.   The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska received

13     information from the investigative commission, Russian component, who was

14     investigating what happened in Markale II.  And in that report it said

15     that some previously killed persons were found among the bodies who had

16     been probably exchanged a few days before between the Muslim and Serbian

17     side.  So the information service made an announcement of the Main Staff

18     and in the information we mentioned the data we received from the Russian

19     members of the commission.

20        Q.   Sir, what reaction, if any, did you note from General Smith or

21     UNPROFOR following this information?

22        A.   There was no reaction.  Quite the opposite.  A couple of days

23     later Republika Srpska -- actually, the 15-day bombing started of the

24     whole territory of Republika Srpska by the NATO airforce.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 30046

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a few follow-up questions in relation to this.

 4             Was it verified, were those persons identified who had been

 5     exchanged?  Was the identity known of those persons?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I personally don't

 7     know that.  We just received the information from the Russian delegation

 8     which was part of the investigation team, so I cannot really give you an

 9     affirmative answer to that because there was no time to check this,

10     either.  My information service was not obliged to check or verify this.

11     The documents we received from them were part of the Main Staff archives,

12     and they went together with UNPROFOR.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was -- were the identities of those persons

14     verified later?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you said "probably they were exchanged."

17     So do I understand that that's just a probability and not for a fact?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that we received from

19     the Russian part of the commission said that.  I don't know anything

20     different.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That document you are talking about we -- this

22     witness often refers to documents of which I'm not always certain whether

23     we have them or not.  Does it ring any bell as to what exhibit we should

24     look at or is any of the parties inclined or intending to provide such

25     documents?

Page 30047

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I can say that I was planning on

 2     searching through it.  I, from off the top of my head, had not recalled a

 3     single document of this nature, which is why I have asked the witness to

 4     give further details because I was -- when I read the statement I did not

 5     recall a document of that nature.  But I will, of course, endeavour to

 6     find it if it exists because I think it would be very helpful for us.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  As you know, we have no documents from this

 9     report, and I'm not aware of any Russian -- such Russian documents.

10     We'll, of course --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- look for that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Witness, this Chamber, if you could assist us in finding the

15     document, then of course the Chamber would -- would be happy to receive

16     any document which is not known to it until now.  So if you would have it

17     or know where it is, don't hesitate to tell us.

18             Please proceed.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents that were in

20     the Main Staff archives.  The bulk of the archives were taken by UNPROFOR

21     in the presence of President Biljana Plavsic from the base in

22     Han Pijesak.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that assistance.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 30048

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

 4        Q.   Sir, if you could clarify for us, was it UNPROFOR or IFOR that

 5     took those documents?

 6        A.   IFOR.  In 1996.  It was IFOR.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now I want to look at page 8 in the English, page 7

 8     in the Serbian, and paragraph 24 of your statement.  Here you talk of the

 9     presence of the Croatian army in Bosnia.  Are you aware if General Mladic

10     or the Main Staff ever advised UNPROFOR of the presence of these Croatian

11     troops in Bosnia?

12        A.   I myself believe that the Main Staff of Republika Srpska sent

13     protests more than ten times to the UNPROFOR command and to the

14     United Nations regarding the presence of some 10- to 15.000 regular

15     Croatian army forces, which constituted an aggression on the Republic of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  In that regard, we had the United Nations

17     Secretary General send a strong protest requesting Croatia to withdraw

18     their forces from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  In response to that, Croatia

19     said that there was an agreement between Bosnia and Herzegovina and

20     Croatia from June 1991, and that is what they used to justify the

21     presence of their forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22             Somewhat later in 1995 General Mladic and I held a press

23     conference in Banja Luka where we mentioned all the Croatian army

24     brigades that took part in the aggression.

25        Q.   Okay.  If we can move to paragraph 50 of your statement, found on

Page 30049

 1     page 12 in the Serbian, page 13 in the English.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are those protests, written protests, are

 3     they - and I'm looking at the parties - are they somewhere in evidence or

 4     are they --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know -- do you know where they are, these

 7     protests?

 8             Witness?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these documents are contained

10     in the Main Staff archives, documents sent to UNPROFOR and the

11     United Nations.  I am sure that that exists, but they just need to be

12     admitted into the case file.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I can check on that.  I do recall at least one of --

14     one such document that I used with General Smith which I believe is the

15     letter from General Janvier from General Mladic, but I can -- I can get

16     back to you on that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It could be.  But, Witness, as you may understand,

18     this Chamber, whenever you refer to any documents or any information we'd

19     like to know exactly what documents do exist and where that information

20     is to be found and where it comes from.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   I believe we were going to paragraph 50, found on page 12.  If

24     we're there.

25             Sir, in this paragraph you say the international public was

Page 30050

 1     silent about the Mujahedin presence until the arrived of the Americans as

 2     part of IFOR.  What happened and what changed with the arrival of the

 3     Americans in regard to the Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   The US administration and the entire European public was

 5     permanently aware of the arrival of the Mujahedin to Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     which is confirmed by a study of the offensives on the Balkans where he

 7     says that there were --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

 9        Q.   Sir, could you --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could you again slow down.  The interpreters are

13     unable to follow your speed of speech.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] US journalists began to write about

15     the Mujahedin more objectively and in more detail only after the end of

16     the war when the decision was made for the IFOR forces to arrive to

17     implement peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina whereby the key role was played by

18     US troops.  In that regard, Joseph Bosanski, director of the Centre for

19     Strategic Research wrote about the Balkans and the presence of 12- to

20     18.000 Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina and how they posed a latent danger

21     for all international forces that would be found in order to implement

22     the peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23             It is well known that Islamic forces arrived in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the request of Alija Izetbegovic and Reis Ceric,

25     who in 1992 proclaimed jihad, meaning a call to all Muslims of the world

Page 30051

 1     to join the fight against the infidel Serbs and Croats.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in your statement you say 8- to 12.000.  I

 4     just heard you say 12- to 18.000.  Which of the two is the correct

 5     reflection of what was written by Mr. Bosanski?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpretation was

 7     incorrect:  8- to 12.000.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  My last question deals with paragraph 30 of your

11     statement found on page 9 in both versions.

12             Sir, in this paragraph you identify journalists working at the

13     press centre that were Croat or Muslim in ethnicity and that remained

14     throughout the war.  Were these journalists members of any army, and if

15     so, which army were they members of?

16        A.   Thank you for this question.  The press centre of the corps and

17     the Main Staff also had journalists who were Croats and Muslims.  I just

18     briefly mentioned that in the statement.  I mentioned two of them.  They

19     were members of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I have to say that other

20     than that, the 1st Krajina Corps also had a Muslim battalion called

21     Mesa Selimovic from Derventa that comprised an all Muslim personnel

22     including the commander of the brigade.

23        Q.   Sir, on behalf of the General Mladic and the rest of my team I

24     thank you for answering my questions this morning.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.

Page 30052

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             Mr. Milutinovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey.

 3     You'll find Mr. McCloskey to your right.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel for

 4     the Prosecution.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   It appeared to me that you understand some English; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   None at all?

12        A.   No, none at all.

13        Q.   And in your position at the Main Staff's centre for information

14     and propaganda, did you consider yourself a professional propagandist?

15        A.   I must say -- may I answer?  Is this a question?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's a question.  You may answer the question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our earlier composition of the

18     Yugoslav People's Army, by establishment there was a section that was

19     dealing with propaganda and information.  But the propaganda was not

20     conceived in the way certain circles are implementing that; for example,

21     the Armed Forces of the United States and the French.  In their case

22     these are psych-ops.  Propaganda in the classical sense is not propaganda

23     but just dealing with facts with the objective of persuading appropriate

24     circles about the need to implement specific solutions or to accept

25     existing positions.  So in that sense the propaganda was directed

Page 30053

 1     primarily towards one's own citizens and population in order to inform

 2     them and to prepare them in order to carry out the suitable mobilisation

 3     in order to be able to wage a defensive war.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Well, thank you for that definition of propaganda.  That wasn't

 6     my question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you ask whether the witness considers himself to

 8     be a propagandist, then of course there should be clarity about what

 9     propaganda and what a propagandist is.  So in that respect, I must --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was my next question as I agree with you.

13     But before I get there, I would like to know if he does --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- so that his answer will have more meaning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   So do you consider yourself -- did you at that time consider

19     yourself a propagandist?

20        A.   I completed senior JNA political school for political information

21     and morale, and I am responsible in my opinion for that area.  I also

22     carried out some propaganda tasks, but I believe that I was not a

23     propagandist per se in that sense of the word.

24        Q.   Did you disseminate VRS propaganda to your own people?

25        A.   This was in my job description and part of the remit of the press

Page 30054

 1     centre for information and propaganda services of the Army of Republika

 2     Srpska.

 3        Q.   So you did disseminate VRS propaganda?

 4        A.   Absolutely, meaning that it involved truthful information,

 5     presentation of appropriate positions, and informing the population about

 6     the need to mobilise assets and means in order to be able to carry out a

 7     defence.

 8        Q.   It's your position that the VRS propaganda was truthful?

 9        A.   Yes, for the most part it was truthful.

10        Q.   Was the Muslim propaganda truthful?

11        A.   For the most part, yes.

12        Q.   And the Croat propaganda --

13        A.   That is how we understood propaganda.  That of the Croats as

14     well, yes.

15        Q.   And did the international forces use propaganda in the media?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17        Q.   And you felt that was truthful as well?

18        A.   For the most part, yes.  I just have to differentiate here.  In

19     our language I have to make a difference between "propaganda" and

20     "manipulation," as well as psychological activities that at a certain

21     point were waged against the Serbian people by certain Western circles.

22        Q.   Who wrote your statement, Defence 862?

23        A.   The statement that we were reading out now, is that the one you

24     mean?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 30055

 1        A.   The attorneys worked on it together with me.

 2        Q.   So the attorneys actually typed it up?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And --

 5        A.   I mean those -- Lukic and his colleague, the two people who are

 6     mentioned in the statement.

 7        Q.   And who provided the information that went into what they were

 8     typing?

 9        A.   I did.  Who else could it have been?  They were interviewing me.

10     And then when they drafted the final document, they gave it to me to see

11     whether I agreed with it and I did.

12        Q.   And did you check the sources you make?  You make many media and

13     other sources.  Did you check those sources to make sure they're

14     accurate?

15        A.   I did check all the sources.  For the most part they are correct.

16     I published four studies about the war in Bosnia, and I think here you

17     have all four of my published books and they also refer to appropriate

18     sources.

19        Q.   For the most part they're correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So that suggests part of it's not correct?

22        A.   There are some sources in the statement about which in the

23     meantime I did not provide verification material.  I don't have for them

24     sources where this information comes from, but I do have that information

25     and there are documents to substantiate those items.

Page 30056

 1        Q.   So you've just said you've got information in the report that you

 2     have provided no verification material.  All right.  I'll go on.

 3             Let's go to your report, D862, page 24 in the English.  It also

 4     should be page 24 in the B/C/S.  Looking at the paragraphs 109.  You're

 5     talking about situations here where you're saying the Muslims killed or

 6     terrorised their own people.  And on paragraph 110, you say:

 7             "There are numerous other testimonies by Western reporters about

 8     the Muslim forces abusing their fellow citizens in order to accuse the

 9     Serbs and ensure the engagement of NATO in support of the Muslim forces.

10     Thus, the British journalist Martin Bell wrote in the 'Sunday':  'I felt

11     like a poor foot soldier in the army whose entire Muslim command lost

12     their mind and terrorised their own people - and I told them that,' wrote

13     Martin Bell on 3 July 1994 in the 'Independent Sunday' about the media

14     manipulation after his stay in the BiH."

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now I want to go to 65 ter 31811.

16        Q.   We did go to the 3rd July 1994 "Sunday Independent" that you cite

17     in your statement, and we did find a quote from Martin Bell.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 4 in the English.

19        Q.   And we translated part of it.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 1 of the B/C/S.

21        Q.   So that you can read it.  But I will read some of this out loud.

22     We see that it's under the heading in this lengthy article called:

23     "Real-time reporting can have direct short-term effect on events.  Here

24     are examples."  Then we'll go down to the part we translated for you, and

25     it gives an example of the controversial British air-lift after the BBC

Page 30057

 1     report about Irma Hadzimuratovic on a light weekend news day last August

 2     showed the power and resentment television crews can make.

 3             "Irma's story struck an emotional cord with viewers in a way less

 4     personalised coverage could not have done.  The media clamour for action

 5     saved Irma and resulted in offers of 1800 hospital beds worldwide, which

 6     the aid agencies could not otherwise have secured."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not found it yet in the English version,

 8     Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be page 4 in the English version.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Just above the middle of the page, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry.  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

15        Q.   And then starting with the paragraph that says:

16             "But the process created a bitter, destabilising inter-agency

17     confrontation over the priorities in evacuation procedures for the

18     injured.  Some found it hard to comprehend the actions of the news

19     organisations and the British government," quote, from Martin Bell, "'I

20     felt like a humble foot soldier in an army whose high command had taken

21     leave of its collective senses - and I told them so,' said Martin Bell."

22             Now, to remind us what you said in support of your theory that

23     the Muslims were killing themselves, quote from your report:

24             "I felt like a poor foot soldier in the army whose entire Muslim

25     command lost their mind and terrorised their own people - and I told them

Page 30058

 1     that."

 2             Now, your quote adds "Muslim command" and "terrorised their own

 3     people."  And we can see from Mr. Bell's quote he is talking about an

 4     issue he has with his own government and how they reacted to this

 5     situation.

 6             How on earth, sir, did you do this to Martin Bell's quote?

 7        A.   I must say that I don't speak English, I don't read English.  I

 8     used a Tanjug report.  Perhaps I should have added who my source was

 9     because I used the Tanjug report, and I am talking about the

10     Belgrade-based news agency.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask you the following:  Is it true that

12     whatever reference, direct reference to English texts or English

13     publications, that you have not verified them?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not verify them because --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  You've answered --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I thought the Tanjug was a

17     trustworthy agency.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

22             We'll take a break, Witness, and we'd like to see you back in

23     20 minutes.  You may follow the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

Page 30059

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the

 4     courtroom.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Colonel, on paragraph 85 of your statement you say that you give

 9     an interview with the Netherlands Institute on War Documentation, known

10     as NIOD, who we've heard a little bit about in this courtroom, and I

11     would like to take you to their report of your interview.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is at 65 ter 31807.  It should be

13     page 13 in the English and page 13 in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And on paragraph -- what they note as their paragraph 53 of their

15     notes or their statements on your interview, they say that you -- you

16     provided information, and I quote, that:

17             "During a military operation, Milutinovic and his assistants were

18     not allowed in the operations area."

19             Is that correct, that during military operations you and your

20     assistants were not allowed in the operations area?

21        A.   This is wrong, wrongly interpreted.  This conversation was of a

22     private nature, and I sent a protest letter asking why a document of that

23     kind was ever submitted to the Tribunal, since it was a free-flowing

24     conversation between two historians who wanted to take a closer look at

25     the situation.  During the military operation not just me but

Page 30060

 1     journalists, teams of journalists were not allowed to enter the zone of

 2     Srebrenica.  Why am I saying this?  Because I, my journalist, and my

 3     photographer, came to Srebrenica to talk to the Dutch Battalion, and on

 4     the following day I was to attend --

 5        Q.   Sir -- sir --

 6        A.   -- the talks between General Mladic and --

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, we may get into that narrative but I think you've

 8     answered my question in some way.  Let me ask you another part of it.  It

 9     also goes on to say: "They were never informed in advance of planned

10     operation," meaning you and your team were never performed -- or, excuse

11     me, you were never informed in advance of planned operations.  Is that

12     true?  Was that the way it was, that the -- the press information and

13     propaganda people weren't given prior notice of operations?

14        A.   This proves that in the military there was a mismatch between the

15     real needs and -- what was needed and what existed in the field.

16     Although we were an integral part of the Army of Republika Srpska,

17     journalists were considered --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, you can insist on an answer to your

19     question.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Yeah, it was a simple question:  Were you and your people not --

22     were never informed in advance of planned operations?

23        A.   Not always but occasionally, yes.  For -- we were not informed

24     about certain operations because they were carried out at the tactical

25     and operational level.  But we were informed about larger-scale

Page 30061

 1     operations.

 2             I read NIOD's report.  There are a lot of misinterpretations.

 3     I've not seen this document before, mind you.

 4        Q.   You haven't seen your report of your interview from NIOD, is what

 5     you mean?  What I've just read out to you.

 6        A.   During the proofing, yes.  However, prior to that, five years ago

 7     when it was drafted I didn't see it.

 8        Q.   So the Defence went over your NIOD interview with you in

 9     proofing?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And you made comments on that to them?

12        A.   Yes, that there are a lot of inadequate translations.  For

13     example, I said that Zoran Petrovic-Pirocanac received 700 German marks,

14     and here it says 700.000 German marks.  You see, this is an example.

15     During the operation, journalists were denied access, and it says here --

16        Q.   All right, let's --

17        A.   -- that me and my assistants were denied access.  So the

18     translations are all inadequate.

19        Q.   Let's go to your statement.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  862, D862, page 19 in the English, page 18 in the

21     B/C/S.

22        Q.   I am surprised to see that with your feelings about NIOD you have

23     actually cited NIOD as part of your report.  But given that, let me read

24     something that you say here and ask you some questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, but stop me, Mr. McCloskey, if it's

Page 30062

 1     a matter that you would touch upon anyhow.

 2             In what language was that interview conducted?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbian.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that the -- your --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had an English interpreter and

 6     the doctor was Dutch.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I just wanted to know.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, I can also perhaps clarify.  The

10     original of this document shown by Mr. McCloskey was in Dutch, and then

11     the translations into B/C/S and English.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there is any concerns about Dutch-English,

13     then I -- even I might cast an eye on it.

14             Please proceed.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question would be, do we have the Dutch

16     original?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There are many, many thousands of pages.  It is

18     on the Internet.  I don't suggest it would be a great idea to get into

19     that.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  However, it's --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- just this part?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  This interview.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This interview.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  This interview with the witness --

Page 30063

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If you're speaking of the notes of the interview

 3     with the witness, that I do not believe is part of the report.  That

 4     was --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we always ask the witness to answer the

 6     question.  The question is there is a Dutch version of this interview.

 7     Is that available, yes or no?  The interview is we see English, we see

 8     B/C/S.  Is this taken from a Dutch original and is that Dutch original

 9     available, yes or no?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have a Dutch report in -- I don't know if it's

11     an original or not.  I don't know if they consider it --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's --

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- Dutch or not.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, after the break I would like to hear

15     from the Prosecution whether what is shown to us now, that seems to be

16     the report on an interview, whether that's available in the Dutch

17     language and whether the original is --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Dutch.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it is.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it can be seen at 65 ter 31807.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I'm telling you this because -- yes, I see it

24     already.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, but this --

Page 30064

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's all fine --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  There is a problem with the B/C/S channel, I'm told.

 3     The last several lines have not been coming through to Mr. Stojanovic or

 4     to Mr. Mladic.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I know it's confusing but now we have the

 6     report of the interview on, before that we had the witness's statement on

 7     to the ICTY.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, what we have now is the -- apparently is

 9     the report on the conversation with Mr. Milutinovic on 20 and 22nd of

10     March, 2000, and someone from the NIOD being present.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And that's what I read to him in the

12     English, the part about planned or operations.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps for others it's better not to stay

14     with the Dutch, though Judge Moloto might understand some of it.  But we

15     are back in English now, and I -- if it is -- please proceed,

16     Mr. McCloskey.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just going to say, if we look at that

18     paragraph we can see whether it's 700 or 7.000, even if we don't know

19     Dutch.  At least that we can see.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And -- yes, it's a good idea.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, let's -- we have paragraph 85 now on our screen

22     which is about the number of written pages, which is not the same as the

23     amount that was supposed to be paid to Mr. Petrovic.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think it was paragraph 53.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It was paragraph 53, if we could go back to the

Page 30065

 1     Dutch original.  And I think that we can all see that it says 700.000.

 2             So if -- when we can go back to the witness's ICTY statement,

 3     D862, page 19 in the English, page 18 in the B/C/S.  And I'm looking at

 4     paragraph 85, if we could blow that up.

 5        Q.   Where you say in your report, I won't read it all, but we do say

 6     that you talk about the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation which

 7     established after five years of research and 7.000 written pages that

 8     there were no plans whatsoever to commit crimes against the Muslim

 9     population in Srebrenica by either the civilian --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not quoting correctly, Mr. McCloskey.  It

11     says that "no evidence was found about" which is not the same as what you

12     read.  It says not that there were no plans whatsoever, it says that

13     there was no evidence about plans.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mine --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the same.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  What I'm reading, Mr. President, says:

17             "After five years of research and 7.000 written pages, that there

18     were no plans whatsoever to commit crimes against the Muslim population

19     in Srebrenica by either the civilian or the military authorities of

20     Republika Srpska and the FRY."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then it continues that:

22             "The NIOD report was published in August 2002 and it explicitly

23     states that no evidence was found about planning and the commission of

24     genocide."

25             So there may be even some inconsistency within this one

Page 30066

 1     paragraph, whether it is a positive finding of there being no planning or

 2     the absence of any evidence that there was planning.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- and you interrupted me as I was reading it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do agree that I was reading a few lines

 7     further down with more or less the same language.  And I should not have

 8     interrupted you at that point in time.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12             I'll keep going where you left off.

13             "Their report confirms that there were crimes around Srebrenica,

14     but according to their research, those were individual crimes as a result

15     of extremism of certain armed groups."

16             Now I would like to go to part of this voluminous NIOD report,

17     65 ter 31809.  It should be page 7 in the English, page 1 in the B/C/S.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, just for my -- for myself, is

19     there -- in the Dutch version is that also uploaded of the report?  It's

20     not uploaded.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, fine.  Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I won't read the first two paragraphs, but we can

24     see that they are -- it's talking about Srebrenica enclave and -- a bit.

25        Q.   The second paragraph begins with:

Page 30067

 1             "There is absolutely no doubt that the mass murder was committed

 2     by Bosnian Serb military units."

 3             And then the -- I'll read most of the third paragraph.  And I'll

 4     quote NIOD saying:

 5             "There can be little doubt that the mass executions were

 6     carefully planned and organised.  The hypothesis that they were more or

 7     less spontaneous as things 'got out of hand' is untenable.  This said,

 8     certain of the smaller-scale killings, such as those at Kravica,

 9     Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, and Baljkovica, may have fallen into this

10     category.  It has not yet been determined who gave the order for these

11     mass executions and whether the decision to proceed in this manner was a

12     political or a military one.  The larger-scale executions certainly

13     demanded a degree of prior planning and organisation.  In a generally

14     well-structured and disciplined army such as the VRS, this would have

15     required the foreknowledge and co-operation of the commanders.  Transport

16     had to be arranged for both prisoners and firing squads, bulldozers had

17     to be deployed to - literally - cover up the consequences.  It may still

18     be possible to contend that the first executions were carried out by

19     special units on the orders of the General Staff and by units of the

20     Ministry of Home Affairs.  However, it is clear that regular VRS units

21     became embroiled in the crimes, supplying both personnel and equipment.

22     These units would also have been involved in seeking locations for

23     temporary detention of the men and suitable locations for executions,

24     these locations being found at ever greater distances from Srebrenica.

25             "It seems improbable that the mass murder was planned well in

Page 30068

 1     advance, although some Bosnians believe otherwise."

 2             So, sir, if we go back to your statement to the ICTY, and I quote

 3     page -- at your paragraph 85:

 4             "The NIOD report was published on 10 August 2002 and it

 5     explicitly states that no evidence was found about planning and the

 6     commission of genocide against the population in Srebrenica," as well as

 7     the rest of your paragraph which suggests.

 8             So how can you make this conclusion, sir?  You obviously didn't

 9     read the NIOD report, did you?

10        A.   When you were reading you yourself said that everything started

11     from probabilities, that they didn't establish anything.  NIOD says that

12     there is no proof that executions had been planned.  Second of all, a

13     summary of this was published by IFP, and I just conveyed that.  In my

14     statement I never quoted that.  I just gave an account of what was

15     reported by the IFP agency.

16        Q.   So like you blame the last agency, you're saying it's the IP

17     agency that made this conclusion about no planning and that's how this

18     got into your report?

19        A.   I'm talking about that one agency.  The first report was based on

20     Tanjug, and this information was based on the AFP report as the first

21     agency that ever published that information.

22        Q.   So as part of your report, you're really not getting into the

23     primary source materials to determine reality from fiction, are you?

24        A.   What do you mean "fabrication"?  I did not fabricate anything.  I

25     just relied on a summary of the AFP News.  Second of all, I used NIOD's

Page 30069

 1     information that the Tribunal had received my information which was

 2     shared in a free-flowing conversation that was held in Banja Luka

 3     14 years ago.  It was a long time ago, you know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're moving away from what the question

 5     is about.  What Mr. McCloskey puts to you is that in your statement you

 6     do not say:  "I read an excerpt or a summary of a report of NIOD prepared

 7     by agency so-and-so and they report that this is the case," but you -- in

 8     your statement you say the report says this, whereas I understand you

 9     have not read the report.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  7.000 pages.  I don't read

11     Dutch.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have an opportunity to

14     see it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not blaming you for not having read it.  What

16     I'm saying to you is that your statement is inaccurate in this respect

17     because it suggests that you read it and that you reflect what is in the

18     report, whereas what you actually did is to read a summary.

19             Now could you --

20             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's inaccurate.  I hope that we would agree

22     on that.  Then second, if you say it is the summary which was produced,

23     do you still have a copy of the source you did consult and you did rely

24     on when giving this statement?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have time to bring this.

Page 30070

 1     If I'd known that it would be necessary.  I was hoping that all the

 2     reports are here and that there was no need for me to --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, all the original material is here.  But the

 4     press clippings or the press messages you rely upon may not be here.  So

 5     if at any stage you would still have it or still remember it or have it

 6     somewhere on your computer or whatever, then perhaps you could give it to

 7     the Tribunal so that we know -- although, we are more interested in

 8     primary sources than in what the press writes about a report.

 9             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Colonel, why are you citing NIOD for authority when you're

13     actually referring to some AP Press article?  What kind of work product

14     is that?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we can have some clarification.

16     Mr. McCloskey has gone from IFP, AFP, now to AP.  As I understand it,

17     those could be three different agencies.  I'm no longer certain of

18     what --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

20             MR. IVETIC:  -- what's actually said.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what press agency it exactly is not the core

22     of the problem.  Mr. McCloskey asked you why you are citing NIOD for

23     authority where you're actually referring to some press article, some

24     press summary, and what kind of a work product that is.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that I received NIOD - I

Page 30071

 1     didn't have to but I did - and our conversation lasted for ten years.

 2     And this summary after ten years of doing research on all the sides,

 3     Muslim, Croat, and Serb, was instrumental in using that and in stating

 4     what I did.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we can --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not really --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- continue now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- an answer to the question.

 9             But please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Going back to your statement D862, paragraph 17, you say that,

12     and you're talking about events in 1992 and later, completely ignored

13     were the extraordinary efforts on the part of the Portuguese Minister of

14     Foreign Affairs, Jose Cutileiro, who brokered an agreement among all

15     three sides, regarding the basis for organising the state into cantons

16     which was signed by Alija Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and Mate Boban.

17             Sir, I want to take to the 11th Session of the RS Assembly.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Which is at P4580.

19        Q.   This occurred on 18 March 1992.  And it's President Karadzic

20     speaking of the Cutileiro document.  And I quote:

21             "The document has been accepted as a basis as a" --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, e-court page 6, English page 7.  If we

23     want to get it up.  English e-court, 6; B/C/S, 7.

24        Q.   And I'll quote.

25             "The document has been accepted as a basis as a foundation for

Page 30072

 1     further negotiations.  The document has not been signed.  We would never

 2     sign anything that we did not agree upon."

 3             He goes on.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  E-court page 43 in English, page 62 in the B/C/S,

 5     but it's short, and I will read it accurately.

 6        Q.   Karadzic:

 7             "I will have to provide at least a digested response to what has

 8     been said so far.  What we have here is a process and the mistake that

 9     Dobrivoje Vidic is making has to do with the fact that an unfinished

10     process should not be assessed as if it were a finished one.  We have

11     entered into this process with our strategic goals and we are

12     accomplishing them stage by stage.

13             "We would never have signed this paper as a document.  Never,

14     never, never!"

15             You would agree with me that Radovan Karadzic knows better than

16     you, as expressed in the assembly sessions, whether or not the RS signed

17     the Cutileiro document?

18        A.   Based on the information that I had, the document was initialed

19     in Lisbon about the establishment of Bosnia and Herzegovina on a cantonal

20     basis.  Some agreements were reached and then the final signing

21     agreements were supposed to be reached.  If you're talking about the

22     assembly session in March, at that time I was not in Republika Srpska at

23     all so I was using archival materials in order to formulate the position.

24             A couple of months ago Cutileiro visited Belgrade and he publicly

25     stated that the document was initialed and that a high level of agreement

Page 30073

 1     was reached, and he was sorry that the American administration

 2     interfered.  And this is on Radio Television Serbia.  You can see

 3     Cutileiro's statement, who regretted that certain circles did not accept

 4     the basic points of the Lisbon plan because had that happened, there

 5     would have been no war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, most probably.

 6        Q.   I take it when you were out of the RS you were not in Lisbon at

 7     the Lisbon Conference?

 8        A.   There are documents, archives.  Any researcher who wanted to

 9     study something could have access to different documents in order to get

10     proper data from which he would be able to draw the appropriate

11     conclusions.

12        Q.   Yes, Colonel, you've told us about the data you've been relying

13     on.  My question was whether you were at the Lisbon Conference.

14        A.   Well, perhaps this is a little inadequate, this question.  I

15     wasn't at the Lisbon Conference and I was not at this assembly session in

16     Pale, either.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, whether the question is inadequate or not

18     is not for a witness to comment upon.  You've given --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I apologise.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to something else.

22        Q.   The president said at the 49th Session of the RS Assembly --

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is 65 ter 02410.  It should be on e-court

24     page 116 in English, page 79 in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   And again, what President Karadzic says, and I quote:

Page 30074

 1             "The first position in all Cutileiro's principles, if you

 2     remember, was that Bosnia was a state consisting of this and that but it

 3     always said that Bosnia was a state, and we never accepted that and we

 4     demanded the maximum that we could accept.  Bosnia is a confederation of

 5     states."

 6             You know the reality, don't you, that the RS government was never

 7     going to agree to a state shared with the Muslims and Croats?

 8        A.   You're asking for my position on this?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   Republika Srpska would have accepted and does accept -- or

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and did so until the point in time when the Sarajevo

12     leadership demanded that Republika Srpska be abolished because that was

13     allegedly a genocidal creation.  If the attitude towards Republika Srpska

14     had changed, and judging by the most recently elected government, the

15     position is that Republika Srpska is a legitimate entity and

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P3106.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- and, Mr. McCloskey, what is the position

19     or is not, the primary concern at this moment seems to be the reliability

20     of the statement of the witness.

21             Would you agree with me that where you state that the Cutileiro

22     Plan was signed by Izetbegovic, Karadzic, and Mate Boban, that a more

23     adequate description of the situation would have been that it was

24     initialed and that in the follow-up conversations in parliamentary

25     sessions that there was quite some dispute about how acceptable or not

Page 30075

 1     acceptable that was and -- as expressed by Mr. Karadzic?  Because that's

 2     apparently what Mr. McCloskey puts to you, that this does not adequately

 3     reflect the situation.  Would you, on the basis of what he has just shown

 4     you, would you agree or would you disagree with that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to say that it was only

 6     initialed.  That's what I said.  The agreement was not signed as such.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what your statement says.  Your statement

 8     says that it was signed.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I meant by that.

10     That it was initialed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Your statement also does not refer to any

12     discussions in parliament in which the adherence to or the denial to

13     accept the conditions of the Cutileiro Plan were discussed.  And

14     Mr. McCloskey puts it to you that that then, therefore, inadequately

15     reflects the situation as it existed at the time.  Do you agree that

16     parts are missing, or do you say no, it still is an adequate reflection

17     of the situation at the time?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, you are

19     completely correct.  I was just using parts of it.  And in the beginning

20     I did say that because of the voluminous material the attorneys asked me

21     to cut my statement short, and that's the reason why I did not go into

22     all the elements in more detail.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's not about -- only about details, it is also

24     about whether the selection you made still reflects the main gist of the

25     material that does exist.  But let's leave it to that.

Page 30076

 1             Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I would offer that section of the

 3     49th Assembly, 65 ter 02410, e-court page 116 in the English, 79 in the

 4     B/C/S, into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the whole of the document been uploaded and can

 6     we deal with a selection rather than to --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was hoping that was just one page, but I --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know.  I'm just seeking verification of it

 9     being an excerpt or it being the whole of the ...

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We'll make sure we get an excerpt in --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- that just has that part, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's already reserve a number for it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  02410 receives P7023, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And did uploaded as an excerpt will be admitted.

16     There are no objections.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And Ms. Stewart informs me that should be 2410A

18     as an excerpt.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And these are the relevant pages.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Has it been uploaded already or it's still to

22     be uploaded?  Then the number is reserved for what will be uploaded as

23     02410A.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

Page 30077

 1        Q.   Now I'd like to go back to your ICTY statement, D862.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 21 in the English, page 20 to 21 in the

 3     Serbian.

 4        Q.   Where you note that, in talking about Zepa:

 5             "I was present at the talks General Mladic had with the Muslim

 6     representatives of Zepa and the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion of

 7     UNPROFOR.  The talks were also attended by General Zdravko Tolimir, the

 8     VRS Main Staff assistant commander for intelligence and security.  Upon

 9     request of the Muslim side, it was agreed to organise the departure and

10     transport from Zepa for the entire population and members of the brigade

11     in Zepa.  They were guaranteed transportation towards the federation of

12     BiH and full safety."

13             So in your view, the Zepa population willingly requested

14     transport out of Zepa on their own free will?

15        A.   I didn't understand.  I didn't understand.

16        Q.   Is it your position from that paragraph that the Muslim

17     population of Zepa requested under their own free will to be transported

18     out of Zepa?

19        A.   We received that information from the commander of the

20     Ukrainian Battalion who was stationed in Zepa.

21        Q.   You were with General Tolimir, did General Tolimir tell you that

22     he had threatened the Muslim population that if they didn't evacuate

23     military force would be employed?

24        A.   General Tolimir never told me that.  I was in the information

25     service, so he was not duty-bound to inform me about that.

Page 30078

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I intervene here.

 2             Witness, my problem is that you make statements in your statement

 3     as facts, and then when you are asked questions you tell us you were told

 4     this, you got this from another source.  Now you say you were told by

 5     the - what is it? - the Ukrainian Battalion about what happened, that

 6     these people voluntarily left.  But you are not saying that in your

 7     statement that you were told this by that battalion.  You are just

 8     telling us this as a fact.  This is the same -- this is the fourth time

 9     now we get an incident where you state things and then when you are asked

10     you say:  No, no, no I didn't read that, I got it from another source.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I attended the

12     conversation between General Mladic and the Bosnia-Herzegovina UNPROFOR

13     commander.  At that time it was noted - there was a representative of the

14     Ukrainian Battalion there, too - and he said that the Muslim side --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- of the Ukrainian --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not answering my question.  My question

18     is:  Why do you tell us things as facts which you actually do not know?

19     Which -- and you don't tell us that you were told this.  You are talking

20     in your statement as if you are talking as a first-hand person with

21     first-hand knowledge, but when you are asked you tell us:  No, no, no, I

22     was told this by somebody or I read it in IPF, not in NIOD.  This has

23     been constant in your evidence this morning.

24             Now, I mean ...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I attended

Page 30079

 1     the meeting when the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion in charge of

 2     Zepa presented the position to General Smith and General Mladic.  I was

 3     there and I heard it myself.  This is not second-hand or third-hand

 4     information.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  It is second-hand information to you, and

 6     that's exactly my question:  Why in your statement don't you say:  The

 7     Ukrainian Battalion told us this at the meeting?  You're not -- there is

 8     no mention of the battalion in this paragraph.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  That's the point I'm making to you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Let me show you P01471.  This is a report on the 13th of July

14     from General Tolimir to the Main Staff, sector for intelligence and

15     security, and General Krstic personally, and others.  Reporting on his

16     contact with Hamdija Torlak and Mujo Omanovic who were the civilian

17     representatives.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we go to page 2 in the English.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, do we have the right number?  Because the

20     document on the screen is not what's being described.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think now we have a document which comes closer to

22     the description.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I think we've got the right one up.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, the translation seems to be an

25     excerpt of the original?  Because it starts with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and left

Page 30080

 1     out the heading.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The part I want to show to him is the part right

 3     after the numbers.  If we --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we would like to know what we are looking

 5     at, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So if in one way or another you could --

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could blow the Serbian up, it's the

 9     complete document, I think.  But it's just disappeared.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And you can see it in page 1 of the English if

12     you want them to match.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There we have it.  Now we know what we are

14     looking at.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to page 2 in the English, but

16     for the Serbian, blow up the part just below number 5.

17        Q.   And as General Tolimir is talking about his contact with these

18     Muslim representatives, he tells his superiors:

19             "We rejected their first request and we made a condition that all

20     necessary consultations had to be completed by 1500 hours and that the

21     evacuation had to start at that time.  We have conditioned this with an

22     alternative solution - military force."

23             So, sir, this is a real document, a serious report.  And when

24     civilian representatives are given the option either evacuate or face

25     military force, the civilians really don't have any free will after that,

Page 30081

 1     do they?

 2        A.   I must say that I don't know anything about this document.  I'm

 3     seeing it for the first time.  General Tolimir was not obliged to inform

 4     me about it.  I was summoned by General Mladic simply to come to Zepa

 5     with a team of journalists.  I arrived there and spent two or three days

 6     there while the evacuation of the people from Zepa was being prepared.

 7        Q.   All right.  So if this is an accurate report and the Muslims were

 8     facing this illegal threat or this threat, I won't say whether it's

 9     illegal or not, I take it you would like to withdraw paragraph 97 where

10     you conclude that the Muslims left or -- where the Muslims were -- agreed

11     to leave voluntarily or words to that effect?  You would like to change

12     that or delete it, I take it?

13        A.   My information, starting from the initial information, that that

14     was what they opted for, I don't see -- I mean, the circumstances might

15     have been different but the information that I had at that time, and even

16     later, indicated that the Bosniaks requested to leave Zepa through the

17     UNPROFOR command.  But it's up to the Court to --

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   -- take that position.

20        Q.   You, yourself, did you get personally involved in communicating,

21     helping the VRS to communicate to the civilians and other people in Zepa?

22        A.   I personally, with my journalists and even other journalists who

23     were not part of the press centre, went down to Zepa.  I was in Zepa

24     practically that whole day during the preparations for the evacuation.  I

25     must say that I was wearing a uniform at the time, that I was in touch

Page 30082

 1     with many people who were there.  And at any point in time did I feel

 2     anything of ill will from anyone of the people there among the

 3     population?  It was quite the opposite.  I was in the first buses to

 4     reach Boksanica, General Mladic was there, a CNN team was already there,

 5     and then General Mladic came into one of the buses, he shook hands and

 6     greeted everybody.  There is footage of that.  And General Mladic told

 7     everyone in each of those buses that they should not be afraid of

 8     anything, that they would all be transported to the territory of the

 9     federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and this is what was done.

10        Q.   And what did General Mladic mean when he said on videotape:

11             "I see that there are able-bodied men among you.  I give you your

12     life as a gift"?

13        A.   I must say that I don't know what General Mladic meant.  But the

14     previous promise was that all those who laid down their arms could leave

15     freely, so I wouldn't comment on that part of the statement because I

16     really don't know what General Mladic meant when he said that.

17        Q.   Did you know that Muslims, who you say were not afraid, had

18     received information the Muslims from Zepa, that there had been mass

19     killings in Srebrenica?  You should -- certainly you would have heard

20     about that by then, and did you know that the Muslim knew that?

21        A.   Sir, even though I was chief of the information services of the

22     army, up until that moment - which is 15 days later - practically did not

23     know about the crimes that had occurred in Srebrenica.  So if I was not

24     aware of that, I don't know whether and through which channels the

25     Bosniaks in Zepa could have been informed about it.  All I'm saying to

Page 30083

 1     you is that I spent the entire day in Zepa, it was very cordial.  I even

 2     had photographs taken with different people.  Nothing unpleasant happened

 3     to me.  Quite the opposite.  I felt as if I were among normal people with

 4     whom you can establish communication.

 5        Q.   Did you actually arrange with a security officer in Zepa that

 6     loudspeakers be used to give information to the Muslim population of

 7     Zepa?

 8        A.   There was that, yes.  So that they do not put up resistance and

 9     for them to assemble in specific areas where they would be received by

10     the Army of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Yes, with messages like "resistance is futile"?  You took part in

12     that, personally?

13        A.   I mean, it is correct.  I didn't take part in that personally,

14     others did.  But I was present when such messages were broadcast.  And I

15     think that this was very positive, because we did not have any problems

16     in Zepa with the assembly of people, the departure, or any type of

17     provocations during that entire procedure in Zepa.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we see P3472.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  When we're waiting for it, Witness, you said "15

20     days later."  Fifteen days later to what?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the people had been boarded

22     in Srebrenica.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you -- is it your evidence that 15 days after

24     the departure of many inhabitants of Srebrenica that had boarded buses,

25     that there was no knowledge whatsoever about large numbers of Srebrenica

Page 30084

 1     inhabitants or -- had lost their lives?  Fifteen days later you would say

 2     nothing was known about that to you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once people boarded

 4     the buses in Srebrenica, I went to my headquarters in Han Pijesak.  I

 5     understand your question.  I really, before Zepa, did not know what had

 6     happened in Srebrenica.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You were not aware 15 days after the events that a

 8     large number of, especially men, had lost their lives when --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only knew of combat operations

10     that were ongoing.  And then for several nights, with some ten or 15 men

11     I provided security for our own headquarters from the --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I was specifically avoiding any reference

13     to how they lost their lives.  Were you aware 15 days after the

14     Srebrenica -- where the -- the population of Srebrenica being escorted

15     out or leaving in any other ways, that a large number of men, I'm

16     thinking in terms of thousands, had lost their lives?  You were not aware

17     of that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is it your position that this was

20     generally unknown to the -- even though rumours in the media, it was just

21     unknown to everyone and therefore the population of Zepa could not have

22     known about it?  Is that your position?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is not my position.  I am

24     not saying that they were not informed by some other sources, but I don't

25     know that.

Page 30085

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you -- and I'll just read to you what you said

 2     a minute ago.  One second, please.

 3             If the parties could assist me where the witness explained.  I

 4     have some difficulties in finding where he --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Temporary transcript page 50, lines 6 through 12 --

 6     6 through 14, Your Honours, is the answer of the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said that you were not aware of that,

 8     apparently referring to what had happened in Srebrenica:

 9             "I don't know whether and through which channels the Bosniaks in

10     Zepa could have been informed about that."

11             Whereas you're now telling us that there may have been other

12     sources that allowed them to get acquainted with information about

13     persons being killed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the

15     information that we received at the meeting with Rupert Smith, some

16     1.000 Bosniaks who had been in Srebrenica crossed the terrain across Zepa

17     and went in the direction of Gorazde.  I suppose that those could have

18     been the people who informed the people in Zepa about the situation in

19     Srebrenica or at least some elements thereof.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. --

21             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, if I may point out, temporary

22     transcript page 52, lines 7 through 9, the witness actually said the

23     exact same thing, that he does not know.  And in the first instance it

24     was he does not know whether they were informed.  So there is no

25     contradiction as Your Honours had indicated with your question.  The

Page 30086

 1     witness has testified twice identically.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether you do not know and whether you do not

 3     know how someone could possibly have received -- could have received that

 4     information is not exactly the same.  But let's leave it to that.

 5             We'll take a break first, and we would like to see you back in

 6     20 minutes, Witness.

 7             Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  If we could -- the excerpt from

 9     65 ter 02410 has now been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter 02410A.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And we had reserved a number for that.

11             Madam Registrar?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P07023?  I give Ms. Stewart credit for that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             You may follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past midday.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

20     into the courtroom, we might deal briefly with translation replacements.

21             In relation to P6966, is there a new translation uploaded that

22     should replace the old one, Mr. Tieger?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, it has been uploaded, Mr. President, under

24     doc ID 0671-2054-A-ET.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the newly uploaded translation of which the

Page 30087

 1     doc ID was just mentioned by Mr. Tieger may replace the existing English

 2     translation in e-court.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And Madam Registrar is instructed to that

 5     replacement.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'm just -- a simple document before you.  I just wanted to

 9     confirm with you that this is accurate.  It shows that you were in some

10     way working with Captain Guduras, a security officer from the 1st Krajina

11     Corps in -- in the use of those loudspeakers for Zepa.  Does this reflect

12     your memory of the situation?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back to your -- the NIOD -- interview that you

15     had with NIOD.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 31807.  Page 10 in the English.

17        Q.   And it's a very, very short note or part of their report that

18     I'll read to you.  Something they obviously are reporting that you told

19     them.

20             "Mladic was very interested in the opinion of the West.  Every

21     morning Milutinovic's organisation compiled an analysis of reports in

22     foreign newspapers, and Mladic read them."

23             So first of all, is the first sentence correct, that Mladic was

24     interested in the opinion of the West during these war years?

25        A.   Every commander needs to be informed.  Therefore, he has to be

Page 30088

 1     aware of the public opinion and the position of the public towards

 2     certain issues.  I agree that this is very correct.  I had some dozen

 3     women who monitored the media.  During that time, most of the time we did

 4     not have electricity and we could not follow the media.  However, we made

 5     sure that the media summaries from Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia, as well

 6     as the foreign media, especially BBC, was available to us.  We then

 7     analysed those reports and submitted a summary of such media reports to

 8     the Main Staff.  So this is true.

 9             I suppose that General Mladic received such information on top of

10     other things, and he was thus abreast of the positions of the West

11     vis-ā-vis certain developments in the territory of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina.

13        Q.   All right.  And you knew a journalist named Robert Block or you

14     knew of a journalist named Robert Block?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 19242.

18        Q.   Now, this is this paper called "The Independent," which I -- this

19     is the same paper you cited in your report, is it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you were just answering questions of the President regarding

22     the issue of sources of information, what people may have known, when

23     they knew it.  So let's take a look at this article.

24             We see that as early on as July 14th that information in this

25     article is being disseminated.  I won't go through the details of it, but

Page 30089

 1     it talks about the deportation of thousands of terrified Muslims being

 2     deported from Srebrenica.  It also says in paragraph 5 that:

 3             "Men of fighting age have been taken away by the Bosnian Serbs

 4     for what they said was 'screening.'"

 5             So you were in the Hotel Fontana on the 12th of July at the

 6     morning meeting that has been filmed, were you not, where there were

 7     Muslim representatives there, it was a morning meeting, you had --

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was at your left and Radislav Jankovic was on

 9     your right.  Do you remember that?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I object to the question.  It's a

11     narrative mixing and matching now a document and then it's a -- it's

12     pointing attention to a document and then going to another topic.  If

13     there is a question about the document, the question should be stated.

14     We should not have a -- the Prosecutor testifying and giving us arguments

15     about something, especially arguments that contradict his own witnesses

16     about what happened in Srebrenica.  We had General Cornelius Nicolai who

17     said that the UN for the people to be removed from Srebrenica because of

18     the hygenic conditions in the area.  And now Mr. McCloskey is citing to a

19     newspaper article, which apparently he wants in evidence, he's not asking

20     the witness questions about the article.  He's reading the article and

21     then he's going on to different topic.  It's highly improper.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I was still waiting for his question.  I

23     considered this to be a kind of a refreshment of the witness's memory as

24     to his presence during that meeting and that we would then hear questions

25     about what he introduced earlier.  And I think the witness in his

Page 30090

 1     statement stated that he attended the meeting, although, Mr. McCloskey,

 2     who he was sitting to next, et cetera, may be details which the witness

 3     would not have needed to remember that he was at the morning meeting at

 4     Hotel Fontana.

 5             Were you there, Witness?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  And now I take it that you move to

 8     questions in relation to the -- to what you introduced earlier,

 9     Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Precisely.  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   So this Court has heard evidence that at that morning meeting

12     Mladic announced that men would be screened to look for war criminals.

13     Is that correct?  Did Mladic say something along those lines at this

14     meeting?

15        A.   Mladic said something along these lines:  All the men for whom

16     there is a suspicion that they had committed crimes over the Serbian

17     people would be kept.  As far as I know, a number of those were kept and

18     then five days later they were handed over to the Red Cross.  That's what

19     I heard.

20        Q.   And so this report that comes out two days later that makes a

21     reference to screening, that's similar to what you had heard Mladic

22     actually say at the meeting?  People screened for war crimes.

23        A.   Yes.  But one thing gets forgotten:  In Eastern Bosnia, i.e.,

24     Podrinje, about 3200 Serbian civilians had died from 1992 onwards at the

25     hands of Naser Oric and his criminal organisation.  The Serbian

Page 30091

 1     authorities already had lists of those who had committed crimes and we

 2     had in mind those people who had been known or who were on our records as

 3     those who had participated in the commission of those crimes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, also in your statement we now and then see

 5     a reference to what is forgotten.  What is forgotten by whom?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.  What do you

 7     mean?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you say:  But things get forgotten.  If you

 9     think that we are forgetting something, is that what you mean?  Or the

10     media?  Or --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not mean you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But if the press had forgotten something then -- the

13     media had forgotten something, that's none of our concern.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The media ignored that area.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You say that as well.  Now, that is not of relevance

16     for us unless a specific leaving out of information would turn out to be

17     relevant for our determinations.  But there is no need to, in general --

18     to say in general terms what was forgotten in the media or by the people

19     or by whomever.  So please refrain from such general statements.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   So, Colonel, this article is the kind of thing that you would

23     have wanted your team to be able to collect and provide information to

24     General Mladic in the Main Staff?

25        A.   Probably I would have informed him about that.  But let me

Page 30092

 1     repeat:  We were completely isolated there.  There was no electricity.

 2     We had generators and we could listen to the BBC, we could read

 3     Washington Post there and some other media but not many.  In other words,

 4     we did not have access to all the media.  I don't know what you had in

 5     mind.  Robert Block was in Bosnia and Herzegovina on several occasions.

 6     We know that he authored a text to refute the allegation that Serbs raped

 7     a lot of non-Serb women.  I know that on the 28th of June, 1995, during

 8     the liberation of the anniversary [as interpreted] of the Serbian army, I

 9     asked General Mladic to give an interview, a rather long interview to

10     Block.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're moving pretty far away from what the

12     question was.

13             Mr. McCloskey, could you please.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yup.

15        Q.   So I take it from that you trusted Robert Block enough to have

16     Mladic give him an interview, but your team wasn't with you in Potocari.

17     They were back in Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka, were they not?  Were they --

18             MR. IVETIC:  Object.  It's a compound question.  Again, he's

19     mixing two questions together.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please split it up, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Your team wasn't with you?  Weren't members of your team still

23     back at Han Pijesak or Crna Rijeka?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And they would have access to the wire services, to newspapers

Page 30093

 1     like "The Independent"?

 2        A.   BBC, Deutsche Welle, or the Voice of America.  That's all we had

 3     access to.  We did not receive any printed media.  No printed media

 4     reached us.  Every now and then we received articles or clippings from

 5     various newspapers by fax, but those communication lines were very bad

 6     and sometimes you had to wait for over a half an hour for just one page

 7     to be transmitted by fax.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this exhibit into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19242 receives Exhibit P7024,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to another Robert Block article,

14     65 ter 12892.

15        Q.   This article -- we can see it's dated up near the top that it's

16     dated July 17th.  He's reporting out of --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We have -- we have two B/C/S documents, apparently

18     not the same, on our screen.  Could we have -- yes.  There we are, I

19     think.  No.  Well, I'm quite certain it's -- it's both "Independent" but

20     could we --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's the correct English version.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I wonder whether the B/C/S is the

23     translation of this document.

24             MR. IVETIC:  The B/C/S has the date 14 July.  This document has

25     the date 23 July.

Page 30094

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we have the B/C/S version next to the

 2     English one.  There we are.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   And this shows that he is reporting out of Belgrade.  So you

 6     had -- you're especially -- your headquarters in Crna Rijeka or

 7     Han Pijesak had access to communications from Belgrade; correct?

 8        A.   There was just one line, which was often down.

 9        Q.   Well, clearly you received information from official sources in

10     Belgrade in your work for -- in public information?

11        A.   I must say that we did not have anybody in Belgrade.  We were

12     part of the Main Staff of the VRS.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have a single associate

15     in Belgrade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was not whether or not you had

17     someone in Belgrade but whether you received information from official

18     sources in Belgrade.  You don't need to have someone in Belgrade to

19     receive that information.  Did you receive information from official

20     sources from Belgrade?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to Tanjug?  Is

22     that who you're referring to?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm referring to nothing.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have communication with

25     anybody else.

Page 30095

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   But you did have communication with Tanjug?

 4        A.   Their correspondents came to see me in Han Pijesak.  I must admit

 5     that during the war I received about 4700 foreign journalists and I had

 6     briefings with all of them, and that's how our positions were

 7     communicated.  We issued communiques or we organised press conferences,

 8     and that's how we conveyed our message to the general public or received

 9     messages from the general public in that way.

10        Q.   All right.  I won't go over all of this, but please take a look

11     at it.  It's describing a video that apparently Robert Block had seen.

12     And he talks about seeing, in the third paragraph, the horror of

13     Srebrenica, and he had the technician stop the film, and I quote:

14             "When the technician stopped the film, there it was, in

15     freeze-frame, the horror of Srebrenica, in piles two feet high.  The

16     bundles were clearly not empty clothes.  They were heads, arms, and legs.

17     The fit body of a young man in the foreground filled out a white T

18     -shirt.  The bodies up against the wall looked to be three deep in

19     places.  It was impossible to make out the exact number, but 25 would be

20     a reasonable guess."

21             He goes on to talk about stains and bullet holes.  And then he

22     mentions:

23             "The implication of the report by the independent Serb television

24     channel Studio B, which was not overtly pro-Bosnian Serb but clearly

25     sympathetic, was that these were Muslim soldiers killed in combat.  The

Page 30096

 1     scene, however, looked more like a place of summary execution than of

 2     combat."

 3             Now, are you aware of this famous footage referred to -- that was

 4     taken by a journalist that you have mentioned in your report named

 5     Zoran Petrovic, known as Pirocanac?

 6        A.   Pirocanac is not from Republika Srpska.  He was not a member of

 7     the Army of Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, please listen to the question.  The

 9     question is whether you are aware of the footage which is referred to in

10     this article by Mr. Block and which, as Mr. McCloskey suggests, is made

11     by Mr. Petrovic, are you aware of that footage?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became aware of that footage only

13     some 10 to 15 days after the event.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

16        Q.   So this article is a description of that footage, is it not?

17     That footage shot by Petrovic.

18        A.   Are you waiting for my answer?

19        Q.   Yes.  It's a simple question.  This -- this article is describing

20     the Petrovic film, is it not?

21        A.   That Petrovic film shows that for only a few seconds.  I didn't

22     see anything special in that footage, save for that one second perhaps

23     that was shown of that.

24        Q.   But you would agree with me that this article detailing what I

25     have read out is a description of that film?  He mentions Studio B.

Page 30097

 1        A.   I agree that that may well be the case.  However, if something is

 2     shown only for one second, I believe that that one second is not

 3     relevant.  It doesn't have to be relevant.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I only learned about that --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we are not discussing at this moment how relevant

 7     that this.  Mr. McCloskey would like to know, and you have answered that

 8     question, that what is described here, that you think it's well possible

 9     that that's a description of the Petrovic video.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   And Mr. Block says that this tape was shot on the Thursday, two

13     days after Srebrenica was overrun.  The Court has heard evidence that

14     that film was shot on the 13th of July, which I'm sure the Defence would

15     agree was two days after the 11th when Srebrenica was taken.  So we can

16     see that the world has been made aware of the events depicted in this

17     film just four days after they occurred on 17 July.  You'd agree with me

18     on that?

19        A.   I did not have information that it had reached that level.  You

20     know there was a war going on and situations like that always result in

21     human loss.  I didn't know how much of that was true, whether it was

22     real.  There were a lot of games being played in Bosnia and one had to

23     wait for the information to be corroborated and verified in order to come

24     out with the facts.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Milutinovic, will you please answer the

Page 30098

 1     question now.  The question is would you agree with Mr. McCloskey that by

 2     the 17th of July the world was informed about what happened in Srebrenica

 3     four days earlier?  Do you agree or don't you agree?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly, yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But -- but --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's enough.

 8             Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Is this the kind of information that General Mladic would have

11     wanted to know about?

12        A.   Of course, yes.  Certainly.  And I believe that we managed to

13     convey part of that information to the Main Staff.  But we did not know

14     whether those were individual or group or mass executions, and what kind

15     of a crime had been committed in that area.  What's the extent of the

16     crime committed in the area.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one short follow-up question.

18             You also did not know who had committed those crimes?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 12892 receives Exhibit Number P7025,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 30099

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Tell us, if you will, any specific efforts you personally made to

 3     obtain a copy of the Petrovic film?

 4        A.   Some ten days later I learned about the existence of that film.

 5     Some journalists from Belgrade informed me about its existence, which

 6     means that I learnt there and then about that existence.  Journalists

 7     informed me that they were ready to hand that film over.

 8        Q.   So what did you do?

 9        A.   I informed the Main Staff, i.e. General Tolimir, that a film of

10     that kind existed.  I told him where it was and how to obtain it, because

11     journalists were willing to hand it over to the Main Staff.

12        Q.   Roughly how long after Srebrenica fell did you inform

13     General Tolimir of this film?

14        A.   Some ten days later, after having received confirmation from the

15     journalists who had arrived from Belgrade that a film of that kind

16     existed.

17        Q.   Okay.  So going back to our chronology of -- Srebrenica fell on

18     the 11th of July, roughly ten days would be the 21st of July.  Tolimir

19     and you and General Mladic were together in Zepa.  And the bus that

20     Mladic got on as the Zepa folks were leaving was the 25th of July.  So by

21     the time General Mladic got on the bus and made his comments, he would

22     have been aware of the existence of the Petrovic film.

23        A.   He may have known because I informed General Tolimir that there

24     was a film, that it was in Belgrade, and that journalists were willing to

25     hand it over.  I don't have any subsequent information as to whether that

Page 30100

 1     was done or not, and if it was, who was it who had taken the film over.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just ask you a question.

 3             As chief of the information centre, did you not inform

 4     General Mladic in -- as soon as you became aware of the existence of this

 5     film that there was such a film in existence?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that I did not serve as

 7     directly subordinated to General Mladic but to Milan Gvero, the assistant

 8     commander for information, morale guidance, and legal affairs.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I told him of the existence of

11     the film.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you there.  You've testified earlier

13     today that you and your assistants compiled information in the press

14     centre which you passed on to Mr. Mladic.  I'm just asking you whether

15     you did not tell Mr. Mladic immediately you heard of the existence of the

16     film that such a film did exist.  Yes or no?  You told Tolimir.  Did you

17     tell Mr. Mladic?  That's all I'm asking.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drafted reports to the

19     Main Staff, you know.  Not to General Mladic personally.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If I can stop you there.  I see you don't

21     want to answer my question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then my information was

23     distributed in the Main Staff.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's leave it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 30101

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   You knew, didn't you, that General Mladic left the Bratunac area

 3     where you had been with him on the 13th and travelled right by -- right

 4     along that road where those bodies were piled up, the same day that they

 5     were -- it was filmed.  You must have known that?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Misstates the evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you first of all split up the

 8     matter.  Whether it misstates the evidence, I think that in a leading

 9     question it's not necessarily what is already the evidence.  But if there

10     is any clear contradiction, Mr. McCloskey, it would be better to avoid

11     that.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, the Prosecution has indicated

14     and asked the witness to agree, and I think even asked the Defence to

15     agree, that this is the Petrovic video which, my understanding is, shows

16     Kravica which is not --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  -- a road.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you're now aware of what apparently

20     is on the mind of Mr. Ivetic.  Could you please take matters step by

21     step.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And then just to complete, Your Honours.  The

23     videotape of --

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to -- he's now arguing and he's trying

25     to communicate something to the witness.

Page 30102

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Without the witness I'll repeat the same things.

 3     This is an objection to the manner of the question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if there is anything that could

 5     possibly --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic should remain silent.  He knows what the

 8     consequences would be.

 9             If there is anything that could possibly be understood as a hint

10     to the witness, you should ask the witness to take his earphones off

11     first.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Then I'll ask the witness to take his earphones off,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please take your earphones off, Witness.

15             Mr. Mladic is supposed to sit down and he can consult with

16     Mr. Stojanovic at a nonaudible - nonaudible - volume.

17             Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  I will simplify my objection in the most simple

19     manner possible:  Is it the Prosecution's position and what evidence they

20     are citing in this question that General Mladic was present at Kravica on

21     the afternoon when the footage was shot?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is -- you are seeking the position of the

23     Prosecution.

24             Mr. McCloskey, you are suggesting to the witness that Mr. Mladic

25     traveled a certain trajectory on a certain day.  Is that --

Page 30103

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, my --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Because if that's the case, then it's running afoul

 3     of the joint submission we made with the Prosecution that they stipulated

 4     to as to the whereabouts of General Mladic.  So that's why I'm asking.

 5     Because if we don't have an agreement, I'm going to ask for more evidence

 6     to be brought.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Ivetic, could you please, and forgive me

 8     for not having the stipulation exactly on my mind in this moment, in

 9     violation of what exact stipulation you think Mr. McCloskey is asking a

10     leading question from the witness?

11             Could you please answer my question, Mr. Ivetic.  And I would

12     prefer you listen to me rather than to talk to Mr. Stojanovic when I'm

13     addressing you.  But please, what exactly -- what stipulation exactly you

14     say Mr. McCloskey is acting contrary to.

15             MR. IVETIC:  We have, the Prosecution and the Defence, about the

16     whereabouts of General Mladic during the time-period of July the 13th

17     through July the 16th have presented to the Chamber agreement as to

18     facts.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  At no point in time has it been suggested that

21     General Mladic was in Kravica during the time-period that the Petrovic

22     video was filmed and that the alleged scenes depicted in that video would

23     have been -- would have been filmed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the stipulation --

25             MR. IVETIC:  The question --

Page 30104

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the stipulation exclude, leaves no room for the

 2     possibility that Mr. Mladic would have been on the date at which the

 3     footage was shot in Kravica?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I submit, since the Prosecution has

 5     rested their case, that, yes, that since they have not presented evidence

 6     of that during their case in chief they are precluded from that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Ivetic, I'm also inviting you to listen to

 8     my question.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You say that the Prosecution is acting against the

11     stipulation, and I asked you whether the stipulation is such that it

12     excludes what Mr. McCloskey is suggesting to the witness.  That's my

13     question.  Not whether they have presented evidence or not on matters.

14     And could we just have the stipulation.  I have the text here now.

15             Yes.  I have it before me.  Does this stipulation exclude the

16     presence of Mr. Mladic.

17             And could we have another copy?

18             MR. IVETIC:  My recollection is the only part that was in dispute

19     was when General Mladic returned to --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But that --

21             MR. IVETIC:  -- the theatre of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether it

22     would have been on the 16th, the 17th, and what time.  That was what was

23     the communications between the parties at the time that the stipulation

24     was being prepared.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

Page 30105

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And I again stress -- yes, go ahead.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the text of the

 3     stipulation and I'm asking myself, because that's the objection, whether

 4     Mr. McCloskey, by putting this question, is not honouring what he

 5     stipulated to.  And I suggest that you have a close look at it.  If you

 6     need a copy, we'll provide you with a copy, rather than to work on the

 7     basis of what you seem to remember.

 8             It may well be all true or not, but I just -- I would like to

 9     have it --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, my objection was not based on the

11     stipulation.  My explanation was based on the stipulation.  My objection

12     was that it misstates the evidence.  There has been no evidence led

13     during the Prosecution's case in chief --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

15             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

17             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is it your position that in a leading question

19     you can only put something to the witness which -- for which evidence has

20     been received, or isn't it one of the specific features of a leading

21     question that you can suggest to a witness a fact which has not yet been

22     established?  I thought always that's my understanding of what a leading

23     question is, which is permitted in cross-examination.

24             MR. IVETIC:  When it relates to the alleged presence of the

25     accused at a site where a crime is alleged to have happened, I believe

Page 30106

 1     the Prosecution has an obligation to lead that evidence in their case in

 2     chief and not to try to present questions as if it's been proven when

 3     it's not been proven.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I might be able to help here.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You're switching -- you're switching --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  That's been my objection since the very first point.

 7     I stated it very succinctly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now this video was taken on the 13th of July

 9     is your suggestion, Mr. McCloskey?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- doubt very much that's even contested.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.  That's not.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- think I can clear this up, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's look at the agreed facts.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No, he's --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic -- Mr. McCloskey, give me one second.

21     Give me one second.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just trying to help you, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The agreed facts are split up in dates,

24     13 July, 14 July, 15 July, 16th of July.  The one and only fact agreed

25     upon for the 13th of July is:  On the evening of 13 July,

Page 30107

 1     General Ratko Mladic was at the Main Staff's command post in Crna Rijeka.

 2     Nothing in addition to that.  So therefore whether it misstates the

 3     evidence is a different matter.  I think that -- but it certainly does

 4     not, as was your argument earlier, violate in this respect what was

 5     agreed which is only where Mr. Mladic was at the evening of the 13th of

 6     July, that is, in Crna Rijeka.

 7             Let's leave it to that.

 8             Mr. McCloskey --

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I could briefly respond, he's asked for our

10     position.  He's made some serious allegations.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think I can help clear this up.

13             He's misunderstood what I have said.  I did not say that

14     General Mladic was at the Kravica warehouse when the Petrovic film was

15     being filmed.  I said, which is clear in the question, that

16     General Mladic went along the same road on the same day that Petrovic

17     went.  And I will make as a factual -- he asked for our position.  Our

18     position is that in the afternoon General Mladic went by the Kravica

19     warehouse, stopped at the Sandici meadow, and gave a speech.  This is --

20     he's agreeing with me.  And after he left the Sandici meadow, within a

21     period of time, it's not exactly clear, one to two to three hours,

22     perhaps, men from the Sandici meadow were taken to the Kravica warehouse

23     and butchered.

24             Mladic went on after the Sandici meadow to Konjevic Polje, talked

25     to people, then he went on to Nova Kasaba, and that's the facts that I'm

Page 30108

 1     speaking of.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I think that it's clear to

 3     Mr. Ivetic.

 4             What I would suggest to you is that where you suggested

 5     Mr. Ivetic misunderstood your question, that we ask the witness to put

 6     his earphones on again, and that you in short, brief questions revisit

 7     the matter you intended to visit ten minutes ago.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Sir, did you know that General Mladic had driven by the area

11     where these bodies were filmed the same day they were filmed?

12        A.   After boarding the buses and the recording, I went --

13        Q.   I'd ask you to answer my question.  We're getting --

14        A.   -- to Han Pijesak and I don't know.

15        Q.   It's getting late.  Please answer the question.

16        A.   I don't know where Mladic went.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this in -- excuse me, it's already in

19     evidence.

20        Q.   Tell us what personally you did to try to obtain the Petrovic

21     video?  Did you -- well, strike that.  Did you ever get the Petrovic

22     video?

23        A.   I informed the relevant people in the Main Staff that there

24     was --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

Page 30109

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- footage.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm stopping you there.  The simple

 3     question is whether you ever obtained a copy of that video.  Did you or

 4     did you not?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I have a follow-up question.

 7             You talked earlier of just one second of that video being shown.

 8     How do you know it was just one second?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a question, did I receive

10     it?  I saw it but I did not receive a copy and I did not have it in the

11     archive.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Did the VRS receive a copy of this video?

14        A.   The Main Staff did receive a copy, yes.

15        Q.   So you're distinguishing between yourself and the Main Staff.

16     Aren't you a member of the Main Staff, Colonel?

17        A.   I did not have a copy of the film.  But --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   What did you do --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the more precise the questions are,

22     the less you run into problems as you ran in a minute ago.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   What involvement did you have in getting the Main Staff a copy of

Page 30110

 1     this video?

 2        A.   I just informed the authorised security services that there was

 3     footage.  I gave the names of people in Belgrade who had the footage, and

 4     then I did not have anything more to do with this matter.  It was not in

 5     my jurisdiction anymore.

 6        Q.   Who from the security service are you talking about?

 7        A.   General Tolimir.

 8        Q.   And who brought the tape back?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's look at P1482.

11        Q.   No need, I don't think, to go through all of this.  But this is a

12     document dated 22 June 1996 in your name.  Is that your signature?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And these are your efforts in communicating to the security

15     branch to get this tape from these folks in Belgrade?

16        A.   Correct.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P1484.

18        Q.   We can see that we now have this, a document, the authorised

19     official of the VRS security body, dated 24 June.  And it's a receipt for

20     temporarily seized objects.  And it's from the person that you had

21     mentioned in your document, and the object was received by a

22     Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.  So you would have known that Beara came

23     back with a tape that was the subject of your communication?

24        A.   But only one year later.

25        Q.   So you agree with me that you knew Beara went to Belgrade and got

Page 30111

 1     this tape and brought it back?

 2        A.   But I'm saying that it was one year later, in 1996.

 3        Q.   Yes.  We agree, as we said, that it was in June 1996.  The

 4     question is simple.  You wrote the document to the security branch to get

 5     the tape, and you know that Beara brought it back.  Is that yes?

 6        A.   I was informed that it was handed over to the Main Staff, but I

 7     don't know then what happened to that footage later.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 19246.

10        Q.   This is another article from Robert Block, this one dated

11     July 21, 1995.  It's entitled: "Mass slaughter in a Bosnian field

12     knee-deep in blood."  I don't want go over the details.  We can see that

13     it basically reports -- Block is reporting that there had been many

14     people killed after Srebrenica.  Was this the kind of information

15     General Mladic would have wanted to be aware of that was out in the

16     public?

17        A.   This is the Western public.  It was published on the

18     21st of July.  I could have received it only 15 days later.

19        Q.   Can you answer my question?  Would this have been the kind of

20     information General Mladic would have wanted to know?

21        A.   He did receive some texts from our service.  I don't know whether

22     this particular text was passed on to him.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer it into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19246 receives Exhibit Number P7026,

Page 30112

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One last article from Robert Block, 65 ter 19244.

 4        Q.   This one's dated July 25th, 1995, entitled: "'River killings'

 5     shed light on scale of horror after the fall of Srebrenica."  And in this

 6     article he reports that people on the Serbian side of the Drina see

 7     killings and they go over and they take a man that is named in this

 8     article, Resid Halilovic, over to Loznica.  Is Loznica across the river,

 9     more or less, from a place called Kozluk?  Kozluk's in Bosnia, Loznica's

10     in Serbia?

11        A.   Precisely, yes.

12        Q.   Have you heard of this account but not under the name

13     Resid Halilovic, under the name of Resid Sinanovic, who was a former

14     police officer in the Srebrenica police department before the war?

15        A.   No, I never heard that story.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19244 receives Exhibit Number P2 --

19     7027, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7027 is admitted.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could have 65 ter 31714, but it should

22     not be broadcast.

23        Q.   It's a -- this is an intercept conversation, sir, that is dated

24     on the 13th of July, the -- from the CSB of Tuzla.  And it basically says

25     on the 13th of July, and I'll quote:

Page 30113

 1             "The same day at 2335 hours we recorded a conversation between

 2     journalist Goran Malnaga and Vesna Stupar."

 3             Who is Goran Malnaga?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We still don't have the document on the screen.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see an image of the

 6     document here.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you verify the number, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  31714.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be broadcast.

10             Mr. McCloskey, the Registrar has some difficulties in getting

11     anything else on the screen under that number.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm fine if we don't see it.  It's pretty short

13     and I'll be very careful.  It's -- I'm sure we'll figure it out because

14     it's -- we've confirmed these, I believe.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for the time being you may proceed.  But

16     please be extremely accurate on what you quote from a document we have

17     not on our screens.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Janet says --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.

20             Yes, please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   So I was reading that first paragraph and I ask you who

23     Goran Malnaga was.

24        A.   A journalist at the press centre.

25        Q.   How about Vesna Stupar?

Page 30114

 1        A.   She covered Bosnia and Herzegovina Radio.  She was an analyst.

 2        Q.   All right.  From the press centre?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And it goes on to say that -- it talks about the conversation

 5     between those two people and the chief of the Main Staff press centre,

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Milovan Milutinovic, who they couldn't hear.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Main Staff press centre.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Main Staff press centre.

 9        Q.   So that's you, obviously?  And --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the -- the CSB folks conclude, they say, as you can see next:

12             "We drew the following conclusion from the conversation:

13             "The Main Staff issued an order that no information related to

14     Srebrenica or Zepa must be made public until further notice."

15             So having in mind what the Muslims say they overheard these two

16     people talking to you about, I would like to go to P02120.

17             MR. IVETIC:  If we could find where the document says that this

18     was discussed.  It says this is the conclusion reached by the individuals

19     who are allegedly listening to this.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  They say it's a conversation between the three

21     people.  They couldn't hear Mr. Milutinovic.  That's all I meant by

22     "discussed."

23        Q.   So basically what you're going to see is an order dated the same

24     day as this intercept from General Mladic that everyone will agree, I

25     think, has to do with preventing information leakage.  And I know this

Page 30115

 1     was a long time ago, Colonel, but do you recall on that period around

 2     13 July receiving an order or reading this order or an order like it from

 3     General Mladic and then talking to Goran and Vesna about it?

 4        A.   I agree with you that it was a long time ago.  I personally don't

 5     remember this document.  And the two people that you referred to, I don't

 6     think that they -- they are just regular members of the press centre.

 7     And in any event, perhaps they could have been talking about this, but I

 8     really don't remember.

 9        Q.   So perhaps they could have been talking with you about this

10     topic.  That would have been normal under the circumstances?

11        A.   It's possible.  But I don't remember it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock.  We should

13     take a break.

14             Could you tell us how much more time you would need after the

15     break?  Because we are close to the two hours you claimed.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll keep it to the two hours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let me just ask Madam Registrar to give us

18     detailed information so that you know how many more minutes you have.

19             Mr. Ivetic, as matters stand now, could you give us an indication

20     as how much time you would need in re-examination?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Ten minutes or under.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ten minutes or under.

23             You have ten minutes left, Mr. McCloskey.  The Chamber may have a

24     few questions as well.

25             Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes.  We would like to see you

Page 30116

 1     back after that.

 2             And we resume at a quarter to 2.00.

 3             Ten minutes remaining, Mr. McCloskey.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

 8     into the courtroom, I would like to briefly deal with the following

 9     matter; that is, the Defence motion to admit the evidence of

10     Witness Milan Tutoric pursuant to 92 ter.

11             On the 19th of November, the Defence filed a motion, a 92 ter

12     motion, for Milan Tutoric.  On the 3rd of December, the Prosecution filed

13     its response objecting to the admission of evidence on the grounds that,

14     inter alia, the written statement, first, contains inadmissible opinion

15     evidence and, two, lacks relevance and fails to meet the minimum

16     threshold of reliability.  The Prosecution further objects to the

17     introduction of an expert opinion from this witness who is presented by

18     the Defence as a witness of fact.  The Chamber would like to hear by

19     Monday, the 12th of January, 2015, an additional submission from the

20     Defence as to whether this witness would be more appropriately presented

21     as a expert witness.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I'd had a number of housekeeping matters that

25     I've refrained from raising because of time considerations.  There is

Page 30117

 1     one, however, that may have some time-sensitive implications.  So if the

 2     Court has any time at the end of the day for one minute to go into

 3     private session to address it, I would appreciate it.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll certainly -- we're getting nervous as well,

 6     Mr. Tieger.

 7             Mr. McCloskey, your last ten minutes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Colonel, I want to take you briefly back to that morning meeting

10     at the Hotel Fontana where you were there with the Muslim representatives

11     and General Mladic made the comment about the screening for war criminals

12     or something to that effect.  And that was being filmed, was it not?

13        A.   General Mladic asked me to come with a journalist and a

14     cameraman, and we recorded that conversation by VHS cameras.  Having

15     provided the necessary information, General Mladic insisted that we

16     should --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple answer is:  Yes, it was filmed.

18             Please, Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P1148, which should be e-court

20     page 66.

21        Q.   This, for simplicity's sake, is a still of a -- of a film clip

22     that we received many years ago of that meeting.  And I'd just want to

23     ask you a question or two about it.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think if we could blow it up.  I don't think we

25     need the -- what's on the left side, and I don't think the

Page 30118

 1     identifications is really an issue.  So I say we don't need the part on

 2     the left.  I don't -- thank you.

 3        Q.   And do you see yourself in this photo?

 4        A.   I do.  In the back of the photo.

 5        Q.   And is that number 3?

 6        A.   Number 3, yes.

 7        Q.   And is this, as you remember it, basically the scene that -- at

 8     the Hotel Fontana about the time that Mladic made these -- these words

 9     about screening for possible war criminals?

10        A.   That photo was taken after General Mladic had his conversation

11     with Karremans, and Mladic had agreed to meet with the Muslim delegation

12     the following day.

13        Q.   But my --

14        A.   Many of these people I saw for the first time, because I'd not

15     had any need to communicate with them ever before.

16        Q.   So Mladic's statements to Karremans about screening the prisoners

17     was filmed?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you were able to sell that film?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's look at 65 ter 20925.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I'm somewhat puzzled by you calling

23     this the morning meeting and the witness saying that they agreed that the

24     next morning, I think, they would meet with -- the following day.  Now, I

25     may be mistaken, but is there any inconsistency there, "the following

Page 30119

 1     day"?

 2             You are talking about the morning.  But was there a morning

 3     meeting with another meeting the following day?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am aware of various meetings.  I'm not aware of

 5     any meeting with this entire group the following day, so that is

 6     something that -- that you have identified as a possible complication.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, would you please keep in mind that you were

 8     talking about a morning meeting and the witness said something about this

 9     picture where the next day they would meet again and whether that would

10     be -- I just leave it to you, but -- you said -- let me see.

11             The witness said, at page 85, that the photo was taken after

12     General Mladic has had this conversation and had agreed to meet with the

13     Muslim delegation the following day, which suggests that it's the day

14     before the meeting with the -- and you said paragraph, page 83, line 25,

15     to take the witness briefly back to that morning meeting at the

16     Hotel Fontana.  If that causes you no concerns, then I stay out.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, we -- the important thing is the morning

18     meeting at the Hotel Fontana with this group where General Mladic made

19     the comment about the screening of war criminals.

20        Q.   This photo represents that meeting; correct?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe before you do so, Mr. McCloskey, you can

22     just check whether the 65 ter number you called is correctly recorded.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] --

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This should not be played.  And it --

Page 30120

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, but the number.  The number on the record.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and it's apparently not.  It should be

 3     20925.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you then resume where we left off.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah.  We could go back to the other -- the still

 6     photo, the -- that was e-court page 66, P1148.

 7        Q.   Colonel, we're just going to go back to try to clear this up.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking at audible volume.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   And the question was:  Was this the morning at the Hotel Fontana

12     where Mladic made the comment to the assembled group around this table

13     about screening the war criminals?

14        A.   As far as I can remember, the photo was taken in the evening

15     after the conversation with Colonel Karremans.

16        Q.   Sir, I can tell you that this is a still of a video that was shot

17     on the 12th of July in the morning when General Mladic was with this

18     entire group.  I can show you another photo.  Maybe it will help you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 1148, e-court P -- page 64.

20        Q.   This should be the people that are sitting on the other side of

21     you.

22        A.   Yes, that's on the following day.  Karremans and a Muslim

23     delegation from Srebrenica, when Mladic presented his positions to him,

24     i.e., that all those who surrendered their weapons could decide whether

25     to go to Serbia, to the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or --

Page 30121

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So the previous day -- could we look at the other

 2     picture again.

 3             I take it that by careful analysis of the video pictures and

 4     the -- such as things on the table, et cetera, that there should be a

 5     possibility to verify whether it's same day or the other -- or another

 6     day.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, there is no -- there will be no dispute

 8     on --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- on this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please proceed.  I don't know how

12     important it is but I noticed that there seemed to be a different

13     understanding of what exactly it was that was depicted here.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   So on that morning of -- the morning that you meet with all these

17     people that we just saw in the two pictures, did Mladic make the

18     statement that morning that war criminals would be screened, something to

19     that effect?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, General Mladic said that to the Muslim

21     delegation.  He told them that everybody could come freely, lay down

22     their weapons, and that then they could go wherever they wanted to go

23     without any consequences.

24        Q.   I am asking you about the comment about screening for war

25     criminals.  Did he make that comment that morning at this meeting that we

Page 30122

 1     see the two pictures of?

 2        A.   I'm not sure whether that happened at this particular meeting or

 3     the meeting with the Muslim delegation.

 4        Q.   Well, sir, maybe I can help you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the other photograph, which is the --

 6     it's another still from the same video.  It's page 64.  It's just the

 7     other side of the table where the Muslims are sitting.

 8        Q.   It's the same video, it's the same hotel, it's the same people.

 9     Is this the delegation that Mladic made the statement about war criminals

10     to?

11        A.   I think so.

12        Q.   And as you've stated, this was filmed and you sold the film.  Who

13     did you sell the film to of this meeting of the Muslim delegation?

14        A.   General Mladic said that the video recordings from Srebrenica

15     should be made public, to show the public that we had nothing to hide,

16     that we had done everything as we should have.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one asked you who made you sell that

18     film, why you sold that film.  The question is to whom did you sell that

19     film.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Repeat?  I think it was Reuters.

21     Do you need an explanation at all?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We just need an answer to the question.

25             Please proceed.

Page 30123

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And one last exhibit --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I think we missed the answer of the witness, though,

 3     because he said some acronym and then he started talking and then we only

 4     heard "Reuters."  There was a lot more there that was missed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Without giving an explanation could you just repeat

 6     your answer, which included a reference to Reuters.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that we sold this to

 8     Reuters and that they brought some 5.000 dollars and that that was paid

 9     into the Main Staff's fund.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's see one last exhibit, 65 ter 20925.

11     This, out of an abundance of caution, should not be broadcast.  It's an

12     intercept.

13        Q.   Now, sir, this is another CSB intercept.  This one's dated

14     12 July and there is actually a summary of two intercepts, one at

15     1435 hours and one at 1520 hours.  And --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, I'm going to interrupt you.  The

17     65 ter number you give is exactly the same as the 65 ter number of the

18     previous document.

19             My apologies.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We had the right one up there, however.

21        Q.   And we see in the first conversation they've got -- they are

22     mentioning some people, Vesna Stupar again, ITN, and some others, and

23     you.  And it sounds like it's talking about the video and selling it.

24     It's the second one I wanted to ask you about.  We see that the intercept

25     people are right down at -- near the bottom, it said:

Page 30124

 1             "He said that it is about five hours of uncut material and that

 2     he offered 15 minutes of it to the agency that Vojo represents for the

 3     prices of 30.000 DM.  In the conversation that went on for a long time,

 4     Milutinovic managed to agree on the sale of the material for 25.000 DM."

 5             Is that correct, did you sell that for about 25.000 DM?

 6        A.   No, because no agency was interested in it at more than 5.000

 7     dollars.  And we spoke to ITN, IFP, and Reuters.

 8        Q.   And you sold edited material, you didn't sell them the whole

 9     five hours?

10        A.   No.  They were interested in 15 minutes.

11        Q.   And you -- just lastly, I can tell you that the investigation in

12     this case has never found a video of the Hotel Fontana meeting that you

13     talk about as the one with the Muslim representatives, where the --

14     Mladic's statement about screening war criminals was present.  Who edited

15     the film that was sold?

16        A.   We had a journalist and we had a cameraman who had recorded that.

17     They edited the thing to show the events in Srebrenica within five

18     minutes, and then the complete material was handed over to the archives

19     of the Main Staff.  I later learned, when Biljana Plavsic brought IFOR to

20     the command of the Main Staff, that that part of the video archives was

21     part of the documentation that SFOR brought with them, as part of some

22     150 kilogrammes of various materials.

23        Q.   Lastly, in any event you'll agree with me that the VRS edited out

24     the part of the video where Mladic talks about screening war criminals?

25        A.   If that was done, it was done unintentionally.  I didn't have any

Page 30125

 1     reason to cut it.

 2        Q.   Well, you later learned that all those people that were separated

 3     in Potocari were summarily executed, didn't you?

 4        A.   This is the first time I hear something like that.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

 8             If we can have Exhibit P1482 in e-court.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

10        Q.   Sir, this is the -- one of the documents that Mr. McCloskey just

11     presented to you.  And in reference to the date, I think when it comes up

12     you'll see it's June 1996.  There we see now it's the date June 22nd,

13     1996, and you kept telling Mr. McCloskey only one year later, one year

14     later.

15             I want to ask you to clear up for us:  Did the Main Staff obtain

16     a copy of the Pirocanac video in 1996 or at the time of the Zepa

17     operation which was June -- or, pardon me, July of 1995?  If you know.

18        A.   There were rumours about that video-clip and its existence.

19     However, we learnt about its existence and whereabouts only in 1996.  As

20     the chief of that service, I reacted immediately and said that we needed

21     to get that video recording as quickly as possible.

22        Q.   Now, sir, we've had evidence at this trial from the Prosecution's

23     own investigator Mr. Blaszczyk, at transcript page 11527 to 11528, that

24     the raw footage in the possession of the Mr. Petrovic-Pirocanac was

25     missing this segment relating to Kravica.  Do you know if the tape that

Page 30126

 1     the Main Staff received in 1996, did it have this couple seconds' footage

 2     from Kravica or was it a copy that did not have that stuff from Kravica?

 3     Again, if you know.

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Fair enough.  Now I would like to focus on your discussions with

 6     NIOD.  You mentioned during cross-examination that you were relying upon

 7     a summary of the NIOD report -- pardon me, the NIOD report I would like

 8     to focus on.  You said you were relying upon a summary of the NIOD

 9     report, and you are quoted as saying IFP which was later AFP and which

10     later became AP.  Could you clarify for us what agency had authored the

11     summary of the NIOD report upon which you were relying when discussing

12     the findings?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, it was IFP.

14        Q.   And whose agency is that?  What country do they operate out of?

15        A.   As far as I know, it's a French agency.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, I would like to focus on the NIOD discussions with

17     yourself.  You told us that the discussions with yourself were in Serbian

18     and that there was an English translator present.  To your knowledge, was

19     there a Dutch translator present or were all the discussions in English

20     and in Serbian?

21        A.   As far as I can remember - and it was a long time ago, 14 years

22     ago - everything was in Dutch or English --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's correction:  In Serbian or

24     English.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 30127

 1        Q.   And in terms of those discussions with you, did you ever have an

 2     opportunity to review any notes or summary of that meeting in any

 3     language subsequent to -- at the time that you had the discussions with

 4     the representatives from NIOD?

 5        A.   The introduction and the conversation with NIOD lasted for three

 6     days, for ten hours all together.  They promised that when everything was

 7     over that they would send me a summary to approve.  After that I never

 8     saw this report until the moment I was proofed for this testimony.

 9        Q.   Colonel, again, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of my

10     team, I thank you for answering my questions.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I was under ten minutes.  I hope that

12     that helps.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It certainly helps.  I'm afraid that I'm

14     disturbing now the order a bit.

15                           Questioned by the Court:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us, your interviews with the

17     NIOD, were they recorded in any way, I mean by audio?  If you remember.

18        A.   As far as I can remember, there was just the hand-held -- it was

19     a long time ago, 14 years ago, and they did record it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It was recorded.

21             Now, I do not know, I'm addressing the parties, that where there

22     seems to be some dispute about whether it accurately reflects what the

23     witness said, it may assist the Chamber if the parties could perhaps

24     agree on receiving audio and verifying what is more plausible, that there

25     was a distortion of what the witness said or whether it reflects what he

Page 30128

 1     said.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I am not aware of an audio.  I would have to defer

 3     to the Prosecution, though, since -- well, we didn't have the entirety of

 4     the -- we didn't have all the languages of the interview until a day or

 5     so ago, so --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I see that.  But you introduced this material

 7     into evidence.

 8             But I take it that the Prosecution will certainly assist in

 9     trying to seek ways of verifying the accuracy of the interview and the

10     summary of it.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, that -- I believe we -- I'll check

12     and see if we have an audio.  This, as you might imagine, is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you have it or whether you can obtain it,

14     but there seems to be dispute about the matter and the Chamber always

15     prefers to have disputes to be resolved rather than to -- remaining

16     hanging above us.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, just so you know, this is very sensitive

18     material for the Dutch Institute.  They rely on confidentiality many

19     times to carry these things out, and we'll look into the possibility of

20     that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the parties would look at it on a

22     confidential basis and agree on whether it reflects or does not reflect

23     what the witness told during his interview.  But I'm just encouraging you

24     to explore ways by giving an opportunity to the Chamber to better assess

25     the probative value of the evidence of this witness against the

Page 30129

 1     background of any possible recording of the interview he gave.  Nothing

 2     more and nothing less at this moment.

 3             Witness, I've a few questions for you.  In paragraph 16 of your

 4     statement, you say that the Vatican pressured the recognition of the

 5     independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Could you tell me exactly what

 6     your sources are for this statement?

 7        A.   In early 1992, in Belgrade but also in the republics, an emissary

 8     of the Pope visited and after the talks he immediately accused the

 9     Serbian side - there are documents, they can be found in the archives in

10     Belgrade and elsewhere - where he, in an argumented manner, tried to

11     accused the Serbs for all the events.  What I would particularly like to

12     note is that Pope Wojtyla, on the 8th of March, 1993, at St. Paul's

13     Square, instead of calling for peace he begged God to punish the Serbs

14     with bombing.  And there are written records of this, written documents.

15     So with this in mind I said that the Vatican throughout the entire war in

16     its way tried to place itself on the side of one side only and protect

17     it --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Just for me to understand, are you

19     saying that on the 8th of March, 1993, the Pope begged God to punish the

20     Serbs with bombing?  Is that -- is there any recording of that?  I

21     would -- Mr. Mladic should refrain from any expressions when the witness

22     is giving his testimony.

23             I -- it could well be that the Pope was at St. Paul's Square.  I

24     take it that that is easy to be verified.  But what he said in March 1993

25     cannot explain the pressure by the Vatican in April 1992.  Could you be a

Page 30130

 1     bit more precise on who visited, who was it, the representative of the

 2     Pope?  You remember who it was?

 3        A.   I can't remember who it was now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  And did he accused the Serbs of something or

 5     did he say you -- the republic of -- one second, please.  Or did he say

 6     that the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina had to be recognised?

 7        A.   He did not mention Bosnia and Herzegovina at all.  He accused the

 8     Serbs for the events in Croatia and for the beginning of the armed

 9     conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's understood what the source is and what

11     the source exactly contained.

12             I have another question for you.  You say that Fikret Alic, and

13     that's paragraph 44 of your statement, was suffering from tuberculosis.

14     What's your source for that?

15        A.   Trnopolje is my birthplace.  I knew most of the people there.

16     And after that footage, the locals there said:  Why did they take him?

17     Because he's suffering from tuberculosis.  So it comes from the place

18     itself.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So where you say in paragraph 44:

20             "Fikret Alic was suffering from tuberculosis."

21             What you intended to say was Fikret Alic was said to suffer from

22     tuberculosis by other persons living in Trnopolje.  Did you ever see any

23     medical record of that?

24        A.   No, I didn't.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

Page 30131

 1             If the parties would have any additional information, of course

 2     the Chamber is always willing to address that.

 3             Finally, I have a question on paragraph 109 where you discuss

 4     the -- what happened on the Markale market in Sarajevo on the

 5     5th of February, 1994, usually referred to as Markale 1 in this

 6     courtroom.  You say the French television quoted a UN report on the

 7     explosion and you said what a certain journalist, Mr. Walker, said about

 8     that; namely, that the UNPROFOR report would have stated that the bomb

 9     was fired from the Muslim positions.  If there is any UNPROFOR report

10     which clearly states that, would you know -- have you seen that report?

11        A.   No, I haven't.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you followed proceedings before this Tribunal

13     dealing with the incident at the Markale market in February 1994?

14        A.   I did follow the proceedings and I talked about that in that

15     paragraph in an appropriate way.  I wish to draw attention to the fact

16     that there are a lot of unknowns in relation to Markale.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I didn't ask you for your opinion on that.

18     The report you are referring to here, is that a report which you could

19     establish not to have been available to this Tribunal?  Because if there

20     is any UNPROFOR report with a certain conclusion on the matter, the

21     Chamber would not want to miss it when evaluating all of the evidence.

22     Therefore, I asked you whether in following the proceedings whether you

23     gained the impression that the report you are talking about here, whether

24     that was not considered by this Tribunal in other cases?

25        A.   Based on the information I had from the press, the UNPROFOR

Page 30132

 1     withdrew that report already on the first day.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not my question.  My question was whether

 3     you think that, even if you withdraw a report, the report may still be

 4     there, whether that report is available and whether it has been available

 5     according to your knowledge.  And of course if your answer is that it is

 6     a report which was not available to this Tribunal, the Chamber would urge

 7     the parties to get hold of it.  Do you have any knowledge about that

 8     report which would allow any conclusions as to whether it has been

 9     available to this Tribunal?

10        A.   I have to say that I don't know if there is such a report or not.

11     I guess there is UN documentation about it, but I don't know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So your only source is that you heard

13     Mr. Walker talking about a report and stating what the content of that

14     report was without any further knowledge about that report and its

15     content.

16        A.   Exactly.  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have one question to ask.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought that when you talked about the Pope you

21     gave the name of the Pope, am I right?

22        A.   Pope John Paul, Pope Wojtyla.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. McCloskey?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

Page 30133

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions by the Bench triggered any

 2     further need for questions, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I believe not.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Milutinovic, I would like to thank you

 5     very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the

 6     questions that were put to you, put to you by the Bench, put to you by

 7     the parties - to start with by the parties - and I wish you a safe return

 8     home again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you for

10     giving me the opportunity to state my positions and views here regarding

11     the events in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We appreciated you stating facts that are to your

13     knowledge.  You may follow the usher.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I am usually hesitant to go over the time so much,

16     but it's the last day before the -- it's the last day before the winter

17     recess.

18             Mr. Tieger, you asked for private session.  And you -- I think

19     you talked about one minute, didn't you?

20             MR. TIEGER:  I think that's right.  I'll do my best.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30134











11  Page 30134 redacted.  Private session.















Page 30135

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             If you would just give me one second.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Although I have quite a few matters still on the

19     agenda, they are not of such urgency that we should deal with them

20     necessarily before the recess, because we are at the point where we'll

21     take a recess of a few weeks.

22             The Chamber wishes everyone in this courtroom all the good wishes

23     for the holidays, and -- whether the holidays are in December or in

24     January, the best wishes are exactly the same also for the coming year.

25     And having said this, we adjourn and will resume Monday, the 19th of

Page 30136

 1     January of 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, 1.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day

 4                           of January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.