Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30137

 1                           Monday, 19 January 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you, for the first time in 2015, call the

 8     case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

10     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             The Chamber was informed that there are two matters to be raised

13     by the Prosecution.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Good morning.  I wanted to raise these two matters

17     as -- before these housekeeping matters started mounting up.  They're

18     relatively simple.

19             The first one is simply that the B/C/S version of P3758 was

20     uploaded into e-court in the incorrect order, although the English

21     translation is in the correct chronological order.  Accordingly, we have

22     re-uploaded the document under 65 ter 03078a, this time with the B/C/S

23     document in correct chronological order.

24             If the Defence are therefore in agreement, we would request that

25     65 ter number 03078a be assigned P3758.

Page 30138

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Defence, any objections?  No objections.

 2             I take it that you would like to have 03078 be replaced by 03078a

 3     in the B/C/S version.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to

 8     replace the current B/C/S version of P3758 by the newly uploaded one,

 9     which is 65 ter 03078a.

10             Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  And for the second matter, Mr. President, I think we

12     could deal with it more clearly and cleanly if we move into private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

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Page 30139

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             And although I have an agenda of 17 items still to be dealt with,

22     I'll deal with only one as -- of some urgency at this very moment.  It's

23     about the scheduling of the remaining Defence case and the request for an

24     update on expert reports.

25             The Chamber has now heard approximately one-third of the

Page 30140

 1     witnesses the Defence intends to call, according to its witness list of

 2     the 19th of May of 2014.  The Defence has also used less than one-third

 3     of the time it was granted by the Chamber in the decision of the 12th of

 4     May, 2014.

 5             If the current pace is sustained, the Defence case will continue

 6     into 2016.  In order to assist the Chamber in making accurate

 7     projections, the Defence is invited to advise the Chamber as soon as

 8     possible whether it intends to drop any witnesses from its witness list,

 9     even if that will be only a preliminary indication.

10             I can imagine, Mr. Lukic, that you have -- do not have an

11     immediate answer to that, but you certainly will have thought about it.

12             MR. LUKIC:  You're absolutely right, Your Honour, on both.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When could we hear from you to hear the result

14     of your thinking, especially on the second matter?

15             MR. LUKIC:  I -- can we deal with that next week, so we have this

16     weekend to maybe go through the list.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Early -- beginning of next week.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You have got until after the weekend to -- to

20     further rethink what you have thought about already.

21             Now, some of the remaining Defence witnesses are expert

22     witnesses, and I -- meanwhile, I already invite the usher to escort the

23     next witness into the courtroom.  But some of the remaining Defence

24     witnesses are expert witnesses.

25             As of today's date, the Defence has not filed any expert reports.

Page 30141

 1     It's now becoming urgent to start the Rule 94 bis procedure for these

 2     witnesses.  On the 5th of June of last year, the Chamber instructed the

 3     Defence to file monthly updates on the progress of expert reports.  The

 4     Chamber did not receive any reports in November and December, and the

 5     Chamber therefore requests the Defence to review the situation with

 6     regard to the expert reports and be ready to provide a detailed report in

 7     court on the 26th of January, 2015.

 8             I leave it to that for the time being.

 9             The next witness the Defence calls is --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Ms. Karlica.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And my colleague Stojanovic will lead this witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  Good morning, Mrs. Karlica.  Before

16     you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.

17     The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

18     declaration.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS: ZDRAVKA KARLICA

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

24             Ms. Karlica, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

25     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left behind the lectern.  Mr. Stojanovic is

Page 30142

 1     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning, Your

 4     Honours.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Karlica.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   I would like to ask you to tell us your exact name and surname.

 9     Slowly, please.

10        A.   Zdravka Karlica.

11        Q.   Mrs. Karlica, at one point in time did you answer questions that

12     were put to you by the Defence of General Mladic and did you provide a

13     statement in writing?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

16     have 65 ter 1D01672 in e-court.

17        Q.   Madam, there is a screen before you and there is a text entitled:

18     "Witness Statement."  Now, this is what I'm asking you:  On this page of

19     this witness statement, can you recognise this signature of yours?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

22     the last page of this document now.

23        Q.   Madam, on this last page after the text entitled "Witness

24     Acknowledgement," can you recognise your own signature and the date that

25     we see on this page?  Is it written in your own hand?

Page 30143

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look

 4     at paragraph 1 of this statement.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Zdravka, while preparing for your testimony in court, as we

 6     went through this statement of yours, did you indicate to me that it

 7     would be more precise and better to have the penultimate sentence changed

 8     in paragraph 1, the one that says:  "I have been doing this job for 13

 9     years."  Should it say:  "I have been doing this work for 13 years"?

10     Because you're not actually employed by this NGO.

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   In your view, would it be more precise, for the record, for this

13     sentence to read as follows:  "I have been doing this work for 13 years"?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to take a

17     look at paragraph 6 of this statement.

18        Q.   In the first paragraph in paragraph 6 in the last sentence,

19     during proofing, you also pointed out an imprecision to me.  So instead

20     of the word "paternal uncle," it should say "maternal uncle," "stric,"

21     "ujak"?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   So, for the record, should this sentence read as follows:

24             "After the murder of Radenko Djapa, his maternal uncle retaliated

25     against the Muslims for his murder," et cetera?

Page 30144

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to ask that we take a look at

 3     paragraph 16 of your statement.  In the last sentence, did you indicate

 4     to me that a correction should be made?  In the last line, we see the

 5     last name Zgonjanin but should it say Skrbic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   For the record, should this sentence read as follows then:

 8             "My late husband was with one of his soldiers, Zeljko Zgonjanin,

 9     and he was the first to see that someone had hurled a grenade from the

10     room next door at Zoran at him.  Zoran just managed to say, 'watch out,

11     it's on bomb,' and he immediately through himself to the ground.

12     However, the grenade exploded between his legs and blew to pieces his

13     left thigh, and Skrbic sustained wounds to both legs."

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now that we've made these three corrections in your

16     statement, today in this courtroom, after you have taken solemn

17     declaration, would you give identical answers to questions put to you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And would the statement stated in such precise terms contain

20     everything that you were asked about, to the best of your knowledge?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Zdravka.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

24     tender the statement of Witness Zdravka Karlica, 65 ter 1D01672.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections by the Prosecution?

Page 30145

 1             MR. ZEC:  Good morning.  No objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zec.

 3             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1672 receives number D863, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a good

 8     opportunity for me to tender associate exhibits 65 ter numbers 1D02850 -

 9     I'm actually tendering three documents - then 1D03511, and 1D16510.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The last one is a 65 ter number without 1D,

11     Mr. Stojanovic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's at least how it was announced in Annex B to

13     the motion.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right.

15     That's right, Your Honour.  65 ter 16510.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, objections against any of the three?

17             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 1D02850 would receive number?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D864, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

21             1D3511 would receive number?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D865, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

24             And 65 ter 16510 would receive?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D866, Your Honours.

Page 30146

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             With your leave, Your Honours, I would like to read a short

 4     summary of Witness Zdravka Karlica's statement.

 5             Zdravka Karlica is the president of the organisation of the

 6     families of POWs and fallen soldiers and missing civilians of Prijedor

 7     municipality.  She has been doing this work for 13 years now.  When the

 8     war started, she was in Prijedor where she lived with her family.

 9             Immediately after the war broke out in the territory of the

10     former Yugoslavia, her late husband was mobilised and deployed in Croatia

11     as a reserve officer and a member of the JNA.  On the 3rd of January

12     1992, he was wounded and hospitalised in Prijedor where he was when the

13     war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14             He was then mobilised and asked to report to the Zarko Zgonjanin

15     Barracks.  He was then assigned to the JNA units which were deployed in

16     Prijedor.  From conversations with her husband, she learnt about a lot of

17     events and incidents that had preceded the breakout of war in Prijedor

18     municipality.  She says that the first incident in Prijedor was the

19     murder of the policeman Radenko Djapa who was killed by Muslim

20     extremists.

21             That incident caused a lot of unrest among the general public and

22     population in Prijedor.  Her late husband participated in the

23     negotiations in Kozarac in the attempt to resolve the crisis in a

24     nonviolent manner.  He told her that the problem with the negotiations

25     was how to disarm paramilitaries that existed in Kozarac.  The moderate

Page 30147

 1     SDA stream agreed for those units to be disarmed and that postponed a

 2     conflict.  However, the other elements, extreme elements, did not accept

 3     that agreement and, as a result, there was an attack on the military

 4     vehicles' column that was moving from the direction of Kozarac.

 5             The witness also speaks about the incident which happened on the

 6     22nd of May, 1992 in the village of Hambarine.  Her late husband

 7     participated in those events, and he also participated in the

 8     negotiations with the representative of the Muslim side, Aziz Aliskovic.

 9     They discussed the takeover of the dead bodies of VRS members.

10             Finally, the negotiations came to fruition after a couple of

11     hours.  The witness also speaks about what she knows of the attack on the

12     central part of town of Prijedor during the night between the 29th and

13     the 30th of May, 1992, and she also speaks about the objectives of that

14     attacked launched by paramilitary formations.  Her husband and some of

15     his fellow combatants were wounded during that attack.  Due to the

16     severity of his wounds, he was first treated in Banja Luka and then he

17     was transferred to Belgrade where he succumbed to his wounds on the

18     6th of June, 1992.

19             The witness also shares her immediate knowledge about the

20     departure of the non-Serbian population from Prijedor.  She also says

21     that a large number of Muslims left the municipality even before the war.

22             And, finally, she says that in her late husband's units there

23     were members of all nationalities, some of whom were his closest

24     associates.

25             Thank you, Your Honours.  This is a short summary of the

Page 30148

 1     witness's statement, and with your leave, I would like to put a couple of

 2     questions to the witness in order to clarify some matters.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may do so, Mr. Stojanovic.  You said it was a

 4     short summary.  I would say it was a summary.  And one of my good

 5     intentions was not to intervene before it turned out to be necessary.

 6     Perhaps, what was on my mind, I should have reminded you that summaries

 7     should be short summaries.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in paragraph 17

10     of the witness's statement, which is now D863.

11        Q.   Mrs. Zdravka, in paragraph 17, you pointed out in your statement

12     that you knew what the objectives of Slavko Ecimovic's group had been

13     when they launched the attack on the 29th and the 30th of May, 1992.  You

14     mentioned those objectives.  How do you know that?  Where does your

15     information come from?

16        A.   On the 30th of May, my husband was wounded, which means that

17     people from that unit came and told me that the attack had been launched

18     from various directions.  He was wounded close to the hotel.  Allegedly,

19     that group was supposed to reach Radio Prijedor.  That was the main

20     objective.  And then the others would have become involved in the

21     fighting around Prijedor.  In other words, I heard that from the people

22     who came to our house.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 18 of your statement, you say that the

24     villagers of Cela and Puharska were not bothered and that they remained

25     living in their villages throughout the war.  Please tell the Court

Page 30149

 1     whether you learned at any point in time that on the eve of the

 2     Dayton Accords the villagers of those villages abandoned their homes?

 3        A.   I must say that before 1995, i.e., after Operation Storm, they

 4     abandoned their homes because people arrived from Croatia and looked for

 5     their new homes.  It was only then when they left the villages of Cela

 6     and Puharska; but since then a lot of them have returned, as far as I

 7     know.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to draw your attention to

 9     paragraph 8 in your statement.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

11     move into private session for the next question that I would like to put

12     to the witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

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Page 30150











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Page 30151

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 30152

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mrs. Karlica, thank you very much for your answers on behalf of

 3     General Mladic's Defence.  At this point, we have no further questions

 4     for you.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             Before I would invite the Prosecution to start its

 8     cross-examination, I would have one question about a paragraph which was

 9     specifically addressed by Mr. Stojanovic.

10             In paragraph 18 of your statement, Witness, you said that no one

11     bothered the non-Serbian villages that had not attacked the Serbian

12     forces, and that none of their inhabitants -- that were touched upon and

13     that they remained in their villages throughout the war, and you

14     mentioned two villages.

15             Now, could you tell us what happened with the mothers and the

16     children and the elderly in those villages that had attacked the Serbian

17     forces?  I'm not talking about men being involved in the attacks, but I'm

18     talking about their families.  Were they -- did anyone touch upon any of

19     those inhabitants - again - of the villages that did attack the Serb

20     forces?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must admit that I didn't know

22     much about that.  There was a meeting in Sehovac near Sanski Most

23     attended by Serbs and Bosniaks from Prijedor.  That was the first time I

24     heard that a lot of women and children had been killed around Prijedor.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When did that meeting take place?

Page 30153

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps six or seven years ago.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what did you mean when you said that you

 3     learned that women and children were killed?  Were they intentionally

 4     killed, were they murdered, or were they victims of the war operations?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, it was a shocking

 6     piece of information for me.  I heard that 256 women and 10 girls had

 7     been killed during the war.  That's what I heard on that occasion.  On

 8     returning from that meeting, together with my colleague who had also

 9     attended the meeting, I went to that cemetery to see where so many people

10     had --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that's not an answer to my question.  My

12     question is whether did you learn that they were killed, murdered, or

13     that they were victims of the war operations?  If you shell a certain

14     area, it can be that a woman or a child is hit by that.  You can also

15     just murder children and women.

16             What did you learn at that meeting that had happened?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that meeting, I found out the

18     number of the victims involved.  However, last year in January we had a

19     meeting of the Helsinki Committee, and I found out about the killings in

20     the village of Zecovi where women and children were killed.  The son of

21     one of these women spoke about this.  Actually, he came from a family

22     where the mother and her daughters - his sisters, that is - had been

23     killed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean murdered.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 30154

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, those who were not murdered in those

 2     villages that had attacked the Serb forces, those women, children, and

 3     elderly, who again were not killed, could they remain in those villages?

 4     Did they continue to live there?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot give you an answer

 6     to that question as I really don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever hear anything about children and women

 8     being taken from their villages and held in a situation in which they

 9     were not entirely free to move around?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did hear about that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, when I -- you talked about the killing,

12     you spontaneously answered by saying what you heard.  Here you say, "I

13     can't say anything about it," although you heard about it as well.  What

14     did you hear?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard about camps, if

16     that's what we mean.  Of course I heard about that.  I heard about

17     Omarska, Trnopolje, Keraterm.  I heard about all of that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Zec, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

20             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Zec.

22     You'll find him to your right.  And Mr. Zec is counsel for the

23     Prosecution.

24             Please proceed.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do so, can I ask a follow-up question

Page 30155

 1     on the questions by the Presiding Judge.

 2             Madam, you talked about women and children being murdered in the

 3     village of Zecovi.  Can you tell us by whom were these people murdered?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see now that people are

 5     being arrested, people who had been killing these women and children in

 6     the village of Zecovi.  As far as I know, already 16 of them were brought

 7     in; that is to say, Serbs.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  16 of them were Serbs?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know how many have been brought of whom the

11     16 form a part?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  Maybe -- I

13     don't know the exact number, no.  I know that quite a few Serbs were held

14     accountable and were sentenced to many years in prison.  Now, these

15     arrests only have to do with the village of Zecovi as far as I know.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were these Serbs part of any army at the time when

17     they killed, according to the allegations?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know exactly now that

19     they belonged to an army.  I know about two men that I know personally.

20     I heard that they had been arrested, that they were on the reserve police

21     force.  As for the others, I really don't know.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The reserve police force of which army, of which

23     authority?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reserve policemen of the Serb

25     authorities.  The reserve police, the Serb reserve police.

Page 30156

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             Mr. Zec.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- yes, but, Mr. Zec, to start cross-examination

 4     for three minutes might not be the wisest thing to do.  Perhaps we take

 5     an early break, and we'd -- one second, please.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll not start your cross-examination before the

 8     break.  We'd like to see you back in approximately 25 minutes from now.

 9     You may follow the usher.

10             Meanwhile, I use the time until 10.30 for a short agenda item.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is the following.  It's about 92 ter motions

13     for four witnesses:  Bosiljka Mladic, Radovan Popovic, Biljana Stojkovic,

14     and Zarko Stojkovic.

15             On the 19th of December of last year, the Defence filed 92 ter

16     motions for witnesses Bosiljka Mladic, Radovan Popovic,

17     Biljana Stojkovic, and Zarko Stojkovic.  The Prosecution does not oppose

18     the motions.  The Chamber has reviewed the motions and observes that

19     there's a considerable amount of overlap between the witnesses' proposed

20     evidence and the parties' joint submissions on agreed facts dated the 4th

21     of June, 2013.

22             In particular, these witnesses' testimonies relate directly to

23     the chronology of the accused's whereabouts between the 14th and the 17th

24     of July, 1995.

25             Could the Defence please indicate why it is necessary to present

Page 30157

 1     evidence in relation to facts that have already been agreed between the

 2     parties?

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  First of all, there was a

 5     disagreement in between the parties about the moment of return of

 6     General Mladic to Republika Srpska.  We have a disagreement on this

 7     issue.  And also the Prosecution, through the Witness Lesic and his video

 8     recording, actually, is trying to present that General Mladic was able to

 9     command over the forces, although being outside the area of his

10     responsibility and outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we think it's

11     crucial for us to prove that he did not have any means of communication

12     by which he was or would be able to command his forces.  And it is

13     crucial for us to prove that on the 16th of July he was not in the area

14     of Republika Srpska.

15             So if we can agree on those two issues with the Prosecution, we

16     would certainly not bring these witnesses to testify.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If I do understand you well, there are three items

18     which are in dispute.  The first is technical possibilities for

19     communication where Mr. Mladic was in Belgrade.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's one.

22             Second, the exact time of his return.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And the third one, his whereabouts on the 16th of

25     July.

Page 30158

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll -- having this in mind, we'll re-read

 3     the statement and we'll see whether the statement focuses on that or

 4     whether it's more, because the presentation of evidence, and we'll also

 5     of course look at what the Prosecution witnesses said about it, the

 6     presentation of evidence should be focused on matters that are in

 7     dispute.  But at least it's clear now which three points specifically

 8     caused you to introduce these 92 ter witness statements.

 9             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier this morning, we discussed P3758.  I said

13     that the B/C/S version should be replaced by the newly uploaded B/C/S

14     version.  Now, the newly uploaded version is a complete version; that is,

15     both B/C/S, which is now -- in the version is put in the correct order.

16     But it also contains the English version, which is unchanged.

17             So, therefore, when I said that the B/C/S version should be

18     replaced, I was not entirely accurate because the whole of the document

19     is to be replaced, although the English version did not undergo any

20     changes.

21             I briefly deal with number -- the -- an item about the testimony

22     of Radovan Glogovac.

23             On the 4th of September of last year, Exhibit P6723 was marked

24     for identification due to its length, and that can be found at transcript

25     pages 25304.  The Chamber was informed via an e-mail on the 17th of

Page 30159

 1     December by the Prosecution that an excerpt of the document has been

 2     uploaded into e-court under Rule 65 ter number 19313a.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any objections against the short version

 5     now uploaded to be admitted?

 6             Mr. Lukic is nodding that there is no objection.  The Chamber

 7     hereby admits the excerpt uploaded under Rule 65 ter number 19313a as

 8     Exhibit P6723, and Madam Registrar is instructed to replace the current

 9     document in e-court with the excerpt bearing Rule 65 ter 19313a.

10             Mr. Zec, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

11             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             Witness, I already told you that you would be cross-examined by

14     Mr. Zec.  You find him to your right.

15             Mr. Zec, please proceed.

16             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

18        Q.   And good morning, Ms. Karlica.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Just before the break, you were talking about what you learned

21     during a conference about the killings in Zecovi.  Can you just confirm

22     for the clarity of the record that Zecovi is a village in Bircani area,

23     which is part of Brdo, near Prijedor.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And in answering the question of His Honour, Judge Moloto, you

Page 30160

 1     referred to two men that you knew personally that were arrested in regard

 2     to this murder.  Can you tell us the names of these two people?

 3        A.   Radomir Stojanic and his son Zoran.

 4        Q.   And these people that were arrested, that happened just last

 5     year; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now with respect to your statement, you told us that you work as

 8     the president of the organisation for the families of captured and fallen

 9     soldiers and missing civilians of Prijedor.  I will have just two quick

10     questions about this.

11             First, this organisation was part -- is part of the republican

12     organisation for the families of captured and fallen soldiers and missing

13     civilians of Republika Srpska; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now without going into any detail about the work or the policy of

16     the organisation, can you confirm that its main focus is tracking missing

17     soldiers of the VRS and Serb civilians of Republika Srpska?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In your statement you talk about your late husband,

20     Zdravko Karlica, and his combat activities.  Your late husband,

21     Ms. Karlica, he was honoured by the Serb -- by the RS authorities for his

22     service and accomplishments as a loyal VRS soldier, yes?

23        A.   Just a brief observation, he's Zoran, not Zdravko.

24        Q.   My apologies.  That's my mistake.  Can you confirm -- yes.

25        A.   You spoke about this to Croatian -- yes, yes.  He was the

Page 30161

 1     recipient of a decoration.  And, that is to say, after his death.

 2        Q.   The RS authorities have honoured your late husband for his war

 3     efforts by naming a square in Prijedor after him; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You say in your statement that your late husband was a member of

 6     the Prijedor Motorised Brigade as of September 1991 when he went to

 7     Croatia.  In paragraph 3 you say, and I will quote:

 8             "My late husband told me that his task in Western Slavonia was to

 9     defend the Serbian people and of course our houses."

10             So your late husband's position was that the Prijedor Motorised

11     Brigade went to Croatia to protect the Serbian population in its

12     entirety; that is, both those in Croatia and in Bosnia, yes?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In paragraph 6, you say that Serbs in Prijedor started talking

15     about the genocide committed against the Serbs during the Second World

16     War, and in fact the public perception as communicated through the media

17     was that the Serbian population was endangered by others and that the

18     events of the Second World War were about to repeat; right?

19        A.   Well, that's what people were saying.

20        Q.   During the war, the Prijedor Motorised Brigade was praised in the

21     media in Republika Srpska for its role in helping Serbs in Croatia for

22     liberating Prijedor and saving the Serbian population; correct?

23        A.   Well, I didn't quite understand what you were saying, actually.

24     They were members of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, and you know the date up

25     until which that was the case.

Page 30162

 1        Q.   And this Chamber has received evidence about transformation from

 2     JNA to VRS, but my question was simpler than that.  It's more about

 3     praising the war efforts of this brigade in Croatia and Bosnia.  So their

 4     war efforts, they were praised in the media in Republika Srpska during

 5     the war; correct?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   And the RS authorities considered the liberation of Prijedor as

 8     important military victory; correct?

 9        A.   Well, certainly, yes.  I mean ...

10        Q.   I'll show you now a video-clip which was played on the Serbian

11     television in 1994 which talks about a warpath and successes of the

12     Prijedor Motorised Brigade.  It may be that you have seen this video

13     before, but I want to tell you that this video refers to your late

14     husband, among other things.  So I want you to know what is coming up in

15     the video before it is being played.  Is that okay for you?

16        A.   All right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, any text spoken?  Do we have to play it

18     twice?

19             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, there is text spoken and we have asked

20     CLSS to check the accuracy of the translation, which they kindly did.  So

21     I suggest that we play only once.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it the accuracy of the transcription,

23     that's in the original, and then we have to play it only once.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. ZEC:  For the record, the video is 65 ter 22733a.

Page 30163

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] In fact, that was the best Serbian

 3     brigade in the period between the last two Saint Vitus's Days.  This is

 4     the reason why the president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

 5     decorated the Prijedor men with the highest award of the state - the

 6     Nemanjic Order.  The brigade was established on the 16th of September,

 7     1991 by the order on mobilisation of what was then the 5th Banja Luka

 8     Corps of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, and it became the 343rd Motorised

 9     Brigade of the Yugoslav Army.  Within only two days, the brigade command

10     managed to carry out the mobilisation and head out, with just 42 per cent

11     of the necessary manpower and without any reinforcements to carry out a

12     combat task on the main axis of the then-5th Banja Luka Corps.  This axis

13     was:  Strug-Okucani-Lipik-Pakrac.

14             "At that time, it was the Muslims or, rather, the Party of

15     Democratic Action who held power in Prijedor.  Their leadership did

16     everything possible to prevent mobilisation, and especially to prevent

17     the brigade from going to the front line and assisting the endangered

18     Serbian people of Western Slavonia.  They did so publicly, using threats,

19     openly advocating secession and the creation of the Muslim Jamahiriya in

20     the entire territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The warpath of

21     the 43rd Motorised Brigade, better known and famous under the name of

22     Prijedor Brigade, is not easy to describe because this brigade is

23     special, unique and great in many ways, and it will certainly go down in

24     Serbian war history as the brigade which won the swiftest, greatest, and

25     most important victory in this battle - the battle for Prijedor.  This

Page 30164

 1     battle and victory determined not only the fate of this town, but also

 2     the fate of the entire Serb people in Potkozarje and Krajina.

 3             "Potkozarje was and will remain a chapter that stands out;

 4     because it must not be forgotten that it was along this part of the

 5     centuries-old Serbian border - in this area populated by the best, the

 6     most honourable Serbs who ever lived and fought - that the mission to

 7     wipe out Serbdom had nearly been accomplished during and especially after

 8     the Second World War.  Few and far between were any places where the wail

 9     of the muezzin would be answered by a chime from the belfry; few and far

10     between were spots where incense still burned under the icon lamp.  The

11     Serb people of Potkozarje had been driven to their wits' end.  They were

12     at the end of their tether, at the mercy of reformists of all hues,

13     peace-keepers, and newfangled democrats.  Although at their wit's end,

14     the Serbs were wary.  At the eleventh hour, memories awakened of their

15     bitter experience from the time of their great ordeal - the time of

16     death, slaughter, genocide and extermination - but also the resolve not

17     to let history repeat itself; the resolve to prevent a new massacre and

18     another struggle for survival, at the price of seeing victory replaced by

19     defeat, former executioners taking place of victims, the faith of their

20     forefathers ceding to the nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking

21     devised by Broz.

22             "This is why on the 16th of September, Vladimir Arsic and his

23     deputy, Radmilo Zeljaja, the commander and the Chief of Staff of the

24     43rd Motorised Brigade, respectively, took their units down a long road

25     of trial and tribulation, uncertainty, tempering by fire and great

Page 30165

 1     victories.  The first and perhaps the most triumphant" --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this still going on?  I have

 3     nothing now.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are continuing with the

 5     translation of the video.

 6             "At first and perhaps the most triumphant decisive victory of

 7     this brigade and the men of Kozara was precisely that battle in Western

 8     Slavonia.  This was a time when its scout company, later name

 9     Zoran Karlica, after its celebrated commander, bore the brunt of the

10     fighting in defence of its people and this part of the front line.  With

11     his young men, he seemed to be everywhere at once, closing gaps opened up

12     after some parts of the units had pulled out.  Very often, the scouts

13     took on the enemy head-on, inflicting losses and sowing panic in their

14     ranks."

15             MR. ZEC:

16        Q.   Ms. Karlica, apologies for the delay.  We were receiving

17     translation what you --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait.  Yes.  We were still waiting for the French

19     translation to be finished.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   We heard here, Ms. Karlica, among other things, that

23     President Radovan Karadzic decorated the Prijedor Brigade with the

24     highest award for their war efforts, including the most important victory

25     of the war, the battle for Prijedor.  So this reflects the importance of

Page 30166

 1     the victory and taking control over Prijedor to the RS leadership;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I have to say, if I may that is, that in the 43rd Brigade there

 4     were a lot of non-Serb soldiers, and I'm sure that the decoration was

 5     bestowed in the way described in the video.

 6        Q.   And for the sake of better understanding of the video, I'll

 7     just -- I'll quickly ask you couple of quick questions.

 8             While the video was played, we saw the logo SRT.  Can you confirm

 9     that this was the logo of the Serbian Radio Television which was the

10     public media service of Republika Srpska; correct?

11        A.   I was in two minds whether it was Serbia or Republika Srpska.  It

12     was a bit blurred.

13        Q.   Would you like to see again quickly to be -- to check or ...

14             MR. ZEC:  Stop here.

15        Q.   So if you see the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, is the issue you're raising whether this

17     was Serb-oriented broadcasting?

18             MR. ZEC:  And to make clear that this was the public media

19     service of Republika Srpska, and in that regard we have also a decision

20     forming this media service by Republika Srpska Assembly we can offer if

21     the Chamber would like to have that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- yes, but apparently you want to emphasize

23     that it's not neutral?

24             MR. ZEC:  Correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whether it's Serb or Republika Srpska,

Page 30167

 1     in both cases you would say that it's at least -- but I'll let you go, if

 2     you would think it's -- it's really important for us to know that it was

 3     Republika Srpska television, then ...

 4             Also a matter, have you sought the agreement of the Defence on

 5     that matter?

 6             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr. President.  But perhaps we can talk or if they

 7     have position now, I can move on.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any challenge to this being a

 9     Republika Srpska public broadcasting?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that that was indeed

11     the case and that the symbol denotes the first year of work of the

12     television of Republika Srpska.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, what you believe is not relevant for us.

14     It is what you stipulate and agree upon is.  You agree that it's Serb

15     public -- Republika Srpska public broadcast?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President, thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             Now going back to the video, and if we can have transcripts on

20     the screen.  65 ter 22733a.

21        Q.   And very quick two questions, Ms. Karlica.  If you look towards

22     the end of the page in your language, you will see that there is a

23     reference to the battle for Prijedor.  And if you look that part towards

24     the end of the page, a few lines, you will see there it says, and I will

25     quote, if it's easier for you:

Page 30168

 1             "Few and far between were any places where the wail of muezzins

 2     would be answered by the chime from the belfry; few and far between were

 3     spots where incense still burned under the icon lamp."

 4             So it may be clear, but in your understanding does this mean, as

 5     it is presented here, that the non-Serb religious sites dominated over

 6     the Serb or Orthodox religious sites and its tradition; correct?

 7        A.   As far as I understand it, I am sure that there were more

 8     non-Serb religious facilities than those belonging to the Serbs, and I'm

 9     talking about a period preceding the war.

10        Q.   And if you look back at the transcript, starting from the place

11     where we stopped.

12             MR. ZEC:  And we will need in B/C/S next page.

13        Q.   Looking over the first several lines --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we have to go to the next page in English,

15     too.

16             MR. ZEC:  That's correct.  In B/C/S, we need previous page and

17     next page in English; correct.  Thank you very much.

18             If we can in B/C/S -- if we can have page 1.  Thank you.

19        Q.   You will see there is a reference, and I'll quote for you -- for

20     your benefit.  It just says:

21             "... the nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking devised by

22     Broz."

23             So can you just confirm that this reference is -- refers to the

24     time of Yugoslavia and the rule of socialism under Josip Broz Tito;

25     correct?

Page 30169

 1        A.   It seems that I don't have the same text as you do.  I can't find

 2     it.  I'm not reading the same thing.

 3             MR. ZEC:  In B/C/S second page.  My apologies.

 4        Q.   So first several lines you will see where it refers to the

 5     nightmarish ideology of the uniform thinking devised by Broz.  So the

 6     question is simple:  Do you agree that this is the reference to the

 7     socialism time of Yugoslavia and Josip Broz Tito?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness is asked

 9     to interpret somebody's words, the words that were not uttered by her,

10     the words that she has nothing to do with.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute as this is to

12     be a reference to the -- to the socialism time of Yugoslavia?  I mean ...

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honours, as

14     I'm reading this text, I can see that this has been taken from the

15     context.  That sentence has been misquoted by the Prosecutor, because

16     that sentence actually reads:

17             "The faith of our forefathers in what was construed to be Tito's

18     ideology ..."

19             But this is a free interpretation, so I am not in agreement what

20     the Prosecutor is trying to imply here.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there an interpretation issue?

22     Then we should focus on the interpretation.  Are you saying that it has

23     to be verified, the interpretation?  Is it not accurate?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this is not what I'm

25     claiming, Your Honours.  I'm saying and I'm reading the text in B/C/S.

Page 30170

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now the text you read and the text which was

 2     quoted by Mr. Zec -- just --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I don't have

 4     that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't worry for a moment, Witness.

 6             Is that a reference to the -- a reference to the socialist time

 7     in which Tito was in power?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I cannot see that, Your

 9     Honours.  And this, bearing in mind page 33, lines 2 and 3, on our

10     today's record and the text of the question is precisely what we are

11     talking about.

12             MR. ZEC:  For the benefit of Mr. Stojanovic, if he reads line 6,

13     there is a reference to Broz, and I'm referring to B/C/S line 6.  There

14     is a reference to Broz, and I think it's going to be clear then.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, the part you read in English is the last

16     sentence of the first half of the page, isn't it, what we have on our

17     screen now?

18             MR. ZEC:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Where do we see that in -- let me just have a look.

20             MR. ZEC:  In B/C/S, it's line 6 and Broz has a small capital.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.

22             MR. ZEC:  So that's maybe confusing, because of the construction

23     of that sentence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you literally quote, because there

25     apparently is no translation issue as far as Mr. Stojanovic is concerned,

Page 30171

 1     you literally quote, to start with, what you wanted to put to the witness

 2     and don't ask a question yet.

 3             Could you please quote exactly what you wanted to refer to.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Simply the line where it refers to the --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I asked you to read that line.

 6             MR. ZEC:  "... nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking devised

 7     by Broz."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you're the issue was whether this is a

 9     reference to the socialist time -- and, no, it was the --

10             MR. ZEC:  Under Josip Broz Tito; correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Any dispute about that, Mr. Stojanovic?  A reference to an

13     ideology developed or -- by Tito, wouldn't that be a reference to the

14     time when he was in power?  Or is there any other explanation you think

15     is appropriate in this context?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Tito's ideology

17     does not go just back to the period of socialism.  It goes back to the

18     1930s when Tito became the leader of the Communist Party, from the fourth

19     congress of the communist party that is.  The question therefore is of an

20     academic nature.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, it didn't change when he was in

22     power after the 1930s, did it, in your view -- in the Defence's view?  He

23     didn't give up on that ideology later when he was in power, in the

24     Defence's opinion?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  Although,

Page 30172

 1     after 1948 his policies evolved and took a different turn after the

 2     conflict with informbiro.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems it takes a course which is not for a

 4     witness to further interpret.  We all know that there was a time, and

 5     that apparently is the -- we know when Tito was in power, at least the

 6     parties could agree on that, and that apparently this is a reference to

 7     his ideology.  So I don't need -- see why we need the witness to further

 8     interpret this text.

 9             MR. ZEC:  I agree, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. ZEC:  And we can move on.

12             And I'll just tender this video and the Chamber will have an

13     opportunity to review it on its own.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the video which is now, I see, a

15     DVD is given to the Registry.  The number would be, Madam Registrar?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22733a receives number P7028, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, admitted into

19     evidence.

20             Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Ms. Karlica, we just heard the position of the Serb authorities

23     regarding the importance of the victory in Prijedor.  And in fact, after

24     the take-over by Serb authorities, many of the street names and names of

25     the schools in Prijedor were changed from non-Serb names and the names of

Page 30173

 1     communists to Serb names; correct?

 2        A.   I know that that was the case.  Some schools did change their

 3     names, and some streets did as well, except for the square and a couple

 4     streets that were named after the figures from the previous war.

 5        Q.   An example of that is the square in the city centre which it was

 6     called Lenin square, it was renamed to the name of your late husband.

 7     The street where you lived was called Marsala Tita Street was renamed to

 8     Kralja Petra I Oslobodioca Street; correct?

 9        A.   The name of the street is the street of King Peter the 1st, the

10     liberator, if that's the street you had in mind.  In the centre of the

11     city; right?

12        Q.   Correct.  And I'll show you quickly one document.

13             MR. ZEC:  It's 65 ter 31650.

14        Q.   And this is a list of old and the new names of the streets and

15     schools in Prijedor.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about massive changing of the

17     names of streets?  We've seen that in Serb and in non-Serb territories as

18     well.  Is there any dispute about it?

19             MR. ZEC:  If the Defence has no dispute, I think I can move on.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from what the relevance is.  I mean, I do

21     see that after a war that often peoples are inclined to rename and to get

22     rid of what they consider a past which they would like not to be reminded

23     of and then change that.  And why do we have to go through all of these

24     details?  I mean, we have seen already so much dubious -- evidence of

25     dubious relevance in the statement itself, and now to have in

Page 30174

 1     cross-examination even more of that is not something that the Chamber

 2     would encourage.

 3             You have not sought even the agreement of the Defence in that.

 4     Is there any agreement that changes -- or massively changed,

 5     Mr. Stojanovic, the names of the streets?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with this, Your Honours.

 7     A lot of the street names were indeed changed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed, Mr. Zec.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Ms. Karlica, in your statement in paragraph 18 you gave an

11     example of Puharska and Cela as an example that no one bothered non-Serbs

12     and nobody touched any of the inhabitants.  So basically, are you saying

13     that there is no -- there was no instances of attacks, intimidations,

14     killings, in these areas?  And I'm referring to Puharska now for the

15     example that you gave.  Yes?

16        A.   That's what I heard.  Those villages were calm.  There were no

17     attacks.  At least according to what I heard.  If things happened

18     differently, then I've been misinformed.

19        Q.   The mosque in Donja --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do that, who told you about Puharska,

21     about what happened there?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drasko Vujic who was a witness here

23     as well.  He was there and he said that nothing was going on there.  He

24     was one of the commanders.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When did he tell you?

Page 30175

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  It was a long

 2     time ago, perhaps ten years or so.  That's when he spoke about that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   The mosque in Donja Puharska was destroyed in summer 1992.  In

 6     the explosion, several non-Serbs were killed and injured in their homes;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   I know that happened.  My sister lives nearby.  I know that the

 9     house was damaged.  I don't know that anybody was killed.  I don't know

10     or I don't remember.

11        Q.   During the course of the same evening when the mosque was

12     destroyed, the Prijedor Catholic church was destroyed; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 31821.  And this is an investigative

15     file regarding the destruction of the mosque in Donja Puharska.  It

16     contains the statement of Rasim Dzafic and several photographs of the

17     mosque destroyed in 1992.

18             Can we have e-court page 3 for the B/C/S and page 4 for the

19     English.

20        Q.   If you look at the last two paragraphs in your language,

21     Ms. Karlica --

22             MR. ZEC:  And in the English it's the first part of the page.

23        Q.   -- Dzafic said that he was injured in the explosion, that the

24     Kusturan family members were killed while their son, Osman, was injured.

25             MR. ZEC:  Can we now turn to the next page in the B/C/S and then

Page 30176

 1     in the English as well.

 2        Q.   Looking at the second-last paragraph in the statement, it says

 3     that the course of the same evening the Catholic church was destroyed.

 4     And I'll just quickly show you the photographs that are in this file.

 5             MR. ZEC:  So if we can both --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the witness could tell us anything about

 7     it, then we would like to hear.  But just to inform the witness about

 8     what was reported at the time, if she says she has no knowledge about it,

 9     it doesn't make any sense --

10             Witness, it's now put to you that the Puharska population was not

11     untouched, that the mosque was destroyed, and this caused victims.  Do

12     you have any knowledge about that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Puharska is a rather wide area.

14     When I said that it was calm there, I had in mind the area behind the

15     Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks.  As for Donja Puharska, where the mosque was

16     demolished and some 400 or 500 metres away was that church, I heard about

17     those incidents.  Actually, those were very powerful explosions that we

18     all heard.  At that time I resided in Urije and I heard the explosion.

19     When I spoke about Puharska, I had in mind the part of the Puharska

20     behind the barracks.  Not Donja Puharska.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, would you agree that if a mosque was

22     blown up in Puharska, Donja Puharska, that that would have touched upon

23     the non-Serb population of that village?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was Serb and non-Serb

25     population there.  The mosque was close to the city.  It's not a village.

Page 30177

 1     It's actually a suburb of Prijedor.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't talk about ethnicity.  I was just talking

 3     about whether it touched upon the population irrespective of their

 4     ethnicity.  Would you agree with that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  We were all upset that

 6     a thing like that had happened.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's not expressed in your statement, but I

 8     do understand that that's limited to a very small area which is not the

 9     whole of the Puharska area.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

11             MR. ZEC:

12        Q.   Did you know that people of Puharska were taken and killed; an

13     example, Fadil Dizdarevic who was taken and shot.  Did you know about

14     that example?

15        A.   Could you please repeat the family name.

16        Q.   I gave the example Fadil Dizdarevic.  He was taken and shot?

17        A.   I really don't know.

18        Q.   If you look at the statement in front of you in B/C/S page 3,

19     English page 4, e-court page 4 in English -- and then we --

20        A.   It's page 2 on my screen.

21             MR. ZEC:  In B/C/S, next page.  B/C/S -- next page in B/C/S,

22     please.

23        Q.   So if you look at around the middle of the first paragraph, and

24     it's -- it says:

25             "Several days later, our neighbour, Fadil Dizdarevic, came to

Page 30178

 1     repair hodza's house.  Djordje Dosen, also known as Djo [phoen], found

 2     him there.  He took him to the car and drove off.  A day or two later,

 3     Fadil's body was found in the Sana River.  His chest was riddled with

 4     bullets."

 5             So this is an example of what was happening to people, non-Serb

 6     population of Puharska; correct?

 7        A.   I am really not in a position to know that.  You know that my

 8     husband succumbed to his wound on the 6th of June.  I don't know when

 9     this happened, though.  For a year, there was not a single day that I

10     didn't go to the cemetery to visit my husband's grave.  How was I

11     supposed to know this?  If I'd been in the neighbourhood, perhaps I would

12     have known.  But really I don't know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the reason why Mr. Zec is asking you is

14     because you give in your statement a comment on what happened in Cela and

15     Puharska, whereas you said you heard that some ten years ago.  Now, what

16     Mr. Zec is doing is asking you some details which he finds in documents,

17     and I do understand that your answer is that you had no personal

18     knowledge about many events which may have taken place in that area.

19     That's the issue Mr. Zec is raising and he has done so.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I would tender this file with

22     photographs.  If you would like me to go with witness through the

23     photograph, if she recognise, if it's helpful for the Chamber, we can do

24     it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there --

Page 30179

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no need to have the witness identify the --

 3     if there is any serious concerns about these photographs depicting

 4     something which is not depicting what it is said to depict, then we would

 5     like to hear from the Defence without any delay.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We shall object to have this

 8     admitted into evidence, particularly because it is complex.  It consists

 9     of a statement by a witness and a few photographs for the area of

10     Donja Puharska as is written here.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And if a document is complex, is that a reason to

12     have it not admitted, Mr. Stojanovic?  Any basis for that?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, from the very

14     outset it has been our position that witnesses who do not appear here

15     should not have their statements admitted.  A person is not being called

16     here and then this is being tendered nevertheless.

17             Also, this is documentation that was compiled on the 5th of

18     September, 1997 by the Ministry of Police and the Security Services

19     Centre in Bihac.  That's what is stated here.  So the authenticity of

20     this document is questionable, therefore.  It is for all these reasons

21     that we believe that this should not be admitted.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The one and only matter that remains as relevant for

24     our decision, whether or not to admit, is the authenticity.

25             And, Mr. Stojanovic, authenticity of what exactly?  It not being

Page 30180

 1     a -- the document created in 1997, or the photographs not depicting what

 2     they are supposed to depict?  What's, exactly, the authenticity issue you

 3     raise so that Mr. Zec has an opportunity to tackle it or to accept it?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to this

 5     document, photographs were taken in September 1992 which would indicate

 6     that this happened in September 1992 at the latest.  The photographs and

 7     this document, nevertheless, were compiled by a completely different

 8     organ from a different town, the CSB in Bihac, on the 5th of September in

 9     Bihac, 1997.  So we don't have the chain, we don't have any information

10     about how this reached Bihac all of a sudden.  So all that brings into

11     question the authenticity of this document.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, irrespective of the fact whether

14     what you raised a second ago is a thorough challenge to the authenticity,

15     because the fact that photographs are taken in 1992 does not

16     automatically mean that they only are accurate or if they are put in a

17     document in 1992.

18             But, Mr. Zec, you have an opportunity to ask further questions

19     about the photographs.

20             MR. ZEC:  And only to note, Mr. President, the reason I tendered

21     the whole file is that the statement explains the destruction of the

22     mosque and the chain of custody of the photographs in the file.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

24             MR. ZEC:  So that's helpful.  And I can certainly provide

25     additional information when we received this file.

Page 30181

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you want to put any further questions

 2     to the witness in relation to the photographs, you have an opportunity to

 3     do so.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Ms. Karlica, let's quickly look these photographs, and I'll ask

 6     you if you can recognise their location and the mosque.

 7             MR. ZEC:  So if we can have now in B/C/S and English next page.

 8     In English, we should also have -- next page in English.  One more page,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, in English there are no photographs.

11             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But perhaps the text, yes.

13             MR. ZEC:  Correct.  Yes, there is the translation of the text.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             MR. ZEC:

16        Q.   So this is the mosque in Puharska before it was destroyed.  Can

17     you recognise?

18        A.   I recognise that this is a mosque.  But, please, may I be allowed

19     to say something?  Please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Witness, you earlier testified that your sister

21     was living quite close to this mosque, I take it.

22             That question was about the same mosque, Mr. Zec.

23             Do you recognise this mosque as the mosque which was close to

24     where your sister lived?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is that mosque.  But

Page 30182

 1     please, may we clarify one thing:  This is Donja Puharska, whereas I

 2     spoke about Puharska.  I did not speak about Donja Puharska and you keep

 3     leading me to -- these are two different places.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That has been clarified previously and it

 5     clearly says, under this photograph as well, that is Donja Puharska.  So

 6     that is -- there is no doubt about that.

 7             So please proceed, Mr. Zec.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Next page in English and B/C/S.  Perhaps we can see

 9     also next page with -- they are similar, so we can then -- I will ask the

10     witness if she can recognise.  Can we have next page.

11        Q.   Are you able to recognise this as remains of the mosque in

12     Puharska after this destruction?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should clarify Donja Puharska.

14             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see it as D Puharska.

16             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   In Donja Puharska.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And can we have the English translation of what is

19     being said on this picture, please?  Because I think that this related to

20     the previous picture.

21             MR. ZEC:  Perhaps we can also go to next page --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's --

23             MR. ZEC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- first see whether the witness can answer the

25     question.

Page 30183

 1             MR. ZEC:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you repeat the question so that the witness

 3     is reminded of what it was about.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Ms. Karlica, are you able to recognise this as remains of the

 6     mosque, if you remember?

 7        A.   I cannot challenge this, but I myself had not seen this in this

 8     state.  I never went there.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness had looked at page 7 of the B/C/S in

10     this report.  Page 7 in e-court.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. ZEC:  Can we turn next page.  Again, next page.  Again, next

13     page, please.

14        Q.   So on this page, we see the utility company of Prijedor clearing

15     the remains of the mosque.  Are you able to recognise anything and were

16     you aware that the public utility company of Prijedor was clearing the

17     sites of this destroyed mosque?

18        A.   No, really.  No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness was looking at page 10 in e-court of

20     this document.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. ZEC:  Can we turn the page.  This is page 11, depicting the

23     house of Rasim Dzafic.

24        Q.   Are you able to recognise the house?

25        A.   I cannot.  Because my sister, I mean, as the crow flies --

Page 30184

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you cannot recognise it.  That was

 2     the question.  You've answered that question.

 3             Please proceed.  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.  Can we have next page, and I believe we are

 6     now page 11 -- page 12.  And this is depicting the house of

 7     Zekerijah Kusturan.

 8        Q.   Can you recognise this house?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Next page, please.

11             MR. ZEC:  Again, depicting the house of Rasim Dzafic.

12        Q.   Are you able to recognise this?

13        A.   No.

14             MR. ZEC:  And I believe we have one more photograph at next page.

15     Or that was the end.

16        Q.   Ms. Karlica, only to now clarify the Donja Puharska and

17     Gornja Puharska.  So these are the two places.  The one, Donja Puharska,

18     was closer to the town, and Gornja Puharska was a bit further from the

19     town in same direction; correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   How far would you say is from Donja Puharska to Gornja Puharska?

22        A.   I could not really give a precise answer.

23             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, in evidence we have map P1 --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- what was your time estimate, Mr. Zec.

25             MR. ZEC:  45 minutes, Your Honour.

Page 30185

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  45 minutes.  You are far beyond that, isn't it.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And -- so would you please -- it was time for a

 4     break anyhow.  Would you please conclude.  I mean, if the witness says

 5     that she never observed the place after the destruction, then to go

 6     through all the details and to hear the no, no, no answers that is -- of

 7     course, not, there are other matters as well which may affect the

 8     efficiency of your cross-examination.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, the reason I went through the

10     photographs is the Defence objection on the admission of the file.  I was

11     hoping the witness can help us in the sense that she can recognise the

12     area and confirm --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. ZEC:  -- the information in there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  She was unable to do so and she made that

16     clear when she answered the question that she had never seen that place

17     after the destruction.

18             Let's move on.  If you could please try to conclude within the

19     next two or three minutes.

20             MR. ZEC:  I will try, Mr. President.  And if I only tender this

21     file into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The -- still a challenge to authenticity,

23     Mr. Stojanovic?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further details?

Page 30186

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, especially not these --

 2     after these questions were put to the witness and she could not recognise

 3     any of this or see herself in the context of Gornja Puharska.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The admission is denied, Mr. Zec.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. ZEC:

 8        Q.   Ms. Karlica, in paragraph 12 you say that it's well known that in

 9     mid-May 1992 there were over 2000 -- more precisely, 2.172 members of the

10     Kozarac -- members of the TO in Kozarac, and you referred to a military

11     expert in the trial of Aleskic and Cerkic in 2014.  First, did you know

12     this military expert that you referred to?

13        A.   No.

14             MR. ZEC:  So can we have quickly 65 ter 2559j.

15        Q.   So what we will be looking at is a 1991 census of Prijedor.

16             MR. ZEC:  We need page 4.  At page 4, we will see there is a --

17     Kozarac in line 36.  So we will need next page in B/C/S, following

18     line 36.

19        Q.   And it says that Kozarac in 1991 had 4.045 people in total, which

20     includes everyone, women, children, men, elderly, Serbs, Muslims, and the

21     number of Muslims was 3.740.  So do you agree that nearly two-thirds of

22     the Kozarac population could not be members of the TO and the figure you

23     cited in your statement, paragraph 12 of your statement, is an error;

24     right?

25        A.   That is not an error because Mr. Sadirlija stated that at the

Page 30187

 1     trial that was attended by representatives of our organisation because I

 2     could not attend personally.

 3             MR. ZEC:  I tender this census, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole of the ...

 5             MR. ZEC:  Four pages --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Four pages.

 7             MR. ZEC:  -- for Prijedor only.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Four pages for Prijedor only.

 9             Any objections?

10             Madam Registrar.

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Are the four pages uploaded as one document?

13             MR. ZEC:  They should be.  Yes, Mr. President.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2559j receives number P7029, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             Your Honours, nothing further.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Zec.

22             We'll take a break.

23             Would you have any questions after the break, Mr. Stojanovic?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then in that situation, we would already excuse the

Page 30188

 1     witness.

 2             Ms. Karlica, since the Defence has no further questions for you,

 3     this concludes your testimony in this court.  I would like to thank you

 4     very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered all

 5     the questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you

 6     by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at 12.30.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30189











11  Pages 30189-30190 redacted.  Private session.















Page 30191

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 30192

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Kalabic, I take it.

 5     Mr. Kalabic, before you give evidence the Rules require that you make a

 6     solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you

 7     to make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  RAJKO KALABIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kalabic.  Please be seated.

13             Mr. Kalabic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You find

14     him to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

15     Mr. Mladic.

16             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

19        Q.   Good day, sir.  Can you please state your full name for the

20     record.

21        A.   Good afternoon.  My name is Rajko Kalabic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  If we can please have document 1D01617 in e-court.

23        Q.   Sir, I would direct your attention to the left side of the

24     monitor and ask you if you could tell us whose signature is visible on

25     the first page of this document?

Page 30193

 1        A.   The signature on the first page of this document is mine.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could turn to the last page of the

 3     document.

 4        Q.   Sir, can you tell us whose signature appears here?

 5        A.   Again, my signature appears on this page.

 6        Q.   And does the date which is recorded herein accurately state the

 7     date that you signed this document?

 8        A.   Yes, the date reflects the date when I signed the document.  Yes.

 9        Q.   And, sir, subsequent to signing this statement, did you have

10     occasion to review the same in Serbian to check if everything is

11     accurately recorded therein?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to move to

13     the microphone.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I reviewed the document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please move a bit more to the

16     microphone or have the microphone adjusted so that it's closer to your

17     mouth.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  I would like to turn to page 3 in both

19     languages.

20        Q.   And I would like to look at paragraph number 6 with you, sir.

21     And I would ask you, sir, to please advise the Chamber of the correction

22     that you wish to make to this paragraph of your statement.

23        A.   Could this be zoomed in a little for my benefit so I can actually

24     see it better?

25        Q.   The part in question should be the fourth line from the bottom in

Page 30194

 1     the B/C/S.

 2        A.   Yes.  What I would like to correct here is the sentence reading:

 3             "They first informed me ..." And then "the police station in

 4     Kljuc ..."

 5             I would like to change this.  The sentence as I would like it to

 6     be corrected should read:

 7             "These forest workers informed first the police station in Kljuc

 8     and then me."

 9        Q.   And if we could look at paragraph 7 on the same page in English,

10     and it will be on the next page in the Serbian, I would ask you, sir, to

11     please advise of what correction is necessary in this page -- in this

12     paragraph?

13        A.   In this paragraph, in the sentence reading as follows:

14             "Six soldiers were killed and around 30 were wounded."

15             This should read:

16             "Around six soldiers were killed ..."

17             I didn't know the exact number.  I just knew that it was a close

18     approximation of the exact number.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And now paragraph 10, which is on the same page,

20     what correction is necessary that you would like to bring to our

21     attention in relation to this paragraph?

22        A.   In the sentence which reads:

23             "This thwarted all sorts of traffic in that direction."

24             The correction should be made in the following sense:

25             "The traffic in that direction was rendered more difficult by

Page 30195

 1     that."

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now apart from these corrections that we have

 3     gone through in court, do you stand by the rest of your statement as

 4     accurately and correctly setting forth your testimony?

 5        A.   Yes, I stand by everything in this statement.  I consider

 6     everything to be truthful and credible.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I -- I just have a question on this very last

 8     paragraph.

 9             Sir, does it mean, in fact, that traffic in the opposite

10     direction was safe, it was usable?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The traffic did take place but it

12     was much slower in that place because the road had been dug out.  Not

13     enough explosive had been placed in that spot, and it was not placed in

14     such a way that a passing car could activate it.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but what I'm interested in is in the opposite

16     direction.  Was traffic moving in the opposite direction in any manner

17     disturbed or wasn't it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In both directions, traffic was

19     disturbed because all the passing vehicles had to slow down and drive

20     over that spot that had been dug out very slowly.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we then to understand that, in fact, you would

22     like to change the statement to say traffic was disturbed on that road --

23     on that part of the road, irrespective of direction?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 30196

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was rendered more

 2     difficult or disturbed.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, sir.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, if I were to ask you questions based upon the same

 7     topics as contained in your statement today, would your answers to my

 8     questions be the same as is recorded in the statement?

 9        A.   Yes, my answers would be the same.

10        Q.   And, sir, given that you've taken a solemn declaration today,

11     would that mean that the answers, including what is recorded in your

12     statement, are truthful in nature?

13        A.   Yes, my answers are truthful.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement has the

15     next public exhibit.  There are no associated exhibits.

16             MR. TRALDI:  No objections, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Mr. Ivetic, before we decide, may I take it that the reference

19     to -- I think it was on paragraph 10 of the 92 ter motion about

20     Sanski Most, et cetera, that that's a mistake rather than the statement

21     being a mistake.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I would advise to carefully read a motion before

Page 30197

 1     it's signed.  You didn't sign it, so -- but having clarified this matter,

 2     Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1617 receives number D867, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             I have a short summary.

 8             Witness Rajko Kalabic was elected during the first multiparty

 9     elections in 1990 as a deputy of the chamber of municipalities of the

10     Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Kljuc municipality.  In Kljuc, the

11     SDS received over 50 per cent of the vote and the SDA about 20 per cent

12     of the vote.  Despite this, the key posts in the local government were

13     distributed equally among Serb and Muslim personnel.  The president of

14     the municipal assembly was a Serb.

15             As early as 1991, the Muslims formed the Donji Kraji Muslim

16     municipality of Kljuc.  Although they formed their own municipality, they

17     still went to work in Kljuc and received their salaries.  This was the

18     case until 27 May 1992, when Muslims failed to turn up for work.  That

19     same day, Deputy Police Commander Stojakovic was ambushed and killed at

20     Krasulje and several police were injured at the hands of the Muslims.

21     That same day the army was also under attack as several buses of unarmed

22     soldiers was attacked by men under the command of Omer Filipovic, a

23     Muslim.  The road was also mined between Laniste and Velagici.  A Serb

24     driver was hanged and killed by the roadside at Pudin Han.

25             This series of attacks sparked a revolt among the Serb

Page 30198

 1     population.  After these events, a unit of the VRS under the command of

 2     Colonel Galic came from the Kula barracks near Mrkonjic Grad.  Weapons

 3     were collected in the villages where Omer Filipovic had his paramilitary

 4     units.  During the fighting between the VRS and Muslim paramilitaries,

 5     the civilian Muslim population was invited over the radio to take shelter

 6     in the town of Kljuc, and after the end of combat the municipal

 7     authorities put them on buses and returned them to their home villages.

 8             This completes the summary.

 9        Q.   Sir, I would like to turn together to page 2 of your statement

10     and paragraph 1 of the same, which specifies that you were employed as

11     director of forest management at Sip before the war.  Could you please

12     tell us what was your professional occupation during the war?

13        A.   At that time, I was the manager of the 1st Company within the

14     Sipad-Kljuc enterprise.  I was then elected as a deputy in the Assembly

15     of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As a volunteer.  I was

16     not a professional politician, that is.  And then during the war, by

17     virtue of my position as a deputy in the Assembly of the Socialist

18     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which then became Republika Srpska, I was

19     a member of the Crisis Staff of the municipality, again as a volunteer,

20     not as a professional.

21        Q.   And, sir, the work which you performed within the Crisis Staff of

22     Kljuc, was that a full-time position?

23        A.   No.  It was a voluntary position.  It was a temporary engagement.

24     I had to attend meetings called by the president of the Crisis Staff or

25     the president of the municipality.  When such a meeting was called, if I

Page 30199

 1     could I would attend such a meeting, and if I am indisposed, then I would

 2     say so.  I would give the reasons why I couldn't attend.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to move to page 3 in both languages.

 4        Q.   And I would like to look at paragraph 5 of your statement.  Can

 5     you tell us, sir, whose proposal was it to split the executive positions

 6     in the local government 50/50 despite the overwhelming SDS victory in the

 7     votes?

 8        A.   The SDS leadership proposed the positions in Kljuc municipality

 9     should be distributed proportionally, 50 per cent for the SDS and 50

10     per cent for the SDA.  And that was how things were done.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what was the objective behind this proposal?

12        A.   The objective of such a proposal was to honour the SDS position

13     on the necessity to have a good co-operation between the parties in power

14     so as to ensure that the life in the municipality continued normally.  In

15     other words, every possibility of discrimination was avoided, or rather

16     there was an attempt made to avoid any possible form of discrimination in

17     that way.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to move now to page 4 in both

20     languages.

21        Q.   And I would like to focus on paragraph 14 of your statement.  Can

22     you please perhaps explain for us what you meant to convey -- what

23     information you meant to convey in this paragraph?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see paragraph 4, please, in the English.

25             MR. IVETIC:  14 it should be, Your Honours.

Page 30200

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I start?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You can answer the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this paragraph, I wanted to say

 4     that what happened on the 27th of May, 1992, was not an accident.

 5     Everything had been planned in advance.  The SDA leadership knew that a

 6     significant number of the Serbian soldiers were outside of Kljuc either

 7     in training in Zenica, which is 30 kilometres away from Kljuc, or were

 8     reassigned to some other units which were far away from Kljuc.  It was a

 9     suitable moment because the VRS army was not nearby to do what was done

10     on the 27th of May.

11             On the 27th of May, a police patrol was intercepted and the

12     deputy commander of the police was killed, and a convoy of young recruits

13     was attacked as they were returning from having served in the army and

14     they were on their way back to Serbia, Montenegro, and other parts of the

15     former Yugoslavia.  They had served as recruits in the JNA.  They had

16     done their service and they were on their way home.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. IVETIC:  And now I'd like to look at page 5 in English and 6

20     in the Serbian.

21        Q.   And I would like to focus on paragraph 22 of your statement.

22     Here you talk of how all police officers were asked to remain at their

23     jobs despite their ethnicity, but many Muslims were not prepared to

24     preserve the Republika Srpska.  Do you recall any examples of non-Serbs

25     that remained in the police in Kljuc municipality?

Page 30201

 1        A.   Amongst the police in the Kljuc municipality, there was a person

 2     in uniform, a Croat, who stayed on the force until the end of the war.

 3     And after the war, he continued working in the police.

 4        Q.   Do you recall any other non-Serbs that stayed in important

 5     positions and jobs within Kljuc municipality during the war?

 6        A.   Well, until the end of the war also a Croat stayed on as

 7     secretary in SIK Kljuc, which is a prominent position as well, and also a

 8     Muslim stayed on -- or, rather, several Muslims stayed on in SIK Kljuc,

 9     at the post office, and in some other companies.  However, some people

10     stayed until the end of the war, and a number of these people went

11     abroad, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, and so on.

12        Q.   Do you recall any non-Serbs in Kljuc municipality who were

13     serving in the VRS in any capacity?

14        A.   Well, I mean, there were several Muslims and Croats who served in

15     the army or were, rather, part of the Army of Republika Srpska until the

16     end of the war.  Some of them did stay, but a Croat held the most

17     prominent position.  He was a captain.  He stayed in the Army of

18     Republika Srpska until the end of the war, and after the war he remained

19     in Kljuc and he had this job.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could we try to be a bit more concrete.

21             For both categories, that is, those, you said, prominent

22     positions in -- I think you specifically mentioned secretary of SIK, post

23     office, you said:

24             "Some people stayed until the end war, and a number of these

25     people went abroad, Switzerland, Austria, Germany."

Page 30202

 1             Now, could you tell us how many stayed until the end of the war?

 2     Was it 1, was it 10, was it 50, was it a hundred?  How many stayed up

 3     until the end of the war of this category?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the end of the war, that is

 5     to say until the end of the war, there was this captain in the army,

 6     that's to say, he didn't go anywhere --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the secretary --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I split up the two categories.  I'm first

10     asking about the first category; that is, the category in which the

11     secretary of the SIK and the post office people were there, how many of

12     those stayed in their prominent positions until the end of the war?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until he retired, the secretary

14     from Sip stayed on.  During the war, he managed to have enough years for

15     retirement and then he retired and stayed in Kljuc, and then there were

16     other people who worked throughout the war, kept their jobs.  They did

17     not hold prominent positions, but they had certain office jobs.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But do I then well understand from those holding

19     prominent positions, that one remained but retired during the war and

20     that not any other prominent person remained in that position until the

21     end of the war?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the second category; that is, those serving in

24     the VRS.  You told us about a Croatian captain who stayed until the end

25     of the war and then even stayed after the war on the VRS.  How many

Page 30203

 1     others were staying there in the VRS throughout the war?  Non-Serbs.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact number, but

 3     a small number were there certainly throughout the war, in the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska.  I don't know the exact number.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know any other person by name or you say ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot -- I cannot remember

 7     any names now because it's really been a very long, long time ago.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So concretely we have only one person in a

 9     prominent position, secretary of the Sip, who retired during the war, so

10     therefore did not stay until the end of the war in his position, and

11     concretely you can tell us about one Croatian officer of Kljuc that

12     remained in the VRS throughout the war?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And I said that a policeman

14     also stayed on in the police force until the end of the war and continued

15     to work in the police after the war.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And who was that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that policeman very

18     well.  His last name was Modric.  I cannot remember his first name now.

19     Zdeno -- Zdenko, I've just remembered now.  Zdenko Modric.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  I would like to look at paragraph 20 on the

23     same page in English but on the prior page in the Serbian.

24        Q.   And --

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 30204

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I suspect it's the same problem that the back is

 2     having with e-court.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  E-court is not functioning at this moment.  We

 4     are waiting for ITSS to assist us.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that's also what my staff told me.

 6     Let me see if there is any questions that do not relate to the statement.

 7     Yes --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I can move to a question that does not need e-court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Otherwise you could perhaps quote from the

11     statement.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I could do that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:  That's easy enough.

15        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 20 of your statement, you talk about attempts

16     that were made to try to prevent incidents of plunder and crime.  Could

17     you tell us what specific measures were attempted by the municipal

18     authorities to try to prevent incidents of plunder and crime?

19        A.   The municipal authorities asked the police and army to protect

20     buildings, facilities in villages, and also the population in villages

21     where there were no war operations, and that was done in the villages

22     that were on the other side of Kljuc in relation to the villages where

23     there were war operations going on, and these villages are the following:

24     Dubocanin, Velecevo, Zgon, and Mehmedagici.  In these villages, both the

25     buildings and the population were protected.  At that point in time, the

Page 30205

 1     population was still there.

 2        Q.   And, sir, if you could help us for these villages that you have

 3     identified, what would have been the ethnicity of the inhabitants of

 4     those villages?

 5        A.   In these villages, the population was Muslim only except for

 6     Mehmedagici.  In Mehmedagici, about 10 per cent of the population was of

 7     a different ethnic background; Serb or Croat, that is.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I would like to ask you if you had any -- if

 9     you had the occasion to learn at any time of any killings of detained

10     Muslims that occurred 1st June 1992 in relation to the village of

11     Velagici.

12        A.   Yes.  I found out about that situation in the municipal building

13     in the office of the president of the municipality who was the president

14     of the Crisis Staff at the same time.

15             In the early evening hours, I was in the municipality building

16     and there were other people there too.  Among them, President Banjac was

17     there and Colonel Galic.  Colonel Galic asked President Banjac to make it

18     possible for him to have the director of the company that had buses and

19     transported passengers come to that office, and that did happen, and

20     Colonel Galic asked him to provide two buses and to send them to Velagici

21     to take over the detainees -- I mean, to have the detainees transported

22     on these buses to Manjaca.  The director of transport left, he sent two

23     buses, and half an hour later two bus drivers walked into the office and

24     stated that in Velagici they found people who had been killed.

25             Colonel Galic was very surprised.  He jumped up and he swore at

Page 30206

1     that moment.  So it was in that way and then that I found out that that

 2     had happened in Velagici.

 3        Q.   And did you hear or have knowledge of any other directions that

 4     Colonel Galic gave in respect to what had happened and any instructions

 5     for further measures?

 6        A.   Colonel Galic immediately ordered the arrest of the persons who

 7     had been guarding the school.  They were handed over to the prosecutor's

 8     office, the military prosecutor's office, I don't know what the name was

 9     then, and these people were tried for what they did in Velagici.

10        Q.   And subsequent to this, what information did the Crisis Staff

11     receive in follow-up as to these perpetrators?

12        A.   As for the arrested persons, the information we had was that

13     prosecution was under way and that things were taking their course.  And,

14     of course, I had no further information about that.

15        Q.   Sir, I thank you on behalf of General Mladic and my team for

16     answering my questions.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that finishes our direct examination.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

19             I suggest, Mr. Traldi, that we take a break first and that you

20     will then have the first half-hour of your cross-examination after the

21     break.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We would

24     like to see you back.  We'll not finish your -- to hear your evidence

25     today, but we have half an hour left after the break.  You may follow the

Page 30207

 1     usher.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We could see whether there is still some time

 7     remaining for the Court agenda.  I'd like to deal with -- no, let's way

 8     until we get a moment.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kalabic, you'll now be cross-examined by

11     Mr. Traldi.  You'll find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel

12     for the Prosecution.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Now, sir, you've previously testified as a Defence witness in the

19     Brdjanin and Karadzic cases here at the ICTY; right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   And you testified as a defence witness in the Lukic and Adamovic

22     case in the Bosnian state court; right?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.

24        Q.   And is it your evidence that you told the truth in those

25     testimonies?

Page 30208

 1        A.   I have already said that my evidence is true.

 2        Q.   I want to go now briefly through the positions you held during

 3     the war.  You were a member of the Bosnian assembly, as you say in your

 4     statement.  You were also a member of the Assembly of the Serbian

 5     Republic in Bosnia; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   And you were a member of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of

 8     Krajina; right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   You mentioned on direct examination that you were a member of the

11     Kljuc Crisis Staff.  You were also a member of the Kljuc War Presidency

12     which was formed on the 10th of July, 1992; right?

13        A.   The Crisis Staff is the same thing as the War Presidency, except

14     the name was changed.  And, yes, I was a member.

15        Q.   Now, members of the military, the VRS, would attend meetings of

16     that Crisis Staff; right?

17        A.   Sometimes but not always.

18        Q.   Well, let's ask about a couple of people specifically.  First,

19     you mentioned being at a meeting with Colonel Galic.  During the period

20     from the 27th of May to the 1st of June, Colonel Galic would attend

21     Crisis Staff meetings; right?

22        A.   From time to time, he did attend meetings.

23        Q.   Where was he based during that period?

24        A.   He was based in the Kula barracks, the municipality of

25     Mrkonjic Grad.

Page 30209

 1        Q.   Sorry, sir.  During those few days from the 27th of May to the

 2     1st of June, after he had come to Kljuc, where was he based?

 3        A.   Well, I would see him only in the office of the president of the

 4     municipality.  I did not see him elsewhere.  I don't know whether he had

 5     any particular headquarters in the municipality of Kljuc.

 6        Q.   Now, you would sometimes attend meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Well, once or perhaps two times.  I cannot remember exactly.

 9        Q.   And your recollection is that the president of Kljuc,

10     Jovo Banjac, was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff as president; right?

11        A.   Yes, he was a member of the Crisis Staff of the ARK.

12        Q.   And his duty as president of Kljuc and a member of the ARK

13     Crisis Staff, one of his duties was to inform the Kljuc Crisis Staff

14     about the ARK Crisis Staff's work and its decisions; right?

15        A.   That's the way it was supposed to be.  However, the president

16     very rarely attended these meetings.  Or, rather, to the best of my

17     knowledge.  Perhaps he attended meetings of the Crisis Staff just a few

18     times, not more than that.

19        Q.   So you do recall that it was his duty to inform members of the

20     Kljuc Crisis Staff of decisions passed by the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

21        A.   Well, he was supposed to provide information to all members of

22     the Crisis Staff, I mean, about the conclusions of the Crisis Staff of

23     the autonomous region.

24        Q.   And before the --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi --

Page 30210

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- one of the previous answers leaves a question

 3     open.

 4             You said, talking about Mr. Banjac, you said:

 5             "Perhaps he attended meetings of the Crisis Staff just a few

 6     times, not more than that."

 7             Now immediately before that, you were talking about his position

 8     as a member of the Crisis Staff of the ARK and as a member of the

 9     Crisis Staff of Kljuc.  When you said he attended meetings of the

10     Crisis Staff just a few times, did you refer to the ARK Crisis Staff, or

11     did you refer to the Kljuc Crisis Staff, or to both?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the Crisis Staff

13     of the autonomous region.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was the Crisis Staff he attended only a

15     few times.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Now, before the war you also sometimes attended the sessions of

19     the SDS Main Board in Sarajevo; right?

20        A.   Well, I wasn't a member of the SDS Main Board, and I cannot

21     remember whether I was present, perhaps once or twice, at a meeting of

22     the SDS Main Board.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 31813, page 64.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I bring to counsel's attention, e-court says that

25     this is under seal.  I don't know why it would be, but that's what the

Page 30211

 1     description says in e-court.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Without going into the reasons, I can say this

 3     is Mr. Kalabic's testimony in the Karadzic case given without protective

 4     measures but with some limited portions in private session.  I had

 5     checked beforehand and this wasn't one of them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic is -- we are thanking Mr. Ivetic

 7     for drawing the attention to it and apparently you have considered it

 8     thoroughly.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And I thank Mr. Ivetic for the reminder as well.

11        Q.   Now, you were asked here by Mr. Karadzic, beginning at line 6:

12             "Did you go to the sessions of the Main Board of the

13     Serbian Democratic Party in Sarajevo?"

14             And you answered:

15             "Seldom.  The president of the municipal board of the SDS usually

16     was there" -- sorry, "usually went there.  I was someone -- sometimes

17     there but it was not very frequently."

18             Do you stand by the testimony you gave in the Karadzic case that

19     you did sometimes attend sessions of the Main Board of the SDS in

20     Sarajevo?

21        A.   Can you show me the document?  I'd like to know what exactly I

22     stated.

23        Q.   Sir, this is your testimony in the Karadzic case.  The transcript

24     is only in English.  I'm asking you:  Do you stand by the sworn testimony

25     you gave just over a year ago that I've just read back to you?

Page 30212

 1        A.   Yes, I stand by the testimony I gave.

 2        Q.   And so you sometimes attended sessions of the Main Board of the

 3     SDS in Sarajevo and usually the president of the Kljuc Municipal Board of

 4     the SDS went to those sessions; right?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And the president of the Kljuc Municipal Board, who was that?

 7        A.   The president of the SDS Kljuc Municipal Board was Veljko Kondic.

 8        Q.   And he would report back to the Kljuc SDS about what had happened

 9     at those sessions; right?

10        A.   If he attended a session, he would briefly report back on what

11     had been concluded at such a session.

12        Q.   Now, I want to turn to your evidence -- well, I want to turn to

13     the topic of political developments before the war, and I want to start

14     in December 1991.  When you were in Sarajevo in December 1991, you saw a

15     copy of the instructions for the organisation of the Serbian people;

16     correct?

17        A.   I don't remember that I ever saw a copy of the instruction for

18     the organisation of the Serbian people.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31814, page 18.

20        Q.   And, sir, this will be your sworn testimony in the Brdjanin case.

21     Now, beginning at line 15, Mr. Brdjanin counsel, Mr. Ackerman, asked you:

22             "You have a document, sir, at tab 27 of your book.  The last

23     document in your book.  It's Exhibit P25.  I've only got it there so that

24     you can refresh your memory as to what it is.  It's the Variant A and B

25     document which you have seen.  And I'll ask you if you've seen it before

Page 30213

 1     I showed it to you yesterday."

 2             And you answered:

 3             "Yes, I saw this document in Sarajevo."

 4             So I'll ask you again:  Do you stand behind your sworn testimony

 5     in the Brdjanin trial as truthful and accurate?

 6        A.   My testimony was correct and truthful, but it was a long time ago

 7     so I can't remember all the things that I said.  Therefore, it would be

 8     good if I were presented with the things that you're asking me about on

 9     the screen in the Serbian language so as to jog my memory.  All the time

10     I'm seeing something in English on the screen.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And there is no B/C/S version, and that's the reason

12     why it's read out to you, and then it is interpreted by our interpreters,

13     and then you receive it in your own language.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  -- I believe the witness is talking about the

17     document, the Variant A and B document, which was described as

18     instructions by Mr. Traldi which is referred to as Variant A and B

19     document in this transcript.  He's asking to see that document so that he

20     can know which documents he's being asked if he saw.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to call it up.  Could we have P03038.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the number, Mr. Traldi?

23             MR. TRALDI:  03038.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 30214

 1        Q.   Now, seeing these instructions on the screen and having been

 2     reminded of your testimony in the Brdjanin case, does that refresh your

 3     recollection as to whether, in fact, you saw this document in Sarajevo in

 4     December 1991?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, I saw the document.

 6        Q.   And the document was then given to representatives of the SDS who

 7     brought these instructions back to their respective municipalities;

 8     right?

 9        A.   I don't know if they were all given it, but I know that the

10     president of the SDS, Veljko Kondic, was in charge of that.  So he was

11     the one who had it, not me.

12        Q.   So who gave Veljko Kondic a copy of this document to take back to

13     Kljuc?

14        A.   I can't remember.  However, I suppose it was done by the services

15     of -- administrative services of the party organs.  I didn't really

16     follow the goings on, who got it and who didn't.

17        Q.   And you said you saw it in Sarajevo.  Were you present when it

18     was given to him, if you remember?

19        A.   I don't remember.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Now, can the Prosecution please have MFI P7003.

22     As -- and this will be a shorthand record of the 4th Session of the RS

23     Assembly.

24        Q.   As it comes up, sir, you mentioned Mr. Kondic but clearly he

25     wasn't the only representative of the SDS who was given this to take back

Page 30215

 1     to their municipality.  You said you don't know if they were all given it

 2     but you know that many members of the SDS received this and took it back

 3     to their municipalities; right?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know who got it, whether many got it, how many got

 5     it.  I really don't know.  I didn't see it.  It was not my task to

 6     monitor those things.

 7        Q.   Well, this is the 4th Session of the RS Assembly, and I'll turn

 8     to it now.  It was also held while you were in the Sarajevo in

 9     December 1991.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 26 in the English, 55 in the

11     B/C/S.

12        Q.   We see here Vukic speaking.  This is Radislav Vukic, one of the

13     other political leaders in the Autonomous Region of the Krajina; right?

14        A.   I don't remember Radislav Vukic.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 27 in the English and 56 in the

16     B/C/S.

17        Q.   Mr. Vukic says at the end of his remarks:

18             "The Serbian people of Bosnian Krajina and Bosnia-Herzegovina as

19     a whole are part of the Serbian nation in Yugoslavia and as a constituent

20     nation they are not going to accept any decision on which state they are

21     going to live in without their consent, especially not this majoritarian

22     illegal decision made by the other two nations.  If the EC goes on with

23     its threat to recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state or

24     as part of a future Independent State of Croatia, or the Independent

25     State of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising

Page 30216

 1     and there will be massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been

 2     subsequently created, will disappear altogether.  Thank you."

 3             And the transcript records there was applause.

 4             Now, when Mr. Vukic is referring here to nations that have been

 5     subsequently created, I put to you he means Muslims; right?

 6        A.   First of all, I don't know Mr. Vukic.  I can't remember of

 7     anybody delivering such a speech; therefore, I can't make any inferences

 8     as to what they thought if they said what you say they did.

 9        Q.   What -- of the three nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croats,

10     the Muslims, the Serbs, was one of those three described by Serb leaders

11     as having been subsequently or recently created?

12        A.   I don't know who they meant if they spoke like this, which people

13     or peoples they had in mind.  I don't know.  I'm not in a position to

14     know that.

15        Q.   Well, sir, how old is the Serb nation in your view?

16        A.   I don't know.  I've never been interested in the issue at all.

17        Q.   And how long had a census category and one of the constituent

18     peoples in the former Yugoslavia?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer can only be arbitrary.  I

22     can't give you a correct answer to your question.  I'm in no position to

23     answer such questions of yours with any accuracy.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Let's see if you're in a position to answer they question.

Page 30217

 1     Mr. Vukic says a nation is going to disappear altogether in massive

 2     bloodshed if there is a declaration of independence and then people

 3     applaud.  People would not have applauded if he had -- or if they'd

 4     understood him to mean the Serbs were going to disappear; right?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I am going to object.  If counsel's going to refer

 7     to a document, counsel should cite to the document correctly, not giving

 8     a free-hand interpretation of what the document actually says.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please quote literally, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Sure.

11        Q.   "If the EC goes on with its threat to recognise

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state or as part of a future

13     Independent State of Croatia or the Independent State of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising and there will

15     be massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been subsequently

16     created will disappear altogether.  Thank you.  (Applause)."

17             So I put to you again, no one would have applauded if they

18     thought Mr. Vukic meant that the Serbs were going to disappear; right?

19        A.   I don't remember this kind of speech --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Mr. Mladic, you now two times spoke

21     aloud.  Now you are standing, which you're supposed not to do.  This is

22     the last warning.  If you want to consult with counsel, you can do so now

23     but at an inaudible volume level.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 30218

 1        Q.   Now, as a deputy in the assembly, part of your role, parallel to

 2     Mr. Kondic's, was to go back to Kljuc and report on what happened at the

 3     RS Assembly sessions; right?

 4        A.   No, the president of the SDS Municipal Board was in charge of

 5     that, not me.

 6        Q.   We'll see if I can refresh your recollection, but I'm going to

 7     have to do it tomorrow.  In the meantime, I'd put to you:  You, in fact,

 8     reported to the Kljuc SDS about what happened at this particular assembly

 9     session, didn't you?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I think that's a good place to break and pick up in

12     the morning, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Kalabic.  But

14     I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

15     in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, that is testimony

16     you've given today, or that is testimony still to be given, and we'd like

17     to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  You may follow the usher now.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

21     Tuesday, the 20th of January, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

22     courtroom, I.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day

25                           of January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.