1 Tuesday, 20 January 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise
12 a preliminary matter.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. And may we move into
14 private session, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 30220 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 And the witness may be escorted into the courtroom.
14 Meanwhile, I use the time to deal with a -- an item which is
15 still on my agenda; it's about Prosecution expert witnesses.
16 On the 22nd of December of last year, the Defence filed its
17 Rule 94 bis notice and objection to the expert report submitted by the
18 Prosecution as part of the reopening of its case.
19 The Defence requested leave to exceed the word limit.
20 Considering the number of experts dealt with in the filing, the Chamber
21 hereby grants leave.
22 The Prosecution responded on the 5th of January of this year.
23 The Chamber understands that the Defence does not challenge the expertise
24 of Ian Hanson and Tomas Parsons and that it does not object to their
25 expert reports.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: In light of this and having reviewed their CVs, the
3 Chamber considers that they may testify as experts.
4 The Defence wishes to cross-examine the two witnesses to clarify
5 aspects of their reports or expertise. Since the Prosecution is planning
6 to call these witnesses as part of the reopening of its case, they will
7 be available for cross-examination by the Defence.
8 In this respect, the Chamber notes that Parsons is to be recalled
9 as he has given evidence previously. The Chamber defers its decision on
10 admission into evidence of the reports for the witnesses until the time
11 of their respective testimonies.
12 The Chamber will deal with the Defence objections for the
13 remaining four proposed expert witnesses in separate decisions.
14 Good morning, Mr. Kalabic. Before we continue, I'd like to
15 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you
16 have given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony, that you will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Mr. Traldi
18 will now continue his cross-examination.
19 Mr. Traldi.
20 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning.
21 WITNESS: RAJKO KALABIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
1 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution please have P7003 MFI, again.
2 Q. And, sir, I'm going to continue briefly looking at the 4th
3 Session of the RS Assembly that we discussed yesterday. And as it comes
4 up, just as a reminder, it's dated the 21st of December, 1991.
5 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 43 in the English and 90
6 in the B/C/S.
7 Q. And we see at the bottom of the page in the English and the
8 middle of the page in the B/C/S, Professor Koljevic starts to speak.
9 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 44 in the English and 92 in the
11 Q. Professor Koljevic refers first to a fundamental lie, that it is
12 possible and desirable to live together. And then at the end of his
13 remarks, he says:
14 "Peace requires secure foundations. Peace can be built through
15 continuing pacification and separation, and not through a false
16 co-existence. That is precisely what we, as your representatives, have
17 been advocating with the idea of a tripartite Bosnia and Herzegovina from
18 the very start."
19 Now, do you recall Professor Koljevic informing the Assembly that
20 separation, and I'd put to you he meant separation among ethnic lines,
21 was what the Bosnian Serb leadership had been advocating from the start?
22 A. I can't remember Koljevic's speech. It was a really long time
23 ago in the distant past. I really can't remember what he was saying. I
24 don't remember what he said at that session.
25 Q. Is it your evidence that you do or don't recall that the Bosnian
1 Serb leadership did, in fact, take the position that there should be a
2 separation of the peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina along ethnic lines.
3 A. I don't remember that happening at that session.
4 Q. Do you remember it happening at any point?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Traldi, because we are -- I get a bit
6 confused. Your previous -- your first question was about - specifically
7 - about what Professor Koljevic said informing the Assembly, and we are
8 now slowly -- we should clearly distinguish between with what was said at
9 that time and what -- whether what was said is in accordance with the
10 policy pursued at the time by the leadership.
11 MR. TRALDI: I take your point, Mr. President. And I'll do it in
12 a few steps, if you don't mind.
13 Q. First, sir, do you recall at any point the Bosnian Serb
14 leadership taking the position that the peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 should be separated along ethnic lines?
16 A. I am trying to recall. I believe that such a position did
17 surface at one point. When all the negotiations fell through with regard
18 to the -- to Bosnia remain in Yugoslavia, the leadership did indeed take
19 such a position with regard to secession, e.g., how shall I put it, the
20 regionalisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the division of Bosnia into
21 canton. Each of the cantons would have a majority people. Each of the
22 peoples would have a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina to itself, that is.
23 I believe that it was very much along the lines of Cutileiro's plan.
24 Q. So you recall this happening, you say, when the negotiations fell
25 through. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that
1 you were describing events in late March 1992?
2 A. I don't know what you have in mind. What is it that I should try
3 and remember?
4 Q. When you say the negotiations fell through with regard to Bosnia
5 remaining in Yugoslavia and you refer to Cutileiro, I'd put to you you're
6 describing late March 1992; right?
7 A. The Serbs thought that Yugoslavia would continue. They thought
8 so in March, April, May, and June, so I really wouldn't be able to
9 pin-point a time the way you suggest I should.
10 Q. Well, I'll explore your evidence in that respect perhaps a little
11 bit more later. Before I move on from this question, though, the Trial
12 Chamber has received evidence that not just Mr. Koljevic on this occasion
13 but repeatedly at Bosnian Serb assembly sessions as early as 1991, like
14 in this instance, members of the Bosnian Serb leadership discussed the
15 separation of the peoples of Bosnia along ethnic lines. Is it really
16 your evidence that you don't remember that ever coming up?
17 A. The way individual discussions on that topic, but I don't
18 remember that such a decision was ever reached [as interpreted].
19 Q. All right.
20 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3771. And, Your Honour, for this one
21 we'll simply ensure that the document is still MFI'd, but all of these
22 remarks are part of the eventual excerpt that we seek to have admitted.
23 Q. Now, sir, as P3771 comes up, these are the minutes -- or these
24 will be the minutes of the 6th Meeting of the Executive Committee of the
25 SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc held two days later, the 23rd of December.
1 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 2 in both the English and
3 Q. And I'm going to direct your attention to the very end of
4 point 1.
5 MR. TRALDI: And perhaps we could rotate the B/C/S just for ease
6 of use.
7 Q. Just to the very end of point 1, we see your name twice. The
8 first time it reads:
9 "After a recess, Rajko Kalabic informed those present on the
10 issues considered in the second part of the Serbian Assembly
12 Now, first, those assembly proceedings, that refers to the
13 assembly two days earlier that we just looked at; right?
14 A. I did not understand your question at all, and I was listening
15 very carefully.
16 Q. This document reflects that on the 23rd of December, 1991 you
17 informed the Kljuc SDS about the issues considered in the second part of
18 the Serbian assembly proceedings, so I'd put to you that refers to the
19 session of the assembly held two days earlier. Yesterday you suggested
20 that you didn't think you had informed the Kljuc SDS about what happened
21 at that assembly session, and so I'd ask if these minutes refresh your
22 recollection as to whether you, in fact, did so.
23 A. It doesn't jog my memory at all. As I'm looking at this part of
24 the minutes that is in front of me, where it says "Rajko Kalabic informed
25 all the present ..." and so on and so forth, from this part of the
1 minutes, I don't see what was it that I informed the attendants about at
2 that session. I can't remember.
3 Q. Well, I'm asking you a very simple question for the moment. It
4 says that you informed them about what was discussed at the Serbian
5 assembly. That's the Serbian assembly held two days earlier, isn't it?
6 A. I don't understand whether that was the session that was dealt
7 with in the previous question. Is that the same session?
8 Q. The previous questions have referred to the session that was held
9 two days earlier. I'd put to you that's the session being referred to
10 here. Do you agree or disagree? And I'd appreciate a "yes" or "no"
12 A. I really can't remember. I can't remember what it was that I
13 informed the gathered people about.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there. That's about
15 content. When you informed those present at the local SDS meeting in
16 Kljuc about the Serbian assembly proceedings, was that the assembly that
17 took place two days before?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, but I can't remember any
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we didn't ask you to remember any further
21 details. Would there be any other assembly session that you would report
22 about on the 23rd of January other than the 21st of January assembly
23 meeting -- I should -- I missed -- I should have said "December." Could
24 you think of any other assembly meeting that you would report about on
25 the 23rd of December?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether any other
2 assembly meeting was held.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
4 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 1 of this document in both
6 Q. And I'm going to see if I have any better luck refreshing your
7 recollection as to what Veljko Kondic reported about. Here at the top of
8 item 1, it says:
9 "Veljko Kondic informed the meeting of the instructions for the
10 organisation and activities of the Serbian people in BH."
11 And that:
12 "All organs will be required to act in accordance with the
14 Now, that refers to the Variant A and B document we saw
15 yesterday; right?
16 A. I suppose so. However, I can't tell that from the minutes. But
17 I suppose that you're right.
18 Q. Now, in fact, you recall that Veljko Kondic spoke specifically
19 about Variant A; right?
20 A. Yes. Veljko Kondic briefly explained Variant A.
21 Q. And below that, we see Brane Vojvodic say:
22 "I can accept all Karadzic's proposals without seeing them."
23 And Kondic replies:
24 "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the instructions
25 are accepted in their entirety."
1 So the suggestions and tasks from the Variant A and B
2 instructions were accepted in their entirety by the Kljuc SDS; right?
3 A. I would like to see that part of the document that the Prosecutor
4 is talking about. It must be on the second page and I only have the
5 first page of the document, so I'm not in a position to see and to follow
6 what the Prosecutor is saying.
7 MR. TRALDI: I think if we scroll maybe to the very top of the
8 second page.
9 Q. The last name I see here is Jovanka Cvijic, and I see that's two
10 lines above what we are discussing in the ...
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The words spoken by Brane Vojvodic was, I
12 suppose, on the last line of the previous page.
13 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour.
14 Q. Is that not -- do you see now the text we were looking at or the
15 text we were discussing?
16 A. Yes, I can see that part of the text. Brane Vojvodic shared his
17 opinion and no vote was taken. Staff members were just briefed and they
18 were not asked to vote either for or against.
19 Q. But as I put to you, the instructions were, in fact, accepted in
20 their entirety, right, by the Kljuc SDS? Yes or no.
21 A. The Kljuc SDS did not consider the instructions in their
22 entirety. Only Variant A was presented to its members. Nobody informed
23 anybody about Variant B because that variant, Variant B, did not refer to
24 Kljuc at all.
25 Q. And I appreciate your precision but I think you're still not
1 quite answering the question. Was Variant A accepted and implemented in
2 Kljuc by the Municipal Board at this time? Yes or no.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: In it's entirety.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. In it's entirety, as reflected by Mr. Kondic's statement.
6 A. Variant A referred to those municipalities where the SDS is --
7 Q. Sir --
8 A. -- was in power --
9 Q. Sir --
10 A. -- and in Kljuc --
11 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you which municipalities were referred to by
12 which variant. What I'm asking you is, as Veljko Kondic says here,
13 Variant A and suggestions and tasks included in it were accepted in their
14 entirety by the Kljuc SDS at this time. That's correct, isn't it? Yes
15 or no.
16 A. I cannot answer just with a yes or a no because it does not
17 reflect the true picture of what had been happening. If you allow me, I
18 would like to explain briefly.
19 Q. I'd be very grateful, sir, if, before explaining, you gave an
20 answer as to whether the Kljuc SDS accepted Variant A of the instructions
21 at this time.
22 A. Variant A, the SDS had no need to accept that, because this
23 variant explained the performance of power over there where it already
24 existed. So it was just copied, the method of exercising power in those
25 municipalities where somebody was already in power, so nothing was
1 invented there. And then, according to that variant, work would
2 continue. Variant B --
3 Q. Okay. Sir --
4 A. -- was not the subject of --
5 Q. -- you've, again, you're describing the mechanics of the
6 variants, and while it's interesting, it's not what I'd asked you about.
7 As to the implementation of Variant A, just for instance, we see
8 below Mr. Kondic's statement that all suggestions and tasks are accepted
9 in their entirety, that a Crisis Staff is formed. That's one of the
10 tasks set out in Variant A of the instructions; right? Yes or no.
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. We see a few lines below it that someone is appointed to be
13 responsible for co-operation with the SDA. Variant A of the instructions
14 also says somebody should be appointed to do that; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So when you say the SDS had no need to accept that a few lines
17 earlier, in fact what happened, as we see on this page, immediately after
18 the text to which I had directed your attention, the SDS implementing
19 instructions contained in Variant A. That's the truth, isn't it?
20 A. Well, the SDS co-operated with the SDA even before this meeting.
21 Immediately after the elections and throughout, they co-operated with the
22 SDA. So that is something that was already underway. It was just being
24 Q. I --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please focus on the questions. The
1 instructions were to appoint someone, that's what happens, and no one
2 suggested - not Mr. Traldi, not anyone else - that there had been no
3 co-operation whatsoever. Mr. Traldi focuses on the implementation of, in
4 this example, just this instruction. Would you please stick to the
5 question rather than to repeatedly give context which, apparently, you
6 consider more relevant. It's Mr. Traldi who asks the questions.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm done with this document. Could we
9 have 65 ter 31814, page 73.
10 Q. And, sir, just before closing the topic of Variant A and B, we
11 discussed yesterday the dissemination of those instructions through SDS
12 representatives, and in that context I want to look at one part of your
13 testimony in the Brdjanin case, which is now on our screens on the left.
14 Now, you were asked:
15 "You told us that you got," and this is beginning at line 22
16 here, "you saw a copy of the instructions for the organisation of the
17 Serbian people in Sarajevo?"
18 You responded:
19 "Yes, I did say that I saw this instruction in Sarajevo."
20 And you were asked:
21 "It was given, was it not, to representatives in the assembly
22 to ..."
23 MR. TRALDI: And then we'll turn the page.
24 Q. "... to take back to their own municipalities?"
25 And you said:
1 "No, it wasn't given to representatives in the assembly. It was
2 given to representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party, and they were
3 the ones who brought these instructions to their respective
5 Do you stand behind this portion of your testimony in the
6 Brdjanin case as truthful and accurate?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, a few days after the meeting we just looked at,
9 Kljuc municipality joined the Autonomous Region of Krajina; right?
10 A. A few days after that, the municipality of Kljuc carried out a
11 change of name of the region. Beforehand, it was called the Community of
12 Municipalities of Banja Luka, and at that moment when this was done, this
13 community --
14 Q. Sir --
15 A. -- got the name of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
16 Q. Sir, I'd suggest to you that, in fact, that name change took
17 place in September of 1991. What I'm putting to you is that in late
18 December 1991, three days after the meeting we just looked at on the 23rd
19 of December, Kljuc decided to accede or decided on its accession to the
20 autonomous region. That's true, right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 02996.
24 Q. Now, this is a decision by the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, dated
25 the 16th of January, 1992, signed by Jovo Banjac. Directing your
1 attention to the end of the preamble, we read:
2 "The Kljuc Municipal Assembly, at its 10th Session held on 26th
3 December, 1991, adopted the following decision on the accession of Kljuc
4 municipality to the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina."
5 So, in fact, on the 26th of December, 1991 Kljuc did decide on
6 its accession to the Bosnian Krajina, to the ARK; right?
7 A. There is an explanation in paragraph number 1. It says here
9 "The earlier adopted decision on the accession of Kljuc
10 municipality to the Banja Luka Community of Municipalities is hereby
11 confirmed and a decision adopted for Kljuc municipality to accede to the
12 Regional Community of Bosnian Krajina, now the Autonomous Region of
13 Bosnian Krajina."
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have just finished the
15 paragraph and we have not interpreted what the witness said very fast
16 after that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you said after you had
18 read paragraph 1 of this decision, because you were speaking so speedily
19 that the interpreters could not follow you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is what paragraph 1 says:
21 "The earlier adopted decision on the accession of Kljuc
22 municipality to the Banja Luka Community of Municipalities is hereby
23 confirmed and a decision adopted for Kljuc municipality to ..."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What did you add? Last time when you read
25 this you added some comment or whatever. What did you then say?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that Community of
2 Municipalities of Banja Luka from that time would be called the
3 Autonomous Region of Krajina.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. The text seems to be that there was
5 an earlier decision which was confirmed and that now a new decision was
7 Let's -- unless there is any specific issue about it, Mr. Traldi,
8 let's move on.
9 MR. TRALDI: I will, Your Honours. I'd just tender the document
10 before doing so.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2996 receives number P7030, Your
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Now, sir, in February 1992 an engineering unit of the JNA was
17 transferred from Knin to Kljuc municipality; right?
18 A. Yes. That unit was transferred to the municipality of Kljuc.
19 Q. And it was located in a commercial facility owned by Sipad Kljuc;
20 is that right?
21 A. No, it was not in Kljuc. Sipad is a complex company; inter alia,
22 it included forestry. Forestry Sumarsva had a unit of their own in a
23 forest in the direction of Bosanski Petrovac. That work organisation was
24 far away from the seat of the municipality of Kljuc. It was 20
25 kilometres away, and that's where this engineering unit was located.
1 Q. That was in the area of Laniste in the municipality of Kljuc;
3 A. Yes. It was in the area of Laniste. Laniste belonged to the
4 municipality of Kljuc, and it was at the border with the municipality of
5 Petrovac; Bosanski Petrovac, that is.
6 Q. And in May 1992 when the transformation of the military took
7 place, that unit became part of the VRS; right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Staying with February 1992, you attended a meeting in Sarajevo in
10 February 1992 and you stayed at the Holiday Inn; right?
11 A. I cannot remember. I mean, staying at the Holiday Inn. I
12 think -- I mean, I did stay there once. Once. I don't know what month
13 that was when I stayed at the Holiday Inn hotel. Every other time I went
14 to Sarajevo, I stayed at a private apartment in Ciglane, which is a part
15 of Sarajevo.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 07102, page 6 in the English and
18 page 8 in the B/C/S. I know we don't have the right page on the screen
19 yet. It's page 6 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S.
20 Q. Now, we see R. Kalabic at the top. We see arrival, the 14th of
21 February; departure, the 15th of February. Does that refresh your
22 recollection as to the occasion that you stayed at the Holiday Inn while
23 you were in Sarajevo?
24 A. I cannot see the guest's signature here. If I stayed at this
25 hotel, I would have signed this bill, but I don't see my signature here.
1 Q. And if -- if an organisation had been paying the bills for a
2 number of people who stayed there together, you wouldn't necessarily have
3 had to sign yourself, would you?
4 A. I don't know about that. But this organisation just provided, I
5 mean, a list of people who were supposed to come. They did not check who
6 it was that had come and who had not come. How the payments were made, I
7 really cannot say.
8 Q. And -- I -- we both used the word "organisation" but we're
9 talking about the SDS; right?
10 A. The SDS provided a list of persons who were supposed to attend
11 the meeting. Now, whether each and every one of these persons did attend
12 and did spend the night there, I don't know. One cannot see that on the
13 basis of this bill.
14 Q. Okay. Let's set aside what you can see on the basis of this
15 bill. Do you recall whether you yourself attended a meeting in the
16 Holiday Inn on the 14th and 15th of February, 1992?
17 A. I really cannot remember whether I was there or not. I've been
18 trying, but I cannot.
19 Q. All right. I'll just put to you briefly: The Chamber has
20 received evidence that, among other things, Radovan Karadzic activated
21 the second level of the Variant A and B instructions at that meeting --
22 MR. TRALDI: P3774.
23 Q. -- and it's the Prosecution's position that you then briefed the
24 Kljuc SDS about what had happened at the meeting. Do you recall either
25 of those things having happened?
1 A. I do not recall. But if there is a document, I would like to
2 have it on the screen so that it could jog my memory.
3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I am going to move on, but I'd ask
4 that this be marked for identification and we'll make a selection from
5 the receipts.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a number for this
7 series of documents.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7102 receives number P7031, Your
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI: Now, can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 03011.
13 Q. And, sir, as it comes up, these will be the minutes from the
14 8th Session of the Kljuc Municipal Board dated the 29th of April, 1992.
15 So we're moving forward in time. By this point, the end of April, Serbs
16 controlled the important positions in Kljuc and the power in Kljuc was
17 really in Serb hands; right?
18 A. I don't know what the Serbs had under their control, but they did
19 share power with the SDA as we have stated previously; in the statement,
20 that is.
21 Q. Okay. We see at point 2, current issues. Number 1,
22 Veljko Kondic speaks. And below that, Vinko Kondic speaks. And
23 Vinko Kondic says in the middle of the paragraph --
24 MR. TRALDI: And I'm told we should turn to the next page in the
1 Q. And Vinko Kondic, in the middle of the paragraph of his
2 remarks --
3 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, if I could have just one moment. Okay.
4 I'm told it's at the top of the page in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And in the middle of the paragraph, he says:
6 "Serbs are the majority population in Kljuc. We control all the
7 important positions."
8 Now that is, in fact, the truth as of the 29th of April, 1992;
10 A. Well, I wouldn't agree with his statement, and I cannot find that
11 here on the top of this page, and I cannot read it myself.
12 Q. Well --
13 JUDGE ORIE: It was read to you literally, Witness.
14 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2 in the English now.
15 Q. Veljko Kondic this time is speaking, and he says:
16 "I take as my starting point the situation in Kljuc as it really
17 is. The power in Kljuc is really in the hands of Serbs."
18 That, too, is the truth of the situation as of 29 April 1992;
20 A. That is his statement, but I cannot confirm that.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3011 receives number P7032, Your
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Now, a few days after this, in fact, the Bosnian Serb authorities
4 in Kljuc did take over power on the 7th of May; right?
5 A. Well, no, they did not take over power. They had no one to take
6 it from because they themselves were in power together with the SDA. It
7 was the Serbs and the Muslims who were in power, and it's not that they
8 had to take power over from someone else. If they had taken over power
9 from the Muslims, then I would say that, yes, that would be the case, but
10 no, that was not true. They were both in power as stated in the
11 statement, and the statement has been admitted.
12 On the 7th of May on the municipality building, the Yugoslav flag
13 was replaced with a flag of Republika Srpska. That was done. And from
14 that moment onwards, this question has been raised, power has been taken
15 over. So in Bosnia-Herzegovina, everybody placed their own flags and
16 insignia wherever they lived and worked. That was the case throughout
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only Kljuc. Kljuc was the last place where the
18 flag of Yugoslavia was taken down from the municipality building and
19 where the flag of Republika Srpska was put up.
20 Q. One of the other things that happened on that day was the police
21 insignia was changed, right, to the new Republika Srpska police insignia?
22 A. Both police and military insignia were changed. The five-pointed
23 red star --
24 Q. Sir --
25 A. -- that was worn until then --
1 Q. Sir --
2 A. -- was replaced --
3 Q. -- I'm sorry to interrupt. But I'm not asking you to describe
4 the JNA insignia. I'm asking you on the 7th of May the insignia on
5 police uniforms in Kljuc was changed to the new Republika Srpska police
6 insignia; right?
7 MR. IVETIC: Asked and answered, line 22.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. They were
10 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, my microphone did not activate as I
11 pushed it. The question was asked, the question was answered. You
12 stopped the witness when he'd started explaining things you did not ask.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI: Fair enough, Mr. President.
15 Q. As to the police in Kljuc, the Kljuc police was subordinated to
16 the CSB in Banja Luka; right?
17 A. Yes, that's right. That's the way it was according to hierarchy.
18 Q. Now before the conflict began, the highest-ranking Muslim police
19 officer in Kljuc was the SJB commander Atif Dzafic; right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about some Muslims and Croats
22 who -- a small number who you said stayed in their jobs. What happened
23 to Mr. Dzafic was that he was arrested a few weeks after this, taken to
24 the Sanica school gym, then the Nikola Mackic school, and then the
25 Sitnica school, and then he and a large number of other people were made
1 to walk -- other Muslims to walk from Sitnica to Manjaca camp. Were you
2 also aware of that?
3 A. No, I didn't know about that.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I am about to turn to a new topic. I
5 know we're a minute or two early but I'd suggest it's a good time for the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break now.
8 Witness, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may
9 now follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 If I could just raise one very quick matter. I know we have a
17 number of housekeeping matters pending which we will attend to given
18 opportunities over the next few days, but with respect to one that was on
19 the list regarding P6889, a document that was MFI'd, the Defence and the
20 Prosecution will be in discussion about that. So I just wanted to alert
21 the Court to the fact that there may be further developments so that the
22 Court didn't unilaterally undertake any action on that before we
23 concluded our efforts.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check whether it's somewhere on our list
1 already. Perhaps P6689 -- yup, P6889.
2 Mr. Traldi, if you're ready, you may proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Can we have 65 ter 31850. And I think we only need one version,
5 so we could zoom in a bit.
6 Q. Now, sir, we're looking here at an aerial image of Kljuc town
7 taken after the war. Do you see the municipality building on this image?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask that the usher assist you in making
10 several markings, and I'm going to ask that you wait for me to instruct
11 you what to mark and then we'll go one by one.
12 Can you first circle the municipality building.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And that was where the Crisis Staff had its meetings; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you -- Krizni Stab inside that circle to identify the
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Okay. Do you see the Nikola Mackic school on this image?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Could you circle that as well, please.
22 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, Your Honours, we're being told we'll need a
23 moment for the court reporter.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll just take our time. I noticed ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I saw that the witness marked the school
1 already but the question for him to mark the school is not on the record
2 yet. Could you please repeat that question and then we take it that what
3 the witness marked is the school but perhaps you'll ask him to add some
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The previous one --
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- about KS is not recorded properly.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. And, sir, just solely to complete the transcript --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, both.
13 Q. To complete the transcript, you've written a KS on the building
14 that you circled for Krizni Stab, that's the municipality building, and
15 you've circled another building, which is the Nikola Mackic school; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Can I ask you to write simply an S for school inside the circle
19 on the Nikola Mackic school.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And do you see the Kljuc SJB building? The building that has the
22 Kljuc SJB in 1992 on this image.
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. I appreciate you waiting. Could you circle that as well, please.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And can you mark an SJB there.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Now, we see --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: For my clarity, is it the brown building or is it
5 the green building? The brown building [Microphone not activated].
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Green building.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Now, do you see on this image where the 17th Brigade of the VRS
10 was headquartered once it was created?
11 A. I'm not aware of the fact that the 17th Brigade was deployed in
12 the city located there.
13 Q. Then I won't ask you to mark anything for that. One more
14 question on this image. We see a mosque just below the SJB building.
15 That was built only after the war; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this image as marked by the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31850, as marked by the witness,
22 receives number P7033, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to turn to two meetings you attended a few
1 days after the take-over of Kljuc.
2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P2867.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated].
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you want to consult with counsel,
5 take off your earphones and speak at such a volume that it's inaudible
6 for other persons in this courtroom.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Now, these are the minutes of a meeting held by the Command of
9 the 1st Partizan Brigade with presidents of municipalities in the zone of
10 responsibility of the division, and it's dated the 14th of May, 1992. We
11 see here at number 11, below Colonel Galic, Colonel Basara, and others
12 that you attended this meeting; right?
13 A. Yes, I can see that.
14 Q. And this meeting was held in Kljuc; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 3 in both languages.
17 Q. We see the president of Mrkonjic Grad, Mr. Malidza, presented
18 conclusions from the meeting held in Banja Luka, and it refers to
19 renaming of the army. And then below that, it reads:
20 "The strategic goals formulated at the meeting in Banja Luka were
21 presented," and it refers to six, the first of which is state separation
22 of the three national communities.
23 Now, you know these to be consistent with the six strategic
24 objectives formulated at the 16th Assembly in Banja Luka two days
25 earlier; right?
1 A. I am not aware of the fact that that was defined in Banja Luka,
2 but the bullet points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 were defined as it is presented in
4 Q. And those were the strategic objectives of the Serb people;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And they had been first articulated, it says, at the meeting in
8 Banja Luka here. That refers to the 16th Assembly, the 16th Session of
9 the Bosnian Serb Assembly; right?
10 A. I can't remember which assembly meeting it was, but that was what
11 happened at an assembly meeting. Yes.
12 Q. And what we see here, I won't insist on the number, but what we
13 see here is the local military and political authorities meeting and,
14 among other things, discussing the implementation of the decisions and
15 goals reached at the republic level; right?
16 A. At that meeting, people were informed about the objectives. I
17 don't know who said what and how much people spoke, at what length. I
18 can't remember.
19 Q. We saw only 11 names listed at the beginning. Do you recall
20 about how many people attended this meeting?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. All right. Let's move on then to P3747. Now, these are
23 meetings -- these are minutes, rather, of a meeting of the Kljuc
24 Crisis Staff held on the 13th and 14th of May, 1992, and we see at the
25 top that you were absent on the 13th. I want to direct your attention to
1 a couple of specific points.
2 MR. TRALDI: First, if we could have page 2 in both languages.
3 Q. We see item 2, and it says you and Jovo Banjac advised the
4 members of the Crisis Staff of the positions on the security situation in
5 Kljuc municipality in connection with the decisions and reports from a
6 session of the Serbian Republic of BH Assembly. Now, you passed on to
7 the Kljuc Crisis Staff, among other things, the strategic objectives that
8 you'd heard discussed at the meeting we just looked at; right?
9 A. I don't remember that I attended that meeting at all in the first
10 place, because on the 14th, which is -- what it says here, that I was
11 there, I believe that I was at another meeting. There is a document to
12 that effect. Maybe you should look for it and you would see that the two
13 meetings coincided. I couldn't be in two places at the same time. I
14 really can't remember that I took the floor at this particular meeting
15 because, according to me, I never attended it in the first place.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would only ask if counsel is going
17 to ask about the meeting that we just looked at, that they specify.
18 Because the questions in relation to the prior document talked about two
19 meetings. So by not differentiating between the two, we'd have an
20 unclear record as to which one the witness is being asked about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that we had a meeting with the persons from
22 the various municipalities where Mr. Galic was present, that was one
23 meeting; and then the other one is the assembly meeting which was -- took
24 place in two days, the 13th and the 14th. If I understand well --
25 MR. TRALDI: It might be best if I re-ask the question and
1 clearly distinguish -- and I'm happy to do that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. So, sir, what we just saw is these strategic objectives I had put
5 to you were set out on the 12th. On the 14th, we just saw you attended a
6 meeting with Colonel Galic and others, and at that meeting the strategic
7 objectives were discussed with leaders from a variety of different
8 municipalities, and what I am putting to you is that at this meeting you
9 and Mr. Banjac also relayed the strategic objectives to the Kljuc
10 Crisis Staff, this meeting on the 14th also held in Kljuc. That's the
11 truth, isn't it?
12 A. I believe that this is not the truth. I simply did not attend
13 that meeting.
14 Q. The records -- well, let me ask a couple of follow-up questions.
15 You attended Crisis Staff meetings regularly; right?
16 A. It says here that I was absent from the Crisis Staff meeting on
17 the 13th, which means that I did not attend those meetings regularly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, being absent at one moment doesn't say
19 anything about regular attending meetings, Witness, so could you please
20 refrain from conclusions and rather stick to facts.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Sir, what I'm putting to you is, and I'll do it in a quick and
24 simple way, everybody at the Crisis Staff knew who you were. Relaying
25 conclusions from the assembly was part of your job as an assembly member.
1 These minutes are accurate and you are, at the moment, trying to minimise
2 your involvement in the dissemination of these strategic objectives from
3 the Bosnian Serb leadership to the Bosnian Serb leadership in Kljuc. Do
4 you have any comment on that?
5 A. No comment.
6 Q. All right. Then I'm going to turn to May 27th.
7 MR. TRALDI: And I'm done with this document.
8 Q. In paragraph 17 --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. TRALDI: Yes?
11 JUDGE ORIE: I still would have a question for the witness.
12 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier you have seen minutes of a meeting which
14 took place on the 13th and 14th of May; that's how it is reported. It
15 specifically says that you were not present on the 13th, which again
16 suggests that you were present at the 14th because otherwise it would
17 have said that you were not present on the 13th and the 14th.
18 Now you, in one of your answers, you suggested that you would not
19 have attended the meeting, and I'm now focusing on the 14th of May,
20 because you remember that you had another meeting. Could you tell us
21 what that other meeting would have been?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the meeting and
23 what meeting it was, but I know that there was certainly a meeting on
24 the 14th and I know that I attended it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have looked at another meeting on
1 the 14th; that was the meeting with the leaders of the municipalities
2 together with General Galic. Did you refer to that meeting or did you
3 refer to another meeting?
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I might assist. That's P2867 is the
5 document --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's the meeting you're referring to. Yes. Now
8 we just had a look at the minutes of that meeting which indicates --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the meeting.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the minutes of that meeting says that it
11 was, I think, finished at 3.00 in the afternoon or at least shortly after
12 lunchtime and that the other meeting started at 6.00. We looked at the
13 minutes of those as well. So I'm just putting to you, and whether you
14 have any comment, that a meeting in the early afternoon would not prevent
15 you from being present later that day in a meeting on that same 14th of
16 April with the Crisis Staff of the Kljuc municipality. And I'm asking
17 you for comment.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If meetings were held at different
19 times, and if I attended that particular meeting, then my task would have
20 been to brief the Crisis Staff on the positions of the Assembly of the
21 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I really can't remember whether
22 I attended that meeting or not but this is how things would have
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Sir, I am going to turn now to the end of May. In paragraph 17
3 of your statement, you mention that a VRS unit arrived in Kljuc on the
4 27th of May from the Kula barracks and that the unit was under the
5 command of then-Colonel Galic. And that was a unit of the
6 30th Partizan Division of the VRS; right?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Now, prior to the 27th of May, for several days the Kljuc
9 Secretariat for National Defence had been mobilising people into the
10 30th Division; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the decision of mobilisation that the Kljuc Secretariat for
13 National Defence was implementing had been reached by the leadership of
14 the Republika Srpska; right?
15 A. Yes. Mobilisation did take place based on the decisions made by
16 the competent authority of Republika Srpska, from the top leadership of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 Q. Okay. Once this VRS unit got into Kljuc, it set up checkpoints
19 on the roads into Kljuc; right?
20 A. Yes. After the 27th of May, check-points were established at
21 certain places around Kljuc.
22 Q. Colonel Galic personally remained in Kljuc for the next several
23 days; right?
24 A. I saw Colonel Galic only in the office of the president of the
25 municipality. As for where he was when he was not in that office, I
1 really don't know.
2 Q. Well, you said he came on the 27th. You've said you were also in
3 a meeting with him on June 1st. Do you know him to have left Kljuc in
4 the interim?
5 A. He left the office of the president of the municipality. That I
6 know. But I certainly don't know whether he left Kljuc because I wasn't
7 following him around.
8 Q. Well, he and other VRS officers attended meetings that the
9 Crisis Staff held during this period of several days; right?
10 A. Well, on the 27th and for another day or two Colonel Galic was
11 present. As for other meetings, I can't recall, I mean, who was present
12 after that.
13 Q. All right. I want to look now at some of the -- at some more of
14 the specific actions that he and his unit took. In paragraph 18 of your
15 statement, you mentioned that after the attacks on Serb police and
16 soldiers in Kljuc on the 27th of May, weapons were collected in
17 Pudin Han, Velagici, Krasulje, Biljani, Sanica, and Kamicak. These
18 weapons were collected by Colonel Galic's VRS unit; right?
19 A. Yes, it was the army that collected them.
20 Q. And that unit also during this time shelled Pudin Han,
21 inter alia, destroying the mosque there; right?
22 A. At one moment, yes. Pudin Han was shelled. But who it was that
23 destroyed the mosque, I really have no information about that.
24 Q. While Colonel Galic was in Kljuc, he informed the Crisis Staff
25 that he was ordering the creation of a town defence command, and he
1 appointed a local reserve officer, Marko Adamovic, as its commander;
2 radio it?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt.
5 Sir, you've just said you don't know who destroyed the mosque.
6 Do you know who shelled Pudin Han?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Republika Srpska
8 shelled it. It was mortars of a smaller calibre. Just a few of these
9 shells, I mean.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 You may proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI: Can we please have P3758.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, could the witness
14 explain to us how he knew that it was just a few shells and what their
15 approximate number was?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three or four shells. The firing
17 of shells could be heard in Kljuc.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you say three or four shells were fired at Kljuc.
19 Could -- were shells fired at Pudin Han and you could hear that from
20 Kljuc, and that's the basis for your observation.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Sir, before I go through this document, just to be fair to you,
24 I'm going to put to you that, in fact, there was -- it's the
25 Prosecution's position that, in fact, there was massive shelling of
1 Pudin Han and large-scale destruction inflicted. Now, you couldn't see
2 the village yourself, could you?
3 A. The shelling was really the way I said. As for more significant
4 destruction, that happened later when weapons were being taken from
5 people who were organised in a paramilitary territorial defence, the
6 Muslim paramilitary territorial defence.
7 Q. So you're suggesting that the destruction of Pudin Han occurred
8 during a disarmament operation and not during the shelling that preceded
9 it, just so I understand your evidence; is that right?
10 A. No, Pudin Han was not destroyed. It was not destroyed. After an
11 intervention by Republika Srpska, some houses were set on fire and that
12 was it at that moment.
13 Q. All right. This is -- now, this is the book of minutes from
14 sessions of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff --
15 MR. TRALDI: And I'll leave that topic for the moment.
16 Q. Now, the purpose of a book like this is to record and memorialise
17 the discussions and the conclusions at Crisis Staff sessions; right?
18 A. This is the first time I see this book and that I see it written
19 this way. I assume that this is a compilation of minutes from sessions
20 of the Crisis Staff.
21 Q. And the purpose of the minutes is, as I stated, to record and
22 memorialise the discussions and conclusions at the Crisis Staff sessions;
24 A. Well, minutes were kept at each and every meeting.
25 Q. Sir, I don't think you've quite answered my question, and I'm
1 afraid I'm going to insist. The purpose of the minutes is to record and
2 memorialise the discussions and the conclusions that occur at those
3 meetings; right?
4 A. Well, I don't know whether that's the case, but I know that
5 minutes were kept at each and every session.
6 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 5 in the English and page 8
7 in the B/C/S.
8 Q. We're seeing here the minutes on the 29th of May, 1992, and it's
9 recorded that the Crisis Staff is in continuous session and is following
10 events in the area of the municipality since combat operations are
11 ongoing and reports from the field are arriving constantly. I'm going to
12 ask you several very specific questions about these minutes.
13 First, was it Colonel Galic personally or was it one of his
14 subordinates who would inform the Crisis Staff about events in the field?
15 A. Mostly it was Colonel Galic who came during those few days to
16 Crisis Staff sessions, and he would provide brief information about what
17 had happened in the field.
18 Q. Now, one of his subordinates, a brigade commander named
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Vukasevic, would also attend meetings during this
20 period, right, at times?
21 A. Mr. Vukasevic is someone I saw only once, and had you not
22 mentioned him, I don't think I would have remembered his name anyway.
23 Q. I'll ask you a little bit about him shortly. But turning --
24 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. Turning to page 6 in the English and 10 in
25 the B/C/S.
1 Q. We see at point 1 a decision of the commander to block several
2 villages with the obligation of calling for unconditional surrender and
3 surrender of arms. And then if no resistance is given, the mopping up of
4 the area can be carried out. The commander being referred to is again
5 Colonel Galic; right?
6 A. I am trying to find his name here but I cannot, and I cannot
7 remember whether those were his words.
8 Q. Well, when you read the commander has taken the decision to block
9 those villages, who do you understand to have been the commander?
10 A. Well, in the military hierarchy I cannot know, and I did not know
11 then, who the commander was on the ground, whether it was Colonel Galic
12 or whether it was the mentioned Vukasevic or a third person. I really
13 cannot recall right now.
14 Q. I want to turn now, then, and --
15 MR. TRALDI: Just to close that topic, actually.
16 Q. So, you understand that decision to have been taken by one of the
17 VRS commanders and you don't recall which one; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. I want to turn now then to the meeting you described yesterday
20 held a couple of days later where you and Colonel Galic learned that
21 Muslims detained at the Velagici school had been massacred. Now, the
22 military command in the area had assigned people to guard those
23 prisoners; right?
24 A. It was the case that that evening the military command placed
25 guards to guard the people who were detained in the facility and to guard
1 the facility itself.
2 Q. Okay. And at this meeting when you heard about the massacre, you
3 mentioned that you, Colonel Galic, and Jovo Banjac were present. I'm
4 just going to ask you if a few other people were present at the time.
5 Was Bosko Lukic present?
6 A. Well, I don't remember who was present, who all the people
7 present were, but the three was that I mentioned, I'm sure. There were
8 other persons there, but who it was exactly I cannot recall.
9 Q. So you specifically don't recall if Bosko Lukic was there; is
10 that right?
11 A. I do not recall.
12 Q. I'm going to ask you three more names and simply say "yes, I
13 recall that he was there," or "no, I recall he wasn't there," or "I don't
14 recall," please. First, Vinko Kondic, do you recall if he was there?
15 A. From time to time.
16 Q. At this specific meeting.
17 A. I don't remember that he was there on the 30th of May. I really
18 don't remember whether he was at the meeting on the 30th of May.
19 Q. And just to be perfectly clear, we're talking about the meeting
20 where you learned --
21 MR. TRALDI: And maybe for clarity, let's take the document off
22 the screen.
23 Q. The meeting where you learned about the massacre at Velagici. Do
24 you recall if Vinko Kondic was there when you learned that?
25 A. Yes, that's the 27th of May, and Vinko Kondic was present at the
2 Q. It's -- it's the 1st of June that the massacre happened; right?
3 The massacre at Velagici of the detained Muslims.
4 A. I don't remember whether Vinko Kondic was at the meeting on the
5 1st of June.
6 Q. Do you recall if Lieutenant-Colonel Vukasevic, who we discussed a
7 moment ago, was there when you learned that the Muslim had been
9 A. Colonel Galic was the only officer present there.
10 Q. And do you recall if Ljuban Bajic from the SDS was there?
11 A. He probably was, but I really cannot recall. I cannot say "yes"
12 or "no." Perhaps I can remember as I look at the minutes. I see that
13 Veljko Kondic wrote the minutes, so he was the fourth person that I know
14 attended the meeting for sure.
15 Q. Now, you claimed yesterday that the perpetrators of this massacre
16 were tried. I'd put to you that they were arrested and taken to military
17 prison and gave statements but, in fact, they were not put on trial or
18 punished during the war. That's the truth, isn't it?
19 A. That I don't know. I know that they were arrested and tried, and
20 how far that went I really don't know because I was not in a position to
21 find anything out.
22 Q. Sir, that's the second time that you've testified that they were
23 tried. What I'm putting to you is you, in fact, don't know whether there
24 was a trial or not; right?
25 A. I don't know whether there was a trial, but I know that they were
1 arrested and that a process had started. But how far it went and whether
2 it was completed, I really don't know.
3 Q. So you don't know that they were released shortly thereafter?
4 A. I don't know.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I rise as I've consulted with my
6 colleague, Mr. Lukic, just to make sure I wasn't missing something, but
7 the B/C/S answers that I've been hearing over the earpiece of the witness
8 have been talking about the B/C/S word "procesuiran", procesuiran," which
9 is different from "tried," so I think there is a --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's seek -- let's try to clarify that.
11 MR. TRALDI: I think the witness --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. TRALDI: -- might just have done so. He agreed that he
14 doesn't know there was a trial and that there was a process. So I think
15 that by this point we may have reached --
16 JUDGE ORIE: But that still suggests that the language he's using
17 in one way or another -- let me try to clarify this.
18 Witness, we understand a trial to be that an accused is brought
19 before a court which will then determine whether the accused is guilty of
20 the charges and if so to be punished. Did we understand well that you do
21 not know whether those who were arrested for the events in the Nonide
22 [phoen] Velagici school ever appeared before the judge in order to final
23 determine whether or not they are guilty of the crimes charged?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether they appeared
25 before a judge.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. TRALDI: If we could have P3758 back. And turn to page 9 in
3 the English and 15 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. Now, here we're looking at the minutes from the Crisis Staff
5 session on the 2nd of June, and we see at point 1(a), a report from the
6 brigade commander, Lieutenant-Colonel and it's spelled Vucovecic, that
7 is, in fact, Lieutenant-Colonel Vukasevic who we've been discussing;
9 A. I think it is Vukasevic.
10 MR. TRALDI: Now can the Prosecution please have P3528, page 12
11 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S.
12 Q. And, sir, as this comes up, this will be a portion of the
13 Velagici case file.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document is under seal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi --
16 MR. TRALDI: I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you consider -- I do not know what
18 questions you want to put to the witness, but to consider whether or not
19 to go into private session if the document is under seal?
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Sir, actually, I'll just put to you the evidence the Chamber has
22 received. My notes appear to be inconsistent on this point. But the
23 Chamber has received evidence --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At least it should not be broadcast.
25 MR. TRALDI: And it certainly should not be broadcast.
1 Q. And it -- the Chamber has received evidence that shortly before
2 giving this report, Lieutenant-Colonel Vukasevic had been at the Velagici
3 school and had ordered the engineering unit to organise a truck and a
4 bulldozer to transport the bodies from Velagici to the woods on the road
5 to Gornji Budelj village. Now, I have three questions for you on this
6 point. First, did he mention issuing this order when he was giving a
7 report to the Crisis Staff the next day?
8 A. I don't remember that something like that was mentioned.
9 Q. Second, the engineering unit, that would have been the
10 engineering unit based at Laniste that we discussed earlier this morning;
12 A. I assume that that is the case.
13 Q. And third, are you aware that the bodies of the people killed in
14 this massacre were exhumed after the war from a pit in the Laniste area
15 in the woods off the road headed west from Velagici?
16 A. I heard that there was an exhumation, but I really don't know
17 where or when that exactly took place.
18 Q. Now shortly after these meetings, the Velagici school was blown
19 up; right?
20 A. That was the old abandoned school from the old days, and I really
21 don't know. I'm not sure about it being blown up. I haven't heard about
23 Q. Did you ever pass in that direction during the war?
24 A. I did pass, but the school is away from the road and there are
25 other buildings there and the terrain is such that the school cannot
1 actually be seen. At least that's the way I remember it.
2 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have P4157, please.
3 Q. Now, this is an aerial image of Velagici area, and we can see on
4 the left an image as of the 13th of November, 1990 and on the right as of
5 the 21st of August, 1992. I admit the quality isn't perfect, but if you
6 look at the area within the dotted lines on both sides you can make out
7 the outlines of buildings on the left, can't you, within those dotted
9 A. Yes, I assume that the black areas are buildings.
10 Q. And not on the right?
11 A. I assume that the black are buildings, but the image is really
12 such that I cannot give a relevant answer to that question.
13 Q. Fair enough. Now as of -- as of the date of this massacre, the
14 1st of June, the fighting in Kljuc had been finished with; right?
15 Fighting in Kljuc municipality.
16 A. Yes, in the town of Kljuc there wasn't any fighting. There was
17 fighting only in those areas where the Territorial Defence had been
18 organised, the Muslim Territorial Defence. In those parts. I've already
19 said in my statement where the fighting had taken place.
20 Q. Well, those -- those areas, Pudin Han and others, the fighting
21 there was over by the 1st of June, wasn't it?
22 A. Well, I cannot recall right now when all of that was over.
23 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 030 --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Traldi.
25 Could I ask you one follow-up question. You said you couldn't
1 see the school because it was away from the road. The area indicated
2 here, is that the area where the school was located?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I assume,
4 although I cannot state anything with certainty.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So are you sure that the location of the school was
6 away from the road and, if so, at what distance approximately?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that part, the road was deeply
8 cut in, so that cannot be noticed if one goes there by car because it's
9 very steep and one cannot see on either side of the road.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether the Prosecution has any
11 pictures or images of it so as to better be able to verify the accuracy
12 of the witness here.
13 MR. TRALDI: I admit I'm not sure off the top of my head, but
14 we'll certainly look, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so and then perhaps share that
16 with the Defence and inform the Chamber if it sheds any light on the
17 credibility or reliability of the witness.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Sir, what's now at the site where the school was is a cemetery;
22 A. No, the cemetery is across the road from there.
23 Q. And of course clearly visible from the road; right? As the road
24 exists today anyway.
25 A. I don't remember the appearance of the road, but if you are
1 headed from Kljuc to Bihac, the cemetery is on the right-hand side of the
2 road, and the neighbourhood where the school was located was on the
3 left-hand side of the road. That's the way I remembered it, but I don't
4 know. I can't -- I can't believe that I'm -- would have made such a
5 mistake of not locating those two things properly.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could I ask you the following.
7 You said:
8 "I don't remember the appearance of the road."
9 A minute ago you told us that the road was so deep that you
10 couldn't overlook what was next to the road. Are you certain about that?
11 Because you now say you don't remember the appearance of the road.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second question about the
13 appearance of the road. It's not that I did not realise what the
14 appearance of the road was then. I don't know what its appearance is
15 today. I don't know whether there were any new constructions. But the
16 last time I passed that way, I know and I saw that the cemetery is on the
17 right-hand side, that the school was on the left-hand side, and I know
18 that the road is kind of -- that it curves next to the school and not
19 next to the cemetery. The cemetery is a bit further away from the
20 school. It's not just opposite the school across the road.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said --
22 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours --
23 JUDGE ORIE: You --
24 MR. IVETIC: -- the Prosecution's question says: "As the road
25 exists today anyway," at lines 21, 24 through 25.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware of that.
2 You said the last time you passed that way. When was that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Last year, sometime in the summer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And you said that when you passed there last time,
5 the cemetery is on the right-hand side. Could you see that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The school was on the left-hand side. Could you see
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are lots of buildings there
10 nowadays, so it was very difficult to notice the school if it indeed
11 exists. It's very difficult to say whether it exists or not. I didn't
12 really pay attention. The neighbourhood has developed quite
13 significantly in the meantime.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is the road still deep down?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that area, the road is still
16 deep down. The level of the road has not risen in the meantime. The
17 road is still the same. On the right-hand side, you can see the slope.
18 A cartographer can actually read the map and he can tell that there is
19 a -- a sloping ground towards the neighbourhood, and the slant must be
20 several metres. At least that's what I could discern from the photo that
21 I had.
22 JUDGE ORIE: What photo do you talk about?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photo of the neighbourhood
24 where the school in Velagici was. I'm talking about that image that we
25 had on the screen some five or six minutes ago.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And you could see the elevation on that picture?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know from my previous experience
3 when I passed through that area that the road is on a slant. You can
4 actually see it on the image that the road cuts deep into the
5 neighbourhood if you look at the image carefully. Maybe you can display
6 the image again. I can show it to you. It can be proven.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is that on both sides of the road?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it is the case on
9 both sides, with some differences: The slants are not identical, there
10 is a little bit of a shift towards the right. I can't tell you exactly
11 whether it's a bit to the front or to the back, but in any case, those
12 two parallel sides do show a certain shift in a place there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you whether you want to revisit the
14 aerial picture, Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: I think I'd appreciate having the opportunity to
16 think about it over the break, and I see it's about time for that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's even beyond that.
18 Witness, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20
20 Could you give us an indication, Mr. Traldi, as to where we are
21 in terms of time.
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd estimated two and a half. I think
23 I should be about able to stick to that. I'm told I'm just over two
24 hours at the moment, and so I should finish this session.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are various opinions about whether you
2 requested two hours or two and a half hours.
3 MR. TRALDI: I think I may, to some extent, have been responsible
4 for that. I think our initial estimate was two hours and our e-mail last
5 week would have said two and a half, and I'll check and attempt to
6 confirm whether my recollection is accurate.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be a good explanation for the
8 difference of --
9 MR. TRALDI: My --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- timing. I've seen two and a half hours,
11 colleagues have seen two hours, apparently in different documents.
12 MR. TRALDI: My commanding officer tells me that my recollection
13 is correct, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it that the Defence will not challenge
15 the observations by the commanding officer.
16 MR. IVETIC: I was apprised of the two and a half hours. I also
17 saw the two hours but the two and a half hours came later, so I assumed
18 it was two and a half hours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, commanding officer is right.
20 We take and break and will resume at 20 minutes past midday.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
23 MR. TRALDI: Just to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI: Just to use the time, if we might have P7033 back
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I abuse the time to deal with a matter in
3 relation to Witness GRM251.
4 On the 27th of August, the Chamber denied the Defence motion for
5 protective measures for this witness.
6 On the 11th of December, the Chamber also denied a Defence motion
7 to vary the time-limit to seek certification to appeal the Chamber's
8 original decisions and set a dead-line of the 18th of December for the
9 Defence to file a submission on how to proceed with the proposed evidence
10 of the witness.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: However, the Defence did not file any submissions on
13 that matter. The Chamber considers the Defence's silence on this matter
14 to mean that the witness will not be recalled; therefore, the Chamber
15 invites the Registry to notify the witness that he is released.
16 Furthermore, considering the limited scope of the witness's
17 substantive testimony, as well the absence of any cross-examination, the
18 Chamber will not rely on the evidence adduced and declares moot the
19 92 ter motion for this witness.
20 And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the matter.
21 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Sir, you assert in your statement that the Muslim civilian
24 population was treated in accordance with the law. Now, we've just
25 looked at one example of treatment of detained Muslims, the massacre in
1 Velagici. That was an appalling war crime; right?
2 A. Indeed, a crime did take place in Velagici but it hadn't been
3 planned. It hadn't been ordered by a superior command. The crime was
4 wilfully committed by individuals. Those individuals were held
5 responsible. They --
6 Q. Sir --
7 A. -- should have been indeed held responsible for what they did.
8 Q. -- you've gone somewhat beyond my question. You agree with me it
9 was an appalling war crime; right?
10 A. Yes. A war crime did take place in Velagici.
11 Q. I want to ask you about some other examples of treatment of
12 detained Muslims.
13 Now, this is the image you marked earlier. You know that Muslims
14 were detained and beaten in the building you've marked with the school,
15 the Nikola Mackic school, just metres away from the Crisis Staff
16 headquarters; right?
17 A. Members of the Territorial Defence - of the Muslim
18 Territorial Defence - who were in possession of weapons were brought in.
19 They were kept in the school for a short period of time, they were
20 processed there, and from there they were transferred to the Manjaca
22 There were, indeed, incidents. Individuals came of their own
23 will to do what you said that they did. On several occasions
24 President Banjac intervened --
25 Q. Sir --
1 A. -- and prevented those things from taking place.
2 Q. And, in fact, in spite of any reactions by the Crisis Staff
3 members, it happened quite a lot that people were beaten there; right?
4 A. There were such incidents.
5 Q. I'm going to ask for a direct answer to my question: Did it
6 happen quite a lot that people were beaten at the Nikola Mackic school?
7 A. I don't know whether that happened often because I was not there
8 all the time. I was not in the municipality building 24/7.
9 MR. TRALDI: Well, can we have 65 ter 31814, page 160.
10 Q. This will be part of your sworn testimony in the Brdjanin case.
11 Now beginning at line 12, you're asked about the Mackic school,
12 and at line 15 you were asked:
13 "And you were fully aware, weren't you, that people were being
14 beaten and beaten to death in that building?"
15 At first you said:
16 "I could not know that in this form. But whenever we noticed
17 that something was happening which was not in accordance with normal
18 human behaviour, we intervened, both with the police and with the
19 military command."
20 And you were asked:
21 "What do you call something that isn't in accord with 'normal
22 human behaviour'?"
23 And at the bottom of this page --
24 MR. TRALDI: If we could scroll down.
25 Q. You responded:
1 "If someone set out to beat someone, then of course we would
2 respond and say that such things must not happen, although in spite of
3 our reactions, such things did happen quite a lot."
4 Do you stand by your Brdjanin testimony that it happened a lot,
5 that people were beaten at the Mackic school?
6 A. I stand by that statement.
7 Q. Now separately, the Chamber has received evidence that Muslims
8 were detained at the Kljuc police station, which we also saw is nearby
9 the Crisis Staff headquarters, and received evidence from a Defence
10 witness named Nikola Vracar who stood guard outside the SJB that he could
11 hear people inside being beaten. Now, you were also aware that prisoners
12 were being abused there, weren't you?
13 A. There were individual cases, yes. But those happenings were
14 often prevented as well.
15 Q. Now, what happened with the prisoners held at the SJB was the
16 police would interrogate them and then send them to the military prisoner
17 at Manjaca; right?
18 A. After they were processed, those who were members of the
19 Territorial Defence in possession of weapons and for whom it was proven
20 that they were members of the Territorial Defence were transferred to the
21 Manjaca barracks. I don't know if it was a military prison or something
22 else. I was never there.
23 Q. Okay. Sir --
24 A. Those who were not in possession of any weapon --
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you again.
1 MR. TRALDI: Let's go to page 159 of this document.
2 Q. And here you were asked at the bottom of the page:
3 "But they weren't only being held at Manjaca, were they,
4 prisoners? For a time, at least, they were being held at the police
5 station in Kljuc. You knew that, didn't you?"
6 And you responded:
7 "Mostly they passed through the police station. There, the
8 police carried out certain interrogation, identification. And then sent
9 these people on to Manjaca, to the military prison camp. And this was
10 done by the police in agreement with the military command."
11 Do you stand by the portions of your sworn testimony in the
12 Brdjanin case that I have just read out to you?
13 A. Yes, that's indeed the case.
14 Q. Now, moving away from prisoners, you were aware that on the
15 1st of June 1992 a village called Prhovo was attacked; right?
16 A. I learnt about that in the afternoon hours in the office of the
17 president of the municipality.
18 Q. Now, Prhovo was a Muslim village; right?
19 A. There are two villages by the name of Prhovo next to each other.
20 One of them is a Muslim village and the other is a Serb village.
21 Q. Which one was attacked?
22 A. The Muslim Prhovo village was searched, and those who were in
23 possession of weapons were brought in because that was the purpose of the
24 search, to find the hidden weapons.
25 Q. Sir, I'd put to you that you're not being fully forthcoming at
1 the moment. In fact, you're aware, as you sit there, that women and
2 children were killed during the attack on Prhovo; right?
3 A. Yes. I stated once what had happened in Prhovo. You'll find it
4 in one of my statements.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, let me be very clear to you. You
6 were asked about an attack on Prhovo. Your answer focused on a search
7 for weapons, which was not the gist of the question. You should tell us
8 here everything you know and not refer to any earlier statement.
9 So the answer was, I take it, but I'm still not certain whether
10 you confirm or not that women and children were killed during the attack
11 on Prhovo. Were they?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A certain number of women and
13 children were killed in Prhovo, indeed. I thought it would suffice for
14 me to say that I explained that in a statement of mine. I can do it
15 again, if necessary.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, carefully listen to any question Mr. Traldi is
17 putting to you and answer them.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. And, sir, just so you're clear on the process: Of your previous
20 statements and testimonies, only the specific statement that Mr. Ivetic
21 tendered into evidence is before the Court and part of the record in this
22 case, and so that's why I'm asking you about some other things that we
23 both know you know and you've testified about in the past.
24 So Prhovo was attacked and a number of women, children, and
25 elderly people were killed and they were killed by the VRS military
1 police; right?
2 A. Prhovo was not attacked. There was a search of Prhovo. During
3 the search an incident happened and some women and children were killed
4 during that incident.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether women, children, and
6 elderly were killed by the VRS military police.
7 MR. IVETIC: I beg to differ, Your Honour. The question says:
8 "So Prhovo was attacked ..."
9 At the very beginning. So he is quite accurately responding to
10 the question Mr. Prosecutor posed to him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I --
12 MR. IVETIC: And I would object to the fact that he has been
13 trying to do this now several times --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
15 MR. IVETIC: -- and no one wants to hear the whole story.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think that earlier when there was a
17 question about an attack that the witness did not deny that there was an
18 attack. But let's leave it to that. Let's leave it to that.
19 The question now is whether elderly, women, and children were
20 killed by the VRS military police during this action. I'll refrain from
21 calling it an "attack" or a "search" in Prhovo.
22 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would point to the prior
23 transcript where, again, when it was referenced as an attack, he said
24 there was a search. And then it was intervened and said he -- his answer
25 was interrupted. So he has been trying to explain this to Your Honours
1 for ten minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Were elderly -- were elderly, children, and women
3 killed by the VRS military police?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were killed during the search.
5 JUDGE ORIE: By the VRS military police?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now please explain what caused them to be killed at
8 that occasion?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how I learned about what
10 happened. In the municipality building in the office of the president of
11 the municipality, I was there with the president, with Colonel Galic, and
12 a few other persons in the afternoon. At one moment, an officer entered
13 the office. I didn't know him. I think that he held the rank of
14 captain. I saw him then and never again. He was in tears. He addressed
15 Colonel Galic and he said, "Colonel, sir, in Prhovo I lost a military
16 policeman, he was killed, and after that I lost command over the platoon
17 of the military police," and what we have already said was done. That is
18 how I heard about it. That is how I learned about it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And any further explanation as why elderly, women,
20 and children were killed, rather than someone who may have attacked a
21 military policeman and have killed him?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mentioned captain said that he
23 had lost command; that is to say, that he could not command because
24 people no longer obeyed him, the people whose colleague that military
25 policeman got killed there. So they did what they did on their own.
1 Colonel Galic was very surprised and he left the office together with the
2 captain, and I don't know what happened then.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're not aware of any action taken by
4 Colonel Galic at that time to give a follow-up on what was reported to
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I have no
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. And you're not aware, are you, of any VRS military policeman
11 being punished during the war for that massacre?
12 A. Well, I don't know. I never really dealt with that matter.
13 Q. There was also a massacre of unarmed people at the Biljani school
14 in Kljuc in July 1992; right?
15 A. Well, I was absent. I wasn't in Kljuc then. It was only a few
16 days later. When I came to Kljuc, I found out that something had
17 happened in Biljani. But, indeed, I never got any concrete information
18 that would indicate what happened, how it happened, and why it happened.
19 Q. Now what you heard happened was that detained Muslims, more than
20 a hundred of them, were massacred; right?
21 A. No, not nearly 800. I really don't know about the number. I
22 don't know about the concrete matter. But when I returned from that
23 trip, at one moment I found out that this incident had occurred where a
24 certain number of persons were killed.
25 Q. Those persons were detained at the time; right?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, your question was more than a hundred of
2 them were killed, and the witness answers:
3 "No, not nearly 800."
4 MR. TRALDI: I had initially intended to follow up on that, but
5 when he said: "I really don't know about the number," I thought perhaps
6 I would leave it lie, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but does the number of a hundred people being
8 killed, is that --
9 Can you say anything about that not having have happened?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were deaths but how many
11 people died, I really don't know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. And you don't know of anybody being punished for this incident
15 either, do you?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. And the bodies of this incident too were exhumed only after the
18 war from a pit in the Laniste area; right?
19 A. Well, I don't know. I don't have that information.
20 Q. I'll turn now to a slightly different topic. We saw on the
21 aerial image that you had reviewed a mosque that had been built after the
22 war, and there was one mosque in Kljuc town at the beginning of the war.
23 It was destroyed in July 1992; right?
24 A. It was destroyed. And I don't know what the month was. I cannot
1 Q. And, in fact, none of the mosques in Kljuc municipality survived
2 the war, did they?
3 A. Well, I assume that that is the case. But I know for sure that
4 the one in Kljuc was destroyed.
5 Q. Now, sir, I've reviewed your statement carefully, and I believe
6 paragraph 20 where you refer to "isolated incidents of plunder and the
7 like committed during conflicts between Serb and Muslim forces in Kljuc"
8 is the only place in your evidence where you refer to any crimes
9 committed by Bosnian Serb forces at all. Do you agree with me that there
10 were, in fact, far more than isolated incidents of plunder. There were
11 repeated massacres, abuse of non-Serb prisoners, and destruction of
12 Muslim cultural heritage?
13 A. As for individual incidents in terms of killings, yes, that did
14 happen, and that was the result of people who were not under any kind of
15 control but simply wanted to plunder and, in that way, if they killed
16 someone, if they destroyed some property, then they would try to conceal
18 Q. Sir, sir, the incidents we've talked about, you say people tried
19 to conceal it. You knew, Colonel Galic knew, and nobody was punished.
20 That's the truth, isn't it?
21 A. No, no. No, that's not true. Why would I have to know? It's
22 only later that I found out about something.
23 Q. And we've seen you were aware of several of these large
24 massacres. You were a member of the Republika Srpska Assembly and the
25 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina. Did you keep this
1 information to yourself or did you share it with the members of the
2 Republika Srpska leadership that you regularly interacted with at those
4 A. Well, the assembly was not informed, I mean, about -- I mean,
5 what happened at individual, local communities.
6 Q. You never said, "Hey, we've got a problem in Kljuc. We've got
7 people running around massacring dozens, hundreds, taking them together,
8 of unarmed Muslims"?
9 A. I didn't understand that question.
10 Q. All right. I'm going to move on to the last topic that I'm going
11 to address, which I'll do pretty briefly.
12 Sir, you say in your statement people in Kljuc were free to leave
13 if they wanted to. The people leaving had to sign statements saying they
14 wouldn't come back; right?
15 A. Well, I don't know that such statements were signed, but I know
16 that due to instability and due to the lack of security that prevailed in
17 the area, many people expressed the wish to leave, and it was made
18 possible for the civilian protection to organise things to record the
19 names of all the persons who were leaving and organise vehicles, cars,
20 buses, whatever was possible at that moment, so that people could be
21 transferred to the areas that they believed were safe.
22 Q. You say they wished to leave because of the lack of security.
23 The reason they felt they lacked security, the reason they were afraid
24 was this repeated pattern of crimes committed against the Muslims of
25 Kljuc municipality; right?
1 A. The reason for leaving was primarily the war in Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina. Kljuc was full of refugees, people from other towns in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I must say that the Muslims of Kljuc were the
4 last people who left their hometown if you take all of Bosnia-Herzegovina
5 into account. People had arrived from many different towns.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not catch all of
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there was a war going on.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Sir, sir, I'm just going to test two parts of your evidence
12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, Mr. Traldi, could you have a look
14 at page 62, the first three lines. In your first sentence of the
15 question, you referred to what the witness said in the statement. In the
16 second sentence, it's a bit unclear whether you put to the witness that
17 what is in his statement is not accurate, or whether you're still
18 referring to his statement assuming that that's what he said. Because if
19 I look at page 28 of the statement, it seems to be pretty clear what the
20 position of this witness is. That's caused me some confusion.
21 MR. TRALDI: What I was putting to the witness, and I'll do it
22 very clearly, if you like, Mr. President. What I was putting to the
23 witness was:
24 Q. Sir, in your statement, when you say there was some isolated
25 incidents of plunder and the like during these activities, you are
1 dramatically understating the crimes committed against the Muslims; is
2 that right?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a different page 62, I take it,
4 Mr. Traldi. It was the -- let me just have a look.
5 MR. TRALDI: I'd thought you meant 36, but --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, 62.
7 MR. TRALDI: I don't have --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you have -- don't have the --
9 MR. IVETIC: It's in reference to paragraph 28 of the statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's about the -- what -- I'll just check, one
12 Yes. Let me just have a look Mr. -- oh, yes, it's -- let me see,
13 on my left screen I have a different number compared to the ... I
14 referred to -- let me just have a --
15 MR. TRALDI: It may be 37, lines 9 through 11.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- yes. That's exactly what I refer to.
17 MR. TRALDI: All right. Then --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You understand my confusion. You start by referring
19 to the statement, but apparently it was not entirely clear whether the
20 second sentence is also a reference to his statement or whether it is
21 something you put to him which is not in his statement.
22 MR. TRALDI: The second sentence was something I was putting to
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then --
25 MR. TRALDI: It -- and I'd -- I'll go step by step here.
1 Can we have --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 03045.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say the number again.
5 MR. TRALDI: 03045.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Now, sir, this is a decision by the Kljuc Crisis Staff issued the
9 4th of June, just a couple of days after the massacres at Velagici and
10 Prhovo. And in the first point, it says:
11 "All citizens of the Municipality of Kljuc who express the wish
12 to permanently move out of the Municipality of Kljuc will be enabled to
13 move away from the Municipality of Kljuc in an organised manner."
14 So, first, it was the Crisis Staff's position that the people
15 leaving would be helped to leave if they were leaving permanently; right?
16 A. Permanently. This word that was used, "permanently." The
17 intention was to have the population stay in the municipality of Kljuc,
18 not move out anywhere. That did help in a way. About 1.000 inhabitants
19 of Muslim ethnicity never left Kljuc. They stayed in Kljuc.
20 Q. So the rule was those leaving had to leave permanently; right?
21 A. When using the word "permanently," what was intended was not to
22 have people leave. The intention was to have them stay in Kljuc. So
23 it's the other way around.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir --
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Okay.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you're not being asked to interpret the word
3 "permanently," but the question is: Those who did leave had to leave
4 permanently; is that correct?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this document is incorrect, according to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what is written there in
8 order to ensure what I have explained.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're not asking you to ensure anything. We're
10 just asking you whether -- is the document incorrect, according to you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was written exactly --
12 I mean, it's not incorrect. But the --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- intention was to achieve what
15 I've explained.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've answered my question. Thank you.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03045 receives number P7034, Your
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. As to intentions, the Chamber has received evidence that just a
24 few days later Kljuc was represented at a regional meeting where several
25 municipalities decided that the population of Muslims and Croats in their
1 municipalities should be reduced to a level where Serbian control could
2 be ensured.
3 MR. TRALDI: That's P3753.
4 Q. Now it was, in fact, the intention of the Kljuc authorities to
5 reduce the population of Muslims and Croats in their municipality; wasn't
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if he's going to cite a document, he
8 needs to show it to the witness. I'm going to object on that basis.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it's -- it's not necessarily to be done,
10 but if there is any dispute about what the document says then, of course,
11 you could insist on -- you can insist on a literal quote. But if it
12 summarizes it accurately, then of course it's not always needed to put it
13 to the witness.
14 MR. TRALDI: I was simply trying to be efficient, Your Honours,
15 but I am happy to call it up if Mr. Ivetic is requesting it.
16 MR. IVETIC: Definitely. If he's going to be comparing and
17 saying is what's in this document the intention of the Kljuc authorities,
18 I think he needs to call it up and he needs to have the exact language in
19 front of the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's clear.
21 MR. IVETIC: I can't remember off the top of my head what the
22 document says.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
24 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then you say due to the -- I wouldn't know either,
1 but if you say that's a reason why I would like to have a look at it,
2 then of course you're fully entitled to look at it. And Mr. Traldi has
3 called it up already.
4 Mr. Traldi?
5 MR. TRALDI: I have.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. TRALDI: But we don't see it yet on the screen.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P3753.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. And this is the conclusions adopted at a subregional meeting of
11 political representatives of several municipalities. We see Kljuc is the
12 last one. And I'm afraid I don't recall what point number it is.
13 MR. TRALDI: But I think we need to turn to the second page in
14 both languages.
15 Q. Yes, point 6.
16 "All seven municipalities in our sub-region agree that Muslims
17 and Croats should move out of our municipalities until a level is reached
18 where a Serbian authority can be maintained and implemented on its own
19 territory in each of these municipalities."
20 Now that, in fact, was the position of the Kljuc authorities;
22 A. No, no. I don't know about this document. This is the first
23 time I see it and I've never heard of it.
24 Q. All right. As to the population, you said a moment ago a
25 thousand stayed. There were 17.500 Muslims at the beginning of the war;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And last point on this issue.
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P4105 just for a second.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the number.
6 MR. TRALDI: 4105.
7 Q. Now, sir, this is a set of declarations of people leaving Kljuc
8 municipality. If you look under the word "declaration," second
9 paragraph, you see this person declares:
10 "My family and I are leaving Kljuc Municipality voluntarily and
11 permanently," and that they've signed it.
12 And so does this refresh your recollection as to whether people
13 leaving Kljuc had to sign statements saying they were leaving for good?
14 A. I stand by the statement I've already provided, and this
15 statement shows that, nevertheless, it was through the civilian
16 protection that this work was done.
17 Q. Okay. Then I'm done with that topic.
18 MR. TRALDI: And very briefly, can we have 31883.
19 Q. And, sir, I'm going to go back to the issue of the Velagici
20 school and whether it's still there.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one additional question in relation to
22 the previous matter.
23 Witness, in paragraph 28 of your statement, we see that you said:
24 "When leaving the municipality of Kljuc, all citizens were
25 allowed to sell their property or gift it to others or leave it to their
1 fellow residents to look after, but it is also probable that there were
2 some isolated instances of blackmail by individuals. I do not know of
3 and never saw anyone sign a document about leaving for good or
4 relinquishing their property to the Kljuc municipality."
5 When we looked at, this statement, seems to be a form where just
6 the data of the individuals are filled in, which also suggests that it
7 was not incidental, and it was not blackmail by individuals but it was
8 rather systemic, it being stemmed by the officials of Kljuc, the
9 commission for gathering information on the departure of the population.
10 Do you have an explanation as why you say it was individuals, it
11 was not systemic, whereas everything in this document suggests that it
12 was not by individuals and it was systemic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant in my statement was, I
14 mean, when I said that often some individuals did that, were forced to do
15 that, I meant that there were certain people who would force some
16 citizens of Muslim ethnicity to leave their apartment to them and to sign
17 that they had given it as a present or something like that. So I'm
18 referring to individuals, not what the civilian protection did.
19 The civilian protection did their work as defined by the
20 decision. However, this statement clearly shows that it is not that the
21 apartment is being returned to the municipality but to the owner, and in
22 this situation it is Sip Kljuc that is the owner. So the apartment is
23 not being given to the municipality but to the owner of the apartment;
24 although, in the former Yugoslavia, we had a specific situation, a
25 special situation as far as housing was concerned. So the owner of this
1 apartment was Sip.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't touch upon specifically on the ownership of
3 the department which is mentioned in this document. But leaving
4 voluntarily and permanently is part of the form. And, of course, what we
5 would like to know is that where the document we earlier looked at, that
6 was the statement which talks not about, please, Muslims and Croats,
7 stay, but is talking about permanently leaving, if we look at the
8 document you say you have no knowledge about what was discussed, that the
9 number of non-Serbs should be reduced so that the Serbs could exercise
10 control, and in view of the apparently 16.500 -- or was it -- yes, who
11 were initially there of which 15.500 then -- or did I mix up the number?
12 MR. TRALDI: And --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 17-. So, well, the more than 50.000 who'd
14 left, that all these documents are suggesting a situation which is quite
15 different from what you are telling us in your evidence, and I wonder
16 whether you have an explanation for this, what suggests is an
17 inconsistency between your testimony and what we read in those documents.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I rise to correct Your Honour that the
19 question posed by Your Honour included the evidence from the statement
20 which did talk about relinquishing property. It said, the second
21 transcript, which is with the smaller page numbers, page 44, your
22 question begins at line 15, and at line 22 through 23 is about leaving
23 for good or relinquishing property. And so I believe that Your Honour's
24 question was being answered by the witness, and, indeed, he did mention
25 relinquishing property and that has to be taken into account when
1 considering this document, which does not talk about relinquishing
2 property but returning property to the owner of the property as the
3 witness has testified.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Again, that is page 44?
5 MR. IVETIC: It's 44.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. IVETIC: It should be I think 70 -- 70 or 69, I think, it
8 would be on the big transcript. On the little transcript that we have on
9 our private monitors, it's 44 and specifically lines 22 through 23.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: When I was using the word "relinquishing property,"
13 I was quoting the witness, and the blackmail by individuals does not
14 specifically refer to either relinquishing property or moving out. Let
15 me just see.
16 MR. IVETIC: The sentence says:
17 "When leaving the Municipality of Kljuc, all citizens were
18 allowed to sell their property or gift it to others or leave it to their
19 fellow residents to look after, but it is also probable that there were
20 some isolated instances of blackmail by individuals."
21 So I put it to you that blackmail by individuals can only relate
22 to property based upon the statement, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, I think my question was then broader.
24 The question was also about permanently leaving. And I did not
25 specifically focus, as I said, on this document for this witness.
1 But you said there were a few opportunities either to sell or
2 to -- let me read it again. They were allowed to sell or gift it to
3 others or leave it to their fellow residents to look after. Couldn't
4 they just leave it as it was and then return? Without asking anyone else
5 to look after it at that moment and not selling it and not give it as a
6 present? Just leave and return.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how things were at the time.
8 I can't say now whether things could have been done differently. But
9 what I told you is my opinion, which is corroborated by the documents.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another question. What had to be done
11 with the real estate was part of the systemic approach because it appears
12 as one of the preprinted parts of this form. Would you agree with me
13 that that suggests or that -- could you even confirm that any declaration
14 on departure was supposed to have a paragraph on what to do with the
15 real estate rather than just leave it as it was?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not a legal expert. I
17 wouldn't be able to define the appearance of the form, to improve it on
18 what it was, actually.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31883.
22 Q. As it comes up, sir, you're -- we were just discussing what was
23 done with property. You've said a couple of times people had the right
24 to sell it. In fact, you're aware, aren't you, that the Kljuc War
25 Presidency passed a decision saying people who were leaving couldn't sell
1 their property?
2 A. I don't remember that decision. However, things -- things were
3 done in practice as I described them in the statement and as we have
4 discussed so far.
5 Q. Okay. We're looking at an aerial now. This is the area around
6 where the Velagici school used to be; right?
7 A. I'm trying to recognise it.
8 Q. Well, if you look at what looks like the white outlines of
9 something very much like a number 8 roughly in the centre, that's in fact
10 the cemetery for the people who were killed at Velagici; right?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid, Mr. Traldi, I can't recognise what
12 looks like a number 8.
13 MR. TRALDI: It's -- perhaps that was overly evocative of me
14 but --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you pointing at? It's nothing.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it's an 8 or not is -- may also depend on
17 how we learned to write an 8 at school.
18 MR. TRALDI: Perhaps --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
20 MR. TRALDI: It's more rectangular than an 8 would typically be,
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom in on it so that it's clear for the
23 witness. He's not being asked to mark anything at this moment. Could we
24 zoom in to the centre of the -- yes, even more. Even more. A little bit
25 further. Now we have to move up slightly. Yes.
1 Perhaps this assists, Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI: It does, Mr. President.
3 Q. Now that -- what we see in the centre of the image, a rectangle
4 that perhaps does not, in fact, look like a number 8, that's the cemetery
5 for the people killed at Velagici village; right?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you recognise it as the cemetery, Witness?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recognise the cemetery.
8 But since I passed that way, I can say that the cemetery indeed is
9 somewhere around there.
10 MR. TRALDI: Okay.
11 Q. In view of that answer, I think -- first, I'd put to you it's our
12 position that that's the cemetery; and, second, I'd suggest to you that
13 for someone driving by that area, it would, in fact, be pretty easy to
14 tell that there is not a school there; right?
15 A. There is no school there. There was never a school where the
16 cemetery is.
17 Q. Which -- you described earlier that the school was to the side of
18 where the cemetery is now. Can you describe for the Judges --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Opposite. Opposite.
20 MR. TRALDI: On the opposite side.
21 Q. Can you describe for the Judges and for me where on this image
22 the school used to be?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could have the assistance of the usher if
24 he moves the cursor in such a way upon the instructions of the witness --
25 MR. TRALDI: Actually, Your Honour, it might be simplest to have
1 him mark, I think, Your Honour, if that's --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but first to see whether you are -- whether he
3 recognises the same feature.
4 Could we move the cursor a little bit further to the right. A
5 little bit further to the right, to the right, to the right, stop. A
6 little bit further down.
7 Witness, were you aware that where the cursor is now that that is
8 the rectangular feature which Mr. Traldi referred to earlier in his
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This rectangular form
11 represents the location of the cemetery. But if we now want to locate
12 the school, then we have to move the cursor across the main road towards
13 the desk; that is, towards my desk.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Move the cursor towards me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move it a little bit down, and you say step if
17 we reach the level where you think the school was.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Across the road, across the road.
19 Very well. And now move to the right. And here, this is where the
20 school was. In this area here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we could ask the witness to mark it, but
22 at least we now know that he's talking about the same feature as you were
23 talking about.
24 Could you, Witness, first -- and I leave it to you, Mr. Traldi,
25 how to mark it.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Sir, if you could just draw an X where you believe the school to
3 have been.
4 A. [Marks]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now perhaps we could ask the witness to
6 put a circle around where the cemetery is so that -- no, this is the
7 marking of a previous image which is not what is supposed to be on
8 the ... okay.
9 Could we either have the marking again or ask the witness to
10 again mark with a cross the location of the school.
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE ORIE: And, Witness, could you please put a circle around
13 where you identified the cemetery to be.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender the image and that
16 completes my cross.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Image marked by the witness, Madam Registrar,
18 would receive number?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7035, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 And one final question from me, Witness. Could I ask you again:
22 Are you certain that from the road you couldn't see either it's the
23 cemetery or the school because the road was so deeply -- that you
24 couldn't see it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that. I said that
1 from the road you could see the cemetery but that you could not see the
2 school from the road because the road was at such an angle and at such a
3 level that you simply couldn't.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I also think we're at the time
7 for a break, so --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What -- how much time do you think you would
10 MR. IVETIC: I'm looking at about 30, 35 minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to see whether we can conclude the
12 evidence of the witness today.
13 And, Mr. Traldi, I know that you are -- you may need some time as
15 MR. IVETIC: Can we excuse the next witness, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the next witness can be excused.
17 Mr. Kalabic, we'll take a break. We would like to see you back
18 in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter to 2.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I use the opportunity to briefly address a
24 matter which is about the remaining issue from the testimony of
25 Novica Andric.
1 30th of September, during the testimony of that witness, the
2 Defence made reference to an interview with a witness where the witness
3 testified that the polygraph test was administered; transcript pages
4 26416 to -417.
5 The Chamber proceeded to request submissions from the parties
6 concerning the probative value of this polygraph test and asked the
7 parties to clarify how much time would be required to prepare
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution informed the Chamber that a week
11 would be sufficient. However, the Defence requested further time;
12 transcript pages 26427 to -430.
13 The Chamber contacted the Defence via e-mail on the 27th of
14 October, and again on the 2nd of December, requesting a time-line for
15 submissions, but as of today's date the Defence has not responded, and
16 both parties are hereby invited to make submissions by the 21st of
18 Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready to re-examine the witness, you may
20 MR. IVETIC: Okay. If we can have -- oops, my screen is dark. I
21 hope we have e-court.
22 Can we have P3771 to start off with.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can stay at page 1 in the English but turn to
25 the middle of page 2 in the Serbian.
1 Q. This is a meeting, the 23rd of December, of the SDS Municipal
2 Board of Executive Committee in Kljuc. You were asked about
3 Mr. Koljevic's statements about a tri-part Bosnia previously, and I would
4 like to look at what Mr. Vinko Kondic says at the bottom of the page in
5 English and in the middle of the second page in Serbian:
6 "We have to implement the federal and not Bosnian laws
7 because" --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak at such a volume
9 that we can hear it.
10 MR. IVETIC: I'll start again.
11 Q. "We have to implement the federal and not Bosnian laws because
12 the Bosnian laws are past by outvoting the Serbs."
13 And then we have Mr. Veljko Kondic who says -- or he says:
14 "Veljko Kondic will be responsible for co-operation with the
16 Now, does this accurately report the position, at least, of the
17 Kljuc SDS that co-operation with the SDA was required and that any laws
18 which outvoted one of the three constituent peoples would not be
19 considered valid? It's --
20 A. Is that a question for me?
21 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
22 A. Veljko Kondic was supposed to continue co-operation with the SDA
23 on the issue of the order of things that Vinko Kondic proposed although,
24 even before that, we talked and co-operated with the SDA. I emphasized
25 that this was just an attempt to reinforce co-operation with the SDA with
1 regard to certain topics.
2 Q. [In English] And here we've been talking about Serbs and the SDA,
3 but there's no mention of the Croats, the third constituent peoples of
4 the BiH. What was the population statistics of ethnic Croats in Kljuc?
5 A. There was slightly less than 1 per cent of Croats in Kljuc. I
6 don't know exactly how many there were, but less than 1 per cent.
7 Q. And in relation to the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina from
8 its time in the SFRY, could that constitution be changed or could that
9 republic secede from the former Yugoslavia without the vote of all three
10 constituent peoples?
11 A. The constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina has an article that I'm going to paraphrase. That
13 article defines that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Witness, and then we'll hear
15 Mr. Traldi.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The constitution of the Socialist
17 Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has an article that I'm going to
18 paraphrase. That article defines that two peoples cannot over-vote a
19 third people, regardless of what that people was. However, that article
20 of the constitution was not honoured, and there was over-voting of the
21 Serb deputies in the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: I think the connection between this last question
24 and my cross is a bit attenuated at best.
25 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Traldi represented the quotation of Mr. Koljevic
1 as a tripartite Bosnia as meaning something different than what is under
2 the constitution. I think I'm entitled to go back to the legal framework
3 of what tripartite Bosnia-Herzegovina means, not what the Prosecution
4 wants it to mean.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you would finish what you wanted to
6 tell us.
7 MR. TRALDI: I maintain my submission that the connection is
8 attenuated. Given Mr. Ivetic's response, I think he's focussing on a
9 different part of Mr. Koljevic's remarks than the part to which I sought
10 to call the witness's attention to and that underscores, I think, my
11 original point which is that this is questionably arising from
12 cross-examination at best.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, he used this document in
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. -- yes, the use of a document is not the
16 same as putting a specific question.
17 Mr. Ivetic, could you please keep in mind that the link between
18 what was raised in cross-examination and what you raise in
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Today at temporary transcript page 15 and onwards, Mr. Traldi
23 asked you about Kljuc's joining of the ARK. I would like to ask you
24 about the Kljuc Assembly declaration that Mr. Traldi had --
25 MR. IVETIC: Which is P7030, if we can call that up.
1 Q. Sir, do you recall how the voting went on this decision in the
2 Kljuc Municipal Assembly to join the ARK? Did Muslim delegates or
3 assemblymen participate in this vote?
4 A. This is not about the ARK joining anything. It's just about the
5 accepting of the name, and the municipality of Banja Luka became part of
6 the autonomous region. Muslim deputies were against that decision.
7 Q. And now if we take one step backward, the voting for the decision
8 to join the ARK in the first place, did Muslim deputies take part in that
10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that
11 description. I think Mr. Ivetic is conflating the ARK and the community
12 of municipalities in his question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it may be clear from paragraph 1 of this
14 document that there were several decisions on joining --
15 MR. IVETIC: The community of -- yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Co-operation of municipalities. I leave it exactly
17 at that neutral expression. Could you be very, very precise because
18 apparently there was one decision which was confirmed and there was a
19 decision adopted, a decision, I take it, the one adopted that would enter
20 into force on the day of its adoption; that is, on the 16th of January.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clearly distinguish between
23 whatever decisions you would like to refer to.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Sir, in relation to the decision, the earlier adopted decision
1 that is referenced in paragraph 1 of this decision, to join Kljuc
2 municipality to the regional community of Bosnia -- pardon me, to the
3 Banja Luka Community of Municipalities, did Muslim delegates or deputies
4 participate in that vote?
5 A. When the decision was passed on Kljuc joining the regional
6 community of Banja Luka, a hundred per cent of the voters in Banja Luka
7 were in favour. The deputies were then elected to represent Kljuc in the
8 Association of Communities. One of the deputies was Omer Filipovic.
9 Q. And did Omer Filipovic attend meetings or sessions of the
10 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
11 A. According to what I know, he attended such meetings once or
13 MR. TRALDI: I think again, Your Honours, we've created
14 confusion. And I'd just ask Mr. Ivetic to clarify if with his last
15 question he meant the ZOBK or the ARK.
16 MR. IVETIC: I meant the ARK. And if it helps, Mr. Traldi, your
17 document from cross-examination number 31815, page 16, that's the source
18 of my question where it says ARK, and that's the testimony of this
19 witness in another proceeding.
20 Q. Just so we can be clear, is this the same Omer Filipovic we
21 talked about that was a Bosnian Muslim and that later led the attacks of
22 27 May 1992?
23 A. Yes, one and the same.
24 Q. Thank you. Now at transcript -- temporary transcript page 20,
25 Mr. Traldi said that by April 1992 the Serbs controlled the important
1 positions in Kljuc and the power in Kljuc was in Serb hands. Sir, the
2 question I want to ask you: Did Serbs hold important positions in Kljuc
3 even prior April of 1992 essentially ever since the 1990 multiparty
5 A. If I understood your question well, we are talking about
6 important positions in employment. Is that what your question is about?
7 Q. In the government. In the local government in Kljuc.
8 A. In the local government of Kljuc, yes. As I have already told
9 you, Serbs distributed -- or, rather, split the power with Muslims 50/50.
10 I'm talking about the most important positions which were subject of
12 Q. And were the Muslims who were put in important positions
13 replaced; that is to say, were Serbs named to those positions or were
14 Serbs -- or were the Muslims still there formally in those positions?
15 A. If you're referring to Kljuc municipality, Muslims did come to
16 work up to the 27th of May, 1992. And then on that day, those people who
17 occupied various positions in the municipality did not turn up for work,
18 and then from then on, they stopped coming all together.
19 Q. And who --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic could --
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you are still on this subject, I will wait for a
24 MR. IVETIC: I was going to ask about the Kljuc Assembly. If you
25 want to ask about --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's about one of the previous questions.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Then go ahead.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Witness, you answered one question by saying:
5 "When the decision was passed on Kljuc joining the Regional
6 Community of Banja Luka, a hundred per cent of the voters in Banja Luka
7 were in favour."
8 I'm a bit puzzled by "hundred per cent of the voters in
9 Banja Luka." Was it a decision taken by voters in Banja Luka or was it a
10 decision which was passed by the Kljuc authorities? Could you help me
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. If I mentioned
13 Banja Luka, I must be tired. A hundred per cent of the deputies of the
14 Municipal Assembly of Kljuc were in favour of that, and the voting took
15 place in Kljuc.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That clarifies the matter. Then if you would
17 say a hundred per cent, that included the Muslim --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. And, sir, following the 1990 elections the Kljuc Municipal
23 Assembly, who had a majority of the seats therein?
24 A. After the elections, the SDS got over 50 per cent of the seats.
25 Whereas the SDA and the IMBO, the two Muslim parties that worked
1 together, got 20 per cent of the seats in the assembly.
2 MR. IVETIC: Now I would like to look at P2867, page 3 in both
4 Q. While we wait for it, I could say that this is the document that
5 we looked at earlier dated 14 May 1992.
6 THE REGISTRAR: May we have the number again.
7 MR. IVETIC: P2867. Page 3 in both versions.
8 Q. This is the meeting 14th May that you were present for with
9 Colonel Galic.
10 MR. IVETIC: And if we can have page 3 in the English. And if we
11 could focus on what President Banjac has to say. It's, I believe, near
12 the end of the page in the B/C/S and it is the approximately fourth
13 complete paragraph from the bottom in the English.
14 Q. "The president of Kljuc SO, Jovo Banjac, said that in Kljuc the
15 policy of finding a peaceful solution to the problems was still being
16 pursued. He also said that Kljuc municipality will work for the army
17 with all its available strength. He proposed to set up a military police
18 department to control the behaviour of reservists on leave."
19 Now, it was suggested to you by Mr. Traldi that this meeting
20 followed the meeting in Sarajevo and that in -- a meeting the same day
21 you --
22 MR. TRALDI: No, sorry. Not -- I'd -- I'd object to the
23 characterisation of what I suggested. It was not suggested this followed
24 a meeting in Sarajevo. It was suggested this followed a meeting in
25 Banja Luka --
1 MR. IVETIC: Banja Luka --
2 MR. TRALDI: -- two days earlier.
3 MR. IVETIC: -- two days earlier.
4 MR. TRALDI: -- at the Serb assembly.
5 Q. Where it was, you suggested, that you -- that you took the
6 objectives from these prior meetings and sent them down to Kljuc. Does
7 this accurately reflect the objectives as understood by the president of
8 the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc and of the Crisis Staff of Kljuc of what
9 the intent and goal of all the efforts of the parties, at least on the
10 Serb side were, at this time?
11 A. I believe that this is about strategic goals, or strategic
12 objectives, that we were informed about at that meeting. The president
13 portrayed the Serbian leadership of Kljuc municipality, and what the
14 president said can be corroborated by a statement by Asim Ekrecic [phoen]
15 who was the president of the Executive Board who said in one of his
16 statements that the leadership of the SDS in Kljuc was democratic,
17 tolerant, and that it was not difficult to co-operate with them.
18 MR. IVETIC: Okay. If we could also look at 65 ter number 02992.
19 Q. To refresh your recollection, this is the report from
20 Radio Kljuc, Hronika, about a memorial event in September of 1991 which
21 you attended regarding the --
22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, this strikes me as also beyond the
23 scope of cross. I didn't ask about this event, I didn't ask about the
24 memorial, and it's chronologically before basically any event that I
25 asked about.
1 MR. IVETIC: Is it before -- is it around the time-period of
2 Mr. Koljevic's comments? Was Mr. Buha and Mr. Koljevic in the same
3 branch of government? Do you know what I'm asking the witness, Counsel?
4 I haven't even yet had my question.
5 MR. TRALDI: I suppose it's two and a half months before -- or
6 three months before Mr. Koljevic's remarks.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
8 MR. TRALDI: That's true.
9 MR. IVETIC: So if we could turn to page 3 in both versions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's usually the -- there is no formal objection.
11 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, I will use the word I -- "I object."
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
13 MR. TRALDI: This document is beyond the scope of cross.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because otherwise, Mr. Ivetic, we could not
15 rule on it, but we'd have to rule on it --
16 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, agreed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But Mr. Ivetic was already satisfied that he was on
18 the right.
19 Mr. Ivetic, you may put that question to the witness, but I also
20 urge you not to dwell too far away from what was dealt with in cross.
21 And I would also like you to keep an eye on the clock.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying, Your Honours. I'm hoping to conclude
23 very shortly. I should be able to in about three, four minutes.
24 If we can look at -- I'm told it should be on page 3. This is
25 not -- on the B/C/S, it should also be page 3. Yes. And it's -- now we
1 have both on the screen.
2 Q. And here we have the comments where it says that Dr. Karadzic and
3 Dr. Koljevic and Mr. Crncevic had been announced but did not come to the
4 meeting but they were represented by Professor Aleksa Buha. And he talks
5 here about the task of the SDS, he said, was to make the Serbian people
6 aware, and this implied a revival of the national identity. "We have to
7 reach back to our national tradition, said Professor Buha, which has been
8 longer and more important than was thought. We should go back to Saint
9 Sava and our roots, he said, to find answers important for the Serbian
10 national identity. Another task for the SDS was to get the Serbian
11 people to clear things with their brothers with whom they had been living
12 in these parts for centuries, the Muslims and Croats. If all the three
13 peoples had satisfied themselves that the new nation would come to
14 nothing and that the regime so far had been a regime of pressure, what
15 remained was for each to go back to their own tradition and come together
16 at a latter point to clarify matters in terms of finding a joint answer
17 as to how," and then we have to go to the next page in English.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. "How we were to live, if not together as one, then side by side.
20 In this context each group should organise the things for themselves in
21 the way that would suit them best."
22 First question I would like to ask you, sir, is here Mr. Buha is
23 talking about a new nation that didn't work. Now Mr. Traldi asked you
24 about a nation that would disappear from Mr. Koljevic's comments. The
25 question I have for you is in relation to the south Slavs, when they
1 formed Yugoslavia after the world wars, was there a new Yugoslavia
2 nationality that was enacted? That's the first question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the former state of
5 Yugoslavia, there was a possibility, as far as I can remember, for those
6 who wanted to declare themselves as Yugoslavs to do so. Whether they
7 were treated as a separate nation or a separate people or not, I don't
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
10 Q. And the second question is: During -- after the multiparty
11 elections in the 1990s, and especially in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1990,
12 1991, 1992, did people start changing their nationality registers to move
13 away from the Yugoslav nationality that we have discussed?
14 A. A very hard question for me.
15 Q. Fair enough. Then I'll move on. In relation to separating,
16 the -- your statement, I believe in paragraph 4, talks about the Muslims
17 creating the Donji Kraji Kljuc municipality in 1991, and the question I
18 have is: Did the Serb members of local government continue to co-operate
19 with the same Bosnian Muslim leaders that had set up this separate
20 municipality in 1991 even after they had done so?
21 A. Yes, co-operation continued. The Muslim representatives who were
22 elected to the municipality, they came to their jobs regularly, they
23 carried out their duties, discussions were held, certain joint solutions
24 were found. Sometimes it wasn't that easy or quick to reach agreement,
25 but we did live together until the 27th of May when the convoy of the
1 army was attacked.
2 Q. And my last question is in relation to the school, the
3 Nikola Mackic school that Mr. Traldi asked you about.
4 MR. IVETIC: I would like to turn to the transcript that was
5 shown. I think it's 65 ter number 31814. And I think we want page 161
6 of that, which should be approximately one page after the section that
7 was used with you by Mr. Traldi. And it should correlate to transcript
8 page 22676 of the underlying Brdjanin transcript.
9 Q. And I'd like to focus on lines 10 through 15 with you. The
10 question that was posed goes as follows:
11 "Q. And the point that I'm trying to make, Mr. Kalabic, is
12 that you, the Crisis Staff, could have simply told the police they could
13 not use this building as a prison?
14 "A. This did not last for a long time, and I think that the
15 Crisis Staff contributed to the fact that people were not longer
16 interrogated in the school."
17 First question I have for you, sir: Do you stand by your answer
18 as recorded in the Brdjanin transcript as being truthful and accurate?
19 A. I confirm that.
20 Q. And the school in issue, is that -- which school is it, just so
21 we're clear?
22 A. Nikola Mackic in Kljuc. I marked him on the video-clip [as
24 Q. I thank you for your patience. I know we went longer. I have no
25 further questions.
1 MR. IVETIC: And I thank Your Honours for the extra time, and
2 everyone else in the courtroom.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, indeed, everyone else in the courtroom which
4 allows us to conclude the testimony of this witness.
5 Mr. Traldi, unless you are going to spoil the effort.
6 MR. TRALDI: I wouldn't want to spoil the effort. I might ask
7 three questions, if we have a minute for it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Three short questions. I'm looking at the booth and
9 I do not hear of a clear opposition. So, therefore, with much
10 appreciation for the flexibility and the co-operation, you can put three
11 questions to the witness.
12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have --
13 JUDGE ORIE: And the witness is invited to answer those
15 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 07095.
16 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
17 Q. And while this comes up, sir, Mr. Ivetic asked you a moment ago
18 if Omer Filipovic was one of Kljuc's representatives in the ZOBK and
19 suggested to you that he had attended sessions of the ARK Assembly.
20 Now, first, you're aware that in late May 1992 Mr. Filipovic
21 surrendered to the VRS, was taken to Manjaca, and was eventually killed
22 there; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Second --
25 MR. TRALDI: If we can turn to -- I believe it's page 2 in both
1 languages. And, I'm sorry, we need page 3 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. This is a list of representatives in the ARK Assembly. If we
3 look at numbers 89 through 93, we see the Kljuc representatives,
4 including yourself. Those people are all Serbs; right?
5 A. There is a confusion here. The ZOBK, Omer Filipovic and a few
6 other Muslims were deputies there. And when the name was changed from
7 ZOBK to ARK, then the Muslims abandoned that association and they were no
8 longer deputies in Krajina.
9 Let's be clear, there are two terms: The Community of
10 Municipalities of Banja Luka, they were members there; when the name was
11 changed, they were no longer deputies. They abandoned their posts.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document and that will
13 be all the questions I have for this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7095 receives number P7036, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 Just to clarify matters. Earlier we had this discussion about
19 the assembly meetings. Mr. Traldi sought clarification from Mr. Ivetic
20 whether Mr. Filipovic attended such meetings once or twice, referring to
21 the ARK, to the ARK.
22 Do I understand, Witness, that Mr. Filipovic never attended a
23 assembly meeting of the ARK?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He attended the first session after
25 the name was changed. After that, never again.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was the name changed at that session or was it
2 changed before?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before. The name was changed
5 JUDGE ORIE: By whom?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever was authorised to do that,
7 the ARK Assembly. I don't know exactly, but I believe it was the ARK
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what's puzzling me, as a matter of fact.
10 So you say he attended one meeting after the ARK Assembly had changed the
11 name but not after that any further, or don't you know? Please tell us
12 if you don't know.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sure that he attended one
14 after the name was changed and never again after that. I am sure that he
15 did attend one session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Kalabic, this concludes your testimony. I would like to
18 thank you very much for coming to The Hague, a long way, and for having
19 answered all the questions that were put to you. I wish you a safe
20 return home again. You may follow the usher.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day. We will resume tomorrow,
24 Wednesday, the 21st of January, 2015, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30.
25 And do I understand well that we'll hear the testimony of the next
1 witness in closed session?
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day
6 of January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.