Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30414

 1                           Thursday, 22 January 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that there were a few

13     preliminary matters to be raised by the Prosecution.  Can it be done in

14     open session?

15             MR. TRALDI:  The first one, yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, with the first one.

17             MR. TRALDI:  During Mr. Kalabic's testimony earlier this week,

18     65 ter 07102, the collection of receipts from the Holiday Inn on the 14th

19     and 15th of February, 1992 was marked for identification as P7031.  We've

20     uploaded a two-page excerpt, the cover page and Mr. Kalabic's own receipt

21     that was shown to him, as 65 ter 07102a -- and I see my speed may have

22     been off for the transcript, 07102a.  And we understand the Defence has

23     no objection to those two pages being admitted as P7031.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

25             Madam Registrar, the newly uploaded excerpt, two-page excerpt,

Page 30415

 1     known as 07102a may replace what is, at this moment in e-court, the

 2     document underlying P7031 marked for identification and P7031 is admitted

 3     into evidence.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  For the second, if we could go into closed session,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps it's good, since I notice that there

 7     are -- there are some people in the public gallery, that we'll turn into

 8     closed session, and we most likely will remain for approximately -- most

 9     likely not less than half an hour, perhaps even more, we remain in closed

10     session.

11             We turn into closed session.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 30416











11  Pages 30416-30441 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 30442

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Apart from hearing evidence, the Chamber, while in closed

10     session, has also provided the reasons for its decision to grant the

11     Defence request to allow Witness GRM130 to testify with the protective

12     measures of pseudonym, face, and voice distortion.

13             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes past 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the next witness be escorted into the

17     courtroom.  Meanwhile, I use the time to deal with a few short matters.

18             The first one is the remaining issue from the testimony of

19     Novica Andric.  Exhibit P6806 was marked for identification on the 30th

20     of September last year during the testimony of Witness Novica Andric

21     pending clarification by the Prosecution of the existence of an autopsy

22     report.  This can be found at transcript pages 26415 through -416.  On

23     the 18th of December the Prosecution informed Chamber by e-mail of its

24     intention to withdraw its request to tender this document.

25             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to mark Exhibit P6806

Page 30443

 1     as not as admitted.

 2             Then a few words about Defence document D557.  A few pages of

 3     D557, which is a 77-page document entitled "Islamic Declaration" were

 4     used during the testimony of Witness Nenad Kecmanovic.  In September

 5     2014, the Defence advised the Chamber that it would seek to tender the

 6     entire document.  On the 13th of October last year, the Chamber requested

 7     the Defence to file submissions giving the reasons as to why the entire

 8     document should be admitted.

 9             The Chamber set a deadline of the 19th of December of last year

10     for the submissions.  No submission has been received by the Defence, and

11     under these circumstances the admission of D557 is denied without

12     prejudice.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Mr. Kevac, I assume, first of all, our

15     apologies for continuing with the matters we were busy with at the time

16     when you entered the courtroom.  It wasn't very polite of us.

17             Mr. Kevac, before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

18     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  My I

19     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  VELIMIR KEVAC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kevac.

25             Mr. Kevac, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You find

Page 30444

 1     Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

 2     Mr. Mladic.

 3             Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 6        Q.   Good day, Colonel.  Could you please state your full name for the

 7     record.

 8        A.   Velimir Kevac.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  At this time I would like to called 1D1758 in

10     e-court.

11        Q.   Sir, on the first page of this statement we see a signature.  Can

12     you identify for us whose signature this is?

13        A.   This is my signature, yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If we can now turn to the last page in both

15     versions.

16        Q.   Sir, this page also bears a signature.  Are you in a position to

17     identify this signature?

18        A.   My signature.

19        Q.   And, sir, the date which is listed here, does it correspond to

20     your recollection of the date you would have signed this statement?

21        A.   Yes, I put this date in my own hand.

22        Q.   Subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion to

23     read the same in the Serbian language during proofing to check to see if

24     everything is correctly written therein?

25        A.   Yes, I did have that occasion.

Page 30445

 1        Q.   Now I'd like to look at a few corrections with you.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 2 in both languages and

 3     look at paragraph number 1.

 4        Q.   Sir, in the English translation, the lasts line says "Army of

 5     Republika Srpska," whereas, the Serbian original says "Army of the

 6     Republic of Serbia."  Can you please tell us which is correct?

 7        A.   At the time when I provided my statement, I was a member of the

 8     Army of Republic of Serbia.  In the meantime, my status has changed.

 9     After having provided the statement, I was pensioned off, and that

10     happened on the 1st of October last year.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to turn to page 5 in both languages.

13        Q.   And paragraph 13 of your statement.

14             MR. IVETIC:  First of all, I note for the record that whereas the

15     Serbian original has the number 13, the English translation has the

16     number 11 for this paragraph.

17        Q.   Apart from that typographical error, do you have any corrections

18     in relation to the dates for the events that are described in this

19     paragraph?

20        A.   Yes.  At the moment when I provided my statement about what

21     happened on the Velagici-Kljuc road, I know that that happened in late

22     May.  I thought that it was on the 28th or the 29th of May.  I later

23     checked and realised that the event happened on the 27th of May.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to look at paragraph 21 on page 7 in

Page 30446

 1     the Serbian, page 6 in the English.  And, sir, do you have any

 2     corrections here as to the formation of the Kljuc Brigade.

 3        A.   In my statement, I said that the brigade was set up around the

 4     4th of June, 1992.  However, that date is marked as the beginning of the

 5     Kljuc Brigade.  I'm not sure that it was the right date.  However, from

 6     some documents subsequently, I learned that the brigade was set up on a

 7     different date, but I don't know that date.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If we can ...

 9        Q.   If I can ask you now, apart from these corrections that we've

10     gone through in court, do you stand by the remainder of your written

11     statement as being accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And, sir, if I were to ask you questions in court today based

14     upon the same topics as in your statement, would your testimony be, in

15     substance, the same as is recorded in the statement?

16        A.   I would provide the same answers to the questions put to me.

17        Q.   And, sir, in so far as you have taken a solemn declaration today,

18     can we then conclude that the testimony as recorded in your statement is

19     truthful in nature?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender the statement as a

22     public exhibit.  There are no associated exhibits thereto.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1758 receives number D871,

25     Your Honours.

Page 30447

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I would read a short

 3     public summary.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Witness Velimir Kevac is a career military officer

 6     born in Kljuc who spent the entire war in the Army of Republika Srpska

 7     and then later was an officer of the Army of Serbia until he retired in

 8     2014.

 9             As of May 1992, he was assigned to be the assistant chief of

10     staff in charge of operational and educational affairs at the command of

11     the 30th Light Infantry Division in Mrkonjic Grad.  He recalls that

12     officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers of the JNA were given

13     the choice of staying in BiH or leaving when the JNA withdrew.  He later

14     became commander of the Kljuc Brigade on 7 October 1993.

15             Due to lack of professional senior officers, the command of the

16     division and the brigade was forced to fill vacant posts with

17     non-commissioned officers, reserve officers, and some ordinary soldiers

18     who had authority but did not hold a rank.  He recalls the army did not

19     get involved in the work of civilian bodies.  Persons outside the VRS

20     system, civilians, paramilitaries, and police, were not under the

21     jurisdiction of the military judiciary.  The VRS did not exercise command

22     over police units.

23             He recalls that on 27 May 1992, Muslim forces ambushed a column

24     of unarmed soldiers on the road between Velagici and Kljuc.  As a result

25     of this type of attack, the army asked the Muslims of Kljuc to surrender

Page 30448

 1     their weapons.  Not only Muslims, but also Serbs started leaving Kljuc.

 2             That concludes the public summary.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions for the witness, Mr. Ivetic?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'd like to turn to page 2 of your statement which has now

 8     been admitted as Exhibit D871, and I'd like to look at paragraph 3

 9     thereof.

10             Here, you talk of how officers of the JNA were given a

11     possibility to stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina or to leave.  Can you first

12     tell us if this offer was also made to non-Serb officers of the JNA?

13        A.   I can say that the attitude towards all the JNA officers who

14     happened to be serving in Bosnia-Herzegovina where I was, they all

15     received the same offer; that is to say, there was no difference in

16     treatment vis-ā-vis officers who were not Serbs.  There are some examples

17     that officers who were not Serbs remained in the division command and

18     Serbs who remained in the division command.  So my conclusion is that the

19     attitude was the same towards all and the treatment was the same.  Later

20     on when I served in the Army of Yugoslavia, I encountered officers who

21     were from Bosnia-Herzegovina who were for a while members of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska and who later transferred to the Army of Yugoslavia and

23     were ethnic Muslims.

24        Q.   Now I'd like to look at page 3 in both languages, paragraph 6 of

25     your statement.

Page 30449

 1             Sir, the lack of professional senior officers.  First of all, how

 2     did this affect the ability of JNA and later VRS commanders to exercise

 3     their function of command and control?

 4        A.   At the moment when I came to the command of the 30th Division, in

 5     addition to the division commander, in the command division there were a

 6     few more officers who were professionals and there were quite a few

 7     reserve officers and NCOs in the division command and the brigade

 8     command.  The problems were reflected in the following:  Reserve officers

 9     were less capable than active-duty officers, and their knowledge and

10     abilities were such that it was the active officers that had to bear the

11     brunt of all the activities that were required.

12             They worked on documents, elaborated plans, and worked on all the

13     activities that they were supposed to share as the staff as a whole.

14     There were particular problems with brigade commands.  Apart from the

15     brigade commander, there would be, say, one or two more active-duty

16     officers, and the rest were reserve officers.

17             As for the level of battalion, very few battalions had commanders

18     who were professional officers.  For the most part, battalion commanders

19     were reserve officers.

20             As for company commanders, it was mostly reserve NCOs or soldiers

21     who had the appropriate level of schooling but not military training for

22     the duties of commander, komandir.  This made it difficult for the units

23     to function properly and carry out their regular tasks.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'd like to seek clarification of one of

25     the previous answers of the witness.  That was about the offer for JNA

Page 30450

 1     officers to stay in Bosnia and Herzegovina or to leave.

 2             You were asked whether this offer was also made to non-Serb

 3     officers of the JNA, and you said:

 4             "They all received the same offer."

 5             A few lines later, you said:

 6             "There are some examples that officers who were not Serbs

 7     remained in the division command and Serbs who remained in the division

 8     command."

 9             Then you said:

10             "So my conclusion is that the attitude was the same towards all

11     and the treatment was the same."

12             Now, do you know whether they got a similar offer or did you

13     conclude from a few examples that they must have been treated similarly

14     because otherwise you wouldn't have found non-Serbs in commanding

15     positions?  Which of the two:  Do you know it; or did you conclude it on

16     the basis of your observations?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found out through direct talks

18     with these officers that they stayed in the Army of Republika Srpska and

19     that there were no consequences involved because they could stay without

20     any consequences in terms of them staying in the territory of

21     Republika Srpska.  That is to say, there were no obligations for them all

22     to return to Serbia.  They could have --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let me stop you there.  I'm not primarily

24     interested in those who stayed, because I take it they were allowed to

25     stay otherwise they wouldn't have been there.  I'm more interested in the

Page 30451

 1     others, whether they got a similar offer, whether you know or it whether

 2     you do not know it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the offer, I don't know

 4     what the offer was, but I do know --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you don't know what the offer is, then I

 6     understand that you can't tell us what was offered to either some or all

 7     of them.

 8             You also told us that you later found Muslim officers in the Army

 9     of Yugoslavia.  Do you know whether they had freely opted to go to that

10     army or don't you know?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I encountered officers in the Army

12     of Yugoslavia who had been born in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     and belonged to the Muslim people.  Their own choice was to stay on in

14     the Army of Yugoslavia.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so they freely opted not to stay in Bosnia but

16     to move to the Army of Yugoslavia -- to -- or to stay in the -- I take it

17     that they were -- they had been JNA officers but that to stay with -- on

18     the -- if I could say so, with the Serb colleagues in Serbia?  Yugoslavia

19     still then at the time.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one follow-up question to you, sir.

24             How many Muslim officers of the JNA moved to the VRS?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of that, how many

Page 30452

 1     Muslim officers there were in the VRS, but I know that there were some.

 2     I don't know how many.  I don't know the figure.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you give me some names?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know certain officers.  One of

 5     them worked with me at the Military Academy and he was in the VRS, and

 6     right now he is a Ph.D. holder at the Military Academy.  For personal

 7     reasons, I would not like to communicate his name.  If there is some

 8     other way of me telling you his name, could we do it that way?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to know the name, but we can move

10     into private session, if you wish.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can move into private session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 30453

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic.

20             Mr. Lukic, could you take care that Mr. Mladic does not speak

21     aloud.  I can hear his voice.  Everyone can hear his voice.  And the best

22     when he consults is to take off his earphones then ...

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Judge Moloto has a question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, at page 37, line 8, you say when you were

Page 30454

 1     asked a question about the offer being made to other people, you said:

 2             "As regards the offer, I don't know what the offer was..."

 3             Now, is this offer something different from the offer that you

 4     talk about in your statement, namely, to decide whether to stay with the

 5     JNA or to go to the VRS or ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When speaking to

 7     Major Milorad Markovic from whom I took over at the command of the

 8     30th Division, I found out that he was going back to the Army of

 9     Yugoslavia and that those who wished to remain in the units of the Army

10     of Republika Srpska can do so.  So from that conversation with him, I

11     found out that they had this possibility to choose whether they would go

12     to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia together with the JNA or whether

13     they would stay on in the Army of Republika Srpska.

14             One of them who was born in Serbia and who stayed in the Army of

15     Republika Srpska is --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you there.  All I wanted to find out

17     is did you or did you not know what the offer was?  Because what you say

18     at this line that I referred you to seems to be different from what you

19     tell us in your statement.  So you did know what the offer was?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The offer, or, rather, the order, I

21     mean, on the withdrawal of the JNA from the territory of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I did not see that, so I cannot confirm that that is

23     the document, whereas in a conversation --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 30455

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, getting back to the issue of the lack of professional

 3     officer cadres, what measures were under taken in relation to those

 4     reserve non-commissioned officers or soldiers to assist them in better

 5     fulfilling the role of their positions most professionally and

 6     efficiently?

 7        A.   When starting to work in the command of the division, part of the

 8     units of the division were deployed at various positions and part of them

 9     were in the areas of disposition.  These units that were in the areas of

10     disposition were duty-bound to organise the training of soldiers, NCOs,

11     and officers, and in this way prepare for the realisation of the set

12     tasks.  The training of soldiers who were at positions was carried out at

13     the positions themselves, and the professional officers provided guidance

14     to these commanders, komandirs, while at the same time training them in

15     terms of how they would carry out their tasks in the period that would

16     follow.

17             After a while, in the Army of Republika Srpska, this problem was

18     being resolved through the centre for training NCOs and officers in the

19     former school for training armoured units in Banja Luka.  That's where

20     candidates for platoon commanders were sent as well as candidates for

21     officers' duties, and they were trained for duties in the Army of

22     Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   If we could now turn to page 5 in both languages of your

24     statement, and at paragraphs 13 and 14 you discuss the ambush by armed

25     Muslims of the unarmed JNA withdrawing from Croatia.

Page 30456

 1             Prior to this time-period, how would you describe the situation

 2     in Kljuc municipality?  Had there been any combat or involvement of the

 3     JNA prior to this point.

 4        A.   To the best of my knowledge, in the territory of the municipality

 5     of Kljuc there weren't any combat activities.  There were individual

 6     cases, one or two cases, of killings, but I'm not sure where -- units of

 7     the VRS or, rather, the former JNA, did not intervene at all.  All of

 8     that was within the domain of the civilian police.  The situation in the

 9     territory of the municipality of Kljuc was peaceful.  I personally was in

10     Kljuc.  When I came from Croatia to my parents, I was in town, and I did

11     not notice any units of the army in the city itself, and the population

12     lived a normal life.

13        Q.   Now, in paragraph 15 on the same page --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you say -- you say when you returned.  When

17     exactly was that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I returned, I came to

19     Republika Srpska or, rather, to Kljuc on the 13th of May, 1992.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you said everything remained quiet there

21     up till the ambush?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from a few incidents.  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 30457

 1        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 15, you mention that Serbs in Kljuc feared

 2     another horrible massacre like that perpetrated in World War II by the

 3     Ustashas.  Can you tell us a little bit more about the scale or scope of

 4     that massacre from World War II?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the witness qualified to specifically talk about

 6     this, and isn't this a matter which has been dealt with in various ways

 7     in various proceedings, and have you attempted to reach an agreement with

 8     the Prosecution about the events during the Second World War, mainly, in

 9     terms of the scale of those that have suffered under that massacre.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, my understanding is this is the first

11     witness from Kljuc municipality that we've asked this question to, so I

12     don't know what other evidence Your Honours is referring to about Kljuc.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You want the scope of that massacre in Kljuc?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that wasn't clear from your question.  I think

16     it was a massacre like that perpetrated in World War II which is, I would

17     say, could --

18             MR. IVETIC:  My question says Kljuc, Your Honours.  Read one word

19     after you have stopped, "in Kljuc."  It says:

20             "... Serbs in Kljuc feared another horrible massacre like that

21     perpetrated..."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.  Serbs in Kljuc can fear a

23     repetition of the massacre which took place overall in that period of

24     time, so when I said you didn't refer to Kljuc, I didn't intend to say

25     that you didn't refer to Serbs in Kljuc but about the massacre why the --

Page 30458

 1     either in the whole of the country in World War II or in Kljuc.  But I

 2     now do understand that you specifically want this witness to tell us what

 3     the dimensions of the massacre were as it appeared in Kljuc in the

 4     Second World War.

 5             Could you give us, for example, number of victims?  Serb victims.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through history which I studied in

 7     elementary school, I learned that Serb people in the area of Grmec and

 8     Kozara was taken to Jasenovac for execution, and the mountain is in part

 9     of the municipality of Kljuc.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say the events you're describing is about

11     persons of the area of Kozara but they were then taken into the territory

12     of Kljuc.

13             Please proceed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, they were not taken to

15     the territory of Kljuc.  They were taken from Grmec and Kozara; that is

16     to say, including the area of Kljuc.  Serbs were taken to Jasenovac.

17     Part of the Serbs in Kljuc -- from Kljuc were killed in the villages in

18     the municipality of Kljuc.  I cannot give you the exact number.  My

19     grandfather told me that a brother of his was captured while he was

20     herding his cattle.  He was a child.  Together with the livestock he was

21     taken to Croatia, and he went missing in Sator Planina.  His body was

22     never found.

23             In addition to that example from my very own family, in many Serb

24     families in the territory of the Kljuc municipality, I heard of identical

25     examples; namely, that one or two family members, women and children

Page 30459

 1     included, were killed in the territory of the municipality of Kljuc.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I do understand that you learned about

 3     cases during that massacre in the Second World War.

 4             Could you tell us, as far as Kljuc is concerned, the scale, the

 5     scope, approximately?  Are we talking about 100 people, 1.000 people,

 6     10.000 people?  More or less?  What did you learn about the scale of that

 7     massacre.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to what I heard about

 9     these events, it is several hundred persons who were killed in the

10     territory of the Kljuc municipality.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   From where did the perpetrators hail for these World War II

14     crimes?

15        A.   In the territory of the Kljuc municipality, in the Second World

16     War, there were Ustasha formations that were organised, and it was

17     Muslims and Croats from the territory of the municipality of Kljuc that

18     formed these units.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, where do you get this knowledge

20     from?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that from conversations

22     with people, all the people who survived the Second World War and who

23     told me about their neighbours, Croats and Muslims, who had participated

24     in the crimes and who had taken Serbs to be executed.  It was well known

25     in the territory of Kljuc municipality who sided up with the Ustasha

Page 30460

 1     formations during the Second World War.  Some of them were put on trial

 2     after the Second World War and convicted.  However, there were others for

 3     whom it was never proven that they were members of those Ustasha

 4     formations.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could we move to another subject?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not because it's not interesting but this witness

 8     might not be the most qualified person to tell about it.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Understood.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 6 in the B/C/S while

12     staying on the same page in the English.

13        Q.   In paragraph 16, sir, you say that:

14             "The non-Serb population in the division's zone of responsibility

15     was protected, especially in the area of mixed populations ..."

16             Who was tasked with this protection of the population?

17        A.   The MUP or the civilian police was in charge of that.  The

18     military had no jurisdiction over the population in the territory of any

19     municipality unless things were happening on the confrontation line

20     between the BiH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we can turn to page 6, in the English as

22     well.

23        Q.   In paragraph 18 where you say that the army asked the Muslims to

24     surrender weapons, can you tell us if you know how the army in Kljuc

25     asked for weapons to be surrendered, for example, from those Muslim

Page 30461

 1     forces that this been involved in the ambush of 27 May 1992?

 2        A.   At that time, I was at the command post in the Kula barracks near

 3     Mrkonjic Grad.  The commander and some officers from the staff went to

 4     Kljuc to see the president of the municipality.  They wanted to regulate

 5     the attack on the JNA soldiers' convoy.  The commander took measures for

 6     the units from the 30th Division, a battalion from Sitnica, to be sent to

 7     the Mrkonjic Grad-Kljuc road and to block exit from Kljuc.  From the

 8     Laniste sector, units of the 2nd Krajina Corps, i.e., the engineers

 9     regiment and the military police, were deployed.  And from Sanski Most,

10     units from the 6th Sana Brigade were deployed.  The city was therefore

11     blocked and the division commander spoke to Omer Filipovic, I heard that

12     from a conversation, asked Omer Filipovic to order the members of

13     unlawful Territorial Defence to surrender weapons and to be disarmed.

14     Omer Filipovic at first did not accept that.  And then I learned that the

15     division commander ... ordered a salvo to be fired in warning.  After

16     that, Omer Filipovic accepted that members of the Territorial Defence

17     would be disarmed.  After that, there were no combat activities in the

18     territory of Kljuc municipality.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Now, if we could turn to page 7 in the B/C/S,

21     staying on this page in the English.

22        Q.   You identify in paragraph 20 your parents as the source for the

23     information in this paragraph.  Where were they situated at the time?

24        A.   My parents were in Kljuc.  Their house was between two Muslim

25     villages.  Our closest neighbours were Muslims.  They knew how Muslims

Page 30462

 1     felt in the area because they spoke to those Muslims.

 2        Q.   And what knowledge did you gain as to Muslims that left Kljuc?

 3     What -- what happened to them when they reached ABiH territory?

 4        A.   Those Muslims who left Kljuc in 1992 and spread across the

 5     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, most of them were able bodied and he

 6     were thus mobilised into the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7     They were engaged against the Army of Republika Srpska.  Some of the

 8     Territorial Defence from Kljuc municipality who did not surrender weapons

 9     managed to break through and arrived in the territory of Bihac where they

10     joined the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  One of them, my

11     neighbour, Nevzad, Djeric, also known as Kedjo, was a member of the

12     BiH Army.

13             Later on I heard that he participated as a member of

14     Fikret Abdic's army and that he fought against the Republika Srpska Army

15     around Bihac.  As a result of that, their relatives who had remained in

16     the territory of Kljuc feared for their safety because their relatives

17     joined BiH Army and were fighting against the Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   Sir, if I can ask for one clarification.  You're recorded in the

19     transcript as having said about Kedjo, that he joined Fikret Abdic's army

20     and that he fought against the Republika Srpska army around Bihac.  Is

21     that what you said or did you say something different?

22        A.   At first, Muslims were on the side of the BiH Army, and then when

23     the conflict broke out between Muslims loyal to Fikret Abdic and

24     Alija Izetbegovic in 1993, I heard that Nevzad Djeric, also known as

25     Kedjo, was fighting on the side of Fikret Abdic.

Page 30463

 1        Q.   And who was he fighting against?

 2        A.   Fikret Abdic's formations were fighting against the 5th Corps of

 3     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not against the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   Now, in relation to the activities of searching the terrain and

 6     seizing weapons described in paragraph 18 of your statement, what was the

 7     role of the 30th Division?

 8        A.   At first when things started happening in Kljuc municipality, the

 9     commander of the 30th Division with some of its troops, participated in

10     the disarming of paramilitary formations of the Muslim Territorial

11     Defence in the territory of Kljuc municipality.  After a certain while, a

12     decision was made that the Kljuc Brigade would be set up, the 17th Light

13     Infantry Brigade, which would be a part of the 2nd Krajina Corps command.

14     That unit pursued activities to search and scour the territory in order

15     to continue disarming the Territorial Defence.  As a result, the

16     jurisdiction of the 30th Division for this -- over this territory ceased.

17     The division commander submitted a written report to the commander of the

18     1st Krajina Corps, General Talic, informing him that in the territory of

19     the municipality of Kljuc a new brigade, the Kljuc Brigade, was being set

20     up, and that they would be taking over with regard to the disarming of

21     the remaining Muslim forces in that territory.

22        Q.   Now, in relation to the disarming activities, did you have

23     occasion to learn of any killing of Muslim males detained in Velagici, in

24     a school, for instance?

25        A.   As for what happened in Velagici, I heard about that.  I heard

Page 30464

 1     that the military police carried out an on-site investigation and that

 2     the perpetrators of the crime were apprehended and brought to the

 3     military investigating prison in Banja Luka and that proceedings were

 4     initiated against them.

 5        Q.   Okay.  My last question has to do with paragraph 22 --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Which -- if we could scroll down in the English,

 7     it's at the bottom of the page.

 8        Q.   Here you talk of exhaustion of soldiers at the front and a very

 9     low morale.  What was the primary cause of the low morale of the troops?

10        A.   When I joined the Kljuc Brigade, the situation in the brigade was

11     rather difficult.  The troops were engaged in the Bihac theatre of war,

12     around Milic, or, rather, in Eastern Bosnia, in the Jajce theatre of war,

13     and they had been engaged for two years already.  Their problems

14     consisted of poor financial conditions of their families, the families of

15     fallen soldiers and the wounded.  On the other hand, some of the troops

16     who had been demobilised were engaged in a number of companies in Kljuc.

17     Their financial situation was much better, and their families were much

18     better off as a result of that.

19             A lot of effort was invested by the Kljuc municipality

20     authorities to deal with those problems.  They helped the families of

21     those members by sending them food packages containing flour, oil, salt,

22     and other bare necessities.  That improved the morale and the situation

23     in the brigade units.

24             As a result of all that, there were fewer absentees from units.

25     That was reduced because the combatants realised that their presence in

Page 30465

 1     the units meant that their families would live better.

 2        Q.   Colonel, I thank you for answering my questions.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that's the end of my direct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             Mr. Kevac, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in

 6     20 minutes.  You'll then be cross-examined by counsel for the

 7     Prosecution.  You may now follow the usher.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes past midday.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I could briefly use the time in relation to

13     Defence document D773.

14             A salary slip which was tendered through

15     Witness Sveto Veselinovic, as D773.  On the 19th of December of last

16     year, the Prosecution filed a submission objecting to the admission of

17     the document arguing that it did not illustrate what the Defence

18     suggested and that the witness even conceded as much.  The Prosecution

19     concluded that this affected the document's probative value making it

20     inadmissible under Rule 89(C).  The Chamber has considered the

21     Prosecution's objections but finds them to relate mostly to the weight,

22     if any, to be attached to the document, and under these circumstances the

23     Chamber admits D773 into evidence under seal.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by

Page 30466

 1     Ms. Edgerton.  You'll find her to your right.  And Ms. Edgerton is

 2     counsel for the Prosecution.

 3             Please proceed.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kevac.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   Can you hear me all right?

 8        A.   I can hear you really well.

 9        Q.   Perfect.  The first question I'd like to ask you relates to

10     somebody you referred to by name in your written evidence.  It's

11     Colonel Galic as your division commander.  Now when you refer to him,

12     just so our record is absolutely clear, you mean Stanislav Galic who went

13     to take up command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in September 1992;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.  Stanislav Galic was colonel at the time, and he later

16     joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

17        Q.   Now, just staying with your written evidence for a few minutes,

18     you talked about reports you prepared for Colonel Galic and that was at

19     paragraph 5.  It's correct, isn't it, that some of those -- the

20     information in some of those reports would be incorporated into the

21     1st Krajina Corps' daily combat reports to the VRS Main Staff; right?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we can have the page references so

23     that the e-court can be displayed.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Paragraph 5.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's page 3, I think.  We are usually thinking in

Page 30467

 1     terms of e-court pages.  And I'm talking about the English.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Would you like me --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it page 3 in English?  And --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  3 in both languages, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  3 in both languages.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   Would you like me to repeat the question, Mr. Kevac, or did you

 9     understand it okay?

10        A.   I understand your question.  However, I'm still waiting for the

11     right page to appear on my screen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, if you would -- we have a bit of a technical

13     problem.  Ms. Edgerton, I take it that you have the text exactly, so

14     perhaps you read to the witness what you wanted to draw his attention to.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I could actually do one better, Your Honour, and I

16     could give the witness a copy in his own language of his own statement so

17     he could have that security of checking himself.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any need to inspect, Mr. Ivetic?

19             The usher could assist in giving a copy of the B/C/S version of

20     his statement to the witness.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   So just have a look at paragraph 5.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  So my question is:  The information you put in those daily

25     reports that you prepared for Galic, some of that would be included or

Page 30468

 1     incorporated into General Talic's reports to the VRS Main Staff; right?

 2        A.   The system of reporting along the command line was as follows:

 3     Subordinated units reported to their superiors; and the superiors would

 4     then use the information from those reports to compile reports to their

 5     superiors.  Our highest superior was --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the commands were subordinated

 8     to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The contents of the

 9     reports included some of the information that subordinated units and

10     commands of the corps submitted to the corps command.  I cannot confirm

11     that the information that we submitted was conveyed to the Main Staff.

12     However, the contents were co-ordinated with the reports of the division

13     commands and the brigade commands that were subordinated to the corps

14     command.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now your department, operations and training, was the

17     department within your division that would prepare orders, maps,

18     everything required for military operations; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So the decisions that were taken based on -- no, I'll just leave

21     that.

22             Now, to go on to another point that you discussed in your written

23     evidence, paragraph 21, if you want to have a look, and you spoke about

24     it today at temporary transcript page 32.  I want to deal with the

25     formation of the 17th Kljuc Brigade and just add to that a little bit

Page 30469

 1     with this question:  The initial organisational steps to form those units

 2     that were eventually included in the 17th Kljuc Brigade were made in

 3     April of 1992.  You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?

 4        A.   I don't know that the first step towards the formation of the

 5     Kljuc Brigade were taken in the month of April 1992 because I joined the

 6     division command only on the 13th of May, 1992.  So I cannot confirm nor

 7     did I ever see a document that could confirm that the first steps in the

 8     formation of the brigade were taken in the month of April 1992.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, could we have a look, please, as 65 ter

10     number 31832.

11        Q.   And it's a copy of an interview that --

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll just wait a second.  I think we might have a

13     technical problem.  Uh-huh.

14        Q.   It's a copy of an interview you gave to the Banja Luka newspaper

15     Podgrmecke Novine in 1994.  That's your picture in the document in your

16     language you see in front of you; right?  They've even got a photo of

17     you?

18        A.   I can't see the document or the photo.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we all have it on our screen.  Could we verify

20     why the witness doesn't have the ... it's not on the witness's screen.  I

21     see from here that it's on some of our screens, but the witness should

22     have a look at it as well.  Is there any ...

23             Is it possible to make a printout so that the witness could have

24     a look at ...

25             Madam Registrar, is there any way to make a print of it?  Is ...

Page 30470

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that we need someone else to resolve

 3     this technical problem.  But there is a printout.  I see even

 4     Ms. Edgerton has one available already.  Could it be given to the

 5     witness.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thanks to my efficient colleague Ms. Stewart, of

 7     course.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, she changes position from commander in-chief to

 9     colleague.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   So, Mr. Kevac, just have a look at the very first paragraph of

12     this interview you gave.  It's an interview where you talk about the

13     17th Brigade, and you said in the second sentence:  After being formed in

14     April, the first war operations in which it participated were the Kljuc

15     operations.  So --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam, sorry, Mr. Lukic has got -- [Microphone not

17     activated].

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And something came to my mind as well.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  I'm not sure that it's correct saying that the

20     witness says when the quotation marks are after that selection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's unclear whether the introduction reflect the

22     words of the witness, Ms. Edgerton, so therefore you can't just put it to

23     him as if they did.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 30471

 1             You may proceed but rephrase your question or put another

 2     question to the witness.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kevac, that's your interview, first of all; right?  That's a

 5     picture of you and you're having a good read of it, I can see.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now just let me ask the question.  Is it correct that

 8     the corps of the unit that came to be the 17th Light Brigade, the

 9     17th Kljuc Light brigade was formed in April?  Yes or no.

10        A.   I cannot confirm this information because the 1st Battalion that

11     became part of the 17th Kljuc Brigade was established in the month of

12     April as part of the 1st Sipovo Light Infantry Brigade in the

13     30th Division.  At the time the 17 Kljuc Light Infantry Brigade did not

14     exist.  It was still not known whether that unit would ever become part

15     of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade.

16             This is a newspaper article which I hadn't --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me.  You were not invited to comment on

18     it.  You were invited whether you could confirm something, and you were

19     asked to say yes or no.

20             Now, do I understand - because that was the initial question by

21     Ms. Edgerton - were there units established in April 1992 which later

22     turned out to become elements of the 17th Kljuc Brigade?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when exactly the

24     1st Battalion of the Sipovo Brigade was established.  It was deployed in

25     the Sitnica sector.  I know that that battalion became part of the

Page 30472

 1     17th Light Infantry Brigade when the brigade was established in the month

 2     of June 1992.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   Now ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- such discussions should not be -- could I ask,

 7     no such discussions just next to the witness.  That disturbs the

 8     tranquility which we need.  If there's any problem to be resolved, then

 9     try to resolve it in another location.

10             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And my hesitation was only that, that

12     I felt the witness was being distracted.

13        Q.   Now, just to move onto another area, I just want to talk about

14     the shelling of Pudin Han, which you told us today at temporary

15     transcript page 47 that General Galic ordered.

16             Now, first of all, Pudin Han, it's not a city.  It's a big

17     village or at the time is a big village or a very small town; right?

18        A.   In my statement, I did not say that Pudin Han was shelled and

19     that it was a city.  I stated that Colonel Galic ordered that a warning

20     be fired between Pudin Han and Kljuc where there was an ambush of the

21     Muslim Territorial Defence against the JNA.

22             Now where the shells fell, I cannot say exactly, but I know that

23     after these few shells fell, Omer Filipovic accepted the disarming of the

24     Muslim Territorial Defence.

25        Q.   Can you just tell me, Pudin Han at the time was a pretty small

Page 30473

 1     place, wasn't it?  It had a population of about 900 people.  Is that

 2     fair?

 3        A.   Pudin Han is a small place and I don't think that the population

 4     was 900.  I think it was less.  I don't know exactly what the figure

 5     might be.  Pudin Han is linked to the village of Velagici, and in this

 6     entire area, there weren't that many inhabitants.

 7        Q.   All right.  And this area, Pudin Han, that's predominantly -- or

 8     that was predominantly Muslim; right?

 9        A.   In the area of Pudin Han, there were Muslims and in the immediate

10     vicinity there was a gypsy settlement where there were some Roma.

11        Q.   Now, this shelling, the warning shots you discuss in your

12     evidence this morning, that was part of an operation commanded by Galic,

13     wasn't it?

14        A.   I don't know who the commander of the entire operation was

15     because I've already said that units of the 30th Division took part in

16     that operation, as well as units of the 2nd Krajina Corps from the

17     direction of Laniste, and units of the 1st Krajina Corps from the

18     direction of Sanski Most.  I don't have any information to the effect

19     that all these units were commanded by Galic, but I know from some

20     information that on the premises of the municipality of Kljuc

21     Colonel Galic, through the municipality, had a direct telephone line with

22     Omer Filipovic from whom he asked that they all surrender.

23        Q.   Now, this operation wasn't only against the village of Pudin Han.

24     It was against, actually, Velagici, it was against Hadzici, it was

25     against Donji Ramici as well; right?

Page 30474

 1        A.   I cannot confirm that that operation was aimed at all of those

 2     villages because in the direct conversation between Colonel Galic and

 3     Omer Filipovic an agreement was reached on the surrender of the Muslim

 4     units in that area.

 5        Q.   I want to ask you about the operation and maybe I'll help you by

 6     showing you a document.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's look at --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could I seek clarification.  You

 9     testified about -- "that a salvo was ordered to be fired in warning."

10             Could you explain?  You said you didn't know where that shell or

11     that -- those -- those projectiles landed.  What do you understand by a

12     salvo in warning; that is, to fire explicitly with the intension not to

13     hit any relevant target?  Of course, a projectile must fall somewhere but

14     just in a meadow.  Or do you mean by a salvo in warning that a few

15     projectiles were fired that may hit whatever such as to warn them not to

16     continue the way they did until that moment?  Which of the two is it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, I mean, this salvo of

18     warning was aimed at the area where the ambush was against the JNA

19     column.  I don't know what the target of the shells might be, but the

20     objective was to show the resoluteness of the army to disarm the

21     paramilitaries in that area.  Three or four shells were fired in order to

22     make it known to them that the army was resolute in disarming them and

23     that they should accept that voluntarily so that there would be to

24     unnecessary casualties.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  How long was it after the ambush that these

Page 30475

 1     projectiles were fired?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ambush was in the morning, and

 3     these shells were fired in the afternoon.  I don't know what the exact

 4     time would be.  I cannot remember.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And the suggestion was that you would hit the

 6     perpetrators who would still be at the place of the ambush?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, yes.  I cannot confirm

 8     for sure what the objective of the attack was for these shells, but I

 9     assume that it's the positions of the Muslim Territorial Defence that had

10     ambushed the JNA.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's just an assumption that those were

12     targeted.  And you say at the place of the ambush.

13             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   When you say a salvo, a salvo of what?

16        A.   A salvo is a type of fire --

17        Q.   No, I --

18        A.   -- that can be carried out --

19        Q.   I just wanted to know.  You said "a salvo was fired in warning."

20     A salvo of what was fired in warning?  Were mortars fired in warning?

21        A.   I'm not sure what pieces were used.  I think it was mortars

22     because in the division in that area there weren't any other artillery

23     pieces that could have been used for targeting that area.

24        Q.   And a salvo means more than one.  So how many were fired?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness has answered the question by

Page 30476

 1     referring to three or four.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Then I'll move on.

 4        Q.   Now, it's correct, isn't it, Mr. Kevac, that this operation was

 5     an operation that involved the 3rd Battalion that we've been discussing;

 6     right?

 7        A.   I've already said that from the 30th Division, one battalion was

 8     involved, the battalion that was in the area of Sitnica.  Was it the 3rd

 9     or which one it was, I cannot say for sure because I don't have the exact

10     number.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's have a look at P3749, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could we please go back?

14     I have just seen the picture on the monitor, the one that has to do with

15     the newspaper article, and my insignia are that of a captain first class

16     and what is stated is that I'm a major.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a possibility that they used an old youth

18     picture from you?  Let's proceed.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, this is a document that's dated 28 May 1992, and it's

21     going -- it's a regular combat report from the command of the

22     1st Infantry Brigade at the Sipovo command post to the command of the

23     30th Infantry Division.  And if we go over in B/C/S to page 2, in fact,

24     both documents, the -- thank you.  The second-to-last bullet point of --

25     the second-to-last paragraph of bullet point 2, you see that this

Page 30477

 1     document says --

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And it appears in English at the bottom of the

 3     page and in B/C/S about halfway through the page.

 4        Q.   It says:

 5             "Because of the situation in Kljuc, the 3rd Battalion of the

 6     1st Infantry Brigade was made fully combat ready, as ordered.  And if the

 7     Muslims don't surrender their weapons by 27 May at noon, the battalion

 8     will carry out a mopping up operation."

 9             So, Mr. Kevac, this is a daily combat report that would have come

10     through your department, and it says -- it confirms, doesn't it, that the

11     3rd Battalion is ordered to take part in a mopping-up operation in the

12     area; right?

13        A.   This is a report --

14             MR. IVETIC:  I object as that's not what the document says, at

15     least not in English.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

17             MR. IVETIC:  "To be made combat ready," which is a different

18     military terminology than being ordered to take part in an operation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think "combat ready" preceded the mopping up

20     operation in the text, but let's have a look at it in detail.

21             Perhaps you read it literally, Ms. Edgerton, so that we have no

22     problem.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

24        Q.   "Because of the situation in Kljuc, the 3rd Battalion of the

25     1st Infantry Brigade was made fully combat ready, as ordered.  If the

Page 30478

 1     Muslims do not surrender their weapons by 27 May ... at noon [sic], the

 2     battalion will carry out a mopping up operation."

 3             Now, you said was it the 3rd or which one it was, I can't say for

 4     sure because I don't have the exact number.  This gives you the exact

 5     number, doesn't it, Mr. Kevac?  The 3rd was involved in the operation?

 6        A.   That's right.  That's right, I've confirmed that one battalion

 7     from the 1st Infantry Brigade, it says here, it's a light infantry

 8     brigade, of Sipovo.  It was involved to block the road between

 9     Mrkonjic Grad and Kljuc, and in this report that was confirmed.  The

10     battalion was involved in the blockade of part of the area around the

11     municipality of Kljuc, and up until the talks and negotiations with

12     Omer Filipovic and after the negotiations with Omer Filipovic it was not

13     involved in mopping up the area around the territory of Kljuc.

14        Q.   All right.  Then if -- just hearing that evidence you've just

15     given, I'd like you to have a look at another document.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  It's P3923.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can I just have a look at the

18     first page of this document.

19             Thanks.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  If we could go to P3923, English page

21     59 and B/C/S page 77.

22        Q.   Now this, Mr. Kevac, is a copy of the 5th Corps and then the

23     1st Krajina Corps notebook, the duty officer notebook, and I say

24     5th Corps/1st Krajina Corps because it covers the transitional period.

25     And if you'd just have a look at the entry for 30 May 1992, under the

Page 30479

 1     heading: "30th pd," it says:

 2             "On 29 May, at 1300 hours, a search of the terrain commenced in

 3     the areas of Pudin Han, Velagici, Donji Ramici and Sehici."

 4             And then if you go down to the bottom of the page, it talks or it

 5     identifies which forces are engaged and there is a heading to that

 6     effect.  And it talks -- it says that included in those are the

 7     Dvor Corps, a battalion from Bosanski Petrovac, two platoons of the

 8     engineers' regiment, a military police company, a company from the

 9     Manjaca training centre, and from the -- your division a military police

10     company and the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Infantry Brigade along with

11     forces of the Kljuc Territorial Defence and a police battalion from the

12     Kljuc public security station.

13             Now, you've just said that after negotiations with

14     Omer Filipovic, this battalion wasn't involved in mopping up the area

15     around the territory of Kljuc, but your corps's own duty notebook

16     confirms that it was.  You're contradicted by the contemporaneous

17     document; correct?

18        A.   I've already given you an answer for that day - that is to say,

19     the 27th of May - that the units of the 3rd Battalion or the

20     1st Sipovo Brigade were not searching the area.  Rather, they were in a

21     state of readiness to proceed to that mission.  After the surrender that

22     was declared by Omer Filipovic, a number of members of the Territorial

23     Defence abided by his order and voluntarily surrendered their weapons.

24     However, a number of members of the Territorial Defence did not do that.

25             According to the information that the public security station of

Page 30480

 1     Kljuc had about the composition of the population and everything else

 2     that exists in that area, it could be seen that all of those who had

 3     weapons did not go out and surrender their weapons.  Therefore, the

 4     decision was taken to search the area and search for weapons and armed

 5     persons that would constitute a potential danger for the Serb population

 6     and the units of the Army of Republika Srpska in that area.

 7        Q.   And the 3rd Battalion took part in that mopping up operation;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  The 3rd Battalion from the 1st Sipovo Light Brigade or

10     rather the 1st Sipovo Brigade was involved as part of the forces of the

11     30th Division in the realisation of that task.

12             I don't know exactly how many days later it became part of the

13     17th Kljuc Light Infantry Brigade and continued carrying out their tasks

14     within the 17th Light Kljuc Brigade and it remained within that brigade

15     up until the end of the war.

16        Q.   Now, you know, don't you, that, as a result of the shelling of

17     Pudin Han, people - civilians - were killed?  You know that, don't you?

18        A.   I did not have that information that in the shelling there were

19     victims.  I was not in the area, and I could not receive such a report or

20     read such a report from the units that submitted their reports to the

21     division command.

22        Q.   Mr. Kevac, you must know because Marko Adamovic, the man who was

23     the 17th Battalion's deputy commander for morale and legal affairs, and

24     Bosko Lukic were both convicted of crimes related to the attack on

25     Pudin Han and other locations on the 28th of May, 1992.  They were

Page 30481

 1     convicted on an appeal decision -- as a result of an appeal decision in

 2     December 2013.  So you know, don't you?

 3        A.   I heard that crimes had been committed and that there were

 4     victims in that area.  As for the area of Pudin Han, casualties after the

 5     shelling, that I didn't know about.  Then the Velagici school I heard

 6     about the victims there, and also that the persons who had perpetrated

 7     that crime were arrested, and that the school in Velagici an

 8     investigation was carried out and the perpetrators of that crime were

 9     arrested.  As for --

10        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Kevac, Mr. Kevac, if you just focus on the area

11     that I'm talking about, and I was talking about Pudin Han, you could stay

12     here for a lot shorter time instead of repeating your evidence in chief.

13     So just with that I'd like to move on to another area.  All right?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Nothing.  I thought that counsel was going to say

16     that he had not answered the question, which he had, at lines --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, sometimes somewhere in the answer you find a

18     response to the questions.  That is what happens.

19             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, you also said today that when you arrived Kljuc on the 13th

22     or 14th of May, you found everything really very calm.  Now related to

23     that, I just want to ask you a couple of more questions.

24             It was -- everything was calm -- it's correct, isn't it, that

25     everything was calm because just a week before you got there, units from

Page 30482

 1     the JNA 9th Corps, units from the 5th Corps, including a battalion from

 2     the 6th Partisan Brigade, and the 3rd Battalion that we've been talking

 3     about had executed a partial take-over of authority in Kljuc.  That's why

 4     everything was calm, wasn't it?

 5        A.   I'm not aware of that information, whether or how they took part

 6     in the take-over the power in the territory of the municipality of Kljuc.

 7     I can confirm that when I was in Kljuc on 14th, 15th of May, 1992, life

 8     in Kljuc was normal.

 9        Q.   And life in Kljuc by that point was under Serb control, wasn't

10     it.  General Galic, your commander, confirmed that in a military

11     political meeting on the 14th of May, right at the time you got there?

12        A.   I cannot confirm what Colonel Galic said at these meetings

13     because I did not attend and Colonel Galic did not communicate that to

14     me.  I can say what I saw personally.

15             And as for the municipality of Kljuc, I know that the Serbian

16     Democratic Party won the election and that the Muslim-Bosniak

17     organisation headed by Omer Filipovic came second in the election.  As

18     far as I was informed, he was the vice-president of the

19     Municipal Assembly of Kljuc.

20        Q.   I didn't ask you about anything to do with the elections in 1990.

21     I want to focus on May 1992.

22             So what I really want to do now is turn to something you said in

23     your evidence in-chief this morning, which was that after the warning

24     shots were launched on Pudin Han, no combat activities in Kljuc

25     municipality took place after this.

Page 30483

 1             Now, what happened --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Can we get a transcript reference for that as has

 3     been the practice in this courtroom since day one?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you happen to have a page and line number?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll find one.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I find --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And hopefully it doesn't count against my time to

 8     find one.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No [Overlapping speakers].

10             Mr. Ivetic, I take it that you also have the WordWheel option, so

11     if one word is mentioned then it usually takes less time to find it

12     yourself rather than to -- it's mainly if we're talking about documents

13     that are not searchable as the transcript is.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Now, what was happening in Kljuc after those warning shots were

17     fired on Pudin Han was that there were widespread search operations going

18     on and there were widespread arrests of huge numbers of non-Serbs;

19     correct?

20        A.   After the surrender of the unlawful Muslim Territorial Defence in

21     the territory of Kljuc municipality, the police at the public security

22     centre in Kljuc was in charge of their apprehension and bringing in.  If

23     it was established that a person was in possession of weapons, they were

24     incarcerated, and those who didn't have weapons and who were not involved

25     in the establishment of the Territorial Defence were released.

Page 30484

 1        Q.   Can you answer my --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic page 47, line 18.

 3             MS EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Can you answer my question.  Were their widespread arrests of

 5     huge numbers of non-Serbs across the municipality, yes or no?

 6        A.   As far as I know there was no widespread arrest of non-Serbs.

 7     Only those who were in possession of weapons were arrested and those who

 8     still had weapons even after having been invited to surrender their

 9     weapons.

10        Q.   So you, in your position as an OPS officer, you would have known

11     if suddenly as a consequence of military operations, your units were

12     receiving large numbers of prisoners.  You would have known; right?

13        A.   People were arrested during combat, but if there had been, units

14     would have reported on that.  In this particular case, we're talking

15     about a police/military activity, to scour the terrain and to confiscate

16     weapons from --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you again.  Carefully listen to

18     the questions and answer those.

19             The question was whether if your units were receiving large

20     numbers of prisoners, whether you would have known about that, yes or no?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In such cases, the units would have

22     had to report on any of the prisoners they had taken during combat, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, therefore, would you have known?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 30485

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or if I --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just say this:  In that

 4     area --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- if --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm not going -- the question was at an

 8     abstract level.  You would have known because reports would have had to

 9     be sent to you on such events.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   So you would have known about droves of people surrendering to

13     your military in these operations; right?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Can we get a reference for "droves".

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied because it's part of a

16     question.  There's no reference for it.  It's what Ms. Edgerton puts to

17     the witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Is it based upon a document she has on the screen

20     which says something different?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  The objection is denied and the

22     request for clarification is denied.

23             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   So, Mr. Ivetic [sic], you would have known as the OPS officer --

Page 30486

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you are confusing Defence counsel with the

 2     witness which --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  All right.  Fine.  I'll just repeat the question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   My question was you would have known about droves of people

 7     surrendering to your military in these operations; right?

 8        A.   Whatever was received from units by the operative centre of the

 9     division was communicated to me.  I don't remember that any of the

10     division units included in the report that people had been apprehended or

11     brought in and that they were Muslims.  So I cannot say that I had

12     information about any number, smaller or bigger for that matter, of

13     Muslims who had been taken prisoners in that area.

14        Q.   So could we have a look at a document then, please.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 31828.

16        Q.   So this, Mr. Kevac, is a daily combat report from the command of

17     the 1st Infantry Brigade at the Sipovo command post to your division, the

18     30th Infantry Division, on the 30th of May, 1992.  That would have come

19     through you, wouldn't it?

20        A.   That report arrived in the command of the 30th Division and then

21     they would have been received from the brigade command.  In other words,

22     this report was delivered to the command of the 30th Division, where I

23     was.

24        Q.   So the answer to my question is yes; right?

25        A.   You said that this report was sent through me.  I did not

Page 30487

 1     participate in the drafting of this report.  This report was submitted to

 2     the division command where I must have read it.  I can't remember.  But

 3     I'm sure I did.

 4        Q.   All right.  So if you go over to page 2 in this document in both

 5     languages, halfway through the page, and it's, I think, the

 6     second-to-last subparagraph of bullet point 2, it says:

 7             "In the Velagica Kula-Pudin Han area, the 3rd Battalion is

 8     conducting mopping up of Green Berets, who are surrendering in droves.

 9     Some of the Green Berets have fled and are in hiding.  One of our

10     soldiers was killed."

11             Now, you said at page 72, just a few seconds ago, that you didn't

12     remember that any of the division units included in the report that

13     people had been apprehended or brought in and that they were Muslims and

14     that you couldn't say that you had information about any number, smaller

15     or bigger for that matter, of Muslims who had been taken prisoners in the

16     area.  So do you remember now, Mr. Kevac?

17        A.   Under 3 of this report, it reads:

18             "Some members of the Green Berets did surrender.  Some went into

19     hiding."

20             All the persons who surrendered in that area where the mopping-up

21     operation was ongoing were taken over by the civilian police, and they

22     took them to the police station in Kljuc where they were interrogated.

23             As far as I know, not a single prisoner, not a single individual

24     remained under the jurisdiction of the battalion command or the units

25     that were deployed there.

Page 30488

 1        Q.   Mr. Kevac what you can do, with respect, is if you want to make

 2     these point, make them in your redirect examination and focus on my

 3     questions because I'm sure you want to make your time with me as short as

 4     possible.

 5             So it's time for a break now, but maybe keep that in the back of

 6     your mind, would be my respectful advice, when we resume.  All right?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  With your leave, of course, Your Honours.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honours --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  -- I believe counsel is badgering the witness right

11     now.  When he has answered her question in his answer; specifically, at

12     line number 10.  As far as I know, he can only go based upon what he

13     knows.  The fact that counsel wants him to know things he doesn't know is

14     not a reason for her to badger him.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, I do agree with you that

16     sometimes in long answers you find something that is related to the

17     question, but often it moves away from it.

18             And, Witness, you are urged to focus on the question in your

19     answers.  Sometimes you say, yes, and that answers the question.  I'm not

20     going to analyse with you the whole of your testimony this morning, but

21     please focus your answers directly and primarily on the questions that

22     are put to you.

23             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honour, in this instance he did --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

25             MR. IVETIC:  -- because it's precisely that point.

Page 30489

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- sorry.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question put to the witness was not whether he

 3     knew anything.  The question was do you remember now?  And the answer

 4     should have been yes or no.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And she directed him to a particular point that he

 6     is referring and he is saying still I don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not these type of discussions, and no interruptions,

 8     please, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             We'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

10     You may now follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'd like to avoid that we get debates

13     and disputes repeatedly which may sometimes disturb the course of the

14     examination.  I therefore would like to ask you to -- to well think about

15     any interruptions you make.  If I look back at this morning, I saw

16     that -- I still do not understand what the interruption about the combat

17     readiness and the engaging in operation was about, because even when

18     re-reading it, I got the impression that Ms. Edgerton read out exactly

19     and referred to what she had read out.

20             MR. IVETIC:  She omitted --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

22             MR. IVETIC:  She omitted the Muslim forces, Your Honour.  She

23     omitted the --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes?

Page 30490

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not to interrupt me.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The second was, and I'm not going to enter into a

 6     new debate, was the page number which again for transcript references of

 7     the same day is easy to handle by anyone who knows how to use his

 8     computer and you're supposed to know that.  [Overlapping speakers].

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours yesterday asked me to give a page

10     reference.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You have now interrupted me again.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll consider with my colleagues what action to

14     take.  I asked you now three times not to interrupt me.  Even if I may

15     not have developed the speed of speech which would not allow someone to

16     interrupt me, I want you to wait until I finished my words.  And I'll

17     leave it to my colleagues whether any action should be taken, yes or no,

18     because I'm too much involved myself in this dispute.

19             But I now move to the -- the third, where I think you were a bit

20     early.  That was the objection you made based on an assumption, which was

21     not part of the question, that Ms. Edgerton was referring to a word in

22     the document.  I later learned that apparently she used that word because

23     she found that in a document which she wished to show to the witness

24     sometime after he had answered that question.  You were just too early.

25             And the only thing I asked you in the beginning is to carefully

Page 30491

 1     think when making such interruptions and select only those who are really

 2     needed and do not unnecessarily interrupt the examination of the witness.

 3             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.56 p.m.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  While we wait for the witness, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  First of all, I apologise if in the heat of the

 9     moment I interrupted you.  I did not mean to add fuel to the fire and

10     make the situation more volatile.  But I must stress that my actions are

11     due to the fact that the Defence is required in cross-examination to

12     perform certain procedures that the Prosecution, at least within this

13     case, is not being asked to do.  Instead, the Defence is being asked to

14     expend efforts on their own to find citations to material.

15             It has been the practice in this case since day one for

16     statements where you use a paragraph number to give the page numbers in

17     e-court.  I rose and brought that to the attention of the Chamber.  It

18     has been the practice in this case when referring to a section of the

19     transcript that cannot be located by opposing counsel to give a

20     reference.  Your Honour directed Mr. Lukic to do that today.  I assisted

21     him with that.

22             So I feel that my actions in asking for simple common courtesies

23     that are required of the Defence are not attempting to -- to breach the

24     proceedings.  Instead, are attempting to make sure that there is a fair

25     environment for both the Prosecution and the Defence where both sides are

Page 30492

 1     held to the same standards, and that is why I was rather emotional in

 2     addressing the Chamber prior to this break.

 3             And I thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Apologies are accepted and apparently your emotions

 5     stemmed from one of the three incidents I talked about today.  I leave it

 6     to that for the time being.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll now continue your -- hearing your

 9     evidence.

10             Ms. Edgerton you may proceed.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12             Could we have 65 ter number 31828 back on the screen, please.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Kevac, just before we broke, you looked at this document

14     and you pointed out that as far as you knew --

15             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's at page 73.

16        Q.   -- not a single prisoner, not a single individual remained under

17     the jurisdiction of the battalion command or the units that were deployed

18     there.  They were taken over by the civilian police.  That's what you

19     said?

20             Now, just to be perfectly clear, they were taken over by the

21     civilian police because the army turned them over to the civilian police;

22     right?

23        A.   No.  During the scouring of the terrain, the civilian police was

24     present together with the military and there, then, they would take over

25     those who surrendered, they organised their transport to the police

Page 30493

 1     station where they were identified and that -- where they would undergo

 2     criminal proceedings.

 3        Q.   So the answer to my question is yes, isn't it?  People

 4     surrendered.  They surrendered to the army.  The army turned them over to

 5     the civilian police; correct?

 6        A.   I answered.  I said that it wasn't the case.  The military was

 7     present and that the civilian police would immediately take over those

 8     who had surrendered their weapons and transported them to the police

 9     station.  They were together in the same place in most of the cases.

10        Q.   So what you're saying is when you're conducting an operation

11     together, one of these joint operations you're talking about in your

12     statement --

13             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's at paragraph 12 on page 4 in the

14     English version.

15        Q.   One of these joint operations.  It actually -- it actually

16     doesn't matter who's doing what individual tasks because you're

17     conducting the operation together and you have the same objectives;

18     right?  That's how an operation works.

19        A.   First of all, let me answer your question about operations.  I am

20     a professor of operations and this was not a classic operation.  It was a

21     forced activity which was carried out after the Muslim armed formations

22     had attacked the JNA column.  For an operation to be a proper operation,

23     there has to be a plan, there have to be forces, and tasks given to every

24     of the units involved.  In this particular case, this was just a response

25     to the Muslim activity against the JNA column; i.e., against the Serbian

Page 30494

 1     police and the JNA soldiers which were withdrawing from the area.  In

 2     other words, those activities were carried out as a counter-measure after

 3     the Muslim forces had attacked the JNA column.  The commander of the

 4     division personally issued tasks in the field.  He was not at the

 5     division command, so he was not in a position to draft a plan beforehand.

 6     Therefore, the operation didn't have a plan.  It evolved in the field

 7     according to the situation and the main objective was to disarm the

 8     illegal Muslim armed formations.

 9        Q.   And that was the objective you, the army, shared with the police

10     forces on the scene; right?

11        A.   I don't know what the division commander's objective was in those

12     activities because I was not there.  However, the objective was to free

13     the area from Muslim formations that would jeopardise the security and

14     safety of the civilian population and the Serbian units in the area.

15        Q.   So in doing that, your forces captured more than -- about 900

16     persons, they were taken over by the civilian police, and then taken into

17     custody; right?

18        A.   When you say "your forces," i.e., my forces, I was not commander.

19     Those were units of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   All right.  Let me just -- units of this 3rd Battalion captured

21     around 900 individuals and turned them over to the civilian police;

22     right?

23        A.   No, that's not right.  I don't know that the 3rd Battalion

24     captured 900 persons because in that area, in addition to the

25     3rd Battalion, other units also scoured the terrain and they were not

Page 30495

 1     elements of the 30th Division.  You can find this in the previous

 2     document that we had on the screen here.

 3             I suppose that the total number of captured persons was about

 4     that, but I don't know who was it who captured them.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Before I forget, Your Honours, could I tender

 6     65 ter number 31828 as a Prosecution Exhibit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31828 receives number P7050,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12        Q.   And those persons, that total number, were largely Muslim; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, talking about the civilian police for a moment and going

15     back to your written evidence at paragraph 12, page 4, you talked about

16     resubordination in -- of police units in different ways, saying that you

17     never saw any order based on which police forces were resubordinated to

18     the VRS?

19        A.   I did not see such a document, a document by which police units

20     would have been resubordinated to the command of the units of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   But, in fact, throughout 1992 that happened and it happened in

23     large numbers, didn't it?  Thousands of Bosnian Serb police were put at

24     the disposal of the VRS over the course of 1992; right?

25        A.   I can't confirm this.  I've not seen a document of that nature.

Page 30496

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, sometimes you can know something even if

 2     you haven't seen a document.  In operations, you can see how people are

 3     operating and how it works, and then even without having seen any

 4     document, there may be other indicia which make you see something

 5     happening even if you have not seen a document.

 6             So you have now repeatedly said you haven't seen a document.

 7     Ms. Edgerton is now asking whether what you saw, on the ground, in your

 8     experience, was of a kind to consider that there may be or has been a

 9     resubordination.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw in documents

11     that police units act together with the units of the army in certain

12     areas.  Acting together means that those were different units, each with

13     their own tasks, but that does not imply their resubordination and

14     putting them under the command responsibility of an officer of the

15     Army of Republika Srpska.  They acted together in the area.  There were

16     such cases.  However, it was only representatives of the police that

17     commanded the police, whereas, on the other hand, the army officers

18     commanded army units there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   So just -- this strikes me as a little odd.  It sounds like

22     you're actually denying JNA principles, and principles that

23     General Mladic held very close, of the importance of a unified command.

24     Is that what you're saying to us?

25        A.   I did not quite understand the question in relation to what I'm

Page 30497

 1     denying and what I'm not denying.  Specifically, as I worked in the area,

 2     I saw that units of the police acted together with the units of the army.

 3     How things were at the highest level, I cannot say.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   No, you're not --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- previously you said that there was the ones were

 8     commanded by the one, police by police officers, the others -- army

 9     officers by army officers, and you strongly suggested that there was no

10     overarching command over the two.  Now in your last answer, you tell us

11     that you don't know.  You said:

12             "How things were at the highest level, I cannot say.  I don't

13     know."

14             So, therefore, I wonder which of the two is true?  Did you know

15     that there was no resubordination or at least a unified command, or

16     whether you don't know whether it was at a higher level where at the

17     lower level commanders may still have exercised their function.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my answer was that

19     there was co-ordination between the units of the police and the units of

20     the Army of Republika Srpska.  In a certain area at brigade level, these

21     police units that operated in a certain area were not subordinated to the

22     brigade commander, so he could not use them at his own discretion.  It

23     was a police officer that was in charge of them.

24             Now, the joint order for our involvement, that was at higher

25     level.  That was at the level of the corps and the Main Staff.  They

Page 30498

 1     defined tasks for the police and for the army that were being carried out

 2     in the field.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And they would also have decided on any temporarily

 4     subordination, isn't it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have this example, that together

 6     with a police unit we were involved in a particular area and --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm asking you whether that would have been the

10     level on which possibly resubordination or subordination or unified

11     command would have been decided upon.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand at which

13     level, tactical or operative strategic level.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Answer the question for both.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On tactical level, it was not

16     possible to carry out resubordination of police units to the commander of

17     the tactical level.  The commander of the tactical level is an officer

18     who is division commander or lower than that.

19             As for higher level, how that was organised at the level of the

20     Army of Republika Srpska, I don't know.  I cannot confirm.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You have answered the question for the tactical

22     level.

23             Operative, strategic level, would any resubordination or any

24     unified command have been determined by the higher-up levels,

25     hierarchical levels?

Page 30499

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At operative strategic level, there

 2     is the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Police.  The Ministry of

 3     Defence and the Ministry of Police are both part of the government.  At

 4     the level of the government, decisions were made for activities of police

 5     units and army units in carrying out particular tasks.

 6             I don't know whether a decision was made by the minister of the

 7     police to have a particular unit resubordinated to the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska and one of its units and -- carry out their tasks within

 9     that unit.  However, it is the minister of police that would be in charge

10     of that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you have no knowledge about that.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  It's break time I see by the clock, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It, indeed, is break time.

16             Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in

17     this same courtroom, but I'd first instruct you that you should not speak

18     or communicate in whatever way with any other person, whomever it is,

19     about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today or

20     whether that's testimony still to be given.

21             If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything that I'm

23     supposed to do is clear to me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 30500

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume

 2     tomorrow, Friday, the 23rd of January, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 3     courtroom, I.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd of day of

 6                           January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.