Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30501

 1                           Friday, 23 January 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Now preliminary matters raised by the parties, but I have a few

12     matters I'd like to deal with in order to shorten my -- the Chamber's

13     agenda.

14             The first one deals with an issue remaining from the testimony of

15     Vladimir Radojcic.  On the 15th of December of last year, the Prosecution

16     brought to the Chamber's attention through an e-mail that Exhibit P6955 -

17     that is, 65 ter 1D2153 - was also admitted with a different ERN as

18     Exhibit P4424.  The Chamber notes that the two translations do not

19     correspond.

20             On the 16th and the 17th of December, the Chamber e-mailed the

21     Defence to inquire if it had any objections to vacating Exhibit P6955 as

22     suggested by the Prosecution, but as of today's date, the Defence has not

23     responded.

24             Is the Defence now able to advise the Chamber of its position

25     with regard to Exhibits P6955 and P4424?  That is a question.  If not,

Page 30502

 1     I'll give you a relatively short deadline.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  A short deadline would suffice.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry

 4     to mark P6955 as not admitted, and -- no, no.  We'll leave that what --

 5             First of all, we'd like to hear from the Defence by next Monday

 6     close of business, and we'll then proceed having heard from the Defence.

 7             The next item I'd like to deal with is the remaining issue from

 8     the testimony of Milorad Bukva.  As a matter of fact there are even

 9     issues, the plural.

10             On the 8th of September of last year the Chamber e-mailed the

11     Prosecution inquiring whether it required a translation of the manuscript

12     portions of Exhibit D613, which is a map admitted during the testimony of

13     Witness Milorad Bukva.  You could check on transcript pages 25037

14     to -038.  And on the 29th of October, the Prosecution advised the Chamber

15     that the translation of the manuscript comments would be welcome.

16             However, the Prosecution also submitted that military maps from

17     both the ABiH and the VRS were already in evidence and served as better

18     evidence.  The Prosecution also noted in its e-mail of the 29th of

19     October and at transcript page 26098 that the Chamber may be assisted in

20     understanding symbols made by witnesses on non-military maps by referring

21     to 65 ter 30651, which is a 93-page JNA manual entitled:  Instructions on

22     working maps in the armed forces.

23             On the 25th of November and the 9th of December, the Chamber

24     e-mailed the parties to inquire whether either party was in receipt of a

25     revised translation of D613.

Page 30503

 1             On the 10th of December, the Prosecution advised the Chamber that

 2     it was not in receipt of a revised translation; and on the 16th and the

 3     17th of December, the Chamber e-mailed the Defence again to inquire

 4     whether it had an update with regard to the revised translation of D613

 5     and whether it had any objections to the admission of 65 ter 30651; that

 6     is, the manual I just referred to.  As of today's date, the Defence has

 7     not responded to the Chamber.

 8             The question is whether the Chamber can receive a response now

 9     and if not we'll set a deadline.

10             MR. IVETIC:  It's not one I'm working on, but I think a short

11     deadline should suffice and I'll make sure it gets done.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the Chamber would like to hear by next

13     Monday whether there is a revised translation of D613 and whether the

14     Defence objects to the admission of 65 ter 30651.

15             Then I have two matters I'd like to deal with in private session.

16     Can we turn into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30504











11  Page 30504 redacted.  Private session.















Page 30505

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I will deliver a decision and perhaps meanwhile the

 7     usher could already start preparing the witness for entering the

 8     courtroom.  We'll deliver now the decision on the admission into evidence

 9     of the witness statement and associated exhibits for

10     Witness Mihajlo Vujasin.

11             On the 7th of August of last year, the Defence filed a motion to

12     tender the witness statement together with 31 associated exhibits.

13             On the 21st of August, the Prosecution reserved its position on

14     the admissions of statement and associated exhibits as the documents had

15     not been disclosed properly.

16             On 16th of December the Chamber invited the Defence to reduce the

17     number of associated exhibits tendered with this witness.  The Defence

18     subsequently provided a reduced list of associated exhibits tendering

19     eight of 31 exhibits.

20             Of the remaining exhibits, the document bearing 65 ter 1D04082

21     was admitted into evidence as Exhibit D642; thereby, leaving seven

22     associated exhibits and the witness's statement, which was MFI'd as

23     Exhibit D641.  The Prosecution indicated that it did not object to the

24     admission of these seven associated exhibits which can be found on pages

25     25595 to 25601.

Page 30506

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             Witness, I ask for some patience.  I will continue to read a

 3     decision and we'll then continue with your testimony.

 4             I continue reading the decision.

 5             The Chamber recalls that the case law with regard to the

 6     admission of associated exhibits pursuant to Rule 92 ter establishes that

 7     documents can be admitted if they form an inseparable and indispensable

 8     part of the witness's written testimony.  And with regard to the

 9     admission of the witness statement, the Chamber recalls Rules 89(C) and

10     Rule 92 ter.

11             The Chamber has reviewed the witness statement and the proposed

12     associated exhibits.  The Chamber considers the witness statement to be

13     relevant to the indictment, Schedules F and G, and was attested to by the

14     witness.  It therefore finds it to be relevant and of probative value for

15     the purpose of admission pursuant to Rules 89(C) and 92 ter.  The Chamber

16     hereby admits the witness statement as it was MFI'd previously as D641.

17     It's hereby admitted into evidence.

18             With regard to the exhibits bearing document numbers 1D03109,

19     1D03110, and 1D04095, these exhibits consist of maps marked by the

20     witness which give further explanation to paragraphs 4 and 22 of the

21     statement.  The Chamber considers that the statement would be thus less

22     comprehensible without them.  With regard to the exhibit bearing number

23     1D04096, this document was used during the witness's testimony to further

24     explain paragraph 61 of the witness statement; in particular, what was

25     meant by "unrealistic expectations of the brigade."  And this can be

Page 30507

 1     found on transcript pages 25591 to -594.  The statement would thus be

 2     less comprehensible without it.

 3             With regard to exhibits bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 08346,

 4     1D04093, and 1D04094, these exhibits are only mentioned in the statement

 5     but do not contribute to the content or the comprehensibility of the

 6     statement and additionally were not discussed in the court by the

 7     witness.

 8             The Chamber hereby admits the documents bearing Rule 65 ter

 9     numbers 1D03109, 1D03110, 1D04095, and 1D04096.

10             Madam Registrar, four numbers for these documents in the order as

11     I read them out would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives exhibit number D872, D873, D874, and

13     D875, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D872 up to and including D875 are admitted into

15     evidence.

16             The Chamber denies admission of the documents bearing Rule 65 ter

17     numbers 08346, 1D04093, and 1D04094.

18             And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the admission of

19     Witness Mihajlo Vujasin's statement and associated exhibits.

20             Mr. Kevac, we asked a lot of your patience; apologies for that.

21     Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

22     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

23     you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             Ms. Edgerton will now continue her cross-examination.

25             Please proceed.

Page 30508

 1                           WITNESS: VELIMIR KEVAC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kevac.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   I'd like to continue on a topic that we finished off with

 8     yesterday, and it's the topic of resubordination of police units.

 9             Now -- to the military.  And now at transcript page 30498, you

10     told His Honour Judge Orie, and I'll quote that:

11             "On a tactical level, it wasn't possible to carry out

12     resubordination of police units to the commander of the tactical level.

13     The commander of a tactical level who is an officer who was a division

14     commander or lower than that."

15             Now, that's what you said yesterday by way of a little reminder

16     for you, and I'd like to, in relation to that, show you a document.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 31827.

18        Q.   Now, this is a -- this is a short document.  It's an order dated

19     22 June 1992 from Colonel Galic to Operations Group 30, the 1st Infantry

20     Brigade, and the 19th Partisan Brigade.  But I'd like you to have a look

21     at the order, and I want to draw your attention, in particular, to the

22     last two paragraphs which say:

23             "In exceptional cases where there is an urgent need, police

24     forces may be used for direct combat activities on the front to hold and

25     strengthen the front until the arrival of army units.

Page 30509

 1             "In other cases, it is necessary to inform and receive permission

 2     from the chief of the Security Services Centre."

 3             So, Mr. Kevac, this is Colonel Galic doing exactly what you told

 4     His Honour Judge Orie yesterday it was impossible to do, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.  In this case, we're talking about exceptional situations

 6     when there is a threat or a danger that the area populated by the

 7     civilian population comes under threat from the enemy side.  In that

 8     case, in order to defend the area, police units are also engaged in

 9     defence, pending the arrival of military units.  Those were exceptional

10     cases.  There were no such cases in the area of responsibility of the

11     division, so I can't say whether the police were engaged in keeping with

12     this decision of the division commander.

13        Q.   So you're changing the evidence you gave His Honour Judge Orie

14     yesterday where you said it was not possible to carry out the

15     resubordination, aren't you, seeing this document that I've just shown

16     you?

17        A.   This exceptional engagement of police units was certainly

18     approved by the police minister.  Police organs had the approval for such

19     engagement in exceptional situations.  This was regulated at the highest

20     level.  Brigade commanders could not use police units without approval

21     issued by authorised bodies.  Because, as it says under bullet point 1,

22     the police are used to keep law and order.  This is their duty, and

23     that's how they are used.

24        Q.   My question was, Mr. Kevac, whether you agreed that having seen

25     this document, you're changing the evidence you gave yesterday.  That's

Page 30510

 1     correct, isn't it, you're changing the evidence you gave yesterday,

 2     aren't you?

 3        A.   I am not changing my evidence.  I just confirmed that at the

 4     tactical level the commander could not use the police; i.e., the term

 5     "resubordination" is a term which I don't know how you interpret.

 6     Resubordination means that if a unit is assigned to a commander, he can

 7     uses it up to a certain point in time.  After then, that unit is

 8     resubordinated to another commander and that other commander continues

 9     using it for a different task.  Resubordination means that a unit is

10     placed from one command to another command, from the command by one

11     commander to the command of another commander.  This document doesn't

12     specify very clear whether we're talking about resubordination or not.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  We have the document now.  We have

14     the testimony of the witness of yesterday.  We have the testimony of the

15     witness of today.  Let's move on.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I just have the document as a Prosecution

17     exhibit --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  -- before we go further please, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31872 [sic] receives exhibit number

22     P7051, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 30511

 1        Q.   Now, also yesterday you said that with respect to the Velagici

 2     killings you heard there were proceedings initiated against the

 3     perpetrators.  And my first question to you on that point is:  When you

 4     talk about what happened in Velagici, you mean the killing on June 1st,

 5     1992, of at least 77 men who had been detained at the school house in

 6     Velagici by members of the VRS.  That's what you mean; right?

 7        A.   I am not aware of the details of that case.  I did not have an

 8     occasion to see the reports issued by the police bodies that carried out

 9     the on-site inspection and continued to process the whole event.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, if I may just interrupt before you

11     proceed.

12             When you introduced P8051, at page 9, line 8 -- or 8, line 9,

13     sorry.  Yeah, at 8 -- line 8.  It was introduced as 31827.  When it is

14     admitted at line 10 -- at page 10, line 11, it is 31872.  Which is the

15     correct one?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  31827, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  2-7.  It's not your mistake.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby then corrected.

19             Witness, in relation to the last question, you may not know the

20     details, but when you said that proceedings were instituted against

21     suspects, you were dealing with the killing of a large number of men that

22     had been detained at the Velagici school.  Is that what you referred to?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that information.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- and that's what you talked about when you

25     said that proceedings were instituted against suspects.

Page 30512

 1             Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   But you know those suspects were never prosecuted, don't you?

 4        A.   I didn't know, and I don't know how the proceedings ended against

 5     those suspects, because that was not in my remit.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, also yesterday at transcript pages 30493 to

 7     30494 you talked about the events of the 28th May 1992 as being a

 8     response -- actually you said:

 9             "In this particular case, this was just a response to the Muslim

10     activity against the JNA column."

11             And then further you said:

12             "In other words, those activities were carried out as a

13     counter-measure after the Muslim forces had attacked the column."

14             Now, in fact, Mr. Kevac, the action -- pardon me.  The -- the --

15     this wasn't -- this action wasn't a counter-measure at all and your

16     consistent reference to the attack on the JNA column is nothing more than

17     a pretext, isn't it?

18        A.   That is not so.

19        Q.   Well, let's have a look at this for a minute.  What happened on

20     the 27th of May was isolated incidents in local Muslim-held pockets in a

21     larger Serb-controlled area.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'd refer Your Honours to P3851 and P2867 in

23     that regard.

24        Q.   That's correct, isn't it?

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if she's relying upon exhibits, in

Page 30513

 1     questioning the witness she needs to present them to the witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton has asked a question to the witness and

 3     has informed the Chamber that relevant information could be found by the

 4     Chamber in those documents, but she doesn't put those documents to the

 5     witness.  She puts a question to the witness.  Perhaps at a later stage

 6     she'll confront the witness with the documents, but she started by just

 7     putting that question.

 8             Would you please answer that question:  Whether what happened

 9     were isolated incidents in local Muslim-held pockets in a larger

10     Serb-controlled area.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire Kljuc area

12     municipality was a quiet area.  The entire area was such that Serb and

13     Muslim populations lived there peacefully.  There was no defined space

14     controlled either by Serbs or Muslims.  It was all common space.  And, at

15     that time, Mr. Omer Filipovic was the vice-president of the Kljuc

16     Municipal Assembly.  He participated in the authority, in the running of

17     the Kljuc municipality.  So I don't know of any areas that were under the

18     control of Muslims or areas that were under the control of Serbs.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Your response to these isolated incidents and the failure to

21     disarm was to launch attacks, widespread attacks, against the locations

22     that we've seen in the documents yesterday and areas of the municipality,

23     including by shelling those areas; right?

24        A.   No, that is not correct.

25        Q.   In those attacks on those Muslim-held areas, civilians were

Page 30514

 1     killed.  Isn't that the case?

 2        A.   I don't know that an order was issued for an attack or that the

 3     army had the task of executing an attack.  The army, Colonel Galic, in a

 4     direct conversation with Mr. Filipovic, requested that the Muslims hand

 5     over their weapons.  When they failed to do that, Colonel Galic ordered

 6     that a volley be fired as a warning in the direction of the place where

 7     the ambush was.  I said yesterday that I don't know where the shells

 8     actually fell or if there were any casualties as a consequence of that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kevac, the question didn't relate to an order

10     to attack; it related to the attack.  Could you please answer that

11     question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An order is required for every

13     assignment that is being carried out.  In this case, it was the action of

14     disarming Muslim paramilitaries in the municipal territory of Kljuc.  It

15     was conducted in such a way that there was a search carried out, looking

16     for weapons and armed persons in the territory of the municipality.  This

17     is not a form of action that could be described as an attack.  An attack

18     is an assault on entrenched positions of the enemy in order to inflict

19     losses on the enemy using weapons and in order to capture their

20     positions.  That's an attack.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm happy that you deny that this was an attack.

22     There's a difference [Microphone not activated].

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   Do you also deny that civilians were killed?

25        A.   I don't have any data about civilians being killed.

Page 30515

 1        Q.   My question wasn't, Mr. Kevac, whether or not you had data.  My

 2     question was whether you denied that civilians were killed.

 3        A.   Your Honours, I'm not denying it.  Probably they were killed, but

 4     I don't know anything about it.  I didn't have information about it.

 5        Q.   And it's also correct, isn't it, that during these operations

 6     we're discussing, that houses, private houses in Pudin Han, Velagici,

 7     these locations we're talking about, Biljani, Sanica, Prhovo, Muslim-held

 8     locations were burned; right?

 9        A.   I don't know precisely but I did hear of individual instances of

10     some houses being torched.  I wasn't in the area, but probably there were

11     some houses that were burned.  There were houses that were not burned

12     also.

13        Q.   And non-Serbs were surrendering to VRS forces in the face of

14     these operations en masse; right?

15        A.   The population in that area responded to calls to come out to

16     hand over their weapons, those who had them.  Those who didn't have

17     weapons still came out to identify themselves to be there.  A number of

18     people fled.  They were hiding in the woods, and there were armed Muslims

19     in that area until late 1993.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was about whether non-Serbs

21     were surrendering to VRS forces.  Now, you have described a lot of things

22     but you didn't touch upon whether non-Serbs surrendered to VRS forces.

23             Would you please answer that question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the procedure that the

25     units applied, the units that were searching the terrain.

Page 30516

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Were non-Serbs surrendering to the VRS forces

 2     irrespective of what specific procedure was applied?  If you don't know,

 3     tell us.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was an area mostly populated

 5     by Muslims.  Probably that's how it was.  I don't know.  I'm not able to

 6     confirm whether they were surrendering or whether they had just responded

 7     to the call.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you don't know.  Please be aware that you

 9     have -- you know a lot of details about what happened.  You explained to

10     us they came out, some of them with weapons, some of them without

11     weapons.  You know all the details.  And if it comes to whether they

12     surrendered to VRS forces, you don't know, which may raise questions as

13     whether you are selective in your recollection because you give all the

14     other details at this question.  But if you don't know, that's fine.

15     Then we'll move on.

16             Please proceed.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may just say

18     this:  The commander requested the Muslims to surrender their weapons.

19     They surrendered their weapons and in that context they were surrendering

20     too.  That's how it was, in that area.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, so they were surrendering.  Why didn't you say

22     five questions earlier, yes, they surrendered?  Was -- that was the

23     question.  So they did surrender.  The question was, in addition to that,

24     did they surrender en masse.  Was it a large number that surrendered?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In accordance with the population

Page 30517

 1     numbers in a certain place and the number of men, they would respond to

 2     the call to surrender, to hand over their weapons, I don't know if this

 3     disarming process was something that was en masse.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, you know all the details, you know that they

 5     surrendered, but whether there are many or not, you do not know.  Fine.

 6     If you don't know, we'll move on.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:

 9        Q.   So you don't know that in your own division's area of

10     responsibility people were surrendering to your forces en masse.  So do

11     you know that, in fact, across three municipalities at this time - Kljuc,

12     Sanski Most, and Prijedor - non-Serbs were being captured by VRS forces

13     by the thousands; do you know that?

14        A.   Your Honours, the area of responsibility of the 30th Division

15     encompassed Kupres, Donji Vakuf, Turbe, Jajce, going all the way towards

16     the confluence of the Ugar river into the Vrbas river.  This is the

17     position that was held by the division.  Within that area, there was --

18     there was sections where there was no combat.  The town of Kljuc, as

19     such, was not part of the division's area of defence.  Sanski Most and

20     Prijedor, in particular, is where I heard that there was disarming of

21     Muslims.  In Sanski Most and Prijedor.  I did hear of that.  But I don't

22     know of any details.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, you've described your area of

24     responsibility, which is fine, because then we know how you understand

25     the question.  Then you said a lot of things, including that there was

Page 30518

 1     disarming, but you have not given an answer to the question:  Were you

 2     aware that non-Serbs were captured by the VRS forces by the thousands in

 3     your area of responsibility?  Were you aware or were you not aware?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware that the terrain was

 5     being searched and that disarming was under way, and I did hear that a

 6     number of Muslims --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I stop you.  I stop you.  Why first answer

 8     questions which were not put to you.

 9             Were you aware that by the thousands non-Serbs were captured in

10     that area of responsibility?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's move on.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   So you're the ops officer for your division, and you've already

15     explained how the reports you received from the division subordinate

16     units would be sent up to the division commander and how his reports

17     would then go up to General Talic, and in the normal course of things

18     they'd reach the Main Staff.

19             So if you don't know that the VRS in your area of responsibility

20     was taking control of thousands of non-Serb detainees, how come

21     General Talic knows while it's happening?

22        A.   I answered yesterday that Muslims in the area of Kljuc were

23     handed over to the civilian police and then transported further,

24     according to their plan.  This was not something that was done by the

25     division units, so I cannot really talk about things that I don't know

Page 30519

 1     and what I didn't read in the information.

 2        Q.   In fact, the Muslims posed no real danger to VRS forces

 3     whatsoever, didn't they?  You took control of the area of Kljuc within

 4     two days of those attacks.  You know that, don't you, because you were

 5     the operations guy, and you were receiving all those reports.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's five questions in one there, Ms. Edgerton.

 7     Could you please --

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I break them up please, Your Honour, then.

 9     Apologies.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, I -- I even encourage you to do so.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

12        Q.   In fact, the Muslim forces or the Muslims posed no real danger to

13     you whatsoever; isn't that correct?

14        A.   That is not correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, the -- in the composite version of

16     your questions, it was Muslims; now it is Muslim forces.  So you are

17     putting a different question to the witness.  I don't know whether he is

18     sufficiently -- was sufficiently aware of the first version of your

19     question and the second one.  You see that your language is not the same.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   And you took control of the area of Kljuc within two days of

23     those attacks; correct?

24        A.   The attacks were not organised other than warning volleys after

25     which Omer Filipovic announced that the Muslim Territorial Defence in the

Page 30520

 1     Kljuc area would surrender.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that VRS forces took control, full control of the

 3     area of Kljuc within two days of these isolated attacks?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if there's some confusion.  From the

 5     answer of the witness, I do understand that he thinks the question was

 6     about attacks by the Serbs, whereas the attacks you refer to,

 7     Ms. Edgerton, seem to be the isolated incidents of attack where Muslims

 8     attacked Serbs, isn't it?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore the witness, in his answer, is

11     apparently not understanding what attacks you are referring to.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   I'm referring to the incidents you've been talking about on the

14     27th of May, 1992.  Now, is it correct that VRS forces took full control

15     of the area of Kljuc municipality within two days of those attacks, yes

16     or no?

17        A.   No.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we just have a look, please, at one more

19     document and then we'll leave this area.  It's P2875.

20        Q.   Now, this is a report to the 1st Krajina Corps Command from their

21     morale and legal affairs officer.  And I want you to have a look at the

22     fourth full paragraph in both languages, actually, on page 1.

23             It says, about the third sentence down -- actually, we can look

24     at the beginning of the paragraph.  It refers to the military column

25     coming from Knin where two soldiers were killed, four were wounded.  And

Page 30521

 1     then slightly further, it says:

 2             "Energetic action by our 30th Partisan Division resulted in the

 3     defeat and breakup of those forces in the town of Kljuc itself in the

 4     villages of Pudin Han, Velagici, Donji Ramici.  Units of the corps have

 5     established full control of the area."

 6             It talks about weapons seized, and then says:

 7             "About 280 enemy soldiers were captured in Kljuc and a number of

 8     them killed."

 9             Once again, you're contradicted by a contemporaneous military

10     document, weren't you?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I find it in the structure that

13     counsel has skipped over the part that says "and some enemy soldiers fled

14     into the surrounding area."  That, if you're being -- present a document

15     to the witness to comment, you should have the full document, not picking

16     parts of it to construct the view is in favour of the Prosecution's

17     theory.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know whether it really changes that

19     much, but, Ms. Edgerton, it -- indeed, the document also describes that

20     some of the enemy troops escaped, have escaped in the surrounding

21     mountains.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then let's then --

24             The question now to you is where you said there was no attack, it

25     was just firing a few shells to warn, and then everyone handed in their

Page 30522

 1     weapons.  Nothing was organised.  Ms. Edgerton puts to you that the

 2     document gives a different picture from what you told us, and I take it

 3     invites you to comment on the contradiction between your testimony and

 4     what is found in this document.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot clarify it other than to

 6     say that that this energetic action represents one volley representing

 7     the decisiveness of the army to resolve the situation in that area.  As

 8     far as I see and as far as I know, there was no other action.  After

 9     that, the action of disarming of military Muslim formations was carried

10     out in that area.  The report refers to three villages:  Pudin Han,

11     Velagici, and Donji Ramici.  This is not the whole of the Kljuc

12     municipality.  Other than these villages, there are many other villages

13     where Muslims lived and where there was no disarmament action or a

14     sweeping of the terrain in search of hidden weapons, and this is what my

15     answer referred to.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I see it's time just about for the first break of

18     the morning, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is, and I think you have approximately

20     some -- you used 35 minutes approximately so you've 25 minutes left.

21     Well, that's for two hours, because yesterday you used one hour.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.  I hope to be done well within that time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

24             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We take a break and we'd like

25     to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

Page 30523

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kevac, the sheer scale of what the VRS did in response to

10     these isolated incidents in the three villages you just spoke about

11     before we broke shows that the operation against the Muslims was far more

12     than a counter-measure.  In fact, it was a co-ordinated and planned

13     operation, wasn't it?

14        A.   I'm not aware of that.

15        Q.   And it was designed -- it was all about pushing the non-Serbs out

16     of Kljuc; right?

17        A.   No, not right.

18        Q.   So we'll just move on to a related area, actually.

19             You said that -- in your written evidence at paragraph 17, which

20     is on page 5 in English, you said the safety of the Muslims in Kljuc was

21     guaranteed.  And then yesterday at transcript page 30460, you were asked:

22             "Who was tasked with this protection of the population?"

23             And your answer was:

24             "The MUP or the civilian police was in charge of that."

25             But, in fact, the VRS and the police were together committing

Page 30524

 1     massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc, weren't they, Mr. Kevac?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, it misstates the evidence.  I believe

 3     the testimony that is being referred to refers to paragraph 16 of the

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, were you referring to paragraph 16?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I was specifically referring to the sentence in

 7     paragraph 17 that says:

 8             "No one touched them and their safety was guaranteed."

 9             And I quoted the line from the testimony yesterday.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, apparently Mr. Ivetic understood it in a

11     different way.  It's now clear what Ms. Edgerton referred to.

12             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honours, the transcript referred to

13     paragraph 16, that's my point.  The question is being -- the answer is

14     being cited as in relation to paragraph 16.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's yesterday's transcript, you mean?

16             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours.  I have the page open

17     now, 30460.  My question was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you give me a second --

19             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then I have it open.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Line 13 through the end of the page, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question yesterday, Ms. Edgerton, was related

23     to what you read yesterday from paragraph 16, so the testimony is to be

24     understood as in response to a question in which you read out

25     paragraph 16 and that is not exactly the same lines as you are apparently

Page 30525

 1     referring to now in paragraph 17.  So perhaps you should make this as

 2     clear as possible by either -- perhaps by quoting both the testimony and

 3     the line you wanted to put to the witness.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, Your Honour.  I wanted to remind the

 5     witness initially of his written evidence which says, at paragraph 17:

 6             "The Muslims that lived in Kljuc lived there peacefully.  No one

 7     touched them and their safety was guaranteed."

 8             And, then, separately, I chose at the same time to remind the

 9     witness of his testimony which was in answer to a question by Mr. Ivetic,

10     actually, yesterday --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I made a mistake there.  It was Mr. Ivetic who then

12     referred to paragraph 16, and the witness then answered that.  Sorry to

13     interrupt to you, but I made a mistake, indeed.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, not at all, Your Honours.  But now -- your

16     indulgence for a moment.

17        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Kevac, was:  The VRS and the police were

18     together committing massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc,

19     weren't they?

20        A.   I heard about crimes committed by individuals in the territory of

21     Kljuc municipality.  They were committed by individuals and proceedings

22     were instituted against them.  This is as much as I can say about that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if -- there apparently is an issue about

24     whether these were isolated individuals just acting on their own or

25     whether these were members of police forces or military forces.

Page 30526

 1             First question:  When you talk about individuals, do you mean to

 2     say individuals that were not in any way members of police forces or

 3     military forces?  Is that what you intend to refer to, if you say

 4     "individuals"?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my statement, I

 6     stated that I'd heard about members of the Army of Republika Srpska who

 7     committed a crime in the school, in Velagici.  I also heard that the

 8     military police had carried out an on-site investigation and that those

 9     soldiers were arrested.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, again, you apparently consider it very

11     important to tell us again and again that they were arrested.  But I then

12     understand if you're talking about "individuals," of course, crimes are

13     often committed by persons.  Now those individuals, if I understand your

14     testimony now well, that they may well have been members of the police

15     force or the military forces.  Is that well understood?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stated that --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, perhaps the witness -- Mr. Ivetic is on his

18     feet and the witness seems to be waiting for Mr. Ivetic to say something,

19     so perhaps we could resolve that before the witness continues.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Let the witness answer and then I'll make my point

21     for the record.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Witness, if I put a question to you -- just

23     look at me; to no one else.  I also noticed that you are seeking eye

24     contact with Mr. -- at least the Defence side.  I didn't know whom

25     exactly you tried to reach.

Page 30527

 1             I repeat my question:  Do I understand your testimony well that

 2     those individuals you're talking about may well have been members of the

 3     police or the military forces?  The Serb police or military forces.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And now, Your Honour, for purposes of the record,

 7     the witness said precisely that at page 25, lines 1, just before

 8     Your Honour's question.  So Your Honour's question was asking something

 9     that the witness had already answered.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Mr. Ivetic.  Again -- but I'm not entering into

11     debates with you again and again.

12             Earlier the witness was repeatedly referring to individuals, not

13     specifically about the Velagici school but about all kind of incidents,

14     this was what happened, and I wanted to clarify apart from the Velagici

15     school whether when he refers to individuals, whether that could refer

16     well to members of the police and the military forces.

17             So, therefore, I'm afraid that either you didn't fully understand

18     my question or you have not carefully looked at the answer the witness

19     gave which was exclusively about Velagici.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I draw Mr. Ivetic's attention to page 24,

21     line 15 to 17.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Kevac, can you identify for us one single case where members

25     of the VRS were prosecuted for committing war crimes against non-Serbs in

Page 30528

 1     Kljuc municipality?

 2        A.   I can say that persons who committed the crime in Velagici were

 3     arrested and taken to the court in Banja Luka.  What happened next, I

 4     don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, so therefore the answer is:  I don't know

 6     whether they were prosecuted.

 7             So, indeed, as a matter of fact, the answer to the question is

 8     simply no, because you cannot identify one single case in which persons

 9     were prosecuted, and that they were arrested you have told us already

10     many times.

11             Ms. Edgerton please proceed.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Kevac?  You can't identify one single war

14     crimes prosecution where members of the VRS were prosecuted for

15     committing war crimes against non-Serbs; is that correct?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In Kljuc.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Asked and answered.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In Kljuc.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  In Kljuc.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you about any single

21     case that was brought to an end, because I don't know.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   Similarly, can you identify for us one single case where members

24     of the VRS were prosecuted for killing non-Serbs in Kljuc municipality?

25     A murder charge.

Page 30529

 1        A.   I don't have that information.  I don't know whether anybody was

 2     charged and found guilty of murder.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, isn't this a matter which -- I mean, if there

 5     would have been prosecutions for crimes committed in Kljuc, why not agree

 6     on that?  Whether this witness knows about it is a different matter.

 7             I would urge the parties to seek an agreement on that.  If no one

 8     was ever prosecuted, then ... that isn't too difficult to agree upon, I

 9     would think, but let's move on.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   Now we'll go back to my first question that began this

12     discussion.  And the question was whether you would agree that -- in

13     fact, I'll read it to you.

14             I asked you whether the police and the VRS together were

15     committing massive crimes against the non-Serbs in Kljuc.

16             Now, in fact, what they were doing, Mr. Kevac, was that they were

17     burning homes, they were looting property, and they were arbitrarily

18     arresting people.  That's what was going on in Kljuc.  Isn't that the

19     case?

20        A.   As far as I know, in the territory of Kljuc municipality, Muslim

21     formations were disarmed in an operation that was carried out.  There

22     were casualties, and houses were indeed torched during that operation.

23        Q.   And so, in fact, the people whose job it was to protect the

24     civilians against these massive crimes were themselves the perpetrators;

25     right?

Page 30530

 1        A.   When we're talking about civilians, we're talking about unarmed

 2     persons.  In this particular case, those people had weapons and used

 3     those weapons against the JNA column and against members of the Kljuc

 4     police, and that resulted in people being killed and wounded.  The

 5     operation to disarm those armed individuals was carried out after their

 6     commander, Omer Filipovic, announced that they were prepared to

 7     surrender.  Civilians, i.e., women, children, and elderly persons, were

 8     not subject of searches, and they were not brought in by the police as a

 9     result of that -- that operation.

10        Q.   Mr. Kevac --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, I would have a few questions if you

12     would allow me.

13             You said a minute ago, Witness, you said -- let me find it to

14     quote you literally.

15             You talked about Muslim formations being disarmed, an operation

16     was carried out, "there were casualties, and houses were indeed torched

17     during that operation."

18             Do I have to understand this as that those who were involved in

19     this operation were involved in the torching of houses?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know who

21     torched houses, whether those were military or somebody else who arrived

22     after the military had departed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you don't know.  You were not present at

24     the time.  Is that why you didn't know?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

Page 30531

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then tell us how you knew that only those

 2     who had weapons were detained?  How do you know that if you were not

 3     present at that time?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from the division

 5     commander when he arrived at the division command post.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he tell you approximately how many people had

 7     weapons and how many did not have weapons?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About how many people had weapons

 9     and how many didn't, he did not give me the exact numbers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but, proportions?  70 per cent had weapons or

11     300 had weapons, something of the kind, even without exact numbers?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that a large quantity of

13     weapons was confiscated.  I didn't hear exact numbers.  I don't remember

14     that an exact number was ever mentioned.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  How are you sure that those who had no weapons were

16     not detained?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that those who had no

18     weapons were not innate.  Those who were brought in were processed.  And

19     based on the information on who was a member of the Territorial Defence

20     and who wasn't, those people who were brought in were grouped into

21     categories.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what happened to the category that had no

23     weapons, well, let's say, men of military age, no weapons found on them.

24     What happened to them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

Page 30532

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well -- no --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know, then you can't exclude any

 4     possibility, I take it, whether they continued to be detained or were

 5     released.  You don't know?

 6             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   So, Mr. Kevac, you made the point that the women and the children

 9     and the elderly were not -- in Kljuc were not the subject of searches.

10     But, Mr. Kevac, the women, the children, the elderly who hadn't been

11     arrested had absolutely no guarantees of safety; right?  Because the

12     authorities were the ones who were perpetrating the crimes; right?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, could you please -- you are inviting

14     the witness to say something and then also to give the reasons for what

15     he should confirm or not.  That is really complex.  Ask questions

16     please --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- about facts.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

20        Q.   Mr. Kevac, you made the point that the women, the children, and

21     the elderly weren't the subject of searches.  These were the same people

22     who -- whose male family members had been arrested in large numbers;

23     right?

24        A.   Probably, yes.

25        Q.   They had, the non-Serb women, children, and elderly, had no

Page 30533

 1     guarantees of security, in fact; right?

 2        A.   I can't answer your question because I was not a member of the

 3     authorities who were supposed to provide them with security.  I'm talking

 4     about the civilian police and ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's stick, then, to facts.

 6             You say houses were torched.  Now the question put to you by

 7     Ms. Edgerton is a rather abstract one, but if your house is torched, then

 8     at least no security was given such as to prevent the house being

 9     torched.  Would you agree with that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do agree.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   So these people left Kljuc, didn't they?

14        A.   Some did.  Some of those people left Kljuc.  Some remained living

15     in Kljuc, however.

16        Q.   And they left because of the climate of fear, didn't they?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.  The witness

18     can't be asked to testify about the mental state and reasons of third

19     parties.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I can't say that similar questions have not

21     been put to witnesses at various times.  But I would agree.  Let's first

22     try to stick to facts, Ms. Edgerton.  To that extent I grant the

23     objection made.

24             Previous question, you said:  Those people left.  You said some

25     left.  Some remained.  How many left; how many remained?  If you don't

Page 30534

 1     have exact numbers, I understand, but in proportions.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have exact numbers.

 3     However, over one half certainly left.  I don't know how many more than

 4     one half.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But more than one half.  Could it have been

 6     95 per cent?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  It was probably

 8     less than 95 per cent, but I don't know.  I'm not sure.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the basis at all that you know that it was

10     more than 50 per cent.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because it was something

12     that happened on a substantial scale.  They requested to leave Kljuc.

13     The authorities allowed that to happen.  I heard about it.  I wasn't

14     present.  I happened to be in a different place.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't have any personal knowledge about it of

16     personal observation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you talk to those persons before they left?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I was at the

20     division command.  I was not in the Kljuc municipality area.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge - and on what basis -

22     about the reasons why they left?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say.  I think that their

24     main reason for leaving was because they were afraid.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what you think.  Why do you think that?

Page 30535

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was war time.

 2     Everyone was afraid, Serbs, Muslims.  Everyone was afraid for the

 3     survival of their families.  Everybody wanted to place their families in

 4     a place where they felt that they would be safer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is true for Serbs as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

 7     Some Serb families left Kljuc municipality to go to Serbia, to go abroad,

 8     because they felt unsafe because of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, was that also more than 50 per cent, that

10     Serbs, the percentage, that left?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were fewer than 50 per cent

12     of Serbs, so it was a smaller percentage of Serbs.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What approximately?  How many families is it

14     in your recollection that left for safety purposes, Serb families?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot say exactly how

16     many there were.  All I know is that they left the Kljuc municipality

17     area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking for exact number.  Is it ten

19     families, is it 500 families, is it -- approximately, if you know?  If

20     you say I've got no idea how many left, then please tell us as well.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know the exact

22     number.  All I know is that they were leaving the territory of Kljuc

23     municipality.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You apparently ignored that I said that you

25     didn't have to give exact figures.

Page 30536

 1             But, please, Ms. Edgerton proceed.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Your priority wasn't about protecting the Muslims from any of the

 4     crimes we've been discussing, was it?

 5        A.   That is not so.  Members of the Army of Republika Srpska were

 6     told how they should conduct themselves, in what manner, and not to

 7     commit crimes against enemy forces.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look at one last document to wrap this

 9     up today.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  P3769, please.

11        Q.   It's a report dated 16 February 1993 to the 1 KK Command from

12     Slobodan Dakic, and it's about a meeting of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly

13     and the situation in Kljuc from that period of time.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over to page 2 in both

15     languages, the second-to-last full paragraph, I think, from the bottom.

16        Q.   It says with respect to the onset of the war --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  It's the last full paragraph from the bottom.

18        Q.   With respect to the onset of the war in Kljuc municipality --

19             MS. EDGERTON:  In fact, we can start at the paragraph above.

20        Q.   I want to focus you on one sentence.  It says:

21             "The Serbian army, police and Serbian people crushed and routed

22     genocide prone Ustashas in one fell swoop and cleansed the remaining

23     Ustashas from Kljuc."

24             And then says:

25             "By this act, the Serbian people made a clean break once and for

Page 30537

 1     all with the centuries-old enemy."

 2             In the next paragraph, it says -- it talks about:

 3             "Individuals and small and large groups of people began illegally

 4     appropriating Muslim property in Muslim villages and hamlets during

 5     combat operations" in some of the area we've been discussing and

 6     continued to do so when operations ended.  This was done by military

 7     personnel, members of the police, and local Serbs.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Now if we can go on to page three 3 both language.

 9     I think the fifth paragraph.

10        Q.   It says --

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.  I have to find it

12     on the page.  Uh-huh.

13        Q.   "Those and other acts," referring to different crimes.

14             "Those and other acts are being committed in full views of those

15     who were supposed to stop and prevent them and this in full co-ordinated

16     action and co-operation of civilian and military police."

17             Mr. Kevac, these crimes were all about pushing the non-Serbs out

18     of Kljuc municipality and provoking fear in those that remained.  That's

19     what this document shows.  And, once again, my question is:  You're

20     contradicted by the contemporaneous evidence, aren't you?

21        A.   I didn't know about anything like that.  What I see now is that

22     somebody has written something.  I don't know who it was.  The person who

23     wrote it was not a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.  So as far as

24     these political decisions and events in the Kljuc municipal territory is

25     concerned, I don't know what happened, what they discussed amongst

Page 30538

 1     themselves ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You say the author was not a member of the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska.  Do you know the author?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat what I said.  I think

 5     it was Dakic.  I think Dakic was a journalist in the Kljuc municipality

 6     area.  As far as I know, he was not a member of the army.  I don't know

 7     if he was or not.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you testified that he was not.  You said he

 9     was not a member of the army, and now you tell us that you don't know.

10     That -- you should be more cautious in not giving evidence where you,

11     three seconds later, say you don't know.  Apart from, I think, that

12     Ms. Edgerton told you what his position was when she introduced the

13     document, but let's leave it to that.

14             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   And the fact is, the military and civilian police committing

17     crimes with impunity against the Muslims in Kljuc removed any real choice

18     they might have had about staying in their municipality; right?

19        A.   I cannot confirm whether this is so or not so.  This person wrote

20     that and he probably felt that was so.  I already said that after the

21     Muslim forces surrendered, the majority of Muslims left the municipality

22     of Kljuc, and after that houses were burned individually, and so on and

23     so forth.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, a minute ago you told us that you did not know

25     whether the houses were torched during the operation or after the

Page 30539

 1     operation.  Now you tell us that it was after the operation.

 2             Could you tell us what's the source of your knowledge that it did

 3     not happen during the operations?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know whether

 5     it was during the operation or after the operation.  All I know is that

 6     houses were burned, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, a second ago, you said:

 8             "After the Muslims had left, houses were burned individually,"

 9     which means after the operations.

10             Isn't that how I have to understand your testimony?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know for sure.

12     I know that I did see burned-down houses.  I don't know whether that was

13     in the course of the cleansing operation or after the cleansing

14     operation.  That's something I cannot confirm.  I assume that it happened

15     then and afterwards.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time in your testimony you say it

17     happened afterwards, after you had half an hour ago told us that you

18     don't know.

19             I'm pointing at this because we noticed that you'll change your

20     testimony sometimes easily even within a few minutes and you're here to

21     tell us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  And if

22     you don't know anything, the whole truth is:  I don't know.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  I actually have nothing further, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 30540

 1             Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any questions in re-examination.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 8        Q.   Colonel, you were asked today by the Prosecutor -- actually, it

 9     was put to you by the Prosecutor that these Muslim forces in these

10     villages did not pose a danger to you.  How did the army view the attack

11     on a radio repeater relay, the capturing the soldiers in one village, and

12     the armed assault on a convoy of unarmed soldiers resulting in dozens of

13     casualties?

14        A.   The army viewed that as a danger in relation to the army and the

15     Serbian people in that territory.

16        Q.   Now, I believe you mentioned in your testimony that there were

17     other villages which were not searched for weapons that were inhabited by

18     Muslims in Kljuc municipality.  Had those villages inhabited by Muslims

19     that were not searched, had they committed any assaults or attacks

20     against the army in the end of May 1992?

21        A.   There were no incidents or attacks in those villages on members

22     of the army or the police.

23        Q.   Now, I'd like to go step by step through what would be expected

24     in a standard mopping up operation per applicable JNA military doctrine.

25             First of all, what would be expected for individuals who

Page 30541

 1     surrendered weapons, perhaps even legally owned weapons, and for whom the

 2     processing revealed they had not participated in combat activity or

 3     hostile activity.  Now, what would happen to them after they were

 4     processed in a standard scenario?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, we're interested in what happened not in

 6     standard scenarios.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  We'll get to that, Your Honour.  I intend to use a

 8     document that Ms. Edgerton introduced yesterday that will show us what

 9     happened, and I want to see if that's in accord with what would be the

10     standard procedure.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             Please answer the question, Witness.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A standard check of the weapons

14     means checking if the weapons were not used in combat, the owner would

15     receive his weapon back, and he would be informed about what the legal

16     terms were for possessing and keeping weapons.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   And in the case that it was determined that he had not used his

19     weapon in combat, what would the result be?  Would that individual remain

20     in someone's custody or not?

21        A.   In that case, the individual probably would not be kept any

22     longer in detention because there would no evidence for keeping him in

23     detention any longer.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And now I'd like to go to a document that was used

25     yesterday, because Your Honours want to see the situation in Kljuc at the

Page 30542

 1     time.  And that is P3923; English page 59, B/C/S page 77.  If we can go

 2     to the next page in the Serbian.

 3        Q.   Sir, at the top of the page under -- in Serbian in results, at

 4     the bottom of the page in English, we see for this action the 29th of

 5     May in the villages of Pudin Han, Velagici, Donji Ramici, Sehici, the

 6     results say:

 7             "Arrested: 250 people who surrendered their weapons.  After

 8     investigation, 100 were released to go home."

 9             Is this reporting from army organs reporting of a situation that

10     you'd expect as standard in a legitimate mopping up operation per JNA

11     doctrine?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   If we look at the next line:

14             "About 1.000 refugees in the village of Ljusa:  They were allowed

15     to return home after a search of nearby villages."

16             Is this action as reported in this military document in accord

17     with the standard procedure for post-mopping up operation as understood

18     under JNA doctrine?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- Mr. Ivetic, could I seek some

22     clarification.

23             The refugees in the village of Ljusa, where did they come from,

24     what was their ethnicity, to the extent you know?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Ljusa is not in the

Page 30543

 1     Kljuc municipality area.  I'm not sure, but it was inhabited by Muslims.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But by Muslim refugees?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what that is.

 4     It says 1.000 refugees.  They left their village and then they returned

 5     to their village.  Refugee status, according to international rules, is

 6     something else.  Here it was just a brief period when they left their

 7     village, they were in a different area, and then they returned to their

 8     villages.  I don't know if they were actually refugees.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any personal knowledge about what

10     happened in Ljusa?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15             And if we go back to the prior page in B/C/S, and it is the third

16     bullet point from the 30th pd in both languages.

17        Q.   "These areas will be difficult to hold because part of the forces

18     fled to nearby mountains: An attack from these areas can be expected."

19             Is this in accord with the information that you received

20     subsequent to the actions in this area?

21        A.   That information was submitted to the division commander about a

22     number of Muslim TO members handing over their weapons and a number not

23     having handed over their weapons and that they escaped into the hills and

24     the woods.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move to a different topic.  Yesterday

Page 30544

 1     at transcript page --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Yes?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- since we are still on this page --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would like to have a few more questions.

 7             We just talked about the portion of this document, perhaps we

 8     move to the next page in B/C/S again, about the thousand refugees in

 9     Ljusa.  The document also talks about:

10             "Arrested: 250 people who surrendered their weapons.  After

11     investigation, 100 were released to go home."

12             Do you have any personal knowledge of what happened and ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any

14     personal information or personal knowledge about what was happening.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether the 100 would have been elderly or

16     military-aged men, you wouldn't know?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You also would not know what kind of weapons were

19     surrendered, whether these were legal or illegal weapons?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that either.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Colonel, yesterday at transcript page 30496, 30498, and 30499,

25     you were talking of something that was translated as joint action and

Page 30545

 1     co-ordinated action, but I believe the Serbian word you used was

 2     "sadejstvo."  Could you please identify for us first is "sadejstvo" a

 3     recognised JNA combat doctrine?

 4        A.   Yes, the term sadejstvo, co-ordinated action, is defined in

 5     documents and rules of combat of the JNA, as well as in all combat

 6     documents and rules of all the armies.  That term appears in all such

 7     documents.

 8        Q.   If an army unit is operating in "sadejstvo," or co-ordinated

 9     action, with a police units in the field, can the army commanding officer

10     in the field issue orders to that police unit?

11        A.   Co-ordinated action implies that two different units are carrying

12     their own assignments and that each one is helping the other in executing

13     their assignments.  This is co-ordinated action.  It does not imply the

14     command authority of one unit over another unit; in this case, the

15     command authority over the police unit.

16        Q.   Now, also in the case of "sadejstvo," or co-ordinated action,

17     between an army unit and a police unit in the field, to whom would those

18     police units submit their post-action reports?  Would it be to the army

19     commander?

20        A.   They would submit reports to their own superior officer.

21     Probably information would be exchanged with the other unit, the one that

22     they were carrying out their co-ordinated action with.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at transcript page 30498, lines 5 through 6

24     yesterday, you started to give an example from your own personal

25     experience of when you operated together with a police unit in an area

Page 30546

 1     but you were not permitted to finish your answer and give this example.

 2             Could you please tell us about your personal experience of how a

 3     co-ordinated action was undertaken between your unit and a police unit

 4     which you started telling us about yesterday?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was a special police unit whose task was to go to a

 6     certain area and together with units from the 2nd Krajina Corps on the

 7     strength of the 3rd Petrovac Brigade, whose task was to be carried out on

 8     a condition that my brigade carried out its task.  After a certain time

 9     they came to the corps command where I was, and they told us that their

10     engagement period was over.  It was a police unit.  They were to return

11     to their base irrespective of the fact that they did not manage to carry

12     out the mission that they had been given by their command.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to move to my last topic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  I have three questions, Your Honours.  I see we're

15     close to the time for a break, but I have exactly three questions.  So I

16     leave it to your discretion whether you want to try to finish before

17     or --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we'd prefer to try to finish.

19             I'm also looking at you, Ms. Edgerton.  I don't know whether

20     you'd need -- have any further questions as matters stand now?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Not so far.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll try to conclude before we take a break.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Sir, yesterday at transcript page 30471, lines 7 through 9, you

25     were asked if the 17th Kljuc Brigade of the VRS was formed in April 1992.

Page 30547

 1     Do you know when the VRS itself was formed?

 2        A.   The VRS was established on the 12th of May, 1992.

 3        Q.   At the time that you were assigned for the first time to the

 4     30th Partisan Division in May of 1992, did the Kljuc Light Infantry

 5     Brigade exist as a formation?

 6        A.   No, it did not exist.

 7        Q.   When the Kljuc Light Infantry Brigade was formed in the beginning

 8     of June 1992, did the 30th Division continue to operate any units on the

 9     territory of the Kljuc municipality?  And by "operate," I mean have

10     command over.

11        A.   It did not have a command.

12        Q.   Colonel, I thank you for answering my questions.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I thank you for the extra couple of

14     minutes.  That concludes my re-direct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And I thank you for sticking very strictly to your

16     three questions.  The last question sometimes is the last of a series of

17     questions, but you strictly adhered to that number, three.

18             Have matters changed?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, this concludes your testimony before this

22     Court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

23     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that you were put to

24     you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

25     again.

Page 30548

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at quarter past

 5     12.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  We are calling

10     Mr. Sabljic, Slavisa.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to address

12     the following matter.  We -- the Chamber received on the 21st of

13     January information from the Prosecution that the Prosecution will not --

14     as matters stand now, sees no reason to cross-examine the witness, and I

15     think it's not a protected witness, Borislav Fejzovic, which means that

16     the Chamber, taking matters step by step, does the same as it did

17     (redacted), that is, to instruct the Defence --

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That we take it step by step and that we will

21     instruct the Defence to postpone calling this witness so that we can

22     further consider the situation, and that will be until further notice.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way when I earlier said 21st of January I

Page 30549

 1     made a mistake, if that's what I said, because it was the 23rd of

 2     January.

 3             Good morning, Witness.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 6     make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  May I invite

 7     you to make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  SLAVISA SABLJIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

15     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for the Defence, for

16     Mr. Mladic.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sabljic.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Could you please slowly tell us your name for the record.

23        A.   Slavisa Sabljic.

24        Q.   Mr. Sabljic, did you provide members of the Defence team of

25     General Mladic a statement?

Page 30550

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D01748.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] You can see a document on the screen.  It is

 4     your statement in B/C/S, which is a reference to our language here at

 5     this Tribunal.  Do you see a signature on this page and do you recognise

 6     it?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Whose signature is this?

 9        A.   It's mine.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last page in

11     the statement.

12        Q.   Do you see signatures on this page and do you recognise them?

13        A.   Yes, I see them and I recognise them, of course.  These are my

14     signatures.

15        Q.   You had an opportunity to look at the statement.  Would you say

16     that everything that you stated before the General Mladic Defence team

17     was properly recorded?

18        A.   Yes, fully and properly.

19        Q.   And, as for the statement contents, is that correct and truthful,

20     to the best of your knowledge?

21        A.   Yes, because this is exactly what I said.

22        Q.   Mr. Sabljic, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

23     would you provide the same answers?

24        A.   Yes, completely.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we would like to tender

Page 30551

 1     Mr. Sabljic's statement into evidence in this case.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01748 receives Exhibit D876,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D876 is admitted.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would, with your leave, just read a

 7     short -- actually summary statement of this witness and I will not have

 8     any questions for the witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please then read the summary of the statement.

10             MR. LUKIC:  As Judge Moloto reminded me, short summary statement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I -- yes, it's not recorded, but it went

12     through my mind as well, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Sabljic is a professional journalist.  Before the

17     war he worked for Oslobodjenje daily newspapers.  He was mobilised into

18     the 2nd Krajina Corps on the 1st of June, 1992.  Mr. Sabljic witnessed

19     the beginning of fighting in Croatia, like fighting in Kijevo village.

20             He reported about combat activities of the Croat army on the

21     territory of B and H.  He also reported about fighting in the Kupres

22     area.

23             Mr. Sabljic witnessed demeanour of Serbian political figures

24     toward the VRS and problems with logistics.

25             Mr. Sabljic had several encounters with General Mladic and will

Page 30552

 1     testify about the same.  He will testify that General Mladic did not

 2     allow Serb soldiers to wear Serbian nationalistic insignia.  He was also

 3     present when General Mladic was wounded on the front line.

 4             Mr. Sabljic witnessed the fall of west municipalities and

 5     witnessed General Mladic's efforts to stop civilians from leaving this

 6     territory.

 7             Mr. Sabljic witnessed the consequences when, on the 7th of

 8     August, 1995, a Croatian aircraft bombed the column of civilian refugees

 9     near the village of Janjila in Bosanski Petrovac municipality.

10             And that was all we had for this statement summary.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It, indeed, is a short summary, Mr. Lukic.

12             Witness, you'll be cross-examined now by Ms. Edgerton.  You'll

13     find her to your right.  Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the Prosecution.

14     And the Judges have read your statement, so it's not that we do not pay

15     proper attention to it but there's no need to repeat everything here in

16     court, and it was summarised by Mr. Lukic.

17             Ms. Edgerton.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sabljic.  Can you hear me okay?

20        A.   Good afternoon.  Yes, I can, good afternoon.

21        Q.   All right.  I want to talk you just for a little while about your

22     references to Kijevo in statement at page 3, paragraph 6.  Page 3 in

23     English.  And there you talked about what you call the liberation of

24     Kijevo in August of 1991, and you described it as a great military

25     victory and that was the first time you met General Mladic.

Page 30553

 1             So just a couple of questions about Kijevo.  Kijevo is a small

 2     Croat town; right?

 3        A.   Before the war, it was a local commune.  It was not even a town.

 4     In the former state, in terms of its administration, organisation, and

 5     structure, it was a local commune, albeit a big one.

 6        Q.   All right.  And let just talk about the inhabited area then.  It

 7     was a Croatian inhabited area in a larger expanse that was predominantly

 8     Serb.  Is that fair?

 9        A.   Yes.  On the right-hand side going from Knin to Kijevo is Velika,

10     and then from Kijevo to Sinj, the road forks off towards the Dinara

11     range.  There's a village called Unista inhabited by Croats and Serbs in

12     an equal proportion, of course.

13        Q.   And the attack that you refer to, that happened on the 26th of

14     August, 1991, and it was personally commanded by General Mladic; right?

15        A.   The attack did not last one day.  It took several days, and the

16     then-colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army, Slavko Lisica, was in charge.

17     His command was above Kijevo in the red lands.  And as for General

18     Mladic, I saw him when he entered Kijevo and that was at high noon on the

19     26th of August, I believe.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you continue with this speed of speech,

21     your testimony will be over yesterday.

22             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, could you please slow down so that the

24     interpreters have the time to interpret what you say so that we also hear

25     what you say.

Page 30554

 1             Please proceed.

 2             And I may use my hands now and then to slow you down.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   And --

 6        A.   I apologise.

 7        Q.   And the -- that attack was executed, the operation was executed

 8     in co-operation with the troops of SAO Krajina, right, Martic's people?

 9        A.   No.  That attack was executed in co-ordination with members of

10     the Territorial Defence of the former Yugoslav People's Army.  The

11     Serbian Army of Krajina or, rather, units of the future Serbian Army of

12     Krajina were engaged in that attack, primarily their artillery was.

13             During -- I apologise.  During that time, two Galeb ships of the

14     Yugoslav People's Army were also engaged.  They didn't open fire but I

15     saw them from St. Michael's, the church.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  It's not ship but

17     aircrafts.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them circling above Kijevo

19     from behind St. Michael's church.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   But just to be precise, when you saw them circling that was after

22     the attack was over; right?

23        A.   Yes, the attack was over and our units or, rather, our troops

24     entered Kijevo already.  Before that, if you will allow me, I would like

25     to say that some 5 or 6 kilometres away from Knin, I came across -- or

Page 30555

 1     was in the company of the members of the delegation of the

 2     then-Yugoslavia, its Presidency.  They had arrived in two Mercedes cars

 3     in the village of Ceke.  They told me that they came in order to --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, is that what you wished to hear about

 5     as well?  Because it was not part of your question.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  It wasn't part of my question and I suspect the

 7     gentleman may be repeating his written evidence which --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there's no need to do that.  Please focus on

 9     the question.  The question was whether they were circling after the

10     attack was over.  You've answered that question.

11             Next question, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   So it's clear to me now that you -- you were in Kijevo so you

15     must have seen that, as a result of the attack, Kijevo was damaged;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.  What preceded was artillery fire from the position --

18     positions of the army, i.e., the Territorial Defence of the former JNA

19     that came from the direction of Ceke.

20        Q.   And you know then probably that General Mladic was actually

21     convicted in absentia in a trial in Croatia for, among other things, the

22     destruction of Kijevo by the indiscriminate use of this artillery.  You

23     know that; right?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 30556

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Then let's have a look at 65 ter number 00828.

 2        Q.   It's a copy of the judgement in the case against General Mladic

 3     that I've just described, and that's -- you see the first page in your

 4     language.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And we can go to B/C/S page 4 and English page 6.

 6        Q.   So here you see in front of you a paragraph of the first page of

 7     the decision, and it actually, Mr. Sabljic, supplements -- corroborates

 8     and supplements what you say in terms of the operation in Kijevo.  About

 9     halfway through that first paragraph, it says:

10             [As read] "From 5.15 a.m. till 9.00 p.m. of the same day, fire

11     was opened from all available tank-mounted weapons, artillery pieces, and

12     rocket-launchers, and about 1600 shells of all calibres were fired and an

13     unknown number of larger bombs, including 16 cluster bombs were dropped

14     due to which Kijevo village was almost completely destroyed and burnt."

15             And then when the units of the JNA and Serbian Chetnik renegade

16     gangs entered it was also pillaged.

17             Now just in terms --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Edgerton, if you reading something it should

19     be really exactly what we can read there as well.  If, for instance, you

20     spoke about an unknown number of larger bombs, but it is an unknown large

21     number of bombs.  You mixed up the two terms.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me, Your Honours.  Yes, an unknown -- quite

23     correct.  I apologise.

24        Q.   Now, just to speak in terms of the artillery that was used and

25     other bombs that were used against Kijevo, it looks like the quantity

Page 30557

 1     involved tanks in the area, heavy and lighter weapons, artillery pieces,

 2     and rocket-launchers, and 16 cluster bombs -- 1600 shells of all

 3     calibres, including 16 cluster bombs.

 4             So you seem pretty well-informed about that operation.  Is this

 5     consistent with the information that you've heard and your personal

 6     observations?

 7        A.   If you will allow me, I would like to share some details with

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You're, first of all, invited to answer the

10     question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, there's a difference

12     between a bomb and a grenade.  A grenade round comes from heavy

13     artillery.  There were no tanks there but there were armoured combat

14     vehicles which analysts, or rather people who drafted these reports,

15     considered one and the same.  In other words, what was fired were mortar

16     rounds.  I was brought to Kijevo by a combat vehicle which carried

17     soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the ethnic

19     background of those soldiers.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you, Witness, please repeat the ethnic

21     background of the soldiers you were referring to.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two Siptars, one Muslim, and I was

23     with them, as well as one Croat.  [In English] Sorry.

24             [Interpretation] But they all told me that they intended to leave

25     Knin-Krajina, and they indeed did leave some ten days later.

Page 30558

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you now answer the question, sir.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please remind me of the question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   I read to you a long list of the types of fire that had been

 6     fired -- the types of weapons that had been fired against Kijevo, and I

 7     wanted to know, since you were there, if the damage that you saw, if the

 8     remains that you saw, was consistent, this -- was consistent with your

 9     recollection and observations.

10        A.   Kijevo was demolished, but not to the same degree as a month ago

11     when I returned to Kijevo and there were no more citizens there.  It

12     looked completely different.  You know what comes after an assault.

13     There was a lot of looting and all kinds of things like that.

14        Q.   So do I understand you correct when you say Kijevo -- as a result

15     of this attack, Kijevo was actually -- it was destroyed; right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  But I said that this was not as much on that day as a

17     month later when I came back again.

18        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, everybody that -- the story of the attack on

19     Kijevo was made very public.  You wrote about it, your colleagues from

20     Oslobodjenje wrote about it.  Everybody knew what had happened there,

21     right, is that fair?

22        A.   Of the colleagues, nobody was there except me, Branko Peric, who

23     was an editor in Knin entered it with me on that occasion.  The two of us

24     were the only ones who wrote about it, and this was published.  After us,

25     teams came from Slobodna Dalmacija, Belgrade Politika,

Page 30559

 1     Television Belgrade.  This is what I can remember.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, I'm going to play you some excerpts from a

 3     series of tape-recorded conversations, and I'll tell you they're

 4     tape-recorded conversations involving General Mladic, and they were

 5     recovered by the Serbian authorities in February 2010 from his premises.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  They're contained within 65 ter number 01643, and

 7     with your leave, Your Honours, we'll -- they're very brief excerpts,

 8     three of them, and we'll play them once very briefly and then have them,

 9     of course, interpreted, with your leave, so that they can be confirmed by

10     my colleagues.

11             The first one I'd like to play is 65 ter number 01643d, page 17.

12     It begins at page 17 -- or it's an excerpt from a conversation between

13     Mladic and one of his subordinates named Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav.  And

14     before it just begins I want to tell you, Mr. Sabljic, they come from an

15     audiotape that has had a label on it that says 10 October 1991.

16             And I'm starting the timer at time code 4:56.

17             And for the booths, by the way, the excerpt we're going to play

18     has been highlighted.

19             It seems like we're not getting volume.  We'll try one more time.

20             Your Honours, I'm sorry, but it looks like we have a technical

21     issue, and unfortunately because the cross-examination is rather brief,

22     the anticipated cross-examination, I'm not able to really easily move on

23     to another topic to allow for my colleagues to fix the technical issue.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What we could do is to take a very early break which

25     would leave 65 minutes after the break, and then that you test the

Page 30560

 1     equipment and the audio and that we would then resume at ten minutes past

 2     1.00.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I would be grateful Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but Judge Moloto would like to say something

 5     before we.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             Witness, at page 10, line 11 today, you are recorded as having

 8     said that Kijevo was demolished but not to the same degree as a month ago

 9     when I returned to Kijevo.  A month ago would mean December 2015 [sic].

10             But on the same page, at line 18, you are recorded as having said

11     "a month later, when I came back," which would mean a month immediately

12     after the destruction.  Which is the correct between the two?  Did you go

13     back to Kijevo last month or did go back to Kijevo a month after the

14     destruction of Kijevo?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Kijevo was destroyed

16     when the Yugoslav People's Army entered it on the 26th of August, but it

17     wasn't destroyed as much as a month later, after I came to Kijevo.  So it

18     was a month later that.  That was the second part of what I said.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you so much.  Thank you, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we're resolving all kind of problems because I

21     do understand that the audio is functioning now as well.  So therefore I

22     suggest that we continue for the time being.

23             I don't know for how long your cross-examination.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  I anticipate somewhere around 40 minutes, barring

25     no other issues.

Page 30561

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So it could even be that take then a late

 2     break after that.  But let's first then proceed.

 3             We'll now play the audio which Ms. Edgerton announced a few

 4     minutes ago, Mr. Sabljic.

 5                           [Audiotape played]

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And, for the record, time code -- ending time code

 7     of the clip is 5:28:4.

 8        Q.   Now the next one, the next very --

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, pardon me.  We have to play it again with my

10     colleagues in the booth.

11                            [Audiotape played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ratko Mladic:  Everything is

13     blocked.  Here.  Let me get you updated on the situation.  Listen.

14             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes?

15             "Ratko Mladic:  We have completely encircled Zadar, from all four

16     sides.  The navy is firing from the sea, the airforce from the air, we

17     from the ground.

18             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes.

19             "Ratko Mladic:  We have carried out a successful operation, we

20     have entered the town.  The only thing left for them to do is to

21     surrender completely.

22             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes.

23             "Ratko Mladic:  And to release Sibenik and Zadar and Split.

24             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes.

25             "Ratko Mladic:  If they do not agree to that and do not do as we

Page 30562

 1     dictate, we will continue with operations.

 2             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes.

 3             "Ratko Mladic:  Destruction of Zadar and then the destruction of

 4     the rest of the towns.  We can do that.

 5             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav:  Yes."

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Now I'll just move on to the second

 7     excerpt, from the same tape cassette, by the way, and it's an excerpt

 8     from a conversation between General Mladic and a man who's one of his

 9     subordinates but he's not been identified yet, and it's

10     65 ter number 01643e.  Page 23 in English.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now earlier you indicated the time codes for the

12     beginning and the end.  Do you intend to do the same?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.  And the time code for this one is

14     01:34.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the start.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18                           [Audiotape played]

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And the closing time code is 1:49:02 for this

20     excerpt.  If we could now play it again.

21                             [Audiotape played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Right, right.  Continue to defend

23     yourselves.  Some negotiations are being conducted in Zadar, they asked

24     us to halt further fire.  We have placed Zadar in a noose.  We were

25     hitting it for two and a half days from the air, from the ground and from

Page 30563

 1     the sea and we have burst into the town from all sides.

 2             "All right, all right.  We will stay in touch (unintelligible)

 3     information on how to continue so that we can do this specifically

 4     tomorrow."

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And then one final conversation, 65 ter number

 6     01643c, pages 26 and 27 in English.  And the beginning time code for this

 7     excerpt, which is an excerpt of a conversation between Mladic and one of

 8     his subordinates named Marko, is 03:51.

 9                           [Audiotape played]

10             MS. EDGERTON:  End of the time code for the end of the clip is

11     04:17:03.

12                             [Audiotape played]

13             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ratko Mladic:  That's right.  Say

14     hello to him too, say - Mladic has the firing data down and is telling

15     you that Kijevo will be a garden of flowers compared to what you will

16     experience if you should touch me.

17             "Marko (surname unknown):  Clear.

18             "Ratko Mladic:  Maximum supplies.  Above your quota.

19             "Marko (surname unknown):  Clear.  They have not actually touched

20     us these past two or three days - nothing.

21             "Ratko Mladic:  They dare not touch you at all because that is my

22     quota and for Split too I will strike, I have began to hack away at

23     Dubrovnik.  Cheers.

24             "Marko (surname unknown):  All right.  We'll be in touch.  Bye.

25             "Ratko Mladic:  Stay strong.

Page 30564

 1             Marko (surname unknown):  All right."

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now you've heard everything okay, Mr. Sabljic?  You've been able

 4     to hear everything clearly?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   All right.  So you would agree with me that what you've heard is

 7     Mladic saying he has ringed Zadar.  He said that, right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And he's shelling Zadar?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And he's expressly relying, when he is discussing his military

12     actions, his intended military actions against Zadar with his

13     subordinates, he is expressly relying on the fact that everybody knew

14     about the destruction of Kijevo; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And that his intention is to destroy Zadar and the destruction in

17     Kijevo will be a flower garden compared to what Zadar is going to feel;

18     right?  That's what you heard.

19        A.   I am hearing this for the first time.

20        Q.   You heard General Mladic say Kijevo -- and I'll give you the

21     exact words again.  You heard General Mladic say:

22             "Kijevo will be a garden of flowers compared to what you will

23     experience if you should touch me."

24             Right?

25        A.   Yes, I heard that.

Page 30565

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have those three excerpts, please,

 3     Your Honours, 65 ter number 01643c, d, and e as Prosecution Exhibits

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Just for the record --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- we always object to admission of intercepts, so we

 9     will object this time as well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And again here on the basis?  The witness identified

11     that he recognised the voice of Mr. Mladic.  That's at least what I heard

12     him say.

13             MR. LUKIC:  If -- I -- I don't -- at this moment since we had a

14     problem with the -- locating the documents used now in the

15     cross-examination, I cannot confirm date -- date frame or time-frame,

16     actually, and dates, so it's hard for me to actually now not object.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether that's an admissibility issue is

18     another matter.  But let me just consult with my colleagues.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to give you time to develop your

21     objections, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber exceptionally will MFI it and not at

22     this moment insist on --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to inform the Chamber that I just got

24     DVDs with these recordings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll -- you have, although limited, time to

Page 30566

 1     further develop your objections.  It -- the -- Ms. Edgerton, when was the

 2     Defence aware of this audio to be used with this witness?

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  With our cross-examination list when the witness

 5     took the stand, which is our practice.  And just by way --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just wondering --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether -- at what time Mr. Lukic has had

 9     already.

10             And, of course, there is always some -- you never know what will

11     happen in cross-examination, Mr. Lukic.

12             But at this, moment we will MFI it.

13             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  01643d receives MFI P7052, 01653e receives MFI

15     P7053, and 01643c receives MFI P7054, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The three audio clips are MFI'd in accordance with

17     the numbers just read out by Madam Registrar.

18             Mr. Lukic, you are aware that there is a fair chance that we will

19     already would conclude the evidence of this witness today, so therefore

20     please keep this in mind when further thinking about objections.

21             Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  And just way of assistance to Mr. Lukic, these are

23     actually not intercepted conversations.  These are excerpts from the

24     audiotapes.  So they're tape-recorded conversations that were found in

25     the Mr. Mladic premises in 2010.  Just so he is perfectly clear, and ...

Page 30567

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And one final thing that might abbreviate things

 3     later:  Two excerpts from this have already been admitted as P1958 and

 4     P1959, I think.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.

 7        Q.   And, now, Mr. Sabljic, as a journalist, did you -- did you by any

 8     chance cover the Bosnian Serb Assembly session, the 16th Session, on the

 9     12th of May, 1992?

10        A.   No.  I never covered, nor was it my task to cover the work of the

11     parliament of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then

12     later the parliament of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to show you actually a copy of the -- the -- the

14     transcript of those proceedings.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  It's P431.  And when we get the document, I'd like

16     us to go to e-court page 42 in English and page 35 in B/C/S.

17        Q.   Because there General Mladic talks about the success of the

18     operation in Kijevo.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  P431.

20        Q.   Mr. Sabljic, do you see something on the screen in front of you

21     because I don't, so I just want to check that you at least have something

22     in front of you?

23        A.   I have the English version on my right side, but it doesn't seem

24     to be a translation of the text that I see in the Serbian.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  In Serbian, it should be page -- B/C/S page 35,

Page 30568

 1     about ten lines from the top I'd like you to go to, and we'll see if

 2     we've got this accurately.  And in English, we're looking at about 20

 3     lines from the bottom going up.

 4        Q.   Now, do you see -- and this is General Mladic -- oh.  This is

 5     General Mladic talking, and he -- he talks about the -- the success of

 6     the operation in Kijevo and he uses it as an example of how things should

 7     be handled.  And do you see where he says it would be absolutely out of

 8     the question to have 1.000 commanders in one zone.  The Knin Corps was

 9     successful because under a single command in the zone of the corps were

10     the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and Martic's people -- Martic's

11     police, pardon me.  And then he says:  "Isn't that right, Martic?"  And

12     then he continues and says:

13             "And because he and I, I call him and say give me 40 policemen

14     here at Kijevo and you took part in the fighting, isn't that right,

15     Milan, and we did what we had planned, and we planned, and we will have

16     artillery here and this artillery acts.  Comrades and gentlemen,"

17     referring to Sarajevo, he says, "the artillery cannot continue acting as

18     it has up to now for two reasons ..."

19             And then I'd like to go own to another quote.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  In English, page 36, line 6, and in B/C/S, page

21     29, two lines from the bottom.

22             And we could get through this quote, and then I could ask the

23     questions after the break, Your Honour.

24        Q.   General Mladic says -- about Sarajevo, he says:

25             "That's not how you win a war.  If you want to make the Muslims

Page 30569

 1     surrender, 300 guns must be densely planted around Sarajevo" --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where can we find that?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  The note that I've made for myself is that it's on

 4     page 36, line 6, so I think we need to --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In English or B/C/S?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  In the English.  And it's -- yeah, I think I've

 7     got it right, Your Honours.  It's very dense text.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And in B/C/S text you should direct the attention

 9     of the witness to the right line.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Page 29, two lines from the bottom.  And I see it

11     there in front of me in B/C/S as well, but in B/C/S we'll have to watch

12     because we'll have to go over to the next page very quickly.

13        Q.   So there, Mladic says:

14             "This isn't how you win a war.  If we want to make the Muslims

15     surrender, 300 guns must be densely" --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have to move to the next page.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Because the 300 are the last line in B/C/S.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   "... must be densely planted around Sarajevo of calibre ranging

21     from Zolja 40 to 64-millimetres to Orkan and P-65 rockets.  And Sarajevo,

22     I don't need any applause, mate, I'm not doing it for that or for

23     recognition, I am just doing it to avenge the bones of my dead comrades.

24     Because when I think of them, I cannot speak.  I will tell you what

25     course of action I took at Zadar."

Page 30570

 1             So maybe I could just give you a couple of seconds to just follow

 2     that passage.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, I can ask the question after

 4     the break and then conclude very quickly after that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you put the question now already and

 6     then ...

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  No problem, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   So what -- what you see here in this 16th Assembly Session,

 9     Mr. Sabljic, is Mladic's disposition towards settled areas during war;

10     right?  He refers to Kijevo, he refers to Zadar, and he's suggesting

11     doing the same thing, using the same principles.  Fair?

12        A.   You know what?  Ratko Mladic is a soldier, a high-ranking

13     officer, and he was dealing with the military skills.  These are his

14     views, his position, his opinions.  I'm only talking about what I saw in

15     Kijevo.  This was said at a meeting, a session of the Republika Srpska

16     parliament.  If it's correct for the artillery to be positioned around a

17     town or not, that's something I don't know.  I know how to write, to

18     write what I see.  I only saw General Ratko Mladic once in Kijevo, and

19     today you are talking to me about three intercepts, five or six different

20     pages.  I don't know what's there.  I only saw him once when he met at

21     noon with Milan Martic in the centre of Kijevo, and I never saw him

22     again.  I can accept this as his military war time doctrine, as a job

23     that he is qualified for, but I don't understand it in the same way that

24     you don't understand it, perhaps.  I don't know.

25        Q.   And his doctrine is:  Close co-ordination with local Serbs, a

Page 30571

 1     single command, and ringing cities and using artillery against them.

 2     That's what we've read and heard in these intercepts and in this excerpt

 3     from the assembly session, isn't it?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We can read it ourselves as many times --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How does this relate, Ms. Edgerton, to the

 8     statement of the witness?  I mean, we are here -- you are here to

 9     cross-examine the witness - that is, to test his evidence and to, even

10     under one of the Rules you may elicit further evidence - but the witness

11     says:  I described the facts I observed.

12             Now -- so the first question, if you put to him whether the

13     witness has any knowledge about these conversations recorded, whether the

14     witness has any knowledge of what was said during parliament.  He is --

15     as a matter of fact, he said:  I'd never covered that.  So therefore, to

16     put this to the witness and more or less get a kind of an opinion about

17     what that all is on the basis of materials he may not be familiar with,

18     I -- I do not understand exactly how this works in terms of

19     cross-examination.

20             Could you clarify?  Because the witness couldn't tell us anything

21     about the conversations.  What he said is:  Do you hear him say this and

22     that?  Well, we don't need a witness for that because we can hear it

23     ourselves as well.  So therefore, I'm wondering what actually we are

24     listening to in this cross-examination.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll -- understood, Your Honour.  I'm going to

Page 30572

 1     withdraw these last questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we have done that before the break.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And nothing further, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing further.  No further -- this concludes then

 7     your cross-examination.

 8             I see Mr. Mladic is seeking to consult with counsel.  He can do

 9     so ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what we'd like to know is whether there

12     will be any re-examination.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Less then ten minutes.  Five.  In between five and

14     ten minutes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll do that after the break.  And

16     there's a fair chance, Witness, that you will -- that we'll be able to

17     conclude your testimony today.

18             We first take a break and we expect you back in 20 minutes.

19             We resume at 20 minutes to -- you may follow the usher.

20             No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic, you know the rules.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, it's now time to be silent again.

Page 30573

 1             The Chamber was informed that there was a brief matter to be

 2     introduced in private session.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session for a second.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 30574

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No audible conversations.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Mladic, now it's really time to not to

 4     remain silent but to become silent.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  This will be very brief one.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Sabljic.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Earlier on you spoke about damage in Kijevo.  Was there any

12     fighting going on in Kijevo itself?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Did the Croatian side open fire?

15        A.   Yes, for days.

16        Q.   Did the Croatian side use the Zoljas and Osas as far as you know?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And anti-armour rounds?

19        A.   I didn't know whether Zolja and Osa are used as anti-tanks

20     rounds.  I'm not familiar with military terminology.  But, yes, in any

21     case.

22        Q.   Did you use rocket-launchers?

23        A.   No, I don't know.  I don't know.

24        Q.   If you don't know, just say you don't know.  That's okay.

25             We heard from the Prosecutor on several occasions about 5702,

Page 30575

 1     that General Mladic threatened to destroy Zadar and Sibenik and that they

 2     would be become flower gardens of Kijevo.  Were Zadar and Sibenik indeed

 3     destroyed?

 4        A.   How should I know?  I don't know.

 5        Q.   Very well.  So after that you were never in Zadar or Sibenik?

 6        A.   Yes, I was there after the war but not during the war.

 7        Q.   What about the situation of JNA members, soldiers, and officers

 8     in Zadar and Sibenik at the time?  Do you know anything about that?

 9        A.   No, nothing.

10        Q.   At that time, did you know that the barracks were encircled in

11     Zadar and Sibenik?

12        A.   No, I didn't know that.  The closest I came to Zadar was

13     Donji Zemunik.  During the war there were two exchanges there, and that

14     was the closest I got to Zadar; therefore, I don't know anything about

15     Zadar.  Even less about Split or Sibenik.

16        Q.   Very well.  I won't have many question about that then.

17             Did you personally know some of the officers who left Zadar and

18     Sibenik after having been detained there?

19        A.   I knew and I still know Mika Mitrovic.  He was a member of the

20     staff of the 2nd Krajina Corps, subsequently.  I also knew

21     Colonel Paulovina [phoen].  I knew some other lower-ranking officers.  I

22     was particularly familiar with those who joined the 2nd Krajina Corps and

23     its command later, Boric, Velasevic [phoen], who came from Sinj.  Boric

24     came from Banja, and so on and so forth.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

Page 30576

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Tell us something about Mitrovic.  Do you know anything about him

 3     and how he felt when he left Sibenik?

 4        A.   I met Mitrovic --

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, sorry.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  In my submission, Your Honours, this is getting --

10     this was not --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  How does it arise --

12             MS. EDGERTON:  -- an issue that was raised in cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- from cross-examination, Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  We think that sometimes it is justified to utter

15     threats to achieve some goals.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the question was how it arises from

17     cross-examination.

18             MR. LUKIC:  It was mentioned that General Mladic was threatening

19     that he would destroy Sibenik and Zadar.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that was read to the witness, and I think that

21     the witness didn't comment in any way on it, and rightly so, because it

22     was just other evidence that was put to him.  And he said, How am in a

23     position to comment on that.  And I think that the Chamber, by stopping

24     Ms. Edgerton with the last series of questions, took the similar

25     position.  So --

Page 30577

 1             MR. LUKIC:  You are right.  He also answered the same way to my

 2     questions, so he has no knowledge.  I didn't know if he really does not

 3     have any knowledge about it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  So I would just pose one more question and then I

 6     would finish.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please put that question to the witness,

 8     and stick to the tradition established by Mr. Ivetic, that three

 9     questions is three questions and one question is one question.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] I don't know if you know, if you do tell us so,

13     if you don't know, again, tell us so.  Were you ever present when

14     General Mladic used threats in order to achieve goals?

15        A.   You mean when he made things conditional upon something?

16        Q.   When he threatened the other side.

17        A.   No, never.

18        Q.   I don't have any other questions.  Thank you, Mr. Sabljic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Ms. Edgerton, no further questions for the witness?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  No, thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions from the Bench.

23             Mr. Sabljic, you've been only for a short while with us but we

24     still have your statement in evidence and, of course, the answers you

25     gave to the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

Page 30578

 1     Bench.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

 2     The Hague and for having answered those questions.  You're excused.  I

 3     wish you a safe return home and you my follow the usher.

 4             And the usher is invited to bring the next witness on her way

 5     back to the courtroom.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you.  Thank you very much.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, your next witness would be Mr. Zoric?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Zoric.  Before you give

12     evidence, the Rules --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- require that you make a solemn declaration.  The

15     text is now handed out to you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  MILORAD ZORIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

21             Mr. Zoric, you'll now be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You find

22     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 30579

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zoric.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Kindly tell us your name for the record.  Do it slowly.

 4        A.   Milorad Zoric.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zoric, did you provide a statement to the Mladic Defence in

 6     written form?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

 9     call up 65 ter 1D01711.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say the number again, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D01711.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Zoric, you can see the text of a statement in front of you on

15     the screen.  I'm sure you can also see a signature below the personal

16     data.  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise your

17     signature on this piece of paper?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now look at the last page

20     in the same document.

21             Mr. Zoric, do you recognise your signature and date on this page

22     of the statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zoric, during the proofing, did you tell me that

25     you wanted to make several corrections and clarifications to your

Page 30580

 1     statement?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Let's run through your suggestions.  Let's look at paragraph 4.

 4             Did you tell me that in paragraph 4 instead of "I learned from

 5     the Muslims or "I found out from the Muslims," it should read --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, I need to repeat

 8     the sentence as it should read.

 9        Q.   Instead of "I found out from the Muslims," you said that it

10     should read:  "I found out from the security officers at the Bihac

11     barracks ..." Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.  In the meantime, I have even remembered the name of those

13     officers.

14        Q.   If necessary, you can give us the name of that one officer.

15        A.   If necessary, his name was Slobodan Jankovic.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at

18     paragraph 7.

19        Q.   Did you tell me that in the sixth sentence of this

20     statement [as interpreted], behind the word "according to JNA officer

21     statements," you wanted us to add the following words:  "who at the time

22     came down-town in civilian clothes."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at

Page 30581

 1     paragraph 17.

 2        Q.   Mr. Zoric, do you feel the need to change something in here?

 3     After the word -- or, rather, words "my mother," we should add the word:

 4     "my wife who left Bihac together with me."

 5        A.   Yes, correct.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again, Mr. Stojanovic.  You say after the

 7     word "my mother," you say my wife or -- or "and my wife."

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And my wife, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could we please look at paragraph 19 now.

12        Q.   Mr. Zoric, did you not suggest to me that it would be more

13     precise that in the first sentence you asked instead of the words

14     "throughout the war," it should say:  "From the 27th of October, 1994,

15     until the end of the war"?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at

19     paragraph 21, please.

20        Q.   Did you not tell me that the paragraph would be correct and more

21     precise if it were to state the following:

22             "I videotaped the statement of Karadzic and General Ninkovic

23     because General Mladic did not wish to give a statement for the media at

24     the assembly session in Sanski Most on the 14th of April, 1995, after

25     their differences in the assessment of the situation in the RS and the

Page 30582

 1     VRS"?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak into the

 3     microphone and repeat his answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer and speak into

 5     the microphone, Witness.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this correction was correct,

 7     as stated by Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, does that replace the existing text in

 9     paragraph 21?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I was asking the witness.

12             But you agree that this replaces the original text of

13     paragraph 21?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could I ask you the following.  It is not more

16     accurate.  It's just a totally different matter you are describing.  What

17     made you sign a statement which deals with videotaped argument on -- in

18     Sanski Most on the 16th of February, and now you say it would be more

19     accurate to say that it is about a statement from other persons on the

20     14th of April, apparently in -- yes, still in Sanski Most.

21             What explains why suddenly a totally new thing appears to replace

22     the old text?  What was wrong with the old text?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The old text is mistaken, it's

24     wrong.  We waited all day for the session to finish.  In our journalists'

25     or cameraman's jargon, there was a story that the situation was tense and

Page 30583

 1     then we waited until the end.  We didn't have the opportunity to enter

 2     the actual hall during the session itself.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And was that on the 16th of February or was that on

 4     the 14th of April?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of April.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But have you not noticed earlier when you signed

 7     this statement that you said something about what happened on the 16th of

 8     February, and now there is something totally different that replaces what

 9     was in the original text?  Didn't you notice that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was some other events.  It

11     was snowing that day.  Usually it doesn't snow in April in our area, so I

12     kind of mixed those things up.  Perhaps I wasn't completely focused and

13     so on.  But, in my opinion, it doesn't change the situation much.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the change is that in one version of the

15     statement you tell us what happened on the 16th of February, an argument

16     between Karadzic and Mladic, and that now you tell us that something

17     happened on the 14th of April in which Mr. Mladic, at least, was not

18     videotaped on what he participated.

19             That's -- these are two entirely different things.  Do you have

20     any explanation as to why the -- did you tell the Defence about the 16th

21     of February?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was convinced -- it's just the

23     fact that I wasn't focused on the 16th.  As I said, every day I

24     videotaped some event or other, so it was my error that it was the

25     16th of February.  On that day I didn't tape Mr. Mladic.  He just walked

Page 30584

 1     by us quite quickly.  He was walking fast.  He was -- seemed to be quite

 2     angry, and that's how it was.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I think that I will

 5     finish quite quickly.

 6        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 22 did you not indicate to me that after the

 7     word "as a journalist," it should state:  "as a journalist and

 8     cameraman"?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let's look at paragraph 36.

12        Q.   Did you not tell me that in order to clarify and correct matters,

13     the text needed to be changed so that it reads the following:

14             "At the beginning of the war, on the 27th of May, 1992, my

15     neighbour set off to transport some goods from the village of Racic near

16     Bihac to Banja Luka and to bring food back from Banja Luka, joining a

17     column of military vehicles.  They were intercepted in the village of

18     Pudin Han near Kljuc and six of them were killed."

19             Would that be more correct and a more precise reflection of your

20     statement?

21        A.   Yes, it would be more correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And I will finish with paragraph 50.  It's

23     paragraph 50, not 350.  Thank you.

24             Did you not ask that in paragraph 50 here instead of the words

25     "at the end," it should state:  "in early August 1995."

Page 30585

 1        A.   Correct, it should state the 5th of August, 1995.

 2        Q.   And now, Mr. Zoric, after making all these corrections, would you

 3     give the same answers now to the questions as you gave then after you

 4     have now given the solemn oath and would this statement be consistent

 5     with your best recollection of the events as you recall them?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness, and

 8     speak into the microphone.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, could you please repeat what you said for the transcript

11     as His Honour indicated that your answer was not recorded in the

12     transcript.  Would you, today, after making these corrections, give

13     identical answers to the questions that were put to you then and would

14     that, after you have given the solemn oath in this courtroom, be a

15     reflection according to your best memory of what you were talking about?

16        A.   It would be exactly like this.  With all of these corrections

17     that we have made, I would repeat the same answers now.

18        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I kindly ask to

20     tender the witness's statement, 65 ter number 1D01711.  That is the

21     statement of Witness Milorad Zoric.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 1D01711 receives exhibit number

24     D877, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D877 is admitted into evidence.  We're at the time

Page 30586

 1     for -- to adjourn, Mr. Stojanovic.  May I take it that on Monday you'll

 2     finish in some 15 minutes?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, as announced,

 4     I will do, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zoric, we'll adjourn for the day.  We resume on

 6     Monday, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom.  Before you leave

 7     this courtroom, I want to instruct you that you should not speak with

 8     anyone or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

 9     testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today - not much yet,

10     although the statement is now in evidence - or whether that is evidence

11     still to be given on Monday.

12             If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear to me.  It's clear to

14     me.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, just to clarify, I know that we had a

16     videolink organised for Monday, so I wonder if we would start with that?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And for how much time was that one scheduled?

18             MR. JEREMY:  I think the cross estimate is two hours.  So that

19     would take most of the -- could I just have a look at the -- yes, one

20     second, please.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Yeah, it's half an hour direct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Half an hour.  Half an hour, two hours ...

23             Yes, I have to correct myself, being assisted by Mr. Jeremy, that

24     we'd like to see you later on Monday morning, and I can't even guarantee

25     to you, although I would very much urge the parties to take care that we

Page 30587

 1     do not go beyond the time estimates, but it will certainly be later that

 2     morning that we'd like to further hear your evidence.

 3             That being clear as well, you may again follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear to me.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn, and we'll resume Monday, the 26th of

 7     January, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of

10                           January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.