1 Tuesday, 27 January 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There were two items still on our list where the Defence would
12 have to inform the Chamber, which was impossible yesterday, that is,
13 about the scheduling of the remainder of the case and report on expert
14 witnesses. Meanwhile, the Chamber has received some information. The
15 first one is that the Defence will -- has reviewed the witness list and
16 that you have decided not to call 30 witnesses. And then it says the
17 time saved for not calling these witnesses will be reallocated to
18 remaining witnesses. I do understand that that is the way in which you
19 would like to use your time. The Chamber will further consider this. We
20 do not have yet the names of the witnesses, which ones are -- do you have
21 the list of 30, Mr. Lukic?
22 MR. LUKIC: It can be provided to Your Honours during the day. I
23 don't have it with me, but I know that on Sunday we discussed and we
24 specifically marked whom we are not going to call.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have a final list of that, of course,
1 the Chamber would appreciate to know which ones are stricken because we
2 are, of course, working on the basis of our witness list and our 65 ter
4 That is one issue. Again, about how to use the time, we might
5 need to analyse a bit more in detail what happened until now in terms of
6 time, not the ultimate number of hours used but also how they were used,
7 but we'll further analyse that before we -- we express ourselves on which
8 we would expect the Defence to do.
9 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, as you know, we do not have that
10 many 92 ter witnesses left, so in the future we will be using time much
11 more than we did until now, since we have to lead some witnesses
12 viva voce and we will spend much more time with each witness in future.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at your -- at time estimates and
14 which witnesses will be stricken, and then we'll look at the whole of it
15 and then we'll give further guidance or even perhaps further instructions
16 to the Defence.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are there no 92 bis?
18 MR. LUKIC: There will be some 92 bis witnesses, but I don't
19 think more than 10, I think, 15.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The number is quite limited from what I remember
21 from your original list.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But, again, we'd like to hear from you further
24 details about witnesses you have taken out and could you please do that
25 in writing rather than to read long lists of names in court.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we also received - and there was a deadline for
3 that as well - some information about expert witnesses.
4 Well, it's only for three expert witnesses that you announce in
5 more detail what you expect will happen, that is, that the reports will
6 be there the first two weeks of February. All the rest is rather vague,
7 what you hope, and you're going to update. Well, that doesn't give
8 really the information, I think, we were seeking in sufficient detail.
9 So therefore, we received it only yesterday evening, late, we have not
10 discussed it yet. But if there's anything can you add to what is found
11 in that e-mail which says that demographer Svetlana Radovanovic, military
12 expert Mitar Kovac, and demolition of cultural sites expert
13 Dragic Gojkovic were -- are expected to have the reports ready and for
14 you to be filed in the first two weeks in February. And that for the two
15 ballistic experts, that they are being prepared and that you hopefully
16 soon will be in a position to know when their 94 bis admission will be
17 expected to be filed. And finally, the radio communications expert and
18 history expert and forensic pathologist, that you asked them for an
19 update. Of course, the Chamber asked you for an update rather than to
20 hear from you that you passed on this request. I just summarised what we
21 found in the e-mail exchange so that this -- so that it is on the record.
22 The Chamber certainly will insist on receiving rather soon far
23 more information.
24 MR. LUKIC: I thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And we may set a deadline for that. We'll consider
1 that once we have discussed your e-mail.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I move on to another item on my agenda, which
4 is the Defence Rule 92 ter motion for Milan Tutoric.
5 On the 19th of November, the -- of last year, the Defence filed a
6 motion to have the evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric be admitted pursuant
7 to Rule 92 ter. On the 3rd of December, the Prosecution filed its
8 response objecting to the admission of the evidence on the ground that,
9 inter alia, the written statement: 1, contains inadmissible opinion
10 evidence; and, 2, lacks relevance and fails to meet the minimum threshold
11 of reliability.
12 The Prosecution further objects to the introduction of an expert
13 opinion from this witness who is presented by the Defence as a witness of
14 fact. On 18th of December, the Chamber expressed a desire for the
15 Defence to file an additional submission addressing whether it would be
16 more appropriate for the Defence to introduce this witness as an expert
17 witness. The Chamber set a deadline of the 12th of January of this year
18 for this submission. As of today's date, the Defence has not filed or
19 presented an additional submission, and under these circumstances the
20 Chamber denies, without prejudice, the Defence motion pursuant to
21 Rule 92 ter to admit the written testimony of Milan Tutoric.
22 Although I have a few more items on my agenda, we would --
23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I just complained to
24 Registry this morning that it was very hard for us to track all the
25 deadlines and the decisions, and we are -- as you would notice lately, we
1 missed several deadlines and it was the reason why, because we cannot
2 track all the decisions. So I would kindly ask you to give us with
3 Milan Tutoric more time. I was of an opinion that even that motion is
4 filed to have him as an expert witness, so I don't know what happened.
5 And --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll consider that --
7 MR. LUKIC: We have to regroup after this break because we just
8 gathered here.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll ...
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems, Mr. Lukic, is that the
12 interlocutory decision has been delivered a minute ago by me, and we
13 can't just immediately undo that. If anything was filed, we'll see it,
14 but we'll consider the whole situation, and that we said "without
15 prejudice," which is part of our decision, means that you have an
16 opportunity with new arguments to re-open the debate.
17 We'll see what comes. But granting additional time after we've
18 delivered our decision is not something that is easily done. If you
19 would have asked us to reconsider it, then we would still need reasons
20 for that. But if the decision is given without prejudice, then, of
21 course, you don't even -- I would say if you have good arguments, you can
22 re-introduce the matter, and there's no reason for us to reconsider the
23 decision because you can introduce the matter again --
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- on better grounds. Finally, if you have
1 difficulties in tracking deadlines, there is a very simple solution for
2 that; that is, to organise yourself, make a spreadsheet, and everyone who
3 hears of a deadline in court, counsel, writes it down. It will be
4 imported in the spreadsheet immediately after which can you sort on date,
5 on names, on kind of -- it's really not that complex. It makes the
6 Chamber fear that the deadlines we set were not accurately recorded
7 within your own system, which is worrying.
8 I think that for the witness, Mr. Zoric, you still have some time
9 left, I think some 15 minutes, for examination-in-chief. Are you ready
10 to continue, Mr. Stojanovic?
11 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we can briefly deal with one matter. That
14 is a matter remaining with the testimony of Milos Skrba.
15 During the testimony of Witness Skrba in June 2014, the Chamber
16 asked -- I'll stop because otherwise the witness would have to wait too
17 long. I'll re-visit the scale of maps issue soon.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Zoric.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue to hear your evidence, but before we
22 do so, I'd like to remind that you that you're still bound by the solemn
23 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
24 Mr. Stojanovic will now continue.
25 Could you perhaps go a little bit further away from the
1 microphone. Yes.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
3 WITNESS: MILORAD ZORIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zoric.
7 A. Good morning.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
9 With your leave, I would like to read a brief summary of this witness's
10 statement. I believe that's where we left off with the questioning of
11 this witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milorad Zoric is a
14 defectologist by training, and until the war, he worked as an educator in
15 Bihac. That's where he was when the war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He
16 testifies about the deterioration of inter-ethnic relations, the arming
17 of Muslims in Bihac, and attacks on JNA barracks in Bihac.
18 He was forced to leave the town on 25 May 1992, and immediately
19 after his leaving, his apartment was broken into by six armed persons.
20 After leaving town, he joined the VRS which took him in, fed him, and
21 gave him clothing after which he was assigned to the 15th Bihac Light
22 Infantry Brigade. One month later, he was transferred to the press
23 centre of the 2nd Krajina Corps. He stayed there until the end of the
24 war, working as a war cameraman, doing jobs for the corps, for the
25 Serbian TV, and the Reuters agency.
1 Further on in his statement, he says that without encountering
2 any problems or restrictions, he followed and filmed a large number of
3 important events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, including visits by
4 General McKenzie, Mr. Clark, General Morillon, Mr. Akashi and others. He
5 followed and filmed also assembly meetings and toured front lines and the
6 sites of numerous battles. He made about 500 exclusive reports that were
7 sent by -- to Reuters and picked up by other world agencies.
8 He says that he noticed that news from Republika Srpska were
9 unable to breakthrough the media blockade that had been imposed on
10 Republika Srpska. The witness personally filmed a large number of
11 locations and victims of Serb nationality who were visibly mutilated at
12 exchanges and territories that were burnt down, causing rage and desire
13 for vengeance on the Serbian side. He speaks about a large number of
14 encounters with General Mladic during the war and the interviews that he
15 had with him. He describes in detail the positions held by
16 General Mladic on the war, the objectives of the war, honouring of the
17 enemy, asking this reporter to publish only the truth.
18 That is all.
19 With your leave, I would like to put only three questions to this
20 witness to clarify his statement.
21 Could we call up in e-court, please, a document which is now
22 D877, paragraph 14, and that is the statement of this witness.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zoric, in a minute you will see the text of
24 your statement. Please focus on paragraph 14 where you mentioned the
25 fact that on 24 May 1992, a day before you left Bihac, you went to see a
1 friend at the assembly building where she worked that evening.
2 Could you please tell the Court why you emphasised this, this
3 meeting you had that evening in the building of the assembly of the
4 municipality of Bihac?
5 A. I can confirm that. That friend is a lady with whom I lived in a
6 common-law marriage. She worked in the municipality of Bihac, and at
7 that time all enterprises and businesses were organising night-time duty
8 service. So she asked me to visit her at work that evening. The time --
9 the town was calm and peaceful. And when I got there, she was waiting
10 for me. A shoot-out started, a skirmish. I can't say exactly from where
11 the shooting was coming, but I believe all the sides were -- both sides
12 were shooting. From the centre, you can't really see where the shooting
13 is coming from. Panic broke out. Some of the clerks who were former
14 schoolmates of mine with whom I had grown up and had no discrimination
15 whatsoever against them were starting to shout at me: Look what your
16 people are doing to us, et cetera et cetera.
17 I left quickly and went to the apartment of my sister at the
18 other end of town. My sister was married to a Muslim, and I felt sort of
19 safer with them.
20 Q. Is that the reason why you decided to leave Bihac and your home?
21 A. Well, it was very hard in Bihac during those last days,
22 especially when you leave your house. People were shouting at you: We
23 should chase you out; you should be killed. I wasn't used to hearing
24 such threats. I'm a peaceful man by nature. I had never thought that
25 this time would come for us to part ways. I decided to leave town with
1 my lady friend. She decided to leave the town and her family behind. On
2 25 May, we got into the car and just left.
3 If you want me, I can tell you the details of that departure.
4 Q. No, that's not necessary. Let's look at paragraph 26 of your
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's D877 for the record.
7 Q. In paragraph 26, you talk about how impossible it was to break
8 through the media blockade in Republika Srpska. Could you please tell
9 the Court why you mentioned that your statement, why you believed that.
10 A. Well, once the war had started, when both sides took up military
11 positions, one man came from the United States, a Serb immigrant to the
12 United States, he brought some aid for our fighters, and he asked me to
13 make a compilation of all the recordings, all the films I had made. So I
14 gathered whatever I could from other TV stations and films that I made
15 myself. He said - and he lived in New Jersey - I'll try to take it to
16 the United States. And later he found me and said: Not a single TV
17 station wants to broadcast this, no matter how much money I offered.
18 So there was a media blockade. The first news from our side
19 started to come out when the Reuters agency established themselves in
20 Republika Srpska. They published and broadcast quite correct reporting
21 about our side. That was in 1994 and later. From that time on, it was
22 easier to breathe.
23 Q. Paragraph 50 of your statement, D877. Mr. Zoric, just for
24 clarification, tell the Court about this last interview you had with
25 General Ratko Mladic. Where did it take place? Where did you speak with
1 General Mladic?
2 A. I believe that is indeed the last interview he gave. It was in
3 the beginning of August at the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps at
4 Ostrelj, that's between Drvar and Bosanski Petrovac.
5 Q. Mr. Zoric, thank you very much for answering our questions on
6 behalf of the Defence team of General Mladic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I just put one question for clarification.
9 You just said it was in the beginning of August, but in your
10 statement it says at the end of August 1995. Which is true?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we amended this statement.
12 It was the beginning of August. Together with the lawyer, I --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, during the
14 proofing we corrected this. And thank you for your attention.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that clarification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.
17 You find him to your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.
18 Mr. Jeremy.
19 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zoric.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Now I'd like to just discuss briefly your -- the units that were
24 in and your commanding officers.
25 Now, in your statement we read that after your mobilisation on
1 the 9th of May, 1992, you were assigned to the 15th Bihac Light Infantry
2 Brigade. Now, at this time, your brigade commander was Sveto Mrdja; is
3 that correct?
4 A. At that time, it was Colonel Matic. Sveto Mrdja came later,
5 after Matic.
6 Q. Do you know when that change in command took place?
7 A. I don't know. I wasn't interested. But in practice, soldiers do
8 know when such changes take place.
9 Q. Now we also read in your statement that in June 1992, you were
10 transferred to the press centre of the 2nd Krajina Corps. Now at this
11 time, the 2nd Krajina Corps commander was Major-General Grujo Boric;
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And he was later succeeded in November 1994 by Major-General
15 Radivoje Tomanic. Is that also correct?
16 A. Tomanic, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you remained a member of the 2nd Krajina press
18 corps throughout the war from June 1992 onwards; correct?
19 A. In the 2nd Corps from June onwards, and in the VRS from
20 9 May 1992 to 31st March 1996.
21 Q. And within the 2nd Corps from June onwards, you were a member of
22 the 2nd Krajina Corps press centre until the end of the war; is that
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Now, in paragraph 22 of your statement, you refer to yourself as
1 a journalist of Reuters. Now I understand by that, that you mean that as
2 a member of the 2nd Krajina press centre you would occasionally supply
3 material to Reuters; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's right. With the permission of my superiors.
5 Sometimes I didn't even ask for permission. I did whatever I thought was
6 needed, whatever I thought was right. Nobody ever had any quarrel with
7 it. Everybody even wanted to see it and they wanted the truth about
8 their work to spread.
9 As for Reuters, a team of the Reuters agency came from Belgrade
10 and spent a month with us. There was a large operation going on at that
11 time, the state of war had been declared, and they had received
12 permission from our top commander, from General Mladic and
13 General Milovanovic, to be there, and they were with me at the command of
14 the 2nd Krajina Corps, without any problem whatsoever. And in order to
15 leave, they engaged me because I was already involved in that work. They
16 hired me to work for them, and I did. But on one condition: That my
17 recordings and my stories go first to our television, the television of
18 Republika Srpska which was then called Banja Luka TV; and after these
19 recordings were broadcast on our TV, they were sent by link to Belgrade.
20 So that big TV was never competing with small TVs.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir, that's an answer to my question.
22 Now I'd like to move to a different topic, and that is relating
23 to organisation and arming in Bihac during 1991 and 1992. Now in
24 paragraphs 2 to 6 of your statement, you refer to the organising and
25 arming of Muslims in Bihac during 1991 and 1992.
1 Now, can we agree that members of the Serb population in Bihac
2 were also organising and arming during 1991 and 1992?
3 A. As for arming, I was in Bihac. I mean, when people felt that
4 something unpleasant would happen -- we didn't believe it would actually
5 be a war. We thought it would not last very long. I often returned to
6 the press centre of the air force in Bihac, that is, at the JNA centre.
7 I felt safer there with the army. The JNA was still there then. It was
8 a guarantor for the constitution and Yugoslavia still existed. I
9 observed all of that, of course, and then I stood by them and --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question. The question
11 is whether you agree that Serbs were arming as well in Bihac.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but probably yes,
13 both. I mean, I know about these because some officers told me that they
14 had problems with Muslims who want to attack the barracks, to seize
15 weapons, and also there was a black market.
16 MR. JEREMY:
17 Q. All right, sir. I'd like to show you a document in connection
18 with your answer and maybe we can get a little bit more clarity by
19 looking at that document.
20 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31888 on our screens.
21 Q. Now, sir, on the screen before you is a report sent from the
22 public security station in Bihac to the CSB in Banja Luka and we can see
23 that it's dated the 13th of October, 1993. Now, as we see from the cover
24 page, it contains information on employees of the Bihac SJB who
25 participated in preparing and organising the Serbian people before the
1 war broke out. And I'd just like to briefly refer your attention to a
2 few parts of this document and then I'll have a couple of questions on
4 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 2, please, in each language.
5 Q. So, sir, referring your attention to the first sentence of the
6 first paragraph, we read that:
7 "When the war broke out in the territory of Croatia or, to be
8 more precise, in Plitvice on 1 April 1991, the Serbian people in the
9 territory of Bihac municipality instinctively felt the threat posed by
10 the Ustasha and started organising themselves."
11 If we go to the second paragraph and again looking at the first
12 sentence we read:
13 "It was necessary to act in strict secrecy and illegally since
14 many Serbs had been taken in by various political parties and lived in
15 the belief that there would be no war and that the rest of the country
16 would unite in a 'new' Yugoslavia."
17 Looking at the third paragraph, sir, we read in the first
19 "When the first weapons arrived in the Bihac area, they were
20 unpacked and distributed in great secrecy to civilian protection units
21 which had organised themselves illegally in the Serbian villages in Bihac
23 And that paragraph goes on to discuss, a few sentences down,
24 arming during the summer of 1991 and also explains that this took place
25 away from the eyes of the public and even individual Serbs.
1 I'd just like to refer you to one other part of this document.
2 MR. JEREMY: Can we go to page 3 in the English, please, and
3 page 5 in the B/C/S. And in the English, it's the penultimate paragraph,
4 beginning: "The month of April 1992 ..." And in the B/C/S, it's halfway
5 down the page.
6 Q. So we read:
7 "The month of April 1992 was used to provide the Serbs with
8 additional arms and the special role of the police officers was to
9 provide transport and personally transport weapons. All the approaches
10 to the town were controlled by Muslim police officers, which made the
11 Serbs more afraid. An attempt was made to strike back at the Muslims by
12 setting up check-points manned by Serbian police officers."
13 So, Mr. Zoric, is it your position that you were not aware of the
14 organising and arming of Serbian villages in the Bihac municipality
15 during the course of 1991 and 1992, as we see described in some detail in
16 this document?
17 A. I took an oath here that I would speak the truth. This document
18 doesn't mean a thing to me. I worked as a teacher in a school in Bihac.
19 I had no idea whatsoever about any of this because I never liked weapons
20 or anything like that. The only thing that I wanted to do was to get my
21 hands on a camera so that I wouldn't have to shoot because I hate that
22 from the bottom of my heart. This is the first time I see this. I know
23 some of the people from this list. I know that they worked somewhere out
24 there, but that that was done, no, I wasn't in these circles. I spent my
25 free time in taverns, at home, in school --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question was whether you were
2 not aware. Where you spent your time, whether you know the people in the
3 document, all that was not asked, so I do understand --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. JEREMY:
9 Q. Sir, from your answer, then, I think you'll -- well, do you allow
10 for the possibility that this organising and arming was going on but you
11 simply were not aware of it?
12 A. I allow for that possibility.
13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document as a
14 Prosecution exhibit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31888 receives Exhibit Number P7065,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
19 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to move to a different topic and that's the
21 topic of population movement.
22 Now, in paragraph 12 of your statement, you refer to Serbs
23 self-organising in Serb villages around Bihac. And you state that the
24 population there relocated in an unorganised and uncontrolled manner.
25 Now I'd like to focus on another municipality bordering the Una river,
1 namely, Bosanska Krupa, which you also discuss in your statement.
2 Now, establishing a border on the Una river was one of the
3 strategic objectives or goals of the Bosnian Serb and political
4 leadership; correct?
5 A. Establishment of the border? I don't know. I was interested in
6 how far I could go to take pictures. I don't know anything else. I
7 wasn't interested in politics. I was just interested in recording what I
8 could report. As for borders, believe me, I had no idea whatsoever.
9 Q. Okay. Now, this Chamber has received evidence that six strategic
10 goals or objectives were presented by Radovan Karadzic to delegates at
11 the 16th Assembly in Sanski Most on the 12th of May, 1992. Now, was this
12 one of the assembly sessions that you were there recording?
13 A. I recorded that assembly. We cameramen were allowed to go in,
14 take pictures, see who was there, and finally to wait for the end to see
15 if somebody wanted to give statements to us. Only General Ninkovic
16 wanted to. We stopped General Mladic as well. He was visibly angry. He
17 said: I'm not saying anything. Ask the politicians, they know
19 Then General Ninkovic made a statement. I can't remember it.
20 There's no need for me to remember it, actually. There's a recording of
21 that, so it's there.
22 Q. Well, sir, at this session - and the Trial Chamber has received
23 this evidence - a representative of Bosanska Krupa declared that on the
24 right bank of the Una, there were no more Muslims in the Serbian
25 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. And he went on to state that it was
1 unlikely that those Muslims would have a place to return to now that
2 President Karadzic had told the assembly the happy news that the right
3 bank of the Una is the border of the Serbian Republic of
5 Do you recall that particular speech?
6 A. I've already told you, I was not present during the assembly
7 meeting. We were waiting outside, waiting for it to finish. This is the
8 first time I hear of this. I have no idea about this.
9 Q. Now -- but you were in Bosanska Krupa, however, and, in fact, you
10 recorded in the SDA premises there; correct?
11 A. SDS premises, no. I just took pictures of the positions of
12 combatants along the lines.
13 Q. Sir, my question --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, yes, you're recorded as having asked for
15 SDA premises. I don't know why the responded as he did.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I know what you mean. I
17 misheard what you said. SDS premises, yes. I got there with my
18 colleagues from the Krupa radio and then they showed us what they had
19 seized from Muslims. We found knives there that they called Serb
20 cutters. Then lists of persons who were supposed to be arrested or
21 killed or whatever. I cannot say. I don't know. And then other small
22 things, equipment for ...
23 MR. JEREMY:
24 Q. Sir, so just to confirm, you were present at the SDA premises
25 making these recordings and -- that you've just referred to.
1 A. I assumed that it was the SDA before that. I was never on the
2 Muslim side once the war started. I couldn't go. Didn't dare to.
3 Q. What date was this that you -- that you made this film?
4 A. It was sometime in the summer 1992. Now was it June or something
5 like that ... I don't remember the date. After all, it's been more than
6 20 years now.
7 Q. Sir, this -- this Chamber has received evidence that on the
8 22nd of May, 1992, there was an order from the president of the
9 War Presidency in the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa to evacuate
10 the remaining Muslim population from that municipality. And that's P7385
11 [sic]. Is this evacuation of Muslims something that you witnessed?
12 A. The 22nd of May, 1992? I was in Bihac. I mean, I didn't go
13 anywhere. Actually, I didn't even believe that there was conflict in
14 Krupa. I don't know. I wasn't recording anything then either.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. JEREMY: Now, Your Honours, I'm going to move to another
17 document in connection with this. I wonder if I should do that now
18 or ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how much time you would need for it.
20 MR. JEREMY: Probably more than three minutes, but not more than
21 five or six.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll just go over the 10.30 moment. Please
23 start already.
24 MR. JEREMY: Okay.
25 Q. Now, sir, this decision by the Assembly of the Serbian Republic
1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina that I referred to, that the Una river is an
2 indisputable border of Republika Srpska, that was communicated to
3 soldiers of the 2nd Krajina Corps, wasn't it?
4 A. I don't know. I don't think so.
5 Q. Okay. Let's just take a look at a document in connection with
6 that, that you might be able to help us with.
7 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31864.
8 Q. Now, sir, on your screen you is a war bulletin by the VRS,
9 2nd Krajina Corps, and it's dated August 1992. Is that a document that
10 you recognise?
11 A. We did issue a war bulletin, but I don't remember this particular
12 issue or something. We received communication from all brigades of the
13 corps and then we just put it all together, compiled it, edited it.
14 Actually, I didn't do any of that. It was the journalists who did.
15 MR. JEREMY: Can we go to page 25 in the English, please, and
16 15 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. And, sir, we see at the bottom of the page that the document is
18 being -- or we see a reference to the 2nd Krajina Corps Information
19 Service. Now, I take from -- from that it was the 2nd Krajina Corps
20 Information Service responsible for the preparation of this document,
22 A. That's right.
23 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 22 in the English and
24 13 in the B/C/S. And in the B/C/S I'd like to focus on the text on the
25 right-hand side of the page in -- in the middle, referring to the
1 SRBiH Assembly.
2 Q. So, sir, just very quickly, we see a reference to the
3 SRBiH Assembly and we read that the SRBiH has unanimously reached a
4 decision on disputable and indisputable borders of its country, and we
5 see that indisputable borders are -- and we see a reference there to the
6 Una river.
7 Now, sir, this is an example of the 2nd Krajina Corps informing
8 its soldiers about the war aims of the Serbian Republic of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
10 A. Well, let me tell you, maybe, but I don't remember that. I
11 wasn't really interested. I had my own work and that's what I did. As
12 for writing, I wasn't really very interested in that. Wasn't interested
13 in politics either.
14 Q. That's understood.
15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would like to tender an excerpt of
16 this document. What I'll suggest is that I create an excerpt of the
17 first page, the last page that we looked at, and this page.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we should reserve a number for it.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The excerpt receives number P7066, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And would you let us know as soon as you've uploaded
21 the excerpt --
22 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. I'll do that this afternoon.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And would there be any objection, Mr. Stojanovic?
24 No objection. Therefore, the -- P7066 is admitted into evidence.
25 Although immediately I add to this, that instruction is given to
1 Madam Registrar to upload the excerpt -- to replace the text presently in
2 e-court by the excerpt still to be uploaded, and would you then provide
3 the number once you have uploaded it.
4 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we take a break.
6 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.
7 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honour, for planning purposes, I expect to
8 conclude within five to ten minutes after the break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to
13 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the
17 Mr. Lukic, as far as the Chamber is aware, no motion was filed
18 this morning in relation to Witness Tutoric.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zoric, Mr. Jeremy will now continue his
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Zoric, I'd like to conclude today by discussing Bihac
25 and the Bihac safe area.
1 Now, you discuss Bihac in your statement and you refer to your
2 leaving Bihac in May 1992. Now, even at that time there was a shortage
3 of food and medicine in Bihac; correct?
4 A. Correct, exactly. Shops were empty.
5 Q. Now, the next year, in 1993, in May, the United Nations Security
6 Council declared Bihac a safe area; correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Now, in your statement, paragraphs 38 through to 45, you make a
9 series of observations in respect to General Mladic. You mention that he
10 would say the civilian population and especially the weak should be
11 protected, and you conclude the section by saying that he was especially
12 sensitive to old people and children.
13 Now, in respect to Bihac, this Chamber has received evidence that
14 during the course of 1994 and 1995, General Mladic was personally warned
15 by UNPROFOR Generals Cot, de Lapresle, and Smith to stop large-scale
16 attacks on the Bihac safe area. And that's P5186, P5193, and P792.
17 So were you aware of these attacks against the Bihac safe area in
18 1994 and 1995?
19 A. Well, I had no way of knowing. I wasn't planning attacks or
20 organising anything. I just wanted to have footage that was as
21 attractive as possible and I wanted to record the actual situation as it
22 was. I've already told you, I don't know anything about politics and I
23 was not part of those circles.
24 Q. Sir, my question doesn't relate to politics. My question relates
25 to military actions against the safe area of Bihac in 1994 and 1995 and
1 whether you were aware of those.
2 A. I knew partly that Bihac was a safe area but I also have some
3 convincing footage. I mean, I took pictures of weapons, cannons, barrels
4 that are lowered, cows that are grazing around these cannons, so
5 obviously they were not operating for a while. I have all of that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you were aware of
7 attacks, not on whether you drew any conclusions on the basis of cows
8 grazing there, but whether you knew anything about the attacks. If not,
9 please say no; if you do have, please tell us what --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. I didn't know
11 anything about that, no.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Sir, you also say in your statement that you recorded meetings
15 between General Mladic and UNPROFOR officials and you say that
16 General Mladic would request that these meetings be videotaped. That's
17 paragraph 20.
18 Now, this Chamber has received evidence that at one such meeting
19 between General Mladic and UNPROFOR General Rupert Smith in Vlasenica on
20 7th of March, 1995, when General Mladic was warned that an attack on an
21 UN safe area would risk a response by NATO, he responded with a tirade of
22 threats of counteraction to Mr. Smith -- to General Smith. Now, did you
23 ever record General Mladic threatening UNPROFOR officials in this way?
24 A. My area of movement was the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, and I
25 never recorded anything like that.
1 Q. All right, sir. Thank you for answering my questions.
2 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I've got no further questions. Thank
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Honours.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zoric, the last set of questions after the
9 break related to the fighting around Bihac, the protected area of Bihac.
10 Now, in the context of paragraph 30 of your statement, would you tell the
11 Court if you filmed and documented the attacks of the Army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 5th Corps against the VRS from protected
14 A. Yes, I did, to the extent I was able to from our side.
15 Q. Would you tell the Court when the attacks from the protected area
16 of Bihac were the most intensive against the positions of the VRS?
17 A. An offensive was launched towards the end of October from the
18 protected area against the Army of Republika Srpska. I don't remember
19 exactly. They moved in to the territory of the VRS very forcefully and
20 very quickly, including Mount Grmec, 25 kilometres deep into our
22 Q. Could you tell us around what time and which area?
23 A. October 1994, as I said. And the first place they took was the
24 Grabez Plateau that had been held by the VRS; my native village Pritoka,
25 I filmed it as it burned including my own house on fire; and then they
1 went further in the territory of Bihac up to Lipa village. And their aim
2 was to take control of the road towards Petrovac.
3 Q. Did you have occasion to see the casualties of that offensive
4 launched from the protected area?
5 A. Yes, in a place called Kulen Vakuf, in Rajnovci, in Hrgari and
6 the surrounding areas, especially in Gornji Vakuf [as interpreted], I
7 came across very ugly things, human corpses, carcasses, houses burning.
8 Q. Let me finish. My colleague tells me that on the record,
9 page 26, line 19, there is a name of a town. Are you talking about
10 Gornji Vakuf or Kulen Vakuf?
11 A. Kulen Vakuf. There are several places in Bosnia called Vakuf but
12 the one I'm talking about, the one closest to Bihac, is called
13 Kulen Vakuf.
14 Q. To conclude, when you were mentioning the names of the commanding
15 officers and members of the 2nd Krajina Corps, do you recall who was the
16 commander of the staff headquarters at the beginning of the war in 1992
17 at the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps?
18 A. I believe it was Colonel Mikan Vaso. He occupied the position of
19 assistant commander.
20 Q. And who was the staff commander?
21 A. Eldar Nikanovic [as interpreted], a native of Tuzla. He came
22 with the army from Sibenik and he's still with the army based in
23 Banja Luka.
24 Q. What is he by ethnicity?
25 A. A Muslim. It's not Nikanovic. It's Kikanovic, with a K.
1 Q. Could you just spell out the name.
2 A. Eldar, E-l-d-a-r, Kikanovic.
3 Q. On the behalf of the Defence team of General Mladic, I thank you
4 very much for answering our questions.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have concluded my examination,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I have a few questions for you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE ORIE: When asked about attacks launched against the Bihac
12 safe area, you answered that you had no way of knowing, that you were not
13 planning the attacks or organising anything, that you just wanted to have
14 footage, and that your only focus was on recording what you saw. You
15 further explained that you were not interested in politics and you were
16 not in those circles. Then it was put to you that the question was about
17 military action, and in answer to that observation, you said:
18 "I knew partly that Bihac was a safe area, but I also have some
19 convincing footage. I mean, I took pictures of weapons," and then you
20 continue about that. And then I said -- asked you whether you were aware
21 of attacks rather than about cows. And then you said:
22 "I didn't know. I didn't know anything about that."
23 And that's what we heard you repeatedly say, that whenever it is
24 about -- whether it's arming, whether it's about attacks which, as it was
25 put to you, was committed by Serbs, you claim to have no interest
1 whatsoever in those matters. And as soon as questions are put to you
2 about military action by the Muslims, you immediately, in great detail,
3 tell us what you know about this.
4 Do you have any explanation as to why you are not interested in
5 any military matters and are only interested in getting footage if it is
6 about Serb operations or actions; whereas, to the contrary, if it comes
7 to Muslims' activities or operations, that you expose great interest and
8 detailed knowledge about everything that happened. Do you have an
9 explanation for that?
10 A. Well, every time they attacked, we were afraid that we would come
11 under attack too. I knew enough about the opposite side to be afraid of
12 their attacks, and my job was to film whatever I could and as much as I
14 JUDGE ORIE: You missed the gist of my question. The gist of my
15 question was why you seemed to have detailed knowledge if it is about
16 action and operations against the Serbs; whereas you claim to have no
17 interest and no knowledge if it is about actions and operations by the
18 Serbs. That was my question, not about whether you were afraid at the
19 time, but how you behaved as a witness in this courtroom.
20 A. Well, I don't know. I was always interested in the enemy and
21 what they would do. The rest did not interest me. I didn't really
22 choose where to go. I just followed the army. Of course, our army
23 opened fire as well. I have recordings of that kind too. It was trench
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Another question is about -- you
1 explained to us there was a blockade from the United States when you had
2 channelled your compilations to the United States. Did you personally
3 deal with those who were invited to broadcast your reports?
4 A. I didn't invite anyone to do anything. I gave my footage to a
5 Serb emigrant to New Jersey, and later on he told me that none of it was
6 broadcast because nobody wanted to.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did he explain to you why that was?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't really explain. I don't
9 know. For me, it was enough when he said: I really can't find a way to
10 have it broadcast, even if I offer them money.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you concluded that this was a blockade,
12 not knowing the reasons why it was refused. Would you agree with me that
13 there may have been -- well, whatever kind of concerns, whether it was
14 sufficiently balanced, sufficiently neutral, sufficiently of quality,
15 that may have caused anyone to not broadcast your compilation. And
16 perhaps I add as a -- yes, sorry.
17 A. I could agree to some extent but, really, I don't know. I tried
18 to send footage that was convincing and good. Now, why they refused it,
19 I really don't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then one last issue.
21 You said after you had left town, six men entered your apartment.
22 That's found in your statement. Do you remember that?
23 A. I remember that statement. It's my neighbour who told me that,
24 the neighbour who lived next door to me and left Bihac later. She said:
25 It is good that you were not there. Six armed men broke into your flat.
1 What they were looking for, I have no clue.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever go back to your flat, your apartment?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go into the apartment, but
4 I did go back to Bihac, and I'm still in touch with my old friends.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
6 Mr. Jeremy, any questions in --
7 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Zoric, this concludes your testimony. I'd
9 like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague. I also
10 thank you for the patience you had to have yesterday when we were
11 unfortunately unable to continue with your testimony. I thank you for
12 having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the
13 parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour. Our next witness is
19 Mr. Karac, Dragan.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then now I'll use the opportunity to briefly
21 deal with the matter I started earlier, which is about the maps.
22 During the testimony of Witness Skrba in June 2014, the Chamber
23 asked the parties to provide the scale of two maps, D526 and P6599, and
24 to identify a number of locations mentioned by the witness on a map.
25 The Chamber hereby puts on the record that the parties agree that
1 the red circles on maps bearing Rule 65 ter number 30976 and 30977
2 indicate the location of Osmice.
3 These two documents, therefore, can be admitted into evidence.
4 Madam Registrar, could you tell us whether you had already
5 reserved a number or whether a number still has to be assigned to these
6 two 65 ter numbers? Well, I've give you time. Just check whether.
7 Meanwhile I continue. The parties have been unable to agree on
8 the location of Gugine Kuce. That's hereby on the record. In relation
9 to P6599, the parties have tentatively agreed that the graphic scale for
10 this map is that one grid equals 2 kilometres.
11 Could the next witness be escorted in the courtroom.
12 The lexical scale is 1 to 50.000. In relation to D526, the
13 Prosecution submits that the lexical scale is 1 to 20.000 but cannot
14 determine on the face of the map the graphic scale. The Defence has not
15 submitted its position. The Chamber invites the parties to file any
16 further agreement related to these matters no later than the end of this
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Karac.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
22 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
23 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: DRAGAN KARAC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Karac. Please be seated.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karac, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
6 You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left. In a minute, he will be standing.
7 And Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic who tries to greet
8 you, which he's supposed not to do.
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please take care that no loud
13 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Karac.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. For the record, please, could you tell us your name slowly.
19 A. Dragan Karac.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, sorry to interrupt for you a second.
21 Mr. Mladic, you should refrain immediately from the kind of
22 communication you're seeking with the public gallery. Therefore, you're
23 invited to not look in that direction. If it happens again, you'll be
24 immediately removed from the courtroom. It may help you if you turn your
25 back to the other direction. No loud speaking either, Mr. Mladic.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karac, have you given a written statement to
4 the Defence team of General Mladic?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we display on the screens
7 1D1664, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the number again, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: The number should be 1D1664.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you see it on the screen before you, Mr. Karac?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's page 1. Do you recognise the signature here?
15 A. Yes, it's my signature.
16 Q. We can take a look at the last page. On the last page, do you
17 see the signature? Do you recognise it?
18 A. Yes, it's my signature.
19 Q. You've had occasion to review this statement. Does it reflect
20 correctly what you've stated?
21 A. Yes. Everything is recorded precisely as I stated it.
22 Q. Are the contents of this statement truthful and accurate, to the
23 best of your knowledge?
24 A. Yes, I've said and described whatever I knew.
25 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you
1 answer the same?
2 A. Yes, I would.
3 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would tender Mr. Karac's statement
4 into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Therefore, Madam Registrar, the
6 number would be ...?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01664 receives Exhibit Number D880,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, with your leave, I would read statement
11 summary of this witness, and we will not have any questions for him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Please proceed, as you
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 Dragan Karac was a JNA reserve officer. He was mobilised in the
16 JNA on the 30th of June, 1991, and joined the 6th Infantry Brigade of
17 Sanski Most.
18 With his unit, he stayed in Jasenovac, Croatia, until 1st April,
19 1992, after which he was transferred to Sanski Most. The unit was
20 stationed in Lusci Palanka. At the time of his transfer from Jasenovac
21 to Sanski Most, he saw trenches in the Muslim villages along the road
22 towards Sanski Most. He found armed Muslim and Serb groups in and around
23 Sanski Most. The role of his brigade was to keep the peace between the
24 opposing sides.
25 The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the
1 elections, so they took over the municipal building by force, using
2 weapons and renegade police forces composed of Muslims and the
3 Green Berets.
4 SDS recaptured the municipal building with the help of the SOS
5 forces. The members of his brigade did not participate in take-over of
6 the municipal building.
7 For the sake of security of the civilian population, JNA and
8 later VRS units had to disarm the Muslim extremists who were forming
9 check-points from which they killed soldiers and policemen.
10 Mr. Karac was transferred to the 17th Kljuc Brigade in late
11 July 1992. He was engaged at the Bihac front in November 1992. He
12 witnessed that after Bihac was declared a safe area, members of the B and
13 H Army often attacked VRS positions from it.
14 Mr. Karac also participated in combat operations when combined
15 Croatian-Muslim forces carried out an attack on Republika Srpska in
16 August 1995.
17 And that would be, Your Honours, the statement summary of
18 Mr. Karac.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Karac, no further questions will you put to you by the
21 Defence. Of course, the Chamber has received your statement, so that
22 will be most likely the basis for further examination, because you'll now
23 be cross-examined by Ms. Edgerton. You find her to your right.
24 Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the Prosecution.
25 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
3 Q. Mr. Karac, good morning.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Is it Karac or Karac?
6 A. It's a ch at the end.
7 Q. Thank you. I don't want to mispronounce your name. That's why.
8 I'd like to begin your cross-examination by getting you to
9 confirm a couple of things about the role and the function of an
10 intelligence officer. All right? And I'm going to do that by showing
11 you an excerpt from a document.
12 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter number 4643. It's an excerpt from the
13 JNA manual on intelligence support to the armed forces. And we can go
14 over in English to page 16 and B/C/S to page 21, and we're looking for
15 paragraph 11 in both languages. Right. Thank you.
16 Q. So, Mr. Karac, this paragraph lists - if you can see it okay -
17 the basic intelligence support tasks in war time. And this is
18 specifically relating to brigade-level intel operations because this is
19 excerpted from the JNA brigade rules. All right? So just have a look at
20 some of those tasks. Like 11a talks about -- it says your tasks included
21 the prompt discovering of the actions and intentions of the enemy in the
22 front, in the temporarily occupied territory, and in his rear.
23 And then if in English we could go over to the next page, and
24 have a look at d, you -- part of your job is to collect intel on the
25 combat capability of your enemy.
1 And then in B/C/S over to the next page. E, their movement. F,
2 fire systems -- pardon me, communications, and a couple ones down is fire
3 systems. K, logistics. And go all the way down to n, data about the
4 population and material resources in enemy territory.
5 Now I know this is it at speed, but this isn't a trick question
6 at all. I just want you to confirm that these were among your basic
7 tasks as an intelligence officer; right?
8 A. Yes. But let me just explain. You said that I was a security
9 officer. That's what you said in your initial remarks. However, at the
10 time, I was assistant commander -- assistant Chief of Staff for
11 intelligence affairs. There's a difference.
12 Q. I think there might have a might misinterpretation because my
13 words specifically spoke about intelligence, and I'm well aware of the
14 divisions between the different branches, so if we could just focus on
16 So can you confirm that these things that we've just listed that
17 you see in paragraph 11 were among your basic tasks as an intel officer?
18 A. Yes, that can be confirmed. Those were the rules of the former
19 Yugoslav People's Army.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And so if we could have that as a Prosecution
21 Exhibit, please, Your Honours, I'd appreciate that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It is a very long document, if I -- isn't it?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Only paragraph 11 on pages 16 and 17 in
24 English, and pages 21 and 22 in B/C/S --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And have you made --
1 MS. EDGERTON: -- please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Have you uploaded an excerpt which covers those
4 MS. EDGERTON: Not yet but we can do it forthwith.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will reserve a number for an excerpt still
6 to be uploaded. Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
7 THE REGISTRAR: P7067, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is reserved and we'll wait for the upload to be
9 reported to the Chamber.
10 Please proceed.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be appreciated if you also could upload
12 the cover page so that we know what it is about.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. So as an intel officer, your job, your core function really, is
17 to ensure intelligence support for your brigade's combat actions; right?
18 A. Yes, my role was to collect intelligence about the enemy of my
19 army. Of my units, I'm sorry.
20 Q. And that involves not only continually monitoring the enemy but
21 also continually assessing the information and continually reporting on
22 it to the people who need to know; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And the people who need to know would be particularly
25 the command personnel, the Commander-in-Chief, or Chief of Staff, the
1 operations units, the operations officer, the security officer, among
2 others. Is that a fair comment?
3 A. For the most part, what I knew, as far as intelligence was
4 concerned, is what I presented to the Chief of Staff and the brigade
6 Q. Thank you. Now, something else I'd like you just to confirm, and
7 it's about the combat record of your unit and for the moment I just want
8 to focus on the 6th Brigade. And I'll show you a document that reports
9 on your unit's combat records so you can follow along with me as I read
10 it. It's P7015 MFI. And it's a paper from Sanski Most called the
11 "Informator." It's an SDS newspaper and it was published on Petrov Dan,
12 Saint Peter's Day, in 1992. P7015.
13 So that's the first page. And if we go over to pages 38 in
14 English and page 25 in your language?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you refresh our memory what day is
16 Saint Peter's Day, so that we also know it, from a calendar point of
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a saint, the Serbs celebrate
19 that saint, and that day is on the 12th of July.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Now, in B/C/S, I think you need to have a look at the third
23 paragraph from the bottom, if I'm not mistaken, on page 25. And when we
24 begin to read, tell me if I --
25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, that's correct. And almost the penultimate
1 paragraph in English.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Karac, referring to the 6th Infantry Brigade --
3 MS. EDGERTON: Could you make the third paragraph from the
4 bottom, please, a bit bigger for Mr. Karac.
5 Q. This says that your brigade took part in the liberation of
6 Bosanska Krupa; the liberation and mopping up of Hambarine, Kozarusa, and
7 Kozarac; creating conditions for the take-over in Kljuc; confiscation of
8 weapons across the municipality; military defeat of the Muslim extremists
9 in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo; involvement in mopping up all areas on the left
10 bank of Una; involvement in mopping up the areas of Sanica, Krasulje,
11 Hrustovo, and Vrhpolje.
12 Now, up until July 1992, that's right, isn't it, that's an
13 accurate record of your brigade's actions?
14 A. As for this information about the activities of the brigade, I
15 know that, but as for the rest, this is the first time I see this SDS
16 bulletin report.
17 Q. But you don't disagree with the accuracy of the passage I've read
18 to you in terms of it being an accurate record of your brigade's combat
19 activities up till that point?
20 A. Yes, the brigade - parts of the brigade, not the entire brigade -
21 took part in disarming paramilitary units of the Muslims in these areas
22 that you mentioned.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, more was read to you. It was specific
24 areas, specific activities. Do you disagree with that more detailed
25 description of the operations the brigade had been involved in?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just confirm this part that
2 has to do with the activities of the brigade, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's all about the brigade.
4 Could a printout be made -- no, we don't have -- could you read
5 it again. Could you read it again, Ms. Edgerton, so -- and take it step
6 by step to see whether the witness has any reason to disagree.
7 MS. EDGERTON: No problem.
8 Q. This document says:
9 "The brigade has participated in the following operations: The
10 liberation of Bosanska Krupa."
11 Is that correct, Mr. Karac?
12 A. That is not correct.
13 Q. Are you saying that your brigade didn't take part in the
14 liberation of Bosanska Krupa?
15 A. Yes, my brigade did not take part in the liberation of
16 Bosanska Krupa. That was this so-called take-over of power.
17 Q. Right. We'll come back to that. I'll continue:
18 "The liberation and cleansing of Hambarine, Kozarusa and
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Edgerton, it says in the English translation
21 "mopping up" instead of --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- "cleansing."
24 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me. Yes, "the liberation and mopping up,"
25 yes, correct. I apologise, Your Honour.
1 Q. Can you confirm that your brigade took part in the liberation and
2 mopping up of Hambarine, Kozarusa, and Kozarac?
3 A. I know of Hambarine, and I think it was Kozarac, near Prijedor.
4 Q. And I assume you take no issue, because you spoke about it in
5 your written evidence, that your brigade took part in the creation of
6 conditions for the take-over in Kljuc?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And, again, since you spoke of it in your written evidence, you
9 can confirm that your brigade took part in the military defeat of Muslim
10 extremists in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo?
11 A. Yes, the brigade took part in the fighting -- actually, parts of
12 the 6th Brigade took part in the battles for Hrustovo and Vrhpolje, in
13 the disarming of Muslim extremists.
14 Q. The next sentence reads:
15 "Involving [sic] in mopping up all the areas on the left bank of
16 the Una."
18 A. I don't know about that. I am not aware of that.
19 Q. "Involvement in mopping up areas of Sanica, Krasulje, Hrustovo,
20 and Vrhpolje."
22 A. Yes, it took part in these operations.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honour, I realise -- I see that this
25 document, P7015, is marked for identification and I don't believe that
1 this page that I've read this excerpt from is included in that exhibit
2 yet. I wonder if it can be added, and then we'll address Your Honours
3 eventually more fully on the complete number of pages we might want to
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do not know whether under that number we have
6 at this moment have an extract or if it's the whole document. Because if
7 it is the whole document, then of course this is part of it as well. But
8 I do understand that you want to make a further selection and that the
9 Defence will be in a position to add whatever they think we would need
10 for contextualising the portions selected by the Prosecution.
11 Therefore, we'll -- it remains to be MFI'd and this then will be
12 part of your selection.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Perfect. Thank you.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Karac, you mentioned you actually took issue with the
16 assertion in this document that your brigade had participated in the
17 liberation of Bosanska Krupa. I just want to take this document away and
18 show you another one, then, P3916 [Realtime transcript read in error
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say the number again, please.
21 MS. EDGERTON: P3916.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. EDGERTON: It's a document dated --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please say it again.
25 MS. EDGERTON: P3916.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Please say it again.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- apparently there is a -- I don't know
3 what explains it but apparently there's some problem in having "3916" on
4 the record.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the record now, page 43, line 25, we have
7 it correctly there.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. So, Mr. Karac, you've had a chance to have a look at this
11 document. Just go down to the very last paragraph of this document which
12 is dated 11 May 1992 and it's a response to a request and it's directed
13 to the commander of your brigade. So if your brigade, as you say, didn't
14 take part in the liberation of Bosanska Krupa, what's General Talic doing
15 taking this opportunity to pay tribute to and congratulate all the
16 soldiers of your brigade, and the commander personally, for the
17 successfully completed task of liberating the town of Bosanska Krupa?
18 A. I've already told you that the brigade participated in this
19 so-called take-over of power. That is probably considered to be
20 liberation. I'm not aware of anything else but that.
21 Now, I mean, whether there was something else as well, I cannot
22 confirm that for you. Indeed, this is the first time I'm seeing this
24 Q. Thank you. We'll move on. Just a couple of other details I want
25 to get you to confirm or to maybe augment a little bit your written
2 You talk about your brigade's arrival in Sanski Most in
3 April 1992. Can you confirm you arrived there with about a thousand men
4 in the brigade?
5 A. I cannot confirm that for you. I don't think that there were a
6 thousand men in the brigade then when returning from Jasenovac.
7 Q. Well, how many do you think there were?
8 A. I know that approximately -- I mean, the number was growing every
9 day, so the information changed. It's possible that there were a
10 thousand. I don't know. I really don't know. I cannot give you an
11 accurate figure.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock.
13 MS. EDGERTON: It's time for the morning break. I apologise for
14 not noticing that, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, we'll keep an eye on the clock.
16 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes when we'll
17 continue. You may follow the usher.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be brought
23 in, two short matters. I think the documents I referred to earlier, that
24 is, 65 ter 30976, no number has been assigned yet.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30976 receives Exhibit Number P7068,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there no objection against it being a
4 P number, admitted into evidence.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Receives Exhibit Number P7069, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P7069 is admitted. Now I'm -- let me just see ...
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Similarly, Your Honours, can I just advise that
11 the excerpts from 65 ter number 4643 have now been uploaded as 4643a.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think that we reserved a number already.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that number was?
15 THE REGISTRAR: P7067, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P7067 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
17 MS. EDGERTON: And just on behalf of my colleague Mr. Jeremy,
18 similarly the excerpts from 65 ter number 31864 have now been uploaded as
19 31864a, and a provisional number for those was assigned as P7066.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think we admitted it already and we instructed
21 Madam Registrar to replace the new -- the old uploaded document by the
22 new one. Therefore there's no need to further decide on the matter and
23 this instruction still stands.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We are now informed that it has been uploaded.
1 Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
3 Q. Just to start up again, Mr. Karac, I'd just like to ask you:
4 Have you ever met General Mladic before?
5 A. Yes, I did meet several -- General Mladic several times.
6 Q. And when was the first time you met General Mladic?
7 A. I think that the first time I met General Mladic was at the Bihac
8 front in 1994.
9 Q. Okay. So you've never met with General Mladic before 1994; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Perfect, thank you. Now just to go back to your statement. You
13 said at paragraph 4 on B/C/S page 2 --
14 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps if we could show Mr. Karac D880 again.
15 B/C/S page 3. English page 2, pardon me.
16 Q. What you said there was -- you talked about the establishment of
17 the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly and when the SDS took power in the
18 town. You mentioned some fighting between Serbian representatives and
19 the government. And then you said:
20 "The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the
21 elections, so they took over the municipal building by force, using
22 weapons and renegade forces composed of Muslims and Green Berets."
23 So when you refer to the Muslims losing the elections, are you --
24 do we understand you right that you're talking about the multi-party
25 elections in November 1990?
1 A. Yes, that's when the SDS had a majority, at those elections.
2 Q. So your evidence is that because the SDS won the elections
3 about -- more than a year earlier, the Muslims took over the municipality
4 building in April 1992; right? Because that's what your statement says.
5 A. Yes. I mean, they took the municipality building and that's
6 where they stayed and they didn't want to leave. The Serb
7 representatives of government could not enter the building, the
8 municipality building.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you missed the gist of the question. The
10 question was whether it was because they had lost the elections, that
11 that is what is explains that more than one and a half year later they
12 took control of the municipality building.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really wouldn't know
14 what the motives were of the Muslim representatives, why they were in the
15 building of the municipal assembly then, and why they didn't allow the
16 Serb representatives to enter the municipality building. I really
17 wouldn't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time, your statement suggests that
19 it was because they had lost the elections, where it reads:
20 "The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the
21 elections, so they took over the municipal building by force ..."
22 That suggests that that's the reason why.
23 Listen carefully to the next question that Ms. Edgerton will put
24 to you.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. So the fact that the non-Serb police had been dispossessed of the
2 SUP on the order of the municipality president, Nedeljko Rasula, had
3 nothing do with the Muslim move into the municipality building. Is that
4 what you're saying?
5 A. I really can't confirm. I just don't have any relevant facts to
6 explain it. I don't know.
7 Q. Well, were you -- were you there in the town of Sanski Most at
8 the time that this happened?
9 A. No, I was not in Sanski Most. The command of my brigade was in
10 Luska Palanka.
11 Q. So when you say that Muslims took over the municipal building by
12 force, that's not because you saw any of it at all; right?
13 A. I didn't see it, really. That's something I heard.
14 Q. And when you said in paragraph 5 of your written evidence that:
15 "The members of my brigade did not participate in occupying the
16 municipal building," is that also something you didn't see but you only
18 A. I know, and I heard, where different parts of my brigade were
19 located. I know for a fact they did not take part in this.
20 Q. Well, then you would know for a fact that what they did do was
21 secure the area all around the municipality building and other local
22 institutions to allow for other forces, Serb forces, to take them over.
23 A. I don't know about that, Your Honours.
24 Q. Well, I want to show you another document. It's P3294. It's the
25 diary of Mr. Rasula, who I just spoke about. And in this diary he has
1 noted a lot of discussions and minutes and decisions that were taken by
2 members of the Crisis Staff that he was a member of around this time.
3 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go to English page 19 and B/C/S
4 page 16.
5 Q. And the page in your language, Mr. Karac, I want you to go on the
6 right-hand side and just have a look at the top of the page on the
7 right-hand side. There's a heading there that says: "Course of action
8 in taking over power and establishing the Serbian municipality of
9 Sanski Most." And right below it, there's a date, and it says 14 April.
10 And --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1992.
12 MS. EDGERTON: 1992.
13 Q. And it refers after that to a session of the Municipal Board of
14 the Serbian Democratic Party being held on that day, and a number of
15 things being decided. And the decisions are on the page that are in --
16 that's in front of you in your language but we'll need to go over to the
17 next page to look at those decisions.
18 So, in English, they're at the top of the page, numbers 1 to 4.
19 And you see them, too. The decisions are to conclude negotiations with
20 the SDA about the division of the municipality, that police forces
21 declare their loyalty to the Serb republic and acceptance of Serbian
22 symbols and insignia, and that any possibility of opposition or
23 intervention on behalf of the adversary be thwarted.
24 If we go to the bottom of the page that your language --
25 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, I think we need to go to the top of the
1 page 17 in B/C/S and on to page 21 in -- sorry, no, stay on page -- the
2 present page in English.
3 Q. You see that -- the notation that: Security measures to
4 forestall any resistance by the opposite side are given below. And then
5 if we go over to point number 2 in English - next page - the security
6 measures are set out. A platoon of reservists from the 6th Krajina
7 Brigade are going to secure and control the bridge, the square, the park,
8 the municipal building, and the post office. And then further, at b
9 there's some tasks for the police that are set out, and at c, some tasks
10 fort Territorial Defence units.
11 Now, you agreed that your job as an intel officer was to keep
12 your command organs constantly updated on the situation. Now, three days
13 before the Muslims even entered the Sanski Most building, five days
14 before the forces that you don't know anything about attacked it, here's
15 a detailed plan for the Serb take-over of Sanski Most involving forces of
16 your brigade. So you must have been a very bad intelligence officer if
17 you didn't know anything about this plan for action.
18 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
20 MR. LUKIC: Where it says that this was enforced, and is it the
21 position of the Prosecution that the Crisis Staff was commanding by JNA
22 units at that time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a mixed objection and comment.
24 If there's any problem with putting a text to the witness,
25 Ms. Edgerton, if there's any dispute about that, please read to him
1 exactly what you wanted to draw his attention to.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I think I have done that, with respect,
3 Your Honours. I've read everything that I've wanted the witness to have
4 a look at.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, then, one second.
7 MR. LUKIC: If I may clarify. My objection was: Is there any
8 proof that this was enforced or this is only on the paper of the Crisis
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's a question. That's a question which,
11 of course, does not need to appear from the document. It is -- if you
12 say you write a book, the question is did you sell it, that means that,
13 of course, the book itself wouldn't tell you that it was sold. It's just
14 a question. There's no reason to object.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the question is about the knowledge
16 about this plan for action, about this plan, not about enforcement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then --
18 MR. LUKIC: Ms. Edgerton asked whether this gentleman agrees that
19 it was his job as intelligence officer to keep his command organs
20 constantly updated on the situation.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not the question. Look at the last two
22 lines of her question:
23 "So you must have been very bad intelligence officer if you
24 didn't know anything about this plan for action."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is denied. May that be clear.
1 Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I'd just like to -- I'm trying to find
3 the cite on the transcript where the gentleman, Mr. Karac, discussed his
4 basic tasks in war time. If I could just have a moment, just to make
5 things perhaps a bit easier, Your Honours.
6 Q. Mr. Karac, you confirmed at temporary transcript page 39 that
7 your role was to collect intelligence about the enemy of your army, of
8 your units. And then my question was:
9 "And that involves not only continually monitoring the enemy but
10 also continually assessing the information and continually reporting on
11 it to people who need to know; right?"
12 And you said: "Yes."
13 So given that answer, I'd like you to have a think about the
14 question I asked about this plan of action. If this was your job, how
15 can you claim you didn't know?
16 MR. LUKIC: Objection. It should be established first whether
17 his job was to monitor Crisis Staff. Was it an enemy? I don't
18 understand at all how --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we're not --
20 MR. LUKIC: -- those two could be connected.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We're not -- we're not discussing at this moment the
22 questions, neither are we discussing the meaning of those words. You can
23 do that in re-examination. The objection is denied.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, this gentleman was intelligence officer,
25 not security officer.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- I said the objection is denied, Mr. Lukic.
2 That's a ruling.
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. EDGERTON:
5 Q. Can you answer my question, Mr. Karac, please.
6 A. Excuse me. I really don't know about these tasks of the
7 Crisis Staff. How would I? Now, whether a platoon of reservists of the
8 6th Krajina Brigade protected and controlled the bridge on the
9 Sana river, I don't know. The commander probably decided to protect the
10 safety of his unit. Because it was quite to be expected at the time that
11 the enemy would try to destroy the bridge. I don't know whether it was
12 really in the context of the Crisis Staff as the text says.
13 Q. Well, let's just flip over to page 22 in English. A meeting
14 started on 20 April 1992, and I'll try to find the B/C/S page.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I think it's
16 page 18 -- no, 22 in B/C/S, I think. 21. Please go one page back to the
17 page bearing the number R1091614.
18 Now, if it takes too long, I'll come back to it after our break,
19 Your Honour, so we can move on and take advantage of the time, but I will
20 come back to that.
21 Q. I want to move on, Mr. Karac, to talk about the disarming
22 operations you -- you discuss in your written evidence. You talked about
23 two locations, Mahala and Hrustovo. First of all, you would agree with
24 me that Mahala is a Muslim suburb of the town of Sanski Most; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it's a residential area. People lived there before the war;
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Right. Now, in your statement, in your written evidence, at
5 paragraph 11, you talked about -- you talked in more detail about Mahala
6 and you said you weren't present when Mahala was disarmed. Where were
7 you in May 1992 during the course of the operation against Mahala?
8 A. I don't know exactly where I was at that time. But when I was
9 talking about that and saying that I was not present during the mopping
10 up of Mahala, I meant that I was not physically there. Now where I was,
11 I really can't remember now. Maybe I was in a different part of the
12 front line or something. I really don't know.
13 Q. Well, if you weren't physically there, how do you know that the
14 army issued a call to surrender weapons?
15 A. More than once the brigade command issued appeals for people to
16 surrender their weapons, and they set deadlines. A number of Muslims
17 surrendered their weapons; others didn't. And then the disarming
18 operation began.
19 Q. Okay. But you didn't quite answer my question. I asked how you
21 A. I knew because there was talk about it in the brigade command.
22 Every time an operation was finished, people discussed how it had
23 developed and what had been going on that day in the unit.
24 Q. Have you heard those radio announcements that you specifically
25 referred to?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. So you would know that those -- there wasn't just one, there
3 wasn't just two, but the call to surrender by the army was continuous.
4 It was going on all the time. You would know that; right?
5 A. I don't know how many times the announcement was made at
6 Radio Sanski Most. But, yes, they were made. I heard them several
8 Q. Well --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get some clarification from the witness.
10 Witness, you just said that you heard about this call to
11 surrender because it was being discussed after the operation; people were
12 talking about it in the brigades. Now, you say you heard the
13 announcements being made. Which of the two is actually correct? Did you
14 hear the announcements, or did you hear from discussions after the
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both are true. I
17 heard announcements on the radio, on the one hand; and on other hand, I
18 got more information in the brigade command after operations were
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] All right. Thank you.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. So having heard some of those radio announcements, you would have
23 heard the broadcasts that Sanski Most was a Serbian town --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the witness does not receive
25 interpretation. Could you --
1 MR. LUKIC: The translator cannot turn on his microphone, I can
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, it seems that the -- I see from the red
4 light that the microphone is functional again. I'll switch off my
6 Please proceed.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. So you would --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Still the microphone of the
11 interpreters' booth is not functioning properly.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for a technician to resolve the problem
14 and we should have some patience.
15 THE INTERPRETER: I have it now again.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. So had you -- if you'd heard those broadcasts -- oh, still
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's again not working.
21 MS. EDGERTON: How frustrating for our colleagues.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I checked already but I think there are no
23 unnecessary microphones open.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Unfortunate that no technicians have arrived
25 yet -- oh, wonderful.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I saw that a technician was at the door-step of the
3 MS. EDGERTON: Wonderful.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the functioning of the microphone is
5 on and off. I now see that it is functioning. I'll switch off my
6 microphone. If after that you would switch on yours, Ms. Edgerton, then
7 we perhaps have a chance of success.
8 MS. EDGERTON: All right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, is there any way you could use another
10 socket or other microphone? Because it may -- your microphone may
11 interfere with the other one.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The technician should stay in the booth until the
13 problem is resolved fully.
14 THE INTERPRETER: It's not, I believe, in our booth. It's
15 somewhere else. So we will have to see where exactly it is, and the
16 technician needs to go and see that. Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Having heard these radio announcements -- my --
19 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Karac still can't hear me speak in his own
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you now.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. So you would have heard then that Sanski Most was a Serbian town
24 and people were being called on to hand over their weapons or face
25 destruction. You would have heard that; right?
1 A. I didn't hear that. I knew that Sanski Most was not a Serbian
2 place. I knew that Muslims lived in Sanski Most. In what percentage, I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Well, did you hear that people were being called on to hand over
5 their weapons voluntarily or face destruction?
6 A. I never heard appeals to kill or destroy people. I heard about
7 surrendering weapons.
8 Q. Do you exclude the possibility that it happened?
9 A. I can't rule out that possibility, Your Honours. It might have
10 happened, but if it did, it was only individual cases.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there may be some confusion.
12 You were asked about whether you heard the announcement on the
13 radio. Then you were asked whether you then also heard that it was
14 broadcasted that people were called on to hand over their weapons
15 voluntarily or face destruction. You said you never heard appeals of
16 this kind. And then when you answered the question about whether you
17 could exclude the possibility that it happened, "it" not being very
18 clear, but apparently Ms. Edgerton referring to the use of this language
19 in the calls made by the radio, you answered:
20 "It might have happened, but if it did, it was only individual
22 The question simply is: When listening to these call-ups, did
23 you hear the threatening language as was put to you by Ms. Edgerton?
24 That's the first question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after the appeal by
1 the brigade command, one part of the population left the area. So one
2 part of the weaponry --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what -- no, that's not what I'm asking.
4 I'm asking whether you heard this language that they would face
5 destruction if they would not hand over their weapons. Did you hear that
6 language being broadcasted?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that members of the
8 Army of Republika Srpska would disarm these units.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apparently for one reason or another, you don't
10 want to address the question I put to you. Did you hear that when people
11 were called up to hand over their weapons, that it was added that if they
12 would not voluntarily do so, that they would face destruction. Did you
13 hear that as part of the announcement?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All those who did not hand in their
15 weapons were a legitimate target.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apparently the witness is not answering my
17 question, for one reason or another. Therefore, this will affect, of
18 course, the probative value of his evidence.
19 Last time: Did you hear, when you listened to the broadcast,
20 that where they were invited to hand over their weapons, that if they
21 would not voluntarily do so, that they would have to face - what was
22 it? - destruction? Did you hear that to be said on the radio?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot now give you the exact
24 quotation of the radio announcement, but I can confirm from the military
25 point of view that armed people for us were legitimate targets to
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we're not talking about targets. We are
3 talking about what was broadcasted.
4 Now, you said you don't remember exactly. Can you exclude that
5 such language was used over the radio when people were called upon to
6 hand over their weapons?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't say any more.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Q. I noticed, Mr. Karac, in your statement that when you talked
13 about Mahala, you omitted to mention that units of your brigade shelled
14 Mahala after the radio announcements that we're talking about, didn't
16 A. Could you please repeat that question.
17 Q. You omitted to mention, when talking about Mahala, that units of
18 your brigade shelled it after the radio announcements we're talking
19 about. You omitted it; right?
20 A. As far as I know, I know there was shelling, and from what I
21 heard from my colleagues at the command, the shells did not land on the
22 inhabited area.
23 Q. So you're confirming now that units of the 6th Brigade, your
24 brigade, shelled Mahala; right?
25 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: It's exactly the opposite what the witness already
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, the witness only said that they did not land on
5 the inhabited area. Now, that's -- again, you can further explore that
6 matter in re-examination. The objection is denied.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. I just want to be precise. It's -- we're talking about units of
9 the 6th Brigade that shelled; right?
10 A. Yes, there were a couple of shells that fell, but I repeat: The
11 shells did not land on the inhabited area. They did not fall on
12 buildings. It was more of a warning to people to hand in their weapons,
13 to disarm paramilitary formations.
14 Q. So you have no knowledge of the fact that civilians were killed
15 in Mahala as a result of this shelling, do you?
16 A. I don't have such information. Or, rather, I don't know about
17 anything like that.
18 Q. You know, however, that your brigade, units of your brigade,
19 entered Mahala after this shelling; right?
20 A. Yes, units entered Mahala after that shelling, yes.
21 Q. So -- and as intel officer you would also know that once your
22 units entered Mahala, they arrested people in huge numbers; right? You
23 know that.
24 A. As far as I know, some of these people were arrested, and that
25 was done by the security organs.
1 Q. In fact, the numbers arrested were extraordinary. There was
2 around 2.000 civilians who were taken out of Mahala once units of your
3 brigade had entered; right?
4 A. I know that before the operation -- well, I don't know what the
5 exact number is, but I know that before the operation, a certain number,
6 and there were several hundreds civilians that had left the area, I mean,
7 Mahala ...
8 Q. But you're the intel officer, so your job is to get intelligence
9 on enemy activities for your units, and one of the ways you do that is by
10 interrogating people that your forces had detained. So you -- you can't
11 tell us how many people were arrested following the take-over of Mahala?
12 A. I really don't know, Your Honours. I really don't know.
13 Q. But I put the number to you of around 2.000 people. That's a
14 huge logistical concern. You would have had to mobilise resources to
15 conduct the interrogations you needed to do to brief your commander, and
16 you now don't know how many people came into your custody?
17 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Again there is mixing between
18 intelligence and security.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There's no mixing --
20 MR. LUKIC: Ms. Edgerton said "you" -- she should first ask this
21 gentleman whether he interrogated anybody and whether it was his job,
22 whether it was his duty.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's suggested and that is permissible in
24 cross-examination. You may suggest these kind of things. That's what we
25 call leading questions. And if you disagree, then you can re-visit the
1 matter in re-examination.
2 MR. LUKIC: This was without foundation, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that is what is allowed in
4 cross-examination. Please try to understand the difference. Of course,
5 there's no basis for it. You suggest something to a witness and then you
6 ask the witness to confirm or not, and that's exactly the difference.
7 But we may have noticed that earlier that you're not fully aware of what
8 the difference is between examination-in-chief in which leading questions
9 are not allowed, where a basis has to be laid, compared to leading
10 questions in cross-examination.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question?
14 A. I think I've answered that question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is your answer that you were not aware of this huge
16 number of people being arrested?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the number, but
18 I know that people had been arrested, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And did you have no idea whether it was 2, or 500,
20 or 10.000? You had no idea about how many had been arrested?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said, Your Honour,
22 that I don't know the exact number, whether it was 50, 100, 150, I really
23 don't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then give us the approximate number.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't want to say
1 anything that was not true. Believe me, I don't know exactly what number
2 it might be.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were to say anything --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the problem is that Ms. Edgerton has
6 difficulties in understanding that you, in your position, had no
7 knowledge whatsoever about numbers, where, as she suggests to you, it
8 would have had perhaps quite an impact on the job you were doing. That's
9 the issue.
10 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Just to finish up with Mahala, Mr. Karac, in fact, the operation
13 to mop up, to disarm the settlement of Mahala was a planned and
14 co-ordinated operation that didn't only touch on that area but a number
15 of non-Serb areas. That's the truth of the matter, isn't it?
16 A. Yes, that's what the situation was. And as for all of these
17 activities that were being carried out, they had all been planned.
18 Q. Right. And the operation was so effective and the devastation in
19 Mahala was so serious that the situation was actually used as -- as a
20 threat for remaining Muslim-held areas, wasn't it? People were given the
21 choice: Surrender or face the same situation that Mahala did.
22 A. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how Muslims understood it at
23 that point. Probably that way, but I really don't know. I mean, whether
24 they understood our action then as some kind of a threat so that others
25 would do -- well, later on, it turned out that it wasn't that way.
1 According to some information, part of these people from Mahala
2 withdrew towards Hrustovo and Vrhpolje. Now what the number was, I
3 really don't know. However, people were saying that between 150 and
4 200 people returned to Vrhpolje and Golaja.
5 Q. Well, you know, Mr. Karac, this Chamber has received the
6 recordings of the radio broadcasts we've been discussing, and, in fact,
7 the -- there was nothing unclear about the message to the Muslims, and I
8 want to have a look at one of them.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's P3301, please. Now, I want to go to B/C/S
10 page 3 and English page 3, in fact. And in -- hmm. Your indulgence for
11 a moment. Apologies. Could we go to 3302.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have the feeling that you were looking at the
13 English part. It's on top of the page which is currently on the screen,
14 aren't you?
15 MS. EDGERTON: For another purpose. And I'm not able to find the
16 B/C/S immediately. But perhaps we could go to 3302 and I have the --
17 mm-hm. And, again, your indulgence for a moment.
18 Let's go to English page 7 and B/C/S page 11. Thank you.
19 Q. Now, I want to direct you to the commentary by the female voice
20 which begins on page 7 and runs over to page 8. But what this woman says
21 to the people who are listening to the broadcast is that:
22 "Your resistance will force us to destroy and devastate your
23 villages which means that you will not be able to live with us in these
24 territories. And if you" --
25 MS. EDGERTON: Have to go over to the next page in B/C/S.
1 Q. "If you do want to go on living with us in these territories,
2 accept co-operation and hand over all the weapons and military equipment
3 and surrender to the Serbian authorities all the extremists who force to
4 you fight."
5 And then there's a list of villages a little bit further down the
6 page who are called to surrender their weapons. And -- among them
7 Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. But at the very sentence following that list of
8 names, there's one more reminder to the non-Serbs:
9 "Again, we call on you to be sensible and ask the inhabitants to
10 respond to this call. If not, we will be forced to act as we did with
12 So, Mr. Karac, the message was very clear: The choice was to
13 surrender and pledge allegiance to a mono-ethnic Serbian authority or
14 face destruction. That was the choice the non-Serbs at Sanski Most had
15 to make, wasn't it?
16 A. The Muslim population kept part of the -- actually, part of the
17 paramilitary formations kept their weapons and uniforms, and they had
18 clashed with the Army of Republika Srpska. The Army of Republika Srpska
19 responded to this provocation or, rather, disarmed these paramilitary
21 Now, I mean, whether they had a choice. Well, probably. I mean,
22 to hand over their weapons and to leave as free citizens or to clash. We
23 all know what an armed clash entails and what the consequences of an
24 armed clash are.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is an armed clash automatically that villages
1 will be destroyed and devastated?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends, Your Honour, on
3 the intensity of combat and what kind of enemy is there. So if the enemy
4 is better fortified, then targets will be selected. So it's not the same
5 when one uses heavy weaponry and artillery or just side-arms. That's the
6 intensity that I'm talking about.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not what the broadcast says.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's time for the next break, I think,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is.
12 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may follow
13 the usher.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
20 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber takes it when you said that this morning
21 you complained when you were at the Registry that it was not a complaint
22 against the Registry. Not them to blame for --
23 MR. LUKIC: No, no, it's not complaint about --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's how --
25 MR. LUKIC: -- the Registry. It's about our database, about our
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
3 MR. LUKIC: No, it's not complaint --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's well understood. That's hereby on the
5 record. And then rather than to express your problems to the Registry
6 perhaps --
7 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry if I created any confusion.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you have organised your team well, then
9 even you don't have to inform the Registry about your concerns. We leave
10 it to that.
11 There was one other matter. You intervened when Ms. Edgerton was
12 asking questions about what was ordered and you said, well, he is an
13 intelligence officer not a security officer, which suggests that the
14 logic and the formal definitions are always guiding. Again, you can
15 explore that in re-examination. But if I see that the Municipal Board of
16 a party decides on how to instruct the army, then perhaps the formal
17 lines are not always as clear as in practice.
18 Therefore, again, no problem with examining the witness on that
19 but it was not a reason to intervene in this specific context.
20 Let's proceed.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. Mr. Karac, just to finish up with Mahala. Just before we broke,
24 you were explaining to Judge Orie about the intensity of combat and what
25 kind of enemy is there, and made the observation that if the enemy is
1 better fortified, then targets would be selected. But just bringing that
2 whole discussion back to Mahala, in fact, any forces that might have
3 been, any Bosnian forces that might have been in Mahala were completely
4 outmatched by the strength of your unit and their weaponry. Isn't that
5 the case?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the position of the Prosecution that there
8 were Bosnian army soldiers in Mahala at the time? Or is it just a
9 supposition, a hypothetical question?
10 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not able to give Your Honours an immediate
11 answer on this, but I'll be able to do that forthwith.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. EDGERTON: And if could you indulge me for a moment, I seem
14 to have plugged into some non-working microphones in here and I would
15 like to be able to just take full part in this.
16 Q. What I'd like to do is move on to another area you talked about
17 in your written evidence and that's about the disarming, because that's
18 what you called it, of Hrustovo. Now Hrustovo is another Muslim area of
19 Sanski Most; right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And now, once again, when you refer to "the army," like you did
22 at paragraph 13 of your written evidence, and I'll read you exactly what
23 you said. You said:
24 "When the army approached Hrustovo in combat formation just
25 before it entered Hrustovo, the army came under fire, and when the army
1 was attacked there was an exchange of fire," and so forth.
2 So here when you refer to "the army," do you mean again to refer
3 to units of your brigade, the 6th?
4 A. Yes, precisely, I meant that, precisely.
5 Q. Now, when you discussed Hrustovo, what I also noticed was you
6 omitted to mention -- you omitted to mention that 1st -- soldiers of your
7 brigade, 1st Infantry Brigade soldiers, went in and killed women and
8 children who had taken refuge inside a garage in Hrustovo. You omitted
9 that, didn't you?
10 A. I don't know about that. Had I known, I would have said that.
11 Q. So you have no knowledge about the fact that soldiers of your
12 unit stood in front of the garage and opened up with automatic
13 machine-guns and threw hand-grenades into the garage and killed
14 civilians. Is that what you're telling us?
15 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Asked and answered.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question again. In
17 cross-examination you can sometimes put a question twice.
18 Please proceed. Did you -- did you -- your evidence is that you
19 had no knowledge about what was described by Ms. Edgerton?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know, I mean, but
21 I don't rule out the possibility that that did happen.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You also never learned later that that may have
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't interested in that. I
25 was involved in a different unit so that stayed that way, unresolved.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. And Hrustovo is the one place where you were actually personally
3 on scene, right? Because that's what we can understand from your written
5 A. I was not on the actual front line with the soldiers. I was part
6 of the brigade command. Because, at that time, as far as I can remember,
7 I was in Tomina, in the village of Tomina.
8 Q. All right. I'd look to move to another area and it's actually
9 the final area. And I want to do that, I want to start telling you about
10 an event on 14 May 1992. Now, on that day in Kljuc, there was a big
11 political military meeting. And General Galic was there, your commander,
12 Basara was there, and there were municipal heads from all the
13 municipalities covered by a larger area that represented the area of
14 responsibility of the 30th Infantry Division.
15 Now, at that meeting, all the participants were briefed about the
16 strategic objectives that had been announced by President Karadzic at the
17 Bosnian Serb Assembly two days previously. And you know about that
18 meeting, don't you?
19 A. Yes, I know about that meeting.
20 Q. And that's because you were there; right?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. And so since you were there, you can confirm that -- actually,
23 I'll do this another way.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Let's have a look, then, at 65 ter number 31874.
25 Q. How big was the meeting? And where was it held?
1 A. I think it was held in the building of the Municipal Assembly of
2 Kljuc where I was present, myself, for a while. Part of that meeting,
3 that is. Since Colonel Basara took me along, since I am from Kljuc, so
4 that I could see my family at the same time. So that is the reason why I
5 was in Kljuc.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Now, let's go over in the B/C/S which happens to
7 be on the left-hand side, although what you see is in English, over to, I
8 think, page 3, please.
9 Q. So what you see in front of you is a JNA military notebook. And
10 you're familiar with these, aren't you? Every officer had one of these;
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And they're --
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. They're official books; right?
16 A. Yes. Official books that every officer had and the number of
17 pages was certified on the last page, and then these notebooks were
18 returned to the organ that they had originally been received from. When
19 it is completed, then the notebook has to be returned.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go over to the next page in B/C/S, please.
21 Q. This is your notebook, isn't it? That's your name in your
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. EDGERTON: So let's go over in this B/C/S book to pages --
25 page 66. And we don't actually need to move at all in English. But
1 perhaps you can enlarge the right-hand side of page 66 so Mr. Karac can
2 see his own notes.
3 Q. So, Mr. Karac, here's your notes of the meeting that you were at.
4 Actually, you have it noted as being the 13th of July, 1995, and not the
5 14th. And you listed the persons present, including Colonel Galic,
6 Colonel Basara, and representatives of the municipalities of Kljuc and
7 Mrkonjic Grad and Jajce. Now --
8 A. Sipovo.
9 Q. And I missed Sipovo. So just because you haven't seen this, I
10 would imagine, in quite a few years, I'd actually like to give you a
11 moment to have a look at your own handwriting.
12 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.
13 Q. All right.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go over to the next page, please, in both
16 Q. And I'd like Mr. Karac to have a look at both sides, again, just
17 so that can he see what his notes say on the first page, and then go over
18 to the right-hand side.
19 A. Could you please make it larger? I can't see.
20 Q. So here's the military giving some briefings on the situation,
21 including your Colonel Basara. And you could just tell us when you get
22 to the bottom of your page that you've got presently displayed in front
23 of you.
24 A. We can turn the page.
25 Q. Okay. So here you've got notes of seven strategic goals. These
1 were the goals that you were told had been announced at the meeting in
2 Banja Luka, weren't they?
3 A. Yes, those are the goals that were notified to us then.
4 Q. And these are ... these were your war goals, weren't they?
5 A. Those were not my war goals. Those were the goals set by the
6 state leadership.
7 Q. All right.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Now, could we just go quickly over to another
9 document and then we'll come back to this one. P2867.
10 Q. So here we've got some minutes of that same meeting that you took
11 such good notes of, listing the same participants. And if you go over to
12 page 3 in both languages, setting out at points 1 to 6, almost the same
13 strategic goals.
14 Now, I know it's going fast, but if we can hop over to page 4 in
15 both languages, I want to draw your attention to something General Galic
17 And if you need to, I can go back to the immediately preceding
18 page so you can see, you can confirm for yourself that it is attributed
19 to General Galic; but if not, I want to draw your attention to the first
20 bullet point -- I'm speaking about the English version. I want to draw
21 your attention to the first bullet point underneath General Galic's
22 proposal for a conclusion. General Galic says:
23 "Implement the decisions from the meeting in Banja Luka but
24 submit them to the commands of units and municipalities."
25 So here's my question that I'd like you to confirm: In the area
1 of responsibility of your brigade, this is how co-operation as between
2 the different arms of authority happened, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So the strategic goals that were set in Banja Luka were shared
5 goals that guided your military operations. That's what this document
6 shows, doesn't it?
7 A. They were not shared goals. They came down from the state
8 leadership, and the army was supposed to implement them.
9 Q. So, in fact, when you said -- can we just go back to the
10 preceding page and we can look at the first goal again, which you also
11 have noted in your notebook. So when you said in your written evidence
12 that the role of your brigade wasn't -- was to keep the peace between the
13 opposing sides, that's actually incorrect, isn't it, because the first
14 overarching goal of your brigade and the military forces was to ensure a
15 state separation of three national communities; right?
16 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: My learned friend is misrepresenting the evidence she
19 just pulled up. On the screen, we don't have it, but the last page we
20 had a moment ago, and we should see what Galic - Mr. Galic at the time,
21 probably not General yet - said.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think what Madam Edgerton is quoting at this
23 moment is number one on the page that is before us. Is there anything
24 wrong with that quote?
25 MR. LUKIC: The question is in contradiction with this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then re-read the question. One second,
3 MR. LUKIC: Because it says --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One -- I asked you to ... the objection is denied.
5 I will give you in detail the reasons why.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can you give it to me now?
8 JUDGE ORIE: I will give it at a -- before you have an
9 opportunity to re-examine the witness.
10 MR. LUKIC: Can I not object when somebody is misrepresenting the
11 evidence that it's addressing --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this is not the beginning of a debate.
13 This is a ruling.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: And I said that the reasons will follow soon in more
16 detail but I'm not inclined to do that in the presence of the witness at
17 this moment.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: What I'm going to do is actually maybe to help
20 Mr. Karac and go back to his diary for a second at 65 ter number 31874,
21 having seen this document.
22 And in B/C/S, I want to go to page 68, I think, and English
23 page 3. Make it English page 4, please.
24 Q. So what happened, Mr. Karac, after this meeting was that you and
25 the staff held a meeting --
1 MS. EDGERTON: We could go -- we should go and enlarge the
2 right-hand side of the B/C/S page of Mr. Karac's notebook. Thanks.
3 Q. So on the 14th of May in 1992, so the next day after this
4 meeting, there was a brigade command meeting. And do you see the
5 citation that says "General Mladic" and then lists a number of points
6 below that: To close geographic latitudes so that borders can be
7 defended successfully. It has been envisaged that those territories are
9 And then you might be able to read the next passage better for us
10 because it's in your handwriting and I think the translator has missed a
11 word. "Europe," with a question mark, "has envisaged relocation also,"
12 and then it goes on. Point number 1.
13 So I asked you at the beginning -- here's my question. I asked
14 about -- at the beginning of the second session you were here whether you
15 had met General Mladic before and you said only in 1994. So
16 General Mladic wasn't here at this meeting, was he?
17 A. I don't see that before me. I don't know which document you're
18 talking about.
19 Q. Okay. Have a look, the screen in front of you, underneath the
20 title that you've underlined where it says:
21 "Meeting of the brigade command and the battalion commander."
22 There's a small notation, just at the top on the left-hand side,
23 and it says "General Mladic."
24 If you don't see that, you can still answer the question.
25 General Mladic wasn't at this meeting, was he?
1 A. General Mladic was not present at that meeting. Why I wrote
2 "General Mladic," I really can't remember now. Maybe somebody talked
3 about General Mladic or something, but I maintain that General Mladic was
4 not present at that meeting.
5 Q. No, I didn't think so, but let me put this to you. Here's what I
6 think is happening at this meeting. So four days after the strategic
7 objectives are announced by Dr. Karadzic in Banja Luka, they're briefed
8 to the political -- the Serbian political and military leaders in your
9 area, and then the following day, here you were receiving even more
10 detailed instructions from Mladic's subordinates about different aspects
11 of those war goals. That's what was going on; right?
12 A. I don't understand your question. Could you maybe put it
14 Q. Sure. You heard the war goals. You were at the meeting where
15 they were discussed. The next day, the whole brigade command had a
16 meeting with their battalion commanders about those war goals and how
17 they should be implemented, and that's what you noted on the 14th of May,
18 isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. So I asked you a little while ago about the first
21 objective, and we can go back to that page in your notebook so you
22 yourself can have a look at it.
23 MS. EDGERTON: It's page 66, so it's the page immediately
24 preceding. 67, pardon me. And I think it's page 2 in the translated
1 Q. So have a look again at goal number 1 that you noted down. Goal
2 number 1 is:
3 "State separation from the other two communities."
4 So I want to put to you is: Based on what you said, your
5 brigade's task had nothing -- based on what you said and what happened in
6 Sanski Most, your brigade's task had nothing to do with keeping the peace
7 between the factions. It was to ensure their separation pursuant to the
8 war goals articulated by the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?
9 A. I said the brigade had arrived in the area of Sanski Most to keep
10 peace in the municipality, and that was indeed done until the moment when
11 attacks began against members of the army of what was then the Republic
12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Until then, they were keeping the peace.
13 However, when the members of the army were attacked, the army
14 responded, and then these orders followed and we received well-defined,
15 strategic goals.
16 Q. And in places -- just going to the two places you spoke about in
17 your written evidence, Mahala and Hrustovo, by the 30th of May, 1992,
18 there were no non-Serbs left, were there?
19 A. I think that was so. I believe the majority of the population
20 had already left.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. EDGERTON: I'll have nothing further, Your Honours. And what
23 I'm going to ask is for the selected pages that we discussed about
24 65 ter 31874 to be admitted and as a Prosecution Exhibit, and we'll
25 upload those excerpts forthwith.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll wait for that selection. Meanwhile we
2 should reserve a number for it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It receives P7070, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time would you
6 approximately need?
7 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying to calculate. Probably 15 minutes. Not
8 more than 20, 15.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll have to do that tomorrow. Perhaps
10 it's better also then to start your re-examination tomorrow morning.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll adjourn soon but you are already --
13 you may go already. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning for only
14 a very short session at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom. And
15 I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way,
16 with whomever, about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've
17 given today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow. You
18 may follow the usher.
19 Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And with respect --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence. I've been beckoned by
24 Mr. Tieger.
25 And just with respect to the query by your colleague His Honour
1 Judge Moloto, if I may I'd like to come back to Your Honours with a
2 response to that first thing tomorrow morning when we resume.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Lukic, I think I still owe you the
4 reasoning for the denial of your objection. I carefully read the
5 question. The first part of the question is about the first goal, as it
6 appears in the notebook, and then the question followed by:
7 "So when you said in your written evidence that the role of your
8 brigade was to keep the peace between opposing sides, that's actually
9 incorrect ..."
10 I think that's what the statement says, isn't it?
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it does.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then it continued by saying:
13 "... because the first overarching goal of your brigade and the
14 military forces was to ensure state separation of the three national
16 And that is what is found, I think, in the document we had read;
18 MR. LUKIC: That's the continuation but the question was composed
19 that Ms. Edgerton wanted to show that this witness is not telling the
20 truth when he said that the goal of the brigade was to separate warring
21 parties at that time. And the document we saw on our screens exactly
22 said the same, and using that document to prove the opposite is not
23 logical for me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, whether it's logical
25 or not, that is something different from misrepresenting the evidence.
1 MR. LUKIC: And it was misrepresentation of the evidence as well.
2 Because the document said differently --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think what Ms. Edgerton did with this question and
4 why I ruled that the objection was denied is that she put opposite to
5 each other the statement of the witness compared to what is found in the
6 document as the first strategic goal as written down in that notebook.
7 There's nothing wrong with that because it's fully understandable that
8 one reads that as possibly inconsistent, the one with the other, and
9 that's what Ms. Edgerton referred to in her question and that's the
10 reason why I ruled that the objection was denied.
11 MR. LUKIC: I will deal with that tomorrow in my re-direct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No problem to deal with such matters in
13 re-examination, Mr. Lukic, I emphasise that again and again. Therefore,
14 we'll wait and hear tomorrow.
15 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
16 28th of January, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
19 January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.