Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30671

 1                           Tuesday, 27 January 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There were two items still on our list where the Defence would

12     have to inform the Chamber, which was impossible yesterday, that is,

13     about the scheduling of the remainder of the case and report on expert

14     witnesses.  Meanwhile, the Chamber has received some information.  The

15     first one is that the Defence will -- has reviewed the witness list and

16     that you have decided not to call 30 witnesses.  And then it says the

17     time saved for not calling these witnesses will be reallocated to

18     remaining witnesses.  I do understand that that is the way in which you

19     would like to use your time.  The Chamber will further consider this.  We

20     do not have yet the names of the witnesses, which ones are -- do you have

21     the list of 30, Mr. Lukic?

22             MR. LUKIC:  It can be provided to Your Honours during the day.  I

23     don't have it with me, but I know that on Sunday we discussed and we

24     specifically marked whom we are not going to call.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have a final list of that, of course,

Page 30672

 1     the Chamber would appreciate to know which ones are stricken because we

 2     are, of course, working on the basis of our witness list and our 65 ter

 3     summaries.

 4             That is one issue.  Again, about how to use the time, we might

 5     need to analyse a bit more in detail what happened until now in terms of

 6     time, not the ultimate number of hours used but also how they were used,

 7     but we'll further analyse that before we -- we express ourselves on which

 8     we would expect the Defence to do.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And, Your Honour, as you know, we do not have that

10     many 92 ter witnesses left, so in the future we will be using time much

11     more than we did until now, since we have to lead some witnesses

12     viva voce and we will spend much more time with each witness in future.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a look at your -- at time estimates and

14     which witnesses will be stricken, and then we'll look at the whole of it

15     and then we'll give further guidance or even perhaps further instructions

16     to the Defence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are there no 92 bis?

18             MR. LUKIC:  There will be some 92 bis witnesses, but I don't

19     think more than 10, I think, 15.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The number is quite limited from what I remember

21     from your original list.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But, again, we'd like to hear from you further

24     details about witnesses you have taken out and could you please do that

25     in writing rather than to read long lists of names in court.

Page 30673

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we also received - and there was a deadline for

 3     that as well - some information about expert witnesses.

 4             Well, it's only for three expert witnesses that you announce in

 5     more detail what you expect will happen, that is, that the reports will

 6     be there the first two weeks of February.  All the rest is rather vague,

 7     what you hope, and you're going to update.  Well, that doesn't give

 8     really the information, I think, we were seeking in sufficient detail.

 9     So therefore, we received it only yesterday evening, late, we have not

10     discussed it yet.  But if there's anything can you add to what is found

11     in that e-mail which says that demographer Svetlana Radovanovic, military

12     expert Mitar Kovac, and demolition of cultural sites expert

13     Dragic Gojkovic were -- are expected to have the reports ready and for

14     you to be filed in the first two weeks in February.  And that for the two

15     ballistic experts, that they are being prepared and that you hopefully

16     soon will be in a position to know when their 94 bis admission will be

17     expected to be filed.  And finally, the radio communications expert and

18     history expert and forensic pathologist, that you asked them for an

19     update.  Of course, the Chamber asked you for an update rather than to

20     hear from you that you passed on this request.  I just summarised what we

21     found in the e-mail exchange so that this -- so that it is on the record.

22             The Chamber certainly will insist on receiving rather soon far

23     more information.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And we may set a deadline for that.  We'll consider

Page 30674

 1     that once we have discussed your e-mail.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I move on to another item on my agenda, which

 4     is the Defence Rule 92 ter motion for Milan Tutoric.

 5             On the 19th of November, the -- of last year, the Defence filed a

 6     motion to have the evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric be admitted pursuant

 7     to Rule 92 ter.  On the 3rd of December, the Prosecution filed its

 8     response objecting to the admission of the evidence on the ground that,

 9     inter alia, the written statement:  1, contains inadmissible opinion

10     evidence; and, 2, lacks relevance and fails to meet the minimum threshold

11     of reliability.

12             The Prosecution further objects to the introduction of an expert

13     opinion from this witness who is presented by the Defence as a witness of

14     fact.  On 18th of December, the Chamber expressed a desire for the

15     Defence to file an additional submission addressing whether it would be

16     more appropriate for the Defence to introduce this witness as an expert

17     witness.  The Chamber set a deadline of the 12th of January of this year

18     for this submission.  As of today's date, the Defence has not filed or

19     presented an additional submission, and under these circumstances the

20     Chamber denies, without prejudice, the Defence motion pursuant to

21     Rule 92 ter to admit the written testimony of Milan Tutoric.

22             Although I have a few more items on my agenda, we would --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I just complained to

24     Registry this morning that it was very hard for us to track all the

25     deadlines and the decisions, and we are -- as you would notice lately, we

Page 30675

 1     missed several deadlines and it was the reason why, because we cannot

 2     track all the decisions.  So I would kindly ask you to give us with

 3     Milan Tutoric more time.  I was of an opinion that even that motion is

 4     filed to have him as an expert witness, so I don't know what happened.

 5     And --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll consider that --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We have to regroup after this break because we just

 8     gathered here.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One of the problems, Mr. Lukic, is that the

12     interlocutory decision has been delivered a minute ago by me, and we

13     can't just immediately undo that.  If anything was filed, we'll see it,

14     but we'll consider the whole situation, and that we said "without

15     prejudice," which is part of our decision, means that you have an

16     opportunity with new arguments to re-open the debate.

17             We'll see what comes.  But granting additional time after we've

18     delivered our decision is not something that is easily done.  If you

19     would have asked us to reconsider it, then we would still need reasons

20     for that.  But if the decision is given without prejudice, then, of

21     course, you don't even -- I would say if you have good arguments, you can

22     re-introduce the matter, and there's no reason for us to reconsider the

23     decision because you can introduce the matter again --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on better grounds.  Finally, if you have

Page 30676

 1     difficulties in tracking deadlines, there is a very simple solution for

 2     that; that is, to organise yourself, make a spreadsheet, and everyone who

 3     hears of a deadline in court, counsel, writes it down.  It will be

 4     imported in the spreadsheet immediately after which can you sort on date,

 5     on names, on kind of -- it's really not that complex.  It makes the

 6     Chamber fear that the deadlines we set were not accurately recorded

 7     within your own system, which is worrying.

 8             I think that for the witness, Mr. Zoric, you still have some time

 9     left, I think some 15 minutes, for examination-in-chief.  Are you ready

10     to continue, Mr. Stojanovic?

11             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we can briefly deal with one matter.  That

14     is a matter remaining with the testimony of Milos Skrba.

15             During the testimony of Witness Skrba in June 2014, the Chamber

16     asked -- I'll stop because otherwise the witness would have to wait too

17     long.  I'll re-visit the scale of maps issue soon.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Zoric.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll continue to hear your evidence, but before we

22     do so, I'd like to remind that you that you're still bound by the solemn

23     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

24             Mr. Stojanovic will now continue.

25             Could you perhaps go a little bit further away from the

Page 30677

 1     microphone.  Yes.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 3                           WITNESS:  MILORAD ZORIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zoric.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 9     With your leave, I would like to read a brief summary of this witness's

10     statement.  I believe that's where we left off with the questioning of

11     this witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milorad Zoric is a

14     defectologist by training, and until the war, he worked as an educator in

15     Bihac.  That's where he was when the war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He

16     testifies about the deterioration of inter-ethnic relations, the arming

17     of Muslims in Bihac, and attacks on JNA barracks in Bihac.

18             He was forced to leave the town on 25 May 1992, and immediately

19     after his leaving, his apartment was broken into by six armed persons.

20     After leaving town, he joined the VRS which took him in, fed him, and

21     gave him clothing after which he was assigned to the 15th Bihac Light

22     Infantry Brigade.  One month later, he was transferred to the press

23     centre of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  He stayed there until the end of the

24     war, working as a war cameraman, doing jobs for the corps, for the

25     Serbian TV, and the Reuters agency.

Page 30678

 1             Further on in his statement, he says that without encountering

 2     any problems or restrictions, he followed and filmed a large number of

 3     important events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, including visits by

 4     General McKenzie, Mr. Clark, General Morillon, Mr. Akashi and others.  He

 5     followed and filmed also assembly meetings and toured front lines and the

 6     sites of numerous battles.  He made about 500 exclusive reports that were

 7     sent by -- to Reuters and picked up by other world agencies.

 8             He says that he noticed that news from Republika Srpska were

 9     unable to breakthrough the media blockade that had been imposed on

10     Republika Srpska.  The witness personally filmed a large number of

11     locations and victims of Serb nationality who were visibly mutilated at

12     exchanges and territories that were burnt down, causing rage and desire

13     for vengeance on the Serbian side.  He speaks about a large number of

14     encounters with General Mladic during the war and the interviews that he

15     had with him.  He describes in detail the positions held by

16     General Mladic on the war, the objectives of the war, honouring of the

17     enemy, asking this reporter to publish only the truth.

18             That is all.

19             With your leave, I would like to put only three questions to this

20     witness to clarify his statement.

21             Could we call up in e-court, please, a document which is now

22     D877, paragraph 14, and that is the statement of this witness.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zoric, in a minute you will see the text of

24     your statement.  Please focus on paragraph 14 where you mentioned the

25     fact that on 24 May 1992, a day before you left Bihac, you went to see a

Page 30679

 1     friend at the assembly building where she worked that evening.

 2             Could you please tell the Court why you emphasised this, this

 3     meeting you had that evening in the building of the assembly of the

 4     municipality of Bihac?

 5        A.   I can confirm that.  That friend is a lady with whom I lived in a

 6     common-law marriage.  She worked in the municipality of Bihac, and at

 7     that time all enterprises and businesses were organising night-time duty

 8     service.  So she asked me to visit her at work that evening.  The time --

 9     the town was calm and peaceful.  And when I got there, she was waiting

10     for me.  A shoot-out started, a skirmish.  I can't say exactly from where

11     the shooting was coming, but I believe all the sides were -- both sides

12     were shooting.  From the centre, you can't really see where the shooting

13     is coming from.  Panic broke out.  Some of the clerks who were former

14     schoolmates of mine with whom I had grown up and had no discrimination

15     whatsoever against them were starting to shout at me:  Look what your

16     people are doing to us, et cetera et cetera.

17             I left quickly and went to the apartment of my sister at the

18     other end of town.  My sister was married to a Muslim, and I felt sort of

19     safer with them.

20        Q.   Is that the reason why you decided to leave Bihac and your home?

21        A.   Well, it was very hard in Bihac during those last days,

22     especially when you leave your house.  People were shouting at you:  We

23     should chase you out; you should be killed.  I wasn't used to hearing

24     such threats.  I'm a peaceful man by nature.  I had never thought that

25     this time would come for us to part ways.  I decided to leave town with

Page 30680

 1     my lady friend.  She decided to leave the town and her family behind.  On

 2     25 May, we got into the car and just left.

 3             If you want me, I can tell you the details of that departure.

 4        Q.   No, that's not necessary.  Let's look at paragraph 26 of your

 5     statement.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's D877 for the record.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 26, you talk about how impossible it was to break

 8     through the media blockade in Republika Srpska.  Could you please tell

 9     the Court why you mentioned that your statement, why you believed that.

10        A.   Well, once the war had started, when both sides took up military

11     positions, one man came from the United States, a Serb immigrant to the

12     United States, he brought some aid for our fighters, and he asked me to

13     make a compilation of all the recordings, all the films I had made.  So I

14     gathered whatever I could from other TV stations and films that I made

15     myself.  He said - and he lived in New Jersey - I'll try to take it to

16     the United States.  And later he found me and said:  Not a single TV

17     station wants to broadcast this, no matter how much money I offered.

18             So there was a media blockade.  The first news from our side

19     started to come out when the Reuters agency established themselves in

20     Republika Srpska.  They published and broadcast quite correct reporting

21     about our side.  That was in 1994 and later.  From that time on, it was

22     easier to breathe.

23        Q.   Paragraph 50 of your statement, D877.  Mr. Zoric, just for

24     clarification, tell the Court about this last interview you had with

25     General Ratko Mladic.  Where did it take place?  Where did you speak with

Page 30681

 1     General Mladic?

 2        A.   I believe that is indeed the last interview he gave.  It was in

 3     the beginning of August at the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps at

 4     Ostrelj, that's between Drvar and Bosanski Petrovac.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zoric, thank you very much for answering our questions on

 6     behalf of the Defence team of General Mladic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just put one question for clarification.

 9             You just said it was in the beginning of August, but in your

10     statement it says at the end of August 1995.  Which is true?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we amended this statement.

12     It was the beginning of August.  Together with the lawyer, I --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, during the

14     proofing we corrected this.  And thank you for your attention.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.

17     You find him to your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.

18             Mr. Jeremy.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zoric.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Now I'd like to just discuss briefly your -- the units that were

24     in and your commanding officers.

25             Now, in your statement we read that after your mobilisation on

Page 30682

 1     the 9th of May, 1992, you were assigned to the 15th Bihac Light Infantry

 2     Brigade.  Now, at this time, your brigade commander was Sveto Mrdja; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   At that time, it was Colonel Matic.  Sveto Mrdja came later,

 5     after Matic.

 6        Q.   Do you know when that change in command took place?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't interested.  But in practice, soldiers do

 8     know when such changes take place.

 9        Q.   Now we also read in your statement that in June 1992, you were

10     transferred to the press centre of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  Now at this

11     time, the 2nd Krajina Corps commander was Major-General Grujo Boric;

12     correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And he was later succeeded in November 1994 by Major-General

15     Radivoje Tomanic.  Is that also correct?

16        A.   Tomanic, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you remained a member of the 2nd Krajina press

18     corps throughout the war from June 1992 onwards; correct?

19        A.   In the 2nd Corps from June onwards, and in the VRS from

20     9 May 1992 to 31st March 1996.

21        Q.   And within the 2nd Corps from June onwards, you were a member of

22     the 2nd Krajina Corps press centre until the end of the war; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Now, in paragraph 22 of your statement, you refer to yourself as

Page 30683

 1     a journalist of Reuters.  Now I understand by that, that you mean that as

 2     a member of the 2nd Krajina press centre you would occasionally supply

 3     material to Reuters; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.  With the permission of my superiors.

 5     Sometimes I didn't even ask for permission.  I did whatever I thought was

 6     needed, whatever I thought was right.  Nobody ever had any quarrel with

 7     it.  Everybody even wanted to see it and they wanted the truth about

 8     their work to spread.

 9             As for Reuters, a team of the Reuters agency came from Belgrade

10     and spent a month with us.  There was a large operation going on at that

11     time, the state of war had been declared, and they had received

12     permission from our top commander, from General Mladic and

13     General Milovanovic, to be there, and they were with me at the command of

14     the 2nd Krajina Corps, without any problem whatsoever.  And in order to

15     leave, they engaged me because I was already involved in that work.  They

16     hired me to work for them, and I did.  But on one condition:  That my

17     recordings and my stories go first to our television, the television of

18     Republika Srpska which was then called Banja Luka TV; and after these

19     recordings were broadcast on our TV, they were sent by link to Belgrade.

20     So that big TV was never competing with small TVs.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir, that's an answer to my question.

22             Now I'd like to move to a different topic, and that is relating

23     to organisation and arming in Bihac during 1991 and 1992.  Now in

24     paragraphs 2 to 6 of your statement, you refer to the organising and

25     arming of Muslims in Bihac during 1991 and 1992.

Page 30684

 1             Now, can we agree that members of the Serb population in Bihac

 2     were also organising and arming during 1991 and 1992?

 3        A.   As for arming, I was in Bihac.  I mean, when people felt that

 4     something unpleasant would happen -- we didn't believe it would actually

 5     be a war.  We thought it would not last very long.  I often returned to

 6     the press centre of the air force in Bihac, that is, at the JNA centre.

 7     I felt safer there with the army.  The JNA was still there then.  It was

 8     a guarantor for the constitution and Yugoslavia still existed.  I

 9     observed all of that, of course, and then I stood by them and --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please answer the question.  The question

11     is whether you agree that Serbs were arming as well in Bihac.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but probably yes,

13     both.  I mean, I know about these because some officers told me that they

14     had problems with Muslims who want to attack the barracks, to seize

15     weapons, and also there was a black market.

16             MR. JEREMY:

17        Q.   All right, sir.  I'd like to show you a document in connection

18     with your answer and maybe we can get a little bit more clarity by

19     looking at that document.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31888 on our screens.

21        Q.   Now, sir, on the screen before you is a report sent from the

22     public security station in Bihac to the CSB in Banja Luka and we can see

23     that it's dated the 13th of October, 1993.  Now, as we see from the cover

24     page, it contains information on employees of the Bihac SJB who

25     participated in preparing and organising the Serbian people before the

Page 30685

 1     war broke out.  And I'd just like to briefly refer your attention to a

 2     few parts of this document and then I'll have a couple of questions on

 3     it.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 2, please, in each language.

 5        Q.   So, sir, referring your attention to the first sentence of the

 6     first paragraph, we read that:

 7             "When the war broke out in the territory of Croatia or, to be

 8     more precise, in Plitvice on 1 April 1991, the Serbian people in the

 9     territory of Bihac municipality instinctively felt the threat posed by

10     the Ustasha and started organising themselves."

11             If we go to the second paragraph and again looking at the first

12     sentence we read:

13             "It was necessary to act in strict secrecy and illegally since

14     many Serbs had been taken in by various political parties and lived in

15     the belief that there would be no war and that the rest of the country

16     would unite in a 'new' Yugoslavia."

17             Looking at the third paragraph, sir, we read in the first

18     sentence:

19             "When the first weapons arrived in the Bihac area, they were

20     unpacked and distributed in great secrecy to civilian protection units

21     which had organised themselves illegally in the Serbian villages in Bihac

22     municipality."

23             And that paragraph goes on to discuss, a few sentences down,

24     arming during the summer of 1991 and also explains that this took place

25     away from the eyes of the public and even individual Serbs.

Page 30686

 1             I'd just like to refer you to one other part of this document.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go to page 3 in the English, please, and

 3     page 5 in the B/C/S.  And in the English, it's the penultimate paragraph,

 4     beginning:  "The month of April 1992 ..."  And in the B/C/S, it's halfway

 5     down the page.

 6        Q.   So we read:

 7             "The month of April 1992 was used to provide the Serbs with

 8     additional arms and the special role of the police officers was to

 9     provide transport and personally transport weapons.  All the approaches

10     to the town were controlled by Muslim police officers, which made the

11     Serbs more afraid.  An attempt was made to strike back at the Muslims by

12     setting up check-points manned by Serbian police officers."

13             So, Mr. Zoric, is it your position that you were not aware of the

14     organising and arming of Serbian villages in the Bihac municipality

15     during the course of 1991 and 1992, as we see described in some detail in

16     this document?

17        A.   I took an oath here that I would speak the truth.  This document

18     doesn't mean a thing to me.  I worked as a teacher in a school in Bihac.

19     I had no idea whatsoever about any of this because I never liked weapons

20     or anything like that.  The only thing that I wanted to do was to get my

21     hands on a camera so that I wouldn't have to shoot because I hate that

22     from the bottom of my heart.  This is the first time I see this.  I know

23     some of the people from this list.  I know that they worked somewhere out

24     there, but that that was done, no, I wasn't in these circles.  I spent my

25     free time in taverns, at home, in school --

Page 30687

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple question was whether you were

 2     not aware.  Where you spent your time, whether you know the people in the

 3     document, all that was not asked, so I do understand --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. JEREMY:

 9        Q.   Sir, from your answer, then, I think you'll -- well, do you allow

10     for the possibility that this organising and arming was going on but you

11     simply were not aware of it?

12        A.   I allow for that possibility.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document as a

14     Prosecution exhibit.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31888 receives Exhibit Number P7065,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to move to a different topic and that's the

21     topic of population movement.

22             Now, in paragraph 12 of your statement, you refer to Serbs

23     self-organising in Serb villages around Bihac.  And you state that the

24     population there relocated in an unorganised and uncontrolled manner.

25     Now I'd like to focus on another municipality bordering the Una river,

Page 30688

 1     namely, Bosanska Krupa, which you also discuss in your statement.

 2             Now, establishing a border on the Una river was one of the

 3     strategic objectives or goals of the Bosnian Serb and political

 4     leadership; correct?

 5        A.   Establishment of the border?  I don't know.  I was interested in

 6     how far I could go to take pictures.  I don't know anything else.  I

 7     wasn't interested in politics.  I was just interested in recording what I

 8     could report.  As for borders, believe me, I had no idea whatsoever.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, this Chamber has received evidence that six strategic

10     goals or objectives were presented by Radovan Karadzic to delegates at

11     the 16th Assembly in Sanski Most on the 12th of May, 1992.  Now, was this

12     one of the assembly sessions that you were there recording?

13        A.   I recorded that assembly.  We cameramen were allowed to go in,

14     take pictures, see who was there, and finally to wait for the end to see

15     if somebody wanted to give statements to us.  Only General Ninkovic

16     wanted to.  We stopped General Mladic as well.  He was visibly angry.  He

17     said:  I'm not saying anything.  Ask the politicians, they know

18     everything.

19             Then General Ninkovic made a statement.  I can't remember it.

20     There's no need for me to remember it, actually.  There's a recording of

21     that, so it's there.

22        Q.   Well, sir, at this session - and the Trial Chamber has received

23     this evidence - a representative of Bosanska Krupa declared that on the

24     right bank of the Una, there were no more Muslims in the Serbian

25     municipality of Bosanska Krupa.  And he went on to state that it was

Page 30689

 1     unlikely that those Muslims would have a place to return to now that

 2     President Karadzic had told the assembly the happy news that the right

 3     bank of the Una is the border of the Serbian Republic of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             Do you recall that particular speech?

 6        A.   I've already told you, I was not present during the assembly

 7     meeting.  We were waiting outside, waiting for it to finish.  This is the

 8     first time I hear of this.  I have no idea about this.

 9        Q.   Now -- but you were in Bosanska Krupa, however, and, in fact, you

10     recorded in the SDA premises there; correct?

11        A.   SDS premises, no.  I just took pictures of the positions of

12     combatants along the lines.

13        Q.   Sir, my question --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, yes, you're recorded as having asked for

15     SDA premises.  I don't know why the responded as he did.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I know what you mean.  I

17     misheard what you said.  SDS premises, yes.  I got there with my

18     colleagues from the Krupa radio and then they showed us what they had

19     seized from Muslims.  We found knives there that they called Serb

20     cutters.  Then lists of persons who were supposed to be arrested or

21     killed or whatever.  I cannot say.  I don't know.  And then other small

22     things, equipment for ...

23             MR. JEREMY:

24        Q.   Sir, so just to confirm, you were present at the SDA premises

25     making these recordings and -- that you've just referred to.

Page 30690

 1        A.   I assumed that it was the SDA before that.  I was never on the

 2     Muslim side once the war started.  I couldn't go.  Didn't dare to.

 3        Q.   What date was this that you -- that you made this film?

 4        A.   It was sometime in the summer 1992.  Now was it June or something

 5     like that ... I don't remember the date.  After all, it's been more than

 6     20 years now.

 7        Q.   Sir, this -- this Chamber has received evidence that on the

 8     22nd of May, 1992, there was an order from the president of the

 9     War Presidency in the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa to evacuate

10     the remaining Muslim population from that municipality.  And that's P7385

11     [sic].  Is this evacuation of Muslims something that you witnessed?

12        A.   The 22nd of May, 1992?  I was in Bihac.  I mean, I didn't go

13     anywhere.  Actually, I didn't even believe that there was conflict in

14     Krupa.  I don't know.  I wasn't recording anything then either.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Now, Your Honours, I'm going to move to another

17     document in connection with this.  I wonder if I should do that now

18     or ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know how much time you would need for it.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Probably more than three minutes, but not more than

21     five or six.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll just go over the 10.30 moment.  Please

23     start already.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Okay.

25        Q.   Now, sir, this decision by the Assembly of the Serbian Republic

Page 30691

 1     of Bosnia-Herzegovina that I referred to, that the Una river is an

 2     indisputable border of Republika Srpska, that was communicated to

 3     soldiers of the 2nd Krajina Corps, wasn't it?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I don't think so.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's just take a look at a document in connection with

 6     that, that you might be able to help us with.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31864.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, on your screen you is a war bulletin by the VRS,

 9     2nd Krajina Corps, and it's dated August 1992.  Is that a document that

10     you recognise?

11        A.   We did issue a war bulletin, but I don't remember this particular

12     issue or something.  We received communication from all brigades of the

13     corps and then we just put it all together, compiled it, edited it.

14     Actually, I didn't do any of that.  It was the journalists who did.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go to page 25 in the English, please, and

16     15 in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And, sir, we see at the bottom of the page that the document is

18     being -- or we see a reference to the 2nd Krajina Corps Information

19     Service.  Now, I take from -- from that it was the 2nd Krajina Corps

20     Information Service responsible for the preparation of this document,

21     yes?

22        A.   That's right.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 22 in the English and

24     13 in the B/C/S.  And in the B/C/S I'd like to focus on the text on the

25     right-hand side of the page in -- in the middle, referring to the

Page 30692

 1     SRBiH Assembly.

 2        Q.   So, sir, just very quickly, we see a reference to the

 3     SRBiH Assembly and we read that the SRBiH has unanimously reached a

 4     decision on disputable and indisputable borders of its country, and we

 5     see that indisputable borders are -- and we see a reference there to the

 6     Una river.

 7             Now, sir, this is an example of the 2nd Krajina Corps informing

 8     its soldiers about the war aims of the Serbian Republic of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

10        A.   Well, let me tell you, maybe, but I don't remember that.  I

11     wasn't really interested.  I had my own work and that's what I did.  As

12     for writing, I wasn't really very interested in that.  Wasn't interested

13     in politics either.

14        Q.   That's understood.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I would like to tender an excerpt of

16     this document.  What I'll suggest is that I create an excerpt of the

17     first page, the last page that we looked at, and this page.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we should reserve a number for it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The excerpt receives number P7066, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And would you let us know as soon as you've uploaded

21     the excerpt --

22             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  I'll do that this afternoon.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And would there be any objection, Mr. Stojanovic?

24     No objection.  Therefore, the -- P7066 is admitted into evidence.

25     Although immediately I add to this, that instruction is given to

Page 30693

 1     Madam Registrar to upload the excerpt -- to replace the text presently in

 2     e-court by the excerpt still to be uploaded, and would you then provide

 3     the number once you have uploaded it.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break.

 6             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  And, Your Honour, for planning purposes, I expect to

 8     conclude within five to ten minutes after the break.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to

12     11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the

16     courtroom.

17             Mr. Lukic, as far as the Chamber is aware, no motion was filed

18     this morning in relation to Witness Tutoric.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zoric, Mr. Jeremy will now continue his

21     cross-examination.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Zoric, I'd like to conclude today by discussing Bihac

25     and the Bihac safe area.

Page 30694

 1             Now, you discuss Bihac in your statement and you refer to your

 2     leaving Bihac in May 1992.  Now, even at that time there was a shortage

 3     of food and medicine in Bihac; correct?

 4        A.   Correct, exactly.  Shops were empty.

 5        Q.   Now, the next year, in 1993, in May, the United Nations Security

 6     Council declared Bihac a safe area; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Now, in your statement, paragraphs 38 through to 45, you make a

 9     series of observations in respect to General Mladic.  You mention that he

10     would say the civilian population and especially the weak should be

11     protected, and you conclude the section by saying that he was especially

12     sensitive to old people and children.

13             Now, in respect to Bihac, this Chamber has received evidence that

14     during the course of 1994 and 1995, General Mladic was personally warned

15     by UNPROFOR Generals Cot, de Lapresle, and Smith to stop large-scale

16     attacks on the Bihac safe area.  And that's P5186, P5193, and P792.

17             So were you aware of these attacks against the Bihac safe area in

18     1994 and 1995?

19        A.   Well, I had no way of knowing.  I wasn't planning attacks or

20     organising anything.  I just wanted to have footage that was as

21     attractive as possible and I wanted to record the actual situation as it

22     was.  I've already told you, I don't know anything about politics and I

23     was not part of those circles.

24        Q.   Sir, my question doesn't relate to politics.  My question relates

25     to military actions against the safe area of Bihac in 1994 and 1995 and

Page 30695

 1     whether you were aware of those.

 2        A.   I knew partly that Bihac was a safe area but I also have some

 3     convincing footage.  I mean, I took pictures of weapons, cannons, barrels

 4     that are lowered, cows that are grazing around these cannons, so

 5     obviously they were not operating for a while.  I have all of that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you were aware of

 7     attacks, not on whether you drew any conclusions on the basis of cows

 8     grazing there, but whether you knew anything about the attacks.  If not,

 9     please say no; if you do have, please tell us what --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.  I didn't know

11     anything about that, no.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Sir, you also say in your statement that you recorded meetings

15     between General Mladic and UNPROFOR officials and you say that

16     General Mladic would request that these meetings be videotaped.  That's

17     paragraph 20.

18             Now, this Chamber has received evidence that at one such meeting

19     between General Mladic and UNPROFOR General Rupert Smith in Vlasenica on

20     7th of March, 1995, when General Mladic was warned that an attack on an

21     UN safe area would risk a response by NATO, he responded with a tirade of

22     threats of counteraction to Mr. Smith -- to General Smith.  Now, did you

23     ever record General Mladic threatening UNPROFOR officials in this way?

24        A.   My area of movement was the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, and I

25     never recorded anything like that.

Page 30696

 1        Q.   All right, sir.  Thank you for answering my questions.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I've got no further questions.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the

 5     witness?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Honours.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zoric, the last set of questions after the

 9     break related to the fighting around Bihac, the protected area of Bihac.

10     Now, in the context of paragraph 30 of your statement, would you tell the

11     Court if you filmed and documented the attacks of the Army of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 5th Corps against the VRS from protected

13     areas?

14        A.   Yes, I did, to the extent I was able to from our side.

15        Q.   Would you tell the Court when the attacks from the protected area

16     of Bihac were the most intensive against the positions of the VRS?

17        A.   An offensive was launched towards the end of October from the

18     protected area against the Army of Republika Srpska.  I don't remember

19     exactly.  They moved in to the territory of the VRS very forcefully and

20     very quickly, including Mount Grmec, 25 kilometres deep into our

21     territory.

22        Q.   Could you tell us around what time and which area?

23        A.   October 1994, as I said.  And the first place they took was the

24     Grabez Plateau that had been held by the VRS; my native village Pritoka,

25     I filmed it as it burned including my own house on fire; and then they

Page 30697

 1     went further in the territory of Bihac up to Lipa village.  And their aim

 2     was to take control of the road towards Petrovac.

 3        Q.   Did you have occasion to see the casualties of that offensive

 4     launched from the protected area?

 5        A.   Yes, in a place called Kulen Vakuf, in Rajnovci, in Hrgari and

 6     the surrounding areas, especially in Gornji Vakuf [as interpreted], I

 7     came across very ugly things, human corpses, carcasses, houses burning.

 8        Q.   Let me finish.  My colleague tells me that on the record,

 9     page 26, line 19, there is a name of a town.  Are you talking about

10     Gornji Vakuf or Kulen Vakuf?

11        A.   Kulen Vakuf.  There are several places in Bosnia called Vakuf but

12     the one I'm talking about, the one closest to Bihac, is called

13     Kulen Vakuf.

14        Q.   To conclude, when you were mentioning the names of the commanding

15     officers and members of the 2nd Krajina Corps, do you recall who was the

16     commander of the staff headquarters at the beginning of the war in 1992

17     at the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

18        A.   I believe it was Colonel Mikan Vaso.  He occupied the position of

19     assistant commander.

20        Q.   And who was the staff commander?

21        A.   Eldar Nikanovic [as interpreted], a native of Tuzla.  He came

22     with the army from Sibenik and he's still with the army based in

23     Banja Luka.

24        Q.   What is he by ethnicity?

25        A.   A Muslim.  It's not Nikanovic.  It's Kikanovic, with a K.

Page 30698

 1        Q.   Could you just spell out the name.

 2        A.   Eldar, E-l-d-a-r, Kikanovic.

 3        Q.   On the behalf of the Defence team of General Mladic, I thank you

 4     very much for answering our questions.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have concluded my examination,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I have a few questions for you.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE ORIE:  When asked about attacks launched against the Bihac

12     safe area, you answered that you had no way of knowing, that you were not

13     planning the attacks or organising anything, that you just wanted to have

14     footage, and that your only focus was on recording what you saw.  You

15     further explained that you were not interested in politics and you were

16     not in those circles.  Then it was put to you that the question was about

17     military action, and in answer to that observation, you said:

18             "I knew partly that Bihac was a safe area, but I also have some

19     convincing footage.  I mean, I took pictures of weapons," and then you

20     continue about that.  And then I said -- asked you whether you were aware

21     of attacks rather than about cows.  And then you said:

22             "I didn't know.  I didn't know anything about that."

23             And that's what we heard you repeatedly say, that whenever it is

24     about -- whether it's arming, whether it's about attacks which, as it was

25     put to you, was committed by Serbs, you claim to have no interest

Page 30699

 1     whatsoever in those matters.  And as soon as questions are put to you

 2     about military action by the Muslims, you immediately, in great detail,

 3     tell us what you know about this.

 4             Do you have any explanation as to why you are not interested in

 5     any military matters and are only interested in getting footage if it is

 6     about Serb operations or actions; whereas, to the contrary, if it comes

 7     to Muslims' activities or operations, that you expose great interest and

 8     detailed knowledge about everything that happened.  Do you have an

 9     explanation for that?

10        A.   Well, every time they attacked, we were afraid that we would come

11     under attack too.  I knew enough about the opposite side to be afraid of

12     their attacks, and my job was to film whatever I could and as much as I

13     could.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You missed the gist of my question.  The gist of my

15     question was why you seemed to have detailed knowledge if it is about

16     action and operations against the Serbs; whereas you claim to have no

17     interest and no knowledge if it is about actions and operations by the

18     Serbs.  That was my question, not about whether you were afraid at the

19     time, but how you behaved as a witness in this courtroom.

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  I was always interested in the enemy and

21     what they would do.  The rest did not interest me.  I didn't really

22     choose where to go.  I just followed the army.  Of course, our army

23     opened fire as well.  I have recordings of that kind too.  It was trench

24     warfare.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Another question is about -- you

Page 30700

 1     explained to us there was a blockade from the United States when you had

 2     channelled your compilations to the United States.  Did you personally

 3     deal with those who were invited to broadcast your reports?

 4        A.   I didn't invite anyone to do anything.  I gave my footage to a

 5     Serb emigrant to New Jersey, and later on he told me that none of it was

 6     broadcast because nobody wanted to.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did he explain to you why that was?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't really explain.  I don't

 9     know.  For me, it was enough when he said:  I really can't find a way to

10     have it broadcast, even if I offer them money.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you concluded that this was a blockade,

12     not knowing the reasons why it was refused.  Would you agree with me that

13     there may have been -- well, whatever kind of concerns, whether it was

14     sufficiently balanced, sufficiently neutral, sufficiently of quality,

15     that may have caused anyone to not broadcast your compilation.  And

16     perhaps I add as a -- yes, sorry.

17        A.   I could agree to some extent but, really, I don't know.  I tried

18     to send footage that was convincing and good.  Now, why they refused it,

19     I really don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then one last issue.

21             You said after you had left town, six men entered your apartment.

22     That's found in your statement.  Do you remember that?

23        A.   I remember that statement.  It's my neighbour who told me that,

24     the neighbour who lived next door to me and left Bihac later.  She said:

25     It is good that you were not there.  Six armed men broke into your flat.

Page 30701

 1     What they were looking for, I have no clue.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever go back to your flat, your apartment?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go into the apartment, but

 4     I did go back to Bihac, and I'm still in touch with my old friends.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 6             Mr. Jeremy, any questions in --

 7             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Zoric, this concludes your testimony.  I'd

 9     like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague.  I also

10     thank you for the patience you had to have yesterday when we were

11     unfortunately unable to continue with your testimony.  I thank you for

12     having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the

13     parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

14     again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  Our next witness is

19     Mr. Karac, Dragan.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then now I'll use the opportunity to briefly

21     deal with the matter I started earlier, which is about the maps.

22             During the testimony of Witness Skrba in June 2014, the Chamber

23     asked the parties to provide the scale of two maps, D526 and P6599, and

24     to identify a number of locations mentioned by the witness on a map.

25             The Chamber hereby puts on the record that the parties agree that

Page 30702

 1     the red circles on maps bearing Rule 65 ter number 30976 and 30977

 2     indicate the location of Osmice.

 3             These two documents, therefore, can be admitted into evidence.

 4             Madam Registrar, could you tell us whether you had already

 5     reserved a number or whether a number still has to be assigned to these

 6     two 65 ter numbers?  Well, I've give you time.  Just check whether.

 7             Meanwhile I continue.  The parties have been unable to agree on

 8     the location of Gugine Kuce.  That's hereby on the record.  In relation

 9     to P6599, the parties have tentatively agreed that the graphic scale for

10     this map is that one grid equals 2 kilometres.

11             Could the next witness be escorted in the courtroom.

12             The lexical scale is 1 to 50.000.  In relation to D526, the

13     Prosecution submits that the lexical scale is 1 to 20.000 but cannot

14     determine on the face of the map the graphic scale.  The Defence has not

15     submitted its position.  The Chamber invites the parties to file any

16     further agreement related to these matters no later than the end of this

17     week.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Karac.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

22     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

23     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 30703

 1                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN KARAC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Karac.  Please be seated.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karac, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

 6     You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  In a minute, he will be standing.

 7     And Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic who tries to greet

 8     you, which he's supposed not to do.

 9             Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please take care that no loud

12     speaking.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Karac.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   For the record, please, could you tell us your name slowly.

19        A.   Dragan Karac.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, sorry to interrupt for you a second.

21             Mr. Mladic, you should refrain immediately from the kind of

22     communication you're seeking with the public gallery.  Therefore, you're

23     invited to not look in that direction.  If it happens again, you'll be

24     immediately removed from the courtroom.  It may help you if you turn your

25     back to the other direction.  No loud speaking either, Mr. Mladic.

Page 30704

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Karac, have you given a written statement to

 4     the Defence team of General Mladic?

 5        A.   Yes, I have.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we display on the screens

 7     1D1664, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give the number again, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  The number should be 1D1664.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you see it on the screen before you, Mr. Karac?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   That's page 1.  Do you recognise the signature here?

15        A.   Yes, it's my signature.

16        Q.   We can take a look at the last page.  On the last page, do you

17     see the signature?  Do you recognise it?

18        A.   Yes, it's my signature.

19        Q.   You've had occasion to review this statement.  Does it reflect

20     correctly what you've stated?

21        A.   Yes.  Everything is recorded precisely as I stated it.

22        Q.   Are the contents of this statement truthful and accurate, to the

23     best of your knowledge?

24        A.   Yes, I've said and described whatever I knew.

25        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you

Page 30705

 1     answer the same?

 2        A.   Yes, I would.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender Mr. Karac's statement

 4     into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Therefore, Madam Registrar, the

 6     number would be ...?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01664 receives Exhibit Number D880,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, with your leave, I would read statement

11     summary of this witness, and we will not have any questions for him.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Please proceed, as you

13     suggest.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15             Dragan Karac was a JNA reserve officer.  He was mobilised in the

16     JNA on the 30th of June, 1991, and joined the 6th Infantry Brigade of

17     Sanski Most.

18             With his unit, he stayed in Jasenovac, Croatia, until 1st April,

19     1992, after which he was transferred to Sanski Most.  The unit was

20     stationed in Lusci Palanka.  At the time of his transfer from Jasenovac

21     to Sanski Most, he saw trenches in the Muslim villages along the road

22     towards Sanski Most.  He found armed Muslim and Serb groups in and around

23     Sanski Most.  The role of his brigade was to keep the peace between the

24     opposing sides.

25             The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the

Page 30706

 1     elections, so they took over the municipal building by force, using

 2     weapons and renegade police forces composed of Muslims and the

 3     Green Berets.

 4             SDS recaptured the municipal building with the help of the SOS

 5     forces.  The members of his brigade did not participate in take-over of

 6     the municipal building.

 7             For the sake of security of the civilian population, JNA and

 8     later VRS units had to disarm the Muslim extremists who were forming

 9     check-points from which they killed soldiers and policemen.

10             Mr. Karac was transferred to the 17th Kljuc Brigade in late

11     July 1992.  He was engaged at the Bihac front in November 1992.  He

12     witnessed that after Bihac was declared a safe area, members of the B and

13     H Army often attacked VRS positions from it.

14             Mr. Karac also participated in combat operations when combined

15     Croatian-Muslim forces carried out an attack on Republika Srpska in

16     August 1995.

17             And that would be, Your Honours, the statement summary of

18     Mr. Karac.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Karac, no further questions will you put to you by the

21     Defence.  Of course, the Chamber has received your statement, so that

22     will be most likely the basis for further examination, because you'll now

23     be cross-examined by Ms. Edgerton.  You find her to your right.

24     Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the Prosecution.

25             Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

Page 30707

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 3        Q.   Mr. Karac, good morning.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Is it Karac or Karac?

 6        A.   It's a ch at the end.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I don't want to mispronounce your name.  That's why.

 8             I'd like to begin your cross-examination by getting you to

 9     confirm a couple of things about the role and the function of an

10     intelligence officer.  All right?  And I'm going to do that by showing

11     you an excerpt from a document.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 4643.  It's an excerpt from the

13     JNA manual on intelligence support to the armed forces.  And we can go

14     over in English to page 16 and B/C/S to page 21, and we're looking for

15     paragraph 11 in both languages.  Right.  Thank you.

16        Q.   So, Mr. Karac, this paragraph lists - if you can see it okay -

17     the basic intelligence support tasks in war time.  And this is

18     specifically relating to brigade-level intel operations because this is

19     excerpted from the JNA brigade rules.  All right?  So just have a look at

20     some of those tasks.  Like 11a talks about -- it says your tasks included

21     the prompt discovering of the actions and intentions of the enemy in the

22     front, in the temporarily occupied territory, and in his rear.

23             And then if in English we could go over to the next page, and

24     have a look at d, you -- part of your job is to collect intel on the

25     combat capability of your enemy.

Page 30708

 1             And then in B/C/S over to the next page.  E, their movement.  F,

 2     fire systems -- pardon me, communications, and a couple ones down is fire

 3     systems.  K, logistics.  And go all the way down to n, data about the

 4     population and material resources in enemy territory.

 5             Now I know this is it at speed, but this isn't a trick question

 6     at all.  I just want you to confirm that these were among your basic

 7     tasks as an intelligence officer; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  But let me just explain.  You said that I was a security

 9     officer.  That's what you said in your initial remarks.  However, at the

10     time, I was assistant commander -- assistant Chief of Staff for

11     intelligence affairs.  There's a difference.

12        Q.   I think there might have a might misinterpretation because my

13     words specifically spoke about intelligence, and I'm well aware of the

14     divisions between the different branches, so if we could just focus on

15     intel.

16             So can you confirm that these things that we've just listed that

17     you see in paragraph 11 were among your basic tasks as an intel officer?

18        A.   Yes, that can be confirmed.  Those were the rules of the former

19     Yugoslav People's Army.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And so if we could have that as a Prosecution

21     Exhibit, please, Your Honours, I'd appreciate that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a very long document, if I -- isn't it?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Only paragraph 11 on pages 16 and 17 in

24     English, and pages 21 and 22 in B/C/S --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And have you made --

Page 30709

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  -- please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you uploaded an excerpt which covers those

 3     pages?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Not yet but we can do it forthwith.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will reserve a number for an excerpt still

 6     to be uploaded.  Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  P7067, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is reserved and we'll wait for the upload to be

 9     reported to the Chamber.

10             Please proceed.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be appreciated if you also could upload

12     the cover page so that we know what it is about.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   So as an intel officer, your job, your core function really, is

17     to ensure intelligence support for your brigade's combat actions; right?

18        A.   Yes, my role was to collect intelligence about the enemy of my

19     army.  Of my units, I'm sorry.

20        Q.   And that involves not only continually monitoring the enemy but

21     also continually assessing the information and continually reporting on

22     it to the people who need to know; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And the people who need to know would be particularly

25     the command personnel, the Commander-in-Chief, or Chief of Staff, the

Page 30710

 1     operations units, the operations officer, the security officer, among

 2     others.  Is that a fair comment?

 3        A.   For the most part, what I knew, as far as intelligence was

 4     concerned, is what I presented to the Chief of Staff and the brigade

 5     commander.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, something else I'd like you just to confirm, and

 7     it's about the combat record of your unit and for the moment I just want

 8     to focus on the 6th Brigade.  And I'll show you a document that reports

 9     on your unit's combat records so you can follow along with me as I read

10     it.  It's P7015 MFI.  And it's a paper from Sanski Most called the

11     "Informator."  It's an SDS newspaper and it was published on Petrov Dan,

12     Saint Peter's Day, in 1992.  P7015.

13             So that's the first page.  And if we go over to pages 38 in

14     English and page 25 in your language?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you refresh our memory what day is

16     Saint Peter's Day, so that we also know it, from a calendar point of

17     view?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a saint, the Serbs celebrate

19     that saint, and that day is on the 12th of July.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Now, in B/C/S, I think you need to have a look at the third

23     paragraph from the bottom, if I'm not mistaken, on page 25.  And when we

24     begin to read, tell me if I --

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, that's correct.  And almost the penultimate

Page 30711

 1     paragraph in English.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Karac, referring to the 6th Infantry Brigade --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Could you make the third paragraph from the

 4     bottom, please, a bit bigger for Mr. Karac.

 5        Q.   This says that your brigade took part in the liberation of

 6     Bosanska Krupa; the liberation and mopping up of Hambarine, Kozarusa, and

 7     Kozarac; creating conditions for the take-over in Kljuc; confiscation of

 8     weapons across the municipality; military defeat of the Muslim extremists

 9     in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo; involvement in mopping up all areas on the left

10     bank of Una; involvement in mopping up the areas of Sanica, Krasulje,

11     Hrustovo, and Vrhpolje.

12             Now, up until July 1992, that's right, isn't it, that's an

13     accurate record of your brigade's actions?

14        A.   As for this information about the activities of the brigade, I

15     know that, but as for the rest, this is the first time I see this SDS

16     bulletin report.

17        Q.   But you don't disagree with the accuracy of the passage I've read

18     to you in terms of it being an accurate record of your brigade's combat

19     activities up till that point?

20        A.   Yes, the brigade - parts of the brigade, not the entire brigade -

21     took part in disarming paramilitary units of the Muslims in these areas

22     that you mentioned.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, more was read to you.  It was specific

24     areas, specific activities.  Do you disagree with that more detailed

25     description of the operations the brigade had been involved in?

Page 30712

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just confirm this part that

 2     has to do with the activities of the brigade, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's all about the brigade.

 4             Could a printout be made -- no, we don't have -- could you read

 5     it again.  Could you read it again, Ms. Edgerton, so -- and take it step

 6     by step to see whether the witness has any reason to disagree.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  No problem.

 8        Q.   This document says:

 9             "The brigade has participated in the following operations:  The

10     liberation of Bosanska Krupa."

11             Is that correct, Mr. Karac?

12        A.   That is not correct.

13        Q.   Are you saying that your brigade didn't take part in the

14     liberation of Bosanska Krupa?

15        A.   Yes, my brigade did not take part in the liberation of

16     Bosanska Krupa.  That was this so-called take-over of power.

17        Q.   Right.  We'll come back to that.  I'll continue:

18             "The liberation and cleansing of Hambarine, Kozarusa and

19     Kozarac."

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Edgerton, it says in the English translation

21     "mopping up" instead of --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- "cleansing."

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.  Yes, "the liberation and mopping up,"

25     yes, correct.  I apologise, Your Honour.

Page 30713

 1        Q.   Can you confirm that your brigade took part in the liberation and

 2     mopping up of Hambarine, Kozarusa, and Kozarac?

 3        A.   I know of Hambarine, and I think it was Kozarac, near Prijedor.

 4        Q.   And I assume you take no issue, because you spoke about it in

 5     your written evidence, that your brigade took part in the creation of

 6     conditions for the take-over in Kljuc?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And, again, since you spoke of it in your written evidence, you

 9     can confirm that your brigade took part in the military defeat of Muslim

10     extremists in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo?

11        A.   Yes, the brigade took part in the fighting -- actually, parts of

12     the 6th Brigade took part in the battles for Hrustovo and Vrhpolje, in

13     the disarming of Muslim extremists.

14        Q.   The next sentence reads:

15             "Involving [sic] in mopping up all the areas on the left bank of

16     the Una."

17             Correct?

18        A.   I don't know about that.  I am not aware of that.

19        Q.   "Involvement in mopping up areas of Sanica, Krasulje, Hrustovo,

20     and Vrhpolje."

21             Correct?

22        A.   Yes, it took part in these operations.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Your Honour, I realise -- I see that this

25     document, P7015, is marked for identification and I don't believe that

Page 30714

 1     this page that I've read this excerpt from is included in that exhibit

 2     yet.  I wonder if it can be added, and then we'll address Your Honours

 3     eventually more fully on the complete number of pages we might want to

 4     add.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do not know whether under that number we have

 6     at this moment have an extract or if it's the whole document.  Because if

 7     it is the whole document, then of course this is part of it as well.  But

 8     I do understand that you want to make a further selection and that the

 9     Defence will be in a position to add whatever they think we would need

10     for contextualising the portions selected by the Prosecution.

11             Therefore, we'll -- it remains to be MFI'd and this then will be

12     part of your selection.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Perfect.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Karac, you mentioned you actually took issue with the

16     assertion in this document that your brigade had participated in the

17     liberation of Bosanska Krupa.  I just want to take this document away and

18     show you another one, then, P3916 [Realtime transcript read in error

19     "P3196"].

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you say the number again, please.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  P3916.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  It's a document dated --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please say it again.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  P3916.

Page 30715

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Please say it again.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- apparently there is a -- I don't know

 3     what explains it but apparently there's some problem in having "3916" on

 4     the record.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is on the record now, page 43, line 25, we have

 7     it correctly there.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   So, Mr. Karac, you've had a chance to have a look at this

11     document.  Just go down to the very last paragraph of this document which

12     is dated 11 May 1992 and it's a response to a request and it's directed

13     to the commander of your brigade.  So if your brigade, as you say, didn't

14     take part in the liberation of Bosanska Krupa, what's General Talic doing

15     taking this opportunity to pay tribute to and congratulate all the

16     soldiers of your brigade, and the commander personally, for the

17     successfully completed task of liberating the town of Bosanska Krupa?

18        A.   I've already told you that the brigade participated in this

19     so-called take-over of power.  That is probably considered to be

20     liberation.  I'm not aware of anything else but that.

21             Now, I mean, whether there was something else as well, I cannot

22     confirm that for you.  Indeed, this is the first time I'm seeing this

23     document.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on.  Just a couple of other details I want

25     to get you to confirm or to maybe augment a little bit your written

Page 30716

 1     evidence.

 2             You talk about your brigade's arrival in Sanski Most in

 3     April 1992.  Can you confirm you arrived there with about a thousand men

 4     in the brigade?

 5        A.   I cannot confirm that for you.  I don't think that there were a

 6     thousand men in the brigade then when returning from Jasenovac.

 7        Q.   Well, how many do you think there were?

 8        A.   I know that approximately -- I mean, the number was growing every

 9     day, so the information changed.  It's possible that there were a

10     thousand.  I don't know.  I really don't know.  I cannot give you an

11     accurate figure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  It's time for the morning break.  I apologise for

14     not noticing that, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, we'll keep an eye on the clock.

16             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes when we'll

17     continue.  You may follow the usher.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be brought

23     in, two short matters.  I think the documents I referred to earlier, that

24     is, 65 ter 30976, no number has been assigned yet.

25             Madam Registrar.

Page 30717

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30976 receives Exhibit Number P7068,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there no objection against it being a

 4     P number, admitted into evidence.

 5             30977.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives Exhibit Number P7069, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P7069 is admitted.  Now I'm -- let me just see ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Similarly, Your Honours, can I just advise that

11     the excerpts from 65 ter number 4643 have now been uploaded as 4643a.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think that we reserved a number already.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that number was?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P7067, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P7067 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  And just on behalf of my colleague Mr. Jeremy,

18     similarly the excerpts from 65 ter number 31864 have now been uploaded as

19     31864a, and a provisional number for those was assigned as P7066.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we admitted it already and we instructed

21     Madam Registrar to replace the new -- the old uploaded document by the

22     new one.  Therefore there's no need to further decide on the matter and

23     this instruction still stands.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now informed that it has been uploaded.

Page 30718

 1             Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Just to start up again, Mr. Karac, I'd just like to ask you:

 4     Have you ever met General Mladic before?

 5        A.   Yes, I did meet several -- General Mladic several times.

 6        Q.   And when was the first time you met General Mladic?

 7        A.   I think that the first time I met General Mladic was at the Bihac

 8     front in 1994.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So you've never met with General Mladic before 1994; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Perfect, thank you.  Now just to go back to your statement.  You

13     said at paragraph 4 on B/C/S page 2 --

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps if we could show Mr. Karac D880 again.

15     B/C/S page 3.  English page 2, pardon me.

16        Q.   What you said there was -- you talked about the establishment of

17     the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly and when the SDS took power in the

18     town.  You mentioned some fighting between Serbian representatives and

19     the government.  And then you said:

20             "The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the

21     elections, so they took over the municipal building by force, using

22     weapons and renegade forces composed of Muslims and Green Berets."

23             So when you refer to the Muslims losing the elections, are you --

24     do we understand you right that you're talking about the multi-party

25     elections in November 1990?

Page 30719

 1        A.   Yes, that's when the SDS had a majority, at those elections.

 2        Q.   So your evidence is that because the SDS won the elections

 3     about -- more than a year earlier, the Muslims took over the municipality

 4     building in April 1992; right?  Because that's what your statement says.

 5        A.   Yes.  I mean, they took the municipality building and that's

 6     where they stayed and they didn't want to leave.  The Serb

 7     representatives of government could not enter the building, the

 8     municipality building.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you missed the gist of the question.  The

10     question was whether it was because they had lost the elections, that

11     that is what is explains that more than one and a half year later they

12     took control of the municipality building.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really wouldn't know

14     what the motives were of the Muslim representatives, why they were in the

15     building of the municipal assembly then, and why they didn't allow the

16     Serb representatives to enter the municipality building.  I really

17     wouldn't know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at the same time, your statement suggests that

19     it was because they had lost the elections, where it reads:

20             "The Muslims were dissatisfied because they had lost the

21     elections, so they took over the municipal building by force ..."

22             That suggests that that's the reason why.

23             Listen carefully to the next question that Ms. Edgerton will put

24     to you.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 30720

 1        Q.   So the fact that the non-Serb police had been dispossessed of the

 2     SUP on the order of the municipality president, Nedeljko Rasula, had

 3     nothing do with the Muslim move into the municipality building.  Is that

 4     what you're saying?

 5        A.   I really can't confirm.  I just don't have any relevant facts to

 6     explain it.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   Well, were you -- were you there in the town of Sanski Most at

 8     the time that this happened?

 9        A.   No, I was not in Sanski Most.  The command of my brigade was in

10     Luska Palanka.

11        Q.   So when you say that Muslims took over the municipal building by

12     force, that's not because you saw any of it at all; right?

13        A.   I didn't see it, really.  That's something I heard.

14        Q.   And when you said in paragraph 5 of your written evidence that:

15             "The members of my brigade did not participate in occupying the

16     municipal building," is that also something you didn't see but you only

17     heard?

18        A.   I know, and I heard, where different parts of my brigade were

19     located.  I know for a fact they did not take part in this.

20        Q.   Well, then you would know for a fact that what they did do was

21     secure the area all around the municipality building and other local

22     institutions to allow for other forces, Serb forces, to take them over.

23        A.   I don't know about that, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Well, I want to show you another document.  It's P3294.  It's the

25     diary of Mr. Rasula, who I just spoke about.  And in this diary he has

Page 30721

 1     noted a lot of discussions and minutes and decisions that were taken by

 2     members of the Crisis Staff that he was a member of around this time.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go to English page 19 and B/C/S

 4     page 16.

 5        Q.   And the page in your language, Mr. Karac, I want you to go on the

 6     right-hand side and just have a look at the top of the page on the

 7     right-hand side.  There's a heading there that says:  "Course of action

 8     in taking over power and establishing the Serbian municipality of

 9     Sanski Most."  And right below it, there's a date, and it says 14 April.

10     And --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1992.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  1992.

13        Q.   And it refers after that to a session of the Municipal Board of

14     the Serbian Democratic Party being held on that day, and a number of

15     things being decided.  And the decisions are on the page that are in --

16     that's in front of you in your language but we'll need to go over to the

17     next page to look at those decisions.

18             So, in English, they're at the top of the page, numbers 1 to 4.

19     And you see them, too.  The decisions are to conclude negotiations with

20     the SDA about the division of the municipality, that police forces

21     declare their loyalty to the Serb republic and acceptance of Serbian

22     symbols and insignia, and that any possibility of opposition or

23     intervention on behalf of the adversary be thwarted.

24             If we go to the bottom of the page that your language --

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, I think we need to go to the top of the

Page 30722

 1     page 17 in B/C/S and on to page 21 in -- sorry, no, stay on page -- the

 2     present page in English.

 3        Q.   You see that -- the notation that:  Security measures to

 4     forestall any resistance by the opposite side are given below.  And then

 5     if we go over to point number 2 in English - next page - the security

 6     measures are set out.  A platoon of reservists from the 6th Krajina

 7     Brigade are going to secure and control the bridge, the square, the park,

 8     the municipal building, and the post office.  And then further, at b

 9     there's some tasks for the police that are set out, and at c, some tasks

10     fort Territorial Defence units.

11             Now, you agreed that your job as an intel officer was to keep

12     your command organs constantly updated on the situation.  Now, three days

13     before the Muslims even entered the Sanski Most building, five days

14     before the forces that you don't know anything about attacked it, here's

15     a detailed plan for the Serb take-over of Sanski Most involving forces of

16     your brigade.  So you must have been a very bad intelligence officer if

17     you didn't know anything about this plan for action.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Where it says that this was enforced, and is it the

21     position of the Prosecution that the Crisis Staff was commanding by JNA

22     units at that time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is a mixed objection and comment.

24             If there's any problem with putting a text to the witness,

25     Ms. Edgerton, if there's any dispute about that, please read to him

Page 30723

 1     exactly what you wanted to draw his attention to.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I think I have done that, with respect,

 3     Your Honours.  I've read everything that I've wanted the witness to have

 4     a look at.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, then, one second.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  If I may clarify.  My objection was:  Is there any

 8     proof that this was enforced or this is only on the paper of the Crisis

 9     Staff.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's a question.  That's a question which,

11     of course, does not need to appear from the document.  It is -- if you

12     say you write a book, the question is did you sell it, that means that,

13     of course, the book itself wouldn't tell you that it was sold.  It's just

14     a question.  There's no reason to object.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, the question is about the knowledge

16     about this plan for action, about this plan, not about enforcement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Ms. Edgerton asked whether this gentleman agrees that

19     it was his job as intelligence officer to keep his command organs

20     constantly updated on the situation.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not the question.  Look at the last two

22     lines of her question:

23             "So you must have been very bad intelligence officer if you

24     didn't know anything about this plan for action."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the objection is denied.  May that be clear.

Page 30724

 1             Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  I'd just like to -- I'm trying to find

 3     the cite on the transcript where the gentleman, Mr. Karac, discussed his

 4     basic tasks in war time.  If I could just have a moment, just to make

 5     things perhaps a bit easier, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Mr. Karac, you confirmed at temporary transcript page 39 that

 7     your role was to collect intelligence about the enemy of your army, of

 8     your units.  And then my question was:

 9             "And that involves not only continually monitoring the enemy but

10     also continually assessing the information and continually reporting on

11     it to people who need to know; right?"

12             And you said:  "Yes."

13             So given that answer, I'd like you to have a think about the

14     question I asked about this plan of action.  If this was your job, how

15     can you claim you didn't know?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  It should be established first whether

17     his job was to monitor Crisis Staff.  Was it an enemy?  I don't

18     understand at all how --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we're not --

20             MR. LUKIC:  -- those two could be connected.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not -- we're not discussing at this moment the

22     questions, neither are we discussing the meaning of those words.  You can

23     do that in re-examination.  The objection is denied.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, this gentleman was intelligence officer,

25     not security officer.

Page 30725

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- I said the objection is denied, Mr. Lukic.

 2     That's a ruling.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   Can you answer my question, Mr. Karac, please.

 6        A.   Excuse me.  I really don't know about these tasks of the

 7     Crisis Staff.  How would I?  Now, whether a platoon of reservists of the

 8     6th Krajina Brigade protected and controlled the bridge on the

 9     Sana river, I don't know.  The commander probably decided to protect the

10     safety of his unit.  Because it was quite to be expected at the time that

11     the enemy would try to destroy the bridge.  I don't know whether it was

12     really in the context of the Crisis Staff as the text says.

13        Q.   Well, let's just flip over to page 22 in English.  A meeting

14     started on 20 April 1992, and I'll try to find the B/C/S page.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.  I think it's

16     page 18 -- no, 22 in B/C/S, I think.  21.  Please go one page back to the

17     page bearing the number R1091614.

18             Now, if it takes too long, I'll come back to it after our break,

19     Your Honour, so we can move on and take advantage of the time, but I will

20     come back to that.

21        Q.   I want to move on, Mr. Karac, to talk about the disarming

22     operations you -- you discuss in your written evidence.  You talked about

23     two locations, Mahala and Hrustovo.  First of all, you would agree with

24     me that Mahala is a Muslim suburb of the town of Sanski Most; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 30726

 1        Q.   And it's a residential area.  People lived there before the war;

 2     right?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Right.  Now, in your statement, in your written evidence, at

 5     paragraph 11, you talked about -- you talked in more detail about Mahala

 6     and you said you weren't present when Mahala was disarmed.  Where were

 7     you in May 1992 during the course of the operation against Mahala?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly where I was at that time.  But when I was

 9     talking about that and saying that I was not present during the mopping

10     up of Mahala, I meant that I was not physically there.  Now where I was,

11     I really can't remember now.  Maybe I was in a different part of the

12     front line or something.  I really don't know.

13        Q.   Well, if you weren't physically there, how do you know that the

14     army issued a call to surrender weapons?

15        A.   More than once the brigade command issued appeals for people to

16     surrender their weapons, and they set deadlines.  A number of Muslims

17     surrendered their weapons; others didn't.  And then the disarming

18     operation began.

19        Q.   Okay.  But you didn't quite answer my question.  I asked how you

20     knew.

21        A.   I knew because there was talk about it in the brigade command.

22     Every time an operation was finished, people discussed how it had

23     developed and what had been going on that day in the unit.

24        Q.   Have you heard those radio announcements that you specifically

25     referred to?

Page 30727

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   So you would know that those -- there wasn't just one, there

 3     wasn't just two, but the call to surrender by the army was continuous.

 4     It was going on all the time.  You would know that; right?

 5        A.   I don't know how many times the announcement was made at

 6     Radio Sanski Most.  But, yes, they were made.  I heard them several

 7     times.

 8        Q.   Well --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I get some clarification from the witness.

10             Witness, you just said that you heard about this call to

11     surrender because it was being discussed after the operation; people were

12     talking about it in the brigades.  Now, you say you heard the

13     announcements being made.  Which of the two is actually correct?  Did you

14     hear the announcements, or did you hear from discussions after the

15     operation?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both are true.  I

17     heard announcements on the radio, on the one hand; and on other hand, I

18     got more information in the brigade command after operations were

19     completed.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] All right.  Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   So having heard some of those radio announcements, you would have

23     heard the broadcasts that Sanski Most was a Serbian town --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the witness does not receive

25     interpretation.  Could you --

Page 30728

 1             MR. LUKIC:  The translator cannot turn on his microphone, I can

 2     see.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, it seems that the -- I see from the red

 4     light that the microphone is functional again.  I'll switch off my

 5     microphone.

 6             Please proceed.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MS. EDGERTON:

 9        Q.   So you would --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Still the microphone of the

11     interpreters' booth is not functioning properly.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for a technician to resolve the problem

14     and we should have some patience.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  I have it now again.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   So had you -- if you'd heard those broadcasts -- oh, still

19     nothing.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's again not working.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  How frustrating for our colleagues.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I checked already but I think there are no

23     unnecessary microphones open.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Unfortunate that no technicians have arrived

25     yet -- oh, wonderful.

Page 30729

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw that a technician was at the door-step of the

 2     booth.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that the functioning of the microphone is

 5     on and off.  I now see that it is functioning.  I'll switch off my

 6     microphone.  If after that you would switch on yours, Ms. Edgerton, then

 7     we perhaps have a chance of success.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  All right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, is there any way you could use another

10     socket or other microphone?  Because it may -- your microphone may

11     interfere with the other one.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The technician should stay in the booth until the

13     problem is resolved fully.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  It's not, I believe, in our booth.  It's

15     somewhere else.  So we will have to see where exactly it is, and the

16     technician needs to go and see that.  Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Having heard these radio announcements -- my --

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Mr. Karac still can't hear me speak in his own

20     language.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you now.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   So you would have heard then that Sanski Most was a Serbian town

24     and people were being called on to hand over their weapons or face

25     destruction.  You would have heard that; right?

Page 30730

 1        A.   I didn't hear that.  I knew that Sanski Most was not a Serbian

 2     place.  I knew that Muslims lived in Sanski Most.  In what percentage, I

 3     don't know.

 4        Q.   Well, did you hear that people were being called on to hand over

 5     their weapons voluntarily or face destruction?

 6        A.   I never heard appeals to kill or destroy people.  I heard about

 7     surrendering weapons.

 8        Q.   Do you exclude the possibility that it happened?

 9        A.   I can't rule out that possibility, Your Honours.  It might have

10     happened, but if it did, it was only individual cases.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there may be some confusion.

12             You were asked about whether you heard the announcement on the

13     radio.  Then you were asked whether you then also heard that it was

14     broadcasted that people were called on to hand over their weapons

15     voluntarily or face destruction.  You said you never heard appeals of

16     this kind.  And then when you answered the question about whether you

17     could exclude the possibility that it happened, "it" not being very

18     clear, but apparently Ms. Edgerton referring to the use of this language

19     in the calls made by the radio, you answered:

20             "It might have happened, but if it did, it was only individual

21     cases."

22             The question simply is:  When listening to these call-ups, did

23     you hear the threatening language as was put to you by Ms. Edgerton?

24     That's the first question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after the appeal by

Page 30731

 1     the brigade command, one part of the population left the area.  So one

 2     part of the weaponry --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what -- no, that's not what I'm asking.

 4     I'm asking whether you heard this language that they would face

 5     destruction if they would not hand over their weapons.  Did you hear that

 6     language being broadcasted?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that members of the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska would disarm these units.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, apparently for one reason or another, you don't

10     want to address the question I put to you.  Did you hear that when people

11     were called up to hand over their weapons, that it was added that if they

12     would not voluntarily do so, that they would face destruction.  Did you

13     hear that as part of the announcement?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All those who did not hand in their

15     weapons were a legitimate target.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apparently the witness is not answering my

17     question, for one reason or another.  Therefore, this will affect, of

18     course, the probative value of his evidence.

19             Last time:  Did you hear, when you listened to the broadcast,

20     that where they were invited to hand over their weapons, that if they

21     would not voluntarily do so, that they would have to face - what was

22     it? - destruction?  Did you hear that to be said on the radio?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot now give you the exact

24     quotation of the radio announcement, but I can confirm from the military

25     point of view that armed people for us were legitimate targets to

Page 30732

 1     destroy.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we're not talking about targets.  We are

 3     talking about what was broadcasted.

 4             Now, you said you don't remember exactly.  Can you exclude that

 5     such language was used over the radio when people were called upon to

 6     hand over their weapons?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't say any more.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12        Q.   I noticed, Mr. Karac, in your statement that when you talked

13     about Mahala, you omitted to mention that units of your brigade shelled

14     Mahala after the radio announcements that we're talking about, didn't

15     you?

16        A.   Could you please repeat that question.

17        Q.   You omitted to mention, when talking about Mahala, that units of

18     your brigade shelled it after the radio announcements we're talking

19     about.  You omitted it; right?

20        A.   As far as I know, I know there was shelling, and from what I

21     heard from my colleagues at the command, the shells did not land on the

22     inhabited area.

23        Q.   So you're confirming now that units of the 6th Brigade, your

24     brigade, shelled Mahala; right?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

Page 30733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It's exactly the opposite what the witness already

 3     said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the witness only said that they did not land on

 5     the inhabited area.  Now, that's -- again, you can further explore that

 6     matter in re-examination.  The objection is denied.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   I just want to be precise.  It's -- we're talking about units of

 9     the 6th Brigade that shelled; right?

10        A.   Yes, there were a couple of shells that fell, but I repeat:  The

11     shells did not land on the inhabited area.  They did not fall on

12     buildings.  It was more of a warning to people to hand in their weapons,

13     to disarm paramilitary formations.

14        Q.   So you have no knowledge of the fact that civilians were killed

15     in Mahala as a result of this shelling, do you?

16        A.   I don't have such information.  Or, rather, I don't know about

17     anything like that.

18        Q.   You know, however, that your brigade, units of your brigade,

19     entered Mahala after this shelling; right?

20        A.   Yes, units entered Mahala after that shelling, yes.

21        Q.   So -- and as intel officer you would also know that once your

22     units entered Mahala, they arrested people in huge numbers; right?  You

23     know that.

24        A.   As far as I know, some of these people were arrested, and that

25     was done by the security organs.

Page 30734

 1        Q.   In fact, the numbers arrested were extraordinary.  There was

 2     around 2.000 civilians who were taken out of Mahala once units of your

 3     brigade had entered; right?

 4        A.   I know that before the operation -- well, I don't know what the

 5     exact number is, but I know that before the operation, a certain number,

 6     and there were several hundreds civilians that had left the area, I mean,

 7     Mahala ...

 8        Q.   But you're the intel officer, so your job is to get intelligence

 9     on enemy activities for your units, and one of the ways you do that is by

10     interrogating people that your forces had detained.  So you -- you can't

11     tell us how many people were arrested following the take-over of Mahala?

12        A.   I really don't know, Your Honours.  I really don't know.

13        Q.   But I put the number to you of around 2.000 people.  That's a

14     huge logistical concern.  You would have had to mobilise resources to

15     conduct the interrogations you needed to do to brief your commander, and

16     you now don't know how many people came into your custody?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Again there is mixing between

18     intelligence and security.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no mixing --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Ms. Edgerton said "you" -- she should first ask this

21     gentleman whether he interrogated anybody and whether it was his job,

22     whether it was his duty.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's suggested and that is permissible in

24     cross-examination.  You may suggest these kind of things.  That's what we

25     call leading questions.  And if you disagree, then you can re-visit the

Page 30735

 1     matter in re-examination.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  This was without foundation, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that is what is allowed in

 4     cross-examination.  Please try to understand the difference.  Of course,

 5     there's no basis for it.  You suggest something to a witness and then you

 6     ask the witness to confirm or not, and that's exactly the difference.

 7     But we may have noticed that earlier that you're not fully aware of what

 8     the difference is between examination-in-chief in which leading questions

 9     are not allowed, where a basis has to be laid, compared to leading

10     questions in cross-examination.

11             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Do you want me to repeat my question?

14        A.   I think I've answered that question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is your answer that you were not aware of this huge

16     number of people being arrested?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the number, but

18     I know that people had been arrested, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you have no idea whether it was 2, or 500,

20     or 10.000?  You had no idea about how many had been arrested?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said, Your Honour,

22     that I don't know the exact number, whether it was 50, 100, 150, I really

23     don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then give us the approximate number.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't want to say

Page 30736

 1     anything that was not true.  Believe me, I don't know exactly what number

 2     it might be.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were to say anything --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the problem is that Ms. Edgerton has

 6     difficulties in understanding that you, in your position, had no

 7     knowledge whatsoever about numbers, where, as she suggests to you, it

 8     would have had perhaps quite an impact on the job you were doing.  That's

 9     the issue.

10             Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Just to finish up with Mahala, Mr. Karac, in fact, the operation

13     to mop up, to disarm the settlement of Mahala was a planned and

14     co-ordinated operation that didn't only touch on that area but a number

15     of non-Serb areas.  That's the truth of the matter, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes, that's what the situation was.  And as for all of these

17     activities that were being carried out, they had all been planned.

18        Q.   Right.  And the operation was so effective and the devastation in

19     Mahala was so serious that the situation was actually used as -- as a

20     threat for remaining Muslim-held areas, wasn't it?  People were given the

21     choice:  Surrender or face the same situation that Mahala did.

22        A.   I don't know.  I mean, I don't know how Muslims understood it at

23     that point.  Probably that way, but I really don't know.  I mean, whether

24     they understood our action then as some kind of a threat so that others

25     would do -- well, later on, it turned out that it wasn't that way.

Page 30737

 1             According to some information, part of these people from Mahala

 2     withdrew towards Hrustovo and Vrhpolje.  Now what the number was, I

 3     really don't know.  However, people were saying that between 150 and

 4     200 people returned to Vrhpolje and Golaja.

 5        Q.   Well, you know, Mr. Karac, this Chamber has received the

 6     recordings of the radio broadcasts we've been discussing, and, in fact,

 7     the -- there was nothing unclear about the message to the Muslims, and I

 8     want to have a look at one of them.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  It's P3301, please.  Now, I want to go to B/C/S

10     page 3 and English page 3, in fact.  And in -- hmm.  Your indulgence for

11     a moment.  Apologies.  Could we go to 3302.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have the feeling that you were looking at the

13     English part.  It's on top of the page which is currently on the screen,

14     aren't you?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  For another purpose.  And I'm not able to find the

16     B/C/S immediately.  But perhaps we could go to 3302 and I have the --

17     mm-hm.  And, again, your indulgence for a moment.

18             Let's go to English page 7 and B/C/S page 11.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, I want to direct you to the commentary by the female voice

20     which begins on page 7 and runs over to page 8.  But what this woman says

21     to the people who are listening to the broadcast is that:

22             "Your resistance will force us to destroy and devastate your

23     villages which means that you will not be able to live with us in these

24     territories.  And if you" --

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Have to go over to the next page in B/C/S.

Page 30738

 1        Q.   "If you do want to go on living with us in these territories,

 2     accept co-operation and hand over all the weapons and military equipment

 3     and surrender to the Serbian authorities all the extremists who force to

 4     you fight."

 5             And then there's a list of villages a little bit further down the

 6     page who are called to surrender their weapons.  And -- among them

 7     Vrhpolje and Hrustovo.  But at the very sentence following that list of

 8     names, there's one more reminder to the non-Serbs:

 9             "Again, we call on you to be sensible and ask the inhabitants to

10     respond to this call.  If not, we will be forced to act as we did with

11     Mahala."

12             So, Mr. Karac, the message was very clear:  The choice was to

13     surrender and pledge allegiance to a mono-ethnic Serbian authority or

14     face destruction.  That was the choice the non-Serbs at Sanski Most had

15     to make, wasn't it?

16        A.   The Muslim population kept part of the -- actually, part of the

17     paramilitary formations kept their weapons and uniforms, and they had

18     clashed with the Army of Republika Srpska.  The Army of Republika Srpska

19     responded to this provocation or, rather, disarmed these paramilitary

20     formations.

21             Now, I mean, whether they had a choice.  Well, probably.  I mean,

22     to hand over their weapons and to leave as free citizens or to clash.  We

23     all know what an armed clash entails and what the consequences of an

24     armed clash are.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, is an armed clash automatically that villages

Page 30739

 1     will be destroyed and devastated?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends, Your Honour, on

 3     the intensity of combat and what kind of enemy is there.  So if the enemy

 4     is better fortified, then targets will be selected.  So it's not the same

 5     when one uses heavy weaponry and artillery or just side-arms.  That's the

 6     intensity that I'm talking about.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's not what the broadcast says.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  It's time for the next break, I think,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow

13     the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

19     courtroom.

20             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber takes it when you said that this morning

21     you complained when you were at the Registry that it was not a complaint

22     against the Registry.  Not them to blame for --

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, it's not complaint about --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's how --

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- the Registry.  It's about our database, about our

Page 30740

 1     records.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not complaint --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's well understood.  That's hereby on the

 5     record.  And then rather than to express your problems to the Registry

 6     perhaps --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry if I created any confusion.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you have organised your team well, then

 9     even you don't have to inform the Registry about your concerns.  We leave

10     it to that.

11             There was one other matter.  You intervened when Ms. Edgerton was

12     asking questions about what was ordered and you said, well, he is an

13     intelligence officer not a security officer, which suggests that the

14     logic and the formal definitions are always guiding.  Again, you can

15     explore that in re-examination.  But if I see that the Municipal Board of

16     a party decides on how to instruct the army, then perhaps the formal

17     lines are not always as clear as in practice.

18             Therefore, again, no problem with examining the witness on that

19     but it was not a reason to intervene in this specific context.

20             Let's proceed.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   Mr. Karac, just to finish up with Mahala.  Just before we broke,

24     you were explaining to Judge Orie about the intensity of combat and what

25     kind of enemy is there, and made the observation that if the enemy is

Page 30741

 1     better fortified, then targets would be selected.  But just bringing that

 2     whole discussion back to Mahala, in fact, any forces that might have

 3     been, any Bosnian forces that might have been in Mahala were completely

 4     outmatched by the strength of your unit and their weaponry.  Isn't that

 5     the case?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it the position of the Prosecution that there

 8     were Bosnian army soldiers in Mahala at the time?  Or is it just a

 9     supposition, a hypothetical question?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm not able to give Your Honours an immediate

11     answer on this, but I'll be able to do that forthwith.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  And if could you indulge me for a moment, I seem

14     to have plugged into some non-working microphones in here and I would

15     like to be able to just take full part in this.

16        Q.   What I'd like to do is move on to another area you talked about

17     in your written evidence and that's about the disarming, because that's

18     what you called it, of Hrustovo.  Now Hrustovo is another Muslim area of

19     Sanski Most; right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   And now, once again, when you refer to "the army," like you did

22     at paragraph 13 of your written evidence, and I'll read you exactly what

23     you said.  You said:

24             "When the army approached Hrustovo in combat formation just

25     before it entered Hrustovo, the army came under fire, and when the army

Page 30742

 1     was attacked there was an exchange of fire," and so forth.

 2             So here when you refer to "the army," do you mean again to refer

 3     to units of your brigade, the 6th?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely, I meant that, precisely.

 5        Q.   Now, when you discussed Hrustovo, what I also noticed was you

 6     omitted to mention -- you omitted to mention that 1st -- soldiers of your

 7     brigade, 1st Infantry Brigade soldiers, went in and killed women and

 8     children who had taken refuge inside a garage in Hrustovo.  You omitted

 9     that, didn't you?

10        A.   I don't know about that.  Had I known, I would have said that.

11        Q.   So you have no knowledge about the fact that soldiers of your

12     unit stood in front of the garage and opened up with automatic

13     machine-guns and threw hand-grenades into the garage and killed

14     civilians.  Is that what you're telling us?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Asked and answered.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may answer the question again.  In

17     cross-examination you can sometimes put a question twice.

18             Please proceed.  Did you -- did you -- your evidence is that you

19     had no knowledge about what was described by Ms. Edgerton?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know, I mean, but

21     I don't rule out the possibility that that did happen.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You also never learned later that that may have

23     happened?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't interested in that.  I

25     was involved in a different unit so that stayed that way, unresolved.

Page 30743

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   And Hrustovo is the one place where you were actually personally

 3     on scene, right?  Because that's what we can understand from your written

 4     evidence.

 5        A.   I was not on the actual front line with the soldiers.  I was part

 6     of the brigade command.  Because, at that time, as far as I can remember,

 7     I was in Tomina, in the village of Tomina.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'd look to move to another area and it's actually

 9     the final area.  And I want to do that, I want to start telling you about

10     an event on 14 May 1992.  Now, on that day in Kljuc, there was a big

11     political military meeting.  And General Galic was there, your commander,

12     Basara was there, and there were municipal heads from all the

13     municipalities covered by a larger area that represented the area of

14     responsibility of the 30th Infantry Division.

15             Now, at that meeting, all the participants were briefed about the

16     strategic objectives that had been announced by President Karadzic at the

17     Bosnian Serb Assembly two days previously.  And you know about that

18     meeting, don't you?

19        A.   Yes, I know about that meeting.

20        Q.   And that's because you were there; right?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   And so since you were there, you can confirm that -- actually,

23     I'll do this another way.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's have a look, then, at 65 ter number 31874.

25        Q.   How big was the meeting?  And where was it held?

Page 30744

 1        A.   I think it was held in the building of the Municipal Assembly of

 2     Kljuc where I was present, myself, for a while.  Part of that meeting,

 3     that is.  Since Colonel Basara took me along, since I am from Kljuc, so

 4     that I could see my family at the same time.  So that is the reason why I

 5     was in Kljuc.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, let's go over in the B/C/S which happens to

 7     be on the left-hand side, although what you see is in English, over to, I

 8     think, page 3, please.

 9        Q.   So what you see in front of you is a JNA military notebook.  And

10     you're familiar with these, aren't you?  Every officer had one of these;

11     right?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And they're --

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   They're official books; right?

16        A.   Yes.  Official books that every officer had and the number of

17     pages was certified on the last page, and then these notebooks were

18     returned to the organ that they had originally been received from.  When

19     it is completed, then the notebook has to be returned.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go over to the next page in B/C/S, please.

21        Q.   This is your notebook, isn't it?  That's your name in your

22     handwriting.

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  So let's go over in this B/C/S book to pages --

25     page 66.  And we don't actually need to move at all in English.  But

Page 30745

 1     perhaps you can enlarge the right-hand side of page 66 so Mr. Karac can

 2     see his own notes.

 3        Q.   So, Mr. Karac, here's your notes of the meeting that you were at.

 4     Actually, you have it noted as being the 13th of July, 1995, and not the

 5     14th.  And you listed the persons present, including Colonel Galic,

 6     Colonel Basara, and representatives of the municipalities of Kljuc and

 7     Mrkonjic Grad and Jajce.  Now --

 8        A.   Sipovo.

 9        Q.   And I missed Sipovo.  So just because you haven't seen this, I

10     would imagine, in quite a few years, I'd actually like to give you a

11     moment to have a look at your own handwriting.

12        A.   Yes, that's my handwriting.

13        Q.   All right.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go over to the next page, please, in both

15     languages.

16        Q.   And I'd like Mr. Karac to have a look at both sides, again, just

17     so that can he see what his notes say on the first page, and then go over

18     to the right-hand side.

19        A.   Could you please make it larger?  I can't see.

20        Q.   So here's the military giving some briefings on the situation,

21     including your Colonel Basara.  And you could just tell us when you get

22     to the bottom of your page that you've got presently displayed in front

23     of you.

24        A.   We can turn the page.

25        Q.   Okay.  So here you've got notes of seven strategic goals.  These

Page 30746

 1     were the goals that you were told had been announced at the meeting in

 2     Banja Luka, weren't they?

 3        A.   Yes, those are the goals that were notified to us then.

 4        Q.   And these are ... these were your war goals, weren't they?

 5        A.   Those were not my war goals.  Those were the goals set by the

 6     state leadership.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, could we just go quickly over to another

 9     document and then we'll come back to this one.  P2867.

10        Q.   So here we've got some minutes of that same meeting that you took

11     such good notes of, listing the same participants.  And if you go over to

12     page 3 in both languages, setting out at points 1 to 6, almost the same

13     strategic goals.

14             Now, I know it's going fast, but if we can hop over to page 4 in

15     both languages, I want to draw your attention to something General Galic

16     said.

17             And if you need to, I can go back to the immediately preceding

18     page so you can see, you can confirm for yourself that it is attributed

19     to General Galic; but if not, I want to draw your attention to the first

20     bullet point -- I'm speaking about the English version.  I want to draw

21     your attention to the first bullet point underneath General Galic's

22     proposal for a conclusion.  General Galic says:

23             "Implement the decisions from the meeting in Banja Luka but

24     submit them to the commands of units and municipalities."

25             So here's my question that I'd like you to confirm:  In the area

Page 30747

 1     of responsibility of your brigade, this is how co-operation as between

 2     the different arms of authority happened, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So the strategic goals that were set in Banja Luka were shared

 5     goals that guided your military operations.  That's what this document

 6     shows, doesn't it?

 7        A.   They were not shared goals.  They came down from the state

 8     leadership, and the army was supposed to implement them.

 9        Q.   So, in fact, when you said -- can we just go back to the

10     preceding page and we can look at the first goal again, which you also

11     have noted in your notebook.  So when you said in your written evidence

12     that the role of your brigade wasn't -- was to keep the peace between the

13     opposing sides, that's actually incorrect, isn't it, because the first

14     overarching goal of your brigade and the military forces was to ensure a

15     state separation of three national communities; right?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC:  My learned friend is misrepresenting the evidence she

19     just pulled up.  On the screen, we don't have it, but the last page we

20     had a moment ago, and we should see what Galic - Mr. Galic at the time,

21     probably not General yet - said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what Madam Edgerton is quoting at this

23     moment is number one on the page that is before us.  Is there anything

24     wrong with that quote?

25             MR. LUKIC:  The question is in contradiction with this document.

Page 30748

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then re-read the question.  One second,

 2     please.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Because it says --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- I asked you to ... the objection is denied.

 5     I will give you in detail the reasons why.

 6             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can you give it to me now?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I will give it at a -- before you have an

 9     opportunity to re-examine the witness.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can I not object when somebody is misrepresenting the

11     evidence that it's addressing --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is not the beginning of a debate.

13     This is a ruling.

14             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And I said that the reasons will follow soon in more

16     detail but I'm not inclined to do that in the presence of the witness at

17     this moment.

18             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  What I'm going to do is actually maybe to help

20     Mr. Karac and go back to his diary for a second at 65 ter number 31874,

21     having seen this document.

22             And in B/C/S, I want to go to page 68, I think, and English

23     page 3.  Make it English page 4, please.

24        Q.   So what happened, Mr. Karac, after this meeting was that you and

25     the staff held a meeting --

Page 30749

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  We could go -- we should go and enlarge the

 2     right-hand side of the B/C/S page of Mr. Karac's notebook.  Thanks.

 3        Q.   So on the 14th of May in 1992, so the next day after this

 4     meeting, there was a brigade command meeting.  And do you see the

 5     citation that says "General Mladic" and then lists a number of points

 6     below that:  To close geographic latitudes so that borders can be

 7     defended successfully.  It has been envisaged that those territories are

 8     compact.

 9             And then you might be able to read the next passage better for us

10     because it's in your handwriting and I think the translator has missed a

11     word.  "Europe," with a question mark, "has envisaged relocation also,"

12     and then it goes on.  Point number 1.

13             So I asked you at the beginning -- here's my question.  I asked

14     about -- at the beginning of the second session you were here whether you

15     had met General Mladic before and you said only in 1994.  So

16     General Mladic wasn't here at this meeting, was he?

17        A.   I don't see that before me.  I don't know which document you're

18     talking about.

19        Q.   Okay.  Have a look, the screen in front of you, underneath the

20     title that you've underlined where it says:

21             "Meeting of the brigade command and the battalion commander."

22             There's a small notation, just at the top on the left-hand side,

23     and it says "General Mladic."

24             If you don't see that, you can still answer the question.

25     General Mladic wasn't at this meeting, was he?

Page 30750

 1        A.   General Mladic was not present at that meeting.  Why I wrote

 2     "General Mladic," I really can't remember now.  Maybe somebody talked

 3     about General Mladic or something, but I maintain that General Mladic was

 4     not present at that meeting.

 5        Q.   No, I didn't think so, but let me put this to you.  Here's what I

 6     think is happening at this meeting.  So four days after the strategic

 7     objectives are announced by Dr. Karadzic in Banja Luka, they're briefed

 8     to the political -- the Serbian political and military leaders in your

 9     area, and then the following day, here you were receiving even more

10     detailed instructions from Mladic's subordinates about different aspects

11     of those war goals.  That's what was going on; right?

12        A.   I don't understand your question.  Could you maybe put it

13     differently?

14        Q.   Sure.  You heard the war goals.  You were at the meeting where

15     they were discussed.  The next day, the whole brigade command had a

16     meeting with their battalion commanders about those war goals and how

17     they should be implemented, and that's what you noted on the 14th of May,

18     isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  So I asked you a little while ago about the first

21     objective, and we can go back to that page in your notebook so you

22     yourself can have a look at it.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  It's page 66, so it's the page immediately

24     preceding.  67, pardon me.  And I think it's page 2 in the translated

25     version.

Page 30751

 1        Q.   So have a look again at goal number 1 that you noted down.  Goal

 2     number 1 is:

 3             "State separation from the other two communities."

 4             So I want to put to you is:  Based on what you said, your

 5     brigade's task had nothing -- based on what you said and what happened in

 6     Sanski Most, your brigade's task had nothing to do with keeping the peace

 7     between the factions.  It was to ensure their separation pursuant to the

 8     war goals articulated by the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?

 9        A.   I said the brigade had arrived in the area of Sanski Most to keep

10     peace in the municipality, and that was indeed done until the moment when

11     attacks began against members of the army of what was then the Republic

12     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Until then, they were keeping the peace.

13             However, when the members of the army were attacked, the army

14     responded, and then these orders followed and we received well-defined,

15     strategic goals.

16        Q.   And in places -- just going to the two places you spoke about in

17     your written evidence, Mahala and Hrustovo, by the 30th of May, 1992,

18     there were no non-Serbs left, were there?

19        A.   I think that was so.  I believe the majority of the population

20     had already left.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll have nothing further, Your Honours.  And what

23     I'm going to ask is for the selected pages that we discussed about

24     65 ter 31874 to be admitted and as a Prosecution Exhibit, and we'll

25     upload those excerpts forthwith.

Page 30752

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll wait for that selection.  Meanwhile we

 2     should reserve a number for it.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives P7070, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time would you

 6     approximately need?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying to calculate.  Probably 15 minutes.  Not

 8     more than 20, 15.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll have to do that tomorrow.  Perhaps

10     it's better also then to start your re-examination tomorrow morning.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll adjourn soon but you are already --

13     you may go already.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning for only

14     a very short session at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.  And

15     I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way,

16     with whomever, about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've

17     given today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.  You

18     may follow the usher.

19             Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And with respect --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence.  I've been beckoned by

24     Mr. Tieger.

25             And just with respect to the query by your colleague His Honour

Page 30753

 1     Judge Moloto, if I may I'd like to come back to Your Honours with a

 2     response to that first thing tomorrow morning when we resume.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Lukic, I think I still owe you the

 4     reasoning for the denial of your objection.  I carefully read the

 5     question.  The first part of the question is about the first goal, as it

 6     appears in the notebook, and then the question followed by:

 7             "So when you said in your written evidence that the role of your

 8     brigade was to keep the peace between opposing sides, that's actually

 9     incorrect ..."

10             I think that's what the statement says, isn't it?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it does.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And then it continued by saying:

13             "... because the first overarching goal of your brigade and the

14     military forces was to ensure state separation of the three national

15     communities."

16             And that is what is found, I think, in the document we had read;

17     correct?

18             MR. LUKIC:  That's the continuation but the question was composed

19     that Ms. Edgerton wanted to show that this witness is not telling the

20     truth when he said that the goal of the brigade was to separate warring

21     parties at that time.  And the document we saw on our screens exactly

22     said the same, and using that document to prove the opposite is not

23     logical for me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, whether it's logical

25     or not, that is something different from misrepresenting the evidence.

Page 30754

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And it was misrepresentation of the evidence as well.

 2     Because the document said differently --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what Ms. Edgerton did with this question and

 4     why I ruled that the objection was denied is that she put opposite to

 5     each other the statement of the witness compared to what is found in the

 6     document as the first strategic goal as written down in that notebook.

 7     There's nothing wrong with that because it's fully understandable that

 8     one reads that as possibly inconsistent, the one with the other, and

 9     that's what Ms. Edgerton referred to in her question and that's the

10     reason why I ruled that the objection was denied.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I will deal with that tomorrow in my re-direct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No problem to deal with such matters in

13     re-examination, Mr. Lukic, I emphasise that again and again.  Therefore,

14     we'll wait and hear tomorrow.

15             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the

16     28th of January, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

19                           January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.