Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30836

 1                           Thursday, 29 January 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?  Yes.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

14     into the courtroom, I briefly deal with two matters and I cut matters

15     short.  The first is that for P698 [sic] a new version was uploaded into

16     e-court which would reflect the Chamber's decision concerning omission of

17     an excerpt of that document.  The new version was uploaded, as the

18     Chamber understands, into e-court under 65 ter number 31640a.  The

19     Registry was already -- has already been instructed to make the necessary

20     replacement and therefore will now do so.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then as far as P07072 is concerned the -- a new

23     translation is there.  I'll deal with that in more detail once we've

24     heard the evidence of the witness.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Just a small transcript correction, Mr. President.

Page 30837

 1     Line 15 indicates P698 and I believe the Court was referring to P6938.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I at least wanted to refer to.

 3             Good morning, Witness.  Could I invite you to stand, Mr. Stanic.

 4     Mr. Stanic, before you give evidence I would invite you to make the

 5     solemn declaration that has been handed out to you already.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILENKO STANIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Stanic.

11     Mr. Stanic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You find

12     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

13             Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

15                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stanic.

17        A.   Good morning, gentlemen.

18        Q.   For the record, would you please tell us slowly your exact name

19     and surname.

20        A.   Surname Stanic, name Milenko.

21        Q.   Mr. Stanic, did you at one point in time give a statement to the

22     Defence team of Mr. Mladic [as interpreted]?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did I hear "Mr. Mladic" or did I hear

25     "Mr. Karadzic"?  Did you give a statement to the Karadzic Defence or to

Page 30838

 1     the Mladic Defence, Witness?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Karadzic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I gave a statement to the

 5     Defence team of Mr. Karadzic a year ago.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court

 9     65 ter 1D04317.

10        Q.   Mr. Stanic, you will see your statement on the screen before you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the last page of

12     it.  In B/C/S could we see it?  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Stanic, on this page of your statement do you recognise the

14     signature, is it yours?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   The date which is handwritten on the left-hand side, is it the

17     date that you wrote yourself in your own hand?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Very briefly, Mr. Stanic, in the course of proofing

20     before you appeared before the Court, did you share with me some details

21     about your encounters with Mr. Mladic?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

24     in e-court 65 ter 1D04 -- 05326, 05326.

25        Q.   I would only like to ask you, Mr. Stanic, this information that

Page 30839

 1     you shared with us concerning your encounters with Mr. Mladic and the

 2     details that you provided during the proofing with the Defence team of

 3     Mr. Karadzic and the answers you provided in the Karadzic case, today

 4     when you gave the solemn declaration in this courtroom would you provide

 5     the same answers to those same questions?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I have the disadvantage, of course,

 9     of not being present for all of the previous Defence examinations in

10     which proofing notes were referred to or admitted, but I did not

11     anticipate that there would be a 92 ter attempt for this.  I have no

12     particular objections with the Defence doing a measure of leading since

13     they presented us with the proofing note, but unless this has been a

14     practice in this case, I'm not sure either of the specific requirements

15     of 92 ter have been fulfilled or that this is an approach the Court would

16     favour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think usually -- I would say that proofing notes

18     often where they were dealing with minor technical details, that they

19     were not gone through, although sometimes the Defence also has chosen to

20     go through them in all detail.  I think it was yesterday that we heard

21     that the end of a career of a witness was slightly changed by a couple of

22     months.

23             But here, as a matter of fact, Mr. Stojanovic, what we find here

24     is encounters with Mr. Mladic which is perhaps at the core of this case

25     which were announced in the 65 ter summary where I think not a word was

Page 30840

 1     found in the statement that was tendered under Rule 92 ter.  Therefore,

 2     it's certainly a bit uncommon what you're doing at this moment, certainly

 3     not in line with what is usually done.

 4             The Chamber has not had the advantage, Mr. Tieger, to even read

 5     the proofing note, at least I've not seen it.  It may be that it was

 6     sent.

 7             Was it sent, Mr. Stojanovic, to Chambers staff?  It may well be.

 8     I may have --

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe we did

10     provide to you and the Prosecution this material, and I was prepared to

11     talk to Mr. Tieger and go through the answers Mr. Stanic gave me during

12     proofing.  And I would not like to depart from the procedure and the

13     material we have obtained during proofing, that was the understanding we

14     had with Mr. Tieger.  This was only a way to make it happen faster.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have missed it, Mr. Stojanovic.  Could you

16     tell us when it was sent to the Chambers staff, this proofing note and as

17     I now understand the revised Defence exhibit list for the witness.  Could

18     you give us any details?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this was sent

20     yesterday morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yesterday morning.  Let's have a look, 28th --

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, while we were in the

23     courtroom.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, we'll verify that whether it was done or

25     not, at least I now have it in a printed version before me.  Perhaps you

Page 30841

 1     touch upon -- it's the core of the case, it's encounters with Mr. Mladic,

 2     that you deal with every paragraph very briefly, not necessarily to read

 3     it all.  The first one is that the witness in his ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber considers the statement

 6     to be a new statement, as a matter of fact, it touches upon matters which

 7     do not appear in the original statement.  Therefore, we'll see how you

 8     work with it.  You have tendered in your 92 ter motion the original

 9     statement given to the Karadzic statement.  We'll decide on that and

10     we'll see how you proceed with the remainder.  We know by now that the

11     witness has -- during proofing has apparently given a new statement.  We

12     leave it in your hands how to proceed, but we'll first focus on what was

13     tendered -- what was submitted in your 28th of October --

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

15        Q.   So, Mr. Stanic, my last question before we started to deal with

16     this formal problem:  Would you today, after giving the oath in this

17     courtroom, provide the same answers to the same questions that had been

18     put to you by the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic and would these answers be

19     to the best of your knowledge, truthful, and accurate?

20        A.   Yes, those answers were truthful and my answers would not be any

21     different.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

24     tender the statement of Witness Milenko Stanic which is 65 ter 1D04317.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 30842

 1             Any objection against admission of that statement?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that statement would receive

 4     number ...?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D04317 receives number D884,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  D884 is admitted into

 8     evidence.

 9             Witness, may I take it that you made a mistake when you said that

10     that statement was taken one year ago because on the basis of the date we

11     find in it, it is two years ago that it was taken?  February 2013.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's when I was here at

13     the Tribunal and some time before we did the proofing.  I was here around

14     15 February 2013.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I have one question.

16     Something appears which is quite extraordinary in this statement which is

17     now admitted and I'm seeking your explanation for it.  Between

18     paragraph 42 and 43 it reads:

19             "Information elicited on the 16th of February, 2013, translation

20     provided by Karadzic Defence."

21             That appears just in the midst of this document and I wonder what

22     it is that paragraph 43 would be different from the first 42 paragraphs?

23     Could you explain to us what triggered this to be part of this statement?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to the

25     information I got from the witness, before talking to Mr. Karadzic during

Page 30843

 1     proofing before he appeared in the courtroom that day, 16 February 2013,

 2     the witness added this information which is contained in paragraph 43 and

 3     the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic added it subsequently to the statement

 4     that was admitted into evidence in that case.  And it concerns a person

 5     called Ferid Hodzic, TO commander.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if that's the case, when was the original

 7     statement taken if this is just paragraph 43 being proofing?  When was

 8     the witness interviewed?  Do you know that?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] From what I was told, it was the

10     day before in a room in the Detention Unit and that interview was

11     continued on the 16th of February and it was put in writing and made a

12     part of the statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, is it true that the most part of your

14     statement was taken one day and then the other day, the day on which you

15     signed, that a paragraph was added?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the proofing took a

17     long time.  I provided most of the facts in 2012, towards the end of

18     2012.  Of course I talked to the Defence team in the field and read back

19     the statement.  And when I came to testify here I reviewed it again, and

20     the Chamber in Karadzic accepted the statement without any problem and

21     there were no objections either by the Prosecution or the Defence team.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember who took the statement -- I mean,

23     when you were interviewed already in 2012, was that by Mr. Karadzic or

24     was that by his team or members of his team?  Do you have any

25     recollection?

Page 30844

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of his team on the ground.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And were you then interviewed by Mr. Karadzic

 3     himself?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, during proofing I met with

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was the day before you gave testimony; is

 7     that well understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In writing.  I can't say exactly.

 9     It's possible.  It was either the day before or the day after, but it was

10     within one day of testifying.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do, Mr. Stojanovic, does this then mean

14     that paragraph 43 has not been translated by CLSS?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from what I know

16     about the way the Defence team of Karadzic works, they immediately write

17     down things in English and that is how they provided the statement in

18     English directly to the Chamber in Karadzic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the way they work, but what is the answer

20     to my question?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, the

22     CLSS did not translate their statements.  They translated their own

23     statements and submitted them as such to the Trial Chamber.  But of

24     course, take this with a grain of salt.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What then is the significance of making this

Page 30845

 1     remark:  "Translation provided by Karadzic Defence," if it is no

 2     departure from normal practice?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know how to answer

 4     that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.  These, however, are

 6     matters which if you tender a statement you should be aware of.  If it

 7     catches our eyes within a second, then it surprises that you have not

 8     given it more thought.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

10     tender also the two accompanying documents, 1D03128 and document 1D04318.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?  These were originally the associated

12     exhibits to the initial statement.

13             Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D3128 receives number D885 and document

15     1D4318 receives number D886, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D885 and D886 are admitted.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Let me ask you, Mr. Stanic, today when you have given the solemn

20     declaration here in the courtroom, do you stand by the remarks that you

21     made during our proofing regarding the encounters and contacts you had

22     with General Mladic --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, they have not been tendered as an exhibit.

24     They are not before Court.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

Page 30846

 1     respect, I believe they were.  They have a number, 65 ter 1D05326,

 2     proofing note --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They have not been admitted into evidence yet.

 4     Until they are admitted into evidence you cannot talk about them.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  Let

 6     me then tender 1D05326 to be admitted into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we say it's a new statement.  Please

 8     introduce the information in that statement viva voce so that all doubts

 9     as to what it is about -- because we received it now but ...

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour,

11     that's how I will proceed.

12        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I will ask you this:  During war-time events did you

13     have any meetings with General Mladic?

14        A.   Yes, a number of meetings.

15        Q.   And are you able to tell me, if you remember, in 1995 where these

16     meetings took place?

17        A.   There were several of them, and I can confirm that I participated

18     in two meetings about which General Mladic made some entries in his war

19     diaries.

20        Q.   And can you please tell us what was the topic of those meetings,

21     the talks and discussions in which Mr. Mladic participated?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Now, I'm sorry to interrupt the examination, but I

24     thought it was best to head off some confusion before it became embedded

25     in the record and had to be disentangled with further questions.  Based

Page 30847

 1     on the proofing note, I understand the two meetings the witness is about

 2     to talk about to have taken place in 1992 not 1995.  So I don't know

 3     whether or not that was simply --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, from what I read until now it says that he had

 5     a greater number of meetings starting from mid-1992.

 6             If the two specific meetings in the second paragraph,

 7     Mr. Stojanovic, if they took place in 1995, then, first of all, the

 8     proofing note doesn't say that at all.  So would you then first, instead

 9     of introducing in your question the year 1995, first establish when it

10     was that the various meetings referred to in the first and the second

11     paragraph of the proofing note took place.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I got 1991 in

13     the interpretation.

14        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I want to ask you this:  The two meetings that you

15     are discussing, when did they take place?

16        A.   In 1992.

17        Q.   And where were they held?

18        A.   The first one in Vlasenica, at the Municipal Assembly seat in

19     Vlasenica.  The second one was held at the Municipal Assembly seat in

20     Zvornik.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, again, it is a new statement so when

22     I refer to it, I did so because it was given to us and it was entirely

23     unclear about the year.  The appropriate way of introducing this kind of

24     evidence if, for example, you want to elicit the evidence as we find it

25     in the second paragraph of this document, which is not yet in evidence,

Page 30848

 1     is:  Have you met General Mladic at various occasions?  And then you can,

 2     for example, mention a year.  And then you elicit the evidence viva voce

 3     even if you have in the back of your mind what you know and what is

 4     before us, that is, the proofing note.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   What I want to ask you now is this:  Could you please tell the

 7     Trial Chamber what the topic was of the first meeting in 1992 in the

 8     Municipal Assembly building in Vlasenica?

 9        A.   The entire leadership attended the meeting, the leadership of the

10     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, and there were a number of members of

11     the Main Staff.  We informed the members of the Main Staff about the

12     ongoing security and political situation in the municipality.  While

13     preparing for the meeting, our Secretariat for National Defence prepared

14     a report about the degree of mobilisation and we informed the members of

15     the Main Staff about that as well.

16        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what General Mladic said

17     in his address on that occasion?

18        A.   General Mladic asked us for a greater degree of engagement in the

19     process of mobilisation, for greater support in the supply of the army

20     units, and he pointed to some impermissible acts that he said he would

21     deal with and try to root out.

22        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber when the second meeting

23     was held, the one in Zvornik?

24        A.   After the meeting in Vlasenica, I think that this is around the

25     time of late June 1992 or possibly early July 1992 - I'm not sure if I

Page 30849

 1     will get the date absolutely correct - and it was in the municipal

 2     building in Zvornik.

 3        Q.   And what did General Mladic talk about at that meeting?

 4        A.   The meeting was attended by military commanders and the entire

 5     political leadership of the municipalities belonging to the Zvornik

 6     region.  General -- the General particularly talked about a decisive

 7     battle against paramilitary formations that were particularly active in

 8     the Zvornik area during that period.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And finally I would like you to tell the

10     Trial Chamber --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

12             Did he talk about paramilitaries in Zvornik -- Serbian

13     paramilitaries or Muslim paramilitaries?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he spoke about Serbian

15     paramilitary formations in Zvornik.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   And I'm going to end with this question, Mr. Stanic:  The other

19     meetings where you had the opportunity to meet General Mladic, what was

20     his position and what did he most frequently talk about?

21        A.   I never noticed or observed General Mladic issuing any kind of

22     instructions to expel Muslims after military attacks nor any type of

23     commission of war crimes.  He often spoke about our internal problems

24     during these meetings in the Serbian republic, and in particular he

25     criticised the problems and the functioning of the Ministry of the

Page 30850

 1     Interior.  He often criticised certain deputies as well who often

 2     criticised the army without any valid arguments for that.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stanic for these responses.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, can I ask a question.  In what capacity did

 5     you attend the meetings in Vlasenica and in Zvornik?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the president of the Municipal

 7     Assembly of Vlasenica and also for a brief period as the president of the

 8     Autonomous Region of Birac which included a number of municipalities in

 9     the Zvornik area.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And thank you to the

12     witness, Your Honours.  I have no further questions for the witness so,

13     by your leave, I would like to read the summary of the statement of

14     Witness Milenko Stanic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and whatever you wanted to have additionally

16     admitted is now elicited viva voce so we can put aside at this moment the

17     proofing note.  Please read the summary, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milenko Stanic was

19     elected to the post of president of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica

20     after the first multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina and he

21     remained at that post with some status changes until 1993, when he was

22     appointed to the post of minister of trade and tourism in the government

23     of the RS.  When he was performing the duties of president of the

24     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, according to the agreement on the

25     division of power with the SDA, Izet Redzic, a member of the SDA, was

Page 30851

 1     elected as president of the Executive Board of the municipality of

 2     Vlasenica.

 3             From the beginning right after it was formed, the authorities did

 4     not function properly and there were frequent differences about the

 5     question of implementing the referendum on the independence of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina about the position towards the JNA and mobilisation, about

 7     personnel issues, and the documentation of the Secretariat for

 8     National Defence.

 9             Aware that the Muslims were moving towards independence and

10     secession from Yugoslavia, the Serbs approached the formalizing of the

11     idea about the Serbs remaining in the SFRY and the Territorial Defence of

12     the municipality of Vlasenica.  The agreement between the Serb and the

13     Muslim people was verified and signed at the Assembly session on the

14     13th of April, 1992, at which time it was also adopted.  However, in the

15     implementation of the decision, the leadership of the SDA backed out of

16     the agreement so that only the part of the decision relating to the

17     forming of the municipality of Milici was actually carried out.

18             At the same time, with these political attempts to settle the

19     crisis in a peaceful way, the population was leaving the municipality of

20     Vlasenica en masse, first of all, Serbs and then followed by the Muslim

21     population in the direction of Tuzla.  Together with Redzic, he

22     personally went to Tuzla and called on the Muslims to return to Vlasenica

23     and to continue their life together.  On the 21st of April, 1992, the TO

24     was mobilised with the task of securing buildings of key significance and

25     to prevent looting of property.  This task was carried out without any

Page 30852

 1     fighting and without any casualties.

 2             In his statement he talks about the reasons for the forming of

 3     the Crisis Staff in Vlasenica, the problems in its functioning, and the

 4     later forming of the War Commission, and tasks relating to organising the

 5     accommodation and transport of the civilian population, i.e., those who

 6     were leaving and those who were arriving at Vlasenica, about the purpose

 7     of the Susica facility, and about his knowledge relating to events in the

 8     villages of Zaklopaca, Drum, Pijuci, Dzambici, and Bare.

 9             Your Honours, this is a brief summary of the witness's statement.

10     We have no further questions for him.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  I am just -- one second,

12     please.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Susica is dealt with where exactly

15     in the statement?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honours.

17     Paragraph 28.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check again.  Yes, that is about

19     buildings and houses and not about -- I now understand that you say the

20     explanation of - and let me read it - the Susica facility, you are purely

21     talking about houses and people staying there for a while.  Nothing

22     about -- it's not referring to any detention facility or something of

23     the -- like that, isn't it?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours,

25     as it states in paragraph 28.

Page 30853

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  That's -- well, summary is not evidence

 2     so we don't have to further be concerned about that.

 3             Then, Witness, having now gone through your examination-in-chief,

 4     you'll now be cross-examined, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Tieger.

 5     You find Mr. Tieger to your right.  In a minute he'll be standing.

 6     Mr. Tieger is counsel for the Prosecution.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             Before I commence the cross-examination, I would simply note, as

10     I indicated to Mr. Lukic before the beginning of the court session, that

11     Mr. Stanic did receive a 90(E) advisement in the Karadzic case.

12     Mr. Lukic indicated -- don't want to speak for him, but that he broached

13     the subject generally with the witness as I think he routinely does, and

14     the witness indicated he didn't need such a warning.  But given the fact

15     that it was given in the Karadzic case, I just wanted to bring it to the

16     attention of the Court and leave it in the Court's hands.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The practice is in this Chamber that -- especially

18     if these are Defence witnesses, that, first of all, the Defence thinks

19     about it and discusses it.  If, Mr. Tieger, you at any point in time feel

20     that a 90(E) warning would be appropriate -- and of course I don't know

21     what kinds of questions you are going to put to the witness and not

22     knowing what material you would have which would make you believe that

23     90(E) warning would be there.  But if you find there is a point where it

24     might be wise to do so, then the Chamber will do so at your request.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Very well, Mr. President.  As a general matter I

Page 30854

 1     think the nature of the cross-examination implicates issues that would

 2     give rise --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  -- to such an advisement in the similar manner as

 5     the examination in Karadzic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What you therefore say is:  In view of the questions

 7     I'm going to put to the witness and in line of what my material tells me,

 8     it would be wise already to do that right away.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, I think so, rather than waiting for the

10     specific questions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll do that right away.

12             Witness, I'll read to you Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure

13     and Evidence.  It says:

14             "A witness," that's you in this case, "may object to making any

15     statement which might tend to incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may,

16     however, compel the witness to answer the question, but testimony

17     compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent

18     prosecution against the witness for any offence other than false

19     testimony."

20             So if you think your answers would be of an incriminating nature

21     for yourself, you may ask not to answer that question.  Is that clear to

22     you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 30855

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

 2        Q.   Mr. Stanic, we have about ten minutes until the break, so we will

 3     be covering a few questions.  So you know the timetable, we'll be

 4     adjourning for 20 minutes after that.

 5             You mention at paragraph 5 of your statement that you were chosen

 6     as president of the Assembly, which I understand to be the highest

 7     position in the municipality, and that Mr. Redzic was selected as the

 8     chairman of the Executive Board.  That's correct, isn't it?

 9        A.   It's difficult to say what the highest-ranking position is.  It

10     was a system of local authority, pre-war system, where the

11     Executive Board had broader competencies than the president of the

12     Assembly.  The president of the Assembly was not a mayor with the mayor's

13     competences.  He was a deputy, first among deputies, and he presided over

14     the Assembly.

15        Q.   Okay.  The Executive Board then was - as the designation

16     indicates - an executive body and was the municipal equivalent of what

17     the government was at the republic level; right?

18        A.   No.  The Executive Board was the local government.

19        Q.   I think there was just a translation misunderstanding.  That's

20     what I was trying to indicate.

21             Now, in paragraph 13 of your statement you refer to the adoption

22     of a decision and the joining by the Vlasenica municipality of the Birac

23     Autonomous District in December of 1991.  Now, that body that is referred

24     to here as the Autonomous District was not an ethnically neutral or

25     general multi-cultural regional body, but it was one of the regional

Page 30856

 1     bodies known as Serbian Autonomous Districts or Regions; correct?

 2        A.   That body was called the autonomous area or region of Birac.  At

 3     the Assembly session, the deputies asked that it be -- or a number of the

 4     deputies ask that it be named the Serbian autonomous region; however, at

 5     the request of deputies from other parties, the reformist party and the

 6     SDP, explained that the area with such a name should be left open for the

 7     Muslims -- deputies of Muslim ethnicity to also join the body who were in

 8     favour of the preservation of the federal state.  It's true that the body

 9     functioned for a very brief period of time and it comprised only deputies

10     of Serb ethnicity.

11        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I understand that it was -- it's your testimony that

12     the designation of the body in the vote that was taken in Vlasenica was

13     altered to make it more palatable to Serbian opposition members, but the

14     reality is that this body was known to others including the Bosnian Serb

15     Assembly as the Serbian Autonomous District of Birac; right?

16        A.   Well, I don't know who imagined what, but I could just go by the

17     facts.  In Vlasenica, we as members of the Serbian Democratic Party did

18     not have the necessary majority to reach such a decision.  We needed the

19     support of four deputies who were members of the former communists, this

20     is the SDP party, and from Markovic's reformists, meaning the reformist

21     party.  And it was their explicit request, in order for them to support

22     such a decision, was to call it the Autonomous District and not the

23     Serbian Autonomous District.  And I've already told you what their

24     explanation was.  I think that that was a good proposal; however, the

25     situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina was not like that and that was

Page 30857

 1     evident from the referendums, that the line was complete and that all

 2     Muslims mostly were in favour of leaving the federal state and that all

 3     the Serbs were in favour of the preservation of the federal state.

 4        Q.   One document before the break.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Can we turn to 65 ter 02334.

 6        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I asked you about the position of and the

 7     understanding of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.  This is an excerpt from the

 8     2nd Session of that body on the 21st of November, 1991 - at page 32 in

 9     English and page 33 in Serbian - and reflects the Assembly's decision on

10     the verification of the declared Serbian autonomous provinces in Bosnia

11     and Herzegovina, including the Serbian autonomous regions in Krajina, in

12     Herzegovina, and in Romanija-Birac encompassing municipalities such as

13     Han Pijesak, Pale, Sokolac, Vlasenica, and Sekovici.  So this is a

14     reflection, Mr. Stanic, of the understanding by, among others, the

15     Bosnian Serb Assembly that these bodies were Serbian autonomous regions

16     or districts; correct?

17        A.   Evidently this is that type of decision.  In the -- on the

18     ground, however, there were different situations.

19        Q.   All right.  Well, when we return we'll look at some documents

20     reflecting the situation on the ground.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from that, the previous question where I think

22     you were asked about how the Assembly looked at it, not the local

23     Assembly.  And then you said:  I don't know how they looked at it.

24     That's not entirely consistent with the answer you're giving us now.

25             Please proceed.

Page 30858

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And I think I understood the timing correctly and we

 2     would be breaking now, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break and we'd like to see you

 4     back in 20 minutes, Mr. Stanic.  You may follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And if I could tender 65 ter 02334 before we move

 7     forward.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a very long document, Mr. --

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I understand -- in conformity with the Court's

10     practice, Mr. President, which I understand was to either tender this

11     excerpt separately or we can hold it in abeyance until we identify the

12     full collection of excerpts from this Assembly session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I must admit that I do not remember at this moment

14     whether we had reserved a number for the 2nd Session.  If not, then I

15     leave it to you.  You know better how you're going to use this same

16     document in future, we do not know.  So if you think there will be

17     considerable follow-up, then I think it would be good that we tender it

18     but that later you'll make the excerpts of all the portions in it you

19     dealt with, and otherwise to tender it separately as an excerpt now.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I would -- maybe I can answer that at the

21     break.  I just want to check with a couple of people to see if they have

22     in mind some --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll wait until after the break.

24             We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

Page 30859

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, you said you would inform us after the

 4     break about the use of this document.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I would -- for now I would ask

 6     to have it, 65 ter 02334a, include - and I mentioned this to Mr. Lukic at

 7     the break - pages 1 through 4 and 32 through 34 of the English and the

 8     same in the Serbian.  I don't believe there's any objection to that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And they have been uploaded as such?  Not yet?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Not yet.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So then we reserve a number awaiting the upload of

12     what you just told us would be uploaded.

13             Madam Registrar, the number reserved would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The number reserved for document 65 ter 2334a

15     will be P7077, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Stanic, the SAOs, the Serbian Autonomous Districts or

19     regions, were established commencing in September 1991 pursuant to

20     guidance and direction from the SDS republic level; correct?

21        A.   I do not remember having any guidance or direction of that kind,

22     but following the situation as it was unfolding in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

23     noting the obvious fact that people were trying to overturn the federal

24     state that we shared, I believed, together with other politicians in

25     Vlasenica during the ongoing negotiations about demarcation in

Page 30860

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it was necessary to take a position on the issue

 2     and to enter the negotiations as a municipality where the majority of

 3     deputies to the Assembly would be in favour of remaining within the

 4     federal state.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  65 ter 31906, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can the witness please answer

 7     the question that was put to him.  Were they established commencing

 8     September 1991?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say the date --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when each region was --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Tieger.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, the witness gave a long answer not

14     focusing on what you asked him as a matter of fact -- well, the first

15     line was, but apart from that.  I do not know whether we want to and

16     whether you want to listen to many explanations which are not directly

17     related to the question.  And I would not be surprised if you say:  You

18     have answered the question.

19             Witness, could you please try to focus your answer on the

20     question because the last question was about whether you acted upon

21     guidance and you said you don't remember any guidance of such kind.

22     That's an answer to the question.  And then what else was on your mind

23     and where you thought it would be wise to take a position or not was not

24     asked and perhaps Mr. Tieger is interested in it, perhaps he's not at

25     all.  Please proceed.

Page 30861

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And thank you for that, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   The document in front of you, Mr. Stanic, as you can see, is

 3     first a cover page sent by Rajko Dukic, the president of the

 4     Executive Board of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina, referring to the

 5     decision on the appointment of the regionalisation staff and a request

 6     for realisation of all activities relating to regionalisation through

 7     that staff sent to all the municipal boards and city boards of the SDS on

 8     September 13th, 1991.

 9             If we turn the page, please, we can see what Mr. Dukic is

10     referring to and that is the decision on the appointment of the

11     regionalisation staff pursuant to the decisions and conclusions made at

12     the counselling of municipal, regional, and republican organs of the

13     Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on 7 September 1991.

14     And the decision continues:

15             "The Staff for monitoring the implementation of the decision on

16     the proclamation of autonomous regions ..." is noted and specified below.

17             That is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, is it not, of the

18     republic-level direction to the municipalities to take affirmative steps

19     regarding regionalisation and in particular the proclamation of the

20     Serbian Autonomous Districts or Regions?

21        A.   What is the question?

22        Q.   I just asked it, Mr. Stanic.  This is a decision, isn't it, by

23     the republic level sent to the municipal bodies to implement the

24     conclusions and decisions at the counselling held on 7 September and in

25     particular the proclamation of SAOs?

Page 30862

 1        A.   I can say I've never seen these decisions.  As far as I can see,

 2     they were sent out by the Serbian Democratic Party.  Whether this

 3     decision reached the Municipal Board of the SDS I don't know because I

 4     was not the president of that party.

 5        Q.   So you're suggesting to this Court that --

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, the witness tells us that he never

 8     received guidance, he doesn't know anything about it.  We have

 9     documentary evidence and if the witness doesn't know anything, then

10     perhaps we should -- of course you can put a little bit to the witness

11     and then to see whether he may have forgotten about some matters, but

12     let's not spend too much time on --

13             MR. TIEGER:  Happy to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with a witness who apparently does not know about

15     these things which are documented at the time.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Happy to tender and move forward.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31 --

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar will first read the number and then

21     I will hear you, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31906 receives number P7078,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 26, line 21 of the

Page 30863

 1     provisional record, the Prosecutor says it's a decision to appoint SAO,

 2     the Serb Autonomous District.  I should like to hear where we can see

 3     that in the document the Prosecutor is showing, that it's about a Serb

 4     SAO.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  If the language of the document is inconsistent with

 7     the phrasing of the question, I yield to the document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is Autonomous District.  I think it is --

 9     but doesn't change your --

10             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.  The point of the question was much

11     broader.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's hereby then corrected.  I think

13     the -- let me just see.  Yes, I think from the answer of the witness,

14     yes, it -- from the answer of the witness it seems that he has not been

15     confused by any inaccurate quoting of the document which, indeed, talks

16     about autonomous regions.  Please proceed.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   Let me deal directly with the question His Honour --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think now we have ruled on the objection so

20     now it's time to decide on admission.  Admitted into evidence.  And of

21     course I'm talking about P7078.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   And let me deal briefly with a question His Honour Judge Moloto

25     asked you, and that was whether or not Serbian Autonomous Districts began

Page 30864

 1     to be proclaimed in September, that is, shortly after the 7 September

 2     meeting that we just referred to.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection, if I could turn to

 4     65 ter 16200.

 5        Q.   This is an article from "Javnost" of 21 September 1991.  If you

 6     look at the upper right-hand corner of the page in Serbian we can see an

 7     article on life as Serbian Autonomous District and the article begins:

 8             "Two Serbian" --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you read that, could you repeat the

10     number, please.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Of the 65 ter --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

13             MR. TIEGER:  16200.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   The article commences:

17             "Two Serbian autonomous districts and one autonomous region were

18     declared this week:  Old Herzegovina, Romanija, and Bosanska Krajina ..."

19             And then the article goes on to discuss the -- some aspects of

20     the underlying reasons given by the author.

21             This is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, isn't it, of the reality that

22     in the relatively immediate aftermath of the 7 September meeting, Serbian

23     Autonomous Districts or Autonomous Regions began to be declared,

24     consistent with the direction that was provided in the previous exhibit?

25        A.   I've already answered once.  I don't see why I should answer your

Page 30865

 1     questions ten times.  Your questions are the same.  I said it could have

 2     been --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stanic --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in September or maybe after

 5     September.  But I can say that in December --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stanic, if there's any objection to the

 7     question, it comes from either the Defence or from the Bench, not from

 8     you.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, and you may --

10             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 65 ter 16200, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16200 receives number P7079,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Stanic, whatever designation you put on it for whatever

17     reason, whether to induce opposition deputies to join the vote, the

18     reality is that the purpose of these bodies, these regional bodies, and

19     the purpose of the regional body for Birac was to advance the interests

20     of the Serbian people; correct?

21        A.   The Serb positions were made clear in the referendum, and if you

22     look at it in that context, they gave 100 per cent support to staying in

23     the shared state.  And if we look at it that way, then your remark is

24     correct.

25        Q.   Well, I'm looking at it a bit broader than a very narrow, limited

Page 30866

 1     reference to the referendum.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  So perhaps we could turn to 65 ter 16184a.

 3        Q.   This document, Mr. Stanic, reflects minutes of a -- of the -- of

 4     THE meeting of the Assembly of Autonomous District Birac held on

 5     February 5th, 1992, in Milici --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It says "autonomous region."  On top of the

 7     English page:

 8             "Minutes of meeting.

 9             "Second session of the Assembly of Autonomous Region of

10     'Birac' ..."

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not the President.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I was focused

14     on the document and misspoke.  My apologies.  Thank you for that

15     correction.

16        Q.   I want to track through some of the comments made at that

17     meeting.  First of all, in point 1 of the meeting we see that:

18             "Milenko Stanic, chairman of the Executive Council of the

19     Autonomous Region of Birac" - and we need to move it so you can see,

20     Mr. Stanic, to page 2 of the Serbian - "explained the Executive Council

21     Operating Programme ..." and opened debate on the programme.

22             Now, as we continue through we see Mr. -- during the course of

23     the discussion about the programme, we can see where the focus of that

24     discussion goes.  So Mr. Jovicic states - if we scroll down on the

25     English, please - that existing means of -- excuse me, that "the economy

Page 30867

 1     of the region should be linked with the economy of neighbouring regions

 2     of Romanija and Semberija and with the economy of Serbia ..."

 3             Mr. Dukic states --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we also perhaps read, then, the line that

 5     follows which may be relevant:

 6             "The available media should be used only if they satisfy the

 7     needs of Serb people."

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I did want to bring that

10     portion to the witness's attention.

11        Q.   Mr. Dukic states that there should be information on the current

12     political situation in the republic, in particular regarding the

13     referendum that the Serbs should abstain from.  He goes on to say that:

14             "The Serb people should establish their own rule in the region

15     and even further."

16             Mr. Tesic states a little further below that:

17             "This should be just the beginning, a starting point for further

18     work on the programme to make it better meet the interests of the Serbs,"

19     et cetera.

20             We see Mr. Savkic below talking about the relationship between

21     the proposed economy and the economy of Serbia.  These references, among

22     others, Mr. Stanic, reflect the fact that this body was focused on

23     fulfilling the interests of the Serbian people.  That was the purpose and

24     effort of this body; correct?

25        A.   Those were the discussions among the Assemblymen, and as you can

Page 30868

 1     see, they're mostly about economic topics, because the Assemblymen were

 2     all Serbs and it's logical that they were concerned with Serb interests.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, Mr. Tieger, could we just turn

 5     over the page of the English one to see the conclusions.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16184a receives number P7080,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Now, we mentioned Mr. Dukic earlier in connection with the

12     distribution of the 7 September -- or of the decision arising from the

13     7 September meeting.  Mr. Dukic, as noted in that document, was the

14     president of the Executive Committee or the Executive Board of the

15     republic-level SDS; right?

16        A.   Yes, for a while he was the president of the Executive Board of

17     the Serbian Democratic Party.

18        Q.   And he was also the co-ordinator for SAO Romanija-Birac; correct?

19        A.   I think so.

20             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection perhaps we could look at two

21     documents quickly.  The first is 65 ter 07908.  These are the minutes of

22     the 8th Session of the Executive Committee of the SDS of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina held on 6 September 1992.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  6 February --

25             MR. TIEGER:  February 1992.  And if we turn to the third page in

Page 30869

 1     English, item 4, I believe that's also the third page in Serbian but

 2     let's check.

 3        Q.   We see that there is a recommendation --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's not the correct page in B/C/S.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Item 4.  There.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   We see a discussion about the impact of the formation of the

 7     Assembly of the Serbian people and the ministerial council rendering the

 8     need for or eliminating the need for the existence of a regionalisation

 9     staff.  And in line with that, the recommendation by the Executive

10     Committee to charge people with responsibility for the accomplishment of

11     regionalisation on the ground.  And making the recommendation that the

12     following individuals be charged with such responsibility in various

13     regions, including Mr. Dukic in Birac and Semberija.

14             And perhaps it's easier if I -- I turn you to another document

15     reflecting the culmination of that recommendation - that's 65 ter 12934 -

16     which reflects a document of 24 February 1992 by the SDS Executive

17     Committee and specifically a decision that Mr. Dukic be appointed as the

18     designated member co-ordinator for the SAO of Semberija and Birac.

19             So those two documents, Mr. Stanic, reflect what you indicated

20     previously, that Mr. Dukic was the co-ordinator for the Birac body?

21        A.   Yes.  He was the co-ordinator but in my statement I did talk

22     about my relationship with Mr. Lukic [as interpreted], our relations were

23     not that good, and at that time -- or actually, before the beginning of

24     the civil war I didn't have any particular communication with Mr. Lukic.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you talking about --

Page 30870

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you talking about Mr. Lukic or about

 3     Mr. Dukic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rajko Dukic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber unanimously could not imagine that you

 6     would have a bad relationship with Mr. Lukic, so therefore all three of

 7     us immediately intervened.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  I tender those two documents.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 7908 receives number P7081 and document

12     12934 receives number P7082, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P7081 and P7082 are admitted into evidence.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Mr. Stanic, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that on

16     February 14th, 1992, at a large plenary, Radovan Karadzic activated the

17     second level of Variant A and B, that is, the instructions of 19 December

18     1991, that's P3774.  Now, what the evidence in P3774, a recording of that

19     plenary meeting, indicates is that Mr. Karadzic explained at page 5 of

20     that document in English and page 4 in the Serbian that now more

21     important than meetings and proclamations is to "gain the real situation,

22     the factual situation on the ground."  He explained that Serbs have the

23     "right" to "introduce the stage number 2 and functioning of your areas

24     and relying on your own forces to absolutely defend yourselves from the

25     independent Bosnia and Herzegovina."  That's at page 7 of the English,

Page 30871

 1     page 5 of the Serbian.

 2             And said further:  "Please, that" -- this is at page 24 of the

 3     English and page 18 of the Serbian.

 4             "Please, that is why we called you today, to intensify, to

 5     introduce the second level, and to intensify the functioning of the

 6     government at any cost and on every single millimetre of our territory."

 7             Now, I'm going to ask you if you recall being present at that

 8     meeting, Mr. Stanic, and I ask that in particular because Mr. Dukic opens

 9     the meeting by noting, and this is at page 1:

10             "Apart from the members of the Main Board and the

11     Executive Board, we invited to this meeting the presidents of

12     SDS Municipal Boards, presidents and members of regional boards,

13     presidents of Assemblies, Executive Committees of municipalities, where

14     we have them and our officials in government where we have them and our

15     officials in government and party organs, as I can see the majority came,

16     maybe even all of you, and I thank you."

17             So do you recall being present at this meeting along with all of

18     these other officials of the party?

19        A.   I cannot remember.  I cannot be definitely sure whether I

20     attended that meeting or not.

21        Q.   Can I assume, however, that whether you were physically present

22     or not, that someone - perhaps even Mr. Dukic - conveyed to you exactly

23     or in general terms what had happened at this important plenary session?

24        A.   It's possible that somebody from the party went to the meeting.

25     Dukic did not convey to me any instructions because, as I said, we didn't

Page 30872

 1     have much communication.

 2        Q.   Well, let's try it in more general terms.  Whether it was

 3     Mr. Dukic or another member of the party, either from Vlasenica or from

 4     the regional body of Birac, you were made aware, were you not, of the

 5     intensification of activities related to gaining the real situation, that

 6     is, the factual situation, on the ground?

 7        A.   We had more contacts at the regional level, and certain

 8     information and procedures I got from the colleagues from the local

 9     Assemblies that were functioning at that regional level.

10        Q.   And although your statement at paragraph 42 might be read as

11     suggesting that you are entirely unfamiliar with the content of Variant A

12     and B, as you indicated in your Karadzic testimony - and if you wish, I

13     can direct your attention to the specific portion - you had heard of the

14     document or at least partially aware of its contents and heard people

15     discuss it at a minimum.

16        A.   As I said, I received a part of the information from

17     representatives of the local Assemblies that probably operated pursuant

18     to such instructions.  I personally don't recall the document or its

19     exact provisions.

20        Q.   Mr. Stanic, four days after Mr. Karadzic called for "intensifying

21     the functioning of the government at any cost and on every single

22     millimetre of our territory," the - and that's at page 24 of the English

23     of P3774 and 18 of the Serbian - four days after that the 1st Session of

24     the Executive Council of the Birac SAO was held to advance the take-over

25     of power in the area of the Birac SAO; isn't that correct?

Page 30873

 1        A.   I cannot state the exact date.  As for the Executive Council, two

 2     sessions were held and two Assembly sessions of the autonomous region and

 3     that's where the whole process ended.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter 1 -- sorry, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dukic, Witness, you were not asked how many

 6     times they met.  You were asked whether the Executive Council decided --

 7     was held to advance the take-over of power.  Do you remember that that

 8     happened in one of those few moments where they met?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At those two meetings we talked

10     about the issues of the regions that should become part of the autonomous

11     region and that we would nominate in future negotiations --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- about the peaceful solution of

14     the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, those that wanted to remain in

15     Republika Srpska.  So I cannot really answer such a specifically put

16     question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you can give the details of what was

18     discussed.  If you say:  I don't remember when their advancing the

19     take-over of power was discussed, then tell us that you don't remember

20     and we'll move on.  Apparently you have some recollection on subjects

21     that were discussed, but this one, if you don't remember, please tell us.

22             You don't remember?

23             Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, if we could call up 65 ter 16187.

25        Q.   This document is the minutes of the 1st Session of the

Page 30874

 1     Executive Council of the Birac SAO held on 18 February 1992 in the

 2     premises of the Municipal Assembly beginning at 1000 hours.  And we see

 3     there, Mr. Stanic, that you as president of the Executive Council of the

 4     Birac SAO chaired the meeting.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And if we turn to the conclusion at page 3 of the

 6     English, and if you turn the page in Serbian as well, please.

 7        Q.   "Conclusion.

 8             "In order to take over power in the area of the Birac SAO as

 9     efficiently as possible ..."

10             And then it goes on to identify some issues in relation to that

11     objective.  So this is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, of what I had asked you

12     earlier, that is, that four days after Mr. Karadzic gave the instruction

13     to "intensify the functioning of the government on every single

14     millimetre of our territory," the Birac SAO Executive Council met to

15     implement precisely that objective, that is, the taking over of power in

16     the area of Birac?

17        A.   We already were in power.  Why would we want to take over power?

18     I had the Assembly majority in Vlasenica.  We had our own chief of the

19     public security station and our own commander deputy.  What is being

20     discussed here is the issue that I mentioned and that is the central

21     topic of all of our discussions, both at the Assembly and in the

22     Executive Board, was how to remain, how to join that part of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina that would recognise federal laws and remain in the

24     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  We had a commission that would be

25     working on these questions because we were concerned that if there were

Page 30875

 1     no activities we would be pulled into a centralised Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, but the one that none of the Serbs wanted to accept and

 3     support.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before we deal with that I have one question.

 6             This was the first meeting of the Executive Board.  You signed

 7     the minutes.

 8             Could we go to the last page, page 3 in e-court.

 9             Did you adopt those minutes?  I see there's no signature but ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The minutes are not signed because

11     there were errors by the person who drafted the minutes, because it was

12     SAO and it was actually the autonomous region as reflected in the

13     decisions of the Assembly.  So the person taking the minutes made these

14     errors.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have corrected minutes been drafted?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that should have been so, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not whether it should have been but

18     whether it was.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  My question is not what you think but whether you

21     know.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What if I don't know now?  What

23     answer can I give?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you don't know, then you tell us that you

25     don't know.  It's a simple as --

Page 30876

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  I'm not 100 per cent

 2     sure.  But I think I drew the minute-taker's attention to that error and

 3     asked that it be corrected, but I don't know whether I signed that --

 4     those minutes or not.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Which suggests that there would be another version

 6     of the minutes of this meeting.  If that could be found or is it -- if

 7     it's anywhere in the collections held by either Defence or Prosecution,

 8     the Chamber would like to know whether they were ever changed.  Because

 9     the minutes were, what we saw a minute ago, adopted in the 2nd Session.

10             MR. TIEGER:  We will certainly do a double-check, Mr. President,

11     but I'm not aware of that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Now, Witness, you earlier told us you had no idea what people

14     would imagine.  Now, if the minute-taker again and again and again in

15     this document talks about a Serbian autonomous region, then -- and if you

16     explained to us that you have drawn his attention to that mistake, then

17     the answer that you could have no idea of how the autonomous regions were

18     perceived, isn't it true that on the basis of this, what you call a

19     mistake, let's just leave it to that, and having seen all the other

20     documents about Serb autonomous regions, that you indeed you could

21     imagine how the autonomous regions were perceived?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me to evaluate what

23     people were thinking and I cannot do that.  Probably your remarks are

24     correct, but I cannot figure out or say what people were thinking.  So in

25     that sense perhaps my answer or my opinion would not be relevant.

Page 30877

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, sometimes people express how they perceive

 2     something, and if that frequently happens, you may gain an impression of

 3     how other people perceive things.  Would you agree with that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both yes and no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain the no?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way people think is different.

 7     In their thinking, people are sometimes guided by their interests or

 8     wishes, and reality, however, is very often different.  I know that it

 9     was the wish of the Serbs to have their own territorial unit in Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina that would remain as part of the Federal Republic of

11     Yugoslavia, and probably the majority thought along those lines.

12     Bosniaks or Muslims were thinking of their own state that they would

13     control by a majority.  And so that was their way of thinking.  So from

14     that aspect, everybody would be looking at these documents in their own

15     way.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what I'm asking you, as a matter of fact,

17     is that everyone expresses as his perception or his opinion that A would

18     be better than B, then you can gain an impression of how people perceive

19     A compared to B.  Just to give an example, if all the Serbs say:  We

20     would rather stay in a federal Yugoslavia, I agree with you, and that's

21     the no, that they may think otherwise, they may all want to separate from

22     the federal Yugoslavia.  But that's apparently not how you understood it.

23     What I'm saying to you more or less is:  That where you earlier said that

24     you could not imagine how people perceive something, that in everyday

25     life we orient ourselves on how people express that they perceive matters

Page 30878

 1     or what opinion they have, and that in that respect I'm asking you

 2     whether having seen all of this, whether indeed you had no idea about how

 3     the autonomous regions were perceived as put to you by Mr. Tieger, that

 4     is, that they were mainly for the Serb interest?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Assembly comprised

 6     all Serbs and that it was logical for them to represent Serb interests,

 7     but I do leave room for deputy Muslims who would possibly opt to support

 8     such a concept and that the Assembly membership would be filled by them.

 9     You also saw the deputies' discussion during the Assembly, all Serb ones.

10     So there isn't too much discussion at that session about Serb interests,

11     but in questions of life are interested, issues pertaining to enterprises

12     and work.  It was logical that we were thinking about connections with

13     Serbia because we were turned towards Serbia.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

15     sentence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last sentence.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm an economist and I'm not a

18     philosopher so I cannot respond to questions about who thought what.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That question was not asked.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put another question to you, Mr. Stanic.

21     Mr. Stanic, you said corrections had to be made to these minutes with

22     respect to the term of "Serbian autonomous region."  Were other

23     corrections made as well?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say right now.  I cannot

25     answer with a yes or a no.

Page 30879

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tieger put to you one sentence under the

 2     heading "conclusion," and I read it to you again:

 3             "In order to take over power in the area of the Birac SAO as

 4     efficiently as possible ..."

 5             Was that sentence corrected?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm wondering why you as the chair of this

 8     meeting and the person who is supposed to sign minutes, reading this

 9     sentence answered to Mr. Tieger:

10             "We already were in power.  Why would we want to take over

11     power?"

12             I really don't understand.  Why does such a sentence appear in

13     these minutes you were the chair of?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that sentence is taken out of

15     context of the conclusions that go along with that sentence.  I mean,

16     minute-takers were often less educated, while the minutes from the

17     Assembly sessions of the SAO were made by a person with a law degree.

18     Here we're talking about a typist who finished secondary school, three

19     years of secondary school.  So it's very likely for such mistakes to be

20     made.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is your explanation.  I heard that.  Thank

22     you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you tendered that document, Mr. Tieger?  We

24     have not assigned a number to it yet or have we?  No.

25             Madam Registrar.

Page 30880

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16187 receives number P7083,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I think we have time to follow-up on the question

 5     His Honour Judge Fluegge asked.

 6        Q.   He directed your attention to the rhetorical question you asked

 7     in response to my question and your comment was:  "Why would we want to

 8     take over power?"  And then you went on to mention that the central topic

 9     was how to join the part of Bosnia and Herzegovina that would recognise

10     federal laws and remain in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

11             Mr. Stanic, the fact was that you as president of the SAO Birac

12     government or AO Birac government, however you want to put it, were

13     determined to ensure that under no circumstances would the laws of an

14     independent -- sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina affect

15     any Serbian household; correct?

16        A.   Yes, that commitment of ours was not in dispute.  We had the

17     support of the people for this position via the referendum and so that

18     was our position.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is misquoted.  It

21     says an independent sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The date of the

22     minutes is the 12th of February, 1992, but the document of the

23     Prosecution has a different date as to the proclamation of an independent

24     state.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I believe the question was the witness's

Page 30881

 1     determination to prevent an independent -- the laws of an independent

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina from affecting Serb households whenever that

 3     transpired.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was the question, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore -- but could you say where exactly then

 7     Mr. Tieger misquoted the document, what word he used which is not

 8     consistent with what is in the document, Mr. Stojanovic?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Your microphone is --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Tieger on

13     page 45, line 14, 15, and 16, and 17, spoke about an independent

14     sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina in the context of the conclusions from the

15     meeting of the 18th of February, 1992.  Bosnia and Herzegovina became

16     independent after this date according to documents --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Haven't you listened to the response by Mr. Tieger?

18     Mr. Tieger asked what -- whether there was a determination to ensure that

19     never such a thing would happen, which doesn't require that there is

20     already an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It is aiming at it never

21     happening that in an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, so therefore the

22     objection is denied.  And I would advise you to carefully listen to the

23     response to -- of Mr. Tieger before you -- and to my comment on that

24     before you raise the matter again.

25             Please proceed.

Page 30882

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Well, perhaps --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's time for a break perhaps but --

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We're near to a time for a break if this would be a

 5     suitable moment.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to show a document that's directly

 7     related to this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's do that and take the break after.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  65 ter 31916.

10        Q.   This will be very quick, Mr. Stanic, before the break.  It's an

11     article entitled:  "Overnight to Serbia," from an issue of Politika on

12     5 March 1992, dateline Zvornik Vlasenica 4 March --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which part of the B/C/S version, please?

14             MR. TIEGER:  It's top right, Your Honour.

15        Q.   And I'm just going to refer to one portion of the document where

16     you're quoted, Mr. Stanic, and I think that's the second paragraph to the

17     end where you say:

18             "We shall under no circumstances let any" -- he referred to

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina's independence, that is, the possibility of the

20     event of a declaration of its independence and state that:

21             "... we shall, under no circumstances, let any of its laws,

22     regulations, or similar, enter a Serbian household, said Milenko Stanic,

23     Prime Minister of the SAO Birac."

24             So just to confirm, Mr. Stanic, that's a reflection of what you

25     said before about your determination to prevent the possibility of the

Page 30883

 1     laws of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina from entering

 2     a Serbian household?

 3        A.   This Bosnia and Herzegovina that was being created --

 4        Q.   Mr. Stanic --

 5        A.   -- by Alija Izetbegovic you see here --

 6        Q.   Mr. Stanic, excuse me, I --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first could you please answer the question,

 8     whether this reflects what you said.  You were not asked yet to explain

 9     what you said, but first whether it reflects what you said.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a lot of free

11     interpretation by the journalist here.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this reflect what you said?  And if not, would

13     you then tell us, not to explain what you meant, but tell us what you

14     then said if this is not what you said.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the laws of this

16     independent and sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina that was being created

17     by the Party of Democratic Action, SDA, headed by Alija Izetbegovic,

18     could not operate on the territories inhabited by the Serbian people.

19     And there are some more mistakes here.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government, the

22     Executive Council, the SAO, the autonomous region was being created,

23     et cetera.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you explain why in this article again you are

25     referred to be Prime Minister of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac?

Page 30884

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can I put it?  I introduced

 2     myself by my proper title, president of the Executive Council of the

 3     Autonomous Region or the Autonomous District.  I don't know how the

 4     journalist perceived it.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, but I just -- if I may, I apologise.

 7        Q.   Mr. Stanic, the explanation is pretty clear, isn't it?  As you

 8     explained before, the Executive Council at the municipal level, and also

 9     at the regional level, is the equivalent of the government and so -- and

10     at the government level in the republic, the president of the government

11     is called the prime minister.  And so that's why this designation appears

12     here; right?

13        A.   Yes, that's an executive body.  It's an executive council and in

14     journalist practice they often call it the government.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender that document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31916 receives number P7084,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'll take a break of

22     20 minutes and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, while the witness is leaving the

24     courtroom, I would just mention that the excerpts from 65 ter 02334 have

25     been uploaded and provisionally assigned P7077.

Page 30885

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was done already -- oh, yes, we reserved

 3     that number for it.  Yes.  Admitted into evidence, P7077.

 4             We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I take it you've come to deal with the

 8     matter which was still on the agenda.  Now in order not to make you a

 9     hostage in this courtroom, I give you an opportunity to address the

10     matter immediately so that you are free if you wish to leave again.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  As I understand it, we are

12     here in relation to the document D758 and that one is the -- it was a

13     handwritten statement of an individual that also -- the original also

14     contained a typewritten telex of the same statement that had some changes

15     in the date, some typographical errors in the date, and the name of the

16     individual in question was incorrectly stated in the English translation.

17     We have received from CLSS a new translation.  It has been uploaded into

18     e-court, but I see that it still has the same wrong name for the

19     individual, the first name, as -- it's missing one letter.

20             And as to the dates, the date discrepancy is in the two original

21     documents, one handwritten and one typewritten, such that the CLSS would

22     not be able to change that date.  So we're left with two originals that

23     have a discrepancy in the date, one says 1953, one says 1956.  I don't

24     know what Your Honours want to do with that.  We could perhaps keep it --

25     split it into two documents maybe and then have a translation made of the

Page 30886

 1     second document or I don't know how to address that where we have two

 2     B/C/S originals from the original source that have differing dates for

 3     what purports to be the same source document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I could imagine that the parties agree that if

 5     there are two original documents about an event that certainly there must

 6     have been an event, and therefore that both versions -- where it may be

 7     very difficult at this moment to decide on which is the most accurate

 8     one, that we admit both into evidence and that the parties can argue

 9     whatever they want on the basis of the two versions and make us believe

10     which version is better than the other one and why.

11             If that would be a solution, Mr. Tieger -- because let's not

12     forget there are two documents in existence, and to that extent, of

13     course, you can have in evidence two documents --

14             MR. TIEGER:  I wasn't privy to earlier discussions, but it sounds

15     like a very Solomon-like resolution -- sort of actually the opposite of a

16     Solomon-like resolution but ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Ivetic, where you said there was still

18     something with the name, is that -- is there a translation error in it or

19     is it -- or transcription error or is that also one of the divergent

20     elements of these two documents?

21             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honours, both the handwritten and the

22     typewritten original have the gentleman's first name as S-e-n-a-i-d and

23     the English translation has S-e-n-a-d.  So it's either a typographical

24     error or a mistake as to the name.  I did not want to have us change the

25     official translation but we could also do that just to address that one

Page 30887

 1     clear discrepancy.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would -- if it's just one letter in a name,

 3     then perhaps we could live with that, all parties are -- unless it would

 4     be a matter which would create a lot of dispute.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I don't see it creating dispute.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Especially now that we've done it on the record it

 8     hopefully will be clear in everyone's minds what we're talking about.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, we can do two things.  If we make -- if

10     we separate them, then of course already in terms of numbers one would

11     easily lose sight of the other one.  So another possibility is to have

12     them all, both with the wrong translations in evidence under one number,

13     and that we then -- the description would then be:  "Two handwritten and

14     typewritten original versions of," and then what it is.  And that we have

15     two B/C/S pages and two -- one B/C/S version with English translation,

16     the other B/C/S version with English translation, have everything all

17     together.

18             MR. IVETIC:  In that case, Your Honours, we still do not have an

19     official CLSS translation of the handwritten.  I have not yet --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. IVETIC:  -- got word back on that, so we can't yet make it

22     formal.  But if we do it that way, I will make sure that both get into

23     e-court and both get linked to the appropriate original so we can tell

24     the translations apart.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I want to assist as much as possible while

Page 30888

 1     Mr. Ivetic is in the courtroom.  So let me say that insofar as the

 2     resolution of these translation issues is concerned, that makes perfect

 3     sense to me.  I apologise for not being more conversant with this

 4     particular issue and if the -- if the underlying issue was related to --

 5     in any way to anything more than the translations, that is, if there was

 6     a some sort of provenance issue or authenticity issue or anything else,

 7     then I'm not in a position to speak on that.  But as I say, in terms of

 8     the solutions the Court has devised on the spot for these translation --

 9     not translation but these smallish discrepancies we've been talking about

10     for a document that is otherwise coming in, then I'm in agreement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I thought that was the only issues that we had with

13     the document when we MFI'd it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             MR. IVETIC:  It's from November so my memory's a little --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's do the following:  The translations will be

17     verified.  Both originals will be part of the exhibit with verified

18     translations for each version we'll finally then admit into evidence,

19     unless any of the parties will come up with any other disputed matter in

20     relation to those documents.  If we proceed like that and if you would

21     let us know when everything would be uploaded, then we could proceed like

22     that.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just ask a question here.  Is it the

24     position that in fact the typewritten document was typewritten by the

25     same author of the handwritten one?

Page 30889

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I don't know, Your Honours.  I think as I recall

 2     from the witness who was on the stand, he wasn't sure if that was done by

 3     the same individual or if someone else in the police where the statement

 4     was taken had prepared the typewritten version after receiving the

 5     handwritten version.  I believe that's my recollection of the testimony

 6     of the witness as to this document.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But would --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's my recollection that the witness testified that

 9     he thought that a colleague would have done it.  That is my recollection,

10     but again I'm not giving a guarantee for it.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But logic and this explanation seem to suggest

12     that, in fact, the handwritten one would be the original and the other

13     one is a transcription.  Is it --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours, but of course in terms -- when I

15     say "original," I mean original language from the original source.  They

16     both came to us as originals in the B/C/S language together, and then of

17     course the CLSS does a translation.  And I think they only did a

18     translation of the typewritten one, assuming that the documents are --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Identical.

20             MR. IVETIC:  -- identical, which we now find they may not be

21     which is why we need to seek the --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do understand that.  The point I'm making is the

23     author would probably have written in his hand or her hand and somebody

24     who speaks the same language would have typed exactly what was typed

25     there and probably made a mistake in typing.

Page 30890

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the handwritten one seems to me on logic to be

 3     the original and the one that should be relied on.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But as far as I understand, we have not

 5     explored this issue from that point of view yet.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we only noticed that there was a translation

 8     issue and there were two originals.  And whether now the transcribing

 9     person intentionally changed it or whether -- what the purpose or the

10     thoughts behind it are or whether it's just a mistake has not been

11     explored.  And I think it's in that area where I suggested that if any

12     party would like to argue anything on such matters that we would hear

13     from them, but that is not a reason as such not to admit both, both

14     documents originating from a source.  I do not even know whether the

15     typewritten version was the first one and then copied in handwriting.

16     That's still -- theoretically still a possibility as well.  We have not

17     explored that.  Once it's in evidence, the parties may argue whatever

18     they want about the probative value of each of the versions and what it

19     exactly would prove.

20             MR. TIEGER:  And just to confirm, Mr. President, I appreciate the

21     conditional nature of the Court's discussion about this so far, I have

22     now confirmed that the original objection to the admission of this

23     document did not revolve around the issues we've just discussed, that is,

24     the -- but instead, on the issue of whether a sufficient foundation was

25     laid and the information about the document, the more conventional types

Page 30891

 1     of objections that have been made to documents of this nature.  That can

 2     be found at transcript 28028 through 29.  And so we're -- well, you've

 3     resolved part of the potential -- the major part of the issue still

 4     remains as --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 6             MR. TIEGER:  -- raised by the Prosecution at the time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now after this discussion, Mr. Ivetic continues to

 8     take care that translations are there, proper translation, everything is

 9     uploaded.  And then you will consider, Mr. Tieger, whether the objections

10     still stand; and if they do, we will decide on those as part of our

11     decision on admission apart from the other technical aspects.  I leave it

12     to that.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honour, may I then be excused from the

16     courtroom to attend to other matters.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was the whole purpose, Mr. Ivetic, to not

18     to wait for any later moment.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Stanic.  We needed a bit of time

23     for administrative matters so you had to wait a little bit longer.

24     Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 30892

 1        Q.   Mr. Stanic, just to bring you back to where we were, we had been

 2     discussing before the adjournment the issues surrounding the conclusion

 3     about taking power and the determination that the laws of a sovereign and

 4     independent Bosnia would not enter Serbian households.  By the end of

 5     May 1992, the government of the SAO Birac had passed a decision on -- or

 6     at least had resolved the issue of the determination of the borders of

 7     the region and had passed a decision on the "safe moving out of the

 8     Muslims."  Correct?

 9        A.   We discussed that, yes.

10             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection if we could call up P3737.

11        Q.   This is a "Javnost" article dated 6 June 1992 about reporting on

12     decisions of 30 May 1992, indicating in part:

13             "The Government of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac

14     determined the borders of this region on 30 May ..."

15             And goes on to note it sent an invitation to the representatives

16     of neighbouring municipalities.  And it further notes:

17             "At the same time, a decision was passed on the 'safe moving out

18     of Muslims from that area' ..."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads "moving," not "moving out," but -- at least

20     that's what I --

21             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, I'm sorry, correct, "safe moving of Muslims from

22     that area ..."

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   And that was the -- so this reflects the decision that you

Page 30893

 1     confirmed a moment ago; correct?

 2        A.   All the municipalities in the region had a problem because there

 3     were many implications from the populace to move out and to go to other

 4     areas.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  You start

 6     explaining what you consider relevant to explain, whereas Mr. Tieger puts

 7     a question to you and we would first like to hear an answer to that

 8     question.  And if any further explanation is required, the parties will

 9     ask for it or the Bench.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Right.  So the -- just if you -- I'll give you a chance to

13     explain if that's necessary, but I would appreciate, as the Court

14     indicated, an answer to my question and that is:  This article reflects

15     the decision that you confirmed a moment ago when I asked you about that;

16     right?

17        A.   This is a journalistic story.

18        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I asked you about whether or not by the end of May

19     the Government of SAO Birac had determined the borders of the region and

20     passed a decision on the safe moving out of the Muslims, and you

21     confirmed that --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger --

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   Or you confirmed that you discussed that --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's be clear on that, although then --

Page 30894

 1     already then you didn't ask -- answer the question.  Did you only discuss

 2     it or was any decision taken?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no decision.  We

 4     discussed both that and the other issue.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Now, first of all, you say looking at this article which states

 8     clearly that a determination was made and a decision was passed, you

 9     state:

10             "This is a journalistic story."

11             Now, when asked about this article in the Karadzic case you

12     stated something of a similar nature, saying you didn't know what

13     "Javnost" was and what this was about; right?

14        A.   As far as I can remember, we did not talk about that in the

15     Karadzic case.  A different attorney was on the side of the OTP.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, was it discussed in the Karadzic case,

17     irrespective of who asked you the questions?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, your comment was wrong.  The question was:

20             "Now, when asked about this article in the Karadzic case ..."

21             That was the question.  It didn't refer to who asked you that

22     question.

23             Mr. Tieger.

24             And then Mr. Tieger summarised what you said, that you came up

25     with similar comments like that you didn't know what "Javnost" was and

Page 30895

 1     what this was all about.  Is that what you said at the time?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

 3     You're asking me to say yes or no to a question that can't be answered

 4     with a yes or no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter 31909.

 7        Q.   That's your testimony in the Karadzic case, Mr. Stanic, and I

 8     want to turn your attention to what you said at page 43, transcript page

 9     in Karadzic 34024.

10             "Q.  This is a 'Javnost' article of the 6th of June, 1992.  So

11     when they make reference to the decision made by the government of the

12     Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac, that didn't -- you're saying that

13     this newspaper must be wrong as well?

14             "A.  I am seeing this document for the first time.  I would need

15     to review it in detail.  'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is

16     and what is the source of information like this --"

17             So that was your testimony about -- in connection with this

18     article when first asked in the Karadzic case, Mr. Stanic; correct?

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   Now, I want to take a look at this mysterious "Javnost" that you

21     purport not to know about.

22             MR. TIEGER:  First of all, can we turn to 65 ter 14321.

23        Q.   This is a document dated 13 September 1990 which shows us the

24     origin of "Javnost" under the heading:  "Decision to launch the

25     Javnost ... newspaper ..." and it goes on to describe its -- the

Page 30896

 1     objectives for "Javnost" as providing information, among other things,

 2     about the SDS as a political factor.

 3             So this document confirms, does it not, Mr. Stanic, that the --

 4     that "Javnost" was launched by, established by, the SDS, this is signed

 5     by Dr. Karadzic, for the purpose of expounding the views, among other

 6     things -- for the purpose of expounding, among other things, the views of

 7     the SDS?

 8        A.   I never said I didn't know what "Javnost" was.  I said I was

 9     seeing this newspaper story for the first time.  That's the mistake.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said more.  Could it be read to the

11     witness, Mr. Tieger, could you -- I don't have it on my screen any

12     further at this moment.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   This is what you said to the Trial Chamber in the Karadzic case:

15             "'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is ..."

16        A.   I think I didn't say that.  Maybe if the question was put to me,

17     maybe it didn't specify that it was published in the "Javnost."  I know

18     what "Javnost" is.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Witness, are you telling us that what is

20     recorded is not accurate?  Then we'll check it on the basis of the audio

21     because as it was read out to you, you clearly referred yourself to

22     "Javnost" as it was recorded.  And then you said:  "I don't know whose

23     magazine that is ..."  So you yourself used the name and you yourself are

24     recorded as having said:  "I don't know whose magazine that is," whereas

25     today you tell us that you know what "Javnost" is and whose magazine that

Page 30897

 1     is.  If you say:  That's not what I said at the time, we'll verify it

 2     because such a clear contradiction should be verified before we draw any

 3     conclusions.  If you say you didn't say it, then we'll verify it.  Please

 4     tell us whether we have to do that.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this text for the first time,

 6     the one that was published.  I don't recall any questions regarding

 7     "Javnost".  If it was put to me --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, a minute ago you said you didn't say this.

 9     You also said that you do not whether "Javnost" was part of the question.

10             "Maybe if the question was put to me, maybe it didn't specify

11     that it was published in the 'Javnost.'"

12             As we read it to you, it's not only that the question was about

13     "Javnost" but even you yourself referred to "Javnost" as the magazine you

14     didn't know what it was.  If you say that's what -- I accept that that's

15     what I said, then we take that.  If you say:  No, that's not what I said,

16     then we'll verify on the basis of audio.  Do we have to verify it, yes or

17     no?  That's my question.  Do you still deny that you said that at the

18     time?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would need to look at the

20     transcript of that trial in detail in order to make sure.  So my answer

21     is:  I knew what "Javnost" was but I saw the text for the first time --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that's all clearly recorded there.  It's

23     just the two lines, you don't have to read the whole of the transcript,

24     it's just verification of those two lines.  Do we need to verify it on

25     the basis of the audio?  And if you say -- if you don't give an answer to

Page 30898

 1     that question, as you didn't do two or three times, then we'll have it

 2     verified anyhow.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I gave the answer.  I know

 4     what "Javnost" is but I don't know the text.  It was the first time that

 5     I saw it.  That was my answer.  If it was different in the previous

 6     session, then I would need to know the context in order to know why I

 7     said that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Why you said that, that means that you admit that

 9     you said it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not accepting it.  I'm just

11     saying that the question was perhaps unclear.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it will be verified on the basis of the audio.

13             Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   And for the record, Mr. Stanic, the context is that you were

16     asked about an article in "Javnost," which we see in P7077 is referred to

17     as the Official Gazette of the Serbian people, which states that the

18     government of SAO Birac made a decision on the safe moving of the

19     Muslims.  And you responded by saying:  "I would need -- I'm seeing this

20     document for the first time, I would need to review it in detail.

21     'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is."  That's the context.

22     And now the Court is asking you whether you admit that you said that or

23     we need to go back to the tape and have it verified?

24        A.   There were about ten "Javnost" publications.  Perhaps I was not

25     told that it was "Javnost" that was published in Pale and that's why I

Page 30899

 1     said I don't know the context in which the question is put, but now I

 2     gave the answer to your question.  I know what "Javnost" is but I did not

 3     see that text.

 4        Q.   And you've said --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stanic, we've heard enough about what you said

 6     about this matter and the Chamber considers it best to have it verified

 7     on the basis of the audio.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Did you and the government of the SAO Birac determine the borders

11     of the region, or do you dispute that too?

12        A.   We proposed the towns and citizens that would become part of the

13     area and we proposed that to the Government of Republika Srpska.  We

14     proposed that as the basis for future negotiations.

15        Q.   So you didn't simply discuss it.  You determined what you

16     considered they should be and then you raised it at the republic level;

17     correct?

18        A.   We couldn't determine that because we were not authorised to do

19     that.  We just reviewed it on the basis of the deputies comprising the

20     Assembly and their proposals as to which regions could become part of

21     Republika Srpska.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's cut matters short again.  Earlier you said:

23     We didn't decide, we discussed it.  Now I do understand that you

24     discussed it and that resulted in proposals that were made.

25             Please proceed.

Page 30900

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  Correct.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I failed to tender 65 ter 14321.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14321 receives number P7085,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   I'm going to turn your attention to one of the meetings you

10     talked about when asked questions in direct examination.

11             MR. TIEGER:  That's at P353, page 248 of the English and 246 of

12     the B/C/S.  That's the meeting in Zvornik -- and when I referred to 246

13     of the Serbian, that's in the transcribed version.

14        Q.   We see at that meeting, Mr. Stanic, that you began, once you had

15     the floor, by saying:

16             "We have defined the western borders in the area of the Birac

17     region" --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S version is not on the screen.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now there it is.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   Did that reflect the discussion and determination that was

23     reflected in the article regarding May 30th or had further steps been

24     taken toward the definition of the boundaries of the area of the Birac

25     region between May 30th and this meeting on June 30th?

Page 30901

 1        A.   We proposed the boundaries.  "Defined" seems to indicate more it

 2     was a decision.  We could not suggest or propose a decision, it was not

 3     in our remit, but we could suggest the municipalities, the areas that

 4     could become part of Republika Srpska.  The general wrote here,

 5     "definisali," "defined," I don't think that I used that term, but I used

 6     the term "predlozili smo," "we suggested."

 7        Q.   All right.  That's one part of what was discussed in the Javnost

 8     article.  Let me turn to the other part and that is the decision on the

 9     safe moving of the Muslims which you say was not a decision but merely a

10     discussion.

11             MR. TIEGER:  And in that respect I'd like to call P190 -- yes,

12     P190, please.

13        Q.   This is an order from Commander Andric of the Birac Brigade dated

14     31 May 1992.

15             "Pursuant to the decision of the 'Birac' Serb Autonomous Region

16     government which regulates the moving out of the Muslim population from

17     the territory of the 'Birac' SAR ..."

18             Just like the Javnost article, Mr. Stanic, this is a reflection

19     of the fact that the Birac government, Serbian Autonomous Region

20     government, issued a decision on the moving or moving out of the Muslim

21     population from its territory; correct?

22        A.   I state that it is not.

23        Q.   So both the Official Gazette of the Serbian people Javnost and

24     Commander Andric, the very day after the decision, referred to a decision

25     which according to you had never happened; is that your explanation?

Page 30902

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, the final item on the order in P190 states that:

 3             "The Prime Minister of the 'Birac' SAR is to establish contact

 4     urgently regarding negotiations on the exchange of prisoners."

 5             Now, as we've established before, the reference to prime minister

 6     of Birac SAR is a reference to you, Mr. Stanic; correct?

 7        A.   It is nowhere recorded that a soldier can order the president of

 8     the Assembly what to do.  What he wrote --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, whether it could be written, whether there

10     was any authority to do that, that was not the question.  The question

11     was whether you agree that the reference to the prime minister of the

12     Birac SAR would be a reference to you.  That's the question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the signatory meant, I don't

14     know.  It's possible that he meant me, but he could not have issued these

15     orders to me on any basis whatsoever.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, again you think it necessary to add what you

17     find important, whereas the question simply was whether he referred to

18     you.  You've answered that question that he possibly has done so.

19             Next question, please, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   What this indicates is that you were either to receive a copy of

22     this so that Andric's concern that you undertake action regarding

23     exchange of prisoners can be communicated or that he had already

24     communicated with you about it; right?

25        A.   I saw this document when I came here to testify in the

Page 30903

 1     Radovan Karadzic case for the first time.  It was not addressed to me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please answer the question again,

 3     otherwise we'll have to do without your testimony.  If you don't answer

 4     the questions, then we'll just look at the documents and have to do,

 5     unfortunately, without your testimony on the matters you were asked

 6     about.

 7             Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Is it your testimony, Mr. Stanic, that nobody, either

10     Major Andric personally or an emissary conveying this concern,

11     communicated to you the concerns about the perceived need for exchanges

12     of prisoners?

13        A.   Your question was:  Did you receive this document?  And I said

14     no.  And I'm also saying that nobody conveyed to me, including

15     Mr. Andric, that a document like this exists.  I saw it for the first

16     time when I came here to testify in the Karadzic case.  I don't know.

17     Perhaps there were problems in the interpretation, but I cannot answer

18     differently to the questions that are being put to me.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stanic, who was the prime minister of Birac

20     SAR on the 31st of May, 1992?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the president of the

22     Executive Board.  I already stated that.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On that day?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that now.  I said

25     that they had two Executive Board meetings and two Assembly sessions --

Page 30904

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about sessions --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I think that we --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about sessions.  I want to know

 4     if you have been the prime minister or the president on the 31st of May,

 5     1992?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about those meetings --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm not asking you about -- stop --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because after that -- after

 9     those meetings there were no --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, I'm not asking about any meeting.  Have

11     you been the president on the 31st of May, 1992, yes or no?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure that the autonomous

13     region was working at that time.  I think that it had stopped working.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was your position on the 31st of May, 1992?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President of the Municipal Assembly

16     of Vlasenica.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was very difficult to elicit this answer

18     from you.  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, but I would have one

20     very simple question.

21             Carefully listen to the question and answer it directly.  Did

22     anyone discuss with you or were you in any way involved in negotiations

23     on the exchange of prisoners briefly after the 31st of May, 1992?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Vlasenica we

25     had formed a commission which contacted the Muslim side, but at the

Page 30905

 1     regional level there were no such negotiations and there was no

 2     commission.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask about a level, I didn't ask whether a

 4     committee on the other side was established.  So I do understand that

 5     implicitly you're saying that you were involved at the municipal level in

 6     negotiations or at least communications about the exchange of prisoners?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not personally.  Not as a municipal

 8     official or a regional official, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If not officially, unofficially what did you do, you

10     personally?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is not clear to me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you were not officially involved.  Then I'd

13     like to know how you were then involved if not officially.  What then

14     exactly was your involvement?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't participate in it.  I

16     didn't take part.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you do?  If you say:  I didn't do anything

18     in this respect, then it would have been easier that your previous answer

19     would have been:  I was not involved, I never discussed it with anyone.

20     Did you personally do anything in this context?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this, no, nothing.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do, Mr. Tieger, let me just clarify a

24     little point here.

25             Judge Fluegge asked you a question:  What was your position on

Page 30906

 1     the 31st of May, 1992?  You then said that you were president of the

 2     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica.  I ask you a question.  On that same

 3     day, 31st of May, were you also not the president of the Birac SAO?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date when the -- that Assembly

 5     stopped functioning is not specifically known.  At that time there were

 6     no --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Executive Board or Assembly

 9     meetings being held at that time.  We had stopped working.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now I don't understand your answer because you say

11     the date when that Assembly stopped functioning is not specifically

12     known.  Now, you -- in the same breath you say that the Executive Board

13     or Assembly meetings were being held at that time.  You had stopped

14     working.  You can't say you didn't know, you don't know the date, and

15     then say on that date you were not working.  Those are two inconsistent

16     questions -- answers.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Executive Council did not work

18     because the organs did not convene.  After this second session of the

19     Assembly --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to make sure that we are clear, can you just

21     answer my question directly, yes or no.  On the 31st of May, 1992, were

22     you not the president of the Birac SAO?  Just say yes or no.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those organs after --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again I'm going to stop you --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the second session --

Page 30907

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to stop you.  I'm insisting on

 2     whether -- just say yes or no.  Were you on the 31st of May, 1992, the

 3     president of the Birac SAO?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not divested of that function

 5     ever because the organs never convened.  The organs died off, they ceased

 6     to exist.  For as long as they functioned, I had that post --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you -- no, no, no --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the last session was held and

 9     after that --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Look, I stop you, I stop you.  The record will

11     show that you don't want to answer my question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   Mr. Stanic, in late May and June 1992, you knew very well that

15     the number of Muslims who were being detained and imprisoned was mounting

16     and becoming a problem, as reflected by the concern we see from Andric in

17     his order.

18        A.   We had the information.

19        Q.   For example, in the other one of the meetings with General Mladic

20     that you referred to in your testimony earlier this morning in direct

21     examination, that is, the June 25th meeting, you told Mladic that:

22             "Over 800 prisoners, 200 of whom are women and children who were

23     brought last night, pose a problem."

24        A.   In preparation for the meeting with the Main Staff, I received

25     information from the president of the Executive Board that last night a

Page 30908

 1     few buses had arrived with prisoners who were placed at the secondary

 2     school.  I informed the General about this.  I did not know the exact

 3     number, but at the meeting one of those people who were present mentioned

 4     these numbers in the secondary school or the total number.  We did not

 5     have the precise information.  I don't think that anyone at that meeting

 6     knew that.

 7        Q.   Now, by that time the Susica camp had already been established;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   As I said, that was a reception centre.  In the beginning it was

10     a reception centre.

11        Q.   What is the camp that Major Andric orders be set up in Vlasenica

12     in item 1 of his order of May 31st?

13        A.   Evidently that was not specified.  At the time the army -- well,

14     perhaps that was -- actually, it wasn't because General Andric belonged

15     to units of the Yugoslav People's Army, which later transformed.  And

16     some of those members remained in the region and he probably meant the

17     buildings that were owned by the Territorial Defence, or rather, the army

18     and those were the ones in Susica.  The secondary school centre was our

19     problem where also that night a certain number of prisoners were brought

20     in.

21        Q.   So these prisoners were brought to the school rather than Susica

22     because Susica was already full itself?

23        A.   I don't know that that was so.  I just received information just

24     before the meeting that there was a substantial number of prisoners in

25     the secondary school centre.  I think the director of the secondary

Page 30909

 1     school centre asked the president of the Executive Board to submit

 2     information about that so that he could prepare the secondary school to

 3     begin work.

 4        Q.   And whatever you call Susica, reception centre or camp as Andric

 5     did, you knew by June 25th that there were hundreds and hundreds of

 6     Muslims detained in Susica or present in Susica; right?

 7        A.   I didn't know the numbers, but I did know that there was a

 8     reception centre.

 9        Q.   And the reason there were hundreds of people in Susica and

10     hundreds of people taken to the school in Vlasenica is because of

11     Andric's orders to move women and children out of Muslim villages and

12     take the men to collection centres; isn't that right?

13        A.   I don't know that that was the only reason.  I think that this

14     order of Andric's referred more to the problem of prisoners from the area

15     of the Kalesija municipality.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you say you don't know whether that's the

17     only reason.  It was one of the reasons, I understand from that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the reasons.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I was told we break at 1.20.  I guess we're there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we're there.

22             Could the witness -- we'll take a break and we'd like to see you

23     back in 20 minutes.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask the Chamber, I have a

25     small request, please.

Page 30910

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Depends on what it is.  If it's appropriate, please

 2     put the question to us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It concerns our work and the

 4     adjournment.  I've been here since Saturday.  I've come to testify and

 5     I'm prepared to work for the next three days uninterruptedly but on

 6     Monday I have obligations and commitments at work that I cannot postpone.

 7     So I would appreciate it if we could continue working until we finish.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- we'll consider whether that's possible.

 9     You certainly would have assisted us by directly answering the questions

10     because it took quite a lot of time to take you back to what was really

11     asked.  But we'll consider it.  You may now follow the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, in this context could you give us an

14     indication as to where we stand in terms of time?

15             MR. TIEGER:  I certainly -- I'll finish -- I believe I'll finish

16     today, although, as the Court has noted, my projections have been skewed

17     by the nature of -- well, the indirect responses.  But I'm still trying

18     and I had anticipated being able to finish well in advance of the end of

19     the session.  That's not quite as certain, but I'll do my best to do

20     that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an indication, as

22     matters stand now, how much time you would need?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it would take more

24     than two to three minutes, I think.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we try to conclude the evidence

Page 30911

 1     of this witness today so that we can meet his wishes to return.  We'll

 2     take a break and make it a bit shorter now, take a break of 17 minutes.

 3     We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we've considered your request.  Everyone

 8     will do their utmost best to conclude your testimony today.  You

 9     certainly could help by just directly answering the questions and only

10     answering the questions.  And if we fail to do that, we'll continue not

11     until Monday.

12             Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I had asked you about the mounting problem of

15     hundreds and hundreds of Muslims detained and whether or not the Andric

16     orders were responsible for that.  In that connection let me show you two

17     of those orders.  The first is 65 ter 31907.  This is an order dated the

18     26th of May, 1992, which directs, among other things:

19             "Move women and children out of the Muslim villages to Kalesija

20     and Gracanica, whereas the men are to be taken away to collection

21     centres."

22             And then if we could look quickly at P466, an order two days

23     later, another order from Major Andric, this one the 28th of May.  In

24     item 6 we see the provision:

25             "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and

Page 30912

 1     co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried

 2     out.  Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military

 3     service are to be placed in camps for exchange."

 4             These two orders, Mr. Stanic, produced the ever-increasing

 5     problem with the number of Muslim prisoners, some of whom were brought to

 6     Susica, some of whom, as you earlier noted, were initially at least

 7     brought to the school; correct?

 8        A.   Probably.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 65 ter 31907.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31907 receives number P7086,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Stanic, we discussed the decision of the Birac SAR government

17     regulating the moving out of the Muslim population, reflected in the

18     31 May Andric order [Realtime transcript read in error "article"] and the

19     6 June Javnost article.  The moving out of the Muslims was, indeed,

20     precisely what was envisioned by republic-level and Birac-level officials

21     in order to define the borders of the Serbian state; correct?

22        A.   No, that's not correct.

23        Q.   Well, let's look at what the president of the SDS Executive Board

24     and the co-ordinator for the Birac region said in late July 1992 at the

25     17th Assembly Session.

Page 30913

 1             MR. TIEGER:  That's P4581.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tieger, when you referred to the text signed

 3     by -- on the 31st of May by Andric, that was an order, isn't it?  It is

 4     not an article as recorded.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I certainly intended to say "order."  Thank you for

 6     that.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said "order."

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Let's turn first to pages 71 through 72 in the

 9     English, and 73 through 74 in the B/C/S.  So we turn to 71 first in

10     English and in B/C/S 73.  Better -- okay.  If we turn back one page in

11     the Serbian, please.  In the Serbian, not the English.  So in the Serbian

12     we see the beginning of Mr. Dukic's speech.  Thank you.  Now we see the

13     beginning in English.  Now if we turn to the next page in English,

14     please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The speech starts at the bottom of the page.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.  Okay.

17             There we see Mr. Dukic talking about borders and he says:

18             "We say that borders are drawn in the field.  The people draw the

19     borders, you must admit the state of facts ..."

20             And he continues, and that's in the middle of the page in English

21     you can see:

22             "So the option is to take at least as much as belongs to us and I

23     will tell you that we have not even come close to that ..."

24             And if we can continue on to the next page in English and in

25     Serbian, please.  And perhaps one more page in the Serbian.

Page 30914

 1             Mr. Dukic had earlier asked:

 2             "So I'm asking you, gentlemen, why we expelled all Muslim judges

 3     from Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik," and he concludes with his

 4     description saying:

 5             "If we move further there is Birac which is 100 to" -- he had

 6     been talking about Bijeljina at one point.

 7             "If we move further there is Birac which is 100 to 108 kilometres

 8     away and has 120.000 Muslims - that is how many there were, but I hope

 9     that has at least been halved - and 90.000 Serbs."

10             That's a reflection of the understanding as expressed by the

11     president of the SDS Executive Board and the co-ordinator of the Birac

12     region that drawing the borders means the reduction of the Muslims within

13     the areas defined as Serbian; correct?

14        A.   I cannot comment on what Rajko Dukic said.

15        Q.   He was a leading republic-level official.  He was the

16     co-ordinator of the Birac region who was at meetings with you.  He's

17     telling the Assembly, the Bosnian Serb Assembly what the objective is and

18     what he hopes will be accomplished, that corresponds with what we see

19     accomplished in the orders that we looked at a few moments ago.  That's a

20     reflection of the common understanding regarding the need for moving out

21     of the Muslims from the areas that were to be Serbian.  Isn't that the

22     truth?

23        A.   Muslims left Vlasenica under different circumstances, different

24     from what you're trying to say.

25        Q.   Mr. Stanic, you've already acknowledged that the Andric orders,

Page 30915

 1     at least in part, were responsible for the mounting number of Muslims who

 2     were detained in Susica and, as you're well aware, later moved either to

 3     Batkovic or exchanged.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And as we see now from Dukic, that's the implementation of a

 6     particular desire and objective, to reduce the Muslim population?

 7        A.   It's possible, but I can't comment on his contribution to this

 8     debate.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, let's move on.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 40 you state, that is, paragraph 40 of

12     your statement, you state that:

13             "We were not even able to ask the opinion of the leadership in

14     Sarajevo and later in Pale on any problems because the telephone lines

15     were mostly down and travelling on the roads was not safe."

16             And then you further state that you "often went to other

17     municipalities and consulted them in order to establish how they resolved

18     certain problems."

19             Now, first let me briefly address your representations with

20     respect to communications.  The fact is, Mr. Stanic, that communications

21     were considerably better than you suggest here, that you received

22     information from Pale and you in Vlasenica got information back to Pale

23     during the period April, May, and June?

24        A.   Many people lost their lives on those roads.  As to your

25     assessment, our communications may have been better compared to some

Page 30916

 1     others.

 2        Q.   Well, let's take a look very quickly - and I say "quickly" in a

 3     continuing effort to conclude today if we can - at some of those

 4     communications and I want to show you first a series of three documents

 5     relating to the appointment of Mr. Djokanovic, the war commissioner who's

 6     mentioned in your statement.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  So the first one would be 65 ter 16217.  This is a

 8     document dated the 10th of June, 1992, it's Djokanovic's appointment by

 9     Dr. Karadzic as commissioner.  And it refers also to the decision on the

10     establishment of war commissions of 10 June of the same date.

11             The next document I want to show you is P3737 -- sorry, 3735.  My

12     apologies.

13        Q.   This is a document dated the 16th of June, six days later, and

14     reflects the appointment of the War Commission in Vlasenica municipality

15     by Dr. Djokanovic and you pursuant to the decision of the Bosnian Serb

16     Presidency six days earlier.  So on 10 June, Dr. Karadzic makes a

17     decision.  On 16 June, you and Djokanovic appoint the War Commission;

18     correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Now if we could turn to P3046.

21        Q.   This is a document the very next day, that is June 17th, in which

22     Dr. Karadzic confirms the appointments of the members of the War

23     Commission named in the 16 June document; right?

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   So the chronology is:  On the 10th of June, Pale issues a

Page 30917

 1     decision, that is, Dr. Karadzic.  On the 16th of June, Vlasenica issues a

 2     decision, that's you and Mr. Djokanovic.  And on the 17th of June, Pale,

 3     that is, Dr. Karadzic, confirms the decision.  Correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And let me tender 65 ter 16217 in that case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16217 receives number P7087,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TIEGER:  One more short series that are this time two

12     documents reflecting communications between Pale and Vlasenica.  If I

13     could first have P3982.

14        Q.   This is a document dated the 29th of April, 1992, emanating from

15     the Serbian Autonomous District of Birac Crisis Staff.  It is pursuant to

16     the decision of the Council for National Security of the Serbian Republic

17     of BH on general mobilisation.  And as we see above, it is received by

18     Bratunac -- you see the stamp, by Bratunac on the 30th of April, 1992.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Now, I indicated that it was -- or the document

20     indicates it was pursuant to the decision of the National Security

21     Council on general mobilisation.  In that connection if we could have

22     65 ter 02479.

23        Q.   This is a record of the session of the National Security Council

24     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the government held on

25     the 27th of April, 1992.  And if we look down the page at about the third

Page 30918

 1     paragraph it provides:

 2             "It was decided to conduct full-scale mobilisation ..."

 3             So, Mr. Stanic, the chronology was:  Pale, that is, the NSC in

 4     this case, made a decision to conduct general or full-scale mobilisation.

 5     Birac acted on it two days later on the 29th of April, 1992, and that

 6     decision by the Birac region authorities was received by Bratunac the

 7     next day, on 30 April 1992; correct?

 8        A.   Not correct.

 9        Q.   Okay --

10        A.   If I may explain.

11        Q.   Yes, please.

12        A.   The previous document is a document which was wilfully signed by

13     Miroslav Deronjic for Bratunac.  There was no Crisis Staff that was

14     formed in the region and it did not function or operate, and for that

15     reason the document was processed or given a number only at the municipal

16     Assembly in Bratunac.

17        Q.   Just to clarify quickly.  Mr. Deronjic is another official on

18     SAO Birac; right?  We can find his name in one of the earlier documents

19     as a member, I believe, of the Political Council?

20        A.   I think that he was a deputy in the Assembly, but he was not a

21     member of the Executive Board of the region.  And he did not have the

22     authority to form a Crisis Staff.  I think we're talking about the

23     Crisis Staff in the municipality of Bratunac.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Tieger, I thought these documents you are

25     tendering them to show the efficiency of communication, irrespective of

Page 30919

 1     the merits of the document?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  That's exactly right.  I was going to get to that

 3     point just now.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you can get to that point.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Thanks.  And the issue about Deronjic and the

 6     Political Council will be resolved by the documents already in evidence.

 7        Q.   But the fact remains, Mr. Stanic, that Pale issued a decision on

 8     the 27th of April, 1992.  It was received no later than the

 9     29th of April.  And it was disseminated that that decision in response to

10     the Pale decision was disseminated and received by Bratunac, for example,

11     a day later; that's correct, right?

12        A.   Probably, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. TIEGER:  And thank you, Your Honour.  I tender 65 ter 02479.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2479 receives number P7088,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P7088 is admitted.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   And, Mr. Stanic, this will be my last issue and it continues to

21     focus on your assertion regarding both communication and how you

22     attempted to resolve it by speaking with representatives of

23     municipalities of adjacent or bordering municipalities, I take it.  And

24     let me put it to you simply in the interests of time and that is,

25     Mr. Stanic, when you conferred with representatives of adjacent

Page 30920

 1     municipalities -- let me simplify it this way.

 2             You were aware of the policies of the republic level not only by

 3     your contact with representatives of other municipalities but also

 4     through direct contact with the highest leadership of Republika Srpska,

 5     and that occurred, among other things, during your meeting of June 30th,

 6     1992, in Zvornik with Mr. Karadzic, General Mladic, and representatives

 7     of other municipalities?

 8        A.   Yes, the general policy of the Serbian Democratic Party I was

 9     familiar with.

10        Q.   And at that meeting the representative from Bratunac advised the

11     leadership that according to the -- and this is at page 258 of the

12     English, page 256 of the B/C/S transcribed version - advised that:

13             Although according to the last census it was 64/36 in favour of

14     Muslims, "in Bratunac municipality we now have two Muslims."

15             And the representative of Zvornik, Mr. Gruic, who was also a

16     member of the Political Council of the Birac region, told Mr. Karadzic

17     and General Mladic:

18             "We have successfully implemented the president's decision to

19     settle Divic and Kozluk with our children."

20             And the TO -- that's at page 249 through 250 of the English,

21     page 247 through 248 of the B/C/S transcribed version.

22             And Marko Pavlovic, the TO commander in Zvornik, told

23     Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic:

24             "We were most active in evicting the Muslims."

25             And noted further:

Page 30921

 1             "We had brought peace to Sepak, Divic, and Kozluk.  Some of them

 2     wanted to move out while we demanded it."

 3             That was at pages 253 through 254 of the English, 251 through 252

 4     of the B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Tieger, the transcript doesn't show the name

 6     of this document -- the title of the document that you're reading from.

 7     Can you --

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I'm so sorry.  That's P353, it's one of the Mladic

 9     notebooks.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Mr. Stanic, contrary to the suggestion in your statement, you in

13     fact not only had contact with municipal representatives, but contact

14     with them in the presence of the republic-level leadership during which

15     municipal representatives talked about their success in reducing the

16     number of Muslims in their population and explained how active they were

17     in evicting them.  And that's the truth of what you knew about the

18     policy, both from other representatives in municipalities and from

19     republic leaders themselves?

20        A.   I only had two meetings with Radovan Karadzic in 1992.  If that

21     is good communication, then I agree with your assertion.

22             MR. TIEGER:  That's all I have, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24             Mr. Stojanovic.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 30922

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Stanic, you have spoken at length here about

 2     the work of the Executive Council of the Autonomous District of Birac.

 3     Can you tell us, according to your best recollection, when the last

 4     meeting of the Executive Council of the Autonomous District of Birac was

 5     held?

 6        A.   It's difficult to give you the precise time.  Roughly I can say

 7     that this was in mid-May 1992, after which activities ceased.  And that's

 8     why I couldn't answer with a yes or a no.  We were not divested of our

 9     posts, but we did not continue with our work.

10        Q.   And after this meeting in mid-May 1992 of the Executive Board of

11     the Birac Autonomous Region, was there any other meeting held which you

12     attended or did you hear of any other meeting being held?

13        A.   In that form as the Executive Council, no.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, just for my clarity, is the

15     Autonomous District the same thing as the Autonomous Region?  Your first

16     question related to Autonomous District.  Now you're going to Autonomous

17     Region.  Are they the same thing?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it states "the

19     Autonomous District," that's what it states in the heading.  So I think

20     so, yes.  Thank you.

21        Q.   And I would just seek one more answer from you.  In your

22     statement you talked about going to Tuzla and calling upon the Muslims

23     from Vlasenica to return to Vlasenica.  You also gave us the dates of

24     when that was in April 1992.

25        A.   I think it was the 14th or the 15th of April, 1992.

Page 30923

 1        Q.   And now the question:  From that time until the 30th, when you

 2     were -- and until the 30th of May when you were calling upon Muslims to

 3     return to Vlasenica, did you ever receive any document in which it was

 4     suggested that the Muslim population in Vlasenica should be treated

 5     differently?

 6        A.   No, we did not get any such document.

 7        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I thank you on behalf of General Mladic's Defence.  I

 8     have no further questions.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave,

10     just one more thing but we can do that once the witness leaves.  We just

11     need to resolve one technical issue that has cropped up and it has to do

12     with a document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll pay attention to it soon.

14             Have the questions triggered any need for further questions?  I

15     may have one but I want to first carefully -- no, I leave it to that.

16             Mr. Stanic, this concludes your evidence.  I think everyone is

17     happy that they could accommodate you in returning back home in time.

18     I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way and for having

19     answered the questions, questions that were put to you by the parties,

20     questions that were put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return

21     home again.  You may follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you had a practical matter.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence, Your Honours.

Page 30924

 1     It seems to me that exhibit which was tendered by the Prosecution which

 2     got number P7087, P7087 completely corresponds to a Defence exhibit which

 3     was given number D885 today.  So then we would have one document

 4     appearing under two different numbers.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  If I'm -- well, I've looked at it quickly.  That was

 6     a series of three documents.  The document -- that may be right because I

 7     didn't refer to a D number on that.  One document is the order by

 8     Dr. Karadzic for Mr. Djokanovic, that's June 10th.  That was not in

 9     evidence as far as I'm aware.  And I thought that was the only document

10     in that series that we tendered, but I'd have to check.  So I'm just

11     wondering if there's a -- because -- and then the June 16th document that

12     I think is the one that Mr. Stojanovic is referring to may sound similar

13     but I don't think that got a new number.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P7087 is 65 ter 16217.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And D885 was the first of the two associated

16     exhibits under number 1D3128.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And I'm pretty sure that 65 ter 16217 was indeed the

18     June 10th document and was not in evidence as I understand it.  So I --

19     again, I referred to three documents, June 10th, June 16th, and

20     June 17th, and only the first of those received a new number.  So if

21     that's the document that Mr. Stojanovic is referring to as a D number,

22     then that's the problem, but I wasn't aware that was the case.  D885, as

23     I understand it, is the 16 June document.  That may already have two

24     documents because I cited -- no?  Okay.  Because I think it came up under

25     a different --

Page 30925

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest the following:  Have a cup of tea together

 2     with Mr. Stojanovic, find out what is there to be clarified for us, and

 3     at the same time one of the problems is striking and then getting back,

 4     that if someone later reads the transcript and has to find 20 pages later

 5     that what he reads was later changed, then sometimes the disadvantage of

 6     having the same document under two numbers is less than the disadvantage

 7     of being misled by something which hardly visible will change 20 pages

 8     later.  So nevertheless, we would like to have on the record whether

 9     there are any duplicates, but whether that should be accompanied by any

10     action is still to be considered.

11             We adjourn for the day.  The Chamber expresses its appreciation

12     to the parties that they made it possible for the witness to return home.

13     We resume Monday, the 2nd of February, that is in courtroom I, 9.30 in

14     the morning.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of

17                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.