1 Thursday, 29 January 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness? Yes.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
14 into the courtroom, I briefly deal with two matters and I cut matters
15 short. The first is that for P698 [sic] a new version was uploaded into
16 e-court which would reflect the Chamber's decision concerning omission of
17 an excerpt of that document. The new version was uploaded, as the
18 Chamber understands, into e-court under 65 ter number 31640a. The
19 Registry was already -- has already been instructed to make the necessary
20 replacement and therefore will now do so.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then as far as P07072 is concerned the -- a new
23 translation is there. I'll deal with that in more detail once we've
24 heard the evidence of the witness.
25 MR. TIEGER: Just a small transcript correction, Mr. President.
1 Line 15 indicates P698 and I believe the Court was referring to P6938.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I at least wanted to refer to.
3 Good morning, Witness. Could I invite you to stand, Mr. Stanic.
4 Mr. Stanic, before you give evidence I would invite you to make the
5 solemn declaration that has been handed out to you already.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MILENKO STANIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Stanic.
11 Mr. Stanic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You find
12 Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
13 Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stanic.
17 A. Good morning, gentlemen.
18 Q. For the record, would you please tell us slowly your exact name
19 and surname.
20 A. Surname Stanic, name Milenko.
21 Q. Mr. Stanic, did you at one point in time give a statement to the
22 Defence team of Mr. Mladic [as interpreted]?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did I hear "Mr. Mladic" or did I hear
25 "Mr. Karadzic"? Did you give a statement to the Karadzic Defence or to
1 the Mladic Defence, Witness?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Karadzic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I gave a statement to the
5 Defence team of Mr. Karadzic a year ago.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court
9 65 ter 1D04317.
10 Q. Mr. Stanic, you will see your statement on the screen before you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the last page of
12 it. In B/C/S could we see it? Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Stanic, on this page of your statement do you recognise the
14 signature, is it yours?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. The date which is handwritten on the left-hand side, is it the
17 date that you wrote yourself in your own hand?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, Mr. Stanic, in the course of proofing
20 before you appeared before the Court, did you share with me some details
21 about your encounters with Mr. Mladic?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up
24 in e-court 65 ter 1D04 -- 05326, 05326.
25 Q. I would only like to ask you, Mr. Stanic, this information that
1 you shared with us concerning your encounters with Mr. Mladic and the
2 details that you provided during the proofing with the Defence team of
3 Mr. Karadzic and the answers you provided in the Karadzic case, today
4 when you gave the solemn declaration in this courtroom would you provide
5 the same answers to those same questions?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I have the disadvantage, of course,
9 of not being present for all of the previous Defence examinations in
10 which proofing notes were referred to or admitted, but I did not
11 anticipate that there would be a 92 ter attempt for this. I have no
12 particular objections with the Defence doing a measure of leading since
13 they presented us with the proofing note, but unless this has been a
14 practice in this case, I'm not sure either of the specific requirements
15 of 92 ter have been fulfilled or that this is an approach the Court would
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think usually -- I would say that proofing notes
18 often where they were dealing with minor technical details, that they
19 were not gone through, although sometimes the Defence also has chosen to
20 go through them in all detail. I think it was yesterday that we heard
21 that the end of a career of a witness was slightly changed by a couple of
23 But here, as a matter of fact, Mr. Stojanovic, what we find here
24 is encounters with Mr. Mladic which is perhaps at the core of this case
25 which were announced in the 65 ter summary where I think not a word was
1 found in the statement that was tendered under Rule 92 ter. Therefore,
2 it's certainly a bit uncommon what you're doing at this moment, certainly
3 not in line with what is usually done.
4 The Chamber has not had the advantage, Mr. Tieger, to even read
5 the proofing note, at least I've not seen it. It may be that it was
7 Was it sent, Mr. Stojanovic, to Chambers staff? It may well be.
8 I may have --
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe we did
10 provide to you and the Prosecution this material, and I was prepared to
11 talk to Mr. Tieger and go through the answers Mr. Stanic gave me during
12 proofing. And I would not like to depart from the procedure and the
13 material we have obtained during proofing, that was the understanding we
14 had with Mr. Tieger. This was only a way to make it happen faster.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I may have missed it, Mr. Stojanovic. Could you
16 tell us when it was sent to the Chambers staff, this proofing note and as
17 I now understand the revised Defence exhibit list for the witness. Could
18 you give us any details?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this was sent
20 yesterday morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday morning. Let's have a look, 28th --
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, while we were in the
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, we'll verify that whether it was done or
25 not, at least I now have it in a printed version before me. Perhaps you
1 touch upon -- it's the core of the case, it's encounters with Mr. Mladic,
2 that you deal with every paragraph very briefly, not necessarily to read
3 it all. The first one is that the witness in his ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber considers the statement
6 to be a new statement, as a matter of fact, it touches upon matters which
7 do not appear in the original statement. Therefore, we'll see how you
8 work with it. You have tendered in your 92 ter motion the original
9 statement given to the Karadzic statement. We'll decide on that and
10 we'll see how you proceed with the remainder. We know by now that the
11 witness has -- during proofing has apparently given a new statement. We
12 leave it in your hands how to proceed, but we'll first focus on what was
13 tendered -- what was submitted in your 28th of October --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
15 Q. So, Mr. Stanic, my last question before we started to deal with
16 this formal problem: Would you today, after giving the oath in this
17 courtroom, provide the same answers to the same questions that had been
18 put to you by the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic and would these answers be
19 to the best of your knowledge, truthful, and accurate?
20 A. Yes, those answers were truthful and my answers would not be any
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
24 tender the statement of Witness Milenko Stanic which is 65 ter 1D04317.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Any objection against admission of that statement?
2 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that statement would receive
4 number ...?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D04317 receives number D884,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. D884 is admitted into
9 Witness, may I take it that you made a mistake when you said that
10 that statement was taken one year ago because on the basis of the date we
11 find in it, it is two years ago that it was taken? February 2013.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's when I was here at
13 the Tribunal and some time before we did the proofing. I was here around
14 15 February 2013.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I have one question.
16 Something appears which is quite extraordinary in this statement which is
17 now admitted and I'm seeking your explanation for it. Between
18 paragraph 42 and 43 it reads:
19 "Information elicited on the 16th of February, 2013, translation
20 provided by Karadzic Defence."
21 That appears just in the midst of this document and I wonder what
22 it is that paragraph 43 would be different from the first 42 paragraphs?
23 Could you explain to us what triggered this to be part of this statement?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to the
25 information I got from the witness, before talking to Mr. Karadzic during
1 proofing before he appeared in the courtroom that day, 16 February 2013,
2 the witness added this information which is contained in paragraph 43 and
3 the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic added it subsequently to the statement
4 that was admitted into evidence in that case. And it concerns a person
5 called Ferid Hodzic, TO commander.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if that's the case, when was the original
7 statement taken if this is just paragraph 43 being proofing? When was
8 the witness interviewed? Do you know that?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] From what I was told, it was the
10 day before in a room in the Detention Unit and that interview was
11 continued on the 16th of February and it was put in writing and made a
12 part of the statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, is it true that the most part of your
14 statement was taken one day and then the other day, the day on which you
15 signed, that a paragraph was added?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the proofing took a
17 long time. I provided most of the facts in 2012, towards the end of
18 2012. Of course I talked to the Defence team in the field and read back
19 the statement. And when I came to testify here I reviewed it again, and
20 the Chamber in Karadzic accepted the statement without any problem and
21 there were no objections either by the Prosecution or the Defence team.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember who took the statement -- I mean,
23 when you were interviewed already in 2012, was that by Mr. Karadzic or
24 was that by his team or members of his team? Do you have any
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of his team on the ground.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And were you then interviewed by Mr. Karadzic
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, during proofing I met with
5 Mr. Karadzic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that was the day before you gave testimony; is
7 that well understood?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In writing. I can't say exactly.
9 It's possible. It was either the day before or the day after, but it was
10 within one day of testifying.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, Mr. Stojanovic, does this then mean
14 that paragraph 43 has not been translated by CLSS?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from what I know
16 about the way the Defence team of Karadzic works, they immediately write
17 down things in English and that is how they provided the statement in
18 English directly to the Chamber in Karadzic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the way they work, but what is the answer
20 to my question?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, the
22 CLSS did not translate their statements. They translated their own
23 statements and submitted them as such to the Trial Chamber. But of
24 course, take this with a grain of salt.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What then is the significance of making this
1 remark: "Translation provided by Karadzic Defence," if it is no
2 departure from normal practice?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know how to answer
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. These, however, are
6 matters which if you tender a statement you should be aware of. If it
7 catches our eyes within a second, then it surprises that you have not
8 given it more thought. Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to
10 tender also the two accompanying documents, 1D03128 and document 1D04318.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections? These were originally the associated
12 exhibits to the initial statement.
13 Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3128 receives number D885 and document
15 1D4318 receives number D886, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D885 and D886 are admitted.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Stanic, today when you have given the solemn
20 declaration here in the courtroom, do you stand by the remarks that you
21 made during our proofing regarding the encounters and contacts you had
22 with General Mladic --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, they have not been tendered as an exhibit.
24 They are not before Court.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
1 respect, I believe they were. They have a number, 65 ter 1D05326,
2 proofing note --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: They have not been admitted into evidence yet.
4 Until they are admitted into evidence you cannot talk about them.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Let
6 me then tender 1D05326 to be admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we say it's a new statement. Please
8 introduce the information in that statement viva voce so that all doubts
9 as to what it is about -- because we received it now but ...
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour,
11 that's how I will proceed.
12 Q. Mr. Stanic, I will ask you this: During war-time events did you
13 have any meetings with General Mladic?
14 A. Yes, a number of meetings.
15 Q. And are you able to tell me, if you remember, in 1995 where these
16 meetings took place?
17 A. There were several of them, and I can confirm that I participated
18 in two meetings about which General Mladic made some entries in his war
20 Q. And can you please tell us what was the topic of those meetings,
21 the talks and discussions in which Mr. Mladic participated?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Now, I'm sorry to interrupt the examination, but I
24 thought it was best to head off some confusion before it became embedded
25 in the record and had to be disentangled with further questions. Based
1 on the proofing note, I understand the two meetings the witness is about
2 to talk about to have taken place in 1992 not 1995. So I don't know
3 whether or not that was simply --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, from what I read until now it says that he had
5 a greater number of meetings starting from mid-1992.
6 If the two specific meetings in the second paragraph,
7 Mr. Stojanovic, if they took place in 1995, then, first of all, the
8 proofing note doesn't say that at all. So would you then first, instead
9 of introducing in your question the year 1995, first establish when it
10 was that the various meetings referred to in the first and the second
11 paragraph of the proofing note took place.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I got 1991 in
13 the interpretation.
14 Q. Mr. Stanic, I want to ask you this: The two meetings that you
15 are discussing, when did they take place?
16 A. In 1992.
17 Q. And where were they held?
18 A. The first one in Vlasenica, at the Municipal Assembly seat in
19 Vlasenica. The second one was held at the Municipal Assembly seat in
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again, it is a new statement so when
22 I refer to it, I did so because it was given to us and it was entirely
23 unclear about the year. The appropriate way of introducing this kind of
24 evidence if, for example, you want to elicit the evidence as we find it
25 in the second paragraph of this document, which is not yet in evidence,
1 is: Have you met General Mladic at various occasions? And then you can,
2 for example, mention a year. And then you elicit the evidence viva voce
3 even if you have in the back of your mind what you know and what is
4 before us, that is, the proofing note. Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. What I want to ask you now is this: Could you please tell the
7 Trial Chamber what the topic was of the first meeting in 1992 in the
8 Municipal Assembly building in Vlasenica?
9 A. The entire leadership attended the meeting, the leadership of the
10 Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, and there were a number of members of
11 the Main Staff. We informed the members of the Main Staff about the
12 ongoing security and political situation in the municipality. While
13 preparing for the meeting, our Secretariat for National Defence prepared
14 a report about the degree of mobilisation and we informed the members of
15 the Main Staff about that as well.
16 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what General Mladic said
17 in his address on that occasion?
18 A. General Mladic asked us for a greater degree of engagement in the
19 process of mobilisation, for greater support in the supply of the army
20 units, and he pointed to some impermissible acts that he said he would
21 deal with and try to root out.
22 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber when the second meeting
23 was held, the one in Zvornik?
24 A. After the meeting in Vlasenica, I think that this is around the
25 time of late June 1992 or possibly early July 1992 - I'm not sure if I
1 will get the date absolutely correct - and it was in the municipal
2 building in Zvornik.
3 Q. And what did General Mladic talk about at that meeting?
4 A. The meeting was attended by military commanders and the entire
5 political leadership of the municipalities belonging to the Zvornik
6 region. General -- the General particularly talked about a decisive
7 battle against paramilitary formations that were particularly active in
8 the Zvornik area during that period.
9 Q. Thank you. And finally I would like you to tell the
10 Trial Chamber --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second.
12 Did he talk about paramilitaries in Zvornik -- Serbian
13 paramilitaries or Muslim paramilitaries?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he spoke about Serbian
15 paramilitary formations in Zvornik.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. And I'm going to end with this question, Mr. Stanic: The other
19 meetings where you had the opportunity to meet General Mladic, what was
20 his position and what did he most frequently talk about?
21 A. I never noticed or observed General Mladic issuing any kind of
22 instructions to expel Muslims after military attacks nor any type of
23 commission of war crimes. He often spoke about our internal problems
24 during these meetings in the Serbian republic, and in particular he
25 criticised the problems and the functioning of the Ministry of the
1 Interior. He often criticised certain deputies as well who often
2 criticised the army without any valid arguments for that.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stanic for these responses.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, can I ask a question. In what capacity did
5 you attend the meetings in Vlasenica and in Zvornik?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the president of the Municipal
7 Assembly of Vlasenica and also for a brief period as the president of the
8 Autonomous Region of Birac which included a number of municipalities in
9 the Zvornik area.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And thank you to the
12 witness, Your Honours. I have no further questions for the witness so,
13 by your leave, I would like to read the summary of the statement of
14 Witness Milenko Stanic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and whatever you wanted to have additionally
16 admitted is now elicited viva voce so we can put aside at this moment the
17 proofing note. Please read the summary, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milenko Stanic was
19 elected to the post of president of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica
20 after the first multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina and he
21 remained at that post with some status changes until 1993, when he was
22 appointed to the post of minister of trade and tourism in the government
23 of the RS. When he was performing the duties of president of the
24 Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, according to the agreement on the
25 division of power with the SDA, Izet Redzic, a member of the SDA, was
1 elected as president of the Executive Board of the municipality of
3 From the beginning right after it was formed, the authorities did
4 not function properly and there were frequent differences about the
5 question of implementing the referendum on the independence of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina about the position towards the JNA and mobilisation, about
7 personnel issues, and the documentation of the Secretariat for
8 National Defence.
9 Aware that the Muslims were moving towards independence and
10 secession from Yugoslavia, the Serbs approached the formalizing of the
11 idea about the Serbs remaining in the SFRY and the Territorial Defence of
12 the municipality of Vlasenica. The agreement between the Serb and the
13 Muslim people was verified and signed at the Assembly session on the
14 13th of April, 1992, at which time it was also adopted. However, in the
15 implementation of the decision, the leadership of the SDA backed out of
16 the agreement so that only the part of the decision relating to the
17 forming of the municipality of Milici was actually carried out.
18 At the same time, with these political attempts to settle the
19 crisis in a peaceful way, the population was leaving the municipality of
20 Vlasenica en masse, first of all, Serbs and then followed by the Muslim
21 population in the direction of Tuzla. Together with Redzic, he
22 personally went to Tuzla and called on the Muslims to return to Vlasenica
23 and to continue their life together. On the 21st of April, 1992, the TO
24 was mobilised with the task of securing buildings of key significance and
25 to prevent looting of property. This task was carried out without any
1 fighting and without any casualties.
2 In his statement he talks about the reasons for the forming of
3 the Crisis Staff in Vlasenica, the problems in its functioning, and the
4 later forming of the War Commission, and tasks relating to organising the
5 accommodation and transport of the civilian population, i.e., those who
6 were leaving and those who were arriving at Vlasenica, about the purpose
7 of the Susica facility, and about his knowledge relating to events in the
8 villages of Zaklopaca, Drum, Pijuci, Dzambici, and Bare.
9 Your Honours, this is a brief summary of the witness's statement.
10 We have no further questions for him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. I am just -- one second,
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, Susica is dealt with where exactly
15 in the statement?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honours.
17 Paragraph 28.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check again. Yes, that is about
19 buildings and houses and not about -- I now understand that you say the
20 explanation of - and let me read it - the Susica facility, you are purely
21 talking about houses and people staying there for a while. Nothing
22 about -- it's not referring to any detention facility or something of
23 the -- like that, isn't it?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours,
25 as it states in paragraph 28.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. That's -- well, summary is not evidence
2 so we don't have to further be concerned about that.
3 Then, Witness, having now gone through your examination-in-chief,
4 you'll now be cross-examined, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Tieger.
5 You find Mr. Tieger to your right. In a minute he'll be standing.
6 Mr. Tieger is counsel for the Prosecution.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Before I commence the cross-examination, I would simply note, as
10 I indicated to Mr. Lukic before the beginning of the court session, that
11 Mr. Stanic did receive a 90(E) advisement in the Karadzic case.
12 Mr. Lukic indicated -- don't want to speak for him, but that he broached
13 the subject generally with the witness as I think he routinely does, and
14 the witness indicated he didn't need such a warning. But given the fact
15 that it was given in the Karadzic case, I just wanted to bring it to the
16 attention of the Court and leave it in the Court's hands.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The practice is in this Chamber that -- especially
18 if these are Defence witnesses, that, first of all, the Defence thinks
19 about it and discusses it. If, Mr. Tieger, you at any point in time feel
20 that a 90(E) warning would be appropriate -- and of course I don't know
21 what kinds of questions you are going to put to the witness and not
22 knowing what material you would have which would make you believe that
23 90(E) warning would be there. But if you find there is a point where it
24 might be wise to do so, then the Chamber will do so at your request.
25 MR. TIEGER: Very well, Mr. President. As a general matter I
1 think the nature of the cross-examination implicates issues that would
2 give rise --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
4 MR. TIEGER: -- to such an advisement in the similar manner as
5 the examination in Karadzic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What you therefore say is: In view of the questions
7 I'm going to put to the witness and in line of what my material tells me,
8 it would be wise already to do that right away.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I think so, rather than waiting for the
10 specific questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll do that right away.
12 Witness, I'll read to you Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure
13 and Evidence. It says:
14 "A witness," that's you in this case, "may object to making any
15 statement which might tend to incriminate the witness. The Chamber may,
16 however, compel the witness to answer the question, but testimony
17 compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent
18 prosecution against the witness for any offence other than false
20 So if you think your answers would be of an incriminating nature
21 for yourself, you may ask not to answer that question. Is that clear to
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
2 Q. Mr. Stanic, we have about ten minutes until the break, so we will
3 be covering a few questions. So you know the timetable, we'll be
4 adjourning for 20 minutes after that.
5 You mention at paragraph 5 of your statement that you were chosen
6 as president of the Assembly, which I understand to be the highest
7 position in the municipality, and that Mr. Redzic was selected as the
8 chairman of the Executive Board. That's correct, isn't it?
9 A. It's difficult to say what the highest-ranking position is. It
10 was a system of local authority, pre-war system, where the
11 Executive Board had broader competencies than the president of the
12 Assembly. The president of the Assembly was not a mayor with the mayor's
13 competences. He was a deputy, first among deputies, and he presided over
14 the Assembly.
15 Q. Okay. The Executive Board then was - as the designation
16 indicates - an executive body and was the municipal equivalent of what
17 the government was at the republic level; right?
18 A. No. The Executive Board was the local government.
19 Q. I think there was just a translation misunderstanding. That's
20 what I was trying to indicate.
21 Now, in paragraph 13 of your statement you refer to the adoption
22 of a decision and the joining by the Vlasenica municipality of the Birac
23 Autonomous District in December of 1991. Now, that body that is referred
24 to here as the Autonomous District was not an ethnically neutral or
25 general multi-cultural regional body, but it was one of the regional
1 bodies known as Serbian Autonomous Districts or Regions; correct?
2 A. That body was called the autonomous area or region of Birac. At
3 the Assembly session, the deputies asked that it be -- or a number of the
4 deputies ask that it be named the Serbian autonomous region; however, at
5 the request of deputies from other parties, the reformist party and the
6 SDP, explained that the area with such a name should be left open for the
7 Muslims -- deputies of Muslim ethnicity to also join the body who were in
8 favour of the preservation of the federal state. It's true that the body
9 functioned for a very brief period of time and it comprised only deputies
10 of Serb ethnicity.
11 Q. Mr. Stanic, I understand that it was -- it's your testimony that
12 the designation of the body in the vote that was taken in Vlasenica was
13 altered to make it more palatable to Serbian opposition members, but the
14 reality is that this body was known to others including the Bosnian Serb
15 Assembly as the Serbian Autonomous District of Birac; right?
16 A. Well, I don't know who imagined what, but I could just go by the
17 facts. In Vlasenica, we as members of the Serbian Democratic Party did
18 not have the necessary majority to reach such a decision. We needed the
19 support of four deputies who were members of the former communists, this
20 is the SDP party, and from Markovic's reformists, meaning the reformist
21 party. And it was their explicit request, in order for them to support
22 such a decision, was to call it the Autonomous District and not the
23 Serbian Autonomous District. And I've already told you what their
24 explanation was. I think that that was a good proposal; however, the
25 situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina was not like that and that was
1 evident from the referendums, that the line was complete and that all
2 Muslims mostly were in favour of leaving the federal state and that all
3 the Serbs were in favour of the preservation of the federal state.
4 Q. One document before the break.
5 MR. TIEGER: Can we turn to 65 ter 02334.
6 Q. Mr. Stanic, I asked you about the position of and the
7 understanding of the Bosnian Serb Assembly. This is an excerpt from the
8 2nd Session of that body on the 21st of November, 1991 - at page 32 in
9 English and page 33 in Serbian - and reflects the Assembly's decision on
10 the verification of the declared Serbian autonomous provinces in Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina, including the Serbian autonomous regions in Krajina, in
12 Herzegovina, and in Romanija-Birac encompassing municipalities such as
13 Han Pijesak, Pale, Sokolac, Vlasenica, and Sekovici. So this is a
14 reflection, Mr. Stanic, of the understanding by, among others, the
15 Bosnian Serb Assembly that these bodies were Serbian autonomous regions
16 or districts; correct?
17 A. Evidently this is that type of decision. In the -- on the
18 ground, however, there were different situations.
19 Q. All right. Well, when we return we'll look at some documents
20 reflecting the situation on the ground.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, the previous question where I think
22 you were asked about how the Assembly looked at it, not the local
23 Assembly. And then you said: I don't know how they looked at it.
24 That's not entirely consistent with the answer you're giving us now.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER: And I think I understood the timing correctly and we
2 would be breaking now, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break and we'd like to see you
4 back in 20 minutes, Mr. Stanic. You may follow the usher.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 MR. TIEGER: And if I could tender 65 ter 02334 before we move
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's a very long document, Mr. --
9 MR. TIEGER: I understand -- in conformity with the Court's
10 practice, Mr. President, which I understand was to either tender this
11 excerpt separately or we can hold it in abeyance until we identify the
12 full collection of excerpts from this Assembly session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I must admit that I do not remember at this moment
14 whether we had reserved a number for the 2nd Session. If not, then I
15 leave it to you. You know better how you're going to use this same
16 document in future, we do not know. So if you think there will be
17 considerable follow-up, then I think it would be good that we tender it
18 but that later you'll make the excerpts of all the portions in it you
19 dealt with, and otherwise to tender it separately as an excerpt now.
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, I would -- maybe I can answer that at the
21 break. I just want to check with a couple of people to see if they have
22 in mind some --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll wait until after the break.
24 We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you said you would inform us after the
4 break about the use of this document.
5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. I would -- for now I would ask
6 to have it, 65 ter 02334a, include - and I mentioned this to Mr. Lukic at
7 the break - pages 1 through 4 and 32 through 34 of the English and the
8 same in the Serbian. I don't believe there's any objection to that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And they have been uploaded as such? Not yet?
10 MR. TIEGER: Not yet.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So then we reserve a number awaiting the upload of
12 what you just told us would be uploaded.
13 Madam Registrar, the number reserved would be?
14 THE REGISTRAR: The number reserved for document 65 ter 2334a
15 will be P7077, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Stanic, the SAOs, the Serbian Autonomous Districts or
19 regions, were established commencing in September 1991 pursuant to
20 guidance and direction from the SDS republic level; correct?
21 A. I do not remember having any guidance or direction of that kind,
22 but following the situation as it was unfolding in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
23 noting the obvious fact that people were trying to overturn the federal
24 state that we shared, I believed, together with other politicians in
25 Vlasenica during the ongoing negotiations about demarcation in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it was necessary to take a position on the issue
2 and to enter the negotiations as a municipality where the majority of
3 deputies to the Assembly would be in favour of remaining within the
4 federal state.
5 MR. TIEGER: 65 ter 31906, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, can the witness please answer
7 the question that was put to him. Were they established commencing
8 September 1991?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say the date --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when each region was --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Tieger.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the witness gave a long answer not
14 focusing on what you asked him as a matter of fact -- well, the first
15 line was, but apart from that. I do not know whether we want to and
16 whether you want to listen to many explanations which are not directly
17 related to the question. And I would not be surprised if you say: You
18 have answered the question.
19 Witness, could you please try to focus your answer on the
20 question because the last question was about whether you acted upon
21 guidance and you said you don't remember any guidance of such kind.
22 That's an answer to the question. And then what else was on your mind
23 and where you thought it would be wise to take a position or not was not
24 asked and perhaps Mr. Tieger is interested in it, perhaps he's not at
25 all. Please proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER: And thank you for that, Mr. President.
2 Q. The document in front of you, Mr. Stanic, as you can see, is
3 first a cover page sent by Rajko Dukic, the president of the
4 Executive Board of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina, referring to the
5 decision on the appointment of the regionalisation staff and a request
6 for realisation of all activities relating to regionalisation through
7 that staff sent to all the municipal boards and city boards of the SDS on
8 September 13th, 1991.
9 If we turn the page, please, we can see what Mr. Dukic is
10 referring to and that is the decision on the appointment of the
11 regionalisation staff pursuant to the decisions and conclusions made at
12 the counselling of municipal, regional, and republican organs of the
13 Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on 7 September 1991.
14 And the decision continues:
15 "The Staff for monitoring the implementation of the decision on
16 the proclamation of autonomous regions ..." is noted and specified below.
17 That is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, is it not, of the
18 republic-level direction to the municipalities to take affirmative steps
19 regarding regionalisation and in particular the proclamation of the
20 Serbian Autonomous Districts or Regions?
21 A. What is the question?
22 Q. I just asked it, Mr. Stanic. This is a decision, isn't it, by
23 the republic level sent to the municipal bodies to implement the
24 conclusions and decisions at the counselling held on 7 September and in
25 particular the proclamation of SAOs?
1 A. I can say I've never seen these decisions. As far as I can see,
2 they were sent out by the Serbian Democratic Party. Whether this
3 decision reached the Municipal Board of the SDS I don't know because I
4 was not the president of that party.
5 Q. So you're suggesting to this Court that --
6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the witness tells us that he never
8 received guidance, he doesn't know anything about it. We have
9 documentary evidence and if the witness doesn't know anything, then
10 perhaps we should -- of course you can put a little bit to the witness
11 and then to see whether he may have forgotten about some matters, but
12 let's not spend too much time on --
13 MR. TIEGER: Happy to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- with a witness who apparently does not know about
15 these things which are documented at the time.
16 MR. TIEGER: Happy to tender and move forward.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31 --
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will first read the number and then
21 I will hear you, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31906 receives number P7078,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 26, line 21 of the
1 provisional record, the Prosecutor says it's a decision to appoint SAO,
2 the Serb Autonomous District. I should like to hear where we can see
3 that in the document the Prosecutor is showing, that it's about a Serb
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: If the language of the document is inconsistent with
7 the phrasing of the question, I yield to the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is Autonomous District. I think it is --
9 but doesn't change your --
10 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. The point of the question was much
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's hereby then corrected. I think
13 the -- let me just see. Yes, I think from the answer of the witness,
14 yes, it -- from the answer of the witness it seems that he has not been
15 confused by any inaccurate quoting of the document which, indeed, talks
16 about autonomous regions. Please proceed.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Let me deal directly with the question His Honour --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think now we have ruled on the objection so
20 now it's time to decide on admission. Admitted into evidence. And of
21 course I'm talking about P7078.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. And let me deal briefly with a question His Honour Judge Moloto
25 asked you, and that was whether or not Serbian Autonomous Districts began
1 to be proclaimed in September, that is, shortly after the 7 September
2 meeting that we just referred to.
3 MR. TIEGER: And in that connection, if I could turn to
4 65 ter 16200.
5 Q. This is an article from "Javnost" of 21 September 1991. If you
6 look at the upper right-hand corner of the page in Serbian we can see an
7 article on life as Serbian Autonomous District and the article begins:
8 "Two Serbian" --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you read that, could you repeat the
10 number, please.
11 MR. TIEGER: Of the 65 ter --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
13 MR. TIEGER: 16200.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. The article commences:
17 "Two Serbian autonomous districts and one autonomous region were
18 declared this week: Old Herzegovina, Romanija, and Bosanska Krajina ..."
19 And then the article goes on to discuss the -- some aspects of
20 the underlying reasons given by the author.
21 This is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, isn't it, of the reality that
22 in the relatively immediate aftermath of the 7 September meeting, Serbian
23 Autonomous Districts or Autonomous Regions began to be declared,
24 consistent with the direction that was provided in the previous exhibit?
25 A. I've already answered once. I don't see why I should answer your
1 questions ten times. Your questions are the same. I said it could have
2 been --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stanic --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in September or maybe after
5 September. But I can say that in December --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stanic, if there's any objection to the
7 question, it comes from either the Defence or from the Bench, not from
9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, and you may --
10 MR. TIEGER: I tender 65 ter 16200, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16200 receives number P7079,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Mr. Stanic, whatever designation you put on it for whatever
17 reason, whether to induce opposition deputies to join the vote, the
18 reality is that the purpose of these bodies, these regional bodies, and
19 the purpose of the regional body for Birac was to advance the interests
20 of the Serbian people; correct?
21 A. The Serb positions were made clear in the referendum, and if you
22 look at it in that context, they gave 100 per cent support to staying in
23 the shared state. And if we look at it that way, then your remark is
25 Q. Well, I'm looking at it a bit broader than a very narrow, limited
1 reference to the referendum.
2 MR. TIEGER: So perhaps we could turn to 65 ter 16184a.
3 Q. This document, Mr. Stanic, reflects minutes of a -- of the -- of
4 THE meeting of the Assembly of Autonomous District Birac held on
5 February 5th, 1992, in Milici --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It says "autonomous region." On top of the
7 English page:
8 "Minutes of meeting.
9 "Second session of the Assembly of Autonomous Region of
10 'Birac' ..."
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not the President.
13 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm sorry. I was focused
14 on the document and misspoke. My apologies. Thank you for that
16 Q. I want to track through some of the comments made at that
17 meeting. First of all, in point 1 of the meeting we see that:
18 "Milenko Stanic, chairman of the Executive Council of the
19 Autonomous Region of Birac" - and we need to move it so you can see,
20 Mr. Stanic, to page 2 of the Serbian - "explained the Executive Council
21 Operating Programme ..." and opened debate on the programme.
22 Now, as we continue through we see Mr. -- during the course of
23 the discussion about the programme, we can see where the focus of that
24 discussion goes. So Mr. Jovicic states - if we scroll down on the
25 English, please - that existing means of -- excuse me, that "the economy
1 of the region should be linked with the economy of neighbouring regions
2 of Romanija and Semberija and with the economy of Serbia ..."
3 Mr. Dukic states --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we also perhaps read, then, the line that
5 follows which may be relevant:
6 "The available media should be used only if they satisfy the
7 needs of Serb people."
8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I did want to bring that
10 portion to the witness's attention.
11 Q. Mr. Dukic states that there should be information on the current
12 political situation in the republic, in particular regarding the
13 referendum that the Serbs should abstain from. He goes on to say that:
14 "The Serb people should establish their own rule in the region
15 and even further."
16 Mr. Tesic states a little further below that:
17 "This should be just the beginning, a starting point for further
18 work on the programme to make it better meet the interests of the Serbs,"
19 et cetera.
20 We see Mr. Savkic below talking about the relationship between
21 the proposed economy and the economy of Serbia. These references, among
22 others, Mr. Stanic, reflect the fact that this body was focused on
23 fulfilling the interests of the Serbian people. That was the purpose and
24 effort of this body; correct?
25 A. Those were the discussions among the Assemblymen, and as you can
1 see, they're mostly about economic topics, because the Assemblymen were
2 all Serbs and it's logical that they were concerned with Serb interests.
3 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, Mr. Tieger, could we just turn
5 over the page of the English one to see the conclusions. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16184a receives number P7080,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Now, we mentioned Mr. Dukic earlier in connection with the
12 distribution of the 7 September -- or of the decision arising from the
13 7 September meeting. Mr. Dukic, as noted in that document, was the
14 president of the Executive Committee or the Executive Board of the
15 republic-level SDS; right?
16 A. Yes, for a while he was the president of the Executive Board of
17 the Serbian Democratic Party.
18 Q. And he was also the co-ordinator for SAO Romanija-Birac; correct?
19 A. I think so.
20 MR. TIEGER: And in that connection perhaps we could look at two
21 documents quickly. The first is 65 ter 07908. These are the minutes of
22 the 8th Session of the Executive Committee of the SDS of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina held on 6 September 1992.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6 February --
25 MR. TIEGER: February 1992. And if we turn to the third page in
1 English, item 4, I believe that's also the third page in Serbian but
2 let's check.
3 Q. We see that there is a recommendation --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's not the correct page in B/C/S.
5 MR. TIEGER: Item 4. There. Thank you.
6 Q. We see a discussion about the impact of the formation of the
7 Assembly of the Serbian people and the ministerial council rendering the
8 need for or eliminating the need for the existence of a regionalisation
9 staff. And in line with that, the recommendation by the Executive
10 Committee to charge people with responsibility for the accomplishment of
11 regionalisation on the ground. And making the recommendation that the
12 following individuals be charged with such responsibility in various
13 regions, including Mr. Dukic in Birac and Semberija.
14 And perhaps it's easier if I -- I turn you to another document
15 reflecting the culmination of that recommendation - that's 65 ter 12934 -
16 which reflects a document of 24 February 1992 by the SDS Executive
17 Committee and specifically a decision that Mr. Dukic be appointed as the
18 designated member co-ordinator for the SAO of Semberija and Birac.
19 So those two documents, Mr. Stanic, reflect what you indicated
20 previously, that Mr. Dukic was the co-ordinator for the Birac body?
21 A. Yes. He was the co-ordinator but in my statement I did talk
22 about my relationship with Mr. Lukic [as interpreted], our relations were
23 not that good, and at that time -- or actually, before the beginning of
24 the civil war I didn't have any particular communication with Mr. Lukic.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you talking about --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you talking about Mr. Lukic or about
3 Mr. Dukic?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rajko Dukic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber unanimously could not imagine that you
6 would have a bad relationship with Mr. Lukic, so therefore all three of
7 us immediately intervened.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. I tender those two documents.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7908 receives number P7081 and document
12 12934 receives number P7082, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P7081 and P7082 are admitted into evidence.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Stanic, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that on
16 February 14th, 1992, at a large plenary, Radovan Karadzic activated the
17 second level of Variant A and B, that is, the instructions of 19 December
18 1991, that's P3774. Now, what the evidence in P3774, a recording of that
19 plenary meeting, indicates is that Mr. Karadzic explained at page 5 of
20 that document in English and page 4 in the Serbian that now more
21 important than meetings and proclamations is to "gain the real situation,
22 the factual situation on the ground." He explained that Serbs have the
23 "right" to "introduce the stage number 2 and functioning of your areas
24 and relying on your own forces to absolutely defend yourselves from the
25 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina." That's at page 7 of the English,
1 page 5 of the Serbian.
2 And said further: "Please, that" -- this is at page 24 of the
3 English and page 18 of the Serbian.
4 "Please, that is why we called you today, to intensify, to
5 introduce the second level, and to intensify the functioning of the
6 government at any cost and on every single millimetre of our territory."
7 Now, I'm going to ask you if you recall being present at that
8 meeting, Mr. Stanic, and I ask that in particular because Mr. Dukic opens
9 the meeting by noting, and this is at page 1:
10 "Apart from the members of the Main Board and the
11 Executive Board, we invited to this meeting the presidents of
12 SDS Municipal Boards, presidents and members of regional boards,
13 presidents of Assemblies, Executive Committees of municipalities, where
14 we have them and our officials in government where we have them and our
15 officials in government and party organs, as I can see the majority came,
16 maybe even all of you, and I thank you."
17 So do you recall being present at this meeting along with all of
18 these other officials of the party?
19 A. I cannot remember. I cannot be definitely sure whether I
20 attended that meeting or not.
21 Q. Can I assume, however, that whether you were physically present
22 or not, that someone - perhaps even Mr. Dukic - conveyed to you exactly
23 or in general terms what had happened at this important plenary session?
24 A. It's possible that somebody from the party went to the meeting.
25 Dukic did not convey to me any instructions because, as I said, we didn't
1 have much communication.
2 Q. Well, let's try it in more general terms. Whether it was
3 Mr. Dukic or another member of the party, either from Vlasenica or from
4 the regional body of Birac, you were made aware, were you not, of the
5 intensification of activities related to gaining the real situation, that
6 is, the factual situation, on the ground?
7 A. We had more contacts at the regional level, and certain
8 information and procedures I got from the colleagues from the local
9 Assemblies that were functioning at that regional level.
10 Q. And although your statement at paragraph 42 might be read as
11 suggesting that you are entirely unfamiliar with the content of Variant A
12 and B, as you indicated in your Karadzic testimony - and if you wish, I
13 can direct your attention to the specific portion - you had heard of the
14 document or at least partially aware of its contents and heard people
15 discuss it at a minimum.
16 A. As I said, I received a part of the information from
17 representatives of the local Assemblies that probably operated pursuant
18 to such instructions. I personally don't recall the document or its
19 exact provisions.
20 Q. Mr. Stanic, four days after Mr. Karadzic called for "intensifying
21 the functioning of the government at any cost and on every single
22 millimetre of our territory," the - and that's at page 24 of the English
23 of P3774 and 18 of the Serbian - four days after that the 1st Session of
24 the Executive Council of the Birac SAO was held to advance the take-over
25 of power in the area of the Birac SAO; isn't that correct?
1 A. I cannot state the exact date. As for the Executive Council, two
2 sessions were held and two Assembly sessions of the autonomous region and
3 that's where the whole process ended.
4 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 1 -- sorry, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dukic, Witness, you were not asked how many
6 times they met. You were asked whether the Executive Council decided --
7 was held to advance the take-over of power. Do you remember that that
8 happened in one of those few moments where they met?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At those two meetings we talked
10 about the issues of the regions that should become part of the autonomous
11 region and that we would nominate in future negotiations --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- about the peaceful solution of
14 the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, those that wanted to remain in
15 Republika Srpska. So I cannot really answer such a specifically put
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you can give the details of what was
18 discussed. If you say: I don't remember when their advancing the
19 take-over of power was discussed, then tell us that you don't remember
20 and we'll move on. Apparently you have some recollection on subjects
21 that were discussed, but this one, if you don't remember, please tell us.
22 You don't remember?
23 Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, if we could call up 65 ter 16187.
25 Q. This document is the minutes of the 1st Session of the
1 Executive Council of the Birac SAO held on 18 February 1992 in the
2 premises of the Municipal Assembly beginning at 1000 hours. And we see
3 there, Mr. Stanic, that you as president of the Executive Council of the
4 Birac SAO chaired the meeting.
5 MR. TIEGER: And if we turn to the conclusion at page 3 of the
6 English, and if you turn the page in Serbian as well, please.
7 Q. "Conclusion.
8 "In order to take over power in the area of the Birac SAO as
9 efficiently as possible ..."
10 And then it goes on to identify some issues in relation to that
11 objective. So this is a reflection, Mr. Stanic, of what I had asked you
12 earlier, that is, that four days after Mr. Karadzic gave the instruction
13 to "intensify the functioning of the government on every single
14 millimetre of our territory," the Birac SAO Executive Council met to
15 implement precisely that objective, that is, the taking over of power in
16 the area of Birac?
17 A. We already were in power. Why would we want to take over power?
18 I had the Assembly majority in Vlasenica. We had our own chief of the
19 public security station and our own commander deputy. What is being
20 discussed here is the issue that I mentioned and that is the central
21 topic of all of our discussions, both at the Assembly and in the
22 Executive Board, was how to remain, how to join that part of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina that would recognise federal laws and remain in the
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. We had a commission that would be
25 working on these questions because we were concerned that if there were
1 no activities we would be pulled into a centralised Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, but the one that none of the Serbs wanted to accept and
4 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we deal with that I have one question.
6 This was the first meeting of the Executive Board. You signed
7 the minutes.
8 Could we go to the last page, page 3 in e-court.
9 Did you adopt those minutes? I see there's no signature but ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The minutes are not signed because
11 there were errors by the person who drafted the minutes, because it was
12 SAO and it was actually the autonomous region as reflected in the
13 decisions of the Assembly. So the person taking the minutes made these
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have corrected minutes been drafted?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that should have been so, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not whether it should have been but
18 whether it was.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: My question is not what you think but whether you
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What if I don't know now? What
23 answer can I give?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you don't know, then you tell us that you
25 don't know. It's a simple as --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so. I'm not 100 per cent
2 sure. But I think I drew the minute-taker's attention to that error and
3 asked that it be corrected, but I don't know whether I signed that --
4 those minutes or not.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Which suggests that there would be another version
6 of the minutes of this meeting. If that could be found or is it -- if
7 it's anywhere in the collections held by either Defence or Prosecution,
8 the Chamber would like to know whether they were ever changed. Because
9 the minutes were, what we saw a minute ago, adopted in the 2nd Session.
10 MR. TIEGER: We will certainly do a double-check, Mr. President,
11 but I'm not aware of that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Now, Witness, you earlier told us you had no idea what people
14 would imagine. Now, if the minute-taker again and again and again in
15 this document talks about a Serbian autonomous region, then -- and if you
16 explained to us that you have drawn his attention to that mistake, then
17 the answer that you could have no idea of how the autonomous regions were
18 perceived, isn't it true that on the basis of this, what you call a
19 mistake, let's just leave it to that, and having seen all the other
20 documents about Serb autonomous regions, that you indeed you could
21 imagine how the autonomous regions were perceived?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me to evaluate what
23 people were thinking and I cannot do that. Probably your remarks are
24 correct, but I cannot figure out or say what people were thinking. So in
25 that sense perhaps my answer or my opinion would not be relevant.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes people express how they perceive
2 something, and if that frequently happens, you may gain an impression of
3 how other people perceive things. Would you agree with that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both yes and no.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain the no?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way people think is different.
7 In their thinking, people are sometimes guided by their interests or
8 wishes, and reality, however, is very often different. I know that it
9 was the wish of the Serbs to have their own territorial unit in Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina that would remain as part of the Federal Republic of
11 Yugoslavia, and probably the majority thought along those lines.
12 Bosniaks or Muslims were thinking of their own state that they would
13 control by a majority. And so that was their way of thinking. So from
14 that aspect, everybody would be looking at these documents in their own
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what I'm asking you, as a matter of fact,
17 is that everyone expresses as his perception or his opinion that A would
18 be better than B, then you can gain an impression of how people perceive
19 A compared to B. Just to give an example, if all the Serbs say: We
20 would rather stay in a federal Yugoslavia, I agree with you, and that's
21 the no, that they may think otherwise, they may all want to separate from
22 the federal Yugoslavia. But that's apparently not how you understood it.
23 What I'm saying to you more or less is: That where you earlier said that
24 you could not imagine how people perceive something, that in everyday
25 life we orient ourselves on how people express that they perceive matters
1 or what opinion they have, and that in that respect I'm asking you
2 whether having seen all of this, whether indeed you had no idea about how
3 the autonomous regions were perceived as put to you by Mr. Tieger, that
4 is, that they were mainly for the Serb interest?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Assembly comprised
6 all Serbs and that it was logical for them to represent Serb interests,
7 but I do leave room for deputy Muslims who would possibly opt to support
8 such a concept and that the Assembly membership would be filled by them.
9 You also saw the deputies' discussion during the Assembly, all Serb ones.
10 So there isn't too much discussion at that session about Serb interests,
11 but in questions of life are interested, issues pertaining to enterprises
12 and work. It was logical that we were thinking about connections with
13 Serbia because we were turned towards Serbia.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last sentence.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm an economist and I'm not a
18 philosopher so I cannot respond to questions about who thought what.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That question was not asked.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put another question to you, Mr. Stanic.
21 Mr. Stanic, you said corrections had to be made to these minutes with
22 respect to the term of "Serbian autonomous region." Were other
23 corrections made as well?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say right now. I cannot
25 answer with a yes or a no.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tieger put to you one sentence under the
2 heading "conclusion," and I read it to you again:
3 "In order to take over power in the area of the Birac SAO as
4 efficiently as possible ..."
5 Was that sentence corrected?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm wondering why you as the chair of this
8 meeting and the person who is supposed to sign minutes, reading this
9 sentence answered to Mr. Tieger:
10 "We already were in power. Why would we want to take over
12 I really don't understand. Why does such a sentence appear in
13 these minutes you were the chair of?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that sentence is taken out of
15 context of the conclusions that go along with that sentence. I mean,
16 minute-takers were often less educated, while the minutes from the
17 Assembly sessions of the SAO were made by a person with a law degree.
18 Here we're talking about a typist who finished secondary school, three
19 years of secondary school. So it's very likely for such mistakes to be
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is your explanation. I heard that. Thank
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think you tendered that document, Mr. Tieger? We
24 have not assigned a number to it yet or have we? No.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16187 receives number P7083,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 MR. TIEGER: I think we have time to follow-up on the question
5 His Honour Judge Fluegge asked.
6 Q. He directed your attention to the rhetorical question you asked
7 in response to my question and your comment was: "Why would we want to
8 take over power?" And then you went on to mention that the central topic
9 was how to join the part of Bosnia and Herzegovina that would recognise
10 federal laws and remain in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
11 Mr. Stanic, the fact was that you as president of the SAO Birac
12 government or AO Birac government, however you want to put it, were
13 determined to ensure that under no circumstances would the laws of an
14 independent -- sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina affect
15 any Serbian household; correct?
16 A. Yes, that commitment of ours was not in dispute. We had the
17 support of the people for this position via the referendum and so that
18 was our position.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is misquoted. It
21 says an independent sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina. The date of the
22 minutes is the 12th of February, 1992, but the document of the
23 Prosecution has a different date as to the proclamation of an independent
25 MR. TIEGER: I believe the question was the witness's
1 determination to prevent an independent -- the laws of an independent
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina from affecting Serb households whenever that
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was the question, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. TIEGER: And if we could --
6 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore -- but could you say where exactly then
7 Mr. Tieger misquoted the document, what word he used which is not
8 consistent with what is in the document, Mr. Stojanovic?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Your microphone is --
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Tieger on
13 page 45, line 14, 15, and 16, and 17, spoke about an independent
14 sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina in the context of the conclusions from the
15 meeting of the 18th of February, 1992. Bosnia and Herzegovina became
16 independent after this date according to documents --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Haven't you listened to the response by Mr. Tieger?
18 Mr. Tieger asked what -- whether there was a determination to ensure that
19 never such a thing would happen, which doesn't require that there is
20 already an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is aiming at it never
21 happening that in an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, so therefore the
22 objection is denied. And I would advise you to carefully listen to the
23 response to -- of Mr. Tieger before you -- and to my comment on that
24 before you raise the matter again.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER: Well, perhaps --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for a break perhaps but --
3 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We're near to a time for a break if this would be a
5 suitable moment.
6 MR. TIEGER: I was going to show a document that's directly
7 related to this.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do that and take the break after.
9 MR. TIEGER: 65 ter 31916.
10 Q. This will be very quick, Mr. Stanic, before the break. It's an
11 article entitled: "Overnight to Serbia," from an issue of Politika on
12 5 March 1992, dateline Zvornik Vlasenica 4 March --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which part of the B/C/S version, please?
14 MR. TIEGER: It's top right, Your Honour.
15 Q. And I'm just going to refer to one portion of the document where
16 you're quoted, Mr. Stanic, and I think that's the second paragraph to the
17 end where you say:
18 "We shall under no circumstances let any" -- he referred to
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina's independence, that is, the possibility of the
20 event of a declaration of its independence and state that:
21 "... we shall, under no circumstances, let any of its laws,
22 regulations, or similar, enter a Serbian household, said Milenko Stanic,
23 Prime Minister of the SAO Birac."
24 So just to confirm, Mr. Stanic, that's a reflection of what you
25 said before about your determination to prevent the possibility of the
1 laws of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina from entering
2 a Serbian household?
3 A. This Bosnia and Herzegovina that was being created --
4 Q. Mr. Stanic --
5 A. -- by Alija Izetbegovic you see here --
6 Q. Mr. Stanic, excuse me, I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first could you please answer the question,
8 whether this reflects what you said. You were not asked yet to explain
9 what you said, but first whether it reflects what you said.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a lot of free
11 interpretation by the journalist here.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Does this reflect what you said? And if not, would
13 you then tell us, not to explain what you meant, but tell us what you
14 then said if this is not what you said.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the laws of this
16 independent and sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina that was being created
17 by the Party of Democratic Action, SDA, headed by Alija Izetbegovic,
18 could not operate on the territories inhabited by the Serbian people.
19 And there are some more mistakes here.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government, the
22 Executive Council, the SAO, the autonomous region was being created,
23 et cetera.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you explain why in this article again you are
25 referred to be Prime Minister of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can I put it? I introduced
2 myself by my proper title, president of the Executive Council of the
3 Autonomous Region or the Autonomous District. I don't know how the
4 journalist perceived it.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, but I just -- if I may, I apologise.
7 Q. Mr. Stanic, the explanation is pretty clear, isn't it? As you
8 explained before, the Executive Council at the municipal level, and also
9 at the regional level, is the equivalent of the government and so -- and
10 at the government level in the republic, the president of the government
11 is called the prime minister. And so that's why this designation appears
12 here; right?
13 A. Yes, that's an executive body. It's an executive council and in
14 journalist practice they often call it the government.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. TIEGER: And I tender that document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31916 receives number P7084,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'll take a break of
22 20 minutes and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, while the witness is leaving the
24 courtroom, I would just mention that the excerpts from 65 ter 02334 have
25 been uploaded and provisionally assigned P7077.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was done already -- oh, yes, we reserved
3 that number for it. Yes. Admitted into evidence, P7077.
4 We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I take it you've come to deal with the
8 matter which was still on the agenda. Now in order not to make you a
9 hostage in this courtroom, I give you an opportunity to address the
10 matter immediately so that you are free if you wish to leave again.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. As I understand it, we are
12 here in relation to the document D758 and that one is the -- it was a
13 handwritten statement of an individual that also -- the original also
14 contained a typewritten telex of the same statement that had some changes
15 in the date, some typographical errors in the date, and the name of the
16 individual in question was incorrectly stated in the English translation.
17 We have received from CLSS a new translation. It has been uploaded into
18 e-court, but I see that it still has the same wrong name for the
19 individual, the first name, as -- it's missing one letter.
20 And as to the dates, the date discrepancy is in the two original
21 documents, one handwritten and one typewritten, such that the CLSS would
22 not be able to change that date. So we're left with two originals that
23 have a discrepancy in the date, one says 1953, one says 1956. I don't
24 know what Your Honours want to do with that. We could perhaps keep it --
25 split it into two documents maybe and then have a translation made of the
1 second document or I don't know how to address that where we have two
2 B/C/S originals from the original source that have differing dates for
3 what purports to be the same source document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I could imagine that the parties agree that if
5 there are two original documents about an event that certainly there must
6 have been an event, and therefore that both versions -- where it may be
7 very difficult at this moment to decide on which is the most accurate
8 one, that we admit both into evidence and that the parties can argue
9 whatever they want on the basis of the two versions and make us believe
10 which version is better than the other one and why.
11 If that would be a solution, Mr. Tieger -- because let's not
12 forget there are two documents in existence, and to that extent, of
13 course, you can have in evidence two documents --
14 MR. TIEGER: I wasn't privy to earlier discussions, but it sounds
15 like a very Solomon-like resolution -- sort of actually the opposite of a
16 Solomon-like resolution but ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Ivetic, where you said there was still
18 something with the name, is that -- is there a translation error in it or
19 is it -- or transcription error or is that also one of the divergent
20 elements of these two documents?
21 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honours, both the handwritten and the
22 typewritten original have the gentleman's first name as S-e-n-a-i-d and
23 the English translation has S-e-n-a-d. So it's either a typographical
24 error or a mistake as to the name. I did not want to have us change the
25 official translation but we could also do that just to address that one
1 clear discrepancy.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would -- if it's just one letter in a name,
3 then perhaps we could live with that, all parties are -- unless it would
4 be a matter which would create a lot of dispute.
5 MR. IVETIC: I don't see it creating dispute.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: Especially now that we've done it on the record it
8 hopefully will be clear in everyone's minds what we're talking about.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, we can do two things. If we make -- if
10 we separate them, then of course already in terms of numbers one would
11 easily lose sight of the other one. So another possibility is to have
12 them all, both with the wrong translations in evidence under one number,
13 and that we then -- the description would then be: "Two handwritten and
14 typewritten original versions of," and then what it is. And that we have
15 two B/C/S pages and two -- one B/C/S version with English translation,
16 the other B/C/S version with English translation, have everything all
18 MR. IVETIC: In that case, Your Honours, we still do not have an
19 official CLSS translation of the handwritten. I have not yet --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. IVETIC: -- got word back on that, so we can't yet make it
22 formal. But if we do it that way, I will make sure that both get into
23 e-court and both get linked to the appropriate original so we can tell
24 the translations apart.
25 MR. TIEGER: I want to assist as much as possible while
1 Mr. Ivetic is in the courtroom. So let me say that insofar as the
2 resolution of these translation issues is concerned, that makes perfect
3 sense to me. I apologise for not being more conversant with this
4 particular issue and if the -- if the underlying issue was related to --
5 in any way to anything more than the translations, that is, if there was
6 a some sort of provenance issue or authenticity issue or anything else,
7 then I'm not in a position to speak on that. But as I say, in terms of
8 the solutions the Court has devised on the spot for these translation --
9 not translation but these smallish discrepancies we've been talking about
10 for a document that is otherwise coming in, then I'm in agreement.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: I thought that was the only issues that we had with
13 the document when we MFI'd it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MR. IVETIC: It's from November so my memory's a little --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do the following: The translations will be
17 verified. Both originals will be part of the exhibit with verified
18 translations for each version we'll finally then admit into evidence,
19 unless any of the parties will come up with any other disputed matter in
20 relation to those documents. If we proceed like that and if you would
21 let us know when everything would be uploaded, then we could proceed like
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question here. Is it the
24 position that in fact the typewritten document was typewritten by the
25 same author of the handwritten one?
1 MR. IVETIC: I don't know, Your Honours. I think as I recall
2 from the witness who was on the stand, he wasn't sure if that was done by
3 the same individual or if someone else in the police where the statement
4 was taken had prepared the typewritten version after receiving the
5 handwritten version. I believe that's my recollection of the testimony
6 of the witness as to this document.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But would --
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that the witness testified that
9 he thought that a colleague would have done it. That is my recollection,
10 but again I'm not giving a guarantee for it.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But logic and this explanation seem to suggest
12 that, in fact, the handwritten one would be the original and the other
13 one is a transcription. Is it --
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, but of course in terms -- when I
15 say "original," I mean original language from the original source. They
16 both came to us as originals in the B/C/S language together, and then of
17 course the CLSS does a translation. And I think they only did a
18 translation of the typewritten one, assuming that the documents are --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Identical.
20 MR. IVETIC: -- identical, which we now find they may not be
21 which is why we need to seek the --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do understand that. The point I'm making is the
23 author would probably have written in his hand or her hand and somebody
24 who speaks the same language would have typed exactly what was typed
25 there and probably made a mistake in typing.
1 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the handwritten one seems to me on logic to be
3 the original and the one that should be relied on.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But as far as I understand, we have not
5 explored this issue from that point of view yet.
6 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think we only noticed that there was a translation
8 issue and there were two originals. And whether now the transcribing
9 person intentionally changed it or whether -- what the purpose or the
10 thoughts behind it are or whether it's just a mistake has not been
11 explored. And I think it's in that area where I suggested that if any
12 party would like to argue anything on such matters that we would hear
13 from them, but that is not a reason as such not to admit both, both
14 documents originating from a source. I do not even know whether the
15 typewritten version was the first one and then copied in handwriting.
16 That's still -- theoretically still a possibility as well. We have not
17 explored that. Once it's in evidence, the parties may argue whatever
18 they want about the probative value of each of the versions and what it
19 exactly would prove.
20 MR. TIEGER: And just to confirm, Mr. President, I appreciate the
21 conditional nature of the Court's discussion about this so far, I have
22 now confirmed that the original objection to the admission of this
23 document did not revolve around the issues we've just discussed, that is,
24 the -- but instead, on the issue of whether a sufficient foundation was
25 laid and the information about the document, the more conventional types
1 of objections that have been made to documents of this nature. That can
2 be found at transcript 28028 through 29. And so we're -- well, you've
3 resolved part of the potential -- the major part of the issue still
4 remains as --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
6 MR. TIEGER: -- raised by the Prosecution at the time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now after this discussion, Mr. Ivetic continues to
8 take care that translations are there, proper translation, everything is
9 uploaded. And then you will consider, Mr. Tieger, whether the objections
10 still stand; and if they do, we will decide on those as part of our
11 decision on admission apart from the other technical aspects. I leave it
12 to that.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, may I then be excused from the
16 courtroom to attend to other matters.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was the whole purpose, Mr. Ivetic, to not
18 to wait for any later moment.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Stanic. We needed a bit of time
23 for administrative matters so you had to wait a little bit longer.
24 Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Mr. Stanic, just to bring you back to where we were, we had been
2 discussing before the adjournment the issues surrounding the conclusion
3 about taking power and the determination that the laws of a sovereign and
4 independent Bosnia would not enter Serbian households. By the end of
5 May 1992, the government of the SAO Birac had passed a decision on -- or
6 at least had resolved the issue of the determination of the borders of
7 the region and had passed a decision on the "safe moving out of the
8 Muslims." Correct?
9 A. We discussed that, yes.
10 MR. TIEGER: And in that connection if we could call up P3737.
11 Q. This is a "Javnost" article dated 6 June 1992 about reporting on
12 decisions of 30 May 1992, indicating in part:
13 "The Government of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac
14 determined the borders of this region on 30 May ..."
15 And goes on to note it sent an invitation to the representatives
16 of neighbouring municipalities. And it further notes:
17 "At the same time, a decision was passed on the 'safe moving out
18 of Muslims from that area' ..."
19 JUDGE ORIE: It reads "moving," not "moving out," but -- at least
20 that's what I --
21 MR. TIEGER: Oh, I'm sorry, correct, "safe moving of Muslims from
22 that area ..."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. And that was the -- so this reflects the decision that you
1 confirmed a moment ago; correct?
2 A. All the municipalities in the region had a problem because there
3 were many implications from the populace to move out and to go to other
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there. You start
6 explaining what you consider relevant to explain, whereas Mr. Tieger puts
7 a question to you and we would first like to hear an answer to that
8 question. And if any further explanation is required, the parties will
9 ask for it or the Bench.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Right. So the -- just if you -- I'll give you a chance to
13 explain if that's necessary, but I would appreciate, as the Court
14 indicated, an answer to my question and that is: This article reflects
15 the decision that you confirmed a moment ago when I asked you about that;
17 A. This is a journalistic story.
18 Q. Mr. Stanic, I asked you about whether or not by the end of May
19 the Government of SAO Birac had determined the borders of the region and
20 passed a decision on the safe moving out of the Muslims, and you
21 confirmed that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. Or you confirmed that you discussed that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's be clear on that, although then --
1 already then you didn't ask -- answer the question. Did you only discuss
2 it or was any decision taken?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no decision. We
4 discussed both that and the other issue.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Now, first of all, you say looking at this article which states
8 clearly that a determination was made and a decision was passed, you
10 "This is a journalistic story."
11 Now, when asked about this article in the Karadzic case you
12 stated something of a similar nature, saying you didn't know what
13 "Javnost" was and what this was about; right?
14 A. As far as I can remember, we did not talk about that in the
15 Karadzic case. A different attorney was on the side of the OTP.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, was it discussed in the Karadzic case,
17 irrespective of who asked you the questions?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, your comment was wrong. The question was:
20 "Now, when asked about this article in the Karadzic case ..."
21 That was the question. It didn't refer to who asked you that
23 Mr. Tieger.
24 And then Mr. Tieger summarised what you said, that you came up
25 with similar comments like that you didn't know what "Javnost" was and
1 what this was all about. Is that what you said at the time?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
3 You're asking me to say yes or no to a question that can't be answered
4 with a yes or no.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 31909.
7 Q. That's your testimony in the Karadzic case, Mr. Stanic, and I
8 want to turn your attention to what you said at page 43, transcript page
9 in Karadzic 34024.
10 "Q. This is a 'Javnost' article of the 6th of June, 1992. So
11 when they make reference to the decision made by the government of the
12 Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac, that didn't -- you're saying that
13 this newspaper must be wrong as well?
14 "A. I am seeing this document for the first time. I would need
15 to review it in detail. 'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is
16 and what is the source of information like this --"
17 So that was your testimony about -- in connection with this
18 article when first asked in the Karadzic case, Mr. Stanic; correct?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Now, I want to take a look at this mysterious "Javnost" that you
21 purport not to know about.
22 MR. TIEGER: First of all, can we turn to 65 ter 14321.
23 Q. This is a document dated 13 September 1990 which shows us the
24 origin of "Javnost" under the heading: "Decision to launch the
25 Javnost ... newspaper ..." and it goes on to describe its -- the
1 objectives for "Javnost" as providing information, among other things,
2 about the SDS as a political factor.
3 So this document confirms, does it not, Mr. Stanic, that the --
4 that "Javnost" was launched by, established by, the SDS, this is signed
5 by Dr. Karadzic, for the purpose of expounding the views, among other
6 things -- for the purpose of expounding, among other things, the views of
7 the SDS?
8 A. I never said I didn't know what "Javnost" was. I said I was
9 seeing this newspaper story for the first time. That's the mistake.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said more. Could it be read to the
11 witness, Mr. Tieger, could you -- I don't have it on my screen any
12 further at this moment.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. This is what you said to the Trial Chamber in the Karadzic case:
15 "'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is ..."
16 A. I think I didn't say that. Maybe if the question was put to me,
17 maybe it didn't specify that it was published in the "Javnost." I know
18 what "Javnost" is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Witness, are you telling us that what is
20 recorded is not accurate? Then we'll check it on the basis of the audio
21 because as it was read out to you, you clearly referred yourself to
22 "Javnost" as it was recorded. And then you said: "I don't know whose
23 magazine that is ..." So you yourself used the name and you yourself are
24 recorded as having said: "I don't know whose magazine that is," whereas
25 today you tell us that you know what "Javnost" is and whose magazine that
1 is. If you say: That's not what I said at the time, we'll verify it
2 because such a clear contradiction should be verified before we draw any
3 conclusions. If you say you didn't say it, then we'll verify it. Please
4 tell us whether we have to do that.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this text for the first time,
6 the one that was published. I don't recall any questions regarding
7 "Javnost". If it was put to me --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, a minute ago you said you didn't say this.
9 You also said that you do not whether "Javnost" was part of the question.
10 "Maybe if the question was put to me, maybe it didn't specify
11 that it was published in the 'Javnost.'"
12 As we read it to you, it's not only that the question was about
13 "Javnost" but even you yourself referred to "Javnost" as the magazine you
14 didn't know what it was. If you say that's what -- I accept that that's
15 what I said, then we take that. If you say: No, that's not what I said,
16 then we'll verify on the basis of audio. Do we have to verify it, yes or
17 no? That's my question. Do you still deny that you said that at the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would need to look at the
20 transcript of that trial in detail in order to make sure. So my answer
21 is: I knew what "Javnost" was but I saw the text for the first time --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's all clearly recorded there. It's
23 just the two lines, you don't have to read the whole of the transcript,
24 it's just verification of those two lines. Do we need to verify it on
25 the basis of the audio? And if you say -- if you don't give an answer to
1 that question, as you didn't do two or three times, then we'll have it
2 verified anyhow.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I gave the answer. I know
4 what "Javnost" is but I don't know the text. It was the first time that
5 I saw it. That was my answer. If it was different in the previous
6 session, then I would need to know the context in order to know why I
7 said that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Why you said that, that means that you admit that
9 you said it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not accepting it. I'm just
11 saying that the question was perhaps unclear.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it will be verified on the basis of the audio.
13 Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And for the record, Mr. Stanic, the context is that you were
16 asked about an article in "Javnost," which we see in P7077 is referred to
17 as the Official Gazette of the Serbian people, which states that the
18 government of SAO Birac made a decision on the safe moving of the
19 Muslims. And you responded by saying: "I would need -- I'm seeing this
20 document for the first time, I would need to review it in detail.
21 'Javnost,' I don't know whose magazine that is." That's the context.
22 And now the Court is asking you whether you admit that you said that or
23 we need to go back to the tape and have it verified?
24 A. There were about ten "Javnost" publications. Perhaps I was not
25 told that it was "Javnost" that was published in Pale and that's why I
1 said I don't know the context in which the question is put, but now I
2 gave the answer to your question. I know what "Javnost" is but I did not
3 see that text.
4 Q. And you've said --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stanic, we've heard enough about what you said
6 about this matter and the Chamber considers it best to have it verified
7 on the basis of the audio.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Did you and the government of the SAO Birac determine the borders
11 of the region, or do you dispute that too?
12 A. We proposed the towns and citizens that would become part of the
13 area and we proposed that to the Government of Republika Srpska. We
14 proposed that as the basis for future negotiations.
15 Q. So you didn't simply discuss it. You determined what you
16 considered they should be and then you raised it at the republic level;
18 A. We couldn't determine that because we were not authorised to do
19 that. We just reviewed it on the basis of the deputies comprising the
20 Assembly and their proposals as to which regions could become part of
21 Republika Srpska.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's cut matters short again. Earlier you said:
23 We didn't decide, we discussed it. Now I do understand that you
24 discussed it and that resulted in proposals that were made.
25 Please proceed.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Correct.
2 MR. TIEGER: I failed to tender 65 ter 14321.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14321 receives number P7085,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. I'm going to turn your attention to one of the meetings you
10 talked about when asked questions in direct examination.
11 MR. TIEGER: That's at P353, page 248 of the English and 246 of
12 the B/C/S. That's the meeting in Zvornik -- and when I referred to 246
13 of the Serbian, that's in the transcribed version.
14 Q. We see at that meeting, Mr. Stanic, that you began, once you had
15 the floor, by saying:
16 "We have defined the western borders in the area of the Birac
17 region" --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The B/C/S version is not on the screen.
19 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now there it is.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Did that reflect the discussion and determination that was
23 reflected in the article regarding May 30th or had further steps been
24 taken toward the definition of the boundaries of the area of the Birac
25 region between May 30th and this meeting on June 30th?
1 A. We proposed the boundaries. "Defined" seems to indicate more it
2 was a decision. We could not suggest or propose a decision, it was not
3 in our remit, but we could suggest the municipalities, the areas that
4 could become part of Republika Srpska. The general wrote here,
5 "definisali," "defined," I don't think that I used that term, but I used
6 the term "predlozili smo," "we suggested."
7 Q. All right. That's one part of what was discussed in the Javnost
8 article. Let me turn to the other part and that is the decision on the
9 safe moving of the Muslims which you say was not a decision but merely a
11 MR. TIEGER: And in that respect I'd like to call P190 -- yes,
12 P190, please.
13 Q. This is an order from Commander Andric of the Birac Brigade dated
14 31 May 1992.
15 "Pursuant to the decision of the 'Birac' Serb Autonomous Region
16 government which regulates the moving out of the Muslim population from
17 the territory of the 'Birac' SAR ..."
18 Just like the Javnost article, Mr. Stanic, this is a reflection
19 of the fact that the Birac government, Serbian Autonomous Region
20 government, issued a decision on the moving or moving out of the Muslim
21 population from its territory; correct?
22 A. I state that it is not.
23 Q. So both the Official Gazette of the Serbian people Javnost and
24 Commander Andric, the very day after the decision, referred to a decision
25 which according to you had never happened; is that your explanation?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, the final item on the order in P190 states that:
3 "The Prime Minister of the 'Birac' SAR is to establish contact
4 urgently regarding negotiations on the exchange of prisoners."
5 Now, as we've established before, the reference to prime minister
6 of Birac SAR is a reference to you, Mr. Stanic; correct?
7 A. It is nowhere recorded that a soldier can order the president of
8 the Assembly what to do. What he wrote --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whether it could be written, whether there
10 was any authority to do that, that was not the question. The question
11 was whether you agree that the reference to the prime minister of the
12 Birac SAR would be a reference to you. That's the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the signatory meant, I don't
14 know. It's possible that he meant me, but he could not have issued these
15 orders to me on any basis whatsoever.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, again you think it necessary to add what you
17 find important, whereas the question simply was whether he referred to
18 you. You've answered that question that he possibly has done so.
19 Next question, please, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. What this indicates is that you were either to receive a copy of
22 this so that Andric's concern that you undertake action regarding
23 exchange of prisoners can be communicated or that he had already
24 communicated with you about it; right?
25 A. I saw this document when I came here to testify in the
1 Radovan Karadzic case for the first time. It was not addressed to me.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please answer the question again,
3 otherwise we'll have to do without your testimony. If you don't answer
4 the questions, then we'll just look at the documents and have to do,
5 unfortunately, without your testimony on the matters you were asked
7 Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Is it your testimony, Mr. Stanic, that nobody, either
10 Major Andric personally or an emissary conveying this concern,
11 communicated to you the concerns about the perceived need for exchanges
12 of prisoners?
13 A. Your question was: Did you receive this document? And I said
14 no. And I'm also saying that nobody conveyed to me, including
15 Mr. Andric, that a document like this exists. I saw it for the first
16 time when I came here to testify in the Karadzic case. I don't know.
17 Perhaps there were problems in the interpretation, but I cannot answer
18 differently to the questions that are being put to me.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stanic, who was the prime minister of Birac
20 SAR on the 31st of May, 1992?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the president of the
22 Executive Board. I already stated that.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On that day?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that now. I said
25 that they had two Executive Board meetings and two Assembly sessions --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not talking about sessions --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I think that we --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not talking about sessions. I want to know
4 if you have been the prime minister or the president on the 31st of May,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about those meetings --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, I'm not asking you about -- stop --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because after that -- after
9 those meetings there were no --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, I'm not asking about any meeting. Have
11 you been the president on the 31st of May, 1992, yes or no?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure that the autonomous
13 region was working at that time. I think that it had stopped working.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What was your position on the 31st of May, 1992?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President of the Municipal Assembly
16 of Vlasenica.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was very difficult to elicit this answer
18 from you. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, but I would have one
20 very simple question.
21 Carefully listen to the question and answer it directly. Did
22 anyone discuss with you or were you in any way involved in negotiations
23 on the exchange of prisoners briefly after the 31st of May, 1992?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Vlasenica we
25 had formed a commission which contacted the Muslim side, but at the
1 regional level there were no such negotiations and there was no
3 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask about a level, I didn't ask whether a
4 committee on the other side was established. So I do understand that
5 implicitly you're saying that you were involved at the municipal level in
6 negotiations or at least communications about the exchange of prisoners?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not personally. Not as a municipal
8 official or a regional official, no.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If not officially, unofficially what did you do, you
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is not clear to me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You say you were not officially involved. Then I'd
13 like to know how you were then involved if not officially. What then
14 exactly was your involvement?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't participate in it. I
16 didn't take part.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do? If you say: I didn't do anything
18 in this respect, then it would have been easier that your previous answer
19 would have been: I was not involved, I never discussed it with anyone.
20 Did you personally do anything in this context?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this, no, nothing.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, Mr. Tieger, let me just clarify a
24 little point here.
25 Judge Fluegge asked you a question: What was your position on
1 the 31st of May, 1992? You then said that you were president of the
2 Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica. I ask you a question. On that same
3 day, 31st of May, were you also not the president of the Birac SAO?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date when the -- that Assembly
5 stopped functioning is not specifically known. At that time there were
6 no --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Executive Board or Assembly
9 meetings being held at that time. We had stopped working.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I don't understand your answer because you say
11 the date when that Assembly stopped functioning is not specifically
12 known. Now, you -- in the same breath you say that the Executive Board
13 or Assembly meetings were being held at that time. You had stopped
14 working. You can't say you didn't know, you don't know the date, and
15 then say on that date you were not working. Those are two inconsistent
16 questions -- answers.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Executive Council did not work
18 because the organs did not convene. After this second session of the
19 Assembly --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to make sure that we are clear, can you just
21 answer my question directly, yes or no. On the 31st of May, 1992, were
22 you not the president of the Birac SAO? Just say yes or no.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those organs after --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again I'm going to stop you --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the second session --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you. I'm insisting on
2 whether -- just say yes or no. Were you on the 31st of May, 1992, the
3 president of the Birac SAO?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not divested of that function
5 ever because the organs never convened. The organs died off, they ceased
6 to exist. For as long as they functioned, I had that post --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I stop you -- no, no, no --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the last session was held and
9 after that --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look, I stop you, I stop you. The record will
11 show that you don't want to answer my question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Stanic, in late May and June 1992, you knew very well that
15 the number of Muslims who were being detained and imprisoned was mounting
16 and becoming a problem, as reflected by the concern we see from Andric in
17 his order.
18 A. We had the information.
19 Q. For example, in the other one of the meetings with General Mladic
20 that you referred to in your testimony earlier this morning in direct
21 examination, that is, the June 25th meeting, you told Mladic that:
22 "Over 800 prisoners, 200 of whom are women and children who were
23 brought last night, pose a problem."
24 A. In preparation for the meeting with the Main Staff, I received
25 information from the president of the Executive Board that last night a
1 few buses had arrived with prisoners who were placed at the secondary
2 school. I informed the General about this. I did not know the exact
3 number, but at the meeting one of those people who were present mentioned
4 these numbers in the secondary school or the total number. We did not
5 have the precise information. I don't think that anyone at that meeting
6 knew that.
7 Q. Now, by that time the Susica camp had already been established;
9 A. As I said, that was a reception centre. In the beginning it was
10 a reception centre.
11 Q. What is the camp that Major Andric orders be set up in Vlasenica
12 in item 1 of his order of May 31st?
13 A. Evidently that was not specified. At the time the army -- well,
14 perhaps that was -- actually, it wasn't because General Andric belonged
15 to units of the Yugoslav People's Army, which later transformed. And
16 some of those members remained in the region and he probably meant the
17 buildings that were owned by the Territorial Defence, or rather, the army
18 and those were the ones in Susica. The secondary school centre was our
19 problem where also that night a certain number of prisoners were brought
21 Q. So these prisoners were brought to the school rather than Susica
22 because Susica was already full itself?
23 A. I don't know that that was so. I just received information just
24 before the meeting that there was a substantial number of prisoners in
25 the secondary school centre. I think the director of the secondary
1 school centre asked the president of the Executive Board to submit
2 information about that so that he could prepare the secondary school to
3 begin work.
4 Q. And whatever you call Susica, reception centre or camp as Andric
5 did, you knew by June 25th that there were hundreds and hundreds of
6 Muslims detained in Susica or present in Susica; right?
7 A. I didn't know the numbers, but I did know that there was a
8 reception centre.
9 Q. And the reason there were hundreds of people in Susica and
10 hundreds of people taken to the school in Vlasenica is because of
11 Andric's orders to move women and children out of Muslim villages and
12 take the men to collection centres; isn't that right?
13 A. I don't know that that was the only reason. I think that this
14 order of Andric's referred more to the problem of prisoners from the area
15 of the Kalesija municipality.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you say you don't know whether that's the
17 only reason. It was one of the reasons, I understand from that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the reasons.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: I was told we break at 1.20. I guess we're there.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we're there.
22 Could the witness -- we'll take a break and we'd like to see you
23 back in 20 minutes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask the Chamber, I have a
25 small request, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Depends on what it is. If it's appropriate, please
2 put the question to us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It concerns our work and the
4 adjournment. I've been here since Saturday. I've come to testify and
5 I'm prepared to work for the next three days uninterruptedly but on
6 Monday I have obligations and commitments at work that I cannot postpone.
7 So I would appreciate it if we could continue working until we finish.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- we'll consider whether that's possible.
9 You certainly would have assisted us by directly answering the questions
10 because it took quite a lot of time to take you back to what was really
11 asked. But we'll consider it. You may now follow the usher.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, in this context could you give us an
14 indication as to where we stand in terms of time?
15 MR. TIEGER: I certainly -- I'll finish -- I believe I'll finish
16 today, although, as the Court has noted, my projections have been skewed
17 by the nature of -- well, the indirect responses. But I'm still trying
18 and I had anticipated being able to finish well in advance of the end of
19 the session. That's not quite as certain, but I'll do my best to do
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an indication, as
22 matters stand now, how much time you would need?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it would take more
24 than two to three minutes, I think.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we try to conclude the evidence
1 of this witness today so that we can meet his wishes to return. We'll
2 take a break and make it a bit shorter now, take a break of 17 minutes.
3 We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we've considered your request. Everyone
8 will do their utmost best to conclude your testimony today. You
9 certainly could help by just directly answering the questions and only
10 answering the questions. And if we fail to do that, we'll continue not
11 until Monday.
12 Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Stanic, I had asked you about the mounting problem of
15 hundreds and hundreds of Muslims detained and whether or not the Andric
16 orders were responsible for that. In that connection let me show you two
17 of those orders. The first is 65 ter 31907. This is an order dated the
18 26th of May, 1992, which directs, among other things:
19 "Move women and children out of the Muslim villages to Kalesija
20 and Gracanica, whereas the men are to be taken away to collection
22 And then if we could look quickly at P466, an order two days
23 later, another order from Major Andric, this one the 28th of May. In
24 item 6 we see the provision:
25 "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and
1 co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried
2 out. Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military
3 service are to be placed in camps for exchange."
4 These two orders, Mr. Stanic, produced the ever-increasing
5 problem with the number of Muslim prisoners, some of whom were brought to
6 Susica, some of whom, as you earlier noted, were initially at least
7 brought to the school; correct?
8 A. Probably.
9 MR. TIEGER: I tender 65 ter 31907.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31907 receives number P7086,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Mr. Stanic, we discussed the decision of the Birac SAR government
17 regulating the moving out of the Muslim population, reflected in the
18 31 May Andric order [Realtime transcript read in error "article"] and the
19 6 June Javnost article. The moving out of the Muslims was, indeed,
20 precisely what was envisioned by republic-level and Birac-level officials
21 in order to define the borders of the Serbian state; correct?
22 A. No, that's not correct.
23 Q. Well, let's look at what the president of the SDS Executive Board
24 and the co-ordinator for the Birac region said in late July 1992 at the
25 17th Assembly Session.
1 MR. TIEGER: That's P4581.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tieger, when you referred to the text signed
3 by -- on the 31st of May by Andric, that was an order, isn't it? It is
4 not an article as recorded.
5 MR. TIEGER: I certainly intended to say "order." Thank you for
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said "order."
8 MR. TIEGER: Let's turn first to pages 71 through 72 in the
9 English, and 73 through 74 in the B/C/S. So we turn to 71 first in
10 English and in B/C/S 73. Better -- okay. If we turn back one page in
11 the Serbian, please. In the Serbian, not the English. So in the Serbian
12 we see the beginning of Mr. Dukic's speech. Thank you. Now we see the
13 beginning in English. Now if we turn to the next page in English,
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The speech starts at the bottom of the page.
16 MR. TIEGER: Yeah. Okay.
17 There we see Mr. Dukic talking about borders and he says:
18 "We say that borders are drawn in the field. The people draw the
19 borders, you must admit the state of facts ..."
20 And he continues, and that's in the middle of the page in English
21 you can see:
22 "So the option is to take at least as much as belongs to us and I
23 will tell you that we have not even come close to that ..."
24 And if we can continue on to the next page in English and in
25 Serbian, please. And perhaps one more page in the Serbian.
1 Mr. Dukic had earlier asked:
2 "So I'm asking you, gentlemen, why we expelled all Muslim judges
3 from Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik," and he concludes with his
4 description saying:
5 "If we move further there is Birac which is 100 to" -- he had
6 been talking about Bijeljina at one point.
7 "If we move further there is Birac which is 100 to 108 kilometres
8 away and has 120.000 Muslims - that is how many there were, but I hope
9 that has at least been halved - and 90.000 Serbs."
10 That's a reflection of the understanding as expressed by the
11 president of the SDS Executive Board and the co-ordinator of the Birac
12 region that drawing the borders means the reduction of the Muslims within
13 the areas defined as Serbian; correct?
14 A. I cannot comment on what Rajko Dukic said.
15 Q. He was a leading republic-level official. He was the
16 co-ordinator of the Birac region who was at meetings with you. He's
17 telling the Assembly, the Bosnian Serb Assembly what the objective is and
18 what he hopes will be accomplished, that corresponds with what we see
19 accomplished in the orders that we looked at a few moments ago. That's a
20 reflection of the common understanding regarding the need for moving out
21 of the Muslims from the areas that were to be Serbian. Isn't that the
23 A. Muslims left Vlasenica under different circumstances, different
24 from what you're trying to say.
25 Q. Mr. Stanic, you've already acknowledged that the Andric orders,
1 at least in part, were responsible for the mounting number of Muslims who
2 were detained in Susica and, as you're well aware, later moved either to
3 Batkovic or exchanged.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as we see now from Dukic, that's the implementation of a
6 particular desire and objective, to reduce the Muslim population?
7 A. It's possible, but I can't comment on his contribution to this
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, let's move on.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 40 you state, that is, paragraph 40 of
12 your statement, you state that:
13 "We were not even able to ask the opinion of the leadership in
14 Sarajevo and later in Pale on any problems because the telephone lines
15 were mostly down and travelling on the roads was not safe."
16 And then you further state that you "often went to other
17 municipalities and consulted them in order to establish how they resolved
18 certain problems."
19 Now, first let me briefly address your representations with
20 respect to communications. The fact is, Mr. Stanic, that communications
21 were considerably better than you suggest here, that you received
22 information from Pale and you in Vlasenica got information back to Pale
23 during the period April, May, and June?
24 A. Many people lost their lives on those roads. As to your
25 assessment, our communications may have been better compared to some
2 Q. Well, let's take a look very quickly - and I say "quickly" in a
3 continuing effort to conclude today if we can - at some of those
4 communications and I want to show you first a series of three documents
5 relating to the appointment of Mr. Djokanovic, the war commissioner who's
6 mentioned in your statement.
7 MR. TIEGER: So the first one would be 65 ter 16217. This is a
8 document dated the 10th of June, 1992, it's Djokanovic's appointment by
9 Dr. Karadzic as commissioner. And it refers also to the decision on the
10 establishment of war commissions of 10 June of the same date.
11 The next document I want to show you is P3737 -- sorry, 3735. My
13 Q. This is a document dated the 16th of June, six days later, and
14 reflects the appointment of the War Commission in Vlasenica municipality
15 by Dr. Djokanovic and you pursuant to the decision of the Bosnian Serb
16 Presidency six days earlier. So on 10 June, Dr. Karadzic makes a
17 decision. On 16 June, you and Djokanovic appoint the War Commission;
19 A. That's correct.
20 MR. TIEGER: Now if we could turn to P3046.
21 Q. This is a document the very next day, that is June 17th, in which
22 Dr. Karadzic confirms the appointments of the members of the War
23 Commission named in the 16 June document; right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So the chronology is: On the 10th of June, Pale issues a
1 decision, that is, Dr. Karadzic. On the 16th of June, Vlasenica issues a
2 decision, that's you and Mr. Djokanovic. And on the 17th of June, Pale,
3 that is, Dr. Karadzic, confirms the decision. Correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 MR. TIEGER: And let me tender 65 ter 16217 in that case.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16217 receives number P7087,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 MR. TIEGER: One more short series that are this time two
12 documents reflecting communications between Pale and Vlasenica. If I
13 could first have P3982.
14 Q. This is a document dated the 29th of April, 1992, emanating from
15 the Serbian Autonomous District of Birac Crisis Staff. It is pursuant to
16 the decision of the Council for National Security of the Serbian Republic
17 of BH on general mobilisation. And as we see above, it is received by
18 Bratunac -- you see the stamp, by Bratunac on the 30th of April, 1992.
19 MR. TIEGER: Now, I indicated that it was -- or the document
20 indicates it was pursuant to the decision of the National Security
21 Council on general mobilisation. In that connection if we could have
22 65 ter 02479.
23 Q. This is a record of the session of the National Security Council
24 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the government held on
25 the 27th of April, 1992. And if we look down the page at about the third
1 paragraph it provides:
2 "It was decided to conduct full-scale mobilisation ..."
3 So, Mr. Stanic, the chronology was: Pale, that is, the NSC in
4 this case, made a decision to conduct general or full-scale mobilisation.
5 Birac acted on it two days later on the 29th of April, 1992, and that
6 decision by the Birac region authorities was received by Bratunac the
7 next day, on 30 April 1992; correct?
8 A. Not correct.
9 Q. Okay --
10 A. If I may explain.
11 Q. Yes, please.
12 A. The previous document is a document which was wilfully signed by
13 Miroslav Deronjic for Bratunac. There was no Crisis Staff that was
14 formed in the region and it did not function or operate, and for that
15 reason the document was processed or given a number only at the municipal
16 Assembly in Bratunac.
17 Q. Just to clarify quickly. Mr. Deronjic is another official on
18 SAO Birac; right? We can find his name in one of the earlier documents
19 as a member, I believe, of the Political Council?
20 A. I think that he was a deputy in the Assembly, but he was not a
21 member of the Executive Board of the region. And he did not have the
22 authority to form a Crisis Staff. I think we're talking about the
23 Crisis Staff in the municipality of Bratunac.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tieger, I thought these documents you are
25 tendering them to show the efficiency of communication, irrespective of
1 the merits of the document?
2 MR. TIEGER: That's exactly right. I was going to get to that
3 point just now.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you can get to that point.
5 MR. TIEGER: Thanks. And the issue about Deronjic and the
6 Political Council will be resolved by the documents already in evidence.
7 Q. But the fact remains, Mr. Stanic, that Pale issued a decision on
8 the 27th of April, 1992. It was received no later than the
9 29th of April. And it was disseminated that that decision in response to
10 the Pale decision was disseminated and received by Bratunac, for example,
11 a day later; that's correct, right?
12 A. Probably, yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. TIEGER: And thank you, Your Honour. I tender 65 ter 02479.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2479 receives number P7088,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P7088 is admitted.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. And, Mr. Stanic, this will be my last issue and it continues to
21 focus on your assertion regarding both communication and how you
22 attempted to resolve it by speaking with representatives of
23 municipalities of adjacent or bordering municipalities, I take it. And
24 let me put it to you simply in the interests of time and that is,
25 Mr. Stanic, when you conferred with representatives of adjacent
1 municipalities -- let me simplify it this way.
2 You were aware of the policies of the republic level not only by
3 your contact with representatives of other municipalities but also
4 through direct contact with the highest leadership of Republika Srpska,
5 and that occurred, among other things, during your meeting of June 30th,
6 1992, in Zvornik with Mr. Karadzic, General Mladic, and representatives
7 of other municipalities?
8 A. Yes, the general policy of the Serbian Democratic Party I was
9 familiar with.
10 Q. And at that meeting the representative from Bratunac advised the
11 leadership that according to the -- and this is at page 258 of the
12 English, page 256 of the B/C/S transcribed version - advised that:
13 Although according to the last census it was 64/36 in favour of
14 Muslims, "in Bratunac municipality we now have two Muslims."
15 And the representative of Zvornik, Mr. Gruic, who was also a
16 member of the Political Council of the Birac region, told Mr. Karadzic
17 and General Mladic:
18 "We have successfully implemented the president's decision to
19 settle Divic and Kozluk with our children."
20 And the TO -- that's at page 249 through 250 of the English,
21 page 247 through 248 of the B/C/S transcribed version.
22 And Marko Pavlovic, the TO commander in Zvornik, told
23 Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic:
24 "We were most active in evicting the Muslims."
25 And noted further:
1 "We had brought peace to Sepak, Divic, and Kozluk. Some of them
2 wanted to move out while we demanded it."
3 That was at pages 253 through 254 of the English, 251 through 252
4 of the B/C/S.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tieger, the transcript doesn't show the name
6 of this document -- the title of the document that you're reading from.
7 Can you --
8 MR. TIEGER: I'm so sorry. That's P353, it's one of the Mladic
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Mr. Stanic, contrary to the suggestion in your statement, you in
13 fact not only had contact with municipal representatives, but contact
14 with them in the presence of the republic-level leadership during which
15 municipal representatives talked about their success in reducing the
16 number of Muslims in their population and explained how active they were
17 in evicting them. And that's the truth of what you knew about the
18 policy, both from other representatives in municipalities and from
19 republic leaders themselves?
20 A. I only had two meetings with Radovan Karadzic in 1992. If that
21 is good communication, then I agree with your assertion.
22 MR. TIEGER: That's all I have, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 Mr. Stojanovic.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stanic, you have spoken at length here about
2 the work of the Executive Council of the Autonomous District of Birac.
3 Can you tell us, according to your best recollection, when the last
4 meeting of the Executive Council of the Autonomous District of Birac was
6 A. It's difficult to give you the precise time. Roughly I can say
7 that this was in mid-May 1992, after which activities ceased. And that's
8 why I couldn't answer with a yes or a no. We were not divested of our
9 posts, but we did not continue with our work.
10 Q. And after this meeting in mid-May 1992 of the Executive Board of
11 the Birac Autonomous Region, was there any other meeting held which you
12 attended or did you hear of any other meeting being held?
13 A. In that form as the Executive Council, no.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, just for my clarity, is the
15 Autonomous District the same thing as the Autonomous Region? Your first
16 question related to Autonomous District. Now you're going to Autonomous
17 Region. Are they the same thing?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it states "the
19 Autonomous District," that's what it states in the heading. So I think
20 so, yes. Thank you.
21 Q. And I would just seek one more answer from you. In your
22 statement you talked about going to Tuzla and calling upon the Muslims
23 from Vlasenica to return to Vlasenica. You also gave us the dates of
24 when that was in April 1992.
25 A. I think it was the 14th or the 15th of April, 1992.
1 Q. And now the question: From that time until the 30th, when you
2 were -- and until the 30th of May when you were calling upon Muslims to
3 return to Vlasenica, did you ever receive any document in which it was
4 suggested that the Muslim population in Vlasenica should be treated
6 A. No, we did not get any such document.
7 Q. Mr. Stanic, I thank you on behalf of General Mladic's Defence. I
8 have no further questions.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave,
10 just one more thing but we can do that once the witness leaves. We just
11 need to resolve one technical issue that has cropped up and it has to do
12 with a document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll pay attention to it soon.
14 Have the questions triggered any need for further questions? I
15 may have one but I want to first carefully -- no, I leave it to that.
16 Mr. Stanic, this concludes your evidence. I think everyone is
17 happy that they could accommodate you in returning back home in time.
18 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way and for having
19 answered the questions, questions that were put to you by the parties,
20 questions that were put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return
21 home again. You may follow the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you had a practical matter.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence, Your Honours.
1 It seems to me that exhibit which was tendered by the Prosecution which
2 got number P7087, P7087 completely corresponds to a Defence exhibit which
3 was given number D885 today. So then we would have one document
4 appearing under two different numbers.
5 MR. TIEGER: If I'm -- well, I've looked at it quickly. That was
6 a series of three documents. The document -- that may be right because I
7 didn't refer to a D number on that. One document is the order by
8 Dr. Karadzic for Mr. Djokanovic, that's June 10th. That was not in
9 evidence as far as I'm aware. And I thought that was the only document
10 in that series that we tendered, but I'd have to check. So I'm just
11 wondering if there's a -- because -- and then the June 16th document that
12 I think is the one that Mr. Stojanovic is referring to may sound similar
13 but I don't think that got a new number. Perhaps I'm wrong.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: P7087 is 65 ter 16217.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And D885 was the first of the two associated
16 exhibits under number 1D3128.
17 MR. TIEGER: And I'm pretty sure that 65 ter 16217 was indeed the
18 June 10th document and was not in evidence as I understand it. So I --
19 again, I referred to three documents, June 10th, June 16th, and
20 June 17th, and only the first of those received a new number. So if
21 that's the document that Mr. Stojanovic is referring to as a D number,
22 then that's the problem, but I wasn't aware that was the case. D885, as
23 I understand it, is the 16 June document. That may already have two
24 documents because I cited -- no? Okay. Because I think it came up under
25 a different --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following: Have a cup of tea together
2 with Mr. Stojanovic, find out what is there to be clarified for us, and
3 at the same time one of the problems is striking and then getting back,
4 that if someone later reads the transcript and has to find 20 pages later
5 that what he reads was later changed, then sometimes the disadvantage of
6 having the same document under two numbers is less than the disadvantage
7 of being misled by something which hardly visible will change 20 pages
8 later. So nevertheless, we would like to have on the record whether
9 there are any duplicates, but whether that should be accompanied by any
10 action is still to be considered.
11 We adjourn for the day. The Chamber expresses its appreciation
12 to the parties that they made it possible for the witness to return home.
13 We resume Monday, the 2nd of February, that is in courtroom I, 9.30 in
14 the morning.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of
17 February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.