Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30926

 1                           Monday, 2 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced.  Could the witness be escorted

12     in the courtroom.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Zupljanin.  Before you give

16     evidence, the Rules require that you make --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules require that you make a solemn

19     declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  May I invite you to make

20     that solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN ZUPLJANIN

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Zupljanin.

Page 30927

 1             Mr. Zupljanin, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'd find

 2     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And good morning to

 4     everybody.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zupljanin.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I would just kindly ask the usher to provide

 9     Mr. Zupljanin with his statement.  Show it to the Prosecution first,

10     please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zupljanin, for the record, kindly tell us

12     your first and last name.

13        A.   Slobodan Zupljanin.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens, 1D1710, please.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] In front of you on the screen as well as in hard

16     copy before you, Mr. Zupljanin, is a document.  Can you see a signature

17     there?

18        A.   I do.  I can.

19        Q.   Do you recognise it?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  It is my signature.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now go to the last page of the

23     document.

24        Q.   Do you see a signature on this page and do you recognise it?

25        A.   I see a signature, and it is mine.

Page 30928

 1        Q.   You have had occasion to go through the statement.  Is it the

 2     statement you provided to the members of Mr. Mladic's Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes.  This reflects the contents of the statement I gave on the

 4     aforementioned date to the members of the investigations team.

 5        Q.   Does it accurately reflect what you told the members of the

 6     Defence team?

 7        A.   The contents do reflect what I said to the members of the Defence

 8     team.

 9        Q.   Is the statement accurate and truthful?

10        A.   Everything I touched upon in my statement is accurate and

11     truthful.

12        Q.   If I were to put the same questions here today, would you provide

13     the same answers?

14        A.   In principle, the contents would be the same.  Perhaps the word

15     order or sentence structure would not be identical, but the contents

16     would.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this statement of Mr. Zupljanin into

18     evidence, Your Honour.

19             MS. BIBLES:  No objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01710 receives Exhibit Number D887,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D887 is admitted.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, if you have any further questions or

25     if you want to read a summary of the testimony.

Page 30929

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I would have one or two questions, and I would first

 2     read a summary.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5             Slobodan Zupljanin testifies about the military and political

 6     situation in the municipality of Kotor Varos.

 7             In autumn 1991, he was mobilised in the 122nd Light Infantry

 8     Brigade which was deployed in Croatia.

 9             On 18th of March, 1992, the brigade was transferred back to

10     Knezevo, B and H.  He was the commander of the 5th Company of the brigade

11     deployed in Maslovare village, Kotor Varos municipality.  At that time,

12     the brigade was composed of the active Muslim and Croat officers.  The

13     task of the brigade was to prevent interethnic conflicts, disarm

14     paramilitaries, and keep road communications open.

15             Slobodan Zupljanin states that some incidents broke out in

16     April 1992.

17             Kotor Varos was surrounded by Muslim and Croat villages.  From

18     the military point of view, Kotor Varos was encircled.

19             Slobodan Zupljanin witnessed that Muslim and Croats moved around

20     the town and villages carrying automatic weapons freely.  He knows that

21     Muslims and Croat had fought in Croatia and had gained military

22     experience.

23             He negotiated the surrender of weapons.  Some of the villages

24     surrendered weapons, such as the Muslim villages of Garici and Siprage,

25     and the Croat village of Zabrdje and those villages remained untouched

Page 30930

 1     throughout the war.

 2             Mr. Zupljanin personally took part in negotiations with Muslims

 3     and Croats to ease tensions and avoid conflicts.  During one of these

 4     attempts he was wounded in an ambush set by Muslim-Croat formations.

 5     There were no combat activities at that time.  His driver was also

 6     wounded and another negotiator was killed.

 7             Mr. Zupljanin was present when the Muslim-Croat brigade from the

 8     area of Kotor Varos numbering 300 fighters surrendered to the

 9     22nd Infantry Brigade.  The enemy soldiers were then transferred to the

10     Republic of Croatia in 26 buses.  Mr. Zupljanin's unit was tasked with

11     securing the reception of the Muslim-Croat units, disarming them, and

12     seeing them off from Kotor Varos.  Other units were tasked with escorting

13     them.  Everything was done without incident.

14             Mr. Zupljanin also took active part in the area of Vlasic by

15     receiving more than 5.000 civilians and 1500 soldiers of Croat ethnicity

16     who had left Travnik and Bugojno, fleeing from Muslim forces.  His unit

17     was in charge of receiving these Croat civilians and soldiers.

18     Mr. Zupljanin's unit secured food, medical care, and accommodation for

19     them.

20             And that was the statement summary of Mr. Zupljanin.

21             I will have just a couple of questions.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zupljanin, we could see in your statement

23     that you were wounded and you were treated in hospital and at home.  You

24     were wounded on the 25th of June, 1992.  How long did your convalescence

25     last?

Page 30931

 1        A.   I was wounded early in the morning on the 25th of June, 1992.  I

 2     was operated at the military medical centre in Banja Luka.  At the time,

 3     there were many wounded and injured.  For a while, I even had my bed

 4     placed in one of the hospital corridors rather than in a room because

 5     they were overcrowded.  As far as I remember, I spent about a fortnight

 6     in the hospital.  The overall treatment and absence from the unit lasted

 7     around three months.

 8        Q.   Following your wounding and during the treatment, did you,

 9     nevertheless, have to go in the field; and why, if you recall?

10        A.   In principle, while I was being treated due to my injuries, I was

11     regularly visited by a physician from the battalion medical corps because

12     my wounded needed to be dressed for a long time.  In July, I think, I was

13     still immobile, lying down, because I had received wounds to both my

14     legs, upper leg and lower leg on the right side and the left upper leg

15     were wounded.  As I said, I was regularly visited by brigade

16     representatives.  Often the commander himself came to visit inquiring

17     into my health situation.

18             The first time I left home, if I remember well, was in

19     mid-August 1992.  Two soldiers came, one of them a battalion driver and

20     another soldier, and told me that on that morning, the 14th of August,

21     1992, there was a massacre committed over Serb soldiers in the sector of

22     Vigoste.  Muslim fighters from Vecici village on the stretch of road

23     between Obodnik and Vasiljevica Brdo, in the area of Orahe [phoen]

24     village and Vilaste stream, intercepted our van taking people for regular

25     rotation as well as food that was regularly being brought to the

Page 30932

 1     positions.  Given the fact that it was one of the few vehicles that

 2     travelled between Maslovare and Kotor Varos, it often carried civilians

 3     as well.  That morning, I was told that there were 27 people in the van

 4     of whom 13 were killed and 14 were wounded.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   I was told that there was much panic among the Serb soldiers and

 7     local population.  They asked whether, with their assistance, I could go

 8     to the bridge at the Vigosta river, some 3 to 4 kilometres away from the

 9     incident, so as to give support to the panicking soldiers and those who

10     were wounded, trying to ease the situation in a way.  I didn't have to

11     think twice.  My family members helped me get dressed, and then with the

12     assistance of the two soldiers and with some aids, I managed to get into

13     the vehicle and reach the location.

14             By that time, the -- some soldiers and locals had gathered there,

15     as well as some people I didn't know.  The situation was rather heated.

16     One of the people present there in a military uniform and had an

17     M-48 rifle on him but I couldn't recognise him as a member of my unit, as

18     I could confirm later, threatened me personally.  He pointed his rifle at

19     my chest, thinking that I was responsible for what had happened to our

20     soldiers.  He said that we were being too mild with the enemy.  However,

21     the situation relaxed somewhat.  There were no further incidents.  The

22     soldier with the rifle withdrew.  Some other people came to the location

23     in the meantime and we tried to explain to them that whenever there's an

24     enemy in front of you in a combat area, any kind of scenario is possible.

25     I think that morning we managed to defuse the situation so to speak.

Page 30933

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, focused questions usually do not take

 2     answers of five minutes which go in every direction.  Could you please

 3     try, if you want to examine the witness, to keep a certain focus on what

 4     we should hear.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Zupljanin, did you address the civilians as well and what

 7     kind of mood was theirs?

 8        A.   Yes, I addressed them too.  There were some cries for revenge and

 9     suggestions of going against the Muslim population immediately so as to

10     avenge our losses.  However, that day, we managed to prevent any such

11     thing from happening.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zupljanin.  That would be all we had for you.

13        A.   Thank you as well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

16             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zupljanin, you'll now be cross-examined by

18     Ms. Bibles.  You find Ms. Bibles to your right.  Ms. Bibles is counsel

19     for the Prosecution.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

23        Q.   Good morning.

24        A.   Good morning.

25             MS. BIBLES:  If the Prosecution could please have 65 ter 31901.

Page 30934

 1     We can start off with page 1 on both.

 2        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 7 of your statement, you describe the

 3     transition of your unit from the JNA to what would become a VRS unit;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is what I discussed there.

 6        Q.   Now, the article that has come up on the screen in front of you

 7     was written in 1994, and it's a retrospective about the 2nd Battalion.

 8     Do you recognise this article?

 9        A.   I don't recall having seen this article before.

10        Q.   Now, in the first paragraph, this describes a formation of the

11     battalion on 7 May 1992 and it describes:  "Serbian young men rushing to

12     report."  Do you see that?

13        A.   I see it, but it wasn't that the people were rushing.  They were

14     simply responding to a draft call.

15        Q.   Now the second paragraph starts with a line:

16             "The minarets of Vecici mosques trembled at the mention of the

17     Maslovare Chetniks gathering in Borje."

18             Now, your battalion was a Serbian military unit from the very

19     beginning in May of 1992; correct?

20        A.   In principle, it was a Serb army unit.  Although, at the time,

21     there was Captain First Class Nijaz Vrabac who was a member of the unit,

22     he commanded a platoon of mortars, as well as Alojzije Gasparevic, who

23     was the commander of the Mixed Antitank Artillery Unit.  It was a smaller

24     unit that had the Zis cannons at its disposal.  He had commanded a unit

25     in Slavonia and then returned to the battalion.  The assets of his unit

Page 30935

 1     were sent to Vlasic.  Of course, at some point --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- I can't recall when, they did leave the battalion, though.

 4        Q.   And you agree that the battalion, your battalion, the

 5     2nd Battalion, was a military unit to support the Serbian -- Serbian

 6     republic?

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't fully agree.  I do agree in part though.  It was

 8     a battalion that had been a part of the JNA and after that, it became

 9     part of the Serbian Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and then

10     part of the VRS.  The tasks of the battalion were crystal clear.  We were

11     there to support the overall population in the area of Kotor Varos

12     municipality.

13        Q.   Now, on the third page in English and I believe it's the second

14     page in the original, we'll be looking at a series of villages that are

15     listed at the bottom of -- in the English version, it's the first

16     paragraph.

17             Sir, we're looking for a list of places in which the

18     2nd Battalion was involved and includes Hrvacani, Vrbanjci, and Vecici.

19     Do you see that list of villages?

20        A.   It concerns the locations you mentioned.  In other words, parts

21     of the battalion units were somewhere in the general sector of those

22     villages.

23        Q.   Do you agree that your battalion, the 2nd Battalion, engaged in

24     all of the locations listed in that paragraph?

25        A.   The 2nd Battalion was engaged in disarming paramilitary

Page 30936

 1     formations as well as in protecting the population and preventing the

 2     incursions of any sabotage and --

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4        A.   -- scouting units from the Lasva valley, as well as to protect

 5     their road.

 6        Q.   Sir, that was not the question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 8             MS. BIBLES:

 9        Q.   Could you look at the list of villages at the bottom of that

10     paragraph and tell me whether you or your battalion or portions of your

11     battalion were engaged in all of those locations between 1992 and 1994.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You find in the column in the middle of this

13     page, in the first paragraph.

14             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw the list.  The unit or

16     parts of my battalion were not in the area of Sokolina and Visevica.  As

17     for the other village, the answer is yes.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 31901.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31901 receives Exhibit Number P7089,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MS. BIBLES:

24        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to discuss the matters that were left out of

25     your witness statement and that is the 1992 events in Vecici and

Page 30937

 1     Grabovica.

 2             In paragraph 15 of your witness statement, signed on the

 3     4th of July, 2014, you indicate that your battalion was relocated to the

 4     area of Vlasic in early November 1992.  Would you agree that this is the

 5     same time-frame in which the killings in Grabovica occurred in

 6     November of 1992?

 7        A.   The battalion was relocated to the area of Vlasic following the

 8     events in Grabovica in 1992.  The first unit --

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You've answered my question.

10        A.   [In English] Okay.

11        Q.   The issue of the resistance of Vecici in Kotor Varos was an

12     important military issue to the VRS from July to November 1992; right?

13        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, it was an important military issue as well

14     as an important civilian issue.

15        Q.   And you would agree that the people who surrendered at Grabovica

16     in November 1992 were fleeing from Vecici; correct?

17        A.   I learnt that those people had left Vecici.

18        Q.   Would -- we're now going to play a small portion of a video,

19     P850.  The portion we'll play involves VRS actions in Kotor Varos in

20     July of 1992.  I would like for you to watch and then after the video,

21     I'll have some questions.

22             MS. BIBLES:  For the booths, we'll start the video at page 2 in

23     both language transcripts about halfway into Reporter Ajder's comments.

24     I believe it is starting with:  "Yesterday and today the air force ..."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the transcripts already been revised or should

Page 30938

 1     we play it twice?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  I believe we can just play it once, Your Honour.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's in evidence, that's true.  Therefore, please

 5     proceed.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, for the record, we're beginning at 3:59

 7     in the video as it's marked.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... and special police units ...

10     the air force of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina also

11     participated and targeted enemy targets.  The number of fatalities among

12     the Muslim-Croat paramilitary has exceeded 300, with a significantly

13     greater number of wounded.  In yesterday's and today's combat alone

14     Muslim and Croat extremists had over 100 wounded and killed and about

15     200 wounded.  Their own civilians, Muslim women, children, and the

16     elderly, are held hostage by the extremists who tortured and killed them.

17     Yesterday, between 1600 and 1700 hours, in the vicinity of Rujevica

18     village, on the road between Maslovare and Kotor Varos, enemy villains

19     tortured and bestially killed Stevan Markovic and Obrad Bubic.  They also

20     killed Milan Stevilovic and captured Nova Petrusic.  A commemoration

21     ceremony was held today in honour of Milan Stevilovic at the Banja Luka

22     Yugoslav People's Army Hall."

23             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, for the record, we've stopped at

24     the video at 4 minutes, 52 seconds.

25        Q.   Sir, in this video, we saw combat aircraft bombing a village.  Do

Page 30939

 1     you agree that this village was Vecici?

 2        A.   I believe so.  I believe it is the village of Vecici that is

 3     depicted on the footage.  But I have to say that at that time I was in

 4     hospital.

 5        Q.   Well, sir, you would agree that these were VRS aircraft; correct?

 6        A.   I learned later from my visitors to the hospital those were

 7     aircraft of the Serbian republic -- or the Army of Republika Srpska or

 8     the JNA.  I don't know whose aircraft it was.

 9        Q.   Do you know where these aircraft would have -- or planes would

10     have been based?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Do you know whether, in July of 1992, the VRS air force was

13     commanded by General Ninkovic?

14        A.   I think that I can confirm that it was indeed General Ninkovic.

15     His name came up.

16        Q.   And you would agree that in order to have air-strikes like we

17     observed in the video, someone on the ground would have been giving

18     details up the chain of command to reach the aircraft; correct?

19        A.   I didn't quite understand your question.  Could you please repeat

20     it?

21        Q.   I'll see if I can make this more clear.  The air force of the VRS

22     would have bombed this particular location with the assistance of the

23     field units in Kotor Varos; correct?

24        A.   I can't confirm that.  I was not in the unit at the time.

25        Q.   So moving on to after you returned to your unit, you and your

Page 30940

 1     battalion took part in different operations involving Vecici; correct?

 2        A.   The battalion, yes.  I was not involved in Vecici at all because

 3     I was not in the unit on the 29th of June when there was an operation in

 4     Vecici.  Neither was I there in the month of July when paramilitary

 5     formations in Vecici were being disarmed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, apparently there may be some

 7     misunderstanding but you're referring to a time when the witness had

 8     returned to the unit, whereas the witness says:  What you described was

 9     something that happened before I returned to my unit.  Could you please

10     seek to clarify that with the witness.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Sir, the time-period that I'm describing would be after you

13     returned to service in August 1992 until November of 1992.  Were you or

14     any portions of your battalion involved in operations involving Vecici

15     during that time-period?

16        A.   During that period, there was no combat until the moment people

17     left Vecici.  At that time, the area was mopped up.  In late October,

18     there were negotiations at the requests of the soldiers and civilians of

19     Vecici who wanted to negotiate the conditions of surrender.

20             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P440 on our screen.

21        Q.   You'll see that this is an order for combat operations signed by

22     Colonel Novakovic.  And, sir, Colonel Dusan Novakovic was the commander

23     of the 1st Light Kotor Varos Brigade; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And in late October, early November 1992, you were the commander

Page 30941

 1     for the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Brigade; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.  However, the 2nd Battalion was not on the strength of

 3     the 1st Light Croatia Brigade.  I did not receive my orders from

 4     Commander Novakovic.

 5        Q.   I'm trying to clarify that.  So you commanded the 2nd Battalion,

 6     Colonel Novakovic commanded the 1st Light Kotor Varos Brigade; correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   And both of these units were within the Operational Group Vlasic

 9     headed by Janko Trivic; right?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   So you reported directly to Janko Trivic as did

12     Colonel Novakovic; correct?

13        A.   Yes.  However, I was subordinated to Colonel Trivic as the

14     battalion commander, a battalion which was part of the 28th Brigade

15     commanded by Novakovic.  And Novakovic was in charge of a brigade that

16     was part of the OG whose commander was Trivic.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Bibles, could you please clarify the name,

18     Novakovac or Novakovic, which is the right one?

19             MS. BIBLES:  It appears to be correct in the transcript

20     Novakovic.

21        Q.   Is that the name, the proper name of the individual who headed

22     the 1st Light --

23        A.   Dusan Novakovic.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it correct.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 30942

 1        Q.   If we go to the last page of this order which would be page 3 in

 2     the English and page 2 in the B/C/S, we see a list of military units.

 3     Now, these units that we see to the left and below the signature would

 4     have fallen under the command of Colonel Novakovic as parts of the

 5     1st Light Kotor Varos Brigade; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And we see the Grabovica command [sic] about halfway down this

 8     list.  Now they were based there Grabovica; right?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say "Grabovica command" or "company"?

10             MS. BIBLES:  Company, I'm sorry.  Yes.  That should be in the

11     transcript, at line 24 on temporary transcript 16, "Grabovica Company."

12     Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, sir, was this unit based in Grabovica?

14        A.   According to what I know, the Grabovica Company was deployed in

15     Grabovica.

16        Q.   And was the commander of the Grabovica Company at that time a man

17     named Mile - and I'll spell the last name - K-l-j-a-j-i-c?

18        A.   I'm sure that it wasn't Mile Kljujic.  But there was an officer

19     in the 1st Light Infantry Brigade whose name was Mile Kljajic.  It may

20     have been him, but I don't know that for a fact because company

21     commanders followed brigade command orders and changed often.

22        Q.   Do you know how many men were in the Grabovica Company?

23        A.   I really can't tell you.  I don't know whether they were on full

24     strength at the time.  I suppose that the company had approximately

25     100 men.

Page 30943

 1        Q.   And I'm sorry, 100 men.  Is that -- was that your answer, that

 2     you supposed that they had 100 men?

 3        A.   I said that I assumed that there were 100 given the formation of

 4     the Light Infantry Company.  And I suppose that at that time the -- they

 5     had what they were supposed to have according to their formation, about

 6     100 men.

 7        Q.   Now going back on this document to page 1 in the English and

 8     B/C/S, we'll be looking at point 3.  We see:

 9             "Some of the forces of the 2-22 lpbr shall block the enemy forces

10     on the village of Dabovci."

11             Is this referring to the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Brigade?

12        A.   Judging by the order it was the 2nd Battalion of the

13     22nd Brigade.  However, I repeat, I never received orders from any of the

14     commanders who were not my immediate superiors.  I never received any

15     such orders, nor did I ever carry out any such orders.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Bibles, I think you misspoke.  It's not

17     Dabovici but Dabovci.

18             MS. BIBLES:  You're quite correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, sir, in terms of an operation, if I'm understanding your

20     answer correctly, you would have received orders from Janko Trivic that

21     you would then issue to your battalion if -- in operating as part of this

22     operation, or in conducting your unit's portion of this operation;

23     correct?

24        A.   No, not correct.  I did not receive any orders for this operation

25     from Commander Trivic.  There was no action at all.  We were in our

Page 30944

 1     deployment sector near Vasiljevici.  There was a company there over a

 2     long period of time.

 3        Q.   Are you saying, then, that the order on our screen is mistaken

 4     with respect to the 2nd Battalion?

 5        A.   I don't know whether there's a mistake here or not.  I suppose

 6     that the commander of the 1st Kotor Varos Brigade issued an order to his

 7     own brigade and according to the methodology he was also duty-bound to

 8     provide information to the neighbouring units.  In this particular case,

 9     I was one of his neighbours.  Maybe this was just to copy us and to

10     provide us with the information for reference.

11        Q.   I want to shift gears and talk about your involvement in the

12     meetings of the Kotor Varos War Presidency relating to Vecici.

13             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P2884 on our screens, please.

14     We'll be looking for page 4 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.  This is

15     an extract from the minutes of an extraordinary session of the

16     Kotor Varos War Presidency held on 1 November 1992.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we move on, what we looked at earlier, that

18     document which was shown to you and which described some operations,

19     was -- from the geography you could see there, was that in the Vecici

20     area?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.

22     What do you mean?  Which part are you referring to when you say whether

23     it was in the Vecici area?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we perhaps go back to the document --

25             MS. BIBLES:  If we could -- P440.  And I believe page 1.

Page 30945

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we have it now before us.  It starts in

 2     paragraph 1 with a reference to the citizens of the village of Vecici,

 3     et cetera.  Then specifically I think your attention was drawn to

 4     paragraph 3:

 5             "Some of the forces of the 2-22 Light Infantry Brigade shall

 6     block the enemy forces on the villages of Dabovci ..."

 7             I'm talking about those areas.  Is that the Vecici area or is it

 8     not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I understand, Your Honour.  The

10     axis involving Dabovci and Vasiljevici villages may be put in direct

11     connection with the village of Vecici.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you were asked about August 1992 to

13     November 1992, and you said in answer -- in answering a question by

14     Ms. Bibles:

15             "During that period, there was no combat until the moment people

16     left Vecici."

17             Do I have to understand that this all happened when the people

18     left Vecici or ... I'm trying to understand where this is -- what

19     happened here, whether this preceded the people leaving Vecici or whether

20     it was simultaneous or whether it happened after.  Could you tell us?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I wanted to say and this

22     is the truth, that this order -- I mean, the 2nd Battalion did not carry

23     out this order, and I don't think that the 2nd -- or the 1st Light

24     Kotor Varos Brigade ever carried out all the tasks that are mentioned in

25     here.  And I repeat, the date of the order precedes the departure of

Page 30946

 1     soldiers and civilians from Vecici village.  And I repeat, the 2nd

 2     Infantry Company of the 2nd Battalion had been deployed in the

 3     Vasiljevici sector, which is a Serbian village bordering on the village

 4     of Vecici.  It was there from before, and it did not carry out any

 5     special combat activities pursuant to this order at all.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But you said there was no combat, not specifically

 7     you're referring to any specific unit; whereas if I read this document,

 8     it is seems that at least some combat orders were given.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But this document didn't mean

10     that a combat order was issued to the battalion.  It could not have been.

11     This order was issued by the commander of a different unit.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you said there was no combat in Vecici.

13     And I said -- again, you didn't say this unit did not -- was not involved

14     in combat or that unit was not involved in combat.  You just said there

15     was no combat.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around those days, there was no

17     combat in Vecici at all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm still puzzled by the fact that you say what

19     we see in paragraph 3 is the Vecici area.  It very much looks to -- that

20     it's combat orders to whatever unit, and I do not then fully understand

21     why you say that there was no combat in the Vecici area where this

22     document apparently orders -- give orders for attack.

23             I'm just trying to understand.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not the only case or a

25     rare case that some orders for combat were not carried out.  The period

Page 30947

 1     from the moment an order is issued to the eventual operation may give

 2     rise to various situations.  That's exactly what happened here because

 3     there were intense negotiations going on about the departure of the

 4     population from Vecici village.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So your explanation is it may have been ordered but

 6     it did not happen.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a possible option.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you say there's no combat, and if you

 9     say, I think it didn't happen, then it looks as if you're not certain

10     whether these combat orders were followed, yes or no.  And you again

11     emphasised this by saying, This is what possibly was the case.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure, I'm sure, that the

13     2nd Battalion did not carry out any combat operations pursuant to this

14     order.  When I said that it was possible, I meant the orders that were

15     issued to the units of the 1st Light Kotor Varos Infantry Brigade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   Sir, isn't it true that you had contact with Colonel Novakovic

19     every day from November 1st through at least November 5th as this

20     operation was being carried out?

21        A.   We were in contact around those days and even earlier as

22     commanding officers of the neighbouring units.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Now, if we could go now to P2884, page 4 in the

24     English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   And, sir, the document that will come up is an extract from the

Page 30948

 1     meetings of an extraordinary session of the War Presidency, Kotor Varos,

 2     held on 1 November 1992.  Now, at the top of the document, you're noted

 3     as being present at this meeting.  We also see Captain Balaban was at

 4     this meeting on 1 November.  He was a security and intelligence officer

 5     in the 1st Krajina Corps; correct?

 6        A.   I was at that meeting, as well as some other meetings of the

 7     War Presidency when the brigade commander informed me, told me, that I

 8     should go.  Captain Balaban also attended meetings that I attended.  I

 9     know that he was a member of the security organs of the 1st Krajina

10     Corps.

11        Q.   And, as such, Captain Balaban would have reported back to the

12     1st Krajina Corps command about the events in Kotor Varos; right?

13        A.   Probably.  Although I was not aware of what Captain Balaban's

14     authorities and competences were.

15        Q.   In this document we see that Djekanovic, the War Presidency

16     president, discusses current issues --

17        A.   Djekanovic.

18        Q.   Djekanovic discusses the current issues involving Vecici

19     including those that have arisen from the corps command's prohibition

20     against allowing civilians out of Vecici before all had laid down their

21     arms.

22             We see in this document that you state that you wanted an order

23     issued to you via the chain of command with instructions on what to do.

24     Now there had been a recent change in your command structure in the weeks

25     prior to this meeting; correct?

Page 30949

 1             Perhaps I could be --

 2        A.   Not absolutely correct.  There wasn't a change in the command

 3     structure -- structure a few weeks before.  It was only one week before

 4     that that happened.  A change in the command structure happened on the

 5     23rd or the 24th of October.  From the 24th of October to the

 6     1st November, it is only six or seven days.

 7        Q.   All right.  And that would be that Janko Trivic, who we've

 8     discussed before, assumed command of Colonel Peulic; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, Janko Trivic wore two hats.  He took over the command of the

10     22nd Infantry Brigade from Peulic.  At the same time he was the commander

11     of Vlasic OG.

12        Q.   Was it your understanding that the previous brigade commander,

13     Peulic, had been replaced in part because of his failure to resolve

14     Vecici?

15        A.   I'm not entirely sure that that was the main reason.  I think

16     that a lot of things happened that led to Trivic and Peulic changing

17     places.

18        Q.   And you would agree that the failure to resolve Vecici was one of

19     those factors?

20        A.   As far as I knew, I wasn't aware that the corps commander was

21     dissatisfied by Peulic's command but I allow for that possibility to have

22     been possible -- to have been present as well.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I note we've just slightly passed the

24     time for the morning break.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take a break.

Page 30950

 1             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in

 2     20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             If we could now turn to page 3 in the English.  If we could turn

11     to page 3 in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   And, sir, we'll see November -- 2 November 1992, continuation of

13     an extraordinary War Presidency session.  And we see Colonel Bogojevic

14     referenced here.  Now he was the assistant commander of the 1st Krajina

15     Corps for security and intelligence; right?

16        A.   I think Colonel Bogojevic was assistant commander of the

17     1st Krajina Corps for security.  I'm not sure, though, whether he was in

18     charge of intelligence as well.

19        Q.   And here, we see him stating:

20             "He had received explicit orders from General Mladic that no one

21     was allowed -- was to be allowed to leave Vecici until the unconditional

22     surrender of weapons was completed."

23             In the second-to-the last paragraph, we see Major Trivic telling

24     the War Presidency:

25             "President, that he should try to convince Karadzic that the only

Page 30951

 1     right way to solve Vecici was to push for unconditional surrender."

 2             Now, you supported that position; right?

 3        A.   I was in favour of the option agreed upon at one of the previous

 4     sessions of the War Presidency.  It was to the effect that they should be

 5     offered to surrender their weapons, to have those captured delivered, as

 6     well as the corpses delivered to our side, and then everyone from Vecici

 7     was to be allowed to leave freely wherever they wanted to, in case they

 8     wanted to.

 9        Q.   So is that -- is your answer, yes, that you wanted to push for an

10     unconditional surrender of Vecici?

11        A.   It was the decision of the military command and I was duty-bound

12     to honour the decisions of my superior command.  That is why in this

13     situation I had previously asked for the following.  Given the fact that

14     there were different interpretations of how that situation was supposed

15     to be dealt with, I asked that I receive direct instructions from my

16     superior commander.

17        Q.   And you supported what your military commanders told you to do;

18     correct?

19        A.   No.  It wasn't up to me to support.  It was up to me to implement

20     the orders of my superior command.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, were you there when the Muslim representatives

22     from Vecici were brought in as described was going to happen in this

23     document?

24        A.   I think I was.  I don't recall it in detail because it was a long

25     time ago, but I think so.

Page 30952

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  We'll now turn to P3743, which is an extract of the

 3     meeting of the War Presidency of Kotor Varos held on 3 November 1992.

 4     And I see the B/C/S document has come up.

 5        Q.   I'll confirm that you were at this War Presidency session as

 6     well; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I was present.

 8        Q.   Under item 2 in the second paragraph, it states that you briefed

 9     the War Presidency of a report that the soldiers from Vecici had

10     abandoned the village as had the civilian population.

11             My question is:  Did you provide this briefing as opposed to the

12     others who were present because you were most heavily involved in the

13     operations against Vecici?

14        A.   Not because of that.  As you can see, this is an extract from the

15     minutes and it does not reflect the entire course of the War Presidency's

16     session.  It only provides highlights.  It is correct that I did acquaint

17     the War Presidency with the situation.  According to the information

18     arriving from the 2nd Company and other units, the battalion command was

19     informed that the village was abandoned.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Now we'll turn to P852.  This is an excerpt from the

21     minutes of the 116th Kotor Varos War Presidency meeting on the

22     4th of November, 1992.

23        Q.   And you would agree that you were present for this session as

24     well; right?

25        A.   Yes, I was.

Page 30953

 1        Q.   And if we look at item 2, it states that you reported to the

 2     War Presidency regarding several things, including the surrender of

 3     150 soldiers and civilians from Vecici.  Was this something the

 4     War Presidency was unaware of at the time of this meeting?

 5        A.   I don't think it was something that the War Presidency was

 6     unfamiliar with.  I did not submit a report to the War Presidency.  I was

 7     not under any obligation to do so.  As the unit commander I was supposed

 8     to report to my superior command.  I simply informed the War Presidency

 9     about the knowledge I gathered in between the two sessions of the

10     War Presidency.

11        Q.   Now, you've answered that as unit commander you were supposed to

12     report to your superior command.  You -- did you, in fact, report to your

13     superior Janko Trivic that the 150 men had been captured?

14        A.   Yes.  When I received that information, I personally informed

15     Trivic, the brigade commander, about the information I had received from

16     the commander of the 1st Light infantry Kotor Varos Brigade, Colonel

17     Novakovic.

18        Q.   Did you also report to your superior that there were women in

19     this group of individuals who surrendered?

20        A.   At the meeting of the battalion command, I forwarded the

21     information I had received from Colonel Novakovic.

22        Q.   Did that include information that there were women in the group

23     who had surrendered?

24        A.   Yes, it also included that piece of information.

25        Q.   And there were children in the group that had surrendered;

Page 30954

 1     correct?

 2        A.   I can't say anything with any certainty that there were children

 3     as well, but there were people who were younger in terms of age.  That is

 4     definitely so.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, younger is a very relative concept.  What was

 6     your information about age?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information I received from

 8     Colonel Novakovic stated that there were 150 persons involved, including

 9     fighters, as well as civilians, such as women and children.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it's now the second time -- first, when

11     Ms. Bibles asked you whether you reported that there were women in this

12     group, you said:  I reported what I knew.  That's not an answer to the

13     question.  It was only after the second question that you said:  Indeed,

14     I reported that there were women in the group.  So that should have been

15     your answer to the first question already.

16             Now here we have the same.  You say:  Younger in age.  I do

17     understand that you had received information that there were children in

18     the group.  Why not answer that question directly and only in the second

19     round?

20             Could you please keep that in mind.

21             Ms. Bibles.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Did you also report that the men had given up their weapons?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the witness said something which was not

Page 30955

 1     translated.

 2             Could you repeat what you said, Witness?  Or was it the beginning

 3     of your answer?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked why I didn't say the

 5     first time around that there were women and children.  What I said was

 6     that I informed my command about --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  We heard exactly what you said, and I invited

 8     you to directly answer questions and to keep that in mind.  Listen

 9     carefully to the next question of Ms. Bibles and answer that question.

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   Did you also report that the men in this group --

12        A.   Very well.

13        Q.   Did you also report that the men in this group had given up their

14     weapons?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, going back to the document in front of us, if we look at the

17     next paragraph, we see that Pejic states that the organisation of a

18     departure convoy should take place as soon as possible, and then:

19             "Pejic, Zupljanin, Balaban, and Novakovic shall decide on the

20     fate of the soldiers who were taken prisoner."

21             Now to be very clear, this refers to the 150 men being held now

22     at Grabovica; right?

23        A.   One would conclude so from the way this sentence was constructed

24     although that could not have been the case in any respect.  I could not

25     have been someone who could decide on anything in that regard for at

Page 30956

 1     least two reasons.  One reason was that it did not take place in the

 2     deployment area of the 2nd Battalion.  And the second reason was that I

 3     could decide on such things only on -- if on strict orders from my

 4     superior command.  Not from somebody else --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness mentioned a

 6     specific name at the very end of his answer which we did not catch.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   At the end of your answer, you gave a name that we did not catch

 9     in the record.  Could you repeat that name.

10        A.   Pejic.

11        Q.   Now, you would agree that the men, the people being held at

12     Grabovica, were the responsibility of the VRS; right?

13        A.   The VRS was responsible for them, among others, because they were

14     in the deployment area of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade of Kotor Varos,

15     which was part of the VRS.

16        Q.   Now Captain Balaban, the 1st Krajina Corps security officer,

17     appears to have remained on scene starting with the negotiations that we

18     first discussed in your cross-examination through the capture of these

19     men from Vecici and was still present with you at this meeting which

20     occurred on the 4th of November, 1992, discussing the captured men.

21             Did he stay near you during these days?

22        A.   Not only in the course of those few days but even before that he

23     used to come to the deployment area frequently.  Thus, I think he could

24     have been present.

25        Q.   I want to go back to something that you volunteered up at line 10

Page 30957

 1     through 12 on temporary page 30.  You --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so --

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you put to the witness that according to this

 5     document that Mr. Balaban was present, isn't it?  Where do I see that in

 6     the document?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  In the reference to -- and I apologise.

 8        Q.   Sir, was Captain Balaban present on that date?  This document

 9     refers to the fact that Pejic, Zupljanin, Balaban, and Novakovic shall

10     decide on the fate of the prisoners.  Does that mean that Balaban was

11     present?

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I expected to answer?

14             MS. BIBLES:

15        Q.   Yes.

16        A.   In and of itself it doesn't need necessarily be so, but I know

17     that Balaban did attend some Presidency sessions and participated in the

18     discussions on that topic in the course of those days.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness needs to move

20     back and away from the microphone.  The plosives are too much and we

21     cannot make out the sounds.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Sir, if could you sit back a slight distance more from the

24     microphone that would enable the people translating to understand you a

25     little bit better.  We might make some adjustments here.

Page 30958

 1             Now, we didn't catch the end of your answer.  You were talking

 2     about:  "... but I know that Balaban did attend some Presidency sessions

 3     and participated in the" -- and then we were not able to understand your

 4     answer.  Could you finish your answer, please.

 5        A.   I think in the course of those few days, he attended most of the

 6     meetings.

 7        Q.   Do you know where he was working from during those few days when

 8     he wasn't at the meetings?

 9        A.   I don't know that.

10        Q.   Now, in part of your answer, on page 30, I believe, lines 10

11     through 12, you indicated that the decision which is referenced in this

12     document, that you would not be able to make that decision, that it would

13     be based -- your decision would have to be based on something from

14     superior command.  Does that accurately state who would have made the

15     decision about the fate of these soldiers?  It would have been from

16     superior command?

17        A.   It is beyond dispute that I could not make any decision in that

18     regard.  When I answered your question, I said that I could only receive

19     an order from my superior command and on such orders I would be

20     duty-bound to act.

21             As far as responsibility goes, Colonel Novakovic, according to my

22     knowledge and according to his statement, he said he was up there.

23     That's what he told me.  In that regard, he could have been the person

24     responsible for them.

25        Q.   We'll move now to --

Page 30959

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, could we in questions and answers - I'm

 2     also addressing you, Witness - make a clear distinction between how

 3     things should have been and how they were.  The fact that you can't do

 4     anything without instructions doesn't mean that you never do something

 5     without instructions and orders.  Could we clearly make a distinction

 6     between the two.

 7             And, apart from that, could you tell us when you refer to the

 8     statement of Novakovic, which statement were you referring to?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to his statement

10     about those events surrounding the surrender of the 150 people.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Statement given to whom?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard him say that.  I heard it

13     from Colonel Novakovic.  He presented it as information.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you say "his statement," you are referring

15     to what he told you?  Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And not to any statement taken for purposes of

18     proceedings or any testimony given during proceedings?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have a question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you said that the fate of those soldiers

24     could have been decided only from -- by orders from above.  Is it your

25     position that whatever happened to anybody who was captured happened on

Page 30960

 1     orders from above?  Is that -- was that a rule within the army?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One couldn't say that it

 3     necessarily had to be that way.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Therefore, it could happen that people lower down

 5     could decide the fate of captured soldiers without having received orders

 6     from above.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not what I meant.  What I

 8     meant was that, in theory, there were such situations when an order from

 9     a superior command needed not be implemented if it ran counter to the

10     laws and international conventions.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you tell me one such incident where such order

12     was not carried out because it ran counter to the laws of international

13     conventions?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any such experience.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             Yes, Madam Bibles.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Now if we could move to 65 ter 31887.

18        Q.   As it comes up on the screen, you will see that it is an extract

19     from the minutes of the War Presidency of Kotor Varos of 5 November 1992.

20     Would you agree that this would have been the day after the men at

21     Grabovica had been killed?

22        A.   A day before or a day after.

23        Q.   Do you believe -- well, based on the information that you had at

24     the time, isn't it true that the men were killed on the 4th of November,

25     1992?

Page 30961

 1        A.   This could have been either on the 3rd or on the 4th; I'm not

 2     entirely sure.  It was a long time ago.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, Madam Registrar informs me that

 4     65 ter 31887 may be a mistake.  Apparently not being the document you're

 5     seeking to have on the screen.

 6             Perhaps you move on and try to find out.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 31887 on our screens, please.  And

 8     take a look at what the document -- it's coming up on our e-court.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs me that she has no results

11     on searching for 31887.  Yes, but that has changed over the last few

12     seconds, apparently, and now it is in the system.  So let's have a look

13     at it.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MS. BIBLES:

16        Q.   All right.  Sir, we see this is the 5 November 1992 meeting of

17     the War Presidency.  We see that you're present; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And there's no mention of the 150 men who had been discussed

20     in -- at least in the day before; correct?

21        A.   The minutes do not reveal any number.

22        Q.   Now, the -- the last item states that a commission for war booty

23     is to be set up.  I can tell you that this Chamber has heard evidence

24     that the valuables of the people who surrendered at Grabovica were left

25     on the ground where they surrendered.

Page 30962

 1             Do you know, having been present at this meeting, whether this

 2     commission was being set up in response to those items?

 3        A.   I don't know why the commission was set up.  I know that it was

 4     set up.  It was sent to the field, as far as I know, and they collected

 5     those items.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Bibles, I think the English translation

 7     doesn't cover everything which is to be seen on the -- on the B/C/S

 8     version.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  You're quite right, Your Honour.  I will -- we will

10     submit this for translation.  I will not tender it at this time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but apparently the witness has answered the

12     question on the basis of what he could read.  And, therefore, for the

13     Chamber to understand the evidence of the witness because he said no

14     number was mentioned.  And I was about to ask him why there was no

15     reference to even persons being killed, apart from numbers, and I have

16     difficulties in putting that question to the witness, not knowing what

17     the document tells us.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Witness, was I -- were the 150 men discussed in this meeting?

20        A.   I can't remember whether they were or not.  But I know something

21     else.  Previously Colonel Novakovic told me that he had informed the

22     president of the War Presidency and some of its members about that.  I

23     can't remember the entire discussion that took place at that session, not

24     fully.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we will submit this for translation.

Page 30963

 1     I agree that it's not satisfactory.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but let's ... yes, we'll wait for that.

 3             Now, you said Colonel Novakovic had told you that he had informed

 4     the president of the War Presidency and some of its members about that.

 5     What are you referring to exactly with "that"?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the event which had taken

 7     place in Grabovica.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is that a large number of men were killed?  Is

 9     that what you're referring to?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, that people either

11     surrender or were captured, because Colonel Novakovic first mentioned

12     fighting and then he said that a certain number of people had

13     surrendered.  So I would say that it refers to both.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you are talking about fighting and about

15     surrendering.  I'm talking about being killed.  Could you please answer

16     that question, whether that was what Novakovic had told the president of

17     the War Presidency?  If you remember.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging from what he told me, he

19     referred to that as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Again, the same question:  Why not answer

21     that -- why not give that answer right away instead of going around it

22     for two or three times.

23             Now, was that discussed during the meeting?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, now, I wouldn't say that I

25     went around it.  I can't remember of any of the details mentioned at the

Page 30964

 1     session itself, but I believe that it --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if I say you are going around that

 3     question, that's a comment, not a question, and not the beginning of a

 4     debate.

 5             Could you tell us, could you answer my next question, then,

 6     whether this was at all mentioned during this meeting of the

 7     War Presidency on the --

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The killing.  I mean the killing.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we'll then later find -- but perhaps the

12     witness could tell us already.  He can read it.  Do you read in the

13     version in your language any reference to such killing?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not here.  I'd like to say this

15     is just one excerpt from the minutes which does not reflect the entire

16     discussion.  It is just an excerpt.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Witness.  But you've answered my question, that

18     it is not found in the minutes as -- the extract from the minutes as we

19     have it before us.

20             Mr. Lukic, you're in a better position to see what is there and

21     is not there.  I'm not asking you to -- at this moment to give any

22     evidence, but perhaps during the break or you could assist or any native

23     speaker could assist Ms. Bibles to know what we are looking at because

24     the Chamber doesn't know.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would suggest perhaps we just have

Page 30965

 1     the witness read item 2 in the original language.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's really against what we are supposed to

 3     do, because our interpreters are not translators.  But, now, under these

 4     exceptional circumstances, I'll ask the witness to slowly read.  But,

 5     again, Ms. Bibles, this is not how we should operate.  And, of course, I

 6     will be blamed by the interpreters for not following the rules of this

 7     Tribunal in this respect.

 8             But perhaps we could ask the witness to slowly read it and we do

 9     not expect the interpreters to do anything else than to interpret, and

10     it's not a verified translation which we'll receive.

11             Witness, could you slowly read, and upon the instructions of

12     Ms. Bibles, remaining portions of this document?

13             MS. BIBLES:

14        Q.   If could you just read item 2 to us, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Why don't we start with item 1?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 2 ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, any reason why we should not start with

18     item 1?

19             MS. BIBLES:  No, that's --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Most likely it is the approval of the minutes of the

21     116th -- if -- or everyone agrees that that's it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  It would be better if it's read.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness first read item 1.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Item 2 [as interpreted]:  Excerpt

25     from the minutes of the 116th meeting of the War Presidency."

Page 30966

 1             It was adopted without any objections.

 2             "Item 2:  Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic reported to the

 3     War Presidency about the situation in the field as it was in the course

 4     of the day yesterday.  He pointed out that combat operations were taking

 5     place in Duboka last evening and that today the clearing up of the area

 6     needs to be carried out.  Savo Tepic informed about a convoy that was

 7     organised and passed through safely.  Zarko Mikic emphasised that the

 8     clearing up of the terrain in Grabovica should be carried out."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you also then read item 3.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Item 3:  As part of this item,

11     there was a debate about military conscripts who were not assigned to any

12     units.  A conclusion was made that the commission should be set up which

13     would make a list of the war booty.  The session ended at 8.15."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Bibles, I think that we need an official

15     translation of this document.  And I think it's important to -- I don't

16     know whether you intended to tender it, but there is an emphasis

17     apparently on the necessity of "asanacija" which may be relevant.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would ask to MFI this document

19     pending the official translation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Full translation.  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31887 receives MFI P7090, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Now if we could have P3705 on our screens, please.

24     This is an extract of the minutes of the 6 November 1992 Kotor Varos

25     War Presidency.

Page 30967

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was the P number?  It's not recorded.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, I'm sorry.  P3705.

 3        Q.   We see that you're present for this meeting.  And I'd like to

 4     direct your attention to the end of item 2:

 5             "Djekanovic advises that he was in Grabovica the day before,

 6     monitoring the clearing of the terrain and the cleaning of the school."

 7             Sir, based on the information you have, is it your understanding

 8     that at least some of the men who surrendered were killed inside the

 9     school at Grabovica?

10        A.   Yes, and I based that on the information that I had.

11        Q.   Were more details about the massacre or about its clean-up

12     discussed in more detail in this meeting?

13        A.   I don't think that there was a detailed conversation about that

14     at the session.  As you can see from the documents, and I heard that from

15     Colonel Novakovic, the War Presidency and its members were abreast of all

16     the developments.

17        Q.   Sir, did you report to Janko Trivic that the 150 men had been

18     killed in Grabovica?

19        A.   I reported to Colonel Trivic.  I don't know whether I mentioned

20     any figures, but I remember literally that based on the information that

21     I had, the idiots up there caused a massacre.

22        Q.   Now, you knew that these killings were a crime; right?

23        A.   I called the event a massacre at the time because I did know that

24     a crime had been committed, indeed.

25        Q.   Did Trivic tell you to preserve the scene or scenes for an

Page 30968

 1     investigation?

 2        A.   Trivic only asked me whether members of my unit had participated

 3     in that.  I said no.  And then he said that he would have a word with

 4     Colonel Novakovic about that.  In other words, I was not instructed to do

 5     anything that would preserve the scene intact.

 6        Q.   So to the best of your knowledge, is it true that there was never

 7     any investigation on the part of the VRS into the killings of the 150 men

 8     at Grabovica?

 9        A.   I know nothing about that.  I know that I informed Colonel Trivic

10     about that, and I really don't know what he did next.

11             MS. BIBLES:  I'd now like to go to 65 ter 31911.  As this comes

12     up -- oh, I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you informed Colonel Trivic about the

14     massacre.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You had learned that from whom exactly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Colonel Novakovic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you yourself do anything in order to -- to

19     promote that the matter would be investigated?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did what I was supposed to do.  I

21     informed my superior commander along the command line, and then

22     Colonel Trivic should have informed the corps command.  I don't know

23     whether he did or not.  I know that at the session of the War Presidency,

24     we all condemned the whole thing, and we all demanded that an

25     investigation should be carried out with this regard and that certain

Page 30969

 1     commissions should be set up.  I don't know whether those commissions

 2     were ever set up or not.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said you demanded that an investigation would

 4     be carried out and you told that the War Presidency.  First of all, were

 5     you certain that your own subordinates had nothing to do with that

 6     crime -- those crimes committed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was certain because they were not

 8     there.  Physically they were not present.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said you demanded that an

10     investigation would be carried out.  What we see in the minutes of the

11     War Presidency is, first, that there's an insistence on cleaning

12     everything and there's a report the day after that the school was

13     cleaned.  Did you not say anything like:  This is not what an

14     investigation should be, to clean and wipe out all the possible traces?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know who was going to do

16     it or when.  I didn't know who was going to do sanitation and hygiene

17     activities.  It was not my part of my duties.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not find anything in the minutes that there

19     was any urging that an investigation would take place.  As a matter of

20     fact, what we see is rather the contrary.  Could you tell us whether

21     there's any documentary support for you urging that an investigation

22     should take place?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe you misunderstood me.  I did

24     not do that personally.  I told you that we discussed at the

25     War Presidency session.  It was not me personally who asked for that.

Page 30970

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:

 2             "We all demanded that an investigation should be carried out."

 3             "We all," in my view, would include you, yourself, if you were

 4     present.  But could you then tell us where we can find anything which

 5     would support your testimony that all demanded that an investigation

 6     would be carried out?  Because the documents, as we see it now, points

 7     rather to the contrary.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only document that might

 9     perhaps corroborate my words would be the entire minutes, not just an

10     excerpt from the minutes.  And I say maybe.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you'd say -- is there anything more,

12     Ms. Bibles, than just the extract of the minutes?

13             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour, not that --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Not that you're aware.  I'm also -- okay.

15     Apparently we do not know whether it would give support but it's not

16     available.

17             Do you have any knowledge about where that could be found, or

18     don't you know?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the then-War Presidency that

20     was in charge of the minutes.  I don't know what happened to all those

21     documents, where they all ended up.  In any case, as far as I know, the

22     documents at one point were stored in the municipality building.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

24             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 31911 on our screens,

25     please.

Page 30971

 1        Q.   And, sir, this is a 5 November 1992 article that features an

 2     interview with you.  Looking at page 1 in the B/C/S, I believe it's

 3     page 2 in the English, you've been quoted as saying it was a victory for

 4     the intelligence of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 5             And about six lines down in the English, and I apologise I'm not

 6     sure where it is in the original language, you speak about leading what

 7     you describe as Muslim fanatics to thin ice.  In the next sentence you

 8     say:

 9             "That is how they met the fate they deserved."

10             This is referring to the men from Vecici; correct?

11        A.   The extremists from Vecici, not the entire population.

12        Q.   Were you quoted accurately here?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you ask that, you should direct the attention

14     of the witness to the respective article.  There are three articles on

15     that page.  Which one is it?

16             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.  The article starting ...

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Sir, I believe it's the article that's encaptured in the box on

20     the page in front of you.  Is that --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we enlarge that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I absolutely can't see this.  The

23     letters are too small.

24             MS. BIBLES:

25        Q.   Thank you.  We'll expand it.  Can you read it now or does it need

Page 30972

 1     to be expanded further?

 2        A.   A bit further, please.  And now I can't see the entire text.  Can

 3     you zoom out just a little bit?

 4        Q.   And it's in the left column in the space below the bolded --

 5        A.   It's good now.  I can see it now.  Scroll down a little.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Further.  I think you can put your question now

 7     because it's the second -- the paragraph on the left side, not in bold.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Sir, now that you've had an opportunity to read the places on

10     which you were quoted, can you tell us whether you were quoted

11     accurately?

12        A.   In principle, this would have been more or less what I said.  And

13     when we're talking here about people, those would be extremists.  Further

14     on, you will see what my position was towards the elderly, women, and

15     children.  Our military target were the extremists, not the elderly, the

16     women, or the children.

17        Q.   Well, sir, with respect to the 150 men who you've already

18     testified their killing was a crime, can you tell us if you have

19     information as to where their bodies have gone?

20        A.   There was some very generalised information about all that, but

21     there was a veil of secrecy around all that.  Not a lot was said.  I

22     heard from somebody - I can't remember from whom - that those bodies were

23     buried somewhere in the direction of Plitska.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

25     witness.

Page 30973

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have questions on this document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Judge Moloto has a question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you say according to this document and I

 4     hope -- I'll read what I see here and then you can tell me whether it's

 5     correct quotation from you.  You say:

 6             "That is how they met the fate they deserved."

 7             Can you see that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What it reads in my version is

 9     that:

10             "And so the extremists received the punishment they deserved."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the punishment that was meted out?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The extremists were punished in

13     such a way, from our point of view, was that they be liquidated or taken

14     prisoner.  Only in my battalion some 60 soldiers were killed and 100 were

15     wounded by those extremists.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you there -- can I just stop you there.

17     You're saying it was supposed to be that they be liquidated or be taken

18     prisoner.  I'm not asking you what the options were.  I asked what became

19     of them.  Were they liquidated or were they taken prisoner?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my knowledge, some

21     were eliminated and others taken prisoner.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what do you mean by "eliminate"?  Do you mean

23     liquidate?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, these people had been taken prisoner.  Isn't

Page 30974

 1     it so?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some extremists were killed in the

 3     fighting conducted against the units of the 1st Light Infantry

 4     Kotor Varos Brigade and the 1st Knezevo Brigade.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about those -- I'm talking about

 6     these, these that you would not allow to leave Kotor Varos unarmed --

 7     armed.  You had to disarm them and then having been disarmed, you said

 8     they got liquidated, didn't they?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You misunderstood.  Some of those

10     extremists --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't -- just a second, please.  I'm reading

12     this document in which you are being quoted.  You are quoted as having

13     said:

14             "Our expectations have come true.  Since we did not let the

15     Muslim fanatics leave the Kotor Varos armed although they had claimed

16     that they would only need them in Travnik due to the more and more

17     frequent conflicts between Croatian and Muslim armies," and then it goes

18     on.

19             And now, after that, that's when you then say that is how they

20     met the fate they deserved.  So you didn't allow them to leave armed and

21     then you send them to their fate which was, as you explained,

22     liquidation.  Is that correct?  Do I understand that article correctly?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you did not understand it

24     correctly.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just tell me how I must understand it.

Page 30975

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be understood in this

 2     way.  Not 150 people left Vecici but many more.  They were in several

 3     groups --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This document doesn't mention any number.  We're

 5     talking about here about Muslim fighters --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a news report.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Precisely.  And it's not talking about any

 8     numbers.  It's talking about Muslim fanatics which you have said to

 9     Madam Bibles those were fanatics and they were not the people -- the

10     civilians.  Therefore they had to meet this fate that they deserved.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may assist only.  There is a

12     number, but upper in this text it is mentioned 500 extremist fighters --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see --

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- and 60 killed in combat.  So there are numbers and

15     maybe you should see the whole text.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I don't see that.  And may I be shown that,

17     please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps in the previous page in English.

19             MR. LUKIC:  In the upper part of B/C/S as well.  Maybe it should

20     be shown to the witness as well.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then in B/C/S it should be scrolled up.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can see the number of 500.  That

23     notwithstanding, my question still stands.  The number of the Muslim

24     fanatics may or may not be less than the 500, but I'm just asking about

25     the Muslim fanatics who met this fate of liquidation, whatever their

Page 30976

 1     number.  Can you explain to us how we must understand that part of the

 2     article where it talks about disarming them and then sending them to

 3     their fate.  Just can you explain --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the military target were the

 5     extremists.  Those extremists needed to be prevailed over and eliminated.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you.  We don't have much time.  I

 7     understand that they were military targets.  What I'm saying is, you have

 8     now disarmed them and you have told us a few minutes ago that they either

 9     had to be liquidated or be taken prisoner, so they are now no longer in

10     combat.  They are now prisoners.  But then you decided they must be

11     liquidated and they were liquidated.

12             My question is:  How else do we have to understand this part and

13     your own evidence on this point?  You've told us they were liquidated.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the extremists needed to be

15     either liquidated or taken prisoner.  They were a legitimate military

16     target and that's where --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your have told us that.  You've told us that and

18     we have gone past that.  You've told us that in fact between liquidation

19     and taken prisoner, they were actually liquidated.  You have told us

20     that.  So whatever you say, please don't repeat what you've already told

21     us.

22             Now, I see you're keeping quiet.  I'm going to ask you my next

23     question.  My next question is:  Was it within the laws -- can I ask my

24     question.  Was it within the international conventions that you referred

25     to earlier to liquidate them because they were fanatics?

Page 30977

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must explain briefly.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Answer my question first, answer my question

 3     before you explain.  Then you can explain after answering my question.

 4     Was it within international conventions to liquidate them because they

 5     were fanatics?  Yes or no.  And then you can explain.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But you said I could explain.  It

 9     is unfair.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I first inform you that this is a testing which

13     takes place every first Monday of the month at 12.00.  So don't be

14     worried about the sirens.

15             Then now please explain --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please explain.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So -- so under the punishment they

18     preserved [as interpreted] is to be liquidated during combat.  It

19     pertained to the extremists.  It also pertained to being taken prisoner.

20     I did not want to place anything else under the concept of punishment.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not explaining the point.  You tried to

22     explain why you say no, it is not within the legal -- international

23     conventions to do so.

24             My next question:  Who liquidated them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the information I

Page 30978

 1     received from Colonel Novakovic, when he said that there was a terrible

 2     incident there which primarily included Serbian civilian population, he

 3     said that his security and his soldiers were unable to prevent that

 4     incident from taking place.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In your mind, now that you said this is not

 6     according to international conventions, would you regard this kind of

 7     killing of these people a crime?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I would.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Do you know if anyone of those people

10     who killed them was arrested and went through the law?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no such knowledge.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Ivetic -- Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time you'd

15     need in re-examination?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Not more than 20 minutes, I hope I'll finish in 15.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break first and then you have an

18     opportunity to re-examine the witness.

19             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We'd like to

20     see you back in 20 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 30979

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to come in,

 2     Mr. Lukic, I think the Chamber did not receive yet the information it

 3     wished to receive in relation to the expert witnesses, at least the

 4     information was too vague.  Without going into details now, could you

 5     please consider whether you could, on shortest notice, give us whatever

 6     information you have or perhaps even not have yet but which you

 7     understand the Chamber would need.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be re-examined by Mr. Lukic.

10             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, once again, Mr. Zupljanin.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Could we have P440 on our screens, please.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] This document has already been shown to you,

16     dated the 30th October 1992.

17             You said that there was no fighting before the civilians left.

18     We see in item 1 that it states:

19             "The citizens of the village of Vecici were given the opportunity

20     to persuade the paramilitary formations to give up their weapons ..."

21             And then further down it says:

22             "The stand was taken to allow the departure and evacuation of the

23     civilian population in exchange for the bodies of three dead soldiers and

24     three captured soldiers of the VRS.  The convoy with the population is to

25     set out at 0700 hours on 1 November 1992."

Page 30980

 1             Do you know if a convoy was indeed organised that was supposed to

 2     carry civilians?

 3        A.   Yes, a convoy was organised.

 4        Q.   At that time, although there is combat operation referred to in

 5     the date -- in the document, it is stated that on 1 November the convoy

 6     was supposed to be organised.  Do you know whether there was any fighting

 7     between the 30th of October and the 1st of November?

 8        A.   My unit was not engaged in any combat operations but I'm not

 9     certain about the 1st Light Infantry Kotor Varos Brigade.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have P443 on our screens, please.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] We will see an excerpt from the minutes of the

13     War Presidency of Kotor Varos dated the 2nd November 1992.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's P443.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] In the last paragraph we see that

17     Captain Balaban brought representatives to negotiate from Vecici, and we

18     see their names.  And apparently they went back to Vecici.  So on the

19     2nd of November when there were still negotiations under way, was there

20     still combat or were there only negotiations happening at the time?

21        A.   As far as I know, only the negotiations were under way at the

22     time.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you understand the English language?

Page 30981

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not so well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll refrain at this moment from further

 3     dealing with the matter.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  If we can see P2884 on our screens.

 6             [Interpretation] This document contains several excerpts from the

 7     minutes.  While we are on this page, please look at the bottom of the

 8     page.  Item 2 in the B/C/S.  I apologise, item 3.  In the English, it is

 9     at the very bottom of the page.

10        Q.   We can see that you were -- are taking the floor there.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need to move to the next page

12     in English where the part I will be referring to is found.

13        Q.   We see it at the very top of the English page and in the B/C/S,

14     it is item 3, Captain S. Zupljanin.  It is stated here that you pointed

15     out the possibility of introducing a bus line to Siprage.  And this

16     discussion was taking place on the 2nd of November, 1992.

17             Was it easy to organise a bus route at the time and is this

18     something you were working on?

19        A.   We were working on it, because there was constant communication

20     with Siprage and I believe our communication with the civilian population

21     there was excellent, with the representatives of Muslims from Siprage

22     village.  Of course, there were reasons for that.  There was the will on

23     the part of the civilians, residents of Siprage, to deal with the

24     situation in Siprage incident free.  It was also in the interests of the

25     VRS because daily or weekly, at least once, parts of military units went

Page 30982

 1     through Siprage in order to reach their positions at Vlasic.  Therefore,

 2     we established such links with them that throughout the period, the

 3     residents of Siprage move unhindered into the direction of Kotor Varos or

 4     elsewhere they wanted to go.  By the same token, without any incidents

 5     our soldiers passed through the village en route to their positions.  The

 6     situation was one of great mutual trust.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   At this same time, do you know if there were ABiH formation

10     members at Vasic who were from Siprage?

11        A.   We knew that from a reliable source.  There was an attack on our

12     positions between 12th and 14th of September, 1992.  Among the killed

13     Muslim soldiers in the sector of Rijecica were the corpses of several

14     fighters from Siprage.  However, for us it is not reason enough to cause

15     any incident in Siprage.  We simply continued developing good

16     co-operation in order to preserve the peace and good atmosphere.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go back to the situation in Vecici.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the third page of this

19     document in the B/C/S and the next page in the English version.

20     Actually, two pages ahead in the English.  It is an excerpt of the

21     minutes from the 1st of November, 1992, from the meeting of the

22     Kotor Varos War Presidency.  Somewhere around the middle of the page in

23     the B/C/S, we see:  "Captain S. Zupljanin."

24        A.   Slobodan.

25        Q.   Yes, we have "S. Zupljanin" here.  It reads:

Page 30983

 1             "Captain S. Zupljanin remarked that previously he had wholly

 2     supported the earlier adopted solution to the question of Vecici ..."

 3             Tell us what were you against or what were you in favour of?

 4        A.   We were in favour of the weapons being handed over and that

 5     everyone be allowed to leave Vecici if they so wished in whatever

 6     direction they wanted to go, under the condition I mentioned previously,

 7     which was that the bodies of three of our killed people were handed over

 8     as well as the three prisoners they had.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have P852, please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] We will see an excerpt from the minutes of the

12     Kotor Varos War Presidency dated the 4th of November.  This was shown to

13     you, where it says that the fate of the captured fighters will be decided

14     by Pejic, Zupljanin, Balaban, and Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic.  This is

15     the 4th of November.

16             In relation to it, let us look at P441, so do please bear in mind

17     the task issued to the four people referenced therein on the 4th of

18     November.

19             Please bear with me.  Before us is a report of the 1st Krajina

20     Corps Command dated the 4th of November, 1992.  It has already been

21     reported in item 2, paragraph 2, that -- it's somewhere in the middle of

22     the paragraph, that some 40 members of the Green Berets were killed and

23     some 200 captured.

24             "A brutal massacre of the captured members of the Green Berets

25     started because of the wounding of four and the killing of one soldier of

Page 30984

 1     the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade and the burning of wounded

 2     soldiers on Gola Planina (Jajce)."

 3             It was on the same day that you were issued the task by the

 4     War Presidency.  Do you know that Pejic, Balaban, and Novakovic -- or

 5     whether the three had anything to do with the implementation of the task

 6     assigned to you as well on the 4th of November, 1992, to decide on the

 7     fate of these people?

 8        A.   Your interpretation is incorrect.  We did not receive a task.

 9     Pejic, one of those present at War Presidency sessions, said that.  It

10     was his statement.  It was not binding on either me or others.  Pejic

11     could not issue tasks to members of the army, in particular.  I may

12     exclude the police but certainly not the army.

13        Q.   What is that I'm trying to show?  On the 4th of November, when

14     this discussion took place at the War Presidency, it is the same day when

15     the report by the 1st KK Command was issued.  By that time, the people

16     had been killed, the day earlier; correct?

17        A.   I don't know for sure, but I suppose so.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at 65 ter 31887.

20     I don't know if it has a P number.  I've not made a note of that.

21        Q.   This is dated 5 November, an excerpt from the 117th Session of

22     the War Presidency.  You have already seen that.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now P7090, MFI.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] You have read out under item 2.  Something

Page 30985

 1     hasn't been translated, therefore I'm going to read it to you:

 2             "Savo Tepic informed about a convoy that has been organised and

 3     passed through safely."

 4             How many groups of people withdrew from Vecici, if you know?

 5        A.   According to the information that I had, some of the civilians

 6     withdrew from Vecici in a convoy from Vecici to Vrbanjci and then on to

 7     Kotor Varos and further on in the direction of Banja Luka.  Those who did

 8     not opt for that kind of withdrawal and instead went in the direction of

 9     Jezica or, rather, the general sector of Grabovica and Skender Vakuf.

10     According to the information that I subsequently received, they were

11     withdrawing in three groups at least.  Some of those engaged with members

12     of the VRS, some of the units surrendered to the Knezevo Brigade, and

13     some to the 1st Light Kotor Varos Brigade of the VRS.

14        Q.   Apart from those men who were killed in Grabovica, what about the

15     transport of others?  Was it uneventful or were there any problems as far

16     as you know?

17        A.   As far as I know, their transport was uneventful.

18        Q.   You have told us that you informed your commander, Trivic, about

19     what Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic had told you; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic was the commander of the unit whose

22     elements were deployed in Grabovica; right?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   You have also told us that the War Presidency was abreast of the

25     killings in Grabovica; right?

Page 30986

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   As a battalion commander, the commander of a battalion that was

 3     not deployed in Grabovica, were you in a position to carry out an

 4     independent investigation at the time?

 5        A.   No, I couldn't do that.

 6        Q.   Apart from briefing your own commander, were you duty-bound to

 7     brief or report to anybody else?

 8        A.   No, I was not duty-bound to do that.

 9        Q.   And now let's look at the last document I have.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter number 31911.  I don't

11     have its P number, if it indeed has been given one.

12        Q.   We'll go back to the document but let's first look at the top of

13     the page, and we can see that the newspaper was published on Thursday,

14     5 November 1992.  And it says here:  "Kotor Varos, 4 November," this is

15     what the news item is about.

16             Do you remember the date when you gave this interview?

17        A.   No, I can't remember the date with any reliability.

18        Q.   When you're talking about the liquidation of extremists, what

19     liquidation did you have in mind?

20        A.   I was talking about the liquidation of extremists who were

21     liquidated in fighting with the Knezevo Brigade in the sector above

22     Jezica in the direction of Knezevo.

23        Q.   It says here in the text that there were over 60 casualties on

24     the side of Muslim fighters.  As a matter of fact, I have no further

25     questions about this particular document.

Page 30987

 1             Mr. Zupljanin, this was all I had prepared for you.  Thank you

 2     for having answered my questions.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Bibles, you didn't tender this document.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Right.  My appreciation to my colleague across the

 6     courtroom.  I would now tender 31911.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The number, Madam Registrar, would be ...?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  31911 receives Exhibit P7091, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             Witness, before you give an opportunity to Ms. Bibles to put

11     further questions to you, I have a question in relation to paragraph 19

12     of your statement wherein you emphasised that you were the first to

13     prepare and send the superior command the report on the event at

14     Koricanske Stijene where the 22nd Infantry Brigade played a positive role

15     in the sense of providing help to the wounded.

16             Could you -- you are not further elaborating on the event.  Could

17     you tell us exactly what you refer to?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the massacre of civilians

19     from Prijedor at Koricanske Stijene, and that location is within the

20     deployment sector of the 22nd Infantry Brigade.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you say you provided help to the wounded.

22     There were not many wounded because most of them were killed, isn't it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now - and I'm also looking at the Defence -

25     you say that you have prepared and sent a report to the superior command.

Page 30988

 1     Is that anywhere in evidence, Mr. Lukic?  Or is it -- because the

 2     Chamber, in order to better understand and analyse the evidence, would

 3     like to see how this report was -- what the text of that report is.

 4             Do you have a copy or -- was it a written report, to start with,

 5     as the first question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a copy of that report

 7     but I know for a fact that the written report was conveyed to the corps

 8     command through our communications means.  Lieutenant-Colonel, or

 9     Colonel, Peulic and I discussed that subsequently.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now was your positive role set out there, or

11     was the event in its entirety described?  That is, with a lot of people

12     apparently just executed, very few surviving.  Now what did you report?

13     Or do the parties have the report anywhere so that we could at least have

14     a look at how it was reported?  But perhaps the witness could tell us

15     already and the parties meanwhile will search for whether there is a

16     report available.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we learnt that the massacre

18     had taken place, that the civilians over there had been killed - I'm

19     talking about Koricanske Stijene - Peulic learnt about that, and he

20     immediately sent some of the soldiers to the site of the incident.  There

21     were members of the scout detachment or the military police.  They

22     returned and told him that the civilian population had indeed been

23     massacred over there.  And then Peulic ordered the scouts and the

24     military police to try and see what could be done in order to save the

25     victims.  I learned later on, not on that date, but indeed later on that.

Page 30989

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But now what did the report say?

 2             Ms. Bibles.

 3             One second, please.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I could direct your attention to

 5     65 ter 6644, which is a report of the 1KK from Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic

 6     regarding this event.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We may have a look at it soon.

 8             What did you report?  A massacre has happened.  Many civilians

 9     were killed, were executed, but fortunately a few survived -- one second.

10     But fortunately we were able to help the very few survivors.  And is that

11     the kind of report?  Or was it:  We learned about people being wounded

12     and we went there to help them?  Could you describe more or less what the

13     gist of the report was.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gist of the report was this:  A

15     crime or a massacre took place in the deployment sector of the brigade.

16     A lot of people were killed.  The brigade undertook measures in order to

17     learn more and to possibly help the survivors.  I believe that that was

18     the gist of that report.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's ... one second, please.

20             Yes, perhaps we get 65 ter 6640 on our -- was it 6640?  Let me

21     just a look.  6644 on our screen.

22             Yes, I see the report indeed in very clear terms describes - we

23     have it on our screen now - that refugees were taken out and genocide

24     against the civilians was committed by killing them in various ways and

25     throwing them into the river canyon.  That is an unequivocal description

Page 30990

 1     of a massacre.

 2             Now I see that Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic did send this document.

 3     Is there any documentary support for your participation in the

 4     preparation and the sending of this report?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if there's any

 6     documentary support.  When a report is handwritten, it is sent to the

 7     communications service of the unit, which then in its turn does what they

 8     need to do with the unit.  The report is submitted to the commander, and

 9     it can be prepared by anybody in the unit who was given the task to

10     prepare it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you said you prepared that report.  Is that

12     how I have to understand or ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I provided the main determinants of

14     that report, as it were.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and how did you learn about it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody came to the command to

17     talk to Peulic.  He briefed us -- or him about the incident and then

18     Peulic in his turn briefed all the others of us at the command.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now it's still not clear what then exactly

20     your role was in that.  The report is clear.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't play any particular role.

22     When we learnt about that and when we realised what had happened, we

23     immediately knew and were of the opinion that our superior command had to

24     be told the truth.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.

Page 30991

 1             Mr. Lukic, I can imagine that this clearly supports -- at least

 2     that Peulic reported at some point in time, the time is a still a bit

 3     unclear because the date, whether it's August or not, it looks as if it's

 4     the 21st.  Now it's my recollection that the -- could -- do the parties

 5     have a common opinion about on what date the Koricanske Stijene -- wasn't

 6     it the 28th of August?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  I believe it was the 21st of August, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  21st of August.  If it would be the 21st August,

 9     then it may be very likely that what is illegible which --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 21st.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- looks a bit like it could be well be an 8 in the

12     original, I would say.  It also looks a bit like a 6.  But the two do not

13     contradict each other necessarily.

14             Mr. Lukic, would this be a document you'd like to tender?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we'd like to tender it.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06644 receives Exhibit Number D888,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D888 is admitted into evidence.

20             Any further questions?

21             MS. BIBLES:  Just briefly, Your Honour.  I'd like to go back

22     quickly to P852.

23                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

24        Q.   Sir, was it your recollection that most of the War Presidency

25     meetings were early in the morning, around 8.00?

Page 30992

 1        A.   Yes, in the early morning hours usually.

 2        Q.   And we see on our screen the document Mr. Lukic referred to on

 3     the 4th of November, 1992, and this reflects 8.00 a.m.  Is that

 4     consistent with your recollection of that meeting?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then if we could go to P441 which was also directed to your

 7     attention on re-direct.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to page 3 in both versions.

 9        Q.   And, sir, would you agree that the 1900 hours at the end of this

10     report would suggest that this was the evening report submitted to the

11     corps?  I'm sorry, from the corps.

12        A.   I don't see that.  1900 hours?

13        Q.   If you -- excuse me, sir, if you could look down at the bottom of

14     the page in the little square.

15             MS. BIBLES:  Perhaps we could blow that up.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Inside the stamp.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, thank you.

18        Q.   Inside the stamp.

19        A.   Yes, it may be 1900 hours because the units used to submit their

20     reports to the corps command by that time.

21        Q.   So is it also reasonable to conclude from these documents that

22     the killing of the 150 men occurred sometime after 8.10 in the morning

23     and 1900 hours in the evening on the 4th of November, 1992?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you after or do you say between?

25             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry, between.

Page 30993

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now, Ms. Bibles, are you seeking a conclusion

 2     from this witness interpreting the documents?  Is that what you are

 3     seeking from him?  Ask him what he knows, and if you want to draw

 4     conclusions then, perhaps that's argument rather than --

 5             MS. BIBLES:  And I apologise.  I was moving quickly.

 6        Q.   Having seen these two documents and reflecting on your own

 7     knowledge at the time, do you believe that it's likely the men were

 8     killed during sometime between 8.10 in the morning and 1900 on the

 9     4th of November, 1992?

10        A.   You mean Koricanske Stijene?

11        Q.   No, I'm sorry, referring to the men at Grabovica.

12        A.   It may have been during that interval, yes, because we didn't

13     hear anything about that in the morning.

14             MS. BIBLES:  And I have no further recross, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, I left it until the very last end

16     of -- and perhaps ... yes, just to let you know -- do you have any

17     further questions for the witness?

18             MR. LUKIC:  No, I don't, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I -- then there's no problem perhaps in

20     raising the matter.

21             You asked the witness whether it was still negotiating rather

22     than doing anything else, referring to P440.  Now, of course, I've

23     carefully listened to the answer of the witness but if I read in P444,

24     under 2, the Kotor Varos 1st Light Infantry Brigade is carrying out an

25     attack with some of its forces and then the whole thing is described

Page 30994

 1     there.  Then, of course -- and we'll carefully consider the answer of the

 2     witness but apparently you did not put it to the witness and you should

 3     be aware that if you conduct your examination in such a way that you

 4     leave the Chamber to find out whether the document is the better or

 5     whether the evidence of the witness is the better evidence.

 6             I think P440, I think I have -- let me just check.  I think it's

 7     P440.  I just wanted to bring this to your attention, but since you had

 8     no further questions to the witness --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I can maybe draw your attention, Your Honour - you

10     can check in other documents of this kind - that it was present tense

11     used for future actions in documents like this.  And you can see in the

12     document on the second page that the command post was envisaged to be

13     established on 1st of 11.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all fine but the language is pretty clear:

15     Is carrying out --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] -- is present --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- an attack and describes then what should be done

18     according to the success of the action undertaken at that point in time

19     in which Vecici is -- okay.

20             I leave it to that, but just be aware that if you ask these

21     questions, that, of course, the Chamber will not stop reading the

22     documents.  We leave it to that.

23             Witness, I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

24     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,

25     put to you by the parties and put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a

Page 30995

 1     safe return home again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 4             I would prefer that the statement is returned to the party that

 5     has provided it, and that is the Defence in this case.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we first take a break.  And then is the

 8     Defence ready to call its next witness after the break?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we are ready, and we are calling

10     Mr. Kolenda, Davor.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we will take a break and resume at

12     20 minutes to 2.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

16     courtroom.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Kolenda, I presume.

20             Mr. Kolenda, before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

21     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you, and I'd

22     like to invite to you make that solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  DAVOR KOLENDA

Page 30996

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Kolenda.

 3             Mr. Kolenda, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 4     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 5             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kolenda.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I would kindly ask the assistance of the usher to

11     hand the written statement to Mr. Kolenda.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kolenda, for the record, please, kindly tell

13     us your first and last name.

14        A.   Davor Kolenda.

15             MR. LUKIC:  And can we have 1D1705 on our screens, please.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kolenda, did you provide a statement to

17     members of General Mladic's Defence team?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In front of you on the screen and in hard copy is a document.  Do

20     you see a signature on it and do you recognise it?

21        A.   I do, and it is my signature.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go to the last page now.  It

23     is on the screen.

24        Q.   Do you recognise the signature there?

25        A.   I do.

Page 30997

 1        Q.   Is it yours?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You have had occasion to go through the statement.

 4     Hence, I would like to ask you whether what is recorded in it is recorded

 5     accurately?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Does the statement accurately and truthfully reflect what you

 8     told us?  Is it accurate and truthful?

 9        A.   I provided a similar statement in July 1993, and I think the two

10     are identical.

11        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

12     answer the same way?

13        A.   Given the fact that I was an eye-witness to these events, my

14     answer is yes, I would.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

16     be asked to speak up or approach the microphone.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come a bit closer to the microphone

18     or to speak slightly louder.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, one of your questions were not

20     answered.  The question if the statement accurately and truthfully

21     reflects what he has told.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kolenda, you heard the question.  We are missing something in

24     the transcript.  The contents of this written statement, does it

25     accurately reflect what you stated at the time?

Page 30998

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness referred to a statement in

 4     July 1993.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  He said that he gave almost the same statement in

 6     1993 --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But to who --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  To some other organ, not to our [overlapping

 9     speakers] --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do not know -- to whom did you give a

11     statement in 1993?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the SIS service of the HVO.  It

13     is the security service of the Croatian Defence Council.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  After this we would tender

17     the statement of Mr. Kolenda into evidence, Your Honours.

18             MR. BOS:  No objections, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01705 receives Exhibit Number D889,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D889 is admitted.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I will just read the

24     statement summary of Mr. Kolenda and I will not have questions for him at

25     this moment.

Page 30999

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             In 1993, Mr. Kolenda held the positions of chief of general

 4     affairs and general secretary of HVO, Croat Defence Council of Travnik.

 5             Having been an official of the Croatian Defence Council in the

 6     Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Kolenda will testify about the armed

 7     clashes between the Muslims and Croats in Central Bosnia and about the

 8     exodus of the Croat population from Central Bosnia on 7th of June, 1993.

 9             Mr. Kolenda tried to negotiate with UNPROFOR to help Croat

10     population to safely leave the area of Travnik but UNPROFOR

11     representatives refused to do so.  Because of this, he started to

12     negotiate with the Serb side the evacuation of the wounded and immobile

13     civilians, the elderly, women, and children through the Serb-held

14     territory.

15             When the Muslims had cut off the road through Bukovica, a large

16     number of military conscripts were heading towards Galica and Serb-held

17     territory together with the civilians.

18             He will speak about the movement of several thousand women,

19     children, men, and soldiers across Mount Vlasic and Kupres, through the

20     Serb territory, and about the humanitarian and medical aid provided by

21     the Serbs during the passage.

22             Davor Kolenda will explain that a military element of HVO was

23     accommodated at Manjaca for several days during the above-described

24     movement, until vehicles were provided for their further transport.  He

25     will testify that the accommodation was provided on humanitarian grounds

Page 31000

 1     and without any criminal motive, whereby he will refute the assertions of

 2     the expert, Witness Ewan Brown.

 3             On 12th of June, 1993, Croat soldiers were taken from Manjaca to

 4     Vares, Croat-held territory in B and H.

 5             That was the short summary.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no further questions.  Could you assist us,

 9     Mr. Lukic.  Is it in general that the evidence refutes the assertions of

10     Ewan Brown or is it specific portions which --

11             MR. LUKIC:  It is specific portion of Mr. Brown's report

12     regarding Manjaca, when he was describing that Manjaca was operating as a

13     camp in 1993 as well and had in mind this --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's --

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- placement of HVO soldiers.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it is clear that it's about that portion.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, even when Mr. Lukic has no questions for

19     you, it doesn't mean that your evidence is lacking importance in no way,

20     but we have it in written form here.  And you will now be cross-examined

21     by Mr. Bos.  Mr. Bos is counsel for the Prosecution.

22             Mr. Bos, you may proceed.

23             MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bos:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kolenda.

Page 31001

 1             Sir, just prior to the outbreak of the military clash between the

 2     ABiH and the HVO in June 1993, you held the position in the Travnik

 3     government as minister of non-commercial sector information, general

 4     affairs, and refugees; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And as the responsible person for refugee issues, I take it that

 7     you had access to and knowledge of data relating to the number of

 8     refugees that entered the municipality of Travnik in this period; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So you would have been aware that there was a mass flight from

12     the Krajina in the period between the commencement of the conflict and

13     mid-1993 and that more than 18.000 Bosnian Muslims from the Krajina area

14     registered in Travnik municipality alone?

15        A.   According to my information, in early June 1993, there were

16     17.600 of them.

17        Q.   Very well, sir.  Almost 18.000.  And is it not true that these

18     refugees from the Krajina were expelled on a daily basis from this area

19     by the VRS?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Sir, it was already mentioned at the beginning, it's true that

22     you also gave a statement to the HVO SIS, in effect it was on

23     September -- the 2nd of September, 1993; correct?

24        A.   I think it was in July, although I don't know when it was filed

25     exactly.

Page 31002

 1        Q.   But we'll -- I'm going to show you the statement.  But this

 2     statement is indeed almost identical verbatim to the content of your

 3     statement that you gave to the Mladic Defence; correct?

 4        A.   I'd say 95 per cent identical.

 5        Q.   And it's those 5 per cent that -- there's a couple of parts in

 6     that statement that were taken out and a couple of these parts that were

 7     taken out I would like to go through, over with you.

 8             MR. BOS:  So I would ask the Registry to put on the screen

 9     65 ter 31926.

10        Q.   And this will be your SIS statement.  And maybe if I could direct

11     you first to the last page, which is page 10 on the B/C/S version, and

12     maybe you can confirm there if that's indeed the signature -- your

13     signature on that page.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Sir, I want next direct you to the B/C/S page number 7 and the

16     English page number 8.  And on the B/C/S page number 7 I'm referring you

17     to the bottom sentence, and the English on page 8, which reads, and I'll

18     read out the sentence:

19             "I was asked to give an interview to the Banja Luka Television

20     and to present the events in Travnik, which I did."

21             Can you see that sentence?

22        A.   I must say that my sight does not allow me to read such small

23     text, but perhaps with the usher's assistance, it could be enlarged.  In

24     any case, I did provide an interview for the Banja Luka TV.

25             MR. BOS:  Let's try and enlarge it and we should enlarge the

Page 31003

 1     bottom part of the statement because I'm talking about the one-but-last

 2     sentence.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You enlarged the English version

 4     but not the Croatian one.

 5             MR. BOS:

 6        Q.   Give us a moment.

 7        A.   Certainly.

 8        Q.   There, so --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is not sufficient.  We could remove the

10     English one for a while so that the witness is able to read an enlarged

11     the B/C/S part.

12             MR. BOS:  Yeah, thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No need.  It's fine.

14             MR. BOS:

15        Q.   So is this large enough, Mr. Kolenda?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So as I said I'd like to refer you to the one-but-last sentence

18     which says:

19             "I was asked to give an interview to the Banja Luka Television

20     and to present the events in Travnik, which I did."

21             You read that sentence?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we could again put the English version as

24     well.

25             MR. BOS:  Well, maybe if -- if we can leave it for one minute

Page 31004

 1     because I'm going to ask about the next sentence as well.

 2        Q.   But let me first ask you this:  This request to give an interview

 3     to the Banja Luka Television, that was shortly made after you and all the

 4     civilians had been evacuated from Ovcarevo to the Serb-controlled area of

 5     Kalesija.  Is that correct?  And so this was on the 7th of June.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Shouldn't we move to the next page in the B/C/S.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the statement was given

 8     immediately after my arrival at Galica.  I appeared at Galica with my

 9     escort following the protection unit's end of tasks.  We followed them

10     and a colleague of mine came as last there on the 7th of June.

11             MR. BOS:

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, this sentence just corresponds directly with

13     paragraph 38 of your 92 ter statement.  But the next sentence - and I'll

14     read that one out to you - is a sentence that is not found back in your

15     statement and this one reads:

16             "The Serbs wanted to use that favour of their in media purposes

17     and they wanted it."

18             Now, the English translation is not very clear.  Could you

19     explain what you meant by that sentence in your SIS statement?

20        A.   I wanted to say what really happened in the field.  That is to

21     say, we needed assistance with evacuating civilians, the wounded,

22     children, and a part of the armed force.  The Serbs obviously used it for

23     propaganda purposes in order to show the world that they respect

24     international law and other elements of humanitarian law.  They wanted to

25     have it publicised for everyone to see.

Page 31005

 1        Q.   And is it correct that after this interview that you gave to

 2     Banja Luka Television that you also gave a statement to Reuters press

 3     that day?  And three days later that you were also giving statements at

 4     Manjaca camp?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, I would like to look at a press report that was issued

 7     after your arrival at Manjaca camp.

 8             MR. BOS:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31928 on the

 9     screen.

10        Q.   Now, I hope we can enlarge it in such a way that can you read it,

11     Mr. Kolenda.  Now, this is an article - and we'll read that in the first

12     part of the document - from a journalist called V. Dubocanin and it's

13     dated the 15th of June, 1993.  And it's entitled:  "Davor Kolenda,

14     Secretary-General of the Croatian Defence Council in Travnik, on genesis

15     of Muslim Croat conflict in former Bosnia-Herzegovina:  Evil of Bajram."

16             Can you read that, that's in the first part of this document.

17             Now, this article -- in this article you discuss in more detail

18     the conflict between the Bosnian Muslims and the Croats in Travnik and

19     you express your gratitude on how you came to agreement with the Serbs to

20     save the Bosnian Croat civilians from Travnik from what you called in

21     this interview the invasion of Islamic evil.  Do you recall giving this

22     interview to Mr. Dubocanin?

23        A.   When I reached Galica, which is on Mount Vlasic overlooking

24     Travnik, I provided an interview to a TV crew brought there by the VRS.

25     It lasted for about 45 minutes.  In that TV interview, I explained the

Page 31006

 1     genesis of events from 1992, when the first incidents broke out involving

 2     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, until the moment we were expelled from

 3     Travnik.

 4        Q.   Sir, if I could direct you to the last part of this document --

 5             MR. BOS:  And that will be page 2 of both the B/C/S and the

 6     English version.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first have a -- Witness, you explained to

 8     us that you gave a TV interview.  Was that an interview conducted by

 9     Mr.   Dubocanin or was that another interview?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea who Mr. Dubocanin

11     is.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. BOS:

14        Q.   Sir, I'm directing your attention now to the last part of this

15     interview in which are you quoted saying -- and I'll read out from the

16     document.  This is when you were being asked about your treatment in

17     Manjaca camp, and you're saying:

18             "We were actually nicely received and welcomed, and we owe the

19     Serbs only gratitude.  I have no criticisms whatsoever of the treatment

20     in the receiving centre in Manjaca, where primarily members of the HVO

21     were accommodated.  They really treated us humanely."

22             Is this what you told the media about your treatment of the HVO

23     soldiers in Manjaca camp?

24        A.   When I answered a moment ago, I said that it happened at Galica

25     before Manjaca.  As for this interview, 22 years later, I really do not

Page 31007

 1     recall it.  However, in essence, it was so.  I don't recall any

 2     interviews with Mr. Dubocanin, but there were many journalist crews at

 3     Manjaca and they all wanted a statement.  Hence, I was unable to memorize

 4     the journalists or soldiers who wanted statements.

 5             In general, though, I can tell you now that as far as the

 6     treatment in the reception centre in Manjaca is concerned, it was

 7     correct.  It was fair.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to go back to your 1993 statement to the SIS in

 9     which you also talk about your treatment in the Manjaca camp.

10             MR. BOS:  So could the Prosecution please again have 65 ter 31926

11     on the screen.  And this time I would like page 9 of this document of

12     both the English and the B/C/S version.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask again that the Croatian

14     version be enlarged.  I can follow it in English, but my mother tongue,

15     of course, comes more naturally, and I say this in order to avoid any

16     mistakes.

17             MR. BOS:

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, I hope we'll -- we'll [indiscernible] a bit and I'll

19     read out the parts so that -- but hopefully is this big enough?

20        A.   Thank you.

21        Q.   I'd like to refer you --

22        A.   Yes, it's fine.

23        Q.   I'd like to refer you to the top of page 9 where it reads in:

24             "In the meantime on 9 June 1992, we organised cleaning and we

25     made latrines."

Page 31008

 1             Now this sentence corresponds with paragraph 43 of your present

 2     statement, but then the 1993 SIS statement continues and I'll read that

 3     out:

 4             "We were not eating anything at all from the time we set off to

 5     Kalesija until 10 June 1993.  On 10 June 1993, we got the first meal

 6     which was a piece of bread and a bit of patty.  On 11 June 1993 food from

 7     the regional office of Caritas in Banja Luka arrived, and almost all of

 8     us got diarrhea due to the milk from that shipment."

 9             If we continue reading this part of your SIS statement, we get to

10     a sentence that is found back again in paragraph 44 of your present

11     statement and reads:

12             "The journalists came twice more and told us that the civilians

13     were transferred to Croatia through Novsk."

14             Your SIS statement then continues with a couple of

15     paragraphs that were again not found back in your present statement, and

16     I'll read them out again:

17             "On 11 June 1993, the TV crew of the Serb army came and

18     maltreated us the whole day, requesting us to shout together:  'Bosnia is

19     Serbian as much as Moscow is Russian.  We are the war prisoners of the

20     Army of the Republic of Srpska.  We are the HVO soldiers.'  I officially

21     protested against that maltreatment and the words we had to shout.  I

22     informed all the soldiers about it and they supported it."

23             Now, Mr. Kolenda, when you say:  "I informed all the soldiers

24     about it and they supported it," which soldiers are you referring to?

25        A.   All the soldiers, conditionally speaking, of approximately 882,

Page 31009

 1     as far as I can remember, and those men had arrived in the Manjaca

 2     collection centre.  Some 500 had been members of the HV units and the HV

 3     police.  The others were of military age, between the ages of 18 and 50,

 4     but they had not all been soldiers before.  We were accommodated in two

 5     barns, some 450 in one and some 450 in the other.  Those barns had their

 6     commanders.  We were told that we should arrange our own life within the

 7     collection centre and that the Army of Republika Srpska would guard us.

 8             The barns had its two commanders, and then those commanders

 9     decided that I would communicate with the soldiers of the VRS and

10     represent all the inmates.  So I went to both of the barns, and together

11     with their commanders, I informed them that I had lodged a protest as a

12     result of the ill-treatment that lasted all day.  I personally believe

13     that it was not in accordance with any international rules and

14     regulations.  Well, I could have understood that they needed some sort of

15     propaganda.

16        Q.   All right.  And if you say that HVO soldiers supported your

17     protest, does that mean that they all felt humiliated by the treatment of

18     the VRS TV crew?

19        A.   When somebody leaves you outside at a temperature of over

20     30 degrees centigrade and when you're asked to give a statement and say

21     that Bosnia is Serbian as much as Moscow is Russian and when you go on

22     repeating that so that you may be recorded from all the different angles,

23     obviously it is humiliating.  We were not real prisoners, as a matter of

24     fact.  We came to seek assistance there.  We hadn't been captured in a

25     proper military way.

Page 31010

 1             MR. BOS:  At this stage, I would like to tender Mr. Kolenda's SIS

 2     witness statement under Rule 65 ter number 31926.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31926 receives Exhibit Number P7092

 5     [Realtime transcript read in error "P7192"], Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. BOS:  And I would also like to tender the press release under

 8     65 ter 31928.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31928 receives Exhibit Number P7093,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7093 is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Bos, I think we are at the time to --

14             MR. BOS:  Yeah --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to adjourn.

16             MR. BOS:  If I can make just one correction on the transcript

17     because the transcript of the first -- the first exhibit reads "P7192"

18     and it should read "P7092."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That is hereby corrected.  Yes, there's more wrong.

20     I think that the words are spoken by Madam Registrar and not by myself so

21     that has to be reviewed, that line, anyhow.

22             Mr. Kolenda, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you

23     back tomorrow morning at 9.30, but before you leave this courtroom, I

24     would instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever

25     way with whomever it may be about your testimony, that is testimony given

Page 31011

 1     today or testimony still to be given tomorrow.  If that is clear to you,

 2     you may follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

 6     Tuesday, the 3rd of February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 7     courtroom, I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

10                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.