Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31012

 1                           Tuesday, 3 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 9     case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Before we start with everything else, just to place on the record

12     that Judge Orie is not able to sit with us for urgent personal matters,

13     and Judge Fluegge and I have agreed that it is in the interests of

14     justice to carry on with the case without his presence.

15             We have been told that the Defence has a preliminary matter to

16     raise.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31013

 1   (redacted)

 2             May the witness please be brought into court.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. Kolenda.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] My mike was not

 7     switched on.  I will repeat myself.

 8             Good morning, Mr. Kolenda.

 9             Mr. Kolenda, just to remind you that you're still bound by the

10     declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

11     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Mr. Bos.

15             MR. BOS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.

17                           WITNESS:  DAVOR KOLENDA [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bos: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kolenda.

21             Mr. Kolenda, I want to take you to paragraph 40 of your statement

22     in which you explain that in the morning of 8 June 1993 all the Bosnian

23     Croat men were separated from the civilians and that everybody's personal

24     details were recorded.  Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31014

 1        Q.   And is it also correct, but unmentioned in your statement, that

 2     those people who had fled the area using a vehicle were ordered to hand

 3     in their vehicles?

 4        A.   No.  I don't recall having said that.  The civilians for the most

 5     part remained in the vehicles.  Some people arrived in Galica in their

 6     own vehicles, others came by buses and trucks owned by socially owned

 7     enterprises, whereas yet another group came on foot.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me take you back to your SIS statement, which we

 9     looked at yesterday and which is Exhibit P7092.

10             MR. BOS:  And if we could have that on the screen, please.  And I

11     would like to look at page number 8 of that statement for both the B/C/S

12     and the English version.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could the version in Croatian be

14     enlarged, please.

15             MR. BOS:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Kolenda, I would like to refer you to a sentence which

17     is in your -- from the top, somewhere around line number 11, and I'll

18     read out that sentence as well -- well, maybe the sentence before as

19     well.  It reads as follows:

20             "On 8 June 1993 at 8.00 all men from 50 to 60 years of age were

21     requested to come.  They were separated from the civilians and their data

22     were taken.  At the same time, all socially owned vehicles and better,"

23     as stated, probably refers to better quality, "better private vehicles

24     were also confiscated."

25             So is this --

Page 31015

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Namely, the buses we came in were socially

 2     owned, and I think even a fire truck was commandeered.  When I said

 3     private vehicle, I had in mind one vehicle specifically whose owner

 4     complained to me.  He had bought a stolen off-road vehicle and did not

 5     have appropriate documentation for it, I think it was some kind of jeep,

 6     and the gentleman's last name was Paklarcic.  In the end, the vehicle was

 7     seized.

 8        Q.   So you're saying that these -- but you're saying that these

 9     socially -- these buses and the fire trucks, those vehicles were

10     confiscated?  Is that how I understand your answer?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  And who confiscated these vehicles?

13        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Now, sir, as you stated yesterday, you initially tried to get the

15     help from UNPROFOR in the evacuation of the Bosnian Croat civilians from

16     Travnik but they refused to assist.  In paragraph 25 of your statement,

17     you said that UNPROFOR refused because they did not want to take part in

18     ethnic cleansing.  Is that correct?  Was that the reason why they didn't

19     want to help?

20        A.   I provided this statement -- part of the statement based on the

21     information given to me by Mr. Bilandzija and Mr. Leutar because the two

22     of them participated directly in talks with UNPROFOR.  They asked that

23     the civilians and the wounded be removed from the western part of Travnik

24     to the eastern part in Nova Bila where a hospital was located; however,

25     UNPROFOR refused, justifying it by saying that they would be committing

Page 31016

 1     ethnic cleansing.

 2             However, in another instance, he did exactly the opposite.  When

 3     the Muslim forces in the village of Guca Gora in Travnik surrounded Croat

 4     civilians who were in a monastery, for the first time in that war

 5     UNPROFOR opened fire at the Muslim forces in order to protect the

 6     Croatian civilians.  Then UNPROFOR had them evacuated to the area of

 7     Nova Bila.

 8        Q.   When you then tried to obtain the assistance of the Serb

 9     counterparts when UNPROFOR didn't want to help in the evacuation of the

10     Bosnian Croat civilians, is it correct that they -- that the Serbs first

11     wanted to consult with their superiors before anything could be agreed

12     upon?

13        A.   No.  Because they immediately said as far as civilians and the

14     wounded are concerned that there were no problems.  They also included

15     children.  However, they said that there might be problems with

16     conscripts and military-aged men, the fighters and policemen who were in

17     greater numbers.  In that case, they would have to consult the corps

18     concerning our requests in terms of some military issues such as weapons

19     and ammunition.

20        Q.   Very well.

21             MR. BOS:  Could the Prosecution have P3683 on the screen, please.

22     P03683.

23        Q.   Now, sir, it's appearing on the screen, and I hope it's big

24     enough for you to read.  This is an order from General Mladic addressed

25     to the 1st Krajina Corps and it's dated 7th of June, 1993, and in this

Page 31017

 1     order he gives instructions on the treatment of the HVO members and the

 2     Croatian civilian population in Travnik.

 3             Now, if we look at the paragraph under number 1, I'll read that

 4     paragraph out, it reads:

 5             "With the engagement of the MKCK," which seems to be the Bosnian

 6     Serb acronym for International Committee of the Red Cross, "an adequate

 7     number of motor vehicles, also to be regulated through the MKCK, drive

 8     the civilian population and persons not fit for combat to the sector of

 9     Novska in Croatian territory."

10             Sir, were you aware that the evacuation of the Bosnian Croats

11     from Travnik, which UNPROFOR did not want to participate in as they

12     considered it ethnic cleansing, was eventually ordered by General Mladic?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And can you tell us approximately how many Bosnian Croat

15     civilians from Travnik were evacuated to Novska in the Republic of

16     Croatia?

17        A.   If we are going about it in a mathematical way, there were

18     between 4- and 5.000 civilians in front of the church and another 1.000

19     people who were military conscripts, so let's say 5- to 6.000.  However,

20     during the evacuation more people came in from different areas.  In any

21     case, I think there may have been between 5- and 6.000 people who went

22     from west Travnik to the area of Vlasic.  Some 880 of them were military

23     conscripts.  There were military-aged men who were taken to Manjaca which

24     would leave between five- and five-and-a-half-thousand people who were

25     supposed to be transported to Novska.

Page 31018

 1        Q.   And do you know, when these civilians who ended up in Novska,

 2     where they eventually ended up?

 3        A.   I heard about it because I was at Manjaca there.  When the

 4     journalists came to Manjaca on the 10th to see what the conditions of

 5     accommodation and our stay there were, a Spanish lady journalist when

 6     interviewing me told me that she was happy to be able to tell me that the

 7     civilians had already been evacuated from the Vlasic plateau via Novska

 8     to Croatia.  According to something I learned later, a part of them ended

 9     up in southern Herzegovina in the area of Ljubusko and Capljina, whereas

10     another group ended up in Croatia in the area of Orebic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If we can look now in the same documents under item

12     number 5, I think you have it on the screen but maybe the English version

13     can -- can move to the next page, and I will read that paragraph out to

14     you as well.  Paragraph 5 reads:

15             "As soon as possible take over all the positions that were held

16     by the HVO members that are tactically good for us and help ameliorate

17     our position on the front because we have intelligence that the Muslim

18     sides intends to do the same."

19             Sir, is it not true that the VRS did not assist the HVO out of

20     altruistic motives but that the VRS effectively ameliorated their

21     military positions on the front lines in Central Bosnia by their

22     assistance?

23        A.   It is very difficult to respond to that question about what the

24     VRS and its command had in mind.  I don't know that.  How -- obviously

25     they had an interest.  Now, as for what kind of interest it was, whether

Page 31019

 1     it was tackle positions or promoting an image of being based -- of their

 2     actions being based on humanitarian grounds, that's something I cannot

 3     comment.

 4        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you another document.

 5             MR. BOS:  Could the Prosecution have --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] I just want to ask,

 7     sir, do you know what became of the 880 prisoners that went to Manjaca?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, I was one of them.  We

 9     were put in groups and taken from the area of Vlasic onboard trucks to

10     Manjaca.  Once there, we were placed in a collection centre in two rooms.

11     Before the war, they had been stables for cattle.  We had them cleaned up

12     and organised things for the best way -- the best life possible.  We

13     constructed wooden toilets, we cleaned up the area, and we spent between

14     three and four days.  At the outset, we didn't know how long we would

15     need to stay there.  We were surrounded by the military police of the VRS

16     who stood guard in the outer parameter beyond the fence and occasionally

17     their patrols came in to check our situation.  We received regular meals,

18     provided by the Caritas and the VRS, at least to the amount that was

19     necessary for normal life.

20             We were all exchanged and we left Manjaca for Sokolac.  In the

21     village of Brgule we were exchanged.  It is in the area of Vares.  I have

22     to say that our weapons followed us, without ammunition, though.  As I

23     could see later from the documents of the HVO military intelligence

24     service, it had been agreed at the level of commands.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Finally, how long did you stay at Manjaca for?

Page 31020

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three and a half or four days.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.  Thank you very much.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the 8th and the 12th of

 4     November.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Bos.

 7             MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Could we have 65 ter 00925 on the screen, please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             MR. BOS:

11        Q.   Now, sir, what we have in front of us now is an another order

12     from General Mladic issued a few weeks later on the 24th of June, 1993,

13     and it's addressed to the various VRS corps commands.  In this order

14     General Mladic, based on his experience with the evacuation of the

15     operation in Travnik, he discusses VRS co-operation with the HVO and

16     gives some very specific instructions to his corps commands on how to

17     approach such co-operation.

18             Before giving his instructions, General Mladic first makes some

19     general remarks about the Croats and Muslims, and I'd like to read out

20     his comments to you.  Starting from the last part of the fourth

21     paragraph, General Mladic says:

22             "The Croats have gone from being Muslim allies to being their

23     enemy and are now just trying to save their own population via

24     Republika Srpska.  They are counting on their success in the belief that

25     we Serbs are gullible, a view based on historical experience.

Page 31021

 1             "In all future talks with Muslims and Croat, consider the

 2     following.

 3             "Croats and Muslims have never fought for Yugoslavia, except

 4     episodically.  And after wars, they have always devoted themselves to the

 5     destruction of Yugoslavia.

 6             "(B) In both previous wars they are on the side of the aggressor,

 7     and in this war they are relying on extremist emigrants.  Pro-Germanic

 8     countries and Islamic countries have embarked on the breakup of

 9     Yugoslavia and Serbdom which has been made possible by the internal decay

10     of the political and military establishment of the former SFRY.  The goal

11     of Croats and Muslims is not a union with us tomorrow --"

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Bos, you should slow down while reading.

13             MR. BOS:  I'm sorry.  My excuse.

14             "The goal of Croats and Muslims is not a union with us tomorrow,

15     but to use cunning and international pressure to achieve the

16     establishment of a greater Croatia within its historical borders, or to

17     Islamise Bosnia and Herzegovina."

18        Q.   Sir, again, is it not true that the ERS and the VRS leadership

19     acted very much in their own interests when think agreed to co-operate

20     with the HVO and that there were no altruistic motives whatsoever?

21        A.   Absolutely.  The statement you read out may be a personal opinion

22     on the part of General Mladic, but it is based on historical facts.  Let

23     me remind you that the first person who launched resistance in the former

24     Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito, who was a Croat.  Many Croats and Muslims

25     were killed fighting for the anti-fascist coalition, much the same way as

Page 31022

 1     there were many Serbs who fought for the Axis forces.  As for his opinion

 2     about the destruction of Yugoslavia, that's his own view.

 3             In terms of whether they worked in the interests of Yugoslavia,

 4     absolutely so.  There would not have been any conflict between the

 5     Muslims and Croats in Travnik had there not been for the VRS which, from

 6     Bosanska Krajina, kept sending civilians via Vlasic and ending up with

 7     the figure of 17.600.  Of course, it was one of the reasons which

 8     contributed to the conflict of Muslims and Croats in Travnik.

 9             According to the laws of physics, the chain breaks at its weakest

10     link, the weakest link being the Croatian locations in Central Bosnia.

11     When the Muslims could no longer oppose the Serbs militarily, they turned

12     on Croats when fighting for territory.

13        Q.   Sir, I want to draw your attention to another paragraph here in

14     this document which is -- it's -- it's the second-but-last paragraph of

15     this document.

16             MR. BOS:  So if we can move to the -- to the next page of this

17     order.

18        Q.   And I'll read out again this paragraph to you.  It's --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do so, may I ask you what the term

20     "ERS" means, which you used on line 25, page 9.

21             MR. BOS:  Oh did I -- I meant "RS", the Republika Srpska, rather

22     than ERS.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

24             MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  So if we can move to the last

25     page of this document.  It's on page 3 in the English version and also

Page 31023

 1     page 3 on the B/C/S version.

 2        Q.   And I'll read out -- this is paragraph which starts:  "Members of

 3     the 1st KK."

 4             "Members of the 1st KK and the 1st KK command deserve great

 5     credit for the results achieved so far.  In respect of the above noted

 6     matters relating to the evacuation of the Croats from Travnik, the

 7     international public took this as the biggest Croatian defeat in this war

 8     and so the total downfall of Croats and the defeat of the Muslims should

 9     be effected along those lines."

10             Sir, did you realise that when the VRS offered their assistance

11     in the evacuation of the Bosnian Croats from Travnik, General Mladic's

12     primary intention was the total downfall of the Croats?

13        A.   In the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were at least three

14     warring parties, even if we take into account the war between Muslims and

15     Muslims.  Of course, every party wanted to militarily defeat the other

16     side completely and there's nothing in dispute there.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. BOS:  I'd like to tender 65 ter 00925 into evidence, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 00925 receives Exhibit P7094,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Yes, Mr. Bos.

24             The document is admitted into evidence and it's been given a

25     number, so P7094.

Page 31024

 1             MR. BOS:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kolenda, did you know that a number of Bosnian Croat

 3     civilians who fled the Serb-controlled areas in Travnik in 1993 became

 4     part of an exchange agreement by which Serb civilians from Livno and

 5     Tomislavgrad were to be released by the HVO?  Are you aware of that?

 6        A.   I learned that when I was exchanged in Baras.  At the command of

 7     the brigade there, I saw a document signed by the chief of the

 8     intelligence and security, Mr. Kesa Ratko, and I believe already on the

 9     8th of September an agreement had been reached and our fate had been

10     decided even as we arrived at Manjaca, although we didn't know it then.

11     I later learned about it by looking at documents that had been sent out.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at two of these documents which talk

13     about this exchange agreement and let's see if we talk about the same

14     agreement here.

15             MR. BOS:  Could I have 65 ter 31929 on the screen, please.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The previous date

17     was not 8th September but the 8th or 9th November.

18             MR. BOS:  Maybe just to clarify the date which the interpreter

19     has just...

20        Q.   When you were talking about earlier that your fate had been

21     decided upon, you mentioned the date of 8th September.  Is that the

22     date -- or 8 November?  Which exact date were you --

23        A.   No, it was in June or in July, when we had already been

24     transported to Manjaca.  Not September.  In September, I was already in

25     Kiseljak.  It was the 8th of June.  I think.  I think.  Take it with a

Page 31025

 1     grain of salt.  It was 22 years ago.  My memory is not as fresh as it

 2     used to be.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, that makes sense, 8 of June.

 4             Sir, we're now looking at a document which is an HVO intelligence

 5     report dated the 19th of June, 1993, and under the heading "Tomislavgrad

 6     Sector," the second paragraph reads:

 7             "At the negotiations in Celebic, representatives of the Serb side

 8     offered 1789 civilians from the Lasva area for exchange, 500 of them

 9     children, 471 men eligible for military services [sic] which the Serbs

10     deemed to be HVO soldiers, and 29 wounded HVO members who are located in

11     hospital in Banja Luka.  In return, they are seeking that all civilians

12     of Serb ethnicity from Rascani (outside Tomislavgrad) and the Livno

13     municipality, as well as Soldier RS who strayed onto our territory, and

14     two other SRNA, Bosnian Serb radio and news agency journalists, who were

15     taken prisoner near the Peruca dam be released."

16             Sir is this the exchange agreements which you have been referring

17     to as well?

18        A.   I don't think so.  I believe this is about an exchange of people

19     after we were exchanged.  Because we later reached the territory

20     controlled by the VRS from Novi Travnik.

21        Q.   Yes, I'm not talking about the exchange that you have may have

22     been involved, but I'm talking here about Bosnian Croat civilians who --

23     yeah, who have -- who have -- who were moved to Croatia, this group of

24     1.789 civilians.

25             Let me look -- let's look at one other document on -- on this

Page 31026

 1     particular exchange.

 2             MR. BOS:  And could the Registry bring up 65 ter 31930.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, here on the screen, we see, this is an order signed by

 4     HVO President Jadranko Prlic and co-signed by the head of the defence

 5     department Bruno Stojicic and the head of the department of internal

 6     affairs, Branko Kvesic.  The order is addressed to the HVO Livno and

 7     Tomislavgrad, and it's dated the 26th of June 1993, a week later from

 8     that first report we saw.

 9             Now, in this order we can see that the HVO actually complied with

10     the proposed exchange agreement, as they ordered the HVO authorities in

11     Livno and Tomislavgrad, and I read it out:  "With regards to the

12     agreement on exchange of detainees and release of civilians ... to ensure

13     an unobstructed departure of all members of Serbian people from the areas

14     of these municipality [sic] (this pertains to those who wish to do so) to

15     the territory under Serb control."

16             Sir, would you agree with me that through this order the HVO

17     actually complied with their part of the exchange agreement?

18        A.   Again, I can't comment on this agreement because I still believe

19     that it's an agreement that concerns refugees from the Novi Travnik area,

20     perhaps even Bugojno at this time, after our withdrawal from Travnik.

21     Very soon after, part of the HVO forces and civilians from Travnik also

22     left, and even those from Bugojno.  I believe there was not one integral

23     agreement.  At this time, all the civilians and conscripts from the area

24     of Travnik had already been exchanged.  I don't think there was agreement

25     on this issue because after that document signed by the military and

Page 31027

 1     intelligence security chief Mr. Pjesa or Kesa, there must have been

 2     something else.  But what agreement and at what level, I don't know.

 3             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 65 ter 31929 and 31930

 4     into evidence.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31929 receives Exhibit P7095,

 7     Your Honours.  Document 31930 receives Exhibit P7096, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Both 31929 is admitted into evidence under that

 9     number, and 31930 is also admitted as P7096.  Thank you so much.

10             MR. BOS:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Kolenda, I want to continue talking about the VRS motive

12     for assisting the HVO evacuation.

13             Did you know that the HVO actually had to pay for the VRS

14     assistance in the evacuation of the Bosnian Croats from Travnik?

15             Mr. BOS:  And let me ask the Registry to bring up

16     Rule 65 ter 00995.

17             I think I've -- the correct reference should have been 955,

18     rather than 995.  I'm sorry.  So it's 65 ter 955.

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought the form that was earlier on --

21             MR. BOS:  Yeah.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- the screen was correct --

23             MR. BOS:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- in the English version.

25             MR. BOS:  Yes.

Page 31028

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now it has disappeared.

 2             MR. BOS:  No, it's -- I think the correct number was 995.  My

 3     apologies.  I think ... so we'll have to get back to 995.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, we're looking at here at a -- another communication

 5     from General Mladic, and I hope you can read it.  It's -- the B/C/S

 6     version is not very clear.  I don't know if we need to enlarge it, but

 7     let me read out to you the first paragraph of this communication.

 8             MR. BOS:  No, I'm ... this is not the correct document.  No, it

 9     is, I'm sorry.  It is.

10        Q.   Starting in the first paragraph, the second line, and I'll read

11     it out:

12             "The HVO will deliver you a package in which there should be

13     1 million, 500.000 deutschemark or other hard currency in the same

14     quantity.  The money is meant for paying food supply and other services

15     related to the transportation of the Croatian civilians from the

16     Central Bosnia, Travnik, and Vares region (food, fuel, transportation,

17     cigarettes and such)."

18             Sir, were you aware that the HVO paid money to cover the cost of

19     the VRS assistance in the evacuation of the Bosnian Croat civilians in

20     June 1993?

21        A.   No.

22             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I'd like to admit 65 ter 00995 into

23     evidence -- tender into evidence, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 00995 receives Exhibit P7097, Your

Page 31029

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted as P7097.  Thank you so

 3     much.

 4             MR. BOS:

 5        Q.   Finally, Mr. Kolenda, is it correct that after the fall of

 6     Travnik the VRS and the HVO continued to co-operate in the war against

 7     the ABiH in Central Bosnia in the summer and autumn of 1993?

 8        A.   If you mean the area of the Lasva valley, then, no, because they

 9     had no points of contact.  In the area of Kiseljak and Zepca area, they

10     did have a close co-operation.

11        Q.   Okay, yeah.  And isn't it true that the VRS used the HVO army to

12     their advantage in military operations against the ABiH forces who often

13     had many more soldiers?

14        A.   It's very difficult to say anything about this.  In the case of

15     the Travnik conflict, a couple of times they gave us artillery support at

16     the request of our brigade command.  As for close military co-operation,

17     I wouldn't know about that.

18        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you one more document, which is

19     65 ter 00984.

20             Now, sir, this is a document -- this document is a report from

21     the HVO Kiseljak Brigade and it's addressed to the HVO Main Staff and

22     it's dated the 6th of July 1993, and it talks about HVO's contact and

23     further co-operation with the XY side which, from the context of this

24     document, seems to be a reference to the Serb side.  Would you agree with

25     me on that?

Page 31030

 1        A.   I can't comment because in that period I had only just arrived in

 2     Kiseljak and I was not at the brigade command.  I was at the police

 3     command.  But that there was close co-operation between these two sides

 4     in the exchange of goods such as oil, fuel, and ammunition, I saw that

 5     for myself.  Only on the 4th of December was I appointed legal advisor in

 6     the Josip Jelacic Brigade.  I don't know what happened before that, but

 7     as a deputy police commander I had my own area of responsibility

 8     vis-à-vis the Muslims in the area of Tarcin; that is to say, facing the

 9     Tarcin area.

10        Q.   Now, sir, in this document HVO Kiseljak reports on the outcome of

11     a meeting organised by the VRS in which delivery of VRS equipment and

12     artillery support was discussed.  And as we can see in paragraph 1, there

13     is a Serb proposal for a meeting between the HVO General Petkovic and

14     General Mladic.  And in the information under item 2 reads, and I'll read

15     that out to you:

16             "That our total unpaid debt, according to their calculation,

17     delivered equipment and artillery support - amounts to 5.700.000 and that

18     General Mladic has all the information about that.  I do not know exactly

19     how they explain this large sum of money but for your information we have

20     enclosed the specification of all equipment that has been taken over and

21     the invoices for the deposited money that we gave to them, and you also

22     received the price list, which they offered to us."

23             Now the report then continues to talk about equipment and

24     artillery that the HVO Kiseljak Brigade is still in need of.  And if we

25     can then maybe move to the next page of this document, we see under -- in

Page 31031

 1     the bottom under "attachment" there's a list of -- of -- of equipment.

 2     It starts with 6.9-millimetre bullets.  Quantity, 4.099, 500, and so on.

 3     And then --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic, are you not allowed to talk aloud in

 5     court.  You do know that.

 6             Sorry, Mr. Bos.  You said it starts with 6.9.  I'm trying to look

 7     for 6.9.  I can't see it anywhere.

 8             MR. BOS:  Yeah, apologies.  It's 7.9.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MR. BOS:  I misread it.

11        Q.   So there is a whole list of equipment and if we can then -- and

12     artillery.

13             MR. BOS:  And if we could then move to the last page of this

14     document, where this list continues.

15        Q.   There we can read at the end, it reads:

16             "The HVO had already deposited a total amount of 1.191.246 in

17     cash and two D-2 fuel trucks with ten metric tonnes of fuel each."

18             Sir, were you aware that the equipment and artillery support that

19     the VRS offered the HVO in their armed struggle against the ABiH in

20     Central Bosnia in the summer and autumn of 1993 came with a very serious

21     price tag for the HVO?

22        A.   I know nothing about this document, but I know what was going on

23     on the ground in this area.  When I came to the area of Kiseljak,

24     Krasulje, and Vojnica, I saw a weapon that we called Praga.  It's a

25     cannon with multiple barrels.  I'm not an expert.  But I know that

Page 31032

 1     stories went around that more than a million deutschemark had been paid

 2     to the Serbs for it.  As for trade, there was constant trade.  Serbs

 3     needed fuel and the Croats needed weapons and ammunition.  There were

 4     interest groups on both sides who easily found a common language.  You

 5     know what war is like.  Thieves and outlaws come to the surface and

 6     dominate, more or less.

 7             I know that medical assistance for one HVO soldier was once paid

 8     2.000 deutschemark.  Some of this money probably went into private

 9     pockets.  As for trade in fuel and weaponry, that went on throughout the

10     war, not only in Kiseljak.  It was also in Zepca, in any other area.  It

11     was not a war motivated by pure patriotism, let's say.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Kolenda.

13             MR. BOS:  Could I tender Exhibit 65 ter 00984 into evidence,

14     please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 00984 receives Exhibit P7098,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Admitted into evidence.

19             MR. BOS:  And this concludes my cross-examination, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Bos.

21             Mr. Lukic, any re-examination?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honours.  I have several questions.

23     I probably will need the break to consult with my client regarding at

24     least two documents.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want us to take a break now, preferably?

Page 31033

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll take an early break.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I, just for the record, clarify that --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic, please stop talking aloud.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for the record, three words are missing on

 6     the record, the words spoken by the Presiding Judge, "the document is

 7     received."

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted, yes.  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Lukic, you were saying something.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I would preferably take an early break.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kolenda, we're going to take a break for 20

14     minutes.  Would you please follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at quarter 20.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be escorted into the

21     courtroom.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 31034

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kolenda, yet again, on another

 2     day.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   I won't take long.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to page one of this

 6     document, please.

 7        Q.   When you discussed the payment for ammunition, which is not in

 8     dispute, I wanted to ask you whether, however, you knew anything specific

 9     about this document or about this operation?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did you know that General Petkovic met with General Mladic on the

12     7th of July, 1993?

13        A.   No.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Mr. Lukic mentioned the

15     name of a hotel in the question that we did not catch.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Plaza.  The name of the hotel is Plaza.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you mentioned the name which the

18     interpreters did not catch, the name of the hotel.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Is Hotel Plaza.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Hotel Plaza.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we next have P709, please.

22     Actually, 7093.

23             [In English] If we can enlarge B/C/S version, please.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] In this document, Mr. Kolenda, it is recorded

25     that you spoke with someone from Glas Srpski.  It was published on the

Page 31035

 1     15th of June, 1992.

 2             In the last paragraph, the first sentence reads:

 3             "The conflict between Muslims and Croats in Travnik has been

 4     going on for sometime.  It all began nine months ago with the murder of

 5     Ivica Stojak.  Although it is known who and how killed him, not even an

 6     investigation was launched."

 7             Mr. Kolenda, what was the ethnic background of the person who was

 8     killed?

 9        A.   He was a Croat and he used to command a HVO brigade in Travnik.

10        Q.   Who killed him?  What were you trying to insinuate?

11        A.   I wasn't insinuating.  What happened was that there was a

12     temporary check-point set up by Muslim forces.  They were commanded by a

13     certain Mr. Terzic.  From the check-point, fire was opened at the

14     delegation, including Mr. Stojak and Mr. Gaso.  Mr. Stojak was killed and

15     Mr. Gaso was seriously wounded.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Next you mentioned the number of refugees pumped into

17     Travnik.  You say there were four brigades of the ABiH in Travnik.  Was

18     one of those brigades established in Croatia?

19        A.   I don't know what formation it was, but in late 1992 there was a

20     unit that came from Croatia to Travnik.  It was headed by Colonel Alagic

21     and his assistant, Major Cuskic.  They had been trained and equipped in

22     Croatia and placed in the Travnik barracks.  It definitely created an

23     imbalance of forces in Travnik.  With the sending of the refugees from

24     the Vlasic plateau to Travnik, and the latest information I had at the

25     time in early June there were 17.600 of them, as that was happening, they

Page 31036

 1     were recruiting all military-aged men placing them in the barracks.  They

 2     used them to set up another two brigades, the Banja Luka or

 3     Krajina Brigade, something of the sort.  The Muslims in Travnik on top of

 4     those brigades had at least another two brigades comprising military-aged

 5     men who had been refugees from the Bosnian Krajina.  That put the ratio

 6     of 8:1 in favour of the Muslims, when compared to the HVO.  In a military

 7     sense, the western part of Travnik was lost even back then, and the

 8     conflict that erupted six or seven months later simply confirmed that

 9     fact.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The last page on -- the last sentence on this page

11     reads:

12             "Over the past two months, after they completed the expulsions of

13     Serbs at least 100 Croat families have been expelled from their homes in

14     Travnik."

15             Who was expelling the Serbs and Croats from Travnik?

16        A.   When there are over 17.000 refugees in Travnik itself, and even

17     more in Zenica and Bugojno and elsewhere, and as they were creating

18     brigades from those newly arrived conscripts, in the first half of 1993

19     they mainly waged war along the Sarajevo corridor trying to break

20     through.  I think that many were killed at the front lines in Cekrcici.

21     Such people would then return to Travnik wounded and traumatised, causing

22     incidents.  They wanted to find better accommodation for their families

23     to get them out of collection centres.  That is why they were much

24     pressure put on people occupying apartments in Travnik, especially on

25     Serb families.  There was constant pressure to have them moved out,

Page 31037

 1     expelled, in order to occupy their apartments and seize their property.

 2             As for the 100 Croat -- Croats referred here, it probably had to

 3     do with the people at the beginning of the conflict.  They were from the

 4     area where the Muslim forces had taken territory and they were then

 5     expelled to the western part of Travnik where our brigade had control.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kolenda, you have spoken now for the last

 7     three minutes.  The question to you was who expelled the Serbs and Croats

 8     from Travnik, and in all that long speech that you gave you haven't

 9     answered the question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims did.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That was the answer to the question.  That's all.

12     Not this whole paragraph that you told.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for your caution.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please control the witness, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Let us now focus on the day when you left

17     Travnik.  What happened with the HVO unit from the village of Bikosa?

18        A.   The village of Bikosa is actually a hamlet in the area of

19     Guca Gora and Malin.  After an attack by a Muslim brigade, some 20

20     fighters withdrew but the civilians were captured.  The soldiers were

21     then blackmailed with returning and surrendering so as not to see their

22     civilians killed.  When they surrendered, they put them in front of a

23     firing squad and killed 18 of them.  One managed to escape and join us at

24     Vlasic.  He lived to tell us the story.

25        Q.   Some people remained in the town itself, such as four ministers,

Page 31038

 1     Ivo Rajkovic, Ivo Fisic, the minister of trade, the local pastor, the

 2     Deputy Police Commander Popovic, and so on.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why do you lead, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  How --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We haven't heard about this evidence from this

 6     witness and you are telling it for the first time.  Don't even know

 7     whether it arises from cross-examination.  I don't know whether Mr. Bos

 8     can ...

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I would just then ask what happened with people who

10     stayed behind.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kolenda, what happened with the people who

12     remained in Travnik?

13        A.   Due to the way developments took place, we failed to evacuate

14     some Croats from Travnik.  We believe there were between

15     2-and-a-half- and 3.000, including a number of government officials from

16     the HVO and the Travnik government, including Minister Fisic and the late

17     Minister Rajkovic.  After a while, after they had to sweep streets and

18     after they were humiliated, they were kidnapped and taken to the village

19     of Mehoric.  My friend who was assistant commander of the war time

20     police - he was the second in command while I was the first in command -

21     well, in any case he was beheaded in a ritual, and the other captured had

22     to kiss that head.  After two or three months of beatings, following an

23     army intervention they were released or exchanged, and there is proof of

24     that in the book of my dear late friend, Professor Rajkovic.  It was

25     quite dramatic with a lot of horrifying incidents.

Page 31039

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Immediately prior to your departure from Travnik,

 2     your segment of the armed forces was the enemy of the VRS?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   En route and when accommodation was found for you through Serb

 5     territory, were any Croats killed?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   The civilians who reached Croatia, was it something they wanted

 8     themselves?  In other words, did you ask the Serb component to release

 9     the civilians in order to reach Croatia.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me.

12        Q.   As the Croatian component was withdrawing from Travnik, were the

13     Muslims trying to take up former Croatian positions?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let us look at P3683 briefly - you have been shown that document

16     before - from the Main Staff of the VRS dated the 7th of June, 1993.

17             This document describes the treatment of HVO members and Croatian

18     civilian population.  Does it mainly reflect what had previously been

19     agreed with -- agreed upon with the Serb side?  For example, item 1, it

20     says:  "Have the civilians transferred to Croatia to the area of Novska

21     with the assistance of the ICRC"?

22        A.   Yes.  One does need to say that it happened only after we had

23     been taken to Manjaca, but in any case the procedure was followed

24     through.

25        Q.   Item 2, it says that the persons fit for military service and HVO

Page 31040

 1     units' members should be accommodated at Manjaca.

 2             When were you told this; and did you agree to it?

 3        A.   It was not a matter of agreeing to it or not.  We could either

 4     stay or take it.  When we were in the area of Vlasic, in Galica, we were

 5     told that we would be transported to Manjaca after we were separated from

 6     the civilians.  It included the men who were of military age.  I have to

 7     say that not all of them were soldiers and policemen though.  It wasn't a

 8     matter of choice.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You said that some socially owned vehicles were

10     requisitioned.  Did you continue on foot or were you driven to Manjaca?

11        A.   Some military trucks arrived and the people were put on those

12     trucks; the men who were of military age.  That is how we were

13     transported.

14        Q.   Item 4 states:

15             "People in private vehicles with their private belongings should

16     be released as part of the ICRC convoy in order to leave our territory."

17             With the exception of the one seized vehicle, the jeep you

18     mentioned, did the rest continue their travel and join the ICRC convoy in

19     order to reach Croatia?

20        A.   I mentioned the one vehicle because I know about it.  The rest

21     continued.  I really don't know whether there were any other vehicles

22     that remained behind.  I was no longer in the area.  In any case, my

23     official vehicle reached Croatia without any problems.

24        Q.   On the next page in B/C/S, item 6 --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Item 6 is on the screen.

Page 31041

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- we also need the next page for the

 2     second part.  [In English] But we need the second part in English, so we

 3     need next page, and we need the next page in B/C/S as well.  Sorry.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] It says persons who are found through

 5     intelligence vetting to have committed crimes against the Serb population

 6     in the period up to the liberation of Jajce and the Vlasic plateau are to

 7     be separated and criminal proceedings instituted.  The question is was

 8     any separated from your group, or did the entire group arrive from

 9     Manjaca to Croat-controlled territory near Vares?

10        A.   While we were at Manjaca, one day the command of the VRS asked

11     that unit commanders in Manjaca be brought and interrogated.  I know

12     about this only from what they told me, because I was brought later.

13     None of them were abused, they were questioned as to who they were, which

14     rank they held, et cetera.  However, apart from 20 Serbs who were

15     able-bodied men of military age, there were 880 people who chose to stay

16     at Manjaca or later went to join the VRS or reunite with their families.

17     But among us - what I'm trying to say - were not only Croats, there were

18     some Serbs too.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Just one second, Your Honours.  I think I'm close to

20     the end.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kolenda, thank you very much for answering our questions.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             Nothing comes up, Mr. Bos?

Page 31042

 1             MR. BOS:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             Mr. Kolenda, this brings us to the conclusion of your testimony

 4     at the Tribunal.  Just to thank you very much for coming all the way to

 5     the Tribunal to come and give your evidence and to answer the questions

 6     asked by everybody.  You may now leave the courtroom and go home, but

 7     please travel well back home.  You may follow --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may follow the ...

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we call the next witness, there are a

12     few issues that we'd like to deal with.

13             The first one relates to the testimony of Vojislav Krsic, and

14     that relates to Exhibit P851.

15             On the 4th of December 2014 and during cross-examination of

16     Vojislav Krsic, an issue arose with the word "nationality" in the English

17     translation of Exhibit P851.  And this can be found at transcript pages

18     29315 and 29316.

19             On the 18th of December the Prosecution informed the Chamber via

20     e-mail that a revised English translation of Exhibit P851 had been

21     uploaded into e-court under doc ID 0129-3842-A-ET.

22             Does the Defence have any objection to this translation?

23             MR. LUKIC:  We -- can you replace it then.  We haven't checked it

24     yet, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll do that.  Then the Chamber hereby

Page 31043

 1     instructs the Registry to replace the current translation of P851 with

 2     the revised translation.  And if the Defence has any comments to make,

 3     they are welcome to do so later.

 4             The next issue relates to the remaining issue from the testimony

 5     of Cedo Sipovac and relates to Exhibits D767, D768, and D769.

 6             On the 12th of November, 2014, again during examination-in-chief

 7     of Cedo Sipovac, these exhibits - D767, D768, and D769 - were marked for

 8     identification pending translation.  At that time the Defence stated that

 9     another once would discuss these documents in more detail.  This can be

10     found at transcript page 28220.  On the 21st of January, 2015, the

11     Defence informed the Chamber via e-mail that the English translations

12     have been uploaded into e-court under the following document ID numbers:

13     ID 19-0739 for document D767.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  I said ID.  It's 1D.  It's 1D19-0739

16     for document D767.  1D19-0983 for document D768.  And 1D19-0997 for

17     document D769.  As the translation issues are resolved, the remaining

18     issue seems to be whether the Defence still wants to tender the three

19     documents through Witness Cedo Sipovac rather than through another

20     witness.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Since Cedo Sipovac testified about these documents,

22     Your Honour, we would tender through him as well, and we would probably

23     use with another witness.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             Is the Prosecution still saying that it has no objections?

Page 31044

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Actually -- actually, Your Honour, good morning.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  We'd communicated to the Defence by e-mail on

 4     January 22nd that we did object to them being introduced through

 5     Mr. Sipovac and had been expecting the Defence to use them with another

 6     witness as they'd said at the time and invited the Defence to discuss the

 7     matter with us in the same communication.  So we maintain our objection.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You maintain your objections.

 9             Well, Mr. Lukic, you've got then to decide are going to argue the

10     objection or are you going to tender these documents through another

11     witness later?  You make up your mind.  You don't have to answer now.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I'll then have your proposal to respond later.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

14             Good morning, Mr. Pasic.  I hope you are Mr. Pasic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to you, and I'm terribly sorry to

17     keep you waiting while we were attending to other matters.

18             Mr. Pasic, you -- can you please make the declaration that -- a

19     copy of which is handed to you before you make your testimony.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.  I solemnly declare that I

21     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR PASIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may now be seated.

25             Mr. Pasic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic -- by Mr. Lukic.

Page 31045

 1     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             MR. BOS:  If I may be excused from the courtroom.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused, Mr. Bos.

 6             MR. BOS:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who is replacing you?

 8             MR. BOS:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, are you sufficiently visible and can

10     you see us from that angle?

11             MR. TRALDI:  You're certainly sufficiently visible, Your Honour.

12     If I'm sufficiently visible to you, then I'm satisfied to be here.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pasic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I would first call Mr. Pasic's statement on our

19     screens.  It's 1D4766a.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] For the record, would you slowly tell us your

21     full name.

22        A.   Radomir Pasic.

23        Q.   Did you give a written statement to the Defence team of

24     Mr. Karadzic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31046

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll need paragraph 47 from this

 2     statement.  That's page 15 in B/C/S and 19 in English.

 3        Q.   In this paragraph, Mr. Pasic, you talk about the surrender of

 4     weapons and the deadline for surrendering them.  You told me the date of

 5     10 May was a mistake, that it should be 11th May.

 6        A.   Yes, I think it's a mistake.  I think the deadline was 10 May --

 7     sorry, 11 May.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 49 and paragraph 50, we should compare.  In the

 9     second paragraph of 49, in the second sentence, you say:

10             "I think there was no shelling whatsoever."

11             And in paragraph 50, the second passage, you say:

12             "But I've already said that there was no shelling except in some

13     places where there was resistance, and I believe that the weapon used was

14     of a lighter calibre, but there was no heavy artillery as far as I know."

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the English at that part says something

16     completely different.  It says:

17             "And I think that the weapon carried kind of shelling, but

18     heavily artillery as far as I every known did not exist."

19             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  In the Karadzic trial --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have to go to the next page in English.

21             MR. LUKIC:  English version is, I think, authoritative, since

22     they submitted English statements.  So I would then go with the English

23     version, whatever it says in English.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Whatever you do, can you also explain why

25     the witness keeps saying "I was explained," and in particular, in

Page 31047

 1     paragraph 47, he says:

 2             "I was explained that around the 9th of May, 1992, a Bosanski

 3     Novi Crisis Staff under Radomir Pasic," now, he is Radomir Pasic, "issued

 4     an ultimatum over Bosanski Novi."

 5             He either knows he issued it.  It cannot be explained to him, if

 6     he did it.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  But, Your Honour, obviously Karadzic's Defence had

 8     this habit to start explaining adjudicated facts with the -- since the

 9     adjudicated facts are different in our case, we redacted that adjudicated

10     fact.  So that's -- they also started with "I was explained."  They

11     wanted to say that the witness was introduced to adjudicated fact that he

12     was supposed to comment on.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Hmm.  I --

14             MR. LUKIC:  And we submitted Karadzic's statement, so we are now

15     stuck with the formations.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are indeed stuck.  Thank you so much.

17             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, but just in the interest of

19     accuracy.  I'm not certain what is intended by the expression that the

20     English versions are authoritative because the Karadzic Defence team

21     submitted those.  In fact, as the Court would be aware from the typical

22     practice involving most witnesses, but obviously not English-speaking

23     witnesses, the communication was in Serbian.  The witness often signed a

24     Serbian version which was translated into English.  If discrepancies

25     arose in that context, recourse was had to presumably both documents to

Page 31048

 1     make sure they adequately conformed, but I at least at this moment can't

 2     recall a point at which the -- the -- such a matter, if it arose, was

 3     resolved by asserting that the English version was authoritative if, in

 4     fact, it was the Serbian version which the witness could read and read

 5     only and which the witnesses had signed.  That, I don't think, would make

 6     particular sense in that context.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In fact, your very last sentence is the very

 8     important part.  This statement here, the version that is signed, is the

 9     B/C/S version.

10             MR. LUKIC:  In this case.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the English is not signed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  In this case, yes.  But we were informed by

13     Karadzic's Defence members that they would actually give usually English

14     version to witnesses to sign.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, sure.  It's -- the position you are taking,

16     that in this case --

17             MR. LUKIC:  In this case.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- the English version is authoritative, that's

19     not correct --

20             MR. LUKIC:  That's not correct, you're right.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- because that's not the one signed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I stand corrected.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You stand corrected.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  And I trust, of course, Mr. Tieger.  He was

25     part of Karadzic's trial.  I was not.

Page 31049

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether Mr. Tieger would be

 2     interested in testifying about things that happened in the Karadzic case,

 3     but in the -- and then again, of course, we have got Mr. Traldi here who

 4     is steering the Prosecution's ship.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I don't think that's -- I think that's giving me far

 6     too much credit, Your Honour.  But for this particular cross, it would be

 7     useful to have in English, if the Defence isn't considering the English

 8     version of that paragraph authoritative, it would be useful to have it

 9     corrected orally so that we have on the transcript or on the record in

10     some way, for those of us that don't read Serbian, what the witness's

11     evidence on that point is.  And I think it was the end of paragraph 50

12     that was at issue.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

14             So as you make corrections, can you attend to that?

15             MR. LUKIC:  I would ask, actually, the witness, so he tells us

16     what actually is correct.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So, Mr. Pasic, could you tell us today about what you know.  Was

20     there no shelling whatsoever; was there shelling from heavy weaponry; was

21     there shelling from lighter weaponry?  What is it that you know?

22        A.   Well, I don't want to go into the technical aspects.  I know what

23     statement I gave in the Serbian version, and I stand behind what I said,

24     never mind whether it was two, five, or ten years ago.  But I must say

25     there was a debate at that time as to the meaning of shelling.  I did

Page 31050

 1     serve in the army, and maybe I don't have an accurate definition of

 2     shelling, but I will repeat before this Court that there was no shelling,

 3     in my understanding of the word, for the simple reason that in that

 4     period the Territorial Defence, which was the only official military

 5     body, if I can put it that way, had no heavy artillery, and by "heavy

 6     artillery," I mean a large-calibre cannons, rocket systems, et cetera.

 7     The Territorial Defence had light infantry weapons, and I'm trying to be

 8     precise in my terminology.  In terms of artillery, they had mortars.

 9     Smaller ones.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I think you have explained

11     yourself.  Thank you very much.  You have explained yourself.

12             Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  And if we can have the last page of this document.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] On the screen before you, do you see the

17     signature, Mr. Pasic?  Do you recognise it?

18        A.   Yes, I do.  It's my signature.  5 July 2013; right?

19        Q.   Yes.  Is it the case that my colleagues from the Defence team of

20     Mr. Karadzic correctly wrote in this statement all that you've told them?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Taking into account the few corrections you made.

23        A.   Yes.  What I saw was completely accurate and identical to what I

24     said in Serbian.

25        Q.   Does this statement reflect the truth, to the best of your

Page 31051

 1     knowledge?

 2        A.   All that I said was the truth and for the purpose of getting at

 3     the truth, and I talked only about things I had direct knowledge of or

 4     was directly involved in.  So I gave my statement only about things that

 5     I remember and know about.  Maybe I've omitted certain things because I

 6     forgot them, but I remember and I know what I said in the statement.

 7        Q.   If I were to put you to the same questions today, would you

 8     answer the same, Mr. Pasic?

 9        A.   Most probably, yes.  It would not be the same word for word, but

10     substantially it would be the same.  I couldn't answer otherwise because

11     I know nothing else, nothing different.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We should now tendered Mr. Pasic's

14     statement, 1D4766a.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we can admit it, Mr. Lukic, you asked the

16     witness to explain paragraph 50 and he went on into a very long

17     explanation.

18             Can you, in very precise terms, telling us what must be changed,

19     if anything at all, in paragraph 50 as it stands, and if so, replaced

20     with what wording?  Just a short -- just that short part.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we get that part of the statement back on the

22     screen.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If the statement can be brought on the screen.

24     It's paragraph 50 of the witness's statement, which is 1D4766a.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  And I wouldn't actually change anything in

Page 31052

 1     paragraph 50.  I would change paragraph 59 [sic], when it says that there

 2     was no shelling at all.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the problem is when you read out

 4     paragraph 50 from the B/C/S, I told you it does not correspond with what

 5     we read on paragraph 50 in the English.  So you got to tell us what the

 6     correct thing is.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Then I would read that portion of paragraph 50 and

 8     ask the translators, if possible to translate it.  I will read slowly.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That is the last sentence of paragraph 50.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to the next page in English.  Thank

11     you.

12             Mr. Lukic, just to be very clear, you said on -- in line 11,

13     page 38:  "I would change paragraph 59, when it says there was no

14     shelling at all."

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you really refer to 59 or to 49.

17             MR. LUKIC:  49, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  49.

19             MR. LUKIC:  49.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Because were recorded as having said "59," but we

21     agree you mean 49?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC:  -- Your Honour.  Thank you.

25             I will read last two sentences in B/C/S so we don't miss

Page 31053

 1     anything, or maybe I should read the whole paragraph in B/C/S --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ... last sentence.  But

 3     if you want to read the last two sentences, by all means.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             [Interpretation] "So that this former TO Staff was reformulated

 6     into the Army of the Republika Srpska of Bosnia-Herzegovina" --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I stop you.  Which paragraph are you reading?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I'm reading paragraph 50, second paragraph from

 9     paragraph 50.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you starting the whole paragraph in the second

11     paragraph?

12             MR. LUKIC:  In last two sentences.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The word "reformulated"

14     here makes no sense in either Serbian or English.  We have difficulty.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "... but I've already said there had

18     been no shelling except in certain places where there had been

19     resistance, and I believe that this kind of shelling was from some light

20     weaponry; but, to the best of my knowledge, there was no heavy

21     artillery."

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  And we should change paragraph 49, one sentence in

24     the second paragraph of paragraph 49.  In the second line, there was a

25     sentence in English:

Page 31054

 1             "I think that there was no shelling."

 2             The same sentence we can find in B/C/S, and it should read:

 3             "I think there was only shelling from light" --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should read it in B/C/S.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 6             [Interpretation] "And I believe the shelling was only from

 7     infantry weapons, such as light mortars ..."

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, the problem now is that the witness

 9     attested to the text before it was changed by you now.  So perhaps you

10     can put one question to the witness if that -- all that covers -- his

11     attestation covers even the changes made now.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, following this correction, as I read

14     it out, the rest of your statement, was it accurately recorded to the

15     best of your knowledge?

16        A.   Everything recorded in my statement is truthful.  If this was a

17     point of dispute, perhaps it would be good for a military expert to

18     precisely define the concept of shelling.  I don't know whether I was

19     understood or if the interpreters correctly interpreted but --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you.  Mr. Pasic, can I ask you to

21     please listen carefully to the questions that are put to you.  Answer

22     that question and that question only.  We know that you've got lots to

23     tell us, but we don't have the time to listen to everything that you may

24     want to tell us.  So listen clearly and stop after answering the

25     question, okay?

Page 31055

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And, Mr. Lukic, you should reformulate your

 2     question:  Not referring to the rest of your statement but that portions

 3     in paragraph 49 and 50 you have changed or read in B/C/S.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, because of the attestation, I have to

 6     ask you this:  Paragraphs 49 and 50, are they now correctly entered in

 7     the statement, following the corrections we just made, yes or no?

 8        A.   I can't answer with a yes or no.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you can't answer request with a yes or no --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're obviously trying to confuse

11     me.  I don't know what your intent is.  I understand that you have to

12     time constraints, but have you to understand me.  I came here to tell the

13     truth.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, you came here to tell the truth, sir.  But

15     you didn't come here voluntarily, you were asked to come here.  And if

16     those who called you to come here have specific questions to put to you,

17     they don't want to listen to all the story that you want to tell, so you

18     are going to answer the questions that are put to you by those people,

19     that and that only.  Is that clear to you?  Because they are the people

20     who called you here and they know what they want from you.  You don't

21     know what they want from you, okay?

22             Put the question, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Pasic, please.  This is important to have your statement

25     admitted.  The way I read out the sentence from paragraph 49 which also

Page 31056

 1     corresponds with what is recorded in paragraph 50, does it reflect what

 2     you know?  If it doesn't, tell us, and we can continue correcting.

 3        A.   I don't see what's in dispute here.  I said that there was no

 4     shelling, and I specified in these paragraphs what I understood under the

 5     term "shelling."  I repeat, I'm not a military expert.  I need to repeat:

 6     If one understands shelling as using light weaponry, then there was

 7     shelling.  If not, then there was no shelling.  So in terms of

 8     terminology, I would like someone to define the concept of shelling to me

 9     in order to be able to answer.  I think I'm making myself clear.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, please control your witness.  Let him

11     answer the questions that you are putting.  Given the answer that he has

12     given, he's obviously refusing to attest to his statement and therefore

13     it cannot be admitted.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you understand what you are doing now?  Do you not want to

16     have your statement admitted?

17        A.   No, I am not withdrawing anything.  I'm simply trying to say that

18     I do stand by my statement.  I guess the translation was wrong.  I stand

19     by my statement.  Absolutely so.

20        Q.   Just one moment --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just -- let me just let you know something.

22     You know, we work on certain procedures in this place and you probably

23     may not have knowledge of how we work.  Now, Mr. Lukic is asking you a

24     question which needs to be answered "yes" or "no" if this statement of

25     yours must go into court.  And if you keep giving these explanations,

Page 31057

 1     that you are not a military expert, you are not answering the question

 2     that is being put to you, and that will result in your statement and your

 3     evidence not being taken into consideration in this case.

 4             So I ask you for the last time, on behalf of Mr. Lukic, do you

 5     accept -- do you confirm, rather, that the corrections made to

 6     paragraph 49 and paragraph 50 as read out to you correctly reflect your

 7     statement?  And you're going to answer me "yes" or "no."  Anything else,

 8     I'm going to stop you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- [Overlapping speakers].

13             MR. LUKIC:  I will redact his statement.  I will redact

14     paragraph 49.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He hasn't confirmed the statement, so it cannot be

16     admitted.  He's refusing to admit it -- he is refusing to confirm it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps there is a misunderstanding.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I understood the witness correctly, he

20     confirms that the B/C/S version is correct but there's a translation

21     issue.  We can't check that because if that is a translation issue, then

22     we need a new translation of the B/C/S.  But we don't know that, and

23     therefore at the moment the basis for admission is not clear.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 31058

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, can we make -- it has never happened to

 2     me.  I was being practicing in front of this Tribunal for 15 years and

 3     this is the first time that my witness is refusing to attest his own

 4     statement.  So can we --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So have we.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I have to maybe regroup myself, and can we have a

 7     ten-minute break.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ten-minute break.  Well, it's time for a normal

 9     break.  We'll take our normal break.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you may follow the usher.  We are going to

12     take a short break for 20 minutes.  We'll call you later.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We take a break and come back at ten past 12.00.

15             Court adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 11.49 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic -- I beg your pardon.  May the witness

19     please be called -- brought into the court.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I will try to reformulate once more, and we'll see.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll see.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 31059

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, let's try another time.

 2             The rest of the statement seems to be fine.  We need to see what

 3     happens with paragraph 49.  We found small differences between 49 and 50,

 4     and we have to reconcile these.  We left paragraph 50 as recorded in the

 5     Serbian language, or in the B/C/S.

 6             I will read out the disputed sentence in paragraph 49, and I have

 7     a new suggestion.  Perhaps then you can agree on the formulation.  I may

 8     have been insufficiently clear last time.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And just for the record to be clear, it's not a

10     disputed portion.  It's a correction to be made.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Correction to be made, yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He does think there is a dispute and there is no

13     dispute.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So I suggest the following correction:  I would leave the

16     sentence as is and add "forwards" in the B/C/S.  Please follow it on the

17     screen as well.

18        A.   Could you enlarge a bit?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Last paragraph on this B/C/S page.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kindly enlarge even further.  I

21     can't see.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps we can remove the English one because we

23     have it in a hard copy before us.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it now.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31060

 1        Q.   The second row of the last paragraph, it reads:

 2             "I also think that there was no shelling."

 3             The corrected version should be formulated as follows, if you

 4     agree:

 5             "And I think that there was no shelling from heavy artillery

 6     weapons."

 7        A.   I agree.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Following this correction, is the rest of

 9     paragraph 49 exactly what you want it to say in the first place?

10        A.   I agree.  I apologise if I created a problem.  That was not my

11     intention.

12        Q.   It's fine.  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, would it be proper now to offer this

14     statement into evidence?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's fine.  Has confirmed now the whole statement

16     as corrected?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The statement is admitted into evidence.  It is

19     1D4766a.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  1D04766a receives Exhibit D890, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I apologise if I caused problems for you, Mr. Pasic.

24        A.   I apologise to all of you as well.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 31061

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I won't have any questions for you at this moment.  I'm just

 3     going read out your summary statement.  I will thank you after that and

 4     you will then be cross-examined by the Prosecution.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  So I would read statement summary of Mr. Pasic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is very short one.

 8             Pasic, Radomir, in relevant period was president of the Crisis

 9     Staff in Bosanski Novi municipality.  He will testify on overall

10     situation in Bosanski Novi before and after conflict emerged.  He will

11     describe situation in the municipality during the first multi-party

12     elections and emerging of conflict between Serbs and Muslims.

13             He will testify on migration of population and reasons for

14     departure of the Muslim population from the municipality.  He will

15     explain political relations in the municipality in 1992 and relation

16     between Serb and Muslim politicians and their representatives.

17             Witness will testify on incidents occurred between Serbs and

18     Muslims in this municipality, contacts with UNPROFOR representatives, and

19     activities on UNPROFOR, as well as on existence of paramilitary units and

20     creation of Crisis Staff.

21             He will explain structure, organisation, and activity of

22     Crisis Staff in Bosanski Novi municipality, and he will also testify on

23     Croatian army shelling Bosanski Novi in 1991.

24             And that's the end of statement summary.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And you said you have no

Page 31062

 1     questions for the witness.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have anymore questions.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Can you hear me in a language you

 9     understand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And, sir, you've testified in the Karadzic and Krajisnik cases at

12     this Tribunal; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you tell the truth in those testimonies?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 2003;

17     right?

18        A.   I think that was the year.  In any case, it did take place,

19     although I'm not certain about the year.  There was an interview.

20        Q.   And did you also tell the truth in that interview, sir?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, you mention in paragraph 4 of your statement that in 1990

23     you became president of the Municipal Board of the Bosanski Novi SDS.

24     The Novi SDS was founded in late July of 1990; right?

25        A.   It was the initiating committee that was formed in July, and the

Page 31063

 1     rest followed in August 1991.

 2        Q.   When you say "an initiating committee," you're referring to a

 3     meeting of 50 to 100 people; right?

 4        A.   Approximately.  It took place in different locations in the

 5     municipality.

 6        Q.   And you were --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I interrupt you a little bit, Mr. Traldi.

 8     You're referring the witness to paragraph 4 of his statement.  Is that

 9     the statement he gave to the Prosecution or the statement he gave in

10     court here, this one that we've just admitted?  I'm looking at

11     paragraph 4 of the statement that we have.  It doesn't seem to talk about

12     what you're talking about.

13             MR. TRALDI:  What I'd said was that he mentioned in paragraph 4

14     that he held the post of president of the Municipal Board, and I do see

15     that at the end of paragraph 4.  And what I was inquiring was about

16     related topics, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.  I didn't see the second paragraph,

18     the little paragraph.  Thank you so much.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have another clarification.

20             You referred, Mr. Traldi, you referred to late July 1990.  In the

21     response, the witness said August 1991.

22             Which year is correct, 1990 or 1991?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  The multi-party system in

24     the former Yugoslavia came into being in 1990.  Perhaps there was a

25     mistake.  In any case, there were elections in 1990.  It's a matter of

Page 31064

 1     general knowledge in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Of course, I couldn't lie about

 2     that even if I wanted to.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not a question of lie but correctness of the

 4     transcript.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Just so we have it completely clear, sir, was it your evidence

 7     that this initiative committee was formed in late July 1990, then the

 8     actual founding session of the Bosanski Novi SDS took place in August of

 9     1990, is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And Velibor Ostojic from the republican-level SDS leadership

12     attended the founding session; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, the Municipal Board of the Bosanski Novi SDS was

15     implementing the goals and the politics of the republican-level

16     leadership of the SDS; right?

17        A.   We implemented the policy according to the statute of the SDS.

18        Q.   And so is that, yes, you implemented the goals and the policy of

19     the republican-level leadership in Bosanski Novi; right?

20        A.   No, it doesn't mean that.  Someone can order something willfully

21     but we wouldn't implement it if it was not in keeping with the statute of

22     the SDS.  There is an enormous difference.

23        Q.   Well, let's look just briefly at a portion of your OTP interview.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31937 and page 14, please.

25        Q.   Now towards the bottom of the page in the English, we see you're

Page 31065

 1     asked:

 2             "Is it fair to say that the policies and goals of the

 3     republic-level SDS leaders were the same policies and goals at the

 4     Bosanski Novi municipal SDS level?"

 5             And you answered:

 6             "Yes, of course, it's a normal thing, because the municipal

 7     level, the Municipal Board was actually implementing the, the goals and

 8     politics of the repub ... of the higher level."

 9             Now, do you stand by the truthfulness of that answer that you

10     gave in your OTP interview in 2003?

11        A.   I don't know if it was translated correctly, especially in view

12     of the fact that I cannot read the English language.  If you understand

13     my previous answer, the sense of it runs counter to what we can read

14     here.  I repeat:  Policy was being implemented according to the statute

15     of the SDS.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question, sir:  Who set out the policy

17     of the SDS at the republican level?  Or let me remove "at the republican

18     level."  Who set out the policy of the SDS?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were party organs, party

20     bodies, that were in charge of policy.  I understood the gentleman to ask

21     me about some individuals in the party, such as those in leadership

22     functions.  In any case, the party had its Main Board, there was an

23     Assembly of the SDS, and the Presidency of the party.  Those are the

24     bodies of the party that were supposed to create policy, to repeat, in

25     keeping with the statute of the SDS.

Page 31066

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that -- those assemblies were at the

 2     republican level?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some on the municipal

 6     level as well, but --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   And the Bosanski Novi SDS followed, didn't it, the policy that

10     was set out by the party organs and party bodies you just described?

11        A.   Yes.  I don't think there were any deviations or failures to

12     implement the chartered policy at that time.  For the most part, the

13     party organs were honoured.

14        Q.   Now, Bosanski Novi had a representative on the SDS Main Board

15     named Mile Grbic; right?

16        A.   I know he was in some period, but I can't tell you the dates

17     between which he was a member of the Main Board.  He was.

18        Q.   Now, when he served on the Main Board, one of his

19     responsibilities was to come back to Novi and inform the SDS there of

20     what had been decided at the Main Board; right?

21        A.   He lived in Bosanski Novi.

22        Q.   Yes.  He would attend meetings of the Main Board elsewhere;

23     right?

24        A.   Probably.  I can't be sure whether he attended all the meetings.

25        Q.   But you're quite sure he attended some of them, aren't you?

Page 31067

 1        A.   I'm not sure about anything, but I suppose he did.

 2        Q.   Well, let's see if we can refresh your recollection.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If we can have page 50 of the same interview.

 4        Q.   You're asked at the top about Mr. Grbic, and you confirmed he was

 5     a member of the Main Board.  And then you were asked:

 6             "Now, certainly a member of the Main Board of the SDS is going to

 7     come back and report to their various municipalities, to the SDS

 8     officials, about what happened at the meetings? "

 9             And you answered:

10             "Yes, they would definitely transmit the live information that

11     was on the agenda and they would inform us of ..."

12             And then you were asked:

13             "And it makes perfect sense in that there's only 57 deputies on

14     the Main Board that their responsibility then is to go back to their

15     municipalities and form, inform the rest of the SDS members about what

16     happened."

17             And you replied:

18             "Mostly it was so, although there were instances when some --

19     when sometimes some presidents of the Municipal Boards would attend in

20     addition to the members of the Main Staff," which I take to reflect

21     Main Board, "not all of them, not always, but sometimes that was up to

22     the assessment of the necessity."

23             Do you stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of that answer that

24     you gave in your OTP interview, as I've just read it out to you?

25        A.   Well, I don't think I said any different now.

Page 31068

 1        Q.   For the record, it's important that you answer yes or no.  Do you

 2     stand by the truthfulness and accuracy of the answers from your interview

 3     that I've just read back to you?

 4        A.   I don't know what this quotation is about.  Is there a question,

 5     or are you just noting something or making a statement?

 6        Q.   Sir, the question was, and this is the third time I've asked it

 7     now, whether what you said in your OTP interview that I quoted to you

 8     just now was truthful, yes or no?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And moving on from that topic, then, you mention you were

11     president of the Municipal Assembly in Bosanski Novi and president of the

12     Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff; right?

13        A.   Yes, in one time-period.

14        Q.   That's the time-period covered by your evidence in your

15     statement; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the chairman of the Executive Committee in Bosanski Novi

18     during that same period was also a SDS member, Nikola Omazic; right?

19        A.   Nikola Omazic, right.

20        Q.   Now, before we turn into detail to events in Bosanski Novi in

21     1992, I want to see if we agree on two points, and I'm going to ask you

22     to answer simply yes, you agree, or no, you don't.

23             First, are we in agreement that many thousands of Muslims left

24     Bosanski Novi during the war, including in the period May through July of

25     1992?

Page 31069

 1        A.   Yes, one part of the Muslim population left.

 2        Q.   Now, second, you refer to the damage or destruction of certain

 3     mosques in Bosanski Novi in your statement.  Are we agreed that all the

 4     mosques in Bosanski Novi were either seriously damaged or destroyed

 5     during the war?

 6        A.   Well, for the most part, they were damaged.  To what extent the

 7     damage was to the construction, I don't know, but they were damaged.

 8     Churches were damaged too.

 9        Q.   And we're agreed that's all of them that were damaged or

10     destroyed, even if you're not certain of the extent of the damage to each

11     specific one; right?  All of the mosques.

12        A.   I think so, but I can't be sure.  There were mosques in various

13     locations.  The mosques that were located in towns were damaged.  For the

14     rest, in the rural areas, I don't know that they were completely

15     destroyed or seriously damaged.  But they were damaged.  It's difficult

16     to assess to what extent.  Just as the churches were damaged.

17        Q.   Now -- and in this regard, you say in paragraph 43 of your

18     statement that the mosques were set on fire - the mosques described

19     there - by unknown perpetrators.  Is it right that you don't yourself

20     know who caused the damage or destruction of those mosques?

21        A.   Unfortunately, I don't know.  We had a great problem, as I

22     emphasised in my testimony and in my statement, with paramilitary groups

23     and individual paramilitaries, and we suspected that it was them who

24     committed these crimes.

25        Q.   Now, that's just a suspicion, of course, because you don't know

Page 31070

 1     the identities of the perpetrators yourself in your evidence; right?

 2        A.   I believe that's what I said in my written statement, that in

 3     most of the cases of damage done to public and private property, no

 4     action was taken by municipal or other authorities, and there was even no

 5     discussion about it, from which it follows that these cases of

 6     destruction and damage in Bosanski Novi were created were the

 7     responsibility, mainly, of these paramilitary formations, and I don't

 8     know exactly where these paramilitary groups came from, and I stand by

 9     that.  I don't know anything else.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's correct, sir.  But if you can listen again

11     to the question.  The question was not whether or not it was this

12     military -- paramilitaries who did it.  The question was it's only a

13     suspicion on your part that those were the perpetrators because you

14     yourself don't have any knowledge.  You would help just by just saying

15     "yes" or you say "no" or "I don't know."  Thank you so much.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, turning now to a slightly different topic and the lead-up to

18     the conflict.  In paragraph 7 of your statement, you assert that Muslims

19     were preparing for war.  Now, the Bosanski Novi TO under the command of

20     Mile Damjanovic was also acquiring additional weaponry in early 1992;

21     right?

22        A.   Mr. Damjanovic was the TO Staff commander and the TO Staff was a

23     legal institution and he worked within his remit.  As to how he obtained

24     weapons, I don't think he needed to procure weapons because the system of

25     Yugoslavia at that time was that there were arsenals of weaponry in the

Page 31071

 1     municipalities --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- under the control of Territorial Defence units and those

 4     weapons were light infantry weapons.

 5        Q.   -- I'm going to stop you there.  I understand that your answer is

 6     that you don't recall the Territorial Defence having acquired additional

 7     weapons.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 18367.

 9        Q.   And as it comes up, Mr. Damjanovic, the TO commander, was a

10     member of your Crisis Staff; right?

11        A.   Yes, but you did not properly qualify my previous answer.  May I

12     respond?  I only said --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no need.  You've just given your answer.

14     That's fine.  Can we go on, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Although, we don't have the right document,

17     which I imagine may be an error in my notes.  Do we have 65 ter 18367?

18        Q.   And this is the document I was looking for.  This is a request

19     from the Bosanski Novi Territorial Defence Municipal Staff dated the 16th

20     of March, 1992, for the distribution and issue of material supplies.  And

21     we see, for instance, several hundred rifles of various sorts.  Looking

22     down at points 15 through 17, approximately half a million bullets of

23     different types.

24             So this, in fact, is an example of the Bosanski Novi TO seeking

25     to procure additional weaponry in March 1992; right?

Page 31072

 1        A.   Considering the job I was doing, it was not my responsibility, so

 2     I can't either deny or confirm this.  If it's an original document we're

 3     looking at, then you're probably right.

 4        Q.   Well --

 5        A.   Who was it sent to?  I don't know.  Was it sent to me or someone

 6     else?

 7        Q.   It reflects it was sent to Military Post 1754 in Petrovac, as I

 8     read it.

 9        A.   Yes, but I have nothing to do with this.  And considering my

10     post, I wasn't even supposed to know this.

11        Q.   How often did you meet with Mr. Damjanovic in April and May of

12     1992?

13        A.   It's impossible to answer now after so much time.  We did meet,

14     but I could easily make a mistake if I told you it was two, five, ten

15     times.  But we did meet.

16        Q.   Well, let's see if we can analyse it a little bit together.  How

17     often did your Crisis Staff meet?

18        A.   I can't tell you even that now.  There were moments when the

19     Crisis Staff, depending on the situation, convened all day long, and

20     there were other times when we met two or three times a day, and there

21     were also periods when we didn't meet at all for 10 or 15 days.  It all

22     depended on the current situation and the tensions.  We held meetings as

23     life dictated necessities.

24        Q.   I appreciate it's hard to recall the frequency after this amount

25     of time.  Would it be right to say your recollection was fresher when you

Page 31073

 1     were interviewed by the OTP and when you testified in the Krajisnik case,

 2     both about ten years ago, than your recollection is today?

 3        A.   I think only doctors could say whether I am or am not losing my

 4     mind.  I don't think either of us is really qualified to say that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That was not the question, sir.  The question

 6     never said you're losing your mind.  The question said you may have

 7     forgotten because of passage of time.

 8             So I would ask you to -- not to try to ridicule the lawyer, okay?

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to insist on an answer to my original question.

11     Your recollection of events in 1992 was fresher in 2003 and in 2005 than

12     it is today.  That's the truth, isn't it?

13        A.   Well, first of all, I must say that I did not ridicule you.

14             Second, it is only logical that you remember things better when

15     they are recent, and with the passage of time memories fade.  Now I

16     really can't say whether I --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is so difficult than in answering the

18     question very simply:  Yes, it was fresher then than it is now.  Just

19     answer that, then, if you know that it is logical.  Why do you go round

20     and round and not just telling, yes, sir, I remembered things better then

21     than I do now because time has passed.  That's what I mean by you're

22     trying to ridicule him.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't going round and round and

24     I wasn't mocking anyone --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Answer the question, then.  If you're not going

Page 31074

 1     round and round, answer the question now.  You remember things better

 2     then than you do now?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I answered.  Should I say

 4     any more?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]... "yes" or "no."

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   In that respect, sir, I'd like to call up a page of your

 8     Krajisnik testimony.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 31933, page 138.

10        Q.   And you'd been asked about arming of Serbs in Bosanski Novi,

11     there'd been some back and forth about it.  And you were asked here,

12     beginning at line 8:

13             "Are you -- the sources of weapons for the Serbs in your

14     community prior to the beginning of the war, what were the sources? "

15             And at that time, when your recollection was fresher, you

16     responded:

17             "Well, of course, those weapons had come from military units, in

18     several different ways."

19             First, what you recalled in 2005 is the truth; right?  Serbs in

20     Bosanski Novi, including the TO, received weapons from military units.

21        A.   To some extent, yes.  Although I don't remember whether I said

22     this at that time.  However, I have to emphasise that Novi Grad is on the

23     border with the current Republic of Croatia, and the conflict had broken

24     out one year earlier.  So there were many ways to illegally obtain

25     weapons through these channels.  And it was the same with the Muslims.

Page 31075

 1        Q.   Now, the document we just saw, however, is an example of the

 2     Serbs, in that case, the Serb TO commanded by a member of your Crisis

 3     Staff, getting weapons or requesting weapons from the military, just like

 4     you described in your Krajisnik testimony; right?

 5        A.   If I understood you correctly.  But your previous question was

 6     not exactly the same.  You said "the Serbs."  When you said the Serbs, I

 7     didn't understand that as military formations.  The Territorial Defence

 8     is a military formation, whereas when you say "the Serbs," it could mean

 9     civilians too.  So we are talking about two different parties, two

10     different sides in this question of supply of weapons.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we stop you there, sir.  Can we stop you.

12     You're not -- you are referring to a previous question.  Could you please

13     answer the current question and forget about the previous question,

14     because you didn't comment on that when it was asked at the time.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you then please repeat the

16     current question.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sure.  The document we just saw is an example of the Serbs - in

19     that case, the Serb TO - getting weapons from military units, just like

20     you described in your Krajisnik testimony; right?

21        A.   No, that's not correct.  Because you seem to put an equality mark

22     between Serbs and Territorial Defence.  The Territorial Defence probably

23     requested weapons along legal channels; whereas, the Serbs could obtain

24     weapons by different means, including illegal ones.

25        Q.   Well, let's take that one at a time.  First, it's right that the

Page 31076

 1     Serb Territorial Defence was receiving weapons from military units;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   No, not the Serb Territorial Defence.  In Bosnia-Herzegovina as

 4     it was then, it was still the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.  I'm not speaking legally.  But as of

 6     March 1992, the TO in Bosanski Novi was commanded by a Serb who became a

 7     member of your Crisis Staff; right?

 8        A.   Yes, but there were Muslims on it as well.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I have to -- at this time, I have to object.  In the

10     question was Serb --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  -- Territorial Defence, Your Honours.  Serb

13     Territorial Defence.  First, it should be established whether there was a

14     Serb Territorial Defence in Novi Grad in March 1992 or is there any

15     misunderstanding.  But please, it has to be very clear at what point of

16     time it became Serb Territorial Defence and so on.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we see the document again.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Though, to briefly respond:  First, I think I

20     was in the process of doing that a moment ago.  Second, that's the type

21     of objection that we've asked be made with the witness's headphones off

22     several times, I think, even in the last couple of weeks.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's correct.

24             But Judge Fluegge is asking that we see the document again.

25             MR. TRALDI:  That's 65 ter 18367.

Page 31077

 1        Q.   And, sir, while it's up --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If I might, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   -- by this point in March 1992, after the mobilisations in the

 4     fall of 1991, the personnel in the Territorial Defence, the great

 5     majority were Serbs; right?

 6        A.   It was proportionate to the population.  Bosanski Novi was a

 7     majority Serb place, and in the former Yugoslavia, great attention was

 8     paid to proportional representation, so the Crisis Staff had a

 9     proportionate number of Muslim representatives.  The number of Croats in

10     Novi Grad was negligible.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, it was translated "Crisis Staff" and this

12     gentleman is talking about TO Staff.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic.  You started talking without

14     me having given you an opportunity to talk and I didn't hear what you

15     said.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.  It was translated "Crisis Staff" and this

17     gentleman is talking about TO Staff, so Territorial Defence Staff.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Well, then it's corrected

19     accordingly.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   So, sir, in your submission, when people were mobilised in

22     Bosanski Novi in the fall of 1991, equal percentages of Serbs and Muslims

23     responded to the mobilisation?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are you --

Page 31078

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We have distinguish -- can this gentleman take off

 2     his headphones.  I don't want to be inappropriately [Overlapping

 3     speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Pasic, could you take off your headphones.  Do

 5     we know that Mr. Pasic doesn't understand English?  I know he referred

 6     slightly to this sometime back a few minutes ago.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I can ask in B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please ask him.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Pasic, do you speak English?

11        A.   No.  Unfortunately, no.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We have to make distinction in between mobilisation

13     and TO members.  Mobilisation was for JNA.  TO was in connection with

14     municipalities.  And -- so I -- I don't want my colleague to mix

15     mobilisation of JNA units with TO Staff in the municipality.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, before even Mr. Traldi answers the

17     question.

18             You know, that a wrong question is being asked is no ground for

19     objection.  Because if a wrong question is asked, on re-examination you

20     have the opportunity to say, Sir, you were asked about a Crisis Staff but

21     were you talking about a Crisis Staff or were you talking about the

22     Territorial Defence?

23             Then you correct the record at that.  An objectionable question

24     has nothing to do with a question that is incorrect.  The Prosecutor was

25     just asking a question.

Page 31079

 1             And the witness could answer and say, No, I know nothing about

 2     Crisis Staff, and I know something about the TO, if he recognises that

 3     the question is wrong.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  But, Your Honour, we have the document regarding TO

 5     in front of us.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I accept that.  I accept that.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  So --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if he makes a mistake or -- then you can

 9     correct that mistake in re-examination.  It is not a ground for

10     objection.  That's what I'm saying.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Separate --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection is denied.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Now Mr. Pasic should put his headphones back on.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, let me do this in two steps and try to do it very clearly.

17             First, when there was mobilisation into JNA units in

18     Bosanski Novi in the fall of 1991, proportionally -- or an as percentage

19     of the population, more Serbs responded than Muslims; right?

20        A.   Everyone was being called to respond to the mobilisation, but

21     Muslims, at least most of them, did refuse that call.

22        Q.   Okay.  Separately, then, or similarly, by March 1992, more Serbs

23     were participating in the Bosanski Novi TO commanded, again, by a member

24     of your Crisis Staff, than Muslims.  That's the truth, isn't it?

25        A.   Yes, it's logical.  According to the percentages of the

Page 31080

 1     population.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind me, is it 18367 or 31933.  183.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  18 --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  183.  Thank you so much.  It is admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you please give it a number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 18367 receives exhibit number

10     P7099, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   I'm going to move ahead in time a little bit now, sir.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And can the Prosecution have 65 ter 07996.

16        Q.   As it comes up, in your statement you mention a time when you say

17     you told Charles Kirudja that it was impossible to ensure the safety of

18     Muslims in Bosanski Novi.  Now, that was a message you also delivered to

19     the Muslims of Bosanski Novi; right?  That you couldn't guarantee their

20     safety.

21        A.   The entire population of Novi Grad municipality, they were all

22     subject to us not being able to guarantee their security.

23        Q.   Well, we're looking here at a document coming from the Crisis

24     Staff on the 8th of June, 1992.  It's -- it's identified as going to the

25     citizens of Blagaj and the Japra valley.  Those are Muslim areas; right?

Page 31081

 1        A.   There was a proportion of the Serbian population there as well,

 2     although they were in the minority.

 3        Q.   Now, we're going to go through the events in a moment.  In fact,

 4     sir, by this time, the 8th of June, thousands of Muslims had been pushed

 5     into Blagaj from villages in and around the Japra valley.  That's the

 6     truth, isn't it?

 7        A.   No.  If I understood the proper interpretation, you said they

 8     were pushed into, but I would say moved.  I don't know whether it was

 9     poor interpretation, but it certainly didn't develop along those lines.

10     I object to the word "pushed into."

11        Q.   And this document, this document in the first paragraph says:

12             "On 7 June 1992 you were informed by the Bosanski Novi Red Cross

13     organisation about the problems of departure of Muslims from the

14     territory ..."

15             So the message that's being sent here relates to the departure of

16     Muslims specifically, doesn't it?

17        A.   That's different.  The previous question was interpreted in quite

18     another way.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please answer this question and forget

20     about the previous question.  You've commented on the previous question.

21     This document was addressed to Muslims, wasn't it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would first need to see the

23     document.  Could we please zoom in because it is unclear to me.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can you zoom in the document, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit more, please, if possible.  I

Page 31082

 1     can't make anything out.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The first paragraph.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is quite illegible.  I really

 4     can't see.  Can we perhaps look at the signature block to see whether the

 5     document is authentic?  Can it be scrolled down?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think you -- you asked for enlargement of

 7     the first paragraph.  Can it be enlarged a bit further.  It's not about

 8     authenticity at the moment but about the content.  Can you read it now?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am trying to.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, just to be very specific, in the both first and the second

12     paragraphs, it refers directly to Muslims, and you can read the word

13     "Muslimanske," the first word in the third line in the first paragraph,

14     and the second word in the third line -- sorry, the first word in the

15     third line of the first paragraph; second word, third line, second

16     paragraph.  Right?

17        A.   I'm trying to find it.  I see that it says here the existing

18     terrorist groups of ethnic makeup.  I see that in the second paragraph.

19     I'm looking for another instances of the word "Muslim" being referred to.

20        Q.   Well, you've just, in fact, declined to read the word "Muslim"

21     that comes after the words "terrorist groups," haven't you?  You see the

22     word "Muslim" right there.

23        A.   Please help me.  It is very illegible.  It is not that I'm trying

24     to avoid answering, but I really can't see.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Usher, could just show the witness the word

Page 31083

 1     "Muslimanske" in the third line of the second paragraph, if you can go to

 2     his screen, please.  It is so visible and legible to anybody who even

 3     doesn't know the language.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   At the current level of enlargement, do you also see the same

 6     word at the beginning of the third line of the first paragraph?

 7        A.   The second paragraph:  "Groups of Muslim ethnicity."  Is that it?

 8     Groups of ethnic -- Muslim ethnicity, the second paragraph, second or

 9     third -- third line.  I see "groups of Muslim ethnicity."  Is that it?

10     The second paragraph, third line.

11        Q.   That's one of them.  Now look at the first paragraph --

12        A.   Very well.

13        Q.   Look at the first paragraph and look at the beginning of the

14     third line.

15        A.   Yes, Muslim.  I think the word ends with an O.  However, in terms

16     of the whole sentence, I'm still unable to decipher its meaning.

17        Q.   Well, we'll look at it in a little bit more detail in a moment.

18     But first, there's a document coming from the Crisis Staff.  And so this

19     is -- regardless of who signed it, this is your document; right?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have to zoom out a bit.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say it was the case.

22     I see in the title now that it was a notification sent to the inhabitants

23     of Blagaj and Japra valley.  So the inhabitants, not Muslims.  Perhaps we

24     can scroll back down to see the title.

25             Let me repeat:  Based on this document, and I suppose it is

Page 31084

 1     accurate in terms of what I could see at the top in block letters -- in

 2     any case, it says:  "To the inhabitants of Blagaj and Japra valley."

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, can we stop you please.  Again, I must ask

 5     you to please listen to the questions.  We're not asking you to explain

 6     what the title is.  The question really was:  But this is a document

 7     coming from the Crisis Staff, and so this is - regardless of who signed

 8     it - this is your document; right?  Is it your document or is it not your

 9     document?  Answer that question.  That's the question put to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Perhaps but I don't

11     know.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you look at the person who is written to

13     have -- who is supposed to have signed the document.  Just look at the

14     end of the document.  Can you read that or is it also too illegible?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is for that reason -- well, if

16     we look at the signature block, it says president of the Crisis Staff,

17     Radomir Pasic.  But I think the word "for" is written in with a pen.  I

18     really can't say from this point, so much time later, that -- whether

19     it's accurate.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I don't see the word "for."  You have just

21     been saying you don't see words here.

22             Can we scroll it up a little bit, please.  Up -- no, down, I'm

23     sorry, down.  I'm sorry.  Right.

24             If I see what looks like the signature, it looks like what I saw

25     on your statement today.  Something that looks like, appears.

Page 31085

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, if you look at just above

 2     the typed word "Radomir," on the left-hand side, I think it is in the

 3     Latin script, and the word is "for" or "za."  That is one possibility.

 4     Another possibility is that it was scanned --

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   I can't deny --

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   -- or confirm.

10        Q.   Can I just stop --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can -- yeah, thank you.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   I'm going to stop you and I'm going to ask you two brief

14     follow-up questions.

15             First, if it's signed for you, that means someone is signing on

16     your behalf and the document is going out under the Crisis Staff's

17     authority; right?  Yes or no.

18        A.   If that is the case, then yes.  On behalf of the Crisis Staff.

19        Q.   Second, and related to whether you were communicating that you

20     were unable to guarantee security to everyone or to just Muslims, can you

21     read out, since we only have the B/C/S on our screens, the very last

22     sentence of this document, starting with the word "ukohilko."

23        A.   Please enlarge a little bit more.

24             "Should these proposals be rejected, the Crisis Staff will no

25     longer be able to...," I think it should be "to guarantee," "... the

Page 31086

 1     safety of Muslim citizens in that area."

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I note we're around the time for the

 3     break.  I tender this document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 07996 receives Exhibit P7100,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  In fact, you are right,

 9     Mr. Traldi.  We have gone past the time.  We take a break.

10             Will you please follow the usher, sir.  Again, we'll call you in

11     20 minutes' time.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, how much time do you still need?

14             MR. TRALDI:  I think I'll be the rest of the day, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, should we perhaps excuse the next

16     witness, if he's here?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we didn't call the next witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't call him.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, all right.  Thank you so much.  That's much

21     better.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Because I -- I was checking.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  [Microphone not activated].

24                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

Page 31087

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can the witness please be brought into court.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   So regarding the document that we'd looked at immediately before

 7     the break, sir, that was a declaration that -- advising the Muslims in

 8     this area that the Crisis Staff was prepared to provide a peaceful and

 9     secure departure and noting that it would not be able to guarantee

10     security for the Muslims if they did not accept that proposal.

11             Now, your Crisis Staff never made an announcement inviting Serbs

12     in the area to leave their homes, did it?

13        A.   If we take it the way you put it, I don't think there were any

14     such announcements.  But in terms of guaranteeing safety to anyone, I

15     don't think it was guaranteed to anyone, including Serbs.

16        Q.   But aside from not explicitly guaranteeing their safety, you also

17     didn't invite them to leave, did you?  Yes or no.

18        A.   I did not understand the question.  Please repeat.

19        Q.   Sure.  Did you ever make an announcement:  Please leave your

20     homes, Serbian villagers?

21        A.   I think there were some similar situations when safety could not

22     be guaranteed to the Serbs and when they left their homes as well.  I

23     think there were such cases during the war.

24        Q.   In Bosanski Novi?

25        A.   Yes, in Bosanski Novi.

Page 31088

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   I hail from Bosanski Novi.

 3        Q.   I'm going to cut you off.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Let's look at 65 ter 31934, page 28.  And this will

 5     be another part of your testimony in the Krajisnik case when your

 6     recollection of these events was fresher.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up, I would like to ask the

 8     witness, sir, Mr. Pasic, you were talking about, again, in answering the

 9     question about guarantee of safety.  But that was not the question.  The

10     question was if any Serbs were invited by announcement of the Crisis

11     Staff to leave their homes in your municipality.  That was the question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my understanding as

13     well, but I didn't understand the time-period it referred to.  I

14     responded by saying that there were such moments in time when the Serbs

15     had to leave their homes as well and their safety was not guaranteed.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, the question was about an announcement.

17     Was there an announcement, an invitation to the Serbs to leave their

18     homes?  Please answer that question, not another one.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't want to imagine things,

20     but I'm just saying that there were situations when, by way of radio or a

21     written document or any other type of communication, such things did

22     happen.  Of course, to a lesser extent, but they did.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were there announcements by the Crisis Staff

24     ordering or inviting Serbs to leave their homes?  You should know that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  If you understand me, my

Page 31089

 1     answer is --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I don't understand you.  Your answer is?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let me try to explain,

 4     to be precise and accurate.

 5             If we take a specific period --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, please.  It's a very simple question, which

 7     was now put several times to you.  Do you know of any announcements that

 8     Serbs should leave their homes in your municipality?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.  There were moments

10     when nobody could have their safety guaranteed in certain locations.

11     There were such instances.  Not only to the Muslims but to the Serbs as

12     well.  Even the Serbs could not have their safety guaranteed at specific

13     periods of time and at specific locations.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I state that you are not answering the question,

15     that you're not willing to answer the question, and this is a serious

16     problem because you are here to answer questions to the best of your

17     knowledge, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18     I'm not talking about the guarantee given to anybody.  I'm talking about

19     the announcement that Serbs should leave.  Do you know of any such case?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you understood me

21     well and whether you like my answer or not.  Let me reiterate.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were moments when the Serbs

24     had to leave their areas.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, stop.

Page 31090

 1             Mr. Traldi, please continue.

 2             You're not answering my question.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, I've called up this page of transcript because you did

 5     answer this question in the Krajisnik case.  You were asked first:

 6             "My question, Mr. Pasic, was were the Serb villagers in the

 7     Japra valley asked to leave their villages and go to another location

 8     where they would be more secure?  Yes or no."

 9             And at first you said:

10             "I can't answer with a yes or no because there was displacement

11     from Serb houses as well, but not pursuant to a command."

12             And then Judge Orie asked you:

13             "Mr. Pasic, again, the question was not whether any Serbian

14     families would have left their homes but whether they were asked to leave

15     their villages and go to another location.  That was the question.  Did

16     you ever make an announcement: Please leave your homes, Serbian

17     villagers?"

18             And you responded:

19             "Well, I said that as far as I know, that didn't happen, but

20     people did leave their houses for security reasons."

21             Now I have a simple yes-or-no question for you:  Do you stand by

22     the truthfulness and accuracy of your Krajisnik testimony on this point,

23     yes or no?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 08010.

Page 31091

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  0?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  8010.

 3        Q.   Now, this is an announcement from the Red Cross of Bosanski Novi

 4     municipality, the 7th of June, the day before your announcement.  Now,

 5     looking at the second paragraph, they're also relaying that the

 6     Crisis Staff is not in a position to guarantee the Muslims safety and

 7     discussing the Muslims moving away specifically; right?

 8        A.   Again, I can't read this, but what you said is true, safety could

 9     not be guaranteed at that time to the Muslim population in the area of

10     the Japra valley where the Muslim population was in the majority.  There

11     were some Serbs there as well, and they, too, could not have their safety

12     guaranteed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'll tender this document.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08010 receives Exhibit P7101,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Now, a few weeks earlier there were operations that you referred

22     to in paragraph 12 of your statement, mixed patrols of the civilian

23     police, military police, and TO searched the villages of Suhaca, Hozici,

24     Japra, Crna Rijeka, Blagaj, and Agici between the 15th and 20th of May,

25     1992.  Those were all Muslim villages; right?

Page 31092

 1        A.   90 per cent Muslim.  Maybe more.  There was the odd Serbian house

 2     as well.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 08032.

 4        Q.   And as it comes up, the special unit of the Banja Luka CSB also

 5     participated in those operations; right?

 6        A.   It is possible that was the case.  I can't say anything exactly.

 7     I think there were certain formations at the time of the then-army, and,

 8     of course, the civilian police, but I can't recall exactly with any

 9     reliability who was included.  It is possible that the unit you referred

10     to was included.

11        Q.   Well, this is a document dated the 21st of May, 1992, coming from

12     the Bosanski Novi SJB, and it's a report on the work and actions by a

13     unit from the special purposes detachment in the area under the control

14     of this SJB and it's being sent to the Banja Luka CSB.  So it says in the

15     first paragraph that:

16             "On 11 May 1992 ... uncontrolled shooting erupted first in the

17     town and then around the predominantly Muslim villages in the

18     Japra valley and the Security Services centre of Banja Luka dispatched a

19     unit from the special purposes detachment under the command of

20     Mirko Lukic and a military police unit under the command of

21     Major Stupar ..."

22             And we see below that, in the second paragraph, that the Bosanski

23     Novi SJB sent this special unit to search the Muslim part of

24     Bosanska Kostajnica.  And in the third paragraph, that a large number of

25     citizens complained to the Bosanska Kostajnica police station that this

Page 31093

 1     special unit was entering houses by force, beating up the men, and so on.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Now, if we turn to the end of the document in both

 3     languages, please.

 4        Q.   This report comes from Dragomir Kutlija, the SJB chief.  He was

 5     also a member of your Crisis Staff; right?

 6        A.   Yes, he was a member of the Crisis Staff, as per his function.

 7        Q.   And at the time does this reflect your -- or does this refresh

 8     your recollection that at the time, in fact, you would have been aware

 9     that the special unit of the Banja Luka CSB was involved in these

10     operations and mistreating Muslim civilians?

11        A.   This is a different period that you are referring to.  It is the

12     area of Kostajnica.  It is true that some units, or perhaps the unit with

13     that name, was active in the area of Kostajnica.  There, we could observe

14     that they were not acting in keeping with the then-regulations and laws.

15     At one of the sessions of the Crisis Staff, we asked

16     Mr. Dragomir Kutlija, the chief, to react, in order to establish law and

17     order and protect the people there who, according to our information,

18     were being mistreated in different ways.  As a municipal body, we

19     demanded that unlawful activities be stopped.  As far as I recall --

20        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

21        A.   -- I think our request was met.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'll tender it.  Sorry.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on.  The record didn't record

24     complete the record what I said earlier about P7101.  I did say it is

25     admitted into evidence, may it please be given an exhibit number.  If the

Page 31094

 1     record could just show that clearly.

 2             Thank you so much.

 3             Yes, Mr. Traldi.  You wanted to tendered something.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I was going to ask for another exhibit number,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, I say it:  08032 is admitted into evidence.

 7     May it please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit P7102, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, ma'am.

10             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 08036.

12        Q.   Now, sir, this is a report of the Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff --

13             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, this is a report of the Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff that was

17     sent to the municipal assembly.  Now, first, I've reviewed your past

18     testimonies carefully.  Am I right that in your evidence this report is

19     genuine and you believe it was prepared by the secretary of the

20     Municipal Assembly, a man named Djordje Pravuljac.

21        A.   I would have to read this document before saying whether it's

22     authentic.  I can't see these small letters.  But if I could read it, I

23     would probably be able to remember.  The secretary was indeed

24     Djordje Pravuljac.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Well, just to save time let's call up 65 ter 31933,

Page 31095

 1     page 7.

 2        Q.   And this will be another portion of your sworn testimony in the

 3     Krajisnik case, and that was after you had read through this report.

 4             So at the top of the this page, asked by Mr. Krajisnik's counsel,

 5     you testified:

 6             "I said yesterday evening that this report was written.  I didn't

 7     personally draft it.  It was an assessment, I think.  On one page of the

 8     report, it says that the person was the secretary of the municipal

 9     assembly of Novi Grad.  Let me just find the page.  His name is

10     Djordje Pravuljac.  I think he actually drafted the report because he was

11     in charge of information and some kind of propaganda."

12             Do you stand by that portion of your Krajisnik testimony

13     regarding this report as accurate and truthful, yes or no?

14        A.   I've already said, I stand by my entire testimony in both

15     Karadzic and Krajisnik.  I stand by both the reports.  Maybe I put it a

16     little differently this time, but the meaning is the same.

17        Q.   And so it's correct --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, in fairness to the witness, I don't

19     see any reference in the -- what you quoted from the Krajisnik case in --

20     reference to the fact that this document is authentic.

21             MR. TRALDI:  He said this report was written, I didn't draft it,

22     and this is who I think I drafted it, which is how I'd -- which I'd

23     understood to confirm that this has been draft -- this had been drafted

24     and he was able to identify the drafter.  But the witness having stood by

25     his Krajisnik testimony, in that respect I think he's confirmed what I

Page 31096

 1     have asked him to confirm, at least, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  If you are satisfied from it.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   And this report was submitted to and accepted by the

 5     Municipal Assembly; right?

 6        A.   I have a feeling that we are playing with words here.  If I

 7     understood the interpretation correctly, now you said something different

 8     from what we discussed before --

 9        Q.   Sir --

10        A.   -- please do not be ambiguous and --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Pasic, please don't come and conduct classes

12     on how questions must be asked.  The lawyer asks you questions and you

13     answer his question as he puts it.  He puts it that way because he wants

14     to put it that way.  It's not for you to decide for him what kind of

15     question to put to you, okay?  Just answer the question as it is put to

16     you.  Thank you.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, I understand you're a lawyer by training yourself and you

19     may have asked questions at times, and I'd just ask that you respect what

20     may be our stylistic differences in how we put them.  And separately I'd

21     ask that you answer the question I'd asked a moment ago.  The report we

22     looked at on the work of the Crisis Staff was submitted to the

23     Municipal Assembly and accepted by them; correct?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's have page 133 of this same document.

Page 31097

 1             And I'm looking for the bottom of the page.  Very bottom.  And

 2     you're asked:

 3             "This report that was signed by you and submitted to the

 4     municipal assembly ..."

 5             MR. TRALDI:  If we can turn to the next page.

 6        Q.   "... was accepted by the municipal assembly with the assertions

 7     that are contained in it; correct?"

 8             And you answered:

 9             "Yes, it was accepted.  That is clear enough if you look at the

10     conclusions that we've reviewed."

11             Now --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if we are talking about the same

15     document then, because obviously my colleague is now mentioning something

16     that was discussed in another trial that was signed.  I don't see that

17     this document is signed.  At least I don't see it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Well, if we look at -- sorry, there are several

20     points in the document that correspond to what's being discussed.  But if

21     we flip back to the previous page, this refers to a report on the Crisis

22     Staff.  This is the same document.  It's discussed for a while.  He

23     says --  the witness says:  "This is not my personal report.  It's a

24     report produced by the Crisis Staff."

25             And so we're not putting to him that he'd signed it himself.

Page 31098

 1     But -- or I'm not putting to him that he'd signed it himself, just that

 2     the transcript reflects the same document.  But if it it's more

 3     efficient, the witness having affirmed his previous testimonies in their

 4     entirety, I can simply go through the transcript with Mr. Lukic after the

 5     session today, and if we agree that they're talking about the same

 6     document, agree that he's affirmed that principle in the past.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid that I cannot cure this, since obviously

 8     in another trial something signed was mentioned.  I cannot cure and make

 9     something unsigned to be signed.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I think we've used time -- we've used a great deal

11     of time today, and the solution of looking at the transcript together is

12     efficient for the use of court time.  But I do think if we look at the

13     transcript together in detail, it will certainly be clear whether it's

14     the same document or not.  And I'd suggest we do that after this session.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But also today it was proposed to the witness that he

16     confirmed something signed, so I don't know.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'm willing to withdraw that question for the moment

18     pending my discussion with Mr. Lukic after the court.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The document is withdrawn.  You do it --

20     [Microphone not activated].

21             MR. TRALDI:  The question only.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question is withdrawn.  Okay, thank you.

23             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have back 65 ter 08036.  And if we could

24     have page 8 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   We read -- and it's two paragraphs below the number 3.  Well, the

Page 31099

 1     first paragraph below it we read a discussion about stands and political

 2     decisions on voluntary relocation and the forming of a working group

 3     thereon.

 4             And below that, we read:

 5             "Before this action started to be carried out more seriously,

 6     problems arose in the valley of Japra.  The regional staff of TO Agic,

 7     Rujinka, and Krsalj, that is, members of their units, turned a deaf ear

 8     to endeavours of the official politics and organs of the authorities and

 9     started to solve things on their own.  Armed activities, which included

10     use of mortars, caused expulsion of Muslim civilians from the villages of

11     G. Agic, Celopek, Hozic, Suhaca, and they were taken to the settlement of

12     Blagaj."

13             Now that's the truth as to how Muslims got -- the Muslims who had

14     been gathered in Blagaj at the time of your warning got there, that their

15     villages had been attacked with mortars that had caused their expulsion

16     and they were taken to Blagaj; right?

17        A.   I do remember the details and I remember that part of that

18     District Staff in that area, Velika Rujiska, in Mala Novska Rujiska, some

19     of these people did not listen to the warnings of the command and did

20     something that, in our eyes, wasn't lawful.  What happened was fire was

21     opened from mortars and the Muslim population, probably in fear, moved at

22     that time towards Blagaj village which was also Muslim.  Very quickly

23     these people were disqualified, they no longer worked in the

24     District Staff, so the staff put an end to it.  The Crisis Staff, if I

25     remember correctly, put an end to this.  And --

Page 31100

 1        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.

 2        A.   -- it's precisely for this reason, if can I see well from this

 3     report, that action was taken.

 4        Q.   First, you testified earlier that as a matter of your position

 5     you didn't have involvement with the TO when we were talking about

 6     arming.  Now you assert that the Crisis Staff dismissed members of the

 7     Territorial Defence District Staff.  Those are contradictory answers both

 8     of which tend to insulate you from the preparations for the conflict and

 9     the crimes committed during it.  That's true, isn't it?

10        A.   No, you didn't understand me.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I want to object, anyways.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague is comparing arming and personal

14     involvement of this gentleman into issues of employment; who would be

15     employed with TO.  So arming is one thing, and employment into TO is

16     another thing.  So it cannot be contradicting, as I understand that.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you -- can ... just keep quiet please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like to respond --

21             No, no.  It's not for you.  It's for the current lawyer to

22     respond.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I think it's a fair question, and I admit I don't

24     fully understand the grounds for the objection.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I can clarify my objection if you want, Your Honours.

Page 31101

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, we've heard your objection.

 2             Let's just read what you -- the question you asked, Mr. Traldi.

 3             Now, I'm sorry, I'm not finding it very quickly.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Page 84, line 8 and further, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  84 and line 8 and further.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 8             "First, you testified earlier that as a matter of your position

 9     you didn't have involvement with the TO when we were talking about

10     arming."

11             He didn't have involvement.

12             Now you assert that the Crisis Staff dismissed members of the

13     Territorial Defence District Staff.  If you say -- the topic was arming

14     but the answer was I'm not involved with the TO.  Now --

15             MR. LUKIC:  TO arming.  If you decide on --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic --

17             MR. LUKIC:  -- membership was --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- can we look at the sentence, please.

19             A moment ago you testified that as a matter of your position you

20     did not have involvement with the TO.  At the time when you said you

21     didn't have involvement with the TO, we were discussing arming.  So it is

22     involvement with the TO.  Now, dismissing the TO is involvement with the

23     TO.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Personally but not in arming-wise.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this is --

Page 31102

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is overruled.  Can you --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I'll re-ask the question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection has been overruled.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Sir, earlier you testified, when we were discussing arming, that

 6     you had no involvement with the TO.  Now you're testifying that the

 7     Crisis Staff could dismiss members of the Territorial Defence.  These are

 8     contradictory answers, both of which tend to insulate you from what the

 9     Territorial Defence was doing; first, in preparations; and second, in

10     committing crimes in Bosanski Novi.  Right?

11        A.   No, no, that's not correct.  You're asking me for short answers

12     and that leads to confusion.  I didn't say that the Crisis Staff replaced

13     these people.  What happened is we asked the Territorial Defence to take

14     steps in those external District Staffs and not to allow unlawful

15     actions.  So the essence is completely different.

16             I continue to maintain that we had no authority to issue any

17     commands or orders along the military chain of command, but we did exert

18     our influence and at that time, and I can't remember whether it was in

19     writing or verbally, we did ask that law and order be restored to what

20     was then the municipality of Novi Grad.

21             So it was not me personally or my intention or my request:  Look,

22     go and replace this and that person.  No.  We addressed the TO requesting

23     that they take steps to put a stop to illegal acts.  That was within our

24     purview and that was the limit of our activity.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we look at the document on the screen and see

Page 31103

 1     how you communicated with the TO.

 2             In the middle of that sentence, after saying they were taken to

 3     the settlement of Blagaj, the sentence continues, next sentence

 4     continues:

 5             "The Crisis Staff reacted briskly and issued the order to the TO

 6     municipal staff."

 7             Not asked them to do something.  Ordered them to do something.

 8     Is that correct?  Is it -- is that correctly translated from the original

 9     language?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This language and the word "order"

11     is very frequently misunderstood.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, no.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And even if it stands on paper the

14     way it does --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please, please, sir, just answer my question.  Is

16     this correctly interpreted?  Can you read the corresponding B/C/S

17     language?  Please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I haven't read it.  Then you may proceed,

20     Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I think I could judge better how much of the first

22     session tomorrow I'd need if I could have just one more question today,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 31104

 1        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you, as I did at the beginning, simply to

 2     say yes or no whether you agree with me about the following proposition,

 3     and perhaps either Mr. Lukic or I will ask you about it in more detail

 4     tomorrow.

 5             But these people who had been gathered in Blagaj, several

 6     thousand Muslims, in fact, several thousand of them were, shortly after

 7     the 8th of June when you communicated -- the Crisis Staff communicated

 8     that it couldn't guarantee their safety, loaded onto a railway train made

 9     up of 22 closed wagons, about 4.000 people were put on it, they were

10     boarded for transportation to Central Bosnia, and that operation was run

11     by Radislav Sekulic, the Chief of Staff of the TO.  Do we agree on that

12     point, yes or no?

13        A.   Yes, but I don't know the number.  But it did happen.

14             MR. TRALDI:  That will enable me to be much more efficient

15     tomorrow, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             Sir, we have come to the end of the day for today.  We have not

18     finished with your testimony.  You'll have to come back tomorrow at 9.30

19     in the morning so that we can complete your testimony.  Before you leave,

20     I would like to warn you that you may not talk to anybody or communicate

21     with anybody in whatsoever about the testimony that you have given today

22     or the testimony that you still have to give tomorrow.

23             Is that understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may follow the usher.

Page 31105

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We stand adjourned and we'll resume tomorrow, on

 3     the 4th of February, 2015, at 9.30 in the morning, in the same courtroom,

 4     I.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

 8                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.