Page 31297
1 Monday, 9 February 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed, though Mr. McCloskey is on his feet,
12 that the Defence would have a preliminary matter to raise.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. If I could,
14 this will just take a moment. You'll recognise we have a new person.
15 This is -- we're lucky and privileged to have Melissa Pack with us today.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Welcome in this courtroom.
17 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 We should address one topic according to your guidance. We have
21 to address the topic of the witnesses that the Prosecution does not have
22 questions for and we offer them as 92 ter witnesses, and our position is
23 that the fact that the Prosecution does not have questions for these
24 witnesses does not change their status. And we tried to discuss how to
25 solve this problem, and we think that the best way is to have those
Page 31298
1 witnesses via videolink at one point on -- in time when we have other
2 videolink witnesses, so it could take only ten minutes since there is no
3 additional questions and just attestation of the statement.
4 So I -- since we have to have them viva voce attest their
5 statement. It's not possible to have it in writing, so we have to find
6 some other ways, and we think that's the only --
7 JUDGE ORIE: You say since we have to have them in viva voce
8 attest their statement?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's true for 92 ter witnesses.
11 MR. LUKIC: 92 ter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Not for 92 bis witnesses.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but we do not want to change the status of our
14 witnesses because of the fact that Prosecution does not have questions.
15 We still intend to keep those witnesses as 92 ter.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And what's -- why is that? I mean, you limit
17 yourself to having a statement in evidence to which the witness has
18 attested either 92 ter, that he comes to court and says, "What I said is
19 the truth," or there's a written short statement that said what I said is
20 the truth.
21 MR. LUKIC: If Your Honours would accept that it can be done in
22 writing form and still we have 92 ter witness, then we do not have a
23 problem with that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But why should they be 92 ter? I mean, what's the
25 difference exactly? Of course, there are a few matters; 92 ter witnesses
Page 31299
1 can talk about the act and conduct of the accused. If that's the issue,
2 then I understand that you say, We can't present them as 92 bis witnesses
3 because the subject matter of their testimony does not allow us to
4 present the witnesses as 92 bis witnesses. That's something I
5 understand.
6 But in general statements, we present them as 92 ter, therefore
7 they should remain 92 ter under all circumstances, that's something I do
8 not understand yet what the -- what interest is served by that position.
9 MR. LUKIC: As I understand, 92 bis witnesses should support some
10 other evidence. They cannot stand alone. And 92 ter witnesses, in my
11 understanding, are more of -- of a --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's -- that's a very short summary of which
13 I would say some of it is -- represents what the -- what is both in the
14 Rule and in the case law. First of all, Rule 92 bis does not exclude
15 anything but gives some -- it gives factors which are in favour of
16 admitting in evidence in a written form. And certainly it's true that it
17 says if, for example, it's one of these six elements we find in
18 Rule 92 bis (A) which certainly are in favour of admitting, whereas there
19 are also factors against admitting. But it is still for the Chamber to
20 decide whether or not apart from the strict rules that it should not go
21 to prove -- of a -- of the act and conduct of the accused.
22 I mean, that's clearly explained in Rule 92(A) in the start of
23 that article, but all the rest is a matter of weighing and considering to
24 what extent there are factors in favour or factors opposing such an
25 admission. But that's different from what you are telling us now. You
Page 31300
1 say 92 ter witnesses should remain 92 ter witnesses. If they meet the
2 standards here, you could consider whether or not to present them as
3 92 bis witnesses.
4 Again, I'm not saying that ...
5 One second.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, having very briefly communicated
8 with my colleagues, I would like to make two observations.
9 The first is that, of course, if I say the witness has to write
10 down that he told the truth, that should be in the presence of a court
11 officer. I mean -- but, as you may know, you can ask for someone to be
12 appointed as a court officer. You could also try to take them all
13 together and have one court officer taking all these attestations.
14 That's one.
15 Second, there's also a suggestion, but I don't know whether I
16 understood you well, that the probative value of 92 bis witnesses would
17 be lower than 92 ter witnesses, and that would also be true if there
18 would be no further examination or cross-examination of those 92 ter
19 witnesses, which means that only the statement is there and we see a face
20 of a person who says, All I said is the truth. No further questions.
21 That's it.
22 Well, there the Chamber might well disagree, if that is what you
23 want to tell us, that the probative value is different. Under those
24 circumstances.
25 MR. LUKIC: Still, it's different if the other party has the
Page 31301
1 opportunity to question and challenge something from the statement and
2 they actually choose not to, then it's of course different from telling
3 the other party that they do not have right to cross-examine because it
4 is 92 bis witness as we see before.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But if a party says I'm not going to use my right to
6 cross-examine, then it's that party - in this case, the Prosecution - who
7 says: I have that right, I'm not going to use it. So why should you
8 then insist on offering an opportunity to exercise a right which they
9 announced they would not exercise?
10 MR. LUKIC: I do not understand why the other party when they
11 choose not to cross-examine our witness, why that change the status of
12 our witness?
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's a simple matter of concern about efforts. It's
14 a concern about everything where there's no difference in substance.
15 There is no difference in substance in this specific situation between a
16 92 bis and 92 ter statement apart that we do not see a face which doesn't
17 say more than I attest to what is put on paper. We don't see that face
18 but we read that in the presence of a court officer that person has said
19 so and has signed for it.
20 Now, to bring witnesses here is a costly matter which we -- I
21 think the Tribunal gladly accepts if there's any difference in substance
22 to the witness not appearing. Our question is: What is the difference?
23 Again, I see the point: If the witness is talking about act and conduct
24 of the accused, that's a good legal reason to bring that witness to
25 The Hague. But in general to say if the Prosecution doesn't want to
Page 31302
1 cross-examine the witness, that doesn't make any change. We'll bring
2 that witness to be here with us for two minutes and to say exactly what
3 he could have said to a -- to a presiding officer appointed by the Court,
4 that's what we still do not understand. And we have a task in trying to
5 be as efficient as possible both in terms of time but also in terms of
6 finances.
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I am afraid that I was misunderstood. I
8 didn't offer to bring the witnesses here. I offered to have videolink --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even that may be --
10 MR. LUKIC: It's very low cost. One of them live in the same
11 city where the videolink would be held, so there is no travel cost, there
12 is no stay costs, there is no any kind of costs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's certainly changes slightly the situation,
14 although your basic argument was we are not going to change the status of
15 92 ter witnesses. Even then, but that's still not entirely clear to the
16 Chamber on what basis you make such a statement. But I think there is no
17 disagreement that hearing those witnesses through videolink certainly
18 saves some of the expenses we would have if the witnesses would appear
19 here in The Hague. That is, I think, commonly understood.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would hope so, although I don't know the cost
21 the Registry incurs going there and all, unless you're talking about it
22 being part of a regular 92 bis --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Lukic already
24 made clear that he would combine it with a testimony given through
25 videolink which, for other reasons, has to be organised anyhow. So that
Page 31303
1 certainly is well understood, Mr. Lukic, that that saves time, saves
2 money. But the basic argument was 92 ter should remain 92 ter and that
3 is something the Chamber does not understand yet. We do understand that
4 the costs involved would certainly be less if it would be combined with a
5 videolink testimony that will be conducted anyhow.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to put your fears at rest, Mr. Lukic, I don't
7 agree with you that a 92 bis witness's testimony, it is only supportive
8 of other evidence. If it is dealing with a particular situation and it's
9 the only evidence on that, that's the only evidence and it's as strong as
10 any other evidence. That it has not been cross-examined doesn't make it
11 any weaker. It's not cross-examined because the opposite doesn't
12 cross-examine it, they agree with it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour is probably waiting for my answer to your
15 observation. But having read some previous judgements, I think that
16 there might be some differences, yeah.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But let me -- it's, of course, a matter to -- still
18 to be discussed on if you accept the testimony of a witness, does not
19 always necessarily mean that you would agree with the substance of all of
20 it. But the decision not to cross-examine is because the Prosecution
21 thinks that putting further questions to that witness would not assist
22 its case.
23 If a witness comes here and gives only sweeping statements
24 without any basis for it, I could imagine that the Prosecution takes the
25 position that sweeping statements are not statements about facts which
Page 31304
1 are identified as such, and that therefore there's no need to
2 cross-examine a witness if he doesn't bring any facts and therefore there
3 are no facts to be challenged. That's all.
4 Why the Prosecution does not cross-examine the witness is
5 entirely to be decided upon by the Prosecution itself. That's the
6 situation. And we are comparing the situation where there's only a
7 written statement plus an attestation, either 92 ter in court or through
8 videolink or in written format under Rule 92 bis, and that there's
9 nothing else, and what we'd like to do is to save as much time and to
10 save as much money as is possible and still guaranteeing a fair trial.
11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I just want to add that I don't think
12 that the Prosecution does not have cross because of sweeping statements.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I just gave a possible example. They could
14 think it's not relevant and therefore there's no use to cross-examine the
15 witness. They could think that these -- it's not about facts because --
16 and therefore there's no need to cross-examine the witness. They can
17 give -- I don't know, I'm not talking about any of these statements. But
18 there may be many reasons why you would or would decide not to
19 cross-examine a witness.
20 Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, those are all good examples of reasons why
22 we would not. One thing that is clear is by not cross-examining we're
23 not agreeing to anything in the statement. If we choose to agree, we can
24 agree, but by not cross-examining we are not agreeing to anything.
25 MR. LUKIC: I think that the practice of this Tribunal pushes the
Page 31305
1 parties if they do not agree they have to cross-examine and they have to
2 challenge what they do not agree with.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's a total misunderstanding. If one party
4 presents totally irrelevant evidence, there's no need whatsoever to
5 cross-examine the witness and to say that what is irrelevant was
6 different but if it's still irrelevant, we shouldn't spend time on it.
7 MR. LUKIC: Why do you suppose that our witness is irrelevant?
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not supposing anything. But the Prosecution,
9 they have, I think, 400 witnesses, and on some of them they have decided
10 that they would not cross-examine for one out of the many, many reasons a
11 party could have not to cross-examine a witness, and Mr. McCloskey just
12 said, well, for example, relevance, whatever, and of course they are
13 bearing the consequences of that. Because if -- let's just assume that
14 testimony - and it would work the other way exactly the same - if you
15 have not challenged evidence which is not relevant, if you make a mistake
16 and if it turns out to be relevant, then you may be in trouble. But
17 that's for the parties to consider.
18 I take it that if the Prosecution decided not to cross-examine
19 the witness, that they'll accept that that is what the witness presented
20 as evidence, and what role that evidence plays or what weight to be given
21 to it, that's for later is for argument. And the fact that you always
22 have to cross-examine witnesses if you disagree with the substance of
23 what the witnesses tell us, that's a total misunderstanding of the
24 system, I would say, more in general terms of the common law traditional
25 system and certainly what is the practice before this Tribunal.
Page 31306
1 MR. LUKIC: With all due respect I have to disagree, Your Honour.
2 I think that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may disagree.
4 MR. LUKIC: -- a party has to present its case and has to
5 challenge everything that goes against its case.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If the evidence goes against its case. Now, it
7 could well be - and again, don't blame me for just choosing one of the
8 many, many possibilities - if a witness would come with unsubstantiated
9 evidence, then it -- that party, the opposing party, may consider that
10 evidence which doesn't go against its case because it's not concrete. If
11 evidence is presented which is not relevant, the party could say, Well,
12 it doesn't go against my case because it's irrelevant for my case at all.
13 If it goes about all kind of details where the party considers that the
14 details are not part of their case but it's the core of the testimony,
15 and even if details are different, that they don't have do put their case
16 on irrelevant details, that's all for the parties to decide.
17 But I emphasise that party will bear the consequences of its
18 assessment and will bear the consequences of its -- of the attitude of
19 the procedural approach they've taken.
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours asked us to give our position how to
21 solve this situation, and we gave you our position so ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: And we want you to reconsider that in view of
23 apparently -- of what we just discussed, and we do understand that at
24 least as far as costs are involved that you want to accommodate that
25 concern by adding them to existing -- adding them to videolink
Page 31307
1 testimonies that will be conducted anyhow. That's clearly on the record.
2 And the Chamber appreciates that at least that matter of the
3 costs has caught your attention and that you have given it thought how to
4 accommodate that. It does not, however, resolve the apparently existing
5 in the Chamber's wrong understanding by the Defence of the duty of a
6 party to cross-examine.
7 I think we leave it to that at this very moment.
8 Then, Mr. Lukic, since we are dealing with some other matters as
9 well, you're also due to give us an update on expert reports. The matter
10 has been addressed on the 26th of January, and the matter has been
11 addressed again on the 2nd of February, where the last words I spoke
12 were:
13 "Without going into details now, could you please consider
14 whether you could, on shortest notice, give us whatever information you
15 have or perhaps even not have yet but which you understand the Chamber
16 would need."
17 That is about the expert witnesses. To say, well, they're not
18 ready yet is not the kind of information -- well, it's the beginning of
19 the information we need. They're not ready yet. Then we want to know
20 when they will be ready, when will the reports be there. That's -- and
21 you have had at least some time now, a week, to further verify what the
22 situation is.
23 MR. LUKIC: Can we postpone this -- our address until the end of
24 this day, working?
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait until the end of this day and hear
Page 31308
1 further from you.
2 Meanwhile, the witness can be escorted into the courtroom and I
3 used the time --
4 Yes.
5 MS. PACK: Your Honour, there is just one matter before the
6 witness is brought in which is that he should be advised of his rights
7 under Rule 90(E). He was so advised in the Karadzic case.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think, as a matter of fact, Mr. Lukic, having
9 read the statement that -- that there certainly is reason here to give
10 the witness a 90(E) warning.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. I
12 shall take the liberty of asking you to caution the witness before he
13 begins with his testimony.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I will do. Could the witness be
15 escorted into the courtroom.
16 Meanwhile, I use the time to bring the following -- to put the
17 following on the record.
18 On the 19th of January of this year, the Defence e-mailed the
19 Chamber and the Prosecution stating that it had received and uploaded a
20 revised translation for Exhibit D727 to which the Prosecution has agreed,
21 and the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the existing
22 translation of D727 with the revised translation, which is uploaded under
23 doc ID 1D17-0327.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Petrovic. Before you give
Page 31309
1 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that
2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It's
3 now handed out to you by Madam Usher.
4 Could you make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: MILE PETROVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
10 Mr. Petrovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic. But before he starts his
12 examination, I'd like to bring the following to your attention.
13 Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of this
14 Tribunal state as follows:
15 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
16 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
17 answer the question and testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
18 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
19 offence other than false testimony."
20 That means that you, as a witness, if you think that the truthful
21 answer to any of the questions might incriminate yourself, that you can
22 address me and seek that you'll not be under an obligation to answer that
23 question. We'll then decide whether or not we require you to answer that
24 question. But please be aware that if you have not asked me not to
25 answer a question, then you should give a truthful answer. Is that
Page 31310
1 understood?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Stojanovic will now examine you.
4 Mr. Stojanovic you may proceed.
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. As is the customary procedure here in the courtroom, could you
9 please give us your exact name as slowly as possible.
10 A. Mile Petrovic.
11 Q. Mr. Petrovic, at one point did you provide a statement in writing
12 to the Defence team of General Mladic?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
15 have 65 ter 1D01674 in e-court.
16 Q. Mr. Petrovic, you have a screen before you and you can see the
17 statement. On page 1 of this document, you can see a signature. Once
18 you've seen this, I would kindly ask you to tell the Court whether that
19 is your signature.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask that we
22 look at the last page of this document, 1D01674.
23 Q. Mr. Petrovic, on this page of the document, can you also
24 recognise your signature? And the date that you can see on this page, is
25 it written in your own hand?
Page 31311
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
4 ask that we look at paragraph 8 of the witness's statement.
5 Q. Mr. Petrovic, while we were preparing for you to appear in this
6 courtroom, did you indicate to me that a correction should be made here;
7 namely, in the first sentence instead of the word "in front of," and then
8 it says "under the flat roof of an unfinished house," it would be right
9 to say "under the flat roof of an unfinished house"?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I don't understand what you are
12 saying. I don't see "in front of" in this sentence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It comes a few lines later. But in the first
14 sentence, there was already "under the flat roof of an unfinished house."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, not "in front of."
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In the B/C/S
17 version, it says: "In front," "ispred." So the difference is only in
18 B/C/S and that's why the witness asked us to correct the B/C/S version.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well then, now the --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- original statement then is the same as what we
22 find in the, until now, wrong English translation and now the accurate
23 English translation.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.
Page 31312
1 Q. Now, Mr. Petrovic, once we've corrected the B/C/S version of your
2 statement, today, in this courtroom, now that you have taken the solemn
3 oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, would you give the same
4 answers to the questions that were put to you while this statement was
5 being taken?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And these answers, would they be your best recollection and your
8 best knowledge regarding everything that you spoke of?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
11 tender 1D01674, the witness statement of Mile Petrovic, so that it could
12 be admitted into evidence.
13 MS. PACK: No objection, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01674 receives Exhibit D894,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
19 would like to read the summary of Witness Mile Petrovic's statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Mile Petrovic was a
22 member of the VRS during the war in BiH, and in July 1995 he was within
23 the platoon of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.
24 In that period, he was often absent from the unit because of the
25 health problems that his newborn daughter had, so he was not aware of any
Page 31313
1 activities of his unit around Srebrenica. He remembers that sometime in
2 July 1995 in the town of Bratunac he encountered Momir Nikolic, then a
3 captain and chief of intelligence and security affairs in the command of
4 the Bratunac Brigade, who had previously ordered him and the commander of
5 the military police platoon, Mirko Jankovic, to take a military APC
6 together him and go to Konjevic Polje. As they were moving down the road
7 towards Konjevic Polje, somewhere before that, they were stopped by two
8 men who were searched on Nikolic's orders and brought into the APC. The
9 assumption was that these Muslims who were leaving Srebrenica.
10 Upon arriving in Konjevic Polje, they handed over these prisoners
11 to a soldier who they found in front of an unfinished building after
12 Nikolic had interrogated them.
13 The next task that he received from Nikolic was that, together
14 with Jankovic, who was driving the APC, they take two members of UNPROFOR
15 towards Bratunac, which is indeed what they did, but at the request of
16 these persons, they went around the road towards Bratunac for about
17 2 kilometres and then they returned to Konjevic Polje. The witness
18 points out that he is aware of the testimony of Momir Nikolic during
19 which he presented many untruths. He says that Momir Nikolic is
20 absolutely not telling the truth when he mentions him as a person who
21 killed six prisoners on that occasion.
22 In addition to that, Petrovic testifies about other untruths that
23 were then stated by Nikolic.
24 Finally, he says that he is aware of part of Nikolic's testimony,
25 stating that he had reported to General Mladic in Konjevic Polje. He
Page 31314
1 claims that on that day they did not see or encounter General Mladic and
2 his escorts on that day either in Konjevic Polje or along the
3 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.
4 That is the summary of Witness Mile Petrovic's statement, and
5 with your leave, I would just like to put a few questions to him in order
6 to clarify certain matters.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look
9 at paragraph 5 of the statement that is now D894.
10 Q. Mr. Petrovic, I just wanted to try to get the chronology right
11 here, if possible. This is what you say in paragraph 5:
12 "We set off from the compound of the Bratunac Brigade towards
13 Konjevic Polje ..."
14 I would like to ask you to try to remember, if you can, and tell
15 the Trial Chamber, to the best of your recollection, can you say what
16 part of the day it was when you set out from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje?
17 A. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was in the afternoon.
18 The actual time, I really cannot say. I mean, I cannot say exactly what
19 time it was.
20 Q. When you say "in the afternoon," I would like to ask you to try
21 to tell the Trial Chamber whether this was the evening afternoon hours or
22 earlier afternoon hours?
23 A. No, no. We had returned from Konjevic Polje. It had been
24 day-time for quite a while. We didn't spend much time there. It was
25 day-time when we were returning from Konjevic Polje. It was well into
Page 31315
1 the day. It could have been, say, I don't know, say, 1.00 onwards,
2 12.00, 1.00, onwards, I don't know the exact time. However, I know that
3 when we were returning, we were well into the day. It wasn't late or
4 anything.
5 Q. Thank you. One more question. In order to assist all of us here
6 in this courtroom to understand your testimony, in paragraph 6 and
7 paragraph 7 you speak about your activities in Konjevic Polje. Can you
8 assess, to the best of your recollection, how much time you spent in
9 total in Konjevic Polje from the moment when you arrived when you spoke
10 to these prisoners -- actually, the interviews conducted by
11 Momir Nikolic, then taking the UNPROFOR men, and then going down the road
12 or up the road to Bratunac, and then after that going back to Bratunac?
13 How long did all of that take?
14 A. Do you mean from Bratunac, when we left Bratunac for
15 Konjevic Polje, or how much time we spent in Konjevic Polje itself?
16 Q. Please. Could we take this step by step. Please tell us how
17 much time you spent in Konjevic Polje.
18 A. In Konjevic Polje, we spent about an hour and a half or two
19 there.
20 Q. Thank you. And I'm going to end with the following question.
21 According to your knowledge of the area and that road and the
22 possibilities of that APC, how much time did you need to get to
23 Konjevic Polje from the command of the Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. Well, I don't know how fast an APC goes. It's 21 kilometres from
25 Bratunac to Konjevic Polje. Now I don't know exactly. I don't want to
Page 31316
1 tell a lie or anything. I don't know exactly how it takes an APC to get
2 there. The driver was not very knowledgeable either. He didn't really
3 know how to drive it. It was the first time that he entered a vehicle
4 like that.
5 Q. Could you give us any time-frame, to the best of your
6 recollection, for these 21 kilometres?
7 A. Well, it certainly takes more than an hour.
8 Q. Mr. Petrovic, thank you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the
10 witness.
11 Q. At this moment we're not going to put any more questions to you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for the
13 time allocated to us.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters missed what Mr. Petrovic said
15 when Mr. Stojanovic had thanked him.
16 Mr. Stojanovic said: "Mr. Petrovic, thank you." What did you
17 then say, Witness?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
20 Mr. Petrovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Pack. Ms. Pack
21 is counsel for the Prosecution. You'll find her to your right.
22 Ms. Pack.
23 MS. PACK: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Pack:
25 Q. Mr. Petrovic, you may recall I cross-examined you before in the
Page 31317
1 Karadzic case.
2 In your statement at paragraph 12, and there's no need to look at
3 it, you'll remember you take issue with Momir Nikolic's evidence that six
4 Muslim men surrendered to you on the road between Bratunac and
5 Konjevic Polje and that you told him at Konjevic Polje that you had
6 killed them. You say that there were only two Muslim men and you didn't
7 execute them; right?
8 A. There were two Muslims, and I didn't kill them.
9 Q. You take issue with Mr. Nikolic's evidence that you told him at
10 Konjevic Polje that you took revenge for your brother; right?
11 A. That's not true.
12 Q. You agree you had a brother?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. He was killed during an ABiH attack on Bjelovac, where you were
15 from, on 14th December, 1992. Yes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were with Nikolic on one occasion at Konjevic Polje on the
18 13 July; right?
19 A. Yes, we were there.
20 MS. PACK: Can we look at your statement at paragraph 1, please.
21 That's D894. And if we can just have it on the screen. Page 2 in the
22 B/C/S and English.
23 Q. In July 1995 you say, I'll just read it:
24 "I was engaged as a conscript and assigned to the post of a
25 military policeman in the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac. There was a
Page 31318
1 military police platoon in the Bratunac Brigade and its commander was
2 Mirko Jankovic and his superior was Captain Momir Nikolic, chief of the
3 intelligence and security organ. There were about 20 of us military
4 policemen in this platoon."
5 What you don't state, of course, in that first paragraph of your
6 witness statement is that you were a commander, weren't you? You were
7 deputy commander of the Bratunac Brigade Military Police Platoon in
8 July 1995. That's right, isn't it?
9 A. Well, I wasn't there. I was just told, and that's what I said
10 before. I don't suppose I was.
11 Q. You've been asked about this before, and I'm going to remind you
12 of your testimony at Momir Nikolic's sentencing hearing.
13 MS. PACK: It's 65 ter 31975, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But I've difficulties in matching the answer with
15 the question, whether the witness was anywhere or what his function was,
16 of course, are two different things. So therefore before we move on,
17 could we verify that the witness has understood your question.
18 MS. PACK:
19 Q. You understand the question. Were you deputy commander of the
20 military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade in July 1995?
21 A. I was not officially appointed. No papers were made to that
22 effect. I was just told that if Mirko Jankovic was away, I would be
23 standing in for him. However, since Mirko was there all the time, there
24 was no need for me to deputise for him. I just did my usual service
25 as -- as a soldier.
Page 31319
1 Q. Yes, you've had trouble with this before. Can I ask you, please,
2 to turn to --
3 MS. PACK: Could we have 65 ter 31975 on the screen, page 16.
4 Q. I'll read it out. It's in English, so I'll read it slowly. From
5 the bottom of the page.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What we have in B/C/S on our screen apparently is
7 something different.
8 MS. PACK: Something else. Yes. It's another part of the
9 package but not the transcript. This is the transcript of the sentencing
10 hearing when this witness first testified in 2003.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes. Let's move on.
12 MS. PACK: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This document only exists in English, Witness.
14 Therefore, carefully listen what is read to you and we'll verify whether
15 that is what we see on our screens.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 "Q. Mr. Petrovic, were you the deputy commander --"
19 MS. PACK: It's line 16, I apologise. For Your Honours, line 16.
20 "Q. Mr. Petrovic, were you the deputy commander of the military
21 police of the Bratunac Brigade, yes or no?
22 "A. I was not given a document. I was just told orally by
23 Nikolic that I was to stand in for Mirko when he wasn't around.
24 "Q. May I take your answer as meaning, yes, that you were the
25 deputy commander of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.
Page 31320
1 "A. Yes. But there was no order to that effect.
2 "Q. Mr. Petrovic, did you de facto perform the duty of
3 deputy commander of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade in
4 July 1995?
5 "A. Yes."
6 A. First of all, it was not the brigade commander. It was the
7 commanding officer of the military police platoon. You keep saying
8 "brigade commander." I was the commander of the military police platoon,
9 and I was appointed verbally. You can think of it what you like, but
10 that's how it was.
11 Q. And you would accept, wouldn't you, that your commander
12 Mirko Jankovic understood that you were his deputy. Yes?
13 A. Mirko Jankovic was not a commander. He was a "komandir." And if
14 I was his deputy, I didn't have a written appointment for it. The only
15 thing I was supposed to do was to stand in for Mirko Jankovic in the
16 military police platoon if and when he was absent.
17 Q. Okay. Well, we'll just turn to the next page, 17, in your
18 testimony in the Nikolic sentencing hearing. Line 21. You were asked:
19 "Mr. Petrovic..."
20 And this is what the questioner said to you.
21 "... I will read part of the interview of Mr. Mirko Jankovic..."
22 It's in the B/C/S and it goes on:
23 "... where Mr. Mirko Jankovic says the following:
24 "'My name is Mirko Jankovic and by rank I am a sergeant, but it
25 says here that I'm a sergeant first class. I don't know how come. This
Page 31321
1 is a rank I had in the civil police while I was working in the military
2 police."
3 MS. PACK: Turn over the page, please.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And please read more slowly.
5 MS. PACK: I apologise, Your Honour.
6 Q. "'The next person was my deputy and that was Mile Petrovic.'"
7 And you were asked:
8 "If Mirko Jankovic says you were his deputy and you're saying you
9 weren't, does that mean he was lying or, rather, not telling the truth?"
10 You answer:
11 "He was telling the truth. I told you. I got this orally. And
12 I don't know -- how I do know how he [sic] understood this way or that?"
13 Just to fully understand, you accept Mirko Jankovic was telling
14 the truth when he said you were his deputy; right.
15 A. I was a deputy by oral orders. It was -- I was just told I would
16 deputise for him, but it was not an official written appointment. That's
17 the problem. You don't distinguish between an oral and a written
18 appointment. When you appoint somebody in writing to a certain duty,
19 that's one thing. And it's quite another thing if we are sitting in the
20 room together and Momir Nikolic says, "You'll be standing in for Mirko if
21 he goes away." What kind of appointment is that?
22 You were able to see that before and after that I did guard duty,
23 I went out into the field to bring commanding officers into custody,
24 et cetera. A commander doesn't do any of these things. All of us who
25 were in the military police, we obeyed orders. We obeyed what we were
Page 31322
1 told. You are trying to represent me as a deputy. I'm telling, Mirko --
2 Nikolic told me to deputise for him occasionally, but I wasn't officially
3 ap pointed as a deputy.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, unless it has some specific importance for
5 what now follows, I think the positions are pretty clear that you are --
6 MS. PACK: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. The witness apparently feels the
8 need to emphasise that he was not formally - that is, in writing --
9 MS. PACK: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- appointed. Let's move on and see what the
11 relevance of this dispute is for anything that comes up.
12 MS. PACK:
13 Q. You were promoted to commander of the military police platoon,
14 just to finish this, of the Bratunac Brigade in March 1996; right?
15 A. In March?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes, after the mobilisation. I stayed on in 1996 when
18 Mirko Jankovic was relieved of his duties because of his age. It was
19 after the Dayton Accords; right? In 1996. After older men began to be
20 dismissed from the army. Is that the period you mean?
21 MS. PACK: Your Honour, this may be -- if this is a convenient
22 time. May be time to break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second, I was checking something else.
24 It is a convenient time for a break.
25 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may follow
Page 31323
1 the usher.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I was just -- my attention was diverted
4 slightly because on page 24, line, 16 I'm interested as Dr. Falke, or --
5 no. I think as a matter of fact it was Judge Fluegge who was introduced
6 as such. I can testify that Judge Fluegge is not a medical doctor nor he
7 is Dr. Falke. That's why I missed your question, whether it was an
8 appropriate time for a break. It is.
9 We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
13 Mr. Lukic, perhaps in -- in follow-up on what we discussed
14 earlier, could I invite you to carefully read Rule 90(H) where the --
15 90(H)(ii). There is a specific obligation for the cross-examining party
16 who uses cross-examination not exclusively in relation to the subject
17 matter of the evidence in-chief and matters affecting credibility of the
18 witness but also uses cross-examination to put questions relevant to the
19 case for the cross-examining party itself, if it uses cross-examination
20 in that way and if then the witness, answering those questions, is giving
21 evidence which is in contradiction of the cross-examining party's case,
22 under those circumstances an obligation arises that the nature of the
23 case of the cross-examining party should be put to that witness. But
24 that only arises if the witness is cross-examined, that's first; second,
25 if that cross-examination is used to elicit evidence which is not linked
Page 31324
1 to the subject matter of the examination-in-chief but, rather, relevant
2 to the case of the cross-examining party, and only then if the witness
3 contradicts that party's case under -- only in -- if these three
4 requirements are fulfilled, the obligation arises to put the case to the
5 witness.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just a short analysis of Rule 90(H)(ii).
8 Ms. Pack, please proceed.
9 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Petrovic, you know Nadin [phoen] Blagojevic yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see him on the 13 July on the road or at Konjevic Polje?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. It's not in your statement but you've said before you also take
15 issue with Momir Nikolic's evidence that you used a megaphone on the
16 13 July to call upon Muslim men to surrender. Do you still dispute that
17 evidence?
18 A. I do. I never called on anyone.
19 Q. You agree with Nikolic that you travelled on the 13th July in an
20 APC from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.
21 A. Yes, I travelled with him and Mirko.
22 Q. Mirko Jankovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This was a stolen UN APC; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 31325
1 Q. It was white and it had UN marked on it in big black letters;
2 yes?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You agree that Muslim men were called upon to surrender by
5 Bosnian Serb forces using megaphones. This was along the
6 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. That did happen?
7 A. Well, I saw the civilian policemen talking into a megaphone. In
8 fact, I don't know if it was the radio from their car or a megaphone. I
9 saw them as we were passing by.
10 Q. You agree the Muslim men were given ultimata. They were told it
11 was safe, that they would be exchanged on the megaphones?
12 A. I don't know about that. I couldn't hear from the noise of the
13 engine what they were saying.
14 Q. The evidence in this case is that Muslim men were deceived into
15 thinking that it was indeed safe for them to surrender because they saw
16 an UN personnel carrier on the road. That was your intention, wasn't it,
17 you in the APC, to deceive the Muslim men into thinking it was safe?
18 Yes?
19 A. I didn't know that. Perhaps Momir Nikolic knew that. But as we
20 were going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, along the road we saw 50 to
21 100 men who had come down even before we had arrived at that point. They
22 had already surrendered. They only asked us to give them water, and I
23 threw at them water in -- in Tetra Pak that I found in the APC.
24 Q. You don't deny that that's what happened, that Muslim men
25 surrendered because they saw a UN APC along the road?
Page 31326
1 A. I just told you, as we were coming to that point, those people
2 had already come there. They were already there. As we were moving
3 towards Konjevic Polje, we were running into them along the road, and
4 they were asking for water. And I went with those two members of the UN.
5 Up there, people had also been asking for water. They were carrying some
6 other people on stretchers --
7 Q. I'll ask you about the UN men in a moment. You know that these
8 men, these Muslim men who came down to the road, save for a very few who
9 escaped, you know they were executed by Bosnian Serb armed forces on the
10 13th and in the days after that. You know that's the case? You accept
11 that's the case.
12 A. On that day, nobody was executing anyone as we were driving from
13 the APC from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and back. I didn't see any of
14 that. I only saw them coming to the road. And as they were coming,
15 there were some people already there along the road, on both sides of the
16 road, and whether some more people came later I don't know.
17 Q. On the night of the 13th July, this isn't in your statement,
18 Muslim men and boys were detained in Bratunac in buses and trucks lining
19 the streets and at various locations. You know that?
20 A. I heard about that.
21 Q. Bratunac Brigade military police were amongst those guarding
22 them. You know that?
23 A. I know about that.
24 Q. On the morning of the 14th July with your commander,
25 Mirko Jankovic, you escorted the convoy of Muslim prisoners which
Page 31327
1 travelled from Bratunac to Zvornik; yes?
2 A. We drove the APC. I think it was also on the 14th, but I don't
3 remember.
4 Q. The stolen UN AP --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --
6 MS. PACK: Sorry, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Ms. Pack.
8 Could you please also answer to what is the core of the question
9 and not just in the margin of it.
10 The question was whether you escorted the convoy of Muslim
11 prisoners. And then you say: "We drove the APC." When driving the APC,
12 were you escorting a convoy of Muslim prisoners on the 14th of July?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What does "escort" mean.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That means to accompany a group of Muslim prisoners,
15 and you can do that in many ways, apparently it's suggested to you that
16 you did that while being seated in an APC, whether you were there to keep
17 an eye on Muslim prisoners, a larger group, going to Zvornik.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had received orders to accompany
19 those not --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't ask whether did you it on orders or
21 not, but I asked you whether you did it or not.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we accompanied those trucks
23 and buses to Zvornik. That's what I said.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 31328
1 D00285 on the screen, please.
2 Q. Perhaps this will help you.
3 MS. PACK: Can we have, please, in the English page 14, B/C/S
4 page 17.
5 This is the Bratunac Brigade military police daily log-book.
6 You've seen it before.
7 Look at the entry, please, dated 14th to 15th July.
8 "The police was engaged in the escort of Muslim refugees."
9 This entry describes your escort of the Muslim prisoners from
10 Bratunac to Zvornik; right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Thousands of Muslim men transported from Bratunac to Zvornik;
13 right?
14 A. Well, of course. All of that was in that convoy. In trucks and
15 buses.
16 Q. You driving in a stolen United Nations APC; yes?
17 A. I was not driving. Mirko Jankovic was driving.
18 Q. These men whom you led escorted to Zvornik were executed by
19 members of the VRS, starting that day on the 14th, apart from a very few
20 survivors. You know that's what happened; yes?
21 A. I heard all of that.
22 Q. Let's go back to the 13th July, please. In your statement --
23 MS. PACK: Paragraph 8, for Your Honours.
24 Q. You don't need to look at it. I think you'll remember. When you
25 were at Konjevic Polje, you say Momir Nikolic told you to give two UN
Page 31329
1 soldiers a lift towards Bratunac; right?
2 A. Yes. Not to Bratunac, but as far as they want to go, take them
3 there, and when they want to return, you return them.
4 Q. Yes. Just to I can fully understand your evidence, you say you
5 didn't take these men -- well, let me understand this and you can tell me
6 whether this is correct.
7 You didn't take these men to anywhere in particular. You just
8 took them for a ride back down the road towards Bratunac and back again.
9 That's your evidence?
10 A. Yes, yes, took them, brought them back.
11 Q. Just to take them for a ride in your stolen UN APC; yes?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. You left Momir Nikolic at the Konjevic Polje intersection, the
14 cross-roads, you left him there?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Both of these soldiers, these Dutch UN soldiers, have given
17 statements to the ICTY. Going to --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking, no speaking at an audible volume. The
20 rules are clear. Mr. Mladic, one more word aloud and you'll know what
21 the consequences will be. And please, it's not the public gallery that
22 you are -- have to stay attention to but rather to what happens in this
23 courtroom.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 31330
1 Q. These Dutch soldiers. I'm going to read you an extract from the
2 statement of one of them, Martijn Mulder. It's an ICTY statement taken
3 in October 1995.
4 MS. PACK: Can we have it on the screen. It's 65 ter 31980.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before this document leaves the screen, it's
6 not -- is it the Prosecution's position that the witness was part of this
7 police that escorted the people to Zvornik?
8 MS. PACK: Yes. And I think he testified that he was a passenger
9 in the United Nations APC that travelled from Bratunac to Zvornik on the
10 morning of the 14th July.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But not that he was one of those listed here.
12 MS. PACK: No, he's not on that list.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MS. PACK: No, that's -- his name isn't amongst that list, but he
15 indeed confirmed that the police were engaged in the escort of Muslim
16 refugees --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
18 MS. PACK: -- and that was what he did.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
20 MS. PACK: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. You were about to read from the
22 statement given by one of the Dutch soldiers, which we have not yet on
23 our screens.
24 MS. PACK: And actually perhaps I may assist His Honour
25 Judge Moloto just with the previous exhibit. But that page, under the
Page 31331
1 heading "Reception," there was a list of names. As I understand it,
2 those names are of those of military police that were on duty that day
3 there Bratunac in that location. But not the list of those who were
4 escorting the convoy from Bratunac to Zvornik. I hope that assists.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We still need the B/C/S version of this statement.
6 Yes.
7 Could you identify the pages to the extent you've not done that
8 yes.
9 MS. PACK: Yes, of course. B/C/S page 12 and the English
10 page 11.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that we only have seven pages in this
13 document. Could you ...
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: But I'll check myself as well.
16 MS. PACK: My apologies. Perhaps I've got it -- yes, I do
17 apologise. It's page 4 in the English. My mistake.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And in the B/C/S?
19 MS. PACK: And in the B/C/S, Your Honours, it's also page 4. I
20 do apologise. Thank you.
21 Q. And just while that's coming up, let me just ask you this just to
22 finish up on the last exhibit. It's not in front of you now. But the
23 list of names for 14th July, those were the men who were on duty, right,
24 in Bratunac on the 14th July, the list that you saw there. Is that
25 accurate, do you recall, in the previous exhibit? I can bring it up
Page 31332
1 again, but if you can't recall it ...
2 A. What was here, just now?
3 MS. PACK: Your Honours, in fairness, I should bring it up
4 because that way --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think the witness referred to what he saw.
6 The short list handwritten you saw a minute ago, any question about that?
7 Ms. --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't read it. I just saw that
9 it says desk something.
10 MS. PACK: Your Honours in fairness I should do it because
11 His Honour Judge Moloto asked. I just would prefer if I -- if I do put
12 it to the witness, so I --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please get it back on the screen.
14 MS. PACK: I'm very grateful. If we can just go back to the
15 prior exhibit. It was D00285. And we're just asking for pages 14 in
16 English, 17 in B/C/S.
17 Q. And then we'll go back to this document I'm showing you now.
18 Let's just deal with these names here. Can you see the names?
19 The list there, under the heading "Reception."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have the wrong page again in -- we have
21 English instead of --
22 MS. PACK: B/C/S --
23 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in English, right?
25 MS. PACK: Let me --
Page 31333
1 Q. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And it's the wrong page as well.
3 MS. PACK: That's the wrong page in the B/C/S. There's the right
4 page in the English, and the B/C/S will be coming up in a moment. Just
5 to remind, it's page 17 of the B/C/S. And you have it there, 14 of the
6 English.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We still haven't got it.
8 MS. PACK: Can we just go ... this is D00285, yes, that's
9 correct, and we're going back -- not 17, it's page -- of the English it's
10 page 14. B/C/S is page 17.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's now wait for a second.
12 MS. PACK: We'll get there. There we go.
13 Q. Just look under the heading, please, "Reception," and there's a
14 list of names. Now you can tell me, you can confirm this, that that list
15 of names is the names of those members of the military police who were
16 then on duty in Bratunac; is that right? Yes? Under the heading
17 "Reception."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it separate from the police who were engaged in the escort of
20 the Muslim prisoners; yes? Yes?
21 A. I guess so as long as it's written that way. If it's
22 "reception," then they're at the reception.
23 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I hope that clarifies. Sorry it took so
24 long to get the exhibit up.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Although since you started speaking when the
Page 31334
1 previous translation was still continuing, the beginning of your question
2 is not clearly on the record.
3 Could you perhaps repeat those words. You see that?
4 MS. PACK: Yes, of course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Page 36, line 15.
6 MS. PACK: Yes. And my -- first bit of my question: That's
7 separate from the police who were engaged in the escort of the Muslim
8 prisoners.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, therefore, the question was whether
10 those who escorted the Muslim refugees are not necessarily the ones or
11 even perhaps not the ones which are listed here, which as was put to you,
12 were at the reception in Bratunac?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just know who was with me
14 in this escort. Now, as for these persons it could have been some of
15 them. Who knows? I mean, things turn out the way they are ordered. Now
16 how can I say with whether somebody was there or not there. I cannot say
17 anything for sure about anyone.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. PACK: Thank you. If we can bring up the next 65 ter number,
20 31980. We're back on the witness statement of the Dutch UN member, and
21 we're going please to the English page 4 and also the B/C/S page 4.
22 Q. You can see -- you can read while I'm reading this, you can read
23 this statement yourself.
24 MS. PACK: From the third paragraph in the B/C/S and the third
25 paragraph in the English on page 4.
Page 31335
1 Q. He says, describing his time to Konjevic Polje:
2 "We then had to get into the APC and the soldier, who later went
3 to sit on the commander's seat, told us to open the hatch of the APC and
4 take our places at the top of the vehicle. He made this clear to us
5 through hand gestures. He also told us in a mixture of English and
6 Serbo-Croatian that we had to shoot at any Muslims. De Bruine and I were
7 given a Kalashnikov each and we also got a flak jacket and a helmet. The
8 APC then headed off in the direction of Potocari."
9 These Dutch soldiers - this is my question - they sat on the top
10 of the APC; yes?
11 A. They were not sitting on the APC and no one gave them any kind of
12 rifle, and what you said just now, nothing, nothing, nobody forced them.
13 Q. You gave them a helmet, flakjacket?
14 A. They found everything that was there. I didn't know where things
15 were and I couldn't do anything. They knew the APC better than we did.
16 They took what they wanted from the APC. They opened this cover, a
17 double cover thing, and then they watched the Muslims who were coming --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer hear the
19 witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness, Witness -- could you --
21 Witness. One second, please.
22 Could you please repeat what you said and speak slowly. You
23 said:
24 "They took what they wanted from the APC. They opened this
25 cover, and they watched the Muslims who were coming ..."
Page 31336
1 And could you please repeat what you said after that. So they
2 watched Muslims who are coming and then what you did say.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lady said that we gave them
4 Kalashnikovs. I just had my own automatic rifle. I couldn't give it to
5 anyone because I needed it. We were in danger, I and these two men, just
6 like everybody else there. All the people who were there. But I haven't
7 read all of this, so I cannot -- well, what it says here is that we
8 forced them, something ...
9 MS. PACK:
10 Q. Let me just divide it up. So they had helmets, blue helmets;
11 yes.
12 A. I really do not remember. I swear. Whether they had blue ones
13 or whatever. If they took it from the APC, then they may have. I cannot
14 remember exactly what they had on their heads since they got out of the
15 jeep.
16 Q. And what you say is that they opened the hatch themselves and
17 went up; right? Is that your evidence?
18 A. Yes, they were not on the APC, they were in the APC.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
20 microphone, says the interpreter.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please speak into the microphone.
22 The usher will assist you in addressing. So don't speak too much in the
23 direction of Ms. Pack but keep an eye on the microphone that the
24 interpreters can hear you. Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm used to looking at the
Page 31337
1 person that I'm speaking to.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- that's fully understood. At the
3 same time, we don't want to lose your words, your testimony, so therefore
4 try hard to speak into the microphone. And perhaps it could even be a
5 little bit more adjusted from here to the left so that there's a better
6 chance that the sound reaches the interpreters. Yes.
7 Ms. Pack [Realtime transcript read in error "Mr. McCloskey] if
8 you would repeat your last question or put the next question to the
9 witness.
10 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think I said Mr. McCloskey, but -- as
12 it appears the transcript.
13 Yes, please proceed.
14 MS. PACK: I'll repeat the question.
15 Q. And what you say is that they opened the hatch themselves and
16 went up, right, is that your evidence? That's my question to you.
17 A. Yes, yes. Because to tell you the truth, I didn't even know how
18 to open it.
19 Q. Okay. I'll read the next few paragraphs.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But before we do so, are you telling us that in that
21 stolen UN vehicle where you were armed that they just did what they
22 wished to do and it was not under your control? Is that your evidence?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even consider them to be
24 some kind of enemy. That's why I had no need whatsoever. I mean, if
25 that's what you mean. I didn't consider them to be the enemy so that I
Page 31338
1 would make them do this or that or the other thing. I mean, I don't
2 know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I leave it to that.
4 Please next question.
5 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Next part of the statement:
7 "About 1 kilometre after having left Konjevici and heading in the
8 direction of Bratunac, the APC turned off the main road and drove
9 directly into enemy woodlands where there were many armed Muslims."
10 I'm just reading it. You can read it yourself.
11 "We drove around that area for about 45 minutes, de Bruine sat on
12 the top of the APC the whole time. So did I except for the last bit.
13 "It would have been much better for our own safety to ride in the
14 APC with the hatch down. Driving through the woodlands while sitting on
15 the top of the APC was really very dangerous for us because we were
16 acting as a target for the Muslims. There was no point in sitting on the
17 top of the APC. It only made you vulnerable.
18 "While we are driving around, the BSA gunner said that we had to
19 point our weapons in the same direction as his 50 calibre. We did not
20 see any Muslims and therefore we did not have to shoot."
21 Question: You agree that these UN soldiers were in a vulnerable
22 position sitting on the top of the APC.
23 A. First of all, none of what you said just now is correct.
24 Absolutely nothing. Except for that we went for a 1 kilometre up there.
25 You say that had they seen Muslims and later -- I mean, had they seen
Page 31339
1 them, they would have killed all of us from the road, Bratunac, towards
2 Bratunac, from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. We did not turn off at all
3 except for when they asked that we go back. No Muslims, no armed
4 Muslims. They didn't see any. That's number one.
5 Number two: We did not turn off the road at all and the ride did
6 not take 45 minutes. Now, what else was it that we said? If you could
7 take things one at a time and then I'll tell you, because right now I
8 cannot remember all of that. And also, gentlemen, they were not on top
9 of the APC. They were in the APC all the time. They were standing on
10 those seats, like this. You see? So he could have lowered his head just
11 like I could. I did not order him to do anything, and I didn't know how
12 to. I didn't know how to say anything in English. I really don't know
13 how to say all of this to you.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
15 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say. All of
17 this is not correct. We did not consider them to be our prisoners. We
18 did not consider them to be some kind of enemy. As if I would be taking
19 a ride with him just like that if he were my enemy, God forbid.
20 MS. PACK:
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. You must understand that there was this man in the police, an
23 Englishman. I don't know. When I brought him fish from my own children,
24 he spent the night with us, slept with us, watched TV with us. Why don't
25 you bring him to testify?
Page 31340
1 Q. Pause there, please. Pause there, please.
2 Now let's just go back to these Dutch soldiers.
3 MS. PACK: I'd like to just bring up another statement if I may,
4 65 ter 31981, which is the last of the two -- the second of the two Dutch
5 soldiers ICTY statement. Page 8 of the English, page 8 of the B/C/S.
6 De Bruine.
7 I'm just going to read one small extract. It's in the middle of
8 the page in the B/C/S. Fifth paragraph down in the B/C/S. Bottom
9 paragraph in the English at page 8.
10 Q. "We drove in the direction of Potocari. At one stage Mulder went
11 and sat inside the vehicle."
12 Well, let me just start with -- the preceding sentence will
13 probably put it in context.
14 "We were told to sit above armour and one of the fighters gave us
15 flak jackets and helmets."
16 Next paragraph:
17 "We drove in the direction of Potocari. At one stage Mulder went
18 and sat inside the vehicle. I stayed on top. When we had driven
19 500 metres from the junction, we turned down a side path. We drove
20 around this area for about 20 minutes. The gunner instructed me to aim
21 my firearm," that's the next page in English, "in the direction indicated
22 by him. He said that there were Muslim fighters walking around there. I
23 did not aim my fire-arm. About 20 minutes later, we arrived back at the
24 T-junction. When we arrived back, one of the BSA fighters said that we
25 had now taken part in a Serbian patrol. At this, the fighters laughed
Page 31341
1 loudly."
2 Does this jog your memory? You remember you or Jankovic saying
3 something like this, finding this situation amusing with the Dutch
4 soldiers?
5 A. No, neither I nor Jankovic said that. This is not true. I'm
6 sorry.
7 Q. Let me finally -- this is the last issue. Let me take you to the
8 evidence of a witness, RM257, a protected witness.
9 MS. PACK: And I'd ask that what I'm going to ask to be shown is
10 not broadcast. This is 65 ter 3 --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's -- just not to look at the document or
12 not to have even in open session the testimony of the witness referred
13 to?
14 MS. PACK: It can be referred to. It wouldn't reveal his
15 identity.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I --
17 MS. PACK: It's just simply not to go out as an abundance of
18 caution. It isn't under seal.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope -- it's not under seal?
20 MS. PACK: It's not. And --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then it should not be broadcast. And --
22 MS. PACK: It's 65 ter 31998. It is not an exhibit in this case.
23 It is the prior testimony of a protected witness in this case in other
24 proceedings. Hence, my caution.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
Page 31342
1 MS. PACK: Thank you. I'll read it out when it has come up. We
2 want page 2, please.
3 Q. I'll read this slowly. He's asked, this witness:
4 "From your position on that hill --" he's describing being in the
5 woods along the road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.
6 "Q. From your position on that hill, can you tell the Trial
7 Chamber what you saw and heard?
8 "A. From that position you could hear Serbs calling over
9 loud-speakers for us to surrender. I saw an UNPROFOR personnel carrier
10 with blue helmets on them, so we immediately recognised that this was the
11 UNPROFOR. At one point, when they were calling out to us, they said,
12 come down, don't be afraid. UNPROFOR is here to make it possible for you
13 to be escorted to Tuzla.
14 "Q. What did you decide to do then, sir?
15 "A. Well, before we saw the UNPROFOR personnel carrier, nobody
16 even thought about surrendering. I mean, why would we escape to the
17 woods otherwise? But after this APC, it was my impression, well, the
18 UNPROFOR is here, I don't think that they will kill us so easily. I
19 thought that there was some hope, because I was tired and because of all
20 the horrible things while crossing through the woods. I had then asked
21 my father and my brother to go with me so that we can surrender. I think
22 they gave us two ultimatums. One was at 12.00, and then the second one
23 at 2.00 was when we decided to go down and surrender because the
24 personnel carrier was constantly going up and down there to let people
25 know that it was UNPROFOR, to impress that upon people better."
Page 31343
1 Help me with this, please, Mr. Petrovic. Your purpose in driving
2 up and down the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in a UN APC with Dutch
3 soldiers on top with their blue helmets on was to impress upon the Muslim
4 men and boys in the woods that the UN were there, that they were safe;
5 right?
6 A. You'd have to ask Nikolic. He was the one talking to them. You
7 understand? We just put them on the APC as we had been ordered. We
8 drove them and we drove them back. Everybody could see that. Now what's
9 written here, why would I make him go into the woods for 45 minutes?
10 That way to Bratunac is just 2 kilometres. We went up there and
11 returned. And even before, there had been hundreds -- or perhaps 100
12 Muslims already standing there who had surrendered.
13 And those two UN soldiers, they could see when we started off
14 from the intersection towards Bratunac, they saw me throwing water at the
15 people. They saw the people asking me for help. They saw these people
16 carrying others on stretchers, stepping on mines, and all those -- those
17 two young men who were there, they could see it all. I didn't know
18 anything. My job was only to drive those two fellows from the UN as I
19 had been ordered and to bring them back. Now what Nikolic and they
20 agreed between them, that's their problem.
21 MS. PACK: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question just as follow-up to the
24 previous answer.
25 For how long were you driving in the APC with the two UN soldiers
Page 31344
1 in that area?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 2 kilometres up and down. We
3 drove slowly, as Nikolic told us, because they wanted to take a good look
4 at everything. So we drove slowly for 2 kilometres and back. I don't
5 know how long it took. Maybe it was the 45 minutes they mention. But
6 that we took them into the woods, that's not true. Unless they think of
7 that road as the woods. That’s how it was then… even the street was not
8 as it should be, everything was pell mell. Maybe to them it seemed like
9 the woods because there were woods on both sides of the road and that's
10 why they thought that we were driving them into the woods. How would we
11 dare to? We wouldn't dare because I was responsible for those two men
12 while they were with me, and it was my responsibility to bring him back
13 safe and sound. If Mr. Nikolic had entrusted them to me, I had to bring
14 them back safe and sound, even if I -- if -- if it cost me my life.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One additional question.
16 If it was your duty to bring them back safely, why didn't you do
17 that right away instead of driving forth and back?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wanted it. They wanted us to
19 give them a ride. I don't know where exactly. I couldn't read their
20 thoughts. And to bring them back when they were ready. That's what we
21 did.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, you just -- sorry I -- thank you. I heard
23 your answer. But they wanted to be carried back. But that is not what
24 you did. You went forth and back with the APC carrier.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. We only went up there.
Page 31345
1 And when they told us to turn back, we turned back immediately. There
2 was no going back and forth. I guarantee that with my life. We didn't
3 go up and down, not even twice. We only went once and returned. They
4 got off, got into their jeep, and left.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And why, then, was it necessary that you drove
7 the UN vehicle? They could have done that by themselves.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. First of all, I
9 wasn't the one driving; it was Mirko Jankovic. If they had wanted to
10 drive the vehicle, of course they would have been allowed to. It was
11 their vehicle. Maybe they were afraid. I don't know what they were
12 thinking. But they didn't ask us to drive. If they had asked, why would
13 I refuse? I wasn't the one driving. I couldn't even drive it.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I also have a few questions in this respect for you.
16 The road from -- the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje is an asphalt
17 road?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you earlier said that they may have been
20 mistaken by being in the woods because it was not a proper road you were
21 driving on. Do you remember that you told us that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said there were woods on both
23 sides of the road. When you go about 50 metres up --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, you said: "It was not really a proper road."
25 That's what you said. And I'm asking you about that. Because I do
Page 31346
1 understand that the -- the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road is an asphalt
2 road. So what made you say that it was not really a proper road?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a proper road from
4 Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. I don't remember saying that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll verify that because you are recorded as having
6 said when explaining that they -- it may have been the 45 minutes, which
7 is pretty long for what you describe has happened, and that, as you said,
8 they took them into the woods, that's not true. Because you said "unless
9 they think of that road as the woods. It was not really a proper road."
10 That is what you are recorded to have said.
11 And do you want us to verify that? Because we have an audio
12 recording of every word you spoke. So if you say, I didn't say that,
13 we'll verify that. But if you said it, I'm asking you for an explanation
14 as to why you said it was not really a proper road which, as a matter of
15 fact, is more in line with what they said in their statements, more in
16 line than with your statement that you just took the road and nothing
17 else.
18 Do you have an explanation for that or do you still want us to
19 verify whether you spoke those words: "...it was not really a proper
20 road"? Because then we'll do that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't express myself
22 correctly. What I meant was that it's not a really good quality road and
23 that's why they might have suspected that it was a bad road along which
24 we took them. That's what I meant. Otherwise, it's an asphalt road from
25 Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. And there had been shelling along that road
Page 31347
1 and maybe that's why I thought that it's not really a good road, like you
2 have here.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said "it may have taken 45 minutes."
4 Now, if you drive at a very low speed, 20 kilometres an hour, for
5 example, which is approximately the speed of a bicycle, then 45 minutes
6 would cover 15 kilometres, which doesn't fit well in what you are telling
7 us, unless you explain to us ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I said what I said. I
9 don't know for how long the vehicle was moving, how long it took us to
10 cover those 2 kilometres and drive back. That's why I stressed it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you also don't -- do not exclude it was
12 the 45 minutes, because what you said was "maybe it was the 45 minutes
13 they mention."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what they said, that they
15 were driving them around for 45 minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on the road. Somewhere off the
18 road. I'm telling you how long the vehicle was moving, there and back.
19 I cannot properly assess the speed or how long it took.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you accepted that it was possible that
21 they were right in saying that it was 45 minutes. That's how I
22 understand the line which reads: "Maybe it was the 45 minutes they
23 mention." Do you have an explanation for accepting that for -- as a
24 possibility?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps if you drive slowly
Page 31348
1 those 2 kilometres, if it's possible that it takes 45 minutes, it's
2 possible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I maintain that we never went
5 off the road anywhere. We didn't turn anywhere.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is only possible if you have an average speed of
7 3 kilometres an hour, which is difficult to imagine as the speed of such
8 a vehicle.
9 I have another question. You said: Of course, they could have
10 driven the car if they had would have wished to do that. But you also
11 testified that the car was stolen.
12 Now, how to reconcile that the UN people were free to do whatever
13 they wanted with that car, with that vehicle, and at the same time
14 telling us that it was stolen, because if it's stolen that at least
15 suggests to me that you've taken control of that, in this case, vehicle.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Nobody told us
17 anything. Nikolic could have said, Give them the vehicle, let them take
18 a ride in it. As for me and Mirko Jankovic, we had nothing against it.
19 Whatever Nikolic ordered us, that's what it had to be.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And what did he order you in this respect?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To have them get into the APC and
22 give them a ride the way they wished: To drive them up there and bring
23 them back.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did he also say, Let them drive if they wished to
25 and let them take the vehicle if they wished to?
Page 31349
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't say that. We didn't
2 say that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So allowing them to take the vehicle and allowing
4 them to drive it themselves was not what was within your orders.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. Nobody was ordered us that.
6 If they had, we would have done it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then one last question. You've told us that what
8 Nikolic said is all -- not true about this whole story. You also said:
9 "I know that Nikolic presented many untruths in The Hague and
10 made groundless accusations against other people."
11 Could you tell us what other lies Nikolic would have presented
12 here? So apart from this testimony, apart from this story about the
13 drive in the UN vehicle, megaphones, et cetera. So apart from that, what
14 other lies did he tell?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I killed those six people
16 and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's part of this story. But apart from this
18 story, did he tell in any other ways on other subjects any lies?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, you mean overall, during his
20 trial?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, during his trial, anywhere -- you said he told
22 many untruths. So apart from, again, this -- these events, what else did
23 he tell the Tribunal which was not true?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he lied about everything that
25 concerns me, for instance.
Page 31350
1 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there. In relation to these events or in
2 relations to other events?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These events that we've been
4 discussing.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm exclusively focusing on other events where he
6 may have not told the truth.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That must be about something I
8 heard in his testimony or statement that I've read. Maybe that's what I
9 meant.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any specifics?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember now when I
12 was reading the statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Reading whose statement? Your own statement or the
14 statement given by Mr. Nikolic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Momir's statement. I read his
16 statement in a newspaper called the "Dnevni Avaz" when I first learned
17 what he had said here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And you did not re-read that statement in its
19 original form at any later stage?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did in the newspapers.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do I understand that all comments you give
22 on Nikolic telling lies is based on what you read in newspapers only, not
23 knowing exactly what he would have said?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So if you say --
Page 31351
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From his statement, as I read it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: In the newspapers? You never read any statement or
3 any testimony by Mr. Nikolic apart from what you read in newspapers?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did in the newspapers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You never saw any statement, apart from that.
6 Then this takes me to another matter which is: Your statement
7 was taken, you were interviewed in -- could you tell us exactly when that
8 was? Or at least approximately when it was?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. I can't
10 remember.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Was it a year ago? Was it in spring? Was it in
12 summer? Was it in autumn?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which statement do you mean? The
14 one I gave to these lawyers here?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I have given a number of
17 statements.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The statements --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps a couple of months ago.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember who interviewed you when a statement
21 was taken for this case, the statement you attested to at the beginning
22 of this session?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A grey-haired man. An elderly man,
24 grey-haired man. I don't know his name.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And when was that approximately? Was it more than a
Page 31352
1 year ago?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was only a couple of months ago.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And where was that interview held?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my home.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And did you -- was it then put on paper what you
6 said?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was probably recorded. It was
8 probably noted down in a statement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was that done when you were interviewed or
10 was that done later or don't you remember?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I answered whatever he asked
12 me. I answered his question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, I do understand that. Did they come to you
14 twice or only once or three times or four times?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Once. Now, you signed the statement. Did you sign
17 the statement immediately after you had been interviewed or?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right after the interview.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So you were interviewed, they wrote that down, and
20 then you signed it. Is that what happened?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read the statement and signed it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Immediately after you had been interviewed?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I put to you that - and it's -- it's not in my
25 version, but I think the interview has been recorded as conducted in
Page 31353
1 October 2013, which is far more than a year ago --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can have D894 again on the screen in
3 both versions, especially the last page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, now, here it says that you signed your
5 statement in June 2014, which is some -- some far less than a year ago.
6 And it also states that the statement was taken in October 2013, so there
7 is an interval of some eight months between being interviewed and signing
8 the statement.
9 Now, you told us a minute ago that it was all done on -- at the
10 same occasion. Could you explain to us why you attested to this
11 statement dated the 14th of October and signed some eight months later?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I remember. I
13 don't remember any different. 6 June that we see here; that's my
14 handwriting and my signature. That's what I remember.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, it states on the cover page
16 that the interview was held in October 2013.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: So when you said it was all on the same day, you
20 may, Well, as a matter of fact -- or do you still insist that it all
21 happened on the same day?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I remember this last time.
23 They came on the 6th of June, 2014, when I signed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you give that interview before you
25 testified in the Karadzic case, or did you give this interview after you
Page 31354
1 testified in the Karadzic case?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After.
3 JUDGE ORIE: After. Were there any things that bothered you in
4 the Karadzic testimony which you then corrected or which you thought
5 would need further explanation, or was the Karadzic interview -- Karadzic
6 testimony, was that totally irrelevant for the statement you gave to the
7 Mladic Defence?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
9 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber, Ms. Pack, does not know when the
10 witness testified in Karadzic. Could you inform the Chamber about
11 that --
12 MS. PACK: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- because you started -- well --
14 MS. PACK: January --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- we should know -- January 2014.
16 MS. PACK: 2014.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have no further questions for the witness.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before -- Judge Moloto has a -- one or more
20 questions for you.
21 Please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Petrovic, is it your testimony, really, that
23 while you were in the middle of war, you came across two strange Dutch
24 soldiers whom asked you to give them a ride and you just gave them a
25 ride?
Page 31355
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were there. We received
2 orders to give them a ride. We brought them back. And I've already said
3 everything.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but are you seriously telling us that that's
5 the kind of order you got in the middle of the war: Give these men a
6 ride, whom you didn't know, and bring them back?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. To drive them there,
8 bring them back, all of that. As I've said, all of it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to entertain them?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's no entertainment
11 there. People, there's no entertainment in war. You have to respect the
12 individuals who are there. They were an international unit and whatever.
13 They -- I mean, we did not feel that they were our enemies. They can
14 also confirm that, who are heaven's sake.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would have then one very short follow-up
17 question. Talking about respect, which I appreciate, seems not to be
18 fully consistent with stealing cars from them. Do you have an
19 explanation as why you are so respectful to them and at the same time
20 cars are stolen from them, or at least this car?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what? That vehicle that
22 we brought, it's people from the field that brought that, and that
23 vehicle was there and the police was guarding it. When Nikolic ordered
24 to have this vehicle ignited, we didn't know how to do that. And
25 Mirko Jankovic tried to get it going all day. Do you understand that?
Page 31356
1 We are not the ones who stole the vehicle from these two men. This had
2 arrived from the positions where there had been fighting. Do you
3 understand that? And then it was brought there and it was left there
4 where we were. And then we took over this vehicle the next day on the
5 orders issued by the gentleman. We went there, and then we came back,
6 and that's that. We're not thieves to steal vehicles. Who am I to steal
7 a vehicle?
8 JUDGE ORIE: And you said this had arrived from positions where
9 there had been fighting. Do you know anything about under what
10 circumstances the vehicle was stolen?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know. I wasn't up
12 there. I don't know how all of that happened and whatever.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So whether it was where there was fighting, you
14 don't know.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the vehicle was, say, in
16 Jadar, up there, wherever, I don't know. I mean, how far away that is I
17 don't really know exactly. Do you understand what I'm saying? That
18 vehicle was brought from that area of the 3rd Battalion, where the area
19 of responsibility of the 3rd Battalion was. It wasn't that we stole that
20 vehicle, we policemen.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm sorry, I have another follow-up question.
23 Some minutes ago you said we had to respect the individuals who
24 are there. They were an international unit. How do you knew that, that
25 these two men were from an international unit?
Page 31357
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they came in a UN jeep and
2 they wore uniforms. That uniform that they had ...
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In your statement, and I read it for you, you
4 said:
5 "As we drove towards Konjevic Polje, I cannot say exactly where,
6 but I know that this was before Konjevic Polje. I noticed two men in
7 civilian clothes as they came out from behind a small hill on the left
8 side."
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I withdraw my question at this point in time and
11 come back to that later. I think we should take the break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, how much time would you still need after the
14 break?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe about ten
16 minutes or so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break now. We are late already.
18 We take a break and will resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
23 courtroom.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, if I may before the witness is with us.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
Page 31358
1 MR. LUKIC: I have short update on our expert witnesses.
2 Demographer was filed today.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's good to hear, yes.
4 MR. LUKIC: Demolition expert and military expert will be
5 finalized until the end of this week, as it was announced. Ballistics
6 expertise we already submitted to the Prosecution, only we have to
7 arrange the numbers since the numbers are not correct for our case. And
8 history expertise and communication expertise should be done in B/C/S
9 before 14th of February, so in five days, and then we'll give it to the
10 Prosecution immediately and we'll submit it for the translation. And we
11 do not have any news for pathologist yet.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you at least for this update.
13 Mr. Lukic, you may understand that most likely the Chamber will continue
14 to push for anything we have not yesterday received or where there is
15 unclarity.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll now -- Mr. Stojanovic, if you have any further
18 questions for the witness in re-examination, please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few questions, Your Honour.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, first of all, I'd like to ask you
22 whether have you any personal knowledge about how this APC arrived in the
23 command of the Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know at any point in time what happened to the APC later?
Page 31359
1 A. Nothing. Except that we went to Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have
4 65 ter 31979 in e-court, please.
5 Q. Mr. Petrovic, before you, you've got the second statement of the
6 witness that the Prosecution asked you about while putting this witness's
7 testimony to you. The date is the 12th of May, 2000.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 4, both in
9 B/C/S and in English, so it's this document. Could the Chamber please
10 focus on the last paragraph of the English version. And as for B/C/S,
11 I'd ask that we move on to the fifth page, the first paragraph.
12 Q. So, Mr. Petrovic, this witness, five years after the statement
13 that was put to you today, provided a statement to this Tribunal about
14 what happened, and this is what he says. Once I've read out the relevant
15 part, I'm going to put a few questions to you.
16 "We waited at the roadblock at Konjevici. A UN APC driven by
17 Serb soldiers arrived there and offered to take us to Potocari. Instead
18 of taking us to Potocari, the Serb soldiers in the UN APC drove us in the
19 woods near by Konjevic; thereafter, they dropped us at the roadblock. We
20 were still at Konjevic when a UN Mercedes, driven by our fellow soldiers,
21 came over there. They picked us and drove in the direction of Nova Kasaba."
22 Now this kind of testimony about what happened, is this closer to
23 your own recollection about how things developed in relation to these two
24 members of UNPROFOR?
25 A. We waited at the roadblock. We did not drive them to Potocari
Page 31360
1 and we did not offer that. We were just told that they'd be taken for a
2 2-kilometre ride over there and then come back. No mention of Potocari
3 and they never asked for it.
4 Q. All right. The next thing that is stated here is:
5 "Instead of taking us to Potocari, the Serb soldiers in a UN APC
6 drove us in the woods near Konjevici."
7 Now my question: This part of the road from Konjevic towards
8 Bratunac, is it wooded? Are there woods on both sides?
9 A. On the left-hand side, well, there are more houses now. I mean,
10 more houses were built by now. But on the left and right-hand side,
11 there was a woodland and -- do you understand what I'm saying? But there
12 was just this road that we took. There was just that one road that we
13 drove on and I’m saying for sure, 100 per cent, that we did not go off
14 that road at all, and we took that same road back. We did not take any
15 macadam road, and there was no asphalt then, that would go off this road…
16 Q. I've been told by my colleague, did you say that it was macadam
17 or not asphalt? What was it that you said?
18 A. You mean what I said just now?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. The road that we took as we were moving in the UN vehicle, it was
21 an asphalt road for 2 kilometres, up and down. So I just said that -- I
22 mean, during the bombing, then there were mines, and this and that and
23 the other thing, the road was not good. It wasn't good asphalt, not like
24 over here now, when the situation is normal. So the road was damaged.
25 Macadam? No, we did not take any macadam roads left or right.
Page 31361
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are recorded as having said: "Macadam,
2 there was no asphalt then ..." Would you like us to verify that in the
3 audio whether that is what you said or not? We'd gladly do so because we
4 don't want to have any wrong recording of your words, but you're recorded
5 until now as having said: "Macadam, there was no asphalt then ..."
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, go ahead. Verify. But I
7 mean, I don't know. I mean, that's my opinion, that there was asphalt.
8 There's asphalt to this day. I mean, verify it. Let's see what it was
9 that I said.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but did you use the word "macadam"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I said it just like I said it
12 just now, that the road was not good, so I did not express myself well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 And there's one other question. You said you were ordered to
15 take them for 2 kilometres. That is -- let me read it then.
16 "We were just told that they'd be taken for a 2-kilometre ride
17 over there and then come back."
18 Who told you to do that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nikolic told us, Mr. Nikolic told
20 us that we take these two men from the UN to where they want to go and
21 that they should return when they want. And we went for 2 kilometres
22 roughly and then --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
24 it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what you just said. You just said:
Page 31362
1 "We were just told that they'd be taken for a 2-kilometre ride
2 over there and then come back."
3 That's different from what you now say; that is, that you'd take
4 them wherever they wanted to go and that they insisted on returning. You
5 said a minute ago that you were ordered to take them to a 2-kilometre
6 drive and then come back.
7 Have you any explanation as for the -- the difference in what you
8 told us earlier and now again and what you said about being instructed to
9 take them for a 2-kilometre ride?
10 No -- no speaking aloud. Mr. Mladic. No speaking aloud.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't explain it any other way.
12 That's what I meant every time, when I was speaking. Now, I mean, they
13 should be driven for 2 kilometres -- it's not that the order given to me
14 was that they should be driven for 2 kilometres. Mr. Nikolic said the
15 soldiers should be taken for as long as they want and then we drove them
16 those 2 kilometres and then they wanted to come back and we brought them
17 back. That's what I've been saying all along.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If they would not have told you after 2 kilometres
19 to return, what would have happened? You would just have been driven on?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what we were told.
21 For as long as they want to go, for as far as they want to go, that we
22 should drive them to there. Had they wanted 1 kilometre, it would have
23 been 1; had they wanted 3, then it would have been 3. We would have done
24 that and returned them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: 10 kilometres you would done as well?
Page 31363
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, also. Because that's what we
2 were told. We were told to drive them for as long as they wanted. We
3 weren't told a specific number of kilometres, you see.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain to us again what was the purpose
5 of that, or don't you know?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. It's
7 probably they who know what they wanted. I cannot remember any of that,
8 that ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean by "they," UN; or do you mean by "they,"
10 Nikolic and others.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Nikolic and the UN soldiers.
12 They should know. I mean, what they wanted. Why they wanted to take
13 that road. Unless they reached some kind of agreement beforehand with
14 Nikolic. I don't know anything about that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Just one more question related to this text. The witness says
18 that upon returning to Konjevic - you can see that in front of you:
19 "A UN Mercedes arrived driven by our fellow soldiers ... they
20 picked them up and drove them in the direction of Nova Kasaba."
21 This part of this testimony, does this correspond to your own
22 recollection; namely, that they took a different UN vehicle and left
23 Konjevic Polje?
24 A. Well, I cannot say for sure now whether it was a Mercedes. Do
25 you understand that? But they did take some vehicle, yes. Now whether
Page 31364
1 it was a Mercedes, I didn't understand. I --
2 Q. Did any of you give them any kind of trouble? Did you try to
3 prevent them in any way from leaving the APC and, after that,
4 Konjevic Polje?
5 A. No, no one, nothing. They did whatever it was that they wanted
6 to do. Nothing else.
7 Q. Thank you. And I'm going to conclude with the following
8 question: On that day, did you have any conflict with any of the members
9 of UN or UNPROFOR?
10 A. I did not have a conflict with anyone, not with the soldiers, not
11 with those who were being taken prisoner there. No one. No one. That's
12 that.
13 Q. During those days, or on that day, did you have the opportunity
14 of seeing General Mladic anywhere?
15 A. On that day, no, not before that, not after that. I personally
16 did not have an opportunity to meet him.
17 Q. Thank you. And I shall conclude with the following question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, that's now the second time that you
19 say that the following question will conclude your examination. But I
20 take it that you're serious now and it's not in five or six questions
21 from now that you will conclude.
22 So we'll listen to your last question.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. I
24 will conclude with this last question.
25 Q. Mr. Petrovic, tell us, after those few days, except for the 14th
Page 31365
1 which you discussed already, did you at any point use that APC?
2 A. No, except for that time when we were the escort to Zvornik.
3 Q. Thank you very much for answering our questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions?
5 MS. PACK: Your Honour, yes, if I may, just arising from
6 Your Honours' questions of the witness regarding the road.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
8 MS. PACK: Thank you.
9 If we could have Exhibit P10 -- sorry, P01539 on the screen.
10 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pack:
11 Q. Before this comes up, you can help us with this. There were
12 smaller roads, weren't there, going off the main road from Konjevic Polje
13 to Bratunac; yes?
14 A. Yes, there were macadam roads.
15 MS. PACK: Page 21, please. There we are. Page 21. And if we
16 could just enlarge it, I think it might help if we enlarge it a bit
17 around the second -- the middle of the -- the road in effect.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want the road or the photograph?
19 MS. PACK: The map enlarged, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we could look at the map only to start with.
21 MS. PACK: Yes, that would be better. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 That I think is sufficient.
23 Q. Now, this is a map of part of the road from Konjevic Polje, which
24 you can see -- you can't see it on the map but it's up in the north-west
25 of road going all the way to Bratunac. That what's this map shows. You
Page 31366
1 agree with that; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And to the south of this road, these were the woods from which
4 the Muslim men were coming down onto this main road here, going towards
5 Konjevic Polje; yes?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And you can see, just to get our locations right, in the middle
8 of this road here with all this -- the markings on it, which makes it a
9 little bit difficult to see, but by the number 17a, right in the middle
10 of that -- right at the top of that square, reads Sandici, so you can see
11 that just there, to the north of this road there on the map is Sandici;
12 yes? Just to get our locations clear.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, I'm trying to find it at this moment.
14 MS. PACK: Yes, it's the right -- it's written over, I'm afraid.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.
16 MS. PACK: 17a is written over it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What is confusing here is that, of course, on
18 the small map there is a 17a as well but no Sandici next to it, so you
19 should focus on the large map and where it's written 17a, so not the
20 small extract but the large map, larger -- covering the larger area.
21 Do you see at 17a Sandici just written below it, under it,
22 Witness? Can you find it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see it. I see Lolici.
24 MS. PACK:
25 Q. Looking on the road from Lolici going east --
Page 31367
1 JUDGE ORIE: That is to the right.
2 MS. PACK:
3 Q. To the right. And then when you get to the red box, look
4 slightly north of the red box, and Sandici is written there. It's
5 covered up a little bit by the number 17 but there it is.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's where the cursor is at this moment. You see?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, this thing up here?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. PACK:
10 Q. Yes. You can see below the road there a number of smaller roads
11 going off the main road just to the south of the road at Sandici; yes?
12 A. I'm not really an expert. I can't find my way around here.
13 Q. But let me help you with this. To the south of the road, the
14 main road, there are some smaller roads, and one of them goes to
15 Kamenica, and you can see Kamenica there at the very bottom of this map
16 in the middle. Kamenica almost directly in the middle but in the -- in
17 the bottom rows. The cursor is on it now. Got it?
18 A. I see it.
19 Q. Yes. There is a road going from the main road to Kamenica, it's
20 one of the smaller roads off the main roads; yes?
21 A. I see the road here, right.
22 Q. Yup. Now we go back up to -- onto the main road, please, and
23 we're going to drive up to Konjevic Polje, to the intersection, so we go
24 up leftwards, north-west along this road, and we get to another road
25 after --
Page 31368
1 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 Q. -- Lolici. Can you see there's another road after Lolici, and
3 it's in the second square -- from the left, second square down. Full
4 square down. There's another road where it says Kravica. There's a road
5 to the south of the main road -- yes, got it? Perhaps the cursor could
6 find it. It's going up leftwards up the road --
7 A. Lolici are here.
8 Q. Past Kravica, there's a -- the cursor was absolutely right. It
9 was where it says Kravica, there is a road that -- another road to the
10 south of the main road. And that was absolutely right.
11 A. Lolici are here, Kravica is here --
12 Q. No, it's actually the -- it's actually where the cursor is now.
13 It's a river. That's what that reading of Kravica is. Okay. And you
14 can see a road just next to it right off the main road. Got it? Yes?
15 Where the cursor is.
16 A. Yeah, yeah.
17 Q. This road goes to Burnice, yes?
18 A. I see it here.
19 Q. It goes --
20 A. But I don't know these things. I don't know where they.
21 Q. This road, which goes to Burnice, is accessible via an APC, yes?
22 A. I don't know. I didn't take that road. I can't even remember
23 now whether --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come to your point, Ms. Pack, what
25 you intend to demonstrate.
Page 31369
1 MS. PACK:
2 Q. I'm showing you a road off the main road which an APC is capable
3 of travelling down. This could have been the road you went up with those
4 Dutch soldiers, right, in the APC? You would accept that? Not saying it
5 is but it's one of the roads off the main road?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the parties can agree on that, I mean, that
7 there are roads off the main road and, of course, that if the witness is
8 not telling us the truth, that he stayed on the main road. That that
9 could have been one of the roads, of course --
10 MS. PACK: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- is argument rather than anything else. It
12 doesn't bring us to the facts.
13 The witness says, I didn't go on those roads, I don't know
14 whether you could drive with an APC on that. The parties can agree or
15 disagree or you can present whatever evidence, but this is not -- it
16 doesn't bring us anywhere.
17 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I've leave it there. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since the Bench also has no further questions,
19 Mr. Petrovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I would like
20 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
21 answered all the questions that were put to you, were put to you by the
22 parties, were put to you by the Bench, and I would invite to you follow
23 the usher, and I wish you a safe return home again.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
Page 31370
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Can the next witness be escorted in the courtroom.
3 Mr. McCloskey.
4 MS. PACK: With Your Honours' permission, may I leave the court.
5 My friend Mr. Traldi [Overlapping speakers] --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that the Srebrenica team -- when we're
7 leaving Srebrenica, that the Srebrenica team is leaving as well. Yes --
8 MS. PACK: Thank you --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- of course you are.
10 MS. PACK: -- Your Honour.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Javoric. Before you give
14 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
15 is now handed out to you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
17 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: RADE JAVORIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Javoric.
21 Mr. Javoric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You find Mr. Lukic
22 to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
Page 31371
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. For the record, would you tell us slowly your full name.
4 A. Rade Javoric.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Javoric, have you given a statement to the
6 Defence team of General Mladic?
7 A. Yes, I've given a statement.
8 MR. LUKIC: 1D1697 on our screens, please. And we need
9 paragraph 30 on our screens. It's on page -- second-last page of the
10 both versions.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric, during proofing you told me that in
12 this paragraph the first sentence was not properly recorded. I'll read
13 the sentence out in English so the parties can follow.
14 [In English] Paragraph 30 from the statement reads, I quote:
15 "I would say that by refusing to respond to the mobilisation
16 call, the Muslims and the Croats contributed to the creation of
17 ethnically clean units."
18 And you corrected this and you told me that this sentence should
19 read as follows:
20 "I would say that by refusing to respond to the mobilisation
21 call, some Muslims and Croats contributed to the imbalance of ethnic
22 composition of units."
23 A. Precisely correct.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Now that we've made this
25 correction --
Page 31372
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I then suggest that at the end of paragraph 30
2 that a correction should be made as well. I read the last line to you:
3 "Therefore, the places that had to be filled because the Muslims
4 and the Croats had not responded were filled by the Serbs."
5 Should that then read:
6 "Therefore, the places that had to be filled because some Muslims
7 and some Croats had not responded were filled by the Serbs who responded
8 to the mobilisation call"?
9 Should we make that correction as well?
10 MR. LUKIC: We can say, but I think it's understood from the
11 first sentence he was already talking about some Muslims and some Croats,
12 but if you deem it better I [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm just wondering why only in half the
14 paragraph the language should be changed and whereas we leave the same
15 language at a later stage unaffected. That's my concern. That if you
16 start with some and later say "the Muslims" and "the Croats," that may
17 confuse.
18 Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: It certainly might confuse me, Your Honour. But I'd
20 just ask that two things be clarified.
21 First, with -- with the witness. First, as Your Honour
22 suggested, whether the witness's evidence is that some Muslims and Croats
23 responded to the mobilisation, because I would suggest that's distinct
24 from any that might have been in the units beforehand.
25 Second, as there are multiple mobilisations during the time
Page 31373
1 period that the witness is talking about, I'd ask that we get a
2 clarification as to which one is being discussed in this paragraph.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Lukic, would it not be best to resolve these matters right in
5 the beginning so that we know exactly what we are admitting --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- if we are -- if would you tendered the statement.
8 MR. LUKIC: Now being aware that it can -- might create
9 confusion, then we would -- according to your instructions, we would
10 correct the last sentence --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, correct -- I think as a matter of fact, that
12 I --
13 MR. LUKIC: -- and then I would proceed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I wondered whether we would have to correct that as
15 well, because the same language is used there in the same context.
16 And the second issue is that Mr. Traldi --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- would like to have this clarified.
19 But, Mr. Traldi, may I take it that if Mr. Lukic considers your
20 concerns clear enough that you would deal with the matter in
21 cross-examination?
22 MR. TRALDI: I suppose, though I would think that type of
23 ambiguity is most easily addressed before admission.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That's a suggestion and we'll see
25 whether Mr. Lukic will follow that.
Page 31374
1 Then, Witness, the last sentence, and you have it in front of
2 you:
3 "Therefore, the places that had to be filled because the Muslims
4 and the Croats had not responded were filled by the Serbs."
5 Do you want to change that as well in "some Muslims" and "some
6 Croats," or would you rather keep it as it is?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be changed in order to be
8 clearer. Later on I will describe the situation as it was in the initial
9 days of the mobilisation, in the initial stage of the mobilisation,
10 because there were several mobilisation drives, and why the Croats and
11 Muslims did not respond any longer as they had in the past. And then I
12 will come to the resulting ethnic composition.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Likely some questions will be put to you in
14 this respect.
15 With this understanding, I take it that you want to tender the
16 document, Mr. Lukic, after you have asked further questions?
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Should I clarify the mobilisations
18 first?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I leave that to you, whether you want to do it now
20 or whether you would do it later once you have tendered it.
21 MR. LUKIC: Then I'll proceed with the attestation and then after
22 that clarify. Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Javoric, after we've made these
24 corrections to paragraph 30, is the remaining part of your statement
25 recorded properly? Is it exactly what you said to the Defence team of
Page 31375
1 General Mladic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What you presented as your knowledge in this statement, is it
4 truthful and accurate?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I were to put to you the same questions today, would you
7 substantially answer the same?
8 A. Yes, for the most part.
9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, now we would tender the statement of
10 Mr. Javoric, 1D1697, into the evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01697 receives Exhibit D895,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D895 is admitted.
15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, with your leave I would read short
16 statement summary and then proceed with some questions. I don't know --
17 MR. TRALDI: Can I just ask one clarification for the record
18 beforehand from Mr. Lukic.
19 When Mr. Lukic asked about what the witness was presenting as his
20 knowledge, was he asking about the entire statement or just the parts
21 that purport to reflect firsthand knowledge? And I'm looking at page 76,
22 lines 16 through 18 of the temporary transcript.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. It is in the transcript maybe not clear, but I
24 think in -- my B/C/S question was a bit more clear, but I can repeat it
25 or I can say that I tried to attest the whole statement and my question
Page 31376
1 was directed toward the whole statement not only toward the paragraph 30.
2 MR. TRALDI: I appreciate the clarification and that answers the
3 question I asked.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see another ambiguity. When you asked if the
5 witness would answer in the same way if the same questions are put to
6 him, he said: "Yes, for the most part." And what about the other part?
7 Perhaps you can clarify that, too.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Javoric, what did you mean when you said in your previous
10 answer "for the most part"?
11 A. When I said "for the most part," I meant that now I would provide
12 much broader and more detailed and more complete explanations and answers
13 than I did before, because I answered questions from my own standpoint as
14 a professional and I used a lot of terms and maybe jargon that may not be
15 understandable to all. I will, through my answers, provide more
16 detailed, more specific information.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Javoric. I believe we've clarified everything
18 now. I'll now read a short summary of your statement and then I'll put a
19 few questions to you.
20 MR. LUKIC: Rade Javoric will speak about the situation in
21 Prijedor before, during, and after the multi-party elections. He will
22 explain ethnic composition of the Territorial Defence Staff of Prijedor
23 and its units. He was appointed commander of the Prijedor Territorial
24 Defence Staff on 16th of September, 1991, and he held this position when
25 the war in B and H started.
Page 31377
1 Mr. Javoric will testify about military units present in Prijedor
2 area.
3 Mr. Javoric will testify about the system of command and control
4 over TO units.
5 Mr. Javoric will also testify about the mobilisation processes
6 and about the failure of Muslims and Croats to respond to the call to the
7 war units. He will testify that everyone who responded to the
8 mobilisation call received equipment, weapons, and ammunition.
9 He will present information about the preparation of the Muslims
10 for the war in the territory of the municipality; about his encounter
11 with an armed and uniformed member -- members of the Muslim Territorial
12 Defence at Kozarac village in May 1992; about the blocking of the
13 regional road Banja Luka-Prijedor at Kozarac; about the start of war in
14 Prijedor with the murder of two soldiers by Muslim forces at the
15 Hambarine village check-point; and about other events that took place
16 that same period.
17 And that was the statement summary, Your Honours. And with your
18 leave, I would put several questions to Mr. Javoric.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us how much time you would need for
20 that? Because we had the last break we had rather late, and in order to
21 avoid that we have only a last session of five or ten minutes, I'm
22 wondering. But could you tell us how much time you would need?
23 MR. LUKIC: I will need the rest of the day and probably some
24 time tomorrow, Your Honours. I asked for one hour and 15 minutes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we take the break now so
Page 31378
1 that you have an uninterrupted last half an hour for your ...
2 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We'd like to
3 see you back in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: And I'd just like to briefly comment the matter
6 which was raised by the parties, that the witness attesting to what is
7 his own knowledge to be true. Of course, that's part of hearsay.
8 If there's hearsay evidence in the statement, then of course the
9 witness can attest to what he heard, not necessarily to the truth of what
10 he heard. So in that respect, I think Mr. Lukic rightly phrased it as he
11 did.
12 At the same time, Mr. Lukic, if, for example, we look at
13 paragraph 26, sometimes it's totally unclear whether it's hearsay or not.
14 It's a very short paragraph. It reads:
15 "I claim that the military did not secure investigation and
16 collection centres in and around Prijedor."
17 Now, it's totally unclear whether this is hearsay or whether this
18 is personal knowledge because no basis for it has been established.
19 So therefore to some extent you are right, in view of the
20 hearsay, to ask for what the witness observed himself. At the same time,
21 you create a problem by using this kind of language in the statement.
22 We take a break and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber noticed that in relation to the
Page 31379
1 testimony of the previous witness that there were two items where there
2 was some discussion about what the witness exactly had said. It was put
3 to him how it was recorded. The Chamber would very much like to verify
4 whether the expression "not a proper road" was really used by the
5 witness, and the same for the macadam road, so that we know for sure what
6 the witness has said. And of course, we invited him several times to
7 explain and to verify and to tell us if he did not agree. So therefore,
8 those two specific expressions recorded as having been used by the
9 witness, the Chamber would like to have it verified.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I will give later the lines.
12 Please be seated.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Javoric, you'll now be further examined by
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 I would need assistance from the usher to give the statement of
18 Mr. Javoric to him. Can you give the Prosecution to check it. Since
19 I'll go through several paragraphs from that statement, I would like
20 Mr. Javoric to check the statement while we are talking about the
21 paragraphs.
22 And on our screens, we need paragraph 6. It's page 3.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric, we need paragraph 6. Would you
24 like to find it? Have you opened it?
25 A. Yes.
Page 31380
1 Q. For the record and for the clarity of the statement, you
2 mentioned a few names here, and I'm just going ask you something about
3 these persons that you said were members of the Territorial Defence
4 Staff. You mentioned Aziz Selimbegovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was Mr. Selimbegovic's ethnic background?
7 A. His rank was of that a major and his ethnicity was Muslim and it
8 was a very important post on my staff where I was commander. Should I
9 explain what it was that he did?
10 Q. Please listen to my question and then just answer questions.
11 We'll go through all of this. You said that it was an important post,
12 the one that he held. What was he in charge of in your Territorial
13 Defence staff?
14 A. I have to say that the TO Staff functioned according to JNA
15 rules, and the commander has his assistant commanders and the Chief of
16 Staff has his own assistant chiefs. Selimbegovic was assistant chief of
17 the TO for logistics, an exceptionally important position because as
18 assistant for logistics he had within his domain people who were in
19 charge of weaponry, ammunition, medicine, equipment; so the chief of the
20 medical corps, the chief of the veterinary service, the chief of the
21 technical service, and not to enumerate all of them. So this is a person
22 that was in the focus of all of these activities. He had his
23 subordinates, he commanded them, and he informed the commander about
24 everything they did.
25 Q. Thank you. The next name mentioned is a Iso Bucan. Mr. Bucan,
Page 31381
1 what was his ethnicity?
2 A. Iso Bucan was a Muslim. He had a university degree, a very
3 important post on the staff. He was chief of security, and he received
4 instructions from the District Staff; that is to say, instructions,
5 rules, and we who were lower-ranking did not have that kind of
6 opportunity to communicate with superiors as he did. He finished
7 different schools and he held a responsible position.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Javoric, soon you will be cautioned by the Court
9 to answer the questions that are put to you. I asked what you his
10 ethnicity was and the answer was Muslim. And then we would elaborate
11 further. Vahid Ceric, what was his ethnicity?
12 A. Muslim.
13 Q. What was his task?
14 A. Vahid Ceric was assistant Chief of Staff for organisational and
15 personnel affairs. This is a position of exceptional importance; that is
16 to say, Vahid Ceric assigned officers to different posts and he would
17 receive the names from the municipal department. He had an assistant of
18 his own, his name was Milenko Kostic. So all the personnel that were
19 deployed in the TO, and later I guess that we will be talking about the
20 units there, he was responsible for that, and he made proposals to the
21 commander and then the commander would make proposals to the council and
22 then the council would take all of that into account and make their
23 decisions.
24 Q. When you say council, what council?
25 A. The Council for National Defence in the municipality was in
Page 31382
1 charge of personnel affairs as far as units in the field are concerned.
2 As far as operational units are concerned, including the 5th Brigade,
3 that was done by the council of the republic staff.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic announced well that soon the Court would
5 tell you to focus your answer on the questions. That is, what council?
6 The Council for National Defence in the municipality. That's the answer
7 to the question. What their duty was, what they did, et cetera, if
8 Mr. Lukic is interested in knowing that, he'll ask you. So please focus
9 your answer on what is asked.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. You said that Mr. Vahid Ceric assigned officers to different
12 units. Who assigned soldiers to different units and the Territorial
13 Defence?
14 A. Also Mr. Vahid.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to us from your point of
16 view as a professional on the Territorial Defence Staff what is the legal
17 requirement for manning units and for providing technical equipment to
18 them?
19 A. According to establishment, units have to be 100 per cent manned
20 and equipped and there should be a certain reserve.
21 Q. Thank you. The next person mentioned in this paragraph is
22 Kemal Terzic. Mr. Terzic, what was his ethnicity?
23 A. Muslim.
24 Q. It was stated that he was an operations officer together with
25 Mr. Vlado Mool. Let me ask you first what the ethnicity of Vlado Mool
Page 31383
1 is?
2 A. Vlado Mool is an ethnic Croat.
3 Q. What does that mean, that they were operations personnel?
4 Briefly.
5 A. They were in charge of carrying out professional military
6 training; that is to say, for infantry and certain specialist courses.
7 And they were trained to do that. The third operations person was
8 Rajko Macura. So there were three of them.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Goran Bikic is also mentioned. What was his
10 ethnicity?
11 A. Muslim.
12 Q. You mentioned in your statement that an order had arrived for you
13 to be moved to the barracks and people had to sign up in terms of whether
14 they wanted to or not, and you said that Mr. Vahid Ceric did not sign
15 that and was not transferred there. Bucan, Iso, did not sign it but he
16 did transfer to the barracks?
17 A. Yes, precisely.
18 Q. Mr. Iso Bucan, did he have any problems because he did not sign
19 and he had transferred nevertheless?
20 A. Yes, he did not have any problems. He said that he didn't want
21 to sign anything because he had already taken an oath in the JNA, so he
22 transferred there and continued working on intelligence and security
23 affairs.
24 Q. Thank you. Now we've come to the topic that was raised at the
25 very beginning of your testimony. Please take a look at paragraph 8 of
Page 31384
1 your statement. It has to do with mobilisation. And in that paragraph,
2 you tell us that the TO Staff issued an order to the TO Staff to the
3 Prijedor National Defence Secretariat to mobilise people and MTS by
4 formation.
5 First explain this to us, the difference between operative and
6 territorial units within the Territorial Defence so that we could
7 distinguish between these different structures.
8 A. On the Territorial Defence staff there was the
9 5th Kozara Brigade. It was an operative unit. It was not linked to a
10 particular territory. Our task was to equip it, mobilise it, and hand it
11 over to the Republican Staff. Do you want me to continue?
12 In addition to the 5th Brigade in the Territorial Defence Staff,
13 there was also the sabotage reconnaissance unit that was a platoon
14 consisting of individuals who had particular specialities. In addition
15 to that, there was the Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Detachment. It was at
16 battalion level. Then the logistics company in the staff.
17 And many units in the territory, I shall explain, in local
18 communes, and in companies. Forty-eight units in local communes and
19 companies. These units, in terms of their purpose and task, could not
20 leave the territory. Rather, they were supposed to secure different
21 facilities within the municipality. For example, factories. For
22 example, we have a biscuit factory there in Prijedor and it works on gas,
23 and their task was to provide gas. And then also the waterworks, that
24 provided water to the entire town. And so on and so forth.
25 Q. Thank you. Who decides that mobilisation should be carried out
Page 31385
1 and the people should be mobilised into the 5th Kozara Brigade?
2 A. We receive an order from the District Staff and the
3 District Staff receives an order from the republic staff.
4 Q. Who makes a decision to mobilise people into local units in local
5 communes and companies?
6 A. The Council for National Defence of the municipality of Prijedor.
7 Q. So in practice, when the National Defence Council of the
8 municipality of Prijedor reaches such a decision, who do they address?
9 A. The council sends this conclusion of theirs to the staff. As far
10 as territorial units are concerned, they are commanded by the
11 Territorial Defence Staff, and then we send it to the Secretary for
12 National Defence. Perhaps this is not a very nice term that I'm going to
13 use now, but they acted as a kind of service station for us.
14 Q. What is it that they do for you by way of providing services?
15 A. So we have reached the question of mobilisation and call-up. In
16 the staff there is establishment, and according to establishment a unit
17 has to be manned and equipped. In the secretariat, there is a courier
18 service that in peacetime it received training several times, and for
19 each and every unit they have their own couriers and for all directions.
20 When we send an order and we say that a unit, 1516/3 should be mobilised,
21 that is a code, and over there at the National Defence they know which
22 unit this is. Then they activate the courier service and they send
23 call-up papers for the entire unit. According to priority, first of all,
24 it is the officers in the unit that receive call-up papers and they are
25 the first to report at the mobilisation site.
Page 31386
1 Afterwards, there is direct security for this unit, and at the
2 same time materiel and technical equipment is taken from the barracks.
3 So all weapons for that unit, side-arms, equipment, armour, food,
4 medicine, all of that is sent to the mobilisation site. Once the
5 couriers return, they provide papers to the staff, and then Vahid Ceric
6 from the staff goes to the mobilisation site and reports to the commander
7 saying how many people responded to call-up. Those who do show up are
8 issued with weapons on basis of their files. Some get an automatic
9 rifle, others get a mortar, others get a submachine-gun, and so on. So
10 those who respond to call-up get weapons, equipment, and everything else
11 that is needed.
12 Q. We are talking about mobilisation from 1992, as far as I
13 understand you; is that right? September 1991, sorry. 1991.
14 A. It's 1991.
15 Q. I do apologise. Did you receive visits after mobilisation had
16 been carried out? Visits from superior commands, that is.
17 A. Yes, certainly. We were visited by General Jakic, Fikret Jakic,
18 the head of the Republic Staff for Territorial Defence. He first visited
19 me, he asked me what the situation was like, and then we went to see the
20 president of the municipality, and there we reported to him about what
21 the situation was like in terms of mobilisation, call-up, response.
22 There were pressures there by national units that interfered in the work
23 of the command, the work of the staff, but we who were there did not
24 allow them to play a part there.
25 Q. Mr. Javoric, you said - and it was interpreted that way - that
Page 31387
1 there were pressures by national or ethnic units. Did you mean national
2 parties?
3 A. National parties. And later, it turned out, unfortunately, that
4 they -- these parties had formed some of their own paramilitary units.
5 Q. I was just asking you about the units part.
6 A. No, I meant the leaders of these national parties.
7 Q. Fikret Jakic, general. What was his ethnicity?
8 A. Muslim. Chief of the republic staff of Territorial Defence.
9 Q. At that time, what was his stance on the mobilisation? Was it
10 necessary to carry it out, not necessary, or necessary to partially carry
11 it out? What was his stand?
12 A. It was the correct stance. According to the rules of the
13 republic staff, he said it had to be done and that was done.
14 Q. The two of you went to brief the president of the municipality.
15 What was his ethnicity and what was his name, the president of the
16 municipality of Prijedor?
17 A. He was a Muslim. He taught the Serbo-Croat language.
18 Q. You can't remember the name?
19 A. It alludes me for the moment but I'll remember. We sat down over
20 coffee so many times.
21 Q. All right. Except in the office of the president of the
22 municipality, was the mobilisation discussed in political organisations,
23 bodies of Prijedor? Did you inform political parties about the
24 mobilisation?
25 A. Yes, I did. The greatest pressure was exerted by the SDA and the
Page 31388
1 SDS, whereas Croats and their national leaders were the most moderate.
2 Q. You told us -- in fact, what did you say in these briefings to
3 the SDS, for instance?
4 A. We told them the truth. Namely, on the 24th of September, 1991,
5 I went to Omarska to emphasise -- and its 100 per cent Serb population,
6 the SDS was the strongest there, and I took Vahid Ceric with me.
7 Vahid Ceric was the chief of training and mobilisation. I remember those
8 figures. We drafted 650 Serbs, 550 Muslims, and 87 Croats.
9 Later on, I experienced some unpleasantness from members of the
10 SDS. They criticised me. How come you brought Vahid as one of the
11 commanders and you came to the SDS headquarters? I always acted like
12 that wherever I was going.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were asked what you said in those
14 briefings. You go far beyond that. Apart from that, it's time to
15 adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
16 9.30 in this same courtroom. And I instruct you that you should not
17 speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about your
18 testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today or whether
19 that's testimony still to be given tomorrow. If that's clear to you, you
20 may follow the usher.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then before we adjourn, I'd like to clarify that the
24 portions of the transcript of today's provisional transcript to be
25 verified are on page 46, line 12, where the witness was recorded as
Page 31389
1 having said "not a proper road," and page 62, line 13 to 14, where the
2 witness came up with the word "macadam."
3 We'd like to know -- it's unclear whether the witness said, I
4 didn't say it or not, he was rather vague about that. But the Chamber
5 wants to be sure that if this is what he said -- if it's not what he
6 said, that we have to consider that and --
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I tried, even at that moment, to consult
8 with Mr. Stojanovic, and we couldn't recall really properly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's the reason why I would like this to be
10 verified on the basis of the audio so that there should be no doubt as to
11 whether the witness, who was questioned on these words in some detail,
12 whether he spoke those words, yes or no. That's the page and line
13 references are there now.
14 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
15 10th of February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of
18 February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.
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