Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31390

 1                           Tuesday, 10 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Are there any preliminary matters to be raised.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly and in private session --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  In private session briefly, yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:  -- Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- how much time would you need?

15             MR. TRALDI:  A minute or so between one and two.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  A one or so.  Then could the witness already be

17     escorted up to the door-step and then to enter the courtroom after that.

18             We briefly move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31391











11  Page 31391 redacted.  Private session.















Page 31392

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8                           [The takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Javoric.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you're still bound

14     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

15     testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

16     the truth.

17             Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             I would just kindly ask the usher to provide the witness with his

20     statement from yesterday.

21                           WITNESS:  RADE JAVORIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric --

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And if we could have D895 on our

Page 31393

 1     screens, please.  That's the statement of this witness.  We will need

 2     page 4 where we can find paragraph 10.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Before you focus on paragraph 10, I'd like to

 4     ask you the following:  Was it possible -- when call-up papers were being

 5     distributed or during mobilisation, was it possible to single out Muslims

 6     and Croats and not call them up?

 7        A.   No, that would not have been possible, and I need to explain so

 8     that it would be clear.

 9        Q.   Please go ahead but briefly, please.

10        A.   The files are kept at the Secretariat for National Defence, and

11     the unit files are kept in a particular unit.  Once mobilisation happens,

12     a unit is called up, 1563-1/2, a unit is called up by code, and then

13     call-up papers from the secretariat are sent to one and all.  Out of all

14     of these call-up papers, it is impossible to single out just certain

15     names and surnames.  Why?  For example, Brdar, that is a last name that

16     exists in all three communities.  Then there were a lot of mixed

17     marriages in Prijedor.  So from one street two brothers, one married a

18     Croat woman and the other one married a Muslim woman, so how could one of

19     them just get call-up papers?  And then if one person would go to the

20     mobilisation site and say, Well, where is my -- where are my call-up

21     papers?  And the courier service functioned.  So if necessary, I can

22     provide further explanations.

23        Q.   Thank you.  It will do for the time being.  Could you now take a

24     look at paragraph 10.  It has to do with Mladen Stojanovic Detachment,

25     and you say that after mobilisation and manning performed on the order of

Page 31394

 1     the regional TO Staff, it was went to the Urije airport and placed at the

 2     premises of the aircraft hangar.  Its main task was to intervene in case

 3     of an interethnic conflict in the territory of Prijedor.  Were there any

 4     Muslims in this detachment?

 5        A.   Yes.  And holding responsible posts, at that.  Should I mention

 6     some names?

 7        Q.   Please go ahead.  Tell us who held command positions?

 8        A.   Canic, Nedzad, assistant commander for logistics; a very

 9     important position.  I spoke about that yesterday when I spoke about

10     Major Aziz Selimbegovic.  So it is the same function but the rank is

11     lower.  Enver Dracic, Ernest Badnjevic, Ivica Sikic [phoen] was commander

12     of the 2nd Company, a Croat.  So as I said yesterday, we made an effort

13     and this was usually in TO units that I commanded.  We strictly took this

14     into account.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the obvious questions here are whether

16     mobilisation here is the same as the mobilisation mentioned in

17     paragraph 8.  Is that the September 1991 mobilisation?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And then second question:  The persons you

20     mentioned, did they stay in the Mladen Stojanovic Detachment for the

21     remainder of 1991, 1992?  Could you tell us whether they stayed in their

22     positions; and if so -- if not, until when they had?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While they were in the hangar at

24     Mrakovica, they were in these units.  Later in the month of May, the

25     Army of Republika Srpska was established and all these TO units, and the

Page 31395

 1     detachment too went to the battalion of the 43rd Brigade.  Most stayed

 2     on.  Some went out for work obligation.  There were professors, teachers,

 3     engineers.  I can give you the specific names of certain persons who had

 4     to work according to work obligation, and there were those who

 5     volunteered, who said that they asked for that.  And let us be frank,

 6     there are some who didn't want to be transferred to this battalion, but

 7     there are many who did want to.  There were many officers and

 8     individuals.  I can give you an example or two?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  How many --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  How many non-Serbs stayed also when it was -- had

12     become the battalion of the 43rd Brigade?  How many non-Serbs did remain

13     in leading positions?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question

15     exactly because I went to fight for the corridor and ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, fine.  It is no problem.  If you can't answer

17     the question, we can't push to you do that.  If you can't, you can't.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lawyer.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Just a moment.  What is your knowledge?  How long did the command

23     personnel stay at the TO?

24        A.   I've already said up until the establishment of the battalion.

25     Let me just say this:  Professor Susic stayed in the detachment until the

Page 31396

 1     very end.  Badnjevic, Ernest, stayed until the very end when he was

 2     transferred to the 5th Brigade.  Ernest is a businessman in Prijedor

 3     today and I can give many such examples, but I need a bit of time to

 4     focus; however, there were quite a few who did stay on.

 5        Q.   We mentioned command personnel.  What about ethnic

 6     representation?  Was ethnic representation present in the case of

 7     ordinary soldiers too?

 8        A.   I've already said that.  When I went to Omarska with Vahid Ceric

 9     to report there, that's when these TO units had been mobilised.  I

10     already said there were 600-something Serbs, 500-something Muslims, and

11     87 Croats, so we did take that into account.

12        Q.   That was September 1991.  What about April?  These same persons,

13     members of the TO, were they there in April 1992?

14        A.   As far as territorial units are concerned, we didn't change

15     anything there.  And some people from the detachment had already

16     transferred to the battalions.  I already said that battalions were being

17     prepared in the 43rd.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask for one clarification.

19             Mr. Javoric, you -- a minute ago you referred to people staying

20     in the detachment until the very end.  What do you mean by "the very

21     end"?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the establishment of the

23     units of the battalion; that is to say, until the battalions were

24     established.  That is to say, all these units, the sabotage detachment

25     that I commanded, then the Mladen Stojanovic Detachment.  According to

Page 31397

 1     their place of residence and according to personnel needs, they came to

 2     man these battalions, so these TO units were --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please help me, when did that happen?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, battalions were established

 5     at different points in time.  Some in June, some in May.  I cannot say

 6     exactly now.  I already told you that I went for the corridor

 7     breakthrough so ...

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  I just wanted to know the time.  And now

 9     you said some in June, some in May.  Which year?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking at audible volume.  No speaking.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   These territorial units, and you said that their composition was

15     mixed.  Were they armed?

16        A.   Yes they were.  May I explain?  When mobilisation took place of

17     the territorial units, I already said that they had to do with a

18     particular territory.  They are mobilised in the same way as the

19     manoeuvre units of the TO and the JNA; that is to say, they come to the

20     mobilisation sites, they report there, and then they are given their

21     weapons, that is to say, those that match their VES, and also because

22     that was the conclusion of the council.  On this occasion they were given

23     ammunition as well.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What is a VS; could you tell us?

Page 31398

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VES is military occupational

 2     specialty; that is to say, every soldier is either an infantryman or a

 3     signalsman or an artilleryman or so on and so forth.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Now I'm going ask you something that you may or

 6     may not know.  Do you know who Ibro Alibegovic is?  Was he in some unit

 7     in Prijedor.  He's a colonel.

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Now paragraph 11, please.  Let us take a look at this.

10             You say:

11             "Other units were mobilised based on our assessment."

12             Could you just tell us briefly what you meant by "other units"?

13        A.   In Prijedor that year, there was mobilisation on several

14     occasions.  Some of these mobilisations were based on the decisions of

15     the Council for National Defence; others on orders from the republic

16     staff.  These other units -- I mean, how do I explain this?

17             First of all, the territorial structure units were mobilised, and

18     they were the most important for the municipality.  In this way, the unit

19     that guarded the biscuit factory that worked for Kras Zagreb - that's a

20     very important facility - and that is the unit that was the first to be

21     mobilised.  Then the unit for Tukovi was mobilised where the wells are

22     that provide water for the town of Prijedor.  Then there was another unit

23     that was mobilised --

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't finished.

Page 31399

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I interrupt you.  First, could you speak more

 2     slowly because otherwise your words will be lost.  And second --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I do apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Second, would you not spontaneously give all kind of

 5     explanations once you've answered the question.

 6             The question -- one of the previous questions, for example, was

 7     were they armed.  Your answer was yes.  Now, that is for the time being

 8     enough.  If Mr. Lukic wants further explanations, he'll ask for it.  So

 9     would you refrain from expounding on brief answers you've given to clear

10     questions.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let me ask you something about paragraph 19 of your statement

16     now.  You said that despite the warning, when you were returning through

17     Kozarac, you did go to Kozarac.  Why did you go despite the warning?

18        A.   Two reasons.  One:  Because I had excellent co-operation with all

19     the territorial units, and I thought that this warning did not involve

20     any danger for me.  They said that on the road there were Green Berets

21     that were armed.

22             Secondly, I wanted to see something for the very first time in my

23     life.  There was talk to the effect that the Green Berets were being

24     armed, that the Serbs were being armed, and I had never seen any such

25     thing in all my life.

Page 31400

 1        Q.   Where was it that you were actually coming back from?

 2        A.   At Benkovac, which is part of Mrakovica, part of Kozara.  That's

 3     where the Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Detachment had been transferred.  I was

 4     going back to Prijedor and that was the shortest route to take, and I

 5     heard through communications equipment that the road had been blocked.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Both the question and the answer are already in

 7     paragraph 19.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   What was the composition of the Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Detachment

11     that was deployed in Mrakovica at that moment?

12        A.   The same as it was at the airport or, rather, in the airport

13     settlement.

14        Q.   Mixed?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in Kozarac, was there a Territorial Defence unit deployed

17     there?

18        A.   Yes, it was mobilised at the same time as the other unit.

19        Q.   Did it have its command?

20        A.   Yes, it did.

21        Q.   Who was the commander of the territorial unit in Kozarac, a

22     Muslim or a Serb?

23        A.   A Muslim.

24        Q.   And now let's go to paragraph 22.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the following page in the

Page 31401

 1     statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the whole of what you -- what the witness

 3     told us about coming back and wanting to see with his own eyes the

 4     Green Berets, when exactly was that?  Time-frame.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the first half of May.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  1992, I take it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Paragraph 22, you mention Niko Drincic.  You say that he was with

11     you in the barracks in the operative room when you heard that the

12     soldiers in Hambarine had been attacked.  You describe here the incident.

13     Can you tell us what ethnicity was Niko Drincic?

14        A.   He was a Croat, captain first class.

15        Q.   How long did he stay in the VRS or rather the JNA or rather the

16     Territorial Defence?

17        A.   For a long time.  He had a degree.  He was an engineer.  The mine

18     was still opened.  That's why he was sent there to be engaged in work --

19     employment, and then he became the general manager of a department there.

20     I don't know exactly when he left, but we were together in the barracks

21     when the attack on Hambarine had started.

22        Q.   You went to the corridor; right?  Do you know whether in the

23     units of the VRS there were Croats and Muslims who were also engaged on

24     breaking through the corridor?

25        A.   Of course.  Shall I continue?

Page 31402

 1        Q.   Just a moment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, always, please, a time-frame exactly so

 3     that we have the chronology clear.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   When?  When did that happen?  What month?

 6        A.   The corridor was --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please slow down.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you -- you're again asked to slow

 9     down because we'll lose part of your testimony if you continue to speak

10     at this speech -- at this speed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The only thing that was recorded was -- or, rather, nothing was

13     recorded -- recorded.  When did the operation corridor start, in what

14     month?

15        A.   The operation corridor started in May.  It had started even

16     before that, but the Slijepcevic Battalion from Prijedor was first

17     engaged on the 28th of May.  I apologise.  It was in June.  I misspoke.

18     It was not in May.  It was on the 28th of June when they entered Modrica.

19     The passage was liberated.  And after that, the corridor was passable.  I

20     apologise about the error of one month.

21        Q.   What was the relationship between the fighters of different

22     nationalities in Prijedor and on -- in the theatre of war?

23        A.   Good, harmonious.  They were all colleagues there.  They were

24     brothers.  Shall I expand?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Lukic, you could ask the witness:  When

Page 31403

 1     you said that Croats and Muslims were also engaged in breaking through

 2     the corridor, and that you said was in June, what was approximately the

 3     number?  Was it 20 per cent non-Serbs, 40 per cent non-Serbs, 1 per cent

 4     non-Serbs?  What was approximately the -- the quantitative involvement of

 5     Croats and Muslims in that operation?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you a precise answer.

 7     It was a long time ago, but I know that in the 2nd Battalion there were

 8     Croats.  I know who their company commander was.  I was more attached to

 9     them when we started the Operation Corridor.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know whether there were any non-Serbs,

11     Muslims and Croats, in other battalions than the one you mentioned?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were.  Ernest Badnjevic

13     was a member of the 2nd Battalion of the 5th Brigade and remained a

14     member until the end of the war.  There were others as well, but at the

15     moment, I can't -- or, rather, yes, I've just remembered.  Somebody's

16     whose nickname was Schmidt.  He was also a professor or an electrical

17     engineer.  He stayed until the very end.  And after that, he found

18     employment at a school as a teacher.  His name was Emir Susic and his

19     nickname was Schmidt.  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm interested in numbers rather than in specific

21     persons.  In the 2nd Battalion you said there were Croats.  Were there

22     any Muslims in the 2nd Battalion to your knowledge?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not received the

24     interpretation.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Nobody received translation at this moment.

Page 31404

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'll repeat my questions -- question.

 2             Were there any Muslims in the 2nd Battalion where you told us

 3     that was -- there were Croats?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were Muslims in the

 5     2nd Battalion as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximately how many?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but I

 8     believe that two, if not even five, were killed during the operations.  I

 9     can't give you the exact data.  As I've told you, I was more attached

10     to --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not asking how many were killed.  I asked

12     you how many there were.  You can't tell us --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't give you a precise

14     answer.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You can't tell us also percentage-wise on

16     whether it was a very, very small minority or whether it was a

17     substantial number?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The battalions were set up in a

19     territorial sense.  In Ljubija, there were more Muslims than Croats.  And

20     the company -- therefore, in percentage terms, they were not represented

21     to that extent, but there were some, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Among the fighters of different ethnicities, were there any

25     differences in the food they were given, where they slept, the salaries

Page 31405

 1     they received?

 2        A.   No, it was the same across the board.  There were no differences

 3     in that respect.

 4        Q.   And the families received humanitarian aid in Prijedor and its

 5     environs.  Were there any differences there according to ethnicity?

 6        A.   No, none whatsoever.  The fighters were together on the front

 7     line, and the families were together in the rear.  It was all the same.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at a document and the

 9     number is 1D5333.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs that under that number there

12     is no document, Mr. Lukic.  Could you please verify the accuracy of the

13     number you gave.  It's recorded as 1D5333.

14             MR. LUKIC:  That's the number I have.  Give me one second.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you sure that you have released the document?

16             MR. LUKIC:  We are trying to check if it's in the system.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, meanwhile, you move ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have -- can we find it on the basis of the

20     doc ID which is known to the Chamber as being 1D19-1173.  That document

21     apparently is known.  Let's have a look at it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's the document I need.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Before us we have a list that I already showed

24     you.  And at the end, we can see that the list was signed by Miso Rodic.

25     Do you know what was Miso Rodic's position at the time?

Page 31406

 1        A.   Yes, Miso Rodic was the -- or, rather, he is now the chief of

 2     department in Prijedor for protection of veterans and fighters.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, in the English translation I see

 4     Miso Radic.  Could we look at the relevant page in B/C/S?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is.  "Rodic" should be

 6     corrected, obviously.  Mr. Rodic should testify in this case as well.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we see the respective page in B/C/S?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't know how many pages --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the last page.  It's on the last page, his

11     signature and name.  It's handwritten so that's why maybe there was

12     confusion.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC:  You're welcome.

15        Q.   Do you co-operate with Mr. Rodic's office in your everyday work?

16        A.   Yes, as well as with all the others because of the nature of my

17     work.

18        Q.   Just briefly, tell us how you co-operate.

19        A.   As a director of the welfare centre, we co-operate with Miso to

20     help the families of those who had been killed during the war

21     irrespective of their ethnicity.  Of the hard-up families, we give them

22     food, medicines, clothes.  We try to help them to exercise their rights.

23     I have three lawyers at the centre, and they represent them pro bono when

24     needed.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, another question.  This list bears a

Page 31407

 1     date, 15th December, 2014.  Was that prepared for this trial?  Was

 2     that -- what -- what is the relevance if we don't know the date when the

 3     original documents were prepared?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  This document is prepared on the 15th of

 5     December, 2014.  It's prepared by Mr. Rodic for this trial.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what is the basis for it?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We asked him to give us the list of people on his --

 8     in his register of non-Serb ethnicity who were fighters and members of

 9     VRS during the war.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What does it mean "during the war"?  There are

11     several years, but we don't have -- I don't see any reference.  Perhaps

12     in the last line, date of status, 3rd of November, 1999, that should be

13     explained.  I have no idea what the resource of all of that is.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Couldn't he provide the register itself rather

15     than make an excerpt from the register?

16             MR. LUKIC:  We can do that but we tried to shorten our evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, yes.  But could I then ask you, if it says:

18     Date of status, as we see on our screen now, the 3rd of November, 1999,

19     and these apparently are conscripts, now could you tell us whether that

20     means that mister, and the name is there, with a certain number who was

21     born in 1973 was on the 3rd of November 1999 a conscript?  Is that how we

22     have to understand it?  Because I have difficulties in understanding

23     exactly what the "date of status" means, because we have many there,

24     sometimes 2000, 2004, 1997.  Could you explain to us what that means, the

25     date of status?

Page 31408

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I can see here that when it says "status" it says,

 2     for example, "military obligation ceased due do old age in 2004," but we

 3     will have probably the best --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but where this --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- from Mr. Rodic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that part also -- there apparently is an index

 7     attached to it, and we have not looked at that index.

 8             Does the index give the explanation or -- I mean, unless the

 9     witness would know anything about it.

10             Do you know anything about this document, Witness?  Do you know

11     anything about the content of this document.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can give you my comment.

13             The list that we see -- could it please be zoomed in -- no, don't

14     bother, it's okay.

15             These are members of non-Serb ethnicity who were members of

16     various battalions and who stayed their members until the end of the war

17     or were killed or had other obligations and left the unit before that.

18     There's a name and the year of birth and for how long he was kept on the

19     files of that unit or the national defence.  On the right-hand side, it

20     says "ceased" and why he left, age, died, so on and so forth.

21             Those records still exist, and those who are of non-Serb

22     ethnicity are still in Prijedor.  They live there.  I recognise a lot of

23     those people on the list who were members of our units.  I'm very

24     grateful to have the list before me to jog my memory of those days.  For

25     each and every one of them, I can tell you where they were, what they

Page 31409

 1     did, and so on and so forth.  And especially Miso Rodic can do that

 2     because he was working on that.  He was also an intelligence organ.  That

 3     was his speciality.  He had worked at the Secretariat for National

 4     Defence for a long time, and then he was assigned to a new duty as the

 5     chief of Department for Veterans.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently you recognise some names.

 7             Mr. Lukic, first of all, you say list of conscripts.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Conscripts of what?  Is that conscript of the VRS,

10     is it conscripts of -- what is it, is it TO?  What are we talking about?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?  Are you putting

12     this question to me?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list I see before me, when it

15     says "military conscript" it means military conscript who was deployed to

16     a particular unit, battalions, et cetera.  Perhaps he was in a

17     territorial unit, but --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it is the battalions that were

20     there up until the end.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But is this VRS?  Is this TO list?  What are we

22     looking at at this moment; if you know?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list -- I mean, I only have

24     the first page here.  But here on the first page I see Croats, mostly

25     Croats, who stayed in units --

Page 31410

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm not asking you -- simply the first page

 2     of this document reads:  List of conscripts.  Added to this is Croats.

 3     There is the number 381.  List of conscripts of what exactly?  That's the

 4     only question I'm putting to you.  Is this conscripts of the VRS?  Is

 5     this conscripts of the TO?  What is it?  If you know.  If you don't know,

 6     tell us.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I see here before me were

 8     people who were in battalions; that is to say, of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska.  There were units of the TO, and the Army of

10     Republika Srpska was established, and what I see here is the persons who

11     remained.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, I see that if you have a list of names,

13     that these are persons named.  This doesn't come as a surprise to me.

14     You said VRS TO.  Which of the two?  Is this a TO list or is this a VRS

15     list?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list that I see before me was

17     taken from the files of the Secretariat of National Defence.  How

18     individuals were deployed to battalions; that is to say, once the VRS had

19     already been established.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this mean that 381 Croats were conscripts in

21     the VRS?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And served as such?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is this only about persons in Prijedor or is it

Page 31411

 1     persons from elsewhere?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I see here, I mean, I can give

 3     you a few names, quite a few, from Prijedor.  I cannot remember all of

 4     them now, but I know so many people in person; name, surname, occupation

 5     and so on.  People who were with us up until the end of the war.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You've told us that several times.  I'm trying

 7     to find out what this list is, not whether you recognise certain persons

 8     on it.

 9             Would it mean that if, for example, someone is here reported --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as having been born in 1937 - and we find such

12     numbers, for example, on the first page in the original - that therefore

13     at the beginning of the war, being at an age of 40, 45 years that they

14     were conscripts in the VRS?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many, when they report to join a

16     unit, the command would not refuse, although some of them were already

17     beyond the required age.  For example, we have this man from Ljubija, a

18     Muslim, Hodzic, I've forgotten his first name.  He was very old but he

19     came and joined us, although he was very old, and stayed on with us.  And

20     it says here when --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, you emphasise that you recognise

22     certain names, but you're apparently not able to answer my question,

23     whether these were conscripts at the time, what exactly this list is, to

24     what date it refers, whether they were on active duty, yes or no.  Do you

25     know whether these persons listed here were on active duty during the

Page 31412

 1     war, all of them?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very form of this document,

 3     perhaps it should have been worked out in a different way.  But I can

 4     tell you --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me -- if you say that the list should

 6     have worked out in a different way, that's not the kind of answers I'm

 7     seeking at this moment.

 8             Mr. Lukic, please put focused questions to the witness on this

 9     list and make the questions such that the Chamber understands what it

10     exactly is.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Sir, could you please tell us now:  As for this first page, who

14     are the persons that you know were with you in the Army of

15     Republika Srpska?

16        A.   Anusic, Zoran, mother Viktorija.  He was in Slavonia from day one

17     and stayed on until the very end.  He was a driver and mechanic.  He is

18     also a sportsman playing handball.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we're not asking what sports they did.  You

20     were referring to who exactly?  Which one?  Is that the fifth on the

21     list, Anusic Zoran, mother Viktorija.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You said --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

25     witness.

Page 31413

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness, Witness, stay a bit away

 2     from the screen and come a bit closer to the microphone.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Then we have to enlarge this, Your Honour.  Oh, it's

 4     not possible.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You can ask the Registrar to.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had already asked for this

 7     to be zoomed in a bit, but it's all right.  Well, yes, I did ask.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We don't need English, probably.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You said there was no need to do that immediately

10     after that.

11             Let's -- he said this person was with you in Slovenia.  When?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Slavonia.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Slavonia.  When?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in Slavonia, but Zoran

15     was there in the battalion.  I know that full well.  That is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  When?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In September.  He left with the

18     43rd Brigade in 1991.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was in 1991.  So it cannot be VRS because

20     the VRS did not exist in 1991, isn't it?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know why you're pressing the witness.  He

22     said he stayed with us until the end of the war.  He stated clearly.  We

23     have it in the transcript -- [Overlapping speakers].

24             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers].

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm trying --

Page 31414

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I know you don't like this document, but that's how

 2     it is.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no problems with the document.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously you do.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, first of all, calm down.  Is that clear

 6     to you?

 7             I can only --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  This is truth --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

10             MR. LUKIC:  -- and we will introduce it.  You should try to --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, don't interrupt me again.  Wait for a

12     second.

13             I'm trying desperately to find out what this document is, that's

14     one.  And second, I'm desperately trying to find out what the witness can

15     tell us about the document.  Because whether I like a document or not is

16     not relevant.  What is important for this Chamber that it is able to

17     understand the evidence that it -- that is presented before it.  That's

18     what I'm doing.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  And I invited you to put

19     focused questions, including such that we know what this document is

20     about.

21             The witness told us that this could be VRS and TO, and the

22     witness now tells us that he remembers that one of the persons on this

23     list was in Slavonia in 1991, and then I had difficulties to reconcile

24     that with what the witness told us, that this could be VRS because

25     according to my knowledge, but please correct me if I'm wrong, the VRS

Page 31415

 1     was not yet established in September 1991.

 2             I leave it to that at this moment.

 3             I think it's also --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  No, you may not.

 6             Mr. Mladic is also supposed not to speak aloud.

 7             Mr. Lukic, you may now be aware, the Chamber has in understanding

 8     the source of this document, what it exactly tells us.  You can

 9     understand that from the questions that were put to the witness both by

10     me and by my colleagues.  I invite you to put focused questions to the

11     witness to the extent he has knowledge of the matters contained in this

12     list so that the Chamber is able to understand what it is.  And whether

13     we like it or not is another matter, it's got nothing do with it.  We

14     have to analyse what it is.

15             We'll take the break first and we expect you to put such

16     questions to the witness after the break.

17             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'll take a break of 20

18     minutes.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to enter the

24     courtroom.

25             Meanwhile, I can use the time briefly and I'll briefly deal with

Page 31416

 1     a document which was tendered through Witness Milorad Sajic.

 2             On 2nd of December, during the testimony of Milorad Sajic, the

 3     Prosecution tendered a military diary which the Chamber marked for

 4     identification as P6970 and it was placed under seal.  The Prosecution

 5     indicated that it would upload into e-court a reduced version of the

 6     diary.  On the 16th of January of this year, the Prosecution informed the

 7     Chamber via an e-mail that it had uploaded an excerpt of the diary under

 8     Rule 65 ter number 8656b, and the Registry is hereby instructed to

 9     replace P6970 with the newly uploaded version and admits the document

10     into evidence under seal.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, I'm very sorry to interrupt, but if I

12     might just request that the Registry hold off.  It -- the document -- the

13     full version was on my exhibit list for this witness and I'll have to

14     change some page numbers and it might create some technical difficulties.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Madam Registrar is invited not to enforce the

16     decision yet but to postpone that until further order.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Mr. Javoric, just briefly, please, tell us about the first page

21     of this document.  Who is it that you know from this page?  And tell us

22     whether you know whether this person was a member of the VRS and whether

23     you know up until when this person remained in the VRS?  Just from the

24     first page.

25        A.   Atlija Miroslav was in VRS --

Page 31417

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the rest of

 2     the sentence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat what he said after giving a

 4     name and told that the person was in the VRS.  What did you then add,

 5     Witness?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot exactly up until when.  I

 7     was not a personnel officer in the battalion who kept these files.

 8     Rather, I was a senior officer and I --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.  If you don't know something, you

10     don't know.  That's good enough for us.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lawyer, may I?  You asked me

12     whether I knew someone who's from the army and I said yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, when I --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- intervened, it's not for you to say who should

16     proceed, yes or no, and at what point in time.

17             You told us that -- let me read it again.  That Atlija Miroslav

18     was in the VRS and you don't know until when.

19             Any other person on this first page you recognise?

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Let me just ask you a bit about Miroslav Atlija.  Where does he

23     live today?

24        A.   In Prijedor he's involved in sports, kickboxing.  Bakau [phoen],

25     Zlatko.

Page 31418

 1        Q.   Was he in the VRS?

 2        A.   Yes, a watchmaker at the railway station.

 3        Q.   When, nowadays or before the war?

 4        A.   He works there to this day.  I do apologise.  You asked me who I

 5     recognise.  I mean, I cannot know who stayed until the very end.  I was a

 6     senior officer, a ranking officer.  I mean, come on.  Don't ask me to

 7     answer things that I cannot.  I mean, I'm saying this for the benefit of

 8     the people who are listening.  I mean, it would not be nice for me to say

 9     that somebody was not there, and then if he did stay on until the end, I

10     wouldn't be saying the truth and these people wouldn't want to hear

11     something like that.

12             Well, yes, I like you too.  Yes?

13        Q.   Please, people from this page.  Just tell us who you know from

14     this list and where they live nowadays, if you know.

15        A.   I've already said Brener, Zoran.  He died.  He was in the army.

16     He had a masters degree.  And then his two sons, Zoran.  So Becner Bojan

17     lives in Prijedor nowadays.  He is the director of the centre for

18     pensioners.  I have a good co-operation with him.  He has a degree in

19     economics.  I have a good co-operation with him.  Do you need anything

20     else?

21             Mr. Lawyer, I tell you about all these things that I know and

22     then you insist on the date.  It's not fair.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not right.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31419

 1        Q.   Please don't be angry with me.  We see that you don't know dates,

 2     so we're not asking you about that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, tell me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know the answer to a question, simply

 6     say, "I don't know."  That's good enough.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   However, the record does not reflect what you said about

10     Zoran Anusic.  Do you know whether he was a member of the VRS and where

11     he lives today?

12        A.   Zoran Anusic was a member of the VRS.  And I added something,

13     perhaps I wasn't supposed to, that he lives in -- that he lives in

14     Prijedor, is a mechanic, has two children, and that he is a driver.  Is

15     that enough?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say he died?

17             MR. LUKIC:  He's a driver.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But at --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Who died?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, can we begin again.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do not bury --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just hold on please.  I'm talking.

23     Page 29, line 1:

24             "I've already said ... Zoran, he died.  He was in the army.  He

25     had a masters degree.  And then his two sons, Zoran.  So

Page 31420

 1     Becner Bojan ..."

 2             Were you not talking about the same Anusic, Zoran, here?

 3             I'm asking you a question, sir.  Which Zoran were you talking

 4     about on the --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not the same one.  These are

 6     two completely different people.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which one were you talking about?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anusic Zoran is a youngish man.  He

 9     was in the VRS --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I said that he is an auto

12     mechanic and so on --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I assist, ten lines down --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which Zoran died?  Which Zoran is the one who

15     died?  Can you just tell us?  That's all I'm asking.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Becner, Zoran.  He died.  He had a

17     masters degree, two sons.  All of this has to be clear.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you see anyone else that you know on this page, a person who

22     was in the VRS and where do they live today?

23        A.   Give me the second page.  I'm done with the first one.  If I were

24     to ask you questions given that kind of time distance --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please refrain from commenting on

Page 31421

 1     this kind of matters.

 2             Mr. Lukic, you changed --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It's my instinct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then keep control over your instinct.

 5             Mr. Lukic, you started asking whether the witness recognised any

 6     person on this list.  In the last phrase, the last time you asked:

 7             "It was do you see anyone else that you know on this page, a

 8     person who was in the VRS..."

 9             That's a different question from the one you started with; that

10     is, whether the witness recognises any persons.  But we're not going

11     through the whole of this list to find out whether the witness recognises

12     persons and knows what their education is, whether they live or whether

13     they died or not without understanding what the list is.  I would

14     suggest, as a matter of fact, that if the witness who drafted the list

15     appears as a witness, that we'll ask such further questions and that it

16     be MFI'd for the time being.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Then I do not have any more

18     questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Madam Registrar, the document.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D05333 receives MFI D896, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Javoric.  That was all we had for you at the

25     moment.  Thank you.

Page 31422

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Javoric, you'll now be cross-examined by

 2     Mr. Traldi.  You find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel

 3     for the Prosecution.  And may I urge you again not to go beyond what is

 4     asked and to refrain from any critical comments on persons who ask you

 5     questions.

 6             Please proceed.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I have a couple of matters that I'd just like to clarify arising

11     out of your direct examination.

12             First, in paragraph 27 of your statement, you discuss a task you

13     were given to look for people to join Slijepcevic Battalion tasked with

14     opening the corridor, and that after final preparations in Gornja

15     Lamovita, you departed on the 25th of May, 1992.  In light of the

16     correction you made this morning during direct examination, that

17     paragraph should be the 25th of June that you departed for the corridor;

18     right?

19        A.   Precisely.  I did not even notice this mistake, the mistake being

20     the 25th of May.

21        Q.   Now, I have another question just to clarify.  Another matter on

22     direct.  There were two Territorial Defence units, the

23     Mladen Stojanovic Detachment and a reconnaissance and sabotage

24     detachment, that you mentioned, and I wasn't clear from your testimony on

25     direct whether your evidence was that they were manoeuvre units or

Page 31423

 1     territorial units.  Can you tell us which it was?

 2        A.   Both were territorial units.  The

 3     Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Detachment in Prijedor and the reconnaissance

 4     detachment was collecting intelligence for the municipality and

 5     higher-ranking unit.  The first unit was ranked as a battalion, and the

 6     latter unit was ranked as a platoon.

 7        Q.   Now, yesterday Mr. Lukic asked you if you recalled the name of

 8     the Muslim who was the president of Prijedor municipality in 1991 and you

 9     weren't able to remember.  It was Professor Cehajic?

10        A.   Cehajic.  Let me correct your pronunciation.  Cehajic.

11        Q.   I appreciate that, sir.

12        A.   Muhamed was his name.

13        Q.   And Muhamed Cehajic, who had been the president of Prijedor

14     municipality in 1991, now that you've recalled that, you also recall,

15     don't you, that he was murdered in Omarska camp in 1992?

16        A.   I can't remember that.  I was never in any of the collection

17     centres or camps.  I never toured any of them.  I don't know what went on

18     there.  Therefore, I'm not aware of this information.

19        Q.   So when you say in your statement, sir, that the VRS did not

20     secure any of the camps or collection centres in Prijedor, you don't

21     actually know who was involved in securing those camps, do you?

22        A.   I can only tell you what I do know.  The immediate security was

23     provided by the TO of Slobodan Kuruzovic, whereas the wider ring was the

24     VRS.  I was not there.  I discharged other duties.  I can only tell you

25     what I heard from other people.  I can only convey those words.

Page 31424

 1        Q.   Now, what you've just described, that refers to Trnopolje camp;

 2     right?

 3        A.   I don't consider that a camp.  It was a collection centre.

 4        Q.   Let's not focus on the word for the moment.  It was Trnopolje

 5     where the immediate security was provided by men under Kuruzovic's

 6     command; right?

 7        A.   Yes, precisely.  The Serbian TO.  Because in addition to the TO

 8     that I commanded, there was another one and they had nothing to do with

 9     us.

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.  And I will get to questions about

11     your TO and Mr. Kuruzovic's TO, but let's just take it step by step.

12             Now, I want to talk about your career a little bit.  You served

13     in both the 5th Kozara Brigade and the 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS

14     at different points during the war; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, by the end of the war, the men who commanded both those

17     brigades in May 1992, Pero Colic and Vladimir Arsic, had been promoted to

18     the rank of general; right?

19        A.   Yes, at the end of the war.

20        Q.   Now, sir, turning now to the Territorial Defence before the war.

21     Now, you mention the regional TO Staff based in Banja Luka and you

22     identify Milan Krneta as its commander in paragraph 7 of your statement.

23     Now, beginning in September 1991, the command --

24        A.   Commander, yes.

25        Q.   Beginning in September 1991, the commander of the regional

Page 31425

 1     TO Staff was Colonel Petar Spasojevic; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  But then he was removed and replaced by another.  And both

 3     of them were infantrymen.

 4        Q.   Now, when were you suggesting that Colonel Spasojevic was

 5     removed?

 6        A.   I don't know exactly when.

 7        Q.   Now, in fact, he remained commander of the regional TO Staff up

 8     till the creation of the VRS, didn't he?

 9        A.   I'm not aware of that.  Just like I could not remember about

10     Cehajic yesterday.  I can't remember about him today.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's look at 65 ter 06546.

12        Q.   Now, this is an order from the Banja Luka Regional Territorial

13     Defence Staff dated the 12th of March, 1992, in this case to the Sanski

14     Most TO.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could look at the end of the document in

16     both languages.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can this be zoomed in just a

18     little, please.

19             MR. TRALDI:  For the moment, I'd ask that we zoom in on the

20     signature and the stamp.

21        Q.   So as of the 12th of March, 1992, Colonel Spasojevic remained the

22     commander of the regional TO, didn't he?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And if we could look back to the first page and zoom in on the

25     third paragraph.

Page 31426

 1             MR. TRALDI:  First page in both languages.

 2        Q.   The third paragraph --

 3        A.   I do not have the third paragraph.

 4        Q.   You do, actually, sir.  It begins with the words, "Ucilju."  And

 5     that reads:

 6             "In order to create the optimal conditions for the life, work,

 7     and complete security of the employees at TO headquarters and the

 8     complete security of TO facilities, pursuant to strictly confidential

 9     order number 238-1 of the 5th Corps issued on 9 March 1992 ..."

10             Now, I'm not going to ask you about the details of the order.

11     What I'm going to ask you is, it's correct that as of 12th of March, the

12     regional TO Staff was implementing orders from the command of the

13     5th Corps; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And it's passing this order down to one of the municipal

16     TO Staffs along the chain of command; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06546.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06546 receives Exhibit P7118,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Now, turning to the Prijedor Territorial Defence for a moment.

25     You mentioned two Territorial Defences in Prijedor in your statement and

Page 31427

 1     just now:  Your Territorial Defence, the official one; and one set up by

 2     the SDS commanded by Slobodan Kuruzovic.

 3             Now Kuruzovic, aside from being a SDS member, also fought in

 4     Western Slavonia as a battalion command in the 343rd Brigade; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And now back to the regional TO Staff for a moment.

 7             Now, Colonel Spasojevic who we just saw was the commander of the

 8     regional TO Staff.  He was your immediate superior officer during this

 9     period; right?

10        A.   Superior.

11        Q.   And his office was in the 5th Corps headquarters in Banja Luka;

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, you say in your statement that was on Marsala Tito Street.

15     That's what it was called before the war began, right, the street?

16        A.   You have mixed things together.  My staff was in Marsala Tito

17     Street in Prijedor.  Those are two different things.  The command of my

18     staff was one thing and the command of the regional staff was another

19     thing.  I'm afraid you did not pay attention.

20        Q.   I'll try and focus very carefully, sir.  I want to look, then, at

21     one of the things your staff did, the mobilisation in September 1991.

22             You were asked yesterday at transcript pages 31384 and 31385 who

23     orders mobilisation, and you testified that:

24             "We receive an order from the District Staff and the

25     District Staff receives an order from the republic staff."

Page 31428

 1             Now, in fact, what happened with the September 1991 mobilisation

 2     is that you received an order from the District TO Staff but they

 3     received their order from the 5th Corps of the JNA; right?

 4        A.   I don't know who they received their order from.  But this was

 5     common practice for the Republican Staff to issue orders to the regional

 6     staff --

 7        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

 8        A.   -- and then the regional staff issued their order to us and --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  And the end of the answer got lost.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32021, please.

11        Q.   Now, this is an article from Oslobodjenje on the 1st of October,

12     1991.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And just for ease of locating, it's the second

14     article down in the ride column in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   And what we read is:

16             "Yesterday, the BH government assessed as an unconstitutional and

17     illegal act the general mobilisation in the area of the Banja Luka Corps

18     of the JNA proclaimed by its commander, General Nikola Uzelac."

19             Now that's the truth, isn't it, that the mobilisation in

20     September 1991 was ordered by the commander of the 5th Corps,

21     General Uzelac?

22        A.   I did not read Oslobodjenje.  I told you who our orders came

23     from.

24        Q.   Is it -- are -- are you telling this Trial Chamber that the

25     average newspaper reader in Bosnia was aware of who had ordered the

Page 31429

 1     mobilisation you were conducting but you yourself were not?

 2        A.   I told you yesterday that the general who was the chief of the

 3     Republican Staff came to Prijedor, we went to Mr. Cehajic's office and

 4     talked about mobilisation, and I suppose that the republican staff sent

 5     his -- its order to the regional staff and then they sent it to us.

 6     Cehajic -- Fikret was with me when we went to Cehajic's office and

 7     ordered the mobilisation.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you were asked to answer a question, not to

 9     speculate on whether someone considers something to be wrong or right.

10     Just answer the questions.  Tell us about any facts you know.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 32021 receives exhibit number --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not received any

15     interpretation.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 32021 receives Exhibit P7119,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   You mentioned other mobilisations on direct examination.  There

22     was also a mobilisation in November 1991 in Prijedor; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that was after the 343rd and 5th Brigades had been in

25     Western Slavonia for about a month and then returned; right?

Page 31430

 1        A.   Not all of them returned.  Only some elements were sent on

 2     furlough by the command.  Some were in the theatre of war; the others

 3     were on furlough.  That's how things were done at the time.  I was in

 4     Prijedor, though.

 5        Q.   Well, during this November 1991 mobilisation, the rule was that

 6     people could, if they were willing to go to the front, be mobilised.

 7     They could also, if they were not willing to go to the front, return

 8     their weapons to the headquarters; right?

 9        A.   Yes, if they were mobilised by the staff.

10        Q.   And the people that returned their weapons were mostly Muslims

11     and Croats; right?

12        A.   Those who were mobilised by the staff and who came to us saying

13     they did not want to go back surrendered their weapons.  Most of them

14     did.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether those who did so

16     were mostly Muslims and Croats.  That was the question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were also Serbs who, for some

18     reason, did not want to stay either because they were wounded or they

19     were under their family's pressure.  There were Serbs as well, or people

20     from mixed marriages who wanted to move out, and they did eventually.  I

21     don't know if you understand me.  Please can --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- can -- can I get the

24     interpretation of the Judge's words, please?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You will not receive the interpretation of my words

Page 31431

 1     if you continue to speak yourself and instead of following my clear hand

 2     signs that I want you --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are now doing the same.

 5             The question was not whether there were also Serbs.  The question

 6     was whether they were mostly Muslims and Croats.  Could you please answer

 7     that question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  A simple yes would have done half a page ago.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd ask that we go into private

12     session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31432











11  Pages 31432-31441 redacted.  Private session.















Page 31442

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Mr. Lukic, we -- at the beginning of this session, we had some

14     discussion about the list you presented and which I think you said was

15     provided by Mr. Rodic, if I remember well.

16             Now, you -- I take it that you want to tender later that

17     document, prepare that list.  Now that list is apparently extract from

18     other sources.  Have you or will you disclose to the Prosecution the

19     sources of this list used by Mr. Rodic to make this list in 2014?

20             MR. LUKIC:  We are ready to copy the whole document.  We have no

21     problem with that.  Only I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the whole document?  Do you mean the document

23     which was MFI'd?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Or even more.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 31443

 1             MR. LUKIC:  If there is anything else, we are willing to provide,

 2     of course.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the basis for it because this apparently is

 4     a --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  What I learned from this witness is that Mr. Rodic

 6     also keeps track of different nationalities and that he has this kind of

 7     list in his archives as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the only thing --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  But I haven't checked with Mr. Rodic yet.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing is in order to avoid that when

11     Mr. Rodic appears as a witness that we have further debates about how to

12     verify the accuracy of what he prepared in 2014, that there's access to

13     both parties - and, of course, it's your witness, so I take it that

14     you'll take the first steps - so as to be available to verify the

15     accuracy of the list drafted when we hear what the list exactly is about.

16             Please keep that in mind.

17             We take a break and we resume at quarter past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you give us an indication as to

21     how much more time you would need?

22             MR. TRALDI:  I expect to finish in this session, Mr. President,

23     but not -- not in the next few minutes, anyway.  But half of this session

24     or a little bit more.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Half of the session or a little bit more.  Then you

Page 31444

 1     would stay more or less within your time assessment.  Taking the whole

 2     session, you would not.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And a few minutes -- I think your estimate was one

 5     hour.  One and a half.  Then you have 45 minutes left.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  That's right.  I'd initially thought, Mr. President,

 8     I might need a few minutes extra on the basis of direct, but it appears I

 9     might not.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to May 1992 in Prijedor.  You say in

14     paragraph 31 of your statement you were never a member of the SDS or the

15     Crisis Staff or the War Presidency.  You were, however, a member of the

16     National Defence Council; right?

17        A.   Yes, of the council.

18        Q.   And the president of the council was Dr. Stakic; right?

19        A.   Yes.  What you have just said, that was precisely so.  I was not

20     a member --

21        Q.   Sir --

22        A.   I was a member of the National Defence Council by virtue of my

23     position but not of anything else.

24        Q.   And Mr. Kuruzovic, Mr. Arsic, Mr. Zeljaja, all also members of

25     the National Defence Council; right?

Page 31445

 1        A.   The National Defence Council, or, rather, the State Defence

 2     Council, not National Defence Council, and the chief of SUP --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness.  Witness, you're speaking too

 5     fast, and if you would simply answer the question that was put to you,

 6     whether Mr. Kuruzovic, Mr. Arsic, and Mr. Zeljaja were also member of, as

 7     you clarified now, the State Defence Council.  Were they?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Now, can we have P2871.

10        Q.   Now, these are the minutes of the 4th meeting of the council held

11     on the 15th of May, 1992, starting at 10.00 in the morning.  And on the

12     list of attendees, we see your name in the third row.

13             And we see at point 1 decision on the organisation and

14     functioning of the Crisis Staff.  Looking at the bottom of the page in

15     English, we see that Dr. Milomir Stakic and Slavko Budimir participated

16     in the discussion and that the draft decision was approved under the

17     proviso that a representative of the garrison in Prijedor be added to the

18     proposed list of members of the Crisis Staff.

19             Now, I have two focused questions about the Crisis Staff.  First,

20     this was being established pursuant to a decision by the political

21     leadership of the Republika Srpska; right?

22        A.   I don't know how to answer your question.

23        Q.   Well, let's start with yes or no.  The Prijedor Crisis Staff was

24     being established here pursuant to a decision by the political leadership

25     of the Republika Srpska; right?

Page 31446

 1        A.   That's what was said, but I was not a politician.

 2        Q.   Who said it?

 3        A.   I don't remember who was it who presented the agenda, and I know

 4     that everybody was in charge of presenting one item of the agenda.  I

 5     believe that it was Dr. Stakic who dealt with this particular item.

 6        Q.   And it was he who said it was being established pursuant to a

 7     decision by the political leadership; right?

 8        A.   And, yes, now that you've jogged my memory, I can answer.  Yes.

 9     It was a long time ago.

10        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that there had earlier in

11     1992 been a Serb Crisis Staff in Prijedor as well.  Were you also aware

12     of that Serb Crisis Staff?  And I'm asking, just to be very precise, I'm

13     simply asking if you were aware of that Crisis Staff's existence.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Now, turning to page 2 in the English.

16        Q.   We see a reference to items 2 and 3.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And, I'm sorry, we'll need page 2 in both languages.

18        Q.   We see a set of conclusions.  And at point 3 we see the

19     conclusion:

20             "Start the transformation of both TO Staffs and form a unified

21     command for control and command of all the units formed in the territory

22     of the municipality."

23             Now, the reference to both TO Staffs means both your staff and

24     Mr. Kuruzovic's TO Staff; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31447

 1        Q.   And the effect of this decision was to take those two TO Staffs

 2     that were already under the control of what was then still the

 3     343rd Motorised Brigade and to begin formally integrating them into the

 4     brigade; right?

 5        A.   I can only talk about my staff and say that it was under that

 6     command.  I don't know much about Mr. Kuruzovic's SDS staff.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 31952, page 13.

 8        Q.   And this will be a part of Mr. Kuruzovic's testimony in the

 9     Stakic case.  Now, he was asked --

10        A.   I don't have the Serbian version.

11        Q.   I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, carefully listen to what will be read to

13     you, because there's only one authentic copy of this document; that is,

14     the English one.  So carefully listen to what Mr. Traldi reads to you as

15     evidence given by Mr. Kuruzovic.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Now beginning, for the Chamber and the Defence's

17     reference, at the end of line 4.

18        Q.   Mr. Kuruzovic says:

19             "About the second conclusion, the headquarters of the

20     Territorial Defence should be included in the single command.  As far as

21     I remember, it was later called the Command of the Region to avoid having

22     several military organisations.  Therefore, the staff of the

23     Territorial Defence commanded by Rade Javoric, and the staff in which I

24     was, which was not really a military organisation, were formally united

25     and resubordinated to the command of the region.  That is,

Page 31448

 1     Commander Arsic."

 2             And he explains and identifies the military post number.  And

 3     then beginning at line 16, he says:

 4             "And I also said that on the 16th or the 17th, I received an

 5     order to the effect that I and what was referred to as my staff and the

 6     staff of Mr. Javoric without any exceptions should be attached to the

 7     command of the region, that is, of the brigade, military postbox 4777."

 8             Now, first, that military post number, 4777, was the military

 9     post number for what was the 343rd Motorised Brigade of the JNA and later

10     the 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS; right?

11        A.   Yes, the 343rd Motorised Brigade, yes.

12        Q.   And what Mr. Kuruzovic testified to here is the truth, isn't it,

13     both of your Territorial Defence organisations were formally united and

14     resubordinated to the command of the region to Commander Arsic after this

15     meeting on the 15th of May?

16        A.   We're talking about 1992, right?

17        Q.   We are.

18        A.   I've already told you that in December we received that order and

19     in January we were already under the JNA command, and I hear only now

20     that Kuruzovic was supposed to do the same.  In January, we were already

21     in the barracks under the JNA command.  You will find that in my

22     statement.  You will see who was to be handed over, how.  Everybody but

23     Vahid Ceric did that.  Everybody signed that.  We were already under the

24     command of --

25        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you about what happened in December or

Page 31449

 1     January.  I'm asking you what Mr. Kuruzovic is saying about his TO being

 2     formally subordinated as of this time to the command of the region.

 3     That's the truth, isn't it, after the 15th of May --

 4        A.   I really can't comment on Kuruzovic's words.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's have P2871 back; page 2 in both

 6     languages.

 7        Q.   Now, at point 3, where it refers to both TO Staffs and forming

 8     them into a unified command, you agreed with me earlier "both TO Staffs"

 9     refers to your staff and Mr. Kuruzovic's; right?

10        A.   Yes, but we had been resubordinated a long time before that.

11        Q.   And a unified command of the region called the Prijedor Region

12     Command and later the Prijedor operational and Tactical Group was, in

13     fact, formed after this meeting, wasn't it?

14        A.   I can't confirm that it was its name, no.

15        Q.   And so despite being at this meet, despite the fact that the two

16     TO Staffs referred to here clearly, we agree, refer to yours and

17     Mr. Kuruzovic's, your testimony is you don't recall whether his was also

18     part of that unified command that was formed?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, because they

21     remained in their command posts in Cirkin Polje.  His men were not in the

22     same barracks where I was, so I can't remember.  Maybe they were

23     subordinated but they kept their former command post.  They did not share

24     our command post in the barracks.  They were not with us in the barracks,

25     that is.

Page 31450

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, later in that summer, elements of the 43rd Brigade command

 3     moved from the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks that you were just mentioning to

 4     a building called Kozara Putevi; right?

 5        A.   That happened later when a superior command was established.  I

 6     don't remember the date.  They were set up to unify all the forces.

 7        Q.   Was it -- was it while you were still in Prijedor?

 8        A.   No, I was already on a field mission.  But I did come to

 9     Prijedor Putevi later.

10        Q.   And what I've called Kozara Putevi and you've called

11     Prijedor Putevi, that's a building that's across the street from Keraterm

12     camp; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you say in your statement that the VRS did not secure

15     collection centres.  Now, were you ever in Keraterm camp yourself?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that there was a unit of

18     the VRS military police in the facility.  Were you aware of that?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And you were never in Omarska; right?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, is the -- the Chamber has received evidence that VRS

23     soldiers received passes to enter the facility and it's assisting in

24     providing security, and the VRS assisted in processing and investigating

25     prisoners there.  Is it your evidence you were also unaware of those

Page 31451

 1     things?

 2        A.   That's true.  Certain officers were tasked with talking to those

 3     who were in collection centres, and I told you that the unit did not

 4     provide immediate security.  It was the unit of Mr. Kuruzovic that was on

 5     the security detail.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now you are aware, however, that very serious crimes were

 7     perpetrated against the people detained in Omarska, Keraterm, and

 8     Trnopolje; right?

 9        A.   Yes, unfortunately that's true.

10        Q.   You're aware prisoners were murdered?

11        A.   I heard of that.

12        Q.   You're aware prisoners were raped?

13        A.   I'm not aware of that, but I did hear about that.

14        Q.   And, in fact, everyone in Prijedor at the time knew that people

15     this these collection centres were being -- these camps were being

16     detained in terrible criminal conditions; right?

17        A.   I can't confirm your words, meaning when you say that "everybody

18     in Prijedor" was aware of that.

19        Q.   I appreciate your precision and I understand you may not have

20     spoken to every resident of Prijedor yourself.  It was widely known in

21     Prijedor that people were being detained in terrible and criminal

22     conditions in these facilities, wasn't it?

23        A.   I was on the front line, and I was told that those were

24     collection centres.  I suppose that there were also those who were

25     renegades, who were not under anybody's control --

Page 31452

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   -- so there it was possible for them to storm in and do something

 3     bad, but thank God they'll be punished for that.

 4        Q.   In fact, no one was punished during the war for the crimes

 5     committed in any of those facilities, were they?

 6        A.   I wouldn't know.  If that indeed is true, then I can only say

 7     it's a pity.

 8        Q.   But you know --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- yes, please.

10             If you're still on the same subject, then I'll wait for a second.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   You do know that a number of people, including the commanders of

13     Keraterm and Omarska, as well as Zoran Zigic, have been convicted after

14     the war, both here and in Bosnia, for the crimes committed in those

15     facilities; right?

16        A.   I know about Zigic.  I can't remember the others, but there were

17     some others.  Banovic or -- yes, there were others as well.

18        Q.   Sikirica for Keraterm.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mejakic in Bosnia for Omarska?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the names, Mr. Traldi.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, the name that I'd said which didn't make the

24     transcript is M-e-j-a --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sikirica?

Page 31453

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   I'm just spelling a name, sir, so if you could just give me a

 3     moment.  M-e-j-a-k-i-c.

 4             And, sir, you're aware that he was convicted in Bosnia for crimes

 5     committed at Omarska; right?

 6        A.   Now I remember.  I think he is from Petrov Gaj, isn't he?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, I'm going to turn to another topic.

 8     If the Chamber --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I would have one question.

10             You said, and Mr. Traldi asked you questions about, that you

11     claimed that the military did not secure investigation and collection

12     centres in and around Prijedor, and then later you said, I think that it

13     was the unit of Mr. Kuruzovic who did so.

14             Now, we looked at the 15th of May minutes of the national

15     defence -- the Council for National Defence of Prijedor Municipal

16     Assembly.  Now we read there, and that was put to you at length, that

17     there was decision adopted that the two TO Staffs would form a unified

18     command for control and command of all the units in the territory of the

19     municipality, and we also looked at they were to be subordinated to the

20     43rd Brigade, Motorised Brigade.

21             Now, would you agree would me that if your TO Staffs were

22     subordinated to the 43rd Motorised Brigade that they had become units of

23     the military.  They had been integrated in the VRS structures, wasn't it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how can you then say that if it was

Page 31454

 1     Mr. Kuruzovic's unit which had by then become a unit of the VRS being

 2     integrated in the VRS structures, that you claim that the military did

 3     not secure investigation and collection centres in and around Prijedor,

 4     and at the same time tell us that it was Mr. Kuruzovic's unit?  Do you

 5     have any explanation for that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am precise.  When I said

 7     yesterday or earlier today that it was Kuruzovic's men who provided

 8     immediate security, they were not properly marked as army members, and

 9     the uniformed men provided security for the outer ring.  I was on the

10     front line, and I received that information from my colleagues, from my

11     associates who had remained there.

12             Allow me to say that already in May I received an order from

13     Zeljaja to open the corridor, and my job took me into the field.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Your statement reads:  I

15     claim that the military did not secure investigation and collection

16     centres in and around Prijedor.

17             It doesn't say anything about being providing security in an

18     outer ring or an inner ring.  You say they did not provide security

19     without any further limits.  At the same time, we've seen that you were

20     present at a meeting where it was decided that the TO Staffs would be

21     under a unified command and you testified, answering questions put to you

22     by Mr. Traldi, that they became subordinated in the 43rd Motorised

23     Brigade.

24             So, therefore, the two are -- where you were is a different

25     matter; but it seems that Mr. Kuruzovic, his unit, did provide security

Page 31455

 1     and was integrated in and subordinated in the army structures.

 2     Therefore, I still do not understand how you can reconcile that the

 3     military did not secure investigation and collection centres.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already explained.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you have explained already, then we'll

 6     consider your explanation as given.

 7             Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, you testified a moment ago that when Kuruzovic's men were

10     providing immediate security, they were not properly marked as army

11     members.  If you were never at any of these facilities, you, in fact,

12     don't know what uniforms they wore while they were providing security;

13     right?

14        A.   Precisely.  I was in the field preparing for the corridor, and I

15     learned from others, from Trnopolje, Kozarac, and other places who was

16     there and what they were like.  I didn't like any of that because in that

17     staff, unfortunately, there were those who had never served in the army,

18     there were volunteers, all sorts.  This is what I can tell you and that's

19     how things were.

20        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now to some VRS operations in late

21     May 1992.  In paragraphs -- in paragraph 22 of your statement, you refer

22     to an incident at Hambarine.  Now, you know, but you don't mention in

23     your statement, that after this incident, the VRS attacked and shelled

24     the village of Hambarine; right?

25        A.   You'll find it in my statement.  When I was with Mr. Niko Drincic

Page 31456

 1     in the barracks -- let me see what paragraph that is --

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you because you haven't answered my

 3     question.  There was an artillery attack on Hambarine the next day.  It

 4     was conducted by the VRS; right?  The day after the incident at the

 5     check-point.

 6        A.   Yes.  May I explain and tell you what I know?

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm going ask you to just answer the questions that I put to

 8     you rather than repeating the material that's in your statement.

 9             Now, you also mention in paragraph 24 you assert that the Muslim

10     forces attacked a military column in Kozarac.  Now, that -- that

11     incident, that was around a check-point at Jakupovici; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you don't mention it in your statement, but after that, the

14     VRS shelled and attacked Kozarac for two days and a large number of

15     Muslims were killed in that attack; right?

16        A.   Unfortunately, yes.

17        Q.   And there were VRS operations in other Muslim villages in

18     Prijedor municipality around the same time, including Kamicani, Kozarusa,

19     and other villages in Prijedor municipality; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, did you participate in the Kozarac operation yourself?

22        A.   No.  I went to the school in Susica one day and talked to the

23     commander of the Territorial Defence platoon in Kozarac to honour the

24     rules of the war and the ethics of conduct.

25        Q.   Now, these operations in late May 1992, after them, 7.000 or more

Page 31457

 1     Muslims were sent by the VRS to Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje; right?

 2        A.   It was not the VRS, as far as I know.  They wanted to be

 3     protected in those collection centres.  The situation was not safe for

 4     them where they were.  They went of their own will and the military just

 5     secured their passage to one of those collection centres in Keraterm,

 6     Omarska, Trnopolje.  That's as much as I know.  And I have some friends

 7     and neighbours who can confirm that.  They are still alive and well.

 8        Q.   I have a few follow-up questions --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first ask whether the witness has any

10     personal knowledge about who went voluntarily to, for example, Omarska.

11     Could you give us one person you are aware of that went voluntarily to

12     Omarska?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ernest Badnjevic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he hear that from himself?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what he told me.  Later

16     he joined the VRS and stayed there.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know of anyone -- he joined the VRS.

18     Was he detained in Omarska or was he not detained in Omarska?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some paramilitaries came to his

20     house and wanted to confiscate it.  Let's not go into details.  He told

21     me everything.  And then he asked to go up there, and from there he

22     joined the 5th Brigade.  Ernest Badnjevic, somebody had come to steal his

23     apartment, a paramilitary member.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was he a Serb, a Croat, a Muslim?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Muslim.

Page 31458

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what paramilitaries came to his house that

 2     made him choose to go to Omarska?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I spoke to Pero Spasojevic and

 4     the General Jakic, I heard that people were being armed in Prijedor at

 5     the time, Serbs and Muslims.  They were renegades, they were never

 6     trained.  They were not under the JNA or the TO.  And when I spoke to

 7     Jakic and Spasojevic, I told them that we should broaden our formations

 8     and to put them all under control, both Muslim and -- and Serb

 9     paramilitaries.  They didn't take that into account.  You will find --

10     see what the date was.  We wanted to put the situation under control

11     because chaos reigned supreme.  Everyone was arming themselves.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I stop you there.  A minute ago, you said

13     that you learned about very bad detention conditions in Omarska and that

14     people were killed and people were raped.  Now, is it your evidence that

15     people went there voluntarily and then were killed and raped?  Is that

16     how we have to understand your testimony?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who went there voluntarily

18     and who were not armed, who had not participated in any operations or

19     combat, who had not possessed illegal weapons, they were free to go from

20     there anywhere they wanted.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So people who -- were just free to leave Omarska if

22     they had not participated in any armed conflict?  Is that your testimony?

23     And how do you know that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you that I wasn't in

25     Omarska.  However, I learned from my Muslim and Croat colleagues and

Page 31459

 1     associates who were not armed, who had surrendered their weapons, and I

 2     can talk about Ljubo and others, nobody touched them.  If you will allow

 3     me, Your Honour, something very interesting about Donja and Gornja

 4     Ljubija, may I?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no, I'd rather --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm here to tell you the truth.

 7     That's what I wanted to do.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You're here --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted everybody out there to

10     hear how things were.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're here to answer questions in accordance

12     with the truth.

13             One final question:  You say those who had taken up arms

14     previously and were in Omarska, they were killed, many of them?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that, in your view, criminal to kill them

17     when they were in detention?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  One knows according to

19     international rules how one is supposed to behave towards prisoners.

20     Everybody knows that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, I put to you that you know people were being detained in

24     criminal conditions in a place where they were being killed and raped,

25     and your evidence that they were free to leave that place and stayed

Page 31460

 1     anyway is simply not credible.  There's no way anyone would have

 2     voluntarily stayed at Omarska, is there?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no -- no ...

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it happened three, four times today that

 6     I hear Mr. Mladic speaks at an audible volume, so he should refrain from

 7     doing that.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             And perhaps you answer the question first.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

11     witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer because the

13     interpreters did not catch it and come a bit closer to the microphone for

14     that purpose.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You were saying that Mr. Mladic is

16     making comments, but I don't even see him and I'm not paying any

17     attention to that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking any comment.  I was -- no -- first

19     of all, you may not know because you hear what is said through

20     interpretation, so you might have difficulties in knowing exactly when

21     Mr. Traldi is speaking, when I'm speaking.  I addressed Mr. Mladic and

22     that is in need of no comment whatsoever on your part.

23             Please answer the question.

24             And perhaps you repeat it, Mr. Traldi.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I thought that I was

Page 31461

 1     told in -- something in respect of Mladic's comments and I'm sorry.  I

 2     didn't understand.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That's accepted.

 4             Could you repeat your question.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, what I was putting to you was that you know people were

 7     being detained in criminal conditions in a place where prisoners were

 8     being killed and raped, and your evidence that they were free to leave

 9     and stayed anyway is simply not credible.  There's no way anyone would

10     have voluntarily stayed in Omarska, is there?

11        A.   Obviously you are asserting something to me, and you are asking

12     me to confirm something that you don't know.  How can you say that I knew

13     what was going on in Omarska when I say that I did not know?  Those who

14     did not have weapons went voluntarily and they could go out and they

15     could go to units, and I mentioned Ernest Badnjevic who left voluntarily,

16     who went to the unit, and now you are telling me that I knew.  Sorry.

17             Mr. President, I apologise, but I kindly ask you to protect me

18     from this.  I took an oath here and somebody is telling me that I'm

19     saying different.

20        Q.   Sir --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi is putting to you that where you said

22     that people were free to leave, that you're not telling the truth.  And

23     if you can comment on that, you can say, I did tell the truth -

24     therefore, you disagree with Mr. Traldi; or you say, no, you're right, I

25     did not tell the truth.  That's two options you have.

Page 31462

 1             May I take it you disagree with Mr. Traldi that -- who puts to

 2     you that you were not telling the truth about people voluntarily staying

 3     in Omarska?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that those people who did

 5     not have weapons, who did not take part in operations, asked for

 6     protection.  Please.  I am very precise when I express myself.  Those who

 7     were armed, though, and who did not want to return weapons, they could

 8     not leave.  Please.  I would like the general public to know about this

 9     as well.  I'm supposed to live there when I go back, and I'm telling the

10     truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't be concerned about the general public.  Be

12     concerned about giving clear and truthful answers to this Chamber.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, seeing other prisoners in the camp being murdered, hearing

16     them being murdered, seeing them being raped, anyone who could have left,

17     would have, wouldn't they?

18        A.   But how can you say to me that I see.  How are you expressing

19     yourself?

20        Q.   Sir --

21        A.   You are saying that I saw something there?  No.  Please speak

22     very precisely.

23        Q.   I did, sir.  And I'd ask you to answer the question as I put it.

24             If a prisoner in the camp who was free to leave saw other

25     prisoners being murdered, heard other prisoners being murdered, heard

Page 31463

 1     other prisoners being beaten, saw other prisoners being raped, heard

 2     other prisoners being raped, if they could have leave, they would have

 3     left; right?

 4        A.   Yes, there are some who left.  There's information, data, about

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I'd ask specifically in the context of the operations in late

 9     May and the 7.000 people taken prisoner immediately afterwards.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P2875.  And I'm looking for page 2 in

11     the B/C/S and the bottom of page 1 in the English.

12        Q.   This is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps Command dated 1st of

13     June, 1992.  The second paragraph in the B/C/S refers to heavy fighting

14     in the area of Hambarine, Prijedor, and Kozarac.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to the next page in the English only.

16        Q.   We read about troops under the command of the Prijedor area

17     clearing those areas.  And then in the next sentence, it reads:

18             "The troops have arrested more than 2.000 Green Berets who are

19     now in Omarska, 135 of them are in Stara Gradiska prison, and about 5.000

20     in the village of Trnopolje."

21             And it says:

22             "Among the arrested is a large number of officers an organisers

23     of paramilitary formations."

24             Now, the truth is what the 1st Krajina Corps was writing here,

25     that the people in Omarska and Trnopolje had been arrested, were being

Page 31464

 1     detained; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  But what is written here is paramilitaries.  Mostly

 3     paramilitaries.  Who were rampant in the area of Prijedor.  I can tell

 4     you exactly who this was, which units, but I am not allowed to say all of

 5     that.  I'm asked to answer questions only.  Can I ask through my lawyer

 6     to say a bit more about this because I know a lot about that period?

 7     Could I say at least a few sentences, at least one sentence?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, you do not have a lawyer in

 9     this courtroom.  Mr. Mladic has a lawyer.  That's one.

10             Second, if any of the questions put to you by Mr. Traldi are in

11     need of any follow-up questions, then the Defence of Mr. Mladic will take

12     care of it.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   I'd like to at one more document on this general topic, those

16     operations in late May.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P151, please.

18        Q.   Now, this is a daily combat report from the 1st Krajina Corps on

19     the 31st of May, 1992.

20             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could look at page 2 in the English and 3

21     in the B/C/S, point 5b.

22        Q.   And it refers to the confrontation with the enemy forces in

23     Prijedor.  And then it reads:

24             "After the actions in Kozarac, Kljuc, and Sanski Most, some

25     conscripts of Muslim nationality have asked to be released from the

Page 31465

 1     units.  They express their dissatisfaction with the massive destruction

 2     of their towns."

 3             Now, when you mentioned Muslims, other non-Serbs in the

 4     43rd Brigade, you didn't mention their dissatisfaction with the massive

 5     destruction of their towns as one of the reasons they left the VRS, but

 6     it was, in fact, wasn't it?

 7        A.   There are some who left; there are some who stayed.

 8        Q.   And you're aware, because you know a lot about these operations

 9     in Prijedor in late May 1992, that there was massive destruction of

10     personal property and cultural property, homes, mosques, in the Muslim

11     villages that were attacked by the 43rd Brigade; right?

12        A.   Yes, precisely.

13        Q.   And I want to look at just one more brief topic related to your

14     career.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document.

16        Q.   Now, in early 1993, you, for a time, received salary on two

17     separate grounds; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you also began displaying the rank of major before you'd been

20     promoted to be a major, didn't you?

21        A.   That is not true.  That is a fabrication.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's look at 65 ter 31995.

23        Q.   As it comes up, you're aware that the 5th Brigade did report that

24     you began displaying the rank of major before you'd been promoted to that

25     rank; right?

Page 31466

 1        A.   Can I explain so that everyone in this courtroom will be clear on

 2     that?  It should be done for the sake of the truth.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You should first answer the questions that are put

 4     to you.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And, sir, do we agree that this the 5th Brigade, Major Sobota,

 7     the chief of the intelligence department, sending, among others, to the

 8     1st Krajina Corps command an Official Note saying at point 1 that you

 9     were displaying the self-awarded rank of major?

10        A.   That is not correct.  The SDS and they wanted to have me removed

11     from that position, but --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the name --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who did not allow that.  You

14     also have a document here saying that they knew -- you have this here.

15     They didn't want to replace me because they knew that I was a normal

16     person.  Sobotic was from SDS as well.  He was an extremist, a bad one at

17     that.  I'm sorry to say that.  But Colonel Spasojevic did not allow my

18     removal from the position of commander because I was honest, honourable,

19     and loyal.  You have that in your documents, and I am telling the truth,

20     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Well, Colonel Spasojevic was your commander in 1991.  What

23     happened after this document in 1993 was that a month later

24     General Mladic promoted you to major, and it was made retroactive to the

25     point -- to a point before you began displaying the self-awarded rank of

Page 31467

 1     major; right?

 2        A.   I've already said that this is a fabrication and the fruit of the

 3     SDS.  This Colonel --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   I mean, no, the intelligence man.  The people who wanted to get

 6     rid of me from the very start.

 7        Q.   Sir, you have --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You have thoroughly explained why people were

 9     against you, but would you please answer the question that was put to

10     you.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   After this, about a month afterwards, General Mladic promoted you

13     retroactive to a time before you gain displaying the self-awarded rank of

14     major; right?

15        A.   I've already said that this is a fabrication.

16        Q.   Sir --

17        A.   In war time, ranks --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.

19             First question:  Were you promoted by General Mladic well after

20     the 17th of March of 1993?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the date.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you promoted with retroactive effect?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31996.

Page 31468

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I think that it should be correctly recorded what the

 3     witness said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you -- yes, if there's any interpretation --

 5     is it interpretation issue or is it that the transcript is not complete?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  It was not entered into transcript, it was not

 7     translated.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Incomplete.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we take a break very soon,

11     that --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe the gentleman could take off his --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether he speaks any English.

14             Do you speak or understand any English, Mr. Javoric?  Do you

15     speak or understand --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I do not speak it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- do you understand it?  Do you

18     understand it?

19             Okay.  We take it very simple.  The witness --

20             MR. LUKIC:  No, no --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no, it's fine.  We'll deal with it.

22             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You come back in 20

23     minutes.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

Page 31469

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I translated since he didn't have on headphones.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. -- yes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I can say, I think without tipping my hand too much,

 5     that this will be the only thing I have left after the break, this

 6     document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  But what did the witness --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Only the witness said -- said --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you hear the witness say which is not

10     recorded?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't wear insignia at all.  It was not in the

12     transcript, but he said I didn't wear.  It was not entered into

13     transcript.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That may be the case.  You'll verify,

15     Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. LUKIC:  That's why he thinks that it was fabrication.  I

17     didn't -- there -- there it says --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Where?  Could you give us --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- page and line numbers.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, yes, yes.  One second.

22             It's page 76, line 9, there is part of it.  I've already said

23     that this is a fabrication.  And then he -- I heard him telling:  I did

24     not wear insignia.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which was not an answer to the question, I

Page 31470

 1     think.  But if that is what he said, we can add that.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  But -- yeah, should be added since maybe there was

 3     order after this report.  But if he says that he did not wear insignia at

 4     all, then it changes everything.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's a different question, whether he --

 6     whether he already showed himself as being a major was not part of that

 7     question, I think, so to that extent.  But at least where he said it was

 8     a fabrication, I do understand that he's mainly then contesting that he

 9     presented himself as a major.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now apart from wearing insignia, there are other

12     ways of presenting yourself in certain positions, that is.  But that's

13     all speculation.  Apparently he said:  I didn't wear that.  We'll see

14     that.  We'll verify that, whether that's what he said.  And what that

15     means is a totally different matter.

16             We'll take a break and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.

17             Mr. Lukic, how much time would you need for re-examination?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I really hope I will finish today.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we go well beyond the time estimates on all

20     sides.

21             We resume at quarter to 2.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

25     into the courtroom, I would like to inform the parties that the Chamber

Page 31471

 1     is seriously considering to meet the concerns expressed by the Defence

 2     and to consider whether we could resolve it as suggested by the Defence

 3     through videolink 92 ter witnesses.

 4             But in order to explore all the practical details of that, the

 5     Chamber -- a meeting will be organised where Registry, Defence, and

 6     Chambers staff will be present, and the Prosecution is invited to be

 7     present as well, so as to explore all the practical details of that, such

 8     as travelling, such as protected witnesses, how to deal with that, such

 9     as where the videolink could take place, how to combine them.  And

10     depending on the outcome of that, where, of course, the Chamber hopes

11     that the parties will show some flexibility, the Chamber may decide to

12     follow the suggestion made by the Defence or decide not to do so.

13             Mr. Traldi, your last item.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir --

17             MR. TRALDI:  I suppose we've lost 65 ter 31996, but if we could

18     have it back on our screens.

19        Q.   Now, sir, it -- the translators haven't interpreted it.

20             MR. TRALDI:  But if we could zoom in on the left side of the page

21     in the B/C/S where there's red highlighting.

22        Q.   That's a reference to you; right?  Javoric Rade, son of Novak,

23     born in 1948?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And this document that General Mladic has type signed had the

Page 31472

 1     effect of providing you an early promotion to the rank of reserve

 2     infantry major as of the 16th of April, 1993; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  So what is unclear there?

 4        Q.   Nothing.  And I thank you for providing focused answers to those

 5     questions.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31995 and 31996 and

 7     that completes my cross-examination.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me.  Mr. President, please.

 9     May I explain?

10             Mr. President, please.  May I explain this for the sake of the

11     truth.  Just one sentence in relation to the order.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, it was brought to our

13     attention that during the last session, you would have said that you

14     never wore the insignia before you were promoted to major.  Is that what

15     you said when I interrupted you for not answering my question?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.  May I

17     explain why?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second, Witness.

19             I also asked you before the break whether the appointment as

20     major had retroactive effect.  You said it had not.  What we see on our

21     screen at this moment is a decision which, I take it, is of

22     16 April 1993, but I'll check that in the -- yes, it's a badly -- it's --

23     it's badly transcribed or --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] December 1992.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 31473

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen here.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The place where I see it.  Yes?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, wait.  We're not in a discussion.  I'm

 7     asking you questions.

 8             You earlier said that the decision to promote you to being a

 9     major had no retroactive effect.  Now this decision reads that the

10     promotion is effective as of the 16th of December, 1992, which is some

11     five months before the decision was taken.  I consider that to be

12     retroactive effect.  But if you disagree, please explain to us why this

13     is not a decision with retroactive effect.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Briefly, if you allow me.

15             The order from the General Staff needed to arrive to the corps

16     command, and then the corps command sends it further down the order.

17     Look at this down here:  Command of the 1st Krajina Corps.  See when they

18     sent it to me?  So this goes down the chain of subordination.  The higher

19     command sends the promotion to the lower-ranking command, and then the

20     lower one sends it further down, so the General Staff sent it on the 16th

21     of December, 1992, that I'm being promoted to the rank of general.  And

22     then they sent that to the corps command, and the corps command sent that

23     only on the 17th of April, 1993.  And that is why I am saying, for the

24     sake of the truth, that it could not have been done retroactively.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is your explanation that it was under way

Page 31474

 1     for five months, this decision, before it reached you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not my problem.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's your evidence.  I leave it to that.

 4             Mr. Lukic, any further questions for the witness.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It was tendered.

 8             And, Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31995 receives Exhibit P7120.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             Yes, please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31996 receives Exhibit P7121,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             I -- I still would have one question and perhaps a question on

16     another matter.

17             If this decision was issued on the 16th of December, 1992, how

18     would the one who put this on paper know that there was any need to

19     explain that it was effective on that date?  How could he guess that it

20     would be under way for five months?

21             Witness, could you tell us?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand now.  That's a

23     matter for the administration.  It's not for me.  General Mladic promoted

24     me on the 16th of December, 1992.  The corps command -- I mean, somebody

25     just kept this at the office and it was sent to me later on.  When I said

Page 31475

 1     it's not my problem, I was saying that it wasn't for me to resolve.  It

 2     was a matter for the administration to resolve.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the last

 4     sentence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you spoke too quickly for the last sentence.

 6             Now -- but what I put to you is that if it's delayed somewhere in

 7     the trajectory to reach you, what would be the need to already, not

 8     knowing what would happen, say it is effective on the --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Corps.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But... I leave it to that.  It -- it was issued by

11     the General Staff, the command of the General Staff, not of the corps but

12     of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13             Then I have a question in different matter where you also

14     repeatedly said that you'd like to explain something.

15             You were asked by Mr. Traldi, and I read it literally to you, and

16     you don't mention it in your statement but after that, and that was after

17     the Muslim forces attacked a military column in Kozarac, so after that

18     event:

19             "The VRS shelled and attacked Kozarac for two days and a large

20     number of Muslims were killed in that attack."

21             And then you confirmed that that was the case.  And you wanted to

22     explain.  Do you still confirm that that's the case; and what would be

23     your explanation?

24             So, first, do you still stand by your answer?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 31476

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And what --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I assert that, yes,

 3     regrettably, many forces were killed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then you said -- let me see.  No, let me

 5     just see.  One second, please.

 6             Yes, I made a mistake.  I -- I resume.  You were asked about the

 7     shelling of Hambarine.  You said in paragraph 22 of your statement you

 8     referred to an incident at Hambarine.  And Mr. Traldi said:

 9             "Now, you know, but you don't mention in your statement, that

10     after this incident, the VRS attacked and shelled the village of

11     Hambarine; right?"

12             And then you said:

13             "You'll find it in my statement."

14             My simple question to you is:  The shelling of Hambarine, did the

15     VRS shell Hambarine after the incident that took place there, an incident

16     you're referring to in paragraph 22?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  You will find

18     it in my statement.  The following day there was an artillery attack, and

19     that was shelling.  The penultimate sentence mentions an artillery

20     attack, which equals shelling, and you will find it in my statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So you confirm that the -- and that was the

22     question, that the VRS attacked and shelled after this incident, the

23     village of Hambarine; is that correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel Jakov Maric did

25     that.  We only learned that later.  We were all taken by surprise.

Page 31477

 1     Drincic and I did not know anything about that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there because you are referring to what

 3     we find in your statement.  What we find in your statement is that there

 4     was an artillery attack on a Hambarine "but I do not know who ordered it

 5     or who participated in it."  But you're now clearly telling us that you

 6     do know that the shelling was conducted by the VRS.

 7             Thank you for that answer.

 8             Mr. Lukic, any further questions for the witness?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  As I already said, yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric, once again good afternoon.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   I wanted to look at P7121.

16        A.   Which page?

17        Q.   Please bear with me.  You'll have it on the screen.  This is

18     about your promotion.  General Mladic's name is typed up.  The date is

19     17 April 1993.

20        A.   I thought we were done with that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please listen to the question and refrain

22     from further commenting.  You earlier said that you wanted to explain.

23     Then we said that if there are any follow-up questions that they'll put

24     to you by the Defence, and now you are blaming the Defence for doing what

25     you suggested they should.

Page 31478

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  There is no translation, Your Honour.  So I'm sorry,

 3     you will have to repeat now what you said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  That -- so the witness didn't hear it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I reminded the witness --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not received any

 8     translation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I reminded you that you should refrain

10     from any comments, and where you earlier expressed that you had a sincere

11     wish to explain, and then I told you that any follow-up questions would

12     be put to you by the Defence.  And now while they're doing what you

13     suggested they should do, you're complaining that the matter was done

14     with, as you said.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric, did it happen not only on this

18     occasion, were you aware of other such occasions when documents were

19     actually issued retroactively?

20        A.   A very difficult question.  I don't know.

21        Q.   Do you remember today when you actually learned that you were

22     promoted to the rank of major?

23        A.   When I received the order to that effect from the corps.  For me

24     that was legal, binding, and official, and that was in April.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 31479

 1        A.   1993.  On the 17th of April, 1993.

 2        Q.   Once again, this is not for you, I have to add something to be

 3     recorded on the transcript.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Witness said, and it was not recorded again, on page

 5     83, line 14, I'll say in B/C/S what he said, because I jotted down.

 6     There is a -- 83:14 --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you heard what the witness said where it was not

 8     interpreted, you can perhaps put a question in relation to that and see

 9     whether you -- by that means you can clarify what, in your view, is

10     missing.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you have a rank at that time?

13        A.   I've already told you.  I didn't wear any ranks.  Should I

14     explain?  Because your insignia is very visible and reflects in the

15     sunshine and you are an easy target.  None of the officers wore any

16     insignia.  It was not needed, so I did not wear any insignia, if that's

17     what you asked me.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We're now finally finished with this document, and

19     now I'm going to show you some others following the order that the

20     Prosecutor followed in his cross-examination.

21             A document was shown to you.  It is now P7118.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up, I would like to ask a

23     question for the witness.  I really don't fully understand the promotion

24     matter.

25             Mr. Witness, you said, that was on page 83:

Page 31480

 1             "General Mladic promoted me on the 16th of December, 1992," page

 2     83, line 10 and 11.

 3             Now you said, in response to Mr. Lukic:

 4             "When I received the --"

 5             And that is page 87, line 7:

 6             "When I received the order to that effect from the corps.  For me

 7     that was legal, binding, and official, and that was in April."

 8             Mr. Lukic says:

 9             "Very well."

10             And then your answer was:

11             "1993.  On the 17th of April, 1993."

12             Which of the two is true?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said in December, General Mladic

14     issued an order on my promotion and that order was sent to the corps.  I

15     was informed officially about that on the 17th of April, 1993.  Why did

16     the order take so long to reach me, I don't understand.  I told you that

17     we did not wear insignia when we were on the front line --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about insignia.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and we were on the front line

20     all the time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about insignia.

22             Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I -- have you finished, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 31481

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] This document that you before you now, is -- or,

 2     rather, it says in paragraph 3 -- not paragraph 3 of your statement but

 3     paragraph 3 on the screen.  It will be zoomed in for your benefit.  Count

 4     from the top of the page.  The third paragraph preceding the word

 5     "order," and it reads:

 6             "In order to create the optimal conditions for the life, work,

 7     and complete security of the employees at TO headquarters ... pursuant to

 8     strictly confidential order ... of the 5th Corps ..."

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the top of the page.  I need that, please.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] You can see in the document that this was issued

11     by the Regional Territorial Defence Staff.  Did you receive orders in

12     March of 1992 from the 5th Corps, you as the municipal staff, or did you

13     receive those orders from the District Territorial Defence Staff?

14        A.   I've already told you that along the command and control line we

15     received our orders from the District Territorial Defence Staff.  It was

16     common practice in -- in all staffs.

17        Q.   Very well.  At that time, did you ever receive any direct orders

18     from the 5th Corps?

19        A.   To be honest I can't remember, but I don't think so.  We could

20     receive those only through our superior District Staff.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up ...

23     [In English] I don't know if this one is offered into evidence.  I do not

24     have P number.  65 ter number was 32021.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P7119.

Page 31482

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Let us zoom in this page where it says "rump condemnation of

 5     private war."  The date when this issue of Oslobodjenje appeared, as we

 6     can see on the first page, is the 1st of October, 1991.  Oslobodjenje

 7     here reports, and it was suggested to you, that General Uzelac launched

 8     mobilisation calls illegally.

 9             It says here:

10             "Yesterday, the BH government assessed as an unconstitutional and

11     illegal enactment the general mobilisation in the area of the

12     Banja Luka Corps of the JNA."

13             That's at the very top of the article.  Do you know what was

14     going on in the BH government at that time?  Were decisions taken

15     unanimous?  Did you know anything about that part of political life?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On the 1st of October 1991, what was the situation like?

18        A.   The Serbs were mostly always voted over.

19        Q.   You are saying that the general who came to inspect after the

20     mobilisation had been proclaimed -- I forgot his name.

21        A.   I remember.  General Fikret Jakic, he was the chief of the

22     Republican Staff of the Territorial Defence.

23        Q.   Did he tell you when he came to control you that that

24     mobilisation was illegal?

25        A.   No, he did not.

Page 31483

 1        Q.   Once again, what was Mr. Jakic's ethnicity?

 2        A.   Muslim.

 3             Can I ask you something?

 4        Q.   No, you cannot.

 5        A.   Why are you always asking me about people's ethnicity?

 6        Q.   You are not here to put questions.

 7        A.   I apologise.  This is just my instinct.

 8        Q.   I know that teachers are trained to put questions to others, but

 9     you're here to answer them, I'm afraid.

10             And now let's look at a document that has been discussed quite a

11     lot in this courtroom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need?  Because if it's

15     anything like ten minutes, I would seek the co-operation and the --

16             MR. LUKIC:  I will need at least 15, 20 minutes.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll adjourn for the day.  At the same

19     time ...

20             We'll adjourn for the day.  I want to instruct you that you

21     should not speak with anyone or communicate with anyone about your

22     testimony, whether given today or still to be given tomorrow.  Keep

23     control over your instincts, I would say, because you caused quite some

24     delay by again and again wanting to say something which you were not

25     asked and to comment, and you should have refrained from that, and we

Page 31484

 1     expect you tomorrow to do nothing else than to answer the questions so

 2     that we can conclude your testimony as quickly as possible.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow,

 7     Wednesday, the 11th of February, at 9.30 in the morning, Courtroom I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

10                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.