1 Thursday, 12 February 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Perhaps I could deal with one matter very briefly. It is about
12 remaining issue from the testimony of Slavisa Sabljic. It is about
13 P7052, -53, and -54.
14 On the 23rd of January of this year during the testimony of
15 Slavisa Sabljic, the Prosecution tendered three audio clips with 65 ter
16 numbers 01643d, same number, small e, and same number, small c.
17 The Defence objected but was unable to articulate grounds for its
19 The Chamber exceptionally marked the audio clips for
20 identification, respectively as P7052, P7053, and P7054, and granted the
21 Defence limited time to develop its objections. This can be found at
22 transcript pages 30565 through 30566.
23 As of today's date, the Defence has not made any further
24 submissions with regard to its objection and therefore the Chamber will
25 now decide on admission.
1 The Chamber notes that these audio clips are, according to the
2 Prosecution, tape recorded conversations between the accused and his
3 subordinates, and Witness Sabljic testified that he recognised the voice
4 of the accused on these audio clips. This can be found at transcript
5 pages 30559, 30562, through 30564 and 30566.
6 And therefore the Chamber finds that P7052, P7053, and P7054 are
7 relevant and of probative value and admits them into evidence.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, our apologies for continuing dealing
12 with the matter we were dealing with when you entered the courtroom.
13 We'll continue in a minute, but I would like to remind you that
14 you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the
15 beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole
16 truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 Mr. Jeremy will now continue his cross-examination.
18 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. And good morning.
19 WITNESS: NENAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy: [Continued]
22 Q. And good morning to you, Mr. Davidovic.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Now, yesterday in your diary and in Mr. Rasula's diary we looked
25 at a list of names of leading non-Serbs in Sanski Most who were to be
1 arrested or captured. Now, a number of these men were indeed captured,
2 and they were made to appeal to their fellow non-Serb citizens over the
3 public radio in Sanski Most; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'd look to look at some of those broadcasts now, or the
6 transcript of those broadcasts.
7 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3302 on our screens. And if we
8 could please go to page 5 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. So, sir, we see that this is a transcript of broadcasts made over
10 the radio in Sanski Most during late May 1992, and I would like to direct
11 your attention to the female voice identified on the page in front of you
12 which reads as follows:
13 "We call upon the inhabitants of Pobrijezje to bring all their
14 weapons and military equipment to the cross-roads at the check-point by
15 1800 hours. If not, at exactly 1810 hours we will begin to shell the
16 village. If the order is not complied with, we will not bear moral or
17 material responsibility for the consequences of the shelling."
18 Now, sir, Pobrijezje is familiar to you; correct?
19 A. Yes, that is a village close to Sanski Most. About 2 or 3
20 kilometres away from town.
21 Q. Now I would like to direct your attention to the male voice
22 identified below the excerpt I just read out. We see that it reads as
24 "The Serbian armed forces captured the greatest Muslim and
25 Croatian extremists in the Sanski Most municipality. Faik Biscevic who
1 attempted to flee from the town."
2 And it goes on to say that this extremists will address the
3 Croatian and Muslim peoples over the radio. And I'd like to just look at
4 a part of Faik Biscevic's address.
5 So we see at the -- at the bottom of the page in the English:
6 "Announcement. That all Muslims and Croats unconditionally hand
7 over all the weapons they possess ..."
8 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to the next page in the English,
10 Q. "... legally and illegally and that they surrender to the Serbian
11 army and government because this is a Serbian town. To avoid the
12 soldiers having to use force and locate and seize weapons, it would be
13 better to hand over the weapons voluntarily, otherwise
14 Sana/Sanski Most/will continue to be destroyed until final capitulation."
15 So, Faik Biscevic, you mentioned him in your statement, and you
16 actually mentioned him yesterday in connection with Dr. Mehmed Alagic
17 saying that you considered Mehmed Alagic an extremist because he was
18 under the influence of Faik Biscevic.
19 Now, Mr. Biscevic was a fellow dentist in Sanski Most; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he was forced by the Serbian authorities to make this
22 address, wasn't he?
23 A. I think so. But he didn't work as a dentist. He was a goldsmith
24 in town before the war. He didn't work at the health centre.
25 Q. Now, this announcement -- well, yesterday you told this Court
1 that the entry in your diary relating to the handing in of weapons
2 applied to Serbs, Croats, and Muslims alike and that it was only weapons
3 held illegally for which documentation did not exist that had to be
4 handed in. Now, it's very clear that this announcement is aimed only at
5 Muslim and Croats and that it applies to both legal and illegal weapons.
7 A. My understanding was that illegal weapons were being taken away.
8 Now I see here that it was different.
9 Q. So this is the first time that - to your knowledge - non-Serbs
10 were asked to hand in legally held weapons. Is that your testimony?
11 A. Yes. This is the first time I hear that the legal ones were
12 being taken away as well.
13 Q. So yesterday when you said that you considered extremists to be
14 persons with weapons, then, if I understand what you're saying today,
15 then what you meant was that an extremist was someone who held a weapon
16 illegally without the required documentation; is that correct?
17 A. Illegal. Who had illegal weapons. And that kind of thing did
19 Q. Now, I would like to change topic briefly. You were involved in
20 sanitation activities following disarming operations in Sanski Most in
21 late May and June 1992; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, this Chamber has received evidence that Muslims killed
24 during these operations were buried in common graves without the usual
25 burial rights and in the absence of their families.
1 MR. JEREMY: That's P2407.
2 Q. Now, you knew that Muslims were buried in this way; correct?
3 A. Afterwards I heard that they were buried in a common grave.
4 Q. And did you also hear that they were buried in the absence of
5 their family?
6 A. I think I did.
7 Q. And the reason why they were buried in the absence of their
8 family were because all of their family were locked up in various
9 locations in Sanski Most at the time of their burial; yes?
10 A. That I could not say. Where they were, that is.
11 Q. Okay. Well, let's try and get to the bottom of where they were.
12 And to do that, I'd like to look at your diary again, please.
13 MR. JEREMY: Could we see 65 ter 19777. And if we could go to
14 page 23, please.
15 Q. So, sir, we see that this is another Crisis Staff meeting. It's
16 on the 28th of May, 1992. First entry is:
17 "- Exchange through Jajce."
18 That's in Central Bosnia; correct?
19 A. Yes, yes. That's above Sanski Most, over there towards Jajce.
20 Q. Next entry we see:
21 "Pobrijezje wants to move out voluntarily from the territory of
22 the municipality of Sanski Most."
23 Now, this is the same village that was warned over the radio that
24 their village would be shelled if all weapons were not brought to a
25 check-point; correct?
1 A. Pobrijezje? That's that?
2 Q. Yes, but it's the same village referred to in the radio broadcast
3 we just looked at; correct?
4 A. The same village. There is no other one but that one.
5 Q. Now, if you decide to leave your village in response to someone
6 threatening to shell it, then that decision to leave is not really one
7 you've taken voluntarily, is it?
8 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It asks for at least some kind of judgement.
10 I take it that you, Mr. Jeremy, you consider this not to be a way
11 of leaving from your own free will and that you invite the witness to
12 comment on that position.
13 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JEREMY: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy considers, under those circumstances,
17 that people are not leaving from their own free will and wonders whether
18 you have any comment on that position he takes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there was a dose of
20 fear there. As for the rest, no comment.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Ivetic, whether you do something of your free will or not is
23 not a legal conclusion but indeed contains some judgement.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Now, sir, looking down this entry, we see at point 4 and then
2 point 5 the following:
3 "- Men in the sports hall, N. Front primary school."
4 N. front is a reference to the Narodni front primary school;
6 A. Yes, yes, the elementary school Narodni front.
7 Q. And we see below that a reference to women and children in the
8 sports ground. You see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you say that you -- you could not say where the various
11 persons who had been locked up in Sanski Most were at this time then,
12 it's clear that, at least on the 28th of May, 1992, you were very clear
13 where those persons were; correct?
14 A. It is obvious that they were detained at the front, at the sports
15 hall, and the sports hall of the high school centre.
16 Q. And when yesterday you said that you didn't know if civilians
17 were captured and you didn't know where they were to be accommodated,
18 then does this refresh your recollection that civilians were indeed
19 captured and placed at these locations?
20 A. I really don't remember when all these people were brought in and
21 how many there were, women, children, men, et cetera. But I know that at
22 that sports hall at that collection centre there was a medical team
24 Q. Well, sir, yesterday it wasn't a question -- you didn't say you
25 didn't remember when. You said you don't remember if they were at all
1 captured and placed in these locations. Let's --
2 A. It's been a long time. I really cannot remember how all of that
4 Q. Let's go to another entry in the -- in your diary, which is two
5 days later.
6 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 29, please.
7 Q. So this is an entry, sir, dated the 30th of May, 1992. It's
8 again a Crisis Staff meeting. And I would like to focus your attention
9 on the bottom half of the page where we -- we see below the reference to
10 ten tractors, we read the words:
11 "Civilians should be banned from entering destroyed
13 And then two entries below that, we read:
14 "- Collect all bodies in a single place."
15 And below that:
16 "- Exclude those who talk too much."
17 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to the next page, pleases.
18 Q. Well, I'll ask you a question on those entries, sir. This
19 reference to civilians being banned from entering destroyed neighbours
20 and excluding those who talk too much, this -- this is an attempt to hide
21 what had happened in places such as Mahala; correct?
22 A. No. I think that civilians were banned from entering because of
23 looting, because of looting the abandoned homes.
24 Q. And if the reason that they were not allowed to enter was because
25 of looting, then why was it necessary to exclude those who talked too
2 A. Because there were speculations. People were talking, saying all
3 sorts of things, increasing, decreasing the number of casualties,
4 victims, and that was supposed to be prevented. This kind of
5 misinformation that was going out that was incorrect.
6 Q. Now, the final entry in this set of entries is the following:
7 "- there is a possibility of addressing them in our uniforms."
8 Now -- and I should note that the entry that precedes that at the
9 top of the page refers to:
10 "- They will come for the bodies at 09:00."
11 Now, sir, this is an attempt to cover up the killing of unarmed
12 civilians by making them look like military, is it not, by dressing them
13 in military clothes?
14 A. I don't think that's the way it was. My proposal was that people
15 who were at Hrustovo -- I mean, who were killed in fighting, whatever,
16 they wore very little clothing. For two or three days, the corpses were
17 out there in the open. Wild animals reached them. It had been raining.
18 And I suggested that the people be dressed in a dignified manner, at
19 least to be wearing dry and proper clothing. At the Red Cross, they said
20 that there was no clothing and --
21 Q. Sir, this diary entry is dated the 30th of May, 1992. Now
22 that's -- that's at least a day before the men, women, and children in
23 Hrustovo and Vrhpolje were killed. So this reference to "dressing them
24 in our uniforms" has got nothing to do with Vrhpolje or Hrustovo.
25 A. But the main thing was that the Red Cross had no clothes, and my
1 suggestion was that we had clothing from the medical corps so that they
2 would be buried in a dignified manner. That was not accepted, though.
3 So they were buried as they were. And there was no intention to conceal
4 anything nor is it possible to conceal anything.
5 Q. So your position is that your suggestion to dress dead people in
6 military uniforms was an act of charity?
7 MR. IVETIC: Object. Misstates the answer of the witness. The
8 witness said "clothing from the medical corps," not military uniforms.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the document says uniforms.
10 MR. IVETIC: Not military, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, military. That's a -- well, okay.
12 Witness, could I ask you, where you refer to uniforms here, you
13 said earlier that these were the uniforms that were available where,
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what we had in the reserve.
16 The medical corps.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were those military uniforms?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was -- I mean, medical
19 staff. Uniforms for medical staff.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's still military medical staff, isn't
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military medical, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is, military uniforms to be worn by those
24 who are performing medical duties.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I also get clarity here.
3 You're saying the intention was to give these witnesses a
4 dignified burial. Would you not regard as giving them a dignified burial
5 also to make sure that they are buried in the presence of their
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be, but it was not
8 possible. There were war operations, things like that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would have been humane.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it was inhumane to do -- not to bury them in
12 the presence of their relatives. Is that your position?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Sir, let's move on to another entry in your diary.
18 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 31.
19 Q. We see a 31 at the top of the page, which might indicate the 31st
20 of May. We see it's another Crisis Staff meeting. At number 5) Various,
21 we see a reference to deportation towards Jajce should be carried out.
22 We see a reference to military-aged persons should be sent to Manjaca.
23 Now, sir, you're aware that many non-Serbs captured in
24 Sanski Most during these operations were sent to Manjaca camp; yes?
25 A. I heard that they were sent to Manjaca, yes.
1 Q. And I should also clarify, this reference to deportation towards
2 Jajce, that's a reference to the deportation of non-Serbs; correct?
3 A. That's a reference to the evacuation of the civilian population
4 to Jajce.
5 Q. Well, the word is -- that I read is "deportation."
6 Let's go to the next page, sir. Now, at the top of the page, we
7 see a reference to: "The bridge under the Biscevic house has a
8 basement ..." this is a reference to the house of the family of
9 Faik Biscevic; correct?
10 A. I think so. I think this is a reference to his house.
11 Q. Now, there is evidence in this case that after he was taken into
12 custody that the Biscevic home and businesses were looted and set on
13 fire. Were you aware of that?
14 A. No, I heard that the house had been shelled. I know nothing
15 about looting. I really don't.
16 Q. Okay. Now you refer to the Biscevic family in your statement and
17 you refer to his son who I believe was a dentist; correct?
18 A. Correct. We worked together.
19 Q. And you say in your statement that he -- that his son,
20 Haris Biscevic, and his father both had a role in the arming of Muslim
21 units. And you say that before the war, Haris Biscevic told you that
22 dentistry was going to belong to the Muslims and that it would bear the
23 name of Biscevic. That's correct, isn't it?
24 A. Correct. He said that publicly in a meeting.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, Faik Biscevic had three sons in total, didn't
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And all four of those Biscevic men were sent to Manjaca; correct?
4 A. I wouldn't know where they were sent. I know that Faik was, but
5 I don't know about the others.
6 Q. Now, I'd like to show you a document in connection with this to
7 see if it refreshes your recollection.
8 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 31993.
9 Q. And, sir, coming up on our screens is a -- it's an article from
10 the press, from the Sanski Most press, and it relates to the Biscevic
11 family. It's dated the 20th of April, 2007. The article concerns the
12 family and the death of one son at Manjaca, Edin, and the disappearance
13 of another one of the sons, Haris, who you mention in your statement.
14 Sir, we see that the picture of Nedin Biscevic together with his
15 mother. Do -- you recognise those people; yes?
16 A. Nedin Biscevic? No. And whether this is Jasminka, that's the
17 other thing you're asking me?
18 Q. Yes, if that's the name of Faik Biscevic's wife, then I'm asking
19 if you recognise her.
20 A. The mother, yes.
21 Q. Do --
22 A. I know Jasminka but I don't know the man.
23 Q. Do you recall seeing this particular article before?
24 A. No, I've never seen it before.
25 Q. Now, it -- very briefly, it explains that Nedin's twin brother,
1 Edin, disappeared from Manjaca on the 7th of July, 1992 and that he was
2 later identified through DNA in 2007. It also explains that his other
3 brother Haris, who you mention in your statement, who was also taken to
4 Manjaca, was still missing as of 2007.
5 Now as regards Edin, who disappeared on the 7th of July, 1992,
6 this Chamber has received evidence that on that date a number of men
7 suffocated to death while being transported from Betonirka to Manjaca.
8 Now, Faik Biscevic testified in the Brdjanin case that his son Edin
9 disappeared after going to the aid of these men on the 7th of July, 1992.
10 Did you know about Edin's disappearance?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You were, however, aware of these suffocations on the 7th of
13 July, 1992, on transport that was going from Betonirka to Manjaca?
14 A. I learnt about that only later.
15 Q. So the medical technician that you said was -- yesterday was at
16 Betonirka, they didn't tell you about this particular event?
17 MR. IVETIC: I believe this misstates the evidence. I believe
18 the event did not take place at Betonirka, according to my recollection
19 of the evidence, which has not been cited by counsel.
20 MR. JEREMY: My question was whether the medical technician at
21 Betonirka told the witness anything about that event which I don't think
22 in any way misstates the evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
24 MR. JEREMY:
25 Q. Sir, yesterday you told us a medical technician was based at
1 Betonirka. My question for you is whether that medical technician told
2 you anything about these deaths in this transport that went from
3 Betonirka to Manjaca on the 7th of July, 1992?
4 A. There was a medical technician. Nobody informed me about any
5 suffocations. I only learned about them later.
6 Q. And you were chief of the medical service in the 6th Brigade by
7 the 7th of July, 1992; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So this was a convoy from Sanski Most to Manjaca military camp, a
10 convoy on which many men died, they suffocated to death, and nobody got
11 into contact with you in your capacity as the leading medical person in
12 the 6th Brigade in the area from which these men originated; correct?
13 A. I believe that the health centre was in charge of the transport
14 of people to Manjaca. They were in charge of that.
15 Q. And you were -- you yourself used to work at the health centre.
16 You must have had very many contacts there. There are the series of
17 meetings in your diary at the health centre. Nobody from the health
18 centre told you anything about these events then; correct?
19 A. Up to that time, I did not hear anything about that. It was only
20 subsequently that I learned from the health centre -- or, rather, from
21 some people at the health centre, that there were deaths due to
23 Q. And when was that?
24 A. Perhaps some ten days after the transport.
25 Q. And what steps did you take on hearing that in your capacity as
1 chief of the medical service in the 6th Brigade?
2 A. None. Because the military did not secure the transport. It was
3 the medical health centre that was in charge of that.
4 Q. So you didn't know about this event at the time. You heard about
5 it only later. But you do know for certain that the military didn't
6 secure the transport?
7 A. I'm sure that the military medical service did not provide
8 medical security for the transport. It was the health centre that was in
9 charge of that.
10 Q. Let's move on.
11 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31993 receives Exhibit number P7124,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 Mr. Jeremy, could I ask the witness --
17 You said:
18 "I'm sure that the military medical service did not provide
19 medical security for the transport."
20 Who organised the transport?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And how do you know that the health centre was
23 providing medical care for that transport?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Grubisa told me that. He was
25 the director of the health centre.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any medical security during that
2 transport? What did it look like?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know that because I did
4 not participate in the exercise.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But Dr. Grubisa told you about providing medical
6 care for the transport. What -- did he just in general terms say, "We
7 provided medical care for the transport"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In general terms. He told me that
9 the medical centre is in charge of escorting and providing the necessary
10 medical assistance to the convoy en route to Manjaca.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So you do not know anything about what medical
12 security was provided for the transport at all?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't. But I believe
14 that there were medical technicians.
15 JUDGE ORIE: During the transport?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there were teams of
17 escorts and that some of them were medical technicians. I think that
18 that was the case.
19 JUDGE ORIE: How were these teams then composed? Who was in
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you how the medical
22 service was organised. As for the civilian branch, I really don't know
23 how it was organised. The medical service in the army had battalions,
24 brigades, and the medical service of the brigade. There was a company
25 medical assistant, a battalion medical assistant, and a technician, and a
1 brigade medical assistant and technician.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the organisation of the structure.
3 Now, do you know, that transport, was there any responsibility
4 for the military as far as you are aware of for that transport? Were
5 they involved in any way?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. But I believe there
7 were few or none. If the military had been involved, they would have
8 turned to me and requested medical escorts for the convoy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unless they would have failed to comply with
10 their duties. Would you agree with that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you say if there were military involved, they
13 would have come to me. Now, it may well be that they should have, but it
14 doesn't mean that if there were any military involved that they, indeed,
15 would have come to you. I'm just putting to you that that is a
16 possibility as well and whether you agree with that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible but it doesn't make
18 sense. I believe that they would have requested medical security if they
19 had been in charge of the transport.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least if they were concerned about the
21 health of those they were transporting. That is an assumption, I take
22 it, which is at the basis of your observation. Is that correctly
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly well and correctly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. And, sir, we are moving to my final area now. Could we please go
3 to page 42 of your diary.
4 MR. JEREMY: 65 ter -- sorry, 19777. Thank you.
5 Q. So, sir, this entry is dated the 8th of June, 1992. It's another
6 Crisis Staff meeting. And I want to focus -- I'd like to focus your
7 attention on the conclusions of that meeting, and particularly number 4
8 which reads:
9 "Move the Muslims and the Croats to the extent which would
10 provide for a steady control of power."
11 Now, sir, that reflected a decision reached at a meeting of
12 representatives of the various municipalities in the ARK the day before;
14 MR. JEREMY: And that's P3753 in this case.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you putting your questions to
17 MR. JEREMY:
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I did not understand you.
20 Q. Yes, sir. My question is whether this reference to move the
21 Muslims and Croats to the extent which would provide for a instead
22 control of power reflected, to your knowledge, a decision reached the
23 previous day at a meeting of representatives of the various
24 municipalities in the ARK.
25 A. ARK. Is that the Autonomous Province [as interpreted] of
2 Q. Yes, sorry. The Autonomous Region of Krajina.
3 A. Yes, but I did not have any contacts with that body as a medical
4 professional. I was not aware of any of their decisions.
5 Q. Okay. Let's move on.
6 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to the next page, please.
7 Q. And we see at number 2:
8 "The following persons are to be freed from the hall:"
9 And the first category is:
10 "- those who voted for Yugoslavia."
11 So, sir, by reading that, my understanding is that if you did not
12 vote to stay in Yugoslavia then you were to remain a prisoner in the
13 sports hall; is that correct?
14 A. That's true.
15 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 46 in the diary.
16 Q. And, sir, we see that this is dated the 10th of June, 1992. It's
17 another Crisis Staff meeting. And point 1 refers to: "Transport of women
18 and children."
19 So this refers to the transport of these women and children out
20 of Sanski Most; correct?
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. And we're moving quickly, I know.
23 MR. JEREMY: But could we go to page 48, please.
24 Q. And this is another Crisis Staff meeting on this same date, the
25 10th of June, 1992. And we read in the first bullet point:
1 "- The job of deportation of a part of Muslim population failed.
2 Lots of mistakes.
4 "1. Appoint a person for the deportation of the part of
6 "2. for the Crisis Staff president."
7 Now, sir, there's evidence in this case - P733 - that on the 14th
8 of June, so four days later, General Talic reported to the VRS Main Staff
9 that the attempt to expel Muslim and Croat refugees in the region of the
10 ARK, of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, to Central Bosnia had failed
11 because of transportation difficulties and their resistance to leaving
12 their places of residence.
13 So, sir, my question is whether you were aware that the
14 difficulties that we see that you were clearly facing in Sanski Most in
15 expelling or deporting Muslims and Croats were also being communicated to
16 the Main Staff as problems being experienced in the entire region of the
18 Sir, should I repeat my question?
19 A. Yes, please.
20 Q. The question is whether you were aware that the difficulties that
21 you faced in Sanski Most in deporting the Muslim population was also
22 being communicated to the Main Staff as being a problem experienced
23 across the entire region of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.
24 A. No, I was not aware of the problems.
25 Q. Now, we read here - and I've already read it out - that there was
1 this proposal to appoint a person for the deportation of part of the
2 population. Now within a couple of weeks of this diary entry, a man
3 called Bosko Banjac was appointed to form a commission for this very
4 purpose; correct?
5 A. Yes, Bosko Banjac was appointed for the task.
6 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P3787 on our screens.
7 Q. Sir, while this is coming up, I can tell you that they are the --
8 this document provides the conclusions of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most
9 dated the 23rd of June, 1992. So we see the date there at the top
10 left-hand corner, 23 June 1992, and we see that there are decisions.
11 MR. JEREMY: And if we look at the bottom of the page in the
13 Q. We see that:
14 "All municipalities in the territory of the Autonomous Region of
15 Krajina are tasked to appoint one representative to deal with the matters
16 of relocation and exchange of population and prisoners. The appointments
17 should be faxed to Vojo Kupresanin."
18 Kupresanin was the president of the ARK Assembly; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, following what I've just read out, we read:
21 "In accordance with this, the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most
22 municipality appoints Vlado Vrkes to the aforementioned duty."
23 MR. JEREMY: And if we can also go to the second page in the
24 B/C/S, please. If we could go to the bottom of the page in the English,
1 Q. And then we see number 4:
2 "Bosko Banjac is ordered to form a Commission for population
3 migration consisting of 5 members."
4 Now, sir, within a few months of this committee for population
5 migration, it was -- this committee was facilitating the departure of
6 thousands of non-Serbs out of Sanski Most; correct?
7 A. I believe so.
8 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to my final exhibit, 65 ter 31784,
9 please. When --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the number.
11 MR. JEREMY: Yes, 65 ter 31784. Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, coming up on our screens are conclusions adopted at the 11th
13 Session of the Executive Committee of Sanski Most Municipal Assembly and
14 then now on our screens.
15 So we see it refers to a session being held on the 14th of
16 August, 1992. And we see "Conclusion." And below that, we see the
17 report by Bosko Banjac, chairman of the relocation commission, on the
18 course of the voluntary departure of the population from the area of
19 Sanski Most was approved. We read that:
20 "All persons who have expressed a wish to move out voluntarily
21 and have the required documentation, i.e. a telex guaranteeing them
22 accommodation, will be allowed to do so."
23 Number 3, there is a reference to the first group of 3.000 people
25 And number 4, we read they are to pay a thousand dinars.
1 Now, sir, this document refers to people wanting to move out
2 voluntarily. Now, the reality is, is that they were not moving out
3 voluntarily. They were being expelled, as indicated in your own diary
4 entry three months earlier; correct?
5 A. I can't say that they moved out voluntarily or under duress. I
6 believe that there were both kinds of people and both cases.
7 Q. Well, sir, in the two hours that we've been talking, we've seen
8 Muslim and Croat leaders were arrested, their neighbourhoods threatened,
9 attacked, their homes destroyed, members of these groups killed or
10 imprisoned, separated from their families, buried without their families,
11 and your position is that their departure was voluntary; correct?
12 A. Well, maybe. Couldn't rule it out. Because everybody is afraid
13 of the war.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JEREMY: No further questions, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy. It's time for a break.
17 We would like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may follow the
18 usher, Mr. Davidovic.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Jeremy, are you --
21 MR. JEREMY: Yes.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- tendering the last document?
23 MR. JEREMY: I am, Your Honours. Thank you. And I also need to
24 talk about the tendering of the --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 19777.
1 MR. JEREMY: -- diary.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that there is an issue of making a
3 selection, a relevant selection.
4 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours.
5 MR. IVETIC: I propose we wait until after the redirect because I
6 will also be using some pages from the diary. I am not sure if they are
7 all the same ones that were used by the Prosecution or not.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's understood. That's the usual
9 procedure, that we wait what parts were used by the parties, and that
10 then the final selection will be made and sought to be admitted by the
11 party who tendered it.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the last document, which is still on the
13 screen, this is a different matter, I think.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JEREMY: Yes, sorry I've conflated those two. I would like
16 to tender 65 ter 31784, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31784 receives Exhibit number P7125,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 We take a break and will resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready, you may proceed with
2 the re-examination of the witness.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
5 Q. Good morning, Doctor.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. I'd like to return to your diary.
8 MR. IVETIC: 65 ter number 19777, page 13.
9 Q. Now, the first bullet point under disarming the population, says:
10 "- not necessary to seize weapons if they own a valid permit."
11 Did anyone at the Crisis Staff ever make a different proclamation
12 in this regard or change this which is written here from this meeting?
13 A. I don't know of anything different. That anyone did anything
15 Q. Now, it was established during the cross that this meeting was in
16 late May 1992. Can you tell us by that point in time had there been any
17 incidents involving armed Muslim units in Sanski Most municipality?
18 A. There were. There were incidents.
19 Q. Could you give us an idea of about approximately how many
20 incidents are we talking about? A few, a lot, one?
21 A. A few, a few. The first soldier who was killed in Sanski Most
22 was at the silo. It was a Polish man, a young man. I don't know his
23 name. That was during the disarming. Then two policemen in the village
24 of Trnovo were disarmed. That is the second incident that I know of. So
25 it was sporadic.
1 Q. Okay. Now, if we could turn to page 18 in the diary.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that --
3 MR. IVETIC: Go ahead.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at bullet point 3. It says "Seize all
5 weapons" by hook or by crook that doesn't seem to be consistent with the
6 bullet point you are talking --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. All illegal weapons. That's
8 what's written here. All illegal ones.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we have illegal in the B/C/S? Because the
10 translation doesn't have. Can we be helped?
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm told that the B/C/S has
12 "illegal" [Interpretation] "All illegal weapons should be taken away."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Let's -- you may proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then --
16 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps we should ask for CLSS to redo that page of
17 the diary once it's finally tendered.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it -- yes, if it would be tendered. And I
19 think it would be appropriate that the Prosecution ask for it, it being
20 tendered by the Prosecution.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 If we could turn to page 18.
24 Q. Now, you were asked if these persons who were being brought in,
25 Adil Draganovic, Mirzet Karabeg, et cetera, if they were leading
1 non-Serbs in Sanski Most and you said they were. Now, I want to ask you
2 were all of the persons listed here leading members of the SDA political
4 A. Mostly, yes.
5 Q. And, again, by this time, late May 1992, was it already known in
6 Sanski Most that the SDA was arming Muslims in Sanski Most?
7 A. It was known.
8 Q. I would --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the question was very leading. But
10 apart from that, it asked for a kind of a general knowledge.
11 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, it can't be leading if the
12 statement already has information about he acknowledged that was done.
13 And my last question is: Was that known at this time of this meeting.
14 It's in the statement of the witness that they had knowledge that the SDA
15 was arming --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. IVETIC: -- people, and he says so in the book. So it's a
18 follow-up of that to find out whether at this point in time that was
19 already known.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps -- but that's another aspect of
21 the question. We would like to know what exactly then was known and,
22 rather, facts than a general impression.
23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you could further explore that, Mr. Ivetic. That
25 certainly would assist the Chamber.
1 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honour.
2 Q. Doctor, you've heard the Judges. Could you tell us at this point
3 in time - that is, late May, the 25th of May, 1992 - what was known about
4 the arming of the Bosnian Muslims in Sanski Most by the SDA?
5 A. Green Berets were formed and the Patriotic League. There were
6 units in town. There were 300 armed persons in Vrhpolje. That's like 50
7 per cent of the 6th Sana Brigade when it arrived in the territory of the
8 Sanski Most. That is what is written in the book, "It is a Crime to
9 Forget a Crime."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the witness --
11 Witness, that knowledge about arming of Bosnian Muslims, your
12 source is the book?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from the book.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, because your answer finishes by saying:
15 "... that's what is written in the book."
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 300 armed persons in Vrhpolje.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there were units in town. Your answer
18 consists of three or four elements. The first is Green Berets were
19 formed and the Patriotic League. What do you know about that and what is
20 your source?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Green Berets established armed
22 groups in the centre of town, and they turned them into units. And in
23 the neighbourhoods where they were, they were in control. One was not
24 allowed to walk around there at night, or, if so, it was risky. They did
25 not appear in day-time, but during the night they would patrol different
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how did you learn about that? What was
3 your personal observation? What did you learn from other sources?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I learned that from people.
5 Nobody dared move about at night in the neighbourhoods where they were
6 armed at night because the patrols that were in those neighbourhoods
7 could be seen. They didn't really make an effort to hide.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You learned that from persons "who I personally
9 observed," that they were not allowed at night to move there.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were people. Not 100
11 per cent but, say, 95 per cent Muslim population. And also there were
12 Serb houses. They were saying what was happening.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I take this second part of your answer -- one
14 second, please.
15 The second part was there were units in town. You have explained
16 that. There were 300 armed persons in Vrhpolje. How did you learn that?
17 Is that what you took from the book or ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that there were armed people
19 up there, but I didn't know the exact number. I found out what the
20 figure was from the book, but I did know that there were armed people
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That clarifies your knowledge.
23 Now, what do you know? Because that was -- the question, what do
24 you know about the arming itself? How did they get the arms, from whom
25 did they get it, how did they get it, how many arms they had?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, everybody was
2 getting armed. Who got weapons from where, that was hard to establish.
3 But there were way too many weapons before the war started, and who got
4 weapons in which way, that is something I don't know. At any rate,
5 weapons did turn up in town.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Then, Mr. Ivetic, you may continue. I'm just looking at your
8 response to my observation, that you are putting a leading question. I
9 leave it to that, because in the statement the witness didn't say that
10 there was arming. He said that he heard something of the kind.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Sir, in your answers now you've talked about the centre of town
14 and neighbourhoods where people could not go during the evening hours
15 because of the presence of these armed Green Berets. Could you be more
16 specific. Does that part of town have a name; and, if so, what is it?
17 A. Mainly it was Mahala, Otoka, Muhici, that part of town.
18 Q. Okay. I'd like to look at P3294 with you.
19 MR. IVETIC: Page 57 in the English and page 40 in the Serb.
20 Q. While we wait for the document, I can let you know that this is
21 Mr. Rasula's diary again.
22 MR. IVETIC: And if we could perhaps zoom in on the right-hand
23 side of the Serbian.
24 Q. That can make it easier for you to read it. And this is again
25 the same meeting from the 25th of May, 1992 that we just looked at in
1 your diary. And if we look at item number 4 down near at the bottom of
2 the page in both versions, we see a reference to Adil Draganovic, that he
3 is to be taken into custody. And next to that in parentheses, it says:
4 "In Mahala, 30 pieces were returned that he failed to turn in."
5 And now the pieces is referred to in B/C/S as "cijevi", I want to
6 ask you what is your understanding of what is being referenced here,
7 these 30 pieces or "cijevi" that were surrendered, that he -
8 Mr. Draganovic - failed to turn in.
9 A. What is meant are long-barreled weapons, rifles, PAPs, APs, I
10 don't know what they meant. But anyway, it's long-barreled rifles.
11 Q. Now, if we turn to the next page in both versions of Rasula's
12 diary, it's at the top in the Serbian.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we could focus on the left-hand side of the page.
14 And in the English, it's just below the notation that says Djuro N.
16 Q. And there is reference to a "Fedjad Karabeg owns a machine-gun,
17 and his father a rifle. Goes to Pobrijezje to attend meetings."
18 Now, do you know if there is any relation between Mr. Fedjad
19 Karabeg mentioned here and Mr. Mirzat Karabeg, who was one of the persons
20 on the previous page, to be brought into custody?
21 A. I don't know who Fedjad Karabeg is. But there is just one
22 Karabeg family in Sanski Most.
23 Q. Okay. And now Pobrijezje. We've talked about that. The
24 Prosecutor asked you a few questions about Pobrijezje, where it is in
25 relation to Sanski Most. I want to ask you what was your understanding
1 at this time of what types of meetings were taking place in Pobrijezje as
2 referenced in this entry?
3 A. Well, probably they were meetings of the SDA, of their members.
4 And most probably arming was discussed as well, in my assessment.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, your question asks for an opinion. Do
6 you want to know what his understanding was or do you want to know what
7 those meetings were about?
8 MR. IVETIC: His understanding.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think you've answered the question, what you
12 thought these meetings were about. Could you tell us on what your
13 opinions, because they are opinions, apparently, are based?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, if it's isolated, that
15 meetings are held in Pobrijezje, outside town, and SDA members are
16 present, it is logical that one can assume what it was that was
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Next question please, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
21 Now, if we can go to --
22 Q. No, before we go there, I'll ask a general question. You were
23 asked by Mr. Jeremy yesterday if those who had weapons were killed --
24 MR. IVETIC: That was at temporary transcript page 80, lines 11
25 through 13.
1 Q. Do you have knowledge of any Muslim combatants who laid down
2 their arms and what happened to them, for instance, in Golaja?
3 A. In Golaja, people were taken prisoner, those who were, and then
4 exchange of prisoners took place. There were also prisoners from the
5 Serb army, and there was this bus of extremists from Vrhpolje, Golaja,
6 that was sent to Bihac, and Serb fighters were freed. That was the
7 exchange. Major Veljko Brajic was in charge of that.
8 Q. And now if we could return to your diary.
9 MR. IVETIC: Number 19777, and if we can have page 23 of the
10 same. And it is the fourth item -- fourth line from the top, I should
12 Q. "- Military age men, exchange, one-for-one."
13 First of all, what is this referring to -- who was the other
14 party or other side to this exchange -- to these types of -- to this --
15 to the exchange that is referenced here?
16 A. I didn't understand what you said. Could you please repeat that?
17 Q. It says here:
18 "- Military age men, exchange, one-for-one."
19 With whom were they to be exchanged?
20 A. Well, probably for Serb fighters. One-to-one.
21 Q. And --
22 MR. JEREMY: I'm sorry to interrupt you --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
24 MR. JEREMY: -- Mr. Ivetic. I wonder if it makes sense to get a
25 date for this exchange in Golaja. It might just make the witness's
1 evidence a little bit clearer.
2 MR. IVETIC: I agree.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's a suggestion, Mr. Ivetic, which you may follow
5 MR. IVETIC: I will.
6 Q. Doctor, you've heard the suggestion. Could you give us a
7 time-frame for the exchange that you referenced in Golaja that
8 Major Brajic undertook, I guess?
9 A. That was done immediately after the fighting in Vrhpolje, within
10 a day or two. That exchange was certainly carried out.
11 Q. Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you would just -- you earlier
13 referred to a question put by Mr. Jeremy yesterday, that if those who had
14 weapons were killed. I think the question was whether those who had
15 weapons were to be killed, which is not -- the one describes a kind of an
16 instruction; the other describes a factual situation. So if that's -- if
17 you would agree with me, I don't think that it --
18 MR. IVETIC: I do agree with you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Now, if you know how frequent or -- were there more of these
22 exchanges of military-aged men or combatants, one-for-one, with the other
24 A. In the Sana municipality, that was the only exchange, as far as I
25 know. As for other front lines, there were exchanges.
1 Q. Okay. Now, in regard to "asanacija" of the battle-field or
2 sanitisation that you were asked about today, do you know what the
3 prescribed procedure for burial of human remains of enemy combatants was
4 pursuant to the relevant rules of "asanacija"?
5 A. "Asanacija" involves the collection of dead bodies, counting
6 them. There were joint burials after that. Then the removal of dead
7 livestock, and then disinfection and deratization.
8 Q. And, sir, what is the proper purpose behind "asanacija" or
9 sanitisation of the terrain?
10 A. Well, preventing the spread of diseases, infections.
11 Q. And what effect does timing have on the spread of diseases from
12 deceased human corpses left in the open?
13 A. That has to be done pretty quickly, because the more one puts it
14 off, the more likely it becomes for infection to spread, as well as an
16 Q. Now, in response to some questions earlier today, you mentioned
17 military medical uniforms. Can you please describe for us the colour or
18 appearance of those medical military uniforms?
19 A. Military medical uniform meant that it was compulsory to wear a
20 red cross in order for there to be a distinction from other soldiers,
21 ordinary soldiers. So it had to be visibly marked.
22 Q. And what colour were those uniforms?
23 A. Well, it depended. Olive-green-grey to light blue ones, light
24 blue ones.
25 Q. And you were asked about the convoy that went to Manjaca where
1 some individuals suffocated and --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic?
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you would not mind, apparently you
5 are moving to a different subject.
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You are moving away from the uniforms.
8 That red cross, where was that? Was that an epaulette or was
9 that on the upper arm or -- could you tell us a bit more in detail where
10 that red cross would appear on the uniform itself?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part - for the most
12 part - it was on the arm above the elbow, although there were uniforms
13 where it was in front so that it would be visible. And even on the back.
14 But usually it was on the upper arm. And visibly so; it was quite big.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you say "quite big," could you give
16 us an indication of the size of such red cross insignia?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say 20 by 20
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication with your hands,
20 approximately, how it is, so that we could --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it attached to the uniform itself or was
23 it a kind of a band around the arm?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were both. There were those
25 that were sewn on. And also when we needed more, they would be put on
1 the sleeve as a separate band.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you say the ones sewed on, they were 20 by
3 20 centimetres?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, approximately.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Now, sir, you were asked about the convoy of persons from
9 Betonirka to Manjaca where some individuals suffocated, and you
10 identified a doctor from the health centre that told you that the
11 civilian health centre was in charge of the convoy.
12 The question I want to ask you is: Would it be -- or have you
13 ever heard of there being an instance where a convoy would have joint
14 military and civilian medical escort?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, just a few more points.
17 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to 19777, again. And it was, I
18 believe, page 46 in both versions. This doesn't appear to be the --
19 Could we try page 44. I apologise. It was the part where there
20 was talk of the -- ah, it's -- are we in 19777? It is page 46 then. But
21 I think that the -- the English is a different book.
22 Q. Sir, you were shown this page by Mr. Jeremy in bullet point
23 number 1. And I want to ask you what is -- if you could tell us what is
24 the meaning of the reference here to "5-6 tonnes of explosives seized
25 in," and then in the English it says "one word illegible." Could you
1 give us some more information on that by looking at the Serbian original?
2 What is being talked about here?
3 A. Am I supposed to look at the transcript in front of me?
4 Q. Not the transcript, sir. Your diary. The entry on the diary
5 under number 1 where it says:
6 "- 5-6 tonnes of explosives seized in ..."
7 And then the next word is illegible for the translators, and I'm
8 wondering if you can read your own handwriting?
9 A. It says Demisevci. Demisevci. And then it says "explosive Vitez
10 Gorazde." That means that the explosive is from Vitez, I suppose, or
12 Q. Do you recall perhaps what this might refer to?
13 A. I don't know who provided that information and whether it was 5
14 to 6 tonnes or not. This is the information that arrived, and I know
15 nothing more about it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm somewhat lost by the illegible word,
17 what it --
18 MR. IVETIC: It's a place name.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- it is.
20 MR. IVETIC: It's a place name, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's a place name.
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. IVETIC: Sorry, I should have mentioned that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me now.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is that the correct name that's written on the
2 transcript, Damesevci.
3 MR. IVETIC: Damesevci.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Demisevci.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that was the information given. Are you
6 familiar with this geographical name?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Demisevci is a village near
8 Sanski Most. Demisevci.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
10 Well, at least it's very good to have a doctor who can read his
11 own handwriting. That's very exceptional and I'm happy that -- thank you
12 so much.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And, Your Honour, if I can assist
15 further, it's D-e, everything else is correct in the transcript except
16 that it's "D-e" at the beginning, and that should hopefully correct
18 Q. Now, on this page in item number 2, there is information on
19 "captured Black Shirts." What are we to understand this reference to
20 mean, these black shirts?
21 A. Believe me, I don't know what black shirts means. I can't
23 Q. Okay. My last question then is in relation to page 48 and an
24 item that was shown to you during cross-examination. At least I thought
25 it was -- I'm sorry, page 49 in the ...
1 And under item number 1, it says:
2 "Appoint a person for the deportation of the part of population."
3 What was your understanding of what "part of the population" is
4 being referenced here?
5 A. It was not the complete population but a certain number of people
6 who were supposed to move out. That's the meaning of this phrase, "the
8 Q. And did you have any further understanding of how that part would
9 be comprised? Who would comprise that part?
10 A. Probably it was the extreme part or the extremists.
11 Q. Okay. Doctor, again I thank you on behalf of General Mladic and
12 my team.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my redirect subject to,
14 of course, discussing with plaintiff's counsel what we need to tender
15 from the diary. I don't have an objection. We just need to figure out
16 what pages would go in. And, of course, the one translation issue.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would agree on that, then -- we'll hear
18 from you.
19 Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Jeremy to put some further
20 questions to you, I would like to briefly revisit a matter which was
21 addressed by both the Defence and the Prosecution and it is about the
22 meeting that took place on the 25th of May and which you are referring to
23 in your diary.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ORIE: And I read again the line you were questioned about.
1 It reads:
2 "In Mahala, 30 pieces were returned that he failed to turn in,
3 and that apparently refers to Adil Draganovic."
4 Now, you've explained to us what you understood the 30 pieces to
5 be. It says "they were returned." Do you know who returned them to
7 A. You are talking about weapons? If it says 30 pieces, a reference
8 is made to 30 pieces of rifles. Draganovic had collected them, but he
9 did not turn them in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then the line reads: "In Mahala, 30
11 pieces were returned that Draganovic failed to turn in."
12 Now, Draganovic apparently did not turn them in. And now it says
13 they were returned. But returned by whom to whom?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand to whom. If
15 weapons were collected, they should have been handed in at the premises
16 of the Territorial Defence. If the population had unlicensed weapons and
17 if those were collected, they were to be handed over to the
18 Territorial Defence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see that. And apparently Draganovic failed
20 to do that. That's at least how I understand it. And now the line
22 "30 pieces were returned that he failed to turn in."
23 Which suggests that the weapons then finally, well, were
24 returned. But my question is: By whom were they returned to whom?
25 A. I suppose that Adil collected the weapons that people voluntarily
1 surrendered. He collected 30 pieces but failed to hand them over where
2 he was supposed to hand them over. And people did return weapons, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's still not entirely clear to me.
4 Last question. You explained what you understood to be the 30
5 pieces. On what basis did you say these were long-barreled rifles? Have
6 you seen them? Have you -- what do you know about it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see them. But everything
8 evokes long-barreled rifles.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is it --
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, is --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- a linguistic matter, Mr. Ivetic --
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- then we'd like to -- apparently "pieces" gets a
14 very special meaning, and if --
15 MR. IVETIC: It's not "pieces" in B/C/S. It's "cijevi," which is
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IVETIC: Which means barrels.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That means barrels?
20 MR. IVETIC: Correct. It's P3294, page 57, for Your Honours if
21 you want to pull it up, and we can ask for that to be addressed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer, because you were rather specific in
23 what type of weapons those were, you take that from the reference in your
24 own notebook or do you have any additional knowledge?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just assume. I assume.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For example, a hunting rifle has a long barrel
2 as well. On the basis of what you read here, could you exclude this to
3 include hunting rifles?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't claim that the 30 pieces
5 did not include those as well. Probably not many, but an occasional
6 hunting rifle is by no means excluded from that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So what you can tell us that on the basis of the
8 text you've written, that you'd take it that these were weapons with long
9 barrels, such as rifles, but that you do not have any further specific
10 knowledge about those weapons?
11 Is that how we have to understand your testimony?
12 A. Precisely.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic [sic], before you sat down, you referred
15 to an exhibit P number.
16 MR. IVETIC: It's okay. We understand each other, Your Honours.
17 Yes, Your Honour, I did see that the transcript did not have
18 the --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
20 MR. IVETIC: -- exhibit number. It's P3294 and the relevant page
21 is page 57 in the English and page 40 in the Serbian.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That being clarified.
23 Mr. Jeremy, any further questions for the witness?
24 MR. JEREMY: Very briefly, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. JEREMY: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P2889 on the screens.
4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
5 Q. And, sir, I would like to just ask you a brief question in
6 relation to your evidence in relation to the disarming process which
7 you've discussed with Mr. Ivetic just now.
8 Now on our screens is a -- it's a report on the process of the
9 disarming paramilitary formations in Sanski Most public security area.
10 MR. JEREMY: If we can zoom in on the first two paragraphs,
11 please. I realise it's not that clear. The document is dated the 15th
12 of June, 1992.
13 Q. Now focusing on just the second --
14 MR. JEREMY: And, sorry, if we go to the second page in each
15 document, please.
16 Q. We will see that it's -- this document is signed by SJB chief
17 Mirko Vrucinic. Mr. Davidovic, you knew Mirko Vrucinic; correct?
18 A. He was my high school teacher.
19 MR. JEREMY: Okay. If we go to the first page again, please, in
20 each language. I'd like to focus on the second paragraph.
21 Q. So, sir, directing your attention to the second paragraph, we
23 "The action of peaceful disarming and surrendering of weapons was
24 carried out in the period between 10 May and 25 May 1992. During that
25 period, the Muslim and Croatian population handed over only hunting
1 weapons and other legally owned weapons, but illegally obtained military
2 weapons were not surrendered, and were concealed (buried) on the
3 instructions from above."
4 So, sir, I just want to clarify your position in respect to this
5 particular paragraph in this document. Is it your position that it
6 wasn't necessary for Muslim and Croats to hand in their legally owned
7 weapons in Sanski Most but that they, nevertheless, did that voluntarily?
8 Is that your position?
9 A. I'm not claiming that that happened, but I'm sure that there were
10 people who did it voluntarily.
11 MR. JEREMY: And if we go to the next page of this document.
12 Q. We see the numbers of weapons that were handed in, which gives us
13 an idea of the number of people who you believe voluntarily handed these
14 weapons back. So just as one example, 195 hunting rifles.
15 Sir, I think you've answered my question. I've got no further
17 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Since the Bench has no further questions for you either,
20 Mr. Davidovic, this concludes your testimony. We would like to thank you
21 very much for coming a long way to The Hague, for demonstrating that
22 doctors can read their own handwriting, for having answered all the
23 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
24 wish you a safe return home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to briefly turn into private session before
4 we take a break. And we'll then expect the next witness to appear after
5 the break.
6 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 We take a break and will resume at ten minutes past midday.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
25 MR. LUKIC: No protective measures for this witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness be can be escorted into the courtroom.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I just spoke with him and he never requested
3 protective measures. Probably we filed something. I was informed by
4 Mr. Ivetic that at one point of time we were not certain who would be
5 protected and who would not be protected, so that's why only because --
6 to be cautious enough, we filed something.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the filing of the 3rd of November,
8 Defence motion pursuant to Rule 92 ter, to admit the written testimony of
9 Slavko Puhalic, which was filed confidentially, that the status can now
10 be changed to public.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you were on your feet.
13 MR. TIEGER: I was going to respond to the inquiry the Chamber
14 made in private session. I think I can do so without actually requiring
15 us to go back into private session. And I would say simply that while
16 the submissions were a little vague, nevertheless, under the
17 circumstances, we do not object.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: And allows us to proceed.
21 Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI: Just to use the very brief remaining moment.
23 The witness was advised of his rights under Rule 90(E) in the
24 Karadzic case. In view of the questions I intend to put, I'd request
25 that the same advice be given.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I leave it in the hands of the Defence
2 whether they want this to be -- whether this advice would be given to the
3 witness right from the beginning. I don't know what questions you
4 further have on your mind.
5 MR. LUKIC: We do not deem it necessary to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll do it at the beginning of
8 Witness, Mr. Puhalic, before you give evidence, the Rules require
9 that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole
10 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is handed out to you now.
11 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: SLAVKO PUHALIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Puhalic.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, having consulted my colleagues, we think
19 that it may be better to give the 90(E) warning right away so that it's
20 valid for the whole of his testimony. I mean, it's valid anyhow.
21 Witness, before you'll be examined by Mr. Lukic, I would like to
22 draw your attention to one of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. It is
23 Rule 90(E), and I'll read it to you.
24 "A witness," that's you, in this case.
25 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
1 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
2 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
3 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
4 offence other than false testimony."
5 This means that if you fear that a truthful answer might
6 incriminate yourself, do not hesitate to address me and ask whether you
7 can be relieved from the duty to answer that question.
8 If that is clear to you, we'll proceed, and you'll first be
9 examined by Mr. Lukic. You find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is
10 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Puhalic, good afternoon.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Could you please give us your name for the record. Do it slowly,
18 A. Slavko Puhalic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens 1D1631, please. And if
20 the statement could be given in hard copy to Mr. Puhalic.
21 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, Your Honours. I hesitate to intervene at
22 this moment, but the last list we got --
23 MR. LUKIC: It's a, sorry. You're right.
24 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Lukic, as often, has sensed my interest before I
25 even got there.
1 MR. LUKIC: We redacted one paragraph, so it's better to have
3 JUDGE ORIE: A.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have that on our screen, I take it. And
6 that's also the version of the statement that is now given to
7 Mr. Puhalic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Puhalic, let us just establish whether you
13 gave a statement to General Mladic's Defence team.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this is not the wrong statement. We must look
16 at that.
17 MR. LUKIC: We'll come to that, Your Honour. The only difference
18 is in paragraph 24 and 21, actually. It is caused by technical staff.
19 Actually, Mr. Puhalic did not change anything. It's only caused by our
20 capability to find exact video from Karadzic trial.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. The only thing is what is on our
22 screen and what the witness will attest to, that that's his evidence.
23 And we do understand now that some redactions were made.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I see paragraph 24, indeed, is blackened out, half.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes. And paragraph 21 should be corrected, Your
2 Honours. It reads that video-clip is marked with 1D2914, and we intend
3 to use P200.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: Which is the same only different cuts from the
6 same --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Different --
9 JUDGE ORIE: That does not appear therefore yet and that is
10 something that should be --
11 MR. LUKIC: Should be corrected --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- corrected with the witness.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But he does not know this numbering. He knows
14 only about the video.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. And, Mr. Lukic, you have shown him --
16 MR. LUKIC: I showed him P200.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P200. Yes. Then we take that -- unless there is
18 any challenge to that, we take that as a clear statement by counsel, and
19 it really doesn't make much sense to ask the witness about it because he
20 may not be involved in administrative matters of this Tribunal.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And also paragraph 24, in
23 the original version, it is -- it talks about a diagram, and it's in our
24 information report from the 11th of February, 2015.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: In the first part, it talks about diagram that was
2 found on the first version, Karadzic version. Since we couldn't locate
3 that diagram on this video, P200, we had to redact the first part of
4 paragraph 24.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could I just ask you for one second,
6 Mr. Lukic. The witness gave his testimony in Karadzic when exactly?
7 Because it comes as a surprise that on the 3rd of November, 2014, which
8 likely is after he has given his evidence in the Karadzic case, that you
9 still produce a document referring to diagrams where you say they are not
10 there, and that the witness signs such statements. That is still of some
11 concern -- oh, I see it's the 14th of November -- yeah, 2013. That's one
12 year after it has happened.
13 MR. TRALDI: If --
14 JUDGE ORIE: So -- yes, Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: If I might assist, Mr. President, I apologise; and,
16 Mr. Lukic, I'd invite to correct me if I'd misunderstood.
17 I had thought and was proceeding on the basis that what he was
18 saying was the diagram in question is not in the very similar clip that
19 they are using and showed the witness but that -- but not to be saying
20 that it wasn't in the clip that was used in the Karadzic trial, and I
21 might have responded somewhat differently if I had understood him the way
22 Your Honour did. And so I'd just ask that it be clarified.
23 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. At that moment, we had video with the
24 diagram, but lately we were not able to locate that video. So we had to
25 switch to P video. Exactly -- immediately before -- after the witness
1 came here to The Hague, we couldn't locate that video, I couldn't show
2 him that video, and I had to use P number, P200. And that's why I had
3 to -- because he couldn't attest -- we couldn't show it. But at the
4 moment when he was talking to me in Prijedor, we were able -- we had that
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we --
7 MR. LUKIC: We --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my concern is now slightly different,
9 that is, that what you were able to show him in November 2014, you are
10 not able to find anymore in early February 2015.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That is a different concern but still a concern.
13 Please let's proceed and not spend too much time on it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you tell us exactly what needs to be
15 redacted on paragraph 24, Mr. Lukic?
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. From paragraph 24, first --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can have the relevant page of the
18 statement on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you have it on the screen, it becomes immediately
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 5.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It's already redacted.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Puhalic, you remember that we could not find that diagram as
2 we were watching this video a few days ago. And with your consent, I
3 redacted this paragraph that speaks about that video.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. However, in the rest of the paragraph, it is the same people and
6 journalists that are referred to, the same as in those in the video where
7 we could see them; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Although these corrections are of a technical nature, we had to
10 have them made. To the best of your knowledge, what is written down,
11 what we wrote down in your statement and what you signed, was it an
12 accurate reflection of what you said to us?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The content to this statement, to the best of your knowledge, is
15 it truthful?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
18 answer the same way?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: After these corrections, Your Honour, and with this
21 redaction of paragraph 24, we would tender this statement by the number
22 1D1631a into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01631a receives Exhibit number D898,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. LUKIC: I will just read statement summary of Mr. Puhalic,
3 and I will have several questions for him, with your leave, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
6 After the establishment of the Trnopolje collection centre,
7 Slobodan Kuruzovic asked Mr. Puhalic to help him at the beginning of the
8 establishment of that collection centre. At the beginning, he acted as a
9 driver to Mr. Kuruzovic, but mostly he was in charge of procuring the
10 food for the Trnopolje collection centre.
11 Mr. Puhalic will explain that the primary purpose of the
12 Trnopolje collection centre was to remove non-Serb civilians from the
13 combat zone, keep them there for a while, first and foremost for their
14 personal safety, especially at night.
15 Non-Serbs were allowed to leave the Trnopolje collection centre,
16 and they could freely go out after reporting to the guard and leaving a
17 personal document.
18 The capacity of the collection centre was limited. People slept
19 at the school and in the cultural centre, in cars, tractor trailers, and
20 so on.
21 There was a kitchen that could cook a limited number of meals.
22 That food was distributed to the most destitute. Some people cooked food
24 In the collection centre, medical assistance was provided in an
25 infirmary where there were one or two physicians and also two or three
1 nurses. There was also a Muslim doctor. There were no infectious
2 diseases in the collection centre.
3 The whole area where people were staying was open. Only the part
4 where there was the school and the cultural centre, by the entrance to
5 the complex, was surrounded by metal fence which was put up to 1 metre
7 There were people of all ages and genders at Trnopolje. Nobody
8 was brought to Trnopolje forcibly. Trnopolje was not fully surrounded by
9 TO members. There were neither machine-gun nests nor firing positions
10 with their barrels pointed at the collection centre.
11 And that was the short summary statement, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And just to avoid any confusion, whenever you talked
13 about the collection centres, you were always referring to Trnopolje and
14 not at any moment to Trnovo as it appears sometimes in the transcript.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 I would just kindly ask the assistance of Ms. Stewart, so ... one
19 second, please.
20 If we can see from video P200 one cut from 2 minutes, 27 seconds,
21 to 3 minutes, 25 seconds. No, no, no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Since it is in evidence already, there is no need to
23 play it twice, I take it.
24 MR. LUKIC: No, there is no need.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Please, Ms. Stewart, if you can help us.
3 Yes, can we start? Thanks.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Fulfilling their promise to show us the second camp, Trnopolje,
6 where 2.000 refugees are living. We were not prepared for what we saw
7 and heard there."
8 MR. LUKIC: Can we stop here, please.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Puhalic --
10 MR. LUKIC: If we can just move a bit further so we can see wider
11 picture, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Several hundred said that they'd arrived to Omarska that
14 morning" --
15 MR. LUKIC: And if we can stop.
16 Q. [Interpretation] So where are the journalists, in which area on
17 this footage; can you recognise that?
18 A. The journalists are in a facility. It was a shop, actually.
19 Now, was it machinery or some tools, things like that? And there was a
20 barbed wire around it. So there was some kind of netting around it and
21 barbed wire on top. So journalists were within that facility, and it is
22 from there that they filmed the people who were in the camp. So it is
23 the journalists who are in this fenced-off area and the people are free
24 in that area towards the school and so on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, everything is already found in
1 paragraph 23 of the statement, isn't it?
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, sorry for disturbing the proceeding,
3 but if General Mladic could be taken out for a moment, then we can
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If your client agrees that we'll proceed
6 meanwhile, then --
7 MR. LUKIC: I was informed by my colleague, Stojanovic, that he
8 agreed that we can proceed.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then security is requested to escort
10 Mr. Mladic out of the courtroom, and we hope to see him back as soon as
12 [The accused withdrew]
13 JUDGE ORIE: And I leave it to you, Mr. Lukic, whether you want
14 to give any further explanation or not. It's entirely in your hands.
15 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that there is a necessity for it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, Your Honours.
18 Can we play further, please.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "... detention camp, released this refugee centre after days,
21 sometimes months of interrogation. We asked if the allegations of
22 beating in the detention centres were true.
23 "I'm not sure that I'm allowed about that. You know, I'm -- can
24 you understand me?
25 "Tell us the truth."
1 MR. LUKIC: We can stop here. That's -- actually, we stop here.
2 We just need to see this man in a worker's outfit, and we'll see him on
3 the next video that we want to show. That's --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, we stopped at 3 --
5 MR. LUKIC: 3:27 --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- 27.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. And if we can --
8 JUDGE ORIE: In more detail, 3:26:03. It can make a difference.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: And can we see 1D3160, please. It's a minute and a
11 half, the whole video.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. LUKIC: And yes, please. You can play it.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we stop, please.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Puhalic --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We stopped at 16 and 2 seconds.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] The part that was shown before on this one now,
20 can you recognise that?
21 A. It's within that shop. I don't know what this is. On the
22 left-hand side, is it an electricity thing or something? I don't know.
23 This is some prefabricated building or something, probably where these
24 shops were.
25 MR. LUKIC: Can we continue?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us -- could you give us information
4 about the time when this was recorded so that we are able to better
5 understand what we are looking at?
6 MR. LUKIC: It will be clearer at the end of this --
7 JUDGE ORIE: At the end.
8 MR. LUKIC: -- of this -- but it's recorded at the same time as
9 the previous one.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, of course, we would have to know exactly
11 when the previous one was recorded. But I think that's in evidence. We
12 have the visit of the journalist is -- I think that there is not much
13 dispute about when that happened.
14 MR. TRALDI: My recollection is the evidence reflects the 5th of
15 August, 1992.
16 MR. LUKIC: That's --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No disagreement about that, apparently.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Can we proceed, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we stop, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Do you see people in uniform, here?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is at 24 seconds, .1.
1 MR. LUKIC: .1. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. We will always
2 miss German precision, I guess.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's UN precision, to be very correct.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Puhalic, this man in uniform, what does he
6 have on his shoulder?
7 A. He has a rifle. I think. May I -- may I just look at the rifle
8 and try to recognise it. I cannot say whether it is a PM or an AP; that
9 is to say, whether it's an automatic rifle or a machine-gun.
10 Q. We see here that he is not separated from the civilians by any
11 kind of fencing.
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
14 MR. LUKIC: It was just a statement. It was not a leading
16 JUDGE ORIE: If it is in the statement, there is no need to
17 repeat it. If it is not in the statement --
18 MR. LUKIC: It's in the statement.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's leading.
20 MR. LUKIC: But my question should follow after this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you're referring to what paragraph exactly
22 at this moment, that they were not separated? Could you give us the
23 paragraph in which you said it's to be found?
24 MR. LUKIC: I can't find if that actually can be found in the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it cannot be found, it was a leading
2 question. Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] To the best of your knowledge, the soldiers and
5 you, yourself, did you move about with the civilians, amongst the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How much time did you spend with the civilians?
9 A. I? Well, it depended. If the major asked for something or since
10 I was a link between the major and the men, I always had to go if
11 something was requested or needed in all cases. So I was some kind of
12 communication vehicle between them. The major was mostly in the house
13 and sometimes he'd walk about, too.
14 Now, these people who were around the camp, well, they were
15 guarded. How do I put this? I mean this centre. They moved about
16 freely, normally. They talked to people. They would even have a glass
17 of brandy or two, or a glass of juice, et cetera. So how do I put this?
18 There weren't any bad things happening -- well, something would happen
19 but it was peaceful more or less.
20 [The accused entered court]
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we continue.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. LUKIC: Can we stop here too, please. We stopped at 1
25 minute, 1 second, .3. We are learning.
1 Q. Mr. Puhalic, this journalist who is speaking the Serbian
2 language, where is he?
3 A. Also within the compound of that shop. And the civilians are
4 outside the wire; that is, the journalist is within this compound of that
5 shop that was surrounded by this wire.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can we continue, Ms. Stewart, please.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in order to complete the transcript of
10 the proceedings, I put on the record that during the last line,
11 approximately, of one of the previous answers, reading that: "Well,
12 something would happen but it was peaceful more or less," that that was
13 the time when Mr. Mladic returned in the courtroom.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Did you see - perhaps it's obvious but I have to
17 ask you for the record - the Serbian-speaking journalist and the foreign
18 journalists, are they all in this same fenced-off area?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, that was all we had for this witness.
21 Only we would tender this 1D3160 into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apparently you're only interested in the
23 images rather than in any text spoken because you have limited yourself
24 to the location of where the journalists were, and that also explains why
25 we have no transcript in B/C/S or in English and that you do not expect
1 the Chamber to rely on that.
2 MR. LUKIC: Precisely, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: My understanding is -- and before expressing a
5 position, my understanding is this record was published or broadcast on
6 Serb TV Sarajevo and recorded by someone other than the journalists.
7 Does the Defence agree with that position as to the provenance?
8 MR. LUKIC: You said by someone other than the journalists. You
9 mean foreign journalists?
10 MR. TRALDI: Right. Sorry. And not recorded by Marsal Voljami
11 [phoen] or that group of journalists.
12 MR. LUKIC: That is correct. And we do not --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. TRALDI: Also as to being broadcast on Serb TV.
15 MR. LUKIC: Most probably I have never seen it on Serb TV.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Lukic, perhaps I am a bit -- I am trying to
17 digest all of it and -- apart from admission. I think we initially saw
18 what was the shed, more or less, and where the witness said that there
19 may have been a kind of an electrical power, small structure there. And
20 then we moved on and we saw barbed wire again. Is that all on the same
21 day? I mean, we did not know exactly whether that's one sequence -- and
22 on what day it was taken.
23 MR. LUKIC: My understanding is it's taken the same day as these
24 foreign journalists were present. That video contains much more, and I
25 think that other buildings could be seen, and we can disclose the whole
1 video. We just wanted to -- with this witness to narrow it down as much
2 as possible, but we can provide the whole video to Your Honours. And,
3 I'm not sure, I -- I don't know how we -- I think that we have this video
4 from disclosure by the Prosecution, but I have to check that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'd like to know exactly where it comes from.
6 MR. LUKIC: Maybe Mr. Traldi knows more.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What information is available about this video.
8 MR. TRALDI: My understanding, and I admit I haven't gone back to
9 the original video to verify, so I'm relying on the surrogate sheet, is
10 that this is taken from a video that was on our 65 ter list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. TRALDI: Which is, I admit, part of how I was sufficiently
13 familiar with the provenance information.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The reason why I'm asking it is the following:
15 That apparently in part of the video, there is barbed wire to be seen,
16 and the witness testified that the journalists were behind the barbed
17 wire within the perimeter of what he calls a shed or a shop, and at other
18 moments we don't see any of that barbed wire, which may be explained by
19 the pictures taken from already within that section. But if it would be
20 at a certain distance, you come at a point where you would expect to see
21 the barbed wire before you see the shop or the shed. And that's exactly
22 the reason why I want to fully understand when it was taken, from where
23 it was taken, how it was taken. And we don't have to -- the witness
24 can't tell us anything about the recording itself, I take it. Only about
25 what he recognises there and what he -- how he interprets that. That's
1 the issue.
2 Meanwhile, Madam Registrar, could you assign a number. And
3 again, I do understand that the words spoken, that the Defence is not
4 going to rely on that.
5 MR. LUKIC: You are correct, Your Honour.
6 MR. TRALDI: And I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I will have some questions about the
9 two visits. If it's agreeable to Mr. Lukic, I'd ask that it be marked
10 for identification pending cross-examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll mark it for identification.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D03160 receives MFI D899, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: And --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, you have no further questions.
18 MR. LUKIC: I have no further questions.
19 Only I have to respond to Mr. Traldi, when he asked me if I can
20 confirm that it was taken on the 5th of August, 1992, I tried to clarify
21 it with this witness. He does not know whether this one specifically was
22 taken in July or August. He couldn't clarify it. And so I could -- I
23 cannot confirm that either.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: Because there were two visits. He was aware of two
1 visits, but he cannot distinguish specifically for this video when it was
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that Mr. Mladic wants to consult
5 with counsel.
6 Mr. Lukic, if you take a moment, you can do so.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: But not on audible volume.
9 Please proceed -- well, we have now dealt with this matter.
10 You have explained, Mr. Traldi, your position in relation to the
11 time of the video recording.
12 Mr. Puhalic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You
13 find Mr. Traldi to your right, and Mr. Traldi is counsel for the
15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Sir, you testified in the Karadzic case in 2013. Did you tell
21 the truth in that testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you also gave a sworn statement in the Karadzic case. That
24 statement was truthful, too?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I want to ask first about one point in that statement. On page 9
2 of your Karadzic statement --
3 MR. TRALDI: Which has been uploaded as 65 ter 1D02291.
4 Q. -- you state:
5 "I know that mosques and sacral monuments were destroyed in the
6 territory of Prijedor municipality during the war, but I do not know who
7 did that or whether someone ordered it."
8 Now, first, it's correct that you do know that a number of
9 mosques and Catholic churches in Prijedor municipality were destroyed
10 during the war; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, I want to turn back to 1991. You mention in paragraph 2 of
13 your statement that you were mobilised into the 343rd Brigade in November
14 1991. What were your duties in that brigade?
15 A. At the beginning, I was a foot soldier. After that, I started
16 driving an ambulance. Until the end I did it.
17 Q. When you say "after that I started driving an ambulance," when
18 did you start driving an ambulance?
19 A. In the month of December 1991.
20 Q. And when you say "until the end," you mean until you returned
21 from Croatia in April 1992?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you were mobilised into the 343rd Brigade in November 1991
24 because --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, first, were you ever demobilised or released from service?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Then that actually completes my questions about that topic, sir.
4 A. I apologise. I don't know if it was until the very end of April
5 or perhaps it was until mid-March, because I got ill so I was on sick
6 leave for a while as far as I can remember.
7 Q. Two questions in regard of that.
8 First, when you say "the very end of April or perhaps ...
9 mid-March," that refers to the time that you were in Croatia; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you say you were on sick-leave from a military obligation
12 that you continued to have; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, I want to ask briefly a few questions about the video that
15 Mr. Lukic showed this morning.
16 First, were you ever present when journalists visited Trnopolje
18 A. No.
19 Q. So you did not see that video being filmed or the events depicted
20 in it in your evidence?
21 A. I can't remember whether it is this footage or was there another
22 one depicting journalists. Perhaps these or some others. I can't
23 recognise them. But I did talk to the journalists within the perimeter
24 of the refugees camp. I did talk to the journalists. I spent some five
25 or ten minutes in a conversation with them.
1 Q. So a moment ago when you said you were not ever present when
2 journalists visited Trnopolje, you intend to correct that answer and say
3 that on one occasion, in fact, you were present when journalists visited
4 Trnopolje; right?
5 A. Maybe I did not understand your question properly. You're asking
6 me if I was alone, but I wasn't. There was always somebody else --
7 Q. Sir --
8 A. -- another soldier or another person.
9 Q. -- let me try and ask very precisely because it seems we may have
10 an interpretation issue: There was one and only one occasion when you
11 were at Trnopolje camp - physically present, of course, with thousands of
12 other people - and journalists visited the camp; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you are unsure whether that was the occasion depicted in the
15 video we saw this morning; right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the camp
18 now, and I'll move away from that topic for the moment.
19 Now, Trnopolje camp was located in a village also called
20 Trnopolje; right?
21 A. Trnopolje camp, yes. Or a refugee centre.
22 Q. And, sir, the question was the camp was in a village. The name
23 of the village was also Trnopolje; right?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. There was no combat in that village in the summer of 1992, was
2 A. Correct. I am not sure. I think that a lad was killed on the
3 eve of the exodus, before the population fled. I think that one or two
4 lads were killed in Trnopolje. Apart from that, there was no fighting at
5 all. I believe that people of Orthodox faith, that they were actually of
6 Orthodox faith.
7 Q. Now, the people who fled Trnopolje, they were -- who fled the
8 village, they were Muslims; right?
9 A. Are and who arrived in the camp, yes. There were others as well.
10 Ukrainians or perhaps even Croats.
11 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 32030.
12 Q. Now, as it comes up, sir --
13 MR. TRALDI: The Chamber has received evidence, Exhibit P7029 for
14 the record.
15 Q. That in 1991 there were about, 2.667 Muslims in Trnopolje
17 Now what will be coming onto the screen in a moment will be the
18 1993 Prijedor census results. And not all of the data has been
20 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 3 in the B/C/S. Perhaps I
21 mean page 2. I do. Page 2 in the B/C/S.
22 Q. At line 30, we see Trnopolje. And looking in the middle of the
23 page, under the column "Muslims," we see there are two of them in
24 Trnopolje in 1993.
25 It's correct that almost all the Muslims who had lived in
1 Trnopolje village before the war were gone by 1993; right?
2 A. I really can't say that. I can tell you what was going on in
3 Trnopolje while I was there. What happened next, I don't know. I don't
4 know how many people left and who they were.
5 Q. Well, you passed through the village on your way to and from
6 Prijedor town; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you were aware Muslims from the village were coming to
9 Trnopolje camp; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you know that the people in Trnopolje camp didn't stay in
12 Prijedor municipality or go back to their homes. They were sent out of
13 the municipality either to Muslim territory or third countries; right?
14 A. Yes. I don't know exactly. But I know that many Muslims stayed
15 in Trnopolje while I was still there. I don't know how many of them
16 stayed, but they stayed in their homes.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32030 receives Exhibit number P7126.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P7126 is admitted.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. And, sir, I want to turn now to the time you yourself spent in
23 Trnopolje camp.
24 Now, you arrived there at the beginning of Trnopolje's operation;
1 A. Yes, more or less.
2 Q. Now, you don't mention this in your statement --
3 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry for interrupting this late, I couldn't
4 locate the document. If we can be informed. It's in the evidence now,
5 but can we be informed who composed this document? Because we cannot see
7 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to provide provenance information after
8 the break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: There are two questions. I think, first of all, who
10 made the document, whether you can see that on the document itself; and,
11 second, is provenance, is where did you get it from.
12 Mr. Lukic, would it --
13 MR. LUKIC: We would object.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you --
15 MR. LUKIC: If I had this document in front of me in -- in timely
16 matter, I would object --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: -- to admission of the same.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you can revisit the matter and you can --
20 because I do understand, Mr. Traldi, you are done with the document
22 MR. TRALDI: That's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can revisit the matter and express any
24 objections after the break, after you have learned from Mr. Traldi where
25 it comes from and what it exactly is.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Sir, turning back to your time at Trnopolje, you don't mention
4 this in your statement, but you claimed in your Karadzic testimony that
5 you were at Trnopolje from around the time it began operating up until
6 the 11th of June, 1992. You then went for a spa treatment, returned on
7 the 17th of July, 1992, stayed for 10 or 15 days or perhaps until the
8 15th of August, and then you were sent back to your unit. Is that your
9 evidence today?
10 A. Yes, more or less.
11 Q. So when you make statements about conditions in Trnopolje --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, "more or less" is a rather ambiguous
14 MR. TRALDI: Okay.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything Mr. Traldi said which is not
16 accurate which you would now want to change?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I can't remember whether it
18 was on the 15th or the 16th or the 14th. It was a long time ago. I
19 can't remember the exact date when I returned from treatment, but it was
20 about that time. And then up to the month of August, either the 1st or
21 the 2nd of August -- I can't remember.
22 MR. TRALDI: Yes.
23 Q. And it's right --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. And it's right, sir, that in your evidence you were gone from the
2 11th of June until a time in the middle of July; right?
3 A. As far as I know, no. If my memory serves me well --
4 MR. LUKIC: It's the break time, and Mr. Mladic does not feel
5 well again, if he can leave the courtroom as soon as possible.
6 MR. TRALDI: I notice we're close to the break.
7 MR. LUKIC: It's time a break.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for a break anyhow.
9 Well, first of all, Witness, we would take a break and we would
10 like to see you in 20 minutes again. You may follow the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it now happened twice. And, of course,
13 the Chamber always has some concerns. If there is anything you would
14 like to either explain or tell us in private session, you are free to do
15 that, of course, and we'll carefully listen to it. If you think there is
16 no reason, we leave it entirely in your hands.
17 MR. LUKIC: I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: But we just express that if Mr. Mladic is --
19 MR. LUKIC: I'll --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- unable to attend --
21 MR. LUKIC: -- answer Your Honours after the break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear from you after the break.
23 We'll take a break and will resume at 1.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.
25 [The accused not present]
1 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic
3 is or will be transported back to the Detention Unit. Is there anything
4 you would like to add to that information, and if so would you like to do
5 it in an open session or would you like to do it in private session?
6 MR. LUKIC: I would prefer to go to private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 I put on the record that Mr. Mladic returns to the Detention Unit
17 not feeling well. At the same time, Mr. Lukic, his counsel, his lead
18 counsel, has declared in private session that he was instructed that --
19 to tell the Chamber that we should proceed in the absence of Mr. Mladic
20 and that he explicitly gives his consent to proceed in his absence.
21 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 Mr. Traldi, was there anything you -- oh, I thought you might
23 want to raise something?
24 MR. TRALDI: If it's regarding the document we discussed at the
25 end of the last session, I provided information to Mr. Lukic informally
1 over the break and understood him to be reviewing it, which was why I
2 hadn't been addressing it on the record, to give him time to do so.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since we'll most likely not finalise
4 testimony of the witness today, Mr. Lukic, you also have three days to
5 look at it.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Puhalic, we'll continue. And to the extent you
9 would be surprised that Mr. Mladic is not in the courtroom, it is with
10 his consent that we proceed in his absence. Carefully listen to the next
11 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Traldi.
12 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Sir, when we left off, we were trying to nail down your
15 chronology at Trnopolje, and I want to focus on one date. In your
16 Karadzic testimony, you were quite specific that it was the 11th of June
17 when you left Trnopolje to go for the spa treatment; is that right?
18 A. Yes. I believe that's how it was.
19 Q. And you were gone for about a month?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement, you say:
22 "I was not the deputy of Major Kuruzovic, the collection centre
24 Now, you say this because you know survivors of Trnopolje camp
25 have identified you as being Major Kuruzovic's deputy; right?
1 A. Perhaps some of the people did assume that I was his deputy, but
2 I was a foot soldier. I did not have any rank or anything. If anything,
3 I was a logistics man because I was in charge of supplies -- or that's
4 what I did the most, the supplies of food and water and things like that.
5 I was like a link between Kuruzovic and the other men. I was the one who
6 communicated with him the most. That's why I suppose that they assume
7 that I was either his deputy or something of the kind.
8 Q. You said:
9 "I was in charge of supplies ... that's what I did the most."
10 What other tasks did you have in the camp?
11 A. Nothing else.
12 Q. Now you mentioned supplies a moment ago. In your statement, you
13 said you would go to procure food "pursuant to the orders of my superior
15 When you say your superior officer, you meant Major Kuruzovic;
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now you refer in paragraph 21 of your statement to military
19 guards at Trnopolje camp. Those guards were from the 43rd Brigade of the
20 VRS; right?
21 A. I don't know whether they were from the 43rd or the TO. I didn't
22 know where the people were from, but they came from the town. I can't
23 make any assumptions as to who they belonged to.
24 Q. Well, given your communication with Mr. Kuruzovic at the time,
25 I'd like to look at one part of his OTP interview.
1 MR. TRALDI: If we could have 65 ter 31960, page 30.
2 Q. Now, beginning in the middle of the page, he was asked:
3 "What unit within the brigade provided these guards that were
4 given to you to secure the facility?"
5 He answered:
6 "Well, from all the units of the Brigade, and then they would
7 change; one day one unit, the other day the other, and so on."
8 He was asked:
9 "And who did you ask for this additional help, who did you go and
10 speak and then obtain these guards?"
11 He responded:
12 "To the Commander of the Brigade."
13 And he was asked:
14 "Who was that?"
15 And he responded:
17 Now --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, you should explain to the witness why
19 there is no B/C/S version on the screen.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. I apologise, sir. This is Mr. Kuruzovic's interview with the
22 Office of the Prosecutor with -- at -- I'm only aware of an English
23 transcript and that's why I'm reading to you, and I'm sure Mr. Lukic will
24 correct me if I've done it imperfectly.
25 But what I've just read to you, first: The commander of the
1 brigade, Arsic, that's Colonel Arsic, the commander of the
2 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then does this portion of your commander's interview refresh
5 your recollection as to which military unit the guards at Trnopolje camp
6 came from?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, before we go into more detail about the camp, I want to talk
9 about one specific person who was at Trnopolje who you discuss in your
10 statement, Mevludin Sejmenovic.
11 Now, you say you took Sejmenovic to Commander Kuruzovic and then
12 Vojo Kupresanin came and took Sejmenovic to his sister's house. Now the
13 Chamber has heard evidence from both Sejmenovic and Kupresanin. Both of
14 them gave evidence that Kupresanin got Sejmenovic out of Omarska, not out
15 of Trnopolje. That's the truth; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Sejmenovic was transferred from Trnopolje to Omarska via the
18 military police stationed at Keraterm before this happened; right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to how he got from
21 Trnopolje to Omarska?
22 MR. LUKIC: Maybe something -- maybe a translation issue, I don't
23 know. Maybe the gentleman can take off his headphones and I will
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you understand the English language,
1 Mr. Puhalic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't understand it. I don't
3 understand English. But I can explain this, this thing about
4 Mr. Sejmenovic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first -- if you would take off your earphones
6 for a second, please.
7 Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: My colleague, Traldi, as it was recorded, and as I
9 heard, said "police station," and it was translated "military police
10 station," so probably that could cause confusion.
11 MR. TRALDI: Military police was the word I used.
12 MR. LUKIC: You did?
13 MR. TRALDI: Yeah. And Mr. Lukic is quite correct that that word
14 doesn't seem to have made it into the transcript.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. So maybe that could cause some --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But I suggest that Mr. Traldi, again, repeats
17 his question, and then without any ambiguities, we'll hear the evidence
18 of the witness on that question.
19 Could the witness be assisted in putting on his earphones again.
20 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Sir, what I'd asked you was, and I'll break it up. First:
23 Sejmenovic was transferred from Trnopolje to Omarska; right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to how he got from
1 Trnopolje to Omarska?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you involved with transporting him from Trnopolje?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confused. The first question was:
5 "Sejmenovic was transferred from Trnopolje to Omarska; right?"
6 The answer was:
8 And then your next question was:
9 "Do you have any personal knowledge as to how he got from
10 Trnopolje to Omarska?"
11 And then the witness said:
13 Now, on the one hand side, he says he was not. And then -- but
14 then he can tell us how. What's confusing me at least. If you could
15 seek clarification there.
16 MR. TRALDI: That's what I was attempting to do, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You know where I'm confused and what is --
18 MR. TRALDI: I share that, Mr. President, and hopefully we'll all
19 figure it out together.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it to you to do it.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI: Lucky me.
23 Q. Sir, were you involved with transporting Mr. Sejmenovic out of
24 Trnopolje yourself?
25 A. Well, I wasn't involved. But if I may explain, I can say how
1 this happened. Mr. Kuruzovic got some list. How do I put it? A list,
2 including members of the SDA and some military conscripts. And now --
3 well, there were people on this list that were being looked for, and I
4 was supposed to look for that person in the camp, inter alia. Since I
5 knew a few Muslim friends who were with me in Western Slavonia and then
6 who returned there with me and they received threats, even that they'd
7 been killed and they'd kill their families if they don't stay on in
8 Kozarac, so they did not return to Western Slavonia, and that's how I
9 tried to talk to them, whether they knew Mr. Sejmenovic, and they said
10 yes. And they said that he was moving there. Sometimes he would be in
11 the camp, sometimes he would not be there, sometimes he'd be in hiding.
12 So after two or three days - I cannot tell you exactly - one of these men
13 said that Sejmenovic was there in the camp, and I went to the man,
14 perfectly normally, if I can put it that way, and I said, "Are you
15 so-and-so?" He said, "Yes." And I said Mr. Kuruzovic wants to talk to
16 you, and that was that. I drove him to Mr. Kuruzovic. And then for some
17 two or three hours they talked.
18 And then -- now, there were either two or three men. I think the
19 army was looking for them or something. They were present there, too.
20 And then Mr. Kuruzovic said to me that I should drive Mr. Sejmenovic to
21 the police station in Prijedor, which is what I did. I put the four of
22 them in the car and drove them over there. And nobody was mistreated.
23 They had a normal, nice talk. They part nicely. And that's how
24 Mr. Sejmenovic got to the public security station down there. And then
25 probably from there, he was transferred to Omarska.
1 I don't know how and I don't know what happened afterwards. But
2 according to things that Mr. Vojo Kupresanin said, I found out that he
3 was in Omarska and that he got him out of Omarska and took him to
4 Banja Luka, and then I don't know. He ended up at his sister's or
5 something like that.
6 Q. When you were asking your Muslim contacts about Mr. Sejmenovic,
7 did they also tell you that there were prisoners in the camp helping him?
8 A. Well, no, no. I didn't ask that.
9 Q. Okay. I'm going to move to another topic then.
10 Now, in your statement, you deny that the people in Trnopolje
11 were detained there. And you say they came in cars, on tractors. Now,
12 many of them were brought there on buses; right?
13 A. Well, I wasn't there. I cannot say whether I remember somebody
14 arriving on a bus. But, for the most part, in the beginning, people came
15 on foot, in cars, tractors, trucks - how do I put this? - there were
16 quite a few vehicles there.
17 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have 65 ter 17421.
18 Q. Now, this is a record kept by Autotransport Prijedor of transport
19 carried out for the needs of the army, the Crisis Staff, and the police.
20 MR. TRALDI: If we can turn to page 2 in both languages, 20th of
21 July, 1992 at point 7 is what we're looking for.
22 Q. We see nine trips, for instance, between Hambarine and Trnopolje
23 for the needs of the army. That's -- Autotransport, that's a bus
24 company; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what we see here, that reflects nine busloads of people being
2 brought to Trnopolje; right?
3 A. I'm sorry, which article? I mean, what is the date?
4 Q. The 20th of the seventh. It's the third date down. And I'm
5 looking at the bottom point, the seventh one: Hambarine-Trnopolje.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And so that says nine bus trips between Hambarine and Trnopolje
8 by Autotransport; right?
9 A. Probably. I don't know.
10 Q. Now, by the 20th you were back from the spa; right?
11 A. Yes. Roughly. I don't know exactly. Probably, yes.
12 Q. A few lines down, we see on the 23rd, second one, seven or more
13 trips for the needs of the police --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you scroll down, please.
15 MR. TRALDI: It's at the very bottom of the English.
16 Q. Seven or more trips for the needs of the police between Trnopolje
17 and Carakovo. Again, you were --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where can we find the words for "the needs of the
20 MR. TRALDI: The heading of the column, "milicija," is translated
21 as "police."
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. And so what Autotransport's records reflect is that they made
25 seven more trips between Trnopolje and Carakovo -- seven or more, on the
1 23rd, again when you were back from the spa; right?
2 A. That's what's written here.
3 Q. And so I'd put to you, sir, that you couldn't have missed 16
4 busloads of people -- 16 or more busloads of people being brought to
5 Trnopolje shortly after you returned from your spa treatment; right?
6 A. I don't know, maybe. I can't remember a single bus. Not a
7 single bus. I cannot remember being present, either in terms of getting
8 people off the bus or probably -- well, maybe I wasn't there. Maybe I
9 was out of Trnopolje. Maybe I was in Prijedor. I cannot remember.
10 Maybe I was out getting supplied. Maybe I drove a Muslim --
11 Q. Sir --
12 A. -- to Kozarac. Maybe I --
13 Q. -- I think you've gone somewhat beyond the question.
14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender the document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17421 receives Exhibit number P7127,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P7127 is admitted.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Did you drive to Kozarac often during that period?
21 A. Well, I did not. If somebody -- I mean, some of these people who
22 were there. I mean, if I was supposed to drive someone or if people left
23 some food or had dug something in or left some food, sometimes I would
24 drive somebody there and bring them back.
25 Q. And so you saw the houses that were destroyed in Kozarac, the
1 mosques that had been destroyed or damaged by that point in the summer of
2 1992; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Turning back to Trnopolje.
5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32031.
6 Q. Now, this is an aerial image taken after the war, and what we see
7 here is the two roads - one snaking down from the left, one going up the
8 middle - that bordered the camp on two sides; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you see the intersection of those two roads at the bottom of
11 the image?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The Trial Chamber has received evidence that there was a
14 check-point there in 1992. Do you recall what organisation manned that
16 A. I cannot recall.
17 Q. But you recall the check-point; right?
18 A. Well, I think that the check-point was somewhere -- from the
19 direction of Kozarac, I think it's before the school, that there was this
20 check-point there. I mean, people would be stopped so that they could
21 not get through - I mean, not to say Serb people - so that they could not
22 get close to the camp.
23 Q. And there would be --
24 A. There was a barrier there of sorts. Was it a log or something
25 like that ...
1 Q. And there would be guards at the check-point; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if you were going to stop people from getting through, you
4 would need weapons, wouldn't you?
5 A. Well, probably, guards had weapons but -- well, I'm not going to
6 say -- well, that they were -- well, maybe they had these weapons next to
7 them. It wasn't that they were holding them. I don't know. But they
8 probably did have weapons.
9 Q. They must have held them sometimes; right?
10 A. A war is a war. And as people say, weapons probably had to be
12 Q. If you could --
13 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask the usher's assistance.
14 Q. And if you could just mark on the image with KP for check-point
15 where you recall it being.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And you mentioned a school. That's the building immediately
18 across the street; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you circle that and mark it with an S.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And one of these buildings is the Dom at Trnopolje; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you circle that and mark it with a D.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Now, you had a room downstairs in the Dom that you used when you
2 would speak with people detained there; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, we see a lot of open space around these buildings. People
5 held in Trnopolje would sleep in the buildings and lots of them would
6 also sleep in makeshift tents or outside in that open area; right?
7 A. Yes. And in the school, in the Dom, and in tents, trucks, cars,
8 tractors, people tried in different ways.
9 Q. And --
10 A. I mean, I think, even over there in this area where the store
11 was, people would sleep there as well.
12 Q. And they slept outside because, of course, these buildings aren't
13 large enough to house the thousands and thousands of people who passed
14 through Trnopolje camp in the summer of 1992; right?
15 A. Well, that too.
16 Q. And they dug latrines outside because the school and the Dom
17 didn't have sufficient toilets for thousands of people; right?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. Now, you mention a clinic in your statement. Could you circle
20 that and mark it with a K.
21 A. Well, right now, I cannot actually find my way here. I think
22 it's this little building here within the Dom.
23 Q. Now, personnel there included Dr. Idriz Merdzanic and a
24 veterinarian named Azra Blazevic; right?
25 A. I don't know. I think the name is Azra Blazevic.
1 Q. And Dr. Merdzanic; right?
2 A. Probably. I can't remember the name.
3 Q. And Vasif Gutic, a Serb medical student, also helped in the
4 clinic; right?
5 A. Well, I don't know whether that was a medical student, but there
6 was one medical technician or two. I cannot remember exactly now.
7 Q. Now, you mention this in your statement. You know, of course,
8 because you had a room you used in the next building over that this was,
9 in fact, a makeshift clinic that didn't have adequate supplies for
10 thousands of detainees; right?
11 A. Well, I don't know exactly. What was there in the medical field,
12 I really didn't know, wasn't my concern. I think it was Dr. Ivic, who
13 was an ethnic Serb doctor from Prijedor who was in charge. But I did go
14 there if somebody needed something, if they needed some kind of help.
15 So, of course, we would see each other but I don't know exactly what they
17 As regards this medical part, I cannot go into that.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Probably they did not have enough --
20 Q. Now Dr. Ivic was with the Serb Red Cross and based across the
21 street; right?
22 A. Well, I don't know exactly where he was based. I cannot
23 remember. But opposite -- well, I don't know whether the Red Cross was
24 there. Dr. Ivic, was he at Major Kuruzovic's? I cannot remember
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But he was in that area.
3 Q. Now there wasn't very much food in Trnopolje; right?
4 A. Well, there wasn't.
5 Q. And you're aware that detainees were killed in Trnopolje camp;
7 A. Well, was it one or two cases? That's something that I heard.
8 Q. Well, it was a lot more than one or two cases, wasn't it? The
9 Chamber has received evidence that six members just of the Foric family
10 were killed there -- or taken from the camp and killed, I should say.
11 A. Well, I cannot make any claims because I don't remember that.
12 I'm just speaking about what I know.
13 Q. And as far as you know, there were never any investigations into
14 the killings that were committed at Trnopolje; right?
15 A. I think -- well, I don't know. On one occasion I know that
16 Kuruzovic left, and I think there were two men. A soldier took them to
17 get something -- was it food or something? Now, how far away did they go
18 from the house? Somebody came up and then somebody was shot and then the
19 soldier came back and said what happened. And the next day, I took
20 Major Kuruzovic to the police station to have this investigated. And --
21 well, I'm not sure now. Two men, was it? I think Kuruzovic gave --
22 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you --
23 A. -- them IDs, passes, so that they could go with the man --
24 MR. TRALDI: I'll tender this image as marked by the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32031, as marked by the witness,
2 receives Exhibit P7128, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 MR. TRALDI: And could we have 65 ter 32005, page 34. This is
5 a --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you can deal with that in two or three minutes --
7 MR. TRALDI: I can.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You can. Okay. Then we'll proceed before we
9 adjourn for the day.
10 MR. TRALDI: It's his Karadzic testimony. There are portions
11 under seal. This isn't one of them. Perhaps I was overoptimistic.
12 Q. Now, you were asked, beginning at line 18, and again this
13 transcript is only in English so I'll read to you. You were asked:
14 "Neither were any investigations conducted in relation to the
15 killings that occurred in the camp or the beatings that occurred in the
16 camp; that's right, isn't it? To your knowledge there were never any
18 And you said:
19 "Well, as far as I know, no."
20 That's the truth, what you said in your Karadzic testimony, that
21 you don't know of any investigations into the murders committed at
22 Trnopolje; right?
23 A. Well, I've already told you that I know that Mr. Kuruzovic went
24 up there. And now whether something was started after that, I don't
25 know. But I do know that he went there to see what happened.
1 Q. And I appreciate that clarification. Now, you also knew rapes
2 were committed in Trnopolje camp, and you don't know of anyone that was
3 ever prosecuted for any of the rapes that were committed in Trnopolje; do
5 A. Well, I spoke about that in Mr. Karadzic's case, too, that I only
6 found out about one of these rapes. I didn't hear anything about the
7 others. And when I heard about that, Dr. Ivic and Major Kuruzovic were
8 informed, and orders were issued to go there. I went to the military
9 police and to the SUP. Two military policemen went there, three
10 policemen, and I think --
11 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you. You're repeating material that's in
12 your statement. I asked you a very specific question. You don't know if
13 anyone was ever prosecuted for committing rape at Trnopolje; do you?
14 A. No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Traldi, we should be clear. In our
16 language, "prosecution" means to bring someone before a court.
17 You are not aware of that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Now, you still --
21 MR. TRALDI: If I might still have just one minute, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at our interpreters, whether minute is,
23 Mr. Traldi -- okay. You have an okay, Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Now, you still live in Prijedor, sir, so you know that today in
1 front of where of Trnopolje camp was, there is a memorial to fallen VRS
2 soldiers and no memorial to the people you know were killed and raped in
3 Trnopolje; right?
4 A. I don't know.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that is a good point to break for the
6 weekend, I think.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, before you leave the courtroom, I want to
8 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in any other way
9 with whomever it may be about your testimony, testimony you've given
10 already today or testimony still to be given, and we would like to see
11 you back Monday morning at 9.30.
12 You may follow the usher.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, as far as your last question is
15 concerned, what is the relevance and probative value of what you
16 apparently were seeking on whether there are memorials for one group and
17 not for another?
18 MR. TRALDI: I think, in part, the witness resiling from the
19 proposition, reflects on his credibility, among other things. So I'd
20 begin with that point.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not because you consider him to in any
22 way to be responsible for what kind of memorials were erected, yes or no.
23 MR. TRALDI: I certainly hadn't suggested that he was responsible
24 for erecting memorials in Prijedor, Your Honour. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
1 We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the 16th of
2 February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day
5 of February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.