1 Tuesday, 17 February 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was not informed of any preliminary matters to be
12 raised, therefore could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic. Before we continue
15 I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
16 you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the
17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Ms. Edgerton will now
18 continue her cross-examination.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
21 WITNESS: RADOMIR RADINKOVIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Now yesterday we left off talking about the 1400 prisoners who
2 arrived at Manjaca from Omarska, and I want to begin today on the same
3 subject. What happened to those prisoners while they were locked in
4 buses in front of the camp gate was that overnight some of the men, some
5 of the prisoners, in the buses were beaten to death; that's right, isn't
7 A. Well, I and the personnel who were close to them didn't know
8 whether they were killed by beatings or some deliberate execution. The
9 policeman who was the closest to the site informed us that some of them
10 were taken out and liquidated on the spot. That's how it was.
11 Q. So what you're saying is overnight -- my question to you was
12 about overnight while the prisoners were locked in the buses. So you're
13 saying overnight, you're confirming, overnight some prisoners were
14 killed; correct?
15 A. It was already in the morning, at sunrise, it was already
16 daylight. What happened during the night no one was able to see, none of
17 us was able to see. It was happening inside the buses. But by sunrise
18 visibility was greater and we could see that one by one was taken out of
19 the bus and ...
20 Q. Could you hear what was happening inside the buses? You must
21 have been able to hear the screams, couldn't you? You were only
22 150 metres away.
23 A. I could not hear any screams, but the policemen on duty who were
24 close to the gate of the camp were able to hear and they informed us that
25 screams were heard, whether they were inside the bus or outside the bus,
1 I don't know. But that was during the night. What we could see was that
2 after sunrise some of them were taken out.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the witness said that before, he said:
4 "We could see -- but by sunrise visibility was greater and we could see
5 that one by one was taken out of the bus and ..."
6 What did you say after "one by one was taken out of the bus
7 and ..."?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When there was more visibility, the
11 policemen saw them being taken out and literally liquidated.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you change "we could see" and "we saw" in
13 the "policemen"?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our military policemen who were the
15 closest to the gate were able to see that. We were 150 metres further
16 away in an enclosed space, we could not hear it or see it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. So maybe we'll move on a bit until morning time. So what you've
20 been saying, what you've been talking about as well is when the
21 1400 prisoners were unloaded there were detainees unloaded who had been
22 killed overnight, but there were also eight detainees that were brutally
23 beaten to death. That's what you've been describing; right?
24 A. Yes, precisely.
25 Q. And your team, your security team, reported that incident to your
1 command, didn't they?
2 A. Our security team reported that directly to me, and when I heard
3 that such events were unfolding I went to see the camp commander
4 urgently, asking to use the phone to report to our service, asking for
5 reinforcement because our assessment was that it could escalate. So I
6 personally was informed and I took steps to put an end to it.
7 Q. When you say you reported to your service, who did you
8 specifically report to?
9 A. The chief of security of the 1st Krajina Corps.
10 Q. What was his name?
11 A. Stevan Bogojevic.
12 Q. So what you did was you went over and you used the telephone and
13 you called your chief of security. Now, what I want to know is --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not what the witness said. He informed
15 his commander and asked him to contact the person.
16 MS. EDGERTON: He asked his commander to, yes -- pardon me.
17 Q. So you informed -- when you say you went to see the camp
18 commander, that means you went to see Popovic; correct?
19 A. I just said that I had gone to see the camp commander,
20 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, Bozidar I think his name was. I went to see
21 him only to ask to use his phone because we didn't have a telephone, he
22 had one.
23 Q. Okay. So you called -- is it correct that you called
24 Stevan Bogojevic and told him what was going on?
25 A. Yes, I told him what was going on and I immediately suggested
1 steps to be taken, namely, that he should send a platoon of military
3 Q. So --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I please clarify that.
5 Did you call your commander by phone or did you go to see him?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't go to see him, he was in
7 Banja Luka. My superior was in Banja Luka, whereas the camp commander
8 was in the next office. We should make a distinction between these two
9 things. The camp commander was in the office next door, Popovic, and my
10 commander was in Banja Luka.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was mixed up during the last questions.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Understood.
13 Q. Now -- so you've told us steps that you personally took in light
14 of the crime that was unfolding in front of the camp. I want to know
15 what the military and civilian police and the other camp staff did at
16 that moment to try and stop what was going on in front of them?
17 A. Unfortunately it was the military police who were doing it, the
18 military police who were escorting the prisoners, they were doing these
19 things. As for the military police, the military police served for the
20 internal security of the camp, certainly not outside the main gate of the
21 camp. They could not go outside and they could especially not get into
22 conflict with the civilian police.
23 Q. So --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wish to clarify.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In your last sentence at the beginning you
4 said -- this is what I read in the transcript, you said:
5 "Unfortunately it was the military police who were doing it, the
6 military police who were escorting the prisoners ..."
7 Is that what you said?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the civilian police was
9 bringing these prisoners and escorting the buses, and the military police
10 served for the internal security of the camp. They had absolutely no
11 authority or powers or ability to go outside the gate and take any
12 steps --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because they were in charge of
15 securing the facility of the camp.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification. Perhaps it was
17 a slip of the tongue or interpretation issue.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you a very direct question. Why didn't
19 you go to the fence and say: Hey, you guys, stop doing that. Isn't that
20 a human duty, rather than to call someone who is at a distance of 20,
21 30 kilometres away -- I mean, I don't need authority if I see someone
22 killing another person to at least say that he should stop doing that and
23 not kill a second person, a third person, a fourth person. That's the
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regrettably, three men who were
1 commanders or something came to the gate and said, "Who do you think you
2 are that you are standing in the way of a regular admission of these
3 people?" Two of them came to the office and said, "We had orders from
4 our boss and you have to do what our boss says." They mean their boss
5 from the civilian police. So that ruled out any possibility for me to
6 tell them: People, do your job the way you should, according to regular
7 procedure, make the lists, et cetera. They refused it all. They said,
8 "If you don't want to do what our boss says, we're not going to talk to
9 you anymore." So I couldn't go to the gate and especially not remind
10 them of their human duty and norms of behaviour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. First of all, these people who came to your office who referred
14 to their boss, who did you understand them to be referring to? Who was
15 the boss?
16 A. Yes. The boss was Simo Drljaca, the chief of the security
17 centre -- security services of Prijedor, the chief for that region.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, can I just get a clarification
20 Sir, you say you, the military police, were responsible for
21 security inside the camp and could not do anything. When you phoned
22 Stevan Bogojevic to send in a platoon of military police, what were they
23 coming to do if the military police in the camp could do nothing?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police didn't dare to
25 do anything. They were not able to do anything. It was not in their
1 purview. It was not within their authority. Their job was to provide
2 security for that thousand or so people inside the facility and to
3 prevent anyone from coming in. And I called in that platoon of military
4 police, because I knew they were always available, in order to prevent
5 this because these men had obviously run out of control. I don't know
6 what their reasons were. I wanted them to put an end to it, and within a
7 very short time, 45 minutes, they arrived. It was an intervention unit
8 who had their own vehicle, et cetera, they arrived very quickly.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I appreciate what you've told us, but that
10 doesn't answer my question. My question is: If the military police
11 inside the camp cannot or do not have the authority to intervene, by what
12 right do the military police from somewhere else have the right to
13 intervene where civilian police are involved?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the structure of
15 command and control, the platoon of the military police within the
16 1st Krajina Corps is available. It's not a different police, it's just a
17 different platoon which serves as a protection platoon for special
18 purposes, special actions. They arrived ultimately to protect their own
19 colleagues in case of an attack on the camp and also to put a stop to
20 what was going on.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The camp was not being attacked. It is the
22 detainees in the buses who were being attacked. The military police in
23 the camp said they had no authority to do anything. I don't understand
24 how the military police from the platoon of the KK could have any
25 authority. You're not answering that question unfortunately, and if you
1 don't have an answer just say to me: I don't have an answer to that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an answer to that question
3 because when that military police platoon came, that platoon of the
4 reserve police, they placed their combat vehicle outside the gate. The
5 platoon of the military police was deployed and the civilian police then
6 accepted our conditions as to how to proceed, to make the lists,
7 et cetera. That was the point of the arrival of that other police unit.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about lists. I'm talking about
9 stopping the killing of the people. Anyway, again I say you haven't
10 answered my question and I leave it there.
11 Madam Edgerton, you may proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. So you said that the military police at Manjaca had no authority
14 to intervene to stop that killing. What about the military
15 responsibility to protect prisoners of war and civilians under the
16 Geneva Conventions, didn't that oblige them to act at that moment to stop
17 the crime unfolding in front of them?
18 A. Well, that's why that platoon of military police was inside, for
19 the purposes of internal security, to protect those of us who were
20 working there and the prisoners of war. I have to recall that a person
21 becomes a prisoner of war once he passes through the gate of the camp,
22 not before. They were in charge of protecting the prisoners inside the
23 camp, certainly not outside.
24 Q. So you're saying that the Geneva Conventions in this case didn't
25 apply because these detainees hadn't passed the gates of Manjaca before
1 they were beaten to death?
2 A. Well, you can interpret it that way too because they had not been
3 turned over to us yet and they were not logged in the book of prisoners.
4 But as I said earlier, we tried to organise that as the rules of the camp
5 governed involving the hand-over of the lists and the Geneva Conventions
6 also regulate that kind of admission process.
7 Q. Well, my question wasn't about my interpretation. I want to know
8 about your interpretation. Are you saying that you and the military
9 police at Manjaca had no obligation to act to stop the crime unfolding in
10 front of them, according to some kind of regulations?
11 A. I've already stressed this. The military police inside, every
12 policeman had his own place and a certain area of responsibility that he
13 supervised and monitored. All that happened within the camp. He had no
14 right under the orders to go outside. Everything related to security and
15 protection related to the inside of the camp and that's what the
16 Geneva Conventions governed. There were more than 2.000 people inside
17 and they needed to be protected.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, perhaps you should move on.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.
20 Q. Yesterday you told Mr. Stojanovic that prisoners arrived at
21 Manjaca with visible injuries, and you said that at transcript page 31731
22 to 31732. And so on the subject of injuries to prisoners, it's also
23 correct, isn't it, that prisoners were beaten by the military police
24 coming to and from their interrogations; correct?
25 A. Unfortunately, such things happened too. It was not standard
1 practice and there were certainly no orders to do that, but individuals
2 with bad intentions, with a desire for revenge, did such things.
3 Q. And prisoners were also beaten as they arrived at the camp when
4 they got off whatever means of transport had brought them, that the
5 people who brought them would make a gauntlet for the prisoners entering
6 the camp to pass through, and as they went through that gauntlet the
7 prisoners were beaten; right?
8 A. Unfortunately, that did happen in the beginning, that is to say,
9 until a selection was made of policemen who were providing security.
10 Since we could not have insight into the files of these military
11 policemen, what kind of persons they were, whether they had some
12 frustrations, et cetera, they abused the situation and they did that.
13 However, very quickly a selection took place or perhaps it would be
14 better to say that a certain number of soldiers, policemen, were removed
15 and people who could do this more professionally were brought in. And
16 then these so-called gauntlets or whatever they were called - I don't
17 know how the prisoners interpreted this - that was strictly prohibited
18 then and no longer applied.
19 I'm sorry, as for bringing people in for interrogations, that did
20 happen. When persons were brought in for interrogation, then some
21 policemen tried to mete out justice the way they saw it fit and they did
22 what they did as they were bringing people in for questioning, but then
23 we dealt with that too.
24 Q. And prisoners were also beaten during their interrogations by the
25 civilian police officers, the policemen you referred to yesterday who
1 would come and work in the offices of the security organs; right?
2 A. Unfortunately, they applied that method, too, of forcibly
3 acquiring evidence, if we can put it that way. We could hear these
4 screams and moans. They applied these methods. Our team had no need to
5 do that. We really worked in such a way that would relax them so that we
6 could get certain information. Again, I say, unfortunately we could not
7 affect their work. They had their own guide-lines or their own rules of
8 conduct and they were not duty-bound to report to us, even if we were to
9 give them certain recommendations.
10 Q. And on top of hearing the screams and the moans of prisoners
11 being beaten in the offices nearby you, you yourself saw the marks of
12 being beaten on the prisoners you personally interrogated; right?
13 A. Yes. When a policeman or a patrol would bring in a particular
14 person for an interview, an interview as we called it, then as
15 professionals we noticed that there were fresh injuries on these people,
16 that is to say, traces of blood and things like that. These people,
17 these prisoners even interpreted it in the following way: He tripped
18 over and fell and that's how he had a scratch or a bruise or whatever.
19 That was done in order to prevent even harsher beatings later. Of course
20 we found out very quickly who these policemen were who did that kind of
21 thing and an express procedure was applied to remove them from the
22 service; that is to say, they were no longer allowed to be there and do
23 that job.
24 Q. They were military policemen; right?
25 A. Military policemen from the security of the camp itself,
1 literally. No one else had the right to enter this inner security
3 Q. Now, you --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one additional question just to this
6 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us just now that sometimes people were
8 brought in to the interview by you and you saw injuries. What did you
9 do? Did you record them?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We as professionals, I mean it is
11 most logical, I mean from the documents that you have available here you
12 can conclude that we did our work extremely professionally and the least
13 we could do is record that or as a matter of fact we asked for medical
14 assistance, rather we would send them to the duty doctor, or rather, the
15 medical technician who would call in a doctor and who would treat a
16 particular person's wounds and so on. What we did later, it is only
17 logical, we asked for that automatically. From our sources who were
18 among the population there, we found out who these soldiers were who did
19 that kind of thing and that was against regulations and --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you. You went beyond my
21 question. I want to know where these injuries were noted down on paper.
22 Was it in the file where the interview was written down or was it
23 somewhere else, and was it reported to your superiors?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly the superiors were
25 informed because they were the only ones who could allow for a
1 replacement of certain policemen. It's not that my colleagues and I
2 could simply chase them away --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are not --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it went to --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the end of
6 the sentence.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're not focusing on my question. Did you
8 write that down on paper and can that be found? And did you report in
9 writing to your superiors? Not -- I'm not asking about the procedure of
10 replacement of military policemen. How did you inform about the injuries
11 and how they were inflicted?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on paper. I mean the paper was
13 about the interview on a particular topic that we dealt with, so that
14 didn't belong there. It's up the chain of command that we reported
15 orally that this kind of thing was happening.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not on paper. Thank you very much.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. And you -- when you say you reported orally up the chain of
19 command, you mean you reported to your superior Bogojevic at the corps
20 command; right?
21 A. Precisely, because it wasn't a single case. There were several
22 cases and then we concluded that certain policemen could no longer do
23 that and we asked through the chain of command to have them replaced.
24 Q. Now, just on the subject of the treatment of prisoners I want to
25 talk for a little while about Omer Filipovic, actually, and I want to
1 show you a document.
2 MS. EDGERTON: And it's under seal, Your Honours, we'll have to
3 go into private session briefly to show the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 31778-31781 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. So in fact --
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. In fact, there was no working water-supply for the prisoners in
24 Manjaca camp at the end of July 1992 and no working water-supply when the
25 1400 prisoners from Omarska arrived and they didn't have enough water,
1 did they?
2 A. Well, just as they didn't have it, then we didn't have it either.
3 We were there too, we didn't have any water and that's how water was
4 brought to us also, in jerrycans. Unfortunately there was no system
5 there. Later on this was taken care of and then it functioned and then
6 people didn't go to fetch water any longer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, two minutes ago you told us there was good
8 water-supply, no problem whatsoever. And now Ms. Edgerton puts to you
9 that there was no water and you say: Well, we didn't have it either.
10 That's not very consistent. It undermines the credibility and the
11 reliability of your evidence. I don't know whether you are aware of
12 that. To explain why there was not sufficient water one minute after you
13 told us that there was sufficient water is at least something that would
14 puzzle us. Any comments on that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have a comment. That is to
16 say, if there is no water for them, there is no water for us. So when
17 water is brought for them, then water is brought for us too. That is the
18 only interpretation. That is all.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. To go on to another area, you talked in your written evidence
23 about the suffocation of 24 prisoners from Sanski Most during their
24 transportation to Manjaca and I want to ask you a little bit about that.
25 First of all, you reported to your corps command the fact that
1 these prisoners were suffocated during their transportation; right?
2 A. Well, that was our statement, that is to say of the military
3 policemen who were in contact with the civilian police that brought in
4 these trucks, or rather, these prisoners in trucks, that they literally
5 suffocated because the trucks were covered with tarpaulin. So they were
6 sealed, not to mince my words, and they simply suffocated. There was no
7 oxygen and that is how the people who were weaker died.
8 Q. All right. Now, also in your written evidence you said that your
9 orders -- actually, you said "our orders" were to load these prisoners
10 who had suffocated back on the trucks. So I want to ask you a couple
11 questions about that.
12 First of all, since you were part of the reception committee that
13 day you would know that it was Colonel Popovic who actually ordered the
14 bodies be removed; right?
15 A. Colonel Popovic as camp commander gave that order but at our
16 proposal, the proposal of the security organs, because they wanted at all
17 costs to leave those dead people there, but we had our rules and there
18 was no space for this to be done. And Colonel Popovic gave this order to
19 load them on to the trucks and then to take them to Sanski Most and do
20 whatever it was that they were supposed to do with them.
21 Q. Okay. So since this was your order I just want to get this
22 straight. So no steps were taken to identify the dead persons, right?
23 You just said -- you told Colonel Popovic: Load them up and take them
25 A. Unfortunately, that was a logical sequence because we took in
1 only the living. We could not take in the dead. We did not have records
2 as to who was left there, I mean during the hand-over -- I mean people's
3 names were called out and one by one and of course we could not deal with
4 the dead in that way.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, are you serious in telling us that
6 because if you would call out persons that had died, that that's the
7 reason just to do nothing, just leave matters as they are, let's get rid
8 of the bodies? Is that your testimony?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't for us to deal with
10 dead bodies because we did not contribute in any way that this would
11 happen within the Manjaca camp. Quite simply, they could not have been
12 taken in because they were not alive. I don't see what's in dispute
13 there. Those were the regulations, those were the orders we received,
14 and that is how we behaved. I think it was only logical for them to be
15 returned to where they had come from.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't this an extraordinary situation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is an extraordinary
18 situation, but we are not in charge of doing anything else.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that in extraordinary situations, the
20 rules usually do not provide for a response which would then allow
21 everyone to say: The rules didn't tell us what we had to do, therefore
22 we left it to others?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we could not decide
24 on our own. The moment we realised there were 24 dead, we automatically
25 had to contact the chief of our service to report to him what was going
1 on. We had no powers to make decisions independently one way or another.
2 We were waiting for feedback from our superior command. They said along
3 the chain of command we would inform the security services centre in
4 Sanski Most to collect them and take them back to where these people had
5 come from. We just carried out what was within our competence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock, it's time
7 for a break.
8 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. We take a
10 Could you give us an indication as to how much more time you'd
11 need, Ms. Edgerton, after the break?
12 [The witness stands down]
13 MS. EDGERTON: I'll check to be more accurate, but I think I'll
14 use my estimated time, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Which was, let me -- two hours, 25.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I'll aim for two hours, 15, actually,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you take your time during the break,
19 then we'll take the time to ask Mr. Registrar ...
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Until now you've used one hour, 27 minutes, that's
22 net time.
23 We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Radinkovic, we'll just continue where we left off, still on
5 the same subject about the prisoners from Sanski Most.
6 Now, can you tell us, you've already said that it was Popovic who
7 gave the order to remove the bodies based on your proposal, so were you
8 actually there when the bodies were loaded back on to the truck?
9 A. No. It's -- the patrol of the military police who was on duty
10 went outside, stood outside at the gate, and when the living were
11 disembarking from the buses, the dead bodies were taken out too. I
12 personally wasn't watching.
13 Q. And what about when the dead were loaded back on to the truck to
14 be driven away, were you there or not?
15 A. It wasn't my job to leave the camp without any special need. If
16 the military police was carrying out its tasks --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as envisaged --
19 JUDGE ORIE: The simple question was whether you were there when
20 the dead were loaded back on to the truck. Were you there or were you
21 not there?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's an answer to the question.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. So you wouldn't have seen that it was not only -- that loaded on
2 to the truck were not only the people who had suffocated, there were men
3 who were unconscious and there were prisoners who were very much alive
4 loaded on to the truck and driven away. You didn't see that, did you?
5 A. No, I was not informed that the living were turned back, because
6 all the living were admitted into the camp, even those who had to be
7 carried in from that transport.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, no one asked you whether you were
9 informed. The question was whether you had seen it. Apparently you have
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. So if you -- if you --
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now you told us that it was the civilian police who brought these
16 detainees from Sanski Most to Manjaca camp, but you weren't there to see
17 that either, were you?
18 A. In any case, the civilian police was bringing prisoners from
19 these municipalities, and I certainly wasn't there, I didn't go outside
20 because there was no need.
21 Q. So you don't know, then, that it was actually members of the
22 6th Krajina Brigade who were among the people escorting these trucks
23 where people suffocated to death? You don't know that?
24 A. I don't know that. We were told that the civilian police from
25 Sanski Most was escorting them. That's the report we got, and the
1 civilian police were present during the hand-over.
2 Q. We'll go on to another area, and I want to go to a document that
3 you saw during your testimony in the Karadzic proceedings.
4 MS. EDGERTON: It's P2899.
5 Q. So you've had a look at this document -- I'll wait a couple of
6 minutes. There we go. You've had a look at this document a couple of
7 years ago. It's a daily report of your team dated 18 to 20 August 1992
8 to the 1st Krajina Corps on the interrogation of prisoners of war at
9 Manjaca and the visit of a group of foreign journalists.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to English page 4 and B/C/S page 2,
12 Q. So have a look at the paragraph at the -- it's your document, so
13 have a look at the paragraph at the bottom of the page in your language
14 and the bottom of the page in English as well.
15 Now, it says you received a task from Major Stupar, which was the
16 result of a telegram from the Main Staff of the Serbian Army. And in
17 accordance with this telegram there was a joint -- a large joint meeting
18 at Manjaca camp, representatives of the Bosanska Dubica, Kljuc,
19 Banja Luka, Prijedor, and Mrkonjic Grad police services came to Manjaca,
20 and there at that joint meeting Major Stupar and Vaso Skondric presented
21 some tasks and instructions for joint work. So you remember the meeting,
22 right, we talked about it two years ago?
23 A. Yes, yes, I remember that meeting, we did.
24 Q. All right. So having seen this document, let's move on to a
25 related document, it's P223, which I also showed you two years ago. It's
1 an excerpt from the diary of a Kljuc SJB police inspector who you knew by
2 the name of Tore Gajic and these are his notes about that meeting.
3 So just have a look at the first page. So he writes on the
4 20th of August you see that you at number 4, are among the people who sat
5 with Stupar and Skondric and the camp commander to discuss, as it says in
6 the document, the treatment and prominence of persons who participated in
7 armed disturbances.
8 Now, if you just go down under point 4, underneath your name, you
9 see reference to:
10 "Introductory remarks on the Serbian republic presidency's
11 position were presented by Major Stupar."
12 And then there's a note:
13 "A list of 92 individuals, for whom there is no evidence of
14 executing/participating in military activities, they are quite ill and
15 their appearance is attracting attention from the media and humanitarian
17 So this is what you understood the Presidency's position to be,
18 right, you had to gather a list of individuals for whom there was no
19 evidence that they had taken part in military activities, were sick,
20 or -- and whose appearance is attracting attention from humanitarian
21 organisations. That's what you understood; right?
22 A. Yes, that's how I understood it, but it was already the product
23 of our work by that time. We had already identified 92 people of that
24 kind and it was our initiative that these people should either be
25 exchanged or allowed to go to third countries or leave the camp in some
1 other way.
2 Q. All right. So let's have -- just go over a couple of pages and
3 have a quick look at your list.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 5 in both languages.
5 Q. At number 11 on page 5, you see a young man or a man by the name
6 of Refik Salihovic and he was arrested on May 29th and he's sick with
7 active tuberculosis. So this is an example of one of the people who you
8 picked that fit the criteria you were given; right?
9 A. I've already said it's not they who gave us the criteria. We had
10 already produced these criteria ourselves. Following the work of the
11 medical team day by day, it was established that a number of these people
12 should be sent away to receive medical care, and that includes the number
13 you just mentioned.
14 Q. So --
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
16 All right. Let's just go over and quickly look at another one.
17 Let's go over to page 12 in both languages.
18 Q. On page 12 there's a fellow by the name of Denis Gromlic who was
19 17 at the time he was arrested, right, he was born in 1975. So that's
20 another example of the type of people who fit these criteria; right?
21 You're not arguing with that, are you?
22 A. It fits that criteria perfectly and I have nothing to dispute.
23 These are the facts.
24 MS. EDGERTON: So let's go look at one final one before we leave
25 this document, let's go back to page 6.
1 Q. Do you see the name Refik Dedovic at number 20? He's got kidney
2 disease, born in 1934. Right?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the name. I think you misspoke.
4 MS. EDGERTON: I did.
5 Q. Refik Dedic, born in 1934.
6 A. You're asking me? Yes, I see that and he was supposed to be one
7 of the first to go. That's only logical, because we had already
8 transported him in an ambulance to the clinical centre. There was no
9 dialysis available at that time. We just sent him away for medical
10 assistance, and I believe after this he was sent to Geneva for treatment.
11 Q. All right. Now, so when we talked about this document in the
12 Karadzic case and I asked you what you understood -- whether this is what
13 you understood to be the Presidency's position, to release those people
14 for whom there is no evidence of executing military activities, that
15 they're quite ill, and their appearance is attracting international
16 attention, what you said was: Yes, you understood that to be the
17 Presidency's position because Major Stupar came from corps command with
18 that kind of position, the command position, and he must have received
19 that on the basis of an order from the Presidency or higher organs. You
20 can confirm that; right?
21 A. I confirmed then and I confirm now, Major Stupar and that crew
22 who attended that meeting only confirmed the position that was passed
23 along the chain of command from the Main Staff and the Presidency,
24 specifically the president of the republic, that these people whom we had
25 already suggested should go should be urgently released. It was their
1 position and we had no consideration for public opinion or the
2 international public, et cetera. The interest of the world public had
3 nothing to do with it. We were interested in getting treatment for these
4 people, including this boy who was underage.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Now, now, let's go to one last document, it's
7 Q. And it's dated 11 September 1992 and it's another document you
8 saw two years ago. Now, this is a document from your corps command
9 forwarding the contents of a telegram from the Presidency granting
10 amnesty to 69 prisoners from Manjaca and Trnopolje, and three of
11 them - just three of them - Gromlic, who's at number 6; Salihovic, who's
12 at number 17 -- two of them are the names you discussed at the August
13 meeting. So a small subset, a very small number of the names you
14 discussed at that meeting are released; right?
15 A. Well, of course. We made a list - shall I call it a wish
16 list? - of people who should go and the command was just supposed to
17 decide which of them or if all of them would be allowed to leave in
18 various ways, through exchange or release, et cetera.
19 Q. So, Mr. Radinkovic, this is only a token gesture -- whatever your
20 motivation, whatever your personal motivation might have been, this is
21 only a token gesture by your leadership to avoid international
22 condemnation, isn't it?
23 A. It's their right and their policy that I didn't go into. We did
24 our job professionally. And as for why the authorities decided what they
25 decided, whether to score points with somebody else, it's up to them. It
1 had nothing to do with us.
2 Q. Well, what they decided, Mr. Radinkovic, was to hold thousands of
3 non-Serb detainees at Manjaca until it was closed in December of 1992,
4 releasing them only on the condition that they be sent to third countries
5 and that was their policy, wasn't it? You were there at the time, you
6 saw it?
7 A. Yes, and I participated in the selection. Military age,
8 able-bodied men who were captured, regardless of whether they had a
9 criminal record or not, were the most logical choice for being released
10 to go to third countries, because it was not in our interest to release
11 them and then have to fight them on the other side if they rejoined the
13 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question in relation to the last answer
15 you gave.
16 It may not have been in your interests, but what was the legal
17 basis for sending them abroad if they would have preferred to go home,
18 for example?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among them there are some
20 people - I have to tell you this - who had expressed their intention,
21 their willingness, to join the Army of Republika Srpska. That's a
22 statement they made to the security organs. They wanted to join their
23 neighbours and friends in the troops. We could not release them to go
24 home because that was not safe, and the second safest option was for them
25 to go to third countries where they would be given accommodation and
1 means of survival. But we couldn't release them to go home. Physically
2 it was impossible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "physically it was impossible"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was impossible. It would
5 have been a sin to release them from the Manjaca camp to go to their own
6 homes. If they had been on the receiving end of beatings even there, you
7 can imagine what would have happened outside. So the most logical choice
8 was to let them go somewhere where they would be given accommodation.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Which you switch in one minute from telling us that
10 it was not in your interest, that they would become members of the
11 opposite army; and then to say: Well, we protected them. What would
12 have happened to them if they were subject to beating if they would have
13 returned to their own community?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, logically that was the safest
15 place for them because it was impossible for outsiders to come in and
16 harm them, which would have not been the case if they had been at large.
17 God knows what would have happened if they ran into the military police
18 or the civilian police, God knows how they would have fared. So the
19 safest place for them to go was a third country.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A minute ago you said:
21 "Among them there are some people - I have to tell you this - who
22 had expressed their intention, their willingness to join the Army of
23 Republika Srpska. That's a statement they made to the security organs."
24 Now, first of all, I wondered whether they had expressed their
25 willingness to join the Army of Republika Srpska because you then
1 continue to say:
2 "They wanted to join their neighbours and friends in the troops."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly. There was a certain
4 number of people of different ethnicities in our army throughout the war,
5 I mean Muslims and Croats.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think I now better understand. You say they
7 wanted to join our army but they would not be safe in our army if they
8 would be there with their neighbours, and therefore it was better for
9 them to go abroad. What about saying: Well, perhaps the army is not the
10 safest place, perhaps you better go home and do not join our army?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but your conclusion is
12 not correct. I knew there was a certain number of people who had even
13 made written statements about their willingness and desire to join the
14 army. This number of people would have followed a completely different
15 procedure. That is separate from our position, from our opinion, that
16 for some other people the safest place to go was a third country.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to me now. Are you saying
18 those who wished to join the VRS, were they sent abroad or is it the
19 others? Because you said "some had expressed," whereas apparently others
20 had not expressed such a wish. Now, which -- could you first deal with
21 the ones who expressed a wish to join the VRS. Was there a completely
22 different procedure for them or what happened to them?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a procedure. Quite simply, we
24 documented their written statements and they even exist here at the
25 Tribunal; that is to say, that was their decision, their wish, or perhaps
1 it was their assessment that that was the only way in which they could
2 get out, out of the camp, but that was for them. It was for us to send
3 this on. In the meantime a certain order arrived stating that a larger
4 number should leave including those, we included those. The army did not
5 call them up in a particular unit. Of course we put them on this list
6 and including 500-something people, they went to Sweden or wherever.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give them the option to go home instead of
8 to Sweden?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could not have given them that
10 and it wasn't our mandate to give them that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement we find some observations in
12 relation to Dr. Enes Sabanovic, who you said was not an extremist, not at
13 all. And I think you told that he was then in the reception committee.
14 Is that well understood?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is well understood. We
16 received certain information from the civilian authorities in the
17 accompanying documents that he was some kind of an extremist in
18 Sanski Most and so on. However, through our operative work,
19 intelligence, and working with the man himself, we came to the conclusion
20 that he was an exceptionally honest and fair man, a good physician, and
21 he provided assistance to his colleagues.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when you found out that he was not an
23 extremist and that he was an extremely honest man, what did you then do?
24 Did he continue to work in the reception committee?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he had -- he had semi-prison
1 status literally. He was staying among the prisoners but he had the
2 right to leave at his own request, even at his own request, let alone
3 when somebody would come to get him out. Then our male nurse from the
4 infirmary would come and get him and they would provide medication
5 together and so on. He was a good man and we said that to our superiors
6 too. No matter how much we needed him, that he should nevertheless be
7 one of the first to leave, regardless of whether it would be an exchange
8 or going to third countries or whatever.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but although there was no proper reason to
10 remain in detention, he nevertheless, although with a special status,
11 remained in Manjaca, as you said, semi-prison status, he was not
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nobody was released except
14 for the pardon that the president of the republic provided to certain
15 persons. Only when we would receive information in writing to that
16 effect from the president that he had pardoned someone or released them,
17 then that person would be escorted by the military police and would be
18 taken to a place where he would be taken over by the civilian structures;
19 that is to say, no one could have -- I mean, it's for the sake of their
20 own safety and security if they were to leave they could not move about
22 JUDGE ORIE: One final question. You referred to the
23 Geneva Conventions several times. Are you aware that under international
24 humanitarian law which we find in the Geneva Conventions, that there is
25 individual responsibility which cannot be evaded by saying that you acted
1 under orders? Are you aware of that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone who worked on the team for
3 dealing with prisoners of war had to study the Geneva Conventions, and I
4 was aware of them, my colleagues were aware of them; however, war and
5 conflict are one thing and all of this is -- well, I claim with full
6 responsibility that we as human beings made a superhuman effort to make
7 these people feel as safe as possible and we did our best so that they
8 would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions if not 100 per cent,
9 then up to a maximum. We were -- how should I put this? We were the
10 ones who took care of the police and everything else regardless of all of
11 these other things. We gave our contribution under the given
12 circumstances and possibilities because there were also questions like
13 supplies and we were not -- well, it was the way it was.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Are you telling us that because there was a war
15 situation that it would be difficult to fully comply with the Geneva
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, because you should all,
18 all of you here should bear in mind that this is 1992 and that the
19 population of Republika Srpska was hungry for the most part; that is to
20 say, the supplies were very poor and so on and so forth. But we -- or
21 rather -- no, not we, the camp command managed to provide as much as was
22 possible at that point in time. That is why I'm saying that a maximum
23 was given, the maximum of what was possible at that time.
24 Let me add something else to this. Some people came and it was
25 very hot, summertime, and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to ask you for
2 further examples. If I understand you well you say: Well, in war time,
3 Geneva Conventions cannot always be fully complied with. That's when you
4 refer to 1992, when you're referring to the situation, when you said war
5 is one thing, and I take it that you meant with that that in war
6 circumstances you might not be able or that the Geneva Conventions
7 should -- the application of Geneva Conventions should be adapted to the
8 war situation. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wanted to say that we made a
10 maximum effort on our part so that things would be the best possible, the
11 safest possible, and so on. As for other circumstances, we could not
12 affect them. There was a war going on. That's what I was saying.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Any questions in re-examination? Judge Moloto has one or more
15 questions for you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Sir, we saw from the list of 92 people who
17 were ill, only two were listed among those who were pardoned, the 57 who
18 were pardoned. What became of the remaining 90 of the sick ones?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They waited for the first exchange
20 that would come or the first departure. The first group went to Geneva,
21 I think, if I remember correctly. They were waiting for the following
22 list, the following team, if you will, that was 520 prisoners.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they not being treated as priority because of
24 their ill health? I see people are being pardoned and -- over them?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We gave them priority, we who
1 processed them and provided the information, we thought that they were a
2 priority; however, the assessment of others who were above us was the one
3 that was decisive who could go. It was for us to give a green light, but
4 all departures were not based on our lists.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long did it take from the time that you
6 received this position of the leadership before they were finally
7 released, the 520?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the time distance, as far as
9 I can remember it was about a month.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And all of the 90 were amongst the 520?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, regrettably.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they were sent to third countries in that poor
13 state of health?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they went there to be
15 treated, didn't they?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What means of transport did they use to go to
17 third world -- countries?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Buses, organised, a sufficient
19 number of seats, too, so that they would not leave as they had arrived to
20 us. They went through Croatia and then I don't know how they went after
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radinkovic, you remember you spoke quite a
2 bit about this incident upon the arrival of a larger number of prisoners
3 from Omarska, and you said that you specifically informed your superior
4 according to the security and intelligence chain. Your immediate
5 superior in the camp, Manjaca, in regular daily reports did he inform the
6 superior command in writing about the incident that had occurred?
7 A. We did not have any insight as to what the commander
8 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic said in his reports to the command. We were
9 just duty-bound to provide regular reports at least once a week if
10 everything was normal and, if necessary, even on a daily basis when such
11 an incident would occur. So a dispatch was sent on the same day -- or
12 perhaps a better word would be mail was sent --
13 JUDGE ORIE: You're explaining the whole of the system of
14 reporting. The question, however, was whether in the daily reports
15 Popovic reported this incident. Do you know whether he did or don't you
16 know? If you don't know, tell us; if you do know, tell us what he
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was informed that he in his
19 report accentuated that day and that development from his point of view,
20 but to a different service, not the security service. I'm not aware of
21 the content.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. You as security organs, according to your own chain,
24 did you objectively and truthfully provide information in these daily
25 reports about the situation and about the information that you received
1 while working in Manjaca?
2 A. Certainly. You may have noticed that each and every one of our
3 documents is signed with a name and surname. We as security organs could
4 have used pseudonyms too; however, we decided that we could openly
5 provide our own names and stand before these people any day afterwards
6 and say that we as security organs did whatever we could have done.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move into
9 private session for a moment now and the document that I would like to
10 call up in e-court, could it please not be displayed, P233 --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Before we do that.
12 About the incident itself, did you report that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. There's a two-page
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 31804-31809 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock, we are approximately at
18 the time of a break. How much time would you still need?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another four documents,
20 Your Honours. It would take 15 minutes, I think.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We will take them after the break.
22 Witness, we take a break. We would like to see you back in
23 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
4 the courtroom.
5 I see Mr. Lukic is not present. The Chamber wanted to pay
6 further attention to the request to allow Sasa Lukic to examine
7 witnesses. I do not know whether the presence of lead counsel Lukic is
8 needed for that or whether you could provide us all the information
9 because we want to have detailed information about qualifications,
10 et cetera, of Mr. Sasa Lukic. I don't know whether you would like to
11 call your lead counsel for that purpose because we might do it at the end
12 of the testimony of this witness.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it would be better
15 perhaps, for this more detailed information, to take the details from my
16 colleague Mr. Branko Lukic. I think that would be all right, although
17 another colleague is working now in our Defence team room.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is it possible that Mr. Branko Lukic,
19 your lead counsel, is -- will be present, well, let's say, in the next
20 20 to 30 minutes? Is he around?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll try. He's in our offices,
22 Your Honours. We'll try. I believe it's realistic to get him here
23 within that time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And if he comes, he should be prepared to
25 give all details about Mr. Sasa Lukic.
1 Then, Mr. Stojanovic, meanwhile please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. We can now continue in open session, Mr. Radinkovic, and I should
4 like us to look at one document.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 07062, 07062. I don't
6 think that's the right document. The number that I have, 07062 -- no,
7 that's not the right document, Your Honours. Until I'm able to identify
8 the right one, I'll move on to the next one. P0 -- P2881. That's the
9 right document.
10 Q. Mr. Radinkovic, could you kindly look at it. It's a telegram
11 from the Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 12 August 1992. In this text we see that it's
13 under the name of Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at item 2.
15 Q. "For the purpose of creating appropriate living conditions in the
16 Manjaca camp, immediately execute the following ..."
17 Now, look at item 2:
18 "Provide adequate accommodation to the prisoners, meals in the
19 amount of 2.800 calories per person per day, continuous water-supply for
20 washing and for drinking, no less than 20 litres per prisoner, soap, and
22 Can you remember if you had occasion to read this telegram of the
23 Main Staff sent to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps?
24 A. I can remember because in the accompanying document from the
25 General Staff, or rather, the corps command and lower units it was always
1 sent to us or there was an accompanying letter from the Presidency
2 referenced so that we were able to see from where it's coming.
3 Q. Thus, did the administration of the POW camp at Manjaca have the
4 ability logistically to meet the commitments that followed from this
5 order of the Main Staff?
6 A. Unfortunately, as far as I'm able to remember, it was not
7 possible to meet all of these requirements because, as I said, many
8 things were in short supply. There was a deficit of fuel and food and it
9 couldn't be supplied from the corps command to the Manjaca camp. We did
10 our best to meet these requirements, but some things were just not
11 feasible. At that time it was not totally realistic.
12 Q. In paragraph 4 of this telegram --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could scroll down so that
14 after the Trial Chamber reads this sentence we could move to the second
16 Q. -- it says:
17 "All the prisoners who are wounded, sick, or handicapped are to
18 be transferred to a special facility which is to be made into a prison
19 hospital with the equipment for radiography and other diagnostic
20 equipment for periodic x-rays for prisoners who have tuberculosis."
21 Can you remember if work was done to implement this order of the
22 Crisis Staff as well?
23 A. Yes, work was done, especially because there was some inmates who
24 had tuberculosis. Even before this order they were placed in a facility
25 separate from other POWs, but it was technically impossible to place
1 radiography equipment in that facility. In any case, they were not far
2 from the clinic where they could be occasionally taken for x-rays and
3 other procedures --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, you are interpreted as striking
5 off this order coming from the Crisis Staff, is that correct, or I see it
6 comes from Mr. Mladic. If you look at page 51, line 8:
7 "Can you remember if work was done to implement this order of the
8 Crisis Staff ..."
9 Did it come from the Crisis Staff?
10 THE INTERPRETER: It must be a mistake of the interpreter. I'm
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The interpreter has answered.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
15 Q. In paragraph 5 we read among the orders in this telegram of the
16 Main Staff:
17 "Immediately stop all sorts of mistreatment, physical assaults,
18 and beatings of the prisoners."
19 My question is: Was this a constant order of the Main Staff and
20 your superior command?
21 A. That was a constant order. But this date coincides with some of
22 our reports or initiatives that certain people be removed from their
23 positions because they were unable to do their work properly, and it came
24 as a confirmation from our chief commander to clear this situation up.
25 And very quickly after this, the best possible order was restored.
1 Q. Could you now look at paragraph 6, the Main Staff writes:
2 "Review the possibility of releasing civilian prisoners, whereas
3 the military prisoners are to be ensured the conditions that have been
5 How did you understand it? How did you understand your job in
6 creating the possibility for considering the release of some prisoners?
7 A. By that time we had already finished with a triage and we knew
8 exactly which prisoners could be released, could be allowed to go free,
9 and that's what I referred to when I spoke about some of them going to
10 third countries, which was the safest option. And as for the others, we
11 also made some proposals that they be exchanged or sent to third
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please look at
15 P2 --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we move to another document, I have some
17 questions with respect to this, especially the last answer.
18 Mr. Radinkovic, in the document under item 6 it says:
19 "Take into consideration a possibility of releasing civilian
20 prisoners ..."
21 You told us that you didn't have any authorities to release
22 somebody. And now explaining this item 6 you said -- you are talking
23 about transferring people to a third country, but nothing about release.
24 Can you explain that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can explain with full
1 responsibility. Regardless of the fact that this was signed by the
2 commander of the Main Staff, according to our rules of service, the way
3 things worked in the camp we could not release prisoners to leave the
4 camp on their own. That's the way it was regulated, but we had already
5 selected a number of people who could be allowed to leave the camp
6 because we had concluded they were civilians and had never been involved
7 in any military activity.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Reading number 6 doesn't limit the release to
9 release to a third country or prepare for an exchange.
10 "Take into consideration a possibility of releasing ... the
11 prisoners ..."
12 Did you take that into consideration? Did you make any proposals
13 to release civilians?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we could not do that, it was
15 not our mandate.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have another question. Can we go back to the
17 first page in English, please. I recall that you said: I can remember
18 this document because in the accompanying document from the General Staff
19 I saw it. You said: It was not possible to implement all of that,
20 especially to meet all of these requirements because, as I said, many
21 things were in short supply, and you mention fuel and food. How do you
22 react? You had an order to provide the prisoners with sufficient food.
23 What did you do when you realised that you're not able to do that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was more the job of the
25 camp commander. Our job, the job of the security organs, was just to
1 monitor to what extent it was being implemented. Our conclusion,
2 therefore, was that it was not feasible to implement all this. It was
3 certainly the wish of the camp commander to put this in practice, but the
4 reality was different.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what did the commander do after having
6 received this order?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the camp commander?
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the commander, if he received
10 instead of 2.800 calories per person, if he received 1.500 or whatever,
11 he must have addressed his superior command to urge them to supply the
12 difference. I stress again, it was the month of September --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, don't -- don't go further.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the whole Republika Srpska
15 was suffering from deficits and shortages --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Don't go further. I just wanted to know what he
17 did and you just said you suppose that he did something. You don't know
18 if he reported back to the superior units?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose he did --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you don't know --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because as I told you --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't go into his
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you report to anybody about this lack of
1 sufficient food?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, along our own chain of
3 command we reported that supplies were insufficient, and if anything
4 could be done as human beings, as officers, as troops, we should do
5 something to improve this. But it's important that we did so on our part
6 and I'm sure that the camp commander did as well.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was now asking about your action. You said:
8 "Certainly, along our own chain of command ..."
9 Do you remember that you reported in writing?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In one of our reports, certainly.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one follow-up question.
13 Sir, if you look at page 53 --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He can't look at that.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, all right. But anyway I'm citing this for
16 everybody else. Regarding paragraph 6 of this document you were asked
17 whether -- and if I'm -- whether --
18 "Did you take that into consideration? Did you make any
19 proposals to release civilians?"
20 You say:
21 "No, we could not do that, it was not our mandate."
22 Now, not only is this document mandating you; it is actually
23 ordering you to do so. So to say it was not your mandate is not correct,
24 isn't it? Because this order gives you the mandate.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order was global --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, sir, let's --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- if it was written that we should
3 release --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's stop right there. This order did not only
5 mandate you; it ordered you to do so, didn't it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In part, yes --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you were not right --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but our command had to --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you were not right to say you didn't have the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because we had also to receive
12 from our superior command a confirmed list based on the list that we had
13 prepared. We could not on our own do it based on the telegram sent down
14 from the main -- the chief commander.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So are you saying that Mr. Mladic was not your
16 command, was not your chief commander? He's the highest authority in the
17 army, or he was, and he's given you an order to carry out.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we honoured and respected
19 the fact that he was our chief commander, but I stressed that this
20 document had come as an attachment to the order of the command of the
21 1st Krajina Corps. They had to state expressly: On the orders of the
22 commander, release such and such people. That was not done. Not a
23 single document was made ordering us expressly as security organs to
24 release a specific number of people.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I should understand you to be saying that you
1 did nothing about this order until you could get an order from your
2 command, so this order didn't mean anything to you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can't say that it didn't
4 mean anything because it followed from another order. We were given
5 orders from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps and they were just
6 citing this order as the source.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just rephrase my question. You did nothing
8 in reaction to this order until you could get an order from your
9 immediate superior?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my answer. That's the way
11 we operated.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Following up on the question of honourable Judge Moloto, could we
16 look at P2909.
17 Q. We were now looking at a document which says: Consider the
18 possibility of releasing civilians among the prisoners, whereas the
19 military prisoners should be provided with certain conditions as ordered.
20 Now, look at this regular report dated 29 August 1992.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see the next page in B/C/S
22 and in English.
23 Q. You say here, and it is stated on this report that you wrote it,
24 Mr. Radinkovic:
25 "Based on the telegram of the Main Staff, we have engaged all our
1 forces in harmonising lists of prisoners of war which we" --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go to the first page, please.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let us look at
4 page 1.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was trying to find out where you were reading,
6 Mr. Stojanovic. I can't see where you were reading.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's on the next
8 page in B/C/S and in English, the last paragraph.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The B/C/S page was all right and
11 let's look at the English. It's the right page. And it will be
12 necessary to eventually move to the next page in English in order to
13 finish the paragraph. I'll quote:
14 "Pursuant to the telegram of the Main Staff, we have used all our
15 available forces to harmonise the list of prisoners of war which we have
16 managed to finalise and to submit, along with the necessary details, to
17 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps."
18 Q. What are you actually saying needs to be done here?
19 A. This is a written confirmation of what I have been trying to
20 explain. We have done all that we were able to, especially in view of
21 the order given us by our commander.
22 Q. In reviewing these lists, would it have speeded up your work to
23 check first who was a civilian and who was a military person in order to
24 be able to release some of them?
25 A. We have already done that work, but after we received this order
1 along with a copy of the telegram of the Main Staff, we reviewed our
2 lists again in order to arrive at a finalised list of people who should
3 leave the camp in accordance with the criteria handed down to us.
4 Q. For instance, the people who were brought from Prijedor, Kljuc,
5 and Sanski Most by the civilian police and placed in the POW camp, would
6 it be necessary, before you arrived at some operative information through
7 processing these people, to obtain also the opinion of civilian police
8 stations if perhaps they had some other operative information about the
9 persons who had been placed in the POW camp?
10 A. We insisted on that from the very moment the camp was opened, it
11 would have been very helpful to us; however, some of these structures
12 completely ignored us. And once they delivered these prisoners to the
13 camp, they washed their hands of it completely and left it to us to make
14 an evaluation and do the operative work in the camp itself for any
15 information we needed.
16 Q. Now, the document that I misquoted earlier --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we wait for one second.
18 Looking at this report and this list of 41 persons,
19 Mr. Radinkovic, do I have to understand that this being pursuant to the
20 order, that these are the civilian prisoners listed here?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this time distance I cannot say
22 on the basis of the names, but I assume that for the most part it is
23 precisely those people that we assumed were not dangerous and were
24 civilians and that they should leave as soon as possible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you were instructed to keep the
1 military prisoners, isn't it, so therefore I'm wondering whether this
2 list would contain any military prisoners?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just said that I assume that
4 it would be civilians primarily. Maybe there are some military men here
5 too. It's not in the description. But anyway, if it is stated that way,
6 I mean then it refers to that part of the order that we should primarily
7 be sending civilians. So that would be it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Again, another -- still in all the documents,
9 including this order and your explanation as well, it turns out again and
10 again that in a camp for prisoners of war you're detaining civilians.
11 Here again who should be released or not, isn't it true that if you are a
12 civilian, that you shouldn't be in a camp for prisoners of war,
13 especially not if it has been established that you are a civilian?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how much you followed
15 my introductory remarks. Civilians were brought to us, even minors. We
16 didn't ask for them, they were brought there. And upon entering the camp
17 they became POWs. That is how they were registered and then the ICRC
18 accepted that, and then of course there were civilians, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, you told us that you could not receive
20 dead persons. You could receive minors?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they were on the list, we had to
22 take them in; unfortunately, that's the way it was.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You referred so many times to the Geneva
24 Conventions. First of all, do you know which of the Geneva Conventions
25 deals with prisoners of war?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How could I know just now
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then how are prisoners of war defined in the
4 Geneva Conventions? Is it if they are offered to me, irrespective of
5 health, age, et cetera, and if I put them on the list, they are prisoners
6 of war? Is that the situation in the Geneva Conventions? Or is it --
7 are the regulations different?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, we did not make the lists
9 when people were brought into the camp. These were still people. Now,
10 were they civilians, were they military? These are the rules of -- these
11 are actually the lists that were made by the civilian structures. And
12 then there were people who were minors, there were people who were of
13 age, there were people who were ill, there were military conscripts, and
14 there were even those who had committed crimes and all of that, they were
15 brought to us. However, when entering the camp they were registered as
16 POWs. That's the rule that we had.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is it -- of course I'm now questioning
18 whether these are the rules of the Geneva Conventions on which you relied
19 so heavily that you treated everyone in accordance with the Geneva
20 Conventions, whereas apparently you have your own concept of what a
21 prisoner of war is.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asserted and I continue to assert
23 that these -- I mean, well, the security of the camp. We - how do I put
24 this? - we made a superhuman effort that it be 100 per cent application
25 of the Geneva Conventions --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on our part -- I repeat, on our
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. The Geneva Conventions say
5 that you may detain prisoners of war. But to detain civilians who had
6 not taken part in any way in war efforts, civilians of all ages, would
7 you agree with me that if they do not fall within the scope of prisoners
8 of war of the Geneva Conventions, that you did not make a hundred
9 per cent effort but that you rather defined yourself what you considered
10 to be prisoners of war and then treated them as prisoners of war without
11 having any knowledge or even it be established that they never took up
12 arms, that they were just civilians, sometimes very young ones, sometimes
13 very old ones? Would you agree that you have created your own
14 Geneva Conventions rather than to follow the Geneva Conventions as they
15 are adopted in 1949?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry that you interpret it
17 that way. We, our team, had we conducted the selection process outside
18 the camp in terms of who would be brought to the camp, it would have been
19 quite different, but this was done by the civilian, the military,
20 whoever, they compiled these lists and they brought in a certain number
21 of persons to us. We were not the ones -- actually, later on we made our
22 assessments and through our own work we proved what we proved, as can be
23 seen from documents, that there were people who were underage, people who
24 were ill, and everything else that you've already mentioned. So it's not
25 that we imposed any rules of our own. We really made an effort to work
1 within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions, everything we could do
2 in that situation under these circumstances. The people who were brought
3 to us were brought to us the way they were brought to us. And the people
4 who were brought in, they didn't wear uniforms. How could we know?
5 There were no accompanying documents. It is through our own work that we
6 came to the conclusion that things were the way they were and that people
7 were who they were. Well, that's the way it was.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you those questions because you said several
9 times that you studied the Geneva Conventions. That was the basis for
10 asking you these questions.
11 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, briefly.
13 Q. You - when I say "you," I mean the administration of the POW
14 camp - before you carry out security intelligence checks, before you
15 interview people, before you carry out a triage, can you know at any
16 point in time who was a POW and who was brought there as a civilian and
17 presented to you as somebody who should be checked and treated as a POW?
18 A. We had such cases as well that certain units down the chain of
19 command, before bringing in POWs they would mention the names and the
20 places of arrest and so on and so forth, so that is to say that that kind
21 of thing did happen but that was, say, 5 per cent -- well, to be very
22 literal about all of this. On the basis of lists, that's how it worked
23 for the most part. They would bring a list to that location and the
24 names would be read out. In 95 per cent of all cases we had no
25 information as to who it was that was coming in.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. I beg your pardon, I mean what structure of prisoners was being
3 brought in.
4 Q. Abiding by the definition of a POW, once you've carried out your
5 checks did you say: In our view, this is a POW, and in our view this
6 other person was brought here on wrong premises and is not a POW?
7 A. Certainly. And again I have to say that a great many people who
8 were brought there, had there not been for these winds of war, they
9 wouldn't have come to a POW camp in the first place. But after all, this
10 was an umbrella to prevent their further suffering.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the last
13 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear the last sentence.
14 Mr. Stojanovic, in my questioning it turned out that there was
15 some -- a possible problem with what the definition of what a prisoner of
16 war is. Now, you put the question to the witness: Abiding by the
17 definition of a prisoner of war ...
18 Could you exactly tell the witness and tell me what you consider
19 the definition of a prisoner of war, from where do you take that, what is
20 it? Because you're referring to the definition, which apparently there
21 was some dispute about it. Could you tell us what you had in mind
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I interpret
24 the concept of a prisoner of war, I believe that a prisoner of war is a
25 person who, as a member of an enemy army, at one point in time during
1 operations is taken prisoner or has surrendered. And under this
2 definition I include persons who joined the units of the enemy army at --
3 at a given point in time were taken prisoner or surrendered to the other
4 warring party.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If that's how the witness understood it as well,
6 then we could ask the witness whether his answer stands or whether he
7 would like to make any changes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In which sense would I change this,
9 the definition of a prisoner of war. Quite simply, abiding by the order
10 issued when the camp was established, point 1 said that from the moment a
11 person was brought in or handed over by a particular organ legitimately
12 becomes a POW. That meant full stop for us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it to that.
14 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was told, Your Honour, that
16 the last sentence of the witness's previous answer was not recorded in
17 the transcript so I'm going to repeat that question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps we ask the witness to repeat the last
19 part of his answer, that's the part that is missing.
20 Witness, I'm asking you now to tell us what you said and which
21 was not recorded. You said:
22 "But after all, this was an umbrella to prevent their further
24 What did you say after that? I'm not asking you to say anything
25 new but just to repeat what you then said.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said -- well, this is a literal
2 statement, umbrella, because that meant that they could certainly stay
3 alive in that area as verified. No one could touch them or do anything
4 bad to them. That was the sense of what I said when I said "umbrella,"
5 they were protected up until they left.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you'd say whether brought in as a prisoner of
7 war or not, it was good for them to be there because they were protected.
8 Is that ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P3885, please, could we have
12 that in e-court.
13 JUDGE ORIE: A document under seal, therefore not to be shown to
14 the public. Can we deal with it in open session, Mr. Stojanovic, or
15 should we turn into private session?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that would
17 be possible, but out of caution I would suggest that we move into private
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 31830 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Ms. Edgerton, any further questions?
14 MS. EDGERTON: No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Radinkovic, this concludes your testimony
16 in this court. I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way
17 to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to
18 you, put to you by the Defence, by the Prosecution, by the Bench. I wish
19 you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just inform
23 you that I have been informed that my colleague Mr. Lukic would be here
24 after 1.30, that is to say, after the break. So I believe that he will
25 be here and ready to answer all the questions you may have.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we take the break now and that we
2 resume at 1.30 so that we can first deal with this matter which is of
3 some urgency.
4 We will take a break and we will resume at 1.30.
5 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, thank you for coming to the courtroom.
8 The Chamber is considering your request to allow Mr. Sasa Lukic to
9 examine witnesses, and in that context we have a few questions for you.
10 First of all, Mr. Sasa Lukic, is he on the list, is he eligible
11 for being assigned as counsel as far as you're aware of?
12 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that he is on 45 list.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then if he's not, then of course we would
14 have to look at -- because other team members who are on the Rule 55 list
15 of course -- 45 list, I'm sorry, of course a lot of checks have been done
16 in respect to them. And if Mr. Sasa Lukic is not on that list, I would
17 like to know a few more things -- the Chamber would like to know a few
18 more things.
19 First of all, is he fully qualified to act as counsel in his home
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, he is, Your Honour, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since when?
23 MR. LUKIC: I have CVs here. We tried to send it to you and to
24 your staff.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: So I tried to print it because it couldn't pass
2 through --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's too heavy, that CV to -- no, no, no, I'm
4 just kidding.
5 MR. LUKIC: It couldn't pass -- yeah. If you don't mind, I would
6 kindly ask the usher to just distribute and then it may be easier to
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's easier to put further questions to you. I must
9 say, I've got no idea, Mr. Lukic, about admission to the bar in -- I take
10 it in Serbia.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Whether -- what the requirements are, whether it's
13 just a matter of exams or whether there is any traineeship which you
14 would need to --
15 MR. LUKIC: Well, to be self-employed there is a special exam,
16 but to work for another lawyer as he did previously --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: -- you have to pass bar exam.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's --
20 MR. LUKIC: So he passed both, bar exam at 2012 and defence law
21 exam at 2013.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I even see that he's a fast learner. I would
23 wish that I would say that for myself, Mr. Lukic, but I see as far as I
24 understand there's no language problem. I go from bottom up. Experience
25 in criminal cases since --
1 MR. LUKIC: 9.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- 2009. Is that before Serbian courts or is that
3 before the ICTY?
4 MR. LUKIC: No, he worked only as a case manager on Beara team --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: -- in 2007, but as a lawyer he practiced only in
7 Serbia --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- in front of the courts.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now you say experience in criminal law cases since
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: He took his bar exam in 2012. Could you tell us
14 what the experience in criminal law cases were between 2009 and 2012?
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. He had a lot, actually, because
16 you can defend anybody if the sentence -- prescribed sentence is less
17 than five years.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. So you don't even need to be formally
19 admitted to the bar if you --
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: As a law trainee you can do that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Self-employed since June 2013. Yes, he
24 worked in your law firm I see --
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. And although bearing the same last
1 name, we are not blood related.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You are not --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put another question.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last entry is an internship in 2007 at the
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where was that --
9 MR. LUKIC: For Beara, Beara Defence.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the Defence. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then he has worked in your law firm, he is acting as
12 counsel, whether fully qualified or for the smaller cases. Do you have
13 any information about any possibly disciplinary measures --
14 MR. LUKIC: No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- taken?
16 MR. LUKIC: I can vouch for him that he does not have any
17 disciplinary cases.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any disciplinary cases against him.
19 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you that at least at any moment in time he
20 has at least 200 active cases plus new cases, so he's really --
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's pretty scary, especially if you also have to
22 deal with cases here then.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just go through -- yes. Is the only reason
25 why he's not on the Rule 45 list that the seven years do not -- the seven
1 years of relevant experience do not apply?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now -- yes, and that would take some time because
4 he -- even if you would take the traineeship time into consideration then
5 it starts only in 2009 which would take him to --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- 2016 before he has the seven years.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you thought about -- is he a member of the ADC?
10 He can't be, I take it, if -- well --
11 MR. LUKIC: He can be member of ADC although not on a 45 rule
12 list --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you have to be admitted to the
14 practice --
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- which he is, competent in criminal --
17 international criminal law without any years requirement -- no, it's also
18 seven years required for membership of the -- full membership of the --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes. He could be associate [overlapping speakers] --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Associate, yes. Not a full member yet.
21 Now perhaps you could remind me, associate members are also
22 subject to the disciplinary system if anything would go wrong? Have you
23 verified that?
24 MR. LUKIC: I --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just -- I don't have it on the top of my head.
1 MR. LUKIC: I've never -- I've never heard that anybody who is
2 not a full member who does not practice has any procedure against him
3 since --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I do understand that, but I don't know how
5 the rules are. If you're an associate member and, for example, if you're
6 not assigned as counsel but if you are acting more or less as counsel
7 by -- through examining witnesses, whether you'd be subject to the --
8 certainly I take it to the rules of the ADC but whether you're also
9 subject to the system of disciplinary procedure. We'd just like to
10 know --
11 MR. LUKIC: I should check, but probably yes. Whoever
12 practices --
13 JUDGE ORIE: You know what we say to witnesses if they say
15 MR. LUKIC: Probably, yeah, but I cannot --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I take it that you'll verify that and we
17 might look into the rules as well.
18 Yes, well, the last requirement for full membership is, apart
19 from disciplinary proceedings, that the person involved is not found
20 guilty in relevant criminal proceedings against him or her. That's -- I
21 mean, I'm just going through the list.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, you cannot enroll into bar if there is active
23 proceeding against you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But this is also about proceedings that have been
25 resulted in a conviction. Would that also be a bar to be admitted to the
2 MR. LUKIC: It depends.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It depends.
4 MR. LUKIC: If it's -- if the time passes, then it can be
5 annulled; but if it's something fresh, of course.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay --
7 MR. LUKIC: Only for the lighter crimes it can be annulled, not
8 for grave crimes --
9 JUDGE ORIE: If time passes --
10 MR. LUKIC: But he's too young --
11 JUDGE ORIE: To be born in 1981, there's not much time yet to
12 have passed since any possible convictions. Again, I'm not suggesting
13 anything, but I'm just going through the list of what is required if you
14 would become a member of the ADC and what the consequences are. Then ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We have no further questions, but we'd like to hear
17 the position of the Prosecution on allowing Mr. Sasa Lukic to examine
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I'd like to see the resume, though I don't
20 think we have any significant problems. The only issue that I can think
21 of is as a member of the Beara Defence team, I think it's always safer if
22 on issues of conflict of interest that the -- General Mladic should waive
23 a conflict if there could be one. As we can imagine a conflict between
24 Colonel Beara and General Mladic.
25 MR. LUKIC: But Mr. Lukic did not deal with anything substantial.
1 He was a case manager on that case. He was not a legal assistant at that
2 time, still being a student.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Don't you think that a case manager would have --
4 may have knowledge or may have -- which he could either use or not use in
5 another case. I mean, even if you're not involved in substance, your
6 privileged knowledge might cause a problem already.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, we can ask Mr. Mladic, but I don't think that
8 there could be anything.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To be on the safe side that would be preferable.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, waivers are
13 certainly important, if I look at the rules of the code of conduct, but
14 are not the final answer to -- so therefore it's not just a matter if I
15 have a waiver then everything is okay. Then that should be borne well in
16 mind. I remember the rules on that, I think it was in 33 or 35, I
17 don't -- forgive me if I'm -- do not have them all --
18 MR. LUKIC: Only if to be fully informed, Your Honours and my
19 learned friend, Mr. Sasa Lukic is on our team already.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: So if there was any conflict of interest --
22 JUDGE ORIE: You should have verified it already.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's for sure, so that -- you're pointing at
25 something that should have been considered already in the past, but it's
1 better to do it now rather than to forget to do it at all. So if you
2 would carefully look at the rules covering conflict of interest -- I
3 think it's not 33 or 35, it's somewhere in the 11 or something like that.
4 It's the code of conduct which deals extensively with how to deal with a
5 conflict of interest if it arises after you have already assisted one
6 client. That's one. And the other matter still to be verified was what
7 exactly? It slipped -- yes, the disciplinary -- the applicability of
8 disciplinary --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, my colleague Ivetic checked. Disciplinary
10 proceeding can be instigated only against a full member of the ADC --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and not to associate members.
12 MR. LUKIC: Not to associate members.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently assuming that associate members are not
14 acting, and of course what we are doing here is to make an exception and
15 would -- we would then allow him to act.
16 This information, Mr. McCloskey, does that change anything in
17 your position?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Finally, of course, I think the Chamber
20 has also some powers in this respect to -- as far as the right of
21 audience is concerned, but of course that is not the same as disciplinary
22 measures. I think we have received all the information we needed. We'll
23 let you know what our decision is.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And we will do it quickly.
1 Then is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
2 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. That would be
3 Mr. Milenko Jevdjevic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for him, Your Honours, I do have one
6 procedural issue. I had identified some additional schematics with the
7 witness during proofing and had advised the Prosecution and the Chambers
8 of those, but two of those actually are not on our Rule 65 ter list.
9 They are numbers 1D05361 and 1D05362, so I think I would formally need to
10 ask leave to add those to the Rule 65 ter list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against adding them to the list,
12 which of course is not a decision on admission yet?
13 MS. HASAN: Good afternoon. No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then leave is granted to add 1D05361 and 1D05362 to
15 the 65 ter exhibit list.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, in your proofing note you are
17 referring to a third document, what about that?
18 MR. IVETIC: The third document is on the Prosecution's 65 ter
19 list and therefore does not need to be added. That would be 31890.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I learn every day. Thank you.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Jevdjevic. Before you give
23 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that
24 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
25 text is now handed out to you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, greetings to
2 everybody in the courtroom. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: MILENKO JEVDJEVIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Mr. Jevdjevic, one line was
7 already sufficient to make me aware that you are very quick speaker.
8 Could you please slow down when talking, otherwise the interpreters will
9 be unable to interpret for us what you say.
10 Mr. Jevdjevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find
11 Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
12 Mr. Mladic.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Good day, sir. Could I ask you to please state your full name
17 for the record.
18 A. My name is Milenko Jevdjevic.
19 Q. And, sir, could you first tell us where and when you were born?
20 A. I was born on 11 December 1963 in Rogatica.
21 Q. And where is it that you now reside, sir?
22 A. I now live in Banja Luka.
23 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about your educational
24 background, but I'd like you to please focus on just your military
25 schooling and I'd ask you to give us a brief resume of the military
1 educational institutions that you completed.
2 A. In terms of military schooling, I completed the military high
3 school in 1982, then the military academy for ground forces,
4 specialisation signals in 1986, and the General Staff school of the Army
5 of Yugoslavia in 1999 [as interpreted].
6 Q. And now I'd like to ask you about your education and training
7 relative to radio relay communications in the army. Could you please
8 tell us what specific training you underwent in this field?
9 A. As part of the regular schooling at the military academy, as part
10 of the regular subjects, we studied all radio relay devices and systems
11 that the army had at its disposal at the time.
12 Q. And did you have occasion to perform duties relating to
13 communications through radio relay devices during your career?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At what levels did you perform such duties during your career?
16 A. As an officer serving in the branch of communications I was first
17 commander of the signals platoon, then commander of the signals company,
18 then commander of the signals battalion, and chief of communications in
19 the corps.
20 Q. And now I would like to ask you about electronic surveillance or
21 radio intercept operators. What schooling or training was required in
22 the JNA for those type of officers?
23 A. In the course of my schooling and later when I served in the
24 units of the Yugoslav People's Army and the Army of Republika Srpska, we
25 underwent all the training necessary for us to successfully protect
1 information passed on through communications equipment.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Excuse me for interrupting for one question.
3 You said in the previous answer you were chief of the
4 communications in the corps. Which corps are you referring to,
5 Mr. Jevdjevic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 5th Corps of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska established in 1997. That means 18 to 24 months after
8 the war.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Now, you've detailed for us the training that a radio relay
12 communications or signals officer would have gone through and the
13 education that you went through. I'd like to ask you about an
14 electronic -- counter warfare -- counter-electronics warfare officer in
15 the JNA, what type of training would that individual have to go through
16 to attain that position?
17 A. Officers and NCOs and soldiers involved in counter-electronic
18 warfare or radio relay reconnaissance were also supposed to go regular
19 military schools and study these subjects and undergo training in units
20 for counter-electronic warfare and radio reconnaissance.
21 Q. And in relation to the JNA system, how long did that training
22 last for someone to be qualified to serve in a post as a
23 counter-electronic warfare officer?
24 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, there was a whole arm of
25 the service for radio reconnaissance and counter-electronic operations.
1 The officers who worked in such units went through the same training as
2 I, just as the others who were in armoured units and other units. In the
3 regular schooling there was a whole course dedicated to these subjects.
4 In counter-electronic warfare units, soldiers who came to do their
5 regular military service underwent a six-month training in order to be
6 able to perform their duties properly.
7 Q. Now I'd like to return to yourself again and your career. What
8 ranks did you hold in the army during the course of your career?
9 A. My first rank as an officer after completing the military academy
10 was second lieutenant, and I finished my military career in the rank of
12 Q. When did your professional service in the military end?
13 A. 2001.
14 Q. Sir, what occupation, if any, did you pursue after your military
15 service ended?
16 A. After completing my military service I found a job in Telekom
17 Srpska company, where I continue working.
18 Q. And can you tell us what job or duties you have within the
19 Telekom of Republika Srpska, what job or duties you had or now have?
20 A. I work on maintaining telecommunications systems and also
21 supervise telecommunication services.
22 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to ask you to tell us where was your first
23 military service post upon completion of the military academies that
24 you've listed for us?
25 A. After finishing the military academy I was appointed platoon
1 commander of a communications platoon in the Uzice garrison.
2 Q. Okay. And what were the dates of deployment at that position?
3 A. I remained in that position for two years, and I was appointed
4 company commander of a telecommunications company, also in Uzice.
5 Q. Okay. As a point of clarification, the transcript records you
6 saying you were appointed a commander of a telecommunications company in
7 Uzice. Are there telecommunications companies in the army or is that
8 a --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Signals.
10 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. The interpreters have corrected that.
11 Q. Now, did you eventually come to join the Army of
12 Republika Srpska?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us what units in the VRS you were assigned to and
15 during what time-period?
16 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska I was appointed commander of the
17 signals battalion in the Drina Corps. And after the end of the war or
18 just before the war ended, I also carried out the duties of commander of
19 the Birac Infantry Brigade in Sekovici, then chief of communications of
20 the 5th Corps, then commander of the Visegrad Infantry Brigade in
21 Visegrad, and I completed my military career as assistant commander of
22 the 5th Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska for morale, information,
23 legal, and religious affairs.
24 Q. Could you identify for us when it was that you joined the Army of
25 Republika Srpska and in what position and then the date when you would
1 have been appointed commander of the signals battalion in the
2 Drina Corps?
3 A. I joined the Army of Republika Srpska in the month of May 1992.
4 I was appointed battalion commander of the signals battalion immediately
5 after the establishment of the Drina Corps in November 1992.
6 Q. And just to complete the picture, then, from May to November 1992
7 where were you?
8 A. Within a shorter period of time I carried out duties in
9 Bosanska Krupa and the communications regiment of the Main Staff, the
10 67th Regiment of the Main Staff.
11 Q. Okay, sir, now I would like to focus on the time-period you were
12 komandant of the communications battalion in the Drina Corps. Could you
13 tell us what your duties were at that post?
14 A. My duties were to carry out communications plan of the
15 Drina Corps towards the superior command, that is to say, the Main Staff,
16 and also to subordinate units, that is to say, brigades of the
17 Drina Corps.
18 Q. And how many other personnel were subordinated to you within the
19 communications battalion of the Drina Corps?
20 A. In the communications battalion during war time I had an average
21 of 40 to 60 men. Out of them, about 20 were officers and among them
22 there were about ten officers who had completed military schools for
23 communication before the war.
24 Q. And in relation to the remaining members of your battalion, what
25 military training had they had in relation to signals or communications?
1 A. Before coming to the battalion, a number of soldiers received
2 training in the regiment of the Main Staff and then were transferred to
3 subordinate units. So a number of soldiers, young soldiers, trained
4 signalsmen came to my signals battalion. A number of soldiers after
5 mobilisation were trained by us at our battalion.
6 Q. Did you have anyone working in the communications battalion of
7 the Drina Corps as a radio relay operator that lacked either of the
8 trainings that you have identified, who had not gone through one of the
9 trainings that you have identified?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could you describe for us what is the key difference between a
12 radio device on the one hand and a radio relay device on the other hand?
13 A. A key difference is that in essence one can say that with radio
14 devices one establishes radio communication, whereas with radio relay
15 equipment, radio relay communication is established. Basically, radio
16 relay communication is directed radio communication. Most radio devices
17 have antennae that radiate signals in all directions equally; whereas in
18 the case of radio relay equipment, the force of the antenna is aimed only
19 in a particular direction and that is how the signal becomes stronger and
20 also protection of these electromagnetic waves and the communication
21 involved is enhanced. One of the main differences is that radio relay
22 communication, because of all of these things that I've already
23 explained, can be considered to be far more protected and reliable than
24 mere radio communication.
25 Q. What radio relay devices did you have at your disposal at the
1 Drina Corps for transmittal of signal with either subordinate units or
2 superior units?
3 A. We had three types of radio relay equipment: Radio relay
4 equipment that was marked FM-200, then marked RU-800, and finally RRU-1.
5 Q. Okay. And in relation to each of those radio relay devices you
6 have listed, how would you compare or describe their age and technology
8 A. FM-200 was the device that was about 15 or 20 years old at the
9 time. The RRU-1 in that period of time was the most recent one, it was
10 about ten years ago, whereas the RU-800 in that period of the war was
11 already over 40 years old.
12 Q. Do you recall the operating frequency range of both the RRU-800
13 and the RRU-1 radio relay devices?
14 A. RU-800 and FM-200 operated from 610 to 960 megahertz, and RRU-1
15 operates within a range from 235 to 280 megahertz.
16 Q. And what was the effective range of transmission of signal for
17 these radio relay devices?
18 A. In the rules and regulations, FM-200 and RU-800 have a range of
19 up to 50 kilometres, whereas RRU-1 has a range of up to 30 kilometres.
20 Q. Are there any --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic --
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- just to avoid any confusion, in line 11 of the
24 current page you are recorded as having said RRU-800. I think you
25 referred to RU-800, only one R, is that correct, because --
1 MR. IVETIC: I should have referred to two R's, it's radio relay
2 unit, so it's really RRU-800.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the answer relates to RU-800.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness consistently used RU-800 and RRU-1.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's the reason why I wanted to clarify --
6 MR. IVETIC: That's not what I heard but we can clarify with the
8 Q. Sir, you're recorded as having referred to a radio relay device
9 as an RU-800. Is that in fact how you referred to that radio relay
11 A. RRU-800 is its proper name. Perhaps I've been speaking too fast.
12 RRU-800. And for the transcript, RRU-1 works from 235 to 270 megahertz.
13 That's what I said, not 280.
14 Q. And if we get one more question in before the break, are there
15 any atmospheric or terrestrial factors which can affect the transmittal
16 of the electromagnetic signal from one RRU device to another RRU device?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you briefly describe some of them?
19 A. There is a series of factors that affect the transmittal of
20 electromagnetic waves and signals of radio relay equipment. It is
21 meteorological conditions as well. So, for example, if it's raining or
22 snowing, then that has a negative effect on the transmittal of
23 electromagnetic waves. Also, the afforestation of the ground can have an
24 effect on electromagnetic waves. Then also the quality of the land, the
25 soil, if there is a high metal content, then that kind of soil sometimes
1 prevents the propagation of such waves. Of course, the main barrier
2 would be a physical barrier.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the clock, but I'm at
4 the same time seeking one tiny little matter to be clarified.
5 Witness, you said:
6 "In the rules and regulations FM-200 and" then I take it RRU-800
7 "have a range of up to 50 kilometres, whereas RRU-1 has a range of up to
8 30 kilometres."
9 Now, from my understanding, rules and regulations do not finally
10 determine what the range is. Do I have to understand this, that the
11 rules and regulations require that FM-200 and RRU-800 should perform at
12 least well on the range of up to 50 kilometres, that is to 50 kilometres;
13 and RRU should perform well at a distance of 30 kilometres? Is that how
14 I have to understand it because --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the boundary for the
16 use of the signal.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and what actually happened, how far the signal
18 travels is -- can be different, perhaps even worse or even better than
19 what the rules require them to do, how to perform at a certain distance?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Then, Mr. Ivetic, we'll adjourn for the day.
23 And for you as well, Mr. Jevdjevic, we'll adjourn for the day and
24 we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same
25 courtroom. But I first want to instruct you that you should not speak or
1 communicate -- well, that is your profession, isn't it,
2 communication - not communicate in whatever way, through whatever signals
3 or whatever waves, with whomever about your testimony, whether that is
4 testimony given today or whether that is testimony still to be given
5 tomorrow or perhaps even the day after tomorrow. If you understood this
6 well, you may follow the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we will adjourn tomorrow,
9 Wednesday, the 18th of February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
10 courtroom, I.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
13 February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.