Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31853

 1                           Wednesday, 18 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a

12     preliminary matter.

13             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour, and I think we need to

14     go into private session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 31854

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 8   (redacted)

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Jevdjevic.  Before we continue,

15     I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

16     that you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony.

17     Mr. Ivetic will now continue his examination.

18             Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           WITNESS:  MILENKO JEVDJEVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, sir.

24        A.   Good morning to all.

25        Q.   Now I want to spend some time talking about the situation in the

Page 31855

 1     area of responsibility of the Drina Corps during the time-period of 1993

 2     to 1994.  First of all, what knowledge do you have of the establishment

 3     of the so-called safe areas in the Drina Corps's area of responsibility?

 4        A.   During the war in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps,

 5     three safe areas were established:  Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde.

 6        Q.   Prior to the establishment of these safe areas, what kind of

 7     enemy forces had been operating in these same areas?

 8        A.   In the eastern part of the front line of the Drina Corps there

 9     was the 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina with its command

10     in Srebrenica.  In the broader area of Gorazde there was also a formation

11     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its rank was that of a division.

12        Q.   Prior to the enactment of the safe areas, what had been going on

13     between those forces and your own?

14        A.   Before these territories were declared safe areas, there was

15     combat between the Army of Republika Srpska and these mentioned forces of

16     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the broader area of Podrinje.

17        Q.   What instructions did the Drina Corps receive from its commander

18     upon the enactment of these aforementioned safe areas?

19        A.   Could you please repeat that question.

20        Q.   What instructions did the Drina Corps receive from its commander

21     upon enactment of the safe areas, how was the corps supposed to behave or

22     implement anything on its side?

23        A.   The units of the Drina Corps, after the establishment of these

24     safe areas, were given strict orders to stop at the lines attained

25     because certain negotiations were to follow, the demilitarisation of

Page 31856

 1     these safe areas, or rather, the disarming and demilitarisation of these

 2     areas.

 3        Q.   Now, what was your observation of how the enemy side implemented

 4     these negotiations on demilitarisation of the safe areas?

 5        A.   I personally, as officer for the organisation of communications,

 6     took part in these operations and I was personally at the forward command

 7     post when an order arrived from the commander of the Drina Corps, stating

 8     that all further activities should be halted and that these areas would

 9     be demilitarised.  However, after that date, all the time, the Army of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina in Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde showed that

11     demilitarisation had not been carried out at all and their military

12     activities had actually continued.

13        Q.   What was the Drina Corps's assessment of the number of enemy

14     troops based within the safe areas - and I'm now just focusing on the

15     safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa?

16        A.   The intelligence that the Drina Corps had at the time indicated

17     that in that area the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had armed forces that

18     were equivalent to a division consisting of five brigades with roughly

19     15 -- 12- to 15.000 soldiers.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a clarification, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Ivetic.

21             12- to 15.000 in the brigade or in the whole division?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The entire division that consisted

23     of five brigades.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   And you said a few moments ago, sir, that the military activities

Page 31857

 1     of those armed forces within the safe areas continued.  How frequent were

 2     those military activities launched from within the safe areas of

 3     Srebrenica and Zepa?

 4        A.   First of all, the forces of the 28th Division, according to

 5     evident information received through intelligence and reconnaissance,

 6     they remained in their positions with weapons directly aimed at the

 7     positions of the Army of Republika Srpska; however, what was most

 8     characteristic was the communication that existed between their enclaves,

 9     that is to say, two safe areas with smaller or larger armed groups.  They

10     communicated between Srebrenica along the route towards Tuzla and this

11     other one towards Kladanj, that is to say, the central part of their

12     armed forces through the territory that was controlled by the Army of

13     Republika Srpska.  Also, they communicated between two enclaves,

14     Srebrenica and Zepa.  This communication for the most part was concealed

15     because of their own interests, because of their intentions.  However,

16     many times during these communications they carried out ambushes and

17     sabotage activities that resulted in the killing of our soldiers and

18     civilians in the areas through which they communicated.

19        Q.   Now, sir, you talked about information received through

20     intelligence and reconnaissance.  Do you yourself have any personal

21     knowledge and experience in relation to these types of activities of the

22     armed forces from within the safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa?

23        A.   I personally had several such experiences because the Drina Corps

24     very often because of that kind of situation organised searches of the

25     terrain along the routes where these sabotage groups communicated, and I

Page 31858

 1     was invariably the communications officer in charge of these activities.

 2     And several times I took part in these activities.  As a matter of fact,

 3     during the war, sometime in 1995, the Drina Corps decided to deal with

 4     Stublic, a particular feature between Srebrenica and Zepa, namely, to

 5     place a point of resistance there at company level; and I personally went

 6     there to secure the communications for these soldiers.  Their exclusive

 7     task was to prevent the movement of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     between Srebrenica and Zepa.

 9             On that day when I was on that mission, it was just by chance

10     that I managed to avoid an ambush because the vehicle behind mine was

11     ambushed and soldiers of the Milici Brigade were killed and wounded in

12     that situation.

13        Q.   Okay.  What did the Drina Corps do in relation to these attacks

14     and incursions?  Did anyone contact the United Nations or UNPROFOR?

15        A.   I remember very well that this situation was being resolved in a

16     diplomatic way or at least that was the attempt that was made because

17     there were members of the UN in the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa and

18     they were supposed to ensure demilitarisation and - how do I put

19     this? - to prevent any kind of combat activity coming from the enclave.

20     From that point of view, the activities of the Drina Corps and the

21     political structures of Republika Srpska were aimed at trying to stop

22     this combat activity coming from the enclaves through a diplomatic effort

23     through UNPROFOR, that they rein them in, that they stop the activity of

24     these sabotage groups from the enclaves and their entry into our

25     territory.

Page 31859

 1        Q.   I'd now like to look at 65 ter 1D2980 in e-court with you.

 2             Sir, this is dated the 5th of April, 1994, from the command of

 3     the Drina Corps and is an order for raising combat-readiness to the

 4     highest level.  And according to the first paragraph in both versions, it

 5     says:

 6             "According to highly probable information at our disposal, it is

 7     possible that enemy forces will carry out a general attack from the

 8     north-west.  We are unable to specify exactly the axis of the main strike

 9     aimed at linking up with the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, and it is

10     also possible and probable that enemy forces from the enclaves of

11     Srebrenica and Zepa will attack our forces in order to relieve their

12     forces at the front."

13             First of all, do you recall the situation that is reflected in

14     this order?

15        A.   Yes.  For us, officers of the Drina Corps, this was a generally

16     known situation concerning the intention of the Army of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina to link-up their main forces in that part of the front

18     line, specifically their 2nd Corps in Tuzla, with the enclaves,

19     Srebrenica and Zepa.  This offensive, or rather, this operation would be

20     carried out through simultaneous attacks by their main forces in Tuzla,

21     the 2nd Tuzla Corps, that is, and an attack by the 28th Division from

22     Srebrenica and Zepa.  That is something that the Drina Corps that was in

23     that area did know and its main task was to try to prevent that.

24        Q.   And did an attack of this nature actually occur at some point in

25     time subsequent to April 1994?

Page 31860

 1        A.   These attacks were permanent; however, to the best of my

 2     knowledge, none of them resulted in such strength that would result in

 3     the linking up of the enclaves with the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.  However, the

 4     Drina Corps was constantly encumbered by these activities and this combat

 5     in the rear of its territory, if I can put it that way, which made it

 6     less possible for them to do their fighting at their main front, the

 7     2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, you've described for us the truth -- troop strengths of

 9     the forces from within the enclaves.  What about these enemy forces

10     situated in the north-west, did the Drina Corps have an assessment as to

11     the troop strength of those forces?

12        A.   I know certainly that in the western area the forces of Bosnia

13     and Herzegovina were far more numerous.  There is -- their command of the

14     28th Division was in Tuzla, because the capacity of that area, speaking

15     in demographic terms, is very high; but as for specific information about

16     the troop strength of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina there, I do not

17     know.

18        Q.   Now I want to look at item number 4 in this order and here it

19     talks about some type of encryption -- standard TKT encryption.  Could

20     you explain for us what encryption protection is being discussed herein?

21        A.   This is one of the usual orders, if I can put it that way,

22     mentioned in warfare as such; namely, that all activities -- not only in

23     war but also in peace time but particularly in war time, in order to

24     protect the data from anyone who may find them to be of interest, that

25     protection of all communications should be done -- should be carried out

Page 31861

 1     by protecting this information.  In this specific case it has to do with

 2     general documents of encryption.  This TKT abbreviation means secret

 3     command of troops.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification.

 5             A minute ago you told us that the command of the 28th Division

 6     was in Srebrenica and just a few -- a short while ago you told us that

 7     their command was in Tuzla.  Now, do you have an explanation as to why

 8     you first referred to Srebrenica and now refer to Tuzla as the location

 9     of the command?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 28th Division with its command

11     in Srebrenica was directly subordinated to the command of the 2nd Corps

12     in Tuzla; that is to say, the superior command of that division is the

13     2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Tuzla.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say the command over the 28th Division was in

15     Tuzla, whereas the command of the 28th Division was in Srebrenica.  Thank

16     you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  At this time we would tender this document, 1D2980,

21     as the next public exhibit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             MS. HASAN:  No objection.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D903, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

Page 31862

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to call up 1D2979 in e-court.

 3        Q.   And, sir, this is dated 6 September 1994 and is again issued on

 4     behalf of the Drina Corps to several units.  First of all, in relation to

 5     the commands that this order is directed, to what formation do they all

 6     belong?

 7        A.   All these commands to which this order is addressed are brigades

 8     of the Drina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Now, in the first paragraph of this order it talks of

10     intelligence that new groups of Muslims from Srebrenica and Zepa were

11     leaving in the direction of Kladanj and Tuzla.  First of all, we've

12     mentioned Tuzla in relation to the forces to the west.  Where is -- where

13     or what was located in Kladanj?

14        A.   In Kladanj, the units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

15     located there as well.  This was territory under the control of the

16     Muslim-Croat Federation.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, just one clarification.  The document

18     says "they were preparing to leave," this is different from what you

19     said, "they were leaving."

20             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise if I misspoke.  Yes, it does say

21     "preparing to leave" in both versions.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Now, sir, what kind of groups are we talking about here, what was

25     the nature of these groups that were believed to be preparing to leave

Page 31863

 1     these two enclaves?

 2        A.   These were sabotage groups from the enclaves of Srebrenica and

 3     Zepa.  They took paths that were well-known to them through uninhabited

 4     areas and through the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps they

 5     moved towards Tuzla and Kladanj.  In the beginning of my testimony today

 6     I said that according to our estimates and according to what was going on

 7     in the field, the main problem that we encountered from these groups were

 8     their ambush and sabotage activities along the road that linked that

 9     eastern part of Republika Srpska to the western part.  They carried out

10     ambushes very often, attacks, with a view to disorganising the territory,

11     keep our troops busy, and force us to mop-up the terrain, which was a

12     pain-staking activity.  And we had to keep our forces on the ready in

13     that part of the area and front.

14        Q.   These sabotage groups that you say the corps encountered, how

15     large would they be in terms of the number of personnel that were within

16     them?

17        A.   According to some information that I personally had in that

18     period and according to intelligence available, those groups varied in

19     size.  Frequently these would be groups of fighters from Srebrenica and

20     Zepa whose families had moved to Tuzla in 1993, so they would desert from

21     their units intending to reunite with their families.  Also frequently

22     those were sabotage groups with the exclusive purpose of carrying out

23     ambush and sabotage actions to destabilise our main route, the main route

24     used by the Drina Corps that was also crucial to the whole of

25     Republika Srpska because that road was taken by civilians, by vehicles,

Page 31864

 1     buses, trucks, all kinds of traffic.  So according to the information I

 2     had at that time, these sabotage groups had a whole range of different

 3     intentions.

 4        Q.   Were such sabotage groups posing a threat to the Drina Corps; and

 5     if so, why?

 6        A.   They posed a permanent and enormous danger to the Drina Corps,

 7     not so much in terms of their troop strength but the outcome of their

 8     activities because not a single unit could feel safe and plan actions in

 9     their main area and on their axis of activities and defence with such a

10     sabotage group hanging over them.  Every commander knows that such

11     sabotage group could be sometimes as large as a brigade, and he cannot

12     divert his main strength to deal with that group and put all his other

13     activities on a back burner.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would tender this document, 1D2979,

15     as the next exhibit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D904, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             Before you move on I would have -- if you have done with the

20     document.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the document you have explained is all

23     about sabotage groups, but the order doesn't refer to sabotage groups at

24     all, it just says groups of -- new groups of Muslims.  It doesn't say

25     anything about sabotage groups or whatever they were consisted -- did you

Page 31865

 1     also have information about other groups leaving, including civilians,

 2     for example, who would leave -- who wished to leave in the direction of

 3     Kladanj and Tuzla or was such information not received?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 1993 when -- with the escort

 5     of UNPROFOR, according to our information, a group of civilians, after

 6     the arrival of General Morillon, moved out of their own accord using

 7     UN vehicles.  It was their own initiative, but I never had information

 8     that at any point in time civilians had gathered and wanted to use the

 9     road between two enclaves.  So this order, as far as I'm concerned,

10     refers exclusively to sabotage groups.  It's written in military

11     language, it's a military order signed by General Zivanovic, and it could

12     only refer to sabotage groups.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether there's any documentary evidence

14     which would support your interpretation, that is, intelligence reports

15     which specifically point at sabotage groups?

16             I'm first asking the witness, Mr. McCloskey.  If you -- unless

17     there's anything wrong with my question.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, it's a perfectly good question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm not seeking compliments, as a matter of

20     fact, but there's no objection to the question.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, and I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to -- the witness to respond to it.

23             Could you answer my question whether you have such -- whether you

24     are aware of the existence of such documentary evidence supporting your

25     interpretation?

Page 31866

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about documents, but I

 2     have personal experience.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers my question.

 4             Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If it would help the Trial Chamber, the

 6     Prosecution does believe there were such groups - you'll recall

 7     Mr. Butler's testimony on this point - and that they were designed to do

 8     much of what this witness is saying they were designed to do.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Now, this brings me to another question which is on my mind

11     already for some time and that is:  To what extent is this a matter in

12     dispute?  We hear now evidence, but -- it's my recollection that, for

13     example, military -- that we heard quite a lot of evidence about

14     28th Division members going out of Srebrenica and doing all kind of -- I

15     remember torching villages, et cetera.  And I -- my recollection tells me

16     that there was not often a fierce cross-examination on that, that it

17     would not have happened.  Therefore, it came to my mind to what extent

18     are we listening to evidence in relation to matters which are not in

19     dispute?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Even more so, much of this was part of the

21     Prosecution's case through Mr. Butler.  Now, we have not said anything

22     thus far because I think forming this as a foundation to get into more

23     areas of dispute is fine as long as we're not taking too much time.  At

24     that point is when -- when you had the specific question I thought it

25     would be good to clear up that that is not an item in dispute.

Page 31867

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As a matter of fact, I was about to ask such a

 2     question, but then these specific answers triggered me to put the

 3     question as I did.

 4             Mr. Ivetic, apparently we are listening to a lot which is not

 5     really in dispute.  Is there any reason to spend time on matters which

 6     are not in dispute?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, we've been introducing documents

 8     to show the progression of matters, and indeed in the documents we've had

 9     specific questions as to the encryption that was discussed in the other

10     documents.  So I believe to show the picture of the progression of events

11     the -- although not in dispute, the specific facts of the same need to be

12     understood.  For instance, here we're talking about groups, that's why I

13     wanted to know what types of groups.  There are other documents, I

14     believe, that talk about groups, and although not in dispute, it has not

15     been said on the record precisely that these documents talking about

16     groups are talking about military groups.  And that's why I wanted to

17     clarify that with the witness, who has knowledge of these things from his

18     time within the Drina Corps.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Matters which are not in dispute, Mr. Ivetic, should

20     take no or hardly any time.  And to know more details about matters which

21     are generally not in dispute is not of great assistance to the Chamber.

22             Again, I leave apart some exceptions here and then.

23             Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to be clear, sabotage groups as has been

25     discussed by the Prosecution and the Defence is not in dispute.  That

Page 31868

 1     this document refers to sabotage groups would be in dispute.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  There we have it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see.

 4             So you do challenge that this document is talking about sabotage

 5     groups or is there --

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe I may be talking about the previous one

 7     where you pointed out that it wasn't talking -- that there was no mention

 8     of sabotage groups.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that is this one.  This is talking about new

10     groups of Muslims.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what my question was focused on.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.  We do challenge that this has to

14     do with sabotage groups, but we don't challenge sabotage groups

15     generally.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but not in this document.  Okay, that has been

17     clarified.  Let's move on.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we can --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'd like to not be able to hear Mr. Mladic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Now, if we can turn to 1D --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I clearly stated.  Mr. Ivetic, could you --

22     apparently --

23             MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Stojanovic is not ... no, no discussions.

25     Then we go back to the little pieces of paper.

Page 31869

 1             Mr. Ivetic, if Mr. Mladic just ignores two, three times that we

 2     had a rather liberal regime on consultations, then next time we might be

 3     in a position that we have to go back to the little notes written down

 4     for communication.  I think it's not necessary, but it depends on

 5     Mr. Mladic's own behaviour.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Do we have 1D2990 in e-court.  Actually, I will skip

 7     that document, since I think we've raised that with the prior document.

 8        Q.   I'd like to now ask you about the road Jasenovac-Zeleni Jadar.

 9     After the safe area of Srebrenica was formed, within whose control was

10     that road, or rather, the territory where that road was located?

11        A.   Under the control of the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska,

12     namely, the Drina Corps.

13        Q.   And did that remain true for the entire duration of the existence

14     of the safe areas or did it change at any time?

15        A.   After Srebrenica was declared a safe area and after the UNPROFOR

16     arrived, a clear boundary of these protected areas was established,

17     whereas the warring parties remained on two different sides of the areas.

18     This part, Jasenovo, remained outside of the protected area in the

19     territory of the Drina Corps, that is to say, the VRS.

20             Initially, because of their unfavourable tactical position, the

21     units of the Drina Corps deployed in that area did not deploy their

22     forces ahead of that road so that the road would be behind them.  So

23     there came a moment when the forces of the 28th Division from Srebrenica

24     began to take advantage of that and to enter that interim area which

25     housed some installations and businesses such as Zeleni Jadar company,

Page 31870

 1     and they started carrying out sabotage actions.

 2        Q.   Now, I'd like to look at 1D2981 with you.  While we wait for it,

 3     it's dated the 3rd of January, 1995, and is issued by the Drina Corps

 4     command.  And it talks in the first paragraph before the order begins of

 5     the enemy from Srebrenica using the signed agreement on cessation of fire

 6     to seize important features and it refers to the area of Bracan to

 7     Zeleni Jadar.  How did this area relate to the territory and road that we

 8     just discussed?

 9        A.   These features mentioned in this document are geographical,

10     topographical features, they are far out of the protected area of

11     Srebrenica along the route to Zepa.  I remember this time very well

12     because I was designated in that place to organise communications.  Our

13     units did not have enough forces to keep their positions on these

14     features permanently, to have permanent points of resistance there, and

15     these are very dominating features, very good from a military point of

16     view.  Therefore, the command of the Drina Corps estimated that the

17     28th Division did not respect the truce that was signed and the

18     demilitarisation agreement, and they could advance towards these features

19     and occupy them using their dominant position.  During the implementation

20     of this order, I personally was assigned to organise communications and I

21     was there, present, in that area.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I would tender this document at this time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D905, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 31871

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   And now I would like to look at 1D2983 with you.  This, you'll

 3     see, is dated a few months later, 18 March 1995.  And here we have the

 4     formulation in the first paragraph, talking of equipment being taken from

 5     a sawmill in Zeleni Jadar or it being dismantled by -- dismantling

 6     equipment from the sawmill in Zeleni Jadar and taking it away and has the

 7     formulation "Turks."  Who is this reference in relation to?  Who was it

 8     that was dismantling and taking away this equipment?

 9        A.   It was the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

10     Srebrenica that were referred to.

11        Q.   And in this initial paragraph it says that UNPROFOR has not done

12     anything to -- has so far not done anything to prevent such behaviour,

13     and then in items 1 and 2 of the order it says that the task of

14     preventing such actions should be undertaken "with the help of UNPROFOR,

15     and if that does not yield results, UNPROFOR is to be warned that this

16     will be prevented by force."

17             Do you know if the Drina Corps did, in fact, undertake efforts to

18     work with UNPROFOR to prevent these types of things?

19        A.   Yes, Colonel Vukota Vukovic did that very often.  He had frequent

20     meetings with UNPROFOR and he was located precisely in the area of

21     Srebrenica and this territory around Zeleni Jadar belonged to his area of

22     responsibility.  I also believe that all the other political means were

23     used for that purpose.  The reckoning was that an agreement had been

24     signed, that it was a protected area, and that UNPROFOR would do that job

25     and prevent sorties of these armed units from Srebrenica.  These assaults

Page 31872

 1     and the looting of property controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I at this point in time put a question to the

 3     witness, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, in the first paragraph in the penultimate

 6     line we see the term "Turks."  What does this term refer to?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That expression was used very often

 8     in the war and it can be found in a number of very official military

 9     documents as used by the commanders.  "Turks" is a reference to members

10     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In similar documents on their own

11     sides they called members of the VRS "Chetniks," and some of the

12     commanders on our side called members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     "Turks."

14             And if I may add a personal explanation, I suppose that neither

15     side minded too much.  There's nothing offensive in this expression.

16     Even today when the national team of Turkey is playing in Sarajevo,

17     everybody's cheering the Turks, everybody in Sarajevo shares that

18     feeling.  Even once in Mostar there was a big quarrel when there was --

19     there was a fist-fight when --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you went far beyond by question, but one

21     term you used is not recorded.  You said even today when the national

22     team -- did you say of Turkey is playing in Sarajevo?  Was that what you

23     said?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anywhere where the Turkish national

25     team is playing.

Page 31873

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  That is clarified.

 2             In one of the previous documents we saw a reference to Muslims.

 3     Why was it used here not in this document, the term "Muslims"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Each commander who wrote a document

 5     used his own discretion in the choice of terms, but in the bulk of

 6     documents the opposing side is referred to as "the enemy," not "Turks,"

 7     not "Muslims," but "the enemy."

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If we can --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask --

11             MR. IVETIC:  -- yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- one clarifying question as well.

13             Witness, you explained that you expected UNPROFOR to do something

14     about this dismantling of facilities.  Just for my proper understanding,

15     do I understand that the factory or the facility was outside the

16     demilitarised zone but was not under real control of the VRS?  Is that --

17     now -- I see you are nodding yes.

18             What is it now exactly that you are blaming UNPROFOR for, for

19     not -- for allowing them to leave the demilitarised zone and do this --

20     undertake these activities of dismantling activities outside the

21     demilitarised zone or do you blame them for not having intervened when

22     that happened outside the demilitarised zone?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not blaming anyone.  I only

24     know that it was their duty because UNPROFOR was in the buffer zone and

25     they had their check-point on that road from Srebrenica to Zeleni Jadar.

Page 31874

 1     Behind their backs was the boundary of the protected area and the forces

 2     of the BH army.  It was logical to expect them to prevent armed members

 3     of the BH army from Srebrenica from passing by them, entering the area of

 4     the VRS, and taking equipment from there because such activity could lead

 5     to conflict.  And the job of the UNPROFOR there, as I understand it, was

 6     to supervise demilitarisation and prevent conflict.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you expected them to stop those

 8     who would undertake actions to enter through the buffer zone.  Did you

 9     also expect them to intervene if something happened outside the buffer

10     zone and, as you said, the area of the VRS?  I mean, were they within

11     their mandate allowed to follow those who left and then intervene in the

12     VRS zone or is it that you say, no, they should have stopped them even

13     from entering that zone?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, they should have

15     stopped them from entering the buffer zone, and obviously that

16     check-point of the UNPROFOR was on the asphalt road.  They made

17     incursions across that road, entered our area, looted and robbed, and

18     went back, but the first attempt to stop it should have been made by

19     UNPROFOR peacefully.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

21             MR. IVETIC:  We're at the break.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock.  Could you

23     tell us where we are in terms of time?  We happily have a witness who

24     gives direct, focused, and concise answers.  That's an advantage, I would

25     say.

Page 31875

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And I believe that I will finish within the

 2     time-period that we had set forth for this witness, perhaps even a little

 3     earlier.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- and where are you as far as you

 5     yourself are concerned?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I believe we had approximately 25 minutes yesterday

 7     and we've had approximately, I believe, 45 to 50 minutes today, so that

 8     should get me approximately halfway, a little over halfway.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because your time estimate was --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Three hours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Three hours.  Yes, we are close to one hour and a

12     half.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar confirms that you are still

15     within the one -- you are not yet at 50 per cent.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's nevertheless appreciated that you assume

18     that we are at 50 per cent and nevertheless perhaps finish earlier.

19             Witness, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in

20     20 minutes.  You may follow the usher.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 31876

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to call up P2100 in e-court.

 3        Q.   While we're waiting for that, I can tell you, sir, that it is

 4     dated the 3rd of June, 1995, originating from the forward command post in

 5     Pribicevac of the Drina Corps command.  And if we can first quickly look

 6     to the second page, we will see, sir, that this document purports to have

 7     your signature.

 8             Now, if we could move back to the first page and if we look at

 9     the item under 1, "Enemy," it reports a forceful expulsion of UNPROFOR

10     from the Zeleni Jadar post.  And then in the second paragraph under 1, it

11     talks about:

12             "Inhabitants of Zeleni Jadar moving out in panic following

13     UNPROFOR's withdrawal, with large groups of people (probably civilians)

14     observed in the afternoon moving from the general area of Zeleni Jadar

15     and Pusmulici towards Srebrenica."

16             First of all, sir, do you have any observations about the

17     accuracy of the reporting of these events in this document?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now if we look at the next page, do you have any comment

20     as to the signatory of this document being listed as yourself?

21        A.   During this operation that was being carried out by the

22     Drina Corps, I personally was at the Pribicevac forward command post.  It

23     was not actually an operation.  It was a combat activity that was

24     commanded by the corps commander, General Zivanovic.

25             When I testified previously, I had the opportunity to see the

Page 31877

 1     order for this operation and it pertains to taking full combat control

 2     over the Zeleni Jadar-Jasenovo road.  In that combat order it was stated

 3     that General Zivanovic, Colonel Stojan Veletic, chief of artillery of the

 4     Drina Corps, and I as someone who was in charge of organising

 5     communications were to be in command.

 6             When I testified before years ago, I had the opportunity to

 7     familiarise myself with this document as -- and as an officer I was taken

 8     aback, if you will, by this report on an operation that was commanded by

 9     General Zivanovic, corps commander; and there are two colonels who are

10     also at the command post with him.  I, as a young major then, was

11     supposed to write a report on that combat activity.  On the other hand, I

12     was taken aback by the considerable amount of misinformation in that

13     report because I know what the actual situation was at the time.  There

14     was a lot of exaggeration, and as far as officer speak is concerned, I

15     was taken aback by the illiteracy of officers writing up this report.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the short answer, sir, if we understand you

17     well, is that you are not the signatory to this document?  Is that --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Could you identify for us any items that you consider to be

21     inaccurate or exaggerations in this report, and perhaps we can go back to

22     the -- well, you could tell us -- you could tell us what parts you

23     consider to be inaccuracies or exaggerations in the reporting of these

24     events.

25        A.   I remember very well - how do I put this? - this combat activity

Page 31878

 1     was carried out during the course of a single day, that is to say, it

 2     lasted only one day.  Usually in the war-time period I would remember

 3     things that seemed unusual to me, and I remembered that event, namely,

 4     that this combat activity was carried out without a single bullet being

 5     fired.  Quite simply, our forces within their territory moved from one

 6     position to another and this road which was important to us thereby was

 7     left behind us and then our supplies could take place along that route.

 8             Further on in this report it is absolutely incorrect that in this

 9     area, this small place called Zeleni Jadar, and there was in the buffer

10     zone before this combat activity was carried out, it was not true that

11     civilians lived there, the civilian population.  Because first of all,

12     this is a place with a few very small factories and a few houses.  And I

13     never heard or saw in any area of Bosnia-Herzegovina that the civilian

14     population would live in a buffer zone, that is to say, between the

15     weapons aimed at the two warring parties against one another.  So I claim

16     with full responsibility that the civilian population did not live in the

17     buffer zone and, panic-stricken, they could not have moved towards

18     Srebrenica.

19             Also in this report there is a reference to some activities about

20     firing, then even the movement of tanks and APCs of the enemy in

21     Srebrenica.  And we know full well that the 28th Division in Srebrenica

22     did not have any usable tanks and APCs, and so on and so forth.  So it is

23     my general assessment that most of this report was written with a lot of

24     exaggeration and whoever it was that wrote this probably wanted to

25     exaggerate his own contribution to these events.

Page 31879

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 2             Witness, the first question in relation to this document that was

 3     put to you was whether -- whether you had any observations as to the

 4     accuracy of this report.  You said "no."  And then after that you start

 5     claiming the inaccuracy.  I have difficulties in reconciling your first

 6     answer which says:  No, I have no observations on it, and then start

 7     saying that it's all wrong what is written down there.  Do you have any

 8     explanation why you first answered that you had no observations about the

 9     accuracy of the reporting?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my understanding was

11     that the lawyer, Mr. Ivetic, asked how accurate this report was and to

12     what extent it was accurate, whether it reflects the actual situation on

13     the ground, as compared to what is written here.  So that is why I said

14     that the actual situation on the ground is not reflected in the content

15     of this report.  So that's why my answer was no.  So in my view, this

16     report is inaccurate.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you also said that the inhabitants of

18     Zeleni Jadar could not have left in panic because you thought that --

19     there were no inhabitants, and you explained that by saying that you'd

20     never seen that anywhere else, that in such a zone people were living and

21     that therefore they couldn't have been living there.  Now, that's a

22     conclusion, isn't it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is just something that

24     supports my assertion that they did not live there.  So I just supported

25     my assertion by saying that it didn't happen anywhere else either, but at

Page 31880

 1     first I did say that they did not live there, namely, that in

 2     Zeleni Jadar there was no civilian population.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And how do you know that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was at the forward

 5     command post while this combat activity was taking place.  It lasted only

 6     for a few hours within the course of a single day, and quite simply I was

 7     listening to all the reports coming in from the units that were carrying

 8     out this combat activity.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And it was not reported that people were living

10     there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly, and that they were not

12     living there and also that there was no one leaving that area.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So this is all invented by those who wrote this

14     report?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any explanation as why they would invent these kind

17     of things which would -- could lead to all kind of problems.  If your

18     report is not in accordance with the reality what's -- you take enormous

19     risks.  Any explanation for why they would have invented this?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That remained as a question in my

21     mind as well, in view of the fact that at the command post

22     General Zivanovic was there, Colonel Veletic, and Colonel Vukota, and I

23     as the fourth officer there.  So I believe that this report could have

24     been written only by General Zivanovic or one of these two colonels, and

25     I would like to hear their view why this report was written this way

Page 31881

 1     because it does not reflect the actual situation at all.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are so pertinent in that, where you say

 3     you -- you didn't sign the report, it was just sent on your behalf

 4     without your knowledge?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Somebody who wrote up this

 6     report at the end of the report just typed out my name.  The order from a

 7     day or two before this date for carrying out this operation, that order

 8     has the personal signature of General Zivanovic.  In my view, this was

 9     written by someone who wanted to show that he had achieved some kind of

10     major military success there, if I can put it that way, by commanding

11     this kind of action.  And there were many exaggerations here, many things

12     that are absolutely inaccurate and they are verifiable because you can

13     take the reports of the 28th Division from Srebrenica for that day about

14     our movements or about the withdrawal of civilians.  Also you can take

15     UNPROFOR reports, they were in Srebrenica.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  To some extent I think what you're telling us is

17     speculation, but you draw our attention to the possibility to verify

18     that.

19             And I take it that the parties take that seriously, that we can

20     see whether other reports support your thoughts that it may be

21     exaggerated.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we please see the bottom of the original,

23     please, the end of the original.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One small question.

25             In the beginning it says after the "expulsion of UNPROFOR."  It

Page 31882

 1     doesn't say exactly who expelled UNPROFOR.  Could you tell us who did

 2     that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that when this combat

 4     activity started, in that buffer zone there was an UNPROFOR check-point,

 5     that is to say, on the road between Zeleni Jadar and --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand all that, but I would like to know

 7     who then pushed them out from there?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At any rate, from a military point

 9     of view, if they were pushed out this only could have been done by the

10     members of the Drina Corps.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But do you know or do you not know?  Is this again a

12     conclusion or is it knowledge?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my knowledge, quite simply,

14     that these forces of ours that were carrying out this activity literally

15     wanted to make it known to UNPROFOR that they don't want any kind of

16     clash with them, but that in their own area, that is, within the area of

17     responsibility of the Drina Corps, they wish to place our forces on the

18     line so that this road would be placed under our control; that is to say,

19     the intention of the Drina Corps was not any kind of conflict with

20     UNPROFOR, only -- only for them, I mean, to allow us to put our positions

21     up on the territory that belongs to us.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me read it again.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you go back to page 1, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So under the heading "Enemy" where it reads:

25             "After a successful operation and the forceful expulsion of

Page 31883

 1     UNPROFOR from the Zeleni Jadar post, the enemy was observed

 2     systematically building up large forces ..."

 3             That refers to UNPROFOR being forcefully expelled from the

 4     Zeleni Jadar post by your forces?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what is referred to in

 6     this document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one short follow-up.

 9             Your assessment about this document was - that can be found on

10     page 26 - that somebody who has written this report wanted to exaggerate

11     his own contribution to these events.  Why is it that this person, this

12     unknown person, used your name if he wanted to show how good he was in

13     combat?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at the letter-head of

15     this document, you see that the report was sent to the command of the

16     Drina Corps, to the Chief of Staff personally; that is to say, somebody

17     wanted -- I mean, reports are never sent to the corps command to the

18     Chief of Staff.  Somebody wanted to fascinate or to show before this

19     Chief of Staff their --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I stop you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- achievements as an officer or --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My question was a little bit different from your

23     answer.  Why didn't this person, this unknown person, didn't use his own

24     name by signing if he wanted to show what a fantastic officer he was?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for example, if this report

Page 31884

 1     was written up by General Zivanovic, corps commander, it would be

 2     inappropriate for him to say that he is providing information to his

 3     Chief of Staff, reporting to him.  If he commanded the action, if he was

 4     carrying out this combat activity, then it certainly didn't suit him from

 5     a moral point of view for him then to report to his subordinate.  That's

 6     my line of thought.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, his subordinate?  It is sent to the

 8     Main Staff of the VRS Chief of Staff personally.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, it is correct that the -- there is an

10     error in the English translation, in the English version.  The original

11     is addressed to the Drina Corps, so that should be corrected.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you aware of that, Ms. Hasan?

13             MS. HASAN:  I was about to raise it but Your Honour was in the

14     middle of questioning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, that's --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's obvious, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a P exhibit?

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any P exhibit which clearly shows

22     mistakes, that should be reported without delay, Ms. Hasan.  You even

23     interrupt at the very moment you see it and say:  I would like to draw

24     your attention to the fact that we have to ask for a revised translation

25     because it's wrong.

Page 31885

 1             Any further questions or --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, that resolved the matter.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, now after this correction that this document

 5     was being sent to the Drina Corps, are you then saying that if this was

 6     done by General Zivanovic he was reporting to himself?  Or am I missing

 7     something?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he wrote this report - and he is

 9     the only one who can write a report, the person who commands an operation

10     is the one who writes the report - if he wrote this report and sent it to

11     the address of his own Chief of Staff, it was very illogical for him to

12     report to his subordinate.  So perhaps for that reason my name wandered

13     into the picture.  From a military point of view it is absolutely

14     impossible, given the duties that I was carrying out there, that I should

15     be the signatory of a report on an operation that is being carried out by

16     the corps commander.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19             I'd like to now return to the communications network of the

20     Drina Corps and call up 65 ter number --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the previous document you've shown to

22     the witness, if you want that to be in evidence, then I'd suggest that

23     you tender it.

24             MR. IVETIC:  That would then be --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

Page 31886

 1             MR. IVETIC:  2983 -- 1D2983, I apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You tender it?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D906, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And then if we could have 65 ter number 31890.

 8        Q.   Sir, we will have a diagram on our screens.  I'd like to ask you

 9     if you recognise what is depicted in this diagram.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And can you briefly summarise or walk us through what is depicted

12     herein?  What devices are depicted?

13        A.   This schematic of the organisation of radio relay communications

14     of the Drina Corps in the relevant period of the war between 1992 and

15     1995.

16        Q.   Okay.  And is the schematic showing the organisation of radio

17     relay communications of the Drina Corps accurate to the best of your

18     knowledge and recollection as depicted herein?

19        A.   Yes, it's correct.  There are tiny, minor, completely unimportant

20     differences between these two schematics, but for the bulk of radio relay

21     communications it is accurate and reflects the true situation at the

22     time.

23        Q.   Okay.  Do you know whose task it would have been to prepare

24     schematics like this --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the witness referred to differences in

Page 31887

 1     the two schematics.  Is this the first or is this the second, or what are

 2     we looking at?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  We're looking --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean if we are informed that there are differences

 5     between two, I wonder whether we are looking at number 1 or number 2.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  We are looking at number 1 and the English

 7     translation of number 1.  I believe - I don't want to put words into the

 8     witness's mouth - I believe he's ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so you say there are differences between the

10     English version and the original B/C/S version.

11             Is that what you wanted to tell us?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I only wanted to say that the

13     person who drew this made a tiny, really unimportant mistake right here,

14     because I want you to know exactly where the radio relay device in the

15     left bottom corner of the first schematic, this route ends at the point

16     marked PTT Sokolac, that's where it ends.  And then continues a wire

17     communication for a couple of kilometres.  It's a tiny correction.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you say this slightly differs from what was

19     there in reality?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.  It's a really minor

21     correction.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you have pointed at where it is.

23             Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

25        Q.   Do you know whose task it would have been to prepare a schematic

Page 31888

 1     like this one?

 2        A.   The drawing of schematics is part of planning communications and

 3     that is the job of the chief of communications in the corps.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Now, if we could tender this one at this time,

 5     Your Honours, and then go to the next.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we know where it comes from, Mr. Ivetic.  It's

 7     an attachment number 2.  It is undated.  Could you provide further

 8     information as to what it was attached and whether there's any date on

 9     the document to which it was attached, if it was a document.

10             MR. IVETIC:  The information I have from the Prosecution for this

11     document which is on their e-court as a 65 ter number is, I believe, that

12     it's undated.  I can ask the witness if he knows of any way to narrow

13     down the time range of this document based upon the name in the upper

14     right-hand corner, but beyond that I cannot provide reliable information.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Witness, do you know -- have you seen this document before?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my earliest appearances as a

18     witness, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know what time-frame it covers?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date when

21     this schematic was drawn, but generally it reflects the communications we

22     had throughout the war.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  They didn't change during the war in any way?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge as to what this diagram

Page 31889

 1     was attached to?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This diagram is a type of diagram

 3     that is made when communications are established, to be used as a work

 4     document.  And it's also created for various variants, such as the

 5     planning of different operations.  For me personally, it would be a very

 6     good work document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whether it's a good document or not, I

 8     asked you whether you know to what it was attached.  If you know, tell

 9     us; if you don't know, tell us as well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Is the Prosecution in any way in a position to clarify?

13             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  We do have information about what

14     this document was attached to and when it's from, if that's helpful.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you could --

16             MS. HASAN:  So this is from a plan for the Krimen [phoen]

17     operation which was an operation planned for July of 1994.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. HASAN:  I'm sorry, I misspoke, January of 1994.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  January 1994, so -- yeah, so the document was

21     created before January 1994 as far as the Prosecution is concerned -- or

22     in --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Around.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Around, yes.  But either late -- well, either early

25     1994 or previously.

Page 31890

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed -- well, you tendered it.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Tendered it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?

 5             MS. HASAN:  No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D907, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If we could now --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If, by the way, the document to which it was

11     attached sheds any further light on purpose of it, I don't know whether

12     you want to deal with it in cross-examination or not, but then of course

13     the Chamber would like to be informed.

14             MS. HASAN:  And just to add, Your Honour, the plan -- I believe

15     the entire plan was disclosed to the Defence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- well, that's -- whether we hear it from the

17     Defence or the Prosecution, it's clear now where it comes from.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If we can have 1D5361 in e-court.

20        Q.   And, sir, this --

21             MR. IVETIC:  If we could have the B/C/S flipped -- it's upside

22     down.  There we go.

23        Q.   Sir, this is another diagram that we have that according to the

24     right-hand corner is attachment number 2 of the Drina plan.  How does

25     this compare with the one that we just looked at in terms of what is

Page 31891

 1     depicted therein?

 2        A.   The principal elements of radio relay communications are the same

 3     in this diagram as in the previous one, I'm talking about the elements of

 4     radio relay communications of the Drina Corps.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And you've already told us that these types of orders

 6     would be attached to communications plans and you've identified that the

 7     system itself remained the same through the entire period.  What would be

 8     the differences, what parts would change from a given point in time to

 9     another as depicted on this scheme?

10        A.   All relay communications of the Drina Corps shown in this

11     schematic were in place and unchanged throughout the war.  There's only

12     one communication route that was equipped with RRU-1 was moved and

13     movable.  It moved depending on where the Drina Corps was carrying out

14     operations.  It was a small portable device and it was the only mobile

15     device and it moved together with the Drina Corps and its current

16     position.  All the other communications were fixed.

17        Q.   And, sir, do you have any recollection or information that you

18     can provide about what time-period this schematic would relate to, given

19     that it relates to the Drina plan?

20        A.   These names like "Drina," I don't know, I didn't plan the

21     communications so I don't know, but the way the communications are drawn

22     they reflect the communications as they were throughout the war.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, can we then tender this one into

24     evidence as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But does it mean that you do not know when this

Page 31892

 1     document was -- this sketch was drafted?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It's probably an operation or

 3     a plan that was given that name, "Drina," but I don't know that because I

 4     didn't have anything to do with planning, only implementation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic or Prosecution, this again is attached to

 6     some other documents.  Do we know what the other document is and from

 7     when it is?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I personally don't.  This particular ERN by itself I

 9     could not find in EDS which means that it is attached to another

10     document.  Without knowing the first page of that range, I could not

11     locate the document in EDS.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, would you have any clue to --

13             MS. HASAN:  Yes, this is another plan and it's from 1993.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Any month?

15             MS. HASAN:  We'll look into that.  I don't have the month.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 1993, 1994.

17             You tendered it?

18             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But Judge Moloto has perhaps one or more questions.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, just a little observation.

21             In the previous schematic diagram, sir, you referred us to the

22     left bottom corner to PTT Sokolac and there was a little box to the right

23     of this one that is there and a little line showing that the two were

24     connected.  I see that little box is not here.  Does that make any

25     significant difference or not?  And if so, what is the difference?

Page 31893

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This little box, as the interpreter

 2     called it to me, is the way a stationary communications centre is marked,

 3     depicted PTT Sokolac.  That's where it indeed was.  But the person who

 4     drew this took the liberty of placing one thing on one side and the other

 5     on the other, which is basically a choice the person has.  It doesn't

 6     matter to this schematic.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe I didn't express myself clearly.  What I'm

 8     saying is the previous exhibit had two little boxes here; this one has

 9     got only one --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the two --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the English one be zoomed in.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, the previous exhibit.  This is a B/C/S and

14     an English version of the same document, but D907 --

15             MR. IVETIC:  907.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we could have D907.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way that we could have D907 to the left

18     and this one --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the right.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the right.  And the original of D907 and then

21     the English version of this document.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even the original of ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 31894

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This one has a circle and a box.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we zoom in to this one, the one on the left.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please zoom in further on the left side, yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this really -- does it say "Sokolac"?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we zoom in even more to the left bottom side

 7     of what is on the left part of the screen.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have looked at it carefully.  We -- I've one

10     final question.  We see lines which are just straight lines and we see

11     lines which look like a telephone cable.  What is the telephone cable

12     line standing for and what is the direct line, often with numbers to it,

13     stand for?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, this coiled wire

15     means that these two locations, PTT Sokolac and the location called

16     Knezina, were connected by telephone cable.  And this wavy line depicts a

17     telephone cable, it could be underground or above ground.  And this

18     straight line is a radio relay communication between two points.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that is also expressed by what looks like a

20     parabolic antenna in the symbol a triangle with something on top of it

21     which then depicts the antenna.  Yes, thank you.

22             Mr. Ivetic, I think we have no further questions on the --

23             MR. IVETIC:  I think it tendered it [overlapping speakers] --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you tendered it.

25             Mr. Registrar.

Page 31895

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D908, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D908 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  If we could now have P1624 in e-court.

 4        Q.   This is a map --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so.

 6             Witness, earlier when you said on the other map it's more or less

 7     the same, did you as a matter of fact refer to this map which -- this

 8     diagram which the Chamber had not seen before?  Were you comparing those

 9     two?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  These two diagrams on the

11     screen now are basically from the standpoint of -- of view of the

12     organisation of radio relay connections -- communications of the

13     Drina Corps are absolutely the same.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at the same time I see, for example, that

15     there is a double connection from Veliki Zep.  If you look at those

16     antennas, you see in easterly direction there are five on the one diagram

17     and there are four on the other one.  Perhaps we could zoom out slightly

18     on the left one, but you see in the square box -- yes, I see in the left

19     diagram we have four and in the right diagram we have five.  That seems

20     to be not exactly the same.  Could you tell us how you can reconcile that

21     with saying that it's the same?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right one has five lines,

23     that's to say, five radio relay routes.  But these two lines, these two

24     radio relay routes that are closest to each other and that are going to

25     the same location, that schematic dates back to the time when at the

Page 31896

 1     location Bratunac, for the needs of the Bratunac Brigade, it was

 2     envisaged for this second line to go to the airfield in Bratunac.

 3     There's an airfield there from the past used for sports planes.  And this

 4     schematic was just a plan.  But the airfield eventually never came to be

 5     used so two lines were never established, only one, and that was the

 6     connection with the Bratunac Brigade.

 7             The left schematic is more recent --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I stop you there.  We are looking at

 9     two diagrams which both reflect plans, so to say what happened we cannot

10     see that on this diagrams because these are just plans, as was explained

11     to us.  Now, I see that at least these plans there is -- in this respect

12     there is a difference, which you just explained to us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If we could take a look at P1624.  This will be a

17     map from the Army of BiH, the counter-electronic warfare service of that

18     army and it, according to the left top corner, is from January 1995 to

19     September 1995.  I would like to zoom in on the intersecting lines that

20     converge at the bottom right of the map if we can.  A little bit more.  A

21     little bit more.  A little bit more.

22        Q.   And, sir, do you recognise the geographic locations that are

23     depicted in this portion of this map?

24        A.   Yes, although the resolution is rather poor now that you've

25     zoomed in.

Page 31897

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps we could zoom out one level.

 2        Q.   Is that better, sir?

 3        A.   Maybe go back to the previous one.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have a hard copy of it, Mr. Ivetic?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Unfortunately I don't have a hard copy of this one.

 6     I do have an electronic copy but that's not going to help us since the

 7     witness would not be able to mark the electronic copy unless it's in

 8     e-court.  Every time they go into e-court they come back with the same

 9     resolution, I believe, unless --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- bringing it into e-court would not assist in

13     making the resolution any better.

14             MR. IVETIC:  No, no.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It can be worse or the same.

16             Yes.

17             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, we do have hard copies of this map if it

18     would be of assistance, we can get those during the break or send someone

19     in to bring them now.

20             MR. IVETIC:  We're almost at the break, so I can perhaps ask some

21     questions without the use of the maps and then if the counsel are able to

22     give us one that could be marked --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

24             MR. IVETIC:  -- then we can do that.  We would appreciative.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, your assistance is very much appreciated,

Page 31898

 1     Ms. Hasan.  And we'll take a break in five minutes from now.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Now, sir, first of all, could you tell us, did you have a chance

 5     to review this map during proofing?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And, sir, in relation to the area of -- the geographic area that

 8     is depicted here, which area is it that is depicted in this portion of

 9     the map, the lower right-hand corner of the map?

10        A.   This is a part of the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps

11     with the radio relay hub in Veliki Zep and it depicts also radio relay

12     routes that supposedly diverge from this hub -- that radiate from that

13     hub.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And then, Your Honours, I guess we could take the

16     break now because any other question would confuse us without having a

17     map that we can actually point to and mark.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take the break now.

19             Witness, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may

20     follow the usher.

21             We resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 11.48 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 31899

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, is Mr. Lukic, lead

 2     counsel, is he around?  Because we would like to briefly deal with the

 3     request.  If he could come to court if -- either at the very end of this

 4     session or at the beginning of the next one, that would be appreciated.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I'll make sure that that message gets back to him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, with -- during the break we have

 9     received, with the assistance of the Office of the Prosecutor, a hard

10     copy of this same map which we've placed on the ELMO.  So at this time I

11     would ask the court officer to activate the ELMO screen for our monitors.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's activated.  If you push the ELMO button and

13     then you will see it.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, it's been a little while

15     since we've used that so I was a little bit rusty as to how -- how to

16     effectuate that on my end.

17        Q.   Sir, looking at the ELMO --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

19             Ms. Hasan.

20             MS. HASAN:  Sorry to interrupt.  We do have one in hard copy,

21     Your Honours, if you want to look at it there or if that's sufficiently

22     clear for you, that's fine.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you have a hard copy available, then we

24     certainly would like to have a look at it.  If it's the only one and if

25     you would be handicapped by not having it, then of course we would look

Page 31900

 1     at our screens.

 2             MS. HASAN:  We have the original as well.  Would you prefer to

 3     look at the original?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

 5             MS. HASAN:  No?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- any copy which is well legible is fine.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps the ELMO can be adjusted to make it more

 8     clear on the screen.  Could the usher assist and try to make it --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I think if we unfold the bottom and lay it flat, it

10     should assist with the focusing.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the resolution be made more accurate.  I

12     think this seems to be the optimal situation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's clear enough.  Of course the witness

14     can look at the ELMO version --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- directly.  We have a version before us, and I'm

17     still on good terms with my colleagues so we can -- we'll share one.

18             MR. IVETIC:  You can share.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Now, sir, based on your information and knowledge, is what is

22     depicted here accurately representing the VRS communications network?

23     And I'm only talking about the area in relation to the Drina Corps that

24     we're zoomed in on.

25        A.   No.

Page 31901

 1        Q.   With the assistance of the usher, could you first mark with an X

 2     and then a sequential number starting with a 1 each of the components of

 3     this map which you want to identify as being inaccurate and after marking

 4     each one give us an explanation of what you know about this component,

 5     including a description of what is accurate or not?

 6        A.   First of all, I will start from the south, that is to say, from

 7     number 6.  Veliki Zep, then further on this black line where it says

 8     "Veliki Tmor," it never existed before the war, during the war, or after

 9     the war.  It is marked in dark black, so whoever drew this map knows that

10     this is a very important relay line with a lot of channels; however, it

11     never existed, this radio relay route.

12        Q.   And -- hold on, and for the purposes of the record, you have now

13     put an X and a number 1.  Where have you put the X and a number 1, what

14     is depicted there?

15        A.   The radio relay between Veliki Zep and Veliki Tmor, that is to

16     say, between two features, and this radio relay axis never existed and

17     it's not on the schematic or diagram that we looked at today.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what we see here under the name

19     "Panorama" which seems to be in the centre of this relay network, is that

20     what you call Veliki Zep?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Veliki Zep is the top of this

22     mountain, trig 3527 metres.  Panorama for a while was the code name for

23     the communications centre of the Main Staff of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska that was at the foot of that mountain, Veliki Zep.  That

25     is how it is depicted on the map.

Page 31902

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So where we read "Panorama," it is next to a

 2     mountain and that mountain which is at the centre of the communications

 3     here, that is what you call Veliki Zep?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And Veliki Tmor, that is in small letters at the

 6     bottom of the map between 84 and 86, where the line ends which you

 7     crossed out?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Veliki Tmor is a topographic

 9     feature that is an extension of this line; however, whoever it was that

10     drew this map did not have -- I mean that side, if you will, so this

11     relay route could not have continued to that point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It didn't exist.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   If you could --

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   If you could, sir, now go ahead to the next point on the map that

18     you wanted to identify and explain to us -- first by marking with an X

19     and by putting the number 2 next to it and then explain for us what you

20     wish to say about that particular aspect.

21        A.   The next one is this line that denotes the radio relay between

22     Veliki Zep and then further on towards the town of Pale, where the

23     command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was and the Presidency of

24     Republika Srpska.  However, our actual communications were not organised

25     with this azimuth and in this way.  Rather, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

Page 31903

 1     and the Presidency had communication from Veliki Zep to Jahorina, and

 2     then on Jahorina there was an intermediate station for Pale.  So Pale is

 3     at the foot of the mountain and there is no optical visibility with

 4     Veliki Zep and that is why a completely different direction was taken

 5     towards Jahorina.  So this Veliki Zep-Pale that is marked on this map is

 6     not correct.

 7        Q.   And for the record, could you mark that with an X and a number 2,

 8     that part that is incorrect from Pale to Veliki Zep?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness needs --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be provided with a pen which

11     works.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Now, using the pointer, that is to say, not drawing on the map

14     but using the pointer, could you show us the direction that this

15     communication actually went to Jahorina and then to Pale.  Show

16     Your Honours what route actually was taken for those communications.

17        A.   Here on this map we cannot see Jahorina because it is to the

18     south from here, so I would need another map in addition to mark that

19     part.  At any rate, it's to the south but not under this azimuth where

20     the town of Pale is.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now could you move to the next point that you wish to tell

22     us about, first mark it with an X and the number 3 and then describe for

23     the members of the Panel what comments you have to say about that

24     element.

25        A.   What is marked here is the radio relay route between Veliki Zep

Page 31904

 1     and the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade of the Drina Corps.

 2     Purportedly there was a communication between Veliki Zep and the town of

 3     Sokolac.  It says "Bresa" here, that is the secret name, the code-name,

 4     of this brigade, and whoever it was that drew this map wrote in red "the

 5     Sokolac Brigade" up here.  However, this route did not exist at all.  As

 6     for communication with this brigade because there is no optical

 7     visibility between Veliki Zep and Sokolac, we had to organise it through

 8     the Strazbenica hub that is all the way in Montenegro, the state of

 9     Montenegro to the south.  And then this intermediate station had a

10     completely different azimuth, so it rechannelled, if I can put it that

11     way, the communication towards Sokolac.  So this axis never existed and

12     whoever it was who drew this map did not know how communication was

13     organised to the 2nd Romanija Brigade.

14        Q.   Okay, sir.  Now for the next element could you mark it with an X

15     and the number 4 and give a brief explanation of your comments relative

16     to the accuracy or the inaccuracy of the same?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it would be very helpful if you can slow down

18     while speaking.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next marked radio relay route

20     to the alleged units of the 2nd Romanija Brigade absolutely never

21     existed.  Within the brigades, we never had battalions that had radio

22     relay communication.  So this route never existed.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   And you're referring to what you have now marked with an X and

25     the number 4; is that correct?

Page 31905

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now could you please first mark with an X and with the number 5

 3     the next element of this map that you would like to give us a brief

 4     comment upon.

 5        A.   Also, this route that I marked with a number 5, that never

 6     existed either.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Could you move on to the next element of the map that you

 8     have a comment upon, mark it with an X and the number 6 and give us your

 9     explanation?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before he does that --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, sorry.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- could we find out between which two points is

13     number 5.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we move a little bit further to the right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Still a bit more.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over here on the map he linked some

17     two locations where we did not have any commands or radio relay routes.

18     Quite simply, this was drawn -- I mean, I didn't draw this map, none of

19     our members did, so I simply find this illogical how somebody could have

20     marked something like that, the existence of a radio relay route.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know what the names of those two points are

22     at the end of the line, either side?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are two elevations, heights,

24     hills.  It's very hard to read this because the map is so small, but I

25     assume that whoever it was that drew this map thought that we had points

Page 31906

 1     as high up as possible in order to have optical visibility.  However, in

 2     this area we had no need whatsoever for radio relay communications.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, could we learn what

 5     this map -- is this a plan or is this an abandoned plan?  Because the

 6     witness says that nothing is - until now - is what it looks like.  So

 7     therefore I'm wondering --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I can answer that, Your Honours.  At

 9     transcript page 13337 we had Prosecution Witness RM279 testify that this

10     map was created by the ABiH in 1998, relying on the information of

11     analyses of intercepted VRS communications from 1995 and at that time it

12     was introduced into evidence in this case.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just have a look.

14             So this depicts then, if I could say so, the enemy

15     communications?

16             MR. IVETIC:  No, the enemy's -- the VRS communications that the

17     enemy was supposedly listening to.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  ABiH depicting what in their view the

19     enemy --

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- communications were.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I meant with "enemy communications."

24             MR. IVETIC:  Then absolutely, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you -- well, I'll look at the transcript.

Page 31907

 1             MR. IVETIC:  13337 --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  -- is the page number.

 4        Q.   Sir, could you now move on to the next point in the map that you

 5     wanted to comment on, mark it with an X, and identify it with the number

 6     6 and give us your explanation of why it is inaccurate.

 7        A.   This line marked here on the map between Veliki Zep and

 8     Han Pijesak as a radio relay communication, I allow for the possibility

 9     that this did exist, or rather, this radio relay communication did exist.

10     Now, could you please tell me how it is that I'm supposed to mark it as

11     opposed to the other ones.

12        Q.   I think we're only marking the ones that are inaccurate or that

13     you believe are inaccurately reflecting the actual situation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we put a little circle, a little O around

15     that --

16             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine, yeah.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- line or over that line so that we know that you

18     have testified about that line and possibly -- either existing or

19     possibly existing.  So if you could make just a little circle which

20     includes the line, then ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This communication did exist.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and perhaps it would even be best to give that

23     a number as well, so that we know the cross with the numbers and the

24     circles with the numbers.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, that's fine.

Page 31908

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make that a 5 then -- I think we -- were

 2     we at 5 --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  A 6.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  A 6, could you add a small 6 next to the circle.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it almost looks as if it was 60 but --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  At least it will be identifiable.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- let's move on.  Yes.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   If you could now mark the next location you want to talk about

11     with the number 7, and if it's incorrect an X, if it's correct an O, and

12     then give us an explanation.

13        A.   This communication, this radio relay communication never existed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, just for completeness of the record,

15     where the witness put a little circle, he later crossed out that circle

16     in a way as which in computer language you make a zero.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   And you've identified already for us - let me just see - the --

20     the item you marked with a 7 as not existing, what are the end points at

21     each end of the alleged route?

22        A.   The end point was Veliki Zep and here, this intersection of

23     roads, it says "Ravanjsko."

24        Q.   Okay.  Is there any other element in this map that you wish to

25     comment upon as being inaccurate depicting the routes -- relay routes of

Page 31909

 1     the Drina Corps?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you mark that next route with an 8 and an X and then give

 4     us an explanation?

 5        A.   This radio relay route between Veliki Zep and an elevation here,

 6     it's called Viselac, above the town of Vlasenica.  In Vlasenica that's

 7     where the corps command was, in the centre of town, and on the building

 8     of that corps command, that is to say, on the roof of that command

 9     building, we had an antenna and equipment.  Whoever it was that drew this

10     map went here, about a kilometre and a half to the west, and he thought

11     that we had relay equipment here, but we actually had it here in town on

12     a roof-top, on the roof-top of that building.  So there's a big

13     difference in azimuth of some 5 degrees.  Although now I am at a loss as

14     to whether I should cross this out as such; however, it is inaccurate

15     since we had equipment in town itself, not on this hill about a kilometre

16     and a half to the west.

17        Q.   Could you mark that route that you've been talking about with an

18     X and the number 8.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and here X not standing for a non-existing

21     communication but one that is plotted not correctly --

22             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- according to the witness on this map.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe so your pen doesn't dry up, close it in

25     between using.

Page 31910

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Are there any other elements on this map that you believe are

 3     inaccurately recording the actual situation of the relay routes of the

 4     Drina Corps?

 5        A.   The next one, from the corps command to Veliki Zep we had two

 6     radio relay communications, and here the second one hasn't been marked at

 7     all; that is to say, only this one, the one that I crossed out, was

 8     marked and it's not placed in the best place, but the second one that we

 9     had was not marked at all.

10        Q.   Could you --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you explain --

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- what you mean by "was not marked at all"?  We

14     can't see the end of the line because the map has to be moved a little

15     bit further to the bottom left side.  But what do you mean by this term?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that according to the

17     diagram of communications, from Veliki Zep to Vlasenica we had two

18     routes.  Whoever it was that drew this map envisaged only this one, but

19     he did not know of the existence of yet another one that we had up to

20     here, to the town of Vlasenica, which I also consider to be lack of

21     knowledge of communications.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As you said earlier, the line doesn't end in the

23     town but on an elevation and that was wrong, this was marked as X 8.  And

24     little bit further to the east there is the correct line missing.  Is

25     that well understood?

Page 31911

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is to say, a bit further

 2     east in town itself there should be two lines.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just take a follow-up on that one.  Does

 5     this line marked number 8, is it not possible that that is the second

 6     line that you say ended up in Vlasenica?  Maybe incorrectly placed, but

 7     intended to be the one that is missing -- that you say is missing?  I'm

 8     asking this because the one line on the east goes past Vlasenica, but

 9     this one, although not on the roof of the top -- on the roof of the

10     building, does end around Vlasenica.  Could it be that that is the second

11     line that you say is missing?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This line that I intend to cross

13     out now is a link between Veliki Zep and the Birac Brigade in Sekovici,

14     which also did not exist so I'm going to cross that out later.  But I'm

15     saying once again, in the actual plan of communications from Veliki Zep

16     to Vlasenica we had two lines.  Whoever it was that drew this map just

17     envisaged this one and at a wrong place in that.  He did not know of the

18     existence of yet another one at all.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You have explained it better for me.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Could you now move to the next one, to Sekovici, that you said

22     you also wanted to cross out later, could you mark that with an X and the

23     number 9 and give us your explanation.

24        A.   This relay route never existed.  With Sekovici we organised

25     communication round -- in a roundabout way.  Four hubs were involved with

Page 31912

 1     a completely different azimuth.

 2        Q.   Why did you need to organise communications with Sekovici via

 3     four different hubs; what was the reason for that?

 4        A.   Because the brigade command in Sekovici is in a valley and there

 5     is no optical visibility to Sekovici, so we had to go around in order to

 6     establish communication because the equipment that we used needed optical

 7     visibility in order to establish communication.

 8        Q.   Do you have any other elements of this map that you believe are

 9     inaccurate that you would like to discuss with us in court?

10        A.   Yes.  I would just like to ask kindly where this line ends

11     finally.

12             MR. IVETIC:  If we could move the map, I guess, down and to the

13     left.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To the left.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This route on here connects two

16     points Veliki Zep and a place called Osmace Tactical Group.  Due to the

17     absence of optical visibility we never had a radio relay route with a

18     command in Osmace.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Then could you mark that one with an X and I believe we're up to

21     the number 10.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Are there any other elements on this map that you consider to be

24     inaccurate that you would like to discuss with us in court today?

25        A.   This next radio relay route connected Veliki Zep with the

Page 31913

 1     communications hub at Crni Vrh, Gucevo, in Serbia.  However, we never had

 2     such organised communication with the hub at Crni Vrh.  Instead, it went

 3     from Veliki Zep to Mount Cer, and from Mount Cer to Crni Vrh, so that

 4     this radio relay route, the next one that was drawn, never existed.

 5        Q.   Could you mark with an X and the number 11 this one that never

 6     existed.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Again could you explain for us why you had to go through the

 9     relay hub at Cer to reach the -- Crni Vrh.

10        A.   Because there's no optical visibility between Veliki Zep and

11     Crni Vrh.  Instead, we had to take a roundabout way using hubs where

12     there is optical visibility under a completely different azimuth.

13        Q.   Are there any other elements of this map that you consider to be

14     inaccurate that you would like to describe for us?

15        A.   The next one is between Veliki Zep and Milici, that is to say,

16     the Milici Infantry Brigade, because there was no optical visibility with

17     the command of the Milici Brigade, we never had this route.  We had wire

18     communication with that brigade from Vlasenica and we didn't need the

19     radio relay communication, and that one is drawn on the radio relay

20     communications plan.  This radio relay route never existed.

21        Q.   For the one that never existed, could you mark it with an X and

22     the number 12.

23        A.   [Marks]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And could the map be moved more to the left side.

25     Yes.  Thank you.

Page 31914

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Are there any other inaccuracies that you would like to identify

 3     for us on this map?

 4        A.   The next radio relay route with this device drawn in black is

 5     absolutely unclear to me.  We never had a unit there whatsoever and we

 6     never had any radio relay route in that direction.

 7        Q.   Could you mark that one with an X and the number 1-3, 13.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And could you identify for us the end points of that alleged

10     radio route, the locations of the end points of each end.

11        A.   That radio relay route connects features of Veliki Zep and it

12     says here "Bisina," if I'm reading correctly.

13        Q.   And are there any other radio relay routes of the Drina Corps

14     depicted on this map that are incorrect that you need to discuss with us?

15        A.   This radio relay route drawn in black connects the radio relay

16     hub of Veliki Zep, ending at Avala, Mount Avala near Belgrade.  If I see

17     right, that route did exist but it didn't take a straight line like shown

18     here.  Instead, it went first to Mount Cer and from Mount Cer to Avala,

19     whereas this map shows a direct line from Veliki Zep to Avala.  You can

20     see that if you unfold the map because Mount Cer is approximately in the

21     same direction.  But in any case, there was not a direct route from

22     Veliki Zep to Avala, it had to go through the hub at Mount Cer.

23        Q.   Could we mark --

24        A.   Here, what I just tried to explain now, if you can see well, this

25     is an uninterrupted line ending at Avala near Belgrade.  That was also

Page 31915

 1     not a direct line.  It went through the hub at Mount Cer.

 2        Q.   For that line that you've just identified could you put a

 3     number 14 and also an X indicating an incorrect route.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the witness be provided with another pen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps put away the other one.

 7             Could I ask the witness one question.

 8             A minute ago you told us that the line to Mount Cer did not

 9     exist, and you are now telling us that this first stretch to Mount Cer

10     was part of a non-direct line with Avala, I think you said, or Kavali --

11     Mount Avala.  Now, I'm a bit confused.  If you have this first part of

12     the route at Mount Cer, that means that there is a connection between

13     Veliki Zep and Mount Cer.  And a minute ago you told us that there was no

14     such connection, no such radio relay.  Could you explain how we have to

15     understand this.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be an error in

17     interpretation.  I said there was no radio relay connection between

18     Veliki Zep and Crni Vrh.  Maybe the interpreters confused it, maybe they

19     confused Crni Vrh and Cer.  That was not my intention.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Or I misunderstood it.  Perhaps --

21             MR. IVETIC:  If I can assist, Your Honours, page 60, lines 2

22     through 13, seem to imply --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  -- that they had to go to Cer to get to Crni Vrh,

25     and that the line from Veliki Zep to Crni Vrh did not exist as a straight

Page 31916

 1     line.  I think that's the confusion.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, not -- let me re-read it.  One second.

 3             So sometimes you say the radio relay route may have been there

 4     but not as plotted on this map, where it's sometimes plotted as a direct

 5     route and that's true for Crni Vrh and now for Mount Avala, that there

 6     was radio relay -- there was a radio relay system, but not as depicted on

 7     this map.  Is that well understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not quite.  This radio relay route

 9     plotted as it is on this map, showing a direct connection between

10     Veliki Zep and Avala near Belgrade, never existed.  Instead, to Avala you

11     had to go through the radio relay hub at Cer, that is to say,

12     Veliki Zep-Cer and then Cer-Avala.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So the relay existed but in two steps and not as

14     marked on this map in one direct relay.  Please -- Ms. --

15             MS. HASAN:  Could we just get some clarity if the witness can

16     show us where Mount Cer is that he's been referring to.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that would make it easier to understand.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you --

20             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps we can mark Cer with a 15.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps.

22             Could you tell us where that Mount Cer is.  Have you found it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The map is very difficult to read

24     because of its scale, but Mount Cer is a mountain overlooking the town of

25     Loznica.  It's somewhere in this area.  And this connection could not be

Page 31917

 1     made over such a large distance.  So instead, it had to go through this

 2     mountain.  If I had a different, easier map to read I could more easily

 3     find that location.  In any case, it's somewhere here in this sector.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see on the map, using my best glasses,

 5     "K Cer" which is at just -- let me find it again, which is just below

 6     south of Gornji -- is it Bornja [phoen] -- could you --

 7             MS. HASAN:  Can --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, perhaps this will just make it a bit

10     simpler.  If we look where it says "K Avala," there is a triangle which

11     is depicting a station and you see just in the middle of it it says

12     "Cer."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see there -- yes.

14             MS. HASAN:  If we just move the map on the ELMO a little bit so

15     everyone can see it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we see on Mount Avala, we see the letters

17     "C-e-r" from what I see.

18             Do you see that?  And what does that stand for?  Do you know

19     whether that's Mount Cer or is it not what you refer to?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, my mistake.  I read

21     "Avala" here.  So on this map, which is not our own military map, I

22     thought it was a relay connection to Avala avoiding Cer.  So at the

23     beginning there is Avala and this radio relay route 14 did exist.  I'm

24     sorry, I made the mistake because this is not a military map that I

25     normally deal with.

Page 31918

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I then understand well that where it's written

 2     "Avala" or "Avali," that that indicates, as it often does in the margin

 3     of the map, where -- to what destination the route continues?  So we have

 4     to read now the line connecting Veliki Zep to where it is written

 5     "Ka Avala," where we find next to the line the letters SMC, to be the

 6     first stretch going to Mount Cer, which then continues not visible on

 7     this map to -- okay, that's hereby clarified.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And perhaps for number 14, if we can put a circle

 9     around the X to denote that that is a correct route.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- well, the correct route is with a circle,

11     yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness confirmed now that where he depicted

13     X 14, this is a correct line.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay --

17             MR. IVETIC:  Okay --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I interrupt you?

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps we make first that circle around the X,

21     it changed from non-existing to existing.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make -- next to 14, could you make a

24     little circle around the X you --

25             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 31919

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you were at the right spot a second ago.  Could

 2     you mark -- could you make a little circle --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just refer to page 63, lines 17 and 18,

 6     Judge Orie asked:  "So the relay existed but in two steps and not as

 7     marked on this map in one direction -- one direct relay," and the witness

 8     nodded "yes" but because you didn't say it verbally it didn't come on to

 9     the record.  I just wanted the record to show that you did answer that

10     question and said "yes."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But this was corrected later.  It was I think --

12     I don't want to repeat that, it would confuse it even more, but at the

13     end the witness said this is depicted correctly in the map.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the parties do not disagree on that the

15     witness confirmed that it was a two-step relay which he thought was not

16     properly plotted, but the parties both have heard and as has the Chamber

17     that the witness confirmed that it was a two-step --

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, that's correct.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] -- explains why there

20     is an explanation -- [Microphone not activated]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   And are we finished with all the inaccuracies or are there more

24     inaccuracies you wanted to point to our attention on this map?

25        A.   I wish to say concerning the inaccuracies that there was never a

Page 31920

 1     direct radio relay route between Veliki Zep and what is marked here as

 2     the Skelani Brigade although it was the Skelani Battalion.  So this route

 3     never existed.  Communication with the Skelani Battalion was organised in

 4     a completely different way.

 5        Q.   Could you mark that one with an X and the number -- I think we're

 6     up to 15.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And does that complete your review of all the inaccurate parts of

 9     the Drina Corps communications network as depicted in this map?

10        A.   No.  It's also drawn here that communication with the

11     Rogatica Brigade, whose secret code-name was Domar, was organised

12     directly from Veliki Zep towards Rogatica, which is completely untrue.

13     Because there was no optical visibility between Veliki Zep and Rogatica,

14     this communication was organised via a feature Strazbenica in Montenegro,

15     so this is completely inaccurate.

16        Q.   Could you mark that with an X and the number 16.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And now have we completed your recitation of incorrect radio

19     relay routes of the Drina Corps on this map?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this map at this time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  As marked by the witness.

23             MR. IVETIC:  As marked, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then we have to -- the map is now on the

25     ELMO, therefore it first has to be scanned and uploaded into e-court.

Page 31921

 1     Therefore, the map as marked should be given in the hands of the

 2     Registrar and then -- or would you -- I don't know whether you have the

 3     technical facilities to upload it or whether it has to be scanned in any

 4     technical way.  Could you please organise this together with the

 5     Registrar so that we have finally a good copy in e-court and I think the

 6     original one should be kept as well.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay, that's fine.  Perhaps you should MFI it

 8     instead of entering it into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although it's due to these technicalities

10     that's -- unless Ms. Hasan would have any objection against admission.

11             MS. HASAN:  No, Your Honour, I just had two points of

12     clarification in relation to the witness's testimony I thought might be

13     easier to deal with now.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it always --

15             MS. HASAN:  [Overlapping speakers] -- I can address it to you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it -- of course I do not know what you are

17     going to say, I also do not know whether we -- you think we would need to

18     hear that right away or would it --

19             MS. HASAN:  I just think it might be helpful.  But I can briefly

20     just tell you and that is the -- you know, we've been referring to a --

21     you've heard a lot of evidence about a station called Gucevo and we've

22     been looking at this map and the witness has marked and spoken about a

23     certain link, and I think it would help Your Honours to know whether

24     Gucevo is a station represented on this map and whether the witness has

25     addressed that.

Page 31922

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, would you have any problems in this

 2     being addressed at this moment --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Not at all.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- by the Prosecution?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Not at all, that's fine.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Not at all.

 7             Then please proceed.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Witness, could you -- are you familiar with a

 9     communications station or node that's called Gucevo?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- yes, your question is now asked by the

11     Prosecution - that's a bit exceptional - but the question is whether you

12     are familiar with a Gucevo communications station?  You are?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Gucevo is the same as

14     Crni Vrh.

15             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That clarifies it apparently well.  Then you can

17     move on -- well --

18             MR. IVETIC:  We still --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Judge Moloto may have another question --

20             MR. IVETIC:  -- need a number reserved.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we still need a number.

22             Mr. Registrar, the number reserved for the map which is now still

23     on the ELMO but will be soon in original in your hands and in e-court

24     would be MFI'd under number ...?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D909, Your Honours.

Page 31923

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the number?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the time being.  You said 90 --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D909.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D909 is marked for identification.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I'd now like to move to D879 in e-court.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, maybe I should ask a question about

 8     the map --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Go ahead, sir.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- before you go on.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Go ahead.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I just want to find out if somebody is

13     plotting radio relay lines on a map using as his source interception of

14     telephone communication and the two people talking are speaking on a line

15     that is not straight but goes via, would that person be able to identify

16     that that line is not straight?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person, if they are listening

18     in on a conversation, has to have his antenna directed the same way, in

19     the same route as the conversation that's taking place.  Sometimes three

20     different communications nodes are used.  That person with his antenna

21     has to be at least in -- following the direction of one of them.  His

22     antenna has to be turned to face that route.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would the short answer be:  Yes, he should be able

24     to see that the route is not straight?  Or is the answer:  Yes, he

25     wouldn't be able to?

Page 31924

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person could not know that.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Now --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Now, perhaps to follow-up on that area.  If we're talking about

 7     an RRU-800 device, in order to intercept both sides of a conversation

 8     relayed by that device, how many listening posts would the enemy side

 9     need to have to hear both sides of the conversation?

10        A.   Radio relay devices RRU-800 work in duplex, which means that the

11     transmission and the receiving frequency are separate, which means that a

12     participant is listening in on one frequency and speaking on another.

13     And on the opposite side, it's vice versa.  The person who is trying to

14     listen in on that conversation has to find himself first on the same

15     straight line along which this conversation is taking place.  And for

16     good-quality listening, he has to have two receivers, and with one

17     receiver on one frequency to listen to one participant and with another

18     receiver on a different frequency to listen to the second participant

19     because the transmission frequencies of the two participants are

20     different.

21        Q.   And if we assume that the two original participants on the VRS

22     node are points A and B, in relation to points A and B where would those

23     two listening nodes of the enemy side have to be situated?

24        A.   The best place for this station is to be between points A and B,

25     that is to say, at some point C that is between A and B, and from that

Page 31925

 1     point there should be optical visibility with both sides.  And then on

 2     one frequency they listen to one participant and using another frequency

 3     they listen to the other participant, and then this is compressed and

 4     then the entire conversation is obtained.  That is the best way of

 5     intercepting communications.

 6        Q.   But did that scenario -- I take it they would have to be in

 7     between -- is there -- let me take that back and start again.

 8             What about any possibility of having listening posts that are not

 9     located on enemy territory, that is to say on VRS territory, where would

10     the listening post have to be if not located in between A and B to hear

11     both sides of the conversation, again using the A and B designations?

12        A.   In such cases it is best for that listening post to be an

13     extension of this line, the straight line linking A and B, either after A

14     or after B.  However, in such situations the listening post can hear only

15     that frequency coming from one participant.

16        Q.   And then where would the other listening post have to be situated

17     to hear the other part of the conversation?

18        A.   One listening post should be situated before point A -- or

19     rather, behind point A and the other one behind point B, I beg your

20     pardon.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Or between A and B still?  Not necessarily beyond B,

23     but could also between A and B, whereas the other one is, to say so,

24     before A.  Is that correctly understood?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correctly understood, but

Page 31926

 1     Mr. Ivetic asked about situations when it is impossible for it to be

 2     between A and B.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Would your answers be any different if it was an RRU-1 radio

 6     relay device in question?

 7        A.   They have the same characteristics as far as electromagnetic

 8     waves are concerned.

 9        Q.   Were there circumstances in the Drina Corps where both an RRU-1

10     and an RRU-800 were both used to convey a single communication?

11        A.   Yes.  If between them there is a node and if this communication

12     is between these two stretches.  So in one the communication is through

13     RRU-800 and this same communication is conveyed through RRU-1, such

14     possibilities exist as well.

15        Q.   What about on the same line?  One direction being RRU-800 and the

16     other direction being RRU-1, did that exist in the Drina Corps?

17        A.   Well, that's precisely what I have explained, that that is the

18     way it was.

19        Q.   And now in order to be able to follow both sides of such a

20     conversation conveyed over both an RRU-1 and an RRU-800, how many

21     locations would the other side need to have as listening posts to hear

22     both sides of that conversation?

23        A.   Well, the best-case scenario would involve two groups.  One would

24     have to be along the stretch where RRU-1 is and it should be between

25     points A and B, and the other group that would be listening in would be

Page 31927

 1     listening to what is conveyed through RRU-800, again ideally being

 2     between points A and B.  In all other circumstances, it is four groups

 3     that are indispensable, four groups to listen in in order to have a

 4     quality recording of a conversation.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'd now like to --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- I'm looking at the clock.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah, we can take the break now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Where you earlier said that Mr. Ivetic asked you

10     about where it would be impossible to be between A and B, I think he said

11     that if it was on VRS-controlled territory.  So there was an implied

12     assumption that there was no way of intercepting anything as long as the

13     signal travelled through -- between A and B travelled exclusively through

14     VRS-controlled territory.  That's what is --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Between A and B.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- implied.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Between A and B, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Between A and B.  That's what I said.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to

21     2.00, after the witness has left the courtroom.

22             You may follow the usher.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is Mr. Lukic back?  Not yet?

25             MR. IVETIC:  We've sent a message and we have to check to see.

Page 31928

 1     He should be here or he should be here shortly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if he's here -- because we want to deal with

 3     the examination of the witness, we could do that after the break as well.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That would be preferable.  I'll make sure he's here

 5     at the beginning of the next session.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll then start after the break with that.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue with the examination of the

12     witness, there are two matters which I would like to deal with -- or

13     perhaps even three.

14             The first one is the request by the Defence that Mr. Sasa Lukic

15     would be allowed to examine witnesses in court.  It was on the 16th of

16     February that the Defence requested that Mr. Sasa Lukic be permitted to

17     examine witnesses.  The Defence provided further information on

18     Mr. Lukic's background on the 17th of February, and the Prosecution

19     indicated that it did not oppose the request.

20             The Chamber has some concerns about granting the request mainly

21     because Mr. Sasa Lukic was involved in situations of questionable

22     statement-taking practices in the past.  I specifically refer to the

23     discussions in court on that topic with regard to the statements of

24     Defence Witnesses Batinic and Sehovac.  The discussion in court revealed

25     possible misconduct by Mr. Sasa Lukic.  Lead counsel for the Defence even

Page 31929

 1     admitted to certain misconduct when he stated that he, and I quote you,

 2     Mr. Lukic, "screamed at his investigators."  This can be found at

 3     transcript page 22605, not the screaming but the expression by Mr. Lukic.

 4             Despite these concerns and also considering the Defence's

 5     workload, the Chamber hereby grants the request, however, only on a

 6     limited basis.  Mr. Sasa Lukic is permitted to examine one of the

 7     upcoming witnesses and make related procedural submissions.  For any

 8     examinations of other witnesses, new authorisation must be sought.  As is

 9     the case with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Petrusic, during an examination

10     conducted by Mr. Sasa Lukic, lead counsel or co-counsel for Mr. Mladic

11     must be present in the courtroom in order to supervise.

12             I again stress that counsel is instructed to very carefully

13     supervise Mr. Sasa Lukic in light of prior incidents and the Chamber will

14     do the same in accordance with its duty under Rule 90(F).

15             I should add to this that the Chamber just received or had a look

16     at the original of Mr. Mladic agreeing with Mr. Sasa Lukic examining

17     witnesses in court, which should be filed.

18             Then I briefly with another matter, which is about the

19     video-conference link motion for (redacted) and the testimony of

20     other -- sorry, yes, we have to move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31930











11  Pages 31930-31931 redacted.  Private session.















Page 31932

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             Before we continue I'd like to read one other decision.  The

 6     Chamber will now deliver its decision on the expertise of John Clark in

 7     regard to the exhumation of the Tomasica mass grave.

 8             On the 26th of August of last year, the Prosecution filed a

 9     notice of disclosure of John Clark's expert report related to the

10     Tomasica mass grave pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and

11     Evidence.  On the 18th of December, the Chamber granted the Defence

12     request of the 8th of September for an extension of time to file its

13     Rule 94 bis(B) notice.  The Defence responded on the 22nd of December,

14     objecting to the Prosecution's notice of disclosure of expert reports

15     related to the Tomasica mass grave.

16             The Defence submits that the Prosecution be ordered to supplement

17     its submission regarding Clark to meet the minimum threshold required by

18     94 bis or alternatively that Clark be disqualified as an expert and that

19     his report be rejected.  While the Defence does not dispute Clark's

20     knowledge and expertise in the field of forensic pathology, it contends

21     that this report exceeds the scope of his expertise and it takes issue

22     with the strong suspicion of bias in parts of the report.  The Defence

23     also challenges the methodology and reliability of the proffered report.

24             With respect to the applicable law concerning expert evidence,

25     the Chamber recalls and refers to its 19th of October, 2012, decision

Page 31933

 1     concerning Richard Butler.  On the basis of Clark's curriculum vitae, the

 2     Chamber is satisfied that he has specialised knowledge in the field of

 3     forensic pathology.  Such knowledge may be of assistance to the Chamber

 4     in understanding issues related to the evidence on the exhumation of the

 5     Tomasica grave-site.  In this regard, the Chamber also notes its decision

 6     of the 24th of May, 2013, recognising Clark as an expert.

 7             With regard to the Defence request to cross-examine the witness,

 8     the Chamber notes that the Prosecution plans to call Clark as part of its

 9     re-opening case.  The Defence therefore will have the opportunity to

10     cross-examine him.

11             As for any of the arguments raised by the Defence related to the

12     methodology, reliability, and exceeding of expertise of Clark's report,

13     the Chamber considers that these are matters that can be and should be

14     addressed during the cross-examination of the witness.  The Defence will

15     also have an opportunity to fully explore the witness -- the witness's

16     alleged bias in the course of cross-examination or can address it by

17     means of an expert opinion in reply.

18             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides pursuant to

19     Rule 94 bis that Witness Clark may be recalled to testify as an expert

20     witness and shall be made available for cross-examination by the Defence.

21     It denies the Defence request to order the Prosecution to supplement its

22     submission and denies the Defence request to disqualify John Clark as an

23     expert.  The Chamber defers its decision on the admission of the report

24     and its annexes to the time of the witness's testimony.

25             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.  Could the witness be

Page 31934

 1     escorted into the courtroom.

 2             Perhaps we could very briefly deal with a remaining matter from

 3     the testimony of Vladimir Radojcic.  On the 15th of December of last

 4     year, the Prosecution brought to the Chamber's attention via an e-mail

 5     that Exhibit P6955 was also admitted as Exhibit P4424.  On the 23rd of

 6     January of this year, the Chamber inquired in court if the Defence had

 7     any objections to vacating Exhibit P6955.  On the 26th of January, the

 8     Defence e-mailed the Chamber, advising it that it had -- that it objects

 9     to the translations of P6955 and P4424.  The Chamber hereby instructs the

10     Registry to mark P6955 as not admitted and invites the Defence to liaise

11     with CLSS to request a verification of the translation of P4424.  And the

12     Chamber further establishes for the record that the associated exhibit to

13     Witness Radojcic's statement 65 ter 1D2153 corresponds to the exhibit

14     admitted as P4424.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jevdjevic, apologies for continuing with other

17     matters when you entered the courtroom.  Mr. Ivetic will now continue his

18     examination-in-chief.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             If we could please have D879 in e-court.

22        Q.   And, sir, have you seen this document before?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And can you tell us what it depicts?

25        A.   This is a report in which the chief of communications of the

Page 31935

 1     Drina Corps sent information about radio relay communications to the

 2     chief of communications of the Main Staff.  The essence of this

 3     information has to do with frequencies that radio relay equipment in the

 4     Drina Corps operated on.

 5        Q.   Based on your knowledge and information, did the Drina Corps

 6     change the frequencies used for their radio relay network subsequent to

 7     the date of this document that we have before us?

 8        A.   To the best of my recollection, no.

 9        Q.   If one were to change the frequencies of the VRS radio relay

10     network, what can you tell us about the type of paper trail or paperwork

11     that would be expected to result from the same?

12        A.   For that kind of activity, an order is required from the chief of

13     communications of the Main Staff.

14        Q.   And what about at the other levels down the chain and up the

15     chain?

16        A.   The chief of communications of the Main Staff would, as required,

17     order a change of frequency to one of the head of communications in the

18     corps; and then the chief of communications in the corps would forward

19     that order to the chief of communications at brigade level.

20        Q.   And would there be any correspondence or paperwork going in the

21     opposite direction?

22        A.   Yes, it would be necessary to send a report on the completion of

23     that activity.

24        Q.   Could any individual operator in a subordinate unit to the

25     communications battalion of their own accord change one of the

Page 31936

 1     frequencies being used?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Could you, sir, as komandant of the communications battalion, on

 4     your own change one of the frequencies that was being used for radio

 5     relay communications?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And how about the chief of communications of the Drina Corps,

 8     could they of their own accord change one of the frequencies being used

 9     for radio relay communications?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could I seek clarification.

15             You were asked whether they could change.  Now, are you telling

16     us that they were not -- they did not have the authority to do that or

17     that they practically could not change the frequencies?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A change of frequency cannot be

19     done without authorisation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you say you can, that is, you're not allowed

21     to do it.  But my question was whether you could do it in violation of

22     what you were ordered to do or what you were not allowed to do?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A change of frequencies is a very

24     complicated procedure.  It has to be harmonised with all the other

25     carriers of communication and one could not change frequencies without a

Page 31937

 1     detailed plan of communications that was in the hands of the chief of

 2     communications of the Main Staff.  Because if everybody changed

 3     frequencies as they pleased, then total chaos and confusion would ensue

 4     because people would be then operating on frequencies used by somebody

 5     else.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, least that would be a risk and the receiving

 7     party should be informed about it as well if I understand testimony we

 8     received earlier as well.  So technically it might be possible but it

 9     could give rise to quite some problems and it needed a lot of

10     co-ordination to do so.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be true that the more complex the relay is,

13     that is, several steps rather than in one step, the more complicated such

14     an exercise would be?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not necessarily.  It's a very

16     sensitive affair to change frequencies because many other participants

17     primarily in the civilian structure, such as the television, the police,

18     radio stations, and other broadcasters who have their frequencies on the

19     air know exactly which frequencies can be changed and that plan of

20     communications was only in the possession of the chief of communications,

21     only he could authorise a change of frequency.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I made a distinction between authorisation and

23     technically exercising, but I leave it to that.  You've answered my

24     questions.

25             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

Page 31938

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 2        Q.   Now, with your knowledge of the technical specifications and the

 3     performance of both the RRU-800 and the RRU-1 radio relay devices, was

 4     there a technical possibility for them to transmit two channels on two

 5     frequencies but for those conversations to bleed over and be heard on

 6     other frequencies other than those two transmitting frequencies?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If we can briefly move into private session.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31939











11  Page 31939-31940 redacted.  Private session.















Page 31941

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             Witness, in the document that was just shown to you about

25     frequencies, we also read the azimuth which is referred to several times.

Page 31942

 1     I always understood the azimuth to be the -- more or less the compass

 2     direction in which the signal was sent.  Is that a correct understanding?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Azimuth is the angle that caps the

 4     north direction with the movement of our movement.  So if we determine

 5     north and draw a line along a circle to the line cutting through the

 6     circle along which we move, that would be the azimuth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I see always numbers like 28, 40, but

 8     nothing above 90 or 120.  Is that just a coincidence or did you use a

 9     certain specific measuring system for the azimuth?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Azimuth is very easily determined

11     on the map and the person who wrote this report probably had radio relay

12     lines plotted on the map and was able to measure the azimuth.  So it was

13     the chief of communications of the Drina Corps who indicated these

14     particular parameters for the azimuth.  He is the one who made the

15     report.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but are these codes?  Because I see number 7,

17     number 8, 25, 38, but nothing above 40, which would, if you look at a

18     map, would limit the direction of broadcast very much in a very small

19     area.  Or is it a reference to a code?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my judgement, this should not be

21     a code because it's our document, it shouldn't be a code.  It should be

22     the azimuth expressed in degrees.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then it would only be from north to, well,

24     let's say, north-east that you would take as a direction for sending your

25     signals.  Nowhere -- not in any of the other parts of the compass.

Page 31943

 1     Which -- is that just a coincidence?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  I didn't

 3     write this document.  I don't know what the officer who authored it was

 4     guided by, but I completely agree with you and what you said.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Ivetic, it's time to adjourn for the day.  You're still on

 7     schedule?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honours.  I believe I was at

 9     two hours and three minutes before we started and I think we added

10     another 20 minutes or so, so we should be about --

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Two hours and 12 minutes are used.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Then I am on track to complete at three hours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- so most likely you'll finish in the

15     first session tomorrow morning if the Chamber does not intervene again

16     and again.  But it's technical stuff and we'd like to understand it and

17     sometimes some questions are needed for that purpose.

18             Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  I

19     would instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in any way

20     with whomever about your testimony, same instruction as yesterday.  You

21     may now follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and with apologies for the

24     delay.  We resume tomorrow, the 19th of February, 9.30 in the morning, in

25     this same courtroom, I.

Page 31944

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

 3                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.