Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32212

 1                           Wednesday, 25 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone that are in or just outside

 6     this courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that both parties would have brief

12     preliminary matters to raise.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, Defence first.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As briefly as possible,

15     Your Honour, since we took it upon yourself yesterday I would just like

16     to give you information about the exhibits that we used with

17     Witness Milojica.  At -- the Defence is not going to tender numbers

18     1D03024 and 1D30305 -- so 03025.  And we stand by the proposal to tender

19     into evidence 1D03628 and 1D4969.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That is hereby on the record.  One second, please.

22             Yes, the documents you're not tendering, you tendered more or

23     less in the 92 ter motion, but I do understand that you do not persist to

24     that tendering.

25             The Chamber will decide in due time on the remaining matters.

Page 32213

 1             Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, everyone.

 3             Regarding the document examiner's expert report, 65 ter 32125a,

 4     we have reviewed Mr. Ivetic's objection.  We have, for several hours,

 5     reviewed the jurisprudence on this matter, and while we feel the

 6     situation as it came up in cross -- or excuse me, in direct and re-direct

 7     was rather unique.  We feel that overall it is not worth or while to

 8     tender this document, and I am -- decided not do so and am withdrawing

 9     the document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.  Mr. McCloskey, it was

11     for exactly same reasons that the Chamber invited the parties to make

12     written submissions rather than to deal with the matter immediately in

13     court.  You've decided how to proceed with it, and it's hereby on the

14     record, and it saves the Defence some time.

15             We have MFI'd the document under number P7148 and, therefore,

16     that number is now vacated.

17             If there's nothing else, is the Defence ready to call its next

18     witness, which, as far as the Chamber understands, would be

19     Mr. Dragutinovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

22     courtroom.

23             Perhaps, meanwhile, for the remaining two exhibits related to

24     the -- associated exhibits in relation to Ratko Milojica there was no

25     objection by the Prosecution.  Therefore, 1D03628 would receive,

Page 32214

 1     Madam Registrar, number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 1D03628 will receive the number just

 3     vacated, which would be P7148.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Apologies, Your Honours.  In that case it would

 6     be D911.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D911 is admitted into evidence.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

12     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now

13     handed out to you.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic.  Please be seated.

17             Mr. Dragutinovic, if you would allow us for a second to deal with

18     a matter which we were in when you entered the courtroom, it will not

19     take more than -- it will take less than a minute.

20             Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to 1D04969.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number for 1D04969 will be

22     D912.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D912 is admitted.

24             Mr. Dragutinovic, you will first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

25     You find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

Page 32215

 1     Mr. Mladic.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3                           WITNESS:  MIODRAG DRAGUTINOVIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   For the record, I would like you to speak slowly and state your

 9     name and surname.

10        A.   My name is Miodrag Dragutinovic.  I was born on the 21st of

11     March, 1950, in the village of Gojcin, municipality of Kalesija,

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I'm married.  I have two children.  I'm retired now.

13     I'm a pensioner.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us where it is that you live

15     today?

16        A.   I live in the neighbourhood of Celopek in the area of Zvornik.

17        Q.   Could you please tell the court about your professional training.

18        A.   I completed a technical vocational school and I'm a land

19     surveyor.  I have a secondary education.

20        Q.   Tell me, did you have any kind of military education?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Your last question, the answer to your

23     last question is found entirely in paragraph 1.

24             The question you put to the witness invites him to tell us what

25     is found in paragraph 2 of his statement.  Let's try to avoid repetition,

Page 32216

 1     Mr. Stojanovic, and perhaps since the witness is a 92 ter witness, we

 2     could proceed with the attestation of his statement or --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we proposed to deal

 6     with this witness viva voce.  That is what we announced, and we also

 7     stated the time.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I must have missed that, which I, depending on

 9     how it has reached us.  If we missed it, then --

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we asked for an hour and a

11     half and we said viva voce.  We're going to change the status of the

12     witness, and I think we provided timely information on that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll just try to find out -- I may have

14     missed it.  Perhaps my colleagues have missed it as well.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we were informed of that, but there's not

18     been created any sort of practice on getting the Judges to approve such a

19     thing or not.  So perhaps that would be more helpful because it does

20     change things quite a bit when we go from one to the other, especially at

21     the last minute.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll find out where we missed your

23     information, if we missed any of that.

24             Meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  Thank

Page 32217

 1     you.

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Dragutinovic, my last question was if you could tell us

 3     about your military education and training.

 4        A.   When I did my regular military service, I completed the reserve

 5     officers' school in the engineering centre of Karlovac in Croatia.  After

 6     completing this school, I was promoted to the rank of second lieutenant.

 7     Otherwise, this schooling went on for a year.  So I now have the status

 8     of a reserve officer.

 9        Q.   When the war started in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, what was your

10     status?

11        A.   I was captain first class then.

12        Q.   Did you join the Army of Republika Srpska at any point in time?

13        A.   In 1991 as a reserve officer, I was mobilised into the former

14     JNA, and I remained there for about four months.  After the JNA left

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of May, 1992, all of us who were from the

16     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina stayed on in TO units, so I stayed on in

17     a TO unit too.  It was a unit at brigade level, in the Bijeljina

18     garrison.

19        Q.   Do you remember the name of that TO brigade with its headquarters

20     in Bijeljina?

21        A.   Well, in the JNA it was called the 17th Majevica Brigade, and in

22     the beginning of 1992 or, rather, after the JNA left the territory of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, after that agreement was reached, the unit that I

24     stayed on in was the 1st Semberija Brigade.

25        Q.   Thank you.  After the Army of Republika Srpska was established,

Page 32218

 1     did you join the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   After the Army of Republika Srpska was established, from the TO

 3     units, I was just promoted to member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   Do you remember what your duties were in terms of establishment

 5     and what unit you were in, in the Army of Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   In the Semberija Brigade, I was in the operations department.  I

 7     was a desk officer.  And when I joined the Zvornik Brigade in

 8     August 1992, I was, yet again, a desk officer in the operations

 9     department.

10        Q.   Were you promoted at any point in time in terms of establishment

11     as well?

12        A.   Yes.  Later on, I was promoted assistant Chief of Staff for

13     operations and teaching and otherwise I was promoted to the rank of major

14     and that is the rank that I held until the end of the war.

15        Q.   What was the name of the brigade where you were assistant Chief

16     of Staff for operations and teaching?

17        A.   The 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, I think it may be better that the

20     translation normally operations and training not teaching.  I'm -- I'm

21     sure the Defence would agree with that.  It's just a translation issue.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether it is.  Because I do not know

23     what the original language was.

24             But, Mr. Stojanovic, training, teaching?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Literally it is operations and

Page 32219

 1     teaching.  That's that work.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, this is a -- as -- as the Court knows, a

 4     position in all brigades, corps, and the Main Staff, and it has always in

 5     this building been translated as operations and training.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it's clear how you understand it and

 7     that you -- of course, the Chamber is not in a position at this moment to

 8     say that -- not even knowing what the original language is, what was

 9     used, to have any comment on the translation, the interpretation of the

10     words spoken by Mr. Stojanovic but you have drawn our attention to it,

11     Mr. McCloskey, and I think we could leave it to that for the time being.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, this is what I'm interested in:  In 1995, what

15     did the personnel command structure of the Zvornik Brigade look like?

16     Who was the brigade commander?

17        A.   The brigade commander was Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.

18        Q.   Who was the Chief of Staff?

19        A.   The Chief of Staff was Major - then - Dragan Obrenovic.

20        Q.   Formerly and according to establishment did he also carry out the

21     duties of deputy commander of the brigade?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The brigade commander, how many assistant commanders did he have

24     on the staff of the brigade?

25        A.   The commander had an assistant commander for morale; and

Page 32220

 1     assistant commander for security; and an assistant commander for

 2     logistics.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 4     have document 65 ter 05642 in e-court.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, Mr. Stojanovic, could

 6     you briefly tell us exactly when the Chamber was informed that this was a

 7     viva voce witness?  Because I -- the last thing I found was a message of

 8     the 23rd of February which gives corrections to the statement rather than

 9     announcing that it would be a viva voce witness.  If you would have that

10     available, then we can further verify what we missed, if we missed

11     anything.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will check and I will

14     tell you, Your Honour.  At this point in time I'm not in a position to do

15     so.

16        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps Mr. McCloskey could also assist in telling

18     us when he received the message because it may be that we then received

19     the message as well.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we received that, the sheet that we're all

21     familiar with of the schedule on 12 February.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then on the 23rd of February, we receive

23     a -- a correction to the statement which was ... what's the use of

24     sending the Chamber information about the statement what is to be

25     corrected what turned out during proofing if you're not using that

Page 32221

 1     statement at all, Mr. Stojanovic?

 2             And, Mr. McCloskey --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The reason -- the reason,

 4     Your Honour, was the practice that we had when examining the previous

 5     witness, when at one point in time, the Prosecution asked the Defence to

 6     say when it was that they had informed the OTP about Witness Jevdjevic

 7     having changed what he stated in his previous statement and we had the

 8     discussion about the two proofings regarding this witness who testified

 9     viva voce.  After that decision of yours then I decided, out of an

10     abundance of caution, to inform the Prosecution that the witness

11     indicated to us a certain contradiction, if I can put it that way,

12     between two paragraphs of this statement.

13             So that is why I did that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine for the Prosecution.  I don't think it

15     affects the Chamber in any way if you don't want to use that statement.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I can tell you that these

17     statements will be something that will be relevant and used in this

18     testimony.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I'm -- yes.  But that still doesn't

20     resolve the initial matter which is, Mr. McCloskey, can you see anything

21     that the Chamber was addressed in the message that was sent to you that

22     the witness would be presented as a viva voce witness?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, our sheet shows viva voce, and Ms. Stewart

24     is pointing me to Mladic case chamber so we do see you on the address

25     list on that date.

Page 32222

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was exactly on what date.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  12 February, 1530 hours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.  We'll check that and see whether

 4     there's any communication problem within Chambers which, of course, we

 5     would immediately and seriously address if that's the case.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you can clarify what you

 7     mean by the usual sheet.  Do you mean the Defence exhibits for witness

 8     Dragutinovic, 92 ter/viva voce.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It is entitled, "Schedule of witnesses for week

10     16th or 19 February."  It's got the boxes.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yeah.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So we have, Mr. Stojanovic, are we supposed to if we

13     have a 92 ter motion, which is not withdrawn, and if we get messages

14     about what documents will be used, whether you will further stick to

15     associated exhibits, et cetera, that we have to find on such a list

16     without any further attention being given to it, without any further

17     explanation to the Chamber, we have then to suddenly understand that this

18     has become a viva voce witness.  Is that the position of the Defence?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  If it was our

20     omission to inform you specifically, not only using this customary

21     procedure, then it is an omission on our part.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not a customary procedure.  And, indeed,

24     I found now the list the witnesses to be scheduled in the next upcoming

25     weeks, and there it is said viva voce 1.5 hours but this is the only

Page 32223

 1     information we received.  That is exactly the sheet which Mr. McCloskey

 2     was talking about.  This has never come -- was never coming up before.

 3     This is not the normal procedure in this court.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In addition, Mr. President, we have a witness

 6     schedule that was sent to the parties on 1 February 2015 where he was

 7     listed viva voce.  But as I noted there has not been a process, which

 8     would be helpful, I think.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stojanovic, next time if you change that,

10     don't provide us with a puzzle but provide us with clear, unambiguous

11     information, because we spent a lot of time - we do - on preparing

12     ourselves for the testimony of those witnesses, and we are not amused by

13     being surprised in the way as you did.

14             I find a document the 17th of February which still announced

15     Mr. Dragutinovic as 92 ter/viva voce.  That is two and a half weeks after

16     you already apparently had decided not to call him as a -- not as a

17     92 ter motion.

18             We further find -- let me just check.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  When I refer to the 17th of February, it might be an

21     error to that extent that it may be the date of the printing of that

22     document.  We'll carefully consider it, but I repeat, that we're not

23     amused.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32224

 1        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, in front of you, you see a schematic.  I would

 2     kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise this

 3     document.

 4        A.   This document shows the structure of command of the

 5     Zvornik Brigade.  I was shown this document in 2001 when I provided my

 6     statement to the Tribunal's investigators.  I signed it as my own, but I

 7     had some corrections to make.  I believe that this document reflects the

 8     formation of the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

 9        Q.   When it comes to your position as the assistant Chief of Staff of

10     operations and training, is it properly entered into this schematic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Within the system of command and control, who was your immediate

13     superior?

14        A.   It was the Chief of Staff.  However, when it comes to the brigade

15     structure, all the command members at any given moment could be

16     subordinated to the brigade commander.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender

19     65 ter 05642.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 05642 receives number D913.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D913 is admitted.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, let's go back to the month of July of 1995.

25             What was your specific task with regard to the military

Page 32225

 1     activities surrounding Srebrenica?

 2        A.   When it comes to the military activities surrounding Srebrenica,

 3     the Zvornik Brigade received its task from the corps command.  It was a

 4     preparatory order and it was received on the 2nd of July.  On that same

 5     day, the brigade also received its combat order containing all the tasks

 6     for the units of the Zvornik Brigade.  They were to be carried out in the

 7     Srebrenica sector.

 8        Q.   Can you remember, can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the

 9     specific task of your own unit?

10        A.   In the combat order and before that in the preparatory order, the

11     Zvornik Brigade received a task to establish a unit equalling a light

12     battalion of up to 400 men and to be on stand-by until the 4th of

13     July and to be ready to engage on its own independent axis.  The axis was

14     not specified at that moment, neither was the sector.

15             In the combat order, however, those tasks were explained in

16     detail, and we were fully aware of the tasks that the corps command had

17     for us.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What were those specific tasks that your unit was

19     assigned?

20        A.   As part of the combat order, in its first part - and the combat

21     order was issued by the command of the Drina Corps - we were told about

22     the intentions and the tasks assumed to be undertaken by the enemy.  Also

23     the tasks and assessments of the command of the Drina Corps as to what to

24     do in order to prevent any activities of the 2nd Corps of the BiH Army.

25     And after that, tasks for the units, including the units of the Zvornik

Page 32226

 1     Brigade.

 2        Q.   And now I would like to call up 65 ter 04293.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand what the tasks of this unit

 4     were from that last answer, and I know have you persisted to try and find

 5     out what they were.  Are you satisfied that you've got the tasks now?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will continue exploring

 7     operative tasks when the next document is displayed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a form of leading where you asked someone

10     for the tasks and then show him the tasks.  It's not a particularly --

11     matter of -- of being contested, but he did not answer the question about

12     the tasks and now we see the order that lists the tasks.  So I think it

13     would be best for the question to be answered before the document is

14     shown.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I consider this to be a general observation about

16     leading questions, Mr. Stojanovic, without any direct consequences for

17     this matter which apparently is not in dispute.  But it's not for the

18     first time that the technique of questioning witnesses in

19     examination-in-chief has been raised, and I would like you to pay more

20     attention to it.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And you will

23     see that the document that we have on the screen does not suggest

24     anything and does not speak about those tasks.  However, I am happy to

25     entertain your objection about leading questions.

Page 32227

 1        Q.   Sir, in front you, there is an order.  Could you please look at

 2     paragraph 1.

 3             My first question:  What is this about?  What kind of an order is

 4     this?

 5        A.   This is a preparatory order of the command of the Zvornik Brigade

 6     to establish a unit that will be engaged in the Srebrenica combat sector.

 7        Q.   When it comes to this tactical group that was to be established

 8     by the Zvornik Brigade, who were its members?

 9        A.   Pursuant to the combat order of the corps command, and I

10     understand that a minute ago that I did not provide a full answer about

11     its tasks and I intend to answer --

12        Q.   I'll come back to that.  Could you please answer my previous

13     question first.

14        A.   The Zvornik Brigade, pursuant to that order, received the task to

15     establish a unit equalling a light battalion and based on that order, the

16     Zvornik Brigade took into account the intention of the commander and I

17     drafted the document and elaborated it.  Indeed, it did establish a

18     tactical group, that was Tactical Group 1.  That's what we called it.

19             In this order, we explain how that tactical group should be

20     composed.

21        Q.   Just one question.  To the best of your recollection how many men

22     did Tactical Group 1 have?

23        A.   Tactical Group 1 did not have more than 400 men.

24        Q.   My next question, as can you see in this document, there is

25     reference to the armoured mechanised company.  What was it composed of?

Page 32228

 1        A.   The tactical group was based on two combat groups.  One combat

 2     groups was formed of a mobile unit from the Zvornik Brigade, a detachment

 3     which was a reserve unit for active combat.  And combat group 2 which was

 4     established and had a temporary composition.  Its members came from the

 5     battalion of the brigade, whereas the armoured mechanised company was

 6     attached to the tactical group as support and consisted of four tanks,

 7     four APCs, one anti-aircraft cannon Praga, as well as two Strela-2M to

 8     protect the armoured mechanised company against an air strike.

 9        Q.   And now could you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the

10     specific task of your tactical group, which is Tactical Group 1 in

11     respect of Srebrenica?

12             Could you please first answer the previous question, i.e., what

13     was the general task of the units that were deployed in the sector of

14     Srebrenica.

15             Go ahead tell us and then answer my last question as well.

16        A.   Pursuant to the preparatory order of the command of the

17     Drina Corps and later the combat order of the Drina Corps the task of the

18     unit that were deployed and were to be deployed in the Srebrenica sector

19     was for the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa to be separated from each

20     other and to narrow down the manoeuvre space of the 28th Division which

21     was in the protected area of Srebrenica, as well as the protected area of

22     Zepa.  That brigade had not been demilitarised, had not been disarmed.

23     It was well equipped and in the spring of 1995 based on all the

24     intelligence, it was well prepared for combat.  Its task, according to

25     all the assessments, was to be used as a unit which would act from the

Page 32229

 1     sector of the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa in concert with the

 2     other units and attack all the units of the Drina Corps.  Those other

 3     units were the units of the 2nd Corps which were to attack the

 4     Drina Corps and the ultimate goal was for the units of the BiH army to

 5     get to the Drina river.

 6        Q.   What was the specific task within the overall strategic task of

 7     Krivaja 95?  What was the specific task of your Tactical Group 1?

 8        A.   The task of Tactical Group 1 pursuant to the Drina Corps order

 9     which was later elaborated, was to deploy units to the Zeleni Jadar

10     sector, to get to the separation line, Bukova Glava-Javor-Zeleni Jadar

11     and to launch an attack along the axis Zeleni Jadar, Pusmulic village,

12     Bojne.  The more specific task was to dispel the enemy forces on the axis

13     of the attack and to get to the Rajne village-Zivkovo Brdo line.  And the

14     next task was to get to the Bojne village sector.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

17     tender 65 ter 04293 into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 04293 receives number D914.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, when you arrived in the sector that was

23     assigned to you pursuant to this task, when was that?

24        A.   The unit was set up on the 4th of July.  We marched to the

25     Srebrenica sector in two columns.  One column consisted of the armoured

Page 32230

 1     mechanized company.  They started marching along the Zvornik-Bratunac

 2     line and got to the Pribicevac sector on that same day, on the 4th of

 3     July, and the rest of the tactical group marched along the

 4     Bratunac-Zvornik-Skelani axis and they spent the night in Jezera village

 5     and then in the morning of the 5th of July, they arrived in the

 6     Zeleni Jadar sector.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down,

 8     especially when enumerating all the villages.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Especially if you list names, could you please slow

10     down but also in general, could you slow down your speed of speech.

11             Please proceed.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And now could you please tell the Trial Chamber when the combat

15     of Tactical Group 1 started?

16        A.   Pursuant to the Drina Corps order for tactical -- for combat

17     activity, combat started on the 6th of July early in the morning.

18        Q.   Did you receive any specific orders regarding UNPROFOR

19     observation points along the axis of movement of your unit?

20        A.   On that axis, there was an observation point in the Biljeg

21     feature sector.  That was along the axis of movement of Tactical Group 1

22     of the Zvornik Brigade.

23        Q.   Did you have any specific instructions as to how you should treat

24     UNPROFOR members at that observation point?

25        A.   We all knew what the function of UNPROFOR was.  Our task was to

Page 32231

 1     let UNPROFOR do their job and that we should try not to disturb them or

 2     engage in any other way against the UNPROFOR observation point.

 3        Q.   When it comes to this observation point, what was the position of

 4     the 28th Division?

 5        A.   That gave rise to a problem which escalated later when the

 6     UNPROFOR units left the Biljeg observation point and the problem was as

 7     follows:

 8             On the left and on the right from the UNPROFOR observation point,

 9     some 50 to 100 metres away, there were defence positions of the

10     28th Division so that the observation point was effectively along the

11     line and part of the defence of the 28th Division.

12        Q.   Did it come a time when you had to engage the crew of the UN

13     observation point?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you had any

16     specific orders with regard to the civilian population, should you had

17     any encounters with them within the combat area?

18        A.   In any case, the standing order was that the objective of our

19     combat activities were not civilians, was not the enclave, or UNPROFOR

20     units.  Our objective was exclusively the 28th Division which was a

21     permanent danger for the units of the Drina Corps.

22        Q.   When you were engaged in combat, did you actually have encounters

23     with the civilian population from the enclave?

24        A.   No, we did not have any direct contact with them.  However, from

25     our reconnaissance position, and that was the reconnaissance position of

Page 32232

 1     the Howitzer detachment of Tactical Group 1 which was our tactical group,

 2     we could see the movements of the civilian population as soon as combat

 3     started.  The civilian population was moving along the axis Slapovic,

 4     left to the units of Tactical Group 1, across Bajramovic, towards

 5     Srebrenica.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Court in this courtroom to

 7     the best of your recollection how things followed after that, from the

 8     6th until the 10th of July?

 9        A.   On the 6th of July, the units of the tactical group were not very

10     successful.  They took part of the features on the axis of attack.  They

11     had a certain number of wounded.  And in view of the result, the

12     commander of the tactical group, Tactical Group 1, Vinko Pandurevic, he

13     stopped combat activities.  He called in the commanders of the tactical

14     groups and made a decision to group forces and the tactical group was

15     supposed to attack along the axis Javor-Biljeg-Ravne.

16             The task envisaged was supposed to take place on the next day in

17     the early morning hours.  That is, the 7th of July.  The units were

18     gathered there, taken from positions and gathered there, and prepared for

19     combat activities in the morning hours of the 7th of July.

20        Q.   What were the results of this combat?

21        A.   In the morning hours of the 7th of July, combat activities did

22     not start because there was a lot of rain and fog so this attack was

23     postponed until the weather conditions got better.

24             The weather conditions did not get better all the way up until

25     the 8th, the afternoon of the 8th, when the units started their attack,

Page 32233

 1     and struck forcefully, came to the Biljeg area and to the left arrived at

 2     the forested elevations that we in our own jargon called Tri Sise these

 3     are dominant features above the road from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica,

 4     that is to say, just above the road.

 5        Q.   What happened in the battlefield on the 10th of July?

 6        A.   Before that, on the 9th of July, we continued combat activities

 7     and reached the line Rajne-Zivkovo Brdo.  That was the closer task from

 8     the order of the Drina Corps.  On the 10th in the early morning hours,

 9     the 28th Division carried out a counter-attack, pushed back our forces to

10     the area of Biljeg, Tri Sise or, rather, above the road

11     Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica and that is where we consolidated and prepared

12     for a counter-attack of our own in an attempt to get back to the line

13     that had been reached the previous day, that is, the line Rajne-Zivkovo

14     Brdo.  In the afternoon hours on the 10th, we took again the hill that we

15     had lost, Zivkovo Brdo, and we got to the village of Rajne on the

16     Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road and there by we carried out this more

17     immediate task from the command of the Drina Corps.  Afterwards,

18     according to the situation that was very favourable for us, combat

19     activities continued, and we got to the Bojne line and that was the next

20     task from the combat task issued by the command of the Drina Corps.

21     Thereby our task was carried out.

22        Q.   Did you get a new combat task at any point in time?

23        A.   I can add that to the left Since Tactical Group 1 was on the main

24     axis of attack, there was Tactical Group 2 that was operating and it was

25     somewhat less successful so we had to wait for them to reach the lines

Page 32234

 1     that they were given by the command of the Drina Corps.  So in the

 2     afternoon hours of the 10th, we received the task of preparing on the

 3     following day, the 11th of July, continuing combat activities along the

 4     Bojne-Srebrenica-Gostilj-Potocari road.

 5        Q.   Do you know who issued that order?

 6        A.   In the afternoon hours of the 10th, in the area of Bojna,

 7     General Krstic arrived there and he gave us the basic tasks.  The

 8     following day, they were spelled out in more concrete terms and

 9     materialised.

10        Q.   On the 11th of July, did you set out to accomplish the next task

11     that you were given by General Krstic?

12        A.   Units prepared to continue combat activities -- excuse me.  Then

13     around midday, units started their axis of attack along the

14     Bojne-Srebrenica-Gostilj-Potocari road, and, at that moment, just before

15     combat started and somewhat after that, NATO aircraft carried out strikes

16     against the units of Tactical Group 1 in the area of Bojna.  However,

17     this did not distract the unit of the Zvornik Brigade and other units and

18     did not stop them from carrying out their tasks further.

19        Q.   Tactical Group 1, was it affected by the NATO bombing in any way?

20        A.   Combat vehicles were destroyed and one ambulance and one command

21     vehicle of the commander of Tactical Group 1, the commander of the

22     Podrinje detachment and then one truck that contained a certain amount of

23     ammunition.  There weren't any other effects.

24        Q.   Were you personally affected by the NATO air-strikes?

25        A.   During the second NATO air-strike, I was near the damaged

Page 32235

 1     vehicles.  These combat vehicles -- well, practically were not combat

 2     vehicles.  It was an ambulance, a command vehicle, and a truck.  They

 3     were bombed yet again.  Since I was nearby, when the missiles hit, the

 4     anti-armour missiles, I suffered a minor contusion.  At first, I didn't

 5     have any particular consequences.

 6        Q.   Where did you personally go after this contusion?

 7        A.   After a while, certain symptoms appeared, namely, headaches,

 8     vomiting, dizziness.  Commander Vinko Pandurevic suggested that I be take

 9     to our logistics units in the Zeleni Jadar area in an ambulance.  We had

10     a medical post there and then a doctor could see me and see what the

11     consequences were and perhaps could send me to Zvornik for further

12     examinations and medical treatment.

13        Q.   Before the break, just one more question.

14             That afternoon and evening on 11th July 1995, how far did

15     Tactical Group 1 get?

16        A.   One can say that except for the 10th and the 8th, 9th, 11th,

17     before the units of Tactical Group 1 from the Zvornik Brigade got there,

18     there was no particular resistance in Srebrenica itself and very quickly

19     the line that was involved in the task was reached.  And that was when

20     arriving at the line to the left of Gostilj, I think 522 is the feature,

21     and on the right-hand side there was another elevation and that is where

22     the group was supposed to stop and spend the night or, rather, be ready

23     for continuing combat activities in accordance with the order of the

24     superior command.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic.

Page 32236

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me

 2     that it's time for the break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It is time for the break.

 4             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may now

 5     follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, coming briefly to what happened

 9     before, this witness, Mr. Dragutinovic, was presented in your Rule 65 ter

10     witness list as a 92 ter witness.

11             On the 1st of February, he was still presented as a 92 ter/viva

12     voce witness.  The same happened on the 6th of February, 92 ter and viva

13     voce.  It was only on the 12th of February that he appears on one of your

14     lists without any further explanation as a viva voce witness.

15             Now, whether you would need leave to change your 92 ter witness

16     list is a matter that could be discussed, but at least it is -- whether

17     the witness is a 92 ter witness or a viva voce witness, clearly appears

18     in the information you have to provide under Rule 65 ter (G) of the Rules

19     of Procedure and Evidence.

20             Now, adding an exhibit to the 65 ter list, you need certainly

21     leave for that.  Whether you would need leave to change the status of a

22     witness is a matter that could still be discussed, but there can be no

23     doubt that if you change the status of a witness on your Rule 65 ter list

24     that at least a clear and unambiguous announcement must be given, which

25     has not been done in this case.

Page 32237

 1             I hereby instruct you that whenever a similar status, change of

 2     status is envisaged by the Defence, that even before announcing the

 3     change that the Chamber should be informed about that intention so that

 4     the Chamber can, if it wishes to do so, further comment on it.

 5             Let that be clear.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from that, Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any

 8     intention to withdraw your 92 ter motion, which you haven't done.  I

 9     mean, if you present a witness as viva voce, wouldn't it be appropriate

10     then to withdraw in, again, unambiguous terms, that you withdraw your

11     92 ter motion.  Yes.

12             I was able to figure this out just in a couple of minutes,

13     Mr. Stojanovic.  You had three weeks to figure that out.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just one small unrelated issue.  I think there's

16     been a translation issue.  The witness I believe it was page 24 mentioned

17     from that the NATO bombing he suffered a contusion.  I believe that that

18     may be concussion.  It's always been concussion before so I don't know if

19     he's changed words or not.  But I just alert that because it does have

20     some significance.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, talking about translations, I noticed,

22     Mr. McCloskey, in the statement which we are supposed not to have read,

23     the 92 ter statement given by the witness, that the "training" is the

24     word rather than "teaching."  And I take it that this is a translation of

25     the same words as used here in court when the witness was questioned on

Page 32238

 1     the matter.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think that's probably right, though, of course,

 3     I don't know the word he used.  If he -- but as an officer, I'm sure he

 4     got the right word, I would think.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason I said, "I take it, it's not a

 6     certainty."

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, if there's anything you'd like to tell us now,

 8     please do so.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, two things.

10             So, yes, we withdraw our proposal for Witness Dragutinovic to be

11     heard in accordance with Rule 92 ter.  We stand by the proposal to hear

12     him viva voce.  From that point of view, we changed his status.

13             And we have also taken note and I believe that in the future

14     there will be other situations like that.  We are going to inform you not

15     only through the witness list of their status but for each and every

16     concrete case, we are going to provide timely information on the change

17     of status.  And that is the practice that we are going to follow in the

18     future, along with our apologies for not having done it now, specifically

19     but only through this motion of the 12th of February, in terms of how the

20     witness is going to be examined.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you carefully re-read

22     your own -- the language you used.  I think whatever language you used

23     the matter is sufficiently clear to the Chamber.  But I would

24     specifically draw your attention to where you said "we are going to

25     provide timely information on the change of status."

Page 32239

 1             Precise language would have been "we are going to provide timely

 2     information on our intention to change the status."

 3             We take a break, and we'll resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, we were talking about the 11th of July and what

10     happened in the afternoon on that day.

11             When -- where did you spend the night between the 11th and the

12     12th of July, 1995?

13        A.   I spent that night in the logistics unit, i.e., in the medical

14     unit of Tactical Group 1 in the Zeleni Jadar sector.

15        Q.   On the 11th of July in the afternoon, did you communicate with

16     Pandurevic who was the commander of tactical group?

17        A.   In the evening on the 11th, the commander arrived in the

18     Zeleni Jadar sector and he gave us our basic task and that was for the

19     logistic unit to move certain equipment as quickly as possible to the

20     Srebrenica sector as well as to the Gostilj sector where units of the

21     Tactical Group 1 were.  We were to prepare to spend the night on the

22     positions reached.  At the same time, he wanted to see me as his

23     operative officer to inquire about my medical condition because I had

24     refused to go to Zvornik for further checkups and treatment.

25        Q.   Could you please tell us, on the 12th, in the morning, what was

Page 32240

 1     the axis of your movement?

 2        A.   In the morning, on the 12th of July, the logistics base in

 3     Zeleni Jadar was again visited by the commander.  He gave us our task and

 4     that was for the logistics organs, the whole logistics and everything

 5     that belonged to it, to move to the Srebrenica sector as quickly as

 6     possible.

 7        Q.   Did you personally head for Srebrenica?

 8        A.   Since the physician provided the commander with his opinion, I

 9     insisted that I could return to the unit without any particular

10     consequences.  As a result of that, together with the commander, I

11     returned to Srebrenica on the 12th, sometime between 9.00 and 10.00.

12        Q.   How did you and Mr. Pandurevic travel from Zeleni Jadar to

13     Srebrenica?

14        A.   In the command vehicle of the commander of Tactical Group 1,

15     Mr. Vinko Pandurevic.

16        Q.   Did Mr. Pandurevic tell you anything about his movements the

17     previous evening on the 11th and during the night between the 11th and

18     the 12th?

19        A.   Given our relationship, him as a commander and me as an

20     operative, it was only logical that I was kept abreast of the situation

21     in the unit and possible task, as well as the movements of the commander

22     and his intentions.  Therefore, he told me that on the 11th, in the

23     evening and later during the night he had had a briefing or a debriefing

24     in the command of the Bratunac Brigade and that he had returned very late

25     and that he had taken a different route to the one that he had taken from

Page 32241

 1     Srebrenica to Bratunac, i.e., from Srebrenica to Bratunac, he travelled

 2     in the command vehicle and he took the route

 3     Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac.  In the Potocari sector, he encountered a

 4     large group of people; men, women, and children.  He realised that he had

 5     a mistake to take that route but it was too late already and he managed

 6     to negotiate his way to Bratunac somehow.

 7        Q.   Did he tell you anything about the route that he took on the way

 8     back?

 9        A.   Since his estimate was that he would have threatened the lives of

10     the people in the vehicle, i.e., the driver and two soldiers from his

11     protection unit and because of his own personal safety, he took a

12     different route and that was Bratunac-Sase-Srebrenica.

13        Q.   Who attended that debriefing on the 11th of July in the evening

14     at the command of the Bratunac Brigade?

15        A.   We did not discuss the debriefing.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That has no foundation.  It may be what did you

19     learn or who told you, but unless he establishes that this person was

20     there, that's an improper question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to lay a basis for

22     the knowledge of the witness about the debriefing on the 11th of July.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did the commander, Pandurevic, tell you what the debriefing at

25     the command of the Bratunac command was about?

Page 32242

 1        A.   Basically what I learned from the commander was that the

 2     debriefing was about previous combat activities and the future task which

 3     was established at that meeting.  And that was that the units were to be

 4     deployed in the Zepa sector to engage the Zepa Brigade and neutralise its

 5     members.

 6             As for the rest of that meeting, I really don't know anything

 7     about it.

 8        Q.   Did he tell you anything about the participants of the

 9     debriefing.  Who was there?

10        A.   I don't know.  He didn't tell me.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When you arrived Srebrenica on the 12th, when did you

12     arrive, to the best of your recollection and estimate?

13        A.   It was sometime between 10.00 and 11.00, but it would sooner be

14     closer to 10.00 than closer to 11.00.

15        Q.   Was that your first arrival in Srebrenica during the war?

16        A.   Yes, that was my first arrival in Srebrenica.

17        Q.   What did you find there in Srebrenica, in terms of facilities?

18        A.   The town itself was a sore sight.  I had known Srebrenica from

19     before as a small tourist place, and I live in a similar town, but it was

20     in a -- a state of disarray.  However, there were no signs of

21     destruction.  I could not observe any signs of previous combat in the

22     town itself.

23        Q.   Did you find any civilians there?

24        A.   In the town itself, apart from the units, there were no civilians

25     at all.

Page 32243

 1        Q.   What was your next combat task?  How was it worded?

 2        A.   Let me just add when I arrived in Srebrenica while we were still

 3     in the vehicle, the commander emphasised that he expected or he was

 4     awaiting an order for further use of our unit.  As soon as we arrived in

 5     the Gostilj sector, where our command was located, the task did arrive,

 6     indeed, so we started to prepare our unit for the accomplishment of that

 7     task.

 8        Q.   How was it worded?

 9        A.   The task, in short, would be the following:  Tactical Group 1,

10     headed by Commander Pandurevic was supposed to be reserved for

11     Tactical Group 2 which would scout the terrain along the axis

12     Srebrenica-Viogor-Suceska.  It was to move behind Tactical Group 2 in a

13     marching order.

14        Q.   On the 12th of July, did you embark on carrying out that task?

15        A.   Already around 12.00 units of the Zvornik Brigade, i.e., of the

16     Tactical Group 1 were prepared to start marching along the axis

17     Srebrenica-Viogor.

18        Q.   How long did that engagement last?

19        A.   We arrived there around 1500 hours.  Roughly.

20        Q.   Did you have any encounters with the elements of the

21     28th Division?

22        A.   Tactical Group 2, which marched in front of the Zvornik Brigade,

23     did not come in contact with parts of the 28th Division.  We informed our

24     command about that, and we continued moving in a column along the Viogor

25     pass axis.  This means that Tactical Group 2 was also not in contact with

Page 32244

 1     parts of the 28th Division.

 2        Q.   And during that afternoon, on the 12th of July, did any of the

 3     officers visit you on the positions reached?

 4        A.   Before I answer your question, I'd like to add that one of the

 5     elements of the task was this:  When your units arrive at the

 6     Siljato Brdo-Viogor sector, they should get ready and start moving

 7     towards the Suceska village sector in a combat order because there

 8     assumptions based on intelligence that elements of the 28th Division were

 9     concentrated there.  As we arrived in the Viogor sector from the

10     intelligence organ, we received intelligence and we were also informed by

11     the Drina Corps that in the Suceska sector there were no elements of the

12     28th Division.  We were thus ordered to stay there, both Tactical Group 2

13     and Tactical Group 1 in the Viogor sector, and to await our further

14     orders there.

15        Q.   Who was it who gave you your further orders?

16        A.   In the afternoon hours on the 13th -- or, rather, the 12th of

17     July, the 12th of July, I apologise.  It was on the 12th of July.

18     General Krstic arrived in the Viogor sector.  In view of the situation

19     that prevailed ahead of us, he gave us our task, and that was to get

20     ready to start marching in the direction of the Zepa enclave.  He also

21     told us that the -- the details of that task would be specified on the

22     following day, i.e., on the 13th of July.

23        Q.   Where did you spend the night between the 12th and the 13th of

24     July, 1995?

25        A.   The whole unit, Tactical Group 1 together its command, spent the

Page 32245

 1     night in the Viogor sector.  We had set up our command there, as well as

 2     all the other elements that are needed for a unit to spend the night in

 3     the open.  We set up security and all the other elements that were needed

 4     to secure the unit under such circumstances.

 5        Q.   Did any of the elements of the tactical group or the

 6     Zvornik Brigade on that day, on the 12th of July, have any specific tasks

 7     in the Potocari sector?

 8        A.   As far as I know, units of the Zvornik Brigade did not receive

 9     any tasks.  They did not receive any orders with regard to the Potocari

10     sector.

11        Q.   On the following day, the 13th of July, in the morning, did you

12     have an opportunity to meet with any of your superior officers?

13        A.   On the 13th of July, around 10.00 in the morning, the Viogor

14     sector where the units of Tactical Groups 1 and 2 were camping, was

15     visited by General Mladic, General Krstic.  I don't remember whether

16     there were any other members of the superior commands.

17        Q.   And on that occasion, did General Mladic address your unit?

18        A.   General Mladic addressed the troops and unit commands.  He

19     delivered a short speech.  In military terminology, that would be called

20     a speech, but it was rather to inform us about the situation on the -- in

21     the theatres of war of the Herzegovina, Sarajevo-Romanija, and

22     East Bosnia Corps.  He gave us an overview of the situation -- situation

23     and combat activities in Serbian Krajina.  After that, he gave us a

24     specific task.

25        Q.   And that task was?

Page 32246

 1        A.   That task was, in short, that unit commanders should gather their

 2     units to provide them with material and technical equipment and that they

 3     should start marching in the direction of the Zepa sector.

 4        Q.   Were there any suggestions by the subordinated officers with

 5     regard to that task?

 6        A.   Usually after a task is issued by a commander of a superior

 7     command, and in that specific case, it was our Supreme Commander,

 8     General Mladic, no objections are ever expected.  The only thing that is

 9     expected was for General Mladic was to ask whether everybody was clear on

10     the task or whether there were any dilemmas with regard to the

11     accomplishment of the task.  The commander of Tactical Group 1, the

12     commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic, asked permission to

13     speak.

14        Q.   What did Mr. Pandurevic say on that occasion?

15        A.   Since General Mladic allowed Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of

16     the tactical group, to present his position,

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic, as far as I can remember, provided a short

18     analysis which consisted in the following:  He said that basically we had

19     not dispelled or broken up the 28th Division, that the 28th Division had

20     only moved into the north -- northern part of Srebrenica enclave where

21     they were deployed around Jaglici village sector and he said that most

22     probably they would try to break through across the territory controlled

23     by the Army of Republika Srpska along the

24     Konjevic Polje-Udrc-Kamenica-Baljkovica axis and that axis was most

25     commonly used by them when they infiltrated independent units of the

Page 32247

 1     28th Division.  As soon as they came behind the back of the

 2     Zvornik Brigade, i.e., the 7th, 4th and 6th battalions, i.e., left of

 3     Memici, across Baljkovica to Petkovci.  That meant that the defence of

 4     the Zvornik Brigade would be threatened.

 5        Q.   Do you remember --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Witness, especially

 7     Mr. Witness, you should slow down while speaking.  It is very complicated

 8     for the interpreters to follow.  And please pause between question and

 9     answer.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you remember, whether, on that occasion, General Mladic said

14     something or answered in some way, whether he said anything in response

15     to what Pandurevic had said?

16        A.   As far as I can remember, General Mladic basically said the

17     following:  The corps command has sufficient forces that would stop the

18     28th Division from crossing the Konjevic Polje-Kasaba-Milici road and

19     with regard to that question, the commander of the tactical group

20     Vinko Pandurevic should not have any concerns and that he has his basic

21     task and that he should set out to accomplish that task.

22     Commander Vinko Pandurevic as an officer said, Yes, sir, General, and

23     that is how the conversation ended, that is to say, this conversation

24     between the general and Vinko Pandurevic.

25        Q.   Do you remember whether there was any mention of the civilian

Page 32248

 1     population in the enclave on that occasion?

 2        A.   The civilian population, as far as I can remember, was not

 3     mentioned at all.  It was only military affairs, the 28th Division, its

 4     position, the position of our units, and the tasks that were to follow.

 5        Q.   Was there any mention of any possible POWs?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   When did you arrive at your new position in accordance with the

 8     combat task received?

 9        A.   We arrived at the new position in the morning hours around 2.00

10     on the 14th of July in the area of the village of Pozeplje or, rather,

11     the village of Rijeka.

12        Q.   Were there any combat activities or any movement of your tactical

13     group on that day, the 14th of July?

14        A.   On the 14th of July, upon arriving in the area of Pozeplje and

15     receiving a task from the corps command, the command of the tactical

16     group elaborated this concrete task and set out to carry it out.  This is

17     what it consisted of:  In the Pozeplje-Plana area, I think that's the

18     name of the village, along the road Brloznik-Purtici-Cavici, an attack

19     was supposed to be carried out, and in accordance with the task the line

20     in the village of Purtici should be reached.

21             Further on along the Purtici-Cavici road, the line should be

22     reached in the village -- at this moment I simply cannot remember.  I

23     think it was east of the village of Cavici.

24        Q.   Was there any combat on that day?

25        A.   There was combat in the village of Brloznik where there were no

Page 32249

 1     inhabitants at all.  Then after that fighting continued a bit towards the

 2     village of Cavici where it stopped.

 3        Q.   Were there any casualties on either side?

 4        A.   We had some wounded.  There weren't any persons who got killed.

 5        Q.   Tell the Court where you spent the night between the 14th and

 6     15th of July.

 7        A.   The unit spent the night at the positions reached and the command

 8     of the tactical group spent the night in the school in the village of

 9     Pozeplje.

10        Q.   What happened after the 15th of July in the morning?

11        A.   Since the units were already prepared in the early morning hours

12     of the 15th to continue their activities along the Purtici-Cavici-Zepa

13     road the command of the tactical group had already reached the units when

14     the commander received a call from the forward command post, the village

15     of Krivace, from General Krstic, to call the forward command post, the

16     IKM.

17        Q.   What was the next task?

18        A.   After the commander returned from the forward command post, and

19     he went there about 8.00 and he returned about 9.00, with the approval of

20     General Krstic, the units of the Zvornik Brigade because of the situation

21     that was going on at that moment in the rear of the Zvornik Brigade, at

22     the Memici-Baljkovica road, Petkovci, he allowed that the units from the

23     tactical group from the Zvornik Brigade could return to their original

24     units.

25        Q.   Can you tell us to the best of your recollection when it was that

Page 32250

 1     you returned to the area of Zvornik Brigade?

 2        A.   After the units of the tactical group withdrew from the positions

 3     attained, a column was formed and the commander awaited for that.  And

 4     then at the helm of the column, he set out in the direction of Zvornik

 5     and he gave me the task that within the armoured mechanised company, I

 6     should be at the rear end of that column.

 7        Q.   To the best of your recollection, when was that you arrived in

 8     the area of the Zvornik Brigade?

 9        A.   I arrived in the area of the Zvornik Brigade around 14, 1500

10     hours, the area Zlatne Vode.  That's on the old road between Zvornik and

11     Tuzla, on the outskirts.

12        Q.   Who did you receive your next order -- task from and what was it?

13        A.   Before leaving, the commander gave me a task stating that I

14     should stay in Zlatne Vode and wait for replenishment of the unit.  The

15     replenishment did arrive in Zlatne Vode --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the name.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the commander sent this to me

18     through him.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat where the replenishment did

20     arrive.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The replenishment arrived in Zlatne

22     Vode.  That is on the outskirts of the town of Zvornik on the old road

23     between Zvornik and Tuzla.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32251

 1        Q.   Did you act on this order; and where did you find yourself on the

 2     afternoon of the 15th of July?

 3        A.   The order stated that within the armoured mechanized company, I

 4     should set out along the Zlatne Vode-Caparde-Memici road with the

 5     following task:  To support the 7th Battalion and control the road that

 6     from Tuzla, via Memici and Caparde, leads to Zvornik, that I should hold

 7     it using my own fire-power and parts of the unit should support the

 8     7th Battalion in fighting the units that were attacking from the front.

 9        Q.   Did you have any intelligence about the strength of the enemy,

10     the 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   In the combat order of the command of the Drina Corps, it said

12     that the 28th Division consisted of five brigades and the sixth one was

13     the Zepa Brigade.  The estimate was that in it there are between 4 to

14     5.000 armed soldiers.  The strength of the column, we could assume that,

15     but one could take it as correct that there were between 4 to 5.000 of

16     them.

17        Q.   Did you have any information as to which units of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska - and possibly attached units - were in that area?

19        A.   The 7th Battalion in the area of Memici.  The 4th, in the area of

20     Baljkovica.  The 6th, in the area of Dugi Dio, Petkovci.  They were

21     defending Memici on the left and Petkovci on the right, and then in

22     depth, part of the units in that area, on the 15th upon our arrival, the

23     Podrinje detachment was already there that is to say from our tactical

24     group, and then part of Tactical Group 2, from the tactical group, then a

25     company from the Bratunac Brigade, a platoon from the Vlasenica Brigade,

Page 32252

 1     then a company of the special brigade of the police from Zvornik.  One

 2     company of the special brigade of the police from Sekovici, and I think

 3     one company from the special police brigade from Bijeljina.

 4        Q.   That night, between the 15th and the 16th, did combat ensue

 5     between these units that you mentioned and the enemy units?

 6        A.   The main fighting took place between the units of the 2nd Corps

 7     of the BiH army that were attacking at the lines of defence of the 7,

 8     4th, and partly 6th Battalion, with the intention of carrying out a

 9     breakthrough through the defence lines of the mentioned battalions and to

10     link up with the 28th Division or, rather, parts of it.  And thereby make

11     it possible to get them out of the positions that they were in.  However,

12     these attacks on the 15th did not yield fruit, so the units of the

13     2nd Corps or, rather, parts of it, did not get through the defence line

14     and did not link up with the 28th Division, so the 28th Division found

15     itself in a rather unenviable position, in view of our knowledge to the

16     effect that there were many civilians within it.

17        Q.   Can you describe the intensity of that combat on the basis of the

18     experience that you had in the years of war up until then?

19        A.   Since I was on the left flank of the actual battlefield within

20     the 7th Battalion, I could visually, directly, and partly via radio

21     communications, I could follow all developments in the Baljkovica area.

22             In the briefest possible terms, this is what it boils down to.

23     In the early morning hours, on the 16th, sometime around 4.00, the units

24     of the 2nd Corps carried out a very strong intensive attack against the

25     positions of the 7th Battalion and the fiercest attack was against the

Page 32253

 1     positions of the 4th Battalion and partly the 6th Battalion that was

 2     linked with the 4th Battalion along the Baljkovica river.  They managed,

 3     in part, to disrupt the defence of the 4th Battalion and afterwards that

 4     was repaired as the Podrinje detachment came in.  So on the 16th of July,

 5     the units of the 2nd Corps of the Army of BiH did not break through the

 6     lines of the 4th Battalion and were not able to assist parts of the

 7     28th Division and the civilians that were right behind them.

 8             Whoever is familiar with that area, that terrain, can just

 9     imagine the 28th Division, the civilian part that was moving towards them

10     since they did not have any help and they did not receive any help from

11     the units of the 2nd Corps, of course, in combat terms, they found

12     themselves in a cauldron and on that morning, we say in our language it

13     is boiling like it is in a cauldron.  That was the intensity of the

14     combat activities.

15             During those five years of war, I had not experienced that kind

16     of intensity in combat.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you've got a few minutes left.

18     Could I remind you of that.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope I will be able to finish,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, in view of the history

22     of this testimony, that we might be rather strict.  And then I've not yet

23     in any way calculated the time we wasted on the matter, you still

24     remember, from before the break, so you get the full net one hour and a

25     half, and that's it.

Page 32254

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, try to shorten your answers so I may be able to

 4     use the time that remains.

 5        A.   Okay.

 6        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to hear that an agreement could be

 7     reached between the two parties in order to overcome the situation?

 8        A.   From the commander of the battalion, I was keeping abreast of the

 9     situation.  In view of the situation in the Baljkovica sector,

10     Commander Vinko Pandurevic upon the insistence of the other side, through

11     Colonel Semso Muminovic was involved in the negotiations with a view to

12     overcoming the situation which had escalated that morning.  The commander

13     of the Zvornik Brigade and the -- the other side thought that it would be

14     opportune to cease-fire and that was indeed what happened and then the

15     next step was to see how the 28th Division could withdraw together with

16     the situation how they could overcome the situation that they encountered

17     in the cauldron in the Baljkovica sector.

18        Q.   According to that agreement, how long did this cease-fire last;

19     and how long did the corridor remain open?

20        A.   The agreement was that combat activities would be interrupted

21     around 10.00 and that the cease-fire should last until the 17th, around

22     noon.

23        Q.   Did you honour the agreement?

24        A.   Both sides fully honoured the agreement which was reached between

25     Commander Pandurevic and Colonel -- and the colonel from the 2nd Corps of

Page 32255

 1     the BiH army.

 2        Q.   Did anybody from the superior command come to the area to see

 3     what the situation was like?

 4        A.   On the 17th in the afternoon, I found myself in the Baljkovica

 5     sector.  My task was to surveil the situation because the cease-fire was

 6     to end and the corridor was to be closed.  One part of the detachment

 7     also arrived in the Baljkovica sector.  Their task was together with the

 8     4th battalion unit that I had brought was to close that corridor.  I

 9     learned that three officers from the Main Staff had spent some time at

10     the IKM.  Their task was to learn about what had happened the previous

11     day and earlier that day.

12        Q.   Bearing in mind your previous answer, and that was that you

13     visited the scene where the corridor was opened, did you have an

14     opportunity to see the casualties of the previous intense fighting?

15        A.   My task was to co-ordinate my activities with the company that

16     had arrived in the sector of the 7th Battalion to enter the defence

17     sector of the 7th Battalion not in a combat order but just to observe the

18     situation.  I was not to scour the terrain.  I was to ascertain whether

19     any units had been infiltrated by the 7th Corps.  When I arrived in the

20     Baljkovica sector I see there was no such unit.  I got in touch with the

21     battalion and with the detachment, and I accomplished the task of closing

22     the corridor.  I could see as much as the time allowed me to see.  I

23     could see the scene of the battle.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, your time is over.  If you have one

25     last question, you with put it to the witness, but when I warned you a

Page 32256

 1     couple of minutes ago that the time was very limited, you just continued

 2     to listen to evidence which, for example, your last question has not been

 3     answered by the witness.  He expends a lot of time on matters which

 4     are -- we still do not know whether he had an opportunity to see the

 5     casualties, because that was the question, and you let him go for minutes

 6     and minutes.  Apparently that's the way in which you wish to use your

 7     time in examination-in-chief.

 8             If you have one last question to the witness, you may put it to

 9     him.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, my last question.  Did you observe any wounded

12     or any other casualties of the intense fighting?

13        A.   I saw dead bodies.  I didn't see any wounded.

14        Q.   Mr. Dragutinovic, on behalf of the Mladic Defence, I would like

15     to thank you for the answers you provided to us.

16        A.   Not at all.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings the

18     examination-in-chief of this witness to an end.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we move on to the cross-examination, I have

22     one or two questions I'm seeking clarification.

23             I'll take you back to the 11th of July, Witness.  You know,

24     that's the day when you were transported and saw the doctor and where you

25     said you stayed overnight, I think, it was in Zeleni Jadar, and it was on

Page 32257

 1     that same day that quite -- that the debriefing took place on which you

 2     were questioned extensively.

 3             One of the questions was, and that was before Mr. McCloskey

 4     intervened.  The question was:  "Who attended that debriefing on the 11th

 5     of July in the evening at the command of the Bratunac Brigade? "

 6             And then your answer was:  "We did not discuss the debriefing."

 7             And you were talking about your conversations with

 8     Mr. Pandurevic.  That was your answer.

 9             Then when asked that was the next question:  "Did the commander,

10     Pandurevic, tell you what the debriefing at the command of the Bratunac

11     command was about?"

12             And then you told us what you learned from Pandurevic.

13             Now what I do not understand yet is that on the one hand, you

14     say, We did not discuss the debriefing, and, on the other hand, you tell

15     us what you learned from Mr. Pandurevic about the debriefing.

16             Could you explain that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way I understood the question

18     was this:  Didn't Mr. Pandurevic tell me who had attended the meeting or

19     the debriefing besides him?  And I said that Mr. Pandurevic did not tell

20     me who exactly had attended that debriefing.  So I really don't know who

21     had attended.  I can only assume but it would be nothing but an

22     assumption.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer reads differently.  Your answer reads:

24     "We did not discuss the debriefing."

25             But I now understand that you intended to say that he didn't tell

Page 32258

 1     you who attended that debriefing.

 2             Now, before he went there, did he tell you who had called that

 3     meeting?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually it would be the commander

 5     of the superior units.  Therefore -- please allow me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Witness.  I'm interrupting.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you who usually would do that.  I asked

 9     you whether Pandurevic told you who had called that meeting.  That was my

10     question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me that a meeting was

12     called by General Krstic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And not by General Mladic?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not General Mladic.  It was

15     General Krstic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, by -- as -- due to an unfortunate

17     development of procedural events, this Chamber had -- has looked at a

18     statement which is not in evidence, and in that statement in paragraph 13

19     I read -- and it's a statement which was signed by you, and I'll just

20     read the one line which is relevant.

21             You said in that statement:  "I stayed the night between 11 and

22     12 July while Pandurevic left Srebrenica for Bratunac, travelling via

23     Potocari.  He said he was going to a meeting called by Generals Mladic

24     and Krstic ..."

25             My question to you is:  What now explains that in that statement

Page 32259

 1     which you signed, a statement which was corrected later but not in this

 2     respect, that suddenly it is reported that you said that the meeting was

 3     called by Generals Mladic and Krstic; whereas, you now say, No, he told

 4     me that it was Krstic.  And what explains that you did not correct that

 5     when you were briefed recently?  When -- I used the wrong expression;

 6     during proofing sessions recently.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said during my first

 8     testimony in 2007 what I said it is quite possible that --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there again.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not about your testimony in 2007.

12     My question was about what you told us a minute ago, comparing that with

13     a statement which reflects -- which was signed by you in July 2014 and

14     reflects interviews held in June and October 2013, during which you are

15     reported to have said - and you signed for that - that the meeting was

16     called by Generals Mladic and Krstic.

17             Do you have any explanation why you signed that statement and why

18     you did not correct that recently during proofing?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have stood by the statement

20     that I provided previously, and that is that the meeting was called by

21     Generals Mladic and Krstic.  So what I'm saying now, i.e., the current

22     statement, I could - how should I put it? - I could change that.  Not in

23     the sense that I'm changing the meaning of the statement but --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  You stay you stand

25     by your signed statement that the meeting was called by Generals Mladic

Page 32260

 1     and Krstic?  Is that ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  May I then take you back to an answer which you gave

 4     a minute ago.  I asked you whether Pandurevic had told you who had called

 5     that meeting.  And your answer was:  "He told me that a meeting was

 6     called by General Krstic."

 7             My question then was:  "And not by General Mladic?"

 8             You then answered:  "No, not General Mladic.  It was Krstic."

 9             So a minute ago, you positively denied --

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that Pandurevic had told that you Generals Krstic

12     and Mladic had called for that meeting, and now approximately two minutes

13     later, you tell us that that was not a truthful answer and that you stand

14     by your previous answer, by your previous statement that the meeting was

15     as Pandurevic had told you, was called by Generals Mladic and Krstic.

16             Do you have any explanation for that inconsistency.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm explaining the consistency or,

18     rather, discrepancies because it was General Krstic who issued specific

19     tasks for the use of those units, and the commander of the tactical group

20     reported to General Krstic, i.e., the then-Chief of Staff of the

21     Drina Corps.

22             Therefore, reports can be submitted to the commander, i.e., the

23     officer in charge of the operation at that moment.

24             The presence of General Mladic was obvious.  He was there as

25     well.

Page 32261

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, earlier you told us, also a minute ago, that

 2     you had no knowledge about who attended that meeting.  Now, 15 minutes

 3     later, you tell us that General Mladic was there as well.  So apparently

 4     you do have knowledge about who attended.

 5             Any explanation for that inconsistency?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, this is not an

 7     inconsistency.  The way I understood the question was this:  Which of the

 8     brigade commanders and participants in combat surrounding Srebrenica also

 9     participated in the debriefing at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

10     It was not only Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic who was there but also the

11     other commanders of the units that had been engaged in combat.  I don't

12     know who was present.

13             This would be my answer to the question that was put to me by

14     Mr. Stojanovic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

16             The question was, first, Mr. Stojanovic asked you:  "Who attended

17     that debriefing on the 11th of July in the evening at the command of the

18     Bratunac Brigade?"

19             Your answer was:  "We did not discuss the debriefing."

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm just putting to you what you said.

22             Then a few lines further down:  "Did he tell you anything about

23     the participants of the debriefing?  Who was there?"

24             Your answer:  "I don't know.  He didn't tell me."

25             If you consider all this not to be inconsistent, then we've heard

Page 32262

 1     your explanations until now.  I leave it to that.  We'll take a break and

 2     we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 9     the courtroom.

10             Mr. McCloskey, now being back in the viva voce modus, one hour

11     was your estimate.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  My recollection it was one hour and a half.  I

13     think we matched the -- the -- the Defence, and --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was initially on the famous schedule, it was

15     one hour, but I do understand that we -- you have adjusted that or I

16     don't know even know whether you were the source of the one hour but it's

17     one hour and a half now.  And I take it you will be able to finish within

18     that time.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I certainly hope so.  I don't intend on going

20     much beyond the 12th of July, but we'll have to see.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And the witness has an inclination to move away from

24     the question.  I'm confident that you're able to -- to guide him on the

25     right track.

Page 32263

 1             And we will have a little bit of an earlier break because

 2     Judge Fluegge will not be with us during the very last session, so we'll

 3     take the next break at 1.15.

 4             Mr. Dragutinovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey.

 5     You find Mr. McCloskey to your right.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the

 6     Prosecution.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 9        Q.   Sir, you're testifying today that on the 12th of July,

10     Vinko Pandurevic told you about what had gone on, somewhat, but at least

11     he had told you about that meeting that had happened the night before, on

12     the 11th of July.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And we see at temporary page 29, line 17, you say:  "Therefore,

15     he told me that on the 11th in the evening and later during the night he

16     had had a briefing or debriefing in the commands of the Bratunac Brigade

17     and that he had returned very late and he had taken another route and he

18     had travelled ..."

19             So if we could go back to your signed statement that

20     His Honour Judge Orie was speaking to you about, 1D1643, page 5, and we

21     understand you corrected some things in this and -- though it's unclear

22     to me exactly what, I want to ask you about something.

23             Looking at paragraph 13, we see that you're talking about leaving

24     with Pandurevic going towards Srebrenica.  They say there was -- you say

25     there was a typo on the dates.  But explain this to me:  In the middle of

Page 32264

 1     the page:  "Well, Pandurevic left Srebrenica for Bratunac travelling via

 2     Potocari.  He said he was going a meeting called by Generals Mladic and

 3     Krstic.  He also said that the agenda of the meeting was to report on the

 4     combat operations completed and possibly to receive new tasks following

 5     the taking of Srebrenica."

 6             Later on, down in 14 he tells you:  "The meeting was supposed to

 7     take place in the evening and Commander Pandurevic did not mention who

 8     was going to attend it."

 9             In your testimony, and frankly as you will know in our other

10     testimonies, you're speaking of learning this about -- about this meeting

11     in the past tense.  In this statement, which you read and signed, you are

12     talking about Pandurevic telling about a meeting he is going to, in the

13     future.

14             Now, isn't it correct, sir, that you did learn on the 12th of

15     July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting in Bratunac with the

16     commander, Krstic and Mladic?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you answer the question?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the question is?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you did learn on the 12th

20     of July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting in Bratunac, with

21     Commander Krstic and Mladic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mentioned paragraph 13, but in

23     paragraph 12, it says that I spent the night Zeleni Jadar.  So that

24     tallies --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

Page 32265

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. McCloskey puts to you --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay, okay.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- he says:  Isn't it true that you learned on the

 5     12th of July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Commander Pandurevic, on the 12th

 7     of July, Jadar-Srebrenica, on that road, I heard from him that he had

 8     already attended a meeting.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now for the transcript it says the 1st but I think

10     it's pretty essential -- oh, it's corrected.  Yes.

11             Proceed.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   My question is:  It's been a long time, many years, do you

14     consider it reasonable that you heard about this meeting in the future

15     tense, that Pandurevic was going to a meeting on the 12th July?  And to

16     be precisely clear that you, on the 12th of July, together with

17     Pandurevic, that's when he told you he was going to a meeting in

18     Bratunac.

19        A.   No.  Rather, in the vehicle, on the 12th in the morning, on the

20     road, Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica he said to me that he had been at a meeting

21     at a briefing in Bratunac.

22        Q.   So we can all read your statement which clearly states it's the

23     future.  So you read that, you signed it, and that was just one big

24     mistake or misunderstanding?

25        A.   I did not give such a statement.  Maybe my statement has been

Page 32266

 1     misinterpreted.  I am sure that I have not given that kind of statement.

 2     What is true is that I heard about that from the commander in the vehicle

 3     on the road from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica that the previous night, he

 4     attended a meeting in Bratunac.

 5        Q.   Now, there's something else you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I seek full clarification.

 7             Is it your testimony that you learned about this meeting only on

 8     the morning of the 12th, or had something been said about it already on

 9     the 11th by Pandurevic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic

11     was in Zeleni Jadar on the 11th, he just intimated that he would be

12     attending a briefing that evening.  That is, the 11th, in the evening.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   You also testified at temporary page 30, lines 21 through 25,

16     that basically, "What I learned from the commander was that the

17     debriefing was about previous combat activities and the future task which

18     was established at that meeting and that was that the units were to be

19     deployed in the Zepa sector to engage the Zepa Brigade and neutralise its

20     members."

21             Now, if we look at your statement that's still up on the screen,

22     we don't see in paragraph 13 any mention of going to Zepa.  In fact, at

23     page 14 [sic], you say:  "As I understood things I would say that it was

24     obvious that the units of the 28th Division had withdrawn from Srebrenica

25     town in order" --

Page 32267

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You are reading, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  "... in order not to sustain losses and that they

 3     will still -- and that they were still somewhere in the vicinity.  The

 4     28th Division had not been completely destroyed -- had not been destroyed

 5     completely and I presumed that a task would be issued to that effect at

 6     the meeting.  Pandurevic had to attend on the orders of General Mladic

 7     and Krstic."

 8             Then we have the part about your presumptions about who was

 9     attending.

10             Then we go on.  And there's no mention of Zepa.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was not page 14, but paragraph 14.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Paragraph.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             "The next day on 12 July Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2 as

14     well I believe were articulated with searching the terrain between

15     Srebrenica and Viogor and Suceska.  The commander gathered all members of

16     the unit that is to say platoon commanders and said that everyone was to

17     prepare their troops to march towards Suceska.  The Podrinje detachment

18     was there as well.  We left around 1200 hours and arrived at the assigned

19     position in the area of Viogor-Suceska at around 1500 hours."

20             And we can see that what is in paragraph 16, where you were

21     awaiting Krstic's orders there.

22             Then we get to paragraph 17:  "General Krstic arrived in our

23     sector sometime in the afternoon, around 1700 or 1800 hours.  Our

24     commander, Pandurevic was there as well.  General Krstic and he had a

25     conversation and we were told that we do not need to go to Suceska that

Page 32268

 1     there were no 28th Division units there, that the division had gone

 2     further up north towards the village of Jaglici and that our unit was to

 3     spend the night there.  At the meeting with Krstic, it was announced that

 4     our unit might be tasked with combat operations."

 5             We need to turn the page in the English.  Thank you.  And the

 6     B/C/S.

 7             "It was announced that our units might be tasked with combat

 8     operations in the area of Zepa ..."

 9        Q.   So according to this statement, you don't hear anything about

10     Zepa until the evening of 12 July, but now you have testified for the

11     first time that you heard about this before that.

12             How do you explain that important difference?

13        A.   I explain it in the following way.

14             The problem that -- that cropped up and that I hadn't stated

15     before; namely, I heard that order from the commander to go to Zepa.

16     Probably it was an oversight on my part, but I know before General Krstic

17     arrived in the Viogor area the units from our tactical group learned that

18     it was possible to go on mission to Zepa.  That is to say, we knew about

19     that.  Then a problem cropped up in the tactical group itself.  Actually

20     combat group 2.  This combat group 2 has a heterogenous composition --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22        A.   Let me explain.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I don't have --

24        A.   Do allow me to explain.

25        Q.   I don't have much time.  It was a simple question.

Page 32269

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if Mr. McCloskey considers that you have

 2     either anticipated his question or that he wants to put the next question

 3     to you without having received an answer, he is free to do so.  If, at

 4     the very end of your testimony there's anything you think we should know,

 5     then you can address us.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   During --

 9        A.   At the end or now?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  At the end.

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   During your stay here in The Hague, have you naturally seen or

14     run into any former colleagues in the VRS?

15        A.   [Interpretation] Now?  This time?  In The Hague?  Today?  These

16     couple of days?  Yes, yes.

17        Q.   Who?

18        A.   Three or four of them were all from the Army of Republika Srpska.

19     I know some of them, and I don't know others.

20        Q.   Did you see Milenko Jevdjevic?

21        A.   I know Milenko Jevdjevic from before.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you had seen him during

23     these days, Witness.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could see each other during

25     breakfast.  We could see each other every day because we were at the same

Page 32270

 1     hotel.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Did he naturally speak to you about those events a bit, on those

 4     days when you were soldiers together?

 5        A.   At the events where we took part together?  Yes.

 6        Q.   So did you talk with him about the period -- any -- any period

 7     between the 6th and the 15th of July, 1995?

 8        A.   Some, yes; others, no.  Just those when we could meet each other.

 9        Q.   Well, you've just testified that you have not said -- you hadn't

10     learned about the Zepa orders before, and you've testified that for the

11     first time today.  Is it not correct that Mr. Jevdjevic had kind of

12     reminded you that that's what happened, that Mladic gave an order to go

13     to Zepa?

14        A.   No, no.  No.

15        Q.   But you talked about that --

16        A.   Absolutely not.

17        Q.   But you talked about that.

18        A.   No, no.  Not about that.

19        Q.   What did you talk about in those days, the 12th/11th of July?

20     What part of the story did you talk about?

21        A.   We mostly talked about our common acquaintances who were with us

22     in the area of Zepa, the area of Srebrenica.  And I did not go into his

23     testimony because I am an elderly person now and all of this tires me

24     out, and I didn't want to be filled with something that would make this

25     stay more difficult.

Page 32271

 1        Q.   And I understand.  He apparently wanted to talk you about it, and

 2     you took the better choice and didn't talk to him about it.  Is that what

 3     you're saying?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When did he want to talk to you about it?  What day?

 6        A.   No special day.  At moments when he felt certain tension or

 7     something that he had experienced, something unpleasant in this

 8     courtroom.  Just to make it easier upon himself to decompress without any

 9     tendency of leading me to some piece of information that I am absolutely

10     aware of.

11        Q.   But he told you a bit about what he was testifying about then.

12        A.   A bit, a bit, but not that much, since -- since his military

13     occupation is signals and I have nothing to do with signals and

14     communication, and I don't even understand all of that, if he were to

15     tell me about all of that, I wouldn't even understand it.  Like many

16     other people would not understand it.  Even here, in this courtroom.

17        Q.   And I take it that he knew you were a witness in it case --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you --

19             What makes you believe that people in this court -- in this

20     courtroom would not understand these matters?  Why do you think that's

21     the case?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said:  "I don't even understand all of

24     that," you were talking about signals.  "If he were to tell me about all

25     of that" --

Page 32272

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you said:  "... like many other people

 3     would not understand it even here in this courtroom."

 4             What made you believe that people in this courtroom would not

 5     understand these signal matters?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only experts can understand

 7     communications and signals.  This is a technical issue, and not even a

 8     civil engineer can talk on an equal footing with a mechanical engineer,

 9     for example.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the only person I can discuss,

12     my profession and my professional issues, is my colleague, a land

13     surveyor.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did Mr. Jevdjevic tell you that he had

15     difficulties in explaining to us and that he experienced difficulties

16     where people in this courtroom would not have understood him.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to a certain extent.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When did you arrive in The Hague?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hmm, on Monday, and the date was --

20     some ten days ago it was.  Seven, eight days ago.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But if I understand you well, part of your

22     discussion included at least also the experience Mr. Jevdjevic has -- had

23     in this courtroom.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be only logical for us to

25     talk and exchange our experiences about the atmosphere in the courtroom,

Page 32273

 1     for example.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, after he had concluded his testimony, did

 3     he add anything to what he may have said before that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So your conversations about what had happened in

 6     this courtroom were during the days or between the days in which he gave

 7     testimony?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At any time when we had free time

 9     to spend together.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Including over the last few days?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over the last few days, we did not

12     talk.  He was not in a mood for any kind of conversation about the

13     courtroom.  I think that he was not a mood to talk about that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you also told us a minute ago that you

15     told you a bit about his testimony and also that what he had experienced

16     in this courtroom being unpleasant and also about our understanding,

17     understanding of the persons in this courtroom, about the very technical

18     nature of his -- of his answers.

19             That's what I understood --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just about communications,

21     about his specialty.

22             As for the rest, I think that the rest was understandable and

23     anybody could understood him.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- but did he then tell you because your answer

25     is not entirely unambiguous in this respect, did he tell you that persons

Page 32274

 1     in this courtroom - I'm not specifying who that may have been - had

 2     difficulties in understanding the very technical matters about

 3     communication when he had explained that in this courtroom?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one additional short question.

 8             Did you see Mr. Jevdjevic yesterday after 1.00?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I saw him?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the end of that question,

12     is that it?  No text?  Can't hear you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am asking you if you saw Mr. Jevdjevic

14     yesterday after 1.00.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only later I saw him.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When did you see -- "later" is after 1.00.  When

20     did you see him yesterday?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometime around 1700 hours.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you talk to him?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We had an agreement to go

24     somewhere and have a drink because he was leaving.  It was to be by way

25     of saying good-bye to each other.

Page 32275

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Nothing about the testimony of Mr. Jevdjevic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not on that day.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   You will recall your interview with the OTP on the 18th of

 7     September, 2001?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you did not tell the OTP at that point about learning of the

10     meeting between Pandurevic, Mladic and Krstic; correct?

11        A.   Nobody ever asked me.

12        Q.   That's true, no one did ask you.  But you didn't mention it

13     yourself either, did you?

14        A.   At the end of my interview, I was asked whether I would add

15     something.  I said that I answered all the questions and any additional

16     answer of mine would have been groundless.

17        Q.   And then on the 11th of June, 2007, you came here to testify.

18     You were a Prosecution witness in the Popovic case, and you met with the

19     OTP lawyer, Kweku Vanderpuye.  Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's go to a -- a brief account of your meeting with

22     Mr. Vanderpuye; 65 ter 32122.

23             Now at that meeting with Mr. Vanderpuye you didn't tell him about

24     hearing there was an order from Mladic to go to Zepa from that meeting,

25     did you?

Page 32276

 1        A.   I don't remember if the question was asked.  I'm sure that I

 2     answered.

 3        Q.   Well, let's look at it.  Let's go to page 2 in both languages.

 4             And looking at bullet point -- what's 5.

 5             "The witness states that on 11 July Pandurevic attended a meeting

 6     in Bratunac.  At that meeting, the witness assumes that General Mladic,

 7     corps commanders as well as commanders of the tactical group [sic] were

 8     present."

 9             "The witness states that on 12 July 1995, he was picked up by

10     Pandurevic at the medical unit in Zeleni Jadar.  Pandurevic drove him to

11     Gostilj where a meeting was held among the commands of the tactical

12     group.  On the way there and while there, Pandurevic briefly told the

13     witness about his prior meeting in Bratunac on the night of the 11th ...

14     the witness states that Pandurevic told him that the meeting involved

15     General Krstic but did not mention others present and involved the future

16     operations of ... tactical groups, including searching the terrain for

17     Muslim units leaving Srebrenica towards Suceska.  The witness indicates

18     that Pandurevic told him that on his way back from this meeting he took

19     the route back to Srebrenica through Sase in order to avoid what he

20     described as a mass of people.

21             "On 12 July sometime before noon an order to conduct combat

22     operations in Suceska was issued.  The tactical group commanded by

23     Pandurevic took on a support role for the other tactical group commanded

24     by Trivic (which was in a combat posture)."

25             Now, we can see what's said in paragraph 7 briefly.  Paragraph 8

Page 32277

 1     is when you talk again as you had -- we'd seen previous:  "Later around

 2     17 to 1800 hours an informal meeting was held at Viogor at which

 3     General Krstic was present.  At this time Krstic informed that the

 4     operations in Suceska would no longer be carried out --"

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We need to turn the page, I believe, in the

 6     B/C/S.

 7             "As reconnaissance had shown ... the Muslim units were no longer

 8     there.  The tactical group was directed to await further orders.

 9     Subsequently, the meeting continued more formally as a meeting among the

10     commands of Pandurevic's group prepares were in anticipation of the next

11     phase of the operations which the witness states that the group command

12     believed to involve Zepa."

13        Q.   So, again, we see in this information, you don't mention learning

14     about Zepa from the command meeting.  You don't learn about it until the

15     evening of 12 July.

16             That's a correct account of what you told Mr. Vanderpuye, is it

17     not?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, you basically say something similar when you testify a few

20     days later.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to 65 ter 32114.  Let's go to

22     page 24.  This is Mr. Vanderpuye leading you on -- in direct examination.

23     We're now -- we see that we're on the 12th.

24             "Q.  All right.  This next morning can you tell us what happened.

25     This is the morning of the 12th.

Page 32278

 1             "A.  On the morning of the 12th, I already knew that our units

 2     had entered Srebrenica because the commander arrived in Zeleni Jadar

 3     where the logistics of our unit was positioned.  He was on some

 4     assignment and he also went to see me, so when he finished his business,

 5     I returned together with the commander to Srebrenica."

 6             It goes down.  Mr. Vanderpuye asks you if you discuss anything

 7     and you answer on line 15:  "Yes, we talked.  We talked about the things

 8     that happened after I was sent to Zeleni Jadar, how the units entered

 9     Srebrenica, and all the things that transpired until we met up again.

10             "Q.  And can you recall specifically what the commander told you?

11             "A.  Well, he was saying that at the outset there was some

12     resistance from the 28th Division, but it was practically non-existent

13     the end so that our units entered Srebrenica without encountering any

14     resistance, that the tactical group entered the town, the units were

15     stationed in surrounding buildings to secure the units that were in

16     Srebrenica.  After that, he had gone to Bratunac on the

17     Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac road.

18             Now I'm coming to the part I wanted to ask you about.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We need to turn the page.

20             "Did he mention to you why he went to Bratunac?

21             "He went to a meeting that was convened by General Mladic and

22     General Krstic.

23             "Q.  And did he mention to you what was discussed at the meeting?

24             "A.  To submit reports on missions accomplished and missions that

25     might follow after ... taking of Srebrenica.

Page 32279

 1             "Q.  Okay.  Did he mention to you what missions might follow

 2     after this [sic] taking of Srebrenica at this time [sic].

 3             "A.  Well, from what I understand [sic] it was evident that the

 4     units of the 28th Division had retreated from Srebrenica but they only

 5     pulled out of the town.  So that [sic] there was combat in prospect to

 6     the west of the town because the units of the 28th Division were still

 7     there.  They had not been crushed.  And that was probably going to

 8     determine our next assignments."

 9             Now that answer, sir, that you gave is the position of the

10     Prosecution.  That was the situation you were in.  Do you stand by that

11     statement that I just read to you, the -- those last five lines.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  Then we go on.

14             And did he mention what time this meeting was?

15             "A.  I'm not sure.  It was some time in the evening.  Or at

16     night.

17             "Q.  And other than commanders General Mladic, General Krstic,

18     Commander Pandurevic, did he mention who else was at the meeting.

19             "A.  I don't remember.  I suppose there were other unit

20     commanders, commanders of units of tactical group strength or brigade

21     strength.  I can only suppose but I really don't remember the names."

22             Then we -- he asked you on the bottom of the page what happened

23     while you were in Gostilj.  You say on the next page that you were

24     awaiting assignments.  I'm going through it a bit more briefly.

25             "And did these new orders come at some point?"  In line 4.

Page 32280

 1             And you say:  "Yes, they did.  Tactical Group 1 was ordered to be

 2     prepared as backup for Tactical Group 2 which was going to search the

 3     terrain, as the terminology went, on the axis of Srebrenica-Viogor

 4     village-Suceska village."

 5             And later on, we see that you talk about the troops gathering and

 6     start moving towards Suceska.  In line 20, you say:  "We start moving

 7     with the commander in his vehicle in the direction of Srebrenica, Viogor,

 8     Suceska and we started it was around 1200 hours and we reached our

 9     destination at around 1400 hours and maybe 1500 hours."

10             If we go on, we'll see that as we get to the afternoon --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Next page, please.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we can go to the next page.  I would go to

13     page 28.

14             And this is where you're telling what is now should be familiar

15     to us, that around 1700 hours or maybe 1800 hours the Chief of Staff

16     arrived in the Viogor section.

17             That's General Krstic, right, the Chief of Staff of the

18     Drina Corps.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I just saw that.  Okay let me go on.

21             And then, as we see, the -- General Krstic -- you say:

22     "General Krstic had a conversation with the commander and during that

23     conversation he made us understand that in the Suceska sector there were

24     no units of the 28th Division and that this division had moved in order

25     in the direction of Jaglici village and that we should keep our unit in

Page 32281

 1     the Viogor sector and that we should prepare our units [sic] to spend the

 2     night."

 3             We go down with a --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You missed the last word.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  "The night there."

 6             Excuse me, "the night there."

 7             Thank you.  And then I'll skip a question or two.  Mr. Vanderpuye

 8     says:

 9             "Did you -- did you have any indication as do what your unit was

10     supposed to do next or could you [sic] expect to do next following

11     General Krstic's visit.

12             "A.  There were indications that we would prepare our units to

13     proceed with combat activities in the Zepa sector."

14             So there again I think it is now perhaps the third time you don't

15     learn about Zepa until the evening of 12 July.  Yet after speaking to

16     Mr. Jevdjevic - and I don't know what was said or if anything was said -

17     you come into this court and testify for the first time that you learned

18     from the 11 July meeting that Zepa was the main operation.

19             How is it, sir, that it's the first time today in 2015 that we

20     hear this from you?

21        A.   This claim that I learned that from Jevdjevic is wrong.

22             Secondly, and you're not allowing me to say this, I'm instructed

23     that I should say it at the end but I should say it now, with your leave.

24     And this would give you the explanation as to how come I remember Zepa

25     now and not before.

Page 32282

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is directly related to that question, you may

 2     briefly explain.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the briefest possible way, we

 4     knew about Zepa already on the 12th, in the morning.  We had a lot of

 5     problems with Combat Group 2.  They were not mentally and physically

 6     prepared to go to the Zepa sector because on the previous few days it had

 7     seven dead and one missing.  There were even 15 missing in action at some

 8     point.

 9             Already that morning they wanted to be replaced by another unit

10     because apparently they did not have either the mental or physical

11     strength to participate in combat in the Zepa sector.  That's why I don't

12     understand how come I didn't mention that.  But I know that that was one

13     of the reasons why we spent the entire afternoon on the 12th only

14     improving the morale and physical and mental condition of Combat Group 2

15     we didn't want to ask for replacement.  We didn't want any other unit to

16     be brought in from the Zvornik Brigade.  We wanted to prepare our unit

17     for the task.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It is break time.

20             We'd like to see you back there 20 minutes, Mr. Dragutinovic.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes

24     to 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

Page 32283

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The -- Judge Fluegge, is for urgent personal

 3     reasons, unable to continue to hear this case for the next 38 minutes.

 4     He'll be back tomorrow with us.  Judge Moloto and myself have decided

 5     that it's in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case today.

 6     Therefore, we will sit under Rule 15 bis.

 7             There's another matter I'd just like to briefly address.  The

 8     testimony that was read to the witness in -- which he has given in 2007

 9     seems to --

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to put the announcement that Pandurevic would

12     visit a meeting on that same 12th of July, if I see the sequence well.

13     If -- first of all, if my understanding is wrong but I try to read the

14     portion that is uploaded into e-court, if that impression is wrong, I'd

15     like to hear.

16             If the impression is right, then I at least would like to know

17     whether anywhere in cross-examination the witness distances himself from

18     any of what he said in the examination-in-chief by Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             But please proceed, for the time being, Mr. McCloskey, because I

20     think it would be inappropriate to further discuss the matter in the

21     presence of the witness.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Understood.

24        Q.   Sir, I -- I want, with a couple of, questions, sort of set the

25     scene of where we are militarily on the 11th of July and the morning of

Page 32284

 1     the 12th.

 2             NATO has bombed on the 11th of July.  You were injured; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   The tactical group was able to go into Srebrenica on the early

 5     evening hours of 11 July and basically deploy near Gostilj, which is

 6     the -- the football pitch in Srebrenica; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, a bit below the football pitch.

 8        Q.   And by the evening of 11 July, did the -- does the command that

 9     you were part of have any knowledge where the Muslims are?  The Muslim

10     army, I should say, the 28th Division.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Where -- where -- where does the command think the Muslims are on

13     the evening of 11 July?

14        A.   Since I was not in the command on the 11th of July, I could not

15     have had an opportunity to be present during the assessment as to where

16     the units of the 28th Division could be.  That is to say, I'm not aware

17     of this assessment.

18        Q.   Okay.  But by the morning of the 12 July when you get back with

19     the command, you learn that it's the command's feeling or knowledge that

20     the Muslim 28th Division has fled in the direction or in the area of

21     Suceska?

22        A.   Yes.  The assessment was that it concentrated in the area of the

23     village of Suceska.

24        Q.   And the VRS forces did not control anything but the Srebrenica

25     town area and the area below that, between Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar.

Page 32285

 1        A.   Also on the left, almost to Viogor, the village of Bajramovici

 2     where there were parts of Tactical Group 2.

 3        Q.   So Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar, over to Bajramovici but in the area

 4     of Potocari, that area was still held by the Dutch forces, was it not?

 5        A.   Where the Dutch forces were I personally did not see that, and I

 6     don't know.  Just from some conversations, I know that they were in

 7     Potocari.  As for deployment, no.

 8        Q.   So by the evening of the 11th of July, NATO is still a threat,

 9     isn't it?

10        A.   In the evening hours, no; in the afternoon hours, yes.

11        Q.   NATO air power was still -- could still be used against Serb

12     forces on the 11th or 12th, could they not?  And I mean from your

13     position on the ground.  You had to worry about NATO bombing you again,

14     didn't you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So if, on the 11th of July, the Muslims are not in Srebrenica

17     town.  They're in the direction of Suceska.  The majority of the enclave

18     up to Potocari and beyond westward is not in VRS control.  NATO is still

19     a threat.  It makes no sense militarily for General Mladic to issue an

20     order to prepare troops to march to Zepa on the 11th of July, does it?

21        A.   I wouldn't go into Commander Mladic's thinking.  I can only think

22     about my own level of thinking, that of a major.  Anything beyond that

23     would be pointless.

24        Q.   Well, from a major's position, then, that has many lives under

25     his control, would it make sense to send the VRS troops, the hundreds of

Page 32286

 1     men deployed in Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, the next day, on to Zepa,

 2     when NATO's still a threat.  You don't -- the Muslims are in the western

 3     of the enclave, uncontrolled.  The Dutch still hold Potocari.  As a

 4     major, makes no sense to issue that order at that time, does it?

 5        A.   At some moment it does make sense for a simple reason, because

 6     the units of the 28th Division, quite simply, let the town go.  In my

 7     view, they left the population at somebody's mercy, which means that they

 8     withdrew as deep as possible into the territory or, rather, the enclave,

 9     with certain intentions that in my assessment had no combat intention or,

10     rather, no intention to attack units of the Army of Republika Srpska that

11     were attacking Srebrenica.  Because from intercepted conversations during

12     the attack on Srebrenica, the commanders themselves, the commanders of

13     the units of the 28th Division, were in total disarray, in disagreement,

14     what to do, whether to withdraw or not, where to assemble, we knew all of

15     that.

16        Q.   Okay.  One last time:  We know your intelligence told you that

17     the 28th Division had up to 10 to 15.000 able-bodied men, about a third

18     of which were armed.  If they are talking a stand in Suceska west of

19     Srebrenica - and we'll get a map in a minute - and with all the other

20     factors I explained, it makes no military sense for a major at that point

21     to have all his troops go off to Zepa, does it?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

23             I think that the witness has responded to that question.  It is

24     in the first sentence of the answer to the previous question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer this question once

Page 32287

 1     again.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm go to object at this point.  Asking the same

 3     question or a similar question twice is okay in cross-examination,

 4     especially when you're not getting much of an answer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness asked whether he may answer that

 6     question once again.  And he is allowed to do so.  The objection is

 7     denied.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, in cross-examination the simple line question

 9     add, question answered, is not always applicable, and insistence on again

10     an answer to the same question is, under certain circumstances,

11     admissible.

12             Therefore, Witness, you may answer the question again.  Well,

13     please do so.  Whether it makes sense or not for a major.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our assessment from my point of

15     view and from the point of view of the higher command was that the

16     28th Division, quite simply, did not have the strength to put up any kind

17     of resistance any longer, irrespective of the strength that you refer to,

18     that's a bit exaggerated.  So the resistance of the 28th Division over

19     the following days became evident, and that is, that they were not able

20     to resist the army of Republika Srpska.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   I agree over the following days it did.  In fact, on the

23     afternoon of 12 July as you had stated in one of your previous

24     statements, it became -- the VRS became aware, as you did, that the

25     28th Division had largely fled the enclave from the area of Jaglici and,

Page 32288

 1     at the same time, Potocari had been taken by the VRS and the MUP.  And so

 2     the night of the 12th of July is a much different situation than the

 3     night of the 11th of July and makes much more sense in order to issue an

 4     order to Zepa for the 13th of July; correct?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a very complex question, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From your point of view, yes.

 7             It's a bit complex but from your point of view that's the way it

 8     seems.  But from our military point of view, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, your question was pretty compound.

10     And it seems that we are focussing more and more on what makes sense

11     either for a major or for a general, or perhaps even common sense.

12     Military sense, let's move on.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   Sir, the reason I believe that you have never mentioned orders

15     from General Mladic on the 11th of July before was because you spent the

16     12th of July marching in combat formation to find the Muslims in Suceska,

17     and you knew it made no military sense to receive an order on the 11th of

18     July and tell -- for some reason this testimony you have now come up with

19     receiving an order from Mladic on -- or that you've told of an order of

20     Mladic on the 11th of July.  That's my point here.  It's all coming back

21     to the 11th of July and what you received.

22             Am I right?

23        A.   You're not right.  Okay.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to a map, we can help maybe get oriented

25     a bit.  It shouldn't take too long.  P01087.  And it's page 14 of the

Page 32289

 1     book and if I could, sir, I want to give you a miniature of this map

 2     because it's a map that was taken from the Zvornik Brigade and you'll

 3     notice, I think, that your name is on the bottom of it.  It's hard -- if

 4     I can give a physical copy -- it's a little hard to see the whole one

 5     from the computer screen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll get a hard copy.  It should be shown

 7     first, unless Mr. Stojanovic ...

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps for us we can zero in on the right bottom

 9     corner where there should be some names.

10        Q.   And, sir, for -- for us that don't read Cyrillic, do you see your

11     name down there in the right-hand corner?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I see that.

13        Q.   And that's -- the name above you is -- give us the name and

14     what's above you?  You see Mihajlo Galic there?

15        A.   Major Mihajlo Galic.

16        Q.   And below Galic, it says what?

17        A.   Major Dragutinovic.  Major Dragutinovic.

18        Q.   And is that your signature?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Can you -- if can you remember, can you just tell us a bit about

21     this -- this map that was -- was retrieved from the Zvornik Brigade in

22     1998 in a search?  For example, is it an account of the battles

23     afterward, or is it a -- an account of the battles before, or during

24     or -- or what?

25        A.   As far as I can see, the dates are the 1st of September, 1992 to

Page 32290

 1     the end of December.

 2             You can see it in the left-hand side corner, and it says "working

 3     map of the operations department."

 4        Q.   Yes, and we have a translated version of that on the next page,

 5     but I don't think we need worry about that.

 6             What I -- what's the purpose of this map?  What is this map

 7     designed to depict?  For example, we see blue and red around the

 8     Srebrenica enclave area, and we see blue and red along what is the front

 9     line area.

10             Can you just give us a little background on this map.  What is

11     it, what's it depicting?

12        A.   The purpose of this map is to provide an outline of the

13     participation and activities of the Zvornik Brigade at a certain point in

14     time.

15        Q.   And does that include the -- what the -- how the Zvornik Brigade

16     was deployed and the directions they went in during the Srebrenica

17     operation that you've been describing?

18        A.   Yes, in the left part.  This is the defence line of the Zvornik

19     Brigade.  It partly goes all the way to Vlasenica, Milici, Sekovici, in

20     the direction of Doboj.  This is a rather generalised map.

21             And in the right-hand side corner, you can see the contours of a

22     line depicting activities around Srebrenica and the enclave itself.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to a blow-up of one section.  It should

25     be page 16.  If we could ... here we go.  And if we could bring it down a

Page 32291

 1     little bit so we can get the north of the map.  Perhaps that's it.  Thank

 2     you.

 3        Q.   The blue circle in the north of the map --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we blow that up a bit.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Now, we can now see the village of Jaglici that is within the

 8     general boundaries of that more oval than circle and a feature called

 9     Milacevici.  What is that oval, blue marking, what is that designed to

10     depict?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to come to the microphone.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, could you come -- could you speak

13     into the microphone, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

15             This is it the general sector of withdrawal of the 28th Division

16     from the Suceska sector towards the northern part of the enclave into the

17     Jaglici and Milacevici villages sector.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Okay.  Can you take a pen and write just a circle --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

21             Witness, you'll be provided with a pen with which you can write

22     on the screen.  But wait for a second.  The usher will assist you.  And

23     do not start marking anything before you have received clear instructions

24     to do so.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 32292

 1        Q.   Can you study the map a bit, find where Suceska is noted.  As you

 2     mentioned to us, you are a surveyor, a geometra [phoen].  Do you see

 3     where Suceska is?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Can you just put an oval around the feature of Suceska.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   All right.  And you've also mentioned the feature of Bojne.

 8     Could you ... well, you missed the B but that's going to have be close

 9     enough.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   And Viogor.

12        A.   I believe that this is enough.

13        Q.   Okay.  And now can you -- you've also mentioned Viogor.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And if we look carefully, we can see -- you've got the V and the

16     i of Viogor, which is written in large letters, vertically on the map.

17        A.   Viogor is bigger, but this is a sector of the deployment of the

18     tactical group along the Srebrenica-Milici road.  And it suffices for me

19     to just show you where Tactical Group 1 was.  I believe that this was

20     enough.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now the red arrows that we see, we see them protruding

22     from the south of the map going north across Bojne and Srebrenica.  Does

23     that reflect the axis of the -- of the movement of those troops?

24        A.   You mean the VRS?

25        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

Page 32293

 1        A.   Yes.  In the upper part of the map, according to our task, the

 2     line that we were supposed to reach was the line that I encircled.

 3        Q.   At Bojne?

 4        A.   Yes, Bojne.

 5        Q.   And the red lines that are going due west on the map towards

 6     Suceska, is that the area that you and your unit, Tactical Group 1, were

 7     taking on the 12th of July?

 8        A.   In principle, this is the axis that was used by both

 9     Tactical Group 1 and 2 to move along the road Srebrenica-Viogor-Milici

10     old road.

11        Q.   Did you draw this or -- is that why your name's on it?

12        A.   Probably.  If my name's there, then it will be me.

13        Q.   And so this red arrow in the north of the map that is coming down

14     from a village called Borici through to Potocari, that reflects the

15     movement, that reflects the movement [Overlapping speakers] ...

16        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.

17        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... of the Serb forces on -- that took the

18     Potocari area; correct?

19        A.   In principle, that was the task of a unit.  I can't remember

20     which one.  That's why I just outlined that another unit would be in

21     charge of that task.  I -- even didn't put its name on the map.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Map marked by the witness would receive,

25     Madam Registrar, number.

Page 32294

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the map would receive P7148.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 04287.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  If we could show the Serbian version of

 7     this for the witness and perhaps leave the big one up so he can get a

 8     view of it.

 9        Q.   Witness, you may recall seeing this before but it's from the

10     Zvornik Brigade command and it's for July.  And we can see that in the --

11     in the translation --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey was asking for having the B/C/S

13     version exclusively on the screen.  Yes.  And now could it be enlarged.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

15        Q.   And we see --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  May be a bit hard to make out but ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you looking for the witnesses?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We should see number 8.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  8.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   And could you just briefly tell us what this is?  We see it's for

22     Juli 1995.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to move to the microphone.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you asked to [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 32295

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  In that case I won't

 2     see anything on the screen.  It's too far.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  The usher would assist in

 4     re-directing the microphone in such a way that you can both see it and

 5     that can you be heard as well.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This records presence of manpower

 9     in the Zvornik Brigade.  The purpose of this is to check the engagement

10     of the manpower, and I can see my name under number 8.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  That's all I need.  I'd like to offer

12     this into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, I don't understand what all these

15     markings mean.  I'm not quite sure I understand the purpose now of

16     tendering this document.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, can we --

18        Q.   Can you explain to us briefly what these markings mean, how it

19     relates to attendance ...

20        A.   In principle, where you see pluses, that means that the person

21     was present in the unit.  Letter T means that the person is in the unit

22     but somewhere on a mission in the field.  A C means that the person is on

23     furlough.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We've got a T in black and a T in red.  Can you

25     explain the difference?

Page 32296

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No difference at all.  People used

 2     different pens.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to the English, please, and keep that

 5     up on the screen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You tendered it.  I heard of no objections.

 7     Apparently it's -- it will be further explained, Mr. -- you'll further

 8     explore this evidence, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  There's a legend in -- on page 4 in the

10     English.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could we have a look at that then to see what

12     is explained us to there.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's -- let's go to page 3 before we go to 4,

14     sorry.

15        Q.   So, sir, in English, we see abbreviations and an explanation for

16     who they are, what they mean.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could -- I believe it's page 4 in the

18     B/C/S.

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I may be wrong about that.  I apologise.  All

21     right.  I understand.  Those are noted on the main page and we have just

22     for simplicity noted what they are.  And these are the people and some of

23     their assignments and abbreviations for the month of July.

24        Q.   Is that right, sir?

25        A.   I believe that I can see the month of July written on the

Page 32297

 1     right-hand side.

 2        Q.   And if we could get rid of the English and just blow up the big

 3     one again.

 4             And in the -- the middle of the page, is that -- describes very

 5     initials that mean various things, positions, ranks, et cetera; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honour, this will just help us in the

 9     future in identifying the people and where they are as the story unfolds.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar the number would be.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The number for 04287 will be P7150.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7150 is admitted -- let me just check.  P7150 is

13     admitted.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could now go to 65 ter 30229.

15        Q.   And as we're waiting for that to come up, sir, have you

16     occasionally been the duty officer at the Zvornik Brigade?

17        A.   Yes, but not that often.

18        Q.   All right.  And that's going to be hard for you to read, but,

19     yeah, hopefully you can make it out.  It's from the command of the

20     Drina Corps dated 7 March 1995.  It is entitled:  Signals table.  And

21     it's to the 5th Mixed Artillery Regiment Command, and it says:  "We're

22     sending you attached a table of signals in the Drina Corps PVO, which is

23     an anti-aircraft defence system, called Grabovica."

24             Is that correct?

25        A.   I can see that but I don't see a link to myself at all.

Page 32298

 1        Q.   Well, let's read the next sentence.  It says:  "This signals

 2     table is to be used for communicating via communications equipment only

 3     among the duty operations centre of the Drina Corps and the duty officer

 4     in the brigades (independent battalions)."

 5             And we can see it says:  "Brigade (independent battalion)

 6     commands will produce their own signals tables for command work in the

 7     PVO system with their subordinate unit."

 8             Then it says:  "The Grabovica signals table comes into effect on

 9     10 March 1995 at 1400 hours."

10             As a duty officer, did you have to be aware of this kind of a

11     signals information?

12        A.   Every duty officer should have a signals table.  And these

13     signals tables are used whenever there is an imminent air-strike, which

14     was announced, or things like that.  This serves to instruct the units to

15     prepare for defence, to be on alert, and so on and so forth.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, I'd offer this into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar the number would be.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  30229 receives number 7151.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P7151 is admitted.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One last related document and I think --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We are over the time already.  But if it would

22     conclude this portion then perhaps, if you move to a totally different

23     subject, with the indulgence of those who are assisting us, please move

24     on.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  65 ter 30230.

Page 32299

 1        Q.   Sir, this is my understanding that this was the table that was

 2     attached to this letter.  And is this the kind of thing that you would

 3     have been familiar with?  We can see that there's various statements,

 4     such as in number 8, "attack on aerial targets, forbidden."

 5             And then it says one to ten, "Bura", then 11 to 21, "Cer," and

 6     then 22 to 31, "Golub".

 7             Does this mean that during those various dates of July there's a

 8     different code-name for not attacking aerial targets?

 9        A.   You can see yourself that from a certain time to a certain time,

10     codes, i.e., names, were changed.  From a certain point in time to

11     another point in time the code-name would be "sun" and from 11 to 22

12     would be "night" and then "cloud."  Therefore, those signals would be

13     used either for the launch of action or for any other thing.  As a matter

14     of fact, that is anti-aircraft defence.

15        Q.   All right.

16        A.   This is in favour of protecting corps units, i.e., brigade units,

17     and their troops from possible air-strikes.  Let's not even mention whose

18     air force would that be.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a good place to stop.  I will offer it

20     into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 30230 receives number P7152.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day but not until after I have

25     instructed you that you should not speak to anyone or communicate with

Page 32300

 1     whomever, not at breakfast, not at lunch, not at 5.00 p.m., with whomever

 2     about your testimony.  That includes how you have experienced your

 3     presence in court when giving your testimony.

 4             Is that clear to you, that you should not in any way communicate

 5     with whomever about anything related to your testimony?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may now follow the usher.  We'd like to see

 8     you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn, I re-read the portion of the 2007

11     testimony, and I think I was a bit confused by the word sometimes "was"

12     sometimes "had been," and that I may have changed my understanding on

13     where the conversations between Pandurevic and the witness are the

14     subject of the testimony and when it was about the meeting, re-reading

15     it, it makes clear to me that it was conversation about what had happened

16     the previous day, that is, at least the content of the testimony again in

17     2007.

18             So, therefore, my request to report if there would be any change

19     in cross-examination is not applicable any further.

20             We adjourn for the day and after having thanked all those

21     assisting us, we adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday, the 26th of February,

22     9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

25                           February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.