Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32388

 1                           Monday, 2 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted in the

11     courtroom.

12             And good morning to everyone again.

13             I briefly deal with two matters.  The first -- both dealing with

14     the testimony of Milenko Jevdjevic.

15             The first one.  On the 23rd of February of this year, during the

16     testimony of the said witness, the Prosecution noted that the English

17     translation of Exhibit P7059 was incomplete.  This can be found at

18     transcript page 32095.  And on 25th of February, the Prosecution informed

19     chamber via an e-mail that a revised translation had been uploaded into

20     e-court under doc ID 0204-2643-ET and the Registry is hereby instructed

21     to replace the existing translation with the revised one.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Krcmar.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

Page 32389

 1     you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

 2     beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

 3     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, good morning.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Before I continue, I would just offer, since I forgot

 8     to offer into evidence, two documents we discussed on Thursday.  It's

 9     1D5364, to be MFI'd, since there is no translation.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 1D5364 receives number?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D919.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D919 is marked for identification.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  And another one is 1D5367, also to be

14     MFI'd.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D920.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D920 is marked for identification.

18             Please proceed.

19                           WITNESS:  GORAN KRCMAR [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, the Chamber has heard evidence

23     stating that there were members of the Muslim and Croat peoples in the

24     ranks of the VRS.  Do you know whether there were any prisoners, Muslims

25     and Croats, people taken prisoner by the Muslim forces?

Page 32390

 1        A.   Yes.  Just like members of the VRS were taken prisoner, Croats

 2     and Muslims were taken prisoner by their police too.

 3        Q.   What was your knowledge?  How were they treated in the prisons of

 4     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the camps of the Army of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes, when I spoke to them during the exchanges, the information I

 7     received was that they fared worse than Serb prisoners in these prisons

 8     and camps precisely because they belonged to the Muslim or Croat peoples.

 9     That is to say, they were beaten.  There were a lot of beatings.  They

10     were treated inhumanely.  Although treatment of Serbs was not correct

11     either, but they had special treatment in prisons.

12        Q.   Were there any Muslims or Serbs who had been taken prisoner and

13     who did not want to be exchanged, and if you could explain that briefly?

14        A.   As for Serbs who were taken prisoner and were in Muslim prisons,

15     they all expected the day of exchange.  However, as far as Muslims in

16     Serb prisons are concerned, there are cases when they did not want to be

17     exchanged precisely because of that explanation, that they would be

18     mobilised again and that they would have to fight a war again.  They

19     asked for contact with the International Red Cross and they asked to go

20     to third countries.  We established these contacts for them, but,

21     nevertheless, we had to take them to the line of exchange so that they

22     could state their views before the other side, namely, that they did not

23     wish to go to the other side, so that they could go to third countries,

24     and they could, this way, provide scope for us for an unhindered

25     exchange.

Page 32391

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, for pages now, this happened in general,

 2     there, et cetera, without any verifiable facts.  Just for you to know

 3     that, of course, this Chamber very much appreciates if it hears detailed

 4     facts such as where this happened, how this happened, et cetera.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Krcmar, you heard what the Judge is interested in.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you have --

 9        A.   I understand, I understand.  The exchanges that took place

10     between the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska and the

11     5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Bihac, we had quite a

12     few situations when people did not cross over to the side of the

13     5th Corps.

14             As for names, I really cannot go into that now because over

15     10.000 names were dealt with.  People who were exchanged on both sides.

16     I simply cannot remember all of these names, but there were cases like

17     this, yes.

18        Q.   Now that you're talking about that area, Bihac and the 5th Corps,

19     do you know anything about exchanges of prisoners that happened between

20     the Muslim-protected factions, that is to say, the army that was in

21     Western Bosnia, the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, and the

22     5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   Yes, I attended several meetings where missing persons from both

24     sides were discussed.  When I say "from both sides," I mean the 5th Corps

25     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of the Autonomous Region

Page 32392

 1     of Western Bosnia.  That is to say, the two Muslim armies.  It was very

 2     hard to establish co-operation between those two warring parties.

 3             The International Committee of the Red Cross acted as an

 4     intermediary and even asked us to help bring these two sides to the

 5     negotiating table.  Although we managed to organise joint meetings, the

 6     process of talks was rather painstaking and rather difficult precisely

 7     between these two warring parties.

 8        Q.   Who addressed you on behalf of the international community asking

 9     to you mediate in these negotiations?

10        A.   As I've already said, the ICRC and the representatives of the UN

11     at the time, that is to say, the representative was, I think,

12     Ivan Betir [phoen].  I think that was the name.

13             After the war, that gentleman remained in the territory of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was an officer in the IPTF.

15        Q.   We talked about registering mortal remains in morgues.  During

16     the course of your work, did you come across any official information as

17     to how many Muslims from Srebrenica went missing in July 1995?

18        A.   I did not come across such information at all because the

19     official lists of missing persons, both in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in

20     Srebrenica, there actually is no such thing.  All of that is within the

21     sphere of guess-work, day-to-day politics, or presenting the kind of

22     information that may suit someone at some point in time.  So, as I've

23     already said in my statement, right now in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 8- to

24     13.000 missing persons is the figure that is being bandied about in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina now, which really cannot be serious.

Page 32393

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P4008, please, could we have that

 2     document.

 3        Q.   I would like to ask you something about this document once we

 4     have it on our screens.

 5             During proofing, I showed you this document; do you remember?

 6        A.   Yes, I know what this is.

 7        Q.   What is your understanding of this document?

 8        A.   This document shows that the state Commission for the Exchange of

 9     Prisoners of War headed by Dragan Bulajic reached an agreement with the

10     Muslim side about the exchange of prisoners of war.  What I do not see

11     here is that the military commission negotiated about the exchange

12     because the military commission did not have the mandate to talk about

13     exchanges with the other side when it is civilians that are being

14     referred to.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us please take a look at the last

16     paragraph.

17        Q.   So the president of the state commission, Dragan Bulajic, shall

18     be allowed to transfer all prisoners from our prisons to Kula prison in

19     the area of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in order to have the exchange

20     conducted simultaneously on the 5th of October, 1994, and the

21     11th of October, 1994.

22             Why, then, do we see General Tolimir's signature on this

23     document?

24        A.   Well, the Main Staff co-ordinated the issue of POWs and

25     exchanges.  As far as I can see, this has to do with an exchange of POWs

Page 32394

 1     where there were civilians involved too.  So if they were in prisons of

 2     the corps, it is logical that the Main Staff had to be involved in such

 3     exchanges or in the release of prisoners from prisons that were in the

 4     area of responsibility of the corps.  If they were really prisoners in

 5     prison.  I repeat once again:  This is an exchange that was agreed upon

 6     by the civilian commission, and probably before that, there was some kind

 7     of agreement reached at the level of the civilian commission and the

 8     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  We did not have the mandate

 9     or right to discuss anything with regard to civilians on either side.

10     These were clear instructions that we had from the Main Staff.

11        Q.   What kind of preparations were supposed to be carried out at the

12     confrontation line?

13        A.   In order to have an exchange of POWs, because there were war

14     operations still going on, the Main Staff or the corps command had to

15     make a decision on a cease-fire.  So such an activity could not be

16     carried out without the agreement of the Main Staff, actually without a

17     cessation of combat operations.  The civilian commission did not have a

18     mechanism or the mandate to stop combat operations because the army was

19     not under its authority.  Also there were other cases when civilians

20     would cross from one side to the other.  But again, I repeat, that is the

21     Main Staff that had to give their agreement so that combat operations

22     would be stopped on either side.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly just go back to the

24     video now.  I think is in indispensable for the sake of context for us to

25     see two other clips.  D917 MFI, that's what we're going to see on our

Page 32395

 1     screens now.

 2        Q.   Let's look at 31 minutes, 18 seconds to 31 minutes, 37 seconds,

 3     and then I'll have a question for you.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know any of the Serbian soldiers who were killed?

 7        A.   Yes, I know all the three who were first taken prisoners and then

 8     killed on the 21st of September, 1992.

 9             It happened between Maglaj Teslic and Tesanj at the feature known

10     as Crni Vrh.  We can see a Mujahedin here holding a severed Serbian head

11     in his hand.  His name is Nenad Petkovic.  His father's name was

12     Tomislav.  All the three bodies were received beheaded.  To this very day

13     the heads have not been found.  All the families have been insisting and

14     calling every day in order to have heads found.

15             I would like to say something else but the case of

16     Nenad Petkovic.  We can see his severed head in the video-clip.  When the

17     bodies were buried, they would not tell his mother that the body was

18     without a head.  Sometime after the war, on the way to Belgrade in

19     Serbia, she was reading a Serbian magazine and she saw her son's head

20     being held by Mujahedin and she died after that.

21             Let me also say that the other two men are Djuric and Blagojevic.

22        Q.   Were those photos published in the media already during the war?

23     When were those photos obtained?

24        A.   Yes.  Perhaps a couple months after those events, during combat a

25     soldier of the BiH army was killed.  He was a Mujahedin.  Around his neck

Page 32396

 1     a camera was found.  The film in the camera was developed and that's how

 2     these photos and some other photos were obtained.  These photos were

 3     publicised and -- and people felt hatred.  They wanted to revenge, to

 4     retaliate, for the way the prisoners of war were treated.  Bearing in

 5     mind that that was done by the BiH army and its members who hailed from

 6     other states rather than from Bosnian-Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   And now just briefly let me show you something else.  And that

 8     will bring us to the end of the video.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1 hour, 37 minutes, 14 seconds is the

10     beginning, to 1 hour 37 minutes, 48 seconds.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The head was severed at the third

13     cervical vertebrae which is destroyed at that place, showing that the

14     neck was cut by a blow from the blade of a sharp mechanical object."

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you know who was doing the post-mortem of the bodies?

17        A.   The pathologist was Zoran Stankovic, a forensic expert affiliated

18     with the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade.

19        Q.   When did this happen and where?

20        A.   These bodies were found in Podrinje in the place called Skelani.

21     Forty locals of -- of Skelani were skilled on the 16th of January, 1993,

22     and their heads were severed.

23        Q.   And when was the post-mortem done?

24        A.   Immediately after the people were killed.  The Muslim forces

25     attacked Serbian villages, killed people, and then withdrew.  They left

Page 32397

 1     the bodies behind.  The bodies were then discovered, and then a judiciary

 2     order was issued, post-mortems were carried out, and this was taken from

 3     the archives of the MUP of Serbia.  That was in 1993.

 4        Q.   Was the general public abreast of this?

 5        A.   Yes.  The general public followed all of those events.  And all

 6     one can feel when looking at these scenes is horror, just as we are

 7     horrified today when we are looking at things like that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can remove that from the screen.

10        Q.   Do you have your statement before you?

11        A.   No, not yet.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please be provided with his

13     statement.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   At the beginning of your testimony, Judge Orie said that we

16     should provide an explanation of the annexes at the end of your

17     statement, those that we tendered as associated exhibits.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D05233.

19        Q.   Mr. Krcmar, could you tell us where this image from and what does

20     it represent?

21        A.   This is an excerpt from the site entitled:  "The missing in

22     Republika Srpska."  This is an electronic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina which

23     depicts all the municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina where burial sites

24     of the Serbian people were found and all the other exhumations that was

25     carried out by the office of the missing persons in Republika Srpska.

Page 32398

 1             In these municipalities, if we were to open each and every one of

 2     them, we would arrive at 1400 locations of individual and mass graves

 3     where a total of 4100 missing persons were found.  Out of them we

 4     identified about 3500 as I have stated in my statement.

 5             And if we look at Republika Srpska, you will see that there are

 6     municipalities there where the bodies of Serb soldiers have been exhumed.

 7     These municipalities represent the places where our commission carried

 8     out the exhumation of Muslims and Croats that we later handed over to the

 9     commission of the federation.  If we knew that there were burial sites,

10     we carried out -- carried out exhumations of all the bodies that were

11     found there, not only the bodies of Serbs.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, what we see on the screen, is it

13     supposed to be an earlier version of the original?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I don't understand the question, Your Honour, I'm not

15     sure if I understood the question.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see the left side it's in B/C/S.  The right side

17     is in English.

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's already on the site in both languages.  This is

19     a copy from the site since we cannot have the site in the evidence.  So

20     we copied several pages from that site, and I will ask this gentleman

21     about the site as well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So these are not supposed to be a translation of

24     the other.

25             MR. LUKIC:  There is translation already on that site --

Page 32399

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The right side is not a translation of the left

 2     side.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but is already on the site.  So you just click

 4     the button and you change the language.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you should clarify.  It is not a translation

 6     prepared by CLSS.  It is an English version which is found on the same

 7     web site as where the -- the Serbian version is found.  And that means

 8     about accuracy, we do not know yet.  It may be very accurate.  But that

 9     is what it is but --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But for sure --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are not the same.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They are not the same.  They are different.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you look and it doesn't take you a lot

14     of time to see on the right on the English version there are at the left

15     bottom, there are two red dots, whereas in the original there are four.

16             So, therefore, the accuracy of it seems not yet to be fully

17     established.

18             MR. LUKIC:  As you know, the sites are alive so they are

19     refreshed over time.  So probably the B/C/S version is refreshed faster

20     than English version.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever explanation you have for it, it may be

22     clear that on first sight that at least - explained by whatever - there

23     are differences between the left one, that is the B/C/S one, and the

24     right one which is the English one.

25             Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

Page 32400

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Just to briefly ask that the Defence make clear

 2     which they intend to rely upon.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We will definitely rely on B/C/S version.  And, if

 4     necessary, we will add -- although we can explain those differences as

 5     well.  I think that it's easy, since those places are municipalities --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't testify.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't testify.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, my -- I would say

10     it's not the first time I put the question.  What is here in dispute,

11     that there were -- apparently this is to show that there were many

12     graves, including mass graves, as you said, and it is explained in

13     paragraph 48.  This apparently is image 1-1, which, as you say, of what

14     the witness said, that there are 1400 graves with -- in a total -- a

15     total of 4100 bodies were found.

16             I don't know whether that's dispute about that or -- perhaps not

17     the exact number but in general terms.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Right.  In general terms there is no dispute

19     regarding numbers.  Of course, we're happy to speak with the Defence and

20     see if it's possible to come a more specific agreement as well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, you can see the difference on the

24     screen.  In B/C/S, we can see four red dots, and in the English version,

25     we can see only two.  Where are the municipalities, do they have anything

Page 32401

 1     to do with the map?

 2        A.   I need to explain.  I am the creator of this web site.  My

 3     intention was to show the suffering of the Serbian people in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If you will allow me, the institutions of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, when they mounted an exhibition, they excluded all

 6     Serbian burial sites.  That's why we created this site.  There are no

 7     misunderstandings here.  Let me just say that on the left-hand side we

 8     can see the municipalities of Zadar, Pakrac, and Split.  Is this correct?

 9        Q.   Yes, it is.  And Slavonski Brod.

10        A.   Yes, and Slavonski Brod.  These municipalities are not in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They are in the Republic of Croatia.  We found some

12     Serbs who were missing from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina there.

13     So we can easily ignore these municipalities because they are not on the

14     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   And now we can --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  What we can ignore and what we cannot

17     ignore is, first of all, for the Chamber to make up.

18             Mr. Lukic, it is not only that text.  There are really

19     differences between the two.  For example, if you look at approximately

20     at the middle of the left side, in the B/C/S version I see two blue dots.

21     On the other version, I see only one blue dot.  So, therefore, there are

22     differences, there are -- it -- they're just not the same.  And if you

23     say, Well, we can explain that, well, first of all, why -- in general

24     there is no dispute about it, that there were many mass graves -- many

25     graves including graves containing many bodies.  Therefore, the one is

Page 32402

 1     not the same as the other.  And whether it can be explained or not, every

 2     exhibit should be accompanied by a translation, a reliable translation,

 3     accurate translation.  Which of the two do you take as your starting

 4     point?  Do you start with the English, then we need a better version of

 5     the B/C/S.  If you start with a B/C/S version, then we need a better one

 6     in English.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We start with B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  B/C/S.  Okay.  Then for the time being, we do not

 9     have an accurate English version of this document, although, let's be

10     fair as well, it seems that most of the dots are the same, but there are

11     many differences.

12             MR. LUKIC:  There are some differences.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Many, many differences.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  We'll do our best to correct the differences,

17     Your Honours.  So this is then -- just use English translation to help

18     Your Honours to understand.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If you agree with the Prosecution on what it more or

20     less depicts and the Prosecution seems to be ready do that, then that

21     saves you a lot of work.

22             Please proceed.

23             Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And I can say we're in continuing discussions with

25     the Defence about demographic evidence and numbers of dots.

Page 32403

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll wait for the outcome of that.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  If we can have 1D05234, please.

 4             Again, to be on the safe side, I will rely on the B/C/S version.

 5     I don't know how it stands now.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, let me ask you this:  How often is

 7     this site refreshed and updated?  Has it been updated recently?  Have you

 8     had any problems with updating the site?

 9        A.   As far as the B/C/S version is concerned, it is accurate and

10     correct.

11             The English version takes a bit more time because some technical

12     issues have to be resolved and a translator has to be hired to do that.

13     We rely on the B/C/S version because we're talking about the area of

14     former -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, and most of

15     the interested parties come from there.  This is a technical issue

16     because there's a discrepancy between the English version and the B/C/S

17     version, but there's nothing wrong with the B/C/S version.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What do we have before us on the screen?  Just

19     briefly.

20        A.   If we click on one of the municipalities from the previous map,

21     this time we are dealing with Sarajevo, the municipality Centar, the

22     centre, and it shows how many mass graves were found there.

23             Could we zoom in a bit so that I can comment?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since the English version is not identical with

25     the B/C/S, we can remove the English one, because the last paragraph, the

Page 32404

 1     fourth bullet point is much longer in B/C/S than in English.

 2             So if that can be enlarged, the witness can easily read it.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is precisely what we see

 4     here, municipality of Sarajevo, Centar.  Let me sate that Sarajevo

 5     consists of ten municipalities.

 6             Here we see that in the municipality of Centar, four mass graves

 7     were found.  The first one is 28 bodies.  The other one is 36 bodies.

 8     The third one is 16 bodies.  And over here we have three other bodies

 9     from the Lav mass grave.  Also we can open this version where we see the

10     individual graves; that is to say, there is this distinction between

11     individual graves and mass graves.  This time we tried to show mass

12     graves.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D05235, could we please see that

16     now.

17        Q.   What is this before us?

18        A.   Before us is the process of exhumation of one of these four mass

19     graves that were shown.  This is the so-called Lav mass grave where

20     36 bodies were exhumed.  The Lav mass grave is in the very centre of

21     Sarajevo below the Kosevo hospital.  These photographs show how the

22     exhumation took place.  There are nine photographs.  And on the

23     right-hand side, we have a PDF document that is a list of the bodies that

24     were identified from that mass grave and then there are other bodies that

25     were not identified and they were marked by an NN.

Page 32405

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, could you please explain what you mean

 2     by on the right-hand side we see a list of victims?  Perhaps if you click

 3     on the screen, then you will find it, but I don't see a list.  Can you

 4     explain that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we continue, we will see.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I say what I wanted to say.

 7             Maybe we should remove the English because again they're not

 8     identical, these documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, any dispute, Mr. Traldi, about an exhumation

10     of the number of 36 bodies of Serb -- of Serbs?

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I think it best be treated as part of

12     our ongoing discussions with the Defence.  Specific numbers remain sort

13     of a matter of communication between the parties.  Certainly no dispute

14     that there are mass graves in the Sarajevo area or that there's one at

15     Lav.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I will skip now, since there are only enlarged

18     photographs we see on this one, from 1D05236 up to 1D05243.  And then I

19     would go to 1D05244.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Maybe it's easier for you on the screen.  I hope

21     that this translation is the same.

22             What is this before us, Mr. Krcmar?

23        A.   Precisely what I said a moment ago.  If we open the PDF document,

24     we will see the list of all the bodies that were found.  If they were

25     identified, then we have the names and surnames of the identified persons

Page 32406

 1     and their details.  If they are NN, then they remain there as

 2     unidentified.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Lukic, there was a similar list attached to

 4     the statement of the witness, but that one is not identical to what we

 5     see on our screen, isn't it?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  It's not.  That's what we discovered during our

 7     preparations.  Because this one is -- from the computer.  Has not been

 8     uploaded into the -- on the web site yet.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Web site is slower process, especially English part

11     of the web site.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, do you want to rely on the one that we

13     have on the screen now or -- because we have as an associated exhibit, of

14     course, we have what seems to be --

15             MR. LUKIC:  I would rather rely on this one and it can be

16     replaced which is in the statement since it's a more recent one.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The one on the screen is more recent?

18             MR. LUKIC:  No, one in the statement is more recent.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The one in the statement is more recent, yes.  It at

20     least gives more details about the -- especially about the unknown

21     deceased persons, including where they are found in the ICMP list,

22     et cetera.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, what do you know about the

Page 32407

 1     exhumations themselves?  What is your role?

 2        A.   I don't understand your question.  Could you please repeat?

 3        Q.   What do you know about exhumations in the field?  What is your

 4     role?

 5        A.   From 1996, I have been attending exhumations.  Out of these

 6     1400 locations, I have dealt with over 80 per cent of them.  My role in

 7     the quest for missing persons starts with the initial reporting of a

 8     missing person either by the family or unit; setting up a database;

 9     seeking information on the ground; locating graves, mass graves,

10     individual graves; marking graves; familiarizing the judiciaries in

11     charge of the locations found; and submitting requests to these

12     institutions for carrying out exhumations.

13             I took part the exhumations themselves, then also the

14     transportation of bodies, keeping bodies, post-mortems, taking part in

15     forensic post-mortems.  Then identification, inviting families to these

16     identifications, communicating results, and finally handing over the

17     bodies for burial to the families.  So that is a complete process, from

18     beginning to end.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I would kindly ask now to have D91 --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, what do you intend to

21     do?  You say you would rely on the more recent one?

22             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to place this gentleman's statement on

23     the screen and that page from his statement.  Not this 1D exhibit.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but they are all mentioned as -- they are

25     mentioned in the statement of the witness and we find the pictures of the

Page 32408

 1     newer -- do you want to upload them into e-court so that we have not the

 2     one as we find it on our screen, but we have the one which is attached to

 3     the witness's evidence --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  That [overlapping speakers] --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you still have to upload, then, the newer

 6     versions.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'm somewhat surprised because the statement was

 9     taken in July 2014, that's eight months ago, and now eight months later

10     you still come with what seems to be an older version, which would mean

11     prior to July 2014.  I don't know when you uploaded it.  I don't know

12     what you -- where you got it from, but for eight months you are at least

13     aware that there's a newer one with more information, which is not in

14     e-court.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I -- we tried to download from the site what we found

16     on the site, but in the statement, that's true, are newer --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you're supposed to copy this from the

18     statement, scan it, copy it, upload it into e-court so that at least we

19     have the same versions in e-court as we find them as attached to the

20     statement of the witness.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  We need D916 on our screens.  And we need page 14.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] The Lav grave is in front of us now.

24             First of all, where were these people found?  What kind of grave

25     is this?

Page 32409

 1        A.   Since we've skipped these photographs, I need to explain.

 2             These bodies were found 4 metres away from the road, underneath

 3     the Kosevo hospital, deep down, after the bodies that were later buried.

 4     Actually, over the Lav grave, newborn children were buried.  So we had

 5     quite a few problems in order to carry out this exhumation; namely that

 6     we could remove the newborns in order to reach this grave.  There were

 7     terrible obstructions from the federal commission and they did not allow

 8     the removal of these bodies.  So the grave containing 36 bodies was

 9     masked with the bodies of newborn babies.

10        Q.   On this table, the third group horizontally from the bottom, the

11     first column, it says Fadil Kujovic.  In your view, what would his

12     ethnicity be?

13        A.   He's a Muslim.  We identified that body, and we handed it over to

14     the family so that they could bury him.  The identification took place in

15     2012, as far as I can see here.

16        Q.   Samir Hasanbegovic is next to him?

17        A.   Yes.  Samir Hasanbegovic who was born in 1968, 1968.  He is also

18     a Muslim.

19        Q.   And in line 3, just one line up, we see Djelal Hodzic.  That's

20     what's written there.

21        A.   Yes.  Djelal Hodzic, born in 1956, is also a Muslim.  These

22     bodies were identified considerably earlier and handed over to Sejo Koso,

23     a member of the exchanges commission, and then he handed the bodies over

24     to the families for burial.

25        Q.   These three Muslims, were they found together with the Serbs who

Page 32410

 1     were buried, as you say, very deep, 4 metres deep?

 2        A.   They were found with the Serbs.  I did not say that it was

 3     4 metres deep.  I said that it was 4 metres away from the road.  The

 4     depth was 2 metres.

 5        Q.   During the course of your work, did you find out how come these

 6     three bodies of deceased Muslims were buried there?  Do you know how they

 7     lost their lives?

 8        A.   Since this is Sarajevo, the centre of town, the Serb army and

 9     Serbs could not be in Sarajevo at the time.  That is to say, this was

10     directly under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  How they

11     died, we don't know.  Just like we don't know how come these Serbs of

12     ours were killed too.  Probably somebody tried to conceal a crime and

13     bury them together with Serbs.

14             I would just like to add one more thing.  What happened --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you do so, you say you don't know how they

16     died.  Have any post-mortems been conducted on these bodies?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all the bodies that were

18     exhumed, all 4.100 were dealt with forensically -- well, yes, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about these.  It says 36.  I think I

20     find 39 boxes in the scheme, but were post-mortems conducted on those

21     persons found here?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, 39.  And now I'm

23     going to explain the 39.  Yes, all of them were dealt with forensically,

24     but a forensic medical expert can testify about that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But do you know the outcome of it?  I mean, I'm not

Page 32411

 1     asking for any details, but in your work, did you ever find that they

 2     were killed, for example, by shot wounds or that they were killed by

 3     strangling?  I mean, sometimes even without knowing the details of the

 4     forensic expert conclusions, you sometimes can read what the final

 5     conclusion is.

 6             Are you aware of the conclusion in relation to these persons in

 7     general and, more specifically, about the three Muslims found among them?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that they suffered a

 9     forceable death, a violent death.  I suppose that forensic experts could

10     tell you more about the nature of their wounds.  I can't talk about that.

11     I only know that they died a violent death.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  It's break time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's break time anyhow.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I can inform that I will use less time than I

16     announced.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And how much time --

18             MR. LUKIC:  10, 15 minutes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  10, 15 minutes left.  Then we'll take a break.

20             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, and you may follow the

21     usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

Page 32412

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to come in, I'll

 2     deal with the second remaining issue related to the testimony of

 3     Milenko Jevdjevic.

 4             P7136 was marked for identification on the 23rd of February of

 5     this year, during the testimony of Jevdjevic, pending a translation.

 6     This can be found at transcript page 32082.  On the 25th of February, the

 7     Prosecution informed the Chamber via an e-mail that a translation had

 8     been uploaded into e-court under doc ID number 0320-4600-ET.  The Chamber

 9     hereby instructs the Registry to attach the translation and admits into

10     evidence P7136 under seal.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you're invited to

13     proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, we're coming to the end of this

16     examination.  I'm going to ask you how many Serbs have been exhumed in

17     Sarajevo so far?

18        A.   A total of 471 bodies have been exhumed so far.

19        Q.   Was anybody held accountable, was anybody convicted for crimes

20     against the Serbs in Sarajevo?

21        A.   As far as I know, nobody has been held accountable for the

22     471 bodies that I have just mentioned.  There was a trial in respect of a

23     group of perpetrators or a group of victims, but in that case, the person

24     was found to be unfit for trial.

25        Q.   It hasn't been recorded.  What burial site was that about?

Page 32413

 1        A.   It was the burial site called Kazani, a pit above Sarajevo into

 2     which the bodies of the Serbs were thrown.

 3        Q.   Since we have mentioned that burial site, what has happened to

 4     it?

 5        A.   That grave, in the course of 1993 and 1994, was moved from that

 6     location.  The bodies were moved to Sarajevo, and they were buried in the

 7     Kosevo football pitch in Sarajevo.  A total of 27 bodies were buried

 8     there.  There was 27 markings during the exhumation, 26 bodies were

 9     buried, and the last -- one of the last markings, actually, marked the

10     bones of an animal, of a dog.

11        Q.   You said the auxiliary Kosevo football pitch; right?

12        A.   Yes, it's a football pitch in Sarajevo.

13        Q.   Are we talking football?

14        A.   Yes, football.  Football.

15        Q.   And now let's move to Bihac.  Only in our minds, of course.  Is

16     there a barracks in Bihac?

17        A.   Yes.  Its name is Adil Beslic.  It used to be called the

18     Luka barracks during the war.  Now it's the barracks of the armed forces

19     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        Q.   During the war, who was billeted there?

21        A.   The command of the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22     was billeted there during the war.

23        Q.   How is your work connected to the barracks?

24        A.   I know that in the course of 1994 and in 1995, 21 Serbian

25     prisoners were held there.  We were involved in negotiations to set those

Page 32414

 1     people free.  Unfortunately, they never came out alive.  All the

 2     21 prisoners were killed in the barracks.

 3             In the course of 1996, we received six bodies in exchange from

 4     that barracks and we identified them.  On several occasions, we tried to

 5     carry out an exhumation, and then in the year 2000, in that same barracks

 6     where the forces of the BiH are now billeted, we found a mass grave

 7     containing eight bodies of the 21.  They were exhumed, identified, and

 8     their bodies were handed over to their families.  In that barracks, there

 9     are still the bodies of seven people.  We obtained that information owing

10     to the fact that we actually bought the information.  Our informer had

11     told us about the remaining seven bodies, and that the former commander

12     who was billeted in the barracks as well as the current commanders of the

13     barracks should be aware of their whereabouts.

14        Q.   Who were members of the command during the war?

15        A.   During the war, one of the commanders of the barracks for

16     logistics was Major Mujo Begic.

17        Q.   And now what is his position?

18        A.   Mujo Begic has obtained a doctoral degree, his topic was war

19     crime, and he is the head of the office of the Institute for Missing

20     Persons of Bosnia-Herzegovina headquartered in Bihac.

21        Q.   You said that he was the head of the Bihac office?

22        A.   Yes, that what's I said.

23        Q.   How many offices does the institute of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24     currently have?

25        A.   Currently they are there 16 offices of the institute located

Page 32415

 1     around Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Since the federal offices have been established, how many Serbs

 3     have these 16 offices located over the past six years?

 4        A.   Thirteen offices are on the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation side,

 5     and those 13 offices have located only three Serb bodies.  Two in

 6     Zavidovici and one in the territory of Travnik.

 7        Q.   Mr. Krcmar, thank you.  This is all that we had prepared for you.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

10             Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

11             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Krcmar, you'll now be cross-examined by

13     Mr. Traldi.  You find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel

14     for the Prosecution.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

18        Q.   Good morning, sir.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Now, sir, you testified in the Delic case; right?

21        A.   I did.

22        Q.   And you gave statements to the OTP in 2005 and 2007, as you've

23     discussed earlier; right?

24        A.   I have not received interpretation.  No interpretation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat your question, Mr. Traldi.

Page 32416

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   And your testimony in the Delic case, as well as the statements

 4     you gave in 2005 and 2007, that was truthful evidence you were providing;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, you gave an interview to the OTP in 2010 as well; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you tell the truth on that occasion too?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, you mention you're head of the Department for Tracing

12     Missing Persons in the State Centre for War Crimes Research.  That's

13     obviously the Republika Srpska Centre for Tracing Missing Persons; right?

14        A.   I think we were talking at cross-purposes.  I was the head of a

15     team of the government of Republika Srpska for tracing missing persons up

16     to 2012.

17             In 2012, the republican centre and the operative were merged into

18     one institution and now it's called Republican Centre for the Research of

19     War Crimes and Tracing Missing Persons.  I am currently the chief of the

20     Department for Tracing Missing Persons.  I'm not the head of the entire

21     centre.

22        Q.   Now, your work up to 2012 had been with the Republika Srpska

23     government; right?

24        A.   From 1996 until this very day, I have been working for the

25     government of Republika Srpska.  But the names of the institution has

Page 32417

 1     changed.  It was the institute, the commission, the office, the

 2     operative, and now it is the republican centre.  However, my job has

 3     remained the same.

 4        Q.   And in that job, it's fair to say your work focuses largely on

 5     cases involving missing Serbs; right?

 6        A.   Amongst other things.  However, in my work, as I've already told

 7     you, we have also traced over 300 missing Muslims and Croats.

 8        Q.   Now you mentioned the number of 4100 people on direct examination

 9     that were reflected on the web site.  Are the 300 Muslims and Croats you

10     just mentioned included in those 4100 or additional to it?

11        A.   The site comprises only those persons who were reported to us as

12     missing.  In this case, the 300 people have never been reported to us.

13     We found them, exhumed them, and we handed them over to the federal

14     commission or directly to their families, depending on the case.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm aware we're talking about your area of professional

16     expertise, but I'd just ask you to try to provide a focused answer to the

17     questions that I'm asking you.

18             And, in this case, I take it, that those 300 people are not part

19     of the 4.100 you mentioned earlier; right?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.  With them, it would be over 4100, so they

21     would be on top of the figure.  You are right there.

22        Q.   Now while your work primarily relates to missing Serbs, you

23     co-operate with institutions that are looking for missing Muslims as

24     well, you go to meetings together, talk to them about your work; right?

25        A.   Yes, that was up to 2008.  That's how things were up to then.

Page 32418

 1        Q.   And in the course of doing so, you receive information about

 2     missing Muslims, missing Croats, and also you learn about crimes that may

 3     have been committed that resulted in those people becoming missing;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now I want to turn now two of the terms you discussed on direct

 7     examination and try to distinguish very carefully, if you'll assist us.

 8             First, the term "cases" that you discussed at some length, that

 9     refers to bodies or parts of bodies that have been located but have not

10     yet been identified; right?

11        A.   Only body parts.  Bodies are bodies.  In the forensic science

12     there is not a term "case."  That term, the term "case" has been

13     established --

14        Q.   Sir, I'm going to -- I'd asked a very specific question and I

15     understood you to answer that the term "cases" refers to body parts;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, the term "missing persons," on the other hand, refers to

19     persons who have been reported as missing and whose remains have not yet

20     been identified; right?

21        A.   Yes, everybody who has a name.  The first and the last names.

22        Q.   And the parts of bodies that comprise cases as a general rule,

23     have been exhumed years after the war, sometimes 20 or more years after

24     they'd been killed; right?

25        A.   Yes.  Ever since 1996.

Page 32419

 1        Q.   And many of them are partial because the bodies were buried in

 2     mass graves and often reburied, moved to other locations or -- sorry,

 3     excavated, moved to other locations and reburied, in that order, of

 4     course, using heavy machinery of the sort that might disturb the

 5     integrity of a given set of remains; right?

 6        A.   Yes, there were cases like that.  Bodies were, indeed, moved into

 7     secondary graves.

 8        Q.   And you're aware that, for instance, the ICMP maintains a very

 9     large database of genetic samples so as to compare remains which are

10     located and tested to about 150.000 samples of the DNA of relatives of

11     people who have been reported as missing; right?

12        A.   Yes, whenever families provided blood for DNA testing, ICMP has

13     the results.  But there were also cases of families refusing to provide a

14     sample and that's where the ICMP has a problem.  There are also cases

15     where all the families went missing or there's not a very close family

16     member to provide a blood sample.

17        Q.   Now, you estimated on Thursday that there about 2.500 bodies in

18     morgues pending identification.  And you'd agree with me that separate

19     from those bodies still in the morgue, 20 years after the conflict, there

20     are 7.000 or more people, based on publicly available information, who

21     have been reported missing and whose remains have not yet been

22     identified; right?

23        A.   That's not the case.  We cannot agree about that.  We cannot

24     agree that there 7.000 cases pending.  There is no record of missing

25     persons in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's why the figure is being

Page 32420

 1     manipulated and ranges from 8.000 to 13.000.  I'm not going to state and

 2     favour any of these figures because there is not a clear record.  The

 3     record hasn't been established so it is really not serious to come up

 4     with any figures.

 5        Q.   I'm going to leave that topic for the moment and I'm going to

 6     turn now to your evidence about the 1st Krajina Corps Exchange Commission

 7     which you discussed in your statement and very briefly during direct

 8     examination.

 9             Now, you mentioned that each of the VRS corps had its own

10     exchange commission.  Did those exchange commissions all function

11     similarly within their areas of responsibility?

12        A.   There were six commissions.  They operated based on the

13     instructions received from the corps commands and the Main Staff of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska.  And then depending on the situation of the

15     commission or the corps and the number of losses, they did what they were

16     supposed to do, but I -- we cannot say that they functioned in the same

17     way because the issues that they dealt with and the circumstances were

18     different.

19        Q.   I understand they wouldn't have faced exactly the same issues or

20     circumstances.  But they functioned under similar regulations, similar

21     orders, addressing similar types of problems; right?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   Now you say you began serving as a member of the commission in

24     1993.  Who was your immediate superior when you were a member of the

25     commission?

Page 32421

 1        A.   Nedeljko Savic, the president of the commission.

 2        Q.   And who was his superior?

 3        A.   Along the hierarchy line of the command, it was the department

 4     for morale, guidance, and religious issues, the commission was under its

 5     authority, and the person in charge was Colonel Jovo Blazanovic, if I'm

 6     not mistaken.

 7        Q.   Now, in your statement you discuss -- you provide evidence about

 8     prisoners and about the activities of the exchange commission.  Should we

 9     understand your evidence about prisoners and about the activities of the

10     exchange commission to refer to the time-period when you served as a

11     member of the exchange commission?

12        A.   We can say from April 1993 until April 1996.

13        Q.   Now, you discuss both civilian and military exchange commissions

14     in your statement.  The military exchange commissions had close

15     co-operation with the civilian exchange commissions; right?

16        A.   We co-operated closely with the civilian commission for the

17     exchange but that went through the Main Staff of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska and the corps commands.  We couldn't do anything without

19     their instruction or if information was not provided to us either by a

20     corps command or the Main Staff.  It all depended on the problem and its

21     gravity.

22        Q.   And at times, with the consent, of course, and on the order of

23     your superior commands, you would co-operate with the civilian commission

24     in the implementation of a particular exchange; right?  A particular

25     exchange might involve organising efforts and representatives of both the

Page 32422

 1     military exchange commission and the civilian exchange commission.

 2        A.   I did not understand you.  Did you mention the Supreme Command?

 3     Did you have in mind the Main Staff or who did you have in mind?

 4        Q.   When I referred to your superior commands, I was referring to the

 5     corps command and the Main Staff as you had just referred to, sir.

 6        A.   Yes.  Now I understand.  You may continue.

 7        Q.   Before I do, would you mind answering the question that I had

 8     asked.  And I can repeat it, if that would assist.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps that would be good.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   So with the consent and on the order of your superior commands,

12     which refers to the corps command and the Main Staff, you would

13     co-operate with the civilian commission in the implementation of

14     particular exchanges; right?  A particular exchange might involve

15     organising efforts by and representatives of both the military exchange

16     commission and the civilian exchange commission.

17        A.   Yes, we worked exclusively on the instructions of the Main Staff

18     and the corps commands.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's still not an answer to the question.

20             The question was whether on particular exchanges the civilian

21     commission and the military commission would have a joint effort in

22     organising such exchanges.  That was the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't have any joint exchanges.

24     If a civilian commission agreed the exchange, it would be in charge of

25     its implementation.  And if, on the other hand, it was a military

Page 32423

 1     commission who agreed an exchange, it would also implement it.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Let me perhaps see if can I ask in a very focused way.

 4             There were times, weren't there, when, at a particular time in a

 5     particular place, the civilian exchange commission and the military

 6     exchange commission both brought people to that place to be exchanged,

 7     and people were received from the Muslim side in the course of being

 8     exchanged; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  But everybody brought people in within the domain of their

10     own agreement and handed them over.

11        Q.   And among the members of the civilian exchange commission -- I'm

12     speaking now of the Republika Srpska level civilian exchange commission

13     at the time you served on the 1st Krajina Corps commission, so April 1993

14     through the end of the war.  During that period, there were VRS officers

15     who served on the civilian exchange commission; right?

16        A.   On the commission of the 1st Krajina Corps, nobody worked in the

17     civilian commission.  Nobody from there.

18        Q.   Well, sir, I'm going to sorry to interrupt and just clarify.  You

19     referred to a man named Dragan Bulajic in your statement.  That's

20     Captain Dragan Bulajic; right?

21        A.   I don't know what rank Mr. Bulajic held.  He was on the civilian

22     commission, not the military commission, and he had no authority with

23     regard to resolving the question of POWs.  He had nothing to do with the

24     Main Staff and our military commissions.  So he was appointed by the

25     president of the republic, not the Main Staff, not the corps.

Page 32424

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   Also he did not report to us.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm certainly not -- I didn't ask whether he reported to

 4     you.  I didn't ask who appointed him.  All I asked is:  Dragan Bulajic

 5     was a VRS officer; right?

 6        A.   As far as I know, Dragan Bulajic was not a soldier of the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska, the VRS.

 8        Q.   Do you know what job he held in 1992 before he became president

 9     of the civilian exchange commission?

10        A.   I really don't know.

11        Q.   Well, let's look at a document.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 08207.

13        Q.   Now, this is a document sent by the Sokolac municipality's POW

14     exchange committee.  It's dated the 9th of November, 1992, and it's

15     addressed to the Army of Republika Srpska, Lukavica committee for

16     exchange and freeing of POWs.  Attention:  President Dragan Bulajic.

17             Now, the Army of Republika Srpska exchange committee based at

18     Lukavica was, of course, the SRK's exchange commission; right?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, did you say SRK?

20             MR. TRALDI:  I did and --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're translated as RSK.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And that's a very important distinction.  Thank you

23     very much, Your Honour.  I'll reask.

24        Q.   The Army of Republika Srpska exchange committee based at Lukavica

25     was the exchange commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS;

Page 32425

 1     right?

 2        A.   As far as I know, that's where the headquarters were of the

 3     military commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at Lukavica and

 4     Dragan Bulajic had separate office at Lukavica.  But this has to do with

 5     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  I can testify here about the

 6     1st Krajina Corps.

 7        Q.   Sir, you co-operated with -- your corps' exchange commission

 8     co-operated with the other corps' exchange commissions; right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   In fact, you knew what building Dragan Bulajic's office was in,

11     as you've just testified, didn't you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When you said that Captain Bulajic had an office at Lukavica, two

14     follow-up questions.

15             First, you're referring to the Lukavica barracks; right?

16        A.   In the barracks, that's where the military commission was.  Maybe

17     I should make a correction.  I think that Mr. Dragan Bulajic had an

18     office at Grbavica.  I think.  I am afraid that I may be making a

19     mistake.  But these were two separate offices, not one, which is what you

20     have been alluding to.

21        Q.   Well, what I'm alluding to is what this document clearly says

22     about November 1992.  When you say that they had separate offices, you're

23     referring to the period when you were on the exchange commission, 1993

24     through the end of the war; right?

25        A.   Yes, but you're asking me something that is outside the authority

Page 32426

 1     of my corps and outside the time when I was on the commission for

 2     exchanges.

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4        A.   I really cannot testify about this because I --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me be clear on that.  Whatever your

 6     authority was or the authority of your corps, you're questioned about

 7     what you know.  If you know anything about it, tell us; if you say, I

 8     don't know, tell us as well.  But don't tell us that it was beyond your

 9     responsibilities and that for that reason you can't give testimony on

10     that.  Whatever you know, you're supposed to tell us in response to

11     questions.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 08207.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'm a bit hesitant but I would object since this

16     gentleman has no knowledge about this document and has nothing to do with

17     the time-period.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he testified about offices in Lukavica and

19     that Lukavica was barracks different from Grbavica.  So therefore the

20     witness did, although not extensively, testify on this document.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document number 08207 receives

23     number P7158.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 32427

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence from a Main Staff officer

 3     named Spiro Pereula.  He also served on the civilian exchange commission;

 4     right?

 5        A.   I don't know anything about that man.

 6        Q.   Now returning to Captain Bulajic.  He was appointed president of

 7     the civilian exchange commission in 1993; right?

 8        A.   I don't know when he was appointed.  He was appointed president

 9     of the civilian commission, now I don't know exactly -- was it 1993?

10        Q.   Well, before him, there was a president of the civilian

11     commission named Nenad Vanovac; right?

12        A.   I really do not know about the structure of the civilian

13     commission.  In 1993, when I arrived, Dragan Bulajic was there.  I really

14     don't know --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end of

16     the answer.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, have you been asked to repeat the end of your answer.  The

19     interpreters weren't able to hear it.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all unnecessary

21     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about these

23     people.  In 1993, when I was appointed to the commission of the

24     1st Krajina Corps, Dragan Bulajic was also president of the civilian

25     commission.  I'm not aware of the structure as it existed before that.

Page 32428

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, it's your evidence that it was the civilian exchange

 3     commission that was responsible for exchanging non-Serb civilians who,

 4     through that process, were exchanged out of Republika Srpska territory;

 5     right?

 6        A.   I assert that the civilian commission did not have the mandate to

 7     deal with the military and that it was in charge of civilian affairs,

 8     civilian persons and --

 9        Q.   Sir, I'd ask you to confirm, if you can, the specific proposition

10     that I put to you, that it's your evidence that the civilian exchange

11     commission was responsible for exchanging non-Serb civilians who, through

12     that process, were exchanged out of Republika Srpska territory.  Is that

13     your evidence, yes or no?

14        A.   No, not in this sense.  The civilian commission was in charge of

15     civilians, all Serbs, Croats, Muslims, all the rest.

16        Q.   The people that the civilian commission exchanged with the

17     commission on the Muslim or Croat side, those people left

18     Republika Srpska as a result of the exchanges, didn't they?

19        A.   I didn't go into the powers of that commission, what they did,

20     how they did that.  I can repeat this.  I can testify about the military

21     commission, military exchanges.  I was not on that other commission.  I

22     don't know what people did.  I know that --

23        Q.   Sir --

24        A.   Please.

25        Q.   I put to you that the reason that you are suggesting that you

Page 32429

 1     don't know that the civilian exchange commission exchanged civilians who

 2     left Republika Srpska as a result, is that you're aware that it's alleged

 3     that the civilian exchange commission, in doing so, was -- was part of

 4     the process of ethnically cleansing Serb-claimed territory.  You're aware

 5     of those allegations, aren't you?

 6        A.   That is what you are claiming.  That is not what I have been

 7     claiming.

 8        Q.   You're aware that since the war, in fact, beginning early in the

 9     war, allegations were made that the exchange process was part of the

10     machinery of ethnic cleansing; right?

11        A.   No.  Please.  There was a process of exchanging POWs that I can

12     testify about here.  What you have asked me about is something that I

13     cannot testify about because I did not take part that any such thing.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, sometimes we -- even without taking part in

15     something, you may have knowledge about it.  If you have any knowledge

16     about it, please tell us, irrespective of whether you took part in it.

17     And one of the previous questions that Mr. Traldi put to you is whether

18     the civilians who were exchanged, in the context of that exchange left

19     Republika Srpska.  That was a question which has not been answered yet by

20     you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall respond to you,

22     Your Honour.

23             Civilians, as far as I know, were not exchanged.  Civilians left

24     voluntarily in organised fashion, either to third countries or the

25     territory of the present-day Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 32430

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But irrespective now, those who -- no, I leave it to

 2     that.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Sir, I put to you that Captain Bulajic was the president of an

 6     exchange commission, not a people-leaving-voluntarily commission and your

 7     testimony in this regard is not credible.  Do you have any comment on

 8     that?

 9        A.   I have no comment what -- as to what Dragan Bulajic did.  But I

10     repeated to you a moment ago what it was that I know.

11        Q.   I'm going to turn now to another area of what you know --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before do you that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do that, I would kindly ask the

15     witness to explain the word "in organised fashion."  You said:

16     "Civilians left voluntarily in organised fashion."  Who organised that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say about Banja Luka because

18     I'm from Banja Luka and I was there at the time.  There was an agency

19     that organised departures of persons from Banja Luka.  They applied to

20     that agency, and I know that when we, military commissions, negotiated

21     with the other sides, then that time was used for people to take buses

22     and come to the separation line and cross to the other side from there.

23     That is to say, these departures were organised.  Now was it for family

24     reunification or something like that, people left in that organised way.

25     They didn't leave out of detention facilities or prisons but they left of

Page 32431

 1     their own free will.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You didn't quite answer my question.  I was

 3     asking you who organised that?  Because you said in general terms it

 4     was -- they left in organised fashion.  Now you said:  "There was an

 5     agency that organised departures of persons from Banja Luka."  Which

 6     agency?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot, I really don't know the

 8     exact answer now.  There was this agency of the government that had

 9     nothing do with the military.  This agency that was for the departure of

10     these persons.  Now whether some people went to third countries, I know

11     that you could go that way and I know that people could go to the

12     present-day territory of the federation.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said "this agency of the government."  Which

14     government?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you what it is that I know.

16     Really.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which government?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an agency of the government

19     of Republika Srpska that had an agency.  Now, did it really belong to the

20     government of Republika Srpska?  I know that such an agency did exist,

21     but it was not within the domain of my own work.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one follow-up question to you.

24             You said there were no exchanges.  People only voluntarily left.

25     One of your answers, and I read it, was, asked about civilian commission

Page 32432

 1     and the military commission:

 2             "We didn't have any joint exchanges.  If a civilian commission

 3     agreed exchange, it would be in charge of its implementation.  And if, on

 4     the other hand, it was a military commission who agreed an exchange, it

 5     would also implement it."

 6             Which at least suggests that you have the opinion that civilian

 7     commission agreed exchanges and not only facilitated voluntary departure.

 8             Any comment on what I just read?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a comment.  As for

10     the Federation, many Serbs from that side came to Republika Srpska

11     voluntarily on buses.  Also, on the same day, from Banja Luka, from

12     Republika Srpska, actually, Muslims and Croats would cross over to the

13     other side.  Now can we call that an exchange or could we call it a

14     crossing?  That is a question of terminology.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   The head of the agency in Banja Luka that you referred to a

18     moment, you know that to be Radovan Glogovac, don't you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, the Chamber has also received evidence from him.  He

21     testified he was appointed to the exchange commission at the suggestion

22     of President Karadzic and of Minister Ostojic.  Were you aware of that?

23        A.   No, no.

24        Q.   I'm going to turn now to another area.  I notice in your

25     statement you claim you were mobilised into the VRS at the beginning of

Page 32433

 1     the war.  In fact, in May 1992, you became a member of the special unit

 2     of the Banja Luka CSB; right?

 3        A.   Yes, I was mobilised first into the corps military police.  The

 4     army, that is, the Army of Republika Srpska.  And then I was transferred.

 5     My military occupational specialty is that of policeman, so then I was

 6     assigned to the civilian police and I spent some time there, I don't know

 7     exactly how long, and then I returned to the Army of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   I'm going to explore that in a little more detail but I want to

 9     start with a couple of very focused questions.

10             Who was it, if you recall, that told you you had been assigned to

11     the civilian police?

12        A.   I don't understand.  I don't understand the question.  Who said

13     what to me?  I was called up, and my VES, my military occupational

14     specialty, was that of a policeman.

15        Q.   Well, you said were mobilised into the military and then you were

16     assigned to the civilian police.  How was it that you were assigned to

17     the civilian police.  How was that communicated to you?

18        A.   Well, probably call-up.  After all these years, I cannot give an

19     answer.  It's been a long time, and I've really been dealing with other

20     problems, a lot more difficult ones, so this was not in the focus of my

21     attention.

22        Q.   When you were called up and told you were part of this special

23     civilian police unit, you reported to a place called Rakovacke Bare in

24     the Banja Luka area; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's where that unit was stationed, that police unit.

Page 32434

 1        Q.   And that had previously been a JNA facility; right?

 2        A.   I really don't know.  I really don't know what it was used for.

 3        Q.   A lot of people who had been in the military police with you came

 4     over to this civilian police unit together with you; right?

 5        A.   Yes, I saw some of the people who were with me in the military

 6     police.  I saw them there at the civilian police.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 07096.

 8        Q.   As it comes up, this will be a report on the activities of the

 9     CSB Banja Luka Special Police Detachment.

10             Now, at the bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S, and turning to page 2

11     in the English, and in the English, we're at the bottom of page 2, we

12     read that in co-operation with the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     army units, the detachment participated in combat, and it refers to the

14     territory of several municipalities, including Bosanski Novi, Prijedor,

15     Sanski Most, and at the end, Kotor Varos.

16             That's right, isn't it, what we read there?

17        A.   Yes, that is precisely what it is written, just as you read it

18     out.

19        Q.   And the detachment did, in fact, participate in combat in

20     co-operation with the VRS in those municipalities; right?

21        A.   Out of these municipalities, I just know about the municipality

22     of Kotor Varos.

23        Q.   When you saw just know about the municipality of Kotor Varos, you

24     mean you were deployed there yourself as a member of this unit; right?

25        A.   Yes.  For a while, for about 15 or 20 days.  I'm not sure.  15?

Page 32435

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document bearing number 07096

 4     receives number P7159.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P7159 is admitted.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   And we discussed members of the military police with you who had

 8     also come over to the special unit.  A number of the members of the

 9     Banja Luka Serb Defence Forces, or SOS, also became part of this special

10     unit; right?

11        A.   I cannot speak about the people who were joining in there.  The

12     people who received call-up papers were there.  I don't really understand

13     what it is that you're asking about when you say "Defence Forces."

14             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have 65 ter 06899.

15        Q.   Now, this is Glas from the 29th of April, 1992.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And in the B/C/S, we're looking for the bottom right

17     part of the page.

18        Q.   And in the third paragraph - sorry, fourth - Stojan Zupljanin,

19     the head of CSB Banja Luka, is quoted as saying -- or is described as

20     saying that:

21             "A large number of the fighters of the Serbian Defence Forces,

22     SOS, being reliable and experienced fighters, would be tested for

23     engagement in the special detachment ..."

24             What I'm putting to you is:  After those tests, many former SOS

25     members became part of this special detachment of the Banja Luka CSB;

Page 32436

 1     right?

 2        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I see what is written here,

 3     but who they are and how they came into being, I really cannot say

 4     anything about that.

 5        Q.   Is it your evidence that you weren't aware what the head of

 6     CSB Banja Luka was saying publicly about the unit that you were a member

 7     of in 1992?

 8        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see we're at or near the time for

10     the break.  I'd tender this document.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would have one follow-up question before we

12     take that break.

13             Are you familiar with a unit or a group which was called the SOS,

14     or is it for the first time that you hear about it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear about the SOS, but I

16     don't know anything about it.  It does ring a bell, but I don't know

17     anything about the composition of that unit, who its members were or any

18     such thing.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  From whom did you hear, and when, about the SOS?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a notorious fact in the town

21     of Banja Luka.  Everybody knew about the existence of the SOS unit.  I

22     don't know who that unit belonged to, whether it belonged to the military

23     or the police, I really don't know who they were.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What, then, was common knowledge about the SOS?  I

25     mean, what was it that everyone knew?

Page 32437

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew about the existence of the

 2     SOS unit.  Others did.  But whatever else I were to tell you, it would

 3     just be my guess-work.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But what did you know about -- well, first of all,

 5     you said you knew what everyone knew.  So there you expressed what

 6     everyone apparently knew.

 7             But what did you know then about the existence of the SOS?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody knew about the existence

 9     of that unit.  I knew it as well.  I don't know who they belonged to, so

10     I can't go into that.  I knew that there was a unit of that kind in

11     Banja Luka, but I don't know anything about its composition or who they

12     belonged to.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But was it just -- first of all, I may have

14     misunderstood or misread one of your previous answers when you said

15     "others did," because my follow-up question was ignoring that part of

16     your answer, and I apologise for that.

17             But now what was it -- you knew that there was a unit of "that

18     kind."  What kind?  Or just under that name?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention what kind of unit

20     it was.  I just said that I knew of it.  I didn't know its composition or

21     hierarchy or who they belonged to.  I just heard of its existence.  I

22     knew that they existed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I referred to the answer which was translated

24     to us as:

25             "I knew that there was a unit of that kind in Banja Luka ..."

Page 32438

 1             So if I understand you well, the talk of the town was SOS exists.

 2     What was the reputation, what was -- what was said about it, apart from

 3     that it exists?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know much about that unit.

 5     It existed, and that's all I knew.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You say, "I didn't know much about that unit."  But

 7     it's just that you say, Well, SOS exists.  That's -- is that a subject of

 8     conversation?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very hard for me to answer

10     that question after such a long time.  I can only say that I was aware of

11     its existence, of the existence of some such unit.  However, after such a

12     long time, I really can't tell you what the talk of the town was in 1992.

13     It was such a long time ago.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take the break, but, Mr. Traldi,

15     anything?

16             MR. TRALDI:  Might I very briefly follow up?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, very briefly then.  Because we are really at

18     the time of the break.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, the Chamber has received evidence that among their other

21     activities, the SOS was responsible for blockading Banja Luka at the

22     beginning of April.  Now, that was, in fact, one of the actions that made

23     them notorious, as you described, wasn't it?

24        A.   I never said that they were notorious, that the unit was

25     notorious.

Page 32439

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'll maintain my request to tender the

 2     document and may have further questions about that unit after the break,

 3     but I won't press any further now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 06899 receives number

 6     P7160.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P7160 is admitted.

 8             We take break and we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But not until after the witness has left the

11     courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

16     courtroom.

17             Meanwhile, the Chamber informs the parties that this Wednesday,

18     at the first break, the Tribunal's photographer will take a panoramic

19     photograph while the court is in session.  This photograph will be used

20     on the Tribunal's "Legacy" web site, and the parties had been previously

21     informed about this through an informal communication.  The taking of the

22     photograph will not exceed two minutes.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed; however, the Chamber

25     noted that the word "notorious" was not unambiguous in its meaning.

Page 32440

 1     Notorious facts do not need to be proven, but the Chamber gained the

 2     impression that you used the word in a way different from what the

 3     witness did.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we have

 6     65 ter 06978.

 7        Q.   Now, this is a list of members of the Banja Luka -- it says SCB

 8     in the English, Special Police Detachment.  The payroll for August 1992.

 9     At number 1 we see Mirko Lukic.  He was the commander; right?

10        A.   Yes, correct.

11        Q.   And then Ljuban Ecim and Zdravko Samardzija, they were also part

12     of the unit's leadership; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  They were the deputies.

14        Q.   And you're aware that Mr. Ecim had been involved with the

15     Banja Luka SOS?

16        A.   I did not know Mr. Ecim personally, really.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 5 in both languages --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the previous answer is not an answer to the

19     question.  The fact was whether you knew that he was involved in the

20     Banja Luka SOS.  Even if you don't know him personally, you may have

21     knowledge about that.  Did you have that kind of knowledge or did you

22     not?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know that, no.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 32441

 1        Q.   Here at number 102, we see your name, the amount you were paid,

 2     and your signature.  Is it correct that as of August 1992, you were still

 3     being paid by the Banja Luka CSB for service in the special unit?

 4        A.   Yes, that was my regular salary.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 06978 receives number

 8     P7161.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 07005, please.

11        Q.   Now, this is a document dated the 14th of August, 1992, sent from

12     CSB Banja Luka to subordinate SJBs.  It's actually listed as the chief of

13     all SJBs.  The command of the 1st Krajina Corps, the chief of the

14     intelligence security organ thereof, and it refers to an order by the

15     Presidency of the Serbian Republic and then says it's implementing that

16     by disbanding the special police detachment and says in the second

17     paragraph:

18             "The troops and materiel are to be reattached to the commander of

19     the 1st Krajina Corps of the Serbian Republic as of the above date."

20             Now it was this order on the basis of which you and other members

21     of the special unit were reattached to the VRS; right?

22        A.   Yes, that was the case.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 07005 receives number

Page 32442

 1     P7162.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32129.  Could we turn to the next

 4     page, please.

 5        Q.   So we see here an order from Stojan Zupljanin dated the 31st of

 6     December, 1992, and it appoints Mr. Ecim and Mr. Samardzija, who you

 7     confirmed earlier were part of the leadership of the special detachment

 8     when you were in it, to positions in the CSB's police brigade.  So it's

 9     right that some of the members of the special unit, including some of the

10     leaders, remained in the service of the Banja Luka CSB after the order we

11     just saw; right?

12        A.   Well, this arises from this document, it seems to be the case.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender the document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 32129 receives number

16     P7163.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to your deployment to Kotor Varos as a

20     member of the special unit.  About how many members of your unit were

21     deployed there with you?

22        A.   We were deployed in two teams.  I went with the second team.  I

23     believe that some 20 of us were deployed on that occasion, and I don't

24     know how many people were deployed with the first team.

25        Q.   Who told you to go to Kotor Varos?

Page 32443

 1        A.   The command.

 2        Q.   Mirko Lukic?

 3        A.   I really can't remember who told me to go.

 4        Q.   And you went -- both of those teams that you're referring to went

 5     to Kotor Varos in June of 1992; right?

 6        A.   Yes, I suppose so.  I suppose it was June.

 7        Q.   And while you were in Kotor Varos, you were accommodated in a

 8     house that was between the Kotor Varos police station and the health

 9     centre; right?

10        A.   Precisely.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32135.

12             Your Honours, just to explain, it's a large file, which is why

13     it's taking a moment to load.  As soon I provide the explanation, it

14     became unnecessary, I apologise.

15        Q.   Sir, this is an aerial image of the part of Kotor Varos we've

16     just discussed taken after the war.  Do you see the Kotor Varos SJB on

17     this image?

18        A.   It is, indeed, an aerial image, so it's very difficult for me to

19     get my bearings.  I know where the SJB in Kotor Varos is, but as I'm

20     looking at this image ... could you perhaps assist me?

21        Q.   If you look at the lower part of the building -- or the image,

22     rather, and perhaps start with the building with a number of cars in the

23     parking lot, look at that area, and see if it assists you in identifying

24     the SJB.

25        A.   Yes, I can see that.

Page 32444

 1        Q.   If you just take a moment and then tell us if, in that area,

 2     you're able to identify one of those buildings as the police station.

 3        A.   I know where the police station is.  I'm confused by this aerial

 4     image, however.  I'm finding it very difficult.  I can't identify it,

 5     really.

 6        Q.   Are you able to recognise the health centre, or the area where it

 7     was?

 8        A.   I can see the football pitch, but for the rest of it, I really

 9     can't, I'm sorry.  I can't.

10        Q.   I won't insist further.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And we can take this off the screen, then.

12        Q.   You mentioned you were between the health centre and the SJB.

13     About how far were you, the house were accommodated in, from the health

14     centre?

15        A.   About 300 metres, approximately, from the gate of the health

16     centre to the house; 300 metres approximately.

17        Q.   And about how far from the SJB?

18        A.   I believe that the house was halfway between the health centre

19     and the SJB.  Halfway.  It's very hard for me to give you the exact

20     distance, not in metres.

21        Q.   Now, the command of your unit was based in the SJB at the time;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And, of course, you got your orders from the command of the unit

25     during your deployment in Kotor Varos; right?

Page 32445

 1        A.   From the commanders who had been appointed to those positions

 2     there.

 3        Q.   Which one gave you your orders while you were deployed in

 4     Kotor Varos?  Which commander?

 5        A.   I can't remember the name.  We were attached to a unit or

 6     whoever.  We were just attached to that unit, so I can't remember any

 7     names.  I already said that to your investigators when they interviewed

 8     me.

 9        Q.   Now, you know part of your unit was also accommodated in a

10     sawmill in Kotor Varos during that time; right?

11        A.   Yes, in the direction of the sawmill.  I never went there.  There

12     was a facility which was previously a shoe factory or some such thing.  I

13     never went there.  I don't know.

14        Q.   The sawmill we're talking about is the Pilana sawmill; right?

15        A.   I didn't go there.  Because there was a danger of sniper fire,

16     and we were suggested not to pass through that open space.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to show a few clips

18     from a video which have collectively been given 65 ter 32131a.  And for

19     two of the four clips, we won't be relying on the audio so those we'll

20     only play once.  They're all quite brief.

21             And for the first one, I say for her benefit, if we could play

22     from the beginning to 3.2 seconds or thereabouts.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   And I'd asked for here, sir, to ask:  Do you recognise the man in

Page 32446

 1     glasses that we see at the forefront of the image?

 2        A.   No, no.  No.

 3        Q.   And the green camouflage uniforms and red berets that we see on

 4     these men, that's the uniform your unit wore during its deployment in

 5     Kotor Varos; right?

 6        A.   No, no.  We had all sorts of uniforms.  We were pretty much left

 7     to our own devices to obtain our uniforms, so there were all sorts of

 8     them.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Let's play forward to 6.7 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   I'm going test your evidence on that in a moment, sir.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   And do you recognise this man?

16        A.   It's not very clear.  The image is not very clear.  Can you

17     rewind just a little and can you replay it from there.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really can't say, no.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Do you recognise the patch he's wearing?

22        A.   There is a patch on his left-side pocket, something red and white

23     but ...

24        Q.   Now, in your interview that you testified was truthful, you

25     suggested this was a patch your unit had gotten when it went to Vecici,

Page 32447

 1     in Kotor Varos, during your deployment there.  Does that refresh your

 2     recollection as to that patch?

 3        A.   I said something else.  Those were daily markings that the troops

 4     wore in order to be recognised on that particular day.  They changed

 5     daily.  One day they were white; the other they were blue.  So it was not

 6     a permanent patch or a permanent marking.

 7        Q.   This is one of those patches that your unit received during its

 8     deployment in Kotor Varos, isn't it?

 9        A.   Probably, probably, yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Then I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the second

11     clip and stop at 10 seconds.  This one we will have to play twice for the

12     audio but the audio doesn't relate to the first ten seconds.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, we can stop there.  And for the record,

15     that's at 4.9 seconds.

16        Q.   Sir, the blue APC that we see in the centre here, that is an

17     armoured personnel carrier that your unit had and used during its

18     deployment in Kotor Varos; right?

19        A.   This is a MUP APC.

20        Q.   And you can tell it's a MUP APC because it's been painted blue;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you recognise --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was also:  Was this vehicle attached

25     to your unit and did your unit use it?

Page 32448

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I used to see it up there.

 2     Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You saw it.  But was it used by your unit?  That

 4     was the question.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Do you recognise the white building in the distance?

 9        A.   I really can't remember this building.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to play the rest of

11     the clip and then we'll play it the second time for the audio.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It having been played for the second time, I would

14     expect interpretation, but I didn't hear anything.  Could we play it

15     again?  You have provided the booth with --

16             MR. TRALDI:  I haven't, but I'm told we have.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could we play it again and then receive

18     translation.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stand right there, hands, three

21     fingers.  Three fingers.  Three.  Three.  That's right."

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Now, first, that's the Kotor Varos SJB that those three men were

24     in at the end of the image, right -- the end of the video?

25        A.   I cannot -- I cannot confirm whether that's that.

Page 32449

 1        Q.   You don't recognise the building where your unit's command was

 2     headquartered during your deployment?

 3        A.   First of all, I never entered that building while I was there;

 4     and secondly, from here, nothing can be recognised.  Everything is

 5     similar, all the buildings are similar.  But I did not enter the police

 6     building while I was there.

 7        Q.   We saw that the man who was being put up against the wall was

 8     told "three fingers" on each side.  That's a Serbian salute, three

 9     fingers; right?

10        A.   Serbs do have this three-finger salute, but I don't see what this

11     has to do with that?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing you have to do is answer the

13     questions.  You don't have to wonder what the one has to do with the

14     other.  That's for the parties and for the Chamber to further consider.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the third clip,

17     the first six seconds only.  This one we won't be relying on any audio.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Now, do you recognise this man?

21        A.   Yes, I know him.

22        Q.   And who's this?

23        A.   That is Nenad Stevandic.

24        Q.   And we see he's wearing the same as we saw on the gentleman

25     earlier, green camouflage, red beret, and the patch that was among the

Page 32450

 1     patches issued to your unit; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  This picture is quite clear so this can be discerned, as

 3     opposed to the previous one.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Now I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart -- we've stopped at

 5     6.6 seconds to be totally precise.

 6             I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the rest of the video.

 7        Q.   And, sir, he is about to walk over to two other men.  At the end

 8     of the video, I'll ask whether you also recognise them.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Did you recognise the two men Mr. Stevandic had walked over to?

12        A.   I recognised one of them.  It's Mr. Ljuban Ecim on the left.  I

13     don't know about the other one.

14        Q.   In the interview, you suggested the other was Nenad Kajkut.

15     Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that that's, in fact,

16     who the other man is?

17        A.   If you were to replay this film again, maybe I could, because,

18     right now, I really couldn't tell.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And we're starting at 20 seconds.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right-hand side, that should be

22     Nenad Kajkut.  I can tell by the moustache, although it's rather

23     difficult to tell here.

24             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have the fourth clip now.  And this one

25     we'll have to play twice.

Page 32451

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You want me to open it for you.

 3             "Huh.

 4             "Open this shit.

 5             "Let me go to get the keys.

 6             "Open it.

 7             "I didn't bring the keys.

 8             "Open this shit, you fucker.  You'll open it now.

 9             "Okay, okay, okay.

10             "Crowbar, open it with a crowbar."

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   The two men in uniform were again wearing green camouflage, red

13     berets, and the same patch we had seen in the previous clips; right?

14        A.   Yes, the same uniforms.

15        Q.   You testified there were 20 men deployed with you.  Did you

16     recognise the people in your unit's uniforms in this clip?

17        A.   I cannot remember.  These are universal uniforms, the ones that

18     we saw a moment ago.  I did not have such a uniform.

19        Q.   You said these are universal uniforms.  You testified a moment

20     ago that the patch was part of daily patches specifically given to

21     members of your unit so they could distinguish each other from people who

22     weren't in the unit.  So it wouldn't work to use something universal for

23     that, would it?

24        A.   Insignia changed daily, but not uniforms.  Insignia, not

25     uniforms.

Page 32452

 1        Q.   Did you recognise the two men in that video that we saw shoving

 2     and kicking the man in the T-shirt and jeans?  Yes or no.

 3        A.   No, I don't know these men.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender that video.  I believe all

 5     four clips are 65 ter 32131a.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, they would receive number P7164.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P7164 is admitted.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Now, at one point during your time in Kotor Varos, you were

11     deployed to the village of Vrbanjci; right?

12        A.   No, we were in Kotor Varos.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 32097.

14        Q.   This is your OTP interview.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And let's start on page 65.  The way the transcript

16     is, it's in both English and B/C/S, so it's one document.

17        Q.   So at the bottom here, you're asked, beginning at line 30:

18             "Was -- Vrbanjci is a Muslim village?"

19             And turning to the next page, you say:

20             "I think it is.  It's possible."

21             You're asked:

22             "Was there -- what time of day was this that you were there?"

23             And you answer:  "It was day-time."

24             And then you're asked some more questions but I'm going to stop

25     there.

Page 32453

 1             It's true that you were deployed to Vrbanjci during your time in

 2     Kotor Varos as a member of the special unit; right?

 3        A.   We were there one day, and I said that in my statement.

 4     Otherwise I was deployed in Kotor Varos, and we talked about that a

 5     moment ago, about that house where we were.  So we were there for one

 6     day, and that is contained in the statement.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, may I take you back.  You were asked:

 8             "Now at one point during your time in Kotor Varos, you were

 9     deployed to the village of Vrbanjci; right."

10             You said:  "No, we were in Kotor Varos."

11             That answer therefore was not accurate.  Because for one day, at

12     one point in time during your stay in Kotor Varos you were in Vrbanjci.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question.

14     At one point in time, that's what I didn't understand, the context of the

15     question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But at one point in time during your time in

17     Kotor Varos, didn't you understand that that was at a moment when you

18     were in Kotor Varos?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that the

20     question referred to a moment.  I didn't understand that question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't understand the question.  Then next time,

22     instead of answering it, ask for clarification.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Now, you learned after the war about crimes that were committed

Page 32454

 1     against the population of Vrbanjci, didn't you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What crimes against that village did you learn about

 4     specifically?

 5        A.   Specifically through conversations and talks with the other side

 6     concerning missing persons and exchanges, we discussed the requests that

 7     were put to us, that is to say, through this work that we dealt with

 8     later.

 9        Q.   Sir, you've answered a different question than the one I asked.

10     I hadn't asked about the mechanics of how you learned about it.  I asked:

11     What do you know, as you sit there today, was done to the people who

12     lived in the village of Vrbanjci?

13        A.   What happened?  I don't know anything, but I know that a large

14     number of missing persons are still being searched for.  But what it was

15     that happened over there, I really don't know.

16        Q.   People who have been missing since 1992.

17        A.   Yes, there are missing persons.  I don't know the exact number.

18        Q.   Now, you're also aware that during your deployment in

19     Kotor Varos, while you were living between the police station and the

20     health centre, dozens of people were killed, Muslims were killed, at and

21     near the health centre in Kotor Varos; right?

22        A.   I don't know about that.  And I said that in my statement, that I

23     don't know about that.

24        Q.   You've never heard in the course of your work and you never heard

25     at that time in 1992 of a mass murder committed just a couple of hundred

Page 32455

 1     metres from where you were living?

 2        A.   No, I really don't know about that.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If I could have just one second, Your Honours.  I

 4     apologise.

 5             Could we have P3711.

 6        Q.   Now, this is an extract of the minutes of the 40th Session of the

 7     Crisis Staff held at 0800 hours on 26th of June, 1992, in Kotor Varos.

 8     And if we look to the bottom of the page in both languages where there's

 9     a reference to Nedjo Djukanovic, right before that we read:

10             "Dr. Gajanin informed the Crisis Staff of the situation as

11     regards casualties and reported on what had been done on the premises of

12     the health centre by members of the special unit, which he had tried to

13     prevent, but was driven away at gunpoint."

14             And then Mr. Djekanovic says he is told someone named Dubocanin,

15     about everything going on in the town and at the health centre, and that

16     information would be provided on the behaviour of the members of the

17     special unit at the meeting with S. Zupljanin, the chief of the CSB,

18     scheduled for the next day.

19             Now, first, very specific question:  This meeting, 26 June 1992,

20     this was during the time that you were in Kotor Varos; right?

21        A.   Yes, I was in Kotor Varos during that period.  But I did not

22     attend this session.

23        Q.   And you were there with just a couple of dozen other members of

24     the special unit, the Crisis Staff knew about it, Dubocanin knew about

25     it.  Is it really your evidence that you had no idea that members of your

Page 32456

 1     relatively small unit had committed mass murder quite close to the home

 2     where you were staying?

 3        A.   First of all, first of all, I came later with 20 men, and up

 4     there there were already almost 100 men.  I said that I came with a group

 5     later, with 20 men.

 6             Secondly, I came some seven or ten days after the first group,

 7     and I stayed there for up to 15 days, maximum.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you, was that the first group,

 9     the 100 men you are referring to?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't understand that

11     question.  The first group consisting of 100 men went to Kotor Varos, and

12     we went seven or ten days later, this group consisting of 20 persons.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- one second.  If you give me one

14     second.

15             Yes, I read one of your previous answers:

16             "I went with the second team.  I believe it was some 20 of us

17     were deployed on that occasion, and I don't know how many people were

18     deployed with the first team."

19             So apparently within half an hour, now you suddenly remember that

20     there were 100 approximately.  Any explanation for not knowing it earlier

21     and now suddenly telling us that these 100 men were the first group?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said around 100, perhaps more,

23     perhaps less.  I did not say precisely how many.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it could have been more,

Page 32457

 1     maybe it could have been less, but ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But your previous answer was:

 3             "And I don't know how many people were deployed with the first

 4     team."

 5             But you knew it because it was around 100.  Any explanation as to

 6     why you didn't tell us at the time how big -- how large that group was?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I'm not sure even now how

 8     many men there were there.  Around 100.  Perhaps more, perhaps less.

 9     However, it's very hard to be precise.  And you're asking me for

10     precision.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking for precision.  I'm asking for an

12     explanation between you telling us that you didn't know how much the

13     first group was, where for the second group you said "some 20," so for

14     the first group, you could have said -- you could have expressed yourself

15     in similar terms, "around," or "some."  And then half an hour later, you

16     know that it was approximately 100.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   You are aware, aren't you, as you sit there today, that members

20     of your unit were involved in committing crimes against non-Serbs in

21     Kotor Varos during your deployment there?

22        A.   I'm not aware of that.  And I know that that unit did not commit

23     any crimes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'm done with this topic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you clarify the last answer, you know

Page 32458

 1     that they did not commit any crimes.  What -- how are you so pertinent in

 2     telling us that you know apparently for sure that they did not?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The crimes that were committed in

 4     Kotor Varos were committed by some other units, the so-called unit Burce

 5     or something like that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the source of knowledge for that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Source of knowledge are post-war

 8     sources of knowledge through the work that I am doing now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you be a bit more precise.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there was this group

11     called Burce, or something like that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Again not an answer to my question, how do you

13     know that.  But, second, how do you know that they were the ones who

14     slaughtered these persons or killed them?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because I am working on

16     missing persons and I took part in the exhumations, all the exhumations

17     in Kotor Varos, with the prosecutor's office and all other teams from

18     Zenica, and I learned about all of this, and that is what I'm testifying

19     about here today.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But from an exhumation, you wouldn't know who

21     killed those who are exhumed, would you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from the exhumations but from

23     conversations with the investigative organs that were working on this.  I

24     knew that because judges, the police, are all in attendance and that is

25     the situation when such questions are being discussed.

Page 32459

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If there are any reports which would further support

 2     the evidence of the witness in this respect, Mr. Lukic and Mr. Traldi, of

 3     course, the Chamber would always like to have an opportunity to -- to

 4     find corroboration of what the witness said.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  We'll certainly check, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Before we do, sir, which crimes specifically in Kotor Varos

 7     municipality were you told that the Burce unit committed?

 8        A.   Well, I think it has to do with Vrbanjci and Grabovica.

 9        Q.   And you're describing what you know to be massacres; yes?

10        A.   No.  I never mentioned any massacres.  I just said that I draw my

11     knowledge from the investigative organs that were carrying out

12     investigations in the post-war period because I was involved, together

13     with these investigative organs.

14        Q.   Sir, you learned from them at exhumations.  Exhumations are

15     related to people who have been killed, not homes that have been looted,

16     right?  These are about people -- these crimes that you referring to,

17     these are about murder; right?

18        A.   I have just been speaking about missing persons, not looted

19     homes.  I think that I was clear enough.  During exhumations, the

20     appropriate institutions are in attendance and they're carrying out

21     investigations and it is only natural about the perpetrators of such

22     crimes.  Precisely when talking to investigative organs who were carrying

23     out these investigations and that was the team in Zenica, that is to say,

24     the court, the prosecutor's office, and the police from Zenica, when

25     speaking to them, I learned about these details that I'm testifying about

Page 32460

 1     here today.

 2        Q.   And the Burce unit, did they also tell you who its commander was?

 3        A.   That I don't know.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question before this page disappears.

 5     Give me a moment.

 6             You were -- at page 71, line 21, Mr. Traldi asked you:

 7             "Sir, which crimes specifically in Kotor Varos municipality were

 8     you told that the Burce unit committed?"

 9             You said:

10             "Well, I think it has to do with Vrbanjci and Grabovica."

11             Now, I think you said Vrbanjci and Grabovica are areas of --

12     names of places.  The question was what crimes?  Which crimes were

13     committed?  Do you think you can answer that question?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I've already said it's the

15     locations where they were committed.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now I have the following question for you.

18             You said you know for sure that your unit did not commit those

19     crimes, that is, killing persons in Vrbanjci, a larger number of persons.

20     Asked you how do you know?  You said, I know because the Burce group

21     committed those crimes.  And now asked about it, what do you know about

22     crimes committed by the Burce unit, you say, Well, I know of locations

23     but not about crimes, which makes your reliance on the Burce group

24     committing crimes in Vrbanjci not very strong because you say you do not

25     know what crimes they, that is, the Burce group, had committed.

Page 32461

 1             Any comment on this analysis of your logic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a comment.  Because

 3     the unit, the special forces of MUP, they did not go into such actions.

 4             Secondly, as far as Vrbanjci is concerned, I said that crimes

 5     were committed, that I know that and I draw that knowledge from my

 6     post-war work.  And I will repeat once again, investigative organs

 7     mentioned this Burce unit that committed these crimes in that particular

 8     place.  What the specific crimes were, I don't know.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But nevertheless you insist that it was the

10     Burce unit who would have committed those killings and at the same time

11     you're telling us that you don't know what crimes they did commit.

12     That -- I have some difficulties in reconciling the two.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt that a crime was

14     committed in Grabovica.  There's no doubt about that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  We started the whole thing

16     with Vrbanjci.  You added Grabovica to it.  We did not.  So let's focus

17     on Vrbanjci and not move away to Grabovica at this moment.

18             Please proceed, continue.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just been testifying on that

20     topic, the knowledge I acquired in the post-war period from the

21     investigative organs that were carrying out this investigation, and I

22     know that they mentioned this group Burce.  That is what I have been

23     talking about.  I don't know what happened during the course of the war.

24     I don't have any knowledge about that.  What I know is what I have been

25     testifying about here.

Page 32462

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to try one more time.  What they told you about

 4     what the Burce group did in Vrbanjci was that that group killed people;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Not that they killed people.  I'm going to repeat from the

 7     umpteenth time:  I found out from the investigative organs that were

 8     carrying out the investigation up there that a crime had been committed

 9     there and the group of Burce has been mentioned.  I don't know anything

10     more about that group.  I don't know who the commander is, where they

11     come from.  There was only mention of this group called Burce.

12        Q.   So I want to make sure I understand the conversation you had that

13     you're recounting to us now.  Somebody told you in Vrbanjci the Burce

14     group committed a crime, and you didn't say, What kind of crime?  Or what

15     were the consequences of it?  Or in relation to your professional work,

16     have the victims ever been found?  You didn't ask any of those questions.

17     The topic was simply dropped and you started talking about something

18     else.  Is that your evidence?

19        A.   No.  I did not depart from the topic.  Investigative actions are

20     carried out by others, the police the judiciary, the Prosecution.

21        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop --

22        A.   That is their mandate and their job.

23        Q.   No one has asked you about whose mandate this is.  What you've

24     been asked is:  Did you simply drop the topic?  You said no.  Okay?  You

25     were told a crime had been committed in Burce -- or by the Burce unit in

Page 32463

 1     Vrbanjci.  The conversation didn't end there, as you've just told us.

 2     What else did you learn about that crime?

 3        A.   I did not learn anything else.  I told you what I learned and how

 4     I learned it, and now you are pushing the topic further, asking me to

 5     give you an answer to a question that I simply cannot answer.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If I could have just one question to complete this

 8     before the break, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   You'd also said, in your view, there was no doubt that a crime

12     had been committed in Grabovica.  That was a mass murder, and you know

13     from your professional work that for almost all the victims, their bodies

14     have never been found; right?

15        A.   The bodies have never been found.  But I didn't say that.  I said

16     there is no doubt about the fact that a crime had been committed there.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I will turn to a new topic after the

18     break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But then again, the same question.  A crime.  What

20     crime?  Theft?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a large number of

22     people in Grabovica are still considered missing.  Through my -- our

23     work, so far -- please, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no.  You said no doubt that a crime has

25     been committed.  Which crime you say there's no doubt about that had been

Page 32464

 1     committed?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A crime against the people missing

 3     from Grabovica who have not been found to this very day.

 4             Very few bones were found in Majdan.  I was there together with

 5     the investigative teams.  And those remains were later identified by DNA

 6     analysis, and it was established that the bones belonged to the persons

 7     who had gone missing from Kotor Varos municipality, i.e., from Grabovica.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's still not a crime, is it?  If someone went

 9     missing, it's not a crime.  What crime, therefore, you said there was no

10     doubt that had been committed?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't intend to justify any crime

12     if a -- somebody's death was violent --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you whether you intend to justify

14     anything.  I'm putting a simple question to you.  And again and again,

15     and it's not the first time, you are going around the question and you do

16     not answer the question.

17             We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

18     You may follow the usher.

19             Mr. Traldi, any idea about the time you'd still need?

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'd say I'm slightly ahead of my estimate but not by

22     very much, and I don't expect in practical terms to finish today.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I must say that I don't have your

24     estimate clearly on my mind at this very moment, but you certainly will

25     assist me.

Page 32465

 1             MR. TRALDI:  My estimate had been two and a half hours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Two and a half hours.  That was -- yes, was

 3     increased.

 4             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

 8     in the courtroom, Mr. Lukic and Mr. Mladic, even when the Court has not

 9     yet entered the courtroom, you should refrain from addressing the public

10     gallery or to seek communications with them.  It has been told several

11     times to you now.  You apparently ignore it again.

12             Mr. Mladic, you are just continuing to do it.  Would you please

13     turn.  Otherwise -- otherwise you'll be removed from the courtroom.  Is

14     that clear?

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now to your evidence about the exchange

20     commission.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Now can we have 65 ter 32128.

22        Q.   Now this is a document coming from Colonel Gojko Vujinovic, the

23     1st Krajina Corps assistant commander for civilian affairs.  And it's

24     dated the 30th of September, 1994.

25             First we see it's titled:  "Exchange of civilian population."

Page 32466

 1     Does that refresh your recollection as to whether civilians were

 2     exchanged?

 3        A.   Yes.  Within the context of exchanges, just as I told you a

 4     little while ago.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And what we see here in the first paragraph is a reference

 6     to the state commission agreeing on an exchange of civilians, Muslims

 7     from Sanski Most for Serbs from Bugojno.  Three buses arriving from

 8     Sanski Most and then a description of the timing of the exchange.  And

 9     then below that it says:

10             "The unit command carry out the necessary tasks to ensure that

11     this is carried out."

12             So VRS units in the area where exchanges of civilians took place

13     had tasks to carry out to facilitate those exchanges; right?

14        A.   Correct.  Conditions had to be put in place for the passage of

15     the buses through the separation line.  In other words, fire had to be

16     discontinued for the buses to go either way.  And that includes the buses

17     coming from Bugojno as well.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32128.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7165.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Now, I want to turn to the exchanges you took direct part in and

24     I want to ask about some of the process of organising one.  I'm going to

25     ask specific questions.

Page 32467

 1             When you would receive -- your exchange commission would receive

 2     a list of soldiers that the ABiH or the HVO was looking for, you would

 3     turn that list over to a member of the exchange commission who was part

 4     of the 1st Krajina Corps' security organ; right?

 5        A.   No, I was a member of the commission for exchanges of the

 6     1st Krajina Corps.  We would forward those lists to the corps command,

 7     seeking an answer to the question as to what had happened to the people

 8     who were on the list.

 9        Q.   Well, specifically the way that would work is that the security

10     organ's representative on the exchange commission would forward it up his

11     chain of command; right?

12        A.   Yes, to the security organ, the corps command, and, if necessary,

13     to the Main Staff.  It all depended on the situation.

14        Q.   So who was the representative on the exchange commission from the

15     1st Krajina Corps' security organ?  What was his name?

16        A.   There were several people as needed.  One of them was Colonel

17     Uros Mirosljevic [phoen] and then Vladimir Sevarika [phoen].  There was

18     another gentleman whose name I cannot recall.

19        Q.   And the commission also included representatives of other organs

20     of the corps command; right?

21        A.   No.  The commission consisted of commission members and the

22     representative of the security organs who monitored the work of the

23     commission.

24        Q.   Was there ever a representative from the religious, morale, and

25     legal affairs organ, to whom you've testified the commission was

Page 32468

 1     subordinated?

 2        A.   Yes, we were under the authority of that organ, but nobody from

 3     that organ was a member of our commission.  We were subordinated to them

 4     or, rather, our work was supervised along the line of profession by them.

 5     But that was all.

 6        Q.   And you say in your statement that you'd receive approvals for

 7     your work by the VRS Main Staff through the corps command.  Who in the

 8     Main Staff would issue such approvals?

 9        A.   It depended on the type of approval that was needed.  For

10     example, if fire had to be discontinued during negotiations, then we

11     would receive approval from the corps command.  There was no need for the

12     Main Staff to be involved.  And if it was about an exchange of prisoners

13     of war, then we would get in touch with the Main Staff.  That was the

14     procedure we followed.

15        Q.   And you haven't answered my original question.  Who on the

16     Main Staff would you get in touch with to receive an approval for such an

17     exchange?

18        A.   I did answer.  We would get in touch with the corps command, and

19     the corps command, in its turn, would address the Main Staff for

20     approval.  We got in touch with the corps command, and then the corps

21     command would address the Main Staff.

22        Q.   Do you know - yes or no - who in the Main Staff would issue the

23     approval for an exchange?

24        A.   The commission who had issued the application through the corps

25     commander.  Again, that was not done directly --

Page 32469

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   -- not directly from them to us.  I don't know if you understood

 3     me.

 4        Q.   Sir, I note that you're not answering my question.  I'm going to

 5     try to put it again very simply.

 6             You say the Main Staff issued approvals for your work.  A moment

 7     ago, you say the Main Staff issued approvals for the exchange of

 8     prisoners.  The Main Staff was comprised of people.  When the Main Staff

 9     issued a document, one of these people's names would appear at the

10     bottom.  When the Main Staff issued an approval for the exchange of

11     prisoners, which of those people's names would appear at the bottom, if

12     you know?

13        A.   Two names appeared.  A naval captain whose name I really don't

14     know.  And Colonel Tolimir was the other.  I believe that there was

15     another person who approved those things, but I can't remember his name.

16        Q.   Was the captain Mr. Beara?

17        A.   No.  I can't remember the name of the person whose rank was naval

18     captain.  That was his rank but I can't remember the name.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 01062.

20        Q.   Now, as it comes up, though you didn't mention him a moment ago,

21     General Mladic had the authority to issue orders about the functioning of

22     the corps's exchange commission; right?

23        A.   I wouldn't know that.  I know that our authority reached up to

24     the corps command.  I don't want to go into the authorities and

25     competencies of General Mladic.

Page 32470

 1        Q.   You're a soldier in the army.  Your evidence is that you don't

 2     know whether the chief of the Main Staff had the authority to issue an

 3     order about your work; is that right?

 4        A.   I said I didn't know.  I didn't see any such document.

 5     Therefore, I can't talk about that.  I don't have any doubts about that.

 6     But I don't know.  I was a member of the corps commission, and there were

 7     six other commissions on top of that.  All the commissions operated with

 8     the Main Staff through their commands, and they sought approval for their

 9     work from the Main Staff.  I was not on the level of the Main Staff.

10     Therefore, I can't testify about that.

11        Q.   Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.  This is a

12     document coming from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13     It's dated the 5th of January, 1993.  It's titled:  "Instructions

14     regarding the exchange of prisoners of war."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In the English it's the singular not the plural,

16     Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.  I misspoken, Mr.  President.  It is

18     the singular, "instruction."

19        Q.   And we see some paragraphs of text.  Below that, we see it's

20     directing that a set of instructions be adhered to, including the forming

21     of commissions for the exchange of prisoners of war in the corps

22     commands; and, at point 3, using a computer to process the records of

23     captured, missing and killed soldiers at the corps level.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Now, if we could turn to the end of the document in

25     both languages.  In the English, we see we've got the very last page that

Page 32471

 1     this is sent to the commands of the various corps.  And if we turn a page

 2     back in the English only, we'll see that this is type signed by

 3     General Mladic.

 4        Q.   Now, does this refresh your recollection as to whether

 5     General Mladic had the authority to issue, in this case, what's labelled

 6     an instruction on the functioning of the corps-level exchange

 7     commissions?

 8        A.   Yes, this is a typed name of General Ratko Mladic.  I already

 9     stated that we received our instructions from the Main Staff.  This is

10     just one of the instructions which was issued in January 1993, whereas I

11     joined the commission in April 1993.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 01062.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 01062 receives number P7166.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn briefly back to the first page of the

17     document.

18        Q.   Now, we see -- for the moment, I'm simple directing your

19     attention to the confidential number on it, 31/15-20/93.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Now could we have 65 ter 32106.

21        Q.   Now, we see here a document coming from the 1st Krajina Corps

22     Command dated the 18th of May, 1993, issued pursuant to order

23     confidential number 31/15-20/93.  Now, I have a couple of questions for

24     you about this document.

25             The first question I have is:  At the end of this first

Page 32472

 1     paragraph, we see that General Talic writes:

 2             "We are authorised to exchange prisoners of war and bodily

 3     remains and help in organising the exchange of civilians and art and

 4     church valuables."

 5             So it's clear from this document that the 1st Krajina Corps

 6     understood itself to be authorised to assist in the exchange of the

 7     civilians; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  But only with assisting and not in implementing.

 9        Q.   Second, we see a list of nine persons being appointed and we see

10     this is dated the 18th of May, 1993.  We don't see your name.  Do you

11     recall when you were appointed and whether it was as part of a different

12     decision?  Sorry, we have eight names in the original.

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, in the month of April 1993, I joined the commission,

14     and I spent perhaps three or four months being there, learning about the

15     way of work of the commission and its purview in order to be able to

16     negotiate with the other side.

17             My name is not here because I was still not appointed as a person

18     who could work and negotiate on behalf of the commission.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, it's been pointed out to me there's a

20     difference in the last name in the B/C/S and the English and so I'm done

21     with the document.  I'll ask that it be marked for identification at this

22     moment and we'll look into that matter further.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that in English a name is added.

24             MR. TRALDI:  It does.  This is --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There are nine names in English and there are eight

Page 32473

 1     in the B/C/S version.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct, Your Honour.  And I apologise for

 3     not looking into it earlier, but I'd simply ask that the document be

 4     marked and we'll look into it now.  Or shortly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The document to be MFI'd unless Judge Fluegge would

 6     have an -- no.

 7             Please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32106 will receive number P7167.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P71 --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be 7167.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's now clearly on the screen.  Is marked

12     for identification.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The problem, Mr. Traldi, in my view, is that

14     there's a name under item 9 added.  That can't be just be a translation

15     error.  Where does it come from if the original doesn't contain this

16     name?

17             MR. TRALDI:  And that what's I'd intended to say we would look

18     into, Your Honour.  I admit I had focused on other aspects of the

19     document in my preparation but I'm not tendering it at the moment.  And

20     we'll report back to the Chamber when we've got something to report, as

21     it were.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear from you.  Please proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P6914.

24        Q.   Now, we saw General Mladic's order or General Mladic's

25     instruction a moment ago referred to maintaining computerised records of

Page 32474

 1     prisoners.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the number again?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  6914.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please say it again.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  6914.  And if we could have page 2 in the English.

 6        Q.   Now, this is a document coming from the Republika Srpska Exchange

 7     Commission.  If we look under the second name, Mihrudin Begovic, we see

 8     the description according to information received from the 1st Krajina

 9     Corps Exchange Commission from their computer, on 14/05/1993.

10             Now, first, it's correct, isn't it, that the 1st Krajina Corps

11     maintained computerised records of prisoners?

12        A.   Within the scope of the technical capabilities that existed at

13     the time.

14        Q.   Now, we see after that information there's a person from Civcije.

15     That's in Doboj municipality; right?

16        A.   Yes, Civcije is near Doboj.

17        Q.   And that this person was transferred to another prison on

18     13th of December, 1992.  We see a reference to a list of persons captured

19     from Manjaca held on -- held in KP Dom Butmir.

20             So the 1st Krajina Corps' computerised records reflected that

21     people were transferred, for instance, from Manjaca to KP Dom Butmir

22     through the network of Republika Srpska detention facilities; right?

23        A.   Yes.  You can see it from this document.  However, the date of

24     the document precedes the time when I was appointed as a commission

25     member, so it would be very hard for me to say anything else about this

Page 32475

 1     document and what I know about it.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask only now about these computerised records.  Who

 3     entered information in those records?

 4        A.   A colleague of ours, Mrs. Mirjana Mira Jokanovic.

 5        Q.   Now did she just type in whatever came to mind or find

 6     information herself, or did somebody tell her what information to enter?

 7        A.   Well, I suppose that somebody must have told her what to type,

 8     i.e., provided her with information.

 9        Q.   So you would provide her with information about prisoners the

10     1st Krajina Corps was holding which she would then enter into these

11     records; is that right?

12        A.   The computer database which was created in 1994 was primarily

13     relative to the persons who went missing and who were on the lists of

14     Republika Srpska.  Also certain documents were entered if the president

15     of the commission deemed it necessary for them to be entered into the

16     computer database.

17        Q.   Well, here it's clear that this information is being reflected as

18     being provided from the computer in May of 1993.  In fact, these records

19     existed no later than the 14th of May, 1993, as we see here; right?

20             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could zoom in on the middle of the page in

21     the B/C/S to assist the witness.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are computer entries.

23     In 1993 we still had problems with technology and it was really an issue

24     as to what could be entered into a computer database, bearing in mind the

25     development of the computer technology and how well versed people were to

Page 32476

 1     use it.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   And, sir, we see this is a person who it says was transferred to

 4     another prison as of the 13th of December, 1992.  That means, I would put

 5     to you, that means transferred from Manjaca to either, as a first step,

 6     either Batkovici or Kula, but outside of the 1st Krajina Corps' area of

 7     responsibility.

 8             So my question to you is:  Did the 1st Krajina Corps already have

 9     computerised records of prisoners in 1992, or did it later, when those

10     records were created, add information about people who had been added in

11     1992 in its area of responsibility on the basis of other records?  If you

12     know.

13        A.   I cannot speak about 1992 because, really, I wasn't there.  As

14     can be seen from my statement, from April 1993 I was on the commission.

15     And you're asking about 1992, and I was not there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is you do not know.  That's the simple

17     answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Because the last three words of the question were

20     "if you know."  You don't know.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32101.

23        Q.   And I'll be continuing to discuss recording information about

24     prisoners although in a slightly different regard.

25             Now, we see -- and here it refers to captured enemy soldiers.  We

Page 32477

 1     see in this document coming from the Command of the 1st Krajina Corps'

 2     Intelligence and Security Department a reference to a letter from the

 3     Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.  Refers to a number of

 4     prisoners.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  If we turn to page 2 in the English.

 6        Q.   And towards the bottom of the B/C/S, below the four names, we

 7     read:

 8             "We also need to ensure that the ICRC registers all the enemy

 9     prisoners in our prisons, apart from those, of course, who are of special

10     interest to us or have committed war crimes against the civilian

11     population and our prisoners."

12             And we see it's type signed by Colonel Stevan Bogojevic.

13             Now, you were aware that it was the position of the 1st Krajina

14     Corps's security and intelligence organ that the ICRC should be allowed

15     to register prisoners except for some prisoners who are of special

16     interest to the security and intelligence organ or prisoners it believed

17     to have committed crimes?

18        A.   I knew of the position that in prisons, all POWs should be

19     registered.  This is a document of the security organs that was not

20     available to me, and I was not aware of this other paragraph.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document as the next

22     public Prosecution exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32101 receives number P7168.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 32478

 1             Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.  We have 90 seconds left.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I was too, Mr. President, and today I think I'll be

 3     cautious and suggest that perhaps we break 90 seconds earlier.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Krcmar, we adjourn for the day.  We'd like to

 5     see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning, tomorrow morning

 6     when we'll conclude your evidence -- we'll conclude hearing your

 7     evidence.  I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

 8     in whatever way with whomever it is about your testimony, whether already

 9     given or still to be given.

10             If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

14     Tuesday, the 3rd of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

15     I.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of March,

18                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.