Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32479

 1                           Tuesday, 3 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that both parties wanted to raise a

12     preliminary matter.

13             Mr. Lukic, you go first.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

15             I just want to direct Your Honours' attention to the filing from

16     yesterday by the Defence.  It's our request for non-sitting week for

17     Easter period, meaning Orthodox Easter.  So, we are facing the same

18     problems as we did during the January holidays, so we -- we -- it's

19     almost impossible for us.  People do not want to talk to us at all.  They

20     should be here and be prepared during Easter, if they want to, and Easter

21     Sunday, if we want to lead them.

22             So we would kindly ask you to consider our problems and we

23     explained that everything is going smoothly and we do not want any -- any

24     interruptions and we would have some probably, many, during that week,

25     actually.

Page 32480

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand for Orthodox Christmas, I

 2     think, we tried to accommodate you, whether --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, you do, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We still have to consider whether we do the same for

 5     Orthodox Easter.  To be fair to you, we had already a non-sitting week on

 6     our minds.  I'm not going to tell you which one, but it was not the one

 7     you have on our mind and we had some other reasons for that.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We will not object to that non-sitting week either.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think it's in everyone's interest to

10     proceed.  Not only in the interests of the international community and

11     the Chamber but also in the interests of the accused.

12             We'll certainly pay proper attention to your filing, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're doing the mathematics today.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'm reluctant to try my hand at mathematics in the

18     morning, Your Honour.

19             But I did want to address the issue that arose yesterday with MFI

20     P7167.  I've checked our records and the situation is we have two

21     versions of the document in the original B/C/S, 1st Krajina Corps

22     document number 485.  One of those versions, the version uploaded in this

23     case we got from the 1st Krajina Corps collection, it includes eight

24     names.  One of those versions we got from a Defence team in a previous

25     trial.  That includes nine names in both English and the B/C/S.  I

Page 32481

 1     provided it to Mr. Lukic this morning.  And we agreed that under the

 2     circumstances, the most practical thing would be that we would simply

 3     rely on the names that are in the 1st Krajina Corps collection version

 4     and not address the matter -- or not clarify the matter further.

 5             We've reviewed the document, the remainder of the B/C/S text is

 6     identical in the two versions.  There is a addition, an ordinal number in

 7     the top right-hand corner.  You can see in the English, it is 131/3.  The

 8     B/C/S of the version we received from that previous Defence team which

 9     has an ERN number one number earlier has the ordinal number is 130/3 so

10     my impression is that relates to that previous trial but we won't be

11     relying on or seeking to ascribe meaning to those four digits either.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and just for the transcript, I think you said

13     the one you received from the Defence tame was 130-3.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  In line 7 of temporary transcript page 3, I'm

15     correctly recorded to have said 131/3 and I see line 9 has now correctly

16     recorded me 130/3 [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... it is now corrected.

18             Yes, of course, it's always a bit worrying to know that there are

19     two identical -- to -- two different versions of one and the same

20     document, but if the parties agree that in itself with eight or nine

21     names that such an order was issued, then I don't think that the Chamber

22     will insist on further exploring the -- the cause of the variation.

23             Then the English version was with the -- at this moment the

24     translation was the one with the eight names or the nine names?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Nine names.

Page 32482

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Nine names.  So we now need an English version to be

 2     uploaded with only the nine names -- the eight names.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mathematics.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well --

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who

 6     struggles with them in the morning, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I'm a bit surprised by myself that even

 8     under ten I have difficulties in doing the math correctly.  Above ten, I

 9     was used to that, but ...

10             Let's leave it to that.  Once the correct version has been

11     uploaded, if it has been done, it should be attached --

12             MR. TRALDI:  We'll inform the Chamber once that's been done.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             Then if that's all done, the witness can be escorted in the

15     courtroom.

16             And I use the opportunity to deal with a small matter.  It is a

17     remaining issue from the testimony of Cedo Sipovac.

18             On the 12th of November of last year, during the testimony of

19     Cedo Sipovac, D767, D768, and D769 were marked for identification.

20             On 3rd of February of this year, Defence submitted that it

21     considered the admission of these documents through another witness

22     instead of tendering them through Sipovac.

23             After the Prosecution had objected to the letter, the Defence

24     indicated it would advise the Chamber at a later date whether it would

25     argue the Prosecution's objections or whether it would seek to tender the

Page 32483

 1     document through another witness.

 2             On 24th of February the Defence was unable to advise the Chamber

 3     of its position on this.  The Chamber then expected the Defence to

 4     respond later that same week, and this can be found at transcript page

 5     32206.

 6             As at today's date, the Defence has not responded, and the

 7     Chamber wonders whether it could receive the position of the Defence

 8     relating to the documents D767, D768, and D769.

 9             Mr. Lukic, it's not a long story I take it.

10             MR. LUKIC:  No.  Now we are certain that the witness who issued

11     those documents will testify in our case.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And therefore you leave them as they are, and you'll

13     tender them through that witness.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Krcmar.  Apologies for continuing

18     to deal with administrative matters when you entered the courtroom, but

19     we'll now continue.

20             Mr. Traldi will continue his cross-examination, and I remind you

21     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

22     beginning of your testimony.

23             Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 32105 be brought to the screen.

25                           WITNESS:  GORAN KRCMAR [Resumed]

Page 32484

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 3        Q.   And as it is, good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

 5        Q.   Now, this is the rules and regulations for the work of the

 6     commission for the exchange of prisoners of war in the zone of

 7     responsibility of the East Bosnia Corps.  I just want to look at one

 8     point quickly.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 5 in the B/C/S and 3 in the

10     English.

11        Q.   At the top of the page in the B/C/S and towards the bottom in the

12     English we see point 13, and it says that:  "The exchange of prisoners of

13     war shall be conducted on the one-for-one basis (soldier for soldier,

14     woman for woman, elderly person for elderly person), or on the

15     all-for-all basis."

16             Is it right that the category of prisoners of war exchanged by

17     the corps commissions also included women and elderly persons, as well as

18     soldiers?

19        A.   This -- these are regulations of the IBK -- corps, not my corps.

20     I did not have such rules.  In principle, all exchanges should have been

21     all for all.  If no such agreement could be arrived then it would be one

22     for one, but according to our rules, we did not exchange a woman for a

23     woman.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Krcmar, the question still stands:  Were

25     there women and elderly people amongst your prisoners of war?

Page 32485

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area where I worked, that

 2     did not exist.  In the area of the 1st Krajina Corps, we did not have any

 3     imprisoned women.  There was just one case, a woman who was charged with

 4     spying, and she was exchanged for another prisoner of war.  These are the

 5     regulations of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, not of the 1st Krajina Corps,

 6     whose member I was.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, what I'm putting to you is that soldiers is a distinct

 9     category, and there are also other categories because the VRS corps

10     exchange commissions also exchanged people who were not soldiers, not

11     properly prisoners of war.  That's the truth, isn't it?

12        A.   It is true that prisoners of war were exchanged for other

13     prisoners of war.  People who were in military prisons, those run by the

14     corps, not civilian wards and again I'm speaking on behalf of the 1st

15     Krajina Corps.  I remind you that I worked in the 1st Krajina Corps, not

16     in the East Bosnia Corps, and I cannot testify on behalf of the latter.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, unless you know something about it.

18             Witness, again -- Mr. Traldi perhaps you should split up your

19     questions always:  Did this happen in the corps for which this witness

20     was responsible or does he have any knowledge about it happening in any

21     other corps.  Because you are constantly asking your questions in the

22     plural, corps, with an S and commissions, with an S, whereas, the witness

23     always says, I can't testify about that.

24             And let me be very clear, Witness, if you know something, you

25     should tell us, irrespective or whether it was from your commission or

Page 32486

 1     any -- or from a commission of any other corps of the VRS.  Let that be

 2     clear to you.

 3             Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, document 32105 receives number

 7     P7169.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have P4008.

10        Q.   Now, this is an order you also saw during direct examination,

11     from General Tolimir issued the 3rd of October, 1994.

12             As a first question, we see the Muslims are going to receive

13     prisoners from the Foca prison, Rudo prison, Visegrad prison, and parts

14     of prisoners from Batkovic and Butmir.  None of those prisons were in the

15     1st Krajina Corps' area of responsibility were they?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   Now, how is it that you were able to express a view on the

18     exchange policy expressed in this document when otherwise you have been

19     unable to express a view on exchanges conducted by the commissions of

20     other corps?

21        A.   Here it says in paragraph, the last one or the penultimate one,

22     that Dragan Bulajic will be in charge of the exchange.  That's why I

23     think that the exchange was organised by the civilian commission, i.e.,

24     Dragan Bulajic.  It doesn't seem that any of the corps was involved in

25     the negotiations about this particular exchange.

Page 32487

 1        Q.   Now, we see here in the third paragraph that General Tolimir is

 2     writing that the Main Staff has sent the text of the draft agreement on

 3     prisoner exchange and lists of prisoners to the area of responsibility

 4     of, as he puts it, "your corps."

 5             And we see at the top that it's addressed to the SRK, the IBK,

 6     the Herzegovina Corps and the Drina Corps.

 7             Below that, we read that:  "The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps will not

 8     receive the lists considering that they have a member in the state

 9     commission for exchange and that he is in possession of the full

10     documentation."

11             Do you know who the SRK's member in the state commission for

12     exchange was?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   And you testified yesterday at transcript page 32469 that

15     General Tolimir was one of the Main Staff officers who would issue

16     approval for exchanges.  You don't have any personal knowledge as to how

17     he was involved - or not - in negotiating this particular exchange, do

18     you?

19        A.   I don't know whether he participated in the negotiations for this

20     particular exchange.  However, the Main Staff issued instructions and

21     approvals for our exchanges when we turned to them.  Whether there was

22     somebody in the state commission or not, I really don't know.

23        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence - P6722 for the parties -

24     that in the ensuing exchange, the Bosnian Serbs freed 247 prisoners,

25     which included 19 Bosnian army soldiers, as well as numbers of women,

Page 32488

 1     children, elderly people, and people who were physically challenged.

 2             Were you aware of how this exchange or how the exchange that

 3     arose from this order was eventually conducted?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I think that he cannot answer without the document.

 5     Even I don't remember anymore what this document is about.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I think if I was asking him to express details about

 7     the exchange or comment on the document, I could see that.  All I was

 8     asking the witness was whether he was aware of those facts, yes or no,

 9     and I'm happy to call it up, but I think it's straightforward enough for

10     him to tell us.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take it step by step.

12             You asked the witness whether he has any recollection of what you

13     just mentioned, and if he has not, it may refresh his recollection if he

14     would have a look at the document.

15             MR. TRALDI:  It may or it may not be necessary to --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it in your hands.  The witness is not asked

17     to tell us anything about the document but it's just for reference and

18     for the Chamber and the Defence that you refer to this document.

19             Now, Witness, Mr. Traldi will put the question to you again.

20     Carefully listen to it and answer it.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   And I'll try to frame it very precisely, sir, the Chamber has

23     received evidence that there was an exchange conducted pursuant to the

24     same agreement we see reflected here and that in that exchange, the

25     Bosnian Serbs freed 247 prisoners, those prisoners included 19 Bosnian

Page 32489

 1     army soldiers, as well as numbers of women, children, elderly people, and

 2     people who were physically challenged.

 3             Were you aware of the facts that I've just recited.

 4        A.   I didn't know, because the 1st Krajina Corps where I worked was

 5     not involved in this exchange.  Had it been involved I would have

 6     probably known.  But, no, I didn't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know, just tell us you don't know.  You

 8     don't have to explain why you do not know something.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Now I'm going to turn to one matter that you discuss in your

12     statement.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 00872.

14        Q.   Now, this is a document from the VRS Main Staff dated the 8th of

15     June, 1993.  It refers to the exchange of prisoners of war and it refers

16     in the first paragraph to a massive exodus of Serbs and Croats across

17     HVO-controlled territories to the territory of Republika Srpska.

18             In the second paragraph, we see what appears to be an instruction

19     that this exodus should "be used to force the Croatian side to

20     unconditionally release all prisoners of war from the VRS, VRSK, and the

21     former JNA and all civilians who wish to leave the Croatian-controlled

22     parts of the former BH."

23             Now, you describe this incident as a rescue of Croats in your

24     statement.  Your commission and the 1st Krajina Corps received

25     instructions to use that exodus to force the Croatian side to facilitate

Page 32490

 1     an exchange of Serb; right?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   I'd put to you we see that policy clearly reflected in this

 4     document.  That's the truth, isn't it?

 5        A.   What I put to you is that I took part in the freeing of the

 6     Croatian population in Central Bosnia and their transfer across the

 7     border.  They were in conflict with the Muslim army and there were no

 8     conditions that were set forth.  I personally took part in that.

 9        Q.   Well, we see this is dated 8th of June.  The Chamber has received

10     evidence that a POW camp at Manjaca was set up and several hundred Croats

11     held there on the 8th of June -- on or about the 8th of June, 1993.  Is

12     it your evidence that you weren't aware of that?

13        A.   Could you please clarify that for me?  I'm afraid that I have

14     misunderstood.  I do not see the date on the document.  Could you please

15     help me with that at least?

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could we zoom in on the top left corner, please, in

17     the B/C/S.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see 1993, but I don't see the

19     month.  I don't see the date as such.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   I understand it's not terribly clear on the screen, but --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a euphemism, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I certainly hadn't intended it that way,

24     Mr. President.  I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, and let's see whether the date as it

Page 32491

 1     appears in the English version finds its -- a proper basis in the

 2     original.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Often the scanned version doesn't fully reflect what

 4     the interpreters are able to work with.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we should have a look at the version on

 6     the basis of which the 8th of June is ...

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps we can go to the next page in B/C/S.

 8     Sometimes a date appears there as well.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we look at the end, there will be a stamp.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Wherein which the 10th of June appears as the

11     date on which this document was processed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   So is it clear to you now, sir, that we're talking at least about

14     the month of June in the year 1993?

15        A.   Yes.  That can be seen here now.  The 10th of June, 1993.  That's

16     the date.

17        Q.   And what I was putting to you was that on or about the 8th of

18     June, 1993, the Chamber has received evidence that a POW camp at Manjaca

19     was set up to hold Croats from Vares.  Is it your evidence that you

20     weren't aware of that?

21        A.   The POW camp at Manjaca?  That is not the purpose for which it

22     was established.  If you allow me to explain, Your Honours?

23             Yes.  There was an unknown number of Croat people from

24     Central Bosnia that we took over and, quite simply, we transported them

25     through Republika Srpska towards Croatia and third countries.  Also, a

Page 32492

 1     large number of wounded persons.  I personally took them over.  They were

 2     in Banja Luka for 15 days, as far as I know, until conditions were

 3     created for their departure.  All of them were members of the HVO, the

 4     Croatian Defence Council, so this is certainly not a question of

 5     prisoners and POW camps.  All of this was done for humane reasons.

 6             At the time, my duty and obligation was towards the wounded of

 7     the HVO.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Witness, our problem is that the document says

 9     otherwise.  Are you aware of that problem?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what the document

11     says.  But I'm speaking from my own practice, what happened on the ground

12     and how this was actually being done, on the ground.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 2 in the English as well.  In,

15     sorry, in both languages.  I hadn't realised we'd moved back in the

16     B/C/S.

17        Q.   At point 7, we read that:  "Reports on all exchanges are to be

18     regularly submitted to the Main Staff.  Upon the completion of the

19     all-for-all exchange process, when we make sure that all our prisoners

20     have been exchanged, we shall release the Zarko Tole group and the

21     Croatian extremists from HVO units who surrendered."

22             So I have two questions for you about this language.

23             First, we see, again, a reference to a planned exchange of these

24     persons; right?

25        A.   Yes.  These are persons who were prisoners of war, like Zarko

Page 32493

 1     Tole, an officer of the Croatian Defence Council.

 2        Q.   And while most of these prisoners had been taken recently as a

 3     result of that surrender, Mr. Tole had, in fact, been in VRS custody for

 4     more than a year at this point and had been transferred through the VRS

 5     camp system; right?

 6        A.   Zarko Tole is a classical POW.  And he has nothing to do with

 7     this release of people from Central Bosnia.  Zarko Tole was in the

 8     official prisons of Republika Srpska, not in camps.

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... wondering

10     whether you are talking at cross-purposes.

11             What Mr. Traldi puts to you is that in paragraph 7 he reads that,

12     first, there will be an exchange.  And once that's totally completed,

13     that then Zarko Tole group and the Croatian extremists who had

14     surrendered are to be released.

15             So we have two matters, and I think the question of Mr. Traldi

16     was about the first issue, that is, the exchange of prisoners, first, to

17     be completed; and then the second issue is who should, after that, be

18     released.

19             Now, Mr. Traldi asked you whether this paragraph indeed confirms

20     that there was an exchange of prisoners planned, whereas your answer was

21     about the second part, that is, what should happen after that exchange of

22     prisoners has been completed.

23             So - Mr. Traldi, if I understood your question well about the

24     exchange of prisoners, could you first answer the question whether this,

25     again, confirms that an exchange of prisoners was planned and leave out,

Page 32494

 1     for the time being, the Zarko Tole group and what should happen after

 2     that.

 3             Could you answer that first question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's easier for me this way.  An

 5     exchange of POWs had just been planned that had been agreed on earlier.

 6     It was planned as stated in this document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... I think that

 8     answers the question by Mr. Traldi.  He asked whether the document

 9     expresses that an exchange of prisoners was planned, and you say, yes,

10     that's what happened.

11             Therefore the next question perhaps.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   The second question I asked was just Mr. Tole he had been in VRS

14     custody and I'm not contesting that he was a classical prisoner of war.

15     He been in VRS custody for more than a year.  At that point had been

16     transferred from Manjaca to Batkovic within the system of detention

17     facilities; right?

18        A.   In principle I did not in which prison Zarko Tole was.  I did

19     negotiate his exchange but once the exchange an agreed upon then I

20     address the security department and I ask for a POW to be made available

21     for exchanges.  All the POWs that I took over were taken over only for --

22     from military prisons, the three military prisons that were within the

23     area of responsibility of the Krajina Corps.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 32495

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document number 00872 receives

 2     number P7170.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P7170 is admitted.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one quick question.

 5             Was Mr. Tole detained in VRS custody for more than a year at that

 6     point in time?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32099.

10        Q.   And, sir, this will be the last document I show you.

11             As it comes up, during direct examination you talked about some

12     graves in the Sarajevo area.  Now, you became aware of the information

13     you've provided about Sarajevo after the war in the course of your work;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   You testified at transcript page 32412 that 471 Serbs have been

17     exhumed in Sarajevo.  The Sarajevo area, as I understand, makes up ten

18     municipalities.  Does the figure of 471 Serbs include exhumations

19     wherever in that ten municipality area they may have been conducted?

20        A.   No.  Just municipalities that were under the control of the

21     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   And you mentioned specifically the grave in the Lav cemetery.

23     Are you aware - yes or no - that forensic analysis has revealed some of

24     the bodies exhumed from the Lav cemetery over the years died of wounds

25     from shelling or sniping?

Page 32496

 1        A.   The post-mortem findings would show that if we had them here.

 2     I've already said it was a violent death.  We cannot talk about that

 3     without the post-mortem findings, and that is the field of forensic

 4     experts.

 5        Q.   So, sir, I wasn't asking you to offer a medical opinion.  I was

 6     simply asking whether you were aware - yes or no - that post-mortem

 7     findings had reached that conclusion.

 8             Could you answer that question, please.

 9        A.   I think I've answered.  And just one more thing in relation to

10     this grave, if the Chamber -- oh, okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, you have not answered that question.

12             Second, the question is not whether rightly or wrongly these

13     conclusions were made.  The question is whether in these autopsy reports

14     it is stated that people died from shelling wounds or sniping wounds.

15             Right or wrong, but whether you have read what is at the bottom

16     of such a report and whether it says or whether it says tuberculosis, or

17     whether it says sniping wound, that is the simple question that is put to

18     you, whether such findings, whether you read them when you looked at the

19     reports.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read these reports, and I

21     have the English version here of whatever.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  English version of what?

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document in the English

25     language.

Page 32497

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It has nothing to do with the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  As -- just -- you have not read the outcome of the

 3     autopsy reports, the post-mortems?  You have no idea about what they say

 4     as to the cause of death of some of the people that were exhumed in the

 5     Lav grave?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read most of it, but I have 4100

 7     post-mortem reports and it's hard for me to say anything now.  That's why

 8     I said we need to have the autopsy report here and now, because I cannot

 9     speak just off the cuff.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, do I understand you don't recall today whether you may have

12     at one point have known that some of the people exhumed from Lav over the

13     years may have been killed by shelling or sniping?

14        A.   I don't remember, because you've just said "maybe."

15             And I'm saying "maybe" too.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Witness, I asked you whether you had ever

17     seen such conclusions at the end of post-mortem autopsy reports.  Your

18     answer was:  I haven't read these reports.

19             Now, one minute later, your answer is:  I don't remember what the

20     content was of what I read.

21             The one is not the same as the other.  Would you agree with that

22     or do you have any explanation as why you said that you hadn't read them

23     and a minute later you say you don't remember because there were too many

24     you have read.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain because you confused

Page 32498

 1     me here with this English document that I didn't understand.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I told you that this document has nothing do with

 4     the question.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Rather, listen carefully then.  But we now do

 7     understand that you have read the reports and that you do not exclude for

 8     the possibility that at least some of the person exhumed in the grave

 9     were reported as having died from shelling or sniping consequences.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 9.

12        Q.   And, sir, this is a report of the United Nations commission of

13     experts from 1994.  Looking at page -- at paragraph 13, the commission is

14     reporting that:  "Since the beginning of the siege it is estimated that

15     nearly 10.000 persons have been killed or are missing in the city.  This

16     total includes over 1.500 children."

17             Now have you become aware in the course of your work of reports

18     that, in the first two years of the siege of Sarajevo, nearly 10.000

19     persons were killed or went missing?

20        A.   I heard quite a lot of information, but I see I know now that

21     this information was incorrect.  If you allow me, I have testified, and

22     in my report, I even stated that the minister of foreign affairs said at

23     the UN that 250.000 people were killed, Bosniak, in 1992.  And we see

24     today that that was not true.  This is questionable as well.

25             To this day, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we don't know.  Records of

Page 32499

 1     missing persons have not been set up.  And over here, we have some

 2     figures that, quite simply, cannot be considered reliable data.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say, "My report," what are you referring to

 4     exactly?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't quite understand.  Which

 6     report of mine do you mean.  Or it's a mistranslation.  Poor

 7     interpretation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "If you allow me, I have testified, and

 9     in my report, I even stated that the minister of foreign affairs said at

10     the UN that," et cetera.

11             Which report are you referring to.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not report.  Statement.  In my

13     statement.  That's it.  And I still haven't got my statement here.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you -- if you ask for it, then it will be

15     provided to you.  It's no problem.

16             So you were referring to your statement rather than to a report.

17             Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this is a long document.  I'd ask that

19     it be marked for identification.  We'll speak with the Defence about

20     making a selection.  And I won't have any further questions for this

21     witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, document 32099 receives number

24     P7171.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P7171 is marked for identification.

Page 32500

 1             Mr. Lukic.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Krcmar.

 4        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'd need P7160 on our screens.

 6        Q.   Yesterday my colleague Mr. Traldi put questions to you about

 7     this; namely, whether you knew that the chief of the Security Services

 8     Centre gave this statement on the 28th of April, 1992.

 9             Do you remember today where you were on the 28th of April, 1992?

10     In which formation?

11        A.   I'm afraid that I don't know.  At that point in time, military

12     units, civilian police units, there was that transfer, I'm not sure of

13     the date.  It was more than 20 years ago.

14        Q.   At the bottom of this page, there's a reference to SOS, members

15     of SOS.  However, the speech itself, is it in the present tense or is it

16     the future tense?  Is something that is already happened being referred

17     to, or something that is yet to happen?

18        A.   I don't know what paragraph you're talking about.

19        Q.   Please take a look at this.  The third paragraph in the text, in

20     bold.  "Soon special detachments," and so on and so forth.  Could you see

21     whether this is something that is yet to be organised or that it already

22     has been organised?

23        A.   On the basis of this, it means that they will -- yes, they will

24     deal with renegades, they shall deal with renegades from different

25     formations.

Page 32501

 1        Q.   I don't want you to be confused by this document, so we don't

 2     need it on our screens any longer.

 3             Yesterday, a video was shown to you and a man is being treated

 4     rather harshly, a man wearing civilian clothing in a garage.  On the

 5     basis of this video recording, could you conclude whether this was a

 6     Serb, a Croat or a Muslim, I mean, this man who was wearing civilian

 7     clothes?

 8        A.   The video could not show it -- I mean, one could not conclude on

 9     the basis of the video who was wearing civilian clothes.

10        Q.   We saw Nenad Stevandic's insignia on his pocket.  Do you remember

11     after all this time whether these markings were repeated after a while

12     and how often they would be valid?

13        A.   They would be valid for two or three days, depending on the

14     assessment of the command, how long it should be worn.  Sometimes it

15     would be one day; sometimes it would be five days.  I don't know.  I

16     cannot remember.  I mean, I don't want to say I don't know.  I can't

17     remember.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P3711, please.

20        Q.   In relation to this document, on page 32428 of our transcript,

21     lines 15 through 19, you say that the judges who had come from Zenica,

22     the prosecutor, who had come from Zenica were telling you about the unit

23     of Burce, or from Burce.  It's clear to you, but for the record, you need

24     to tell us where -- where in Bosnia and Herzegovina Zenica is, and what

25     the ethnicity of this judge and this prosecutor is?

Page 32502

 1        A.   Zenica is in the Federation.  The judge who was there from Zenica

 2     was Mr. Hilmo Ahmetovic.  The prosecutor was Redzo Delic.  The police was

 3     the police from Zenica.  At that moment, I acted as host or monitor.  I

 4     followed their work, and it is only natural that we discussed the case,

 5     that is to say, this crime.  And they presented what they knew, and I

 6     said yesterday what it was that I heard from them.  That was sometime in

 7     1998.  1998, I think it's 1998.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Again --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I have difficulties in finding it on the

10     page reference you gave, that is 32428.

11             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... 458.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  458.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Lines 15 to 19.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please answer my question again.  You are clear, but for the

17     record, what were the ethnicities of the judges, the prosecutor, and the

18     police who arrived from Zenica who told you about the Burce units?

19        A.   They were all Muslims.

20        Q.   Did the judge or the prosecutor from Zenica tell you how they had

21     obtained that information?

22        A.   No, they didn't tell me anything about that.  They only told me

23     that they had information about that and that it was the Burce group who

24     this had done it.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I have probably ten more minutes and then I'll be

Page 32503

 1     done.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, I take it that if this information

 3     was given to the witness, it must be recorded somewhere which would

 4     certainly strengthen very much the testimony of the witness.  It would

 5     corroborate -- so if there's any documentation available, then, of

 6     course, the Chamber would very much appreciate if it would be there, so

 7     that we can -- because it's -- on the basis of the testimony of yesterday

 8     that there are at least on an exhumation to tell someone immediately

 9     after that who was the perpetrator, of course, is not what usually

10     happens but if there is documentation confirming that, then we'd

11     certainly like to see that.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We -- we tried to find yesterday, Your Honours, and

13     we did find -- we did find some mentioning of Chetniks from Burce doing

14     some crimes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But you mean not in the exhumation reports.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think it should and it would be in the

17     exhumation.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether there is any interview with

19     witnesses who may have been at the exhumation site.  I don't know how it

20     was reported and that's exactly what I'm saying, that if there's any

21     report of that exhumation which would give support to the -- to the

22     testimony of the witness, which at least there are still a few questions

23     to be raised on the basis of what the witness could tell us, then we

24     would appreciate to see that.

25             MR. LUKIC:  We'll probably have to look into the records of

Page 32504

 1     Zenica.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  For example.  Or ask the assistance of the

 3     Prosecution.  Or seek a request from the authorities so that we would not

 4     just have the testimony but it would be corroborated by documentary

 5     evidence.  Or any follow-up evidence.

 6             We'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes,

 7     Mr. Krcmar.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, there was a request that you address the

13     matter of the shifting of the burden of proof.  Could you give us an

14     indication as to how much time would you need for that, approximately.

15             MR. TIEGER:  One minute, on my part, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One minute, yes.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, we will come to an end really soon.

21             Let me ask you something about the topic that Judge Orie raised.

22     Did you perhaps note the information that you had received from the judge

23     and the prosecutor from Zenica?

24        A.   No.  We co-operated on a daily basis on exhumations.  We

25     discussed many issues, including that one.

Page 32505

 1        Q.   Were you familiar with the results of the investigation that was

 2     carried out by the Zenica District Court?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Would the judges inform you about the results of any

 5     investigations?

 6        A.   No.  We received feedback only within the area of exhumations.

 7     When it came to investigations, that was not part of our job, and we did

 8     not receive information about those.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7165.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I just want to fully understand your previous

11     answer.

12             Are you saying that your knowledge was limited to what you

13     exchanged during the exhumations; and whether there was an investigation

14     as a follow-up, you wouldn't know anything about that.  Is that how I

15     have to understand your testimony?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   You were asked about this document.  My attention was drawn by

20     the fact that the document was signed by Colonel Gojko Vujnovic, the desk

21     officer for co-operation with UNPROFOR and civilian affairs.

22             My question is this:  Did UNPROFOR or any other international

23     organisation such as the Red Cross take part in the exchanges at all?

24        A.   Yes, they did, especially the International Red Cross.  UNPROFOR

25     was also in presence or -- at all those exchanges or the transfer of

Page 32506

 1     people from one side to the other because people did not leave prisons to

 2     go directly from a prison to be exchanged.  They would come from their

 3     homes to cross over to the other territory and then proceed to third

 4     countries.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7170.

 6        Q.   We've already seen this document?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that.

 8             You are aware that you, again, yourself used the word "exchange"?

 9             "... did not leave prisons to go directly from a prison to be

10     exchanged."

11             So you are talking about exchanges, as was the question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is just a terminology issue.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'll go back to that.

16             You said that people did not go directly from prisons to be

17     exchanged when you spoke about exchanges, i.e., about transfers.  Did you

18     have in mind people who were in prison or those who were at home?

19        A.   Those who were at home.  So we cannot use the term "exchange."

20     It was a simple transfer from one territory to another.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             What we have before us is P7170, and we can see that this is a

23     document which was issued by the Main Staff.  It was received on the

24     10th of June, 1993.  The typed name is that of

25     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.  It says that the --

Page 32507

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic please read more slowly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to read more slowly.

 3     Could you resume where the transcript says:

 4             "It says that ..."

 5             And then start your quote.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] It says:  "The exodus to the Croats to the

 8     territory of Republika Srpska and the surrender of HVO units to VRS units

 9     should be used to force the Croatian side to unconditionally release all

10     prisoners of war from the VRS, VRSK, and the former JNA and all civilians

11     to wish to leave the Croatian-controlled parts of the former Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina."

13             First of all, do you know whether in 1993 there was still members

14     of the JNA in Croatian prisons.

15        A.   The commission of Yugoslavia was looking for prisoners of war

16     from the JNA from Croatia.  The lot of some of those people is still not

17     nope.  We only knew or, rather, it was well-known that members of the JNA

18     were being held in Croatian prisons.

19        Q.   As we have seen, the document was issued on the 8th of June or

20     around that date.

21             And now look -- let's look at P3683.

22             I would like to jog your memory by saying that the Trial Chamber

23     has heard evidence that Croats left Travnik on the 6th of June, 1993.

24     Here, we see a document that was issued on the 7th of June, 1993.  This

25     document was also signed by Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.

Page 32508

 1             Under 1, the title of the document is:  Treatment of HVO members

 2     and of the Croatian civilian population.  It was sent to the command of

 3     the 1st Krajina Corps.  "With regard the situation that has been created

 4     in the sector of Travnik, act in accordance with my verbal order which

 5     has to do with the following ..."

 6             Under 1, it says:  "The civilian population and persons not fit

 7     for combat should be transferred to the sector of Novska in Croatian

 8     territory.

 9             "An adequate number of motor vehicles should be engaged, and this

10     is to be done through the International Committee of the Red Cross."

11             Did you comply with this order, i.e., with item 1?

12        A.   Precisely.  We did exactly that.

13        Q.   Under 2, it says:  "For intelligence purposes question persons

14     fit for military service and HVO units' members (of the

15     Frankopan Brigade) and then until further notice accommodate them at

16     Manjaca."

17             Do you know if that -- this was complied with and who did it?

18        A.   It was within the purview of the military intelligence and

19     security service.

20        Q.   When it comes to the civilians who were transferred to the

21     territory of Croatia, had there been any requests made in respect of

22     them?

23        A.   No, there were no conditions set.  They were transferred from the

24     territory of Republika Srpska.  They were accompanied by the

25     International Committee of the Red Cross, and they were handed over to

Page 32509

 1     the Croatian side.

 2        Q.   Do you remember how many days were needed to do that?  Did they

 3     spend a night anywhere, or did they continue travelling to Croatia?  Do

 4     you know that?

 5        A.   I know that provisions were secured for those people.  I went

 6     there to take over prisoners of war.  My other colleagues accompanied

 7     those people.  I believe that the journey lasted a couple of days, but

 8     I'm not sure.  Prisoners of war or, rather, the wounded spent over ten

 9     days in the hospital in Banja Luka and then I handed them over to the

10     Croatian side without any conditions having been set.  They just crossed

11     over to the Croatian side.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One additional question.

13             It also says that people should be accommodated in Manjaca.  Were

14     they free to leave Manjaca as they wished?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that the HVO unit

16     would be accommodated at Manjaca and that interviews would be conducted

17     with them.  Later, they were all unconditionally set free.  Not for a

18     single moment they were subject of any negotiations or conversations

19     regarding an exchange.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not mind if you want to read it as you wish to

21     read it.  But that's not what the document says.  The document says:

22     "... persons fit for military service and HVO units' members ..."

23             The document is also about the civilian population.  So if I ask

24     you whether people were free to leave Manjaca, yes or no, first of all,

25     what you are telling me is not an answer to my question.  Second, it

Page 32510

 1     misreads the document.  If you want to do that, fine.  But you should be

 2     aware that it does remain unnoticed.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you know of any civilians which were detained at Manjaca?

 6        A.   No, there were no civilians, as far as I know.  They were

 7     accompanied in a different way, and they went in the direction of

 8     Croatia.

 9        Q.   There's a reference to two categories here under item 2:  Those

10     who were fit for service; and members of the Frankopan Brigade of the

11     HVO.

12             Do you know when an agreement was reached for all the militarily

13     able-bodied and members of the Frankopan Brigade of the HVO to be

14     accommodated at Manjaca?

15        A.   I know nothing about that agreement.

16        Q.   Under 6 - we need the following page in English, please - it

17     says:  "Within the limits of your capabilities, provide care for the

18     civilian population until they are evacuated to the territory of Croatia.

19     Conduct yourselves correctly toward the HVO members and able-bodied

20     people until their status has been resolved."

21             Do you know how the status of those people who were accommodated

22     at Manjaca was resolved?

23        A.   Yes, I know.  They went to Croatia.  There were no negotiations

24     about any exchange, there were no conditions set, but they left after the

25     civilians.  And they did not have the status of prisoners of war.

Page 32511

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, it's not clear to me, you said:

 2     "Those who were accommodated in Manjaca, they left after the

 3     civilians ..."

 4             But I do understand that at least part of those accommodated in

 5     Manjaca were civilians?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says in the document,

 7     "able-bodied men."

 8             Those were members of the HVO, as far as I know.  I don't know

 9     that they were civilians.  They were HVO members.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what the document says.  I'm quite happy

11     that you interpret it in that way.  But both in the paragraph that we

12     looked at and also in paragraph 4 of this document, it clearly

13     distinguishes between able-bodied persons and members of HVO units.

14             Therefore, I assume if you just call them -- if the document is

15     about civilian population, if you say the able-bodied persons should be

16     sent to Manjaca together with the HVO member units, first, that these are

17     two different categories; and, second, if someone is a soldier, I would

18     not call him an able-bodied person, I would call him a soldier.

19             I understand, but please correct me when my understanding is

20     wrong, an able-bodied person, someone who is physically fit to be a

21     soldier but not a soldier yet.

22             Have you any comment on this understanding of this terminology?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Able-bodied men can be

24     civilians, and all civilians left the territory of Republika Srpska and

25     went to Croatia within the next two days.  Members of the HVO were kept

Page 32512

 1     behind them, but they left thereafter.

 2             I'm not aware of the fact that civilians were ever sent to

 3     Manjaca.  I and all of my colleagues were directly involved in that

 4     operation with a view to helping those people.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] We have paragraph 8 - we need the next page in

 8     both versions - we see number 8.  It says that:  "... the ill and wounded

 9     should be taken care of in our medical institutions."

10             You've already testified about that, haven't you, that you took

11     part in that?

12        A.   Yes.  I was precisely in charge of that, that is to say of the

13     wounded.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are going to look at P7171 again.

15        Q.   In relation to this - the document is in English - you were asked

16     about the Lav graveyard, whether you knew how people were wounded, and

17     you said, I cannot manage without autopsy reports.

18             My question:  Was it easier for you to get to the mortal remains

19     of these 36 Serbs and three Muslims that were buried underneath the

20     corpses of newborn babies and other corpses?  How did you get to that?

21        A.   Quite simply, we could not reach any kind of agreement with the

22     federal commission.  That is why the intervention of the high

23     representative was required and we had to provide lots and lots of

24     relevant evidence to persuade the Office of the High Representative and

25     the IPTF that indeed there was a grave there.

Page 32513

 1        Q.   The federal authorities, did they deny the existence of a grave

 2     there?

 3        A.   Yes, precisely.  And they even carried out objections with some

 4     of the family members who had family members buried there and their

 5     newborn children.  They were saying that we were violating their graves

 6     and underneath, indeed, there was this other grave.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Krcmar.  That is all we had for you.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Briefly, Mr. President.

12             Could we have, first, P7095.

13                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

14        Q.   Now, we see here a document from the HVO, from the military

15     intelligence service, dated the 19th of June, 1993.  In the second

16     paragraph, we read that:  "At the negotiations in Celebic,

17     representatives of the Serb side offers 1789 civilians from the Lasva

18     area for exchange, 500 of them children, 471 men eligible for military

19     service, which the Serbs deem to be HVO soldiers and 29 wounded HVO

20     members who are located in hospital in Banja Luka.  In return, they are

21     seeking that all civilians of Serb ethnicity from Rascani (outside

22     Tomislavgrad) and Livno municipality, and others ... be released."

23             MR. TRALDI:  Now if we could have P7096.

24        Q.   We see that:  "In accordance with the talks held in Geneva on the

25     24th of June, 1993, between the presidents of the RH and the Republic of

Page 32514

 1     Serbia, as well as the highest representatives of the Croatian and

 2     Serbian people in BiH, Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Radovan Karadzic,

 3     particularly with regard to the agreement on exchange of detainees and

 4     release of civilians is hereby ordered to civilian military and police

 5     authorities of Livno and Tomislavgrad to ensure an unobstructed departure

 6     of all members of Serbian people from the areas of these municipalities

 7     (this pertains to those who wish to do so) to the territory under Serb

 8     control."

 9             Now, you testified a moment ago that the Serb -- or, rather, the

10     Croat civilians transferred out of Central Bosnia in June 1993 were not

11     exchanged.  Were you unaware of the large-scale exchange reflected in

12     these documents?

13        A.   Again, there is a mistake in terms of terminology here.  As we

14     can see from this document from Geneva, this meant unhindered crossing

15     over of the Serb population and then there was this other document that

16     we saw, instructions from General Mladic to help the civilian population

17     cross over.  There was no exchange.  It's just a question of terminology.

18     Whether it is crossing over, or whether it is an exchange.  So it's just

19     the wrong terminology that is being used here.

20        Q.   So if the two sides agree, we'll let your civilians cross over

21     but only if you only let our civilians cross over, in your view, that's

22     not an exchange; is that right?

23        A.   These are no civilians of ours.  This means rescuing the Croatian

24     people from Central Bosnia, from the Lasva river valley.  They were in a

25     conflict with the Muslims.  We were saving these people.  Please do not

Page 32515

 1     reduce this humanitarian endeavour to a mere exchange.  This was a major

 2     humanitarian effort, a humane thing to do, and I personally took part in

 3     it.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 08203.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, could I put one very

 6     short, simple question, Witness.

 7             We talked a lot about Manjaca and HVO members' unit and

 8     able-bodied men to be accommodated there.  Were you there?  Have you

 9     visited Manjaca in that specific time-frame?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I had the wounded.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And we have now 65 ter 08203.

13        Q.   I'm asking this in regard to your evidence that international

14     organisations participated in exchanges.

15             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the last paragraph on page 2 --

16        Q.   We read:  "Both sides are 'releasing' civilians to the other

17     side, as well as exchanging groups of civilians, very often without

18     making available any information to UNHCR, ICRC or UNPROFOR.  This is

19     thinly disguised ethnic cleansing but mostly very difficult to detect."

20             Now we see -- if we go back to the first page, that this is a

21     document coming from UNPROFOR.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think that the rest of the

23     paragraph has to be read.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to read the full paragraph.

25             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 32516

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Traldi will do so.

 2     He is following your suggestion.

 3             Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have page 2 back on the screen.

 5             The final paragraph reads:  "Both sides are releasing civilians

 6     to the other side, as well as exchanging groups of civilian, very often

 7     without making available any information to UNHCR, ICRC or UNPROFOR.

 8     This is thinly disguised ethnic cleansing but mostly very difficult to

 9     detect.  At the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge in Sarajevo, groups of

10     civilians are regularly exchanged between the sides, but within the

11     agreed times of freedom of movement, when it is not possible to separate

12     civilians being exchanged from those with permission to visit the city or

13     Grbavica."

14             Now my question, in regard to the evidence that you gave on

15     re-direct was simply:  Were you aware that UNPROFOR had expressed

16     concerns that the exchange of civilians was thinly disguised ethnic

17     cleansing?

18        A.   The text that you read out speaks of crossing over from one side

19     to the other.  From the text, we do not see that people are coming from

20     prisons and that exchange is being carried out.  I did not know about

21     this, what UNPROFOR said, but I want to say that this has to do with --

22     with crossing over as you read it out, not exchanges.  Again I repeat,

23     it's a question of terminology.  What is crossing over?  What is a

24     release?  What is an exchange?

25        Q.   Sir, it uses the word "exchanges" at least twice, I think three

Page 32517

 1     times in the paragraph I read to you.  I'd put to you you're reluctant to

 2     use the term itself because you are aware of precisely this sort of

 3     allegation that the exchange of civilians was part of the machinery of

 4     ethnic cleansing.  That's the truth, isn't it?

 5        A.   Again, you are putting this wrongly and you are putting it into

 6     the context of people who did highly honourable work, released people who

 7     were POWs and you are projecting this as some kind of ethnic cleansing

 8     machinery.  I didn't know what was happening in Sarajevo.  I lived in

 9     Banja Luka.  I worked in the zone of the 1st Krajina Corps.  However,

10     what you are doing is not right and not fair.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I suppose we should have it translated

12     so I'd ask that be marked for identification.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 08203 receives number P7172.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And I have no further questions for this witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, exceptionally, I would just ask this

19     witness to take off his headphones since he does not speak any --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the witness understand the English language?

21     I --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  No.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Since I would kindly ask Your Honour, or

Page 32518

 1     Your Honours, to ask this witness if he knows whether the last two

 2     documents shown to him, actually two -- last P documents have anything to

 3     do with the operation of a transporting Croat civilians from mid-Bosnia

 4     to Croatia since it is obvious that it just has to be established whether

 5     since 6th of June until 19th of June anybody from this group was still in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina for these 13 days.

 7             Our claim is that these two documents have nothing to do with the

 8     operation this witness was involved in.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I immediately noticed when I looked at

10     this document because we are seriously looking at any document that this

11     is a document dated 20 July 1994 and I therefore, in this context, did

12     not understand Mr. Traldi to specifically address what happened in early

13     June 1993 but that he put a rather broader question to the witness and

14     so -- so, therefore, there should be no confusion that a document, of

15     course, in July 1994 is -- is not expressing or not -- not specifically

16     addressing a matter which happened in June 1993 would be only very

17     indirectly related to events going on and not specifically.  That's, at

18     least, how I looked at it, but I'm looking at my colleagues whether they

19     have any different views, but you see --

20             MR. LUKIC:  P7095 is from 9th June and 7096 is from 25th June.

21     Does that, according to the Prosecution, has the same meaning where they

22     presented those documents or they want to claim that those two documents

23     actually show what happened in regard of the action Mr. Krcmar took

24     place.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, a question for you.

Page 32519

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I had intended to suggest that P7095 and 7096

 2     related to the exchanges.  I hadn't intended to suggest that the

 3     July 1994 document.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Then I would kindly ask Your Honours to ask this

 5     witness whether before 19 June, the transport of both civilians and

 6     military men was finished and according to our witness, Kolenda Davor,

 7     everything was finished long time ago, long before this date.  According

 8     to him, they were transported on the 12th and 13th of June, military men

 9     to -- and before that, all the civilians has -- have already left

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11             So if the Prosecution wants to claim this had any to do with the

12     group Mr. Krcmar took place in transporting, then we think that it's

13     misleading of evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let's try to keep it also

15     procedurally on the right track.  Of course, you said exceptionally,

16     Mr. Lukic, because it's not common that after the -- after the further

17     cross-examination by the Prosecution that the Defence has an other

18     opportunity to examine the witness.

19             But, Mr. Traldi, it may create clarity and, therefore, if you

20     would follow the suggestion raised by Mr. Lukic then, of course, it would

21     perhaps assist the Chamber in getting the clarity on what is a matter

22     still in dispute.

23             Are you willing to follow that suggestion?

24             MR. TRALDI:  I am, and I'm also happy to have anyone else frame

25     the question if they would prefer.

Page 32520

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think it's procedurally procedure where

 2     Mr. Lukic invited you to establish further clarity that you do so.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  It may take -- it may take me two or three questions

 4     since I don't have an exact sense of what he is looking for.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think Mr. Lukic wants this to be explored

 6     whether it was completed, yes or no.

 7                      Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, we're returning to the topic of Croats transported out of

10     Central Bosnia in June of 1993.

11             Now, first, is it your evidence that before the 12th and 13th of

12     June, all the civilians who were being transported out of that area had

13     already been transported out of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   I cannot speak about dates here.  I don't remember the dates, but

15     I did take part in that.

16        Q.   Here, I think I'm unsure -- given the witness's inability to

17     speak about dates, if there's any further clarification that Mr. Lukic

18     would seek.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Then I would have to ask the witness to take off his

20     earphones.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you again take off your earphones.

22             Mr. Lukic, any further suggestions for questions.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I would -- what I would ask or I would ask you,

24     Your Honour, to ask this witness, whether the transportation of civilians

25     took more than seven days, and if the incarcerations, incarceration of

Page 32521

 1     HVO members and able-bodied men took more than 13 days.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll ask him --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  If he cannot talk about the dates.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps with some more open questions, I'll ask him

 5     whether he has any recollection of that.

 6             Could you please put on your earphones again.

 7             Witness, one more follow-up question on the civilians leaving in

 8     June 1993 and those who were in -- accommodated in Manjaca finally

 9     leaving.

10             Even not knowing the dates, do you have any recollection as for

11     how long they were in Manjaca before they left the Serb-controlled

12     territory?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not going to be precise, but it

14     was very soon after the civilians went out.  It was seven to ten days

15     maximum.  I did not take part in the transportation of these people.

16     Other colleagues took these people over, but they were there very

17     briefly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you said:  "Very soon after the civilians went

19     out."  What do you mean exactly by that, "the civilians went out"?  Do

20     you have a date for that, or ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the month of July 1993.

22     But, really, I cannot remember the date.  From Vlasic, we took them over

23     and I know that there was a bus convoy that was organised, including,

24     ambulances, and there were groups and we all had our different duties.

25     Some went to Srbac-Davor where people crossed over to Croatia, then

Page 32522

 1     others as far as I know went somewhere towards Livno.

 2             I repeat and it's not first time I am saying this:  I just took

 3     care of the wounded and sick people and they stayed in Banja Luka up to

 4     15 days and then I drove them away as well that is the only thing can I

 5     say.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you are referring to the month of July 1993.

 7     We earlier looked at documents which were 8th of June, 10th of June,

 8     perhaps when they were processed.  You are now talking about the month of

 9     July.  Does that mean that it materialised only after some 20 days, or

10     was it a mistake when you referred to July 1993?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I said June.  Well, maybe

12     it was a permutation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I must admit that I'm not familiar with the word

14     "permutation."  If someone could help me that's ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again explain you said, "Well, maybe it

17     was a" -- and could you then explain what you wanted to say?  That is,

18     about the confusion, June, July.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was summertime.  I'm

20     afraid, really, as far as these dates are concerned that I may make a

21     mistake so if possible could be please not insist on these dates because

22     I'm going make a mistake unintentionally and unconsciously.  Throughout

23     the war, I worked on exchanges every day and it is very hard for me to be

24     precise with dates after all these years, even in terms of months but I

25     know for sure that I took part in that.

Page 32523

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I didn't insist on anything.  You

 2     spontaneously mentioned July 1993 and that's why I asked the question.

 3     But you say I'm not certain about whether it was June or July.

 4             Mr. Lukic, I've tried to explore the matter.  We leave it to

 5     that.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We have documents, Your Honour.  It's clear.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  Of course, if the memory of witnesses

 8     is insufficiently to fully establish matters, then, of course,

 9     documentary evidence - as I said before - may assist us.

10             No further questions?

11             Mr. Krcmar, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you

12     very much for coming to The Hague, which is still a long way, and for

13     having answered the many questions that were put to, both by the parties

14     and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We could start with the next witness.  We'd also

19     could first take a break and the third option is that we give Mr. Tieger

20     an opportunity to make a submission of his one-minute submission on the

21     matter he announced.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  In reviewing the transcript of Thursday's session we

25     noticed an issue that might best be clarified at this time.  Now the

Page 32524

 1     context was Mr. Lukic's reference to a shifting of the burden and the

 2     Trial Chamber's observations about the Defence taking time to correct

 3     matters that had not been presented as evidence to the Chamber.  And as

 4     you'll recall at transcript page 32369, the Chamber addressed Mr. Lukic's

 5     remarks and the Court quite correctly and quite clearly stated that the

 6     Defence had no burden and that there had been no shift of the

 7     Prosecution's burden to the Defence.

 8             Then the following appears on the transcript:  "The burden that

 9     the Defence bears is to rebut the Prosecution's case and that's all."

10             So while the Chamber's position that the Defence has no burden

11     was quite clear, out of an abundance of caution, we thought that we

12     should bring this last passage to the Court's attention now for

13     clarification, to ensure that the record reflects that it is the

14     Prosecution's burden at all times to prove its cases beyond a reasonable

15     doubt, and the Defence has no burden of proof at any time during the

16     trial.

17             Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             We take a break, and we'll resume ten minutes past midday.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I assumed that the Defence is ready to call its next

23     witness, and the next witness will be examined by.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Sasa Lukic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sasa Lukic.  We're wondering when the first

Page 32525

 1     moment would be there.

 2             Welcome, Mr. Lukic, for the first time to examine the witness.

 3             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And your next witness would be Milivoje Simic.

 5             MR. S. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Simic, I presume.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Simic, before --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

13     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

14     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Simic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Simic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

20     You find Mr. Lukic to your left, Mr. Sasa Lukic.  And Mr. Lukic is a

21     member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23                           WITNESS:  MILIVOJE SIMIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Examination by Mr. S. Lukic:

Page 32526

 1             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   Would you please tell us your name for the record.

 5        A.   My name is Milivoje Simic.

 6        Q.   Did you provide a statement to the Ratko Mladic Defence team?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8             MR. S. LUKIC:  Can we have 65 ter 1D01685.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you see the first page of this statement?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

12        A.   Yes, I do, this is my signature.

13             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we also see the last page of

14     the statement in B/C/S, i.e., in Serbian.

15        Q.   Do you recognise this signature?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Is this your signature?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Has everything been accurately recorded in your statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is everything truthful and accurate?

22        A.   Whatever I have stated is truthful and accurate.

23        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

24     answers be the same?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 32527

 1             MR. S. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would like to tender the witness

 2     statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 1D01685 receives number D921.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D921 is admitted, absent any objections.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. S. LUKIC:  With your permission, I would like to read the

 8     statement summary.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milivoje Simic spent his

11     entire career at the Doboj garrison.  He remained there even after the

12     conflict broke out in the territory of BiH.  As a JNA officer, on the eve

13     of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was engaged in Republic of Croatia,

14     in Banja, from 15 September 1991 to 15 May 1992, i.e., up to the moment

15     when the JNA surrendered its positions to UNPROFOR members.

16             After leaving the territory of the Republic of Croatia,

17     Witness Milivoje Simic withdrew to Doboj in Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     together with his JNA unit.  When the war started, he was the commander

19     of the Doboj garrison.  He witnessed artillery attacks on the town of

20     Doboj even before the decision was made to establish the Army of

21     Republika Srpska.  He also witnessed attacks by Croatian forces on the

22     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23             Due to the fact that the joint Croatian and Muslim forces had

24     planned to cut off the western part of Republika Srpska from its eastern

25     part through Doboj, the witness spoke to General Talic and informed him

Page 32528

 1     about those intentions on the part of Muslim and Croatian militaries.

 2     First he spoke to General Talic, and then he spoke about the same matter

 3     to General Mladic and President Karadzic.  After that, a decision was

 4     made to embark on the breakthrough of the corridor.

 5             Witness Milivoje Simic was present when General Mladic visited

 6     Doboj.  That happened on three or four occasions.  The last time when

 7     General Mladic was in Doboj, there was a meeting which was attended by

 8     the witness, as well as Milan Martic, Momir Talic, and

 9     General Ratko Mladic.  On that occasion, General Mladic referred to the

10     killings of Muslims from Srebrenica.  He said that that should not have

11     happened and also that somebody had done it unbeknownst to him and

12     without his approval.

13             Your Honour, with your permission, I would like to ask the

14     witness a few questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you.

17             Could we have paragraph 28 on English version.  It's page 5 in

18     e-court.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, in your statement, in paragraph 28,

20     you stated that General Mladic came to Doboj on three or four occasions.

21     Did you see him every time or did you attend those meetings every time?

22        A.   When the offensive, i.e., Operation Corridor started,

23     General Mladic visited the corps command, i.e., General Talic, on three

24     or four occasions.  I met with him on three occasions.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What did the general have to tell you during those

Page 32529

 1     meetings?

 2        A.   Every time General Mladic came to Doboj, we had meetings, and

 3     those meetings were really very brief.  Every time he alerted us to the

 4     fact that we should comply with the law during war operations, that we

 5     should apply the provisions of the rules of war.  He spoke to us about

 6     our treatment of prisoners of war, selective targeting in order to

 7     minimise the number of civilian casualties.  He also told us that we

 8     should be particularly mindful of women and children, and, finely, that

 9     we should try and preserve the already existing settlements.  The ongoing

10     theme was compliance with the Geneva Conventions, rights of civilians and

11     prisoners of war.

12        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  That will be all for the time being.

13             MR. S. LUKIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... for the time

14     being.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Lukic.

16             One very short question, Witness, this meeting where you say in

17     paragraph 28 that General Mladic was talking about the events following

18     the fall of Srebrenica, do you know on what date General Mladic spoke

19     those words?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the date.  It was

21     at the beginning of August 1995.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that, but I really

24     wouldn't be able to give you the exact date.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

Page 32530

 1             Mr. Simic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You find

 2     Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Sir, how long have you known General Mladic?

 9        A.   I first met him on 26th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka.  He was the

10     commander of the Main Staff.

11        Q.   Now, you begin your statement by describing your service in Doboj

12     and then in Croatia.  You were a JNA officer when you served in Croatia;

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you continued to hold a post in what became the VJ during

16     your service in the VRS up until 1994; right?

17        A.   Yes, as a commander.

18        Q.   And you were paid by the VJ; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Eventually through the 30th Personnel Centre?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you retired in 1994; right?

23        A.   In 1994 or, rather, in 1995.  In 1995, I was already retired.

24        Q.   Sir, I want to ask now some questions about Operational Group

25     Doboj.

Page 32531

 1             Now, first, during your time as commander of Operational Group

 2     Doboj, who was your immediate superior?

 3        A.   My immediate superior was the commander of the 1st Corps,

 4     General Talic.

 5        Q.   And during the time that you served in Doboj, the Chamber's

 6     received evidence that non-Serbs from Prijedor and Bosanski Novi were

 7     transported out of Serb territory via Doboj.  As OG Doboj commander, you

 8     were aware of these large groups of people being transported through your

 9     area of responsibility; right?

10        A.   I personally didn't know that, but I suppose that General Talic

11     did.  Because the area of responsibility was under the corps command.  I

12     was a unit and an officer subordinated to him.

13        Q.   And your understanding would be that as part of his job, that's

14     information he would have to know; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that one of those

17     transports from Bosanski Novi had several thousand people on it, several

18     hundred of whom were taken off the train in Doboj and sent back.

19     Wouldn't you also have had to be aware of that since it was in your area

20     of responsibility?  And in case it refreshes your recollection, that was

21     in June of 1992.

22        A.   June 1992.  I don't know what the date was exactly.

23     Operation Corridor started.  Everything that has to do with these

24     transports, I was not informed about that.  This was done by the services

25     of the 1st Krajina Corps or, rather, the Doboj centre of security

Page 32532

 1     services.  I personally did not take part.  I was not informed.  Quite

 2     simply, that's the way it was.

 3        Q.   Well, let's turn to Operation Corridor briefly.

 4             Now, during the summer of 1992 and particularly during

 5     Operation Corridor, there was 1st Krajina Corps forward command post in

 6     your area of responsibility; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   That command post was first in Prnjavor and second in a place

 9     called Djuge [sic] Njive; right?

10        A.   Duge Njive is where I was stationed, not Prnjavor.  Never

11     Prnjavor.  Duge Njive, that's above Modrica.

12        Q.   I understand and let me try to clarify the question.  I wasn't

13     asking where you were stationed, I was asking where the 1st Krajina

14     Corps' forward command post was and there was such a forward command post

15     in your area of responsibility; right?

16        A.   At Duge Njive, yes.

17        Q.   And General Talic and General Kelecevic were also often present

18     there; right?

19        A.   Kovacevic?  I don't know about that person.  Kovacevic?  What was

20     his position?  I don't know of him.

21        Q.   Perhaps my speed was off, sir --

22        A.   What time was that?

23        Q.   Perhaps my speed was off.  If you give me a moment, I'll re-ask

24     the question slowly.

25             General Talic and General Bosko Kelecevic were often present at

Page 32533

 1     that forward command post during the summer of 1992; right?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, you would meet them regularly because they were present in

 4     your area of responsibility?

 5        A.   Well, practically we were one command that was in charge of the

 6     operations because I had units, my units, that I resubordinated to the

 7     corps units in order to have this task accomplished from Doboj to Brod,

 8     to the Sava river.

 9        Q.   And when General Mladic visited, you've said you met with him, he

10     would also visit that command post; right?

11        A.   Duge Njive, yes.  Duge Njive.  That's where we were.  That's

12     where he saw us.

13        Q.   And it goes without saying, I suppose, but when you had a

14     superior officer present in your area of responsibility, you'd obviously

15     run any important decisions past them for their approval, consistent with

16     the chain of command; right?

17        A.   Well, in the chain of command, I was subordinated to

18     General Talic, so everything that was done within the chain of command,

19     what was received from the Main Staff he got that.  He sent it down to me

20     and I sent it down to my units.  That's how it went.

21        Q.   Now, turning to the corridor operation, that was carried out

22     pursuant to a directive, directive 1, issued by the Main Staff; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I'm going to ask you a question about the purpose of that

25     operation in a moment.

Page 32534

 1             MR. TRALDI:  But first I'm go to ask Ms. Stewart to play a short

 2     video-clip.  We will have to play it twice because it has not been

 3     pre-confirmed, and that's 65 ter 22338b.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] the second purpose of this

 6     operation is to open a corridor towards Serbia.  In this way, we shall

 7     secure the area of the Krajinas.  It is easier for me to say Krajinas

 8     than the Knin Krajina and Bosanska Krajina.  Thus, we shall secure the

 9     necessary raw materials for industry to work, and above all, to procure

10     medicines and other essentials for children and the infirm.  The third

11     aim of the operation is for us to link up with the East Bosnian Corps and

12     in co-ordination with them, to penetrate to the borders of the Serbian

13     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to join them to the Federal Republic

14     of Yugoslavia."

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   General Talic there states that among the purposes of the

17     corridor operation is to link up the 1st Krajina Corps and the

18     East Bosnia Corps, penetrate to the borders of the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina and join them to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

20             Was that also how you understood the purposes of

21     Operation Corridor?

22        A.   Yes, that's how I understood is that because Doboj was under

23     siege, blocked from all sides by the Croat/Muslim forces.  We just had

24     the railroad going to Banja Luka as our only way out of there.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 22338b.

Page 32535

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video receives number P7173.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P7173 is admitted.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And the establishment of that corridor linking the eastern and

 6     western parts of -- of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the

 7     time you were aware that was one of the strategic objectives of the

 8     Bosnian Serb people that President Karadzic had set out at the 16th

 9     Assembly Session; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And your Operational Group carried out operations including,

12     Operation Corridor in furtherance of those strategic objectives; right?

13        A.   Part of the operations group.  Most of it was securing Doboj and

14     the Serb villages.  Only two of my brigade, two of my brigades of the

15     Territorial Defence, with two ^  to 2500 soldiers were included in the

16     operation at Doboj, Plemen, Derventa, Brod, within Tactical Group 3 that

17     was commanded by Colonel Slavko Lisica.

18        Q.   Just to make sure that the record is clear as to my question.

19             Units within your operation group carried out operations

20     including Operation Corridor in furtherance of the strategic objectives;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now you've mentioned Tactical Group 3 under Colonel Lisica.  In

24     the summer of 1992 there were four tactical groups within Operational

25     Group Doboj; right?

Page 32536

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The commander of tactical group was --

 3        A.   The zone of the corps, yes, yes.

 4        Q.   The commander of Tactical Group 1?

 5        A.   Slavko Lisica 3, 3.  1, Novica Simic.

 6        Q.   4, Radmilo Zeljaja?

 7        A.   His task was to prevent an attack from the Croat/Muslim forces

 8     from the direction of Gradacac, so that they would not hit us from the

 9     back or on the flanks.

10        Q.   Now, those three men were all VRS officers; right?

11        A.   At that time, yes, and they belonged to the units of the 1st

12     Krajina Corps.

13        Q.   Who was the commander of Tactical Group 2?

14        A.   Tactical Group 2, it was Milan Martic.  Within the operations of

15     the corps, it was included in Tactical Group 2.

16        Q.   Now he was included in Tactical Group 2.  Was the commander of

17     that group at some point actually Mile Novakovic?

18        A.   Yes.  Colonel Mile Novakovic.

19        Q.   And which army was he in at the time?

20        A.   At that moment, it was the Army of the Serb Krajina.  I mean,

21     Martic's police.  That's what it was called at the time.

22        Q.   And the tactical groups included, along with VRS forces, forces

23     from the police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, forces from the Army

24     of Republic of Serbian Krajina and RS MUP forces including forces from

25     the Doboj CSB; right?

Page 32537

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And during the course of the corridor operation, those forces

 3     were under the unified command of the VRS; right?

 4        A.   Yes, General Talic, the corps command.

 5        Q.   Now, I left one group out.  There were also units fighting in

 6     Doboj and elsewhere in the Posavina corridor which had been trained,

 7     equipped and were paid by the Serbian DB; right?

 8        A.   I don't know about that.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 32067.

10        Q.   As it comes up, do you remember units that were known as

11     Red Berets being present in your zone of operations in the summer of

12     1992?

13        A.   Yes.  They were in Doboj, but not at the corridor.

14        Q.   And in Doboj, there's a payroll list for the Ministry of Interior

15     Security Services Centre Doboj.  We see, for instance, at number 1, a man

16     named Radojica Bozovic.  And you knew him, in fact, to be from Serbia,

17     didn't you?  Or when I say "from Serbia," I should say to be employed by

18     the Serbian DB; right?

19        A.   I met him, I know.

20        Q.   And did you know that he was employed by the Serbian DB?

21        A.   I did know that.

22        Q.   And you were aware that his and other Red Berets units were

23     active in your zone of operations; right?

24        A.   Yes, for a while.  They just created difficulties for us.  We got

25     rid of them very quickly in an organised manner.  We didn't need the

Page 32538

 1     likes of them.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 32067 receives number P7174.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now one more point on your positions, sir.  At one point, you

 8     became a member of the Doboj War Presidency; right.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32156.

11        Q.   And in the top right corner of the page in B/C/S, we see an

12     article entitled:  "We all have a joint task."  And at the top of the

13     article, we see a reference to one of the people who's made it possible

14     for the Serbian people in the Serbian municipality of Doboj to celebrate

15     their first anniversary in a Serbian state, a Colonel Milivoje Simic.  So

16     this is an article about you; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And I want to look at your response to the third question, and in

19     the B/C/S it's the middle of the right column immediately below your

20     picture, I believe.  Above and below.

21             And you note that:  "I don't think that military and civilian

22     tasks can be separated from each other in this war.  We all have a joint

23     task and that is how we are carrying [sic] out."

24             And that reflects your understanding of the co-operation between

25     the VRS and the Bosnian Serb civilian authorities at that time; right?

Page 32539

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now at the end of the article you note that the corps commander

 3     for civilian sector had tasked you with directly helping local government

 4     organs.  Now you're referring to the assistant commander for civilian

 5     affairs, Colonel Gojko Vujinovic; correct?

 6        A.   Civilian, yes.  Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this interview.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 32156 receives number P7175.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  I'm still trying to

11     find your last quote at the end of the article.  Is this still on the

12     page we have on our screen?

13             MR. TRALDI:  It -- it's not.  Not in the English.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yep, I see that it's on the -- apparently on

15     the second page.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   I want to turn now, sir, to some of the groups you describe in

19     your statement as paramilitaries.

20             You mention Slobodan Karagic's unit.  Now, Mr. Karagic was a

21     member of the special unit of CSB Doboj; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You mention Preda Kujundzic, in fact that was Predrag Kujundzic;

24     right?

25        A.   Yes, I know him, yes.

Page 32540

 1        Q.   And he was also a worker for CSB Doboj; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32062.

 4        Q.   Now, this is an Official Note coming from the National Security

 5     Service Sector of CSB Banja Luka.  And we see an information at the

 6     beginning that Predrag Kujundzic, a worker of the CSB Doboj, acquired for

 7     himself and his group, by means of loot, around 70 kilograms of gold in

 8     jewellery, that he had appropriated for himself a large quantity of

 9     foreign money.  And that:  "In the course of the cleansing of the village

10     of Civcije, the municipality of Doboj, his group handed 350,000 German

11     marks to him which he did not forward to the appropriate institutions."

12             Were you aware that Mr. Kujundzic's group was involved in

13     large-scale looting in your area of responsibility?

14        A.   I didn't know about these details and these quantities, but I

15     know what he was doing, and I cautioned Andrija Bjelosevic specifically

16     at the centre in Doboj that he should take care of his men because people

17     were complaining.  They were not very selective.  They were looting Serb

18     houses and apartments just like Croat and Muslim ones.  That I know.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Kujundzic after the war was convicted of crimes in

20     Bosnia committed against non-Serbs in the Doboj municipality in

21     July 1992; right?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   And we saw here a reference to the cleansing of the village of

24     Civcije.  You're aware, aren't you, that in the summer of 1992, Muslims

25     from Civcije were taken away to detention facilities including a place

Page 32541

 1     called Percin's disco; right?

 2        A.   The Doboj Centre for Security Services was engaged in that.  We

 3     were in our offensive at that point in time.  We didn't deal with any of

 4     that.  I was not informed to what degree but I just know that men from

 5     the village of Civcije as our civilian police or, rather, the centre of

 6     the security services, they barged in, they arrested the people from

 7     there, but where they took them, I don't know.

 8        Q.   And you're ware that Muslim houses in Civcije and the mosque

 9     there were destroyed; right?

10        A.   The mosque, yes.  Serb houses were not.  I mean, the houses were

11     not.  Because Serb refugees from elsewhere, from Ozren, et cetera later

12     came to live in these houses, but the mosque had been destroyed, yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I tender 65 ter 32062, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I see that the title is not fully

15     translated.  It says:  National Security Service Sector.  But Banja Luka

16     is not in the title in the English version, and you referred to it as

17     under the title which we find in the B/C/S.

18             Could you have the translation be verified.

19             At the same time, Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at you, if that would be

20     the only issue, then I would not, at this moment, deny admission, but it

21     certainly should be checked.

22             What you could do is to check it, whether everything else

23     translated and if so we either leave it that's it -- on the record that

24     the words "Banja Luka" are missing or you provide a new translation if

25     there's more.

Page 32542

 1             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We'll check it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7176.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence with the caveat as I

 5     expressed before.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   You also refer in your statement to one paramilitary unit which

 9     you say was of considerable strength from Prnjavor.  The commander of

10     that unit was Veljko Milankovic; right?

11        A.   The Prnjavor Brigade participated in Operation Corridor, but

12     Milankovic never came to Doboj.  He was engaged on the axis starting with

13     Modrica.  I personally saw him in Duge Njive, which was the corps command

14     post.  He was in charge of a group, a paramilitary formation, that is,

15     and together with the units it was engaged, but I don't know what its

16     task was.

17        Q.   And that unit also committed crimes, including looting, during

18     the summer of 1992; right?

19        A.   As far as I know, yes.  From what I could learn, the answer would

20     be yes.

21        Q.   And Milankovic, by the start of the corridor operation, was, in

22     fact, a battalion commander in the 327th Motorised Brigade of the VRS,

23     wasn't he?

24        A.   Believe me, I don't know.  I know that he was more independent

25     than a member of a brigade.

Page 32543

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Well, can we have P3826.

 2        Q.   Now, this is an order signed by General Talic on the 5th of June,

 3     1992.  And we see at point 1 that a battalion from the

 4     Prnjavor Territorial Defence Command is being transferred to the Command

 5     of the 327th Motorised Brigade and fully incorporated into it, and that

 6     General Talic is appointing Lieutenant Veljko Milankovic as battalion

 7     commander.  Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Milankovic

 8     was, during the corridor operations, a battalion commander in the VRS?

 9        A.   Yes.  I don't know whether his unit was a battalion.  It was a

10     somewhat larger group, and they did whatever they wanted to do.

11        Q.   And the stamp we see on this document, this is the

12     Operational Group Doboj stamp; right?

13        A.   Operational Group Doboj, yes.

14        Q.   Can you explain for us the meaning of the symbol that we see in

15     the centre of the stamp.

16        A.   These are four Ss.  Those are usually the markings found on the

17     Serbian coat of arms.  The four Ss.  I know that that was the name of

18     this symbol.

19        Q.   And culturally, it's a Serb nationalist symbol; right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   What do the four Ss stand for?  They're an abbreviation; right?

22        A.   I really wouldn't be able to tell you.  These are just the four

23     Ss depicted on the Serbian flag and those who made stamps also

24     incorporated them into the stamps, but I really wouldn't be in a position

25     to tell you what that means.

Page 32544

 1        Q.   Now, you were aware, you said a moment ago --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And now, Your Honour, I was about to turn to a

 3     slightly different topic.  I saw one of the Judges might have had a

 4     question and so I was stopping to provide an opportunity.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't.  I was just communicating with my

 6     colleague here.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I'm terribly sorry, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No problem.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  This document is, let me just have a look, is

10     tendered, is admitted already.

11             Yes, please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Sir, you mentioned that you were aware that Milankovic's unit

14     committed crimes including looting you were also aware of that during the

15     summer of 1992; right?

16        A.   As the operation progressed, he often went to Prnjavor which was

17     his own area.  He returned.  He was subordinated to the corps command and

18     he reported to General Kelecevic, Bosko Kelecevic, who was the Chief of

19     Staff of the 1st Corps.  Kelecevic commanded him, he gave him tasks, I

20     can tell you that because I know it.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play one more --

22     sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we receive an answer to the question.

24             The question was whether you were aware of Milankovic's unit

25     committing crimes, including looting, during the summer of 1992.

Page 32545

 1             Can you please answer whether you were aware of that.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew some things but not the

 3     details.  I was not authorised to know any details.  He was incorporated

 4     into the corps unit on the order of the corps commander.  I did not

 5     receive reports from him.  I had my own tasks.  He didn't report to me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that still does not exclude for the

 7     possibility that you know something about it.  Witness, you'll hear me --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of some things, but not

 9     of any details.  Only the person to whom he reported was aware of those.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you say, "Of some things," that would include

11     criminal activities, including looting?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some of that, yes.  When we

13     spoke to Kelecevic, we learned that wherever he was with his group, there

14     were problems, that those things should be presented, that he should be

15     chased away.  Such proposals were heard in conversations with Kelecevic

16     and the corps commander.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Now, in fact, the Chamber has received evidence that Milankovic

20     was - although posthumously - decorated by the 1st Krajina Corps command.

21     That's the truth, isn't it?

22        A.   I really don't know that.  I don't know that he was decorated,

23     when and why.  And where.  I don't know.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I see we're close to time for the

25     break.  I'm about to turn to a slightly different matter and so I'd

Page 32546

 1     recommend that we take it now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now.

 3             Mr. Simic, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back

 4     after -- yes, it's a bit confusing for you who is addressing because you

 5     hear it all through an interpreter but it's the Presiding Judge now who

 6     is speaking to you.

 7             We'll take a break, and we'll resume in 20 minutes.  We'd then

 8     like to see you back.  You may follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 1.30.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

14     courtroom.

15             Mr. Traldi, you have already any document on your mind which ...

16             MR. TRALDI:  I hate to waste time.  I am going to ask Ms. Stewart

17     to play another clip and I suppose we could do the first run-through for

18     CLSS ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let's wait for a second so that gives

20     the witness an opportunity to look at it twice, which ...

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And, just to clarify what I said before the break,

24     I'm actually going to stick to a very similar matter for one more clip

25     and if I could ask Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22663a.

Page 32547

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Momcilo Krajisnik, master of arts,

 3     president of the national Assembly of Republika Srpska and candidate of

 4     the SDS for the member of the Presidency of the union addressed those

 5     gathered at the fifth anniversary of the renowned unit Vukovi sa

 6     Vucijaka.

 7             "You Vukovi sa Vucijaka who are present here today in civilian

 8     clothes rather than in uniforms, you belong to this area as much as you

 9     belong to people of Dalmatia, Lika, Western Slavonia, Posavina.  Your war

10     path is difficult but glorious.  Since 1991, when you lit the torch of

11     freedom defending the people of the Serbian Krajina, you went through all

12     theatres of war and participated in many combats in Republika Srpska and

13     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Both your friends and enemies will

14     remember your heroism.  You and your legendary commander,

15     Veljko Milankovic are history's favourites.  I have no doubt ... I have

16     no doubt that children in schools, and especially military school cadets,

17     will ask themselves when studying about our combat - what were they like?

18     What -- which formation did Vukovi sa Vucijaka belong to?  The response

19     will be:  It was the unit every army in the world would be proud of.

20     Your deeds are immortal because each of were worth two men.  In other

21     words, we can simply say:  You belonged to the entire Serbian people."

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Now, I have just a couple of simple questions with you about that

24     video.

25             First, Mr. Krajisnik refers to the fifth anniversary of

Page 32548

 1     Milankovic's units, that places these remarks after the war; right?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   By that point, Milankovic's unit's involvement in the crimes that

 4     you mentioned, crimes including looting, was well-known, wasn't it?

 5        A.   I know something about that, but not everything.  Like most of

 6     the people, so ... yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender that clip.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 22663a receives number P7177.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P7177 is admitted.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, during the summer of 1992, you were also directly informed

13     about crimes being committed by members of Serb forces in your area of

14     responsibility; right?

15        A.   No, not me directly.  Perhaps General Talic.  My main areas were

16     Doboj and Teslic, and my two units were attached to the corps unit, but,

17     as such, they were the responsibility of the corps command.

18        Q.   Now, you've suggested that you had command over a limited number

19     of the units within Operational Group Doboj a couple of times now.  Was

20     it that the 1st Krajina Corps Command, General Talic and

21     General Kelecevic was exercising direct command --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Wait for the end of the question.

24             Was the 1st Krajina Corps exercising direct control over the

25     other units within what was formally Operational Group Doboj.

Page 32549

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Well, you said a moment ago you suggested you had two units which

 3     were attached to the corps unit.  You testified earlier that

 4     Operational Group Doboj had four tactical groups.  Those four tactical

 5     groups, they were under your command; right?

 6        A.   No.  Corps command had four tactical groups that were under its

 7     command.  My two brigades were elements of TG3.  Colonel Lisica was the

 8     commander.  They were considered to be a corps unit participating in the

 9     breakthrough of the corridor.  That would be that.

10        Q.   I'm going look at the two municipalities that you referred to a

11     moment ago as your main area, Doboj and Teslic.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32065.  And this will relate to

13     Doboj.

14        Q.   And we see a communication from the Ministry of the Interior,

15     Security Services Centre, Doboj.  We see it comes from

16     Chief Andrija Bjelosevic and we see the last of the addressees, the

17     commander of the Operational Group Colonel Milivoje Simic.  That's you;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And under the subject line we read:  "We have been dissatisfied

21     for quite a long time with the security situation in our region and

22     especially in Doboj municipality.  There is an increasing incidence of

23     murder, looting, export of vehicles and Muslims and Ustashas departing

24     for Serbia ..."

25             Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were

Page 32550

 1     directly informed of crimes being committed by members of Serb forces in

 2     your area of responsibility during 1992?

 3        A.   That was done by paramilitary formations and forces of the public

 4     security centre.  There were some renegade groups there as well.  They

 5     were not under anybody's command.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm speaking.  Could you please answer the question

 7     rather to elaborate on.  The question was about whether you were directly

 8     informed about these crimes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi is asking this because he sees that you

11     are one of the addressees and whereas this letter, this document,

12     describes those crimes.  So, therefore, he was seeking confirmation that

13     you would be directly informed.

14             But could you explain, considering this letter, why you say you

15     were not directly informed?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was on the 23rd of September,

17     1992.  Perhaps that.  In the month of September.  That was almost the end

18     of Operation Corridor.  I was not in Doboj.  He informed me about

19     everything, but that was on the 23rd of September.  He informed me about

20     certain things that he was supposed to deal with.  They were the ones who

21     arrested people, brought them in, forwarded them for trials.  The command

22     did not have anything to do with that, as command.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Two more questions about this document.

Page 32551

 1             At the end of the paragraph, Chief Bjelosevic refers to Muslims

 2     and Ustashas departing to Serbia.

 3             By Ustasha, he means ethnic Croats, doesn't he?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, second, they were leaving because of the crimes that he's

 6     describing, which were being perpetrated against them, weren't they?

 7        A.   Probably, yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tendered 65 ter 32065.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32065 receives number P7178.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P7178 is admitted.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   I'm going to ask briefly now about one other municipality, Odzak.

14     That was also part of this same corridor operation; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip

17     65 ter 22338c.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You're going to play it twice, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  We are.  And I apologise for not stating that

20     explicitly.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] was mainly inhabited by Croats, I

23     say was, as this is now a ghost town.  There are still fresh traces of

24     fighting.  But why was the war fought for this town?  It's only now

25     apparent that the local Croats had prepared to settle scores with their

Page 32552

 1     neighbours a long time before the conflict erupted.  Immediately after

 2     the civil war began, strong Croatian forces were concentrated here.

 3     Serbs were brought from the neighbouring towns of Novi Grad, Modrica and

 4     Novo Selo.  A really concentration camp was formed here on the football

 5     pitch, and all this in a place where people had once lived well and in

 6     prosperity in and from the old Yugoslavia.  It is obvious that there was

 7     to desire here for peaceful life, on the contrary.

 8             "General Ratko Mladic:  Since they didn't want this but instead

 9     attacked us, attempted to destroy and burn the Serbian population, you

10     yourself can see how they fared.  Here we are in a place where I found

11     myself for the first time.  This is an entire town where people

12     prospered, where the former Yugoslavia gave them much more than all of us

13     put together.  I belonged to a category which some might say was

14     privileged because I was an officer, and, of course, better paid.

15     However, I could only dream of what people had here.  The Socialist

16     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia gave everything to these people.  They

17     converted their houses into bunkers, shelters, underground casemates and

18     torture Chambers for Serbs.

19             "Reporter:  It is down to these people that Odzak which they have

20     made into a town of evil, today looks so sad and empty."

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, we heard in that video Odzak describes as a ghost town and

23     as looking sad and empty.  Odzak was, as the reporter said, mainly

24     inhabited by ethnic Croats before the war; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 32553

 1        Q.   And it's correct, isn't it, that thousands of people fled after

 2     the VRS attacked it, leaving the town looking, as it was described there,

 3     sad and empty; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22338c.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video receives number P7179.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P7179 is admitted.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Now, you mentioned General Mladic visited several times during

11     the corridor operation.  One of those was that he was in Duge Njive on

12     16th of July, 1992; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, I'm going to turn away from that subject and turn to another

15     of the municipalities you mentioned, Teslic.

16             Now the Chamber has received evidence that you deployed some of

17     your subordinates, including Captain Ljubisa Petricevic and

18     Major Jovo Popovic to Teslic around the 1st of June, 1992; right?

19        A.   I'm not familiar this event.  Petricevic was chief of the

20     Ministry of Defence in Doboj.  This is civilian authority.  He was not

21     subordinated to me.  I was not his superior.  I could not give him

22     orders, despite what it says in the report.

23        Q.   Do you recall Ranko Sljuka, Zoran Sljuka, Dario Slavuljica, and

24     Miroslav Pijunovic as having been among your subordinates?

25        A.   They were not my subordinates, no.  I don't know whose

Page 32554

 1     subordinates they were, but they were certainly not mine.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, before the next question I ask -- I'd

 3     suggest the witness be advised of his rights under Rule 90(E).

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the Prosecution has asked me to give you

 5     a -- to inform you about Rule 90(E) -- and it's me, Presiding Judge, who

 6     is addressing you at this moment.  I'll read Rule 90(E) to you:

 7             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

 8     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

 9     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

10     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

11     offence other than false testimony."

12             Which means that if you think that a truthful answer to any

13     question Mr. Traldi will put to you - or anyone else - would tend to

14     incriminate yourself, you may address me and ask to be relieved from your

15     duty to answer that question.  We'll then consider that.

16             Is that clear to you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Do you recall at any time in 1992 asking to have your

21     subordinates, including the men I just mentioned, released after they'd

22     been arrested for a crime so that they could be send back to the front?

23        A.   Is there a document to that effect?  I don't remember that I ever

24     requested that.

25             Those men were not members of the brigade which was under Doboj

Page 32555

 1     OG.  They were probably members of the public security centre in Doboj.

 2     I don't remember.  If there is a document, could you please show it to

 3     me?

 4        Q.   I'll use a series of documents just so that we get through in

 5     some detail.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Let's start with 65 ter 32048.

 7        Q.   Now, this is a report on initiating criminal proceedings against

 8     members of the military police at the Security Services Centre in Doboj.

 9     And problems relating to the actions of judicial organs.  You see it's

10     from the office of the public prosecutor in Teslic and addressees include

11     the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Interior, and the Ministry of

12     National Defence.

13             And we see a reference in the first paragraph to a criminal

14     report, the office of the public prosecutor received against a number of

15     persons, including Slobodan Karagic, and the men that we just discussed.

16             Now, scrolling down to the bottom of the first paragraph, bottom

17     at the page in English, the document says the Office of the Public

18     Prosecutor received a report against them for crimes, including robbery,

19     extortion, aggravated theft, and murder.

20             And if we turn to page 2 in the English, at point 2, we read that

21     on the 10th of July, the Office of the Public Prosecutor in Teslic filed

22     a request to initiate an investigation against these reported persons on

23     the suspicion that they had committed the crimes of illegal arrest,

24     robbery, and extortion, and for some of them, also the crimes of

25     aggravated theft and murder.

Page 32556

 1             Are you familiar with this case?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 3     witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, one second, please.

 5             The interpreters have difficulties in hearing you because you

 6     your microphone is not adjusted.  Yes.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was written on the

 9     28th of July.  I don't know who this was sent to.  This information, as

10     far as I can remember, and my memory serves me well, I did not receive

11     this information, and I couldn't have known about this.  This was done by

12     the CSB Doboj because they had within their jurisdiction Teslic, the CSB

13     Teslic.  They worked on the basis of their laws.  I don't know about

14     this.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   So it's your evidence you never heard about this case?

17        A.   I did not know, no.  Now was this sent to my name or the command?

18     I don't know.  Does this information contain information about who this

19     was sent to?  I cannot see this from this document.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness's

21     microphone please be adjusted.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you also answer the last question

23     that was put to you by Mr. Traldi.  Whether it is your evidence that you

24     never heard about this case, irrespective of whether this was sent to you

25     or not, but did you ever hear about this case?

Page 32557

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we please have 65 ter 32049.

 4        Q.   Now, we see here this is headed:

 5             "Doboj Operations Group Command, identified as to the Teslic

 6     public prosecutor's office, to the Teslic lower court, and subject

 7     Dario Slavuljica, request for release."

 8             Now, that's one of the men in the document we just looked at.

 9             In the first paragraph here, we see he is identified as a

10     soldier, serving compulsory military service as a member of military

11     police.

12             In the second paragraph, we read that:  "Based on what we have

13     been told, it may be deduced that Dario Slavuljica acted as a member of

14     the military police unit and that he carried out orders issued by his

15     superior officer who has been charged with the alleged acts."

16             Turning to page 2, we see - and I'll give it a minute for the

17     B/C/S - we see the stamp.  That's, again, the stamp of Operation Group

18     Doboj; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And whose name does this document bear?

21        A.   Mine.

22        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Whose is it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 32558

 1        Q.   Is it yours?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were, in

 4     fact, familiar with this particular case?

 5        A.   Well, since I signed it - and that was probably 19 years ago - I

 6     was probably aware of it.

 7             As for the future fate of this case, I don't know about that.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Let's turn back to the previous page in the English

 9     at the bottom, and actually the previous page in the B/C/S as well; also

10     at the bottom.

11        Q.   We read that you write:  "We wish to underline that no one has

12     the right to gamble with the destiny of a Serbian fighter who honourably

13     carried out his military duties in the struggle for liberation of Serbian

14     territories from various paramilitary units."

15             Now, taken together with the rest of this document, does that

16     refresh your recollection as to whether Mr. Slavuljica was one of your

17     subordinates?

18        A.   If I remembered, I would know what position he held.  If he did

19     hold a position.  In the command of the operations group, Slavuljica was

20     not there, no.

21        Q.   Looking at the top paragraph currently on our screen in the

22     English and the paragraph beginning with:  "Dana 21.5.1992" in the B/C/S,

23     we read:  "His one-year military service term expired on 21 May 1992.  In

24     order to serve additional three months, he managed to get across from

25     Mostar to Doboj add midst combat operations and place himself at the

Page 32559

 1     disposal of the Serbian Army of BH, under the command of this operations

 2     group."

 3             Now, it's quite clear that at the time you were saying that

 4     Mr. Slavuljica was under your command.  That's the truth, isn't it?

 5        A.   It's the truth according to the document that he is a soldier.

 6     Now where he was deployed which brigade, which battalion, he wasn't at

 7     the command, and I was carrying out tasks related to Operation Corridor.

 8     If I signed this - and I did sign it - but I do not remember him as a

 9     soldier, so I cannot say that's the man, and I cannot say where he was

10     sent and what he did.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32052.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that --

13             In the letter, Mr. Simic, a lot is said about the father of this

14     Mr. Slavuljica.  Where did you get that knowledge from, who his father

15     was?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this day, I don't know who his

17     father would be.

18             As for this document here that is stamped and verified, that's

19     not my signature, and I don't know whose signature it is.

20             JUDGE ORIE, Well, I'm referring you to the previous document

21     where you said you did sign it.  Which explains the position of the

22     father and I'm addressing you, Witness, I -- explaining the position of

23     his father.  Where did you get that knowledge from?  Previous document,

24     not this one which is on the screen now.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever it was that wrote the

Page 32560

 1     document probably did know, and I signed it, trusting the person who

 2     wrote it up.  I'm telling you now that I did not know his father.  I do

 3     not know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now we see here this document, again it bears your name in the

 8     Operational Group Doboj stamp.  It's entitled, "Release of military

 9     personnel from detention."  And it says:  "Your court has ordered an

10     investigation of military personnel from our unit ..."

11             And it lists a number of men, including Ranko Sljuka, Zoran

12     Sljuka, Dario Slavuljica, and some others.  We read:  "Since the

13     above-named have been questioned, and in view of the fact that extensive

14     combat operations are in progress in the area of Doboj, Teslic and Tesanj

15     municipalities, we request that these members of the military be released

16     immediately in order to take part in these operations."

17             Now does that, again, refresh your recollection as to whether the

18     men I asked you about were members of Operational Group Doboj?

19        A.   They are members of the army but members of the operations group

20     or some brigade.  I'm looking at this other document.  This is not my

21     signature.  This is a forged signature.  The 17th of July, 1992.

22        Q.   We see this document bears twice the Operational Group Doboj

23     stamp that you've recognised; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Who had access to that stamp?

Page 32561

 1        A.   The operative organ that kept it in the command of the operations

 2     group, but this is obviously a forgery, a forgery of my signature.  And,

 3     therefore, I am unfamiliar with that concrete situation and this man who

 4     is in question.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Let's look at 65 ter 32055 quickly.  And that will

 6     be the last document I show today.

 7        Q.   Now this a ruling from the Teslic lower court dated 21st of July,

 8     1992.  And it -- it lists the accused.  Many of the names are the same as

 9     the ones we have been discussing.

10             And under the word ruling, we read:  "Detention is hereby

11     cancelled," and it refers to a number of the accused for whom

12     cancellation of detention was requested.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2.  Both languages.  Under

14     statements of reasons.  The English at the bottom.  And, I'm sorry, we

15     need to have the very bottom of page one in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   We see a reference to a letter dated the 17th of July, 1992 from

17     the Doboj operations Group requesting that the men we've been discussing

18     be released immediately, since they were members of the military and were

19     needed to take part in war operations.

20             Now, that refers to the letter we just looked at; right?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And turning to page 3 now in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S,

23     in the next-to-last paragraph, we read the investigating judge's finding.

24     He notes that:  "The majority of the questioned individuals gave

25     statements in which they confessed to the crimes, that the court

Page 32562

 1     established that the basis for ordering detention no longer existed, that

 2     the court particularly appraised the request put forward by the said

 3     military command in the context of time and prevailing circumstances and

 4     deduced that following the essential investigation, the accused would be

 5     subordinated to the said command and would therefore not be able to

 6     impact the criminal proceedings."

 7             So basically, the Teslic court is agreeing that these soldiers

 8     are needed to fight the war and so they should be released from custody;

 9     right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, lest I forget I'd tender three of the

12     four documents on this.  Those are 65 ter 32048.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours the number would be P7180.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

16             MR. TRALDI:  32049.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P7181.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

20             MR. TRALDI:  And 32055.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The numbering would be P7182.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             MR. TRALDI:  As to the one where the witness didn't recognise his

25     signature, we'll look into it further and I'll -- I may make further

Page 32563

 1     submissions.  I'm happy to have it marked for identification if the

 2     Chamber finds that simplest but I'm in your hands.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's appropriate to do because the witness

 4     commented on the document so, therefore, it should be on the record

 5     somewhere.

 6             Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32052 will receive number P7183.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 9             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  You may follow the usher but

10     not until after I have instructed you -- one second.  One second.

11     Witness.  Could the witness put his earphones on again.

12             Mr. Simic, before you leave the courtroom, I instruct you - and

13     it's the Presiding Judge who is addressing you at this moment - I

14     instruct you that -- yes.  I instruct you that you should not speak or

15     communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether

16     that is testimony you have begin today, or whether that's testimony still

17     due to be given tomorrow.

18             If that is clear, we'd like to see you back at 9.30 tomorrow

19     mourning in this same courtroom.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that, and it is clear

21     to me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may now follow the usher.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, before we adjourn ...

25             Yes, we adjourn for the day.  Mr. Traldi how much time would you

Page 32564

 1     still need tomorrow.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I'd be able to be more specific in the morning, I

 4     think, but for practical purposes, less than half an hour for my

 5     questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a look at how much time you used until

 7     now.

 8             Mr. Lukic, what do you anticipate you would need for

 9     re-examination?

10             MR. S. LUKIC:  Maybe ten, 15 minutes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

12             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the

13     4th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

16                           March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.