1 Tuesday, 3 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that both parties wanted to raise a
12 preliminary matter.
13 Mr. Lukic, you go first.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 I just want to direct Your Honours' attention to the filing from
16 yesterday by the Defence. It's our request for non-sitting week for
17 Easter period, meaning Orthodox Easter. So, we are facing the same
18 problems as we did during the January holidays, so we -- we -- it's
19 almost impossible for us. People do not want to talk to us at all. They
20 should be here and be prepared during Easter, if they want to, and Easter
21 Sunday, if we want to lead them.
22 So we would kindly ask you to consider our problems and we
23 explained that everything is going smoothly and we do not want any -- any
24 interruptions and we would have some probably, many, during that week,
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand for Orthodox Christmas, I
2 think, we tried to accommodate you, whether --
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, you do, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We still have to consider whether we do the same for
5 Orthodox Easter. To be fair to you, we had already a non-sitting week on
6 our minds. I'm not going to tell you which one, but it was not the one
7 you have on our mind and we had some other reasons for that.
8 MR. LUKIC: We will not object to that non-sitting week either.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think it's in everyone's interest to
10 proceed. Not only in the interests of the international community and
11 the Chamber but also in the interests of the accused.
12 We'll certainly pay proper attention to your filing, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: Thank you --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You're doing the mathematics today.
17 MR. TRALDI: I'm reluctant to try my hand at mathematics in the
18 morning, Your Honour.
19 But I did want to address the issue that arose yesterday with MFI
20 P7167. I've checked our records and the situation is we have two
21 versions of the document in the original B/C/S, 1st Krajina Corps
22 document number 485. One of those versions, the version uploaded in this
23 case we got from the 1st Krajina Corps collection, it includes eight
24 names. One of those versions we got from a Defence team in a previous
25 trial. That includes nine names in both English and the B/C/S. I
1 provided it to Mr. Lukic this morning. And we agreed that under the
2 circumstances, the most practical thing would be that we would simply
3 rely on the names that are in the 1st Krajina Corps collection version
4 and not address the matter -- or not clarify the matter further.
5 We've reviewed the document, the remainder of the B/C/S text is
6 identical in the two versions. There is a addition, an ordinal number in
7 the top right-hand corner. You can see in the English, it is 131/3. The
8 B/C/S of the version we received from that previous Defence team which
9 has an ERN number one number earlier has the ordinal number is 130/3 so
10 my impression is that relates to that previous trial but we won't be
11 relying on or seeking to ascribe meaning to those four digits either.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and just for the transcript, I think you said
13 the one you received from the Defence tame was 130-3.
14 MR. TRALDI: Yes. In line 7 of temporary transcript page 3, I'm
15 correctly recorded to have said 131/3 and I see line 9 has now correctly
16 recorded me 130/3 [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... it is now corrected.
18 Yes, of course, it's always a bit worrying to know that there are
19 two identical -- to -- two different versions of one and the same
20 document, but if the parties agree that in itself with eight or nine
21 names that such an order was issued, then I don't think that the Chamber
22 will insist on further exploring the -- the cause of the variation.
23 Then the English version was with the -- at this moment the
24 translation was the one with the eight names or the nine names?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Nine names.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Nine names. So we now need an English version to be
2 uploaded with only the nine names -- the eight names.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mathematics.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well --
5 MR. TRALDI: I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one who
6 struggles with them in the morning, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I'm a bit surprised by myself that even
8 under ten I have difficulties in doing the math correctly. Above ten, I
9 was used to that, but ...
10 Let's leave it to that. Once the correct version has been
11 uploaded, if it has been done, it should be attached --
12 MR. TRALDI: We'll inform the Chamber once that's been done.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
14 Then if that's all done, the witness can be escorted in the
16 And I use the opportunity to deal with a small matter. It is a
17 remaining issue from the testimony of Cedo Sipovac.
18 On the 12th of November of last year, during the testimony of
19 Cedo Sipovac, D767, D768, and D769 were marked for identification.
20 On 3rd of February of this year, Defence submitted that it
21 considered the admission of these documents through another witness
22 instead of tendering them through Sipovac.
23 After the Prosecution had objected to the letter, the Defence
24 indicated it would advise the Chamber at a later date whether it would
25 argue the Prosecution's objections or whether it would seek to tender the
1 document through another witness.
2 On 24th of February the Defence was unable to advise the Chamber
3 of its position on this. The Chamber then expected the Defence to
4 respond later that same week, and this can be found at transcript page
6 As at today's date, the Defence has not responded, and the
7 Chamber wonders whether it could receive the position of the Defence
8 relating to the documents D767, D768, and D769.
9 Mr. Lukic, it's not a long story I take it.
10 MR. LUKIC: No. Now we are certain that the witness who issued
11 those documents will testify in our case.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore you leave them as they are, and you'll
13 tender them through that witness.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Krcmar. Apologies for continuing
18 to deal with administrative matters when you entered the courtroom, but
19 we'll now continue.
20 Mr. Traldi will continue his cross-examination, and I remind you
21 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
22 beginning of your testimony.
23 Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: Can 65 ter 32105 be brought to the screen.
25 WITNESS: GORAN KRCMAR [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
3 Q. And as it is, good morning, sir.
4 A. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.
5 Q. Now, this is the rules and regulations for the work of the
6 commission for the exchange of prisoners of war in the zone of
7 responsibility of the East Bosnia Corps. I just want to look at one
8 point quickly.
9 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 5 in the B/C/S and 3 in the
11 Q. At the top of the page in the B/C/S and towards the bottom in the
12 English we see point 13, and it says that: "The exchange of prisoners of
13 war shall be conducted on the one-for-one basis (soldier for soldier,
14 woman for woman, elderly person for elderly person), or on the
15 all-for-all basis."
16 Is it right that the category of prisoners of war exchanged by
17 the corps commissions also included women and elderly persons, as well as
19 A. This -- these are regulations of the IBK -- corps, not my corps.
20 I did not have such rules. In principle, all exchanges should have been
21 all for all. If no such agreement could be arrived then it would be one
22 for one, but according to our rules, we did not exchange a woman for a
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Krcmar, the question still stands: Were
25 there women and elderly people amongst your prisoners of war?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area where I worked, that
2 did not exist. In the area of the 1st Krajina Corps, we did not have any
3 imprisoned women. There was just one case, a woman who was charged with
4 spying, and she was exchanged for another prisoner of war. These are the
5 regulations of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, not of the 1st Krajina Corps,
6 whose member I was.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Sir, what I'm putting to you is that soldiers is a distinct
9 category, and there are also other categories because the VRS corps
10 exchange commissions also exchanged people who were not soldiers, not
11 properly prisoners of war. That's the truth, isn't it?
12 A. It is true that prisoners of war were exchanged for other
13 prisoners of war. People who were in military prisons, those run by the
14 corps, not civilian wards and again I'm speaking on behalf of the 1st
15 Krajina Corps. I remind you that I worked in the 1st Krajina Corps, not
16 in the East Bosnia Corps, and I cannot testify on behalf of the latter.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, unless you know something about it.
18 Witness, again -- Mr. Traldi perhaps you should split up your
19 questions always: Did this happen in the corps for which this witness
20 was responsible or does he have any knowledge about it happening in any
21 other corps. Because you are constantly asking your questions in the
22 plural, corps, with an S and commissions, with an S, whereas, the witness
23 always says, I can't testify about that.
24 And let me be very clear, Witness, if you know something, you
25 should tell us, irrespective or whether it was from your commission or
1 any -- or from a commission of any other corps of the VRS. Let that be
2 clear to you.
3 Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, document 32105 receives number
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. TRALDI: And can we have P4008.
10 Q. Now, this is an order you also saw during direct examination,
11 from General Tolimir issued the 3rd of October, 1994.
12 As a first question, we see the Muslims are going to receive
13 prisoners from the Foca prison, Rudo prison, Visegrad prison, and parts
14 of prisoners from Batkovic and Butmir. None of those prisons were in the
15 1st Krajina Corps' area of responsibility were they?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Now, how is it that you were able to express a view on the
18 exchange policy expressed in this document when otherwise you have been
19 unable to express a view on exchanges conducted by the commissions of
20 other corps?
21 A. Here it says in paragraph, the last one or the penultimate one,
22 that Dragan Bulajic will be in charge of the exchange. That's why I
23 think that the exchange was organised by the civilian commission, i.e.,
24 Dragan Bulajic. It doesn't seem that any of the corps was involved in
25 the negotiations about this particular exchange.
1 Q. Now, we see here in the third paragraph that General Tolimir is
2 writing that the Main Staff has sent the text of the draft agreement on
3 prisoner exchange and lists of prisoners to the area of responsibility
4 of, as he puts it, "your corps."
5 And we see at the top that it's addressed to the SRK, the IBK,
6 the Herzegovina Corps and the Drina Corps.
7 Below that, we read that: "The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps will not
8 receive the lists considering that they have a member in the state
9 commission for exchange and that he is in possession of the full
11 Do you know who the SRK's member in the state commission for
12 exchange was?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. And you testified yesterday at transcript page 32469 that
15 General Tolimir was one of the Main Staff officers who would issue
16 approval for exchanges. You don't have any personal knowledge as to how
17 he was involved - or not - in negotiating this particular exchange, do
19 A. I don't know whether he participated in the negotiations for this
20 particular exchange. However, the Main Staff issued instructions and
21 approvals for our exchanges when we turned to them. Whether there was
22 somebody in the state commission or not, I really don't know.
23 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence - P6722 for the parties -
24 that in the ensuing exchange, the Bosnian Serbs freed 247 prisoners,
25 which included 19 Bosnian army soldiers, as well as numbers of women,
1 children, elderly people, and people who were physically challenged.
2 Were you aware of how this exchange or how the exchange that
3 arose from this order was eventually conducted?
4 MR. LUKIC: I think that he cannot answer without the document.
5 Even I don't remember anymore what this document is about.
6 MR. TRALDI: I think if I was asking him to express details about
7 the exchange or comment on the document, I could see that. All I was
8 asking the witness was whether he was aware of those facts, yes or no,
9 and I'm happy to call it up, but I think it's straightforward enough for
10 him to tell us.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it step by step.
12 You asked the witness whether he has any recollection of what you
13 just mentioned, and if he has not, it may refresh his recollection if he
14 would have a look at the document.
15 MR. TRALDI: It may or it may not be necessary to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it in your hands. The witness is not asked
17 to tell us anything about the document but it's just for reference and
18 for the Chamber and the Defence that you refer to this document.
19 Now, Witness, Mr. Traldi will put the question to you again.
20 Carefully listen to it and answer it.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. And I'll try to frame it very precisely, sir, the Chamber has
23 received evidence that there was an exchange conducted pursuant to the
24 same agreement we see reflected here and that in that exchange, the
25 Bosnian Serbs freed 247 prisoners, those prisoners included 19 Bosnian
1 army soldiers, as well as numbers of women, children, elderly people, and
2 people who were physically challenged.
3 Were you aware of the facts that I've just recited.
4 A. I didn't know, because the 1st Krajina Corps where I worked was
5 not involved in this exchange. Had it been involved I would have
6 probably known. But, no, I didn't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, just tell us you don't know. You
8 don't have to explain why you do not know something.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Now I'm going to turn to one matter that you discuss in your
13 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 00872.
14 Q. Now, this is a document from the VRS Main Staff dated the 8th of
15 June, 1993. It refers to the exchange of prisoners of war and it refers
16 in the first paragraph to a massive exodus of Serbs and Croats across
17 HVO-controlled territories to the territory of Republika Srpska.
18 In the second paragraph, we see what appears to be an instruction
19 that this exodus should "be used to force the Croatian side to
20 unconditionally release all prisoners of war from the VRS, VRSK, and the
21 former JNA and all civilians who wish to leave the Croatian-controlled
22 parts of the former BH."
23 Now, you describe this incident as a rescue of Croats in your
24 statement. Your commission and the 1st Krajina Corps received
25 instructions to use that exodus to force the Croatian side to facilitate
1 an exchange of Serb; right?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I'd put to you we see that policy clearly reflected in this
4 document. That's the truth, isn't it?
5 A. What I put to you is that I took part in the freeing of the
6 Croatian population in Central Bosnia and their transfer across the
7 border. They were in conflict with the Muslim army and there were no
8 conditions that were set forth. I personally took part in that.
9 Q. Well, we see this is dated 8th of June. The Chamber has received
10 evidence that a POW camp at Manjaca was set up and several hundred Croats
11 held there on the 8th of June -- on or about the 8th of June, 1993. Is
12 it your evidence that you weren't aware of that?
13 A. Could you please clarify that for me? I'm afraid that I have
14 misunderstood. I do not see the date on the document. Could you please
15 help me with that at least?
16 MR. TRALDI: Could we zoom in on the top left corner, please, in
17 the B/C/S.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see 1993, but I don't see the
19 month. I don't see the date as such.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. I understand it's not terribly clear on the screen, but --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's a euphemism, Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: I certainly hadn't intended it that way,
24 Mr. President. I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, and let's see whether the date as it
1 appears in the English version finds its -- a proper basis in the
3 MR. TRALDI: Often the scanned version doesn't fully reflect what
4 the interpreters are able to work with.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we should have a look at the version on
6 the basis of which the 8th of June is ...
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can go to the next page in B/C/S.
8 Sometimes a date appears there as well.
9 MR. TRALDI: If we look at the end, there will be a stamp.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wherein which the 10th of June appears as the
11 date on which this document was processed.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. So is it clear to you now, sir, that we're talking at least about
14 the month of June in the year 1993?
15 A. Yes. That can be seen here now. The 10th of June, 1993. That's
16 the date.
17 Q. And what I was putting to you was that on or about the 8th of
18 June, 1993, the Chamber has received evidence that a POW camp at Manjaca
19 was set up to hold Croats from Vares. Is it your evidence that you
20 weren't aware of that?
21 A. The POW camp at Manjaca? That is not the purpose for which it
22 was established. If you allow me to explain, Your Honours?
23 Yes. There was an unknown number of Croat people from
24 Central Bosnia that we took over and, quite simply, we transported them
25 through Republika Srpska towards Croatia and third countries. Also, a
1 large number of wounded persons. I personally took them over. They were
2 in Banja Luka for 15 days, as far as I know, until conditions were
3 created for their departure. All of them were members of the HVO, the
4 Croatian Defence Council, so this is certainly not a question of
5 prisoners and POW camps. All of this was done for humane reasons.
6 At the time, my duty and obligation was towards the wounded of
7 the HVO.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, our problem is that the document says
9 otherwise. Are you aware of that problem?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what the document
11 says. But I'm speaking from my own practice, what happened on the ground
12 and how this was actually being done, on the ground.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 2 in the English as well. In,
15 sorry, in both languages. I hadn't realised we'd moved back in the
17 Q. At point 7, we read that: "Reports on all exchanges are to be
18 regularly submitted to the Main Staff. Upon the completion of the
19 all-for-all exchange process, when we make sure that all our prisoners
20 have been exchanged, we shall release the Zarko Tole group and the
21 Croatian extremists from HVO units who surrendered."
22 So I have two questions for you about this language.
23 First, we see, again, a reference to a planned exchange of these
24 persons; right?
25 A. Yes. These are persons who were prisoners of war, like Zarko
1 Tole, an officer of the Croatian Defence Council.
2 Q. And while most of these prisoners had been taken recently as a
3 result of that surrender, Mr. Tole had, in fact, been in VRS custody for
4 more than a year at this point and had been transferred through the VRS
5 camp system; right?
6 A. Zarko Tole is a classical POW. And he has nothing to do with
7 this release of people from Central Bosnia. Zarko Tole was in the
8 official prisons of Republika Srpska, not in camps.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... wondering
10 whether you are talking at cross-purposes.
11 What Mr. Traldi puts to you is that in paragraph 7 he reads that,
12 first, there will be an exchange. And once that's totally completed,
13 that then Zarko Tole group and the Croatian extremists who had
14 surrendered are to be released.
15 So we have two matters, and I think the question of Mr. Traldi
16 was about the first issue, that is, the exchange of prisoners, first, to
17 be completed; and then the second issue is who should, after that, be
19 Now, Mr. Traldi asked you whether this paragraph indeed confirms
20 that there was an exchange of prisoners planned, whereas your answer was
21 about the second part, that is, what should happen after that exchange of
22 prisoners has been completed.
23 So - Mr. Traldi, if I understood your question well about the
24 exchange of prisoners, could you first answer the question whether this,
25 again, confirms that an exchange of prisoners was planned and leave out,
1 for the time being, the Zarko Tole group and what should happen after
3 Could you answer that first question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's easier for me this way. An
5 exchange of POWs had just been planned that had been agreed on earlier.
6 It was planned as stated in this document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I think that
8 answers the question by Mr. Traldi. He asked whether the document
9 expresses that an exchange of prisoners was planned, and you say, yes,
10 that's what happened.
11 Therefore the next question perhaps.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. The second question I asked was just Mr. Tole he had been in VRS
14 custody and I'm not contesting that he was a classical prisoner of war.
15 He been in VRS custody for more than a year. At that point had been
16 transferred from Manjaca to Batkovic within the system of detention
17 facilities; right?
18 A. In principle I did not in which prison Zarko Tole was. I did
19 negotiate his exchange but once the exchange an agreed upon then I
20 address the security department and I ask for a POW to be made available
21 for exchanges. All the POWs that I took over were taken over only for --
22 from military prisons, the three military prisons that were within the
23 area of responsibility of the Krajina Corps.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender this document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document number 00872 receives
2 number P7170.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P7170 is admitted.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one quick question.
5 Was Mr. Tole detained in VRS custody for more than a year at that
6 point in time?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32099.
10 Q. And, sir, this will be the last document I show you.
11 As it comes up, during direct examination you talked about some
12 graves in the Sarajevo area. Now, you became aware of the information
13 you've provided about Sarajevo after the war in the course of your work;
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. You testified at transcript page 32412 that 471 Serbs have been
17 exhumed in Sarajevo. The Sarajevo area, as I understand, makes up ten
18 municipalities. Does the figure of 471 Serbs include exhumations
19 wherever in that ten municipality area they may have been conducted?
20 A. No. Just municipalities that were under the control of the
21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. And you mentioned specifically the grave in the Lav cemetery.
23 Are you aware - yes or no - that forensic analysis has revealed some of
24 the bodies exhumed from the Lav cemetery over the years died of wounds
25 from shelling or sniping?
1 A. The post-mortem findings would show that if we had them here.
2 I've already said it was a violent death. We cannot talk about that
3 without the post-mortem findings, and that is the field of forensic
5 Q. So, sir, I wasn't asking you to offer a medical opinion. I was
6 simply asking whether you were aware - yes or no - that post-mortem
7 findings had reached that conclusion.
8 Could you answer that question, please.
9 A. I think I've answered. And just one more thing in relation to
10 this grave, if the Chamber -- oh, okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, you have not answered that question.
12 Second, the question is not whether rightly or wrongly these
13 conclusions were made. The question is whether in these autopsy reports
14 it is stated that people died from shelling wounds or sniping wounds.
15 Right or wrong, but whether you have read what is at the bottom
16 of such a report and whether it says or whether it says tuberculosis, or
17 whether it says sniping wound, that is the simple question that is put to
18 you, whether such findings, whether you read them when you looked at the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read these reports, and I
21 have the English version here of whatever.
22 JUDGE ORIE: English version of what?
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document in the English
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It has nothing to do with the question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As -- just -- you have not read the outcome of the
3 autopsy reports, the post-mortems? You have no idea about what they say
4 as to the cause of death of some of the people that were exhumed in the
5 Lav grave?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read most of it, but I have 4100
7 post-mortem reports and it's hard for me to say anything now. That's why
8 I said we need to have the autopsy report here and now, because I cannot
9 speak just off the cuff.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Sir, do I understand you don't recall today whether you may have
12 at one point have known that some of the people exhumed from Lav over the
13 years may have been killed by shelling or sniping?
14 A. I don't remember, because you've just said "maybe."
15 And I'm saying "maybe" too.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Witness, I asked you whether you had ever
17 seen such conclusions at the end of post-mortem autopsy reports. Your
18 answer was: I haven't read these reports.
19 Now, one minute later, your answer is: I don't remember what the
20 content was of what I read.
21 The one is not the same as the other. Would you agree with that
22 or do you have any explanation as why you said that you hadn't read them
23 and a minute later you say you don't remember because there were too many
24 you have read.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain because you confused
1 me here with this English document that I didn't understand.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I told you that this document has nothing do with
4 the question.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Rather, listen carefully then. But we now do
7 understand that you have read the reports and that you do not exclude for
8 the possibility that at least some of the person exhumed in the grave
9 were reported as having died from shelling or sniping consequences.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 9.
12 Q. And, sir, this is a report of the United Nations commission of
13 experts from 1994. Looking at page -- at paragraph 13, the commission is
14 reporting that: "Since the beginning of the siege it is estimated that
15 nearly 10.000 persons have been killed or are missing in the city. This
16 total includes over 1.500 children."
17 Now have you become aware in the course of your work of reports
18 that, in the first two years of the siege of Sarajevo, nearly 10.000
19 persons were killed or went missing?
20 A. I heard quite a lot of information, but I see I know now that
21 this information was incorrect. If you allow me, I have testified, and
22 in my report, I even stated that the minister of foreign affairs said at
23 the UN that 250.000 people were killed, Bosniak, in 1992. And we see
24 today that that was not true. This is questionable as well.
25 To this day, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we don't know. Records of
1 missing persons have not been set up. And over here, we have some
2 figures that, quite simply, cannot be considered reliable data.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, "My report," what are you referring to
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't quite understand. Which
6 report of mine do you mean. Or it's a mistranslation. Poor
8 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "If you allow me, I have testified, and
9 in my report, I even stated that the minister of foreign affairs said at
10 the UN that," et cetera.
11 Which report are you referring to.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not report. Statement. In my
13 statement. That's it. And I still haven't got my statement here.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you -- if you ask for it, then it will be
15 provided to you. It's no problem.
16 So you were referring to your statement rather than to a report.
17 Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, this is a long document. I'd ask that
19 it be marked for identification. We'll speak with the Defence about
20 making a selection. And I won't have any further questions for this
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, document 32099 receives number
25 JUDGE ORIE: P7171 is marked for identification.
1 Mr. Lukic.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Krcmar.
4 A. Good day, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'd need P7160 on our screens.
6 Q. Yesterday my colleague Mr. Traldi put questions to you about
7 this; namely, whether you knew that the chief of the Security Services
8 Centre gave this statement on the 28th of April, 1992.
9 Do you remember today where you were on the 28th of April, 1992?
10 In which formation?
11 A. I'm afraid that I don't know. At that point in time, military
12 units, civilian police units, there was that transfer, I'm not sure of
13 the date. It was more than 20 years ago.
14 Q. At the bottom of this page, there's a reference to SOS, members
15 of SOS. However, the speech itself, is it in the present tense or is it
16 the future tense? Is something that is already happened being referred
17 to, or something that is yet to happen?
18 A. I don't know what paragraph you're talking about.
19 Q. Please take a look at this. The third paragraph in the text, in
20 bold. "Soon special detachments," and so on and so forth. Could you see
21 whether this is something that is yet to be organised or that it already
22 has been organised?
23 A. On the basis of this, it means that they will -- yes, they will
24 deal with renegades, they shall deal with renegades from different
1 Q. I don't want you to be confused by this document, so we don't
2 need it on our screens any longer.
3 Yesterday, a video was shown to you and a man is being treated
4 rather harshly, a man wearing civilian clothing in a garage. On the
5 basis of this video recording, could you conclude whether this was a
6 Serb, a Croat or a Muslim, I mean, this man who was wearing civilian
8 A. The video could not show it -- I mean, one could not conclude on
9 the basis of the video who was wearing civilian clothes.
10 Q. We saw Nenad Stevandic's insignia on his pocket. Do you remember
11 after all this time whether these markings were repeated after a while
12 and how often they would be valid?
13 A. They would be valid for two or three days, depending on the
14 assessment of the command, how long it should be worn. Sometimes it
15 would be one day; sometimes it would be five days. I don't know. I
16 cannot remember. I mean, I don't want to say I don't know. I can't
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P3711, please.
20 Q. In relation to this document, on page 32428 of our transcript,
21 lines 15 through 19, you say that the judges who had come from Zenica,
22 the prosecutor, who had come from Zenica were telling you about the unit
23 of Burce, or from Burce. It's clear to you, but for the record, you need
24 to tell us where -- where in Bosnia and Herzegovina Zenica is, and what
25 the ethnicity of this judge and this prosecutor is?
1 A. Zenica is in the Federation. The judge who was there from Zenica
2 was Mr. Hilmo Ahmetovic. The prosecutor was Redzo Delic. The police was
3 the police from Zenica. At that moment, I acted as host or monitor. I
4 followed their work, and it is only natural that we discussed the case,
5 that is to say, this crime. And they presented what they knew, and I
6 said yesterday what it was that I heard from them. That was sometime in
7 1998. 1998, I think it's 1998.
8 Q. Thank you. Again --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I have difficulties in finding it on the
10 page reference you gave, that is 32428.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... 458.
12 JUDGE ORIE: 458.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Lines 15 to 19.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please answer my question again. You are clear, but for the
17 record, what were the ethnicities of the judges, the prosecutor, and the
18 police who arrived from Zenica who told you about the Burce units?
19 A. They were all Muslims.
20 Q. Did the judge or the prosecutor from Zenica tell you how they had
21 obtained that information?
22 A. No, they didn't tell me anything about that. They only told me
23 that they had information about that and that it was the Burce group who
24 this had done it.
25 MR. LUKIC: I have probably ten more minutes and then I'll be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I take it that if this information
3 was given to the witness, it must be recorded somewhere which would
4 certainly strengthen very much the testimony of the witness. It would
5 corroborate -- so if there's any documentation available, then, of
6 course, the Chamber would very much appreciate if it would be there, so
7 that we can -- because it's -- on the basis of the testimony of yesterday
8 that there are at least on an exhumation to tell someone immediately
9 after that who was the perpetrator, of course, is not what usually
10 happens but if there is documentation confirming that, then we'd
11 certainly like to see that.
12 MR. LUKIC: We -- we tried to find yesterday, Your Honours, and
13 we did find -- we did find some mentioning of Chetniks from Burce doing
14 some crimes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But you mean not in the exhumation reports.
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't think it should and it would be in the
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there is any interview with
19 witnesses who may have been at the exhumation site. I don't know how it
20 was reported and that's exactly what I'm saying, that if there's any
21 report of that exhumation which would give support to the -- to the
22 testimony of the witness, which at least there are still a few questions
23 to be raised on the basis of what the witness could tell us, then we
24 would appreciate to see that.
25 MR. LUKIC: We'll probably have to look into the records of
2 JUDGE ORIE: For example. Or ask the assistance of the
3 Prosecution. Or seek a request from the authorities so that we would not
4 just have the testimony but it would be corroborated by documentary
5 evidence. Or any follow-up evidence.
6 We'll take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes,
7 Mr. Krcmar.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, there was a request that you address the
13 matter of the shifting of the burden of proof. Could you give us an
14 indication as to how much time would you need for that, approximately.
15 MR. TIEGER: One minute, on my part, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One minute, yes.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, we will come to an end really soon.
21 Let me ask you something about the topic that Judge Orie raised.
22 Did you perhaps note the information that you had received from the judge
23 and the prosecutor from Zenica?
24 A. No. We co-operated on a daily basis on exhumations. We
25 discussed many issues, including that one.
1 Q. Were you familiar with the results of the investigation that was
2 carried out by the Zenica District Court?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Would the judges inform you about the results of any
6 A. No. We received feedback only within the area of exhumations.
7 When it came to investigations, that was not part of our job, and we did
8 not receive information about those.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7165.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I just want to fully understand your previous
12 Are you saying that your knowledge was limited to what you
13 exchanged during the exhumations; and whether there was an investigation
14 as a follow-up, you wouldn't know anything about that. Is that how I
15 have to understand your testimony?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. You were asked about this document. My attention was drawn by
20 the fact that the document was signed by Colonel Gojko Vujnovic, the desk
21 officer for co-operation with UNPROFOR and civilian affairs.
22 My question is this: Did UNPROFOR or any other international
23 organisation such as the Red Cross take part in the exchanges at all?
24 A. Yes, they did, especially the International Red Cross. UNPROFOR
25 was also in presence or -- at all those exchanges or the transfer of
1 people from one side to the other because people did not leave prisons to
2 go directly from a prison to be exchanged. They would come from their
3 homes to cross over to the other territory and then proceed to third
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7170.
6 Q. We've already seen this document?
7 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that.
8 You are aware that you, again, yourself used the word "exchange"?
9 "... did not leave prisons to go directly from a prison to be
11 So you are talking about exchanges, as was the question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is just a terminology issue.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'll go back to that.
16 You said that people did not go directly from prisons to be
17 exchanged when you spoke about exchanges, i.e., about transfers. Did you
18 have in mind people who were in prison or those who were at home?
19 A. Those who were at home. So we cannot use the term "exchange."
20 It was a simple transfer from one territory to another.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 What we have before us is P7170, and we can see that this is a
23 document which was issued by the Main Staff. It was received on the
24 10th of June, 1993. The typed name is that of
25 Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic. It says that the --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic please read more slowly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to read more slowly.
3 Could you resume where the transcript says:
4 "It says that ..."
5 And then start your quote.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] It says: "The exodus to the Croats to the
8 territory of Republika Srpska and the surrender of HVO units to VRS units
9 should be used to force the Croatian side to unconditionally release all
10 prisoners of war from the VRS, VRSK, and the former JNA and all civilians
11 to wish to leave the Croatian-controlled parts of the former Bosnia and
13 First of all, do you know whether in 1993 there was still members
14 of the JNA in Croatian prisons.
15 A. The commission of Yugoslavia was looking for prisoners of war
16 from the JNA from Croatia. The lot of some of those people is still not
17 nope. We only knew or, rather, it was well-known that members of the JNA
18 were being held in Croatian prisons.
19 Q. As we have seen, the document was issued on the 8th of June or
20 around that date.
21 And now look -- let's look at P3683.
22 I would like to jog your memory by saying that the Trial Chamber
23 has heard evidence that Croats left Travnik on the 6th of June, 1993.
24 Here, we see a document that was issued on the 7th of June, 1993. This
25 document was also signed by Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.
1 Under 1, the title of the document is: Treatment of HVO members
2 and of the Croatian civilian population. It was sent to the command of
3 the 1st Krajina Corps. "With regard the situation that has been created
4 in the sector of Travnik, act in accordance with my verbal order which
5 has to do with the following ..."
6 Under 1, it says: "The civilian population and persons not fit
7 for combat should be transferred to the sector of Novska in Croatian
9 "An adequate number of motor vehicles should be engaged, and this
10 is to be done through the International Committee of the Red Cross."
11 Did you comply with this order, i.e., with item 1?
12 A. Precisely. We did exactly that.
13 Q. Under 2, it says: "For intelligence purposes question persons
14 fit for military service and HVO units' members (of the
15 Frankopan Brigade) and then until further notice accommodate them at
17 Do you know if that -- this was complied with and who did it?
18 A. It was within the purview of the military intelligence and
19 security service.
20 Q. When it comes to the civilians who were transferred to the
21 territory of Croatia, had there been any requests made in respect of
23 A. No, there were no conditions set. They were transferred from the
24 territory of Republika Srpska. They were accompanied by the
25 International Committee of the Red Cross, and they were handed over to
1 the Croatian side.
2 Q. Do you remember how many days were needed to do that? Did they
3 spend a night anywhere, or did they continue travelling to Croatia? Do
4 you know that?
5 A. I know that provisions were secured for those people. I went
6 there to take over prisoners of war. My other colleagues accompanied
7 those people. I believe that the journey lasted a couple of days, but
8 I'm not sure. Prisoners of war or, rather, the wounded spent over ten
9 days in the hospital in Banja Luka and then I handed them over to the
10 Croatian side without any conditions having been set. They just crossed
11 over to the Croatian side.
12 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question.
13 It also says that people should be accommodated in Manjaca. Were
14 they free to leave Manjaca as they wished?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that the HVO unit
16 would be accommodated at Manjaca and that interviews would be conducted
17 with them. Later, they were all unconditionally set free. Not for a
18 single moment they were subject of any negotiations or conversations
19 regarding an exchange.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind if you want to read it as you wish to
21 read it. But that's not what the document says. The document says:
22 "... persons fit for military service and HVO units' members ..."
23 The document is also about the civilian population. So if I ask
24 you whether people were free to leave Manjaca, yes or no, first of all,
25 what you are telling me is not an answer to my question. Second, it
1 misreads the document. If you want to do that, fine. But you should be
2 aware that it does remain unnoticed.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you know of any civilians which were detained at Manjaca?
6 A. No, there were no civilians, as far as I know. They were
7 accompanied in a different way, and they went in the direction of
9 Q. There's a reference to two categories here under item 2: Those
10 who were fit for service; and members of the Frankopan Brigade of the
12 Do you know when an agreement was reached for all the militarily
13 able-bodied and members of the Frankopan Brigade of the HVO to be
14 accommodated at Manjaca?
15 A. I know nothing about that agreement.
16 Q. Under 6 - we need the following page in English, please - it
17 says: "Within the limits of your capabilities, provide care for the
18 civilian population until they are evacuated to the territory of Croatia.
19 Conduct yourselves correctly toward the HVO members and able-bodied
20 people until their status has been resolved."
21 Do you know how the status of those people who were accommodated
22 at Manjaca was resolved?
23 A. Yes, I know. They went to Croatia. There were no negotiations
24 about any exchange, there were no conditions set, but they left after the
25 civilians. And they did not have the status of prisoners of war.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, it's not clear to me, you said:
2 "Those who were accommodated in Manjaca, they left after the
3 civilians ..."
4 But I do understand that at least part of those accommodated in
5 Manjaca were civilians?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says in the document,
7 "able-bodied men."
8 Those were members of the HVO, as far as I know. I don't know
9 that they were civilians. They were HVO members.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what the document says. I'm quite happy
11 that you interpret it in that way. But both in the paragraph that we
12 looked at and also in paragraph 4 of this document, it clearly
13 distinguishes between able-bodied persons and members of HVO units.
14 Therefore, I assume if you just call them -- if the document is
15 about civilian population, if you say the able-bodied persons should be
16 sent to Manjaca together with the HVO member units, first, that these are
17 two different categories; and, second, if someone is a soldier, I would
18 not call him an able-bodied person, I would call him a soldier.
19 I understand, but please correct me when my understanding is
20 wrong, an able-bodied person, someone who is physically fit to be a
21 soldier but not a soldier yet.
22 Have you any comment on this understanding of this terminology?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Able-bodied men can be
24 civilians, and all civilians left the territory of Republika Srpska and
25 went to Croatia within the next two days. Members of the HVO were kept
1 behind them, but they left thereafter.
2 I'm not aware of the fact that civilians were ever sent to
3 Manjaca. I and all of my colleagues were directly involved in that
4 operation with a view to helping those people.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] We have paragraph 8 - we need the next page in
8 both versions - we see number 8. It says that: "... the ill and wounded
9 should be taken care of in our medical institutions."
10 You've already testified about that, haven't you, that you took
11 part in that?
12 A. Yes. I was precisely in charge of that, that is to say of the
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are going to look at P7171 again.
15 Q. In relation to this - the document is in English - you were asked
16 about the Lav graveyard, whether you knew how people were wounded, and
17 you said, I cannot manage without autopsy reports.
18 My question: Was it easier for you to get to the mortal remains
19 of these 36 Serbs and three Muslims that were buried underneath the
20 corpses of newborn babies and other corpses? How did you get to that?
21 A. Quite simply, we could not reach any kind of agreement with the
22 federal commission. That is why the intervention of the high
23 representative was required and we had to provide lots and lots of
24 relevant evidence to persuade the Office of the High Representative and
25 the IPTF that indeed there was a grave there.
1 Q. The federal authorities, did they deny the existence of a grave
3 A. Yes, precisely. And they even carried out objections with some
4 of the family members who had family members buried there and their
5 newborn children. They were saying that we were violating their graves
6 and underneath, indeed, there was this other grave.
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krcmar. That is all we had for you.
8 A. Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness.
11 MR. TRALDI: Yes. Briefly, Mr. President.
12 Could we have, first, P7095.
13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
14 Q. Now, we see here a document from the HVO, from the military
15 intelligence service, dated the 19th of June, 1993. In the second
16 paragraph, we read that: "At the negotiations in Celebic,
17 representatives of the Serb side offers 1789 civilians from the Lasva
18 area for exchange, 500 of them children, 471 men eligible for military
19 service, which the Serbs deem to be HVO soldiers and 29 wounded HVO
20 members who are located in hospital in Banja Luka. In return, they are
21 seeking that all civilians of Serb ethnicity from Rascani (outside
22 Tomislavgrad) and Livno municipality, and others ... be released."
23 MR. TRALDI: Now if we could have P7096.
24 Q. We see that: "In accordance with the talks held in Geneva on the
25 24th of June, 1993, between the presidents of the RH and the Republic of
1 Serbia, as well as the highest representatives of the Croatian and
2 Serbian people in BiH, Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Radovan Karadzic,
3 particularly with regard to the agreement on exchange of detainees and
4 release of civilians is hereby ordered to civilian military and police
5 authorities of Livno and Tomislavgrad to ensure an unobstructed departure
6 of all members of Serbian people from the areas of these municipalities
7 (this pertains to those who wish to do so) to the territory under Serb
9 Now, you testified a moment ago that the Serb -- or, rather, the
10 Croat civilians transferred out of Central Bosnia in June 1993 were not
11 exchanged. Were you unaware of the large-scale exchange reflected in
12 these documents?
13 A. Again, there is a mistake in terms of terminology here. As we
14 can see from this document from Geneva, this meant unhindered crossing
15 over of the Serb population and then there was this other document that
16 we saw, instructions from General Mladic to help the civilian population
17 cross over. There was no exchange. It's just a question of terminology.
18 Whether it is crossing over, or whether it is an exchange. So it's just
19 the wrong terminology that is being used here.
20 Q. So if the two sides agree, we'll let your civilians cross over
21 but only if you only let our civilians cross over, in your view, that's
22 not an exchange; is that right?
23 A. These are no civilians of ours. This means rescuing the Croatian
24 people from Central Bosnia, from the Lasva river valley. They were in a
25 conflict with the Muslims. We were saving these people. Please do not
1 reduce this humanitarian endeavour to a mere exchange. This was a major
2 humanitarian effort, a humane thing to do, and I personally took part in
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 08203.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for it, could I put one very
6 short, simple question, Witness.
7 We talked a lot about Manjaca and HVO members' unit and
8 able-bodied men to be accommodated there. Were you there? Have you
9 visited Manjaca in that specific time-frame?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I had the wounded.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI: And we have now 65 ter 08203.
13 Q. I'm asking this in regard to your evidence that international
14 organisations participated in exchanges.
15 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to the last paragraph on page 2 --
16 Q. We read: "Both sides are 'releasing' civilians to the other
17 side, as well as exchanging groups of civilians, very often without
18 making available any information to UNHCR, ICRC or UNPROFOR. This is
19 thinly disguised ethnic cleansing but mostly very difficult to detect."
20 Now we see -- if we go back to the first page, that this is a
21 document coming from UNPROFOR.
22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I think that the rest of the
23 paragraph has to be read.
24 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to read the full paragraph.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Traldi will do so.
2 He is following your suggestion.
3 Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 2 back on the screen.
5 The final paragraph reads: "Both sides are releasing civilians
6 to the other side, as well as exchanging groups of civilian, very often
7 without making available any information to UNHCR, ICRC or UNPROFOR.
8 This is thinly disguised ethnic cleansing but mostly very difficult to
9 detect. At the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge in Sarajevo, groups of
10 civilians are regularly exchanged between the sides, but within the
11 agreed times of freedom of movement, when it is not possible to separate
12 civilians being exchanged from those with permission to visit the city or
14 Now my question, in regard to the evidence that you gave on
15 re-direct was simply: Were you aware that UNPROFOR had expressed
16 concerns that the exchange of civilians was thinly disguised ethnic
18 A. The text that you read out speaks of crossing over from one side
19 to the other. From the text, we do not see that people are coming from
20 prisons and that exchange is being carried out. I did not know about
21 this, what UNPROFOR said, but I want to say that this has to do with --
22 with crossing over as you read it out, not exchanges. Again I repeat,
23 it's a question of terminology. What is crossing over? What is a
24 release? What is an exchange?
25 Q. Sir, it uses the word "exchanges" at least twice, I think three
1 times in the paragraph I read to you. I'd put to you you're reluctant to
2 use the term itself because you are aware of precisely this sort of
3 allegation that the exchange of civilians was part of the machinery of
4 ethnic cleansing. That's the truth, isn't it?
5 A. Again, you are putting this wrongly and you are putting it into
6 the context of people who did highly honourable work, released people who
7 were POWs and you are projecting this as some kind of ethnic cleansing
8 machinery. I didn't know what was happening in Sarajevo. I lived in
9 Banja Luka. I worked in the zone of the 1st Krajina Corps. However,
10 what you are doing is not right and not fair.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I suppose we should have it translated
12 so I'd ask that be marked for identification.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 08203 receives number P7172.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
16 MR. TRALDI: And I have no further questions for this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, exceptionally, I would just ask this
19 witness to take off his headphones since he does not speak any --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Does the witness understand the English language?
21 I --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Since I would kindly ask Your Honour, or
1 Your Honours, to ask this witness if he knows whether the last two
2 documents shown to him, actually two -- last P documents have anything to
3 do with the operation of a transporting Croat civilians from mid-Bosnia
4 to Croatia since it is obvious that it just has to be established whether
5 since 6th of June until 19th of June anybody from this group was still in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina for these 13 days.
7 Our claim is that these two documents have nothing to do with the
8 operation this witness was involved in.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I immediately noticed when I looked at
10 this document because we are seriously looking at any document that this
11 is a document dated 20 July 1994 and I therefore, in this context, did
12 not understand Mr. Traldi to specifically address what happened in early
13 June 1993 but that he put a rather broader question to the witness and
14 so -- so, therefore, there should be no confusion that a document, of
15 course, in July 1994 is -- is not expressing or not -- not specifically
16 addressing a matter which happened in June 1993 would be only very
17 indirectly related to events going on and not specifically. That's, at
18 least, how I looked at it, but I'm looking at my colleagues whether they
19 have any different views, but you see --
20 MR. LUKIC: P7095 is from 9th June and 7096 is from 25th June.
21 Does that, according to the Prosecution, has the same meaning where they
22 presented those documents or they want to claim that those two documents
23 actually show what happened in regard of the action Mr. Krcmar took
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, a question for you.
1 MR. TRALDI: I had intended to suggest that P7095 and 7096
2 related to the exchanges. I hadn't intended to suggest that the
3 July 1994 document.
4 MR. LUKIC: Then I would kindly ask Your Honours to ask this
5 witness whether before 19 June, the transport of both civilians and
6 military men was finished and according to our witness, Kolenda Davor,
7 everything was finished long time ago, long before this date. According
8 to him, they were transported on the 12th and 13th of June, military men
9 to -- and before that, all the civilians has -- have already left
11 So if the Prosecution wants to claim this had any to do with the
12 group Mr. Krcmar took place in transporting, then we think that it's
13 misleading of evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's try to keep it also
15 procedurally on the right track. Of course, you said exceptionally,
16 Mr. Lukic, because it's not common that after the -- after the further
17 cross-examination by the Prosecution that the Defence has an other
18 opportunity to examine the witness.
19 But, Mr. Traldi, it may create clarity and, therefore, if you
20 would follow the suggestion raised by Mr. Lukic then, of course, it would
21 perhaps assist the Chamber in getting the clarity on what is a matter
22 still in dispute.
23 Are you willing to follow that suggestion?
24 MR. TRALDI: I am, and I'm also happy to have anyone else frame
25 the question if they would prefer.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think it's procedurally procedure where
2 Mr. Lukic invited you to establish further clarity that you do so.
3 MR. TRALDI: It may take -- it may take me two or three questions
4 since I don't have an exact sense of what he is looking for.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. Lukic wants this to be explored
6 whether it was completed, yes or no.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Sir, we're returning to the topic of Croats transported out of
10 Central Bosnia in June of 1993.
11 Now, first, is it your evidence that before the 12th and 13th of
12 June, all the civilians who were being transported out of that area had
13 already been transported out of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. I cannot speak about dates here. I don't remember the dates, but
15 I did take part in that.
16 Q. Here, I think I'm unsure -- given the witness's inability to
17 speak about dates, if there's any further clarification that Mr. Lukic
18 would seek.
19 MR. LUKIC: Then I would have to ask the witness to take off his
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you again take off your earphones.
22 Mr. Lukic, any further suggestions for questions.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I would -- what I would ask or I would ask you,
24 Your Honour, to ask this witness, whether the transportation of civilians
25 took more than seven days, and if the incarcerations, incarceration of
1 HVO members and able-bodied men took more than 13 days.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll ask him --
3 MR. LUKIC: If he cannot talk about the dates.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps with some more open questions, I'll ask him
5 whether he has any recollection of that.
6 Could you please put on your earphones again.
7 Witness, one more follow-up question on the civilians leaving in
8 June 1993 and those who were in -- accommodated in Manjaca finally
10 Even not knowing the dates, do you have any recollection as for
11 how long they were in Manjaca before they left the Serb-controlled
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not going to be precise, but it
14 was very soon after the civilians went out. It was seven to ten days
15 maximum. I did not take part in the transportation of these people.
16 Other colleagues took these people over, but they were there very
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now you said: "Very soon after the civilians went
19 out." What do you mean exactly by that, "the civilians went out"? Do
20 you have a date for that, or ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the month of July 1993.
22 But, really, I cannot remember the date. From Vlasic, we took them over
23 and I know that there was a bus convoy that was organised, including,
24 ambulances, and there were groups and we all had our different duties.
25 Some went to Srbac-Davor where people crossed over to Croatia, then
1 others as far as I know went somewhere towards Livno.
2 I repeat and it's not first time I am saying this: I just took
3 care of the wounded and sick people and they stayed in Banja Luka up to
4 15 days and then I drove them away as well that is the only thing can I
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you are referring to the month of July 1993.
7 We earlier looked at documents which were 8th of June, 10th of June,
8 perhaps when they were processed. You are now talking about the month of
9 July. Does that mean that it materialised only after some 20 days, or
10 was it a mistake when you referred to July 1993?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I said June. Well, maybe
12 it was a permutation.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I must admit that I'm not familiar with the word
14 "permutation." If someone could help me that's ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you again explain you said, "Well, maybe it
17 was a" -- and could you then explain what you wanted to say? That is,
18 about the confusion, June, July.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was summertime. I'm
20 afraid, really, as far as these dates are concerned that I may make a
21 mistake so if possible could be please not insist on these dates because
22 I'm going make a mistake unintentionally and unconsciously. Throughout
23 the war, I worked on exchanges every day and it is very hard for me to be
24 precise with dates after all these years, even in terms of months but I
25 know for sure that I took part in that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I didn't insist on anything. You
2 spontaneously mentioned July 1993 and that's why I asked the question.
3 But you say I'm not certain about whether it was June or July.
4 Mr. Lukic, I've tried to explore the matter. We leave it to
6 MR. LUKIC: We have documents, Your Honour. It's clear.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. Of course, if the memory of witnesses
8 is insufficiently to fully establish matters, then, of course,
9 documentary evidence - as I said before - may assist us.
10 No further questions?
11 Mr. Krcmar, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you
12 very much for coming to The Hague, which is still a long way, and for
13 having answered the many questions that were put to, both by the parties
14 and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We could start with the next witness. We'd also
19 could first take a break and the third option is that we give Mr. Tieger
20 an opportunity to make a submission of his one-minute submission on the
21 matter he announced.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: In reviewing the transcript of Thursday's session we
25 noticed an issue that might best be clarified at this time. Now the
1 context was Mr. Lukic's reference to a shifting of the burden and the
2 Trial Chamber's observations about the Defence taking time to correct
3 matters that had not been presented as evidence to the Chamber. And as
4 you'll recall at transcript page 32369, the Chamber addressed Mr. Lukic's
5 remarks and the Court quite correctly and quite clearly stated that the
6 Defence had no burden and that there had been no shift of the
7 Prosecution's burden to the Defence.
8 Then the following appears on the transcript: "The burden that
9 the Defence bears is to rebut the Prosecution's case and that's all."
10 So while the Chamber's position that the Defence has no burden
11 was quite clear, out of an abundance of caution, we thought that we
12 should bring this last passage to the Court's attention now for
13 clarification, to ensure that the record reflects that it is the
14 Prosecution's burden at all times to prove its cases beyond a reasonable
15 doubt, and the Defence has no burden of proof at any time during the
17 Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
19 We take a break, and we'll resume ten minutes past midday.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I assumed that the Defence is ready to call its next
23 witness, and the next witness will be examined by.
24 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Sasa Lukic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sasa Lukic. We're wondering when the first
1 moment would be there.
2 Welcome, Mr. Lukic, for the first time to examine the witness.
3 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And your next witness would be Milivoje Simic.
5 MR. S. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Simic, I presume.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simic, before --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
13 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
14 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Simic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
20 You find Mr. Lukic to your left, Mr. Sasa Lukic. And Mr. Lukic is a
21 member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 WITNESS: MILIVOJE SIMIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. S. Lukic:
1 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Would you please tell us your name for the record.
5 A. My name is Milivoje Simic.
6 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Ratko Mladic Defence team?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 MR. S. LUKIC: Can we have 65 ter 1D01685.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Do you see the first page of this statement?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
12 A. Yes, I do, this is my signature.
13 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we also see the last page of
14 the statement in B/C/S, i.e., in Serbian.
15 Q. Do you recognise this signature?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Is this your signature?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Has everything been accurately recorded in your statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is everything truthful and accurate?
22 A. Whatever I have stated is truthful and accurate.
23 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your
24 answers be the same?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. S. LUKIC: Your Honour, I would like to tender the witness
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 1D01685 receives number D921.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D921 is admitted, absent any objections.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. S. LUKIC: With your permission, I would like to read the
8 statement summary.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
10 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milivoje Simic spent his
11 entire career at the Doboj garrison. He remained there even after the
12 conflict broke out in the territory of BiH. As a JNA officer, on the eve
13 of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was engaged in Republic of Croatia,
14 in Banja, from 15 September 1991 to 15 May 1992, i.e., up to the moment
15 when the JNA surrendered its positions to UNPROFOR members.
16 After leaving the territory of the Republic of Croatia,
17 Witness Milivoje Simic withdrew to Doboj in Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 together with his JNA unit. When the war started, he was the commander
19 of the Doboj garrison. He witnessed artillery attacks on the town of
20 Doboj even before the decision was made to establish the Army of
21 Republika Srpska. He also witnessed attacks by Croatian forces on the
22 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 Due to the fact that the joint Croatian and Muslim forces had
24 planned to cut off the western part of Republika Srpska from its eastern
25 part through Doboj, the witness spoke to General Talic and informed him
1 about those intentions on the part of Muslim and Croatian militaries.
2 First he spoke to General Talic, and then he spoke about the same matter
3 to General Mladic and President Karadzic. After that, a decision was
4 made to embark on the breakthrough of the corridor.
5 Witness Milivoje Simic was present when General Mladic visited
6 Doboj. That happened on three or four occasions. The last time when
7 General Mladic was in Doboj, there was a meeting which was attended by
8 the witness, as well as Milan Martic, Momir Talic, and
9 General Ratko Mladic. On that occasion, General Mladic referred to the
10 killings of Muslims from Srebrenica. He said that that should not have
11 happened and also that somebody had done it unbeknownst to him and
12 without his approval.
13 Your Honour, with your permission, I would like to ask the
14 witness a few questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you.
17 Could we have paragraph 28 on English version. It's page 5 in
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, in your statement, in paragraph 28,
20 you stated that General Mladic came to Doboj on three or four occasions.
21 Did you see him every time or did you attend those meetings every time?
22 A. When the offensive, i.e., Operation Corridor started,
23 General Mladic visited the corps command, i.e., General Talic, on three
24 or four occasions. I met with him on three occasions.
25 Q. Thank you. What did the general have to tell you during those
2 A. Every time General Mladic came to Doboj, we had meetings, and
3 those meetings were really very brief. Every time he alerted us to the
4 fact that we should comply with the law during war operations, that we
5 should apply the provisions of the rules of war. He spoke to us about
6 our treatment of prisoners of war, selective targeting in order to
7 minimise the number of civilian casualties. He also told us that we
8 should be particularly mindful of women and children, and, finely, that
9 we should try and preserve the already existing settlements. The ongoing
10 theme was compliance with the Geneva Conventions, rights of civilians and
11 prisoners of war.
12 Q. Thank you, Colonel. That will be all for the time being.
13 MR. S. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... for the time
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Lukic.
16 One very short question, Witness, this meeting where you say in
17 paragraph 28 that General Mladic was talking about the events following
18 the fall of Srebrenica, do you know on what date General Mladic spoke
19 those words?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the date. It was
21 at the beginning of August 1995.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that, but I really
24 wouldn't be able to give you the exact date.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
1 Mr. Simic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You find
2 Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Sir, how long have you known General Mladic?
9 A. I first met him on 26th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka. He was the
10 commander of the Main Staff.
11 Q. Now, you begin your statement by describing your service in Doboj
12 and then in Croatia. You were a JNA officer when you served in Croatia;
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you continued to hold a post in what became the VJ during
16 your service in the VRS up until 1994; right?
17 A. Yes, as a commander.
18 Q. And you were paid by the VJ; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Eventually through the 30th Personnel Centre?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you retired in 1994; right?
23 A. In 1994 or, rather, in 1995. In 1995, I was already retired.
24 Q. Sir, I want to ask now some questions about Operational Group
1 Now, first, during your time as commander of Operational Group
2 Doboj, who was your immediate superior?
3 A. My immediate superior was the commander of the 1st Corps,
4 General Talic.
5 Q. And during the time that you served in Doboj, the Chamber's
6 received evidence that non-Serbs from Prijedor and Bosanski Novi were
7 transported out of Serb territory via Doboj. As OG Doboj commander, you
8 were aware of these large groups of people being transported through your
9 area of responsibility; right?
10 A. I personally didn't know that, but I suppose that General Talic
11 did. Because the area of responsibility was under the corps command. I
12 was a unit and an officer subordinated to him.
13 Q. And your understanding would be that as part of his job, that's
14 information he would have to know; is that right?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence that one of those
17 transports from Bosanski Novi had several thousand people on it, several
18 hundred of whom were taken off the train in Doboj and sent back.
19 Wouldn't you also have had to be aware of that since it was in your area
20 of responsibility? And in case it refreshes your recollection, that was
21 in June of 1992.
22 A. June 1992. I don't know what the date was exactly.
23 Operation Corridor started. Everything that has to do with these
24 transports, I was not informed about that. This was done by the services
25 of the 1st Krajina Corps or, rather, the Doboj centre of security
1 services. I personally did not take part. I was not informed. Quite
2 simply, that's the way it was.
3 Q. Well, let's turn to Operation Corridor briefly.
4 Now, during the summer of 1992 and particularly during
5 Operation Corridor, there was 1st Krajina Corps forward command post in
6 your area of responsibility; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That command post was first in Prnjavor and second in a place
9 called Djuge [sic] Njive; right?
10 A. Duge Njive is where I was stationed, not Prnjavor. Never
11 Prnjavor. Duge Njive, that's above Modrica.
12 Q. I understand and let me try to clarify the question. I wasn't
13 asking where you were stationed, I was asking where the 1st Krajina
14 Corps' forward command post was and there was such a forward command post
15 in your area of responsibility; right?
16 A. At Duge Njive, yes.
17 Q. And General Talic and General Kelecevic were also often present
18 there; right?
19 A. Kovacevic? I don't know about that person. Kovacevic? What was
20 his position? I don't know of him.
21 Q. Perhaps my speed was off, sir --
22 A. What time was that?
23 Q. Perhaps my speed was off. If you give me a moment, I'll re-ask
24 the question slowly.
25 General Talic and General Bosko Kelecevic were often present at
1 that forward command post during the summer of 1992; right?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Now, you would meet them regularly because they were present in
4 your area of responsibility?
5 A. Well, practically we were one command that was in charge of the
6 operations because I had units, my units, that I resubordinated to the
7 corps units in order to have this task accomplished from Doboj to Brod,
8 to the Sava river.
9 Q. And when General Mladic visited, you've said you met with him, he
10 would also visit that command post; right?
11 A. Duge Njive, yes. Duge Njive. That's where we were. That's
12 where he saw us.
13 Q. And it goes without saying, I suppose, but when you had a
14 superior officer present in your area of responsibility, you'd obviously
15 run any important decisions past them for their approval, consistent with
16 the chain of command; right?
17 A. Well, in the chain of command, I was subordinated to
18 General Talic, so everything that was done within the chain of command,
19 what was received from the Main Staff he got that. He sent it down to me
20 and I sent it down to my units. That's how it went.
21 Q. Now, turning to the corridor operation, that was carried out
22 pursuant to a directive, directive 1, issued by the Main Staff; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you a question about the purpose of that
25 operation in a moment.
1 MR. TRALDI: But first I'm go to ask Ms. Stewart to play a short
2 video-clip. We will have to play it twice because it has not been
3 pre-confirmed, and that's 65 ter 22338b.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] the second purpose of this
6 operation is to open a corridor towards Serbia. In this way, we shall
7 secure the area of the Krajinas. It is easier for me to say Krajinas
8 than the Knin Krajina and Bosanska Krajina. Thus, we shall secure the
9 necessary raw materials for industry to work, and above all, to procure
10 medicines and other essentials for children and the infirm. The third
11 aim of the operation is for us to link up with the East Bosnian Corps and
12 in co-ordination with them, to penetrate to the borders of the Serbian
13 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to join them to the Federal Republic
14 of Yugoslavia."
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. General Talic there states that among the purposes of the
17 corridor operation is to link up the 1st Krajina Corps and the
18 East Bosnia Corps, penetrate to the borders of the Serbian Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina and join them to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
20 Was that also how you understood the purposes of
21 Operation Corridor?
22 A. Yes, that's how I understood is that because Doboj was under
23 siege, blocked from all sides by the Croat/Muslim forces. We just had
24 the railroad going to Banja Luka as our only way out of there.
25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 22338b.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video receives number P7173.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P7173 is admitted.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And the establishment of that corridor linking the eastern and
6 western parts of -- of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the
7 time you were aware that was one of the strategic objectives of the
8 Bosnian Serb people that President Karadzic had set out at the 16th
9 Assembly Session; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And your Operational Group carried out operations including,
12 Operation Corridor in furtherance of those strategic objectives; right?
13 A. Part of the operations group. Most of it was securing Doboj and
14 the Serb villages. Only two of my brigade, two of my brigades of the
15 Territorial Defence, with two ^ to 2500 soldiers were included in the
16 operation at Doboj, Plemen, Derventa, Brod, within Tactical Group 3 that
17 was commanded by Colonel Slavko Lisica.
18 Q. Just to make sure that the record is clear as to my question.
19 Units within your operation group carried out operations
20 including Operation Corridor in furtherance of the strategic objectives;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now you've mentioned Tactical Group 3 under Colonel Lisica. In
24 the summer of 1992 there were four tactical groups within Operational
25 Group Doboj; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The commander of tactical group was --
3 A. The zone of the corps, yes, yes.
4 Q. The commander of Tactical Group 1?
5 A. Slavko Lisica 3, 3. 1, Novica Simic.
6 Q. 4, Radmilo Zeljaja?
7 A. His task was to prevent an attack from the Croat/Muslim forces
8 from the direction of Gradacac, so that they would not hit us from the
9 back or on the flanks.
10 Q. Now, those three men were all VRS officers; right?
11 A. At that time, yes, and they belonged to the units of the 1st
12 Krajina Corps.
13 Q. Who was the commander of Tactical Group 2?
14 A. Tactical Group 2, it was Milan Martic. Within the operations of
15 the corps, it was included in Tactical Group 2.
16 Q. Now he was included in Tactical Group 2. Was the commander of
17 that group at some point actually Mile Novakovic?
18 A. Yes. Colonel Mile Novakovic.
19 Q. And which army was he in at the time?
20 A. At that moment, it was the Army of the Serb Krajina. I mean,
21 Martic's police. That's what it was called at the time.
22 Q. And the tactical groups included, along with VRS forces, forces
23 from the police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, forces from the Army
24 of Republic of Serbian Krajina and RS MUP forces including forces from
25 the Doboj CSB; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And during the course of the corridor operation, those forces
3 were under the unified command of the VRS; right?
4 A. Yes, General Talic, the corps command.
5 Q. Now, I left one group out. There were also units fighting in
6 Doboj and elsewhere in the Posavina corridor which had been trained,
7 equipped and were paid by the Serbian DB; right?
8 A. I don't know about that.
9 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 32067.
10 Q. As it comes up, do you remember units that were known as
11 Red Berets being present in your zone of operations in the summer of
13 A. Yes. They were in Doboj, but not at the corridor.
14 Q. And in Doboj, there's a payroll list for the Ministry of Interior
15 Security Services Centre Doboj. We see, for instance, at number 1, a man
16 named Radojica Bozovic. And you knew him, in fact, to be from Serbia,
17 didn't you? Or when I say "from Serbia," I should say to be employed by
18 the Serbian DB; right?
19 A. I met him, I know.
20 Q. And did you know that he was employed by the Serbian DB?
21 A. I did know that.
22 Q. And you were aware that his and other Red Berets units were
23 active in your zone of operations; right?
24 A. Yes, for a while. They just created difficulties for us. We got
25 rid of them very quickly in an organised manner. We didn't need the
1 likes of them.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender this document.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 32067 receives number P7174.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Now one more point on your positions, sir. At one point, you
8 became a member of the Doboj War Presidency; right.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32156.
11 Q. And in the top right corner of the page in B/C/S, we see an
12 article entitled: "We all have a joint task." And at the top of the
13 article, we see a reference to one of the people who's made it possible
14 for the Serbian people in the Serbian municipality of Doboj to celebrate
15 their first anniversary in a Serbian state, a Colonel Milivoje Simic. So
16 this is an article about you; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I want to look at your response to the third question, and in
19 the B/C/S it's the middle of the right column immediately below your
20 picture, I believe. Above and below.
21 And you note that: "I don't think that military and civilian
22 tasks can be separated from each other in this war. We all have a joint
23 task and that is how we are carrying [sic] out."
24 And that reflects your understanding of the co-operation between
25 the VRS and the Bosnian Serb civilian authorities at that time; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now at the end of the article you note that the corps commander
3 for civilian sector had tasked you with directly helping local government
4 organs. Now you're referring to the assistant commander for civilian
5 affairs, Colonel Gojko Vujinovic; correct?
6 A. Civilian, yes. Yes.
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender this interview.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 32156 receives number P7175.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. I'm still trying to
11 find your last quote at the end of the article. Is this still on the
12 page we have on our screen?
13 MR. TRALDI: It -- it's not. Not in the English.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yep, I see that it's on the -- apparently on
15 the second page.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. I want to turn now, sir, to some of the groups you describe in
19 your statement as paramilitaries.
20 You mention Slobodan Karagic's unit. Now, Mr. Karagic was a
21 member of the special unit of CSB Doboj; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You mention Preda Kujundzic, in fact that was Predrag Kujundzic;
25 A. Yes, I know him, yes.
1 Q. And he was also a worker for CSB Doboj; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32062.
4 Q. Now, this is an Official Note coming from the National Security
5 Service Sector of CSB Banja Luka. And we see an information at the
6 beginning that Predrag Kujundzic, a worker of the CSB Doboj, acquired for
7 himself and his group, by means of loot, around 70 kilograms of gold in
8 jewellery, that he had appropriated for himself a large quantity of
9 foreign money. And that: "In the course of the cleansing of the village
10 of Civcije, the municipality of Doboj, his group handed 350,000 German
11 marks to him which he did not forward to the appropriate institutions."
12 Were you aware that Mr. Kujundzic's group was involved in
13 large-scale looting in your area of responsibility?
14 A. I didn't know about these details and these quantities, but I
15 know what he was doing, and I cautioned Andrija Bjelosevic specifically
16 at the centre in Doboj that he should take care of his men because people
17 were complaining. They were not very selective. They were looting Serb
18 houses and apartments just like Croat and Muslim ones. That I know.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Kujundzic after the war was convicted of crimes in
20 Bosnia committed against non-Serbs in the Doboj municipality in
21 July 1992; right?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And we saw here a reference to the cleansing of the village of
24 Civcije. You're aware, aren't you, that in the summer of 1992, Muslims
25 from Civcije were taken away to detention facilities including a place
1 called Percin's disco; right?
2 A. The Doboj Centre for Security Services was engaged in that. We
3 were in our offensive at that point in time. We didn't deal with any of
4 that. I was not informed to what degree but I just know that men from
5 the village of Civcije as our civilian police or, rather, the centre of
6 the security services, they barged in, they arrested the people from
7 there, but where they took them, I don't know.
8 Q. And you're ware that Muslim houses in Civcije and the mosque
9 there were destroyed; right?
10 A. The mosque, yes. Serb houses were not. I mean, the houses were
11 not. Because Serb refugees from elsewhere, from Ozren, et cetera later
12 came to live in these houses, but the mosque had been destroyed, yes.
13 MR. TRALDI: I tender 65 ter 32062, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I see that the title is not fully
15 translated. It says: National Security Service Sector. But Banja Luka
16 is not in the title in the English version, and you referred to it as
17 under the title which we find in the B/C/S.
18 Could you have the translation be verified.
19 At the same time, Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at you, if that would be
20 the only issue, then I would not, at this moment, deny admission, but it
21 certainly should be checked.
22 What you could do is to check it, whether everything else
23 translated and if so we either leave it that's it -- on the record that
24 the words "Banja Luka" are missing or you provide a new translation if
25 there's more.
1 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll check it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7176.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence with the caveat as I
5 expressed before.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. You also refer in your statement to one paramilitary unit which
9 you say was of considerable strength from Prnjavor. The commander of
10 that unit was Veljko Milankovic; right?
11 A. The Prnjavor Brigade participated in Operation Corridor, but
12 Milankovic never came to Doboj. He was engaged on the axis starting with
13 Modrica. I personally saw him in Duge Njive, which was the corps command
14 post. He was in charge of a group, a paramilitary formation, that is,
15 and together with the units it was engaged, but I don't know what its
16 task was.
17 Q. And that unit also committed crimes, including looting, during
18 the summer of 1992; right?
19 A. As far as I know, yes. From what I could learn, the answer would
20 be yes.
21 Q. And Milankovic, by the start of the corridor operation, was, in
22 fact, a battalion commander in the 327th Motorised Brigade of the VRS,
23 wasn't he?
24 A. Believe me, I don't know. I know that he was more independent
25 than a member of a brigade.
1 MR. TRALDI: Well, can we have P3826.
2 Q. Now, this is an order signed by General Talic on the 5th of June,
3 1992. And we see at point 1 that a battalion from the
4 Prnjavor Territorial Defence Command is being transferred to the Command
5 of the 327th Motorised Brigade and fully incorporated into it, and that
6 General Talic is appointing Lieutenant Veljko Milankovic as battalion
7 commander. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Milankovic
8 was, during the corridor operations, a battalion commander in the VRS?
9 A. Yes. I don't know whether his unit was a battalion. It was a
10 somewhat larger group, and they did whatever they wanted to do.
11 Q. And the stamp we see on this document, this is the
12 Operational Group Doboj stamp; right?
13 A. Operational Group Doboj, yes.
14 Q. Can you explain for us the meaning of the symbol that we see in
15 the centre of the stamp.
16 A. These are four Ss. Those are usually the markings found on the
17 Serbian coat of arms. The four Ss. I know that that was the name of
18 this symbol.
19 Q. And culturally, it's a Serb nationalist symbol; right?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. What do the four Ss stand for? They're an abbreviation; right?
22 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you. These are just the four
23 Ss depicted on the Serbian flag and those who made stamps also
24 incorporated them into the stamps, but I really wouldn't be in a position
25 to tell you what that means.
1 Q. Now, you were aware, you said a moment ago --
2 MR. TRALDI: And now, Your Honour, I was about to turn to a
3 slightly different topic. I saw one of the Judges might have had a
4 question and so I was stopping to provide an opportunity.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't. I was just communicating with my
6 colleague here.
7 MR. TRALDI: I'm terribly sorry, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: No problem.
9 JUDGE ORIE: This document is, let me just have a look, is
10 tendered, is admitted already.
11 Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you were aware that Milankovic's unit
14 committed crimes including looting you were also aware of that during the
15 summer of 1992; right?
16 A. As the operation progressed, he often went to Prnjavor which was
17 his own area. He returned. He was subordinated to the corps command and
18 he reported to General Kelecevic, Bosko Kelecevic, who was the Chief of
19 Staff of the 1st Corps. Kelecevic commanded him, he gave him tasks, I
20 can tell you that because I know it.
21 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play one more --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we receive an answer to the question.
24 The question was whether you were aware of Milankovic's unit
25 committing crimes, including looting, during the summer of 1992.
1 Can you please answer whether you were aware of that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew some things but not the
3 details. I was not authorised to know any details. He was incorporated
4 into the corps unit on the order of the corps commander. I did not
5 receive reports from him. I had my own tasks. He didn't report to me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that still does not exclude for the
7 possibility that you know something about it. Witness, you'll hear me --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of some things, but not
9 of any details. Only the person to whom he reported was aware of those.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But if you say, "Of some things," that would include
11 criminal activities, including looting?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some of that, yes. When we
13 spoke to Kelecevic, we learned that wherever he was with his group, there
14 were problems, that those things should be presented, that he should be
15 chased away. Such proposals were heard in conversations with Kelecevic
16 and the corps commander.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Now, in fact, the Chamber has received evidence that Milankovic
20 was - although posthumously - decorated by the 1st Krajina Corps command.
21 That's the truth, isn't it?
22 A. I really don't know that. I don't know that he was decorated,
23 when and why. And where. I don't know.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I see we're close to time for the
25 break. I'm about to turn to a slightly different matter and so I'd
1 recommend that we take it now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break now.
3 Mr. Simic, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you back
4 after -- yes, it's a bit confusing for you who is addressing because you
5 hear it all through an interpreter but it's the Presiding Judge now who
6 is speaking to you.
7 We'll take a break, and we'll resume in 20 minutes. We'd then
8 like to see you back. You may follow the usher.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 1.30.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
15 Mr. Traldi, you have already any document on your mind which ...
16 MR. TRALDI: I hate to waste time. I am going to ask Ms. Stewart
17 to play another clip and I suppose we could do the first run-through for
18 CLSS ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's wait for a second so that gives
20 the witness an opportunity to look at it twice, which ...
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: And, just to clarify what I said before the break,
24 I'm actually going to stick to a very similar matter for one more clip
25 and if I could ask Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22663a.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Momcilo Krajisnik, master of arts,
3 president of the national Assembly of Republika Srpska and candidate of
4 the SDS for the member of the Presidency of the union addressed those
5 gathered at the fifth anniversary of the renowned unit Vukovi sa
7 "You Vukovi sa Vucijaka who are present here today in civilian
8 clothes rather than in uniforms, you belong to this area as much as you
9 belong to people of Dalmatia, Lika, Western Slavonia, Posavina. Your war
10 path is difficult but glorious. Since 1991, when you lit the torch of
11 freedom defending the people of the Serbian Krajina, you went through all
12 theatres of war and participated in many combats in Republika Srpska and
13 the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Both your friends and enemies will
14 remember your heroism. You and your legendary commander,
15 Veljko Milankovic are history's favourites. I have no doubt ... I have
16 no doubt that children in schools, and especially military school cadets,
17 will ask themselves when studying about our combat - what were they like?
18 What -- which formation did Vukovi sa Vucijaka belong to? The response
19 will be: It was the unit every army in the world would be proud of.
20 Your deeds are immortal because each of were worth two men. In other
21 words, we can simply say: You belonged to the entire Serbian people."
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Now, I have just a couple of simple questions with you about that
25 First, Mr. Krajisnik refers to the fifth anniversary of
1 Milankovic's units, that places these remarks after the war; right?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. By that point, Milankovic's unit's involvement in the crimes that
4 you mentioned, crimes including looting, was well-known, wasn't it?
5 A. I know something about that, but not everything. Like most of
6 the people, so ... yes.
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender that clip.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 22663a receives number P7177.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P7177 is admitted.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, during the summer of 1992, you were also directly informed
13 about crimes being committed by members of Serb forces in your area of
14 responsibility; right?
15 A. No, not me directly. Perhaps General Talic. My main areas were
16 Doboj and Teslic, and my two units were attached to the corps unit, but,
17 as such, they were the responsibility of the corps command.
18 Q. Now, you've suggested that you had command over a limited number
19 of the units within Operational Group Doboj a couple of times now. Was
20 it that the 1st Krajina Corps Command, General Talic and
21 General Kelecevic was exercising direct command --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Wait for the end of the question.
24 Was the 1st Krajina Corps exercising direct control over the
25 other units within what was formally Operational Group Doboj.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Well, you said a moment ago you suggested you had two units which
3 were attached to the corps unit. You testified earlier that
4 Operational Group Doboj had four tactical groups. Those four tactical
5 groups, they were under your command; right?
6 A. No. Corps command had four tactical groups that were under its
7 command. My two brigades were elements of TG3. Colonel Lisica was the
8 commander. They were considered to be a corps unit participating in the
9 breakthrough of the corridor. That would be that.
10 Q. I'm going look at the two municipalities that you referred to a
11 moment ago as your main area, Doboj and Teslic.
12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32065. And this will relate to
14 Q. And we see a communication from the Ministry of the Interior,
15 Security Services Centre, Doboj. We see it comes from
16 Chief Andrija Bjelosevic and we see the last of the addressees, the
17 commander of the Operational Group Colonel Milivoje Simic. That's you;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And under the subject line we read: "We have been dissatisfied
21 for quite a long time with the security situation in our region and
22 especially in Doboj municipality. There is an increasing incidence of
23 murder, looting, export of vehicles and Muslims and Ustashas departing
24 for Serbia ..."
25 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were
1 directly informed of crimes being committed by members of Serb forces in
2 your area of responsibility during 1992?
3 A. That was done by paramilitary formations and forces of the public
4 security centre. There were some renegade groups there as well. They
5 were not under anybody's command.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm speaking. Could you please answer the question
7 rather to elaborate on. The question was about whether you were directly
8 informed about these crimes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi is asking this because he sees that you
11 are one of the addressees and whereas this letter, this document,
12 describes those crimes. So, therefore, he was seeking confirmation that
13 you would be directly informed.
14 But could you explain, considering this letter, why you say you
15 were not directly informed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was on the 23rd of September,
17 1992. Perhaps that. In the month of September. That was almost the end
18 of Operation Corridor. I was not in Doboj. He informed me about
19 everything, but that was on the 23rd of September. He informed me about
20 certain things that he was supposed to deal with. They were the ones who
21 arrested people, brought them in, forwarded them for trials. The command
22 did not have anything to do with that, as command.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Two more questions about this document.
1 At the end of the paragraph, Chief Bjelosevic refers to Muslims
2 and Ustashas departing to Serbia.
3 By Ustasha, he means ethnic Croats, doesn't he?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And, second, they were leaving because of the crimes that he's
6 describing, which were being perpetrated against them, weren't they?
7 A. Probably, yes.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tendered 65 ter 32065.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32065 receives number P7178.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P7178 is admitted.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. I'm going to ask briefly now about one other municipality, Odzak.
14 That was also part of this same corridor operation; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. TRALDI: And I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip
17 65 ter 22338c.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You're going to play it twice, Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: We are. And I apologise for not stating that
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] was mainly inhabited by Croats, I
23 say was, as this is now a ghost town. There are still fresh traces of
24 fighting. But why was the war fought for this town? It's only now
25 apparent that the local Croats had prepared to settle scores with their
1 neighbours a long time before the conflict erupted. Immediately after
2 the civil war began, strong Croatian forces were concentrated here.
3 Serbs were brought from the neighbouring towns of Novi Grad, Modrica and
4 Novo Selo. A really concentration camp was formed here on the football
5 pitch, and all this in a place where people had once lived well and in
6 prosperity in and from the old Yugoslavia. It is obvious that there was
7 to desire here for peaceful life, on the contrary.
8 "General Ratko Mladic: Since they didn't want this but instead
9 attacked us, attempted to destroy and burn the Serbian population, you
10 yourself can see how they fared. Here we are in a place where I found
11 myself for the first time. This is an entire town where people
12 prospered, where the former Yugoslavia gave them much more than all of us
13 put together. I belonged to a category which some might say was
14 privileged because I was an officer, and, of course, better paid.
15 However, I could only dream of what people had here. The Socialist
16 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia gave everything to these people. They
17 converted their houses into bunkers, shelters, underground casemates and
18 torture Chambers for Serbs.
19 "Reporter: It is down to these people that Odzak which they have
20 made into a town of evil, today looks so sad and empty."
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Sir, we heard in that video Odzak describes as a ghost town and
23 as looking sad and empty. Odzak was, as the reporter said, mainly
24 inhabited by ethnic Croats before the war; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that thousands of people fled after
2 the VRS attacked it, leaving the town looking, as it was described there,
3 sad and empty; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22338c.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video receives number P7179.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7179 is admitted.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Now, you mentioned General Mladic visited several times during
11 the corridor operation. One of those was that he was in Duge Njive on
12 16th of July, 1992; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, I'm going to turn away from that subject and turn to another
15 of the municipalities you mentioned, Teslic.
16 Now the Chamber has received evidence that you deployed some of
17 your subordinates, including Captain Ljubisa Petricevic and
18 Major Jovo Popovic to Teslic around the 1st of June, 1992; right?
19 A. I'm not familiar this event. Petricevic was chief of the
20 Ministry of Defence in Doboj. This is civilian authority. He was not
21 subordinated to me. I was not his superior. I could not give him
22 orders, despite what it says in the report.
23 Q. Do you recall Ranko Sljuka, Zoran Sljuka, Dario Slavuljica, and
24 Miroslav Pijunovic as having been among your subordinates?
25 A. They were not my subordinates, no. I don't know whose
1 subordinates they were, but they were certainly not mine.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, before the next question I ask -- I'd
3 suggest the witness be advised of his rights under Rule 90(E).
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the Prosecution has asked me to give you
5 a -- to inform you about Rule 90(E) -- and it's me, Presiding Judge, who
6 is addressing you at this moment. I'll read Rule 90(E) to you:
7 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
8 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
9 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
10 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
11 offence other than false testimony."
12 Which means that if you think that a truthful answer to any
13 question Mr. Traldi will put to you - or anyone else - would tend to
14 incriminate yourself, you may address me and ask to be relieved from your
15 duty to answer that question. We'll then consider that.
16 Is that clear to you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Do you recall at any time in 1992 asking to have your
21 subordinates, including the men I just mentioned, released after they'd
22 been arrested for a crime so that they could be send back to the front?
23 A. Is there a document to that effect? I don't remember that I ever
24 requested that.
25 Those men were not members of the brigade which was under Doboj
1 OG. They were probably members of the public security centre in Doboj.
2 I don't remember. If there is a document, could you please show it to
4 Q. I'll use a series of documents just so that we get through in
5 some detail.
6 MR. TRALDI: Let's start with 65 ter 32048.
7 Q. Now, this is a report on initiating criminal proceedings against
8 members of the military police at the Security Services Centre in Doboj.
9 And problems relating to the actions of judicial organs. You see it's
10 from the office of the public prosecutor in Teslic and addressees include
11 the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Interior, and the Ministry of
12 National Defence.
13 And we see a reference in the first paragraph to a criminal
14 report, the office of the public prosecutor received against a number of
15 persons, including Slobodan Karagic, and the men that we just discussed.
16 Now, scrolling down to the bottom of the first paragraph, bottom
17 at the page in English, the document says the Office of the Public
18 Prosecutor received a report against them for crimes, including robbery,
19 extortion, aggravated theft, and murder.
20 And if we turn to page 2 in the English, at point 2, we read that
21 on the 10th of July, the Office of the Public Prosecutor in Teslic filed
22 a request to initiate an investigation against these reported persons on
23 the suspicion that they had committed the crimes of illegal arrest,
24 robbery, and extortion, and for some of them, also the crimes of
25 aggravated theft and murder.
1 Are you familiar with this case?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, one second, please.
5 The interpreters have difficulties in hearing you because you
6 your microphone is not adjusted. Yes.
7 Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was written on the
9 28th of July. I don't know who this was sent to. This information, as
10 far as I can remember, and my memory serves me well, I did not receive
11 this information, and I couldn't have known about this. This was done by
12 the CSB Doboj because they had within their jurisdiction Teslic, the CSB
13 Teslic. They worked on the basis of their laws. I don't know about
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. So it's your evidence you never heard about this case?
17 A. I did not know, no. Now was this sent to my name or the command?
18 I don't know. Does this information contain information about who this
19 was sent to? I cannot see this from this document.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness's
21 microphone please be adjusted. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you also answer the last question
23 that was put to you by Mr. Traldi. Whether it is your evidence that you
24 never heard about this case, irrespective of whether this was sent to you
25 or not, but did you ever hear about this case?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: Could we please have 65 ter 32049.
4 Q. Now, we see here this is headed:
5 "Doboj Operations Group Command, identified as to the Teslic
6 public prosecutor's office, to the Teslic lower court, and subject
7 Dario Slavuljica, request for release."
8 Now, that's one of the men in the document we just looked at.
9 In the first paragraph here, we see he is identified as a
10 soldier, serving compulsory military service as a member of military
12 In the second paragraph, we read that: "Based on what we have
13 been told, it may be deduced that Dario Slavuljica acted as a member of
14 the military police unit and that he carried out orders issued by his
15 superior officer who has been charged with the alleged acts."
16 Turning to page 2, we see - and I'll give it a minute for the
17 B/C/S - we see the stamp. That's, again, the stamp of Operation Group
18 Doboj; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And whose name does this document bear?
21 A. Mine.
22 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Whose is it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it yours?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were, in
4 fact, familiar with this particular case?
5 A. Well, since I signed it - and that was probably 19 years ago - I
6 was probably aware of it.
7 As for the future fate of this case, I don't know about that.
8 MR. TRALDI: Let's turn back to the previous page in the English
9 at the bottom, and actually the previous page in the B/C/S as well; also
10 at the bottom.
11 Q. We read that you write: "We wish to underline that no one has
12 the right to gamble with the destiny of a Serbian fighter who honourably
13 carried out his military duties in the struggle for liberation of Serbian
14 territories from various paramilitary units."
15 Now, taken together with the rest of this document, does that
16 refresh your recollection as to whether Mr. Slavuljica was one of your
18 A. If I remembered, I would know what position he held. If he did
19 hold a position. In the command of the operations group, Slavuljica was
20 not there, no.
21 Q. Looking at the top paragraph currently on our screen in the
22 English and the paragraph beginning with: "Dana 21.5.1992" in the B/C/S,
23 we read: "His one-year military service term expired on 21 May 1992. In
24 order to serve additional three months, he managed to get across from
25 Mostar to Doboj add midst combat operations and place himself at the
1 disposal of the Serbian Army of BH, under the command of this operations
3 Now, it's quite clear that at the time you were saying that
4 Mr. Slavuljica was under your command. That's the truth, isn't it?
5 A. It's the truth according to the document that he is a soldier.
6 Now where he was deployed which brigade, which battalion, he wasn't at
7 the command, and I was carrying out tasks related to Operation Corridor.
8 If I signed this - and I did sign it - but I do not remember him as a
9 soldier, so I cannot say that's the man, and I cannot say where he was
10 sent and what he did.
11 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32052.
12 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that --
13 In the letter, Mr. Simic, a lot is said about the father of this
14 Mr. Slavuljica. Where did you get that knowledge from, who his father
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this day, I don't know who his
17 father would be.
18 As for this document here that is stamped and verified, that's
19 not my signature, and I don't know whose signature it is.
20 JUDGE ORIE, Well, I'm referring you to the previous document
21 where you said you did sign it. Which explains the position of the
22 father and I'm addressing you, Witness, I -- explaining the position of
23 his father. Where did you get that knowledge from? Previous document,
24 not this one which is on the screen now.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever it was that wrote the
1 document probably did know, and I signed it, trusting the person who
2 wrote it up. I'm telling you now that I did not know his father. I do
3 not know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Now we see here this document, again it bears your name in the
8 Operational Group Doboj stamp. It's entitled, "Release of military
9 personnel from detention." And it says: "Your court has ordered an
10 investigation of military personnel from our unit ..."
11 And it lists a number of men, including Ranko Sljuka, Zoran
12 Sljuka, Dario Slavuljica, and some others. We read: "Since the
13 above-named have been questioned, and in view of the fact that extensive
14 combat operations are in progress in the area of Doboj, Teslic and Tesanj
15 municipalities, we request that these members of the military be released
16 immediately in order to take part in these operations."
17 Now does that, again, refresh your recollection as to whether the
18 men I asked you about were members of Operational Group Doboj?
19 A. They are members of the army but members of the operations group
20 or some brigade. I'm looking at this other document. This is not my
21 signature. This is a forged signature. The 17th of July, 1992.
22 Q. We see this document bears twice the Operational Group Doboj
23 stamp that you've recognised; right?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Who had access to that stamp?
1 A. The operative organ that kept it in the command of the operations
2 group, but this is obviously a forgery, a forgery of my signature. And,
3 therefore, I am unfamiliar with that concrete situation and this man who
4 is in question.
5 MR. TRALDI: Let's look at 65 ter 32055 quickly. And that will
6 be the last document I show today.
7 Q. Now this a ruling from the Teslic lower court dated 21st of July,
8 1992. And it -- it lists the accused. Many of the names are the same as
9 the ones we have been discussing.
10 And under the word ruling, we read: "Detention is hereby
11 cancelled," and it refers to a number of the accused for whom
12 cancellation of detention was requested.
13 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2. Both languages. Under
14 statements of reasons. The English at the bottom. And, I'm sorry, we
15 need to have the very bottom of page one in the B/C/S.
16 Q. We see a reference to a letter dated the 17th of July, 1992 from
17 the Doboj operations Group requesting that the men we've been discussing
18 be released immediately, since they were members of the military and were
19 needed to take part in war operations.
20 Now, that refers to the letter we just looked at; right?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And turning to page 3 now in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S,
23 in the next-to-last paragraph, we read the investigating judge's finding.
24 He notes that: "The majority of the questioned individuals gave
25 statements in which they confessed to the crimes, that the court
1 established that the basis for ordering detention no longer existed, that
2 the court particularly appraised the request put forward by the said
3 military command in the context of time and prevailing circumstances and
4 deduced that following the essential investigation, the accused would be
5 subordinated to the said command and would therefore not be able to
6 impact the criminal proceedings."
7 So basically, the Teslic court is agreeing that these soldiers
8 are needed to fight the war and so they should be released from custody;
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, lest I forget I'd tender three of the
12 four documents on this. Those are 65 ter 32048.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours the number would be P7180.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
16 MR. TRALDI: 32049.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P7181.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
20 MR. TRALDI: And 32055.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The numbering would be P7182.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
24 MR. TRALDI: As to the one where the witness didn't recognise his
25 signature, we'll look into it further and I'll -- I may make further
1 submissions. I'm happy to have it marked for identification if the
2 Chamber finds that simplest but I'm in your hands.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's appropriate to do because the witness
4 commented on the document so, therefore, it should be on the record
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32052 will receive number P7183.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
9 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day. You may follow the usher but
10 not until after I have instructed you -- one second. One second.
11 Witness. Could the witness put his earphones on again.
12 Mr. Simic, before you leave the courtroom, I instruct you - and
13 it's the Presiding Judge who is addressing you at this moment - I
14 instruct you that -- yes. I instruct you that you should not speak or
15 communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether
16 that is testimony you have begin today, or whether that's testimony still
17 due to be given tomorrow.
18 If that is clear, we'd like to see you back at 9.30 tomorrow
19 mourning in this same courtroom.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that, and it is clear
21 to me.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may now follow the usher.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, before we adjourn ...
25 Yes, we adjourn for the day. Mr. Traldi how much time would you
1 still need tomorrow.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 MR. TRALDI: I'd be able to be more specific in the morning, I
4 think, but for practical purposes, less than half an hour for my
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at how much time you used until
8 Mr. Lukic, what do you anticipate you would need for
10 MR. S. LUKIC: Maybe ten, 15 minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.
12 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
13 4th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of
16 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.