Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32651

 1                           Thursday, 5 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             There are a few matters, very limited -- yes, first I should

 8     invite Madam Registrar to call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             I'd first like to briefly put on the record a matter that remains

13     from yesterday; that is, the line in the statement of the present

14     witness, paragraph 12.  We noticed yesterday that, at least for outsiders

15     it was visible, that the words "Konjevic Polje" were missing in the

16     English translation.

17             We asked to start with -- with CLSS to it is whether there was

18     anything more than just that "Konjevic Polje" was mentioned as where the

19     witness was certain that he did not see Momir Nikolic on the

20     13th of July, and indeed it doesn't say any more.  So therefore, although

21     this is not new translation, but we were informed that the English

22     translation of that second sentence of paragraph 12 should read:

23             "What I am completely certain of is that on that day, the 13th of

24     July, in Konjevic Polje I did not see Momir Nikolic, whom I knew very

25     well personally."

Page 32652

 1             So that at least that we don't have to guess what role

 2     Konjevic Polje plays in the English translation.

 3             Then one other matter is about the possible video-conference link

 4     testimony for Ratko Skrbic.

 5             On the 16th of February, the Chamber invited the Defence to

 6     postpone the testimony of Ratko Skrbic until it was in a position to

 7     advise the Chamber whether or not it intended to put additional questions

 8     to the witness and whether or not there would be a related request for

 9     video-conference link testimony.

10             The Chamber notes that Skrbic has since reappeared on the Defence

11     schedule, but the Chamber still has not been informed about these issues.

12     And therefore in the absence of additional information from the Defence,

13     the Chamber understands that there will be no further questions, apart

14     from the attestation, and no cross-examination, and accordingly Skrbic

15     can be added to the existing scheduled video-conference link.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session, briefly.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32653

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Perhaps we could deal with one other matter, which is about

10     Exhibit P7019.

11             On the 17th of December of last year, the Prosecution e-mailed

12     the Chamber and the Defence stating that it had received a more legible

13     version of P7019.  This version, along with its English translation, has

14     been uploaded into e-court.

15             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace P7019 with

16     the revised version uploaded under 65 ter number 06444a.

17             Further, the Registry is instructed to inform the Chamber and the

18     parties when the replacement has been made, and for the parties to make

19     any additional submissions within regard to admission within seven days

20     of this date.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Blagojevic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you

25     are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning

Page 32654

 1     of your testimony.  Mr. Gillett will now continue his cross-examination.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President, and Your Honours.

 4                           WITNESS:  MLADEN BLAGOJEVIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Blagojevic.  Yesterday --

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   Yesterday at the end of the day we were speaking about the events

10     at the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac on 14 July.  Now, that day, Muslim

11     prisoners were taken out from the school and put on buses; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   As the prisoners were being taken out of the school and put on

14     the buses, some of them were beaten and abused; right?

15        A.   Well, no.  People were hurried to get onto the bus more quickly.

16        Q.   RS police members were beating and abusing these Muslim prisoners

17     as they were getting on the buses; correct?

18        A.   I'm telling you -- perhaps someone was pushed to hurry them to

19     get onto the bus, but there was civilian police and the army there.

20        Q.   One of the police officers that was doing this was Sreten Micic;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And Sreten Micic was participating in beating the prisoners as

24     they were being put on the buses; right?

25        A.   No.  He was pushing people onto the bus to hurry them up.

Page 32655

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 32111, page 20, on the

 2     monitor.  And this is the investigative report that I've referred to

 3     several times during the cross-examination.  Now, if we go to the

 4     second-last paragraph, and again the B/C/S should be at the same position

 5     as the English.

 6        Q.   It states:

 7             "Blagojevic was asked if he saw any of the prisoners in the buses

 8     or in the school being beaten or abused and he replied, 'yes,' that at

 9     the entrance to the school, as the prisoners were being taken out of the

10     school and placed on the buses, he observed that the civilian police were

11     beating and abusing the prisoners.  He identified one of the police

12     officers doing this as Sreten Micic."

13             Mr. Blagojevic, that's correct, isn't it, that prisoners were

14     being beaten and abused as they were taken from the school and put on the

15     buses?

16        A.   I'm telling you again:  People were pushed onto the bus because,

17     as they were coming out of the school, they were hurried to get onto the

18     bus as quickly as possible.  There was shouting and there was pushing to

19     get them onto the bus.

20        Q.   Mr. Blagojevic, some Muslim prisoners were killed outside the

21     Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac on 14 July; correct?

22        A.   That happened -- I mean, the shooting was behind the school.

23        Q.   You saw some of the prisoners being killed, didn't you?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 32112.  This is the

Page 32656

 1     transcript of the videoed interview that we looked at yesterday as well.

 2     And if we could go to page 82 of that.

 3        Q.   Now, if we look at the third intervention from the bottom, the

 4     question is asked:

 5             "Okay.  You say the next morning that there were ... that some

 6     prisoners were killed outside the school.  Explain to me what happened

 7     with that?"

 8             MR. GILLETT:  If we skip across to the next page.

 9        Q.   "A. They were killed behind the school towards the hangar."

10             "Q.  What happened?

11             "A.  I don't know.

12             "Q.  How do you know they were killed?  Did you see it or ...?

13             "A.  I saw some people being taken off the bus and being killed.

14             "Q.  Who were they taken off the bus by?

15             "A.  I don't know the people.  I don't know these people."

16             So, sir, in fact, you did see Muslim prisoners being taken off

17     the bus and killed at the Vuk Karadzic school; correct?

18        A.   I'm telling you again, I saw they took them out of the bus and

19     behind the school.  Since I was in front of the school, and behind the

20     school there is also a hangar, it was behind the school where I couldn't

21     see it and that's what I said in my statement.  I heard shots but I

22     didn't see the killing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Blagojevic, could we clarify to which statement

24     did you refer now, your statement given in the United States or your

25     statement given to the Mladic Defence?

Page 32657

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the statement about which the

 2     gentleman is questioning me.  I told you I didn't see the killing.  I saw

 3     them being taken behind the school.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  The statement as recorded says:

 5     "I saw some people being taken off the bus and being killed," which, as

 6     far as my knowledge of the English language, is that you saw them being

 7     killed.  So therefore, if you say, I say again, again, and again, you

 8     said something different at the time, and I think Mr. Gillett is trying

 9     to understand why you said that you saw them being killed at the time and

10     why you now say that you only saw them disappearing behind the school.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  On the previous page it is

13     explained, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no.  There is nothing.  This is what the

15     witness says after.  He may have initially said something else.  But this

16     is what he says and I read it literally.

17             And, Mr. Lukic, it's inappropriate to tell us that what the

18     witness said before explains how we have to understand this.  That is

19     argument.  I put some questions to the witness.

20             That's our problem -- or Mr. Gillett's problem at this moment,

21     Mr. Blagojevic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you I didn't see the

23     killing, but I saw a couple of Muslims taken out of the bus and taken

24     behind, but I didn't see it physically.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the next question is:  Do you have any

Page 32658

 1     explanation why you told at the time that you saw them being killed?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I did not understand the

 3     question right, but I simply said that I saw them taken out, but I could

 4     not see through the school.  It was behind the school.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can this page be scrolled up a little bit so that

 6     we can see the B/C/S answer.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gillett, in view of the testimony of the witness

 8     this would be good -- this is not a CLSS translation.  It is a transcript

 9     of an interview in which others have interpreted the words used by the

10     witness.  Perhaps it would be good and wise to have it verified whether

11     this is an accurate interpretation of what was said.

12             MR. GILLETT:  We will have that verified.  Thank you,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. GILLETT:

16        Q.   Mr. Blagojevic, the people that were taking the prisoners behind

17     the school and killing them, were they wearing uniforms?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What type of uniforms?

20        A.   Now I can't remember what kind of uniforms, but I believe they

21     were in uniforms.

22        Q.   Were they military uniforms?

23        A.   I don't know whether they were military uniforms or police

24     uniforms, blue ones.  I can't remember.

25        Q.   So to clarify they were either police uniforms or military

Page 32659

 1     uniforms; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, you and the military police present still had the Browning

 4     gun at this stage outside the school; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So you were armed and guarding the Muslim prisoners, but you

 7     didn't attempt to stop these people taking them from the buses and

 8     killing them, did you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   "Yes" as in you agree that you did not attempt to stop these

11     people; correct?

12        A.   I didn't dare.

13        Q.   On that same day, you accompanied a column of buses with the

14     Muslims prisoners from Bratunac up to Rocevic; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And Mile Janjic was in the same vehicle as you accompanied them;

17     right?

18        A.   Possibly, but I'm not sure.

19        Q.   At Rocevic, the Muslim prisoners were handed over to personnel

20     from the Zvornik military brigade; right?

21        A.   Whether it was the military police or somebody from the

22     Zvornik Brigade, I don't know, because I was at the back of the column.

23     Now who did the handing over?  I was at the back of the column.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Can we get 65 ter document 32111, again, the

25     investigative report.  And if we go to page 4 of this.

Page 32660

 1        Q.   And if we look at the second-last sentence or it may be the

 2     fourth-last sentence, starting:  "Later that morning ..." It states:

 3             "Later that morning, Blagojevic and the other eight military

 4     policemen were ordered to provide security and follow the column of buses

 5     that departed Bratunac.  The column travelled through Kravica and then to

 6     Rocevic where the prisoners were transferred into the custody of the

 7     Zvornik military personnel.  The prisoners were unloaded at a school and

 8     held in the school's gymnasium.  Blagojevic and the other eight military

 9     police officers returned to Bratunac, and the next morning they were

10     assigned routine military police duties such as guard duty on the bridge

11     and check-points."

12             It's correct that the prisoners were handed to Zvornik military

13     personnel in Rocevic; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So when you just said that you weren't sure about that a few

16     moments ago, that was not the truth, was it?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me whether -- whether we

19     had handed them over to the military police of the Zvornik Brigade, and I

20     told you that I was at the back of the column.  Now, who was at the head

21     of the column and who did the hand-over, I couldn't see that.  Now, who

22     did the talking around that hand-over, I don't know.  But we handed them

23     over to the Zvornik Brigade.

24             MR. GILLETT:

25        Q.   Sir, who ordered you to hand over the prisoners?

Page 32661

 1        A.   I don't know.  My group was only told to escort them, to go

 2     behind the convoy to prevent any attack along the way.  Now, who ordered

 3     it, I don't know.

 4        Q.   Who ordered you to escort the column?

 5        A.   I don't remember that.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, at this point I'd tender 32111, which

 7     is the set of investigative reports we've been referring to during the

 8     testimony.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32111 receives number P7186.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the report, not the transcript.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Not the transcript.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Not the transcript.

14             MR. GILLETT:  And --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And that report is how many pages?

16             MR. GILLETT:  That is 21 pages.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P7186 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And on the transcript of

19     the video, I'm suggesting, because it didn't always come through entirely

20     clearly as to when it was a question and when it was an answer when I was

21     reading from the transcript or when it was being played, that what I

22     could do is take the existing transcript and take out the portions that

23     have been read or played to the witness in court and have those made

24     available.  Obviously, if the Defence is agreeable to that suggestion.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, a selection of the videoed interviews

Page 32662

 1     with the witness?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I was informed by my colleague Stojanovic, as he was

 3     more familiar with that, that we would rather have the whole thing, not

 4     the selections, but because --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think the usual practice is that --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I know that --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if a selection is made by the Prosecution, that

 8     the Defence may add any portions it considers relevant for context.

 9             Again, Mr. Lukic, if there are specific matters which are not

10     contextual to the portions selected by the Prosecution, then, of course,

11     you would have to put them to the witness, and you can't just introduce

12     them otherwise.

13             MR. GILLETT:  If --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. GILLETT:  -- it may speed things up, we wouldn't object to

16     the whole video coming in.  We're also happy to take out the excerpts

17     that have been played.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that the Prosecution and Defence will

19     sit together, that the Prosecution explains to the Defence what selection

20     it had on its mind, and that you will add whatever you think is needed

21     even if that would be the complete video.

22             MR. GILLETT:  And --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We will proceed like that, and we already reserve a

24     number for either excerpts or the entirety of the videoed interview of

25     the witness.

Page 32663

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number reserved would be P7187.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And that number stands.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   One final topic, Mr. Blagojevic.  Yesterday during your

 7     testimony, you were asked by the Defence at transcript pages 32605 to

 8     32606 the following:

 9             "Q.  When you were entering the United States and receiving an

10     immigration visa, did they ask you about your participation in the war?

11             "A.  Before we left for the United States, we went to Belgrade

12     and we had a meeting with IOM.  That was the name of the organisation.

13     We had to fill in an application form.  But they tricked us, in fact, and

14     they told us not to report any participation in the war for purposes of

15     speeding up our immigration."

16             So you say that this IOM organisation tricked you into not

17     reporting your membership in the VRS; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Previously, you've said that you left out the information about

20     your involvement in the VRS from the immigration forms because you heard

21     from family members that that was a way of getting into the US; correct?

22        A.   That organisation told us not to report participation in the war

23     in order to leave faster and to have families reunified.

24        Q.   That wasn't my question.  My question was whether you have

25     previously said that you left off the information because family members

Page 32664

 1     told you that this was a way of speeding up the application process?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you're putting something different to the

 3     witness as you did before.  Earlier you said that the witness would have

 4     stated that he heard from family members that it was "a way of getting

 5     into the US," not on speeding up the proceedings.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll repeat the full

 7     initial question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. GILLETT:

10        Q.   Sir, my question initially was:  Previously, you've said that you

11     left out the information about your involvement in the VRS from the

12     immigration forms because you heard from family members that that was a

13     way of getting into US; correct?

14        A.   No, I didn't hear that from family members.  That is what we were

15     told in the organisation of IOM in Belgrade, in order to get out faster.

16             MR. GILLETT:  Could we play the video 65 ter number 32155, and

17     this clip is 00:38:00 to 00:40:35.

18             Before we start playing, I would just note again that it has all

19     the English and the B/C/S, so I suggest it's easier if we don't have

20     interpretation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- our interpreters will be surprised to

22     hear that it's easier to have no interpretation, but under the

23     circumstances I would agree that it's better to play the original without

24     further explanation.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

Page 32665

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "We've been over it a couple of times, I've showed it to you.

 3     When you filled that out and you listed your military services as 1990 to

 4     1992, why did you list it that way?

 5             "My wife was the carrier of that -- was the person that received

 6     the guarantee letter.  I filled it out that way just to come here.

 7             "And you're -- so why did you leave the military service -- the

 8     Bratunac military service off of that form?

 9             "I was afraid that I won't be allowed to come here if I mention

10     that.

11             "Did anybody tell you that?  Did anybody explain that to you?

12             "The others who came earlier, they told me that.

13             "The others -- other family members, other ...?

14             "People who came here before.

15             "Such as?

16             "My wife's parents.  My wife's brother.

17             "Okay.  Do you know if they were specifically instructed in

18     Belgrade not to put that information in there?

19             "I don't know.  I'm not sure.

20             "It was just -- it was just common knowledge or through family?

21             "That was more in the family.  It goes from one person to

22     another.

23             "So when you completed your application in Belgrade, a government

24     worker or somebody didn't tell you to leave it off or anything?

25             "No.

Page 32666

 1             "Okay.  [Indiscernible] he's your brother-in-law" --

 2             MR. GILLETT:  We can stop the video there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You started playing at 38:00.  And we now stop

 4     looking at it at 40:31.8.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Sir, so, in fact, you did hear from family members that you

 7     should not put in the information about your VRS involvement on the

 8     immigration forms; correct?

 9        A.   Well, it's possible that I heard.  But I repeat once again,

10     perhaps I didn't remember to say this here, but I am telling you that the

11     organisation IOM told us not to report participation in the last war.

12     And it wasn't only my family and I that went there, hundreds and hundreds

13     of other families went there too and did the same thing that I did.  So

14     it's this organisation that said this and I stand by that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek further clarification there.  Did they

16     tell you personally that this is the way you should do it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, personally.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your testimony now is squarely contradicting what we

19     hear in the videoed interview.  Do you have any explanation why where

20     quite a number of questions were put especially on this issue, that you

21     give testimony today which is quite different from the answers you gave

22     when interviewed?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you, possibly I didn't

24     remember then.  But later on, after having gone through everything and

25     after having talked to people who, just like I, had a problem, I mean,

Page 32667

 1     they said that and that took me back to my memories of Belgrade and the

 2     IOM.  Now I'm telling you that the organisation that was in Belgrade that

 3     is called IOM, they told us not to report participation in the last war.

 4             During those years in America, my eight years in America, I went

 5     there twice.  It's not that I was hiding anything.  But I'm telling you

 6     that I omitted to say that in that application.  However, in that

 7     application, I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was something like

 8     did I take part in a foreign army.  I did not consider the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska to be a foreign army.

10             So the people who helped us with that application to go to

11     America told us not to report participation in the last war in order to

12     leave faster and to have family reunification.  I state that with full

13     responsibility.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gillett.

15             MR. GILLETT:  I've no further questions, but I would add this

16     excerpt from 65 ter 32155, which I'd also suggest I could discuss with

17     the Defence adding that to the video package.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, of course, we could play it again and

19     then have it on the transcript.  I think the best way of dealing with

20     this is that the accompanying transcript pages to the video, that they

21     should be tendered as well so that we have clearly what we just heard,

22     that we have that as an exhibit.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             MR. GILLETT:  And Mr. --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that it's fully in the transcript.  I usually

Page 32668

 1     am constantly reading the transcript.  I did not in this case because --

 2     but we have the English text of the interview, we have that on the

 3     transcript already.

 4             Nevertheless, I think it would be good also in order to have a

 5     possibility to verify the accuracy of the language -- of the

 6     interpretation used and have it all on the transcript.

 7             MR. GILLETT:  We'll do that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In the exhibit, I mean.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  These were your questions.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I just have several questions, Your Honour.  Thank

13     you.

14             Only for the record, it was proposed yesterday to this witness

15     that there was a Prosecution witness who claimed that it was in front of

16     General Mladic at that time when he was in Konjevic Polje, that one of

17     the detained persons was killed.  We would direct your attention,

18     Your Honours, to the testimony of Prosecution Witness RM253 on the

19     12th of June, 2013, page 1254, where --

20             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, I'd just note that that is a

21     different witness to the one which I referred to in my question

22     yesterday.  Just to avoid any ambiguity.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Well, we --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you want to put to the witness another

25     piece of evidence given by a witness, if that's relevant for questioning,

Page 32669

 1     you can do so and that -- just as Mr. Gillett could tell the witness what

 2     another witness said, you can do the same in the same context.  But it's

 3     appreciated that you already have drawn our attention to the relevant

 4     transcript page so that we can follow it, if you have any questions for

 5     the witness.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.  I just wanted to put this on the

 7     record.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Since we did not have any reference of what my

10     learned friend -- actually, we did not get any reference.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think it would have been in the --

12     Mr. Gillett, if you would have said another witness, Your Honours,

13     transcript page so-and-so gives the reference, that would have been

14     preferable, so that we can verify whether -- what exactly the source was

15     you were quoting from.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Blagojevic, good day.

20        A.   Good day.

21        Q.   You heard yesterday that I would be standing in for my colleague,

22     Mr. Stojanovic?

23        A.   Yes, I heard that.

24        Q.   When you talked to the investigators in the United States of

25     America, did you ever tell them in all of those interviews that you

Page 32670

 1     stopped in Konjevic Polje?  Do you remember now?

 2        A.   Well, I don't remember.  But I know that we didn't stop in

 3     Konjevic Polje.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify the transcript, Mr. Lukic, I heard

 5     your question in the following way:

 6             "Did you ever tell them in all of those interviews ..."

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And not "you."

 9             MR. LUKIC:  No, not "me."  "Tell them."

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's clarified.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Today we looked at a document, and I'd like to

13     go back to that, 65 ter 32112.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the same page, 82, the one

15     that my colleague had called up.

16        Q.   The very bottom of the page, it's in B/C/S as well, the

17     translation of the question, you say:

18             "The next morning, the next day, some prisoners were killed in

19     front of the school.  Can you explain that to me?"

20             Your answer was:

21             "Behind the school.  Behind the school, over there, towards the

22     hangar."

23             And now let us move on to the next page.  The middle of the page

24     in B/C/S.

25             "How do you know that they were killed?  Did you see ..."

Page 32671

 1             Your answer:

 2             "I saw some people being taken off the bus and that someone was

 3     killing them.  Now ..." And then you were interrupted there.

 4             In this section, did you want to change the place where the

 5     people had been killed, as you said on the previous page?

 6        A.   No, I said that they were taken behind the school towards the

 7     hangar.  So since I was in front of the school and I could not see

 8     towards the hangar behind the school, there is nothing for me to change.

 9     I said that, that they took them behind the school.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Blagojevic.  That is all I had for you.

11        A.   You're welcome.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Blagojevic, I have one follow-up question in

13     this respect.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If someone asks you how do you know they were

16     killed, did you see it, in view of your testimony of today I would have

17     expected an answer:  No, I didn't see it because I couldn't see it

18     because I was in front of the school and they were in the back of the

19     school, rather than that you say that you saw them being taken away and

20     being killed.  Any explanation for that?

21        A.   Well, what I saw --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no --

23        A.   -- well, a few soldiers --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'm interested in is how do you explain the

25     difference between what you told in the US at the time and what you're

Page 32672

 1     telling us now?

 2        A.   Well, I'm telling you that I personally, physically, did not see

 3     the killings.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, your testimony of today is clear to us.  What

 5     we are and what the parties may be struggling with is why you told

 6     otherwise when you were interviewed at the time?

 7        A.   When I spoke in America, I said that they were taken behind the

 8     school.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you also said, did you see it, you

10     confirmed that you saw them being taken away and saw them being killed.

11     And, Mr. Lukic -- so therefore, you're telling us half of what you said

12     in the US, and I draw your attention to the fact that you also confirmed

13     that you saw it.

14        A.   I did not confirm over there either that I had seen it.  I am

15     just repeating yet again --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please stop.  There is no need to do that.  Your

17     testimony of today is clear.

18             Mr. Lukic, I noted when you were putting this portion of the

19     interview to the witness that the translation, the interpretation was

20     slightly different from what we see on paper.  And I found that there is

21     a difference -- one second, please, so that I can take myself back to

22     what you quoted.  Yes.

23             The difference is that in the English version of the interview,

24     the language is:  "I saw them being taken ... and being killed," whereas

25     in the interpretation that we heard when you read this portion that: "I

Page 32673

 1     saw some people being taken off the bus and that someone was killing

 2     them," which is an even more direct link to observing the killing,

 3     because it says "someone."

 4             Now, I would very much like that portion to be verified, whether

 5     the translation as given at that time is the correct one, that is, the

 6     answer given by the witness, whether it's accurately interpreted by

 7     saying "I saw them being killed," or whether the accurate translation

 8     would be "someone was killing them."

 9             We don't need the witness to further verify this, but I'd like

10     this to be dealt with in detail, and perhaps the parties could agree on

11     what is the accurate translation and, perhaps with the assistance of

12     CLSS, resolve the matter.

13             Mr. Gillett.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Just one question for further re-examination

15     arising from the -- sorry, for further cross-examination arising from the

16     re-examination.

17                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:

18        Q.   Sir, at temporary transcript line 20, line 5, you were asked:

19             "When you talked to the investigators in the United States of

20     America, did you ever tell me in all those interviews that you stopped in

21     Konjevic Polje?"

22             "A.  Well, I don't remember, but I know that we didn't stop in

23     Konjevic Polje."

24             When I look at your transcript -- or, sorry, the statement that

25     you gave to the Defence here in these proceedings, which is D922, at

Page 32674

 1     paragraph 9, you state:

 2             "After the general addressed the captured Muslims from Sandici,

 3     we headed down the road to Konjevic Polje where we briefly stopped at the

 4     police check-point where there were several civilian policemen on duty."

 5             So your answer in re-examination was different from the statement

 6     you've made at paragraph 9; correct?

 7        A.   I'm saying that when we were going back from Sandici,

 8     General Mladic just stopped briefly.  Now, was it through the window or

 9     through the open door, he just scolded these civilian policemen, that

10     they were practically doing nothing.  We almost didn't stop in

11     Konjevic Polje.  It was sort of in passing.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Gillett.

14             Witness, this concludes your testimony.  We would like to thank

15     you for coming the long way to The Hague and for having answered the

16     questions that were put to you.  I wish you a safe return home again and

17     you may follow the usher.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, just while the witness is being taken

21     out, I'd just note for the record that yesterday when I was referring to

22     the Prosecution witness who said that Mladic was present when a Bosnian

23     Muslim was killed at Novo Kasaba, I gave the reference to the relevant

24     transcript page, and you can see this at yesterday's transcript at 32620.

25     Just for the record.

Page 32675

 1             I would also ask if myself and Mr. McCloskey could be excused

 2     prior to the next witness's testimony.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 4             Mr. Lukic, when you said no reference was given, first of all my

 5     recollection didn't serve me well.  I take it that if you blame

 6     Mr. Gillett, as you did, for not having given a reference, that you would

 7     have verified that.  You apparently didn't because he gave the reference.

 8     It's clearly on the record.  Would you please next time verify before you

 9     make any such claims.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I apologise if I made a wrong accusation.  And

11     I cannot even check it now because our transcript is not --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I did it.

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- updated.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I did it for you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And I can tell you that it is accurate.  Mr. Gillett

17     is new, so I don't know whether he easily accepts apologies, yes or no.

18     I know that there are quite some apologies to be accepted in this

19     courtroom from my position from right to left and sometimes from left to

20     right as well.

21             We take a break and we will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the next witness to enter the

25     courtroom.

Page 32676

 1             It will be you, Mr. Ivetic, who will examine the witness.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  The next witness is

 3     Mr. Branko Volas, pursuant to 92 ter, no protective measures.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

 5             I could briefly deal with one matter which deals with P6698.

 6             On the 31st of October of last year, the Prosecution e-mailed the

 7     Chamber advising that it was prepared to make a brief in-court submission

 8     on the investigation into discrepancies in Exhibit P6698.

 9             The Chamber sets a dead-line for the Prosecution to make the

10     submission in writing.  The Chamber also notes the order of the original

11     B/C/S pages of Exhibit P6698 and requests the Prosecution to submit a

12     correct version.  The matter was dealt with transcript pages 24794,

13     24804, and 24829 to 24831.

14             I said I set a dead-line but I still have to tell you what that

15     dead-line is.  That would be next week, Tuesday, close of business.

16             Could I ask the parties to try to be as efficient as possible so

17     that the witness can leave The Hague before the weekend.  The total time

18     estimated is one hour and 30 minutes for cross, and 30 minutes for the

19     Defence; therefore, two hours that should well fit into today's court

20     session.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Volas.  Could you please stand for

23     a second.

24             Good morning, Mr. Volas.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

25     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

Page 32677

 1     to you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 5                           WITNESS:  BRANKO VOLAS

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Volas, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.

 9     You will find Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the

10     Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

12                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

13        Q.   Good day, sir.  Could you please state your full name so that it

14     correctly appears in the record.

15        A.   I am Branko Volas, born in 1954, in Kljuc.  Father Luka, mother

16     Rosa.  I live in Zabrdje.  I am father of two, retired.

17             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up 65 ter number 1D1624 in e-court.

18        Q.   Sir, can you tell us whose signature appears on the first page of

19     this witness statement?

20        A.   It's my signature.

21             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to the last page of the document in

22     e-court.

23        Q.   And, sir, on this page there is a signature above a date.  Can

24     you tell us whose signature we see here?

25        A.   It's my signature.

Page 32678

 1        Q.   And, sir, subsequent to signing this statement on the date

 2     indicated, did you have a chance to read it over fully in the Serbian

 3     language to make sure that everything is correctly recorded in the

 4     statement?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And is everything accurately recorded in this statement?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If I were to ask you questions today based upon the same topics

 9     as those in your written statement, would your answers today in substance

10     be the same as the information which is contained in the written

11     statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And, sir, since you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the

14     truth, does that mean that the answers as recorded in your statement are

15     truthful in nature?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the Defence would tender 1D1624 into

18     evidence.  There are no associated exhibits with that statement.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1624 receives number D923.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D923 is admitted.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have a short summary which has been

23     explained to the witness.

24             The witness Branko Volas testifies that before the conflict broke

25     out in Kljuc, besides the police forces, mixed Serb and Muslim armed

Page 32679

 1     forces set up by the Territorial Defence were present in town.

 2             The first incidents in Kljuc were caused by Muslim extremists who

 3     attacked buses transporting unarmed JNA soldiers demobilised from the

 4     Croatian front, and ambushed and killed the deputy commander of the Kljuc

 5     police station.

 6             In certain villages inhabited by Muslims, check-points were set

 7     up which controlled the movement of Serbs.  After these incidents, chaos

 8     ensued which lasted until the political authorities were in place.  After

 9     the civilian authorities were established, they ordered that all citizens

10     of Kljuc be protected.  Everyone who did not possess illegal weapons nor

11     pose a threat to Republika Srpska could remain in Kljuc.

12             All those that had someone in third countries tried to leave

13     Kljuc and go to a place where there was no war.  This was done by

14     Muslims, Croats, and Serbs alike.  The corridor was closed and the

15     connection with Serbia was cut off, so there was less food and medicine

16     available.  These conditions were difficult for all citizens of Kljuc.

17     It was understandable that people would want to leave.

18             And that ends the public summary.

19        Q.   Now, before we turn to some matters from your statement, sir, can

20     you please tell us what position you held during the war and in what

21     formation?

22        A.   Yes.  I was mobilised in February 1992.  It was still the JNA,

23     the 13th Krajina Brigade, and its headquarters were in Banja Luka.  I was

24     an operations officer in the brigade command.  And when unrests broke out

25     in Kupres plateau, our unit was deployed at the demarcation line

Page 32680

 1     between the Croat, Muslim, and Serb territory.  And I stayed there until

 2     24 June 1992, when I was transferred to the Kljuc 17th Brigade to be

 3     assistant commander for intelligence and security in the battalion that

 4     was being set up then.  Until 16 July, in Donja Previja, members for that

 5     unit were recruited and prepared for deployment.  Around the 17th of

 6     August, we were transferred to the area of Grmec, towards Bihac, Grmusa

 7     sector, where we stayed for about 20 days on the demarcation line, and at

 8     that time I was appointed commander of the 3rd Battalion.

 9             In the beginning of August, we were sent on home leave, and after

10     that we went about our duties pursuant to the orders from the command,

11     and our tasks included mainly holding the separation line between the

12     warring parties.

13        Q.   Now I want to turn to page 2 of your statement, and I want to

14     look at the second paragraph of the same.

15             MR. IVETIC:  So if we can call that up.

16        Q.   And here you talk of mixed Serb and Muslim armed forces that had

17     been created by the Territorial Defence.  First I want to ask you what

18     about the active and reserve police forces which you mention, what was

19     their composition?

20        A.   At that time before the end of May, there were both Serbs and

21     Muslims in the reserve force of the police, and probably also the

22     Territorial Defence.  Since I was in one of these units, I noticed when I

23     came back on leave from the Kupres plateau that in my street outside my

24     building - and you have to know that Kljuc is a small town - I noticed

25     that there were both Muslims and Serbs together in patrols.  Patrols

Page 32681

 1     existed at that time to secure buildings, various installations,

 2     businesses, et cetera.

 3        Q.   Now, in relation to these mixed Serb and Muslim forces patrolling

 4     the town, what happened to them when the conflict broke out in Kljuc

 5     municipality?

 6        A.   I couldn't tell you that because at that critical moment, I just

 7     arrived on leave from Kupres, and what happened later I don't know.

 8     While I was away, I couldn't see whether they continued to be mixed units

 9     and mixed patrols.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now if we could focus on the third paragraph in your

11     statement on this same page.  Can you provide us a time-frame for when

12     these incidents, the attack on the bus of JNA soldiers and the ambush and

13     killing of the deputy commander of the police station, a time-frame for

14     when these incidents occurred?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Which paragraph are we --

16             MR. IVETIC:  3.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  3.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that was on 27 May.  At

19     that time, I was about 20 kilometres away from the scene, and I noticed

20     that in the meantime reserve policemen had been called in.  I knew some

21     of them and they told me about this incident, that fire was opened at a

22     convoy of military vehicles and Mr. Stojakovic, a deputy commander of the

23     military police, was killed.

24             After that I went home to see my wife and children and see what

25     the situation was like.  I saw that something was going on.  I saw that

Page 32682

 1     there was anxiety on both sides, and there were ambulances and other

 2     emergency vehicles moving around more than usual.  So it all began during

 3     those days.

 4        Q.   Now in this same paragraph, you identify:

 5             "In certain villages and settlements that were predominantly

 6     inhabited by Muslims, they set up check-points and controlled the

 7     movement of Serbs."

 8             Can you specify for us what village or villages are at issue

 9     here?

10        A.   On that day, my wife's brother was visiting his father in Pec

11     village, which is between Sanski Most and Kljuc.  And when he was passing

12     by bus through Krasulje, going to Sanski Most, the vehicle was stopped.

13     He knew those people.  He saw that they were armed Muslims.  They didn't

14     create any problems, they let the people go on.  But in the same place,

15     Stojakovic was later killed.  I know that from reliable sources.  I don't

16     know anything else.

17        Q.   In --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if a witness says that he knows something on the

21     basis of reliable sources, then of course the reliability is for the

22     Chamber to decide.  Could you further explore those sources.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Sir, you've heard what the Judges have said.  Could you provide

25     more details as to the sources of this information that you have just

Page 32683

 1     referenced?

 2        A.   That information came from my wife's brother, who saw me that

 3     very day.  He told me that and I believe him, and that's the only

 4     reliable information that I have.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness, you told us that your brother-in-law

 6     came across those check-points.  Did you have any personal experience at

 7     check-points?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Between my village, Zabrdje,

 9     and Kljuc, there is a settlement --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- where I passed through after all

12     these incidents.  I didn't see, I didn't notice anyone armed or standing

13     unarmed on the road, nor were there any problems on the way through that

14     area.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So the only source of knowledge is your

16     brother-in-law.

17             Now, you also said that someone was killed at that same

18     check-point at a later point in time, Mr. Stojakovic.  What is your

19     source of knowledge of that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that area.  I passed through

21     that place many times, Krasulje village, where Stojakovic was killed.

22     You have a very good view of that area.  You can see both vehicles and

23     people.  It was a road under their control.  It was safe for them and

24     they probably shot him.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  They probably shot him.  So it is -- you think that

Page 32684

 1     he would have been shot there, but you are not certain about it.  Is that

 2     how I have to understand your testimony?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, after the bus arrived in

 4     Kljuc, the police was informed that there was this incident with a bus

 5     and passengers, and the police came out to investigate, and that's how it

 6     happened.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but what is now your specific source of

 8     knowledge about Mr. Stojakovic being killed, by whom?  Who told you or

 9     did you see it or ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  At that time I wasn't

11     there.  I was 20 kilometres away, as I said.  The people who were with

12     him told me that, members of the police who were with him in the car.

13     And I believe there was more than one car.  They were all met with

14     gun-fire but they managed to pull back and escape.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   If we can turn to page 4 in both languages of your statement, I'd

19     like to ask you a question about paragraph 13 of the same.

20             Sir, in paragraph 13 you say:

21             "The Serbs were armed legally through the army."

22             Could you please explain for us what you meant to say here?  What

23     kind of Serb persons were so armed?

24        A.   I can maintain that only about those Serbs who were mobilised

25     into JNA units at the time, and of course when they were mobilised they

Page 32685

 1     were given weapons.  Whether there was illegal arming or not, I don't

 2     know that since I was already part of a unit.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Sure.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, the JNA was a mixed army, wasn't it?  I mean,

 6     there were Croats and Muslims and Serbs in it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And all of the members of the army would have been

 9     legally armed by the JNA, isn't it so?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That would include the Muslims and the Croats?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those who actually responded

13     to the call-up.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the JNA had always had people -- we're not

15     talking about something that is created during the war, but we're talking

16     about the JNA that was existing before the war.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war, the units did not

18     arm men when they were at home.  They were given weapons only when they

19     assembled at a given place, when they were mobilised, so we did not have

20     any weapons at home.  You got a weapon only when you were mobilised and

21     when a unit was formed.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who armed these Serbs at this point in time

23     legally?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time the units that were in

25     charge; that's to say, levels above brigade.  In pre-war conditions,

Page 32686

 1     there were commands for the development of so-called partisan units that

 2     were in charge of such tasks.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But my question is:  What authority was arming

 4     these Serb people who were legally armed?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not authorities.  It's the

 6     official JNA that was in JNA barracks, and in those barracks, weapons and

 7     equipment were held.  And on the orders of a superior command, these

 8     development commands would bring weapons to the assembly place.  And when

 9     men were mobilised, they would come to that assembly point, receive

10     weapons, and at that time it wouldn't matter whether they were Muslim,

11     Croat, or Serb.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you say in that the Serbs legally armed and

13     they were armed by the JNA, so I would expect that the JNA didn't arm

14     them, the Croats and the Muslims.  From what you're saying.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are not understanding each

16     other.  I said in February 1992 there was still JNA, and within those

17     partisan units of the JNA - for instance, in our specific unit - there

18     were both Muslims and Croats.  And, of course, they received weapons at

19     the time as well.

20             However, later on they kept the weapons and left the units.  Some

21     stayed within the units, but a lot of people left and kept their weapons.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Sir, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the team, I

Page 32687

 1     thank you for answering my questions.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine

 5     the witness, I have one question for you in relation to paragraph 14.

 6     And it's a very short paragraph, so I'll read it to you in its entirety:

 7             "At the time of the incidents cited in the indictment, I was in

 8     the war theatre at Kupres.  I do not know anything about the number of

 9     victims and the incident itself."

10             It is not entirely clear what incident you are talking about.

11     You are talking about incidents cited in the indictment, but there are

12     many.  Could you tell us which one you had on your mind when you said

13     that you did not have any knowledge about the number of victims and the

14     incident itself?  What incident were you talking about?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said when you asked me

16     where I was and what I did during all these things that happened.  I said

17     that on the 24th of June I was at Kupres; that is to say, that is more

18     than 100 kilometres away from the place where this was happening.  And

19     then I was in Donja Previja at the mobilisation of the 3rd Battalion --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  We don't hear the witness anymore.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there, because you may have

22     misunderstood my question.

23             You said, "I was 100 kilometres away," but what is the incident

24     you are talking about?  What is it?  Was it an expulsion of persons, was

25     it a killing, was it wounding, was it people being fired from their jobs?

Page 32688

 1     I've got no idea what incident you are talking about in paragraph 14, and

 2     I'm asking you to tell me.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably when this statement

 4     was being taken, a question was put about incidents in the area of

 5     Velagici.  Now, what was the name of that village?  Prhovo and so on.

 6     Probably that was the question put to me.  That's why I said that I had

 7     no knowledge.  I don't know of the number of victims.  I don't know where

 8     it happened exactly, and who did all of that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But you don't remember exactly which incident you

10     are telling us you have no knowledge of?

11             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot understand what

13     the witness is saying.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the microphone be adjusted for the witness.

15             Perhaps you -- my question was whether you don't remember exactly

16     which incident you are telling us about of which you have no knowledge?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no knowledge about -- you don't know that.

19             Did you look in the indictment at the time?  Because you are

20     talking about incidents in the indictment.  Were you familiar with the

21     indictment?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The persons who spoke to me

23     when I was giving the statement assumed that there would be questions

24     about these incidents because the indictment has to do with what happened

25     in the area of Kljuc.

Page 32689

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they tell you exactly about these incidents?

 2     Did they explain to you what they were?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So you're telling us that you don't know about

 5     something which you don't even know what it is that you don't know about?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, everything I knew came from

 7     much later.  People talked.  You know, it's a small community and people

 8     talk about things, and things that people talk about I cannot say are

 9     true or not true.  You know what it's like.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But in many respects, you told us that you learned

11     just from others what had happened.  So you don't know whether that's

12     true or not what you learned about Mr. Stojakovic being killed when you

13     were 20 kilometres away?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I heard about that.  The

15     man was killed and I attended the funeral.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I leave it to that.

17             Mr. Jeremy, if you're ready to cross-examine the witness, you may

18     start doing so.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And good morning.

20             And just at the outset, full disclosure:  I initially estimated

21     an hour and a half for this witness and I revised it down subsequently to

22     an hour, which in an hour's time might be something I regret, but I'm

23     going to aim to stick to that hour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You are encouraged to do that.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 32690

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to return to paragraph 14 of your statement,

 3     which we've just been discussing.  Now, charged in the indictment is an

 4     incident relating to Kljuc on or about the 1st of June, 1992, and that's

 5     the -- that incident is the killing of at least 77 men at Velagici

 6     school.

 7             Now, I understand from your testimony today that you were in

 8     Kupres at this time; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, the -- another incident charged in the indictment relating

11     to Kljuc is on the 10th of July, 1992, and that relates to the killing of

12     at least 144 people in Biljani.  Now, I understand from your testimony

13     today that you returned from Kupres on the 24th of June, 1992, when you

14     were transferred to the 17th Brigade as assistant commander for intel and

15     security.  So were you, in fact, in Kljuc on the date of this particular

16     incident, the 10th of July, 1992?

17        A.   No, I was assistant commander of a battalion, and it was being

18     established in Donja Previja.  That is 12 or 13 kilometres away from

19     Kljuc in the area of --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the rest.

21             MR. JEREMY:

22        Q.   Sir, could you repeat the final part of your answer?  You said

23     that you were assistant commander of the battalion and -- which was

24     established in Donja Previja.  "That's 12 or 13 kilometres away from

25     Kljuc in the area of ..." and we didn't hear the area.  If you could

Page 32691

 1     repeat that.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 3     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area of Ribnik and Banja

 5     Luka, in that direction.  On one side is Biljani.  On the other side -- I

 6     mean, Kljuc, so then Donja Previja is out there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you also speak slightly louder.

 8             MR. JEREMY:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, in relation to these incidents occurring in Kljuc in a

10     general sense, you said that people were talking about them.  Now, as

11     part of this talk, did you hear that Marko Samardzija, a company

12     commander in the 2nd Battalion of the 17th Brigade, was involved in this

13     particular incident in Biljani?

14        A.   No.  No.  I knew Marko before the war.  After that I didn't see

15     him.  I didn't have any contact with him.  Especially because, at that

16     time, part of the unit was at the Bihac theatre of war, another one at

17     the Jajce theatre of war.  There was no contact between the units.  I did

18     not know who was there and what was going on.

19        Q.   So, to be clear, you had no contact with Marko Samardzija during

20     the war period, is that correct, between 1992 and 1995?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

22     witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where he was.

24             MR. JEREMY:

25        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your answer, please?

Page 32692

 1        A.   I had no contact with Samardzija, and I did not see him during

 2     the war, and I don't know where he was.  I never noticed him in the

 3     2nd Battalion, and I did have contact with the 2nd Battalion at the end

 4     of June at --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the name of the

 6     plateau.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is to say, 100 kilometres away

 8     from Kljuc.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, could you speak up a bit louder and

10     come a bit closer to the microphones.  The interpreters have repeatedly

11     difficulties in hearing you.

12             MR. JEREMY:

13        Q.   And, sir, you mentioned a particular plateau, and the

14     interpreters did not capture the name of that plateau.  Could you repeat

15     it, please.

16        A.   Grmusa plateau.  That's the territory of the municipality of

17     Bihac.  Between Bosanska Krupa and Bihac there is Grmec.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, today you were you were appointed commander of

19     the 3rd Battalion around August or September 1992.  Now, you were

20     replaced as the commander of the 3rd Battalion at the end of

21     October 1994; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you were replaced by Bozo Davidovic; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you were replaced as commander of the 3rd Battalion because

Page 32693

 1     there were concerns that you were making arrangements to leave your

 2     battalion's position at the time; correct?

 3        A.   I don't think that that is what is charged in the indictment.  I

 4     think it was something else.

 5        Q.   Sir, you refer to an indictment.  Could you explain what

 6     indictment you're referring to?

 7        A.   Probably this one on account of which I'm testifying here today.

 8        Q.   Sir, when you said that you think something else was charged in

 9     the indictment, can you explain what you meant?

10        A.   Could you please repeat that question?  I did not quite

11     understand it.

12        Q.   Yes, sir.  Well, sir, I suggested to you that you were -- the

13     reason you were replaced as commander of the 3rd Battalion was because

14     there were concerns that you were making arrangements to leave your

15     battalion's position in October 1994.

16             Now in response you said to me:

17             "I don't think that that is what is charged in the indictment.  I

18     think it was something else."

19             So could you clarify what you're referring to as you think it was

20     something else?

21        A.   Well, because there were no proceedings against me, disciplinary

22     or court proceedings, in relation to what happened.  I was simply

23     reassigned to a different unit, to the same position.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let's take a quick look at an exhibit in connection with

25     this, which might be able to assist.

Page 32694

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P362, and that's the notebook of

 2     General Mladic.  And could we go to page 115 in the English and 114 in

 3     the B/C/S, please.

 4             Sorry, could we go to the -- I should have said.  Could we go to

 5     the typed B/C/S version of the diary?  My mistake.

 6        Q.   Now, sir - thank you - on the screen before you, we see this is

 7     General Mladic's diary and we see an entry relating to the 13th of

 8     October, 1994, and we see that there is a meeting with commanders of the

 9     RSK.  And we see a reference to the 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps and some

10     additional corps.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to page 121 in the English and

12     120 in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Now, sir, directing your attention to the bottom of the page on

14     the screen before you, we see a reference to a Mitrovic.  That's a

15     reference to Colonel Mikajlo Mitrovic, the chief of intel and security in

16     the 2nd Krajina Corps; yes?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

18     answer.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer and speak up a little

20     bit more, because if we can't hear you, we can't ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew Colonel Mitrovic personally.

22     Now, what duty he had in the corps command, that I don't know.

23             MR. JEREMY:

24        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to the next page in each language,

Page 32695

 1     please.  Okay.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   So, sir, referring your attention to the second hyphenated

 3     paragraph, I read as follows:

 4             "- In the 3rd Battalion of the 17th Brigade - it has been proven

 5     that Captain 1st Class Branko Volas was making arrangements with star

 6     commanding officers and company commanders to leave the battalion

 7     position."

 8             Now, firstly, sir, that's a reference to yourself, correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now this entry appears to suggest that you were indeed making

11     arrangements to leave the battalion position.  Can you explain what this

12     entry actually relates to?

13        A.   I think that that is the personal opinion of Colonel Mitrovic.

14     At that time, I carried out the orders issued to me by my superior

15     command of the brigade, and that meant moving the unit to reserve

16     positions which made it possible to act better.  This was done on orders

17     from the brigade command.

18        Q.   But it was because of this position that you were -- it was

19     because of the decision that you took that you were removed from your

20     position as battalion commander; correct?

21        A.   That was not my decision.  That was implementation of orders from

22     the superior command.

23        Q.   And what position did you take after you were removed as

24     battalion commander?

25        A.   For a while after the situation became different in the

Page 32696

 1     15th Bihac Brigade, I was company commander and then battalion commander.

 2     And that's where I was until the end of the war.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber wonders, not only in respect

 4     to the cross-examination but for the entirety, perhaps, of the testimony

 5     of the witness, what the relevance is.

 6             We do not see anything, in his statement at least, about his

 7     functions, et cetera, that was introduced today.  Of course, the 65 ter

 8     summary tells us that he would tell us a lot of things about all kind of

 9     things where we do not find anything in his statement about most of it.

10     And now, apparently, there has once been a problem in whether or not this

11     witness was a reliable officer or not, I take it.  We don't know exactly

12     what happened but -- and now we are spending a lot of time on that.

13             Could you either come to your point quickly or explain to us what

14     the relevance of this is?  And perhaps we should have asked the question

15     for the whole of this testimony to the Defence as well.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  I simply wanted to explore this

17     entry[ relating to the witness departing from his position as battalion

18     commander.  It's not something that's mentioned in his statement.  But if

19     it's not of -- I see it's not of assistance to the Chamber, so I'll move

20     on.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not know.  Apparently someone has had,

22     and perhaps the accused may have had, at some time a concern about this

23     witness perhaps leaving with his battalion.  And then he says, Well, that

24     was not the case and I've never been prosecuted for that.

25             So we are dealing with a totally isolated incident which

Page 32697

 1     apparently has got nothing to do with the indictment, at least as far as

 2     we understand from the evidence as presented until now.  And are we going

 3     to listen to those details for another hour?

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Well, Your Honours, the position of the Prosecution

 5     would be that this is a clear example of command and control being

 6     exercised by the accused.  Concerns about this witness as a battalion

 7     commander are expressed in the diary entry of Mr. Mladic.  Shortly after

 8     that, the witness is removed from his position.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I see your point.  And I can also imagine

10     that in view of what was announced in the 65 ter summary, that you would

11     expect evidence of this kind, and it was introduced only today.

12             Let's then briefly deal with that.  You've now explained what the

13     relevance is, and I think we could deal with that easily in ten, perhaps

14     15 minutes, isn't it?  If it's just that issue.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  And I'm satisfied the issue has

16     been sufficiently dealt with now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Well, if the Prosecution is going to stand up and

19     give their position, I think it's only fair that the Defence stands up

20     and gives their position on this evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason, first of all, I intervened during

22     cross-examination and I addressed the cross-examiner.  And I was about to

23     give you an opportunity to make any submissions you think would be

24     important at this moment.  Perhaps one of them, if you could clarify, why

25     there is such a huge difference between the 65 ter summary and what we

Page 32698

 1     find in the statement of the witness.  That would certainly be

 2     appreciated.  If you can do it in a few words.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  With respect to the 65 ter summary, I don't know who

 4     prepared it for this witness.  It was not myself.  But I think that the

 5     information was not yet available to us fully as to what the witness

 6     would testify about.  I believe the statement is dated after the date

 7     that the 65 ter would have been submitted.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if you say the witness will testify

 9     about the composition of his battalion and its activities, well, whether

10     the evidence is there depends on what you present.  You -- there is no

11     way that you could say, "Well, we didn't know yet what the witness would

12     testify about," because he'll testify about what you ask him.  He'll

13     testify about what you put in his statement.  Apparently, you have

14     changed your mind in this respect.

15             But please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And -- proceed to whom?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, to you, Mr. Ivetic --

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- because you were -- I interrupted you.

20             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct.

21             Now, in relation to this that has just been shown to the witness,

22     it would be the Defence's position that this demonstrates that there was

23     oftentimes questions about the veracity of information that was coming up

24     through the reporting.  And that given the evidence of this witness that

25     he's just now given, that has demonstrated that what was reported in this

Page 32699

 1     meeting is not in accord with what the witness presents or the factual

 2     scenario at the time.

 3             And that would be the position of the Defence.  And I thank you

 4     for that and apologise for taking up this much time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And I will move on from

 7     this area.

 8        Q.   Could we -- and we'll go back, sir, to Kljuc in 1992 and focus on

 9     paragraph 3 of your statement.  Now in this paragraph 3, you refer to

10     preparations that were being made for war by "Muslim extremists."  The

11     Serb leadership in Kljuc were also organising militarily in the months

12     leading up to the conflict; correct?

13        A.   Since I was in a JNA unit at the time, what the Serb leadership

14     in the municipality of Kljuc was doing then, I don't know.  I don't know

15     what you consider to be the Serbian leadership.  Is that the

16     Territorial Defence or is it politics?

17        Q.   Well, sir, I'd like to show you an exhibit in connection with

18     that and I think that will answer your question.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I know we're close to the break time.

20     This area will probably take me five minutes or so.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then how much time would you then need after the

22     break?

23             MR. JEREMY:  I think I've probably taken around 20 minutes or so.

24     I'll -- I will finish in the next session after the break, comfortably.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.  But could you please consider

Page 32700

 1     to see -- a witness who has testified that he doesn't know anything about

 2     A and knows everything about B but gives hardly any sources of knowledge,

 3     and the sources of knowledge he testified about, well, may require

 4     reassessment of the importance and of the accuracy of the whole of the

 5     testimony.

 6             Could you please consider all that and see how much time you

 7     would need after the break after you've thought this over.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, Witness.  We'd like to see you back

10     in 20 minutes.  And we'll then continue.  You may follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

16     the courtroom.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Now, sir, at the end of the last session we were discussing the

21     Serb leadership in Kljuc.  Now, that's something that I will come back

22     to, but now I'd like to switch topics.  And I'd like to focus on

23     paragraph 7 of your statement where you refer to Muslims being part of

24     the police in Kljuc, and that's something that you discussed earlier

25     today.

Page 32701

 1             So in paragraph 7 of your statement, you state:

 2             "There were many instances of persons of Muslim ethnicity

 3     remaining in the VRS and in the civilian police.  Whoever wanted could

 4     continue to work at the police."

 5             Now, sir, just to clarify this paragraph in your statement in the

 6     context of what you have told us this morning, I understand your position

 7     to be that up until the point of the outbreak of the conflict in Kljuc,

 8     the police was mixed, but after that point, you're not in a position to

 9     say whether or not the police was indeed mixed; is that correct?

10        A.   After that, I know about only one case, where a Croat person

11     remained on the police force all the way up until the end of war.  He

12     continued to work in the police of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to change topic again, and I'd like to

14     discuss the topic of the dismissal of people from work, which is referred

15     to in paragraph 10 of your statement.  Now in that paragraph 10, you say

16     that only representatives of the SDA and the HDZ were replaced by Serbs,

17     and that all other citizens who observed the constitution and the laws of

18     RS, Republika Srpska, could remain in the municipality of Kljuc and work.

19             Now, sir, in fact in July 1992, the War Presidency of the Kljuc

20     municipality decided that only officials of Serbian nationality could

21     occupy those posts that were considered to be the most important in

22     Kljuc.  That's correct, isn't it?

23        A.   Well, as far as I can see, my statement does not refer to

24     officials but workers, employees.

25        Q.   Well, sir, so is it your position that when you say that "all

Page 32702

 1     other citizens who observed the constitution and the laws of

 2     Republika Srpska could remain in the municipality of Kljuc and work," you

 3     were excluding from that sentence persons who held the most important

 4     positions in the Kljuc municipality?  Is that correct?  So that's an

 5     additional category to representatives of the SDA and the HDZ who were

 6     removed from their posts.

 7        A.   I think the officials and managers are a type of employees.  I

 8     didn't make a distinction between these two categories, nor do I know

 9     about any decisions banning anyone from work in that area.

10        Q.   Let's look at an exhibit in connection with this.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 03070.

12        Q.   And, sir, I'm not disputing that officials and managers are a

13     type of employee, so that's clear to you.  Now, we see that this is a

14     decision of the War Presidency of the Assembly of the Kljuc municipality.

15     It was taken on the 21st of July, 1992.  We see the name at the bottom,

16     president of the War Presidency, Jovo Banjac.  Was this -- did you know

17     Jovo Banjac, sir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And how did you know him?

20        A.   Mr. Banjac was for a while the director of the construction

21     company where I worked at before the war.

22        Q.   And did you know him during the war in his capacity as president

23     of the War Presidency?

24        A.   I knew him as president of the assembly, the speaker.  As for the

25     War Presidency, it was some sort of civilian structure, while I was part

Page 32703

 1     of a military unit and I had no contact with that agency.

 2        Q.   So you didn't attend any meetings yourself with Jovo Banjac;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I don't recall any official meetings.  Perhaps we had coffee once

 5     or twice together.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's focus in this decision and in particular

 7     paragraph 1, where we read:

 8             "Only officials of Serbian nationality can occupy managerial

 9     posts, posts which may provide access to information or involve the

10     protection of public property, and posts which are important for the

11     functioning of the economy."

12             So, sir, you would agree that this decision focuses on the type

13     of posts that are being occupied, and it says nothing about whether the

14     occupants of those posts have an affiliation to the SDA or the HDZ?

15        A.   I don't know what I'm supposed to answer, specifically.

16        Q.   Well, sir, in your statement, you have said that the only persons

17     who could not stay in their positions were representatives of the SDA or

18     the HDZ.  Here we see a decision indicating that persons who occupy

19     particular types of positions can only be Serbian persons.  And I'm

20     clarifying with you that there is no reference here to the fact that such

21     persons may be affiliated to the SDA or the HDZ, which is in square

22     contravention to what you say in your statement.

23        A.   It's a decision by an authority that I am seeing for the first

24     time today.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next

Page 32704

 1     Prosecution exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Mr. Lukic advise that he believes another version of

 4     this may already be in evidence.  I seem to remember that it was raised

 5     with another witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It may well be.

 7             Madam Registrar, before we further address the matter, could you

 8     perhaps check in the e-court system whether this document under its known

 9     65 ter number is already in evidence.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document currently used bearing

11     number 03070 is not admitted.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is not.  Then, Mr. Jeremy, could you please verify

13     whether perhaps under another 65 ter number it is in evidence.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  We will verify that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When do you think you could do that?

16             MR. JEREMY:  In the next 30 minutes I would expect.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll leave it for a moment, and then

18     you'll remind us that you tendered it later after those 30 minutes.

19             Please proceed -- or not remind us.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to move now to a different topic that you

22     discuss in your statement in -- and that's in paragraph 6, and it's the

23     departure of the population from Kljuc.

24             Now in that paragraph, you state:

25             "I solemnly claim that the political leadership of Kljuc urged

Page 32705

 1     all citizens of Kljuc, regardless of their affiliation, to live in peace

 2     with one another."

 3             Now, I want to explore the basis of your knowledge about the

 4     political leadership of Kljuc and their intentions.  Now, were you

 5     familiar with Veljko Kondic, the president of the Municipal Board of the

 6     SDS?

 7        A.   Yes.  That gentleman was the director of the company I worked for

 8     a certain time.

 9        Q.   And did you attend meetings with him?

10        A.   Officially, no.  Until perhaps -- I don't remember exactly.

11     Perhaps the end of 1993 when there were some differences of opinion

12     within the municipality and so there were meetings.  I don't know whether

13     it can be treated as a meeting, but I did attend one session of the

14     Municipal Board of the SDS in Kljuc.  But that was already the second

15     half of 1993, I think.

16        Q.   So did you -- were you yourself a member of this Municipal Board

17     of Kljuc?

18        A.   I was a member of the SDS, but not a member of the board.  At

19     least not at the time when it was established.  But there were some

20     sessions that co-opted extra personnel.  Maybe they didn't have enough

21     people.  For whatever reason, I attended only one session of the

22     Municipal Board.

23        Q.   And were you a member of this board at any time during the war

24     period?

25        A.   Only at that one session.  I was a member.  I know that I was

Page 32706

 1     there.  I don't remember participating in the discussion.  As far as I

 2     remember, there were some other forms of political organisation.  I don't

 3     know for what reason they invited me, but I attended only that one

 4     session.

 5        Q.   And were you also a member of the Kljuc local board?

 6        A.   No.  At the stage of establishment, it's possible that they

 7     needed someone else on the local board.  Maybe they needed some people at

 8     that time, but I don't remember attending sessions of the local board.

 9        Q.   Let's move on.  Now, sir, at the end of this paragraph 6, you

10     say:

11             "I can say with certainty that the policy led by the SDS in Kljuc

12     did not envisage any ethnic cleansing of non-Serb population."

13             Now, in the same paragraph you also refer to panic and chaos in

14     Kljuc, and you say that not only the Muslims and the Croats left but the

15     Serbs did, too, and that everyone could choose whether to go or to stay.

16     Now, focusing on those Muslims that did leave Kljuc, there is evidence in

17     this case that on the 4th of November, 1992, Vinko Kondic informed

18     General Mladic that about 2.000 Muslims were living in Kljuc municipality

19     at the time and that there used to be 17-and-a-half thousand.  And that's

20     P356, page 124.

21             Now, sir, you were aware that such large numbers of non-Serbs, of

22     Muslims were leaving Kljuc during 1992; correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I would notice that only when I would come on home leave.

24     I don't know for what reason, but everyone could see and find out talking

25     to friends that people were leaving.  There were also Muslims, my former

Page 32707

 1     schoolmates, who stayed there throughout the war, and I would inquire

 2     about our common friends.  They would say they left to Czechoslovakia or

 3     Slovenia.  In any case, many people I used to know were no longer there.

 4        Q.   Now, focusing on those persons that left Kljuc, it was the policy

 5     of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly that if you wanted to leave Kljuc, then

 6     you could only do so on the basis that you would agree never to come

 7     back; correct?

 8        A.   I was not aware of such a policy.

 9        Q.   Well, I'd like to look at a document in connection with this.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31892.

11             And while this is coming up on the screens, I will tell the

12     Chamber that this is another version of document D430, tendered by

13     Defence, which we recently looked at in connection with GRM014.

14        Q.   And, sir, we see on the front page that this is a decision made

15     at a session held on the 30th of July, 1992, of the War Presidency of the

16     Kljuc municipality.

17             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to the second page, please.  Sorry,

18     and the third page.  The last page, please.

19        Q.   And we see that the document has a document number and this is

20     dated, unlike Exhibit D430.  And, sir, we see that it's signed or the

21     type signature of the War Presidency president, Jovo Banjac.

22             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go back to the first page, please.

23        Q.   So, sir, directing your attention to article 1 of this decision,

24     we see a reference to voluntary departure of the territory being allowed

25     under certain conditions as determined in this decision.  Now focusing

Page 32708

 1     your attention on article 2, we see that permanent departure with

 2     families shall be allowed to persons who exchanged their real estate with

 3     persons from the areas to which they are moving.  We see the exchange of

 4     real estate must be carried out previously or not later than 3 months

 5     after the move, otherwise Kljuc municipality shall take over the real

 6     estate.

 7             Now, Mr. Volas, would you agree with me that despite the fact

 8     that this decision refers to voluntary departure, if you are only

 9     permitted to depart a place if you agree never to come back to and never

10     to return to your real estate, then such departure cannot be accurately

11     described as voluntary?  Would you agree with that position I'm putting

12     to you?

13        A.   I don't know much about these legal principles.  And I know

14     absolutely nothing about the work of this authority, this War Presidency.

15     My involvement was in military units.  I cannot give you an opinion of

16     whether this is proper or not.  I don't know what to say to this

17     question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, the witness told us that he has no

19     knowledge about a certain policy.  Now you take him to a document on

20     which apparently this policy is subject of a decision, and you start

21     asking him whether the wording here, "voluntary departure," is

22     appropriate in this context.  What ...

23             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, in the witness's statement, in

24     paragraph 6, he states:

25             "As I have already said, everyone could choose whether to go or

Page 32709

 1     to stay."

 2             This document directly impeaches that point, which is why I have

 3     put it to the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the witness saying that he isn't aware

 5     of such a policy, of course, undermines what he says in paragraph 6.  I

 6     mean, where there is no source of knowledge in whatever way, it's a

 7     sweeping statement.  That's it.  And now to analyse with him the language

 8     of the text of the decisions doesn't assist the Chamber.

 9             Please move on.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I tender that document as

11     the next Prosecution exhibit, and I have no further questions for the

12     witness.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31892 receives number P7188.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Jeremy, the 30 minutes are not over yet, I think.  But if you

17     could give us a clue.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I have finished my cross-examination.

19     I have no further questions.  I will --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The 30 minutes -- you said within 30 minutes you

21     would tell us whether a certain document --

22             MR. JEREMY:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- was already in evidence.

24             MR. JEREMY:  I can give you what I hope is more than a clue.  We

25     have not been able to find another version of this document in evidence.

Page 32710

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you tendered it.  Then you stand by it.  If it

 2     turns out to be a mistake, then, of course, we'll later -- we'll hear

 3     from whomever to tell us that it was a mistake.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number to be assigned to 03070

 6     is P7189.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P7189 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Just briefly.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

11        Q.   Sir, at temporary transcript page 50, lines 1 through 6,

12     Judge Orie indicated that you hardly give sources for knowledge you have

13     testified about and question the accuracy of the sources you did testify

14     about.  That is why I want to ask you, when at transcript page 30,

15     line 23, through transcript page 32, line 8, you mentioned reserve

16     policemen who told you about the incident on the 27th of May, can you

17     clarify for us how these reserve policemen knew about the ambush of the

18     police commander on the 27th of May?  Were they physically present at the

19     ambush?

20        A.   No.  That gentleman -- I was on a fishing trip then and I came

21     across him.  We knew each other because we worked for the same company.

22     He came by, said that happened, Duca was killed -- Dusan, nicknamed Duca,

23     and of course we called in the reserve police to report to their units

24     because the situation had deteriorated.  That's all I knew at the moment.

25     At that time he did not mention to me the place where it happened.  I

Page 32711

 1     learned about that later.  And he couldn't even tell me when it had

 2     happened.

 3        Q.   And in relation to the ambush and firing upon the bus carrying

 4     the unarmed JNA personnel, could you clarify for us what sources told you

 5     about that incident so that you became aware of it?

 6        A.   Those elections -- and at that time I have to say the local

 7     Radio Kljuc was still working, and it was during one of my leave times

 8     these elections happened.  And it was all 2 or 2 and a half kilometres

 9     from my home.  Some people were close by and they saw and heard it all,

10     and I myself saw that some of the destroyed trucks were pulled out along

11     the old dirt road.  I saw the buses with blood stains and -- strafed with

12     bullets.  That's one proof that I saw myself.

13        Q.   Now, sir, one point that I'd ask you to clarify.  You've been

14     recorded in the English transcript as saying:

15             "These elections -- and at that time I have to say the local

16     Radio Kljuc was still working, and it was during one of my leave times

17     these elections happened."

18             Did you mean to say "elections" or did you say something other?

19        A.   I meant to say sources of information, if I understood your

20     question well now.

21        Q.   Yes, yes.  So you're using "izvori," not "izbori."  Okay.

22        A.   Precisely.

23        Q.   And if you could tell us in relation to the destroyed trucks that

24     were pulled out along the old dirt road, where was that physical location

25     situated where you saw this?

Page 32712

 1        A.   These were buses, not trucks.  Volasi, the village of Volasi,

 2     that area.  That's the old road leading to Banja Luka.  It was an old

 3     Austrian road.  They were dragged out there because they could not be

 4     used any longer.  And it was obvious that all of that had happened

 5     because of the armed conflict.

 6        Q.   And just to be clear, this location near Volasi, was it your

 7     understanding that the -- strike that.  The vehicles, the buses had been

 8     brought there from some other location where the attack occurred; is that

 9     accurate?  Or did it occur at this location where you viewed the buses?

10        A.   No, no, no, no.  The attack took place when the buses were

11     arriving in Kljuc; that is, from the area of Bosanski Petrovac.  And just

12     before Kljuc, that attack took place.  The buses were probably somehow

13     dragged out of that area so they would not impede traffic.  They were put

14     into this other location.  So it happened a day or two or three later, I

15     don't know, but I saw that as I was passing by.  I saw these buses.

16        Q.   Thank you again, sir, for answering my questions.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that's all the redirect examination

18     that I have.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

20             No further questions by you, Mr. Jeremy?

21             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Judges also have no further questions to

23     you, Mr. Volas, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like to

24     thank you very much for having come to The Hague and for having answered

25     all the questions that were put to you, questions put to you by the

Page 32713

 1     parties, questions put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return

 2     home again and you may now follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  My question to the Defence is whether the Defence is

 6     ready to call its next witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We are just discussing it, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would the Defence be ready to call its next

 9     witness after a break?

10             MR. LUKIC:  This witness came only yesterday, late afternoon, so

11     I did see him for a quite period of time.  And as you know, he's seeking

12     a protective measures, so mostly we spoke about that.  But maybe if I see

13     him, if he would be brought here, and if I see him maybe we can discuss

14     his testimony today but after the break then.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And would you then need a bit of a longer

16     break so that -- well, let's say, that one hour would remain?  We could

17     then take a break of half an hour.

18             MR. LUKIC:  It would be appreciated it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We would then resume at quarter past 1.00 and

20     continue until quarter past 2.00.

21             MR. LUKIC:  That would be appreciated, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I can -- I nevertheless use the time.  But,

23     Mr. Lukic -- well, of course, you're the only one -- only counsel being

24     present, I'll try to do it.  Or unless under special circumstances, the

25     Chamber would allow you to leave and I then read two decisions which will

Page 32714

 1     be then on the record.

 2             Under those circumstances, you are excused.

 3             I see that Mr. Mladic is represented by two members of the

 4     Defence team, Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Sasa Lukic.  And I promise you the only

 5     thing I'll do is to read two decisions.

 6             Yes, I'll start with a decision on the remaining issues with

 7     regard to document D759.

 8             The Chamber will now deal with some remaining issues with regard

 9     to documents D759 tendered during the testimony of Witness Puhalic on the

10     10th of November of last year and currently marked for identification.

11     But first I'd like to note on the record that the transcript of

12     29th of January, 2015, states that the Defence referred to document D758

13     instead of D759.  And the decision is about D759.  This can be found at

14     transcript page 30885.

15             Secondly, on the 10th of February, the Chamber was informed via

16     an e-mail by the Defence that the translations of the two versions of

17     document D759 are now available and have been uploaded into e-court.  The

18     translation of the typewritten version of the statement received

19     doc ID 1D19-1256, and the translation of the handwritten version received

20     doc ID 1D19-1259.

21             The Prosecution replied on the same day via e-mail that it did

22     not have any objections to the translations.

23             And Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to replace the old

24     translations with the two new ones in e-court.

25             In that same e-mail, the Prosecution reiterated its objections to

Page 32715

 1     D759; namely, that the Defence had failed to lay a sufficient foundation

 2     through the witness or otherwise and that the document lacks any stamp,

 3     official mark, and signature.

 4             At the outset, the Chamber considers that the lack of any stamp

 5     or signature does not necessarily bar admission of a document.  In

 6     paragraph 7 of his witness statement, Witness Puhalic mentions, and I

 7     quote:

 8             "A confession statement by Senahid Memic, one of the players in

 9     the illegal import of weapons into BH or the needs of the Muslim side

10     whose trucks loaded with weapons was intercepted by the police in

11     Hrasnica."

12             The witness was not able to provide the Chamber with any further

13     information regarding the statement-taking process, such as how it was

14     collected or who conducted the interview.  In fact, when pressed by the

15     Prosecution on these matters, the witness contradicted himself and gave

16     unclear answers.

17             Further, upon questioning by the Chamber where the document

18     originated from, the Defence merely answered that it was, and I quote,

19     "an exhibit in the Karadzic proceedings."

20             Finally, the Chamber notes that both the handwritten and the

21     typed versions of the document lack any indicia which could corroborate

22     the witness's testimony that it is, in fact, Mr. Memic's confession.

23             Under these circumstances, the Chamber considers that there is

24     not sufficient information before it regarding the provenance of the

25     statement and therefore denies admission of D759 without prejudice.  And

Page 32716

 1     this concludes the Chamber's decision on this matter.

 2             I'll now briefly deal with remaining associated exhibits which

 3     were tendered through Witness Veljko Maric, and we'll deliver the

 4     Chamber's decision on those exhibits.

 5             On the 5th of September, 2014, the Defence filed a motion to

 6     admit the written evidence of Veljko Maric, tendering one witness

 7     statement and three associated exhibits.  In its response of the

 8     19th of September, 2014, the Prosecution objected to the admission of all

 9     associated exhibits as it does not consider them to be essential to

10     understand the witness's evidence.  The associated exhibits are

11     Rule 65 ter numbers 1D4415, 1D4416, and 1D4417.

12             The Chamber admitted the statement into evidence on the

13     29th of September, 2014, as Exhibit D730.  The Chamber will now consider

14     the admission of the associated exhibits.

15             The Chamber recalls that the case law with regard to the

16     admission of associated exhibits pursuant to Rules 92 bis, 92 ter, and

17     92 quater, establishes that documents can be admitted if they form an

18     inseparable and indispensable part of the witness's written testimony.

19     In order to satisfy this test, the tendering party must demonstrate that

20     the witness's statement would be incomprehensible or of a less probative

21     value without the admission into evidence of the associated exhibits in

22     question.

23             The Chamber finds that none of the three associated exhibits meet

24     the above test.  In fact, paragraphs 12 to 14 and 21 to 22 of the

25     witness's statement are fully comprehensible and probative without

Page 32717

 1     reference to the two associated exhibits bearing 65 ter numbers 1D4415

 2     and 1D4416.

 3             Similarly, the Chamber considers paragraph 23 to be

 4     comprehensible and probative without the admission of the associated

 5     exhibit bearing 65 ter number 1D4417.

 6             The Chamber therefore denies the admission of all three

 7     aforementioned associated exhibits.  And this concludes the Chamber's

 8     decision on this matter.

 9             We take the break and will resume at quarter past 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that you would

13     like to raise the issue of protective measures again.

14             MR. LUKIC:  You said "again"?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have decided on it, isn't it?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I have our motions.  I don't have the decision.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I have a look at the decision.  The motion is

18     denied.  So -- and that decision is of the 24th of February, so you

19     couldn't claim that you did not have sufficient time.  Therefore, we

20     would like to move on.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, then I misinformed the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll inform him.  And perhaps we should do

23     that in private session.  But, again, we have decided on the motion.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Then ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 32718

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read to you, Mr. Lukic, the decision.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We are in open session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.  Yes.  We'll first turn into

 4     private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32719











11  Pages 32719-32723 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32724

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session now.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             We'll have a very short adjournment of approximately

22     five minutes.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are awaiting your report, and whether

Page 32725

 1     we'd receive that in open or in private session is up to you.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We can now receive it in open session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We are calling the next witness, Mr. Milos Solaja.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

 6     courtroom.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Solaja, I presume.  Before you

 9     give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration of

10     which the text is now handed out to you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  MILOS SOLAJA

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Solaja.  Please be seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Solaja, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

18     You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Solaja.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   For the record, would you tell us your full name?

25        A.   Milos Solaja is my full name.

Page 32726

 1        Q.   Have you at one point in time given a statement to the Defence

 2     team of General Mladic?

 3        A.   Yes, I have.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D1739, please.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Solaja, you see before you on the screen the

 6     first page of a document.  Do you recognise the signature?

 7        A.   Yes, it's mine.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the last page of this document, please.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Solaja, this is the last page of the

10     document.  Do you recognise the signature?

11        A.   Yes.  It's mine.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the month in the date?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you tell us, do you see the date of the statement?

15        A.   Yes.  11 June 2014.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Does this statement correctly reflect what you

19     stated to the Defence team of General Mladic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Are the things contained here truthful and accurate?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you give

24     me the same answers?

25        A.   Completely the same.

Page 32727

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1739 receives number D924.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D924 is admitted.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will just read short

 7     summary and I will not have any questions for this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10             As a member of the rocket artillery brigade, Milos Solaja was in

11     the theatre of war of the Republic of Croatia, and since 18th of July,

12     1992, he was at the press centre of the 1st Krajina Corps, which had a

13     mixed ethnic composition throughout the war.

14             He was the editor-in-chief of the Krajiski Vojnik military

15     magazine of the 1st Krajina Corps and the editor of the "Na Braniku

16     Otadzbine" TV show, and the "Na Braniku Krajine" radio show.

17             He received and guided foreign journalists in the zone of the

18     1st Krajina Corps, which were free to go wherever they wanted in the

19     zone, from the Manjaca camp to the collection centre of Trnopolje and

20     investigative centres of Omarska and Keraterm, which shows that there was

21     no concealment and that the army did not secure Omarska and Keraterm

22     centres.

23             Also, he will testify that there was no nests around Trnopolje,

24     machine-gun nests.  And there was no barbed wire that surrounded or

25     encompassed Trnopolje collection centre.  Mr. Solaja was present when

Page 32728

 1     Ms. Penny Marshall made the footage of detainees in Trnopolje, filming

 2     from the enclosed area people who were in the open.

 3             And that would be a short statement summary, Your Honours.  And

 4     we do not, as I mentioned, have questions for this witness.

 5             I did not provide copies of this to the booth because I did not

 6     expect to start in this way.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Copies of your summary, you mean?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is understood.

10             Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

11             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Solaja, you'll now be cross-examined by

13     Mr. Traldi.  You find him to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry for interrupting, only if we could give the

16     statement to the witness in hard copy.  First to be shown to the

17     Prosecution, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

22        A.   Good afternoon, esteemed Prosecutor.

23        Q.   Sir, I wanted to start by clarifying one matter that Mr. Lukic

24     mentioned in the summary of your evidence.  My understanding of your

25     statement is that you were not present at Trnopolje on the visit when

Page 32729

 1     prisoners were filmed behind barbed wire, but that you were present on

 2     another visit two days later.  Have I correctly understood your evidence?

 3        A.   Yes, correct.

 4        Q.   And on that visit on the 7th of August, 1992, you went to Omarska

 5     as well as Trnopolje; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You mentioned Keraterm in your statement.  Is it your evidence

 8     that you personally went to Keraterm on that date?

 9        A.   Yes, with a group of foreign journalists.  Mainly British and

10     German.

11        Q.   Now, is that the only date when you visited any of those

12     facilities?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So your comments about the facilities in terms of your personal

15     knowledge are based on the knowledge you acquired during those visits;

16     right?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now for the moment to your evidence about

19     the 1st Krajina Corps Press Centre.  Now, the press centre was part of

20     the corps' organ for legal, morale, and religious affairs; right?

21        A.   That's correct.  That was the official name.

22        Q.   When you served in the press centre, who was your superior

23     officer?

24        A.   Throughout the time, it was Major, later

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Milovan Milutinovic.

Page 32730

 1        Q.   And who was his superior?

 2        A.   His superior was Colonel Milutin Vukelic.

 3        Q.   And the press centre was based in the same building as the

 4     1st Krajina Corps command; right?

 5        A.   No.  That press centre was in the building next door, the former

 6     house of the JNA, later hall of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Today, it

 7     is being put to civilian use as the national house of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   In your role in the press centre, you worked with foreign

 9     journalists.  Now you also made an effort to monitor foreign media,

10     particularly, foreign media coverage of events in the 1st Krajina Corps'

11     area of responsibility; right?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And the press centre had an analytical group, including you and

14     Major Milutinovic, who worked on monitoring foreign media; right?

15        A.   I was not in the analytical group.  I followed foreign media

16     strictly for professional reasons, to follow political movements on the

17     international arena.

18        Q.   Now, you say you were not in the analytical group.  Who was?

19        A.   That group varied in composition.  We didn't have systematic

20     monitoring of all information but only political implications of various

21     reports in international media.  We did not put out any information for

22     further use except for our own professional use, at least as far as I

23     know.

24        Q.   Sir, I appreciate that detail, but you haven't precisely answered

25     the question.  Who was a member of that analytical group, if you recall?

Page 32731

 1        A.   I think it was my colleague, Mr. Radmanovic.

 2        Q.   And Mr. Radmanovic, was he also an officer in the 1st Krajina

 3     Corps in the press centre?

 4        A.   Yes, like all the rest.  I mean, not all of them were officers,

 5     but they were mobilised, recruited according to their war assignments

 6     into the press centre.  Some of them used to be in different units

 7     before, but they joined this group later.

 8        Q.   And when you say this information was for your professional use,

 9     one of the professional uses it was put to was that the superior

10     officers, Major Milutinovic and Colonel Vukelic, were kept apprised of

11     relevant foreign media; right?

12        A.   Of course.  That's customary.  It's about political analysis.

13     It's public information available to everyone.  We just summarised it.

14        Q.   Now, the press centre of the 1st Krajina Corps also published

15     bulletins; right?

16        A.   In fact, there was a bulletin of the 5th Banja Luka Corps of the

17     JNA, then it became the bulletin of the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska.  And beginning with issue number 11, it was called

19     "The Soldier of Krajina," and these were public media, public

20     information.  It was distributed across the units of the 1st Krajina

21     Corps.

22        Q.   In that bulletin, the press centre published articles asserting,

23     for instance, that the Serbian people had to organise militarily to

24     protect its ethnic identity; right?

25        A.   Well, there was that kind of thinking, too.  But it falls in

Page 32732

 1     under an absolute debate about the future of ethnic identity.  There were

 2     different ideas also published by "The Soldier of Krajina," because we

 3     were -- I mean, there were intellectuals from that area who also

 4     publicised their views which didn't always coincide with the prevailing

 5     political views and all that has been proved.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32142.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  I kindly ask counsel to release the document in

 8     e-court.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'll be relying on my colleague, of course, for

10     which we're probably all better off.

11        Q.   Now, what we see on the screen, this is the 1st Krajina Corps

12     bulletin from 28 June 1992.  We see an article entitled:  "Defending

13     Krajina."  And in the first paragraph of the text, we read:

14             "The decision of the FRY to pull the JNA out of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina and the many failures in the organisation and execution of

16     the combat operations in the Serbian Republic of Krajina, forced the

17     Serbian people to organise themselves for defence and thus to protect

18     their own ethnic identity."

19             So this is an example of the bulletin publishing an article

20     asserting that the Serbian people had to organise militarily to protect

21     their ethnic identity; right?

22        A.   I don't understand the question.  Could you be more precise?

23     Should I comment on the content of the bulletin and this article or the

24     fact that it was published?  I'm asking this question because I came to

25     the press centre of the 1st Krajina Corps 17 days later.

Page 32733

 1        Q.   Sir, you understand this to be a publication of the 1st Krajina

 2     Corps press centre, the 1st Krajina Corps bulletin; right?

 3        A.   Yes, of course.

 4        Q.   And in this issue of a publication by the 1st Krajina Corps press

 5     centre, it is publishing the assertion that the Serbian people have to

 6     organise militarily to protect their ethnic identity; right?

 7        A.   Well, that claim was published.  I cannot deny that.  I did not

 8     write this.

 9        Q.   And we will look at, I expect, an article or two that you have

10     written yourself, but we may look at other articles from the press

11     centre.  If I'm asserting that you wrote an article yourself, I'll

12     identify that at the beginning of my questions about that article so that

13     you're aware.  But otherwise, you can take it that we're not asserting

14     you wrote it yourself.

15             While this is on the screen, the press centre co-operated closely

16     with the civilian press including, for instance, Glas and Banja Luka

17     Television; right?

18        A.   Right.

19        Q.   And part of the press centre's mission was to gather and document

20     evidence of crimes against Serbs; right?

21        A.   We did not have that mission officially.  Only that information

22     that became available to us within the framework of our normal

23     journalistic work.  For that kind of analysis and gathering of

24     documentation, there were other institutions.  But as journalists, we

25     certainly did come by some information.

Page 32734

 1             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 2 in the English in the middle

 2     of the page, and the top of the fourth column in page 1 in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   We read that, in pertinent part:

 4             "According to the changes that have taken place in the

 5     1st Krajina Corps, co-operation with the Press Centre of the 1st Krajina

 6     Corps is going on.  Its basic task is to gather important news about the

 7     life, work, and combat operations of the Corps and to present it to the

 8     local and world public ..."

 9             And it explains that this will create conditions for objective

10     monitoring of the activities of the Army of the Serbian Republic of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It then says:

12             "During the last year of the war, almost 300 reporters, cameramen

13     and photojournalists from 52 local and 53 world agencies passed through

14     the Press Centre, speaking of the genocide against the Serbian people and

15     showing a very different picture about the causes of the war and its

16     consequences ..."

17             And at the end of the next paragraph, we read that:

18             "The centre has turned into the centre for the gathering of

19     appropriate testimonies about the genocide against the Serbian people,

20     which is presented in a proper way to the domestic and world public ..."

21             That was part of the centre's mission, wasn't it?

22        A.   As I said, at that time I wasn't there and I did not participate

23     in writing this text.  Although I agree with the professional part, where

24     the press centre served as a service for communicating with the public,

25     and in that role, it enabled both domestic and professional media to do

Page 32735

 1     their job as professionally as possible.  And I did not take part at all

 2     in defining the role of the press centre as I said.  I joined later.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm not accusing you of defining the role of the press

 4     centre, to whatever extent that would be an accusation.  What I'm asking

 5     you is:  You're aware, weren't you, that part of the press centre's job

 6     was to record information about crimes against Serbs and communicate that

 7     information to the international media, among others; right?

 8        A.   Of course.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 32142.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7190.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32144.

15        Q.   As it comes up, this is an article from Krajiski Vojnik dated

16     June 1993.  And this one will reflect that it's authored by you.

17        A.   Could we make it a bit larger?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Any specific portion, Mr. Traldi, you would like to

19     focus on?

20             MR. TRALDI:  I would.  If we could have page 2 in the English and

21     right-most column of page 1 in the B/C/S.  And as we turn in the English,

22     this will be an interview with General Talic, the corps commander,

23     entitled:  "Serbs are the noblest people."

24        Q.   And we see that you are asking him about Operation Corridor.

25     First, in your question --

Page 32736

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the part in B/C/S be still further enlarged.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  It's in the middle of the last -- of the right-most

 3     column in the B/C/S.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And we just should zoom in only on the middle part

 5     of the most-right column and perhaps enlarge that even more.  Yes.  This

 6     is what you --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  That's what my notes reflect, so hopefully ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well ...

 9             MR. TRALDI:  It may actually -- I may actually have one question

10     after the one that I meant to have.  I see the reference to Operation

11     Corridor but I think it's the previous question about Operation Corridor

12     and I apologise.

13             So if we could move one column to the left.  And scroll down.

14     I'll return to the topic when my notes are a little bit more precise on

15     this.

16        Q.   And I'll return, in our brief time remaining today, sir, to your

17     visit to Prijedor.  To get from Banja Luka to Prijedor you went through

18     the Kozarac area; right?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   What did you see when you passed through there?

21        A.   We saw destroyed houses.

22        Q.   And destroyed and damaged mosques; right?

23        A.   Those were ruins.  I did not distinguish between the two.

24        Q.   And Ostoja Barasin, one of your colleagues, he went on the same

25     visit you did, right?

Page 32737

 1        A.   Barasin.

 2        Q.   I appreciate you correcting my pronunciation.  Sorry, go ahead,

 3     sir.

 4        A.   I mean, no, we never went together.

 5        Q.   Now, you mentioned -- or -- you mentioned you also went to

 6     Omarska.  Were you aware that reporters had previously been denied access

 7     to Omarska by the press centre?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can P2890 be brought to the screen.

10        Q.   This is an article by Roy Gutman, who you discuss in your

11     statement, entitled:  "There is No Food, There is No Air."

12             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2 in both languages.

13        Q.   We read in the third paragraph from the bottom in both languages:

14             "Military authorities and the local Red Cross acknowledged the

15     existence of a camp at Omarska but rebuffed requests to visit it.  'There

16     are places where Muslim extremists have been gathered,' said

17     Major Milovan Milutinovic," who it describes as "the spokesman for the

18     former Yugoslav Army, which has renamed itself the Serbian Army of

19     Bosnia."

20             And then it quotes him as saying:

21             "'But I think they have already been moved.'"

22             Now, this is dated the 19th of July, 1992.  You're aware, as you

23     sit there today, that there were still a large number of prisoners at

24     Omarska on the 19th of July; right?

25        A.   I don't know whether there were many.  I saw some when I visited

Page 32738

 1     on the 7th of August.

 2        Q.   And does this refresh your recollection as to whether before your

 3     visit, officers from the 1st Krajina Corps Press Centre had rebuffed

 4     journalists' requests to visit Omarska camp?

 5        A.   I don't know about that because I was not directly involved in

 6     issuing permits for their movement in the area of responsibility of the

 7     1st Krajina Corps.  Because my profession as journalist, I worked

 8     strictly in that job.

 9        Q.   But you certainly --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could I seek clarification of one of the

11     previous answers.

12             You said you saw some prisoners in Omarska on the 7th of August.

13     Do you have any knowledge about, well, let's say, ten days before that

14     date or -- about numbers of prisoners in Omarska?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   You said you weren't directly involved in issuing permits.

19     Certainly having accompanied journalists on visits to camps, you were

20     aware journalists required permits from the press centre; right?

21        A.   That's right.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see the time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so do I.

24             Mr. Solaja, we will adjourn for the day.  And since we never sit

25     on Friday, we'll only recommence on next Monday, 9.30 in the morning.  We

Page 32739

 1     would like to see you back then.  But before you leave this courtroom, I

 2     would like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in

 3     whatever possible way about your testimony, whether that is testimony

 4     you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be given on from

 5     Monday.  If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day and we'll resume Monday,

 9     the 9th of March, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day

12                           of March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.