Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32740

 1                           Monday, 9 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are a few preliminary matters to be dealt with.

12             Mr. Lukic, I think you still owe us a response.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             In regard of D899, we were instructed by the Chamber to inquire

15     about the date and the place of this video.  This video of ours is an

16     excerpt from 65 ter 22615, which is uploaded as 65 ter exhibit by the

17     Prosecution.  The excerpt is marked as 1D03160.  And it's only from the

18     time of 14 minutes, 35 seconds, up to 16 minutes, 9 seconds from the same

19     video.

20             I spoke with Mr. Traldi and we concluded that the same video was

21     taped -- actually, this part -- the whole video starts sometime before,

22     but this part was taped on the 5th of August, 1992, since it's obvious

23     that we can see Ms. Marshall in that video.  So that's how we concluded

24     that it has to be 5th of August, 1992.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 32741

 1             MR. LUKIC:  That's all we -- the Defence could discover by now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Lukic.

 3             There were a few preliminary matters to be raised by the

 4     Prosecution as well.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  First, I have owed you for some time a response to

 8     your inquiry about the timing of the reopening, specifically with respect

 9     to May and June.  In the interim, we have checked, and that timing

10     presents no problem for the Prosecution with the tiny exception, and that

11     is if the Court wanted to begin in May and run without interruption to

12     the conclusion of the reopening, there might be a scheduling issue with

13     one witness who was not available, I think, in the first week and third

14     week of May but is available in June.

15             So if that wasn't particularly a concern, we could commence in

16     May.  And even if we didn't find ourselves with a sufficient window in

17     May for that witness, we'd pick him up again in June.  But in any event,

18     that's the status.  So May and June is fine.

19             Secondly, I wanted to respond in connection with the Defence

20     request for an adjournment at Easter.  As a general matter, the

21     Prosecution takes no position on that and leaves it to the Chamber.  It

22     did occur to us, however, that there was one aspect of scheduling that

23     did not implicate the concerns about disrupting witnesses' Easter and

24     could nevertheless go forward, and that is with respect to two remaining

25     videolinks in the Banja Luka area.

Page 32742

 1             It occurred to the Prosecution that if those, for example, were

 2     scheduled on the Friday of the week that is proposed for the adjournment,

 3     it wouldn't require the witnesses to travel on or about Easter, which

 4     seemed to the basis of Mr. Lukic's concern.  They could remain in situ

 5     and the videolinks could take place on Friday.  The only people

 6     travelling presumably would be those who would not concerned about -- or

 7     at least as much concerned about the timing of the holiday.

 8             Now, that's not to take a position one way or another as I say.

 9     It seems to me that, one way or the another, that's a useful scheduling

10     issue to bear in mind, but it seemed particularly pertinent to note in

11     light of the matter the Court is currently considering.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Tieger.

13             Mr. Lukic, especially in relation to the last point, any comment?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I spoke with Mr. Tieger this morning, and I said that

15     we will try to do whatever is possible to have this arranged.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the Chamber is still considering your

17     request, so therefore it's --

18             MR. LUKIC:  And regarding the first topic, the reopening of the

19     OTP case.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I think its obvious and everybody is aware the

22     Defence did not have time to deal with this new case of the Prosecution

23     or new part of the case by the Prosecution, so we will file our -- now

24     when we have the position of the OTP that May and June is not a problem

25     for them, then we will have to ask for an interruption of trial and we'll

Page 32743

 1     ask for some time to be given to the Defence to prepare for this segment

 2     so -- since we did not have time to work on that segment at all by now.

 3     And it requires -- first of all, technically we have to ask the Registry

 4     to allow us to have extra expert witnesses, for example, to respond to

 5     the OTP.  But first we have to see what there is.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But this matter is pending now for such a long time.

 7     If you make any further submissions, the Chamber would also like to know

 8     exactly what you've done until now to -- I mean, the experts are known

 9     for ages.  Some of the experts are well known as far as their expertise

10     is concerned, et cetera.  So therefore, the Chamber wonders what

11     anticipatory action you've taken until today, because you could expect

12     that it would be somewhere around this time.  Otherwise, to put such a

13     matter at the end of the Defence case, of course, was not what was

14     intended by either the Prosecution or would not be expected by the

15     Defence, I would say.

16             So therefore, make your submissions, Mr. Lukic, but also make

17     clear what you've done until now, because asking for a postponement just

18     on the basis of what still has to be done if all opportunities -- if

19     opportunities have been missed what could have been done, that is still a

20     matter to be considered.

21             I leave it to that for the time being.  I don't draw any

22     conclusions.  I'm just pointing at what the Chamber would like to know if

23     you make further submissions asking for a postponement.

24             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, Your Honour, I just wanted to add that the

25     opportunities have not been missed.  We do not have manpower to deal with

Page 32744

 1     anything else but with the Defence case we are dealing right now.  We

 2     don't have means at all to deal with something extra.  All our efforts

 3     are only in align with providing the Defence witnesses for this trial.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if you --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  So all our staff is succumbed.  And you could notice

 6     that even in January we missed several dead-lines because we were not

 7     able to follow the trial itself in the speed it goes, and we did not have

 8     time to deal with the reopening of the Prosecution case.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if we will spend time on hearing the

10     reopening of the Prosecution's case, that means that for that period of

11     time you will not have to prepare for the witnesses you had in mind

12     earlier to present during that period of time.  I mean, they will be

13     postponed as well.  So part of your burden on your shoulders will be

14     postponed as a consequence of hearing the Prosecution's case.

15             But again, this is not, perhaps, the best moment to discuss it in

16     detail.  But I just wanted to draw your attention to what may be

17     considered relevant by the Chamber.  We'll hear further submissions.

18     Thank you.

19             If there are no further preliminaries, could the witness be

20     escorted into the courtroom.

21             Perhaps I could already deal with one matter briefly.  The

22     Chamber understands that the Defence still needs to file five expert

23     reports:  Two drafted by ballistic experts, one by a historian, one by a

24     forensic pathologist, and finally, one drafted by a radio communications

25     expert.

Page 32745

 1             Is the Defence in a position to provide the Chamber and the

 2     Prosecution with an update on the drafting and the filing?

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear from you later today.

 5             Good morning, Mr. Solaja.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Solaja, I would like to remind you that you are

 8     still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of

 9     your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

10     nothing but the truth.  And Mr. Traldi will now continue his

11     cross-examination.

12             Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           WITNESS:  MILOS SOLAJA [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.

18        A.   Good morning, esteemed Prosecutor.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 32144.

20        Q.   Now, what we see here is an interview with General Talic authored

21     by yourself.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And if we can turn to page 2 in the English and the

23     first column of page 1 in the B/C/S, the first bolded question, if we

24     could zoom in there.

25        Q.   We see you ask General Talic about Operation Corridor, and I have

Page 32746

 1     some very short questions about this exchange.

 2             First, in your question you refer to what you describe as a

 3     monstrous intention to cut off the majority of Serbs from their

 4     motherland.  By "their motherland" you mean Serbia; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, in his answer beginning in the fifth line of that answer in

 7     the English, General Talic says:

 8             "Our people have succeeded in something that eluded numerous

 9     generations from the battle of Kosovo to the present day.  They secured a

10     unified living space for the Serbian people."

11             And General Talic is speaking of the territory controlled by the

12     VRS as a living space for Serbs; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And he says in the next sentence that this was a decisive

15     operation for the Serbian people in the Krajinas who had been separated

16     from the motherland and threatened with complete annihilation.  First,

17     when he refers to the "Krajinas," plural, he's referring to both the

18     Bosnian Krajina and the Knin Krajina; right?

19        A.   Yes, there is no other.

20        Q.   And second, it's right, isn't it, that Krajiski Vojnik published

21     articles asserting that the Serbian people in the ARK and in the

22     Knin Krajina were threatened with complete annihilation and fighting for

23     their very survival; right?

24        A.   Right.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 32144.

Page 32747

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32144 receives number P7191.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   I want to turn now, sir, to events in Banja Luka.  First, you

 6     discuss the departures of Croats and Muslims from Banja Luka in your

 7     statement, and you say those were organised by civilian authorities and

 8     the VRS did not participate in that process.  In fact, the

 9     1st Krajina Corps' view was that the civilian authorities should work

10     harder at the departure of the Croatian and Muslim population from

11     Banja Luka; right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Well, can P --

14        A.   No, we never had such instructions.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P3714.  This is a daily combat report by

16     the 1st Krajina Corps dated the 28th of July, 1992.  If we could have

17     page 2 in the B/C/S but stay on page 1 in the English.  Sorry, if we

18     could have the next page in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   Under point 3, we read:

20             "In the city of Banja Luka and other large towns, there is an

21     increased demand for, and organisation of, the departure of Croatian and

22     Muslim population.  We consider that the municipal and regional

23     authorities should work much harder at this."

24             Now, that was the 1st Krajina Corps' position, that the regional

25     and municipal authorities should work much harder at organising these

Page 32748

 1     departures, wasn't it?

 2        A.   This document was not accessible to me.  It is one of the

 3     confidential documents that we never had access to, but no one ever gave

 4     us an instruction like this.

 5        Q.   And the Chamber has received evidence that during the war tens of

 6     thousands of Muslims and Croats left Banja Luka municipality.  You're

 7     aware of that; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I want to turn now to your discussion --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Solaja, part of the problem may be that you were

13     asked what the view of the 1st Krajina Corps was, and your answer was:

14     "No, we never had such instructions."  Now, you were not asked about

15     receiving instructions but you were asked about the views of the

16     Krajina Corps.

17             Now, if you don't know or if you have not complete information,

18     please tell us that you may not have known the views of the 1st Krajina

19     Corps, because there is a -- the question and the answer do not connect

20     very well.

21             Please proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is in this document is one of

23     the regular daily papers that circulated in the chain of command, and

24     such information was not presented to us, and nothing else was binding

25     upon us except for an official position which was never given to us in

Page 32749

 1     that way.  We never knew that, we never had instructions like that, that

 2     we would write about something like that, and that can be seen from the

 3     content of the newspaper.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that you may not have had access

 5     to complete information to answer this question with every detail.

 6             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I want to turn now to your evidence about the civilian

 9     authorities in the Banja Luka area.  The Trial Chamber has received

10     evidence about the rhetoric used by some members of the civilian

11     authorities in the ARK, particularly Mr. Brdjanin.  You were aware, for

12     instance, that Brdjanin had said in public that only a thousand elderly

13     Muslims could stay in Banja Luka to sweep the streets; right?

14        A.   At that time, I wasn't there at that most critical point in time.

15     I heard something like that, but I cannot say that I heard it myself.  I

16     couldn't even follow the media because of lack of physical contact.  The

17     28th of July, I wasn't there until then.

18        Q.   You remained in Banja Luka.  That's where you were based for the

19     rest of the war after that; right?

20        A.   Yes, I was born there.

21        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that in 1994 - and I'm

22     referring to P6976 - at a rally, Mr. Brdjanin announced or stated in

23     pertinent part that non-Serbs were befouling Serb soil.  You're aware of

24     statements like that that he continued to make while you were in

25     Banja Luka; right?

Page 32750

 1        A.   That was a party rally.  I remember that.  I did not belong to

 2     the party.  I didn't participate in that.  At the same time, people who

 3     lived in Republika Srpska -- well, it was almost impossible for them to

 4     move somewhere else.

 5        Q.   Now, you don't mention Mr. Brdjanin or his rhetoric in your

 6     statement; right?

 7        A.   No.  I had no contact with him.  He represented the civilian

 8     structures.

 9        Q.   Now, you do mention Predrag Radic.  And in paragraph 34 of your

10     statement, you assert that Radic wanted to keep Muslims from leaving

11     Banja Luka.  I have a few questions in this regard.  But first, it's

12     correct, isn't it, that you have mentioned the views of a political

13     leader who, in your understanding, wanted to keep the Muslims from

14     leaving, you have not included in your statement the views of political

15     leaders who were calling for the Muslims to leave; right?

16        A.   That's correct.  That's because I had very good contacts on a

17     personal level with Mr. Radic, and I knew his positions very well and I

18     referred to them in this statement, not only in terms of the departure of

19     Muslims, Croats too, and also his position that after the war the area of

20     the former Yugoslavia would be linked up once again in the economic field

21     and in other fields, which is indeed what happened.  As for other

22     civilian representatives, I didn't have that much contact with them.

23        Q.   Now, your view of Mr. Radic based on those contacts was that he

24     was an honourable man; right?

25        A.   Yes, absolutely.

Page 32751

 1        Q.   And your view was that he was an honest man; right?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence from Mr. Radic in the form

 4     of his testimony in the Krajisnik case, and he stated, for instance, that

 5     President Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik had blamed him for not having

 6     expelled non-Serbs from Banja Luka, that that left too many non-Serbs

 7     remaining there to feed and give medical care.  Were you aware of those

 8     positions of the Republika Srpska leadership relative to Mr. Radic's

 9     attitude towards non-Serbs?

10        A.   He was under constant pressure from people who were at the

11     political top and who were more radical, and he tried to soften the

12     situation.  I don't know about concrete events and concrete rhetoric, but

13     I know that he had problems.

14        Q.   When you say people at the political top, who do you mean?

15        A.   Well, I mean many people from the region and from the republic

16     who were not satisfied with his approach.

17        Q.   Can you give us an example of the people from the republic level

18     you're referring to?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  I didn't really deal with this in depth.  I

20     knew that there were these tensions.

21        Q.   And Mr. Radic's evidence was that because of these pressures, he

22     couldn't openly assist non-Serbs even if he would have wanted to.  Were

23     you aware of that?

24        A.   Well, that's what he said.  But he did help.  He helped in a

25     great many specific cases.  That was the way in which he was able to

Page 32752

 1     help, because the pressure was pretty big and he didn't dare speak about

 2     this openly.  This was a time of war and these democratic methods did not

 3     always work in favour of people who implemented them.

 4        Q.   And you referred to the destruction of mosques in your statement.

 5     His evidence was that members of the Bosnian Serb leadership and their

 6     emissaries had criticised him because the mosques in Banja Luka were

 7     still standing.  Were you also aware of that?

 8        A.   Yes, I was aware of that.

 9        Q.   Now, in this context, sir, you describe --

10             MR. TRALDI:  And I have no more questions on that topic, unless

11     the Chamber does.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I -- there is one item I'd like to briefly

13     address.

14             You said you were very close to Mr. Radic.  He told that he was

15     blamed by Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic.  He never told you who they

16     were that criticised him?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It was better not to

18     publish or announce such issues in public.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you were close to him, he may have told

20     you, Well, this is what happens, but don't publish it, which is not

21     uncommon in the journalistic world, isn't it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we were not doing it for

23     professional reasons.  This was a purely private contact.  Because it was

24     impossible to have something like that published at that time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I --

Page 32753

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Krajina Soldier, we did

 2     publish some criticism including that against the very leadership of

 3     Republika Srpska.  I may mention the interview of the minister for

 4     veterans issues, Dragan Djokanovic, who openly criticised

 5     Radovan Karadzic about certain issues.  However, due to issues of

 6     personal security this was quite limited.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's exactly for that reason - you said, I was

 8     close, it was all private conversations - that I sought verification that

 9     Mr. Radic never told you that this blame was expressed by Mr. Karadzic

10     and/or by Mr. Krajisnik.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably he wanted to protect

12     others, not only me, and that was probably the reason that he didn't talk

13     about this openly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It also means, does it, that you have no reason to

15     have any doubt if Mr. Radic later told us that or told us that he gave

16     statements or testimony that it was at the level of Mr. Karadzic and

17     Mr. Krajisnik?  You have no reason to doubt the accuracy of such

18     information, do you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't doubt his statements.

20     He was a very honourable man.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sticking with the topic of the civilian authorities in

24     Banja Luka, you described the disbanding of the ARK Crisis Staff in

25     paragraphs 26 through 28 of your statement.  Now, after the ARK

Page 32754

 1     Crisis Staff was abolished, its members who held high positions in the

 2     government and the army all kept their jobs; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you say in paragraph 27 that Miro Mladjenovic, the author of

 5     Glas, asked you to help have the Crisis Staff abolished and you published

 6     an article in this regard.  In fact, immediately after the article you

 7     published, Mladjenovic was fired as editor of Glas; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  But that was for some quite different reasons.

 9        Q.   Well --

10        A.   The Crisis Staffs did not have any impact on this.

11        Q.   That decision was taken by the ARK War Presidency and confirmed

12     by the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly; right?

13        A.   Yes, as the official founder of this paper.

14        Q.   And the president of the ARK War Presidency, do you recall who

15     that was?

16        A.   I think that the ARK had a government.  It had the assembly and

17     the government but not a War Presidency.

18        Q.   Well, the president of the assembly was Vojo Kupresanin; right?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   And the vice-president, who was that?

21        A.   I don't remember.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32201.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to inquire, is this document on the list?

24             MR. TRALDI:  We sent an updated list Friday specifically calling

25     attention in our e-mail to this document.

Page 32755

 1        Q.   And on the right of the page in the B/C/S, we see an article

 2     called:  "How to Remove the Traces?"  It's headlined:  "Banja Luka,

 3     10 July."  And it starts:

 4             "Two high-ranking AR Krajina officials, Vojo Kupresanin, Assembly

 5     President, and Radoslav Brdjanin, Vice-President, held a selective press

 6     conference yesterday inviting to it only broadcasting media, Banja Luka

 7     Radio, and Banja Luka Television."

 8             First, does that refresh your recollection as to the

 9     vice-president of the assembly?

10        A.   Yes, now it does.  But still I don't have this perception that it

11     was Brdjanin, because mostly it was Mr. Kupresanin who was at the fore.

12        Q.   Well, we see related to Mr. Kupresanin's role, we see

13     Mr. Brdjanin speak about that at what I think is the bottom of the column

14     in the B/C/S, and he says, among other things:

15             "A minister of information in the AR Krajina government will be

16     appointed very soon, and until then his duties will be performed by

17     Vojo Kupresanin who I am sure will make a marvellous job of it."

18             Had Mladjenovic previously served as minister of information in

19     the ARK?

20        A.   As far as I remember, he did.  But there is something else.  The

21     government of the ARK was never completed.  It only had four ministries

22     where everyone was appointed.  I don't know exactly which ones they were,

23     but I know that it was never really complete.

24        Q.   And Mr. Kupresanin and Mr. Brdjanin, they were both members of

25     the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

Page 32756

 1        A.   I know about Brdjanin, and I'm not sure about Kupresanin.

 2        Q.   So what I'm putting to you is:  The members of the ARK

 3     Crisis Staff, as you testified, kept their high positions in the

 4     government and the army, Mladjenovic was fired, and these are important

 5     parts of understanding the abolition of the Crisis Staff that you have

 6     not informed the Chamber of in your statement.  You've not provided a

 7     full picture of those events.  That's the truth, right?

 8        A.   Well, I was not involved nor did I particularly follow the events

 9     that had to do both with the ARK Krajina and also what happened after the

10     Crisis Staff had been abolished.  The Crisis Staff came into existence

11     because some people became its members due to their official positions,

12     but there was a great danger that it might become a power outside of the

13     system.  That was the reason why I personally participated as a

14     journalist in leaving out something that's not part of the system from

15     the decision-making process.  I think that we succeeded in this and that

16     it was very useful for that period.

17             Let me remind you that Republika Srpska itself came into

18     existence after the decision or, rather, the process in which three

19     ethnic groups could not reach an agreement about the future of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Sir --

22        A.   This was just the beginning of the creation of institutions.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm going to interrupt you.  You've gone well beyond the

24     question I asked.  I just have one question to follow-up on your answer.

25     Is it your evidence that somehow the ARK Crisis Staff, which included the

Page 32757

 1     highest leaders of the ARK Assembly, the 1st Krajina Corps commander, and

 2     the head of CSB Banja Luka, that this was somehow an institution that

 3     wasn't part of the system?  Is that your evidence?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32201 receives number P7192.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Next, sir, you say there were no camps in Banja Luka for Muslims

11     and Croats and then you discuss Manjaca.  The people detained in Manjaca

12     were Muslims and Croats obviously; right?

13        A.   That's correct.  But when I say in Banja Luka, I mean that there

14     were no camps founded by the institutions of Banja Luka town.  And

15     Manjaca was a prison for prisoners of war and it was organised by the

16     Army of Republika Srpska.  So in the legal sense, it was not important

17     where it was located.

18        Q.   I have a few follow-up questions on Manjaca, specifically.  Now,

19     you say in your statement the camp was closed in November 1992.  It's a

20     small point, but actually December 1992; right?

21        A.   I think it was in December or perhaps late November.  I remember

22     that it really wasn't so cold, so perhaps.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32032.

24        Q.   Now, this is a letter from Radovan Karadzic to Daniel Schiffer,

25     who you mention in your statement.  In the first paragraph,

Page 32758

 1     President Karadzic refers to the visit by Elie Wiesel that you also

 2     mention in your statement.  And in pertinent part we read in the middle

 3     of the third paragraph:

 4             "In honour of Mr. Wiesel and his associates' visit to Yugoslavia

 5     and the Republic of Srpska and on the occasion of our Orthodox Christmas,

 6     we are willing to release all prisoners from Manjaca if the international

 7     community and the ICRC are ready to accept them and convey them to third

 8     countries."

 9             The Bosnian Serb leadership conditioned closing Manjaca on the

10     conveyance of those detainees who were released to third countries;

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 32032 [Realtime

14     transcript read in error "30232"].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32032 receives number P7193.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Turning now to Prijedor --

20             MR. TRALDI:  I think there may be -- I think the number may be

21     mis-recorded at page 19, line 9.  The P number for the last document.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The number should be P7193.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Turning now to Prijedor, were you ever deployed to Prijedor

25     yourself?

Page 32759

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   You never --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I clarify if the 65 ter number is correct.

 4     We have two versions, if I'm not mistaken.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  The second time at page 19, line 7, I'm recorded as

 6     having said 65 ter 30232 and I intended, at least, to have said 32032, as

 7     I did when I called it up.  I apologise for any ambiguity I may have

 8     created there.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So then we have now 32032 in evidence as P7193.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   You just said you were never deployed to Prijedor yourself.  You

12     never participated in any combat there; right?

13        A.   That's right.  I never was there.

14        Q.   And you never served in the 5th or the 43rd Brigade of the VRS?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So in paragraph 46 when you say:  "There was no organised

17     deployment of soldiers in Prijedor," you have no idea whether that's true

18     or not, do you?

19        A.   May I see paragraph 46, please?

20        Q.   It's the last paragraph of the statement.

21        A.   As the commander of the communications platoon, I was in an

22     artillery unit, which was much bigger.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The statement of the witness is D924.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That unit included soldiers from

Page 32760

 1     all areas of the Bosnian Krajina including, inter alia, from Prijedor.

 2     We were deployed to the south of the Banja Luka when this rebellion broke

 3     out in Prijedor and the fighting in Prijedor broke out.  Most of the

 4     soldiers from Prijedor did not ask for permission.  They just took their

 5     weapons and of their own initiative set out towards Prijedor with the

 6     explanation that their families were there.  That was not allowed.

 7     However, their motive was so strong that no one was able to stop them.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, just to be very specific, what I'm putting to you is when

10     you say there was no organised deployment of soldiers in Prijedor, there

11     was no military order in that respect, what you're aware of is the

12     behaviour of a number of soldiers in the rocket brigade.  You have no

13     personal knowledge as to the brigades that were based in Prijedor or as

14     to any of the events -- the military events in Prijedor except for this

15     event at the end of May; right?

16        A.   No, I don't have any other information except for this departure

17     of soldiers of their own initiative.

18        Q.   Now, we left off Friday with -- sorry, Thursday, with your visit

19     to Prijedor.  I will focus on that visit for the rest of your testimony.

20     First, you mention that you went to Omarska.  You were aware, because you

21     and the press centre --

22        A.   Yes, as a part of a group of journalists.

23        Q.   Now, because you and the press centre kept track of international

24     media, as you testified Thursday, you were aware that there had been

25     reporting about terrible conditions in Omarska and other camps before

Page 32761

 1     your visit; right?

 2        A.   Those reports were very superficial, and this was discussed more

 3     as rumour and rumours than any sort of evidence.  Actually, we heard most

 4     of this after Radovan Karadzic had attended the London Conference where

 5     there was more talk about this.

 6        Q.   Sir, I understand your answer to be:  Yes, you were aware there

 7     had been reporting about terrible conditions in the camps before your

 8     visit; right?

 9        A.   We knew very little and we did not have any real evidence.

10        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has received evidence that the

11     1st Krajina Corps command knew at the time you went that before your

12     visit, more than a thousand prisoners had been transported from Omarska

13     to Manjaca and some of them had been murdered outside Manjaca camp.  Were

14     you, like the 1st Krajina Corps command, aware of those events?

15        A.   I didn't know it at the time.  I heard something about this

16     later.

17        Q.   And you know as you sit there today, this is in the context of

18     almost all the prisoners at Omarska being transported from Omarska to

19     Manjaca before your visit; right?

20        A.   As far as I know, yes, they were.

21        Q.   About how many prisoners did you see at Omarska when you were

22     there?

23        A.   I don't have a full picture because we only passed through the

24     restaurant where they were being served their lunch at that moment, and

25     it was impossible to make an estimate.

Page 32762

 1        Q.   And you were aware that on the previous journalists' visit to

 2     Omarska, they'd been stopped from recording certain things; right?

 3        A.   No, I didn't know that at the time.  But this was a short time,

 4     only two days.

 5        Q.   And did you see any elderly prisoners when you were there?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Any that were ill?

 8        A.   No.  But the visit itself was very short, so I didn't have an

 9     opportunity to pay much attention to details.  We were going to a press

10     conference that was to be held by Mr. Drljaca.

11        Q.   Now, you also mention visits to Manjaca.  You're aware that there

12     was a journalists' visit to Manjaca on about the same day, and the

13     prisoners who'd been transferred from Omarska the journalists weren't

14     allowed to see; right?

15        A.   No, I didn't know this because this was all happening at Manjaca

16     and I wasn't present.  So I wasn't aware of this.

17        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that your immediate

18     superior, Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic, was part of that visit.  He

19     didn't tell you that the reporters weren't allowed to see the prisoners

20     who had been transferred from Omarska?

21        A.   He didn't tell me, personally.  But I can't remember whether we

22     discussed that at all, because we were not there at the time.  So

23     probably I missed out on that or there may have been other reasons, but I

24     didn't hear that.

25        Q.   And you said Thursday you went to Keraterm yourself.  Which parts

Page 32763

 1     of the camp did you go to?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, only one front section where Colonel Arsic

 3     took us and where there was really nothing at all.  Some journalists even

 4     moved some boxes and looked around, but they never found anything.

 5        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that the 1st Krajina Corps

 6     command was aware that about two weeks earlier there had been a massacre

 7     of prisoners at Keraterm camp.  Were you aware of that yourself?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And the journalists weren't taken to the rooms where the

10     prisoners had previously been detained, were they?

11        A.   I don't know in what rooms the prisoners were detained.  This was

12     the only occasion when I went to Keraterm and when we were all together

13     in a group.

14        Q.   And so they weren't taken into any rooms, for instance, that had

15     bullet holes in the door and in the wall above them?

16        A.   We didn't see that.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I am about to turn to a document.  I

18     have, I think, about 10 to 15 minutes of questions remaining.  Looking at

19     the clock, I think it might be best to break now.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we take a break first.

21             Mr. Solaja, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We would like to

22     see you back after that break.  You may now follow the usher.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  It's a Monday morning

Page 32764

 1     thing, I'm afraid.  If I could offer one quick clarification about the

 2     point I earlier made concerning the Banja Luka videolink issue.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And that's simply that those are witnesses for whom

 5     the Defence indicated it intended to make a motion for videolink and I

 6     may have inadvertently suggested that the videolink issue had already

 7     been resolved.  So all of that was assuming that, in fact, the motion was

 8     made and there was a sufficient basis for granting it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you're suggesting that scheduling them on,

10     for example, a Friday or at least later on in this week might accommodate

11     some of the concerns the Defence has in calling -- in having witnesses

12     available to testify?

13             MR. TIEGER:  That part was still correct.  But again, it assumes

14     the underlying initial bases are met.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.  Thank you for

16     that.  And we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, please continue.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Can we have 65 ter 03327.

23        Q.   And what we see here is headlined:  "Press Release."  We see at

24     the top:  "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Government," and

25     the date, the 7th of August, 1992.  And we see at the beginning that it

Page 32765

 1     responds to a CNN broadcast of the 6th of August about the situation of

 2     those imprisoned in Omarska.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Except it's talking about 1882 instead of 1992,

 4     the English version.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, the English does say "1882" and the B/C/S

 6     "1992."  We'll have that checked.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 4 in the English and 3 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   We see that it bears Prime Minister Djeric's name at the bottom.

10     And in the second paragraph in the English, we read:

11             "It is undeniable that rooms in Omarska are not equipped for the

12     stay of large number of persons and that there are not enough sanitary

13     and other equipment."

14             Now, you were aware, weren't you, that on the day of the your

15     visit, the government of the Republika Srpska was conceding that

16     previously there'd been too many prisoners in Omarska for what the space

17     and the sanitary facilities allowed?

18        A.   The government stated its views on the matter, but what I see in

19     this document looks like a draft to me rather than a document as such.

20     I've never seen it.  But I see that something was crossed out, several

21     paragraphs, so I cannot assert that this is a document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is a document, but you may have some doubts

23     as to what it stands for, whether it's a final document, whether it's a

24     draft, but -- Witness, but, I think, the question was whether you were

25     aware that on the day of your visit, the government of Republika Srpska

Page 32766

 1     was conceding that previously there'd been too many prisoners in Omarska.

 2     Do you have any knowledge about that apart from your comments on this

 3     document?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 5     witness.  Could all other microphones please be switched off when the

 6     witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you repeat your answer, whether you

 8     were aware of the government, the Republika Srpska government conceding

 9     this previous situation?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from the media.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   We see below that that the press release states that the Ministry

14     of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had

15     issued an order, according to this release, to "immediately release from

16     Omarska persons older than 60 years of age, heavily wounded, and sick

17     persons, except for those against whom urgent criminal procedures were

18     ordered ..."

19             Were you also aware from the media that before your visit,

20     elderly people, heavily wounded people, and sick people, among others,

21     had been kept as prisoners in Omarska camp?

22        A.   No, that was not in the media.

23        Q.   And the fact that elderly people, heavily wounded people, sick

24     people, were among the people transferred from Omarska to Manjaca before

25     your visit, that was part of the reason that journalists weren't allowed

Page 32767

 1     to see the Omarska prisoners on their first Manjaca visit; right?

 2        A.   That was not in the media, either.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 03327 receives number P7194.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P7194 is admitted.

 7             Witness, your last answer was, and it's not the first time, you

 8     said:  "That was not in the media, either."  The questions always seek

 9     any personal knowledge you may have or hearsay evidence, not whether

10     something was in the media.  So therefore, could you please answer that

11     question now; that is, that the fact that elderly people, heavily wounded

12     people, sick people were among the people transferred from Omarska to

13     Manjaca before your visit, that that was part of the reason that

14     journalists weren't allowed to see the Omarska prisoners on their first

15     Manjaca visit.  Could you please answer that question?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no knowledge about that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Next question, please.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   I'm going to turn to Trnopolje now, sir, finally, and I'm going

21     to ask Ms. Stewart to play a video with 65 ter 22393c.

22             MR. TRALDI:  For the record, I should note we'll play it twice to

23     allow the translation to be confirmed.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "For Trnopolje has changed.  There's now some food getting

Page 32768

 1     through, although the queues are long, and there is also shelter and

 2     clothes provided by the Serbian authorities.  And the barbed wire fence

 3     which shocked the world has been torn down from its posts.  All this has

 4     been done in advance of the simultaneous arrival of the Red Cross and our

 5     cameras.  For certain, conditions here have improved.  These refugees are

 6     safer.  But the Red Cross have still not been allowed to enter any other

 7     camps and our visits are closely supervised."

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "For Trnopolje has changed.  There is now some food getting

10     through, although the queues are long, and there is also shelter and

11     clothes provided by the Serbian authorities.  And the barbed wire fence

12     which shocked the world has been torn down from its posts.  All this has

13     been done in advance of the simultaneous arrival of the Red Cross and our

14     cameras.  For certain, conditions here have improved.  These refugees are

15     safer.  But the Red Cross have still not been allowed to enter any other

16     camps and our visits are closely supervised."

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Now, you say in your statement there was no barbed wire at

19     Trnopolje.  You know from having monitored foreign media about events in

20     the ARK that barbed wire had been taken down in advance of the

21     journalists' visit that you were on; right?

22        A.   I did not see a wire and I don't know of its existence.  And I

23     haven't seen it in this footage, and I'd like to know when this footage

24     was taken.

25        Q.   What I'm putting to you, sir, is you know there was barbed wire

Page 32769

 1     on the previous visit.  When you say in your statement there was none on

 2     the visit that you were on, that you didn't see any barbed wire, what

 3     you're describing is preparations to present a more acceptable image of

 4     the camp; right?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  First, asked and answered.  The gentleman said what

 7     he knew.  Second, this gentleman asked my colleague when this recording

 8     was taken, and I think it is a legitimate question and he should be

 9     provided first with that data.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was partly asked, but something at

11     least was added to it -- asked, and to some extent answered.  To the

12     limited extent it was asked, there was an answer.  But Mr. Traldi now

13     adds something to it, that is, what the witness is describing in his

14     statement and puts to him what it is in the view of the Prosecution.  So

15     to that extent the question is admissible.

16             MR. LUKIC:  But the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please, Mr. Lukic.

18             And, Mr. Traldi, I think if you are putting to the witness that

19     he is describing preparations to present a more acceptable image, if you

20     would give a time-frame to that it might make it easier for the witness

21     to answer your question.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Sure.  I'll rephrase.

23        Q.   Sir, you're aware from your monitoring of the international press

24     that journalists had filmed barbed wire on their previous visit to

25     Trnopolje.  What I'm putting to you is that the fact there was no barbed

Page 32770

 1     wire when this footage was filmed, the fact you did not see barbed wire

 2     on your visit, reflect the results of preparations after that first visit

 3     on the 5th, before your visit on the 7th, to present a more acceptable

 4     image of Trnopolje camp to the world.  That's true, isn't it?

 5        A.   I do not know of any wire around Trnopolje before the 5th or on

 6     the 5th.  I just know that in part there was an old fence that could have

 7     been interpreted as such a wire.  But as far as I know, there was no

 8     fence.  Even the foreign media, and we followed their subsequent reports

 9     too, there was no mention of a wire.  It would be a good thing if we have

10     full footage of this wire, if that is what is being claimed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has seen most of that footage, so

12     therefore we'll not necessarily play it again.  We are aware of the

13     discussion about some of the wire that was shown on other parts of the

14     footage.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this clip.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is now for the second time seeking to

18     consult counsel with a loud voice, so if he could speak at a lower

19     volume, that would be preferred.

20             Madam Registrar, the number?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 22393c receives number P7195.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7195 is admitted.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   And, sir, what I'm putting to you is:  At Keraterm, these

Page 32771

 1     journalists weren't taken to the room that had recently been a massacre

 2     site; at Omarska, most of the prisoners had been removed; at Trnopolje,

 3     the barbed wire was gone.  What I'm putting to you is:  This visit was a

 4     propaganda exercise designed to undermine or conceal the truth that had

 5     been recently reported about the terrible criminal conditions in these

 6     camps.  That's the truth about this visit; right?

 7        A.   The visit was agreed by President Karadzic, as far as I know, in

 8     London, with foreign representatives.  And I don't know why they agreed

 9     to it if they considered it to be propaganda.  I just know with this

10     group because that's when I did the same work as all other journalists

11     who were there.  There were many foreign media that were present.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

13     witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

15             Before we -- no, Mr. Lukic, if you have any further questions for

16     the witness?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Solaja.  Good day once again.

21        A.   Good day.

22        Q.   I will just briefly go through some of the topics that were

23     raised by my colleague, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P7191.  We're going to start with

25     that.

Page 32772

 1        Q.   In this text, General Talic speaks about the corridor, the

 2     establishment of the corridor, its importance.  This Chamber has heard

 3     evidence about those 12 babies that died because of a lack of oxygen.  Do

 4     you have any personal knowledge about that time and about that occurrence

 5     or, rather, these occurrences; namely, the deaths of these babies?  Just

 6     tell us whether you know and then I'm going to put other questions if you

 7     do know about it.

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Was intervention sought to have oxygen provided to Banja Luka?

10        A.   What was asked for was having oxygen transported by plane from

11     Belgrade to Banja Luka.  However, at that time, what was valid was a UN

12     resolution on a no-fly zone, so the UN did not allow this plane to fly

13     from Belgrade to Banja Luka.  Dr. Ilic was the director of the hospital

14     at that time, and he personally asked the president of the Presidency of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, and he also tried to speak to

16     the president of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman.  However, oxygen was not

17     provided to Banja Luka because Banja Luka at that point in time - that is

18     to say, Bosanski Brod, Modrica, Doboj, Knin - this entire area had been

19     cut off from the rest of the world, physically.

20        Q.   I don't know whether everything has been recorded.  What was the

21     answer of Alija Izetbegovic?

22        A.   There was no answer.  That's what Dr. Ilic claims in the film

23     that was made dealing with that topic, because the thirteenth baby

24     survived, though seriously damaged.

25        Q.   And what was Alija Izetbegovic asked to do?

Page 32773

 1        A.   To help make this decision, that the plane with the oxygen be

 2     brought to Banja Luka.  And not only oxygen but also other kinds of

 3     medicine.  What was the name of that for kidney treatment?  Dialysis,

 4     yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Now let us look at P3714, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, Witness, where does all

 8     this knowledge come from?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That part, I mean, of then

10     Bosanska Krajina and the Republic of Serb Krajina was physically

11     separated.  And I lived there at the time, I was injured, and they had to

12     transport me by bicycle to a doctor.  There was no fuel.  There was no

13     food and many other things that were needed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  My question was about where do you have your

15     detailed knowledge about who said what in relation to the oxygen problem.

16     Where -- you know that -- who -- yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that two years ago from

18     this film, "A Breath of Life," that was made and that dealt with that

19     topic, and this Dr. Ilic is a witness who speaks about that.  And the

20     then Secretary-General, Boutros Boutros-Ghali took part in that, and I

21     gave the final assessment.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, indeed we've heard evidence about the

23     event.  And now to invite the witness to summary what he learned two

24     years ago from a television programme or from a film is not what assists

25     the Chamber.

Page 32774

 1             Please proceed.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I knew about that

 3     earlier, too.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you about when you learned about it.  You

 5     said two years ago.  But you have no direct knowledge yourself --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is reliable evidence.

 7     Yes, I had direct information from Dr. Ilic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then why didn't you tell us before when I said what

 9     your -- where does your knowledge come from?  When did you meet Dr. Ilic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we worked together at the

11     time.  In the 1990s, I worked in this health system as an advisor.

12     However, I thought that public information was more reliable.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's not for you to make an assessment of the

14     reliability of the evidence.  It is for you to tell us what your personal

15     knowledge and experience was.  This also sheds some further light --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for having cautioned me.

17     I really don't have any experience with courts.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

19             Mr. Lukic --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] At the time, did the media report about that?

24        A.   Of course.  It made the headlines.  However, the media did not

25     get very far.  At that time, there was no electricity, so people would

Page 32775

 1     listen to the news on small transistor radios and ...

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P3714, please.  Could we have that

 4     now?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  According to the transcript you asked for 3794

 6     previously but --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, 3714.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  "14."  Then it's perhaps not recorded well on

 9     page 33, line 23.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] This document was also shown to you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 2 in the English version

14     and page 3 in B/C/S.  So it is a document of the command of the

15     1st Krajina Corps, dated the 28th of July, 1992.  [In English] I'm sorry,

16     I will need previous page in English version.  We need number 3.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] You see, you were asked about number 3 here, and

18     it says:

19             "In the city of Banja Luka and other large towns there is an

20     increased demand for, and organisation of, the departure of the Croatian

21     and Muslim population."

22             Do you know who these requests for departures came from?

23        A.   I think from citizens of Croat and Muslim ethnicity.  They

24     applied because I think many were afraid.  This fear was a fear for basic

25     existence.

Page 32776

 1        Q.   And do you know anything about this way in which it was

 2     organised?  Could it be unorganised?  How could one leave Krajina?

 3        A.   In an unorganised manner, it was absolutely impossible because

 4     until the corridor was broken through, we were absolutely sealed off on

 5     all sides.  And the fear of death was the fear that there would be lack

 6     of food, because they did not care about Serbs or Croats or Muslims or

 7     anyone.  There was only the possibility to move through the corridor,

 8     along it towards Serbia or via Gradiska and into Croatia.  That was the

 9     only way.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at

12     P6976.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One follow-up question.

14             Do you have any explanation as to why the document only talks

15     about the Croatian and the Muslim population and its departure?  Does

16     that mean that the Serbs had no fear for their lives at that time in

17     Banja Luka?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was fear, too.  But Serbs

19     were not allowed to leave.  They could only do that illegally or somehow

20     sidestepping what was usual and to get the proper papers, because

21     Republika Srpska had said that it had the competence in this territory.

22     But it did not force Muslims and Croats to serve the army.  It was just

23     that some of them were doing that voluntarily.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And Serbs are not allowed to leave on the basis of

25     what?

Page 32777

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was not possible to travel

 2     freely, and everyone was obliged in accordance with the laws of

 3     Republika Srpska to participate in the work of institutions.  One of the

 4     institutions was the army, which mobilised the Serbs into the army

 5     because it was wartime and conscription was compulsory even though the

 6     state of war as such had not yet been officially declared.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's perhaps for those who were under a duty

 8     to -- under the mobilisation, but this is about Croatians, Muslims, the

 9     population, and I asked you about the Serbs, not about those Serbs fit

10     for military service.  They could not travel?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That means women, elderly, youngsters, they could

13     not -- they were not allowed to travel?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only those who had to travel on

15     business or if they needed treatment.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Croats and Muslims, were they allowed to

17     travel?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Freely?  No.  They requested to be

19     allowed to leave and go to third countries.  But they were not forced to

20     request this.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It all still doesn't explain why this daily combat

22     report is focusing on Croats and Muslims, whereas you say Serbs couldn't

23     travel either.  I mean, I'm seeking explanation why this document is not

24     talking about population that wishes to leave but is talking about Croats

25     and Muslim population.

Page 32778

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Serbs didn't submit their

 2     requests to leave so frequently, or they didn't submit them at all.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you know that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was living there at the time.  I

 5     mean, I've been living there all my life.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'm trying to continue with the topic without asking any leading

 9     questions.  What was the manner in which a Serb could leave and go to

10     Serbia?  What did he need?

11        A.   He had to have a strong reason because Serbia also had an

12     immigration policy that did not allow for people to move there freely.

13     It had to be either treatment or business or some similar reason and some

14     kind of need had to exist that could not be resolved in Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Was it necessary to have some documents?

16        A.   Yes, there were special permits which were issued for such

17     occasions because the system with the use of passports did not function.

18     No one could issue passports because Republika Srpska had not been

19     internationally recognised.  So that was the limiting factor which

20     prevented Serbs from leaving.  Only specific documents could be used that

21     worked in specific situations.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at P6976, please.

23        Q.   Here in this document, Mr. Brdjanin also speaks later.  My

24     learned friend showed you this.  However, here on page 1, we see that

25     it's Mr. Radic who is the speaker.  You have told us that he was an

Page 32779

 1     honourable man, a person of integrity.  He says here, that's

 2     approximately around line 7, from where we can see that he starts to

 3     speak, and he says:

 4             "The victims of this war are our children.  The victims of the

 5     last war were our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers.  The victims

 6     of the war before that one were our fathers and grandfathers, and of the

 7     one still before, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers.  They all had

 8     one goal: to live in large numbers and graced by God, with their own

 9     people and nothing more, recognising that other peoples have the same

10     right."

11             Having reported and worked for the newspaper for which you did

12     work, did you ever have an opportunity to hear anyone tell you to spread

13     propaganda to the effect that other people should not live together with

14     Serbs in Republika Srpska?

15        A.   No, we never received any such instructions.  I even think that

16     Republika Srpska declared itself as a civil society, a civil state.  I

17     think that the preamble to the constitution reads that the constitution

18     is adopted by the Serbs and other ethnicities living in Republika Srpska.

19     I think that was the original version of the constitution and that this

20     was in its preamble.

21        Q.   We see here that the date is 21st August 1994.  It's a broadcast

22     of the rally of the Serbian unit in Banja Luka.  After two years of war,

23     Mr. Radic says that the same right is recognised to other peoples, the

24     same one that the Serbs have.  Do you know that he changed that position

25     by the end of the war?

Page 32780

 1        A.   No, no.  He never did.  That was, among other things, the reason

 2     that on the 2nd of January, 1996, President Bill Clinton received him as

 3     one of the most mild politicians in Republika Srpska, or perhaps the one

 4     who was the least hardened.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look briefly at 65 ter 11306.

 6     I don't know if this has been admitted already.  We did talk about

 7     abolished Crisis Staffs.  We need in English page 3, paragraph 2.  And in

 8     the B/C/S version, we need the third column, the second paragraph.  If we

 9     could zoom in, please.

10        Q.   This has to do with the press conference of the defence minister

11     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colonel Bogdan

12     Subotic, published in Glas on the 7th of July, 1992.  So that was more or

13     less at the beginning of the war.

14             At the beginning of the second paragraph, in the third column, it

15     reads:

16             [As read] "All citizens who accept the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina as their own state will remain within its borders and

18     will enjoy all civil rights."

19             The author of the report from this press conference is M. Solaja.

20        A.   Yes, that's me.

21        Q.   To whom was this addressed?  Who was reading Glas?

22        A.   Glas was a paper that had 50 years of tradition behind itself,

23     and it was normally sold on newsstands.  So everyone was reading it.

24        Q.   And the "Krajina Soldier"?

25        A.   The "Krajina Soldier" was the paper of the 1st Krajina Corps and

Page 32781

 1     it was distributed among units, but it could also be bought at

 2     newsstands.  So it was distributed in the retail network.

 3        Q.   What was the main population that was reading the "Krajina

 4     Soldier"?

 5        A.   Anyone who got it, but it was intended primarily for the soldiers

 6     of the 1st Krajina Corps, but not in the sense of propaganda but as an

 7     information bulletin that would convey information about the most

 8     important events.  That was our concept.  Because we believed that there

 9     was no need to spread propaganda among our own troops but rather that

10     they should be told the truth.  So it was the idea to convey

11     realistically the facts about what was going on.  We were not political

12     propagandists, but we just wanted to report about the topical events of

13     the day.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at

16     P7912 [as interpreted].

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering the last document?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We will tender that document.  It

19     was on the list.

20             MR. TRALDI:  No objections, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 11306 receives number

23     D925.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D925 is admitted.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, Mr. Lukic, can you just check the number that

Page 32782

 1     you have just called?  You said 79 ...

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I asked for 7192.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's better.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] I am showing you this document just to refresh

 6     your memory about the topic.  It had to do with the replacement of the

 7     editor-in-chief of the Glas paper.  On transcript page 17, line 12, you

 8     started talking about the fact that Republika Srpska had just been

 9     created after the process in which the three ethnic groups could not

10     reach an agreement about the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I heard,

11     but it has not been recorded, that you said that.  Do you remember what

12     you said further on about the initial stage of creation of institutions?

13        A.   Yes, if I may continue.  The federal system of the Yugoslav

14     institutions had broken down, and the internal system of institutions of

15     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina also broke down.  In a

16     part of the territory, there were self-organised local organs, and on the

17     basis of that Republika Srpska came into existence and it defined itself

18     on the basis of constitution from 1992.  So ARK and Crisis Staffs were

19     this interim stage until the proper functioning of normal institutions

20     was established.

21        Q.   All right.  And now the editor-in-chief of Glas was relieved of

22     his duty.  What was the reason for his replacement?  Did it have anything

23     to do with the abolishment of Crisis Staffs?

24        A.   I don't think so, as far as I remember, though I wasn't really

25     involved in that.  I think that these were internal political reasons and

Page 32783

 1     that they didn't have anything to do with Crisis Staffs or any other

 2     events at the time.  Because there were quite a few such similar

 3     replacements even later.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Could the witness -- could you tell us then, what was the reason?

 6     What was the internal -- what were the internal problems?  Could you give

 7     us -- tell us what it was?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that these were problems

 9     within the then ruling and practically only party, the

10     Serbian Democratic Party, and that it had to do with personal power

11     within the party.  I don't think it had anything particular to do with

12     the events, apart from these internal reasons which I think were to a

13     large degree personal.  I think that one of the major issues was who were

14     the persons who believed themselves those who were to be honoured because

15     the corridor had been broken through.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you say "I think."  What specifically in

17     relation to the editor-in-chief?  What were the reasons?  Do you know?

18     If you don't know, if you say, I just think it was this or that.  Did he

19     claim anything?  Were there others who said he had done things wrong?

20     What was it?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he claimed that,

22     together with some other circles, he was to be most credited for having

23     broken the corridor.  But as far as I know, it was an operation of the

24     Army of Republika Srpska, and this created political differences within

25     the party.  But I did not know the particulars because I never was a

Page 32784

 1     member of this party.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But you say, "I think that he claimed that, together

 3     with some other circles, he was to be most credited," why do you think

 4     that?  What's your knowledge about what happened?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of what was published

 6     in Glas these days, because they said that some paramilitaries had broken

 7     the corridor, and on the other hand -- I think that he was the one who

 8     was saying that, that it was the paramilitaries.  And on the other hand,

 9     it was clear that it was a very widespread, major military operation.

10     But the party circles are closed and therefore it was only the rumours

11     that reached me from there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And therefore whether the abolishment of the

13     Crisis Staff were entirely foreign to that, you wouldn't know because you

14     only heard rumours and you have no direct knowledge.  Is that well

15     understood?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Just to clarify something, I will read to you

20     what has been recorded in the transcript and you can then just check if

21     it's correct.  On page 44, line 21, it reads:

22             [In English] "... I think he was the one who was saying that,

23     that it was the paramilitaries."

24        A.   No, no, he wasn't saying that.  Some of the members of the SDS

25     political party had this conviction.

Page 32785

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us please look at P7193.  You have seen this

 2     document also.  It's the letter to Daniel Salvatore Schiffer sent by

 3     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  It reads that the Serbian side is willing to

 4     release all the prisoners from Manjaca if the international community and

 5     the ICRC are ready to accept them and convey them to third countries.  Do

 6     you know what those who were imprisoned in Manjaca requested?

 7        A.   They requested to leave for third countries.  I think that a

 8     large number of them left Banja Luka for London by air.  I think that

 9     those were mostly wounded people and those who were in poor condition,

10     because Daniel Schiffer came there then and the camp was closed in his

11     presence.

12        Q.   What is the source of your information, that this is what the

13     people in Manjaca requested?

14        A.   Probably because they did go to London on a plane.  It was a big

15     Russian plane.

16        Q.   But you did not personally talk about this with people in

17     Manjaca -- or did you?

18        A.   No, I didn't.  I had no opportunity and I didn't really deal with

19     these issues at the time.  This was a very dynamic period when there was

20     quite a lot of other work.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now just look at another two

23     documents.  I think that we'll finish one of them before the break.

24     P7194, please.  In this document, we need page 4 in the English version

25     and page 3 in the B/C/S version.

Page 32786

 1        Q.   It's a document in which some things have been crossed out.  What

 2     is discussed here are the poor conditions in Omarska, the fact that

 3     sanitary and other equipment was inadequate, and that there were too many

 4     people.  In the continuation of the same paragraph, we read this

 5     sentence:

 6             "However, we are forced to use them, one of the reasons being

 7     that the other side is not interested in the least in an exchange of

 8     prisoners."

 9             As you were working in the paper of the 1st Krajina Corps, did

10     you have the information whether the other side was uninterested in an

11     exchange of prisoners?

12        A.   No, I didn't.  The paper wasn't being published at the time.  We

13     were just preparing it.  The first issue under number 11 was only

14     published in November.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll also need P7195.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we move to that, I'm addressing both you,

18     Mr. Lukic, and you, Mr. Traldi.  Of course we see that there are quite a

19     lot of handwritings in it.  Well, the witness commented on it, where --

20     but the Chamber would like to know, of course, what the status of this

21     document is in the view of the parties.

22             MR. TRALDI:  What I can say is we got it from a media source

23     rather than from a Republika Srpska government collection, which

24     indicates to us that it was sent in this form.  And the source was

25     affiliated with SRNA.

Page 32787

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But do you know who then -- whether they received it

 2     with all the handwritten markings on it or did they make their own

 3     markings on it, the source that received this press release?

 4             MR. TRALDI:  That, Your Honour, I don't have an answer to.  And

 5     we'll look into it and report back as expeditiously as we can.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I noticed that you quoted only from the parts which

 7     were not stricken out.

 8             Mr. Lukic, do you have any comment on the matter?  Because

 9     earlier I think you did not object to the admission, but we still may

10     need some --

11             MR. LUKIC:  I did not --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- information in order to assess the exact

13     probative value of the document.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I did not because I saw some stamp on the first page

15     that somebody received it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you --

17             MR. LUKIC:  And there is a signature --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What's then your position in relation to this

19     document, that the text was given to press agencies with the markings on

20     it or without?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I really -- we have no knowledge who did those

22     markings, whether it was done after it was sent or before.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you -- because you're now putting

24     questions in relation to this document, you accept this to be a press

25     release with or without the markings which was once issued?

Page 32788

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that situation is clear.  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I see we are at the break time but I can

 5     finish in a couple of minutes so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please finish in those couple of minutes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  So we need P7195, please.  [Interpretation] It's a

 8     video.

 9        Q.   You were told that between the 5th and the 7th the barbed wire

10     had been removed.  The journalist Penny Marshall said on the 7th when she

11     was filming this, the 7th of August, 1992, she says that the visit is

12     strictly supervised.  Did you see that?  Could journalists freely speak

13     to the people who were in Trnopolje or was somebody escorting them, some

14     armed persons?  What was your impression?  Was it a strictly supervised

15     visit?

16        A.   All the journalists freely spoke.  At Trnopolje there were about

17     40 journalists.  There was a bus full of them.  There was an escort, but

18     it wasn't there just for escort purposes.  It was there for the security

19     of the journalists.  Can I just say a few words?

20             Serbia and Republika Srpska were under UN sanctions and embargo

21     then, and the attitude of the population towards anything that was called

22     "foreign" was very negative, and I said that in my statement.  Our main

23     intention was to safe-guard the journalists so that nothing bad would

24     happen to them.  And I can say with pride that there was no threat to the

25     physical security of journalists in our area.  There were civilian cars

Page 32789

 1     that were driving in front of the bus and behind the bus.

 2        Q.   Just another thing.  As far as you know, now these posts where it

 3     is claimed that there was a barbed wire around them, what did this area

 4     look like when you were there on the 7th?

 5        A.   I don't remember a barbed wire.  I remember this wire mesh.  Any

 6     peasant puts barbed wire on top of a fence in our parts.  It was old and

 7     it was rusty.  I know that the entire area was not fenced off with barbed

 8     wire.  There was this fencing there from earlier on.  There was a school

 9     there or a youth centre, and usually there would be fences around that.

10        Q.   How high was the fencing?

11        A.   It varied.  Mostly it was low and in some parts it was a bit

12     higher, probably the part facing the forest.  I mean, I don't know why.

13     It was done a lot earlier.  I never really gave this any thought.

14        Q.   When you say "lower," how much lower?

15        A.   Our fences are usually 1 metre, 1 metre, 20 centimetres.  I mean,

16     that's a tradition in our parts, that is what everybody does.

17        Q.   Were there parts that were not fenced off at all?

18        A.   There were.  More than a half, I think.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Solaja.  That was all we had for you.

20        A.   Thank you, too.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have one or two short questions.

22             First of all:  Now, finally, when you were there on the 7th of

23     August, if I understand you well, was there any barbed wire anywhere that

24     you did see?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there only once.  And as far

Page 32790

 1     as I know, I didn't see it.  I mean, a barbed wire fence?  I did not see

 2     that.  We have this tradition, and I also have it on my own property,

 3     that on top of a fence you put barbed wire.  But I don't know whether

 4     your understanding is --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Witness, I'm just seeking facts.  Did you see,

 6     not in your own garden, but did you see any barbed wire when you were in

 7     Trnopolje on the 7th of August?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, you comment that the barbed wire was

10     rusty.  What is the basis of your knowledge that the barbed wire you

11     didn't see --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mesh.  That is a fence that is --

13             MR. LUKIC:  If it's entered "barbed wire," we would ask to be

14     revised [overlapping speakers] --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that there is a misunderstanding in

16     that respect.  Yes.  That's clear.

17             I have one other question.  I'm seeking clarification of

18     paragraph 31 of your statement.

19             Perhaps it could be -- or 30, 31, of the statement.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which is now D924.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And I already introduced the matter to you.  You

22     told us that there were no camps in Banja Luka, which you explained was

23     that wherever they may have been located, they were not organised by

24     Banja Luka authorities.  And then in paragraph 30, you further say about

25     there was -- a terrible fact is that there were several cases of murder

Page 32791

 1     which were discussed only later.  And you then later say that you know

 2     about a few murders.

 3             And then in paragraph 31, you said:

 4             "Even at that time, all of that was resolved and proven to be

 5     motivated by greed."

 6             Now, I am just trying to understand what murders you are talking

 7     about.  The two murders you are referring to, I think, are not murders

 8     which appear in the indictment.  In the indictment we have a number of

 9     incidents where sometimes a smaller number, sometimes a larger number of

10     people were killed.

11             Now, if you say -- if you are talking about these murders, are

12     you talking about a limited area or are you including any of the murders

13     which this Chamber finds in the indictment as charges against the

14     accused?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of these two cases.  This

16     murder --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the names

18     that were mentioned.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew these persons myself and the

20     crime prevention police said that these murders involved looting as well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's for those two and not in general for

22     murders having been committed at that period of time in the larger area

23     in or close to Banja Luka, Prijedor, Sanski Most.  You're not explaining

24     any other murders than the two which you specifically mention here.  Is

25     that correctly understood?

Page 32792

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood that correctly.

 2     Those are the cases that I know about.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Traldi, any further questions?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Very briefly, Mr. President.  Five minutes or less.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll continue for five minutes.

 7             Please proceed.

 8                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 9        Q.   First, sir, you mentioned prisoners at Manjaca who you said went

10     by plane to the United Kingdom.  Now, the prisoners, when Manjaca was

11     closed, more than a thousand were sent to Croatia by bus and several

12     hundred were transferred to Batkovic and Kula within the Bosnian Serb

13     system and hidden from the Red Cross; weren't they?

14        A.   I know about this convoy to Croatia, but I don't know about --

15     about other camps.  And I don't think it's realistic, because the

16     Red Cross had very precise records.  Beat Schweizer is a person I knew

17     myself from the Red Cross.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are not asked about an opinion, how

19     realistic is anything.  We do understand that you do know about the

20     transport to Croatia and that you do not know about the transfer of

21     others.  Is that well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood that well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Finally, could we have 65 ter 02362.

25        Q.   And I'm calling this up -- this will be the transcript of the

Page 32793

 1     22nd Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly related to your comments on

 2     redirect about the civil nature of the Bosnian Serb state and the

 3     reference to Serbs as well as other peoples in the constitution.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 77 at the bottom in English

 5     and 75 at the bottom in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   And we see at the end of what are described as the chairman's

 7     remarks that the assembly is moving to item 10 of the agenda, that's a

 8     citizenship bill, and that someone named Mr. Milojevic speaks.  He

 9     describes here in the English the great importance of that bill for the

10     state.  And then if we turn to the next page in the English, we read

11     Milojevic say, describing his concerns about the bill, it says:

12             "First, contravention with the Constitution.  Article 1 of the

13     Constitution stipulates:  'Republika Srpska is the state of the Serbian

14     people.' Period."

15             Now, first, were you aware of that position, that Republika

16     Srpska was the state of the Serbian people?

17        A.   This is one MP speaking and I cannot identify with that.  This is

18     his personal position, and it is the assembly that formulates general

19     positions.

20        Q.   And is it your position that the constitution of Republika Srpska

21     did not stipulate that it was the state of the Serbian people?

22        A.   Could you please clarify that question?  I did not understand it.

23        Q.   Sure.  What I'm putting to you is he's not articulating a

24     personal position.  He's saying Article 1 of the constitution stipulates

25     Republika Srpska is the state of the Serbian people.  He's purporting to

Page 32794

 1     be quoting the constitution.  You are aware of that provision as well;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Given what I've said already, namely, and other citizens, too.

 4        Q.   And he adds:

 5             "Citizens of Republika Srpska shall be granted citizenship of

 6     Republika Srpska, which means everybody, and he says, 'I think it should

 7     read Serbian.'"

 8             MR. TRALDI:  If we turn to the next page -- sorry, if we turn

 9     back in the English and to the next page in the B/C/S.  I was imprecise

10     and I apologise.

11             We see at the end of the third paragraph in the B/C/S or in the

12     third paragraph that he is discussing how Serbs couldn't get citizenship

13     in Slovenia straight away.  In Croatia, the parliament, the assembly

14     decides which Muslim will get citizenship.  And then he moves that the

15     law be sent back.  And if we turn -- below that we see Mr. Krajisnik's

16     remarks and in pertinent part in the middle, he says:

17             "That's why we decided that citizenship should be Serbian since

18     our republic is Serbian."

19             Below that, we see Mr. Milijanovic, he says:

20             "I think we need to make an effort to make this law as short and

21     clear as possible."

22             Turning to the next page in the English.

23             And at the very bottom in the B/C/S, we see the chairman say:

24             "Mr. Milijanovic's objection and proposal are valid."

25             And turning to the next page in the B/C/S, the law is being sent

Page 32795

 1     back to the relevant ministry for improvement.

 2        Q.   So the truth is that the constitution referred to Republika

 3     Srpska as the state of Serbian people in Article 1 and that the

 4     citizenship policy was designed to promote Serb citizenship, that, as

 5     Mr. Krajisnik said, citizenship should be Serbian because the republic is

 6     Serbian; right?

 7        A.   I can now present my own position, if necessary.  This is the

 8     parliamentary debate that I am unaware of.  And it's very early, the

 9     23rd, the 24th of April, 1992.  From this one can see that this article

10     about Serbs and other citizens did exist and that it was a subject of

11     debate.  So I maintain my position that the constitution reflects the

12     position that it is the country of Serbs and other citizens, and after

13     all this is contained in any modern constitution.  I think the

14     parliamentary debates cannot lead me to the conclusion of the assembly,

15     and I would kindly ask to be shown that so that I could see what it was.

16     This is just a parliamentary debate and ultimately it leads to certain

17     decisions.

18        Q.   Well, here we've showed you that it led to the bill being sent

19     back.  I'm going to ask you just one final question, which is:  Saying

20     Serbs and others, obviously by only mentioning Serbs it gives Serbs

21     primacy, doesn't it?

22        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree with that.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this assembly session be

24     marked for identification.  We'll seek to agree a selection with the

25     Defence.  Similarly, because it's discussed just in this assembly session

Page 32796

 1     and also in the witness's answer on redirect, I admit I haven't checked

 2     on the status of the constitution but we'll check Article 1 as well to

 3     ensure that the official wording is before the Chamber.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In view of this last comment, I would invite

 5     the witness to briefly explain why you do not agree with Mr. Traldi that

 6     Serbs are given primacy in the text as it was quoted?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is the way the

 8     preamble to the constitutional provision says; namely that, at least

 9     according to the constitution, all citizens enjoy equal rights.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number for this portion of the

11     transcript of the assembly session would be?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7196.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

14             This then concludes your testimony, Mr. Solaja.  Mr. Solaja, I

15     would like to thank you very much for having come a long way to The Hague

16     and for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the

17     parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

18     again.  You may follow the usher.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Just to ensure there isn't anything sitting on the

22     record unaddressed, I have done a quick check.  The constitution is P3007

23     and so we won't be seeking to do anything further in that regard.

24                            [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We take a break.  We will resume at 25 minutes

Page 32797

 1     to 2.00 -- to 1.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to briefly address

 5     some - I'm not saying all - of the scheduling issues raised recently,

 6     that is.  But the first one, and I would say the most urgent one, is the

 7     one for the week after Orthodox Easter, which is the week, Mr. Lukic, of

 8     the -- starting on Monday, the 13th of April.

 9             The Chamber has seriously considered to see whether we could use

10     that Thursday and Friday in one way or another, and similar suggestions

11     were made by the -- by the Prosecution.  We have decided that we'll grant

12     the whole of that week as a non-sitting week, and I immediately add to

13     that not as a nonworking week, because one of the reasons was that we

14     anticipated on what we still -- what you announced, that is, that you

15     would ask for some extra time for the preparation of the reopening of the

16     Defence case -- of the Prosecution's case.

17             Now in view of that, and not having yet seen your submissions in

18     that respect, but already those two days we were considering -- oh, yes,

19     well, but even the two weeks we had still in the back of our mind as

20     possibly using.  We refrain from that.  But then again, this time of

21     non-sitting also means that you have additional time to prepare for

22     whatever comes after that week.  And whether that will be -- whether that

23     will be extended in any other way, we'll first wait for any submissions

24     to be made in that respect.

25             All the other scheduling issues about the week of the -- starting

Page 32798

 1     the 26th of May, I think we have dealt with that one already.  That is a

 2     non-sitting week as well, although an extra Friday will be used in the

 3     first week of June.  That remains unchanged.

 4             I leave it to that at this moment.  Is the Defence ready to call

 5     its next witness?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honours.  The Defence would call

 7     Mr. Bojan Subotic at this time, no protective measures.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.  Before you give --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

13     make the solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you by the

14     usher.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  I solemnly declare that I

16     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  BOJAN SUBOTIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Subotic.

20             Mr. Subotic, it usually stays better if you have it on the top of

21     your head.  Mr. Subotic, it will be Mr. Ivetic, and you find him to your

22     left, who will examine you.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team

23     of Mr. Mladic.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 32799

 1                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 2        Q.   Good day, sir.  Could you please state your full name so that it

 3     is properly entered into the record.

 4        A.   My name is Bojan Subotic.

 5        Q.   Did you have occasion to give a written statement to members of

 6     the Defence team of General Mladic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to call up 1D01645 in e-court.

 9        Q.   Sir, if you could look on the screen at the Serbian original and

10     tell us whose signature that is on the first page of this document.

11        A.   My signature.

12        Q.   And, sir, I note that the year of birth is different between the

13     Serbian original and the English translation.  Can you please verify for

14     us what is your correct date and year of birth?

15        A.   The exact date of my birth is the 12th of December, 1972.  It's

16     the version in Serbian.  And the other one is incorrect.

17             MR. IVETIC:  If we could now turn to the last page in both

18     languages.

19        Q.   There is a signature here.  Can you tell us whose signature

20     appears on this page?

21        A.   That is my signature.

22        Q.   And, sir, does the date which is recorded here correspond to your

23     recollection of the date when you would have signed this statement?

24        A.   Yes, I think so.  Yes, yes.  It was the month of June.  Right,

25     yes.

Page 32800

 1        Q.   Now, sir, after you signed this statement, did you have an

 2     opportunity to review the same and read it in full to ascertain if

 3     everything is accurately and correctly recorded therein?

 4        A.   Well, I had the opportunity to look at it fleetingly.  There were

 5     some -- whether those were typos or something was moved, some of the

 6     events which may have occurred earlier or later in the written statement.

 7     But all in all, everything's in there.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let me go through some of those typos with you.  If I'd

 9     look at the first -- pardon me, the second page in both languages, and

10     paragraph number 1, I note that the English translation again has the

11     wrong year of birth.  Should that be fixed to reflect 1972 as we

12     previously mentioned and as is in the Serbian original?

13        A.   Yes, you are correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The one uploaded says 1972, isn't it?  Well, let me

15     just have a look.  Oh, you -- no, no, you're right.  I made a mistake.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we could look at the third page in both

18     languages.

19        Q.   In regard to paragraphs 11 and 12, what order should these

20     paragraphs go in to correctly correspond to the chronology of the events

21     contained therein?

22        A.   Well, I think that paragraphs 11 and 12 should switch places.  So

23     paragraph 11 should be in the place of paragraph 12, and the other way

24     around.  According to what I remember and the statement that I gave, this

25     should be the right chronology.  Whether this was switched so that it

Page 32801

 1     stands as it is now while the document was typed or something else, I'm

 2     not sure.  Because I talk here about meeting with my commander, so it

 3     should be switched.  Paragraph 12 should be in place of paragraph 11 and

 4     vice versa.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, apart from these corrections, do you stand by the rest

 6     of the statement as written?

 7        A.   Yes.  What I see on the screen, yes.

 8        Q.   Now, if I were to ask you questions today in court based on the

 9     same matters as contained in your written statement, would your answers

10     to those questions today in court be substantially the same as already

11     written in your statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And, sir, you have taken a solemn declaration today to tell the

14     truth.  Does that mean that what is written in your statement is truthful

15     in nature?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time we would tender 1D01645

18     as the next public Defence exhibit.  There are no associated documents

19     with the same.

20             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  No

21     objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D926.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D926 is admitted into evidence.

25             I nevertheless, Mr. Ivetic, would like to briefly deal with

Page 32802

 1     the -- you said the chronology as found in paragraphs 11 and 12.

 2             Witness, you say we should -- as a matter of fact, 12 comes

 3     before 11.  Now, in 11, you were given instructions to patrol the area

 4     along a stretch, et cetera, et cetera.  And then in 12, it starts with:

 5     "During the patrol, I was under fire all the time ..." If we change the

 6     chronology and start with 12, then the order for a patrol was given after

 7     you had patrolled that stretch, which is not entirely clear to me.  Do

 8     you have any clarification as to how you can talk about a patrol which is

 9     only later ordered?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant only with regard to the

11     instructions which my commander issued to me.  Paragraph 11 says that he

12     was there then.  However, no, a soldier reported to me then that he had

13     called, that he had told me to stay there, to replenish my ammunition,

14     and continue patrolling.  So I was on patrol before that and under heavy

15     fire.  So before I had reached this soldier and my commander, and that's

16     what is now contained in paragraph 12.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But the soldier which reported to you that he had

18     called -- that he had told you to stay there to replenish your

19     ammunition, does that appear at this moment somewhere in paragraphs 11

20     and 12?  If you could just read it again.  It's on your screen, I take

21     it.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraphs 11 and 12 do not mention

23     the soldier.  The soldier I'm talking about is a soldier who was at the

24     reception of the facility to which I withdrew when I managed to get out

25     of the ambush I had been in together with my soldiers.  In other words,

Page 32803

 1     my intention was to withdraw, to pick up this soldier, and to withdraw

 2     towards Milici because I was attacked by a huge force.  However, this

 3     soldier informed me that my commander, Malinic, had told him that I

 4     shouldn't budge and that he would be arriving there, too, very soon.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But in 12, I also read that you took a group of 10

 6     to 15 Muslim soldiers and that you went with them to the battalion

 7     command.  Now, what did you do?  Did you withdraw or did you bring

 8     imprisoned soldiers or at least soldiers that had surrendered and were

 9     disarmed to the battalion command?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in paragraph 11, when this

11     soldier informed me about that, I replenished my ammunition and I heard

12     down in the area of Nova Kasaba, the stadium, towards Konjevic Polje,

13     there was heavy fire.  I then went in an armoured combat vehicle with my

14     five soldiers and I was ambushed down there, so I was hit with -- I don't

15     know with what exactly anymore.  But my armoured combat vehicle could no

16     longer be used.  And during this ambush, the exchange between me and the

17     Muslim soldiers, those 13 or 14 soldiers surrendered themselves to me.  I

18     don't know what the exact number was.  I did not take them up to the

19     barracks or the school, but I called a first class sergeant, whose name I

20     cannot remember, to come and get them.  I also had a wounded soldier

21     there, so I asked them to call for an ambulance for me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it's therefore not just changing the

23     chronology but also quite some additional information.  Let me just check

24     whether the ambulance was -- did you state anywhere in 11, 12 that you

25     were injured and that an ambulance was called?  I don't see any of that

Page 32804

 1     in 11 and 12.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't me who was wounded

 3     but one of my soldiers.  And I called this first class sergeant who was

 4     up there to come down here to take over the prisoners and at the same

 5     time if he could communicate to the medical service in Milici -- it's

 6     true I did not mention that in my statement, but I did have a wounded

 7     soldier and I asked for medical assistance for him.  However, it did not

 8     reach me.  I transported this wounded soldier and delivered him to this

 9     first class sergeant.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And when did you then talk to the soldiers that had

11     surrendered?  You didn't accompany them to the battalion command.  When

12     did you then talk to them?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to them there on the spot

14     where they had surrendered themselves to me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I'm just trying to understand the change

16     in chronology as you testified about.

17             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think I need to read the witness

19     summary at this point in time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Bojan Subotic became a member of the

22     65th Motorised Protection Regiment of the VRS in December of 1992 and

23     served in various posts including the posts of commander of the

24     anti-terrorist platoon and military police.

25             He recalls in the first half of July 1995, when on regular duty

Page 32805

 1     at the command of the Military Police Battalion at Nova Kasaba, a woman

 2     came to them to say that her house and the area around the house was full

 3     of Muslim soldiers.  He went to check with one other soldier, and they

 4     came under ambush and fire from the Muslims, and had to call a BOV

 5     armoured vehicle to withdraw.  In his estimate, there were 1.000 enemy

 6     soldiers with dozens of machine-guns.

 7             Hearing intense fire from machine-gun and mortars in the

 8     direction of Konjevic Polje, he set out in the BOV to that area because

 9     there were a lot of civilians there.  His vehicle came under fire and he

10     fired tear-gas into the woods.  Muslim soldiers surrendered to him and

11     told of how there was infighting on their side between those that had

12     wanted to surrender and the Muslim commanders who did not let them

13     surrender and who were killing those that wanted to give themselves up.

14     He used the vehicle's loudspeaker to call upon the Muslims to surrender

15     and additional Muslims surrendered.

16             Three of the surrendered Muslims were wounded and were bandaged

17     up.  Subotic radioed the command and asked for an ambulance and

18     assistance so as not to be wiped out as there were still movements and

19     shooting from the Muslim troops in the woods.  At the base, even the

20     UNPROFOR were firing into the woods to repel the attack.

21             The witness eventually went into the woods with the Muslims and

22     saw a horrible sight of over 500 dead people.  They removed some wounded

23     that they found.  All the surrendered and wounded were at the Nova Kasaba

24     football stadium.  He went and brought 100 to 150 loaves of bread to

25     distribute to them and all the food the base had.

Page 32806

 1             At one point General Mladic came and spoke to the men, receiving

 2     an applause from the Muslims.  He told them that everyone would be housed

 3     and fed and exchanged for Serb prisoners.  He ordered that they be

 4     secured and safely transported in buses to Bratunac where the civilian

 5     authorities would take them over.

 6             The witness escorted a column of buses containing these Muslims

 7     to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac where he turned them over to

 8     civilian police.

 9             And that completes the summary.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions for the witness, Mr. Ivetic?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 2 in both versions.

14        Q.   And I'd like to look at paragraph 6 with you.  And, Mr. Subotic,

15     I'd like to ask you first to tell us about this woman that came to you

16     and said her house was full of Muslims.  Was she someone known to you

17     from before?

18        A.   Yes, I knew her.

19        Q.   What was her ethnicity?

20        A.   I think that she was a Serb.  Yes, she was a Serb.

21        Q.   And where was her house located?

22        A.   Well, her house was looking from our command to the west, perhaps

23     2- or 300 metres from the seat of our command; that is to say, this

24     school.

25        Q.   And what did she tell you about how it is that she had noted the

Page 32807

 1     presence of Muslims troops in and around her house?

 2        A.   Well, I was then at the reception of our facility, our command.

 3     It was perhaps around 7.00, 7.30 a.m., immediately after breakfast.  She

 4     came running to us, barefoot and out of her wits.  We saw her running

 5     towards us and we thought that something had happened to her, to her

 6     children, because there had been several incidents with the neighbours.

 7     Sometimes we would provide medical assistance to children during the

 8     night if they had high fever or something like that, and that's what I

 9     had in mind.  However, when she came to us, she said, "Look, you are

10     sitting here and having fun and my house is full of Turks," she

11     emphasized, but she meant the Muslims.  That was how I understood her.

12     And she also added that her children had remained in the house.  She told

13     it not only to me but to all of us who were there at the time.

14        Q.   Now in paragraph 7 you describe that you were ambushed while

15     going towards the house.  Could you tell us about this ambush and

16     precisely what happened?

17        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

18        Q.   Let's try it again.  In paragraph 7, sir, you talk about being

19     ambushed while going towards the house.  Can you tell us about this

20     ambush and precisely what happened?

21        A.   So when she came and stated that her house was full of Muslims, I

22     was in the reception room.  I took one soldier with me to go in

23     reconnaissance to check the truthfulness of her story, and I ordered two

24     other soldiers to be in the armoured combat vehicle and to be at the

25     ready and to turn on the ignition, because that's one of the rules of the

Page 32808

 1     manner in which military police is supposed to work.

 2             So I when I set out towards her house, it's about 200 metres, and

 3     there is a river there called Jadar, and there is a bend in the river.

 4     While crossing it, I really saw many soldiers.  I didn't know whose

 5     soldiers they were, I couldn't see their insignia, but those soldiers

 6     fired at me.  It was heavy machine-gun fire.  Even a mortar,

 7     60-millimetre, the small infantry mortar, also fired at me.

 8        Q.   Now in paragraph 8 you state that you could see about

 9     1.000 Muslim soldiers there, and you estimate they had dozens of

10     machine-guns.  First of all, explain to us how it was you were able to

11     see and observe all this?

12        A.   Well, when they were firing at me, I responded using my own fire

13     and my soldier, who had a machine-gun then, did too, but we didn't have a

14     lot of ammunition.  The clearing between the river and the house is about

15     150 metres, and I just happened to have binoculars there, and it was

16     always there.  And then in terms of her statement that there were people

17     in the woods, I took the binoculars, and then during this short pause,

18     when I started firing at them, they didn't stop firing.  However, they

19     were withdrawing towards the woods.  So they weren't moving towards me.

20     They were really getting out of her house, as she had said that they were

21     inside, and they started withdrawing towards the woods.

22             I looked through the binoculars, say, for 15 or 20 seconds, for

23     instance, and I saw that there were almost 1.000 men.  I wouldn't know

24     what the exact number would be.  I went to football games, I went to

25     stadiums, but I cannot tell exactly.  About a thousand.  I counted about

Page 32809

 1     30, 40 machine-guns, and I can tell the difference between an ordinary

 2     automatic rifle and a machine-gun.  So some could be heard from the other

 3     side.  And my opinion to this day is that they did have about

 4     50 machine-guns in this group of 1.000 men.  Well, that's not really a

 5     group.  In my mind it's a brigade.

 6        Q.   And did they have any other armaments apart from these 30 to

 7     40 machine-guns that you have identified?

 8        A.   Well, yes, classical infantry weapons.  These rifles, automatic,

 9     semi-automatic.  They had a hand grenades and some of them had rifle

10     grenades in their pockets, like we used to do as well.  So they had it in

11     their pockets of their flak jackets as well.  We did that too so that we

12     would be prepared to act.  I think that these are rifle grenades.  I

13     don't think that it's a heavier weapon.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Now, I'd like to turn to page 3 in both languages,

16     and paragraphs 10 and 11.

17        Q.   And could you now tell us how and when you were able to contact

18     Major Malinic and when he actually arrived at the location?

19        A.   Major Malinic, my battalion commander, he was there all the time.

20     However, at that moment, when that woman came to see us and when there

21     was this ambush, when I got caught in that ambush, he wasn't there.  I

22     think he was in Milici - it's a town, 7 to 10 kilometres away from

23     Nova Kasaba - along with two other officers who arrived the day before

24     that I think for some training.  They went for breakfast.  And when I got

25     out, that is to say, when I asked for BOV to come and get me out, that is

Page 32810

 1     to say, from this armoured vehicle, there was fire aimed at enemy

 2     soldiers so they were acting as my support.  I and this soldier who went

 3     with me were withdrawing, and I was thinking that day, that moment, that

 4     I should take the soldier who was at the gate, the two Dutch soldiers

 5     that were down there at the school -- and I don't know exactly -- now,

 6     there were a few cooks, I think, and a few soldiers, and then to withdraw

 7     towards the town of Milici because I saw that I was being attacked by a

 8     force that should be reckoned with.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you slow down.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went to the gate to carry

11     this out, the soldier who was at the gate told me that he had received a

12     telephone call from Major Malinic, and he said that I should get more

13     ammunition and wait for him there, which is what I did.  However, while

14     getting the ammunition for the armoured vehicle and for us, because we

15     had two combat kits there, we didn't have more than that for securing the

16     school, I heard strong mortar fire, machine-gun fire, fighting in general

17     in the area of Konjevic Polje and the Nova Kasaba stadium.

18             I was thinking and I realised that civilians were living there,

19     including children and the elderly.  I set out with four of my soldiers

20     and this combat vehicle, went down there.  I told the soldier at the

21     reception desk where I was going and that he should inform me via radio

22     communication when Major Malinic arrives.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   And what happened to you and the combat vehicle when you set off

25     for the area of Konjevic Polje and the Nova Kasaba stadium?

Page 32811

 1        A.   Well, immediately after crossing the bridge in Nova Kasaba, I was

 2     hit from the direction of the forest; that is to say, machine-gun fire

 3     was opened at me.  But I was hit by some kind of anti-armour weapon.  I

 4     had a wounded soldier there and my vehicle was also attacked, and it

 5     wasn't destroyed altogether.  It was just the tires that were gone.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And, sir, now in relation to the events in paragraph 12,

 7     where you talk about six tear-gas canisters being fired into the woods,

 8     when did these events occur that we now talked about when your tires were

 9     shot out and your BOV came under fire?  When did that occur in relation

10     to the events in paragraph 12?

11        A.   Well, it happened just then, when I was hit at that bridge.  I

12     ordered the soldiers to get out of the combat vehicle so that it would

13     not be hit again.  But again, I gave orders to the driver because he was

14     the one who was supposed to handle that, so he fired these canisters, as

15     these canisters are part of the equipment of such a combat vehicle.  It's

16     tear-gas that is used against riots and so on.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     slow down.

19        Q.   Sir, sir, could you speak more slowly so that the interpreters

20     can get every word that you say.

21             Now, you started telling us where you got the tear-gas from, I

22     believe, and you said that these canisters are part of the equipment of

23     such a combat vehicle.  Could you please continue your answer from that

24     point on.

25        A.   It's not "kanistri" in Serbian.  It's 40 millilitres, canisters

Page 32812

 1     of 40 millilitres that is part of the equipment for a military vehicle,

 2     and it's used for the military police and it's used for preventing riots.

 3     So it is not lethal but they can harm a human being.

 4        Q.   Now, could you tell us precisely about why you made the decision

 5     to fire the tear-gas?  What was the reasons behind it?

 6        A.   Well, I made this decision for two reasons.  One reason is that I

 7     did not have any kind of heavy weapons to defend myself and to get out of

 8     there except for this machine-gun that is mounted on the vehicle and our

 9     rifles.  Secondly, this tear-gas does affect personnel and at the same

10     time there would be a smoke-screen, so I could cover myself in that way

11     because I saw that there was no other way of handling the situation but

12     trying to withdraw, to get out.

13        Q.   And now how long did this whole situation last before you were

14     able to get back to the base at the school?

15        A.   Well, from the moment when I left the base, the school, and

16     including that wounding of my soldier, and this ambush, and the firing of

17     tear-gas -- well, I don't know.  An hour and a half, two hours, that's

18     how long it took from the first ambush.  Something like that.  I cannot

19     say exactly now.  I cannot remember exactly.

20        Q.   And now in relation to the events that are described in

21     paragraph 11, where do these events that we've just talked about - the

22     firing of the tear-gas and the hour and a half, two hours that

23     transpired - where do they place chronologically in relation to what is

24     described in paragraph 11, the contact with Major Malinic?

25        A.   Well, that woman came to the gate about 7.30, and I first got in

Page 32813

 1     touch with Major Malinic after these first 15 Muslim soldiers were taken

 2     prisoner; that is to say, it was about two hours, something like that, so

 3     about 10.00, 10.30.

 4        Q.   And if we look now at paragraph -- well, first of all, can you

 5     tell us how it came to pass that the first 10 to 15 Muslim soldiers

 6     surrendered to you?

 7        A.   When I fired the tear-gas towards the forest, enemy fire abated,

 8     almost stopped, because they were confused by the tear-gas.  They

 9     probably didn't have gas masks and other protective gear.  Since I got

10     out of the shelter to see the extent of the damage done to the vehicle

11     and also I and this soldier of my wanted to help our wounded soldier who

12     was hit by a bullet in the neck.  So this group that was not in front of

13     us but from the Jadar River valley underneath the bridge, they came from

14     under the bridge with their hands up.  They surrendered to me.

15        Q.   Okay.  And now if you look at paragraph 13, you talk of speaking

16     to these 10 to 15 soldiers and of using the loudspeaker on the command

17     vehicle to call on other Muslims to surrender.  When did this happen,

18     that is to say, in relation to the time-frame when your BOV was struck

19     and you fired the tear-gas canisters?  How soon after did you use the

20     loudspeaker the first time to call for Muslims to surrender?

21        A.   Well, when they surrendered to me, I ordered them to put down

22     their weapons, which is what they had started doing even before I issued

23     that order.  They walked up to me to where the combat vehicle was, and

24     it's only then that I saw that these were Muslim soldiers, because I saw

25     the insignia on their sleeves.  In the morning I didn't even know who it

Page 32814

 1     was that had fired at me.

 2             During that morning fighting -- well, the UNPROFOR forces -- I

 3     mean, the two of them, one of them fired into the woods because we really

 4     didn't know who was attacking us.  When we talked to them after the

 5     surrender, all of that took about half an hour, 15 minutes, what they

 6     explained to me was that actually we were attacked by the entire

 7     28th Division, the Srebrenica Division.

 8        Q.   And at what point in time did you use the loudspeaker on the

 9     combat vehicle?  Was it at that time or sometime later; that is to say,

10     before or after you had had contact with Major Malinic, yourself

11     personally?

12        A.   Well, immediately then I used the loudspeaker because the Muslim

13     soldiers persuaded me to do that.  What they said to me was that there

14     were some other people up there in the hills that wanted to surrender.

15     They even gave me names, names and surnames of these people.  And then I

16     remembered that I had that loudspeaker so that I could reach out to them.

17     And the first thing that I said, that they shouldn't fire at us anymore

18     from up there, that I had some of their men there, and then I started

19     using some of these names that they had given me.  Now, were they family

20     members?  Were they their comrades?  I don't know.  So it was already

21     then that I started using the loudspeaker.

22        Q.   Now if we look at paragraph 16 of the statement - and we need to

23     go to page 4 in the Serbian for that - sir, did these Muslim soldiers

24     telling you about their commanders that were killing people who wanted to

25     surrender, did they give any details as to the identity of the commanders

Page 32815

 1     that were doing that on their side?

 2        A.   Well, that first group, no.  But the second group that

 3     surrendered to me, they said their komandirs, and they mentioned a name

 4     like Tursunovic, he was their boss, their commander, whatever, they kept

 5     complaining about him all the time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification.

 7             A little bit earlier you talked about the UNPROFOR forces, and

 8     then you said:

 9             "... I mean, the two of them, one of them fired into the woods

10     because we really didn't know who was attacking us."

11             These UNPROFOR soldiers, where were they?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were with us at the battalion

13     command, in that facility where I was staying, too.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And they stayed in the command or did they leave the

15     command at any point in time?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They spent that entire day at the

17     command.  They opened fire.  When I withdrew, while I was getting more

18     ammunition, while the first attack was still going on, one of them --

19     actually, that morning, we were all having coffee together at the

20     reception desk.  And when they started firing at us from the forest, then

21     I went towards the river, I managed to get back, and as I was getting

22     more ammunition and as I alerted the unit, the entire facility was under

23     fire.

24             One of these soldiers asked that I give him a weapon.  I gave him

25     my very own rifle.  He was in a trench together with my soldier at the

Page 32816

 1     gate, and they opened fire together because we didn't know who was firing

 2     at us.  But at any rate, we were under fire.  It was coming from the

 3     forest.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But they stayed in the command.  They never were in

 5     any vehicle together with you or one of your men?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  They stayed at the

 7     command.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Why were they there?  It's still -- UNPROFOR

 9     suddenly in the middle of your command.  I'm just wondering what were

10     they doing there having breakfast with you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came to us a day before that

12     and they asked us for help.  They had problems with some of our -- well,

13     paramilitary units.  That's what they said.  They were, I think, taking

14     weapons, vehicles, whatever.  I have no idea.  So they came to see us.

15     The day before all of this happened they were received there, they asked

16     us for help so that we could protect them and their equipment, their

17     weapons and so on.

18             Two vehicles arrived.  However, during the night, one vehicle

19     left with two or three soldiers and yet another vehicle with these two

20     soldiers spent the night there at the base.  They were with us, played

21     cards with us, had meals with us, and so on.  I really don't know what

22     their intention was, but they were asking the military police for help.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And did they come with their own vehicle, a UN

24     vehicle?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 32817

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And they used that or was that vehicle used at any

 2     point in time?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That vehicle was parked next

 4     to our vehicles, and their weapons were locked in their vehicle.  They

 5     had the key, and I know - I remember full well - that one of them wanted

 6     to go to the vehicle to get weapons.  However, the gun-fire was so strong

 7     that he certainly would have been killed, and that's why he asked me for

 8     a weapon.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When I say "whether the vehicle was used," I mean

10     was it driven anywhere by anyone?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was parked, the vehicle.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And it stayed there, as far as you're aware of, all

13     the time?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it stayed there after them

15     too, because I personally saw them off, the two of them.  They did not

16     feel safe in that vehicle because it was not armoured.  They asked for

17     our armoured vehicle, so I personally saw them off to the base in

18     Potocari.  They left us their vehicle.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Voluntarily.  They gave it as a present to you

20     or ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not as a present.  My

22     commander, Major Malinic, issued some kind of receipt to them and that's

23     how they left that vehicle at our base.  Was it a receipt or what kind of

24     document it was, I really don't know, but I know it was some kind of

25     document because they didn't want to take that vehicle because that road,

Page 32818

 1     Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje-Potocari, was under fire.  And my

 2     understanding was that they did not feel safe in their vehicle and that's

 3     why they asked for an armoured vehicle to take them to Potocari.  And

 4     they asked for our escort, too.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I was just putting these questions because

 6     suddenly the UNPROFOR soldiers became part of your testimony, where I

 7     didn't know exactly how to understand that.

 8             Mr. Ivetic, please -- yes.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One short clarification I would like to ask the

10     witness for.

11             You mentioned the second group of Muslim soldiers who surrendered

12     to you and your unit, and you said they mentioned a name like, something,

13     who was their boss or their commander.  Can you repeat the name of that

14     commander?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding was then that they

16     were mentioning Tursunovic, they called him Tursun, but it was

17     Tursunovic.  He was some kind of chief commander of theirs.  I don't know

18     the exact name but they did mention the name of Tursunovic.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Now just to finish off with the UNPROFOR, since we have started

23     that topic, on page 7 in both languages of the statement and paragraph 39

24     of the same, you talk of escorting the UNPROFOR members to their base in

25     Potocari.  First of all, who asked you to escort and deliver these

Page 32819

 1     persons to Potocari?

 2        A.   Major Malinic, my commander, issued that order to me that

 3     morning, that I prepare a patrol, an armoured combat vehicle, BOV, and to

 4     carry out this task; that is to say, to escort two members of UNPROFOR

 5     back to their base in Potocari.  Who gave him this order and who asked

 6     him to do that, I really don't know.

 7        Q.   And to whom did you hand over the UNPROFOR personnel when you

 8     arrived at Potocari?

 9        A.   Well, I didn't hand them over to anyone.  We arrived at their

10     base and there was a soldier there, I don't know what he was exactly.  He

11     had a uniform on and a big moustache.  They said goodbye to us and they

12     said "hvala" in Serbian, they thanked us, and they stayed at their base

13     in Potocari and we went back to our base.

14        Q.   Now if we could go back to page 4 in both languages and paragraph

15     22 of your statement.  You talk about -- you talk about giving the

16     Muslims who were at the stadium what food you had in the barracks and

17     getting some bread from shops, 100 to 150 loaves of bread.  Did you have

18     any consequences from this activity of bringing bread from these shops?

19        A.   Yes.  Several groups surrendered to me on that day.  It was water

20     that was the biggest problem of all, because the heat was unbearable that

21     day.  I have never experienced heat like that in my life.  And the second

22     problem was food.  We had bread and we had rations for about 48 hours, so

23     we shared that with them.  And I was given an order by Major Malinic to

24     go to Milici, and on the basis of my official ID of a military policemen,

25     I was authorised to take bread from bakeries.  On that day I went to

Page 32820

 1     Milici, I came back in about 15 to 20 minutes, it was already 12.00,

 2     1.00, there wasn't a lot of bread because usually most of the bread is

 3     there in the morning.

 4             I got 150 to 200 loaves and I gave it to the POWs, and they

 5     shared it amongst themselves.  Now, I don't know exactly, but two or

 6     three years after that, I was asked by the office of the prosecutor of

 7     the town of Vlasenica to come in, and there was a criminal report filed

 8     against me.  I stood accused of taking bread from the owners of these

 9     bakeries because my army had probably not refunded that bread and I could

10     not issue receipts.  On that day I didn't have any such thing, but I used

11     my military ID, including the number, so it was my personal ID.  I went

12     to the prosecutor's office in Vlasenica, I said all of that, and to this

13     day nobody's called me.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the usher please assist the witness in

15     adjusting the earphones.  They are not sitting at the right place.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And if we turn to paragraph 23, which will be on the

17     next page in the Serbian original.

18        Q.   Here, sir, you describe that the only problem that you had with

19     relation to the Muslims at Nova Kasaba stadium was some civilians of

20     Serbian ethnicity who came to the stadium and protested.  Can you tell us

21     what these Serb civilians were doing precisely?

22        A.   Well, they lived there in the area of Kasaba.  There were about

23     50 of them there.  About 50.  As for military-age men, there were about

24     10 or 15 of them, and there were children, old men, women there.  So we

25     did have a problem.  When we were taking these Muslim soldiers prisoner,

Page 32821

 1     we had a problem with them.  At first they threw stones at them, bricks,

 2     whatever it was that they found on the road.  And after that, we had to

 3     line up, and I really felt like tear-gassing these people who were

 4     casting these objects.  Also, they were issuing threats, they were

 5     swearing, and so on, but we couldn't stop that.  At any rate, they didn't

 6     manage to touch them and they stopped throwing stones at them and so on.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, for --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we're at the break --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, for very practical purposes, we do understand

10     that you would need 50 to 60 minutes.  Now, if it would be 60 minutes,

11     then that would be another 20 minutes from now.  Then, of course, you

12     could consider to go on until five minutes to 2.00 and then have the

13     20-minute break, but of course that would then bring us to the end of the

14     day.  If, however, it would be ten minutes, then we would still have to

15     start the cross-examination.

16             I'm a bit uncertain as well about how much time you would still

17     need.

18             MR. IVETIC:  I have about 18 minutes, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  18?

20             MR. IVETIC:  18, 1-8.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I have 38 recorded -- oh, 18 minutes.

22             MR. IVETIC:  18 to 20 minutes.  That's -- according to my

23     questions, that's what I should have left.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  18 to 20 minutes left.  Then you could --

25     if -- but please consult with Mr. Mladic, we could continue for another

Page 32822

 1     18 minutes and then adjourn for the day, or we could now take the break

 2     and then have the last 20 minutes after that.  I leave it in your hands

 3     what you'd prefer.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I've been authorised to keep going, so that's what

 5     I'll do.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then we'll conclude the

 7     examination-in-chief today and have an early adjournment.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Now, I want to turn to paragraphs 18 and 19 with you.

11             MR. IVETIC:  We have to go back one page in the Serbian, I think.

12     Yes.

13        Q.   And here you talk about when you went into the woods and viewed

14     the horrible sight of 500 dead soldiers.  First of all, can you describe

15     the geographic layout of the land where these bodies were located?

16        A.   Well, it's an area 3- or 400 metres away from the main road,

17     Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road.  I think that today it's called Jela

18     village, but I'm not sure.  To the right there are streams.  The terrain

19     is awful.  It's not level.  There are those streams or brooks, there is

20     woods, there is thicket.  While going up for about 200 metres, you reach

21     a meadow.  When you cross the meadow, to the right in a copse, there is a

22     big brook and that is where I stepped on the first bodies.

23        Q.   Now in relation to what you said earlier in your statement about

24     hearing intense fire from various directions, was one of the directions

25     where you previously heard fire exchanges coming from this area?

Page 32823

 1        A.   Well, yes, that was the direction from which I heard a lot of

 2     firing in the morning, and it wasn't clear to me what was going on.  I

 3     was the leader of the patrol that day and I patrolled along that stretch,

 4     and I knew that there was no strong military unit from our side there.

 5     So it wasn't clear to me where that fire was coming from.  And later on

 6     this was confirmed by everything that happened.

 7        Q.   Could you describe the dispersion of the bodies; that is to say,

 8     were they all in one place?  Or if not, how wide of an area are we

 9     talking about where these approximately 500 bodies were seen by you?

10        A.   Well, they were not in one single occasion.  They were in a

11     radius of perhaps 3- to 4- or 500 metres.  I don't know exactly.  I

12     cannot remember.  In several spots.  Somewhere there were 2 bodies, some

13     were 10, some there were 50.  What I saw were irregularly shaped wounds

14     as if they were caused by shells or fragmentation mines, as if they had

15     come on them, or as if someone threw grenades on them.  There were few

16     people who had been shot from infantry weapons.  So they lay in several

17     locations in this radius of 3- or 400 metres.

18             I was going there with the two Muslim prisoners because I wasn't

19     even aware of this precise spot.  It was they who had taken me there.

20     And by doing that, I had violated the code of a military police because I

21     shouldn't have left the armoured vehicle and the patrol.  But when

22     someone says 200 people, there is no reason not to believe them.

23        Q.   And did you have any indication how long these bodies had been

24     there?

25        A.   Well, it was a hot day and already you could feel the unpleasant

Page 32824

 1     smell.  It may have been during the night or during the morning.  In some

 2     places, I saw blood that had already coagulated and in other places it

 3     was still flowing.  So it may have been 6, 7, 8, or 10 hours.  I am not a

 4     specialist, I'm not an expert, I'm not a pathologist.  But during the

 5     night and in the morning it must have been that they had sustained these

 6     injuries.

 7        Q.   Now on your back from this location, did anything happen to you?

 8        A.   We found there five or six survivors, their soldiers who had been

 9     wounded but were still alive.  We bandaged them.  I told the two

10     prisoners who had brought me there to take two of those who were lighter

11     and carry them, and I with my men took another one.  We left two behind.

12     Later we sent people for them.  My combat armoured vehicle called me by

13     radio to tell me that a group of 200 men had surrendered themselves to

14     them, and I ordered them to escort them to the stadium, and I would take

15     a shortcut to reach the stadium.

16             However, while we were carrying these people, Muslim soldiers

17     took me prisoner.  There must have been at least ten addressed me, behind

18     them there were another 200, and they had come from the meadow that I had

19     described.  They told me to drop my gun, which I of course did.

20             At that moment, one of the prisoners I had sent to carry the

21     wounded men returned and he told them that I was helping them.  I said

22     that there were many people who had surrendered themselves and that if

23     they wanted to do so too, that they should follow me.  I asked if I could

24     take my weapon and that they could follow me if they wanted, which they

25     did.  To this day, it's not really clear to me how come that it all

Page 32825

 1     happened as it did, but the people followed me and reached the stadium in

 2     Nova Kasaba.  They threw down their weapons right there and then.  We did

 3     not have sufficient forces to disarm them and to secure them and us, as

 4     we were supposed to do by the rules of the military police, but we had

 5     good co-operation with them with regard to this.

 6        Q.   Now I want to ask you about the time-period when General Mladic

 7     came to the Nova Kasaba stadium, which starts at page 5 in English,

 8     page 6 in Serbian, and starts at paragraph 29 of your statement.

 9             First of all, sir, were you present for the entirety of

10     General Mladic's visit and stay at this location on that day?

11        A.   Yes.  Just at the moment when General Mladic arrived to us at the

12     stadium, I was coming downhill with some prisoners who had surrendered.

13     Throughout his stay, I didn't go back.  So all this time I was perhaps

14     3 or 4 metres away from him.

15        Q.   And during the time-period that General Mladic was present at

16     Nova Kasaba stadium and when you were 3 to 4 metres from him, did you

17     ever see or hear of anyone being killed at that location at the

18     Nova Kasaba stadium in the presence of General Mladic?

19        A.   No, no, not at all.  As long as General Mladic was there, but

20     even otherwise, I'm not aware of anyone having been killed.  There was

21     one murder but it was a woman who killed a prisoner from a hunting rifle,

22     but that was in the morning.  I forgot to say that earlier.  When I was

23     ambushed at the bridge, a woman came with a hunting rifle and said that

24     she had killed a Muslim who had entered her house.  But I'm not aware of

25     anyone having meddled with our prisoners who were secured by the military

Page 32826

 1     police.  We did not even allow our civilians to approach our prisoners.

 2     We were doing it as professionally as we could.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, just seeking one clarification.

 4             You said when you were ambushed, a woman came with a hunting

 5     rifle.  That was not the same woman as the woman who reported -- who had

 6     reported that there were so many Muslims in and around her house?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Not the same woman.  I

 8     knew the other woman, too.  I think that Pogaca or something like that

 9     was her last name.  She also lived close by the school but it wasn't the

10     same woman.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Now, in paragraph 30, you talk of General Mladic's order to

14     secure the transfer of prisoners to the civilian authorities via bus.

15     Did General Mladic give any additional orders as to how these prisoners

16     should be treated?

17        A.   Well, on General Mladic's arrival, to tell the truth, my

18     commander and I didn't think that this was right because we couldn't

19     provide adequate security for him.  He somehow suddenly went in among

20     them.  He shook hands with some of them.  Whether he had known them or

21     whether he introduced himself, I didn't know.  He talked with them about

22     Alija, about the war, and they stood up and applauded.  And he told them

23     that they would be exchanged, that they should listen to us, the military

24     policemen, that is to say, and he told us and told us strictly to take

25     care of the prisoners, that some buses would be arriving within an hour,

Page 32827

 1     that the men should sign their names and that they would should all board

 2     the bus and deliver it to the civilian police in Bratunac.  That is what

 3     I heard and saw then when General Mladic was present there at the

 4     stadium.

 5        Q.   Now, in the course of all the activities that you've discussed,

 6     the various attacks and ambushes, during the course of that day, did you

 7     at that time have information about the VRS operation against the town of

 8     Srebrenica and its results?

 9        A.   Well, no, I didn't have any information.  I don't think that even

10     my commander, Major Malinic, had any, because probably he wouldn't have

11     left me alone with five men down there to secure a school.  I was a young

12     officer at the time, a sergeant.  I was a tactician, not a strategist.

13     So I really didn't have any information about any of that going on.  The

14     first thing I learned, personally, was when I took these five [as

15     interpreted] men prisoner, and then they actually told me that the whole

16     division had come upon me.

17        Q.   Sir, the transcript records you as saying "these five men," is

18     that in fact what you said, these five prisoners?

19        A.   15.

20        Q.   Sir, I thank you for answering my questions on behalf of myself

21     and my client, General Mladic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes the direct examination.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one short question with respect to

25     paragraph 31.  In paragraph 31 -- and perhaps we could move to the next

Page 32828

 1     page in English.

 2             At the end you say:

 3             "I climbed on the vehicle and through the loudspeaker I told the

 4     Muslims in the field that they should come in an orderly fashion to --

 5     and enter the buses."

 6             And then you say in your statement they should all board them in

 7     an orderly fashion and find are a place for themselves and before they

 8     get on the buses they should drink some water.  Where was the water they

 9     could get?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There in Nova Kasaba at the

11     football pitch where we were then.  After General Mladic's order to take

12     care of the prisoners, he turned personally to me, and said, "Kid, make

13     sure that each prisoner should arrive to Bratunac," which I made sure

14     later.  And they drank the water.  There was this river called Jadar,

15     50 to 70 metres next to the stadium.  We let them go there to drink water

16     and cool themselves because the day was really extremely hot.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Subotic.  We'd like

19     to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  But

20     before you leave the courtroom, I would like to instruct you that you

21     should not speak --

22             MR. IVETIC:  We have videolinks --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, we have videolinks.  I was just about to --

24     as a matter of fact, I was just about to address the videolinks.

25             We'll not continue with your testimony tomorrow because

Page 32829

 1     videolinks have been scheduled.  And I instruct you that whenever we will

 2     resume, and you will be kept updated by the Victims and Witness Section

 3     on when we expect to resume, but that you should not speak or communicate

 4     in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is

 5     testimony you have given today or whether that is testimony still to be

 6     given in the near future.

 7             If you have understood this, then you may follow the usher.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood.  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you are right because -- it must be that

11     it's Monday morning, but the next brief item that I would like to address

12     is the following:  That you have scheduled or the Defence has scheduled a

13     number of witnesses who will give their testimony via video-conference

14     link this week, and everyone is aware that it takes quite some

15     preparations, significant amount of time, effort, and resources to make

16     these videolinks possible.

17             We would like to hear from both parties whether they believe that

18     the witness schedule for this week will be met.  If the current schedule

19     is not feasible, the Chamber would like to hear alternative proposals

20     from the parties to ensure that the testimonies of all video-conference

21     link witnesses are concluded by this week, including possibly to extend

22     on Friday or -- but could you please try to find out how we would proceed

23     in such a way that we do not waste all the efforts that were made to hear

24     the testimony through videolink.

25             Then I'll not insist on an answer.  But if there is anything

Page 32830

 1     which the parties would consider that we would have to know, and we

 2     really want to know everything that would disturb the schedule, then do

 3     not hesitate to approach Chamber staff even this afternoon.

 4             Then we adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, the

 5     10th of March, still at 9.30 in the morning, still in this same

 6     courtroom, I, but we'll hear the next evidence through videolink.

 7             We stand adjourned.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day

10                           of March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.