1 Tuesday, 10 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the parties had reached an
12 agreement on practical matters for next week, but I would just like
13 to first -- for this week, but I'd like to first start with the videolink
14 so to see that that's done as quickly as possible because we're always
15 dependent on technical support.
16 I'd like to verify first whether the videolink is functioning
18 I see on my screen that at the far end the microphone would be
19 not be activated. Now it is it on. I see it on my screen. Could the
20 representative of the Registry at the other side of the videolink confirm
21 that she hears me and that she sees me.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours. I
23 hereby confirm that we can hear you and we can see you from this side.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And we can hear you and we can see you. Could you
25 tell us who is with you in the videolink room.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself,
2 there is the ITSS ICTY technician.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness be escorted into your
4 videolink room.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And the next witness, no protective measures, would
7 be Mr. Djuric.
8 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for the witness to arrive.
10 May I take it that the witness has been informed about the course
11 of events during this videolink testimony?
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we explained him -- I explained him
13 personally and my investigator met with him or called him yesterday and
14 explained the same.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court via videolink]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, can you hear us and can you see us?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I can see you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, before you give evidence the Rules
20 require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text is now
21 handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: MILENKO DJURIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 [Witness testified via videolink]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Djuric. Please be seated.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, questions will be put to you by
5 Mr. Ivetic. You'll soon see him on your screen. Mr. Ivetic is a member
6 of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
7 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djuric.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I would first ask that you repeat your full name slowly so that
13 it is properly entered into the record.
14 A. Milenko.
15 Q. And your last name?
16 A. Djuric.
17 Q. Sir, did you give a written statement to the Defence team for
18 General Ratko Mladic?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: I would like to take a look at 1D01760.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letters are very small.
22 MR. IVETIC: Is it possible to zoom in on the other end?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's okay. Now I can see
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. Sir, could you tell us if you recognise the signature on the
2 first page of this document?
3 A. Yes, this is my signature.
4 Q. And if we could now turn to the last page of the document, can
5 you tell us, sir, whose signature appears on this page of the document?
6 A. Yes, this is my signature.
7 Q. And, sir, does the date which is recorded herein correspond to
8 your recollection of the date you would have signed this statement?
9 A. I think that the date is correct, yes.
10 Q. Subsequent to signing this statement, did you have a chance to
11 read the same in full to determine if everything was correctly recorded
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And so do you stand by everything as written in your statement as
15 being accurate?
16 A. Yes, everything I stated is accurate and I stand by it.
17 Q. Sir, if I were to ask you the same questions today on the same
18 matters as in your written statement, would your answers today be
19 substantially the same as is written in your statement?
20 A. Yes, I wouldn't change my statement. I stand by what I said.
21 Q. And, sir, you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth
22 today. Does that mean that what is recorded in your statement is
23 truthful in nature?
24 A. Looking from my point of view, everything is accurate. I stated
25 what I know, what I experienced. I couldn't talk about the things that I
1 don't know.
2 Q. And do you believe everything that you have spoken about to be
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time we would tender 1D01760
6 as the next exhibit number.
7 MR. MacDONALD: No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.
9 Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement receives number D927.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D927 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would read the public
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 MR. IVETIC: Milenko Djuric was born in Kotor Varos and is a
16 permanent resident of Vrbanci village in Kotor Varos municipality. He
17 lived in Rastik village from his birth to the beginning of the war. His
18 village is situated next to a Muslim village called Vecici. Vecici had
19 30 houses and 700 to 800 residents, whereas his village had 30 houses and
20 approximately 100 residents.
21 He was mobilised on 10 May 1992 into the Territorial Defence and
22 tasked with protecting the Rastik village. Rastik village was attacked
23 on several occasions by the forces in Vecici and were thus forced to move
24 out. The Muslims set up barricades in Vrbanci on several occasions and
25 thus put the witness and other Serbs under complete blockade and
1 isolation from Kotor Varos.
2 On 24 July 1992, the witness was on his way to his barn when
3 Muslim and Croat soldiers captured him. He was tied up and locked in a
4 cellar of the house of Kasim Ilibic in Vecici where several other Serbs
5 were held. They were tortured and subjected to physical and
6 psychological abuse. Two other Serbs being held were killed.
7 The ABiH forces in Vecici had around 500 to 600 men, not all of
8 them wearing uniforms, but even those without uniforms were armed. At
9 the beginning of November, these forces were ambushed by the Serb army,
10 and the witness and other survivors were liberated.
11 After the witness was liberated, he heard from neighbours that
12 the local Serb population retaliated against the captured Muslim soldiers
13 in Grabovica because of the crime they had committed against the local
14 Serb population. They said that the Serb army was unable to prevent the
15 revenge, and the mothers of killed Serb boys were the most aggressive.
16 Your Honour, that completes the summary.
17 Q. Mr. Djuric, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the
18 Defence team, I thank you for your testimony. We have no further
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. MacDONALD: No questions, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.
23 Mr. Djuric, you've been only four a very short time with us.
24 Nevertheless, I would like to thank you for coming to the location where
25 the videolink room is and for having --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- and for having answered the questions that were
3 put to you by Mr. Ivetic. Even if it was short, it doesn't mean that
4 your testimony is that short because we have your written statement,
5 which was admitted into evidence, and therefore even if there was not --
6 there were not a lot of words spoken today, nevertheless your statement
7 is received and is in evidence before this Chamber.
8 I'd like to thank you again very much, and I wish you a safe
9 return home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
13 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if I may be excused, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're excused.
15 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness, which
17 is a witness who will testify without protective measures. And
18 Mr. Lukic, that would be Mr. Branko Beric?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for Mr. Beric to be escorted into
21 the videolink room.
22 Madam Registrar at the other side of the videolink, is the next
23 witness ready to enter the videolink room?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours. He is on his
25 way. He is just walking a little bit slow.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for him to enter that courtroom.
2 Mr. Lukic, I abuse the time by reminding you that the Chamber
3 expected you to give us further information as to the drafting and filing
4 of expert reports.
5 [The witness entered court via videolink]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that the witness entered the videolink
7 room, and you prepare for it, Mr. ...
8 Madam Registrar, I have some technical problems.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, good morning, Mr. Beric.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently you can hear us. Can you see us?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see you and I can hear you
14 very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Beric, before you give evidence, the Rules
16 require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text is now
17 handed out to you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: BRANKO BERIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 [Witness testified via videolink]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Beric. Please be seated.
24 Mr. Beric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll soon
25 see him on your screen. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Beric.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Could you please slowly tell us your name for the record.
6 A. Branko Beric.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D1675.
8 Q. Mr. Beric, did you give a written statement to the General Mladic
9 Defence team?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Before you on the screen, you can see a document. Can you see a
12 signature on the document, and do you recognise the signature?
13 A. This is my personal signature. I recognise it.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last page of
15 the document.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sure.
17 This is again my personal signature. I signed the document on
18 the 26th of June, 2014.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. So the signature on the last page is also yours. When you -- or,
21 rather, did you have an opportunity to read your statement and did you
22 make sure that everything was recorded correctly?
23 A. Yes, I had just one little objection.
24 Q. I will make short pauses between your answers and my questions to
25 allow the interpreter to interpret everything correctly. I don't want to
1 confuse you.
2 A. Please make sure that the interpretation is really correct.
3 Q. What is recorded in your statement, or rather what you stated to
4 the best of your recollection, is it all accurate and truthful?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
7 provide the same answers?
8 A. In essence, yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would tender this statement into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, Mr. Lukic, the witness, at page
12 9, line 24, said: "Yes, I just had one little objection." Was that
13 objection attended to?
14 MR. LUKIC: At that moment, I was switching in between channels,
15 so I didn't hear him saying that.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, you heard Judge Moloto. He heard you
17 say that you had a small objection to the statement. Did you really say
18 that; and if you did, what did you have in mind?
19 A. That I said that now, that I had an objection?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, I only said that I would like to ask you to watch the
22 interpretation, make sure that it is correct when I provide my answers.
23 That's all I said.
24 Q. Is there anything that you would like to correct in the statement
25 or not, according to you?
1 A. I don't think so, no.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the number would be.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D1675 receives number D928.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D928 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I would read statement summary of
7 Mr. Beric and I will have several questions for him.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Branko Beric will testify about interethnic relationships in
11 Prijedor before, during, and after the multi-party elections, emphasizing
12 that personally he saw Muslim groups training for combat at Carakova
14 He will describe how a mortar artillery piece exploded in the
15 village due to improper use. Mr. Beric will recount that as early as
16 February or March 1992, the Muslims started to move out women and
17 children from Prijedor voluntarily and in an organised manner.
18 He will also speak about individuals wearing sweat suits in
19 Prijedor and its surroundings as a sign of membership in the Patriotic
20 League; i.e., in the Muslim military formations.
21 Branko Beric was assigned to the Territorial Defence Staff and
22 the logistics base established by the SDS, which was headed by Major
23 Kuruzovic. He will present information about the establishing of
24 Trnopolje collection centre, about helping the Muslim population at
25 Trnopolje, by providing accommodations, food, and medical aid.
1 Mr. Beric will testify that no individuals were killed at
2 Trnopolje and there was no machine-gun nests or barb wire.
3 He will describe how Ms. Penny Marshall made the photograph by
4 which she deceived the international public. He will testify that the
5 population there was provided food by the ICRC and the municipal
6 Red Cross.
7 Branko Beric has information about the secret storages of
8 medicines and other military medical supplies found at Kozarac which were
9 indicative of preparations for the war.
10 He will also describe some examples where he provided assistance
11 to the Muslims at Trnopolje.
12 And that was his statement summary. Now I have several questions
13 for this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could I ask one question to the
15 witness, Mr. Lukic.
16 Witness, you gave a statement. That statement has been admitted
17 into evidence. Do you remember when it was not that you signed the
18 statement but that you gave the statement? Therefore, the day on which
19 you were interviewed? When was that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same day. Or perhaps a day
21 or a couple of days earlier. I don't remember the date, but that's when
22 I signed the statement. On the 26th of June, 2014.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was almost immediately not more than
24 a few days after you were interviewed. Is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that, approximately.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Beric, did you have an opportunity after the war to talk to
5 your fellow citizens who were of Muslim ethnicity? Did you talk to them
6 about why they called Trnopolje a camp?
7 A. May I answer?
8 Q. Yes, yes, please go ahead.
9 A. These are my friends, former and current. Large numbers of them,
10 especially during the summer, during vacation time we meet up. We're
11 happy to see each other. We have a drink together. We are delighted to
12 see one another. Most often these people come from Sweden and other
14 During these conversations, some of these friends of mine -- I
15 mean, regardless, we grew up together, we never paid attention to ethnic
16 background. They told me that after interrogations in the camp, which
17 nobody is denying, Omarska or Trnopolje -- no, sorry, Keraterm. When
18 they came to the centre in Trnopolje, within a few days time, they would
19 leave, go to third countries or go home. They had the feeling that they
20 had come to the best hotel in the world, like the Hyatt hotel, compared
21 to Omarska, the camp of Omarska, of course, if you compare that to the
22 collection centre in Trnopolje.
23 When during these conversations why is it that now some Muslims,
24 after these unfortunate events, and often not those who were at the
25 collection centre or reception centre, would say that they say honest
1 people never said that. I said, "Why do you call the reception centre a
2 camp?" Then they said to me that thanks to this statement, they were
3 given major privileges in third countries as such. If they say that they
4 were not in a camp, they would have less benefits and less privileges in
5 third countries, and also when returning to their own places of
7 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 8 of your statement --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have that on our
9 screens, paragraph 8, page 3.
10 Q. You say:
11 "In Trnopolje, I also saw a large number of Muslims from Kozarac
12 dressed in sweat suits, while they wore military-issue boots."
13 Did you react in some way when you noticed that?
14 A. Before this answer, I have to provide Their Honours with an
15 explanation. Because I worked in the veterinary service, and for years
16 everybody knew me all over Prijedor in each and every settlement, and
17 when I'd come in the morning between 9.00 and 10.00, by 1.00 at the
18 latest, since I was in charge of the medical unit, I brought in medicine
19 and they had an infirmary of their own, a Muslim infirmary that was
20 organised at the reception centre of Trnopolje. There was good doctors
21 there and a colleague of mine, Hasa, a veterinarian, was also working
22 there. I brought them whatever they needed.
23 On one occasion, because there were thousands of people there at
24 one point, and I would even bring them substances that would do away with
25 the unpleasant smells. Everybody knew me, masses of people, when I'd
1 come to that football pitch, and a lot of people would gather around me.
2 For example, on such occasions, I happened to be a smoker, to this day,
3 and I'd always have two packs on me, and I would always give them
5 I knew lots of these young men and it was really hard for me.
6 Nothing had happened. They came to the reception centre of their own
7 free will. Of course, it was the safest for them there. This is what
8 I'm trying to explain, paragraph 8.
9 I noticed that many of them wore track suits and jeans, and they
10 had military-issue boots as footwear. I advised them to throw away these
11 military-issue boots anywhere and that it would be better for them to
12 walk around barefooted, it was already summertime, because the police
13 would come in and they would come looking for some people on the basis of
14 testimonies provided in Omarska by their own people, and then they would
15 take them to Omarska. And I didn't want these young men to suffer
16 because they were so naive. They listened to what I said, and hundreds
17 of them threw away these boots, military-issue boots. They walked around
18 barefoot until they went to third countries. They freely moved about,
19 they went for baths, they would find slippers or flip flops which they
20 used until they left.
21 Q. Thank you. We need page 5 of your statement now, paragraph 23.
22 Mr. Beric, in this paragraph, you are commenting upon the skinny
23 Muslim from the photographs in Trnopolje. Do you know anything more
24 about him? Can you tell us more about him? Do you know him? What can
25 you tell us about him today?
1 A. I know quite a bit. First of all, this young man -- well, I was
2 there in that period. I am saying that I was there briefly for a month,
3 a month and a half, and after that I was sent to the front for some
4 reason. Probably because I helped Muslims a lot --
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. You say you were there. Where were
6 you? Is that paragraph 23 --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reception centre.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That is Trnopolje, not Omarska. Is that well
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trnopolje.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This young man was not at Trnopolje
13 at the reception centre there, probably. I cannot say exactly whether he
14 was in Omarska or Keraterm. And then after the interrogation, he was
15 released. He was released to the Trnopolje reception centre, and from
16 there he went to third countries very quickly because the
17 International Red Cross organised transportation to third countries
18 practically every day either on buses or trains or trucks.
19 This young man was ill unfortunately even before the war. His
20 own neighbours testified to that to this day. I must say that I'm sorry
21 to have heard that he had died recently. I'm sorry that this lady
22 journalist deceived the entire world because in Trnopolje there was never
23 any barbed wire or --
24 Q. Just a minute, please. Just a minute. I asked you about this
25 young man. The skinny young man. What do you know about him? Where is
1 he from? What was his ailment? Do you know anything?
2 A. I do. As far as I know --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, let's first ask about the name of the
4 person, whether the witness --
5 Do you know what the name of that, as you said, skinny person is?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I cannot remember right now. I
7 knew so many people. All over the municipality.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Where exactly did he live? A village, what house?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not tell you exactly now.
10 Just roughly. Close to a hamlet, Sivci.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed and tell us what you know more about
12 this person, preferably what you personally observed and know of rather
13 than what others told you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see that because already
15 then when this was photographed I wasn't there. I was at the front line
16 in Gradacac, even before that. But I can describe the place where this
17 photomontage was done.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. We have that in your statement. You've already described that.
20 Tell me, do you know what this young man's ailment was, to the
21 best of your knowledge?
22 A. From his neighbours and friends, Muslims and others, I heard that
23 the young man had tuberculosis, even before the war. Whoever wanted to,
24 perhaps the Prosecutor or somebody, could have found this documentation
25 at the health centre in Prijedor even before the war, because you know
1 that such illnesses were always filed in records.
2 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 35 --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we need page 6 of the statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the witness could also tell us where he met
5 this person before the war.
6 Could you tell us, Witness, how and when did you meet that person
7 before the war?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About a year before the war in our
9 local infirmary that belonged to the Prijedor veterinary station, I was
10 sent there to replace a colleague, a vet, who had gone to do his military
11 service, so I knew that area too.
12 We had different activities of prevention and cure. I know that
13 when I went out on these prevention campaigns, when we vaccinated dogs in
14 particular, I noticed a young man like that. I think that I saw him near
15 this hamlet of Sivci.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you speak to him?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Everybody avoids such people.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you didn't speak to him, but he looked like the
19 one, if I understand you well, that you saw on this photograph?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 35 of your statement, we're just going
24 to focus briefly on Nusret Sivac, you said in this paragraph of your
25 statement that he was never in Trnopolje.
1 A. May I say --
2 Q. Which period does this pertain to? When is it that you know that
3 he was not there, and do you know when he left Prijedor?
4 A. First, could I just give an introduction?
5 Q. Briefly, please.
6 A. I knew Nusret Sivac --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please answer the question to
8 start with. If there's any further explanation needed, Mr. Lukic will
9 let you know.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
11 It is a well-known matter that Nusret Sivac was in the Omarska
12 camp, and nobody is denying that. When he was released after having been
13 interrogated at the Omarska camp, of course, at first they were all
14 brought to the reception centre in Trnopolje. Nusret Sivac spent only
15 one day free in the reception centre, and then he left, I don't know how.
16 I don't know whether he walked or took a vehicle. It's not far away. He
17 went home to Prijedor where he had a wife and son. It so happened that
18 he was an exceptional personal friend of my niece and her husband.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
20 the names of these persons.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please repeat the name -- names
23 of the persons you just mentioned.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nusret Sivac was friends before the
25 war with my niece and her husband, Mladen Vukajlovic and
1 Vesna Selimbegovic Vukajlovic. He turned to them when he came home, and
2 Mladen, as a matter of fact, when he said that he wanted to go to a third
3 country, Mladen offered him money, and he said that there was no need for
4 that. So then through them he asked my nephew, my oldest sister,
5 Selimbegovic Ciro - unfortunately, he and his friend, Mile, they died
6 after the war - and they drove him from Prijedor to Gradiska as
7 requested. And this nephew of mine, because of his name and surname,
8 risked his own life.
9 And then after the war, Nusret Sivac, as he was promoting his
10 business related to his book, he wrote the most terrible things about my
11 nephew. He said the most terrible things. And he actually did him a
12 favour driving him to Gradiska, risking his own life. People could have
13 asked en route who you are, where are you coming from, and they could
14 have all fared very badly. However, thank God everything ended well.
15 May I add something to that?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone is off.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't -- Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I think the witness asked you
22 something --
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- and you didn't switch on your microphone when you
25 responded. Please repeat what you said.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Beric, just briefly, if you can, our time is running. What
3 do you wish to add?
4 A. I can add something else. I don't understand -- many Muslims
5 wrote books. He was one of them. But I don't understand how come that a
6 person who was in Omarska all the time can describe Keraterm and the
7 reception centre in Trnopolje and what was going on in town? Could he
8 have possibly been in all those places at the same time?
9 Q. Well, this was a question, and you're here to answer questions.
10 I can't answer your question or anybody else in the courtroom.
11 In any case, thank you, Mr. Beric. This is all we had for you at
12 the moment. Thank you for providing your statement and thank you for
13 answering our questions.
14 A. I would like to thank the Court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
16 Mr. Traldi, wouldn't it be wise to take the break now, five
17 minutes early, so that you can then finish your cross-examination in
18 one -- or would you be finished in five minutes? No.
19 MR. TRALDI: I think I could use five minutes fairly efficiently,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll --
22 Mr. Beric, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You
23 will see him soon on your screen. Mr. Traldi is counsel for the
25 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
2 Q. Good morning, sir.
3 A. Good morning, Mr. Judge.
4 Q. I have a few questions about your responsibilities during the
5 relevant period.
6 First, you say at the end of your statement that you left
7 Prijedor on the 28th of July, 1992, and went to the front at Gradacac.
8 What unit were you a member of when you went to the front?
9 A. I was assigned to the 3rd Battalion when I arrived at the front
11 Q. That's the 3rd Battalion of the 43rd Motorised Brigade of the
12 VRS; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When were you mobilised into that unit?
15 A. About a month or a month and a half following the attack on
16 Prijedor. I was a member of the medical service in the logistics base
17 before that. That was my specialty from the JNA.
18 Q. Just to try to get the chronology a little bit more precise. In
19 your evidence, how long had you been a soldier in that battalion before
20 you went to the front?
21 A. I don't remember the exact date when I joined the battalion. It
22 was first the 7th Battalion and then it was renamed and became the
23 3rd Battalion.
24 Q. And turning to your work at the logistics base that you just
25 mentioned in Cirkin Polje, who was your superior officer there?
1 A. Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic. He was the chief of that logistics base.
2 Q. And did you have a rank there?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Now --
5 A. I was a foot soldier.
6 Q. You mention in your statement that you had a driver. Why were
7 you entitled to a driver?
8 A. Yes. Because in peacetime and in wartime alike, every paramedic
9 has a vehicle assigned to him and a driver. I was a paramedic.
10 Q. And that logistics base, among other things, provided food and
11 supplies to the VRS and to the police; right?
12 A. I don't remember whether supplies were provided to the police,
13 but, yes, the VRS, because the VRS provided security for Trnopolje and
14 the logistics base. I just happened to know that on one occasion when we
15 received a large quantities of cigarettes, those cigarettes were
16 distributed among the police as well.
17 Q. As to Trnopolje, did you ever have any position at Trnopolje, any
18 official position?
19 A. No. I would just go there every day, around 9.00 or between 9.00
20 and 12.00 or 9.00 and 1.00, and I inquired as to what they were missing,
21 what they needed. Sometimes I would deliver some medical supplies that
22 they needed. On one occasion, the most important thing for them was to
23 have disinfectant for the toilet bowls. There were a lot of people there
24 and there was foul smell there. I had a very good co-operation with
25 their medical unit. There was a very good doctor and my colleague, Hasa.
1 I had very good co-operation with them.
2 Q. Now there was a foul small, in part, because thousands of people
3 were using the outdoor toilets that they'd dug there; right?
4 A. Well, yes, that as well. Thousands upon thousands. Some were in
5 their vehicles, some in the school. Especially mothers and children were
6 in the school because it was a good building. There was a big sports
7 facility there, and that's where they were accommodated.
8 Q. And you yourself were not present at Trnopolje or even in
9 Prijedor municipality anymore when the journalists' visit to Trnopolje
10 occurred; right?
11 A. There were all sorts of journalists, you know --
12 Q. Sir --
13 A. I only saw --
14 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. The visit you refer to in your
15 statement, that occurred after you had gone to the front at Gradacac;
17 A. That female journalist who is the author of that video-clip or
18 that photo featuring barbed wire, is that what you have in mind?
19 Q. It is.
20 A. I wasn't there. But I am familiar with the area where that photo
21 was taken. That area is the same. It hasn't changed to this very day.
22 There was never barbed wire there and the footprint of the area is only
23 2 square metres.
24 Q. Similarly, you were never there when Nusret Sivac was there and
25 you don't know how long he was in Trnopolje; right?
1 A. I don't know how long. A day, a couple of days, three days
3 Q. And when I say in your statement: "I state that there was no
4 fence around the centre and that Nusret Sivac was never there," in fact,
5 as you've testified today, you know he was there, and you've put in your
6 statement and attested to this morning something that you know not to be
7 the truth; right?
8 A. I never stated that he had never been in Trnopolje. I only know
9 that when he was released from Omarska, he spent a couple of days there,
10 and from there, anybody could go wherever they wanted. The Red Cross was
11 very efficient in organising departures to third countries. He went home
12 and then my cousin -- by nephew took him, his wife, and their son to
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any way you can assist us where the
15 witness, in the English version, is recorded as having said "Nusret Sivac
16 was never there"? Is there any possibility that there is a language
18 MR. LUKIC: There is no language issue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There's no language issue.
20 Then I leave it you Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Sir, I note we're at the time for the break. Before we break,
23 I'm just going to put to you that you've included something in your
24 statement that you've testified today that you clearly know not to be the
25 truth. That's right, isn't it?
1 A. It may have been a slip of the tongue. I know that all those
2 were released from Omarska would end in Trnopolje first, and then they
3 would go home, and then to third countries. It may have been a slip of
4 the tongue. I may have misspoken.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if the witness says that he --
7 Witness, if you say you may have misspoken, do you mean to say
8 that Mr. Sivac did not go to Trnopolje, because today you told us that he
9 would have been there if only for a couple of days. Is that the truth?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes. This is the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in your statement, which you said you had
12 reviewed and to which you attested today, we read:
13 "I state that there was no fence around the centre and that
14 Nusret Sivac was never there."
15 But today you are telling us that he was there, though you do not
16 know for how long.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my assumption about the
18 reception centre in Trnopolje that there were people there who stayed for
19 a month or 20 days, but there were also those who had been interrogated
20 and released and then they would stay there only a day or a couple of
21 days. That's what I had in mind.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People who stayed there in my
24 mind --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you just don't know, if I understand you
1 well, for how long Nusret Sivac would have been in Trnopolje?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take break. We'd like to see you back in 20
4 minutes, Mr. Beric.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 [The witness stands down via videolink]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
10 [The witness takes the stand via videolink]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you are ready, you may continue.
12 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Sir, I want to ask now about your colleague, or your fellow
14 veterinarian, Sead Sivac, who you mention in your statement. Were you
15 two friends?
16 A. Before the war.
17 Q. And about how old was he in 1992?
18 A. Much younger than me; 23, 24, or 25. He was a student first, and
19 then he joined the army. I really don't know how old he was. We worked
20 together for a year, and we had a good relationship.
21 Q. Have you seen him since the war?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the unnecessary microphones please be
23 switched off.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. You know he was detained in Omarska in 1992; right?
2 A. I don't know that personally. I only heard about that. I
3 personally didn't see him there.
4 Q. What you heard is also that he was taken out of Omarska one night
5 in the summer of 1992 and never returned; right?
6 A. I don't know that. I only heard that he had been in Omarska.
7 Unfortunately, I have not seen him after the war. I don't know what his
8 lot was. People say that he was killed. I suppose that if he were
9 alive, I would have seen him. There's no reason for the two of us not to
10 meet after the war. We had a good relationship.
11 Q. Now, you testified earlier today that you thought people would
12 suffer if they were sent to Omarska. That's because you knew the people
13 detained there, like your friend Sead Sivac, were being detained in
14 terrible, criminal conditions, that people were being beaten, that people
15 were being killed; right?
16 A. Let me tell you, I don't know that but I heard stories, and I
17 also saw on TV, I heard the testimonies of the people who were charged
18 with such misdeeds in Omarska. Nobody in Prijedor denies that that
19 happened. We saw things on TV, we know that there were trials. It would
20 be a sin for anybody to say that things like that did not happen.
21 Q. Well, just to be very specific. You testified on direct that you
22 were concerned while you were at Trnopolje that people would suffer if
23 they were sent to Omarska. You were aware at that time in the summer of
24 1992 already that serious crimes were being committed against the
25 prisoners in that camp; right?
1 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a technical problem. Could we try
2 to restore the connection.
3 I think ... for one second I thought we would have restored the
4 connection, but it seems that it's gone again.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We're back.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems that we're connected again.
7 Could I just verify. First of all, I see that the far end
8 microphone is switched off. Could that be switched on again. It is.
9 The microphone is on now.
10 Mr. Beric, can you now hear us again and can you see us again?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And can you see us as well?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see you personally.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, I'll repeat my last question.
18 You testified on direct that you were concerned while you were at
19 Trnopolje that people would suffer if they were sent to Omarska. You
20 were aware at that time in the summer of 1992 already that serious crimes
21 were being committed against the prisoners in Omarska camp; right?
22 A. I can't say that I was aware of crimes. I only knew that there
23 was a camp and that the conditions were somewhat harsh. Nobody in
24 Prijedor denies that it was a camp. It would be very sad if somebody
25 denied that.
1 As to what was going on there, I don't know. I was never there.
2 But I did see video-clips. I know that there were trials. I know that
3 people have been taken to task for the goings-on there.
4 Q. Sir, focusing very directly on what you knew in the summer of
5 1992, what made you think the conditions there were harsh?
6 A. Well, towards the end of my occasional visits to Trnopolje, some
7 were already being released from the camp in Omarska and I could notice
8 that they didn't look too good. They complained of the conditions. They
9 suffered from dysentery. I helped many of them in the out patients
10 clinic in Trnopolje. There was an acquaintance of mine, a neighbour,
11 Alija, who had arrived completely naked. There were a lot of abandoned
12 houses in Trnopolje. I took him to one of them where he found some
13 clothes, some very new and clean and good clothes. He had arrived
14 completely naked and he had dysentery, and based on that I could conclude
15 that the conditions in Omarska were bad.
16 Q. And the houses that had been abandoned in Trnopolje village,
17 they'd been abandoned by the Muslims who used to live there; right?
18 A. Yes. But they used them during the day. They would go to their
19 houses, they would take baths, they would go to their gardens to pick
20 vegetables. They also grilled chicken in the courtyards. So during the
21 day they were in their houses but at night they would go to the reception
22 centre where they felt safe and protected from groups of extremists that
23 might appear.
24 Q. Now you testified you would be at the reception centre during the
25 day. Were you ever there at night?
1 A. No, never. Neither I nor my driver. Nor Kuruzovic or his driver
2 or his security detail. Only during the day. Our task or, rather, his
3 task was to drive supplies to our security detail --
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. -- the supplies consisting of cigarettes and those men were
6 guarding the people who were there.
7 Q. Sir, I'm going ask you to focus carefully on my questions. I
8 understand that you were never at Trnopolje at night, what you call a
9 reception centre. How do you know whether Major Kuruzovic was there at
11 A. I am not sure that he was ever there. I'm not sure that he ever
12 went there during the night at least while I was there, for one month and
13 a half. I can't give you any guarantees about the period thereafter.
14 Q. Well, you testified a moment ago that you were never there at
15 night, nor Kuruzovic or his driver or his security detail. And what I'm
16 suggesting to you is you don't know whether Major Kuruzovic was there at
17 night or not because you yourself weren't there at night; right?
18 A. You're not right. Because I added something and that was for as
19 long as I was in Prijedor for a month and a half, I can give you my
20 personal guarantee that he didn't go there during the night -- during
21 that period of time, and then after I left perhaps they went there during
22 the night, but I can't say anything about that.
23 Q. Well, did you live in the same house as him?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. Would you -- would you spend every night his company.
1 A. No, I went to my own apartment where I joined my family during
2 the night.
3 Q. So you have no idea where he was at night, do you?
4 A. No, you are right, I don't know.
5 Q. And you testified a moment ago that Muslims in Trnopolje village
6 used their houses during the day. In fact, Muslims in Trnopolje village
7 would spend the day in the camp, just like they spent the night there;
9 A. Well, those whose houses were further away. But they were all
10 acquaintances and friends. They therefore used the houses that were
11 closer. That's where they would have baths. They would spend time
12 there. In -- they grilled some ten lamb on Bajram, on their religious
13 holiday. They even invited me. They had better food than the security
14 detail. Every day --
15 Q. Sir --
16 A. -- the International Red Cross and the Prijedor Red Cross branch
17 prepared food for them in large cauldrons.
18 Q. We'll get to the Red Cross in a moment. While we're speaking of
19 these houses, Major Kuruzovic also had a house near Trnopolje camp that
20 he would use; right?
21 A. While I was there, I know that him, his lads, and myself would
22 sit down across the road from the school. There was a house there, and
23 there were some wines. I don't know whether he used that house, whether
24 he went there at night. I don't know.
25 Q. And you say in your statement that you're quite sure that he
1 never raped anyone. You're aware, aren't you, that the same trials that
2 you discussed earlier have concluded that he repeatedly raped a woman
3 over and over, brutally, during the summer of 1992; right?
4 A. To this very day, I never attended any trials, sir. This is the
5 first time I am in a courtroom.
6 Q. Yeah, I understand that, sir. You testified earlier that you
7 were aware of findings about Omarska. What I'm putting to you is you're
8 also aware of this finding, that Major Kuruzovic had repeatedly raped
9 this woman. I'm putting to you, to be very clear, that the findings have
10 been this happened at night and, as you've just testified, you have no
11 idea what he was doing at night. That's the truth; right?
12 A. I can just say one thing. It just so happened -- I don't know
13 whether he attended your trial? I wasn't following. Was he there? Did
14 you see him?
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask to you answer my question.
16 A. Well, I don't know what to answer. Knowing this charming
17 gentleman, why would he have to do something like that? I just know when
18 he was there during the day, masses of his students walked up to him and
19 he did his very best to please them, and I don't think that such a
20 charming gentleman would do that. And to do that, I mean, the hygienic
21 conditions were not good either. He was a great gentleman, a teacher.
22 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn now for a moment to the Cirkin Polje
23 logistics base. You testified early that that base supplied the VRS.
24 Now, the Chamber has received evidence, P7129, about a meeting of the
25 Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality and the garrison command on the
1 10th of June that Major Kuruzovic, and your colleague, Mirko Mudrinic,
2 among others, attended and at which "all instructions given by the
3 garrison command and the Crisis Staff in relation to the transformation
4 of the Territorial Defence into the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH
5 were accepted." Were you aware of that meeting?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, P7129, is that under seal, and does that
7 in any way needs to be addressed?
8 MR. TRALDI: It is for a different reason. It was used in -- it
9 was used in open session placed, placed under seal because of a
10 particular very specific piece of information that's not included in what
11 mentioned just now.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, under those circumstances, please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Sir, you recall the meeting on the 10th of June that I described
15 a moment ago. Were you aware of that meeting?
16 A. No, I don't remember.
17 Q. But you know the garrison command refers to the command of the
18 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS; right?
19 A. Well, I don't know. I was an ordinary soldier. Nobody invited
20 me to such meetings. I don't know what this is about. Maybe you could
21 explain something to me and then I would know what's going on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No. Witness, you just have to answer the questions
23 to the best of your knowledge. That's everything you should do. You
24 don't have to bother about background or whatever.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Now, sir --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Beric.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know of any
6 such meeting, and I don't remember that, and it was probably the higher
7 command that had a meeting. I have nothing to do with any of that, and I
8 cannot answer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you cannot answer a question, listen to the
10 question and then tell us, I don't know. Carefully listen to the
11 question. Mr. Traldi will now resume.
12 Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Now, you testified earlier that Trnopolje was secured by the VRS.
15 That was the 43rd Brigade; right?
16 A. While I was there, it was the logistics base of the TO, and then
17 later it was probably attached to the 43rd Motorised Brigade. At that
18 moment, I was sent off to the front. They chased me away. Probably
19 somebody didn't like the fact that I was helping Muslims a lot there at
20 the reception centre. I brought them food and cigarettes, socialised
21 with them, because they were all my acquaintances, and probably somebody
22 was bothered by the fact that I was that way.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: In paragraph 20 of the statement of this gentleman,
25 it was described who guarded, and it says that it was -- that it was
1 reserve component of the army and they belonged to TO, Territorial
2 Defence, organised by Crisis Staff --
3 MR. TRALDI: And at --
4 MR. LUKIC: -- municipality of Prijedor.
5 MR. TRALDI: And at temporary transcript page 23, line 1, today,
6 it was the testimony that I referred to, the witness said:
7 "Yes, the VRS, because the VRS provided security for
9 And then his sentence continued.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you intervene on a matter of
11 substance, you should, first of all, ensure that the witness cannot hear
13 Therefore, apart from that you can deal with that in
14 re-examination. But the mere fact that the witness has told something in
15 the statement as recorded, as we all know by now doesn't mean that
16 there's no need to put further questions on the matter to the witness.
17 Therefore, Mr. Traldi may now proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 19152. And the Registrar
19 received two sets of documents for this witness. This is part of the
20 additional documents provided over the weekend.
21 Q. Now, sir, this is a report from Prijedor SJB Chief Simo Drljaca
22 to CSB Banja Luka. Can you just say "yes" when you are able to see it on
23 the screen there?
24 A. Security station, Prijedor, CSB Banja Luka, chief dispatch, your
25 dispatch number such and such --
1 Q. Sir, I am going to interrupt you. I'm not requesting that you
2 read the whole document.
3 If I could direct your attention to the third paragraph, we see
4 Chief Drljaca refer to what he describes as an open reception centre in
5 Trnopolje, and looking at the final paragraph, he writes:
6 "This centre is secured by the Army of the Serbian Republic of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina," and he says: "No investigation activities are
8 carried out in it."
9 Now that's consistent with your testimony earlier today, though
10 not with your statement, that it was the VRS that secured Trnopolje;
12 A. That's a mistake on his part. That's a mistake on his part. Can
13 I just see what the date is?
14 Q. You can see it in the top left: The 9th of August, 1992.
15 A. Until then it was the Territorial Defence because by that date I
16 was not in Trnopolje in the logistics base. I was already at the front
17 line. Now whether it became the VRS then -- but until then, I know for
18 sure that it was the Territorial Defence and things changed every day.
19 One platoon from each local commune, usually it was elderly people -- it
20 was a mix of people but usually elderly people from the Territorial
22 Now after this date it is possible --
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you there. I'd tender the document
24 and then I will have a follow-up question about your answer.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The number, please, Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 19152 receives number P7197.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the 65 ter number,
5 Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 19152, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The record is complete now.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Now, in fact, security at Trnopolje was provided by the TO for
11 only a few days and then it was taken over by the VRS; right?
12 A. Not a few days. Roughly a month and a half.
13 Q. Well, let's see 65 ter 32239, page 60. This will be a portion of
14 Mr. Kuruzovic's testimony in the Stakic case. And I'm looking at the
15 bottom of the page at line 20. And he's asked by Mr. Stakic's counsel:
16 "Is it correct that only for the first few day, the security was
17 provided by people from the Territorial Defence?
18 He answers:
19 "Yes, that is correct."
20 Mr. Stakic's counsel asks him:
21 "After a few days, the security was provided by the 43rd
23 And he responds:
24 "Yes, I don't know when this happened, whether it was after two
25 or three days, but very quickly after that, there were already a number
1 of people. The security had to be stepped up."
2 And he explains why.
3 Now, that, what you're superior officer, Major Kuruzovic,
4 testified, that's the truth, that beginning just a few days after it
5 opened, security at Trnopolje was provided by the VRS; right?
6 A. Am I supposed to answer?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Possibly. But, still, I saw the same people who were changing
9 there every day. The same people, same uniforms. Now whether they were
10 renamed into something different, that I don't know. I just know that
11 while I was there, it was always the same people and they took turns.
12 These platoons that used to belong to the TO. Now if somebody included
13 them in the VRS, that I don't know.
14 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32006.
15 Q. As it comes up, we saw in that last answer that Major Kuruzovic
16 said security had to be stepped up a few days after the camp opened.
17 Were you working at Trnopolje at the end of May 1992 or visiting
18 Trnopolje at the end of May 1992?
19 A. I think I came in May. I think I was still coming in May. I
20 still hadn't been chased away to the front line.
21 Q. Now, this is a Croatian intercept from a few days after the camp
22 opened; 31 May 1992. We read that there is a collection centre for
23 non-Serbs at the stadium in Trnopolje village. And the Croatians write
25 "The enemy is concerned about a breakout from the camp or escape,
1 so an order has been issued to strengthen security, if necessary, to
2 three times what it was."
3 Now that's just about exactly the time that Major Kuruzovic was
4 saying secured needed to be stepped up; right?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Sir, could you repeat your last answer, please.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unnecessary microphones pleased be
10 switched off.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly. I don't know. I just
12 know that there were no escapes. Nobody escaped. Nobody was running
13 away from the reception centre.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. And you would only be concerned about escapes or the possibility
16 of a breakout if the people there were detained; right?
17 A. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Maybe somebody would escape
18 to join their forces, their army. In other places there were still a
19 Muslim army.
20 Q. What I'm putting to you is you only escape from detention. If
21 you're free to go, you just walk away. You're using the word "escape"
22 because these people were prisoners; right?
23 A. No. Because during the day, they could go wherever they wanted
24 to and at night-time, when there was a curfew, nobody was allowed to move
25 about, Serbs included. When there's a curfew, you know that in any war,
1 there's a curfew. During the day, as a matter of fact, I and my driver
2 drove a colleague of his to Prijedor to see his girlfriend, to take a
3 shower, because it was safer for him to spend the night at the reception
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32006.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 MR. LUKIC: We object to these type of documents, as always.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any specifics for this one or just in more
10 general terms that you oppose the intercepts?
11 MR. LUKIC: We always -- there is no, as I remember, audio
12 recording, and it's not -- there's no source on this document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it it's from a series, Mr. Traldi, or
14 could you say a little bit more about it?
15 MR. TRALDI: That's correct. It's from a lengthy series.
16 MR. LUKIC: And it's in indirect speech. There is no concrete
17 words. Somebody told us a story about something he thinks he saw --
19 MR. TRALDI: We're not seeking to attribute speech to any
20 particular individual. So while that might go to weight, I don't see how
21 it would relate to the admissibility of the intercept.
22 MR. LUKIC: If it's an intercept and does not -- is not
23 attributed to anybody, I don't know how that could be intercept at all.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes even not knowing who the
25 interlocutors are, you can intercept a conversation. You can overhear a
1 conversation sometimes without knowing exactly who is speaking,
2 Mr. Lukic. That's not new to you, is it.
3 MR. LUKIC: But in this intercept it does not say that they did
4 not know who or that they had any kind of problems identifying.
5 MR. TRALDI: I think Mr. Lukic will be familiar with this
6 collection containing a number of summaries, not all of which refer to
7 the speakers explicitly by name.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the document will be marked for
11 identification. The Chamber wants to take a bit more time to find
12 exactly which series it comes from, et cetera, and where it -- what
13 decisions we took for intercepts of the same series.
14 MR. TRALDI: I can provide additional information. I would have
15 to do it in private session, so I'd suggest we do it at the break,
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take that you have done with the document so
18 we can do that at a later stage --
19 MR. TRALDI: I have.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic.
21 Madam Registrar, the number under which this document will be
22 MFI'd is?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number is P7198.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI: Now, can we please have 65 ter 31654.
2 Q. Now, this is a report on the work of the Prijedor municipal
3 organisation of the Red Cross from the 5th of May to the 30th of
4 September, 1992. If we turn to page 9 in the English, 8 in the B/C/S, we
5 see a number of points below comment -- or below conclusion and comment.
6 The last of them is that:
7 "23.000 people have been housed through the reception centre at
8 Trnopolje, of whom we and the International Red Cross have dispatched
9 1.561 to the Karlovac reception centre. On 29 September 1992, a convoy
10 was escorted to Karlovac in the presence of European observers."
11 Now, this reflects what you've testified about already today,
12 that there were many, many thousands of people who went through Trnopolje
13 in the summer of 1992 and many of them were sent to third countries on
14 convoys; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the people at Trnopolje, they were Muslims and Croats; right?
17 A. Well, I don't remember. Perhaps there were a few Croats.
18 Q. And the rest, Muslims?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they were civilians; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Including women, children, and elderly people?
23 A. Including people who were civilians, conditionally speaking.
24 Q. The people there that were civilians that were Muslims and a few
25 Croats, they included women, didn't they?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They included children, didn't they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And they included elderly people; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 31654.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31654 receives number P7199.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TRALDI: Now can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 07021b.
11 Q. Now, this is a report on the CSCE mission to inspect places of
12 detention in Bosnia-Herzegovina. If we turn to page 4 in both languages,
13 we see a memorandum on Trnopolje.
14 Looking at the second paragraph, we see that at the time this was
15 drafted, "the number of inmates at the centre, of whom the great
16 majority, if not all, are of the Muslim faith, is currently thought to be
17 in the neighbourhood of 2.000."
18 It says:
19 "These people are living in terror and the CSCE mission believe
20 they have substantial reasons for their fears."
21 Now they were living in terror because of the conditions in
22 Trnopolje camp; right?
23 A. Are you asking me?
24 Q. I am.
25 A. Well, my family lived in fear at home too. And I'm angry about
1 what is written here, "camp." Please, it was a reception centre, not a
2 camp. I know that in English everything is "kamp," but it is a reception
3 centre, not a camp, and I don't allow that. I won't allow it to be
4 written, "camp."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please refrain from telling what
6 other people should do, and would you please just answer the questions.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Sir, I'm going to repeat my question. The people were living in
9 terror because of the conditions in Trnopolje; right?
10 A. My family at home lived in fear too because of the civil war.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do I understand that you accept that people
12 were living in fear in Trnopolje?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably. There was a war
14 going on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And do you accept that it was due to the conditions
16 in Trnopolje? Apart from there being a war.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sanitary conditions were
18 difficult, but they had better food than the people who were guarding
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 07021b.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 07021b receives number P7200.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Continuing with the topic of international observation for a
2 moment, in paragraph 22 of your statement, you say the
3 International Red Cross was present at Trnopolje from day one. In fact,
4 it was the Bosnian Serb Red Cross that was present early in Trnopolje's
5 existence; right?
6 A. Yes, a lady from the International Red Cross came and she was
7 there from day two or three, I'm not sure.
8 Q. Sir --
9 A. And they provided food every day for those who were there. It
10 was cooked every day and brought in huge cauldrons.
11 Q. -- what I'm putting to you is that it was not the Bosnian Serb --
12 or the International Red Cross. It was not the International Red Cross
13 that was present early in Trnopolje's existence. It was the Bosnian Serb
14 Red Cross; right?
15 A. I think you could have checked that with the Red Cross. There
16 was a lady from the International Red Cross.
17 Q. Well, I asked because the Trial Chamber's received, for instance,
18 P3965, a document from the International Red Cross that reflects that
19 they were first able to enter Trnopolje around the 10th of August, 1992,
20 after you'd left. So I'd put to you that it was, in fact, the Bosnian
21 Serb Red Cross, not the International Red Cross, and you are mistaken.
22 A. I claim that that lady was from the International Red Cross. She
23 compiled a list of those who wanted to leave. None of us from the
24 logistics base ever compiled any lists. It was her in co-operation with
25 the Prijedor Red Cross.
1 On a daily basis, she compiled lists of those who wanted to go to
2 third countries, and they did leave in cars, lorries, buses. I don't
3 know who it -- who else it was who compiled lists of those who wanted to
4 leave, and those lists were forwarded a couple of days after they were
6 Q. Those people who left, they left on convoys, and the Prijedor
7 police and the VRS assisted in organising and securing those convoys;
9 A. Yes, the reserve police. At first I know that they were headed
10 for Novska, in Croatia. Most of them were, that is.
11 Q. Now I'm going focus on the conditions at Trnopolje for a moment.
12 You're aware that many prisoners slept outside; right?
13 A. How could they be prisoners if they slept outside? It is correct
14 that they did not sleep inside because there was not enough room. They
15 slept in their vehicles, tractors, lorries, those that they had arrived
17 Q. But not in their homes because those had, in many cases, been
18 destroyed by Bosnian Serb forces; right?
19 A. You are partly right. They did not sleep in their homes because
20 they were safer in the reception centre. Their houses were not destroyed
21 then. It happened only later or after the war. Their houses were not
22 destroyed because the Serbs who had been expelled from Bosanska Kladusa
23 arrived and settled in them.
24 Q. Well, for instance, in Kozarac, the Chamber has received evidence
25 from a number of Defence witnesses as well as Prosecution witnesses about
1 the destruction of homes there. You're aware of that, aren't you?
2 A. Yes. A large number was destroyed. Not all. A lot of them.
3 Q. Now, you claim in your statement:
4 "In the period while I was in Trnopolje, no one even suffered as
5 much as ear pulling."
6 Now, the Chamber has received evidence that several Muslims in
7 Trnopolje were taken out of Trnopolje were murdered. Is it your evidence
8 you weren't aware of that?
9 A. I don't know that they were murdered. I know that from time to
10 time the reserve police came with an order to investigate some of the
11 Muslims in Trnopolje and took statements from them. They had orders to
12 take some Muslims and take them to Omarska. I don't know whether they
13 took them there or somewhere else. I don't know that.
14 Q. Well, Slavko Puhalic testified recently. He described himself as
15 the link between Major Kuruzovic and the other men. He was essentially
16 Kuruzovic's deputy; right?
17 A. I don't know what he was, whether he was his deputy. I know that
18 he was the one who spent most time in Trnopolje so he knows much more
19 than I do.
20 Q. Well, he testified that he was aware Muslims had been taken out
21 and killed. Is it your evidence that neither Major Kuruzovic nor any of
22 your other co-workers at the logistics base had informed you that Muslims
23 had been taken out of Trnopolje and killed?
24 A. Nobody ever told me that. And what I've just told you was that
25 at the moment I was there, the police did arrive in a blue van. They had
1 a written order to take some people to Omarska. I don't know whether
2 they indeed took them to Omarska or somewhere else. I don't know.
3 Q. And none of the prisoners you spoke with ever told you that
4 people had been taken out and murdered. Is that your evidence?
5 A. No. My Muslim acquaintances with whom I spoke on a daily basis
6 did tell me that people were taken away, but they never told me that
7 anybody was murdered. How could they have known? People were taken --
8 or they left and then their friends and acquaintances would drive them
9 all the way to the Croatian border.
10 Q. So you know that people were being taken away from Trnopolje that
11 never came back; right?
12 A. I really don't know whether anybody returned or not. There were
13 thousands upon thousands of people there. How should I know if some of
14 them returned?
15 Q. The Chamber has received evidence that there were numbers of
16 rapes not just by Major Kuruzovic but large numbers of rapes in Trnopolje
17 camp, and again Slavko Puhalic testified that he was aware of some of
18 them. Is it your evidence you never heard from Major Kuruzovic or anyone
19 else that people were being raped in Trnopolje?
20 A. While I there, I did not hear any such thing. I didn't hear
21 that. Possibly during the night when we were not there. Slavko perhaps
22 knows because he was there more often and stayed longer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Witness, could I ask you one question.
24 You said you know that the police was taken persons and you don't know
25 whether they took them to Omarska or somewhere else. You don't know. Do
1 you know whether they were returned?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- if the police would have taken someone, you
6 wouldn't know whether they were returned by the civilian police who had
7 led them away.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I put to you your statement in paragraph 33,
10 which reads:
11 "There were cases when the civilian police took some individuals
12 for interrogation to Omarska, but all of them returned to the Trnopolje
13 reception centre after interrogation."
14 This squarely contradicts what you said a minute ago, that you do
15 not know whether they were returned. Do you have any explanation for
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I firmly answer, and
18 I speak the truth: I never stated that they were brought back, that they
19 returned. I never stated that. I claim categorically, I know it
20 personally, I was present when the police brought an order to Kuruzovic
21 and when they took those people away. I never said it in any statement.
22 I never stated that they returned.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think I read your own statement to which you
24 attested today that it was, after you had reviewed it, it was the
25 truth --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken. Let me see
2 if I can find this and read it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 33, could it be shown to the witness.
4 But I'm not engaging in a debate on the matter, Witness. I just
5 wanted to draw your attention to the fact that your statement says
6 something which is squarely contradicting to your testimony today.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I ever stated
8 that they were brought back. It may have been a -- a slip of the tongue
9 or a misprint. I -- I continue to claim that they were taken away.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, are you aware that today you told us
11 that you had reviewed the statement and that you attested that what you
12 said was reflected well and that you attested that you gave your
13 statement in accordance with the truth and that is what you told us today
14 before we admitted into evidence that statement.
15 When you say it may have been a slip of the tongue, do you mean
16 to say that it's not all the truth, what is in your statement?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just flipped
18 through my statement, and while I was doing that, I -- maybe I didn't not
19 notice that. I claim that they were taken away, but I did not state that
20 they were brought back. Some may have been brought back. I don't know
21 whether all were. I don't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you say that you have not carefully read and
23 reviewed your statement before you gave you're attestation today, that it
24 was all in accordance with the truth and well recorded?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I was saying,
1 because - because - I thought that we would slowly go through the
2 paragraphs in my statement one by one.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that expectation was not accurate. I
4 don't know on what it is based, but Mr. Traldi will now continue his
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that when -- is it your evidence now
8 that when Mr. Lukic asked you at temporary transcript page 9, beginning
9 at line 21:
10 "When you -- or, rather, did you have an opportunity to read your
11 statement and did you make sure that everything was recorded correctly?
12 You answered:
13 "Yes, I just had one little objection," which you later explained
14 was about ensuring the translation was correct.
15 Is it your evidence now that your answer to that question was
16 not, in fact, the truth, that you did not read your statement and make
17 sure everything was recorded correctly in advance of your testimony?
18 A. At the beginning of the session, at the -- counsel said that
19 there was an objection. I thought that that had been corrected, and it
20 seems that it wasn't.
21 Q. You were asked what the objection was. You told this Court that
22 you'd asked that it be made certain that the interpretation was correct
23 and then swore to your statement. You swore to a statement that you did
24 not know to be true and that you've now today said contains a number of
25 errors, and you swore that you'd reviewed it and made sure it was correct
1 when the truth is you did neither of those things. Right?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've never been at a trial before, and I thought
3 that you would go through the statement paragraph by paragraph, and then
4 I would be asked to say whether something was correct or not. This is my
5 first trial ever, so I thought that what mattered was what you were going
6 ask me, what the Presiding Judge would ask me, what the Defence counsel
7 would ask me. I thought that that was important.
8 Q. For the moment I'd just ask for an answer to the question I just
9 asked you, which is that when you testified under oath that you'd
10 reviewed your statement and made sure what was in it was true, in fact,
11 you had not done either of those things; right?
12 A. Well, it's not that nothing is correct, but what we are looking
13 at now, i.e., that they were brought back, I don't know about that. I'm
14 sure, and I still claim, that they were taken away, but I don't think
15 that I ever said that they were brought back. I don't remember that.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see we are at or even slightly past
17 the time for the break. I'd appreciate having it to reorganise. I
18 imagine I'll be very brief after it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll take the break now for 20 minutes,
20 and we'll resume at 25 minutes past midday.
21 [The witness stands down via videolink]
22 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
24 [The witness takes the stand via videolink]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI: Actually, Mr. President, after reviewing over the
2 break, I have no further questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
4 Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will have several questions for
6 this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, you were asked earlier today about
11 the logistics base. I would like to call up 07157.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a P number?
13 MR. LUKIC: No, it's not P number, it's 65 ter number.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Beric, this is a report on the work of the logistics base.
17 The date is 16 September 1992.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the following page,
19 please, in both versions.
20 Q. At the bottom of the page, you can see --
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we don't have that
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, this is for re-direct. We did not send it.
25 But I can ask the question.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, do you know who Mirko Mudrinic was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was his position at the logistics base; do you know?
4 A. He was an organiser in the logistics base. He did have a rank,
5 but I can't remember what it was. I believe that he was Kuruzovic's
6 assistant more than anything else.
7 Q. You're saying that he was an organiser. Did you co-operate with
8 him at the logistics base?
9 A. As needed. If I needed some medical supplies or foodstuffs at
10 the logistics base, he was the one who was involved in all that more than
11 anybody else.
12 Q. In today's transcript, it was recorded when you testified about
13 your friend Alija who had arrived from Omarska. It was recorded that he
14 was stark naked. Did you say that he was naked or stark naked?
15 A. He was almost naked. The only thing he had on him were very
16 dirty underpants.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you talk to Kuruzovic and his escorts while you
18 were sitting in the shade of wine, as you put it? Did you talk to him?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. In those conversations, did anybody mention that Kuruzovic
21 visited Trnopolje during the night?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. At that time, did any of the people you spoke to, Muslims or
24 Serbs, complain about Kuruzovic? Did anybody say that Kuruzovic had ever
25 raped anybody?
1 A. No, never.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7199. I don't
3 know if the representative of the Registry can call up that number. The
4 former 65 ter number was 31654.
5 This is a report on the work of the municipal Red Cross branch in
6 Prijedor from 5 May to 30 September 1992. We need page 9 in English and
7 page 8 in B/C/S.
8 Q. Talking about this document, you were asked whether there were
9 any women and children there, whether there were elderly people as well.
10 Now those children, those women and those elderly, were they
11 brought in, as far as you know, or did they come of their own will? Did
12 they actually ask to be accommodated there? How did these people arrive
13 in Trnopolje?
14 A. They came on their own using all sorts of --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The last part of your question is is how the
16 question should have been formulated. The previous part is leading.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: Separately, I'm not entirely sure that the question
19 about how they arrived arises out of my cross.
20 MR. LUKIC: Still, we think it's very important to establish --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
22 MR. LUKIC: -- it was established --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But --
24 MR. LUKIC: -- that there were elderly.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But not by providing an answer before you ask.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, matters may be important, but the issue
2 raised by Mr. Traldi, whether it arises from cross-examination, it does
3 not. If you say were there any red-haired people there, and to say,
4 Well, then we have to know everything about red-haired people. That, of
5 course, is not touched upon how they arrived by Mr. Traldi, is there?
6 MR. LUKIC: Okay. But if it's not in dispute, or they claim that
7 they that were forced, if they claim they were incarcerated --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- they had to be brought there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we are not dealing with one witness only.
11 I think that the Prosecution's case in that respect is very clear. If
12 you only listen to the questions, you know that it is in dispute perhaps,
13 but the arrival, as such, was not addressed in cross-examination.
14 At the same time, it may take more time if you have one or two
15 questions on this, I would say, it's more practical to do that, but from
16 a procedural, legal point of view, you are not entitled to what I allow
17 you, nevertheless, to do at this moment.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then also please be precise in terms of avoiding
20 sweeping statements, because that is of some concern to the Chamber in
21 relation to this witness.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, do you know anything specific or do
24 you know anybody specific and how they arrived in Trnopolje reception
1 A. I know a lot about that. Many came on foot from Prijedor. And
2 they continued taking food to their relatives in Prijedor and they
3 returned. And I also know that they came in various vehicles. They used
4 taxis. They paid the fare. There were taxis during the war as well.
5 And they arrived because they had heard that their departure to a third
6 country would happen fast. There was a neighbour of mine and her two
7 daughters, Ramiza and her daughters Anita and Rita, who paid the taxi
8 fare and arrived at the reception centre. When I appeared there around
9 9.00 or 10.00 and when I saw them, I was taken by surprise. She toured
10 the reception centre and realised that the conditions would be much
11 better there for her children.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One simple question for you, Witness. Did it
13 ever happen that people arrived being accompanied by either police or
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Prijedor, as far as I know,
16 people came of their own will, on foot or by taxi, or by their own
17 vehicle. I remember just one case when Muslims were collected in
18 Sanski Most and brought over by lorries, and those people left on the
19 same day by train. They were escorted either by the police or the
20 military. I don't know who. I can't remember. But in any case, a
21 convoy was organised for them on the same day and they left by train.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Were you ever present when people arrived from
25 Omarska and Keraterm escorted by the police; do you remember if any such
1 thing happened while you were there?
2 A. I did not understand your question.
3 Q. While you were at Trnopolje, was anybody brought from Omarska or
4 Keraterm escorted by the police?
5 A. Those who had been interrogated and were let go came by buses. I
6 suppose that they had escorts. I didn't see them. They had been
7 interrogated and released and they arrived, and from Trnopolje they were
8 sent to third countries.
9 Q. Can I call up P7200.
10 A. Can I finish what I started telling about my neighbour?
11 Q. Is that in your statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It is in your statement, so there's no need to repeat anything
14 from your statement.
15 A. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need P7200. I don't know if the
17 representative of the Registry can find this document. It used to be
18 07021b, 65 ter. This is a report issued by the CSCE mission about
19 detention centres in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We need to look at page 4
20 in both versions.
21 Q. Mr. Beric, in the second paragraph, line 2, you will see where it
22 says -- in English, it is line 3. It says:
23 "These people are living in terror and the CSCE mission believe
24 they have substantial reasons for their fear."
25 You told us that your family lived in fear in Prijedor as well.
1 My question to you is this: Your conduct and the conduct of the armed
2 Serbs who were there contributed to the fear of those people. Why were
3 they afraid? What was the cause of their fear?
4 A. You know what the reason was? There was a civil war going on and
5 it's only natural that everybody should feel afraid. There is fear in
6 everyone. There is poverty, hunger, there is no electricity. Any normal
7 person would try to avoid that. All of us were hungry, without
8 electricity, and we were wondering what would happen.
9 Q. Thank you. Just one more question in relation to today's
10 paragraph -- no, today's transcript, page 46, line 1.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
12 Q. My colleague Mr. Traldi asked you about the people who were
14 "... they were leaving on convoys, and the Prijedor police and
15 the VRS assisted them in organising and securing these convoys; right?"
16 And in your answer you said:
17 "Yes, the reserve police."
18 Do you have any knowledge about the VRS, whether the VRS ever
19 escorted these convoys?
20 A. I don't know about that because very soon I was sent to the front
21 line. I know that up until then, it was the police that was securing
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Beric. That's all we had for you.
24 A. You're welcome.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Beric, I have -- before I give an opportunity to
2 the Prosecution to put any further questions to you. In your statement
3 you are telling that you claim that Sejmenovic is not telling the truth
4 about his stay at Trnopolje, as you said, because you know him
5 personally. How do you know what Sejmenovic told this Court about
7 A. I heard about that. I heard about that from other people. I
8 didn't personally watch his testimony in court, but that's something that
9 I heard from other people. However, I can tell you about how come we
10 know each other and how everything happened and --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not interested in that. I'm primarily
12 interested in how you knew what he had told the Court. So you haven't
13 watched any testimony given by him? You have not read any of his
15 A. Yes, you're right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You -- you did not read those statements. Did
17 you speak to him personally about his testimony in this Court?
18 A. I didn't talk to him about the testimony. We didn't see each
19 other. We're good acquaintances, friends. Sivac was his best friend and
20 he often came to see him.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So whether what he told this Court is the truth or
22 not, you've got no idea because you don't know what he told this Court?
23 A. Well, yes, I'd like to know what it was that he said.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine, but you commented on it already
25 without knowing what it was. I have no further questions in relation to
2 Are you -- Nusret Sivac, do you know whether and, if so, what
3 evidence he gave to this Court?
4 A. I don't know. I didn't watch it directly. I just know what he
5 wrote in the book. And he turned it into a business.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
7 Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you as well.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Beric, earlier today, you said - and this is
9 on page 16, line 13 and 14 - you talked about this skinny man which
10 was -- who was depicted in this photograph we talked about. And you
11 said: "I must say, that I'm sorry to have heard that he died recently."
12 When did you hear that?
13 A. A few days ago. A few days ago.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what did you hear precisely? When did he
16 A. Well, allegedly, it was recent. The last couple of months or
17 something. I have no idea. I heard that from the neighbours out there.
18 Now whether it's true, I cannot say.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you mean by "the neighbours out there"?
20 A. Well, people who live in the nearby villages.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you hear that in the street or by -- in a
22 cafe or did anybody specifically tell you about that?
23 A. In the street. You know what it's like. People live together
24 again. What happened, happened. People co-operate. They work together,
25 Muslims and Serbs, and every day there are --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That's all.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions?
3 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Beric, this concludes your evidence in this
5 Court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the place of the --
6 the location of the videolink. I also thank you for having answered
7 questions that were put to you by the parties and put to you by the
8 Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused.
11 Madam Registrar, at the other side of the videolink, is there
12 any -- perhaps we first allow the witness to leave the videolink room.
13 [Witness withdrew via videolink]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that the next
15 witness would not be available. Is that true?
16 MR. LUKIC: Next witness from yesterday would be available.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the next witness for the videolink.
18 MR. LUKIC: Next witness for the videolink, we could not
19 anticipate that we would finish this early so we called only those two
20 for today for videolink.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that means that he is expected to start
22 his testimony tomorrow.
23 MR. LUKIC: Tomorrow morning, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar at the other side of the
25 videolink, we do understand that there's no witness available at this
1 moment to continue hearing evidence through this videolink but that we
2 would resume tomorrow morning. Is that the same information that you
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] That's correct, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, at this moment, we can close the --
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours next videolink
7 witness -- the next one is ready for tomorrow morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow
9 morning at 9.30 not in this -- yes, for you in that same courtroom
10 through videolink.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And we can close the videolink for the time being.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we can continue the cross-examination of
15 the last witness.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, just before it gets lost if we could
17 handle the matter regarding MFI P7198.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that we move into private session for
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 32895 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Mr. Lukic, an update on, I think, five expert reports. Two
16 ballistics, one historical, one forensic pathologist, and one radio
18 MR. LUKIC: We hope that ballistics experts could be finally
19 filed by the end of the next week. And we are awaiting the translations
20 for historical expert and pathologist. Hopefully tomorrow it could be --
21 we hope that tomorrow that this pathologist expertise could translated.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Have you provided the original versions already to
23 the Prosecution?
24 MR. LUKIC: Hmm?
25 Maybe Ms. Stewart knows, because it's up to our case manager.
1 JUDGE ORIE: When did you send them for translation?
2 MR. LUKIC: That I don't know. Tomorrow one should be done
3 probably a couple of weeks ago.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't it that you would always provide the
5 original versions to the other party already since you are so much in
7 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI: I'd been standing up. None of us had recalled
10 seeing them, and I was just going ask to assist us in checking our
11 records for the names of the witnesses that Mr. Lukic had in mind.
12 MR. LUKIC: And if not, we'll send it today, I promise that. And
13 on the 18th of March, the translation for historian expert should be
14 finalised [Overlapping speakers]...
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the names of your experts? Or if you
16 would send an e-mail to the Prosecution.
17 MR. LUKIC: Pathologist is Dunjic. I know that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I'm a bit concerned if I hear that
19 possibly you have not given the original versions, and I think that it
20 was what was as a provisional remedy agreed upon, that at least if you
21 have any report ready awaiting translation that you already send the
22 original to the Prosecution to the -- and if that doesn't happen, then --
23 it doesn't take that much time, I would think. It requires some
24 attention to what is done.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I didn't hear any update on the radio
2 communications expert. We had asked the Defence if they objected to us a
3 short interview of such an expert to get an idea of what he may be
4 testifying about, and we await your reply on that, and especially that we
5 haven't seen any report or any word of any report.
6 JUDGE ORIE: When did you ask to have an opportunity to interview
7 the expert?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it was a week or two ago, something like
10 MR. IVETIC: Friday.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Friday two weeks ago or last Friday?
12 MR. IVETIC: My recollection is last Friday since I spoke with
13 Mr. McCloskey on the telephone.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objection against ...
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. IVETIC: It hasn't been resolved because we have not received
17 word back from the communications expert, and we also have not received
18 his report, although that the Belgrade office tells me that they expect
19 his report to be done by next week, and then it can be sent for
20 translation. As soon as we get the B/C/S report, we can provide that to
21 the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question also was whether the
23 Prosecution could interview that expert. Apparently that's how I
24 understood your request to the Defence as expressed.
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and I transferred that request to
1 Belgrade to communicate to the radio communications expert. I have not
2 heard back in relation to that, and I don't know that my colleagues have
3 either. I think looking back here, they have not.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it the expert who decides on that or is it the
5 Defence who approves an interview? And is there any property in a
6 witness? That's, of course, the question that arises.
7 Mr. Ivetic, it's not the expert who -- you were asked whether you
8 oppose your expert to be interviewed by the Prosecution.
9 MR. IVETIC: And I relayed that request to my lead counsel,
10 Your Honour. I can't speak with authority on matters that I'm not --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then ask now your lead counsel what his position is.
12 He is sitting next to you, so communication shouldn't be a major problem.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: The instructions I'm getting in the courtroom right
17 now are that as far as we're concerned we don't have a problem with the
18 proposal, but we can't speak on behalf of the witness since we have not
19 heard back since we communicated that request to him.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you're willing to give the details for
21 communication to the Prosecution so that they can approach him?
22 MR. IVETIC: They should already have that, but I can check on
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that will be resolved.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then there's one other matter remaining; that
2 is, we were informed that the parties had agreed on how to proceed this
3 week. I don't know whether that is covered by the information that
4 Mr. Subotic would resume his testimony today and that after the
5 videolink, then if it has not been finished, we would continue with, if I
6 could say, The Hague witnesses. Is that your agreement?
7 MR. IVETIC: That is, Your Honours, and that is the preliminary
8 matter that we were ready to raise before which delayed to have the
9 videolink start.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Then I suggest that we ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: That we take a break now, that we will resume at 25
13 minutes past 1.00, and that we'll then further hear the testimony of
14 Mr. Subotic.
15 We take a break.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll now continue with hearing the evidence of
19 Mr. Subotic. Could he be escorted in the courtroom.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: If my recollection serves me well, we're about to
22 start the cross-examination. That's where we are.
23 Ms. Hasan.
24 MS. HASAN: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to explain to you why you are with us
5 in court only today again for a relatively short period of time. That is
6 because we also hear evidence from witnesses who are far away, we hear
7 them through a videolink, and for the technical requirements we
8 unfortunately have to give priority to that, which then may not be very
9 pleasant for you. I hope you have some understanding for that.
10 Mr. Subotic, I'd first like to remind you that you're still bound
11 by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your
12 testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
13 the truth. And I then inform you that you'll now be cross-examined by
14 Ms. Hasan. You'll find Ms. Hasan to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel
15 for the Prosecution.
16 Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
17 WITNESS: BOJAN SUBOTIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Your commander, Major Zoran Malinic, what was he commonly known
23 as? What was his nickname?
24 A. I think it was Zoran Zoka. That's the usual way in which Zorans
25 are addressed. We addressed him by rank, we, the soldiers. And then
1 there were friends of his who would come to see him. Zoki, Zole, Zoka.
2 So that's the usual nicknames for that particular name.
3 Q. Now you recall testifying yesterday about Muslims who were
4 killing other Muslims that wanted to surrender. And what I'd like to ask
5 you is did you report that information that you received to your
6 commander, Malinic?
7 A. Through some report everyday; that is to say, every time I went
8 out on patrol and when I'd come back, every time a report is filed, an
9 Official Note, and at the same time I inform the commander. And this was
10 very fast, everything that happened at the stadium. I received this
11 information and the people who had been taken prisoner said that that had
12 happened. I could not confirm that to him because I didn't see that
13 myself, what it was that had happened. What happened to these people.
14 Q. Besides filing official reports, or notes as you mention, you
15 kept Zoran Malinic informed of what was transpiring?
16 A. Well, that day we saw each other about two or three time, and it
17 had to do with radio communication.
18 Q. And you made -- you made Zoran Malinic aware that there were
19 wounded amongst the prisoners who surrendered, didn't you?
20 A. I think I said that to Petrovic because I asked him for a
21 vehicle. Malinic hadn't appeared by then. Well, maybe he did, but I
22 can't say for sure.
23 Q. Let's take a look at P1415. What you're about to see is an
24 intercepted communication. It's from the 13th of July at 10.09 hours in
25 the morning. And I'm not going to work through the entire communication,
1 but it begins between Beara and Lucic and then continues between a Zoka
2 and Beara.
3 And it's -- we can turn in the English to page 2. And it's our
4 position that Zoka is Zoran Malinic, commander of the military police of
5 the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.
6 And the part of the conversation I want to focus on is the --
7 when Zoka gets on the line.
8 MS. HASAN: And if we could turn to page 5 in the B/C/S, please.
9 And if we can look at -- you see towards the bottom there, you see 500.
10 If we can just turn the page in the English.
11 Q. And just towards the top of the page there in the English, Zoka
12 reports to Beara that there are about 500.
13 MS. HASAN: Could we turn the B/C/S one page, please.
14 Q. And Zoka says, just a little bit further down in the English:
15 "Well, here, it's ... they're killing themselves ... there are
16 also plenty of wounded ..."
17 And I believe we have to turn to page 7 in the B/C/S. And Beara
19 "You mean they're doing it amongst themselves?"
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, the conversation continues, but it's not heard very well
23 what Zoka says. And then Zoka says:
24 "... they're killing...."
25 Beara says:
1 "Well, excellent. Just let them continue, fuck it."
2 You see that?
3 A. I see that.
4 Q. And that information that Zoka is passing onto Beara accurately
5 reflects what was taking place at the time and what had you reported to
6 Malinic; is that right?
7 A. Well, I don't see that this is Malinic. Zoka can be whoever. I
8 did report to my commander via radio communication that I had come across
9 this group of people who had unfortunately been killed, whatever else
10 happened, but I did not report to him about anything else. And who this
11 was that was talking to Beara, I really cannot say to you.
12 Q. Well, sir, I'm going to tell you that there's evidence in this
13 days that Malinic who -- testified that he spoke to Beara on the 13th of
14 July at about 10.15 in the morning. And so I'll ask you again: The
15 information that is Zoran Malinic is providing to Beara is, in fact, what
16 you had testified to yesterday, was it not?
17 A. Well, there's a coincidence. I don't know what my commander had
18 to say to the chief of security and vice versa.
19 Q. Okay. Let's move on. By approximately 2.00 p.m. that day, there
20 were more than a thousand people at the football stadium at Nova Kasaba;
21 is that right?
22 A. Yes, something like that. About a thousand or 11- or 1200,
24 Q. And Muslim men continued to surrender after that time; isn't that
1 A. The -- most surrendered in the morning before noon and later they
2 surrendered in groups of five or ten. In smaller numbers. The larger
3 contingent of those who surrendered, some 2- or 300 of them, surrendered
4 during the morning before 1.00 or half past 1.00. I can't remember
5 exactly, but that was approximately the time.
6 Q. And, sir, by the afternoon around 4.00 p.m., 5.00 p.m., you
7 wouldn't dispute that there were approximately 1500 prisoners gathered at
8 that stadium, would you?
9 A. When you say "1500," that's 1.500; right?
10 Q. That's correct.
11 A. No, I don't think that there as many as that. All in all, there
12 were about 1200. It's very hard to say. We counted head up to 3- or 400
13 and then we stopped. There was a list but that list was never completed.
14 In any case, there were not as many as 1500. There were fewer of them.
15 MS. HASAN: Could we take a look at P1280. And this is an
16 under-seal document.
17 Q. What you're about to see, Witness --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the number again?
19 MS. HASAN: P01280.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MS. HASAN:
22 Q. This is an intercept from the 13th of July. And in the B/C/S, we
23 can turn the page to see the communication between X and Y at 1602.
24 And it starts off by saying this is mostly -- X says:
25 "This is mostly it. I called 394. I've got an extension down in
1 Kasaba, my own."
2 Now 394, that was the extension used to reach Malinic; isn't that
4 A. I really can't remember the extension number. It was some 20
5 years ago. I can't say that it wasn't or that it was. It's really
6 impossible for me to remember the extension number. I -- I don't think
7 you should be asking me that in the first place.
8 Q. Well, let's see if I can help you.
9 MS. HASAN: Could we look at 65 ter 05923a, please.
10 Q. So this is the VRS phonebook. It's dated August 1995. And we
11 have an excerpt of it at page 2. And if you look towards the bottom of
12 the page in the B/C/S, and in the English, can you see where it says:
13 "Commander of the Military Police Battalion," just under the heading
14 65th Protection Motorised Regiment. You see a phone number, and below it
15 you see an extension, 394. Do you have any reason to dispute that this
16 is accurate?
17 A. I can see where it says the battalion commander of the military
18 police, but I don't see what commander, what battalion, and I don't see a
19 stamp or a signature to see who was it who approved this document. But I
20 can see all that written.
21 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 05923a into evidence.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would object in so far as the
23 witness is unable to authentic the information contained therein and has
24 no personal knowledge, as he said he does not remember.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if documents are related to matters which
1 are the subject of examination of the witness, we usually do not wait
2 until -- there we have whole bunch of documents on the bar table. Is
3 there any further objection against this to be admitted into evidence;
4 that is, Mr. Ivetic?
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, as to the bar table, the Prosecution has not
6 made a submission. Pursuant to bar table jurisprudence, once we receive
7 such submission we will respond to it in kind, but we have not received
8 provenance information, we have not received --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you know, it's not the first time, Mr. Ivetic,
10 I think it happens very, very often, that in this context that we would
11 decide on admission right away. So if you have any objection against
12 admission of this document at this moment, please.
13 MR. IVETIC: I do. I've made my objection on the record. And
14 unless the Prosecution makes any further submissions -- I cannot object
15 in a vacuum, Your Honours. I believe Your Honours' guidance as to bar
16 table -- I believe Your Honours' guidance as to bar table submissions has
17 been that they should be timed prior to the conclusion of the Prosecution
18 case. If the Prosecution --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, this is now the sixth or the seventh or
20 the eighth time that you just ignore what we have done practically so
21 often in this courtroom that if there's any document which is directly
22 related to what a witness tell us about, that we would considered
23 admission after having heard the parties. So you're again invited to
24 tell us whether under Rule 87, I think it is, whether there's any
25 objection against admission of this document.
1 But perhaps, Ms. Hasan, if you would first tell us where it comes
3 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, this was seized in 2006 from the Kozara
4 barracks in Banja Luka. That's part of the VRS collection -- archives.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it is a printed copy. It looks very much
6 as if it is, but ... this is just print, not typewritten, or don't you
7 know? It looks very much like print.
8 MS. HASAN: I -- I mean, I don't know if this is typewritten or
9 printed. It appears to me to be printed. It was -- we actually have the
10 entire telephone book. We've just excerpted out a page of it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we saw the cover page which very much looked
12 like not typewritten but printed.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have we received any other excerpts of this
14 telephone book previously?
15 MS. HASAN: Well, my recollection is that I used an excerpt of
16 this telephone book with Milenko Todorovic during his examination. I
17 recall that I did offer that into evidence, there was a -- an objection
18 on the basis of the date of the telephone book, and my recollection is -
19 and I can go back and check this - that the parties agreed that this was
20 a telephone book from August 1995 that -- as it's presented on the cover
21 of this document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this information.
23 Mr. Ivetic, again, if there's anything you would like to submit
24 at this moment in relation to admission of this document before the
25 Chamber considers whether or not to admit or even perhaps postpone its
2 MR. IVETIC: I have nothing further to add apart from what I've
3 already said.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document would receive number
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
10 Ms. Hasan, if you could provide us with the -- with the details
11 of the information you gave us from the top of your head, then that would
12 be appreciated. When do you think? Two days would be enough?
13 MS. HASAN: Yes, certainly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you feel any need to make further
15 submissions, you have an opportunity to do so during the next two days as
17 Please continue, Ms. Hasan.
18 MS. HASAN: Could we go back then to P01280. And, again, this
19 should not be broadcast. Page 2 of the B/C/S, please.
20 Q. So the communication between X and Y continues, and X says in the
21 third line:
22 "Where Malinic's unit is. They said that there are 1.500
23 gathered at the statement [sic]."
24 Y says:
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, "stadium."
2 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry. Thank you, Your Honour. "Stadium."
6 "There are 1.500 at the stadium in Kasaba. Fuck it. The duty
7 officer down there said that. We probably won't let anything get by.
8 There are more of them ... that hasn't finished ..."
9 And then there's some interference.
10 MR. IVETIC: If I can note, the B/C/S does not appear to
11 correlate to this page. Oh, now it is. Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it looks to us very much -- it is now.
13 Witness, you can -- what was just read to you, you can read it
14 again at the last portion of what is before you now.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. So they're discussing the number of -- numbers gathered at the
19 stadium where Malinic's unit is. That would be Nova Kasaba; right?
20 That's where you were?
21 A. I was in Nova Kasaba. And the battalion of the military police
22 was there, I was its member. Malinic was indeed the commander of that
23 battalion; however, I'm not familiar with this conversation. I don't
24 know who X was, who Y was. I really can't comment upon this conversation
25 at all.
1 Q. The information that's being relayed between these two
2 individuals at around 4.00 p.m., do you have -- do you have reason to
3 dispute the numbers being reported there?
4 A. What I would dispute here or what my personal opinion about this
5 is, I don't know the situation. However, if we are talking about my
6 battalion, about my unit, then I would dispute this number. I don't
7 think that there were 1500 people. I'm not sure. I was there all the
8 time. I even escorted the prisoners to Bratunac. There were about 1200
9 prisoners. That would be my assessment in lay terms.
10 Q. So let's move on, then, to your escort of these prisoners. And
11 just so that we are very, very clear: General Mladic issued the order to
12 escort the prisoners from Nova Kasaba to the Vuk Karadzic school in
13 Bratunac; that's correct?
14 A. Yes, General Mladic personally issued the order to my commander.
15 I was there when the order was being issued to him, and we complied with
16 the order. This is exactly what we did.
17 Q. It was also General Mladic who told you -- who told you and
18 Malinic that the buses and trucks would arrive at the football field for
19 the transportation of those prisoners. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes. He said that in about an hour some buses were supposed to
21 arrive. Some vehicles, some lorries. He would personally see to that
22 and made sure that it was all organised. I don't know how he did that.
23 In any case, he promised that the transportation means would arrive and
24 that did happen. They, indeed, did arrive.
25 Q. You understood, then, that General Mladic had ordered the
1 organisation of the transportation for this purpose; correct?
2 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Misstates the evidence of the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Ms. Hasan is not stating the evidence of the
4 witness but she's asking a question to the witness as a follow-up to the
5 previous question.
6 Could you please answer the question, Mr. Subotic.
7 The question was whether you understood that General Mladic had
8 ordered the organisation of the transportation for this purpose, whether
9 that is correct.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that buses would
11 arrive. I don't know whether he issued an order to that effect, whether
12 he approached somebody from the civilian authorities. I don't know. In
13 any case, those were civilian buses. I was there when General Mladic
14 promised that those buses and other vehicles should arrive within an hour
15 and should be at the football pitch.
16 I don't know where the information came from, whether he issued
17 that order. He was the commander of the Main Staff, so it -- it was
18 really impossible for me to know what the commander ordered. I was not
19 directly subordinated to him. He was in command of the entire army. I
20 myself was subordinated to the battalion commander who was my direct
22 MS. HASAN: Could we take look at 65 ter 32163.
23 Q. And, Witness, as that comes up, you recall testifying in the
24 Popovic case as a witness for the Defence? And this was on the 1st of
25 September, 2008.
1 A. Of course, yes.
2 Q. And you were called as a witness for the Beara Defence; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You told the truth during your testimony?
6 A. Yes, and again today.
7 MS. HASAN: So could we turn to e-court page 35, please.
8 Q. Mr. Subotic, this is a portion -- a transcript of your testimony
9 in that case, and I will read to you from line 9:
10 "If I understand you well, General Mladic was the one who issued
11 the order for the transport to be organised from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac,
12 wouldn't that be correct?
13 "A. Yes. And when it came to escorting prisoners of war, he was
14 the one who issued the order, and as far as I could understand, he was
15 the one to issue all other orders for the transport to be organised."
16 Do you stand by the testimony you gave in the Popovic case?
17 A. Yes, I stand by -- by it. I repeated just a while ago that the
18 commander of the Main Staff issued all orders. And now as to who he had
19 arranged the transport with, I don't know that. He told us that we
20 should escort the prisoners to Bratunac when buses and lorries arrived.
21 I don't know who he had spoken to and made the arrangements about that.
22 I don't know.
23 Q. And isn't it the case, Mr. Subotic, that Mladic, General Mladic,
24 told you in Bratunac -- told you that in Bratunac everything will be
25 organised? Isn't that the case?
1 A. General Mladic said that to my commander, not me.
2 As a matter of fact, I was there. I was present. He was looking
3 at both of us. But as a rule that order should have been issued to my
4 commander who, in turn, should have issued the order to me. So, yes, can
5 you interpret the whole situation as if the order had been issued to me
6 as well because I was there.
7 Q. I'm going to move onto the events or what transpired at the
8 Nova Kasaba stadium, and you were yesterday asked about a prisoner being
9 shot at the stadium, and the testimony is transcript page 32826. And,
10 well, your commander Malinic was asked the same question in the Tolimir
11 case, and I'm going to read to you his response.
12 MS. HASAN: Could we see P1555, please. And this will be e-court
13 page 71.
14 Q. And we see a question is put to Mr. Malinic about whether he had
15 been made aware of or heard or saw any abuses of prisoners at the
16 Nova Kasaba stadium. And in particular, whether he heard that one of the
17 prisoners was shot and killed there at the stadium.
18 If we turn to page 72, at line 3, Malinic provides an answer, and
19 he says:
20 "And as for killings, the killing of one prisoner, this is
21 something I heard of. And it did happen at the stadium when the prisoner
22 attacked a soldier who was a member of the Military Police Battalion."
23 He goes on to say:
24 "That was the only instance when someone lost his life, but it
25 wasn't at anyone's whim. It was a question of self-defence."
1 Now, Major Malinic heard about a prisoner being shot relating to
2 an incidence involving a member of your police unit at the field. You
3 must have heard of this, sir, or seen it yourself. Isn't that the truth?
4 You were amongst those MPs at the field. Or do you claim that
5 Major Malinic was not telling the truth?
6 A. Not for a single moment did I say that Major Malinic was not
7 telling the truth. The Military Police Battalion was a strong force, and
8 I base that information on my unit of six or seven men that I commanded.
9 This the first time I hear that a battalion of military police was -- or
10 a military policeman was attacked by a policemen.
11 In the Popovic case they did ask me about that murder. I don't
12 know anything about that because there were other military policemen
13 there from the battalion. I never heard a story like that. I can see
14 from the document that Major Malinic also heard about that but he did not
15 witness the situation himself. You have to ask him who he heard it from.
16 I didn't.
17 I've never heard before that a military policeman was attacked.
18 I hear the first time from you. I moved around a lot on that day. I was
19 not at the stadium all the time. I was there from the moment
20 General Mladic arrived to the moment when the prisoners were taken away
21 by buses and I escorted them to Bratunac. On that day, I was out on a
22 mission with the armoured vehicle of the military police. My radius of
23 movement was 600 metres to a kilometre. I even went to Milici to fetch
24 bread on one occasion. That may have happened, but I really didn't hear
25 before that a military policeman was attacked.
1 And as for the murder you mentioned yesterday and that was
2 mentioned to me in my last appearance before the Court, I don't know
3 anything about that. Of my six men whose commander I was, nobody was
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down, please.
6 MS. HASAN:
7 Q. Did you have anything more to say?
8 A. That's all. It is possible but I don't know anything about that.
9 I didn't do it, none of my men did it. The police battalion was huge.
10 Various sorts of assistance arrived on that day. You have to talk to
11 Major Malinic and ask him who he heard that from. I never heard of an
12 attack against the military policemen. I heard from your questions that
13 something like that did happen. As far as I am concerned, the prisoners
14 co-operated with me. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be sitting here today.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Subotic, there's no reason to tell Ms. Hasan
16 whom she should ask a certain question. Please just answer the questions
17 that are put to you.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. You just mentioned there were various sorts of assistance that
21 arrived on that day. Who -- who arrived that day? Besides your unit,
22 who was there at the stadium?
23 A. I spoke about my unit, about the battalion of military police of
24 the 65th Protection Regiment. There were four military police companies.
25 One was an anti-terrorist component. There was a company of armoured
1 vehicles. And our units arrived from Crna Rijeka and from all over the
2 place to assist us. I did not have in mind all other VRS units. I just
3 had in mind our own battalion units, all of us military policemen.
4 Q. Let's move on. At paragraph 28 of your statement, Witness, you
5 discuss press teams that were at the Nova Kasaba stadium, and you
6 specifically mention one crew which you say was from the Serbian
7 television SRNA. And you don't mention in your statement that there was,
8 together with the military officers, who were also filming what was going
9 on. But that's the case, isn't it?
10 A. I mentioned that TV SRNA television, Radio Srpska. I remember
11 that because I gave them an interview. And members of the military --
12 well, look members of the military. I mean, people were in uniform. I
13 think they were from the press centre of the Army of Republika Srpska.
14 They were carrying cameras. It's possible that they were cameramen.
15 Probably they were since they were recording this. But what I remember
16 is radio television of Republika Srpska from SRNA because I gave them an
17 interview there at the stadium. That's why I remember them.
18 Q. And have you ever seen that recorded footage of the prisoners at
19 Nova Kasaba or of you giving an interview? Have you ever seen that
21 A. Well, no, to tell you the truth. I did ask for that. I had some
22 friends up there, a journalist, Goran Malnaga, to go through the archives
23 and to find this for me. However, he never managed to find that. I
24 would really like that to happen. I'd really like to have it found.
25 There were Muslim prisoners there too, and they confirmed everything I
1 said during that interview. But they never managed to find that for me.
2 Now what happened to this, I don't know. Probably it's somewhere in the
3 archives of that television. I really don't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, we have to finish exactly in time, so
5 therefore this would be your last question.
6 MS. HASAN: May I pose one more question and then I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: One more question, please.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. Witness, we, in our investigations, have been looking for this
10 footage for many, many, many years, several years, and we haven't found a
11 trace of it, either with SRNA or the VRS press centre. Do you know or
12 have any information about what happened to this footage?
13 A. Well, really, I don't know. I would also like to have it found,
14 that interview of mine because --
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you told us before. You say you don't
16 know. I think that's an answer to the question, Ms. Hasan, or would you
17 like to have any further specifics?
18 MS. HASAN: Only if he has more information. But otherwise, if
19 he has no information, then that's fine.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You don't know anything more about that
21 footage, where it went, in whose hands it is?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know. No, no, no.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for the day.
24 And, Mr. Subotic, again tomorrow we'll start with the videolink
25 testimony, so I'm afraid that you will have to have some more patience
1 tomorrow as well. I don't even know whether we could resume tomorrow
2 with you, and otherwise it would be the day after tomorrow. You'll be
3 updated by the Victims and Witness Section.
4 I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
5 with whomever about your testimony, whether already given or still to be
6 given. You may follow the usher.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, now that the witness has left the
10 courtroom, when you intervened and said that the question by Ms. Hasan
11 misstates the evidence, that was an inappropriate objection. The witness
12 who in his statement said again and again that General Mladic said that
13 buses would arrive, et cetera, answered to one of the previous questions
14 of Ms. Hasan showing a further commitment by saying:
15 "... he promised that the transportation means would arrive and
16 that did happen," and: "He would personally see to that and made sure
17 that it was all organised."
18 This is a commitment going further than the evidence we find in
19 his statement. And if Ms. Hasan put a follow-up question on that, it
20 should not have been objected to in the way you did it because that could
21 be understood as a signal by someone that the organisation of the
22 transportation is not what the Defence would like to hear and would
23 misstate the evidence.
24 It was inappropriate and inadmissible. We -- I leave it to that.
25 We'll resume --
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, objections are never admissible or
2 inadmissible. Objections are made and are ruled upon. I take exception
3 to your classification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: They can be inappropriate. Anything done by counsel
5 which is inappropriate - for that only reason - is inadmissible. Not in
6 terms of criminal procedure but just something that is not acceptable, if
7 my language is clear enough.
8 We'll adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow, 9.30 in the
9 morning, at -- the 11th of March in this same courtroom.
10 We stand adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
13 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.