Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32831

 1                           Tuesday, 10 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the parties had reached an

12     agreement on practical matters for next week, but I would just like

13     to first -- for this week, but I'd like to first start with the videolink

14     so to see that that's done as quickly as possible because we're always

15     dependent on technical support.

16             I'd like to verify first whether the videolink is functioning

17     well.

18             I see on my screen that at the far end the microphone would be

19     not be activated.  Now it is it on.  I see it on my screen.  Could the

20     representative of the Registry at the other side of the videolink confirm

21     that she hears me and that she sees me.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

23     hereby confirm that we can hear you and we can see you from this side.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And we can hear you and we can see you.  Could you

25     tell us who is with you in the videolink room.

Page 32832

 1             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself,

 2     there is the ITSS ICTY technician.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the witness be escorted into your

 4     videolink room.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And the next witness, no protective measures, would

 7     be Mr. Djuric.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for the witness to arrive.

10             May I take it that the witness has been informed about the course

11     of events during this videolink testimony?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we explained him -- I explained him

13     personally and my investigator met with him or called him yesterday and

14     explained the same.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, can you hear us and can you see us?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I can see you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, before you give evidence the Rules

20     require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text is now

21     handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  MILENKO DJURIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 32833

 1                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Djuric.  Please be seated.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, questions will be put to you by

 5     Mr. Ivetic.  You'll soon see him on your screen.  Mr. Ivetic is a member

 6     of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   I would first ask that you repeat your full name slowly so that

13     it is properly entered into the record.

14        A.   Milenko.

15        Q.   And your last name?

16        A.   Djuric.

17        Q.   Sir, did you give a written statement to the Defence team for

18     General Ratko Mladic?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to take a look at 1D01760.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letters are very small.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Is it possible to zoom in on the other end?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's okay.  Now I can see

24     everything.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 32834

 1        Q.   Sir, could you tell us if you recognise the signature on the

 2     first page of this document?

 3        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 4        Q.   And if we could now turn to the last page of the document, can

 5     you tell us, sir, whose signature appears on this page of the document?

 6        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 7        Q.   And, sir, does the date which is recorded herein correspond to

 8     your recollection of the date you would have signed this statement?

 9        A.   I think that the date is correct, yes.

10        Q.   Subsequent to signing this statement, did you have a chance to

11     read the same in full to determine if everything was correctly recorded

12     therein?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And so do you stand by everything as written in your statement as

15     being accurate?

16        A.   Yes, everything I stated is accurate and I stand by it.

17        Q.   Sir, if I were to ask you the same questions today on the same

18     matters as in your written statement, would your answers today be

19     substantially the same as is written in your statement?

20        A.   Yes, I wouldn't change my statement.  I stand by what I said.

21        Q.   And, sir, you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth

22     today.  Does that mean that what is recorded in your statement is

23     truthful in nature?

24        A.   Looking from my point of view, everything is accurate.  I stated

25     what I know, what I experienced.  I couldn't talk about the things that I

Page 32835

 1     don't know.

 2        Q.   And do you believe everything that you have spoken about to be

 3     truthful?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time we would tender 1D01760

 6     as the next exhibit number.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  No objections, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

 9             Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement receives number D927.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D927 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I would read the public

13     summary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Milenko Djuric was born in Kotor Varos and is a

16     permanent resident of Vrbanci village in Kotor Varos municipality.  He

17     lived in Rastik village from his birth to the beginning of the war.  His

18     village is situated next to a Muslim village called Vecici.  Vecici had

19     30 houses and 700 to 800 residents, whereas his village had 30 houses and

20     approximately 100 residents.

21             He was mobilised on 10 May 1992 into the Territorial Defence and

22     tasked with protecting the Rastik village.  Rastik village was attacked

23     on several occasions by the forces in Vecici and were thus forced to move

24     out.  The Muslims set up barricades in Vrbanci on several occasions and

25     thus put the witness and other Serbs under complete blockade and

Page 32836

 1     isolation from Kotor Varos.

 2             On 24 July 1992, the witness was on his way to his barn when

 3     Muslim and Croat soldiers captured him.  He was tied up and locked in a

 4     cellar of the house of Kasim Ilibic in Vecici where several other Serbs

 5     were held.  They were tortured and subjected to physical and

 6     psychological abuse.  Two other Serbs being held were killed.

 7             The ABiH forces in Vecici had around 500 to 600 men, not all of

 8     them wearing uniforms, but even those without uniforms were armed.  At

 9     the beginning of November, these forces were ambushed by the Serb army,

10     and the witness and other survivors were liberated.

11             After the witness was liberated, he heard from neighbours that

12     the local Serb population retaliated against the captured Muslim soldiers

13     in Grabovica because of the crime they had committed against the local

14     Serb population.  They said that the Serb army was unable to prevent the

15     revenge, and the mothers of killed Serb boys were the most aggressive.

16             Your Honour, that completes the summary.

17        Q.   Mr. Djuric, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the

18     Defence team, I thank you for your testimony.  We have no further

19     questions.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  No questions, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

23             Mr. Djuric, you've been only four a very short time with us.

24     Nevertheless, I would like to thank you for coming to the location where

25     the videolink room is and for having --

Page 32837

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and for having answered the questions that were

 3     put to you by Mr. Ivetic.  Even if it was short, it doesn't mean that

 4     your testimony is that short because we have your written statement,

 5     which was admitted into evidence, and therefore even if there was not --

 6     there were not a lot of words spoken today, nevertheless your statement

 7     is received and is in evidence before this Chamber.

 8             I'd like to thank you again very much, and I wish you a safe

 9     return home again.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  I wonder if I may be excused, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You're excused.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm obliged.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness, which

17     is a witness who will testify without protective measures.  And

18     Mr. Lukic, that would be Mr. Branko Beric?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for Mr. Beric to be escorted into

21     the videolink room.

22             Madam Registrar at the other side of the videolink, is the next

23     witness ready to enter the videolink room?

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.  He is on his

25     way.  He is just walking a little bit slow.

Page 32838

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for him to enter that courtroom.

 2             Mr. Lukic, I abuse the time by reminding you that the Chamber

 3     expected you to give us further information as to the drafting and filing

 4     of expert reports.

 5                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that the witness entered the videolink

 7     room, and you prepare for it, Mr. ...

 8             Madam Registrar, I have some technical problems.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, good morning, Mr. Beric.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you can hear us.  Can you see us?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see you and I can hear you

14     very well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Beric, before you give evidence, the Rules

16     require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text is now

17     handed out to you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  BRANKO BERIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           [Witness testified via videolink]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Beric.  Please be seated.

24             Mr. Beric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll soon

25     see him on your screen.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

Page 32839

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Beric.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Could you please slowly tell us your name for the record.

 6        A.   Branko Beric.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D1675.

 8        Q.   Mr. Beric, did you give a written statement to the General Mladic

 9     Defence team?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   Before you on the screen, you can see a document.  Can you see a

12     signature on the document, and do you recognise the signature?

13        A.   This is my personal signature.  I recognise it.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last page of

15     the document.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sure.

17             This is again my personal signature.  I signed the document on

18     the 26th of June, 2014.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So the signature on the last page is also yours.  When you -- or,

21     rather, did you have an opportunity to read your statement and did you

22     make sure that everything was recorded correctly?

23        A.   Yes, I had just one little objection.

24        Q.   I will make short pauses between your answers and my questions to

25     allow the interpreter to interpret everything correctly.  I don't want to

Page 32840

 1     confuse you.

 2        A.   Please make sure that the interpretation is really correct.

 3        Q.   What is recorded in your statement, or rather what you stated to

 4     the best of your recollection, is it all accurate and truthful?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

 7     provide the same answers?

 8        A.   In essence, yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement into

10     evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do so, Mr. Lukic, the witness, at page

12     9, line 24, said:  "Yes, I just had one little objection."  Was that

13     objection attended to?

14             MR. LUKIC:  At that moment, I was switching in between channels,

15     so I didn't hear him saying that.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, you heard Judge Moloto.  He heard you

17     say that you had a small objection to the statement.  Did you really say

18     that; and if you did, what did you have in mind?

19        A.   That I said that now, that I had an objection?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   No, I only said that I would like to ask you to watch the

22     interpretation, make sure that it is correct when I provide my answers.

23     That's all I said.

24        Q.   Is there anything that you would like to correct in the statement

25     or not, according to you?

Page 32841

 1        A.   I don't think so, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1675 receives number D928.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D928 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would read statement summary of

 7     Mr. Beric and I will have several questions for him.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             Branko Beric will testify about interethnic relationships in

11     Prijedor before, during, and after the multi-party elections, emphasizing

12     that personally he saw Muslim groups training for combat at Carakova

13     village.

14             He will describe how a mortar artillery piece exploded in the

15     village due to improper use.  Mr. Beric will recount that as early as

16     February or March 1992, the Muslims started to move out women and

17     children from Prijedor voluntarily and in an organised manner.

18             He will also speak about individuals wearing sweat suits in

19     Prijedor and its surroundings as a sign of membership in the Patriotic

20     League; i.e., in the Muslim military formations.

21             Branko Beric was assigned to the Territorial Defence Staff and

22     the logistics base established by the SDS, which was headed by Major

23     Kuruzovic.  He will present information about the establishing of

24     Trnopolje collection centre, about helping the Muslim population at

25     Trnopolje, by providing accommodations, food, and medical aid.

Page 32842

 1             Mr. Beric will testify that no individuals were killed at

 2     Trnopolje and there was no machine-gun nests or barb wire.

 3             He will describe how Ms. Penny Marshall made the photograph by

 4     which she deceived the international public.  He will testify that the

 5     population there was provided food by the ICRC and the municipal

 6     Red Cross.

 7             Branko Beric has information about the secret storages of

 8     medicines and other military medical supplies found at Kozarac which were

 9     indicative of preparations for the war.

10             He will also describe some examples where he provided assistance

11     to the Muslims at Trnopolje.

12             And that was his statement summary.  Now I have several questions

13     for this witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could I ask one question to the

15     witness, Mr. Lukic.

16             Witness, you gave a statement.  That statement has been admitted

17     into evidence.  Do you remember when it was not that you signed the

18     statement but that you gave the statement?  Therefore, the day on which

19     you were interviewed?  When was that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same day.  Or perhaps a day

21     or a couple of days earlier.  I don't remember the date, but that's when

22     I signed the statement.  On the 26th of June, 2014.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that was almost immediately not more than

24     a few days after you were interviewed.  Is that correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that, approximately.

Page 32843

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Beric, did you have an opportunity after the war to talk to

 5     your fellow citizens who were of Muslim ethnicity?  Did you talk to them

 6     about why they called Trnopolje a camp?

 7        A.   May I answer?

 8        Q.   Yes, yes, please go ahead.

 9        A.   These are my friends, former and current.  Large numbers of them,

10     especially during the summer, during vacation time we meet up.  We're

11     happy to see each other.  We have a drink together.  We are delighted to

12     see one another.  Most often these people come from Sweden and other

13     countries.

14             During these conversations, some of these friends of mine -- I

15     mean, regardless, we grew up together, we never paid attention to ethnic

16     background.  They told me that after interrogations in the camp, which

17     nobody is denying, Omarska or Trnopolje -- no, sorry, Keraterm.  When

18     they came to the centre in Trnopolje, within a few days time, they would

19     leave, go to third countries or go home.  They had the feeling that they

20     had come to the best hotel in the world, like the Hyatt hotel, compared

21     to Omarska, the camp of Omarska, of course, if you compare that to the

22     collection centre in Trnopolje.

23             When during these conversations why is it that now some Muslims,

24     after these unfortunate events, and often not those who were at the

25     collection centre or reception centre, would say that they say honest

Page 32844

 1     people never said that.  I said, "Why do you call the reception centre a

 2     camp?"  Then they said to me that thanks to this statement, they were

 3     given major privileges in third countries as such.  If they say that they

 4     were not in a camp, they would have less benefits and less privileges in

 5     third countries, and also when returning to their own places of

 6     residence.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 8 of your statement --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have that on our

 9     screens, paragraph 8, page 3.

10        Q.   You say:

11             "In Trnopolje, I also saw a large number of Muslims from Kozarac

12     dressed in sweat suits, while they wore military-issue boots."

13             Did you react in some way when you noticed that?

14        A.   Before this answer, I have to provide Their Honours with an

15     explanation.  Because I worked in the veterinary service, and for years

16     everybody knew me all over Prijedor in each and every settlement, and

17     when I'd come in the morning between 9.00 and 10.00, by 1.00 at the

18     latest, since I was in charge of the medical unit, I brought in medicine

19     and they had an infirmary of their own, a Muslim infirmary that was

20     organised at the reception centre of Trnopolje.  There was good doctors

21     there and a colleague of mine, Hasa, a veterinarian, was also working

22     there.  I brought them whatever they needed.

23             On one occasion, because there were thousands of people there at

24     one point, and I would even bring them substances that would do away with

25     the unpleasant smells.  Everybody knew me, masses of people, when I'd

Page 32845

 1     come to that football pitch, and a lot of people would gather around me.

 2     For example, on such occasions, I happened to be a smoker, to this day,

 3     and I'd always have two packs on me, and I would always give them

 4     cigarettes.

 5             I knew lots of these young men and it was really hard for me.

 6     Nothing had happened.  They came to the reception centre of their own

 7     free will.  Of course, it was the safest for them there.  This is what

 8     I'm trying to explain, paragraph 8.

 9             I noticed that many of them wore track suits and jeans, and they

10     had military-issue boots as footwear.  I advised them to throw away these

11     military-issue boots anywhere and that it would be better for them to

12     walk around barefooted, it was already summertime, because the police

13     would come in and they would come looking for some people on the basis of

14     testimonies provided in Omarska by their own people, and then they would

15     take them to Omarska.  And I didn't want these young men to suffer

16     because they were so naive.  They listened to what I said, and hundreds

17     of them threw away these boots, military-issue boots.  They walked around

18     barefoot until they went to third countries.  They freely moved about,

19     they went for baths, they would find slippers or flip flops which they

20     used until they left.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We need page 5 of your statement now, paragraph 23.

22             Mr. Beric, in this paragraph, you are commenting upon the skinny

23     Muslim from the photographs in Trnopolje.  Do you know anything more

24     about him?  Can you tell us more about him?  Do you know him?  What can

25     you tell us about him today?

Page 32846

 1        A.   I know quite a bit.  First of all, this young man -- well, I was

 2     there in that period.  I am saying that I was there briefly for a month,

 3     a month and a half, and after that I was sent to the front for some

 4     reason.  Probably because I helped Muslims a lot --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  You say you were there.  Where were

 6     you?  Is that paragraph 23 --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reception centre.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is Trnopolje, not Omarska.  Is that well

 9     understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trnopolje.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This young man was not at Trnopolje

13     at the reception centre there, probably.  I cannot say exactly whether he

14     was in Omarska or Keraterm.  And then after the interrogation, he was

15     released.  He was released to the Trnopolje reception centre, and from

16     there he went to third countries very quickly because the

17     International Red Cross organised transportation to third countries

18     practically every day either on buses or trains or trucks.

19             This young man was ill unfortunately even before the war.  His

20     own neighbours testified to that to this day.  I must say that I'm sorry

21     to have heard that he had died recently.  I'm sorry that this lady

22     journalist deceived the entire world because in Trnopolje there was never

23     any barbed wire or --

24        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Just a minute.  I asked you about this

25     young man.  The skinny young man.  What do you know about him?  Where is

Page 32847

 1     he from?  What was his ailment?  Do you know anything?

 2        A.   I do.  As far as I know --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, let's first ask about the name of the

 4     person, whether the witness --

 5             Do you know what the name of that, as you said, skinny person is?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I cannot remember right now.  I

 7     knew so many people.  All over the municipality.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Where exactly did he live?  A village, what house?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not tell you exactly now.

10     Just roughly.  Close to a hamlet, Sivci.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed and tell us what you know more about

12     this person, preferably what you personally observed and know of rather

13     than what others told you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see that because already

15     then when this was photographed I wasn't there.  I was at the front line

16     in Gradacac, even before that.  But I can describe the place where this

17     photomontage was done.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We have that in your statement.  You've already described that.

20             Tell me, do you know what this young man's ailment was, to the

21     best of your knowledge?

22        A.   From his neighbours and friends, Muslims and others, I heard that

23     the young man had tuberculosis, even before the war.  Whoever wanted to,

24     perhaps the Prosecutor or somebody, could have found this documentation

25     at the health centre in Prijedor even before the war, because you know

Page 32848

 1     that such illnesses were always filed in records.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 35 --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we need page 6 of the statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the witness could also tell us where he met

 5     this person before the war.

 6             Could you tell us, Witness, how and when did you meet that person

 7     before the war?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About a year before the war in our

 9     local infirmary that belonged to the Prijedor veterinary station, I was

10     sent there to replace a colleague, a vet, who had gone to do his military

11     service, so I knew that area too.

12             We had different activities of prevention and cure.  I know that

13     when I went out on these prevention campaigns, when we vaccinated dogs in

14     particular, I noticed a young man like that.  I think that I saw him near

15     this hamlet of Sivci.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you speak to him?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Everybody avoids such people.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you didn't speak to him, but he looked like the

19     one, if I understand you well, that you saw on this photograph?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 35 of your statement, we're just going

24     to focus briefly on Nusret Sivac, you said in this paragraph of your

25     statement that he was never in Trnopolje.

Page 32849

 1        A.   May I say --

 2        Q.   Which period does this pertain to?  When is it that you know that

 3     he was not there, and do you know when he left Prijedor?

 4        A.   First, could I just give an introduction?

 5        Q.   Briefly, please.

 6        A.   I knew Nusret Sivac --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please answer the question to

 8     start with.  If there's any further explanation needed, Mr. Lukic will

 9     let you know.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

11             It is a well-known matter that Nusret Sivac was in the Omarska

12     camp, and nobody is denying that.  When he was released after having been

13     interrogated at the Omarska camp, of course, at first they were all

14     brought to the reception centre in Trnopolje.  Nusret Sivac spent only

15     one day free in the reception centre, and then he left, I don't know how.

16     I don't know whether he walked or took a vehicle.  It's not far away.  He

17     went home to Prijedor where he had a wife and son.  It so happened that

18     he was an exceptional personal friend of my niece and her husband.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

20     the names of these persons.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please repeat the name -- names

23     of the persons you just mentioned.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nusret Sivac was friends before the

25     war with my niece and her husband, Mladen Vukajlovic and

Page 32850

 1     Vesna Selimbegovic Vukajlovic.  He turned to them when he came home, and

 2     Mladen, as a matter of fact, when he said that he wanted to go to a third

 3     country, Mladen offered him money, and he said that there was no need for

 4     that.  So then through them he asked my nephew, my oldest sister,

 5     Selimbegovic Ciro - unfortunately, he and his friend, Mile, they died

 6     after the war - and they drove him from Prijedor to Gradiska as

 7     requested.  And this nephew of mine, because of his name and surname,

 8     risked his own life.

 9             And then after the war, Nusret Sivac, as he was promoting his

10     business related to his book, he wrote the most terrible things about my

11     nephew.  He said the most terrible things.  And he actually did him a

12     favour driving him to Gradiska, risking his own life.  People could have

13     asked en route who you are, where are you coming from, and they could

14     have all fared very badly.  However, thank God everything ended well.

15             May I add something to that?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone is off.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't -- Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, I think the witness asked you

22     something --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and you didn't switch on your microphone when you

25     responded.  Please repeat what you said.

Page 32851

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Beric, just briefly, if you can, our time is running.  What

 3     do you wish to add?

 4        A.   I can add something else.  I don't understand -- many Muslims

 5     wrote books.  He was one of them.  But I don't understand how come that a

 6     person who was in Omarska all the time can describe Keraterm and the

 7     reception centre in Trnopolje and what was going on in town?  Could he

 8     have possibly been in all those places at the same time?

 9        Q.   Well, this was a question, and you're here to answer questions.

10     I can't answer your question or anybody else in the courtroom.

11             In any case, thank you, Mr. Beric.  This is all we had for you at

12     the moment.  Thank you for providing your statement and thank you for

13     answering our questions.

14        A.   I would like to thank the Court.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

16             Mr. Traldi, wouldn't it be wise to take the break now, five

17     minutes early, so that you can then finish your cross-examination in

18     one -- or would you be finished in five minutes?  No.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I think I could use five minutes fairly efficiently,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll --

22             Mr. Beric, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You

23     will see him soon on your screen.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

24     Prosecution.

25             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

Page 32852

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 2        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning, Mr. Judge.

 4        Q.   I have a few questions about your responsibilities during the

 5     relevant period.

 6             First, you say at the end of your statement that you left

 7     Prijedor on the 28th of July, 1992, and went to the front at Gradacac.

 8     What unit were you a member of when you went to the front?

 9        A.   I was assigned to the 3rd Battalion when I arrived at the front

10     line.

11        Q.   That's the 3rd Battalion of the 43rd Motorised Brigade of the

12     VRS; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When were you mobilised into that unit?

15        A.   About a month or a month and a half following the attack on

16     Prijedor.  I was a member of the medical service in the logistics base

17     before that.  That was my specialty from the JNA.

18        Q.   Just to try to get the chronology a little bit more precise.  In

19     your evidence, how long had you been a soldier in that battalion before

20     you went to the front?

21        A.   I don't remember the exact date when I joined the battalion.  It

22     was first the 7th Battalion and then it was renamed and became the

23     3rd Battalion.

24        Q.   And turning to your work at the logistics base that you just

25     mentioned in Cirkin Polje, who was your superior officer there?

Page 32853

 1        A.   Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic.  He was the chief of that logistics base.

 2        Q.   And did you have a rank there?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   Now --

 5        A.   I was a foot soldier.

 6        Q.   You mention in your statement that you had a driver.  Why were

 7     you entitled to a driver?

 8        A.   Yes.  Because in peacetime and in wartime alike, every paramedic

 9     has a vehicle assigned to him and a driver.  I was a paramedic.

10        Q.   And that logistics base, among other things, provided food and

11     supplies to the VRS and to the police; right?

12        A.   I don't remember whether supplies were provided to the police,

13     but, yes, the VRS, because the VRS provided security for Trnopolje and

14     the logistics base.  I just happened to know that on one occasion when we

15     received a large quantities of cigarettes, those cigarettes were

16     distributed among the police as well.

17        Q.   As to Trnopolje, did you ever have any position at Trnopolje, any

18     official position?

19        A.   No.  I would just go there every day, around 9.00 or between 9.00

20     and 12.00 or 9.00 and 1.00, and I inquired as to what they were missing,

21     what they needed.  Sometimes I would deliver some medical supplies that

22     they needed.  On one occasion, the most important thing for them was to

23     have disinfectant for the toilet bowls.  There were a lot of people there

24     and there was foul smell there.  I had a very good co-operation with

25     their medical unit.  There was a very good doctor and my colleague, Hasa.

Page 32854

 1     I had very good co-operation with them.

 2        Q.   Now there was a foul small, in part, because thousands of people

 3     were using the outdoor toilets that they'd dug there; right?

 4        A.   Well, yes, that as well.  Thousands upon thousands.  Some were in

 5     their vehicles, some in the school.  Especially mothers and children were

 6     in the school because it was a good building.  There was a big sports

 7     facility there, and that's where they were accommodated.

 8        Q.   And you yourself were not present at Trnopolje or even in

 9     Prijedor municipality anymore when the journalists' visit to Trnopolje

10     occurred; right?

11        A.   There were all sorts of journalists, you know --

12        Q.   Sir --

13        A.   I only saw --

14        Q.   Sir, I'm going to interrupt you.  The visit you refer to in your

15     statement, that occurred after you had gone to the front at Gradacac;

16     right?

17        A.   That female journalist who is the author of that video-clip or

18     that photo featuring barbed wire, is that what you have in mind?

19        Q.   It is.

20        A.   I wasn't there.  But I am familiar with the area where that photo

21     was taken.  That area is the same.  It hasn't changed to this very day.

22     There was never barbed wire there and the footprint of the area is only

23     2 square metres.

24        Q.   Similarly, you were never there when Nusret Sivac was there and

25     you don't know how long he was in Trnopolje; right?

Page 32855

 1        A.   I don't know how long.  A day, a couple of days, three days

 2     perhaps.

 3        Q.   And when I say in your statement:  "I state that there was no

 4     fence around the centre and that Nusret Sivac was never there," in fact,

 5     as you've testified today, you know he was there, and you've put in your

 6     statement and attested to this morning something that you know not to be

 7     the truth; right?

 8        A.   I never stated that he had never been in Trnopolje.  I only know

 9     that when he was released from Omarska, he spent a couple of days there,

10     and from there, anybody could go wherever they wanted.  The Red Cross was

11     very efficient in organising departures to third countries.  He went home

12     and then my cousin -- by nephew took him, his wife, and their son to

13     Gradiska.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any way you can assist us where the

15     witness, in the English version, is recorded as having said "Nusret Sivac

16     was never there"?  Is there any possibility that there is a language

17     issue?

18             MR. LUKIC:  There is no language issue.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no language issue.

20             Then I leave it you Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, I note we're at the time for the break.  Before we break,

23     I'm just going to put to you that you've included something in your

24     statement that you've testified today that you clearly know not to be the

25     truth.  That's right, isn't it?

Page 32856

 1        A.   It may have been a slip of the tongue.  I know that all those

 2     were released from Omarska would end in Trnopolje first, and then they

 3     would go home, and then to third countries.  It may have been a slip of

 4     the tongue.  I may have misspoken.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if the witness says that he --

 7             Witness, if you say you may have misspoken, do you mean to say

 8     that Mr. Sivac did not go to Trnopolje, because today you told us that he

 9     would have been there if only for a couple of days.  Is that the truth?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes.  This is the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, in your statement, which you said you had

12     reviewed and to which you attested today, we read:

13             "I state that there was no fence around the centre and that

14     Nusret Sivac was never there."

15             But today you are telling us that he was there, though you do not

16     know for how long.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my assumption about the

18     reception centre in Trnopolje that there were people there who stayed for

19     a month or 20 days, but there were also those who had been interrogated

20     and released and then they would stay there only a day or a couple of

21     days.  That's what I had in mind.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People who stayed there in my

24     mind --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you just don't know, if I understand you

Page 32857

 1     well, for how long Nusret Sivac would have been in Trnopolje?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take break.  We'd like to see you back in 20

 4     minutes, Mr. Beric.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, if you are ready, you may continue.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Sir, I want to ask now about your colleague, or your fellow

14     veterinarian, Sead Sivac, who you mention in your statement.  Were you

15     two friends?

16        A.   Before the war.

17        Q.   And about how old was he in 1992?

18        A.   Much younger than me; 23, 24, or 25.  He was a student first, and

19     then he joined the army.  I really don't know how old he was.  We worked

20     together for a year, and we had a good relationship.

21        Q.   Have you seen him since the war?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the unnecessary microphones please be

23     switched off.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 32858

 1        Q.   You know he was detained in Omarska in 1992; right?

 2        A.   I don't know that personally.  I only heard about that.  I

 3     personally didn't see him there.

 4        Q.   What you heard is also that he was taken out of Omarska one night

 5     in the summer of 1992 and never returned; right?

 6        A.   I don't know that.  I only heard that he had been in Omarska.

 7     Unfortunately, I have not seen him after the war.  I don't know what his

 8     lot was.  People say that he was killed.  I suppose that if he were

 9     alive, I would have seen him.  There's no reason for the two of us not to

10     meet after the war.  We had a good relationship.

11        Q.   Now, you testified earlier today that you thought people would

12     suffer if they were sent to Omarska.  That's because you knew the people

13     detained there, like your friend Sead Sivac, were being detained in

14     terrible, criminal conditions, that people were being beaten, that people

15     were being killed; right?

16        A.   Let me tell you, I don't know that but I heard stories, and I

17     also saw on TV, I heard the testimonies of the people who were charged

18     with such misdeeds in Omarska.  Nobody in Prijedor denies that that

19     happened.  We saw things on TV, we know that there were trials.  It would

20     be a sin for anybody to say that things like that did not happen.

21        Q.   Well, just to be very specific.  You testified on direct that you

22     were concerned while you were at Trnopolje that people would suffer if

23     they were sent to Omarska.  You were aware at that time in the summer of

24     1992 already that serious crimes were being committed against the

25     prisoners in that camp; right?

Page 32859

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a technical problem.  Could we try

 2     to restore the connection.

 3             I think ... for one second I thought we would have restored the

 4     connection, but it seems that it's gone again.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We're back.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it seems that we're connected again.

 7             Could I just verify.  First of all, I see that the far end

 8     microphone is switched off.  Could that be switched on again.  It is.

 9     The microphone is on now.

10             Mr. Beric, can you now hear us again and can you see us again?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And can you see us as well?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I can see you personally.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, I'll repeat my last question.

18             You testified on direct that you were concerned while you were at

19     Trnopolje that people would suffer if they were sent to Omarska.  You

20     were aware at that time in the summer of 1992 already that serious crimes

21     were being committed against the prisoners in Omarska camp; right?

22        A.   I can't say that I was aware of crimes.  I only knew that there

23     was a camp and that the conditions were somewhat harsh.  Nobody in

24     Prijedor denies that it was a camp.  It would be very sad if somebody

25     denied that.

Page 32860

 1             As to what was going on there, I don't know.  I was never there.

 2     But I did see video-clips.  I know that there were trials.  I know that

 3     people have been taken to task for the goings-on there.

 4        Q.   Sir, focusing very directly on what you knew in the summer of

 5     1992, what made you think the conditions there were harsh?

 6        A.   Well, towards the end of my occasional visits to Trnopolje, some

 7     were already being released from the camp in Omarska and I could notice

 8     that they didn't look too good.  They complained of the conditions.  They

 9     suffered from dysentery.  I helped many of them in the out patients

10     clinic in Trnopolje.  There was an acquaintance of mine, a neighbour,

11     Alija, who had arrived completely naked.  There were a lot of abandoned

12     houses in Trnopolje.  I took him to one of them where he found some

13     clothes, some very new and clean and good clothes.  He had arrived

14     completely naked and he had dysentery, and based on that I could conclude

15     that the conditions in Omarska were bad.

16        Q.   And the houses that had been abandoned in Trnopolje village,

17     they'd been abandoned by the Muslims who used to live there; right?

18        A.   Yes.  But they used them during the day.  They would go to their

19     houses, they would take baths, they would go to their gardens to pick

20     vegetables.  They also grilled chicken in the courtyards.  So during the

21     day they were in their houses but at night they would go to the reception

22     centre where they felt safe and protected from groups of extremists that

23     might appear.

24        Q.   Now you testified you would be at the reception centre during the

25     day.  Were you ever there at night?

Page 32861

 1        A.   No, never.  Neither I nor my driver.  Nor Kuruzovic or his driver

 2     or his security detail.  Only during the day.  Our task or, rather, his

 3     task was to drive supplies to our security detail --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- the supplies consisting of cigarettes and those men were

 6     guarding the people who were there.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm going ask you to focus carefully on my questions.  I

 8     understand that you were never at Trnopolje at night, what you call a

 9     reception centre.  How do you know whether Major Kuruzovic was there at

10     night?

11        A.   I am not sure that he was ever there.  I'm not sure that he ever

12     went there during the night at least while I was there, for one month and

13     a half.  I can't give you any guarantees about the period thereafter.

14        Q.   Well, you testified a moment ago that you were never there at

15     night, nor Kuruzovic or his driver or his security detail.  And what I'm

16     suggesting to you is you don't know whether Major Kuruzovic was there at

17     night or not because you yourself weren't there at night; right?

18        A.   You're not right.  Because I added something and that was for as

19     long as I was in Prijedor for a month and a half, I can give you my

20     personal guarantee that he didn't go there during the night -- during

21     that period of time, and then after I left perhaps they went there during

22     the night, but I can't say anything about that.

23        Q.   Well, did you live in the same house as him?

24        A.   No.  No.

25        Q.   Would you -- would you spend every night his company.

Page 32862

 1        A.   No, I went to my own apartment where I joined my family during

 2     the night.

 3        Q.   So you have no idea where he was at night, do you?

 4        A.   No, you are right, I don't know.

 5        Q.   And you testified a moment ago that Muslims in Trnopolje village

 6     used their houses during the day.  In fact, Muslims in Trnopolje village

 7     would spend the day in the camp, just like they spent the night there;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Well, those whose houses were further away.  But they were all

10     acquaintances and friends.  They therefore used the houses that were

11     closer.  That's where they would have baths.  They would spend time

12     there.  In -- they grilled some ten lamb on Bajram, on their religious

13     holiday.  They even invited me.  They had better food than the security

14     detail.  Every day --

15        Q.   Sir --

16        A.   -- the International Red Cross and the Prijedor Red Cross branch

17     prepared food for them in large cauldrons.

18        Q.   We'll get to the Red Cross in a moment.  While we're speaking of

19     these houses, Major Kuruzovic also had a house near Trnopolje camp that

20     he would use; right?

21        A.   While I was there, I know that him, his lads, and myself would

22     sit down across the road from the school.  There was a house there, and

23     there were some wines.  I don't know whether he used that house, whether

24     he went there at night.  I don't know.

25        Q.   And you say in your statement that you're quite sure that he

Page 32863

 1     never raped anyone.  You're aware, aren't you, that the same trials that

 2     you discussed earlier have concluded that he repeatedly raped a woman

 3     over and over, brutally, during the summer of 1992; right?

 4        A.   To this very day, I never attended any trials, sir.  This is the

 5     first time I am in a courtroom.

 6        Q.   Yeah, I understand that, sir.  You testified earlier that you

 7     were aware of findings about Omarska.  What I'm putting to you is you're

 8     also aware of this finding, that Major Kuruzovic had repeatedly raped

 9     this woman.  I'm putting to you, to be very clear, that the findings have

10     been this happened at night and, as you've just testified, you have no

11     idea what he was doing at night.  That's the truth; right?

12        A.   I can just say one thing.  It just so happened -- I don't know

13     whether he attended your trial?  I wasn't following.  Was he there?  Did

14     you see him?

15        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask to you answer my question.

16        A.   Well, I don't know what to answer.  Knowing this charming

17     gentleman, why would he have to do something like that?  I just know when

18     he was there during the day, masses of his students walked up to him and

19     he did his very best to please them, and I don't think that such a

20     charming gentleman would do that.  And to do that, I mean, the hygienic

21     conditions were not good either.  He was a great gentleman, a teacher.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn now for a moment to the Cirkin Polje

23     logistics base.  You testified early that that base supplied the VRS.

24     Now, the Chamber has received evidence, P7129, about a meeting of the

25     Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality and the garrison command on the

Page 32864

 1     10th of June that Major Kuruzovic, and your colleague, Mirko Mudrinic,

 2     among others, attended and at which "all instructions given by the

 3     garrison command and the Crisis Staff in relation to the transformation

 4     of the Territorial Defence into the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH

 5     were accepted."  Were you aware of that meeting?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, P7129, is that under seal, and does that

 7     in any way needs to be addressed?

 8             MR. TRALDI:  It is for a different reason.  It was used in -- it

 9     was used in open session placed, placed under seal because of a

10     particular very specific piece of information that's not included in what

11     mentioned just now.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, under those circumstances, please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Sir, you recall the meeting on the 10th of June that I described

15     a moment ago.  Were you aware of that meeting?

16        A.   No, I don't remember.

17        Q.   But you know the garrison command refers to the command of the

18     43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS; right?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  I was an ordinary soldier.  Nobody invited

20     me to such meetings.  I don't know what this is about.  Maybe you could

21     explain something to me and then I would know what's going on.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Witness, you just have to answer the questions

23     to the best of your knowledge.  That's everything you should do.  You

24     don't have to bother about background or whatever.

25             Please proceed.

Page 32865

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, sir --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Beric.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know of any

 6     such meeting, and I don't remember that, and it was probably the higher

 7     command that had a meeting.  I have nothing to do with any of that, and I

 8     cannot answer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you cannot answer a question, listen to the

10     question and then tell us, I don't know.  Carefully listen to the

11     question.  Mr. Traldi will now resume.

12             Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Now, you testified earlier that Trnopolje was secured by the VRS.

15     That was the 43rd Brigade; right?

16        A.   While I was there, it was the logistics base of the TO, and then

17     later it was probably attached to the 43rd Motorised Brigade.  At that

18     moment, I was sent off to the front.  They chased me away.  Probably

19     somebody didn't like the fact that I was helping Muslims a lot there at

20     the reception centre.  I brought them food and cigarettes, socialised

21     with them, because they were all my acquaintances, and probably somebody

22     was bothered by the fact that I was that way.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  In paragraph 20 of the statement of this gentleman,

25     it was described who guarded, and it says that it was -- that it was

Page 32866

 1     reserve component of the army and they belonged to TO, Territorial

 2     Defence, organised by Crisis Staff --

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And at --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  -- municipality of Prijedor.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And at temporary transcript page 23, line 1, today,

 6     it was the testimony that I referred to, the witness said:

 7             "Yes, the VRS, because the VRS provided security for

 8     Trnopolje..."

 9             And then his sentence continued.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you intervene on a matter of

11     substance, you should, first of all, ensure that the witness cannot hear

12     us.

13             Therefore, apart from that you can deal with that in

14     re-examination.  But the mere fact that the witness has told something in

15     the statement as recorded, as we all know by now doesn't mean that

16     there's no need to put further questions on the matter to the witness.

17             Therefore, Mr. Traldi may now proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 19152.  And the Registrar

19     received two sets of documents for this witness.  This is part of the

20     additional documents provided over the weekend.

21        Q.   Now, sir, this is a report from Prijedor SJB Chief Simo Drljaca

22     to CSB Banja Luka.  Can you just say "yes" when you are able to see it on

23     the screen there?

24        A.   Security station, Prijedor, CSB Banja Luka, chief dispatch, your

25     dispatch number such and such --

Page 32867

 1        Q.   Sir, I am going to interrupt you.  I'm not requesting that you

 2     read the whole document.

 3             If I could direct your attention to the third paragraph, we see

 4     Chief Drljaca refer to what he describes as an open reception centre in

 5     Trnopolje, and looking at the final paragraph, he writes:

 6             "This centre is secured by the Army of the Serbian Republic of

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina," and he says:  "No investigation activities are

 8     carried out in it."

 9             Now that's consistent with your testimony earlier today, though

10     not with your statement, that it was the VRS that secured Trnopolje;

11     right?

12        A.   That's a mistake on his part.  That's a mistake on his part.  Can

13     I just see what the date is?

14        Q.   You can see it in the top left:  The 9th of August, 1992.

15        A.   Until then it was the Territorial Defence because by that date I

16     was not in Trnopolje in the logistics base.  I was already at the front

17     line.  Now whether it became the VRS then -- but until then, I know for

18     sure that it was the Territorial Defence and things changed every day.

19     One platoon from each local commune, usually it was elderly people -- it

20     was a mix of people but usually elderly people from the Territorial

21     Defence.

22             Now after this date it is possible --

23        Q.   Sir, I'm going to interrupt you there.  I'd tender the document

24     and then I will have a follow-up question about your answer.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 32868

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The number, please, Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 19152 receives number P7197.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the 65 ter number,

 5     Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 19152, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The record is complete now.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Now, in fact, security at Trnopolje was provided by the TO for

11     only a few days and then it was taken over by the VRS; right?

12        A.   Not a few days.  Roughly a month and a half.

13        Q.   Well, let's see 65 ter 32239, page 60.  This will be a portion of

14     Mr. Kuruzovic's testimony in the Stakic case.  And I'm looking at the

15     bottom of the page at line 20.  And he's asked by Mr. Stakic's counsel:

16             "Is it correct that only for the first few day, the security was

17     provided by people from the Territorial Defence?

18             He answers:

19             "Yes, that is correct."

20             Mr. Stakic's counsel asks him:

21             "After a few days, the security was provided by the 43rd

22     brigade?"

23             And he responds:

24             "Yes, I don't know when this happened, whether it was after two

25     or three days, but very quickly after that, there were already a number

Page 32869

 1     of people.  The security had to be stepped up."

 2             And he explains why.

 3             Now, that, what you're superior officer, Major Kuruzovic,

 4     testified, that's the truth, that beginning just a few days after it

 5     opened, security at Trnopolje was provided by the VRS; right?

 6        A.   Am I supposed to answer?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   Possibly.  But, still, I saw the same people who were changing

 9     there every day.  The same people, same uniforms.  Now whether they were

10     renamed into something different, that I don't know.  I just know that

11     while I was there, it was always the same people and they took turns.

12     These platoons that used to belong to the TO.  Now if somebody included

13     them in the VRS, that I don't know.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32006.

15        Q.   As it comes up, we saw in that last answer that Major Kuruzovic

16     said security had to be stepped up a few days after the camp opened.

17     Were you working at Trnopolje at the end of May 1992 or visiting

18     Trnopolje at the end of May 1992?

19        A.   I think I came in May.  I think I was still coming in May.  I

20     still hadn't been chased away to the front line.

21        Q.   Now, this is a Croatian intercept from a few days after the camp

22     opened; 31 May 1992.  We read that there is a collection centre for

23     non-Serbs at the stadium in Trnopolje village.  And the Croatians write

24     that:

25             "The enemy is concerned about a breakout from the camp or escape,

Page 32870

 1     so an order has been issued to strengthen security, if necessary, to

 2     three times what it was."

 3             Now that's just about exactly the time that Major Kuruzovic was

 4     saying secured needed to be stepped up; right?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 6     witness.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your last answer, please.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary microphones pleased be

10     switched off.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.  I don't know.  I just

12     know that there were no escapes.  Nobody escaped.  Nobody was running

13     away from the reception centre.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   And you would only be concerned about escapes or the possibility

16     of a breakout if the people there were detained; right?

17        A.   Not necessarily.  Not necessarily.  Maybe somebody would escape

18     to join their forces, their army.  In other places there were still a

19     Muslim army.

20        Q.   What I'm putting to you is you only escape from detention.  If

21     you're free to go, you just walk away.  You're using the word "escape"

22     because these people were prisoners; right?

23        A.   No.  Because during the day, they could go wherever they wanted

24     to and at night-time, when there was a curfew, nobody was allowed to move

25     about, Serbs included.  When there's a curfew, you know that in any war,

Page 32871

 1     there's a curfew.  During the day, as a matter of fact, I and my driver

 2     drove a colleague of his to Prijedor to see his girlfriend, to take a

 3     shower, because it was safer for him to spend the night at the reception

 4     ter.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32006.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We object to these type of documents, as always.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any specifics for this one or just in more

10     general terms that you oppose the intercepts?

11             MR. LUKIC:  We always -- there is no, as I remember, audio

12     recording, and it's not -- there's no source on this document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I take it it's from a series, Mr. Traldi, or

14     could you say a little bit more about it?

15             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct.  It's from a lengthy series.

16             MR. LUKIC:  And it's in indirect speech.  There is no concrete

17     words.  Somebody told us a story about something he thinks he saw --

18     heard.

19             MR. TRALDI:  We're not seeking to attribute speech to any

20     particular individual.  So while that might go to weight, I don't see how

21     it would relate to the admissibility of the intercept.

22             MR. LUKIC:  If it's an intercept and does not -- is not

23     attributed to anybody, I don't know how that could be intercept at all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, sometimes even not knowing who the

25     interlocutors are, you can intercept a conversation.  You can overhear a

Page 32872

 1     conversation sometimes without knowing exactly who is speaking,

 2     Mr. Lukic.  That's not new to you, is it.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  But in this intercept it does not say that they did

 4     not know who or that they had any kind of problems identifying.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I think Mr. Lukic will be familiar with this

 6     collection containing a number of summaries, not all of which refer to

 7     the speakers explicitly by name.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the document will be marked for

11     identification.  The Chamber wants to take a bit more time to find

12     exactly which series it comes from, et cetera, and where it -- what

13     decisions we took for intercepts of the same series.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I can provide additional information.  I would have

15     to do it in private session, so I'd suggest we do it at the break,

16     perhaps.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take that you have done with the document so

18     we can do that at a later stage --

19             MR. TRALDI:  I have.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Lukic.

21             Madam Registrar, the number under which this document will be

22     MFI'd is?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number is P7198.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

25             Please proceed.

Page 32873

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Now, can we please have 65 ter 31654.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a report on the work of the Prijedor municipal

 3     organisation of the Red Cross from the 5th of May to the 30th of

 4     September, 1992.  If we turn to page 9 in the English, 8 in the B/C/S, we

 5     see a number of points below comment -- or below conclusion and comment.

 6     The last of them is that:

 7             "23.000 people have been housed through the reception centre at

 8     Trnopolje, of whom we and the International Red Cross have dispatched

 9     1.561 to the Karlovac reception centre.  On 29 September 1992, a convoy

10     was escorted to Karlovac in the presence of European observers."

11             Now, this reflects what you've testified about already today,

12     that there were many, many thousands of people who went through Trnopolje

13     in the summer of 1992 and many of them were sent to third countries on

14     convoys; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the people at Trnopolje, they were Muslims and Croats; right?

17        A.   Well, I don't remember.  Perhaps there were a few Croats.

18        Q.   And the rest, Muslims?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And they were civilians; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Including women, children, and elderly people?

23        A.   Including people who were civilians, conditionally speaking.

24        Q.   The people there that were civilians that were Muslims and a few

25     Croats, they included women, didn't they?

Page 32874

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   They included children, didn't they?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And they included elderly people; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 31654.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31654 receives number P7199.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Now can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 07021b.

11        Q.   Now, this is a report on the CSCE mission to inspect places of

12     detention in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If we turn to page 4 in both languages,

13     we see a memorandum on Trnopolje.

14             Looking at the second paragraph, we see that at the time this was

15     drafted, "the number of inmates at the centre, of whom the great

16     majority, if not all, are of the Muslim faith, is currently thought to be

17     in the neighbourhood of 2.000."

18             It says:

19             "These people are living in terror and the CSCE mission believe

20     they have substantial reasons for their fears."

21             Now they were living in terror because of the conditions in

22     Trnopolje camp; right?

23        A.   Are you asking me?

24        Q.   I am.

25        A.   Well, my family lived in fear at home too.  And I'm angry about

Page 32875

 1     what is written here, "camp."  Please, it was a reception centre, not a

 2     camp.  I know that in English everything is "kamp," but it is a reception

 3     centre, not a camp, and I don't allow that.  I won't allow it to be

 4     written, "camp."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please refrain from telling what

 6     other people should do, and would you please just answer the questions.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, I'm going to repeat my question.  The people were living in

 9     terror because of the conditions in Trnopolje; right?

10        A.   My family at home lived in fear too because of the civil war.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do I understand that you accept that people

12     were living in fear in Trnopolje?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably.  There was a war

14     going on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you accept that it was due to the conditions

16     in Trnopolje?  Apart from there being a war.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sanitary conditions were

18     difficult, but they had better food than the people who were guarding

19     them.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 07021b.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 07021b receives number P7200.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 32876

 1        Q.   Continuing with the topic of international observation for a

 2     moment, in paragraph 22 of your statement, you say the

 3     International Red Cross was present at Trnopolje from day one.  In fact,

 4     it was the Bosnian Serb Red Cross that was present early in Trnopolje's

 5     existence; right?

 6        A.   Yes, a lady from the International Red Cross came and she was

 7     there from day two or three, I'm not sure.

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   And they provided food every day for those who were there.  It

10     was cooked every day and brought in huge cauldrons.

11        Q.   -- what I'm putting to you is that it was not the Bosnian Serb --

12     or the International Red Cross.  It was not the International Red Cross

13     that was present early in Trnopolje's existence.  It was the Bosnian Serb

14     Red Cross; right?

15        A.   I think you could have checked that with the Red Cross.  There

16     was a lady from the International Red Cross.

17        Q.   Well, I asked because the Trial Chamber's received, for instance,

18     P3965, a document from the International Red Cross that reflects that

19     they were first able to enter Trnopolje around the 10th of August, 1992,

20     after you'd left.  So I'd put to you that it was, in fact, the Bosnian

21     Serb Red Cross, not the International Red Cross, and you are mistaken.

22        A.   I claim that that lady was from the International Red Cross.  She

23     compiled a list of those who wanted to leave.  None of us from the

24     logistics base ever compiled any lists.  It was her in co-operation with

25     the Prijedor Red Cross.

Page 32877

 1             On a daily basis, she compiled lists of those who wanted to go to

 2     third countries, and they did leave in cars, lorries, buses.  I don't

 3     know who it -- who else it was who compiled lists of those who wanted to

 4     leave, and those lists were forwarded a couple of days after they were

 5     compiled.

 6        Q.   Those people who left, they left on convoys, and the Prijedor

 7     police and the VRS assisted in organising and securing those convoys;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, the reserve police.  At first I know that they were headed

10     for Novska, in Croatia.  Most of them were, that is.

11        Q.   Now I'm going focus on the conditions at Trnopolje for a moment.

12     You're aware that many prisoners slept outside; right?

13        A.   How could they be prisoners if they slept outside?  It is correct

14     that they did not sleep inside because there was not enough room.  They

15     slept in their vehicles, tractors, lorries, those that they had arrived

16     in.

17        Q.   But not in their homes because those had, in many cases, been

18     destroyed by Bosnian Serb forces; right?

19        A.   You are partly right.  They did not sleep in their homes because

20     they were safer in the reception centre.  Their houses were not destroyed

21     then.  It happened only later or after the war.  Their houses were not

22     destroyed because the Serbs who had been expelled from Bosanska Kladusa

23     arrived and settled in them.

24        Q.   Well, for instance, in Kozarac, the Chamber has received evidence

25     from a number of Defence witnesses as well as Prosecution witnesses about

Page 32878

 1     the destruction of homes there.  You're aware of that, aren't you?

 2        A.   Yes.  A large number was destroyed.  Not all.  A lot of them.

 3        Q.   Now, you claim in your statement:

 4             "In the period while I was in Trnopolje, no one even suffered as

 5     much as ear pulling."

 6             Now, the Chamber has received evidence that several Muslims in

 7     Trnopolje were taken out of Trnopolje were murdered.  Is it your evidence

 8     you weren't aware of that?

 9        A.   I don't know that they were murdered.  I know that from time to

10     time the reserve police came with an order to investigate some of the

11     Muslims in Trnopolje and took statements from them.  They had orders to

12     take some Muslims and take them to Omarska.  I don't know whether they

13     took them there or somewhere else.  I don't know that.

14        Q.   Well, Slavko Puhalic testified recently.  He described himself as

15     the link between Major Kuruzovic and the other men.  He was essentially

16     Kuruzovic's deputy; right?

17        A.   I don't know what he was, whether he was his deputy.  I know that

18     he was the one who spent most time in Trnopolje so he knows much more

19     than I do.

20        Q.   Well, he testified that he was aware Muslims had been taken out

21     and killed.  Is it your evidence that neither Major Kuruzovic nor any of

22     your other co-workers at the logistics base had informed you that Muslims

23     had been taken out of Trnopolje and killed?

24        A.   Nobody ever told me that.  And what I've just told you was that

25     at the moment I was there, the police did arrive in a blue van.  They had

Page 32879

 1     a written order to take some people to Omarska.  I don't know whether

 2     they indeed took them to Omarska or somewhere else.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   And none of the prisoners you spoke with ever told you that

 4     people had been taken out and murdered.  Is that your evidence?

 5        A.   No.  My Muslim acquaintances with whom I spoke on a daily basis

 6     did tell me that people were taken away, but they never told me that

 7     anybody was murdered.  How could they have known?  People were taken --

 8     or they left and then their friends and acquaintances would drive them

 9     all the way to the Croatian border.

10        Q.   So you know that people were being taken away from Trnopolje that

11     never came back; right?

12        A.   I really don't know whether anybody returned or not.  There were

13     thousands upon thousands of people there.  How should I know if some of

14     them returned?

15        Q.   The Chamber has received evidence that there were numbers of

16     rapes not just by Major Kuruzovic but large numbers of rapes in Trnopolje

17     camp, and again Slavko Puhalic testified that he was aware of some of

18     them.  Is it your evidence you never heard from Major Kuruzovic or anyone

19     else that people were being raped in Trnopolje?

20        A.   While I there, I did not hear any such thing.  I didn't hear

21     that.  Possibly during the night when we were not there.  Slavko perhaps

22     knows because he was there more often and stayed longer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Witness, could I ask you one question.

24     You said you know that the police was taken persons and you don't know

25     whether they took them to Omarska or somewhere else.  You don't know.  Do

Page 32880

 1     you know whether they were returned?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if the police would have taken someone, you

 6     wouldn't know whether they were returned by the civilian police who had

 7     led them away.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  May I put to you your statement in paragraph 33,

10     which reads:

11             "There were cases when the civilian police took some individuals

12     for interrogation to Omarska, but all of them returned to the Trnopolje

13     reception centre after interrogation."

14             This squarely contradicts what you said a minute ago, that you do

15     not know whether they were returned.  Do you have any explanation for

16     that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I firmly answer, and

18     I speak the truth:  I never stated that they were brought back, that they

19     returned.  I never stated that.  I claim categorically, I know it

20     personally, I was present when the police brought an order to Kuruzovic

21     and when they took those people away.  I never said it in any statement.

22     I never stated that they returned.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I read your own statement to which you

24     attested today that it was, after you had reviewed it, it was the

25     truth --

Page 32881

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken.  Let me see

 2     if I can find this and read it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 33, could it be shown to the witness.

 4             But I'm not engaging in a debate on the matter, Witness.  I just

 5     wanted to draw your attention to the fact that your statement says

 6     something which is squarely contradicting to your testimony today.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I ever stated

 8     that they were brought back.  It may have been a -- a slip of the tongue

 9     or a misprint.  I -- I continue to claim that they were taken away.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, are you aware that today you told us

11     that you had reviewed the statement and that you attested that what you

12     said was reflected well and that you attested that you gave your

13     statement in accordance with the truth and that is what you told us today

14     before we admitted into evidence that statement.

15             When you say it may have been a slip of the tongue, do you mean

16     to say that it's not all the truth, what is in your statement?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just flipped

18     through my statement, and while I was doing that, I -- maybe I didn't not

19     notice that.  I claim that they were taken away, but I did not state that

20     they were brought back.  Some may have been brought back.  I don't know

21     whether all were.  I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you say that you have not carefully read and

23     reviewed your statement before you gave you're attestation today, that it

24     was all in accordance with the truth and well recorded?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I was saying,

Page 32882

 1     because - because - I thought that we would slowly go through the

 2     paragraphs in my statement one by one.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that expectation was not accurate.  I

 4     don't know on what it is based, but Mr. Traldi will now continue his

 5     cross-examination.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, is it your evidence that when -- is it your evidence now

 8     that when Mr. Lukic asked you at temporary transcript page 9, beginning

 9     at line 21:

10             "When you -- or, rather, did you have an opportunity to read your

11     statement and did you make sure that everything was recorded correctly?

12             You answered:

13             "Yes, I just had one little objection," which you later explained

14     was about ensuring the translation was correct.

15             Is it your evidence now that your answer to that question was

16     not, in fact, the truth, that you did not read your statement and make

17     sure everything was recorded correctly in advance of your testimony?

18        A.   At the beginning of the session, at the -- counsel said that

19     there was an objection.  I thought that that had been corrected, and it

20     seems that it wasn't.

21        Q.   You were asked what the objection was.  You told this Court that

22     you'd asked that it be made certain that the interpretation was correct

23     and then swore to your statement.  You swore to a statement that you did

24     not know to be true and that you've now today said contains a number of

25     errors, and you swore that you'd reviewed it and made sure it was correct

Page 32883

 1     when the truth is you did neither of those things.  Right?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I've never been at a trial before, and I thought

 3     that you would go through the statement paragraph by paragraph, and then

 4     I would be asked to say whether something was correct or not.  This is my

 5     first trial ever, so I thought that what mattered was what you were going

 6     ask me, what the Presiding Judge would ask me, what the Defence counsel

 7     would ask me.  I thought that that was important.

 8        Q.   For the moment I'd just ask for an answer to the question I just

 9     asked you, which is that when you testified under oath that you'd

10     reviewed your statement and made sure what was in it was true, in fact,

11     you had not done either of those things; right?

12        A.   Well, it's not that nothing is correct, but what we are looking

13     at now, i.e., that they were brought back, I don't know about that.  I'm

14     sure, and I still claim, that they were taken away, but I don't think

15     that I ever said that they were brought back.  I don't remember that.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see we are at or even slightly past

17     the time for the break.  I'd appreciate having it to reorganise.  I

18     imagine I'll be very brief after it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll take the break now for 20 minutes,

20     and we'll resume at 25 minutes past midday.

21                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.

24                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

Page 32884

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, Mr. President, after reviewing over the

 2     break, I have no further questions for this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

 4             Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will have several questions for

 6     this witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, you were asked earlier today about

11     the logistics base.  I would like to call up 07157.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a P number?

13             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not P number, it's 65 ter number.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Beric, this is a report on the work of the logistics base.

17     The date is 16 September 1992.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the following page,

19     please, in both versions.

20        Q.   At the bottom of the page, you can see --

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we don't have that

22     document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, this is for re-direct.  We did not send it.

25     But I can ask the question.

Page 32885

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, do you know who Mirko Mudrinic was?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What was his position at the logistics base; do you know?

 4        A.   He was an organiser in the logistics base.  He did have a rank,

 5     but I can't remember what it was.  I believe that he was Kuruzovic's

 6     assistant more than anything else.

 7        Q.   You're saying that he was an organiser.  Did you co-operate with

 8     him at the logistics base?

 9        A.   As needed.  If I needed some medical supplies or foodstuffs at

10     the logistics base, he was the one who was involved in all that more than

11     anybody else.

12        Q.   In today's transcript, it was recorded when you testified about

13     your friend Alija who had arrived from Omarska.  It was recorded that he

14     was stark naked.  Did you say that he was naked or stark naked?

15        A.   He was almost naked.  The only thing he had on him were very

16     dirty underpants.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you talk to Kuruzovic and his escorts while you

18     were sitting in the shade of wine, as you put it?  Did you talk to him?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   In those conversations, did anybody mention that Kuruzovic

21     visited Trnopolje during the night?

22        A.   No, never.

23        Q.   At that time, did any of the people you spoke to, Muslims or

24     Serbs, complain about Kuruzovic?  Did anybody say that Kuruzovic had ever

25     raped anybody?

Page 32886

 1        A.   No, never.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P7199.  I don't

 3     know if the representative of the Registry can call up that number.  The

 4     former 65 ter number was 31654.

 5             This is a report on the work of the municipal Red Cross branch in

 6     Prijedor from 5 May to 30 September 1992.  We need page 9 in English and

 7     page 8 in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Talking about this document, you were asked whether there were

 9     any women and children there, whether there were elderly people as well.

10             Now those children, those women and those elderly, were they

11     brought in, as far as you know, or did they come of their own will?  Did

12     they actually ask to be accommodated there?  How did these people arrive

13     in Trnopolje?

14        A.   They came on their own using all sorts of --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The last part of your question is is how the

16     question should have been formulated.  The previous part is leading.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Separately, I'm not entirely sure that the question

19     about how they arrived arises out of my cross.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Still, we think it's very important to establish --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

22             MR. LUKIC:  -- it was established --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But --

24             MR. LUKIC:  -- that there were elderly.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But not by providing an answer before you ask.

Page 32887

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, matters may be important, but the issue

 2     raised by Mr. Traldi, whether it arises from cross-examination, it does

 3     not.  If you say were there any red-haired people there, and to say,

 4     Well, then we have to know everything about red-haired people.  That, of

 5     course, is not touched upon how they arrived by Mr. Traldi, is there?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  But if it's not in dispute, or they claim that

 7     they that were forced, if they claim they were incarcerated --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- they had to be brought there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are not dealing with one witness only.

11     I think that the Prosecution's case in that respect is very clear.  If

12     you only listen to the questions, you know that it is in dispute perhaps,

13     but the arrival, as such, was not addressed in cross-examination.

14             At the same time, it may take more time if you have one or two

15     questions on this, I would say, it's more practical to do that, but from

16     a procedural, legal point of view, you are not entitled to what I allow

17     you, nevertheless, to do at this moment.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then also please be precise in terms of avoiding

20     sweeping statements, because that is of some concern to the Chamber in

21     relation to this witness.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Beric, do you know anything specific or do

24     you know anybody specific and how they arrived in Trnopolje reception

25     centre?

Page 32888

 1        A.   I know a lot about that.  Many came on foot from Prijedor.  And

 2     they continued taking food to their relatives in Prijedor and they

 3     returned.  And I also know that they came in various vehicles.  They used

 4     taxis.  They paid the fare.  There were taxis during the war as well.

 5     And they arrived because they had heard that their departure to a third

 6     country would happen fast.  There was a neighbour of mine and her two

 7     daughters, Ramiza and her daughters Anita and Rita, who paid the taxi

 8     fare and arrived at the reception centre.  When I appeared there around

 9     9.00 or 10.00 and when I saw them, I was taken by surprise.  She toured

10     the reception centre and realised that the conditions would be much

11     better there for her children.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One simple question for you, Witness.  Did it

13     ever happen that people arrived being accompanied by either police or

14     soldiers?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Prijedor, as far as I know,

16     people came of their own will, on foot or by taxi, or by their own

17     vehicle.  I remember just one case when Muslims were collected in

18     Sanski Most and brought over by lorries, and those people left on the

19     same day by train.  They were escorted either by the police or the

20     military.  I don't know who.  I can't remember.  But in any case, a

21     convoy was organised for them on the same day and they left by train.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Were you ever present when people arrived from

25     Omarska and Keraterm escorted by the police; do you remember if any such

Page 32889

 1     thing happened while you were there?

 2        A.   I did not understand your question.

 3        Q.   While you were at Trnopolje, was anybody brought from Omarska or

 4     Keraterm escorted by the police?

 5        A.   Those who had been interrogated and were let go came by buses.  I

 6     suppose that they had escorts.  I didn't see them.  They had been

 7     interrogated and released and they arrived, and from Trnopolje they were

 8     sent to third countries.

 9        Q.   Can I call up P7200.

10        A.   Can I finish what I started telling about my neighbour?

11        Q.   Is that in your statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   It is in your statement, so there's no need to repeat anything

14     from your statement.

15        A.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need P7200.  I don't know if the

17     representative of the Registry can find this document.  It used to be

18     07021b, 65 ter.  This is a report issued by the CSCE mission about

19     detention centres in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We need to look at page 4

20     in both versions.

21        Q.   Mr. Beric, in the second paragraph, line 2, you will see where it

22     says -- in English, it is line 3.  It says:

23             "These people are living in terror and the CSCE mission believe

24     they have substantial reasons for their fear."

25             You told us that your family lived in fear in Prijedor as well.

Page 32890

 1     My question to you is this:  Your conduct and the conduct of the armed

 2     Serbs who were there contributed to the fear of those people.  Why were

 3     they afraid?  What was the cause of their fear?

 4        A.   You know what the reason was?  There was a civil war going on and

 5     it's only natural that everybody should feel afraid.  There is fear in

 6     everyone.  There is poverty, hunger, there is no electricity.  Any normal

 7     person would try to avoid that.  All of us were hungry, without

 8     electricity, and we were wondering what would happen.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Just one more question in relation to today's

10     paragraph -- no, today's transcript, page 46, line 1.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

12        Q.   My colleague Mr. Traldi asked you about the people who were

13     leaving.

14             "... they were leaving on convoys, and the Prijedor police and

15     the VRS assisted them in organising and securing these convoys; right?"

16             And in your answer you said:

17             "Yes, the reserve police."

18             Do you have any knowledge about the VRS, whether the VRS ever

19     escorted these convoys?

20        A.   I don't know about that because very soon I was sent to the front

21     line.  I know that up until then, it was the police that was securing

22     convoys.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Beric.  That's all we had for you.

24        A.   You're welcome.

25                           Questioned by the Court:

Page 32891

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Beric, I have -- before I give an opportunity to

 2     the Prosecution to put any further questions to you.  In your statement

 3     you are telling that you claim that Sejmenovic is not telling the truth

 4     about his stay at Trnopolje, as you said, because you know him

 5     personally.  How do you know what Sejmenovic told this Court about

 6     Trnopolje?

 7        A.   I heard about that.  I heard about that from other people.  I

 8     didn't personally watch his testimony in court, but that's something that

 9     I heard from other people.  However, I can tell you about how come we

10     know each other and how everything happened and --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not interested in that.  I'm primarily

12     interested in how you knew what he had told the Court.  So you haven't

13     watched any testimony given by him?  You have not read any of his

14     statements?

15        A.   Yes, you're right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You -- you did not read those statements.  Did

17     you speak to him personally about his testimony in this Court?

18        A.   I didn't talk to him about the testimony.  We didn't see each

19     other.  We're good acquaintances, friends.  Sivac was his best friend and

20     he often came to see him.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether what he told this Court is the truth or

22     not, you've got no idea because you don't know what he told this Court?

23        A.   Well, yes, I'd like to know what it was that he said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine, but you commented on it already

25     without knowing what it was.  I have no further questions in relation to

Page 32892

 1     that.

 2             Are you -- Nusret Sivac, do you know whether and, if so, what

 3     evidence he gave to this Court?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I didn't watch it directly.  I just know what he

 5     wrote in the book.  And he turned it into a business.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 7             Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you as well.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Beric, earlier today, you said - and this is

 9     on page 16, line 13 and 14 - you talked about this skinny man which

10     was -- who was depicted in this photograph we talked about.  And you

11     said:  "I must say, that I'm sorry to have heard that he died recently."

12     When did you hear that?

13        A.   A few days ago.  A few days ago.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what did you hear precisely?  When did he

15     die?

16        A.   Well, allegedly, it was recent.  The last couple of months or

17     something.  I have no idea.  I heard that from the neighbours out there.

18     Now whether it's true, I cannot say.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What do you mean by "the neighbours out there"?

20        A.   Well, people who live in the nearby villages.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you hear that in the street or by -- in a

22     cafe or did anybody specifically tell you about that?

23        A.   In the street.  You know what it's like.  People live together

24     again.  What happened, happened.  People co-operate.  They work together,

25     Muslims and Serbs, and every day there are --

Page 32893

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That's all.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Beric, this concludes your evidence in this

 5     Court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the place of the --

 6     the location of the videolink.  I also thank you for having answered

 7     questions that were put to you by the parties and put to you by the

 8     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused.

11             Madam Registrar, at the other side of the videolink, is there

12     any -- perhaps we first allow the witness to leave the videolink room.

13                           [Witness withdrew via videolink]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that the next

15     witness would not be available.  Is that true?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Next witness from yesterday would be available.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the next witness for the videolink.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Next witness for the videolink, we could not

19     anticipate that we would finish this early so we called only those two

20     for today for videolink.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that means that he is expected to start

22     his testimony tomorrow.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Tomorrow morning, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar at the other side of the

25     videolink, we do understand that there's no witness available at this

Page 32894

 1     moment to continue hearing evidence through this videolink but that we

 2     would resume tomorrow morning.  Is that the same information that you

 3     have?

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] That's correct, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, at this moment, we can close the --

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours next videolink

 7     witness -- the next one is ready for tomorrow morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow

 9     morning at 9.30 not in this -- yes, for you in that same courtroom

10     through videolink.

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And we can close the videolink for the time being.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we can continue the cross-examination of

15     the last witness.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, just before it gets lost if we could

17     handle the matter regarding MFI P7198.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask that we move into private session for

20     it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32895











11  Page 32895 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32896

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             Mr. Lukic, an update on, I think, five expert reports.  Two

16     ballistics, one historical, one forensic pathologist, and one radio

17     communications.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We hope that ballistics experts could be finally

19     filed by the end of the next week.  And we are awaiting the translations

20     for historical expert and pathologist.  Hopefully tomorrow it could be --

21     we hope that tomorrow that this pathologist expertise could translated.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you provided the original versions already to

23     the Prosecution?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Hmm?

25             Maybe Ms. Stewart knows, because it's up to our case manager.

Page 32897

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you send them for translation?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  That I don't know.  Tomorrow one should be done

 3     probably a couple of weeks ago.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Isn't it that you would always provide the

 5     original versions to the other party already since you are so much in

 6     delay?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'd been standing up.  None of us had recalled

10     seeing them, and I was just going ask to assist us in checking our

11     records for the names of the witnesses that Mr. Lukic had in mind.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And if not, we'll send it today, I promise that.  And

13     on the 18th of March, the translation for historian expert should be

14     finalised [Overlapping speakers]...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have the names of your experts?  Or if you

16     would send an e-mail to the Prosecution.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Pathologist is Dunjic.  I know that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I'm a bit concerned if I hear that

19     possibly you have not given the original versions, and I think that it

20     was what was as a provisional remedy agreed upon, that at least if you

21     have any report ready awaiting translation that you already send the

22     original to the Prosecution to the -- and if that doesn't happen, then --

23     it doesn't take that much time, I would think.  It requires some

24     attention to what is done.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 32898

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I didn't hear any update on the radio

 2     communications expert.  We had asked the Defence if they objected to us a

 3     short interview of such an expert to get an idea of what he may be

 4     testifying about, and we await your reply on that, and especially that we

 5     haven't seen any report or any word of any report.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you ask to have an opportunity to interview

 7     the expert?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it was a week or two ago, something like

 9     that.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Friday.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Friday two weeks ago or last Friday?

12             MR. IVETIC:  My recollection is last Friday since I spoke with

13     Mr. McCloskey on the telephone.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any objection against ...

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. IVETIC:  It hasn't been resolved because we have not received

17     word back from the communications expert, and we also have not received

18     his report, although that the Belgrade office tells me that they expect

19     his report to be done by next week, and then it can be sent for

20     translation.  As soon as we get the B/C/S report, we can provide that to

21     the Prosecution.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the question also was whether the

23     Prosecution could interview that expert.  Apparently that's how I

24     understood your request to the Defence as expressed.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, and I transferred that request to

Page 32899

 1     Belgrade to communicate to the radio communications expert.  I have not

 2     heard back in relation to that, and I don't know that my colleagues have

 3     either.  I think looking back here, they have not.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it the expert who decides on that or is it the

 5     Defence who approves an interview?  And is there any property in a

 6     witness?  That's, of course, the question that arises.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, it's not the expert who -- you were asked whether you

 8     oppose your expert to be interviewed by the Prosecution.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And I relayed that request to my lead counsel,

10     Your Honour.  I can't speak with authority on matters that I'm not --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ask now your lead counsel what his position is.

12     He is sitting next to you, so communication shouldn't be a major problem.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  The instructions I'm getting in the courtroom right

17     now are that as far as we're concerned we don't have a problem with the

18     proposal, but we can't speak on behalf of the witness since we have not

19     heard back since we communicated that request to him.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you're willing to give the details for

21     communication to the Prosecution so that they can approach him?

22             MR. IVETIC:  They should already have that, but I can check on

23     that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that will be resolved.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 32900

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then there's one other matter remaining; that

 2     is, we were informed that the parties had agreed on how to proceed this

 3     week.  I don't know whether that is covered by the information that

 4     Mr. Subotic would resume his testimony today and that after the

 5     videolink, then if it has not been finished, we would continue with, if I

 6     could say, The Hague witnesses.  Is that your agreement?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  That is, Your Honours, and that is the preliminary

 8     matter that we were ready to raise before which delayed to have the

 9     videolink start.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  Then I suggest that we ...

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That we take a break now, that we will resume at 25

13     minutes past 1.00, and that we'll then further hear the testimony of

14     Mr. Subotic.

15             We take a break.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll now continue with hearing the evidence of

19     Mr. Subotic.  Could he be escorted in the courtroom.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If my recollection serves me well, we're about to

22     start the cross-examination.  That's where we are.

23             Ms. Hasan.

24             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 32901

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd first like to explain to you why you are with us

 5     in court only today again for a relatively short period of time.  That is

 6     because we also hear evidence from witnesses who are far away, we hear

 7     them through a videolink, and for the technical requirements we

 8     unfortunately have to give priority to that, which then may not be very

 9     pleasant for you.  I hope you have some understanding for that.

10             Mr. Subotic, I'd first like to remind you that you're still bound

11     by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your

12     testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

13     the truth.  And I then inform you that you'll now be cross-examined by

14     Ms. Hasan.  You'll find Ms. Hasan to your right.  Ms. Hasan is counsel

15     for the Prosecution.

16             Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.

17                           WITNESS: BOJAN SUBOTIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Your commander, Major Zoran Malinic, what was he commonly known

23     as?  What was his nickname?

24        A.   I think it was Zoran Zoka.  That's the usual way in which Zorans

25     are addressed.  We addressed him by rank, we, the soldiers.  And then

Page 32902

 1     there were friends of his who would come to see him.  Zoki, Zole, Zoka.

 2     So that's the usual nicknames for that particular name.

 3        Q.   Now you recall testifying yesterday about Muslims who were

 4     killing other Muslims that wanted to surrender.  And what I'd like to ask

 5     you is did you report that information that you received to your

 6     commander, Malinic?

 7        A.   Through some report everyday; that is to say, every time I went

 8     out on patrol and when I'd come back, every time a report is filed, an

 9     Official Note, and at the same time I inform the commander.  And this was

10     very fast, everything that happened at the stadium.  I received this

11     information and the people who had been taken prisoner said that that had

12     happened.  I could not confirm that to him because I didn't see that

13     myself, what it was that had happened.  What happened to these people.

14        Q.   Besides filing official reports, or notes as you mention, you

15     kept Zoran Malinic informed of what was transpiring?

16        A.   Well, that day we saw each other about two or three time, and it

17     had to do with radio communication.

18        Q.   And you made -- you made Zoran Malinic aware that there were

19     wounded amongst the prisoners who surrendered, didn't you?

20        A.   I think I said that to Petrovic because I asked him for a

21     vehicle.  Malinic hadn't appeared by then.  Well, maybe he did, but I

22     can't say for sure.

23        Q.   Let's take a look at P1415.  What you're about to see is an

24     intercepted communication.  It's from the 13th of July at 10.09 hours in

25     the morning.  And I'm not going to work through the entire communication,

Page 32903

 1     but it begins between Beara and Lucic and then continues between a Zoka

 2     and Beara.

 3             And it's -- we can turn in the English to page 2.  And it's our

 4     position that Zoka is Zoran Malinic, commander of the military police of

 5     the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

 6             And the part of the conversation I want to focus on is the --

 7     when Zoka gets on the line.

 8             MS. HASAN:  And if we could turn to page 5 in the B/C/S, please.

 9     And if we can look at -- you see towards the bottom there, you see 500.

10     If we can just turn the page in the English.

11        Q.   And just towards the top of the page there in the English, Zoka

12     reports to Beara that there are about 500.

13             MS. HASAN:  Could we turn the B/C/S one page, please.

14        Q.   And Zoka says, just a little bit further down in the English:

15             "Well, here, it's ... they're killing themselves ... there are

16     also plenty of wounded ..."

17             And I believe we have to turn to page 7 in the B/C/S.  And Beara

18     says:

19             "You mean they're doing it amongst themselves?"

20             Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, the conversation continues, but it's not heard very well

23     what Zoka says.  And then Zoka says:

24             "... they're killing...."

25             Beara says:

Page 32904

 1             "Well, excellent.  Just let them continue, fuck it."

 2             You see that?

 3        A.   I see that.

 4        Q.   And that information that Zoka is passing onto Beara accurately

 5     reflects what was taking place at the time and what had you reported to

 6     Malinic; is that right?

 7        A.   Well, I don't see that this is Malinic.  Zoka can be whoever.  I

 8     did report to my commander via radio communication that I had come across

 9     this group of people who had unfortunately been killed, whatever else

10     happened, but I did not report to him about anything else.  And who this

11     was that was talking to Beara, I really cannot say to you.

12        Q.   Well, sir, I'm going to tell you that there's evidence in this

13     days that Malinic who -- testified that he spoke to Beara on the 13th of

14     July at about 10.15 in the morning.  And so I'll ask you again:  The

15     information that is Zoran Malinic is providing to Beara is, in fact, what

16     you had testified to yesterday, was it not?

17        A.   Well, there's a coincidence.  I don't know what my commander had

18     to say to the chief of security and vice versa.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.  By approximately 2.00 p.m. that day, there

20     were more than a thousand people at the football stadium at Nova Kasaba;

21     is that right?

22        A.   Yes, something like that.  About a thousand or 11- or 1200,

23     thereabouts.

24        Q.   And Muslim men continued to surrender after that time; isn't that

25     right?

Page 32905

 1        A.   The -- most surrendered in the morning before noon and later they

 2     surrendered in groups of five or ten.  In smaller numbers.  The larger

 3     contingent of those who surrendered, some 2- or 300 of them, surrendered

 4     during the morning before 1.00 or half past 1.00.  I can't remember

 5     exactly, but that was approximately the time.

 6        Q.   And, sir, by the afternoon around 4.00 p.m., 5.00 p.m., you

 7     wouldn't dispute that there were approximately 1500 prisoners gathered at

 8     that stadium, would you?

 9        A.   When you say "1500," that's 1.500; right?

10        Q.   That's correct.

11        A.   No, I don't think that there as many as that.  All in all, there

12     were about 1200.  It's very hard to say.  We counted head up to 3- or 400

13     and then we stopped.  There was a list but that list was never completed.

14     In any case, there were not as many as 1500.  There were fewer of them.

15             MS. HASAN:  Could we take a look at P1280.  And this is an

16     under-seal document.

17        Q.   What you're about to see, Witness --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the number again?

19             MS. HASAN:  P01280.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. HASAN:

22        Q.   This is an intercept from the 13th of July.  And in the B/C/S, we

23     can turn the page to see the communication between X and Y at 1602.

24             And it starts off by saying this is mostly -- X says:

25             "This is mostly it.  I called 394.  I've got an extension down in

Page 32906

 1     Kasaba, my own."

 2             Now 394, that was the extension used to reach Malinic; isn't that

 3     right?

 4        A.   I really can't remember the extension number.  It was some 20

 5     years ago.  I can't say that it wasn't or that it was.  It's really

 6     impossible for me to remember the extension number.  I -- I don't think

 7     you should be asking me that in the first place.

 8        Q.   Well, let's see if I can help you.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Could we look at 65 ter 05923a, please.

10        Q.   So this is the VRS phonebook.  It's dated August 1995.  And we

11     have an excerpt of it at page 2.  And if you look towards the bottom of

12     the page in the B/C/S, and in the English, can you see where it says:

13     "Commander of the Military Police Battalion," just under the heading

14     65th Protection Motorised Regiment.  You see a phone number, and below it

15     you see an extension, 394.  Do you have any reason to dispute that this

16     is accurate?

17        A.   I can see where it says the battalion commander of the military

18     police, but I don't see what commander, what battalion, and I don't see a

19     stamp or a signature to see who was it who approved this document.  But I

20     can see all that written.

21             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 05923a into evidence.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would object in so far as the

23     witness is unable to authentic the information contained therein and has

24     no personal knowledge, as he said he does not remember.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if documents are related to matters which

Page 32907

 1     are the subject of examination of the witness, we usually do not wait

 2     until -- there we have whole bunch of documents on the bar table.  Is

 3     there any further objection against this to be admitted into evidence;

 4     that is, Mr. Ivetic?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Well, as to the bar table, the Prosecution has not

 6     made a submission.  Pursuant to bar table jurisprudence, once we receive

 7     such submission we will respond to it in kind, but we have not received

 8     provenance information, we have not received --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you know, it's not the first time, Mr. Ivetic,

10     I think it happens very, very often, that in this context that we would

11     decide on admission right away.  So if you have any objection against

12     admission of this document at this moment, please.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I do.  I've made my objection on the record.  And

14     unless the Prosecution makes any further submissions -- I cannot object

15     in a vacuum, Your Honours.  I believe Your Honours' guidance as to bar

16     table -- I believe Your Honours' guidance as to bar table submissions has

17     been that they should be timed prior to the conclusion of the Prosecution

18     case.  If the Prosecution --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, this is now the sixth or the seventh or

20     the eighth time that you just ignore what we have done practically so

21     often in this courtroom that if there's any document which is directly

22     related to what a witness tell us about, that we would considered

23     admission after having heard the parties.  So you're again invited to

24     tell us whether under Rule 87, I think it is, whether there's any

25     objection against admission of this document.

Page 32908

 1             But perhaps, Ms. Hasan, if you would first tell us where it comes

 2     from.

 3             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, this was seized in 2006 from the Kozara

 4     barracks in Banja Luka.  That's part of the VRS collection -- archives.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it is a printed copy.  It looks very much

 6     as if it is, but ... this is just print, not typewritten, or don't you

 7     know?  It looks very much like print.

 8             MS. HASAN:  I -- I mean, I don't know if this is typewritten or

 9     printed.  It appears to me to be printed.  It was -- we actually have the

10     entire telephone book.  We've just excerpted out a page of it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we saw the cover page which very much looked

12     like not typewritten but printed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have we received any other excerpts of this

14     telephone book previously?

15             MS. HASAN:  Well, my recollection is that I used an excerpt of

16     this telephone book with Milenko Todorovic during his examination.  I

17     recall that I did offer that into evidence, there was a -- an objection

18     on the basis of the date of the telephone book, and my recollection is -

19     and I can go back and check this - that the parties agreed that this was

20     a telephone book from August 1995 that -- as it's presented on the cover

21     of this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this information.

23             Mr. Ivetic, again, if there's anything you would like to submit

24     at this moment in relation to admission of this document before the

25     Chamber considers whether or not to admit or even perhaps postpone its

Page 32909

 1     decision.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I have nothing further to add apart from what I've

 3     already said.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to the

 6     document.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document would receive number

 8     P7201.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

10             Ms. Hasan, if you could provide us with the -- with the details

11     of the information you gave us from the top of your head, then that would

12     be appreciated.  When do you think?  Two days would be enough?

13             MS. HASAN:  Yes, certainly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if you feel any need to make further

15     submissions, you have an opportunity to do so during the next two days as

16     well.

17             Please continue, Ms. Hasan.

18             MS. HASAN:  Could we go back then to P01280.  And, again, this

19     should not be broadcast.  Page 2 of the B/C/S, please.

20        Q.   So the communication between X and Y continues, and X says in the

21     third line:

22             "Where Malinic's unit is.  They said that there are 1.500

23     gathered at the statement [sic]."

24             Y says:

25             "What?"

Page 32910

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, "stadium."

 2             MS. HASAN:  I'm sorry.  Thank you, Your Honour.  "Stadium."

 3             Y:

 4             "What?"

 5             X:

 6             "There are 1.500 at the stadium in Kasaba.  Fuck it.  The duty

 7     officer down there said that.  We probably won't let anything get by.

 8     There are more of them ... that hasn't finished ..."

 9             And then there's some interference.

10             MR. IVETIC:  If I can note, the B/C/S does not appear to

11     correlate to this page.  Oh, now it is.  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it looks to us very much -- it is now.

13             Witness, you can -- what was just read to you, you can read it

14     again at the last portion of what is before you now.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:

18        Q.   So they're discussing the number of -- numbers gathered at the

19     stadium where Malinic's unit is.  That would be Nova Kasaba; right?

20     That's where you were?

21        A.   I was in Nova Kasaba.  And the battalion of the military police

22     was there, I was its member.  Malinic was indeed the commander of that

23     battalion; however, I'm not familiar with this conversation.  I don't

24     know who X was, who Y was.  I really can't comment upon this conversation

25     at all.

Page 32911

 1        Q.   The information that's being relayed between these two

 2     individuals at around 4.00 p.m., do you have -- do you have reason to

 3     dispute the numbers being reported there?

 4        A.   What I would dispute here or what my personal opinion about this

 5     is, I don't know the situation.  However, if we are talking about my

 6     battalion, about my unit, then I would dispute this number.  I don't

 7     think that there were 1500 people.  I'm not sure.  I was there all the

 8     time.  I even escorted the prisoners to Bratunac.  There were about 1200

 9     prisoners.  That would be my assessment in lay terms.

10        Q.   So let's move on, then, to your escort of these prisoners.  And

11     just so that we are very, very clear:  General Mladic issued the order to

12     escort the prisoners from Nova Kasaba to the Vuk Karadzic school in

13     Bratunac; that's correct?

14        A.   Yes, General Mladic personally issued the order to my commander.

15     I was there when the order was being issued to him, and we complied with

16     the order.  This is exactly what we did.

17        Q.   It was also General Mladic who told you -- who told you and

18     Malinic that the buses and trucks would arrive at the football field for

19     the transportation of those prisoners.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.  He said that in about an hour some buses were supposed to

21     arrive.  Some vehicles, some lorries.  He would personally see to that

22     and made sure that it was all organised.  I don't know how he did that.

23     In any case, he promised that the transportation means would arrive and

24     that did happen.  They, indeed, did arrive.

25        Q.   You understood, then, that General Mladic had ordered the

Page 32912

 1     organisation of the transportation for this purpose; correct?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Misstates the evidence of the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Ms. Hasan is not stating the evidence of the

 4     witness but she's asking a question to the witness as a follow-up to the

 5     previous question.

 6             Could you please answer the question, Mr. Subotic.

 7             The question was whether you understood that General Mladic had

 8     ordered the organisation of the transportation for this purpose, whether

 9     that is correct.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that buses would

11     arrive.  I don't know whether he issued an order to that effect, whether

12     he approached somebody from the civilian authorities.  I don't know.  In

13     any case, those were civilian buses.  I was there when General Mladic

14     promised that those buses and other vehicles should arrive within an hour

15     and should be at the football pitch.

16             I don't know where the information came from, whether he issued

17     that order.  He was the commander of the Main Staff, so it -- it was

18     really impossible for me to know what the commander ordered.  I was not

19     directly subordinated to him.  He was in command of the entire army.  I

20     myself was subordinated to the battalion commander who was my direct

21     supervisor.

22             MS. HASAN:  Could we take look at 65 ter 32163.

23        Q.   And, Witness, as that comes up, you recall testifying in the

24     Popovic case as a witness for the Defence?  And this was on the 1st of

25     September, 2008.

Page 32913

 1        A.   Of course, yes.

 2        Q.   And you were called as a witness for the Beara Defence; is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You told the truth during your testimony?

 6        A.   Yes, and again today.

 7             MS. HASAN:  So could we turn to e-court page 35, please.

 8        Q.   Mr. Subotic, this is a portion -- a transcript of your testimony

 9     in that case, and I will read to you from line 9:

10             "If I understand you well, General Mladic was the one who issued

11     the order for the transport to be organised from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac,

12     wouldn't that be correct?

13             "A.  Yes.  And when it came to escorting prisoners of war, he was

14     the one who issued the order, and as far as I could understand, he was

15     the one to issue all other orders for the transport to be organised."

16             Do you stand by the testimony you gave in the Popovic case?

17        A.   Yes, I stand by -- by it.  I repeated just a while ago that the

18     commander of the Main Staff issued all orders.  And now as to who he had

19     arranged the transport with, I don't know that.  He told us that we

20     should escort the prisoners to Bratunac when buses and lorries arrived.

21     I don't know who he had spoken to and made the arrangements about that.

22     I don't know.

23        Q.   And isn't it the case, Mr. Subotic, that Mladic, General Mladic,

24     told you in Bratunac -- told you that in Bratunac everything will be

25     organised?  Isn't that the case?

Page 32914

 1        A.   General Mladic said that to my commander, not me.

 2             As a matter of fact, I was there.  I was present.  He was looking

 3     at both of us.  But as a rule that order should have been issued to my

 4     commander who, in turn, should have issued the order to me.  So, yes, can

 5     you interpret the whole situation as if the order had been issued to me

 6     as well because I was there.

 7        Q.   I'm going to move onto the events or what transpired at the

 8     Nova Kasaba stadium, and you were yesterday asked about a prisoner being

 9     shot at the stadium, and the testimony is transcript page 32826.  And,

10     well, your commander Malinic was asked the same question in the Tolimir

11     case, and I'm going to read to you his response.

12             MS. HASAN:  Could we see P1555, please.  And this will be e-court

13     page 71.

14        Q.   And we see a question is put to Mr. Malinic about whether he had

15     been made aware of or heard or saw any abuses of prisoners at the

16     Nova Kasaba stadium.  And in particular, whether he heard that one of the

17     prisoners was shot and killed there at the stadium.

18             If we turn to page 72, at line 3, Malinic provides an answer, and

19     he says:

20             "And as for killings, the killing of one prisoner, this is

21     something I heard of.  And it did happen at the stadium when the prisoner

22     attacked a soldier who was a member of the Military Police Battalion."

23             He goes on to say:

24             "That was the only instance when someone lost his life, but it

25     wasn't at anyone's whim.  It was a question of self-defence."

Page 32915

 1             Now, Major Malinic heard about a prisoner being shot relating to

 2     an incidence involving a member of your police unit at the field.  You

 3     must have heard of this, sir, or seen it yourself.  Isn't that the truth?

 4     You were amongst those MPs at the field.  Or do you claim that

 5     Major Malinic was not telling the truth?

 6        A.   Not for a single moment did I say that Major Malinic was not

 7     telling the truth.  The Military Police Battalion was a strong force, and

 8     I base that information on my unit of six or seven men that I commanded.

 9     This the first time I hear that a battalion of military police was -- or

10     a military policeman was attacked by a policemen.

11             In the Popovic case they did ask me about that murder.  I don't

12     know anything about that because there were other military policemen

13     there from the battalion.  I never heard a story like that.  I can see

14     from the document that Major Malinic also heard about that but he did not

15     witness the situation himself.  You have to ask him who he heard it from.

16     I didn't.

17             I've never heard before that a military policeman was attacked.

18     I hear the first time from you.  I moved around a lot on that day.  I was

19     not at the stadium all the time.  I was there from the moment

20     General Mladic arrived to the moment when the prisoners were taken away

21     by buses and I escorted them to Bratunac.  On that day, I was out on a

22     mission with the armoured vehicle of the military police.  My radius of

23     movement was 600 metres to a kilometre.  I even went to Milici to fetch

24     bread on one occasion.  That may have happened, but I really didn't hear

25     before that a military policeman was attacked.

Page 32916

 1             And as for the murder you mentioned yesterday and that was

 2     mentioned to me in my last appearance before the Court, I don't know

 3     anything about that.  Of my six men whose commander I was, nobody was

 4     attacked.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you slow down, please.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   Did you have anything more to say?

 8        A.   That's all.  It is possible but I don't know anything about that.

 9     I didn't do it, none of my men did it.  The police battalion was huge.

10     Various sorts of assistance arrived on that day.  You have to talk to

11     Major Malinic and ask him who he heard that from.  I never heard of an

12     attack against the military policemen.  I heard from your questions that

13     something like that did happen.  As far as I am concerned, the prisoners

14     co-operated with me.  If they hadn't, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Subotic, there's no reason to tell Ms. Hasan

16     whom she should ask a certain question.  Please just answer the questions

17     that are put to you.

18             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

19             MS. HASAN:

20        Q.   You just mentioned there were various sorts of assistance that

21     arrived on that day.  Who -- who arrived that day?  Besides your unit,

22     who was there at the stadium?

23        A.   I spoke about my unit, about the battalion of military police of

24     the 65th Protection Regiment.  There were four military police companies.

25     One was an anti-terrorist component.  There was a company of armoured

Page 32917

 1     vehicles.  And our units arrived from Crna Rijeka and from all over the

 2     place to assist us.  I did not have in mind all other VRS units.  I just

 3     had in mind our own battalion units, all of us military policemen.

 4        Q.   Let's move on.  At paragraph 28 of your statement, Witness, you

 5     discuss press teams that were at the Nova Kasaba stadium, and you

 6     specifically mention one crew which you say was from the Serbian

 7     television SRNA.  And you don't mention in your statement that there was,

 8     together with the military officers, who were also filming what was going

 9     on.  But that's the case, isn't it?

10        A.   I mentioned that TV SRNA television, Radio Srpska.  I remember

11     that because I gave them an interview.  And members of the military --

12     well, look members of the military.  I mean, people were in uniform.  I

13     think they were from the press centre of the Army of Republika Srpska.

14     They were carrying cameras.  It's possible that they were cameramen.

15     Probably they were since they were recording this.  But what I remember

16     is radio television of Republika Srpska from SRNA because I gave them an

17     interview there at the stadium.  That's why I remember them.

18        Q.   And have you ever seen that recorded footage of the prisoners at

19     Nova Kasaba or of you giving an interview?  Have you ever seen that

20     footage?

21        A.   Well, no, to tell you the truth.  I did ask for that.  I had some

22     friends up there, a journalist, Goran Malnaga, to go through the archives

23     and to find this for me.  However, he never managed to find that.  I

24     would really like that to happen.  I'd really like to have it found.

25     There were Muslim prisoners there too, and they confirmed everything I

Page 32918

 1     said during that interview.  But they never managed to find that for me.

 2     Now what happened to this, I don't know.  Probably it's somewhere in the

 3     archives of that television.  I really don't know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, we have to finish exactly in time, so

 5     therefore this would be your last question.

 6             MS. HASAN:  May I pose one more question and then I --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One more question, please.

 8             MS. HASAN:

 9        Q.   Witness, we, in our investigations, have been looking for this

10     footage for many, many, many years, several years, and we haven't found a

11     trace of it, either with SRNA or the VRS press centre.  Do you know or

12     have any information about what happened to this footage?

13        A.   Well, really, I don't know.  I would also like to have it found,

14     that interview of mine because --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you told us before.  You say you don't

16     know.  I think that's an answer to the question, Ms. Hasan, or would you

17     like to have any further specifics?

18             MS. HASAN:  Only if he has more information.  But otherwise, if

19     he has no information, then that's fine.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You don't know anything more about that

21     footage, where it went, in whose hands it is?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.  No, no, no.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll adjourn for the day.

24             And, Mr. Subotic, again tomorrow we'll start with the videolink

25     testimony, so I'm afraid that you will have to have some more patience

Page 32919

 1     tomorrow as well.  I don't even know whether we could resume tomorrow

 2     with you, and otherwise it would be the day after tomorrow.  You'll be

 3     updated by the Victims and Witness Section.

 4             I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

 5     with whomever about your testimony, whether already given or still to be

 6     given.  You may follow the usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, now that the witness has left the

10     courtroom, when you intervened and said that the question by Ms. Hasan

11     misstates the evidence, that was an inappropriate objection.  The witness

12     who in his statement said again and again that General Mladic said that

13     buses would arrive, et cetera, answered to one of the previous questions

14     of Ms. Hasan showing a further commitment by saying:

15             "... he promised that the transportation means would arrive and

16     that did happen," and: "He would personally see to that and made sure

17     that it was all organised."

18             This is a commitment going further than the evidence we find in

19     his statement.  And if Ms. Hasan put a follow-up question on that, it

20     should not have been objected to in the way you did it because that could

21     be understood as a signal by someone that the organisation of the

22     transportation is not what the Defence would like to hear and would

23     misstate the evidence.

24             It was inappropriate and inadmissible.  We -- I leave it to that.

25             We'll resume --

Page 32920

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, objections are never admissible or

 2     inadmissible.  Objections are made and are ruled upon.  I take exception

 3     to your classification.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  They can be inappropriate.  Anything done by counsel

 5     which is inappropriate - for that only reason - is inadmissible.  Not in

 6     terms of criminal procedure but just something that is not acceptable, if

 7     my language is clear enough.

 8             We'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow, 9.30 in the

 9     morning, at -- the 11th of March in this same courtroom.

10             We stand adjourned.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

13                           March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.