Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32921

 1                           Wednesday, 11 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom and also to the videolink courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I do understand that there are a few preliminary matters to be

12     dealt with first before we start the videolink and before we invite the

13     witness to be escorted into that videolink room.

14             Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

16             We have actually two short preliminary matters.  First is that we

17     anticipate that tomorrow we might need a bit more time with the witness

18     who should finish his videolink tomorrow, so it could be that we'll need

19     maybe half an hour longer than usually.

20             And the second is --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Half an hour in addition to what, exactly?  Going

22     beyond quarter past 2.00, or half an hour beyond what you had estimated?

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, going beyond quarter past 2.00.  I'm not

24     asking for any additional except this hour I already asked for.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we'll see --

Page 32922

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And I'll try to cut it down also to be -- only I have

 2     to introduce four documents with this witness at the beginning as

 3     non-associated exhibits, that's why I'm cautious and ask for a bit more

 4     time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  That's for tomorrow?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to go beyond quarter past 2.00.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And how about Mr. Mladic's presence?  And --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic waives his right to be present tomorrow.

12     He has visit and he -- that's the second preliminary.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You say that's for the whole of the day?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We also could consider if Mr. Mladic is not present

16     to start at 9.00 and then to -- because I have to, of course, to check

17     with everyone whether no agendas are filled after quarter past 2.00.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I can inform you that the Defence does not have any

19     problem with starting at 9.00.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's just have a look.  We'll consider then

21     half an hour extra tomorrow, still to be decided whether we start at 9.00

22     or whether we go beyond quarter past 2.00.

23             If the Prosecution is already in a position to give its views on

24     that.

25             MR. TRALDI:  We would have no problem with either schedule, and

Page 32923

 1     like Mr. Lukic I'll attempt to be efficient tomorrow.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let me see.

 3             Then, of course, it needs some organisation which is primarily in

 4     the hands of Madam Registrar.  We'll hear from her soon after she has

 5     consulted the interested parties, and I'll consult with my colleagues as

 6     well.

 7             Any other matter, Mr. Lukic?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Not for now, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there was an issue to be raised by the

10     Prosecution as well.  But if it's not urgent, we could also leave it to a

11     later point in time.  I see that the Prosecution would save it for -- as

12     you say, save it for a rainy day, but ...

13             Then let's just check whether the videolink is functioning well.

14             Madam Registrar at the far end of our videolink, can you hear us,

15     can you see it?

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

17     hereby confirm that we can see you and we can hear you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think the sound quality is such that --

19     although not perfect, still workable.

20             Could you tell us who is present in the videolink room?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself

22     there is a ICTY technical support officer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

24     courtroom.

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Technical support officer.  Yes,

Page 32924

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I must see that I've seen videolink images which

 3     were better, but -- and the sound is not the best I've heard in my life,

 4     but I invite the parties to intervene whenever they think that the

 5     quality falls below acceptable stands.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But the microphone is switched off at your end,

 8     Madam Registrar, but perhaps that's for escorting the witness into the

 9     videolink room.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness before you give evidence, the Rules require

13     that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole

14     truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you.

15     May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV DELIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           [Witness testified via videolink]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  I'm also addressing the

22     interpreters' booth, whether the quality is sufficient to work with?  And

23     I get a signal that it is not.

24             Therefore, could we get the assistance necessary.  And it may

25     that be while the witness is standing that he's too far off from the

Page 32925

 1     microphone, so could we do another test.

 2             Madam Registrar, could you --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is a delay in the

 4     sound.  There's a delay in the sound.  There's overlapping of syllables.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can you hear us?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please sit down, Madam Registrar, so

 7     that we have more or less the same situation as if the witness is

 8     speaking while being seated.

 9             Could you again?

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  Can you hear us

11     now?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think that the quality is not good enough.

13     I get a signal from our interpreters that we should not work on this

14     basis.

15             Perhaps it is a matter of reinstating the connection because it

16     seems that it's not a local problem but rather a relay problem.

17             I suggest that we'll break off the existing communication, try to

18     re-establish it, because the same is true, by the way, for the images.

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can you hear us now?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Sometimes.  Not always.

21             I suggest that the videolink will be ended and that it will be

22     restarted again.

23             We take a break of five minutes for that purpose.  We'll resume

24     at ten minutes to 10.00.

25                            --- Break taken at 9.43 a.m.

Page 32926

 1                            --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I see on my screen that the microphone is switched

 3     off at the other side of the videolink.

 4             Madam Registrar, could you switch it -- it's on now again.

 5             Can he hear us?  Can you see us?  And this is a question both to

 6     Madam Registrar and to the witness.

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  We can hear you

 8     and we can see you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- I put on the record that it is still not

10     a perfect link, and I invite both the booth and the parties to address me

11     when they consider that they cannot work on the basis of the quality we

12     have at this moment.

13             Witness, I just remind you that the -- you've given a solemn

14     declaration that was given by you, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

15     truth, and nothing but the truth.  That was received and interpreted.  So

16     we'll now start your examination.  You'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

17     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Delic.

22        A.   Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

23        Q.   For the record, could you please slowly state your name and

24     surname.

25        A.   Tomislav Delic.  Father's name Gojko.

Page 32927

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones in

 2     the courtroom please be switched off, thank you, when the witness is

 3     speaking.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D1729, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1D?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  1729.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Delic, there's a document on the screen

 8     before you.  Can you see it?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   On this page, do you see a signature and do you recognise it?

11        A.   Yes, I see it.  It's mine.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at the last page of

14     the document.

15        Q.   Do you see the signature there?  Do you recognise it?

16        A.   Yes, it's mine.

17        Q.   Mr. Delic, at one moment -- actually, on two occasions did you

18     give a statement to the members of General Mladic's Defence team?

19        A.   I didn't understand you.  Did I give what?

20        Q.   A statement.

21        A.   I gave the statement that is here, with that signature.

22        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to look at the statement; and what is

23     written in the statement, is it recorded correctly?

24        A.   Yes, yes, and it's correct.  However, there are some minor

25     points, probably typing errors, things like that.

Page 32928

 1        Q.   Is there something that you'd like to correct in this statement?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

 3     witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I have nothing to change in

 6     this signed statement.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   What you said and what is written in this statement, is it

 9     correct and true?

10        A.   Absolutely.

11        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give

12     me the same answers?

13        A.   I'd give the same answers, but I don't know if the word order

14     would be the same.  I mean -- but the answer would be the same.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Delic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we would tender this statement into

17     evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections by the Prosecution.

19             Therefore, Madam Registrar, the number would be.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1729 receives number D929.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D929 is admitted.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we will not have any questions for this

23     witness.  I'll just read the statement summary.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Delic, Tomislav will testify about the

Page 32929

 1     establishment of political parties in the area of Sanski Most.  He will

 2     also explain the situation in the municipality immediately before the

 3     war.

 4             Mr. Delic will explain his role in the efforts to calm down the

 5     situation.  Despite these efforts, the very next day the Muslim active

 6     and reserve police launched an armed attack and seized the municipal

 7     building.  It was then that Serbs realised that Muslims and the SDA did

 8     not care about peace.

 9             Mr. Delic will explain the process of disarming and his role in

10     this process.  His battalion took part in the disarming of Muslims in

11     Hrustovo and Vrhpolje no earlier than the third day of the fighting.  He

12     claims that none of the members of his battalion committed any crimes.

13     He thinks that misdeeds were done by people who were not from the area of

14     Sanski Most.  In Mahala, he saw individuals from Banja Luka looting the

15     deserted Muslim houses.  Those were criminals who put on the SOS

16     uniforms.

17             Mr. Delic will explain the situation close to the end of the war

18     when Arkan's Tigers arrived in his municipality.

19             Mr. Delic will explain the impact of World War II genocide

20     against the Serbs on the events in Sanski Most municipality in the 1990s

21     and that there were -- was not a part of the territory of Krajina in

22     which the Ustasha did not commit crimes against the Serbs.  It was the

23     fear that their neighbours would murder them mercilessly again that

24     contributed most to the unity of the Serbs in this area.  Their unity was

25     not influenced by any individual or organisation but by the fear of

Page 32930

 1     carnage and their wish to remain in this area.  They were united by

 2     Jasenovac as the largest execution site for the Serbs and by the other

 3     mass graves from World War II.

 4             Mr. Delic will testify about his knowledge regarding the

 5     incidents alleged in the indictment.

 6             That was statement summary, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 8             Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Yes, I

10     am.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.

12     Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.  You'll soon see him on your

13     screen.

14             You may proceed.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Delic.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Now, in paragraph 3 of your statement you refer to your

20     involvement in the establishment of the SDS in Sanski Most.  You refer to

21     a conversation that you had with President Karadzic at the founding

22     meeting of the SDS in Sanski Most.  Now, this conversation took place in

23     September 1990; correct?

24        A.   It was.

25        Q.   Now, skipping forward in your statement to paragraph 18 where you

Page 32931

 1     talk about a conflict that you were involved in with your battalion.  You

 2     say that you were with your battalion in the fight for the liberation of

 3     Jajce.  This was in October 1992, correct?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off all unnecessary microphones,

 5     thank you very much.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   And you say that you were wounded during this time and you spent

 9     a year outside of your unit.  You spent this year in Sanski Most;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, correct.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, there's a part of your statement

13     that's -- is entitled "The Impact of the World War II Genocide Against

14     the Serbs on the Events in Sanski Most Municipality in the 1990s," and

15     that's -- that's 11 paragraphs of the 36 that appear in your statement.

16             Now in the paragraph that follows that section, paragraph 33, you

17     discuss the killing of approximately 28 men at the Vrhpolje bridge on or

18     about the 31st of May, 1992.

19             Now, you state: "I am sure it was an act of revenge," and you

20     suggest the reason for this revenge was the killing of 300 Serbs in

21     Kljevci village, 51 years earlier.

22             Now, is your conclusion that these events were motivated by

23     revenge based on an assumption that you have made, or is it based on

24     information that you -- that you got from the perpetrators of these

25     crimes?

Page 32932

 1        A.   I concluded this based on my line of thinking.  I was aware of

 2     what happened in 1945 in Kljevci and Vrhpolje.  My predecessors told me.

 3     There was a grave and a monument.  It now is gone.  It has been

 4     demolished.  What happened, happened, and that's the only inference I

 5     could make as a human being.  I don't know what else to conclude.  I

 6     don't know who did it.  I was not present when those things were done,

 7     but I heard that they had happened.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, I'd like to switch topic and to the topic

 9     of the SOS or the Serb Defence forces whom you discuss at various points

10     in your statement, paragraphs 15, 16, and 21.  Now, you say that the

11     purpose of the SOS was primarily the psychological protection of the Serb

12     population, and that's paragraph 21.  Now, Mr. Delic, you knew some

13     members of the SOS forces; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, I'd like to show you a document in connection with these

16     forces.

17             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31868.

18        Q.   Now, sir, in front of you, you should see a document issued by

19     the Serb Defence Forces staff of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most.

20     It's dated the 13th of April, 1992.  And we see that it is a

21     proclamation.

22             Now, focusing on the first paragraph of that proclamation, we

23     read that it's informing the Serb people and the general public of the

24     Serb municipality of Sanski Most that a unit of the Serb Defence Forces,

25     SOS, was formed on the 12th of April, 1992, in Lusci Palanka.  And we

Page 32933

 1     read how it is capable of protecting the Serb people of the territory of

 2     the Serb municipality of Sanski Most in a given moment as well as

 3     protecting all others whose security comes into jeopardy.

 4             So what we read there in that first paragraph is consistent with

 5     what you say in your statement about the SOS protecting the Serb people

 6     in Sanski Most; yes?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, moving down a couple of paragraphs, we read that:

 9             "On the 12th of April, 1992, following a decision on the forming

10     of the unit, it was inspected and linked up with other units, according

11     to the principal of the territory and the requests of the military

12     strategy."

13             Now, sir, there's evidence in this case that the SOS was involved

14     in the mopping up operations in Mahala, Hrustovo, and Vrhpolje.  Now,

15     you -- you were also involved in these operations as a member of the

16     6th Brigade in late May and early June 1992; correct?

17        A.   I was a member of the 4th Battalion which held the positions on

18     the so-called Greda, near Poljaci and Sehovaci and Sasina.  That was the

19     line.  I was not in town.  I don't know what was happening there.  I was

20     not present in town.

21             As for the first combat activities, I was on that axis that I

22     just described.  I can state that not a single bullet was ever fired from

23     that line towards Sehovci, Poljak, and Sasina.

24        Q.   But just to be clear, you yourself took part in the disarming of

25     Hrustovo and Vrhpolje; correct?

Page 32934

 1        A.   Yes.  On the third day of those activities.  I would like to

 2     highlight that, day three.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at the end of this proclamation we read that:

 4             "All commanders of sections and commanders of units are invited

 5     to come to their designated places within 24 hours of this proclamation

 6     being publicly announced and to take further instructions for their

 7     work."

 8             And it's signed the Serb Defence Forces.

 9             Now, Mr. Delic, at least in the early part of May 1992, you were

10     a member of the SOS; correct?

11        A.   Somebody inscribed me, just informally.  I never participated in

12     any of their actions, but I knew some 15 lads from the day they were

13     born, so to say.  But I never participated with them in any of the

14     actions.  I don't know who inscribed my name there.

15        Q.   Well, I'd like to look at an exhibit in connection with that.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Before I do, I'd like to tender this document,

17     65 ter 31868.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31868 receives number P7202.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7202 is admitted.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.  Could we please see P3294 on our

22     screens.  And could we please go to page 33 in the English and 26 in the

23     B/C/S.  And this is the -- this is the diary of Nedjeljko Rasula.

24        Q.   Now, sir, this is the diary of Nedjeljko Rasula whom you discuss

25     in your statement in paragraphs 3 and 4, for example.  Focusing your

Page 32935

 1     attention on the bottom of the page on the right-hand side of the B/C/S

 2     original version, we see that there is a Crisis Staff meeting, and it's

 3     dated the 6th of May, 1992.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to the next page in each

 5     language.  And if we can focus on the left-hand side of the page in the

 6     B/C/S, please.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, in front of you, you should see a list of names, number

 8     1 to 33, and at the top of that list, we see the heading SOS.

 9             Now --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see 33 in the English, please.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Could we skip forward one page, please, in English.

12     Sorry, could we go to page -- it should be page 34 in the English.  35 in

13     the English.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We just had it on the screen.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Yeah, that's it.

16        Q.   So we see the list of 33 names.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Jeremy, at 33, in the English, I see a

18     different name from that of the witness.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think the witness is -- I'm

20     going come to it, but I think the witness's name is at number 30 in -- in

21     each list.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   So, sir, we see at the top of this list, number 1, Dusan Saovic.

25     Now he was the commander of the SOS; correct?

Page 32936

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it's -- it's been mentioned, but we see your name at number

 3     30, Tomo Delic, father's name, Gojko.  That's a reference to you;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that should be the case.

 6        Q.   So we see that according to Nedjeljko Rasula, on the 6th of May,

 7     1992, you were one of the 33 members of the SOS.  Now at this time,

 8     May 1992, Nedjeljko Rasula was president of the Crisis Staff in

 9     Sanski Most; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, there is also testimony in this case that -- that you were a

12     member of the SOS, and that testimony is from Grgo Stojic.  And that's at

13     transcript page T4105.  Now, sir, Grgo Stojic was the only surviving

14     victim of an attack near Skrljevita village on 2nd of November, 1992.

15     You recognise the name; yes?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, you discussed this incident in paragraph 36 of your

18     statement.  And just so that we are clear, this is the incident where a

19     number of Croats were returning from the market on the 2nd of November,

20     1992, and they were intercepted by four armed Serbs who questioned them

21     and then executed at least seven of them.  Now, that's the incident that

22     you're referring to in paragraph 36 of your statement; correct?

23        A.   Listen, this is how it was.  What happened in Skrljevita, that

24     has nothing whatsoever to do with the SOS.  Individuals did that.

25        Q.   Sir, yes, we --

Page 32937

 1        A.   That had nothing to do -- there was a suspect who was brought in

 2     and who was put on trial.  And as for the SOS, none of them were from the

 3     SOS.  There was one Dani Kajtez, who --

 4        Q.   Sir, we'll have an opportunity to go through this --

 5        A.   Very well.  Okay, okay.

 6        Q.   -- step by step.

 7        A.   That incident had nothing to do with the SOS.  But it wasn't an

 8     incident.  For me, it was a murder.

 9        Q.   As I say, sir, we'll go through that step by step.  But I think

10     it's -- it's clear that we're referring to the same incident.

11             Now, there's evidence in this case --

12        A.   Yes, you're right --

13        Q.   -- at transcript page 4075 that the victims of this incident were

14     from Skrljevita and Kruhari.  Now, Kruhari is to the immediate west of

15     Skrljevita; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you're from Kruhari; correct?

18        A.   Yes, at the very beginning of it.

19        Q.   And you were the SDS representative for Kruhari, on the

20     local board; correct?

21        A.   At that time and -- that I'm -- it was Ratko Ninic because I was

22     already a soldier of the 5th Battalion.  I represented my local commune

23     politically, but it was Ratko Ninic who actually represented it formally.

24        Q.   But while you were an SDS representative, you were living in

25     Kruhari; is that correct?

Page 32938

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Now in his testimony in this case, T4070 to 4071, Grgo Stojic

 3     stated that before the executions began, each of the victims were asked

 4     about the whereabouts of an Ilija Tutic and a Bono Tutic.  These men are

 5     known to you; correct?

 6        A.   Ilija Tutic?  Is that the name you mentioned?

 7        Q.   Yes, I mentioned two names:  Ilija Tutic and Bono Tutic.

 8        A.   I know Bono Tutic.

 9        Q.   Now --

10        A.   He's a Croat.  He is a Croat, isn't he?

11        Q.   Well, sir, Grgo Stojic in -- on the same page as I've referred to

12     testified about a meeting that you held with Bono Tutic about -- on the

13     subject of disarming in the village of Skrljevita.  Do you recall that

14     meeting?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   Now you say in your statement, and you've mentioned again today,

17     that you heard that these killings were committed by Danilusko Kajtez,

18     and this Chamber has indeed received evidence that --

19        A.   I heard that.

20        Q.   And this Chamber has received evidence that Danilusko Kajtez was,

21     indeed, one of the four perpetrators in this incident.  And that's

22     transcript page 4070 to 4071.

23             Now, Mr. Delic, Danilusko Kajtez was also from Kruhari; correct?

24        A.   Yes.  He had moved to Kruhari with his parents.  You know, the

25     natives of Kruhari are very special people.

Page 32939

 1        Q.   So you knew him personally; correct?

 2        A.   I did.  I knew him from the day he was born.

 3        Q.   Now, you say in your statement, and you've again said today, that

 4     Danilusko Kajtez was detained and punished for the Skrljevita events, and

 5     in your statement you say he was in prison in Banja Luka.  Now --

 6        A.   No, I didn't say that he was punished.  I said that he was on

 7     trial and that he was detained in Banja Luka.  I don't know whether he

 8     was punished or not.

 9        Q.   Well, did you have an opportunity to review your statement before

10     you swore to the truth of its contents today?

11        A.   Where was I supposed to review it and see it?

12        Q.   Well, you were asked --

13        A.   I don't understand your question.

14        Q.   Okay.  You were asked today if you had had an opportunity to

15     review your statement before you swore to the truth of its contents.

16        A.   Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I did review it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, if I can focus your attention on paragraph 36 of

18     that statement, and that's where you talk about the events that we're

19     talking about now in respect of Skrljevita and Danilusko Kajtez.  Do you

20     have that paragraph in front of you, sir?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   Now, we see that it states as follows:

23             "As regards the killing in Skrljevita, I heard they had been

24     committed by Danilusko Kajtez who was detained and punished for that."

25             So, sir, in fact, you did say in your statement that you know

Page 32940

 1     that Danilusko Kajtez was punished; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  But they are two words:  Sanctioned and punished.  In my

 3     view, when I uses the word "sanction" and when I interpret it, that means

 4     that he was brought in to prevent him from perpetrating other crimes.

 5     Now when you say "punish," that means that he is serving a prison

 6     sentence.  That's how I see it in my mind, and this is a difference in

 7     the way I would put it and I would express myself with this regard.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

 9             Mr. Lukic, you are speaking both languages.  Would you like to

10     have the translation verified, whether the word "sanction" was used or

11     the word "punished" was used?

12             MR. LUKIC:  In the statement I can see "sanction" in B/C/S.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In B/C/S.  So therefore, perhaps it's -- well, first

14     of all, Mr. Lukic, if that is of any importance, you should have looked

15     at it.  But apart from that we, of course, want to have the most accurate

16     interpretation.  I don't know who made it but perhaps if would be good to

17     have it verified, especially on this word.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  And I think I can just -- if I

19     could ask one more question just before the break on this.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not saying that you shouldn't continue, but

21     I just notice that there is a -- that there may be a language issue.

22             Please proceed.

23             Apart from, of course, whether the word "sanction" means what the

24     witness says it means.  That's a different matter.  But nevertheless, to

25     start such a discussion should always be done on the basis of the most

Page 32941

 1     accurate interpretation and then that could be the starting point for

 2     further discussion on the meaning of those words.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, this Chamber has received evidence that even in

 6     December 2000, despite previously spending some time in custody, in

 7     prison, the Banja Luka District Court was still looking for

 8     Danilusko Kajtez who had not been tried for the Skrljevita events.

 9     That's P3556.

10             Now my question, sir, is that you're not aware of any sanctioning

11     or -- formal sanctioning or formal punishment of Danilusko Kajtez prior

12     to December 2000, are you?

13        A.   No.  You mean for this case?

14        Q.   Yes.  So, sir, I think your answer is no; is that correct?

15        A.   No, no, no.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'm moving to a new topic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten

18     minutes to 11.00.

19             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

20                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Delic, we'll continue.  Mr. Jeremy will put

25     further questions to you.

Page 32942

 1             Mr. Jeremy.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Mr. Delic, now, you say in your -- and staying on this topic of

 4     Danilusko Kajtez and Skrljevita.  You say in your statement that you are

 5     certain that Kajtez was not a member of any unit at that time, at the --

 6     at the time of the events in Skrljevita.  Now, by "unit," you're

 7     referring to a military unit; is that correct?

 8        A.   I mean a military unit and I mean the SOS.  He was part of the

 9     SOS, but to the best of my knowledge, and the late commander Dusko used

10     to say that, he'd say Danilusko is the worst one I got.  He took some

11     weapons and went I don't know where.  So he got a weapon, walked around,

12     and he knows what he did.

13        Q.   And, sir --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones

15     please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

16             MR. JEREMY:

17        Q.   Sir, you say that he was a member of the SOS.  And referring to

18     the document that we were looking at before, P3294, which is hopefully

19     still on our screens --

20             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to P3294, please.  And if we could go to

21     page 34 in the English and page 27 in the B/C/S, please.  If we can focus

22     on the left-hand side of the page in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   And so we see in this list, number 18, a reference to a Dane

24     Kajtez, father's name Gojko.  That's a reference to Danilusko Kajtez, the

25     man we've been discussing today; correct?

Page 32943

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, so we agree that he was a member of the SOS at a certain

 3     time.  Now, this Chamber has also received evidence that Kajtez was a

 4     member of the 6th Brigade during the war period, and that evidence is

 5     P2420, which is a document from the Banja Luka Military Court which

 6     released Kajtez back to his unit shortly after these events in -- and the

 7     release was in early 1993.

 8             Now, sir, not only was Kajtez a member of the 6th Brigade but he

 9     was actually also in the same battalion as you, the 4th Battalion;

10     correct?

11        A.   Well, look, Danilusko Kajtez is a man who I think is sick.  Now

12     when I think of it all, I think he is a sick man.

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   He was registered here --

15        Q.   Sir --

16        A.   -- but not in a single operation.  He did not take part in a

17     single operation of the 4th Battalion.  You can get the exact answer --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from the battalion commander,

20     but I don't know about that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you please answer the question.  The

22     question was whether Danilusko Kajtez actually was also in the same

23     battalion as you were, the 4th Battalion?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.  He was

25     never at the front line with me.

Page 32944

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Now for the next exhibit

 3     I'd like to look at, it's under seal, so could we go into private

 4     session, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32945











11  Pages 32945-32946 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32947

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   Now, sir, you say in your statement that your company, the

 9     1st Company of the 4th Infantry Battalion of the 6th Brigade, was

10     comprised of inhabitants of your birth village, and that's in

11     paragraph 6.  So, sir, as a member of the 4th Battalion of the

12     6th Brigade, Danilusko Kajtez would have been in your company; correct?

13        A.   He was supposed to be, but he wasn't.  If he was in the 6th Sana,

14     he was never with me.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, sir, you say in your statement in paragraph 36

16     that in respect to these events in Skrljevita, Kajtez acted completely

17     independently.  Now, is this an assumption that you have made or is it

18     based on perhaps a conversation that you had with Danilusko Kajtez?

19        A.   Absolutely.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you saying that it's absolutely an assumption --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Listen, I didn't talk to him about

22     that.  And he never told me about any of that.  But I did talk -- I mean,

23     when people heard that he had done that, then I did talk to these men

24     from SOS, and they said to me, You know that he broke off from us, that

25     is he a renegade.  4th Battalion?  No way.  No way.  I don't know who he

Page 32948

 1     would have gone with in the 4th Battalion.  I don't know.

 2             MR. JEREMY:

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to put it to you that the reason that you are

 4     attempting to distance Kajtez from the VRS, from the SOS, and from

 5     yourself and to depict him as a renegade is because you yourself were

 6     involved in the ordering of this attack in Skrljevita.  That's correct,

 7     isn't it?

 8        A.   That is not correct.  How can you say that?  How can you say that

 9     I am disassociating myself, that I'm distancing myself?  I'm distancing

10     myself from that man as a person, as a person.  I mean, I don't know who

11     can testify that he was in the army.  You have the battalion commander.

12     Go ahead and ask him.  You have young men who were in SOS.  Ask them

13     whether he went into operations with him.  He took weapons and he knows

14     what he did.  How could I issue orders for Skrljevita?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P366 on our screens.

18        Q.   And this is a handwritten letter signed by Danilusko Kajtez.

19     It's sent to Vlado Vrkes.

20             Sir, focusing your attention on the document before you, we read

21     as follows:  "Brother Vlado and the rest of you gentlemen."  And I'm

22     going to focus on a few paragraphs here.  The first one states:

23             "Vlado, my wife came to visit me on Tuesday (19 April) and said

24     that the lawyer Tomic told Neso over the telephone that he couldn't help

25     me."

Page 32949

 1             In the next paragraph, we read:

 2             "This means that he anticipates a harsh sentence and therefore

 3     wants to distance himself in time.

 4             "I can't take this endless and painful investigation any longer.

 5     You are all supposedly working on my behalf, but in fact nothing is

 6     happening and you don't give a damn.  You just care for yourselves."

 7             Skip the next paragraph.  The one after that, we read:

 8             "Vlado, you know as well as the rest of you, what and how much I

 9     have done for the [sic] damned Sanski Most."

10             Skipping on:

11             "What I'm about to say to you, to all of you, now is a very

12     serious matter and please take it that way, as this is my only way out."

13             Skipping the next paragraph, and if we can -- well, we see at the

14     bottom of the page in the B/C/S:

15             "You know that out of Manjaca ..."

16             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the next page in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   "... I and a few others liquidated 12 people on two occasions,

18     which was ordered and witnessed by inspector Vujanic Mico Krunic who was

19     the warden of the Betonirka prison at the time, Mile and other

20     inspectors, the chief at that time was Vrucinic."

21             Mr. Delic just stopping there, you're aware of this particular

22     incident; correct?  This incident where a number of men suffocated?

23        A.   Skrljevita, you mean?

24        Q.   No, sir.  I'm focusing --

25        A.   What, rather?

Page 32950

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you wait until Mr. Jeremy has

 2     finished his question and not interrupt him.

 3             Mr. Jeremy.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Witness, my question is this:  We see -- we saw in the text this

 6     reference to 12 people being liquidated at Manjaca.  And my question to

 7     you is:  Are you aware that a number of persons suffocated when being

 8     transported from Betonirka to Manjaca on the 7th of July, 1992?

 9        A.   Am I supposed to answer?

10        Q.   Yes, Mr. Delic.  It's a question to you.

11        A.   As regards these people that you mentioned, 12 who suffocated, I

12     don't know anything about that.  I don't know about anybody suffocating

13     in Betonirka.  I don't know about that, either, because I never even

14     stopped by Betonirka when these bad times started, if I can call them

15     that.  I never stopped by.  I never went there.

16        Q.   That's clear, sir.  Thank you.  Now returning back to this letter

17     that we have before us, I'm going to move forward two further

18     paragraphs where we read as follows:

19             "As for this charge against me, the gist of my defence will be

20     that we went hunting and were attacked.  If I get a harsh sentence, in

21     other words, if you fail to get me out of here, I will say that I killed

22     on orders issued by Tomo Delic and Vlado Vrkes with the intention of

23     resettling the village of Skrljevita as soon as possible.  All of which

24     could easily be proven in court."

25             Now, sir, that's a reference to you; correct?

Page 32951

 1        A.   My name is mentioned but nothing doing.  At the beginning of the

 2     text, I was following this, he said that he couldn't take it any longer

 3     and that he should be helped.  Now, who did he mean?  He meant Tomo Delic

 4     should do something to set him free.

 5             Judge, sir, if he knew you, he would address you, too, in order

 6     to get out of prison.  Because Tomo Delic was an eminent citizen of

 7     Sanski Most who had capital and who earned it through his own hard work.

 8     Tomo Delic, son of Gojko, real name, Tomislav.  Everybody appreciated

 9     whatever he said.  This, this deserves condemnation.  Now he is invoking

10     my name.  Since he was my neighbour, he probably thought that Tomo Delic

11     would try to do something.  His mother came to see me, "Tomo, try and do

12     something," and also they organised demonstrations, and I told the people

13     to go back home.  You cannot allow people to commit crimes.

14        Q.   Sir --

15        A.   Danilusko Kajtez.  Danilusko Kajtez, he'd write anything to get

16     out of prison.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm going to put it to you that Danilusko Kajtez has not

18     written to you saying, "Please, Tomo Delic, prominent individual in my

19     village, get me out of prison."  He has written to say that he will tell

20     people that he has killed on the orders of Tomo Delic.  Do you have any

21     comment on that?

22        A.   Sir, you can claim whatever you want.  What I'm saying is the

23     truth.  Many of the allegations that you are making are incorrect.

24        Q.   Now, sir, this Chamber has received evidence that shortly after

25     the attack on the Croats on the 2nd of November, 1992, Croats from

Page 32952

 1     Skrljevita left for Croatia and this was not only because these men were

 2     murdered but also because of subsequent murders, intimidation, and

 3     looting of property.  And that's the testimony of Grgo Stojic, transcript

 4     page 4075.

 5             Sir, this Chamber has also received evidence that you,

 6     Tomo Delic, exploited the fear created by this attack and that in these

 7     circumstances Croats from your village, Kruhari, signed their property

 8     over to you and departed Sanski Most.  That's the testimony of RM015,

 9     transcript page 17312 to 17313.  And, sir, that's the truth, isn't it?

10        A.   That is not the truth.  Do you want an explanation for this

11     entire story?

12        Q.   Well, sir, we'll continue to move through this document.

13             Now, I'm going to skip down four paragraphs below the

14     paragraph that we've just been looking at where we read -- and if we can

15     go to page 3 in the B/C/S, halfway down that page 3.  We read:

16             "There is still a month or two left before the trial so do

17     something if you can.  If you can't, then we'll meet in the dock, behind

18     bars, all together - you, Vrucinic, Vujanic, Krunic, Mima, and

19     Tomo Delic, because - illegible - ordered me to do this.  Why should you

20     all be better or greater Serbs than me?"

21             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the next page in the English,

22     please, and if we can go to the final page in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   Sir, towards the end, before the signature, we read:

24             "That is all this time and for the last time.  Your Vojvoda

25     duke," and we see the signature.

Page 32953

 1             Below that we see a post-script, which reads as follows:

 2             "Go to Talic, Mladic, Karadzic, to whoever you can think of, but

 3     get me out of here."

 4             And in the very last paragraph, we read:

 5             "My fellow prisoners here, from various towns, who also killed

 6     the Balija and the Ustasha, are being acquitted and helped by their

 7     municipalities.  Only Dane is being put into deep shit by his own side.

 8     So be it, Serb gentlemen."

 9             Now, Mr. Delic, this Chamber has received evidence that

10     Danilusko Kajtez was eventually released from prison on the 14th of

11     March, 1995.  That's P372.  And, sir, you knew that he was released

12     subsequent to the writing of this letter to, among others, yourself;

13     correct?

14        A.   You know what?  I heard about this letter after the war.  I heard

15     that he had written it.  But I knew when he was released from prison.

16     His house was close to mine.  He passed by my house and he told me, "Here

17     I am, out of prison."  You have to know that I drew my weapon at him

18     because he had attacked a Croat in my courtyard.

19        Q.   And, sir, you would agree that after this incident in Skrljevita,

20     more Croats did, indeed, leave Sanski Most, and they left Kruhari, and

21     they left Skrljevita.  That's correct, isn't it?

22        A.   That's correct.  Almost everybody left.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 32954

 1             Before we continue, Witness, I have one question.  It was put to

 2     you that property of those who had left was signed over to you.  Now, did

 3     that happen at all?  Did you acquire any property which earlier belonged

 4     to those who left?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none whatsoever.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this is how things transpired.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Why did they transpire as such?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how things transpired.

10             Mr. Milan Martic, the late Milan Martic, has a son, Ivica, who is

11     a parish priest in Sanski Most.  In 1941 he saved some members of my

12     family who were taken to be killed in Susnjari, and the same thing

13     happened 50 years later.  I had to protect Milan Martic from that

14     Danilusko Kajtez.  He cursed my mother.  Milan Martic was in my

15     courtyard, and then Danilusko Kajtez said, "I am going to kill both of

16     you."

17             I also had a house on the Island of Krk.  Mile told me, "Tomo, I

18     cannot drag you and your family into that."  I told him, "Mile these are

19     documents of my house on Krk.  Go there and you draw a contract here

20     showing that I was protecting your property here."  The only Croatian

21     house in our local commune belongs to Milan Martic.  It is still here.

22     His wife is alive.  No other house has remained intact but that one

23     because everybody knew that Tomo Delic was protecting it.  They returned

24     to their house immediately after the war.  Ten days after the BiH army

25     entered Sanski Most, his wife arrived and found in her house all the

Page 32955

 1     appliances and everything else save for those things that that had been

 2     plundered by BiH soldiers.

 3             So this is how things transpired.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have another question.  In paragraph 15 of

 5     your statement -- and perhaps it can be shown to you.  Paragraph 15 is

 6     dealing with your battalion taking part in disarming of Muslims.  It says

 7     at the end:

 8             "In Mahala, I saw individuals from Banja Luka looting the

 9     deserted Muslim houses.  Those were criminals who put on the SOS

10     uniforms."

11             First of all, could you tell us who these persons were?  Do you

12     have names?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know any names.  When I

14     went to see what was going on there, somebody told me that they were from

15     Banja Luka.  Because all the criminals from the whole areas plundered

16     under the guise of the SOS.  I was watching them being chased from

17     Mahala.  So they put on SOS uniforms in order to plunder under disguise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How are you sure that they were not SOS

19     members then if you don't know who they are?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because Dusko Saovic told me that

21     dishonourable acts were committed under the guise of the SOS.  They then

22     issued a document asking not to be called the SOS anymore but to be

23     incorporated into the 6th Sana Brigade.  The words I heard from them was,

24     "Everybody and their uncle are looting, pretending to be SOS."  I know

25     that they stopped being SOS.  They became members of the 6th Sana Brigade

Page 32956

 1     based on a document.  I believe that document still exists.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, did you know all the SOS members?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not all of them.  Some 15 lads

 4     or so, did I know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So if the SOS had more than 15 members, you wouldn't

 6     know whether those you saw in so uniforms, whether they were members yes

 7     or no.  You wouldn't know that, would you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But their commander told me that

 9     they were not SOS members.  A lot of was happening between the commander

10     of the SOS and Rasula and Vlado.  Arguments, quarrel, harsh words.  All

11     sorts of commotion.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the commander with you in Mahala, the SOS

13     commander?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went there to see what had

15     happened you mean?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, my question was when you went to --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness's

20     words.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you just let me finish -- well, I repeat my

22     question:  When you went there to see what had happened, were you

23     accompanied by the commander of the SOS?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander took me in his car.

25     He told me, "Let's go there to see what's going on."

Page 32957

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were there together.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the car.  We were in the car.

 3     We did not leave the car to take a stroll around.  We just drove by.  As

 4     a citizen, I was curious to see what had been destroyed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But you saw individuals looting.  Did he see that as

 6     well?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The two of us saw it.  And after

 8     that, he said:  "I'm going straight to Rasula to see what we can do."  He

 9     told me, "This one's from Banja Luka," "This one's from Prijedor."  I

10     didn't know those people.  That's why I'm telling you that I saw things.

11     I was with him, I was in his car.  He told me that they were not SOS

12     members, and after that he decided to issue that document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you go there with the SOS commander who

14     then sees people dressed in SOS uniforms, looting, saying that they are

15     not SOS members, and he didn't get out of his car and he didn't address

16     those saying, Why are you wearing SOS uniforms?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He just cursed one who was close to

18     the car.  He didn't dare get out because that man had an automatic rifle

19     and the commander only had a pistol.  I suppose he knew him.  I know he

20     cursed his mother, but he didn't get out of the car.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was your unit involved in any way in disarming

22     Mahala or attacking Mahala?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My unit was on position on Kruhari

24     near the Sana river and also on the Sava riverbank.  I don't think that

25     any of the soldiers of the 4th Battalion ever went to Mahala.

Page 32958

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge about what happened in

 2     Mahala before this looting started?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you say you went --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When before?  What do you mean?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you went there to see what had happened and

 7     you saw persons looting.  Now, was your unit involved in the previous

 8     stage; that is, before the looting started, whether there was any

 9     disarming of the population of Mahala or whether there was any attack on

10     Mahala village?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My unit was not in the territory of

12     Mahala.  When I went to visit Mahala, I think it was on day four or five

13     after those night activities and shooting.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Your unit was not there.  Do you have any

15     knowledge about an attack on Mahala?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None of the soldiers were there.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question is whether you have any knowledge

18     about any attack on Mahala or any combat or any disarming that happened

19     before you went there and saw the looting.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke to Ostoja Cukovic, who was

21     their battalion commander.  He told me that Mahala would be disarmed.  We

22     had to be in our positions.  I was near Sehovci, Poljaci, and Sasina with

23     my company, and the others were elsewhere.  And obviously when the

24     fighting started, I have to tell you it was terrible to listen to the

25     bullets flying from all over the place.

Page 32959

 1             And as for Kruhari, Kruhari is somewhat elevated above the Sana

 2     valley.  So when fire was opened from there, the bullets reached us.  So

 3     we spent more time on the ground than standing up.  I don't know who was

 4     shooting at whom.  I don't know because I wasn't there.  In any case,

 5     prior to that, I was told that Mahala would be disarmed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

 7             Finally, one question, spontaneously when asked whether you had

 8     been a member of the SOS, you referred to a list.  Had you seen that list

 9     before, the list that was later shown to you as a part of the diary?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw a list.  The late commander

11     Dusko told me, "I am going to put your name on my list."  And then I

12     said, "Well, the age is not suitable, and I am also a member of the

13     4th Battalion."  He said, "I would do it."  I said, "No, no, don't."  We

14     met each other when the corridor was being broken, and then I was a

15     member of the 1st Battalion when the action at corridor was taking place.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

17             But did you know that your name was put on a list?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew because one man told me that

19     he received a salary.  He -- it was my salary.  He told me, "Boss, I took

20     your salary based on the SOS list."  I don't know what the salary was.  I

21     don't know whether they received any salaries, why he told me that in the

22     first place.  But in any case, he told me that he had claimed my salary

23     based on the SOS list.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  By whom were they paid?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't even know

Page 32960

 1     whether that information was correct or whether he was just pulling my

 2     leg.  I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you earlier told us that you do not know who

 4     inscribed your name on the list; whereas, a minute ago you gave me a full

 5     explanation of how your name ended up on that list because you said Dusko

 6     told you -- would you please -- would you please not interrupt me.

 7             A minute ago, you told us that someone announced to you that your

 8     name would be put on a list; whereas, earlier you said you have no idea.

 9             Any explanation for why you said you don't know who put your name

10     on the list and --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a clue that I was

12     there.  I had two bars.  They came to my bars and he told me, "Boss, I'm

13     going to put your name on the list."  But I never knew that that had come

14     through.  And then the other one came and said, "Boss, I'm claiming your

15     salary."  Again, I don't know whether it was just a rumour, whether

16     somebody was pulling my leg.  I thought that those were just rumours, you

17     know, the type of stories you hear in a bar.  I never knew that anything

18     was made official, that my name was actually put on any list.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You were not aware of that until today?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not officially.  Until today, no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And unofficially?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unofficially -- Tomo Delic was

23     everywhere.  Whenever somebody needed money or something else, my name

24     would come up.  That goes to show what kind of a person I am.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

Page 32961

 1             But spontaneously you told us that your name was inscribed on a

 2     list.  So apparently you had some knowledge about that.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rumours.  People came to my bar.

 4     They had a drink or two and then they would tell me, "You are our

 5     member."  Or the other would say, "No, you are our member."  Nothing ever

 6     came officially.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I just need to make several

10     clarifications.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Delic, further questions will now be put to you

12     by Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have P31 -- actually, it was 65 ter 31868.

14     I didn't jot down the exhibit number, if it's admitted.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P7202.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  So P7202.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Delic, you were shown this document before.

19     Do you see it in front of you?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   It's a proclamation.  It doesn't depict a stamp or a signature.

22     Did you see documents issued by SOS?  Did you know if they looked like

23     this?  Do you know how they issued their documents?

24        A.   No, I never saw any of their documents.  I don't even know that

25     they issued any documents.  I don't know whether any of their documents

Page 32962

 1     would look like that.  But now I can see that they did.  You say that

 2     they did.  It says the Serb Defence Forces staff.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at P3294.  It is Nedjeljko

 4     Rasula's diary.  Just bear with us while the representative of the

 5     Registry calls up the document on the screen in Banja Luka.

 6             First, you were shown page 33 in English, which is also page 26

 7     in B/C/S.  This is about a Crisis Staff meeting.  That meeting was

 8     supposed to have taken place on the 6th of May, 1992, according to

 9     Mr. Rasula's diary.  There's no reference to the SOS on this page.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to the following pages in

11     both versions. [In English] If we can move to the next page in both

12     versions.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] What was Nedjeljko Rasula's position in the SOS?

14     Did he hold any position?

15        A.   I don't know.  He was president of the municipality or mayor, the

16     president of the Crisis Staff as well.  I don't know what he had to do

17     with the SOS.  I haven't a clue.

18        Q.   Here we can see 33 names on the B/C/S page, and there is the year

19     of birth for every person on the list except for you and Dragan Camber.

20        A.   Who is that?  I haven't a clue.  Listen, if I had inscribed my

21     name anywhere, I would have provided my full name, my year of birth, the

22     times whereas they were, so I suppose if you were joining something they

23     should have known your full name.

24        Q.   This is precisely what I was going to ask you.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness has interrupted the counsel.  The

Page 32963

 1     question was not completed so the answer cannot be interpreted either.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, wait for a second.  Mr. Lukic will

 3     repeat his question.  Would you wait until that question has been

 4     finished and then again answer the question.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is Tomo your name or your nickname?

 8        A.   In business terms, they call me Tomo.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You have told us -- we have your answer.  I thought

10     that your answer was not recorded but it has been.

11             You mentioned that you gave the key to your house on the Island

12     of Krk to Mile Martic.  Just for the record, where is Krk?

13        A.   In Croatia.  The Island of Krk, off the share of Rijeka.

14        Q.   Do you know if the Martic family ever used your house on Krk?

15        A.   Yes, they did at the time.

16        Q.   Do you remember the name of Mile Martic's wife?  And you say that

17     she is still alive.

18        A.   Slavka Martic.  Her son is the parish priest in Sanski Most.  His

19     name is Ivica.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Delic.  This is all we had for you.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot follow here English channel, so I am not

22     following the pace since I cannot hear the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're not blamed in any way for not being

24     able to do that.

25             Mr. Lukic, I was just about to intervene because what the witness

Page 32964

 1     said about the house in Krk was really not in relation to the question I

 2     put to him, so therefore it doesn't arise from any of the questions, at

 3     least, in the examination.

 4             Any further questions, Mr. Jeremy?

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  I had one or two questions

 6     arising out of your questions to the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Delic, a few more questions.  It's almost done.  Listen

 9     carefully.

10             Mr. Jeremy.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

13        Q.   Now, sir, I want to go back to this topic of Mahala which you

14     discussed with the Presiding Judge a few minutes ago and which you also

15     discuss in your statement.

16             Now in paragraph 11 of your statement, you -- you refer to the

17     conflict in the settlement of Mahala.  Now, that was -- can we agree that

18     was on the 25th or 26th of May, 1992?

19        A.   Is he asking me?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, you -- in your statement you say --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In the statement you say:  "Immediately before

23     the conflict in the settlement of Mahala," apparently you have an idea

24     about chronology, and Mr. Jeremy now asks you whether it was on the date

25     he mentioned.

Page 32965

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date.  It was

 2     a long time ago.  I don't remember the date, but I remember the events.

 3     And I am giving you my account of the events as I remember them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question.

 5             Please, Mr. Jeremy.

 6             MR. JEREMY:

 7        Q.   And, sir, you've spoken about looting after the conflict in

 8     Mahala.  It's correct that this looting happened after this conflict that

 9     you refer to in paragraph 11; correct.

10        A.   I was there on the fifth or sixth day.  The conflict was over, so

11     there was no more conflict going on, and looting started.

12        Q.   Well, sir, and that goes to the essence of my question:  You were

13     asked today whether your unit was in Mahala before this conflict began,

14     and you said that:  When I went to visit Mahala, I think it was on the

15     fourth or the fifth day after the activities and the shooting.

16             Now, I read in paragraph 12 of your statement that you say:

17             "Before this conflict, I went to Mahala with Ostoja Cukovic."

18             So can we agree that you were, in fact, in Mahala before the

19     conflict broke out?

20        A.   Before the conflict broke out, I received a telephone call from

21     one of my waiters.  He said, "War is starting."  I went to the cafe, went

22     to town, and I said, "What's up?"  And they said, "The Muslims by the

23     school took weapons and they started attacking us."  This was before the

24     conflict.  And I said then, "I'm going to Mahala to see," because I

25     thought that I was a citizen who could walk around.  Then Ostoja Cukovic

Page 32966

 1     said, "I am coming with you."  We got into my car and we slowly drove

 2     through Mahala.

 3             Around the corner, you could see people with weapons who moved

 4     out of the way when they saw a car coming up.  Then -- I forgot the name

 5     of the school in Mahala, but people were there with all kinds of weapons.

 6     Hunting weapons, different kinds of weapons.  I got out of the car and I

 7     addressed people with the following words:  "People, can we say 'merhaba'

 8     instead of 'pomoz bog,'" and people recognised me there in the dark and

 9     said --

10        Q.   Sir, can --

11        A.   -- "Tomo, that's you, is it?"  And they said, "What's up?"  And I

12     said, "I don't know."  And then there was this man called Irfan.  He had

13     a hunting carbine and --

14        Q.   Mr. Delic, you've answered my question.  So in fact --

15        A.   All right.

16        Q.   -- you weren't only in Mahala four or five days after the

17     conflict broke out but you were also there before.  You've clarified

18     that.  I thank you.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one final question.  Do you know where you

21     say that the Muslims used heavy weaponry in the events in Mahala,

22     whether, from the Serb side, any artillery or mortars were used, or do

23     you have no knowledge of that at all?

24        A.   There was shooting from all sides.  Mortars were being fired.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  From both sides?

Page 32967

 1        A.   Yes, both.  Falling on the left and right side of town.  One was

 2     in Serb hands; the other one in Muslim hands.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Were no houses in the town hit by mortar fire?

 4        A.   Yes, there were houses that had been hit.  Even in my street a

 5     house had been hit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Were houses hit by Serb mortars and by Muslim

 7     mortars or by one of them only?

 8        A.   I was not a mortar man, and I did not command a squad of mortars,

 9     so I'm not in a position to say anything.  I don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             No further questions.  Then, Witness, this concludes your

12     testimony.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the videolink

13     location and for having answered the questions that were put to you by

14     the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

16                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we continue, what is the programme

18     for the remainder of the day?

19             MR. LUKIC:  We understood you yesterday, Your Honour, that you

20     said that we should continue with the witness who testified the previous

21     two days.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

24             MR. LUKIC:  He said, "That's it."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's good to have at least additional

Page 32968

 1     interpreter.  And if it's not contradicted by the booth, I exceptionally

 2     will thank you for serving as an interpreter, Mr. Lukic.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It was on the English

 4     channel where we speak otherwise, so we cannot use the channel in two

 5     ways.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, if -- I think we should conclude the

 7     videolink so that we do not watch the witness any further, not knowing

 8     that he is watched.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  So, Your Honour, we would recall, and my colleague

10     Ivetic would continue with Mr. Subotic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that the next videolink witness

12     is available tomorrow and not today.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC:  That's my understanding too.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's our understanding as well.

17             We'll take a break first and then we'd like to continue hearing

18     the testimony of Mr. Subotic after the break.

19             We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for Mr. Subotic to be escorted in the

23     courtroom.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 32969

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I received confirmation from all interested parties

 2     that we could sit tomorrow starting at 9.00 and continuing until quarter

 3     past 2.00 at its latest.

 4             Therefore later when we adjourn, I'll mention a time different

 5     from usual.  And I take it that all the formalities for the waiver will

 6     be completed, if they are not yet.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  They are, Your Honour, and sent to Ms. Registry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Subotic.

11             Mr. Subotic, again, we had to give priority to the videolink as I

12     explained to you earlier.  That's inevitable.  And we regret that you

13     have to wait for such a long time.

14             I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

15     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, and

16     Ms. Hasan will now continue her cross-examination.

17             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18                           WITNESS:  BOJAN SUBOTIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:  [Continued]

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Now, in your statement --

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   -- you describe escorting the convoy of vehicles from Nova Kasaba

24     to Bratunac, and you led that convoy together with three soldiers in a

25     BOV 7; that's right?

Page 32970

 1        A.   Yes, a combat armoured vehicle of the infantry, yes.  With four

 2     soldiers only, I think.  Or three?  I cannot remember exactly, but around

 3     that figure.

 4        Q.   These were all members of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment;

 5     these were all MPs?

 6        A.   Yes, members of the battalion of the military police that

 7     belonged to the protection regiment, yes.

 8        Q.   And the Praga that was escorting the convoy from the rear, the

 9     Praga had also a commander and a number of soldiers; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  The Praga was also from the artillery battalion that

11     belonged to the protection regiment.  It was firing support.  There was

12     the commander of the crew and three soldiers, I think.  I think three.

13        Q.   So is it correct, then, both vehicles were -- belonged to the

14     65th Motorised Protection Regiment?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Just so we're clear about these vehicles, could we look at a very

17     short clip from the Srebrenica trial video.

18             MS. HASAN:  It's P01147, V009267.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Sound relevant?

20             MS. HASAN:  No.  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MS. HASAN:  And if we can start at the clip at 00:22.04.  And we

23     could just play a few seconds of that.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. HASAN:  We can stop it right there.  That's at 00:22.08.

Page 32971

 1        Q.   Witness, this vehicle that we see in the back, and I'm not

 2     claiming that these are the vehicles of the 65th Motorised

 3     Protection Regiment, but is that a BOV 7?  Is that the kind of vehicle

 4     that was leading the convoy?

 5        A.   No.  I think that -- I think that this is a BOV 5 or 6.  This is

 6     a combat vehicle that is meant for anti-aircraft defence.  It's similar.

 7     I had a machine-gun, and this is an anti-aircraft gun that is mounted on

 8     it.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And the vehicle that we saw in front of this one - and if

10     you'd like, I can replay that - was that a Praga?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Even if the witness wouldn't like it, I would like

12     to see it again.

13             MS. HASAN:  It was very short.  In fact, Ms. Stewart, I think,

14     has captured the image right there.  That's at 00:22.06.

15        Q.   Is that the kind of vehicle that was at the rear of the convoy?

16        A.   It is not our Praga.  It is a type of Praga.  We had

17     Jotifka [phoen] Pragas.  That is an older Praga type.  It is a Praga but

18     it's not from our regiment.  We had one that was a bit more modern; that

19     is to say, the modification was better as far as I can see here in this

20     photograph.  It's a bit blurred.  And background as well.

21        Q.   Now, en route -- and we're done with this video.  En route to

22     Bratunac, you would have driven past the Sandici meadow and the

23     agricultural warehouse at Kravica.  You do know where that warehouse is?

24        A.   Roughly.  I think I know, roughly.  There are two or three

25     buildings, something red, white.  If that's what I mean?  I mean, a

Page 32972

 1     red-and-white building.  Is that the warehouse?  Is that what you mean,

 2     actually?

 3        Q.   It's on the right-hand side.  It's a big agricultural warehouse.

 4     It's the only one in that area, so I think we are talking about the same

 5     thing.

 6             Now, did you hear any shooting or sounds of exploding

 7     hand-grenades coming from the direction of the warehouse when you passed

 8     by along that road?

 9        A.   I heard shooting all along; that is to say, the surrounding hills

10     and around the road.  The entire road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac.

11     Specifically, I didn't notice any stronger explosions.  But in two or

12     three or four places, I saw fire that was a bit stronger.  It was like

13     combat.  I don't know which area you mean specifically.  Are you

14     referring to Kravica or the entire road or journey?

15        Q.   I was referring to coming from the direction of the warehouse.

16     Is that where you heard the strong fire, around that area?

17        A.   Well, around that area, yes.  There weren't any explosions but

18     there was shooting all along.  I was on the move.  And I didn't really

19     notice at each and every moment where this was happening exactly.  I

20     mean, it's not that I would stop and listen.  There was shooting all

21     along.  It had already started getting dark, so I couldn't really

22     orientate myself.  I couldn't remember some of these particular places.

23     But yes, around Kravica, Konjevic Polje, as we entered Bratunac; yes, all

24     the way.  Some sporadic gun-fire.

25        Q.   Did you see any hay stacked in front of the entrance of the

Page 32973

 1     warehouse?

 2        A.   Well, I did not -- I mean, the warehouse was not the focus of my

 3     assignment.  I was securing the column - that is to say, 5 or 10 metres

 4     on both sides - and we were on the move.  Now, haystacks.  They're all

 5     over the place.  In meadows, I mean.  That was not the subject of my

 6     interest, and it's not something that I would remember.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Did you see dead bodies in front of the warehouse?

 8        A.   No, no.  Dead bodies?  No, nowhere.  From Kasaba to Bratunac.

 9     I'm saying I was supposed to secure that column, and I tried to make sure

10     that the column would arrive.  I didn't see corpses anywhere.  I saw

11     soldiers and policemen in groups along the road in Kravica, in Kravica

12     itself, before Kravica, after Kravica, but I didn't see any corpses, no.

13        Q.   Did you notice that the building was damaged, that there were

14     bullet-holes on the facade of the building?  Did you see that?

15        A.   Well, specifically, no.  Well, I didn't focus on that.  All of

16     these houses were bullet-riddled throughout the war.  When this happened,

17     I really don't know.  It was shells and bullets that had damaged Kravica

18     throughout the years.

19        Q.   I -- I just want to get a clear answer from you.  When you passed

20     by, did you see bullet-holes in the Kravica warehouse, irrespective of

21     when you claim these holes were created?

22        A.   Well, maybe I did, maybe I didn't.  I really didn't pay attention

23     to that.  That is to say, I was not interested in the warehouse.  I was

24     interested in providing security for the transport.  I really cannot

25     remember now.  It's been 20 years.  Probably if there are bullet-holes on

Page 32974

 1     the houses all around, then probably on the warehouse too.  That is to

 2     say, I did not focus on the buildings around.  I focused on the column

 3     that I was providing security for, also on traffic, so that these buses

 4     would not be fired upon; those that I was securing, that is.  It wasn't

 5     buildings that were the subject of my interest.  I really cannot recall

 6     now.

 7        Q.   So let's move on.  You're passing down the road and you pass

 8     through Kravica village.  Are you familiar with a shop or a supermarket

 9     that's in the centre of the village?  It would have been on your

10     left-hand side at the time.  It's not very far from the school, the road

11     that leads to the school in Kravica.

12        A.   Well, I don't know really whether are any shops.  I went through

13     Kravica five or six times, ever.  I never stopped at a shop.  Of course,

14     there have to be shops if people live there.  I didn't really understand

15     what you meant.  Are you asking me whether I know whether a shop exists?

16     Well, probably ...

17        Q.   Let me put it this way.  When you passed Kravica village, did you

18     see trucks or buses parked over there?

19        A.   On part of the road, I did see one or two buses.  I cannot

20     remember exactly.  Now, was it in the centre of the village of Kravica?

21     At any rate, there were two buses.  But I cannot say for sure where this

22     was.  I cannot remember.  I know that I got out of the combat vehicle so

23     that one of these buses could move.  I mean, in order for the column to

24     pass by.  But it's possible.  It's possible that they were in the centre

25     of Kravica.  That's possible.

Page 32975

 1        Q.   When you arrived at the Vuk Karadzic school, now, in your

 2     statement you talk about handing over the prisoners to the civilian

 3     police, you don't say anything about having seen military police in

 4     Bratunac.  But in fact you did, didn't you?

 5        A.   I first saw military police in Bratunac at the very entrance into

 6     the town of Bratunac.  I think that Jepovac [phoen] is the name of that

 7     neighbourhood.  They had some kind of a check-point there.  Otherwise

 8     that check-point was always there.  By the school itself, I did not see

 9     any military --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

12             By the school itself, when I arrived, since I was at the head of

13     the column, there was the police, the civilian police, with their own

14     vehicle with rotating lights.  The military police, well, I did see them

15     in town and at that check-point.  But around the school itself, no.

16             Now, inside the school -- I mean, I didn't go into the school or

17     into the school-yard, no.

18             MS. HASAN:

19        Q.   And these military policemen that you saw in the centre of town,

20     these were together with the civilian policemen, and they were Bratunac

21     Brigade military police; is that right?

22        A.   I assumed that they were military policemen of the

23     Bratunac Brigade because it is the area of the Bratunac Brigade.  But at

24     that check-point, they were alone; that is to say, the civilian police

25     was not there at the entrance into Bratunac.  In town, I saw two or three

Page 32976

 1     military policemen.  Now, I did not see them together with these civilian

 2     policemen, but I did see that they were military policemen because they

 3     had white belts and military uniforms.

 4             Now whether they were on some kind of assignment there on the

 5     street, that I don't know.  I just passed by.

 6        Q.   You don't deny, do you, that the military police was involved in

 7     securing the Vuk Karadzic school?

 8        A.   I did not see them.  Now, who was securing the school?  That I

 9     don't know.  I personally did not see them.  I saw civilian police.  I

10     didn't go into the school, so I don't know who was inside.  I mean, not

11     the school itself.  The yard.  Didn't go into the yard.

12        Q.   And you're aware that hundreds and hundreds of men who were

13     detained in Bratunac on the night of the 13th of July were transported to

14     schools in Zvornik after which they were summarily executed.  You're

15     aware of that; right?

16        A.   I don't know when they were transferred and whether they were

17     executed.  I heard and saw on the media that that had happened, but I

18     don't have any personal knowledge about that.  I did not see anything

19     myself.  I handed over the convoy to the civilian police.  What the

20     civilian police did and when, I don't know because those people were no

21     longer under my authority.

22        Q.   And there's evidence in this case that there were wounded Muslims

23     who were admitted to the Milici hospital on the 13th of July, and you do

24     talk about some wounded Muslim men that were -- that surrendered or

25     picked up at Nova Kasaba.  Now these wounded Muslims who were admitted to

Page 32977

 1     the Milici hospital, they were transferred on the orders of the

 2     Main Staff to Zvornik.  Did you participate in escorting them there?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I know that I dressed the wounds of four or five

 4     people, and I called the medical unit which did arrive from the Milici

 5     hospital, and they transported them to the Milici hospital.  The Milici

 6     hospital was under the authority of the civilian administration; i.e.,

 7     the civilian police.

 8             On the 14th I was no longer there.  I don't know where they were

 9     transferred and when and what happened to them.  In any case, I put them

10     into an ambulance and sent them off to the hospital.  I included that

11     into my Official Note to show what I'd done on that day as the head of

12     patrol.

13             I found four or five wounded.  I personally found them -- or

14     rather, they were handed over to me.  I gave them first aid, and then I

15     called the medical service.  They sent an ambulance to -- to me, and I

16     sent them to the military hospital -- to the Milici hospital.  I did all

17     that in compliance with the regulations of the VRS.

18        Q.   And you said that you don't know where they were transferred to

19     and when and what happened to them.  Sir, you didn't learn that these

20     patients who were admitted to the Milici hospital were subsequently, save

21     for one of them, executed?  One of them who died at the hospital.

22        A.   I really don't know.  I know that one was seriously wounded.  I

23     believe that he succumbed to his wounds in the ambulance before he

24     reached the hospital.  He had two gun-shot wounds in the chest.  I can't

25     remember exactly where.  And as for the rest of them, I don't know

Page 32978

 1     because I had called an ambulance.  It was an ambulance of the civilian

 2     medical service, not the military medical service, and they were taken to

 3     the hospital which was not a military hospital but a normal civilian

 4     hospital, which means that the military police did not have any authority

 5     over the place.

 6        Q.   Let me go back momentarily to Nova Kasaba.  And in your

 7     statement, you talk about the buses that were transporting women and

 8     children that were passing by the Nova Kasaba stadium.  And you mention

 9     that you let some men from -- some of the prisoners board those buses.

10     That's right?

11        A.   Well, yes.  You know what?  I was there on my own with five

12     people that morning, so at first I did not even appreciate what had

13     occurred.  On the first day of patrol, I had a general order applicable

14     to the entire territory, and the purpose of my patrol was to maintain

15     peace and order.  I knew nothing of what would transpire later.

16             Around 10.00 or 11.00, if I'm not mistaken, buses started passing

17     by with civilian registration plates, and they were full of people,

18     women, children, and elderly.  The buses stopped, as far as I could tell,

19     because some of the detainees who were standing along the road recognised

20     some of the people on the buses and they didn't want to be separated from

21     each other.

22             I had a lot of prisoners and very few men who could provide

23     quality security.  I did not allow anybody to either get in the bus or

24     get off the bus, but I could not react.  Eventually a lot of my prisoners

25     did manage to get on the buses and were transported in the direction of

Page 32979

 1     Milici, although I tried to prevent that from happening.  Obviously they

 2     got on the buses without weapons.

 3        Q.   Now, that's the first time we actually hear that some prisoners

 4     were boarding the buses at Nova Kasaba, and what I'd like to know is

 5     these prisoners that you say boarded the buses, were these children, were

 6     these elderly persons, were these able-bodied men?  I mean, who were

 7     they?

 8        A.   Military able-bodied men who had been captured.  In Nova Kasaba

 9     as the buses were passing, by those people on the buses --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I did not want to interrupt the answer of the

12     witness, but council misstates it's the first time.  In paragraph 32 of

13     the statement is the discussion of this, and it clearly says that people

14     from the stadium got on the buses.  So that is a misstatement of the

15     record.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:  I'm not sure of where the misstatement is, but I'll

18     move on with my -- my questions.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Line 16:

20             "...that's the first time we actually hear that some prisoners

21     were boarding the buses at Nova Kasaba..."

22             It's in the statement.

23             MS. HASAN:  Well, yes, and I was in my initial questioning

24     asking -- I referenced the statement, so it's a reference to this, the

25     first time we, the Prosecution, hear that prisoners boarded buses at

Page 32980

 1     Nova Kasaba.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say you were referring to seeing it for the

 3     first time in the statement.

 4             MS. HASAN:  Yeah -- from -- yes, from this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   So -- okay.  So you say these were military able-bodied men that

 8     got on the buses.  Did you learn what happened to men that were on the

 9     buses that were also carrying the women and the children and the elderly

10     towards Milici onwards towards Kladanj?  Did you learn that the men were

11     separated near Tisca and they were subsequently summarily executed?

12        A.   I really don't know what happened next either to the buses or the

13     people, the civilians; women, children, elderly, and able-bodied men.  I

14     really don't know.  That was beyond my purview.  If I can remember well,

15     that place Tisca, near Sehovici, is almost 50 kilometres away from where

16     I was.  I don't know if I understood the name place well.

17        Q.   I think you understood Tisca and it's -- was near Luke.  In any

18     event, I can move on.

19             Now you have testified, and in your statement you discuss, the

20     members of UNPROFOR that were at the command in -- at Nova Kasaba.  And

21     you testified that they were having problems, and you said that:

22             "Well, they were having problems with some of our military units.

23     That's what they said."

24             And this was in relation to them having had their weapons and

25     vehicles and other equipment stolen from them.  You recall your testimony

Page 32981

 1     about that, yes?

 2        A.   Yes, I roughly remember.  One day or two days before -- or on

 3     that day, they came to us several times, seeking assistance from us, from

 4     the military police, that is.  They apparently had a problem.  They

 5     didn't speak to me personally.  They spoke to my command and the duty

 6     officer.  As far as I could understand, they had been stopped somewhere

 7     in the Milici sector.  One vehicle and weapons were taken away from them

 8     or something like that.  In any case, they sought assistance from us.

 9     They sought protection.

10        Q.   Well, First Lieutenant Vincentius Egbers testified in this court

11     about what had transpired, and he complained to Major Malinic that their

12     vehicles, helmets, their flak jackets had been stolen along the road

13     between Potocari and Nova Kasaba, and what he said was:

14             "Well," --

15             And this is in his testimony during this case at transcript page

16     13384, lines 5 to 10.  He said:

17             "Well, along the road there were Bosnian Serb troops facing the

18     enclave on the road, and when they saw our vehicle approach, they would

19     point their AK-47 at us, so we had to stop, and they took what they

20     wanted, and they just put their gun on our heads and we have to give it

21     to them."

22             So, sir, you have just said that you, in fact, never actually

23     spoke to them or -- directly about what had happened, and Mr. Egbers

24     testified that these were Bosnian Serb troops.  So in fact, you have no

25     basis for saying these were paramilitary units?

Page 32982

 1        A.   I did not speak to them directly because we couldn't speak each

 2     other's language.  But as far as I could understand from our officers who

 3     had spoken to them, a vehicle had indeed been taken away from them.

 4     That's why they sought assistance from us.  You are referring to an

 5     AK-47.  Our soldiers were not issued with those rifles.  Our M72 was

 6     indeed a modification of the AK-47, that's what our soldiers had, but I

 7     really don't know who had stopped them.  But there were also

 8     paramilitaries.  Indeed, there were.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But are you not certain that it was the

10     paramilitaries who pointed the guns at the UNPROFOR people?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm not sure.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Neither can you say -- can you deny

13     that they were military people, members of the VRS?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say either one or the

15     other, because I really don't know who stopped them.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MS. HASAN:

18        Q.   Now, when you were -- when you were patrolling the road, securing

19     the road, you had set up a check-point on that road.  Isn't that the

20     case?

21        A.   I set up a check-point in the morning immediately after the first

22     attack against me.  It was not a check-point.  I just left a military

23     policeman on the road as a scout.  I established radio communication with

24     him.  His role was not to stop vehicles or ask for people's IDs.  He was

25     just there to observe the situation because there was a good view of the

Page 32983

 1     forest, and his brief was to inform me if he saw a large group of

 2     soldiers.  That's what I established as a check-point or, rather, as an

 3     observation post.

 4        Q.   Well, there's evidence in this case, and it's testimony from

 5     Lieutenant Egbers, and this is P01629, and he says he was stopped at a

 6     roadblock before entering the village of Nova Kasaba just south of the

 7     town.  This is when he was en route back from Kladanj after transporting

 8     refugees there.

 9             And he describes how he was stopped by infantrymen who were

10     pointing their AK-47s at them, that he saw ten other Dutch UN troops who

11     were sitting on the side of the road who had been stopped and were, at

12     that moment, guarded by Bosnian Serb soldiers, and that four UN Mercedes

13     light vehicles were there on the side of the road.

14             Now these DutchBat soldiers were held there overnight and they

15     weren't free to leave until the next day; isn't that correct?

16        A.   I really don't know.  First of all, you don't know which town

17     you're referring to when you say "south of town."  I'm trying to think

18     what check-point could that have been.  Could you please assist me and

19     tell me the name of that town?

20        Q.   South of Nova Kasaba town.

21        A.   Is that in the direction of Zvornik or in the direction of

22     Milici?  If it is in the direction of Zvornik, that was then under the

23     authority of the Zvornik Brigade -- or the Bratunac Brigade, I can't

24     remember exactly.  That was not under our jurisdiction.

25             My patrol radius was to secure the command post of the battalion

Page 32984

 1     of military police, and that was approximately 600 metres up to the

 2     stadium, to the curve in the direction of Nova Kasaba, and in the

 3     direction of Susnjari settlement near Milici.

 4             If we're talking about the check-point in Konjevic Polje, then

 5     that would have been under the authority of the Zvornik Brigade.  But I

 6     believe that in Konjevic Polje --

 7        Q.   I can just stop you.  Lieutenant Egbers is talking about a

 8     check-point that's outside the command of the military police, it's

 9     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and that's the road that you were

10     patrolling.  That's the area that your unit was patrolling; isn't that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes, but we were only patrolling.  We did not have check-points.

13     The civilian police in Konjevic Polje had a check-point closest to us.

14     We co-operated with them when we patrolled the area.  The military police

15     of the protection regiment did not have check-points.  All we did was

16     patrolling.

17        Q.   Would you agree with me that the DutchBat members who were at the

18     command were not free to leave until the next day?

19        A.   As far as we were concerned, we never brought them in.  They came

20     to us of their own free will.  They slept with us.  They played cards

21     with us; with Major Malinic at the command, that is.  They sought

22     protection from us.

23             As for the military police battalion, our own battalion, they

24     were not taken prisoners by us.  They were not brought in by us.  They

25     shared our dorms, our bedrooms.

Page 32985

 1        Q.   Well, let's look at what Lieutenant Egbers says.  And this is

 2     P1629, e-court page 47, please.  Because he describes what happened to

 3     them when they tried to leave.  And he says -- if we just scroll down.

 4             And at line 15, he is asked:

 5             "Did you direct two of your APCs that had been detained at the

 6     roadblock nevertheless to return to Potocari?

 7             "A. Well, there were no APCs.  They were just light Mercedes

 8     vehicles.  We had four Mercedes vehicles with us at the time, and I

 9     ordered three of them, with UN troops, to go towards Nova Kasaba and try

10     to reach Potocari.

11             "Q. What happened to those soldiers and what happened to those

12     vehicles?

13             "A. Well, about 200 metres, they were stopped by men carrying

14     AK-47s.  They were pointed at their heads, and they had to all go back to

15     the school in just one Mercedes instead of three.  They took two

16     Mercedes, and they came back with just one Mercedes."

17             Do you contest Lieutenant Egbers's account of what happened?

18        A.   I can't contest his account.  I wasn't there.  I don't know what

19     happened to him.  He did not mention the military police but some armed

20     men.  They came to us three or four times and finally they stayed with

21     us.  They came in two Mercedes Puch vehicles, and then in the evening on

22     the 12th they left with just one and never returned.  And two members and

23     one Mercedes vehicle stayed with us.  I don't know what their role was.

24     I wouldn't be able to tell you.  I suppose that my commander would know

25     that better.

Page 32986

 1        Q.   I'm going to move into the last area I'm going to discuss with

 2     you, and that is --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, can I just ask a question.  Do

 4     you know why the one Mercedes stayed with you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two members stayed behind on the

 6     12th in the afternoon.  They spent the night.  And then on the following

 7     day when they left, as far as I could understand, they were afraid

 8     because those Mercedes were not armoured vehicles.  There was shooting

 9     all the way to Potocari.  They wanted us to give them an armoured vehicle

10     for their transportation to Potocari.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Hasan.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   In your statement, and this is D926, it's the very last

14     paragraph, 41 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I meanwhile ask another question.

16             Did you make any arrangements as how to return the vehicle they

17     left behind to them?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were given a certificate by

19     the battalion command for that vehicle that was left behind.  As far as I

20     can remember, I stayed with the military police battalion until the very

21     end.  That vehicle was always with us.  IFOR troops came and nobody ever

22     reclaimed that vehicle.  I believe that all the traces of that vehicle

23     were eventually lost.  They stayed with the -- it stayed with the VRS.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you seen that certificate?  Did you read

25     it?

Page 32987

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you seen it at all, even if you don't read it?

 3     Have you seen that it was handed out to them?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the office, in the

 5     commander's office, and since I was the one who transported them to

 6     Potocari on the commander's order, I saw that they were signing

 7     something.  There was an officer whose rank I don't know.  They actually

 8     drafted a document, but I don't know what kind of document that was.  In

 9     any case, both of them put their names on that document.  They both

10     signed the document, and I don't know what it was actually.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You mean the two UNPROFOR members?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  One UNPROFOR member and my

13     commander.  That's who I meant when I said that they signed a document of

14     some kind.  I only suppose that it was a hand-over or a take-over

15     document.

16             The second UNPROFOR member was standing by my combat vehicle

17     waiting for the other to join him after I had been ordered to transport

18     the two of them safely to Potocari.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So that it was a receipt is just an assumption.  You

20     know that a document was signed by two persons, at least you saw that,

21     not knowing specifically what the document was about?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put another question.

Page 32988

 1             With respect to these UNPROFOR members, if I understood you

 2     correctly, two of them -- they came in two vehicles, two Mercedes Puch

 3     vehicles, to your place?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And some of them went back with one UNPROFOR

 6     vehicle?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was on the 12th, in the

 8     afternoon or late afternoon.  They went, and I don't know in which

 9     direction they travelled, but, in any case, they left us.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And they were not afraid because of the heavy

11     fighting and shooting to go with their not-armoured vehicle?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was on the 12th.  On that day,

13     on the 12th, there was no fighting in Kasaba.  Fighting started only in

14     the morning on the 13th.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why did the others stay overnight?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  Probably my

17     commander knows or probably the operative officer who co-operated with

18     them.  I suppose the two of them would know better than I do.  I don't

19     know.

20             However, from what I heard, they had requested security from us

21     that morning, and then they left, and then they came coming back on that

22     day.  I don't know why.  I [Realtime transcript read in error "he"] did

23     hear a story that some soldiers had stopped them and confiscated their

24     equipment and the vehicle, but that was all beyond me, so I didn't pay

25     too much attention to what -- to what they were saying.  I suppose that

Page 32989

 1     our security officers had much more to do with that because that was

 2     their line of work.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just let me here.

 5             You say they came to you to ask for security, then they left

 6     without security, and then they come back again.  Why would they leave if

 7     they were -- they came to you because of security reasons and then leave

 8     without that security being there?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they asked us for

10     security.  However, then, we did not have the forces to provide them with

11     this security.  The command and the commander were there, and I was there

12     with five or six soldiers, and perhaps there were five or six soldiers

13     from the quartermasters, the cooks and so on.  So we could not provide

14     them security.  So three or four times they came and went back again and

15     talked to my commander, and finally they left but these two stayed on.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] While we're still on the screen,

18     page 67, line 2, my colleague, who is following the B/C/S, believes there

19     may have been confusion as to who heard the story that some soldiers had

20     stopped them and confiscated their equipment.  So if Your Honours would

21     perhaps ask the witness to repeat what he said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I read to the witness what is given us as an

23     interpretation of his words and ask him whether that's correct.

24             I read a few lines to you, Mr. Subotic.  You said:

25             "However, from what I heard, they had requested security from us

Page 32990

 1     that morning, and then they left, and then they came coming back on that

 2     day.  I don't know why.  He did hear a story that some soldiers had

 3     stopped them..."

 4             Is that what you said?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that day on the 12th, I heard

 6     that they were stopped somewhere by some soldiers.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that where I read "he did hear," that

 8     you intended to say "I did hear a story"?  Is it you that heard that

 9     story?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   So in your statement at paragraph 41, you provide that you are

15     certain that no unit or individual took part in the operation linked to

16     Srebrenica and also that the individual members of the 65th Motorised

17     Protection Regiment did not go to that area, including Potocari, in the

18     period between 10 and 15 July 1995.

19             So as a starting point, what is it that you mean by "the

20     operation linked to Srebrenica"?  What were you referring to?

21        A.   Well, I mentioned operation because probably somebody asked me

22     about Operation Srebrenica.  That is what was happening then and it was

23     the Srebrenica Brigade.

24             As for soldiers, I only went there twice on my own with three of

25     my soldiers.  Once I went to Bratunac when escorting the convoy, and the

Page 32991

 1     other time I went with three soldiers to Potocari in order to escort the

 2     UNPROFOR soldiers.  That what is what I can say about our military police

 3     battalion.  As for the line of work of the battalion of the military

 4     police, it was in Nova Kasaba.

 5             Now, there were some units of the protection regiment that were

 6     out in the field.  Now was it Treskavica, the Sarajevo front, or

 7     whatever?  I don't know.  At any rate, the protection regiment was

 8     engaged somewhere, but I don't know exactly.  I think it was

 9     Treskavica -- or was it Borika, was it Treskavica?  They were somewhere

10     out there.  I cannot remember.

11        Q.   Well, your statement here is specific in some ways, at least in

12     so far as it says the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment did not go to

13     that area, including Potocari, between 10 and 15 July.  In fact, if we

14     can just very briefly turn to 65 ter 32176.  And this is the testimony

15     given by Dragoslav Trisic, assistant commander for rear services in the

16     Bratunac Brigade, who is going to testify in this court shortly for the

17     Defence.  And he testified in Blagojevic, and you can see that on this

18     first page down at line 15, I'll read that out to you.  He's asked about

19     the presence of soldiers from the protection regiment in Potocari on the

20     12th.  And so he's asked:

21             "Q. And you told Mr. Manning that you saw the protection --

22     soldiers from the protection regiment in Potocari on that day.  Do you

23     recall seeing any ... protection regiment soldiers in Potocari on the

24     12th?  I can point it out to you if you want help -- your recollection

25     refreshed."

Page 32992

 1             He's then given a page reference, and he answers:

 2             "Yes, that's what I said.

 3             "Q. So did you see soldiers from the protection regiment in

 4     Potocari on the 12th.

 5             "A. Yes, that's what I said."

 6             Now if we just turn the page, he's asked.

 7             "Q. Now, the protection regiment --"

 8             At line 10:

 9             "Q. The protection regiment you're talking about, you say that

10     it's a Main Staff unit; right?

11             "A. Yes.

12             "Q. And did they have a base that was located near Bratunac?

13     Konjevic Polje/Nova Kasaba area.

14             "A. Maybe they were in Nova Kasaba.  I can't remember exactly,

15     but it does ring a bell, Nova Kasaba."

16             So, Mr. Subotic, you don't dispute that the 65th

17     Protection Regiment was, in fact, in Potocari on the 12th of July as

18     Mr. Trisic testified to?

19        A.   I don't know that any of the members of the 65th Motorised

20     Regiment was in the area of Potocari.  Now, the protection regiment is a

21     unit that includes a military police battalion, a light artillery

22     battalion, a mortar company, a tank company.  I know that then the

23     regiment was involved in the area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

24             I don't know how this colonel or whoever he was could recognise

25     soldiers of the protection regiment when we never wore a single emblem.

Page 32993

 1     So how could he recognise us there at all?  How did he know?  He just had

 2     to be with one of our commanders and then he'd know that it was that

 3     unit, but I don't see here -- I mean, he doesn't even know the exact

 4     location, it seems, where we were.  He thinks that we're from

 5     Nova Kasaba.

 6             What I do know, as a junior officer from the military police

 7     battalion, is that we were -- we, the regiment, were involved in the

 8     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Treskavica, Borika, whatever, I don't know.  As

 9     for the battalion, the battalion command of the military police, I was

10     there on my own with five or six soldiers, and five or six people from

11     the quartermaster's corps, and perhaps two or three other people.  So

12     it's just a mere patrol, that is to say, providing security there.

13             I really don't see how he could have recognised us as being there

14     because we never wore a single emblem with the name of our unit.  That is

15     to say, we were unit without any emblem, without any patch of that kind.

16             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I would say I have

17     between five and ten minutes left.  Do I continue or do we take the break

18     and resume thereafter?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm also looking at the -- in the direction of the

20     Defence.  I think that Mr. Mladic is gesturing on what he suggests we

21     should do.

22             MR. IVETIC:  He is asking that we continue.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MS. HASAN:

25        Q.   So staying with, then, your certainty about what the

Page 32994

 1     65th Motorised Protection Regiment was doing, could we take a look at

 2     P1696, please.  And what this is, it's a daily combat report, it's from

 3     the 16th of July, from commander Vidoje Blagojevic.  He is reporting to

 4     the Drina Corps command.

 5             And in paragraph 1, if we could just make that a little bit

 6     bigger in the B/C/S, Blagojevic reports that the enemy forces, crushed in

 7     groups, are trying to escape from the area of Bokcin Potok, Mratinici,

 8     Pobudje, and that they're breaking out into the Pobudje-Konjevic

 9     Polje-Dusanovo Cerska direction.  You see that there?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now he talks about having received statements taken from

12     enemy soldiers, that there about 2.000 in the wider area of the village

13     of Pobudje, and he reports on a search operation.  And in paragraph 2,

14     about midway through, he says:

15             "During the day the brigade commander visited all units which are

16     blocking the enemy retreat (the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, units

17     of the 65th Protection Regiment, parts of the MUP, and the

18     5th Engineering Battalion), defined their tasks and organised their joint

19     action and communications."

20             Do you contest the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment's

21     involvement in this -- as Blagojevic sets out here?

22        A.   A moment ago you mentioned the 12th to me, and here there's a

23     reference to the 16th.  I really cannot deny this, but I cannot confirm

24     it either because I was not in the unit at that time.  I explained to you

25     a moment ago what the situation was on the 12th, and you asked me about

Page 32995

 1     the 12th of July.  And this telegram, this report, whatever you call it,

 2     has to do with the 16th, as far as I can see.  So I don't know what the

 3     unit was doing on the 16th.

 4        Q.   And you now have mentioned again that you weren't there.  Where

 5     were you?

 6        A.   On the 14th, after seeing off two UNPROFOR soldiers to Potocari,

 7     I returned to Nova Kasaba.  Before that, it had been agreed that I would

 8     go on leave to my home with my commander and two other men, because my

 9     late brother was an active-duty officer of the military police battalion,

10     he got killed, and his birthday was on the 16th and we have this custom

11     of going to the cemetery on that day for a memorial service.  So somebody

12     went, with all due respect, to the homes of those members of our unit

13     that had died in combat.

14             I left on the 14th and I handed over my vehicle and I reported to

15     Lieutenant Jevdjevic, and he personally drove me to Milici to the bus

16     station on the 14th in the afternoon and I went home to Sarajevo, and I

17     was on leave for about seven or eight days.  And afterwards I returned to

18     Crna Rijeka, the Main Staff, around the 20th, the 21st, something like

19     that because I assumed a new duty, commander, komandir of the security

20     for the Main Staff.  That is what I know.  I really don't know about the

21     16th.

22             Otherwise, we were forbidden to discuss movements of our unit

23     when we were on leave, when we were off, so I didn't express any interest

24     in where my unit was and I wasn't nearby either.  My house is about 200

25     kilometres away from the base of my unit.

Page 32996

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a clarification.  If you left for Sarajevo on

 2     leave on the 14th, how do you know about the movements of the

 3     65th Motorised Protection Regiment on the 15th?  Because you claimed that

 4     between the 10th and the 15th they were not anywhere near Potocari.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say anything about the

 6     15th.  The Prosecutor asked me about the 12th.  On the 12th I was at the

 7     battalion command and I know that my unit was somewhere in the area of

 8     the Sarajevo Romanija field --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Stop.  Can I stop you.  Look at paragraph 41 of

10     your statement, sir.  If it can be shown to you.

11             MS. HASAN:  That's D926.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you see that last paragraph?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean paragraph 40?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  41.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the 10th and the 15th, yes,

16     I see that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Now can you answer my question.  Do you want

18     me to repeat it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can answer.

20             This just so happened -- I really left on the 14th.  I mean, I

21     wasn't even looking.  There were quite a few mistakes in this statement,

22     even my year of birth was misrecorded, so I didn't really get to notice

23     everything.  I'll tell you exactly.  I was in the battalion for 15 days.

24     Until the 14th.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  My question to you is - which you have

Page 32997

 1     still have not answered - how then do you know of the movements of the

 2     regiment on the 15th?  You're in Sarajevo by that time.

 3             How can you claim that they were not in Potocari on the 15th if

 4     you were not there with them?  You were in Sarajevo.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood your question and

 6     that's exactly what I have been telling you.  I meant the 14th.  Now why

 7     they typed 15th here, I don't know.  There were many mistakes in my

 8     statement.  I went home on the 14th.  So what I meant to say here was

 9     between the 10th and the 14th.  The day when I left.  I left on the

10     afternoon of the 14th.  And I see here that it does say the 15th.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, when I started your testimony here, you were

12     asked about whether there are any corrections you wanted to make to the

13     statement.  You said you made this correction to your date of birth.

14     It's not 1965.  It's 1972.  And you said that was all you could correct,

15     and you swore to the truthfulness of your statement, and that statement

16     says 15th.  Do you have any comment?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took the oath and I am telling

18     the truth, and the truth is that I left on the 14th.  And there were some

19     corrections that were made here.  However, I glanced through all of this.

20     I stand by the 14th.  If I made a mistake, I really am sorry.  I

21     apologise about the 15th.  I personally handed over the combat vehicle to

22     Colonel -- to Lieutenant Jevdjevic and also my soldiers, and that was on

23     the 14th.  And I think that I testified last time when I was here at

24     The Hague Tribunal that on the 14th I went home.  Believe me, this is

25     just a mistaken date.

Page 32998

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I draw your attention to the fact that this

 3     date appears just above your signature.  When you signed that, you should

 4     have noticed it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mistake.  I do apologise.  But I

 6     told you during my last testimony, I think you can see that, I really did

 7     say that I left on the 14th.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We have not looked at your last testimony.  We're

 9     looking at your statement.  We're not just reading from somewhere else

10     what you said, so you should be very accurate.

11             Ms. Hasan.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   Just finally, Witness, to be clear then, during the period of

14     your absence as well, you have no idea what your unit or the

15     65th Motorised Protection Regiment was involved in?

16        A.   Yes, from the afternoon of the 14th when I went home onwards, I

17     did not know what my unit was doing.

18             MS. HASAN:  I have nothing further, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             May I take that there are further questions for the witness after

21     the break?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Seven to ten minutes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But we'll take the break first.

24             Witness, we'd like to have you back after the break, and it is

25     soon we'll conclude your testimony.  You may follow the usher.

Page 32999

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, before we take the break, I noticed that

 4     you drew the attention of the witness in page 68, line 15/16, to

 5     paragraph 41 of his statement.

 6             Later, page 71, line 19, you started by saying so staying with

 7     your certainty about what the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was

 8     doing, could we have a look at another document, and then you are

 9     suggesting that that contradicts what he said.  But, of course, his

10     certainty is limited to the 10th -- the period between the 10th and the

11     15th of July.  And I think that, happily enough, the witness was aware

12     that the document you had shown him was a daily report of the 16th of

13     July, and he could draw your attention to the fact that what is found in

14     that daily combat report is not covered by the certainty you reminded him

15     of, and that was not entirely fair to the witness.  Irrespective of the

16     whole other issue of whether it was the 10th to the 15th or the 10th to

17     the 14th, the 16th was certainly outside the time-frame for which he had

18     expressed his certainty.

19             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I may have misunderstood his statement

20     because what I read was, and I maybe not very well sought clarification

21     of it, was him saying that:  I'm certain that no unit or individual took

22     part in an operation linked to Srebrenica, and also to me I read those as

23     being disjunctive, but perhaps --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked him about the operation about Srebrenica,

25     and you apparently accepted an answer which was pretty vague.  And under

Page 33000

 1     those circumstances, you shouldn't have taken the risk and you should

 2     have sought to clarify it first.

 3             We'll take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.30 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.51 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

 7     courtroom.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, while we wait for the witness, there

 9     is one matter that I've had a discussion with Prosecution counsel on.  It

10     relates to today's testimony at approximately temporary transcript

11     page 58 about the prisoners at Nova Kasaba being allowed to leave on

12     buses with civilians, and I believe the Prosecution is willing to

13     stipulate that the witness testified the same way in 2008 in the Popovic

14     trial at transcript page 24988 of that trial.  And if that's so, then I

15     won't have questions on that area to present with this witness.  It will

16     cut my redirect short.

17             MS. HASAN:  Yeah, that's correct, Your Honours, and I withdraw

18     the suggestion.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And the Chamber appreciates very much that you tried

22     to resolve the matter without adding to the time needed for the

23     witness.

24             May I take it, and I'm looking at both you and Mr. Ivetic,

25     Mr. Lukic, that there's not another witness waiting for the last ten

Page 33001

 1     minutes for today or is there?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  There are no other witnesses in

 3     The Hague.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And no videolinks, I should say, also.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, there is just two matters that I can

 7     raise after the conclusion of this witness's testimony.  One relates to

 8     the telephone notebook that we discussed yesterday, and then another

 9     matter that requires us to be in private session.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MS. HASAN:  They're both very brief.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  They're both very brief.  And since Mr. Ivetic

13     announced that he needed seven to ten minutes, I think then we would have

14     ten minutes left for that.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And I might be able to assist even further.  I'm

16     withdrawing the objection to the excerpt from the telephone booklet that

17     was mentioned yesterday in court.  If that is the matter that was being

18     raised, I think that takes care of that.

19             MS. HASAN:  I think that resolves that and we'll just --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It resolves one of the problems.

21             MS. HASAN:  It at least resolves one of them, and we can deal

22     with that.  That was P7201, MFI.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the telephone directory, P -- I see

24     something different from what I heard.  Could you please repeat the

25     number so that it's correct.

Page 33002

 1             MS. HASAN:  P7201.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is hereby admitted into evidence.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 6        Q.   Sir, just a few questions for you.  First of all, would members

 7     of General Mladic's personal security detail of body-guards, would they

 8     have been members of the 65th Protection Regiment?

 9        A.   Yes, the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment provided the security

10     detail and I was one of them.

11        Q.   Do you permit the possibility that General Mladic's body-guards

12     may have been in Potocari with General Mladic?

13        A.   That's possible, yes.  I watched some excerpts.  I saw my

14     colleagues with him, yes.

15        Q.   Now, you were asked yesterday about Major Malinic saying that a

16     detained Muslim had been killed at the Nova Kasaba football stadium.  You

17     said that this was not known to you.  If it had been a military policeman

18     from your five-man patrol who was involved in this incident, would you

19     have you expected there to be a report given to you per the rules of the

20     military police?

21        A.   If that happened to the soldier who I had commanded on that day,

22     I would have had to write a report and inform the commander about that.

23        Q.   Now I want to focus on your travel to Bratunac with the column of

24     vehicles going from Nova Kasaba to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac.

25     You said today that it had already started getting dark, and that was at

Page 33003

 1     temporary transcript page 51, line 12.  Did the combat vehicle you were

 2     riding in utilise any night -- any lights that night and, if so, what

 3     kind?

 4        A.   When leaving, that is to say when we were escorting the convoy,

 5     we used normal lights.  However, afterwards, we used war lights because

 6     when returning, we were ambushed, and I ordered that all lights be turned

 7     off and that we drive under war lights.

 8        Q.   Could you explain for those of us unfamiliar with war lights how

 9     much -- how far light is cast by war lights?

10        A.   Well, a metre or two simply so that you could see the road if

11     you're driving along an asphalt road, or also to see the vehicle in front

12     so that there wouldn't be any kind of collision.  It's simply so that

13     drivers could see where they are.

14        Q.   Okay.  Sir, on behalf of General Mladic, I thank you for

15     answering my questions, and that completes my redirect examination.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

17             Any further questions, Ms. Hasan.

18             MS. HASAN:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Subotic, this concludes your evidence.  I'd like

20     to thank you very much not only for coming to The Hague but also for

21     being so patient in filling the open moments caused by the videolinks.  I

22     want to ask [sic] you for having answered all the questions that were put

23     to you, and I wish you a safe return home again.

24             You may follow the usher.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 33004

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there's one matter remaining in private

 4     session, Ms. Hasan, which you would raise.

 5             We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33005











11  Pages 33005-33010 redacted.  Private session.















Page 33011

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 33012

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 4     12th of March, 9.00 in the morning - not 9.30 - in this same courtroom,

 5     I, where we will hear the next witness through a videolink.

 6             We stand adjourned.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

 9                           March, 2015, at 9.00 a.m.