Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33013

 1                           Thursday, 12 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminary matters were announced.  The Chamber received, it

12     was filed yesterday, a waiver of attendance signed by Mr. Mladic.  He

13     waives his right to attend trial today, and he announces that he'll be

14     back on the 16th of March, which is next Monday.

15             Could we verify whether the videolink through which we'll hear

16     the testimony of the next witness is functioning well.

17             Madam Registrar can you hear me, can you see me?

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

19     hereby confirm that we can see and we can hear you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Could you inform us who is present in

21     the videolink room.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, apart from myself,

23     there is an ICTY technical officer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

Page 33014

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- no protective measures, Mr. Rodic being

 3     your next witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you escort Mr. Rodic into the

 6     videolink room.

 7                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Rodic.

 9             Mr. Rodic, can you see us?  Can you hear us?  I ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, everything is fine.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rodic, before you give evidence the Rules

12     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

13     that solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you by

14     Madam Registrar.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I solemnly declare that I

16     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  MISO RODIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           [Witness testified via videolink]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Rodic.  Please be seated.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rodic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

23     You'll soon see him on your screen.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 33015

 1                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, good morning.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Did you provide a written statement to the members of the Mladic

 5     Defence team, Mr. Rodic?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Could you please state your name for the record but do it slowly.

 8        A.   Miso Rodic.

 9        Q.   Before we start, I would like to inform the Trial Chamber about

10     some corrections in your statement.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, in paragraph 2, in English version --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you give the document number please.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Please, can we have 1D1713 on our screens,

14     please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it wouldn't surprise me if you would

16     correct the 35th of May.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, exactly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any better number for that in

19     paragraph 2?

20             MR. LUKIC:  I do.  It's 31st of May.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  31st of May.  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  And paragraphs 30 and 31

23     reference -- we have reference to three documents -- actually, two

24     different documents, but none of these references should be included in

25     those paragraphs.

Page 33016

 1             So one of the documents is mentioned in paragraph 6 and it should

 2     be there but not in paragraphs 30 and 31.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is that?  What document is that?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It's 65 ter 18387.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  In both paragraphs 30 and 31.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  And also paragraph 65 ter 1D02907.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off unnecessary microphones.

12     Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have page 1 on our screens, please, of -- from

14     the same document.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, on the screen before you, you can see

16     the first page of the document.  Do you see the signature?  Do you

17     recognise it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Whose signature is it; do you know?

20        A.   This is my signature.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last page of

23     the document, please.

24        Q.   Do you see the signature and do you recognise it?

25        A.   Again, this is my signature.

Page 33017

 1        Q.   Mr. Rodic, did you have an occasion to review your statement?

 2     Has everything been recorded just as you stated before the Mladic Defence

 3     team?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what is contained in the statement, is it truthful and

 6     accurate?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

 9     answers be the same, in principle?

10        A.   The content of my answers would be the same.  The wording may

11     differ, but the content would be the same.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we would like to tender

14     Mr. Rodic's statement into evidence.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I understand it's being tendered confidentially and

16     we have no objection to that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, reference is made to a person.  It needs

18     to be confidential.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1713 receives number D930.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D930 is admitted, under seal.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I will read the statement summary for Mr. ...

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- and please keep in mind, Mr. Lukic, that

25     it's especially because of paragraph 31 that the document is admitted

Page 33018

 1     under seal.  Please keep that in mind also when reading your summary.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I will, Your Honour, and --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- one second, please.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your microphone is on, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I will first read statement summary of

 8     Mr. Rodic with your leave, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Miso Rodic took part in the war since 21st November, 1992,

12     when he was mobilised as a reserve member of the JNA.  First he went to

13     the war theatre in Croatia.

14             In February 1992, the brigade command sent him to the 1st Krajina

15     Corps commission for the preparation of the rules regarding the rights of

16     fighters.  He performed this duty until 31st of May, 1991 -- 1992.  After

17     his return to Prijedor to his brigade, he served in the morale,

18     religious, legal, and political affairs organ.  In early May 1992, he was

19     temporarily resettled to the intelligence and security organ, and this

20     can be considered the beginning of his engagement in the intelligence

21     organ.

22             Mr. Rodic will testify about his knowledge regarding military

23     organisation of Muslims and Croats in the area of Prijedor.

24             Mr. Rodic was not present in Prijedor on 30th of May, 1992, when

25     the attack on Prijedor took place.  But immediately after the first

Page 33019

 1     members of the Green Berets taking part in the attack on Prijedor were

 2     captured, he took part in their interrogation and found out about their

 3     objectives and intentions concerning the manner of taking over power in

 4     Prijedor.

 5             During the questioning of the 2nd lieutenant Asim Muhic, he found

 6     out that Mr. Muhic had taken part in the training of Green Berets members

 7     while being a member of the 6th Sana Infantry Brigade of the JNA, which

 8     held positions in Jasenovac.

 9             Mr. Rodic interrogated Mr. Cirkin, professional soldier, who was

10     deputy to the military commander in Kozarac, as well as other members of

11     Green Berets.

12             During the interrogation Sead Cirkin categorically stated that

13     neither the Crisis Staff of Kozarac nor the Green Berets command had been

14     in favour of any peaceful solution, and they were certain that they would

15     win the armed conflict.  He stressed that he would have been successful

16     in that endeavour if he had been given the necessary weapons.

17             According to the information available to Mr. Rodic, the

18     43rd Motorised Brigade postponed the use of force, thus creating the

19     opportunity for the Crisis Staff of the Muslim people in the territory of

20     Prijedor municipality to accept the existing situation; i.e.,

21     Republika Srpska and the VRS.  In that case, all the ethnicities in the

22     territory of Prijedor municipality would be guaranteed safety.

23             Mr. Rodic will testify about his knowledge about collection

24     centres in the area of Prijedor and about the incidents alleged in the

25     indictment.

Page 33020

 1             And that concludes statement summary -- summary statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you have any further questions,

 3     Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5             First, we would call -- and I spoke with my colleague this

 6     morning, Mr. Traldi, that we should go through the list of members of

 7     group Slavko Ecimovic lead, so we need 1D2907 on our screens.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, this document is attached to your

 9     statement.  Did you get involved in the drafting of the list of those

10     people who had participated in the attack on Prijedor?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How many people could you identify as attackers on Prijedor?

13        A.   As far as the number of Green Berets soldiers are concerned,

14     there were about 150 of them, according to Muhic's statement.  We started

15     collecting intelligence to be able to name those 150.  We arrived at

16     total of 112 names of the people for whom there was strong evidence that

17     they had participated in the attack on Prijedor.  There were four other

18     names but their identification was not final.  In other words, 116 people

19     have been identified based on several sources.

20        Q.   Do you recognise any of the names on the first page?  Did you

21     interrogate any of these people?

22        A.   I recognise the name of Slavko Ecimovic; Nedzad Babic, who was my

23     neighbour; Kemal Alagic, also known as Divljak, I interrogated him in

24     late 1995 towards the end of the war.  And as for the others I don't

25     think --

Page 33021

 1        Q.   Did you interrogate Slavko Ecimovic also?

 2        A.   No, I did not.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender this document at this point,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're tendering the document but you

 7     were speaking when the previous translation was still ongoing.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D2907 receives number D931.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D931 is admitted.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And now I would like to ask you something else.  We saw what you

13     did in the course of the war.  And what do you do today?

14        A.   I am the chief of the Department for the Protection of Veterans

15     in the city administration of the town of Prijedor.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's repetitious, Mr. Lukic, because that's

17     written in paragraph 1.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, you're right.

19             And now I would like to call up document D767.

20        Q.   This is a cover letter which accompanied a number of documents

21     that I'm going to show you.  I'm going to ask you about what you see at

22     the bottom of the page, where it says department Chief Miso Rodic.  Is

23     this your signature?

24        A.   Not mine.  It is a signature of an authorised official in my

25     department who is authorised to sign documents like this, and I know that

Page 33022

 1     this document was indeed dispatched from my department.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell us the name of that person?

 3        A.   Nenad Babic.  He is a desk officer in my department.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the following

 6     page.

 7        Q.   This is a list of servicemen and the book, log-book number is 1A

 8     to K.  Can you please tell us what is VOB-8 record?

 9        A.   What we see is a copy of the VOB-8 original that I keep in my

10     department for the 43rd Motorised Brigade.  It is a record maintained by

11     a unit about the members of that unit.  There are lists after this page

12     in printed version, and these records are maintained manually by entering

13     the names into already prescribed forms.  This shows when a soldier

14     joined the unit, when he left the unit, and also provides data about

15     every soldier's military specialty, i.e., whether is he an infantryman or

16     an artillery man, and so on and so forth.

17             The record is kept for as long as the unit exists, whether in

18     peacetime or in wartime, when it is deployed in action or whether it is

19     engaged in manoeuvres.

20        Q.   I am making a short pause after your answer to give the

21     interpreters the chance to interpret your words properly.

22        A.   That's not a problem.  If necessary, I can slow down.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the next page on our screens, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe if we had the B/C/S list only and then we

25     can enlarge it.

Page 33023

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, now I would like you to look at the

 3     document in front of you.  I need your explanation about a line -- or

 4     rather, an explanation of all the entries in that line from left to

 5     right.  Just take any name and tell us about that person.

 6        A.   The first person is Ljubomir Aramanda.  I don't know whether I'm

 7     reading this well.

 8        Q.   Yes, you are.

 9        A.   This is a printed version.  In the original, this is a form.  So

10     the first is the number, this number 243.  The second column contains the

11     first name, the last name, and the father's name.  So this is an entry

12     for Ljubomir Aramanda whose father's name was Sreten.  After that, the

13     column depicts date of birth and where he was born.  The next column is

14     about the municipality from which he was sent to serve in the army and

15     the persons's identity number.  The following column depicts the person's

16     rank and his military specialty.  In this case, 11301 denotes a certain

17     specialty.  I don't know what it is; in other words, it says whether that

18     person is an infantryman or artillery man or a communications man or any

19     other branch of the military and what knowledges he acquired during his

20     compulsory military service.

21        Q.   And the next column, the date of joining?

22        A.   No, no.  The next column is the war unit.  8090 is the number of

23     the war unit that the person joins.

24        Q.   The next column?

25        A.   After that is the date of joining.  That's the date when the

Page 33024

 1     person came and joined the unit.  And the next column depicts the day

 2     when the person left.  We can see that the date of joining and the date

 3     of leaving is entered twice.  We can notice that.

 4             That means that in the VOB-8 after entering a certain name, if

 5     the soldier leaves the unit, he has to be accounted for.  The reason why

 6     he left was wilful abandonment of the unit.  Most common reason for

 7     leaving a unit is demobilisation or reassignment to a different unit.

 8     Or, alternatively, such a person has been assigned to war work

 9     obligation.  There are other reasons such as wounding, permanent

10     disability, or death.  That is also the reason to enter the person as

11     having left the unit.

12             If the -- such a person returns to the unit again, he is again

13     entered as somebody who joined the unit.  This person, Ljubomir Aramanda,

14     returned on 26th of June, 1999, and stayed in the unit until 1993 and

15     deserted the unit again.

16             And the next column is the basis or the grounds for striking the

17     person off the list.  If somebody was demobilised, that has to be based

18     on a document, and the document bears a number.  That number is entered

19     in this column.  It can be reassignment, work obligation, and so on and

20     so forth.

21             And the last column is the date when that person was finally

22     stricken off the list of soldiers in that unit.

23        Q.   The document we have before us, is it the total register

24     according to VOB-8?

25        A.   What you received is not a full record.  It consists of two large

Page 33025

 1     volumes containing data on all military conscripts that went through the

 2     43rd unit.  There may have been over 10.000 names entered.  This is just

 3     a sample, but the principle that was applied was the same for everyone in

 4     the register.

 5        Q.   Do you have a full register in your archives?

 6        A.   Yes, it exists, and the original is with the corresponding

 7     ministry of the government of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   Could your organ enter changes in this register?

 9        A.   No, only the relevant ministry could.

10        Q.   Which one is it?

11        A.   The Ministry of Labour and Veterans Protection and Social Welfare

12     with the government of the RS.

13        Q.   What was your job concerning this register?

14        A.   In February 2005, we took over military records from the previous

15     Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska that ceased to exist.  We took

16     over all of their military records.  If a party needs some certificate

17     that stems from this register in order to exercise their rights, we issue

18     such certificates.  We also keep the records up to date.  If there is a

19     decision made by the relevant ministry in terms of any changes for the

20     register, we carry out those changes.

21             On the topic of VOB-8, when a unit ceases to exist, VOB-8 is

22     terminated, and all the data contained therein is carried over to the

23     individual files of each conscript where all the other data, more

24     comprehensive data is contained beyond what is contained in the VOB-8.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification on your issue.

Page 33026

 1             Witness, you were asked whether you could change the data.  You

 2     said no, you couldn't, only the competent ministry could do.  Later you

 3     say that if they decided that a change should be made that you would

 4     implement that change.

 5             Does that mean that physically you could but you are not allowed

 6     to do it?  Because how could you make the changes -- how could you

 7     implement the changes that were decided if you can't change anything?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The individual files for each and

 9     every conscript are kept by the relevant departments in town and city

10     administrations.  They keep them as records from which they could see

11     data needed for certificates to be issued to the individual citizens to

12     exercise their rights.

13             The ministry I cited is the only body authorised to and make any

14     changes.  When they issue a decision on amendment or change of data, for

15     example, with Ljubomir Aramanda, when they say that it wasn't the 26th of

16     June, 1992, but rather the 26th of May, 1992, on the basis of their

17     decision we enter the changes in his individual file and we also note

18     down that it was done pursuant to the ministry decision.  Without that

19     decision, we are not allowed to enter changes.

20             Of course, someone could physically make or enter changes

21     unlawfully.  But if it did happen, I think it happened seldom.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But it looks very much as if this is a computerised

23     system.  Did you have an electronic version of this list or did you not?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, this is a re-typed VOB

25     of the 43rd Motorised Brigade and we kept a copy.  The original, the one

Page 33027

 1     in handwriting, is with the ministry.  The list we see on the screen

 2     contains the data from the template forms that were filled in the

 3     relevant units, and they came in a number of different sheets stapled

 4     together or in the shape of a log-book containing such template forms.

 5     As far as I know, this printed form that we have now was created in late

 6     1995 or early 1996.  There are two additional copies to this.  A similar

 7     printed copy is preserved by the ministry as well as the handwritten one.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm still -- I'm still not certain that I understand

 9     you.

10             Do you -- are you telling us that this is a typewritten version,

11     or is it a printout of a computerised system?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now whether it was printed by a

13     computer or another machine is something I don't know.  I don't know how

14     it was done.  As far as I can see, I think it was produced by a piece of

15     equipment, but I don't know any other technicalities.  I wasn't present

16     in the process.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you only had a paper copy and nothing

18     else?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, in our department, have only

20     this copy.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Rodic, did the BiH prosecution inquire about these excerpts

24     or registers with you?

25        A.   Yes.  We used this database to provide information to the

Page 33028

 1     interested party and to official bodies.  It is common practice that the

 2     prosecutor's office of BiH asked for information about certain

 3     individuals.  We always provide such information.  In order to protect

 4     personal information, a third party may not be issued with such

 5     information.  It has to be requested by a competent organ or by me.  That

 6     is how you came into possession of the -- this information, because you,

 7     as the Defence team, asked for it.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would now tender this document into

 9     evidence.  It has its number, D767.  It was not admitted.  That's why we

10     have to readmit it.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'll have a few questions about this document as

12     well on cross-examination, and I wonder if I might reserve my position

13     until then, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll postpone our decision on admission.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I at this point in time put a question to the

18     witnesses about a certain name he mentioned.

19             Mr. Rodic, you said that the document we saw a minute ago was

20     signed on your behalf by a person with the name Nenad Babic.  Earlier,

21     you referred to a similar name in the list of people in Green Berets.

22     Then you said, page 8, line 21:

23             "I recognise the name of Slavko Ecimovic; Nedzad Babic," it's not

24     correctly written here, Barbic, "who was my neighbour..."

25             Is that the same person or are these two different persons?

Page 33029

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are different people.  And you

 2     misheard the name.  The first name is Nenad whereas the other one was

 3     Nedzad.  Nedzad is a Muslim name, whereas Nenad is a Serbian or Croatian

 4     name.  Babic is a kind of last name that could be either of the three.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this clarification.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             [Interpretation] We want to see the next document, please, D768.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Page 16, line 25,

 9     "any of the three."

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We see the same cover letter again.

11     We are interested in the following page.

12        Q.   It is a personal file.  Please tell us what it is briefly.  Who

13     is it kept for?

14        A.   In addition to the VOB-8 where we have summary data, there are

15     also military records kept individually for each and every military

16     conscript.  We see here the personal file of Stipo Tomic.  These kind of

17     files were kept for officers, commissioned officers, only.

18     Non-commissioned officers did not have such personal files.

19             In other words, this was an officer who completed his education

20     for reserve officer in 1969.  There's also other kind of personal

21     information and his promotion to the rank that was held last.

22             We have around 720 such personal files, more or less.  It means

23     that there were 720 people who completed their education in the schools

24     for reserve officers and whose rank was higher than second lieutenant;

25     that is to say, from second lieutenant and upwards.  They had their

Page 33030

 1     personal files.

 2             Such officers who were NCOs, the rank of sergeant or warrant

 3     officer, did not have such personal files.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the next page,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   We see the personal file for Stipo Tomic continued.

 7        A.   Yes.  Here we see the record of the time he spent in various

 8     units.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it seems that in the B/C/S version that

10     we often have two pages on -- two hard copy pages on one page, whereas

11     the English takes them one by one.  Could you please take care that we

12     always look at the same, both in the original and in the English

13     translation.  Because if you want us to look at this, then we should go,

14     I take it, one page forward in English --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, it would then be on page 4, I think, in

17     English.  Now they are corresponding again, it looks ...

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  We need right-hand side in next -- yeah, and next

20     page in English.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, not everything was translated.

22     Kindly read out for us the dates and information for this gentleman.

23        A.   In order to navigate the pages correctly, you can see the

24     left-hand side column all the way at the left, and it says number 12,

25     data on war-time assignments.  This is where the unit and rank is entered

Page 33031

 1     for the person whose personal file this is.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last two

 3     sentences, please.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We should go back.  We should go back one page.

 6     Actually, to left-hand side in B/C/S and previous page in English.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Rodic.  We had a different

 8     thing on the screen.  So column 12, what does it explain?

 9        A.   War-time assignment, his position in it, and the mobilisational

10     assembly point where he had to report if mobilised.  It could also be

11     used for military exercises.  It wasn't necessary that it was only used

12     in a time of war.  There were also exercises carried out by the JNA and

13     such information was entered here.

14             MR. LUKIC:  And now if we can move to the right-hand side in

15     B/C/S and the next page in the English.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Again, not everything has been translated.

17     Could you just briefly read for us --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the next page, actually, in English.  The

19     next page.  One page further.  It looks like this is continuation --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  In which language one page further, Mr. -- in

21     English?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there we are.  Number 14 --

24             MR. LUKIC:  In English.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are now on the right page.

Page 33032

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Rodic, what can we see here under 14?

 3        A.   This is promotion.  We see that once a soldier leaves the school

 4     for reserve officers, he is automatically promoted into a reserve

 5     officer.  His first rank was the second lieutenant.  And then after the

 6     exercises in the JNA, it was possible to be further promoted and move up

 7     the ranks.  You can see how this person was promoted and in what years.

 8     So second lieutenant, lieutenant captain, captain first class, and

 9     finally major in 1989.  This is the promotion record of this person Tomic

10     whose personnel file this is.

11        Q.   When we were looking at the previous page, did you manage to

12     establish what the ethnicity of this person Tomic is?

13        A.   No, I couldn't.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Could we go back to the second page, please, in

15     B/C/S.  And it would be the third page in English.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Column 4.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We need right-hand side in B/C/S.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In B/C/S, it's the wrong page.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Just move it to the right, please.  Yes, now we

20     are -- yes.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] You mention column 4.

22        A.   Yes, column 4 depicts his nationality as Croat and his social

23     origin.  He is described as a peasant or a worker.

24        Q.   Is it customary for these personnel files to show a person's

25     ethnicity?

Page 33033

 1        A.   Yes.  The ethnicity is recorded in both the personnel files and

 2     the unit files for all the unit members.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification.  If looks as if the word

 4     "hrvat" is stricken through and that there is some handwriting under it.

 5     Can you read that, Witness?  And could you tell us what it says?  Do you

 6     have any explanation as to why it is stricken through?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, there's the

 8     word "Yugoslav" underneath, which means that in the former state of

 9     Yugoslavia, people were allowed to state their ethnicity as Yugoslav.

10     That started some ten years before the war.  The citizens were allowed to

11     state their ethnicity as Yugoslav.

12             Stipo Tomic corrected his ethnicity, and I can see that there is

13     a date next to that, and there must be a stamp to confirm that

14     correction.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least the transcription is incomplete in

16     this respect, the English, because it doesn't reflect the handwriting.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We would offer this document

19     and we don't mind, if my learned friend has some questions, to postpone

20     the admission until the end, but this is the gentleman whose -- through

21     whose organisation we acquired those documents.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Just two quick clarifications before articulating a

23     positions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no problem that these questions are put --

25             MR. LUKIC:  No problem.

Page 33034

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the witness now?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Sure.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  They were actually clarifications for Mr. Lukic.

 5             First, whether he is seeking to rely on all of the personnel

 6     records that are part of this bundle or just the one that's been used.

 7             And second, whether the translation issue that the Bench just

 8     identified is going to be corrected before admission.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We can MFI.  Of course, we are ready to correct

10     whatever we have to correct.  And we would want all -- it's not bundle.

11     I think it's only four for three people.  I can go through all of them

12     but it would take more time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it looks as if there are two under this

14     number, isn't it?  The first --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Next is Mr. Drincic, Niko; and the third one is

16     Hodzic, Nesib.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.

18             MR. LUKIC:  That's the -- the column --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which page in English?  Yes, I see that apparently

20     they are shorter or they are different or -- but I see that there are

21     three persons and you want to rely on?

22             MR. LUKIC:  All of them because one is Yugoslav, one is Croat,

23     the third one is Muslim, so that's why we need all three of them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, did you receive the information you

25     needed?

Page 33035

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I have.  And I think we're in agreement that it

 2     remain MFI'd pending the translation issue.  I -- I was seeking

 3     clarification but wasn't requesting Mr. Lukic go through all of them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since there's now a translation issue, we'll

 5     formally MFI it under the number already assigned to it.

 6             Madam Registrar, that's put on the record hereby.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, you did not activate your

10     microphone.  I think you were referring to the number, but perhaps --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's D768.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, is marked for identification.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And the next document we

15     need on our screens is D769.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that also MFI'd?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Actually, it was not admitted

18     because we said we will bring the gentleman through whom we received

19     those documents, and this is exactly Mr. Rodic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's understood.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             [Interpretation] Again, we have the same page.  We made three

24     copies thereof.  We need to look at the second page of the document, or

25     rather we need page 4 in B/C/S, which is probably more legible.  I assume

Page 33036

 1     that the corresponding page in the English version will -- would also be

 2     page 4.

 3        Q.   Mr. Rodic, before us we have the unit record.  What is that?  Can

 4     you explain?  This is the unit record for Stefo Brisevac.

 5        A.   Yes.  As I told you, the first bundle of files is only for

 6     officers, and this unit record, personnel record for the unit, refers to

 7     everybody else.  At the moment, we are in possession of some 26.000 of

 8     such unit record for individuals in the army.  Those records started when

 9     recruitment started in the former system.  From then on, the unit or

10     personnel record for the unit contains all the relevant information for

11     each particular soldier, his speciality, a change in the unit status, a

12     change in the place of residence, or -- and all the other relevant data

13     that need to be entered into the record.  That record starts its life

14     when it is established that a person has reached military age.

15             As far as our department is concerned, I found the oldest record

16     which dates -- or rather, the information in the record being the year

17     1905.  Our obligation is to keep -- keep this record for 70 years from

18     the date they were created.  These records are public information

19     accessible to the public on request.

20        Q.   Is this also something that is your base for information provided

21     to the prosecutor's office in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the courts?

22        A.   Yes.  These records are often requested by the prosecutor's

23     office, but we also have cases when such records are requested when a

24     person applied for dual citizenship or the issuance of a passport.  For

25     example, in Croatia a person may be asked to provide this unit record in

Page 33037

 1     order to prove that they had served in the army.  That's very often

 2     necessary when a person applies for a second citizenship.

 3             And then under 7, nationality or ethnicity, this is to prove what

 4     the person's previous ethnicity or nationality was.

 5             In other words, when a person comes and requests a certificate

 6     based on this personnel record, the purpose has to be stated.  For

 7     example, the purpose may be the issuance of a passport, of dual

 8     citizenship, or the citizenship of a third country.  All such records or

 9     information based thereupon can be requested by an official government

10     body for their purposes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I need a guidance now.  Are we working

12     in one-hour sessions or we -- since --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I would like to go back to the usual sessions of

14     one hour and a half.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need D896, which has been

18     MFI'd.

19             And I would tender the previous one into evidence as well, D769.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Again, I may have brief questions about it, and I'd

21     just ask to reserve my position until I've asked them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That request is granted.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Rodic, we have a document before us.  Its title is a list of

25     conscripts.  Do you see it on the screen, and can you read it?

Page 33038

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It says:  "1, list of conscripts, Croats, 381."

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I seek clarification about the name which

 4     appears in the English translation on the right-hand side.  We see there

 5     the name Miso Radic.  I take it this is a mistranslation, if this was -

 6     and I would ask the witness - perhaps we could -- have to go to the last

 7     page in the B/C/S --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We can see the last page.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- to see the original.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it says Radic, it's a mistake.

11     It should be R-o, Rodic, not R-a, Radic.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And is that your signature -- is it --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version, it says

14     Miso Rodic, which is correct.  The signature is not mine.  It belongs to

15     the desk officer that I've already mentioned.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And above the signature we see a handwritten

17     entry with a name.  And this refers to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says department chief,

19     Miso Rodic.  I am department chief.  This is my position.  And before

20     that it say, "za," on behalf of.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see my name handwritten,

23     but the signature is that of the desk officer who is authorised to sign

24     such documents.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

Page 33039

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Rodic, how did you compile this list, or rather several

 3     lists:  One for Croats, another one for Bosniaks, a third one for

 4     Slovenians, and so on and so forth?  What procedure did apply to identify

 5     those people by ethnicity.  How was this list compiled?

 6        A.   What we saw in the previous documents, i.e., personnel records

 7     for all the soldiers, were copied electronically.  They contain all the

 8     different data which are contained in the personal records of all the

 9     soldiers.

10             At the request of the Defence, we programmed the computer to

11     bundle up together people of particular ethnicity.  I believe that you

12     remember column 4 or 7 and 8, which also depicts ethnicity.  The computer

13     basically recognised those columns as separate columns and bundled up the

14     ethnicities together.  This was done at your request.

15        Q.   In the records, is there more information or is this all the

16     information?

17        A.   The records contain more information.  The records also contain

18     information about military exercises, about movement through units.  For

19     example, Stipo Tomic attended some 10 or 15 exercises.  There is a record

20     of his joining the unit, when he was demobilised, on what grounds, and so

21     on and so forth.  This information is not contained here.

22             The way we understood the Defence's request was that we should

23     submit a list of participants in the war who were not Serbs; in other

24     words, Croat, Muslim or Bosniak, Slovenian, Ukrainian, the Roma

25     ethnicity, so on and so forth.  Based on that request, we have programmed

Page 33040

 1     our computer to come up with the list that you can now see on the screen.

 2        Q.   Can this register also be verified?

 3        A.   Yes, if officially requested.

 4        Q.   This kind of record was created and kept by your department.  Why

 5     was it necessary to do so?  How is it used by the citizens?

 6        A.   When we used this record, we also check the physical documents,

 7     the unit records we saw.  However, we used this as a tool to speed up the

 8     process.  For example, if there is Ivo Antic requesting something, we

 9     type his name into the computer and we get the data listed, enabling us

10     to quickly access all the other data pertaining to his person -- to his

11     service.  We look at the files and the end result of the process is a

12     certificate requested by Ivo Antic for whatever purpose.

13             It is also very useful for statistics.  It is, of course, much

14     easier to do so via a PC.  We had your specific request to come up with

15     the list of people of different ethnicities.  In other words, computer

16     entry enables us to go through the database much more quickly than we

17     otherwise would be able to by hand.

18        Q.   Under veteran's rights, what kind of rights can be exercised by

19     the people on these lists?

20        A.   They all have the same rights.  Ethnicity is not a pre-condition.

21     The pre-condition is their participation in the war.  A demobilised

22     veteran receives an annual sum for fighters or former fighters until they

23     are 60 years old.  When they pass that age, it is converted to a monthly

24     instalment and then they receive monthly veteran's payments.  If there

25     was any wounding or damage to their body, they also have the disability

Page 33041

 1     amount.  If the person was killed, his family has the right to his

 2     military pension.  All that is not pre-conditioned in any way by

 3     ethnicity.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness tell us -- or perhaps, Mr. Lukic,

 5     are you going to pay the attention to the last column, the date of

 6     status?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  That is exactly what I wanted to ask him.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I'll refrain from --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  You can.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  Please do so.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Rodic, I asked you about the last column since it wasn't

13     clear to me.  What does it mean, "date of status"?

14        A.   In the processing of the unit files, we keep going back and forth

15     to harmonise data.  As long as the ministry in -- existed, there was

16     communication between local secretariats and the central database at the

17     ministry.  If you recall, I mentioned decisions necessary to be able to

18     enter any changes.  When the last change is entered in a file, that date

19     is considered date of status.  It doesn't mean the date when the file was

20     created but the date of the last amendment in the file or when the

21     last -- when the data was checked last.

22             We see that most of these dates go up to 2005, which is for as

23     long as the ministry existed.  Any subsequent changes were very rare and

24     only happened in such cases when the interested party was successful in

25     obtaining a decision from the ministry or was in another way involved in

Page 33042

 1     legal proceedings requesting any changes.  So this actually means the

 2     last change entered in either a personal or unit file.

 3             Let me add this:  These changes needn't be physical.  In other

 4     words, it could also mean that we made classifications according to

 5     military specialties, and that was the date of status.  In other words,

 6     the file remained intact but only the date was changed, although no

 7     change was requested.  For example, it could have been part of a

 8     procedure to verify or check all background data, and that date would

 9     then be entered as the date of status.  It is a purely administrative

10     piece of information.

11        Q.   Mr. Rodic, thank you.  This was all we had for you at this

12     moment.  And thank you for answering our questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question.

14             Mr. Rodic, the list, as it is now before us, that is, the list

15     with the various ethnically split-up conscripts, does that give any

16     information as to whether or not they were serving in -- between 1991 and

17     1995?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see there were 381 Croats here.

19     All of them were members of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we start with the 16th of

22     September, all 381 are registered in the VOB-8 we saw at the very

23     beginning of my testimony.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's not an answer to my question.  My

25     question is whether on the basis of what we see before us, whether that

Page 33043

 1     can tell us anything about their membership of the army or activities in

 2     that context during the period 1991-1995.

 3             And let me clarify your [sic] question.  If someone would have

 4     joined the VRS in 1997, would he be on this list?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We tasked the computer, upon

 6     the Defence request, to come up with the people out of the 26- or the

 7     27.000 people who met two conditions:  One, was participation in the war;

 8     two, was that they were -- are of non-Serb ethnicity.  As per that

 9     request, the computer came up with this information.  All that

10     information could be seen in the individual files of each and every name

11     we see on the list.

12             In those files, unit files, you can also find information in

13     terms of what unit and what position they were in.  Had the Defence been

14     more detailed in their request, the result would have contained

15     information about the dates between someone who was part of a particular

16     unit.  We can also provide that kind of information.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you receive that request in writing?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you still have it, or is the Defence still having

20     it?

21             MR. LUKIC:  My investigator, Mitrovic, sent the request, so I'm

22     sure he has it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you still have a copy, Witness, of the

24     request as given to you in writing by the Defence?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  If I recall well, when

Page 33044

 1     we looked at VOB-8s, on the cover page it said pursuant to your request

 2     number so-and-so, if I'm correct.  We could see it on the cover page when

 3     you asked me about my signature, and I said then that it was signed by

 4     the authorised desk clerk.  We referenced the Defence request for

 5     information.  Otherwise, we would not have been in a position to forward

 6     it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's, I think, not on this list, but I have a

 8     recollection that I've seen that a reference was made to a request.

 9             Could you -- if you have it, could you please keep it.

10             Well, Mr. Lukic, if you would be in a position to provide a copy

11     to the Chamber, then we would know exactly what we see before us, because

12     the printout doesn't give the information I was asking for.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But that's the -- on that list, could be only someone

14     who was a member of either VJ or VRS.  Nobody else could be on that list.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But that was not my question.  It was about war

16     experience.  And that's, of course, different from being a VRS member.

17             Apparently, as the witness explained to us, a further selection

18     was made as to who had served during war time and who did not, but

19     that -- those data, that information, is not in this printout of this

20     database.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I -- if I just may clarify with the witness or if you

22     can ask --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Rodic, in this register, can we find anyone who did not

Page 33045

 1     participate in the war?

 2        A.   No.  The computer worked on the basis of two tasks.  One was to

 3     take all those participating in the war who were fighters of the VRS or

 4     previously of the JNA.  So those were the two.  You cannot find a name in

 5     the VOB-8 of someone who was not in a particular unit during the war.

 6     There's information for each and every person in terms of where they were

 7     at what time.  The list of 381 contains only such people.  You do not

 8     have information about the dates, that is true, but they had all

 9     participated in the war.  It must be so.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that clarification.  Well, whether it

11     is or whether it must be so, these are two different things, but I

12     understand that you say there were only those who served during war time

13     are in this database or is on the VOB-8.

14             Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.  We could do two things,

15     start for five minutes your cross-examination or take a break first.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in the Chamber's hands.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But I'm more or less soliciting what your preference

18     would be.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Then I'm happy to start, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll start.

21             Mr. Rodic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.

22     Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll most likely see him

23     soon on your screen.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

Page 33046

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   Now, I have a few questions about the documents we just looked

 4     at.  Now, one of the statuses that's listed for some of the servicemen in

 5     D896, which I noticed you did not mention on direct when you were listing

 6     the different statuses, is translated as:  "Moved out, non-Serbs."  Why

 7     is there a specific category for non-Serbs who moved out of the Prijedor

 8     area?

 9        A.   I presume you had in mind the reason why that person was taken

10     off the list in the register.  There was a description in terms of why

11     that person moved out.  In other words, there was no official request.

12     Rather, an instruction must have existed.  Such changes at the time were

13     carried out by the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska, so I did not

14     read any such instructions.

15             I do suppose, however, that all such terms were with the Ministry

16     of Defence because they always worked strictly to standard procedure.

17     You could find there the reasons why somebody was taken out of that

18     register.  I don't know why it says "non-Serb," but I presume it was per

19     instructions of someone in the ministry.

20        Q.   Now, you're aware that about 15 per cent of the Muslims and about

21     the same percentage of the Croats in this list are listed as having moved

22     out of Prijedor municipality; right?

23        A.   I could take each individual unit file to check that information.

24     I don't know personally.  I may be aware of some examples, but these

25     people were then my friends.  I do suppose, however, that is all in the

Page 33047

 1     registers.  If you're interested in anyone in particular and if you lodge

 2     an official request, we can come up with that person's individual file

 3     where you can see all that information.  What you see before you is a

 4     public document and it remains to be so for the time being.  It is based

 5     on the assumption of truthfulness.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to focus carefully on the question I

 7     ask you.  I understand that your answer to my last question was that you

 8     are not, at this moment, sure if it's right that about 15 per cent and

 9     about -- of the Muslims and about 15 per cent of the Croats on this list

10     moved out of Prijedor.  Have I correctly understood your answer?

11        A.   I'm not familiar with that piece of information.

12        Q.   And this document won't show when they moved out of Prijedor;

13     right?

14        A.   I tried to explain that.  We provided excerpts from registers.

15     This excerpt before you does not contain that information, but there is

16     information in existence for each and every person individually.

17        Q.   And those Muslims and Croats listed in this document as having

18     moved out, non-Serbs, were part of, of course, thousands, tens of

19     thousands of non-Serbs who moved out of Prijedor municipality during the

20     war; right?

21        A.   I suppose so.  People moved out and they were a part of that

22     movement.  That is correct.

23        Q.   Now, you said this document starts on the 16th of September,

24     1991.  That means that, in principle, if someone served in the JNA from

25     the 16th to the 18th of September, 1991, and never served in the VRS at

Page 33048

 1     all, they would be on this list; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  If it was noted as war participation.  I think at the time

 3     such information was also kept for the conscripts.

 4        Q.   And you mentioned with regard to one of the other documents that

 5     a sample was provided.  Who selected which samples from the VOB would be

 6     provided?

 7        A.   I suppose the authorised desk clerk did.  I did not.

 8        Q.   Do you -- so you don't know yourself which persons are or are not

 9     included in the version of the VOB that has been provided to this Court,

10     do you?

11        A.   No.  I know it was provided and I know that I authorised that

12     provision, but that is the extent of it.

13        Q.   And the time-period in question starts on the 16th of September,

14     1991, because that's when there was a mobilisation in Prijedor at JNA

15     direction into units that were deployed to Croatia; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see we're now at the time for the

18     break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We are, Mr. Traldi.

20             Witness, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back at 11.00.

21                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I would like to deal with a

25     matter very briefly in private session.

Page 33049

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33050

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             Could the witness be escorted into the videolink courtroom.

15                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may continue.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have MFI D767, page 2.

18        Q.   Now this, again, is the cover of the portion of the VOB we've

19     received.  Sir, I have just a couple of additional questions about it.

20             We see this runs up to the 30th of March, 1996.  So the VOB would

21     certainly include records of people who were only mobilised after all the

22     fighting in Prijedor was over; right?

23        A.   Yes.  This VOB runs up to the 30th of March, 1996.

24        Q.   If somebody was mobilised, for instance, or joined the army on

25     the 29th of March, 1996, would they be included?

Page 33051

 1        A.   Yes.  However, with a reservation.  We were not the ones who

 2     compiled those lists.  These lists are only kept as records in our

 3     department.  I don't know how they were compiled.  I cannot testify to

 4     that.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 3 in the B/C/S only, please.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, you testified that this is a sample, and so I just want

 7     to look quickly at the start and the end.  We see this starts at person

 8     number 243; right?

 9        A.   Yes, Ljubomir Aramanda.

10        Q.   And we see the last record on this page is number 258.

11             MR. TRALDI:  If we turn to the next page, page 4 in the B/C/S

12     only.

13        Q.   The first record is 434.  The portion of the VOB including, for

14     instance, the brigade commander in 1992, Colonel Arsic, has not been

15     included, has it?

16        A.   I can't answer that question.  I don't know.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could turn just to the very end, page 36

18     in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   We see the very last name, and that's Dragan Soldat.  Now the

20     book is in alphabetical order --

21        A.   Soldat, yes.

22        Q.   The book's in alphabetical order, so nobody whose name comes

23     after Dragan Soldat in the alphabet is included in the sample that we

24     have; right?

25        A.   I suppose so.  I can only testify about the fact that this is the

Page 33052

 1     accurate copy of the original.  As the chief of the relevant department,

 2     I can testify to that.

 3             Now, as to how the list was originally compiled and when and the

 4     procedure that was followed, I can't testify about that because I was not

 5     a participant.

 6        Q.   Were you part of making this copy?

 7        A.   Nenad Babic, who is also authorised to provide information based

 8     on military record, did that on my order.  I was informed about the

 9     Defence request.  I approved that request.  I knew what the Defence

10     requested.  The VOB books are very heavy and voluminous.  They weigh over

11     10 kilos, if this means anything to you.

12        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.

13        A.   It would have been very hard to copy them.

14        Q.   Sir, do I correctly understand that you did not participate in

15     making the copy yourself; yes or no?

16             MR. LUKIC:  The witness is -- cannot hear us obviously right now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's --

18             MR. LUKIC:  He already answered that he did not do that, so --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a --

20             MR. LUKIC:  But we can offer now, we can offer the whole registry

21     if the Prosecution wants.  What we tried to do is to cut down the number

22     of pages.  We can easily acquire the whole list and we are very happy to

23     provide it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the basis for the selection?  That

25     apparently is the issue.

Page 33053

 1             MR. LUKIC:  No, we let that guy to copy whatever he wants.  The

 2     employee of the same institution.  So if he --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Your position is clear, Mr. Lukic.  You are ready to

 4     request -- to be provided with the full 10 kilos, if I'm --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, if Your Honours order us to do so.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And this Chamber knows what 10 kilo is.

 7     There's no doubt about that.

 8             Witness, you may have answered the question but the videolink

 9     connection was interrupted.  Therefore, Mr. -- we have as an answer --

10     let me just see.  No, you have -- we have no answer yet.

11             Mr. Traldi will repeat his last question to you and then you're

12     invited to answer that.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, do I correctly understand that you did not participate in

16     making this copy yourself; yes or no?

17        A.   You understood me properly.  I did not participate in that.

18        Q.   Did you check it against official records?

19        A.   I did, one part.  Since I had been informed that some dates were

20     missing from the records; namely, the dates when people joined the unit

21     and when they left the unit.  I checked that.  We have that information,

22     but I am personally not authorised to submit that information to you if

23     you don't request it.  I personally checked that that information exists

24     for every individual and that that information can be provided for every

25     individual upon somebody's request; i.e., the information on the duration

Page 33054

 1     of their service in a unit.

 2        Q.   Just two more questions.  We see Dragan Soldat is the last name.

 3     Now, in alphabetical order, we would expect Dragomir Soldat to appear on

 4     the very next page; right?

 5        A.   This is the last entry.  I don't know what follows, what's on the

 6     following page.

 7        Q.   Well, you know Dragomir Soldat was a soldier in the 43rd Brigade,

 8     don't you?

 9        A.   Yes, he is part of the VOB of the 43rd Brigade.  So all people in

10     this book were members of that brigade.

11        Q.   And he, if we had the next page, if it'd included his name, it

12     would reflect him, and you also know he was recently convicted in Bosnia

13     for massacring a group of Muslim civilians in front of the Carakovo

14     mosque in July of 1992; right?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that.

16        Q.   I'm going to turn now to your own positions.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document unless Their Honours

18     have any questions on it at the moment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no questions at this moment.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Now before I ask about your positions during the war, I

23     understand this is the first time you're testifying at the Tribunal.  You

24     were, however, interviewed by Radovan Karadzic's Defence team; right?

25        A.   Indeed, I was.

Page 33055

 1        Q.   And were you aware they produced a draft statement on the basis

 2     of that interview?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you review that draft statement?

 5        A.   I believe that we left it with a promise that they would send me

 6     that draft, but they never did because they never intended to call me as

 7     a witness.  In other words, I never had an opportunity to review the

 8     draft version of that statement because they decided not to call me as a

 9     witness.  I only assumed that that version is accurate, but I never

10     checked it.

11        Q.   And are you aware whether it was used as a basis for your Mladic

12     statement?

13        A.   No.  I provided the statement based on the questions that were

14     put to me.  That statement never came up.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, one matter still remains unclear to me.

16             That draft statement taken, did you ever see that draft

17     statement?

18             Did the witness hear my question?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I thought you were

20     addressing the Prosecutor, not me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I was --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did --

23             When the statement was drafted, I read it.  I glanced at it.  But

24     I didn't have enough time to review it.  Then I was promised that the

25     full draft would be sent to me.  That never transpired because they

Page 33056

 1     decided not to call me as a witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Turning to your wartime positions.  Now, you were an officer in

 6     the intelligence and security organ of the 43rd Motorised Brigade.  Who

 7     was the head of intelligence and security in the 43rd Brigade?

 8        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic while I was there, and the

 9     Lieutenant Toric for a while as well.

10        Q.   Was it Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Majstorovic who would issue

11     you your tasks?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know who he reported to?

14        A.   He was an assistant commander of the brigade.  I know that the

15     intelligence had its hierarchy that went in parallel with the brigade

16     because they reported to the regiment in the 1st Krajina Corps.  And that

17     was done unbeknownst to the brigade commander, because they worked along

18     a separate line of responsibility and reporting.

19        Q.   So he would report at first on his work to Colonel Stevilovic and

20     then to Colonel Bogojevic, the assistant commanders for intelligence and

21     security at the 1st Krajina Corps level; right?

22        A.   I know that in the security organ there was that direct line of

23     reporting, which bypassed the superior commander.  Whether he

24     communicated with the two persons that you have mentioned, there's no way

25     for me to know that because those messages were encrypted and I can't

Page 33057

 1     testify about them.

 2        Q.   And you would report on your work to him; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was more closely linked to security, which was not my

 4     part of work.  But as intelligence, we were part of a joint organ, and he

 5     was the assistant commander for both security and intelligence.  Very

 6     often in practice the intelligence we received would have ended up with

 7     the Chief of Staff in the brigade.

 8        Q.   So the Chief of Staff in the brigade at the relevant time, that's

 9     Radmilo Zeljaja; right?

10        A.   Yes, Radmilo Zeljaja.

11        Q.   And we're talking about the intelligence you received, we're

12     talking, in part, about the results of the interrogations you conducted;

13     right?

14        A.   Some of the intelligence was obtained through interrogation.

15     There were also other methods to collect intelligence.

16        Q.   And you would provide the results of the interrogations to

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic; right?

18        A.   Yes, there were regular briefings at which we briefed him about

19     all that.  But we also had frequent contacts --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The connection is too bad for interpretation.

21     Could the witness please repeat.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, you're being asked to repeat your last answer.  Just to

24     assist, I'll ask the question again.

25             The question had been:  You provided the results of the

Page 33058

 1     interrogations to Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you were recorded to say there were regular briefings at

 4     which you briefed him about all of that.  That means you briefed him

 5     regularly about the results of the interrogations you conducted; right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And before the interpreters stopped being able to hear you, you'd

 8     started to explain:  "... we also had frequent contacts..."

 9             Who were you about to tell the Trial Chamber you also had

10     frequent contacts with?

11        A.   The Chief of Staff of the brigade.

12        Q.   And so would you also provide him, in practice, with the results

13     of the interrogations you conducted?

14        A.   No.  Only the information which were of some importance for the

15     use of the unit was highlighted.  For example, the information about the

16     enemy that may have led to certain decisions on the use of our own unit.

17     We did not provide the entire information that derived from the

18     interrogation.

19        Q.   Where was your office during this period?

20        A.   As far as I recall, for the initial fortnight it was in the

21     Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in the building that housed the personnel

22     service, given that there was a lack of space.  Later on we moved to the

23     administrative building of the Prijedor Putevi or Kozara Putevi company,

24     as one leaves Prijedor en route to Banja Luka.

25        Q.   And the Chamber has received evidence that in the summer of 1992,

Page 33059

 1     the command of the 43rd Brigade moved into that building.  Which members

 2     of the command had offices in the Kozara Putevi building at that time?

 3        A.   I can say with certainty that there was an organ for morale; that

 4     is to say, assistant commander for morale.  There was assistant commander

 5     for intelligence and security.  I think, in terms of logistics, they

 6     remained at the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks.

 7        Q.   Where was Colonel Arsic at this time?

 8        A.   In the Prijedor Putevi or Kozara Putevi building, depending on

 9     what you want to call it.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 32004.

11        Q.   Now, what you're going to see in front of you on your screen and

12     what we're seeing on ours is an aerial image of the part of Prijedor

13     where the Kozara Putevi building was located.  I understand, due to the

14     videolink --

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   -- we'll -- I'll have to ask you to describe, but can you

17     describe on this building the location of the Kozara Putevi building?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness first identify the building, then.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

20        Q.   Sir --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm -- on this, you mean on the picture?

22             MR. TRALDI:  I misspoke.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And we understood "on this building," which -- a

24     building which was not yet identified, but --

25             MR. TRALDI:  Because I said that mistakenly.  I'll reword the

Page 33060

 1     question, if Your Honours don't mind.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, looking at this image, first, do you see the Kozara Putevi

 5     building?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Can you describe for us where that building is on this image.

 8        A.   I can.  Let us look from the same angle.  If we have the R number

 9     in the upper right-hand side corner, if you follow the main road on the

10     right towards the middle of the picture, there is a turn to the right,

11     which is clearly visible.  At that intersection, there's first a building

12     with a red roof and then behind it is a building with a blue roof.  The

13     red-roofed building is the building of the Prijedor Putevi company.

14     Behind it is a large parking-lot where they kept their equipment, their

15     machinery.

16        Q.   And what's the large building with the grey roof across the

17     street from it?

18        A.   It is Keraterm.  I think you have information about it and that

19     there is no need for me to explain anything in particular.

20        Q.   I won't have any questions about it for you at this moment, sir.

21             MR. TRALDI:  But I would tender the image, 65 ter 32004.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not still entirely certain that I understand

23     what the witness told us.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I -- because there seems to be ...

Page 33061

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There's still some confusion.  Could I take you step

 3     by step.

 4             We start where the large red letter R is; do you see that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If I now go to the left of that, we see that there's

 7     a main road which goes from the top to the bottom of this picture and is

 8     slightly bended; do you see that road?

 9             Now we --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move from the top of this picture slowly down

12     along this road.  You're still following me?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could you tell us where approximately is the

15     red-roofed building you wanted to draw our attention to?  Is that halfway

16     from the top to the bottom?  Is it at one-third?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Which of the two?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it will be easy for you to

20     navigate.  If we start from the top of the photograph where you started

21     and follow the main road, there's an intersection to the left and to the

22     right.  That is not the part I had in mind.

23             You continue down to the -- towards the middle, and you will see

24     another intersection going also to the left and to the right.  The one

25     that goes towards the red-roofed building is the entry to the Prijedor

Page 33062

 1     Putevi company.  If one moves from top to bottom.  I don't know how

 2     precise I was.  It is somewhere around the middle of the photograph.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I -- let me try to make sure that we fully

 4     understand you.

 5             So we moved down and you said there's an intersection to the left

 6     and to the right, another intersection going also to the left and to the

 7     right.  And you say:  "The one that goes towards the red-roofed

 8     building..."  is that coming from the top --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the entry point to the

10     Prijedor Putevi company.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that where we see -- one second.  One second,

12     please.  Would you please wait for a second and try to answer my

13     questions.

14             You were talking about a red-roofed building.  I see one

15     red-roofed building which is -- with a small white striping in the middle

16     of it; do you see that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but that is not where the

18     command was.  It was further down in one of the smaller buildings.  The

19     smaller building immediately adjacent to it that has --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So we have two larger red-roofed buildings

21     which are at an angle of 90 degrees in relation to each other.  We have

22     an area in the centre of that which from here it looks like there's some

23     rubble but it's an open space.  And then we have a smaller building,

24     red-roofed, with what seems to be a number of cars between that building

25     and that main road.  Is that the building you were referring to?

Page 33063

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the other side of the road are

 4     two trees.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid I don't see those -- well, I do see two

 6     trees.

 7             Could I ask you one thing -- one second, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a picture or do you have it on your

10     screen in the videolink room?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is on my screen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just asking for some technical details.

13             If we moved the cursor on our screen here, would that be visible

14     on the other side?  I think it's not.

15             Madam Registrar, could you confirm that?

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can you hear me now?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, we can hear you now.  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] No, the witnesses won't be able --

19     uh-huh.  The witness can see now.  I don't know how sharp is that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Is there any way --

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we put a small picture so that

22     the witness can see the entire ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's see.  When we move our cursor, is that

24     possible to move --

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes.

Page 33064

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You see that cursor at this moment?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now if we move the cursor slightly to the

 4     right, is that the building you were referring to?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think it's clear to all of us.  Now how to

 7     put this on the record.  Can a -- can a still be made with the cursor on

 8     it at this moment or is that impossible?  A print screen with the cursor.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it possible to make a marking here around that

11     building and then ask the witness whether he sees it and whether it

12     accurately ...

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, did you see the marking being made on your

15     screen?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the building.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the building.  Then I take it that this

18     would be a Prosecution Exhibit, or would you like to have more markings?

19             MR. TRALDI:  Just for the clarity of the record, if the Registry

20     official could also circle the large grey-roofed building across the

21     street, and then I'll ask the witness to confirm that that's the building

22     he understood me to mean.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Than the one that the cursor is on now, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll make another marking on what we think

Page 33065

 1     you referred to as being the Keraterm building.  Could you carefully look

 2     at the marking being made.

 3             What is marked now with a red oval.  Is that the Keraterm

 4     building?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the building of

 6     Keraterm.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Any further markings needed, Mr. Traldi?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  No, Your Honour.  And I thank Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you want to tender these marked

11     images.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I would before we lose it, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to this

14     marked picture would be?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7203.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Now you said after about a fortnight you moved there.  So is it

20     right that you began to be based in the Kozara Putevi building around the

21     middle of June 1992?

22        A.   I suppose so.  I don't recall the exact date.  I do remember that

23     we came a little before the rest of the command arrived.  I don't know

24     when exactly, but it is around the date you mentioned.

25        Q.   How long did you continue to be based in the Kozara Putevi

Page 33066

 1     building?

 2        A.   We stayed there until the end of the war.

 3        Q.   And Colonel Arsic -- you said you came a little before the rest

 4     of the command arrived.  About how long after you arrived was it that

 5     Colonel Arsic began to be based in the Kozara Putevi building?

 6        A.   As far as I remember, some 15 to 20 days later.  But that's what

 7     I can remember.

 8        Q.   So around the early part of July or the end of June 1992; is that

 9     right?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat?  The signal was too

11     weak.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Sir, you've been asked to repeat your answer.

14        A.   In terms of your question, because you're asking me about the

15     dates, I can say that I don't know.  I can only -- you tried to use my

16     memory but I'm not sure whether it was on this or that specific date.

17     I'd rather not be specific.  I can try to confirm your date, but I would

18     rather say in June or July or, say, early summer.

19        Q.   Well, I hadn't asked for a specific date.  When you say June or

20     July, what I'd put to you is that it would be late June or early July,

21     approximately; right?

22        A.   I think you mentioned the 15th.  In any case, as for the rest of

23     what you said, it could be true.

24        Q.   Now I want to turn to the interrogations you conducted.  Where

25     did you conduct interrogations?

Page 33067

 1        A.   At first for a short while it was in the personnel office of the

 2     Zarko Zgonjanin barracks, but it was only for a little while.  Later on

 3     we used the premises of the military police, immediately outside the

 4     Keraterm compound.  On this photograph there is a building in the back,

 5     somewhat smaller, and with a red roof which housed the military police,

 6     or rather some elements of it, including the crime investigation service.

 7     We frequently used that space for interrogations.  In exceptional cases,

 8     say, in two or three case, we used the building of the command.

 9        Q.   You say --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Traldi, of course, we see approximately 25,

11     30, 40 houses with red roofs, so I leave it to you whether you want to

12     further -- to have a further specification or that you are satisfied that

13     it was somewhere in this area.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   You say a building in the back, somewhat smaller, with a red roof

16     is the building that house the military police.  The back of what?

17        A.   If we start with the R number and move down to the Keraterm

18     building, which we identified a moment ago, there is some reddish colour

19     and a white line across it.  This is where the offices were.  It was an

20     out-building of the Keraterm complex.  It is that building that was used

21     by the military police of the 43rd Motorised Brigade.

22        Q.   Now I see, sir, a reddish line on the roof at the right-most part

23     of the Keraterm complex on this image.  Is that what you're referring to?

24        A.   No, no.  This is right in the middle of the building immediately

25     after -- below the letter R.  If you go down, there are first two roofs,

Page 33068

 1     and then you can just barely see a reddish roof rather unclearly.  But it

 2     seems there's a dotted line of sorts going across that reddish part.  It

 3     is close to the Keraterm compound.

 4        Q.   Perhaps I've got it this time.  If you were to come out the gate

 5     of Keraterm, there's a road just off the main road.  Is it below that

 6     road on the image, what you're referring to?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the use of a cursor again not be helpful?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  You have to follow the

 9     road to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to do the same as we did before.

11             Could we have now the exhibit with the markings as a starting

12     point and which has been stored.

13             Could you now help us?  The cursor should now go to the letter R.

14     Could you give instructions --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now follow the road downwards.  Go

16     down by some 10 centimetres, vertically.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Where the R is there is no road downwards, but the

18     cursor now moves now --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Continue.  Continue.  More.  More.

20     More.  Stop.  Go slightly up.  You went too far.  Now to the right.  A

21     little bit.  That's the building.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let me see.  You say the building is now --

23     the cursor is a small object which goes from left down to right up.  Is

24     it at the upper side of where you see the cursor that you see the

25     building?  Because the lower part seems to be where Keraterm is.

Page 33069

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the part that is stable.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move up the cursor very slightly a little

 3     bit up.  Little bit more.  Little bit more.  Little -- stop.

 4             Is now the --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part that is blinking is on the

 6     building.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't see any blinking.  But is it true that the

 8     cursor, which looks like a pen, that where the --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part closer to Keraterm is on

10     top of the building -- of the roof of that building.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we mark that at this moment.  Around

12     that building of which the ...

13             Is that marking the building you were referring to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the building which

15     housed the military police of the 43rd Motorised Brigade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

17             Mr. Traldi, any further marking needed?

18             MR. TRALDI:  No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest, as a matter of fact, that we replace

20     the previous marked aerial picture by this new one, the new one having

21     three markings on it, rather than to have two exhibits.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I agree, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the -- could you please repeat the

24     number under which we admitted the previous marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number was P7203.

Page 33070

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you are hereby instructed to replace the

 2     previously marked aerial picture by the now newly marked with all three

 3     markings on it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Understood, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, about -- oh.  We were on interrogations.  Who would bring

 9     people to you to be interrogated?

10        A.   As a rule, the military police did if we issued them with an

11     order to bring someone.  When the units were being formed around

12     June 1992, the security organs of those subordinate battalion-level units

13     were included in it.

14        Q.   And you didn't conduct the interrogations alone; right?

15        A.   No.  It never happened that only one officer interrogated.  There

16     was always a policeman present for security reasons and another

17     colleague.  For the most part, it was Captain Stevica and myself.

18        Q.   When you say a policeman, you mean somebody from public security?

19        A.   No.  We had an MP company in the brigade that was in charge of

20     performing such tasks.

21        Q.   And there were two other teams of interrogators at that facility;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.  In addition to intelligence interrogations, also security

24     organs were involved.  They mostly relied on a crime investigation

25     platoon that they had as part of the military police.

Page 33071

 1        Q.   And one of the military policemen who would participate was a man

 2     named Dragan Radetic; right?

 3        A.   I know Dragan Radetic personally, and he was, indeed, a member of

 4     the military police.  I think that we participated in perhaps only two

 5     interrogations, not more than that.

 6        Q.   And you refer to the interrogations of several specific person

 7     information your statement.  Asking you for now about Sead Cirkin, where

 8     was he detained when he was brought to you to be interrogated?

 9        A.   I know that Sead Cirkin was taken prisoner by the Dubica Brigade.

10     We received information from them that he was an officer from Kozarac and

11     that we should come and take him over because he was from our area, and

12     we were supposed to continue his processing.  He was brought to the

13     building of the command for interrogation.

14             I have already told you that on two or three occasions the

15     interrogations took place at the command building.  One of such cases was

16     the case of Mr. Sead Cirkin.  I don't know where he was actually kept in

17     custody and where they actually brought him from and where then they

18     returned him to.

19        Q.   You refer to an Asim Muhic.  He was a detainee at Keraterm at the

20     time that you interrogated him; right?

21        A.   I don't think that information is correct.  Muhic was in the

22     detention part of the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks together with the members

23     of the VRS who were serving some disciplinary measure.

24        Q.   All right.  I'm going to turn from that to a specific member of

25     the VRS.  You refer in paragraph 26 of your statement to an investigation

Page 33072

 1     into Zoran Zigic.

 2             Now, Mr. Zigic was convicted at this Tribunal after the war of

 3     war crimes and crime against humanity.  You're aware of that today.

 4     Right?

 5        A.   Yes.  I know Zoran Zigic.

 6        Q.   And the investigations into him that you refer to in the summer

 7     of 1992, those investigations were, first, for taking a bribe; and

 8     second, for a crime of robbery, right?

 9        A.   I did not follow the investigation of Zoran Zigic.  I never spoke

10     to him about that.  I was present once he was arrested, and then he was

11     taken into the same detention where Muhic was.  I never took any

12     statements from Zigic.  This was more within the purview of the security

13     part of our service.

14        Q.   So in paragraph 26 of your statement when you say that you can

15     confirm with certainty that the military police of the Prijedor garrison

16     took appropriate measures in accordance with its competences concerning

17     the investigation into crimes committed by members of the VRS against

18     Muslims and Croats, and you refer to the investigation in the case of

19     Zoran Zigic, in fact, you were not involved in that investigation, took

20     no statements, and do not know what crimes he was being investigated for.

21     Is that your evidence today?

22        A.   I can't answer just by a "yes" or "no."  I said that at first I

23     was also working as a legal expert in the Department for Morale.  So

24     penal policy and the rest of it was what I did.  I would have to deal

25     with the qualification of a crime and instigating procedure against the

Page 33073

 1     perpetrator.  Statements were taken from that person during the

 2     investigation and that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that's a very long answer.

 4             Could you tell us where you say that the investigations carried

 5     out in the cases of Zoran Zigic, whether you knew what these

 6     investigations were about as far as the crimes involved are concerned?

 7     Do you know that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that one was looting or

 9     robbery.  I participated in that arrest.  However, I was not involved in

10     the taking of his statement or I did not witness the moment when he

11     pleaded guilty to that crime, no.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So the only thing you know is that when you arrested

13     him it was for robbery.  Is that well understood?  And -- looting and

14     robbery.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was present during that

16     robbery.  I heard rumours of other kind from various sources, but that's

17     a different story.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Who were the victims of this robbery?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslims in Gomjenica, which is a

20     suburban settlement of Prijedor.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the name of the

24     settlement was Ganici or something like that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you have answered my question.  Thank you.

Page 33074

 1             Please, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Now, as to the rumours that you heard, one of the rumours that

 4     you heard was that he'd previously been arrested and then had been

 5     released; right?  At the time that you arrested him for robbery.

 6        A.   Yes.  He was remanded in custody for a short while.  He was of an

 7     excellent behaviour while he was in custody.  But as soon as he was

 8     released, he returned to his old ways and continued with the commission

 9     of misdeeds.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32194.

11        Q.   Now, we see this is a document from Dusko Knezevic,

12     Sergeant Dusko Knezevic, and it begins by referring to information that:

13             "... our soldier, Zoran Zigic, was detained for a criminal act

14     set out in Article 230, paragraph 1, ..."

15             Now, you said a moment ago that you'd served as a legal expert.

16     Article 230, do you recall what that is?

17        A.   No.  I'm not familiar with this document either.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was not whether you're familiar with

19     the document but whether you could tell us what Article 230, paragraph 1,

20     of the Criminal Code stands for.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said no.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the parties agree on what it stands for?

23             Mr. Lukic, you would --

24             MR. TRALDI:  We can speak at the break on that, certainly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 33075

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, you said a moment ago that he was of an excellent behaviour

 3     while he was in custody.  If we read further in this document, we read

 4     that Sergeant Knezovic says:

 5             "We're addressing you because," beginning on the third line in

 6     the English, "our sabotage and reconnaissance unit is getting ready to go

 7     to the front in Derventa, probably on Sunday 12 July 1992.  As

 8     Zoran Zigic is a very capable, obedient and a diligent fighter-soldier,

 9     and one of best experts on explosive, we ask, legal framework permitting,

10     that he would be freed from detention.  We personally guarantee that he

11     shall be made available for the eventual trial when the time comes for

12     that."

13             So the truth is he wasn't released from custody because of

14     excellent behaviour.  He was released because Sergeant Knezovic requested

15     that he be released so he could go back to his unit and go to the front;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.  I don't think that I ever said that he was released because

18     he was a model prisoner.  I just said that he was well --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The answer was not completed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we found 1, 2 -- 230, Article 230.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  We found what Article 230 was at that time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you also interrupted the witness --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, sorry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which is --

Page 33076

 1             MR. LUKIC:  You know --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please tell us.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It's an unlawful abandonment of a front line.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Does that ring a bell to you, Witness, that Article 230 is

 6     unlawful abandonment of a front line?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do have a degree in law, but

 8     I'm not -- I don't know all the articles by heart.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please continue your answer.  You

10     said you don't think that you ever said that he was released because he

11     was a model prisoner.  And then you said:

12             "I just said that he was well ..."

13             And what did you then say?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he was being arrested, he

15     behaved exceptionally well.  He was a model prisoner, that is true.  But

16     that was not the reason why he was released from custody, nor I do know

17     when that happened.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32196.

20        Q.   Now this is a decision by the Prijedor Lower Court dated the

21     9th of July, 1992.  We see that Zigic is hereby released from custody.

22     And below that in the third paragraph below statement of reasons, we

23     read:

24             "Added in the file is also an information which shows the

25     necessity for the accused to be engaged in the Zoran Karlica unit as an

Page 33077

 1     excellent and capable worker-soldier who is knowledgeable about

 2     explosives."

 3             Now, the Zoran Karlica Unit, that was the sabotage and

 4     reconnaissance unit of the 43rd Brigade that at this point was commanded

 5     by Dusko Knezevic; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So what I'm putting to you, sir, is that when you say the

 8     military police investigated Zigic, what happened was he was released at

 9     the request of his commander to go back to his unit and go back to the

10     front.  That's the truth; right?

11        A.   If I have looked at this carefully, people were remanded in

12     custody at Zarko Zgonjanin barracks on the order of the commander of the

13     43rd Brigade.  As far as I can remember, Zivko Dragasevac was a judge of

14     the court in Prijedor.  If I'm not mistaken, the basic court in Prijedor.

15             So this is a completely different matter.  I'm talking about the

16     time when Zigic was remanded in custody because of the disciplinary

17     measure instituted by the brigade commander.  This is something else.

18     This is a -- this is proceedings before a regular basic court of which I

19     know nothing.

20        Q.   Well, first, at this point he would initially have been arrested

21     by the military police because he was a soldier; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So this first arrest the chain also begins with the military

24     police arresting him, and it ends with him being released on the request

25     of his commander; correct?

Page 33078

 1        A.   No.  You're actually mixing up two different and wrong things.

 2     My answer is no.  The commander did not have any authority before the

 3     basic court in Prijedor.

 4        Q.   Sir, Zigic was in the Zoran Karlica Unit.  The commander of it

 5     was Dusko Knezevic at this time.  We've just seen Knezevic requesting him

 6     to be released.  We've just seen -- in fact, we're looking now at the

 7     decision releasing him which refers, in part, to the request from his

 8     commander.  That's the truth; right?

 9        A.   I can read this in the statement of reasons of the court in

10     Prijedor.  I don't know whether this is truth -- the truth or not.  I can

11     only cite the document.  I can give you all the figures and all the

12     facts, but this is not the thing that I'm talking about.

13        Q.   I'm going to turn to his second arrest in a moment.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Before I do, I'd tender 65 ter 32195 and 32196.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, I apologise.  32194 and 32196.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32194 receives number P7204.

19             And 32196 receives number P7205.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7204 and P7205 are admitted.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32199.

22        Q.   Now, this is the arrest you're referring to when Zigic and

23     Dosen -- or the arrest you were referring to a moment ago when Zigic and

24     Dosen were detained for robbery; right?

25        A.   No.  I suppose that they were involved in -- with several

Page 33079

 1     robberies.  I only know of one which took place in Gomjenica in the

 2     settlement of Ganici.  That's the one I know of.  If this is what this

 3     refers to.  But this is the military court in Banja Luka.

 4        Q.   And we see that they, again, are releasing Zigic from detention;

 5     right?

 6        A.   I can't answer that.  I did not remand him in custody.  I did not

 7     release him.  I was never at the military court myself.

 8             Why are you asking me about the military court?  How can I

 9     testify about that?  I can only make up things.  I really don't

10     understand you.  There is a basic court, a military court, and I had

11     nothing whatsoever to do with any of them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  You don't have to

13     ask why questions are put to you.  You should answer them to the best of

14     your abilities.

15             By the way, the reason Mr. Traldi is asking is because your

16     referring to investigations against Zigic and Dosen and that's the reason

17     why he explores it.

18             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, just to be clear, Mr. Zigic was never convicted and

21     sentenced during the war for any of his many crimes against Muslims and

22     Croats, was he?

23        A.   I don't know.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 32199.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

Page 33080

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't object but I think that this witness is not

 2     the proper witness to introduce this document through him.  He had --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  He has -- the witness has -- in his statement has

 4     referred to an investigation against Zigic and Dosen, and in that respect

 5     this is relevant and probative.  And even if the witness himself cannot

 6     say anything about the document, on the standard practice of this

 7     Chamber, that makes it admissible at this moment.

 8             Any other objections, Mr. Lukic?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  No other, except that he has no knowledge about this

10     document at all.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, you know what I refer to the constant

12     practice of this Chamber in this respect.

13             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32199 receives number P7206.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Now, sir, you referred to the robbery committed by Zigic that you

18     know -- knew of as having taken place in the settlement of Ganici in

19     Prijedor.  Do you remember who the victim was?

20        A.   I've already answered.  Muslims.  In Ganici.

21        Q.   If I suggested it might have been a Hasnija Ganic, would that

22     refresh your recollection?

23        A.   No.  I don't know any of them by name.  I am only aware of the

24     case and the arrest.  I had no contact whatsoever with the victims of

25     that robbery.

Page 33081

 1        Q.   Now, the Chamber's received evidence that by late summer 1992,

 2     the command of the 43rd Brigade and the 1st Krajina Corps command were

 3     aware that the Zoran Karlica Unit, in which Zigic was a soldier, had

 4     committed serious crimes, including crimes in Carakovo village.  Were you

 5     aware of those crimes committed by members of Zigic's unit?

 6        A.   I can't answer the first part of your question, about the command

 7     and whether the command was aware, because I was not a member of the

 8     command.

 9        Q.   Sir, I didn't ask you if the command was aware.  I asked you if

10     you were aware.  I told you the Chamber has already received evidence

11     that the command knew.

12        A.   I don't know what the Chamber received.  I don't know whether I

13     can trust your words when you're speaking on behalf of the Chamber.  I

14     suppose that I should trust the Trial Chamber.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, just answer the question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Be my guest.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Just answer the question.  That's good enough.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please rephrase your

19     question or clarify so I will answer.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you were aware of those crimes committed by

21     members of Zigic's unit as described by Mr. Traldi.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to the crimes

23     committed around Carakovo, I know of them partly from rumours.  I

24     directly did not participate in them, and I cannot testify about the

25     crimes that were committed there.  I know that there were rumours about

Page 33082

 1     those crimes.  I know that crimes had been committed in and around

 2     Carakovo.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were aware but have you no further knowledge.

 4     If would you have told us that right away, then we would have moved on

 5     more quickly.

 6             If there's -- if it ever comes to your mind again whether can you

 7     trust Mr. Traldi, just leave it to the Defence of Mr. Mladic and to this

 8     Chamber to find out whether Mr. Traldi, as is not what he usually does,

 9     is misleading you as a witness.  So refrain from any comment on that and

10     listen carefully to the next question.

11             Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   You're not aware of any investigation into those crimes in

14     Carakovo that you heard about, are you?

15        A.   No, I'm not aware of any such thing.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I am about to turn to a new topic.  I

17     see we're very close to the time for the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would have, however, one other question.

19             Witness, you told us that the robbery for which you arrested

20     Mr. Zigic was committed against Muslims.  At the same time, you say

21     you -- you never talked to the victims.

22             What do you know about those robberies, especially in view of

23     your knowledge that they were committed against Muslims?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me describe a very specific

25     event.

Page 33083

 1             We received a report that a member of the VRS had arrested two

 2     people and kept them in the elementary school.  That person objected to

 3     the robbery that had been committed.  When arrived there, we found Zigic

 4     and another soldier there and that third soldier, who was standing with a

 5     machine-gun at the entrance to the school because he was afraid that

 6     somebody similar to Zigic would come and set them free.  When we arrived,

 7     he removed his weapon, he allowed us to enter, he handed over the two

 8     people who were arrested, and he was very visibly angry that they had

 9     taken certain things from the civilian.

10             I found on the -- on the soldier that was standing next to Zigic

11     some rings and other jewellery.  Zigic was very disciplined.  As soon as

12     we arrived, he lowered his arms, surrendered, and we accompanied him to

13     be remanded in custody at the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks, which was a

14     military detention unit.  That's how I know about the robbery that he had

15     committed.  I was not involved in any further interrogations or

16     investigation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you have not answered my question because I

18     was asking specifically on what your knowledge was based, that Muslims

19     had been the victims of the robbery.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found some necklaces in the

21     pocket of the soldier who had been co-perpetrator together with Zigic,

22     and also based on the statement of the soldier who had kept them in

23     custody there in that elementary school who told us that they had

24     committed that robbery in the village of Ganici.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It was those who had committed the robbery that told

Page 33084

 1     you that it was committed against persons living in the village of

 2     Ganici?  Is that what you're telling us?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It was the third soldier

 4     who had arrested them, because he objected to what they had done.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And he told you that the robbery had been

 6     committed against persons living in the village of Ganici.  Is that

 7     correctly understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And every single inhabitant

 9     of that hamlet was of Muslim ethnicity.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And how do you know that every single inhabitant was

11     of Muslim ethnicity?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about some six or

13     seven households.  The dwellers share the same family name, Ganic.  Ganic

14     is a Muslim family name.  The number of the houses there was very small.

15     That's how I conclude that all the inhabitants of the hamlet were

16     Muslims.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Traldi, is that the same name as you put

18     to the witness?  Is that -- is my recollection accurate?

19             MR. TRALDI:  It is, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We take a break.

21             Could I inquire with the parties -- before I give an opportunity

22     to Mr. Tieger to address us, could I inquire as to how much time?  Let's

23     just assume that we start again at 1.00.  How much time would you still

24     need?

25             MR. TRALDI:  I think I'm roughly on schedule, so I will need

Page 33085

 1     another half-hour or so.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And would that be sufficient time, approximately the

 3     half-hour, a little bit over half an hour, for you, Mr. Lukic, to ...

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it would, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then before we take a break -- we'll take a

 6     break soon, Witness, and we'd like to see you back at 1.00.

 7                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  With respect to the matter the

10     Court inquired about in private session, no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tieger.

12             We take a break, and we resume at 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Although we still see on our screen that the far end

17     microphone is switched off, let's see whether that becomes any better if

18     Mr. Traldi resumes his --

19             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I just want to apologise first.  I

21     quoted the wrong criminal act from -- since criminal acts were changed,

22     criminal codes were changed, so it was not abandonment of the front line,

23     it was accepting the bribe.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Accepting the bribe.

25             MR. LUKIC:  And I discussed it with Mr. Traldi.

Page 33086

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good that you considered this during the

 2     break.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And I --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're ready to continue, Mr. Traldi, please do

 5     so.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I am.  I understand we're agreed that the first

 7     arrest was for arrest for accepting a bribe.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, just very briefly on the last issue we were discussing.

11             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 32198.

12        Q.   This is another decision from the Banja Luka Military Court.

13     Looking at the decision we see Mladen Dosen, that his appeal has been

14     granted and he's being released from custody with immediate effect.

15             Now, below the word "rationale" we see this is about a robbery

16     crime under Article 150.  He was arrested together with Zigic; right?

17        A.   I can't provide that piece of information to you.  I don't know.

18        Q.   And we see under rationale, at the end of the paragraph, a

19     reference -- it's quite unclear in the B/C/S, but the translators -- the

20     interpreters had found that it looked like Hasnija Ganic.  Now, that's

21     the last name of the victims of Zigic's crime that you mentioned; right?

22        A.   There are some Ganics living outside the hamlet too, so I can't

23     confirm that.

24        Q.   And is this the Dosen that you refer to in your statement,

25     Mladen Dosen?

Page 33087

 1        A.   No.  I don't recall mentioning Dosen in my statement.  Perhaps

 2     you can jog my memory.

 3        Q.   Let me put it to you this way for efficiency:  You're not aware

 4     that Mladen Dosen, or any other Dosen in the 43rd Brigade, was convicted

 5     and sentenced during the war for crimes against non-Serbs, are you?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32198.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 32198 receives number P7207.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             Witness, you told us about another person being arrested together

12     with Zigic.  Who was that other person?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you say you don't recall any Dosen in your

15     statement, but I'll read just one line, I think I did it before, that you

16     said as examples of the military police of the Prijedor garrison taking

17     appropriate measures, you referred -- you said:

18             "For example, I can refer to investigations carried out in the

19     cases of Zoran Zigic and Dosen also known as Djole and others."

20             Could you tell us what the investigation against Djole, or Dosen,

21     was about?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that Mladen Dosen and the

23     Dosen whose first name I couldn't recall, aka Djole, it could be Djordje,

24     I don't think the two are the same people.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not my question.  My question was what you

Page 33088

 1     could tell us about the investigation carried out against Dosen also

 2     known as Djole.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that some measures were

 4     taken.  As a lawyer in the command, I was present when they were trying

 5     to come up with a way to prosecute Zigic and Djole, Dosen.  I knew Zigic

 6     in person.  As for Djole, Dosen, I only know his nickname, Djole,

 7     whereas, I don't know him.  The command was looking for a way to

 8     prosecute them so as to have a civilian court competent to try them.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Prosecute them for what?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For Dosen, individually, I don't

11     know, because I didn't take part in any measures.  I know about Zigic.  I

12     know for Dosen that there were stories going around that he even killed

13     people.  I only know it from stories.  I know him as a person who killed

14     others.  I think the secretary of the lower court in Prijedor was one of

15     his victims, but those were just rumours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you are telling us that you can confirm

17     with certainty that appropriate measures were taken, and you are giving

18     an example of Dosen, also known as Djole, but you only know about rumours

19     in relation to Dosen.  That is I understand your testimony to be?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assert that measures were taken.

21     I never asserted anything in terms of their conduct.  I know only that

22     the command undertook measures to discipline them, and I was consulted

23     since I have a legal degree.  That is what I know about the measures

24     taken.  I didn't go into the reasons why in my statement.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what measures were taken against him?

Page 33089

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First, I was requested to visit the

 2     military court of the 1st Krajina Corps --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Not -- I'm asking not --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so as to --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking what you were supposed to do.  I'm

 6     asking specifically what measures were taken.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intention was to bring them

 8     before a military court, but --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, again, I'm not asking what

10     intentions you may have had.  My question is what measures were taken

11     against Dosen.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what further measures

13     were taken.  I was only familiar with the procedure that had to do with

14     initiating proceedings with a military or civilian court.  As for any

15     specific measures, there's nothing I can tell you about that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to that.

17             So when you said I assert that measures were taken, you do not

18     know what measures were taken.  That's, in short, your answer?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note: Could the witness

20     kindly repeat his answer.  We did not understand it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer, as short as you gave

22     it a second ago.

23             I had asked you what measure that -- that you do not know what

24     measures were taken, whether that's correctly understood.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It isn't clear to me what you mean

Page 33090

 1     by "measures."  What do you have in mind?  I'll try to answer briefly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn to your evidence about detention

 5     facilities in Prijedor now.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32191.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, you claim in your statement the word "camps" was not

 8     used for Trnopolje, Keraterm, and Omarska.  This is a report from the

 9     1st Krajina Corps command dated the 7th of September, 1992.

10             If we could turn to page 2 in the English in the middle and 3 in

11     the B/C/S at the top, we read that:

12             "The SR government and the SR army Main Staff make the first

13     moves on purpose in order to show the above-mentioned commissions their

14     true intention to reach crisis solution through the peaceful

15     negotiations."

16             Now, first, the SR government, that refers to the government of

17     the Republika Srpska; right?  Sir, were you able to hear the question?

18        A.   No.  I only heard the last sentence.  It is clear it was a

19     decision of the government of Republika Srpska, but I did not hear the

20     question itself.

21        Q.   And it refers not just to the government of Republika Srpska but

22     to the -- the Main Staff of the army.  That's the Main Staff commanded at

23     the time by General Mladic; right?

24        A.   It should be so.  Mladic commanded it.

25        Q.   And --

Page 33091

 1        A.   I don't understand the question.

 2        Q.   Well, below that -- sir, below that we see the move that the

 3     government and the Main Staff have decided to make:

 4             "The first 50 prisoners will be released from the Manjaca and

 5     Trnopolje LRZs some day soon."

 6             Now "LRZ" stands for prisoner of war camp; right?

 7        A.   I'm not familiar with that abbreviation.  It seems to me you

 8     translated it correctly, but there's nothing I can testify to in that

 9     regard.

10        Q.   You're never heard in your career in the security and

11     intelligence organ the abbreviation LRZ for "Logor Ratnih Zarobljenika"?

12        A.   I stand by my statement.  We did not use the term "camp."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was not whether you used it.  The

14     question was whether you were familiar with this abbreviation.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  And I don't think we received

16     any such documents.  At least not the ones I could see when I was giving

17     my statement.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- you had answered my question already.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Sir, I'm putting two things to you here, and I'm going to do them

22     one at a time.

23             First I'm putting to you that it is not credible, based on your

24     wartime occupation, that you are not familiar this abbreviation.  Your

25     evidence just now is not the truth, is it?

Page 33092

 1        A.   You have the right it assert whatever you like.

 2        Q.   I'm putting it to you to invite you to comment.  Do you have any

 3     explanation of how you could have avoided learning the common

 4     abbreviation for prisoner-of-war camp when you served in the security and

 5     intelligence organ during the war?

 6        A.   The organ's name was organ for security and intelligence.  I was

 7     in the intelligence part of it and I was interested in the enemy.  My

 8     role was to familiarise myself with the enemy.  Security was not my

 9     remit.  However, I still assert that I never came across the acronym LRZ,

10     at least not in any of the documents that I could lay my hands on.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was not limited to documents.

12     Are you saying you'd never came across the acronym ever?  Documents or no

13     documents?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under no circumstances.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Second, sir, what I'm putting to you is what the 1st Krajina

18     Corps is writing here is the truth:  The people in Trnopolje were

19     prisoners and it was a camp.  That's the truth; right?

20        A.   I cannot testify to that.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32191.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32191 receives number P7208.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P7208 is admitted.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 33093

 1        Q.   Now, in this regard, you claim in paragraph 24 of your statement

 2     that Trnopolje was created as a result of the order of the Prijedor

 3     garrison command to leave a corridor open for the evacuation of civilians

 4     in the direction of Kozarac, Trnopolje at the time of combat activities

 5     in the wider area of Kozarac.  You say the Trnopolje collection centre

 6     was the first to be visited by Doctors Without Borders, the Red Cross,

 7     and journalists.

 8             Just to be totally clear, you agree with me that those Red Cross

 9     and journalist visits did not take place for more than two months after

10     the camp was created; right?

11        A.   I think that assertion is more or less correct.  I can't recall a

12     date, given the fact that I personally provided security for one such

13     delegation.  I don't know whether it was the Doctors Without Borders or a

14     different organisation, but in any case I escorted them when they went to

15     Trnopolje.

16        Q.   And you referred to the evacuation of civilians from Kozarac.

17     You're aware that thousands of Muslim civilians fled Kozarac at the time

18     of the attack; right?

19        A.   The numbers probably correspond to what you said.  I know the

20     corridor was used.  I did not take part in the operation in Kozarac.  But

21     in terms of receiving information about the opening of a corridor for

22     civilians, I received that information from Mr. Radmilo Zeljaja.  That

23     piece of information about the corridor came from the Chief of Staff,

24     Mr. Zeljaja.  I did not participate in the Kozarac operation there.

25        Q.   Now, you're aware that the civilians who were at Trnopolje had --

Page 33094

 1     that were from Kozarac had nowhere to go back to because their homes had

 2     been destroyed; right?

 3        A.   No.  The only information I received after that, given the fact

 4     that the collection centre was not within our jurisdiction, had to do

 5     with the report about the activities of the Green Berets in Kozarac where

 6     several civilians stated that they were used as a human shield and

 7     that --

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   -- Sulejman, aka Kole, who was one of the ring leaders, would not

10     let them leave.  That's all I know.

11        Q.   Well, sir, when you came back from Banja Luka to Prijedor, you

12     would have gone through Kozarac, wouldn't you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And so you do, in fact, know there was widespread destruction of

15     civilian homes there, don't you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You could see that when you passed by.

18        A.   You see, during combat the road between Prijedor and Banja Luka

19     via Kozarac was not open for traffic.  However, with a corps colonel, I

20     travelled that route at own risk just one or two days after the combat.

21     I could observe a number of houses that had been torched immediately next

22     to the road.  That's what I could see.

23        Q.   Which colonel were you travelling with?

24        A.   I think it was Cendic.  I think he was in the logistics base and

25     worked on logistical support.

Page 33095

 1        Q.   Do you know his first name?

 2        A.   It's difficult.  Cendic.  In any case, I think he was from Serbia

 3     proper because he spoke in the Ekavian dialect.

 4        Q.   Turning to Omarska.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P2895.

 6        Q.   Now, this is a document signed by Simo Drljaca.  Directing your

 7     attention to point 3, we read:

 8             "A mixed group consisting of national, public, and military

 9     security investigators shall be responsible for the work with and

10     categorisation of detainees.  They shall organise themselves respecting

11     the parity principle.  Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and Lieutenant-Colonel

12     Majstorovic shall be responsible for their work."

13             Now, Mirko Jesic was from the SNB national security right?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Rajko Mijic, Prijedor SJB, public security?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic is your boss; right?

18        A.   As for the question whether he was my boss, the answer is yes.

19        Q.   And you're aware that other interrogators from the security and

20     intelligence organ of the 43rd Brigade under

21     Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic took part in the work with and

22     categorisation of detainees at Omarska; right?

23        A.   No.  Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic was in Omarska before he

24     became the assistant commander.  He was sent from the 1st Krajina Corps

25     to the interrogation centre in Omarska.  When he was appointed assistant

Page 33096

 1     commander in the 43rd Motorised Brigade as my boss, he no longer went

 2     to --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We lost signal, it seems.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have to see whether --

 5             I see that the connection has been restored.

 6             Witness, halfway your answer, the connection was interrupted.  I

 7     read what we still --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can repeat my answer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would resume from where you said "when he was

10     appointed assistant commander in the 43rd Motorised Brigade as my boss,

11     he no longer went to," and could you please resume from there?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my knowledge, he no

13     longer went to interrogate in Omarska.

14             My knowledge is that at the time when he interrogated there, it

15     pertains to the time when he was still with the Krajina Corps when he was

16     still not a member of my brigade.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   You said that he was sent from the 1st Krajina Corps to Omarska.

19     Do you also know who sent him?

20        A.   No.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Now, I'm going to ask for 65 ter 32253.  I

22     apologise, this isn't in the witness's package.  I'm going to direct him

23     to one specific point.

24        Q.   Sir, this is a dispatch sent by Prijedor SJB Chief Drljaca to

25     CSB Banja Luka on the 13th of June, 1992.  And Mr. Lukic will correct me

Page 33097

 1     if I'm wrong, I'm sure.  But it describes some events.  And at the

 2     bottom, it says:

 3             "All operatives and the team of experts who worked under the

 4     supervision of Mirko Jesic and Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic can confirm

 5     that these allegations are true."

 6             So as of the 13th of June, Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic was

 7     still supervising operatives and a team of experts in Omarska; right?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, we only have the B/C/S version before us

 9     at this moment.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I see that, Your Honour.  I'm not certain how that's

11     happened, but --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The English translation is uploaded?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It was there, I'm told.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which paragraph are you reading, Mr. Traldi?

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'm reading at the end.  We still have the previous

17     document's English on the screen.  If we could ...

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MR. TRALDI:  Apparently we have an upload issue.  I think I can

20     put the proposition to the witness and ask that it be MFI'd, if that

21     suits the Chamber.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections by Mr. Lukic, who is able to

23     read the original.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 33098

 1        Q.   Sir, what I was putting to you was that as the document on our

 2     screens reflects, as of the 13th of June, 1992,

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic was still supervising operatives and a

 4     team of experts at Omarska; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  But before the 30th of June, he was not the assistant

 6     commander for intelligence and security.  It was Lieutenant Todic, as far

 7     as I remember.  He only joined after that.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be marked

 9     for identification and we'll check the upload.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 32253 will receive number P7209.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

13             Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.  You are -- you said half

14     an hour?

15             MR. TRALDI:  I have about five minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Would -- Mr. Lukic, would a little bit over half an

17     hour do for you?

18             MR. LUKIC:  It will be sufficient, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Finally, sir, on Keraterm, you refer in your statement to an

23     incident the night of the 24 to 25th of July where 150 people were killed

24     you said you heard about it.

25             Now at the time, you and the 43rd Brigade command were both based

Page 33099

 1     across the street from Keraterm in the Kozara Putevi building; right?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And because you were based across the street from Keraterm, you

 4     must have known that crimes had been being committed against the people

 5     detained there throughout the summer of 1992:  Beatings, sexual violence,

 6     killings.  You knew that at the time; right?

 7        A.   From other people's stories, I personally never witnessed any

 8     such things, so I can't testify about them.  I just heard stories.

 9        Q.   You heard stories.  Other people in the Kozara Putevi building,

10     where the brigade command was based, would also have heard those stories;

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And when you heard that detained persons were being beaten or

14     being raped or being killed, you didn't keep that information to

15     yourself, did you?

16        A.   Yes, but I believe that the security organ had more than we in

17     the intelligence part of the service.

18        Q.   So you would tell your superior, right, when you heard a story

19     like that?

20        A.   I believe that I heard accurate information during the

21     debriefings when somebody from the security organ informed us about that

22     event, that the motive was retaliation, and that members of the

23     43rd Motorised Brigade were not involved.  This is what I heard.  This is

24     the information I was privy to but I never checked it.

25        Q.   You never checked it.  You were based across the street.  You

Page 33100

 1     knew there were military police based in Keraterm.  There was no

 2     investigation by you or your organ whatsoever, was there?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   So, in fact, you have no idea whether VRS soldiers were among the

 5     perpetrators because you didn't investigate; right?

 6        A.   The first piece of official information was that the whole event

 7     was just revenge for the death of a dead policeman.  That's all I knew.

 8        Q.   Now, that's about motive.  It's not about perpetrators.  You

 9     don't have any idea who the perpetrators were.  You didn't in 1992;

10     right?

11        A.   Not then, not after that.

12        Q.   So what I'd put to you is, in fact, there was no investigation

13     not because you knew the crime was outside the VRS's jurisdiction but

14     because -- but for the same reason that Zigic and Dosen were released

15     when they were arrested, that they were sent back to the front, because

16     the policy was not to punish soldiers who committed crimes against

17     Muslims and Croats even if the crime was mass murder; right?

18        A.   That was not the way I was thinking or acting, nor did I have

19     information to that effect.

20        Q.   And because you were across the street, you knew that just before

21     that crime, hundreds of prisoners had been brought into Keraterm as a

22     result of cleansing operations in the Brdo and Biscani areas; right?

23        A.   I knew that there were hundreds.  I knew that they had been

24     brought to Keraterm, yes.

25        Q.   You knew a room had been cleared out for them?

Page 33101

 1        A.   I don't know how the space was obtained, but I know that they

 2     were accommodated there.

 3        Q.   Do you know they were put in the same room together?

 4        A.   I was present during the year 1992 when the international

 5     commission came and inspected Keraterm.  They paid attention to the first

 6     room which was closest to the street.

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8        A.   It was a somewhat larger room, but I never knew that they were

 9     all accommodated in that room.

10        Q.   Sir, you know as you sit here today that what we're talking about

11     is room 3 where these people who had been picked up in Brdo and Biscani

12     were put; right?

13        A.   I know nothing about the name of that room as being room number

14     3.  I know that people were executed there from hearsay.  I know that it

15     was a case of retaliation.  The figure that I heard was -- was over 150.

16     I don't know how many; but, yes, it was a large figure.

17        Q.   The rest of the command also knew over 150 people had been

18     killed; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And your claim is 150 people are murdered across the street, and

21     23 years later you don't even know what room it happened in.  That's your

22     evidence?

23        A.   Correct.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time ever I hear

Page 33102

 1     it from you that it was room 3.  I did not know that.  Even yesterday I

 2     didn't know it.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination for the

 6     witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we do have questions for this

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Again, good afternoon, sir.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, before I continue I forgot to tender,

14     since it was MFI'd, D896.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you assist me in --

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's the last document.  The document that was issued

17     by this gentleman, the list of Croats and Bosniaks.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections, Mr. Traldi?

19             MR. TRALDI:  We'd like to look at it and compare it to the VOB if

20     a full version is going to be provided.

21             MR. LUKIC:  If Your Honours direct us to provide the whole VOB-8,

22     we will do that.  But we ...

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the Prosecution thinks that it can better

25     analyse the excerpt by having the full version of it.  Under those

Page 33103

 1     circumstances, if you -- I think it's reasonable to disclose it, the

 2     complete version, to the Prosecution.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have it yet, but I will ask Mr. Rodic, who

 4     is here with us, and tell him that we'll soon ask from him to provide us

 5     with the full version.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, the Prosecution could do it itself as

 7     well.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Just to make clear all I was doing was, and perhaps

 9     inartfully, was inquiring whether that was going to happen.  If not, then

10     we could formulate a position now.  But if it was, we would want to make

11     the comparison.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But you do not -- you're not asking for postponement

13     of hearing your position?  Because if Mr. Lukic wouldn't ask for it, that

14     you would do so?

15             MR. TRALDI:  If there's no already an intention, then we wouldn't

16     ask for a postponement of our position, no.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And what then is your position if Mr. Lukic -- that

20     you do not oppose admission?

21             MR. TRALDI:  We don't oppose admission.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll decide in due course on admission,

23     Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what about D768 and D769.  Do you have any

Page 33104

 1     intentions?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes we want to tender them, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the same should be true for D767?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We want to tender all four

 5     documents.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, all four.  They have numbers already.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I would -- the Chamber will decide in due course on

 9     admission.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             Can we have D767 in front of us so just the gentleman knows what

13     we are talking about.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, Mr. Traldi, is your position in

15     relation to the other documents the same; that is, no opposition and

16     no ...

17             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  The same.  Regarding 767, I think we would

18     want to reserve the right to request additional excerpts, but that's all

19     we would do at this time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can always ask for additional excerpts

21     which is, of course, not a condition for -- you'd say you can consider

22     that even if it would be admitted?

23             MR. TRALDI:  I do.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  The Chamber will decide in due

25     course on admission of these four documents.

Page 33105

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If we could have page 2 of this document, please.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, let me ask you something about the

 4     list of conscripts, the so-called VOB-8.  My learned friend Mr. Traldi

 5     mentioned that the last date in the book is the 30th of June, 1996.  He

 6     also asked you whether it is possible that somebody's name was entered

 7     into the list on the 29th of February, 1996.

 8             Could you please tell us whether --

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  We have Mr. Traldi on

10     his feet.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'm terribly sorry.  Just for the record, I think

12     both months should have been March.  And I'm not sure if there was an

13     interpretation issue or a problem with the record earlier, but I'm fairly

14     confident I referred to the 30th of March and the 29th as it was the day

15     before.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if that makes any difference for you,

17     Mr. Lukic, are you willing to accept --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I do accept this.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please proceed as you deem appropriate.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Rodic, do you know if anybody's name was entered into the

22     VOB-8 records on the 29th of March, 1996?

23        A.   I said no because we were not the author of a VOB-8 box.  We are

24     their custodians at the moment.  But it is possible that the date is

25     16 September --

Page 33106

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  We need to

 2     be absolutely certain of the dates.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please slow down and could you

 4     repeat your answer.  You said:

 5             "We are their custodians at the moment.  But it is possible that

 6     the date is..."

 7             And could you then resume from there and be slow on especially

 8     the dates.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

10             What I'm saying that it is technically possible.  The date is

11     16 September, 1991, and the other date is 30th March, 1996.  So it is

12     possible that somebody's name was entered on the 29th of March, 1996.  I

13     don't know whether it was done or not, whether any such cases exist.  I

14     don't know.  I repeat, that I received the VOB-8 in 2005 in the month of

15     February.  I can only testify that this is authentic.  I don't know how

16     it was created.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Based on personnel files, would it be possible to see when an

19     individual joined the VRS?

20        A.   Yes.  Personnel files for the officers, unit files for the other

21     soldiers, they depict the exact dates, what their duration of service was

22     during that period of time.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We still believe that there are issues pending with

24     this regard.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up P7203.

Page 33107

 1        Q.   Mr. Rodic, you marked this photo.  You marked the building that

 2     was used by the military police and where you also entered.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What do you see when you are looking from that building in the

 5     direction of Keraterm?  Can you see the inside of Keraterm?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Who was it who provided security for the Muslims who were

 8     incarcerated in Keraterm?

 9        A.   According to what I knew, it was MUP members who guarded them.

10        Q.   Did they tell you anything about their work?  Did they report to

11     you?

12        A.   No.  For the first month or so, we were in constant conflict.  I

13     and Mr. Seric [phoen] from the intelligence service did not have access

14     to Keraterm, although we needed intelligence about the Green Berets.  We

15     requested that information, but we were never accommodated.

16        Q.   Did you send some people to Keraterm?

17        A.   There was an incident.  It was about half past 12.00 at night.

18     Since there were no conditions for us to do our job in our small

19     building, we wanted one of our interviewees to be accommodated in

20     Keraterm that night, and we said that we would fetch him in the morning.

21     When we came to fetch him the following morning, they wouldn't give him

22     to us.

23        Q.   After that, did you continue sending people to Keraterm?

24        A.   No, no.  When they were under our authority, we didn't -- we

25     informed our superiors that the co-operation with the interrogators in

Page 33108

 1     Keraterm was not good, that a lot of intelligence is lost because it

 2     doesn't reach us or it is belated in reaching us.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, let us look at P7205.

 4        Q.   We have seen this document.  It is about the accused Zoran Zigic

 5     who was being released from custody because the presence of Zoran Zigic

 6     was guaranteed at a possible trial.

 7             We can see that in the third paragraph of the statement of

 8     reasons, and I'm going to ask you, sir:  Do you know if Zoran Zigic

 9     killed somebody in Prijedor?

10        A.   No.  There were rumours, but I wouldn't be able to give you any

11     names.  I heard that he did commit crimes, did -- they -- that he and

12     Djole killed people, but I am not sure if that is true or not.

13        Q.   Did you hear that he had killed a Serbian girl?

14        A.   There were stories about that, but I don't know any details.

15     There were rumours to that effect.  I heard that Djole had killed a lady

16     called Jolenka, who was a secretary at the court, but I only heard that.

17        Q.   Very well.  If you don't know any details, we'll move on.  And

18     now let me ask you about Trnopolje.  Do you know how people ended up in

19     Trnopolje?  How did they arrive?

20        A.   What I heard from our chief was that they used a corridor that

21     was left open during fighting.  Most of them arrived in that way.  And

22     then when the Red Cross, the Doctors Without Borders arrived, they

23     arrived in the collection centre in Prijedor, and there were also those

24     50 that arrived from Keraterm and Manjaca.  After the first large group

25     left, the Muslims who resided in Prijedor in their own houses or who were

Page 33109

 1     staying with their relatives wanted to go to Trnopolje voluntarily

 2     because in there they saw their chance that a third country would receive

 3     them as immigrants.

 4             I remember a case when a man whose name I cannot remember told us

 5     a story about the money that he made in the course of one night.  He made

 6     4.000 convertible marks by transporting the people who wanted to join one

 7     of the convoys of an international organisations that organised those

 8     convoys for those who wanted to leave to a third country.

 9        Q.   What did you hear when people heard that they would be given an

10     opportunity to go abroad, how many more people came to Trnopolje?

11        A.   On the first day, a thousand more came.  And then international

12     organisations started restricting those numbers, and they made lists of

13     those who were there already, and they said that they would no longer

14     receive people in Trnopolje after that, that only those who were already

15     on the lists were allowed to be there.  That's when the numbers started

16     decreasing.

17        Q.   On page 80, line 22 of today's transcript, you started talking

18     about the living shield, about the human shield in Kozarac.  You

19     mentioned a name that was not recorded.  What did you tell us?  Who held

20     whom as human shield?  Which name did you mention?

21        A.   Based on interviews with people of both genders of Muslim

22     ethnicity as we were looking for the Green Berets and their whereabouts,

23     we received information from several witnesses that members of the

24     Green Berets, among them Sulejman Kosuran, Kole, were against the

25     possibility of using the corridor when people went to Trnopolje.  They

Page 33110

 1     didn't mention the term "human shield."  It was just my conclusion that

 2     that's how that human shield was created.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P7209 next.  This

 4     document has not been translated.  It originates from the Ministry of

 5     Interior, that is to say, the public security centre in Prijedor, dated

 6     13th of June, 1992.  It contains information on the conduct of members of

 7     the special detachment of the CSB in Banja Luka in -- during a previous

 8     period.

 9        Q.   Do you know when the members of the special detachment of the

10     Banja Luka CSB arrived in Omarska?

11        A.   No.  I have information that I obtained only after the war and

12     that I learned was partially incorrect, was that the interrogation centre

13     in Omarska was established by the MUP.  When General Talic stated that

14     the command of the 1st Krajina Corps participated in it, it is then only

15     that I learned of that piece of information.

16        Q.   What did you hear about Omarska and the army's participation in

17     it?

18        A.   As per official order, the army was supposed to perform guard

19     duty in the outer perimeter about a couple of hundred metres outside the

20     compound and that they were not in contact with those who were inside it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  At page 85, line 15 of today's transcript, it was put

22     to you that throughout the summer of 1992, there were crimes taking place

23     in Keraterm.  What is your knowledge about what happened in Keraterm, or

24     what was happening in Keraterm?

25        A.   First, I said that during that period we were not allowed inside

Page 33111

 1     and that we were constantly arguing with those from the MUP who were in

 2     Keraterm.  We, as military intelligence, could not obtain information.

 3             As for the shooting that took place during the night, I don't

 4     remember exactly when, happened immediately after the operation in

 5     Carakovo.  I heard that there was a lot of firing during the night, and

 6     there were only one or two officers on duty at the command who told me

 7     that there was firing and movement.  Later on, I learned it was an act of

 8     retaliation.  That is what I know, more or less.

 9             If we came in contact with any of the civilians we interrogated

10     who had come from Keraterm, we asked that a medical report be drafted if

11     they showed visible signs of physical violence, but I don't recall if any

12     of the people who had been physically beaten had come to me.  And what I

13     can confirm with certainty, that we did not physically beat anyone while

14     interrogating them.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification.

16             You've told us several times now that the killing in Keraterm was

17     because of retaliation.  Do you know who committed those killings?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My knowledge is --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I don't know any first or last

23     names.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What makes you so pertinent to tell us so

25     often that it was retaliation without even knowing who committed those

Page 33112

 1     killings?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that a policeman was killed.

 3     His nickname was Krivi, his last name was Curguz, but I don't remember

 4     his first name.  During the operations in Carakovo.  Those are all

 5     stories I heard from other people, and there were assumptions made that

 6     it happened immediately after he was killed.  I don't know if it is

 7     correct or not but that's what people talked about.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that made you believe that it was

 9     retaliation?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't say I -- I don't say it was

11     retaliation.  I just say that I heard that the motive of it was

12     retaliation.  It is not my assertion.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll check that, whether you never said that.

14             Please continue, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   What is your knowledge?  Except for the people from Carakovo,

17     were there any other prisoners in Keraterm?

18        A.   Yes.  I am not familiar with your markings, 1, 2, 3, or 5.

19     That's not something I ever heard about before.  I hear it from you for

20     the first time.

21             The first room, I don't know whether it was called room 1, 2, 3,

22     or 5, housed civilians, or prisoners, that we were supposed to

23     interrogate.  I don't know how many there were, though.  And they were

24     there even before the operation in Carakovo.  That is what I could

25     observe.  Their interrogation took place inside Keraterm, and during the

Page 33113

 1     initial period I did not have access to Keraterm.  Later on when some

 2     senior officers intervened and dealt with the issue, I did have access,

 3     but it only took place later.

 4        Q.   In terms of what you could hear, did you learn that only people

 5     from Carakovo were killed or all those who were in Keraterm at that

 6     moment?

 7        A.   According to our information, I don't think fire was opened at

 8     other rooms which housed people who were not from Carakovo.  Only the one

 9     where the Carakovo people were.  I don't know anything about any specific

10     numbers though.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rodic.  This is all we had for you.  Thank you.

12        A.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I still one follow-up question to one of my previous

14     questions.

15                           Questioned by the Court:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did I understand you well that you assumed that the

17     killing took place shortly after that officer or that soldier was killed,

18     that for that purpose you assumed that it must have been retaliation that

19     led the perpetrators to kill the large number of people in Keraterm?

20        A.   In my statements, I tried to say that I only heard about such

21     information.  I heard from some people that it was done as retaliation.

22     It is not something I know.  I only heard about it.  I could only hear

23     others retell the story, saying that it was retaliation for the killing

24     of so-and-so.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a minute ago you said -- well, okay.  Let's --

Page 33114

 1     who told you that it was retaliation?

 2        A.   A few days after, I attended a briefing of the intelligence

 3     department, and I think I heard from someone who was in charge of

 4     security say concisely about what had happened that night.  They said

 5     that it involved civilians brought in from Carakovo and that in all

 6     likelihood it concerned retaliation.  So that was our knowledge at the

 7     time.  It's not something I knew about, and I'm not trying to justify it

 8     as such.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also said that you never told us that --

10     that it was retaliation.

11        A.   I did say that but I never claimed it was my opinion.  I only

12     said that I heard about it being an act of retaliation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, may I remind you that you said today:  "I know

14     that it was a case of retaliation," which is not:  "I know that someone

15     said that it possibly was or likely was a case of retaliation."  You

16     said: "I know that it was a case of retaliation."

17        A.   I think the latter is correct, not the first.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19        A.   If I did say so, I apologise.  It is not my own conclusion that

20     it involved retaliation, and I never wanted to assert that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?

22             MR. TRALDI:  Very briefly.  Could we have 65 ter 32192.

23                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

24        Q.   Sir, this is a criminal report from the public prosecutor's

25     office in Prijedor regarding Mr. Zigic.  We see in the fifth line that

Page 33115

 1     he's described as "... a member of the unit securing the Keraterm

 2     temporary prison in Prijedor ..."

 3             Now I'm not suggesting it was only the VRS or that the MUP wasn't

 4     involved, but there were soldiers that assisted in securing Keraterm,

 5     weren't there?

 6        A.   According to the information I have, the answer is no.  However,

 7     given the fact that I saw Zigic when I passed by, then the answer would

 8     be yes.  But I don't think he was there on any orders.  It is just my

 9     opinion.  In any case, I wasn't familiar with that at the time.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have 65 ter 10855.  Page 3 in the English

11     and 2 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   As it comes up, this is part of an interview with Simo Drljaca in

13     Kozarski Vjesnik in 1993.  At the top of the fourth column on page 2 in

14     the B/C/S, and just above "many had their own, Muslims and Croats," in

15     the middle of the page in English, we read him say:

16             "The co-operation with the Army of the Serb republic as well as

17     the officers was exceptional.  The co-operation occurred in the joint

18     cleansing of renegades on the terrain, joint work at the check-points,

19     joint intervention group for maintaining the public peace and order, as

20     well as in the combat against terrorist groups."

21             What Mr. Drljaca is saying here, that's the truth:  Co-operation

22     between the VRS and the MUP in Prijedor was strong and constant, wasn't

23     it?

24        A.   Your question was a long one and yet I'm expected to answer

25     concisely.  In any case, my answer would be not in entirety.

Page 33116

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered those two documents,

 2     65 ter 32192 and 10855.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32192 receives number P7210; and

 5     10855 receives P7211.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P7210 and P7211 are admitted into evidence.

 7             I have one question for you, Witness, a short one.

 8                           Further questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In paragraph 28 of your statement, you say that

10     there had been abuse of while belts in Trnopolje camp.  Well, you used

11     the word "camp" there.  But apart from that, could you tell us what the

12     outcome of the investigation into the abuse of white belts in Trnopolje

13     camp was?

14        A.   It wasn't done by military policemen.  It was done by soldiers

15     and citizens who identified themselves as military policemen by obtaining

16     a white belt somewhere.  We were against it, and the security organs

17     undertook measures and arrested those who had such belts.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you give us --

19        A.   As a lawyer, I undertook other measures in order to prevent it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that reports or Official Notes were

21     made in relation to that?

22        A.   I suppose those who worked on it made Official Notes, but I did

23     not, since it didn't concern me directly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, talking about Official Notes.  When you

25     interviewed or when you interrogated persons in the context of your

Page 33117

 1     duties, did you make written notes or written reports of those

 2     interviews?

 3        A.   Yes, we did.  We drafted notes and we informed the assistant

 4     commander.  And along our direct line of the intelligence and security

 5     organ, we informed the corps in our service.  So there were two lines of

 6     communication in parallel.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So there must be a whole trace of paperwork in

 8     relation to what you did at that time?

 9        A.   I suppose it has been preserved somewhere.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could you also tell us what measures you

11     said you took against those who abused white belts?

12        A.   Against those who misused white belts, the criminal investigation

13     departments of the police and the security organs dealt with it.  We in

14     the intelligence department did not deal with it.  What I tried to do,

15     but I was interrupted a couple of times in explaining, was that I sought

16     to be involved as a lawyer in the intelligence department.  We asked that

17     the safety of citizens be improved by having military police issue

18     orders -- actually, receipts with numbers and lists of equipment issued

19     to each and every military policemen, so that if we came across such

20     pieces of equipment, we could identify the policeman involved.

21             Having done this, we realised that it did not concern any

22     military policemen and that it was a clearly misuse.  As for what was

23     done with such cases subsequently, that is something I don't know.  The

24     criminal investigation department was involved in that.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 33118

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question, sir.

 2             Paragraph 25 of your statement you say that Muslims were paying

 3     to go to Trnopolje.  My one question is:  Who did they make the payment

 4     to?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To such citizens who transported

 6     them, mostly in vans.  They would transport eight people.  I mentioned

 7     the one who boasted of having earned 4.000 German marks for a number of

 8     rounds he did.  Some also used their own vehicles.  Others were brought

 9     there by their family members.  So they went voluntarily and were even

10     prepared to pay to go to Trnopolje.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?

13             MR. TRALDI:  Just one on the basis of Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and if I -- I'm seeking the co-operation of

15     those who are assisting us, because we are ten minutes over time, but

16     since you say it's only one question, that perhaps may convince everyone

17     that it should be allowed.  It is allowed.

18                      Further further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   In response to the President's question, sir, you testified that

21     an Official Note would be made after an interview.  Was an Official Note

22     made and sent up the chain regardless of whether the person being

23     interviewed was found to be someone there was reason to detain?

24        A.   Every person I saw and who was interviewed had an Official Note

25     drawn up.  However, I find your question imprecise.  All I can say is

Page 33119

 1     that all those who were interrogated in terms of intelligence -- well, we

 2     drafted Official Notes in each case and we sent those notes up both lines

 3     of command; that is to say, to the corps, in terms of the intelligence

 4     and security chain, as well as up the chain of command of the

 5     43rd Motorised Brigade.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  That's all I had, and I appreciate the Court's and

 7     everyone else's indulgence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, no questions arising from the

 9     questions from the Bench and Mr. Traldi's question.

10             Mr. Rodic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you

11     very much for coming to the location of the videolink and for having

12     answered all the questions that were put to you, and I want you -- wish

13     you a safe return home again.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We can disconnect the videolink.  And we thank you

16     Madam Registrar at the location of the videolink for her assistance.

17                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume on Monday, the

19     16th of March, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of March,

22                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.