Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33120

 1                           Monday, 16 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced.  Therefore, is the Defence ready

12     to call its next witness?

13             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honours.  That would be

14     Mr. Milenko Karisik.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is back with us

18     in court again.

19             Were you saluting?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic is saluting.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you should refrain from such actions.

22     You know what the consequences are, if that is what you want.

23             Good morning, Mr. Karisik.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

24     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to

25     you.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

Page 33121

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  MILENKO KARISIK

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Karisik.

 6             Mr. Karisik, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You'll find

 7     Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

 8     Mr. Mladic.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Perhaps with the assistance

11     of the usher, I can have a clean copy of the witness statement shown to

12     opposing counsel while I start with the witness.

13                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

14        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could I ask you to first please state your

15     full name for purposes of the record.

16        A.   I am Milenko Karisik.

17        Q.   And did you give a statement to the Defence team of

18     Radovan Karadzic in 2013?

19        A.   My answer is yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd like to call up in e-court the document,

21     1D4749a.

22        Q.   Sir, looking at the first page of this document that's on the

23     screen on the left-hand side, do you recognise this statement?

24        A.   Yes, I recognise my own statement.  But I would like to ask you

25     to enlarge the letters a bit.

Page 33122

 1             MR. IVETIC:  While we do that, could we also go to the last page

 2     of the same in e-court.

 3        Q.   Sir, looking again at the Serbian original, can you tell us whose

 4     signature appears on this page?

 5        A.   That is my signature.  My shorter signature.  And it is

 6     authentic.

 7        Q.   And so the date that is reflected in the left-hand side of the

 8     document, is that in accordance with your recollection of what date you

 9     signed the statement in the Karadzic case?

10        A.   My answer is yes.

11        Q.   Now, sir, do you stand by everything as written in this statement

12     as being accurate?

13        A.   My answer is yes.

14        Q.   If I were to ask you today questions on the same topics as

15     contained in your statement, would your answers in court today be

16     substantially the same information as is contained in your written

17     statement that we have before us?

18        A.   Today my answers would confirm the statements I made on that day.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary

20     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So my answer is yes.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   And, sir, in so far as you have taken a solemn declaration this

24     morning, can we then consider the answers as contained in your statement

25     to be truthful in nature?

Page 33123

 1        A.   Yes, my answers are truthful.  The answers contained in this

 2     statement.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would at this time then tender

 4     1D4749a as the next Defence exhibit, and there are seven associated

 5     documents that also are being tendered at this time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Are they all already on your 65 ter list?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, they are, Your Honours, and the corresponding

 8     Mr. Mladic 65 ter numbers are provided in the chart that was filed with

 9     the statement in the 92 ter submission of the Defence, linking them to

10     the Karadzic 65 ter numbers which are present in the statement itself.

11             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, we don't oppose admission of the

12     statement, but there are four of the associated exhibits that we do

13     oppose -- object to, we indicated as much in our filing of the 9th of

14     February, it's the numbers 1D05309, 05310, 05311, and 05312, for the

15     broad reasons stated in our filing of 9th February, paragraph 3.  And

16     I'll just elaborate the first one, 05309.  It's mentioned at paragraph 19

17     of the statement we oppose admission of this document.  It's a

18     third-party statement in BiH State Court proceedings.

19             In our submission, admission should be sought under the

20     appropriate Rule of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  In any event,

21     it's not sufficiently explained or commented upon in the relevant

22     paragraph 19.

23             So far as the next one is concerned, that's 05310, it's cited to

24     at paragraph 17 of the witness statement.  It's a lengthy book extract

25     not sufficiently explained or commented upon in paragraph 17 of the

Page 33124

 1     witness statement.

 2             Next one, 1D05311, it's at paragraph 25 of the statement.  It

 3     doesn't provide -- that paragraph doesn't provide any comment or

 4     contextualisation of what is a compilation of SRNA, that's the Serbian

 5     press agency's press releases.

 6             And the same applies 1D05312, paragraph 25 again.  Again in

 7     relation to these, no comment or contextualisation of any of these press

 8     releases from the Serbian press agency.

 9             So we object to the admissions of those four documents as

10     associated exhibits on those grounds.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let me first have a look at the transcript.  I

12     think initially, I don't know whether it was --- whether you misspoke or

13     whether it's not accurately recorded, but we are talking about 5309,

14     5310, 5311, and 5312.

15             MS. PACK:  That's right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections against the other ones.

17     We'll delay our decision on the ones you mentioned and see how the

18     examination of the witness develops in that respect.

19             Could you take the other ones one by one, Mr. Ivetic, so that we

20     can decide on admission.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely.  The other ones would be in this order:

22     1D04751.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  The number D932, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  Next one would be.

Page 33125

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Next one would be 1D5313.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  D933, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  1D5314.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  D934.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D934 is admitted.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And then the statement is 1D4749a.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  D935.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D935 is admitted into evidence.

13             Yes, I am still a bit confused that they were all already on your

14     65 ter list or whether you asked them to be added to the 65 ter list,

15     Mr. Ivetic.  I think you said they were already but ...

16             MR. IVETIC:  Unfortunately, I have the table from the 92 ter

17     filing but I don't have the filing itself.  I assume that they were based

18     upon the fact that they already had Mladic numbers, but looking at them

19     now they're higher than I would have anticipated, so it is possible that

20     they might ones that we sought admission --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's be very practical.  I heard of no objections

22     against them being added to the 65 ter list to the extent it had not been

23     done yet, and therefore your tendering of the documents is understood as

24     implicitly also asking to have them added to the 65 ter list to the

25     extent they were not yet.

Page 33126

 1             MS. PACK:  That's right, Your Honours.  And I'm just looking back

 2     at the filings and there were -- six of these seven exhibits were sought

 3     to add as onto the 65 ter list and we --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was on my mind when I earlier asked

 5     Mr. Ivetic whether they were all already on the 65 ter list.  But let's

 6     not make too much fuss about that at this moment.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time I have the

 9     public summary to be ready.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Milenko Karisik became a member of the special unit

12     of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Interior in 1983 and remained as a

13     member of the same until the outbreak of the war.  He served as the

14     deputy commander of the special anti-terrorist unit when the war broke

15     out.  This unit was the most professionally organised part of the MUP of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Special attention was paid to ensure that the

17     staffing structure of the unit corresponded to that of the population of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, the percentage of Serbs, Croats, and

19     Muslims.

20             After the multi-party elections of 1990, the SDA started

21     appointing personnel to key supervisory positions in the Ministry of

22     Interior who used the ministry as a tool to achieve the goals and

23     implement directives of the SDA.  Reserve police forces, mostly Muslims,

24     were activated at all levels, including in the special unit.  The witness

25     notes that the special anti-terrorist unit started to be tasked to

Page 33127

 1     perform tasks that were not within its remit, where the unit was misused

 2     with disproportionate strength in unlawful actions in service to

 3     intimidate Serbs.  These were ordered by the minister, following the

 4     orders of the SDA.

 5             In the special unit anti-terrorism training stopped and a

 6     complete transition was made to military training.  This demonstrated a

 7     preparation of the unit for new purposes.  In the meantime, the

 8     recruitment of special reserve police led to the formation of a special

 9     reserve unit which occupied some of the buildings of the witness's unit.

10     Only Muslims were recruited into this unit, and for the most part they

11     were from the region of Sandzak, volunteers for the Green Berets, and

12     deserters from the JNA.

13             As a result of the abuses in the use of the special unit, Serbian

14     members, led by the witness, demanded a meeting with the MUP leadership

15     in order to eliminate problems because further work was unbearable and

16     impossible.  A meeting was held including Momcilo Mandic, a Serb,

17     Jusuf Pusina, a Muslim, and Bruno Stojic, a Croat, that ended in

18     agreement to put an end to further abuse, but this agreement was not

19     respected by the Muslims.

20             Eventually the MUP was split, and based on an agreement at the

21     top level of the MUP, the Serb special unit was to be assigned to the

22     base in Vrace, whereas the Muslim/Croat part of the unit was to remain in

23     Krtelje.  When the Serb unit set out for its assigned base, it was

24     attacked from two directions.  It was learned that the leadership of the

25     Muslim MUP ordered this attack.

Page 33128

 1             During the unit's stay in Vrace, it was attacked with infantry,

 2     anti-armour, and mortar weapons on a daily basis by the Muslim forces.

 3     The special unit grew into the special police brigade of the Serb

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which numbered 1500 personnel with the

 5     witness as its commander.  The witness states that no one ever asked him

 6     or demanded that he as the commander commit a war crime.

 7             Later, as chief of the public security department of the MUP of

 8     Republika Srpska, the witness never saw any mention of execution of

 9     prisoners from Srebrenica in any written reports and himself had no

10     information on the same.

11             And this completes the summary.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions for the witness, Mr. Ivetic?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   I'd like to turn to page 2 in both languages of your written

17     statement, and I'd like to ask you about paragraph 8.

18             Now, here you are talking about how the SDA appointed its

19     personnel to key positions in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that

20     these persons then used that ministry to achieve goals and directives of

21     the SDA.  How did the other ethnic groups and ethnic parties react to

22     these actions of the SDA?

23        A.   That was the period after the multi-party elections in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina when the three ruling parties - the SDA, the HDZ, and

25     the SDS - on the basis of the agreement reached -- I mean, I'm a speaking

Page 33129

 1     about the Ministry of Interior now, but I imagine this was the situation

 2     at all levels of government.  This agreement was implemented by a

 3     division of portfolios in the government.

 4             As for the MUP itself, they, the SDA, got the position of the

 5     minister of the interior, one of the most important positions in the

 6     then-government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And not only that.  On the basis

 7     of that agreement, they got other top positions.  The assistant minister

 8     for police was also a Muslim.  The assistant minister for personnel

 9     likewise.  And now I cannot recall exactly the entire structure, the

10     entire personnel structure, but the most posts through which force could

11     be implemented in the Ministry of Interior, I think I should put it that

12     way, it was Muslims who held these positions and who were appointed to

13     these positions.

14             Of course, Minister Delimustafic, who even had a criminal record,

15     was appointed by political structures and not a professional in the MUP.

16     Minister Delimustafic did not know much about police work, but he knew,

17     that I think for sure, and it was confirmed later, he knew how to convey

18     the orders issued by the SDA that had appointed him in the first place.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you.

20             Mr. Ivetic, I think you asked the witness how other ethnic groups

21     and the ethnic parties reacted to those actions.  Now the witness is

22     describing in detail, apparently, what the actions were or how he

23     considered them, which is not an answer to your question.  You let him

24     go.  I don't know whether this is what you intended, but it certainly is

25     not an answer to your question.

Page 33130

 1             So, therefore, Witness, you'll hear from Mr. Ivetic whether he

 2     wants an answer to his question or whether he wants you to go on to

 3     answer a question which was not asked, and then perhaps what that

 4     question would be.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Sir, if we could take it step by step.  Could you tell us how did

 7     the other ethnic groups and ethnic parties react to these appointments by

 8     the SDA of Muslims to these key positions in the MUP?

 9        A.   In principle, since as far as this slicing of the cake was

10     concerned, they were not pleased with the positions in the division of

11     important positions in the MUP.  So political parties were not satisfied

12     but some agreement had been reached.  That would be my answer.  The one

13     that I know.

14        Q.   And now these appointments of Muslims to key positions by the

15     SDA, how did it affect the pre-existing ethnic distribution of officials

16     within the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had existed in the years prior?

17        A.   During the previous years, the so-called ethnic criterion was

18     seriously taken into consideration when dividing up posts in the

19     ministry.  However, that principle was infringed upon after the

20     multi-party elections, especially from a professional point of view.  The

21     ethnic structure was also disrupted.  SDA personnel started to dominate.

22        Q.   And could you explain what you mean by saying that the "principle

23     was infringed upon after the multi-party elections ... from a

24     professional point of view."  What did you mean in regard to that?

25        A.   In the Ministry of Interior, it should be professionals that

Page 33131

 1     should be working there, people who were trained in law enforcement.

 2     When party people came to top positions in the Ministry of the Interior,

 3     then party people who were involved in politics cropped up, people who

 4     had no experience in law enforcement - I've just referred to

 5     Minister Delimustafic - people who had no experience in carrying out our

 6     responsible duties, and of course professionals who were there were taken

 7     aback, and it made it more difficult to carry out one's duties

 8     professionally and properly.  It created difficulties.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And now if we look at paragraph 9 on the same page in

10     English and the next page in Serbian, you talk about reserve forces of

11     the MUP that were activated but mostly Muslims.  Was there any official

12     justification that you heard while at the special unit explaining why so

13     many reservists, mainly Muslims, were being activated?

14        A.   At that time, I was in a managerial position in one segment of

15     the police, i.e., the special police, and it was a surprise for me to

16     find out that in addition to the active-duty police force which had

17     reached an enviable level of professionalism in peacetime, all of a

18     sudden, a reserve force was also needed.  It was surprising and somewhat

19     inappropriate to see that true professionals, true special police needed

20     a reinforcement to be efficient.  There was no explanation for that.  The

21     commander just implemented what the ministry and the police

22     administration ordered him to do, i.e.; to activate the reserve force of

23     the special police.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, in relation to paragraph 10 - and that's on page 3 in

25     both versions - here, sir, you are telling us in relation to the special

Page 33132

 1     police unit that it was tasked outside its remit and especially in

 2     relation to actions to intimidate Serbs.  Can you please be more specific

 3     as to why these tasks were outside the remit of the unit's activities and

 4     why you considered them unlawful.

 5        A.   The use of a special unit within the system of command of the

 6     Ministry of the Interior is within the remit of the minister.  This unit

 7     is used very seldom, and when it is used, it is used for very special

 8     purposes, such as anti-terrorist combat, dealing with hostage situations

 9     in various situations, restoring public order, detailing with riots in

10     prisons, and such very complex security tasks.  In other words, they do

11     what the regular police couldn't do.

12             Unfortunately, during that period of time, we had an example when

13     the special police was sent on a mission for very simple tasks that could

14     have easily been carried out by other services affiliated with the

15     Ministry of the Interior.  Since we participated in several places in

16     such actions against Serb individuals, groups, searching of their houses,

17     for example, in Pale and Pofalici, we obviously could feel a reaction

18     because our actions were fruitless.  However, very quickly all of us,

19     including me as an officer, realised that we were just a stick that was

20     used against the people because we used inappropriate force, excessive

21     force, the people revolted against that, obviously.  A special example of

22     that was Bilice.

23        Q.   Sir, you said, as per your answer:  "We obviously could feel a

24     reaction because our actions were fruitless."  Could you please explain

25     what you meant when you said that your actions were fruitless?

Page 33133

 1        A.   When they sent us to Bilice to find some large quantities of

 2     weapons apparently held by some people whose names I forget, we engaged a

 3     full special unit and mechanised equipment.  We turned up there.

 4     Obviously there was no result achieved, no weapons were found.  However,

 5     the people gathered.  They protested.  We were even blocked.  They

 6     wouldn't allow us to return.  The situation was dramatic.  And then those

 7     people sent us a message, that it was pointless to use our unit for such

 8     tasks in view of the fact that there was a SJB there that could have

 9     easily implemented a task.  That's why we were forced to seek explanation

10     from the minister of the interior and from the senior staff there.

11     Because they were the ones who very often exercised their right to send

12     our unit on such missions.

13        Q.   Was there ever any official justification received at the special

14     unit from the MUP of why these activities were being ordered?

15        A.   Sadly, no.  In one paragraph, I explain why we had to hold a

16     meeting with the MUP officials in the base in Krtelje.  Because there was

17     no explanation whatsoever.  Obviously it was one-sided.  One side wanted

18     such things to happen on the ground.  They wanted a special unit to flex

19     its muscles and to show its full strength.

20        Q.   Now, in paragraph 11 of your statement, on the same page in both

21     languages, you might have to scroll down on the Serbian original, you say

22     that the special police unit was made to do military training instead of

23     anti-terrorist training.  Was there any justification or reason given for

24     this change in training?

25        A.   The Ministry of Interior does not discuss the -- the orders

Page 33134

 1     received by superiors.  The principle of subordination has to function,

 2     which means that Vikic was in charge of training.  He was the commander

 3     of that unit, and he said that in addition to our normal training we have

 4     to do some other kinds of training in order to complete our knowledge.

 5             It was a big surprise for us because we had already been in

 6     training for some other weapons and some other tools which, in principle,

 7     are used in exceptional situation and in war time.  That was a

 8     conventional military training.  We were trained to use Zoljas and Osas

 9     and other types of weapons.  Something completely different than what we

10     did when we were trained to deal with hostage situations and things like

11     that.  What we had formerly done was all of a sudden neglected and we had

12     to do other things.

13             In technical sense, special attention was not paid to tactical

14     training but to tactical special training for military units, setting up

15     ambushes and other such things.  Obviously -- obviously we found that

16     surprising and we realised that something dramatic was happening to the

17     course of action and activities of the special police.

18        Q.   Now, you've described that the training that your unit underwent.

19     What kind of training was undertaken with respect to the special reserve

20     of unit which had been activated of mostly Muslim reservists?

21        A.   That training was somewhat different.  However, in essence it

22     involved weapons used in exceptional circumstances and in war time.

23     Those weapons were issued to us, and they were trained on those weapons

24     and some lower levels of tactical training.

25        Q.   And now if we could move on.  Paragraph 13 of your statement,

Page 33135

 1     which is?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, it's with some concern that I see that

 3     you're now at paragraph 13, it's a long statement, because you've used 28

 4     minutes out of your 30 minutes, and apart from that I unfortunately had

 5     to establish that a lot of the answers are overlapping very much with the

 6     written statement.

 7             So, therefore, could you please wind up.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, we sent an e-mail adjusting the

 9     estimate for this witness to be one hour and 15 minutes.  That was sent

10     yesterday.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yesterday.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  After my proofing with the witness.  And we

13     don't intend to go through all the paragraphs of the statement, just to

14     get some additional information as to ones that --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That doesn't change at, the same time, if you ask

16     for more specifics that the witness comes up with almost the same --

17     well, sometimes in slightly different language, but often the specifics

18     are still not there.  But we'll first verify when we received this

19     information.

20             Meanwhile, please could you try to speed up and avoid any

21     overlaps, which I found there to be up to 70, 80 per cent of the answers

22     of the witness.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  I will try to speed it up.

24             If we can look at paragraph 13 of the statement, and this is on

25     page 4 in both languages.

Page 33136

 1        Q.   And here you're talking about the recruitment of the all Muslim

 2     special reserve unit.  And when you say here:  "When they were

 3     registered, it was noted that a number of people did not have identity

 4     documents," et cetera, who was it that was registering them?

 5        A.   The headquarters of the Ministry of Interior was in charge of

 6     activating the reserve force.  When people were employed, it was taken

 7     into account that people who were selected were sent to the Krtelje base

 8     where they would be trained as a future special police.  When they first

 9     joined us, obviously we set up our records, and then we saw that some of

10     the people did not have Bosnian documents.  Some didn't even have IDs.

11     We looked at the situation and we realised that there were a lot of

12     people among them who were from Sandzak.  They were from Muslims but they

13     were from the Republic of Serbia.  There were officers from them who were

14     deserters and so on and so forth.  And the rest, of course, is in my

15     statement.

16        Q.   Yes.  So if we could move on so as to save time.  If we turn to

17     paragraph 16 in your statement, page 5 in English and the bottom of page

18     5 in the Serbian, and then it will bleed onto the next page in Serbian.

19             And this is the meeting of the officers of the special unit with

20     the Serb, Muslim, and Croat senior staff of the MUP, and you talked about

21     an agreement being reached here and that the Muslim representatives did

22     not adhere to that agreement.

23             First of all, I'd like to ask you if you have any date reference

24     or month reference for when this meeting would have taken place?

25        A.   Unfortunately, it was a long time ago.  Although I was a

Page 33137

 1     participant in all of these events, I can't remember the date.  I'm sure

 2     that the meeting was held in a month preceding the beginning of war

 3     conflicts in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I really can't tell you exactly

 4     when.  I did participate in the meeting.  I can talk about that meeting.

 5     I can testify about it and add on what is already in my statement.

 6        Q.   Without repeating what's already in your statement, was there

 7     anything else of significance that you recall being said at this meeting,

 8     especially from the Muslim participants of the same?

 9        A.   Of course, I remember.  I will never forget when the officer of

10     our special unit, Kemal Ademovic, took the floor.  The rest of us

11     officers said little.  A lot more was said by the officers from the

12     Ministry of the Interior who appeared to deal with the problem of the

13     misuse of the special unit.  I already told you what the problems were.

14     They tried to set up the future work of the unit and its use in consensus

15     with all the three representatives - the Serb, the Muslim, and the

16     Croat - and this was advocated by the Serb representative because that

17     solution would prolong the work of the unit on the condition that it was

18     not misused.

19             Kemal Ademovic was very negative and he spoke about the members

20     of the JNA, which was the regular army in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time,

21     and he said that his children would never serve in that army.  So if my

22     colleague from my unit said that at an official unit, if could no longer

23     contain the hatred against the Serbs who were a majority in the JNA, they

24     even referred to the JNA as the Serb Chetnik Armada, it became clear to

25     me that our further work together was impossible because there was a

Page 33138

 1     complete mistrust among the members of the units.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to paragraph 19 and that will be on

 3     page 6 in the English, and I believe it's either at the bottom of the

 4     page or the next page in the Serbian, if we could scroll down.  If we can

 5     scroll down in the Serbian.  Okay.  And if we could go to the next page,

 6     it's actually the next part of paragraph 19 I would like to reference.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, at the end of paragraph 19, you say:

 8             "Based on the agreement reached at the top of the MUP, the base

 9     in Vrace, in the MUP school, went to the Serbian part, and

10     Muslim/Croat [sic] part of the specials remained there Krtelje."

11             And then have you a reference to a document, which in our

12     proceedings 1D5309, which is the transcript of the testimony of

13     Alija Delimustafic in a case before the State Court of BiH.  What is the

14     reason that you cite to this testimony of this individual in relation to

15     what is contained in this paragraph?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we, at the same time, have a look at the

17     document.

18             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.  That would be then 1D5309.

19        Q.   And could you go ahead and answer, sir.

20        A.   At the collegium of the ministers -- Minister of the Interior

21     Alija Delimustafic, it was decided that the special unit of the

22     then-Ministry of the Interior would be split because it had become

23     impossible for them to work together.  That situation would have

24     certainly become a conflict some day and the decision was made that

25     the -- old base in Vrace would be given to the Serbian part of the

Page 33139

 1     police, it would be pavilion F, more specifically; and that the other

 2     part of the special police would remain either in Krtelje or wherever

 3     they wanted.  That decision was made at the collegium of the Ministry of

 4     the Interior.  That was confirmed in a case which was heard before the

 5     Special Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we were aware of that decision.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you assist us a bit in guiding us

 7     to the document where the relevant portion on the 16 pages is to be

 8     found?  Or is it all over?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it's in two sections.  The witness showed

10     me the B/C/S version when I was proofing him last night, and I'm now

11     responding to the Prosecution's objections raised.  I think for the sake

12     of time I can at the break locate those and give them to you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll hear from you.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  And I think you have the gist of what the

15     witness's testimony is, which is perhaps even more relevant at the

16     present, but I will find those selections for you and advise you after

17     the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Now if we could turn back to D935, your statement, and if we can

21     turn to page 7 in the English, and the bottom of 7 and it will bleed onto

22     page 8 in the Serbian, and this is the -- describing the attack upon your

23     unit when you tried to situate yourselves in the school compound as at

24     Vrace.  And towards the end of this paragraph -- I think it will be the

25     next page in the B/C/S.  There we go.  We're fine in English.  You say:

Page 33140

 1             "We released those attending the course, the leadership and the

 2     teaching staff, although we handed some of them over to the investigating

 3     authorities."

 4             First of all, I want to ask you how was the selection made of

 5     whom to hand over to the authorities?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off all unnecessary microphones.

 7     Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We managed to bring that to an end.

 9     At the end, we appointed very responsible people headed by Director

10     Balic, and the commander who was in charge of a defence, and four or five

11     people, two trainees, and some officers whose names I can't remember.  We

12     handed the -- the -- them over to the Pale station to establish how

13     crimes were committed against our members.  That was the criterion.  The

14     most responsible people among those who had waited for us there, who had

15     all sorts of weapons, who had a plan in place, and who had prevented us

16     from entering our base in Vrace according to the decision of

17     Minister Delimustafic.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Now just to finish up with this incident, on paragraph 22 on page

20     8 in the English and between pages 8 and 9 in the Serbian, in these -- in

21     this paragraph, you go into quite a bit of details --

22             MR. IVETIC:  We lost the Serbian.

23        Q.   In this paragraph you go into quite a bit of details about the,

24     quote/unquote, truth that you subsequently learned about these attacks.

25     Can you tell us the source or sources from whom you learned of all the

Page 33141

 1     details that are contained in this paragraph about this attack?

 2        A.   The source of that information are statements taken by the legal

 3     bodies in the SJB in Pale.  Those statements confirmed that there was a

 4     detailed plan to defend the centre.  That was the name of that plan,

 5     apparently.  That the person in charge was the director, Balic, who was a

 6     member of Minister Delimustafic's collegium, and that the forces within

 7     the centre were commanded by Dzevad Termiz.  He was an officer who had

 8     been trained in the JNA, who was appointed by the MUP.  He was well

 9     trained and very capable JNA officer.  He had graduated from the military

10     academy.  When we entered the premises, as you can see in the statement,

11     we personally saw the weapons that they had.  They had facilities which

12     were fortified for future combat and --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the same.  The witness gives very

14     general answers to statements taken in Pale, not by whom, when, who gave

15     those statements, and then within five seconds, moves to the substance

16     rather than to your question.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   When you say "those statements taken by the legal bodies at the

20     SJB Pale," first of all, from whom were those statements taken?

21        A.   Dzevad Termiz and others were those who gave the statements.  I

22     was interested in the statement who was in command -- the person who was

23     in command of the forces that were ordered to massacre us.  In that

24     statement, Dzevad Termiz gave a full account of the plan, activities,

25     tools, weapons, and the tasks they had been given to prevent the entrance

Page 33142

 1     of the Serbian special police.

 2        Q.   And who were the legal bodies at the SJB Pale to whom these --

 3     who took these statements?

 4        A.   I was not present.  That was done by professional members of the

 5     crime prevention police, most probably.  Active-duty officers as part of

 6     their regular activities.  They did that as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, page 23, line 1, the answer starts with

 8     "and others."  Was a name mentioned?  I missed it.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  There was.  He mentioned the name Dzevad Termiz

10     which is then at line 24 as well of page 22.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is that statement recorded somewhere or what

12     were the circumstances --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Termiz.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the name Termiz in the statement of the

15     witness.

16             When was that statement taken?  Witness, could you tell us?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say the date exactly, but

18     it was four or five days after these people were taken to Pale for an

19     investigation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And who --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date.  So it

22     could have been the 9th or something like.  I know that afterwards they

23     were released, six days later.  But, no, I was not in Pale, but did I get

24     information from the service.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Five days after what?  Six days -- what year, what

Page 33143

 1     month approximately?  I've got no idea.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The month of April 1992.  What

 3     happened in Vrace happened on the 5th of April.  After the armed incident

 4     was over, they were arrested and handed over to Pale, and they spent a

 5     total of five or six days there and then they were exchanged.  They were

 6     alive and well.  No problems whatsoever.  And that is when these

 7     statements came into being.  I cannot tell you the exact day or hour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you seen the statements?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Dzevad Termiz's statement was

10     made accessible to me.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it available to -- because we are now relying on

12     this source of information which ...

13             MR. IVETIC:  There is a copy in EDS.  It is not in e-court.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, for the Chamber always to be able

15     to assess the reliability of the evidence, we're always very happy to

16     receive documentary evidence which supports or at least is directly

17     related to the statement of a witness or the testimony of a witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think we are at the time for the

20     first break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We are at the time for the first break.

22             Before we take that break, Witness, you've emphasised several

23     times that -- I think it was Mr. Delimustafic who had a criminal record.

24     Could you tell us what was on it?  Was it -- what had been -- he had been

25     convicted of?

Page 33144

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot exactly confirm, but there

 2     is a record of Mr. Delimustafic, and then that can be looked into.  I

 3     believe that it is property-related crime, but I cannot confirm with

 4     certainty.  But what is for sure is that the judiciary organs dealt with

 5     him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Has he been convicted?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about these details.

 8     At any rate, we found out that our new minister had that kind of ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, please answer my questions.

10             So you don't know whether he was convicted, I do understand.

11     Whatever you found out, apart from that, is not what I asked for.  But if

12     you say someone has a criminal record, that is commonly understood as

13     someone being convicted by a court.  So to say that that's a detail is

14     not exactly my understanding of what it means if you say someone has a

15     criminal record.  But I leave it to that for the time being.

16             We take break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You

17     may follow the usher.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and resume at five minutes to

21     11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, while we wait for the witness I can

25     assist Your Honours with the citations that you were looking for earlier.

Page 33145

 1             In relation to 1D5309, the testimony of Alija Delimustafic, the

 2     second half of page 5 through the top of page 6, and then --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have that on the screen?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Sure.  1D5309.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Page 5 in e-court, the bottom half.

 7             Beginning with Counsel Serdarevic and then it says

 8     Witness Delimustafic from there on to the first few lines on page 6.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  And then also at page 7 until the middle of page 8

11     there's questioning by the accused Mandic on the same topic.  And then

12     the top of page 9 just a few lines talking about the work of the

13     collegium by Mr. Delimustafic.  Those would be, I think, the only

14     selections that are directly relevant from the 16 pages --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the statement of the witness in this

16     respect is still comprehensible without having this underlying material,

17     isn't it?  Because --

18             MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers].

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it's -- presuming that it's an associated

20     exhibits and the witness just said what the arrangement was for the --

21     where the police stations would be.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And that -- whether others say that as well doesn't

24     make it better comprehensible.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Agreed, Your Honour.

Page 33146

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, the other issue I had was the -- you had asked

 4     about the statement of Mr. Termiz.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  With some hesitation, I must say.  I asked for

 6     it because it could support or specify what the witness said.  There's

 7     still some doubt as to the relevance of the whole of the thing, so to

 8     seek further information in support of the witness's statement where the

 9     relevance is not entirely clear, of course I do that with some

10     hesitation, but, yes.

11             MR. IVETIC:  There are two - one handwritten, one typed - in

12     e-court in the B/C/S language.  The ERN of the handwritten is 0217-2714,

13     and the ERN of the typewritten is 0217-2724.  I'm not aware of an English

14     translation of the same.  Perhaps my colleagues on the other side might

15     have more information since we got the document from them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave in the hands of the parties whether they

17     think that it would be useful to pay further attention to those, either

18     for you in support or for the Prosecution challenging.

19             Let move on.  Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   If we could turn to page -- excuse me, if we could go back to

22     D935, your statement, and page 9 in both language versions, and I would

23     like to focus on paragraph 25 of the same.  You talk about how -- while

24     at Vrace you were subjected to daily attacks even with 60-, 82-, and

25     122-millimetre mortars from the Muslim side.  Did the special police

Page 33147

 1     units incur any casualties from these daily attacks by the Muslim side.

 2        A.   Yes, there were wounded persons.  Unfortunately, there were

 3     fatalities as well.  Not directly amongst the special police but one of

 4     the policeman.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I get no interpretation.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The microphone was on.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslim sniper hit us from Grbavica

 8     and this man was killed.  There were quite a few members of the special

 9     police that were killed.  I think that -- well, around us there was the

10     Territorial Defence.  We cannot confirm that.  We cannot confirm the

11     exact losses and the exact number of wounded persons, but among my own

12     personnel that I commanded then, there weren't any casualties within that

13     unit of ours.  Day and night we were attacked by artillery, and even more

14     often there were infantry attempts to take Vrace and the area that had

15     already been under our control.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to move to page 10 in the English and page 11 in

18     the Serbian, and paragraph 31 of your statement.

19             Here, you are talking about the Zute Ose or Yellow Wasp

20     paramilitary that you say refused to be subordinated to the command of

21     the regular armed forces and wilfully conducted criminal conduct in

22     Zvornik and harassed the local population.  What was the ethnicity of

23     those that were harassed by this paramilitary group?

24        A.   The paramilitary group the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik practically

25     took over completely.  They had their own check-points.  They had their

Page 33148

 1     own parapolice.  They had their own individuals in groups that were

 2     looting and mistreating Serbs and Muslims.  There were some of them there

 3     too, though in smaller numbers.  The Ministry of the Interior did not

 4     believe it was in their interest for our young government to govern in

 5     that way and such activities were disallowed.

 6             After the minister's order, activity followed from the Ministry

 7     of Interior of Republika Srpska aimed at arresting and bringing to

 8     justice the paramilitaries involved.

 9        Q.   Did any other organs assist --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask for -- first of all, Mr. Ivetic,

13     again the witness moves away from what you asked him.  But I have one --

14     you said there were mistreating Serbs and Muslims.  "There were some of

15     them there too, though in smaller numbers."  Who were there in smaller

16     numbers?

17             Are you referring to Muslims, are you referring to Serbs?  Are

18     you referring to member of the Yellow Wasps?  What did you refer to when

19     you said:  "There were some of them there too, though in smaller

20     numbers"?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary group Yellow Wasps

22     did not have any Muslims in their ranks.  When I said "smaller number," I

23     meant the Muslim population, but it was Serb civilians, the Serb

24     population, that was tortured by this paramilitary group that did not

25     have any Muslims within their ranks.

Page 33149

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And were Muslims tortured by them as well?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While preparing this action that I

 3     directly carried out with the special police and in co-operation with the

 4     military police, I think it was the 65th Protection Regiment.  It's not

 5     that I think.  They --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, why not answer my question rather than to

 7     tell us what --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 9             [Interpretation] I don't know about war crimes.  It was their

10     property-related crimes that were made known to me.  They were looting.

11     They were seizing whatever they could lay their hands on --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again I was not asking about the character

13     of the crimes committed.  Where you emphasised that Serbs were victims, I

14     asked you whether Muslims were tortured, were victims as well.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about victims among

16     all the inhabitants of Zvornik.  I don't know the exact number and at

17     this moment I cannot confirm that.  I didn't know then exactly what the

18     number was, but I know that they were looting, that they were stealing

19     from people, that they were applying force against the population of

20     Zvornik at their homes, at check-points, et cetera.  Therefore, one could

21     not live freely in the town of Zvornik.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But you have knowledge about the Serbs being

23     tortured by the Yellow Wasps.  Now, do you know that it was exclusively

24     Serbs or was everyone tortured?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you mean by the

Page 33150

 1     term "mucanje."  Obviously we mean a different thing.  I need to know

 2     what you mean by that word in order to be able to answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You are using an expression in a language I do not

 4     know.  You said that Serbs were tortured by the Yellow Wasps.

 5             My question simply was:  Was it just Serbs or were Muslims also

 6     tortured by the Yellow Wasps, and I invite you to answer that question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention the term

 8     "muciti."  Perhaps we have an interpretation problem.  I mentioned the

 9     word "maltretiranje."

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The word used was

11     "tortura."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then looting and mistreating, so I leave

13     apart what exactly the crimes were or what it was exactly done by the

14     Yellow Wasps.  Were non-Serbs victims of that behaviour as well,

15     including Muslims?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there were few Muslims in

17     Zvornik then.  However, if they were in Zvornik, then they were also a

18     target of the Yellow Wasps.  Everybody who was there had a problem with

19     the Yellow Wasps.  Everybody was a target.  I don't know the exact

20     numbers involved, but all the inhabitants of Zvornik had a problem with

21     the Yellow Wasps.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And when you're talking about smaller

23     numbers, you are referring to a period where not the whole of the former

24     Muslim population was still present in Zvornik or ...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the period when I

Page 33151

 1     had this operation of arresting a paramilitary formation.  At that time I

 2     did not know exactly what the ethnic composition was and I wasn't

 3     particularly interested in that.  I think that the majority were ethnic

 4     Serbs.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   You mentioned that the special police in co-operation with the

 8     military police, and specifically the 65th Protection Regiment,

 9     participated in the action to arrest the members of this paramilitary.

10     How large was the paramilitary group which was being disarmed and

11     arrested?

12        A.   According to our information, and later on that was confirmed

13     during the arrests, the force involved was about that of a battalion or

14     in numbers about 180, 170 men, something like that.

15        Q.   Okay.  And ... why had not the local police taken care of this?

16        A.   The local police did not have the capacity.  That is to say, they

17     were not trained sufficiently, they did not have sufficient personnel

18     levels to oppose a paramilitary formation that was armed with weapons

19     that were supposed to be used in war operations, in combat.  They didn't

20     have the strength to do that, the local police.

21        Q.   If we could now turn to page 13 in both languages of your

22     statement and paragraph 38 of the same, and this is talking about

23     16 July 1995 when you arrived at Zvornik.  And this paragraph of your

24     statement says that you were briefed about the situation and problems

25     concerning Zvornik.

Page 33152

 1             Can you be specific as to what exactly you were briefed on as to

 2     the situation and problems concerning Zvornik?

 3        A.   From Chief Vasic at the centre of security services, I was

 4     informed about the problems that the units were confronted with, the PJP

 5     units of the Ministry of Interior that were involved in the area of

 6     Zvornik.  I am primarily referring to companies of PJPs, special police

 7     units from Doboj.  And the information I received was that some people

 8     were taken prisoner, that a large column of Muslim soldiers who had not

 9     laid down weapons and surrendered in Srebrenica tried a breakthrough to

10     Tuzla.  I was told then that there were about 5.000 of them, that that

11     was the estimate of these forces, and that they constitute a major danger

12     for the army ant units of the Ministry of Interior that were

13     resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska, that they were moving

14     towards Tuzla, and that they took some of our policemen prisoners there.

15     They didn't inform me of anything more or anything less.

16             Those were the problems that I was informed about.  Had I been

17     informed about anything else, I probably would have written about that in

18     my statement.

19        Q.   Now prior to visiting Zvornik on this occasion you were at MUP

20     staff in Pale.  Can you tell us what your main activities or focus were

21     at the staff in Pale during this time-period; that is, July 1995?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.  My personal activity then had to do with a

23     newly established staff of the police forces in Pale that was

24     established, if I can remember exactly, sometime in mid-July or in the

25     second half of July, and its direct task was - and that is why it was

Page 33153

 1     established on the basis of an order of the minister of the interior -

 2     because of the participation of police units at the Sarajevo front.

 3             At that time, at the Sarajevo front, there was a Muslim offensive

 4     that was raging against the Serb positions around Sarajevo and there was

 5     this major danger of the defences breaking down, and that would have had

 6     unforeseeable consequences for the civilian population primarily, the

 7     Serb population in Sarajevo, eastern Sarajevo.  And the staff was

 8     established for the Sarajevo-Romanija area, to use military jargon.  And

 9     I was a member of the staff most of the time in that area, and the

10     headquarters of the staff was in Pale.

11        Q.   You are recorded as saying that the staff was established

12     sometime in mid-July or the second half of July.  Is that accurate?

13        A.   No, you misspoke.  The staff was established in mid-June or the

14     second half of June.  So it's not the month of July.  It is the month of

15     June 1995.  June.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm trying to seek some clarifications

17     since the matter is addressed now.

18             You say on the day when you arrived in Zvornik, you first went to

19     the CJB where you were briefed about the situation, and you said that was

20     mid-July 1995, if I understood you well.  Now, we are usually making

21     clear distinction between all the specific days in mid-July.  Do you

22     remember when in mid-July you arrived in Zvornik?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived Zvornik on the 16th of

24     July, 1995.  I arrived at the security services centre in Zvornik.  I

25     communicated with the chief of that centre because I was the head of a

Page 33154

 1     sector who had arrived on the verbal order of the minister of the

 2     interior who has -- who had asked me to go on a mission.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I asked for a date, just for a date.

 4             Was that the same day when, as you said, you had received a

 5     verbal order from Mr. Kovac?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Now, in answering one of my prior questions, you talked about the

11     offensive against Serb positions around Sarajevo, and you said that there

12     was a major danger of the defences breaking down and that would have been

13     unforeseeable consequences for the civilian populations.

14             What kinds of consequences were you dealing with at the time that

15     you were at the staff in Pale that would result from the Muslim

16     offensive?

17        A.   I spent most of my time over there in touring Sarajevo

18     municipalities.  That's where the brigades of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

19     were deployed and the units of the Ministry of the Interior were

20     resubordinated to them.  They fought to preserve defence positions there.

21     I monitored the situation in some of those municipalities.  In some of

22     the municipalities, the situation was very complex.  It was difficult to

23     hold on.  In some, the situation was better.  However, I also inspected

24     some civilian structures because in the zone of the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, there was a state of war declared, so I

Page 33155

 1     inspected the staffs, the civilian staffs, and I was informed by the

 2     presidents of the Crisis Staffs of those municipalities about the

 3     civilian situation.  Because if the defence lines were too full, I would

 4     have had to activate Plan B which was the evacuation of the population.

 5     That would have made the situation very complicated.  It would have

 6     compounded the situation even further, which is why we had to monitor

 7     developments constantly, 24/7.  If I may continue, I would like to add

 8     another sentence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ask Mr. Ivetic whether you moved away from his

10     question or whether he thinks it still is within.

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   I would like to ask a question and see if you can answer that in

13     one sentence:  How many civilians are we talking about in terms of the

14     population that, under Plan B, would have to be evacuated if the Muslim

15     offensive broke through the lines?

16        A.   Well, if we're talking about the Serbian population in the then

17     Serbian Sarajevo, we're talking about 150.000 Sarajevo civilians, Serbs,

18     who were residing in the territory of all Sarajevo municipalities.

19             If the line had fallen down and the action by the Muslim forces

20     was launched from within the city -- the 1st Corps of the BiH Army was

21     active all the time day and night, there were infantry attacks, sniper

22     attacks, they opened fire on every position, every different position of

23     the Army of Republika Srpska.  However -- let me finish.  There was also

24     another ring which was in the direction of Central Bosnia --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.  You asked again and

Page 33156

 1     again to finish.  You can finish an answer to the question.  Mr. Ivetic

 2     told you that if you could answer in one line, he would appreciate that.

 3     You gave the number.  That's it.  Therefore, as long as you stay within

 4     the context of the question, you can continue.  If you move away from

 5     that, we'll stop you.

 6             Mr. Ivetic, just for you to know that you've three minutes left.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   And I think my last question will be just to have you briefly

 9     again, sir, please explain what you mean when you say there was another

10     ring.  And that will be my last question.

11             MR. IVETIC:  And I thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if Mr. Mladic wants to consult with

13     counsel.  He has an opportunity to do so but at inaudible volume.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not inaudible.  Could you please ...

16             Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud.  I again insist on that.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   If I can then instead ask:  Was there any international

20     agreements in place on the territory of Sarajevo for either cease-fire or

21     demilitarisation of that area at the time of this Muslim offensive that

22     you've identified?

23        A.   I can't remember any of the agreements, but I know that the

24     Muslim offensive lasted for 22 days both from the inner ring as well as

25     the outer ring, but I can't remember exactly what kind of agreements were

Page 33157

 1     in place at the time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're doing exactly the same again.  You

 3     start saying "I can't remember," and then you draw our attention to

 4     matters which you consider relevant.  But it's Mr. Ivetic who puts the

 5     questions, so would you please refrain from doing that again and again

 6     and again.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, you said this was your last question.  The witness

 8     doesn't remember.  Is that?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Then that's my last question.  I think he has now

10     completed what he was talking about about the rings, so I think that all

11     that I wanted on the record is there.

12        Q.   On behalf of my client and the rest of the team, I thank you for

13     answering my questions today, sir.  I have no more questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

15             Ms. Pack, are you ready to examine the witness?

16             MS. PACK:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karisik, you'll now be examined by Ms. Pack.

18     You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Pack is counsel for the Prosecution.

19             Please proceed.

20             And I again, Mr. Karisik, I again remind you that you should

21     focus your answer on the questions put to you, and if you go beyond that,

22     we'll stop you.  And we're not inclined to do that 10 or 20 times, so

23     please keep that in the back of your mind.

24             Please proceed.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

Page 33158

 1                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pack:

 2        Q.   Mr. Karisik, just to go back through your various positions you

 3     held.  From April 1992, commander of the 1st Special Police Unit of the

 4     RS MUP, known as the police detachment, then later in 1992 you became

 5     commander of the special police brigade, which is what the special unit

 6     became; yes?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   By July 1995 you were head of the public security department of

 9     MUP?

10        A.   First the chief of the police administration for a while, and

11     then I was appointed the head of the public security department in

12     November 1995.

13        Q.   Under Tomislav Kovac in 1995?

14        A.   Yes.  He had a higher position in the Ministry of the Interior.

15     He was above me.

16        Q.   Your counterpart then in July 1995, Dragan Kijac, head of the

17     State Security Department; right?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   You ended up after the war as deputy minister?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   When was that were you appointed?

22        A.   I believe you'll find it in my statement.  I can't remember

23     exactly.

24        Q.   You talk in your statement, paragraph 6, you don't need to look

25     at it, you talk about the outstanding professionals in the special unit

Page 33159

 1     before the war.  You, yourself, you regard yourself as an outstanding

 2     professional in the MUP?

 3        A.   I would kindly ask you whenever you mention a paragraph, whenever

 4     you want to discuss a paragraph and display it, can it be enlarged in the

 5     B/C/S version, for my benefit.

 6        Q.   I don't want to discuss it.  I'm asking, do you regard yourself

 7     as an outstanding professional in the MUP?

 8        A.   Yes, an outstanding professional in the special police unit.

 9        Q.   And you were --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack.

11             Witness, it's my recollection that you were provided with a hard

12     copy of your own statement, so if any reference is made to any paragraph,

13     you received that.  So you always can have a look at it if it's -- if

14     it's not well visible on the screen for you.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. PACK:

17        Q.   You were highly trained and you were promoted to general by the

18     end?

19        A.   Yes.  By a decree of the president on the proposal of the

20     Ministry of Interior in compliance with the Law on the Internal Affairs,

21     all officers were promoted within the MUP.  A certain number of us were

22     promoted and became generals.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one asked you about others.  Now you

24     really have to stick to the question because finally the Chamber may come

25     to a point where we just do not accept you moving away and expanding on

Page 33160

 1     questions.  That should be clear to you.  The simple answer was yes, and

 2     if you added "by a decree of the president," that is already beyond what

 3     was asked, on the proposal of whom was also not what was asked.  Perhaps

 4     I would not have stopped you there.  But if you then say what happened to

 5     others, then you really move far away from the question.

 6             Please stick to the question.  And as I said before, we're not

 7     going to remind you 10 or 20 times and waste our time on listening to

 8     what was not asked.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   I'd like to clarify paragraph 19 of your witness statement which

12     is in front of you, so you can have a look at it.  It's about division of

13     the MUP.

14             MS. PACK:  And for Your Honours, it's 1D04749a.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now D935.

16             MS. PACK:  Thank you.  And if we can just to e-court, for the

17     English it's page 6 and the B/C/S it's page 6 to 7.

18        Q.   But you have the B/C/S in front of you.

19             Just looking at this paragraph 19, you tell us about halfway

20     down:

21             "That is why we were relieved when a dispatch arrived about the

22     splitting of the MUP, which was signed by Mr. Momcilo Mandic in his

23     capacity as authorised official.  This was agreed and co-ordinated at the

24     level of leadership of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina in keeping with

25     the treaty of Lisbon/Cutileiro Plan."

Page 33161

 1             I was going to ask you about that.

 2             MS. PACK:  Could we have please P3009 up.

 3             Now it's one page in the B/C/S.  Two pages in the English.

 4        Q.   And what you could see in the B/C/S at the bottom.  Might not be

 5     able to see it now, but it's signed by Mandic.  Correct?

 6        A.   I can see Momcilo Mandic's signature.  To be honest, I am in a

 7     position -- in no position to tell you whether this is, indeed, his

 8     signature or not.  But that's how it's signed:  Mr. Momcilo Mandic, and

 9     there's a signature.  I don't know if it's indeed his or not.

10        Q.   Okay.  The date is the 31st of March.  It's addressed, you can

11     see, to the minister, to the SJBs, to the CSBs, et cetera.  It's the

12     dispatch to which you refer in paragraph 19; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Pack, you should add the year, 1992.

15             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

16        Q.   31st of March, 1992.  And now please if you just look at the end

17     of this first paragraph where it starts:

18             "In order to conduct internal affairs on the territory of the

19     Republic of Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ministry of

20     Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina based in

21     Sarajevo is setting up the following Security Services Centres..."

22             And it goes on.  Do you see that?

23        A.   If I have to discuss the dispatch, I would need to read it, and

24     for that, the entire document should be enlarged.  This is a dispatch

25     sent by the then-deputy minister of the interior.  I'm in no position

Page 33162

 1     to --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you were asked whether you saw what

 3     Ms. Pack read to you.  Apparently you do.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   If -- in fact, we can enlarge the second paragraph in the B/C/S.

 7     And you can read that.

 8        A.   Give me a moment, please, to read it.

 9        Q.   I'll read it out:

10             "Within the above-mentioned Security Services Centres, in order

11     to carry out specific tasks and duties within the competence of the

12     organs of internal affairs, public security stations are set up for the

13     territories of municipalities."

14             Then:

15             "On the day this law comes into force, the Security Services

16     Centres and public security stations of the Socialist Federal Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP on the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina are abolished and cease to function and their authority,

19     i.e., tasks and duties within the competence of organs of internal

20     affairs are taken over by the above-mentioned organisational units of the

21     MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22             Have you read that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mandic declared in this dispatch on the 31st of March, 1992, that

25     from the 1st of April republican CSB and SJB stations would cease to

Page 33163

 1     function and would be taken over by Bosnian Serb CSBs and SJBs; right?

 2     That's a what it says?

 3        A.   Yes.  You have now read one part of the dispatch.  I can see a

 4     very minuscule version of that text.  But I would not discuss anything

 5     that was sent by Mr. Momcilo Mandic.  That should be a question for him.

 6     And what is your question for me?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, wait for a question.  Second,

 8     whether it's a question for you or for Mr. Mandic is not for you decide

 9     but is for Ms. Pack to decide.  If you don't know the answer, just tell

10     us.  If you do know the answer, irrespective of whether you thought it

11     would be better put to someone else, answer the question.

12             Please proceed, Ms. Pack.

13             MS. PACK:

14        Q.   Mr. Karisik, I'm trying to clarify what you say in your own

15     statement at paragraph 19 where you say you refer to this dispatch.  You

16     say this happened as a result of a signed agreement, the Cutileiro Plan

17     or the Treaty of Lisbon, as you call it, and that it was agreed by the

18     republican MUP leadership; right?

19        A.   My answer is that this part which refers to the special police is

20     the only part I can comment upon.  I can't comment upon the rest of the

21     dispatch.  As far as our special police are concerned ...

22        Q.   Right.  So would it surprise you to learn that there is no such

23     thing as the Lisbon treaty and that the so-called Cutileiro Plan that you

24     refer to here in paragraph 19 was a statement of principles described as

25     the "basis of future negotiations," dated 18th of March, 1992?  Did you

Page 33164

 1     know that?

 2        A.   I knew that there was a dispatch issued by Mr. Momcilo Mandic.

 3     We also knew that the Cutileiro Plan had been issued.  That's all we

 4     knew.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you, please, to look at another document.

 6             MS. PACK:  It is 65 ter 10750.

 7        Q.   And you can see on the B/C/S at page 1, it's -- in the English

 8     translation at page 2 it is from Alija Delimustafic, the minister of the

 9     republican MUP.  You can see that?

10             MS. PACK:  No, B/C/S page 1, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be enlarged?  Do you want the first part or

12     the second part, Ms. Pack.

13             MS. PACK:  I want to go to the second part, please.  Second and

14     third paragraphs I'll be looking at.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you read it, Witness?

16             MS. PACK:  Right.

17        Q.   So this is dated the 31st --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked the witness if he could read it.

19             MS. PACK:  I apologise, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you read the --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but it will take some

22     time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You can read it.  It's large enough.  That was my

24     question.

25             Please proceed.

Page 33165

 1             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So we this -- it's for Alija Delimustafic, it's dated at

 3     the top there 31st of March, 1992, same day as the dispatch from Mandic,

 4     and it's to all the MUP administrations.  You can see that at the top.

 5     The SDB, the CSB, SJBs, SMs, the police stations; right?

 6             And just briefly at paragraph 1, the first paragraph, it's

 7     English page 1 in the first paragraph, B/C/S, same page, briefly that

 8     paragraph refers, doesn't it, you can see the reference number in the

 9     name to the Mandic dispatch I've just shown you in the middle of that

10     paragraph; right?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karisik, do you agree that reference is made to

12     the dispatch we just looked at which was --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there's a reference to a

14     dispatch.  I can see it written here.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that

17     Minister Delimustafic makes reference to Mr. Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. PACK:  Okay.  And in the English, please, page 2, B/C/S same

20     page, it's the second paragraph I'm going to read.

21        Q.   He says:

22             "Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to again express

23     my belief that the greatest number of MUP workers wish to work in a

24     united MUP and that they find any segregation, especially on a national

25     basis, difficult.  Do not allow anyone to separate you from your work

Page 33166

 1     colleagues, because there are countless examples of mutual solidarity and

 2     sacrifice for others in carrying out security tasks even in conditions in

 3     which their execution endangers one's ... life."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "One's own life."

 5             MS. PACK:  "One's own life."  Thank you for the correction.

 6        Q.   Were you aware that Delimustafic the republican minister did not

 7     agree to the abolishment of the republican CSBs and SJBs or to the

 8     division of the MUP upon national or ethnic lines?

 9        A.   No, I was not aware of that.  I have not seen this dispatch

10     before at all.

11             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, I'd like to admit.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The number P7212, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

15             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Now I'd like to show you P00406.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it.  Could I ask the

18     witness --

19             Witness, in your statement you say that this was an action which

20     was agreed upon.  Now you're shown another dispatch issued by

21     Delimustafic which says the contrary.  On what basis did you state that

22     it was agreed upon?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of a decision of

24     Mr. Delimustafic's collegium.  I stated that the division of the special

25     police entailed division of their headquarters.  I've not seen this

Page 33167

 1     dispatch before.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the one document you referred to in your

 3     statement doesn't say anything about an agreement, does it?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, those are the pages numbers that I had

 5     directed you to and this is the document the Prosecution objected as

 6     being not -- well, they objected to the admission of it, so it's not been

 7     admitted.  It's 1D5310.  And again, the page numbers I had --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you say that those portions of it do

 9     support that.  Of course, I only had a glance to it.  If I have read them

10     not sufficiently accurately, then I'll do that again.

11             MR. IVETIC:  They discussion the whole development of the

12     situation through the collegium and that, specifically pages 9 and 10,

13     the minister says nothing can be done without an

14     [Overlapping speakers] ... collegium.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll have a further look at it and perhaps read it

16     in more detail.  That's one of the problems the Judges have, that they

17     are presented with documents of several pages and we only received the

18     relevant information when we came back to court.

19             Please proceed.

20             MS. PACK:  Well, Your Honour, this is the extracts from the book,

21     "Sarajavan [phoen] Roulette," I take it, that my friend is giving

22     evidence about its content that he didn't take the witness to.  But I'm

23     unclear --

24             MR. IVETIC:  The testimony --

25             MS. PACK:  Okay.

Page 33168

 1             MR. IVETIC:  -- of Minister Alija Delimustafic, the man who

 2     authored the dispatch that you had on the screen previously, 5D -- pardon

 3     me, 1D5309.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the 16-page extract not only the statement

 5     of Delimustafic, as you told us, but also a statement of I think the

 6     accused in that case.  But at least recordings of proceedings of which

 7     the Chamber is not aware exactly what the proceedings were about in 2007,

 8     but at least there were proceedings apparently, before I take it, the

 9     state court because I saw a reference made to judges, international

10     judges.

11             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  It's a proceeding in

12     the case of Mandic.  And when I indicated Mr. Mandic the accused, he was

13     examining or questioning Mr. Delimustafic in part.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for clarity, Mr. Ivetic, the number 1D5315

16     was erroneously used by you.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  It should be 1D5309.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Pack --  well, I'm looking at

21     the clock.  Perhaps it's better not to proceed at this moment but,

22     rather, to take a break first.

23             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We'll take a

24     break, and you may now follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 33169

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter past 12.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to be escorted in the

 5     courtroom.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, if you're ready, please proceed.

 8             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Karisik, we have up on the screen there P00406.  It's a

10     record of the Bosnian Serb Assembly Session of the 24th of March, 1992.

11             MS. PACK:  And if we can go, please, in the English to page 22

12     and the B/C/S to page 39.

13        Q.   Right.  In the B/C/S I'm asking you to look at the second

14     paragraph on that page, and in the English the fifth paragraph.  And can

15     you take it from me it's Mr. Karadzic speaking.

16             MS. PACK:  You see that on the previous pages, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Now, I'll just read out from the record, beginning:  "You can be

18     sure that..."

19             "You can be sure that numbers of the police are quite sufficient.

20     I know that the Serbs cannot do what the HOS is doing, to do things which

21     are not based on law.  We have a legal basis in the Law on Internal

22     Affairs and we also have the insignia and at a desired moment, and this

23     will be very soon, we can form whatever we want.  There are reasons why

24     this could happen in two or three days.  Such are the forecasts, but I

25     cannot tell you the reasons now.  At that moment, all the Serbian

Page 33170

 1     municipalities both the old ones and the newly established ones, would

 2     literally assume control of the entire territory of the municipality

 3     concerned.  The Zvornik municipality takes control over everything that

 4     constitutes the Serbian municipality of Zvornik.  Then, at a given

 5     moment, in the next three or four days, there will be a single method

 6     used and you will be able to apply it in the municipalities you

 7     represent, including both things that must be done as well as how to do

 8     them.  How to separate the police force, take the resources that belong

 9     to the Serbian people and take command.  The police must be under the

10     control of the civilian authority, it must obey it, there is no

11     discussion about that - and that's the way it must be.  I think we shall

12     hear it today in the form of instructions at the Deputies Club."

13             So Karadzic is forecasting on the 24th of March, 1992, the

14     taking-over of control over territory and that the Serbian MUP already in

15     part of that process; right?

16        A.   This is the first time I see this document as well.  I couldn't

17     have seen it earlier because I'm not a member of the Assembly of the Serb

18     People.  My position then was one of the supervisors of one part of the

19     police within the Ministry of the Interior.  I never came across this,

20     and I never received anything that would make it compulsory for me to act

21     upon this.

22             This is political talk.  I'm a professional.  And I was far away

23     from that then.  I find all of this unknown, these decisions, these

24     transcripts.  I have no comment.  I'm not supposed to comment on it.  I

25     didn't act on this at the time.  I was not aware of it, either.  That's

Page 33171

 1     my answer.

 2        Q.   Well, you've talked about politics in your statement at

 3     paragraph 19.  You were an outstanding professional, so you say, in the

 4     MUP.  You would agree, wouldn't you, that you knew that long before the

 5     end of March the Serbian MUP, together with the Serbian Territorial

 6     Defence, would be the means by which Serb control over territory in

 7     Bosnia was secured before the VRS was established, and you knew that?

 8        A.   You've made several statements that I'm not aware of.  I just

 9     know one thing:  What happened to me at the joint special unit, what the

10     problems were that I encountered, and ultimately what my decision was

11     because even my life was threatened because there was this disruption in

12     the relations there, and I know that the division of the unit was done

13     well, it was at the collegium of Minister Delimustafic, I can speak about

14     that.  As for political decisions that I knew -- that I did not know of,

15     I was not supposed to be informed about that either.  I just took into

16     account what was happening in my micro-cycle.

17        Q.   Well, let me ask to play a video please.

18             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, it's 65 ter 32286a.  And there are B/C/S

19     and English translations available and they will come up.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, I think we have to play it again.

22             MS. PACK:  I understand that we play it again, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that we receive the English interpretation.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The historical moment of the time

Page 33172

 1     in which this meeting is being held can be compared to other critical

 2     moments at the very beginning of the war, perhaps even to the meeting

 3     held at the very Holiday Inn Hotel in Sarajevo when we, together with the

 4     political structures from the ranks of the Serbian people, received

 5     instructions for creating a Serbian state in the territory of the former

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  For the purpose of the most vivid presentation

 7     of the current historical moment in which we find ourselves as members of

 8     the MUP of Republika Srpska and of the Serbian people, I have to remind

 9     you of some moments at the beginning of the war.

10             "The former MUP personnel of Serb nationality were the first

11     among all Serb institutions in the territory of the former BiH who

12     created a state organ - the then-Serb MUP - as an organ of this Serb

13     state, created MUP combat units which, together with the Territorial

14     Defence units created by the Serbian Democratic Party in all places in

15     Republika Srpska, existed as the backbone of the Serbian movement in the

16     fight for the protection of the people and the creation of the Serbian

17     state."

18             MS. PACK:  Thank you.  We can have the transcript on the screen

19     as well in B/C/S and English, but I'm just going to ask a quick couple of

20     questions.

21        Q.   That person talking in the clip Tomislav Kovac; yes?

22        A.   Yes, I recognise him.  It's Tomislav Kovac, deputy minister of

23     the interior.  I don't know when in terms of time this occurred.  The

24     time, date, year.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked whether you recognised the person and

Page 33173

 1     apparently you do.

 2             At the same time, Ms. Pack, the Chamber, of course, also would be

 3     interested to know when this was broadcasted or where it comes from.

 4     That's a proper way of introducing such a video.

 5             MS. PACK:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's an excerpt from a compilation

 6     of documentary and news programmes from the TV station SRT, Serbian Radio

 7     Television.  Now I gather that this is dated 1995, but I don't have a

 8     date on the interview to indicate that.  I can check with the witness,

 9     it's certainly before the war, and I can confirm that with him.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take that you have your own knowledge about

11     it as well, so you put to him what you think is.  But you could ask the

12     witness.

13             Please proceed as you consider appropriate.

14             MS. PACK:

15        Q.   This was Kovac before the end of the war, before the end of 1995;

16     correct?

17        A.   Well, I cannot confirm that just like you cannot what the exact

18     time is, but I think that it's possible that it's that period, when he

19     held the position of the deputy minister of the interior of

20     Republika Srpska.  It is possible that this is some ceremony at which he

21     is speaking.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And he was holding that position in 1995, we know,

23     promoted to minister later in 1995; is that right?  Yes?

24        A.   As far as I know, yes.

25        Q.   And he's talking about events going back, 1991 and 1992; right?

Page 33174

 1        A.   Yes.  This is a speech of his own on the occasion of this

 2     ceremony.  It is a ceremonial speech.  Now what is the question for me?

 3        Q.   You wanted a question just about your very narrow field of

 4     interest, as you say in 1992, you -- you heard Mr. Kovac say that MUP

 5     combat units along with the Territorial Defence were the "backbone of the

 6     Serbian movement in the fight for the protection of the people and the

 7     creation of the Serbian state."

 8             This is before the VRS was established.  You would agree with

 9     that, would you, backbone of the Serbian movement to create a Serbian

10     state?

11        A.   Yes, I agree that that is the period from the 5th of April up

12     until sometime in mid-May.  Until the Army of Republika Srpska was

13     established.  On that, I agree with what he said.  That is when armed

14     operations started and war started, this unfortunate war in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that into evidence,

17     the clip.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32286a receives number P7213.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7213 is admitted.

21             MS. PACK:

22        Q.   You've just spoken about the period after the VRS was

23     established, and I'd like to show you, please, another video.

24             MS. PACK:  This is 32287b.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 33175

 1             MS. PACK:  And, Your Honours, could we play that again.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We play it again so that the Chamber receives and

 3     everyone else receives English translation.

 4             Please proceed.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] As the commander of the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska just said, and I have to repeat it here, the Ministry of

 8     Interior and its members - both those who take part in the defence of

 9     Republika Srpska and those who work inside on their regular police

10     tasks - and the Army of Republika Srpska are a single organism, a single

11     cell -- or rather, many cells in a single organism with their roles in

12     the organism.  This is an indivisible force, you know, that together make

13     up the armed forces of Republika Srpska, and we can promise our people in

14     the area of Republika Srpska that as long as they have their army and the

15     elite units of the Ministry of the Interior, they should not worry about

16     a single bullet in Republika Srpska being shot by a wild attacking

17     enemy."

18             MS. PACK:  And, Your Honours, again, just for Your Honours, this

19     is an excerpt again from Serbian Radio Television, SRT, documentaries and

20     clips relating to statements and interviews of the individual I'm going

21     ask the witness to identify.

22        Q.   Witness, Mico Stanisic in the clip?

23        A.   Yes, that is the first minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.

24     But I would kindly ask -- ask you to tell me what the period is when this

25     took place?  The time?

Page 33176

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, wait, wait.  It's for you to answer

 2     questions, not to take the lead in how to proceed.  Leave that to the

 3     parties and to the Bench.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Are you able to date this looking at Mico Stanisic in that video?

 7        A.   Me?  No.

 8        Q.   Now, having heard what he said, I'm going ask you a question.

 9     You agree that the army and the police worked together, as he said, as a

10     single organism, a single cell or, rather, many cells in a single

11     organism after the VRS was established?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm going to object.  Without a time

14     reference, I think the question is too vague and speculative.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The question will then cover a period in which

16     Mr. Stanisic was apparently in a position to make statements on the

17     matter.

18             Witness, is there -- could you confirm or would you deny that in

19     the Republika Srpska that the army and the police would work together as

20     a single organism, a single cell or, rather, many cells in a single

21     organism after the VRS was established?  So that is after early May 1992.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that the Army of

23     Republika Srpska and the units of the Ministry of the Interior of

24     Republika Srpska constitute the armed forces of Republika Srpska.  That

25     is a constitutional and legal category in Republika Srpska.

Page 33177

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether, as far as you understand,

 2     they would work together as a single organism, a single cell, or, rather,

 3     many cells in a single organism.  That was the question.  If you can,

 4     tell us; if you are unable to tell us, please say that as well.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This pertains to the participation

 6     in combat operations only.  My understanding of the remarks made by

 7     Minister Stanisic is that this pertains to participation in combat

 8     operations in the defence of Republika Srpska.

 9             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, I'd tender that clip into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32287b receives number P7214.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7214 is admitted.

13             MS. PACK:  Thank you.  Your Honour, I'd ask please to show 03216.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this a 65 ter number or a P number?

15             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.  It's a 65 ter number.

16        Q.   Now you, of course, recognise this.  It's the Law on Internal

17     Affairs adopted, as you can see, on the 28th of February, 1992.

18     Recognise the document?

19        A.   Yes, you can see that this is the Law on Internal Affairs.

20        Q.   I'm going to ask you about a couple of provisions.

21             MS. PACK:  If we go to the English translation at page 6 and the

22     B/C/S also at page 6.

23        Q.   I just want to ask you about Article 43.  You can just read it.

24             "Authorised officials must execute orders issued by the minister

25     or by their immediate senior official for the purposes [sic] of

Page 33178

 1     performing activities and tasks related to national and public security

 2     except when such orders contravene the constitution and the law."

 3             Question:  Part of what this article says is that orders in the

 4     MUP came from the minister; right?

 5        A.   Yes, issuing orders is within the exclusive remit of the

 6     minister, according to the principle of subordination and hierarchy which

 7     prevailed in the Ministry of the Interior.  It says here that everybody

 8     is duty bound to comply with the minister's orders unless orders were

 9     issued at any level and constituted a crime.  It says here they would be

10     contrary to the law and constitution.  This means that our law, which are

11     binding on the minister and all the officials of the Ministry of the

12     Interior, are duty-bound to honour the provisions and articles of the

13     Law on Internal Affairs.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, if the witness moves to an area which is

15     not covered by your question, then unless you consider that you wanted

16     all this, but then I would have phrased the question differently; that

17     is, to further analyse the content of this article where you just asked

18     whether orders would come from the MUP -- would come from the minister.

19             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour, for your indication.

20             Can we go to the English translation page 2, B/C/S page 3.

21        Q.   And I'm going to ask you just to look at Article 15.  Now, brief

22     answer to this question, please.  I'm not going to read this all out.

23     This article, you can see, it describes the role of the public security

24     service of which you were head in 1995; correct?  This article does --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, it's fine that you don't read it, but then

Page 33179

 1     you should give -- either inquire whether the witness is familiar with

 2     Article 15 or give him time to read it.

 3             MS. PACK:  Of course.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are you familiar with Article 15, Witness?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask some time to

 6     read.  In principle, I am familiar with the regulations within the sphere

 7     of internal affairs.  However, if you want me to discuss a specific

 8     article, I would love to be able to read it first.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Haven't I been clear enough that time will be given

10     to read it?

11             Please do so.  Read Article 15.  And please tell us when you are

12     done.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I've had enough time and

14     that I can follow the question.

15             MS. PACK:

16        Q.   You are, of course, already familiar with Article 15; right?

17        A.   I believe so, yes.  These are the basic competences of the public

18     security department.

19        Q.   And those basic competencies included preventing crimes and

20     tracking down and arresting perpetrators of criminal offences; right?

21     Yes or no.

22        A.   I apologise.  I don't understand the word "crime," because in my

23     version of the text it says "a criminal act."  It's a matter of

24     terminology, but important.  I understand the question -- I don't

25     understand the question.

Page 33180

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we have the text before us, Ms. Pack, so let's

 2     move on and put your next question to the witness.

 3             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

 4             And just the next page, Article 18, please.  Page 3 in the B/C/S

 5     and in the English.

 6        Q.   And, again, you recognise Article 18, familiar with it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And it's talking about the National Security Service; right?

 9        A.   I can see only the beginning of this article, and can I see that

10     term in the title, "national security," so yes.

11             MS. PACK:  Now, Your Honour, I would ask, please, to have this

12     document admitted into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at -- what is the total number of

14     pages of this document?

15             MS. PACK:  I can go through more provisions but it's actually not

16     that many.  It's a total in the English of 17 pages, and it's just the

17     rest of the Law on Internal Affairs.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do we need them all?  You have addressed a few

19     articles.  Do we need all 18 pages in the English version?

20             MS. PACK:  Well, I can go through another couple of articles.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm not asking you to go into other articles.

22     But if you want to draw our attention to certain elements in this law,

23     then -- and otherwise you can explain that you need the whole of the --

24     the whole of the text because you would refer to it with another --

25     whatever it is, but we'd like it know where you addressed, until now,

Page 33181

 1     only a few articles, whether we need the whole of the text.

 2             MS. PACK:  Yes, my preference would be to have the whole of the

 3     text in, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And for what reason?

 5             MS. PACK:  Because there are other articles that I would refer

 6     to.  Not the whole of the law, obviously, but I'm -- for example, I

 7     would -- could take the witness to another couple of articles.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then wait for a while, then we'll hear where

 9     you take the witness.  But the mere fact that there are other articles,

10     in itself is that a very strong reason?  Because if you have one page of

11     a book and say, I want all pages, if the question would be why, because

12     there are other pages, that's, of course, not very convincing an

13     argument.

14             If you -- so it's -- please -- please proceed.  And then make up

15     your mind once you've dealt with all you intended to deal with and see

16     whether we still need the whole of the law or whether we can do with part

17     of it.

18             MS. PACK:  Well, Your Honours, actually I could just circumvent

19     having -- your having to wait and perhaps ask to have the law up to and

20     including Article 43, which I addressed, that's at page 6, so at least

21     for now pages 1 to 6 the English.  And so far as the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you do not understand me.  If you take

23     the last paragraph and say therefore we need everything in between is

24     similarly not a very strong argument, if I could -- of course, what we

25     want is focused admission of evidence relevant in relation to the

Page 33182

 1     testimony of this witness.

 2             MS. PACK:  Well, Your Honours, can I just deal with now which

 3     pages it would be -- advised would -- having -- in my submission, could I

 4     have pages 1, 2, 3, of the English; 4, which talks about Article 26 which

 5     I'll come to; and then 6, which is Article 43.  And that's that.  And

 6     then I'd -- the relevant B/C/S pages.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you have to upload all that --

 8             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in such a format that it can be admitted.

10             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We already reserve a number for the extract of the

12     Law on Internal Affairs.

13             Madam Registrar, the number reserved for that purpose would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7215.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and is reserved for the purpose I just

16     mentioned.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Now I'd like to please show you P3855.  We see up on the screen

20     this document is dated the 15th of May, 1992.  Now, if we could just

21     please turn to page -- the last page, in fact, of both.  Page 2 in the

22     B/C/S; page 4 in the English, just to look at the signatory.  You can see

23     it's from Mico Stanisic, signed and stamped.  Yes?

24        A.   Is this a question for me?

25        Q.   Yes, it's a question.  It's the signatory of Mico Stanisic; yes?

Page 33183

 1        A.   The minister's name is typed up.  I believe that it is also his

 2     signature, but it was a long time ago so I really can't remember what his

 3     signature really looks like.

 4        Q.   Can we go to the English translation page 3 and the B/C/S page 2,

 5     and I'd ask you to look at point 7, paragraph 3, when it comes up.  I'll

 6     read it out while -- it says here:

 7             "While participating in combat operations, the units of the

 8     ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;

 9     however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain

10     ministry officials."

11             Now before I ask you a question, I'm going to ask you to look at

12     another document.

13             MS. PACK:  Can we look, please, at 65 ter 32273.  I'd ask for

14     page 80.

15        Q.   Now, this is an English transcript of an interview that was

16     conducted with you by the Office of the Prosecutor here in May 2004, and

17     I'm going to read out very slowly so that you can have it translated what

18     you said.

19             So from page -- sorry, from line 12, MK, that's you, I'm reading

20     from there, line 1:

21             "During our combat activities, we would be resubordinated to the

22     area brigade of the VRS -- sorry, the brigade of the VRS of that area and

23     we would execute our combat activities and we would receive our orders

24     from the VRS commander.  That was the principle of our work in combat

25     activities?

Page 33184

 1             "Q.  Who did you report to in Visegrad?"

 2             Answer, you:

 3             "In Visegrad, we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic, but

 4     we received our orders for combat activities from the commander of the

 5     Visegrad brigade.

 6             "Q.  Who was he?

 7             "A.  At the time it was ... Vinko Pandurevic was his name."

 8             Now this -- you can tell the me whether you remember this.  This

 9     is you talking about your own experience in 1992 when you were commander

10     of the special unit; is that right.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   It's accurate what you state here?

13        A.   Yes, absolutely correct.  Resubordinated to the Visegrad Brigade

14     as the commander of special unit on behalf of the Ministry of Interior

15     for -- for combat.  This is how it was.  We honoured a legitimate and

16     lawful order of the minister of the interior, as you saw in the previous

17     document.  That's how the document is worded, that things should be

18     done -- done legally.  I honoured that in the field, and you can see it

19     in the second document, and I also reported to the minister when I

20     returned back to the base.

21        Q.   I didn't ask you about that.  Thank you.  If you could just keep

22     your answer to the question.

23             So during combat activities you were resubordinated to the

24     relevant VRS unit, you received orders from the VRS commander, you

25     submitted reports to the minister?

Page 33185

 1        A.   Yes.  But I sent my reports to the minister only when I returned

 2     from combat.

 3        Q.   You remained in command of your own unit; right?

 4        A.   I commanded my own units, the special police.  And my commander

 5     was the brigade commander of the VRS.  I received my orders from him

 6     when I was engaged in combat.

 7        Q.   If we can go back, please, to P03855 --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, could I ask one

 9     clarification.

10             You said you reported to the minister only after you returned

11     from combat.  The document said "in Visegrad, we submitted the reports to

12     the minister."

13             Do we have to understand that you did that when you were in

14     Visegrad and that you then had returned from combat; or how do we have to

15     understand the two answers in context?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is the same.  I reported

17     to the minister only when I returned.  When combat was over.  During that

18     combat, I was resubordinated to the VRS brigade.  I had daily activities.

19     I did not have the time to report to the minister.  I was engaged in

20     combat.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I then have to understand that when you were in

22     Visegrad that you had returned from combat or ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the engagement in Visegrad, I

24     reported to my minister, not while I was in Visegrad.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 33186

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   So what you're saying now is that what you said to the OTP in

 4     2004, in Visegrad we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic, that's

 5     not accurate?

 6        A.   I don't understand.  When was I supposed to have said it?  I

 7     don't understand your question.

 8        Q.   I've just read out to you what you said in 2004.  It doesn't

 9     matter when you said it.  You said this:

10             "In Visegrad, we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic but

11     we received our orders for combat activities from the commander of the

12     Visegrad brigade."

13             Now is that not accurate?

14        A.   It is accurate, and I remember that I was subordinated to the

15     local military commander of the VRS.  I received my orders from him.  I

16     reported to the minister on return.  I believe that this is what I said.

17     It's a very general statement, but it covers the way I behaved.  That's

18     what I always did, and there are no unknowns in that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to get matters straight.

20             When you said in the interview, "In Visegrad, we submitted

21     reports to the minister," that suggests that that activity - that is,

22     submitting the report - happened when you were in Visegrad.

23             Now today you told us that you submitted these reports only after

24     you had returned from combat.  So after you had returned from Visegrad.

25     So it's not exactly the same.

Page 33187

 1             That's what Ms. Pack is drawing your attention to, and she now

 2     puts to you that today you are slightly giving a different answer to the

 3     question; that is, that you did not do it when you were in Visegrad but

 4     you did do it when you had returned from combat and therefore had

 5     returned from Visegrad.  Is that how it is?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to understand my answer.

 7     I did not send daily reports to the minister from Visegrad.  I only

 8     reported to him in my capacity as the commander of a special police unit

 9     when I came back home, when I returned from combat, that is my answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So a simple yes would have done.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   We'll go back, please.  We're looking at it on the screen.  It's

14     P03855 [Realtime transcript read in error "8355"] again.  And please, can

15     we just go to English page 3, B/C/S page 2.  It's point 7, paragraph 3,

16     the one we were looking at before, beginning:

17             "While participating in combat operations, the units of the

18     ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;

19     however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain

20     ministry officials."

21             That's what you were describing, is it, earlier -- in your

22     earlier interview when you were saying you received orders from the VRS

23     commander, Pandurevic, in Visegrad; yes?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it 3855 or 8355.

Page 33188

 1             MS. PACK:  It's 3855.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then you misspoke.

 3             MS. PACK:  Forgive me.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

 5             MS. PACK:  I apologies, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Same page, point 9.  We can just look at it and it describes:

 7             "In order to command and control the forces of the ministry, a

 8     staff shall be established comprising: Minister of the interior as the

 9     commander..."

10             And then over in the English, same page in the B/C/S:

11             "... under-secretary for public security - deputy commander ..."

12             And then a few down:  "Commander of the police detachment,"

13     that's you, "member."

14             So you were a member of the police forces' staff in 1992; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes, my answer is affirmative.

17        Q.   Now we'll go to Srebrenica.  In July 1995, you told us you were

18     chief of the public security department and assistant minister of the MUP

19     and also a member of the MUP staff in Pale, the police forces Command

20     Staff; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, I was appointed as a member of the staff of police forces at

22     Pale, according to a dispatch by the minister.  Yes, I was a member of

23     that staff.

24        Q.   Now you signed your witness statement in the Karadzic case on the

25     23rd of June, 2013, then you testified in the Karadzic case on the 27th

Page 33189

 1     of June and the 2nd July 2013.  I'm going to ask you to you look at your

 2     statement, paragraph 40.

 3             MS. PACK:  And for Your Honours, it's D935.

 4             And in the English, as it's coming up, paragraph 40 is at page

 5     13.  B/C/S page 14.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   I'll just to remind you what you say:  "I also have absolutely no

 7     knowledge of any plan to expel civilians forcibly from Serbia and I am

 8     not aware that there was plan to capture and liquidate members of the

 9     28th Muslim Division."

10             Do you still maintain that?

11        A.   Absolutely, yes.

12        Q.   And to clarify, you said you had no knowledge in July 1995 and

13     you have no knowledge now, present tense, about any plan to forcibly

14     expel the Muslim civilians of Srebrenica and execute the men?

15        A.   Yes.  Nobody ever showed me a plan for forceable actions or

16     executions of prisoners in Srebrenica.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you said "no one showed me a plan" and the

18     question was about whether you had any knowledge of a plan.  Now it is

19     possible that you have knowledge of a plan without ever being shown a

20     document about it.

21             Could you please keep that well in mind that the question was

22     about whether you had knowledge of a plan, not on whether you were shown

23     a plan.

24             So could I seek again your answer whether you had any knowledge

25     of a plan as explained by Ms. Pack?

Page 33190

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 3             MS. PACK:

 4        Q.   Okay.  Leaving aside the plan, you are aware now, present tense,

 5     that Muslim civilians were forcibly removed from Srebrenica and thousands

 6     of Muslim men executed?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Object, as it's a compound question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please rephrase the question.

 9             MS. PACK:  Of course.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you also keep in mind that this statement,

11     of course, reflects what the witness knew at the time he gave the

12     statement, and that it looks as if you're now asking him also about his

13     knowledge at this very day, which may be different from what he knew in

14     2013.  I do not know.  But we should clearly distinguish that.

15             Could you please put the rephrased question to the witness.

16             MS. PACK:

17        Q.   Today, as we sit here in the courtroom, you are aware that Muslim

18     civilians were forcibly removed from Srebrenica; yes or no?

19        A.   In 2013, I provided a statement about what I knew then and I can

20     only confirm that today.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that is not the question.  And if you have

22     carefully listened, you would know that I already clearly made that

23     distinction and that's the reason why Ms. Pack asked you about your

24     knowledge today.  Are you aware today that Muslim civilians were forcibly

25     removed from Srebrenica?  And I take it that the reference would be to

Page 33191

 1     July 1995.

 2             MS. PACK:  Thank you, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So with that provision, are you today aware of

 4     that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this very day, I don't know the

 6     whole truth about that.  I was not in Srebrenica.  I did not have a role

 7     to play there at all.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, sometimes I know things or at least have

 9     gained knowledge about things I did not personally observe.  Again, it's

10     not the question whether you know everything of it.  The question simply

11     is:  Are you aware of civilians being forcibly removed from Srebrenica in

12     July 1995?  Awareness as of today.  Could you please answer that

13     question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today I don't know that civilians

15     were treated in that way.  Today I know that people were taken prisoner.

16     Muslim soldiers were.  That I know today.  What you asked me about

17     civilians, I don't know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MS. PACK:

20        Q.   Second half of the compound question.  Today, as you sit here in

21     the courtroom, you were aware in July 1995 thousands of Muslim men were

22     executed; yes or no?  Thousands of Muslim men of Srebrenica, to be

23     absolutely clear.

24        A.   I don't know today either.

25             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, is now a convenient time for the break?

Page 33192

 1     I've lost my times.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, we are already five

 3     minutes past the time we would usually take a break.

 4             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.  The

 5     witness may follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

10             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, before the witness comes in, I can just

11     update you as to the status of the extracts from the law that --

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You can't do that before the witness comes in

14     because the witness is in already.  But we'll hear from you later.

15             Please proceed, Ms. Pack.

16             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   I'd like to remind you of your testimony in the Karadzic case.

18             MS. PACK:  Could we have 65 ter 32251 in e-court.  We need

19     page 29.

20        Q.   Now this is in English, but I'm going to read it out to you.

21     It's your statement.  It's the transcript of your oral testimony.

22             You were asked, and I'll read it slowly, from line 4:

23             "Q.  Are you testifying that you never received information that

24     prisoner had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?"

25             You answered:

Page 33193

 1             "I'm not sure now whether there is some dispatch, it really has

 2     been a long time, that says that prisoners had been taken.  In

 3     particular, I do not have a report and no one ever reported to me about

 4     any executions in certain locations.  I do not have a single report like

 5     that as head of the RJB.

 6             "Q.  Yeah, again that wasn't the question.  The question was:

 7     You say you don't remember.  Are you telling us that you don't remember

 8     whether you knew in July 1995, as head of the RJB, that the Serb forces

 9     had taken -- VRS and MUP had taken -- and/or MUP had taken large numbers

10     of prisoner -- any prisoners?

11             "A.  No.

12             "Q.  Don't [overlapping speakers] ...

13             "A.  Categorically I had never been reported to about that.  I

14     cannot confirm that."

15             And that was your truthful testimony, was it, in the Karadzic

16     case?

17        A.   If I may, I would like to have the Serbian translation of this

18     transcript with all due respect to you, Madam Prosecutor.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, there's no Serbian version of this.

20     Therefore, it's read to you slowly in English so that it could be

21     interpreted for you, and it's a verbatim record of the -- your

22     examination in the Karadzic case.

23             If you would wish the relevant portion to be read to you again,

24     Ms. Pack certainly will do.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like -- the

Page 33194

 1     transcript is very long, isn't it, and my focus is not that great at this

 2     moment for such a long passage, especially as I hear it in English.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you hear it in your own language if you listen

 4     to the translation.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May it be repeated?  Okay.  May it

 6     be repeated?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Would you please read it again, Ms. Pack.

 9             MS. PACK:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slower, of course.

11             MS. PACK:

12             "Q.  Are you testifying that you never received information that

13     prisoner had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?

14             "A.  I'm not sure now whether there is some dispatch, it really

15     has been a long time, that says that prisoners had been taken.  In

16     particular, I do not have a report and no one ever reported to me about

17     any executions in certain locations.  I do not have a single report like

18     that as head of the RJB.

19             "Q.  Yeah, again, that wasn't the question.  The question was:

20     You say you don't remember.  Are you telling us that you don't remember

21     whether you knew in July 1995, as head of the RJB, that the Serb forces

22     had taken -- VRS and MUP had taken -- and/or MUP had taken large numbers

23     of prisoners?  Any prisoners?

24             "A.  No.

25             "Q.  Don't [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 33195

 1             "A.  Categorically I had never been reported to about that.  I

 2     cannot confirm that."

 3             Now, is that your truthful testimony in the Karadzic case.

 4        A.   Yes, I provide the same answer today as I did in that case.

 5        Q.   You met with Radovan Karadzic in Pale on the 10th and 11th July,

 6     this is your statement, on the 10th of July, along with Dragan Kijac,

 7     head of the DB, for 20 minutes; and on the 11th of July, 1995, for 15

 8     minutes by yourself.  That's paragraph 60 if you want to look at it.

 9     That's your evidence; yes?

10        A.   [In English] Okay.

11        Q.   You've been shown Karadzic's diary previously, his agenda.  And

12     you would accept that the meeting on the 11th of July was at around

13     10.30 p.m. to 10.45 p.m.; yes?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was a question to you, Witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by that, and I confirm the

16     same answer that I provided in paragraph 60, that I was -- but that there

17     was this discussion of the offensive in Sarajevo; but as regards

18     Srebrenica, no, I stand by my former answer.

19             MS. PACK:

20        Q.   Right.  So your honest evidence today is that on the 10th and

21     11th of July, 1995, when you met with Radovan Karadzic in Pale, you

22     didn't discuss Srebrenica at all?

23        A.   That's right, I did not discuss Srebrenica.  I didn't know

24     anything that was going on, either.  I talked about Sarajevo, where I was

25     on the staff.

Page 33196

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 2     microphones pleased be switched off.  Thank you.

 3             MS. PACK:

 4        Q.   You didn't know anything.

 5             MS. PACK:  Can we have a look, please, at D00129.

 6        Q.   Now, you were shown this document before when you were

 7     cross-examined in the Karadzic case.  It's dated the 10th of July, 1995.

 8     And we can see in the B/C/S - and it's English, page 2 - that's it's from

 9     Kovac.  Yes?

10        A.   Yes.  That is what is written here, Staff Commander,

11     Tomislav Kovac.

12        Q.   Police forces staff commander, deputy minister of the interior in

13     July 1995; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   On 10th of July, and you can read this, based on the order of the

16     supreme commander of Republika Srpska armed forces, he orders,

17     paragraph 1:

18             "Single out part of the RS MUP forces participating in combat

19     operations on the Sarajevo front and send them as an independent unit to

20     the Srebrenica sector in the course of tomorrow, 11 July ..."

21             Paragraph 3:

22             "I hereby appoints Ljubisav Borovcanin, deputy commander of the

23     special police brigade, to the position of MUP unit commander."

24             Para 5 over on page 2 in the English:

25             "On arrival at the destination, the unit commander shall contact

Page 33197

 1     General Krstic of the corps Chief of Staff."

 2             So when you met Karadzic on the 10th of July with Kijac, you knew

 3     about this order, no?

 4        A.   I'm not sure that I knew of this order at the time because the

 5     order was issued to the staff and the staff is the one that prepares the

 6     decision of the staff commander concerning realisation.  I'm just a

 7     member of the staff, and I'm not duty-bound to provide information to

 8     President Karadzic about that.  I adhere to my own role in the staff that

 9     pertained to the Sarajevo-Romanija front.

10        Q.   Okay.  You are concerned with the Sarajevo front.  This is what

11     you discuss with Radovan Karadzic when you meet him on the 10th of July.

12     MUP units participating in combat operations on the Sarajevo front, which

13     you say was your task, and the deputy commander of the special police

14     brigade, Borovcanin, are redeployed from Sarajevo to the Srebrenica area

15     upon the orders of the president and Kovac, and you didn't know about it,

16     you didn't discuss it with the president when you met him on the 10th,

17     11th of July?

18        A.   Absolutely not.

19        Q.   You're aware that members of this unit participated in the murder

20     of over a thousand Muslim prisoners at Kravica warehouse on the

21     13th July, three days later.  You're aware of that?

22        A.   No, I was not aware of that then.

23        Q.   Aware of it now?

24        A.   When I found out - after the war, from the media - then I heard

25     of that incident too that occurred in Kravica and the special police took

Page 33198

 1     part.

 2        Q.   On the 11th of July --

 3        A.   Took part in combat operations.

 4        Q.   On the 11th of July, you met the president the day that

 5     Srebrenica fell, the day that Borovcanin was supposed to report to Krstic

 6     in the Srebrenica area, you didn't discuss these significant events?

 7        A.   No.  I did not discuss that because I didn't know about that.  I

 8     dealt with the Sarajevo front and that offensive there.

 9             MS. PACK:  Can we have, please, 65 ter 04007.

10        Q.   On the 11th of July, you can see here, there's an order issued by

11     Karadzic.

12             MS. PACK:  We have to go ...

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MS. PACK:  I notice that the second page isn't up there in the

15     B/C/S.  Let me just check, if I may, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You may check.

17             MS. PACK:  It is there.  Great.

18        Q.   Okay.  You can see that that's signed by Karadzic, the order, the

19     11th of July; correct?  Correct?

20        A.   In principle I can confirm that this is a dispatch from the

21     president who is issuing an order to the minister of the interior.  That

22     I can confirm because that is seen here.

23        Q.   Okay.  We can go back to the first page in the B/C/S.  You can

24     see there at paragraph 1 it's addressed to the minister.  Paragraph 1, it

25     says:

Page 33199

 1             "I hereby order the formation of a public security station for

 2     Serb Srebrenica after the Republika Srpska control has been established

 3     in the municipality of Serb Srebrenica."

 4             So this is an order setting up a Serbian police station the day

 5     before the civilian population, the Muslim civilian population, are

 6     removed; yes?

 7        A.   I cannot take part in your assertion, but I can say that the

 8     Ministry of the Interior carried out the minister's order, obviously,

 9     after the fall of Srebrenica that authority be established, especially

10     police authority.  The rest I cannot comment upon, especially what you

11     are putting to me as a question.  I don't know where prisoners of war

12     are, where prisoners are.  I cannot comment upon the president's order,

13     which is legitimate.  There is nothing more I can say.  This is the only

14     comment that I can make as a witness.

15        Q.   Paragraph 5, he says:

16             "Establish close co-operation with the Miroslav Deronjic, the

17     civilian commissioner for the municipality of Serb Srebrenica, as well as

18     with other bodies and organisations in this area."

19             Paragraph 5, B/C/S page 2.  You see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, you, head of the RJB, you didn't discuss this order with the

22     president when you met him late at night on the 11th of July, 1995, in

23     Pale?

24        A.   My answer is no.  This was a dispatch sent to the minister of the

25     interior, not me.

Page 33200

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question.  You didn't

 2     discuss it.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. PACK:  I'd ask to have that admitted into evidence,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 04007 receives number P7216.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P7216 is admitted.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Pack, I assume that will you move to another

10     document or another topic.  I have two clarifications to make.

11             MS. PACK:  I was going to move on, yes, so I'll wait.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Karisik, a moment ago, you were asked about

13     the involvement of a -- of the special police in an event in Kravica.

14     The question was:

15             "You are aware that members of this unit participated in the

16     murder of over a thousand Muslim prisoners at Kravica warehouse on the

17     13th of July?"

18             And then you said:

19             "I was not aware of that."

20             Then the question again was:

21             "Are you aware of it now?"

22             And then you said:

23             "When I found out - after the war, from the media - then I heard

24     of that incident too that occurred in Kravica and the special police took

25     part."

Page 33201

 1             And then you added:

 2             "Took part in combat operations."

 3             Do you consider this event in Kravica warehouse as a combat

 4     operation.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No comment.  I only told you what I

 6     knew about the police.  They found themselves in a situation where an

 7     incident occurred and subsequently a crime.  I don't know about the

 8     situation as it was in the field.  Cele, who was the commander of the

 9     operation, would know that.  I cannot comment upon that because I --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not my question.  You commented on that.

11     You said "they took part in combat operations," with respect to Kravica

12     warehouse.  I wanted to know if you consider that to be a combat

13     operation, what occurred in the Kravica warehouse.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have put a wrong connotation to

15     me.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, no, sorry --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Kravica warehouse

18     was an incident --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop, stop.  I quoted literally from the

20     transcript what you said a minute ago, and I would like to know from you

21     why you said "took part in combat operations" with respect to a Kravica

22     warehouse event.  I would like to understand that.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that the incident in

24     Kravica was part of combat operations.  When I say "combat operations or

25     activities," that means that the unit was under the commander of

Page 33202

 1     Ljubisa Borovcanin and resubordinated to the command of the VRS and that

 2     it participated in combat operations over there.  The incident itself, in

 3     Kravica, that is, of which I learned after the war, I cannot provide any

 4     comments about it today save to say that I learned about that.  I can't

 5     share any details with you because I wasn't there.  Combat operations is

 6     a very general sweeping term, and the act has nothing to do with the

 7     term.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I move to another --

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, could you please keep your earphones on

11     for a second.  No?  Earphones on.

12             You communicate with the witness.  You're not allowed to do that.

13     You've done it twice.  If it -- no, you earlier communicated with the

14     witness.  If you do -- please.  One second please, Mr. Mladic.  If it

15     happens again, you'll be removed from the courtroom.

16             I do understand that you now want to consult with Mr. Stojanovic.

17     You are allowed to do that.  But -- well, I do understand that you want

18     to consult with Mr. Ivetic as well.  That's fine.  If you do it at any

19     audible volume, there'll be only one consequence, that you'll be removed

20     from the courtroom.  So keep your volume down so that everything is

21     inaudible.  You have an opportunity to consult with Mr. Ivetic and/or

22     Mr. Stojanovic.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I still can hear the witness [sic].

25             Mr. Ivetic, I still can hear the accused.  He should not speak at

Page 33203

 1     an audible level.

 2             And since you're now back, I'll now address the witness.

 3             Mr. Karisik, would you refrain from seeking eye contact with the

 4     accused when you are examined.  There is communication which is not only

 5     coming from the accused but from you as well.  You should refrain from

 6     that.  You're undermining the value of your own testimony if you continue

 7     to do that.

 8             Is that clear?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no

10     communication with the accused.  I simply cannot look in one direction

11     all the time, so at times I look at the Prosecutor; at times I will look

12     at the Defence, Mr. Ivetic, that is.  This has been very long and it's

13     very hard to keep focus.  I have no communication with the accused.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we establish that you did.  There was eye

15     communication.  But apart from that, you may look at whomever you want

16     but not seek eye contact with the Defence and/or the accused.

17             Please proceed.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have my second topic I would like to get a

19     clarification from you.

20             Ms. Pack, at the beginning of this session, asked you about your

21     knowledge about prisoners taken in Srebrenica, and she put to you what

22     you testified in the Karadzic case.

23             I would like to clarify.  As you sit here today, have you any

24     knowledge about prisoners taken in Srebrenica mid-July 1995?

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 33204

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge.  I've never

 2     been particularly interested in the topic.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not a question if you were interested.  I

 4     would like to know if you know anything about prisoners taken in

 5     Srebrenica these days in mid-July 1995, because you denied knowledge in

 6     the Karadzic case and I would like to know if you today know about that.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.  What I knew then

 8     I know now.  Nothing else.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So I put to you what you said earlier today

10     before the last break.

11             You were asked about forceable removal of civilians from

12     Srebrenica and other events, and then you said:

13             "Today I know that people were taken prisoners, Muslim soldiers

14     were.  That I know today."

15             What is true?  What you said before the break or what you just

16     said now?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I explain?  I know nothing

18     about civilians being taken prisoner.  That was the question that I -- I

19     was asked.  And as for the troops which were taken prisoners, I confirm

20     that there were prisoners taken, but I know nothing about that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is not true that I put a question in relation

22     to civilians.  I asked you a minute ago:

23             "As you sit here today, have you any knowledge about prisoners

24     taken in Srebrenica mid-July 1995?"

25             And you said:

Page 33205

 1             "I have no knowledge."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I stand by what I said,

 3     officially, no.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So this is a clear contradiction.  Earlier today

 5     you said you have information about that, you know about it.  Now you say

 6     you don't know anything about it.  What is true?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know, that I don't

 8     have any information.  This is the truth.  I may have been misunderstood.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's clearly on the record.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you know today, isn't it?  You're nodding

11     yes.  Is that to be understood as a "yes"?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what was the question?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you know today about anyone, whomever,

14     Muslim, being taken prisoner in July 1995 in Srebrenica.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I never analysed that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you whether you analysed it.  I didn't

17     ask you whether it was reported to you.  I'm asking whether today you

18     know or you are aware that that took place, as you told us earlier today.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, and that's my final answer.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So your earlier answer was not correct.

21     That's hereby on the record.

22             Ms. Pack, you may proceed -- well, you have one or two minutes

23     left.  I don't know whether you would like to.

24             MS. PACK:  Actually, it would be better, I think, if we could

25     start tomorrow.  That would be on the next topic.

Page 33206

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll adjourn for the day.

 4             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and I want to instruct you

 5     that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether that

 6     is testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be

 7     given tomorrow, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

 8             Is my instruction clear to you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, there's the exhibit matter if I can just

13     deal with it in 30 seconds --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you can do that in ten seconds, please do.

15             MS. PACK:  Yes.  Ten seconds.  We've uploaded the excerpts from

16     65 ter 03216 into e-court under 65 ter 03216a, so exhibit number P07215,

17     which was reserved, can now be admitted.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now the number of pages you've uploaded is

19     approximately?

20             MS. PACK:  Approximately five.  I'm instructed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections, Mr. Ivetic?

22             MR. IVETIC:  None at this time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P7215 reserved for now uploaded 65 ter 03216a is

24     admitted into evidence.

25             We adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 17th

Page 33207

 1     of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of March,

 4                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.