1 Tuesday, 17 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus
10 Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a
13 preliminary matter.
14 Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. And
16 good morning to everybody in the court.
17 I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that we wanted to have a
18 translation replaced. It is Blagojevic, Mladen's statement, ID922, and
19 the translation which is valid at the moment is 1D180588. This should be
20 replaced by a new translation. The number is 1D191407 [as interpreted].
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number is ...
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, just -- could you please check on
24 the transcript whether we have the right number: 1D19407?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat, Your Honours.
1 Mladen Blagojevic's statement is D922. The current translation is
2 1D180588 [as interpreted]. This should be replaced by the following
3 number: 1D191407 [as interpreted].
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, which seems to --
5 MS. PACK: Your Honour, can the Prosecution just check it and
6 revert. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to right now, but one of my
7 colleagues --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the usual practice is that better
9 translations, if they come from a good source, are admitted and may
10 replace the previous one, and then within 48 hours the other party has an
11 opportunity to revisit that matter.
12 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I state that both numbers are not correctly
14 recorded. The 1D number. They are one digit in addition to the usual
16 Please repeat, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated].
18 [Interpretation] Mladen Blagojevic's statement is D922. The
19 current translation is doc ID 180 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel repeat, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D180588.
23 MR. IVETIC: The doc ID numbers are always eight digits, same as
24 ERN numbers.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be the correct number. And then it
2 would be replaced by?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D191408 -- 07.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I repeat that last number: 1D191407.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The -- Mr. Registrar is instructed to replace the
7 current translation by the newly uploaded one. And the Prosecution has
8 an opportunity to revisit the matter within the next 48 hours.
9 Then, having dealt with that, the witness can be escorted in the
10 courtroom. And, meanwhile, I use the time to briefly address the -- a
11 matter related to Witness Milan Tutoric.
12 On the 3rd of March of this year, the Defence filed a motion to
13 admit the evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric pursuant to Rule 92 ter and
14 Rule 94 bis of the Rules. The Chamber recalls that on the 3rd of
15 December last year, the Prosecution objected to the admission of
16 Milan Tutoric's evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter as requested by the
17 Defence in its 19th November motion on the ground, inter alia, that it
18 contained inadmissible evidence and expert opinion from a witness
19 presented as a witness of fact.
20 On the 18th of December, the Chamber invited the Defence to file
21 an additional submission addressing whether the witness would be more
22 appropriately presented as an expert witness. You can find this at
23 transcript page 30116. The Defence did not file or present any
24 submission at the deadline set by the Chamber.
25 On the 27th of January, 2015, the Chamber denied, without
1 prejudice, the Defence motion to admit the evidence of Milan Tutoric
2 pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: And this can be found at transcript pages 30674
5 through 30675.
6 The Chamber is now seized of the 3rd of March motion to admit the
7 evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric. The Chamber understands that the
8 Defence seeks the admission of his evidence pursuant to two rules, two
9 different rules. Unless the Defence wishes to raise further arguments in
10 connection with this matter, the Chamber considers that the Defence is
11 presenting Milan Tutoric as a Rule 94 bis witness and not as a
12 Rule 92 ter witness.
13 Good morning, Mr. Karisik.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Our apologies for continuing with an administrative
16 matter when you entered the courtroom.
17 Mr. Karisik, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
18 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony,
19 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
20 and I further urge you to focus your answer very much on the questions
21 that are put to you.
22 Ms. Pack will now continue her cross-examination.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Can we have, please, 65 ter 04050.
1 WITNESS: MILENKO KARISIK [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examination by Ms. Pack: [Continued]
4 Q. Okay. You can see this on the screen now. It's dated the 12th
5 of July from Dragomir Vasic from the Zvornik CJB. It's to the Bijeljina
6 police forces staff and to the public security department. The public
7 security department, that's you; yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Read it to yourself, the report, please.
10 You done? Right. So it's about the reporting on the movement of
11 the column of men, isn't it, the first couple of paragraphs, the second
12 and third paragraphs; yes?
13 A. I've read the dispatch. I know what it is about. In principle,
14 that is.
15 Q. The last paragraph, please, last sentence, I'll read it out: "We
16 obtained all the above information from the four men we captured in
17 Konjevic Polje an hour ago (at about 1630 hours)."
18 So you knew the MUP were talking to Muslim prisoners from
19 Srebrenica on the 12th of July; right?
20 A. I would not have any comment on the dispatch, including this
21 part, because this is a report to the Bijeljina sector which does not
22 imply my authority. I was not supposed to react to it. All of these
23 things were happening on the ground and that's where they were dealt
25 Q. Just pausing there --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you again, Witness. The question was whether
2 you had knowledge of this happening, not whether you were in a position
3 where you had to respond or react. That's all not the question.
4 The question is: Did you know that the MUP were talking to
5 Muslim prisoners in -- from Srebrenica on the 12th of July. That's the
7 Could you please answer that question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time I didn't know that. At
9 that time I did not read this dispatch. I was in Pale.
10 MS. PACK:
11 Q. You've told us that this report is addressed to you. You're a
12 professional, outstanding professional police ... policeman, and you
13 don't read a report addressed to you from the Zvornik CJB on the
14 12th July. Is that right? You just didn't read it.
15 A. Not at the time. I had other commitments. I was not duty-bound
16 to read all the dispatches which were not sent to me personally but to
17 the entire department. This is a regular report, and as I can see, it's
18 about people who were taken prisoner.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you didn't read this report
20 because it wasn't addressed to you personally; is that right? Do I
21 understand that correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. PACK: I'd tender this, please, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7217, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 MS. PACK: Can we have, please, P01511.
3 Q. Right. You can look at the top, see who it is addressed to. And
4 you will be relieved to see that this report from Kijac dated the
5 13 July 1995 is addressed to you, head, RS MUP Bijeljina, public security
6 department, personally; right? That's you, personally.
7 A. Yes, to me personally. This is what I read on the dispatch.
8 Q. You would have read it because it was addressed to you
9 personally; right?
10 A. I can't remember whether I did read it personally. I have to
11 explain why I did not read some of the dispatches, although they --
12 because they covered some things that I was not involved in. If you will
13 allow me.
14 Q. Let me just read from the first paragraph of this dispatch. It's
15 addressed to the RS deputy minister of the interior personally. That's
16 Kovac; right?
17 A. Yes. It says Kovac.
18 Q. First paragraph.
19 A. No, it doesn't say Kovac.
20 Q. The RS minister of the interior personally is Kovac; correct?
21 A. Yes, at the time.
22 Q. Thank you. First paragraph: "During the night of the 12th to
23 the 13th July 1995, members of the VRS and MUP managed to capture a large
24 number of Muslim soldiers (over 300) in ambushes set up in the general
25 Konjevic Polje area."
1 I'm going to go down to about two-thirds of the way down this
2 paragraph and pick it up where it starts: "Earlier" -- it talks about
3 the column and then it goes: "Earlier information regarding their
4 intentions and the axes of movement towards Kladanj and Tuzla (Buljim,
5 Pobudje, Konjevic Polje, Kaldrmica, Cerska, Snagovo, Crni Vrh) has been
6 confirmed many times in interviews with prisoners."
7 So it's not true, is it, Mr. Karisik, what you said yesterday
8 that you didn't know about Muslim prisoners from Srebrenica; right?
9 A. Whatever I've said so far is the truth. This is a dispatch sent
10 to the head of department as a regular reporting. In this case, I was
11 not supposed to act upon this dispatch. Some other people were supposed
12 to act upon it. In -- in my case, it was nothing but a regular report on
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I -- no one asked you whether you had
15 to act on it. The question is whether you knew about it. Now, and if
16 you say, I don't have to act upon it, then at least you should know what
17 it is in it in order to know whether you should or should not act on it.
18 Isn't it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not read a large number of
20 dispatches because I was not at the headquarters. I was in Pale. I told
21 you why I did not read them. I did not read them because there was
22 nothing in them that I should have followed up on. I dealt with entirely
23 different things at the time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But how would you know that there's nothing in it on
25 which you would have to react if you are not acquainted with the content?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this specific case when it comes
2 to this specific this activity and combat, I did not have any authority
3 or competencies there. I was dedicated to other tasks, and those tasks
4 pertained to the Pale staff.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to my question. But I invite
6 Ms. Pack to move on.
7 Please proceed, Ms. Pack.
8 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. You see, Mr. Karisik, I'm a little confused because in your
10 statement at paragraph 36 you say -- and I'll read it. You can read it
11 yourself. It's in e-court in the English at page 12. Just if you can
12 look at the hard copy, you say: "I spent most of July 1995 at the RJB
13 headquarters in Bijeljina. I was also a member of the MUP staff in
15 So is it right, then, that you were in Bijeljina but not in
16 Bijeljina for purposes of picking up written reports about Srebrenica?
17 Is that about right?
18 A. You did not understand me well. Can I clarify?
19 The seat of the public security sector was in Bijeljina. From
20 the moment the staff was set up in Pale, I spent most of the time first
21 in Pale as a staff member, but occasionally I did go to Bijeljina.
22 On one occasion, I also went to the IKM of the Zvornik Brigade on
23 an order. In other words, I was in Pale, and I was also in Bijeljina.
24 The situation was dramatic, especially in the Sarajevo area. I was both
25 in Pale and in Bijeljina. I can't tell you when I was in any of those
2 Q. Let me understand another thing. You didn't read this report,
3 this particular report, because you weren't acting on anything concerning
4 Srebrenica. That just wasn't something you were interested in. Is that
6 A. That's right. I was not interested. I was only interested in
7 the task I was given by the other staff. My role had nothing to do with
8 Srebrenica. These dispatches are nothing but reports on developments.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you one thing.
10 You earlier said -- you referred to the moment that the staff was
11 set up in Pale. Could you tell us when exactly that was? What date.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 20 years, I can't give you
13 the exact date when the Pale staff was set up. But I would just like to
14 say that it was sometime in June or the end of June.
15 MS. PACK:
16 Q. That's 1995; right? The year. Just to clarify for
17 Their Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had no --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1995, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm just reading the ...
21 You said: "From the moment the staff was set up in Pale, I spent
22 most of the time first in Pale as a staff member, but occasionally I did
23 go to Bijeljina."
24 Now your statement reads: "I spent most of July at the RJB
25 headquarters in Bijeljina."
1 And you just told me that that headquarters was in Pale, was set
2 up in June, and that from then on, you spent most of your time in Pale.
3 Now, I've some difficulties in understanding how in July you can
4 spend most of your time in Bijeljina and spent most of your time in Pale.
5 That's slightly unclear to me.
6 Any explanation for what seems to be a contradiction?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I was in Pale in the second
8 half of June. I spent more time in Pale from then on, but during the
9 Sarajevo offensive, I spent more time at the Pale staff in the Sarajevo
11 In the month of July, which is a long month, I spent more time in
12 the Bijeljina sector headquarters, especially in the second half of July.
13 I -- I'm very glad if this is more clear. It says in my statement that I
14 spent more time in the Bijeljina sector in July, yes, because July is a
15 long month. And as for the Pale staff, I was there --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, so earlier you -- what apparently you
17 intended to tell us that you spent -- once the Pale headquarters was set
18 up, you spent most of your time in Pale but only in June and not for
19 July. That is then ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the first half of the month of
21 July as well. But it did happen every now and then that I went to the
22 sector for personal and family reasons. Spending time in a different
23 territory was difficult in terms of logistics.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pack.
25 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Right. You didn't read reports about Srebrenica. You didn't act
2 on anything concerning Srebrenica.
3 MS. PACK: Let's look, please, at 65 ter 32266.
4 Q. You can see it's to the police forces Command Staff, Pale. So
5 that includes you; right? I'm just asking about the addressee.
6 A. I'm just part of the police staff in Pale. One of the members of
7 the staff. Yes. And this is sent to the staff.
8 Q. 13 July 1995 it's dated. You can see that. And it's from -- and
9 you just need to look at the top for this. It's from the State Security
10 Department, 3rd Administration; right?
11 A. Yes. The heading of this document says: RDB, 3rd
12 Administration, Sarajevo.
13 Q. Okay. Let's look, please -- I am not going to read it all out.
14 Let's look at the first paragraph. Now it's not about prisoners, this
16 So just take your time and look at that. And you can confirm to
17 me that that's talking about the column of Muslim men. Just the first
20 A. I didn't manage to read it. I've read half of it. This is a
21 report about the movement of Muslims in that area, but ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, take your time to read it.
23 And, Ms. Pack, show the patience which, in all fairness, should
24 be given.
25 MS. PACK: Of course, Your Honour.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Once I've read it, I shall
2 communicate that. It's rather hard for me to read from here.
3 Yes, I've read the first part of the dispatch.
4 MS. PACK:
5 Q. Thank you. It's about the column of Muslim men; right?
6 A. Yes, it is about several columns, as far as I could read here.
7 But these are Muslims who are breaking through towards Tuzla, as far as I
8 can see.
9 Q. Let's look at the last paragraph, please, on that page. And it's
10 page 2 of the English. I'll read it out. Just pay attention:
11 "The latest information obtained from the RDB shows that a Muslim
12 group led by Zulfo Tursunovic this evening arrived in the general sector
13 of Snagovo and established radio communication with members of the
14 so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who are in the sector of
15 Kalesija; hence, it is expected that they engage in joint combat
16 operations ..."
17 And it goes on. And then I'll take it up at the penultimate
18 sentence which is -- we can just go over the page, please, in the B/C/S
19 to page 2. Penultimate sentence of the dispatch, just where it starts:
20 "At the same time the second group of Muslim saboteurs led by
21 Ibrahim Mandzic, aka Mrki, is allegedly in the sector of Gornja Kamenica
22 and moving along the same road along which Tursunovic's group had
24 And it goes on.
25 You received this report, you, Milenko Karisik?
1 A. No, Milenko Karisik did not receive that. It was the staff of
2 the police force in Pale that received that but I am part of the staff.
3 Q. As part of the staff, did you personally receive it, did you read
5 A. I cannot recall. I personally did not receive it for sure. It
6 arrives at the duty service there, and if -- if it's something alarming,
7 then the staff should inform the minister who was the only one who has
8 the power to act. Since these forces that were at Srebrenica were under
9 the command of --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, you are not invited to expand on
11 who should have received it and should have read it. The simple question
12 was, is whether you received it. Your answer was no, which I take it
13 also means that you haven't read it.
14 Next question.
15 MS. PACK: Your Honours, I tender this report, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7218, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
19 MS. PACK: Thank you. Can we have, please, 65 ter 04086.
20 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 13th of July, and it's to
21 Dragomir Vasic. He's the chief of the Zvornik CJB. And it's type-signed
22 from the RJB head, Milenko Karisik; right?
23 A. Yes. The name, Milenko Karisik, is typewritten, but my signature
24 is not there, so it is the services of the sector that sent this, but
25 that would be it. It's from the sector.
1 Q. Well, let's just see, shall we, what it says. I'll read the
2 first paragraph:
3 "According to the information available to the RDB, the State
4 Security Department, a Muslim group led by Zulfo Tursunovic, former
5 commander of one of the Muslim brigades from Srebrenica, is currently in
6 the Snagovo sector ..."
7 It goes on.
8 And then just taking the penultimate sentence:
9 "Another group of Muslim extremists led by Ibrahim Mandzic is
10 reportedly in the Gornja Kamenica sector (in the interspace between ..."
11 and it goes on.
12 And it takes up:"... and advancing along the same route
13 previously used by Tursunovic's group."
14 So you see it repeats the content of the previous document that I
15 showed you from the State Security Department about the movement of these
16 two groups in the column of Muslim men from Srebrenica. Can you see
17 that; right?
18 A. What I see here -- well, yes I see that --
19 Q. Sir, you've answered my question. Thank you. So you,
20 Milenko Karisik, you, the head of the RJB, received reports about
21 Srebrenica and acted on reports about Srebrenica; right?
22 A. I am head of the RJB, and you said that I was head of the RDB, if
23 I heard you correctly. So I am head of the RJB, and from my sector, the
24 dispatch was conveyed to the centre, Vasic, about the information that
25 the RDB had sent to us. So this is a regular thing, and that is
2 MS. PACK: I'd like to tender this in evidence, please,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7219, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
7 MS. PACK: Can we have, please, P2117.
8 Q. Just to clarify, it's a regular thing, is it, that reports go out
9 under your name without you having any knowledge of the contents?
10 Dispatches go out under your name? It's a regular thing, was it, in the
12 A. Yes, that's what I wanted to say. Only a dispatch that I sign is
13 one that is sent from me personally. Dispatches from the sector, well,
14 are sent further on to those who are proper addressees. In this case, it
15 was the RJB centre, Zvornik.
16 Q. It's a teletyped document. They're never signed.
17 A. I think that the original document has to bear the signature of
18 the person who is sending it.
19 Q. Let's look at this document that's up on the screen. It's P2117,
20 dated the 13th July 1995. And it's to the Pale police staff of which you
21 were part; right?
22 Now I would like -- right? Is that correct?
23 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that question? I didn't understand
24 that you were asking me something.
25 Q. This is to the Pale police staff of which you were part. You
1 were part of the Pale police staff, and this is addressed to the Pale
2 police staff. Right?
3 A. Yes, I was a member of the staff in Pale.
4 Q. Okay. Let's look, please, at the penultimate paragraph on the
5 page in the B/C/S, and it goes over -- it's over on page 2 in the English
6 translation. It's the second page on page 2 [sic].
7 You can see this is from Ljubisa Borovcanin; correct?
8 A. Yes, down here, it says: Deputy Commander, Ljubisa Borovcanin,
9 yes. Of the special police brigade, yes.
10 Q. Are you quite sure? Because he hasn't signed it personally.
11 Right? It's on the teleprinter, so it wouldn't be signed. Is that
13 A. Well, I'm not a big expert for communications, but I cannot
14 confirm what these documents that are before me mean, being that they are
15 not bearing signatures of persons who are sending them. I think that
16 each and every document that is sent has to bear the signature of the
17 person who is sending it. But I accept that this is a document that did
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, in all fairness to the witness, if you ask
20 him, Do you see that Mr. Borovcanin, his name is under it, if the witness
21 then says, Yes, I see that, answering your question, then to say, Are you
22 really sure? Then you're shifting your subject of your questioning.
23 Because you're not asking the witness any further whether he sees that
24 the name of Borovcanin is under it, but you, without clearly announcing
25 that, you're shifting to whether it was sent by Borovcanin, which is a
1 different question.
2 In all fairness to the witness, you shouldn't do that.
3 And a second guidance, if I may give that to you, your questions
4 will not lose strength if you use your voice in such a way that no one
5 could even think of it being used perhaps a bit too strongly, or that it
6 could never come to anyone's mind that the tone of your voice is having
7 some intimidating effect.
8 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MS. PACK:
11 Q. If you read this paragraph, the second paragraph:
12 "In the night between the 12 and 13 July 1995, this armed Muslim
13 group launched an attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje. In the
14 combat that lasted several hours and which continued throughout today,
15 the enemy sustained a loss of 200 soldiers who were killed, and we
16 captured, or had surrender to us, around 1500 Muslim soldiers. The
17 number increases by the hour."
18 So you knew that the MUP were taking large numbers of prisoners
19 on the 13 July; right.
20 A. I'm not sure that I read the dispatch for a simple reason: I
21 cannot remember. Because Ljubisa Borovcanin is directly under the
22 minister of the interior, not the sector. The special brigade is
23 directly under the authority of the minister of the interior.
24 Q. So just to fully understand your evidence: Borovcanin knew about
25 the Muslim prisoners; Vasic knew about the Muslim prisoners; Kovac knew
1 about the Muslim prisoners; Dragan Kijac knew about the Muslim prisoners;
2 but you, you didn't know anything. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, I didn't know. Because I do not have the authority to act
4 because I was dealing with my own assignments, things that I had been
5 ordered to do.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've told us that several times. It's
7 sufficient you say you didn't know, and why you didn't know is sometimes
8 relevant; but here, most important, is that you say you didn't know. And
9 that dispatches sent under your name, you had no knowledge of their
10 content. Is that -- at least for the one that we saw, that's true, isn't
12 Yes, you had no knowledge of what was sent and what we saw was
13 sent under your name?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly what I
15 personally saw because it's been over 20 years. But for some reasons
16 that you did not exactly allow me to speak about, I did not follow this
17 because it's outside my line of work, and I had a specific task as head
18 of the sector to do some other work in the staff in Pale, not to deal
19 with Srebrenica.
20 And I also --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've told us that now five times. So to
22 say that we didn't allow you to explain that, we allowed you to briefly
23 explain. You did so. Let's move on.
24 MS. PACK:
25 Q. Mr. Karisik, the evidence in this case is that the public
1 security policemen were involved in escorting the convoy of thousands of
2 Muslim men - prisoners - from Bratunac to Zvornik on the 14th of July.
3 Is that something else that you didn't know about at the time?
4 A. At that time, I didn't know that because I did not have authority
5 to act. The unit is resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska in
6 combat action, and they receive tasks on the spot there, and then they're
7 outside the command structure of the Ministry of Interior, and they also
8 are not under my authority then.
9 Q. Did it surprise you on the 16th of July, since you weren't
10 interested or doing anything related to Srebrenica, when Kovac ordered
11 you to go to Zvornik to meet with Pandurevic? That come as a surprise?
12 A. I'm not surprised by any order received from the minister. It is
13 my obligation to carry out orders received from the minister. He is my
15 Q. Meet Dragomir Vasic at the Zvornik CJB. He briefed you about the
16 situation and problems concerning Zvornik. That's in your statement. Is
17 that right? Your evidence.
18 A. Yes, that's right, correct.
19 Q. He sent written reports on the 12th and 13th July, and he's met
20 with -- he was at meeting on 13th of July in Bratunac with Beara and
21 Deronjic, and they talked about the plan to murder Muslim men. That's
22 the evidence in this case. You didn't talk about that, the planned
23 execution of Muslim men?
24 A. Absolutely not.
25 Q. And at the Zvornik Brigade forward command post you met
1 Vinko Pandurevic and you spent several hours with him. That's right,
2 isn't it?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Can we have a reference for "that it is evidence in
5 this case" of the discussions between Colonel Beara and Vasic. Because,
6 in talking with my colleague, I do not recall the same having been led in
7 this case.
8 MS. PACK: Yes, I'll give the reference. It's M. Nikolic, T11952
9 to 11953. And I said he was present at a meeting at the SDS office in
10 Bratunac on the 13 July when Beara and Deronjic talked about the plan to
11 murder the Muslim men. That's for transcript references. Thank you.
12 Q. We'll just go to Vinko Pandurevic, please.
13 So just to pick up the question that you didn't have the chance
14 to answer. It was that you met Vinko Pandurevic at the Zvornik Brigade
15 forward command post and sent several hours with him there, is that
16 right, on the 16th July 1995?
17 A. Yes, that is right. I'm a direct participant there and it is
18 easier for me to answer.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Pack, you gave a reference, the page
20 reference, with respect to Momir Nikolic. Could you repeat that. It was
21 not recorded. And for the sake of Mr. Ivetic, this would be helpful to
22 repeat that.
23 MS. PACK: It was transcript reference T11952 to 11953.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 MS. PACK: Thank you.
1 Q. Pandurevic also briefed you about the situation and problems in
3 A. I don't remember, not particularly, except for this enormous
4 column of Muslim soldiers that is moving. Nothing, in particular.
5 Q. So he talked about the situation related to the column. That's
6 what you say?
7 A. Yes. I'm saying that he told me that this large column had taken
8 a policeman prisoner. And that is the reason why I came on orders from
9 the minister to Pandurevic to his forward command post.
10 MS. PACK: Can we look, please, quickly at P01497.
11 Q. It's in manuscript and I hope can you read it. We see it's dated
12 15th of July, 1995 and it's an interim combat report to the Drina Corps
13 Command. And over the page, you'll see -- if we can just quickly look
14 over the page, you'll see it's from Vinko Pandurevic, the commander.
15 We can just look briefly at pages 2 in both the English
16 translation and the B/C/S before reverting back.
17 It's from, you can see written there, Vinko Pandurevic; correct?
18 A. Yes, I can see it is in handwriting, and it says: Commander,
19 Vinko Pandurevic. That's the signature.
20 Q. And we'll stay on page 2 in the B/C/S and go back to page 1 in
21 the English. I want to look at the fourth paragraph in the English. And
22 in the B/C/S, it's the second and third paragraphs on that page 2.
23 English, it's fourth and fifth.
24 I'll read them. It says:
25 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
1 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as
2 obligations of security and restoration of the terrain?
3 "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer, as
4 it has neither the material nor other resources. If no one takes on this
5 responsibility, I will be forced to let them go."
6 So that's the report that Pandurevic sends the day before he
7 meets with you, spends several hours with you in Zvornik.
8 My question: When he talked to you that day, on the 16th July,
9 did he not say, One of the problems in Zvornik, in addition to the
10 column, fighting the column, is the fact that the VRS are busy executing
11 and burying prisoners, and they've been doing this for three days. It
12 has been a burden for us.
13 Did he not say that?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I object. That does not arise from
16 the document and the section that the counsel has cited.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was there a suggestion that this is from the
19 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
20 MS. PACK: I didn't say this was from the document.
21 MR. IVETIC: It says: So that's that report Pandurevic sends,
22 and then she asked --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. "And then my question: When he talked to
24 you on that day." That is, there is a relation between the document and
25 the question, but there's no suggestion in the question itself that that
1 is what the document says.
2 MR. IVETIC: Then it's a compound question and it's confusing.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I fully agree with that.
4 Could you please split it up.
5 MS. PACK:
6 Q. When you met Pandurevic and you spent several hours with him on
7 the 16th July, did he mention that the VRS had been executing and burying
8 prisoners for three days?
9 A. No. We didn't discuss that, and I never reported on that either.
10 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I see it's time for a break.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is time for a break. We'll take a break of 20
13 We'd like to see you back, Mr. Karisik, after the break. You may
14 follow the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Are you on schedule, as far as time is concerned?
17 MS. PACK: Yes, absolutely.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That means how much time would you still need?
19 MS. PACK: I think it's about 15 minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes.
21 MS. PACK: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you even stay within your time
24 We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MS. PACK: Your Honour, just to say I didn't realise that I
4 had -- apologies for interrupting.
5 Just to say I didn't realise that I had 45 minutes of my allotted
6 time before we broke, and I'm not going to take all of that, but I will
7 be more than 15 minutes, I hope less than half an hour, but I didn't
8 realise I had so much time when you asked the question.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We knew that.
10 MS. PACK: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's not so much time, therefore, I'll use part of
12 most of it, but what do I really need to put the questions that are
13 relevant for us and then to see whether that can be done in as little
14 time as possible. That's the two different approaches.
15 MS. PACK: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think the second one is the one the Chamber
17 prefers. But please move on.
18 MS. PACK: I will be as quick as I can and that is my intention,
19 of course, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Not too quick. Not too quick, Ms. Pack.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 MS. PACK:
23 Q. Witness, Mr. Karisik, can we look, please, at 65 ter 19565.
24 Now, just as we're looking at this, can you confirm, on the face
25 of it, that this is a document dated the 16th of July from a member of
1 the police forces Command Staff in Pale?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if we look at the substance, the first paragraph says, I'll
4 read it out:
5 "Please be informed that today at around 1500 hours we were
6 informed by Assistant Karisik about negotiations between the command of
7 the VRS and enemy forces from Srebrenica and the 2nd Turkish Corps from
8 Tuzla on the passage of the Turkish troops through a part of the
9 territory of Zvornik municipality in the direction of Kalesija. The
10 command of the VRS is represented in the negotiations by Colonel
11 Vinko Pandurevic ..."
12 And it goes on.
13 Now, Assistant Karisik, that's you; correct?
14 A. Yes, that's me.
15 Q. You informed the police forces Command Staff by 1500 hours about
16 Pandurevic's negotiations with the ABiH; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, I'm sure that after the end of my mission with Pandurevic, I
18 had an obligation to report to the staff, and the dispatch actually
19 confirms that I complied with that obligation.
20 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I tender this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7220, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P7220 is admitted.
24 MS. PACK:
25 Q. Now, in your statement at paragraph 62 - you have it in front of
1 you - in the English, in e-court, it's page 18. You've talked about it.
2 You say you were aware that Pandurevic opened the corridor on
3 16th July but you don't recall if you had direct contact with the
4 president - that's Karadzic - about this. Is that your evidence?
5 A. Yes, I didn't have any contacts with President Karadzic.
6 Q. Well, you've been asked about this before.
7 MS. PACK: And could we please have up 65 ter 32252. And we
8 want, please, page 12.
9 Q. And I'm asking to have shown here the transcript of your
10 testimony in the Karadzic case. And it's in English, so I'll read it to
11 you slowly. From line 14.
12 "Q. ... in your statement at paragraph 62, you say you don't
13 remember if you had direct contact with Mr. Karadzic that day.
14 Mr. Karadzic in this trial stated at 26265, lines 1 to 4:
15 "'Thank you. Did you perhaps find out that Mr. Karisik phoned me
16 to inform me of this move of Pandurevic's?'
17 "Does that help you remember that you called and spoke with
18 Mr. Karadzic directly?
19 "A. This, unfortunately not. My technical capacities were very
20 poor. I was in a mountainous area and I wasn't really able to sit down
21 and have a conversation with Mr. Karadzic, truly."
22 Now, is that your truthful testimony, because you've told us you
23 contacted the Pale police forces Command Staff that day before 1500
25 MR. IVETIC: I would object now that's she doing a compound
1 question. If she's going to present a part of the transcript and ask if
2 that is truthful, that's one question. Everything else that comes later
3 is confusing.
4 MS. PACK:
5 Q. Is that your truthful testimony?
6 A. When it comes to reporting to Mr. Karadzic, yes.
7 Q. But it's right --
8 A. It is truthful.
9 Q. It is right, isn't it, that you were able to - and did - report
10 to the Pale police forces staff before 1500 hours on 16th July, like we
11 just saw?
12 A. No, I can't remember the time. I believe it was after 1500
13 hours. They also say "around 1500 hours." It was not before that. I
14 first needed to report to the minister through the staff about my
15 mission, what's -- what its nature was, and that it wasn't completed
16 successfully. This is not contained in the dispatch. I didn't contact
17 the staff from the forward command post. I only did it when I was able
18 to do it, when I got hold of some communications means. This is the
19 whole truth.
20 I could not report to President Karadzic from the forward command
21 post, neither do I remember that I ever did that. There was no need or
22 obligation for me to report to him.
23 Q. That wasn't the question where you reported from. The question
24 was whether you reported.
25 A. I don't understand your question. Reported to whom?
1 Q. Karadzic. This is what you were asked in the Karadzic case. You
2 said you had no direct contact with Karadzic that day. That's the
3 question. Not where you contacted Karadzic from but whether you
4 contacted Karadzic. You understand? Right?
5 A. Now I understand your question. My answer is no.
6 MS. PACK: Your Honours, could we please have P01338.
7 Actually, this is being -- is under seal so if it could not be
9 Q. Now, you've been shown this before. It's dated the 16th of July,
10 1995. And it's an intercept of a conversation between the Main Staff
11 duty officer and General Mladic which takes place at 1615 hours. And
12 I'll read it. Starts: "Good day, General, sir.
13 "Well, it's like this."
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MS. PACK: I'm sorry.
16 Q. "Good day, General, sir."
17 Continues: "Well, it's like this. I've just sent a telegram to
18 Toso. Well, the president called a short while ago and said that he had
19 been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic has arranged passage for the
20 Muslims over to that territory. Since I have no communication with him,
21 I asked the duty officer to urgently connect me with him; to have him
22 send me a telegram with that information and not to do anything without
23 authorisation until he receives our answer. Now I'm waiting for them to
24 call me because Pandurevic hasn't called for the last four ..."
25 And it continues: "Yes, of course. But, but there are both
1 fighters and civilians.
2 And then it goes on: "Nobody is playing around, that's just the
3 information we got."
4 And then it goes on.
5 Karisik, that's you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does this refresh your memory? You were in Zvornik to inform the
8 president what was going on.
9 A. No, that's not correct. It is correct that I was in Zvornik but
10 it is not correct that I reported to President Karadzic.
11 Q. I'm going to ask you about one more document; it's P01586.
12 This is another document you've seen before. It's dated the 16th
13 of January, 1996. It's addressed to the RJB public security department
14 head. That's you, isn't it still, in January 1996?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And also, as we can see, to the Main Staff of the VRS sector for
17 intelligence and security, intelligence administration (for information).
18 You can see that?
19 A. This is not very legible, but still I can read it.
20 There's some yellow stains all over the document. At least in my
22 Q. Well, I'll read it out to make it easier.
23 First paragraph: "Please find enclosed the full text of a
24 dispatch from the Main Staff VRS Main Staff sector for intelligence and
25 security, intelligence administration ..."
1 And if goes on: "To the Ministry of Interior, the minister
3 Goes on: "Considering that we have a group of members in the
4 10th Sabotage Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on a list of
5 individuals who have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you
6 order the Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first and last
7 names to these individuals, or with different first and last names for
8 Serbian nationals, there are 8 ... such individuals."
9 We go over the page in the English, we see that quoted dispatch
10 is from Chief Colonel Petar Salapura.
11 You are remembered -- and this is addressed to you, of course, to
12 act on the request by the VRS Main Staff signed the minister,
13 Dragan Kijac.
14 Just a question about Kijac. Kijac, who had been your
15 counterpart, head of the DB in July 1995, was by then minister; right?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. So the minister orders you to issue fake IDs?
18 A. Yes. The minister sends to the sector an order to issue
19 documents for the intelligence service of the VRS. This is part of
20 co-operation between two organs or two institutions in Republika Srpska.
21 My role was to forward this to the competent administration so that the
22 obligation could be complied with.
23 Q. And, indeed, the obligation was complied with; right?
24 A. I cannot confirm as I sit here what the ultimate outcome was. I
25 did not get any feedback as how much was accomplished. But as head of
1 the -- of that department, I obviously issued an order for the minister's
2 request to be followed through. That was my obligation.
3 Q. You know that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment executed
4 Muslim men at Branjevo farm in July 1995.
5 A. I didn't know who members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment were or
6 what they did. I didn't have that information. That was not the nature
7 of my knowledge at the time.
8 Q. The evidence in this case from one member of the 10th Sabotage
9 Detachment who admitted taking part in mass executions is that he was
10 indeed issued a fake ID. You, head of the public security department of
11 The MUP of Republika Srpska, were protecting these men from The Hague
12 Tribunal; right?
13 A. My answer is no. I just carried out a procedure that is based on
14 the law, that is lawful, from the minister of the interior who had
15 received a request. What that is customary co-operation between services
16 that a certain number of IDs, I mean, we didn't really take into account
17 who they were, what they were. We weren't interested in that. I don't
18 know that now either what it was that they did or individual, et cetera.
19 My professional duty was to forward the request and to have this
20 co-operation between the two organs, the two institutions carried out.
21 Of course, there were records kept and in that administration there is a
22 certain procedure as to how this is supposed to be done. So it is
23 possible to check what was carried out and to what extent and whether all
24 of it had been carried out at all. Afterward, I did not deal with the
25 question of implementation. For me it was a routine thing to carry out
1 an order from the minister.
2 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pack.
4 I have one question in relation to the last matter that was
5 addressed by Ms. Pack. You're emphasizing your obligations. Do you feel
6 you have any obligation not to obstruct justice to be rendered by a court
7 which was founded by the Security Council?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time I was not thinking
9 about this, what you are referring to now. I didn't know about that
10 either. I wasn't interested in the names or who they were.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But it was clear from this document, I think - but
12 tell me if you understand that otherwise - that it was to shield them
13 from prosecutions in The Hague.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't want to comment on
15 Salapura's dispatch and the intelligence service of the military
16 security. We probably as a different organ of the Ministry of Interior
17 acted and that is customary co-operation. That's what matters to me.
18 Now as for the rest, I really cannot say anything about that, and
19 I didn't think about that. I'm a professional. That is what my powers
20 were and I did that. Of course, in that administration, there is a
21 special procedure, so if there is a problem, then the true identity can
22 be established and so on, but that is a question for a different witness.
23 As head of the sector, I carried out the minister's order and that is
24 that, and I cannot give any further comment.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You're moving away from my question.
1 My question is whether your obligations not to obstruct justice,
2 which was established by the Security Council, would not prevail over
3 your duty to obey orders from your minister, especially if those orders
4 clearly seem to allude to the action required by you -- required to be
5 taken by you would be instrumental to such obstruction of justice.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that I am carrying out
7 the procedure of the Ministry of Interior and enforcing the law. That is
8 my obligation on the basis of the law. I did not think about any further
9 implications, and there was no need to do that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If I understand you well, you say, I thought about
11 the law, which you followed, and you didn't think about the law which may
12 have imposed obligations upon you as well, but you just did not think
13 about that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the term that
15 you used "promislijo"; "thought." I said that I carried out the orders
16 issued to me by the minister and that is in accordance with the law and
17 the rules in my ministry, and nothing more than that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of possibly obligations that are
19 imposed under international law?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, at that point in time, no.
21 Obviously. But as head of the public security sector, I'm duty-bound to
22 carry out the procedures of work of the Ministry of Interior.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you've told us that now three times.
24 Last question: Were you aware of the existence of this Tribunal
25 in early 1996, January 1996?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I was aware of
2 that. I cannot remember.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This -- this last answer takes me back to
4 questions that were put to you in relation to paragraph 62 of your
6 Today, I think you clearly testified that you had not directly
7 contacted President Karadzic about the corridor, the column of Muslims
8 moving out. Is that well understood?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in your statement, you do not say you had no
11 contact. In your statement, you say: "I do not recall if I had direct
13 What made you change your mind in relation to what is found in
14 your statement?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand in what way I
16 changed my mind? What do you mean changed my mind?
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll explain to you. If I say, I don't recall
18 whether I was at location A yesterday, that means it could be yes; it
19 could be no. If I say, I was not at location A yesterday, that's only
20 one possibility. That is, I wasn't there.
21 Now, in your statement, you leave it open whether you had or
22 whether you had not direct contact with President Karadzic about the
23 corridor because you say, I don't recall if I had.
24 Today you say, I had not, which is not the same.
25 Do you have any explanation for this change as I just explained
1 it to you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my paragraph 62, I said that I
3 do not remember having contacted President Karadzic. That is what I
4 confirm today as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let me show you --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not contact --
7 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the same. If you don't understand that,
8 then there are other instances where you also said, I don't remember, and
9 then later say it didn't happen, which is not the same.
10 I had hoped you would understand it. If you do not, then that --
11 we'll have to consider that when evaluating your evidence.
12 If you have no further explanation and if you say it's just the
13 same, then we'll move on and I'll give an opportunity to Mr. Ivetic to
14 put further questions to you.
15 Oh, but perhaps first Judge Moloto may have one or more
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to follow up on some of the issues that
18 Judge Orie raised on the question of this order from the minister.
19 Within your duties in the department where you were working, was
20 it also so that you were obliged to carry out orders which were unlawful?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And -- you have answered me. Thank you so much.
23 You do not see this order as unlawful? To order somebody to make
24 fake IDs to people? Isn't that unlawful?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the request of one
1 security service, one organ, that is, to another, is legal legitimate and
2 lawful, and we are duty-bound to respond to that request for co-operation
3 that is based on the law.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. What I'm asking you is the content of
5 the order that you're co-operating on. You say it's unlawful, is it not?
6 Is it not unlawful to ask that fake IDs be issued to people? I'm not
7 asking about co-operation with other departments.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not unlawful if the Ministry
9 of the Interior is responding to requests for co-operation from the
10 intelligence service of the Army of Republika Srpska. These are not
11 unlawful doings. This is something that exists anywhere in the world,
12 that kind of co-operation. The issuing of such documents is not
13 unlawful. On our side, we do not go into who they are, et cetera.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I stop you there. You say it's not unlawful to
15 respond. I'm not asking you to respond. I'm saying is it not unlawful
16 to order that fake IDs be issued? That's the question. I'm not talking
17 about your co-operation. I'm talking about the order.
18 To order fake IDs to be issued: Is that lawful?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is our obligation to do that for
20 a different organ, that a certain number of IDs and number of documents
21 should be done. I don't think that is unlawful. I think that all
22 security services in the world do that for individuals for whom it is
23 necessary to do that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you. You
25 either want to answer my question or you don't want to answer it.
1 My question has nothing to do with what co-operation you're
2 obliged to give. I'm asking you is an order by a superior that is --
3 says issue fake IDs is that a lawful order in your understanding of the
4 law? If you -- it's either yes or no, and I realise that you are not
5 answering my question, and I stop at that point.
6 MR. IVETIC: I would direct you to page 37, line 2 where the
7 witness answered your question.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 37 --
9 MR. IVETIC: 37, line 2: I don't think that it is unlawful.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's talking about something different,
11 Mr. Ivetic, with all due respect. He starts by saying: "It is our
12 obligation to do that for a different organ that a certain number of IDs
13 and a number of documents should be done. I don't think it's unlawful."
14 I'm not asking him about whether he should do something. I'm
15 asking him about whether the order he received is lawful.
16 MR. IVETIC: And in my position, Your Honours, he has answered
17 that by saying, I don't think that is unlawful, I think that
18 all [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm telling you he
20 hasn't answered me.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There's some ambiguity there in what the witness
22 says is unlawful.
23 Do I understand your answer to be that not under all
24 circumstances ordering to issue a fake ID is considered to be unlawful?
25 Did you hear my question or did you not?
1 MR. IVETIC: Translation is still going, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that the order of the
4 minister is not unlawful. That is my only comment. I have no other
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- that's an answer to the question.
7 Mr. Ivetic, any further questions for the witness?
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 Q. If we can stay with this document and this topic for the time
11 being, let's take a step backwards in time to the time-period before the
12 war when the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had
13 jurisdiction over the entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In your opinion
14 with such an order to have fake IDs issued to intelligence personnel,
15 would that have been a type of order that the SFRY -- SFR
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina would have undertake prior to the war?
17 MS. PACK: Your Honours, that's a very leading question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is. Would you please rephrase your question.
19 MR. IVETIC: If I could have assistance I don't see where it is
20 leading when taking back to a time-period prior to the war. Such
21 questions to establish a time-period are permitted in direct examination
22 according to my understanding of trial procedure.
23 MS. PACK: I didn't understand it to be a question about time, I
24 must say.
25 MR. IVETIC: I won't respond to that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's clearly hinting at what you expect to be the
2 answer. In that respect, it is leading. Please rephrase your question.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Do you know if such fake IDs would have been issued in due course
5 by the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to the outbreak of the war?
6 A. My answer and my opinion is yes. Because this is customary
7 co-operation in all countries of the world regarding changes of IDs with
8 different names and surnames, and that is done by all police forces in
9 the world. In the war, before the war, after the war, to this day.
10 Q. And now this order, if we can go back to the first page in
11 English, and if we could scroll up to the top in the B/C/S, this is dated
12 in the year 1996.
13 Sir, do you know when the Law on Co-operation with the ICTY
14 Tribunal was enacted on either -- on the territory of Republika Srpska?
15 A. I cannot say exactly, but I think it is after that.
16 Q. As --
17 A. I cannot remember exactly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the parties certainly are in a
19 position to agree on whether a certain law was enacted.
20 MR. IVETIC: I would offer a stipulation for the Prosecution to
21 concur that it was enacted in 2001.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that we don't have do deal with that
23 court at this moment. I cannot imagine the parties cannot agree when a
24 certain act was adopted.
25 MR. IVETIC: But Your Honours' questions to the witness talks
1 about unlawfulness of an order talks about co-operation with the ICTY;
2 therefore, it is germane to this testimony.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there is more than domestic laws having
4 been adopted. If it was as simple as that, then we might perhaps have an
5 easier job.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Thank you.
8 Q. If we can move to another topic, you were asked about a number of
9 dispatches -- or about dispatches that were sent to your office. One of
10 which was P7217. And I want to ask you, sir, based upon your position
11 within the public security sector in 1995, do you have an estimate of the
12 number of documents, dispatches, or other reports that would be addressed
13 to your position as one of the recipients, among others in the MUP, from
14 across the country in the normal course of business in a day, a week, or
15 any time-period that you can assist us with?
16 A. Yes, I understand what you're saying. The RJB is the largest
17 structure, the most numerous one, with the largest subject matter dealt
18 with within the Ministry of Interior. When the police is used in combat
19 operations, there was an enormous number of dispatches arriving every day
20 and the administrations reacted in accordance with their authority and
21 carried out work in the domain of publish law and order, the
22 crime-prevention police, checking border crossings, traffic, protecting
23 people and their property is our constitutional duty otherwise as well
24 and --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir you were asked for a number, an estimate of
1 the number, not describing the whole structure. How many per day or per
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say exactly what that
4 number is. Maybe the analytics department could say about that period,
5 but the security subject matter dealt with by the ministry involved
6 great -- a great many dispatches from Trebinje to Banja Luka. So the
7 chief of communications would have to --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have answered the question.
9 MR. IVETIC: Can I proceed, Your Honour, or do you have anything?
10 If we can now look at P3009.
11 Q. This was shown to you during cross-examination.
12 This document from Momcilo Mandic is dated the 31st of March,
13 1992. Was the special police unit divided and split already by this
14 date, the date of this document?
15 A. No. The date of the 27th of March, 1992 is being referred to
16 here. The unit disbanded in the evening on the 4th of April, 1992.
17 Q. Okay. Now, did this dispatch have immediate effect upon the
18 special police unit, or were any additional steps required to be received
19 by the special police unit?
20 A. At that level then in this joint unit, I did not receive this
21 dispatch personally. Perhaps it was sent to the commander of the unit,
22 but he didn't show it to me. And this dispatch -- well, quite a bit of
23 time went by. I've already referred to the dates. And we stayed in this
24 joint formation and obviously this was not addressed to us on the basis
25 of the date when this was sent.
1 Q. Okay. Now, at transcript pages 33161 and 33163, you were
2 directed to your statement talking about the agreement on the splitting
3 of the MUP and how it was in keeping with the Lisbon-Cutileiro Plan.
4 Let's first talk in terms of the Cutileiro Plan. What was your
5 understanding of how the Cutileiro Plan applied to what was going on in
6 the MUP at that time, the Republic of Bosnia MUP at that time?
7 A. The Cutileiro Plan is a plan that envisaged a new internal set-up
8 within Bosnia-Herzegovina. As far as I know, in this plan, in its
9 chapters, there was this important thing that had to do with the Ministry
10 of Interior or, rather, the police. And all three communities, all three
11 ethnic communities, all three peoples, on the basis of that plan, could
12 set up their own police force in the area where they were a majority.
13 This plan was signed by the highest representatives of the Muslim, Croat
14 and Serb peoples. Unfortunately, Serbs carried out that plan; but,
15 unfortunately, as far as I know, the Muslim representative on the plane
16 backtracked and withdrew his approval, whichever way you want to put it.
17 Q. Okay. Now, if we can call up D935. That should be your
18 statement, which I think I still have in front of you. And if we could
19 turn to page 7 in the Serbian, page 6 in the English, and I'd like to
20 focus on paragraph 19 of the same.
21 And, sir, focussing on the Serbian original which you signed, in
22 the English translation, it says: "In keeping with the Treaty of
23 Lisbon/Cutileiro Plan," were you talking about a treaty in the Serbian
24 original or a -- what -- could you read for us what it says in the
25 Serbian original as to that passage where the Cutileiro Plan is
2 A. Based on the agreement reached at the top echelons of the
3 Ministry of Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian special police
4 was given the base in Vrace in the school of the Ministry of Interior.
5 Whereas, the Muslim and Croatian part of the special police remained in
6 Krtelje. That was about the decision which was passed at
7 Minister Delimustafic's level and co-ordinated with him.
8 Q. We seem to have missed the part that I was focussing on. Could
9 you read for us what appears in the Serbian, what words appear in the
10 Serbian just before Cutileiro Plan, the other part of how the -- the two
11 word that appear before Cutileiro Plan?
12 A. What appears is the wording in keeping with the Lisbon Agreement.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. If I understand the -- the portion properly.
15 Q. That is what I was referring to as in the English, it says the
16 Lisbon Treaty.
17 Now I'd like to look at P3106 in e-court.
18 In e-court, this Prosecution document has been identified as:
19 "Statement of principles for new constitutional arrangements of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Lisbon Agreement."
21 And if we can go to page 3 in both versions, this is dated
22 18 March 1992 and is -- says at the bottom: "As agreed by the leaders of
23 SDA, SDS, and HDZ parties in the fifth round of the talks on future
24 constitutional arrangements for Bosnia and Herzegovina under the auspices
25 of the EC Peace Conference."
1 Is this the Cutileiro Plan/Lisbon Agreement that you are
2 referencing in this paragraph of your statement?
3 A. Yes. My opinion is that this is a part of the Lisbon Treaty.
4 Q. And if we could turn to page 4, the very next page, there is a
5 map here that gives designations for Muslim, Serb and Croat. Are you
6 familiar with --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I just interrupt you. I
8 understood the issue raised in cross-examination was whether or not there
9 was a -- a final agreement which could be applied, rather than there was
10 any discussion about what the Cutileiro Plan, applicable or not, would
11 encompass and including, maps, et cetera, I'm not aware of any map issue
12 being raised.
13 So, therefore, I'm wondering whether I misunderstood the
14 cross-examination or what makes you think that this issue is triggered by
15 the cross-examination.
16 MR. IVETIC: I understood they were requesting the existence of
17 the citation in the statement primarily saying that there was no treaty
18 which we've now seen as a result of imprecise translation.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack.
20 MS. PACK: As I remember I'm just trying to finds the reference,
21 but I think I actually referred to the statement of principles in terms.
22 And then didn't ask questions about the detail because --
23 JUDGE ORIE: It was about whether it had become final, whether it
24 was binding upon the parties and that's -- and therefore whether you
25 could talk about a treaty, whether it was concluded yes or no, not about
1 the content of what was drafted and this one would have been.
2 MS. PACK: Yes. And the follow-up was whether it was agreed the
3 MUP was divided [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's another matter
5 whether that there was agreement among the parties.
6 So, therefore, I think, Mr. Ivetic, the maps, et cetera, is not a
7 matter which is in dispute at this moment in this context.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Fair enough. I just stress that the
10 Prosecution's own exhibit calls it the Lisbon Agreement; just so we're
11 clear on that.
12 If we can turn to -- well, actually, no.
13 Q. There's quite a number of questions in cross-examination about
14 whether the splitting of the special police unit and the sending of the
15 Serb part to Vrace was known or agreed to by the collegium of the MUP. I
16 would again ask for 1D5309 to be admitted into evidence?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack.
18 MS. PACK: I wasn't talking about the special unit in
19 cross-examination. There were four question about the division of the
20 MUP and it was just these two documents, so I think to then go back and
21 talk again about the special unit would not really be re-examination.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm not doing any questions; I'm just making a
23 submission again as to the associated exhibit. Your Honours, if it
24 assists I can shorten the 16 pages of that document by saying pages 5
25 through 8 -- actually 5 through 11, 5 through 11 encompass the entire
1 process of that and I would revise our request for that associated
2 exhibits to be admitted limiting it to those pages, 5 and through
3 exclusive 11. And I think it's now appropriate to have that tendered and
4 admitted based upon the cross-examination of the Prosecution on this very
5 same area, relying upon a 1992 dispatch of Mr. Alija Delimustafic who is
6 the person giving the testimony in 1D5309.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, any objection against ...
8 MS. PACK: Your Honours, I maintain the position, the Prosecution
9 maintains the position that this extract of testimony from apparently
10 from Delimustafic in the State Court is neither relevant nor probative to
11 the extent -- or, indeed, an inseparable and indispensable part of the
12 testimony. I don't see how it assists. But perhaps I need to read the
13 paragraphs that my friend is now relying on.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think the pages were given yesterday so,
15 therefore, you had an opportunity already.
16 I do understand that the Defence wants to establish that
17 Mr. Delimustafic -- but not only him. There is more than just the
18 statement of Mr. Delimustafic, Mr. Ivetic, but at least in one point in
19 time he describes the process as he did in that courtroom.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber was just wondering whether
22 on what basis it will now be admitted. You said it is a document which
23 sheds additional light on -- on -- well, perhaps you explain exactly what
24 the procedural position of the Defence is in this respect and also in
25 relation to whether any questions were put to the witness about what now
1 appears to be the content of the document you're referring to.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And please repeat the correct number. It was not
3 recorded properly. I think it is 1D05309; correct?
4 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
5 So 1D05309 is an associated document, associated with paragraph
6 19 of the witness' statement, which we originally tendered as an
7 associated exhibit. After questions were asked of the witness of his
8 knowledge of Mr. Delimustafic's comments, Your Honours suggested that now
9 the testimony of the witness could stand in place of the document. And I
10 agreed with you.
11 Then the Prosecution cross-examined the witness presenting
12 documents that pre-date the 2001 testimony of Delimustafic, implying that
13 was no agreement at the collegium level and that there -- and that
14 Delimustafic was -- was ordering that the units that the MUP not be
15 split. And so for purposes of understanding the witness's testimony in
16 19 and assessing the credibility of the witness's testimony in relation
17 to 19 and in relation to the answers to the questions in
18 cross-examination I'm now re-raising 1D05309, the page selection that I
19 identified, as it is directly relevant and directly tied to the questions
20 that were posed to him in cross-examination and helps the Chamber to
21 assess the testimony of the witness given during that cross-examination.
22 And it's for that limited purpose, not for the truth of the matter
23 asserted in the document 1D5309.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, any objection?
25 MS. PACK: I still don't understand why it is being admitted --
1 sought to be admitted not for the truth, but I understand it's being
2 sought to be admitted to corroborate what the witness is saying about a
3 few incidents not -- so -- I am -- I think it is being sought to be
4 admitted for its truth. I mean, that's the point is that it's a
5 transcript of what this individual says, which as I understand it the
6 Defence says corroborates the witness.
7 Now the point really is just a point of principle, is whether
8 it's really and truly is indispensable and inseparable to this witness's
9 testimony to put in somebody else's testimony in another case that
10 apparently - so the Defence says - supports what he is saying.
11 That's the point and I don't say anything further, but that's the
12 point of our position.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will MFI the document.
15 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
16 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D936, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D936 is marked for identification and the Chamber
18 will, in due course, decide on the admission as requested by the Defence.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that would be -- have you uploaded the
22 relevant pages.
23 MR. IVETIC: I haven't. Still need to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Still needs to be done, so D936 is reserved for the
25 extract of the court proceedings in the case against Mr. Mandic, both
1 covering the testimony of Mr. Delimustafic and some other portions as
3 In accordance with the pages mentioned by Mr. Ivetic, and once
4 it's uploaded, we'd like to hear from you.
5 MR. IVETIC: You will, Your Honours. We're at the time for the
6 break. I have no further questions.
7 Q. I'd like to thank you Mr. Karisik on behalf of the Defence team
8 for coming.
9 MR. IVETIC: And thank you, Your Honours for the extra time that
10 we went over.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we take that break, could I inquire
12 with the Prosecution if you have any further questions.
13 MS. PACK: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have one further question. Please answer briefly.
15 We see your statement from the Karadzic case and quite a number
16 of paragraphs have been redacted, removed, more or less, blackened out.
17 Could you tell us how this happened? Did you suggest to take those
18 portions out, or did it happen in any other way? Could you just briefly
19 describe how this happened?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A certain number of generals
21 thought that this should be my statement that should be based on my
22 previous statement --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the first part of the
25 JUDGE ORIE: The first part was not well captured by our
1 interpreters. Could you please repeat what you said in the beginning of
2 your answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Defence team of General Mladic,
4 that was the first part. They redacted my statement because they thought
5 that to be necessary for this case, for this trial, and this testimony.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
7 May I take it that my question has not triggered any further --
8 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. I could tell that you in keeping
9 with your guidance we redacted the statements. The unredacted is
10 available in e-court as 1D4749 without the A.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not look at it.
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But we take that the Prosecution has done so.
14 MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karisik, this concludes your evidence.
16 I'd like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and
17 for having answered all the questions that were put to you - sometimes
18 even more than that - questions that were put to you by the parties and
19 by the Bench. You may follow the usher. I wish you a safe return home
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 12.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we invite the Defence to call its next
2 witness, there are a few procedural items I'd like to briefly deal with.
3 The first one is the Defence has asked for additional time to
4 prepare for the reopening of the Prosecution's case. When could the
5 Chamber expect the response by the Prosecution? Because we considered it
6 be an urgent matter.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President. I think
8 certainly in the next two days. It shouldn't take us long. We do need
9 to just focus on it, and speak to our superiors. But that shouldn't be a
10 problem. I would hope within two days. We'll let you know if there's
11 any delay in that. Normally, as you know, as Mr. Tieger said, this is
12 the kind of thing we leave in your hands, but we need to take a closer
13 look at this, see if we could be of help.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Chamber would very much appreciate
15 that you respond as quickly as possible so that we can further consider
16 the matter. And, of course, it has an impact on all kinds of plans and
17 scheduling issues and therefore we'd like to deal with it as quickly as
18 we can.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to deal with a few matters and read two
24 First one deals with the admission of P7049.
25 On the 21st and the 22nd of January of this year, the Prosecution
1 and the Defence used excerpts of document bearing 65 ter number 14008
2 with Prosecution -- with the Witness -- not a Prosecution witness,
3 GRM014. Exhibit number P7049 was reserved for the document pending
4 agreement between the parties as to which pages would be tendered. You
5 can find this on transcript page 30439 through 30440.
6 On 22 January the Prosecution informed the Chamber that it had
7 uploaded an excerpt into e-court under 65 ter number 14008a and requested
8 that it be admitted. The Chamber is inviting the Defence to express
9 itself on whether it has any objections.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will inform you
11 about that tomorrow morning because my colleague, Mr. Lukic, is dealing
12 with that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for your answer and receive it
14 tomorrow morning.
15 Then there is a remaining issue from the testimony of
16 Slavko Puhalic, it's about D899.
17 During the testimony of this witness on 12 February 2015, D899, a
18 video, was marked for identification pending information from the Defence
19 on the date, location where it was filmed, and a number of sequences in
20 the video. This can be found at transcript pages 31649 to 31651.
21 On the 9th of February, the Defence informed the Chamber that
22 D899 was taped on the 5th of August, 1992 and is an excerpt of
23 65 ter number 22615, which also is a video. This can be found at
24 transcript pages 32740 to -741. The Chamber notes that the Defence did
25 not provide any information on where the video had been filmed or on the
1 number of sequences included in the video, as requested by the Chamber on
2 the 4th of March at transcript page 32636.
3 The Chamber therefore denies the admission of D899 into evidence
4 without prejudice.
5 Then I'll deliver the oral decision on the expertise of
6 Bruno Franjic related to the Tomasica mass grave.
7 On the 26th of August, 2014, the Prosecution filed a notice of
8 disclosure of Bruno Franjic's expert report related to the Tomasica mass
9 grave, pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
10 On the 18th of September, the Chamber granted the Defence request
11 of the 8th of September for an extension of time to file its Rule 94 bis
12 (B) notice. The Defence responded on the 22nd of December, objecting to
13 the Prosecution's notice of disclosure of expert reports related to the
14 Tomasica mass grave.
15 The Defence submits that the Prosecution be ordered to supplement
16 its submission regarding Franjic to meet the minimum threshold required
17 by Rule 94 bis or, in the alternative, that Franjic be disqualified as an
18 expert and that his report be rejected. It submits that the conclusions
19 in the report tend to fall outside the scope of his expertise and that
20 there's a suspicion of bias that impacts on the impartiality of the
22 With respect to the applicable law concerning expert evidence,
23 the Chamber recalls and refers to its 19th of October 2012 decision
24 concerning Richard Butler. On the basis of Franjic's curriculum vitae,
25 the Chamber is satisfied that he has specialised knowledge in the field
1 of ballistic analysis. Such knowledge may be of assistance to the
2 Chamber in understanding issues related to the evidence on the exhumation
3 of the Tomasica grave-site.
4 With regard to the Defence request to cross-examine the witness,
5 the Chamber notes that the Prosecution plans to call Franjic as part of
6 its reopening case. The Defence will therefore have the opportunity to
7 cross-examine him.
8 As for any of the arguments raised by the Defence related to the
9 reliability and exceeding of expertise of Franjic's report, the Chamber
10 considers that these are matters that can be, and should be, addressed
11 during the cross-examination of the witness. The Defence will also have
12 an opportunity to fully explore the witness's alleged bias in the course
13 of cross-examination or can address it by means of an expert opinion in
15 Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides, pursuant to
16 Rule 94 bis, that Witness Franjic may be called to testify as an expert
17 witness and shall be made available for cross-examination by the Defence;
18 denies the Defence request to order the Prosecution to supplement its
19 submission; and denies the Defence request to disqualify Franjic as an
21 The Chamber defers its decision on admission of the report and
22 its addendum to the time of the witness's testimony. And this concludes
23 the Chamber's decision.
24 I will now deliver a decision of a similar nature.
25 A decision on the expertise of Elmira Karahasanovic, in regard to
1 the exhumation of the Tomasica mass grave.
2 On the 26th of August 2014, the Prosecution filed a notice of
3 disclosure of Elmira Karahasanovic's expert report related to the
4 Tomasica mass grave pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and
6 On 18th September, the Chamber granted the Defence request of the
7 8th of September for an extension of time to file its Rule 94 bis (B)
8 notice. The Defence responded on 22nd of December, objecting to the
9 Prosecution's notice of disclosure of expert reports related to the
10 Tomasica mass grave.
11 The Defence submits that the Prosecution be ordered to supplement
12 its submission regarding Witness Karahasanovic to meet the minimum
13 threshold required by Rule 94 bis or, alternatively, that Karahasanovic
14 be disqualified as an expert than her report be rejected.
15 The Defence contends that the report exceeds the scope of her
16 expertise. The Defence further challenges the methodology and
17 reliability of the proffered report. With respect to the applicable law
18 concerning expert evidence, the Chamber recalls and refers to its
19 decision of the 19th of October, 2012, concerning Richard Butler. On the
20 basis of Karahasanovic's curriculum vitae, the Chamber is satisfied that
21 she has specialised knowledge in the field of forensic pathology. Such
22 knowledge may be of assistance to the Chamber in understanding issues
23 related to the evidence on the exhumation of the Tomasica grave-site.
24 With regard to the Defence request to cross-examine the witness,
25 the Chamber notes that the Prosecution plans to call Karahasanovic as
1 part of its reopening case. The Defence will therefore have the
2 opportunity to cross-examine her.
3 As for any of the arguments raised by the Defence related to the
4 methodology, reliability, and exceeding of expertise of Karahasanovic's
5 report, the Chamber considers that these are matters that can be, and
6 should be, addressed during the cross-examination of the witness.
7 Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides, pursuant to Rule 94
8 bis, that Witness Karahasanovic may be called to testify as an expert
9 witness and shall be made available for cross-examination by the Defence;
10 denies the Defence request to order the Prosecution to supplement its
11 submission; and denies the Defence request to disqualify
12 Elmira Karahasanovic as an expert. The Chamber defers its decision on
13 admission of the report and photodocumentation to the time of the
14 witness's testimony.
15 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Although there were a few more items on my agenda,
18 we, nevertheless, think it's better to first proceed with hearing the
19 testimony of the next witness.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, the next witness would be?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Dragoslav Trisic is our next
22 witness, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Trisic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
3 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
4 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
7 and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV TRISIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Trisic. Please be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trisic, you'll first be examined by
13 Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic
14 is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, according to the procedure that we observe
19 here, would you please slowly state your name and surname.
20 A. My name is Dragoslav Trisic. My father's name is Stanko.
21 Q. Mr. Trisic, at one point in time, did you give a statement, a
22 written statement, to the Defence of General Mladic?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
25 have 65 ter 1D01640 in e-court, please.
1 Q. Mr. Trisic, you have the first page of this statement before you.
2 And my question is whether you recognise the signature on this page.
3 A. Yes, I do. It is my signature.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at
5 the last page of this document.
6 Q. Mr. Trisic, same question: On this last page of this document,
7 do you recognise the signature and in whose hand was this date written?
8 A. I recognise my signature, and the date was written in my own
9 hand; the 6th of June, 2014.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please focus on
12 paragraph 23 of this statement.
13 Q. Mr. Trisic, yesterday when we were preparing for your court
14 appearance, did you indicate that your wish would be to give a more
15 precise explanation in view of this sentence. And this is what you said
16 to me: "After the word came in the last sentence" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, usually this procedure is used to
18 make any corrections to the statement or to -- but if we need further
19 clarifications, you should read them to the witness. You should put
20 questions to the witness so as to have further information. So this
21 first stage, before tendering the document, should be used to make
22 corrections. And then, if there's any further elaboration you'd like to
23 seek, that's to be done in the remaining time but not by you reading what
24 the witness would wish to say and what he told you because, to say the
25 least, that would be leading.
1 Therefore, if there's any other matter in terms of correction,
2 please tell us or ask the witness about it. Then move to admission or at
3 least the tendering, and then put any additional questions to the
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a
6 minor correction.
7 Q. So just one word --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Are we still in the same paragraph?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 23. The last
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well --
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Where it says: "...arrived at
13 the Vihor enterprise ..."
14 Q. You wanted to indicate that "arrived at the parking lot of the
15 Vihor enterprise"; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. May I explain? The parking lot of Vihor is separate from
17 work-shops and the company itself. It's a separate parking lot. At the
18 entrance into the town of Bratunac from the direction of Konjevic Polje.
19 Q. Thank you. And now once you've made this correction and after
20 having taken the solemn declaration here in this courtroom that you will
21 tell the whole truth to the best of your knowledge and ability with
22 regard to all of these events, if the same questions were put to you
23 today would you give identical answers along with this correction that
24 we've just entered into your statement?
25 A. Yes, I would give identical answers as those provided in this
1 statement, as written in this statement.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
4 tender into evidence the statement of Witness Dragoslav Trisic, 65 ter
5 number 1D01640.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
7 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D937, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 Mr. Stojanovic, I was misled by your announcement that it was an
11 explanation that would follow rather than a correction.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At the same time, Your Honours,
14 I would like to ask that two documents be admitted into evidence as
15 supporting documents. 65 ter 04209 and 24904.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to the first one, Your Honours, 4209,
18 the Prosecution's position is that been insufficiently commented and not
19 contextualised in any regard, so it is not an indispensable part of the
20 evidence and frankly looking at what sits in e-court in terms of the
21 original document, I have some doubt that the witness has even seen it.
22 And keeping that in mind, I have some reservations about whether he's
23 actually seen in preparation for his testimony the second document, 4209,
24 when I call it up in e-court in its original B/C/S is illegible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the second is 24904. And perhaps -- let me
1 look at it for a second please. It's paragraph 16 of his statement.
2 Could we have that last one on our screen, 24904. I will.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's a 65 ter number.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I should have added that.
5 Ms. Edgerton, I think you said this was an illegible version.
6 Now --
7 MS. EDGERTON: The first one, Your Honours. 4209.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The first one.
9 MS. EDGERTON: 4209.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 4209. Then I made a mistake in that respect.
11 Could we have a look at 04209, 65 ter.
12 MS. EDGERTON: That's not the right 65 ter number. We're looking
13 for 04209.
14 So now that's the right document. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll further ask the witness.
16 Witness, in paragraph 8 of your statement, you are recorded as
17 having referred to this document.
18 Or is it a document from another case, Mr. -- no, it's not.
19 Could you please tell us how you were able to comment on the
20 original of this document, Witness?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one sentence,
22 please. Could you please take a look at the next page of this document?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have the next page.
1 Does that -- there we are.
2 Could we have -- I'm just confused at this moment, but...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us whether you have seen --
5 We go back to the first page. We'll do it page by page.
6 Have you seen this document before when you gave your statement?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you read it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With difficulty. But since I also
10 saw the text that I personally wrote it my own hand, I could probably
11 decipher the requests for equipment and materiel.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first have a look --
13 Do you say that the handwriting is the same as what is found on
14 this page or -- I do not fully understand, perhaps, your ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the original
16 handwritten document that I compiled in my own handwriting.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll move to that page.
18 But are you saying that you could decipher what is here in
19 this -- in this typed or printed document?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to be honest, it's not easy
21 to decipher the document. All in all, this is difficult to decipher.
22 This is the best way I can put it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you able to do it ever?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we move onto the next page. I would say
1 let's go in the original to page 3 because page 2 is only a -- only
2 contains two numbers.
3 Page 3. Could you tell us what this is?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see when the command of
5 the Drina Corps received the preparatory order on the 2nd of July, 1995,
6 I studied the commander's request, and I issued a request for equipment
7 and materiel. I sent it to the Drina Corps Command. The goal was to
8 have a timely delivery of the missing equipment and materiel in our
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll later hear any further explanations. I'm just
11 at this moment focussing on legibility.
12 Could we go to page 4 in e-court in the original.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the original. And now
14 what's on the screen is not -- just a while ago, I had my own document in
15 my own handwriting which was rather legible and what I can see now on the
16 screen is something that I don't recognise. I don't know what this is
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we move to page 5.
19 MS. EDGERTON: I may have a suggestion that could obviate
20 spending more time on this. I'm in Your Honours' hands if you'd like to
21 hear from me on this.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first go to page 5. That's the last page
23 anyhow of the document, and then ...
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We would like to see the English version so that
25 we can compare the documents.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you explain what this is? Is this
3 the ...
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have the B/C/S back? Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Witness, what this is.
6 Could the B/C/S moved in such a way that we can see more of the
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. There we are. It's -- it was possible.
10 Witness, could you tell us what this is. Is this the second part
11 of your handwritten document?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Clearly this is the second
13 page of the same document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Ms. Edgerton, you had a suggestion what best to do.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Well, it's with gratitude to Ms. Stewart who as we
17 were discussing this was able to make contact with the evidence unit who
18 were able to provide a better scan of the original document that was
19 being tendered as a prospective associated exhibit, and given the
20 questions and answers of this witnesses, maybe the best thing is to allow
21 us to upload a better original document, which we could do immediately
22 and have the witness affirm that it's identical to what he has just gone
23 through with Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're following that suggestion?
25 Then what we'll do is we'll reserve a number for this document,
1 awaiting the final upload of the better legible copy.
2 Mr. Registrar, that would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D938, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D938 is reserved.
5 Then for the other document, the other associated exhibit, which
6 was - let me just have a look - I think it was 65 ter 24904. That would
7 receive number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D939, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 Mr. -- we -- I'm -- just one second.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, I'm still a bit puzzled by exhibit numbers
12 already given to, for example, 65 ter 04209. What exhibit number is
13 that? Or is that exhibit in this case?
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is an exhibit in this case.
16 It has a number.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the Prosecutor's
19 assistance and understanding. We had an occasion to review this with the
20 witness and I will obviously continue when we have a better version. And
21 now, Your Honours, I would like to read the witness statement summary.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- please do so.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I couldn't follow the last discussion about the
25 In paragraph 8 of the statement, there are two numbers, one is an
1 exhibit number, P1464; and then there are -- is the small i which is
2 as -- if I'm not mistake an "and," and then the 65 ter number we are
3 talking about. Mr. Stojanovic, are these two exhibits or is it one
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can understand it,
6 this would effectively be two exhibits because P1464 was the typewritten
7 version without the handwritten attachment that was recognised by the
8 witness as his own document that he had drafted in his own hand.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this can't be the case because in your
10 list of associated exhibits, there appears a different exhibit --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P1464 is the Drina Corps Command order and not
13 the -- an order or report by the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are totally different documents; correct?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are right. P1464 is the
17 order of the Drina Corps Command. The document is already in evidence
18 but it is mentioned in paragraph 8.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And in addition to that, another document we
20 talked about, which is now reserved as D938. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That having been clarified, please read your
24 summary, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Dragoslav Trisic is a
1 reserve officer. In April 1992 he was mobilised by the Ministry of
2 Defence in Bratunac. He was assigned to discharge the duties as a
3 Chief of Staff of the TO. At that time, the TO commander was
4 Captain Momir Nikolic.
5 When the VRS was established, he discharged a series of duties
6 and finally he was appointed the assistant commander of the Bratunac
7 Brigade for logistics. He remained in that position until the end of the
9 In his statement, he speaks about his activities which preceded
10 the events known as Krivaja 95 and the tasks that he had at the time. He
11 provides a detailed description of the tasks of his service pursuant to
12 the preparatory order of the Drina Corps dated 2nd July 1992. He also
13 describes the tasks that were issued to his brigade based on the order
14 for active combat in Operation Krivaja 95. He also mentions his
15 handwritten suggestions to his commander and also suggestions by
16 Momir Nikolic based on his opinion.
17 Finally, he explains the tasks based on the order of the
18 commander of the Bratunac Brigade dated 5 July 1992, which were based on
19 the order of the Drina Corps Command.
20 He received the information on the liberation of Srebrenica on
21 the 11th of July, 1995.
22 Already on the 12th of July 1992 or, rather, 1995 he remembers
23 that a telegram was received from the assistant commander of the
24 Drina Corps for logistics. According to that telegram, vehicles had to
25 be deployed to transport Muslims, those Muslims who had gathered in
1 Potocari and also that the population should be provided with all the
2 available quantities of bread.
3 When he embarked on the implementation of the order, he went to
4 Potocari where he saw General Mladic. General Mladic addressed the
5 people there and told them that they would be transported to Tuzla and
6 that there was no need for them to create havoc, and that was received by
7 the people with approval. He stayed there for an hour to an hour and a
8 half and he did not see that men were separated from the group, nor that
9 they were forbidden from entering the buses. He did not see any force
10 being used against the population, nor did he hear any derogatory word
11 used to refer to those people.
12 That same afternoon, the 12th of July, 1995, he was at the
13 command of the Bratunac Brigade, as well as on the following day, the 3rd
14 [as interpreted] of July 1995. He heard that there had been shooting at
15 the Kravica farm, that a Muslim had attacked a policeman, stole his rifle
16 and killed him. The rest of the police who were providing security
17 responded by opening fire in order to prevent people from fleeing.
18 And, finally, he says that on 14th and 15th July, the Bratunac
19 Brigade was involved in the scouring of the terrain. One part of the
20 unit joined the Zvornik Brigade in its area of responsibility due to the
21 problems with the column of the 28th Division of the BiH army, and on the
22 17th of July, one part of his brigade was deployed in the direction of
24 Your Honour, this was a short summary of
25 Witness Dragoslav Trisic's statement, and now I would like to have a few
1 questions for the witness. I would like to call up D937, paragraph 23.
2 Q. Mr. Trisic, I would like to ask you, in view of your duties, the
3 duties that you discharged as the assistant commander for logistics in
4 the Bratunac Brigade, in addition to the fuel that you received at the
5 parking lot of the Vihor company, did you receive any other equipment,
6 materiel, or supplies that were necessary for the implementation of your
8 A. We received fuel from other sides as well.
9 Q. To the best of your recollection, could you please tell us who
10 you received the fuel from at that time?
11 A. On the 13th of July, in the afternoon, an UNPROFOR truck arrived
12 in -- in the perimeter of the Vihor transport company. Within that
13 perimeter there was a fuel tank which was used by the transport company
14 itself. That truck that had arrived in the Vihor perimeter unloaded some
15 30 tonnes of diesel fuel for buses. Those buses were supposed to
16 transport the Muslim population in the direction of either Tuzla or
17 Kladanj. We received 30 tonnes of diesel fuel from UNPROFOR. Those
18 UNPROFOR units were in Potocari.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you receive additional quantities of fuel from
20 other international organisations on top of the 30 tonnes that you have
21 just mentioned?
22 A. Yes. On the following day, since a lot of fuel was being used
23 for the buses, from UNHCR we received an additional 23.300 litres or 23,3
24 tonnes of diesel.
25 Q. Thank you. And could we please take a look at paragraph 26 of
1 your statement now.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] D937 is its current number.
3 Q. You will see it there before you on the screen, Mr. Trisic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, could we
5 please move onto the next page.
6 Q. You say there that, to the best of your recollection, on the 17th
7 of July, a unit from the Bratunac Brigade with Commander Blagojevic went
8 towards Zepa.
9 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where were you yourself
10 physically from that day, the 17th of July?
11 A. On the 17th of July, we prepared a battalion that is from the
12 area of Avdagina Njiva. It's an area between Bratunac and Kravica and
13 they moved in the direction of Zepa. Together with the commander of the
14 brigade, Colonel Blagojevic, I went on that 17th of July to the area of
16 Q. All the time while your brigade was involved in the area of Zepa,
17 were you there, physically, or did you have other activities as well?
18 A. For the most part, I spent most of that time in the area of Zepa
19 and provided logistics to the units of the Bratunac Brigade. However, in
20 the meantime, sometimes there would be a need for me to go to the command
21 of the brigade in Bratunac to carry out certain tasks or prepare some
22 equipment that could perhaps be provided to the units in the area of
23 Zepa. In principle, I was in that area of Zepa from the beginning until
24 the end, until the brigade returned to the area of Bratunac.
25 Q. Mr. Trisic, thank you for your answers.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
2 once we've uploaded this more legible part of the document, I will take
3 the liberty of going through these questions for the witness once again
4 in relation to what we discussed a while ago.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The document has been uploaded so you could do it
6 right away, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Could the new --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you
9 for -- thank you to the Prosecution for their help so could we now see
10 the document as it is, as it has been uploaded. And now D --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Under what number is it uploaded?
12 MS. EDGERTON: The same 65 ter number 4209.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 4209. Could we have a look.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me. Ms. Stewart advises me D938.
15 Apologies. It's been uploaded under number D938.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That is impossible. D938 is only a number reserved
17 which, Mr. Registrar, if you could ...
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the small a is missing. No?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently it has been replaced under the existing
21 65 ter number. Could we have a look at 65 ter -- oh, we have it already.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 4209, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There we have the better legible copy. And let's
24 just have a look. I --
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Trisic, you see before you now a version that is better or,
2 rather, a better copy of this text. And I would like to ask you to read
3 this, please, and to tell us whether the text as is written here
4 corresponds to what you wrote in your own hand for the purpose of
5 supplies, asking for supplies of materiel for carrying out the orders
6 toward the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
7 A. Yes. Yes, this text that I have on the screen does correspond to
8 the text that I wrote in my own hand, asking for materiel from the
9 command of the Drina Corps.
10 Q. I'm going to end by putting the following question --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You tendered it as associated exhibit so I
12 don't know that you need further -- I mean, the correspond is what
13 everyone is read, is there anything else that needs to be clarified?
14 Because what we have now, we have two pages in English, both more or less
15 the same, I would say, and we have in the original, we have page 1 in
16 e-court is the -- is the typewritten, better legible version. Page 2
17 contains only two numbers. Page 3, 4, and 5 is the handwriting the
18 witness referred to earlier.
19 Any further need to put further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think there are none,
21 Your Honour. After the witness confirmed this, so now I would like to
22 tender this.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number had been reserved already. That
24 was D938.
25 D938 is admitted into evidence.
1 Ms. Edgerton --
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I have thereby
3 finished with the witness. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, would it not be better that we take a
5 break now and that you then have 20 minutes left to start your
6 cross-examination after the break.
7 Or if Mr. Mladic would prefer to go on for another 20 minutes and
8 then adjourn for the day, that would be agreeable to the Chamber as well.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you please switch on your microphone that we
13 can --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just convey
15 General Mladic's position and that is he thinks it's better that we take
16 a break now and that we work for 20 minutes after that break.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That suggestion is followed.
18 The witness may now follow the usher. We'd like to see you back
19 in 20 minutes, and we'll resume at five minutes to 2.00.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 1.36 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trisic, you'll now be cross-examined by
25 Ms. Edgerton. You'll find her to your right. Ms. Edgerton is counsel
1 for the Prosecution.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Trisic.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I'm going to try and keep this as brief as I can, but,
8 unfortunately, it might stretch out into a little bit of time tomorrow.
9 So let's begin.
10 Can you just confirm, first of all, that you stayed on duty in
11 your post in the Bratunac Brigade long after the end of the war. You
12 left in June 1996; right?
13 A. Yes, yes, that's true.
14 Q. Great. Now, I'd just like to amplify some of the evidence you
15 gave in your statement in paragraph 7 about how the brigade was supplied.
16 So my first question is: You can confirm, can't you, that the
17 VRS Main Staff had its own logistics centres; right?
18 A. Yes, yes, they had their own logistics centres, the Main Staff
20 Q. And how it worked is that when your units needed ammunition,
21 fuel, whatever, they would ask the brigade, and then, depending on what
22 was required, the brigade would ask the corps, and the corps would ask
23 the Main Staff; right?
24 A. Yes, yes. The brigade would address the corps command with a
25 request for replenishment.
1 Q. And during the operation you talked about in your written
2 evidence, Krivaja 95, that's what happened, right, the Bratunac Brigade
3 received large quantities of ammunition and materiel through this
4 process; right?
5 A. Yes. Now it's relative whether these were large quantities or
6 not. At any rate, we did not get as much as we had asked for. We always
7 got less. Because there wasn't enough.
8 Q. And so -- and it came through you; right?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. I want to have a quick look at one document so we can get some
11 insight into how this process worked.
12 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter 06029.
13 Q. So in front of you on the screen is a document from
14 Milenko Lazic, who was the operations chief and Deputy Chief of Staff at
15 the Drina Corps, and it's to the VRS Main Staff. And it's dated the 8th
16 of July, 1995. So what he's doing is telling them that considering in
17 the course of the day the brigade has conducted heavy offensive
18 operations in Srebrenica territory, and met with some success, they
19 consumed a large amount of ammunition of all calibres and they needed to
20 replenish their supplies.
21 So he asks for 7.62-millimetre bullets, I think the English
22 translation is rounds but it's bullets, for different weapons. And have
23 a look at the rest of the list so these 20-millimetre and 30-millimetre
24 rounds, that's ammunition for anti-aircraft guns; right?
25 Do you see the mention of 20 and 30-millimetre "metak," in your
1 own language. It's at the bottom of the paragraph of this single
2 document. That refers to ammunition for -- that's anti-aircraft
3 ammunition; right?
4 A. Yes, yes. That is ammunition for two different guns.
5 20 millimetres and 30 millimetres.
6 Q. And these 90-millimetre rounds, that's ammunition for tanks;
8 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
9 Q. And it mentions 122-millimetre D-30 shells. Those are Howitzer
10 rounds that they're talking about in this document, aren't they?
11 A. I think so, that's right.
12 Q. And you got what you asked for, didn't you? Your brigade
13 received these weapons, or pardon me, this ammunition as a result of this
14 request. That's what happened; right?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Your Honours, I
16 think that this leads to confusion because the question has to do with
17 whether the Bratunac Brigade received this and this document is the
18 command of the Drina Corps, so I don't think that the foundation has been
19 laid properly for this question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there has been laid a foundation as to the
21 system; that is, brigade, corps, Main Staff.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. So did you get these -- did you get the ammunition set out in
25 this document?
1 A. No. This is not a request of the brigade. This is a request of
2 the higher command, of the corps command, and it's addressed to the
3 Main Staff of the VRS. So the request has nothing do with the brigade
4 command or my authority.
5 Q. All right. Let's move that off the screen for a moment and go to
6 65 ter number 6306 which also dated from the 8th of July, 1995. Same
7 date as this document.
8 Right. Now, Mr. Trisic, this is a delivery note dated 8th of
9 July, 1995 from military post 7111, Han Pijesak, and that's the
10 Drina Corps Command to your military post. And, Mr. Trisic, it shows
11 that on that date, the Bratunac Brigade received 7.62-millimetre bullets
12 to the tune of 15.000; 7.9-millimetre bullets, 30-millimetre bullets, and
13 it received 122-millimetre D-30 artillery shells.
14 A. Yes, yes, that is what the document says. I cannot say
16 Q. So when you unequivocally denied receiving any of the ammunition
17 that was outlined in the Lazic document from the Drina Corps, that was
18 incorrect, wasn't it? That's confirmed by this document.
19 A. I still maintain that the command of the Bratunac Brigade or I,
20 as assistant commander for logistics, did not ask for materiel or,
21 rather, ammunition, as is stated in the request and as is stated in this
22 material list.
23 An explanation for that could be as follows: During the
24 operation in Bratunac, logistics functioned of the command of the
25 Drina Corps, that is, and --
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we'll have a chance to hear
2 an explanation, perhaps, in your re-direct examination. But let's go
3 back to your response in respect of the first document that Mr. Lazic
4 wrote. I asked you whether or not your brigade received any of the
5 weaponry -- pardon me, the ammunition that was listed in that document,
6 and you said no.
7 65 ter 6306 confirms your brigade received it, so I didn't ask
8 you, with respect, whether or not you have actually requested the
9 ammunition we're talking about. The fact is your brigade received it;
11 A. Our Bratunac Brigade did not need this ammunition, 30-millimetre,
12 100-millimetre bullets, because we did not have these artillery pieces.
13 According to the document, somebody used this in order to have that
14 ammunition delivered in the area of Bratunac. And that is why this is
15 stated, but I maintain that we had not asked for this ammunition or,
16 rather, we did not have artillery pieces for using this kind of
17 ammunition, 30 millimetres, 100 millimetres.
18 Q. With respect, could you answer my question. Did you receive it
19 or not?
20 A. Well, according to the document that is stated that it arrived in
21 the Bratunac Brigade. However, right now, I cannot remember. It was a
22 long time ago. Now, whether it specifically arrived in our storage
23 facilities or those of some other unit and the document says the
24 Bratunac Brigade.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for a clarification on this
2 Sir, I see on the original a signature that looks like yours and
3 on the English version, they said personally received by Major Trisic.
4 Would that not be your signature and are you not the Major Trisic who
5 received this equipment?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom in on the B/C/S, the lower right
8 JUDGE ORIE: And even further. Still further. Yes, there we
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need. I can see
11 everything and I accept that this is my signature. I signed this
12 document. However, I don't remember. It was a long time ago. I don't
13 remember how this document arrived and when. But it was not necessary
14 for the Bratunac Brigade. That kind of ammunition was not needed for the
15 Bratunac Brigade. This is all I'm saying.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I then ask another question.
17 Did you receive this kind -- ammunition on behalf of other units
18 other than the Bratunac Brigade?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably on behalf of another unit
20 of the Drina Corps.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I see here the name and place of receipt is
22 VP 7042 Bratunac. What does that stand for?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom out on the B/C/S.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a military post, the
25 military post of the Bratunac Brigade.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. So that's the brigade of
2 which you were logistics assistant?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Edgerton.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock.
6 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, before we break could I just have
7 these two documents 06209 [sic] and 6306 admitted as Prosecution
8 Exhibits, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned would be?
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 06029 would be Exhibit P7221.
11 And 06306 will be Exhibit P7222.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, if you could just have a look at the
13 transcript and see because there's slight -- the first one, is that 06209
14 or 06029?
15 THE REGISTRAR: 06029.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P7221 and P7222 are admitted into evidence.
17 Mr. Trisic, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
18 tomorrow morning at 9.30. But before you leave this courtroom, I
19 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way
20 with whomever about your testimony, that is, testimony given today, or
21 testimony still to be given tomorrow.
22 If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you. Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
1 Wednesday, the 18th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
2 courtroom, I.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
5 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.