Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33208

 1                           Tuesday, 17 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus

10     Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a

13     preliminary matter.

14             Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  And

16     good morning to everybody in the court.

17             I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that we wanted to have a

18     translation replaced.  It is Blagojevic, Mladen's statement, ID922, and

19     the translation which is valid at the moment is 1D180588.  This should be

20     replaced by a new translation.  The number is 1D191407 [as interpreted].

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The number is ...

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, just -- could you please check on

24     the transcript whether we have the right number:  1D19407?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat, Your Honours.

Page 33209

 1     Mladen Blagojevic's statement is D922.  The current translation is

 2     1D180588 [as interpreted].  This should be replaced by the following

 3     number:  1D191407 [as interpreted].

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, which seems to --

 5             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, can the Prosecution just check it and

 6     revert.  I'm afraid I'm not in a position to right now, but one of my

 7     colleagues --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the usual practice is that better

 9     translations, if they come from a good source, are admitted and may

10     replace the previous one, and then within 48 hours the other party has an

11     opportunity to revisit that matter.

12             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I state that both numbers are not correctly

14     recorded.  The 1D number.  They are one digit in addition to the usual

15     numbers.

16             Please repeat, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

18             [Interpretation] Mladen Blagojevic's statement is D922.  The

19     current translation is doc ID 180 --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel repeat, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D180588.

23             MR. IVETIC:  The doc ID numbers are always eight digits, same as

24     ERN numbers.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 33210

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to be the correct number.  And then it

 2     would be replaced by?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D191408 -- 07.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I repeat that last number:  1D191407.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The -- Mr. Registrar is instructed to replace the

 7     current translation by the newly uploaded one.  And the Prosecution has

 8     an opportunity to revisit the matter within the next 48 hours.

 9             Then, having dealt with that, the witness can be escorted in the

10     courtroom.  And, meanwhile, I use the time to briefly address the -- a

11     matter related to Witness Milan Tutoric.

12             On the 3rd of March of this year, the Defence filed a motion to

13     admit the evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric pursuant to Rule 92 ter and

14     Rule 94 bis of the Rules.  The Chamber recalls that on the 3rd of

15     December last year, the Prosecution objected to the admission of

16     Milan Tutoric's evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter as requested by the

17     Defence in its 19th November motion on the ground, inter alia, that it

18     contained inadmissible evidence and expert opinion from a witness

19     presented as a witness of fact.

20             On the 18th of December, the Chamber invited the Defence to file

21     an additional submission addressing whether the witness would be more

22     appropriately presented as an expert witness.  You can find this at

23     transcript page 30116.  The Defence did not file or present any

24     submission at the deadline set by the Chamber.

25             On the 27th of January, 2015, the Chamber denied, without

Page 33211

 1     prejudice, the Defence motion to admit the evidence of Milan Tutoric

 2     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And this can be found at transcript pages 30674

 5     through 30675.

 6             The Chamber is now seized of the 3rd of March motion to admit the

 7     evidence of Witness Milan Tutoric.  The Chamber understands that the

 8     Defence seeks the admission of his evidence pursuant to two rules, two

 9     different rules.  Unless the Defence wishes to raise further arguments in

10     connection with this matter, the Chamber considers that the Defence is

11     presenting Milan Tutoric as a Rule 94 bis witness and not as a

12     Rule 92 ter witness.

13             Good morning, Mr. Karisik.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Our apologies for continuing with an administrative

16     matter when you entered the courtroom.

17             Mr. Karisik, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

18     the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony,

19     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,

20     and I further urge you to focus your answer very much on the questions

21     that are put to you.

22             Ms. Pack will now continue her cross-examination.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             Can we have, please, 65 ter 04050.

Page 33212

 1                           WITNESS:  MILENKO KARISIK [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pack: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Okay.  You can see this on the screen now.  It's dated the 12th

 5     of July from Dragomir Vasic from the Zvornik CJB.  It's to the Bijeljina

 6     police forces staff and to the public security department.  The public

 7     security department, that's you; yes?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Read it to yourself, the report, please.

10             You done?  Right.  So it's about the reporting on the movement of

11     the column of men, isn't it, the first couple of paragraphs, the second

12     and third paragraphs; yes?

13        A.   I've read the dispatch.  I know what it is about.  In principle,

14     that is.

15        Q.   The last paragraph, please, last sentence, I'll read it out:  "We

16     obtained all the above information from the four men we captured in

17     Konjevic Polje an hour ago (at about 1630 hours)."

18             So you knew the MUP were talking to Muslim prisoners from

19     Srebrenica on the 12th of July; right?

20        A.   I would not have any comment on the dispatch, including this

21     part, because this is a report to the Bijeljina sector which does not

22     imply my authority.  I was not supposed to react to it.  All of these

23     things were happening on the ground and that's where they were dealt

24     with.

25        Q.   Just pausing there --

Page 33213

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you again, Witness.  The question was whether

 2     you had knowledge of this happening, not whether you were in a position

 3     where you had to respond or react.  That's all not the question.

 4             The question is:  Did you know that the MUP were talking to

 5     Muslim prisoners in -- from Srebrenica on the 12th of July.  That's the

 6     question.

 7             Could you please answer that question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time I didn't know that.  At

 9     that time I did not read this dispatch.  I was in Pale.

10             MS. PACK:

11        Q.   You've told us that this report is addressed to you.  You're a

12     professional, outstanding professional police ... policeman, and you

13     don't read a report addressed to you from the Zvornik CJB on the

14     12th July.  Is that right?  You just didn't read it.

15        A.   Not at the time.  I had other commitments.  I was not duty-bound

16     to read all the dispatches which were not sent to me personally but to

17     the entire department.  This is a regular report, and as I can see, it's

18     about people who were taken prisoner.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you didn't read this report

20     because it wasn't addressed to you personally; is that right?  Do I

21     understand that correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. PACK:  I'd tender this, please, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7217, Your Honours.

Page 33214

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MS. PACK:  Can we have, please, P01511.

 3        Q.   Right.  You can look at the top, see who it is addressed to.  And

 4     you will be relieved to see that this report from Kijac dated the

 5     13 July 1995 is addressed to you, head, RS MUP Bijeljina, public security

 6     department, personally; right?  That's you, personally.

 7        A.   Yes, to me personally.  This is what I read on the dispatch.

 8        Q.   You would have read it because it was addressed to you

 9     personally; right?

10        A.   I can't remember whether I did read it personally.  I have to

11     explain why I did not read some of the dispatches, although they --

12     because they covered some things that I was not involved in.  If you will

13     allow me.

14        Q.   Let me just read from the first paragraph of this dispatch.  It's

15     addressed to the RS deputy minister of the interior personally.  That's

16     Kovac; right?

17        A.   Yes.  It says Kovac.

18        Q.   First paragraph.

19        A.   No, it doesn't say Kovac.

20        Q.   The RS minister of the interior personally is Kovac; correct?

21        A.   Yes, at the time.

22        Q.   Thank you.  First paragraph:  "During the night of the 12th to

23     the 13th July 1995, members of the VRS and MUP managed to capture a large

24     number of Muslim soldiers (over 300) in ambushes set up in the general

25     Konjevic Polje area."

Page 33215

 1             I'm going to go down to about two-thirds of the way down this

 2     paragraph and pick it up where it starts:  "Earlier" -- it talks about

 3     the column and then it goes:  "Earlier information regarding their

 4     intentions and the axes of movement towards Kladanj and Tuzla (Buljim,

 5     Pobudje, Konjevic Polje, Kaldrmica, Cerska, Snagovo, Crni Vrh) has been

 6     confirmed many times in interviews with prisoners."

 7             So it's not true, is it, Mr. Karisik, what you said yesterday

 8     that you didn't know about Muslim prisoners from Srebrenica; right?

 9        A.   Whatever I've said so far is the truth.  This is a dispatch sent

10     to the head of department as a regular reporting.  In this case, I was

11     not supposed to act upon this dispatch.  Some other people were supposed

12     to act upon it.  In -- in my case, it was nothing but a regular report on

13     activities.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I -- no one asked you whether you had

15     to act on it.  The question is whether you knew about it.  Now, and if

16     you say, I don't have to act upon it, then at least you should know what

17     it is in it in order to know whether you should or should not act on it.

18     Isn't it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not read a large number of

20     dispatches because I was not at the headquarters.  I was in Pale.  I told

21     you why I did not read them.  I did not read them because there was

22     nothing in them that I should have followed up on.  I dealt with entirely

23     different things at the time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But how would you know that there's nothing in it on

25     which you would have to react if you are not acquainted with the content?

Page 33216

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this specific case when it comes

 2     to this specific this activity and combat, I did not have any authority

 3     or competencies there.  I was dedicated to other tasks, and those tasks

 4     pertained to the Pale staff.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to my question.  But I invite

 6     Ms. Pack to move on.

 7             Please proceed, Ms. Pack.

 8             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   You see, Mr. Karisik, I'm a little confused because in your

10     statement at paragraph 36 you say -- and I'll read it.  You can read it

11     yourself.  It's in e-court in the English at page 12.  Just if you can

12     look at the hard copy, you say:  "I spent most of July 1995 at the RJB

13     headquarters in Bijeljina.  I was also a member of the MUP staff in

14     Pale."

15             So is it right, then, that you were in Bijeljina but not in

16     Bijeljina for purposes of picking up written reports about Srebrenica?

17     Is that about right?

18        A.   You did not understand me well.  Can I clarify?

19             The seat of the public security sector was in Bijeljina.  From

20     the moment the staff was set up in Pale, I spent most of the time first

21     in Pale as a staff member, but occasionally I did go to Bijeljina.

22             On one occasion, I also went to the IKM of the Zvornik Brigade on

23     an order.  In other words, I was in Pale, and I was also in Bijeljina.

24     The situation was dramatic, especially in the Sarajevo area.  I was both

25     in Pale and in Bijeljina.  I can't tell you when I was in any of those

Page 33217

 1     places.

 2        Q.   Let me understand another thing.  You didn't read this report,

 3     this particular report, because you weren't acting on anything concerning

 4     Srebrenica.  That just wasn't something you were interested in.  Is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   That's right.  I was not interested.  I was only interested in

 7     the task I was given by the other staff.  My role had nothing to do with

 8     Srebrenica.  These dispatches are nothing but reports on developments.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you one thing.

10             You earlier said -- you referred to the moment that the staff was

11     set up in Pale.  Could you tell us when exactly that was?  What date.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 20 years, I can't give you

13     the exact date when the Pale staff was set up.  But I would just like to

14     say that it was sometime in June or the end of June.

15             MS. PACK:

16        Q.   That's 1995; right?  The year.  Just to clarify for

17     Their Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I had no --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1995, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm just reading the ...

21             You said:  "From the moment the staff was set up in Pale, I spent

22     most of the time first in Pale as a staff member, but occasionally I did

23     go to Bijeljina."

24             Now your statement reads:  "I spent most of July at the RJB

25     headquarters in Bijeljina."

Page 33218

 1             And you just told me that that headquarters was in Pale, was set

 2     up in June, and that from then on, you spent most of your time in Pale.

 3             Now, I've some difficulties in understanding how in July you can

 4     spend most of your time in Bijeljina and spent most of your time in Pale.

 5     That's slightly unclear to me.

 6             Any explanation for what seems to be a contradiction?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I was in Pale in the second

 8     half of June.  I spent more time in Pale from then on, but during the

 9     Sarajevo offensive, I spent more time at the Pale staff in the Sarajevo

10     sector.

11             In the month of July, which is a long month, I spent more time in

12     the Bijeljina sector headquarters, especially in the second half of July.

13     I -- I'm very glad if this is more clear.  It says in my statement that I

14     spent more time in the Bijeljina sector in July, yes, because July is a

15     long month.  And as for the Pale staff, I was there --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, so earlier you -- what apparently you

17     intended to tell us that you spent -- once the Pale headquarters was set

18     up, you spent most of your time in Pale but only in June and not for

19     July.  That is then ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the first half of the month of

21     July as well.  But it did happen every now and then that I went to the

22     sector for personal and family reasons.  Spending time in a different

23     territory was difficult in terms of logistics.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Pack.

25             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 33219

 1        Q.   Right.  You didn't read reports about Srebrenica.  You didn't act

 2     on anything concerning Srebrenica.

 3             MS. PACK:  Let's look, please, at 65 ter 32266.

 4        Q.   You can see it's to the police forces Command Staff, Pale.  So

 5     that includes you; right?  I'm just asking about the addressee.

 6        A.   I'm just part of the police staff in Pale.  One of the members of

 7     the staff.  Yes.  And this is sent to the staff.

 8        Q.   13 July 1995 it's dated.  You can see that.  And it's from -- and

 9     you just need to look at the top for this.  It's from the State Security

10     Department, 3rd Administration; right?

11        A.   Yes.  The heading of this document says:  RDB, 3rd

12     Administration, Sarajevo.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's look, please -- I am not going to read it all out.

14     Let's look at the first paragraph.  Now it's not about prisoners, this

15     one.

16             So just take your time and look at that.  And you can confirm to

17     me that that's talking about the column of Muslim men.  Just the first

18     paragraph.

19             Okay?

20        A.   I didn't manage to read it.  I've read half of it.  This is a

21     report about the movement of Muslims in that area, but ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, take your time to read it.

23             And, Ms. Pack, show the patience which, in all fairness, should

24     be given.

25             MS. PACK:  Of course, Your Honour.

Page 33220

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.  Once I've read it, I shall

 2     communicate that.  It's rather hard for me to read from here.

 3             Yes, I've read the first part of the dispatch.

 4             MS. PACK:

 5        Q.   Thank you.  It's about the column of Muslim men; right?

 6        A.   Yes, it is about several columns, as far as I could read here.

 7     But these are Muslims who are breaking through towards Tuzla, as far as I

 8     can see.

 9        Q.   Let's look at the last paragraph, please, on that page.  And it's

10     page 2 of the English.  I'll read it out.  Just pay attention:

11             "The latest information obtained from the RDB shows that a Muslim

12     group led by Zulfo Tursunovic this evening arrived in the general sector

13     of Snagovo and established radio communication with members of the

14     so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who are in the sector of

15     Kalesija; hence, it is expected that they engage in joint combat

16     operations ..."

17             And it goes on.  And then I'll take it up at the penultimate

18     sentence which is -- we can just go over the page, please, in the B/C/S

19     to page 2.  Penultimate sentence of the dispatch, just where it starts:

20             "At the same time the second group of Muslim saboteurs led by

21     Ibrahim Mandzic, aka Mrki, is allegedly in the sector of Gornja Kamenica

22     and moving along the same road along which Tursunovic's group had

23     passed."

24             And it goes on.

25             You received this report, you, Milenko Karisik?

Page 33221

 1        A.   No, Milenko Karisik did not receive that.  It was the staff of

 2     the police force in Pale that received that but I am part of the staff.

 3        Q.   As part of the staff, did you personally receive it, did you read

 4     it?

 5        A.   I cannot recall.  I personally did not receive it for sure.  It

 6     arrives at the duty service there, and if -- if it's something alarming,

 7     then the staff should inform the minister who was the only one who has

 8     the power to act.  Since these forces that were at Srebrenica were under

 9     the command of --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, you are not invited to expand on

11     who should have received it and should have read it.  The simple question

12     was, is whether you received it.  Your answer was no, which I take it

13     also means that you haven't read it.

14             Next question.

15             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, I tender this report, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P7218, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             MS. PACK:  Thank you.  Can we have, please, 65 ter 04086.

20        Q.   Now, this is a document dated the 13th of July, and it's to

21     Dragomir Vasic.  He's the chief of the Zvornik CJB.  And it's type-signed

22     from the RJB head, Milenko Karisik; right?

23        A.   Yes.  The name, Milenko Karisik, is typewritten, but my signature

24     is not there, so it is the services of the sector that sent this, but

25     that would be it.  It's from the sector.

Page 33222

 1        Q.   Well, let's just see, shall we, what it says.  I'll read the

 2     first paragraph:

 3             "According to the information available to the RDB, the State

 4     Security Department, a Muslim group led by Zulfo Tursunovic, former

 5     commander of one of the Muslim brigades from Srebrenica, is currently in

 6     the Snagovo sector ..."

 7             It goes on.

 8             And then just taking the penultimate sentence:

 9             "Another group of Muslim extremists led by Ibrahim Mandzic is

10     reportedly in the Gornja Kamenica sector (in the interspace between ..."

11     and it goes on.

12             And it takes up:"... and advancing along the same route

13     previously used by Tursunovic's group."

14             So you see it repeats the content of the previous document that I

15     showed you from the State Security Department about the movement of these

16     two groups in the column of Muslim men from Srebrenica.  Can you see

17     that; right?

18        A.   What I see here -- well, yes I see that --

19        Q.   Sir, you've answered my question.  Thank you.  So you,

20     Milenko Karisik, you, the head of the RJB, received reports about

21     Srebrenica and acted on reports about Srebrenica; right?

22        A.   I am head of the RJB, and you said that I was head of the RDB, if

23     I heard you correctly.  So I am head of the RJB, and from my sector, the

24     dispatch was conveyed to the centre, Vasic, about the information that

25     the RDB had sent to us.  So this is a regular thing, and that is

Page 33223

 1     necessary.

 2             MS. PACK:  I'd like to tender this in evidence, please,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P7219, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MS. PACK:  Can we have, please, P2117.

 8        Q.   Just to clarify, it's a regular thing, is it, that reports go out

 9     under your name without you having any knowledge of the contents?

10     Dispatches go out under your name?  It's a regular thing, was it, in the

11     RJB?

12        A.   Yes, that's what I wanted to say.  Only a dispatch that I sign is

13     one that is sent from me personally.  Dispatches from the sector, well,

14     are sent further on to those who are proper addressees.  In this case, it

15     was the RJB centre, Zvornik.

16        Q.   It's a teletyped document.  They're never signed.

17        A.   I think that the original document has to bear the signature of

18     the person who is sending it.

19        Q.   Let's look at this document that's up on the screen.  It's P2117,

20     dated the 13th July 1995.  And it's to the Pale police staff of which you

21     were part; right?

22             Now I would like -- right?  Is that correct?

23        A.   I'm sorry, could you repeat that question?  I didn't understand

24     that you were asking me something.

25        Q.   This is to the Pale police staff of which you were part.  You

Page 33224

 1     were part of the Pale police staff, and this is addressed to the Pale

 2     police staff.  Right?

 3        A.   Yes, I was a member of the staff in Pale.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's look, please, at the penultimate paragraph on the

 5     page in the B/C/S, and it goes over -- it's over on page 2 in the English

 6     translation.  It's the second page on page 2 [sic].

 7             You can see this is from Ljubisa Borovcanin; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, down here, it says:  Deputy Commander, Ljubisa Borovcanin,

 9     yes.  Of the special police brigade, yes.

10        Q.   Are you quite sure?  Because he hasn't signed it personally.

11     Right?  It's on the teleprinter, so it wouldn't be signed.  Is that

12     right?

13        A.   Well, I'm not a big expert for communications, but I cannot

14     confirm what these documents that are before me mean, being that they are

15     not bearing signatures of persons who are sending them.  I think that

16     each and every document that is sent has to bear the signature of the

17     person who is sending it.  But I accept that this is a document that did

18     exist.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, in all fairness to the witness, if you ask

20     him, Do you see that Mr. Borovcanin, his name is under it, if the witness

21     then says, Yes, I see that, answering your question, then to say, Are you

22     really sure?  Then you're shifting your subject of your questioning.

23     Because you're not asking the witness any further whether he sees that

24     the name of Borovcanin is under it, but you, without clearly announcing

25     that, you're shifting to whether it was sent by Borovcanin, which is a

Page 33225

 1     different question.

 2             In all fairness to the witness, you shouldn't do that.

 3             And a second guidance, if I may give that to you, your questions

 4     will not lose strength if you use your voice in such a way that no one

 5     could even think of it being used perhaps a bit too strongly, or that it

 6     could never come to anyone's mind that the tone of your voice is having

 7     some intimidating effect.

 8             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MS. PACK:

11        Q.   If you read this paragraph, the second paragraph:

12             "In the night between the 12 and 13 July 1995, this armed Muslim

13     group launched an attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  In the

14     combat that lasted several hours and which continued throughout today,

15     the enemy sustained a loss of 200 soldiers who were killed, and we

16     captured, or had surrender to us, around 1500 Muslim soldiers.  The

17     number increases by the hour."

18             So you knew that the MUP were taking large numbers of prisoners

19     on the 13 July; right.

20        A.   I'm not sure that I read the dispatch for a simple reason:  I

21     cannot remember.  Because Ljubisa Borovcanin is directly under the

22     minister of the interior, not the sector.  The special brigade is

23     directly under the authority of the minister of the interior.

24        Q.   So just to fully understand your evidence:  Borovcanin knew about

25     the Muslim prisoners; Vasic knew about the Muslim prisoners; Kovac knew

Page 33226

 1     about the Muslim prisoners; Dragan Kijac knew about the Muslim prisoners;

 2     but you, you didn't know anything.  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, I didn't know.  Because I do not have the authority to act

 4     because I was dealing with my own assignments, things that I had been

 5     ordered to do.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've told us that several times.  It's

 7     sufficient you say you didn't know, and why you didn't know is sometimes

 8     relevant; but here, most important, is that you say you didn't know.  And

 9     that dispatches sent under your name, you had no knowledge of their

10     content.  Is that -- at least for the one that we saw, that's true, isn't

11     it?

12             Yes, you had no knowledge of what was sent and what we saw was

13     sent under your name?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly what I

15     personally saw because it's been over 20 years.  But for some reasons

16     that you did not exactly allow me to speak about, I did not follow this

17     because it's outside my line of work, and I had a specific task as head

18     of the sector to do some other work in the staff in Pale, not to deal

19     with Srebrenica.

20             And I also --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've told us that now five times.  So to

22     say that we didn't allow you to explain that, we allowed you to briefly

23     explain.  You did so.  Let's move on.

24             MS. PACK:

25        Q.   Mr. Karisik, the evidence in this case is that the public

Page 33227

 1     security policemen were involved in escorting the convoy of thousands of

 2     Muslim men - prisoners - from Bratunac to Zvornik on the 14th of July.

 3     Is that something else that you didn't know about at the time?

 4        A.   At that time, I didn't know that because I did not have authority

 5     to act.  The unit is resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska in

 6     combat action, and they receive tasks on the spot there, and then they're

 7     outside the command structure of the Ministry of Interior, and they also

 8     are not under my authority then.

 9        Q.   Did it surprise you on the 16th of July, since you weren't

10     interested or doing anything related to Srebrenica, when Kovac ordered

11     you to go to Zvornik to meet with Pandurevic?  That come as a surprise?

12        A.   I'm not surprised by any order received from the minister.  It is

13     my obligation to carry out orders received from the minister.  He is my

14     superior.

15        Q.   Meet Dragomir Vasic at the Zvornik CJB.  He briefed you about the

16     situation and problems concerning Zvornik.  That's in your statement.  Is

17     that right?  Your evidence.

18        A.   Yes, that's right, correct.

19        Q.   He sent written reports on the 12th and 13th July, and he's met

20     with -- he was at meeting on 13th of July in Bratunac with Beara and

21     Deronjic, and they talked about the plan to murder Muslim men.  That's

22     the evidence in this case.  You didn't talk about that, the planned

23     execution of Muslim men?

24        A.   Absolutely not.

25        Q.   And at the Zvornik Brigade forward command post you met

Page 33228

 1     Vinko Pandurevic and you spent several hours with him.  That's right,

 2     isn't it?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Can we have a reference for "that it is evidence in

 5     this case" of the discussions between Colonel Beara and Vasic.  Because,

 6     in talking with my colleague, I do not recall the same having been led in

 7     this case.

 8             MS. PACK:  Yes, I'll give the reference.  It's M. Nikolic, T11952

 9     to 11953.  And I said he was present at a meeting at the SDS office in

10     Bratunac on the 13 July when Beara and Deronjic talked about the plan to

11     murder the Muslim men.  That's for transcript references.  Thank you.

12        Q.   We'll just go to Vinko Pandurevic, please.

13             So just to pick up the question that you didn't have the chance

14     to answer.  It was that you met Vinko Pandurevic at the Zvornik Brigade

15     forward command post and sent several hours with him there, is that

16     right, on the 16th July 1995?

17        A.   Yes, that is right.  I'm a direct participant there and it is

18     easier for me to answer.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Pack, you gave a reference, the page

20     reference, with respect to Momir Nikolic.  Could you repeat that.  It was

21     not recorded.  And for the sake of Mr. Ivetic, this would be helpful to

22     repeat that.

23             MS. PACK:  It was transcript reference T11952 to 11953.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

Page 33229

 1        Q.   Pandurevic also briefed you about the situation and problems in

 2     Zvornik?

 3        A.   I don't remember, not particularly, except for this enormous

 4     column of Muslim soldiers that is moving.  Nothing, in particular.

 5        Q.   So he talked about the situation related to the column.  That's

 6     what you say?

 7        A.   Yes.  I'm saying that he told me that this large column had taken

 8     a policeman prisoner.  And that is the reason why I came on orders from

 9     the minister to Pandurevic to his forward command post.

10             MS. PACK:  Can we look, please, quickly at P01497.

11        Q.   It's in manuscript and I hope can you read it.  We see it's dated

12     15th of July, 1995 and it's an interim combat report to the Drina Corps

13     Command.  And over the page, you'll see -- if we can just quickly look

14     over the page, you'll see it's from Vinko Pandurevic, the commander.

15             We can just look briefly at pages 2 in both the English

16     translation and the B/C/S before reverting back.

17             It's from, you can see written there, Vinko Pandurevic; correct?

18        A.   Yes, I can see it is in handwriting, and it says:  Commander,

19     Vinko Pandurevic.  That's the signature.

20        Q.   And we'll stay on page 2 in the B/C/S and go back to page 1 in

21     the English.  I want to look at the fourth paragraph in the English.  And

22     in the B/C/S, it's the second and third paragraphs on that page 2.

23     English, it's fourth and fifth.

24             I'll read them.  It says:

25             "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners

Page 33230

 1     distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as

 2     obligations of security and restoration of the terrain?

 3             "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer, as

 4     it has neither the material nor other resources.  If no one takes on this

 5     responsibility, I will be forced to let them go."

 6             So that's the report that Pandurevic sends the day before he

 7     meets with you, spends several hours with you in Zvornik.

 8             My question:  When he talked to you that day, on the 16th July,

 9     did he not say, One of the problems in Zvornik, in addition to the

10     column, fighting the column, is the fact that the VRS are busy executing

11     and burying prisoners, and they've been doing this for three days.  It

12     has been a burden for us.

13             Did he not say that?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I object.  That does not arise from

16     the document and the section that the counsel has cited.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there a suggestion that this is from the

18     document?

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

20             MS. PACK:  I didn't say this was from the document.

21             MR. IVETIC:  It says:  So that's that report Pandurevic sends,

22     and then she asked --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  "And then my question:  When he talked to

24     you on that day."  That is, there is a relation between the document and

25     the question, but there's no suggestion in the question itself that that

Page 33231

 1     is what the document says.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Then it's a compound question and it's confusing.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I fully agree with that.

 4             Could you please split it up.

 5             MS. PACK:

 6        Q.   When you met Pandurevic and you spent several hours with him on

 7     the 16th July, did he mention that the VRS had been executing and burying

 8     prisoners for three days?

 9        A.   No.  We didn't discuss that, and I never reported on that either.

10             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, I see it's time for a break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It is time for a break.  We'll take a break of 20

12     minutes.

13             We'd like to see you back, Mr. Karisik, after the break.  You may

14     follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you on schedule, as far as time is concerned?

17             MS. PACK:  Yes, absolutely.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That means how much time would you still need?

19             MS. PACK:  I think it's about 15 minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.

21             MS. PACK:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you even stay within your time

23     estimates.

24             We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

Page 33232

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, just to say I didn't realise that I

 4     had -- apologies for interrupting.

 5             Just to say I didn't realise that I had 45 minutes of my allotted

 6     time before we broke, and I'm not going to take all of that, but I will

 7     be more than 15 minutes, I hope less than half an hour, but I didn't

 8     realise I had so much time when you asked the question.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We knew that.

10             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not so much time, therefore, I'll use part of

12     most of it, but what do I really need to put the questions that are

13     relevant for us and then to see whether that can be done in as little

14     time as possible.  That's the two different approaches.

15             MS. PACK:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the second one is the one the Chamber

17     prefers.  But please move on.

18             MS. PACK:  I will be as quick as I can and that is my intention,

19     of course, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Not too quick.  Not too quick, Ms. Pack.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             MS. PACK:

23        Q.   Witness, Mr. Karisik, can we look, please, at 65 ter 19565.

24             Now, just as we're looking at this, can you confirm, on the face

25     of it, that this is a document dated the 16th of July from a member of

Page 33233

 1     the police forces Command Staff in Pale?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if we look at the substance, the first paragraph says, I'll

 4     read it out:

 5             "Please be informed that today at around 1500 hours we were

 6     informed by Assistant Karisik about negotiations between the command of

 7     the VRS and enemy forces from Srebrenica and the 2nd Turkish Corps from

 8     Tuzla on the passage of the Turkish troops through a part of the

 9     territory of Zvornik municipality in the direction of Kalesija.  The

10     command of the VRS is represented in the negotiations by Colonel

11     Vinko Pandurevic ..."

12             And it goes on.

13             Now, Assistant Karisik, that's you; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's me.

15        Q.   You informed the police forces Command Staff by 1500 hours about

16     Pandurevic's negotiations with the ABiH; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, I'm sure that after the end of my mission with Pandurevic, I

18     had an obligation to report to the staff, and the dispatch actually

19     confirms that I complied with that obligation.

20             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, I tender this.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7220, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P7220 is admitted.

24             MS. PACK:

25        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 62 - you have it in front of

Page 33234

 1     you - in the English, in e-court, it's page 18.  You've talked about it.

 2     You say you were aware that Pandurevic opened the corridor on

 3     16th July but you don't recall if you had direct contact with the

 4     president - that's Karadzic - about this.  Is that your evidence?

 5        A.   Yes, I didn't have any contacts with President Karadzic.

 6        Q.   Well, you've been asked about this before.

 7             MS. PACK:  And could we please have up 65 ter 32252.  And we

 8     want, please, page 12.

 9        Q.   And I'm asking to have shown here the transcript of your

10     testimony in the Karadzic case.  And it's in English, so I'll read it to

11     you slowly.  From line 14.

12             "Q.  ... in your statement at paragraph 62, you say you don't

13     remember if you had direct contact with Mr. Karadzic that day.

14     Mr. Karadzic in this trial stated at 26265, lines 1 to 4:

15             "'Thank you.  Did you perhaps find out that Mr. Karisik phoned me

16     to inform me of this move of Pandurevic's?'

17             "Does that help you remember that you called and spoke with

18     Mr. Karadzic directly?

19             "A.  This, unfortunately not.  My technical capacities were very

20     poor.  I was in a mountainous area and I wasn't really able to sit down

21     and have a conversation with Mr. Karadzic, truly."

22             Now, is that your truthful testimony, because you've told us you

23     contacted the Pale police forces Command Staff that day before 1500

24     hours.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I would object now that's she doing a compound

Page 33235

 1     question.  If she's going to present a part of the transcript and ask if

 2     that is truthful, that's one question.  Everything else that comes later

 3     is confusing.

 4             MS. PACK:

 5        Q.   Is that your truthful testimony?

 6        A.   When it comes to reporting to Mr. Karadzic, yes.

 7        Q.   But it's right --

 8        A.   It is truthful.

 9        Q.   It is right, isn't it, that you were able to - and did - report

10     to the Pale police forces staff before 1500 hours on 16th July, like we

11     just saw?

12        A.   No, I can't remember the time.  I believe it was after 1500

13     hours.  They also say "around 1500 hours."  It was not before that.  I

14     first needed to report to the minister through the staff about my

15     mission, what's -- what its nature was, and that it wasn't completed

16     successfully.  This is not contained in the dispatch.  I didn't contact

17     the staff from the forward command post.  I only did it when I was able

18     to do it, when I got hold of some communications means.  This is the

19     whole truth.

20             I could not report to President Karadzic from the forward command

21     post, neither do I remember that I ever did that.  There was no need or

22     obligation for me to report to him.

23        Q.   That wasn't the question where you reported from.  The question

24     was whether you reported.

25        A.   I don't understand your question.  Reported to whom?

Page 33236

 1        Q.   Karadzic.  This is what you were asked in the Karadzic case.  You

 2     said you had no direct contact with Karadzic that day.  That's the

 3     question.  Not where you contacted Karadzic from but whether you

 4     contacted Karadzic.  You understand?  Right?

 5        A.   Now I understand your question.  My answer is no.

 6             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, could we please have P01338.

 7             Actually, this is being -- is under seal so if it could not be

 8     broadcast.

 9        Q.   Now, you've been shown this before.  It's dated the 16th of July,

10     1995.  And it's an intercept of a conversation between the Main Staff

11     duty officer and General Mladic which takes place at 1615 hours.  And

12     I'll read it.  Starts:  "Good day, General, sir.

13             "Well, it's like this."

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. PACK:  I'm sorry.

16        Q.   "Good day, General, sir."

17             Continues:  "Well, it's like this.  I've just sent a telegram to

18     Toso.  Well, the president called a short while ago and said that he had

19     been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic has arranged passage for the

20     Muslims over to that territory.  Since I have no communication with him,

21     I asked the duty officer to urgently connect me with him; to have him

22     send me a telegram with that information and not to do anything without

23     authorisation until he receives our answer.  Now I'm waiting for them to

24     call me because Pandurevic hasn't called for the last four ..."

25             And it continues:  "Yes, of course.  But, but there are both

Page 33237

 1     fighters and civilians.

 2             And then it goes on:  "Nobody is playing around, that's just the

 3     information we got."

 4             And then it goes on.

 5             Karisik, that's you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does this refresh your memory?  You were in Zvornik to inform the

 8     president what was going on.

 9        A.   No, that's not correct.  It is correct that I was in Zvornik but

10     it is not correct that I reported to President Karadzic.

11        Q.   I'm going to ask you about one more document; it's P01586.

12             This is another document you've seen before.  It's dated the 16th

13     of January, 1996.  It's addressed to the RJB public security department

14     head.  That's you, isn't it still, in January 1996?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And also, as we can see, to the Main Staff of the VRS sector for

17     intelligence and security, intelligence administration (for information).

18     You can see that?

19        A.   This is not very legible, but still I can read it.

20             There's some yellow stains all over the document.  At least in my

21     case.

22        Q.   Well, I'll read it out to make it easier.

23             First paragraph:  "Please find enclosed the full text of a

24     dispatch from the Main Staff VRS Main Staff sector for intelligence and

25     security, intelligence administration ..."

Page 33238

 1             And if goes on:  "To the Ministry of Interior, the minister

 2     personally."

 3             Goes on:  "Considering that we have a group of members in the

 4     10th Sabotage Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on a list of

 5     individuals who have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you

 6     order the Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first and last

 7     names to these individuals, or with different first and last names for

 8     Serbian nationals, there are 8 ... such individuals."

 9             We go over the page in the English, we see that quoted dispatch

10     is from Chief Colonel Petar Salapura.

11             You are remembered -- and this is addressed to you, of course, to

12     act on the request by the VRS Main Staff signed the minister,

13     Dragan Kijac.

14             Just a question about Kijac.  Kijac, who had been your

15     counterpart, head of the DB in July 1995, was by then minister; right?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   So the minister orders you to issue fake IDs?

18        A.   Yes.  The minister sends to the sector an order to issue

19     documents for the intelligence service of the VRS.  This is part of

20     co-operation between two organs or two institutions in Republika Srpska.

21     My role was to forward this to the competent administration so that the

22     obligation could be complied with.

23        Q.   And, indeed, the obligation was complied with; right?

24        A.   I cannot confirm as I sit here what the ultimate outcome was.  I

25     did not get any feedback as how much was accomplished.  But as head of

Page 33239

 1     the -- of that department, I obviously issued an order for the minister's

 2     request to be followed through.  That was my obligation.

 3        Q.   You know that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment executed

 4     Muslim men at Branjevo farm in July 1995.

 5        A.   I didn't know who members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment were or

 6     what they did.  I didn't have that information.  That was not the nature

 7     of my knowledge at the time.

 8        Q.   The evidence in this case from one member of the 10th Sabotage

 9     Detachment who admitted taking part in mass executions is that he was

10     indeed issued a fake ID.  You, head of the public security department of

11     The MUP of Republika Srpska, were protecting these men from The Hague

12     Tribunal; right?

13        A.   My answer is no.  I just carried out a procedure that is based on

14     the law, that is lawful, from the minister of the interior who had

15     received a request.  What that is customary co-operation between services

16     that a certain number of IDs, I mean, we didn't really take into account

17     who they were, what they were.  We weren't interested in that.  I don't

18     know that now either what it was that they did or individual, et cetera.

19     My professional duty was to forward the request and to have this

20     co-operation between the two organs, the two institutions carried out.

21     Of course, there were records kept and in that administration there is a

22     certain procedure as to how this is supposed to be done.  So it is

23     possible to check what was carried out and to what extent and whether all

24     of it had been carried out at all.  Afterward, I did not deal with the

25     question of implementation.  For me it was a routine thing to carry out

Page 33240

 1     an order from the minister.

 2             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Pack.

 4             I have one question in relation to the last matter that was

 5     addressed by Ms. Pack.  You're emphasizing your obligations.  Do you feel

 6     you have any obligation not to obstruct justice to be rendered by a court

 7     which was founded by the Security Council?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time I was not thinking

 9     about this, what you are referring to now.  I didn't know about that

10     either.  I wasn't interested in the names or who they were.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But it was clear from this document, I think - but

12     tell me if you understand that otherwise - that it was to shield them

13     from prosecutions in The Hague.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't want to comment on

15     Salapura's dispatch and the intelligence service of the military

16     security.  We probably as a different organ of the Ministry of Interior

17     acted and that is customary co-operation.  That's what matters to me.

18             Now as for the rest, I really cannot say anything about that, and

19     I didn't think about that.  I'm a professional.  That is what my powers

20     were and I did that.  Of course, in that administration, there is a

21     special procedure, so if there is a problem, then the true identity can

22     be established and so on, but that is a question for a different witness.

23     As head of the sector, I carried out the minister's order and that is

24     that, and I cannot give any further comment.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You're moving away from my question.

Page 33241

 1             My question is whether your obligations not to obstruct justice,

 2     which was established by the Security Council, would not prevail over

 3     your duty to obey orders from your minister, especially if those orders

 4     clearly seem to allude to the action required by you -- required to be

 5     taken by you would be instrumental to such obstruction of justice.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that I am carrying out

 7     the procedure of the Ministry of Interior and enforcing the law.  That is

 8     my obligation on the basis of the law.  I did not think about any further

 9     implications, and there was no need to do that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, you say, I thought about

11     the law, which you followed, and you didn't think about the law which may

12     have imposed obligations upon you as well, but you just did not think

13     about that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the term that

15     you used "promislijo"; "thought."  I said that I carried out the orders

16     issued to me by the minister and that is in accordance with the law and

17     the rules in my ministry, and nothing more than that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of possibly obligations that are

19     imposed under international law?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, at that point in time, no.

21     Obviously.  But as head of the public security sector, I'm duty-bound to

22     carry out the procedures of work of the Ministry of Interior.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you've told us that now three times.

24             Last question:  Were you aware of the existence of this Tribunal

25     in early 1996, January 1996?

Page 33242

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I was aware of

 2     that.  I cannot remember.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This -- this last answer takes me back to

 4     questions that were put to you in relation to paragraph 62 of your

 5     statement.

 6             Today, I think you clearly testified that you had not directly

 7     contacted President Karadzic about the corridor, the column of Muslims

 8     moving out.  Is that well understood?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in your statement, you do not say you had no

11     contact.  In your statement, you say:  "I do not recall if I had direct

12     contact."

13             What made you change your mind in relation to what is found in

14     your statement?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand in what way I

16     changed my mind?  What do you mean changed my mind?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll explain to you.  If I say, I don't recall

18     whether I was at location A yesterday, that means it could be yes; it

19     could be no.  If I say, I was not at location A yesterday, that's only

20     one possibility.  That is, I wasn't there.

21             Now, in your statement, you leave it open whether you had or

22     whether you had not direct contact with President Karadzic about the

23     corridor because you say, I don't recall if I had.

24             Today you say, I had not, which is not the same.

25             Do you have any explanation for this change as I just explained

Page 33243

 1     it to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my paragraph 62, I said that I

 3     do not remember having contacted President Karadzic.  That is what I

 4     confirm today as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Let me show you --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not contact --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not the same.  If you don't understand that,

 8     then there are other instances where you also said, I don't remember, and

 9     then later say it didn't happen, which is not the same.

10             I had hoped you would understand it.  If you do not, then that --

11     we'll have to consider that when evaluating your evidence.

12             If you have no further explanation and if you say it's just the

13     same, then we'll move on and I'll give an opportunity to Mr. Ivetic to

14     put further questions to you.

15             Oh, but perhaps first Judge Moloto may have one or more

16     questions.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to follow up on some of the issues that

18     Judge Orie raised on the question of this order from the minister.

19             Within your duties in the department where you were working, was

20     it also so that you were obliged to carry out orders which were unlawful?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And -- you have answered me.  Thank you so much.

23             You do not see this order as unlawful?  To order somebody to make

24     fake IDs to people?  Isn't that unlawful?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the request of one

Page 33244

 1     security service, one organ, that is, to another, is legal legitimate and

 2     lawful, and we are duty-bound to respond to that request for co-operation

 3     that is based on the law.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  What I'm asking you is the content of

 5     the order that you're co-operating on.  You say it's unlawful, is it not?

 6     Is it not unlawful to ask that fake IDs be issued to people?  I'm not

 7     asking about co-operation with other departments.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not unlawful if the Ministry

 9     of the Interior is responding to requests for co-operation from the

10     intelligence service of the Army of Republika Srpska.  These are not

11     unlawful doings.  This is something that exists anywhere in the world,

12     that kind of co-operation.  The issuing of such documents is not

13     unlawful.  On our side, we do not go into who they are, et cetera.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you there.  You say it's not unlawful to

15     respond.  I'm not asking you to respond.  I'm saying is it not unlawful

16     to order that fake IDs be issued?  That's the question.  I'm not talking

17     about your co-operation.  I'm talking about the order.

18             To order fake IDs to be issued:  Is that lawful?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is our obligation to do that for

20     a different organ, that a certain number of IDs and number of documents

21     should be done.  I don't think that is unlawful.  I think that all

22     security services in the world do that for individuals for whom it is

23     necessary to do that.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you.  You

25     either want to answer my question or you don't want to answer it.

Page 33245

 1             My question has nothing to do with what co-operation you're

 2     obliged to give.  I'm asking you is an order by a superior that is --

 3     says issue fake IDs is that a lawful order in your understanding of the

 4     law?  If you -- it's either yes or no, and I realise that you are not

 5     answering my question, and I stop at that point.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I would direct you to page 37, line 2 where the

 7     witness answered your question.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 37 --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  37, line 2:  I don't think that it is unlawful.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's talking about something different,

11     Mr. Ivetic, with all due respect.  He starts by saying:  "It is our

12     obligation to do that for a different organ that a certain number of IDs

13     and a number of documents should be done.  I don't think it's unlawful."

14             I'm not asking him about whether he should do something.  I'm

15     asking him about whether the order he received is lawful.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And in my position, Your Honours, he has answered

17     that by saying, I don't think that is unlawful, I think that

18     all [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm telling you he

20     hasn't answered me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  There's some ambiguity there in what the witness

22     says is unlawful.

23             Do I understand your answer to be that not under all

24     circumstances ordering to issue a fake ID is considered to be unlawful?

25             Did you hear my question or did you not?

Page 33246

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Translation is still going, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that the order of the

 4     minister is not unlawful.  That is my only comment.  I have no other

 5     comment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- that's an answer to the question.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, any further questions for the witness?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

10        Q.   If we can stay with this document and this topic for the time

11     being, let's take a step backwards in time to the time-period before the

12     war when the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

13     jurisdiction over the entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In your opinion

14     with such an order to have fake IDs issued to intelligence personnel,

15     would that have been a type of order that the SFRY -- SFR

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina would have undertake prior to the war?

17             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, that's a very leading question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.  Would you please rephrase your question.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If I could have assistance I don't see where it is

20     leading when taking back to a time-period prior to the war.  Such

21     questions to establish a time-period are permitted in direct examination

22     according to my understanding of trial procedure.

23             MS. PACK:  I didn't understand it to be a question about time, I

24     must say.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I won't respond to that.

Page 33247

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clearly hinting at what you expect to be the

 2     answer.  In that respect, it is leading.  Please rephrase your question.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Do you know if such fake IDs would have been issued in due course

 5     by the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to the outbreak of the war?

 6        A.   My answer and my opinion is yes.  Because this is customary

 7     co-operation in all countries of the world regarding changes of IDs with

 8     different names and surnames, and that is done by all police forces in

 9     the world.  In the war, before the war, after the war, to this day.

10        Q.   And now this order, if we can go back to the first page in

11     English, and if we could scroll up to the top in the B/C/S, this is dated

12     in the year 1996.

13             Sir, do you know when the Law on Co-operation with the ICTY

14     Tribunal was enacted on either -- on the territory of Republika Srpska?

15        A.   I cannot say exactly, but I think it is after that.

16        Q.   As --

17        A.   I cannot remember exactly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the parties certainly are in a

19     position to agree on whether a certain law was enacted.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would offer a stipulation for the Prosecution to

21     concur that it was enacted in 2001.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from that we don't have do deal with that

23     court at this moment.  I cannot imagine the parties cannot agree when a

24     certain act was adopted.

25             MR. IVETIC:  But Your Honours' questions to the witness talks

Page 33248

 1     about unlawfulness of an order talks about co-operation with the ICTY;

 2     therefore, it is germane to this testimony.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, there is more than domestic laws having

 4     been adopted.  If it was as simple as that, then we might perhaps have an

 5     easier job.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   If we can move to another topic, you were asked about a number of

 9     dispatches -- or about dispatches that were sent to your office.  One of

10     which was P7217.  And I want to ask you, sir, based upon your position

11     within the public security sector in 1995, do you have an estimate of the

12     number of documents, dispatches, or other reports that would be addressed

13     to your position as one of the recipients, among others in the MUP, from

14     across the country in the normal course of business in a day, a week, or

15     any time-period that you can assist us with?

16        A.   Yes, I understand what you're saying.  The RJB is the largest

17     structure, the most numerous one, with the largest subject matter dealt

18     with within the Ministry of Interior.  When the police is used in combat

19     operations, there was an enormous number of dispatches arriving every day

20     and the administrations reacted in accordance with their authority and

21     carried out work in the domain of publish law and order, the

22     crime-prevention police, checking border crossings, traffic, protecting

23     people and their property is our constitutional duty otherwise as well

24     and --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir you were asked for a number, an estimate of

Page 33249

 1     the number, not describing the whole structure.  How many per day or per

 2     week.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say exactly what that

 4     number is.  Maybe the analytics department could say about that period,

 5     but the security subject matter dealt with by the ministry involved

 6     great -- a great many dispatches from Trebinje to Banja Luka.  So the

 7     chief of communications would have to --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have answered the question.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Can I proceed, Your Honour, or do you have anything?

10             If we can now look at P3009.

11        Q.   This was shown to you during cross-examination.

12             This document from Momcilo Mandic is dated the 31st of March,

13     1992.  Was the special police unit divided and split already by this

14     date, the date of this document?

15        A.   No.  The date of the 27th of March, 1992 is being referred to

16     here.  The unit disbanded in the evening on the 4th of April, 1992.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, did this dispatch have immediate effect upon the

18     special police unit, or were any additional steps required to be received

19     by the special police unit?

20        A.   At that level then in this joint unit, I did not receive this

21     dispatch personally.  Perhaps it was sent to the commander of the unit,

22     but he didn't show it to me.  And this dispatch -- well, quite a bit of

23     time went by.  I've already referred to the dates.  And we stayed in this

24     joint formation and obviously this was not addressed to us on the basis

25     of the date when this was sent.

Page 33250

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, at transcript pages 33161 and 33163, you were

 2     directed to your statement talking about the agreement on the splitting

 3     of the MUP and how it was in keeping with the Lisbon-Cutileiro Plan.

 4     Let's first talk in terms of the Cutileiro Plan.  What was your

 5     understanding of how the Cutileiro Plan applied to what was going on in

 6     the MUP at that time, the Republic of Bosnia MUP at that time?

 7        A.   The Cutileiro Plan is a plan that envisaged a new internal set-up

 8     within Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As far as I know, in this plan, in its

 9     chapters, there was this important thing that had to do with the Ministry

10     of Interior or, rather, the police.  And all three communities, all three

11     ethnic communities, all three peoples, on the basis of that plan, could

12     set up their own police force in the area where they were a majority.

13     This plan was signed by the highest representatives of the Muslim, Croat

14     and Serb peoples.  Unfortunately, Serbs carried out that plan; but,

15     unfortunately, as far as I know, the Muslim representative on the plane

16     backtracked and withdrew his approval, whichever way you want to put it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we can call up D935.  That should be your

18     statement, which I think I still have in front of you.  And if we could

19     turn to page 7 in the Serbian, page 6 in the English, and I'd like to

20     focus on paragraph 19 of the same.

21             And, sir, focussing on the Serbian original which you signed, in

22     the English translation, it says:  "In keeping with the Treaty of

23     Lisbon/Cutileiro Plan," were you talking about a treaty in the Serbian

24     original or a -- what -- could you read for us what it says in the

25     Serbian original as to that passage where the Cutileiro Plan is

Page 33251

 1     identified.

 2        A.   Based on the agreement reached at the top echelons of the

 3     Ministry of Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian special police

 4     was given the base in Vrace in the school of the Ministry of Interior.

 5     Whereas, the Muslim and Croatian part of the special police remained in

 6     Krtelje.  That was about the decision which was passed at

 7     Minister Delimustafic's level and co-ordinated with him.

 8        Q.   We seem to have missed the part that I was focussing on.  Could

 9     you read for us what appears in the Serbian, what words appear in the

10     Serbian just before Cutileiro Plan, the other part of how the -- the two

11     word that appear before Cutileiro Plan?

12        A.   What appears is the wording in keeping with the Lisbon Agreement.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   If I understand the -- the portion properly.

15        Q.   That is what I was referring to as in the English, it says the

16     Lisbon Treaty.

17             Now I'd like to look at P3106 in e-court.

18             In e-court, this Prosecution document has been identified as:

19     "Statement of principles for new constitutional arrangements of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Lisbon Agreement."

21             And if we can go to page 3 in both versions, this is dated

22     18 March 1992 and is -- says at the bottom:  "As agreed by the leaders of

23     SDA, SDS, and HDZ parties in the fifth round of the talks on future

24     constitutional arrangements for Bosnia and Herzegovina under the auspices

25     of the EC Peace Conference."

Page 33252

 1             Is this the Cutileiro Plan/Lisbon Agreement that you are

 2     referencing in this paragraph of your statement?

 3        A.   Yes.  My opinion is that this is a part of the Lisbon Treaty.

 4        Q.   And if we could turn to page 4, the very next page, there is a

 5     map here that gives designations for Muslim, Serb and Croat.  Are you

 6     familiar with --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I just interrupt you.  I

 8     understood the issue raised in cross-examination was whether or not there

 9     was a -- a final agreement which could be applied, rather than there was

10     any discussion about what the Cutileiro Plan, applicable or not, would

11     encompass and including, maps, et cetera, I'm not aware of any map issue

12     being raised.

13             So, therefore, I'm wondering whether I misunderstood the

14     cross-examination or what makes you think that this issue is triggered by

15     the cross-examination.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I understood they were requesting the existence of

17     the citation in the statement primarily saying that there was no treaty

18     which we've now seen as a result of imprecise translation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack.

20             MS. PACK:  As I remember I'm just trying to finds the reference,

21     but I think I actually referred to the statement of principles in terms.

22     And then didn't ask questions about the detail because --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It was about whether it had become final, whether it

24     was binding upon the parties and that's -- and therefore whether you

25     could talk about a treaty, whether it was concluded yes or no, not about

Page 33253

 1     the content of what was drafted and this one would have been.

 2             MS. PACK:  Yes.  And the follow-up was whether it was agreed the

 3     MUP was divided [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that's another matter

 5     whether that there was agreement among the parties.

 6             So, therefore, I think, Mr. Ivetic, the maps, et cetera, is not a

 7     matter which is in dispute at this moment in this context.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Fair enough.  I just stress that the

10     Prosecution's own exhibit calls it the Lisbon Agreement; just so we're

11     clear on that.

12             If we can turn to -- well, actually, no.

13        Q.   There's quite a number of questions in cross-examination about

14     whether the splitting of the special police unit and the sending of the

15     Serb part to Vrace was known or agreed to by the collegium of the MUP.  I

16     would again ask for 1D5309 to be admitted into evidence?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack.

18             MS. PACK:  I wasn't talking about the special unit in

19     cross-examination.  There were four question about the division of the

20     MUP and it was just these two documents, so I think to then go back and

21     talk again about the special unit would not really be re-examination.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I'm not doing any questions; I'm just making a

23     submission again as to the associated exhibit.  Your Honours, if it

24     assists I can shorten the 16 pages of that document by saying pages 5

25     through 8 -- actually 5 through 11, 5 through 11 encompass the entire

Page 33254

 1     process of that and I would revise our request for that associated

 2     exhibits to be admitted limiting it to those pages, 5 and through

 3     exclusive 11.  And I think it's now appropriate to have that tendered and

 4     admitted based upon the cross-examination of the Prosecution on this very

 5     same area, relying upon a 1992 dispatch of Mr. Alija Delimustafic who is

 6     the person giving the testimony in 1D5309.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, any objection against ...

 8             MS. PACK:  Your Honours, I maintain the position, the Prosecution

 9     maintains the position that this extract of testimony from apparently

10     from Delimustafic in the State Court is neither relevant nor probative to

11     the extent -- or, indeed, an inseparable and indispensable part of the

12     testimony.  I don't see how it assists.  But perhaps I need to read the

13     paragraphs that my friend is now relying on.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the pages were given yesterday so,

15     therefore, you had an opportunity already.

16             I do understand that the Defence wants to establish that

17     Mr. Delimustafic -- but not only him.  There is more than just the

18     statement of Mr. Delimustafic, Mr. Ivetic, but at least in one point in

19     time he describes the process as he did in that courtroom.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber was just wondering whether

22     on what basis it will now be admitted.  You said it is a document which

23     sheds additional light on -- on -- well, perhaps you explain exactly what

24     the procedural position of the Defence is in this respect and also in

25     relation to whether any questions were put to the witness about what now

Page 33255

 1     appears to be the content of the document you're referring to.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And please repeat the correct number.  It was not

 3     recorded properly.  I think it is 1D05309; correct?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

 5             So 1D05309 is an associated document, associated with paragraph

 6     19 of the witness' statement, which we originally tendered as an

 7     associated exhibit.  After questions were asked of the witness of his

 8     knowledge of Mr. Delimustafic's comments, Your Honours suggested that now

 9     the testimony of the witness could stand in place of the document.  And I

10     agreed with you.

11             Then the Prosecution cross-examined the witness presenting

12     documents that pre-date the 2001 testimony of Delimustafic, implying that

13     was no agreement at the collegium level and that there -- and that

14     Delimustafic was -- was ordering that the units that the MUP not be

15     split.  And so for purposes of understanding the witness's testimony in

16     19 and assessing the credibility of the witness's testimony in relation

17     to 19 and in relation to the answers to the questions in

18     cross-examination I'm now re-raising 1D05309, the page selection that I

19     identified, as it is directly relevant and directly tied to the questions

20     that were posed to him in cross-examination and helps the Chamber to

21     assess the testimony of the witness given during that cross-examination.

22     And it's for that limited purpose, not for the truth of the matter

23     asserted in the document 1D5309.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pack, any objection?

25             MS. PACK:  I still don't understand why it is being admitted --

Page 33256

 1     sought to be admitted not for the truth, but I understand it's being

 2     sought to be admitted to corroborate what the witness is saying about a

 3     few incidents not -- so -- I am -- I think it is being sought to be

 4     admitted for its truth.  I mean, that's the point is that it's a

 5     transcript of what this individual says, which as I understand it the

 6     Defence says corroborates the witness.

 7             Now the point really is just a point of principle, is whether

 8     it's really and truly is indispensable and inseparable to this witness's

 9     testimony to put in somebody else's testimony in another case that

10     apparently - so the Defence says - supports what he is saying.

11             That's the point and I don't say anything further, but that's the

12     point of our position.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will MFI the document.

15             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D936, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D936 is marked for identification and the Chamber

18     will, in due course, decide on the admission as requested by the Defence.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that would be -- have you uploaded the

22     relevant pages.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I haven't.  Still need to --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Still needs to be done, so D936 is reserved for the

25     extract of the court proceedings in the case against Mr. Mandic, both

Page 33257

 1     covering the testimony of Mr. Delimustafic and some other portions as

 2     well.

 3             In accordance with the pages mentioned by Mr. Ivetic, and once

 4     it's uploaded, we'd like to hear from you.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  You will, Your Honours.  We're at the time for the

 6     break.  I have no further questions.

 7        Q.   I'd like to thank you Mr. Karisik on behalf of the Defence team

 8     for coming.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And thank you, Your Honours for the extra time that

10     we went over.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we take that break, could I inquire

12     with the Prosecution if you have any further questions.

13             MS. PACK:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one further question.  Please answer briefly.

15             We see your statement from the Karadzic case and quite a number

16     of paragraphs have been redacted, removed, more or less, blackened out.

17     Could you tell us how this happened?  Did you suggest to take those

18     portions out, or did it happen in any other way?  Could you just briefly

19     describe how this happened?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A certain number of generals

21     thought that this should be my statement that should be based on my

22     previous statement --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the first part of the

24     answer.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The first part was not well captured by our

Page 33258

 1     interpreters.  Could you please repeat what you said in the beginning of

 2     your answer?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Defence team of General Mladic,

 4     that was the first part.  They redacted my statement because they thought

 5     that to be necessary for this case, for this trial, and this testimony.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 7             May I take it that my question has not triggered any further --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honour.  I could tell that you in keeping

 9     with your guidance we redacted the statements.  The unredacted is

10     available in e-court as 1D4749 without the A.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll not look at it.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But we take that the Prosecution has done so.

14             MS. PACK:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Karisik, this concludes your evidence.

16     I'd like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and

17     for having answered all the questions that were put to you - sometimes

18     even more than that - questions that were put to you by the parties and

19     by the Bench.  You may follow the usher.  I wish you a safe return home

20     again.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 12.30.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

Page 33259

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we invite the Defence to call its next

 2     witness, there are a few procedural items I'd like to briefly deal with.

 3             The first one is the Defence has asked for additional time to

 4     prepare for the reopening of the Prosecution's case.  When could the

 5     Chamber expect the response by the Prosecution?  Because we considered it

 6     be an urgent matter.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President.  I think

 8     certainly in the next two days.  It shouldn't take us long.  We do need

 9     to just focus on it, and speak to our superiors.  But that shouldn't be a

10     problem.  I would hope within two days.  We'll let you know if there's

11     any delay in that.  Normally, as you know, as Mr. Tieger said, this is

12     the kind of thing we leave in your hands, but we need to take a closer

13     look at this, see if we could be of help.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the Chamber would very much appreciate

15     that you respond as quickly as possible so that we can further consider

16     the matter.  And, of course, it has an impact on all kinds of plans and

17     scheduling issues and therefore we'd like to deal with it as quickly as

18     we can.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, absolutely.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to deal with a few matters and read two

23     decisions.

24             First one deals with the admission of P7049.

25             On the 21st and the 22nd of January of this year, the Prosecution

Page 33260

 1     and the Defence used excerpts of document bearing 65 ter number 14008

 2     with Prosecution -- with the Witness -- not a Prosecution witness,

 3     GRM014.  Exhibit number P7049 was reserved for the document pending

 4     agreement between the parties as to which pages would be tendered.  You

 5     can find this on transcript page 30439 through 30440.

 6             On 22 January the Prosecution informed the Chamber that it had

 7     uploaded an excerpt into e-court under 65 ter number 14008a and requested

 8     that it be admitted.  The Chamber is inviting the Defence to express

 9     itself on whether it has any objections.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will inform you

11     about that tomorrow morning because my colleague, Mr. Lukic, is dealing

12     with that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for your answer and receive it

14     tomorrow morning.

15             Then there is a remaining issue from the testimony of

16     Slavko Puhalic, it's about D899.

17             During the testimony of this witness on 12 February 2015, D899, a

18     video, was marked for identification pending information from the Defence

19     on the date, location where it was filmed, and a number of sequences in

20     the video.  This can be found at transcript pages 31649 to 31651.

21             On the 9th of February, the Defence informed the Chamber that

22     D899 was taped on the 5th of August, 1992 and is an excerpt of

23     65 ter number 22615, which also is a video.  This can be found at

24     transcript pages 32740 to -741.  The Chamber notes that the Defence did

25     not provide any information on where the video had been filmed or on the

Page 33261

 1     number of sequences included in the video, as requested by the Chamber on

 2     the 4th of March at transcript page 32636.

 3             The Chamber therefore denies the admission of D899 into evidence

 4     without prejudice.

 5             Then I'll deliver the oral decision on the expertise of

 6     Bruno Franjic related to the Tomasica mass grave.

 7             On the 26th of August, 2014, the Prosecution filed a notice of

 8     disclosure of Bruno Franjic's expert report related to the Tomasica mass

 9     grave, pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

10             On the 18th of September, the Chamber granted the Defence request

11     of the 8th of September for an extension of time to file its Rule 94 bis

12     (B) notice.  The Defence responded on the 22nd of December, objecting to

13     the Prosecution's notice of disclosure of expert reports related to the

14     Tomasica mass grave.

15             The Defence submits that the Prosecution be ordered to supplement

16     its submission regarding Franjic to meet the minimum threshold required

17     by Rule 94 bis or, in the alternative, that Franjic be disqualified as an

18     expert and that his report be rejected.  It submits that the conclusions

19     in the report tend to fall outside the scope of his expertise and that

20     there's a suspicion of bias that impacts on the impartiality of the

21     report.

22             With respect to the applicable law concerning expert evidence,

23     the Chamber recalls and refers to its 19th of October 2012 decision

24     concerning Richard Butler.  On the basis of Franjic's curriculum vitae,

25     the Chamber is satisfied that he has specialised knowledge in the field

Page 33262

 1     of ballistic analysis.  Such knowledge may be of assistance to the

 2     Chamber in understanding issues related to the evidence on the exhumation

 3     of the Tomasica grave-site.

 4             With regard to the Defence request to cross-examine the witness,

 5     the Chamber notes that the Prosecution plans to call Franjic as part of

 6     its reopening case.  The Defence will therefore have the opportunity to

 7     cross-examine him.

 8             As for any of the arguments raised by the Defence related to the

 9     reliability and exceeding of expertise of Franjic's report, the Chamber

10     considers that these are matters that can be, and should be, addressed

11     during the cross-examination of the witness.  The Defence will also have

12     an opportunity to fully explore the witness's alleged bias in the course

13     of cross-examination or can address it by means of an expert opinion in

14     reply.

15             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides, pursuant to

16     Rule 94 bis, that Witness Franjic may be called to testify as an expert

17     witness and shall be made available for cross-examination by the Defence;

18     denies the Defence request to order the Prosecution to supplement its

19     submission; and denies the Defence request to disqualify Franjic as an

20     expert.

21             The Chamber defers its decision on admission of the report and

22     its addendum to the time of the witness's testimony.  And this concludes

23     the Chamber's decision.

24             I will now deliver a decision of a similar nature.

25             A decision on the expertise of Elmira Karahasanovic, in regard to

Page 33263

 1     the exhumation of the Tomasica mass grave.

 2             On the 26th of August 2014, the Prosecution filed a notice of

 3     disclosure of Elmira Karahasanovic's expert report related to the

 4     Tomasica mass grave pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and

 5     Evidence.

 6             On 18th September, the Chamber granted the Defence request of the

 7     8th of September for an extension of time to file its Rule 94 bis (B)

 8     notice.  The Defence responded on 22nd of December, objecting to the

 9     Prosecution's notice of disclosure of expert reports related to the

10     Tomasica mass grave.

11             The Defence submits that the Prosecution be ordered to supplement

12     its submission regarding Witness Karahasanovic to meet the minimum

13     threshold required by Rule 94 bis or, alternatively, that Karahasanovic

14     be disqualified as an expert than her report be rejected.

15             The Defence contends that the report exceeds the scope of her

16     expertise.  The Defence further challenges the methodology and

17     reliability of the proffered report.  With respect to the applicable law

18     concerning expert evidence, the Chamber recalls and refers to its

19     decision of the 19th of October, 2012, concerning Richard Butler.  On the

20     basis of Karahasanovic's curriculum vitae, the Chamber is satisfied that

21     she has specialised knowledge in the field of forensic pathology.  Such

22     knowledge may be of assistance to the Chamber in understanding issues

23     related to the evidence on the exhumation of the Tomasica grave-site.

24             With regard to the Defence request to cross-examine the witness,

25     the Chamber notes that the Prosecution plans to call Karahasanovic as

Page 33264

 1     part of its reopening case.  The Defence will therefore have the

 2     opportunity to cross-examine her.

 3             As for any of the arguments raised by the Defence related to the

 4     methodology, reliability, and exceeding of expertise of Karahasanovic's

 5     report, the Chamber considers that these are matters that can be, and

 6     should be, addressed during the cross-examination of the witness.

 7             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides, pursuant to Rule 94

 8     bis, that Witness Karahasanovic may be called to testify as an expert

 9     witness and shall be made available for cross-examination by the Defence;

10     denies the Defence request to order the Prosecution to supplement its

11     submission; and denies the Defence request to disqualify

12     Elmira Karahasanovic as an expert.  The Chamber defers its decision on

13     admission of the report and photodocumentation to the time of the

14     witness's testimony.

15             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Although there were a few more items on my agenda,

18     we, nevertheless, think it's better to first proceed with hearing the

19     testimony of the next witness.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, the next witness would be?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Dragoslav Trisic is our next

22     witness, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Trisic.

Page 33265

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 3     make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.

 4             May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

 7     and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  DRAGOSLAV TRISIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Trisic.  Please be seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trisic, you'll first be examined by

13     Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic

14     is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, according to the procedure that we observe

19     here, would you please slowly state your name and surname.

20        A.   My name is Dragoslav Trisic.  My father's name is Stanko.

21        Q.   Mr. Trisic, at one point in time, did you give a statement, a

22     written statement, to the Defence of General Mladic?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

25     have 65 ter 1D01640 in e-court, please.

Page 33266

 1        Q.   Mr. Trisic, you have the first page of this statement before you.

 2     And my question is whether you recognise the signature on this page.

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  It is my signature.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

 5     the last page of this document.

 6        Q.   Mr. Trisic, same question:  On this last page of this document,

 7     do you recognise the signature and in whose hand was this date written?

 8        A.   I recognise my signature, and the date was written in my own

 9     hand; the 6th of June, 2014.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please focus on

12     paragraph 23 of this statement.

13        Q.   Mr. Trisic, yesterday when we were preparing for your court

14     appearance, did you indicate that your wish would be to give a more

15     precise explanation in view of this sentence.  And this is what you said

16     to me:  "After the word came in the last sentence" --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, usually this procedure is used to

18     make any corrections to the statement or to -- but if we need further

19     clarifications, you should read them to the witness.  You should put

20     questions to the witness so as to have further information.  So this

21     first stage, before tendering the document, should be used to make

22     corrections.  And then, if there's any further elaboration you'd like to

23     seek, that's to be done in the remaining time but not by you reading what

24     the witness would wish to say and what he told you because, to say the

25     least, that would be leading.

Page 33267

 1             Therefore, if there's any other matter in terms of correction,

 2     please tell us or ask the witness about it.  Then move to admission or at

 3     least the tendering, and then put any additional questions to the

 4     witness.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This is a

 6     minor correction.

 7        Q.   So just one word --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we still in the same paragraph?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 23.  The last

10     sentence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Where it says:  "...arrived at

13     the Vihor enterprise ..."

14        Q.   You wanted to indicate that "arrived at the parking lot of the

15     Vihor enterprise"; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  May I explain?  The parking lot of Vihor is separate from

17     work-shops and the company itself.  It's a separate parking lot.  At the

18     entrance into the town of Bratunac from the direction of Konjevic Polje.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And now once you've made this correction and after

20     having taken the solemn declaration here in this courtroom that you will

21     tell the whole truth to the best of your knowledge and ability with

22     regard to all of these events, if the same questions were put to you

23     today would you give identical answers along with this correction that

24     we've just entered into your statement?

25        A.   Yes, I would give identical answers as those provided in this

Page 33268

 1     statement, as written in this statement.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

 4     tender into evidence the statement of Witness Dragoslav Trisic, 65 ter

 5     number 1D01640.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 7             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D937, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. Stojanovic, I was misled by your announcement that it was an

11     explanation that would follow rather than a correction.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At the same time, Your Honours,

14     I would like to ask that two documents be admitted into evidence as

15     supporting documents.  65 ter 04209 and 24904.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect to the first one, Your Honours, 4209,

18     the Prosecution's position is that been insufficiently commented and not

19     contextualised in any regard, so it is not an indispensable part of the

20     evidence and frankly looking at what sits in e-court in terms of the

21     original document, I have some doubt that the witness has even seen it.

22     And keeping that in mind, I have some reservations about whether he's

23     actually seen in preparation for his testimony the second document, 4209,

24     when I call it up in e-court in its original B/C/S is illegible.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the second is 24904.  And perhaps -- let me

Page 33269

 1     look at it for a second please.  It's paragraph 16 of his statement.

 2             Could we have that last one on our screen, 24904.  I will.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's a 65 ter number.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I should have added that.

 5             Ms. Edgerton, I think you said this was an illegible version.

 6     Now --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  The first one, Your Honours.  4209.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The first one.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  4209.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  4209.  Then I made a mistake in that respect.

11             Could we have a look at 04209, 65 ter.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  That's not the right 65 ter number.  We're looking

13     for 04209.

14             So now that's the right document.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll further ask the witness.

16             Witness, in paragraph 8 of your statement, you are recorded as

17     having referred to this document.

18             Or is it a document from another case, Mr. -- no, it's not.

19             Could you please tell us how you were able to comment on the

20     original of this document, Witness?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one sentence,

22     please.  Could you please take a look at the next page of this document?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we have the next page.

Page 33270

 1             Does that -- there we are.

 2             Could we have -- I'm just confused at this moment, but...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us whether you have seen --

 5             We go back to the first page.  We'll do it page by page.

 6             Have you seen this document before when you gave your statement?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you read it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With difficulty.  But since I also

10     saw the text that I personally wrote it my own hand, I could probably

11     decipher the requests for equipment and materiel.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first have a look --

13             Do you say that the handwriting is the same as what is found on

14     this page or -- I do not fully understand, perhaps, your ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the original

16     handwritten document that I compiled in my own handwriting.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll move to that page.

18             But are you saying that you could decipher what is here in

19     this -- in this typed or printed document?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to be honest, it's not easy

21     to decipher the document.  All in all, this is difficult to decipher.

22     This is the best way I can put it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were you able to do it ever?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we move onto the next page.  I would say

Page 33271

 1     let's go in the original to page 3 because page 2 is only a -- only

 2     contains two numbers.

 3             Page 3.  Could you tell us what this is?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see when the command of

 5     the Drina Corps received the preparatory order on the 2nd of July, 1995,

 6     I studied the commander's request, and I issued a request for equipment

 7     and materiel.  I sent it to the Drina Corps Command.  The goal was to

 8     have a timely delivery of the missing equipment and materiel in our

 9     units.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll later hear any further explanations.  I'm just

11     at this moment focussing on legibility.

12             Could we go to page 4 in e-court in the original.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the original.  And now

14     what's on the screen is not -- just a while ago, I had my own document in

15     my own handwriting which was rather legible and what I can see now on the

16     screen is something that I don't recognise.  I don't know what this is

17     it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we move to page 5.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I may have a suggestion that could obviate

20     spending more time on this.  I'm in Your Honours' hands if you'd like to

21     hear from me on this.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first go to page 5.  That's the last page

23     anyhow of the document, and then ...

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We would like to see the English version so that

25     we can compare the documents.

Page 33272

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you explain what this is?  Is this

 3     the ...

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the B/C/S back?  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Witness, what this is.

 6             Could the B/C/S moved in such a way that we can see more of the

 7     page.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  There we are.  It's -- it was possible.

10             Witness, could you tell us what this is.  Is this the second part

11     of your handwritten document?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Clearly this is the second

13     page of the same document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Ms. Edgerton, you had a suggestion what best to do.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, it's with gratitude to Ms. Stewart who as we

17     were discussing this was able to make contact with the evidence unit who

18     were able to provide a better scan of the original document that was

19     being tendered as a prospective associated exhibit, and given the

20     questions and answers of this witnesses, maybe the best thing is to allow

21     us to upload a better original document, which we could do immediately

22     and have the witness affirm that it's identical to what he has just gone

23     through with Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're following that suggestion?

25             Then what we'll do is we'll reserve a number for this document,

Page 33273

 1     awaiting the final upload of the better legible copy.

 2             Mr. Registrar, that would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D938, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D938 is reserved.

 5             Then for the other document, the other associated exhibit, which

 6     was - let me just have a look - I think it was 65 ter 24904.  That would

 7     receive number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D939, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. -- we -- I'm -- just one second.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, I'm still a bit puzzled by exhibit numbers

12     already given to, for example, 65 ter 04209.  What exhibit number is

13     that?  Or is that exhibit in this case?

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is an exhibit in this case.

16     It has a number.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then I --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the Prosecutor's

19     assistance and understanding.  We had an occasion to review this with the

20     witness and I will obviously continue when we have a better version.  And

21     now, Your Honours, I would like to read the witness statement summary.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- please do so.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I couldn't follow the last discussion about the

24     document.

25             In paragraph 8 of the statement, there are two numbers, one is an

Page 33274

 1     exhibit number, P1464; and then there are -- is the small i which is

 2     as -- if I'm not mistake an "and," and then the 65 ter number we are

 3     talking about.  Mr. Stojanovic, are these two exhibits or is it one

 4     exhibit?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can understand it,

 6     this would effectively be two exhibits because P1464 was the typewritten

 7     version without the handwritten attachment that was recognised by the

 8     witness as his own document that he had drafted in his own hand.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this can't be the case because in your

10     list of associated exhibits, there appears a different exhibit --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P1464 is the Drina Corps Command order and not

13     the -- an order or report by the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are totally different documents; correct?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are right.  P1464 is the

17     order of the Drina Corps Command.  The document is already in evidence

18     but it is mentioned in paragraph 8.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And in addition to that, another document we

20     talked about, which is now reserved as D938.  Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

22     Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That having been clarified, please read your

24     summary, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Dragoslav Trisic is a

Page 33275

 1     reserve officer.  In April 1992 he was mobilised by the Ministry of

 2     Defence in Bratunac.  He was assigned to discharge the duties as a

 3     Chief of Staff of the TO.  At that time, the TO commander was

 4     Captain Momir Nikolic.

 5             When the VRS was established, he discharged a series of duties

 6     and finally he was appointed the assistant commander of the Bratunac

 7     Brigade for logistics.  He remained in that position until the end of the

 8     war.

 9             In his statement, he speaks about his activities which preceded

10     the events known as Krivaja 95 and the tasks that he had at the time.  He

11     provides a detailed description of the tasks of his service pursuant to

12     the preparatory order of the Drina Corps dated 2nd July 1992.  He also

13     describes the tasks that were issued to his brigade based on the order

14     for active combat in Operation Krivaja 95.  He also mentions his

15     handwritten suggestions to his commander and also suggestions by

16     Momir Nikolic based on his opinion.

17             Finally, he explains the tasks based on the order of the

18     commander of the Bratunac Brigade dated 5 July 1992, which were based on

19     the order of the Drina Corps Command.

20             He received the information on the liberation of Srebrenica on

21     the 11th of July, 1995.

22             Already on the 12th of July 1992 or, rather, 1995 he remembers

23     that a telegram was received from the assistant commander of the

24     Drina Corps for logistics.  According to that telegram, vehicles had to

25     be deployed to transport Muslims, those Muslims who had gathered in

Page 33276

 1     Potocari and also that the population should be provided with all the

 2     available quantities of bread.

 3             When he embarked on the implementation of the order, he went to

 4     Potocari where he saw General Mladic.  General Mladic addressed the

 5     people there and told them that they would be transported to Tuzla and

 6     that there was no need for them to create havoc, and that was received by

 7     the people with approval.  He stayed there for an hour to an hour and a

 8     half and he did not see that men were separated from the group, nor that

 9     they were forbidden from entering the buses.  He did not see any force

10     being used against the population, nor did he hear any derogatory word

11     used to refer to those people.

12             That same afternoon, the 12th of July, 1995, he was at the

13     command of the Bratunac Brigade, as well as on the following day, the 3rd

14     [as interpreted] of July 1995.  He heard that there had been shooting at

15     the Kravica farm, that a Muslim had attacked a policeman, stole his rifle

16     and killed him.  The rest of the police who were providing security

17     responded by opening fire in order to prevent people from fleeing.

18             And, finally, he says that on 14th and 15th July, the Bratunac

19     Brigade was involved in the scouring of the terrain.  One part of the

20     unit joined the Zvornik Brigade in its area of responsibility due to the

21     problems with the column of the 28th Division of the BiH army, and on the

22     17th of July, one part of his brigade was deployed in the direction of

23     Zepa.

24             Your Honour, this was a short summary of

25     Witness Dragoslav Trisic's statement, and now I would like to have a few

Page 33277

 1     questions for the witness.  I would like to call up D937, paragraph 23.

 2        Q.   Mr. Trisic, I would like to ask you, in view of your duties, the

 3     duties that you discharged as the assistant commander for logistics in

 4     the Bratunac Brigade, in addition to the fuel that you received at the

 5     parking lot of the Vihor company, did you receive any other equipment,

 6     materiel, or supplies that were necessary for the implementation of your

 7     tasks?

 8        A.   We received fuel from other sides as well.

 9        Q.   To the best of your recollection, could you please tell us who

10     you received the fuel from at that time?

11        A.   On the 13th of July, in the afternoon, an UNPROFOR truck arrived

12     in -- in the perimeter of the Vihor transport company.  Within that

13     perimeter there was a fuel tank which was used by the transport company

14     itself.  That truck that had arrived in the Vihor perimeter unloaded some

15     30 tonnes of diesel fuel for buses.  Those buses were supposed to

16     transport the Muslim population in the direction of either Tuzla or

17     Kladanj.  We received 30 tonnes of diesel fuel from UNPROFOR.  Those

18     UNPROFOR units were in Potocari.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive additional quantities of fuel from

20     other international organisations on top of the 30 tonnes that you have

21     just mentioned?

22        A.   Yes.  On the following day, since a lot of fuel was being used

23     for the buses, from UNHCR we received an additional 23.300 litres or 23,3

24     tonnes of diesel.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And could we please take a look at paragraph 26 of

Page 33278

 1     your statement now.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] D937 is its current number.

 3        Q.   You will see it there before you on the screen, Mr. Trisic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, could we

 5     please move onto the next page.

 6        Q.   You say there that, to the best of your recollection, on the 17th

 7     of July, a unit from the Bratunac Brigade with Commander Blagojevic went

 8     towards Zepa.

 9             Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where were you yourself

10     physically from that day, the 17th of July?

11        A.   On the 17th of July, we prepared a battalion that is from the

12     area of Avdagina Njiva.  It's an area between Bratunac and Kravica and

13     they moved in the direction of Zepa.  Together with the commander of the

14     brigade, Colonel Blagojevic, I went on that 17th of July to the area of

15     Zepa.

16        Q.   All the time while your brigade was involved in the area of Zepa,

17     were you there, physically, or did you have other activities as well?

18        A.   For the most part, I spent most of that time in the area of Zepa

19     and provided logistics to the units of the Bratunac Brigade.  However, in

20     the meantime, sometimes there would be a need for me to go to the command

21     of the brigade in Bratunac to carry out certain tasks or prepare some

22     equipment that could perhaps be provided to the units in the area of

23     Zepa.  In principle, I was in that area of Zepa from the beginning until

24     the end, until the brigade returned to the area of Bratunac.

25        Q.   Mr. Trisic, thank you for your answers.

Page 33279

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

 2     once we've uploaded this more legible part of the document, I will take

 3     the liberty of going through these questions for the witness once again

 4     in relation to what we discussed a while ago.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The document has been uploaded so you could do it

 6     right away, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             Could the new --

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you

 9     for -- thank you to the Prosecution for their help so could we now see

10     the document as it is, as it has been uploaded.  And now D --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Under what number is it uploaded?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  The same 65 ter number 4209.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  4209.  Could we have a look.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.  Ms. Stewart advises me D938.

15     Apologies.  It's been uploaded under number D938.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That is impossible.  D938 is only a number reserved

17     which, Mr. Registrar, if you could ...

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the small a is missing.  No?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently it has been replaced under the existing

21     65 ter number.  Could we have a look at 65 ter -- oh, we have it already.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 4209, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There we have the better legible copy.  And let's

24     just have a look.  I --

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 33280

 1        Q.   Mr. Trisic, you see before you now a version that is better or,

 2     rather, a better copy of this text.  And I would like to ask you to read

 3     this, please, and to tell us whether the text as is written here

 4     corresponds to what you wrote in your own hand for the purpose of

 5     supplies, asking for supplies of materiel for carrying out the orders

 6     toward the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes, this text that I have on the screen does correspond to

 8     the text that I wrote in my own hand, asking for materiel from the

 9     command of the Drina Corps.

10        Q.   I'm going to end by putting the following question --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You tendered it as associated exhibit so I

12     don't know that you need further -- I mean, the correspond is what

13     everyone is read, is there anything else that needs to be clarified?

14     Because what we have now, we have two pages in English, both more or less

15     the same, I would say, and we have in the original, we have page 1 in

16     e-court is the -- is the typewritten, better legible version.  Page 2

17     contains only two numbers.  Page 3, 4, and 5 is the handwriting the

18     witness referred to earlier.

19             Any further need to put further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think there are none,

21     Your Honour.  After the witness confirmed this, so now I would like to

22     tender this.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The number had been reserved already.  That

24     was D938.

25             D938 is admitted into evidence.

Page 33281

 1             Ms. Edgerton --

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I have thereby

 3     finished with the witness.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, would it not be better that we take a

 5     break now and that you then have 20 minutes left to start your

 6     cross-examination after the break.

 7             Or if Mr. Mladic would prefer to go on for another 20 minutes and

 8     then adjourn for the day, that would be agreeable to the Chamber as well.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you please switch on your microphone that we

13     can --

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just convey

15     General Mladic's position and that is he thinks it's better that we take

16     a break now and that we work for 20 minutes after that break.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That suggestion is followed.

18             The witness may now follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back

19     in 20 minutes, and we'll resume at five minutes to 2.00.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 1.36 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trisic, you'll now be cross-examined by

25     Ms. Edgerton.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Edgerton is counsel

Page 33282

 1     for the Prosecution.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Trisic.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   I'm going to try and keep this as brief as I can, but,

 8     unfortunately, it might stretch out into a little bit of time tomorrow.

 9             So let's begin.

10             Can you just confirm, first of all, that you stayed on duty in

11     your post in the Bratunac Brigade long after the end of the war.  You

12     left in June 1996; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes, that's true.

14        Q.   Great.  Now, I'd just like to amplify some of the evidence you

15     gave in your statement in paragraph 7 about how the brigade was supplied.

16             So my first question is:  You can confirm, can't you, that the

17     VRS Main Staff had its own logistics centres; right?

18        A.   Yes, yes, they had their own logistics centres, the Main Staff

19     did.

20        Q.   And how it worked is that when your units needed ammunition,

21     fuel, whatever, they would ask the brigade, and then, depending on what

22     was required, the brigade would ask the corps, and the corps would ask

23     the Main Staff; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  The brigade would address the corps command with a

25     request for replenishment.

Page 33283

 1        Q.   And during the operation you talked about in your written

 2     evidence, Krivaja 95, that's what happened, right, the Bratunac Brigade

 3     received large quantities of ammunition and materiel through this

 4     process; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  Now it's relative whether these were large quantities or

 6     not.  At any rate, we did not get as much as we had asked for.  We always

 7     got less.  Because there wasn't enough.

 8        Q.   And so -- and it came through you; right?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   I want to have a quick look at one document so we can get some

11     insight into how this process worked.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter 06029.

13        Q.   So in front of you on the screen is a document from

14     Milenko Lazic, who was the operations chief and Deputy Chief of Staff at

15     the Drina Corps, and it's to the VRS Main Staff.  And it's dated the 8th

16     of July, 1995.  So what he's doing is telling them that considering in

17     the course of the day the brigade has conducted heavy offensive

18     operations in Srebrenica territory, and met with some success, they

19     consumed a large amount of ammunition of all calibres and they needed to

20     replenish their supplies.

21             So he asks for 7.62-millimetre bullets, I think the English

22     translation is rounds but it's bullets, for different weapons.  And have

23     a look at the rest of the list so these 20-millimetre and 30-millimetre

24     rounds, that's ammunition for anti-aircraft guns; right?

25             Do you see the mention of 20 and 30-millimetre "metak," in your

Page 33284

 1     own language.  It's at the bottom of the paragraph of this single

 2     document.  That refers to ammunition for -- that's anti-aircraft

 3     ammunition; right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  That is ammunition for two different guns.

 5     20 millimetres and 30 millimetres.

 6        Q.   And these 90-millimetre rounds, that's ammunition for tanks;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   And it mentions 122-millimetre D-30 shells.  Those are Howitzer

10     rounds that they're talking about in this document, aren't they?

11        A.   I think so, that's right.

12        Q.   And you got what you asked for, didn't you?  Your brigade

13     received these weapons, or pardon me, this ammunition as a result of this

14     request.  That's what happened; right?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Your Honours, I

16     think that this leads to confusion because the question has to do with

17     whether the Bratunac Brigade received this and this document is the

18     command of the Drina Corps, so I don't think that the foundation has been

19     laid properly for this question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there has been laid a foundation as to the

21     system; that is, brigade, corps, Main Staff.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   So did you get these -- did you get the ammunition set out in

25     this document?

Page 33285

 1        A.   No.  This is not a request of the brigade.  This is a request of

 2     the higher command, of the corps command, and it's addressed to the

 3     Main Staff of the VRS.  So the request has nothing do with the brigade

 4     command or my authority.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's move that off the screen for a moment and go to

 6     65 ter number 6306 which also dated from the 8th of July, 1995.  Same

 7     date as this document.

 8             Right.  Now, Mr. Trisic, this is a delivery note dated 8th of

 9     July, 1995 from military post 7111, Han Pijesak, and that's the

10     Drina Corps Command to your military post.  And, Mr. Trisic, it shows

11     that on that date, the Bratunac Brigade received 7.62-millimetre bullets

12     to the tune of 15.000; 7.9-millimetre bullets, 30-millimetre bullets, and

13     it received 122-millimetre D-30 artillery shells.

14        A.   Yes, yes, that is what the document says.  I cannot say

15     otherwise.

16        Q.   So when you unequivocally denied receiving any of the ammunition

17     that was outlined in the Lazic document from the Drina Corps, that was

18     incorrect, wasn't it?  That's confirmed by this document.

19        A.   I still maintain that the command of the Bratunac Brigade or I,

20     as assistant commander for logistics, did not ask for materiel or,

21     rather, ammunition, as is stated in the request and as is stated in this

22     material list.

23             An explanation for that could be as follows:  During the

24     operation in Bratunac, logistics functioned of the command of the

25     Drina Corps, that is, and --

Page 33286

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... we'll have a chance to hear

 2     an explanation, perhaps, in your re-direct examination.  But let's go

 3     back to your response in respect of the first document that Mr. Lazic

 4     wrote.  I asked you whether or not your brigade received any of the

 5     weaponry -- pardon me, the ammunition that was listed in that document,

 6     and you said no.

 7             65 ter 6306 confirms your brigade received it, so I didn't ask

 8     you, with respect, whether or not you have actually requested the

 9     ammunition we're talking about.  The fact is your brigade received it;

10     right?

11        A.   Our Bratunac Brigade did not need this ammunition, 30-millimetre,

12     100-millimetre bullets, because we did not have these artillery pieces.

13     According to the document, somebody used this in order to have that

14     ammunition delivered in the area of Bratunac.  And that is why this is

15     stated, but I maintain that we had not asked for this ammunition or,

16     rather, we did not have artillery pieces for using this kind of

17     ammunition, 30 millimetres, 100 millimetres.

18        Q.   With respect, could you answer my question.  Did you receive it

19     or not?

20        A.   Well, according to the document that is stated that it arrived in

21     the Bratunac Brigade.  However, right now, I cannot remember.  It was a

22     long time ago.  Now, whether it specifically arrived in our storage

23     facilities or those of some other unit and the document says the

24     Bratunac Brigade.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask for a clarification on this

Page 33287

 1     point.

 2             Sir, I see on the original a signature that looks like yours and

 3     on the English version, they said personally received by Major Trisic.

 4     Would that not be your signature and are you not the Major Trisic who

 5     received this equipment?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we zoom in on the B/C/S, the lower right

 7     corner?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And even further.  Still further.  Yes, there we

 9     are.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need.  I can see

11     everything and I accept that this is my signature.  I signed this

12     document.  However, I don't remember.  It was a long time ago.  I don't

13     remember how this document arrived and when.  But it was not necessary

14     for the Bratunac Brigade.  That kind of ammunition was not needed for the

15     Bratunac Brigade.  This is all I'm saying.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I then ask another question.

17             Did you receive this kind -- ammunition on behalf of other units

18     other than the Bratunac Brigade?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably on behalf of another unit

20     of the Drina Corps.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I see here the name and place of receipt is

22     VP 7042 Bratunac.  What does that stand for?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we zoom out on the B/C/S.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a military post, the

25     military post of the Bratunac Brigade.

Page 33288

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  So that's the brigade of

 2     which you were logistics assistant?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Edgerton.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, I'm looking at the clock.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, before we break could I just have

 7     these two documents 06209 [sic] and 6306 admitted as Prosecution

 8     Exhibits, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned would be?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 06029 would be Exhibit P7221.

11             And 06306 will be Exhibit P7222.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, if you could just have a look at the

13     transcript and see because there's slight -- the first one, is that 06209

14     or 06029?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  06029.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P7221 and P7222 are admitted into evidence.

17             Mr. Trisic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

18     tomorrow morning at 9.30.  But before you leave this courtroom, I

19     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way

20     with whomever about your testimony, that is, testimony given today, or

21     testimony still to be given tomorrow.

22             If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you.  Thank you.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

Page 33289

 1     Wednesday, the 18th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 2     courtroom, I.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

 5                           March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.