Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33290

 1                           Wednesday, 18 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a

12     preliminary matter.

13             Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Morning -- good morning,

15     Your Honours.

16             May I just inform you, in accordance with the obligation I took

17     yesterday, we checked P7049 and we have no problem with that, that it be

18     admitted into evidence in that form.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  It's on the record.  But the

20     number ...

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be P7049.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think it was in -- it was admitted already

23     but we have now a new format?  I'm sorry.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thanks to my colleagues I'm on my feet again.

Page 33291

 1     P7049 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Then I would like to deal briefly with two matters, and when I

 3     start with the second one, the witness can be escorted in the courtroom.

 4             But the first one deals with the 92 ter motion for

 5     Witness GRM081.

 6             On the 12th of December of last year, the Defence filed a motion

 7     to admit excerpts of Witness GRM081's prior testimony pursuant to

 8     Rule 92 ter.

 9             On the 29th of December, the Prosecution filed its response,

10     requesting the admission of the cross-examination from the same prior

11     testimony, along with two associated exhibits.  The Prosecution had

12     earlier indicated that this could render the examination of the witness

13     in court unnecessary.  However, the Defence has now scheduled its

14     examination-in-chief for two hours, and in all likelihood this may affect

15     the need for cross-examination by the Prosecution because, apparently,

16     other evidence will come in and the Chamber wonders whether, under these

17     circumstances, the Prosecution still wishes to not cross-examine the

18     witness but just tender the testimony given in cross-examination in the

19     previous case.

20             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

21             The Prosecution still does not know what the additional evidence

22     exactly would be that would be led in the additional two hours.  We have

23     the -- we have the 65 ter summary and the tendered materials to go by.

24     So if there are material -- if there is information as led that is

25     additional that further details of that nature, it would affect the

Page 33292

 1     probability of doing some additional cross-examination beyond the

 2     tendered cross.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that you withdraw that request,

 4     that --

 5             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.

 7             Then the witness can be escorted in the courtroom while I'll deal

 8     with another matter, which is about the Rule 92 ter motion for

 9     Dragisa Masal.

10             The Chamber notes that on the 13th of November of last year, the

11     Defence filed a motion tendering 19 associated exhibits with witness

12     Dragisa Masal, and pursuant to the Chamber's guide-lines, the Chamber

13     hereby invites the Defence to consider reducing the number of associated

14     exhibits by, for example, tendering some of these documents with the

15     witness during examination-in-chief.

16             Then, since the witness is escorted in the courtroom, we leave it

17     for the time being.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to that.

20             Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, with respect to the previous matter

22     raised by the Court, it occurs to me that although Mr. Weber correctly

23     and the court correctly characterised the likelihood of what would

24     happen, we still -- if we were to withdraw the request we eliminate,

25     really, the possibility of no cross-examination.  By maintaining the

Page 33293

 1     request, should the Court grant it as we would ask, we still keep alive

 2     the possibility that the material covered during the two hours does not

 3     give rise to further -- so I think in -- out of -- for efficiency reasons

 4     we should maintain it and ask the Court to grant it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No one, of course, imposes any duty on the

 6     Prosecution to cross-examine the witness.  At the same time I think it

 7     was all more or less aiming at more or less administratively deal with

 8     the evidence of that witness which -- than may be different now.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  That's true.  We now revert to a more customary

10     situation, I think.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear for everyone.

12             Good morning, Mr. Trisic.  Apologies for not greeting you when

13     you entered the courtroom and continuing with other matters.

14             Mr. Trisic, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

15     solemn declaration --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you've given at the beginning of your testimony,

18     and the cross-examination will now be resumed.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, Ms. Edgerton.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

22                           WITNESS:  DRAGOSLAV TRISIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Trisic.

Page 33294

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I'd just like to remind you of something that you said yesterday

 3     with respect to -- or in the context of the discussions we were having

 4     over the two documents I showed you which now have the numbers P7221 and

 5     P7222.  One was the Lazic document and one was the document you

 6     recognised as having your signature on the bottom.

 7             And talking about these two documents, you said at transcript

 8     page 32286:  "Our Bratunac Brigade did not need this ammunition.

 9     30-millimetre, 100-millimetre bullets because we did not have these

10     artillery pieces."

11             So now that you've been reminded of that, I just want to have

12     another look at P7221, the Lazic document, and ask you a couple of

13     questions about what you did have.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could have P7221 on the screen again,

15     please.

16        Q.   So the very last -- the very last type of ammunition referred to

17     in this document is 120-millimetre mortars.  The Bratunac Brigade had

18     120-millimetre mortars; right.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And just go back one, you also had 82-millimetre mortars in your

21     inventory; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you had 122-millimetre Howitzers in your inventory; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes, we did have 122 Howitzers.

25        Q.   And you had 105-millimetre artillery weapons in your inventory --

Page 33295

 1     or weapons capable of using 105-millimetre artillery shells in your

 2     inventory; right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, we did have that.

 4        Q.   All right.  So I think that covers -- that covers just about

 5     everything on the list that deals with heavier weapons, so we'll just

 6     move on now to another topic.  I'd just like to ask you briefly about

 7     fuel.  All right?  Now, yesterday we talked about the process for supply

 8     and resupply of weapons, and it worked the same way for fuel, didn't it?

 9     Your units, Bratunac Brigade units, if they needed fuel, would ask the

10     brigade, you would ask the corps, who would then ask the Main Staff;

11     right?

12        A.   In principle, we were a brigade, and I, on behalf of the brigade,

13     asked the corps for fuel.  The further procedure doesn't matter.  If the

14     corps has fuel, they can provide some to us but they don't have to give

15     the requested quantity.  They can give as much as they can, so it can be

16     less than what we had requested.

17        Q.   Just putting the amounts aside for the moment, you've just agreed

18     that that would come through you in your capacity as logistics commander;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And so that being the case, perhaps you'll be able to agree with

22     me that the fuel that was requisitioned to evacuate the civilians from

23     Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995 came through you; right?

24        A.   Well, one part through us, and another through the corps command.

25     The logistics of the corps.

Page 33296

 1        Q.   When the fuel provided by the corps logistics group came to your

 2     stores in Bratunac, it came through you; right?  You were the guy in

 3     charge.

 4        A.   Not necessarily.  If necessary, I will explain how things went on

 5     that day, the 12th/13th of July.

 6        Q.   All right.  Just before you launch into any explanation, are you

 7     disagreeing with me that --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the previous answer indicates,

 9     Ms. Edgerton, that the witness disagrees because he says "not

10     necessarily."

11             So, therefore, he at least partly disagrees with you, and I'd

12     like to hear the explanation.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may explain.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             For instance, the fuel that arrived from the Drina Corps, that is

17     to say, this truck arrived directly to the parking lot, the Vihor

18     parking, at the entrance into Bratunac.  I said that in my statement.

19     The officers from corps logistics directly put that fuel into the buses

20     without us knowing about that.

21             The other part of the fuel that I mentioned that we received, 30

22     tonnes of diesel fuel, that was put into the Vihor fuel tank.  We took

23     care of that, and we put it onto buses, or into buses, and in this way,

24     we justified the consumption of the fuel received.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 33297

 1        Q.   So, Mr. Trisic, are you saying you didn't know that on the 12th

 2     of July, 1995 the Bratunac -- pardon me.  The Drina Corps logistics

 3     service provided the Bratunac Brigade with 12 -- 11.000 litres of diesel

 4     fuel?

 5        A.   Well, right this moment, I cannot recall.  I'd need to see the

 6     documents.  Possibly we requested that fuel.  We saw the documents

 7     yesterday.  So we asked for fuel.  Now I'd really have to take a look at

 8     the documents.  The fuel probably did arrive?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a clarification.

10             Mr. Trisic, are you able to tell us how many litres are there in

11     30 tonnes of diesel?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think it's around there,

13     sort of, 30.000 litres would be 30 tonnes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   So since you don't seem to have any recollection without seeing a

17     document, I'll just show you one, Mr. Trisic.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  And perhaps we could have a look at

19     65 ter number 06314.

20        Q.   Mr. Trisic, this is a fuel receipt dated the 12th of July, 1995

21     confirming Bratunac Brigade received 6.000 litres of fuel from the

22     Drina Corps Command, and you countersigned it?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That can be seen from this material list.

24        Q.   So, when you gave evidence just a few minutes ago saying:  "The

25     officers from the corps logistics directly put that fuel into the buses

Page 33298

 1     without us knowing about that," that wasn't correct.  The document shows,

 2     at the time, you knew you were receiving large amounts of fuel from the

 3     Drina Corps Command; right?

 4        A.   This is part of the fuel that we received in the brigade, this

 5     6.000 litres.  I said that the command, the logistics of the Drina Corps,

 6     directly I mean, at the Vihor parking lot, at the entrance into Bratunac,

 7     got fuel directly into buses and trucks.  So it's not the same fuel.

 8     This fuel arrived to us in the brigade, and the other part -- well, it

 9     was the traffic service of the corps headed by

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic, that did that at the Vihor parking lot.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I please have this document as a Prosecution

12     Exhibit, Your Honours?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7223, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   I'd like to move onto another area and forward in time,

18     Mr. Trisic, and I'd like to call up another document in that regard.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  It's P1516.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Trisic, you've seen this document before, haven't you,

21     when you testified previously at this Tribunal as a Defence witness in

22     the Blagojevic and in the Popovic cases; right?

23        A.   Yes, probably.

24        Q.   It's an excerpt from the Bratunac Brigade reports and meetings

25     journal.  And if we could go over to the next page, it refers to a

Page 33299

 1     meeting dated 16 October 1995, a working meeting of the commander and the

 2     Command Staff and the battalion commanders.  And when you saw this

 3     document during your testimony in the Blagojevic case, you confirmed you

 4     attended the meeting.  You see your name there in the third line down

 5     after the citation to Colonel Blagojevic; don't you?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   So you were at the meeting.

 8        A.   Well, since that is what is written there, then I guess I was.

 9     It's hard for me to remember that detail; it was such a long time ago.

10     But I accept that I was there.

11        Q.   And if you go a little bit further down in the document to the

12     very bottom line, the very last line in both languages, English and

13     B/C/S, you see Mr. Nikolic reporting that they are currently engaged in

14     tasks issued by the Army of Republika Srpska Main Staff and in brackets

15     the word "asanacija" in your language, translated as "hygiene and

16     sanitation measures" in English.

17             So you would agree, then, that on the 16th October 1995, you

18     learned that the Main Staff had directed the reburial of bodies of the

19     men killed at Srebrenica; right?

20        A.   Excuse me.  Nikolic said that, and there was no comment.  Now

21     what was being done, sanitization of the terrain, I have no comment.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you learned at

23     that time that this happened.  You were not asked for comment.

24             Did you learn that at that time, that the Main Staff had

25     directed, as we see here, the hygiene and sanitation measures?

Page 33300

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found out then.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   And just if I can take that one step further to go back to my

 5     original question.  You would agree, then, in light of the answer that

 6     you've given to His Honour Judge Orie that on this date, 16 October 1995,

 7     you learned that the Main Staff had directed the reburial of bodies of

 8     the men killed at Srebrenica; right?

 9        A.   Well, I cannot say burial or reburial.  In my statement, I said -

10     now was it in Srebrenica? - that's not stated.  But in my statement, I

11     said that what happened, happened in the village of Kravica this

12     incident, excessive - how do I put this? - this attack against a guard,

13     and there was gun-fire, and there were casualties, there were dead and

14     I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You're moving away from the question.  The question

16     clearly was that whether, at that meeting, and having looked at the

17     report, whether you then learned that the Main Staff had directed the

18     reburial of bodies.  You're not invited to explain what may have caused

19     those persons to die but whether you learned that the Main Staff had

20     directed the reburial of bodies of those men that were killed.

21             Did you learn that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It just turns out that's what

23     Captain Nikolic said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on paper.  The question was whether you then

25     learned - and I use the words of the question - that the Main Staff of

Page 33301

 1     the VRS had directed the reburial of the bodies.

 2             Did you learn that or did you not learn that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, I heard that at that

 4     meeting from Captain Nikolic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:

 7        Q.   So the answer, then, is yes, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes, it is, yes.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  I have nothing further then, Your Honours.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Trisic, you just referred to Kravica.  You

15     discussed that yesterday already.  I would like to ask you about

16     paragraph 25 of your statement.  There you say:  "I heard that shots were

17     fired at the Kravica agricultural co-operative."

18             Can you explain that?  What did you hear?  Did you hear with your

19     own eyes [sic], the shots being fired, or did you hear rumours or stories

20     about the shots fired at Kravica warehouse?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard rumours, as you put

22     it.  There were stories about shooting at the Kravica farm.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means everything what you know about the

24     incident, as you call it, in Kravica warehouse, that was told by others.

25     It's not what you personally observed or heard with your own ears;

Page 33302

 1     correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I also have one or more questions to you.

 5             But I'm first inquiring with Ms. Edgerton whether the questions

 6     about fuel being provided is in relation to paragraph 23 of the

 7     statement, I take it?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  It wasn't, in particular, but it is certainly a

 9     similar subject matter, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In that context, yes.

11             Witness, in paragraph 23 of your statement, you say something

12     about the need to transport civilians.  You said you also learned that

13     one fuel tanker from the Drina Corps Command had arrived because the

14     Vihor enterprise pump which was "providing fuel for the buses

15     transporting Muslim civilians from Potocari could not provide all the

16     fuel that was needed."

17             Now, who owned the fuel that was stored in the Vihor enterprise

18     pump?  Was it owned by the company, or was it owned by your brigade?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That fuel tanker was property of

20     the Vihor company.  We, as a brigade, we did not have a fuel tank.  We

21     did not have a fuel storage, and that's why we used the services of the

22     Vihor transport company.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my -- do I then understand that the fuel

24     which was in there was yours, although you used the tank capacity of that

25     company?

Page 33303

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Records were kept.  The fuel in the

 2     fuel tank belonged to the -- both to the company and to us, but we knew

 3     what quantity belonged to us, and that's what we used.  We used only the

 4     quantity that belonged to us, and we could easily tell how much we owned

 5     by consulting our fuel records.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that part of the fuel was

 7     yours and part of the fuel was owned by the company.

 8             So if I read paragraph 23 now with this additional information,

 9     you're telling us that the quantity of fuel at your disposal, though

10     stored in the tanks of the Vihor enterprise, were not sufficient for the

11     transportation of Muslim civilians and that, therefore, the Drina Corps

12     directly delivered additional fuel for those transports.

13             Is that how I have to understand paragraph 23?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The overall transport was organised

15     by the corps.  We were there just to assist.  We were there to see where

16     fuel could be stored for further use in the buses.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But your own fuel was used for that as well, isn't

18     it?  For the transport.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.  We could not keep our

20     fuel.  There was a requirement to transport the population.  The Muslim

21     population requested that.  A decision was made to transport them.  We

22     couldn't then say, We will not give you our fuel, in view of the fact

23     that General Mladic had already agreed on that with the Muslims.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Your fuel was used, and in addition to that,

25     directly the corps command provided additional fuel for that

Page 33304

 1     transportation.

 2             That's, in short, how it was?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of the Dutch battalion

 4     gave us a fuel tank full of fuel to assist us in order to provide the

 5     full quantity of fuel needed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have no further questions on this matter.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination for the witness?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honours.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] The fuel that you received, as you say, from the

11     Dutch battalion, where did you receive it?

12        A.   We received it in the Vihor transport company, and it was loaded

13     into their fuel tank.  I'm talking about the Vihor fuel station.

14        Q.   That fuel that you received from the Dutch battalion, was it used

15     to transport the civilian population to Tuzla?

16        A.   Yes.  We received it by way of assistance which was needed to

17     secure a sufficient quantity of the fuel for this transport to Tuzla.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up

19     65 ter 06315.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, where does this arise, the UNPROFOR

21     fuel?  Does that arise from think questions that were put to the witness

22     in cross-examination?  He spoke about it, that's clear, but was he asked

23     about it?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honours.  The

25     last question that was put by the Trial Chamber referred to that, and

Page 33305

 1     there was also a -- a question put by the Prosecutor about that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for the last question put by me, I didn't ask

 3     about it.  The witness spontaneously came up with it.  I didn't ask any

 4     questions about the UNPROFOR fuel.  And we'll check whether a specific

 5     question was raised in that respect yesterday by Ms. Edgerton.

 6             Perhaps you can assist, Ms. Edgerton.  Did you ask specifically

 7     about the UNPROFOR fuel?  It's my recollection -- it's not my

 8     recollection although the witness said something about 30 tonnes and I

 9     think 25 tonnes, but ...

10             MS. EDGERTON:  While I didn't ask specifically about UNPROFOR

11     fuel, Your Honour, in my submission, there is based on the

12     cross-examination, about fuel which we just went through today with one

13     document, there is some latitude available for a re-direct on issues of

14     fuel.  Of course, I will be very attentive as to how far that goes --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm specifically talking about UNPROFOR fuel.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  No, I did not have a question about UNPROFOR fuel,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither did I.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that a question was put yesterday, asking, in

21     general terms, about who provided fuel, and, therefore, you may proceed,

22     Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

24     this decision.

25        Q.   You see a document before you.  I would kindly ask you to look at

Page 33306

 1     the B/C/S text on the left-hand side.  The date is 13 July 1995.  You can

 2     see that in the upper left corner.  And where it says military post, you

 3     can read 7042.  And below that, again the title of the sender, UNHCR

 4     Srebrenica, and -- and recipient 7042, Bratunac.

 5             First question:  Who is 7042 Bratunac?

 6        A.   This is the military post of the Light Infantry Brigade in

 7     Bratunac.

 8        Q.   The next column is receipt of diesel fuel D-2.  And to the right,

 9     quantity received:  30.000 litres.

10             Is this the fuel that was received around that time?  And you

11     spoke about that as something that was needed for the transport of the

12     civilian population from Potocari to Tuzla?

13        A.   Yes, yes, that's the fuel which was received and used for the

14     transport of the civilian population.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to look

17     at another document --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'll intervene again.

19             First of all, I now carefully verified, you asked a question

20     which I just referred to.  It was not the Prosecution.  You asked

21     yesterday a question about -- from whom fuel was received.  You were the

22     only one.  So, therefore, it does not arise specifically out of

23     cross-examination.

24             At the same time, yesterday the witness testified that they

25     received 30 tonnes of diesel fuel from UNPROFOR.

Page 33307

 1             Today -- and then the witness said they received 23 and a half

 2     thousand litres; 23.300 from UNHCR so you were the only one who raised

 3     the matter specifically and now you put to the witness a document which

 4     indicates that 30.000 litres were received from UNHCR, not from UNPROFOR.

 5     You should have done that yesterday by yourself.  Knowing of this

 6     document, you should have further examined the witness on whether they

 7     had received the 30.000 litres from UNPROFOR or from UNHCR.

 8             Now, I'll let you go with the next document, but please keep in

 9     mind that the Chamber appreciates orderly proceeding.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now I would like

11     to call up 65 ter 04164.

12        Q.   Mr. Trisic, what you can see before you is a document which I

13     would like to discuss with you.

14             Could you please tell us what is this?  This is a paper

15     documenting the receipt and issuance of fuels and lubricants?

16        A.   This is about the issuance of fuel to buses, i.e., vehicles that

17     needed fuel for transport.  You can see the registration plate number of

18     the vehicles, and the military post, the date, 14 July 1995, the quantity

19     of the fuel received, and the driver's signature.

20        Q.   In the lower right corner, as far as we can see, there is a

21     handwritten name after the text:  Order, issuer.  Please pay attention to

22     the lower right corner.  Try and see if you can read the name of the

23     person who gave the order.

24        A.   Under 32, it says Tomislav Basevic and below that, 33,

25     M. Vasiljevic.

Page 33308

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be instructed to speak

 2     into the microphone.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do these names ring a bell?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please speak more directly into

 6     the microphone.  Perhaps the microphone could be slightly adjusted if the

 7     witness looks at his screen.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat?  Under 32 it says

 9     Tomislav Basevic.  And under 33, M. Vasiljevic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do these names ring a bell?

12        A.   Tomislav Basevic was a member of the technical service of the

13     Drina Corps.

14             As for Vasiljevic, I can't remember him.  I don't know who he is.

15        Q.   Thank you.  When you see the column where it says "issued,

16     received," under 24, as well as quantities of the fuel issued and

17     received, could you please tell us whether you have any immediate

18     knowledge as to where that fuel was issued to the persons who signed as

19     the recipients of the fuel under 25?

20        A.   Twenty-five?  Since Lieutenant-Colonel Tomislav Basevic signed

21     this, this fuel was not issued from the fuel tank of the Vihor company.

22     It was probably issued at the parking lot of the Vihor company where the

23     fuel tank of the Drina Corps was located.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

Page 33309

 1     tender these two documents, 65 ter 06315 and 65 ter 04164 into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 06315 will be

 4     Exhibit D940.

 5             And 65 ter number 04164 will be Exhibit D941.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

 7             Witness, could you tell us what military post code 7469 stands

 8     for?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was a question by the Presiding Judge for

10     you, Witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer that question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  You said military

13     post 7469.  It's neither here nor there.  These -- or, rather, this is

14     proof that buses and vehicles came from various military posts.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm asking you simply whether you know what

16     military post code 7469 stands for.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That the vehicle is property of

18     that military post.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What is that military post?  That's my question.

20     Not whether the vehicle is owned by ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I leave it to that, but you asked

23     the witness about what one could conclude from column 25.  The witness

24     then said that on the basis of what he saw under 32, he drew some

25     conclusions, and you left it to that.

Page 33310

 1             Therefore, he's dealing with a matter not the matter you raised,

 2     and I just draw your attention to that.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Trisic, you were shown a document which I would like to call

 6     up again.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P1516.

 8        Q.   This is a report or, rather, a copy of the minutes dated

 9     16 October of the Bratunac Brigade.

10             Do you have any recollection whether, on that occasion,

11     Momir Nikolic described the sanitization activity which was under way,

12     very specifically?

13        A.   No, I have no recollection, no specific recollection.  That was

14     such a long time ago that it is impossible to remember specific details.

15        Q.   When it comes to your military education, is it of the kind that

16     you would be able to tell the Trial Chamber how do you define the term

17     sanitization or hygiene measure -- measures of the area?

18        A.   I don't know how to define it.  It would be the cleaning of the

19     area.  Something of that kind?

20        Q.   Did you know whether in the area where the 28th Division column

21     passed and where combat had taken place, there was a need to, as you say,

22     clean the area?

23        A.   I don't know that.

24        Q.   Did your brigade have any particular engagement with regard to

25     the cleaning of the areas that you would know of?

Page 33311

 1        A.   The brigade was not engaged in that way.  I don't know anything

 2     about that.

 3        Q.   And let me finish with the question:  Did you personally have an

 4     occasion to see any document which originated from the Main Staff of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska and that dealt with the obligation of any unit

 6     to be engaged in the sanitization of the area?

 7        A.   No, I did not have occasion to see any such document originating

 8     from a superior command.

 9        Q.   Mr. Trisic, thank you for your answers on behalf of the Defence

10     of General Mladic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, which have no

12     further questions for this witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Judge Moloto has a question for you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Trisic, you were being asked by Mr. Stojanovic

16     about whether the 28th Division column passed and where combat had take

17     place.

18             Now, in relation to this document that's on the screen, do you

19     know whether the 28th Division was anywhere around there in October of

20     1995?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In October 1995?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mm-hm.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where it could have

24     been.  It wasn't in our area, I think.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in this meeting of the 16th of October 1995,

Page 33312

 1     Nikolic is talking about sanitation that you have just been tasked to do;

 2     isn't it so?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have information as

 4     to where this was carried out.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... where it was

 6     carried out.  I'm saying you have agreed that this statement by Nikolic

 7     on the 16th of October in the meeting is referring to you -- your -- your

 8     people being tasked to do some sanitation in October of 1995.

 9             Am I right?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That we were carrying out the

11     sanitization of the terrain?  No.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking whether you carried out the

13     sanitation.  I am saying you are being told in this meeting by Nikolic

14     that the Main Staff of the VRS has tasked your unit with sanitation.

15     He's telling you this statement on the 16th of October, 1995.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not carry out sanitization

17     of the terrain.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you.  I stop you there.  Please listen to

19     my question.  I'm not asking you whether you carried out sanitation.  I'm

20     saying you are having a meeting on the 16th of October, you're being told

21     that the VRS Main Staff has given an order that you take -- undertake

22     sanitation measures.  This is on the 16th of October.  And on that date,

23     you're saying the 28th Division was nowhere in your area.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

25     No speaking aloud.  You may consult with counsel at inaudible volume.

Page 33313

 1             Please proceed.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

 3             Are you going to answer my question?  If you don't want to answer

 4     or if you don't know -- in fact, you cannot not know.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, Your Honour,

 6     Judge, how to express myself.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If you don't know how to express yourself,

 8     thank you so much.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I have --

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, I apologise for what might

11     be construed as an interruption.  I'm just noting the time.  Just for

12     purposes of scheduling, and I wanted to let Your Honours know based on

13     what we just heard, I would have another seven to ten minutes' worth of

14     questions after the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will do that after the break.

16             I would like, however, to put one other question to the witness

17     before the break.

18             Witness, Captain Nikolic, was he within your brigade?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was in our brigade.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we read in this document that Captain Nikolic

21     says, We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the ... Main Staff on

22     sanitacija.

23             You emphasised several times that your brigade was not involved

24     in that at all.  Do you have any explanation why Captain Nikolic is

25     recorded as saying, We are engaged; whereas, you say the brigade was not

Page 33314

 1     engaged.

 2             Do you have an explanation for why your testimony squarely

 3     contradicts what we see in this document?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assert that as assistant

 5     commander for logistics in the Bratunac Brigade, I did not know, I was

 6     not informed that this sanitization of the terrain was being carried out.

 7     Captain Nikolic worked in the intelligence security service, so I cannot

 8     decipher what it was that he meant, that he would be doing it, somebody

 9     else would be doing it, but as assistant commander for logistics of the

10     brigade did not carry out sanitization, and I was not aware of this being

11     sanitization.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I hear that.  But you said the brigade was not

13     involved.  But what you're telling us now is that you have no information

14     whatsoever about an involvement of the brigade, although, by not knowing,

15     you cannot exclude that the brigade was involved.

16             Is that how we have to understand your testimony?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, as assistant commander for

18     logistics, did not have any vehicles and did not provide any vehicles for

19     these obligations.  Not fuel either or personnel.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You were not involved; that's understood.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We'll take a break.

23             Ms. Edgerton, you'll have a few more minutes after the break.

24             You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in 20

25     minutes.

Page 33315

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 11.00.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

 7     courtroom.

 8             In order to avoid whatever confusion, when earlier today, P7049

 9     was admitted into evidence, it was Rule 65 ter 14008a that was admitted,

10     and not the 65 ter document that was previously uploaded and for which

11     the number P7049 was reserved.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

15                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

16        Q.   Mr. Trisic, I want to ask you some further questions based on the

17     answers you've just given to my colleague.  Just to see if we can tie up

18     one brief matter with respect to D941, you were asked a question, in

19     fact, by Their Honours about a certain military post number and it was a

20     VP 7469.  That's actually, in fact, that's the military post number for

21     the Zvornik Brigade isn't it?

22        A.   Believe it or not, I cannot remember.

23        Q.   And -- all right.  That's fine.  And we'll go on to the next

24     larger area I want to deal with.

25             Just before the break, you effectively told Their Honours that

Page 33316

 1     this asanacija -- that did you not know and were not informed about the

 2     asanacija of the terrain before the 16th of October; right?  That's your

 3     position you didn't know about it because that what's you said?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Good.  So I want to ask you some questions about that.

 6             First of all, I'd like you to confirm the evidence that you gave

 7     in the Popovic cases during your examination-in-chief about the bodies

 8     from Kravica.  And I can even show it to you, if you want.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 32290.

10             We can go directly to e-court, page 61.

11        Q.   Just to try and speed things up, I want to show it to you.

12             Now I'm going read this to you.  The question at line 4:  "And

13     tell me" -- this is to Mr. Lazarevic:

14             "Q.  And tell me whether if at any point in time you learned that

15     the bodies of those killed in the Kravica farmer's co-operative were

16     buried in a grave in the village of Glogova?"

17             Your answer is:  "Yes.  I did have that information a day or two

18     afterwards.  I found out from my friend who was engaged on that task that

19     the burial was completed of those who were killed in the Glogova village

20     section."

21             So you stand by that evidence?  You gave it in your

22     examination-in-chief as a Defence witness in Popovic.  You stand by that

23     evidence; right.

24        A.   That was sometime in the month of July.  A friend of mine who

25     worked -- who was engaged on this sanitization said that to me.  That was

Page 33317

 1     then.

 2        Q.   So -- so my question is:  You stand by the evidence you gave in

 3     the Popovic case; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So what's the name of the friend who was engaged on

 6     that task?  In the burial.

 7        A.   That's a friend of mine who worked in civilian protection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you were asked the name.  Could you please

 9     tell us who it was.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name, Dragan.  Dragan Mirkovic.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now I just want to remind you for a couple of minutes

13     of what was going on in September and October 1995 in the area of

14     responsibility of your brigade and surrounding.  What was going on was

15     that thousands of Bosnian Muslim men who were -- had been killed at

16     Branjevo, in Kozluk, Petkovci Dam, Orahovac and Kravica were moved from

17     mass graves in Bratunac and Zvornik to other mass graves in Bratunac and

18     Zvornik, and that included over a thousand people who had been buried in

19     Glogova.

20             So I'm not going -- I'm going to get to my question in a minute

21     but I just wanted to remind you of that evidence.  And I want to read to

22     you what one witness who didn't testify in this trial but was interviewed

23     by the Office of the Prosecutor in November 2001 said about what was

24     going on, and then I will ask you a question.

25             That witness said, in the context of that operation:  "There were

Page 33318

 1     lorries transporting bodies for hours.  Even children along the side of

 2     the road were finding arms and legs.  I do know that," he said that.

 3             And then he was asked:  "Did you see that?

 4             And he answered:  "I didn't see that, but I could smell it.  I

 5     could smell the stench."

 6             And then he was asked:  "Where were you when you could smell it?

 7             "I was in the flat," he replied.

 8             And then the question was:  "In Bratunac?"

 9             And he said:  "Yes."

10             And then he continued, saying:  "I know what the stench was when

11     I smelled it because it's a very characteristic smell of a human body

12     which is decomposing."

13             Now, here's my question, Mr. Trisic:  I'd like you to explain how

14     it's possible when you had an apartment on the main road in Bratunac,

15     50 metres across the street from the Hotel Fontana, that you didn't know

16     about the decomposing bodies that were being transferred throughout the

17     municipality at that time?  Because everybody knew.

18        A.   I said and I maintain that, regardless of where I live, I didn't

19     feel that or see that.  Most of the time I was at the brigade command so

20     I still maintain that I did not see that or feel that, what you said,

21     this unpleasant smell.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I have nothing further, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

25             Witness, Mr. Trisic, this concludes your evidence in this case.

Page 33319

 1     We'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague - it's a long

 2     journey - and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,

 3     were put to you by the parties and were put to you by the Bench.  I wish

 4     you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge, sir.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And Mr. McCloskey and I will now take our leave

 8     with Your Honours' permission.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the Prosecution is still represented

10     in this courtroom, Mr. Weber and Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're on course for getting the response

12     regarding the extension of time for tomorrow.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, you said yesterday tomorrow or the day

14     after tomorrow, so that still is within your time estimate.

15             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

16             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honours.  The next witness would be

17     General Dragisa Masal.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Good morning again.

21             The Prosecution just had one matter before the witness takes the

22     stand.  The Prosecution requests that this witness get a 90(E)

23     admonishment, actually before he begins his testimony based on the

24     contents of the statement.  A specific example would be paragraph 28.  I

25     don't know if the Defence has any view on this.

Page 33320

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  As Your Honours know, we have always left that to

 4     the discretion of the Chamber to determine whether 90(E) is appropriate

 5     or not.  We don't have an objection to the proposal.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And, as you know, the Chamber not knowing what

 7     questions to be put to the witness always leaves it to the parties to

 8     consider whether it would be appropriate or not, and apparently you do

 9     not challenge this provisional judgement that it would be appropriate by

10     the Prosecution.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Masal.  Before you give evidence,

13     the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now

14     handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  DRAGISA MASAL

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

20             Mr. Masal, before the Defence will start its examination, I'd

21     like to draw your attention to Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and

22     Evidence, and I'll read it for you.

23             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

24     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

25     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

Page 33321

 1     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

 2     offence other than false testimony."

 3             In short, if you feel that an answer might tend to incriminate

 4     yourself, a truthful answer, you may address me and ask to be relieved

 5     from answering that question.

 6             Is that clear to you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, perfectly clear.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you know that you're -- you've just given

 9     the solemn declaration.  You know that if you answer a question it should

10     be a truthful answer.

11             You'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic is a member

12     of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, and you'll find Mr. Ivetic standing to

13     your left.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  With the assistance of the

16     usher if we could have a hard copy of the statement first shown to

17     Prosecution counsel and eventually given to the witness.  It will help us

18     as we get to that stage.

19                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20        Q.   Good day, General.  Can I ask you to first state your full name,

21     first and last, for the purposes of entering the same into our record.

22        A.   Good day, Your Honours.  Good day to all present here in this

23     courtroom.  I am Dragisa Masal, born on the 20th of November, 1951, in

24     the village of Vardiste, municipality of Visegrad, Republika Srpska.  I

25     have completed elementary school and high school.  That I completed in

Page 33322

 1     the place where I was born.

 2        Q.   Sir, I don't think we need that additional information at this

 3     moment.

 4             Did you have occasion to give a witness statement to the members

 5     of General Mladic's Defence team?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, usually it goes better if you have the band

 8     on top of your head rather than behind.  At the top.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up in e-court 1D1642.

10        Q.   And, sir, you have been given a hard copy in front of you.  You

11     can either follow on the monitor or on that hard copy.  And I'd like to

12     first ask you if you recognise the handwritten signature on the first

13     page of the same, if you could tell us whose signature that is?

14        A.   Yes, I recognise the signature.  It is my very own.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can turn to the last page of the document

16     in both languages.

17        Q.   Sir, there is also a handwritten signature on this page.  Could

18     you identify for us the author of that signature?

19        A.   Likewise, my signature.

20        Q.   And there's a handwritten date on here that looks like the 28th

21     of July, 2014.  Does that date match your recollection of the date that

22     you would have signed this statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion

25     to read the same, to see if everything is written correctly or if

Page 33323

 1     corrections are needed?

 2        A.   Yes, I read the text, and I spotted certain technical errors.  In

 3     essence, they do not alter the sense of my statement.  However, there are

 4     technical errors.

 5        Q.   I'd like to go through some of those with you now.  If we could

 6     first turn to page 2 in both versions and focus on paragraph number 2,

 7     and is there any correction that you need to make in relation to the

 8     posts that you held before the outbreak of the war?

 9        A.   In paragraph 2, line 2, the words "battalion commander" should be

10     deleted because I was not a battalion commander.

11        Q.   And in this same paragraph, are there any corrections needed to

12     the last part of the paragraph relating to your position after the war?

13        A.   In the last line of the same paragraph, it reads:  "...sector

14     chief at the newly formed... staff."

15             This should read:  At the newly formed General Staff of the Army

16     of Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Okay.  And now, sir, in relation to the first sentence in this

18     paragraph, I note that the English translation says:  "Before the war

19     started in the former Yugoslavia, I held ..."

20             Can you -- whereas the Serbian seems to have "former JNA" instead

21     of "former Yugoslavia."  Can you confirm which -- which is the

22     appropriate entry for this paragraph?

23        A.   In my view, it should say:  "Before the beginning of the war, in

24     the former JNA, I discharged duties."  This means that I discharged

25     certain duties in the former JNA.

Page 33324

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now on page 7 in the Serbian, page 8 in the English, and

 2     paragraph 16, what correction do you have in relation to the information

 3     that you had received from Gorazde which is reflected in this paragraph?

 4        A.   In line 2 of this paragraph, it says that the Muslim civilian

 5     population in Gorazde, and so on and so forth.  This should be replaced

 6     by the following:  "The Serbian civilian population in Gorazde was used

 7     for military purpose, i.e. -- purposes, i.e., for performing some works

 8     in the rear."

 9        Q.   Okay.  And now in relation to paragraph 17 on the same page, what

10     correction did you wish to inform us of in relation to this paragraph?

11        A.   Please bear with me.

12             In line 4:  "The Muslim forces are kept under permanent blockade

13     in order to prevent their insertion ..."

14             This is how the paragraph should read.  At the moment the word

15     "to prevent" is missing.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now if we can turn to page 8 in the Serbian, page 10 in

17     the English and focus on paragraph 21, and now that we have it on the

18     screen, do you have a correction in relation to what is contained in this

19     paragraph?

20        A.   Please bear with me.

21             In line 1 of this paragraph, it says:  "I was often briefed

22     through regular combat reports," there is a grammatical error in B/C/S.

23     In B/C/S, the word "through" is used improperly.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you clarify how it -- how should it read now?

Page 33325

 1     What is the correct wording?

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Could you repeat, sir, the correct wording in B/C/S, in Serbian.

 4        A.   I shall try to explain.  "I was often briefed via regular combat

 5     reports" or "through regular combat reports."  In the current B/C/S

 6     version, the word used is "from regular combat reports."

 7             But that would mean that a combat report is a living being that

 8     submits certain information to me.  However, a combat report is a

 9     document which somebody sends and that somebody is a subordinated

10     command.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that the English version is

12     correct and that there may be a grammatical error in the original but

13     that doesn't create any confusion at this moment, I would say.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If we could look at page 11 in the English, page 10

17     in the Serbian and look at paragraph 23.

18             I note, sir, that in the second-to-last sentence of English the

19     word "General Staff" appears but in the Serbian we only see the initials

20     GS.  Can you tell us to what entity the GS refers to as contained in your

21     Serbian original.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see the transcript reflects on line 10

24     of this page that we're looking at paragraph 23.  However, I believe it

25     may be paragraph 25.

Page 33326

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  Nope.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  23, fourth line from the bottom in English, talks

 3     about General Staff.

 4             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             MR. WEBER:  I missed that then.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's apparently what are you referring to.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  That's right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's let the witness answer the question.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   It's in the top line in the B/C/S since 23 started on the last

12     page.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what the GS as you find it in the

14     middle of the top line on this page in B/C/S what it stands for?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Main Staff.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   And now if we can go to page 13 in English, page 11 in Serbian,

21     and now look at paragraph 25.  And if you could tell us, sir, what

22     correction you feel is necessary to, I believe, the last sentence in this

23     paragraph.

24        A.   The penultimate word.  I shall read the beginning of that phrase:

25     "And the corps would then fail to include this in its report."

Page 33327

 1             This is incorrect.  "And the corps in its report does not include

 2     this subordinated commands report to the superior commands and the

 3     superior commands inform the subordinated commands."

 4             That's the essence of this error and this sentence.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And if we can turn to page 13 in the Serbian and page 14

 6     in the English, and focus on paragraph 28 of your statement, what

 7     correction do you have that you wish to bring to our attention in

 8     relation to this paragraph?

 9        A.   Please bear with me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  While the witness is thinking about it, Mr. Ivetic,

11     for the previous correction, "the failed to be replaced" by "not

12     include," is that in the B/C/S also incorrectly phrased?

13             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Or is it just the English version that does not --

15             MR. IVETIC:  I thought it was just the English, but I'll have to

16     check just to be sure.

17             I might have to go back to that one because I don't see that it's

18     actually clear from the answer of the witness whether it's a grammatical

19     error or a substantive correction.  I will go back to that.

20        Q.   If we could first finish up with paragraph 28, sir, what is the

21     correction that you had in there.

22        A.   I'm still looking.  I would need to ...

23        Q.   If I can assist, the -- the third line of 28 --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- in the Serbian version, that reads as follows:  "Gives basic

Page 33328

 1     tasks to the units which are carrying out orders."

 2        A.   Okay.

 3        Q.   What -- what, if any, corrections are there to that phrase in

 4     paragraph 28.

 5        A.   "Gives basic tasks to the units which are carrying out orders."

 6             It should read:  "Gives basic tasks to the units which are

 7     carrying out the operation," or "which are engaged in combat."

 8        Q.   Now, if we can go back to page 13 in the English, page 11 in the

 9     Serbian, the paragraph in question is paragraph 25, and I would ask you

10     again to explain for us what precisely is the correction that you

11     indicated should be in the last part of that paragraph, the last -- was

12     it the last line?  I --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be better to read the correct version of

14     the full last sentence.  Sometimes subordinate units ..."

15             MR. IVETIC:  That's an excellent suggestion.

16        Q.   Sir, could you read how the last sentence of paragraph 25 ought

17     to read, including your correction.

18        A.   Yes.  "Sometimes subordinated units of the brigade reported to

19     the corps about a particular event, incident and the like, and the corps

20     would then not inform the Main Staff about that."

21             The first part of the sentence is correct.  Brigade does, indeed,

22     report to the corps.  According to the same analogy, i.e., according to

23     the military terminology the corps command should inform the Main Staff.

24     The principle in military subordination implies that the subordinate unit

25     reports to the superior unit whereas a superior unit informs the

Page 33329

 1     subordinate unit.  The error arises from military terminology and the

 2     notion of military subordination.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And how should the sentence read now?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just read out the correct

 5     verse of the sentence.  It should read:  "And the corps would then fail

 6     to include this in its information to the General Staff."

 7             Not in its report to the General Staff, but in its information to

 8     the General Staff.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And do we then have to understand that they

10     sometimes do not include it in the information to the Main Staff, or that

11     it's never included, or is it that just it could be left out sometimes?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is only about

13     terminology.  The penultimate word, "a subordinate" cannot send

14     information to the superior.  A subordinate unit reports to the superior

15     unit.  That is the difference in terminology between the word "informs,"

16     on the one hand, and "reports" on the other.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, any further communication with the

19     public gallery will result in you being removed from the courtroom.

20             Is that clear to you?  You better turn in ... and address ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I leave it to you to clarify the matter,

23     but to say that it -- of course, this Chamber is not only interested in

24     terminology, this Chamber is interested in substance.

25             Please proceed.

Page 33330

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I can tell you that at issue is the

 2     difference between two Serbian words, if I can find the Serbian version

 3     in front of me, which the witness has explained in Serbian and we've

 4     gotten the translation of.  He has identified the second to last word in

 5     that sentence that currently in the B/C/S version reads "obavesti" and is

 6     indicating that it should read "izvesti."  But we're not getting

 7     translation of either, so that doesn't really help the English speakers.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It certainly does not.  Of course, what the Chamber

 9     is interested in is what information reached the higher-up levels.  I

10     mean, that's basically what I think is important for us to know and

11     whether sometimes the format or the form in which that happened may be

12     relevant, important, but most of all is what information reached the

13     higher levels.

14             MR. IVETIC:  And that I believe is contained in --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Both versions?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move on.  If you feel that further

18     clarification is needed, you'll certainly find a way to find that in your

19     further examination.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could turn to page 5 in both versions, we

23     had uploaded, I believe yesterday, a new English translation from CLSS to

24     correct -- there was a missing paragraph that was contained in the

25     Serbian signed original that was not in -- a subparagraph, I should say,

Page 33331

 1     that was not in the English translation, and in uploading that

 2     translation that we had from CLSS, I have been advised and I have now

 3     confirmed that there is now in paragraph 11 the first sentence in the

 4     English is not in the signed original.  We will -- the Prosecution is

 5     aware of this; they're the ones who pointed it out to me.  Therefore we

 6     will have to correct the English translation and upload a new translation

 7     and I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention and put it on the

 8     record so that we will not be tendering the document after the 92 ter

 9     procedure is done, we'll be tendering it to be marked for identification

10     once we finished the remaining aspects of that procedure.  But, of

11     course, this is something that is not -- there's no correction to be made

12     to the original.  It's just the translation that has that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The translation contains lines which are not -- do

14     not appear in the original?

15             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.  Not lines, a

16     sentence, the first sentence in 11.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, that would trigger a few questions on how

18     possibly can lines which do not appear in the original suddenly appear on

19     a translation.

20             Has the original, as signed, been submitted to CLSS?

21             MR. IVETIC:  It has Your Honour and this is -- both the

22     translation that was missing the second subparagraph in paragraph 27 and

23     this one are CLSS translations, is my understanding.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The English version now contains a long first

Page 33332

 1     sentence which was not contained in the attachment to the 92 ter motion.

 2             What I see now on the screen is -- in the English version, I

 3     think complete in comparison to the previously submitted version.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Mr. Ivetic, could you give us -- we'll

 5     reserve a number for the document.  Could you inform the Chamber in

 6     detail about what happened with an original which was partly not

 7     translated then and other lines were apparently added in the translation

 8     which really comes as a surprise.  Because the interpreter -- the

 9     translator would then have invented new text and that really is so

10     surprising that the Chamber would like to know how this happened.  We

11     have your initial explanation on the screen now.  We'll reserve a number

12     for the statement.

13             MR. IVETIC:  We haven't yet done the 92 ter procedure in full.

14     It's too early to reserve a number.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Reserving a number for admission I would agree, but

16     I think it would be good to seek attestations.  Of course, at the same

17     time, Mr. Ivetic, the issue is attestation to what exactly, because we

18     seek an attestation to what the witness has read and we have to know

19     exactly what he reviewed whether that was the version that is now on our

20     screens.

21             MR. IVETIC:  It is.  In Serbian.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay fine.

23             MR. IVETIC:  He obviously did not read the English.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I do understand that.  But just to be sure that

25     the questions that were raised a minute ago ask for great accuracy in

Page 33333

 1     this respect.

 2             Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just so we have a clear record, the

 4     Prosecution's position is that the first sentence should be redacted up

 5     to the word or the phrase "civilian population to," then the period.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that is in the English you would say.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed with the

10     attestations and ... take -- take the B/C/S as the basis for it, if

11     that's what the witness reviewed.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sir, apart from these corrections we've gone through today, do

15     you stand by the remainder of your statement as signed in the Serbian

16     language as being accurate?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If I were to ask you questions today on the same topics as in

19     your written statement, would your answers today be, in substance -- be

20     the same in substance as written in that statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And, sir, since you have taken the solemn declaration today to

23     tell the truth, does that mean that your statement is truthful in nature?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Then, Your Honours we would ask for the 1D01642 to

Page 33334

 1     be marked for identification pending resolution of the transcript.

 2     Pardon me, of the translation.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D942, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

 6             Mr. Weber, anticipating that we finally will resolve the matter,

 7     are there any objections against admission if everything has been sorted

 8     out.

 9             MR. WEBER:  You're correct, Your Honour, no, there wouldn't be

10     with that redaction.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  We also have a reduced number of associated exhibits

14     that we would tender at this time.  The number is 14.  I would at this

15     time bring to everyone's attention that three of the documents that we

16     are not tendering have already been introduced into evidence but under

17     different 65 ter numbers.  It was a identical document that had two

18     different numbers, so the document that is identified as 1D03000 in the

19     statement is already in evidence -- oh.  Is already in evidence as

20     P05173.  And the document identified in the statement as 1D03014 is

21     already in evidence as P01977.  And the document referred to in the

22     statement that we identified as 65 ter number 19198 is already in

23     evidence as P02006.

24             At this point I don't know if you want me to read the 65 ter

25     numbers of the documents that remain or if you want to do that by written

Page 33335

 1     means after the examination.  I can do either.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would be best that Mr. Registrar prepares

 3     a list of the remaining and perhaps already provisionally assigns numbers

 4     to it.  But, Mr. Weber, you're on your feet.

 5             MR. WEBER:  It's my understanding that the rest of the associated

 6     exhibits are being tendered.  We have no objection with that so I just

 7     want to put that on the record.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  There's one more, I think.  Also, there is one that

 9     is identified as 65 ter number 08977 which received a number P00780 and

10     was marked not admitted.  And I believe that's the one that counsel and I

11     talked about before the witness started and we would tender it at this

12     time since now two witnesses have talked about that document.  It was

13     previously marked not admitted as P00780.

14             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.  It's an associated exhibit now to

15     two different statements of witnesses in this case.  Simply the Chamber

16     is going to need the document to understand what the separate witnesses

17     are saying about the material.  It should not be admitted.

18             MR. IVETIC:  You're recorded as saying, "not be admitted."

19             MR. WEBER:  It should be -- we would like.  Thank you,

20     Mr. Ivetic.  And that is our correct position.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And you tender it now --

22             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as well, and it already been assigned that

24     number.

25             We are talking about 65 ter 08977 which was -- had already P780.

Page 33336

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And now since both parties are seeking admission of

 3     that ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, apart from what further remains,

 6     65 ter 08977 is now admitted under the same P number, that is P780.

 7             All the rest, numbers will be reserved.  We'll receive a list

 8     from Mr. Registrar and we'll then decide on admission.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours I would like to read the

11     witness summary for the public.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

13             MR. IVETIC:  The witness, Dragisa Masal, is a retired

14     lieutenant-general of the VRS.  He joined the VRS after its formation and

15     served as a colonel until the end of 1995.  In the VRS, he hold the posts

16     of artillery regiment commander, commander of the Visegrad Tactical

17     Group, and chief of artillery at the Main Staff.  After the war, he was

18     sector chief in the newly formed VRS General Staff.

19             He served as commander of the Visegrad Tactical Group from

20     February 1993 to 20 August 1994.  When demilitarization of the areas of

21     Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde was announced, the VRS took the same

22     seriously.  The weapons of the Zepa Brigade were to be collected and

23     placed in storage of UNPROFOR and a double-key system:  One key with

24     UNPROFOR and one key with the VRS.  This never happened.  The commission

25     for Gorazde never went there and the procedure was not implemented.

Page 33337

 1             In Srebrenica, the reports from the superior command were that

 2     the demilitarization was not fully implemented as only defective and

 3     hunting weapons were surrendered.

 4             The VRS adhered to cease-fire agreements tied to the

 5     establishment of safe areas, despite provocations from the ABiH.  The

 6     witness says that UNPROFOR did not show any intention of carrying out the

 7     task concerning the conduct of demilitarization.

 8             The Visegrad Tactical Group did not cause problems for the

 9     passage of convoys to Gorazde or Zepa.  The witness recalls abuses of

10     these convoys to smuggle excess fuel, telephones, rifle clips, and film

11     in the stated cargo.

12             The witness recalled four villages between Rogatica and Visegrad

13     that had Muslim inhabitants and that were unarmed and stayed and received

14     humanitarian aid from the civilian authorities of the Republika Srpska.

15     When unknown individuals engaged in occasional provocations of these

16     villages, the civilian authorities and frequent interventions of the

17     1st Rogatica Brigade commander contributed to giving full protection to

18     this Muslim population.

19             In August 1994, the witness was transferred to the Main Staff as

20     chief of artillery.  Because the staffing levels at the Main Staff were

21     so low, he had to do other duties in addition to his own duties as chief

22     of artillery.

23             The witness retired in 1998.

24             And that ends the public summary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 33338

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I see we're over the time.  Did we start at 11.00?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are certainly at a time for a break.

 3             Would you have any further questions for the witness?  Because

 4     you spent far more than your usual 30 minutes to introduce the evidence

 5     of this witness.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  In light of all the corrections I asked for the time

 7     to be increased to an hour when I sent the information report a few days

 8     ago so I will be within that one-hour time estimate, I believe.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps, needless to say, if there is a

10     translation issue, you should just provide a new translation rather than

11     to go with the witness about what is wrong in the English version, but

12     where the B/C/S/ version is okay.  I mean, that's not something that you

13     have to go through the witness with.  So in that respect, you may not

14     have used your time in the most efficient way, but let's not focus too

15     much on that.  We'll ask Mr. Registrar how much time have you used until

16     now and you will have up to one hour.

17             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We take a

18     break first.  You may follow the usher.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And to give you some guidance, Mr. Ivetic, you have

21     used 43 minutes until now, so you have 17 minutes left.

22             We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 33339

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think I'm reading the transcript now.

 3     I see that my math is usually better.  I think I said 17 minutes left,

 4     because 43 plus 17, in my view, is still 60.  Just that you do not expect

 5     to have ten minutes more than I think you're entitled to at this moment.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   General, I do have some questions for you.  As you've heard, our

10     time is tight so I ask that you try to keep your answers as brief as

11     necessary.

12             If we could turn to page 3 in the English and Serbian of your

13     statement and look at paragraph number 5, you talk about a commission set

14     up for Gorazde that never went there.  What is the bases of your

15     knowledge that the commission of Gorazde never even went there?

16        A.   Yes, that's for sure.  Because Lieutenant-Colonel

17     Luka Dragicevic, my deputy, was a member of that commission.

18        Q.   Okay.  If we can turn to page 5 in both versions of your

19     statement and look at paragraph number 11, could you tell us, sir, what

20     caused the damage to the power grid that's described in paragraph 11?

21        A.   May I just say that in Visegrad during the war or, rather, before

22     the war, a hydroelectric power plant had been built and it operated at a

23     lesser capacity at first but most of the time at full capacity.  And it

24     provided electricity to the region of Sarajevo and partly the broader

25     area of Tuzla and further on, all of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  During war

Page 33340

 1     operations, the primary grid for the transmission of electric power was

 2     seriously damaged, especially transmission lines from Visegrad to

 3     Sarajevo, in that area, and towards Tuzla via Zepa, Zvornik, towards

 4     Tuzla.

 5        Q.   Were any efforts undertaken to repair the power grid; and, if so,

 6     by whom?

 7        A.   Experts from the Visegrad hydroelectric power plant and from

 8     Elektroprenos in Pale and all the other electricity companies in the area

 9     worked on repairing the damage.  In that situation, only some of the

10     damage could have been redressed.  As for a full repair of the grid, that

11     could not have been carried out until the end of the war.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, your previous question was not

13     answered.  The question:  What caused the damage.

14             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it was Your Honours, where it says --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And three Judges agree it was not.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  He said only that it was damaged during the war.

17             MR. IVETIC:  During war operations.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  During is a time.  And it doesn't say by whom.  It

21     doesn't say exactly by what, but we got a long explanation as what the

22     damage was, something you had not asked.

23             Please keep -- if you're limiting your time, keep tight control

24     over the witness.

25             Please proceed.

Page 33341

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   General, do you address the question of how the power grid was

 3     damaged, by what was it damaged?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask one question, don't ask two, please.  By who

 5     or by whom.  He has explained how.  Your question was by whom.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  No, it wasn't, Your Honour.  I never asked whom I

 7     asked how or what caused the damage.  Not by whom.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I take you to what you said.

 9             Line 19, page 50:  "Okay if we can turn to page 5 in both

10     versions of your statement and look at paragraph 11 could you tell us,

11     sir, what caused ..."

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, and that's exactly what I just

13     asked and that Your Honours are objecting to.  I don't understand Your

14     Honour's objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You phrased it differently, and I understand now

16     that you intended to ask the same question.  Let it be put to the witness

17     again.

18             What caused the damage to the power grid?  Could you please

19     answer that question in one or two lines.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that -- that high voltage

21     transmission lines from the hydroelectric power plant from Visegrad

22     leading to Sarajevo were damaged through the activity of sabotage groups

23     that were infiltrated from the area of Gorazde.  Two metal pillars were

24     completely destroyed.  The lines going to Tuzla were destroyed somewhere

25     in the area of Zepa or damaged, and it could not be repaired until the

Page 33342

 1     end of the war.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again you go beyond the question by

 3     describing what was destroyed.  You told us that it was through the

 4     activity of sabotage groups that infiltrated from the area of Gorazde.

 5     Could you tell us to what -- what sabotage groups of what army or what

 6     armed forces.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  These were groups of the

 8     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Gorazde.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   If we can now turn to page 5 in the Serbian, page 6 in the

13     English, and focus on paragraph 13 of your statement.

14             Sir, you detail here an incident on the Kopito pass on the road

15     from Visegrad to Rogatica.  How frequent were such attacks by the

16     sabotage and terrorist groups from Srebrenica and Zepa.

17        A.   The activity of the sabotage/terrorist groups were very frequent

18     along this road.  Let me be more specific.  Every seven or ten days,

19     there were certain incidents.  There would be ambushes or anti-personnel

20     or antitank explosives were planted along the road.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now paragraph 15 which is to be found between pages 7 and

22     8 in the English and pages 6 and 7 in the Serbian.  Here you talk about

23     occasional provocations by unidentified individuals against the Muslim

24     population that stayed in these four Muslim villages.

25             Can you tell us precisely what actions were undertaken by the VRS

Page 33343

 1     to respond to these provocations and offer protection to these villages

 2     as you have referenced in this paragraph.

 3        A.   Since the civilian population of Muslim ethnicity complained, the

 4     command of the Rogatica Brigade intervened by way of a written document

 5     with the civilian organs of authority in Rogatica so that the civilian

 6     police would reinforce security in those four villages to reinforce

 7     patrols and constant security for the villages so that such things would

 8     not happen.

 9        Q.   Okay.  If we can now turn to page 11 in the English, page 9 in

10     the Serbian and focus on paragraph 22 of the same.

11             MR. IVETIC:  While we wait for that to come up, Your Honours, I'm

12     intending to now use 1D5374 with the witness in court.  This is a

13     document that was not on our original list, nor is it on our 65 ter list

14     that we submitted and filed.  This was a document that the witness

15     brought to our attention that we believe helps further explain the parts

16     of this paragraph.  So we'd ask leave first to add this to our 65 ter

17     list before I use it with the witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  It's our understanding that this is the document

20     referred to in the proofing note and we have no objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   I'd like to look at the last paragraph of paragraph 22 when you

24     talk of an incident when UNPROFOR representatives refused to allow

25     inspection of their vehicle.

Page 33344

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And, in relation to the same, I would call up 1D5374

 2     in e-court.

 3        Q.   So the document is dated 9th of May, 1994.  Can you tell us what

 4     incident is being reported in this report from the command of the

 5     1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade Rogatica?

 6        A.   This has to do with a regular check, stopping an UNPROFOR convoy

 7     that was moving from Sarajevo towards Gorazde.  That is in accordance

 8     with regular procedure and instructions.  On that day specifically, they

 9     refused the envisaged check of the convoy.  The consequence of their

10     refusal to have the convoy inspected was the fact that it was kept for

11     three days at the check-point in Rogatica which caused nervousness on

12     both sides.  I was personally sent by General Tolimir to the scene and I

13     was convinced that it was necessary to keep the convoy there because the

14     commander of the convoy did not allow the envisaged inspection.  When the

15     other side intervened as well, that is to say the UNPROFOR command, then

16     the inspection was carried out and it was concluded that the convoy did

17     not match the list that had been provided, not in terms of the number of

18     people there or in terms of the technical equipment that was there.  The

19     specific document refers to all the things that were found there.

20             Just one more sentence.  The behaviour of individuals from the

21     escort of the convoy was highly improper.  There were even threats of

22     using fire-arms.

23        Q.   And in relation to the -- if we can go back to your statement at

24     paragraph number 22 of the same, which is on page 11 in English, page 9

25     in Serbian, in relation to the events that are described in that

Page 33345

 1     paragraph, what role does this document that we've -- that you've just

 2     described have?

 3        A.   This report was sent through regular channels, every time an

 4     UNPROFOR or UNHCR convoy passed through.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And if we could turn to the next page in the English.

 6             In the last half of paragraph 22, you say:  "I have to link this

 7     incident with an incident which took place only a day later."

 8             Now looking at the Serbian you first start talking about an

 9     incident on the 8th of May 1994 in relation to the incident that took

10     place a day later, where telephone, rifle clips and colour film were

11     found in the cargo, how does that activity relate to the document that

12     we've just looked at 1D5347?

13        A.   This document served to inform the superior command as to what

14     was found on the UNPROFOR convoy en route to Gorazde.  Every unit that

15     controlled such convoys had instructions telling them what could be

16     controlled and how to inspect combat means and how to inspect transport

17     means.  How to state the findings and who to send a report about that.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we'd tender document 1D5347 at this

19     time.

20             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Will be Exhibit D957, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   I would now next like to turn to page 13 in the English, page 11

Page 33346

 1     in the Serbian of your statement, and I'd like to look at paragraph 25

 2     with you.

 3             Here, you talk of reports sent from subordinates being doctored

 4     before sending to the commander.  Could you explain what you mean here.

 5        A.   Let me put it this way.  Those reports sent by subordinated

 6     commands were rather superficial, and I'm talking about both regular and

 7     interim reports.  The idea was to show that some activities were carried

 8     out, although they hadn't been.  That's why doctored reports were sent.

 9     Higher-ranking commands were always in a position to assess when a report

10     presented a real situation in an area of responsibility or when it was

11     just a matter of formality or even doctored, as we said.

12        Q.   And while you were at the Main Staff, what was the response at

13     the Main Staff in the event of discovering such reports were inaccurate?

14        A.   The initial reaction happened in the operative centre.  That's

15     where all the reports were collected and merged.  Based on the

16     information and relying on experience with regard to the combat of all

17     subordinated units, one could know what was really happening and what was

18     just a fabrication.  The seconds method was the immediate presence of

19     certain organs of the Main Staff in the subordinated commands and units

20     when major operations were ongoing.  The commander of the Main Staff, or

21     his deputy in his absence, would react and would disallow such things.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I would have expected you to announce

23     your last question when you went over the 17 minutes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If do you so, then I don't have to do it.

Page 33347

 1             Yes, please proceed, and wind up in the next one or two minutes.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3        Q.   Now, in paragraph 26, you talk of staffing being low when you

 4     went to the Main Staff.  Could you give us some details, for instance,

 5     within your department how many officers there were besides you and what

 6     the -- what was foreseen for that position as per formation?

 7        A.   The position of the command of the Main Staff was that the

 8     command positions, i.e., the battalion, division, regiment, and brigade

 9     commanders, as well as corps commanders have to be hired, whereas in

10     other commands there should be a minimum number of staff.  For example,

11     in my department, in addition to myself there were two other officers and

12     one non-commissioned officer.  All that time while I discharged my duties

13     in the Main Staff, I was basically on my own, and that's how things were

14     in other branches and services.

15        Q.   If can I ask you to clarify.  You're recorded in the transcript

16     as saying:  "For example, in my department, in addition to myself, there

17     were two other officers and one non-commissioned officer."

18             Is that accurate, or, if not, could you please correct what you

19     said in relation to the same?

20        A.   No.  In my department, in addition to myself, there should have

21     been two more officers and a non-commissioned officer.

22             However, all the time, there was just me.

23        Q.   General, I thank you for answering my questions.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 33348

 1             If Mr. Weber is ready to cross-examine the witness.

 2             Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.  You find

 3     Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, General Masal.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   Today I'm going to start by briefly discussing your positions

 8     during the war.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 01084 for

10     the witness.

11        Q.   Coming up before you will be a 31 January 1993 VRS Main Staff

12     order from General Mladic.

13             According to this order, you were appointed as the commander of

14     Tactical Group Visegrad.  It then goes on to indicate that up to this

15     point you were on duty in the IBK.  This is correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   In 1992, you participated in Operation Corridor as a member of

18     the Eastern Bosnia Corps; right?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   You were an artillery commander in the areas of Bijeljina and

21     Brcko during these operations; right?

22        A.   Correction.  The -- peacetime command or barracks were in

23     Bijeljina.  The unit, however, was in engaged or, rather, deployed in the

24     Brcko, Majevica and Posavina sectors.

25        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, sir.  In February 1993, you

Page 33349

 1     replaced Vinko Pandurevic as the tactical group commander.  He was your

 2     predecessor.

 3        A.   I did not replace anybody.  When I joined, the command did not

 4     even exist.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   Before that, Vinko Pandurevic was reassigned to Zvornik.  But

 7     that was before I arrived.

 8        Q.   Directing your attention to the second individual in this order,

 9     we see that the person mentioned is Colonel Svetozar Parezanin, he was

10     appointed your deputy commander and Chief of Staff of the tactical group;

11     right.

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Colonel Luka Dragicevic replaced Colonel Parezanin in

14     August 1993.

15        A.   Let me just add to that, that Colonel Parezanin was appointed.

16     He was 20 days late to report to duty at the command of the tactical

17     group because he had been deployed in Herzegovina.  He did report,

18     however, and he remained in that position as the Chief of Staff for a

19     very short period of time, hardly a month.  Therefore, before

20     Luka Dragicevic became the Chief of Staff in August 1993, I didn't have a

21     deputy.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask for one clarification.

23             Witness, you were asked -- I would -- I have to ask Mr. Weber.

24     In your question, line 8 on page 60, Svetozar Parezanin was appointed

25     your department commander or deputy commander.

Page 33350

 1             MR. WEBER:  I believe I said deputy commander.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   In August of 1994, that's when you were promoted to the position

 5     of assistant commander for artillery in the VRS Main Staff, based on your

 6     performance of the commander of TG Visegrad; right?

 7        A.   Correction.  I was not the assistant commander for artillery.  My

 8     establishment position was chief of artillery at the Main Staff.  The

 9     commander of the Main Staff was not my immediate superior.  My immediate

10     superior was the deputy chief of General Staff.  I apologise.  The chief

11     commander of the Main Staff.

12        Q.   Okay.  One, you were promoted to that position based on your

13     performance as commander of Tactical Group Visegrad?

14        A.   No.  I was promoted in view of my specialty.  I'm an artillery

15     officer.  That is my specialty.

16        Q.   And just so we have a clear record, who was your immediate

17     superior in the Main Staff?  If you could just give us the name.

18        A.   General Manojlo Milovanovic.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1084 into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7224, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7224 is admitted.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, I now just focus a little bit on the composition of

25     Tactical Group Visegrad.

Page 33351

 1             Is it correct that there were five brigades subordinated to you

 2     as the commander of TG Visegrad:  The 1st through the 5th Podrinje

 3     Brigades?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were five brigades, but can you just rephrase your

 5     question, put it again?  Did you say 1 through 5 Podrinje Brigades?

 6        Q.   Let's go one by one.  And, sir, please focus on my questions.

 7             The 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was based in Rogatica;

 8     right?

 9             Sir, I see you're nodding your head?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   In 1993, the commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade was Rajko

12     Kusic; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You were Kusic's immediate superior between 1993 and 1994; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was based in Visegrad;

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Up until August of 1993, Luka Dragicevic was the commander of the

20     2nd Podrinje Brigade?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   The 2nd Podrinje Brigade was also commonly known as the Visegrad

23     Brigade; correct?

24        A.   Yes, just like the 1st Rogatica Brigade.

25        Q.   The 3rd Podrinje Brigade was based in Cajnice?

Page 33352

 1        A.   Cajnice, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you for the help.  That's where it was located?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   The 4th Podrinje Brigade was located in Rudo?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And, lastly, the 5th Podrinje Brigade was located in the area of

 7     Gorazde?

 8        A.   It was located in Gorazde but Gorazde was in the hands of the

 9     enemy.  Its temporary headquarters was in Visegrad.  Still, it was known

10     as the Gorazde Brigade and it was, indeed, the Gorazde brigade.

11        Q.   That's understood, sir.  The zones of responsibility for these

12     brigades corresponded to the municipal borders where they were located;

13     correct?  Sir, you're nodding your head.

14        A.   That's correct, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, sometimes the translation has not yet

16     finished when you already address the witness, where he may be nodding

17     just that he understands the question or is listening to the question.

18             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement, toward the end of the

20     paragraph, you state:  "We did not create any problems concerning the

21     passage of humanitarian organisations' convoys either in the area of

22     Gorazde or in the area of Zepa."

23             General Masal, my question is:  This is not an accurate statement

24     to your entire time as commander of TG Visegrad; correct?

25        A.   I stand by my statement.  Since I know that my commands, i.e.,

Page 33353

 1     commissions, that inspected convoys were subordinated to me, they

 2     reported to me, and they did their job with full responsibility and they,

 3     indeed, did not create any unnecessary problems.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's talk about that further.  In paragraph 18 of your

 5     statement, you state:  "Convoys travelling to Zepa and Gorazde went

 6     through my zone of responsibility.  My superior command, the DK, issued

 7     orders based on the orders of the GS, and I often received them

 8     directly."

 9             You followed these orders; correct?

10        A.   Fully.

11        Q.   There were orders, in fact, that banned convoys from entering the

12     eastern enclaves; right?

13        A.   There were no orders to prevent them from entering.  There were

14     orders for them to be kept for as long as needed, i.e., they needed to be

15     controlled and inspected pursuant to the signed agreement of the.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6961 for

17     the witness.

18        Q.   This is a document from the security and intelligence department

19     of the Drina Corps in May 1993.  We see that it was sent to all

20     Drina Corps units with the instruction to inform commanders -- or all

21     brigades.

22             You were subordinate to the Drina Corps Command at this time;

23     correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   The document very clearly states:  "Pursuant to the oral order of

Page 33354

 1     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic, commander of the VRS Main Staff, all

 2     convoys of UNPROFOR, the ICRC and other international organisations are

 3     hereby banned from entering or leaving the territory of Srebrenica and

 4     Zepa."

 5             So, sir, I put it to you what you just told us is not true.

 6     That, in fact, General Mladic issued orders to deny the passage of

 7     convoys during your time as commander of Tactical Group Visegrad; right?

 8        A.   This is not about any one specific convoy.  It was not that a

 9     convoy was there at the check-point and then an order was issued to

10     prevent it from entering Zepa or Gorazde.  This was a general, an

11     umbrella, an order probably based on the oral order of the commander of

12     the Main Staff.  I assume that it applied to a certain time-period when

13     the relation ship between UNPROFOR and VRS were tense.  This kind of

14     order --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sorry to cut you off but

16     you're providing an explanation.  What I'm simply asking is what you said

17     to us about there not being orders to ban convoys, that's not true.  We

18     see in this order that it says, "All convoys of UNPROFOR, the ICRC, and

19     other international organisations are hereby banned."

20             So what you said is not accurate.  That's the case.

21        A.   The order was received, but I reassert that, at that moment,

22     there was no specific convoy at the check-point.  No single convoy was

23     ever returned from the check-point.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question that was put to you was not

25     whether any concrete convoy was banned when appearing at a check-point.

Page 33355

 1     The question was whether orders were given to ban convoys from entering

 2     and leaving.

 3             Mr. Weber now puts to you a document which literally says that.

 4     Do you accept that your previous answer was then apparently an answer to

 5     a different question, not to the question of Mr. Weber; and that this

 6     order states that convoys were banned from entering or leaving Srebrenica

 7     and Zepa?

 8             Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud.  And this is the last warning.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any problem with the audio for

11     Mr. Mladic, he can convey that to you, Mr. Stojanovic, at an inaudible

12     volume, and nothing else.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the case.  But I

14     believe that it has been resolved now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, do you agree that your previous

16     answer that there were no orders to ban convoys from entering and leaving

17     was inaccurate?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that generally this order

19     does exist or, rather, information from the intelligence organs.  But I

20     stand by the following.  That my answer was negative in relation to the

21     concrete convoy.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that was not the question.  So would you

23     please, next time, focus on what is asked and not reformulate the

24     question for yourself and then answer the question you had on your mind.

25             Carefully listen to what Mr. Weber asks you.

Page 33356

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   What's referred to in this order is not an isolated incident, and

 4     your units continually denied the passage of humanitarian convoys to the

 5     eastern enclaves.  That's what happened.

 6        A.   I disagree that they continually denied the passage.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, in February 1993, no convoy had been allowed to

 8     deliver aid to the town of Gorazde for more than three weeks; right?

 9        A.   The convoys that passed through my zone -- well, the one that was

10     kept the longest was this one, the UNPROFOR convoy in Rogatica.

11             As for others, I cannot confirm now whether they were prevented

12     from entering at that point in time.  I cannot confirm anything like that

13     for you now.

14        Q.   Sir, you haven't --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Part of the witness's answer has not been

16     translated.  He mentioned a length of time for the UNPROFOR convoy in

17     Rogatica.

18             I would ask that he be asked to repeat that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer in respect of

20     the time involved for the UNPROFOR convoy in Rogatica?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the longest time that a

22     convoy was kept for at a check-point.

23             As for this, three weeks in February 1993, not a single convoy

24     from the eastern enclave passed through my zone.  I cannot confirm or

25     deny that because I don't know about it.

Page 33357

 1             MR. WEBER:  Let's look at document.  Could the Prosecution please

 2     have 65 ter 9684 for the witness.

 3        Q.   Sir, before you is a UNHCR update dated 12 February 1993.  The

 4     first paragraph indicates the UN High Commissioner for Refugees condemned

 5     the Bosnian Serb policy of denying humanitarian convoys to Eastern Bosnia

 6     in order to starve people out of their homes.

 7             Continuing on, the second paragraph refers to a letter to

 8     Radovan Karadzic that said UNHCR had been present -- had present

 9     clearance to deliver aid to the enclaves where more than 100.000 people

10     are suffering hardship due to the military blockade.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

12     for the witness.

13        Q.   In the first full paragraph on the page before you - this is the

14     third paragraph from the bottom in the English - the update states:

15     "Despite daily attempts by UNHCR to reach the eastern enclaves, no convoy

16     has been allowed to deliver aid to the town of Gorazde since 19 January,

17     no food has reached Zepa since 17 January and all convoys into Srebrenica

18     have been banned since 10 December 1992."

19             General, the actual situation was that there was a Bosnian Serb

20     policy that was enforced by your units of in the area of Gorazde which

21     prevented the delivery of humanitarian convoys.  That was what was going

22     on.

23        A.   My units did not pursue a policy of preventing the supply of

24     humanitarian aid.  Specifically, the movement of all convoys of

25     international organisation, military and humanitarian, was approved at

Page 33358

 1     the level of the republic.  Down the chain of command, we received orders

 2     or, rather, information as to when, at what time, along which axis

 3     certain convoys were supposed to pass.  So I completely rule that out,

 4     that my units pursued a policy of preventing the delivery of humanitarian

 5     aid to the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.

 6        Q.   I'm not going to debate with you.  We see what the information is

 7     and we've also seen that your superior commands denied the convoys.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 09684 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7225.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P7225 is admitted.

12             Mr. Weber, I think we are close to the time for a break, and if

13     we wait any longer then hardly anything will remain after that break.

14             MR. WEBER:  I'm going stay on the same subject but this is a fine

15     time to break.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I thought for a second that you would say it

17     was a perfect time for a break.  But ...

18             MR. WEBER:  I amended it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You amended it.

20             Witness, we will take a break.  We'd like to see you back after

21     20 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Registrar has directed to me an

24     error when I spoke as to the document that was introduced into evidence.

25     I said at page 56 of the transcript line 14, I said 1D5347.  I meant to

Page 33359

 1     say 1D5374 which, indeed, was the document that we had viewed on the

 2     screen at the time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think both were used but ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll ask Mr. Registrar to clearly tell us what was

 6     admitted, irrespective of how it was introduced because I remember that

 7     various numbers were mentioned and appear on the transcript.

 8             Mr. Registrar, the number and the ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 1D5347 was the

10     document that was used by Mr. Ivetic and that will be assigned

11     Exhibit D954.

12             I had assigned it Exhibit D957 but that should now be vacated

13     because that's the wrong number.  It should be Exhibit D954 assigned to

14     exhibit 65 ter number 1D5347.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's now --

16             MR. IVETIC:  If I can ask Mr. Registrar to check the number again

17     that is being introduced because that's a different document.  1D5347 is

18     a different document in e-court.  According to me -- hang on a second.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you should clarify this together during the

20     break --

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  He's right now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  He's right now.

23             Therefore, we'll take that break and we'll resume at a quarter to

24     2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

Page 33360

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar confirmed to me during the break that

 4     everything he said and which is now on the record in relation to the

 5     numbers, et cetera, is accurate and correct.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   The restriction of food and humanitarian aid to Muslim towns in

11     your area of responsibility continued through May 1993; correct?

12        A.   I have to repeat once again.  Not a single restriction existed in

13     the zone unless an order had been received not to allow passage.  Such

14     orders would arrive from superior commands in the period when the

15     relations between the UNHCR or, rather, UNPROFOR, and the

16     Army of Republika Srpska were impaired.  So, in my zone -- well, it

17     wasn't our will to prevent passage.  For each and every passage, we would

18     receive notification and an order to allow convoys to pass once they had

19     been inspected.

20        Q.   You're giving an explanation again.  Are you saying this

21     continued to happen through May 1993?  That's what you're saying; right?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you clarify what this --

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   The restriction of humanitarian aid and food continued throughout

25     May 1993; right?

Page 33361

 1        A.   Humanitarian convoys moving through the zone of my command were

 2     announced by my command.  For each and every convoy, I would receive an

 3     order stating the composition of the command, the time when the convoy

 4     would pass, that it should be inspected and let go.  I didn't do anything

 5     on my own.  Apart from that, and no one could have done anything on their

 6     own just like that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, why are you insisting on answering

 8     questions that are not put to you.  No one asked you whether you or on

 9     your own decided to restrict humanitarian convoys.

10             The question was simply whether the restrictions in the

11     humanitarian aid and food continued throughout May 1993.  That's the

12     question.  Not whether you're responsible for it, not on whose orders it

13     happened.  Just whether it did happen.  That's the question.

14             Could you please answer that question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From time to time, there were

16     problems regarding the passage of convoys.  It wasn't by way of

17     continuity.  But from time to time, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Took us a while to get an answer but we have it now.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do, could we please have a look at

21     P6961 again.

22             Okay.  Okay.  Thank you so much.  No, that's fine.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31196 for

25     the witness.  Page 1 of the English original and page 2 of the B/C/S

Page 33362

 1     translation.

 2        Q.   This is a 13 May 1993 letter from UNHCR to General Mladic and

 3     Radovan Karadzic.  I'd like to focus on some information in this letter

 4     which begins in the middle of the page before you.  The letter states:

 5     "During the period from July 1992 through 10 May 1993, UNHCR Belgrade

 6     delivered 12.759 metric tonnes of aid to Bosnian Serb communities in the

 7     eastern region.  During the same period, we were able to deliver only

 8     6.325 metric tonnes to the towns of Gorazde, Srebrenica, Tuzla and Zepa.

 9     The figures speak for themselves.  During the month of April, taken as an

10     example, UNHCR trucks delivered aid directly to 17 different Bosnian Serb

11     towns ..."

12             The towns are then listed, and among them are Rogatica and

13     Visegrad.  The letter then also lists three communities who picked up aid

14     in Belgrade.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page of

16     the English original.

17        Q.   One of these communities was Cajnice.  The fact is the movement

18     of humanitarian aid to Bosnian Serb towns and communities in your zone of

19     responsibility was permitted; right?

20        A.   Obviously on the basis of this document, yes.  Right now, I

21     cannot say anything to the contrary because I see this on the basis of

22     this document.

23        Q.   The last sentence of the paragraph states:  "During the same

24     period, we made trips to only three Muslim areas in the east, Tuzla,

25     Srebrenica and Gorazde, the last only once."

Page 33363

 1             At the same time that you were allowing aid to Serb-populated

 2     areas, the fact is you were also restricting aid to the Muslim-populated

 3     areas in your zone of responsibility, such as Gorazde.  That's what

 4     happened; right?

 5        A.   I still cannot accept your assertion.  You are addressing me,

 6     saying that I had forbidden that.  I can agree, though, and I've already

 7     said that there were problems and that were there orders that certain

 8     convoys be stopped and kept there for a certain period of time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Weber, if you clearly explain what you

10     mean when you're saying "you."  Is that this witness or is that the

11     Bosnian Serb authorities, or ...

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   The Bosnian Serb authorities, specifically, the VRS were

14     restricting -- the military forces were restricting the delivery of aid

15     to areas like Gorazde; right?  And, sir, just so you're clear I'm

16     referring to you because you were the commander of the units in this zone

17     of responsibility.

18        A.   Yet again, I'm saying each and every order to allow a convoy to

19     pass started from the leadership --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you immediately.  The question is not who

21     decided but whether this happened, whether convoys were stopped by you,

22     that is, your unit.  Perhaps for good reasons, perhaps on orders, perhaps

23     on whatever, but we just first want to establish what factually happened.

24             So could you please, in this understanding of the question,

25     answer that question.

Page 33364

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did give an answer

 2     to you in the affirmative.  Yes, it happened at certain points in time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  65 ter 31196, the Prosecution tenders that document

 5     into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7226, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P7226 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Contrary to your statement, there were problems created by severe

11     food shortages in places like Gorazde as a result of the VRS denial of

12     convoys; right?

13        A.   Probably there were problems in Gorazde.  I cannot say with

14     certainty, but I believe that there were problems with food shortages.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32234 for

16     the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could you please have a look at page 74,

18     line 24.  The question, whether that reflects exactly what you said.  The

19     first three, four words.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are the line references in LiveNote.

21             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  "Contrary to your statement", is that what you said?

23     Yes, there is an always a bit of difference between the lines.  The last

24     question you put to the witness.

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes, that I believe was my -- what I said.  Based on

Page 33365

 1     my recollection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Before you is a 4 May 1993 article from Agence France Presse,

 5     entitled "Gorazde suffering acute food shortages suicides on the rise,

 6     UN"?

 7             The article contains information from a representative of UNHCR

 8     who said that people in Gorazde were suffering from severe food shortages

 9     and many of the town's inhabitants had lost up to 30 kilograms in weight.

10     She added that an increasing number of elderly were committing suicide

11     there and that Western aid was being air-dropped over Gorazde daily,

12     characterising it as significant but it could not meet the needs of its

13     70.000 inhabitants, about 20.000 of whom were children.

14             This was the situation, these were the food shortages that were

15     facing the people of Gorazde because of the denial of convoys.  That's

16     the truth; right?

17        A.   I'm sure there were problems.  However, I have to tell you that

18     Gorazde never had 170.000 inhabitants.  It is a town with 30.000

19     inhabitants.  But this is neither here nor there.  I believe that there

20     were problems as a result of shortages of food in Gorazde and elsewhere,

21     including the territory under the control of my own forces, in Serbian

22     settlements, I believe that there were problems in Gorazde.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence,

24     it is 65 ter 32234.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

Page 33366

 1             MR. IVETIC:  There is an error in translation which the witness

 2     has just brought to my attention.  The figures between the B/C/S and the

 3     English do not correlate.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I do see that also.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  We are happy to MFI --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the original?

 8             MR. WEBER:  It's 70.000 inhabitants.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  70.000 is the original.  Well, the witness expressed

10     himself clearly on what he expected to be the number of the population.

11             Witness, in one of the previous questions, apparently you have

12     read it from the screen, the 170.000 is an incorrect translation.  It is

13     in the original English version, it says 70.000.

14             Would you still have the same comment or would you accept 70.000

15     inhabitants for Gorazde?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we take into account the entire

17     region of Gorazde and all the settlements in the direction of Sarajevo,

18     it would be between 50 and 70.000.  I'm not sure.  But I know that the

19     town itself cannot hold more than 30.000 people.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Registrar, this document should be

21     MFI'd until we have a correction translation.

22             MR. WEBER:  We can do that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I would like to assign -- have a number

24     assigned to it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P7227, Your Honours.

Page 33367

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P7227 is marked for identification pending the

 2     upload of an accurate translation.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   I'd like to change topics now.  As the tactical group commander

 6     of TG Visegrad, you ordered the shelling of the market-place in Gorazde;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   I don't remember that I ever ordered the shelling of the

 9     market-place.

10        Q.   In fact, you ordered the shelling of the market-place on a

11     Saturday, the main market day.

12        A.   I cannot remember that, and this is all I can be certain about.

13        Q.   Okay.  Just one more question before we go to a document.

14             You ordered the shelling because this was when the greatest

15     number of people would come to the market-place for food?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, for two questions and answers the

17     witness says he cannot remember then to again talk about something as a

18     definite and to ask for the reason for it, is misstating the evidence and

19     is confusing.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, in view of the type of questions that it is

21     permissible with two follow-up questions to seek the refreshment of the

22     memory of the witness, but we'll not continue with that forever,

23     Mr. Weber, so you have now -- we'd like to hear an answer to the

24     question.

25             Witness, does it ring a bell to you that you may have ordered the

Page 33368

 1     shelling because of the greatest number of people being on the

 2     market-place?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't exclude that possibility,

 4     but I don't see a reason why would I have done that.  During war time, no

 5     market-place in the war-struck area functioned properly.

 6             Secondly, nobody in my command could observe the area in order to

 7     detect or pin-point the area of the market so that it could be shelled.

 8             We did not have a reconnaissance capacities in order to pin-point

 9     the place where civilians gathered, and no market could have been a

10     gathering place for the population during the war, especially in view of

11     the fact that there were no goods to be traded and sold at such a place.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32180 for

13     the witness.

14        Q.   This is a 11 February 1993 TG Visegrad order on securing more

15     favourable tactical positions through active operations.  The order was

16     addressed to the 3rd Podrinje Brigade in Cajnice.  This order is from

17     you; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Directing your attention to item 3, you state:  "Immediately

20     commence artillery actions [sic] against the Gorazde area and at odd

21     hours, with 2 to 3 projectiles."

22             This type of timed firing would create a pattern where those

23     present in the target area would believe they were under an ongoing

24     attack; right?

25        A.   Since the order was issued just to that one brigade, it is

Page 33369

 1     obvious that that order is a request to the commander of that brigade,

 2     and I believe that it was about the concentration of certain forces or

 3     the grouping of BiH army which targeted the positions of the 3rd Brigade

 4     in Cajnice.

 5        Q.   Sir, you haven't answered my question at all.  I asked you the

 6     phrase where you say "immediately commence artillery action against

 7     Gorazde and at odd hours, with 2 to 3 projectiles," that type of timed

 8     firing would create a pattern where those present in the target area

 9     would believe they were under an ongoing attack; right?

10        A.   It may be understood in that way.  However, fire opened at

11     certain intervals, prevents concentration of enemy forces in an area.

12     There was some military targets in Gorazde as well, and it is obvious

13     that this was about the grouping of the enemy troops.

14        Q.   I just want to get through the language first.

15             The next part states:  "Cease action on Friday, 12 February, and

16     on Saturday, 13 February, achieve a strong concentration of fire

17     targeting the area of the market-place in Gorazde."

18             That's what you ordered.  You ordered the market-place to be

19     shelled; right?

20        A.   Yes, I ordered that.  In my order, I exclude the possibility to

21     open fire on civilians.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the cessation of firing the

23     day before was intended to make people think that the attack was over so

24     they would come to the market the following day.  That's why you ordered

25     the lull in the firing; right?

Page 33370

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   This artillery action was carried out; correct?

 3        A.   I did not get any feedback on that.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document.  And I see the

 5     time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7228, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P7228 is admitted into evidence.

 9             One last question before we adjourn, Witness.

10             Are you telling us that you ordered the shelling achieving a

11     strong concentration on -- of fire targeting the area of the market-place

12     in Gorazde without ever receiving feedback on whether it was done?

13             Is that your testimony?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did not receive a report on

15     whether that was carried out.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you whether you received a report.

17     Whether you received any feedback at all.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have two --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then if Judge Fluegge has [Overlapping

21     speakers] ...

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... one final question.

23             A minute ago you said:  "In my order, I exclude the possibility

24     to open fire on civilians."

25             Where in your order do you exclude the possibility to open fire

Page 33371

 1     on civilians?  Where can we find it in your order?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this order, you don't see that

 3     civilians should be targeted.  If fire is opened on the general sector of

 4     Gorazde, where there are also military targets, it is actually possible

 5     that a civilian would get hurt or harmed.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was -- on the market-place in Gorazde, was there

 7     a military target?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where the military troops

 9     were concentrated.  They gathered there every day, and from that sector

10     reinforcements were probably sent to the positions.  This is a rather

11     wide area where the units of the BiH army gathered and rallied.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But I take it that your previous answer was wrong

14     when you said, "In my order, I exclude the possibility to open fire on

15     civilians."

16             Nothing can you found in your order; correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not put it in my order

18     that care should be taken that civilians must not be harmed.  There's no

19     that exclusivity in my order.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Therefore, your previous answer was wrong.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day.  Mr. Masal, we'd like to see

23     you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  But before you

24     follow the usher, I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

25     in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is

Page 33372

 1     testimony you have given today, or whether that is testimony which is

 2     still to be given tomorrow.

 3             Is that clear to you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

 8     Thursday, the 19th of March, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 9     courtroom, I.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

12                           March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.