1 Wednesday, 18 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a
12 preliminary matter.
13 Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Morning -- good morning,
15 Your Honours.
16 May I just inform you, in accordance with the obligation I took
17 yesterday, we checked P7049 and we have no problem with that, that it be
18 admitted into evidence in that form.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. It's on the record. But the
20 number ...
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be P7049.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think it was in -- it was admitted already
23 but we have now a new format? I'm sorry.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thanks to my colleagues I'm on my feet again.
1 P7049 is admitted into evidence.
2 Then I would like to deal briefly with two matters, and when I
3 start with the second one, the witness can be escorted in the courtroom.
4 But the first one deals with the 92 ter motion for
5 Witness GRM081.
6 On the 12th of December of last year, the Defence filed a motion
7 to admit excerpts of Witness GRM081's prior testimony pursuant to
8 Rule 92 ter.
9 On the 29th of December, the Prosecution filed its response,
10 requesting the admission of the cross-examination from the same prior
11 testimony, along with two associated exhibits. The Prosecution had
12 earlier indicated that this could render the examination of the witness
13 in court unnecessary. However, the Defence has now scheduled its
14 examination-in-chief for two hours, and in all likelihood this may affect
15 the need for cross-examination by the Prosecution because, apparently,
16 other evidence will come in and the Chamber wonders whether, under these
17 circumstances, the Prosecution still wishes to not cross-examine the
18 witness but just tender the testimony given in cross-examination in the
19 previous case.
20 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours.
21 The Prosecution still does not know what the additional evidence
22 exactly would be that would be led in the additional two hours. We have
23 the -- we have the 65 ter summary and the tendered materials to go by.
24 So if there are material -- if there is information as led that is
25 additional that further details of that nature, it would affect the
1 probability of doing some additional cross-examination beyond the
2 tendered cross.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that you withdraw that request,
4 that --
5 MR. WEBER: Correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's hereby on the record.
7 Then the witness can be escorted in the courtroom while I'll deal
8 with another matter, which is about the Rule 92 ter motion for
9 Dragisa Masal.
10 The Chamber notes that on the 13th of November of last year, the
11 Defence filed a motion tendering 19 associated exhibits with witness
12 Dragisa Masal, and pursuant to the Chamber's guide-lines, the Chamber
13 hereby invites the Defence to consider reducing the number of associated
14 exhibits by, for example, tendering some of these documents with the
15 witness during examination-in-chief.
16 Then, since the witness is escorted in the courtroom, we leave it
17 for the time being.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- to that.
20 Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, with respect to the previous matter
22 raised by the Court, it occurs to me that although Mr. Weber correctly
23 and the court correctly characterised the likelihood of what would
24 happen, we still -- if we were to withdraw the request we eliminate,
25 really, the possibility of no cross-examination. By maintaining the
1 request, should the Court grant it as we would ask, we still keep alive
2 the possibility that the material covered during the two hours does not
3 give rise to further -- so I think in -- out of -- for efficiency reasons
4 we should maintain it and ask the Court to grant it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No one, of course, imposes any duty on the
6 Prosecution to cross-examine the witness. At the same time I think it
7 was all more or less aiming at more or less administratively deal with
8 the evidence of that witness which -- than may be different now.
9 MR. TIEGER: That's true. We now revert to a more customary
10 situation, I think.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear for everyone.
12 Good morning, Mr. Trisic. Apologies for not greeting you when
13 you entered the courtroom and continuing with other matters.
14 Mr. Trisic, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the
15 solemn declaration --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- you've given at the beginning of your testimony,
18 and the cross-examination will now be resumed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
22 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV TRISIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trisic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I'd just like to remind you of something that you said yesterday
3 with respect to -- or in the context of the discussions we were having
4 over the two documents I showed you which now have the numbers P7221 and
5 P7222. One was the Lazic document and one was the document you
6 recognised as having your signature on the bottom.
7 And talking about these two documents, you said at transcript
8 page 32286: "Our Bratunac Brigade did not need this ammunition.
9 30-millimetre, 100-millimetre bullets because we did not have these
10 artillery pieces."
11 So now that you've been reminded of that, I just want to have
12 another look at P7221, the Lazic document, and ask you a couple of
13 questions about what you did have.
14 MS. EDGERTON: If we could have P7221 on the screen again,
16 Q. So the very last -- the very last type of ammunition referred to
17 in this document is 120-millimetre mortars. The Bratunac Brigade had
18 120-millimetre mortars; right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And just go back one, you also had 82-millimetre mortars in your
21 inventory; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you had 122-millimetre Howitzers in your inventory; right?
24 A. Yes, yes, we did have 122 Howitzers.
25 Q. And you had 105-millimetre artillery weapons in your inventory --
1 or weapons capable of using 105-millimetre artillery shells in your
2 inventory; right?
3 A. Yes, yes, we did have that.
4 Q. All right. So I think that covers -- that covers just about
5 everything on the list that deals with heavier weapons, so we'll just
6 move on now to another topic. I'd just like to ask you briefly about
7 fuel. All right? Now, yesterday we talked about the process for supply
8 and resupply of weapons, and it worked the same way for fuel, didn't it?
9 Your units, Bratunac Brigade units, if they needed fuel, would ask the
10 brigade, you would ask the corps, who would then ask the Main Staff;
12 A. In principle, we were a brigade, and I, on behalf of the brigade,
13 asked the corps for fuel. The further procedure doesn't matter. If the
14 corps has fuel, they can provide some to us but they don't have to give
15 the requested quantity. They can give as much as they can, so it can be
16 less than what we had requested.
17 Q. Just putting the amounts aside for the moment, you've just agreed
18 that that would come through you in your capacity as logistics commander;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And so that being the case, perhaps you'll be able to agree with
22 me that the fuel that was requisitioned to evacuate the civilians from
23 Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995 came through you; right?
24 A. Well, one part through us, and another through the corps command.
25 The logistics of the corps.
1 Q. When the fuel provided by the corps logistics group came to your
2 stores in Bratunac, it came through you; right? You were the guy in
4 A. Not necessarily. If necessary, I will explain how things went on
5 that day, the 12th/13th of July.
6 Q. All right. Just before you launch into any explanation, are you
7 disagreeing with me that --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the previous answer indicates,
9 Ms. Edgerton, that the witness disagrees because he says "not
11 So, therefore, he at least partly disagrees with you, and I'd
12 like to hear the explanation.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may explain.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 For instance, the fuel that arrived from the Drina Corps, that is
17 to say, this truck arrived directly to the parking lot, the Vihor
18 parking, at the entrance into Bratunac. I said that in my statement.
19 The officers from corps logistics directly put that fuel into the buses
20 without us knowing about that.
21 The other part of the fuel that I mentioned that we received, 30
22 tonnes of diesel fuel, that was put into the Vihor fuel tank. We took
23 care of that, and we put it onto buses, or into buses, and in this way,
24 we justified the consumption of the fuel received.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. So, Mr. Trisic, are you saying you didn't know that on the 12th
2 of July, 1995 the Bratunac -- pardon me. The Drina Corps logistics
3 service provided the Bratunac Brigade with 12 -- 11.000 litres of diesel
5 A. Well, right this moment, I cannot recall. I'd need to see the
6 documents. Possibly we requested that fuel. We saw the documents
7 yesterday. So we asked for fuel. Now I'd really have to take a look at
8 the documents. The fuel probably did arrive?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a clarification.
10 Mr. Trisic, are you able to tell us how many litres are there in
11 30 tonnes of diesel?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think it's around there,
13 sort of, 30.000 litres would be 30 tonnes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. So since you don't seem to have any recollection without seeing a
17 document, I'll just show you one, Mr. Trisic.
18 MS. EDGERTON: And perhaps we could have a look at
19 65 ter number 06314.
20 Q. Mr. Trisic, this is a fuel receipt dated the 12th of July, 1995
21 confirming Bratunac Brigade received 6.000 litres of fuel from the
22 Drina Corps Command, and you countersigned it?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. That can be seen from this material list.
24 Q. So, when you gave evidence just a few minutes ago saying: "The
25 officers from the corps logistics directly put that fuel into the buses
1 without us knowing about that," that wasn't correct. The document shows,
2 at the time, you knew you were receiving large amounts of fuel from the
3 Drina Corps Command; right?
4 A. This is part of the fuel that we received in the brigade, this
5 6.000 litres. I said that the command, the logistics of the Drina Corps,
6 directly I mean, at the Vihor parking lot, at the entrance into Bratunac,
7 got fuel directly into buses and trucks. So it's not the same fuel.
8 This fuel arrived to us in the brigade, and the other part -- well, it
9 was the traffic service of the corps headed by
10 Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic, that did that at the Vihor parking lot.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Could I please have this document as a Prosecution
12 Exhibit, Your Honours?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7223, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. I'd like to move onto another area and forward in time,
18 Mr. Trisic, and I'd like to call up another document in that regard.
19 MS. EDGERTON: It's P1516.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Trisic, you've seen this document before, haven't you,
21 when you testified previously at this Tribunal as a Defence witness in
22 the Blagojevic and in the Popovic cases; right?
23 A. Yes, probably.
24 Q. It's an excerpt from the Bratunac Brigade reports and meetings
25 journal. And if we could go over to the next page, it refers to a
1 meeting dated 16 October 1995, a working meeting of the commander and the
2 Command Staff and the battalion commanders. And when you saw this
3 document during your testimony in the Blagojevic case, you confirmed you
4 attended the meeting. You see your name there in the third line down
5 after the citation to Colonel Blagojevic; don't you?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. So you were at the meeting.
8 A. Well, since that is what is written there, then I guess I was.
9 It's hard for me to remember that detail; it was such a long time ago.
10 But I accept that I was there.
11 Q. And if you go a little bit further down in the document to the
12 very bottom line, the very last line in both languages, English and
13 B/C/S, you see Mr. Nikolic reporting that they are currently engaged in
14 tasks issued by the Army of Republika Srpska Main Staff and in brackets
15 the word "asanacija" in your language, translated as "hygiene and
16 sanitation measures" in English.
17 So you would agree, then, that on the 16th October 1995, you
18 learned that the Main Staff had directed the reburial of bodies of the
19 men killed at Srebrenica; right?
20 A. Excuse me. Nikolic said that, and there was no comment. Now
21 what was being done, sanitization of the terrain, I have no comment.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you learned at
23 that time that this happened. You were not asked for comment.
24 Did you learn that at that time, that the Main Staff had
25 directed, as we see here, the hygiene and sanitation measures?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found out then.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. And just if I can take that one step further to go back to my
5 original question. You would agree, then, in light of the answer that
6 you've given to His Honour Judge Orie that on this date, 16 October 1995,
7 you learned that the Main Staff had directed the reburial of bodies of
8 the men killed at Srebrenica; right?
9 A. Well, I cannot say burial or reburial. In my statement, I said -
10 now was it in Srebrenica? - that's not stated. But in my statement, I
11 said that what happened, happened in the village of Kravica this
12 incident, excessive - how do I put this? - this attack against a guard,
13 and there was gun-fire, and there were casualties, there were dead and
14 I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: You're moving away from the question. The question
16 clearly was that whether, at that meeting, and having looked at the
17 report, whether you then learned that the Main Staff had directed the
18 reburial of bodies. You're not invited to explain what may have caused
19 those persons to die but whether you learned that the Main Staff had
20 directed the reburial of bodies of those men that were killed.
21 Did you learn that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It just turns out that's what
23 Captain Nikolic said.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's on paper. The question was whether you then
25 learned - and I use the words of the question - that the Main Staff of
1 the VRS had directed the reburial of the bodies.
2 Did you learn that or did you not learn that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, I heard that at that
4 meeting from Captain Nikolic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON:
7 Q. So the answer, then, is yes, isn't it?
8 A. Yes, it is, yes.
9 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further then, Your Honours. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Trisic, you just referred to Kravica. You
15 discussed that yesterday already. I would like to ask you about
16 paragraph 25 of your statement. There you say: "I heard that shots were
17 fired at the Kravica agricultural co-operative."
18 Can you explain that? What did you hear? Did you hear with your
19 own eyes [sic], the shots being fired, or did you hear rumours or stories
20 about the shots fired at Kravica warehouse?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard rumours, as you put
22 it. There were stories about shooting at the Kravica farm.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means everything what you know about the
24 incident, as you call it, in Kravica warehouse, that was told by others.
25 It's not what you personally observed or heard with your own ears;
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one or more questions to you.
5 But I'm first inquiring with Ms. Edgerton whether the questions
6 about fuel being provided is in relation to paragraph 23 of the
7 statement, I take it?
8 MS. EDGERTON: It wasn't, in particular, but it is certainly a
9 similar subject matter, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: In that context, yes.
11 Witness, in paragraph 23 of your statement, you say something
12 about the need to transport civilians. You said you also learned that
13 one fuel tanker from the Drina Corps Command had arrived because the
14 Vihor enterprise pump which was "providing fuel for the buses
15 transporting Muslim civilians from Potocari could not provide all the
16 fuel that was needed."
17 Now, who owned the fuel that was stored in the Vihor enterprise
18 pump? Was it owned by the company, or was it owned by your brigade?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That fuel tanker was property of
20 the Vihor company. We, as a brigade, we did not have a fuel tank. We
21 did not have a fuel storage, and that's why we used the services of the
22 Vihor transport company.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my -- do I then understand that the fuel
24 which was in there was yours, although you used the tank capacity of that
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Records were kept. The fuel in the
2 fuel tank belonged to the -- both to the company and to us, but we knew
3 what quantity belonged to us, and that's what we used. We used only the
4 quantity that belonged to us, and we could easily tell how much we owned
5 by consulting our fuel records.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that part of the fuel was
7 yours and part of the fuel was owned by the company.
8 So if I read paragraph 23 now with this additional information,
9 you're telling us that the quantity of fuel at your disposal, though
10 stored in the tanks of the Vihor enterprise, were not sufficient for the
11 transportation of Muslim civilians and that, therefore, the Drina Corps
12 directly delivered additional fuel for those transports.
13 Is that how I have to understand paragraph 23?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The overall transport was organised
15 by the corps. We were there just to assist. We were there to see where
16 fuel could be stored for further use in the buses.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But your own fuel was used for that as well, isn't
18 it? For the transport.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. We could not keep our
20 fuel. There was a requirement to transport the population. The Muslim
21 population requested that. A decision was made to transport them. We
22 couldn't then say, We will not give you our fuel, in view of the fact
23 that General Mladic had already agreed on that with the Muslims.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your fuel was used, and in addition to that,
25 directly the corps command provided additional fuel for that
2 That's, in short, how it was?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of the Dutch battalion
4 gave us a fuel tank full of fuel to assist us in order to provide the
5 full quantity of fuel needed.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have no further questions on this matter.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination for the witness?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honours.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] The fuel that you received, as you say, from the
11 Dutch battalion, where did you receive it?
12 A. We received it in the Vihor transport company, and it was loaded
13 into their fuel tank. I'm talking about the Vihor fuel station.
14 Q. That fuel that you received from the Dutch battalion, was it used
15 to transport the civilian population to Tuzla?
16 A. Yes. We received it by way of assistance which was needed to
17 secure a sufficient quantity of the fuel for this transport to Tuzla.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up
19 65 ter 06315.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, where does this arise, the UNPROFOR
21 fuel? Does that arise from think questions that were put to the witness
22 in cross-examination? He spoke about it, that's clear, but was he asked
23 about it?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honours. The
25 last question that was put by the Trial Chamber referred to that, and
1 there was also a -- a question put by the Prosecutor about that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for the last question put by me, I didn't ask
3 about it. The witness spontaneously came up with it. I didn't ask any
4 questions about the UNPROFOR fuel. And we'll check whether a specific
5 question was raised in that respect yesterday by Ms. Edgerton.
6 Perhaps you can assist, Ms. Edgerton. Did you ask specifically
7 about the UNPROFOR fuel? It's my recollection -- it's not my
8 recollection although the witness said something about 30 tonnes and I
9 think 25 tonnes, but ...
10 MS. EDGERTON: While I didn't ask specifically about UNPROFOR
11 fuel, Your Honour, in my submission, there is based on the
12 cross-examination, about fuel which we just went through today with one
13 document, there is some latitude available for a re-direct on issues of
14 fuel. Of course, I will be very attentive as to how far that goes --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm specifically talking about UNPROFOR fuel.
16 MS. EDGERTON: No, I did not have a question about UNPROFOR fuel,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Neither did I.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I see that a question was put yesterday, asking, in
21 general terms, about who provided fuel, and, therefore, you may proceed,
22 Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for
24 this decision.
25 Q. You see a document before you. I would kindly ask you to look at
1 the B/C/S text on the left-hand side. The date is 13 July 1995. You can
2 see that in the upper left corner. And where it says military post, you
3 can read 7042. And below that, again the title of the sender, UNHCR
4 Srebrenica, and -- and recipient 7042, Bratunac.
5 First question: Who is 7042 Bratunac?
6 A. This is the military post of the Light Infantry Brigade in
8 Q. The next column is receipt of diesel fuel D-2. And to the right,
9 quantity received: 30.000 litres.
10 Is this the fuel that was received around that time? And you
11 spoke about that as something that was needed for the transport of the
12 civilian population from Potocari to Tuzla?
13 A. Yes, yes, that's the fuel which was received and used for the
14 transport of the civilian population.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to look
17 at another document --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'll intervene again.
19 First of all, I now carefully verified, you asked a question
20 which I just referred to. It was not the Prosecution. You asked
21 yesterday a question about -- from whom fuel was received. You were the
22 only one. So, therefore, it does not arise specifically out of
24 At the same time, yesterday the witness testified that they
25 received 30 tonnes of diesel fuel from UNPROFOR.
1 Today -- and then the witness said they received 23 and a half
2 thousand litres; 23.300 from UNHCR so you were the only one who raised
3 the matter specifically and now you put to the witness a document which
4 indicates that 30.000 litres were received from UNHCR, not from UNPROFOR.
5 You should have done that yesterday by yourself. Knowing of this
6 document, you should have further examined the witness on whether they
7 had received the 30.000 litres from UNPROFOR or from UNHCR.
8 Now, I'll let you go with the next document, but please keep in
9 mind that the Chamber appreciates orderly proceeding.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like
11 to call up 65 ter 04164.
12 Q. Mr. Trisic, what you can see before you is a document which I
13 would like to discuss with you.
14 Could you please tell us what is this? This is a paper
15 documenting the receipt and issuance of fuels and lubricants?
16 A. This is about the issuance of fuel to buses, i.e., vehicles that
17 needed fuel for transport. You can see the registration plate number of
18 the vehicles, and the military post, the date, 14 July 1995, the quantity
19 of the fuel received, and the driver's signature.
20 Q. In the lower right corner, as far as we can see, there is a
21 handwritten name after the text: Order, issuer. Please pay attention to
22 the lower right corner. Try and see if you can read the name of the
23 person who gave the order.
24 A. Under 32, it says Tomislav Basevic and below that, 33,
25 M. Vasiljevic.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be instructed to speak
2 into the microphone.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do these names ring a bell?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please speak more directly into
6 the microphone. Perhaps the microphone could be slightly adjusted if the
7 witness looks at his screen.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat? Under 32 it says
9 Tomislav Basevic. And under 33, M. Vasiljevic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do these names ring a bell?
12 A. Tomislav Basevic was a member of the technical service of the
13 Drina Corps.
14 As for Vasiljevic, I can't remember him. I don't know who he is.
15 Q. Thank you. When you see the column where it says "issued,
16 received," under 24, as well as quantities of the fuel issued and
17 received, could you please tell us whether you have any immediate
18 knowledge as to where that fuel was issued to the persons who signed as
19 the recipients of the fuel under 25?
20 A. Twenty-five? Since Lieutenant-Colonel Tomislav Basevic signed
21 this, this fuel was not issued from the fuel tank of the Vihor company.
22 It was probably issued at the parking lot of the Vihor company where the
23 fuel tank of the Drina Corps was located.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
1 tender these two documents, 65 ter 06315 and 65 ter 04164 into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter number 06315 will be
4 Exhibit D940.
5 And 65 ter number 04164 will be Exhibit D941.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence.
7 Witness, could you tell us what military post code 7469 stands
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was a question by the Presiding Judge for
10 you, Witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer that question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. You said military
13 post 7469. It's neither here nor there. These -- or, rather, this is
14 proof that buses and vehicles came from various military posts.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm asking you simply whether you know what
16 military post code 7469 stands for.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That the vehicle is property of
18 that military post.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What is that military post? That's my question.
20 Not whether the vehicle is owned by ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I leave it to that, but you asked
23 the witness about what one could conclude from column 25. The witness
24 then said that on the basis of what he saw under 32, he drew some
25 conclusions, and you left it to that.
1 Therefore, he's dealing with a matter not the matter you raised,
2 and I just draw your attention to that.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Trisic, you were shown a document which I would like to call
6 up again.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P1516.
8 Q. This is a report or, rather, a copy of the minutes dated
9 16 October of the Bratunac Brigade.
10 Do you have any recollection whether, on that occasion,
11 Momir Nikolic described the sanitization activity which was under way,
12 very specifically?
13 A. No, I have no recollection, no specific recollection. That was
14 such a long time ago that it is impossible to remember specific details.
15 Q. When it comes to your military education, is it of the kind that
16 you would be able to tell the Trial Chamber how do you define the term
17 sanitization or hygiene measure -- measures of the area?
18 A. I don't know how to define it. It would be the cleaning of the
19 area. Something of that kind?
20 Q. Did you know whether in the area where the 28th Division column
21 passed and where combat had taken place, there was a need to, as you say,
22 clean the area?
23 A. I don't know that.
24 Q. Did your brigade have any particular engagement with regard to
25 the cleaning of the areas that you would know of?
1 A. The brigade was not engaged in that way. I don't know anything
2 about that.
3 Q. And let me finish with the question: Did you personally have an
4 occasion to see any document which originated from the Main Staff of the
5 Army of Republika Srpska and that dealt with the obligation of any unit
6 to be engaged in the sanitization of the area?
7 A. No, I did not have occasion to see any such document originating
8 from a superior command.
9 Q. Mr. Trisic, thank you for your answers on behalf of the Defence
10 of General Mladic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, which have no
12 further questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Judge Moloto has a question for you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Trisic, you were being asked by Mr. Stojanovic
16 about whether the 28th Division column passed and where combat had take
18 Now, in relation to this document that's on the screen, do you
19 know whether the 28th Division was anywhere around there in October of
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In October 1995?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where it could have
24 been. It wasn't in our area, I think.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in this meeting of the 16th of October 1995,
1 Nikolic is talking about sanitation that you have just been tasked to do;
2 isn't it so?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have information as
4 to where this was carried out.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... where it was
6 carried out. I'm saying you have agreed that this statement by Nikolic
7 on the 16th of October in the meeting is referring to you -- your -- your
8 people being tasked to do some sanitation in October of 1995.
9 Am I right?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That we were carrying out the
11 sanitization of the terrain? No.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking whether you carried out the
13 sanitation. I am saying you are being told in this meeting by Nikolic
14 that the Main Staff of the VRS has tasked your unit with sanitation.
15 He's telling you this statement on the 16th of October, 1995.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not carry out sanitization
17 of the terrain.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I stop you. I stop you there. Please listen to
19 my question. I'm not asking you whether you carried out sanitation. I'm
20 saying you are having a meeting on the 16th of October, you're being told
21 that the VRS Main Staff has given an order that you take -- undertake
22 sanitation measures. This is on the 16th of October. And on that date,
23 you're saying the 28th Division was nowhere in your area.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud. No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.
25 No speaking aloud. You may consult with counsel at inaudible volume.
1 Please proceed.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
3 Are you going to answer my question? If you don't want to answer
4 or if you don't know -- in fact, you cannot not know.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, Your Honour,
6 Judge, how to express myself.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If you don't know how to express yourself,
8 thank you so much.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I have --
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I apologise for what might
11 be construed as an interruption. I'm just noting the time. Just for
12 purposes of scheduling, and I wanted to let Your Honours know based on
13 what we just heard, I would have another seven to ten minutes' worth of
14 questions after the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will do that after the break.
16 I would like, however, to put one other question to the witness
17 before the break.
18 Witness, Captain Nikolic, was he within your brigade?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was in our brigade.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we read in this document that Captain Nikolic
21 says, We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the ... Main Staff on
23 You emphasised several times that your brigade was not involved
24 in that at all. Do you have any explanation why Captain Nikolic is
25 recorded as saying, We are engaged; whereas, you say the brigade was not
2 Do you have an explanation for why your testimony squarely
3 contradicts what we see in this document?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assert that as assistant
5 commander for logistics in the Bratunac Brigade, I did not know, I was
6 not informed that this sanitization of the terrain was being carried out.
7 Captain Nikolic worked in the intelligence security service, so I cannot
8 decipher what it was that he meant, that he would be doing it, somebody
9 else would be doing it, but as assistant commander for logistics of the
10 brigade did not carry out sanitization, and I was not aware of this being
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hear that. But you said the brigade was not
13 involved. But what you're telling us now is that you have no information
14 whatsoever about an involvement of the brigade, although, by not knowing,
15 you cannot exclude that the brigade was involved.
16 Is that how we have to understand your testimony?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, as assistant commander for
18 logistics, did not have any vehicles and did not provide any vehicles for
19 these obligations. Not fuel either or personnel.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You were not involved; that's understood.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll take a break.
23 Ms. Edgerton, you'll have a few more minutes after the break.
24 You may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in 20
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 11.00.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
8 In order to avoid whatever confusion, when earlier today, P7049
9 was admitted into evidence, it was Rule 65 ter 14008a that was admitted,
10 and not the 65 ter document that was previously uploaded and for which
11 the number P7049 was reserved.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
15 Further cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
16 Q. Mr. Trisic, I want to ask you some further questions based on the
17 answers you've just given to my colleague. Just to see if we can tie up
18 one brief matter with respect to D941, you were asked a question, in
19 fact, by Their Honours about a certain military post number and it was a
20 VP 7469. That's actually, in fact, that's the military post number for
21 the Zvornik Brigade isn't it?
22 A. Believe it or not, I cannot remember.
23 Q. And -- all right. That's fine. And we'll go on to the next
24 larger area I want to deal with.
25 Just before the break, you effectively told Their Honours that
1 this asanacija -- that did you not know and were not informed about the
2 asanacija of the terrain before the 16th of October; right? That's your
3 position you didn't know about it because that what's you said?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Good. So I want to ask you some questions about that.
6 First of all, I'd like you to confirm the evidence that you gave
7 in the Popovic cases during your examination-in-chief about the bodies
8 from Kravica. And I can even show it to you, if you want.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter number 32290.
10 We can go directly to e-court, page 61.
11 Q. Just to try and speed things up, I want to show it to you.
12 Now I'm going read this to you. The question at line 4: "And
13 tell me" -- this is to Mr. Lazarevic:
14 "Q. And tell me whether if at any point in time you learned that
15 the bodies of those killed in the Kravica farmer's co-operative were
16 buried in a grave in the village of Glogova?"
17 Your answer is: "Yes. I did have that information a day or two
18 afterwards. I found out from my friend who was engaged on that task that
19 the burial was completed of those who were killed in the Glogova village
21 So you stand by that evidence? You gave it in your
22 examination-in-chief as a Defence witness in Popovic. You stand by that
23 evidence; right.
24 A. That was sometime in the month of July. A friend of mine who
25 worked -- who was engaged on this sanitization said that to me. That was
2 Q. So -- so my question is: You stand by the evidence you gave in
3 the Popovic case; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. So what's the name of the friend who was engaged on
6 that task? In the burial.
7 A. That's a friend of mine who worked in civilian protection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked the name. Could you please
9 tell us who it was.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name, Dragan. Dragan Mirkovic.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Thank you. Now I just want to remind you for a couple of minutes
13 of what was going on in September and October 1995 in the area of
14 responsibility of your brigade and surrounding. What was going on was
15 that thousands of Bosnian Muslim men who were -- had been killed at
16 Branjevo, in Kozluk, Petkovci Dam, Orahovac and Kravica were moved from
17 mass graves in Bratunac and Zvornik to other mass graves in Bratunac and
18 Zvornik, and that included over a thousand people who had been buried in
20 So I'm not going -- I'm going to get to my question in a minute
21 but I just wanted to remind you of that evidence. And I want to read to
22 you what one witness who didn't testify in this trial but was interviewed
23 by the Office of the Prosecutor in November 2001 said about what was
24 going on, and then I will ask you a question.
25 That witness said, in the context of that operation: "There were
1 lorries transporting bodies for hours. Even children along the side of
2 the road were finding arms and legs. I do know that," he said that.
3 And then he was asked: "Did you see that?
4 And he answered: "I didn't see that, but I could smell it. I
5 could smell the stench."
6 And then he was asked: "Where were you when you could smell it?
7 "I was in the flat," he replied.
8 And then the question was: "In Bratunac?"
9 And he said: "Yes."
10 And then he continued, saying: "I know what the stench was when
11 I smelled it because it's a very characteristic smell of a human body
12 which is decomposing."
13 Now, here's my question, Mr. Trisic: I'd like you to explain how
14 it's possible when you had an apartment on the main road in Bratunac,
15 50 metres across the street from the Hotel Fontana, that you didn't know
16 about the decomposing bodies that were being transferred throughout the
17 municipality at that time? Because everybody knew.
18 A. I said and I maintain that, regardless of where I live, I didn't
19 feel that or see that. Most of the time I was at the brigade command so
20 I still maintain that I did not see that or feel that, what you said,
21 this unpleasant smell.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
25 Witness, Mr. Trisic, this concludes your evidence in this case.
1 We'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague - it's a long
2 journey - and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,
3 were put to you by the parties and were put to you by the Bench. I wish
4 you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge, sir.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 MS. EDGERTON: And Mr. McCloskey and I will now take our leave
8 with Your Honours' permission.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the Prosecution is still represented
10 in this courtroom, Mr. Weber and Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're on course for getting the response
12 regarding the extension of time for tomorrow.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, you said yesterday tomorrow or the day
14 after tomorrow, so that still is within your time estimate.
15 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
16 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. The next witness would be
17 General Dragisa Masal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
19 Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Good morning again.
21 The Prosecution just had one matter before the witness takes the
22 stand. The Prosecution requests that this witness get a 90(E)
23 admonishment, actually before he begins his testimony based on the
24 contents of the statement. A specific example would be paragraph 28. I
25 don't know if the Defence has any view on this.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: As Your Honours know, we have always left that to
4 the discretion of the Chamber to determine whether 90(E) is appropriate
5 or not. We don't have an objection to the proposal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And, as you know, the Chamber not knowing what
7 questions to be put to the witness always leaves it to the parties to
8 consider whether it would be appropriate or not, and apparently you do
9 not challenge this provisional judgement that it would be appropriate by
10 the Prosecution.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Masal. Before you give evidence,
13 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now
14 handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: DRAGISA MASAL
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
20 Mr. Masal, before the Defence will start its examination, I'd
21 like to draw your attention to Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and
22 Evidence, and I'll read it for you.
23 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
24 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
25 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
1 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
2 offence other than false testimony."
3 In short, if you feel that an answer might tend to incriminate
4 yourself, a truthful answer, you may address me and ask to be relieved
5 from answering that question.
6 Is that clear to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, perfectly clear.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you know that you're -- you've just given
9 the solemn declaration. You know that if you answer a question it should
10 be a truthful answer.
11 You'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic is a member
12 of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, and you'll find Mr. Ivetic standing to
13 your left.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. With the assistance of the
16 usher if we could have a hard copy of the statement first shown to
17 Prosecution counsel and eventually given to the witness. It will help us
18 as we get to that stage.
19 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
20 Q. Good day, General. Can I ask you to first state your full name,
21 first and last, for the purposes of entering the same into our record.
22 A. Good day, Your Honours. Good day to all present here in this
23 courtroom. I am Dragisa Masal, born on the 20th of November, 1951, in
24 the village of Vardiste, municipality of Visegrad, Republika Srpska. I
25 have completed elementary school and high school. That I completed in
1 the place where I was born.
2 Q. Sir, I don't think we need that additional information at this
4 Did you have occasion to give a witness statement to the members
5 of General Mladic's Defence team?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, usually it goes better if you have the band
8 on top of your head rather than behind. At the top.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up in e-court 1D1642.
10 Q. And, sir, you have been given a hard copy in front of you. You
11 can either follow on the monitor or on that hard copy. And I'd like to
12 first ask you if you recognise the handwritten signature on the first
13 page of the same, if you could tell us whose signature that is?
14 A. Yes, I recognise the signature. It is my very own.
15 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the last page of the document
16 in both languages.
17 Q. Sir, there is also a handwritten signature on this page. Could
18 you identify for us the author of that signature?
19 A. Likewise, my signature.
20 Q. And there's a handwritten date on here that looks like the 28th
21 of July, 2014. Does that date match your recollection of the date that
22 you would have signed this statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion
25 to read the same, to see if everything is written correctly or if
1 corrections are needed?
2 A. Yes, I read the text, and I spotted certain technical errors. In
3 essence, they do not alter the sense of my statement. However, there are
4 technical errors.
5 Q. I'd like to go through some of those with you now. If we could
6 first turn to page 2 in both versions and focus on paragraph number 2,
7 and is there any correction that you need to make in relation to the
8 posts that you held before the outbreak of the war?
9 A. In paragraph 2, line 2, the words "battalion commander" should be
10 deleted because I was not a battalion commander.
11 Q. And in this same paragraph, are there any corrections needed to
12 the last part of the paragraph relating to your position after the war?
13 A. In the last line of the same paragraph, it reads: "...sector
14 chief at the newly formed... staff."
15 This should read: At the newly formed General Staff of the Army
16 of Republika Srpska.
17 Q. Okay. And now, sir, in relation to the first sentence in this
18 paragraph, I note that the English translation says: "Before the war
19 started in the former Yugoslavia, I held ..."
20 Can you -- whereas the Serbian seems to have "former JNA" instead
21 of "former Yugoslavia." Can you confirm which -- which is the
22 appropriate entry for this paragraph?
23 A. In my view, it should say: "Before the beginning of the war, in
24 the former JNA, I discharged duties." This means that I discharged
25 certain duties in the former JNA.
1 Q. Okay. Now on page 7 in the Serbian, page 8 in the English, and
2 paragraph 16, what correction do you have in relation to the information
3 that you had received from Gorazde which is reflected in this paragraph?
4 A. In line 2 of this paragraph, it says that the Muslim civilian
5 population in Gorazde, and so on and so forth. This should be replaced
6 by the following: "The Serbian civilian population in Gorazde was used
7 for military purpose, i.e. -- purposes, i.e., for performing some works
8 in the rear."
9 Q. Okay. And now in relation to paragraph 17 on the same page, what
10 correction did you wish to inform us of in relation to this paragraph?
11 A. Please bear with me.
12 In line 4: "The Muslim forces are kept under permanent blockade
13 in order to prevent their insertion ..."
14 This is how the paragraph should read. At the moment the word
15 "to prevent" is missing.
16 Q. Okay. Now if we can turn to page 8 in the Serbian, page 10 in
17 the English and focus on paragraph 21, and now that we have it on the
18 screen, do you have a correction in relation to what is contained in this
20 A. Please bear with me.
21 In line 1 of this paragraph, it says: "I was often briefed
22 through regular combat reports," there is a grammatical error in B/C/S.
23 In B/C/S, the word "through" is used improperly.
24 Q. Okay. Now --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you clarify how it -- how should it read now?
1 What is the correct wording?
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Could you repeat, sir, the correct wording in B/C/S, in Serbian.
4 A. I shall try to explain. "I was often briefed via regular combat
5 reports" or "through regular combat reports." In the current B/C/S
6 version, the word used is "from regular combat reports."
7 But that would mean that a combat report is a living being that
8 submits certain information to me. However, a combat report is a
9 document which somebody sends and that somebody is a subordinated
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the English version is
12 correct and that there may be a grammatical error in the original but
13 that doesn't create any confusion at this moment, I would say.
14 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC: If we could look at page 11 in the English, page 10
17 in the Serbian and look at paragraph 23.
18 I note, sir, that in the second-to-last sentence of English the
19 word "General Staff" appears but in the Serbian we only see the initials
20 GS. Can you tell us to what entity the GS refers to as contained in your
21 Serbian original.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see the transcript reflects on line 10
24 of this page that we're looking at paragraph 23. However, I believe it
25 may be paragraph 25.
1 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. Nope.
2 JUDGE ORIE: 23, fourth line from the bottom in English, talks
3 about General Staff.
4 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 MR. WEBER: I missed that then. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And that's apparently what are you referring to.
8 MR. IVETIC: That's right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's let the witness answer the question.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. It's in the top line in the B/C/S since 23 started on the last
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what the GS as you find it in the
14 middle of the top line on this page in B/C/S what it stands for?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Main Staff.
16 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 Q. And now if we can go to page 13 in English, page 11 in Serbian,
21 and now look at paragraph 25. And if you could tell us, sir, what
22 correction you feel is necessary to, I believe, the last sentence in this
24 A. The penultimate word. I shall read the beginning of that phrase:
25 "And the corps would then fail to include this in its report."
1 This is incorrect. "And the corps in its report does not include
2 this subordinated commands report to the superior commands and the
3 superior commands inform the subordinated commands."
4 That's the essence of this error and this sentence.
5 Q. Okay. And if we can turn to page 13 in the Serbian and page 14
6 in the English, and focus on paragraph 28 of your statement, what
7 correction do you have that you wish to bring to our attention in
8 relation to this paragraph?
9 A. Please bear with me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: While the witness is thinking about it, Mr. Ivetic,
11 for the previous correction, "the failed to be replaced" by "not
12 include," is that in the B/C/S also incorrectly phrased?
13 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Or is it just the English version that does not --
15 MR. IVETIC: I thought it was just the English, but I'll have to
16 check just to be sure.
17 I might have to go back to that one because I don't see that it's
18 actually clear from the answer of the witness whether it's a grammatical
19 error or a substantive correction. I will go back to that.
20 Q. If we could first finish up with paragraph 28, sir, what is the
21 correction that you had in there.
22 A. I'm still looking. I would need to ...
23 Q. If I can assist, the -- the third line of 28 --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- in the Serbian version, that reads as follows: "Gives basic
1 tasks to the units which are carrying out orders."
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. What -- what, if any, corrections are there to that phrase in
4 paragraph 28.
5 A. "Gives basic tasks to the units which are carrying out orders."
6 It should read: "Gives basic tasks to the units which are
7 carrying out the operation," or "which are engaged in combat."
8 Q. Now, if we can go back to page 13 in the English, page 11 in the
9 Serbian, the paragraph in question is paragraph 25, and I would ask you
10 again to explain for us what precisely is the correction that you
11 indicated should be in the last part of that paragraph, the last -- was
12 it the last line? I --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be better to read the correct version of
14 the full last sentence. Sometimes subordinate units ..."
15 MR. IVETIC: That's an excellent suggestion.
16 Q. Sir, could you read how the last sentence of paragraph 25 ought
17 to read, including your correction.
18 A. Yes. "Sometimes subordinated units of the brigade reported to
19 the corps about a particular event, incident and the like, and the corps
20 would then not inform the Main Staff about that."
21 The first part of the sentence is correct. Brigade does, indeed,
22 report to the corps. According to the same analogy, i.e., according to
23 the military terminology the corps command should inform the Main Staff.
24 The principle in military subordination implies that the subordinate unit
25 reports to the superior unit whereas a superior unit informs the
1 subordinate unit. The error arises from military terminology and the
2 notion of military subordination.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And how should the sentence read now?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just read out the correct
5 verse of the sentence. It should read: "And the corps would then fail
6 to include this in its information to the General Staff."
7 Not in its report to the General Staff, but in its information to
8 the General Staff.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And do we then have to understand that they
10 sometimes do not include it in the information to the Main Staff, or that
11 it's never included, or is it that just it could be left out sometimes?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is only about
13 terminology. The penultimate word, "a subordinate" cannot send
14 information to the superior. A subordinate unit reports to the superior
15 unit. That is the difference in terminology between the word "informs,"
16 on the one hand, and "reports" on the other.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, any further communication with the
19 public gallery will result in you being removed from the courtroom.
20 Is that clear to you? You better turn in ... and address ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I leave it to you to clarify the matter,
23 but to say that it -- of course, this Chamber is not only interested in
24 terminology, this Chamber is interested in substance.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I can tell you that at issue is the
2 difference between two Serbian words, if I can find the Serbian version
3 in front of me, which the witness has explained in Serbian and we've
4 gotten the translation of. He has identified the second to last word in
5 that sentence that currently in the B/C/S version reads "obavesti" and is
6 indicating that it should read "izvesti." But we're not getting
7 translation of either, so that doesn't really help the English speakers.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly does not. Of course, what the Chamber
9 is interested in is what information reached the higher-up levels. I
10 mean, that's basically what I think is important for us to know and
11 whether sometimes the format or the form in which that happened may be
12 relevant, important, but most of all is what information reached the
13 higher levels.
14 MR. IVETIC: And that I believe is contained in --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Both versions?
16 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move on. If you feel that further
18 clarification is needed, you'll certainly find a way to find that in your
19 further examination.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: And if we could turn to page 5 in both versions, we
23 had uploaded, I believe yesterday, a new English translation from CLSS to
24 correct -- there was a missing paragraph that was contained in the
25 Serbian signed original that was not in -- a subparagraph, I should say,
1 that was not in the English translation, and in uploading that
2 translation that we had from CLSS, I have been advised and I have now
3 confirmed that there is now in paragraph 11 the first sentence in the
4 English is not in the signed original. We will -- the Prosecution is
5 aware of this; they're the ones who pointed it out to me. Therefore we
6 will have to correct the English translation and upload a new translation
7 and I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention and put it on the
8 record so that we will not be tendering the document after the 92 ter
9 procedure is done, we'll be tendering it to be marked for identification
10 once we finished the remaining aspects of that procedure. But, of
11 course, this is something that is not -- there's no correction to be made
12 to the original. It's just the translation that has that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: The translation contains lines which are not -- do
14 not appear in the original?
15 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour. Not lines, a
16 sentence, the first sentence in 11.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that would trigger a few questions on how
18 possibly can lines which do not appear in the original suddenly appear on
19 a translation.
20 Has the original, as signed, been submitted to CLSS?
21 MR. IVETIC: It has Your Honour and this is -- both the
22 translation that was missing the second subparagraph in paragraph 27 and
23 this one are CLSS translations, is my understanding.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The English version now contains a long first
1 sentence which was not contained in the attachment to the 92 ter motion.
2 What I see now on the screen is -- in the English version, I
3 think complete in comparison to the previously submitted version.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Ivetic, could you give us -- we'll
5 reserve a number for the document. Could you inform the Chamber in
6 detail about what happened with an original which was partly not
7 translated then and other lines were apparently added in the translation
8 which really comes as a surprise. Because the interpreter -- the
9 translator would then have invented new text and that really is so
10 surprising that the Chamber would like to know how this happened. We
11 have your initial explanation on the screen now. We'll reserve a number
12 for the statement.
13 MR. IVETIC: We haven't yet done the 92 ter procedure in full.
14 It's too early to reserve a number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Reserving a number for admission I would agree, but
16 I think it would be good to seek attestations. Of course, at the same
17 time, Mr. Ivetic, the issue is attestation to what exactly, because we
18 seek an attestation to what the witness has read and we have to know
19 exactly what he reviewed whether that was the version that is now on our
21 MR. IVETIC: It is. In Serbian.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay fine.
23 MR. IVETIC: He obviously did not read the English.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do understand that. But just to be sure that
25 the questions that were raised a minute ago ask for great accuracy in
1 this respect.
2 Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just so we have a clear record, the
4 Prosecution's position is that the first sentence should be redacted up
5 to the word or the phrase "civilian population to," then the period.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that is in the English you would say.
8 MR. WEBER: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed with the
10 attestations and ... take -- take the B/C/S as the basis for it, if
11 that's what the witness reviewed.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 Q. Sir, apart from these corrections we've gone through today, do
15 you stand by the remainder of your statement as signed in the Serbian
16 language as being accurate?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If I were to ask you questions today on the same topics as in
19 your written statement, would your answers today be, in substance -- be
20 the same in substance as written in that statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, sir, since you have taken the solemn declaration today to
23 tell the truth, does that mean that your statement is truthful in nature?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. IVETIC: Then, Your Honours we would ask for the 1D01642 to
1 be marked for identification pending resolution of the transcript.
2 Pardon me, of the translation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI D942, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
6 Mr. Weber, anticipating that we finally will resolve the matter,
7 are there any objections against admission if everything has been sorted
9 MR. WEBER: You're correct, Your Honour, no, there wouldn't be
10 with that redaction.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: We also have a reduced number of associated exhibits
14 that we would tender at this time. The number is 14. I would at this
15 time bring to everyone's attention that three of the documents that we
16 are not tendering have already been introduced into evidence but under
17 different 65 ter numbers. It was a identical document that had two
18 different numbers, so the document that is identified as 1D03000 in the
19 statement is already in evidence -- oh. Is already in evidence as
20 P05173. And the document identified in the statement as 1D03014 is
21 already in evidence as P01977. And the document referred to in the
22 statement that we identified as 65 ter number 19198 is already in
23 evidence as P02006.
24 At this point I don't know if you want me to read the 65 ter
25 numbers of the documents that remain or if you want to do that by written
1 means after the examination. I can do either.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be best that Mr. Registrar prepares
3 a list of the remaining and perhaps already provisionally assigns numbers
4 to it. But, Mr. Weber, you're on your feet.
5 MR. WEBER: It's my understanding that the rest of the associated
6 exhibits are being tendered. We have no objection with that so I just
7 want to put that on the record.
8 MR. IVETIC: There's one more, I think. Also, there is one that
9 is identified as 65 ter number 08977 which received a number P00780 and
10 was marked not admitted. And I believe that's the one that counsel and I
11 talked about before the witness started and we would tender it at this
12 time since now two witnesses have talked about that document. It was
13 previously marked not admitted as P00780.
14 MR. WEBER: That's correct. It's an associated exhibit now to
15 two different statements of witnesses in this case. Simply the Chamber
16 is going to need the document to understand what the separate witnesses
17 are saying about the material. It should not be admitted.
18 MR. IVETIC: You're recorded as saying, "not be admitted."
19 MR. WEBER: It should be -- we would like. Thank you,
20 Mr. Ivetic. And that is our correct position.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And you tender it now --
22 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- as well, and it already been assigned that
25 We are talking about 65 ter 08977 which was -- had already P780.
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And now since both parties are seeking admission of
3 that ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, apart from what further remains,
6 65 ter 08977 is now admitted under the same P number, that is P780.
7 All the rest, numbers will be reserved. We'll receive a list
8 from Mr. Registrar and we'll then decide on admission.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours I would like to read the
11 witness summary for the public.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
13 MR. IVETIC: The witness, Dragisa Masal, is a retired
14 lieutenant-general of the VRS. He joined the VRS after its formation and
15 served as a colonel until the end of 1995. In the VRS, he hold the posts
16 of artillery regiment commander, commander of the Visegrad Tactical
17 Group, and chief of artillery at the Main Staff. After the war, he was
18 sector chief in the newly formed VRS General Staff.
19 He served as commander of the Visegrad Tactical Group from
20 February 1993 to 20 August 1994. When demilitarization of the areas of
21 Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde was announced, the VRS took the same
22 seriously. The weapons of the Zepa Brigade were to be collected and
23 placed in storage of UNPROFOR and a double-key system: One key with
24 UNPROFOR and one key with the VRS. This never happened. The commission
25 for Gorazde never went there and the procedure was not implemented.
1 In Srebrenica, the reports from the superior command were that
2 the demilitarization was not fully implemented as only defective and
3 hunting weapons were surrendered.
4 The VRS adhered to cease-fire agreements tied to the
5 establishment of safe areas, despite provocations from the ABiH. The
6 witness says that UNPROFOR did not show any intention of carrying out the
7 task concerning the conduct of demilitarization.
8 The Visegrad Tactical Group did not cause problems for the
9 passage of convoys to Gorazde or Zepa. The witness recalls abuses of
10 these convoys to smuggle excess fuel, telephones, rifle clips, and film
11 in the stated cargo.
12 The witness recalled four villages between Rogatica and Visegrad
13 that had Muslim inhabitants and that were unarmed and stayed and received
14 humanitarian aid from the civilian authorities of the Republika Srpska.
15 When unknown individuals engaged in occasional provocations of these
16 villages, the civilian authorities and frequent interventions of the
17 1st Rogatica Brigade commander contributed to giving full protection to
18 this Muslim population.
19 In August 1994, the witness was transferred to the Main Staff as
20 chief of artillery. Because the staffing levels at the Main Staff were
21 so low, he had to do other duties in addition to his own duties as chief
22 of artillery.
23 The witness retired in 1998.
24 And that ends the public summary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: I see we're over the time. Did we start at 11.00?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are certainly at a time for a break.
3 Would you have any further questions for the witness? Because
4 you spent far more than your usual 30 minutes to introduce the evidence
5 of this witness.
6 MR. IVETIC: In light of all the corrections I asked for the time
7 to be increased to an hour when I sent the information report a few days
8 ago so I will be within that one-hour time estimate, I believe.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, needless to say, if there is a
10 translation issue, you should just provide a new translation rather than
11 to go with the witness about what is wrong in the English version, but
12 where the B/C/S/ version is okay. I mean, that's not something that you
13 have to go through the witness with. So in that respect, you may not
14 have used your time in the most efficient way, but let's not focus too
15 much on that. We'll ask Mr. Registrar how much time have you used until
16 now and you will have up to one hour.
17 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. We take a
18 break first. You may follow the usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: And to give you some guidance, Mr. Ivetic, you have
21 used 43 minutes until now, so you have 17 minutes left.
22 We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think I'm reading the transcript now.
3 I see that my math is usually better. I think I said 17 minutes left,
4 because 43 plus 17, in my view, is still 60. Just that you do not expect
5 to have ten minutes more than I think you're entitled to at this moment.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
9 Q. General, I do have some questions for you. As you've heard, our
10 time is tight so I ask that you try to keep your answers as brief as
12 If we could turn to page 3 in the English and Serbian of your
13 statement and look at paragraph number 5, you talk about a commission set
14 up for Gorazde that never went there. What is the bases of your
15 knowledge that the commission of Gorazde never even went there?
16 A. Yes, that's for sure. Because Lieutenant-Colonel
17 Luka Dragicevic, my deputy, was a member of that commission.
18 Q. Okay. If we can turn to page 5 in both versions of your
19 statement and look at paragraph number 11, could you tell us, sir, what
20 caused the damage to the power grid that's described in paragraph 11?
21 A. May I just say that in Visegrad during the war or, rather, before
22 the war, a hydroelectric power plant had been built and it operated at a
23 lesser capacity at first but most of the time at full capacity. And it
24 provided electricity to the region of Sarajevo and partly the broader
25 area of Tuzla and further on, all of Bosnia and Herzegovina. During war
1 operations, the primary grid for the transmission of electric power was
2 seriously damaged, especially transmission lines from Visegrad to
3 Sarajevo, in that area, and towards Tuzla via Zepa, Zvornik, towards
5 Q. Were any efforts undertaken to repair the power grid; and, if so,
6 by whom?
7 A. Experts from the Visegrad hydroelectric power plant and from
8 Elektroprenos in Pale and all the other electricity companies in the area
9 worked on repairing the damage. In that situation, only some of the
10 damage could have been redressed. As for a full repair of the grid, that
11 could not have been carried out until the end of the war.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, your previous question was not
13 answered. The question: What caused the damage.
14 MR. IVETIC: I believe it was Your Honours, where it says --
15 JUDGE ORIE: And three Judges agree it was not.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He said only that it was damaged during the war.
17 MR. IVETIC: During war operations.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: During is a time. And it doesn't say by whom. It
21 doesn't say exactly by what, but we got a long explanation as what the
22 damage was, something you had not asked.
23 Please keep -- if you're limiting your time, keep tight control
24 over the witness.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. General, do you address the question of how the power grid was
3 damaged, by what was it damaged?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask one question, don't ask two, please. By who
5 or by whom. He has explained how. Your question was by whom.
6 MR. IVETIC: No, it wasn't, Your Honour. I never asked whom I
7 asked how or what caused the damage. Not by whom.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I take you to what you said.
9 Line 19, page 50: "Okay if we can turn to page 5 in both
10 versions of your statement and look at paragraph 11 could you tell us,
11 sir, what caused ..."
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and that's exactly what I just
13 asked and that Your Honours are objecting to. I don't understand Your
14 Honour's objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You phrased it differently, and I understand now
16 that you intended to ask the same question. Let it be put to the witness
18 What caused the damage to the power grid? Could you please
19 answer that question in one or two lines.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that -- that high voltage
21 transmission lines from the hydroelectric power plant from Visegrad
22 leading to Sarajevo were damaged through the activity of sabotage groups
23 that were infiltrated from the area of Gorazde. Two metal pillars were
24 completely destroyed. The lines going to Tuzla were destroyed somewhere
25 in the area of Zepa or damaged, and it could not be repaired until the
1 end of the war.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again you go beyond the question by
3 describing what was destroyed. You told us that it was through the
4 activity of sabotage groups that infiltrated from the area of Gorazde.
5 Could you tell us to what -- what sabotage groups of what army or what
6 armed forces.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These were groups of the
8 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Gorazde.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. If we can now turn to page 5 in the Serbian, page 6 in the
13 English, and focus on paragraph 13 of your statement.
14 Sir, you detail here an incident on the Kopito pass on the road
15 from Visegrad to Rogatica. How frequent were such attacks by the
16 sabotage and terrorist groups from Srebrenica and Zepa.
17 A. The activity of the sabotage/terrorist groups were very frequent
18 along this road. Let me be more specific. Every seven or ten days,
19 there were certain incidents. There would be ambushes or anti-personnel
20 or antitank explosives were planted along the road.
21 Q. Okay. Now paragraph 15 which is to be found between pages 7 and
22 8 in the English and pages 6 and 7 in the Serbian. Here you talk about
23 occasional provocations by unidentified individuals against the Muslim
24 population that stayed in these four Muslim villages.
25 Can you tell us precisely what actions were undertaken by the VRS
1 to respond to these provocations and offer protection to these villages
2 as you have referenced in this paragraph.
3 A. Since the civilian population of Muslim ethnicity complained, the
4 command of the Rogatica Brigade intervened by way of a written document
5 with the civilian organs of authority in Rogatica so that the civilian
6 police would reinforce security in those four villages to reinforce
7 patrols and constant security for the villages so that such things would
8 not happen.
9 Q. Okay. If we can now turn to page 11 in the English, page 9 in
10 the Serbian and focus on paragraph 22 of the same.
11 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for that to come up, Your Honours, I'm
12 intending to now use 1D5374 with the witness in court. This is a
13 document that was not on our original list, nor is it on our 65 ter list
14 that we submitted and filed. This was a document that the witness
15 brought to our attention that we believe helps further explain the parts
16 of this paragraph. So we'd ask leave first to add this to our 65 ter
17 list before I use it with the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: It's our understanding that this is the document
20 referred to in the proofing note and we have no objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. I'd like to look at the last paragraph of paragraph 22 when you
24 talk of an incident when UNPROFOR representatives refused to allow
25 inspection of their vehicle.
1 MR. IVETIC: And, in relation to the same, I would call up 1D5374
2 in e-court.
3 Q. So the document is dated 9th of May, 1994. Can you tell us what
4 incident is being reported in this report from the command of the
5 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade Rogatica?
6 A. This has to do with a regular check, stopping an UNPROFOR convoy
7 that was moving from Sarajevo towards Gorazde. That is in accordance
8 with regular procedure and instructions. On that day specifically, they
9 refused the envisaged check of the convoy. The consequence of their
10 refusal to have the convoy inspected was the fact that it was kept for
11 three days at the check-point in Rogatica which caused nervousness on
12 both sides. I was personally sent by General Tolimir to the scene and I
13 was convinced that it was necessary to keep the convoy there because the
14 commander of the convoy did not allow the envisaged inspection. When the
15 other side intervened as well, that is to say the UNPROFOR command, then
16 the inspection was carried out and it was concluded that the convoy did
17 not match the list that had been provided, not in terms of the number of
18 people there or in terms of the technical equipment that was there. The
19 specific document refers to all the things that were found there.
20 Just one more sentence. The behaviour of individuals from the
21 escort of the convoy was highly improper. There were even threats of
22 using fire-arms.
23 Q. And in relation to the -- if we can go back to your statement at
24 paragraph number 22 of the same, which is on page 11 in English, page 9
25 in Serbian, in relation to the events that are described in that
1 paragraph, what role does this document that we've -- that you've just
2 described have?
3 A. This report was sent through regular channels, every time an
4 UNPROFOR or UNHCR convoy passed through.
5 Q. Okay. And if we could turn to the next page in the English.
6 In the last half of paragraph 22, you say: "I have to link this
7 incident with an incident which took place only a day later."
8 Now looking at the Serbian you first start talking about an
9 incident on the 8th of May 1994 in relation to the incident that took
10 place a day later, where telephone, rifle clips and colour film were
11 found in the cargo, how does that activity relate to the document that
12 we've just looked at 1D5347?
13 A. This document served to inform the superior command as to what
14 was found on the UNPROFOR convoy en route to Gorazde. Every unit that
15 controlled such convoys had instructions telling them what could be
16 controlled and how to inspect combat means and how to inspect transport
17 means. How to state the findings and who to send a report about that.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we'd tender document 1D5347 at this
20 MR. WEBER: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Exhibit D957, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. I would now next like to turn to page 13 in the English, page 11
1 in the Serbian of your statement, and I'd like to look at paragraph 25
2 with you.
3 Here, you talk of reports sent from subordinates being doctored
4 before sending to the commander. Could you explain what you mean here.
5 A. Let me put it this way. Those reports sent by subordinated
6 commands were rather superficial, and I'm talking about both regular and
7 interim reports. The idea was to show that some activities were carried
8 out, although they hadn't been. That's why doctored reports were sent.
9 Higher-ranking commands were always in a position to assess when a report
10 presented a real situation in an area of responsibility or when it was
11 just a matter of formality or even doctored, as we said.
12 Q. And while you were at the Main Staff, what was the response at
13 the Main Staff in the event of discovering such reports were inaccurate?
14 A. The initial reaction happened in the operative centre. That's
15 where all the reports were collected and merged. Based on the
16 information and relying on experience with regard to the combat of all
17 subordinated units, one could know what was really happening and what was
18 just a fabrication. The seconds method was the immediate presence of
19 certain organs of the Main Staff in the subordinated commands and units
20 when major operations were ongoing. The commander of the Main Staff, or
21 his deputy in his absence, would react and would disallow such things.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I would have expected you to announce
23 your last question when you went over the 17 minutes.
24 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If do you so, then I don't have to do it.
1 Yes, please proceed, and wind up in the next one or two minutes.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 Q. Now, in paragraph 26, you talk of staffing being low when you
4 went to the Main Staff. Could you give us some details, for instance,
5 within your department how many officers there were besides you and what
6 the -- what was foreseen for that position as per formation?
7 A. The position of the command of the Main Staff was that the
8 command positions, i.e., the battalion, division, regiment, and brigade
9 commanders, as well as corps commanders have to be hired, whereas in
10 other commands there should be a minimum number of staff. For example,
11 in my department, in addition to myself there were two other officers and
12 one non-commissioned officer. All that time while I discharged my duties
13 in the Main Staff, I was basically on my own, and that's how things were
14 in other branches and services.
15 Q. If can I ask you to clarify. You're recorded in the transcript
16 as saying: "For example, in my department, in addition to myself, there
17 were two other officers and one non-commissioned officer."
18 Is that accurate, or, if not, could you please correct what you
19 said in relation to the same?
20 A. No. In my department, in addition to myself, there should have
21 been two more officers and a non-commissioned officer.
22 However, all the time, there was just me.
23 Q. General, I thank you for answering my questions.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
1 If Mr. Weber is ready to cross-examine the witness.
2 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber. You find
3 Mr. Weber to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
5 Q. Good afternoon, General Masal.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Today I'm going to start by briefly discussing your positions
8 during the war.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 01084 for
10 the witness.
11 Q. Coming up before you will be a 31 January 1993 VRS Main Staff
12 order from General Mladic.
13 According to this order, you were appointed as the commander of
14 Tactical Group Visegrad. It then goes on to indicate that up to this
15 point you were on duty in the IBK. This is correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. In 1992, you participated in Operation Corridor as a member of
18 the Eastern Bosnia Corps; right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. You were an artillery commander in the areas of Bijeljina and
21 Brcko during these operations; right?
22 A. Correction. The -- peacetime command or barracks were in
23 Bijeljina. The unit, however, was in engaged or, rather, deployed in the
24 Brcko, Majevica and Posavina sectors.
25 Q. Thank you for that clarification, sir. In February 1993, you
1 replaced Vinko Pandurevic as the tactical group commander. He was your
3 A. I did not replace anybody. When I joined, the command did not
4 even exist.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Before that, Vinko Pandurevic was reassigned to Zvornik. But
7 that was before I arrived.
8 Q. Directing your attention to the second individual in this order,
9 we see that the person mentioned is Colonel Svetozar Parezanin, he was
10 appointed your deputy commander and Chief of Staff of the tactical group;
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Colonel Luka Dragicevic replaced Colonel Parezanin in
14 August 1993.
15 A. Let me just add to that, that Colonel Parezanin was appointed.
16 He was 20 days late to report to duty at the command of the tactical
17 group because he had been deployed in Herzegovina. He did report,
18 however, and he remained in that position as the Chief of Staff for a
19 very short period of time, hardly a month. Therefore, before
20 Luka Dragicevic became the Chief of Staff in August 1993, I didn't have a
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask for one clarification.
23 Witness, you were asked -- I would -- I have to ask Mr. Weber.
24 In your question, line 8 on page 60, Svetozar Parezanin was appointed
25 your department commander or deputy commander.
1 MR. WEBER: I believe I said deputy commander.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. In August of 1994, that's when you were promoted to the position
5 of assistant commander for artillery in the VRS Main Staff, based on your
6 performance of the commander of TG Visegrad; right?
7 A. Correction. I was not the assistant commander for artillery. My
8 establishment position was chief of artillery at the Main Staff. The
9 commander of the Main Staff was not my immediate superior. My immediate
10 superior was the deputy chief of General Staff. I apologise. The chief
11 commander of the Main Staff.
12 Q. Okay. One, you were promoted to that position based on your
13 performance as commander of Tactical Group Visegrad?
14 A. No. I was promoted in view of my specialty. I'm an artillery
15 officer. That is my specialty.
16 Q. And just so we have a clear record, who was your immediate
17 superior in the Main Staff? If you could just give us the name.
18 A. General Manojlo Milovanovic.
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1084 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7224, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7224 is admitted.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Sir, I now just focus a little bit on the composition of
25 Tactical Group Visegrad.
1 Is it correct that there were five brigades subordinated to you
2 as the commander of TG Visegrad: The 1st through the 5th Podrinje
4 A. Yes. There were five brigades, but can you just rephrase your
5 question, put it again? Did you say 1 through 5 Podrinje Brigades?
6 Q. Let's go one by one. And, sir, please focus on my questions.
7 The 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was based in Rogatica;
9 Sir, I see you're nodding your head?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. In 1993, the commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade was Rajko
12 Kusic; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were Kusic's immediate superior between 1993 and 1994; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was based in Visegrad;
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Up until August of 1993, Luka Dragicevic was the commander of the
20 2nd Podrinje Brigade?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. The 2nd Podrinje Brigade was also commonly known as the Visegrad
23 Brigade; correct?
24 A. Yes, just like the 1st Rogatica Brigade.
25 Q. The 3rd Podrinje Brigade was based in Cajnice?
1 A. Cajnice, yes.
2 Q. Thank you for the help. That's where it was located?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The 4th Podrinje Brigade was located in Rudo?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And, lastly, the 5th Podrinje Brigade was located in the area of
8 A. It was located in Gorazde but Gorazde was in the hands of the
9 enemy. Its temporary headquarters was in Visegrad. Still, it was known
10 as the Gorazde Brigade and it was, indeed, the Gorazde brigade.
11 Q. That's understood, sir. The zones of responsibility for these
12 brigades corresponded to the municipal borders where they were located;
13 correct? Sir, you're nodding your head.
14 A. That's correct, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, sometimes the translation has not yet
16 finished when you already address the witness, where he may be nodding
17 just that he understands the question or is listening to the question.
18 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. In paragraph 10 of your statement, toward the end of the
20 paragraph, you state: "We did not create any problems concerning the
21 passage of humanitarian organisations' convoys either in the area of
22 Gorazde or in the area of Zepa."
23 General Masal, my question is: This is not an accurate statement
24 to your entire time as commander of TG Visegrad; correct?
25 A. I stand by my statement. Since I know that my commands, i.e.,
1 commissions, that inspected convoys were subordinated to me, they
2 reported to me, and they did their job with full responsibility and they,
3 indeed, did not create any unnecessary problems.
4 Q. Okay. Let's talk about that further. In paragraph 18 of your
5 statement, you state: "Convoys travelling to Zepa and Gorazde went
6 through my zone of responsibility. My superior command, the DK, issued
7 orders based on the orders of the GS, and I often received them
9 You followed these orders; correct?
10 A. Fully.
11 Q. There were orders, in fact, that banned convoys from entering the
12 eastern enclaves; right?
13 A. There were no orders to prevent them from entering. There were
14 orders for them to be kept for as long as needed, i.e., they needed to be
15 controlled and inspected pursuant to the signed agreement of the.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6961 for
17 the witness.
18 Q. This is a document from the security and intelligence department
19 of the Drina Corps in May 1993. We see that it was sent to all
20 Drina Corps units with the instruction to inform commanders -- or all
22 You were subordinate to the Drina Corps Command at this time;
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. The document very clearly states: "Pursuant to the oral order of
1 Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic, commander of the VRS Main Staff, all
2 convoys of UNPROFOR, the ICRC and other international organisations are
3 hereby banned from entering or leaving the territory of Srebrenica and
5 So, sir, I put it to you what you just told us is not true.
6 That, in fact, General Mladic issued orders to deny the passage of
7 convoys during your time as commander of Tactical Group Visegrad; right?
8 A. This is not about any one specific convoy. It was not that a
9 convoy was there at the check-point and then an order was issued to
10 prevent it from entering Zepa or Gorazde. This was a general, an
11 umbrella, an order probably based on the oral order of the commander of
12 the Main Staff. I assume that it applied to a certain time-period when
13 the relation ship between UNPROFOR and VRS were tense. This kind of
14 order --
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry to cut you off but
16 you're providing an explanation. What I'm simply asking is what you said
17 to us about there not being orders to ban convoys, that's not true. We
18 see in this order that it says, "All convoys of UNPROFOR, the ICRC, and
19 other international organisations are hereby banned."
20 So what you said is not accurate. That's the case.
21 A. The order was received, but I reassert that, at that moment,
22 there was no specific convoy at the check-point. No single convoy was
23 ever returned from the check-point.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question that was put to you was not
25 whether any concrete convoy was banned when appearing at a check-point.
1 The question was whether orders were given to ban convoys from entering
2 and leaving.
3 Mr. Weber now puts to you a document which literally says that.
4 Do you accept that your previous answer was then apparently an answer to
5 a different question, not to the question of Mr. Weber; and that this
6 order states that convoys were banned from entering or leaving Srebrenica
7 and Zepa?
8 Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud. And this is the last warning.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any problem with the audio for
11 Mr. Mladic, he can convey that to you, Mr. Stojanovic, at an inaudible
12 volume, and nothing else.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the case. But I
14 believe that it has been resolved now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, do you agree that your previous
16 answer that there were no orders to ban convoys from entering and leaving
17 was inaccurate?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that generally this order
19 does exist or, rather, information from the intelligence organs. But I
20 stand by the following. That my answer was negative in relation to the
21 concrete convoy.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that was not the question. So would you
23 please, next time, focus on what is asked and not reformulate the
24 question for yourself and then answer the question you had on your mind.
25 Carefully listen to what Mr. Weber asks you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. What's referred to in this order is not an isolated incident, and
4 your units continually denied the passage of humanitarian convoys to the
5 eastern enclaves. That's what happened.
6 A. I disagree that they continually denied the passage.
7 Q. Okay. Well, in February 1993, no convoy had been allowed to
8 deliver aid to the town of Gorazde for more than three weeks; right?
9 A. The convoys that passed through my zone -- well, the one that was
10 kept the longest was this one, the UNPROFOR convoy in Rogatica.
11 As for others, I cannot confirm now whether they were prevented
12 from entering at that point in time. I cannot confirm anything like that
13 for you now.
14 Q. Sir, you haven't --
15 MR. IVETIC: Part of the witness's answer has not been
16 translated. He mentioned a length of time for the UNPROFOR convoy in
18 I would ask that he be asked to repeat that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer in respect of
20 the time involved for the UNPROFOR convoy in Rogatica?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the longest time that a
22 convoy was kept for at a check-point.
23 As for this, three weeks in February 1993, not a single convoy
24 from the eastern enclave passed through my zone. I cannot confirm or
25 deny that because I don't know about it.
1 MR. WEBER: Let's look at document. Could the Prosecution please
2 have 65 ter 9684 for the witness.
3 Q. Sir, before you is a UNHCR update dated 12 February 1993. The
4 first paragraph indicates the UN High Commissioner for Refugees condemned
5 the Bosnian Serb policy of denying humanitarian convoys to Eastern Bosnia
6 in order to starve people out of their homes.
7 Continuing on, the second paragraph refers to a letter to
8 Radovan Karadzic that said UNHCR had been present -- had present
9 clearance to deliver aid to the enclaves where more than 100.000 people
10 are suffering hardship due to the military blockade.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S
12 for the witness.
13 Q. In the first full paragraph on the page before you - this is the
14 third paragraph from the bottom in the English - the update states:
15 "Despite daily attempts by UNHCR to reach the eastern enclaves, no convoy
16 has been allowed to deliver aid to the town of Gorazde since 19 January,
17 no food has reached Zepa since 17 January and all convoys into Srebrenica
18 have been banned since 10 December 1992."
19 General, the actual situation was that there was a Bosnian Serb
20 policy that was enforced by your units of in the area of Gorazde which
21 prevented the delivery of humanitarian convoys. That was what was going
23 A. My units did not pursue a policy of preventing the supply of
24 humanitarian aid. Specifically, the movement of all convoys of
25 international organisation, military and humanitarian, was approved at
1 the level of the republic. Down the chain of command, we received orders
2 or, rather, information as to when, at what time, along which axis
3 certain convoys were supposed to pass. So I completely rule that out,
4 that my units pursued a policy of preventing the delivery of humanitarian
5 aid to the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.
6 Q. I'm not going to debate with you. We see what the information is
7 and we've also seen that your superior commands denied the convoys.
8 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 09684 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7225.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P7225 is admitted.
12 Mr. Weber, I think we are close to the time for a break, and if
13 we wait any longer then hardly anything will remain after that break.
14 MR. WEBER: I'm going stay on the same subject but this is a fine
15 time to break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I thought for a second that you would say it
17 was a perfect time for a break. But ...
18 MR. WEBER: I amended it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You amended it.
20 Witness, we will take a break. We'd like to see you back after
21 20 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, Mr. Registrar has directed to me an
24 error when I spoke as to the document that was introduced into evidence.
25 I said at page 56 of the transcript line 14, I said 1D5347. I meant to
1 say 1D5374 which, indeed, was the document that we had viewed on the
2 screen at the time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think both were used but ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask Mr. Registrar to clearly tell us what was
6 admitted, irrespective of how it was introduced because I remember that
7 various numbers were mentioned and appear on the transcript.
8 Mr. Registrar, the number and the ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 1D5347 was the
10 document that was used by Mr. Ivetic and that will be assigned
11 Exhibit D954.
12 I had assigned it Exhibit D957 but that should now be vacated
13 because that's the wrong number. It should be Exhibit D954 assigned to
14 exhibit 65 ter number 1D5347.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's now --
16 MR. IVETIC: If I can ask Mr. Registrar to check the number again
17 that is being introduced because that's a different document. 1D5347 is
18 a different document in e-court. According to me -- hang on a second.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think you should clarify this together during the
20 break --
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. He's right now.
22 JUDGE ORIE: He's right now.
23 Therefore, we'll take that break and we'll resume at a quarter to
25 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar confirmed to me during the break that
4 everything he said and which is now on the record in relation to the
5 numbers, et cetera, is accurate and correct.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. The restriction of food and humanitarian aid to Muslim towns in
11 your area of responsibility continued through May 1993; correct?
12 A. I have to repeat once again. Not a single restriction existed in
13 the zone unless an order had been received not to allow passage. Such
14 orders would arrive from superior commands in the period when the
15 relations between the UNHCR or, rather, UNPROFOR, and the
16 Army of Republika Srpska were impaired. So, in my zone -- well, it
17 wasn't our will to prevent passage. For each and every passage, we would
18 receive notification and an order to allow convoys to pass once they had
19 been inspected.
20 Q. You're giving an explanation again. Are you saying this
21 continued to happen through May 1993? That's what you're saying; right?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you clarify what this --
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. The restriction of humanitarian aid and food continued throughout
25 May 1993; right?
1 A. Humanitarian convoys moving through the zone of my command were
2 announced by my command. For each and every convoy, I would receive an
3 order stating the composition of the command, the time when the convoy
4 would pass, that it should be inspected and let go. I didn't do anything
5 on my own. Apart from that, and no one could have done anything on their
6 own just like that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, why are you insisting on answering
8 questions that are not put to you. No one asked you whether you or on
9 your own decided to restrict humanitarian convoys.
10 The question was simply whether the restrictions in the
11 humanitarian aid and food continued throughout May 1993. That's the
12 question. Not whether you're responsible for it, not on whose orders it
13 happened. Just whether it did happen. That's the question.
14 Could you please answer that question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From time to time, there were
16 problems regarding the passage of convoys. It wasn't by way of
17 continuity. But from time to time, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Took us a while to get an answer but we have it now.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do, could we please have a look at
21 P6961 again.
22 Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. No, that's fine.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31196 for
25 the witness. Page 1 of the English original and page 2 of the B/C/S
2 Q. This is a 13 May 1993 letter from UNHCR to General Mladic and
3 Radovan Karadzic. I'd like to focus on some information in this letter
4 which begins in the middle of the page before you. The letter states:
5 "During the period from July 1992 through 10 May 1993, UNHCR Belgrade
6 delivered 12.759 metric tonnes of aid to Bosnian Serb communities in the
7 eastern region. During the same period, we were able to deliver only
8 6.325 metric tonnes to the towns of Gorazde, Srebrenica, Tuzla and Zepa.
9 The figures speak for themselves. During the month of April, taken as an
10 example, UNHCR trucks delivered aid directly to 17 different Bosnian Serb
11 towns ..."
12 The towns are then listed, and among them are Rogatica and
13 Visegrad. The letter then also lists three communities who picked up aid
14 in Belgrade.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the next page of
16 the English original.
17 Q. One of these communities was Cajnice. The fact is the movement
18 of humanitarian aid to Bosnian Serb towns and communities in your zone of
19 responsibility was permitted; right?
20 A. Obviously on the basis of this document, yes. Right now, I
21 cannot say anything to the contrary because I see this on the basis of
22 this document.
23 Q. The last sentence of the paragraph states: "During the same
24 period, we made trips to only three Muslim areas in the east, Tuzla,
25 Srebrenica and Gorazde, the last only once."
1 At the same time that you were allowing aid to Serb-populated
2 areas, the fact is you were also restricting aid to the Muslim-populated
3 areas in your zone of responsibility, such as Gorazde. That's what
4 happened; right?
5 A. I still cannot accept your assertion. You are addressing me,
6 saying that I had forbidden that. I can agree, though, and I've already
7 said that there were problems and that were there orders that certain
8 convoys be stopped and kept there for a certain period of time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Weber, if you clearly explain what you
10 mean when you're saying "you." Is that this witness or is that the
11 Bosnian Serb authorities, or ...
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. The Bosnian Serb authorities, specifically, the VRS were
14 restricting -- the military forces were restricting the delivery of aid
15 to areas like Gorazde; right? And, sir, just so you're clear I'm
16 referring to you because you were the commander of the units in this zone
17 of responsibility.
18 A. Yet again, I'm saying each and every order to allow a convoy to
19 pass started from the leadership --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you immediately. The question is not who
21 decided but whether this happened, whether convoys were stopped by you,
22 that is, your unit. Perhaps for good reasons, perhaps on orders, perhaps
23 on whatever, but we just first want to establish what factually happened.
24 So could you please, in this understanding of the question,
25 answer that question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did give an answer
2 to you in the affirmative. Yes, it happened at certain points in time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: 65 ter 31196, the Prosecution tenders that document
5 into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7226, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7226 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Contrary to your statement, there were problems created by severe
11 food shortages in places like Gorazde as a result of the VRS denial of
12 convoys; right?
13 A. Probably there were problems in Gorazde. I cannot say with
14 certainty, but I believe that there were problems with food shortages.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32234 for
16 the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could you please have a look at page 74,
18 line 24. The question, whether that reflects exactly what you said. The
19 first three, four words.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are the line references in LiveNote.
21 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: "Contrary to your statement", is that what you said?
23 Yes, there is an always a bit of difference between the lines. The last
24 question you put to the witness.
25 MR. WEBER: Yes, that I believe was my -- what I said. Based on
1 my recollection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Before you is a 4 May 1993 article from Agence France Presse,
5 entitled "Gorazde suffering acute food shortages suicides on the rise,
7 The article contains information from a representative of UNHCR
8 who said that people in Gorazde were suffering from severe food shortages
9 and many of the town's inhabitants had lost up to 30 kilograms in weight.
10 She added that an increasing number of elderly were committing suicide
11 there and that Western aid was being air-dropped over Gorazde daily,
12 characterising it as significant but it could not meet the needs of its
13 70.000 inhabitants, about 20.000 of whom were children.
14 This was the situation, these were the food shortages that were
15 facing the people of Gorazde because of the denial of convoys. That's
16 the truth; right?
17 A. I'm sure there were problems. However, I have to tell you that
18 Gorazde never had 170.000 inhabitants. It is a town with 30.000
19 inhabitants. But this is neither here nor there. I believe that there
20 were problems as a result of shortages of food in Gorazde and elsewhere,
21 including the territory under the control of my own forces, in Serbian
22 settlements, I believe that there were problems in Gorazde.
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence,
24 it is 65 ter 32234.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: There is an error in translation which the witness
2 has just brought to my attention. The figures between the B/C/S and the
3 English do not correlate.
4 MR. WEBER: I do see that also.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. WEBER: We are happy to MFI --
7 JUDGE ORIE: What's the original?
8 MR. WEBER: It's 70.000 inhabitants.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 70.000 is the original. Well, the witness expressed
10 himself clearly on what he expected to be the number of the population.
11 Witness, in one of the previous questions, apparently you have
12 read it from the screen, the 170.000 is an incorrect translation. It is
13 in the original English version, it says 70.000.
14 Would you still have the same comment or would you accept 70.000
15 inhabitants for Gorazde?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we take into account the entire
17 region of Gorazde and all the settlements in the direction of Sarajevo,
18 it would be between 50 and 70.000. I'm not sure. But I know that the
19 town itself cannot hold more than 30.000 people.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, this document should be
21 MFI'd until we have a correction translation.
22 MR. WEBER: We can do that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I would like to assign -- have a number
24 assigned to it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P7227, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P7227 is marked for identification pending the
2 upload of an accurate translation.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. I'd like to change topics now. As the tactical group commander
6 of TG Visegrad, you ordered the shelling of the market-place in Gorazde;
8 A. I don't remember that I ever ordered the shelling of the
10 Q. In fact, you ordered the shelling of the market-place on a
11 Saturday, the main market day.
12 A. I cannot remember that, and this is all I can be certain about.
13 Q. Okay. Just one more question before we go to a document.
14 You ordered the shelling because this was when the greatest
15 number of people would come to the market-place for food?
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for two questions and answers the
17 witness says he cannot remember then to again talk about something as a
18 definite and to ask for the reason for it, is misstating the evidence and
19 is confusing.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think, in view of the type of questions that it is
21 permissible with two follow-up questions to seek the refreshment of the
22 memory of the witness, but we'll not continue with that forever,
23 Mr. Weber, so you have now -- we'd like to hear an answer to the
25 Witness, does it ring a bell to you that you may have ordered the
1 shelling because of the greatest number of people being on the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't exclude that possibility,
4 but I don't see a reason why would I have done that. During war time, no
5 market-place in the war-struck area functioned properly.
6 Secondly, nobody in my command could observe the area in order to
7 detect or pin-point the area of the market so that it could be shelled.
8 We did not have a reconnaissance capacities in order to pin-point
9 the place where civilians gathered, and no market could have been a
10 gathering place for the population during the war, especially in view of
11 the fact that there were no goods to be traded and sold at such a place.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32180 for
13 the witness.
14 Q. This is a 11 February 1993 TG Visegrad order on securing more
15 favourable tactical positions through active operations. The order was
16 addressed to the 3rd Podrinje Brigade in Cajnice. This order is from
17 you; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Directing your attention to item 3, you state: "Immediately
20 commence artillery actions [sic] against the Gorazde area and at odd
21 hours, with 2 to 3 projectiles."
22 This type of timed firing would create a pattern where those
23 present in the target area would believe they were under an ongoing
24 attack; right?
25 A. Since the order was issued just to that one brigade, it is
1 obvious that that order is a request to the commander of that brigade,
2 and I believe that it was about the concentration of certain forces or
3 the grouping of BiH army which targeted the positions of the 3rd Brigade
4 in Cajnice.
5 Q. Sir, you haven't answered my question at all. I asked you the
6 phrase where you say "immediately commence artillery action against
7 Gorazde and at odd hours, with 2 to 3 projectiles," that type of timed
8 firing would create a pattern where those present in the target area
9 would believe they were under an ongoing attack; right?
10 A. It may be understood in that way. However, fire opened at
11 certain intervals, prevents concentration of enemy forces in an area.
12 There was some military targets in Gorazde as well, and it is obvious
13 that this was about the grouping of the enemy troops.
14 Q. I just want to get through the language first.
15 The next part states: "Cease action on Friday, 12 February, and
16 on Saturday, 13 February, achieve a strong concentration of fire
17 targeting the area of the market-place in Gorazde."
18 That's what you ordered. You ordered the market-place to be
19 shelled; right?
20 A. Yes, I ordered that. In my order, I exclude the possibility to
21 open fire on civilians.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the cessation of firing the
23 day before was intended to make people think that the attack was over so
24 they would come to the market the following day. That's why you ordered
25 the lull in the firing; right?
1 A. No.
2 Q. This artillery action was carried out; correct?
3 A. I did not get any feedback on that.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document. And I see the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7228, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7228 is admitted into evidence.
9 One last question before we adjourn, Witness.
10 Are you telling us that you ordered the shelling achieving a
11 strong concentration on -- of fire targeting the area of the market-place
12 in Gorazde without ever receiving feedback on whether it was done?
13 Is that your testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did not receive a report on
15 whether that was carried out.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you whether you received a report.
17 Whether you received any feedback at all.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have two --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then if Judge Fluegge has [Overlapping
21 speakers] ...
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... one final question.
23 A minute ago you said: "In my order, I exclude the possibility
24 to open fire on civilians."
25 Where in your order do you exclude the possibility to open fire
1 on civilians? Where can we find it in your order?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this order, you don't see that
3 civilians should be targeted. If fire is opened on the general sector of
4 Gorazde, where there are also military targets, it is actually possible
5 that a civilian would get hurt or harmed.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was -- on the market-place in Gorazde, was there
7 a military target?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where the military troops
9 were concentrated. They gathered there every day, and from that sector
10 reinforcements were probably sent to the positions. This is a rather
11 wide area where the units of the BiH army gathered and rallied.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I take it that your previous answer was wrong
14 when you said, "In my order, I exclude the possibility to open fire on
16 Nothing can you found in your order; correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not put it in my order
18 that care should be taken that civilians must not be harmed. There's no
19 that exclusivity in my order.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Therefore, your previous answer was wrong. Thank
22 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day. Mr. Masal, we'd like to see
23 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. But before you
24 follow the usher, I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
25 in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is
1 testimony you have given today, or whether that is testimony which is
2 still to be given tomorrow.
3 Is that clear to you?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may follow the usher.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
8 Thursday, the 19th of March, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
9 courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
12 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.