150323IT

Page 33463

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

2 WITNESS: DRAGISA MASAL [Resumed]

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

5 Q. General, we left off last week talking about the part of the

6 cross-examination focusing on convoys which were not reaching Zepa and

7 the food shortages caused thereby.

8 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up 65 ter number 25880 in

9 e-court. While we wait for the document, I can say it's an intelligence

10 report from the organ for security and intelligence of the 1st Podrinje

11 Light Infantry Brigade dated 31 December 1993, and I'd like to take a

12 look at the bottom of the page in both languages.

13 Q. And in the English it's approximately the fourth line from the

14 bottom and is in relation to Zepa and says:

15 "People live well because there's enough food. The reserves of

16 flour and other articles of food are enormous. Some people have as much

17 as 50 kilograms of flour or even more. Very large quantities of food,

18 medicines and other medical supplies are under the control of the army."

19 Sir, is this information consistent with the type of information

20 that you had about what was going on in Zepa with regard to the food and

21 medicine?

22 A. Yes, precisely. I received such reports from subordinate

23 commands.

24 Q. And what was your understanding or information about what the BiH

25 army was doing with the food and medicine that it had under its control?

Page 33464

1 A. On the basis of our information surplus food, or rather food that

2 was "preserved" by powerful people from the military or the civilian

3 area, these surpluses were transferred between enclaves, and these

4 products were resold at exorbitant prices. To put it very briefly:

5 Consumer goods were smuggled as was food, alcohol, and cigarettes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would tender this document as the

8 next Defence exhibit number.

9 MR. WEBER: No objections, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That makes Exhibit D957, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: D957 is admitted into evidence.

13 MR. IVETIC: I would next like to take a look at P7229, which was

14 used on Thursday by the Prosecution, and at transcript page 33374. And

15 once that comes up, I'd like to look at page 2 in the English and the

16 bottom of the first page in the Serbian. That again is a document from

17 the BiH Supreme Command in Sarajevo. And the -- in the -- in the B/C/S,

18 it's the very last two lines on the first page. In English, it's the

19 last paragraph before the heading: "2nd Corps Zone of Responsibility."

20 And it's talking about OG Gorazde's zone of responsibility.

21 Q. And it says as follows:

22 "Despite tough enemy attacks and threats our forces are sturdily

23 holding all defence lines and successfully repelling all the Chetnik

24 attacks."

25 What was your understanding of where the ABiH had placed their

Page 33465

1 defence lines in relation to the town of Gorazde?

2 A. If we look at the date of this information, if you mean this

3 period it is the 12th of February, 1993. At that time, the positions

4 were very close to Visegrad. The hydroelectric power plant Visegrad was

5 being fired at. The town of Visegrad was within the range of mortars of

6 smallest calibre, so in this period - in this period - the forces of the

7 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were just before Visegrad, Rogatica, and Rudo.

8 Rudo, say, about 15 kilometres away.

9 Q. And did that change in the time-period following the 12th of

10 February, 1993?

11 A. Precisely for these reasons. For these reasons: The Army of

12 Republika Srpska, or rather the Tactical Group Visegrad, planned combat

13 activities in order to repel the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14 so that they would be outside the range of Visegrad, Rogatica, and Rudo,

15 so in that operation the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

16 repelled all the way back to Ustipraca; that is to say, 12 kilometres

17 away from Gorazde.

18 Q. Okay. Now if we can move to P7231, which was used in cross at

19 transcript page 33377 and onwards. When we see that document, we'll see

20 it's dated the 14th --

21 MR. WEBER: Sorry to interrupt, but just maybe so we can move

22 first efficiently, can we just have a little context for when that was?

23 The last answer.

24 MR. IVETIC: Oh, the last answer.

25 Q. Sir, could you tell us what time-period it was where the -- the

Page 33466

1 ABiH moved to 12 kilometres away from Gorazde?

2 A. That is Operation Mac.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We know when that was.

4 MR. IVETIC: Mm-hm.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MR. IVETIC:

7 Q. Looking at this document from the -- this is again a document

8 from the BiH side. Looking at page 2 in both languages, it is at the top

9 of the page in the Serbian and in the middle of the page in English.

10 It's the first bullet point under: "Requests." And it says here:

11 "OG IB Gorazde requests that the VK staff's order" --

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. "OG IB Gorazde requests that the VK staff's order that all

15 persons liable for military service from Zenica, Jablanica, and Konjic

16 return to its zone of responsibility be respected."

17 We know that OB [sic] refers to "operative group," as is

18 identified on the first page of this document. What was your

19 understanding or information about the size or strength of this operative

20 group of the BiH army, the OG IB Gorazde?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you explain "OB." What is "OG" and

22 "IB"?

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I meant to say "OG" because that's

24 the -- well, ... on page 1, we have "IB" being "Eastern Bosnia" in the

25 English, and we have "OG" as "operations group." Those are the --

Page 33467

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. So could you tell me, sir, what was your information about the

5 strength or size of the operative group of the BiH army, OG IB Gorazde?

6 A. On the basis of the assessments made in my command, or rather the

7 reports of the intelligence organs, Operations Group Gorazde had about

8 six brigades. They had about 15.000 men, about three times more than the

9 units of the Tactical Group Visegrad.

10 Q. And what kind of locations did the Operative Group Gorazde use to

11 base its troops and equipment?

12 A. The command of the operations group was in Gorazde. The command

13 of a few brigades - I don't know exactly which ones - was also in

14 Gorazde. Then one command was in the village of Osanica; that is,

15 towards Foca. And there was one command to the north of the town of

16 Gorazde in the area of the Pobjeda factory. The units or rather the

17 defence areas or the areas of operations of brigades were towards the

18 units, or rather brigades, of Tactical Group Visegrad; that is to say,

19 towards Rudo, Cajnice, Visegrad, Rogatica, and towards Foca.

20 However, Operations Group Gorazde of the Army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina had quite a reserve, and they were in the areas in the

22 broader region of Gorazde, and they were prepared to take action along

23 certain axes.

24 Q. Could you clarify, sir, in talking about the broader region of

25 Gorazde, are you talking about the enclave of Gorazde or the town of

Page 33468

1 Gorazde?

2 A. I'm talking about the town of Gorazde. That is to say, Gorazde,

3 along with its outskirts, the suburban neighbourhoods.

4 Q. Now taking as a reference in time when Gorazde was declared a

5 safe area, how did the size and strength of the ABiH forces in Gorazde

6 town compare both before and after the declaration of Gorazde as a safe

7 area?

8 A. In principle, the strength of the units of the Army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not change drastically, if the period before the

10 safe area was declared is compared to the one after that. However,

11 Gorazde had open communication with Sarajevo, and that road was used for

12 bringing in fresh forces, for returning deserters, as we saw from those

13 documents, and for the intervention of the units of the 1st Corps of the

14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Sarajevo.

15 Q. Okay. Now in relation to the situation in Gorazde, you testified

16 at transcript page 33422 that the Operation Zvijezda 94 was intended to

17 return Serb residents to their villages in Gorazde. Can you tell us when

18 and why they had left?

19 A. In the briefest possible terms. From when the war started in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbs in Gorazde held about half of the

21 territory -- or rather, almost half of the territory was populated, and

22 the Army of Republika Srpska held a bit more than half the territory. At

23 any rate, the VRS had under its control the right bank of the Drina

24 river, then the suburban neighbourhoods to the north, towards Rogatica,

25 and partly towards Cajnice up to the Kozara pass. The rest was under the

Page 33469

1 control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Sometime toward the end of 1992, all the Serbs of Gorazde were

3 expelled from the right bank of the Drina river where they had been the

4 majority population. Then also from the neighbourhood of Obarak that is

5 on the outskirts towards Ustipraca, and it's between the village of

6 Kopaci, the current seat of the Serbian municipality of Gorazde, and

7 another municipality where there is a -- an Orthodox church and an

8 Orthodox cemetery. Then Jabuka and Jabucko Sedlo. All of these villages

9 were Serb villages that practically towards the end of 1992, as the Serbs

10 were expelled from the territory of Gorazde, were destroyed and torched.

11 And -- sorry, just one more thing. Two Serb villages with about

12 50 families remained underneath Grebak - that is to say, between Grebak

13 and Jabucko Sedlo - they were under constant blockade and they were not

14 allowed -- even when operation Zvijezda 94 was over, they were not

15 allowed to move out. I mean, those who had survived. They were not

16 allowed to move out of that area.

17 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to take a look at 1D00588. Pardon me, 558.

18 1D558.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we look at that, could I ask the witness a

20 question.

21 Witness, you said that the Operations Group Gorazde had about six

22 brigades, 15.000 men. We looked at a document in which it was said that

23 the order that persons returned from -- return to the zone of

24 responsibility of the Operations Group Gorazde coming from Zenica,

25 Jablanica, and Konjic should be respected.

Page 33470

1 Now those 15.000, are those inclusive those who were still to

2 return, or were these reserve? You said there was considerable reserve.

3 Could you explain a little bit how the 15.000 came to your mind when

4 looking at a document which says that people still have to return to the

5 zone of responsibility of the operation group?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that this is a smaller

7 group. It's not a big number of military conscripts whose families went

8 out into the area of Zenica, Konjic, and Jablanica. And afterwards they

9 were supposed to return to their units, so I do not consider that number

10 to be significant as compared to these 15.000.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But are they part of the 15.000 or are they

12 not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, according to our estimate it

14 was always around 15.000. I think that that number was included as well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And that it was a smaller number, you said, that's

16 what you assumed?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. IVETIC: We've lost the document. If we can have again 1D558

21 in e-court.

22 Q. Sir, this is a publication of the US house of representatives

23 republican research committee in the task force on terrorism and

24 conventional warfare from May 4th, 1994. It's in English, so I'll have

25 to read for you the section I want to first focus you on, which is the

Page 33471

1 last half of the first paragraph and the first five lines of the second

2 paragraph.

3 "However, while Bosnian Serb aggressiveness has undoubtedly

4 played a large part in the Gorazde tragedy, what is less known is the

5 role played by the Bosnian government and military in instigating the

6 conflict and in efforts to draw the West, particularly the United States,

7 into the war generally.

8 "The roots of this situation derive from the events of the fall

9 of 1992 at a relatively early stage of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. At

10 that time, the Gorazde area was one of the first places where Islamist

11 guerrillas, a combined force of Afghan volunteers (mainly Arab Afghans)

12 and Bosnian Islamists, had embarked on a systematic campaign against the

13 local Christian population in order to secure a predominant military

14 position."

15 Is this accurately describing, sir, the situation in the fall of

16 1992 according to your information?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

18 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, it's been read into the record now, but

19 just in terms of carrying on like this, we would object eventually here.

20 It's leading. It's presenting information to the witness instead of

21 eliciting it from him, so...

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we're talking about what to do in the

23 future. Not what you did until now. Any comments on what Mr. Weber has

24 drawn our attention to?

25 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, and we have -- the witness has

Page 33472

1 given his testimony about the end of 1992, and I am presenting a document

2 prepared by some other people to see if this is what he was talking

3 about, so ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, actually the scope of the examination I

6 believe largely related, and I'm not sure even I talked about his duties

7 during 1992 except to ask him his position, but his time in TG Visegrad

8 picked up at the beginning of 1993.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, please be very precise on the matter in the

10 future, Mr. Ivetic. Certainly the portion you read goes beyond what the

11 witness was examined on until now.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. Sir, can you answer the question, sir, or do you need my ...

15 A. My previous answer about the expulsion of the Serbs from the

16 territory of Gorazde is corroborated by this document.

17 Q. What information did the VRS have as to the efforts or desire of

18 the BiH authorities in Gorazde to obtain the military intervention of the

19 west or the United States?

20 A. I don't know anything specific about this particular period. I

21 only know that the offensives of the BiH army towards the end of 1992

22 were large scale. Within the scope of three or four days, the Serbian

23 population was expelled from the general area of Gorazde. After that,

24 when Gorazde was proclaimed a protected area, the BiH army continued

25 intense preparation to expand its territory and to have control over the

Page 33473

1 entire area of Podrinje.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the witness moved well away from your

3 question. Could you please next time stop him.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. IVETIC:

6 Q. Could I ask you to be very precise in your answer, sir, and tell

7 us about any information that you -- that you or the VRS had about the

8 BiH side's efforts to obtain military intervention on their behalf once

9 Gorazde had been declared a safe area?

10 A. This is precisely what I was going to say. Active sabotage

11 activities and then preparations for offensives and offensives on

12 particular axes, especially towards Cajnice, all that was aimed to

13 provoke the Army of Republika Srpska at all costs. As a result, the VRS

14 would be exposed to threats; i.e., the threats that it would be bombed by

15 NATO air force would come to fruition.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. IVETIC: Now, for Your Honours' reference, page 5 of this

18 document in the last half talks about precisely that attempt at provoking

19 the Republika Srpska for threats of bombings.

20 Q. Now, I want to ask you also about the reporting in the media in

21 relation to Gorazde. Did you have occasion to learn of any media

22 reporting that misrepresented the situation in Gorazde?

23 A. I would like to inform both you and the Trial Chamber that when

24 Operation Zvijezda 94 was being planned, the Chief of Staff,

25 General Milovanovic, who was the chief of the General Staff, and the

Page 33474

1 commander of the Herzegovina Corps, General Grubac, explicitly put a ban

2 on fire being opened on the Gorazde sector before fighting started in the

3 town of Gorazde itself. However, from the very outset of the operation,

4 Radio Gorazde and the other media of Bosnia-Herzegovina reported daily

5 about hundreds and thousands of dead and wounded in Gorazde, and

6 especially in those parts and institutions that should have been

7 protected from any combat activities.

8 I'm repeating: There was a ban on artillery fire on Gorazde up

9 until the beginning of fighting on the ground at the very entrance to

10 Gorazde. However, we have already seen what kind of reports were sent to

11 the world about hundreds and thousands of dead and wounded. It was all

12 propaganda. When all of that ended, one could easily see what was the

13 truth when they entered Gorazde itself.

14 Q. Okay. And now if we could turn to page 10 of this document.

15 It's the last paragraph on page 10 and goes on to page 11.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is it your understanding that "we have

17 already seen" includes the Chamber? Now, the witness says: "However, we

18 have already seen what kind of reports were sent to the world," and of

19 course in order to fully understand and appreciate that, I wondered

20 whether --

21 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I think we had approximately

22 three newspaper articles that were presented by the Prosecution in

23 cross-examination. I'm not sure if that's what the witness is referring

24 to.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether that's what the witness

Page 33475

1 referred to.

2 What did you refer to exactly, Witness, when you said: "... we

3 have already what kind of seen reports were sent to the world about

4 hundreds and thousands of dead and wounded," and that it was all

5 propaganda? Could you tell us?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is about what the

7 Prosecutor showed us, a report from Los Angeles Post, a report heard on

8 Radio Gorazde, and the report by monitors who compiled their reports

9 based on that information.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The monitors are part of the media in your

11 assessment?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm convinced because at the time

13 the monitors did not move anywhere from Gorazde. They relied on the BiH

14 army and the command of the OG and Radio Gorazde for their information.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not exactly an answer to my question, but

16 I do understand the context you are giving us.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, I will read this section to you and ask for your comments

20 based upon your knowledge of what was going on at the time about what is

21 being reported here.

22 "That said, it was now possible to objectively assess the actual

23 situation in Gorazde. It soon became clear that the Bosnian Muslims had

24 overstated the plight of the city. The casualty levels were far below

25 initial reports, with UNHCR, the most responsible among those reporting

Page 33476

1 sources, having initially alleged that there were 715 killed and 1970

2 wounded, over 600 of them serious and requiring evacuations by air. Most

3 of these casualties, the UNHCR had stressed, were innocent civilians.

4 However, post-action inspection revealed that there were some 200

5 fatalities and some 200 seriously wounded, 70 per cent of them Muslim

6 soldiers."

7 And let's for the moment stop there, and I'll ask for your

8 comment as to what is written here, sir.

9 A. This tallies with what I have said and it also confirms what I

10 said, and that was that from the beginning of Operation Zvijezda 94,

11 there was a ban on opening artillery fire on the general sector of

12 Gorazde. Therefore, after an inspection, it was established that most of

13 the casualties came from the ranks of the BiH army and that they were

14 killed on the front line as they were fighting the VRS.

15 Q. You mentioned radio reports. I'd like to read the next sentence

16 in this report:

17 "The extent of the damage to the hospital and other buildings,

18 not to speak of Gorazde overall, was far below what had been anticipated

19 on the basis of radio reports. Indeed, on 28 April, General Rose went on

20 an inspection tour of the Gorazde enclave. He returned full of criticism

21 of the Bosnian Muslims, adding that they had exaggerated the number of

22 wounded and the damage done to the town in the Bosnian Serb offensive in

23 order to instigate NATO's military intervention."

24 The -- I'd ask for your comment on this part of the report,

25 especially as to damage to structures.

Page 33477

1 A. This report by General Rose completely refutes what was portrayed

2 through propaganda. I personally met with General Rose in my command in

3 Kopaci when he paid us a visit. For about half an hour, we analysed the

4 treatment of UNPROFOR in Gorazde, a cease-fire, and General Rose

5 presented several facts which confirmed that the attitude of the VRS

6 towards UNPROFOR and its activities were positive. He did not proffer

7 any comments on the number of casualties. I suppose that he wanted to

8 keep that to himself.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is there any documentary source for

10 General Rose's observations which is either in evidence or could be

11 produced as evidence?

12 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, we have this report, and then we

13 have a report from Mr. Yasushi Akashi commenting on this report and

14 saying that it's generally report. I don't know if that's what --

15 JUDGE ORIE: On this report?

16 MR. IVETIC: On this report, correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But it heavily relies on post-action inspection and

18 what General Rose said, and I would expect under those circumstances that

19 there must be a report by General Rose or that it ...

20 Is there any --

21 MR. IVETIC: I do know that there is also an interview from

22 French TV 1, which is cited in paragraph 5 that I mentioned earlier, but

23 I have not been able to go through all the documents that have been

24 disclosed to us to find out if we have a report from General Rose. Like

25 I said, I do have a report from Mr. Yasushi Akashi to Kofi Annan talking

Page 33478

1 about this report, the one that we've been looking at now from the

2 research committee --

3 JUDGE ORIE: And is that in evidence?

4 MR. IVETIC: That's the next document I was going to discuss with

5 the witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

7 Mr. Weber, if you would aware of any Rose report which could shed

8 further light on it, we would have then even the more direct evidence on

9 what is claimed here as the position of General Rose.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Now if we could look at -- pardon me.

13 Do you have any additional information to provide as to the

14 hospital in Gorazde and reports of damage to the hospital?

15 A. I personally don't have any information. I learnt about all that

16 during the Prosecutor's examination. Apart from that, I didn't know

17 anything else.

18 Q. Okay. Then I will move on to 1D2939, which is the 12 July 1994

19 report of Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And could I meanwhile ask, Witness, where this

21 report says, "However, post-action inspection...," and then a few lines

22 down: "General Rose went on an inspection tour of the Gorazde enclave,"

23 did you mean with post-action inspection that inspection tour by

24 General Rose or was there any post-action inspection performed?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that General Rose was there.

Page 33479

1 I don't know who else was with him.

2 After the end of the operation, I'm sure that you know that, one

3 UNPROFOR battalion, an English battalion and a Ukrainian battalion,

4 entered Gorazde and took positions on the left and the right banks, the

5 English and the Ukrainian, battalions respectively.

6 After that, UNPROFOR convoys arrived, as well as UN observers,

7 and I suppose that they carried out inspections and sent reports. I had

8 announcements of their arrivals, but I didn't know what their mission

9 was. I didn't have that information.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, in this document from Akashi to Annan, in the first

13 paragraph, it says:

14 "As requested at your fax of 25 June 1994, we have reviewed the

15 US house republican research committee report of 4 May 1994 on Gorazde.

16 We find the paper lacks objectivity."

17 Then if we go to the third paragraph, it says:

18 "Our records indicate that operations around Gorazde after

19 20 March 1994 generally unfolded as outlined in the report. However, we

20 do not agree with the congressional report's overall assessment and

21 interpretation of the crisis as a one-sided attempt by the Bosnians to

22 provoke the Serbs and to draw the outside world into the conflict. As

23 outlined in the report of SG pursuant to SCR 844 --"

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down, Mr. Ivetic, while reading.

25 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

Page 33480

1 Q. "... SCR 844, 1993, the Bosnians did conduct some military

2 activities from within the pocket. They also expressed to the SR SG and

3 commander BH command their expectation of much greater use of NATO air

4 support once the town was attacked. However, Serb behaviour during and

5 after the offensive makes it clear that retention of the areas captured,

6 including the right bank opposite the town of Gorazde, is one of their

7 objectives."

8 So we're talking about the report we just looked at, and I'd like

9 to look at the specific complaints of Mr. Akashi of either incorrect or

10 different information that is on page 2, and I'd like to get your comment

11 about the factual scenario, whether it's supports what is being written

12 here.

13 And if we could look at page 2 and the second paragraph,

14 Mr. Akashi writes:

15 "Allegations that UNHCR convoys moved military materials into

16 Gorazde are totally unfounded and are reminiscent of far-fetched Serb

17 propaganda. The Serbs have always been particularly zealous in their

18 searching of UNHCR convoys bounds for Gorazde and have on repeated

19 occasions removed items such as shoes or sleeping bags on the ground they

20 constitute military material."

21 What factual information can you provide for us, sir, on this

22 topic, the movement the military materials into Gorazde?

23 A. A large majority of the UNHCR convoys were okay; i.e., the

24 contents of the convoys were in keeping with the declaration. However, I

25 can say for a fact that in certain vehicles of certain convoys the

Page 33481

1 originally pre-packed packages of food were replaced by certain

2 quantities of ammunition. It was not a -- done on a large-scale, but on

3 several occasions ammunition was found. After that, there was a detailed

4 inspection of every convoy. Convoys which did not contain such packages

5 would be inspected very quickly and allowed to go on. Wherever there was

6 a doubt that there was something suspicious in the convoy, there was a

7 quick check and then a detailed inspection of the convoy. There were not

8 many such cases. I claim that with full responsibility.

9 Q. And if I can then direct your attention to the next paragraph,

10 which I will have to read for you to get a translation, quote:

11 "For those periods when our observers were able to patrol, we are

12 certain that the hospital was not used for military purposes. There was

13 at least one artillery piece near the Red Cross building, but this did

14 not represent a particular concentration of BiH weaponry within the small

15 area of Gorazde that remained under Bosnian control in the final stages

16 of the battle. UNMO [sic] also confirmed that no BiH used their

17 building. At least two mortars were beside the building, and their

18 vehicles were stolen for use by the BiH."

19 Do you have any information as to the use of the hospital, the

20 grouping of artillery near the Red Cross building, or the use of the

21 region -- the area by the UNMO base by the BiH?

22 A. During the initial stages of the operation, we did not have that

23 conformation. However, as the operation was drawing to an end, the town

24 could be fully observed by our forces from our positions on the

25 elevations around the town. We had full visual control of the entire

Page 33482

1 town, and we could observe every activity and every action in every part

2 of the town. So it is completely correct that in the vicinity of certain

3 institutions and facilities, there were artillery positions or deployment

4 sectors of certain logistics elements. I personally was not familiar

5 with the town of Gorazde. However, a lot of the officers from the

6 Gorazde Brigade and a lot of the troops were very familiar with the town,

7 and they knew very well in which part of the town the fire -- fire was

8 opened by the BiH army.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document as well

10 as 1D00558, the republican research committee report that is being

11 commented upon in this Akashi fax.

12 MR. WEBER: No objection to either document pending a completion

13 of the translation. But just so we have it on the record, the

14 Prosecution would note for the record that the last paragraph of the

15 document before us, 1D2939, appears to refer to P7243.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D558 will be MFI D958,

18 Your Honours. And 65 ter 1D2939 will be MFI D959.

19 JUDGE ORIE: D958 and D959 are marked for identification.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And we would additionally from the bar

21 table seek to admit 65 ter number 18766, dated 13 April 1994, from

22 Mr. Akashi, and it's a discussion as to ABiH provocations and military

23 actions, so the Chamber can have the full breadth of the factual scenario

24 from that time-period before it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

Page 33483

1 MR. WEBER: If I could just take a quick look at that over the

2 recess and any related material and then I could come back right after

3 the recess with my answer.

4 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, I tried to avoid the word "bar

6 table" recently because what we are talking about is documentary evidence

7 which relates to portions of the testimony of a witness but which are not

8 introduced through that witness. That's the kind of construction you

9 are -- you want to be applied, isn't it?

10 MR. IVETIC: Precisely, Your Honour. You've been much more

11 explicit than I was.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No -- then we'll hear from Mr. Weber after the

13 break.

14 But could we already reserve a number for it, Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI D960, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved. We'll hear from Mr. Weber

17 after the break.

18 Are you -- apart from that, are you done, Mr. Ivetic?

19 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. I have more to go through.

20 Approximately 35 minutes. But these documents sometimes take some time

21 since we have to read them to the witness, but I hope to go faster after

22 the break.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take the break first, and we'll

24 resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

25 You may follow the usher, Mr. Masal.

Page 33484

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber you would come back to us after the break

6 and that's now.

7 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. With respect to

8 65 ter 18766, the Prosecution has no objection with that being admitted

9 from the bar table. We did have an opportunity to speak to the Defence

10 about related materials. At this time, the Prosecution would also tender

11 65 ter 09614. We would be tendering that as a P exhibit, and we would

12 note for the record that there is also related information in admitted

13 Exhibit P586.

14 So provided the additional Prosecution exhibit is admitted, we no

15 objection to the other document.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think if you avoid the word "bar table,"

17 then have better chances of success with Mr. Ivetic not objecting.

18 But, Mr. Ivetic, could you already express yourself on the

19 document now tendered by the Prosecution.

20 MR. IVETIC: I can, Your Honours. As Mr. Weber has said, we have

21 talked about this and we are on agreement on this.

22 [The witness takes the stand]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then 65 ter 18766 had received -- a number was

24 reserved already, that's D960, is hereby admitted.

25 And 65 ter 09614 receives what P number, Mr. Registrar?

Page 33485

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7249, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P7249 is admitted into ...

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I almost said evidence.

5 Mr. Weber, there seems to be no B/C/S translation for it. Is

6 that correct?

7 MR. WEBER: I see we do have one. I don't know if it's been

8 released. We will release it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Since there were no objections, may I take it that

10 the B/C/S -- the release -- if it is not released within the next hour,

11 Mr. Ivetic, you have 24 hours to --

12 MR. IVETIC: Understood.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then now I complete my sentence: P7249 is admitted

14 into evidence.

15 MR. WEBER: I have been informed that it's been released, the

16 translation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. General, I'd like to move to some VRS documents. If we could

20 turn to 65 ter number 00138. While we wait for that, you'll see it's

21 dated 16 April 1994 and is from General Ratko Mladic.

22 Now, sir, looking at the recipients of this document, are you one

23 of them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And now looking at the text beginning at item number 1:

Page 33486

1 "I most strictly forbid inhumane treatment, ill-treatment, and

2 physical liquidation of the civilian population, prisoners of war, and

3 members of international organisations."

4 "2, All commands and members of the VRS are duty-bound to isolate

5 and protect the civilian population of Gorazde by way of moving them to

6 suitable locations," and onward.

7 Is this stance of General Mladic as to how the VRS was to act in

8 Goradze, how did it compare with your knowledge of his overall stance of

9 how the VRS was supposed to act in regards to other battle zones?

10 A. I've already said that during this operation, although propaganda

11 said this, we did not have an opportunity to come across destroyed

12 villages and massive liquidations of civilians. We did not have an

13 opportunity to come across villages where there were civilians left, so

14 we realised that civilians had left the settlements before the members of

15 the military did.

16 As for the other areas of responsibility, again, I can say --

17 well, not with certainty, because I wasn't there myself, but I do know

18 that the general position was that the civilian population should not be

19 exposed to combat operations to the highest degree possible, should not

20 be imperiled in any way.

21 I'll give one example, if allow me. In the previous operation,

22 the entire population of the villages of Kosanica and Medjedja that were

23 blocked because the road near Ustipraca was cut off, agreement was

24 reached through radio communication between the commander of one combat

25 group that was within my units and the commander of the opposite side -

Page 33487

1 this was a gentlemanly thing do, it was a militarily responsible thing to

2 do - to allow everyone safe passage to Gorazde and that has already been

3 shown before this Court.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we decide on that, Witness, the stamp

8 at the bottom, do you know what kind of a stamp, what -- what does it

9 indicate?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The square stamp?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it's not a classical stamp.

13 This square stamp is the stamp of the command that received this

14 telegram. We say that that is in the office where all documents that

15 arrive are registered. Whatever is received as a telegram or through

16 teleprinters or ...

17 I mean, I cannot read this out very well. It says: Command of

18 the 1st, maybe Podrinje, Light Brigade. And so on and so forth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But is this a stamp which confirms receipt of the

20 document by the owner of the stamp?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any explanation as why the stamp says

23 31st of December, 1995, where the document apparently dates from the 16th

24 of April, 1994?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't. Maybe

Page 33488

1 there was no stamp in the first place and then when it was being archived

2 it was stamped subsequently, but I really have no real explanation as to

3 why this is the case.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, we can all assume many things about it.

5 Mr. Ivetic, do you have any -- any further comment on, I would

6 say, on my question?

7 MR. IVETIC: No, I don't. It's a Prosecution document. That's

8 how we received it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Weber, do you have any explanation as to

10 where it comes from and is there any explanation for this date?

11 MR. WEBER: In terms of the date, no. The document reflects what

12 we know about the information. In terms of the -- where it comes from,

13 I'm just ...

14 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course, everyone can assume or imagine that

15 it's the date of filing or whatever. But that's the reason why I asked

16 the witness what kind of a stamp this is.

17 Now, the text of the stamp apparently doesn't say anything about

18 received, et cetera, but I leave it to that for the time being.

19 You have no objections, Mr. Weber?

20 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour. You asked the questions about what

21 I was curious about. And with respect to just further information, it

22 does from the Drina Corps collection, so this could be from archived

23 material.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D961, Your Honours.

Page 33489

1 JUDGE ORIE: D961 is admitted into evidence.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. IVETIC: I wish to now look at 65 ter number 00132.

4 Q. While we wait for that, General, you'll see it's dated 22 April,

5 1994, and also from General Mladic.

6 Looking at the recipients of this -- well, first of all, looking

7 at this order, is this an order that was received by you in relation to

8 Gorazde?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it says here:

11 "As there is still sporadic artillery-mortar fire being sent into

12 the city of Gorazde despite the issued order, in order to consistently

13 comply with the order of the president of the RS, I hereby order: ... I

14 most strictly forbid artillery, mortar and PA fire being sent into the

15 part of the city of Gorazde on the left bank of the Drina river."

16 Now, do you recall if during this time-period there was an issue

17 with some units still shooting into the town? What was going on that

18 would cause them to still shoot into the town of Gorazde?

19 MR. WEBER: Objection. Compound question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please split it up.

21 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.

22 Q. Do you recall, sir, if there was an issue with some units still

23 shooting into the town during the time-period of this order?

24 A. Yes, there was individual firing in the area of Gorazde. There

25 was this looming danger; namely, if this were to continue, that the

Page 33490

1 positions of the Army of Republika Srpska would be bombed by NATO and the

2 already agreed upon cease-fires could be done away with, and that is why

3 this order was sent to us.

4 Q. And was there anything going on that would explain or cause

5 why -- explain why this [indiscernible] units were firing into the town?

6 A. There were provocations from the other side. There was mortar

7 fire and also there was fire in immediate combat contact.

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we would tender this document.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D962, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D962 is admitted.

12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

13 Q. Sir --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we put the 65 ter number on the record

15 again because it was not recorded.

16 MR. IVETIC: 65 ter number should be number 00132.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

18 MR. IVETIC: If we could now turn to 65 ter number 09749.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask -- was there no problem in relation to

20 the right bank of the Drina river in Gorazde? It limits itself to the

21 left bank, this order? Was there any relevant difference between the

22 left bank and the right bank?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously there were these

24 provocations on the left bank.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any difference in population between

Page 33491

1 the right bank and the left bank?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no difference in the

3 population. The Serb population hadn't returned yet.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But was the Serb population which had left, had they

5 been living mainly on the left bank or mainly on the right bank or

6 equally divided over the two banks?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In town, they were mostly on the

8 right bank, but in the suburban neighbourhoods on the left bank.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up 9749.

12 Q. Sir, this is dated 7 September 1993, and is typed-signed

13 Dragisa Masal. First of all, sir, looking at this document, is this an

14 authentic order of yours?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And we see here also you order to cease all artillery attacks on

17 the town of Gorazde, and you say:

18 "In case of enemy attack, a counterattack is to be launched with

19 the approval of the superior command but only against spotted targeted in

20 contact and against firing positions behind the enemy artillery."

21 Is this consistent with the orders that you received from the

22 superior command or is this of your own initiative? Could you tell us

23 how this came about?

24 A. Well, orders arrived from the superior command as well. However,

25 I issued this order because a few times from the command of the

Page 33492

1 Drina Corps, orders were received not to do anything unnecessary or

2 irresponsible that would disrupt the already fragile cease-fire agreement

3 that had been reached. This is solely for the purpose of keeping the

4 cease-fire, maintaining it, and also ensuring conditions for lasting

5 peace in the territory concerned.

6 MR. IVETIC: If we could tender this document Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 MR. WEBER: No objection.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D963, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

11 MR. IVETIC: If we now turn to P731.

12 Q. This was a document that was shown to you during the

13 cross-examination at transcript page 33429. While we wait for that, it

14 is from the TG Visegrad signed by you and dated the 11th of April, 1994.

15 And you were asked about item number 7 on this document, and you

16 were asked if you indeed conveyed the message from General Mladic. Now I

17 want to ask you a different question. As a professional army officer,

18 how did you understand General Mladic's message here; for instance, who

19 are the Turks he is talking about?

20 A. Just one sentence before this answer. I have already said that

21 in 1992 the entire Serb population had been expelled from the area of

22 Gorazde. Here, specifically, I conveyed the message of General Mladic as

23 I understood it and as we understood it, generally.

24 Turks were the soldiers of the opposite side, not with the

25 intention of portraying them as Turks, really. I mean, they called us

Page 33493

1 aggressors, they called us Chetniks, we called them Turks or something

2 along those lines, and it exclusively pertained to soldiers of the other

3 side. At least that is how I understood it and how I interpreted it to

4 my subordinates, officers and soldiers.

5 As for this area, my understanding was the area where I was; that

6 is to say, the area of Gorazde, or rather the area that was supposed to

7 be liberated so that the Serb population could come back.

8 Q. And now General Mladic is reported as saying: "Pay no attention

9 to what is going on around us." What was going on around you at the

10 time?

11 A. NATO air strikes and the threat of a full escalation of bombing

12 in Serb-held areas.

13 Q. Okay. Now you were asked about -- I'd like to move from Gorazde

14 and move to a different topic.

15 You were asked quite a few questions about Strpci. I want to

16 look at P7235, which you were shown. This is a letter from the collegium

17 of the railway line that was discussed with you at transcript page 33399.

18 And at that time, you said that none of the authorities mentioned in the

19 letter - that is to say, the MUP of Serbia, the assistant defence

20 minister of Serbia, or the state security police of Serbia - ever

21 informed you about the contents of this letter.

22 MR. IVETIC: And I see we're still waiting for it to come up.

23 Q. Can you please tell us, sir, when was the first time that you saw

24 this document or heard that someone claimed that the Serbian army was

25 planning an abduction of civilians from a train?

Page 33494

1 A. I first saw this document here.

2 Q. And did you ever receive or know of any orders from within the

3 VRS planning for such an abduction of Muslim civilians from a train?

4 A. I have already answered in part when giving answers to the

5 Prosecutor. As for this event, the Army of Republika Srpska not at a

6 single point in time thought about it or planned it. As for this event,

7 I was informed about it when it actually happened. Since this had to do

8 with a kidnapping of civilians, the military organisation did not take

9 measures because it was the civilian structures that were supposed to

10 investigate and continue proceedings. My command, the military

11 structure, did not deal with this.

12 Finally just one detail. The command of the tactical group is a

13 temporary command and its sole task is to organise and carry out combat

14 operations in a particular zone and in a certain period of time.

15 As for civilian affairs and the obligations of the civilian

16 authorities, the command could not have dealt with that.

17 Q. Okay. Now if we could turn to P7237, which was also shown to you

18 in connection with this set of facts. Now, sir, I know that the B/C/S is

19 hard to read. Hopefully you can focus on that.

20 Now, this was -- this presents as a -- or purports to be from the

21 Drina Corps command and from the OB department, intelligence and security

22 of the same. I want you to focus at the person that is alleged to be

23 signing this document, and I want to ask you: Are you familiar with

24 Jovo Maric?

25 A. Jovo Maric was a general, the chief of the air force and aircraft

Page 33495

1 defences in the Main Staff. Who this is, I have no idea whatsoever.

2 Q. What happened to the Jovo Maric that you know, that you've just

3 described as a general and chief of the air force and aircraft defences

4 in the Main Staff?

5 A. Chief of the air force and air defence, General Jovo Maric, he

6 was a pilot, and towards the very end of the war, or rather at the end of

7 the war, unfortunately, he lost his life in a traffic accident.

8 Q. To your knowledge, was General Jovo Maric ever fulfilling duties

9 within the Drina Corps?

10 A. No. No, he was not carrying out duties there. That I know. All

11 the time he was on the Main Staff. He was chief of the air force.

12 Q. And do you know when he attained the rank of general?

13 A. I don't know. I know that when I came to the Main Staff in 1994

14 Jovo Maric was a general.

15 Q. Have you ever heard of a Colonel Jovo Maric working in the

16 intelligence and security department of the Drina Corps during the

17 time-period when you were subordinated to the Drina Corps?

18 A. No. I knew Vujadin Popovic who was head of the security

19 department.

20 Q. Now I want to turn some matters that are contained in the

21 document itself. First of all, it says here that a military vehicle of

22 the 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was "forcibly seized" in

23 Visegrad, which was driven by Uros Pljevacevic.

24 Sir, did you order anyone to forcibly seize a military vehicle

25 from your own subordinated brigade?

Page 33496

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, Dragan Sekaric is listed here as one of those who seized the

3 vehicle. Have you ever heard of Dragan Sekaric; that is to say, was he

4 ever a member of the VRS units subordinated to you?

5 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. Obviously he was a foot soldier,

6 and I really didn't know the names of the soldiers in subordinated units.

7 Q. Now, Boban Indjic is listed here, and you did say that he was a

8 member of the Intervention Platoon within the Visegrad Brigade. Did he

9 ever receive orders either from you or from the VRS Main Staff to

10 forcibly take a military vehicle to be used in the abduction of civilians

11 from a train at Strpci?

12 A. Let me correct you. Boban Indjic was the commander of the

13 intervention company, not just one platoon in the intervention company.

14 He did not receive any combat orders from me. He could only receive

15 combat orders from his brigade commander. I don't know. I'm not aware

16 of any of his superiors ever having issued such an order to him.

17 Q. Okay. I would next like to look at 65 ter number 32206. And I'd

18 ask you to take look at the Serbian version very carefully and let me

19 know if, in fact, this is an authentic document authored by you.

20 A. This is a telegram. Clearly the signature is mine -- or rather,

21 in the heading, we can read Visegrad TG.

22 Q. I'd ask you to carefully look at the beginning of the document

23 and see whether you recall that this is something that you authored or

24 not.

25 A. Obviously the brigade commander worked in his area and what he

Page 33497

1 did was based on what he thought he should do.

2 Q. Okay. And do you recognise this document as one authored by you;

3 that is to say, is this an authentic document?

4 A. I have already told you that in my oral report, I submitted the

5 same contents as found in this report to General Zivanovic. So it's

6 about the same thing. I don't know whether the same message was also

7 conveyed in a written form, perhaps through the communications centre. I

8 don't know.

9 I am only aware of the fact I remember that I sought assistance

10 because I did not have a security organ in my unit. I sought assistance

11 from the military police to curb certain negative phenomenon in the zone

12 of responsibility of the brigade; i.e., tactical group.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could tender this as the next

14 Defence exhibit.

15 MR. WEBER: No objection.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D964, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.

19 MR. IVETIC:

20 Q. Now, at transcript page 33416, in response to a question from

21 Judge Fluegge, you indicated that Milan Lukic, who was mentioned in one

22 of the last documents or the prior -- the one prior to this one, was not

23 within your units of and was not subordinated to you in any other way.

24 Could you please elaborate for us on how it was that this

25 individual was not subordinated to you.

Page 33498

1 A. If you mean he -- that he was not subordinated to the brigade, he

2 was not -- it was not possible for him to be subordinated to the tactical

3 group. Only officers and non-commissioned officers could be subordinated

4 to the tactical group. A small number of them. In the area of the 2nd

5 Brigade around Visegrad as well as in the territories of some other unit,

6 not only the 2nd Brigade, there were members who were not members of the

7 brigade. They were not military conscripts. In other words, they acted

8 of their own will. They had their own goals, ambitions, and objectives.

9 To cut a long story short, there was a fear --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just in the future, if we could have

12 actually what was asked, because I do not see Judge Fluegge actually

13 asking that question.

14 MR. IVETIC: At 33416?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look. Against my habit.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At least no question in relation to Milan Lukic.

17 That was a question by the Presiding Judge.

18 MR. IVETIC: Oh. I apologise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether that makes the question any

20 less important, but leave to that.

21 Let me just have a look whether the question is the same because

22 it may not be that relevant.

23 Yes, I think the question, irrespective of who did put the

24 question ...

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 33499

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

2 Q. Now, if we could move onto P7236, this was again showed to you at

3 transcript page 33400, and your answer at that time -- let's wait for the

4 document.

5 This is in relation to the information from your subordinate

6 units about Sandzak Muslims, and your answer at that time was:

7 "I did order but I did not order them to capture civilians but

8 rather Muslims who often travelled from Sandzak through my zone of

9 responsibility in the direction of Gorazde and Sarajevo. This has

10 nothing to do with civilians."

11 Could you please explain for us what these Muslims from Sandzak

12 were doing as they travelled through your zone of responsibility in the

13 direction of Gorazde and Sarajevo?

14 A. Their transfer from Serbia or rather Sandzak or rather the area

15 of Raska -- and they were all militarily able-bodied Muslims, they were

16 travelling towards Gorazde. The objective was for them to be engaged in

17 combat. They were to be arrested so that they didn't reach Gorazde, and

18 that was also to prevent possible sabotage activities in the rear. We

19 were abreast of the intelligence about a possible destruction of the

20 so-called blue bridge between Visegrad and Dobrun. Across Dobrun in the

21 direction of Prijepolje, there were roads that they usually took. They

22 skirted settled areas and they had very good reconnaissance of our units'

23 positions. This is no news what I've just told you, and that is that

24 Bosniaks from Sandzak were on the side of Bosniaks in Gorazde and

25 elsewhere. I can also tell that you the former commander of the BiH army

Page 33500

1 also hails from Sandzak, so this is no big secret at all.

2 Q. Okay. Now I want to move to my second-to-last topic --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --

4 MR. IVETIC: Oh, go ahead.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- one further question.

6 Do I understand from your answer that those who travelled there,

7 coming from Sandzak, were militarily able-body Muslims and that they

8 wanted to become members of the armed forces at the end of their journey.

9 Is that how I have to understand it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, just -- they were still civilians if

12 they are not yet members of the armed forces and if they are just

13 able-bodied men.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those travelling from Sandzak

15 towards Gorazde. However, we had information and we had an order to take

16 prisoners among those who had already joined the BiH army on the front

17 line. And that order covered also the capture of unit members on the

18 front line.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's all fine. But those who were

20 travelling, you said it had nothing to do with civilians. But they were

21 not members of the armed forces. They may have wanted to become members

22 of the armed forces; but they were not yet, if I well understood your

23 testimony, and I sought verification of your initial answer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not travel individually.

25 First, they gathered in collection centres. They were equipped in a

Page 33501

1 certain sense there.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Equipped with what?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military equipment and weapons.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, but earlier you said these were able-bodied

5 men travelling there --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- wishing, perhaps, to become members of the armed

8 forces but not yet being. Now, if I receive a weapon and if I get

9 military equipment, then I'm not an able-bodied man anymore but -- well,

10 doesn't change, of course, the physical condition. But then you are --

11 have become a soldier. Whereas in your previous answer, there was a

12 strong suggestion that they were not soldiers.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had received equipment and

14 weapons already in Sandzak. They didn't travel to Sandzak with their

15 hands empty.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And those in the trains, they were travelling there

17 with weapons and ...

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were civilians.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I seek clarification for one of the last

21 answers of the witness.

22 Sir, you said: "They had received equipment and weapons already

23 in Sandzak."

24 And then the next sentence reads: "They didn't travel to Sandzak

25 with their hands empty."

Page 33502

1 Were they already equipped and did they have their weapons when

2 they went to Sandzak?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mistake. Not to Sandzak. To

4 Gorazde. They didn't travel to Gorazde with their hands empty.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.

6 MR. IVETIC:

7 Q. Now, I want to return to the four ethnic Muslim villages in your

8 zone of responsibility. You were shown only one part of your prior

9 Popovic testimony by Mr. Weber at transcript page 33394 and onwards. I

10 would like to show you another part.

11 MR. IVETIC: If we could 65 ter number 32312 in e-court. And

12 we'll need page 44 of the same. And that should correlate to transcript

13 page 29155 of the Popovic proceedings. And if we could zoom in on lines

14 1 through 10.

15 Q. I will have to read this for you so you can get a translation,

16 sir.

17 "Q. Were you aware, sir, that in the fall of 1994, Muslims were

18 moved out of Satorovici and Serb civilians were moved in? Were you aware

19 of that?

20 "A. Yes. I know [sic] that they had been moved out, that they

21 want to the move out, and that they moved out in an organised manner. I

22 don't know when that was. It may have been at the time when I had

23 already left for the General Staff -- rather, the Main Staff. I also

24 know that when they expressed their wish to move out, this met with some

25 resistance. In Sarajevo, they did not want to take them, there were

Page 33503

1 certain problems, some delays and procrastination when it came to their

2 transfer."

3 Sir, do you stand by what is written here as being both accurate

4 and truthful as related to your testimony in the Popovic case?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And now I want to ask you: Does this refresh your recollection

7 or can you tell us now when you talked about people perhaps leaving in

8 1994, was that in relation to all four villages or was it perhaps in

9 relation to just one of the four villages, Satorovici?

10 A. Precisely. I have already told you that some of them had moved

11 out in 1994 based on what I knew, and you will find that in my statement.

12 The rest of the population moved out towards the end of 1995, after the

13 Dayton Accords. The fact is that some moved out in 1994, whereas the

14 rest of the population moved out from the other villages towards the end

15 of 1995.

16 Q. Okay. Now, I want to move to my final topic, modified air bombs.

17 You gave some information during cross-examination about the

18 testing of the modified air bombs. I want to first ask you: What is the

19 source of your information as to the development and testing of modified

20 air bombs? How did you come to that information?

21 A. I heard about the development and testing of modified air bombs

22 in the territory of Republika Srpska from my predecessors, Colonel Rajko

23 Balac, and an engineer -- or rather, engineers from Pretis holding who

24 were involved in the modification and development of those air bombs.

25 Based on their explanations, I know - not directly that they had

Page 33504

1 co-operated with certain experts in the Army of Yugoslavia.

2 In addition to that, I've already mentioned that when I

3 personally got acquainted with all that and when I prepared crews to man

4 those tools, I saw the original firing tables that could only be compiled

5 after a certain piece of equipment is tested and measured for ballistics,

6 metrologic weight, and other parameters that are encompassed by the

7 testing of every artillery system.

8 MR. IVETIC: If can we call up P7245. This is a document that

9 you were shown during cross-examination.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Ivetic, you're not completely happy

11 with the -- yes, now it -- there was a transcript where you were

12 transformed into Mr. Tieger but it has been corrected.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, for showing me that. I

14 did -- I actually missed.

15 Q. Now, sir, this document that you were shown by the Prosecution

16 talks of ground-to-ground missiles exploding near the city centre and it

17 talks of the missiles deploying parachutes during their terminal descent.

18 Did the modified air bombs as used by the Army of Republika Srpska

19 utilise parachutes?

20 A. No. The bombs were propelled by rocket engines.

21 Q. And in relation to the launchers that we had at the VRS, could

22 multiple modified air bombs be launched simultaneously?

23 A. No. Individually. Only individually.

24 Q. Could you also tell us, you were asked by Mr. Weber about the

25 lack of a barrel on the modified air bomb launchers. Now Grad rockets

Page 33505

1 when they are launched from a multiple rocket-launcher - that is to say,

2 in their original configuration without air bombs - how would you

3 describe the inner surface of the barrel that launches a Grad rocket from

4 a multiple-missile launcher system, Grad system?

5 A. Unlike a classical or conventional artillery tools,

6 multiple-rocket launchers, both our own and foreign made, and Grad is

7 Russian made, air bombs are fired from a smooth barrel. That barrel is

8 open on both side, it had openings on both side, in the bag to release

9 the gases from a rocket fuel and to push the rocket towards its goal.

10 The rocket engine is active until midway and then it's shut off, and then

11 the projectile travels by inertia to its target. The same principle is

12 applied in air bomb, modified air bombs, but those bombs could not be

13 placed in a barrel but rather on a launcher, and I've already explained

14 how that looked.

15 Q. Now, you said unlike classical or conventional artillery tools,

16 the barrel is smooth, I think you said. Could you describe for us the

17 difference between smooth barrels and the other type of barrels to begin

18 with when it comes to artillery weapons. That will be my first question?

19 A. The barrels of conventional artillery tools have grooves at a

20 certain angle all the way through the barrel. A projectile or a shell

21 which is lodged in the back of such a barrel, when it is fired it is

22 pushed by gun powder fumes that are created in the barrel. The

23 projectile has a ring which is then pressed into the grooves and it

24 rotates under a certain angle. That's how it gains stability on its

25 trajectory to the target. This is for conventional tools.

Page 33506

1 In rockets, air bombs, there is -- there are no grooves but a

2 rocket engine gives it power to propel itself to the target. The

3 principle is more or the less same minus the rotation.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. And you also answered the additional question I

5 anticipated to ask you.

6 On behalf of the General Mladic and the rest of the team, I thank

7 you for answering my questions today.

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that's all have I.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. I would have one question --

10 well, perhaps you listen carefully as well, Mr. Ivetic.

11 You were asked about the use of parachutes. And you said no,

12 they were not used, they were propelled by -- I don't know exactly, I

13 think by the engines. Well, of course --

14 Unless, Mr. Ivetic, that's what you intended to ask the witness,

15 whether there was any modified bomb that would be propelled by

16 parachutes, I understood the report to say that in its flight that on

17 from a certain point instead of just falling down that parachutes would

18 open so as to slow down the speed of their descent.

19 Therefore, I didn't understand the question to refer to anything

20 propelling the -- propelling the projectile, but the answer did go in

21 that direction, whereas I have difficulties in combining or to link your

22 question and the answer given by the witness.

23 If you could clarify that, that would certainly assist. And if

24 the witness could tell us as well whether he is aware of the use of

25 parachutes at all in any such projectiles, I would appreciate to receive

Page 33507

1 an answer.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. Let's take that into two parts. First of all, sir, the document

5 indicates -- the document we have on our screen indicates that the

6 missiles deployed parachutes during their terminal descent. Did the VRS

7 modified air bombs utilize parachutes in the manner that is reflected in

8 this document that we have before us whose number, unfortunately, escapes

9 me, but I think it is P7245.

10 Did the VRS modified air bombs utilize the parachutes in the

11 manner that is described by this document?

12 A. No, nor -- nor was it possible.

13 Q. Well, then I guess we have to have two more questions.

14 Could you first tell us why it was not possible?

15 A. Simply because we did not have any way to mount a parachute on a

16 bomb so that it would be open at a given point in time.

17 Further on, as a soldier I have to say that I don't know that any

18 air bomb descends from an aircraft using a parachute. Probably it -- the

19 wind would carry the parachute wherever rather than being part of a

20 system either from land or air.

21 Q. And now the final question I have: Did the modified aerial bombs

22 used by the VRS utilize parachutes at all in any manner, fashion, or

23 capacity?

24 A. No, not in any way. I am not aware of that even in theory, let

25 alone in practice.

Page 33525

1 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone being in the right position now, let's get

2 started.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Blagojevic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Now, you were found guilty by this Tribunal pursuant to

7 Article 7(1) of the Statute for aiding and abetting the commission of

8 murder in Bratunac town as a crime against humanity and the violation of

9 laws and customs of war. Do you take responsible for your involvement in

10 that crime?

11 A. Let me tell you straight away: That was an illegal decision of

12 this Tribunal, unfortunately.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question. The question was whether

14 you take responsibility for the crimes for which you were convicted.

15 Whether it's legal or not is -- is not asked.

16 Please proceed.

17 And please answer the question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat your question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you take responsibility for the crimes for

20 which you were convicted by this Tribunal.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I won't take that

22 responsibility, but I wish to add to that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question has been answered.

24 Next question, please, Ms. Hasan.

25 MS. HASAN:

Page 33526

1 Q. And I take it that your answer that you don't also applies to

2 your conviction under Count 5 for persecution as a crime against humanity

3 through the underlying acts of murder, terrorising civilian population,

4 cruel and inhumane treatment. I take it that applies to that as well.

5 And in addition to that, Count 6, which is inhumane acts as a crime

6 against humanity which was defined as forcible transfer. Am I right?

7 A. Are you right about what?

8 Q. That you don't take responsibility for those particular crimes as

9 well.

10 A. I don't take responsibility for that either.

11 Q. Now, so the record is clear, you were acquitted of your

12 involvement in the overall murder operation.

13 What I would like to turn to now is when you commenced your

14 position as the commander of the Bratunac Brigade in May of 1995, your

15 units were fully under your command, weren't they?

16 A. My brigade was under my command, yes.

17 Q. So you were responsible for -- as a commander for their acts;

18 yes?

19 A. As a commander, I was responsible for being in command over my

20 unit and for controlling its work.

21 Q. And your responsibility as their commander then, that would

22 include responsibility for acts including crimes committed by those

23 units; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. My command and control covered the entire work of my unit;

25 of my brigade, that is.

Page 33527

1 Q. Would you agree that you were also responsible for prisoners who

2 were detained within your zone of responsibility and who were guarded by

3 your -- members of your units?

4 A. Allow me to ask you what prisoners and what do you mean "your

5 zone of responsibility"? Please be more precise.

6 Q. I'm asking you a more general question at this point. If there

7 are prisoners within the Bratunac area of responsibility, okay? Do you

8 take responsibility for those prisoners detained there?

9 MR. LUKIC: I -- probably slip of the tongue. It says Bratunac

10 area of responsibility. Maybe you -- my learned friend wanted to ask

11 Bratunac Brigade area of responsibility or what, but there is no Bratunac

12 area of responsibility.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is a Bratunac area but that's not a very

14 precise description.

15 Ms. Hasan, would you please rephrase your question.

16 MS. HASAN: Thank you. Yes.

17 Q. So my question relates to the Bratunac area of --

18 Bratunac Brigade area of responsibility and specifically whether you take

19 responsibility for prisoners who are detained in that area?

20 MR. LUKIC: Again, we have to intervene here. Maybe we should

21 define first what is zone of responsibility of Bratunac Brigade.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think zone of responsibility is usually is

23 a -- is a general description.

24 And since we, at this moment, are still exploring the general

25 rule and not yet details because, Ms. Hasan, what the witness says could

Page 33528

1 you tell us what prisoners, you said I am asking just in general terms.

2 For that reason at this moment we do not need to clarify it, but perhaps

3 later on we'll have to do that.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Mr. Lukic, Ms. Hasan used the term "area of

5 responsibility" and not "zone of responsibility."

6 MR. LUKIC: I think it should be clarified with this gentleman

7 what he considers his area and what is by the rules his area of

8 responsibility. First, to be able to see if there is anybody placed by

9 the -- or anybody from the prisoner group was placed at that area.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But we at this moment are not talking about a

11 specific group or any, or I would say, live prisoners. It's just a

12 question at this moment on the more or less general theoretical level,

13 whether Mr. Blagojevic would be responsible for any prisoners if there

14 were any within the zone of responsibility of the unit he commanded.

15 That's the question, Ms. Hasan, if I understood you well.

16 MS. HASAN: Yes, you have, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness please answer that

18 question.

19 If you want to have it repeated, I'll invite Ms. Hasan to do so.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to hear a very

21 concrete question, irrespective of the fact whether it's practical -- of

22 a practical nature or of a theoretical nature.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's Ms. Hasan who formulates the questions. And if

24 you would like to hear another question, it's a pity for you, but you

25 have to answer the question as put to you.

Page 33529

1 Do you want Ms. Hasan to repeat the question?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let her repeat it.

3 MS. HASAN:

4 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, in your area of responsibility, and you know your

5 area of responsibility, if there are prisoners within that area, any part

6 of that area, any prisoners, are you responsible for those prisoners?

7 A. I must say in very precise military terms that I had the zone of

8 defence of the Bratunac Brigade at the relevant time. I'm not going to

9 try and define the zone of defence of the Bratunac Brigade. If somebody

10 wants me to, I will. In any case, I didn't have any prisoners in the

11 zone of defence of the Bratunac Brigade, and if I had had them, I would

12 have been responsible for them.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

14 MS. HASAN:

15 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you became commander of the Bratunac Brigade on

16 the 25th of May, 1995; that's correct?

17 A. Yes, I assumed my official duties on the 25th of May, 1995, and

18 became the commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

19 MS. HASAN: Could we briefly look at 65 ter 04202.

20 Q. This -- what you'll see here, it's a document you've seen before,

21 Mr. Blagojevic, and it's a regular combat report. It's from the 25th of

22 May, 1995.

23 MS. HASAN: And if we could just briefly, in the B/C/S, turn to

24 page 3 where we see the handwritten version of this report.

25 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you recognise your signature on the bottom of

Page 33530

1 that document?

2 MS. HASAN: If we can just scroll down a little bit so that we

3 can see.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see this now.

5 MS. HASAN:

6 Q. And under item 2, it provides that you took over command at 10.00

7 in the morning. Do you see that? 1000 hours.

8 A. I can see that.

9 Q. And that's accurate?

10 A. Yes. According to the document and according to what I remember,

11 this is accurate.

12 Q. And just at the beginning of the document, under item 1, it

13 reads:

14 "The enemy did not conduct combat operations against our forces."

15 It continues in the first line of item 2:

16 "Our forces did not open fire towards the demilitarised zone."

17 Now this is a report, and it's from 16 -- so 4.00 p.m. Do you

18 see -- at the bottom there, we see a handwritten notation.

19 A. I can't see that.

20 Q. Oh, sorry.

21 A. Maybe it's somewhere else. Maybe on a different page.

22 Q. That's correct.

23 MS. HASAN: Can we go back to the -- page 1 of the B/C/S document

24 where we can see the handwritten notation.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can see that.

Page 33531

1 MS. HASAN:

2 Q. And, in fact, had there been such firing into the demilitarised

3 zone, it's something that you -- that would have required orders from

4 you?

5 A. What does it say here? I can't see that fire was opened.

6 Q. Let me just restate my question.

7 It says here that your forces did not fire -- did not open fire

8 towards the demilitarised zone. And my question is: Had your forces

9 opened fire, it would have been something you would have been made aware

10 of and in fact you would have ordered; is that correct?

11 A. If my subordinated units had to open fire on Srebrenica enclave,

12 there would have had to be a reason for that. So if fire had come from

13 the enclave, I'm sure that I would have issued an order to respond with

14 firing at the locations from which fire had been opened in the first

15 place. That's how I would have reacted, and that's the kind of order I

16 would have issued to my unit.

17 MS. HASAN: Could we now take a look at 65 ter 06034, please.

18 Oh, and I'd offer 65 ter 04202 into evidence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7253, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

22 MS. HASAN:

23 Q. Now we see here, this is a very urgent order. It bears strictly

24 confidential number 08/8-60. We can just keep that in mind because I'll

25 get back to that. And it's an order from General Zivanovic. It's

Page 33532

1 informing all units that -- we can see here in the second -- in the first

2 main paragraph, that:

3 "At 1558 hours the forces of the NATO Pact have carried out a

4 fire attack against the Jahorinski Potok warehouse ..."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I can see that at the very beginning.

7 Q. This was a weapons warehouse near Pale; is that right?

8 A. I suppose so. I suppose that this is correct.

9 Q. And General Zivanovic orders under item 1 in relation to that,

10 that the Drina Corps forces are to remain in full combat readiness, and

11 he orders the raising of combat readiness to the highest level and

12 specifies that any opening of fire shall be regulated by the Drina Corps

13 through the Grabovica signals table.

14 Now, we see at the top that this order is addressed to a number

15 of brigades, including the Bratunac Brigade; do you see that?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. So this is an order you received; is that right?

18 A. I assume that it arrived in the command.

19 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 06034 into evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7254, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

23 MS. HASAN:

24 Q. Now this would have been an order would you have -- you received

25 on the -- this is still -- we're talking here about your first day at

Page 33533

1 work, isn't that right, as a brigade commander?

2 A. Do you think that I received it on that day that we are talking

3 about, the 25th of May?

4 Q. I'm asking you whether, on the -- whether the 25th of May, which

5 is the date of this order, was the first day you were in office as

6 commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

7 A. 25th of May, 1995, was the first day when I assumed my duty and

8 started commanding the Bratunac Brigade.

9 Q. And not long after NATO attacked the weapons warehouse, you

10 ordered your units to fire at the inhabited Srebrenica enclave, didn't

11 you?

12 A. I don't know on the basis of what you are saying that. I'm

13 saying that that is not the case.

14 MS. HASAN: Could we look at 65 ter 06025, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, while waiting for that document, may I

16 draw your attention to the fact that earlier you -- in one question you

17 dealt with receiving an order on the same date as taking up duties. And

18 that you said, "I asked you," and then you phrased as question which

19 covered only one part of your question. I don't know whether you're

20 interested in whether or not the witness received it or not, but he until

21 now only testified that the unit received it.

22 Perhaps you'll re-read it later. There's no need to immediately

23 deal with the matter.

24 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, if we take a look at this interim combat report, it's dated

Page 33534

1 25 May 1995 from the command of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade,

2 and we see your name there at the bottom and an indication there in

3 handwritten note that it's delivered at 2110 hours on 25 May; do you see

4 that?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Now this goes to the Drina Corps, and at paragraph 3, it reads:

7 "We have taken steps in accordance with your order strictly confidential

8 number 08/8-60 of 25 May 1995."

9 Do you see that there?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And this confidential number, if you recall, is just the document

12 we looked at, General Zivanovic's order. Does that confirm to you

13 whether or not your command received that order on the 25th of May?

14 A. This sentence that you read out to me confirms some other

15 measures that were contained in the previous document, and they include

16 those measures too. You read out just part of that document. You didn't

17 read it in its entirety.

18 Q. But we can agree that it means that the order we just looked at

19 from General Zivanovic was received by your brigade command on the 25th

20 of May?

21 A. Yes. This confirms that consistently.

22 Q. If we look at item 1, this report provides that:

23 "In accordance with an oral order from Colonel Lazic, we fired

24 two shells from 105-millimetre howitzers (a total of four shells) on the

25 town of Srebrenica at 1907 hours."

Page 33535

1 It goes on to provide that:

2 "Artillery observers at Pribicevac reported that two shells fell

3 near the Domavija feature. The other two shells were not observed but

4 they fell on Srebrenica."

5 Now the Domavija is -- feature, that's the hotel in the

6 Srebrenica town?

7 A. Conditionally speaking, yes, it's a hotel, but at that time it

8 wasn't used for those purposes. It was used for military purposes.

9 Q. And the other two shells, as indicated here, the artillery

10 observers at Pribicevac, they did not see -- they did not see those

11 shells, did they, as is reported here?

12 A. Yes, that is what is written.

13 Q. Do you take responsibility for firing those shells?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, this -- if I can take you, actually, back to -- actually, I

16 won't go there yet, but I'll ask you this now: Colonel Lazic here is

17 recorded as having issued an oral order, "and in accordance with that,

18 we, the Bratunac Brigade, fired the two shells."

19 Now isn't it correct, Mr. Blagojevic, that you would be -- you

20 would have been the commander who implemented Colonel Lazic's order?

21 A. It is a fact that Colonel Lazic issued the order orally. It

22 wasn't issued on paper. He issued it orally. But he issued it to the

23 crew who were doing the firing and he had communication with the

24 artillery observers who showed the targets that were supposed to be

25 engaged.

Page 33536

1 Q. Can you remind us who Colonel Lazic is?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary

3 microphones be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we're talking about the same

5 person, Colonel Lazic - Milan, I think, his first name was, if I'm not

6 mistaken - he was from the corps command, from the operations organ, as

7 far as I can remember, so that was my immediate superior command.

8 MS. HASAN:

9 Q. Now, Mr. Blagojevic, you recall testifying in the Karadzic case,

10 don't you? This was in December of 2013.

11 A. Yes, I was a witness in the Karadzic case.

12 Q. Did you tell the truth in that case?

13 A. Yes, as I'm telling the truth now.

14 MS. HASAN: Could we just briefly then look at Mr. Blagojevic's

15 Karadzic testimony, which is 65 ter 32300. And if we could look at

16 page 40, please.

17 Q. And you were asked in that case at line 8:

18 "Q. So do you take responsibility for firing these howitzers

19 shells on the Srebrenica enclave?

20 "A. Partly, yes.

21 "Q. What do you mean "partly"?

22 "A. Because of the oral order I received from Colonel Lazic. He

23 was there. It's in the report. You have read it out. He represented

24 the superior command.

25 "Q. Yes. He shares responsibility from the Drina Corps, as did

Page 33537

1 anyone that may have issued orders from the Main Staff, as is anyone from

2 the Presidency that may have also have issued such an order; correct.

3 "A. It's not about sharing. It's about assuming responsibility.

4 He assumes responsibility because he was there and he issued that order

5 to me."

6 So, Mr. Blagojevic, do you stand by that testimony you gave.

7 A. Now? I stand by what I said previously in the Karadzic case and

8 what I said today. I can't see any difference. I said all the same

9 things.

10 Q. Do you assume responsibility for your units firing these shells?

11 A. Well, I cannot assume it because I was not the initiator of this

12 activity. That activity was initiated from a command that was my

13 superior command, and the protagonist was there and he carried that out.

14 It is a fact that artillery pieces were from the Bratunac Brigade but

15 that does not resolve anything in particular because it was military

16 principles that were being abided by. The superior command did that and

17 noticed military targets were engaged, artillery observers indicated

18 that, and that is what it has to do with to the best of my knowledge.

19 Q. Sir, you said in the Karadzic case that you had received the

20 order from Colonel Lazic. We -- I've just read that out. So you

21 received this order from Colonel Lazic. Your units implement this order.

22 Are you saying your units are responsible and you are not?

23 A. No. It's not the way you are presenting it. Colonel Lazic went

24 to the artillery position, he communicated with the observers, and he

25 carried this operation out. That is the situation. Not the way you've

Page 33538

1 been putting it, that he issued an order to me, and that he --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

3 start his answer again. It was too fast for precise interpretation of

4 each and every word. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please re-start your answer

6 because you are speaking too quickly for the interpreters to interpret

7 all of your words.

8 Could you please restart your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I said.

10 Colonel Lazic, and we have already said that he's from the operations

11 organ of the Drina Corps, he was at the firing position of that artillery

12 unit. He established communication with the artillery observers who gave

13 him the targets. He issued the order to have these artillery pieces

14 fire, and that was it. That is how this situation evolved.

15 My role, I was not there directly. I know through all of this, I

16 know through this report about all of this. I know about how this --

17 about what this report says, but I did not take part in what actually

18 evolved.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said that you testified in accordance

20 with the truth in Karadzic and you testified today truthfully as well.

21 There are two clear differences: The one is in Karadzic you said

22 that you partially take responsibility; whereas, today you said you take

23 no responsibility.

24 The second is that in the Karadzic case you told that Lazic had

25 issued the order to you; whereas, today you've told us that Lazic did

Page 33539

1 issue the order directly to the crew.

2 These are two differences in two matters. Just for you to know

3 that it's difficult to reconcile you telling us that you testified

4 truthfully both in Karadzic and here where there are these differences.

5 Ms. Hasan, we don't have to spend ages on it. The matter seems

6 to be clear.

7 But if you have in the further comment on this, please give it.

8 Otherwise, Ms. Hasan will put her next question to you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: In addition do that, if we could look ...

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto even found another difference which he

12 may explain to you.

13 But first would you explain on the differences I already pointed

14 at? If you want to do that. If you don't have further explanations,

15 then perhaps the third one will be put to you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: In addition to that --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I do. I do wish to say

18 something. Because I'm speaking on the basis of facts. To my best

19 recollection. And since you insist, I will try to say why I said this,

20 partly.

21 It can only pertain to the following; namely, that these

22 artillery pieces were within the Bratunac Brigade or rather the property

23 of the Bratunac Brigade. Well, that would be that, what I would like to

24 say by way of an additional point.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have just told us a few minutes ago that

Page 33540

1 Mr. Lazic gave the order and you were not there when the order was

2 undertaken. In your report to the Drina Corps, which we saw a few

3 minutes ago, you said "we launched a firing" into Srebrenica.

4 Now, you didn't say, "My units did so on Lazic's orders." You

5 said, "We did." That's another difference that I just want to point out

6 to you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond? May I explain?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to point out a difference to you.

9 You can decide whether you --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to respond. I wish to give

11 you an answer.

12 This is a daily combat report that we are speaking about and it

13 is compiled at the brigade command. It is written by an organ, by a part

14 of the brigade, by a person from the brigade. He formulated it in this

15 way. It is formulated briefly, anyway. And clearly because it's sent by

16 this -- this -- I mean, stenography, and that's the way it is. Perhaps

17 at that moment I did not pay attention to it. It wasn't the way I would

18 have wanted it to be. But what is written there is written, and I have

19 told you everything else on the basis of the facts that I recall in good

20 faith.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm sorry, let me just put one clarification

23 question.

24 You said Colonel Lazic issued this order. Can you tell me to

25 whom this order was issued orally?

Page 33541

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the crew. The unit. The

2 artillery unit that is operating the artillery piece.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you said a minute ago that you were not

4 present. Is that true?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he issued those orders?

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I wasn't present. That's

8 correct.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But again, why did you say in the Karadzic case,

10 that is line 12 in front of us:

11 "Because of the oral order I received from Colonel Lazic ..."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what's written in the

13 transcript, but that doesn't change things significantly. I am just

14 telling you how this was carried out on the basis of facts. Now, you can

15 compare that to my statement and you can see where the truth lies. And

16 the truth is there in the answer that I provided, in what I said.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And some lines further down you said in the

18 Karadzic case:

19 "He assumes responsibility because he was there and he issued

20 that order to me."

21 That is what you said in the Karadzic case.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm saying that now too. That

23 he assumes responsibility for the implementation of that military

24 activities.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. But you said he issued the order to you.

Page 33542

1 That is what you said. Twice in the Karadzic case.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how it was interpreted

3 or how it was written down, but I said the same thing. I said the same

4 thing that I'm telling you right now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as it is recorded it's not exactly the same.

6 If you challenge the accuracy of what you said, the transcript, or if you

7 challenge the interpretation of your words, we have an opportunity to

8 check that. If that's what you want, then we'll do it.

9 And, Mr. Lukic, I don't know whether you have paid any attention

10 to the words of this witness in the Karadzic case in the original

11 version, that is, the B/C/S he spoke.

12 MR. LUKIC: I have to admit that I read the transcript in

13 English.

14 JUDGE ORIE: In English, okay. Then if the witness insists -- if

15 you insist that's not what you said, then we'll verify it. If you say

16 it's possible that that's what I said, then we leave it as it is.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no doubt as to what I've

18 been saying. I'm telling the truth. I'm speaking to the best of my

19 recollection, and you can check and verify whatever you wish. That is

20 for you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's important for you as well because it may

22 be relevant for the assessment of the reliability and the credibility of

23 your evidence, but in all fairness to the accused we'll have it verified.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

25 MS. HASAN: Just a quick question. I note that it's time for the

Page 33543

1 break.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. It's even beyond the time. We'll take

3 a break.

4 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'll resume at ten

5 minutes to -- no, not -- at five minutes to 2.00.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Before we take the break.

8 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Domazet, we are now entering in the next break.

11 It may be clear that you should not speak with the witness about his

12 testimony in any way. You can talk about the weather if you wish but

13 nothing else. And, of course, if you would not meet, then, of course,

14 even any appearance of this happening would be -- would not even come to

15 anyone's mind, but the instruction simply is that if you speak to the

16 witness, no -- the -- the testimony of the witness, whether already given

17 or still to be given should not be the subject of your conversation.

18 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours, no, I had no intention to speak with

19 the ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we take a break and will resume at 2.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 1.40 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 2.01 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, I'd briefly like to address to short

24 matter. I think I earlier said when I addressed you, page 72, I said:

25 "I don't know whether you're interested in whether or not the