Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33636

 1                           Wednesday, 25 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             No preliminaries were announced.  Therefore, could the witness be

11     escorted in the courtroom.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, your next witness would be Mr. Savcic?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

14     Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I already draw your attention, Mr. Stojanovic,

16     that 65 ter number on your associated exhibit list, 04635, if I

17     understand well, is 186 pages.  I don't know whether you need them all.

18     That's my first question.

19             The second is that the one following that on your list, 05618,

20     that seems to be P3476 which was admitted on the 16th of October, 2013.

21             Could that be that it's already in evidence?

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please pay attention to that.

24             Good morning, Mr. Savcic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 33637

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 2     make a solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.

 3     May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR SAVCIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Savcic.

 9             Mr. Savcic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

10     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

11     Mr. Mladic.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Savcic, good morning.

16        A.   Good morning to everyone.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I begin, I

18     would like to give a hard copy of Mr. Savcic's statement to him.  It is

19     unmarked completely.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  And we'll hear from the Prosecution

21     whether they want to inspect the document first, which they're fully

22     entitled to do.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We actually gave them the document and agreed

24     that this was a good idea, so I think we're in good shape.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It can be given to the witness right away.

Page 33638

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Savcic, for the record, would you please tell us your full

 4     name.

 5        A.   My name is Milomir Savcic.

 6        Q.   Mr. Savcic, have you given a statement to the Defence team of

 7     Mr. Radovan Karadzic in writing in response to questions that were put to

 8     you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court

11     65 ter 1D04806.

12        Q.   Mr. Savcic, you have your statement in hard copy as well.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look in the last page.

14     Could we look at the last page of this document.

15        Q.   Mr. Savcic, do you recognise the signature on this page?  Whose

16     is it?

17        A.   It's my signature.

18        Q.   The date that we see here, is it written in your hand?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Savcic, let us focus now on paragraph 46 of your statement.

21     May I ask you:  During proofing, did you tell me that for the sake of

22     precision and accuracy, it would be necessary behind the words "in

23     connection with" to add "intentions to attack"?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Leaving the rest of the paragraph unchanged?

Page 33639

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   And I would ask you now to look at paragraph 48.  In relation to

 3     this paragraph, did you tell me that for the sake of precision and better

 4     overview of the documents, it would be necessary to add behind the words

 5     "compiled by," "the commander of the 285th iblbr, Avdo Palic, pursuant to

 6     the order dated 26 June 1995 issued by Major Ramiz Becirovic," and then

 7     the rest of the text.

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Now with these corrections and now that you have given the solemn

10     declaration, if I were to put to you the same questions, would your

11     answers be identical and would they reflect your best knowledge of these

12     events and your best recollection?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

16     tender the statement of Witness Milomir Savcic, 1D04806.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D968, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, admitted.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So this would be the right

21     moment, Your Honours, to tender also the accompanying documents with the

22     proviso that some of the documents on our list will not be tendered for

23     understandable reasons.

24             I tender, therefore, 65 ter 04119.

25             And we do not tender 04635, rules of the brigade, because it will

Page 33640

 1     be used also with our expert witness.  We also do not tender 05618

 2     because it has number 53476 [as interpreted].

 3             And then we tender 65 ter 05685, 1D03735, 1D04807.

 4             We do not tender 1D04808 because it's not necessary considering

 5     that two items of the rules for snipers are fully quoted in Mr. Savcic's

 6     statement.

 7             And then we tender the remaining three documents: 1D05318, then

 8     23905, and 26060.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please reserve seven

10     numbers, make a short list for the ...

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you please reserve seven

13     numbers and make a short list which numbers would be assigned to what

14     exhibits.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Numbers reserved will be

16     Exhibits D969 through to Exhibits D975.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  There are no objections

20     against admission.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, just one -- one clarification.

22             You said you will not tender 65 ter 4635 -- no, sorry.

23     65 ter 5618 because it has number P53476.  Is that -- that is what you

24     said and it's on the record, but we are of the view that it is P3476.

25     The first digit.

Page 33641

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

 2     That's perfectly right.  And I have just been told page 5, line 1 of the

 3     transcript, the correct number is P3476.  Thank you for your assistance.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to

 7     read out the short summary of this witness's statement.

 8             Witness Milomir Savcic is a professional military man who was in

 9     active-duty service until 2002 when he retired in the rank of

10     lieutenant-general.

11             When the war broke out, he was in Sarajevo working as lecturer in

12     the military school located in Marsal Tito barracks.  He testifies about

13     attacks on the barracks and units of the JNA during those days by Muslim

14     forces and about their positions in the urban core of the city of

15     Sarajevo from where they attacked with artillery weapons, snipers, and

16     anti-armour weapons.

17             After leaving Sarajevo, he joined the VRS, and beginning with

18     September 1992 until the end of the war, he served as commander of the

19     65th Protection Motorised Regiment of the Main Staff of the VRS.  His

20     unit took part in battles throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and discharged

21     regular missions protecting the installations and facilities of the

22     Main Staff of the VRS, in securing the movement of humanitarian convoys

23     in the zones of contact between the warring parties and combat

24     operations, and in the disarmament and arrest of numerous paramilitary

25     units.  The unit took part in combat in the outer ring around Sarajevo in

Page 33642

 1     which fighting he was himself seriously wounded in 1994 and spent time

 2     receiving treatment until June 1995.

 3             On 26 June 1995, the 28th Division of the BH Army launched an

 4     attack from the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa against the

 5     headquarters of the Main Staff of the VRS.  The target of attack by these

 6     units, according to available intelligence, was to take purely Serb

 7     territories, to cut off the main road from Sarajevo to Zvornik, to

 8     achieve joint co-ordinated action lifting the blockade from Sarajevo,

 9     linking up with Muslim forces from Tuzla and Kladanj, and bringing Serb

10     forces in a very disadvantageous tactical position.  He testifies about

11     reconnaissance activities facing Zepa and the order to attack on the axis

12     towards Zepa on the -- of the 14th July 1995.  He was fully engaged in

13     this fighting until about 25 July 1995.

14             Further, he testifies in detail about the document of

15     13th July 1995 entitled:  Procedure on the treatment of prisoners of war

16     that was allegedly sent by the forward command post of the

17     65th Protection Regiment under his name.  Without going into the

18     authenticity and the authorship of this document, he explains the rules

19     used by the VRS to govern this issue as a fully legitimate procedure

20     followed by any army in such a situation.  He compares this document with

21     the documents of the Main Staff of the VRS from that period and maintains

22     that all these documents confirm his conviction that the order of the

23     13th of July, 1995, has absolutely no relation to any plan to liquidate

24     prisoners.

25             That was the summary of Witness Savcic's statement.  With your

Page 33643

 1     leave, I will put several questions to Mr. Savcic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Savcic, I would like to call up paragraph 33 in your

 5     statement.  I would like to see that on the screen.  The number is D968.

 6     In this paragraph, you talk about your activities and the activities of

 7     your unit when it came to the elimination of paramilitary groups.  During

 8     the war, did you receive such orders, such specific orders, from

 9     General Mladic directly?  And I'm talking about dealing with paramilitary

10     formations.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber something about those

13     situations?

14        A.   It happened on several occasions.  I received direct orders from

15     the commander of the Main Staff.  In those orders, he would specify the

16     location of those paramilitary units, what kind of obstruction they

17     posed, and what kind of problems they created in the territory where they

18     were located, and he would warn me to follow a certain procedure, that I

19     should first issue a warning, asking for their IDs, and so on and so

20     forth.  I -- in other words, I should follow the rules of the military

21     police.  He always suggested that I should get in touch with the local

22     commander, with the police, the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska,

23     if necessary, with the civilian authorities in order to gather as much

24     information in order to be able to arrive at the right order on the use

25     of my unit and on the way to eliminate those paramilitary groups.

Page 33644

 1        Q.   Did such orders lead you to draw a conclusion as to what the

 2     position of General Mladic and the Main Staff was vis-ā-vis the

 3     activities of such paramilitary groups?

 4        A.   Yes.  From the very outset, the Main Staff led by the commander

 5     took measures in order to create a proper army with uniforms and

 6     insignia.  On several occasions, I received warnings, although he knew

 7     that I was not responsibile for the entire territory of Republika Srpska.

 8     For example, when I came back from some part of the territory, he would

 9     tell me, "Those people there sport insignia which are not appropriate."

10     So from the very first day, they were attempts to create a proper army,

11     with proper insignia, with uniforms, a single command, and everything

12     else that a military organisation entails.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at paragraph 42 in your statement.

14     You have it in hard copy.  I would like to call it up on the screen.  For

15     the record, it is still D968.

16             Mr. Savcic, in that paragraph, you say that you had three

17     opportunities to use 105-kilo aerial bombs as support equipment to the

18     regiment's combat group.  To the best of your recollection, when did that

19     happen?  Can you give us a time-frame?

20        A.   I'm sure about two of those three occasions.  I'm sure that fire

21     was opened on Mosevacko Brdo on the 11th of October, 1994.  All day we

22     were engaged with the 16th Division of the 1st Corps.  Sometime late in

23     the afternoon or in the evening we took over that facility, the

24     Aspiljska Stijene sector.

25             I can't remember the exact date, but I know that it was in

Page 33645

 1     May 1994 when I received an order from the commander of the Main Staff.

 2     I arrived from Brcko in that area in order to prevent the Muslim forces

 3     in their advance towards the road to Zvornik.  That was in mid-May 1994.

 4             As for the Gradina feature, that same year, it was winter, there

 5     was snow on the ground, so it could have been sometime in February or

 6     March 1994.

 7        Q.   Could you please clarify for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

 8     Mosevacko Brdo, Gradina, and Aspiljska Stijene, were those settled areas,

 9     sectors, features, what were those locations?

10        A.   Those were not settled areas.  They were far from the nearest

11     houses.  Even if there had been houses there, they were not inhabited

12     because those were the zones of combat activities.  That was manoeuvre

13     area transected by either our line of defence or the Muslim defence.

14     Aspiljska Stijene was first controlled by us, then by Muslims, and then

15     we took it over.  As for Mosevacko Brdo, it was under the control of the

16     Muslims.  We took the control over.  And Gradina, as far as I remember,

17     was under the Muslim forces control all the time.  We never managed to

18     take over control over that feature during combat.  In other words, those

19     three locations were far from any settled areas.

20        Q.   What made you draw the conclusion about the precision of the

21     equipment you used, as we can see in paragraph 42?

22        A.   I did not make any conclusions.  I saw it myself.  The tactic of

23     my unit was to get as close as possible to the enemy, to be at a safe

24     distance from our own artillery, if the support of 120-mortar

25     [as interpreted] support was enough and it -- those were our own mortar,

Page 33646

 1     then I could lead those projectiles in front of me at a distance of 40

 2     metres.  Our tactic was to get as close as possible to the enemy and to

 3     make most of the artillery assets - in this case, aerial bombs.  And as

 4     soon as the aerial bomb was fired, we would take those facilities while

 5     the enemy was still in the state of disarray.  So this was not a

 6     conclusion.  This was just what I saw in front of me.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the counsel please make

 8     pauses, and could the witness please be instructed to slow down.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are speaking far too fast for the

10     interpreters to follow.  Could you please slow down.  Could you please

11     take a short break between question and answer.

12             And for you, Mr. Stojanovic, a short pause between answer and

13     question.

14             And could I just ask you a few follow-up questions in this

15     respect.  What exactly had been targeted at Mosevacko Brdo?  What was it

16     that was targeted?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The targets at Mosevacko Brdo were

18     the positions of Muslim forces.  I'm talking about wooden and earth

19     facilities from which Muslim forces opened fire on our positions.  There

20     was a very long line, not just one facility.  There was a long line of

21     such features or facilities which were connected with communication

22     trenches, and in this particular case the target of our activity was the

23     central trench on Mosevacko Brdo.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, earlier you said that there were no

25     houses there, and if there were houses, they would not have been

Page 33647

 1     inhabited.  Now which of the two -- I mean, if you say there are no

 2     houses, you don't have to explain what would be the situations if there

 3     were houses.  Which of the two is the case?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right.  There was no need

 5     to add that.  There were no houses at all.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  There were no houses at all.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   And now let's look at paragraph 83 in your statement; still D968.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If we are leaving this paragraph, Mr. Stojanovic, I

12     would have one or two follow-up questions.  I didn't know whether you had

13     done with paragraph 42.

14             Could you tell us, by what equipment were these aerial bombs?

15     What was the launching system?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never got well acquainted with

17     that system.  I saw it in passing on one or two occasions, but I don't

18     know the details of its functioning.  Here I'm talking about fire support

19     from that system.  This is not my specialty.  I did not know the

20     characteristics of that system just like I didn't know the characteristic

21     of other support -- fire support systems such as howitzers or mortars or

22     any such things.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether there were any firing tables for

24     these aerial bombs?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat:  I have never had an

Page 33648

 1     opportunity to get acquainted with that system and its characteristics or

 2     features.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But you observed when they were fired, isn't it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fire was opened behind the

 5     attacking unit.  I just explained what the tactic was.  I focused my

 6     attention on the enemy in front of me and its behaviour.  I waited for

 7     the moment when an aerial bomb was fired on the facility, to observe the

 8     effect of that fire.  If the effect was positive, I moved my unit

 9     immediately in order to take control over that facility.  In other words,

10     my focus, the focus of my attention was on what was going on in front of

11     me, not behind me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And do I understand that the target was a relatively

13     large surface, where trenches were, which, of course, you wanted to hit

14     in the heart, but that it was a relatively large terrain which was

15     targeted?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an area whose surface was

17     some 100 square metres in all the three cases.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In paragraph 42, you said you didn't draw any

19     conclusions about the precision of the equipment.  Does this mean that --

20     that what's you told us, where paragraph 42 may suggest that you do, but

21     is it true that you can't give us any details about how precise these --

22     the use of this weapon was?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any other experiences

24     apart from those three examples.  For example, Mosevacko Brdo, fighting

25     for that facility went on for an entire day.  The 105-millimetre

Page 33649

 1     howitzers, 120-millimetre mortars did not yield any results, the enemy

 2     was still there, and the corps command suggested that I should be

 3     supported by the aerial bomb.  I accepted that, the aerial bomb was

 4     fired, and after that I took over the Mosevacko Brdo feature from Muslim

 5     forces.  And later, I learnt that the commander of the 16th Division of

 6     the Muslim army got killed in that action; in that location, that is.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that the target was approximately 100

 8     square kilometres -- 100 square metres.  That is 10 by 10 metres, which

 9     is very limited.

10             Now, you said the 120-millimetre did not yield any result.  From

11     the evidence which was presented in this courtroom, I learned that a

12     mortar is an area weapon specifically used for purposes of troops in the

13     field to be attacked.  What explains now that where a 120-millimetre

14     mortar does not yield any success, that an aerial bomb, which you say was

15     fired at a target of 100 square metres, would have a better success?  I'm

16     trying to understand the logic of what you told us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The logic of that is very simple.

18     Those were well reinforced features.  I was -- in a number of situations

19     when a mortar shell hit a facility where I was without any consequences.

20     Do you see what I mean?  A mortar shell is not intended to destroy

21     reinforced facilities and features.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I now understand the logic.  It's the greater power,

23     explosive power of the aerial bomb which could not be achieved by a

24     mortar.  That's -- I understand.  Thank you for that explanation.

25             Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 33650

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   We left off, Mr. Savcic, at item 83, where you speak about the

 3     activities of your unit from 14th July approximately until the 25th July.

 4             Could you tell the Court in the framework of your activities

 5     towards Zepa, did you have occasion to meet General Mladic?

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you repeat that answer?

 8        A.   In that period, I met General Mladic in that area several times.

 9        Q.   When and where?

10        A.   What I remember very clearly is that we met up Brezova Ravan.

11     It's a feature where the Ukrainian check-point was.  The Muslims took

12     over that check-point, and then I took it over from them.  That's where

13     General Mladic met up with General Smith, the commander of UNPROFOR.

14     General Mladic was present there and observed and monitored how I led

15     this battle to take over Brezova Ravan, but I don't remember him making

16     any comments or suggestions to me.  And I remember at least three

17     occasions where I met him in that sector near Zepa.  Maybe I met him more

18     than three times, but I don't remember.

19        Q.   And in conclusion, let me ask you this:  Did you or your unit at

20     any point receive any orders from General Mladic that you believe were

21     contrary to the laws and rules of warfare?

22        A.   I did not receive a single order that would run counter to the

23     laws of warfare, not even when activities were conducted in the area of

24     security; that is to say, activities governed by the rules of military

25     police.

Page 33651

 1        Q.   Thank you for your answers, Mr. Savcic.  That would be all for

 2     now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Savcic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 7     Mr. McCloskey.  You find Mr. McCloskey to your right.  Mr. McCloskey is

 8     counsel for the Prosecution.

 9             Please proceed.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

11        Q.   Morning, General.

12        A.   Good morning, Mr. McCloskey.

13        Q.   I'll briefly go to Zepa since you left off there saying that

14     there was no -- no criminal orders.  Who issued the order to murder

15     Avdo Palic, the commander of the Zepa Brigade?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   If he was, in fact, murdered by the VRS, who would have had to

18     issue that order?

19        A.   As far as I know, Avdo Palic was taken prisoner.  It's a long

20     story, and I really couldn't answer that question from what I know.  I

21     don't know who the perpetrator of that crime is.

22        Q.   I won't dwell on this, but I think you'll agree with me a private

23     or a sergeant or a lieutenant or a major could not issue an order to

24     murder Avdo Palic.  Who -- this would have to have been an order at the

25     highest levels of the VRS or the state, would it not, to murder a

Page 33652

 1     prisoner, the commander of the Zepa Brigade?

 2        A.   You're asking me to make assumptions.  I did have the opportunity

 3     to see Avdo Palic after capturing Brezova Ravan.  I then went into Zepa

 4     but I didn't do anything to harm him.  I was not either a private or a

 5     very high-ranking commander.

 6        Q.   I'm not suggesting you issued the order, General.  You agree with

 7     me he was murdered, don't you?

 8        A.   Later investigation proved --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat what you said.  "Later

11     investigation proved..."  Proved what?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later investigation proved that he

13     was murdered.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   So I'll ask you my question again.  For him to be murdered in the

16     custody of the VRS, that order would have to have been issued at the

17     highest levels of military or civilian structures; correct?

18        A.   I absolutely disagree.  Any irresponsible individual could have

19     done it.  But I don't know either who killed him or on whose orders.

20        Q.   Who did Krstic say killed him?

21        A.   I really don't know what Krstic said.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to another topic.  We've got that you retired in

23     2002.  We know that you were lieutenant-colonel and the commander of the

24     65th Protection Regiment in 1995.  Can you just very briefly give us your

25     career positions from 1995 through the time you retired.  But just your

Page 33653

 1     positions and rank.

 2        A.   From 1996, I was schooled at the school of the General Staff.  In

 3     October 1996, I got the lieutenant of colonel and then continued at the

 4     military school in Belgrade.  In 1997, I was made -- I was appointed to

 5     the General Staff of the VRS.  In 1998, I was placed at the disposal of

 6     the VRS because I was a war invalid and unfit for professional military

 7     service.  From 2000 to 2003, I was advisor in Republika Srpska for

 8     security, and I was later investigator for the Defence team of

 9     Dr. Karadzic and later head of investigations.  It is part of the war

10     veterans of Republika Srpska that includes the families of war veterans,

11     the survivors, and the war veterans themselves.

12        Q.   And you were, in fact, the chief investigator for the trial of

13     Radovan Karadzic; correct?

14        A.   You could say that.

15        Q.   And as the chief investigator, you had the opportunity to review

16     many of the materials that were provided in disclosure to

17     Radovan Karadzic or materials that he had himself; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you said that you were a member of the General Staff which we

20     believe was called the General Staff because it was no longer war time;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   In 1997, I was not part of the Main Staff.  I was commander of a

23     staff regiment, but I was part of the General Staff of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.  I can't remember the exact date, but sometime in 1997,

25     to the best of my recollection, the Main Staff was renamed General Staff

Page 33654

 1     of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   We see here that you said on page 18, line 2, that:  "In 1997, I

 3     was made -- I was appointed to the General Staff of the VRS."

 4        A.   Yeah, the General Staff.

 5        Q.   And what was your position?

 6        A.   I was head of the Security Administration.

 7        Q.   And who was the assistant commander for intelligence and security

 8     at that time?  1997.

 9        A.   Already at that time there was no commander.  There was a chief

10     of the General Staff.  And these two services get separated again.  We

11     don't have assistant chief of General Staff for security and

12     intelligence.  Instead, we have heads of administrations that are

13     separated:  One is security; one is intelligence.

14        Q.   Who was your immediate supervisor, superior?

15        A.   Chief of the General Staff.

16        Q.   And who was that?

17        A.   At that time, Pero Colic.

18        Q.   And who was his superior?

19        A.   The president of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   And who was that?

21        A.   Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.

22        Q.   So as the chief of the Security Administration, how -- how long

23     did you hold that position for, in 1997?

24        A.   The entire year, 1997.  Perhaps until not mid-1998 but the first

25     three or four months.  That makes a total of 15 or 16 months.

Page 33655

 1        Q.   As the chief of security, you would have been aware of the

 2     activities of the Office of the Prosecutor in exhuming mass graves in the

 3     Republika Srpska, would you not?

 4        A.   At that time, I was really not aware of that.

 5        Q.   When you were chief of the security in the -- in the -- in 1997

 6     and 1998, you didn't know that the OTP was digging up hundreds of bodies

 7     in the Republika Srpska?  You never received a report on that?

 8        A.   No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to avoid any confusion, the last part of the

10     question of Mr. McCloskey was you never received a report on that.  You

11     said no.  Does the "no" also mean that you -- apart from receiving

12     reports, that you were not in any way informally even aware of

13     exhumation, exhumations performed by the OTP?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even informally.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

16        Q.   You know in 1998 the OTP searched the corps command in Banja Luka

17     of General Talic, and General Talic received authorisation to allow the

18     OTP and the international forces to search his corps, didn't he?

19        A.   By that time, I was no longer in the General Staff.

20        Q.   You can still answer my question, though, can't you?

21        A.   I was not aware of those activities.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President, or

23     close to.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It, indeed, is break time.

25             Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

Page 33656

 1     back after the break.  You may now follow the usher.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I can briefly deal with the following matter.  It's

 8     an invitation to respond to the GRM030, the video conference link motion.

 9     On the 20th of March, the Defence has filed a motion for the testimony to

10     be heard via video conference link during week of 20th of April.

11     Considering the limited amount of time before the witness is scheduled to

12     testify, the Chamber invites the Prosecution to respond by Monday, the

13     30th of March, if possible.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that it will be possible but we will hear

16     from you if not and why.

17             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed, with your cross-examination.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes, it is.  It is

19     possible.

20        Q.   Okay, General, let's go back to July 1995 and this -- the Chamber

21     has heard about the code-name Panorama, which I'm sure you'll remember.

22     And just can you remind us, Panorama was a code-name for what?

23        A.   If I'm not mistaken, I believe that was the command of the

24     Drina Corps.

25        Q.   Well, the command of the Drina Corps was not Panorama.  It was

Page 33657

 1     Zlatar.  Does that ring a bell to you?  Panorama was the code-name for

 2     the Main Staff.

 3        A.   Very rarely was I one of the participants because we used a

 4     communications on ultra shortwave, and that's why I said if I'm not

 5     mistaken.  I got mixed up on Panorama versus Zlatar, but not

 6     intentionally.

 7        Q.   No, I will probably let you know if I think you're doing

 8     something intentionally.  But can you agree with me now that you've had a

 9     chance to think about it that Panorama back in July was the code-name for

10     the Main Staff?

11        A.   I believe so.

12        Q.   And so if someone identified themselves as Panorama 01 over the

13     radio, who would that be?

14        A.   If Panorama stands for the Main Staff, 01 should be the commander

15     of the Main Staff.

16        Q.   Okay.  General Mladic?  Okay, we can agree on that.

17             Now, let's look at an intercept, and I can't recall if you've

18     seen this before.  I -- I -- or whether you saw it as your -- in your

19     role as chief investigator, but it's P1305.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So we shouldn't broadcast it.  This is one of

21     these confidential ones.

22        Q.   And the Bosnian printout is on the left.  This is an intercepted

23     communication provided to us by the 2nd Corps, and you'll see that

24     it's -- it's -- this is dated 14 July.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next page in the B/C/S.

Page 33658

 1        Q.   So can you see this, the actual intercept.  It's down the report

 2     a bit.  Okay.  And it -- this is -- the -- what's mentioned in this

 3     intercept is Panorama 3 and a Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.  It's the

 4     Prosecution's position that P in this conversation is

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.  And, sir, there was only one

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic in the VRS in July 1995; correct?

 7        A.   Not correct.

 8        Q.   All right.  There's another Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic?

 9        A.   Yes.  My uncle.

10        Q.   And what was his position?

11        A.   He was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Romanija Brigade throughout

12     the entire war.

13        Q.   And he wouldn't have had the code-name Panorama 3, would he?

14        A.   I don't know what his code-name was, but I did not have the

15     code-name Panorama 3 either.

16        Q.   Well, as you've said, if Mladic was Panorama 1, you'd agree with

17     me that Milovanovic would have been Panorama 2?

18        A.   Probably.

19        Q.   And who was Panorama 3?

20        A.   I really don't know.

21        Q.   Well, as we look at this intercept, we see that P is identifying

22     himself as Panorama 3.  It starts off:

23             "And who wants to know?"

24             P says: "Panorama 3."

25             And then the switchboard says:  "Panorama B?"

Page 33659

 1             And then P says:  "Panorama 3."

 2             And the switchboard says:  "Ah, you need

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, right?"

 4             P says:  "Go fuck yourself, you stupid idiot."

 5             Now, you'll agree with me is that the switchboard person

 6     basically identifies Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic as Panorama 3 in this

 7     intercept, doesn't he?

 8        A.   There's no doubt about that, but at that moment I did not have

 9     any communications means.  I was not connected to the radio network.  And

10     throughout the war, my code-name was Krivaja 300.  Everybody in the

11     military and the police knew me under that code-name.

12        Q.   Where were you on the 14th?

13        A.   On the 14th, I was supposed to be in the general sector of Zepa.

14        Q.   Yeah, not where you were supposed to be.  Where were you?

15        A.   Most probably I was there, but I can't really tell you with any

16     degree of certainty where I was 20 years ago.  It -- it would be hard for

17     me to -- to say that about yesterday, let alone 1995.

18        Q.   Well, we'll all agree that in your statement you said were in the

19     Borike area on the 13th with General Tolimir.

20        A.   Yes, until a certain time.  I suppose until the 13th or until the

21     early morning hours of the 14th, but I really can't give you a precise

22     answer to that.

23        Q.   General, you've now had a chance to look at this.  You're calling

24     the headquarters.  The switchboard identifies you, stupidly.  You get

25     very angry.  It happens two or three times.  And you finally end this

Page 33660

 1     with:  "What a fucking idiot you are.  When I come down there, I'm going

 2     to kill you," because not only did the switchboard blow it but the guy

 3     that he put you on to did something as well.  This is you in this

 4     conversation, is it not?

 5        A.   I'm convinced that I did not participate in that conversation.

 6        Q.   You'll agree with me that your -- the radio discipline of some of

 7     your staff and some of your officers was pretty bad in those days, wasn't

 8     it, in terms of security measures?

 9        A.   You are absolutely right there.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, with your statement, let's go to 13 July, and let's

11     look at what is page 15.  It's D968.  It's -- should be page 15 in the

12     English, 9 in the B/C/S.  And looking at paragraph 52 --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They are both in the English.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  For English, yes.  We need one B/C/S, one English.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 9 B/C/S.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have twice B/C/S.  There we are.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Now, here you're telling us about your communications on the 13th

20     with Major Malinic, who I think everyone remembers is the commander of

21     the MP battalion for the 65th Protection Regiment.  It's in Nova Kasaba

22     at the time.  And that you're talking about some phone calls that you --

23     some communications you had with him.

24             And in 52 you state that later on the same day:

25             "Major Malinic called me a second time.  He said that a large

Page 33661

 1     number of the members of the 28th Division were surrendering and that he

 2     could not offer protect to his men or prisoners?"

 3             That should probably be in English "not offer protection to his

 4     men or the prisoners."

 5             "At the time he had about 15 men."

 6             And then in the next paragraph, we can see that you gave him some

 7     directions and to get some more men.

 8             Now, having that in mind could we go to P1272, something I know

 9     you've seen before.  This is another intercept.  And this is dated from

10     the 13th of July, as we can --

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Also confidential.  Thank you.

12        Q.   We can see that on the front page.  Let's go to the next page in

13     the B/C/S.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, the next page after that.  Should be page

15     3 in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   And if you can take look at that.  And let's turn the page in the

17     B/C/S so you can see --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could turn the page so we can see the

19     entire --

20        Q.   So you can read the entire intercept.  Okay.  So in light of the

21     conversation you said had you with Malinic in your statement about

22     prisoners, we -- at 1405 hours on the 13th, you'd agree with me that

23     that's the time when there's many hundreds of prisoners at the

24     Nova Kasaba football pitch; correct?

25        A.   According to Major Malinic's report, there was a somewhat larger

Page 33662

 1     number of POWs.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, and let's look at this intercept which is this

 3     time identified between X and Y, so unknown speakers.

 4             And X says:  "Where is that?"

 5             And Y says --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, in the B/C/S version, it starts only

 7     the last few lines, so we should go back one page.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please restart.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   So it -- it starts what appears to be in -- after the beginning

12     of this must have been lost, but they here in -- as it starts:

13             "Where is that," X asks.

14             Y says:  "Here at the football."

15             X says:  "Is it visible?"

16             Y says:  "Fuck, it is."

17             X says:  "Brother, don't take anyone.  I'll send you an urgent

18     telegram now, don't take anyone ... a little.  I'll send you the telegram

19     now and explain to you."

20             Y says:  "Go ahead."

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have to move to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to turn to --

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

24        Q.   X says:  "Secure it well, and you'll get it now in the telegram.

25             Y says:  "Fine."

Page 33663

 1             X says:  "Cheers."

 2             Y says:  "I will do nothing before that."

 3             X says:  "Nothing?"

 4             General, is this you speaking to Malinic about the prisoners and

 5     you're telling him you're about to send him a telegram on what to do with

 6     them?

 7        A.   It is highly likely that that conversation involved Malinic and

 8     myself, although there's no proof of that.

 9        Q.   And after all these years, and you've had a chance to think about

10     this, so you think this is -- this is -- this would be you, then, X would

11     be you, Y would be Malinic?

12        A.   We spoke about that on several occasions.  The fact is that we

13     did speak on two occasions on that day.  It's very difficult for me to

14     remember the contents of those conversations, but it is highly likely

15     that it is, indeed, a conversation between the two of us.

16        Q.   X being you; Y being Malinic?

17        A.   Probably.

18        Q.   Well, Malinic wouldn't be issuing you instructions, would he?

19        A.   You're right.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps to add to that, you were not at the

21     football at that time, were you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you're right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So where Y says, "Here at the football," would that

24     allow for the conclusion that if this is Malinic, that Y is Malinic

25     because he was at the football?

Page 33664

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.  Or he was very close to

 2     the football pitch.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go back to your statement, D968, page 16 now in

 6     the English, page 9 in the B/C/S.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's paragraph 56 I want to look at.

 8        Q.   And here, you were saying:  "I was shown proof, P168."

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, for the record, Mr. President, this is

10     Mladic, P1558, and this is the document, I'll soon have it up on the

11     board, that we will hopefully all remember to be the 13 July proposal

12     that comes out in Mr. Savcic's name dated 13 July, related to the

13     prisoners at Nova Kasaba.

14        Q.   And you say:  "According to its contents, this document can be

15     considered as a military document - telegram."

16             So we have now seen the conversation between you and Malinic

17     where you tell him you're going to be sending him a telegram about the

18     subject matter of the conversation, the prisoners mainly.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have this document on the screen, P1558.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I wish I had two screens, but it would be

21     helpful to have that one to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  What you would like to have on the other one?  The

23     statement.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ideally the statement, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We all have a -- yes, we leave it in your hands when

Page 33665

 1     you want to switch from one to the other, but we have, of course, the

 2     statement, and the witness has the statement before him.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think and that's -- I probably have this

 5     document etched in my head, but let's get it on the screen because I

 6     don't always trust what's etched in my head.  So, yes, P1558.

 7        Q.   And we see that this is the IKM 65th Motorised

 8     Protection Regiment Borike, 1400 hours, and I'll remind everyone that the

 9     P1272, the conversation between you and Malinic, was noted by the

10     2nd Corps at 1405 hours, same date.  This is entitled: "Procedure for

11     Treatment of War Prisoners."  And we can see that it's to the commander

12     of the Main Staff, who we agree is Mladic, for his information.  And then

13     to the assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs who

14     I'm sure you'll agree is General Gvero, for his information, and the

15     commander of the military police battalion of the

16     65th Protection Regiment, who I'm sure you'll agree is Major Malinic.

17     And it talks about in the beginning there are over 1.000 members of the

18     former 28th Division of the so-called BiH army captured in the area of

19     Dusanovo, Kasaba, the prisoners are under the control of the military

20     police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment.

21             Let's go to the next page in the English.  And we can all see

22     that it's from Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.

23             Now, Colonel -- excuse me, General, getting back to your

24     statement, you refer to this document in paragraph 56 as a telegram, and

25     you have acknowledged the conversation to -- happened at about the same

Page 33666

 1     time that this -- of the date on the top of this telegram, and time at

 2     the top of the telegram.  And then you go on and say in paragraph 56:

 3             "In its form, it is absolutely unacceptable.  There is no number

 4     and it is not signed.  It is very disputable in that respect.  It just

 5     sounds incredible to me that a communications operation dared to process,

 6     encode, and forward such a document.  This procedure is strictly

 7     regulated and registers must know who sent the telegram, without any

 8     doubt."

 9             But then if we go to next page, page 16 in English, page 10 in

10     the B/C/S, looking at paragraph 60, it says, referring to the same

11     document:

12             "The document says that it conveys a message from an assistant

13     commander for intelligence and security of the VRS.  This was the post of

14     General Tolimir.  I do not remember the general forwarding this document

15     to me, but I can't [sic] rule it out as a possibility.  If he had, it was

16     of no importance to me and it is highly likely that I would not remember

17     it if I were asked about it for the first time ten years later."

18             Now, Mr. Stojanovic said in the summary that, when speaking of

19     this document, without going into the authentication of the document, you

20     talk about it.  But what I want to ask you about is:  Here you referred

21     to the document as unacceptable, in paragraph 56, and seem to be

22     challenging it, but then you go on to say that you can't rule it out.

23             So I'm asking you about authenticity now.  What is your position?

24     Is this an authentic document?

25        A.   As I've already stated -- you're an experienced attorney, you

Page 33667

 1     have been working for a number of years, I don't know what your attitude

 2     is towards a document which is not signed, which has not been recorded,

 3     so I have my doubts about it.

 4             Your question was a bit broader.  But for example, in the

 5     document in the heading thereof, it says that it was drafted at the IKM

 6     of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  If you look at the rules and

 7     if you see what an IKM implies, you will see that there was no IKM there.

 8     So this information is incorrect also.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are repeating what is in your statement

10     already.  The simple question was whether you are in a position to say

11     that this document is an authentic document or not or that are you not in

12     a position to confirm that or to deny that.  All the rest is argument,

13     conclusions, opinion.  Do you know or do you not know whether this is an

14     authentic document?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm the authenticity,

16     but I also cannot say that it is not.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.  You have no final -- you can't

18     for a fact confirm that this is an original document, neither can you

19     deny, that it is.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'll just have a couple of clarifying

22     questions on this.  I do have the original document, which is -- the

23     witness knows came from the Drina Corps collection, if anyone would like

24     to see it.  We -- I may ask a question or two about it, and I would like

25     the witness to have it before him for the questions.

Page 33668

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I would like to see it before it is given

 2     to the witness.  So does Mr. Stojanovic.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question.

 5             I would like to show the original document to General Mladic.

 6     Can I -- do I have your leave to do that, please?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.  The accused will have access to the

 8     original document as well.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   You just said back on page 31 about what an IKM implies and

12     that -- you said:

13             "... you will see that there was no," I think you meant, "IKM

14     there.  So this information is incorrect also."

15             Let me briefly go to 65 ter 32250.  This is a transcript of our

16     interview many years ago, back in 2005.  Should be page 29 in e-court in

17     the English and page 43 in the B/C/S.  And we are talking about this

18     document.  And I say to you:

19             "Okay.  So, I really -- I need you to help me with this.  You

20     think this is a document that was created falsely and placed in the Drina

21     archives [sic]?  Or is it something ..."

22             And your answer is:

23             "I doubt it was falsified.  I mean, to be honest, I don't know.

24     I am closer to the truth if I say that this is authentic document, but if

25     you allow me, I really, I can't remember ..."

Page 33669

 1             Do you stand by this statement, especially the part about to be

 2     closer to the truth that it's authentic?

 3        A.   No, I was not really saying definitively that it's not authentic

 4     and I'm not 100 per cent sure either that it's a forgery.  There are

 5     nuances to my answer.

 6        Q.   General, my question wasn't very nuanced.  Do you stand by what

 7     you told me.  It's right in front of you on the screen?

 8        A.   I just said that a moment ago.  You will agree that the first

 9     time I saw that document in 2003.  The first answer does not always have

10     to be the best answer, especially if you treat the person as a suspect.

11     He sometimes answer in not exactly the best way.

12        Q.   Fair enough.  And that's why I asked you:  Do you stand by your

13     answer when you said, "I doubt it was falsified"?  That particular part.

14     Do you stand by that?  To this day, do you still doubt it was falsified?

15        A.   Well, I said a moment ago I can't confirm either way.  I don't

16     understand why you keep asking me the same question 100 times.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- finally the Chamber will determine

18     whether or not it's an authentic document.  I think there's a slight

19     difference with what you said when you were interviewed.

20             If I understood your words well, you said at the time that you

21     considered it more likely that it was authentic, although you do not know

22     for sure, than you considered it likely it to be a forgery.

23             Do you stand by what you said then, that you considered it more

24     likely to be authentic than to be a forgery?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand behind what I said earlier

Page 33670

 1     today.  I think it's closer to the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, earlier today you said you don't know.  And

 3     when -- because you say "I can neither confirm nor deny."  Well, that's

 4     the same in your previous statement.  In the previous statement, however,

 5     you express yourself on the likelihood of it being authentic or -- it

 6     being a forgery.  Do you still stand by the -- what you said at the time

 7     as it being more likely to be authentic than to be a forgery?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know what to answer.

 9     If I say that I stand behind what I said earlier today, and that it's

10     closer to the truth, these are very small nuances.  Even back then I

11     didn't guarantee it was either falsified or authentic.  I don't remember

12     drafting that document and I don't believe that anyone forged it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You are skillfully evading to answer the question.

14     The question is whether you still, as you expressed at the time, apart

15     from not being able to say whether it's authentic or not, whether you

16     still today stand behind your statement given then, that you consider it

17     more likely than not to be authentic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered a moment ago that it was

19     my first answer to that question, and it might not have been the best.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Please let's move on, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Absolutely.

22        Q.   I do want to keep reading down here a bit because we -- you

23     started talking about the IKM issue that you just -- I just mentioned to

24     you.

25             I say on line 7:

Page 33671

 1             "Let's go over it a little bit," meaning the document?

 2             You tell me to go ahead.

 3             And I say:

 4             "It says IKM Borike at 1400 hours.  And you already told us that

 5     this was the period of time, there is an IKM at Borike and that's where

 6     you are."

 7             And then you say:

 8             "IKM is where the commander is, so if I were there that's called

 9     forward command post."

10             And then I say:

11             "Right.  So we know such a thing exists?"

12             And you say:

13             "That's for sure.  I'm there."

14             So that's quite a bit different from your comment about the

15     forward command post that you just made under oath, which is the -- which

16     is correct?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you're creating confusion.  Because

18     the witness today also says that he was there but there was no IKM.  So

19     you should split up that clearly when you say was it true what you said

20     at the time, because to some extent it is the same and to some extent it

21     is not the same.  So you should clearly identify exactly what you're

22     seeking the witness to confirm or not.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   All I'm concerned about -- we all know you were there, it's not

25     an issue.  You said that you contested that there was an IKM there, and

Page 33672

 1     in this one you're confirming there is.  Is there or is there not an IKM

 2     at Borike at the time?

 3        A.   At Borike, no IKM of the regiment had been developed but I was

 4     there, and I'm not disputing that for a moment.  If you look at the

 5     extract from the rules and the concept of the IKM, you will see that one

 6     person cannot make up an IKM regardless of whether he was a commander or

 7     a member of the command.  And precisely for that reason, that I was alone

 8     and had no assistants with me, I dispute that it was an IKM as defined by

 9     the rules.  Nothing else.  So I'm not disputing for a moment that I was

10     there.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, here again in the statement we find

12     not "forward command post" but -- not "forward command post" but a

13     "formal forward command post," the formal IKM.  It seems that the witness

14     is saying according to the rules, he now says, and apparently he was

15     there, that's clear, there's now a word play of whether if the IKM was

16     formally there in accordance with the rules or not, or whether the

17     witness, as he said at the time, if the commander is there, there's an

18     IKM, but he didn't add to that that it would be a formal IKM.

19             We are playing with words at this moment and I think that it

20     doesn't assist us greatly.  It's relatively clear, I think, that the

21     witness is withdrawing that there was a formal IKM, and that all in the

22     context of apparently an argument about the authenticity of a document

23     which clear says IKM.  That's apparently the issue.

24             I'd suggest that we not stay too long with this.

25             Please proceed.

Page 33673

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, it's the Prosecution's position

 2     that this is a very important document.  And I'm making my best effort to

 3     identify the very few factors he has used to undercut this document.

 4     That's all I'm doing.  But perhaps --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may proceed.  Also the Chamber -- what I

 6     expressed just a minute ago, I did it as Presiding Judge of this Chamber,

 7     but it might not be fully agreed by all of my colleagues, which means

 8     that you can proceed as you consider appropriate.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I actually agree with everything you said,

10     Mr. President.  I just -- the emphasis is slightly different is all.

11             So -- and I think we can resolve it if I can just put this one

12     page of the interview in evidence and the -- that issue can be resolved.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you uploaded this one page?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, we have the whole thing, of course, but we'll

15     get that fixed up so we just get the one page.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could a number be reserved for it?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will MFI P7266, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P7266 is marked for identification.

19             Apparently Mr. Stojanovic is still consulting.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. McCloskey has just tendered the one page of

21     the interview the witness gave at the time.  I hear of no objections.

22             So once it's uploaded it -- that page is admitted.

23             Please proceed.

24             No loud speaking.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 33674

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  If we could go to P3467.  Should be

 3     page 13.

 4        Q.   And this is the transcript of the evidence of a cryptographer

 5     from the Rogatica Brigade that is in evidence in this case as 92 bis.

 6     His name is Danko Gojkovic.  And General, you remember perhaps talking to

 7     Mr. Nicholls in cross-examination about the evidence of Danko Gojkovic.

 8     Do you recall who Danko Gojkovic is and his evidence about the person

 9     that actually sent this document via teletype?

10        A.   I remember the conversation with Mr. Nicholls and my answers to

11     his questions regarding the encryptor.  The name Danko Gojkovic is a name

12     I heard many years later when this document was first shown to me.

13        Q.   All right.  And, for the record, the P125 mentioned there is --

14     is the document we're talking about which, sorry, has left my head.

15     P1558.

16             And if we could to the next page after glancing at that first

17     page.  I'll -- I'm sorry, I'll get the question -- the end of the

18     question.

19             "The document that you're looking at right now, 125, what kind

20     of -- we see that is a -- we see typeface on this.  What kind of machine

21     did this document in your view?

22             "In my opinion a typewriter."

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could that be enlarged.  Thank you.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   "Q. And did you have anything to do with this document?

Page 33675

 1             "A. No.

 2             "Q. What I mean by that is:  Do you recognise any writing you did

 3     on this document?

 4             "A. Yes, I wrote that I transmitted it at 1510 hours on the 13th

 5     of July, 1995.

 6             "Q. And is that an original inked signature of yours in the

 7     bottom left-hand corner underneath that information you just gave us?

 8             "A. Yes.

 9             "Q. And did you sometimes use a typewriter in injure job in 1995?

10             "A. No.

11             "Q. Did you have access to a typewriter around the command

12     anywhere [sic]?

13             "A. There was certainly typewriter at the command.  But where I

14     worked, no."

15             Going to the next page.  And I won't take the time to read all

16     that out.  You can take a look at it.  It mentions your name.  He doesn't

17     have an explanation why there's no signature.  And he can't explain --

18     well, I'll read that question:

19             "There's also no strictly confidential number and it's, as we can

20     see, not in the typical form of -- that we've seen from the other

21     teleprinter documents.  Can you explain that?"

22             And he says:

23             "I don't know.  I can't explain it.  If we only had this same

24     document typed on a teleprinter with a number on it, or perhaps I made a

25     telephone call to find out the number.  If we had a teleprinter version

Page 33676

 1     of this document, we would see perhaps a number, or perhaps it was sent

 2     simply like this, without a number.

 3             "Q. But the fact that you have signed and written 'delivered' on

 4     this, does that indicate that you actually typed this into the

 5     teleprinter and sent it?

 6             "A. Yes, yes."

 7             Do you have any reason to believe any of this material is not

 8     correct, this information provided by this witness?

 9        A.   I have no reason to doubt anything.  But as far as I remember,

10     this witness stated further on that he had no guarantee whatsoever that I

11     had drafted those documents.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please refrain from giving

13     information you're not asked for.  The simple question was whether you

14     have any fact to your knowledge that this witness was not telling the

15     truth, and then, of course, on the portion read to you, and apparently

16     you have not.  You could have left it to that.  We are not in a debating

17     club here.  We are in a court of law.

18             Please proceed -- well, I'm looking at the clock.  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's a good time to break if it's break time.  I

20     will get organised and I --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's approximately --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- shouldn't be much longer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's approximately break time.

24             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

25     back after the break.  You may now follow the usher.

Page 33677

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We wait for the witness to be escorted into the

 7     courtroom.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, if I could introduce a new

 9     member of our team, Cody Corliss.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome in this courtroom.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.  I do understand that

14     you've used two-thirds of your time, until now.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   If we could go back to your statement.  It's D968.  Paragraph 60.

17     I just want to read out and remind us of something you said about this --

18     about the document 1558.  And in speaking of the -- of the document, you

19     basically say that:

20             "I do not remember the general forwarding this document to me,"

21     and you mean by that General Tolimir, as we can see, "but I cannot

22     rule it out as a possibility.  If he had, it was of no importance to me

23     and it is highly likely that I would not remember it if I were asked

24     about it for the first time ten years later."

25             So bearing in mind your comment here that this document would not

Page 33678

 1     have been any of importance to you even had Tolimir done this -- let's go

 2     back to the document, P1558.  And we've already noted, and I'm sure

 3     you'll agree with me, that in the title there's a specific mention of --

 4     to General Mladic, General Gvero, and Major Malinic.  And we see on the

 5     second paragraph of the document that the assistant commander for

 6     security and intelligence affairs proposes the following.  So we have

 7     Mladic, Gvero, Malinic, and now Tolimir is making a proposal.

 8             If we go not next page in English.  And it says once the

 9     commander of the military police battalion receives this order, he should

10     contact General Miletic and receive from him additional orders.

11             So we now have General Miletic, who I'm sure you'll agree with

12     me, was the assistant commander for operations and training from the

13     Main Staff.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So in a short one-page document entitled:  "Procedure for the

16     Treatment of War Prisoners" that has to do with a thousand prisoners

17     captured in one day, we have all of these men.  Is there anyone at the

18     Main Staff that's more important than Mladic, Gvero, Miletic, and

19     Tolimir?  Aside from Milovanovic who was in the Krajina.

20        A.   Is that a question?

21        Q.   Yeah.

22        A.   Well, that's the commander, two assistants -- no, one assistant,

23     and the chief of operations.

24        Q.   My question was:  Is there anybody more important than that in

25     the Main Staff than that crew?

Page 33679

 1        A.   In the hierarchy, we know the commander is the most important,

 2     and the chief of logistics is the number two, if the logistics post

 3     exists.  In our case, we had no chief of logistics.  The Deputy Chief of

 4     Staff was not there, so there is no other person in that hierarchy.

 5        Q.   So given the subject matter of this document and the people

 6     involved in it, do you stand by your statement that even if he had --

 7     even if he did give this to you, it would be of no importance to you?

 8        A.   It wouldn't be of any importance.  It was not the first or the

 9     last time we had prisoners of war and that appropriate measures had to be

10     taken.  This content does not indicate anything to me except the taking

11     of measures listed here.

12        Q.   And you agree with me by the end of the day, 16 July, all the

13     prisoners from the Nova Kasaba soccer field, save a couple of survivors,

14     were -- had been summarily executed and were lying dead?

15        A.   I did not know that for many years that followed, but what I can

16     guarantee is that at least in the beginning they were captured or

17     surrendered themselves in a completely spontaneous action, without any

18     prior order.  In Kasaba there was a battalion of the police that had

19     about 10 or 15 soldiers in that area at the time --

20        Q.   Excuse me, General, were they all dead, the guys from the Kasaba

21     field?  Were they all dead by the evening of the 16th, murdered?

22        A.   I didn't know that for a long, long time.  And to confirm that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one asked you what you knew at the time.

24     Mr. McCloskey is seeking your answer to his question whether you know now

25     that they were all summarily executed in the following days, apart from a

Page 33680

 1     few survivors.  Is -- do you challenge that?  Do you dispute that?  Or do

 2     you acknowledge that that happened?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't challenge that now.

 4     Because, unfortunately, it happened.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And if we could go to paragraph 3,

 7     the previous page in the English.

 8        Q.   I just -- I don't want to spend a lot of time with this document

 9     but I do want to ask you about one issue.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could blow up paragraph 3.

11        Q.   And, here we see that it says:

12             "The commander of the military police battalion shall take

13     measures to remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road, place

14     them somewhere indoors or in the area protected from sighting from the

15     ground or the air."

16             Okay.  Now, I'm particularly interested in the reference to

17     putting them in a place where they were protected from sighting from the

18     air.  You, in your statement, give some explanations of these various

19     paragraphs.  And let's now go back to your statement -- or I can just

20     read it very slowly.  It's paragraph 73:

21             "At the time, there was a constant threat of NATO air strikes,

22     and a large group of men might be mixed up with a tactical group and thus

23     attacked from the air.  That is why there was a logical reason for the

24     recommendation to take prisoners to a location where they could not be

25     seen from the air."

Page 33681

 1             General, are you really saying that a group of many hundreds of

 2     men could be mistaken for a Serbian tactical group or a tactical group of

 3     some sort and bombed by NATO from the air?

 4        A.   I really want to tell you this and to remind you of some

 5     practical examples that happened in 1999 in Kosovo when columns of

 6     refugees were bombed, large numbers of people.  I believe the pilots did

 7     it by mistake without intending to hurt civilians, like when they bombed

 8     the train.  So this danger was absolutely impossible to rule out, and in

 9     practice such things happened.

10        Q.   So you really think that this -- keeping them out of sight from

11     NATO from the air was to protect these Muslims from a possible attack by

12     NATO?  Really?

13        A.   I really believe that.  That's one of the reasons.  And the first

14     reason is that that number of men was secured, guarded by 10 or 15

15     soldiers.  And anyone who thinks it can be done safely for those who are

16     doing the guarding, especially at night-time, has got it very wrong.

17     They should not have been left there in the first place, because a

18     completely different situation is then being created.  A thousand or more

19     people, you imagine the percentage, the ratio.

20             So what you are putting to me is not the main reason.  It's one

21     of the reasons why people were removed from that area.

22        Q.   Thank you, General.  And, in fact, after their -- after they

23     spent the afternoon and early evening on that football pitch, they were

24     all put either in vehicles or in buildings where they could not be seen

25     from the air.  You've learned that from your investigation.

Page 33682

 1        A.   Not only for them to be seen from the air but also to be moved to

 2     some enclosed space where they could be better guarded.  But it was not

 3     just my unit who did it.  When you put a question to me, you always omit

 4     something like in the sentence where you talk about the treatment of

 5     prisoners of war.  Where it says Major Miletic had to talk to the

 6     commander.  So it's not that Miletic approved something.  This is all

 7     about protecting prisoners of war and moving them into the facilities

 8     that -- where they could be controlled.

 9             I would not act differently today.  I would have to move those

10     people somewhere.  I stated here that one of the main reasons was the

11     fact that in 1992 -- from 1992 to January 1993, there were over 1500 Serb

12     victims in that area.  It was a blood bath.  So there was an imminent

13     threat of retaliation for that.

14        Q.   Yes, General, and I agree with you.  This wasn't just your unit

15     or one unit that was putting these people where they couldn't be seen

16     from the air.  These were several units.  And as you said, Malinic would

17     have had to speak to the commander, and the commander that would have

18     overseen and organised all this, there were two of them, weren't there;

19     General Krstic and General Ratko Mladic?  These are the guys that

20     organised making sure these people couldn't be seen from NATO?

21        A.   You keep on insisting on the visibility from the air.  I'm not

22     denying that that was one of the measures and one of the reasons.

23     However, I would like to emphasise that there were other measures that

24     impacted that decision.

25        Q.   Co-ordinated and commanded by Krstic and Mladic and other unit

Page 33683

 1     commanders; correct?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I was not in the area.  I did not have a single

 3     encounter either with Krstic or Mladic.  Therefore, I can't confirm your

 4     allegation.

 5        Q.   When was the next time from your investigation and knowledge of

 6     the case that we could see Muslim men from Srebrenica from the air?

 7        A.   Who do you mean, specifically?  There were several groups there.

 8     Some groups were visible all the time until they broke through to the

 9     territory under the control of the 2nd Corps.

10        Q.   I'm talking about the prisoners.  When was the next time you

11     could see any prisoners from the air after they were all put in buses and

12     vehicles on the 13th of July?  And buildings.

13        A.   Believe me, I'm not aware of those details.  I would only be

14     speculating if I told what I thought about that; i.e., when was that

15     possible again.

16        Q.   Do you remember seeing the aerial image of Branjevo farm dated

17     17 July that shows many, many hundreds of corpses on the ground?

18        A.   I don't remember that image.  My investigation focused on the

19     sources of knowledge as to what had happened there.  I simply did not

20     have the time to deal with anything else or to use other documents.  I

21     don't even know whether that image was ever made available to me.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I'll find the exhibit number for

23     that.

24        Q.   But let's go on to another topic, and I want to go back to your

25     statement again, D968.  It's paragraph 82, so it should be on page 23 of

Page 33684

 1     the English, but -- great with the paragraph numbering.  Thank you.

 2             And here you are talking about a document from General Mladic on

 3     the 25th of July, which I'm really not interested in, though I think we

 4     may recall that it has to do with a security measures along the road and

 5     other places.  And then you state:

 6             "Since none of the prisoners from Zepa were liquidated, this

 7     confirms my conviction that the order of 13 July, 1995, has nothing to do

 8     with the plan to liquidate prisoners."

 9             What I want to concentrate on is your conclusion that since none

10     of the prisoners from Zepa were liquidated, you've already agreed with me

11     that Avdo Palic was murdered after being arrested by the VRS, so this

12     statement's not correct, is it?

13        A.   I left Mr. Avdo Palic alive and well in Zepa.  I had no reason to

14     suspect that he had been killed.  As I've already told you, that happened

15     a few months later, i.e., that didn't happen during the operation in

16     Zepa.

17        Q.   It's a simple question.  General, it's a simple question.  I'm

18     not blaming you or accusing you.  But you -- at the time you made this

19     statement for the Karadzic team, you concluded that no one from Zepa was

20     liquidated.  You know, as you've already said, the commander was.  So

21     that was not a correct statement you made in your statement?

22        A.   He was not killed during the operation.  After that, later I did

23     not think, unfortunately, I did not --

24        Q.   General, you're not answering my question.

25        A.   You have answered my question, so I have nothing to add.

Page 33685

 1        Q.   Can you acknowledge, sir, that your statement that I've just read

 2     out to you about nobody being liquidated from Zepa is incorrect?  Yes or

 3     no?  Correct or not correct?

 4        A.   It is correct, up to the time -- the end of the time I was in

 5     Zepa, which is --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the date.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to what I know, nobody

 8     was liquidated during that time before I left Zepa.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 5787, very briefly.

10        Q.   Sir, this is an aerial image that we received from the

11     United States.  The information in black and white are the conclusions

12     from the United States.  Did you see this photograph?  Have you seen this

13     photograph before?

14        A.   No.  And as hard as I may try, I really didn't discern a thing in

15     this photo.  The only thing I can actually discern or read is the title.

16        Q.   Certainly you read evidence of the survivors of the Branjevo farm

17     massacre.

18        A.   I read statements by potential witnesses.  I needed to look at

19     their statements and read what they said about what had happened.  We

20     were preparing to interview those witnesses.  We also read those

21     statements that we needed.  I can't remember -- I suppose that I did read

22     some of the survivors' statements.

23        Q.   Do you agree with me that some people were summarily executed at

24     the Branjevo Military Farm?

25        A.   According to the witnesses' statements, yes.

Page 33686

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, you were half on your feet.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

 5             Just one sentence.  I believe that after these answers provided

 6     by the witness, this document cannot be tendered and admitted through

 7     this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And you may remember that this week's conversation

 9     with Mr. Ivetic, it relates to, and is there any objection against it

10     being admitted not necessarily through this witness but in relation with

11     this witness's evidence?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

13     We are taking account of that.  We want to be consistent in our

14     objections and reasons for them.  You are the dominus litis, the decision

15     is yours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, as a matter of fact, I reminded you to

17     Mr. Ivetic's -- he tendered a document this week, so whether it's so

18     consistent or not, I leave that alone for the time being.

19             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7267, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P7267 is admitted.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Now can we have 65 ter 32338.

23        Q.   Going back to your statement that no one from Zepa was

24     liquidated.  What you'll soon be seeing on the screen is DNA notification

25     list that we have from the international commission for Missing Persons,

Page 33687

 1     and we have --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it correct that this kind of list should not

 3     be broadcast?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  At this --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Or this is a different one?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Out of abundance of caution, that's a good

 7     reminder.  I'm not sure all the victims have been identified.  The ones I

 8     do know have been but there's some I don't know, so that's a very good

 9     point.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, not to be shown.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Sir, I can tell you there's nine separate individuals here.  We

13     see Avdo Palic listed several times because that's different cases,

14     usually different body parts.  But did you know, for example, one person

15     who I can tell you about Mehmed Hajric, he was the -- a religious leader

16     from Zepa, was found in a mass grave with Avdo Palic, did you know he had

17     been murdered?

18        A.   No, please.  While I was in Zepa, I did not receive information

19     about anyone even being taken prisoner.  You're now misusing my position

20     as an investigator and the information that I obtained over a long period

21     of time.  At that time, I did not have a single piece of information

22     about the existence of a single prisoner of war there.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness, could I just intervene.  You say

24     Mr. McCloskey is misusing your position as an investigator.  May I remind

25     you that you come up in this statement with knowledge which, as you

Page 33688

 1     explained to us now, is obtained as an investigator in order to support

 2     your convictions.  And if then questions are asked about that, don't

 3     blame Mr. McCloskey for asking further questions on what you introduced

 4     yourself, as we now understand, on the basis of your investigative

 5     function.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Did you know that a civilian representative, Amir Imamovic, was

 9     taken prisoner by the VRS forces in the Zepa campaign?

10        A.   No name rings a bell.  I don't know these people.  I don't know

11     what happened to any of them at the time when things were happening.

12        Q.   Well, these people were all found in a mass grave on the

13     outskirts of Rogatica, and what do you know about the mass grave and how

14     Avdo Palic and these other victims ended up there?

15        A.   As for the mass grave and how Avdo Palic and others ended up

16     there, I know nothing whatsoever about that.  Absolutely nothing.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer that into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7268 under seal, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7268 is admitted, under seal.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Two more document, General.  First one --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, because you're -- I think earlier I

24     said you are two-thirds, you are close to the time you asked for or even

25     beyond that, but...

Page 33689

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One more document --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes left.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   One more document, General.  65 ter 26038.  And if we could go to

 6     page 5 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

 7             Sir, as we'll see from the Serbian document that's related to

 8     this, this is an aide-memoire from the Netherlands government to

 9     Republika Srpska asking for information about 239 refugees from

10     Srebrenica that were on a list that Ibro Nuhanovic and others put

11     together from the able-bodied men that were in Potocari.  This is dated

12     the 18th of February, 1997, when you were chief of security.

13             Now, if we could go to the first page of this in both.  This

14     aide-memoire was part of a packet of material, and a document from

15     General Tolimir, which we'll see at page 4 in a bit.  And it's to the

16     Security Administration of the VRS, to Colonel Savcic personally.  That's

17     you; correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Tell us what you know about this.

20        A.   As I've already stated during the Tolimir trial, I saw the

21     document for the first time then.  I know nothing about the allegations

22     in the document.  I claim that I had not seen it before, that it hadn't

23     been shown to me at the Security Administration.

24        Q.   What was Tolimir's position at the time?

25        A.   Believe me, I wouldn't be able tell you with any degree of

Page 33690

 1     precision.  It was not fully defined.  I see that he was in communication

 2     with the president of the republic, that he provided some information to

 3     her.  He was not my superior.  I did not receive any documents from him.

 4     Therefore, I could not act on any of the documents that I didn't receive.

 5        Q.   Let's go to page 3 in the English; B/C/S page 1.  We see here

 6     that General Tolimir is concerned.  It says:

 7             "In my opinion the Muslim government wants to legalise through

 8     the Dutch embassy the list of 239 refugees."

 9             Then goes on in the next paragraph:

10             "I suggest that the legalization of this list ..."

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Might have to turn the page in the Serbian.

12        Q.   "... not be allowed both for legal reasons and because it was

13     compiled from Mr. Nuhanovic's memory and because anyone could have been

14     included, even people who had been evacuated in an organised manner or

15     had gone missing prior to the evacuation during combat operations."

16             He goes on in the next paragraph:

17             "I also propose that no written answer concerning this matter be

18     sent to the Dutch embassy or government or any other international

19     organisation [sic] or institutions which might try to obtain something in

20     writing."

21             He goes on to say in the next paragraph:

22             "Under no circumstances should any requests regarding this

23     document be replied in writing, regardless of the content..."

24             And at the end it says:

25             "I suggest that the chief of the General Staff be informed of

Page 33691

 1     this document."

 2             You were the chief of security at this time.  Why on earth would

 3     you not respond?  Why would Tolimir not -- why would he recommend your

 4     government it would not respond to such a -- such an aide-memoire from

 5     the Netherlands?

 6        A.   You should ask General Tolimir that.  It is easy to see that

 7     there was no correspondence between the General Staff and the government

 8     of the Netherlands.  As I've already said, I did not see that document

 9     before.  At the General Staff, we didn't know anything about that.  At

10     the time, we had other major internal issues to deal with, but I don't

11     think that this Tribunal would find any of those either important or

12     interesting.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I offer this document into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7269, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And nothing further.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any further questions in ...

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

22        Q.   I would like to thank Mr. Savcic for his answers on behalf of the

23     General Mladic Defence team.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Savcic, I've one question.  You were an

Page 33692

 1     investigator in the Karadzic case, I do understand.  Who took this

 2     statement?  Because usually we find the name of the person who

 3     interviewed the person who gave the statement.  Who interviewed you?

 4        A.   My statement?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the statement which we received in evidence,

 6     your statement with the many paragraphs which we looked at several times.

 7     That is, the statement --

 8        A.   The investigator Furtula.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't -- that's the name of the investigator,

10     yes.  Because it doesn't say there anything.

11        A.   Furtula is his family name, and his first name is Milomir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  Have the one question by the Bench

13     trigged need for further questions?  It was a very short question.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.  I just would like to let you

15     know that the excerpt from the OTP interview with Mr. Savcic has been

16     uploaded into e-court under 65 ter 32250b.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the number had already been reserved for

18     it?  Mr. Registrar, could you confirm that?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  [Overlapping speakers]... P7266, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And in the absence of any objections, P7266 is

21     admitted into evidence.

22             Mr. Savcic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way

23     to The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you,

24     put to you by parties, put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return

25     home again.

Page 33693

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 4             Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The witness's

 6     name is Nedjo Jovicic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the

 8     courtroom.

 9             Meanwhile, I use the time.  I just ... I briefly deal with one of

10     the issues still related to Witness Krcmar, D917.

11             On the 26th of February of this year, D917, a video, was marked

12     for identification.  The Defence indicated that it was tendering only the

13     parts that were, and I quote, "transcribed and translated."

14             When asked if it was also only tendering the excerpts of the

15     video that were shown in court, the Defence stated that it had not shown

16     the entire video.  This can be found on transcript pages 32369

17     through -370.

18             Has the Defence meanwhile compiled the selection of sequences it

19     wishes to tender?

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  We marked through the transcript which parts we want

22     to tender, and do you want us to cut out the video material as well?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be -- that would be best.  But if

24     you have not done that, if you would do that, well, let's say, this --

25     the coming week, is that?

Page 33694

 1             MR. LUKIC:  If you order so, Your Honour, we would do that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because, of course, we'd like to have the

 3     relevant video and the relevant --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Well, it won't be hard since I think that in -- in

 5     the transcript we have marked exact time from when -- where to where we

 6     want to rely on that video.  It will be done as you ordered.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it it's not a major effort to do that.  If it

 8     would -- I mean, if I cut video --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  For me, it's because -- since I don't know how to do

10     it.  Probably for some more knowledgeable people, it wouldn't be --

11     [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I can't say that I never did it in my life,

13     and it wasn't a major operation.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd like to hear from you, well, let's say,

16     within the next -- within seven days from now.

17             Good afternoon, Witness.  Before you give evidence, the Rules of

18     Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration.  The

19     text of that solemn declaration is now handed out to you.  And I would

20     invite you, Mr. Jovicic, to make that solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  NEDJO JOVICIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Jovicic.

Page 33695

 1     Mr. Jovicic, you'll first be examined by --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

 4     find Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.

 5     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jovicic.  Would you kindly

 9     tell us, slowly, your full name.

10        A.   Nedjo Jovicic.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is very far away from the

12     microphone.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you give -- did you give a statement to the Defence team of

15     General Mladic in writing in response to questions that were put to you?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

18     in e-court 65 ter 1D01764.

19        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, you see on the screen before you the cover page of

20     this document and a signature on it.  Do you recognise the signature?

21        A.   Yes, it's mine.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page.

24        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, on the last page of this document, you see a

25     signature and a date in handwriting.  Do you recognise the signature?

Page 33696

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Whose is it?

 3        A.   Mine.

 4        Q.   Is the date also written in your hand?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And today, after making the solemn declaration in this courtroom,

 7     if I were to put to you the same questions as then, would you give

 8     identical answers and would these answers be truthful and accurate?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

11     tender the statement of Witness Nedjo Jovicic, 1D01764.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you have an opportunity to review that

14     statement briefly before you came to this courtroom?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And you stand all by what is said in this statement.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D976, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D976 is admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, you're attestation was a bit shorter than it

22     usually is.  That's the reason why I put an additional question to the

23     witness.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

Page 33697

 1     should read the summary of this witness's statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] When the war broke out,

 4     Witness Nedjo Jovicic was a student of dentistry.  During the years of

 5     the war, he joined the special police brigade of the MUP of

 6     Republika Srpska, working as a driver of the then-deputy of brigade

 7     commander.  He testifies that on 11 July 1995, following orders, he went

 8     to Bratunac where he met with his superiors, and he describes his

 9     movements on that day.

10             On 12 July 1995, early in the morning, they headed for Potocari

11     in a vehicle.  Before coming into Potocari, they noticed General Mladic

12     on their left.  On the orders of his superior, whom he was driving, they

13     stopped that morning and went towards General Mladic.  He remembers that

14     at that time General Mladic started yelling and swearing, telling them

15     they were thieves, and then he told the witness's superior that his unit

16     should go to Potocari on a police mission, whereas another part of the

17     unit should go to Zvornik because he, Mladic, had information that a

18     large group of Muslims was moving towards Zvornik.

19             He describes the situation in Potocari as he remembers it.  The

20     behaviour of General Mladic, the distribution of bread and tinned food to

21     the people gathered there, and he testifies that General Mladic insisted

22     that all the food and juice be handed out to people.  He did not see that

23     anyone from Mladic's entourage threatened anybody or asked them to leave

24     the area.

25             The next day after, they took into their vehicle a reporter and a

Page 33698

 1     cameraman nicknamed Pirocanac.  They went again to Potocari and then took

 2     the road towards Konjevic Polje.  While they were in Sandici village,

 3     General Mladic with his escorts came by and stopped by a group of

 4     prisoners.  He addressed them, saying that their wives and children are

 5     being transported as they speak towards Kladanj and Tuzla and that they

 6     would be transported too.

 7             Then he testifies about his personal view of the situation

 8     outside the Kravica warehouse.  He testifies about how he took his

 9     injured commander of the special police brigade to the health centre in

10     Bratunac, and how he returned to the warehouse, and describes his

11     experience and knowledge about what happened that afternoon in front of

12     the warehouse.

13             On the next day, he was engaged in his regular activities,

14     driving his superior, among other things, to the panorama point in

15     Zvornik.  And that afternoon, he escorted Miroslav Deronjic to Pale from

16     where they returned the same night, and then the next day went to

17     Zvornik, and together with a unit engaged in fighting with the column of

18     the 28th Division of the BH Army.

19             And that would be the short summary.

20             Now I have a few questions for the witness.  Could we look at

21     paragraph 22 of his statement.  It is now D976.

22        Q.   You will see that paragraph before you, Mr. Jovicic.  You

23     describe your recollection of the situation in Potocari on 12 July, and I

24     want to ask you:  Do you remember any members of UNPROFOR close to that

25     place where the people you mention were gathered?

Page 33699

 1        A.   Yes, there was UNPROFOR personnel.  They were together with us

 2     because it's a very small area.  We, the UNPROFOR, and the people were

 3     all there together.

 4        Q.   Did you notice them engage in any particular activities?

 5        A.   They cordoned off the area to prevent a "stampedeo" [phoen], and

 6     together with us they distributed chocolate, juice, the food we had.

 7        Q.   Did you see anyone recording, filming?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   To the best of your recollection, where did the food and the

10     bread come from?  Who organised it?

11        A.   At one point, I saw a vehicle carrying bread.  I don't know if it

12     was from a humanitarian organisation and somebody brought this juice and

13     tinned food and chocolate.  I believe there were members of the Red Cross

14     and some women came along with them to bring that bread.  The women were

15     from Ljubovija.  Anyway, all this food was distributed to the people.

16        Q.   On that first day, how long did you stay in Potocari?

17        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  It was a large crowd and a lot of

18     commotion.  After that we went to Bratunac with the boss, Borovcanin.  It

19     was sometime in the afternoon.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  It's

21     approximately time for a break, but I do not know -- if you would have,

22     well, let's say, five minutes to go to conclude your

23     examination-in-chief, then you could consider perhaps after

24     consulting with --

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so.  I think I'll be

Page 33700

 1     able to finish within five minutes.

 2        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, please let us look together at paragraph 29 of your

 3     statement.  It's D976.

 4        A.   I don't see it on the screen yet.

 5        Q.   It's coming.  Very briefly, I have two questions.  Please focus

 6     on them.  You are talking the best way you remember it about the

 7     situation in Sandici.  Can you give us an estimate, how many prisoners

 8     were there, to the best of your recollection?

 9        A.   These people who were surrendering, the prisoners, they were in a

10     meadow along the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje at place called Sandici.

11     They were a bit away from the road.  In my estimate, there could not have

12     been more than 300; 250 to 300.

13        Q.   Can you estimate the time of day when General Mladic came by?

14        A.   It was sometime in the afternoon.  It was after 12.00.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at paragraph 38 of your statement now.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] D976.

17        Q.   In this paragraph, you describe your activities on 15 July in the

18     sector of Baljkovica blocking this terrain and the fighting with the

19     28th Division.  Could you tell the Court what was your physical position

20     at that time?  Were you able to observe and follow the intensity of the

21     fighting?

22        A.   On the 15th of July we came to the public security centre in

23     Zvornik.  Ljubisa went up to meet with the policemen from Zvornik.  Then

24     together we went to the Standard factory for a meeting with the army, and

25     then we went to Baljkovica.  We arrived at Baljkovica, which is a very

Page 33701

 1     small area with a high concentration of people; members of the BH Army

 2     who wanted to break out and our police and army personnel.  In the

 3     beginning, we were at an elevation near Baljkovica and we were able to

 4     follow what was going on.  The fighting was heavy.

 5        Q.   Did the army and the police of Republika Srpska have losses

 6     there?

 7        A.   We had huge losses.  I cannot give you the exact number of dead,

 8     but many people got killed on our side and even more were wounded.

 9        Q.   What about the enemy losses?

10        A.   I suppose they suffered losses too, because they outnumbered us

11     heavily.  If we had losses, they must have had losses too.

12        Q.   And how long did the fighting go on?

13        A.   That whole day, the whole night, and the following day until the

14     moment they were given a corridor to move towards Tuzla.

15        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, thank you for these answers.  This is all for the

16     moment.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovicic, we'll take a break first.  Twenty

19     minutes.  We'd like to see you back after the break.  You may now follow

20     the usher.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 33702

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We just got word on the ICMP

 3     list, 7268, that that's fine to be public.  All those names have been

 4     checked and double-checked, so we're okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The status then will change into public.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I meanwhile deal with a very short item.  Still

 8     related to the testimony of Mr. Krcmar.

 9             D919.  On the 2nd of March, D919 was marked for identification

10     pending a translation.  And on the 3rd of March, the Defence advised the

11     Chamber and the Prosecution via e-mail that a translation been uploaded

12     into e-court.  The following day, the Prosecution confirmed via e-mail

13     that it did not object to the admission of D919, and the Chamber hereby

14     instructs the Registry to attach the translation and admits into evidence

15     D919.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back in the courtroom.  We -- you'll now be

18     cross-examined by Mr. MacDonald.  You find Mr. MacDonald to your right,

19     and Mr. MacDonald is counsel for the Prosecution.

20             Mr. MacDonald, please proceed.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jovicic.

24        A.   Jovicic.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 33703

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you about your time in Srebrenica and deal very

 3     briefly with the 11th and the 12th and then focus on the 13th of July,

 4     1995.

 5             On the 11th of July, you go with Borovcanin to Pribicevac; is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   Yes, correct.

 8        Q.   Now, when you get there, he goes to a forward command post there.

 9     What do you do?

10        A.   When we climbed up on that hill, Pribicevac, he went to that

11     point.  I don't know if it was a forward command post or not.  And I

12     stayed on the side, together with some people who were there.

13        Q.   Do you recall receiving some documents when you were there?

14        A.   I did not receive anything.  I don't know about Borovcanin.  He

15     was there, he interacted with people.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

17     06356.  I have the original of this document, Your Honour, the front

18     page, and I would like to show it to the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  After you've given an opportunity to

20     inspect the document [Overlapping speakers] --

21             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I wonder whether I could

22     ask for the assistance of Madam Usher.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And for the Chamber to have a look at it as well.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             MR. MacDONALD:

Page 33704

 1        Q.   You'll see this is the cover page of a document that's

 2     handwritten:  "DK Command, IKM Pribicevac," 11 July 1995.  To the special

 3     police Brigade Command, combat documents.  And I'm sure that you have

 4     seen at the bottom, "Received by Nedjo Jovicic."  Does that jog your

 5     memory, sir?  Did you receive these documents on that day at that place?

 6        A.   The signature below looks like my signature, but I really don't

 7     remember receiving it.  Perhaps I received it on behalf of Borovcanin.

 8     Maybe he told them to give it to me.  But it's a great surprise for me

 9     now to see this document, because I truly can't remember it.

10        Q.   This is perhaps a difficult question for you to answer as well,

11     but do you remember any documents attached to it then.

12        A.   I really can't remember that whole situation.  It was a long time

13     ago.  It's been 20 years now.  I don't rule out the possibility that I

14     received it and signed it, but now I really can't remember it.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  I'd move to tender that document, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7270, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  Sorry, I am finished with that document.  If I

21     could ask for Madam Usher to return it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MacDONALD:

24        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, I'd now like to move to the 12th of July to

25     Potocari.  And you were asked about food and other things being provided

Page 33705

 1     to the crowd that was there on that day.  We have some video footage of

 2     that time, and I'd like to play it to you now.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  If the Prosecution can please have P01147.  And

 4     if we can bring it to approximately 00:19:40.  That's perfect.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Any text to be considered?

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honours.  My apologies.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:

 9        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, just before I play or request that the clip be

10     played, who do we see on the left of the screen here?  Who's the man?

11        A.   That's Ljubomir Borovcanin.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we now play the clip through to around about

13     00:20:14, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. MacDONALD:  And we've stopped at 00:20:14.4.

16        Q.   Who is that on the screen, Mr. Jovicic?

17        A.   That's me.

18        Q.   I'd now like to move to the 13th of July.  Now, on the 13th of

19     July, you leave Bratunac, you go to Potocari, and you come back to

20     Bratunac; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And after you've come back to Bratunac, you head along the road

23     towards Konjevic Polje.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, Borovcanin is with you.  And when you leave Bratunac to go

Page 33706

 1     towards Konjevic Polje, you also have a cameraman; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that cameraman's name was -- or is Zoran Petrovic but he is

 4     also known as Pirocanac?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'm going refer to him Pirocanac for the duration of the time I

 7     speak with you.  Pirocanac filmed some of the journey after you left

 8     Bratunac and began heading towards Konjevic Polje.  We have that raw

 9     footage and we believe it is in chronological order.  I'm now going to

10     play some for you and ask you some questions about it.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  For the benefit of Your Honours, the version I

12     will be playing is BBC version because it has superior audio quality, but

13     Your Honours have heard testimony that it is identical to the footage

14     that's shot by Pirocanac.

15             With regard to the audio, I'll only be interested in dialogue on

16     two clips, Your Honours.  They have been highlighted to the booths.  I'll

17     advise Your Honours of that in advance.  But for the other clips, I would

18     ask we simply play the audio, the original audio.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Proceed as you suggest, Mr. MacDonald.

20             MR. MacDONALD:

21        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, before I move to the first clip, after leaving

22     Bratunac to go towards Konjevic Polje, you stop at Sandici meadow?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  I'd now like to play the first part of the

25     footage from 00:10:29 -- my apologies.  I should say this is P01541, Your

Page 33707

 1     Honours.  And the footage is from 00:10:29 until 00:10:42.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. MacDONALD:

 4        Q.   Now, would you agree with me this is at Sandici meadow?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, at this point I'd like to refer to

 7     a map which I believe Your Honours have a copy.  I have a copy for the

 8     witness the Defence has checked and it's currently with Madam Usher, and

 9     I'd ask that she provides that the witness just now.

10             For the record, Your Honours, it is P01539.  The map can be found

11     at page 21 in the English and page 20 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   This map, Mr. Jovicic, has been plotted based upon the footage

13     taken from Petrovic of where you went that day.  And I can tell you the

14     footage we've just seen has been put at position 6.  That's just for your

15     reference to help orientate yourself.

16             On the footage just now, the screen in front of you, we see a

17     time and a date stamp.  If you look at the screen, sir, rather than the

18     map.  Now the date stamp is 13 July 1995.  That's accurate, isn't it?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have a --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not --

22             MR. MacDONALD:  Ah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We see a time and a date stamp.  I don't see

24     anything at this moment.  We now see the map.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I'd like to go back to the

Page 33708

 1     video to the place where we paused.  It was at 16:42:07.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you.  I'm obliged to my friend for

 4     assistance.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You have seen the date and time indication in front

 6     of you?

 7             Then let's move on.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes.  Before I do, I misspoke a moment ago and

 9     said it was 16:42:07.  It is in fact 10:42:07 that we paused at.

10        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, you would agree that the date stamp, 13 July 1995,

11     on the screen in front of you is accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   We see a time stamp there as well, approximately 6 minutes past

14     4.00 in the afternoon.  That's also accurate?

15        A.   I suppose so.  Since it's on the screen, I suppose so.

16        Q.   You're not sure but you have no reason to dispute that time; is

17     that fair?

18        A.   No reason.

19        Q.   I'd like us to move to the next piece of footage, please.  And if

20     we can move to 00:11:56 on the same video.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. MacDONALD:  We have paused at 00:11:57.

23        Q.   That's Borovcanin on the screen again; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we can please play the video through and

Page 33709

 1     pause at 00:12:09.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. MacDONALD:

 4        Q.   Now, sir, in the background here, we're looking across at Sandici

 5     meadow, but in the foreground we see the top of a silver vehicle with an

 6     aerial.  Whose vehicle is that?

 7        A.   It was our own SEAT Toledo, the vehicle that I and Borovcanin

 8     used.  Actually, I drove Borovcanin that that vehicle.

 9        Q.   So if Pirocanac is filming this and he is right next to

10     Borovcanin, do you recall where you were at this point?

11        A.   Well, I suppose I was somewhere around there.  I don't know

12     whether I was right there at that moment or a bit further away.  But in

13     any case, I was there.  That area is not that big.

14        Q.   Do you recall seeing any armed Bosnian Serb men with dogs at that

15     point?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Jovicic, between the two clips I have played, there is a

18     blacked-out section of video which we believe has been taped over that

19     lasts about 50 seconds.  Do you recall anything you may have seen between

20     the two video-clips we played happening at Sandici meadow?

21        A.   I really can't remember.  You're asking me about some dogs.  I

22     don't remember having seen that.  I find it surprising.  And whether

23     somebody erased something from the tape or -- or filmed over it, I really

24     don't know.

25        Q.   Well perhaps I can be a bit more precise.  Do you recall seeing

Page 33710

 1     any kind of violence or anything at Sandici meadow when you were there on

 2     that occasion?

 3        A.   No, absolutely not.

 4        Q.   I'd like to move to the next piece of footage.  After Sandici

 5     meadow you, along with Borovcanin and Pirocanac, then leave Sandici and

 6     go further towards Konjevic Polje; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can please play from 00:14:02 until

 9     00:14:10.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. MacDONALD:  We've stopped at 00:14:10.07.

12        Q.   Do you recall seeing this Praga and BOV firing up at the hills on

13     that day?

14        A.   I don't.

15        Q.   This location, it's point 9 on your map, the page you have in

16     front of you, has been identified as Pervani, and the time stamp is

17     16.48, so approximately 35, 36 minutes after the last footage we saw.

18     Pervani is approximately 3 kilometres from Sandici meadow towards

19     Konjevic Polje; is that right?

20        A.   I don't know how far it is exactly.  I would say that it's a fair

21     estimate.

22        Q.   The next piece of footage we have is slightly beyond this, and

23     then the piece that I'm going to show to you is you driving back towards

24     Bratunac.  Do you remember where on this road you turned around?

25        A.   I don't know exactly where that was.  We turned around somewhere

Page 33711

 1     around there.  I really can't give you the exact location.  Perhaps after

 2     we passed Pervani.  I really can't remember the exact location.

 3        Q.   I'd like to move to the next clip.  Before I play it, though, if

 4     we can bring up a still at 00:17:00.  This is just to help you orientate

 5     yourself, Mr. Jovicic.  Now, this has been identified as the area of

 6     Lolici going back towards Bratunac, and it's point 11 on the map, and now

 7     I'd like to play the footage to you.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  But before I do, Your Honours, this is a part

 9     where I would like to draw the witness's attention to the audio.  We are

10     going to hear a radio call.  For the benefit of the booths, the

11     transcript is at page 10, 11 in the English; and 11 to 12 in the B/C/S.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we then receive translation for those

13     parts.  It's already in evidence, this footage, so therefore the

14     verification of the accuracy of the transcript is done already.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Indeed, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, the interpreters can work on the basis of

17     the transcripts provided.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can please the video from 00:16:47 until

20     00:17:20.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Column on the road.

23             "The column is moving.

24             "Yes, yes, but to avoid any surprises.

25             "There won't be any.

Page 33712

 1             "Take this tanker to the building and leave it there, I need it

 2     there.

 3             "Your tanker is waiting is there.

 4             "Officer Bor.

 5             "I'm listening.

 6             "Stop the traffic behind you.

 7             "Kovac said he would do it.

 8             "I know."

 9             MR. MacDONALD:

10        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, the latter part of this call which begins with

11     "Oficir Bor," that is Borovcanin telling Oficir to stop traffic on the

12     road, is that --

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Now, you're sitting next to Borovcanin at this point driving.  Do

15     you recall that conversation?

16        A.   I don't recall that conversation, but this is obviously

17     Borovcanin's voice and he obviously told the officer to stop traffic

18     somewhere.  But I can't recall that specific conversation.

19        Q.   You mention Borovcanin talking to the officer.  Is it the case

20     that he spoke to a man called Rade Cuturic whose nickname is Oficir?

21        A.   The late Rade Cuturic's nickname was indeed Oficir.  I recognise

22     Borovcanin's voice, and he spoke to "an officer."  I don't know whether

23     that was "the officer" or "any officer."

24        Q.   Do you know where Oficir, that is Rade Cuturic, was posted on

25     that day, where along this road?

Page 33713

 1        A.   I don't know where exactly.  I know that he was with his

 2     policemen from the Sekovici Detachment.  I don't know exactly where.  I

 3     don't know where he was deployed.

 4        Q.   Discussing the Sekovici Detachment, do you know Milenko Pepic?

 5        A.   That name does ring a bell.

 6        Q.   He testified he was part of the 2nd Sekovici Detachment in

 7     July 1995, and he also testified that Oficir took him to a bridge in

 8     Kravica village to wait for an order to stop the traffic on that road and

 9     gave him a Motorola to contact him.  Were you aware of any of that taking

10     place?

11        A.   I never heard that before.  This is the first time.

12        Q.   I'd like to continue through the footage now.  You are on your

13     way back to Sandici, and I'd like to play 00:21:30 to 00:21:37.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. MacDONALD:  We've paused at 00:21:37.6.

16        Q.   And we see four men in this still.  Now, the man talking to a man

17     in a blue helmet, that's Borovcanin; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The man at the very back leaning into the --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are two men talking to the man in the blue

21     helmet.  At least looking to.

22             MR. MacDONALD:

23        Q.   If we can say the man immediately closest to the man in the blue

24     helmet looking towards the camera whose face is partially obscured,

25     that's who you've identified as Ljubomir Borovcanin; correct?

Page 33714

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The man at the very back looking away from the camera bending

 3     over reaching into a car, is that you, Mr. Jovicic?

 4        A.   Most probably I think it was me.  Actually, it was me because

 5     nobody else could enter the car with -- unbeknownst to me or without

 6     Borovcanin's permission.  So that's me, yes.

 7        Q.   This clip has been identified as approximately 50 metres from

 8     Sandici meadow in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  And now I'd like to

 9     move to another piece of footage from 00:22:15 to 00:22:20.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can play that, please.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. MacDONALD:

13        Q.   Mr. Jovicic, this piece of footage is shot next to a large

14     largely destroyed house opposite Sandici meadow just across the road from

15     it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Again -- it happens again and again that Mr. Mladic

17     speaks too loudly.  Otherwise we have to return to the little notes, but

18     I would regret if we would have to do that.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MacDONALD:

21        Q.   Do you remember a large largely destroyed house across the road

22     from Sandici meadow?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And this footage represents you, Borovcanin, and Pirocanac now

25     back at Sandici meadow after having left and returning?

Page 33715

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. MacDonald was seeking your confirmation

 2     of what he said, isn't it?

 3             MR. MacDONALD:

 4        Q.   This footage is shot by Pirocanac, so he is back at Sandici

 5     meadow, and that means that you and Borovcanin are with him back there;

 6     is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock, Mr. MacDonald.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm happy to break just now, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll take the break now.

11             Mr. Jovicic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you

12     back tomorrow morning, 9.30, but I first want to instruct you that you

13     should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your

14     testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether that

15     is testimony still to be given tomorrow.

16             I see, Mr. Tieger, you're on your feet.  Is there anything which

17     you would like to deal with in the presence of the witness?

18             MR. TIEGER:  It would be fine, Mr. President.  It's an inquiry

19     you made earlier today in respect of the motion for videolink regarding

20     GRM-030.  You had asked whether we could respond before Monday and indeed

21     we can.  The Prosecution will not be opposing that motion.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  Well, Mr. McCloskey said

23     already that it was possible so it's -- I had no doubts.

24             Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning.  You've

25     received my instruction not to speak with anyone or to communicate with

Page 33716

 1     anyone about your testimony.  You may now follow the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and resume tomorrow,

 5     Thursday, the 26th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

 6     I.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

 9                           March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.