Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33805

 1                           Monday, 30 March 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Due to unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances, Judge Fluegge is

12     not with us this morning.  Travelling, he met some obstacles.  That's the

13     reason why he's not back.  We expect him to be back tomorrow.  For this

14     reason, we'll continue to sit Rule 15 bis as we had decided to do last

15     Friday, Judge Fluegge being unable.  Judge Moloto and I considered it in

16     the interests of justice to continue to hear the case.

17             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18             Meanwhile, I use the time for a few short matters or at least

19     one.  The first one deals with a map which was introduced through

20     Witness Jevdjevic.  It's D909.  During the testimony of that witness a

21     map was marketed by the witness, uploaded into e-court, and then admitted

22     into evidence as Exhibit D909.  The Chamber hereby clarifies that the

23     actual map as opposed to the scanned copy forms part of the exhibit and

24     accordingly the Registry should retain custody over it.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 33806

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Pelemis.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelemis, before we continue, I'd like to remind

 4     you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at

 5     the beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

 6     truth, and nothing but the truth.  Mr. McCloskey will now continue his

 7     cross-examination.

 8             Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           WITNESS:  MILORAD PELEMIS [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pelemis.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Before the weekend, my colleague, Mr. Lukic, pointed out a

16     mistake I had made in a question.  I want to clear that up for you and

17     for us.  At page 33796, I asked you:

18             "Well, you know Erdemovic testified that you issued the orders

19     for them to go kill people so -- and you weren't interested?"

20             And you answered:

21             "I never issued that order to Erdemovic."

22             And in that question, that was not completely correct.  Let me

23     clear that up and read to you what Erdemovic has actually testified to so

24     you're not misled.  And on page 13756 of his testimony in this case, he

25     said, line 6:

Page 33807

 1             "As I've said already, Brano Gojkovic came to our rooms where we

 2     slept and he told me and Franc Kos and Zoran Gorenje to get ready, that

 3     we were going on a mission, that Pelemis had ordered it."

 4             And he went to say that at the Branjevo farm he received orders

 5     to kill from Brano Gojkovic.  So -- but I do want you to know that it is

 6     our position that the mission that Erdemovic says you ordered through

 7     Gojkovic, it's our position that when you did issue that order, you knew

 8     that it was an issue -- an order to kill people.  And I take it you still

 9     deny that?

10        A.   I again deny that I could have issued that order, especially

11     since we are talking about Brano Gojkovic, a private who has no authority

12     to command Erdemovic and Franc.  Even if I had been there, certainly that

13     sequence of issuing orders would not have been right.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing that was asked, whether you do deny

15     that you gave such an order.  Whether you could have done it or whether

16     it should have been done, that's a different question.  Please stick very

17     much to the question as put to you by Mr. McCloskey.

18             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it if you say, "I couldn't have given

21     that order," that you actually want to say, "I did not give that order."

22     Is that how we have to understand your testimony?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 33808

 1        Q.   And you also had challenged the number of victims at the Branjevo

 2     farm, and I wanted to try to clear that up.  At P01 --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I don't believe we need to put this on

 4     e-court, it's very short.

 5        Q.   At P01673, the testimony at the hearing, Rule 61, in 1996,

 6     Erdemovic said that:

 7             "On the 16th sometime about 1 -- somewhere about 1200, I do not

 8     know.  I estimate that the number according to the arrivals of the buses,

 9     civilians killed."

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, if we could go to P01987.  It should be

11     e-court page 41 and page 45 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   This is a report -- from a report by an investigator named

13     Dusan Janc who has assembled all the numbers of people taken out of the

14     graves at Branjevo farm and those that had been forensically connected to

15     secondary graves from Branjevo farm.

16             And after this many years, many -- many, if not all, the graves

17     associated with Branjevo farm have been exhumed, and by DNA analysis

18     individuals have been identified and counted.  And we can see from this

19     report - e-court page 41 in English, B/C/S page 45 - that when -- and I

20     can say as we're waiting for that to come up, that when the grave was

21     first exhumed in 1996, 140 bodies were found.  And over the next many

22     years, many secondary graves connected to that grave were found.  And the

23     total, as we can see from the B/C/S on your side of the page, and this is

24     called Branjevo Pilica, was 1.751.  And if -- you may know that Erdemovic

25     also testified that there were approximately 500 Muslim men being kept at

Page 33809

 1     the cultural centre in Pilica that were also executed.  And we have

 2     evidence in this case that they too were buried at the Branjevo farm.

 3             So if you add in that estimate -- both those estimates of

 4     Erdemovic, 500 at Pilica and 1.000 to 1200 at the farm, you get almost

 5     very close to the actual number that some 18 years later after the work

 6     started we now have.  So if that's correct, you'd have to admit that

 7     Erdemovic was very good in his estimates, wasn't he?

 8        A.   I cannot tell precisely now either about Erdemovic or the other

 9     five in Sarajevo who claimed the number was lower.  But if these are the

10     statistics and they are correct, I have to agree that this is the number

11     of bodies.  Now, whether the six men from the 10th Detachment executed

12     all of them or not, I can't tell, but I can't believe that six men could

13     have executed so many.

14        Q.   Well, did you know that they had help from people, as described

15     by Erdemovic, that were from Bratunac, a unit that came and helped them?

16        A.   From the statements of the young men who gave evidence in

17     Sarajevo, I know that some of them were also involved.  I also asked in

18     February to May 1996, but they didn't know who these men were.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, where exactly are we -- are you

20     referring to the denial of the numbers, et cetera, what are we talking

21     about in terms of the statement of the witness?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't have the exact reference, but I think

23     he'll agree he said that he didn't think the numbers were very high.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  When did he say that?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, that was in his testimony the previous day.

Page 33810

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, then I must have missed that.  Yes.  Then I'll

 2     check that, because it's -- because there is -- in itself, there is not

 3     much use, someone who has no direct knowledge, to go through the evidence

 4     which is before the Chamber and then ask the witness to evaluate more or

 5     less what is true or what is not true.  That's -- if he has any personal

 6     knowledge, that's fine.  If he analyses the evidential materials, then he

 7     can easily leave it to the Chamber.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             Could we go to D320 now.

10        Q.   And I'm going back briefly, Mr. Pelemis, to the 11 July period,

11     and what you should see is an order.  And I think we can see from the --

12     from this original Serbian, is that your signature or someone else's for

13     you?

14        A.   Franc Kos signed for me.

15        Q.   All right.  And is this an authentic document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And we see number 19 on this list, a Zoran Obrenovic.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And there was a mistake last week when I mentioned the nickname

20     of the person that slit the Muslim's throat.  It was a mistake in the

21     transcripts which was cleared up by Mr. Stojanovic in Erdemovic's

22     testimony at page 13741, when he said:

23             "The incident with the killing of a male that you talked about by

24     a man named Maljic," M-a-l-j-i-c, "had already occurred before

25     General Mladic arrived; is that correct?"

Page 33811

 1             And he said:

 2             "Yes."

 3             So the nickname that we are talking about is for Zoran Obrenovic

 4     and it's a well-known nickname for him named Maljic; correct?

 5        A.   Maljic, yes.

 6        Q.   And that's Zoran Obrenovic's nickname?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that's the man that slit the throat of the Muslim on your

 9     orders in Srebrenica; correct?

10        A.   That's not the man, because that man was at the command of the

11     division in the Dom and he wasn't present at the centre.  And I repeat, I

12     did not order the murder of that civilian.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to another subject.  I'm sure you'll acknowledge

14     an operation that you and your unit went on in June of 1995 through the

15     tunnel into Srebrenica town.  Did you do that?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And let's go to P1585.  And the second page.  Go

18     to the next page, please.  Page 3 in the B/C/S.  And in the English, the

19     centre of the page, if we could blow that up.

20        Q.   This is the UNPROFOR report on your mission.

21             "A group of unknown strength set up firing positions on two

22     locations" --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are we reading, Mr. McCloskey?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The right in the middle, the big middle paragraph

25     under "Reconstruction of events."

Page 33812

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   "... (where the launch tubes were found).  They fired their

 4     projectile simultaneously into Srebrenica.  One man was injured when the

 5     projectile struck his house.  After the attack, personnel of the firing

 6     teams retreated to the mine entrance under cover of mortar fire.

 7     19 grenades were fired from the vicinity of the mine entrance.  It is not

 8     sure whether another mortar from outside the enclave delivered supporting

 9     fire.  The people fled from their house in Vitlovac near the mine

10     entrance in the direction of Srebrenica.  They probably surprised some of

11     the people of the raid group who were waiting near the mine entrance.

12     They were shot with an M," it's unclear, "killing the woman and injuring

13     the man.  The raid group probably retreated through the mine."

14             So your entrance into the mine, fired Zoljas into the town, and

15     you killed a woman on your way out.

16        A.   We did not go into Srebrenica in order to fire at it.  Instead,

17     we targeted the police station, the command of the brigade, and the

18     communications centre; that is to say, the post office.  After the

19     completion of the operation, nobody reported to me that they had noticed

20     even one person in the street, and I don't understand how this woman came

21     to be killed.  The order was, during our movement, pay special attention

22     not to fire at civilian houses.  We targeted insulations of the

23     28th Division and the military authorities in Srebrenica.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, the first -- or, as a matter of

25     fact, the second line of your quote says:

Page 33813

 1             "They fired their projectile."

 2             May I take it that everyone agrees that it says "projectiles,"

 3     the S is not very visible, but ...

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you very much, Mr. President, for

 5     catching that.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might also add, somewhere you said that

 7     people fled.  It's "two people fled," this man and that woman.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's proceed.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 32371.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what was the purpose of this mission into

12     Srebrenica?

13        A.   The purpose and the objective was -- since the forces of the

14     28th Division of the Muslim army kept making incursions from the area,

15     killing civilians and people around Srebrenica, the order had come that

16     we have to fire at their command in order to reduce these raids and the

17     killing of civilians in the area.

18        Q.   And do you recognise the handwriting in this document?  This came

19     to us from the state court.

20        A.   Yes, my handwriting.

21        Q.   And what is this that you're doing here?

22        A.   This is about the sabotage operations that we carried out.  It

23     says "Franc Kos, leader."  The second member is Drazen Erdemovic,

24     Mladen Filipovic, Matija Marinovic, and Aris Leferis.  That is the usual

25     composition of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

Page 33814

 1        Q.   Well, we see there is various names, Orkan, and they are dated --

 2     you've written in December 1994.  And then there is one that's illegible

 3     from 1995, and then there is 20 February 1995.  Are these different

 4     operations or ... and we can look at the next page as well.

 5        A.   Yes, can we go to the next page.  This is not very legible.  This

 6     is better.  Yes, this is a conventional coding of sabotage actions and

 7     their participants.

 8        Q.   And we see the top here, "Regional Water Supply ..."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And this document, when did you draft it?  When did you draw it

11     up?

12        A.   Sometime after the war.  After the signing of the Dayton Accords.

13     I analysed everything based on the documentation in the archives of the

14     10th Sabotage Unit.

15        Q.   Where did you get the archives of the 10th Sabotage Unit?

16        A.   No, this was taken from me, from my apartment, when the state

17     security services of Serbia searched my apartment.

18        Q.   I thought you'd just said you'd drafted this after the war based

19     on the archives of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  My question was:  Where

20     did you have access to the archives of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

21        A.   Those documents were in the 10th Sabotage Detachment when I was

22     its commander.  And I wrote this during my change-over, when I was

23     removed from my position.  But all the archives were in the command of

24     the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  What is missing here is financial reports,

25     i.e., how much compensation each of the members received, and the report

Page 33815

 1     of the group commander on the success of each of the actions.  So that

 2     would be it.

 3        Q.   So this water-supply, what city was that water supply for?

 4        A.   That was the regional water-supply for Tuzla.  However, because

 5     of the civilians at the reception, it was decided not to blow up the

 6     water-supply itself but the bridge leading to the water-supply in order

 7     to avoid casualties and substantial damage.

 8        Q.   Why would you blow up a water-supply in the first place for a

 9     civilian town?  And I -- I'm -- of course, there is military in the town

10     as well.

11        A.   I don't know what my superior command in the intelligence

12     administration knew.  Can you hear me?  I could not discuss what the

13     administration knew and why the regional water-supply was important at

14     all.  I also couldn't discuss, nor anybody could, when the television

15     building in Belgrade was bombed in 1999.

16        Q.   Let's go to the next page.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just seek clarification of the last answer.

18             The bombing of the television building in Belgrade, bombing by --

19     you mean by NATO?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, why couldn't you discuss that?  I mean, you're

22     not asked to discuss it, but what is it that makes you think that you

23     could not discuss that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was in a position of the

25     person who had received the order to bomb the television building.  I was

Page 33816

 1     in that position.  I got an order to blow up the regional water-supply on

 2     a condition that civilian casualties were avoided.  The action was not

 3     carried out after all.  I really don't see why this water-supply should

 4     appear as a problem.  That never materialised.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you say you got an order to blow up the

 6     regional water-supply, avoiding civilian casualties, and you didn't do

 7     it.  Is that -- so apparently you were in a discussion -- in a position

 8     to form your own opinion on whether this was legal or not.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.  Every action, not just

10     that one.  If an action targeting military targets put civilians in

11     jeopardy, then such an action would be aborted.  It happened on a number

12     of occasions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, this seems to be not exactly the same as

14     what you told us before, that you were not in a position to discuss these

15     kind of matters.  Do you remember how your superiors reacted when you

16     apparently did not, as you said, follow the order?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing.  There was a little house

18     next to the water-supply, there were civilians there, possibly refugees.

19     That's what we told them.  There was no comment.  The only reaction we

20     received was:  All right, then.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Why then blow up the bridge?  I mean, what was the

22     purpose.  If you're ordered to blow up a water-supply and then you end up

23     blowing up a bridge, why was that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because that road was used by

25     military units.

Page 33817

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You had not received an order to destruct the --

 2     that road?  To destroy that road?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but there is always an order

 4     which says:  If the primary target cannot be destroyed, then there is a

 5     secondary target that has to be taken into consideration as a possible

 6     target.  And again, I'm talking about military facilities, not civilian

 7     facilities or civilians.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So you specifically were instructed or ordered to

 9     blow up the bridge if you couldn't blow up the water-supply?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the order was to blow up the

11     water-supply.  In case that was not feasible, a minor target was

12     designated in order to inflict some damage on the Army of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that order given in writing?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nothing in writing.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   All right.  We see in front of us under number 9, the Srebrenica

19     tunnel incursion of June of 1995.  And these are your notes still, are

20     they not?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And we've seen from the UN report that you managed to hit

23     civilian structures when you fired your rockets or your RPGs or your

24     Zoljas, whatever they were.  What were they that you fired in -- into the

25     town?

Page 33818

 1        A.   I can see that one house was hit.  It was a Zolja, a

 2     64-millimetre Zolja.

 3        Q.   And we can see here that you went into the town and your action

 4     caused panic and disarray among the civilian population; is that right?

 5        A.   Not civilian population but the command of the 28th Division and

 6     Brigade, and this was a warning to them not to make anymore incursions

 7     and stop killing Serbs around Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you say "and we can see here," I

 9     think from what I read nothing says that there was the -- "panic and

10     disarray was among the civilian population."  So you should clearly

11     distinguish between what we see, as you put it to the witness, and what

12     may be the position of the Prosecution although which we cannot see on

13     the document.  We should, in order to avoid any confusion, be clear on

14     that.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Sir, you fired your Zoljas into the town, into an inhabited

18     village, striking a house.  The purpose of this was to scare the

19     daylights out of the civilians and cause panic and disarray among the

20     civilians, among the military, among everyone, wasn't it?

21        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  50 people passed through Vidikovac between

22     Muslim houses.  It was never our goal, it was never our intention to kill

23     a single civilian.  If that had been our intention, we could have killed

24     all the people in the settlement.  We entered through a settlement where

25     there were at least 300 or 400 people and we came back the same way.

Page 33819

 1     Nobody was harmed.  We targeted those facilities which were mapped out

 2     for us, we knew what they were.  If a single Zolja missed its target at

 3     3.00 in the morning, it's a different story.  I don't know who may have

 4     fired it and how that happened, but it was not intentionally.

 5        Q.   So the Zolja was fired by accident, is that what you're saying,

 6     not intentionally?

 7        A.   That Zolja was fired with an intention to strike one of the three

 8     or four targets that I mentioned.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I'd offer this 65 ter 32371 into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7272, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And let's go on to another subject and let's see your statement.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's D978.  It should be page 2 in both

16     languages.

17        Q.   We can see here in paragraph 2 that you say:

18             "From 20 May until August 1992, I was in an independent company

19     which held positions towards Kladanj."

20             And then you say:

21             "In August 1992, an assault detachment was formed based in

22     Vlasenica and I was in that detachment until March 1993," and it goes on.

23             Where were you located in this independent company say that you

24     were in from 20 May until August?

25        A.   The Independent Company Pelemisi had 90 men, and it was deployed

Page 33820

 1     on the front line in the direction of Kladanj.  Our defence line was 4 or

 2     5 kilometres long.  We were the only village in Kladanj municipality

 3     which remained standing where civilians had not been killed and where the

 4     houses had not be torched.

 5        Q.   And to be clear, what village was that that you were talking

 6     about defending?

 7        A.   The village was Pelemisi, 1 kilometre away from the Tuzla-Kladanj

 8     road.

 9        Q.   And so when you described your independent company, it was the

10     Independent Company Pelemisi which had 90 men?

11        A.   Correct.  It belonged to the 1st Birac Brigade Sekovici.

12        Q.   And who was the commander of that unit?

13        A.   You mean the company or the Birac Brigade?

14        Q.   The Pelemisi Unit.

15        A.   From the 24th of May until sometime around the 20th of August -

16     i.e., for two months - I was its commander.

17        Q.   And during that time-period who was the commander of the Birac

18     Brigade?

19        A.   I believe that it was Svetozar Andric.

20        Q.   All right.  And let's go to a map, 65 ter 32342.  And so can you

21     describe this -- the village of Pelemisi?  First of all, was it your

22     family village in some way?

23        A.   Yes.  The village had some 30 houses and it was on the front

24     line; i.e., the front line past through the first couple of houses.  My

25     whole family lived there.  My mother herself lived on the front line, a

Page 33821

 1     couple hundred metres from the trench.  We were attacked some five or six

 2     times, and before the 1st August we'd had several dozens of killed.

 3        Q.   All right.  And I just want to orient us a bit with this.  This

 4     is a map, it's from 1992.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps we could blow up the Serbian map just a

 6     little bit.  And unfortunately, we didn't get the English title of the

 7     map.

 8        Q.   Can you read the title of the map, the Cyrillic?  Or what it

 9     says?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is there in the English version, although

11     the English version does not -- I don't get it on my screen.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Can you read that Cyrillic title on the map?

14        A.   "Deployment of troops on both sides, as at 1st November, 1992."

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this is the bigger map, and I want to go to

17     another 65 ter that will give us a bit of a blow up which is 32343.  And

18     if we could just use the Serbian map for the full screen and blow that up

19     if we can.  A little bit more, please.

20        Q.   You'll agree with me that in the centre of this map with a red

21     flag, it says the -- it's the Birac Infantry Brigade Sekovici?

22        A.   Correct, yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And is it possible to blow it up a bit more.  One

24     more, please.  Okay.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Can you see Pelemisi in there?  It should be -- it's right

Page 33822

 1     between the blue and the red lines.  The --

 2        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 3        Q.   Could you circle that for us?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be provided with a pen so as to

 5     circle it.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   All right.  And a bit to the right of this, beyond the red lines,

 9     we see Trnovo.  Is Pelemisi considered in the general Trnovo area?

10        A.   No.  Before the war, Trnovo belonged to Sekovici and Pelemisi

11     belonged to Kladanj.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd like to offer this map into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7273, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And while you were in command of this 90-person unit, did you

19     hold Muslim prisoners at Pelemisi?  In the Pelemisi village or the

20     immediate vicinity of Pelemisi?

21        A.   Sometime in June, the chief of the police station in Kladanj,

22     Stanimir Pelemis, and some of my relatives, since four police officers

23     were taken prisoner in Kladanj on the 23rd of May, before the conflict

24     ended, on the 24th and the 25th, when the Muslims occupied all the Serb

25     villages and all the Serbs fled, we did not have any place to accommodate

Page 33823

 1     people and we sent them to Sekovici.  Stanimir Pelemis and the relatives

 2     of those who went missing from Kladanj, some 28 of them all together,

 3     addressed the police station in Vlasenica and brought some six or seven

 4     women and four or five men for exchange.  I could not turn them down and

 5     I gave them a possibility to carry out the exchange.

 6             I know that on two occasions they sent Muslim women to Kladanj to

 7     talk about the exchange, but it all fell through.  And then I told

 8     Radenko Zoranovic, since his brother and two relatives were among them,

 9     and I told him if the exchange failed to return all the Muslim people

10     where they had come from.  I know that the Muslim women were returned to

11     Vlasenica and the men stayed in Trnovo and joined the battalion.

12             On the 20th August, I left the area.  And after that, I did not

13     have any authority nor did I know what was going on.

14             I just need to say something else.  In the month of July, from

15     the direction of Vlasenica, sometime during the night two buses arrived

16     and brought Muslims, and those people from Trnovo and Pelemis escorted

17     those 120 people who went in the direction of Kladanj.  After that, I

18     called the commander, Commander Andric, and I told him to warn those

19     people from Vlasenica to stop bringing people across the line, across my

20     line, because there was also a highway leading from Vlasenica to Kladanj.

21     This is all I know about the event.

22        Q.   So your commander, Andric, was also aware that there were women

23     at Pelemisi at this point?

24        A.   Well, I don't know whether he did.  I believe that all that was

25     organised along the police line, that the Sekovici police station was

Page 33824

 1     involved.  Those were all policemen.  Since I was never in Kladanj, I did

 2     not know what it was all about.  And they were arrested one day before

 3     the operation started, and then they tried to exchange them.  That never

 4     materialised.  And in 1997, we found them in the village of Bretelovici

 5     [phoen] near Kladanj.  They had all been killed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I just ask a clarification, what does that mean

 7     "to bring someone for exchange"?  Is that you offer your own people for

 8     exchange or is it that you bring persons from the opposite side and

 9     suggest that they should be exchanged for your own people?  What does it

10     mean?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The policemen who left Kladanj and

12     found themselves in Vlasenica offered Muslims to be exchanged for the

13     Serbs who had remained in Kladanj.  That's how I understood the whole

14     thing.  Your Honour, we did not have any conditions.  We did not have

15     even a single cellar, let alone a prison.  They lived normally in a

16     place --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, you just can release them, isn't it?  I

18     mean, to bring civilians for exchange means that you offered them whereas

19     they may have wished otherwise.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm only saying that they brought

21     people who said that they wanted the civilians to cross over to the

22     territory of the BiH Army.  They wanted to benefit from that, to exchange

23     the Serb civilians who had remained in Kladanj.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, "exchange" means you want something in return

25     from those who you are offering.  If people want to move out, why is

Page 33825

 1     there any need for exchange?  Just release civilians.  Because you

 2     shouldn't detain them or put them in a position where they were dependent

 3     on whether or not there would be any exchange.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had been asked, I would not

 5     have brought them over.  I would not have done that.  But those were

 6     relatives and friends of those who had stayed behind.  This is what they

 7     tried.  And I told them that if they couldn't do it, if they could not

 8     speed things along, that they should be returned to Vlasenica because

 9     they were a burden for a village on the front line.  I did not have food

10     for my own people, let alone others.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was -- your own people, did they deserve food and

12     others not?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  What I'm saying is that even

14     my people did not have enough.  At the same time, whatever my people had,

15     they had as well.  At that time, we did not have any logistics support.

16     Sekovici is a very poor municipality.  Whatever stock we had was used

17     very quickly.  The point that I'm making is that my own people did not

18     have enough to eat.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And as you added to that, therefore the others were

20     a burden.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even a single mouth on top of all

22     of us was a burden.  I made numerous attempts to move out my own people

23     from Pelemisi, especially the old and infirm.  Everybody relied on me for

24     sustenance, and I did not have enough.  Sekovici was a poor municipality.

25     I begged around to see if somebody could give me flour, salt, and other

Page 33826

 1     staples.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.  Or if I say so, then

 3     I haven't looked at the clock.  We'll take a break first.

 4             We would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow the

 5     usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to enter the

11     courtroom.  Perhaps I use the time for D920, which was marked for

12     identification on the 2nd of March pending a translation.  On the 10th of

13     March, the Defence e-mailed the Chamber and the Prosecution and advised

14     that a translation had been uploaded into e-court, and the Chamber would

15     like to hear from the Prosecution whether it has any objections.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And would not be surprised if it received that

18     information after the next break.

19             Meanwhile, Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Pelemis, on page 18 of the temporary transcript, I asked:

22             "And while you were in command of the 90-person unit, did you

23     hold Muslim prisoners in Pelemisi?  Or in the Pelemisi village or the

24     immediate vicinity of Pelemisi?"

25             And you went on a bit and then said:

Page 33827

 1             "... some 28 of them all together, addressed the police station

 2     in Vlasenica and brought some six or seven women and four or five men for

 3     exchange.  I could not turn them down and I gave them a possibility to

 4     carry out the exchange."

 5             And how long did those six or seven women and four or five men

 6     stay in Pelemisi?

 7        A.   I think the women stayed for two months and the men stayed

 8     longer.  They didn't want to go back to Vlasenica.  They stayed at

 9     Trnovo.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he said

11     about the battalion.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   You need to repeat what you said about the battalion, if

14     anything.  The interpreters didn't catch it.

15        A.   Yes.  Later when the situation calmed down, the company became

16     part of the Trnovo Battalion.  I believe that's what it was called.

17        Q.   All right.  Tell me the name of one or more of the women or

18     girls.

19        A.   I don't know any names.  Believe me, I really can't remember.

20        Q.   You don't even know a first name of any of them?

21        A.   No.  No, really, I don't remember.  Look, I wasn't dealing with

22     it.  All I wanted was to make sure that they were safe while there, that

23     they have enough food and medicine.  I had other problems because to the

24     right of me, in a 4-kilometre line it was all empty, they were attacking,

25     50 men per shift, up to 200 men in total.  I had to deal with that.

Page 33828

 1        Q.   So as commander it was your duty to protect these females?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And what was the age range of these females?

 4        A.   If I remember well, there were two or three elderly women, there

 5     were three or four young ones.  The age range was 20-something to 70.

 6        Q.   How about 16 years old?  Was there a 16-year-old?

 7        A.   No, there was only one child, 2 or 3 years old, that stayed

 8     behind.  The mother didn't want to come back for the child.

 9        Q.   Were some of these women, when they were in Pelemisi, raped

10     repeatedly by you and your troops?

11        A.   No.  Except one man came from another unit and we turned him over

12     to a different unit, I believe Pekic's company, while we were away on a

13     field mission, and we found out about what he did only when we came back.

14     And all we could do was turn him over.

15        Q.   So while you were away on a field mission someone came in and

16     raped some of these women?

17        A.   One, I believe.  The one that we knew about complained, then we

18     found him and arrested him and turned him over to Trnovo.  He was not

19     from our unit.

20        Q.   So what was the name of the woman that reported she'd been raped

21     while in your protection?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.  I don't remember.  Stanimir Pelemis was in

23     charge.  He was the chief of the police station in Kladanj, and he was in

24     charge of them, he took care of them and was preparing the exchange.

25        Q.   Did he rape her repeatedly?

Page 33829

 1        A.   As far as I recall, I believe it was only once.  I know that my

 2     men gave him a good beating, and that's why I remember that.

 3        Q.   Which one of your men was guarding the place where the woman, the

 4     victim, was, inhabited?

 5        A.   I believe these were not young men.  His name was Momir, I think.

 6        Q.   He was -- Momir was one of your men?

 7        A.   No, he was in the Pelemis Company, Momir Pelemis, and he reported

 8     it together with them.

 9        Q.   Which one of your men was responsible for securing the residence

10     where the victim stayed while you were away?

11        A.   I believe no one, because they were all away in the field holding

12     the line near the motorway for two ways.  We were making ambushes.

13        Q.   So you had six or seven women that you were responsible -- held

14     in a residence surrounded by soldiers and you had no one protecting them;

15     is that right?

16        A.   No, I was not responsible directly for them.  But I let the

17     police station chief to bring them to the exchange.  They were in a

18     facility not together with army troops but among other civilians.  It was

19     a regular house owned by a man who was a tradesman, and that's where they

20     slept, in the middle of the settlement.

21        Q.   Well, I won't dwell on this but who was the man who owned the

22     house?  And we understand it's your namesake village, it's a tiny

23     village, so tell us who -- who owned the house at that time?

24        A.   Could it be Radan?  Not a young man.  And it's been 25 years, I

25     can't remember.  Radan, I believe.

Page 33830

 1        Q.   The house is still there in Pelemisi, isn't it?

 2        A.   No, it was razed to the ground back in 1993.  Like all the

 3     houses.

 4        Q.   The Muslim troops overran the village and -- and then?

 5        A.   They took it five times.

 6        Q.   What's Radan's full name?

 7        A.   Pelemis, I believe.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 11377.  This is part of a

10     Security Council report.  It's an annex referred to as the "Annex to the

11     Final Report of the United Nations Commission of Experts, established

12     pursuant to the Security Council Resolution 780 of 1992."  I'd like to go

13     to page 2 in both languages.

14             And we see that this is an annex of rape and sexual assault by

15     Cherif Bassiouni.  It's dated 27 May 1994.

16             And if we could go to page 34 in the English, page 77 in the

17     B/C/S.  And if we could blow up paragraph 139, entitled "Kladanj."

18        Q.   And there is a brief description in the beginning of it,

19     describing where it is and the prewar population of 16.028.  According to

20     the 1991 census, Muslims were the majority with 77.3 per cent of the

21     population.  Serbs comprised 23.9 per cent.

22             And then I'll read out:

23             "According to one woman from Vlasenica, she and 42 other men,

24     women, and children were taken from Susica camp in Vlasenica on

25     10 August 1992.  They were told they were to be exchanged in Tuzla.

Page 33831

 1     However, the women and children were put into a room in a house in

 2     Pelemis, Kladanj.  There were about 15 women and 10 men in the basement

 3     of the house.  There, seven girls, ages 14 to 16, were raped two or three

 4     times a week, sometimes during the day.  No other women were mistreated."

 5             Were you aware of this?

 6        A.   No, the number you cited really has nothing to do with what

 7     happened while I was there.  I said that there were seven to eight women

 8     and there was one three-year-old child.  I know about one rape and I told

 9     you what I did about it and how I dealt with it.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 32355.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could I just ask for a clarification before we go

12     on.

13             Sir, you said this 3-year-old child's mother didn't want to come

14     back for her.  What became of the 3-year-old child finally?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The child was later returned.  We

16     took her back one and a half years later.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To where?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the place near Tuzla where the

19     exchange took place.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To whom did you hand the child?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On our side, a family was keeping

22     her.  And then after a year, when an exchange took place near Tuzla, the

23     child was probably taken back to the mother.  I know that the child is

24     with her mother now and everything ended well.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not answering my question.  My question is

Page 33832

 1     to whom was the child handed when he or she was returned?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the mother, personally.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what's the name of the family that looked

 4     after the child for the year and a half?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vucinovic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what was the mother's name to whom the child

 7     was handed?  You should know that one.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you then know that the child was handed to

10     the mother?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told by Jerko Vucinovic, who

12     was captured in 1995, and then the mother and child came to visit him in

13     Tuzla.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have no personal knowledge of this?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, what do you want to do with the

19     expert report?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I'll -- I don't need to enter it into

21     evidence, Your Honour, at this point.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that numbers are referred to which are

23     not part of what is uploaded into e-court.  I see number 278 at the end

24     of this Kladanj paragraph, whereas the title is 277.  Is that the

25     statement of the person or what does it refer to?

Page 33833

 1             You see, it looks as if these are footnotes but I don't find them

 2     in the document as uploaded.  And this, by the way, appears to be an

 3     annex to the report of experts.  Or an annex to something else.  But ...

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I believe I'd stated it was an annex, in my

 5     question, of the expert report.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course.  This is very much of a summary,

 7     and if there is any way you could get hold of what is apparently here

 8     278, then perhaps we might have a look at it or it depends on what it

 9     tells us.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we'll look a bit further.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Especially because, of course, this report, and I

12     take it that you to some extent rely on it to the extent that you have

13     read parts of it, it's not in evidence, but, of course, it may make a

14     difference on who took a statement, if there is a statement, whether that

15     statement supports what is summarised here rather than to just take for

16     granted what is summarised.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're getting to some more information,

18     Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then if you come to that, then we'll wait for

20     that.  I'm always a bit impatient perhaps now and then.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No problem.  Could we go to 65 ter 32355.

23        Q.   Sir, this is a report of an organisation called ICMP, the

24     International Commission for Missing Persons.  It's a "Summary Excavation

25     Report" is what it says in English, and it says:  "Excavations at

Page 33834

 1     Pelemisi, Sekovici, BiH, from 16 to 23 August 2004."  And I'm not going

 2     to go through all of that, but I do want to show you another -- a brief

 3     map and ask you a couple of questions based on some of the information

 4     that is in this report.  It's 65 ter 32345.

 5             And as we're waiting for this map to come up, I can tell you that

 6     this report is the report of the exhumation of two mass graves.  And this

 7     map is a 1:25.000 scale, so as we can see at the bottom each square is

 8     1 kilometre.  We can see Pelemisi there.  Does that look like the -- your

 9     Pelemisi?

10        A.   The village, yes.

11        Q.   And I can tell you that in the green -- the little green dot at

12     the map co-ordinates 34TCQ227, et cetera, which is within about a

13     kilometre of the village of Pelemisi, there was a exhumation where

14     49 people were recovered there, with six women, the youngest being

15     16 years old.  The other exhumation for the northern co-ordinate had at

16     least nine people in it, men.  These were Muslim women and a girl.  Are

17     these the six females you spoke about, to your knowledge?

18        A.   When it comes to the mass graves, I made some inquiries with my

19     men who had been on the line as to what had happened.  Sometime near

20     September or October, they noticed buses coming in the night.  They

21     reported it to the superior command, requesting the command to prevent

22     those paramilitaries from Vlasenica arriving.  I really don't know who

23     was buried in the mass graves.

24             Before the 22 August, when I was the Pelemisi Company commander,

25     nobody was killed because I would not allow something like that to

Page 33835

 1     happen.  But I am fully prepared to co-operate with the prosecutor's

 2     office of the BiH court in their investigation as to who did that and

 3     how.

 4        Q.   Well, you were the commander of the Pelemisi Detachment in

 5     October of 1992, weren't you?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 32372.  And for the purposes

 8     of these questions, Your Honours, I don't believe it's necessary to offer

 9     any of this material into evidence.  I think it's clear what it is and

10     what I'm asking about, unless the Court would like it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the map in itself, we don't need that.  I

12     don't know yet what all this material is, so I have difficulties in --

13     it's up to you finally, Mr. McCloskey, to tender it or not to tender it.

14     If you tender it, we include it with all its details in the evaluation of

15     the evidence.  If you don't do it, then everything we know is what you

16     read from it.

17             And we take it that if something is read, Mr. Lukic, that if

18     there is no objection, that it reflects what the document tells us.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, on second thought, I -- at the end I will

20     reconsider that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'm almost to the end, Mr. President.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 33836

 1        Q.   As you've acknowledged, the Muslims overran your positions, and

 2     we believe this is a recovered document.  Though -- you can see that this

 3     is a document from the Pelemisi Detachment, your name typed into it, and

 4     a signature.  That's your signature, isn't it?  We can blow it up a bit

 5     if you want to see it more.

 6        A.   No, this is not my signature.  However, I did issue such

 7     certificates.  I can give you an explanation.  On the 1st of September, I

 8     was appointed the commander of the assault detachment.  I was in

 9     Vlasenica.  These are certificates for my men.  They wanted to resort to

10     my influence when they addressed the authorities in Vlasenica and

11     elsewhere for the allocation of apartments, because their houses had been

12     destroyed in bombing.

13             On the 23rd of October, Pelemisi Detachment was a company, not a

14     detachment, and I was the commander of the assault detachment.  And here

15     I am saying that I put my signature on the certificates because my name

16     would be their ticket to obtaining places to live.

17        Q.   So this is your signature?

18        A.   No, no.  This is not my signature.  I am saying that this

19     particular signature is not mine, but I did sign certificates of this

20     nature for my family and others.  I am not denying that I issued

21     certificates of this kind because I tried to help everybody who needed

22     accommodation, but this is not the way I sign my name.  Maybe somebody

23     tried to falsify my signature if they needed a house.  But I'm not

24     denying that I signed such documents for my father, my uncle, and others

25     from the village because they had lost everything in the village and they

Page 33837

 1     needed accommodation somewhere in the territory of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   So you're pretending you're the detachment commander in having

 3     this kind of document?

 4        A.   No, I was the commander of the assault detachment.  Maybe it's

 5     not clear from this particular document --

 6        Q.   But, sir, what's very clear --

 7        A.   -- but from the 1st of September --

 8        Q.   What's very clear from this document is that this is from the

 9     Pelemisi Detachment, we see that right at the top, and right at the

10     bottom it says "Detachment Commander, Milorad Pelemis."  So are you

11     saying, this document, you're pretending to be the Pelemisi Detachment?

12     We've heard of the assault position.

13        A.   No, I can't pretend.  Everybody knew that I was the commander of

14     the assault detachment in Vlasenica.  I handed over my duties on the

15     20th of August.  This is not my signature.  Somebody misused my

16     signature.  But I did issue certificates of this kind when people needed

17     accommodation.  This is not my signature.

18             If I had been offered this document to sign, I would have signed

19     it to help those people who did not have a roof over their head.  My

20     mother, for example, lived 100 metres away from the front lines.  She had

21     spent six months living in a cellar.  Why would not -- why wouldn't I

22     have signed a document for my mother?  I don't mind if somebody would

23     have signed -- forged my signature on my mother's document.  What should

24     I have done, leave my mother in the cellar to starve or to be raped by

25     Muslims when they arrived?

Page 33838

 1        Q.   Tell me, if you were going to help your mother or other Serbs,

 2     why wouldn't you write such a certificate with your actual position,

 3     which I take was a promotion from this position?  Why would you have to

 4     fake it to your own people?

 5        A.   I'm saying that this is not my signature.  It's a fake signature.

 6     When I sign such a document, I signed it as the commander of the assault

 7     detachment, and I stand by every such document.  And this was signed by

 8     somebody else because Boro Milosevic needed a house.  If I had been given

 9     this document to sign, I would have signed it.  I repeat:  I would have

10     because I wanted people to be accommodated.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I ask you a few questions about

12     when we started this whole exercise about who was in what position in

13     October.

14             Witness, you said you made some inquiries with the men who had

15     been on the line as to what happened to those which were found in the

16     mass graves.  You said:

17             "... they noticed buses coming in the night.  They reported it to

18     the superior command ..."

19             Which superior command they reported the arrival of buses coming

20     in the night?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that I had said that.

22     When the mass graves were opened in 2004, I spoke to the commanders of

23     the platoons and detachments, those who were on the line at that time,

24     and they told me that at that time vehicles would arrive from Vlasenica

25     during the night.  There were police officers on those buses, and they

Page 33839

 1     executed people from Vlasenica.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked for help --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down and continue.

 5             So:  "... and they executed people from Vlasenica," and could you

 6     please resume from there?  Who asked for help?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our commanders and those people who

 8     were on the line asked the superior command for help.  They wanted them

 9     to prevent the Vlasenica police from doing such things behind our line.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was:  Which was the superior command

11     they, as you said, reported -- they reported to?  Which was that superior

12     command?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police station in Sekovici and

14     the command of the 1st Birac Brigade in Sekovici.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you said you made some inquiries with your men

16     who had been on the line.  So as a matter of fact, you were the superior

17     command at that moment, not the police, wasn't it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, why do you then say "my men" if they were not

20     your men, if I understand you well?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were people who had --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness should slow down.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down.  The interpreters are

24     unable to follow you.

25             So "those were people who had," and could you resume from there.

Page 33840

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who had been in the war with me

 2     from day one.  They started by defending our village from the enemy.

 3     They will always be my brothers, they will always be my men.  These are

 4     primarily my relatives from the village.  I consider them my brethren, I

 5     consider them my men.  They were the first line up.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was their superior command, if it weren't you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The battalion in Trnovo and the

 8     command in Sekovici.  That was the line, the Pelemisi Detachment reports

 9     to the Trnovo Battalion, and the Trnovo Battalion reports to the Sekovici

10     command.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did they report in writing?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  It was the battalion

13     command that drafted its reports in writing.  I am not familiar with

14     that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you don't know, that's good enough.

16     What did you do with that information once you had received that after

17     the exhumation?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the exhumation, I spoke to

19     the investigators who were involved with the case.  I told them that I

20     was willing to share with them all I knew and I had learned from the

21     people who were there and perhaps could offer some information about the

22     mass graves that had been discovered.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Investigators from what authority?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was any statement taken from you?

Page 33841

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  They said that they would

 2     send me an official invitation to come to Belgrade for an interview.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bosnia and Herzegovina investigators inviting

 4     you to come to Belgrade.  Were you living in Serbia at that time?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not understand me.  I've

 6     lived in Serbia since 1982, but I told the investigators in Bosnia that I

 7     was willing to help them shed light on those crimes and to tell them what

 8     I learned from my men who were on the line at the time, which was in

 9     autumn 1992.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you then invited and did you speak with them?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was told that I would be

12     informed about everything and that they would talk to me.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But it never happened.  Is that what I have to

14     understand?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We spoke some two years ago, and

16     then they said that they would come to Belgrade ex officio and that they

17     would talk to me.  I'm still at their disposal.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Two years ago.  I missed perhaps the information.

19             Do the parties have any information about when the exhumation

20     took place?  It's my recollection that a date far back was used.

21             Do you -- perhaps the witness.  Do you remember when that

22     exhumation took place which caused you to make further inquiries?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown a document just a while

24     ago, and I could see that the year was 2004.  That's when the exhumation

25     took place.  There was a document on the screen just a little while ago.

Page 33842

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's also your recollection, that it happened

 2     in 2004?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  If I had not seen the year on

 4     the document, I would have completely forgotten.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said you'd talked to them two years ago,

 6     that is, in 2013.  What did you -- when did you offer your assistance to

 7     the investigators?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, two years ago.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But you knew about it since most likely 2004,

10     because you said when the exhumation had taken place, you further

11     inquired into the matter and you heard all kind of things from what you

12     called your men.  When was that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was immediately after the

14     exhumation.  I wanted to know whether any of them had participated in

15     that.  They categorically denied.  And they said that the people involved

16     were from Vlasenica, from the police and some paramilitaries.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  My question now is:  Approximately some nine or ten

18     years elapsed since you inquired and since, as you said, you had spoken

19     to these investigators.  My earlier question was:  What did you do with

20     that information, and you said you talked to investigators.  But do I now

21     understand that you talked after nine or ten years to investigators

22     rather than immediately after you found out?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not immediately after that.  There

24     was no need because I heard from my people that had not participated in

25     that.  I was not in a position to conduct an investigation in Bosnia from

Page 33843

 1     Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You heard meanwhile that the police in Vlasenica was

 3     responsible for those killings.  That's what you told us.  Didn't you

 4     consider that relevant to bring to the attention of the investigators?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not been in Bosnia for over

 6     ten years.  I don't know how I could help the investigators from

 7     Belgrade.  I spoke to them indirectly through my lawyers.  I offered them

 8     my services with regard to those two graves.  The most important thing

 9     for me, Your Honour, was that nobody from the Pelemis Company who was on

10     the line didn't participate in that crime.  Your Honour, I'm unemployed,

11     I don't have any means to participate in any investigation, let alone an

12     investigation taking place in Bosnia and Herzegovina given that I am in

13     Belgrade.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you can take the phone, call to whomever,

15     and say, "I have additional information.  I learned that the Vlasenica

16     police committed those killings for which in 2004 human remains were

17     exhumed."  Is that -- you don't need that much money for that, one phone

18     call, and apparently you had all the means to inquire with your men.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is where the company

20     members were at the time.  I don't know who exactly from Vlasenica did

21     it.  I don't know their names.  They only told me that they were the

22     police and paramilitaries.  I don't know what else I could say about the

23     perpetrators of the crime.  I can only tell the investigators who was on

24     the line, who has some information, who may have been eye-witnesses of

25     whatever.  That's the extent of my assistance to the investigators.

Page 33844

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But what then triggered after nine or ten years to

 2     speak with these investigators where for nine or ten years you considered

 3     it totally useless to do that?  Why then two years ago you ... what

 4     happened that you got in touch with them, what happened that you started

 5     offering your assistance?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing.  I spoke to a lawyer from

 7     Republika Srpska and he told me that if I wished to do so, I could convey

 8     what I know about that crime.  He gave me a number that I could call.  I

 9     did call it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What triggered you to be in touch with a

11     lawyer from Republika Srpska?  What happened that triggered that advice?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if somebody says that there

13     was a grave in Pelemisi, it wasn't.  It was between the villages of

14     Trnovo and Pelemisi in the mountains there.  Well, just so that nobody

15     could say this was done in Pelemisi by the Pelemisi men.  That was what

16     prompted me to do that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But you knew that for nine or ten years already.

18     What then triggered you to go and see a lawyer in Republika Srpska after

19     having had this knowledge for nine or ten years?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not go to Republika Srpska.

21     The lawyer was in Belgrade.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You talked about a lawyer from Republika Srpska.

23     Even if you didn't see him in Republika Srpska, that's deviating from

24     what's the core of my question.  What triggered you to consult a lawyer

25     from Republika Srpska?

Page 33845

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lawyer was there on official

 2     business.  We talked.  I asked him whether I would be able to shed some

 3     light on that crime because the mass graves had been found there.  He

 4     gave me a number and told me to call them because they would probably

 5     want to interview me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I understand you well, you just happened to

 7     see a Republika Srpska lawyer in Belgrade, which you happened to have a

 8     conversation with, and then you told him something which you knew already

 9     for nine or ten years, and then he advised you that they would probably

10     want to interview you.  Has it got anything to do with your name being

11     mentioned in proceedings in Republika Srpska which would have triggered

12     that you felt that you might have been targeted by the investigators

13     yourself and that for that reason you consulted a lawyer?  Is that what

14     may have happened?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not exactly.  I know that some

16     other people from Vlasenica tried to blame me to no avail, and that's the

17     part that --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that triggered you to have a conversation

19     with that lawyer.  Is that well understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, more or less so.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Why didn't you give this answer two pages earlier?

22     Why didn't you immediately tell, "I consulted that lawyer because others

23     had mentioned my name in this context and that caused me to see this

24     lawyer," instead of saying, "I just happened to meet a lawyer and we had

25     a conversation," where apparently, if I understand you well, you sought

Page 33846

 1     to consult that lawyer because - and there is nothing wrong with that -

 2     your name had been mentioned by others who blamed you for all kind of

 3     things?  Why didn't you give that answer immediately?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not seek lawyers.  I just

 5     happened to talk to a lawyer who was in Belgrade.  I talked to him and he

 6     gave me advice as to what I could do in legal terms.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you learn that you were blamed for anything?

 8     Who told you that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some lads from Vlasenica who were

10     interrogated.  The investigators put questions about me as to where I was

11     at the time, which unit I commanded, and so on and so forth.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When were they interviewed?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some two, three, or four years ago.

14     I can't remember.  Within the last three years.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So shortly before you had this conversation with a

16     lawyer?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you pay the lawyer for his services, advising

19     you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You got it for free?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the name of that lawyer?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Golic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you happen to know why he was in Belgrade

Page 33847

 1     then?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was involved in a civil case.

 3     He represented a company in Republika Srpska or something of that kind.

 4     I did not ask too many questions.  And he is from Vlasenica.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you contact him or did he contact you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He contacted me through friends.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And for what reason?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He suggested that we just meet up

 9     since he was coming to Belgrade, and we went to a cafe and sat together.

10     But we know each other from back during the war.  We knew each other only

11     superficially, though, not very well.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Are we close to break time?  I'm not --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We are close to break time, and I do acknowledge

15     that when you said that you were close to the time you would finish that

16     I took -- that I postponed that moment by my questions.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nope, I -- if I could just offer that document

18     into evidence.  It is 65 ter 32372.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7274, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have another document or two and a very

23     short video-clip, and so I think I should be done in ten minutes if ...

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we could continue for another ten minutes

25     which would give you an opportunity to know all of the cross-examination

Page 33848

 1     before you start the re-examination, but I'm quite willing to take the

 2     break now immediately and perhaps you want to consult with Mr. Mladic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how my colleague would like to proceed.

 4     It's his --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  And I don't --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's one.  And second, Mr. McCloskey --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I don't mind to continue [overlapping speakers] --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ten minutes of Mr. McCloskey is not necessarily

10     always ten minutes.

11             Mr. McCloskey, shall we continue -- shouldn't we continue after

12     the break?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's continue after the break.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That way I'll try to un-McCloskey-ise my

16     questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I was nevertheless happy with the ten minutes

18     announced and I would encourage you to make it really ten minutes.

19             We take a break and we will resume at quarter past midday, after

20     the witness has left the courtroom.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a matter to be raised by the parties but

25     not immediately, if I understand well.

Page 33849

 1             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  I understand the

 2     Defence also had something to raise.  Mr. Registrar suggested that we

 3     both wait until after the witness concluded his testimony.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And there was one outstanding -- I think it was

 5     about the D920, whether there were any objections to the new translation.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  That was one of the issues.  Since the Court raised

 7     it now, I can tell you that we have no objection to the translation

 8     itself.  However, we, despite our efforts, have been unable to find the

 9     point during his testimony when the witness discussed the actual document

10     and would therefore ask the Defence for the page reference with respect

11     to that particular document.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that you'll provide that, Mr. Lukic,

14     to the Prosecution.

15             Meanwhile, Mr. McCloskey, your ten minutes have started, I think.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Sir, you'd just said back, I believe page 40 to 41:

18             "Some other people from Vlasenica tried to blame me."

19             Blame you for what?

20        A.   In relation to those graves that were found in Kladanj, behind

21     Pelemis.

22        Q.   Give me the names of the people that you believe have blamed you

23     for the crimes associated with the graves.

24        A.   I don't want to give the names.  I'll tell the investigators.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, would you please answer the question that was

Page 33850

 1     put to you by Mr. McCloskey.  If there is any specific reasons why you

 2     don't want to give those names in a public session, you can ask for

 3     private session, but you are -- you have to answer that question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not 100 per cent certain about

 5     all of them.  When I get some certainty, I will provide their names.  I'm

 6     not sure at this moment that some of those people tried to shift the buck

 7     onto me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we are not going to wait until you have your

 9     certainty as you wish to seek it.  The names you are aware of, even

10     though you are not certain yet, we'd like to hear them.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have only one name, a man

12     called Kraljevic from Vlasenica, whom I know only slightly.  I heard that

13     he had given a statement and that he wants to shift responsibility to me.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You say: "When I get some certainty I'll provide

15     their names," so apparently you have more names on your mind.  Could you

16     give us the other names, even though not being certain, but what you are

17     aware of at this moment as the names of persons that may have blamed you

18     for something.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you now.  I remember

20     now only the name of this Kraljevic who tried to shift some

21     responsibility onto me.  But when I go back home, I'll try to get all the

22     names.  Because I really don't know people from Vlasenica.  We don't have

23     good contacts at all.  For instance, from 1993 to this day, my mother got

24     housing only three months ago.  Until now, she lived in community

25     housing.  And she got an apartment now only because she had suffered a

Page 33851

 1     stroke.  If I had any contacts there, I would have secured an apartment

 2     at least ten years ago.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- however important it may be, it's not

 4     directly related to my questions.  I offered to you that you could give

 5     the names in private session or at least that we would consider that if

 6     you would have asked for it.  You preferred not to do that.  I repeat

 7     that if any of the other names, and you told us about names, in the

 8     plural, that if you would like to move into private session to give the

 9     other names, that we would consider that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need.  For now I know

11     only the name of Mico Kraljevic.  I cannot allow myself to make a

12     mistake.  There was a lot of talk.  But about this one name, I heard

13     about him from many different people.  I tried even to discuss it with

14     him, but he avoids seeing me.  I am sure that he tried to shift some

15     blame onto me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I read part of one of your previous answers.

17     You said:

18             "I'm not a hundred per cent certain about all of them.  When I

19     get some certainty, I will provide their names," in the plural.

20             Your most recent answer that you don't remember the other names

21     at least requires some explanation in view of your previous answer.  If

22     you want to give that, you can do it now.  Otherwise, I'll invite

23     Mr. McCloskey to proceed.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honestly, Judge, I'm sure about

25     this man.  As for the rest, you know, it's he says, she says.  I would

Page 33852

 1     like to run my own checks.  I don't want to blame falsely other people.

 2     I'm certain about this one and I invited him to come and talk to me.  As

 3     for others, I don't know.  For now I have only one name.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "I don't want to blame falsely other

 5     people."  If you have no names, you couldn't even do that.  I asked you

 6     for an explanation.  The explanation you've given is on the record.

 7     Mr. McCloskey may proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Are you refusing to give us names of such people, particularly

10     Muslim names, so that you are free to intimidate them or greater in case

11     a case against you comes to trial?

12        A.   I don't understand.  What Muslims?  I don't understand the

13     question.

14        Q.   You're not aware that any Muslims have made any allegations

15     against you regarding the killings and rapings in Pelemisi?

16        A.   No.  I really have no contact with them, and I don't know anyone

17     who would know me from Vlasenica.

18        Q.   So all these years, from 1992, with all the statements and all

19     the reports, you're not aware of any Muslims that have said anything

20     against you regarding the crimes in the summer and fall of 1992 in

21     Pelemisi?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I would like to offer into

24     evidence, given this involved testimony of the excavation, the short

25     summary excavation report, which is 65 ter 32355.

Page 33853

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we will get a B/C/S translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You read the mind, at least, of the Registrar.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will mark it for identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P7275, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would also like to enter into evidence

11     65 ter 32345, and that would be the map that identifies the co-ordinates

12     of the mass grave within -- one of them within the kilometre of Pelemisi.

13     That's the co-ordinates provided in the report.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7276, Your Honours.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is the map.  Is that the one marked -- no,

18     that's not the one marked by the witness.  No.  The --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The one marked is already in evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is already in evidence.  With his markings?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it's only the one with the markings.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, Exhibit P7276 is admitted into

23     evidence.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And lastly as a document into evidence, the brief

Page 33854

 1     segment of the annex of the Bassiouni report, 65 ter 11377, and we will

 2     continue to look if -- see if there is more information on that

 3     particular incident that's within the main body of the report.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the brief segment has been uploaded as

 5     such?  Because it's a lengthy document, the whole of the annex, and we

 6     only need ... then we'll reserve a number for the page -- or Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We would object, Your Honour, to admission of part of

 8     this report since there is no way for us at this moment to check anything

 9     on that.  There is no names, there is nothing.  So if there is some

10     follow-up documentation, we can consider it.  But right now to have just

11     this paragraph into evidence, what can we do with that?  There is

12     somebody taking some statements from somebody.  And allegedly --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- condensed --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I was only at the point that I said we have dealt

16     with only one page.  So the first question I put was whether the single

17     page had been uploaded, and then of course we would consider whether it's

18     ready for admission, yes or no.  And you may have noticed that the

19     Chamber, by asking for an explanation of what looks as footnotes, had

20     thoughts which go in the same direction as you have.

21             What we could do is to reserve a number and then leave it to the

22     parties later to exchange views on admission.  And perhaps that is better

23     done once you have clarified the footnote issue, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  That's a good idea.  I'm --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the Defence would know what material

Page 33855

 1     underlying the report exists and on what the report relies.  I think

 2     there were two footnotes in the relevant paragraph.  And we'd just

 3     reserve a number for the time being and then further hear the parties on

 4     admissibility of that portion and possibly any underlying documents.

 5             Mr. Registrar, the number reserved for an extract still to be

 6     made from this annex of the UN report of experts would be?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  P7277, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is reserved for this purpose.

 9             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11        Q.   And, Mr. Pelemis, do you recall attending a one-year anniversary

12     of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in Vlasenica?  General Krstic attended,

13     Vujadin Popovic attended, and others.

14        A.   I do.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This will be the last exhibit.  It's

16     65 ter 26123C.  Janet can play that for us.  And there should be

17     subtitles, so we should only play it once.  I may ask it be stopped a

18     couple of times.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, subtitles are in English?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And do they -- is it comment or is it the --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be dialogue.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It should be a dialogue.  And then of course whether

24     the subtitles accurately interpret what is said has not been verified

25     then yet.

Page 33856

 1             Therefore, since there are subtitles and therefore there is a

 2     kind of an interpretation, Mr. Lukic, I would like you to carefully look

 3     at whether you have any concerns about the accuracy of the English text

 4     below, and then at this moment we'll just rely on what is written there

 5     up till the moment that we hear from you.  And then if it's -- if it will

 6     be admitted, it's part of the evidence.

 7             Do you have a transcription of the footage if you would tender

 8     this later?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And the booths have it.  And I know

10     Mr. Lukic can contact Mr. Stojanovic.  This has been -- this transcript

11     and this footage has been around for quite a while.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let's look at it and see whether we can

13     do with one round of playing it.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Who are these fellas?

17        A.   These are members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We stopped at 13.7 seconds.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   And can you identify the -- we're at 26.1 now.  Can you identify

24     the individuals in this frame?  If you could begin with the person first

25     in the frame with the moustache.

Page 33857

 1        A.   I remember his name was Savo, and he was doing bureaucratic work

 2     in the unit.  On the left of him is General Krstic, and after Krstic

 3     myself.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We stopped at 26.1.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   We -- you may be able to hear, we can see from the English

 9     subtitles that this is a promotion to the rank of reserve infantry

10     sergeant to Drazen Erdemovic; is that correct?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the B/C/S has not gotten to that point

12     yet.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Then we continue to play it from

14     47.5.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Stopping at 1:00.8.

17        Q.   So was that correct?  Was the announcement of a promotion for

18     Erdemovic?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's continue.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   Can you tell who that is at 1:08.6?

24        A.   Second-Lieutenant Franc Kos.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 33858

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So we're at 02:28.1.

 2        Q.   And we've just heard General Krstic pass on the acclaim for you

 3     from the commander, and that would have been General Ratko Mladic;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  Krstic was representing the commander at that time, because

 6     everybody was engaged in Western Krajina, so Krstic came on behalf of the

 7     command to participate in our celebration.

 8        Q.   So in October of 1995, when Krstic passes on these words from

 9     General Mladic, all the Muslims had been dead and buried at the Branjevo

10     farm for many months; correct?

11        A.   Well, three or four months, yes.

12        Q.   And this would have been something that General Mladic would have

13     been fully aware of in October 1995?

14        A.   I don't know what General Mladic was aware of.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further, Mr. President.  And I would like

16     this segment in.  We can -- it's a bit longer than it is here, but

17     this -- I think this will do it and we'll get that set up so we have a

18     good number for it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

20             Apparently Mr. Mladic wants to consult with counsel, which he can

21     do at inaudible volume.  And we'll wait to start with the re-examination

22     until the consultation has been completed.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC:  Bear with me, Your Honours, for half a minute.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will.

Page 33859

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, this is number 26123C.  If we

 2     could get a number for that, I think we'd be in good shape.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm always a bit concerned in portions were

 4     not played in court and are nevertheless in evidence.  Could you tell us

 5     what is left out, Mr. McCloskey?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There is only 45 seconds left.  If that comes

 7     within my ten minutes, we can play it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm afraid that verifying it another way would

 9     take far more time.  So let's have a look at the last 45 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Starting on the far left of the frame, that's Svetozar Kosoric,

13     chief of intel for the Drina Corps?

14        A.   No, Kosoric was in the radio intelligence section of the

15     Drina Corps.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I thought that when we would look at the

17     last 45 seconds that there would be no further questions about it.  But

18     if you want to identify persons, leave it to that.  That's okay, as far

19     as I'm concerned.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Certain people I can't resist, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Can you tell us the next one that's in this photograph, the

22     second person from the left?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the person in the second row?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He looks like he's standing behind the --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.

Page 33860

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Popovic, the security man

 2     from the Drina Corps.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And we had stopped at 02:44.7.  And

 4     we can continue.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, let me see whether a number was already -- no,

 7     no number was yet assigned.

 8             Mr. Registrar, 26123C would receive number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7278, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  May I?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, good day.

17        A.   Good day.

18             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have D320 on our screens, please.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked you today about this

20     document.  You said it was signed Franc Kos.  This is an order to march.

21     How many groups do you see on that list and who are the leaders of the

22     groups?

23        A.   I see three groups.  Group one, that's first squad,

24     Second-Lieutenant Franc Kos.  It has seven men.  The second group,

25     Drazen Erdemovic.

Page 33861

 1        Q.   Just speak slowly.

 2        A.   Second group, Drazen Erdemovic.  It has ten men.  And

 3     the third combat group, a squad, Luka Jokic, sergeant, about ten men.

 4        Q.   Did you remove Drazen Erdemovic's rank?

 5        A.   I never gave it to him, so it was not up to me to remove it.  It

 6     was the personnel administration of the Main Staff that did that.

 7        Q.   On the 10th of July, 1995, when the relevant events took place,

 8     was Drazen Erdemovic a sergeant as it says in the document or not, as he

 9     claims?

10        A.   He signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence, i.e., the

11     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and that's where he was given

12     his rank.  This was one rank, and then he was promoted as we could see in

13     the video-clip and he became a staff sergeant.  But if you are asking me

14     specifically about the 10th of June, he was sergeant by rank.

15        Q.   Did you say "June" or "July"?

16        A.   July.  I'm looking at the document.  It was issued on the 10th of

17     July, 1995.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up P1585.

19        Q.   I would like to jog your memory about something.  This is a

20     report by DutchBat staff.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are interested in page 2.  I

22     apologise.  It should be page 3 in B/C/S.

23        Q.   Look at the title, "Reconstruction of Events."  As you heard, a

24     woman was killed and a man was wounded.

25             I would also like to show you another document about that, P1588.

Page 33862

 1     We can see that this was sent by the intelligence administration of the

 2     sector for intelligence and security of the Main Staff of the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska on 21 June 1995.  This is an order for the engagement of

 4     the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, we are on a good page.  And

 6     in English, we need to go to the next page.  We're interested in bullet

 7     point 6.

 8        Q.   It says, under 6:

 9             "In carrying out the task, strictly adhere to the following:"

10             The first entry:

11             "There should be no danger to UNPROFOR members;"

12             The second entry:

13             "Avoid causing casualties among women and children;"

14             And this relates to what operation?

15        A.   The passage through Sase mine and fire opened on the targets of

16     the 28th Division on the 23rd of June, 1995.

17        Q.   Were men kept abreast of those items in the order?

18        A.   Yes.  Before they entered the mine in Sase, I read them to my

19     men.

20        Q.   Under 3, I can see in the case of wounding or death of any

21     detachment member, their bodies have to be salvaged at all costs.  No

22     member of ours should fall into the enemy hands.

23        A.   That was a rule for every unit.  Even if five died, we had to

24     salvage their bodies, all of them.

25        Q.   We were shown the maps of Pelemisi and the area around it.  I

Page 33863

 1     believe that something was not recorded precisely on page 16, line 25,

 2     where you mentioned the number of dead in defence.  When you were in

 3     charge of the defence of Pelemisi village, how many people got killed?

 4        A.   49 or 50, between the 24th of May and the 20th of August.  And

 5     that concerns all the fighters in my units and those who arrived to help

 6     us.  All in all, about 50 got killed during that period of time.

 7        Q.   On transcript page 20, line 12, you started saying something

 8     about the people who were accommodated in the village who had been

 9     brought there to be exchanged.  You said that you did not have any

10     conditions in place.  You didn't even have -- and the rest of your answer

11     was not recorded.

12        A.   We did not have any logistics support.  This is what I meant to

13     say.

14        Q.   Did you have cells where people could be kept in that village?

15        A.   No, we just had simple houses and they were all inhabited by the

16     local population.

17        Q.   In other words, those people who had been brought there, were

18     they accommodated in empty houses or were -- did they join the Serbs

19     living in them?

20        A.   I believe that that guy lived there and then he moved in with his

21     brother, so those people were accommodated in his house.

22        Q.   And how long did the people stay there?

23        A.   Perhaps 15 or 20 days while I was there.  Or perhaps up to a

24     month.  And then after all the exchange attempts failed, they were taken

25     back to Vlasenica.  At that time in Kladanj, we had 220 Serbs in various

Page 33864

 1     camps, and we didn't know what was happening to them.  And that attempt

 2     to exchange those people and save them, that was what the former police

 3     station in Kladanj was in charge of.

 4        Q.   And those people who were accommodated in that house, who

 5     provided food for them?

 6        A.   Well, one day it was one house and the other it was another.  As

 7     they got friendlier with the people, they would provide for them, and the

 8     military did the same at the time.  Everybody made do as they could.

 9        Q.   And now I'm going to have another intervention on the transcript.

10     It doesn't mean anything to you when I say page 23, line 23.  You said

11     50 men in a shift.  A total of -- how many men did you have in total?

12        A.   No, if I say that we had 90 people in the list, 45 would be in

13     positions and 45 would be resting either for two hours or seven hours,

14     which means that the line was 5 kilometres long and it was manned by

15     45 men at the time, and that means that defence opportunities were slim.

16     That's why I was on the line 24/7, to keep vigil, to keep my men awake,

17     and to make sure that we were not surprised by the enemy.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I would like to return to the previous

19     subject which you have apparently concluded.

20             You answered questions about a number, if I understand it well, a

21     considerable number of persons who would be -- who were to be exchanged,

22     and then you were asked where they were accommodated, whether it was in

23     empty houses, and whether they did join the Serbs living in those houses.

24     And then your answer was:

25             "I believed that that guy lived there and then he moved in with

Page 33865

 1     his brother, so those people were accommodated in his house."

 2             Do I understand that that guy who lived there, was that a Muslim?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was a Serb.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, the person who moved in, therefore,

 5     being his brother, was a Serb as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I understood that the people we were talking

 8     about were Muslims to be exchanged, so I'm a bit surprised by those

 9     answers, first of all, because you're referring only to one person where

10     we are talking about many more; and second, that I do not understand if

11     asked about accommodation of those persons who were there to be

12     exchanged, how that would be Serbs.  Do you have an answer to the two

13     questions; first of all, that you were talking only about the

14     accommodation of one person, and second, how a Serb could be among those

15     to be exchanged?  Perhaps you start with the first question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me clarify.  When the six or

17     seven women were brought to Pelemisi to be exchanged, a man, who was a

18     Serb, who was the owner of a house, abandoned his house and gave it to

19     the people who were supposed to be exchanged, and he was the one who

20     moved in with his brother to the house adjacent to his own house.  He

21     left the house because he didn't want to be a man among the women, but he

22     was the one who help them clean the house and all the hygiene

23     requirements and things like that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think that clarifies the second question

25     I had as well.  So that is clear now.

Page 33866

 1             One other question is:  They wanted to move to the other side of

 2     the confrontation line, those women?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  They wanted to either go home

 4     and it was left to us to exchange them one-for-one.  But the main purpose

 5     of the police station in doing that was to learn about the lot of the 220

 6     people, our own Serbs, that I mentioned, because nothing was known about

 7     them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So these women, as a matter of fact, as you

 9     explain it, were dependent on whether there would be an exchange, whether

10     the other party would agree to such an exchange.  And if not, they

11     couldn't go where they wanted to go; isn't it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The Muslim side declined to

13     agree to the exchange.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And these women had to pay the price for that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  As far as I know, they were

16     allowed to go back to Vlasenica, or rather, the driver, Radenko Zoranovic

17     and another lad took them back to Vlasenica.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But I do understand that they stayed for two months

19     in a place waiting for the outcome of the -- the outcome of the talks for

20     an exchange?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not receive the

22     interpretation of your question, or rather, I only received the

23     interpretation of half of it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I will repeat it.  I said:  But I do understand that

25     they stayed for two months in a place, and I meant that house, waiting

Page 33867

 1     for the outcome of the talks, the negotiations, for an exchange?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you considered to just let them go to the other

 4     side, if that's what they wished?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was later decided in

 6     consultations with Stanimir to take them back to Vlasenica because when

 7     our men saw that nothing would come out of all that, that's what they

 8     offered them as a solution and they agreed to go back home.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you offer them to go to the other side without

10     an exchange just because they wished to go there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when our men learned that

12     there would be no use of them, they told them that they could go either

13     to the Kladanj or to Vlasenica and then they chose to go back to

14     Vlasenica.  Your Honour, I had three or four prisoners, and later they

15     strung me along for months, and eventually what happened was that I made

16     a decision and let them go.  First we talked for two or three months and

17     then they didn't want to exchange those soldiers for our men.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  These three or four prisoners you are talking about,

19     who were they?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were members of the BiH Army.

21     One was taken prisoner in Kalesija, the other in Olovo, one in Zvornik.

22     They are still alive and they work in the Federation of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you this because you apparently make a

25     comparison between a situation where six civilian females are waiting for

Page 33868

 1     the results of an exchange negotiation, and the other situation where you

 2     are talking about prisoners of war.  Do you have any explanation as why

 3     you compare the two, which suggests that their situation is to some

 4     extent the same?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that the other

 6     side didn't want to talk to us.  I also mention that I myself had three

 7     prisoners, soldiers of the BiH Army, and I offered to exchange them for

 8     just one member of the Serbian army and they declined that.  So I was

 9     simply forced to let them go.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we can go back to D320,

12     please.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, we shall go back to that document

14     listing men involved in the march of your unit.  After the operation,

15     after the entry into Srebrenica, where were your men deployed?  Who

16     stayed?  Who moved on?

17        A.   Which day?

18        Q.   On the 12th, when it ended.

19        A.   Sometime around 10.00 on the 12th, I received orders from the

20     Drina Corps that my activities related to the resubordination to the

21     Drina Corps shall stop at 1200 hours.  Then I called the administration

22     in Crna Rijeka, and the duty officer told me Salapura was absent and that

23     he would inquire what to do next.  A little bit later, he called me up

24     and said that the unit should take furlough for a few days and then

25     gather in Bijeljina in order to go to the area of the Herzegovina Corps

Page 33869

 1     in Kalesija.

 2             When we were in Srebrenica, we lined up next to the warehouse of

 3     the Red Cross, and I told my men, "Now we are going along the axis

 4     Srebrenica-Zeleni Jadar-Milici, et cetera.  We shall lay down our

 5     equipment and you are all free to go until the 12th of July when we all

 6     need to assemble in the barracks."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be told to slow down.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you should slow down for the interpreters.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Just a moment.  What we have on the record is that you told them

11     they were free until the 12th of July.

12        A.   Until the 22nd.

13        Q.   Go on, but please slow down.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to the form of the question.  Go on,

15     what?  We could go on forever.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I was just interrupting the witness to correct this

17     date, when he was talking about the 22nd of July, when they had the task

18     to assemble in the barracks.  As of 12th, he has to continue, who was

19     where.  I asked who was where after the 12th.  That was my initial

20     question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see what your original question was.  The

22     question was:

23             "Where were your men deployed?  Who stayed?  Who moved on?"

24             And then you interrupted him.  He was in the midst of answering

25     that question, although you could have perhaps taken him back more

Page 33870

 1     quickly to who had stayed and who moved on rather than to let the witness

 2     explain exactly by what route, et cetera, et cetera.  So if you could

 3     take control again.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But in view of the interruption, there was nothing

 6     wrong with saying, "please go on."  But please give some more guidance to

 7     the witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Pelemis, tell us, do you know who went where after the 12th?

10        A.   To the best of my knowledge, all the men on this list, the 26 we

11     see here, most of them had left on the evening of the 12th to Bijeljina,

12     to Vlasenica.  They went on furlough.  When Dragan Todorovic tried to

13     organise the funeral and the departure for Trebinje, a little later he

14     found three or four or five men who were available to go to the funeral.

15     And the four or five men who stayed were sent to the villages around

16     Srebrenica to collect food and equipment for the house.  That's what I

17     was told.

18             Why, for instance, the 16th?  On the 16th only this crew was

19     there.  They had come back from the funeral or they had returned from

20     their trips to villages where they collected food.  But 80 per cent of

21     the men did take furlough as they had been told.

22        Q.   On the 16th, the men who went to Branjevo, did they go -- did

23     they belong to one squad?  How did they come to form this group?

24        A.   Looking from here, Franc Kos, 1st Platoon, 1st Squad;

25     Brano Gojkovic, 2nd Squad, 1st Platoon; Drazen Erdemovic, 1st Squad of

Page 33871

 1     the 1st Platoon; Goronja, 2nd Squad of the 2nd Platoon; Stanko Savanovic,

 2     he was from the 3rd Squad of the 2nd Platoon; Vlastimir Golijan, 1st

 3     Squad, 1st Platoon.  So they were gathered from different groups.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I can see it's the break time, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How much time would you still need, Mr. Lukic?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I think I should finish in the next 15 minutes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  15.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  15.  Mr. McCloskey, not knowing what the 15 minutes

10     will be about, but as far as you can estimate now?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just one very short clarification on something.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I think we should not yet release the

13     next witness.  We should start with the next witness after the conclusion

14     of this testimony.

15             We'll take a break, Witness.  You may follow the usher and we'll

16     resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break.

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we can have on our

24     screens P1673, please.  It's a statement by -- actually, yeah, testimony

25     of Drazen Erdemovic in Rule 61 proceeding.  I'll need to start from

Page 33872

 1     page 9, line 20, please.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] I will ask you something about your knowledge as

 3     to the allegations of Drazen Erdemovic.  From line 20.  I will read in

 4     English, so you will get the correct interpretation.

 5             [In English] "Q.  Mr. Erdemovic, I now would like to turn your

 6     attention to 16th of July and ask you whether on that day you and other

 7     soldiers in your unit received orders to participate in a special

 8     detail?"

 9             And there is --

10             MR. LUKIC:  We need next page, line 10, because there was some

11     discussion in between.

12        Q.   The question continues at line 1:

13             "Did you receive orders at all that day from anybody in relation

14     to a task or a mission that ultimately you went on?

15             "A.  Yes.

16             "Q.  From whom did you receive that orders?

17             "A.  From the group commander, Brano Gojkovic."

18             Line 7:

19             "Q.  Did he normally give your unit orders to perform certain

20     missions or was this an exception?

21             "A.  Yes, it was an exception."

22             [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, let me ask you this:  According to

23     you in the group that included Franc Kos and Drazen Erdemovic, to the

24     best of your knowledge, could that group be commanded by Brano Gojkovic?

25        A.   Never.

Page 33873

 1        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, who should be in command of that

 2     group which included Franc Kos and Drazen Erdemovic?

 3        A.   In keeping with our hierarchy, Franc Kos was in charge of

 4     everything.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now see further on, from line 18 onwards.  The

 6     question goes:

 7             [In English] "Q.  In response to the orders" --

 8             I quote:

 9             "In response to the orders that you received on 16 July,

10     Mr. Erdemovic, where did you go next?

11             "A.  We went to Zvornik, and Brano Gojkovic and the driver

12     reported to a lieutenant-colonel whose name I do not know."

13             MR. LUKIC:  Then we'll have to go to the next page.  Line 9 and

14     further.

15             "Q.  After there were some conversations between Brano and

16     lieutenant-colonel, what happened next?

17             "A.  They told us to sit in the car and to accompany the vehicle

18     with the lieutenant-colonel and the two military policemen.  We went from

19     Zvornik in the direction of Bijeljina, and on the road we stopped at a

20     farm that was at a place called Pilica."

21             Then we need the next page, line 10, please.  The end of the --

22     that row, it starts "After ..." so it's:

23             "Q.  After you arrived at that farm, Mr. Erdemovic, did you

24     receive additional orders from your superiors?

25             "A.  I personally did not, but I heard when Brano and the

Page 33874

 1     lieutenant-colonel were talking, saying that buses would be coming to the

 2     farm.

 3             "Q.  In relation to those buses, did you receive any additional

 4     information?

 5             "A.  Afterwards when the lieutenant-colonel left, Brano said that

 6     buses would be coming with Muslims from Srebrenica.

 7             "Q.  Did he say what you and the members of your unit were

 8     supposed to do regarding those Muslims from Srebrenica?

 9             "A.  Yes.

10             "Q.  What did he say?

11             "A.  That we have to execute those people, to shoot them.

12             "Q.  When you say 'he' told you you had to shoot them, for the

13     record, who was that, if you could identify him by name?

14             "A.  Brano Gojkovic."

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, from what you know, who gave the

16     orders to move, who approved the issuing of equipment, and who was the

17     commander of the group when receiving orders in Zvornik?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  That's a three-part question.  And

20     also the foundation.  You know from what?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you lay a foundation for the

22     knowledge of the witness, and that may perhaps be different for the

23     various questions, and split them up.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You've told us that Brano Gojkovic, in your view, could not

Page 33875

 1     command that group that included Franc Kos and Drazen Erdemovic.  You've

 2     told us that, in your opinion, that group could only be commanded by

 3     Franc Kos.  Do you know who issued the order for that group to move, that

 4     group that was made up of different squads of your detachment?

 5        A.   From Dragan Todorovic, the logistics man of the

 6     10th Sabotage Detachment who was in the unit on the 16th, I learned that

 7     the vehicle and the equipment normally issued to one squad was taken over

 8     by Second-Lieutenant Franc Kos and that their assignment was to go to the

 9     command of the Zvornik Brigade to receive further orders.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we just understand what the equipment was,

11     please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The standard equipment for one

13     infantry squad:  A case of ammunition, one machine-gun, and eight

14     automatic rifles.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have -- we tried yesterday to see something on

17     the video P1147, and it was video.  I'll try to replace it by one still

18     from that video.  It's 1D5380.  So if we can have that one on our

19     screens, please.  Can we enlarge just the picture, please.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday, as we were watching the video, you

21     told us that you saw that the man had been wounded in the back.  Although

22     the quality of the video is not perfect, would you say that the

23     blood-stain is visible on this man's back?

24        A.   Yes, I stand by my assertion that the man was wounded in the

25     back.

Page 33876

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether that was on the basis of

 2     you identifying a blood-stain on the back of that person as is shown to

 3     us now in the photograph.  That was the question.  Not whether you still

 4     think that he was shot in the back.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that he was hit in

 6     the back, and I base that on the blood-stain or blood-stains on his back.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   If he had been shot in the chest, would he still have wounds in

 9     the back?

10        A.   Yes.  Those would be entry/exit wounds.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of course if you want to continue like this, use

14     your time as you wish, but of course if I'm shot in the chest, whether

15     there is a bullet-hole in my back, you couldn't tell.  The bullet could

16     have stopped, the bullet could have deviated.  There are many, many, many

17     possible explanations which usually are dealt with by experts who have

18     carefully examined the body so therefore --

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] -- yesterday this witness

20     said:  I am not sure because -- this is what I conclude from the photo,

21     and he --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You ask him now if he had been shot in the chest,

23     would he still have wounds in the back.  There is no way that this

24     witness could answer that question.  If you would have asked him if

25     you're shot in the chest, does that necessarily mean that there is no

Page 33877

 1     bullet-hole on the back?  That's a different question, still for an

 2     expert, but I think that many who have often dealt with these kind of

 3     matters, even if not full experts, could come up with an answer as the

 4     witness gave us.  But let's try to remain serious for ourselves.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Still, I would offer this

 7     photo into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a still from the video.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It's the same video, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can the witness, before it goes into evidence --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Actually, I can tell you this still is made by the

13     Prosecution, and it was introduced in Tolimir case.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's in this case, too.  It's in the still book.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P01148.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore most need to have it in evidence if

19     that's --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Absolutely no need.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So let's proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But before it goes away from the screen, could the

24     witness identify to us the blood-stain that is on the back and how we

25     determine what is the back?

Page 33878

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the middle of the back ...

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, somebody has to help the witness with a

 3     pen.  He pressed the screen and it was just blown up.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness marked the photograph, and I take it

 5     that you want to tender that, Mr. Lukic?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D979, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Still from a video marked by the witness admitted

10     into evidence.

11             Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I've just been informed, I was -- we were

13     wrong about that.  This was not -- it was in the Tolimir book, not in the

14     Mladic book.  So -- but we now have it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We have it now, so please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And the second part of

17     Judge Moloto's question, how it is visible that this person is on --

18     lying on his stomach, it's much better visible from the video, and

19     yesterday we saw it that he's --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are looking at this exhibit now.  I am aware of

21     that.  I'm asking about this exhibit.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, if you want to ask the witness so he can answer

23     that part of the question.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I did ask the question.

25             Do you want me to repeat it, sir?  How do you determine that this

Page 33879

 1     person is lying on his tummy?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can see in the photo that

 3     he is on his stomach.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you see?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see blood-stains in the

 6     middle of the back, which indicates that he was wounded in the back.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're answering a different question.  You did

 8     tell us that he's got blood-stains on the back.  I'm asking you how do

 9     determine that that is his back.  You can't say it's his back because

10     it's got blood-stains.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, as I'm looking at this

12     photo, I think that the man is lying on his stomach.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That's everything.

14             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I just have another

16     topic and I'll hopefully finish soon.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it means that the next witness can be

18     excused anyhow that's -- because we'll not start his testimony today.

19             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague Ivetic will inform our case manager, so

20     it will be done.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             Can we have on our screens 1D5378, please.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Earlier today, Mr. Pelemis, you mentioned a

23     person called Stanimir Pelemis.

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   We can see his statement here.  He gave it to the CSB Zvornik.

Page 33880

 1     He spoke about attacks against Pelemisi village.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have the English version, please.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  There is no English translation.  We need next page

 4     from this statement, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then first identify with the witness what

 6     it is, what we're looking at at this moment?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you -- sorry.  Can we go back, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first see whether the witness has -- have you

 9     seen this document before, Witness?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please introduce the document, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I will.  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a statement provided on the 11th of

14     July, 1994, by Stanimir Pelemis, son of Stevan, mother's name Danica.  He

15     talks about war crimes, the war crimes that happened in Jelacici and

16     Pelemisi and he provides a statement.  Earlier today you told us that the

17     village had been attacked five times or, rather, that it had fallen five

18     times; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the next page of this document.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who answered this "yes"?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness said "yes."

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We can see a list of names here.  It says the first attack on the

Page 33881

 1     Serbian village of Pelemisi happened on the Easter of 1993.  The village

 2     was set on fire.  All the 35 households were set on fire.  The second

 3     time the village was attacked was in March 1994.  On that occasion, the

 4     following persons were killed.  What follows is a list of ten names.  The

 5     third time the Serbian village of Pelemisi was attacked was on the 20th

 6     of April, 1994, on Easter, from the direction of Stanova and from the

 7     direction of Kladanj.

 8             Among the persons whose names you see here, did you know anybody

 9     personally?

10        A.   I knew Milos Pepic, under number 1.  Nenad Vidovic, under 2.

11     Miroljub, under number 5.  I personally knew persons under number 1 and 2

12     and 4 in the second batch.

13        Q.   Please tell us their names.

14        A.   Milos Pepic from Pepici, who was my neighbour, his head was cut

15     off.  We found the head some 200 metres away from the body.  Nenad

16     Vidovic was a PE teacher, retired.  Miroljub Milicic was from Popovici.

17     He was a forest worker.  Ljubisa Radojcic from Sekovici was a driver.

18     These are the people who I can remember as I sit here today.

19        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to your 10th Sabotage Detachment, were

20     there any members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment who participated in the

21     attacks against Pelemisi?

22        A.   On the 18th of April, 1993, Zijad Zigic and Franc Kos

23     participated in the attack.

24        Q.   As members of what units at the time?

25        A.   The assault units of the 2nd Tuzla Brigade.

Page 33882

 1        Q.   Of what army?

 2        A.   The BiH Army.

 3        Q.   Were you aware of the fact when they joined your unit, the

 4     10th Sabotage Detachment?

 5        A.   Yes, they admitted that to me as soon as I joined the

 6     10th Sabotage Detachment.  I never held it against them.  I did not hate

 7     them.  I really tried to help them as much as I could when they were in

 8     my unit.  I am still friends with Zijad Zigic.  And let me just tell you

 9     that on that occasion they killed a 70 -- or Stojan Vucinovic, who was my

10     kum.  They set him on fire.  And to this very day, we have not managed to

11     put two bones in his body together.  They set him in fire in a haystack.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I am just wondering how this arises from

13     cross-examination.  I notice that the witness sometimes, not solicited to

14     do that, gave some information on matters not asked to him which deal

15     with it.  I also noticed that at least the statement, paragraph 5, deals

16     with this matter.  So therefore it could have been easily elicited in

17     examination-in-chief.

18             I let it go for a while, but I take it, Mr. Lukic, that you'll

19     move on soon and --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  I just have one more question --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put that question to the witness.

22             MR. LUKIC:

23        Q.   Mr. Pelemis, could you just tell us how many members of your

24     family were killed during the war?

25        A.   11, both on my wife's side and my own side.

Page 33883

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pelemis.  This is all we had for you.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give an opportunity for further questions

 3     by the Prosecution.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelemis, what could you tell us about the

 6     suspicions that were raised and what activity is ongoing in the courts of

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina against you?

 8        A.   Nothing.  If I get invited by the court, I am fully prepared to

 9     go there to prove my innocence.  I personally never killed a man nor did

10     I ever order anybody else to do it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You're willing to go there if they would like to ask

12     questions to you?  Or if they want to treat you as a suspect, you're

13     willing to go and to defend yourself?

14        A.   Absolutely.  Certainly, yes.  I know that I am innocent and I am

15     perfectly willing to prove my innocence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But if there is a warrant of arrest against you, why

17     would you then not go?

18        A.   I will talk to the lawyers about that, and I will consult with

19     them to see what I'm supposed to do.  In legal terms, that is.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you told us that you were willing to go.  You

21     don't need a lawyer to say, "I want to go."  Apparently you're not at

22     this moment yet ready to go, isn't it?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- it's not true that he does not need a lawyer to

Page 33884

 1     decide whether to go or not.  I would not agree with you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Lukic, I am not in a debate with you.

 3     Every suspect or accused --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- can make up his mind himself whether he wants to

 6     go or not.  And if he wants to see a lawyer to find out, of course you

 7     can do that.  But to make up your mind as to whether to go, I asked the

 8     witness, "Are you willing to go?"  You said, "Yes."  And then I said,

 9     "Why don't you go," and then you said, "I have to see a lawyer."  So your

10     willingness is conditional.  And that's exactly the reason, Mr. Lukic,

11     why I consider your intervention inappropriate.

12             So your willingness is conditional.

13        A.   This will be my first time before a court.  I don't know what I'm

14     supposed to do.  I don't know what charges I'm supposed to fight, whether

15     they are false charges.  This will not be a 50 euro damages case.  I need

16     a lawyer because I may be facing some false accusations, something that

17     will have a huge impact on my life.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You said, "I want to go there and prove my

19     innocence."  That's usually against false accusations, isn't it?

20     Otherwise, there is no need -- if you're innocent, then there is no need

21     to prove your -- to prove that innocence.  I mean, you'd told us you

22     would go there and prove your innocence.  Of course, you only have to

23     prove your innocence, apart from whether you have to do that in a court,

24     if someone accuses you falsely.  Otherwise, there is no evidence and

25     there is no need to prove any innocence.

Page 33885

 1        A.   I know what I did.  I know that there is nothing I should fear.

 2     I am afraid of false statements, false witnesses, of the things that

 3     happen in Sarajevo.  I can't be certain about any of that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is why, until now, you are not willing to

 5     go there, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- to be able to lead this discussion, we have to

10     know domestic laws.  There is agreement in between Bosnia and Serbia.

11     He's there, he's in Serbia.  According to that agreement, whether he was

12     in Bosnia or in Serbia, he's there.  So --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Lukic --

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- he can be summoned any time --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the only thing I know is that the Defence

16     brought to our attention a statement in which the witness clearly

17     expresses his concerns as having to appear before a court in Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, isn't it?  And I leave it to that.  If you want at any point

19     in time for purposes of credibility of this witness put anything to our

20     attention, you have an opportunity to do so but not in the context of my

21     questioning of the witness on this matter.  That's as simple as it is.

22             MR. LUKIC:  As a citizen --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to that.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, as a citizen of Serbia --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

Page 33886

 1             MR. LUKIC:  -- he cannot be tried in Bosnia.  He has to be tried

 2     in Serbia according to that agreement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, again, if there is no problem, if he only

 4     can be tried in Serbia, because that's what you're telling us --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, because --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- why would you worry about --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- he cannot be extradited from Serbia to Bosnia.

 8     There is agreement between those two states.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, I'm stopping this, Mr. Lukic.  If

10     at any other point in time you want to pursue this matter, you can do

11     that, but not as part of the examination of this witness, this witness

12     who told us that he is willing to appear before the court which brings

13     charges against him.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Because he's not legally educated.  He does not know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, let's stop it.

16             Any further questions, Mr. McCloskey?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This should hopefully be very brief.

18                           Further Cross-examination by McCloskey:

19        Q.   You said on page 56, in talking about Erdemovic -- actually, it's

20     at page 57, line 1:

21             "He signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence, i.e., the

22     Main Staff of the Republika Srpska, and that's where he was given his

23     rank and then he was promoted, as we see in the video-clip, that he

24     became the second-lieutenant."

25             Did you say that, that we saw from the video-clip he had become a

Page 33887

 1     second-lieutenant or was it some other rank?

 2        A.   I said staff sergeant.

 3        Q.   All right.  So that --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is just a -- an important miscue for the

 5     record.  We'll get that sorted out.  It's a mistranslation, actually.

 6     And I have nothing else.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Pelemis, this concludes your evidence in this court.  I would

 9     like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for

10     having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the

11     parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

12     again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic and Mr. McCloskey, if any of you think

16     that the answers of the witness in relation to whether he has to fear

17     anything from being prosecuted wherever, if any documentation - be it

18     legislation, be it information about the case - apparently initiated by

19     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Chamber, of course if there's

20     any need for you, will look at those materials if you think that it would

21     clarify answers the witness has given specifically about his willingness

22     to appear before a court where he is indicted or at least where an arrest

23     warrant was issued against him.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I -- as you will recall, I

Page 33888

 1     guess it was Thursday and the witness had stated he had given a statement

 2     to the office of the prosecutor in the state court.  We have been in

 3     touch with the state court to see what we could get, if anything.  I do

 4     have some information.  I actually just received it this morning.

 5             And given your -- what you've just requested, I -- it appears to

 6     be -- and I don't know, because I haven't had even a chance to really

 7     understand what it is, but a letter from a lawyer that may be -- may have

 8     represented this man back in 2010, and it appears to be some sort of

 9     statement in what we believe in his handwriting.

10             So it appears as if a lawyer sent a -- some sort of statement

11     from this witness and -- to the state court in Bosnia.  Because I am just

12     not sure what it is, I did not engage the witness with it.  But given

13     your specific question --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think it would be appropriate to first share

15     that information with Mr. Lukic.  And if there is any further reason to

16     bring this to the attention of the Court, parties have an opportunity to

17     do so, especially in relation to my questions which were directly related

18     to his willingness, I think, as he said, to prove his innocence, and

19     that's usually what you do before a court.  I leave it to that for the

20     time being.

21             My apologies to all those assisting.

22             You have an opportunity to consult after we have adjourned.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- yes, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, there was that one issue that you had

Page 33889

 1     delayed for the witness.  I don't know if you want to do it now.  It was

 2     a dead-line you had set for the Defence to respond on some things today.

 3     I can do it via e-mail if that's easier.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps that's easier --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and it would not be a further burden on those who

 7     are assisting us at this moment.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I'll do that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We went already far beyond the time I should have

10     gone.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, can I just make -- just so your

12     words don't get twisted in the future.  You've just made a comment that

13     one may -- "I think, as he said, to prove his innocence, and that's

14     usually what you do before a court," and I know what you meant, that that

15     was an opportunity for a person that may choose to prove his innocence,

16     but it shouldn't be ever twisted to mean a person has a burden to prove

17     their innocence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think I emphasized that already earlier.  But

19     some people who are charged before a court take the position that they'll

20     defend themselves by proving their innocence, whereas it goes without

21     saying that that's not what you have to do.  But of course, you are not

22     forbidden to do that.  But even if you have not proven your innocence and

23     if the prosecution has not proven your guilt, then you still should be

24     acquitted despite the fact that you have not proven your innocence

25     because that's not required for an acquittal.  Is this understood by

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 1     everyone sufficiently so as to avoid any confusion for the future?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely.  And I appreciate that.  Thank you,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We adjourn for the day and will resume

 5     tomorrow, the 31st of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

 6     I.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.26 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day

 9                           of March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.