1 Thursday, 2 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
11 Meanwhile, I can briefly deal with P4337, which was 65 ter number
12 08972, and which was admitted into evidence through Witness Predrag Radic
13 on the 13th of February last year.
14 During the testimony of Nikola Erceg an error was discovered, and
15 the Chamber asked the translation to be reviewed. The revised
16 translation has now been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 03038074-ET.
17 And assuming that the Defence has no objection, but there's always a
18 possibility to revisit the matter within 24 hours, the Court Officer is
19 hereby instructed to replaced existing translation with the revised
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Erceg.
23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Erceg, before we continue I'd like to remind you
25 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you'll speak the
1 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Mr. Traldi will now
2 continue his cross-examination.
3 WITNESS: NIKOLA ERCEG [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 Q. Sir, you were asked in the Karadzic case if you were aware of the
9 VRS's devastation of Muslim villages in the ARK, and you testified that
10 you'd seen that in Kozarac in Prijedor municipality every house was
11 destroyed. Do you stand by that evidence today?
12 A. Well, not every house, but many houses were. I had an
13 opportunity there to see a bit more and I had no chance to see other
15 MR. TRALDI: Well, can we have 65 ter 32349, page 25.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: As Madam Registrar reminds me, under seal.
18 MR. TRALDI: It's labelled under seal because portions of the
19 Karadzic transcript that day are confidential. This page, at least
20 according to my notes, is not one of them. But I'm happy to have it not
21 be broadcast for the moment in an abundance of caution.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have that abundance of caution. It can always
23 be changed later, but I don't know what to expect.
24 Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI: As it reflects that it was in open session, I'll
1 simply read out the relevant portion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if we limit ourselves to this page, then
3 there's no problem. Please proceed.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Sir, you're asked at line 6:
6 "Were you aware of the devastation of Muslim villages by the VRS
7 and Bosnian Serb forces?"
8 Now, you first answered no. Then you were asked not at all, and
9 you answered:
10 "Why I would have to know that? I had heard anything about it,
11 could I have believed the story or not. From my personal experience, I
12 saw only Kozarac, every house destroyed. And after a while, as the war
13 went on, one couldn't come even near the front line, so you couldn't know
14 what was going on. And by nature, I'm a pacifist and I didn't want to
15 see these things. If I had the opportunity, I would have avoided it.
16 When I travelled to Prijedor, I saw that village - what's the name? The
17 one I mentioned now? - Kozarac. But I know from stories that things were
18 devastated, one, another, then another. I know it only from stories. I
19 didn't see it."
20 Now first, do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of
21 the portion of your Karadzic testimony that I've just read out to you?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And what it means that you didn't want to see these things, if
24 you had the opportunity you would have avoided, you were intentionally
25 avoiding seeing the kind of destruction that had been wreaked on other
1 villages; right?
2 A. Well, I did not have any opportunity to come close to those
3 villages because when I travelled that's not where I was going. I mainly
4 moved from Banja Luka to Belgrade when there was an opportunity for that
5 and from Banja Luka to Pale and back. Once I went to Glamoc where I am
6 from. I never noticed anything there. But that was earlier, so I simply
7 had no opportunity to see that. And that it did happen, that it did
8 occur, I know that it did.
9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 02382, page 20 in the English and
10 18 in the B/C/S.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the give the number again for the record.
12 MR. TRALDI: 02382.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir --
16 MR. TRALDI: Actually, for efficiency, can we go to 25 in the
17 English, 23 in the B/C/S.
18 Q. This is a record of the 34th Session of the RS Assembly, and what
19 we're looking at here is the end of the remarks by Mr. Vjestica. And
20 he's expressing concern that -- about a proposal that:
21 "Since it is written in this agreement that everyone will be able
22 to go back to their own territory, that means that his people will be
23 going back to Veliki Babic and we will have to compensate everything we
24 destroyed and burned and 17 mosques that we flattened."
25 Now first, this is an example of the type of destruction that
1 occurred in Kozarac also occurring elsewhere in the ARK; in this case, in
2 Krupa; right?
3 A. I had no chance to see what happened in the Krupa municipality,
4 but I believe that it was so if this man stated so.
5 Q. And below that we see President Karadzic begin to speak. Turning
6 to page 26 in the English, 24 in the B/C/S, after he has begun by saying
7 that he was always charmed by Mr. Vjestica, he says just a couple of
8 lines up from the end of the long paragraph:
9 "This is what was said about the control of borders. We will
10 have barbed wire for ten years. We know that."
11 Now, that's a reflection of the intent that the people who had
12 moved out of these areas in response to Mr. Vjestica's concern wouldn't
13 be able, in fact, to come back; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see I'm right around the ten minutes
16 that I'd projected. This I think should be able to be added to P2508,
17 which is excerpts from this session. We'll handle that, for efficiency,
18 later, and I'll have no further questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
20 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready for re-examination, you may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Just half a minute, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the furniture first should be put in place.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Erceg.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I hope that we'll finish everything by 11.30 so that you may then
3 MR. LUKIC: Can we see P4337, please.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, you have seen this decision on the
5 formation of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us about this list whether there is anyone in it
8 who is from a different Krajina municipality rather than from Banja Luka
9 or are all these people from Banja Luka?
10 A. Sajic, Kupresanin, they're all from Banja Luka.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Possibly Kupresanin, he's from Circa, but that's 15 kilometres
13 from Banja Luka. He's from a village that's between Banja Luka and Srbac
14 but mostly it's Banja Luka.
15 Q. But the duties he discharged were in Banja Luka?
16 A. Yes, he was the president of the assembly in Banja Luka.
17 Q. On transcript page 34000, lines 14 to 16 - that's yesterday's
18 transcript - you said that at the meetings of the Crisis Staff people
19 from various municipalities were often in attendance.
20 A. Yes. Mostly presidents of Executive Councils and presidents of
21 municipalities and members of parties or of Crisis Staffs of those
23 Q. Did they actively participate in the work of the Crisis Staff in
24 the sense that they could vote?
25 A. They mostly made proposals. They informed us about the problems
1 in their municipalities and they participated in discussion but they did
2 not vote.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: Can we now have 1D2837, please.
5 Q. [Interpretation] It has to do with paragraph 85 of your
6 statement. This document was shown to you in connection with that
7 paragraph. You said that it was a completely autonomous decision of the
8 Crisis Staff of the Sanski Most municipality in paragraph 85. The
9 Prosecutor showed you some documents relating to that.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 2 of this document, or
11 perhaps even page 3. Yes, it's page 3 in B/C/S and page 2 in English.
12 Q. In the introductory part at the top of the page, let's see what
13 the formulations in the document are. The Crisis Staff of the Serbian
14 municipality Sanski Most at its meeting held on 18 May 1992 pursuant to
15 its conclusion under item 1, issued on 20 May 1992 the following order.
16 From the formulations of this document, can we conclude whether
17 it was issued on the basis of some other document or order of the Crisis
18 Staff or was it an autonomous document of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian
19 municipality of Sanski Most?
20 A. It's a document which was issued pursuant to the autonomous
21 decision of the same organ, so it does not rely on any outside document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, if we make such an important
23 matter of "autonomous," then I would have invite both parties to tell me
24 exactly what they understand by "autonomous," because otherwise we lose
25 ourselves in a semantic battle which finally may not assist the Chamber.
1 Mr. Lukic, I am not addressing you or you especially, but I'm
2 also addressing Mr. Traldi in this respect.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 [Interpretation] So -- I have finished with this document. If
6 Mr. Traldi wants to deal with it more, he will have some additional time
7 in the end.
8 Let us now please have a look at P7283.
9 [In English] I would kindly ask to provide Mr. Erceg with his
10 statement from yesterday so he could --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, I will ask you something relating to
14 paragraph 80 of your statement. My learned friend Traldi yesterday asked
15 you something connected to the same paragraph and also to the document
16 that we see on our screens right now.
17 So we can see this document from the Banja Luka Crisis Staff.
18 The date is 10 June 1992. "Conclusions," and under item 4, we see that
19 it reads:
20 "Only children, women and the elderly may move out voluntarily,
21 that is to say, of their own free will, from the Autonomous Region of
23 My learned friend suggested to you that only Muslims and Croats
24 were implied here, and I will ask you the following:
25 MR. TRALDI: I'd object to that characterisation I didn't suggest
1 it applied only to Muslims and Croats though I did suggest that it
2 applied to Muslims and Croats.
3 MR. LUKIC: Let us see. At yesterday's transcript at page 34012,
4 I will read the question of Mr. Traldi. At line 5, it says:
5 "This conclusion restricts the Muslims and Croats who are allowed
6 to go to women, children, and elderly people ..."
7 So we find that --
8 JUDGE ORIE: There is a suggestion in it, and not more, not less
9 than that, because it's emphasised that it applies to Muslims and Croats
10 and it doesn't say that applies to others; although, the language
11 Mr. Traldi used does not exclude that. But it could easily be understood
12 as the text being focusing, especially with this questions, as focusing
13 especially on Muslims and Croats.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, do you see in this document that a
17 distinction is made anywhere between Serbs and non-Serbs?
18 A. I don't see such a distinction anywhere, and I'll tell you the
19 historical truth. In the Second World War when it finished, 700.000
20 people from Krajina moved to Vojvodina. There were strong family ties.
21 I don't know exactly, but I think that between 20 and 30 per cent of the
22 threatened Serbian population moved out to Vojvodina in Serbia. So it's
23 not true that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You'd like to leave in
1 Mr. Lukic asked you whether can you see something in the text.
2 Now, would you please focus your answer on that. Mr. Lukic, I take it
3 that it is a matter of seeing what the text says, and I even wonder
4 whether the parties could not agree on that, that the text itself doesn't
5 make the distinction.
6 MR. LUKIC: We can agree on this immediately, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: I also agree that the text is a blanket proposition.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] In this text, under item 4, children, women, and
12 the elderly are enumerated. Only men liable for military service are not
13 included. That's how we see this item 4. That's why I would ask you
14 whether Serbian men could move out of the region of the ARK.
15 A. It was a bit difficult, but, yes, those who were military
16 conscripts could not; others could.
17 Q. Yes, that is why I said those who were fit for military service.
18 Who would Serbian men who wanted to leave the territory of the Krajina
19 report to? Did they need to receive any permission; and from whom, if
20 you know?
21 A. Yes, a permission was needed for a while. I'm not sure if it was
22 needed throughout the war, but for a while it was necessary, and I'm not
23 sure exactly what sort of a permission it was and whether it -- you
24 needed to get it from military or civilian authorities.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. From what you know, though you told us that you didn't know too
3 much about military issues, was it possible to move freely across the
4 confrontation line?
5 A. Well, no.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I have one additional question.
7 You said that for Serbs needed, at least for a certain period of
8 time, they needed permission to leave as well.
9 Now, were the -- was the type of permission given to Serbs,
10 Croats, and Muslims, exactly the same, and were the criteria applied in
11 order to obtain such a permission the same for all three groups as well?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the exact way
13 that the permissions were formulated, so I couldn't tell you that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. On page 34013 of yesterday's transcript - and you don't have to
19 search for that; it's just for the record - you were asked by my learned
20 friend Mr. Traldi in lines 5 and 6, you were aware of the existence of
21 camps in ARK. You said, in line 7: "Yes, military camps ..." You said
22 that you once visited Trnopolje and once you visited Omarska. You went
23 to Trnopolje with Lord, an Englishman, as you said.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know who gave you the permission to visit Trnopolje? Who
1 did you receive that permission from?
2 A. No permission was needed at the time. I think that travel
3 between Banja Luka and Prijedor was normal. We went in Lord's car. I'm
4 not sure what organisation it was. I just heard it was a Lord. We went
5 with them. And as for a permission, I don't think that a permission was
6 needed at the time. Perhaps the reason was that an international
7 organisation had organised the trip.
8 Q. Thank you. Let us please look shortly at P3758.
9 This is the book of minutes from the session of the Kljuc
10 Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff. This document was shown to you
11 yesterday, so let's look at page 2.
12 The Crisis Staff meeting held on the 27th of May, 1992. And it
14 "The Crisis Staff adopted the following conclusions:
15 "1. Legitimacy was given to all decisions of the Crisis Staff of
16 the autonomous region."
17 If the Kljuc Crisis Staff did not give legitimacy to the
18 decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff, what could the ARK Crisis Staff do?
19 Could it replace anyone? Could it punish someone from the Kljuc Crisis
21 A. No, it couldn't because they were completely autonomous with
22 regard to the Crisis Staff of the ARK; if they wanted it to be so, and
23 they were free to act autonomously.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What is true for the parties, of course, is also
25 true for the witness.
1 You are using the word "autonomous," which has various meanings,
2 and it may create some confusion. I leave it to the parties whether they
3 want to seek further clarification or whether we leave it as it is.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps "of their own initiative"
5 instead of "autonomous."
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's your testimony. I can't tell you which of the
7 meanings you want to use.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 94 of your statement, you say:
11 "Of course, there were situations when municipalities did not see
12 my decisions through, in which case nothing happened. If a municipality
13 asked of us to provide something and we did not have that, nothing
14 happened. If we asked a municipality to do something, which they could
15 not, again, nothing ensued."
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the text you read was not identical
17 with the English translation I have in front of me.
18 You said there were situations when municipalities "did not see
19 my decisions through." Instead of that, I read: "did not carry out my
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters' booth
22 does not have the original statement. We were interpreting Mr. Lukic's
24 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, I was reading from B/C/S version
25 that was signed --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should call up the statement of the witness
2 to avoid these problems.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Let's have D982 on our screens, please.
4 Let's try with page 25. We need paragraph 90.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need 94.
6 MR. LUKIC: So the next page, please, in B/C/S. Thank you. And
7 probably page 15 in English. Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you need 90 or do you need 94.
9 MR. LUKIC: 94. I'm sorry. I -- yeah, I corrected it, 94. So
10 let's go --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 17 in the English.
12 MR. LUKIC: In English 17 and next page in B/C/S.
13 Q. I will read again in B/C/S:
14 "[Interpretation] Of course, there were instances when
15 municipalities did not carry out my decisions, in which case nothing
16 would happen. If a municipality asked us for something that we did not
17 have, nothing would happen. And if we asked a municipality for something
18 that they could not provide, again nothing happened."
19 MR. LUKIC: I think it corresponds, the translation corresponds
20 now. Thank you.
21 I apologise to the booths. I did not provide them with the
22 statements. I thought that they receive it automatically from our Case
24 Q. [Interpretation] Concerning this paragraph of your statement, I
25 wanted to show you another document, P6949.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, while we're waiting for that, I'm
2 wondering what you want to do with -- I think it was 1D2837. Do we have
3 that ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: It was not tendered, I take it. That was with
6 the -- where you asked from the formulations of this document that you
7 could conclude whether it was issued on the basis of some other document
8 or order. And since you referred to it in rather vague terms, I wonder
9 whether it would not be better for the evaluation of the evidence to have
10 it in evidence or [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 MR. LUKIC: We are just checking. If it's not tendered, I would
12 tender it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think what I see is that you then went on wanting
14 to have a look at P7283. But 1D2837 I think was not tendered. If you
15 intend --
16 Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI: This is the one I think that we'd suggested was a
18 duplicate of P2413, and Mr. Lukic didn't tender as a result with a lot
19 with the associated exhibits. Of course, I'd stand to be corrected if
20 I'm misremembering.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then have that document on our screens so
22 that we can verify whether it's a duplicate.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, could you please repeat the number.
24 It's not properly recorded.
25 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. P2413.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have that on our screen for a moment.
2 MR. TRALDI: And one more time so the transcript is correct:
4 MR. LUKIC: It's on our list of associated exhibits.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the one, Mr. Lukic, you're ... referring to
6 a while ago. You only paid attention to whether it was issued on the
7 basis of another document or whether it was not ...
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you please try to verify that. We'll --
10 meanwhile, we'll move on and you have an opportunity during the break to
11 do so.
12 MR. LUKIC: We'll do it during the break, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait. Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: So can we have P6949, please.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. We see here that on the 22nd May, 1992, it was ordered in keeping
18 with the decision of the ARK Assembly in the -- in all municipalities of
19 the ARK, standing operational duty -- or permanent operational duty is
20 being introduced.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It was sent to all companies and social organisations.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What does it actually mean?
25 A. It means to municipal bodies and workers' organisations as well
1 as other institutions that were in existence in the municipalities, such
2 as schools, courts, and so on.
3 Q. What kind of mechanism did you have at your disposal to implement
4 it by force or to sanction unless it is implemented by the municipal
5 organs in Kljuc, Prijedor, or in the companies themselves in the ARK
7 A. We had no authority. It was purely voluntary with the
8 presumption that they will abide by what was prescribed, if necessary.
9 If there was no need, they decided on their own to terminate a particular
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could ...
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Let's briefly look at another document --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could the witness explain by what
15 he meant by "it was purely voluntary." What was voluntary?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a municipality was in danger for
17 whatever reason, this decision was supposed to be implemented. If there
18 was no threat, then this decision was no longer implemented or the
19 measures were stopped. It primarily dealt with bordering municipalities
20 close to the front lines.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Where does it say so in this document?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was understood.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it -- it's not expressed in document
24 but that's how you understood it.
25 And then you said:
1 "If there was no need, they decided on their own ..."
2 Who's "they" in this context?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this was the ARK Crisis Staff,
4 it implied the Crisis Staff of the municipality as the body who would
5 decide on, for example, introducing a curfew or not, or some other kind
6 of duty.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm trying to find where the -- where the
8 duties are described in this document exactly.
9 The first duty I see is that the Crisis Staff is to provide
10 continuous monitoring of the situation giving additional instructions,
11 decisions, and orders.
12 I have some difficulty understanding what you meant when you say,
13 well, you could -- you could not implement it any further. Does that
14 mean that you stopped monitoring?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Times were such that situation
16 changed from one day to the next. We never knew what the next day would
17 be like, so this was extremely flexible and this was the way we felt
18 things should be done. If there was any potential threat, action was to
19 be undertaken either through operational duty or the introduction of
20 curfew or some other measures that would remain in place in a particular
21 municipality for as long as they were necessary.
22 So all documents pertaining to that topic could not be put in a
23 time-frame. They were simply drafted so that we could appropriately
24 address the situation as it arose in a particular municipality. Twenty
25 years down the road, I can't recall any specific details about it, but
1 this would be my general statement when I considered the situation at the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't find any of that in the text of the
4 document itself. We can move on. But if you have any comment on it,
5 then you are free to give it.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And we don't have to wait
8 for the break. We just actually -- my colleague checked that 1D2837,
9 65 ter number, is duplicate of P2413.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information. Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 Can we have P7285, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: P...
14 MR. LUKIC: P2 -- sorry. P7285.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erceg, before us is a document we saw
16 yesterday. My learned friend Mr. Traldi, at transcript page 34020, asked
17 you the following, in line 18. I will read out his question in English
18 and your answer. I quote:
19 [In English] "Now this was done pursuant to a decision of the
20 ARK; right?
21 "A. I'm not sure about that. I don't know if there was an ARK
23 [Interpretation] Looking at the document, do you find any mention
24 of any decision arriving from the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI: I'd object on the grounds that this misstates the
3 witness's evidence about the document, and what I have in mind
4 specifically is transcript page 34021, lines 12 through 14.
5 MR. LUKIC: I think I read from the transcript too. But I'll let
6 my learned friend to clarify it after I finish. I have the answer given
7 by this witness that there is no trace and it's, I think, visible from
8 the document that it does not mention anything from the ARK as a base for
9 this document. I'll move on.
10 Q. [Interpretation] There was something Judge Orie mentioned that I
11 would like to follow up. Did you monitor the implementation of curfew in
12 the respective municipalities?
13 A. No. But at the next meeting of the Crisis Staff or some other
14 kind of meeting, we were discussing the situation to see whether anything
15 needed to be done and whether there was any need for assistance. So we
16 discussed these things at meetings, but there was no need for us to be
17 officially notified of the beginning or end of a particular activity.
18 Q. If you believed that a certain Krajina municipality had to
19 introduce a curfew and they refused, could you remove someone from their
20 position or discipline?
21 A. No, neither of those. We believed that they were in a position
22 to judge what was best for them and that that was the right solution at
23 the moment.
24 Q. You were asked about a particular document - that is actually
25 P7286 - with regards to Kalinovik and a decision concerning the
1 implementation of a republican-level decision in that municipality.
2 Were you ever in a situation to see any such republican-level
3 decisions being implemented at Kalinovik?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did the municipality of Kalinovik report to you about their work?
6 A. No.
7 MR. LUKIC: If we can see P7288, please.
8 Q. Mr. Traldi showed you this document where we see that a dispatch
9 arrived from Sarajevo to the CSB in Banja Luka.
10 MR. LUKIC: It's on the second page of this document, so we
11 need ...
12 Q. [Interpretation] Let me ask you this: You, personally, in the
13 time-period you referred to before the creation of the corridor, as the
14 president of the Executive Council and a member of the Crisis Staff, what
15 was your communication like with Sarajevo and Pale, if you remember?
16 A. There was basically no communication. We could communicate only
17 if somebody from Pale, from the bodies there, came to Belgrade when I
18 happened to be there because I had to go there frequently. Then we would
19 meet and discuss particular topics. Other than that, there was no other
20 official possibility.
21 Q. On transcript page 34032, Mr. Traldi mentioned or asked whether
22 the Serbian municipalities were envisaged by the constitution of the
23 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time. Did ARK ever hold
24 the prefix Srpska; Serbian?
25 A. No. I'm not sure how it was defined under the constitution, but
1 I don't think it included any need for constitutional arrangements in
2 terms of regional distribution. It was understood that it was to be a
3 Serbian Krajina, but it did not have that attribute in its name.
4 Q. Very well. We won't go any deeper into any constitutional
5 discussions. Yesterday, Mr. Traldi read out a part of your interview
6 provided to the OTP. It was transcript page 34039. He focused, in
7 particular, on Mr. Brdjanin having good co-operation with the republican
8 level. You were then asked who with exactly, and you said: Well, it was
9 a personal matter. He co-operated well with the SDS president and
10 deputies in the assembly. They were on good terms. You were unable to
11 say how important it was, but you did say that there was a common goal
12 they all shared. Then Mr. Traldi asked you whether you stand by that,
13 and you confirmed as much.
14 Let me ask you this now: In your view, what is the common goal
15 that united those people?
16 A. I had in mind the most important or the single goal, which was
17 that it should remain as part of Yugoslavia as it existed after Croatia
18 and Slovenia left. So that Republika Srpska would remain a part of
20 At that time, when we had discussions with Alija Izetbegovic, we
21 were actually discussing the possibility of his being appointed the first
22 president of that new entity. We tried our utmost to remain within the
23 framework of Yugoslavia by using political means, of course.
24 Q. I'd like to show you P431. This document is the original minutes
25 of the Assembly of the Serbian People in BH. The date is --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic repeat the
2 date, please.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Held on 12 May, 1992. At transcript page 34046, part of English
5 page 20 was read out. It is on page 16 in the B/C/S.
6 MR. LUKIC: And 20 in English.
7 Q. [Interpretation] What was read out were the words of
8 Mr. Vjestica, where he says -- I will read it out:
9 "On the right-hand side of the Una river there are no more
10 Muslims left in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All of the
11 municipalities there were" --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Lukic will need to
13 indicate that place on the page. We are unable to find it at this speed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I don't know how long it will be, but we
15 are close to the time for a break.
16 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it will help. Maybe I could find exactly where
17 on this page is. Now I am a bit lost.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps organise yourself and then let's deal
19 with it after the break.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd
22 like to see you back after that. You may follow the usher.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: However before the break I would like to briefly
25 address a matter of procedural hygiene, I would say, and that is the
1 objection made by -- the objection made by Mr. Traldi.
2 Mr. Traldi objected to a question in which, as he said, Mr. Lukic
3 did not accurately quote the evidence of the witness, misstated the
4 evidence of the witness.
5 Now, the subject matter was the following: Whether decisions
6 taken on a lower level find their origin in a previous decision taken by
7 a higher level organ. There are a few options. Either the decision
8 itself refers to such a decision, then it's visible from the document; or
9 you draw conclusions on the basis of chronology, subject matter, and
10 often similarity in text.
11 Now, that was the issue which apparently led to the objection.
12 What then happened is the following. Mr. Traldi said more or less that
13 you have ignored another part, which I had on my mind. Mr. Lukic, you
14 responded to that, and you said I think I read from the transcript too.
15 You're perfectly right. That's what you did. Although, it's not an
16 answer to a possible misstating, because you can distort something in
17 context. But let's leave all that aside. I'm inclined to think that you
18 are right, although not a response.
19 Then, Mr. Lukic, you continued: "But I'll let my learned friend
20 to clarify it after I finish." That's usually a decision I take. And,
21 of course, I highly appreciate that you're assisting me in performing my
22 task, I would ask you to leave that to me after I have decided on the
24 You then continued by saying: "I have the answer given by this
25 witness that there's no trace" in it. And then you see, I started with
1 an analysis of what the problem was. Mr. Traldi was posing his questions
2 yesterday on the basis first he said did you know, the witness said I
3 didn't know. Then he put a few documents to the witness. And then the
4 witness agreed on basis of chronology, subject matter, that it originated
5 from elsewhere. And then your question, Mr. Lukic, was about whether the
6 document shows, so yes or no, whether it's visible in the document,
7 which - and that's why I started with the analysis - are two different
8 aspects of the same problem.
9 Okay. So you said I have the answer given by this witness that
10 there's no trace in it, I think visible from the document, that it
11 doesn't mention anything from the ARK as a basis for this document. So
12 what did you is not responding to the objection but after you've told
13 Mr. Traldi what he could do later on. Now you repeat the evidence of the
14 witness and you express that you are satisfied by it, which I understand
15 that you are satisfied by it, but it's not really a response to an
16 objection. And then you said I'll move on.
17 Now, that last line, again, is something -- you can move on as
18 soon as I have allowed you to move on. I'm just trying to analyse what
19 it was that happened, and I'm also analysing what happened here in court.
20 That's what I call procedural hygiene. Let's next time respond to an
21 objection, I'll then rule on the objection and I may give some guidance
22 for the other party how to proceed, and then with my permission everyone
23 can proceed.
24 I consider it important to have clear rules on how we act in this
25 courtroom, and I took this just as an example.
1 Finally, we had exactly the same issue earlier today, whether it
2 was visible from a document that originated from a previous decision
3 taken by someone else. Then the parties within a second could agree on
4 it and therefore didn't have to bother the witness with all that, and I
5 wondered whether all that could not have been done in relation to this
6 document as well.
7 I added perhaps five -- I wouldn't say wasted minutes but at
8 least five additional minutes to something that should perhaps not have
9 happened as it happened.
10 We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
14 in the courtroom, we have a similar -- also another translation issue.
15 The Prosecution, that's at least the information the Chamber
16 received, the Prosecution has received a revised English translation of
17 P07287, which was MFI'd. That's 65 ter 19104. The document was MFI'd
18 through Witness Erceg on the 1st of April. I'll finish this after
19 we've --
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just continue. The portion in bold at the
22 beginning of the article was missing in the English and this has now
23 corrected in the revised the translation, as we understand. The revised
24 translation has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 02029664-ET. And
25 if the Defence has no objection, the Prosecution, as we understand,
1 request that the Court Officer be instructed to replace the existing
2 translation with the revised version and that the document be admitted.
3 This instruction is hereby given and P7287 is admitted into
5 When I earlier said this morning that P3343 was admitted into
6 evidence, that was superfluous because it had been admitted already.
7 Only the English translation had to be replaced.
8 We'll now continue, Mr. Erceg. Mr. Lukic will now continue his
10 Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you'll conclude so much before
11 11.30 that Mr. Traldi has an opportunity to put some of --
12 MR. LUKIC: I spoke with my colleague, Mr. Traldi, so ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Booths were correct. We did not have correct page in B/C/S. We
16 should need the next page, 17 in B/C/S. And we are on the correct page
17 in English, only we'll need the bottom page of English version.
18 In B/C/S it's 17th line from the top, and in English version it's
19 line 8 from the bottom. The very end of the line in English, and last
20 third of line in B/C/S.
21 Q. [Interpretation] So it's noted that Mr. Vjestica said:
22 "On the right bank of the Una river there are no Muslims in the
23 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All the enclaves that were
24 there, Rapusa, Veliki Vrbovik, Ostroznica, Babic, Muslim Jasenica, and
25 Zavir, we have evacuated them so that there will be none there for the
1 duration of war operations. Will they have a place to return to? I
2 think not [sic] as our president told us the happy news that the right
3 bank of the Una is the border."
4 And I will read on from the transcript from page --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before do you so, just one clarification.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You read "I think not," in that way it was
8 interpreted to us, but in the English translation we read "I think it is
9 unlikely" after "our president told us."
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Sometimes we correct the
11 written translation when we think it's not the best.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] So I will read from the transcript my learned
15 friend Traldi's question, page 34046, line 13, and I quote:
16 [In English] "Q. Now, what Mr. Vjestica is saying here is that
17 because of the territorial objective, the fourth objective set out by
18 President Karadzic, the Muslims who have left that area won't be able to
19 come back; right?"
20 "A. Yes, but it is based on a fact that in the materials in
21 possession of the Muslim and Croat side is also written that the Serbs
22 who had left the areas that they control have no right to come back
24 "Q. So is it right, then, that you agree that the policy was
25 that Muslims and Croats who left couldn't come back but you assert that
1 Muslims and Croats, their authorities had similar policies about Serbs
2 who had left. Is that your evidence?
3 "A. Yes, yes."
4 It continues and question is, and I quote:
5 "Now, in paragraph 74 of your statement, you say, in pertinent
6 part about people who left that it's clear that everyone had the right to
7 their property even after moving out. Now, you don't really know whether
8 people who left maintained any right to their property, do you?
9 "A. I think that they had documentation which was sufficient at
10 the time stipulating that they can come back and keep their property,
11 especially since it was all recorded in land registers that had not been
12 tampered with during the war."
13 [Interpretation] In paragraph 102 of your statement, you say that
14 the property of those who had left Banja Luka was temporarily assigned to
15 others, that the property was listed so that it could be returned in full
16 to the rightful owner. This was a long introduction and excuse me for
18 But I would now ask you the following during the war, during war
19 operations, are you aware of there having been any requests on part of
20 Muslims and Croats to return to the territory that was under the control
21 of the Serbian forces?
22 A. There were individual cases like that. I heard that at assembly
23 meetings. We would discuss all sorts of issues so I heard about this
24 too. So there were individual instances, yes.
25 Q. And do you know what was done then?
1 A. No, I wouldn't know any details about that, but there were such
3 Q. Were there requests for large-scale return?
4 A. I did not hear about any such instances at that time.
5 Q. And was anyone's return prevented after the war, if you know?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get clarification. The -- witness now you
8 are saying no. A few minutes ago you said I wouldn't know any details
9 about that. How do you know that they could -- they were not prevented
10 if you didn't know what happened?
11 MR. LUKIC: This is after the war, Your Honour, I asked.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood that the Defence
13 counsel asked me two different questions relating to two different
14 time-periods, as far as I understood. Maybe I have misunderstood.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. My apologies.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] And just briefly, because we should wrap it up
18 soon, on transcript page 34050, my learned friend Traldi asked you the
19 following, and I shall quote:
20 [In English] "And you were aware that there were forced
21 expulsions of Muslims and Croats from ARK; right?"
22 "A. Yes. But please, not forced, judging by the records provided
23 by any institution, but one neighbour would expel another for God knows
24 which reasons. I'm just stating that as an example."
25 Can you give us an example from your life from that time of a
1 situation in which you were present when someone tried to expel somebody
2 else or did you have a chance to take part in that and in what way? Just
4 A. Yes, there were some such instances. A specific example was the
5 occasion when I saved a Croat so that he wouldn't have to leave his flat.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Erceg. This was all that we had for you. Now my
7 learned friend Mr. Traldi will ask you a few questions.
8 I don't know if they informed you, I couldn't do that, I should
9 see you before you leave The Hague, please.
10 MR. TRALDI: And in light of the witness's schedule, I'll try to
11 be very, very efficient. I expect I won't need more than five minutes.
12 If we could have first 65 ter 22817a. This a transcript of a
13 video. For efficiency, I'm just going to go to the part of the
14 transcript I'm interested in.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we look at that. I would seek one
16 clarification of the last answer the witness gave in response to a
18 You're recorded as having answered:
19 "Yes, there were some such instances. A specific example was the
20 occasion when I saved a Croat so that he wouldn't have to leave his
22 Who did that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Croat, Ivan Vortnik.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And who saved him that he wouldn't have to leave his
25 flat? Oh, he --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came to me and asked me to see
2 if there was any possibility for him to remain in his flat and I said
3 I'll try. I'll go to the municipal authorities, I'll address the persons
4 who need to be addressed, and he stayed in his apartment. That was just
5 one example. There were hundreds of such examples in each municipality.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not an example of people being expelled by
7 they're neighbours. But, Mr. Lukic, you've asked that question. It has
8 been answered.
9 Let move on Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 2 in both languages, please.
11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
12 Q. And, sir, you discussed on re-examination the movement out of the
13 Serb population from the ARK during World War II. Here, we see a
14 transcript of an interview with Mr. Karadzic, and in the last quote
15 before the redaction he refers, among other things, to 5300 Serbs in
16 Sanski Most who were killed during World War II. It says in
17 Bosanska Krupa and Bihac the Serbs had been majority beforehand. And he
18 says Grmec, Kozara, and the Sana river valley have always been
19 exclusively Serbian.
20 It's correct that the Bosnian Serb leadership took the position
21 that areas that had been Serb majority before World War II, including
22 such areas in the ARK, had to be Serb-controlled during and after the
23 war; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Grmec, Kozara, and the Sana river valley, that's a reference
1 particularly to the municipalities of Prijedor and Sanski Most; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 22817a.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22817a receives number P7294,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Finally, sir, regarding the issue of voluntary departure that you
10 discussed again on re-examination, you stood today by your testimony in
11 the Karadzic case that every house in Kozarac was destroyed and that
12 you'd heard about the destruction of other villages in the ARK. You
13 confirmed yesterday that people in prisons behind barbed wire were living
14 in terror.
15 So what I'm putting to you is that you cannot possibly have
16 believed then or now that the people whose homes were destroyed and the
17 people living in terror in camps had any choice but to leave if they had
18 the money to pay and they were given permission to go. You know there
19 was nothing voluntary about it. That's the truth; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
24 Mr. Erceg, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like
25 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague, and of course
1 we are glad that we could accommodate your return today so that you
2 didn't have to stay any further in The Hague. I'd like that thank you
3 for having answered all the questions that were put to you, put you to
4 the parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
8 And, Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you want to be excused in view
9 of what you said earlier.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: May I be excused?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are excused, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: We need hygiene kept well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't say that I requested your to be
16 excused but I assumed and you confirmed that. Thank you for that.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. TRALDI: And, Mr. President, if I might also be excused,
19 though for a different reason.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we had one leftover of yesterday in relation to
24 65 ter 14584, which was not further addressed in court and which was
25 related to Witness Vidoje Blagojevic. And I think I yesterday asked the
1 Defence whether it withdraws the tendering of the document, and I have
2 not yet received an answer.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, are you able to give that, or would you wait
4 until Mr. Lukic is back?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. I
6 think that he was in charge of this part that has to do with
7 Mr. Blagojevic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is the next witness available? You would call
9 Mr. Pero Andric as your next witness?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think that
11 he is ready.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted in the
13 courtroom. I see the usher is -- has left the courtroom.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I see a lot of counsel for the Prosecution standing,
16 but it's -- it will be you?
17 MR. GILLETT: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
18 It's Matthew Gillett addressing the next witness. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andric. Can you hear me in a
22 language you understand?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
25 make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: PERO ANDRIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Andric. Please be seated.
6 Mr. Andric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You find
7 Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would ask you to speak slowly and tell us
12 your full name.
13 A. Pero Andric.
14 Q. Would you please tell the Court when and where you were born?
15 A. 11th February, 1971; Srebrenica municipality; Pribicevac, place
16 of birth.
17 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell the Chamber what education you have.
18 A. I'm an electrician by occupation.
19 Q. Where do you currently work?
20 A. I currently work at the lead and zinc mine Sase, Srebrenica.
21 Q. Do you have any military education, Mr. Andric?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Up until the breakout of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you
24 serve the compulsory military service?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber where and what your military
2 occupational speciality was.
3 A. I served at Skopje, the Petrovac airport, and my military
4 occupational speciality was rocket mechanic.
5 Q. Where were you when the war broke out in 1992? Where were you
6 living at the time?
7 A. I lived at the Pribiceva village where I was born.
8 Q. Did you at any point join the armed forces of Republika Srpska;
9 that is to say, were you mobilised?
10 A. I was mobilised in 1992, but I don't know the exact dates.
11 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber to which unit you were
13 A. I don't know how exactly the units were called. It was a village
14 guard of some sort. One could call it that way.
15 Q. After that, was there any organised military formation that you
16 belonged to in terms of establishment over time?
17 A. Yes. After that, I was a member of companies and eventually I
18 was a member of a military police platoon.
19 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber which brigade it was that you
20 were -- belonged to.
21 A. I think it was the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
22 Q. Did you have to perform any duties of an officer in the 3rd
23 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could you please tell us at least the year, if not anything
1 closer, in terms of the point in time when you left the 3rd Battalion and
2 were transferred to the military police platoon?
3 A. I think it was in 1994 that I joined the military police platoon.
4 Q. And this military police platoon, which brigade did it belong to?
5 A. The Bratunac Brigade.
6 Q. Could you also tell us until when did you remain in that military
7 police platoon?
8 A. I think, as far as I remember, that it was until June, around the
9 15th or 16th, I don't know the exact dates, but in 1995.
10 Q. Just for the record, did you say June or July 1995?
11 A. May ... May, June, July.
12 Q. Just take it slowly. That's precisely why I would like you to
13 tell us for the record in which month did you cease to be a member of the
14 military police platoon?
15 A. In June.
16 Q. Very well. After that, did you perform certain tasks? In other
17 words, were what your duties until the end of the war?
18 A. You mean after the military police?
19 Q. Yes, after.
20 A. I was engaged in the work of civilian services in Srebrenica on
21 different jobs.
22 Q. Please tell the Court what kind of work did you perform in
23 Srebrenica town and its environs.
24 A. At first, we worked on touring Slapovici which is a small town of
25 weekend homes. Later on, we cut wood. After that, I participated in the
1 work of the commission for war booty.
2 Q. Was that under the remit of the civilian structures in Srebrenica
3 or the army?
4 A. I don't know. I was engaged by the municipal civilian
5 authorities. At least I believed they were civilian.
6 Q. By that time, had any members of your immediate family been
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was killed in terms of your immediate family?
10 A. My brother.
11 Q. When and where?
12 A. In 1994 on the 18th of November in Bihac. That is, the Bihac
13 theatre of war.
14 Q. Your engagement with the civilian structures of Srebrenica
15 municipality, did it have anything to do with the fact that a member of
16 your immediate family was killed?
17 A. I think so.
18 MR. GILLETT: Just to intervene at this stage. I'm looking at
19 the revised 65 ter summary for the witness and not seeing a reference to
20 working with civilian structures or this topic in general, so I'm just
21 wondering if my friend could direct me to any notice of this topic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I think my
24 learned friend is correct. It is not in the submission. I just wanted
25 to go through his biographical details, so this was the last I had to ask
1 of that particular topic. My purpose was simply to finish off the topic
2 of his engagement with the civilian structures during the war.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still relevant to have that in a 65 ter
4 summary. But if that's what have you done now, we can't -- please then
5 move on and try to find the subject matter which we find in the 65 ter
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, Mr. Stojanovic --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- let me just point out to you that that very
10 last question that caused Mr. Gillett to stand up was a leading question.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll bear that in mind,
12 Your Honour --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- so that I do not put leading
15 questions anymore.
16 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, Mr. Andric, to a specific
17 time-period concerning fighting in Srebrenica. Do you recall when the
18 fighting around Srebrenica started in 1995?
19 A. It began in July on the 11th, as far as I remember.
20 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was your task on the
21 11th of July, 1995?
22 A. As far as I recall on the 11th of July, a group of military
23 policemen was securing the road between Sase and Pribicevac. A military
24 convoy or some military personnel were supposed to travel along that
25 road, although I don't know who exactly.
1 Q. As far as you remember, who was in that group of military
2 policemen executing that task?
3 A. I don't recall any specific names. I just know there were five
4 or six of us.
5 Q. What was your task specifically while securing the road?
6 A. Well, we had to secure the road, make it safe, so that the
7 military personnel, the officers, could go through. We were told that
8 the personnel would include General Mladic himself. It was a forested
9 area, and we were supposed to secure the road.
10 Q. How long did you stay performing that task that day?
11 A. The group of vehicles that passed through did not --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
13 repeat his answer.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness repeat his answer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stayed in that place until the
16 establishment group of officers went back. So when they returned, we
17 returned towards the evening.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let me ask you this: Please tell the Court where this column of
20 vehicles with VRS officers went at first. In what direction?
21 A. In the direction of Pribicevac, as far as I know.
22 Q. Were you performing that task all the way up until the column
23 returned from Pribicevac?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In what direction did the column travel from Pribicevac?
1 A. Towards Bratunac.
2 Q. What was your task the next day, on the 12th of July?
3 A. On the 12th of July, I don't know who went exactly, but we were
4 in Potocari where the Muslim population surrendered and where the
5 prisoners were transported. We provided security to General Mladic in
6 the outer parameter. We were not in his immediate detail.
7 Q. To the best of your recollection, please tell the Court what was
8 the time of day on the 12th of July when you arrived Potocari?
9 A. I don't know exactly. It was sometime in the afternoon. Midday
11 Q. What do you remember, in terms of events in Potocari?
12 A. What I remember is that there were many refugees; women,
13 children, other people. I remember that General Mladic addressed them.
14 He talked to them, telling them that they would be taken to the place
15 they wanted to go. I think he gave some drink and food to some of them.
16 Q. Did you observe any UN or UNPROFOR members close by?
17 A. Yes, they were there.
18 Q. Were they engaged in any activity while you were in Potocari in
19 terms of escorting -- while you were there escorting General Mladic?
20 A. I don't know what they were doing. I just noticed they were
22 Q. While you were there, was the population supplied with food,
23 water, or any other necessity?
24 A. I observed that General Mladic himself gave them something. He
25 threw packs of juice in the crowd, but that was all I could see at the
2 Q. Were there any other VRS officers, commanding personnel, in
3 Potocari at the time?
4 A. Yes, but I don't know who they were.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked
6 to approach the microphone. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you come a bit closer to the
8 microphone, please.
9 Perhaps if the chair -- the back of the chair would be adjusted,
10 it would be easier for the witness to ...
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I continue,
13 Your Honour?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. How long did you stay in Potocari?
17 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps two to three hours.
18 Q. While you were there, did you notice if there were any
19 able-bodied men in the crowd of people gathered there?
20 A. I think there were.
21 Q. Did you notice that there was any separation of those men from
22 the elderly, children and women?
23 A. I did not.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 Q. Please tell the Court how long you stayed in Potocari? What was
1 the time of day when you left?
2 A. I think we returned to Bratunac sometime in the afternoon. I
3 don't know precisely when. I don't recall such details any longer.
4 Q. The next day, if you can tell us to the best of your
5 recollection, what was your task?
6 A. The next day, I and a group of military policemen went with
7 General Mladic to Srebrenica via Potocari. That is how we reached
9 Q. As a member of the MP platoon, who issued tasks to you
11 A. I don't remember that since I have no particular duty. We
12 probably received it from the commander.
13 Q. Who commanded the MP platoon at the time in the Bratunac Brigade?
14 A. I think it was Mirko Jankovic.
15 Q. Do you know someone named Momir Nikolic?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. What was his duty at the time, his position?
18 A. As far as I know, he was a security officer in charge of security
20 Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any point in
22 A. I did not, but I can't speak for others.
23 Q. When you say you knew Momir Nikolic, can you describe for the
24 Court what was the extent of your acquaintance? How long did you know
1 A. Only during the time I was in the military police. I didn't know
2 him before that.
3 Q. Thank you. When following General Mladic while he was on the
4 move, what did you use? How did you move?
5 A. We used a military vehicle behind General Mladic's vehicle. Ours
6 was called Pinzgauer.
7 Q. Can you remember how many members of the MP platoon were included
8 in that task?
9 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps five or six.
10 Q. Do you remember whether on that second day the column, including
11 you and General Mladic, stopped in Potocari?
12 A. We did not stop. We just passed through Potocari.
13 Q. Did you at any point in time move towards Suceska and Vijogor
15 A. We did.
16 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I was a bit slow to react just
17 because there's not a great space between the question and answer, but we
18 are entering substantive matters and that was a leading question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you refrain from leading from now on,
20 Mr. Stojanovic. Even if there's no objection, it may not strengthen the
21 probative value of the testimony of the witness if you continually put
22 leading questions to him. But now there is an objection and specifically
23 related to -- to the stage we're now moving to.
24 So would you please refrain and proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell the Court what you remember in terms of
2 visiting those two locations?
3 A. What I remember is that we were in Srebrenica in front of the
4 municipal building, the church, and that we went to that settlement of
5 Suceska or in its direction. I don't know exactly. Close to a gas
6 station, we took on board some women, elderly Muslim women. That's what
7 I remember.
8 Q. Why did you bring them inside your vehicle?
9 A. General Mladic personally ordered us to do so. They were in
10 front of the building sitting down exhausted. They were all elderly, and
11 we were told to take them inside our vehicle and drop them off in
12 Potocari close to the UN compound.
13 Q. Did those elderly exhausted women ask to be taken to Potocari?
14 A. I don't remember them asking. They were old women. They didn't
15 ask for anything. We simply took them on board and drove off.
16 Q. What were your movements following your visit to the locations
17 you mentioned a moment ago?
18 A. I think we returned to Bratunac --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you shouldn't speak aloud. You know
20 that. So refrain from doing that.
21 I see that there may be a problem that there's no other counsel
22 available. I would say if one, perhaps, of your team, Mr. Stojanovic,
23 could keep a close eye on Mr. Mladic that if he wants to consult, that he
24 can give a hint without speaking aloud because that's not acceptable.
25 Could you please do that.
1 It seems to me that Mr. Mladic, at this moment, wants to consult
2 with you. At the same time, we are so close to the time for a break that
3 we could consider to take that break now so that you have an ample
4 opportunity do that. But whatever consultations will take place, not at
5 an audible volume.
6 Would you like to take the break now?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. We may
8 take a break now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.
10 We'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd like to see you back
11 after the break, Witness.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break, and we'll resume at ten minutes
15 past midday.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Andric, we stopped at one point when you were telling us
23 about your second visit to Srebrenica and when you were in front of the
24 church and then passed through Potocari.
25 Would you please tell me whether someone entered the church in
1 Srebrenica on that occasion, to visit it?
2 A. I only went to the door and looked inside. I don't know whether
3 anyone else entered.
4 Q. Did you notice anything that was typical on the building itself?
5 A. It was devastated; a badly damaged church. I don't know
7 Q. Would you please tell me whether there was anything
8 characteristic that you remember about the events in and around the
9 church at that point while you were visiting the church?
10 A. I only glanced inside. I heard from others that it was
11 devastated. I did not enter, and I had heard that cattle was kept in the
12 church too.
13 Q. Were any shots fired or heard at any moment?
14 A. No.
15 Q. After Srebrenica, where did you travel on?
16 A. Bratunac.
17 Q. What was your next task on that day?
18 A. I don't remember exactly. I think that we were carrying out
19 usual everyday activities, but I don't remember.
20 Q. Could you tell me where you spent the afternoon after you
21 returned from Srebrenica?
22 A. I don't know exactly. I can't remember. I know that we were
23 also in front of the church in Bratunac, in front of the brigade command.
24 And after that, unless I'm wrong about the dates, I think that we set out
25 towards Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica.
1 Q. Could you tell us to the best of your recollection what time of
2 day was it when you set out towards Vlasenica?
3 A. I think it was in the afternoon, but I wouldn't know the exact
5 Q. Did you stop anywhere before Vlasenica?
6 A. Yes. At a location after Kravica. I think it's called Sandici.
7 Q. What was going on there that made you stop?
8 A. There were some Muslim forces that had surrendered.
9 General Mladic stopped there and addressed them. He gave a speech. He
10 told them that as the people, they were not to blame, that the
11 authorities, their commanders and presidents, were to blame. He asked
12 them where they wished to go, to which territory. He requested that
13 buses be provided and that they be transported to the territory where
14 they wished to go.
15 Q. How long did you stay there in the area of the Sandici village,
16 as far as you know?
17 A. I don't think it was long, 20 minutes at most, but I don't know
19 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber how many prisoners were there,
20 in your estimate?
21 A. I think perhaps 3- or 400 people, but I can't know. I did not
22 count them.
23 Q. As for those people, were they secured?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were guarding the
2 A. No.
3 Q. In which direction did you move after this?
4 A. We moved in the direction of Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we go, can I just ask one
6 clarification, sir.
7 Sir, did the buses that General Mladic ordered arrive while you
8 were still there?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber where you stopped next.
13 A. The next stop was at a location called Kasaba, before Milici.
14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber in more detail what sort of location
15 it was where you stopped.
16 A. It's a place before Milici - I think it was a football pitch -
17 and that was where we stopped.
18 Q. What happened after you stopped there?
19 A. General Mladic also addressed those. There was a similar number
20 of those who were taken prisoner. He gave them the same speech, a
21 similar one to the one he had given in Sandici. That was how he
22 addressed these people too. From there, we continued on towards
24 Q. Could you tell us whether you were able to hear what
25 General Mladic said at the football pitch in Kasaba?
1 A. Well, he told them that they had been betrayed, that their
2 commander Naser Oric had sold them, betrayed them, something along those
3 lines, that as people they were not guilty at all, that politics pursued
4 by their president were to blame. I don't remember anything else.
5 Q. Did you notice if anyone was abused or mistreated or if any of
6 the prisoners were beaten?
7 A. No. I didn't notice, and nothing like that took place.
8 Q. In your estimate, how long did you stay there?
9 A. It was a very short stop; up to 20 minutes.
10 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber in which direction you
11 continued your journey and how far did you go?
12 A. In the direction of Vlasenica.
13 Q. Did you stop in Vlasenica?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. Where did you stop and where were you personally?
16 A. We were in front of a building. I think it was some command. We
17 went there to have lunch. And we waited for General Mladic there, in
18 front of the building.
19 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long did you stay in
21 A. Oh, I can't remember. Maybe an hour.
22 Q. In what vehicle did you escort the vehicle that General Mladic
23 was in, on that day?
24 A. It was a Pinzgauer vehicle.
25 Q. Do you know what General Mladic did in this building in
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Was it a military building?
4 A. I think so.
5 Q. Where did you go after that?
6 A. We moved on, towards Han Pijesak, and we were providing escort.
7 Q. How far did you escort General Mladic?
8 A. We escorted him to the gas station at the entrance to the town of
9 Han Pijesak itself, I think.
10 Q. And what happened there?
11 A. He stopped there to refuel his vehicle and ours. He said
12 good-bye to us and ordered us to return to the brigade command.
13 Q. Did you do so?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you return to the
16 brigade command that evening?
17 A. I don't know exactly, but it was during the night.
18 Q. Mr. Andric, during this trip from Bratunac via Sandici,
19 Konjevic Polje, Kasaba, and Vlasenica, did you at any moment while
20 stopping notice Momir Nikolic?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Did you at any moment during the trip hear from someone else from
23 the escort that General Mladic met Momir Nikolic on that day along this
25 A. No, I didn't hear that.
1 Q. Mr. Andric, please tell us, to the best of your recollection,
2 when you passed by the football pitch in Kasaba on your way back, could
3 you notice whether there were any prisoners there still?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. When you passed by Sandici, or rather through Sandici during that
6 evening, do you remember whether the prisoners were still in the same
7 location which you have described when you were moving towards Vlasenica?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett.
9 MR. GILLETT: Before the witness's answer, again in the revised
10 summary there's no detailed information about his observations on the
11 return to Bratunac. There's no information directing me as to what could
12 potentially come out.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's correct.
15 But it's a summary, and I think that this question is substantial and
16 very detailed. There are other issues that are not included in the
17 summary that we have provided. I don't see what's disputable about that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what is disputable is not that the question is
19 not detailed but the issue is whether in your 65 ter summary you covered
20 the subjects you would ask the witness about, and Mr. Gillett, I think,
21 refers to that.
22 MR. GILLETT: And if I may, the only sentence even vaguely
23 referring to this is where it says -- it's the second-last paragraph of
24 the summary. It says:
25 "After the meeting that General Mladic had in command in
1 Vlasenica, they continued the General's escort to Han Pijesak where they
2 stopped, poured fuel, and then by the General's orders went back in
4 Then it goes on to the witness's comments about Momir Nikolic.
5 So there's simply no indication of facts that could come from this
6 witness on which we could prepare for the cross-examination.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are -- it is hereby on the record. If it
8 will have any further consequences as far as your preparation is
9 concerned, Mr. Gillett, then, of course, we'll ...
10 Mr. Stojanovic, you're giving the impression that you consider it
11 not that relevant. The Chamber considers this to be relevant. But for
12 the time being, please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
14 finish with one additional question.
15 Q. Mr. Andric, that evening, upon arrival to Bratunac, did you
16 submit a report to anyone, you or any of the other members of the
17 military police group? I mean, did you report about discharging the task
18 that you carried out on that day?
19 A. I didn't, and I don't know about the others.
20 Q. Mr. Andric, thank you for answering my questions. At this point
21 we have no further questions for you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 Mr. Andric, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Gillett. You
25 find him to your right. Mr. Gillett is counsel for the Prosecution.
1 You may proceed.
2 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Andric. I'm going ask you a few questions.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. If any of them are unclear, please let me know and I'll do my
7 best to revise them.
8 Firstly, you mentioned in direct testimony stopping at Sandici
9 during the escort mission with Mladic; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You've previously given statements to the authorities in Bosnia;
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32386 on the monitor.
15 And if we go to page 1. For this document, the pages in B/C/S and
16 English should be the same.
17 Q. Now, if we look at page 1, we see the date of this statement is
18 29 June 2006.
19 MR. GILLETT: And, Your Honours, these documents were recently
20 received from the BiH authorities. One being as we understand the
21 original in B/C/S, and a translation by the BH authorities in English.
22 And where there are slight discrepancies between the original and the
23 translation, I'll endeavour to address those with the witness where
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, as you suggest.
1 MR. GILLETT:
2 Q. Now we see under the title "attendees," that the prosecutor is
3 Kwai Hong Ip and several other people are present at the interview. And
4 we see in the B/C/S version, the original, at the top that the word
5 "Sarajevo" is crossed out and "Tuzla" is written there. Does this
6 indicate that the interview took place in Tuzla?
7 A. Are you asking me?
8 Q. Correct, yes.
9 A. Well, interviews were conducted both in Sarajevo and in Tuzla.
10 Q. Do you recollect whether this interview was conducted in Tuzla as
11 it appears to indicate on the B/C/S original?
12 A. I don't know. I can't confirm that. I know that I gave a
13 statement in Sarajevo and also another one in Tuzla. That's all I know.
14 MR. GILLETT: If we could go to page 6 in the B/C/S version.
15 Q. We see your signature with the names -- with the words "svedok"
16 underneath. Is that your signature?
17 A. I think, yes.
18 Q. You told the truth during this interview, correct, that we're
19 seeing on the monitor?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, in the statement --
22 MR. GILLETT: And if we could go to paragraph 2 which is on page
23 3 --
24 Q. -- you describe in the statement events in Sandici during the
25 escort mission with General Mladic. And I'm going to read to you what
1 you state.
2 This is at paragraph 2. It states:
3 "On 13 July 1995, when I was on the Sandici meadow,
4 General Mladic talked to the prisoners who were collected there. In that
5 area I saw between 400 and 500 men. I heard Mladic telling these
6 prisoners that he would provide buses for them to go where they wished.
7 I got the impression that this speech as well as the circumstances had
8 been staged because the buses appeared almost at the same time. As soon
9 as the buses arrived, I heard Mladic shouting, 'All of you get in the
10 bus!' About two to three buses arrived. I did not notice either
11 journalists, TV cameras, or reporters in the Sandici meadow."
12 Sir, do you stand by that statement in paragraph 2?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Sir, if you could explain? A few moments ago, you were asked by
15 Judge Moloto whether the buses arrived at Sandici meadow while you were
16 present, and this is at temporary transcript page 49, your response was:
17 No. Can you explain this discrepancy?
18 A. I can explain that a lot of time passed -- passed since, and at
19 this point in time, right now, I cannot remember every detail to say
20 whether they had arrived or not. Perhaps at the moment when I gave this
21 statement, I remembered that they had arrived. But now, I don't know.
22 Q. And your recollection was better in 2006 than it is today in
23 2015; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm going to refer to some other
1 paragraphs of this statement. I wonder if I could tender it to get an
2 exhibit number now so that we have a consistent number throughout the
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll reserve a number for it, and do you want to
5 tender the whole of the statement after that?
6 MR. GILLETT: Correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We could already reserve a number. And then after
8 you've dealt with all the portions, there will be an opportunity to raise
9 any objections against admission.
10 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
11 THE REGISTRAR: The number reserved for document would be P7295,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll later decide on admission. But before we
15 Witness, when Judge Moloto earlier asked you whether the buses
16 that General Mladic ordered arrived while you were still there, your
17 answer was no. I now understand that your answer is: I don't remember
18 whether they did or not.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be very precise in telling us
21 exactly what you do not remember or whether you have a clear recollection
22 what happened. Because here we might have been misled by you answering
23 that those buses did not arrive, whereas we now understand you just don't
24 remember whether they arrived when you were still there.
25 Could you please keep that in mind when answering any further
2 Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.
3 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. If we look at paragraph 3, the first few sentences read the
6 "After Mladic's speaking to the prisoners, I received the
7 information from one of my colleagues, I do not remember from whom, that
8 General Mladic spoke to some commanders who were on the Sandici meadow.
9 I saw General Mladic speaking so some officers. I assumed they were
10 commanders because Mladic would never speak to anyone of the lower rank.
11 These officers were wearing two to three different types of uniforms. It
12 is difficult to say, but some of them were wearing blue one-piece
13 uniforms. Perhaps they were the special police."
14 So if I understand this correctly, you saw Mladic speaking to
15 some officers at Sandici meadow; correct?
16 A. I don't remember precisely at this moment.
17 Q. I'm trying to understand the statement in front of me. It
18 indicates to me that you said that you saw the officers that Mladic was
19 speaking to and that you thought they were commanders because Mladic
20 would -- would not speak to people of a low rank.
21 Could you help us? Is that a way of understanding what is in
22 your statement?
23 A. It is possible, but I don't remember any particular details.
24 Q. Sir, could we get 65 ter number 32390 on the monitor.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before this document moves off, did you know any
1 of the officers that Mr. Mladic was talking to?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. If we could get 65 ter document which
5 should be a photo, 32390.
6 Q. And if we look at the ERN in the corner, this is the same ERN
7 that is indicated in a lower portion of the statement that we were just
8 looking at. Now, the soldiers that you saw at Sandici were wearing
9 uniforms like this, some of them; correct?
10 A. There were different types of uniform. I don't know exactly what
11 kind of uniform they wore.
12 Q. Were some of them wearing uniforms that looked like the uniforms
13 in this picture?
14 A. I don't remember precisely. I think so. Possibly.
15 Q. The one closest to the camera in the foreground, do you recall
16 him being present at Sandici meadow?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 MR. GILLETT: Could we go back to the statement, which is now
19 with exhibit number P7295, temporarily assigned. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What would you like to do with the photograph shown
21 to the witness?
22 MR. GILLETT: I was just going to first go to the paragraph of
23 the statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll see.
25 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Again, looking at paragraph 3, if we see the third-last sentence,
2 it says -- I believe it's the third- or fourth-last sentence:
3 "I was shown the photo number 0216-4758. These are the types of
4 uniforms which men who were on the Sandici meadow wore. Most of the
5 Bratunac Brigade members did not have such uniforms."
6 Does that refresh your recollection, that you saw people wearing
7 the types of uniforms in the picture that we've just seen at Sandici
9 A. There were different kinds of uniform. In all likelihood, there
10 were such uniforms as the ones you are showing me on the photograph.
11 Q. Well, sir, standing here now, is it correct or is it not correct
12 what is written in your statement in front of us, that there were people
13 wearing these types of uniforms at Sandici meadow?
14 A. I think there were some such uniforms.
15 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter document, this
16 picture, 32390.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32390 receives number P7296,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much. I just note for the record
22 that another photograph referred to in that paragraph under the number
23 0217-4734 [sic] on our understanding according to the ERN is already
24 admitted as P1148 at page 120.
25 Q. Mr. Andric, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the
1 continuation of your escort mission with Mladic now.
2 Now, you said at temporary transcript page 49 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could --
4 MR. GILLETT:
5 Q. -- that stopping at Sandici the next stop was at Kasaba, at the
6 football field. Do you recall saying that a moment ago?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to -- sorry. If we stay with the
9 same statement and turn across the page to paragraph 8, which should be
10 on page 4.
11 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, Mr. Gillett, the
12 number you referred to on line 19, page 60, starts with 0217, whereas I
13 see all the documents referred in that paragraph started with 0216. Is
14 there any possibility that you misspoke?
15 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, I did
16 misspeak on that. 0216 should be the initial digit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
19 Q. Sir, looking at paragraph 8 of the statement, it reads -- in
20 fact, apologies. If we could go back to paragraph 7 just to provide the
21 context here. If we go back a page.
22 And if we see in paragraph 7, the opening sentence talks about
23 after Mladic leaving Sandici, you following him in a military vehicle.
24 And then if we turn over to paragraph 8, on the next page, it states:
25 "As we were approaching the cross-roads towards Konjevic Polje, I
1 saw that Mladic stopped his vehicle approximately 100 metres before the
2 cross-roads. The vehicle I was in was around 20 to 30 metres away from
3 Mladic's vehicle. I saw that Mladic got out of the vehicle and spoke to
4 a group of 20 soldiers."
5 It then continues. Paragraph 9 refers to a technical matter.
6 And then paragraph 10, the first sentence says:
7 "We stayed in Konjevic Polje for about ten minutes."
8 And then it states:
9 "After leaving Konjevic Polje, we headed to Nova Kasaba and
10 stopped on the football pitch."
11 So, in fact, the next stop on the escort mission was at
12 Konjevic Polje, not Nova Kasaba; correct?
13 A. We did not get out of the vehicle. He did stop his vehicle and
14 got out, but we stayed inside. We were a part of the column. As for any
15 further details, in terms of how it happened, well, after this much time,
16 I can't recall any.
17 Q. Sir, my question wasn't about whether you got out of the vehicle.
18 It was about whether the next stop on the escort mission was at
19 Konjevic Polje. And it's true, that was the next stop of the escort
20 mission, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So what you said earlier at temporary transcript page 49 in
23 relation to Konjevic Polje was incorrect, because it omitted the stop at
24 Konjevic Polje.
25 A. I don't know. That's what you think.
1 Q. Well, I'm not asking for your observations on what I think. I'm
2 asking for an answer to the question. What you said earlier in saying
3 that the next stop after Sandici was Kasaba was incorrect, because there
4 was a stop at Konjevic Polje. That's right, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. GILLETT: If we could now go to page 4, paragraph 12, of the
7 same statement which should still be on the screen.
8 Q. And I understand that after Kasaba, you continued on in the
9 direction of Milici; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And here's what you state:
12 "Fifteen minutes later, we started from there to Milici. On the
13 way to Milici, we stopped at the outskirts of Milici. I noticed a man
14 appearing from the woods. He was carrying a stick or a piece of wood in
15 his hand. We were moving fast and we had to stop the car abruptly. We
16 jumped out of the vehicle, and I heard Mladic shouting at him, What are
17 you doing, why aren't you fighting?! Then I saw Mladic ordering," and I
18 understand in B/C/S this says his body-guards, "to slap that man several
19 times. This man was old and I assume that he was a local. This happened
20 20 to 30 metres in front of me. I saw Mladic ordering this man to take
21 off his underpants to check whether that man was Muslim."
22 Do you stand by what is written here in paragraph 12 of your
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If we then look to paragraph 14, we see that after the stop in
1 Vlasenica, you continued on the road and you stopped in front of a
2 building where there was some policemen. And this what is you state in
3 paragraph 14.
4 MR. GILLETT: This is pages 4 through to 5.
5 Q. "We left Vlasenica and headed to Han Pijesak. We stopped in
6 front of a building, I think it was in Han Pogled. I saw 20 to 30 civil
7 policemen sitting. They carried automatic guns. They were young men. I
8 saw Mladic getting out of his vehicle. Then I saw a man who seemed to be
9 the commander of that police unit approaching Mladic. Mladic shouted at
10 this commander saying what are you doing here? You are lying there while
11 other soldiers are getting killed! Why don't you go to the nearby hills
12 and wait there on Muslim forces coming from Srebrenica?! They will find
13 you here and cut your throats. Then Mladic ordered his bodyguard to slap
14 this commander five times. The bodyguard did so and then Mladic started
15 to shout at his bodyguard saying" --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down, otherwise it's very
17 complicated to follow.
18 MR. GILLETT: Apologies.
19 Q. "The bodyguard did so and then Mladic started shouting at his
20 body-guard saying slap him five times, and then he said why don't you hit
21 him harder Serb motherfucker. He would otherwise slap him five times.
22 Then the body-guard slapped him another five times. Then the policemen
23 went to the woods."
24 These policemen that you saw were Bosnian Serb policemen; right?
25 A. Yes, I think so.
1 Q. And when you say that Mladic told the body-guard to hit the
2 commander harder and that he would do it otherwise, that means Mladic
3 would slap the commander if the body-guard didn't slap him. Is that the
4 correct understanding of what you state?
5 A. I don't know what he thought. That's what he said.
6 Q. I'm interested in what he said. In what he said, did Mladic mean
7 that if the body-guard did not slap him harder, that Mladic would slap
8 him harder? Is that a correct understanding?
9 A. I don't think it was Mladic who would slap the man. I think it
10 would be Mladic slapping the body-guard.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. And you stand by this
12 paragraph of your statement; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now you continue to state that after seeing the policemen in
15 Han Pogled, Mladic went to the main road and stopped traffic. And I'm
16 moving to paragraph 15 here of the statement, which reads:
17 "After this, Mladic went to the main road and stopped the traffic
18 which was flowing there. I cannot remember how many vehicles he stopped,
19 but those were Serb civilians. One of the vehicles was returning from
20 the funeral, and people in that vehicle were dressed in black. A woman
21 was crying and Mladic told her, I don't care about the funeral. It makes
22 no sense to cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a piece of wood, and
23 kill Turks. Then he told all people who got out of the car which
24 included women, too, shouting at them, Go to the woods, pick a piece of
25 wood or a stick, go to the hills, and try to ambush Muslims coming from
1 Srebrenica. I cannot recall if he called these Muslims from Srebrenica
2 Muslims or Turks. However, he must probably said Turks. Serb civilians
3 were surprised but nevertheless they went to the woods."
4 Sir, the main road you're referring to is the road between
5 Vlasenica and Han Pijesak; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when Mladic said to the crying women, "I don't care about the
8 funeral. It makes no sense to cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a
9 piece of wood, and kill Turks," how were you able to hear that?
10 A. I could hear it because I was very close and he spoke loudly.
11 But I don't think he said so word for word. He said something to the
12 effect that the Turks should be stopped in their passage. It is possible
13 that I phrased it the way it is in the statement at the time, but I don't
14 remember any specific details right now.
15 Q. Sir, by "Turks," Mladic was referring to Bosnian Muslims;
17 A. Probably.
18 Q. And this was quite a memorable event stopping the funeral
19 vehicle; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You've already told us that your recollection was better in 2006
22 when this statement was taken, so in fact it's correct that he said to
23 the crying women, "I don't care about the funeral. It makes no sense to
24 cry. Go to the woods, pick a stone or a piece of wood, and kill Turks,"
25 that's correct as written in your signed statement, isn't it?
1 A. It is possible that it is how it happened.
2 Q. My -- sir --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No -- no audible speaking.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions about a different topic,
7 which is events at the -- I see Your Honour has an intervention.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I just wanted to take a look at paragraph 20
9 of this document, and I just wanted to find out from the witness --
10 Sir, you're mentioning a number of people who were with you on
11 the 13th of July on this Pinzgauer. One of them is Mitrovic. Can you
12 remember his first name?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mitrovic? I think his first name
14 was Milovan.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do you remember the first name of Jakovljevic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Boro.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then do you remember the surname of Bosko?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you remember the first name of Nikolic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember who else was
23 there. I do remember that Mitrovic was there and Jakovljevic.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In this, paragraph you are saying, let me read it
25 to you:
1 "I'm not sure who was in the Pinzgauer with me on the 13th of
2 July 1995 except for Mitrovic and Jakovljevic, whom I have mentioned.
3 However, it may include Bosko, perhaps Nikolic, and Nenad Jokic."
4 Do you remember Nenad Jokic being there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not right now.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you remember Bosko's surname?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you remember Nikolic's first name?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't. I haven't seen most of
10 them in 20 years. I only see Boro Jankovic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps in order to avoid whatever confusion.
13 Irrespective of whether you remember that Nikolic was there, you
14 apparently had on your mind a certain person by the name of Nikolic. Do
15 you remember his first name? So even if he wasn't there, what the first
16 name of Nikolic is.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Perhaps if I had a
18 list of military policemen, I might be able to tell you who there was
19 with the last name of Nikolic. But off the cuff, I don't remember.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And do I understand then that you saw mainly
21 military policemen there?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that Nikolic, irrespective of whether he was
24 there, that you knew him as a military policeman?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know there was a Nikolic whose
1 first name I don't recall who was a member of the military police.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the one had you on your mind when you
3 said that perhaps he may have been there?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed -- no. Let's take a break first. That's better.
7 Witness, we'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20
8 minutes from now.
9 And Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud.
10 You may follow the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 1.30.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I briefly address the Prosecution.
17 There is a renewed request for a witness to be heard through
18 videolink. I think it was a -- a witness for whom a videolink was denied
19 earlier. Kelecevic. Yes.
20 When could the Prosecutor -- Prosecution respond to that request?
21 MR. TIEGER: Probably within about one minute. I'm virtually
22 certain I know the answer. Let me confirm with an e-mail, and I can
23 certainly get back to the Court before the end of the session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the organising and scheduling
25 videolinks is not one of the easiest things to do, and the sooner we can
1 start with it the better it would be. It's appreciated.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: The motion I just referred to was confidential.
4 Therefore, I shouldn't have done that in open session. At the same time,
5 we didn't touch upon any of the content which has caused the
6 confidentiality of that motion. Therefore, there's no need to take any
7 specific measures at this moment.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett, if you're ready, please proceed.
10 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
11 Q. Mr. Andric, before the break, we were referring to the reference
12 in your statement to a Nikolic. Now, if we could get document --
13 65 ter document 46477b if that's -- if we could get 4677, 65 ter
14 document, and go to page 130.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the number again?
16 MR. GILLETT: 4677, 65 ter.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It's now correctly recorded.
18 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
19 Q. Now what is coming up should be a list of personnel from the
20 Bratunac Brigade, and if we can to page 130, we should see that this is
21 for July 1995 at the top.
22 MR. GILLETT: And, Your Honours, we're just in the process of
23 adding an English translation. But as you'll see, it's essentially a
24 list of names.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, could you confirm that this says at the top
1 July 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if we go across to page 131, so the following page, we see
4 yourself listed Andric, Srecka Pero, with VP, indicating military police;
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. Well, do you see it --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we enlarge it, the relevant portion?
9 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. It's about a quarter of the way down
10 the list.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the top.
12 MR. GILLETT: Near the top.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we see the entire top?
14 MR. GILLETT:
15 Q. Do you see yourself listed there?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Now, if we could go to page 149, and near the -- near the top,
18 it's about eight names down, we see a Bosko Nikolic, also listed with VP.
19 Is that possibly the Nikolic that you were referring to in your
21 A. I can't see Bosko written here anywhere. Oh, yes. Yes, yes,
22 Nikolic, father's name Vukota.
23 Q. So it's possible that is the person you were referring to that we
24 were discussing before the break.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, we would tender this -- what will
2 become once we've made an excerpt of it, 65 ter document 4677b. And if
3 it's not ready yet, we could deal with that on the close of the witness's
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections? It's ...
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we reserve a number already. The excerpt will
9 be assigned 65 ter number 4677b, and the number to be reserved once it's
10 there and if we decide on admission would be?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7297, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.
13 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Andric, on the evening after your escort mission with Mladic,
15 which I understand to be 13 July, you returned to Bratunac; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And once you got to Bratunac, Momir Nikolic ordered the military
18 police of the Bratunac Brigade to go to the Vuk Karadzic school and
19 assist those who were securing the prisoners in that area; right?
20 A. Possibly it was so.
21 Q. Are you saying, yes, or no, or you don't recall?
22 A. I don't recall that he ordered personally, but I remember that
23 military police did go there.
24 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32391. And
25 Your Honours, while this comes up, this is a transcript of the witness's
1 testimony at the BiH Court, and if we could go to page 12 in English,
2 which is page 13 in B/C/S.
3 Q. And, sir, here you're describing the time when you came back to
4 Bratunac after the escort mission, and you were asked:
5 "And what happens there next, there in front of the command in
6 terms of your group. Were you assigned to any activities, tasks?"
7 And your response:
8 "Well, the group was tasked to go and provide assistance,
9 practically to others who were providing security at or around school in
10 Bratunac. I don't recall the" --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett, you're reading, and that's where you
12 usually gain too much speed.
13 MR. GILLETT: Apologies.
14 Q. I'll start this again:
15 "Q. And what happens there next, there in front of the command in
16 terms of your group? Were you assigned to any other activities, tasks?
17 "A. Well, the group was tasked to go on provide assistance,
18 practically to others who were providing security at or around school in
19 Bratunac. I don't recall the exact name but I believe the name is
20 Vuk Karadzic. To my recollection, this order came from Momir Nikolic.
21 He was the one to issue it - the order that we should go and provide
22 assistance to other soldiers and our fellow colleagues who most probably
23 were there in front of the school."
24 Does that refresh your memory as to being ordered by
25 Momir Nikolic?
1 A. No, I don't remember.
2 MR. GILLETT: If we go to page 29.
3 Q. You were then asked a follow-up question to clarify. And the
4 second question down, we see in the English - this should be page 30 in
5 B/C/S - is:
6 "Yes, Your Honour, I would ask the witness because it's unclear
7 to me, once he returned from Han Pijesak, the witness told that it was
8 upon the order of Momir Nikolic for the police ... for the military
9 police to go and secure ... and provide security there. From whom did he
10 hear this?
11 "Q. Did you understand this or not?"
12 Response -- and if we can go over the page in B/C/S.
13 "A. To my recollection, Momir Nikolic personally issued this.
14 Who else was in my company, I don't recall.
15 "Q. Hold on a second. Let us clarify. On your return to
16 Bratunac, to the command, from Han Pijesak, did you find Momir Nikolic
18 "A. I believe so, yes.
19 "Q. Did you hear that from Momir Nikolic directly?
20 "A. Yes."
21 Sir, you were ordered by Momir Nikolic to go to the Vuk Karadzic
22 school after the escort mission; correct.
23 A. I don't remember now.
24 Q. Earlier today --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask --
1 Witness, when you testified in the BiH Court, did you tell the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And do you -- have you any reasons to say that what
5 you told at that time is not true?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think there is any.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we have the year in which this testimony
8 was given? It's in the introduction. I think you didn't mention it
10 MR. GILLETT: It's on -- it's 2008, according to our
12 JUDGE ORIE: 2008, yes. Please -- that's at least how you
13 introduce it.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Andric, earlier today, you were asked at temporary transcript
17 page 43:
18 "Q. Do you know someone named Momir Nikolic?
19 "A. I do.
20 "Q. What was his duty at the time, his position?
21 "A. As far as I know, he was a security officer in charge of
22 security affairs.
23 "Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any
24 point in time?
25 "A. I did not" --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should not speak aloud. It's the last
2 warning, Mr. Mladic. You're removed from the courtroom if it happens
3 again. Let that be clear.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. GILLETT: I'll repeat the question, and this is line 23:
6 "Q. Did you receive specific orders or tasks from him at any
7 point in time?
8 "A. I did not -- I did not but I can't speak for others."
9 Q. Sir, in light of what you've just told us, that testimony was
10 incorrect. In fact, you don't remember whether Momir Nikolic gave you
11 orders; right?
12 A. I don't remember anymore.
13 Q. Sir, you went to the area near the Vuk Karadzic school in
14 Bratunac on the evening of 13 July after the escort mission with Mladic;
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32388, please.
18 Q. And while that's coming out, you're aware that members of the
19 Bratunac Brigade military police took the Pinzgauer vehicle and parked it
20 in front of the Vuk Karadzic school; right?
21 A. Yes, that vehicle was parked in front of the school.
22 Q. And it was taken there by members of the Bratunac Brigade
23 military police; right?
24 A. Probably. I didn't travel in it, but probably they did.
25 Q. If we look at the statement in front of us, we see it's from
1 28 February 2007, and again under attendees the prosecutor is
2 Kwai Hong Ip asking questions. Now, if we go to page -- page 7 in the
3 B/C/S original, we can see some photos attached to the statement. These
4 should be colour photographs. And this first photograph at the top shows
5 the street in the centre of Bratunac heading towards the Vuk Karadzic
6 school; right.
7 A. I know the school but not the street.
8 Q. Is this the Vuk Karadzic school, to your recollection?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which, Mr. Gillett?
10 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, let me specify.
11 Q. Is the light building at the end of the street perpendicular to
12 the road that we can see the school in Bratunac, to your recollection?
13 A. I think so, but I don't know to this day what it's called. I
14 know where it is it located, but there are two or three schools there.
15 Q. Then if we go back to paragraph 4 of your statement, which should
16 be on page 4 of this.
17 MR. GILLETT: And again, the English and B/C/S should be the same
18 page numbers.
19 Q. At paragraph 4, we see that you state:
20 "I was shown the photograph with PA/1 and I signed and dated it.
21 That is a photograph of Bratunac town centre. I marked with a green
22 marker the locations where the vehicles and trucks were."
23 MR. GILLETT: And just for Your Honours, we haven't got to that
24 photo yet, but I'm reading the part of the statement together.
25 Q. You continue:
1 "I saw those buses and trucks. I heard and saw people in
2 Vuk Karadzic school, but I did not go inside. The windows were open. I
3 also heard that there were other Bosnian Muslims on the stadium and that
4 they were secured there as well as those people in the vehicles. There
5 were many people around the vehicles, soldiers and some of my colleagues.
6 I do not remember who among my colleagues were there. Men of military
7 age were called up to secure vehicles and buildings" --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go to the next page in the English, please.
9 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. And next page in B/C/S, I believe.
10 Q. It continues:
11 "I noticed young men of 15 and 16 years of age, Serbs who were
12 armed, and who helped securing the area with buses. There were also
13 elderly men who secured the buses. The area with buses was not closed
14 and anyone could approach the buses."
15 Paragraph 5 states:
16 "I was shown photographs PA/1 and PA/3. I signed and dated them.
17 The photograph shows Vuk Karadzic school. At the photograph 4, I drew
18 with a red marker the location of Pinzgauer which I saw when I was in
19 front of the school. There were many people outside the school, minimum
20 40 people, including my colleagues and other soldiers. I do not remember
21 exactly who was there and I do not remember if anybody was on the
23 Now, if we go to page 8 of the B/C/S original, if we go one more
24 page further -- sorry. Sorry, this is the correct page. On the bottom
25 photograph, we can see the red marking made on the photo that you refer
1 to in the earlier part of your statement. That is your indication of
2 where the Pinzgauer was parked; right?
3 A. That is possible.
4 MR. GILLETT: If we go across another page, and if we could zoom
5 in on the area with the green markings made on the picture.
6 Q. Sir, these are the green markings that you referred to earlier in
7 your statement showing where the buses with the Muslim prisoners were
8 parked that night of 13 July; correct?
9 A. All this is very unclear to me.
10 Q. Is that a yes, or a no, or you don't remember?
11 A. I don't remember. I'm not familiar with this photograph, and I
12 can't interpret it.
13 Q. If we go back to page 6 of this document, we see at the bottom
14 your signature there, don't we?
15 Could you answer my question, sir. Do we see your signature --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And your recollection in 2007 when this was taken was better than
18 it is now; correct?
19 A. I don't know. How should I know if it was better or not?
20 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, at this stage that would conclude my
21 questions, and I would tender the two statements I've been referring to
22 as well as the additional exhibit referring to the Bosko Nikolic. The
23 two statements are 32387, that's the statement I was initially referring
24 to that was given temporary exhibit number P7295. The second statement
25 that we've just been referring to is 32388. And the additional exhibit
1 referring to Bosko Nikolic is 4677b, which is now uploaded in e-court.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32388 receives number P7298,
4 Your Honours.
5 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then the others, the first statement
7 had received a number already and is admitted into evidence and that was
8 number -- let me just check.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7295, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P7295 is admitted into evidence.
11 Then 4677b, which is P7297, is admitted into evidence as well.
12 And now we have the other one. Have we reserved a number for
13 that, Madam Registrar, the excerpts still to be --
14 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, this is the final statement that I was
15 referring to with the photographs attached, which is 65 ter 32388.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And 32391 you're not tendering?
17 MR. GILLETT: No, we're not tendering that.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then so 65 ter 32388, Madam Registrar, has
20 been assigned number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Number P7298, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under that number.
23 MR. GILLETT: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gillett.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any further questions
2 for the witness?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andric, let us focus our attention to the
7 part of the questions dealing with your statement provided to Mr. Ip in
8 Tuzla and Sarajevo. Either/or; you were not sure yourself where it was.
9 When passing through Konjevic Polje, did you at any point see any
10 prisoners there?
11 A. I don't remember seeing it.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P7295. I think
13 that's the number. Paragraph 8, please.
14 Q. Mr. Andric, there you say:
15 "As we were approaching the cross-roads toward Konjevic Polje, I
16 saw that Mladic stopped his vehicle approximately 100 metres before the
18 Please tell us this: Do you recall stopping at the intersection
19 itself in Konjevic Polje at any point in time en route to Zvornik or
20 Milici and Vlasenica?
21 A. I don't remember having stopped at the intersection.
22 Q. Thank you. Now having seen the document, do you stand by your
23 answer that at no point in time did you see Momir Nikolic along that
25 A. I stand by what I said, which is that I did not see him.
1 Q. Thank you. The next thing. When the Prosecutor asked you about
2 the Nikolic you mentioned whose first name you don't know but who was in
3 your company in the Pinzgauer vehicle, accompanying you to Han Pijesak,
4 having seen paragraph 20 of your statement, is it possible that
5 Momir Nikolic was with you in the Pinzgauer vehicle at any point in time
6 accompanying you to Han Pijesak?
7 A. No, that is not possible.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we go to --
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we go to paragraph 20 of this document,
11 which we have on the screen?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Can we have
13 that? I didn't want to put leading questions, but it is P7295,
14 paragraph 20 of the statement.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask the witness at this point of time
17 We discussed earlier the names contained in paragraph 20 and the
18 last sentence reads:
19 "However, it may include Bosko, perhaps Nikolic, and
20 Nenad Djokic."
21 Witness, can you tell me, is Bosko a first name or a family name?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think Bosko is a first name.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Nikolic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nikolic is a last name.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And since this is your statement, is it possible
1 that you referred to the person we have discussed earlier Bosko Nikolic?
2 Or another Nikolic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, there was no
4 other Nikolic. When you showed me a moment ago the names of the members
5 of the military police, the only possibility is this one.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Andric, did you, at any point in time, have reason to doubt
9 the words uttered by General Mladic when addressing the people at Sandici
10 and Kasaba with regard to their transport to Kladanj?
11 A. That's what he said. It wasn't up to me to comment. I did not
12 question it.
13 Q. Did General Mladic demand it of you as members of security to do
14 anything that would be unlawful, inhumane, or unfair?
15 A. No, did he not.
16 Q. As you were leaving Vlasenica, to the best of your recollection,
17 what time of day it may have been on the 13th of July? Could it have
18 been evening?
19 A. Early evening, if I remember correctly. I can't remember
21 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you pass through
22 Konjevic Polje on the 13th of July?
23 A. On the way back?
24 Q. On your way to Vlasenica.
25 A. I can't remember exactly. I think it was sometime in the
2 Q. At that point in time, inside which vehicle was General Mladic?
3 A. It was a Puch jeep, a military vehicle.
4 Q. Is it different in appearance from a passenger car, in terms of
5 its technical ability?
6 A. Of course it's different.
7 Q. Mr. Nikolic [as interpreted], you were asked today by the
8 Prosecutor about events --
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that you're not addressing Mr. Nikolic
10 as is what appears in our interpretation.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
12 I'd like to correct myself. Not Nikolic but Andric. I apologise if I
13 said Nikolic.
14 Q. So, Mr. Andric, you answered the question who ordered you to go
15 in front of the school in Bratunac, if you recalled.
16 Please tell me this: Out of all the people who provided
17 security, who did you see in front of the school; if you were able to
18 recognise anyone, and if you remember?
19 A. I don't know who you mean. The military policemen?
20 Q. Were there any civilian policemen there?
21 A. There were.
22 Q. Were there any locals, residents of Bratunac there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were there pleas made in terms of providing security for those
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were any comments made about it being an exceptionally dangerous
3 situation for Bratunac town in terms of its security?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett.
6 MR. GILLETT: That was a leading question that actually came at
7 the conclusion of a series of leading questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, you're constantly putting leading questions to
10 the witness which are you supposed not to do. I'll address this matter
11 in a second.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Andric, did you at any point in time that day observe
15 anything in the conduct of General Mladic that would be unlawful?
16 A. I did not. He addressed the prisoners. Other than that, I
17 didn't see anything else.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric, for the answers you provided.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no further
20 questions for the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 I have a few questions.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the prisoners in Potocari, what could you
25 tell about them? The prisoners on the 12th of July in Potocari.
1 A. I can tell you it is --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction I can tell you there
3 were many women, children, men.
4 A. They appeared desperate and frightened.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me interrupt you. I'm not talking
6 about women, children, unless you considered them to have been prisoners
7 at the time. But I was specifically ask you what you could tell us about
8 the prisoners in Potocari on the 12th of July, such as where were they;
9 do you know who had taken them prisoners; these kind of -- this kind of
11 A. As far as I know, they came there themselves to surrender. It
12 was as a result of some talks. Nobody brought them there or forced them
13 to come. They arrived on their own there, to the place of surrender.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But even then, even then, what made them, as far as
15 you understood the situation, what made them prisoners? If they
16 voluntarily came, reported themselves, why were they prisoners?
17 A. It is my opinion that they came there because the forces of the
18 VRS had taken the town. As part of the talks, I think they went to the
19 check-point of the UN.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Were they armed?
21 A. Do you mean the Muslim population?
22 JUDGE ORIE: The persons you described as prisoners.
23 A. They were not armed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Were they in uniform?
25 A. Perhaps a few, but I don't remember exactly how many.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Do you now -- do you know why they had become
3 A. They became prisoners because -- well, I said so already.
4 Because the army had taken that part of town and the agreement was that
5 everyone goes there to surrender. That's how it was, I think.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You mean including civilians?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And prisoners were taken from those who had
9 surrendered, including civilians?
10 A. It is not clear to me. What are you asking?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Whether those who had surrendered, which included,
12 as you said, people in civilian clothing, without arms, that they were
13 among those taken prisoner.
14 A. They came to that place. I don't know -- I don't know how to
15 explain. From there, they were taken away on buses.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you called them prisoners in your
18 A. Well, perhaps I used that term.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I have another question for you.
20 You were asked when you had left Vlasenica, whether that could
21 have been in the evening hours. You remember that? And you said it may
22 have been in the early evening. You remember that you told us that?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that you stopped in Vlasenica for
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is the end of lunch-time, is that early evening?
3 A. Well, we couldn't decide when we would have lunch.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, my question is whether you had lunch at a time
5 that it was already early evening when you had finished your lunch. Or
6 could it have been in the afternoon as well?
7 A. I don't remember. I think it was in the afternoon or in the
8 evening, but I don't remember when precisely.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
10 Any further questions, Mr. Gillett?
11 Judge Fluegge has one or more questions.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In which capacity have you been at these
13 locations on the 11th, 12th, and 13th of July 1995?
14 A. As a military policeman. Providing security for General Mladic.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Up to which point have you been member of the
16 military police platoon?
17 A. I don't recall the exact date. Perhaps until the 15th or 16th.
18 Maybe up to the 20th. I don't know.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which month?
20 A. June.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which year?
22 A. 1995.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That would mean that during that time-period,
24 mid-July, you were no longer member of the military police; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is true? Were you member of the military
2 police mid-July or not?
3 A. As I said, it was the 20th at the latest of June. So May, June,
4 July, August, if I know the sequence of months well enough.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said you were in your capacity as a military
6 police platoon member present in these locations mid-July. Now you again
7 and again say you stopped your term of office in the military police
8 already in June. I don't understand that, but I can leave it to that.
9 MR. GILLETT: I may be able to quickly try and assist with that
10 question. Very quickly. If we could --
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you could keep in mind that we are already beyond
12 2.15, and we would all try to avoid that the witness has to stay here for
13 another four or five days until we can finish with the last 5 seconds.
14 MR. GILLETT: Absolutely. If we could get 65 ter document 32387
15 on the monitor. And if we could go to page 3 of this.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:
17 Q. And, sir, this is another statement that gave to local
18 authorities in Bosnia. And if we look at paragraph 3, it says:
19 "I became a military policeman of the Bratunac Brigade in 1994,
20 and I left on 15, 16, or 17 July 1995. I don't recall when exactly."
21 Does that refresh your recollection that it was mid-July when you
22 left the Bratunac Brigade military police?
23 A. I think that what I stated then was 100 per cent wrong.
24 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Witness, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
2 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
3 answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the
4 parties, put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home again
5 and you may now follow the usher.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we adjourn, as I said before,
8 I briefly address the matter of leading questions.
9 I read one of your questions put to the witness: "As you were
10 leaving Vlasenica, to the best of your recollection, what time of the day
11 it may have been on the 13th of July? Could it have been evening? "
12 Which is as leading can be. Never heard a more clear example of
13 a leading question.
14 And then, of course, the witness followed your suggestion and
15 said: "Early evening, if I remember correctly."
16 And then I asked again about lunch time about -- and then he
17 said: "I don't know," as a matter of fact.
18 Mr. Stojanovic, by using these leading questions, you are -- you
19 take a risk of diminishing the probative value of the testimony of the
20 witness you called. So when earlier you just seemed to be not very
21 impressed by objections against leading questions, I give you this one
22 simple example and I would advise you to think it over more thoroughly
23 and perhaps to take the rule that in examination-in-chief you shouldn't
24 lead the witness more seriously.
25 We --
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I promised you a responses to your
4 earlier inquiry about the videolink motion. The Prosecution has no
6 And if I may take just 60 more seconds, I would also mention that
7 during the course of Witness Erceg's cross-examination, the Prosecution
8 used 65 ter 02780 and 18494, two documents which had inadvertently been
9 omitted from the list of exhibits. Thereafter, a discussion ensued
10 between the Prosecution and Defence. Mr. Traldi didn't immediately
11 tender those for that reason. And the Defence expressed no objection to
12 their tendering. So we can either formally tender them at the beginning
13 of the court session on Tuesday or we do so now, as the Court wishes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I'd prefer to do it on Tuesday
15 because we're already so far beyond the court time, and of course we did
16 it because the Easter weekend is coming up.
17 MR. TIEGER: That would be fine.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I didn't even ask permission to continue
19 to the booth assisting us. That's a failure. I should have done that.
20 But it's nevertheless highly appreciated that you made it possible for us
21 to conclude the testimony of this witness before the weekend.
22 I do understand, by the way, by a gesture of Mr. Mladic that he
23 would like to consult most likely with Mr. Stojanovic. It should be done
24 very quickly.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently nothing to be raised. Consultation
2 perhaps should have taken place outside the courtroom after we had
4 We adjourn and resume on Tuesday, the 7th of April, Courtroom I,
5 9.30 in the morning.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.28 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of April,
8 2015, at 9.30 a.m.