1 Tuesday, 7 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Judge Fluegge is for urgent personal reasons unable to sit today
12 and the coming days. However, it -- it's expected we have short
13 duration, that is, this week, which is three working days left.
14 Judge Moloto and myself have considered whether it would be in the
15 interests of justice to continue to hear this case and we concluded that
16 it is. Therefore, we'll sit 15 bis today and the coming days.
17 If the Defence is ready to call its next witness, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
19 Slavoljub Mladjenovic is our next witness today.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
21 Meanwhile, I use the time to deal with a matter related to this
23 On the 20th of February of this year, the Rule 92 ter motion for
24 Witness Mladjenovic was filed. Considering the change in his mode of
25 testimony from 92 ter to viva voce, the Chamber hereby declares the
1 Rule 92 ter motion of this witness moot.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic. Before you give
4 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that
5 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
6 text is now handed out to you. Could you make that solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: SLAVOLJUB MLADJENOVIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Mladjenovic.
12 Mr. Mladjenovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
13 You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
14 Mr. Mladic.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. According to the usual procedure in this courtroom, could you
21 please slowly state your name and surname.
22 A. My name is Slavoljub Mladjenovic.
23 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, could you please tell us where and when you were
25 A. On the 6th of January [As interpreted], 1961, in Ljubovija,
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
3 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could you please just repeat the date of your birth, because it
6 seems to me that the record does not reflect exactly what you had said.
7 A. I was born on the 6th of June, 1961, in Ljubovija, Serbia.
8 Q. Thank you. Where do you live today?
9 A. Today I live in Bratunac.
10 Q. Could you please tell the Court about your professional
11 qualifications and your education.
12 A. I completed elementary school in Bratunac. Secondary school in
13 Ljubovija; it was a general high school, a gymnasium. Then also in
14 Belgrade, I completed my post-secondary education in the field of
15 physical education, and also I got my university degree from the
16 University of Sarajevo in Pale, in physical education as well.
17 Q. What is the job you have today?
18 A. Right now, I am the director of the public library in Bratunac.
19 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, do you have any kind of military education or
21 A. No. In 1980, I did my regular military service in Rijeka.
22 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, where
23 did you happen to be?
24 A. After I completed my post-secondary education, I worked as a PE
25 teach in Prnjavor, Fakovici, in Bjelovac near Bratunac; that is to say,
1 when the war broke out, I was the director of the elementary school in
3 Q. Did you have any kind of military involvement at any point in
5 A. Until the 17th of April, no. The 17th of April, 1992. No.
6 Q. What happened then?
7 A. Well, on the 17th of April, 1992, I was called up by the
8 Territorial Defence to report to the village of Krasan [Realtime
9 transcript read in error "Krasim"] Polje, where my parents lived, to
10 report to the Territorial Defence. That's where I belonged. The TO of
12 Q. The village of Krasanpolje, did it have a mixed ethnic
13 composition or was it a single ethnicity living there?
14 A. It was mixed.
15 Q. What were the ethnic communities living there in Krasanpolje?
16 A. In Krasanpolje there were Serbs and Muslims. There were a bit
17 more Serbs though.
18 Q. What were your tasks at that point in time as a member of the
19 Territorial Defence in the village of Krasanpolje?
20 A. My task was to have the TO Krasanpolje form -- I mean, those who
21 were military age and able bodied, I mean, we should provide security for
22 the village. However, at first we had village guards, village patrols
23 together with the Muslim population.
24 MR. GILLETT: Apologies to interrupt. I just saw on the
25 transcript that the name of the village is spelled Krasim Polje, and I'm
1 wondering if that is the correct spelling.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the first time. It's the second time I
3 think it's spelled that way.
4 Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I see that.
6 And I see in line 9 on page 4 that marking that means that there is no
7 certainty as far as the toponym is concerned.
8 Q. But, Mr. Mladjenovic, for the record I would like to ask you to
9 state slowly the name of the village where you had these military duties
11 A. Krasanpolje.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: K-r-a-s-a-n.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. What was the situation like in Bratunac and Krasanpolje at the
16 time as far as interethnic relations went?
17 A. As for the situation -- I mean, well, on both sides it was good.
18 At first, we had these joint patrols and guards, that is to say, to
19 provide security to all the inhabitants of Krasanpolje. However, I mean,
20 when Goran Zekic was killed, he was a member of parliament -- I think it
21 was on the 8th. 8th of May, I think. There was -- there was this fear
22 on both sides. Ethnic Serbs because, I mean, Ljubovija was nearby, well
23 the elderly went towards Ljubovija, that is to say, to Serbia; and as for
24 Muslims, well, they went towards Tuzla and Kladanj.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's mention of the 8th of May. Which year was
1 this that we talking about?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. What is the meant is the
3 beginning of the war.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did the military-age men leave Bratunac at the time?
6 A. Yes. Excuse me.
7 Q. Could you please say what the situation was in view of the
8 population of Krasanpolje; specifically, those days in May 1992?
9 A. After what happened what happened in Bijeljina and Zvornik, I've
10 already said that the population felt this fear, both left Krasanpolje,
11 especially the elderly men of Muslim ethnicity asked me to transfer them
12 to Ljubovija. However, I couldn't do that. I sent them to the
13 Territorial Defence in Bratunac.
14 Q. What happened to them afterwards?
15 A. As far as the Muslim inhabitants of Krasanpolje, on the 10th of
16 May I was informed by the TO that buses would arrive. I mean, Muslims
17 expressed the wish to leave Krasanpolje to go to Kladanj and Tuzla.
18 Q. Did that happen?
19 A. Yes. On the 10th. In the morning, a bus came and all those who
20 happened to be in Krasanpolje got onto the bus escorted by soldiers.
21 They went towards Bratunac.
22 Q. Do you know what happened later to that population that took that
23 bus to Bratunac?
24 A. Well, these inhabitants that set out towards Bratunac, as far as
25 I know, most of them returned to Krasanpolje after Dayton.
1 Q. Did you have any specific duties in that TO unit in terms of
3 A. First, I was platoon command; and then company commander. Yes.
4 Q. What was your next military assignment?
5 A. As for the TO Bratunac, I received an order from them towards the
6 end of June. I should -- I mean, take Kunjerac. That is a hill above
7 Bjelovac. And the water works for all of Bratunac was up there, and I
8 was supposed to secure it.
9 Q. Did you carry out that mission?
10 A. Yes. After that order, we took the area of Kunjerac, and we
11 stayed there until the end of July 1992.
12 Q. At that time until the end of July 1992, were you still
13 organisationally under the Territorial Defence?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. While you were carrying out this task, were there any clashes
16 with the other side?
17 A. Yes. On Saint Peter's Day on the 12th of July, Kunjerac was
18 attacked as well and I lost a soldier then.
19 Q. Where did this attack come from against the city waterworks of
21 A. From the direction of Biljaca.
22 Q. What was your next assignment? Where did you receive it? And
23 how did you move on from there?
24 A. After Kunjerac, the end of July, I was given the task to take the
25 area at Banjevici.
1 Q. Could you please describe this in terms of cardinal points.
2 Where is the area of Banjevici so that would be clearer to us here in the
4 A. The area of Banjevici is in the local commune of Kravica. I
5 mean, Kuslata is on one side and Supotnik on the other side.
6 Q. Where were positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina then?
7 A. The separation line was at Banjevici. I cannot remember exactly
8 now the place that was in front. That was held, I mean, by the Muslims.
9 Q. At the time as for carrying out this mission, were you a member
10 of the TO or was it already the Bratunac Brigade?
11 A. I cannot recall exactly. For a while, we were the TO. It was
12 the detachment first and then maybe later in September -- I cannot
13 remember. I don't know the date exactly. Then it was reformulated, and
14 we belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.
15 Q. Did you have any specific military duties? And what were they,
16 if you had any?
17 A. Well, we held the lines. We weren't the only ones at Banjevici.
18 There were others from Kravica. I mean, there was this line that we
19 held, I mean.
20 Q. Did you have any specific duties in terms of this establishment?
21 What were the duties that you had?
22 A. At Banjevici, I was the company commander. Actually, in the
23 detachment, I was the morale man, and then I was company commander when
24 it was reformulated.
25 Q. Until when were you involved in the Army of Republika Srpska?
1 A. I mean, as far as holding the line at Banjevici was concerned, we
2 held it up until March. The 14th of December, there was this attack and
3 another soldier was killed there, and then until -- March 1993, I mean.
4 After the attack on Christmas Day, these lines were moved, and in March
5 when this operation of returning Kravica took place, after the end, I was
6 appointed deputy commander of the 1st Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
7 Q. Until when were you in that position?
8 A. I held that position as deputy commander of the 1st Battalion
9 until the 6th of June, 1994.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what sounds in our ears very much as
11 the personal military history of this witness, the Chamber is fully lost
12 as far as the relevance of this detailed evidence is concerned.
13 Could you please keep that in mind and move on as quickly as
14 possible to portions of the evidence which clearly show relevance.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
16 Q. How did you come into the MUP? How did you take up duties at the
18 A. Since there was a change-over in the public security station, the
19 then commander Ljubisa Borovcanin went to a different duty, the chief
20 Vuka Bogdanovic went to the Zvornik centre, and then I was proposed as
21 the station commander, and Miodrag Jusupovic, whom we called Dragan, was
22 proposed as the chief of the public security station.
23 Q. And the police from the Bratunac police station where you were
24 the commander during those years in the second half of 1994 and in 1995,
25 participate in combat actions.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how was this police participation in combat organised?
3 A. When I came, these companies were not formed. However, sometime
4 in October 1994, pursuant to an order from the ministry, companies were
5 formed at the level of the public security centre in Zvornik, as well as
6 in other centres. I was appointed commander of the 2nd Company.
7 Q. Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber at that time, in 1995, how
8 many such companies did the Zvornik centre have? The police companies.
9 A. Four or five such companies were formed. The companies were
10 formed from all the security stations. They were younger members,
11 younger policemen in the 1st Company. Then in the 2nd Company, it was,
12 according to some rating, after the 1st and then the 3rd and the 4th.
13 And then in the 5th Company, there were older members of the police.
14 Q. And can you tell us where were you sent specifically as the
15 Bratunac Police Company in 1994, late 1994 and 1995? Which combat area?
16 A. My company was sent to Bandijerka first, that was near Sekovici.
17 And then later we were at Treskavica.
18 Q. And then when you would go to carry out your military
19 assignments, who did you receive your orders from?
20 A. We received our orders from the public security centre in
21 Zvornik. We belonged to that centre.
22 Q. And was there any need for your personal training or additional
23 training in view of the duties that you were carrying out?
24 A. Since I came from the civilian force, I was sent to a course for
25 commanders that was being given in Banja Luka in June 1995.
1 Q. And how long did you spend at the course?
2 A. Until the 8th of July, 1995.
3 Q. Now I would like to ask you to deal with the period that is very
4 important to us. When did you return to the police station in Bratunac
5 from that training course?
6 A. I returned from the course on the 8th of July, 1995.
7 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what was your first
8 specific assignment once you came back from the training course.
9 A. When I returned on the 8th of July to Bratunac, the chief,
10 Miodrag Jusupovic, told me that something was being done around
11 Srebrenica, or that something would be happening around Srebrenica.
12 Q. And what did he specifically tell you? What can you remember?
13 A. Because of frequent attacks by Muslim units from Srebrenica of
14 the lines held by the members of the Bratunac Brigade military units, an
15 attack was expected to be carried out so that these soldiers would return
16 to the protected area; the safe area.
17 Q. And did your police station receive any specific assignments in
18 relation to these activities?
19 A. As far as the station was concerned, until the 12th of July, our
20 assignment was to secure and carry out police assignments, monitoring
21 public law and order. I mean, these were purely police assignments.
22 Q. And what happened on the 12th of July, 1995?
23 A. On the 12th of July, 1995, approximately at 10.00 a.m., we
24 received a dispatch that the 2nd Company, i.e., two platoons of the
25 2nd Company, had to transfer to Srebrenica in the course of the day in
1 order to provide security. Because Srebrenica was already captured, so
2 we were supposed to provide security, perform purely police jobs in order
3 to prevent looting of the property in Srebrenica.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could the witness further clarify
5 where he performed his duties up to the 12th of July.
6 So between the 8th and the 12th, where you said you were -- you
7 did the ordinary police work. Where was that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked at my own police station,
9 in Bratunac. I came back on the 8th. I rested for a day or two. I had
10 a couple of days off. And then on the 9th or the 10th, I went back to my
11 regular duties in the town, the town of Bratunac.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Are you able to tell the Court what were your duties practically
14 during those several days? What was your post?
15 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered that question, what his
16 assignments was during those days: Ordinary police duties. I just was
17 interested to know where, and he told me that it is in Bratunac town.
18 Not outside Bratunac town?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's -- that's that.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I'm going go back for a moment to that time when you received the
23 For purposes of clarification, could you please tell the
24 Trial Chamber this 2nd Company of the PJP, how many members did it have
25 at that point in time?
1 A. Including the command, there were three platoons. So that would
2 be about 100 men. In the dispatch, it said that two platoons were to
3 report to Srebrenica, the 2nd and the 3rd, while the 1st Platoon would
4 remain in Zvornik with my deputy. Dzelmic [phoen], he was the deputy
5 company commander.
6 Q. And do you know where this platoon, the 1st Platoon of the
7 2nd Company of the PJP was deployed in Zvornik over those few days?
8 A. As far as I can recall, it was in the sector above Kula in
10 Q. Thank you. And did you begin to implement the order that you
11 received in the dispatch in the morning of the 12th of July, 1995?
12 A. Yes. The policemen of the 2nd Company were informed that they
13 were supposed to report to the station with all of their equipment. The
14 staging area was the police station at 3.00 p.m. They were supposed to
15 be ready by that time. Then at 3.00 p.m. a bus arrived that was picking
16 up the members of the 2nd and the 3rd Platoon. These were people from
17 Sekovici, Vlasenica, and Milici, and the bus was in Bratunac ready at
19 Q. And did you set off for Srebrenica that day?
20 A. Yes. About a couple of hours after my policemen arrived. And
21 the policemen who had worked in Srebrenica before the war broke out, they
22 boarded the bus. We also had a car where Petko Pavlovic was given an
23 assignment to -- he was the chief of the public security station in
24 Srebrenica. That's the post he was appointed to. So his assignment was
25 to form a station, and this assignment was also given to his
1 deputy commander Milisav Gavric. We set off at 3.00 p.m. not towards
2 Potocari but towards Bjelovac through Sase Zaluzje. We went down near
3 the playing field. And at approximately 5.00 p.m., we were in front of
4 the public security station in Srebrenica.
5 Q. And were the members of the newly formed police station in
6 Srebrenica with you headed by Petko Pavlovic as the chief and
7 Milisav Gavric as the deputy commander of the police station? Did they
8 also enter Srebrenica at that time?
9 A. Well, yes. I've already said that Milisav, myself, and Petko
10 were in the car. The others were in the bus. Members of the
11 2nd Company, the 2nd and the 3rd Platoon, and the policemen who had
12 worked in Srebrenica were in the bus. However, what happened was that
13 policeman Nenad Deronjic, who was a member of the 2nd Company, and he was
14 also a person who had worked in Srebrenica before the war. So Nenad
15 Deronjic, Pavle Pelemis, Sredoje Bojic, were there. Also Mladen Gligic,
16 Darko Obrenovic, and I can't remember who the others were. There were
17 two or three other policemen.
18 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you about that later. I'm
19 particularly interested in one of those names.
20 So I would just like to ask you to explain to us who are not from
21 that area if you go through that area, do you need to pass through
23 A. We took a detour. We didn't go through Potocari. This is a road
24 that goes towards Bjelovac and then turns towards Sase and then goes down
25 next to the playing field and that's how you reach the centre of the
2 Q. Could you please tell us, when you arrived at Srebrenica at
3 approximately 5.00 p.m., as you said, on the 12th of July, 1995, can you
4 describe the situation there when you got there?
5 A. As for the situation in Srebrenica, actually, we didn't see any
6 civilians on the streets. There was a lot of timber or wood in front of
7 all of the buildings. It didn't look -- Srebrenica didn't look like
8 there were many buildings that were demolished, but it was quite filthy.
9 Q. Did you notice any other military formations in Srebrenica at the
11 A. There were no military formations in Srebrenica at that time.
12 Q. And was there any fighting, any resistance, any shooting when you
13 entered Srebrenica at that time?
14 A. No, it was quiet.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could the witness explain why they
16 didn't take the shortest route and why they made a detour when they went
17 to Srebrenica?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We took a different route, a
19 round-about way, because there was an UNPROFOR base where the Muslim
20 population was from Srebrenica, so our intention was to avoid going that
21 way and to take this other road and to -- and to avoid Potocari.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that you wanted to avoid it. But why
23 performing normal police duties, why would you avoid the UNPROFOR base
24 and Muslim population?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that was the order
1 from the centre to take that route.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But you don't know the reasons why?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. All I knew is that
4 we were supposed to avoid that area. Probably the reason was due to the
5 things that were happening in Potocari.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You were aware that Muslims were gathering there?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Who told you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the station, in the morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Were any details given?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Muslim population was at
12 the UNPROFOR base. That's what we were told. And Srebrenica was empty,
13 I mean. And that order from the centre, probably from the ministry that
14 went to the centre, was for us to go to Srebrenica and to secure work. I
15 mean, secure the town and the establishment of the station, that is.
16 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "the ministry," which ministry are you
17 referring to?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ministry of Republika Srpska.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what ministry? Not Ministry of Foreign
20 Affairs, I take it.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ministry of Police, that is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, when arriving in Srebrenica, did you notice any
1 units of the Army of Republika Srpska in the town itself?
2 A. At the time, I mean, there weren't any military units. Very
3 little -- I mean, there weren't any civilians either of Serb ethnicity.
4 They started coming in later.
5 Q. Specifically, practically, what's the building that you went to
6 when you arrived in the town of Srebrenica?
7 A. Upon arriving in Srebrenica, we stopped in front of the station.
8 The police station in Srebrenica. We didn't find anybody there. So we
9 entered the station, and we agreed on how to proceed; how our unit was to
10 proceed, that is.
11 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what your specific task was at
12 that point in time, as commander of the 2nd Company of the PJP?
13 A. My task as the commander of the 2nd Company was to secure the
14 town, I mean, to prevent looting, and to help the new chief,
15 Petko Pavlovic, that is, to establish the public security station.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could I seek clarification of one of
17 the previous answers.
18 I'll read to you, Witness, how it was recorded. You were asked
19 whether were any units of the Army of Republika Srpska, and you said:
20 "At the time, ... there weren't any military units. Very
21 little -- I mean, there weren't any civilians either of Serb ethnicity."
22 Now, when you said "very little," did you refer to the military
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't any military
25 formations, that is. I mean, later, later civilians of Serb ethnicity
1 appeared. Those who wanted to return to their homes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Military formations. Does that mean that there was
3 no soldier in Srebrenica at the time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In town, where we were? No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. How did you embark upon the realisation of the task that you
9 received? What did you do then?
10 A. Nothing. I mean, with a few policemen, first we toured the main
11 street from the playing field down there, to up there, where the exit is
12 towards Zeleni Jadar. We set up two check-points. We left a police
13 presence by the playing field. And on the exit towards Petrici. I mean,
14 the cultural centre up there, that exit. And then this patrol that
15 patrolled that part of town.
16 Q. How many policemen were these two check-points according to the
17 assignments that you gave them?
18 A. I cannot remember right now, but I think there were seven or
19 eight of them. In order to be on the safe side, we assigned more
20 policemen to every one of these check-points.
21 Q. What about the other policemen from the 2nd Company? What were
22 their specific tasks in terms of implementing the task that you had
24 A. The other policemen were on the ready together with me in case we
25 needed to intervene so that we could intervene.
1 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what the specific tasks
2 were of the members of the newly established police station in Srebrenica
3 on that day and on the following days?
4 A. It was already evening by then, and we had this list of
5 policemen, and that is where the schedule is made for the 13th, so then
6 they were supposed to establish the station and start opening documents,
7 and a duty service was set up, and also the patrol service that is
8 correct patrolled the town.
9 Q. You personally, on that afternoon, the 12th, did you tour the
10 town of Srebrenica when these two check-points were placed?
11 A. Yes. I went to the playing field, and I went up there towards
12 Petrici, towards Zeleni Jadar.
13 Q. Did you notice something characteristic, something unusual,
14 something that remained in your memory?
15 A. Yes. At the exit towards Petrici, there is this curve. We came
16 across a male corpse. Most probably this was an ethnic Muslim. The man
17 was dead.
18 Q. What did you do with the body, if you did anything specific?
19 A. We couldn't have done anything on that day since it was already
20 evening, but it was the following day or two days later, the civilian
21 protection -- I mean, they had been informed, and they removed the
23 Q. Could you notice what the cause of death had been of that
24 particular individual?
25 A. Well, no. Because the corpse was already decaying, and we felt
1 the stench, and I could not see from the car what the cause of death was.
2 Q. Tell me, when touring Srebrenica, were you in a position to see
3 whether there were any buildings that had been destroyed due to shelling?
4 A. As for the town itself, I said at the very beginning that I did
5 not notice any major destruction. I think there was this one crater by
6 the school, at the playing field there. I didn't see any destroyed
8 Q. Do you know what the members of the civilian protection did with
9 that body, the mortal remains of that person found there?
10 A. I really don't recall. At any rate, they removed the body from
11 that place. Most probably they buried the body.
12 Q. On that day or on the following days, did you have an opportunity
13 to see civilians of Muslim ethnicity anywhere in the town of Srebrenica?
14 A. When walking around town with the police, in a basement we found
15 a woman who was an ethnic Muslim. She could not move. Her mobility was
16 impaired. And elderly people like that were found in cellars, basements,
17 and they expressed the wish for us to transfer them to Potocari. We took
18 a truck, I think it belonged to the public cleaning service, and I
19 ordered Bojic and Obrenovic to transfer them to Potocari, and that what
20 they did. Upon returning, they told me that they handed them over to the
21 UNPROFOR base in Potocari.
22 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber to the best of your recollection
23 what day that could have been? The first day you arrived? The second
24 day after you arrived? Do you have any sense of time in that way?
25 A. I think it was on the first day. That is to say, when touring
1 the main street. That is to say, the 12th.
2 Q. Was there any pressure? Was there any abuse? Was there any
3 mistreatment of these civilians that you found in the town of Srebrenica?
4 A. No. As far as the police was concerned, we really did our job.
5 They expressed their wish to go, and we had these orders, stating that
6 those who wished to leave, that we should transfer them to the base in
7 Potocari. So the six or seven of them, all of them, expressed that wish.
8 They said they wanted to go to the base, and that's where they went and
9 that's where they stayed.
10 Q. Tell me, where did you spend the night between the 12th and 13th
11 of July, 1995?
12 A. The night? Well, I mean, since there were these shifts, I mean,
13 those who were at the check-points -- Petko and Milisav spent the night
14 at the station. There was this apartment above the station. It belonged
15 to a lady who worked with my wife, and that's where we spent the night.
16 We just sat there. We didn't really sleep.
17 Q. The check-points, did they function that night; and these
18 patrols? The night between the 12th and the 13th.
19 A. Yes. And we received no information whatsoever about any kind of
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me
23 that it's time for the break now, and then I will move onto the 13th of
24 July and what happened on that day. Perhaps this would be the right time
25 to take the break.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break now.
2 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in
3 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, there was a matter you wanted to raise.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 The Court may recall that this was a matter raised at the end of
11 the day on Thursday. It concerned two documents which had been
12 inadvertently omitted from the list of exhibits to be potentially used in
13 cross-examination, so Mr. Traldi refrained from tendering them at that
14 time pending a discussion with the Defence. The Defence expressed no
15 objection to those documents being tendered, and so we asked at the end
16 of the day on Thursday for 65 ter 02780 and 65 ter 18494 to be admitted.
17 And I'm repeating that now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 02780 will be Exhibit P7299.
21 And 65 ter number 18494 will be Exhibit P7300.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7299 and P7300 are admitted into evidence.
23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, could you please tell us what your specific duty
3 was in relation to the protection of movable property in the town of
5 A. As for my unit, that is to say, the 2nd and 3rd Platoons, our
6 task was to prevent movable property from being taken out of Srebrenica,
7 to establish check-points, and if goods reached the check-points, then
8 they were taken away from the persons who were carrying them. These
9 goods would then be placed in storage where war booty was kept. So if
10 goods were taken away at Zuti Most, they were handed over to the storage
11 facility in Bratunac.
12 Q. Those days, midday of the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, did Serb
13 refugees from Srebrenica start coming into town?
14 A. I've mentioned that on the 13th there were very few of them, but
15 on the 14th and 15th, all of those who had property there came to see
16 what it was like. Already on the 13th, 14th, the town was already full
17 of Serb civilians.
18 Q. Did you come across situations when movable property was being
19 unlawfully seized?
20 A. Yes. There was quite a bit of that. We even had problems with
21 people drawing weapons at us. So a few men in uniforms with a truck took
22 some furniture or something, and we stopped that truck. It was coming
23 from the department store and moving towards the station. We stopped
24 them. They protested. And at one moment as I was asking for
25 reinforcements, since I saw that there would be a problem, one of these
1 men put a gun to my forehead. He said he'd kill me. And I said, "Okay,
2 I'll call the chief the centre, Dragomir Vasic, and if he allows it then
3 no problem." Then I called him, he came, and I took off my belt and I
4 said, "I cannot take all of these goods, there would be major problems."
5 I really could not take that situation any longer. I particularly
6 disliked being held at gunpoint. I asked this man to leave aside his
7 weapon if we were supposed to deal with each other. Then I said, "Let's
8 fight bare fisted," and that's what happened.
9 And then the chief took over the case, and then I went over to
10 Bratunac, and what happened afterwards I don't know. So that was in the
11 afternoon of the 13th of July.
12 Q. Objectively speaking, with the number of men you had and the
13 newly established police station in Srebrenica, could you make sure that
14 all of these things could not be taken out of Srebrenica? Did you have
15 enough personnel to secure that?
16 A. Well, no. It was just the route towards Zeleni Jadar and another
17 one, and then we had to provide security for vital facilities, like the
18 court-house, the post office, so we didn't have enough manpower to resist
19 all of that.
20 Q. You mentioned --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gillett.
23 MR. GILLETT: Apologies. I could raise this in
24 cross-examination, but just while we're on the topic, the answer to the
25 previous question one further up was ambiguous, where the witness said
1 "let's fight bare fisted and that's what happened," it was ambiguous to
2 me as to whether he meant they had that discussion or whether there, in
3 fact, was some kind of fist fight. And I was just wondering if it would
4 be easier to clear that up now as opposed to raising it later.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Will you follow the suggestion of Mr. Gillett,
6 Mr. Stojanovic?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I think that
8 the witness actually said so and maybe it didn't get into the transcript.
9 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, would you just please tell us what happened when
10 you told this person who had drawn a weapon and pointed it at you to drop
11 the weapons and to fight it out?
12 A. Could you just please repeat the question again?
13 Q. I want to ask you what happened once you asked this person that
14 was taking all these goods to drop the weapon and that you two fight it
16 A. I don't remember whether he -- when all of this was happening, I
17 mean, the atmosphere was tense until Vasic arrived, the chief of the
18 centre. Once he arrived, I explained what was happening. I dropped my
19 belt and I said I'm going to fight him, physically. I don't want us to
20 deal with it by drawing our weapons. And then at that point of time I
21 hit him, I felled him to the ground, and then the chief took us to the --
22 aside and we talked. The chief then ordered that the truck should be
23 escorted to Bratunac.
24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned at one point members of the newly
25 formed police station in Srebrenica, among them Nenad Deronjic. How long
1 have you known Nenad Deronjic?
2 A. I have known Nenad Deronjic from the time I came to the Bratunac
3 police station from the 6th of June, 1994. Because he was a member of
4 the police station in Bratunac. Nenad Deronjic was then in my unit, in
5 the 2nd Company, from the Bratunac security station.
6 Q. When did you see him for the first time when he was performing
7 his duties in the town of Srebrenica?
8 A. As for Nenad Deronjic, together with the rest, because he was
9 informed that he had to go with the rest of the 2nd Company, he was on
10 the bus, he came together with the other members of the unit to
12 Q. And did you have the opportunity to see Deronjic the next day, on
13 the 13th of July, 1995?
14 A. Yes. I think that since he was a senior, experienced policeman,
15 that he and Gavric had the task of making the schedule for the public
16 security station service and to assign policemen at check-points and on
17 patrol duty.
18 Q. And how long did you specifically remain in the town of
19 Srebrenica on this assignment?
20 A. I think that I stayed for about seven or eight days. After the
21 12th, I was returned to Bratunac with the unit, and then those from my
22 unit who were from Srebrenica originally - like Nenad Deronjic - stayed
23 behind; whereas, we returned. And then after a few days off, we went to
24 our next assignment where the unit was as signed to Treskavica.
25 Q. And where did you sleep during those days while you were on
1 assignment in Srebrenica?
2 A. The first night we slept above the police station. This was an
3 apartment that belonged to a friend of my wife's. And on the following
4 day, together with Sredoje Bojic and members of the Bratunac police that
5 were in my company, we slept in the Domavija hotel and we were securing
6 that area, the exit towards Zeleni Jadar.
7 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where Hotel Domavija is
8 located for purposes of transcript?
9 A. Hotel Domavija is just above the cultural hall and the church.
10 It's in that area.
11 Q. For the transcript, could you please tell us which town?
12 A. I'm talking about the town of Srebrenica. I am located in
13 Srebrenica at that time.
14 Q. And did any policemen sustain any injuries or were any policemen
15 killed during those days?
16 A. No one from my unit had any such problems. As for members of my
17 police station, on the 13th, after midnight, a member of the
18 1st Company - we used to call him Tulo - was killed on the road
19 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, near Sandici.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like to seek clarification of
21 one of the answers.
22 Witness, you told us what happened on the 13th of July in the
23 afternoon, that you were threatened, and when the chief took over, you
24 said you went over to Bratunac.
25 At the same time, you told us that you stayed for some six,
1 seven, or eight days in Srebrenica. Now, did you return to Bratunac in
2 the afternoon of the 13th of July; and, if so, when did you then return
3 to Srebrenica again?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a misunderstanding. It
5 wasn't I who went to Bratunac. That whole group of men who had resisted
6 the seizure of the items together with the chief centre and his group
7 went to Srebrenica. I remained in Srebrenica. And then on the 13th, we
8 slept at the Domavija have hotel in Srebrenica. That was near the town
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you know what happened with the goods
11 which were on the truck? Whether they finally were handed over or
12 whether they remained in the possession of those transporting them?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The goods were in Bratunac. They
14 were seized in Bratunac, the goods, and then they were placed in the
15 building allocated for war booty.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last sentence.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a building of the sawmill,
20 the 9th of October sawmill. It was a large building, so all the goods
21 that were seized, all the war booty, was stored there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you're also recorded as having said and
23 then the chief took over the case, and then you said they -- they were
24 escorted to Bratunac. And you then said: "... and what happened
25 afterwards, I don't know." What didn't you know? What did you not know?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the measures that
2 were taken by the centre chief in relation to those people other than
3 seizing the goods.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. And did you have any other more detailed information about how
7 this policeman was killed, the one that you mentioned a little bit
9 A. As for the 1st Company of the PJP, it was attached to the
10 detachment of the deputy commander of the detachment Ljubisa Borovcanin,
11 and as far as I know they secured the road; that is to say, Sandici
12 towards Konjevic Polje. And at that moment, a group of Muslims came.
13 There was gun-fire and Zeljko Ninkovic, nicknamed Tulo, was killed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have no personal knowledge about that. It's
15 just what you heard. Is that well understood?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wasn't there. I only heard
17 that in the police station.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, it may be important to rely primarily on direct
20 observation of witnesses rather than what was told at a later stage.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you attend the burial of that member of your police station?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber when that was, what day?
25 A. It was on the 14th of July, in the afternoon.
1 Q. After that, did you stay in Bratunac or did you return to
2 Srebrenica to continue your mission?
3 A. For those seven or eight days that I was there, I was in
4 Srebrenica. I slept in Domavija hotel. However, every evening we had to
5 change rooms. Because there were fleas and everybody complained about
6 fleas, so we had to change rooms every evening to avoid being bitten.
7 Q. During those seven or eight days from the 12th of July, 1995,
8 while you were in Srebrenica, were there any units of the VRS in the town
9 of Srebrenica?
10 A. As far as I can remember, there were no army units in the town
12 Q. Thank you. When you returned to the police station in Bratunac
13 and then until the end of the war, what were your specific tasks?
14 A. Up to 1997, I was the commander of the police station. And then
15 for a year I was the chief of the public security station in Bratunac.
16 From 2008 to 2001, I worked in the police department in the Zvornik
17 Security Services Centre. I was an inspector in the police department
18 there. In 2001, I returned to Bratunac where I assumed the position of
19 chief. And then when the police forces were reformed, I was appointed as
20 the police station commander and I stayed there until the 6th of June,
22 Q. I'm asking you this for the following reason. In 1996, did you
23 have any specific tasks relative to the establishment of the truth about
24 the events that took place in July in Srebrenica?
25 A. At the beginning of 1996, it was cold and there was frost on the
1 ground. So I supposed that it was sometime in the winter. I was
2 informed that Mrs. Elisabeth Rehn would come to Bratunac. The police
3 station was supposed to provide security for her. Together with the
4 municipal authorities and the then president Miroslav Deronjic, we were
5 supposed to inspect the area around Bokcin Potok because there were
6 rumours about a lot of killed Muslims there, that there had been a
7 skirmish the previous night between the two groups of them because they
8 didn't know of each other.
9 Q. At the police station, who gave you that task?
10 A. From the security services centre in Zvornik, we received that
11 task to be at the disposal of Miroslav Deronjic who be would a member of
12 that group.
13 Q. And what was your specific task during Mrs. Rehn's visit?
14 A. My task was to provide security for her in the perimeter around
15 Bokcin Potok that they desired to inspect. This is what I did. I was
16 with a couple of other police officers. I escorted Mrs. Elisabeth Rehn
17 and there were a number of other policemen who deployed in the general
18 sector of Bokcin.
19 Q. And on that occasion, what did you personally observe?
20 A. We travelled by cars to a certain place. I can't remember its
21 name. And then we continued on foot. Because Bokcin Potok is a place
22 where you -- which you can't reach by car. We went on foot for a
23 kilometre or so. And in that area, I observed a lot of terrible things.
24 There were a lot of corpses, parts of bodies. I suppose that they had
25 been dismembered by wild beasts. I can't remember how many corpses there
1 were, but there were a lot of them and they were all decomposing.
2 Q. And on that occasion, did you provide security for anybody else;
3 for example, people who collected the body parts or who were engaged in
4 the sanitization of the area?
5 A. No, not on that occasion. Ms. Rehn inspected the area, some
6 photos were taken, and then returned. Later on we received an order to
7 provide security for a commission. The commission was headed by Masovic.
8 They were in charge of collecting those body parts in the area.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I would like to seek clarification
10 of one of the previous answers.
11 When you started talking about Elisabeth Rehn's visit, you said,
12 and I read it to you and I ask a few questions about it:
13 "... because there were rumours about a lot of killed
14 Muslims ..., that there had been a skirmish the previous night."
15 Was that the night before Elisabeth Rehn arrived?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. What I meant was in
17 July 1995, and Ms. Rehn arrived 1996. Towards the end of that year in
18 October when it was already cold and there was frost on the ground.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And you said there was rumours about a skirmish
20 between the two groups of them. Do you mean two groups of Muslims?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because that probably
22 happened during the night. That was the main passage towards Tuzla.
23 It's a canyon and I suppose one group arrived earlier. They wanted to
24 take a rest. The other group arrived, they thought that there was an
25 ambush awaiting them, fire was opened, and they killed each other.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any personal knowledge about it or
2 is it just that you're reproducing what you heard as rumours?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have any personal
4 knowledge of that. Obviously I didn't -- I did not participate in all
5 that. Those are rumours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. That next task, to secure the members of the federal commission
10 for searching missing persons, who gave you that task?
11 A. A dispatch came from the Security Services Centre. As uniformed
12 police, we provided security for the location, whereas people arrived
13 from the public security station in Zvornik. Actually, there was just
14 one inspector who arrived and there were members of the commission from
15 the Federation and from Republika Srpska who were also secured by them.
16 Q. When it comes to the police officers of your police station, did
17 you accomplish that mission?
18 A. Yes. Not only in that area, but also in the general area of the
19 passage or of that road. On a number of locations we had to provide
20 security upon the order of the Security Services Centre while the members
21 of the commission worked in those locations.
22 Q. And the police officers from your police station, after
23 completing the task of securing Bokcin Potok and the collection of those
24 bodies, did they report to you about the accomplishment of the task?
25 A. Every time when security had been provided for a location, a
1 report had to be written. But they did not have access to the location
2 itself. They had to secure the general area so that the members of the
3 commission could work. So they did not have the information about the
4 number of the body parts and bodies that had been collected.
5 Q. What happened to the body parts that had been collected?
6 A. According to the information that I had, they were transported to
7 the Federation. The federal commission transported them to the
8 Federation. I believe that they were taken in the direction of Visoko.
9 That's where they were taken, I believe.
10 Q. Did you learn from the police officers who had been given that
11 task what was the approximate number of the bodies that were collected in
12 Bokcin Potok?
13 A. There were just rumours, and according to those rumours over 300
14 bodies were found in that area. Not only in Bokcin but also in the
15 general area.
16 Q. Did anybody obstruct the work of the commission? And I mean the
17 government of the -- Republika Srpska?
18 A. No, there were no obstructions. I suppose that the Ministry of
19 Interior was tasked with securing the location, and we did not encounter
20 a single problem in our job of securing the area and the persons involved
21 in the task.
22 Q. Could you please tell us about that activity of collecting
23 bodies. How long did it last, all in all?
24 A. Until the year 1998, I was chief, and while I was chief and
25 commander, those activities took place for a week every month. Then I
1 went to Zvornik. And then when I returned, we still assisted those
2 people who were involved in the collection of bodies, and we still
3 provided security for those locations.
4 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that that was close to the road. Could
5 you please tell the Trial Chamber which road was that? Where were the
6 bodies collected? On what route?
7 A. It was the road --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, this is all hearsay. He wasn't
9 there. Do we not have better evidence for that? I mean, why would we
10 hear this from this witness?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness was
12 there. He was in Bokcin Potok, more specifically, when Mrs. Elisabeth
13 Rehn arrived. So my question was in respect of his own personal
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He told us that they had no access to where
16 the bodies were found. He didn't know about the numbers, et cetera. Is
17 it just about the road and is there any dispute about that? Is that an
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it's not really an issue. We have
20 established, I think, it's up to almost 900 to 1.000 surface remains in
21 this area going up towards the path of the column through DNA and these
22 various time-periods where groups have come in and taken up bodies.
23 So this is part of the case. It's in Dusan Janc's report and
24 testimony, testimony of Dean Manning, it's all laid out.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Locations are not --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Locations as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- in issue. I wonder what we're listening to, that
3 someone who was on that road, and I think, as a matter of fact, that the
4 witness more or less described where it was. Now to hear again how far
5 it was on the road.
6 If there's detailed evidence about all of this, Mr. Stojanovic, I
7 leave it to you for the remaining two minutes whether you want to spend
8 more time on this or whether you would bring us evidence which sheds even
9 more light on the events compared to what we know already from other
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
13 Q. There was my last question. I would like to thank
14 Mr. Mladjenovic for his answers.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I believe that I have
16 honoured the time that I said I would need for the examination of this
17 witness. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 Witness, you'll now be examined by Mr. Gillett. You'll find
20 Mr. Gillett to your right. Mr. Gillett is counsel for the Prosecution.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic. I'm going to ask you some
25 questions concerning your evidence. If there are any questions that are
1 unclear, please let me know as we go along.
2 Now, firstly, you were mobilised into the Bratunac TO on
3 17 April 1992; right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And in June 1992, the Bratunac Battalion was incorporated into
6 the Birac Brigade of the VRS; correct?
7 A. I can't remember, but it is possible.
8 Q. In May 1992, you were located in Krasanpolje; right?
9 A. Yes, Krasanpolje, that's correct.
10 Q. Do you know a Nedjelko Mladjenovic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And was he also a member of the company of the TO in Krasanpolje?
13 A. Yes. He was the company commander at the beginning while I was a
14 platoon commander.
15 Q. And do you know Ziko Alimpic?
16 A. Yes. He died seven or eight years ago. He's a neighbour.
17 Q. And he was also located in Krasanpolje in May 1992 with your
18 company; correct?
19 A. No. Because he was old. He was not in the company.
20 Q. Did he subsequently join the company after May 1992?
21 A. Well, look, our task was to be on that village watch from to
22 Kraula to Jovankici. That's the name. Now, I really cannot remember. I
23 mean, I know that he was over 70. At the time, I don't think that he was
24 within the company itself.
25 Q. What about Golub Alimpic, Ziko's son? Was he in Krasanpolje at
1 that time as part of the company?
2 A. Yes, he was. And I think that he was in the company.
3 Q. Now, on 10 of May, 1992, Krasanpolje was attacked by Serb forces;
5 A. Not attacked. Rather out of fear, because of what was going on
6 on the 9th of May in Glogova and the 5th, the killing of Goran Zekic,
7 I've already spoken about that, the Muslims asked to leave the village.
8 MR. GILLETT: Could we get 65 ter document 32410.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we look at that, you started your answer by
10 saying: "Not attacked. Rather, out of fear..."
11 Now, these are two different things. Whether you attack someone
12 because you are attacking him out of fear or out of aggressivity,
13 whatever, but was there an attack by Serb forces; that is, was armed
14 force used against that village on the 10th of May.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 10th of May?
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness start
18 his answer again. We did not hear a few words.
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please start your answer
20 again because the interpreters missed a few words.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of what happened concerning
22 the death of Goran Zekic and then Glogova, I mean, the locals who were
23 Muslims, ethnic Muslims, they asked to leave the village, and they went
24 to the municipality of Bratunac. And then on the 10th, I mean, they sent
25 this bus, and there was this other group, I mean, of soldiers, at the
1 station in Krasanpolje. They gathered there. Some had left earlier.
2 Left the village earlier. Ran away. Probably out of fear. I don't
3 know. The bus was boarded by men, women, and children. That is to say,
4 the bus was full.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I am asking you whether armed force was
6 used against that village and its inhabitants. So could you please
7 answer that question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, force had not
9 been used.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Were you there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you didn't hear any shooting or you didn't see
13 anyone being threatened by arms, even without shots being fired. No use
14 or threat of weapons was used on that day against the village and its
15 inhabitants. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the area where I was, no,
17 there wasn't any shooting and there were no threats. I mean, they went
18 because they had asked to leave the village.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. GILLETT:
21 Q. Did you hear that there was any shooting in Krasanpolje on
22 10 May 1992?
23 A. After the departure, yes. I mean, after the departure of the bus
24 that left with the local inhabitants of Muslim ethnicity. Yes, there was
25 shooting in the evening. All of that out of fear, that somebody had
1 stayed on from the direction of Glogova so that there would not be an
2 attack from the direction of Glogova.
3 Q. Who was the shooting coming from, as far as you're aware?
4 A. The Serbs. Because, I mean, well, most had weapons on both
5 sides. So after these people left, the Serbs were shooting.
6 Q. So there was shooting in Krasanpolje on 10 May 1992 by the Serbs,
7 but you maintain there was no attack or use of armed force in the
8 village. Is that your position?
9 A. There wasn't shooting. I mean, it's only natural. These
10 soldiers who came with the bus, they were armed. I mean, there wasn't
11 any shooting when they were getting out. I mean, these Muslims who
12 wished to leave. And there weren't that many of them and they all wanted
13 to leave. So that was that bus.
14 Q. I'll repeat my question. It was:
15 "So there was shooting in Krasanpolje on 10 May 1992 by the
16 Serbs, but you maintain that there was no attack or use of armed force in
17 the village. Is that your position?"
18 A. Yes, later when they left. It was in the evening hours.
19 MR. GILLETT: If we look at --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask for clarification.
21 When the Serbs were shooting, what or whom were they shooting at?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the evening, I mean, these
23 village guards, watches continued, and that's when the shooting happened.
24 They were firing into the air.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. GILLETT: If we look at 65 ter document 32410, this is a
2 statement dated 7 July 1992 from a Muslim resident of Krasanpolje. And
3 if we go to page 2 of B/C/S and English, we see that he states the
5 "On 9 May 1992, there was nothing particular going on, only for
6 Krasanpolje, Dzafici and Lonjin to then be surrounded the following day,
7 10 May 1992, in the morning hours, by the Serb TO of Bratunac, who were
8 opening fire towards the said villages without any reason, chasing the
9 inhabitants off towards the bus station in Krasanpolje. The gathered
10 inhabitants, whom there were 3- to 400 of, were driven off in two buses
11 to the football pitch in Bratunac.
12 "When the inhabitants were being gathered, the territorials were
13 also carrying out the looting and torching of houses and outbuildings in
14 Krasanpolje and Dzafici and so, therefore, in connection with that, I
15 claim that I saw how the houses and outbuildings of the following were
16 torched ..."
17 He then lists people whose houses were torched. And I note for
18 the record in the English, the name of the village is written as
19 "Krasnopolje" but in the B/C/S original it's "Krasanpolje."
20 Sir, there were houses of Muslims burnt down in Krasanpolje on
21 10 May 1992; correct.
22 A. First of all, no way. 300, 400 Muslims on two buses? That they
23 could all fit in? No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please focus on the question.
25 The question was: Were houses of Muslims burned down in Krasanpolje on
1 the 10th of May. Could you please answer that question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 10th of May, no. Later,
3 yes, because it was impossible to protect them. During the night they
4 were burned. That is to say, after these Muslims left. Not on the 10th
5 of May.
6 MR. GILLETT:
7 Q. Are you claiming that the houses were burnt on the night of 10 to
8 11 May. Is that what you're saying?
9 A. Yes. The 9th and later. And then the 10th, during the day, no.
10 Well, I mean, there is this house that belongs to Bosniaks right next
11 door to my parents' house in Krasanpolje and that was not torched. So we
12 could not control this and --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, the question is whether houses were
14 torched. The question was not whether all Muslim houses were torched.
15 So could you please tell us whether Muslim houses were torched evening of
16 the 10th of May, the night from the 10th to the 11th. Could you tell us
17 whether that happened or not?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't only the evening of the
19 10th that the torchings took place. During the month that followed, some
20 houses were torched. I mean, most were either destroyed or ... but not
21 on that day, the 10th.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said not only in the evening of the 10th.
23 And then you said: Most were destroyed but not on the -- on that day,
24 the 10th. How many houses approximately were torched on the 10th of May?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 10th during the day, no. In
1 the evening --
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the evening, as far as I know,
4 one of these houses, a house belonging to the Avdics that is close to
5 this Golub Alimpic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how many houses were burnt, were torched
7 in the following days?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember that right now,
9 but this did happen. During the night, they were torched.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. GILLETT:
12 Q. Muslims were also killed on 10 May 1992 in Krasanpolje, weren't
14 A. No, not on the 10th. As far as I know.
15 Q. Are you saying you're not sure whether Muslims were killed on
16 10 May 1992, or you know that they were not killed?
17 A. That part where I was, no. No, they were not killed on the 10th
18 of May.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask for clarification.
20 On what date do you -- were they killed if they were not killed
21 on the 10th of May, according to your knowledge?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, as far as I know -- I mean, all
23 of these who were on the 10th -- I mean, the bus left and then, I mean,
24 at the end of the war they returned.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, my question was: You say, no, they were not
1 killed on the 10th. My question to you is: According to you, on what
2 day were they killed, if they were killed at all?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Krasanpolje, no. Not on that
4 day. Not later. Because already after the 10th, there weren't any in
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Earlier than the 10th?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Before the 10th, no. I mean,
8 before the 8th we didn't even have any of these problems.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Yes, Mr. Gillett.
11 MR. GILLETT:
12 Q. Sir, in the statement we have in front of us, various individuals
13 are listed as killed, including, Hasid Demirovic, aged around 70 years
14 old. He was killed on 10 May 1992, wasn't he?
15 A. Demirovic? I don't think he lived in Krasanpolje, no.
16 Q. Hasan Demirovic. He was listed as being mentally handicapped.
17 He killed on 10 May, 1992, in Krasanpolje?
18 A. No. I don't remember that.
19 Q. If we go to page 3 of the English of the statement, we see that
20 the statement maker lists the perpetrators that participated in these
21 crimes and included amongst them he mentions Slavoljub Mladjenovic. He
22 says: "He was one of the platoon commanders."
23 You were a platoon commander of the TO in Krasanpolje on
24 10 May 1992, weren't you.
25 A. Yes, I've already said that.
1 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I would tender this statement at this
2 stage. And I see we're coming close to the time for the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are approximately at the time for the break.
4 Any objections? No objections.
5 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7301, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
8 Mr. Gillett, I was just wondering, I don't know how you'll
9 continue, but in view of the last few questions, I would not have been
10 surprised if you would have asked for a 90(E) warning.
11 MR. GILLETT: Yes. Apologies. That is something I should have
12 raised for Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we leave it to the parties.
14 Because -- but the parties know what questions will be asked and the
15 Chamber doesn't know in advance. But now I do not know whether after the
16 break we'll continue with similar questions, because then I would still
17 do it. Otherwise, I would retrospectively I would still inform the
18 witness about it.
19 MR. GILLETT: I think to be safe it is wise to inform the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, a question was asked to you, and one
22 of the possible answers -- or at least it touches upon the possibility
23 that a truthful answer might incriminate yourself and for that reason I
24 would like to read to you Rule 90 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
25 It reads:
1 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
2 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
3 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
4 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
5 offence other than false testimony."
6 Is that rule clear to you, that if by giving a truthful answer
7 you might tend to incriminate yourself, that you can ask me to refrain
8 from answering that question and asking -- seeking permission for that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That rule applies for any question that was put to
11 you already. I don't know whether retrospectively you would seek to be
12 relieved from an answer to the question, and I especially had in mind
13 after it was read to you that someone gave, I think, your name as one of
14 voluntary perpetrators, that a question was asked whether you were in a
15 certain position at that time similar to the one that witness had
17 If you want to withdraw that answer or if you want to seek
18 permission to not have answered that question, you have an opportunity to
19 do so, and the Rule applies for any future question that will be put to
20 you after the break.
21 I hear, at this moment, no further comment. So we leave it to
22 that. We'll take a break.
23 You may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in 20
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.
6 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
7 Q. Sir, before the break, you mentioned that the villagers from
8 Krasanpolje moved out because of what happened had to Zoran Zekic and
9 events in Glogova. Now, you know who Miroslav Deronjic is; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you know he pleaded guilty in relation to events in Glogova
12 on 9 May 1992; right?
13 A. No, I don't know how he pleaded. I don't know.
14 MR. GILLETT: Can we get P3566. And this is a statement from
15 Miroslav Deronjic where he describes events in Glogova. If we can go to
16 page 20 in English, paragraph 106, which is pages 29 to 30 in the B/C/S
18 Q. Now --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would the witness know --
20 Do you know about the conviction of Mr. Deronjic, Witness?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may not be familiar with the
23 technicality of a guilty plea but apparently he is aware of Mr. Deronjic
24 being convicted.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
2 Q. At paragraph 106, Miroslav Deronjic states the following:
3 "As stated in the database, during the attack on Glogova and
4 while the operational objective goal of the plan was being carried out to
5 move the Muslims out permanently from Bratunac municipality, the
6 inhabitants of Glogova, mostly women and children, were forcibly moved
7 out of Glogova. As a result of the attack on the village of Glogova on
8 9 May 1992, 65 Bosnian Muslims inhabitants of the village, were killed,
9 the entire Muslim population was moved out by force and a large number of
10 Bosnian Muslim homes were levelled. The mosque was also torched and
12 Sir, these are the events in Glogova that you referred to earlier
13 in your testimony from May 1992; right?
14 A. No I did not testify about Glogova. I testified about --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the last word.
16 MR. GILLETT:
17 Q. Sir --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last word. You testified about
19 what, if not about Glogova?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the village of Krasan, but I
21 mentioned Glogova because the Muslims from Krasanpolje asked to move out
22 from their village because -- on the account of the events in Glogova.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's how Mr. Gillett understood it, and
24 that's what he put to you, and I think the question has now been
25 answered, whether these are these events.
1 When you refer to Glogova, you refer to the events as was just
2 read out by Mr. Gillett reflecting what the statement of Mr. Deronjic
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Sir, on 12th of July, when you came into - and this is 1995 -
8 when you came into Srebrenica as the commander of the PJP, you said that
9 you took a tour of the town; right?
10 A. Yes. The main street that leads from the football pitch in
11 Srebrenica towards Bratunac, i.e., from the road leading from Sase up to
12 the exit towards Zeleni Jadar, that main road, yes.
13 Q. And you said during this tour you saw a male dead body that you
14 said was most probably Muslim. On what basis did you consider the body
15 was "most probably Muslim"?
16 A. I concluded that because the body had been left lying there. If
17 he had been a fallen Serbian soldier, whoever was with him would have
18 probably taken him away.
19 Q. Was Nenad Deronjic with you when you took this tour around the
20 town of Srebrenica?
21 A. I can't remember. There were a couple of policemen. We were in
22 a car, a Golf 2 car, a grey car, a police vehicle from Bratunac. The
23 five of us came in it including Miroslav. I used that car as commander,
24 and I used that car when I toured the village. I can't remember the
25 policemen who were in the car on that specific occasion.
1 Q. Would it be fair to say your recollection concerning
2 Nenad Deronjic is vague around that period of time in Srebrenica?
3 A. No, Nenad Deronjic was on the bus together with Miroslav Gavic,
4 and he was tasked with scheduling the departures. I guarantee that
5 Miroslav [As interpreted] Deronjic was in Srebrenica both on the 12th and
6 on the 13th.
7 Q. When you saw this dead body on the evening of the 12th, as
8 commander of the PJP present, did you investigate the causes of death of
9 this person?
10 A. No, I did not. My task was just to secure the location. When
11 the police station was established, criminal police inspectors were
12 supposed to do that.
13 Q. A second ago, on the transcript, it appeared to say "I guarantee
14 that Miroslav Deronjic was in Srebrenica on the 12th and the 13th." I
15 take it you meant Nenad Deronjic.
16 A. Nenad Deronjic, not Miroslav Deronjic. Nenad Deronjic. He was a
17 policeman in the 2nd Company. Miroslav Deronjic was not in Srebrenica
18 with us. He was a member of the civilian authorities.
19 Q. And you said you did not investigate how this person died on the
20 evening of the 12th but that criminal police inspectors were supposed to
21 do that.
22 Do you know if they actually did investigate how this person
24 A. I really don't know. You have to ask Petko Pavlovic. He was the
25 then chief of the police station.
1 Q. Now you claimed earlier today at temporary transcript page 26
2 that you saw Nenad Deronjic on the 13th of July, 1995. Where did you see
3 him, specifically?
4 A. In the police station in Srebrenica. He was on duty. The police
5 station had already been established. The duty service had already been
6 established, and he was on duty as the duty officer at that time.
7 Q. What time of the day was that on 13 July?
8 A. Throughout the entire day. Throughout the entire day.
9 Q. So your evidence is that he was in the police station throughout
10 the entire day - and I'm referring to Nenad Deronjic - on 13 July 1995?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 MR. GILLETT: Could we get Exhibit D588 on the monitor.
13 Q. And while this is coming up, this is the Srebrenica log-book for
14 the police station.
15 Now, if we go to page 2 of the English and B/C/S, we see that
16 it's dated 12 July. And that's you assigned as working in the police
17 station at the top; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then if we --
20 A. Here this could be only for the 13th because on the 12th at 5.00
21 we were in Srebrenica, so it's possible that this refers to the 12th.
22 Q. So are you disputing that you were at work at the police station
23 as reflected here on 12th July? And I should note it's our understanding
24 this is the Srebrenica log-book.
25 A. I'm sure that this does not refer to the 12th. I was helping
1 with the station when it came to the establishment of the station, and I
2 also assisted at the check-points. So this cannot be -- or, rather, it
3 can be, because -- I apologise. 19 -- yes. Between 1900 and 0700 in the
4 morning, so we're talking about the night between the 12th and the 13th.
5 So, yes, this is plausible.
6 Q. And if we continue on a page, to the next page in B/C/S and
7 English, and if we can rotate the B/C/S and zoom in -- yes, on the left
9 Here we see for the 13th of July, 1995, that again you're listed
10 as working in the police station. That's correct, isn't it?
11 A. I worked at the police station and I also worked with my own
12 unit. I assisted the people in the station, the deputy commander who
13 been appointed and who was in charge of the establishment of the police
14 station in Srebrenica, and I also secured the check-points together with
15 the members of the 2nd Company.
16 Q. So the notation next to your name, 07 to 07 hours, that means
17 that you were on duty for 24 hours from 7.00 a.m. on 13 July through to
18 7.00 a.m. 14th July; correct?
19 A. Yes, yes. Everybody had the same schedule. They were on duty
20 for the same duration of time.
21 Q. So when you say you secured the check-points together with the
22 members of the 2nd Company, does that mean you were not physically
23 located at the police station throughout that 24-hour period?
24 A. Yes. I was not physically present. I came to the police station
25 as necessary to be briefed. On the 13th, the 14th, and on the other days
1 or at nights I slept in Domavija. There was an UNPROFOR warehouse there,
2 and we also secured that facility.
3 Q. So if you were not present at the police station throughout 13
4 July 1995, how could you state, as you earlier stated, that you were with
5 Nenad Deronjic at the police station in Srebrenica throughout
6 13 July 1995?
7 A. Not the entire day. However, he was on duty, and whenever I
8 popped over, I saw him. He was on duty.
9 Q. So when you answered my question at transcript page 50, my
10 question was:
11 "So your evidence is that he was in the police station throughout
12 the entire day - and I'm referring to Nenad Deronjic - on 13 July 1995?"
13 And you said:
14 "Yes, yes."
15 That was, in fact, not correct. He was not present at the police
16 station throughout the entire day, was he?
17 A. Whenever I popped in the police station, Nenad was there. As a
18 person on duty, he had to be. And in my absence, and that absence never
19 lasted five hours, for example, I would go to the check-points and then I
20 would return to the police station, and whenever I returned to the police
21 station, Nenad was there. I saw him, I announced my presence, I asked
22 him to see the chief, and so on and so forth. It was Nenad.
23 MR. GILLETT: If we could go one further page on in this exhibit,
24 which is D588.
25 Q. We see at the top that Nenad Deronjic is listed as being on
1 security at Domavija and Drina, I understand that's the Domavija hotel,
2 and is not listed throughout the day as being present at the Srebrenica
3 police station, is he?
4 A. What date is this? I can't see that.
5 Q. This is a continuation of the assignments for 13 July, 1995.
6 A. If he was scheduled to provide security, then he was. I can't
7 remember exactly. We're talking about the 14th effectively? Or ...
8 Q. Sir, your recollection is vague in relation to --
9 A. Yes?
10 Q. -- Nenad Deronjic's location on 13 July 1995, isn't it?
11 A. No. I know exactly that he was in Srebrenica. Whenever I popped
12 in the police station, I found him there on duty as the duty police
14 Q. Now, sir, you yourself claim to have left Srebrenica on
15 13 July 1995, and we'll see this if we go to 65 ter document 1D5360.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that.
17 Witness, here, in the sequence of this document, Mr. Deronjic,
18 N. Deronjic, is reported as having played in a role of security of
19 Domavija and Drina between 7.00 in the morning and 7.00 in the evening.
20 Do you have any explanation as why he is here reported as not being at
21 the police station, whereas you said I always saw him there, whenever you
22 popped in?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the 13th, whereas
24 this here supposedly covers the 14th and the 15th.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, it does not. That's your -- you have invented
2 This is the following page - and I take it that there's no page
3 left out.
4 MR. GILLETT: If I may. This was addressed last time D588 was
5 used, and the Prosecution at the time used 65 ter document 30998 because
6 there is a page of the English translation missing. But when you look at
7 the B/C/S and the English, it is perfectly clear that this is a
8 continuation of 13 July.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. GILLETT: The missing English translation does not change the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And has the missing English translation, is
13 now part of it?
14 MR. GILLETT: No. And I could suggest, obviously it's a Defence
15 exhibit, that if there was no objection, we could replace this version of
16 D588 with 65 ter document 30998 to avoid any ambiguity whatsoever.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'm -- I think if the parties could agree on
18 that, we would hear from the results of that. And let's focus
19 exclusively on -- that the B/C/S version. It's just names and times.
20 And -- Witness, this is -- the Prosecution claims that this is
21 just the 13th of July, and perhaps we could go back one page if these are
22 sequential pages. You see here Mr. Deronjic being reported security of
23 Domavija from 7.00 in the morning until 1900 hours in the afternoon.
24 And could we go back for one page.
25 There, also for the 13th of July, I see Mr. N. Deronjic is
1 reported as on duty service from 9.00 in the evening until 7.00 in the
2 morning. Is that --
3 MR. GILLETT: I believe it says 19.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 19, yes, yes, I mean 19.
5 So according to this document, Mr. Deronjic was only in the
6 evening, on from 7.00, supposed to work in the police station; whereas,
7 from 7.00 in the morning until 7.00 at the evening, he is supposed to
8 have worked providing security for Domavija.
9 Do you have any comment on the -- this document compared to you
10 telling us that whenever you popped in during the day of the 13th, that
11 you always saw Mr. Deronjic in the police station?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 13th, Deronjic was in the
13 police station. I'm sure of that. Gavric and him were in charge of
14 working on the schedule. In the course of that day, whenever I popped
15 over at the police station I saw him there. On several occasions I saw
16 him there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're repeating your testimony rather than giving
18 an explanation, which you may not have.
19 Mr. Gillett, you may proceed.
20 MR. GILLETT: Then we would just note if we again go further one
21 page in the B/C/S original, and given this witness's evidence which he
22 has repeated, I'm not going to belabour the point, but we see that the
23 numbers beside Nenad Deronjic's name have been altered in some way.
24 Q. Do you see that those numbers have been altered, sir?
25 A. It says here from 0900 to 1900. As far as I can tell.
1 Q. My question wasn't what you think it says. It was that the
2 numbers have been altered. Do you agree with that?
3 A. I can't confirm that things have been altered. I can only see
4 that they have been made bolder.
5 Q. I'll move on.
6 Sir, if we could get 65 ter document 1D5360, and this is your
7 statement originally given to the Karadzic Defence.
8 MR. GILLETT: If we could go to paragraph 33, which should be
9 page 9 of the English; page 5 of the B/C/S.
10 Q. And here, sir, at paragraph 33, you claim:
11 "In the morning hours of 13 July 1995, I was informed over the
12 radio that the night before our policeman Zeljko Ninkovic had been
13 killed. Zeljko was a member of the 1st Company and they were in Sandici
14 providing security for the road. He was killed by Muslims, who had
15 attacked the police in that sector before dawn. I went to the funeral in
16 Bratunac that day and returned to Srebrenica in the evening."
17 According to your own statement to the Karadzic Defence, you were
18 not even in Srebrenica throughout the day of 13 July 1995; correct?
19 A. There's a mistake here. On the 13th, I condoled the family and
20 then I returned. The burial, however, was on the 14th of July, 1995.
21 Q. There were condolences for the family on the 13th and that was
22 outside of Srebrenica town, wasn't it, where the family was located?
23 A. Yes, they resided in Bratunac. Family Ninkovic resided in
25 Q. So you did leave Srebrenica town to go and condole the family on
1 13 July 1995. That's your evidence, isn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, if I can just have a second.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. GILLETT:
6 Q. Sir, in your evidence earlier, you mentioned a dispatch.
7 MR. GILLETT: If we could get document P2111.
8 Q. And, first, sir, one of the platoons of the 2nd PJP Company was
9 located in Konjevic Polje on 13 July 1995; right?
10 A. 2nd Company, my company? Is that what you mean? No. The
11 1st Platoon of my company was in Zvornik at Kula Grad, and the platoon
12 commander was with them Dzelmic [phoen], the deputy commander of my
14 Q. Sir, if we now look at this dispatch, we'll see it's from the
15 chief of the CJB of Zvornik. Now, that was Dragomir Vasic at that time;
17 Sir, just -- not looking at the document, could you confirm that
18 the chief of the CJB Zvornik at that time was Dragomir Vasic? This is in
19 July 1995.
20 A. Of course, yes.
21 Q. If we now look at paragraph 5 of this dispatch, which is on page
22 1 English and page 2 of the B/C/S, and I apologise, the B/C/S is slightly
23 faded but we'll do our best. It states:
24 "Acting upon the President Karadzic's order which was conveyed to
25 us today over the phone, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP, (two
1 platoons-60 men) shall be dispatched to Srebrenica with a task to secure
2 all facilities of vital importance in the town, at all the [sic] costs
3 and protect them from looting and misappropriation."
4 Sir, that's the assignment of your members of your PJP to
5 Srebrenica town on 12 July; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It then goes on to sate: "It will carry out the task without
8 co-operation of military police which is busy with other tasks. A
9 platoon of this company will lie in ambush at Ravni Buljim, since the
10 Muslim groups were spotted fleeing along the [sic] axis."
11 Ravni Buljim is not Kula Grad. These are separate locations;
13 A. Yes, yes, it's in the area of Bratunac. But there's no chance
14 that anyone of my platoons was in that area.
15 Q. And Ravni Buljim is located between Jaglici and Konjevic Polje,
16 isn't it?
17 A. Yes. It belongs to Kravica.
18 MR. GILLETT: Could we now look at 65 ter document -- sorry,
19 Exhibit P6687. And this is a bulletin from the Zvornik public security
20 centre for 13 and 14 July 1995.
21 If we look at page 2 of the English and B/C/S, under point number
22 5, we see that it states:
23 "Due to infiltration of enemy military formations from Srebrenica
24 into the zone of the Zvornik CJB and areas of Konjevic Polje, Cerska,
25 Han Pogled, Dzafin, Kamen, Snagovo, Maricici, and other places at risk,
1 the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th Companies of the Zvornik CJB are engaged. In
2 co-ordinated action with the police from Doboj, Bijeljina, and Pale, as
3 well as the VRS, they are laying ambushes."
4 Sir, members of the 2nd PJP company were engaged in combat
5 operations in areas including Konjevic Polje on 13 and 14 July; correct?
6 A. No. No chance that they participated. My two platoons were in
7 Srebrenica. And this is a mistake.
8 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I've no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll start with the last
16 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Mladjenovic, for the record, this is
18 document P6687. The information contained in paragraph 5, Dzafil Kamen,
19 Snagovo, Maricici, do they say anything to you? Do you know where they
21 A. Toward Kalesija as far as I can remember, as far as I know.
22 Kamen I don't know. Maricici, also no. Only this area of
23 Konjevic Polje-Cerska. I know that. Han Pogled, that is above
24 Vlasenica, I think.
25 Q. When you said that one of your platoons from the 2nd Company was
1 in the area of the Zvornik centre in the area of Kula, I would like to
2 ask you to tell the Trial Chamber for the sake of clarification if you
3 know where this area of Kula Grad is?
4 A. As far as I know, this 1st Platoon that was led by my deputy,
5 Dzelmic, is above Zvornik. That is the highest point. I think that's
6 it, Kula.
7 Q. How far away is this area from the area of Konjevic Polje?
8 A. 20 -- about 25 kilometres.
9 Q. Did you receive reports? Did you know whether the 1st Platoon of
10 your company had any combat contact with the column of the 28th Division?
11 A. The deputy commander had to write reports to the command of the
12 PJPs; that is to say, the centre of public security. I personally did
13 not receive such a report because he would have written directly to the
14 command and the centre of public security.
15 Q. At those moments, who was he subordinated to and who does he take
16 orders from when on such a mission?
17 A. To the CSB and the commander of the PJPs, Danilo Zoljic.
18 Danilo Zoljic.
19 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like that we see P7301.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, where there seems to be some
21 differences between what is found in this document and what the witness
22 tells us, where he also tell us that reports were sent to -- to the
23 command of the PJPs, if that documentary evidence would be available
24 which would support the witness's testimony, of course the Chamber
25 would -- would really appreciate if we would have those reports as well,
1 which would perhaps strengthen the evidence of this witness.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we're working
3 on that, and we will try to identify that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P7301 then.
6 Q. You'll see it in front of you. I'd like to ask you whether you
7 know a man by the name of Haris Avdic?
8 A. Yes, he's a neighbour.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 2
10 of this document, both in B/C/S and in English. In English, could we
11 please move onto the next page. Thank you.
12 Q. In this statement which was put to you, he says, inter alia --
13 it's the last paragraph in B/C/S and the second paragraph in the English
15 "Out of the persons who participated in the looting and torching
16 I recognised among others," and now he enumerates several persons,
17 including yourself. Your name is mentioned here.
18 Now this is what I'm asking you: Were you at any point in time,
19 you personally involved in the torching of anybody's house in the village
20 of Krasanpolje?
21 A. I guarantee that I was not. And I also guarantee for these young
22 men here too. They did nothing either. Haris left with that group on
23 the bus, and after Dayton he returned for a while. Now I don't know
24 whether he was in the Federation or wherever. I don't know where he is.
25 Maybe he even died.
1 Q. Second question: You personally, did you participate in any way
2 in torching anybody's house on that day in Krasanpolje?
3 A. No. I stand by what I said: That I did not.
4 Q. I'm going to end with the following question: Do you have any
5 rational explanation as for the reasons why this man, as stated here on
6 the 7th of July, 1992, refers to your name?
7 A. I really don't know, and there's no reason. His son and I went
8 to school together. We communicated until the very departure, so,
9 really, there were no problems whatsoever. I socialised with his son.
10 We were friends. There's no reason. So I was not torching.
11 Q. Thank you. I would just like you to tell the Court what the
12 physical distance is - and therefore the time distance as well - between
13 the Domavija hotel and the building of the police station in Srebrenica?
14 A. 500 to 1000 metres, approximately.
15 Q. And do you know what building that is that is called in Drina in
17 A. Yes, that is the forestry company. It's close to Domavija, over
19 Q. And how far away is that building, Drina, from the police
21 A. The same basically. Perhaps some 50 metres, more or less.
22 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, on behalf of the Defence of General Mladic, I
23 would like to thank you for the answers that you provided to us.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no further
25 questions of this witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 Mr. Mladjenovic, this concludes your -- no, I'm sorry. I should
3 have given the opportunity to the Prosecution to put any further
5 MR. GILLETT: Apologies to interrupt and just a further question
6 arising from the re-exam.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:
8 Q. I understand you to have said that none of the persons mentioned
9 in this paragraph that we see at the bottom of the statement was involved
10 in the crimes in Krasanpolje, but in the B/C/S, the paragraph is cut off.
11 So I wonder if we could -- if you could look through those names and if
12 we could scroll over the page to make sure that you've had a look at all
13 of the names before you provide that answer.
14 A. Yes, these were members of the Territorial Defence, the
15 Krasanpolje Platoon, and I guarantee that none of them had committed any
17 Q. Well, if we could just scroll over the page in B/C/S to give the
18 witness a chance to see the names, just to be sure.
19 And, sir, if you have a quick glance, do you stand by your answer
20 that none of those individuals were involved in crimes in Krasanpolje on
21 10 May 1992?
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you need more time to read it, take your time,
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I've had a look. This
25 first part, I mean up to Nedjelko Blagojevic, I mean, they did not
1 belong. I mean, they were in the TO in a hamlet near the village of
2 Krasanpolje. Vido Radovic was not in Krasanpolje. He was an active-duty
3 policeman. Then Milomir Vasic, also active-duty policeman --
4 MR. GILLETT:
5 Q. Sorry, sir, to cut you off, but my question is: Having seen
6 these names, do you maintain that none of them could have been or were
7 involved in crimes in Krasanpolje on 10 May 1992, or do you want to
8 change that evidence?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear, Mr. Gillett "were they" or
10 "could they have been"?
11 MR. GILLETT: I meant "were."
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by the following, that the
14 young men from the TO of Krasanpolje did not commit any crime. As for
15 these others that belonged to other units, I cannot say anything about
16 them because they were not in my unit.
17 MR. GILLETT:
18 Q. Thank you. I think you've clarified that.
19 MR. GILLETT: No further questions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would have one follow-up question.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that what you told us about the
23 events on the 10th of May in that village, that you only testify about
24 your own people? And whatever crimes may have been committed by others
25 on that day, that you just don't know or you cannot be certain about?
1 A. Yes, I stand by my men in the area of Krasanpolje. Now this
2 part, Dzafici, and up there, and Brdjanini, I could not. I mean, my men
3 were not there and I cannot say anything about that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And Krasanpolje, were these exclusively your men who
5 were there? Or were there others as well?
6 A. Well, I don't know exactly how many, but there were soldiers that
7 came on a bus from Bratunac.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And they were all, as you call them, men in your
10 A. No, no. No, no. The TO Bratunac sent an escort of soldiers.
11 They were not from my men from the Krasanpolje Platoon.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think you said that they only shot in the
13 air in the evening. Would that be true for all of those soldiers?
14 A. Not all. That is to say, those who were on guard duty. Well,
15 all right. There is this possibility that there were locals, too. I
16 mean, those who were not on guard duty, that they were firing as well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen that?
18 A. No, no, it could just be heard during the night. The shooting.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So whether they shot in the air or whether they were
20 shooting otherwise, you wouldn't know?
21 A. Well, I know that there weren't any fatalities, so I know that
22 they were firing into the air.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes you can shoot on a target and not
24 have any fatalities. So that they were shooting in the air is just a
25 conclusion which you drew from the fact that there were no fatalities?
1 A. Yes. And on the basis of those who had guard duty, who were on
2 guard. I mean, from the Krasanpolje Platoon. They said that they were
3 firing into the air out of some kind of fear.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, earlier in your testimony you have also
5 referred to guard duties continuing. You remember that? Otherwise, I'll
6 find it for you.
7 A. Yes, yes, it did continue for a while. And after that as a unit
8 we went to the area of Bjelovac, where we, I mean, secured the public
9 water works.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
11 You said, answering a question of Judge Moloto, when you said:
12 "Well, in the evening, I mean, these village guards, watches,
13 continued, and that's when the shooting happened. They were firing into
14 the air."
15 The village guards, the watches that continued, could you explain
16 what village guards you had on mind, what watches continued?
17 A. Well, I mean, this platoon of mine, they continued their guard
18 duty in Krasanpolje along the road from Karaula to Jovankici.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now the question put to you by Judge Moloto to which
20 this was an answer was:
21 "When the Serbs were shooting, what or whom were they shooting
23 And then you gave the answer:
24 "Well, in the evening, I mean, these village guards, watches,
25 continued ..."
1 Which suggests that the village guards were the targets of the
2 shooting. Or have I misunderstood that?
3 A. Well, out of fear. Rather, out of fear. I mean, it wasn't that
4 they were firing at targets. They were firing into the air for a simple
5 reason: Because they were afraid. They were all civilians who were
6 engaged to be soldiers.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.
8 If there are no further questions for the witness, then,
9 Mr. Mladjenovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
10 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
11 answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the
12 parties, put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home again.
13 You may now follow the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, in
18 view of the fact that the Prosecutor has shortened the cross-examination
19 of the previous witness, we don't have the next witness ready now. We
20 are only scheduled to start working with him at half past 3.00 this
21 afternoon. Hence, we would kindly ask you to allow us not to bring the
22 next witness at this moment.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The witness -- we are informed that the witness is
25 there. Is here.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We had to be cautious. Although
2 we have not prepared him, but we asked our Case Manager to have the
3 witness here, but we would kindly ask not to bring him into the
4 courtroom. But we are in your hands and we are awaiting your decision,
5 Your Honours. We would very much like to proof this witness before we
6 bring him into the courtroom, if at all possible.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
9 Yes, I'm a bit surprised because if everyone should have strictly
10 kept to the time they scheduled, that would have been some three and a
11 half hours, and then some time is remaining. So, therefore, I do not
12 fully understand why you expected that there would be no time left.
13 Because a day in court is more than three and a half hours.
14 Let me just consult with my colleague.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you could have expected that some
17 time would be left today, as it now turns out that there is.
18 Nevertheless, the Chamber is not insisting on you calling this
19 witness now and that you'd rather proof him although he's a viva voce
20 witness. So, therefore, whether one of the purposes of proofing a
21 witness is to ask him to read his statement, if he is a 92 ter witness,
22 apparently this is not a 92 ter witness, I take it that you fully
23 prepared him for all that.
24 So therefore, still with some surprises, and the Chamber will
25 consider whether or not the time lost will be counted as time taken by
1 the Defence, but, as I said, we still have to consider that. But we're
2 losing more than half an hour in court.
3 Under those circumstances, unless there's any matter left - and I
4 may have a short matter to raise -
5 MR. GILLETT: One note. In relation to the Exhibit D588 that was
6 referred to, the Srebrenica police log-book, I'll consult with my
7 colleagues from the Defence as to whether they're agreeable to substitute
8 the translation with all the pages of the relevant section.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the original is still available?
10 MR. GILLETT: Yes. And the original has the relevant pages.
11 There's one page in the English translation that was missing, and we'll
12 consult on that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's a kind of a booklet.
14 MR. GILLETT: The original is right outside the courtroom, I'm
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that, Mr. Stojanovic, if it's a kind
17 of booklet which is different from loose pages, then if there's no
18 dispute about that, then the Chamber is not inclined to ask at this
19 moment to inspect it ourselves. But if there's any dispute about that,
20 we'd like to have a look at it.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Today, at the end of the day, I
22 would like to have a look at the document together with the Prosecutor.
23 And if you agree, I believe that we will be able to agree on the document
24 and then we will inform you thereof.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would -- anticipating, however, that the
2 parties may agree on it would like to have a look at the document, if
3 it's just outside the courtroom.
4 MR. GILLETT: Certainly. And just for the record, we maintain,
5 as mentioned earlier during the cross-examination, that there have been
6 alterations, an alteration in particular, that I drew the witness's
7 attention to, but I believe my colleague is obtaining the original book
8 right now for Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We can have a look at that then as well.
10 Meanwhile, I use the time to deal with a different matter, which
11 is P3343.
12 On 28th of January of this year, the Chamber notified the
13 Prosecution of an extra or an erroneous page that had been included in
15 On the 9th of February, the Prosecution notified the Chamber that
16 a corrected version of P3343 has been uploaded into e-court under
17 65 ter number 30587b. I -- the Chamber has not heard of any objections.
18 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the existing version
19 of P3343 with document bearing 65 ter number 30587b.
20 And, Mr. Stojanovic, if there would be any further dispute about
21 this, then of course you can revisit the matter within the next 24 hours.
22 Could the usher assist in --
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- giving the original of the exhibit to the Bench.
25 At this moment we're not primarily interested in the translation.
1 We take it that -- but in the original.
2 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. And I believe in the record earlier we
3 referred to the relevant B/C/S page of D588 as to where we maintain that
4 there is an alteration in relation to Nenad Deronjic.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. GILLETT: And I believe the ERN for the relevant page should
7 be 0177-9703.
8 If that is the page with Nenad Deronjic as the first name
9 mentioned. If not, then it's the ERN finishing with a 5.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's the one finishing with a 5.
11 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The whole ERN numbering a bit confusing, starting
14 last three digits, 702; it's the 12th of July. Then 703 for the
15 right-hand page, still 12th of July. Then for the 13th of July, there
16 was originally 703 which is stricken out. Then for the next page, which
17 is the second page also for the 13th of July, again 703 has been stricken
18 out and has been replaced here by 704. Finally, the last page before
19 entries made on the 14th, so still covering the 13th, there we have again
20 703 stricken out and replaced by 705 at the end.
21 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I believe when this came up in court
22 previously with the relevant witness, we referred to 65 ter document
23 30998, and there was a -- one or two loose leafs of paper which were part
24 of the book which may have been part of the cause of the restamping of
25 the pages.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there is one loose page, 0177-9701, which is a
2 handwritten document without a date which is in here as well. We haven't
3 looked at that. Is it -- as far as time is concerned, has it been
4 identified as what date this refers to, this loose page?
5 MR. GILLETT: I'd have to check up on that for the loose page.
6 But I believe in 65 ter document 30998 it is placed as the second -- the
7 third page on e-court, and it's a list of names that's handwritten.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I see that.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: It can be returned to the Prosecution,
11 Mr. Registrar.
12 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
13 8th of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of
16 April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.