1 Wednesday, 8 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is the case
9 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 We'll continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis; Judge Fluegge
12 still unavailable to hear the case as it was explained yesterday.
13 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
14 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours, and that would be Mr. Mirko
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 Good morning, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President.
19 I have, as I'm sure you know, been studying the cross-examination
20 for several days, and I am on the much shorter side than I was
21 originally. It's very hard to tell with a viva voce witness, but I'm
22 hoping to cut it well below two hours. I told this to Mr. Ivetic last
23 night. Though, I'm -- it's still very hard to guess. But I'm hoping I'm
24 going to be shorter. Just so let you know and let them know.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is the next witness available?
1 MR. IVETIC: He is, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then perhaps we should prepare for the
3 situation that we might conclude the testimony of Mr. Peric earlier than
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Peric.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
9 make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
10 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: MIRKO PERIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Peric.
16 There seems to be a problem with the -- is it okay, Mr. Peric, at
17 this moment with your headphones?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Peric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.
20 You find Mr. Ivetic standing to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the
21 Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
22 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
25 Q. Good morning, sir.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I would ask that you first set forth your full name, first and
3 last name, for the record.
4 A. Mirko Peric.
5 Q. And could you also please give us your date and place of birth?
6 A. 28 March 1946, Bijeljina. I currently reside as a permanent
7 resident of Bratunac.
8 Q. And, Mr. Peric, what is your current occupation status?
9 A. I'm currently retired.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be advised to come a
11 bit closer to the microphone. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, could you come a bit closer to the
13 microphone, and I think the microphone may be adjusted slightly as well.
14 Perhaps a little bit lower.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Sir, what was your employment immediately prior to the start of
18 the war in 1992?
19 A. The catering establishment known as Fontana Hotel. I was a
21 Q. And prior to that job as a waiter in the Fontana Hotel, what was
22 the job that you had immediately prior to that?
23 A. I was a policeman.
24 Q. And now I want to direct your attention to the time-period in
25 1992 when the war broke out. Were you at any time mobilised?
1 A. I was mobilised at the very beginning of the war.
2 Q. Into which entity or formation were you mobilised?
3 A. The reserve police force.
4 Q. And the reserve police force in which municipality?
5 A. Bratunac municipality.
6 Q. After you were mobilised into the Bratunac police as a reserve
7 policeman, what was your daily duties?
8 A. As a reserve policeman, together with the active police force, I
9 strolled the town making sure that nobody impaired public order.
10 Q. Were there any particular locations that you were assigned at the
11 beginning of the war to perform these duties?
12 A. Sometime later, for a few days I was assigned to be on duty at
13 the Ljubovija bridge.
14 Q. Apart from the town and Ljubovija bridge, were there other
15 locations at the beginning of the war that you performed your duties at?
16 A. From time to time, I would be called to escort somebody or
17 participate in some interventions as needed.
18 Q. Now, how would you describe the interethnic relations of
19 residents of Bratunac municipality leading up to this time-period; that
20 is, leading up to the beginning of the war?
21 A. The relations were excellent.
22 Q. And how did those relations change upon the commencement of the
24 A. When the former Yugoslavia broke up and then Bosnia wanted to
25 remain in Yugoslavia and all sorts of parties were created and things got
1 denser, as it were.
2 Q. Mr. Peric, did you notice at any time that residents of Bratunac
3 started to leave the municipality?
4 A. Yes, I was on the Ljubovija bridge and that bridge was part of
5 the route towards Serbia. We controlled the vehicles that passed that
6 way. People already started moving out from the municipality at that
8 Q. When did people start moving out of the municipality, if you
9 recall? Any specific time-frame or any frame of reference.
10 A. Well, Bijeljina and Zvornik were the first to do that, and then
11 already at the time you could tell that people started leaving.
12 Q. What kind or ethnicity of people started leaving from Bratunac
13 according to your knowledge?
14 A. Well, both ethnic groups started leaving. Both Serbs and
16 Q. Did you have any information as to reasons why people were
18 A. Apparently they were afraid and they were concerned about the lot
19 of their families.
20 Q. While you were employed with the police in Bratunac, were you
21 ever tasked with forcing people to leave Bratunac against their will?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever receive any order from civilian authorities in
24 Bratunac as a member of the police to force people to leave against their
1 A. No, never.
2 Q. Now, again still focusing on the beginning of the war, was there
3 any combat activity being undertaken by anyone either on the territory of
4 Bratunac or near the territory of Bratunac at that time in 1992?
5 A. There were occasional attacks on some villages in the
6 municipality between Srebrenica and Bratunac. How should I know? Fire
7 was open, there were skirmishes, there were attacks.
8 Q. Who was initiating these attacks on some villages between
9 Srebrenica and Bratunac?
10 A. It was Muslims who attacked from the area around Srebrenica, and
11 the Serbs held those positions on what you might perceive as a separation
13 Q. And these villages that were the subject of attacks or
14 skirmishes, what was the ethnicity of the same?
15 A. Predominantly Serbs, because those were Serb villages.
16 Q. Now covering the time-period from 1992 through 1995, were there
17 any other instances where attacks or combat activity came against
18 villages or the municipality of Bratunac?
19 A. All the Serb villages in Bratunac municipality where Serbs lived
20 were set ablaze by the Muslim military. And those people who did not
21 manage to flee on time were killed, as far as I know.
22 Q. From where did the Muslim military that undertook these acts
24 A. From the protected area of Srebrenica.
25 Q. Do you have any idea or evidence as to how often these attacks
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's compound. There is quite a
3 bit of difference between "evidence" and "idea," and where is this coming
4 from? Is this rumour, is this talk?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, could you rephrase, because "idea"
6 or "evidence" may confuse.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Do you, sir, have any estimation as to the frequency of such
9 attacks from the Srebrenica enclave upon either the Bratunac municipality
10 or villages within the municipality?
11 A. I couldn't tell you whether that happened often, but it did
13 Q. Now -- well, first of all, do you recall any specific instances
14 in the time-period of 1992 through 1995 of attacks from the Srebrenica
15 enclave that resulted in significant losses, either in terms of people or
17 A. For example, let's say Kravica village was attacked on Serbian
18 Christmas, the biggest holiday that there is.
19 Q. Do you recall what year that was that Kravica was attacked?
20 A. I don't know whether it was in 1993 or 1994.
21 Q. And do you know any other details about the attack on Kravica
22 village on Serbian Christmas?
23 A. I know that a lot of people were killed and that the villages
24 around Kravica were all looted and set on fire.
25 Q. Now I would like to focus your attention on the time-period of
1 July 1995.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so --
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness, could you tell us how did you learn
5 about the attack on Kravica and the casualties and the looting?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Kravica is 10
7 kilometres away from Bratunac and it belongs to the municipality of
8 Bratunac. There were rumours in Bratunac, people fled. It was not a
9 secret. And I don't know how many casualties there were, but I know that
10 people did get killed. I heard it from those people who had lost
11 somebody there, a brother or a father or somebody else.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. I'd like to focus your attention on the time-period of July 1995.
16 Sir, where were you assigned to perform duties in the first half of the
17 month of July 1995?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the unnecessary microphones be
19 switched off? Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In July 1995, at the beginning, I
21 was in Bratunac. We manned the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. What precise duties were you performing when manning the
24 checkpoint at Konjevic Polje?
25 A. Controlling vehicles and their cargo to see what they
2 Q. And could you describe for us where in Konjevic Polje this
3 checkpoint was located?
4 A. The checkpoint in Konjevic Polje was at the cross-roads of the
5 roads leading to Bratunac, Zvornik, and Vlasenica.
6 Q. And, sir, apart from this checkpoint that you were at in
7 Konjevic Polje, were there any other check-points in Konjevic Polje?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was anyone else performing duties at the checkpoint in
10 Konjevic Polje along with you?
11 A. Yes, the military police.
12 Q. Okay. And was anyone else from the police in Bratunac present at
13 that checkpoint apart from yourself?
14 A. There were three of us. We were all policemen assigned to that
15 duty. And there was a communication centre in a building near there.
16 There were one or two policemen there.
17 Q. Do you recall what dates you would have been performing duties at
18 that checkpoint in Konjevic Polje during the first half of July 1995?
19 A. I can't give you the exact date. The 10th, the 11th, the 12th,
20 or the 13th. Around that time.
21 Q. Around that time, do you recall how many days in total you would
22 have been at the checkpoint?
23 A. Three or four.
24 Q. During those three or four days in the first half of July 1995,
25 did you remain at the checkpoint the entire time or did you ever have
1 occasion to leave Konjevic Polje?
2 A. Yes. On one of those days I did leave Konjevic Polje. My
3 mother-in-law died, and on that day I went to her funeral.
4 Q. And how long were you away from the checkpoint on that occasion
5 to attend the funeral of your mother-in-law?
6 A. Five or six hours.
7 Q. Now at the time that you first set out for the checkpoint at
8 Konjevic Polje, did you have knowledge of the operation by the VRS to
9 enter Srebrenica?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. When is the first time that you received information about the
12 operation ongoing to enter Srebrenica?
13 A. When we arrived at the checkpoint, two or three hours later an
14 order came -- or rather, a warning, to be more attentive because there
15 might be an influx of Muslims from the hills descending to the road
16 leading to Konjevic Polje.
17 Q. Were you told anything else about this influx of Muslims as to
18 their number or anything else?
19 A. We were only told that there might be a bigger number of them and
20 that we should be alert.
21 Q. And, sir, during the days that you were at the checkpoint in
22 Konjevic Polje, did in fact ethnic Bosnian Muslims appear in the area of
23 Konjevic Polje?
24 A. Where I was at that checkpoint, not many of them appeared. They
25 appeared in groups of four or five or six. I don't know. In little
1 groups or something like that.
2 Q. Are you familiar with an individual called Resid Sinanovic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell us who he was and how you knew him.
5 A. Resid was the chief of the Bratunac police station in Bratunac
6 before the discords broke out.
7 Q. And what was Mr. Sinanovic's ethnicity?
8 A. Muslim.
9 Q. Did you have occasion to see Resid Sinanovic during those days at
10 the Konjevic Polje checkpoint?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please describe for us how it came to be that
13 Resid Sinanovic appeared at the Konjevic Polje checkpoint?
14 A. I was standing in front of the container where we rested and
15 where we slept while my colleague was working. A group of soldiers came
16 my way, and they were leading some four or five or seven of them. The
17 first one had a stick, and on the stick a white T-shirt. It was very
18 visible. I looked at him and I recognised Resid.
19 Q. And then what do you do, sir, after you recognised
20 Resid Sinanovic with a stick and a white shirt tied to it?
21 A. Since we were told that if somebody we knew came by to surrender
22 we should inform the police station about that, and that's what I did.
23 And the duty officer told me that I should single him out, or rather try
24 to single him out, from the soldiers, because we, the police, did not
25 have the right to, well, do stuff with the military. I mean, do things.
1 So I asked these soldiers and they let him go. I reported that.
2 And then they told me to bring him to that building where the
3 communications centre was, which is indeed what I did.
4 Q. If you could please be clear, who told you to bring him to the
5 building where the communications centre was?
6 A. The duty officer of the police station in Bratunac.
7 Q. Did you receive any further instructions as to Mr. Sinanovic?
8 A. Just to take him there to the communications centre, that there
9 is some room there where I should leave him.
10 Q. Okay. And then what did you do after receiving these
11 instructions from the duty officer at the Bratunac police station?
12 A. I took him there because it's not very far away, 150 to 200
13 metres away. I mean, the checkpoint. And then there, I think Zekic was
14 there - what was his name? - Dragisa. Then I knocked at the door and he
15 walked out and we talked, and the man took out the key, and then there
16 was this door right opposite his office, and Resid walked in. And when
17 he walked in, I saw there were two or three other men there, too, and
18 then I went back.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
20 be asked to come closer to the microphone. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you come closer to the microphone
22 again. Perhaps your chair should be adjusted or you should move closer
23 to the -- the usher will assist you. Perhaps the chair is leaning back
24 too much. Yes. Now, could you try to speak a bit louder as well.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. First of all, sir, you mentioned a Dragisa Zekic. Who was he?
3 A. He was a policeman who works at the communication centre in that
5 Q. Now, at the time that you escorted Mr. Resid Sinanovic to that
6 building, was there anyone else being escorted by you simultaneously at
7 that time?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I seek a few clarifications.
10 You said you were at the checkpoint and then you saw
11 Mr. Sinanovic. You were then instructed to bring him to the
12 communications centre. Where was the communications centre located?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the cross-roads where we were
14 carrying out the checks. 150, 200 metres away. Just across the road.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Now, for the remainder of that day, did you have occasion to ever
19 escort any other Bosnian Muslim persons to that building, to that
20 communications centre?
21 A. We policemen, while we were there, during our shift, we didn't
22 take anyone anywhere. We had no business taking anybody anywhere.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
24 end of the sentence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear or understand the
1 last part of your sentence. Could you please repeat your answer. You
2 started by saying:
3 "... while we were there, during our shift, we didn't take anyone
4 anywhere. We had no business taking anybody anywhere."
5 Is there -- what did you say after that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We policemen at the checkpoint who
7 worked there did not take anyone anywhere except for Resid Sinanovic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. At the time that you escorted Resid Sinanovic to the
11 communications centre, was there anyone else from either the police or
12 the military police that was escorting Mr. Sinanovic alongside you?
13 A. No. I took Sinanovic there myself.
14 Q. Could you tell us approximately how long you remained at the
15 communications centre on this occasion when you brought Mr. Sinanovic?
16 A. I didn't go into the communications centre at all. I knocked at
17 the door, Dragisa Zekic walked out, I handed over this Sinanovic, and I
18 went back to the checkpoint.
19 Q. Now, did you have occasion to go back to that same building for
20 any other purpose?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you familiar with an individual by the name of Momir Nikolic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. During those days that you were at Konjevic Polje, did you have
25 occasion to see Mr. Momir Nikolic?
1 A. I think I saw him twice.
2 Q. Could you please describe for us the occasions that you saw
3 Mr. Momir Nikolic at that location?
4 A. I first saw Mr. Nikolic when he came with a white UN APC. He
5 came out at the checkpoint, walked around a bit, entered that APC, and
6 went towards Vlasenica. I don't know. Maybe it was half an hour later,
7 a bit more than that, he came back and went towards Bratunac.
8 Q. Okay. And now on that occasion while Momir Nikolic was at
9 Konjevic Polje, did you ever see him in the presence of
10 General Ratko Mladic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, sir, if you could please describe for us the second
13 encounter when you saw Mr. Momir Nikolic?
14 A. A second time he came to the checkpoint and he asked me, "Where
15 is Resid?" And I took him towards that little house there. I showed
16 that to him. He stayed there with Dragisa, and I went back.
17 Q. Okay. And do you have any knowledge of what Momir Nikolic did
18 after you showed him to the house where Dragisa Zekic was?
19 A. Afterwards, I found out that he took Resid Sinanovic away.
20 Q. When you say you found out, from whom or how did you find out?
21 A. Somebody said that. Now, was it one of the colleagues who saw
22 that? I don't know.
23 Q. And, sir, on that occasion when Momir Nikolic approached you at
24 the checkpoint and asked for Resid, was he at any time in the presence of
25 General Ratko Mladic?
1 A. No, no. I never saw General Mladic in real life.
2 Q. Now, if I could ask you, do you know of an individual by the name
3 of Nenad Deronjic?
4 A. Yes, he was a colleague of mine.
5 Q. When you say he was a colleague of yours, in which of your
6 occupations was he a colleague?
7 A. Policeman.
8 Q. Did you have occasion to see Nenad Deronjic at Konjevic Polje on
9 the day when Resid Sinanovic was taken by you to the communications
10 centre or any of the remaining days that you were at Konjevic Polje?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we break that up? That's compound.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Sir, let's split this up.
14 First of all, did you have occasion to see your colleague,
15 Mr. Nenad Deronjic, on that day when Resid Sinanovic appeared at
16 Konjevic Polje?
17 A. I did not see Nenad Deronjic at all while I was at
18 Konjevic Polje.
19 Q. Okay. Now, during the time-period that you were at the
20 checkpoint in Konjevic Polje, how were you dressed?
21 A. I wore a camouflage police uniform with a belt, handcuffs,
22 truncheon, weapons, full equipment. Full gear.
23 Q. And how about the other members of the police from Bratunac that
24 were performing duties at that checkpoint with you? How were they
1 A. The same way.
2 Q. How were you dressed when you arrived at the Konjevic Polje
4 A. Same way.
5 Q. Did you have any change of clothing at the Konjevic Polje
7 A. No, we came in those uniforms from Bratunac, and we worked in
8 those uniforms.
9 MR. IVETIC: I would now like to call up in e-court
10 Exhibit P01438.
11 Q. First of all, sir, looking at the photograph which we now have on
12 our screen, do you recognise the locality that is depicted in this
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you describe for us what is depicted in this photograph?
16 What location.
17 A. This is the Konjevic Polje cross-roads where I was.
18 Q. First of all, could you describe for us where the roads that we
19 see depicted herein emanating from the cross-road, what directions do
20 they lead toward?
21 A. This road on the right goes to Zvornik, and this one here on the
22 left goes towards Vlasenica, and this one that comes from here is
24 Q. When you say "comes from here," can you describe in relation to
25 the photograph what side, position, or direction you are talking about?
1 A. This here is the Kravica-Bratunac road. Here, I mean. Right
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you want clear answers, then you
4 should tell the witness which road he should tell us goes where. I leave
5 it in your hands to do that.
6 MR. IVETIC: I think --
7 JUDGE ORIE: There are three options from what I see. If you
8 describe them, and then the witness will answer.
9 MR. IVETIC: I think to be abundantly clear, we might ask the
10 usher's assistance to have the witness mark the map. That would perhaps
11 be the best way.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the better option. They are all better than
13 the one you used.
14 MR. IVETIC: Agreed.
15 Q. You identified a road going from -- going towards
16 Kravica-Bratunac. Could you please identify that road by drawing a
17 number 1 in the middle of it.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please speak a bit louder.
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Okay. I see that you've marked the marking on the right, middle
24 side of the photograph. Now, you identified a road leading towards
25 Vlasenica. Could you identify that road by marking it with the number 2
1 in the middle of that road.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Okay. I see that you have now marked towards the left side of
4 the photograph, the bottom left quarter of the photograph.
5 A. Vlasenica, towards Vlasenica.
6 Q. Okay. And you also identified a road leading towards Zvornik.
7 Could you please mark with the number 3 that road which leads toward
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Okay. And I see now there is a 3 approximately in the middle of
11 the photograph. With a circle, can you identify the approximate location
12 where the checkpoint was that you were performing your duties at in July
13 of 1995?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Okay. And now I see a circle just underneath the 3 in the middle
16 of the photograph. Now, if you could show us by marking with the
17 number 4, if it is visible, the location where the house where the
18 communications centre was located where you took Mr. Resid Sinanovic.
19 A. The house is not in the picture here, but it's somewhere around
20 here. Here.
21 Q. When you say "somewhere around here," could you mark that
22 location with a number 4, which is in the direction of the house which I
23 understand is not in the photograph.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Okay. Now I see to the right of --
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Now I see to the right of the number 1, we have a 4 at the far
3 right edge of the photograph.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could tender this photograph at
5 this time as marked by the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D1028, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Now, just to the left of the number 3 that you have marked on the
11 photograph, there appears to be a white building that is between the road
12 and the river. First of all --
13 A. Yes, I see that.
14 Q. First of all, what river is shown on this photograph? Or what --
15 to the left.
16 A. Jadar.
17 Q. Now in relation to this white building at the centre of the
18 photograph and next to the river to the left of the number 3, did you
19 have occasion to go into that building at any point in time while you
20 were performing duties at the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje?
21 A. No, because there was no need for me to do that.
22 Q. Now, you have told us that you were employed at the Hotel Fontana
23 prior to the war. To your knowledge, was there anyone else --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. To your knowledge, was there anyone else with the first name of
1 Mirko who was employed as a waiter at the Hotel Fontana the same time as
2 you were?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And for the record, how long a period of time did you work at the
5 Hotel Fontana? What years?
6 A. From 1978 to 1992. 1991, 1992.
7 Q. Now, was there any other hotel in Bratunac apart from the
8 Fontana Hotel?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And was there anyone else working at the Fontana Hotel as a
11 waiter with you who had previously been employed and let go by the
13 A. No, no one.
14 Q. Sir, a protected witness in this case, RM314, has given two
15 statements that are in evidence as P1435 and P1436 --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, can we safely remain in open session in
17 view of the questions you'll ask the witness, or should we move into
18 private session?
19 MR. IVETIC: Let's do that just to be safe, move into private
20 session, but I think that everything was from public testimony.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 34247-34249 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 We'll take a break of 20 minutes. After the break, we'll briefly
18 return into private session.
19 Mr. McCloskey, do you think that cross-examination, do we need
20 private session to start with or ...
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I don't think so. I'll get into that later,
22 but I don't think I'll start. And I should do -- I'm hoping it's less
23 than an hour, but we'll see how it goes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we may spend some time in private session
25 during that hour.
1 We take a break and will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
5 the courtroom.
6 We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 34252-34254 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just for the record, the Prosecution objects to
2 the analysis that he's given regarding the Court's use of this material
3 which, from our view, is perfectly appropriate and called for.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Mr. Peric, on behalf of my client General Mladic and the rest of
8 the Defence team, I thank you for answering my questions today.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions in direct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
11 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey. You'll
12 find Mr. McCloskey to your right. In a minute he'll be standing.
13 Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.
14 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
15 Cross-examination by McCloskey:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Peric.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. You have said that you somehow lost your job as a policeman for
19 Bratunac before the war and then became a waiter at the Hotel Fontana.
20 How -- what were the circumstances of your losing your job?
21 A. I had a traffic accident.
22 Q. Can you explain? Traffic accident doesn't cause you to lose a
23 job in most places, unless you can explain the situation.
24 A. It is correct that I was driving a car and I caused an accident,
25 and one person lost their life as a result of that. After that, I was
1 reassigned to a place near Tuzla. I didn't want to do that. That's why
2 I became a waiter.
3 Q. So had you been drinking before the accident?
4 A. Not then because that happened in the morning.
5 Q. All right. I don't think we'll get into the details of that.
6 Let's go back to your --
7 JUDGE ORIE: But could I --
8 You said "not then because it was in the morning." When had you
9 used alcoholic beverage? Because that's how I understand the question.
10 The evening before?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Since he asked me whether
12 I was drunk. I thought that he meant that day, whether I was drunk that
13 day. I thought that that's what the gentleman asked me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you said -- you were asked:
15 "So had you been drinking before the accident?"
16 You said:
17 "Not then because that happened in the morning."
18 Now, when did you consume alcohol closest to the moment of the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that the gentleman asked
21 me about that day, the day when the accident happened, and I did not
22 drink. I had not been drinking.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you'd just answer my question that will
24 be good enough. You said it happened in the morning. Was it that same
25 day or the day before that you had last consumed alcoholic consumptions?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Mr. Peric, surely you've had the experience of waking up drunk
5 after an evening of drinking.
6 A. No, because I was in hospital.
7 Q. You've never woke up a bit drunk after a big night out or big
8 night drinking?
9 A. I don't know whether I had been drinking a day or two days or
10 three days before that. I don't know when that happened. When was that?
11 Since 1974. So I don't know when I had been drinking before that.
12 Q. Sir, it's a very simple question. Have you ever had the
13 experience where after a big night of drinking you wake up drunk in the
15 A. I have never had so much to drink in the evening that I didn't
16 know what was going on in the following morning.
17 Q. Okay. Let's get back to your testimony.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And perhaps -- I'm going to the area that
19 Mr. Ivetic was dealing with, so perhaps we should go back into the
20 private session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 34259-34260 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We could go to 65 ter 1D4762.
5 Q. This, sir, is the statement that we got that you gave in the
6 Karadzic case. If we could go to page 5 -- well, let's look at the front
7 page. Let's have you look at the front page first. Take a brief look at
8 that so you can get a feel for it.
9 Then let's just go to the last page. It should be page 5 in the
10 B/C/S. Is that your signature?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Let's now go to page 4 in the B/C/S and I believe it's
13 page 4 in the English as well. And let's look at paragraph 25. And this
14 is where we see that you say that:
15 "I have been informed by President Karadzic's Defence team that
16 Prosecution Witness KDZ065," and that's RM314 in our case, Your Honours,
17 "has testified that on the morning of 13 July, he was captured near
18 Konjevic Polje after fleeing through the woods from Srebrenica. He
19 claims to have seen me in a house near the Konjevic Polje junction."
20 Next paragraph.
21 "Witness KDZ065 described me as having been a policeman in
22 Bratunac, having been discharged from that duty, and having later gone to
23 work as a waiter at the Fontana Hotel and the Lovac restaurant. That
24 part is accurate."
25 So as you have done today, in the Karadzic -- in your Karadzic
1 statement, you acknowledge that this person was able to accurately
2 describe you; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You've also said that when you took Resid Sinanovic to the comms
5 building, there was some other people in that building. Those were
6 Muslims, weren't they?
7 A. I didn't go inside. But when Zekic opened the door, I noticed
8 that inside there were some other people too.
9 Q. And those other people were Muslims?
10 A. Well, who else? They must have been Muslims.
11 Q. Of course. And they would have been able to get a look at you as
12 well, wouldn't they? Had they been looking at you.
13 A. If they were looking, they could have seen me.
14 Q. And go down to paragraph 28. It says that the Witness KDZ065
15 testified on the morning of 13 July 1995:
16 "I led him and three other Muslim prisoners from the house where
17 he was being held to a warehouse at the junction of Konjevic Polje. That
18 part is not true. I never escorted any prisoners on that day except
19 Resid Sinanovic."
20 And 29, there is also -- it says:
21 "Witness KDZ065 testified that when we arrived at the warehouse,
22 among the men there was Nenad Deronjic."
23 And you said in your statement that part is untrue.
24 "I did not see Nenad Deronjic in Konjevic Polje on 13 July 1995."
25 In fact, you have testified very clearly here that you didn't see
1 Nenad Deronjic at Konjevic Polje the entire three- or four-day period
2 that you were at the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje; correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, let's go to a bit of your testimony in the Karadzic case,
5 which we have as 65 ter 32406. It should be page 17 in e-court. And
6 looking at paragraph 15, the Prosecutor, Mr. Costi, is asking you a
7 question trying to clarify, I think, what you were saying and he ends --
8 he's talking about the paragraphs 30 and paragraphs 31 of your statement
9 and then asks you:
10 "... so you're saying that you're not sure whether paragraph 30
11 and 31 are talking about a warehouse in Konjevic Polje or someone else
12 because there was no warehouse in Konjevic Polje at all?"
13 And you say:
14 "Yes. I did not see that there was a warehouse in
15 Konjevic Polje. As far as I was able to see from the checkpoint. I
16 wasn't allowed to leave the checkpoint to explore the area, but in the
17 area that was," and the next page, "immediately around the checkpoint. I
18 did not observe any warehouses."
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we go to the next page, please.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. And then the question is:
22 "So if KDZ065 talks about events taking place in a warehouse in
23 Konjevic Polje, essentially your testimony is these are all lies because
24 there was no warehouse? Correct?"
25 And your answer is:
1 "Correct. As far as I was able to observe, I did not see a
2 warehouse being there, and I'm telling you from where I was, and that was
3 the checkpoint. So it is likely that the person isn't telling the
5 Now, Mr. Costi goes on. And in the next page shows you the same
6 picture that Mr. Ivetic showed you. And asks you if you went to that
7 building, and he points to the white building that you've identified, and
8 you said no.
9 And so I'm curious, there is accusations and -- by this protected
10 witness that you deal with in your Karadzic statement about a warehouse,
11 you've said very clearly in the Karadzic testimony there was no
12 warehouse, and in that point where there is -- that warehouse was that
13 you've seen on the picture today, there is currently a gas station there,
14 isn't there? There is -- that old warehouse isn't there anymore, is it?
15 A. Yes. I'm saying now, too, that it's not a warehouse. It was not
16 a warehouse. A warehouse is something different. That's a big area
17 where some goods are being stored. As for what was shown there, that was
18 a shop, and there was an infirmary, and I cannot remember what else was
19 there. It was not a warehouse.
20 MR. IVETIC: And just so the record is clear, at transcript
21 page 40802 of the Karadzic transcript, it was clarified that this is a
22 building that KDZ065 was referring to as a warehouse. So Mr. McCloskey's
23 summation of what was in the transcript is not 100 per cent accurate.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for the argument. I will see it in the
1 So can we have P1132, page 51.
2 Q. This white building in the left of the screen next to the
3 military vehicle, that's the building that we'd been talking about, is it
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And within how long after the war was over was that building
7 erased and a gas station put up?
8 A. I don't know. I don't want to play with words when I really
9 don't know when it was torn down and when the gasoline station was put
10 up. I do know that now there is a gasoline station there.
11 Q. At the time when you were asking -- or answering the Prosecutor's
12 question back in July of 2013, you didn't know that the Prosecution had a
13 photograph of that old building, did you?
14 A. I haven't seen this picture until now.
15 Q. Well, you were shown this -- okay. Well, that's fair enough.
16 All right. Just a last point. You have very clearly spoke of the few
17 officers that were on duty during these days, these few days that you
18 were there. A few at the checkpoint, a few in the comms building;
19 correct? Those are your few Bratunac MUP officers at the area.
20 A. At that time there was only the MUP Bratunac, not Srebrenica. We
21 were all from Bratunac.
22 Q. Correct. And Nenad Deronjic you knew was a MUP officer at the
23 time and sometimes came out to that checkpoint.
24 A. Nenad Deronjic did not come to the checkpoint, and we were in the
25 same station.
1 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 30995. Sir, you'll see that this is a
2 Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior public security centre
3 Bijeljina record of a witness interview of Nenad Deronjic, dated
4 22 August 2003.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And let's go to page 3 in the English, page 2 in
6 the B/C/S.
7 Q. And if we look down at the bottom of the page in the English,
8 where we see question and answer, and it's near -- in the B/C/S where all
9 the numbers are. And you can see all those lined up numbers and the
10 question before those numbers. And we can see there that they're asking
11 about that checkpoint at Konjevic Polje, and the question I'm interested
12 in is:
13 "As far as you remember, where were you working on 10, 11, 12,
14 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 July 1995?"
16 "On 10 July 1995, as far as I can remember, I worked from 0700
17 hours to 1900 hours at the police checkpoint in Konjevic Polje. On
18 11 July 1995 I worked from 1900 hours to 0700 hours. On 12 July 1995 I
19 worked at the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje again. In my time off, from
20 1900 hours on 10 July 1995 to 1900 hours on 11 July 1995, I did not
21 engage in any activity, I was off duty and I think I spent the time in my
22 flat in Bratunac. At 0700 hours on 12 July 1995, the next shift arrived
23 at the checkpoint, and I went to the SJB in Bratunac where they told me
24 that because of the events in Srebrenica, as a member of the 2nd Company
25 PJP, I had to remain at standby with the colleagues from the entire
1 2nd Company in the Station, which is what we did."
2 Nenad Deronjic has also testified in this case and said he was at
3 the Konjevic Polje working as a MUP officer on the 11th of July and left
4 the morning of the 12th, as he states here.
5 So you didn't see Mladic, you didn't see Nenad Deronjic, you
6 didn't see any beatings. You didn't see much, did you?
7 A. I did not.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
10 Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?
11 MR. IVETIC: Not arising from this cross-examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I would have one question.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey did put to you that you hadn't seen
15 Nenad Deronjic during the days you were at Konjevic Polje cross-roads,
16 whereas what we see and hear from other evidence, other evidence suggests
17 that he had been there during those days. Do you have any explanation as
18 to why you wouldn't have seen him although other evidence suggests that
19 at least up till the morning of the 12th of July he had been at that
20 checkpoint at those cross-roads?
21 A. I am telling you really that I did not see Nenad Deronjic at
22 Konjevic Polje at all.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that, but I asked you whether you have an
24 explanation for the diverging evidence about his presence, or would you
25 consider it possible that he may have been there although you didn't see
1 him although being at the same cross-roads?
2 A. I really cannot claim that he was there when I did not see him
3 there. I really did not see him and I assert that. And I cannot say
4 now -- I mean, Judge, sir --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's not my question. My question is that where
6 other evidence suggests that he was there and where your evidence is that
7 you didn't see him, whether there is a possibility that you may have not
8 seen him although he may have been there. That's my question, whether
9 there is a possibility.
10 A. There is no such possibility. I'm saying that 90 per cent.
11 There is only the 10 per cent possibility that I could have been to the
12 container, but then somebody else would have seen him. But I claim that
13 during those three or four days while I was there, Nenad was not there
14 after all.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One other question. We discussed the
16 testimony of Witness RM314 in quite some detail. Do you have any
17 explanation as why he would be so pertinent in describing your role? And
18 I'm not asking to repeat that. Why he would do that where you say it's
19 all untrue and it's all a lie. Do you have any explanation or could you
20 give us any reason why he would have lied or at least not told us the
21 truth about that?
22 A. I really don't know. I really don't know what reason he had to
23 describe such a man. I don't know that he knows me at all. I mean,
24 since he's registered under a number, I don't know who he is. If I were
25 to see his picture, maybe I would know who this person is. I really have
1 no idea whatsoever what reasons led him to do that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I've no further questions.
3 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further
4 questions? If not, this, Mr. Peric, concludes your evidence. I would
5 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. It's a long way to
6 The Hague. And for having answered the questions that were put to you,
7 put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe
8 return home again and you may follow the usher.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
12 MR. IVETIC: We will be after the break, Your Honours. My
13 understanding is that he's on his way here from the hotel and that we are
14 one minute before the break time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first. 20 minutes. We'll
16 resume at 10 minutes past midday.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to enter the
20 courtroom, I briefly want to address the following matter.
21 Yesterday the Defence e-mailed the Chamber requesting leave to
22 add 65 ter 1D05382 to the 65 ter list. Now, that is a 92 bis statement,
23 if we are well informed, which, of course, raises some questions. I'd
24 like to know whether the Prosecution has any objection to adding it to
25 the 65 ter list.
1 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, the -- it is a 92 bis statement that
2 was used with this witness during his Popovic testimony and put forward
3 by the Drago Nikolic Defence. We would object to it being admitted --
4 added to the 65 ter list and then admitted through this witness.
5 The decision -- the Defence has made the decision to call this
6 witness viva voce, and in doing so it would be, in our view, a form of
7 leading the witness if the statement is then put to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it is used for the truth of its content and
9 has substance. Now, I do not know why the Defence wants to have it on
10 the 65 ter list and how they intend to use that statement.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you could clarify this issue.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 When we realised that a word was omitted from the summary and
15 that could have caused confusion, out of the abundance of caution, we
16 decided to tender the statement which we used as the basis for the
17 witness's summary.
18 We will probably not have to use the statement at all if this is
19 agreeable with you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But a summary for a viva voce witness? That comes
21 as a surprise as -- or is it just -- I mean, it's still not clear to me.
22 I mean, a summary for us to be informed about what evidence you will
23 elicit during the examination-in-chief? Then, of course, we don't need
24 the statement as such in evidence.
25 I'll leave it to the moment where you want to use the statement
1 in whatever way, and we'll then see whether there is a good reason to
2 have it added to the 65 ter list.
3 But let me just consult for one second with my colleague.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremic, first of all, our apologies for
6 continuing -- yes, could ... Mr. Jeremic, first of all our apologies for
7 continuing with administrative matters when you entered the courtroom,
8 which is not very polite to you.
9 Could I invite you to stand so that you make a solemn
10 declaration. The text of the solemn declaration is handed out to you.
11 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to greet
13 everybody in the courtroom. I would like to wish you a good day. And
14 now I'm going to read the text of the solemn declaration.
15 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
16 and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: NEBOJSA JEREMIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please be seated Mr. Jeremic.
20 Mr. Jeremic, you will first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
21 You'll find Mr. Stojanovic standing to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is
22 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would kindly ask you to state your name
2 for the record. Please do it slowly.
3 A. Nebojsa Jeremic.
4 Q. When and where were you born?
5 A. On the 14th of December, 1954, in Zvornik.
6 Q. Where do you currently reside?
7 A. I reside in Zvornik.
8 Q. Could you please tell us something about your education and your
9 professional background.
10 A. I completed the elementary school in Zvornik. That's where I
11 completed the grammar school as well. I studied in Sarajevo and I
12 obtained a law degree. Currently I am employed in Zvornik in the tax
13 administration where I also worked before the war.
14 Q. Did you serve in the army?
15 A. Yes. I believe that that was in 1981. I served in the JNA.
16 Q. Could you please tell us where and which arm of the army were you
17 assigned to.
18 A. I served in Sombor. I believe that my military specialty or
19 whatever you call that was a radio relay operator. I am a radio relay
20 man. That's not my profession. That was my military occupation.
21 Q. Did you receive any military education at any point in time? Did
22 you get a rank?
23 A. No, I didn't get any ranks. I was not even a non-commissioned
24 officer. I was just a lance-corporal.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jeremic, when the war started in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, where were you?
2 A. I was in Zvornik.
3 Q. Were you also mobilised, like so many others? Were you mobilised
4 into an army unit or a Territorial Defence unit?
5 A. At the beginning of the war, I believe that it was in May 1992, I
6 was mobilised as a soldier of the Zvornik Brigade.
7 Q. How long did you stay in the military? Were there any breaks in
8 the performance of your military duties?
9 A. Well, when I was first mobilised I stayed with the army for a
10 short time due to some health problems. Then I was assigned to a
11 commission for the reception and accommodation of refugees. A lot of
12 refugees arrived in Zvornik. That's why there was a commission which was
13 tasked with receiving the refugees. I was a member of that commission up
14 until the end of the year 1992, and then I was mobilised again into the
15 VRS; i.e., the Zvornik Brigade.
16 Q. When you returned to the VRS towards the end of 1992, which unit
17 were you assigned to?
18 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact name of that unit, but
19 in any case it was infantry. I spent my time in the trenches.
20 Q. How long did you stay with the unit?
21 A. I believe that I was with the unit until spring 1993, and then
22 sometime in April I was reassigned to join the military police of the
23 Zvornik Brigade.
24 Q. Could you please describe for the Trial Chamber what tasks and
25 duties you discharged in the military police of the Zvornik Brigade as a
1 lawyer by trade.
2 A. I worked in the crime prevention service of the Zvornik Brigade;
3 in other words, we belonged to the military police company. When I say
4 "we," I would like to say that there were two other people with me, my
5 colleagues Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic. And effectively we made up
6 the service that dealt with the soldiers and problems that arose in the
7 Zvornik Brigade and that involved the misdoings of the soldiers who
8 breached military discipline. We would take statements from them. We
9 would write orders with this regard and so on and so forth. If I have to
10 go into further details and describe the work of the service, I am
11 absolutely prepared to do that.
12 Q. I'll ask you about that later. Who was it who gave you your
13 specific orders? Can you tell us something about the hierarchy that you
14 were a part of?
15 A. We belonged to the military police company. We were a unit of
16 the military police. The military police company had three platoons,
17 each of them had their own tasks. And we, and when I say "we" I mean the
18 service for crime prevention in the army, we were under the direct
19 control of Drago Nikolic who was the chief of security of the
20 Zvornik Brigade.
21 Q. And where were you physically located? Where was your office?
22 Your service's office, I mean.
23 A. We had our own office in the Standard Barracks. We called it the
24 Standard Barracks, although that was the former shoe factory. That's
25 where the command of the Zvornik Brigade was also located. We had one
1 office on the ground floor of that building, and we shared that floor
2 with the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
3 Q. Besides the activities that you have just mentioned that you
4 performed as the crime prevention unit, did you personally have any
5 military assignments? Did you have to go to the front line and
6 participate in combat?
7 A. The members of the service, the crime prevention service, were
8 not engaged in combat. They were not deployed on the front line, which
9 means I also didn't have to do that.
10 Q. And now just briefly, could you please tell the Trial Chamber
11 what you did? What was it that you did? And when it comes to the grave
12 breaches of discipline, who did you send your reports to and who did you
13 report to about the results of your work?
14 A. As I told you, we were a part of the military police company.
15 There were three of us: Nebojsa Jeremic - myself - Goran Bogdanovic, and
16 Cedo Jovic. And we worked exclusively with the combatants of the
17 Zvornik Brigade. We did not decide on the gravity of a breach of
18 military discipline. It was not up to us to say whether it was a grave
19 or a light breach of discipline. It was up to the commanders to do that.
20 We were only tasked with issuing orders for those soldiers who were
21 remanded in custody in the Zvornik Brigade.
22 In the Zvornik Brigade, there was a detention unit where people
23 could be kept, as far as I can remember, for up to 15 days. That was the
24 maximum imprisonment. The commanders of the battalions decided on that.
25 We also --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic --
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Were there any --
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the matters you are dealing with now seem hardly
5 have to do anything with what is presented in the 65 ter summary.
6 Because at this moment you are dealing with matters as how to deal with
7 disciplinary matters, whereas in the 65 ter summary I read something
8 rather limited which is announced as the subject matter of the witness's
10 So if you wouldn't mind, then let's get to what you announced
11 would be the subject matter of the testimony of this witness.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Let me just
14 finish with one question related to this.
15 Q. During the work that you describe, did you have an opportunity to
16 take statements from prisoners who had been members of the other army?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I would like to draw your attention to the summer of 1995,
19 and I would like you to tell us whether you had any information as to
20 what was happening in July 1995 in and around Srebrenica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you please be a bit more
22 focused in your question. That question is like what happened in Europe
23 in 1994. That's not a kind of question which is sufficiently focused on
24 what you want to elicit.
25 Ms. Hasan.
1 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, in relation to the question
2 Mr. Stojanovic asked about the breaches of discipline, my understanding
3 of the 65 ter summary and the incidents that I understand Mr. Stojanovic
4 will get into do relate to these issues. And I can go back to this
5 question, because I know the witness didn't complete his answer and
6 re-raise it during my cross and ask him to complete that answer.
7 Otherwise, it might be a good time for him to do so now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have a 65 ter summary of three and a half
9 lines. That's all we have.
10 MS. HASAN: We do have a longer 65 ter summary than that.
11 It's --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
13 MS. HASAN: -- it's a page and a bit and it's seven paragraphs.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And when was that sent? Because it may be that the
15 Chamber is not well informed.
16 Let me just consult. One second.
17 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: That is the document that was sent last night. For
19 65 ter summary, I understand that that's the summary which was provided
20 under Rule 65 ter and not something sent yesterday evening, late. And I
21 also do not know whether that was -- I have serious doubt as to whether
22 you could then take a totally new approach by sending an e-mail the day
23 before the witness appears. But --
24 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, if I can be of assistance. It was an
25 extended 65 ter summary that was sent on the 25th of March, 2015. And my
1 understanding is the e-mail we received yesterday evening was to make a
2 correction to what was provided in that 65 ter summary --
3 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please --
4 MS. HASAN: -- with the addition of the 92 bis statement that was
5 attached to it.
6 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We may have missed some information. Let me just
8 have a look at my... I'm focusing on what was sent.
9 MS. HASAN: We do have an extra copy of the 65 ter summary for
10 Your Honours, if you wish to.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I have a screen on which I can sometimes
13 Yes. I now see the other witness summary, which was -- you said
14 it was sent the 25th of March. That was only included in something we
15 received yesterday evening, I think.
16 And again, it raises some questions about what a 65 ter summary
17 is. A 65 ter summary is a summary of the expected testimony of the
18 witness, which is filed under Rule 65 ter. And an extended 65 ter
19 summary perhaps should not be sent the day before by e-mail because it --
20 that ignores, more or less, the role of the 65 ter -- of Rule 65 ter.
21 But let's proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Jeremic, I will try to focus on a concrete question. In
24 Zvornik in July 1995, did you receive information at any point in time
25 about fighting around Srebrenica and what was happening there?
1 A. I did not receive information from anyone, official information.
2 I could just hear rumours, sort of, from the soldiers who were up there.
3 Who were up there where the fighting was around Srebrenica. What I know
4 is from the soldiers who were up there. I did not receive any official
5 information from anyone. I was not a member of the command. I don't
6 know. I mean, how do I answer that question for you?
7 Q. In relation to your own family, did you react in any way to the
8 information that you received -- just a moment, please. Just let's have
9 this in the record.
10 A. Military policemen who were on the ground said that there was
11 this enormous column of Muslims from Srebrenica that was on the move.
12 Where they were moving, no one knew. No one could say in which direction
13 they were moving, so I could not assume where it was that they were
14 going, which way they were going. And if you're asking about my family,
15 I was afraid that they might come to Zvornik, and I found shelter for my
16 family across the Drina in the Republic of Serbia and I stayed in
17 Zvornik. I sent my wife there along with our two underage daughters.
18 Q. Did you notice any movement of vehicles, more intensive movement
19 of vehicles next to the command of the Zvornik Brigade?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell us what it was that you saw.
22 A. How do I put this? There were lots of soldiers, unknown
23 soldiers, there were a lot of vehicles, also combat vehicles that were
24 passing by there, by the barracks. Where they were going, I really don't
1 Q. Did you see transportation vehicles such as buses passing by the
2 Zvornik Brigade?
3 A. Yes, I did. I saw buses. I saw trucks that were open. They did
4 not have any tarpaulin covers. Inside there were women and children.
5 And on the buses there were prisoners, men, who were sitting there in the
6 seats. And between them, there were soldiers of Republika Srpska armed
7 in camouflage uniforms. The buses went by quickly, so I could not tell
8 what unit they came from. They went by the barracks along the main road
9 leading to Bijeljina. Now whether they turned off somewhere, that is
10 something I did not know.
11 Q. Can you tell us what time of day that was?
12 A. Well, it was maybe around lunchtime. Say, 12.00, 1.00, something
13 like that. When I went out to take a bit of a walk within the compound
14 of the barracks, I had the opportunity to see that.
15 Q. During those days, did you personally have any specific duties or
17 A. Well, at one moment the military police company was preparing to
18 go out into the field, and the commander of the company of the military
19 police walked up to me and said, "Jeremic, you will remain at the gate,"
20 because the military police checked people who were going into the
21 barracks. They were in charge of these checks.
22 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long was this duty service
23 at the entrance into the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. I think I spent 24 hours there until the soldiers, or rather
25 military policemen, returned from the field. That was my first guard
1 duty at the gate, because I was not really involved in that kind of work.
2 This was done by military policemen, or rather the platoon of the
3 military police that was in charge of the gate and checking bridges.
4 Q. Can you tell us at which point in time duty was taken over and
5 how long it lasted?
6 A. Well, day and night. I was there day and night. 24 hours. For
7 24 hours I was present at the gate of the barracks, Standard. That's a
8 gate that consisted of two parts, a small gate through which pedestrians
9 entered, and a slightly bigger gate through which vehicles entered the
10 compound of the barracks. And -- how do I put this? There was sort of
11 like a room there where people could sort of sit down, get a bit of rest.
12 Q. At what time of day did duty service begin, 24-hour duty service,
13 lasting 24 hours? And when did it end?
14 A. I think it was 6.00 in the morning, and it would end the next
15 day, 6.00 in the morning.
16 Q. And just tell us one more thing. I'm aware of the fact that you
17 cannot tell us about dates. In view of your observation, you noticed
18 these buses passing by. Was it before or later or after when the buses
19 were passing by with the prisoners.
20 A. [No interpretation].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the first
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you repeat the first sentence of your
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Duty service was before the buses
1 passed by. 24 hours, from 6.00 a.m., all day, all night, until the next
2 morning at 6.00. And the next day when I managed to get a bit of a rest
3 and when I had lunch, I saw these buses, these prisoners who were passing
4 by the barracks in Zvornik. The Standard Barracks.
5 Q. Was there someone else there with you during those 24 hours? Was
6 somebody else on duty there at the barracks?
7 A. No, I already said that the military police company went out into
8 the field. They had certain assignments. Now what assignments they
9 were, I don't know. And I don't know where they went. I don't know. At
10 that moment, I did not know.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
12 ask for document P1565. Could we please have that in e-court.
13 Could we please take a look at page 4, I think, of this document.
14 I would kindly ask for the next page, please. And then we'll go
15 back to this one. Thank you.
16 And now I'd like to ask for page 3 of this document.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we please make -- have the first page of the
18 English so that we see what the headings are on those columns.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it
20 would be best to see page 3, but I respect that. Yes, thank you. But I
21 think that it would be most visible on the third page, because those will
22 be my questions. Thank you.
23 Q. Can you please look at the beginning of this list, starting with
24 number 1. This is a list of the military police company members.
25 I believe that we should go to page number -- page 3 in B/C/S.
1 And page 2 in English. Thank you.
2 And now, sir, I have a few questions about this document.
3 The title of the document is: "Troop Presence in Performance of
4 Combat Duties." The month is July. Could you please look at the list
5 and could you please tell us whether you know who is the person under
6 number 1, Miomir Jasikovac, whose father's name was Novak?
7 A. Yes, I know. He was the commander of the military police in the
8 Zvornik Brigade.
9 Q. You've just seen a number of names on the three pages. I started
10 from the last page and I moved backwards. Do you know whether these were
11 members of the military police company in the Zvornik Brigade in
12 July 1995?
13 A. Yes. These are the names of the military police company of the
14 Zvornik Brigade.
15 Q. Under 6, would you please read the name?
16 A. Nebojsa Jeremic, father's name Slobodan. That's me.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's move the page to
18 the right. We are interested in the dates starting with the 13th until
19 the end of the month. And can that portion be zoomed in. We are still
20 interested in the person under number 6.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm slightly confused about
22 Mr. Jasikovac, which was under number 1, because you asked who he was and
23 then the witness told us who his father was. So, therefore, if the
24 witness could also tell us who he was, or is there any translation
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the answer was
2 simply not recorded. I'll repeat the question, and I thank you for your
4 Q. Mr. Jeremic, could you please tell us who the person under
5 number 1 was, Miomir Jasikovac?
6 A. As I've already told you, Miomir Jasikovac was the commander of
7 the military police company in the Zvornik Brigade.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Under the columns 10, 11, 12, 13, and you can see the word "days"
11 above those columns, would you say that the records under these columns
12 reflect the whereabouts of the members of the military police company and
13 their deployment on those particular dates?
14 A. Those records were maintained by Stevo Kostic, who was the
15 company clerk. I was not in charge of maintaining the records. Nobody
16 in our service was. And I believe that Stevo was very good at
17 maintaining the records. I believe that you can tell who was absent, who
18 was present, who was on a mission in the field. I believe that he
19 maintained those records quite properly. I was not in charge of that.
20 It was the company clerk who was in charge of that.
21 Q. Thank you. What about the crosses or plus signs? What do they
22 mean, especially in column number 6 after your name? What do they
24 A. I suppose that that means I was present on the day.
25 Q. And what about the symbols for the days 13, 14, that look like a
1 letter T?
2 A. I suppose that T stands for fieldwork.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN: Sorry, just so we can follow, would it be possible to
5 get rid of the English translation and just look at the B/C/S so we can
6 see what Mr. Stojanovic is referring to.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could we do with the B/C/S version?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as I am concerned,
10 this is a very good proposal on behalf of my colleague.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we carry on, can I just get clarification.
12 Witness, you said the plus sign means you are present. Present
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Present in the barracks.
15 Present --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You've answered my question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- means.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've answered my question.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Under 6 following your name, Mr. Jeremic, after the 27th of that
21 month, as we can see, there are words, "work obligation." Would you
22 please tell us Trial Chamber until when were you a member of the military
23 police company of the Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. It says here that from the 27th July 1995 onwards, I was
25 reassigned and started my work obligation. Before I was called to
1 testify here at The Hague Tribunal, I provided an official document which
2 indicates when I was called to work obligation, so I believe that this is
3 correct. I can't remember the date, but I believe that the record is
4 straight and correct. And as I've told you, even before I was called to
5 testify, I provided a document which shows when I was called to work
6 obligation and how long I stayed there.
7 Q. Thank you. And now I am interested in page 8 of this document in
8 B/C/S and page 5 in English.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I suppose that we will also need
10 a part of page 6 in English, Your Honours, but I would kindly request
11 page 5 in English first.
12 Q. Let me ask you: In this document, you can also see the
13 interpretation of the symbols in the document. The reason why I'm
14 showing you this is the following. Do you recognise the handwriting of
15 the person who wrote this? And you already identified him as the company
16 clerk, the person who maintained the records.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Does the witness still have to answer the question,
18 where you've given the answer already? "Could you recognise the person
19 of you," Mr. A, is that seriously a question?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'll rephrase.
21 Q. My question is this: Do you recognise the handwriting that you
22 see in front of you?
23 A. No. I don't recognise the handwriting of the company clerk, but
24 I have no doubt in my mind that this is his handwriting. I'm not sure.
25 I don't know, but I suppose it is. I don't know his handwriting at all.
1 Q. Thank you. I'd like to go back to the question -- and we will no
2 longer need this document, I thank you. To the question about your
3 specific duties during the 24-hour duty service at the gate of the
4 command of the Zvornik Brigade. What specifically did you have to do
6 A. As I've already told you, that was my first time at the gate but
7 I had been briefed about the other military policemen who had already
8 done that. They told me what to do. I told you that there were two
9 gates; one small gate for pedestrians, and a bigger one with a ramp for
10 military vehicles. If a military vehicle came to the gate, I would let
11 it go. But it all depended on whether I knew the people who were in the
12 military vehicle in question. If I didn't know them, I would stop them,
13 I would ask them where they were headed, who they wanted to see. I would
14 then call the duty operations officer, who would then take the matter out
15 of my hands and proceeded from there. Pedestrians would use the small
16 gate. They were usually soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade. I knew most of
17 them after the three years that I had spent in the barracks so that it
18 was no longer necessary for them to provide any ID.
19 Q. Thank you. If a military person appeared at the gate and you
20 didn't know him and requested to be allowed to enter the building of the
21 Zvornik Brigade command, what would have been your duty?
22 A. First of all, I would stop them. I would ask them to produce
23 some ID. I would ask them where they were headed, who they wanted to
24 see, and then I would call the duty operations officer and I would ask
25 them if the officer in question was there, and whether I could bring the
1 visitor to the command. The command was only about 20 steps away from
2 the gate.
3 Q. Would you be duty-bound to allow that person to walk to the
4 command building on their own or would you have to escort them?
5 A. If I didn't know the officer in question, I was duty-bound to
6 escort him to the building. And as for the officers affiliated with the
7 Zvornik Brigade, that was not necessary. I knew most of them and I would
8 allow them to walk on their own to the command building.
9 Q. Do you remember whether during your duties sometime in the
10 evening any military personnel that introduced themselves as a security
11 officer of Bratunac Brigade came to the gate?
12 A. No, I can't remember any such instance. I don't know that
13 anybody from the security of the Bratunac Brigade arrived at the gate of
14 my command building. I am absolutely sure of that. If you're referring
15 to the chief of security of the Bratunac Brigade or -- I mean,
16 Momir Nikolic, I heard of him but I'm sure that I never saw him in my
17 whole life. During the war I was never in Bratunac, and I can claim with
18 full certainty that while I was on duty at the gate he never turned up
19 before the Standard Barracks. I'm sure that I did not escort him to the
20 command to report to the duty operations officer or to see any other
21 officer at all.
22 Q. Tell me please, did there come a moment when somebody asked for
23 Drago Nikolic that evening? Drago Nikolic was the security officer of
24 the Zvornik Brigade, of course.
25 A. I don't remember. I can claim with full certainty that while I
1 was at that gate, nobody asked to see Drago Nikolic, chief of security.
2 Q. Thank you. And now let me move to the last topic that I would
3 like to discuss with you. In the course of your regular duty in the
4 course of the following days of July, did you have any specific tasks
5 relative to taking statements from either the enemy soldiers or members
6 of the VRS?
7 A. There was one such case. A few days after the fall of
8 Srebrenica, my chief of security, Drago Nikolic, came to the office where
9 we were present, and the members of a crime prevention of the
10 Zvornik Brigade were informed by him that in the course of the day two
11 Serbs would be brought in. He told us that they were members of the
12 Zvornik Brigade. He said that there were grounds, reasonable grounds to
13 suspect that they had assisted enemy soldiers, Muslims, with the
14 intention of helping them to cross over the front line to the other side.
15 Q. I will stop you there for a moment because I have a question.
16 Did that, indeed, transpire? Were those two members of the VRS brought
17 in and interrogated?
18 A. Yes, they were brought in, as well as two Muslims. Nikolic told
19 us, before they were actually brought in, that statements should be taken
20 from them, from all of them. Both from the VRS combatants as well as
21 from the Muslims. He also told us that the brigade commander,
22 Pandurevic, ordered that the Serbs in question should be sentenced to a
23 60-day prison term. In the Zvornik Brigade we only had a detention unit
24 and we could only keep people for up to 15 days there, whereas a prison
25 sentence had to be served outside of the Zvornik Brigade.
1 Q. Who carried out that task in terms of carrying out these official
2 duties and taking statements from these persons?
3 A. It was I, my colleagues, Jovic and Bogdanovic. We took
4 statements. I mean, we took statements from Muslim persons in terms of
5 the Serbs having helped them to cross the lines, and all of this with a
6 view to having those two members of the Serb brigade punished by an order
7 issued by the brigade commander remanding them into custody for 60 days,
8 and the statements of these Muslim persons were part of this order
9 concerning the 60-day military detention. These statements were taken,
10 and I think that these persons who were of Serb ethnicity were from
11 Lokanj. I think that the name of one of them was Nesko and the other one
12 was his son, and they described in detail how they wanted to help persons
13 of Muslim ethnicity and why they wanted to help them cross over to the
14 other side -- or rather, across the front line towards Teocak.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock. We are
16 close to the time for a break. But before we take that break --
17 Witness, may I take you back for a second to that evening or
18 night when you were a duty officer at the gate of the Zvornik Brigade
19 command. We've heard your testimony. Did you ever tell the Defence that
20 that night a man came to you and introduced himself as Momir Nikolic of
21 the Bratunac Brigade security organ and that that person requested to see
22 Drago Nikolic? Did that happen during that night?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that to the Defence.
24 Before this testimony, I had the opportunity of speaking to the Defence.
25 Not with Mr. Stojanovic. But I never said that that night while I was at
1 the gate the chief of security of the Bratunac Brigade, Momir Nikolic,
2 came up to me, introduced himself, and asked me to take him to
3 Drago Nikolic. Otherwise, I can guarantee with certainty that I have
4 never seen Momir Nikolic. I do not know him. I heard of him. But I
5 never encountered him. I can claim that with certainty.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question.
7 We'll take a break and we would like to see you back in 20
9 Oh, no. Before we take that break, to whom did you speak if it
10 was not with Mr. Stojanovic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was a witness for the
12 Defence for Drago Nikolic. I don't know what the name was of the lawyer.
13 I think he was some Canadian lawyer. I think that was in 2009. I mean,
14 that is here.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did you speak with any member of the
16 Defence of Mr. Mladic?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I speak with any member of the
18 Defence of Mr. Mladic? In relation to ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: In preparation of your testimony today.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we had a conversation, but
21 there was no pressure upon me. I'm telling the truth.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about pressure. I just want to know
23 whether and when you spoke with a member of the Mladic Defence team.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I talked to Mr. Stojanovic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: When?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I talked to him in Zvornik.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you never told him that during that night
3 a man came and introduced himself as Momir Nikolic requesting to see
4 Drago Nikolic? You didn't tell him that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never told him that a man came,
6 Momir Nikolic. I never said that. I said to him that I did not know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.
8 You may follow the usher.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take the break, first of all, I'd like to
11 know whether -- and it may well be, but I have to find out why we missed
12 that extended 65 ter summary. We as Judges. Was it sent to Chamber
13 staff on the 25th of March? Then we have to really look into our own
14 organisation at this moment. If that's the case, we'll verify that.
15 Of course, Mr. Stojanovic, that new extended summary I read
16 literally part of what was announced the witness would testify about, and
17 the witness told us that this is certainly not what he said, and he
18 testified today to the contrary of what is contained in that extended
19 65 ter summary.
20 Do you have any explanation for this appearing in the 65 ter
21 summary in view of the testimony of the witness over the last ten
22 minutes? Where does it come from?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I can explain, and I'll
24 try to explain. And I said that, Your Honour, I believe that we sent the
25 summary of this witness's statement out the 25th of March, and I believe
1 that you should have received that too.
2 Yesterday, when I was proofing this witness, then --
3 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, what I want to know, that we'll find
4 out whether we missed it and why we missed it, and we have to look into
5 that being very critical on ourselves as well. But at this moment, I am
6 seeking an explanation as why you even again sent yesterday evening
7 at 10.00 extended 65 ter summary in which the witness is announced to
8 testify in a certain way, where the witness tells us that quite a while
9 ago he had told you that this is not his knowledge, even that his
10 knowledge is contrary to what is sent here. How does that come up in the
11 65 ter summary, which was again sent yesterday evening?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last night when I
13 proofed this witness before his appearance in court today, I noticed that
14 when I wrote this summary, as I was dictating, quite simply one word was
15 omitted in paragraph 7, "did not pass," and that completely changed the
16 context of that sentence. And then I saw that in the summary of the 25th
17 of March, practically, there could be a problem for me and for the
18 witness because the witness never said any such thing.
19 Then I informed the Prosecution and you that the witness
20 confirmed again what he had said to me before. And then out of an
21 abundance of caution, Your Honour, I tried to include what this witness
22 said in Mr. Nikolic's Defence, and that's why I called this witness,
23 because he said the very same thing in that summary in 2008.
24 So because of this omission in the typing up of this summary, I
25 sent this last night when I realised that there was a word missing
1 without any other reasons, if I can put it that way.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What word is missing in the English version which so
3 drastically changes the meaning of - and let me just look at the ... Yes.
4 You would say: "Duty officer: No one approached upon parking a car
5 across the street and no one came by foot nor did anyone present
6 themselves as Momir Nikolic."
7 Now I better understand. It's a denial in every respect of
8 apparently something the witness may have said before. Is that how we
9 have to understand that? Or -- because usually you do not elicit
10 evidence from the witness that what did not happen but rather on what
12 So, therefore, I do not know what triggered the paragraph 7 to be
13 drafted at all. It seems to be as some kind of a negation of what the
14 witness would have said or someone else would have said. Is that how we
15 have to understand it? That the witness denies what others have said?
16 Is that how we have to understand it?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. He
18 is denying what others said, and he never said anything different to me.
19 And he never said anything different from what he repeated here today.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And apparently, that's at least how I try to
21 understand it, that this contradicts some other evidence. Could you give
22 us a clue as to what evidence exactly this new evidence contradicts?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he denies what
24 Momir Nikolic says and also D301.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I now better understand where we are.
1 It took me a while but that's perhaps also because we are a bit slow.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: I can assist with the other task Your Honours had.
6 The e-mail was sent on the 25th of March at 11.38 a.m. under the
7 title: "Viva Voce Witnesses Scheduled for First Week in April 2015,"
8 and, indeed, the witness summary for this witness, as well as the
9 previous witness, which you asked me about, are contained in the same
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was it announced that it's a deviation
12 from the 65 ter summary as was filed or ...
13 MR. IVETIC: It says "Enclosed is the supplemented summary of
14 testimony for the above-mentioned witnesses."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Supplemented. So there is a clue to that. That's
16 good for us to know, and we certainly will review that and further, for
17 ourselves, explore what happened that we missed it until yesterday
19 We leave it to that for the time being. We'll take a break and
20 we resume at quarter to 2.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
24 Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps one question. The extended 65 ter
25 summary in the original language, that's in your language, when was that
1 prepared? Because it says a note in an error in the extended -- was the
2 original also suffering from the same mistake? Or is it just an
3 interpretation, a translation issue?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's in the original as well,
5 Your Honour. And yesterday I saw the error. I saw that this word was
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And who prepared it, if it weren't you? You
8 prepared it initially?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I dictated it.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: And when was that, if you remember?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think that day when we
13 sent that. Perhaps a day earlier, because we sent it for translation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And you had then recently spoken to the witness?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
16 Earlier on I had the opportunity to talk to him. But the preparation for
17 this was, I believe, in January, during that break. Then I saw the
18 witness in Zvornik, and then I worked with him on these notes, and then I
19 wrote that up. And then again here in The Hague.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. How much time would you still need,
21 Mr. Stojanovic?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My estimate is up to 10 minutes,
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Jeremic, we stopped at the moment when we talked about the
2 order for you to take statements from these members of the army of
3 Republika Srpska and these prisoners of war. You personally, did you
4 take written statements from any one of these POWs?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Did you take these statements in accordance with the rules on
7 taking witness statements or statements from suspects?
8 A. I've already said about the statement and what it pertained to.
9 I think it was proper on my side, proper from their side. They talked
10 about what had happened, how it had happened. They said that they had
11 lost their way, that they arrived in the village of Lokanj, near Zvornik,
12 that their intention was to cross the line of separation.
13 Q. Thank you. The content of the statement is something that we
14 will probably have an opportunity to see, but what I would like to ask
15 you is the following: Did you include in the statement everything that
16 the suspects said, exactly as they had put it?
17 A. Everything they said is correctly reflected. No pressure
19 Q. Thank you. Could you tell the Court where these POWs were put
21 A. Well, they were put up within the compound of the
22 Standard Barracks in a military room. They were not in detention with
23 soldiers of Serb ethnicity.
24 Q. Tell us, were they detained, those two Serbian soldiers, were
25 they detained as well?
1 A. Yes, they were detained. Yes, they were in custody. And then an
2 order was written by the brigade commander. I already explained that.
3 And they were sent to serve their sentence. Since this is an order from
4 the brigade commander, 60 days of military detention. And in the
5 Zvornik Brigade, there was just detention for up to 15 days. And I think
6 they were sent to a prison with the accompanying documentation, their
7 statement and the statements of Muslim prisoners. They were sent
8 somewhere to Han Pijesak. Something like that.
9 Now, I have no information as to whether they were in prison or
10 at the front line. At any rate, they were away for 60 days.
11 Q. At that time in the Zvornik Brigade, were there other prisoners
12 there too?
13 A. Yes, there were other prisoners there too of Muslim ethnicity.
14 I've already said that this column was enormous according to certain
15 estimates. As military policemen were saying, those policemen who had
16 seen the column, there were about 15.000 people. Some got lost, some
17 were late, some simply wandered off, and then some were taken prisoner.
18 And all of those who had been taken prisoner were brought to the
19 barracks, or rather to the Zvornik Brigade where they were put into a
20 separate room there.
21 Q. Do you know what happened to these prisoners later?
22 A. Well, I did not have any precise information. However, according
23 to the other soldiers, I had the opportunity to see that they were put
24 onto trucks and driven away from the Zvornik Brigade. I saw these
25 trucks. It stopped at this other entrance into the barracks. There was
1 the main entrance where the command was, and there was another, smaller
2 gate. There were these two trucks. And they entered there, these Muslim
3 prisoners -- excuse me. Rumour had it that they went to Bijeljina, down
4 there, or to Batkovic to be exchanged. I did not have any official
5 information because that is all I heard from others. Other soldiers who
6 were in the barracks then.
7 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to what happened to the
8 prisoners of war, those from whom you yourself took statements?
9 A. No, I don't know what happened to them later. I believe that
10 they had joined the other prisoners of war and left, that they were
11 driven away to Batkovic to a camp down there. I don't know what kind of
12 a camp that was. In Bijeljina. I was never there. I never saw them
13 again after that.
14 And as those Muslim prisoners were driven away, after that there
15 were no other prisoners of war. Nobody else was brought in. Or at least
16 I didn't have an opportunity to see any.
17 Q. Tell me, in view of the fact that at one point you were sent to
18 work obligation, did that also imply your physical presence in the
19 brigade on any grounds?
20 A. When I was sent to work obligation towards end of July, I was no
21 longer physically present in the brigade. I was a civilian. I was
22 absent from the brigade for two or three months and then I returned
23 perhaps in late autumn. The negotiations had already started in Dayton,
24 and soon thereafter on the 21st of November I believe the Dayton Accords
25 were signed. I left the VRS and the Zvornik Brigade on the 15th of
1 January, 1996, the following year. And I went back to my original job,
2 the workplace that I had before the war.
3 Q. Mr. Jeremic, thank you very much. At this moment, we have no
4 other questions for you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I thank you for your
6 understanding, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine
9 you, I've two questions for you at this moment.
10 Could you tell us approximately how many prisoners were taken
11 into the barracks in order to be investigated or interviewed?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to that case in
13 Lokanj, which I mentioned just a while ago, I believe four or five
14 soldiers, i.e., persons of Muslim ethnicity, were brought in.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was referring to any prisoners taken to the
16 barracks in order to be further interviewed and which you said that you
17 believed that they joined the others after having been interviewed.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to other prisoners, I
19 didn't have any contact with them. I did not take their statements. I
20 don't know. I don't know how many there were. According to my estimate,
21 when I saw them getting on the lorries, I believe that there were between
22 80 and 100 persons. I did not have any communication with them. I did
23 not take their statements. I did not interview any of them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 You'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Hasan. You'll find Ms. Hasan
1 to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
2 Ms. Hasan, if you're ready, please proceed.
3 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jeremic.
6 Just a point of clarification for the record, you mentioned that
7 there were four to five Muslim prisoners who were brought in in relation
8 to the Lokanj case, and earlier today at transcript page 64, lines 13,
9 your answer is transcribed as "two Muslims were brought in," and I'm not
10 sure that -- it's not clear to me if that's what you, in fact, said or
11 that's a transcription error given your current answer. We'll go over
12 the statements, but do you remember if it was two or four or five?
13 A. It must be a mistake in the transcript. I said the two Serb
14 combatants were brought in and that -- I don't know. There are
15 statements. I already provided several statements about that. I said I
16 don't know if there were four or five Muslim -- Muslims who were brought
17 in. I can't remember. Two Serb soldiers were brought in.
18 Q. We'll take a look at those statements, but can you tell us how
19 long after Drago Nikolic tasked you with the assignment of taking the
20 statements and writing up the order did you, in fact, see the father and
22 A. I don't know. What do you mean after? How much time? There are
23 dates on the statements and you can see when the statements were taken.
24 I can't remember the dates. You can look at the statements and you will
25 see when the statements were taken. I don't know what you mean when you
1 say after how much time did you see them. What do you mean? After the
2 fall of Srebrenica or what? What date do you want me to tell you? In
3 any case, it was sometime after the 24th or the 25th or the 26th of July.
4 But they were brought in on the same day, the father and the son who were
5 combatants in the Serbian brigade. And on that same day, those Muslims
6 were also brought in. They were all brought in on the same day.
7 Q. Was that the day that Drago Nikolic had told you to expect to
8 take the statements and to write out the order that Pandurevic had asked
10 A. Yes, they were brought on that same day. I was in the office
11 when the chief of security Nikolic came downstairs to see me. He told me
12 that I was supposed to take statements from two Serb soldiers, as well as
13 statements from the Muslims about all the things that I've already told
14 you about previously. I can repeat what the circumstances were that they
15 were supposed to talk about and give us their statements about.
16 Q. We will get into this and let's just take it step by step.
17 Who did you meet with first? Was it the father or the son? And
18 can you tell us what took place during that meeting?
19 A. I can't remember whether I met the father or the son first. I
20 really can't. At first they denied that they had helped Muslims.
21 However, later I believe that Drago Nikolic hit the son. He slapped the
22 son. And then the son cried and he said, "Dad, they know everything.
23 Let's tell them how it really was."
24 Q. Okay. And what did they, if in summary form you can tell us,
25 what did they tell you they had done?
1 A. They, and I mean it was the father who did it first, found those
2 Muslims close to their house. He spoke to them. They asked him to help
3 them get across the defence line and go towards Teocak. In return, they
4 promised him money. I believe that they promised him some money in
5 return for that favour.
6 Q. And you refer to this as the Lokanj case. Now, is Lokanj where
7 these two, the father and the son, is that where they are from as far as
8 you can recall?
9 A. I believe that that's where they lived.
10 Q. And Lokanj is in the Zvornik municipality; is that right?
11 A. Yes, yes. It belongs to the Zvornik municipality and it is
12 perhaps some 30 kilometres away from the town of Zvornik itself.
13 Q. Do you recall who took the statements from the father and son, if
14 you remember today?
15 A. You have those statements. Take a look. All the three of us
16 were present, myself, Jovic, and Bogdanovic. I really can't remember who
17 took whose statement. But we were all there, the three of us were all
19 Q. I understand a lot of time has passed, so let's just look at that
21 MS. HASAN: 65 ter 04315, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, while waiting for the document, we have
23 to conclude today strictly at quarter past 2.00 because there is another
24 court session this afternoon in the same courtroom. Therefore, would you
25 keep that in mind to stop, well, let's say, two minutes before that
2 MS. HASAN: Certainly, Your Honour.
3 Q. So, Mr. Jeremic, I know you're familiar with this document. Do
4 you recognise it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We see that it is the statement of Nesko Djokic, son of Tesanj
7 and Milka, born 1 January 1936 in D. Lokanj, Zvornik municipality. It
8 goes on to say that he's a member of the 1st Infantry Battalion of the
9 Zvornik Brigade. That would have been the father; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now the statement provides just briefly at the very beginning:
12 "On 18 July 1995, I got up early in the morning to bring grass
13 for my cattle from a field which is about 150 metres from the house. On
14 my way there, four men appeared before me, under an apple tree. I knew
15 immediately that they were Muslims, since they were covered with blood
16 and also by their clothes, because they had been fleeing from Srebrenica
17 towards their territory at that time."
18 And it goes on. If we can -- well, at this moment, can you tell
19 me, when they arrived at the Standard Barracks, did you -- do you recall
20 seeing blood on their clothes?
21 A. I don't remember that their clothes were covered with blood, but
22 I remember that their clothes were torn and not in a good state of
23 repair. But I do remember that they did not have bruises and injuries on
24 their faces and bodies.
25 Q. Do you recall the father mentioning that he had provided them
1 with food and clothing?
2 A. I don't know whether he gave them clothes. I know that he gave
3 them food. He told us that. And I can see it in the statement. I can
4 see that he asked them to give him 50 German marks to buy them some extra
5 food, which means that he intended to bring them some more food. He
6 didn't have the money to buy it. That's why he asked them for the money,
7 to be able to buy them food and bring it to them.
8 Q. So if you just look a few lines down from where the 50 marks are
9 mentioned, it says:
10 "Apart from food, I brought them an old shirt and torn sweaters
11 since they had asked me to bring them some clothes."
12 Now, I appreciate that you don't remember that, but do you have
13 any reason to doubt that this statement was taken down accurately?
14 A. I believe that the statement was taken down accurately. I don't
15 have any doubt whatsoever about the accuracy of this statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll have to adjourn for the day. And,
17 Mr. Jeremic, I would like to instruct you before you leave this courtroom
18 that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your
19 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already, or whether
20 that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.
21 If that's clear to you, we had like to see you back tomorrow
22 morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom, and you may now follow the usher.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,
1 Thursday, the 9th of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day
5 of April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.