1 Thursday, 9 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, the witness can be
12 escorted in the courtroom.
13 Meanwhile, I use the time. First of all, to briefly revisit the
14 matter of the updated 65 ter summary of the witness which we discussed
16 Mr. Mladic, no greeting to the public gallery.
17 We missed the updated 65 ter summary which was sent on the 25th
18 of March. We have taken proper care that it will not happen again. We
19 received that information only the day before yesterday very late in the
20 evening. I mean, we, the Judges. We'll take care that it doesn't happen
22 At the same time, all observations we made about just changing a
23 65 ter document, whether that's an exhibit list, whether that's a witness
24 list or whether that is a 65 ter summary of the expected testimony of the
25 witness of course is subject to approval. That's the procedure followed
1 is not the right one but we missed it, and we thought that it would be
2 wise to put that on the record.
3 Then, I have still a few other matters. The first one is one of
4 the remaining issues of the testimony of Goran Krcmar, D917. On the 26th
5 of February, 2015, D917, a video was marked for identification pending a
6 selection of the sequences by the Defence. On the 25th of March, the
7 Chamber set the deadline of the 1st of April for the Defence to make such
8 selections. This can be found at transcript page 33693, but as of today,
9 the Chamber has not heard from the Defence.
10 Is there -- could the Defence please update the Chamber on the
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't know the full details but my
13 understanding there are quite a number of selections and we're having
14 some technical difficulties in terms of having to cut those excerpts from
15 the master recording, as it were, to make a compilation of excerpts in
16 compliance with Your Honours' instructions. We're working on that and we
17 hope to get that done as soon as possible.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, since you are two weeks over the deadline,
19 deadlines are to be contain seriously, we would like to know when you
20 would expect to provide that selection.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Jeremic. Before we continue, I'd
23 like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
24 you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
25 Ms. Hasan will now continue her cross-examination and would you
1 please, when you answer any question, stay close to the microphone.
2 Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
3 MS. HASAN: Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
4 WITNESS: NEBOJSA JEREMIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jeremic.
8 MS. HASAN: Could we call up 043 --
9 A. Good morning.
10 MS. HASAN: Could we display 04315, please.
11 Q. I'm just calling up the same document we were looking at
12 yesterday and that's the statement of Nesko Djokic.
13 And if I can ask that we take a look at page 2 in the English and
14 page 3 in the B/C/S. Do you recognise the signature on the right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And whose signature is that?
17 A. Goran Bogdanovic's.
18 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04315 into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7302, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P7302 is admitted.
22 MS. HASAN: Could we now take a look at 65 ter 25698, please.
23 Q. This, can you see, is dated the 26th of July, 1995. It's another
24 statement. This time, a statement of Slobodan Djokic, son of Nesko, born
25 1 December 1975 [sic] in D. Likanj, Zvornik municipality. 1971 is the
1 year of birth.
2 Mr. Jeremic, you recognise this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it's recorded here that Slobodan Djokic is from D. Likanj,
5 Zvornik municipality, would that be an inaccurate recollection of where
6 he is from, which is Lokanj?
7 A. It is Lokanj.
8 Q. Okay. And again, this is a statement regarding the assistance
9 that was provided to the enemy as is stated there.
10 Now, if we turn to page 3 in the B/C/S and page 2 in the English,
11 please, again, there's a signature there. Do you recognise that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and whose signature is it?
15 A. Goran Bogdanovic's.
16 Q. And Slobodan Djokic, that would have been the son of
17 Nesko Djokic; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you were present, am I right, when he was interviewed?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 25698 into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7303, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P7303 is admitted.
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. You mentioned briefly yesterday that the Muslim men who were
2 brought to the Standard Barracks were -- had some bruises and injuries on
3 their faces. This is at transcript page 34305, lines 23 to 24. Besides
4 the bruises and injuries you've told us about, how did they appear to you
5 when they were first brought in?
6 A. I don't remember that I said yesterday that they had injuries and
7 bruises on their faces. As a matter of fact, I said that they did not
8 have any bruises or injuries on their faces.
9 Q. Okay. Well, we have your clarification then on the record.
10 So then let's --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Ms. Hasan, you read the relevant lines to
12 the witness. And if the witness still claims that that is not what he
13 said, then we would verify that on the basis of the audio.
14 Witness, whatever you said, we have an opportunity to verify it
15 on the basis of the audio recording of yesterday's hearing, so Ms. Hasan
16 will now read to you what you are recorded to have said and if you still
17 disagree then we'll have an opportunity to verify that, including the
18 translation given.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. So I'll start reading your answer beginning on line 21: "I don't
21 remember that their clothes were covered with blood but I remember that
22 their clothes were torn and not in a good state of repair. But I do
23 remember that they had some bruises and injuries on their faces."
24 So, Witness, does that reflect what you told us yesterday?
25 A. I do not remember having said that. Give me the original. Give
1 me my original statement.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, this is what you were recorded to
3 have said yesterday. We have the English translation available, but that
4 might not assist you that much. We have an opportunity to verify or to
5 have verified what you said on the basis of the audio, and then verify
6 whether the translation that was given to us was an accurate translation,
7 yes or no. If you say, That's not what I said, we'll have it verified,
8 but I can't give you at this moment any B/C/S version of this is what you
9 said yesterday in this courtroom yesterday as it was recorded.
10 You still challenge that that's what you said or would you
11 consider that this is possible?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I challenge that. It is not
13 possible that I said that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have it verified.
15 MS. HASAN:
16 Q. So, Mr. Jeremic, could you then tell us how did they appear to
17 you, these prisoners?
18 A. Well, all right, of course, they looked frightened, and their
19 clothes were dirty, torn, dishevelled.
20 MS. HASAN: Could we now take a look at 65 ter 04360.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 MS. HASAN:
23 Q. So we see here it's dated 23rd of July, 1995. It's a statement
24 of Emin Mustafic, son of Rifet, there's some biographical information
25 there, born in 1969 in Drinjaca, member of the 280th Eastern Bosnian
1 Light Brigade. Do you recognise this document?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. HASAN: Can we turn to page 2 in the English and page 3 in
4 the B/C/S, please.
5 Q. Is that your signature on the right at the end of that statement
6 under your name?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04360 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7304, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
12 MS. HASAN: Could we now see 65 ter 04362, please.
13 Q. Now, this is dated 23 July 1995. It's a statement of
14 Almir Halilovic, son of Suljo, born 25 August 1980 in the village of
15 Bajramovici. And if we turn to page 2 in the English, 3 in the B/C/S, on
16 the right-hand side there under your name, is that your signature?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, Mr. Jeremic, I know you've seen these documents numerous
19 times in the past. If you need the opportunity to review it a little bit
20 more, please let me know. Otherwise I'll ask you to tell me whether you
21 recognise this as the statement you took from Almir Halilovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, if we go back to the first page in the English and we just
24 stay with page 3 in the B/C/S, about halfway down the page, after
25 describing how they were following Nesko and his son's instructions on
1 how to get to -- how to cross the front lines, they were exhausted, got
2 lost, and then surrendered in a Serb village. And it records here: "We
3 surrendered" --
4 MS. HASAN: Actually, could I ask ... could I ask to go to page 2
5 in the English. Okay.
6 Q. So it says --
7 MS. HASAN: Can I just see the full page, please.
8 Q. "We had reason to believe" - this is where they surrendered -
9 "that it was a Serbian village and we surrendered there to a man called
10 Bojo. He also gave us food and cigarettes and then took us to the VRS
12 "All four of us were taken from there to Ugljevik where we were
13 interrogated. After that, we were escorted by the police to detention in
14 the army barracks in Zvornik."
15 Do you see that, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And isn't it the case that Drago Nikolic had told you that the
18 military police would be bringing in four persons of Muslim ethnicity?
19 A. Well, I don't remember now whether he said that the military
20 police would bring them in, but he told me down there when we were at the
21 office that somebody would come. Now, did he say four persons of Muslim
22 ethnicity? Well, anyway two Serb soldiers who helped on his assumption
23 helped Muslim soldiers, civilians and that a statement should be taken
24 from the Serb soldiers and from the Muslims who had been taken prisoner
25 so that later Nesko and his son, Slobodan, would be punished because they
1 helped the enemy. That's what he said to me. But who would bring them,
2 I do not remember that he told me who it was that would bring them in.
3 And later on, they did come. Soon later.
4 Q. Let me see if I can help you remember. Do you recall testifying
5 in the Trbic case before the State Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina? This
6 is in December of 2007.
7 A. Yes, I remember.
8 Q. Now, did you tell the truth when you provided your testimony to
9 that court?
10 A. I think I was telling the truth.
11 MS. HASAN: Could we look at 65 ter 32420.
12 Q. Now, this is a transcript, what will appear as a transcript of
13 your testimony in that case. I'd ask for page 14 to be displayed, and
14 it's in English, it's been transcribed from the audio, the B/C/S audio,
15 so I'm going to read it out to you.
16 At line 7, you were asked about what Drago Nikolic had told you.
17 And you respond: "He told me that the military police would bring in
18 four persons of Muslim ethnicity, I believe --
19 And then if we skip down to line 13, you say: "He came into my
20 office because it was on the ground floor, and he told me that military
21 police would bring in four persons of Muslim ethnicity, that according to
22 his information and indications he believed that those four persons were
23 guarded by Serbs on the front line," and so on and so forth.
24 Now, Witness, do you stand by the testimony that you gave to that
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. HASAN: I think the last statement we were looking at, that
3 of Almir Halilovic, I'd offer that into evidence; 65 ter 04362, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7305, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 MS. HASAN: Let's move on to the next statement, 65 ter 04359.
8 Q. Another statement. It's dated 23 July 1995. We see it's a
9 statement of Sakib Kiviric, son of Salko, born 24 June 1964 in Jagodinja
10 municipality of Bratunac, member of the 283rd Eastern Bosnia Light
11 Brigade. Now I'm going to ask to keep that name of the village Jagodinja
12 in mind because I'm going to come back to that. If we turn to page 2 in
13 the English and 3 in the B/C/S, can you tell us again whether you
14 recognise the signature on the right as yours?
15 A. Yes, I know the signature, and yes, it is my signature.
16 Q. And you confirm this is the statement you took from
17 Sakib Kiviric?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04359 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7306, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 MS. HASAN: Finally, 65 ter 04360?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that not P7304 already, Ms. Hasan?
25 MS. HASAN: You're right, I misspoke. 04361, please.
1 Q. All right. So now we have a statement dated the 26th of July,
2 1995. It's from Fuad Dzozic, son of father Senusija born 2 May, 1965 in
3 Zegojno, Srebrenica municipality, member of the 280th Mountain Brigade.
4 Now, if we turn to page 2 in the English, 3 in the B/C/S, please,
5 and I'll ask you if you recognise the signature on the right-hand side
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Whose signature is it?
9 A. Cedo Jovic's.
10 Q. And having -- if we turn back to the first page is of this
11 statement could you confirm that this was in fact the statement taken
12 from the fourth prisoner, Fuad Dzozic?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 04361 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7307, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. And, sir, these Muslim prisoners, they were made to identify the
20 father and the son who aided them; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were present during that identification process?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. HASAN: Could we please display 65 ter 04363, please.
25 Q. This is dated the 25th of July, 1995. It's a record. And it
1 reads -- as record of the identification of Nesko Djokic and
2 Slobodan Djokic. And if we just skip a few lines.
3 "The identification procedure was carried out by
4 Goran Bogdanovic, an authorised official of the military police.
5 "The following were present during the identification ..."
6 And it lists Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, chief of security.
7 Goran Bogdanovic, officer of the crime prevention department.
8 And Nebojsa Jeremic, officer of the crime prevention department.
9 Now is that consistent with your recollection as to who was
10 present during this identification procedure?
11 A. Well, if this is in the document and if this is how it is in the
12 document, then I suppose it's correct.
13 Q. Let's go to page 2, please. In the B/C/S as well, please. Do
14 you recognise that signature as belonging to Goran Bogdanovic?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. And let's turn back a page just after it lists who was
17 present during the identification procedure, we see the names of the four
18 Muslim prisoners. Now, as far as you can recall, did the prisoners
19 identify the Djokic father and son independently of each other?
20 A. Well, I can't remember whether it was done individually. I don't
21 know whether they saw them individually, first one and then the other.
22 In any case, I remember that they recognised them.
23 Q. Okay. We see just three-quarters of the way down the page, in
24 the -- what appears to be the second-to-last paragraph, last line: "The
25 enemy soldiers independently picked them out and identified them."
1 Does that help you remember whether they identified them
3 A. It says here "each and every one of them independently," so if
4 that's how it's written, then I suppose that's how it happened.
5 Q. And just briefly, if I can go back again to page 2, because we
6 see a stamp on the B/C/S document, do you recognise that stamp?
7 A. Yes. Military post. The military post of the Zvornik Brigade.
8 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 4356 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar --
10 MS. HASAN: Sorry, I made a mistake. 65 ter 4363.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7308, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 MS. HASAN: And now turning to 65 ter 04356, please.
15 Q. Can you tell us what it is we're looking at here?
16 A. This is a ruling on detention or, rather, on remanding
17 Nesko Djokic and his son, Slobodan, in custody for three days.
18 Q. And we see here that it records that detention shall last -
19 excuse me - from 24 July at 1200 hours to 27 July at 1200 hours.
20 Now if we turn the page in the English and the B/C/S - page 3 in
21 the B/C/S, please - do you recognise the signature there?
22 A. Drago Nikolic's, yes.
23 Q. And, again, that's the stamp of the Zvornik Brigade; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now I understand that you don't know who -- you don't recall who
2 drafted this particular document. But can you confirm that the
3 information provided therein about the detention is accurate?
4 A. It was 20 years ago. If it says that their detention lasted
5 three days, then I suppose that the document is correct.
6 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 4356 into evidence. I think I have
7 that number correct. 65 ter 4356.
8 Your Honour, could we have that document admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7309, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Now, yesterday you testified that the father -- the Djokic father
14 and son were sent somewhere, you thought to Han Pijesak, to prison or to
15 the front line. This is at transcript page 34298, starting at line 8.
16 And just so we're all clear and to avoid any confusion, can you explain
17 the relationship as you understand it between the three-day detention
18 that we just saw on this record before us and the 60-military
19 imprisonment that was ordered by Commander Vinko Pandurevic?
20 A. Well, I can't remember the details, but I know for sure that they
21 may have been kept in detention for three days, pending the order of the
22 brigade commander to send them for imprisonment of 60 days. Because in
23 the Zvornik Brigade there was only detention, and a soldier could be kept
24 for not more than 15 days. And then the soldiers who were sentenced,
25 i.e., who received either a 30- or 60-day imprisonment pursuant to the
1 commander's order, they were sent somewhere outside of the
2 Zvornik Brigade. I believe it was somewhere around Han Pijesak. I don't
3 know whether they were in prison for 30 or 60 days or whether they were
4 immediately sent to the front line up there. I really can't tell you
5 now, not for a fact because we never received any feedback. In any case,
6 the biggest punishment for them was the fact that they had to be absent
7 from their homes for 60 days. That's my opinion.
8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, the three-day detention did not
9 cancel out, then, the 60 days of imprisonment?
10 A. Yes, precisely.
11 MS. HASAN: Could we turn to 65 ter 04317, please.
12 Q. This is a report on the -- collaboration with the enemy. It's
13 dated 26 July 1995 from the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade to the
14 Military Prosecutor in Bijeljina.
15 MS. HASAN: If we turn to page 2 in the English and 3 in the
17 Q. Do you recognise that signature and stamp?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you recall this particular document?
20 A. I don't remember this document at all.
21 MS. HASAN: Can we turn then back to page 1, please, in both
23 Q. The report is on the Djokic father and son, and it relates to the
24 information provided by them and the four Muslim prisoners that they
25 aided. Now, it's sent to the Military Prosecutor in Bijeljina. Did you
1 understand that there were criminal charges that were being laid against
2 the Djokic brother -- father and son?
3 A. According to what I know, I believe that a criminal report was
4 supposed to be drafted, and these are all enclosures to that criminal
5 report. I don't know whether that criminal report was ever drafted or
6 not. In any case, there was an order to issue a criminal report against
7 the two Djokics.
8 Q. Do you know besides -- leaving aside murder cases, would it have
9 been customary for you to receive information back from the
10 Military Prosecutor's office about the disposition of charges that your
11 unit had referred to the Military Prosecutor?
12 A. I did not have any feedback. I believe that our department never
13 received any official information from the Military Prosecutor about the
14 disposition of charges against soldiers of -- of the VRS.
15 Q. And when Vinko Pandurevic issues an order for the imprisonment
16 for a term of 60 days, did he have to await approval from the
17 Military Prosecutor?
18 A. Let me put it this way: I'm talking about the department
19 specifically. Vinko Pandurevic never personally told us, Issue an order
20 on behalf of the brigade commander. It was always communicated to us by
21 Drago Nikolic, chief of security. So we never received a direct order
22 from Pandurevic about either a -- the 30-day imprisonment or the 60-day
24 Q. But returning to my question, did you have an understanding that
25 approval had to be sought from the military courts before 60-day of
1 military imprisonment was issued?
2 A. No.
3 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I'd offer 65 ter 4317 into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7310, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. Mr. Jeremic, now, this Chamber has received evidence from a
9 survivor who had escaped executions at the Branjevo military farm and
10 that he escaped together with four other Muslim men. One of the other
11 survivors he was with was from Jagodinja. This is the village Sakib
12 Kiviric was from, as is recorded in the statement you took.
13 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, this is evidence from RM255 that I'm
14 referring to.
15 Q. Now, this witness had observed blood on the clothing of the
16 prisoner, and while he tried to keep up with the prisoners who -- the
17 four other prisoners -- sorry. The four other Muslim men who were with
18 him he said they were younger than him and he couldn't keep up and he
19 lost them along the way. So it's our position, the Prosecution's
20 position, that the four Muslims who survived the executions at the
21 Branjevo farm on 16th, 17th July and who were encountered by
22 Witness RM255 were the four Muslim men that Nesko Djokic and his son
23 encountered near their house in Lokanj on 18 July 1995.
24 Sir, you would agree with me that the village of Lokanj is
25 located very near to the Branjevo military farm near Pilica?
1 A. Well, yes, I know where the village of Lokanj is. I also know
2 where Branjevo is. But I was never there during the war.
3 Q. But you'd agree that these locations, the village of Lokanj is
4 very near to where these massacres took place at the Branjevo Military
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. This is a very
7 broadly put question. When the Prosecutor says "very close," what does
8 she mean? Can you specify the meaning of the phrase "very close."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let me do as following. Can the parties agree
10 on what that distance is?
11 MS. HASAN: We can certainly meet and agree to that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Both the question was --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe we can. When I
14 examined the witness, Your Honour, you'll remember we had -- we
15 maintained the same position, and we agreed to agree and in -- in order
16 to avoid asking the witnesses to define any distance. I believe that we
17 can agree on that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: General guidance for the parties: If the locations
19 are known, are identified with sufficient precision, don't ask witnesses
20 about distances but, rather, take a map and look at those maps.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one digression,
23 Your Honours. I believe I am familiar with the area. The village of
24 Lokanj is an elongated village so I believe that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you want to
1 say that it's not certain that the location of the village could be
2 identified with sufficient precision, then, of course, if that would be
3 an obstacle to reaching agreement - and you said a minute ago that you
4 expected that you could - then, of course, that would perhaps be a
5 problem, but even if a village is 500 metres long, which is perhaps
6 longer than usual, then you still can say that from the one end of the
7 village to Branjevo farm, it's that distance; from the other end of the
8 village, it would be this distance. I mean, let's not bother witnesses
9 with what the parties -- which is not in dispute apparently and which is
10 to be resolved by the parties themselves.
11 MS. HASAN:
12 Q. Witness, you did understand that the four Muslim men who were
13 brought to the Standard Barracks, from whom statements were taken, had
14 survived a mass execution at the Branjevo Military Farm?
15 A. I don't know anything about that. This is the first time I hear
16 it from you. I really don't know anything about that. I was never in
17 Branjevo. I don't know where they came from. They provided their
18 statements the way they did, and ... I don't know. I haven't a clue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, have you never heard about a larger number
20 of Muslims being executed or have been killed at Branjevo farm? Never
21 heard about that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear about that, but only
23 after the war and while following the work of this Tribunal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said I don't know anything about that.
25 That's clear. "This is the first time I hear it from you." So that
1 wasn't the truth, because you heard about it after the war earlier, isn't
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard about that after the
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I
6 would kindly ask the witness to remove his headphones for a moment.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you understand the English language, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I also have a request that
10 this objection should be put forth by my learned friend who speaks
11 English. I wouldn't be able to do that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is there any translation issue?
13 MR. IVETIC: The issue is with Your Honour's question, which
14 misstates the evidence. At transcript page 19, line 12 to 14, the
15 question relates to the four Muslim men being from that massacre, which
16 the witness said, he's hearing about it for the first time. So Your
17 Honours' question misplaces the evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If that is the case, let me re-read it.
19 Yes, that's -- really some ambiguity in it. Whether he heard for
20 the first time those who escaped. That's fully admitted, Mr. Ivetic,
21 that I put it in a way to the witness which is not fair to him, and I
22 apologise for that.
23 Let's resume.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. And, witness, I will get back to your knowledge of the mass -- I
1 will get back to [Previous translation continues] ...
2 A. Yes, yes, I can hear you.
3 Q. I will get back to what you knew about the massacres that were
4 taking place shortly. But at this point now, after the investigation of
5 this case involving the Djokic father and son, you noticed that the four
6 Muslim prisoners were no longer there at the barracks; isn't that
8 A. I didn't see them after that.
9 MS. HASAN: If we can take look at 65 ter 25697.
10 Q. Mr. Jeremic, this is a statement you gave to the Office of the
11 Prosecutor on the 12th of January, 2006. Do you recognise your signature
12 on the front page of that statement?
13 A. Yes, yes, I do.
14 Q. Okay. And if we turn to the last page so we can see the
15 signature there.
16 MS. HASAN: Sorry, the page before. And could we also look at
17 the B/C/S, please. Page 7. Thank you.
18 Q. Is that your signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And now could we look at e-court page 4 in the English and page 5
21 in the B/C/S, please, do you recall, in the interim, telling the truth to
22 the Prosecution?
23 A. Yes, I stand by that.
24 MS. HASAN: Sorry, it's the previous page. I'm interested in
25 paragraph 17. And in the B/C/S the next -- no. We had the right page in
1 the English. That's right. And in the B/C/S, can we turn the page,
2 please. Okay.
3 Q. Let's look at paragraph 17. It reads: "After this
4 investigation, the prisoners were returned to the detention room at the
5 brigade. I knew that the prisoners remained there for a time as I used
6 to walk down that passage on occasion. Some days later, I noticed that
7 the prisoners were no longer there. I do not know what ... happened to
8 the prisoners and have never received any official explanation as to what
9 became of them. In my opinion, the brigade commander or the chief of
10 security were the ones who made the decisions about the prisoners. I was
11 not at any meetings where the fate of the prisoners were discussed."
12 Now, sir, do you stand by what you -- your statement -- the --
13 what I've read out from your statement?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And yesterday you were asked whether you had any personal
16 knowledge of what happened to these Muslim prisoners who you took
17 statements from. And you said you didn't know, as I've just read out
18 what had happened to them but you went on to tell this Chamber and this
19 is at transcript 34299, starting at line 9: "I believe that they had
20 joined the other prisoners of war and left, that they were driven away to
21 Batkovic to a camp down there. I don't know what kind of camp that was
22 in Bijeljina."
23 Now, sir, the last known location of these prisoners was at the
24 Standard Barracks, and these prisoners are still missing today. We have
25 the record, and this Chamber has the record of the prisoners that were
1 registered at the Batkovic collection centre and who were exchanged, and
2 they are not amongst them.
3 MS. HASAN: That's P2132 for your reference.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Repeat the number, please.
5 MS. HASAN: P2132.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. One of these four Muslim prisoners, Almir Halilovic, he was just
9 around 15 years old, and he's still missing today. So I'm going to give
10 you to opportunity to please tell us for the sake of his mother, his
11 surviving relatives, what do you know about what happened to these
12 prisoners and where can they be found?
13 A. I've already told you once that I did not make decisions and I
14 have idea whatsoever who it was that did make decisions. I mean, what
15 kind of question is this. I don't know. I mean, really, I don't know
16 anything. As can you see from here I was just taking statements so that
17 Nesko and his son would be punished. I'm sorry if this happened. I
18 really have no idea what happened to them. Can somebody here believe
19 what I'm saying?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.
21 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I note the time, and it would be a good
22 time for the break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we're even a bit late for the break.
24 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes after the break.
25 You may follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
6 in the courtroom, it's not one of the best days of this Chamber.
7 First of all, in relation to the guidance I gave in the margin
8 this morning, well, whether it was guidance or not but I emphasised that
9 for an update of a Rule 65 ter witness summary that you would have to
10 seek approval. Now I think it's three years ago that we said that we
11 allowed the parties to -- to do without that formality, so that is hereby
12 corrected. Because at the time we said that the parties do not need to
13 seek leave to amend the summaries which you would expect on the basis of
14 the Rules but we desisted from that formality.
15 Now, there's another matter, the verification of what the witness
16 said yesterday about whether he remembered he had seen bruises and
17 injuries on the faces of the prisoners. Turns out to be that there's a
18 translation error and I will put that to the witness in a second when he
19 enters the courtroom.
20 Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours had asked for us to report as to the
22 video D917.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: I can report that we'll be submitting a compilation
25 of the excerpts tomorrow on DVD.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated. Perhaps since we're still
2 waiting for the witness, Ms. Hasan, you are again and again referring to
3 having survived the massacre or the execution at Branjevo farm. Is it
4 really survival or is it that they escaped it?
5 MS. HASAN: Well, they -- they escaped -- they survived and
6 escaped it. I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: The problem -- I had no opportunity to fully go back
9 into the background of it, but if you are lost from a group before they
10 end up at the location where there's an execution, then you could say you
11 escape and therefore survive but in that respect, of course, many
12 others -- those who escaped would not usually refer to as survivors.
13 MS. HASAN: So can I confirm that they survived. It's our
14 position that they survived.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please forgive me that I do not have all
16 the details of the evidence in my head, that's then clear.
17 Witness, before we continue, I'd like to revisit a matter which
18 we discussed earlier. When you said, I never told this Court that you
19 had remembered that the -- that the imprisoned or the Muslims which were
20 captured had bruises and injuries, we have that verified, and I think you
21 rightly insisted on a verification. Because what was interpreted to us:
22 "But I do remember that they had some bruises and injuries on their
23 faces," should have been, the accurate translation should have been:
24 "But I do remember that they did not have bruises and injuries on their
25 faces and bodies," so it is hereby verified that you indeed denied to
1 have seen bruises and injuries on their faces and bodies.
2 I think in fairness to you, we should -- we should clarify this
3 immediately. We have done so, and you were right.
4 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
5 MS. HASAN:
6 Q. You testified yesterday that the crime prevention unit which you
7 were a member of was -- fell under the control of Drago Nikolic. I'd
8 just like to understand the procedure that took place on a daily basis,
9 and if you can confirm that I understand the procedure correctly.
10 Namely, that on a daily basis, you would meet with the chief of security
11 or inform him of the situation, as far as military detention is
12 concerned, he would go to a briefing with the brigade commander, and
13 after that, you and your colleagues would either be summoned by
14 Drago Nikolic to his office or he would call you and he would hand down
15 the instructions as to what your tasks were that day.
16 Have I encapsulated that correctly?
17 A. Yes, have you encapsulated the procedure correctly. But we are
18 talking about the detention unit of the Zvornik Brigade and its
19 combatants; you didn't say that. We informed him how many men were in
20 detention from the Zvornik Brigade and as far as the Muslim prisoners are
21 concerned, let me explain about the detention of the Zvornik Brigade. We
22 kept full records. We knew how much detention was ordered by the
23 battalion commander up to 15 days and so on and so forth. As for Muslim
24 prisoners, our service did not from any information, we didn't know their
25 number, we did not keep their records, nor did anybody ever inform us
1 about any such thing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down, please, because otherwise the
3 interpreters are unable to follow you.
4 Please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, I will repeat. Shall
6 I repeat? Shall I explain again?
7 What you said about our meetings with Drago Nikolic is correct
8 but those meetings were exclusively linked to the Zvornik Brigade
9 detention, i.e., the detention of the Zvornik Brigade where the
10 combatants of the Zvornik Brigade were kept.
11 MS. HASAN:
12 Q. Witness, I'll just stop you because we do have your complete
13 answer, I believe.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were at risk to speak in your
15 correction as fast as you did the first time. So could you please slow
16 down in your following answers.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. So when Drago Nikolic was absent, who would have been the person
20 who provided you with instructions?
21 A. His deputy, Milorad Trbic. But I repeat. That applied only to
22 the combatants of the Zvornik Brigade who were detained.
23 Q. And as far as any combat-related tasks were concerned within the
24 sphere of the military police, who was your superior?
25 A. The commander of the military police company,
1 Lieutenant Miomir Jasikovac. However, the crime prevention department
2 did not get engaged in combat. The police themselves very seldom were.
3 We were involved in policing duties, bringing people in, controlling
4 bridges, traffic control. There were three military police platoons
5 within the military police company and there was also our department, the
6 crime prevention department. We were never engaged in combat.
7 Q. Now, the Standard Barracks we've been talking about, where were
8 they located?
9 A. On the main road between Zvornik and Bijeljina, say, about 3
10 kilometres away from town.
11 Q. And your reference to Zvornik, I understand, would be the town of
12 Zvornik; is that correct? So it fell between the town of Zvornik and
13 Bijeljina in Karakaj?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The barracks themselves, they comprised of two floors; is that
17 A. There's a ground floor and there is a floor upstairs, yes.
18 Q. And on the floor upstairs were the offices of Pandurevic,
19 Obrenovic, Drago Nikolic, and the operations duty room. Do I have that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Your office, you've told us, was on the ground floor. Where was
23 the infirmary?
24 A. On the ground floor.
25 Q. And am I right that you actually slept at the barracks in the
1 dormitory during that time-period?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you would have passed the infirmary on a daily basis to go to
4 the dormitory.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, do you recall during the time -- during that time-period,
7 and I know you're not very good with dates, but before 23 July between 10
8 to 15 wounded Muslim prisoners were brought to the infirmary at the
9 Standard Barracks at the Zvornik hospital. Now, they were under the care
10 of the chief of the medical centre of the Zvornik Brigade,
11 Dr. Zoran Begovic, and they were receiving treatment. Do you recall
12 these patients? One of them had an amputated lower leg.
13 A. I don't remember if somebody had an amputated leg, but I think
14 that I saw wounded Muslim prisoners as I passed by, by the infirmary.
15 It's a hall that I have to go through in order to go upstairs to sleep
17 As for this amputated leg, I really don't remember.
18 Q. Now, Dr. Zoran Begovic has testified before this Tribunal in the
19 Popovic case, and he said that these wounded prisoners were secured by
20 military policemen. You saw military policemen standing guard?
21 A. Well, I don't remember the details now. Possibly. Possibly. I
22 really do not remember who it was that guarded them.
23 Q. These prisoners you saw -- these wounded prisoners you saw them
24 being put on a truck, didn't you?
25 A. The truck was at the other entrance into the Standard Barracks
1 there was the main entrance where the entrance to the command was and
2 there was this other entrance and that's where they -- I've already
3 talked about this. Two trucks stopped and, I mean, well, they were put
4 onto the truck. Now whether it was these wounded persons, I've already
5 said, according to my estimate, and I can see that from my office when I
6 was sitting up there, perhaps it's about 50 metres away, I saw Muslim
7 prisoners being put onto the truck, and they were driven away somewhere.
8 I asked later on, but I was unofficially told that they were being taken
9 to Batkovic. But then I've already talked about this.
10 Q. Okay. These trucks, were there VRS soldiers around them?
11 A. Yes. I didn't know them. I don't think they were from the
12 Zvornik Brigade, I mean.
13 Q. Were they military policemen?
14 A. Right now, I cannot recall. They were people in uniform but
15 whether they were military policemen, I really cannot recall.
16 Q. Did you see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic from the Drina Corps?
17 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic? I don't know him. I think I've
18 never seen him. Maybe I did see him actually but I didn't know who it
19 was. So I really don't know who this man is. I heard of
20 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, I heard that he was in the corps. But,
21 personally I never saw him. I mean, I never met him. We were never
22 introduced. Maybe I came across him, but I did not know that it was
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.
24 Q. Now you say you heard of a Lieutenant Popovic. You didn't know
25 who Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, chief of the security of the Drina Corps,
1 was from your superior command?
2 A. Yes, I never met Popovic, I never sat with him, but I did hear
3 that Popovic is the chief of security of the Drina Corps. I state that
4 with certainty. But I don't know what the man looks like at all. That
5 is certainly correct.
6 Q. So in relation to what you just testified and specifically you
7 said that you didn't know -- couldn't remember whether -- now, whether it
8 was these wounded persons who were put on the truck. Let's see if can I
9 help you remember.
10 Now, you recall that you testified, as I've shown you before the
11 transcript of your testimony in Trbic case in 2007 before the State
13 MS. HASAN: If we can call that up again. It's 65 ter 32420.
14 Could we see page 23.
15 Q. And again, this is only in English, Mr. Jeremic, so I'll read it
16 slowly so that can you follow along.
17 MS. HASAN: Can we direct -- can we look down to line 23, please.
18 Q. Question was put to you: "Have you ever been informed, did you
19 ever find out when these Bosniak prisoners, the injured ones, left the
20 barracks? "
21 "A. Well, I wasn't informed as to when they were brought there
22 or when they were taken away, but actually I saw when - how to put it? -
23 I saw them boarding a truck that was at another entrance. They were
24 placed there, and rumours had it that they were taken to Batkovici for an
25 exchange. But I didn't see them leaving the compound, I didn't see them
1 whether they went to the left or to the right of the barracks.
2 "Q. When you saw them getting on the truck, were there any VRS
3 soldiers around?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. From which unit were they from?
6 "A. I believe that they were unknown soldiers, but I can't claim
7 that with certainty ..."
8 Do you stand by that testimony you gave to the State Court.
9 A. Yes. I didn't know which unit. I didn't know where they went,
10 and what I said, that they were taken to Batkovic, that is what people
11 were saying in the barracks. A soldier could have walked by and I said,
12 Where are these people going? And he said, To Batkovic. Somebody sort
13 of heard that they were going to Batkovic but I don't see why I would be
14 receiving information as to where Muslim prisoners were being taken. I
15 really don't know. I was just an ordinary soldier.
16 Q. There's evidence in this case that on the morning of the 23rd of
17 July, Vinko Pandurevic asked for a solution, that a solution be found for
18 the wounded prisoners because there was a problem with sending them back
19 to Zvornik hospital.
20 MS. HASAN: That's P2139, Your Honours.
21 Q. And he's told shortly after that that Popovic will arrive at 1700
22 hours to say what needs to be done regarding the "work" that was talked
24 And this, Your Honours, can be found in P2140, and the Zvornik
25 Brigade duty officer notebook for 23 July.
1 Now, there's evidence that around the 23rd of July, military
2 policemen took the wounded prisoners from the infirmary and they were
4 Now, surely these wounded prisoners, there was a lot of talk at
5 these barracks, surely you knew that these men were taken away to be
7 A. On the contrary, there was no talk, and I never heard about this.
8 This is the first time I'm hearing of this, from you. Not where they
9 were taken, not who took them. You've told me just now. It's the first
10 I hear of it.
11 Q. I'm going to move on now to the buses you spoke about yesterday
12 that you saw transporting male prisoners under the guard of members of
13 the VRS. This is at transcript page 34280, starting at line 3.
14 Can you describe what you were able to observe about the men on
15 those buses?
16 A. Well, I've already testified about that. I can repeat. I will
17 repeat that this Standard Barracks, the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade
18 buses passed by it and there were guards inside and --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I just want you to
20 specifically focus on the men that you saw inside the buses. Now, what
21 did you observe about them? How were they seated? What did you see?
22 A. The buses passed by quickly, and I could notice that men were
23 sitting in the seats and that they were looking into the ground and that
24 they held their hands above their heads and that in the buses there were
25 uniformed Serb soldiers who were standing there, and the bus was going
1 from Zvornik to Bijeljina, that is what I saw for sure and that is what I
2 already stated.
3 Q. And when you say their hands were above their heads, do you mean
4 to say that their hands were sort of raised up high or were they clasped
5 behind their necks?
6 A. Their hands were clasped behind their necks and their heads were
7 bend down, and uniformed Serb soldiers were standing next to them and
8 then the bus passed by, didn't stop in front of the barracks so I didn't
9 see who the soldiers were, and you couldn't really recognise anyone at
10 that moment, what unit they came from.
11 Q. I'm going to move on to the day that you were on guard duty at
12 the gate of the Standard Barracks.
13 There were no MPs at the barracks at that time; correct? Sorry,
14 is that your recollection?
15 A. Yes, they went out into the field, and I was told by the --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear who.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- stay at the gate. I don't know
18 where they went.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Who told you that, witness?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the company of the
21 military police, Lieutenant Jasikovac.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MS. HASAN:
24 Q. And it was precisely because there was nobody left at the
25 barracks that Commander Jasikovac assigned you to gate duty; isn't that
2 A. Commander Jasikovac, yes.
3 Q. You -- it wasn't part of your --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is that an answer to the question, I wonder? Did
5 Commander Jasikovac assigned you to gate duty because there was nobody
6 left at the barracks? Was that the situation?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all military policemen, how
8 do I put this? They got ready and went somewhere in the field and he
9 said to me, Jeremic, you're going to stay at the gate on guard duty and I
10 stayed at the gate.
11 JUDGE ORIE:
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Your colleagues, Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic, they weren't
14 assigned to the gate. They went to the field; isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. HASAN: Could we take a look at P1565. And, Your Honours,
17 and the Defence, I have the original here. I think the Defence has seen
18 this attendance roster of the military police before. We've shown it
19 on -- it was displayed on the screen yesterday, but I think for the
20 purposes of the next questions it would be beneficial to have the
21 original before you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist.
23 MS. HASAN: And on the screens could we see page 3, and I think
24 it suffices, since we're seen this before, to just have the original
25 B/C/S displayed.
1 Q. If you could look -- you see where your name is. You're listed
2 number 6. Number 5 is Goran Bogdanovic. Number 7 is Cedo Jovic.
3 And if you can just move your eyes along the columns and take a
4 look at the column numbered 14. So this is the 14th of July.
5 You see there's a plus sign for your name and there is what
6 appears to be on the face of the document a T, which is an indication of
7 in the field, for Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I see that.
9 Q. And if you look to the right and left of that, we see indication
10 that Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic are present at the barracks. So,
11 sir, the day you were standing guard at the gate when Cedo Jovic and
12 Goran Bogdanovic were in the field was the 14th of July; isn't that
14 A. Well, that is what is written here.
15 MS. HASAN: And, Your Honours, the reason I put that document in
16 front of you is to -- and I think -- I believe we have shown you this
17 before, is to look at some underlying markings beneath the markings of T
18 that are ... marked under the Ts for Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic. We
19 can even blow up the one that is on the screen. Just for the column
20 closer to the -- to the -- if we can blow up 13, 14, 15, 16 July, that
22 So it's somewhat visible there on the screen, and it should be
23 even better in the original.
24 Q. Sir, when your colleagues Bogdanovic and Jovic returned from the
25 field, what did they tell you about where they were?
1 A. They didn't tell me anything. Nobody really said much at the
3 Q. They told you that they were in Orahovac, didn't they?
4 A. No, they didn't.
5 MS. HASAN: Could we look at 65 ter 32395.
6 And, Your Honours, I'll just ask that you keep the original just
7 momentarily with you. 65 ter 32395.
8 Q. Sir, you remember testifying in the Popovic case, and you
9 testified in 2007 and then again in 2008 for the Defence. So first as a
10 Prosecution witness, and then as a Defence witness. You remember that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And you told the truth to that Trial Chamber, didn't you?
13 A. I believe so.
14 MS. HASAN: Could we have a look at e-court page 20.
15 Q. Lines 21 is where I'm going to begin reading, and I'm reading
16 this out to you because it's in English.
17 "Q. So when you testified a couple of moments ago that 'some of
18 them told me where they were in the field,' can you just tell the Trial
19 Chamber who told you and what did they tell you about where they were in
20 the field? Then I'll move on.
21 "A. Well, my work-mates, Bogdanovic and some others, told me
22 they were in Orahovac, in the field there. I know about them. I didn't
23 ask anyone else about anything of the sort."
24 Do you stand by that testimony you gave to the Popovic Trial
1 A. Well, if I said that then, then it's correct. It's correct
3 He possibly told me -- it was a long time ago. 20 years ago. I
4 really can't remember every single detail. It is possible. Very well.
5 Yes, okay. He told me. Let's stick to that.
6 Q. In fact, sir, not only did --
7 A. I apologise. But he did not tell me one or two days later. I
8 suppose he told me perhaps even seven days later. I really can't give
9 you any dates. Yes. I can't give you anything in terms of time
10 reference, whether it was three, five or seven days later or a month
11 later, but it was a long time ago. But, okay, I accept that he did tell
12 me that.
13 Q. And, in fact, you were told that the Muslim prisoners were being
14 shot at Orahovac. Isn't that the case?
15 A. But he -- that he did not shoot at them. That he threw his rifle
16 and that he refused to shoot at them. That's what he told me and I still
17 claim that to this very day.
18 Q. So you confirm that you were told that there were executions
19 taking place in Orahovac where your colleagues were present.
20 A. I wasn't there.
21 Q. That's not what I'm asking you.
22 A. I -- I know that you're not. And as to when he told me that, I
23 don't know. He -- he may have told me. I really can't remember.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question simply is whether he told you
25 that or not. That's the -- that's what --
1 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Hasan is asking you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I know but the question
4 was when he told me that. I can't tell you. I can't remember when he
5 told me maybe he told me three months thereafter or perhaps six months
6 later. I really don't know. Maybe he told me that once the war was
7 over. I can't remember when he said that. And this is my answer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the question doesn't ask you when you were
9 being told, sir. You were just asked whether you were told.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, in fact, he told you, as you just testified a
12 few minutes ago, that he refused to shoot at these people, he threw his
13 gun away; is that correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what he told me.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. You had also heard from Zvornik Brigade soldiers in the days
19 after you saw the buses pass by the Standard Barracks carrying,
20 transporting Muslim men, that executions were also taking place in
21 Pilica; isn't that right?
22 A. I said that? I don't understand your question. Are you saying
23 that I said that? Did I state that? Or are you putting a question to
25 Q. Well, I'll -- I'm first putting the question to you, which is
1 that you had heard from soldiers that executions were taking place in
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was "heard from Zvornik Brigade
5 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, not much was said
7 about that. People kept quiet about that. Not much was said at all.
8 Whether I heard something or not - and if I did, when I heard what I
9 did - I really don't know how to answer your question. Indeed, I don't
11 Q. Let me see if I can help a little bit.
12 A. Go on. Give it your best shot.
13 MS. HASAN: 65 ter 32393, please, e-court page 12.
14 Q. Again, this is your testimony in the Popovic case. See, I'm
15 going to read, starting at line 6.
16 Sorry, if we can just scroll up, I'll read the question so that's
18 "Q. At some time after this day when you saw those buses, did
19 you begin to hear rumours at the brigade? And if so, can you tell the
20 Trial Chamber what those rumours were that you heard?
21 "A. After that, I don't know exactly how many days later, I
22 can't give you a date as to when, but I heard that there were executions
23 of Muslims in Orahovac and Pilica. Those were the rumours that were
24 going round in the brigades or, rather, at Standard I heard this from the
25 soldiers. No one said anything officially, but many of them were talking
1 about it."
2 Do you stand by that testimony you gave?
3 A. Yes, I stand by what I said then. I suppose that there were
4 rumours. But I don't know when. Yes, there were rumours. Probably
5 there were.
6 Q. Were you or - to your knowledge - anyone in your unit instructed
7 to conduct any investigations into these executions that took place at
8 Orahovac and Pilica?
9 A. Nobody ever asked for that officially. I don't know anything
10 about that.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. And, sir, just to clarify, you say "not officially."
14 Were you unofficially asked to conduct any investigations?
15 A. Nobody ever requested that. None of the officers ever told me
16 about that. Whatever I'm telling you is based on hearsay, on what the
17 soldiers were talking about, what I heard on the street, what rumours I
18 heard. Nobody ever shared that information with me in any way.
19 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Only to
20 say that it's the Prosecution's position that the document that is before
21 you, the attendance roster, under the T markings for Goran Bogdanovic and
22 Cedo Jovic, are the letters O, and there's testimony on that as well in
23 this case.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you remind us what the letter O stands for
25 on the legend.
1 MS. HASAN: Orahovac, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is that in the legend or is that your
4 interpretation? Because we see TO as in the terrain, but not Orahovac.
5 The O then stands for a different location.
6 MS. HASAN: It is in the legend, Your Honour. We can turn to it,
7 P1565, and -- yes. In fact, it's -- this document is a document that
8 we've raised before, and that there were certain erasures made to it.
9 One of the erasures made was for the defined term -- for the definition
10 of the term O, and if you look at the last --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it.
12 MS. HASAN: -- few pages. And it is probably, in fact, more
13 visible in the original before you but we'll have to zoom in, I don't
14 know how good this scan is, it's difficult for me to see on the scan. I
15 can definitely see it on the original, Your Honours. We do also have an
16 expert report that was of an examination of this document which is not in
17 evidence in this case. But it's --
18 JUDGE ORIE: But we are looking at this moment at the legend in
19 English which seems not to correspond with the legend in B/C/S or am I
20 wrong? SL or C means off and then this is the one which corresponds with
21 what we... yes. And there it says TO stands for in the field and osnaci.
22 MS. HASAN: And I believe it's -- if you look at the original, it
23 should be ... I can't properly see it on this scan.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently we have two different pages with legenda
25 because we looked at -- that we look at another one before? Yes. At
1 least in English translation of.
2 MS. HASAN: Yeah. But the erasure that I'm referring to, it
3 should be, if you look at the original, where the T is. It is Teren and
4 I'm not sure it's helpful to look at the screen --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's say the following. I have a -- although
6 a bit of it, a vague recollection that we looked at it in quite some
7 detail in the past. Let's re-read that rather than to now, where there's
8 no need to do it with the witness, to try to reconstruct any matters
9 which we should take more time for.
10 MS. HASAN: And I will provide those references for you,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we leave this page here, Madam Hasan, I
14 don't see any symbol that stands as an O alone on this legend.
15 MS. HASAN: That's correct. Because it's our position that the
16 legend included an O with a definition Orahovac, which was erased over
17 which T and Teren was replaced.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And in the entries was [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 MS. HASAN: I think that is explained in the testimony which I
20 will --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Orahovac was deleted from the legend.
22 MS. HASAN: Absolutely.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's the Prosecution's position, let's be clear
24 about that. We don't have to verify it with the witness now.
25 MS. HASAN: And Your Honour, it is visible. The erasure is
1 visible in the original.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not the pages you have provided to us at this
3 moment, but we received four -- or perhaps it's at the back.
4 Unfortunately, I have forgotten my glasses today, but Judge Moloto.
5 MS. HASAN: I'd be much worse without my glasses, Your Honour.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Somebody attend to Mr. --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's very helpful of you, Mr. Mladic. I have -- I
9 have an opportunity to later look at it again with my glasses and I don't
10 know whether your glasses and my glasses present the same picture. That
11 is still to be seen. Well, nothing is translated, but I take it that
12 this is a friendly gesture which is addressed to me. No need to
13 communicate that with the public gallery.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll return it to you. I think that you're
16 referring to, where there seems to be an empty line in the legenda that
17 there was something there before. That's how we have to understand it,
18 if we would follow your view.
19 MS. HASAN: Yes. It should be around exactly where you've
20 pointed out, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, between "teren" and "teren Zepa."
22 No further questions? Or do you have any --
23 MS. HASAN: No, Your Honour. That would be all. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would just give me one second, please.
25 I'm just re-reading a portion of the evidence which may cause me
1 to ask questions, but I'm not certain about it yet.
2 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Honour.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jeremic, do you remember the date when you
6 were actually on duty at the gate? Do you remember that date at all?
7 A. Well, I can see that it was on the 13th or the 14th of July,
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very clear. Is that your recollection or
10 is that what you conclude on the basis of the documents that have been
11 put before you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm basing that on the documents
13 that have been put before me. When all the MPs went on a field mission,
14 I knew that it was sometime around the 11th or the 12 or the 13th but I
15 wasn't sure. Now I can see that that was the day or the time when I was
16 on the gate duty.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And let me finish with the following question. Today when you've
19 just seen this document, do you still stand by the claim that was 24
20 hours before the passage of the buses and lorries about which you were
22 A. Yes, I stand by that statement. That was 24 hours prior to the
23 time when I saw that the buses were passing by the Standard Barracks.
24 Q. Mr. Jeremic, thank you on behalf of the Mladic Defence. I have
25 no further questions for you.
1 A. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 Any further questions, Ms. Hasan?
4 MS. HASAN: No, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremic, this concludes your testimony in this
6 Court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. It's
7 quite a journey. And I wanted to thank you for having answered all the
8 questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by
9 the Judges. I wish you a safe return home again.
10 You may now follow the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did my best to answer all the
12 questions. Thank you for the good wishes. And I wish you a pleasant
13 day, and I bid you all farewell.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: This was the last witness for this week,
16 Mr. Stojanovic?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a few matters still on my agenda. We
19 could do two things. We can deal -- try to deal with them before we
20 adjourn or take a break now and deal with them after a break and adjourn
21 after I've dealt with them.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, wish -- we suggest
24 that we should continue and adjourn before the break.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'll deal with a few procedural matters but give me
1 just one second.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: There is -- the first item concerns D918.
4 On the 26th of February of this year, D918 was marked for
5 identification pending a translation.
6 Is the Defence in a position to give an update on the
7 translation? It's about Goran Krcmar.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, our colleague
9 Lukic did that. We will check, and we will inform you within the
10 shortest possible time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Preferably not later than the 15th of
12 April and, of course, that cannot be done then in court but perhaps an
13 update through e-mail would already serve the purpose.
14 The second one is also dealing with the remaining issue from the
15 testimony of Goran Krcmar and is about P7172 which was marked for
16 identification on the 3rd of March, 2015 pending a translation.
17 On 17th of March the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the
18 Defence, advising that the translation has been uploaded into e-court
19 under doc ID ZA-01-7670-BCST. And the Chamber wonders whether the
20 Defence has any objections. Another way of dealing with it is that we
21 would admit and that the Defence has an opportunity to revisit the
22 matter. And perhaps we should give in view of the present circumstances
23 a bit more time than usual.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be fair. Thank you
25 very much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P7172 is admitted into evidence and you have one
2 week to revisit the matter.
3 Then there's another remaining issue from the testimony of
4 Milos Solaja, P7 ...
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent I have been unclear in relation to
7 that, the uploaded translation which I just mentioned for P7172 can be
8 attached and the Registrar is instructed to do so, to MFI P7172.
9 Then I move onto P7196, remaining issue from the testimony of
10 Milos Solaja.
11 On the 9th of March, P7196, which is a transcript from the
12 22nd Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly, dated 23rd and 24th of
13 November, 1992, was marked for identification pending an agreement
14 between the parties as to which excerpt of the transcript should be
15 tendered. This is to be found at transcript pages 32795 through -96.
16 On the 7th of April, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via an
17 e-mail that it uploaded into e-court under 65 ter number 02362a, the
18 introduction and the portion of the transcript that was used with the
20 Is there any objection from the Defence to the admission of this
21 document as -- in its present format?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to my
23 information, we have no objection. But, again I would suggest that you
24 give us this time but do admit it like the previous document. I'm saying
25 this out of caution.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Registry is hereby instructed to attach
2 65 ter 02362a to P7196. P7196 is admitted into evidence and the Defence
3 has an opportunity within one week to revisit the matter in terms of
5 The following item deals with P6996 and is a remaining issue from
6 the testimony of Vojo Kupresanin.
7 On the 11th of December of last year, P6996, which is an
8 intercepted telephone conversation between Jovo Tintor and Mirko Jovic,
9 was marked for identification pending the formation by the Defence of its
10 objection. I refer to transcript pages 29692 to -694. On the 26th of
11 March, the Chamber set a deadline of the 30th of March for the Defence to
12 make submissions. On the 30th of March, Mr. Ivetic e-mailed the Chamber
13 advising that: "Mr. Lukic will be in a better position to provide an
14 explanation of that objection tomorrow, in so far as he is the attorney
15 that dealt with the witness and made the objection in question."
16 However, as of today, Mr. Lukic has not made any submissions.
17 The question therefore arises whether the objection to P6996 can be
18 articulated now or not. I think that we'll follow the same road as we
19 did before, that is, where Mr. Lukic has not articulated the objection
20 any further, that P6996 is admitted into evidence but if Mr. Lukic wants
21 to revisit the matter, he has an opportunity to do so, and since we're
22 not in Court next week, he should do it in writing. He can do so within
23 one week from now.
24 I move on to my next item which is a remaining issue from, again,
25 the testimony of Goran Krcmar. It's D920.
1 On the 2nd of March of this year, D920 was marked for
2 identification pending a translation. On the 10th of March, the Defence
3 advised the Chamber via an e-mail that the translation had been uploaded
4 into e-court under doc ID 1D19-1412.
5 On the 30th of March, the Prosecution indicated that it had no
6 objection to the translation per se but it was unable to identify the
7 point during Witness Krcmar's testimony when D920 was actually discussed.
8 This can be found at transcript page 33849.
9 The Prosecution made further submissions in this regard on the
10 31st of March which can be found at transcript pages 33891 through -92.
11 In summary, the Prosecution had doubts that the document was used
12 during the course of Witness Krcmar's testimony.
13 And the question of the Chamber is whether the Defence has had an
14 opportunity to verify the transcripts in this respect?
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that was again Mr. Lukic, but my
17 recollection was that he and Mr. Traldi had spoken and had agreed that
18 one particular document had not been previously used, if this is the one
19 that is at issue. But either Mr. Traldi or Mr. Lukic would be the ones
20 to give more detailed information. I was only a by-stander to their
21 conversation about this in the courtroom the other week.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, could the parties inform the Chamber not
23 later than by next week. Meanwhile, the Registry is instructed to attach
24 doc ID 1D19-1412 to D920 but no decision on admission is yet there.
25 Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Traldi, who was apparently following the
2 proceedings remotely, confirms that Mr. Ivetic's recollection is correct
3 and so the discussion that Mr. Ivetic was just referring to between
4 Mr. Lukic and Mr. Traldi referred to the document the Court was
5 addressing a moment ago.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the issue apparently being whether or not the
7 document was actually discussed during the testimony, I leave it to
8 the --
9 MR. TIEGER: That's what the discussion -- between Mr. Lukic and
10 Mr. Traldi was about and Mr. Lukic acknowledged that he had not used the
11 document. And, therefore, it presumable would be withdrawn as an
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- the last line you spoke is the matter I
14 would speak clarification by the Defence, whether they withdraw tendering
15 it, or whether they think that it should be admitted by other means than
16 through this witness. That's the question I left open.
17 And we'd like to hear from the Defence also within the next week
18 what their plans are in relation to D920.
19 Then I have one final matter. On the 7th of April, the Defence
20 has e-mailed the Chamber requesting leave to add 65 ter 1D05382 to the
21 65 ter exhibit list for Witness Nebojsa Jeremic. My agenda reads whether
22 the Prosecution has any objections. But since apparently this document
23 was not introduced through this witnesses, and, therefore, the point in
24 time where we usually deal with additions to the 65 ter list, that is, if
25 it comes to the tendering of it, it seems that the matter is moot
1 because, unless for other reasons you would still like to have it on the
2 65 ter exhibit list, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not a clear answer to my question. Is
5 the matter moot? Or would you, for other reasons, still want to have it
6 on your 65 ter exhibit list?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No need to keep it on the 65 ter
8 list, so it can be deleted.
9 JUDGE ORIE: This request is declared moot.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may refer back to D920, if this will help the
11 parties, what was admitted as D920 but marked for identification was
12 65 er 1D5367. If that helps.
13 MR. IVETIC: I'm sure it helps someone on our team; unfortunately
14 not the personnel that are here today.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the parties could verify whether, because my
17 colleague Judge Moloto has made an annotation with that number during the
18 hearing so it must have been referred to in one way or another. But
19 whether it was tendered or used specifically or with the witness, can you
20 please verify that so the Chamber will finally have full information how
21 to deal with the matter.
22 MR. IVETIC: We will, Your Honour. We will make sure that
23 Mr. Lukic, when he does respond, has the full history of that in the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
1 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, there is one more matter, if
2 Your Honours don't have anything further.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have anything further, no.
4 MR. IVETIC: In today's temporary transcript, page 44, line 20,
5 it says 13th or 13th July which is either maybe a mistranslation or a
6 typographical error.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, special attention will be paid to that when the
8 transcript, as is usually done, will be revised overnight.
9 Nothing from the Prosecution at this moment.
10 We'll not sit next week, which means that we resume on the
11 20th of April. The reason for not sitting is Orthodox Easter. All those
12 who are celebrating Orthodox Easter, the Chamber wishes them good days,
13 and we'll resume on the 20th of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
14 courtroom, I.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.15 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of April,
17 2015, at 9.30 a.m.