Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34360

 1                           Monday, 20 April 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution had a preliminary

12     matter to be raised.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours and good morning.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Just a small matters and it relates to the testimony

16     of Branko Basara, and a document that we intend to use with Mr. Basara.

17     On Friday, the Prosecution sent an e-mail regarding a revised translation

18     of a document that will be used with Basara.  The document in question is

19     P2365 and the Prosecution advised that it had uploaded a revised draft of

20     that -- a revised translation of that document and the doc ID 00478672-ET

21     and the Prosecution requests that the Court Officer be instructed to

22     replace the existing translation with the revised translation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the Defence looked at the new translation?  Is

24     it just minor details or is it more.  I mean, does it have any affect on

25     previous witness through which the document was introduced.

Page 34361

 1             MR. JEREMY:  It doesn't have an affect on the previous witness so

 2     far as I understand it.  There are some changes to the translation to the

 3     previous draft translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that.  But of minor importance but

 5     precision.

 6             Has the Defence had a look at the document?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I just saw it printed on

 8     the table.  I didn't even pick it up.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I suggest that we instruct the Registrar to

10     replace the present English translation by the new one and that you have

11     a possibility to revisit the matter, well, let's say within the next --

12     when is the witness scheduled to testify?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Today.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Today, yes.  Then have a look at it as quickly as

15     possible and if the -- have the changes been notified?  Does the Defence

16     know where the changes are in the translation?

17             MR. JEREMY:  I can certainly sit with Mr. Lukic in the next break

18     and draw his attention to it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That would be good so you can work more focussed on

20     it.

21             Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the

22     existing English translation of P2365 by the new one, which has doc ID

23     00478672-ET.

24             Before we continue, I'd like to briefly move into private

25     session.

Page 34362

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Could we

Page 34364

 1     please call Witness Andja Obradovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the videolink room.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the representative of the Registry at the

 5     other side of the videolink inform the Chamber about the presence of --

 6     who is present in the videolink room apart from you and the witness as we

 7     can see on our screen.

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.  Apart from the

 9     two of us, we have the IT representative from the Registry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Good morning, Ms. Obradovic.  Before you give evidence in this

12     court, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration of which the

13     text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

14     declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  ANDJA OBRADOVIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           [Witness testified via videolink]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Witness.  Please be seated.

21             Witness, before we start, has the Defence explained the procedure

22     we'll follow today, that is, that you'll be invited to attest to a

23     statement you have earlier given?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before court you mean?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So are you aware, because most likely we'll

Page 34365

 1     not hear any substance of your evidence but your evidence is in a written

 2     statement and that you appear mainly to attest to the accuracy and the

 3     truthfulness of that statement.

 4             Is that clear, this procedure we'll follow?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Stojanovic, who is counsel for Mr. Mladic,

 7     will now put a few questions to you.  Carefully listen and please answer

 8     the questions.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic.

10                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation]Once again, good morning.

12             Good morning, madam.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   I kindly ask you to speak slowly and give us your exact name and

15     surname.

16        A.   Andja Obradovic, born on the 10th of June, 1956.  1956.

17     Titovnica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Madam, did you give a statement to the Defence of

19     General Mladic or specifically to me as one of his Defence attorneys?

20     Did you give a statement in writing?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, without having

23     this broadcast, could we please take a look at the mentioned statement,

24     namely the first page of that statement.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you give Madam Registrar a number, then she'll be

Page 34366

 1     able to have it on the screen.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I can assist you, Mr. Stojanovic, it seems to

 4     be 1D1661.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  1D1661.

 6        Q.   I hope, Madam, that now you see the statement before you, and

 7     this is what I'm asking you:  Can you recognise the signature on this

 8     first page of the statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is that your signature?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to ask that we look at the last

13     page of this document, which is 65 ter 1D1661.

14             Madam, the signature that you see on this page, is that your

15     signature?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the date that is written there, the 7th of August, 2014, is

18     that also written in your own hand?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  This is what I'd like to ask you:  Today, now that

21     you've taken this oath before this Court stating that you will tell the

22     truth, would you fully stand by what was written in this statement of

23     yours?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And would this statement represent your entire knowledge and

Page 34367

 1     experience concerning the events that you testified about?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Madam.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

 5     would like to read a brief summary of this witness's statement, and I

 6     would kindly ask that this be done in private session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the purpose of reading a summary is

 8     to inform the public.  So, therefore, if the statement will be

 9     confidential, then it may make no much sense to -- to give the summary

10     because the Judges have read the statement.

11             And I take it you want to tender --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  Then

13     out of an abundance of caution for the reasons that we already mentioned

14     we would not read this summary, but this is a good opportunity for me to

15     tender this witness's statement into evidence in this case under seal.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on that --

17             Witness, did you have an opportunity to review your statement

18     recently?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's on that basis that you attested to the

21     accuracy and the truthfulness of your statement?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             MR. CORLISS:  No objections, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

Page 34368

 1             Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1661 receives number D1029.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence, under seal.

 4             Witness, your appearance in court was very short.  That doesn't

 5     mean that your testimony is not important but we have read your statement

 6     and that's what we'll consider.  Therefore, even though being short --

 7     being in court only for a very short period of time, I would like to

 8     thank you very much for appearing, and ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Prosecution earlier has indicated that there are

11     no questions for this witness.  That's the reason why no further

12     questions will be put to you.  I would, nevertheless, thank you very much

13     for coming to the videolink location, for having attested to your

14     statement which is now in evidence.  I wish you a safe return home again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the witness can be escorted out of

17     the videolink room.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  For the next witness which was scheduled we do

21     understand that he is unable to appear today.

22             MR. LUKIC:  That's right, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, my next question is:  Would the witness

24     scheduled after that witness, is the Defence ready to call that witness?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we are calling

Page 34369

 1     Mr. Vasiljevic, Borislav.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Who would also testified by videolink

 3     and for whom the Prosecution has also indicated there are no further

 4     questions apart from attestation that there is no need to cross-examine

 5     that witness.

 6             MR. CORLISS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             I see that the witness, the next witness has appeared in the

 9     videolink room.

10             Good morning, Mr. Vasiljevic.  Could you please stand.  Before

11     you give evidence the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration

12     that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth

13     and from the fact that you are standing, I take it that can you hear

14     me -- you can see me and hear me in a language you understand?

15             I heard a soft "da," perhaps too soft for our interpreters.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The solemn declaration -- the text of the solemn

18     declaration will now be handed out to you, and I'd like to invite you to

19     make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  BORISLAV VASILJEVIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           [Witness testified via videolink]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic.  Please be seated.

Page 34370

 1             Mr. Vasiljevic, has the procedure which we'll follow today, been

 2     explained to you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that only questions will be put for the

 5     purpose of an attestation of the statement you've given earlier and that

 6     you'll not be cross-examined on it.

 7             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your examination-in-chief,

 8     which will be very short, as I understand.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             Mr. Vasiljevic, you'll now be examined by Mr. Lukic.  He'll put a

12     few questions to you.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

13                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Vasiljevic.

15        A.   Good day.

16        Q.   For the record, could you please slowly state your name and

17     surname.

18        A.   Borislav Vasiljevic.

19        Q.   On the screen now could we please have 1D01740.

20             Mr. Vasiljevic, do you see this on the screen or do you have a

21     hard copy of your statement before you, on paper?

22        A.   I have a statement before me.

23        Q.   So have you opened the first page?  I mean, the very first page.

24     And do you see a signature on it?

25        A.   I do.

Page 34371

 1        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

 2        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

 3        Q.   Whose is it?

 4        A.   Mine, mine.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now could you please be so kind as to take a look at

 6     the last page of your statement.

 7             Can you see a signature on this document and do you recognise it?

 8        A.   I do recognise it.  It is mine.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The statement before you, did you provide it to the

10     members of the Defence team of General Mladic?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Does the statement accurately reflect what you told the Defence

13     team members on behalf of General Mladic?

14        A.   Yes, it is accurate.

15        Q.   The contents of the statement, have they been recorded to the

16     best of your recollection and accuracy?

17        A.   Yes, it is 100 per cent accurate.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

19     would you provide the same answers?

20        A.   100 per cent.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic.

22             At this point in time, we seek to tender Mr. Vasiljevic's

23     statement into evidence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that, can we just confirm that

25     the date mentioned in paragraph 6 is correct on the statement.

Page 34372

 1             MR. LUKIC:  6.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Says he returned to his parents' place on 13th of

 3     July, 2013.  The same statement --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm, mm-hm.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vasiljevic, can we go to paragraph 6 of your

 6     statement, please.

 7        A.   It is in front of me.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 6, we find the following.  The reason for my return

 9     to Vasiljevici village was to make my wife and my child, who was less

10     than two years old, to Slovenia since the war in BiH had already started.

11             The next sentence is:  "I returned to my parents' place on the

12     13th of July, 2013 and as early as the next day, the village was attacked

13     by the Muslim forces from Vecici.  The attack started at dawn."

14             I apologise to you as well as to the Chamber.  This detail seems

15     to have slipped my attention.  Kindly tell us whether the date as

16     recorded is accurate, especially in terms of the year.  What should be

17     the year?

18        A.   1992.  That is when I returned from Slovenia.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic.  And thank you,

20     Judge Moloto.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that it's only the year that is wrong

22     but that the date, the 13th of July, is accurate?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I don't recall the date

Page 34373

 1     exactly.  I can't be 100 per cent sure, but I think it is the correct

 2     date and the year was definitely 1992.  It was a long time ago and I

 3     don't recall the precise date, but I do think it is the 13th of July,

 4     1992.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No objections to the admission.

 6             MR. CORLISS:  No objections with that corrected date,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1740 receives number D1030.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I will, at this moment just read the short --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness does not necessarily have to remain

14     in the videolink room for that purposes.

15             So if the witness would prefer to leave already he is free to do

16     so.

17             Mr. Vasiljevic, a short summary of your evidence will be read.

18     Do you want to remain in the videolink room or would you already prefer

19     to be excused?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would prefer to stay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then Mr. Lukic will now read a short summary

22     of your statement.  Please be aware that it's not the summary that is in

23     evidence but it's your statement.  It is just to inform the public about

24     the content of your statement.  So there's no need to make any

25     corrections or to add anything to what Mr. Lukic will now read.

Page 34374

 1             Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Borislav Vasiljevic testifies about the events in the

 4     municipality of Kotor Varos in early 1992.

 5             When he heard that an armed incident happened in Kotor Varos on

 6     11th June 1992, he returned home from Slovenia where he was temporarily

 7     employed.  He returned with the aim of taking care of his family.  He was

 8     not mobilised and had a civilian status.

 9             He states that in late June 1992, the Muslim forces from Vecici

10     village attacked village Staza and hamlet Vasilijevici.

11     Jugoslav Mirjanic was killed in the attack and several villagers were

12     wounded.

13             His village was attacked again on 13 July 1992.  He and his

14     father were captured and taken to Vecici where they were tortured.

15             During his captivity in Vecici, he talks in detail about the

16     torture.  He indicates names of the people who inflicted torture.  He

17     also tells names of the people who were captured, brought in, taken away,

18     tortured and killed.

19             Mr. Vasiljevic talks about the historical context of the

20     suffering of the Serbs in Kotor Varos and their fear that the crimes from

21     the Second World War might repeat.

22             That was the short summary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24             Mr. Vasiljevic, no further questions will be put to you.  That

25     doesn't mean that your testimony is not important for us but we received

Page 34375

 1     it in writing and we'll consider it with all the other evidence this

 2     Chamber receives.

 3             I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the videolink

 4     location, and I wish you a --

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, we have some

 6     difficulty with the audio.  We are unable to hear you from The Hague.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether it can be resolved quickly or

 8     whether it would take more time.

 9             Could I ask the representative of the Registry at the other side

10     of the videolink whether he can hear me in the English language?

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, I can hear you now,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, would you please pass on to the

14     witness our thanks for having come to the videolink location and convey

15     to him that we wish him a safe return home again.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I

17     will do that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know what language you will do that,

19     but that's -- is there any way you can pass on that message?

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if at least the video is functioning

23     again.  I'm not certain about the audio.

24             Could the representative of the Registry tell us whether the

25     audio in both languages on the other side of the videolink is functioning

Page 34376

 1     well?

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, English channel

 3     is functioning fine.  The B/C/S channel is just being checked and I'm

 4     told it's okay now.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we can continue.

 6             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  We are calling

 8     Mr. Branko Basara.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the videolink

10     room.

11             Mr. Jeremy.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, just while the witness is being

13     escorted in, just to draw to the Chamber's attention the fact that there

14     is an indictment has been issued by the Bosnian State Court against this

15     witness in 2014 and that indictment implicates a number of scheduled

16     incidents in the indictment before this Chamber and therefore the

17     Prosecution considers it appropriate to advise the witness of his rights

18     under Rule 90(E).

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the incident in the indictment against the

20     accused in this case?

21             MR. JEREMY:  That's correct, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             Good morning, Witness.  Can you hear me in a language you

25     understand?

Page 34377

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I can.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before you give evidence, the Rules require

 3     that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out

 4     to you.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please -- may I invite you to make that,

 7     to read the text and pronounce the words?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  BRANKO BASARA

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           [Witness testified via videolink]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Basara.  Please be seated.

14             Mr. Basara, before I invite the Defence to examine you I'd like

15     to inform you about the content of Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure

16     and Evidence of this Tribunal, and I'll read it to you.

17             It reads:

18             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

19     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

20     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

21     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

22     offence other than false testimony."

23             Mr. Basara, this means that you can address me if you think that

24     a truthful answer to one of the questions might incriminate yourself.  Is

25     that clear?

Page 34378

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Basara, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is

 4     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 5             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Basara.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   Please be so kind to tell us your first and last name for the

11     record.

12        A.   My name is Branko Basara.  I was born on the 3rd of October, 1939

13     in the village of Otis in Sanski Most.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Basara, did you at some point provide a statement

15     to the members of General Mladic's Defence team?

16        A.   I did provide a statement.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D1720 on our screens.

18        Q.   You do have the written statement in front of you, Mr. Basara, do

19     you not?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Is the front -- the cover page of the statement in front of you?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Do you see a signature there and do you recognise it?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Whose signature is it?

Page 34379

 1        A.   Mine.

 2        Q.   Let us go to the last page of the statement.

 3        A.   Very well.

 4        Q.   Do you see a signature there and do you recognise it?

 5        A.   I do see it.  It is mine.

 6        Q.   The contents of the statement, have they been recorded accurately

 7     in terms of what you told the members of General Mladic's Defence team?

 8        A.   Yes, it was recorded correctly.

 9        Q.   Are the contents truthful to the best of your recollection in

10     terms of those past events?

11        A.   In terms of the contents I stated, it is all truthful in the

12     sense of how I saw and experienced those events.

13        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

14     answer the same way?

15        A.   I think I would answer them in the same way.  Perhaps not word

16     for word, but that would be the gist.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we seek to tender

19     Mr. Basara's statement into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1720 receives number D1031.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I think the number is too big.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  The document receives number D1031.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D1031 is admitted into evidence.

Page 34380

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Basara, with the Court's permission, I'd like to put some

 3     additional questions to you.

 4             First of all, --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, there's no problem in putting additional

 6     questions to the witness but the usual practice is to read the summary

 7     first.

 8             MR. LUKIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Basara, I apologise.  I skipped ahead a

10     little too much.  I was first supposed to read out the summary of your

11     statement.

12             I distributed to everybody but I cannot find my copy.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd like to do it after the break, there's no

14     problem, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I would appreciate.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That gives you time to retrieve it.

17             Please proceed, meanwhile.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Then can I proceed with the questions first?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I meant.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Basara, did you testify previously before

22     this Tribunal?

23        A.   I did testify - also via videolink - as a Prosecution witness

24     concerning two people from the security service.

25        Q.   That was in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case?

Page 34381

 1        A.   Yes, Stanisic/Zupljanin.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Kindly go to paragraphs 9 and 10 in your statement.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And if we can have them -- paragraph 9 on our screen,

 4     please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You mentioned the ethnic makeup in the municipality.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need the next page in both

 9     versions.

10        Q.   The top of the page which is the last part of paragraph 9 where

11     you discuss the division of the town.  And about which part was to go to

12     which part of the population.

13             In paragraph 10, you discuss the police and the division therein.

14     Did you play any part in those negotiations about the division or not?

15        A.   I was present at a meeting which took place in the municipal

16     assembly building.  Not all members were present, but there were people

17     on the Serb and the Muslim side.  They were the more influential members

18     of the assembly who discussed how to divide the town.  I was present but

19     was not involved in any decision-making.  I was neutral in those talks of

20     theirs.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you seek clarification as to

23     members of what?  It says:  "Not all members were present."

24             Members of what?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 34382

 1        Q.   Mr. Basara, you heard Judge Orie's question.

 2        A.   I heard the question.

 3        Q.   Can you answer?

 4        A.   I had in mind all members of the assembly.  So the inner part of

 5     the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly was present with representatives of

 6     Muslims, Serbs and Croats being in attendance.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether any agreement was reached on the

 8     division of other towns in the municipality?

 9        A.   I know something about Bihac.  I know that a division was agreed

10     upon there as well.  The right bank of the town was to be Serbian; and

11     the left bank of the town was to be Muslim.  However, the Muslims managed

12     to take over the part that was supposed to go to the Serbs, and the Serbs

13     were, for the most part, pushed out of Bihac.

14             I also know something about Krupa, Bosanska Krupa.  There was

15     also an agreement there that the part of town on the right bank of the

16     town be Serbian; the left bank, Muslim.  However, the Muslims there

17     fooled the Serbs as well, taking part the side of town that was supposed

18     to go to the Serbs as well.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... reading that

20     summary statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you found it, it's -- it's approximately time for

22     the break.  So perhaps you start with the summary after the break.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.

25     After the break, Mr. Lukic will first read that short summary of your

Page 34383

 1     statement and then he'll continue and ask further questions, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I have further questions for this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll take the break first and we'll

 4     resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd first like to check whether the videolink is

 8     still operative.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear and

10     see you clearly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             I will proceed with reading statement summary of Mr. Basara.  It

14     will be a bit longer than usually.

15             Branko Basara was the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade in

16     1992.  He was a retired JNA colonel until he reactivated in October 1991

17     to take command of the 6th Krajina Brigade.

18             Mr. Basara always endeavoured to prevent conflicts.  Through

19     talks with Muslims, Croats and Serbs and their representatives from the

20     Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most, I tried to defuse the heated situation

21     and some conciliatory decisions were made in this direction.  Agreement

22     was reached to divide Sanski Most into a Muslim and a Serb part.

23             The Muslim representatives took possession of the municipal

24     building in Sanski Most and after the Serb leadership decided to

25     recapture the municipal building.  And after that the Serb leadership

Page 34384

 1     decided to recapture the municipal building.  Mr. Basara and his brigade

 2     is not take part in the capturing of the municipal building.  Mr. Basara

 3     used to go to the Muslim villages with Nijaz Halilovic, a Muslim,

 4     convincing the inhabitants not to cause conflicts with their Serb

 5     neighbours or members of the 6th Brigade.

 6             After the withdrawal of the JNA from the Republic of Croatia, JNA

 7     was tasked with preventing interethnic conflicts.  His unit implemented

 8     the task successfully until the attack of the Muslim forces on the JNA in

 9     Sarajevo, at Dobrovoljacka Street.  After the attack at

10     Dobrovoljacka Street, an order arrived to disarm the Muslim paramilitary

11     formations.

12             In the course of weapons confiscation his unit did not arrest

13     those who possessed it but only took their weapons.

14             The disarming was conducted in two stages.  The first stage

15     involved informing the Muslims and Croats in all the villages that they

16     should voluntarily turn in all the weapons in their possession.  In the

17     second stage, the units were to go to the villages inhabited by Muslims

18     and Croats and seize the weapons from those who had not turned them in.

19             Armed fightings would occur where the Muslim forces offered armed

20     resistance.

21             Before fighting, an announcement was made that all those who did

22     not want to fight should leave.  For example, all of those who wished to

23     exit Mahala were given a three-hour deadline to pull out.  A lot of

24     women, children and the elderly pulled out from Mahala, and even some of

25     the able-bodied men.  These people were protected by the army.

Page 34385

 1             According to Mr. Basara's own assessment of the situation, he

 2     decided to engage parts of the 6th Brigade in order to ensure a peaceful

 3     take-over of power in the municipality of Kljuc without conflicts and

 4     unnecessary bloodshed.

 5             Furthermore, he will testify on the nature and role of

 6     Sanski Most Crisis Staff and that he was not a member of the municipal

 7     Crisis Staff.

 8             He will further testify about the existence of paramilitaries and

 9     their relationship with the authorities and the VRS.

10             Mr. Basara will testify that the army had nothing to do with

11     prisons in Sanski Most, i.e., that he had no jurisdiction over those

12     prisons and that the army did not establish prisons.

13             Army did not play any part in the departures of the population.

14             Mr. Basara will testify that there were a number of employed

15     Muslims in the territory of Sanski Most who went to work regularly.  He

16     knows that there were Muslims working at the Kamengrad coal-mine.  He

17     knows this because the army was providing security for the coal-mine.

18             And that was the short summary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Basara, now I would like to continue with my

22     questions, if you're ready.

23        A.   I am.

24        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you whether the members of the 6th

25     Sana Brigade were deployed in the town of Sanski Most?

Page 34386

 1        A.   Units of the 6th Brigade were not deployed in the broad area of

 2     Sanski Most.  I just had one unit consisting of about 40 to 50 men near

 3     the TO storage area in Sanski Most to protect that facility in order to

 4     prevent any clashes when that facility was being taken over as well as

 5     the weaponry.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a clarification:  Is the 6th Sana Brigade the

 7     same thing as the 6th Krajina Brigade?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Basara, could you please tell us, what the exact name of your

10     unit is.

11        A.   From the moment when this brigade was established, when I was

12     appointed commander, it bore the name of the 6th Krajina Brigade because

13     it inherited that brigade from the Second World War.  However, later, the

14     leadership from Pale changed its name, and they called it the

15     Sana Brigade.  So it's one and the same brigade.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones be

17     switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Before this, you were speaking about a possible

20     conflict involving the TO storage area or warehouse.  Do you -- can you

21     tell us what kind of information you had about that?

22        A.   I received a lot of information about both Muslims and Serbs

23     getting ready to take over that warehouse and the weapons that were still

24     in that warehouse.  They both wanted to get their hands on that.  So

25     ultimately I decided to move it out, and I moved it to Lusci Palanka so

Page 34387

 1     that it would not be a conflict involving that warehouse.

 2        Q.   Who helped you when these weapons were moved out?

 3        A.   Nijaz Halilovic helped me the most.  Up until then, he was

 4     commander of the TO Staff, and he's the one who co-operated with me the

 5     most in preventing conflicts.

 6        Q.   Mr. Nijaz Halilovic, what is his ethnicity?

 7        A.   He's a Muslim, but it was my understanding that his orientation

 8     was Yugoslav, just like my own.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you something about the take-over

10     of power in Sanski Most.

11             The 6th Krajina Brigade, or, as it was later called, the

12     6th Sana Brigade, did it take part in the take-over of power?

13        A.   I would not say take-over of power because there was a division

14     of power.  That is to say, the municipality -- well, they divided power

15     into the Serb municipality and the Muslim municipality.  However, when

16     the police was divided, then the police and the Muslim leadership took

17     the building of the municipality.  So that was no take-over.  That is to

18     say, it was the Muslims who violently took over the municipality, the 6th

19     brigade did not take part in that at all, and it didn't take part in any

20     of this later either, because there weren't any units that could help

21     either the Serbs or somebody else.  On the contrary.  I helped the

22     Muslims so they could get out of the municipality when I heard who was

23     attacking and then I made it possible for them to get out without

24     fighting.

25        Q.   Could you tell us just briefly how this happened and what your

Page 34388

 1     role was in getting the Muslim policemen out of the municipality

 2     building.

 3        A.   That happened on that day when I was getting the weapons out of

 4     the storage area.  And I had just completed that and went to the command

 5     post in Lusci Palanka.  It may have been 9.00 p.m.  Sabic would call me

 6     and asked me, Colonel, sir, do you know that an attack is it being

 7     prepared against the municipality building.  I said that I had no idea

 8     whatsoever, as was indeed the case.  I asked him on the basis of what and

 9     I certainly received information that they are getting ready to attack

10     the municipality and then I suggested to him that his people should get

11     out of the municipal building because it is not worth sacrificing a

12     single life for some building.  Then in the hotel, there were some

13     military policemen.  I called them and they helped these people get out

14     of the building without any jeopardy.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to ask you something about the

16     Crisis Staff.  Did you attend, and do you remember how often you attended

17     sessions of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most?

18        A.   I attended sessions of the Crisis Staff whenever I was invited

19     and when I had the possibility to do that because I wished to be in a

20     position to follow the situation in the area of Sanski Most on the basis

21     of which I could make decisions of my own.

22        Q.   Did you take part in the work of the Crisis Staff by voting for

23     decisions of the Crisis Staff?

24        A.   I never voted and I never made decisions, but I tried to exercise

25     influence so that the decisions that they made would be as normal as

Page 34389

 1     possible, if you will, so that the other side would not be affected, so

 2     that the rules of warfare would be observed and everything else in that

 3     area.

 4        Q.   Did you ever issue any order to your units on the basis of any

 5     decision made by the Crisis Staff?

 6        A.   There's not a single order of mine that invokes any decisions of

 7     the Crisis Staff, and I never acted on the basis of these decisions

 8     because I did not consider them to be my superiors because I had the

 9     corps command and I only carried --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the end

11     of the sentence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters are asking for a repetition of the

15     last part of the sentence -- the end of the sentence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones be

18     switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Basara, the very last part of your answer has not been

21     recorded.  I'm going to read out the last sentence in the English so that

22     you could get the right interpretation so please just finish your

23     thought.

24             [In English} I quote:

25             "A.  There was not a single order of mine that invokes any

Page 34390

 1     decisions of the Crisis Staff, and I never acted on the basis of these

 2     decisions because I did not consider them to be my superiors because I

 3     had a corps command and I only carried --" end of quote.

 4             [Interpretation] So what did you say at the very end of your

 5     answer?  Could you please repeat?

 6        A.   I said that not a single order was written and in the brigade

 7     command there is no such order that invokes decisions of the Crisis Staff

 8     because I did not consider them to be my superiors.  Because there was

 9     the corps command and also there was the military chain of command, and I

10     observed that and I carried out those orders.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You know while you were in Sanski Most as commander

12     of the 6th Krajina Brigade, did General Talic come to Sanski Most?

13        A.   While I was commander of the brigade, General Talic did not come

14     to Sanski Most at all, and he didn't come to the brigade command either.

15     At one meeting -- actually, it was Lieutenant-Colonel Talic who came

16     several times.  He had been in Banja Luka.  I think that his first name

17     was Mustafa, he is a Muslim.  And once he attended a session of the

18     Crisis Staff.

19             As for General Talic, I know for sure that he did not come at

20     all.

21        Q.   How can you be sure that he never came?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is impossible to

23     interpret when this is the quality of the sound.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please again answer that question put to

25     you by Mr. Lukic where he asked you:  How can you be sure that he -

Page 34391

 1     meaning General Talic - never came.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sure because when -- if

 3     he would come to the area of Sanski Most, he would inform me, for sure,

 4     and he would come to the brigade command to see what we were doing and

 5     how we were doing it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   According to the rules of service, would have you to be notified

 8     if your commander came to the territory of your brigade?

 9        A.   I believe that that would have been his obligation to notify me

10     of his arrival.

11        Q.   As commander of the brigade, what was your position vis-à-vis the

12     organs of municipal government?

13        A.   As for the organs of municipal government, I believed that since

14     the municipality had power, a state of war had not been declared so they

15     had authority over the territory of the municipality of Sanski Most.  At

16     that time I was a peace-time commander, and I did not have any right

17     whatsoever to issue any kind of orders to the municipality organs or to

18     interfere with their work or compel them to carry out some tasks that I

19     would give them.  Rather, through conversations, I tried to influence

20     their work so that it would be as proper as possible.

21        Q.   The municipal authorities, did they try to interfere with your

22     work?

23        A.   The municipal authorities always tried to interfere in the work

24     of the brigade, and they tried to subordinate the brigade to them so that

25     the brigade would be a municipal unit.  However, I, as a professional,

Page 34392

 1     knew that I should not allow that and I did not allow that, although they

 2     tried to do that in every conceivable way.

 3        Q.   I have another question to ask you about the brigade.

 4             Did your brigade have or play any part in the establishment and

 5     running of prisons which existed at the time in Sanski Most, first and

 6     foremost the Krings and Betonirka prisons?

 7        A.   As I said already, there was no state of war declared.  I was a

 8     peacetime commander in that sense and had no right to establish camps or

 9     collection centres.  In that regard, I did not take any part in such

10     activities.  I never entered any collection camp or centre.

11        Q.   Did your brigade or its members take part in the transport of

12     people to Manjaca from the Krings and Betonirka prisons?

13        A.   The brigade did not take any part in the transport of people to

14     anywhere or in the process of moving people out.

15        Q.   As the brigade commander, did you address the population on the

16     radio or did you go to -- in the field to meet with the members of the

17     population?

18        A.   I never addressed them by radio and I contacted with the

19     population - Muslims for the most part - with Nijaz Halilovic.  We tried

20     to speak to them against engaging the military and against causing

21     incidents.

22        Q.   What happened with Nijaz Halilovic after the outbreak of the

23     conflict, if you can tell us briefly.

24        A.   When the conflict occurred and when the Serbs regained possession

25     of the municipal building, although I don't know precisely because I

Page 34393

 1     wasn't informed of it, but when they were arresting the Muslim leadership

 2     they arrested Nijaz Halilovic as well, taking him to Manjaca.  I was away

 3     when it was done.  I was in Belgrade to see my family since they had fled

 4     to Belgrade.  Upon my return, I heard of his arrest.  I was very bitter

 5     about the situation, and I promised myself to find a way to get Nijaz

 6     out.  I knew he was not an extremist and that he should not have been

 7     arrested.

 8        Q.   Just a moment.  Did you go to Manjaca yourself?

 9        A.   First I went to see General Talic.  I explained to him what Nijaz

10     was involved in together with me and how much assistance he provided.  I

11     told him he was not a extremist and I asked him to try and come up with a

12     solution for Nijaz's release.  He did so and together with Mirko Adamovic

13     who I think worked for the court at the time - I don't know whether he

14     was a judge though - we went to Manjaca together.  On the basis of the

15     approval we received, we took Nijaz out of the camp, taking him to

16     Mirko's apartment.  He was there until I left for Belgrade.

17        Q.   You say you left for Belgrade.  What happened with Nijaz

18     following your departure?

19        A.   I kept Nijaz in the apartment since I did not want him to go to

20     the territory of Sanski Most in case somebody tried to liquidate him.

21     When I went to Belgrade, I dressed him in a uniform with a white belt to

22     act as my escort until we crossed the border into Serbia.  His father

23     left a passport and 200 marks for him so that could further -- travel

24     further to Austria and rejoin his family.

25             When he crossed into Serbia, he took off the uniform, put on

Page 34394

 1     civilian clothes and left together with a surgeon who was accompanied by

 2     his family.  They all went to Hungary.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you something about mobilisation.

 4             Please tell us what the difference is between a mobilisation

 5     process in the brigade as opposed to battalion.  What is the difference?

 6     What was this armed force of yours like?  Can you explain to us the

 7     situation back then.

 8        A.   The difference was that there's mention of brigade mobilisation

 9     in different documents.  The brigade had been mobilised at the beginning

10     when the conflict broke out when it went to Titova Korenica and was

11     transferred to Jasenovac.  In other words, it never disbanded and no need

12     for repeated mobilisation; there was always one part of the brigade in

13     existence.  However, battalions were being mobilised in order to

14     implement certain tasks.  During such mobilisation process of the

15     battalion, it becomes part of the brigade and it's under my competence.

16     Once the task is finished, it is disbanded and the soldiers are being

17     sent home, becoming civilians.  In other words, the brigade no longer

18     held any sway over them while they were in their homes.  Until they are

19     recalled, the brigade could not take any measures against them.

20        Q.   In the brigade command, how many people were there in

21     Lusci Palanka?

22        A.   For the most part, the brigade command had 50 per cent of

23     officers present, while the other half were at home, and then they

24     rotated.  The ones who were in the brigade would go home and the ones who

25     were at home came to the brigade.  The same principle was applied to

Page 34395

 1     battalion commands.

 2             As for the other units, they were engaged as I have already

 3     explained.

 4        Q.   How are simple soldiers gathered?  In other words, then, and how

 5     long do they remain implementing their tasks as well as when their tasks

 6     are finished, what is done with them?

 7        A.   At the beginning, say in May or April when we arrived, they were

 8     mostly engaged for a single day when we wanted to put villages under

 9     control to disarm them.  Then they would be engaged by the day, and when

10     their tasks were completed, they were released to go home.  Later on,

11     however, the corps command made use of those battalions at certain fronts

12     and then they would go there for ten days, following which they were

13     replaced by another unit and they returned home.

14        Q.   Did you have any conditions in place to billet greater numbers of

15     soldiers?

16        A.   There were no such conditions for the billeting of soldiers other

17     than those who were with the command.  They were mostly billeted in the

18     houses nearby.  In other words, I had no conditions in place to be able

19     to organise any kind of detention or prison.  If any brigade member was

20     brought in, they were placed in a civilian prison which was in the MUP

21     building.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We are nearing the end.  I wanted to announce this

23     for the sake of the Prosecution so that they know that I would be

24     requiring less time than I initially asked for.

25             Let us go back to the Crisis Staff.  Were Crisis Staff decisions

Page 34396

 1     forwarded to your brigade and its command?

 2        A.   The decisions of the Crisis Staff were not forwarded whatsoever.

 3     Those that I did manage to see as part of the indictment submitted

 4     against me, I see that they frequently occurred without any signature and

 5     it never says that they were forwarded to the brigade command.  They

 6     should cite distribution, but none of that exists.  I think they never

 7     even tried to forward them because they knew I wouldn't act upon them.

 8        Q.   Mr. Basara, thank you for responding to our questions.  At this

 9     point in time, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

12             Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

13             MR. JEREMY:  I am, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Basara, you'll now be cross-examined by

15     Mr. Jeremy.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

17        Q.   Thank you, Your Honours.  And good morning, Mr. Basara.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   I'd like to start by clarifying your previous interviews with the

20     Office of the Prosecutor and your previous prior testimony before this

21     Tribunal.  So, first of all, you have mentioned it today but you

22     testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case on 12th and 13th of

23     October 2009; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And you told the truth during that testimony; correct?

Page 34397

 1        A.   As far as I know, I told the truth.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And you were also interviewed as a suspect by the OTP

 3     on the 31st of August, 2002; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you also told the truth during that interview; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And lastly you were interviewed as a suspect again by the OTP on

 8     the 31st of March, 2009; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And, again, you told the truth during that interview; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move on now and discuss the arrival of

13     the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most.

14             Now, this was on the 3rd of April, 1992; correct.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the -- you brought the brigade to Sanski Most pursuant to an

17     order from General Talic; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, this Chamber has received evidence - that's P3837 - that the

20     Serb Assembly of Sanski Most declared the municipality part of the

21     Autonomous Region of Krajina on this same day, the 3rd of April, 1992.

22     You were aware that the arrival of your brigade coincided with this

23     declaration.  Yes?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Just -- it seems your answer came before --

Page 34398

 1        A.   No, I wasn't aware.  I wasn't aware of that because I was not in

 2     contact at all with the municipal organs.  It was based on my orders that

 3     I brought the brigade in with the task of preparing conflict in the

 4     territory of the municipality of Sanski Most.

 5        Q.   And when your -- when your brigade arrived in Sanski Most, the

 6     6th Brigade, in terms of the numbers of men that you had within this

 7     brigade during 1992, I understand that the numbers reached up to around

 8     4.000 men in July and August 1992; correct?

 9        A.   While the brigade was in Jasenovac it had perhaps 1.000 men at

10     the most.  Very few Muslims and Croats responded to the brigade calls.

11     Thus it was manned through one battalion from Bosanski Novi, which was

12     later renamed into Novi Grad and there was a company from Kljuc as part

13     of the brigade.

14             When the brigade arrived in Sanski Most, I returned the Novi Grad

15     Battalion as well as the Kljuc Company to their original locations.  I

16     manned the rest of the units as best I could so that the brigade could

17     have a greater number of fighters so that I could implement this task of

18     preventing conflicts in that area.

19        Q.   And when you say you manned the brigade as best you could, I'll

20     remind that you in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case you said that the numbers

21     in the brigade were three and a half thousand to 4.000 in July and

22     August of 1992.  Is that -- is that correct?

23        A.   That was in August.  I just explained to you the situation in

24     April, when it arrived, as well as in May.

25             In August, however, I do know that it was the number.  It is

Page 34399

 1     correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now you mentioned that you didn't have a relationship

 3     with the -- you didn't have contact with the municipal organs on your

 4     arrival into Sanski Most but it's correct, is it not, that the order that

 5     General Talic issued to you pursuant to which you brought the 6th Brigade

 6     to Sanski Most asked you to begin to co-ordinate with the organs of

 7     government in Sanski Most.  That's correct; yes?

 8        A.   Well, co-ordination had to do with the manning of the brigade in

 9     terms of co-operating with the Secretariat of National Defence.

10             As regards any political activities, the brigade was under no

11     obligation to engage in that.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's exactly take a quick like at P2865, please, and this

13     is an order from the 5th Corps to the 6th Partisan Brigade and dated 1st

14     of April 1992.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is the 6th Partisan brigade the same thing as the

16     6th Krajina Brigade or the Sana Brigade?

17             MR. JEREMY:  My understanding is that it is and perhaps the

18     witness can confirm.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. JEREMY:

22        Q.   So, Mr. Basara, very quickly, I think the document is on the

23     screen before us now.  We see the document is dated the 1st of April,

24     1992.  And we see if we go to the -- page 3 of the English and page 2 of

25     the -- and page 3 of the B/C/S, we see that it's signed by

Page 34400

 1     Commander Major-General Momir Talic.  And if we can go back to --

 2             Colonel Basara, you see Major-General Talic's signature there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if we can go back to -- the first page of this document,

 5     please.

 6             I want to focus your attention on the paragraph that is two above

 7     point number 2, which reads:  "Establish full co-operation with the

 8     organs of government in Sanski Most municipality and collaboration with

 9     the TO and police units."

10             So, Colonel Basara, does that refresh your recollection that that

11     was what was required of you on arriving into Sanski Most?

12        A.   We can see that in the order.  However, that co-operation

13     included security organs and the police in terms of gathering information

14     and reports from the field.

15             As regards the TO, I did establish co-operation with its

16     commander, Nijaz Halilovic, for the most part.

17             As regards municipal organs, it involved the manning of units

18     rather than any other tasks.

19        Q.   Well, we'll get to the nature of the co-operation between your

20     brigade and the organs of government in Sanski Most.  However, you'll

21     agree with me that there is no reference here of restricting that

22     co-operation simply to the manning of units rather than other tasks?

23        A.   You see, this is just a formulation when certain tasks are being

24     issued by a command.  However, in the field, things look different.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And as I say, we'll get to how things looked in the

Page 34401

 1     field.  Let's move on.

 2             Now, you left your position as commander of the 6th Brigade in

 3     middle of December 1992; correct?

 4        A.   Upon my request, I wanted to leave the position of commander.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And following a brief period of time in Belgrade, you

 6     were then appointed commander of an operations group in Prijedor between

 7     March and August 1993; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in August 1993, you retired for the last time from the VRS

10     and you went to Belgrade; correct?

11        A.   I did not retire.  I had already retired as officer.  I simply

12     left the corps and the brigade.

13        Q.   And from that point onwards, you no longer had a position in the

14     VRS; is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.  I had no position.  I was a simple retiree, living in

16     Belgrade.

17        Q.   So it's correct that after you retired on -- sorry, after you

18     left the VRS in August 1993, you went to Belgrade; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And --

21        A.   That is where my family was.

22        Q.   And did you return to Sanski Most before the end of the war in

23     1995?

24        A.   I think I did twice to see my wife's parents who were over 80

25     years old.  I would stay for a couple of days perhaps.  In terms of any

Page 34402

 1     kind of participation in the brigade, there was none.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'd like to move on now and in the moments

 3     that we have -- the few minutes we have before we'll break, I'd like to

 4     discuss your relationship with General Talic, your corps commander.

 5             Now, you knew General Talic well; yes?

 6        A.   I knew him well because I used to teach at the Military Academy.

 7     I know him since his time as a cadet.  He knew me and treated me with

 8     respect during the period of my engagement.

 9        Q.   Now, in your 2002 interview with the OTP, you described

10     General Talic as a very active commander in the sense that he wanted to

11     know what was going on as far as knowledge of events was concerned.

12     That's -- that's correct; yes?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you also said that in your view he was not an active

15     commander in the sense of actually commanding operations themselves and

16     you said in comparison with -- with, for example, General Mladic; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   It is correct that I said that he was not active in directing

19     activities in terms of his participation.  He was more the sort of

20     commander who commanded from his command post.

21        Q.   And when you compared that style of command to the more active

22     style of command of General Mladic, were you basing this on any personal

23     observations that you had of General Mladic's active command style?

24        A.   I did not know General Mladic at all.  I had no occasion to meet

25     him, but based on what I could follow, I concluded that General Mladic

Page 34403

 1     was an officer who wanted to know everything, follow everything, and

 2     participate in things.

 3        Q.   And that conclusion was based on General Mladic's reputation

 4     within the VRS.  Do I understand that correctly?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I think we're at the time for a break.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We are, Mr. Jeremy.

 8             Mr. Basara, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see

 9     you back after that.

10             We'll resume at ten minutes past midday.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we establish that the videolink is still

14     working well?

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear and

16     see you clearly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Colonel Basara, we left off talking about -- on the topic of

21     General Talic.  I'd now like to move to the related topic of reports that

22     your brigade would send to General Talic in the corps command.  And this

23     is something that you previously discussed.

24             Now, your brigade sent regular daily reports to the corps;

25     correct?

Page 34404

 1        A.   Well, I don't know, I did not sign all of them, so I don't know

 2     whether they went every day.  At any rate, this was sent through the duty

 3     officer.  That is to say the duty officer of the brigade command was the

 4     one to compile that report, so I don't know whether these reports were

 5     sent every day.  Most often the duty officer would sign these reports and

 6     send them.

 7        Q.   And would you say then that General Talic -- or you would say and

 8     you previously said this, that General Talic was well-informed about

 9     events that were occurring in the area of the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most;

10     yes?

11        A.   Well, he received most of his information through personal

12     conversations with me.

13        Q.   But I'm correct when I say that when reports were sent from the

14     command post in your brigade, then your experience and experience that

15     you've previously discussed is that there was always someone at the corps

16     command to receive those daily reports; correct?

17        A.   Well, certainly duty service was organised and the duty officer

18     at the corps received these reports.  Now, to what extent was

19     General Talic interested in reading and following all these reports, that

20     is something that I don't know.

21        Q.   And when you say that General Talic received information through

22     personal conversations with you, those conversations were frequent;

23     correct?

24        A.   Well, I didn't talk to him often but every time we met, I would

25     familiarize him with the situation in the territory and everything we did

Page 34405

 1     and things like that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, maybe we'll return to this in a little more detail

 3     later.

 4             Now, I'd like to move to the topic of military police.  During

 5     1992, your brigade had first a platoon and later a company of military

 6     police; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And there were approximately 90 men in this company of military

 9     police; correct?

10        A.   Well, I don't know exactly how many there were, but it could have

11     been over 80, over 80 men, to the best of my recollection.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, could I seek clarification of one of the

14     previous answers.

15             Witness, isn't it true that in the control and command structure

16     reporting is very important?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, I wondered when you said, well,

19     what -- he got his information by incidental conversations with you, if

20     you would see him you would tell him something.  That sounds very

21     unmilitary.  Could you explain why a structured --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear what the

23     witness said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you just said.

25             Witness, could you repeat what you said because the interpreters

Page 34406

 1     couldn't catch your words.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we started speaking at the

 3     same time, so then I stopped.

 4             I wished to say that the superior command received information

 5     mostly through the reports from the duty service.  That is to say,

 6     everything that happened during the course of the day was supposed to be

 7     reported on.  However, often it depended on the duty officer involved,

 8     the one who was supposed to write that report.  So the command --

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that this information

11     that was necessary was information that General Talic received from

12     personal conversations with me.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- that's still not entirely clear to me.  You

14     say, on the one hand, it was the duty officer who did the reporting and

15     that the necessary information General Talic received in personal

16     conversations with you.

17             Could you clarify?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, necessary information, I'm

19     saying the information that he could not receive through reports of the

20     duty service.  That is to say, the duty officers.  Since I knew more than

21     the duty officer, then he could receive such information from me.

22     Furthermore, officers, according to their own lines of work, would

23     provide information.  For example, for morale and training, such an

24     officer was -- would report to his superior.  Then the chief of

25     engineering, the chief of security, also sent certain information to the

Page 34407

 1     security organs of the corps.  So, in that way, the system of information

 2     was organised.  And --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The last portion of your answer was not understood

 5     by the interpreters.  Could you please repeat that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the organs at the

 7     brigade command, the organ for morale and training, this person would

 8     sometimes send reports when necessary to his organ at the corps command.

 9     Then the chief of engineering would send a report to the chief of

10     engineering in the command.  The security organ would send some

11     information to the security organ in the corps.  So there was that chain

12     of command too.  Then the duty officer's reports and then through

13     personal contacts with me and all of that is how the corps commander

14     received all his information and was supposed to be made aware of things.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you give us an example of what kind of

16     information was conveyed to General Talic in personal conversations which

17     could not be, as you said, could not be given to him in the normal

18     reporting structure?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for information, and that is the

20     overall situation in the territory where I often went and I worked in

21     order to prevent a conflict and things like that, as far as disarmament

22     was concerned and so on, the duty officer was not aware of all of this,

23     and he could not provide information about that and the organs couldn't

24     either.  So when we meet up he would often ask me about certain

25     information, he would express his interest and then I would provide that

Page 34408

 1     information to him, what I thought he had not received through the other

 2     organs.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Than happened just, if you happened to meet without

 4     any plan or any structure?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, it didn't just happen

 6     accidentally.  He would ask me to come to the corps command.  He would

 7     invite me.  It didn't just happen that way.  It was done when necessary.

 8     And when I would ask for something for the brigade, we would meet up.  So

 9     we met up pretty often.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Just to follow up on these personal conversations, Mr. Basara,

13     that you were having with General Talic.  You previously indicated in

14     reference to the crimes in Sanski Most that you were aware of, some of

15     which you discuss in your statement, you've indicated that the crimes

16     that you were aware of General Talic was also aware of.  That's correct,

17     isn't it?

18        A.   Well, I think he did know.  I cannot assert whether he did know

19     or not but I know that he was being informed.

20        Q.   And you know that he was being informed because your reporting on

21     these crimes were included in your personal conversations; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   I cannot confirm that for you, when that was I talked to him but

24     I know that on the basis of all these reports, he believed that I, in

25     relation to all other commanders in the territory, was the one who had

Page 34409

 1     carried out all the activities concerned in the most normal and regular

 2     way so in his understanding, there weren't many problems, crime, et

 3     cetera.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 5     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   Mr. Basara, I'm not focussing on your own conduct right now.

 9     What I'm asking you about is the crimes that you say that you knew of,

10     you say General Talic also knew about those crimes and I'm asking you how

11     he knew about them and I think your answer is:  He did know about them

12     but you're not sure how.  You're not sure whether they were conveyed in

13     reports or in personal conversation, but he was nevertheless aware of the

14     crimes in Sanski Most that you were aware of.  Is that correct?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Jeremy, you are asked to switch off your

16     microphone.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main line was the duty

18     officers -- well, whether he registered these crimes and whether he found

19     out about them totally, that is something I cannot say.  But information

20     was sent through the duty officers' reports and other reports but I

21     cannot remember now - it's been a very long time - I cannot remember

22     whether in one of the conversation I said something to him about any one

23     of these crimes.  I cannot say that for sure now.

24             MR. JEREMY:

25        Q.   But you previously indicated that you knew that General Talic was

Page 34410

 1     aware of crimes that were aware of, but you're now simply saying but your

 2     not sure how he became aware of those crimes.  Is that -- do I understand

 3     your answer correctly?

 4        A.   I am telling you that he was supposed to find out about that

 5     through the duty service reports and it depends whether they reported to

 6     him about that, and I thought that he knew about it because he was

 7     supposed to have received these reports.

 8        Q.   So if the -- if the reports on the crimes were not included in

 9     the duty officer reports, then he obviously found out some other way;

10     yes?

11        A.   Well, I don't know any other way.  I mean, I don't know what you

12     mean.

13        Q.   Okay.  You were previously asked in the 2002 interview whether

14     the crimes that were aware of, whether General Talic was also aware of

15     those crimes.  And you indicated that the crimes that you knew were

16     committed General Talic was also aware of.  So what was the basis for

17     that observation, for that comment?

18        A.   Well, I believed because of the reports on the system on the

19     basis of which we worked I believe that he knew about all of that.  I did

20     not double-check.  I did not ask him whether he knew about this.

21        Q.   So you're saying it -- it was an assumption that you -- that you

22     made; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, the assumption is that he knew, just like I found out about

24     many things although I did not receive reports.

25        Q.   And we'll get to the detail of these crimes.  But the crimes that

Page 34411

 1     were aware of it was your obligation to report those to your superior

 2     officer; correct?

 3        A.   I told you that I personally didn't have to do that.  So there's

 4     the command, everybody had their own duties.  There was the security

 5     organ that reported in great detail to their superior in the corps

 6     command.  So all of that, all this information, had to arrive in the

 7     corps command.  I could not manage everything as the commander.  In

 8     addition to all of my duties and obligations, I could not think of each

 9     and every detail.  I could not worry about whether someone had found out

10     about everything or not.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Jeremy, I would like to ask for one

12     clarification.

13             Mr. Basara, you said you could not manage everything as the

14     commander.  But as the commander, did you have a responsibility for a

15     proper reporting system by your duty officers and by the assistant

16     commanders of your brigade?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what we did.  That is

18     to say, all the organs of command reported along their own lines and

19     chains, and the duty officer did that too.  At first, I was the only

20     professional soldier in my brigade.  I had so many obligations.  I had

21     such a lot of work that I could not follow all of this in great detail

22     and I could not stand behind every report, read and sign each and every

23     report, because I had to feed the troops, provide them with clothing,

24     ammunition, everything else, and I --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Basara, I would like to stop you here.  I'm

Page 34412

 1     not talking about feeding the troops or everything else.

 2             Was it your responsibility as a superior -- as the commander of

 3     the brigade, to supervise your subordinates, including the desk officer

 4     and the duty officer, that they fulfilled their obligations properly,

 5     according to the rules and the law?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did that.  That's my duty as

 7     commander and I'm not denying that.  I did that to the best of my

 8     ability, as much as I could.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Jeremy.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   And following up on Judge Fluegge's question, you've previously

13     indicated that while you were not aware of the content of every daily

14     report, the reports did, nevertheless, go to the corps command every day.

15     And that's true, isn't it?

16        A.   I cannot claim anything because I did not have insight, and I was

17     not always at the corps command, and I cannot claim that every day they

18     went so I cannot assert that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you the following:  On a

20     regular basis, were daily reports sent?  I'm not asking whether you may

21     have missed one or two, but was it a routine that daily reports were

22     sent?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a routine to have daily

24     reports sent that way.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 34413

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Mr. Basara, let's -- Colonel Basara, let's move to a different

 4     topic which you discuss in your statement and that is the relationship

 5     that you cultivated with the Muslims and Croats in Sanski Most.

 6             Now, in paragraph 9 of your statement, your position seems to be

 7     broadly that you endeavoured to prevent conflicts between the ethnic

 8     groups in Sanski Most and that you had talks with representatives of the

 9     Muslims and the Croats and the Serbs in Sanski Most and you did what you

10     referred to as trying to defuse the heated situation.  That's correct;

11     yes?

12        A.   It is correct.  Together with Nijaz Halilovic, I visited all the

13     villages, all the Muslim villages in the broader area of the road from

14     Sanski Most to Lusci Palanka in the villages or in the parts of town --

15     the town of Sanski Most, I'm not sure where we were, actually.  It's been

16     a very long time.  However, on the basis of the conclusion and opinion of

17     Nijaz Halilovic, we visited these villages.  We assembled people, talked

18     to them, asked them not to have any conflicts taking place so that no one

19     would use weapons, especially not against members of the brigade.  This

20     would lead to revenge from the Serb people and I tried to explain that we

21     should go on living in that territory as we had been living until then,

22     living a normal life.

23        Q.   And --

24        A.   But --

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 34414

 1        A.   -- on a higher level, like the leadership of the Muslims in

 2     Sarajevo when the JNA was attacked and when they started conflicts, then

 3     these plans of mine and all of that was simply buried.

 4        Q.   Now, at the same time that you were going from village to village

 5     holding these discussions with Muslims and Croats in Sanski Most, you

 6     were also organising and arming Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?

 7        A.   I did not organise this and I did not arm them.  Most Serbs were

 8     already armed by then.  I had nowhere to get these weapons.  Most of them

 9     were armed already.  Most Serbs already had weapons at that time, and I

10     just made an effort to bring them all under a command, to involve them in

11     certain units so that I could exercise more control over them.

12        Q.   Let's take a look at a document in connection with your previous

13     answer.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P2365.  And, Your Honours, this

15     is the document I mentioned as part of the preliminary that we have the

16     revised translation for.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you had an opportunity to look at the new

18     translation?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I did not from the opportunity to check the whole

20     translation, no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  No, that's --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Although I left it with my Case Manager.  It should

23     be done over this session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. JEREMY:  We've provided a short document highlighting the

Page 34415

 1     changes between the two versions so I hope that will be a quick process.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Basara, you recognised the document on the screen before

 3     you; yes?  It's written in your handwriting?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And --

 6        A.   Yes, it's my handwriting.  And these people from the brigade, I

 7     mean, some officers, they had the intention of writing the history of the

 8     brigade and they asked me to write something is and I wrote something

 9     sort of shorter, and I gave them this document.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So you previously said that you wrote this at the end

11     of 1992 or early 1993; is that correct?

12        A.   I don't know when exactly I wrote it.  I just know that they

13     asked me to do it and that I did.  It was such a long time ago that I no

14     longer remember when I wrote it.

15        Q.   I understand that.  Do you recall whether you wrote it after you

16     were no longer commander of the 6th Brigade?

17        A.   I think -- I don't know.  I don't know if I wrote it when I was

18     no longer commander of the 6th Brigade.  It could also be just before my

19     departure or when I commanded the operational group, but I can't say that

20     with any certainty.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let's take a look at the contents of this document, and

22     I'd like to go please to page 2 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

23             And directing your attention to number 4, towards the top of the

24     page, we read that:  "Interethnic conflicts intensified in the

25     municipalities of Sanski Most, Prijedor and Kljuc in March 1991."

Page 34416

 1             Now I'm correct in saying that that should be March 1992; yes?

 2        A.   No.  It refers to the period before my arrival in the brigade.  I

 3     received reports from my relatives in Lusci Palanka about the situation

 4     in that part of the territory and this is what it pertains to.

 5        Q.   Then in the next paragraph when we see the reference to the

 6     1st Krajina Corps withdrawing the 6th from Jasenovac and Sanski Most, and

 7     we see the reference to 3rd of April 1991, the 6th being transferred to

 8     Sanski Most, that -- at least that paragraph should be a reference to the

 9     3rd of April 1992; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  That the brigade arrived from Jasenovac to Sanski Most.

11        Q.   On the 3rd of April, 1992.

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Jeremy, this is not the next paragraph, but

14     the next sentence just to make it clear for the record.  You said in the

15     next paragraph.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Now, in the next -- in the next sentence down, we read as

18     follows, Colonel Basara:  "After the brigade came to this area, the

19     Muslims and Croats became afraid while the Serbs heaved a sigh of relief.

20     However, the brigade was not fully replenished and since the

21     1st Battalion was almost entirely from Novi Grad, they requested to go to

22     their own area.  We had to arm the Serbs quickly and quickly replenish

23     our units.  Since we, as JNA units, were tasked with preventing

24     interethnic conflicts, i.e., the slaughter of the Serbian people, we

25     could not be seen to be arming the Serbs in public.  We worked along two

Page 34417

 1     lines:  The first was to organise and arm the Serbian people; and the

 2     second to negotiate and convince the Muslims and Croats to remain loyal

 3     and live together with the Serbs.  The negotiations were about the

 4     division of power.  We had to resort to trickery to make it possible for

 5     us to arm Serbs publicly and legally."

 6             Colonel Basara, my question is this:  According to your own

 7     words, while you were negotiating with the non-Serbs in Sanski Most, you

 8     were also organising and arming the Serbs, the Serbs in Sanski Most.

 9     That's correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Listen, if I may, I'd like to give a more extensive explanation

11     and then you will understand why I wrote it the way I did, if I may.

12        Q.   Well, I'd ask you to be as focussed as you can be in any short

13     explanation that you provide.

14        A.   As regards the explanation, it is as follows.  At a session of

15     the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly where all three peoples were

16     represented, I proposed the following, wishing to stay true to what I was

17     trying to explain the Muslims in those villages.  I wanted to ask them to

18     establish a brigade reflecting the ethnic makeup in the territory which

19     was 50 per cent Serbs and 50 Muslims and Croats --

20        Q.   Colonel Basara, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  This, I think is

21     dealt with in your statement and I'll also deal with this in my next

22     question, so once I've asked that question and you've provided your

23     answer, then you'll have another opportunity to provide any additional

24     answer, if you think that that's necessary.

25        A.   What I said, that we were arming them, it has to do with the

Page 34418

 1     following.  I am an ethnic Serb, and I was being accused by Serbs of

 2     assisting Muslims and acting as a pro-Muslim element, that I married a

 3     Muslim woman and was helping the Muslims.  That is why in this text I

 4     wrote, I had to wiggle my way out of being accused as a traitor of the

 5     Serb people who worked solely for the benefit of Muslims.  I had to

 6     explain one thing to one side and another thing to the other side.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Basara, let's stick to the facts.  Did you arm

 8     Serbs or not?  Apart from what reasons you had.  Or were you involved in

 9     arming Serbs?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in no position to arm them

11     because I had no arms.  As I said, the Serbs, most of them had already

12     had weapons, and I only placed them in units.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Although --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims did not wish to respond

15     and --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But in your own handwriting, we read that you had to

17     arm the Serbs quickly and quickly replenish your orders.  You did not

18     write, We didn't have to arm the Serbs because they had weapons already.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't write it.  You now

20     insist on that, but I couldn't put it in those words.  I couldn't say

21     they had weapons.  This formulation needn't necessarily have been true.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you saying that what you wrote down is not what

23     happened?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It isn't as it happened because

25     most of them had already had weapons.  However, I don't see any crime in

Page 34419

 1     arming one's own people, when the other side, Muslims and Croats, were

 2     also arming themselves.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand your answer, that there was nothing

 4     wrong in arming them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If one side is arming themselves,

 6     the Muslims, and if they are attacking the units of the JNA, then

 7     normally the Serbs had the right to arm themselves as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that you thought that it was

 9     justified to arm them for this reason and that's why it happened?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said I wrote it this way

11     because --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I didn't ask you why you wrote it the way

13     you did.  I asked you a question whether the fact that the other ethnic

14     groups had armed themselves was, for you, the justification to be

15     involved in arming the Serbs.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believed that the Serbs, too, had

17     the right to do that if the Muslims were arming themselves and initiating

18     aggression.  I thought, under those circumstances, the Serbs were

19     entitled to arms as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was, for you, the reason to be involved in

21     arming the Serbs?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not go to collect any weapons

23     and I did not distribute them.  I simply ordered that those people be

24     included in the units.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That --

Page 34420

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- people gained possession of

 2     weapons in many, many different ways.  I don't even know which ways

 3     exactly.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not the language you used in your own

 5     handwriting, isn't it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said so already why I wrote

 7     it the way I did.  There was already a witch hunt against me saying that

 8     as the commander, I was a pro-Muslim element so I had to put a stop to

 9     such rumours so that I wouldn't be recorded in history as ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So, but then what you say, I wrote it just to

11     re-write history and to avoid being blamed, but it didn't happen as I

12     wrote it?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly repeat.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it didn't.  It didn't

16     happen as I wrote it because I wrote it this way with a particular goal

17     in mind.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you're telling us that you're giving us

19     the reason why you wrote it.  And, at the same time, you give us a

20     justification for arming Serbs.  If it didn't happen, why would be bother

21     about whether it would be justified or not?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't deal with that much.  My

23     understanding was simply that if one side was being armed, the other side

24     was entitled to it as well.  I did not give any such right to anyone.

25     That was my understanding.  That was the general understanding in

Page 34421

 1     existence at the time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you're telling us now is that although it

 3     would have been justified to arm the Serbs and although you did write

 4     down that Serbs were armed, that it, nevertheless, did not happen?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying they were not being

 6     armed at all.  I'm just saying that most of them had already had weapons.

 7     If somebody received weapons at that time, there were far fewer of them

 8     than there were of those who already had weapons.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said Serbs were armed but the quantity was

10     relatively low?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who were armed later on,

12     their numbers were smaller compared to the ones who already had weapons.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   And, Colonel Basara, you actually were also involved in arming of

16     Serbs in Sanski Most in 1991.  That's correct, isn't it?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Now, this Chamber has received evidence that Serbs were being

19     armed in Sanski Most in 1991 and that they were being organised and armed

20     by a man called Rajko Stojanovic.  And that's P2362.  You knew

21     Rajko Stojanovic, didn't you, Colonel Basara?

22        A.   I met Rajko Stojanovic later on when I arrived in the area of

23     Sanski Most.  In his house on the ground floor, he had a cafe and that is

24     where weapons were being deposited, the same weapons that had been taken

25     from the Sanski Most warehouse.  Somebody probably made this connection,

Page 34422

 1     saying that he was arming people.  However, I am not aware of that fact.

 2     I only know, as I said already, that the TO weapons when they were pulled

 3     out of Sanski Most were stored with him to a great extent.

 4        Q.   And, sir, when you say, "I met Rajko Stojanovic later on when I

 5     arrived in the area of Sanski Most," was that in 1992?

 6        A.   In April 1992.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So your evidence is that you didn't know this man

 8     before that time; is that correct?

 9        A.   Correct.  I don't know if I met him anywhere but we were

10     officially introduced in April.

11        Q.   And --

12        A.   -- 1992.

13        Q.   And when you say in your previous answers that someone probably

14     made this connection saying that Rajko Stojanovic was arming people,

15     that's actually a connection that you make in your handwritten history in

16     the document before us.

17             Could we take a look at the first page of this please, page 1,

18     I'd like to focus on paragraph 2.  There, Colonel Basara, we read:  "I

19     was in Lusci Palanka in late September and early October 1991.  The

20     reason I went there was to help the Serbian people organise for defence

21     against the attack of Muslims and Croats.  Rajko Stojanovic knows the

22     most about it so he can say more about it if necessary, because I do not

23     have much time."

24             So, Colonel Basara, in fact, you met Rajko Stojanovic not in 1992

25     but in 1991 and you were then aware of this arming during this period;

Page 34423

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Given the fact that I wrote this subsequently, it is probable

 3     that this does not tally.  I don't recall having met him in 1991.  We may

 4     have met each other somewhere along the way, but I can't state that it is

 5     actually true.

 6        Q.   Well, your information about this man seems to be rather

 7     specific.  You don't say that you simply met him in passing on the road.

 8     You actually talk about what he was actually involved in, and you

 9     suggested you have more information than you're able to include in this

10     war history.  That's correct, isn't it?

11        A.   Well, I didn't say that later on I did not learn of this Rajko.

12     He later on became company commander in one of the battalions.  Hence, I

13     met Rajko later on.  Probably we conversed and later on, as I was writing

14     this, I made that link.

15        Q.   So if I understand your position correctly, you were in

16     Lusci Palanka in late September, October 1991 you were there to help the

17     Serbian people organise for their defence against the Muslims and Croats.

18     At that point, you weren't aware of Rajko Stojanovic but you subsequently

19     became aware of it and in writing this history, you retrospectively say

20     he'll also know a bit about that, a bit about what I was doing in

21     September and October 1991?

22        A.   Probably that is the source it comes from.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are losing the witness.

24     We can't hear it.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke to some of the neighbours,

Page 34424

 1     and then I told them how to position themselves in order not to have 1941

 2     repeated, that the Serbs would not be exterminated from the senior.

 3             MR. JEREMY:

 4        Q.   I'm not talking about 1941.  I'm focussing on what you were doing

 5     in September and early October 1991.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, in all fairness to the witness, that is

 7     what he -- what was the -- the -- the core of his answer.  He -- he spoke

 8     to some of the neighbours and told them how to position themselves in

 9     order not to have a repetition of 1941.  So he focussed his answer

10     primarily what did he in 1991, although a reference was made as part of

11     his activities that he referred -- that he did it for the purposes of a

12     non-repetition of what happened in 1941.

13             So I think it's not fair to the witness that he was not asked

14     about 1941.  He focussed his answer relatively well to your question.

15             Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  And we can see that the translators

17     could not hear actually the beginning of the answer of this witness and

18     he was explaining his whereabouts at that time and how much time he spent

19     in Lusci Palanka.  So I think [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... could we invite the

21     witness --

22             Witness, not all of your answer was caught by the interpreters.

23     Could you tell us what you said just before you told us that you spoke to

24     some of the neighbours.  What did you tell us before that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that, I said that in that

Page 34425

 1     period, I did not spend any significant amounts of time in the area.  I

 2     only came to visit my wife's parents.  I spent only a few days there,

 3     talking to the neighbours.  They were very afraid of seeing 1941 repeated

 4     because the Muslims were better armed and still arming.  I talked to them

 5     about it and went back to Sarajevo.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Mr. Rajko Stojanovic could tell us more

 7     about that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I am.  Because in the text which is before us,

10     after you said that the reason was to help the Serbian --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the first part

12     of the answer.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the first part of your answer.  And

14     I think it's better to wait until I've finished my question usually

15     before you start your answer because then your words are easily lost.

16             Could you repeat the beginning of your answer.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not spend any

18     significant time in the area of Lusci Palanka at the time.  I was there

19     for only two to three days, visiting my wife's parents and my relatives.

20             At the time, I talked to the neighbours I met.  They were very

21     afraid.  They were afraid of seeing 1941 happen again.  They were telling

22     me how the Muslims were arming themselves.  We talked about it, and I

23     suggested some ways for them to organise themselves.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Mr. -- it's not what you write down that you

Page 34426

 1     went there to see your family and then in the margin of that spoke to

 2     some neighbours.  What you have written down is that you -- the reason

 3     why you went there is to help the Serbian people organise the defence.

 4     It being the reason why you went there.  But I leave it to that at this

 5     moment.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You hold on tight to my words, but

 7     I'm telling you what is true.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   We'll shortly move away from this document, Colonel Basara, but

11     I'd like to hold on tight to some other words that you include here.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 2 of the English, please, and

13     page 3 of the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Now referring first to your statement in paragraph 17 and 18, you

15     refer to -- you state that before the split of the MUP and the division

16     of power in Sanski Most you propose that Muslims and Croats should be --

17     should assist you in establishing a brigade that would be comprised of 50

18     per cent Serb population and 50 per cent Muslim and Croat population.

19     And in the next paragraph, you talk about how the president of the

20     Executive Board of the Sanski Most municipality Mirzet Karabeg asked you

21     if battalions of the mixed brigade would go to Kupres to fight and you

22     say that you told him that you had two battalions in the brigade that

23     were mostly comprised of Serbs and that these battalions would go to

24     Kupres if need be.

25             Now, with those two paragraphs in mind I'd like to refer you back

Page 34427

 1     to paragraph 4 of this handwritten history and I'd like to take to you

 2     where I left off reading when we last looked at this paragraph and we

 3     read halfway through paragraph 4:  "A story was invented that the

 4     commander of the 1 KK ordered that the 6th be promoted from a light to an

 5     infantry brigade so that it could have up to 15 battalions and could be

 6     additionally mobilised as soon as possible to prevent Muslims" --

 7             MR. JEREMY:  I think we need to go to the next page in the B/C/S.

 8             "To prevent Muslims and Croats from joining the brigade it was

 9     said that the brigade would be going to Kupres as soon as mobilisation

10     was completed?"

11        Q.   So, Colonel Basara, in fact, you did the exact opposite to what

12     you say you did in the statement.  You told the Muslims and the Croats

13     that the brigade would be going to Kupres for the express purpose of

14     ensuring that they did not enlist.  That's correct, isn't it?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

16     witness.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not correct.  And I cannot

18     see it here now.  But I doubt that.  I doubt that that's what I wrote.

19     Because my intention was to establish such a brigade and to secure the

20     territory of the municipality of Sanski Most in a circular fashion and

21     had the Muslims and Croats responded, that's exactly what I would have

22     done.  However --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.

24             You started by doubting whether that's what you wrote, and

25     Mr. Jeremy will now take you to the passage and to see whether you did

Page 34428

 1     write what he said or not.

 2             Mr. Jeremy.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   So if we can look at page 3 and we're looking at halfway down --

 5     page 3 in the B/C/S, please, halfway down, paragraph 4, and

 6     Colonel Basara, can you see the sentence that begins with:  "A story was

 7     invented ..."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It is almost at the bottom of the page, I think.

 9             MR. JEREMY:

10        Q.   It should be one, two, three, four, five, six -- six or seven

11     lines or so up from the bottom of the page.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I got the impression in B/C/S it is four lines from

13     the bottom where command of the 1st Krajina Corps is specifically

14     referred to.

15             Could you reed that, Mr. Basara?  Have you found --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st commander of the

17     1st Krajina Corps ordered that the 6th be re-established from a light

18     brigade to an infantry brigade.  And that it could have 15 battalions and

19     the brigade would have to be additionally mobilised as soon as possible.

20             I've just read that and that is what I wrote and that is what

21     happened.  Namely --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- witness I'll stop you.  Could you please

23     continue to read.  We'll change the page, and you start with "da

24     Muslimani."  Could you read that portion as well?  The last two words

25     being, "da Muslimani," and we move now to the next page in B/C/S.

Page 34429

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the brigade after the

 2     mobilisation is over should go to Kupres and then conditions were created

 3     for a legal mobilisation.  That's what's written there.  However, my idea

 4     was that the Serbs --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  We're just still establishing what you

 6     wrote.

 7             Mr. -- I think we started with the commander of the 1st Krajina

 8     Brigade and then there's a portion in English --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Corps.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Lukic, could you please assist.  You have the -- Mr. Jeremy

12     is focussing specifically on the lines that to prevent Muslims and Croats

13     from joining the brigade.

14             From what I hear from the witness, he doesn't -- he has not read

15     that, which either it isn't there or he left it out.

16             MR. JEREMY:  I didn't -- didn't hear that particular part either,

17     Your Honours, I wonder if we could ask the witness to again slowly read

18     that final sentence just to see if it's an oversight --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So we move to the previous page in B/C/S.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you read -- Witness, could you read -- first

22     of all, do you find a line where it says:  "A story was invented that the

23     commander of the 1st Krajina Corps ordered that the 6th be promoted from

24     a light to an infantry brigade ..."

25             Do you see that line?

Page 34430

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you read the text from -- starting with that

 3     sentence.  And continue to read -- and continue to read until I ask you

 4     to stop.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 6     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A story was invented that the

 8     commander of the 1st Krajina Corps had ordered that the 6th be renamed

 9     from a light into an infantry brigade and that it could have even up to

10     15 battalions and that the brigade would have to be additionally

11     mobilised as soon as possible.  In order not to have Muslims and Croats

12     come to the brigade, it was said that the brigade as soon as mobilisation

13     would be completed should go to Kupres.  Then conditions were created to

14     legally" --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- that's sufficient for the time being,

16     Mr. Jeremy, I take it.

17             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             Witness, we did this -- witness, would you please wait for a

20     second.  Witness, would you -- Witness, would you wait for a second.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's not for you to put questions.

23             You earlier doubted whether the portion you now just read,

24     whether you had written that.  I think we have established now that you

25     did write the text as you just read it to us.

Page 34431

 1             Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Sir, contrary to what you say in your statements, the truth is

 4     that you took steps, steps that we've looked at here, to actively

 5     discourage Muslims and Croats from enlisting in the 6th Brigade; correct?

 6        A.   That is not correct.  Because, in this sentence, where it says

 7     "it was said," it's not that I said that they would go to Kupres.

 8     Rather, these were news that were being spread by the Serbs who attended

 9     the session of the assembly when I suggested that such a brigade be

10     formed.

11        Q.   So in your war time record of the 6th Brigade you're simply

12     recounting what others said rather than what you yourself said.  Is

13     that -- that's your position on this paragraph or on this document or on

14     this paragraph?

15        A.   What is written in this paragraph, well, I already explained that

16     to you why I wrote it that way.  Because I could not allow people to

17     think that I was against arming the Serbs and that I'm arming Muslims and

18     Croats with the proposal that I had made and that I wished to man the

19     brigade in that way.

20        Q.   And just before we reach our break time, you seem to be

21     suggesting that you would write some things in this document to appease

22     somebody in the municipality.  And who -- who was it that you were trying

23     to appease?

24        A.   I did not have the intention to relent in any way.  I just didn't

25     want any slander.  I didn't want them to say that I was pro-Muslim and

Page 34432

 1     that I was a traitor of the Serb people.  That's why I wrote it that way.

 2        Q.   And when you're referring --

 3        A.   After --

 4        Q.   When you're referring -- sir, when you're referring to "them," do

 5     I understand you to be referring to the Serbian political authorities in

 6     Sanski Most or are you referring to the -- to the military authorities in

 7     Sanski Most?  Who are you referring to?

 8        A.   The political authorities.  Because immediately at that meeting

 9     Rasula said to me, Colonel, yet again, you want to create brotherhood and

10     unity.

11        Q.   And when you wrote this, you were a colonel in the VRS in charge

12     of many thousands of soldiers, but you felt you needed to write this to

13     appease Rasula; is that correct?

14        A.   Not only Rasula but also around the brigade.  People were

15     spreading this like news, that in battalions they were taking in all the

16     Muslims and Croats who would report there.  And then from the political

17     leadership from the Serbs that is to say, Rasula, Vrkes and I don't know

18     what was being bandied about was I was a pro-Muslim element they went to

19     see Talic asking him to dismiss me and so on.  Do understand the

20     conditions under which I was working?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I have two very short questions of fact for

22     you.  Was it said that the brigade would be going to Kupres as soon as

23     mobilisation was completed?  Was that said or was that not said?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that.  I did not

25     convey that because I did --

Page 34433

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... witness, I

 2     didn't ask you whether you said that.  My question was whether it was

 3     said that the brigade would be going to Kupres --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably it was said.  Since I

 5     heard people saying in Sanski Most that the brigade, once it is formed,

 6     it is going against Kupres, and I was saying to the Muslim leadership

 7     that the brigade would not go there but rather it would go to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, please stick to my questions.

 9             So you said most probably that was said.  Was that said to

10     prevent Muslims and Croats from joining the brigade?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably somebody who was

12     trying to spread such a rumour, and misinformation spreads quickly most

13     often.  Such people tried to achieve that.  Rather, they didn't want to

14     have Muslims and Croats join the brigade.  However, I did not do that

15     because I suggested that that kind of brigade be established.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not writing about rumours but you presented

17     for a fact that it was said, "to prevent Muslims and Croats from joining

18     the brigade."

19             Do I understand that that's not what you know happened or that it

20     was just rumours?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rumours that were heard

22     on the ground.  Now whether they came from Serbs or Muslims or ...

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you,

24     Witness, you have answered my question.

25             We'll take a break.  We'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.  We take

Page 34434

 1     the break.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we check whether the videolink is functioning

 5     well?

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can see --

 7     see and hear you clearly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The same is true from this side.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Colonel Basara, during your discussions -- your questions from

12     Mr. Lukic this morning, you indicated that General Talic did not come to

13     Sanski Most during the time that you were commander of the 6th Brigade;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And during your testimony this morning, you also mentioned that

17     you were present at a meeting of various representatives of the ethnic

18     groups in Sanski Most at the municipal assembly building.  Now, this

19     meeting was on the 20th of May, 1992; correct?

20        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I often attended -- I mean, I

21     don't know which assembly meeting you mean.  Whenever they invited me and

22     when I knew about the session, then I would always attend sessions that

23     were attended by Muslim, Croat and Serbs.

24        Q.   And when you attended at least one of those sessions, do you

25     recall that General Talic was actually present there with you?

Page 34435

 1        A.   No, I do not recall.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We'll take a look at a document in connection with this.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P3294, and that's the diary of

 4     Nedjeljko Rasula.  We've discussed Rasula this morning.

 5        Q.   You knew who he was, Mr. Basara; correct?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And he was the president of the municipality of Sanski Most;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. JEREMY:  And could we please go to page 22 in the English,

11     please, and 20 in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Just at the bottom, in the English, we see "meeting 20th of

13     April 1992."  And if we could go to the next page in the English, please.

14             Now, Colonel Basara, focussing your attention on the left side of

15     the page in the original language, we see the date the 20th of April,

16     1992, and we see a list of those persons present at this particular

17     meeting.

18             Do you see General Talic's name listed there?

19        A.   Well, it's written there, General Talic.

20        Q.   And do you see your own name listed there?

21        A.   General Talic ... Colonel Basara.

22        Q.   And seeing your own name there together with General Talic's

23     name, does that refresh your recollection that General Talic did, in

24     fact, visit the municipality of Sanski Most and also attend at least one

25     meeting in the municipality building with you?

Page 34436

 1        A.   I don't remember any of that.  I tried to remember because I read

 2     certain things, but I simply could not remember.  It would be natural if

 3     he was in Sanski Most for him to come to the brigade command as well.

 4     But, again, as I've said, I don't remember that at all.  I remember this

 5     one meeting that was attended by Lieutenant-Colonel Talic, his first name

 6     is Mustafa or something like that.  And somehow I seem to think that

 7     they've confused him with General Talic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, earlier, page 75, you referred to the

 9     20th of May, whereas now, was that a slip of the tongue?

10             MR. JEREMY:  That was a slip of the tongue.  Thank you for

11     correcting me, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That is hereby then corrected.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. JEREMY:

15        Q.   Mr. Basara, Colonel Basara, just to understand your last answer,

16     is it your understanding that this -- this record of the -- of this

17     meeting is incorrect in so far as it refers to General Talic and you

18     think it should be referring to a different Talic.  Is that your

19     recollection of the meeting?

20        A.   I don't recall that meeting at all, and I cannot remember

21     General Talic being there at all.  As for this other one, I eventually

22     did remember him, but I don't remember about General Talic.

23        Q.   Now, you were actually asked about this meeting during your

24     testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, and you indicated that

25     General Talic was present at this meeting because it was part of his work

Page 34437

 1     as commander to inspect units and to maintain contact with the leadership

 2     of Sanski Most.  Would you provide that same answer today?

 3        A.   I don't remember that at all.  That statement of mine.  That

 4     testimony of mine.  That I claimed anything like that.

 5        Q.   Let's take a quick look at that.  Just -- it might refresh your

 6     recollection.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31875.  That's

 8     Colonel Basara's testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case.  If we

 9     could please go to page 24.  And, sorry, if we could go back one page

10     just to establish the meeting, it's the same meeting we're now talking

11     about.

12        Q.   So we see at -- and Colonel Basara, there isn't a translation of

13     this document for you so I'd ask you to listen closely to my words.

14             We see at line 15 that the questioning lawyer is asking you to

15     look at a record of a meeting that was apparently held on the 20th of

16     April with yourself and General Talic and members of the civilian

17     authorities.

18             MR. JEREMY:  If we go to the next page, please.

19        Q.   And you were asked about members present.  You -- you actually

20     indicated that whereas there's a reference to a Major Zekaj, it should be

21     a reference to Zeljaja.

22             Now it says representatives of the SDS, SDA and HDZ.

23             MR. JEREMY:  If we could just scroll up a little bit, please.

24        Q.   Now, "Was this the only meeting before the take-over that took

25     place where General Talic attended?"

Page 34438

 1             Your answer was as follows:  "I think it was the only one

 2     attended by General Talic but I can hardly remember what was discussed

 3     and how the meeting ran.

 4             "Q.  I'm just going to ask you about two matters.  But that was

 5     only one attended by General Talic, can you remember why General Talic

 6     had come to Sanski Most that day?

 7             "A.  Well, it was part of his work as commander to inspect units

 8     and to maintain contact with the leadership of the municipality in

 9     Sanski Most."

10             My question to you now, Colonel Basara, is:  Having listened to

11     me reading your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case does that

12     refresh your recollection about this meeting and your knowledge about

13     General Talic's presence at this particular meeting.

14        A.   I hope you can believe me that I don't remember anything from

15     that meeting.  I even gave this some thought and I cannot link all of

16     that up, that he was at this meeting, that I was at that meeting.  So

17     that meeting probably did not remain in my memory.

18        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.  Would you agree with me that when you

19     testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case six years ago, your memory

20     would have been fresher?

21        A.   I was six years younger, and it is likely that I could remember

22     some things then that I couldn't remember now, so that would be my answer

23     more or less.

24        Q.   Now, do you also remember and I'm asking you to reach further

25     back to 2002 but on the topic of the municipality building that -- that

Page 34439

 1     was attacked in -- on the 19th of April, 1992, you were asked about

 2     whether you considered that attack to be illegal, and you indicated that

 3     you did, indeed, consider the attack on the municipality building to be

 4     illegal.

 5             Would you give the same answer today?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I'd like to see where it says that I said so.

 7     That it was an illegal attack.

 8             Speaking from this position today, I think it was the Serbs'

 9     right to regain possession of the municipal building.  It had been agreed

10     they remain in the municipal building and that the Muslims go to the

11     premises of a company.  The same goes for their MUP.  Instead, they took

12     over the municipal building.  So perhaps there was some kind of

13     misinterpretation on somebody's part, in terms of me saying that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We have an opportunity to check that, Witness.  If

15     there's any doubt about it, then it will be done.

16             Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber would appreciate if it would be verified

17     whether that's really what the witness had said during that interview.

18     That's one.

19             Second, let's not spend too much time on it because it's not

20     testimony of fact but, rather, opinion.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             And actually I will move on but I would like to tender the

24     transcript page from the Stanisic and Zupljanin testimony that we just

25     saw while the witness didn't dispute what was -- his answers, he didn't

Page 34440

 1     actually confirm them so I would like to tender this particular page.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the number would be P7320.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             And about his interview, Mr. Jeremy, what would you like to do

 6     with that.  You read it to him and, of course, in all fairness to the

 7     Defence and to the witness, it should be verified whether -- really,

 8     perhaps the parties could stipulate on whether that was said.

 9             May I take it has been audio recorded as at least.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, my understanding that there is an audio record.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No video record.

12             MR. JEREMY:  No, I don't think there's a video record.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite the parties to sit together and see

14     whether they can verify whether the written text corresponds with the

15     audio.

16             Witness, it will be verified whether what was read to you as part

17     of your statement, whether those were words you really uttered at the

18     time.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Mr. Basara, I'd look to move on now to a different topic and

22     that's the topic of the strategic objectives which you make mention of in

23     your statement.

24             Now, you say in paragraph 19 of your statement that you were not

25     at the meeting which formulated the six strategic objectives for the Serb

Page 34441

 1     people on the 12th of May, 1992.  You were instead at a meeting after the

 2     liberation of Jajce.

 3             Now, the meeting regarding the six strategic objectives that you

 4     refer to here is the -- the 16th Assembly Session that was held in

 5     Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992; correct?

 6        A.   I don't recall at all when it was held, and I don't know in which

 7     statement I referred to it.

 8        Q.   It's all right, sir.  Paragraph 19 of the statement that you've

 9     provided to this Chamber that you have sworn to the truth of today, you

10     state as follows:  "I was not at the meeting which formulated the six

11     strategic objectives for the Serb people.  On 12 May 1992, I was at a

12     meeting after the liberation of Jajce."

13             Just so you understand that's what prompted me to mention that

14     you mentioned the six strategic objectives in your statement.

15             Now, while you were not at that meeting, you were, nevertheless,

16     at another meeting two days after the 16th Assembly Session, namely, on

17     the 14th of May, where the strategic objectives were discussed.  That's

18     correct, isn't it?

19        A.   Where did the assembly session take place?

20        Q.   The assembly session was discussed the strategic objectives was

21     in Banja Luka on 12th of May.  I understand that you have said that you

22     weren't there, and I don't disputes that.  What I'm asking you is:  Were

23     you present at a meeting in Kljuc on the 14th of May where you discussed,

24     among other things, the six strategic objectives?

25        A.   I came to Kljuc to attend a meeting, but when we started it, a

Page 34442

 1     battalion was being sent from Kljuc to a theatre of war and they were

 2     firing in the street.  So much so that we couldn't keep working.  Then

 3     the municipal assembly president, Mr. Banjac turned to General Galic who,

 4     at the time was colonel and commanded a division, asking him to go out

 5     and tell the people to stop shooting so that we could go on with our

 6     work?  He didn't want to go out.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   Can I explain?  And I went out to put a stop to that shooting.

 9        Q.   Now --

10        A.   Therefore, I missed most of that meeting.

11        Q.   And that was a meeting you say that was attended by Banjac of --

12     president of the Kljuc municipality and also Colonel Galic.  You do

13     remember the meeting; yes?

14        A.   I do remember coming there and attending it at the beginning, but

15     I had to leave to stop the battalion from shooting further because we

16     could not conduct our work.  I spoke to the soldiers and only returned at

17     the end.  I heard a couple of things, but other than that I had no idea

18     that they were discussing any strategic goals.

19        Q.   Let's take a look at that meeting and see if it refreshes your

20     recollection.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P2867.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P2 ...

23             MR. JEREMY:  867.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. JEREMY:

Page 34443

 1        Q.   So, Colonel Basara we see there's stamp on right side, top right

 2     side of the document dated the 14th of May.  We see that it's a meeting

 3     with presidents of municipalities in the zone of responsibility of the

 4     division.  We see that the meeting lasted for two hours, 45 minutes, and

 5     we see the agenda.  Agenda item 3 is:  "Messages from the meeting on the

 6     armed services [sic] of Serbian Krajina and the Army of the Serbian

 7     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Banja Luka on the 12th of

 8     May 1992."

 9             And we see those attendees of the meeting, the first one is

10     Colonel Galic, who you've mentioned already and the second one is

11     yourself, Colonel Basara, and we see at number 5, there's a reference to

12     a Jovo Banjac.  So that's the same meeting that you've already mentioned;

13     correct?

14        A.   What I do remember is only what was discussed.  As I said, it was

15     a long time ago.  I can't remember everything, but I do remember that I

16     had to leave the meeting to stop the battalion from shooting and that I

17     stayed outside for a while because the fighters were interested in many

18     issues --

19        Q.   Sir --

20        A.   So I spoke to them --

21        Q.   Sir, you say you remember what was discussed and I'd like to show

22     you a part of the minutes of the that meeting to see if you remember

23     discussion of that particular part.

24             Could we go to page 3 in this document.

25        A.   I don't remember.

Page 34444

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be an issue there.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  There is an issue from the translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  From the logic of the sentence the witness spoke -

 5     let me just - one second, please.

 6             The witness said, "What I do remember is what was discussed.  As

 7     I said, it was a long time ago.  I can't remember everything but I do

 8     remember that I had to leave."

 9             Now that may at least hint at a possible error.  It's not very

10     logic.  Could you please seek verification of that answer before you move

11     on.

12             MR. JEREMY:

13        Q.   Well, sir, simply I'll ask you the question, the document

14     indicates that there was a discussion of the strategic goals that were

15     articulated at the municipal assembly meeting in Banja Luka on the 12th

16     of May, 1992.

17             My question is:  Do you recall the discussion of those six

18     strategic goals at this meeting.

19        A.   I don't.  I have no recollection --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We couldn't hear the

21     witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat what you said after:  I have

23     no recollection.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember at all what was

25     discussed at the meeting.  I can't make any connection between the

Page 34445

 1     strategic goals and the meeting itself.

 2             MR. JEREMY:

 3        Q.   Sir, two very short questions.  You were, however, aware of the

 4     six strategic goals; correct?

 5        A.   Pardon?  No, I don't recall the strategic goals at all.

 6        Q.   So --

 7        A.   Although I may have mentioned them somewhere, but I don't

 8     remember anything in terms of content.

 9        Q.   So is it your position that while you were brigade commander in

10     Sanski Most, you were not aware of the six strategic goals?  Is that your

11     position?

12        A.   I was not aware of it.  At least to the best of my recollection.

13        Q.   And is it therefore also your position that these were not

14     disseminated to units within your brigade?

15        A.   I wasn't aware of their being forwarded to the units.  It would

16     have been very difficult to distribute it to the units which were not in

17     one place.  Many people were there their homes.  If anyone was informed

18     of anything, it could only have been partial and could take -- have taken

19     place in battalion commands and brigade commands.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Let's leave it there for today.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we adjourn, I have one question,

22     because it's not entirely clear to me, are you saying that today you have

23     no recollection of the six strategic goals, or that you never had any

24     knowledge of the six strategic goals and their contents.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I can't remember right now, I

Page 34446

 1     can't tell you whether I knew anything about the strategic objectives at

 2     the time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to

 4     see you back tomorrow morning, and I take it local time is the same as it

 5     is here, that is, at 9.30.  But before you leave the videolink room, I'd

 6     like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or communicate

 7     in whatever way about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have

 8     already given or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.

 9             Is that clear to you?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Just before the witness leaves.  I would kindly ask

13     you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's too late, obviously.  I wanted Mr. Ram to be

16     notified that somebody should organise transportation for Mr. Basara

17     tomorrow, at least, since we cannot see him.  We organized his

18     transportation this morning.  My people from Belgrade, from my office

19     cannot do it anymore.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I take it telephone conversation with the ...

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  VWS will also look into the matter.  That's what

23     Madam Registrar tells me.

24             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow -- oh.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 34447

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that the videolink is still functioning

 2     so if there's anything about transportation which you would like to

 3     convey to the witness, Mr. Lukic, then we have an opportunity to do so

 4     right away.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I would just like to inform Mr. Basara that

 6     Sasa Lukic is not able to transport him tomorrow to the same location, so

 7     we will try to find a solution through VWS.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness -- everyone will work hard in order to

 9     make sure that you will be transported to the videolink location tomorrow

10     morning.

11             Then we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the 21st

12     of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same Courtroom I, and we'll then

13     continue the videolink.

14             We stand adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of April,

17                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.