Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34623

 1                           Thursday, 23 April 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue, I'd like to verify whether the videolink is

12     functioning well.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.  Good morning,

14     Your Honours.  Yes, we can hear and see you clearly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We can hear and see you as well.

16             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination, and I inform

17     the parties that in view of the absence of Mr. Mladic that we'll have

18     sessions of one hour and a half and a longer break then.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, before I start this morning if I could

20     just tender the last three documents from yesterday.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you remind us which they were.

22             MR. TRALDI:  65 ter 18365, 18366, 12842.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the numbers would be.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 18365 receives number P7328.

25             18366 receives number P7329.

Page 34624

 1             And 12842 receives number P7330.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P7328, P7329, and P7330 are admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, just very briefly there's one

 4     translation matter that may arise with a document that I'll use this

 5     session.  Mr. Stojanovic and I are in agreement about it and I'll just

 6     note if it arises.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8                           WITNESS:  GRUJO BORIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           [Witness testified via videolink]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

12        Q.   Good morning, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But before we continue, Mr. Boric, I'd like to

14     remind that you you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

15     at the beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the

16     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Sir, I'm going to start today with your first meeting with

20     General Mladic in Petrovac.  Yesterday, you said he was addressing a

21     meeting there and you testified it was in April 1991.  This meeting, in

22     fact, was in April 1992; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And at this meeting General Mladic told the assembled leaders in

25     Petrovac municipality, among other things, to prepare for war and for

Page 34625

 1     defence; right?

 2        A.   His words were uttered in that sense, given the fact that he had

 3     already seen war in Knin.

 4        Q.   And when he's talking about -- when he was talking about

 5     preparing for war, the enemy then would be the Muslims; right?

 6        A.   Yes.  And Croats.

 7        Q.   And once you became corps commander, you would speak with

 8     General Mladic every morning; right?

 9        A.   Not exactly every morning.

10        Q.   Well, can we have 65 ter 32422, page 90.  This is a portion of

11     your suspect interview with the Office of the Prosecutor.

12             And at the end of your first answer, you say:  "I would speak to

13     General Mladic every morning between 7.00 and 8.00 a.m. and I would just

14     say, Boss, everything is fine, if it was fine.  If it wasn't ..."

15             And then in your next answer, you explain the problems would be

16     included in your report.

17             Do you stand by this portion of your interview with the Office of

18     the Prosecutor?

19        A.   I had occasion to speak to him every morning, if needed, but I'm

20     not certain that we actually did speak every morning.  Because I wasn't

21     at the command post all the time.  I also toured my units, and when

22     possible, I would be in communication with him.  In any case, whatever I

23     said, I stand by it.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm not entirely clear from your answer.  Is it right that

25     you're adopting now your statement in your interview that you would speak

Page 34626

 1     to him every morning between 7.00 and 8.00?

 2        A.   We didn't speak every morning.  I can't accept that.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that a number be reserved for

 4     portions of the interview.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you reserve a number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the number to reserve is P7331.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and will deal with excerpts from the witness

 8     interview.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   And regarding the 2nd Krajina Corps and you yourself, Mladic was

11     always aware of what was going on; right.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You described yesterday the reporting by the 2nd Krajina Corps to

14     the Main Staff.  General Mladic would review those reports, and every

15     second or third day, a representative of the Main Staff would be sent to

16     the corps command; right?

17        A.   Well, not every second or third day.  Not as often.  Let's say

18     once or twice every month, and, if needed, it was more frequent.  That

19     was the frequency of visits of representatives of the Main Staff to the

20     2nd Corps.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32422, page 87.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's P7331, reserved.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Your Honour.  Yes, P7331.

24        Q.   Now, beginning in the middle of the page, you were asked:

25     "... every day, you have to know that every day we had to send the report

Page 34627

 1     to the Main Staff by 1800 hours of everything that happened in the AOR

 2     that day.  Based on that, the command of the Main Staff had, used to send

 3     his subordinates to visit the corps.  And ... they would spend two or

 4     three days in the corps and once they were done they'd submit the report

 5     to the Main Staff command.  So every second or third day, we had a

 6     representative, some representative of the Main Staff in the corps."

 7             So my first question is:  Do you stand by this portion of your

 8     interview as truthful and accurate?

 9        A.   One could say so.

10        Q.   At the moment, sir, I'm interested in whether you say so today.

11     Do you stand by this portion of your interview as truthful and accurate?

12        A.   I would say that everything is accurate except for the fact that

13     "every day" someone came to the corps from the Main Staff.

14        Q.   And --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, your introduction to the portion you

16     read reads you were asked, but it was not the question, but the response

17     by the person named GB.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And between that and the complete text I may have

19     create add small amount of confusion which I'll try to rectify now,

20     Your Honour.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Sir, "every day" in your previous interview referred to the

22     reporting.  What it says here is:  "Based on that, the command of the

23     Main Staff had used to send his subordinates to visit the corps and then

24     they would spent two or three days in the corps and once they were done,

25     they'd submit the report to the Main Staff command.  So every second or

Page 34628

 1     third day, we had a representative, some representative of the Main Staff

 2     in the corps."

 3             The portion that I have just read out to you now, do you today

 4     stand by that as truthful and accurate, yes or no?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And was that the case throughout the war?

 7        A.   No.  It didn't take place every two or three days.  Perhaps every

 8     fortnight.  It all depended on the situation at the front.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'll ask to include this page in the

10     excerpts.

11        Q.   General Mladic, because of his visits and the Main Staff visits,

12     knew all the brigade commanders and all the brigade commands in your

13     corps; right?

14        A.   He knew all the brigade commanders, but I can't say that he knew

15     each and every officer in the brigade commands.

16        Q.   Now, the combat operations planned by your corps were planned in

17     response to larger directives from the Main Staff; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You'd gather your staff in the operations centre, inform them of

20     the Main Staff's order, and then draft your own order on that basis to

21     send to subordinate units; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And your brigade commanders never launched an offensive operation

24     without your approval that you know of; right?

25        A.   That is also true.

Page 34629

 1        Q.   Communications from the Main Staff were sent to your corps'

 2     operations centre; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, we're going to pull up one document in Sanction now, 65 ter

 5     23429, and I'd just ask to you say "yes" when you can see it on your

 6     screen there.

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Mr. Traldi, I'm sorry, we can see

 8     the document but it is not legible.  The witness cannot read it and we

 9     don't have it on the DVD provided.

10             MR. TRALDI:  It arises out of one answer he provided yesterday.

11     Can we zoom in on the date in the top left corner.  I won't be asking him

12     to refer to any text.

13        Q.   Do you see that the date is the 20th of May, 1992?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   And turning to the end in both languages, the end of the

16     document.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we can see the second language, please.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I'm told we can only play one in Sanction at a time.

19     And because it's just the dates, Your Honour, that I'm referring to.

20        Q.   Now, at the end, we see a receipt stamp from the 10th Corps

21     operations centre.  Can you also see the date, the 20th of May, 1992

22     there?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we centralise the stamp.

24        A.   I see it.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 34630

 1        Q.   Now, at the time the 10th Corps operations stamp would have

 2     referred to your operations centre, the one that had previously been the

 3     operations centre of the 10th Corps of the JNA; right?

 4        A.   I don't understand the question.

 5        Q.   That stamp that shows it was received by the 10th Corps

 6     operations centre on the 20th of May, 1992, that's your operations

 7     centre; right?

 8        A.   It is the operations centre of the 10th Corps.

 9        Q.   And at the time, that's your corps; right?

10        A.   I was then appointed as corps commander to a corps that didn't

11     exist practically speaking.  All the units that were in Croatian

12     territory remained there.  Only some soldiers and officers, as well as

13     some assets, were pulled out to the territory of Petrovac.  At that time

14     I had not been appointed the commander of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

15        Q.   Sir, the pull-out to Petrovac was from Bihac, right, as you

16     testified yesterday?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   What I'm putting to you very simply is yesterday I showed you a

19     document from the VRS Main Staff dated 19th of May.  You suggested in

20     your answer that you were not receiving information from the Main Staff

21     until the 23rd.  What I'm putting to you is:  Your corps was clearly

22     receiving information from the Main Staff the same day it was sent, no

23     later than the 20th of May; right?

24        A.   I can't recall whether the centre existed in the first place

25     although I see the stamp.  We moved out and there was no command in place

Page 34631

 1     except for the units which reached the sector of Petrovac.  They were the

 2     units I commanded.  I had no communication with the JNA staff, and there

 3     was no communication with the Main Staff at the time.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 23429.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7332.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is there a translation uploaded, Mr. Traldi?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for -- to know for sure.  We haven't seen it

11     yet.  But P7332 is admitted.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Now, yesterday, sir, at transcript page 34593, you testified that

14     you didn't know that there was a Crisis Staff in any of the

15     municipalities in your area of responsibility.  Now, in your suspect

16     interview, you mentioned that a representative of the VRS always had to

17     be on each municipality's Crisis Staff.

18             First, does that refresh your recollection as to whether you knew

19     such Crisis Staffs existed in your area of responsibility?

20        A.   I did not state that, that there was a VRS representative on the

21     Crisis Staff.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23        A.   At no municipality was there a representative of the

24     2nd Krajina Corps ...

25        Q.   Let's have 65 ter 32422, page 148, as it comes up, sir, what I'm

Page 34632

 1     suggest to that you is a representative at the brigade level was on each

 2     municipality's Crisis Staff, not from the corps command.

 3             And you were asked here in the middle of the page by Mr. Grady.

 4     "We know from investigating many municipal Crisis Staffs and regional

 5     Crisis Staffs that it was very common for a commander of the -- of the

 6     brigades to be a member of the Crisis Staffs [sic]."

 7             You answer:  "A representative of the army always had to be

 8     there."

 9             And he asks you:  "Why was that?  Was that a policy that was

10     established by the SDS in agreement with the army?

11             And you answer:  "No, this was according to our rules, even at

12     peacetime, that these staffs would be attended by -- had to be attended

13     by a representative of the military."

14             Now do you stand by your portion of your interview as truthful

15     and accurate today?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not accurate.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the very

20     end of the witness's answer.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your explanation as to why your previous

23     answer was not accurate.

24        A.   It is not truthful.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 34633

 1        A.   If you believe --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   Please do not interrupt me.  Please do not interrupt me.  If

 4     you're asking me to answer, do not interrupt.

 5             There's nothing else to say on my part.  It is not true.  The

 6     commander -- the brigade commander did not have any links with the

 7     municipal president.  I don't know whether the municipal president would

 8     come to the Crisis Staff, but the brigade commander was aware of the

 9     issues being worked on at a particular moment in the municipalities.

10        Q.   So it's your evidence that you incorrectly and untruthfully

11     stated 11 years ago that representatives of the army always had to be

12     present at Crisis Staff meetings; is that right?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  Could

15     the witness kindly take his earphones off.  I'd like to point to an issue

16     in the transcript that was indicated to me.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the witness has done so.  Please proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 11, sorry.  Page 11, line

19     4, apparently something contradicting what the witness said was entered.

20     What was entered that there was no communication between the brigade

21     commander and the municipal president, whereas the witness said they were

22     always in contact.  Which can cause confusion.  Perhaps my learned

23     friend, the Prosecutor, could clear this up with the witness.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to follow Mr. Stojanovic's suggestion.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness put his -- put on his earphones

Page 34634

 1     again.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   First, sir, is it correct that you testified a moment ago - and

 4     this is just a matter for the transcript - that the brigade commander and

 5     the municipal president were always in contact?

 6        A.   That is correct.  They were in the same territory and they were

 7     in contact all the time.  Directly.

 8        Q.   And, second, just to make sure I understand your answers

 9     regarding the relationship between the brigade and the Crisis Staff, it's

10     your evidence today that you inaccurately and untruthfully stated in your

11     interview that a representative of the VRS always had to attend

12     Crisis Staff meetings.  Is that right?

13        A.   I would like to see where it is that I stated that.  If it is

14     written down, I'd like to see that here.  Not a single representative of

15     the army was on the Crisis Staff.  Not in a single municipality.  And

16     also no representative of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  Not in a single

17     municipality.  Not in a single Crisis Staff.  I firmly stand by that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it will be read to you again.  It is not

19     available in your language, but if need be, we could verify whether this

20     is what you said, because there's an audio recording of this interview.

21     So therefore if you say, I didn't say it, then we'll verify that.  And if

22     you -- if it's read again to, if you would say, Yes, I may have said

23     that, please tell us.

24             Could you read again the portion you're focussing on, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 34635

 1        Q.   Mr. Grady asks:  "We know from investigating many municipal

 2     Crisis Staffs and regional Crisis Staffs that it was very common for a

 3     commander of the -- of the brigades to be a member of the Crisis Staff."

 4             You respond:  "A representative of the army always had to be

 5     there."

 6             You're then asked:  "Why was that?  Was that a policy that was

 7     established by the SDS in agreement with the army? "

 8             You respond:  "No.  This was according to our rules," you say,

 9     "even at peacetime, that these staffs would be attended by -- had to be

10     attended by a representative of the military."

11             So, again, do you say, yes, you may have said?  Do you say, I

12     didn't say that?  Do you recall making that statement in your OTP

13     interview?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to be cautioned,

17     so, again, could I kindly ask that the witness take off his earphones for

18     a moment.

19             I do apologise to you, General.

20             I would like the Trial Chamber to approve of that.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, could I just verify with the

23     representative of the Registry in the videolink room, if the witness

24     takes off his earphones, is there any way, he could, nevertheless, hear

25     what Mr. Stojanovic is saying now?

Page 34636

 1             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, no, there's no way

 2     that he can hear.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6             I now object to the question because this is a mis-citation.  The

 7     transcript does not reflect at all that the witness said that somebody

 8     from the brigade was a member of the Crisis Staff.  The concept of Crisis

 9     Staff was used --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end of

11     Mr. Stojanovic's answer.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, what Mr. Traldi read, that is,

13     attending those meetings, is -- I would agree with you, is slightly

14     different from the language used before to be a member of the Crisis

15     Staff.  But the way in which the question was phrased is accurate and

16     correct.

17             Therefore, the objection is denied.

18             Could the witness put on his earphones again.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, I know it's been a moment.  Do you recall the portion of

21     your interview that I've now read to you twice?

22        A.   I can tell you that in the Crisis Staff it was not obligatory to

23     have a representative of the military.  However, when certain meetings

24     were held a representative of the army would be invited and a

25     representative would attend.  I allow for that.  I allow that I said

Page 34637

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but could we then go back to the question that

 3     was put to you, whether what was read to you, whether that is what you

 4     said during the interview.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not fully.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because you keep telling me that it

 8     is obligatory for a member of the military to be on the Crisis Staff,

 9     which is not correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm not putting that to you.  I'm asking

11     you whether what was read by Mr. Traldi, read being your words during the

12     interview, whether you acknowledge that you used those words or that you

13     deny or dispute that you used that language when you were interviewed.

14     I'm not asking you at this moment how it was, but I'm asking exclusively

15     on whether that is what you said during the interview.

16             Could you answer that question?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by what I said just now.  I

18     cannot say anything different.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you again:  Whether the words read out to

20     you reflects what you said during your interview.  Apart from whether you

21     stand by it, but just whether that is what you said.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Now the Chamber has received evidence that, for instance,

Page 34638

 1     Bosko Lukic was on the Crisis Staff in Kljuc.  He was a member of the

 2     17th Brigade in your corps; right?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, in view of the previous answer of the

 5     witness, the Chamber would appreciate if you, together with the Defence,

 6     would verify whether the transcript of the interview is accurate and

 7     whether those words were spoken by the witness, yes or no.  And an

 8     agreement between the parties would do.  If there's any dispute, we'll

 9     hear.

10             MR. TRALDI:  We'll do that, Mr. President.  And that page may be

11     reflected in the excerpts we seek to tender, depending on the outcome.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that if the accuracy issue has been

13     resolved that you make it part of the excerpt.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Now, sir, you discussed a moment ago whether members of your

17     brigades attended meetings of the Crisis Staff.  You opined whether it

18     was obligatory for them to be on the Crisis Staff.  Is it correct that by

19     this point your recollection is refreshed as to whether Crisis Staffs

20     existed in the municipalities in your area of responsibility?

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   In fact, you sometimes attended Crisis Staff meetings yourself,

23     didn't you?

24        A.   No.  These were not Crisis Staffs.

25        Q.   Can we have --

Page 34639

 1        A.   If -- please allow me to finish.

 2        Q.   Sir, you've answered my question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness.  Witness.  Witness.  Witness, I'll

 4     stop you there.  If --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are interrupting me all the

 6     time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm interrupting you and for good reasons,

 8     Mr. Boric.  If you've answered the question that you do not know a

 9     certain thing and you say that these are not Crisis Staffs, that is

10     accepted by Mr. Traldi as an answer to his question, and he may then put

11     his next question to you.  He is entitled to do that.  So please do not

12     again say that you should not be interrupted.  If you're interrupted

13     unfairly, I'll intervene -- witness.  Witness.  Witness, if you're

14     talking about interrupting, that's what you're doing at this moment

15     yourself.  If the interruption would be unfair to you, I'll intervene.

16     If, at the end of your testimony there's something you would like to add

17     or say this where I was interrupted is important and I still want to

18     bring it to your attention, you'll have an opportunity to do so.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 08917.

21        Q.   These are the minutes of the 23rd Session of the Petrovac

22     Municipality Crisis Staff.  At the top, we see a list of persons present.

23     The next-to-last name is Colonel Boric, Commander of the 2nd Krajina

24     Corps.  You did, in fact, have occasion to attend Crisis Staff meetings

25     yourself, didn't you?

Page 34640

 1        A.   Probably I attended that meeting.  Had I known that -- or,

 2     rather, that I knew that that was called the Crisis Staff, I really had

 3     no idea.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender the document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 08917 receives number P7333.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence; P7333.

10             Witness, you've told us now quite a few things, including that

11     you may have attended this meeting of the Crisis Staff.  You told us that

12     other meetings may not have been meetings of Crisis Staffs.  Yesterday

13     you said you weren't aware of the existence of a Crisis Staff or Crisis

14     Staffs.

15             That clearly contradicts, and I would ask you to be very precise

16     in both listening to the question and in your answers.  Because from

17     today's testimony, it appears that you were aware of the existence of

18     Crisis Staffs.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Now, aside from co-operating with the civilian authorities, the

22     brigades in your corps also co-operated with the civilian police; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And the chief of police would also be on the Crisis Staff; right?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 34641

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32422, page 235.  32422, and this

 2     again is the OTP interview.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P7331.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'll try to get the P number right next time.  Thank

 5     you, Your Honour.

 6             Page 235.

 7        Q.   Now at the very bottom of the page, you were asked:  "... not

 8     only is a brigade commander is a member of the Crisis Staff, but in the

 9     municipalities, the chief of police or his designate is also a member of

10     the Crisis Staff or War Presidency?"

11             Turning to the top of the next page, we read your answer:  "It

12     was the chief of police who was usually -- not usually but had to be," we

13     read "opt Crisis Staff."

14             Do you stand by your portion of your interview as truthful and

15     accurate?

16        A.   You see that the president of the municipality Novakovic invited

17     me to a meeting.  And at that meeting there were all of his co-workers.

18     Now what their name was, were they a Crisis Staff --

19             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, I

20     interrupt you again.  A portion was read to you from what you said during

21     the interview; that is, about the chief of police and his relation with

22     the Crisis Staff.  Do you stand by what you said then?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe he was.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's still not an answer to my question, but let's

25     move on.

Page 34642

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Turning to the bottom of this page --

 3        A.   The question was whether the chief of police was on the Crisis

 4     Staff.  And I said that I did not know, and --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm interrupting you again.  That was not

 6     the question I put to you and listen carefully to the next question that

 7     will be put to you.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Continuing with the topic of co-operation between the brigades in

10     your corps and the police, the bottom of the page you were asked about

11     that co-operation.  You were asked:  "That's left to the local commanders

12     dealing with their local SJBs then?"

13             And you answer:  "Yes.  That's exactly right because, for

14     instance, in Petrovac the brigade commander is in direct" -- and we turn

15     to the next page:  "... connection -- direct communication with local

16     chief of the MUP in his zone."

17             Do you stand by that answer that you provided as truthful and

18     accurate?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And would it be fair to say to that your recollection of events

21     was fresher in 2004 than it is today?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   I'm going to turn now to when Kljuc entered your area of

24     responsibility.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P5137.

Page 34643

 1        Q.   Now, this is your organisational order for the formation of the

 2     units of the 2nd Krajina Corps dated the 2nd of June, 1992.  Turning to

 3     page 7 in the English and 6 in the B/C/S, at point 12, we see a reference

 4     to the 17th Kljuc Brigade.  So it's clear that as of the 2nd of June,

 5     1992, you were at the very least ordering the formation of a brigade in

 6     Kljuc; correct?

 7        A.   The 2nd Krajina Corps received an order from the Main Staff on

 8     the 3rd of July, 1992 to have the 17th Kljuc Brigade become part of the

 9     2nd Krajina Corps.

10             Now what you asked just now, I presume that that is correct.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm putting to you that this, in fact, happened in early

12     June 1992.  That's the truth; right?

13        A.   I'm waiting to read this here.

14        Q.   We see here your order of the 2nd of June.

15             Let's have 65 ter 31853 next.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness is still looking at the document, he

17     should be allowed to finish what he wishes to read.

18             Although it's mainly about the date, Mr. Boric, that Mr. Traldi

19     asks you questions.  Perhaps if we move to the first page.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Do you see in the top left corner that the date is the 2nd of

22     June?

23        A.   I do.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31853.

25        Q.   Now this is a daily combat report from the 17th Kljuc Light

Page 34644

 1     Infantry Brigade Command to the 2nd Krajina Corps Command dated the 12th

 2     of June, 1992.

 3             Does this refresh your recollection that by the 12th of June,

 4     1992, the 17th Brigade was part of the composition of your corps?

 5        A.   I see the dates, but I also know the date when we received this,

 6     about the establishment of the brigade.  You have that order.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have 65 ter 31854.

 8        Q.   This is a daily combat report from the 17th Brigade the next day,

 9     the 13th of June, 1992.  I'll ask again:  Does this refresh your

10     recollection that no later than the 12th and 13th of June, 1992, the

11     17th Brigade was part of your -- of the composition of your corps and

12     sending daily reports to your corps command?

13        A.   What is written here is probably correct.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31853 and 31854.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 31853 receives number P7334.  And

17     31854 receives number P7335.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P7334 and P7335 are admitted.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 06206.

20        Q.   This is an order for further operations from you, dated the 8th

21     of June, 1992.  Directing your attention to point 2 first, we read:  "The

22     Army of the SRBH has been given the task of offensive operations with the

23     limited aim of repairing the operative-tactic position in the wider

24     region of Sarajevo, in northern and Eastern Bosnia, while at the same

25     time firmly holding the front lines on Serbian peripheral territories and

Page 34645

 1     protecting the Serbian people [sic] from genocide and extinction."

 2             This is an example of what we talked about before you issuing an

 3     order on the basis of a directive from the VRS Main Staff; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in this case, that's Directive 1.  For the record, P474.

 6             Turning to page 2 in both languages --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I think you read the -- "protecting the

 8     Serbian people."

 9             Whereas the original reads "the Serbian population."

10             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Your Honour.  My notes may have been

11     inaccurate.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Turning to page 2, under point 4, we see that one of the things

15     you've decided with a part of the force to control the area and liquidate

16     splintered forces Green Berets in the municipality of Kljuc.  This is

17     because, as of the time you issued this order on 8th of June, Kljuc was

18     in your area of responsibility; right?

19        A.   I cannot see that here.  Over here.  On this slide.

20        Q.   If you look under the word "operaciju izvesti" and you look at

21     the first point third line, you see a reference to Kljuc; right?

22        A.   I see that now.

23        Q.   And you also see one at the top of the page; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you're issuing tasks regarding activities in Kljuc

Page 34646

 1     municipality in this order because by this point, it's part of your area

 2     of responsibility; right?

 3        A.   That is what is written.

 4        Q.   Turn to page 5 in both languages --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not a real answer to your question.

 6             We see that it's written, Witness.  Is it accurate, what

 7     Mr. Traldi said, that this was within your area of responsibility on that

 8     date?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume it is.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is why I'm saying -- may I

12     respond?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think you have responded by saying that you

14     assume that it is.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Now --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At the bottom of this page in the English, and the top in the

20     B/C/S, we read that prisoners take in these operations are to be

21     transported to the 2nd Krajina Corps prisoner of war camp in the

22     elementary school in the village of Kamenica, Drvar.  That's the camp you

23     mentioned yesterday which was under the control of the 2nd Krajina

24     Corps's security organ; right?

25        A.   It was a prison, but, all right, they called it a camp too.  Camp

Page 34647

 1     is a bit broader.  One always means Jasenovac, and there was no such

 2     thing.  It is correct.  There was a prison in Kamenica and Drvar.

 3        Q.   Well, I'm not necessarily comparing it to Jasenovac, sir.  But we

 4     see in this document that you call it a camp; right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And the commander at Kamenica was subordinated to Major Mitrovic;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes, Major Mitrovic was the chief of security, and he was

 9     subordinated to him.

10        Q.   And you say "chief of security."  That's the chief of security in

11     the 2nd Krajina Corps subordinated directly to you; right?

12        A.   Yes, correct.

13        Q.   And it would be the military police responsible for prisoners

14     taken to the camp; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I'd tender this document, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 06206 receives number P7336.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P7336 is admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Traldi, may be my mastering of the English language, but did

21     you intend to say that the military police was responsible for the

22     prisoners to be taken to the camps so, that is, transporting them to the

23     camp or that they were responsible for prisoners that were taken to the

24     camp and therefore were in the camp?  But it may be that my understanding

25     of the English language is not very precise in this respect.

Page 34648

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I suspect that it -- on this occasion it's that my

 2     use of the English language may not have been very precise.  Let me split

 3     the question up.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Now, first, sir, it would have been the responsibility of the

 7     military police to transport the prisoners to the camp in Kamenica;

 8     right?

 9        A.   The subordinate units which had prisoners brought them to Drvar

10     where the prisoners were taken over by the police.  They would screen

11     them and send them onto Banja Luka.

12        Q.   And prisoners held at Kamenica, they were under the

13     responsibility of the military police, weren't they?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Now can we have P3754.

16        Q.   Now this is an order for further operations dated the 25th of

17     June, 1992 by Drago Samardzija, the commander of the 17th Brigade.  He

18     issued this order pursuant to your order that we just saw now, P7336;

19     right?

20        A.   I suppose so.

21        Q.   We see in point 1, he has decided to act jointly with the

22     6th Infantry Brigade.  That's the 1st Krajina Corps unit at the time;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The commander of the 1st Krajina Corps at the time was

Page 34649

 1     General Momir Talic; right?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   And because this operation involved units from both corps, you

 4     had to co-ordinate with General Talic about it; right?

 5        A.   No.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness needs to

 7     repeat the answer because of the quality of sound.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because of the quality of sound - and we hope

 9     that it is better, could you again complete your answer.

10             The question was because this operation involved units from both

11     corps, you had to co-ordinate with General Talic about it; right?

12             And your answer was:  No.

13             Could you tell us what you then added.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the brigade commands

15     co-ordinated it.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   So your evidence today is you wouldn't have had to reach out to

18     General Talic to co-ordinate this operation; is that right?

19        A.   No, no.

20        Q.   Colonel Basara --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I don't understand the answer.  No, it

22     is not right; no, I did not co-ordinate?

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Your answer is no, you didn't co-ordinate with General Talic; is

25     that right?

Page 34650

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   Colonel Basara, the commander of the 6th Brigade, would have

 3     reported to General Talic on the operation, while Colonel Samardzija

 4     would have reported to you; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, if we could have P7331, page 270.  This will be another

 7     portion of your interview.

 8             As it comes up, you and General Talic would both report to

 9     General Mladic about this operation; right?

10        A.   We reported about everything what happened in the 2nd Krajina

11     Corps that day.  Not only about that operation.

12        Q.   Now, you'd been shown this same document and here at line 12, you

13     were asked:  "Okay.  Would you have to co-ordinate with General Talic for

14     this particular operation?"

15             And your answer was:  "Yes.  The representative of the

16     1st Krajina Corps which the corps had appointed the 6th Light Infantry

17     Brigade, Light Brigade and the 1st Krajina Corps Command ordered the

18     6th Brigade to participate in this operation.  And then -- and the

19     commander of the 6th Brigade and Samardzija met and planned together this

20     operation."

21             Do you stand by that portion of your interview as truthful and

22     accurate?

23        A.   The part you just read out is accurate.

24        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence in Colonel Samardzija's

25     order that he ordered the mopping up of terrain including Hripavci and

Page 34651

 1     Krasulje.  The Chamber has received evidence that two days later, the

 2     Kljuc SJB had a list of 103 persons who were detained mostly from

 3     Hripavci and Krasulje that were being held by the Kljuc police.  The

 4     prisoners were immediately or the prisoners were first given over to the

 5     Kljuc police; right?

 6        A.   I am not aware of that.

 7        Q.   The document, the list by the Kljuc police, reflecting 103

 8     prisoners that's P3755, the Chamber has received evidence - P218 - that

 9     103 prisoners from Kljuc were then transported to Manjaca on the 27th of

10     June, 1992.

11             When you've said earlier in the your testimony that prisoners

12     from the 2nd Krajina Corps would at times be transported to Banja Luka,

13     you've been referring to Manjaca camp; right?

14        A.   Probably to a place where they were grouped in Banja Luka.  I

15     don't know whether it was Manjaca or something else.

16        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence, P220, that when the

17     processing of those prisoners at Manjaca was completed, the 1st Krajina

18     Corps's security organ was informed that processing prisoners from Kljuc

19     was hard because:  "They're being brought in massively and in large

20     quantities.  No selections that been made.  They're bringing in those who

21     shouldn't be treated as prisoners of war because they've been picked up

22     from their homes and off their fields."

23             Now that's what happened during these mopping-up operations by

24     the 6th and 17th Brigades.  People were picked up in their homes and on

25     their fields and taken away to be treated as prisoners, even though there

Page 34652

 1     was no legal basis to do so; right?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question, Witness.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a question, but Mr. Traldi will be happy

 5     to repeat it.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   What happened during these operations by the 6th and 17th

 8     brigades --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you have complained about being

10     interrupted.  Would you refrain from interrupting yourself?

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   What happened during these operations by the 6th and 17th

13     Brigades is that people were picked up in their homes and on their fields

14     and taken away to be treated as prisoners even though there was no legal

15     basis to do so.  That's the truth; right?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   So prisoners taken by a brigade in your corps during operations

18     you were aware of, you have no idea as you sit there today more than 20

19     years later whether there was any basis to hold them as prisoners; is

20     that right?

21        A.   I am not familiar with that situation.

22        Q.   I'm going to turn briefly to another topic.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P5186.

24        Q.   You testified yesterday at transcript page 34596 that you did not

25     recall whether Bihac was declared a safe area.  This is a letter from

Page 34653

 1     UNPROFOR to General Mladic expressing "grave concern at the extremely

 2     serious current situation in the SAFE AREA of BIHAC."

 3             Does this refresh your recollection as to whether Bihac was

 4     declared a safe area?

 5        A.   I don't remember that it was declared a safe area because there

 6     was constant engagement from Bihac of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  It was done

 7     from the 27th of June Barracks.

 8        Q.   And do you also not remember having allegations relayed to you

 9     of -- that your forces, 2nd Krajina Corps, were involved in "the

10     unacceptable deliberate destruction of houses and the shelling of parts

11     of Bihac city itself"?

12        A.   I wasn't able to hear the question.

13        Q.   Do you remember having allegations relayed to you that your

14     forces, the 2nd Krajina Corps, were involved in "the unacceptable

15     deliberate destruction of houses and the shelling of parts of Bihac city

16     itself"?

17             Yes or no?

18        A.   The units at positions facing Bihac opened fire at those

19     positions that they were fired from, from within the town.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, I'm -- have to interrupt you.

21     The question was not what happened; but the question was whether you

22     remember that allegations were relayed to you that this happened.  So

23     apart from whether it happened, but did you receive such allegations?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there, and I know what was

25     going on.

Page 34654

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to interrupt you.  For the moment what I'm asking

 3     first is:  We see this letter is sent to General Mladic.  Were these

 4     allegations ever relayed to you by the Main Staff of the VRS?

 5        A.   I don't recall having received a letter like this.

 6        Q.   So I'd put to you that your forces were, in fact, engaged in

 7     deliberate destruction of civilian houses in and around Bihac.  That's

 8     the truth, isn't it?

 9        A.   It is not.  One cannot say that it was deliberate.  It was a

10     response to the fire coming from that direction.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 03447.

12        Q.   This is a letter two days later.  This time sent to

13     President Karadzic.  And I apologise we don't have a translation

14     uploaded.  We read here at the end of the first sentence about reports of

15     deliberate and systematic targeting and destruction of civilian houses by

16     Serb forces in the areas of Bosanska Krupa, Otoko, Dornja, Pokoj and

17     Bihac.  As of this time, the 3rd of March, 1994, those areas were within

18     your area of responsibility; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you did not, again, receive any information from the

21     Main Staff that these allegations had been made to the Bosnian Serb

22     leadership?

23        A.   No.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be marked

25     for identification pending a translation.

Page 34655

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7337.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P7337 is marked for identification.

 4             Next time if you introduce a letter to a witness where there's no

 5     translation you should at least explain to the witness whose letter it

 6     was, addressed to whom, that is.  But since the witness testified that

 7     there were no allegations, you said to whom it was addressed, but I don't

 8     think -- you say it was an UNPROFOR letter or ...

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I didn't, and I'll make sure to next time,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Sir, as corps commander you agree you were responsible for the

14     forces under your command; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And, for instance, you received instructions from the Main Staff

17     on the criteria for criminal punishment for soldiers; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Those instructions said, among other things, that if you don't

20     properly deal with crimes by your subordinates, that crime is on their

21     commander too; right?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The record does not show the witness's response to

23     your previous question, Mr. Traldi.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the commander finds about it and

25     doesn't do anything about it, then correct -- it is correct.

Page 34656

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   And the military courts and the military prosecution, those were

 3     under General Gvero's authority; right?

 4        A.   I suppose it was the case.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32447.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Now, this is a dispatch from the Main Staff military prosecutor's

 9     office on the institution of criminal proceedings against persons who

10     have not responded to the call-up or left units without authorisation.

11             If we can have page 5 in the English and 3 in the B/C/S, we see

12     General Gvero is issuing this to the military prosecutor's offices

13     attached to the 1st Krajina Corps, the SRK, the IBK and the

14     Herzegovina Corps.  And we don't a mention of the military prosecutor's

15     office attached to the 2 KK because, in fact, the 1st Krajina Corps

16     military prosecutor's office had jurisdiction over the 2 KK; right?

17        A.   That is correct.  In the 2nd Krajina Corps, there was a lawyer

18     who worked for the needs of the 1st Krajina Corps in terms of what was

19     necessary regarding this issue.

20        Q.   And General Gvero is directing that criminal proceedings be

21     instituted against people not responding to the call-up because the

22     military courts had jurisdiction over those subject to military

23     obligations; right?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   A number of your subordinates have been convicted of committing

Page 34657

 1     crimes against humanity and war crimes against non-Serbs during the war

 2     after the war in the courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You are aware of

 3     that; right?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that.  Who are those officers or soldiers?

 5        Q.   Are you aware of Marko Adamovic's [sic] conviction for events at

 6     Biljani?

 7        A.   I have never heard of him.

 8        Q.   Ratko Dronjak's conviction, the commander of Kamenica camp?

 9        A.   He was the prisoner warden and I wasn't aware that he was

10     sentenced.  I know that there were proceedings instituted but I wasn't

11     aware that there was a conviction.

12        Q.   And the Chamber has received the register of the Banja Luka

13     military court, Exhibit P3563.  It reflects that none of your

14     subordinates were convicted for crimes against Muslims and Croats by the

15     Banja Luka military court during the war.  You're aware of that; right?

16        A.   This is the first I hear of it.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see it's a couple of minutes early

18     but for continuity I would suggest that we break now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We could take a bit of an early break.  Are you on

20     track as far as time is concerned, Mr. Traldi?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I think I can be a bit more accurate after the

22     break.  Mr. Stojanovic and I spoke this morning, and he'd asked that I

23     reserve the last 30 minutes for him, and I'm making an effort to do so.

24     I will organise myself during the break with that in mind.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, an effort is always something.  At least, we

Page 34658

 1     have to await the result but let's leave it to that.

 2             We'll take a break and we resume at 25 minutes past 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  As usual, we'll start with verification of the

 6     videolink.

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, everything is

 8     working fine.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Same is true for The Hague.

10             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Before I start, my speed of speech may have been off

12     but at temporary transcript page 35, I was recorded to inquire about

13     Marko Adamovic, and I'd intended to inquire about Marko Samardzija, and I

14     apologise for --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you would put the question again to

16     the witness so that he can answer.  It's also in the new version.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, just to complete the topic from before the break, are you

19     aware of Marko Samardzija's conviction for events at Biljani?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   I am going to change topics now.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P514.

23        Q.   This is an order by General Mladic dated the 13th of April, 1994.

24     At point 1 we see he orders in pertinent part that:  "UN

25     Military Observers and the members of UNPROFOR are to be accommodated in

Page 34659

 1     appropriate premises outside of the facilities where they had been

 2     stationed to date, that is, in the military facilities which are a

 3     potential target of the NATO air force as per your choice," and then he

 4     describes how they are to be secured.

 5             Turning to the end of the document in both languages, we see it's

 6     sent, among other things, to the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  The

 7     Chamber has received evidence, P587, that three days earlier, Mladic had

 8     ordered the VRS to block UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations' convoys

 9     and bring in and secure the personnel.

10             Using detained people as human shields in this manner by

11     "stationing them in potential targets of air-strikes" is not legal, is

12     it?

13        A.   In the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, we did not have these men,

14     and it is certainly not legal.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm asking you about it because you testified yesterday that

16     in all your encounters with General Mladic, you never received an illegal

17     order, either written or oral.  Would you like now to correct that

18     testimony?

19        A.   I wouldn't.

20        Q.   And on that topic, that order we discussed yesterday that you

21     sent implementing General Mladic's order to send soldiers on leave

22     because they were Muslims or Croats -- were to send all soldiers who were

23     Muslims and Croats on leave, adopting measures like that, purely on the

24     basis of your subordinates' ethnicity, that wouldn't be legal either,

25     would it?

Page 34660

 1        A.   This is a war situation.  I don't know whether it is legal or

 2     not, but if he wanted to preserve their lives, his manner of acting was

 3     excellent.

 4        Q.   Change topics again.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P2003.

 6        Q.   And we see here on the left-hand side of the page in the B/C/S,

 7     the decision on the strategic objectives for the Serbian people in Bosnia

 8     and Herzegovina.  I'm not going to go through them one by one, but can

 9     you just take a look for a moment and then confirm for us that you were

10     aware of them during the war.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we zoom in a bit further.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Now, this is something you discussed in your interview.  But how

15     did you become aware of these objectives?

16        A.   When we had this briefing at the Main Staff, then I found out.

17        Q.   Who listed the strategic objectives at that briefing?

18        A.   They were written out, just like here, now.

19        Q.   Let me ask slightly differently.  Who provided the briefing on

20     them?

21        A.   Well, General Mladic and Mr. Karadzic were the main speakers.

22        Q.   And were the other corps commanders, as well as yourself, present

23     for this?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And these strategic objectives were both military and political

Page 34661

 1     goals; right?

 2        A.   I don't know about the political ones, but the military ones,

 3     yes.

 4        Q.   And General Mladic's orders would set out what your tasks were in

 5     order to realise the strategic objectives; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P1968.

 8        Q.   Now, this is Directive 4.  Turning to page 4 in the English and

 9     page 9 in the B/C/S, I'd ask you to just take a minute to look at the

10     tasks assigned to the 2nd Krajina Corps by this directive.  It's on the

11     lower part of the page in the B/C/S.

12             And in its tasking to your corps, this directive implements the

13     strategic objectives; right?

14        A.   Part of the strategic objectives.

15        Q.   Which part?

16        A.   Well, reaching the Una river.

17        Q.   That's Objective 4, right, or part of Objective 4?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

19        Q.   And just like General Mladic is implementing the strategic

20     objectives by issuing an operational directive to you, you would have

21     implemented his directive by issuing an operational order to your

22     subordinate brigades; right?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   And the 2nd Krajina Corps implemented Directive 4 by launching

25     Operation Una-92; right?

Page 34662

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, can we have page 5 in the English and 11 in the B/C/S,

 3     directing your attention to the Drina Corps's tasking, we see that the

 4     Drina Corps is to defend Visegrad, the dam, Zvornik and the corridor, the

 5     rest of its forces in the wider Podrinje region are to exhaust the enemy,

 6     inflict the heaviest possible losses on them and force them to leave the

 7     Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas with the Muslim population.

 8             Now, this -- this tasking also implements the strategic

 9     objectives; right?

10        A.   I'm not familiar with this task of the Drina Corps.

11        Q.   In fact, units of the 2nd Krajina Corps were deployed to the

12     Podrinje area to assist the Drina Corps in implementing this task,

13     weren't they?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Now the Chamber has received evidence, P2242, that during those

16     operations, the Drina Corps commander, General Zivanovic, informed your

17     Chief of Staff, Colonel Vlaisavljevic, that he was in favour of

18     continuing with the burning of Muslim houses during those operations in

19     the Podrinje.  I have two questions.

20             First:  Why was he -- why would he have been relaying that

21     information if your units were not also taking part in the operations in

22     that area?

23        A.   In that area, it did not participate.  A unit participated in the

24     area of Milici in order to protect the mine.  Not in other areas though.

25     When the defence of the Milici Brigade was threatened in the area of the

Page 34663

 1     mine.

 2        Q.   Second question:  Did Colonel Vlaisavljevic also relay to you the

 3     information about the destruction of Muslim property - the burning of

 4     their houses specifically - during these operations?

 5        A.   Never.  We never talked about that.  He never relayed that to me.

 6     I never heard of that.

 7        Q.   Finally on this topic, to return to the first question I'd asked

 8     you, I understand you testified you weren't familiar with this specific

 9     tasking.  Based on your knowledge of the strategic objectives, however,

10     you can tell that the tasking of the Drina Corps is also implementing

11     those objectives; right?

12        A.   I wouldn't want to go into that now.  I wouldn't want to give my

13     opinion.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not asked about an opinion, but you

15     were asked, based on your knowledge of the strategic objectives, whether

16     you can tell that the tasking of the Drina Corps is also implementing

17     these objectives.

18             Was it or was it not?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let us assume that that was

20     the case?

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   And we read, in pertinent part, in that tasking that the enemy

23     forces are supposed to be forced to leave with the civilian population.

24     Forcing the civilian population to leave, that's another illegal order;

25     right.

Page 34664

 1        A.   I don't know of that order.

 2        Q.   You know, based on your training, that ordering subordinate

 3     forces to drive out the civilian population is illegal, don't you?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Misquote.  Because

 5     the words used was -- were "drive out the civilian population."

 6             I would kindly ask my colleague to tell me where that is written

 7     in the document that we have before us.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi --

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'll phrase it very precisely.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Forcing the Muslim population to leave an area, ordering your

13     subordinate forces to do that is illegal; right?

14        A.   I don't know of that order, and I cannot give my opinion whether

15     Mladic did write that or did not.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the question, Witness.

17             Could you tell us whether, according to your knowledge of

18     international humanitarian law, as a professional -- professional

19     officer, whether forcing the Muslim population to leave an area and

20     ordering subordinate forces to do so, whether that is legal or illegal?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

22     speaker.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer.  The interpreters did

24     not catch your words.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to international law,

Page 34665

 1     that is not legal.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   I'm done with this document, and I'm going to turn to the topic

 5     of prisoners held by your corps.

 6             Your corps had an exchange commission; right?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps, Mr. Traldi, you again ask a question

 8     which you asked before, whether the witness would change his answer, that

 9     no illegal orders were issued.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, I'll give you another opportunity to change your answer as

12     to whether General Mladic ever issued illegal orders.  Would you like to

13     change that testimony now?

14        A.   He never issued me an illegal order, and I wouldn't want to

15     change anything in respect of that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to take the witness back for a moment

17     to the questions that were put to you in relation to the document in

18     which orders were given that UN Military Observers and UNPROFOR members

19     were to be put in places where, that is, stationing them in potential

20     targets of air-strikes.  You said:  "That is not legal."

21             But you added:  "In the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, we did not

22     have these men."

23             Now, I'd like to take you back.  That order that UN

24     Military Observers and UNPROFOR members were to be stationed in potential

25     targets of air-strikes, that order, you said, was illegal.

Page 34666

 1             I have two questions.  First:  Were there any UN

 2     Military Observers and were there any UNPROFOR members in your area of

 3     responsibility?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not stationed, but sometimes

 5     they --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the rest.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat.  You said they were not

 8     stationed but sometimes ...

 9             Could you resume from there.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would pass and go towards

11     Bihac as announced, and we would see them off to the border of the zone.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So they were there from time to time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Passed there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In order to pass, you have to be somewhere.

17             My second question would be:  Whether this order was addressed to

18     the 2nd Krajina Corps.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what is written here.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any reason to doubt that it was?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Why would I?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that you were issued an order in

23     rather general terms which, under circumstances, could have been

24     implemented, you received an order which was illegal.

25             I do not understand at this moment why you would not correct your

Page 34667

 1     testimony that you never received an illegal order.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One needs to bear in mind what the

 3     reason behind it was, what the reason for writing it was.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Does it make -- does that make it any less illegal?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say that stationing UNPROFOR and UN

 7     Military Observers in locations which are potential targets of

 8     air-strikes would become illegal [sic] if you had a good reason for that?

 9     Would become any less illegal is, I think, what I said.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose they were stationed with

11     the forces of the VRS.  So they were not separated.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't my --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The goal was --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't my question.  The order clearly was to

15     station them in potential targets of air-strikes and whether there would

16     be any VRS members in that area or not, is that relevant for the

17     illegality of that order.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no problem with that.  I did

19     not implement the order, and I am not going to change what I had said

20     previously.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you were not asked whether you implemented any

22     illegal orders.  You were asked whether you received any illegal orders.

23             Focussing on that, you would still not correct your testimony?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 34668

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With regard to this issue.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that we are talking about this

 3     issue.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Turning to prisoners.  Your corps had an exchange commission;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   It was led by an officer named Milan Ivancevic, wasn't it?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Under which organ of your corps did the exchange commission fall?

12        A.   The political organ.

13        Q.   Is that legal, morale and religious affairs?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   And when your corps entered into an exchange agreement, the

16     Main Staff had to approve that; right?

17        A.   The Main Staff was informed that there would be an exchange.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's have 65 ter 32428.

19        Q.   This is a document you issued the 13th of November, 1994 to the

20     Main Staff.  What we see here as the English comes up is that you're

21     seeking -- you're urgently requesting the Main Staff's approval to enter

22     into negotiations about an exchange; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that's because you needed the Main Staff's approval to do so;

25     right?

Page 34669

 1        A.   That is right.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 32428.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7338.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now, you were aware that some of the prisoners held by your

 8     brigades were taken to do forced labour at the front lines; right?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 19091.

11        Q.   Now, this is a daily combat report from the Command of the

12     11th Brigade sent to the Command of the 2nd Krajina Corps dated the

13     1st of July, 1992.  And we see at the end of point 1 that a captured

14     enemy soldier had managed to escape while working on the entrenchment as

15     what is described as "our forward line of defence."

16             So you were, in fact, informed by your subordinate units that

17     they sent prisoners to do forced labour at the front lines; right?

18        A.   If one looks at this, it seems to be the case.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7339.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             Witness, you initially answered that you were not aware that some

24     of the prisoners held by your brigade were taken to do forced labour.  If

25     we find elements in combat reports that this was the case, I would urge

Page 34670

 1     you to be very clear in telling us whether you were not aware of it but

 2     that it may have happened or that you were aware that it did not happen.

 3             Could you specify in any future answer which is the case, because

 4     it happened now a couple of times that looking at documents, we get

 5     answers which are not exactly consistent with your initial answer.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I want to focus now on Kamenica which we discussed earlier.

 9             Now Kamenica camp was just a beat-up old school with a barbed

10     wire fence around it; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I understand from your interview that you claim you never visited

13     Kamenica yourself; right?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   I understand you claim that you never asked anyone what was going

16     on there; is that right?

17        A.   It was a prison.  There was no need.  The security organ was

18     competent and controlled it.

19        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that you on at least one

20     occasion issued an order regarding the treatment of prisoners of war.

21     That's because you were responsible for the treatment of prisoners of war

22     in your area of responsibility; right?

23        A.   Probably.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P3996.

25        Q.   Now, this is a report issued by your assistant commander for

Page 34671

 1     information, Mladen Skenderija, on 5th of August.  We see that, in

 2     accordance with the London Agreement, he is writing that an

 3     International Red Cross team and foreign journalists are visiting POW

 4     camps.  The visits are conducted by organisations of the government and

 5     the team will be escorted by a representative of the army, a

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Savo Sokanovic and refers to a prisoner-of-war camp in

 7     Drvar.  Now that refers to Kamenica; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, while this bears Colonel Skenderija's name, of course, the

10     potential visit to Kamenica camp would have been discussed in the corps

11     command; right?

12        A.   I don't remember.

13        Q.   So is it your evidence today -- well, sorry.  Let me start that

14     question again.

15             As a matter of course, an event like this would have been

16     discussed in the corps command, including with you; right?

17        A.   We did not discuss it.  It was not on the agenda.  It was done by

18     the morale organ.  It was Colonel Skenderija at the time.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20        A.   In Kamenica --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22        A.   There was a prison.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... for a moment, sir.  I'll ask

24     you questions about the nature of Kamenica in a minute.

25             If you were informed by a member of your corps command you were

Page 34672

 1     aware that a foreign journalist team, International Red Cross team might

 2     visit a camp in your area of responsibility under your corps's security

 3     organ, is it your evidence that under those circumstances you wouldn't

 4     have asked, What are they going to find if they go there?

 5        A.   I probably would.

 6        Q.   And you never heard reports that people were abused or killed

 7     there in your evidence; is that right?

 8        A.   I was never informed and I never heard that anyone was killed in

 9     Kamenica.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32448.

11        Q.   Now, this time we don't have a translation into English yet.  If

12     we can turn to the top of page 2 in the B/C/S, and this is a report

13     coming from the 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security organ to the

14     VRS Main Staff dated the 5th of November, 1994.

15             Here at the top of page 2, do you agree with me that we see in

16     the first -- after the first hyphen, a report that Ratko Dronjak in

17     Kamenica and Drvar took out seven people at night, and they were never

18     seen again; is that right?

19        A.   I don't see that?  Uh-huh.

20        Q.   Could you just read slowly beginning at the word "osoba" for us.

21        A.   It's there.

22        Q.   And just so we all have the exact text, can you read it aloud,

23     please.

24        A.   "A person from the Red Cross says that Ratko Dronjak was in

25     Kamenica camp in Drvar and killed seven people from Vojic near Kljuc

Page 34673

 1     during one night and drove away with them in an unknown direction."

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the very

 3     last words of the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the very last words, Witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never heard of this case.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   So you were never ordered to investigate it, could you?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first have the complete answer.  Or was

 9     that -- were those the last words that you read.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  "Never heard of this case."  Were you reading

12     the last few words, or were you commenting on what has happened?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my comment.  I am not

14     familiar with this case.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I -- I do understand that.  But you were invited

16     to read the last few words again from the paragraph Mr. Traldi invited

17     you to read because the last few words were not caught by the

18     interpreters.

19             So could you perhaps resume from where you said:  "...during one

20     night and drove away with them in an unknown direction," and what then

21     follows?  Would you please read that aloud for us?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "And he drove away with them in an

23     unknown direction."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 34674

 1        Q.   You say you've never heard of that so you were never clearly

 2     ordered to investigate it; right?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be marked

 5     for identification.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32448 receives number P7340.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32455.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that document, I would have

11     one additional question for you, Witness.

12             The previous document we looked at, I don't know whether you

13     remember which one it was.  Otherwise I'll ... that was the document in

14     which possible visits of the Red Cross were announced.

15             Do you remember that document?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, were there any women and/or children kept in

18     conditions which would be similar to being detained?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not familiar with that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any explanation as why there was

21     any concern that these visits would be exploited and that a special focus

22     would be on women and children which suggests that at least women and

23     children must have been in places where the Red Cross would visit?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't concerned with the Red

25     Cross coming to visit the prison in Kamenica.  I was actually glad.

Page 34675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But the document written by one of your subordinates

 2     expressed concern about those visits to be exploited and abused.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not register who the person

 4     who expressed this concern was.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the document was -- and -- was -- is signed by

 6     or at least is issued by Colonel Mladen Skenderija.  You had a look at it

 7     a second ago.  If need be, we can go back to it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd like to go back to it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah -- well, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Concern is expressed there that, especially in

12     relation to women and children, that the visits might be exploited.  Do

13     you have any explanation for that, if you were not aware in any way that

14     women and children were kept in conditions similar to detention?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I hear about

16     that, from you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Now, sir, this is the Trial Judgement in Ratko Dronjak's case,

21     the warden.  And if we can turn to page 45 in B/C/S and 13 in the English

22     which represents just the parts we've had translated.  We see a section

23     headed, "Non-contentious facts."  And if we could turn to page 15 in the

24     English, 47 in the B/C/S, paragraph 206, we read, based on Ratko

25     Dronjak's testimony, that your corps's exchange commission headed by

Page 34676

 1     Milan Ivancevic was directly linked to the prison and knew who was inside

 2     at any time.

 3             So is it your evidence, as you've just told the Presiding Judge,

 4     that you'd never heard about the types of people who were being held

 5     there even though your subordinates on the exchange commission knew?

 6        A.   I stand by that.

 7        Q.   Turning to page 21 in the English, 57 in the B/C/S we read in

 8     paragraph 246 that a witness named Dragan Rodic who, as other evidence in

 9     the judgement or portions of the judgement reflect, was a shift commander

10     at Kamenica who pled guilty that he stated that the detained civilians

11     were detained solely for the fact that they were not Serbs.

12             Did you ever ask any of your subordinates in the security organ

13     why the people at Kamenica were being detained there?

14        A.   I did not ask.  Because I was not involved in it.  I was at the

15     front line taking care of defending our area of responsibility.  I didn't

16     ask it of anyone.

17        Q.   Your command post was in Drvar; right?

18        A.   For a while, but it was in Ostrelj, between Drvar and Petrovac

19     most of the time.

20        Q.   Kamenica is also in Drvar; right?

21        A.   Well, yes.

22        Q.   About how far apart were they?

23        A.   I think 2 or 3 kilometres.  Not more.  It is near Drvar.

24        Q.   So, when you said a moment ago you were at the front line taking

25     care of defending our area of responsibility, in fact, you were no more

Page 34677

 1     than 2 or 3 kilometres away from the camp; right?

 2        A.   It was in Drvar at first but then we moved to Ostrelj rather soon

 3     afterwards which is much further away.

 4        Q.   Can we have page 4 of this judgement?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi before we continue I object to the way

 6     you -- you presented the evidence of the witness where you said that he

 7     had answered my question, that he never heard about the types of people

 8     who were being held.  Because I only asked about women and children.  And

 9     since the follow-up of your question is about civilians that could

10     include men as well, so that is not fair to the witness.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point, Your Honour.

13             Can we have page 4 in both languages, please.

14        Q.   Now, I'm going to focus on section 2 of the judgement.  This

15     refers in paragraphs 2 -- sorry, paragraphs 1 and 2, subparagraphs 1 and

16     2, to persons who were killed or who were detained there and then killed.

17     And I'm just going ask to you focus on three names.  Under point 2.1,

18     Kalmin Kalic and Enver Cehic.  And under 2.2, Kemal Sepic.

19             Do you see those names?

20        A.   I see it.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32449.

22        Q.   This is the Bihac cantonal court report on the exhumation,

23     autopsy, and identification of bodies from the mass grave Jama Golubnjaca

24     in Drvar and the report then refers to 19 male bodies that were found, of

25     which three were identified.  I see we're waiting to release ...

Page 34678

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there's no English translation

 2     uploaded.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, do you have an English translation

 4     before I ask whether you uploaded it.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  We do.  And we've uploaded it, and we're --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's released soon?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  [Microphone not activated]

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   While it comes up, sir, we'd discussed -- yesterday on direct you

11     testified that the army had nothing to do with the departure of civilians

12     from your area of responsibility.  Is it your evidence that the detention

13     of civilians in these conditions at Kamenica, just because they were not

14     Serbs, had nothing to do with their departure from the 2nd Krajina Corps'

15     area of responsibility?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And Your Honours, apparently I had misspoken a moment ago and we

18     don't have the translation.  I'd looked at the screen and seen something

19     that apparently was not what I thought I was looking at.

20             But, sir, I can tell you that in this report, in this exhumation

21     report, we'll see again the names of Kalmin Kalic, Enver Cehic,

22     Kemal Sepic are you aware that people detained at Kamenica have been,

23     after the war, exhumed from mass graves also in area of responsibility?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since we have the B/C/S version on the screen you

25     could direct the attention of the witness to that portion of the

Page 34679

 1     document.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I'll do so in a moment but I'd ask for an answer to

 3     my question.

 4        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

 5        Q.   Are you aware that people detained at Kamenica have been, after

 6     the war, exhumed from mass graves in your area of responsibility.  Yes or

 7     no?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And I'll return -- my notes are incomplete as to the page

10     numbers but we've just fixed that.  Can we have page 4.

11             And we see at the bottom of the page, number 3, Kemal Sepic.

12     Turning to page 5, we see at name 8, Enver Cehic; and name 15,

13     Kalmin Kalic.

14             So the truth is people detained in your corps' camps were exhumed

15     from mass graves in your area of responsibility after the war; right?

16        A.   Maybe they were exchanged.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 01060.

18        Q.   As it comes up, Major Mitrovic, Ratko Dronjak's superior, was

19     promoted to lieutenant-colonel by General Mladic in January 1993; right?

20        A.   Probably.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I tender this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7341.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have 65 ter 32432.

Page 34680

 1        Q.   And what we see here dated the 12th of October, 1992 is a

 2     certification by General Mladic that you had also been promoted; right?

 3        A.   I was promoted on the 16th of December, 1992.  I was promoted to

 4     the rank of Major-General.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 32432.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7342.

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P7342 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my questions about

12     Kamenica --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you would wait for a second, witness.

15             This completes Kamenica, I do understand.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And regarding any portions of the judgement or the

17     exhumation report, I'll speak with Mr. Stojanovic and see if there are

18     any matters in dispute.  We've uploaded other proof of death materials

19     for the victims I mentioned but I anticipate it won't be necessary to

20     tender all of that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And in view of the evidence of the witness that they

22     may have been exchanged, are there autopsy reports indicating cause of

23     death?

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'd have to go through them and I'll do so at the

25     break.

Page 34681

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             Witness, you wanted to add something.  You have an opportunity to

 3     do so now.  If it is relevant as an answer to one of the questions that

 4     was put to you.  So not to raise any issues that you consider to be

 5     interesting but in direct relation to questions that you were put to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading this certificate and it

 7     is written here that I'm being promoted --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The sound has gone bad

 9     again.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could --

11             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we have some problems with the quality of

13     the sound.  Could you -- if you were reading from the document or drawing

14     our attention to parts of it, could you do it again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here is

16     certificate, concerning my promotion in the month of October.  A general

17     is promoted to that rank by the Supreme Commander by way of a decree and

18     I received that decree on 16th of December, 1992.  The decree promoting

19     me to the rank of Major-General.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think most important is that you were promoted

21     rather than exactly -- the exact date of it.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   I'm going to turn back to Kljuc municipality now, sir.  And along

25     with the 17th Brigade, you had an engineering regiment, the

Page 34682

 1     2nd Engineering Regiment, based at Laniste in Kljuc municipality; right.

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   That regiment answered directly to you in the corps Command Staff

 4     so that the 17th Brigade's commander would have to call you to request

 5     assistance from the unit; right?

 6        A.   That's the way it's supposed to be.

 7        Q.   That's the way it was; right?

 8        A.   I don't know which case you're referring to.

 9        Q.   In principle, the brigade commander in Kljuc had to call the

10     corps command to request assistance from the 2nd Engineering Regiment;

11     right?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   And the engineering regiment had standard engineering equipment:

14     Bulldozers, excavators, that type of equipment; right?

15        A.   That's correct too.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P520.  And I'm going to turn to Biljani

18     now.

19        Q.   Now, this is an order by Colonel Drago Samardzija dated the

20     9th of July, 1992.  At that point he was the commander of the

21     17th Brigade; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Directing your attention to point 2a, assignments for units, we

24     read that this operation is going to be carried out by the 2nd Battalion

25     of the 17th Brigade reinforced with the reconnaissance platoon, a

Page 34683

 1     military police squad, and a police platoon.  And we see above that it

 2     will start at 0500 hours on the 10th of July.  Now you were aware of that

 3     operation; right?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32422 -- sorry P7331.  Page 272.

 6        Q.   Now we see you're shown this order dated the 9th of July.  We see

 7     you read it out.  Refers to operations 0500 hours on the 10th of July,

 8     1992.  If we could scroll down, we see you're asked:  "This is an

 9     operation that you would be monitoring?

10             And you answer:  "Yes."

11             And if we turn to the next page, the beginning of your answer is

12     recorded as indiscernible but you say definitely with the knowledge of

13     the corps command.  You're asked:  "Samardzija is not just going to plan

14     an order and just do it without letting you know, is he?"

15             And you say:  "Correct."

16             Now, first, do you stand by those portions of your OTP interview

17     in 2004 as truthful and accurate?

18        A.   I don't remember.

19        Q.   Let's have page 276.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, does the witness not remember that he

21     stands by this?

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, do I understand your answer to mean whether you no longer

24     remember that the portions I read back to you are accurate.  Is that

25     right?

Page 34684

 1        A.   I don't remember that I had said that.  I see this in a foreign

 2     language and you're just reading that, and that does not have to be

 3     correct necessarily.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you say that's not what I said, then

 5     we'll verify on the basis of the audio whether the recording is accurate,

 6     yes or no.

 7             If you say, I don't remember, then it leaves it open whether you

 8     said it or not.  But if you say, I definitely did not say this, then

 9     we'll have it verified.

10             What is your position?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  I don't

12     remember.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I leave it to the Defence whether they

14     will insist with the Prosecution on further verification.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have page 276 of your interview for the moment

16     and I'll --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I add one sentence.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If one line is indiscernible which may really affect

20     the meaning of that sentence, then I think you should have excluded that

21     from asking the witness whether he stands by it or not because depending

22     what is indiscernible it could be anything.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Beginning at line 16 -- actually, let's start just above that.

Page 34685

 1     Line 12, you're being asked about the same order.  You say that, "Colonel

 2     Samardzija sent it to his subordinate units.  He sent that to his units.

 3     He didn't send that to me.  I never saw this because he had received a

 4     task according to that decision from me, and then he devises his own

 5     order."

 6             So first question:  Clearly at the time you recalled enough to

 7     opine on the process of who this order was communicated to; right?

 8        A.   It certainly wasn't sent to me.

 9        Q.   Do you stand today by your statement in the interview that he

10     issued this order based on a task he'd received from you?

11        A.   Probably.

12        Q.   Below that we see you're asked:  "Are you monitoring his combat

13     operations on the 10th of July, 1992?  What if he needs help?"

14             And you answer:  "My Chief of Staff was monitoring at this time."

15             Now does that refresh your recollection as to whether you were

16     aware of the operation that Colonel Samardzija had ordered?

17        A.   I was not monitoring that operation.  Maybe - I don't remember -

18     the Chief of Staff was.

19        Q.   Do you recall saying that in your interview, that your Chief of

20     Staff, Colonel Vlaisavljevic, was monitoring the operation?

21        A.   I don't remember.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have page 277.

23        Q.   Now here you mention Colonel Vlaisavljevic, your Chief of Staff.

24     You were asked where he was on the 10th of July, 1992.  You say you think

25     he was at Laniste.  You say there was a barracks in Laniste.  You were

Page 34686

 1     asked if there's a barracks in Laniste, correct?  You say:  Yes, the

 2     commander of the 2nd Engineering Regiment.  You say -- you were asked

 3     well, he had coms with you, he had communications with you, when

 4     necessary.  And you answer yes.

 5             Do you stand today by your statements in your interview that

 6     Colonel Vlaisavljevic was present in Laniste during the operation

 7     Colonel Samardzija ordered in the document we just saw and had

 8     communications with you?

 9        A.   Probably.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter -- sorry.  Can we have the same

11     document, page 281.  And we see -- sorry, this page may be inaccurate in

12     my notes.

13        Q.   Let me just ask the question.  After this operation was

14     completed, the operation in Biljani, do you recall being told that it had

15     been successful?

16        A.   I do not recall.

17        Q.   Let's scroll down to the bottom of the page, Mr. Grady asks you:

18     "Now, general, I want to know what you were told on the 10th of July,

19     1992, about what happened in Biljani in the municipality of Kljuc during

20     Samardzija's combat operation."

21             You respond:  "Just that the task was carried out and that the

22     territory had been liberated."

23             Does that refresh your recollection as to, first, whether you

24     were aware of this operation; and, second, whether you were told it had

25     been carried out successfully?

Page 34687

 1        A.   That was no operation.  That was a tactical task.  Probably what

 2     I said then is true.

 3        Q.   So we agree you were aware of this tactical task as it was being

 4     carried out; right?

 5        A.   Probably.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have page 275 of the same interview.

 7        Q.   Now you had been shown the tasking of the Sanica police platoon.

 8     Mr Grady says:  "So again, this is another situation where the Kljuc SJB

 9     is involved in a combat operation."  And you respond:  "It's placed under

10     the command of the brigade commander, yes."

11             Do you stand today by your statement at the time that the Kljuc

12     SJB was under the command of Brigade Commander Samardzija during this

13     operation?

14        A.   Probably.  I don't remember.

15        Q.   Now, this Chamber has received evidence from a number of

16     witnesses that well over 100 people detained at the Biljani school were

17     murdered on or about the 10th of July, 1992.  You're aware of that today

18     as you sit there; right?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence from a Defence witness, named

21     Nikola Vracar that the massacre was the talk of the town.  The Chamber

22     has received evidence from a witness named Bertie Weiss that

23     Marko Samardzija told him he had contacted his commander among others to

24     tell him what was about to happen.  It's your evidence that it was the

25     talk of the town in your area of responsibility during an operation you

Page 34688

 1     were aware of that your Chief of Staff with whom you had a good

 2     relationship as you testified early was monitoring and in the last 23

 3     years, you yourself have not become aware of this massacre.  Is that your

 4     evidence today?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The sound has gone bad

 6     again.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer because the

 8     quality of the sound was bad.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know anything about that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you know it now,

11     not whether you knew it then, but whether you know it now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know it now either.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   The Chamber has also received evidence that the people killed

15     were exhumed from a site less than a kilometre from the Laniste barracks

16     where that engineering regiment that answered to your corps was based.

17     It's your evidence that you were not aware of the mass burial of the

18     victims of this massacre.

19        A.   I was not.

20        Q.   An operation like that would have required that engineering

21     regiment to use resources, use its vehicles, use gasoline; right?

22        A.   Probably.

23        Q.   That would have been reflected in reports it was sending to the

24     logistics organ of the corps, wouldn't it?

25        A.   Yes, but that was not in the report.

Page 34689

 1        Q.   So you weren't aware of this massacre that was the talk of the

 2     town but you're testifying today that you're confident that the reports

 3     the engineering regiment send up did not reflect increased activity

 4     during the period when these victims would haven buried.

 5             Have I understood your evidence correctly?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   Sir, I put to you your evidence about this is not credible and

 8     you could not have avoided knowing about this massacre committed by your

 9     soldiers and others subordinated to them during it.  That's the truth;

10     right?

11        A.   That is your opinion.  You're entitled to it.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I know we are on a slightly unusual

13     schedule today, or slightly different than normal.  I think we're close

14     to the time for the break.  I have a relatively brief period remaining

15     for myself.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is a relatively brief period?

17             MR. TRALDI:  Certainly no more than ten minutes, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No more than ten minutes.  Then we'll take the break

19     now.  We'll resume at 25 minutes past 1.00.  And then, Mr. Stojanovic,

20     the remaining time is, as you have discussed it with Mr. Traldi; at least

21     there's a little bit more perhaps for any final questions by Mr. Traldi.

22             We take the break.

23             Witness, we'd like to see you back in half an hour.

24             We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes past 1.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.54 p.m.

Page 34690

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We check again whether the videolink is functioning

 3     well.

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, it is, thank you,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly to provide the Chamber the information

 9     it had requested before the break, the information as to cause of death

10     is actually in the exhumation report that I used and attributes for all

11     of the individuals violent deaths, says almost all in civilian clothes,

12     with two wearing items of clothing that may be considered as military

13     garb.  Those two are not any of the three I referred to by name.  It also

14     saying that some of the individuals were blindfolded and doesn't identify

15     those by name.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, and they were -- the mass grave was in

17     the territory controlled by Republika Srpska or is that, just a location.

18     I invite the parties to agree on that.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Just so we understand what we're being asked to

20     agree on, at what time in history?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  At that time.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Of the exhumation or of the war?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The relevance of the question may be to fully

24     appreciate the suggestion - it wasn't more than that - by the witness

25     that it may have been that they had been exchanged, which would make it

Page 34691

 1     unlikely that if they died after that, they would then nevertheless be

 2     found in a mass grave which is located not then in Federation-controlled

 3     area.  I mean, in order to assess the credibility of -- or the

 4     possibilities in that respect, it may be important to know whether the

 5     mass grave was in territory and controlled by whom at the time.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for not immediately understanding that,

 7     Your Honour.  Thank you for the clarification.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, I want to turn finally to the departure of Muslims from your

11     area of responsibility, both Muslims and Croats.

12             Now, you testified yesterday at transcript page 34592 that most

13     of the non-Serbs had left before the creation of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

14     In fact, you know thousands and thousands of non-Serbs left your area of

15     responsibility during your time as corps commander; right?

16        A.   I'm not familiar with a figure --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The figure wasn't as

18     high.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them did leave though.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Well, for instance, you were aware of convoys of thousands of

22     Muslims out of Kljuc municipality during your time as corps commander;

23     right?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Let's have P355, page 26, in the English and the B/C/S

Page 34692

 1     transcript.  As it comes up, this will be one of General Mladic's

 2     notebooks from the war.

 3             These are a portion of his notes of a meeting he attended on the

 4     11th of September, 1992.  We see the president of Jovo Banjac -- sorry

 5     the president of Kljuc municipality, Jovo Banjac's name.  We see that.

 6             Mladic records him as giving thanks to the 30th KD commander and

 7     Colonel Vlaisavljevic.  That's your Chief of Staff; right.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   We see that Mr. Banjac is recorded as informing General Mladic

10     there were 17.000 Muslims and now there are 5.000.  And 1500 left today.

11             Like General Mladic you were aware that more than a thousand

12     Muslims left Kljuc in September 1992, weren't you?

13        A.   I didn't know about that.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P356, page 123 in the English and the

15     B/C/S transcript.

16        Q.   This will be another of General Mladic's notebooks from the war,

17     and we're going to see an entry on the 4th of November, 1992, 1800 hours,

18     a meeting with the representatives of the authorities of Petrovac, Drvar,

19     Kljuc.

20             If we turn to page 125, we'll see references to

21     Colonel Vlaisavljevic and to you.  You and your Chief of Staff both

22     attended this meeting; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Turning back to page 124, we see at the bottom Vinko Kondic from

25     the MUP in Kljuc is recorded to say that:  "About 2.000 Muslims are now

Page 34693

 1     living in Kljuc municipality, and there used to be 17,5."

 2             It's a reference again to there used to be being 17.000 or more

 3     than 17.000 Muslims in Kljuc municipality; right?

 4        A.   That's what it says.

 5        Q.   And so we see here you and General Mladic together meeting this

 6     time with the civilian police chief and being informed of the massive

 7     exodus of Muslims from Kljuc, one of the municipalities in your area of

 8     responsibility; right?

 9        A.   But that means from the beginning of the conflict in all

10     likelihood, not as of the moment when the corps was formed.

11        Q.   Now you attended meetings of the Una-Sana region, didn't you?

12        A.   When?

13        Q.   In June 1992.

14        A.   I don't recall that.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have D1027, MFI.

16        Q.   Now this is a record of the second inter-municipality talks at

17     Korcanica on 14th June 1992.  At number 19 on this list, we see you;

18     right?

19        A.   My name can be found there.

20        Q.   And you attended this meeting, didn't you?

21        A.   Can you tell me the date?

22        Q.   14th of June, 1992.

23        A.   I don't remember.  Probably, yes.

24        Q.   And you remember you attended at least some meetings of this

25     regional group; right?

Page 34694

 1        A.   I attended several meetings, but I don't know what their names

 2     were or what groups were there and so on.

 3        Q.   Now the Chamber has received evidence that at the previous

 4     meeting, this group took the position that Muslims and Croats had to be

 5     moved out of their regions until their population was reduced to a level

 6     where Serb authority could be maintained.  A previous meeting on

 7     7 June 1992 after the creation of your corps.

 8             Now, you were aware that there were discussions and efforts to

 9     reduces the Muslim population of municipalities in your area of

10     responsibility during your time as corps commander; right?

11        A.   It might be the case.

12        Q.   The Chamber has received evidence, P3853, that as of early 1995,

13     the Banja Luka CSB was a ware that in every municipality in your area of

14     responsibility, including the ones that had been majority Muslim before

15     the war, the population had become at least 93 per cent Serb.  You were

16     aware of that too, weren't you?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that percentage.

18        Q.   You're certainly aware that the ethnic composition of the

19     population in the municipalities in your area of responsibility was

20     overwhelmingly Serb by the end of your time as corps commander; right?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   Now, you testified yesterday that the VRS didn't have anything to

23     do with it and you didn't think there were any situations where the front

24     line had to be opened to facilitate an exchange of population.  To get,

25     for instance, from Petrovac to Split on a convoy, someone would have to

Page 34695

 1     get through the front line; right?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   To get from Kljuc to Travnik, somebody would have to cross the

 4     front line; right?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   That would require --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  We did not hear the witness.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Can you repeat the last thing you said, sir.

10        A.   I said that politicians were supposed to reach agreement and the

11     military would let them go through whatever route they were to take.

12        Q.   So now you do recall occasions when the VRS would open the front

13     line to facilitate these exchanges.

14        A.   They did not go through my area but they did go outside of it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, may I remind you of your own words,

16     certainly not more than ten minutes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Yes --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That was approximately -- we started some 14, 15

19     minutes ago.

20             Could you please wind up because Mr. Stojanovic, I think, you

21     agreed that would you have half an hour and then it's --

22             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sir, you testified that the VRS didn't have anything to do with

Page 34696

 1     the people leaving.  We've seen brigades under your command, we've seen

 2     evidence that they massacred civilians, rounded up people, destroyed

 3     civilian property.  Those things had everything to do with the Muslim

 4     populations' flight from the municipalities in your area of

 5     responsibility, didn't they?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions in re-examination?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] General, sir, you were asked about your

14     attendance at the meetings of civilian structures, and you were shown a

15     document which concerns your attendance in -- at a meeting in the

16     Petrovac municipality.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Please tell the Court how did it come about that you would be in

19     attendance at such a meeting?

20        A.   The municipal president would call me and say, We have a meeting.

21     He wouldn't say meeting of a Crisis Staff but he said we have a meeting

22     of the leadership.  He would then ask me to come there and explain the

23     situation at the front lines.  That's how it went.

24             Then he would state any needs on behalf of the population and

25     what it was that we could do to help.

Page 34697

 1        Q.   I'll wait for the interpretation.

 2             Did you at any point in time receive written invitations to

 3     attend such meetings with an agenda?

 4        A.   No.  I was usually called on the phone or through direct contact,

 5     when we would encounter each other.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Were you invited to all municipal meetings or only

 7     those when military issues were on the agenda?

 8        A.   I was not invited to all meetings.  I suppose I was invited when

 9     military issues were to be discussed or someone from the corps command

10     would attend instead of me.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned documents of the Main Staff of the VRS

12     which speak to the establishment of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

13             Next could we please have document P4381 in e-court.

14             General, before you is a document dated the 4th of June, 1992, as

15     we can see in the left upper corner.  It comes from the Main Staff of the

16     then-Army of the Serbian Republic of BiH.  Kindly direct your attention

17     at item 2, which is on the next page of the document, where it reads:

18     "For the purposes of determining the boundaries of responsibilities in

19     the areas between corps, I hereby set corps' area of responsibility as

20     follows ..."

21             And then we have the 1st Krajina Corps, and at b, the 2nd Krajina

22     Corps, detailing its zone of responsibility.

23             Is this the document which dealt with the issue of place,

24     position, and zone of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

25        A.   Well, most of these locations are within the zone, but there is

Page 34698

 1     another document which details the municipalities in order to define the

 2     zone.  These are just some of the geographic locations inside the zone.

 3     Some of them do ring a bell, whereas others do not.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  As the corps commander, did you caution an order --

 5     issue orders to the effect of how to treat POWs and that rules regulating

 6     their status should be observed?

 7        A.   Yes, we did.  A course was also set up by representatives of the

 8     Red Cross to that effect.  Brigade commanders and their assistants for

 9     morale were present where they were familiarized with the

10     Geneva Convention pertaining to the treatment of POWs.

11        Q.   As the corps commander, did you insist on honouring the

12     regulation in terms of treating POWs by those in your subordinate units?

13        A.   We pointed that out in our orders, stating that they should abide

14     by those rules and that they should respect the prisoners and their

15     rights.  The procedure in case of capture was also described.  That is

16     what we acquainted everyone with.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we next have P39 --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you can wait for one second since the document is

19     still on our screen.

20             Witness, you told us that this document, especially under b where

21     the 2nd Krajina Corps is -- is mentioned, just give geographical

22     locations within the zone of the -- of responsibility.  However, the

23     document says that these are the boundaries.  Do you have any explanation

24     as why you consider this just a handful of locations within the zone of

25     responsibility instead of what the document says, these being boundaries?

Page 34699

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that these are boundaries,

 2     such as Celebici and the Korcine Pass and Malovan, Setac [phoen].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you referred to another document, could you

 4     tell us what that document is where you said the municipalities, I think,

 5     are mentioned?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be found where the order on

 7     establishment of the 2nd Krajina Corps was.  It details the units and the

 8     zone.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Forgive me, Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps my recollection

10     is not -- not -- not that well.  Is that a document we have looked at

11     already or are you going to tender that since the witness relies on it?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we have seen that

13     document.  During my re-direct, I will show another document to the

14     witness which might be the one he referred to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that in proofing you would have verified

16     that, this apparently being an important issue, but please proceed.

17     We'll hear.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we next have

19     P3995, please.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   General, sir, this document bears your name.  The date is the 5th

23     of August, 1992.  The title:  Order on treatment of prisoners of war.

24             In item 2 of the document, we read:  "It is forbidden, regardless

25     of the circumstances, to treat a prisoner with cruelty.  Prisoners must

Page 34700

 1     be treated humanely and must be protected from violence, verbal abuse and

 2     intimidation.  Prisoners shall retain the full civic, legal and civil

 3     capacities that they had at the time of capture."

 4             Is this the document you referred to a moment ago, in terms of

 5     its formulation?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   General, sir, did you, at any point in time, have information

 8     that some officers of your subordinate units acted in contravention of

 9     what is designated here?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   During the examination, a man by the name of Ratko Dronjak was

12     mentioned.  While you were performing the duty of the commander of the

13     2nd Krajina Corps, did you ever have an opportunity to meet this member

14     of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

15        A.   I know that he was warden of the prison in Kamenica.  I've never

16     seen him.  I don't know him.  I never went to visit the prison of

17     Kamenica.  That was under the security organs, the police, and that's

18     what they did.  And they also reported to the command about certain

19     problems.

20        Q.   How far away was the facility of Kamenica from Ostrelj, where you

21     had your command post most of the time while you were commander of the

22     2nd Krajina Corps?

23        A.   Well, maybe I'll make a mistake, but, say, it's about 10

24     kilometres.

25        Q.   How long did POWs stay at this facility before they were sent to

Page 34701

 1     Banja Luka?

 2        A.   For as long as the security organs needed to carry out their work

 3     and compile records of everything they did with them.  And then with

 4     these records and reports, they would go to Banja Luka with the POWs.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

 7     P4052 in e-court.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, Mr. Stojanovic, you

 9     asked whether the document we just had on our screen was the document the

10     witness referred to a bit earlier.  He described - at least the last

11     document I think he mentioned - it as the zone of responsibility defined

12     by municipalities.  I don't see any of that in the document you have just

13     shown to us.  So, therefore, if you had another document in mind, then

14     you could address the matter as you wish, but I have difficulties in

15     reconciling the last document the witness described with what you have

16     shown us on the screen.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This document

19     deals precisely with the topic that we've been discussing.  I'm going to

20     put some questions now.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I was talking about the previous

22     document which did not reflect what the witness earlier said.  At least

23     the last document he suggested that would exist.  It doesn't reflect in

24     any way with what he described then.  But if it's the new one, well, I

25     don't see that many municipalities at first sight, but I'll wait for your

Page 34702

 1     questions.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Sir, General, you have a document before you dated the 9th of

 4     June, 1992.  In this document, the Command of the 30th PARTD is

 5     submitting to the Command of the 1st Krajina Corps an explanation about

 6     resubordination, and it says that in the building of the SO Kljuc a

 7     meeting was held with NS of the 2nd Krajina Corps who, on behalf of the

 8     Command of the 2nd Krajina Corps, informed the commander of the

 9     30th PARTD that the territory of the SO Kljuc and the units deployed on

10     that territory are being resubordinated to the Command of the 2nd Krajina

11     Corps.

12             Do you know anything about this meeting in which - as it seems

13     here - the Chief of Staff took part, the Chief of Staff of the

14     2nd Krajina Corps, in an attempt to resolve the question of

15     resubordinating the unit from Kljuc?

16        A.   I know -- and that meeting was attended by the Chief of Staff,

17     Colonel Mico Vlaisavljevic.  In Kljuc, there was not a brigade.  There

18     were territorial units, and when Colonel Drago Samardzija arrived, he

19     reported on the 9th of June, 1992, he was supposed to establish a

20     brigade, the 17th Brigade, in Kljuc.

21             After that, an order arrived from the Command of the Main Staff.

22     That was the 3rd of July.  Stating that in Kljuc, the establishment of

23     the 17th Brigade, Light Infantry Brigade, should be made official.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness -- could you tell us what PARTD

Page 34703

 1     stands for?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partisan Brigade, the 30th Partisan

 3     Brigade.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you really saying it's partisan brigade or

 6     partisan division because the D could also stand for division, as it is

 7     translated on top of that document.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  You're right.  Division.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

11     Your Honour.

12        Q.   During this transition period, who was in charge of equipping the

13     unit from Kljuc logistically in terms of weapon, personnel, materiel?

14        A.   Well, since it was supposed to be established and become part of

15     the 2nd Krajina Corps, all its needs had to be met by the 2nd Corps.

16        Q.   I'd like us to take a look at a document together and its 65 ter

17     number is 03067.

18             General, sir, there is a document here of the War Presidency of

19     the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc dated the 13th of July, 1992, and it is

20     signed by the president of the War Presidency, Jovo Banjac.  It says that

21     this is a conclusion, and you can read it.  It's before you so I don't

22     have to read everything.

23             However, what indicates who it is that leads this unit and which

24     does not correspond to what you've been saying right now, which is the

25     way things should be according to rules and that's why I'm ask you all

Page 34704

 1     this so that you would explain it to the Court.

 2             In paragraph 4 it says that the Executive Board of the SDS Kljuc

 3     should make a list of officers and forward it to the brigade commander in

 4     order to reinforce the Command Staff of the brigade, mainly for morale,

 5     from battalion to brigade level.

 6             Do you know what this is all about, General, sir?

 7        A.   Well, you see Colonel Drago received an order to report to the

 8     duty on the 9th of June, 1992, and the Main Staff, as far as the

 9     establishment of the 2nd Krajina Corps is concerned, it was included on

10     the 3rd of July, 1992.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Stojanovic

12     please turn off his microphone.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So as far as manning the brigade is

14     concerned --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to switch off your

16     microphone.

17             Please continue your answer, Witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality of Kljuc.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, let take a look at

20     the document.  P520.

21        Q.   You had the opportunity to see that document a moment ago.  You

22     remember this document, General, don't you?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the

24     second page.  Could we zoom in on the stamp of this document.

25        Q.   So this is an order for further action, and it's signed by

Page 34705

 1     Lieutenant-Colonel Samardzija.  The date is the 9th of July, 1992.

 2             Now I'm asking you the following.  Can you recognise this stamp

 3     and what does this stamp say?

 4        A.   This is the stamp of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc, and that

 5     proves that the -- at that time, the 17th Brigade had not been within the

 6     2nd Krajina Corps yet.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 9     ask that document 65 ter -- actually, the one I showed a moment ago 03067

10     be admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number D1032.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, sir, can you tell the Chamber where that village is,

16     Donji Biljani?

17        A.   In the municipality of Kljuc.

18        Q.   Sorry, you were trying to say something.

19        A.   In the territory of the municipality of Kljuc.

20        Q.   How far away is that area from the place where your command post

21     was?

22        A.   Well, I cannot say exactly now in terms of kilometres, but it's

23     certainly more than some 30 kilometres to Kljuc.  Maybe it's even more

24     than that, but I'm not sure.

25        Q.   Today, now that you've seen these documents, do you still stand

Page 34706

 1     by that, namely, that in July, until the 13th of July, 1992, the unit

 2     from Kljuc still hadn't been fully subordinated to the 2nd Krajina Corps?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   One more question, General, sir.

 5             The 30th Krajina Division that is mentioned in this document, the

 6     one that you had an opportunity to see a moment ago and whose commander

 7     is Colonel Stanislav Galic, was it at any point of time within the

 8     2nd Krajina Corps?

 9        A.   Never.  It was never within the 2nd Krajina Corps.

10        Q.   I should conclude with a few questions that have to do with

11     Bihac.

12             General, sir, you said at one moment that the fiercest intensity

13     of fighting in your area of responsibility was at the Bihac front.  Were

14     there ever orders that were issued by the Main Staff or by you

15     personally, as corps commander, to the subordinate units that targets in

16     the town of Bihac and civilian settlements should be hit in a

17     non-selective manner?

18        A.   I never received such an order, and I never issued such an order.

19        Q.   Was there such fighting and was there an exchange of artillery

20     fire between the units of the 5th Corps and the 2nd Corps at the Bihac

21     front?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   As a soldier, how would you assess the intensity of that fighting

24     at the Bihac front while you were commander of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

25        A.   It was a draw.

Page 34707

 1        Q.   I would kindly ask you to explain this a bit to us in language

 2     that would be a bit more acceptable.  What would that mean for you?

 3        A.   Well, we held this line towards Bihac practically 90 per cent of

 4     the time while the war was still on until the Muslims received assistance

 5     from the air and from the Croats, when they pushed us back.  But after an

 6     offensive was launched, we returned to the next position, the one that we

 7     had held earlier on.

 8        Q.   General, sir, thank you for your answers, the answers that have

 9     you provided.  We have no further questions for you.  Thank you very much

10     indeed?

11        A.   Thank you too.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             In view of one of the answers given by the witness and reading

14     the stamp about which the witness was asked, which he said was the stamp

15     of the -- of the Kljuc municipality, I think he said, could we have a --

16     the translation of that stamp being verified?  Because I do, indeed, see

17     Kljuc, opstina of Kljuc.  At least in the English, I think it's in two

18     languages, but I also see skupstina, which is perhaps not the same and I

19     see the translation in English:  "Km of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade"

20     or is that ...?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, might I briefly address it with the

22     witness?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.  But briefly indeed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'll have about five minutes total, if that's all

25     right.

Page 34708

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If interpreters and security, and all us assisting

 2     us, transcription, transcribers, then we are able to let the witness

 3     leave this week and not to return for five minutes next week.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we zoom in very tightly on the large word

 6     "Kljuc" just to the left of the centre of the stamp.

 7                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 8        Q.   Sir, do you see the words "teritorijalne obrane" next to that

 9     word "Kljuc"?

10        A.   It reads Municipal Assembly of Kljuc municipality.

11        Q.   Sir, do you see the specific words I asked you, "teritorijalne

12     obrane," which you're leaving out of what you're reading?

13        A.   I don't see that.

14        Q.   Now --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we zoom out slightly.  That sometimes

16     assists in ...

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the witness doesn't see the

19     enlargement due to the videolink.  But if --

20             Mr. Stojanovic, could you read in the -- or could you confirm

21     that those words are in the stamp?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think I can

23     read it out.

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you would do

25     so, then --

Page 34709

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I can't see the first part

 2     but it says the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then in the next smaller

 3     circle, Kljuc Municipal Assembly.  And in the third circle:  Municipal

 4     staff of the Territorial Defence.  And then in large letters:  Kljuc.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Now, sir, it was, in fact, the municipal staff of the Kljuc

 7     Territorial Defence that weeks, at least a month before this point, had,

 8     in fact, been transformed into the 17th Brigade; right?

 9        A.   Are you asking me?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   It cannot be that the municipal staff was turned into a brigade.

12        Q.   Let's have 65 ter 32434.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you remind the witness that it was not

14     the municipal staff but it's Territorial Defence which you were referring

15     to.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, the municipal Territorial Defence was, in fact, transformed

18     into a brigade.  That happened in Kljuc and Mrkonjic Grad, that you

19     testified about during direct examination; right?

20        A.   Part of the Kljuc Territorial Defence was made part of the

21     17th Brigade.

22        Q.   Now, what we see on our screen now is an order from yourself

23     dated the 7th June 1992.  If we turn to page 2 in both languages, we see

24     the recipient list includes - already on the 7th of June, 1992 - the

25     17th Light Infantry Brigade in Kljuc.  More than a month before the

Page 34710

 1     Biljani incident you had the ability to issue orders to the 17th Brigade,

 2     didn't you?

 3        A.   It was after the agreement between the Chief of Staff and the

 4     30th -- commander of the 30th Partisan Brigade to establish the

 5     17th Brigade which was to become part of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  In order

 6     to do that, it took --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   -- it took a while for the brigade to be formed.

 9        Q.   Sir, this issue is -- this order is issued just one day after

10     P4052 reflected that agreement.  That agreement was implemented

11     immediately and the brigade came under your command.  That's the truth,

12     isn't it?

13        A.   In your terms, the brigade is full and ready immediately to go to

14     a theatre of war.  Well, it doesn't work like that.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm going to make this quick.  We see here you issued orders

16     to the brigade more than a month before Biljani.  We've seen they issued

17     reports to you weeks before Biljani.  You've described how

18     Colonel Samardzija, in late June 1992, orders an operation in Kljuc

19     pursuant to your order for offensive operations.  What you're doing now

20     is you are providing evidence that is not true about the chain of command

21     of this brigade at the time of the Biljani incident to avoid your own

22     responsibility for a massacre committed by soldiers under your command.

23             That's the truth; right?

24        A.   No.  That is your opinion.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

Page 34711

 1     witness.  I'd tendered 65 ter 32434 and D1027 MFI, which I'd used at the

 2     end of cross.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 32434 receives number P7343.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P7343 is admitted into evidence.

 6             And then you said another one, Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  D1027.  That was the Una-Sana minutes, the 14

 8     June minutes that I'd used late in cross and had neglected to tender.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the number -- it's a D exhibit.

10             MR. TRALDI:  It's MFI'd pending a decision and so I'd just ask

11     that it be admitted at this point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and it was MFI'd because there was no

13     translation at the --

14             MR. TRALDI:  It was MFI'd.  It was one of a number of associated

15     exhibits to Witness Erceg's evidence, and numbers were reserved and MFI'd

16     pending a decision.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?  If not ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1027 is now admitted into evidence.

20             MR. TRALDI:  And just the last document I'd ask that 65 ter

21     32449, the exhumation report, be MFI'd pending a translation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And you are invited to see to what extent we could

23     work with an excerpt because it was for a very specific purpose

24     introduced.

25             Madam Registrar, the number to be reserved for the exhumation

Page 34712

 1     report would be.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P7344.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             Have we dealt with all of the exhibits?  No further comments,

 5     Mr. Stojanovic?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  We'd remained to talk about the judgement and

 7     whether any proof of proof-of-death documents were necessary, but we can

 8     do that at any time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything about the interview of the witness?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  As already mentioned what

11     is left is to see whether we can agree on the text of interview conducted

12     by the OTP with this witness.  That is for me and the Prosecutor to do.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have no other problem than that, Mr. Traldi,

14     would you give it some thought as to how that interview would fit within

15     the 92 ter, 92 bis range because the witness did not attest to it.  I

16     don't know for what purposes, how you want to use that, but the Chamber

17     would like to have that very clear, whether you would tender those

18     excerpts for the truth of its content, where the witness has not attested

19     to that truth.  Therefore the Chamber would like to know exactly what we

20     are -- what we will have to decide upon once you tender that excerpt.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Does the Chamber wish to hear at this point.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not at this moment.  We are already at 30

23     minutes but perhaps you do that soon or make a short written submission

24     about it.  I leave it in your hands, but I take it that you are aware of

25     how Rules 92 ter and 92 bis are to be applied and what possible

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 1     consequences there are for this document.

 2             We -- first of all, Mr. Boric, we thank you very much for coming

 3     to the videolink room.  We thank you also for having answered the

 4     questions put to you by the Bench, put to you by the parties, and I wish

 5     you a safe return home again.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We can conclude the videolink.

 8             Then we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Tuesday, the 28th

 9     of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I, but we'll not

10     adjourn until after we have thanked very much all those who have assisted

11     far beyond the usual time that is security, that is interpreters, that is

12     transcribers, and all other staff who supported that.

13             We stand adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.31 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of April,

16                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.