Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34714

 1                           Tuesday, 28 April 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Are there any preliminaries?  I did understand that the

12     Prosecution would like to make a submission on P7331, marked for

13     identification.

14             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  Mr. Traldi, to whom

15     you addressed the inquiry, will address the Court, and I'm going to ask

16     him to move over here where I think it will be easier to communicate.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Good morning, Your Honours.

19             And thank you for giving me the time to address the matter which

20     the President raised at the end of Thursday's session.

21             Our position is that the portions of Witness Boric's OTP

22     interview that we eventually tender are admissible for all purposes and

23     should be admitted for all purposes by the Trial Chamber under Rule 89(C)

24     rather than Rule 92 ter, bis, or quater consistent with what we

25     understand to have been the practice in this trial.

Page 34715

 1             The Tribunal's jurisprudence holds prior inconsistent statements

 2     admissible for the truth of their contents and holds that Rules 92 bis,

 3     ter and quater do not apply in these circumstances.  I'd point to, for

 4     instance, the following authorities:  Paragraph 31 of the Popovic Appeals

 5     Chamber decision of the 1st of February, 2008; the Limaj trial decision

 6     of 25 April 2005; the Seselj trial decision of 11 September 2008;

 7     guidance in the Gotovina case issued on the 30th of March, 2010;

 8     paragraph 19 of the Gotovina Trial Judgement; and paragraph 1289 of the

 9     Djordjevic Trial Judgement.  And if it would assist, I'm prepared to

10     discuss the implications of a couple of those decisions briefly if it

11     would be useful to the Chamber and to the Defence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If could you do that briefly, you're invited to do

13     so.

14             MR. TRALDI:  The Popovic and Limaj decisions, which were both

15     made in the context of a party's cross-examination of adverse witnesses

16     that it had called to the stand itself, addressed the issue in some

17     detail.  Those decisions rejected requests to apply what they described

18     as a traditional common law rule against the admissibility of prior

19     inconsistent statements for the truth of their contents, noting both that

20     such a rule is, in those decisions' view, inapplicable to a mixed system

21     where fact-finding is made by professional judges rather than by juries

22     and noting the recent trend even in common law countries towards

23     admitting prior inconsistent statements for all purposes.

24             One example of the evaluation of such evidence can be found in

25     the Djordjevic trial judgement regarding official notes conducted by a

Page 34716

 1     working group of RJB Serbia, and the Djordjevic Appeals Chamber in

 2     paragraphs 395 through 397 of the appeals judgement explicitly addressed

 3     the Trial Chamber's reliance on those notes, the Trial Chamber's analysis

 4     of those notes, and found the Trial Chamber did not err in rejecting

 5     contradictory witness evidence.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you kindly slow down for the

 7     interruption.  Thank you.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.

 9             And did not err in relying on those notes for a set of meetings

10     for which they were the only evidence.

11             Our understanding of the approach in this trial is based in part

12     on the Chamber's guidance of 19 June 2012, which encouraged the parties

13     if they were concerned about the possibility of witnesses recanting

14     previously given evidence to lead the witnesses viva voce and then tender

15     their previously given evidence as prior inconsistent statements

16     consistent with the jurisprudence of the Tribunal; in other words, as we

17     understood it, to tender such prior statements for the truth of their

18     contents consistent with the Popovic and Limaj decisions, among others,

19     that I'd referred to earlier.

20             More recently, the Chamber inquired as to what purpose

21     Miodrag Dragutinovic's previous statements, P7156 and P7157, were being

22     tendered.  The Prosecution took the position that the material should

23     come in for all purposes.  We understand the Chamber to have accepted

24     that position.

25             Turning briefly to the specific instance.  Mr. Boric's evidence

Page 34717

 1     is a paradigmatic case for the admission of prior statements for all

 2     purposes.  His prior statements were made in an audio recorded interview

 3     in which he was informed of his rights, asked if he wished to have a

 4     lawyer present, advised that if he chose to answer questions his answers

 5     would be recorded and could be used in evidence.  These prior statements

 6     thus have substantial indicia of reliability.  The Trial Chamber can

 7     evaluate his statements in light of his testimony both in general and on

 8     the same points and in light of other evidence in the record and

 9     determine the credibility of specific evidence provided during his

10     interview and during his testimony on that basis.

11             Now, just as a note, regarding that reliability point, we don't

12     always tender, for instance, a witness's solemn declaration when we

13     tender parts of previous testimony because we understand, and I think the

14     Defence will confirm, that there is no dispute that testimony at ICTY is

15     given pursuant a solemn declaration.  In this instance to facilitate the

16     Chamber's review, we would intend to tender portions of the interview

17     which reflect the procedural safe-guards that I mentioned above.

18             Just to discuss one example very briefly regarding the operation

19     including the massacre in Biljani.  Looking at his testimony, Mr. Boric

20     first claimed he was not aware of the operation at all.  Later, after

21     saying he probably or maybe stood by portions of his interview related to

22     the details of that operation, testified that he was probably aware of it

23     as it was being carried out.

24             The Chamber, of course, can evaluate all of that evidence

25     together and determine what of his evidence it attaches weight to.

Page 34718

 1             For completeness, Your Honours, there is one instance I'm aware

 2     of where we've indicated that we would not rely on a prior inconsistent

 3     statement for the truth of its contents.  I'd respectfully submit that

 4     instance supports this interpretation of the jurisprudence.  We made that

 5     representation in the context of a prior statement by

 6     Witness Veselinovic, which we put to him, and he agreed, contained a

 7     number of untruthful statements, to the point that our case, as we put it

 8     to him, was that "almost nothing in the statement is true."

 9             Our representation was specific to that instance and would not

10     have been necessary except that previous inconsistent statements

11     otherwise are admissible for the truth of their contents.  We were simply

12     making clear on the record that there was no dispute that the contents of

13     that statement, now P6910, were not true before asking the Chamber to

14     rule on admission.  And that had the effect of clarifying we were not in

15     the typical situation where such statements are admitted for all

16     purposes.

17             We'd submit, however, that we are in that typical situation here,

18     as we were with the other witnesses with whom this issue has arisen.

19     Witness Boric's previous interview and the portions used with him during

20     court are relevant, reliable, and admissible for the truth of their

21     contents, in our submission, pursuant to Rule 89(C).

22             And that completes the submission I'd intended to make on the

23     matter, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

25             Could I take you back to page 2, line 24, 25, and then the first

Page 34719

 1     lines of page 3.  Could you repeat them because I think that not all of

 2     it is recorded.  You started by saying:

 3             "One example of the evaluation of such evidence can be found ..."

 4             And could you resume from there.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can be found in the Djordjevic trial judgement.

 6     That Trial Chamber was analysing Official Notes taken by a working group

 7     of RJB Serbia.  They were admitted for all purposes.  And it analysed

 8     those notes and the weight to be afforded them in its judgement; for

 9     instance, in paragraphs 1289 and 2113.  The Djordjevic Appeals Chamber in

10     paragraphs 395 through 397 ... and this portion appears to be included in

11     its entirety.  So I can repeat it, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think that's on the record, but there was a

13     large missing part.  That's now on the transcript.  I would have -- in

14     relation to that specific portion, I would have the following question.

15     SJB notes are not taken for Tribunal purposes.  Isn't it true that at

16     least --

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  RJB.  That at least at some points in time the fact

19     whether a statement was taken for Tribunal purposes or was taken by other

20     agencies made a difference, and therefore I wonder to what extent when

21     relying on these Official Notes whether that is similar to the situation

22     we have here where the interview was conducted by Tribunal officers.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I'd referred to that -- and I take the point,

24     Mr. President.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond.

25             I'd referred to the Djordjevic example to illustrate how trial

Page 34720

 1     chambers have addressed such evidence regarding the admissibility of

 2     prior inconsistent statements taken for Tribunal purposes.  The Seselj

 3     decision to which I referred earlier, for instance, addresses that

 4     question squarely.  And I think the Gotovina guidance in citing the

 5     Seselj decision, at least implicitly, adopts that rationale.  And I can

 6     check whether the other cases -- I don't remember at the moment the

 7     source of the statements at issue in Limaj, and in -- and in Gotovina.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, any response.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a couple of sentences,

11     Your Honours.  Good morning.

12             We carefully followed the arguments referring to the prosecutor's

13     suggestions using -- in relation to the evidence in the cross-examination

14     of Mr. Boric.  We are taking into account the arguments and we would like

15     to quote court practice.

16             The fact is that at this point we have different standpoints on

17     the application of Rule 89 of the Rules, so we would kindly ask you to

18     give us until Monday so that we could state our position on this proposal

19     by the Prosecution.  I come from a different system in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina prompting me to take a different position, and I understand

21     the Prosecution's position, so that is why we would like to have time,

22     until Monday, to be able to state our own response to that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have until Monday.  I immediately add to

24     that, Mr. Stojanovic, that the fact that you come from a different system

25     not necessarily prompts you to take a different position because all

Page 34721

 1     parties are supposed to rely on the practice developed in this Tribunal.

 2     Please keep that in mind, but we'll hear from you by next Monday.

 3             Any other matter to be raised?  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             I don't know if my learned friend finished?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I -- I had.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  My topic is not even close interesting legally as the

 9     previous one.

10             I just wanted to draw your attention, Your Honours, that we were

11     scheduled to sit on May 22nd as a way of compensation for the next

12     non-working week.  But since this next week is working for us now, we

13     have to go into the field in regard of re-opening of the Tomasica case.

14     We think that there is nothing to be compensated, and we would ask to --

15     for our organisational purposes, bringing witnesses, buying the tickets,

16     going into the field, to ask you whether you would reconsider your

17     decision to sit on Friday, 22nd of May this year.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, when we considered to compensate for

19     other days, that was in an earlier stage.  The Chamber has decided that

20     we'll set on the 20 May as scheduled, although -- the 22nd of May.  We'll

21     sit as scheduled, although the context in which this decision is now to

22     be considered is slightly different from when we gave that decision.

23     Many other days we're not sitting which were not known yet when we

24     decided to sit on the 22nd of May, so the compensation issue may have

25     been slightly changed, but we'll sit on the 22nd of May.

Page 34722

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No other preliminaries.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, just very briefly, and the witness, I

 4     assume, can be brought in for it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness already be escorted into the

 6     courtroom.  That would be Mr. Andric, I take it.

 7             Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Purely for the record a leftover matter from

 9     Witness Boric's testimony.  At the end of the first session on Thursday,

10     I'd used 65 ter 32447 which I neglected to tender.  I am sure my friends

11     may need a little bit of time to express a position, but I'd just ask

12     that we be informed if there are any objections to its admission.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, are you already in a position to

14     respond or would you rather take the next 48 hours?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It would be a good thing to

16     wait, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber would like to hear within the next

18     48 hours.

19             Please proceed.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Andric.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

24     make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

25     May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

Page 34723

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR ANDRIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Andric.  Please be seated.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 9             The Court may have anticipated me, I don't know, but I think a

10     90(E) advisement would be appropriate in this instance as was the case in

11     previous testimony.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objection to that,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the protection of your own witness,

15     Mr. Stojanovic.

16             Mr. Andric, before we start hearing your evidence, I'd like to

17     draw your attention to Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

18     and I'll first read it to you.  It reads:

19             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

20     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

21     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

22     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

23     offence other than false testimony."

24             This means that if a question is put to you and if you would

25     think that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate yourself, that you

Page 34724

 1     may address me and ask to be relieved from answering that question.  The

 2     Chamber will then decide whether you are or not.  Is that clear to you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Andric, you'll first be examined by

 5     Mr. Stojanovic.  You find Mr. Stojanovic standing to your left.  And

 6     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andric.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   Since we both speak relatively quickly, I would like to ask you

13     to try to be as slow as possible because of the transcript.

14             And I would like to ask you, as is customary here, to tell us

15     your first and last name.

16        A.   My name is Svetozar Andric, son of Petko.

17        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, Mr. Andric, if at one

18     point you told Mr. Karadzic's Defence -- or you provided a written

19     statement to the Karadzic Defence and you answered questions which were

20     put to you at that time?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

23     65 ter 1D04788 in e-court, please.  And could we also look at the last

24     page of the document.

25        Q.   Mr. Andric, do you recognise the signature on this document?

Page 34725

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Whose signature is that?

 3        A.   It's my signature.

 4        Q.   And the date on the left-hand side of the document, what about

 5     that?

 6        A.   The 16th of July, 2013.

 7        Q.   Is that something that you wrote in your own hand?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Andric, did you have the opportunity to read the statement

10     again while you were preparing to appear before the Tribunal today?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And now that you have refreshed your recollection about the

13     contents of the statement, if I were to put the same questions to you now

14     as were put to you then and after having given the solemn declaration to

15     speak the truth and nothing but the truth, would you give identical

16     answers to those questions that were then put to you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And would those answers be the full truth and your full knowledge

19     about the matters that you spoke about in answer to the questions that

20     were then put to you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

24     tender the statement of Andric, Svetozar which bears the 65 ter number

25     1D04788.

Page 34726

 1             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Mr. President.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement receives number

 3     D1033.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would also like

 7     to tender three accompanying documents which bears 65 ter numbers 04702,

 8     1D04789, and 1D04790.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any ...

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 04702 receives number D1034.

14             1D4789 receives number D1035.

15             And 1D4790 receives number D1036.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D1034 through D1036 are admitted.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  With

18     your leave, I would like to read the summary of the statement of

19     Svetozar Andric.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Short summary, I take it.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Within the guide-lines that you

24     set.

25             Witness Svetozar Andric is a professional military officer and is

Page 34727

 1     retired now in the rank of lieutenant-general.  He joined the VRS on the

 2     19th of May, 1992 -- actually, there, since 19th of May 1992, he

 3     performed during the war and after the war a series of responsible duties

 4     beginning as commander of the Birac Brigade, then he was the Chief of

 5     Staff of the Drina Corps, and then retired in 2002 from the post of

 6     commander of the VRS 5th Corps.

 7             In his statement, he will talk about the beginning of the war in

 8     the Birac area about the forming of the VRS units in that area after the

 9     JNA left, about the time and manner in which brigades were organised,

10     brigades which later joined the Drina Corps.  He will explain the

11     documents dating from May and June 1992 which refer to questions and

12     problems in the system of command and control and particularly those

13     relating to unity of command in those initial days.

14             He will explain his position during his testimony in the setting

15     up of the camp for prisoners of war Susica, about the problems of the

16     population that was moving out, and the treatment of prisoners of war.

17     He will also talk about the intensity of the fighting with the enemy in

18     the area of responsibility of his unit, and about crimes against the

19     Serbian population in the Birac area.

20             He will also talk about the tasks, the role, and the movements of

21     his unit in the Krivaja 95 action.  He will describe in detail the

22     movements of his units as well as his personal participation in the

23     action, starting from the 5th of July, 1995, in the broader sector of

24     Srebrenica, the intelligence data about the strength of the enemy who did

25     not abide by their obligation to demilitarise the enclave, about the

Page 34728

 1     meeting with General Mladic in the Viogor village sector, the order to

 2     continue the action towards Zepa, and the fighting that his unit waged in

 3     this sector.

 4             He returned to the headquarters in Sekovici with his unit on the

 5     2nd of August, 1995.  And on the 6th of August, 1995, the hand-over of

 6     duty of the brigade commander took place between him and the new

 7     commander, after which he practically took over the post of Chief of

 8     Staff of the Drina Corps to which he was appointed in the interim by an

 9     establishment decree.

10             Now, I would like to put some questions to the witness in order

11     to clarify a couple of things from the statement.

12        Q.   Let us please focus on paragraph 13, D1033.

13        A.   I'm sorry, I cannot see it on the monitor.

14        Q.   You'll see it very quickly, General.  Paragraph 13 of your

15     statement.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could you please zoom in a

17     bit?  Thank you.

18        Q.   Can you see it now, General?

19        A.   Yes, yes, but I'd need to have bigger letters, if possible.

20        Q.   In this paragraph, you speak about the situation in the eastern

21     part of Birac and the central area at Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and

22     Glogova.  In order to make your statement as concrete as possible, please

23     tell us about the torched Serb villages and the number of victims.  Where

24     did you get these figures when you gave such an answer in your statement?

25        A.   Your Honours, esteemed Mr. Stojanovic, in view of the time that

Page 34729

 1     we have available, it's probably limited, I will try to refer to a

 2     particular period when the Serb people suffered, that is the period from

 3     end of September 1992 until mid-January 1993.  In order for this to be

 4     clearer to you, we shall start from the 24th of September, 1991, when a

 5     purely Serb village, Podravanje, in the municipality of Vlasenica, was

 6     torched.  On that occasion, 70 Serb houses were torched, 32 persons lost

 7     their lives, 16 were wounded, 43 went missing, 94 managed to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Andric, I stop you.  The question was where did

 9     you get the figures?  You are now explaining what happened, but the

10     question was a different one.  Could you tell us where did you get those

11     figures?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, I will

13     say that.  But in order to have a full answer, I need to provide an

14     explanation.

15             This information comes from the documentation centre

16     Republika Srpska, so I kindly ask -- I'll be very brief, but in the

17     coming period it's very important for me to explain all of this.

18             Then on the 26th in the municipality of Vlasenica, we --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what is important for us is what is asked,

20     and you've answered that question, that you got the figures from this

21     documentation centre.  And if Mr. Stojanovic wants to know further

22     details, he'll ask you.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   I would just like to ask General Andric to focus on page 15, line

Page 34730

 1     23 of today's transcript.  What happened in the village of Podravanje

 2     that you spoke about?  Did that happen on the 24th of September 1991 or

 3     in 1992.

 4        A.   It happened in 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted to clarify the record while we are

 6     still here.

 7             General, sir, in view of the time and the way in which we

 8     function in this courtroom, my next question will be as follows.  The

 9     data that you have and that you tried to analyse according to events,

10     village, et cetera, is that what you speak of in paragraph 13, the number

11     of killed civilians and the number of Serb villages torched?

12        A.   Yes.  I just wish to speak about this concrete period; that is to

13     say, from September 1992 until January 1993.  I would like to continue

14     along those lines.

15             After the 24th came the 26th and --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no.  It's not for you to decide what is

17     relevant and important at this moment.  That's for the parties.  So

18     unless specifically asked about a certain event, you should just answer

19     the questions.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

22        Q.   That is going to be my next question precisely, but please bear

23     in mind what you have just been told.  Give us specifically these events

24     that you wish to refer to and that add up to this number.

25        A.   The 26th in Vlasenica, the attack on Rogosija, 29 people were

Page 34731

 1     killed and 30 were wounded and an entire Serb village was torched and

 2     property destroyed.

 3             Then on the 6th of November an attack from Kamenica.  The attack

 4     was carried out by Naser Oric personally with his troops from Srebrenica,

 5     120 persons were killed, most of them civilians, five villages were

 6     torched.  Pathologists from the military medical academy documented that.

 7     That is a crime that is unheard of.

 8             Then on the 14th of December, the attack against the municipality

 9     of Bratunac where Sikiric, Loznica, and Bjelovac were torched - three

10     villages, therefore - 58 persons were killed, 70 were wounded.  All of

11     these three villages were looted and torched.

12             Then the attack against the local commune of Kravica on the 7th

13     of January, 1992; that is to say -- actually, 1993.  Sorry.  On Orthodox

14     Christmas Day.  48 persons were killed and over 50 were wounded and four

15     were taken prisoner.  17 Serb villages were torched and looted.

16             Then the municipality of Skelani was destroyed -- or rather

17     attacked.  The local commune, rather, of Skelani.  Then 62 persons were

18     killed, 82 persons were wounded, 5 were taken to a camp for civilians,

19     and over there in prison in Srebrenica two were killed on the spot due to

20     the beatings they had suffered.  The total number of victims is 371,

21     fatalities that is.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the number, how

23     many Serb villages were torched.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is only within five months.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  The interpreters did not catch how much

Page 34732

 1     villages were torched.  Could you give the numbers again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 33 with regard to these six

 3     events.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Thank you, General, for your assistance.

 6        A.   Sorry, I would just like to say one more thing.  In the

 7     municipalities of Skelani and Bratunac, up until 1993, the month of

 8     March, about 1322 persons were killed.  Out of them, 750 were civilians;

 9     522 were military conscripts.  If we look at the percentage, we will see

10     that 12 per cent of the fatalities were women.  Also 12 per cent were

11     over 65.  And 3 per cent were children that were under age.  So the

12     question is:  Could these people have been armed?  Could they have taken

13     part in armed --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- first of all, Mr. Tieger, is there

15     dispute about -- that in a large number of villages in that period of

16     time a large number of Muslims, Muslim civilians were killed -- Serbs.

17     I'm ...

18             MR. TIEGER:  Without respect to particular statistics, I think

19     the Court is well aware of the fact that the -- and I believe that

20     question was answered most recently I think by Mr. Traldi in a similar --

21     or maybe Mr. Jeremy in a similar situation posed by the Court.  Of

22     course, there's no dispute that there were atrocities on both sides or

23     all sides to the conflict at various times and during this period of time

24     as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You would not cross-examine the witness in order to

Page 34733

 1     test the reliability of those figures?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  It's not my intention, no.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, this also demonstrates - and for

 4     you, Witness, as well - it demonstrates that it's a waste of time what we

 5     are doing now because there's no dispute about larger numbers of Serb

 6     civilians being killed in a large number of villages during that period

 7     of time.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, you -- you could have known this.  Please

 9     proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't hear today

11     from my learned friend from the Prosecution that this is not in dispute,

12     the number of victims, the places --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the question is whether all the specific

14     locations, whether those are relevant or not, the way in which it is

15     presented, I think, finds no -- no dispute with the Prosecution apart,

16     perhaps, from details, and I thought that that's the gist of what this

17     witness wanted to tell us as we find it in his statement.  I think I was

18     clear that we don't have to know the names of one -- all 150 Serb

19     villages, neither would it assist us to have a calculation which amounts

20     exactly to thousands.  That you didn't hear it today from the -- earlier

21     from the Prosecution is most likely because you didn't ask, and the

22     parties are invited and are expected to focus on what really is in

23     dispute.

24             Please proceed.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 34734

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall proceed, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Let us please take a look at paragraph 17 of the witness's

 3     statement, that is now D1033.

 4             Paragraph 17.  Just a brief question for the sake of

 5     clarification, Mr. Andric.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You say around the middle of paragraph 17:

 8             "On the 8th of July, the unit was ordered to carry out the task

 9     along the axis of Jasenovac-Caurka-Kostur-Alibegovac."

10             I would like to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether this

11     axis along your unit moved, as you were ordered in the task issued on the

12     8th of July, did that include the villages that were inside or outside

13     the boundaries of the enclave according to the demilitarisation agreement

14     from 1993?

15        A.   Specifically these villages, Klokoc, Caurka, Kostur, were outside

16     the protected area.  These were fortifications of the enemy.  We had

17     fighting there and that was precisely one of the objectives, to separate

18     the two enclaves, to resolve the issue of these three locations.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And I'd like to finish by asking you something about

20     paragraph 26 of your statement.  Please take a look at paragraph 26 of

21     your statement.  That is to say, D1033.

22             Mr. Andric, you speak about the hand-over of duty here and also

23     where you went after that.  However, I would like to ask you for the sake

24     of clarification to tell us in a bit more detail what your duties were

25     and where you went from the 8th of August, 1995, onwards; that is to say,

Page 34735

 1     when you were appointed Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.

 2        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic, after receiving duty on the 8th of

 3     August, in the period from the 14th and 15th of August, I was in Krajina.

 4     At that time, there was one unit from the Drina Corps that was helping

 5     out there.  My wife's brother was killed there on that occasion.  I was

 6     supposed to get him out, but I didn't manage to.  Then on the 16th of

 7     September until the 22nd, I was in the area of Novi Grad, Bosanski Novi

 8     in order to pull out 60 of our soldiers who had remained encircled there.

 9             After arriving in the command of the Drina Corps on the 26th of

10     September and then until the 20th of October, I was in the area of the

11     Krajina, Mrkonjic Grad, Kljuc with a tactical unit, a tactical group, at

12     brigade level, where I was in charge on behalf of the Drina Corps to lead

13     that group.

14             On the 20th of October, I returned to the command of the

15     Drina Corps.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andric.  And those would be the questions the

17     Defence had for you at this point in time.  Thank you very much, indeed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

21             Mr. Andric, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Tieger.  You find

22     Mr. Tieger to your right.  Mr. Tieger is counsel for the Prosecution.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

25        Q.   Good morning, General.  We have about ten minutes before our

Page 34736

 1     first recess --

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   -- so I'll address a few questions until that point.

 4             In addition to your previous testimony in the Karadzic case,

 5     which Mr. Stojanovic mentioned, you also testified about some of the

 6     events described in your statement in this Court before -- in Belgrade in

 7     the trial of Mr. Grujic and Branko Popovic, among others - that is,

 8     Branko Popovic also known as Marko Pavlovic - in January 2007; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you testified under oath in that proceeding; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And so I presume your position is that you also told the truth to

13     that court?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In the time we have, I wanted to ask you about some of the

16     backdrop to a number of the orders that are mentioned; that is, the

17     orders in late May by you that are mentioned in your statement.

18             So first of all, this Court has received evidence, that's P2799,

19     that on the 12th of May, 1992, the Assembly of the Serbian People in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina made a decision on forming the Army of the Serbian

21     Republic, and Article 2 of that decision provided that former units and

22     staffs of Territorial Defence are renamed into commands and units of the

23     army whose organisation and formation will be established by the

24     president of the republic.

25             That's consistent with your understanding of what transpired at

Page 34737

 1     that time.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On the 18th of May in a meeting with General Mladic which is

 4     reflected in his notebook, he told you that you were going to be the

 5     commander of the Birac Brigade; correct?  And that's P352, e-court pages

 6     356 through 358 in English and 366 in B/C/S.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you, indeed, took over the brigade from then-acting

 9     Commander Tacic on the 19th of May, 1992; correct?

10        A.   18th of May.  On the 19th of May, the units were already in

11     Serbia.

12        Q.   So that's the point at which Tacic left and you took over?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, he asked you to stay and organise people in the area and to

15     form brigades from the existing territorial units staffs; correct?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who is "he"?  Is it Tacic?

17             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry -- Tacic.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked me to form a brigade, not

19     brigades.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   Correct.  Thank you.  So with that clarification, Tacic asked you

22     to form a brigade from the existing territorial unit staffs.  And that's

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  And in that context, the Birac Brigade was supposed to

Page 34738

 1     take over all the competencies of the TO Staffs; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  From the 6th of June when the TO Staffs ceased to exist and

 3     the commands of units of army -- of the Army of Republika Srpska came

 4     into being.  From the 6th.

 5        Q.   Well, we'll look at the 6th June order in a moment.  But prior to

 6     that time, you had been instructed by Tacic -- or asked by Tacic,

 7     consistent with the 12 May decision on forming the army, to form your

 8     brigade from the existing TOs.  And in that context, you gave orders to

 9     the -- the existing TO Staffs to undertake certain actions, including

10     providing you with units; correct?

11        A.   No.  The following is correct, if you permit me.  Colonel Tacic

12     handed over a file, complete documentation of the brigade, and all he

13     said was, "May God help you.  I'm going."  And that was it.

14        Q.   Understood.  And I believe you've stated that previously.  My

15     question was a bit different.  I understand that Tacic left and left you

16     with responsibility to address the situation.  But you referred to the --

17     to 6 June, on which date there was an order that we'll see in a moment.

18     That was the order to absorb or incorporate the existing TO Staffs and

19     the units in their entirety; correct?

20        A.   Renamed.

21        Q.   Right.

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Gradually to rename them to the commands

23     of the Army of Republika Srpska, and in some municipalities this lasted

24     for weeks.

25        Q.   But prior to that time, consistent with the 12 May decision that

Page 34739

 1     we referred to earlier and consistent with what Tacic told you about

 2     assuming all the competencies, you gave orders to those TO Staffs to

 3     yield units, to form units to undertake or not undertake actions and so

 4     on; right?

 5        A.   I did not issue such an order.  I acted pursuant to an order of

 6     the 15th of May, 1992, from Colonel Tacic.  Pursuant to an order.  You

 7     have that document.

 8        Q.   I wasn't suggesting that you initiated the process, General, just

 9     that you followed up on that by issuing necessary orders to the TO Staffs

10     as required; correct?

11        A.   Individually, yes, correct.  Because all actions were carried out

12     pursuant to the order by Tacic.

13        Q.   Well, we will, in a moment after the adjournment, get to the

14     issue of whether or not you have consistently maintained that all actions

15     were carried out pursuant to the order by Tacic.  But before then, let me

16     continue with some of the chronology that leads to the --

17             MR. TIEGER:  I see the time.

18        Q.   Perhaps it won't be before that.  When we resume after the break,

19     I will just address one more item before we discuss some of those orders.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, Mr. Andric.  We'd like to see

21     you back in 20 minutes.  You may now follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

Page 34740

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 3     the courtroom again.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Perhaps we can meanwhile call up 65 ter 31629 and go

 5     to -- well, we'll leave it at the cover.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We will proceed.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   General, just before we adjourned I indicated that I had one

10     additional document I wanted to bring to your attention by way of

11     backdrop before discussing some of the documents and orders mentioned in

12     your statement.  On the screen now before you, you see a document dated

13     20 May 1992 from General Dencic, as you will see on the last page of the

14     document in the moment.  And it's a document describing the current

15     political and military situation.

16             First of all, Dencic was the commander of the 17th Corps of the

17     JNA which formed the basis of the East Bosnia Corps, correct, and he

18     became - at least for a time - the commander of the East Bosnia Corps; is

19     that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could turn to page 2 in the English and

22     page 2 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   There we see toward the top of the page in English and in the

24     second paragraph in B/C/S, General Dencic indicates, in this case four

25     days after the strategic objectives were announced at the 16th Assembly

Page 34741

 1     Session in Banja Luka, that the situation is that the Serbian people

 2     "must struggle for complete separation from the Muslim and Croatian

 3     peoples and form its own state."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we scroll up in the English version, please.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   And, General, you were made aware either directly through this

 8     document or from general information provided by the command of the

 9     East Bosnia Corps of this position of the political and military

10     leadership regarding the need for complete separation from the Muslim and

11     Croatian peoples; correct?

12        A.   No, I wasn't informed about that.

13        Q.   Were you aware of the strategic objectives?

14        A.   I couldn't have known on the 20th in view of the fact that on the

15     19th I had just arrived in the area of responsibility of the future

16     brigade.  On the 20th, I was asking myself, "Here did I come?"  I needed

17     to get acquainted with the situation and find my feet.

18        Q.   Yeah.  Eventually, however, this information, that is, the

19     information we've just focused on regarding the need for complete

20     separation, was conveyed to you; correct?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   So it's your position before this Court that you were never aware

23     during the entire pendency of your service in the VRS of the objective of

24     separation from the Muslim and Croats; is that correct?

25        A.   Well, you're putting a different question now.  First you asked

Page 34742

 1     specifically about the date.  And it's normal when Bosnia was illegally

 2     recognised as a sovereign country that the government, or rather the

 3     Serbian state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, reached the decision on the

 4     7th --

 5        Q.   General, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Sorry to interrupt you.

 6     I'm not asking you for your dissertation on the logic of the situation.

 7     I focused you on what General Dencic stated in his military and political

 8     situation assessment.  You indicated that you were not aware of that on

 9     the 20th, the date this was issued, and then I asked you if you became

10     aware of that.  And you indicated no.  So that's all I'm clarifying.  Did

11     you become aware of the fact that one of the political and military

12     objectives was complete separation from the Muslim and Croats?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   After the referendum on the 1st of March, 1992, when the Muslims

16     voted to remain in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbs then said no, we

17     will remain in Yugoslavia.

18        Q.   I take it that's by way of your explanation for how you consider

19     that this military and political situation assessment came about.  That

20     wasn't my question but we'll move forward.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I would tender 65 ter 31629.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7345.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Can we now call up P466.

Page 34743

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   General, this is a document dated 28 May 1992 which bears your

 4     name and signature.  First of all, this is your order; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And that is your signature; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   This is an order of the 28th of May, 1992, to the Zvornik

 9     Territorial Defence Staff.  And as we can see, it begins by noting that

10     nothing had been done until that date to set up the 6th Infantry Brigade,

11     the AA Defence Light Artillery Division or the tank company, preventing

12     you from placing those units under your command.

13             And then after that preface, you go on, pursuant to the order on

14     the organisation of defence dated 15 May 1992 by Colonel Tacic, order a

15     number of things including the -- ordering the Zvornik TO Staff to carry

16     out the formation of those previously mentioned units; correct?

17        A.   May I just correct you?  The heading does not deal with the

18     formation of the 6th Infantry Brigade but the 6th Infantry Battalion.

19     This is a major difference.  The rest is correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But be that as it may, the document says

22     "brigade."  Are you saying the document is incorrect; therefore, you're

23     correcting it?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least in the English it says --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, in the English.

Page 34744

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  PB stands for what?  Could you tell us that,

 2     Witness?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's an infantry battalion.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the translation may have to be revised.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  We'll be happy to submit it for that purpose,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it's possible at all because B, battalion,

 9     brigade, both words start, at least in English, with a B, and from what I

10     understand also in the B/C/S.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, but I think for "brigade" there is

12     a different acronym, like Br.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be --

14             MR. LUKIC:  A brigade cannot form brigade.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  That will be revised.  Let's move on

16     meanwhile in the understanding of the answer the witness has given as to

17     the battalion rather than brigade.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   And then in item 6 of the order, you direct that:

21             "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and

22     co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried

23     out.  Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military

24     service are to be placed in camps for exchange."

25             Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement, General, you state that

Page 34745

 1     the -- and that is your statement that was admitted here in Court today.

 2     You state that the order to move out Muslim residents "referred to only

 3     those Muslims who expressed the wish to go."  Correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   Now, with respect to this last item, the Birac Serbian Autonomous

 6     Region, or District, government adopted the same order; correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  If we can call up quickly P190.

10        Q.   That's an order of the 31st of May, 1992, by you.  And as we see

11     in the preface, it references that decision by the Birac Serbian

12     Autonomous Region government; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Okay.  And the decision by the Birac government, SAO government,

15     was adopted for the same reasons as your order; correct?

16        A.   The decision by the SAO Birac government is something that I

17     don't know what it was based on.  You have to ask them.  But I can say

18     that it was adopted.  But in my opinion, which may or may not be true,

19     but on the 22nd of May, 1992, an agreement was signed between all the

20     parties and Madam Ogata on the way in which the population will move out,

21     and I think that the leadership was guided by that agreement, by those

22     signatures on the agreement.

23        Q.   Well, General, I was referring specifically to paragraph 4 of the

24     statement that was admitted in evidence here in Court today where you

25     state -- and you discuss item 6 of this order and state that:

Page 34746

 1             "It is for these very reasons that the local civil authorities

 2     also adopted the decision to organise the moving out of the Muslims."

 3             So you state that --

 4        A.   I accept that.  I do, I accept it.

 5        Q.   And I directed your attention to that, in particular, General,

 6     because, in fact, the official reason given at the time, that is given

 7     contemporaneously for this order to move out the Muslims, was not that it

 8     was a response to requests by Muslims to be permitted to leave but that

 9     it was adopted as a result of crimes Muslim extremists carried out

10     against Serbs in the area.  That was the reason given at the time for the

11     order to move out the Muslims; correct?

12        A.   That was in one paragraph of the Serbian government decision.

13     I -- I read it.  It's one of the reasons.  But as far as Muslims, Croats,

14     and Serbs are concerned, that was the date they agreed to move out the

15     population.  The government of Birac called upon the population of Tuzla,

16     Kladanj, and other places to organise the safe moving out of the

17     population, taking particular care about the protection of each of the

18     three ethnic groups.

19        Q.   The intention to address the perceived problem of crimes carried

20     out against Serbs by armed Muslims would not be addressed, General, would

21     it, by the -- by a course of action to simply allow those Muslims who

22     wished to leave to depart in an organised way, would it?  In short, if

23     you are concerned about the people who are attacking you and want to

24     fight, letting a certain number of other people go is not going to

25     address that problem.

Page 34747

 1        A.   The question is not clear to me.  I don't understand it.

 2        Q.   General, the question is this:  The Birac -- this decision to

 3     move out the Muslims was officially described as the result of - and,

 4     therefore, the intention to address - crimes allegedly committed against

 5     Serbs in the area, and that meant moving out Muslims whether they wanted

 6     to or not; right?

 7        A.   That's one segment.  One segment.  And there are many segments.

 8     In the area of responsibility of the Birac Brigade and in the

 9     municipality, there were many armed individuals, units of the TO, units

10     of the Crisis Staffs of local communes on the Muslim side.  Then there

11     were many paramilitary formations that were dangerous, dangerous from a

12     security point of view not only for Muslims but also for Serbs, and I

13     think that the leadership was guided by other segments, including this

14     one; that is to say, stop and prevent liquidations on both sides because

15     we had armed people then at that time.  Also, soldiers in civilian

16     clothes, screening, triage had to take place in order to see who did

17     what.  All of these are segments that the government of SAO Birac was

18     guided by, and of course my order was written in that context as well.

19     Not at a single moment was it written in order to have somebody killed.

20     On the contrary.  The only aim was to protect people.

21        Q.   General, this Court has received evidence that on June 6th, in

22     the official publication Javnost, the decision to move out the Muslims

23     was announced, the reason given as stated in Javnost is:

24             "The government decided to take this step as a result of crimes

25     Muslim extremists carried out against Serbs in the area."

Page 34748

 1             And no other reason is given.  That's P3737.

 2             Were you aware at the time, General, that the only official

 3     reason given for the decision to move out the Muslims was that it was

 4     taken because of crimes allegedly carried out against Serbs in the area

 5     by Muslim extremists?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly

 8     ask - perhaps if would be fairer towards the witness - to be given P3737

 9     so that he could see what it is that the Prosecutor is asking him about.

10             MR. TIEGER:  No problem.  I thought the question was brief enough

11     that it didn't require that.  But if we could call up P3737, please.

12        Q.   You'll see that on the top left, General, and you will be able to

13     quickly see the reference that I made:  The government decided to take

14     this step as a result of crimes Muslim extremists carried out against

15     Serbs in the area.

16        A.   Well, if we want to go back, I can.  I thought that was a waste

17     of time.  I Just referred to one segment.  This is what date, the 30th of

18     May, is it?  Is that right, the 30th of May?  We'll be being back.

19        Q.   The article refers to the decision of the 30th of May.

20        A.   Well, let me just tell you the Tuzla column occurred on the 15th

21     of May.  You know yourself how many people were killed then.  Let's not

22     waste time now.  Then the municipality of Kalesija, where I was born by

23     the way.  All the Serb villages.  All the people there were killed.  Also

24     on the 7th of April, the Muslim side organised units and they stopped a

25     column of the regular army.  Please.  You asked me about this.

Page 34749

 1        Q.   General, I'm sorry -- no, I didn't ask you that question, sir.

 2     Let me -- can I assume based on your answer -- General, can I assume

 3     based on what you're just saying that you're explaining to me why this

 4     decision was adopted for those reasons, for the reason given in the

 5     article; correct?  You explained to me the backdrop -- what you say is

 6     the backdrop to the decision to move out the Muslims as a result of

 7     crimes committed against Serbs; right?

 8        A.   I can just speak of one segment.

 9        Q.   And if we have the -- that's the information, okay.  And you're

10     indicating to me you're speaking about that particular segment of what

11     you understand to be the order.  I think you've made that clear before.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

13     speaker.  There are too many microphones on.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   General, the interpreters could not hear your last remark.  If

16     you could repeat it, please.

17        A.   What I said is that that is only part of that segment.  But you

18     did not allow me to speak about the other crimes that were committed

19     before this decision was reached.

20        Q.   Understood.  Well, let's set aside for the moment the

21     contemporaneous explanation for the decision to move out the Muslims.  In

22     any event, General, many of the people who were moved out were rounded up

23     or captured before they expressed any desire to leave.  And specifically

24     at the moment, I'm referring to what you have previously said about the

25     portion of your order directed at the men fit for military service.

Page 34750

 1             MR. TIEGER:  So let's turn back to P466.

 2        Q.   As we see in item 6, it provides that men fit for military

 3     service are to be placed in camps for exchange.  And as you've explained

 4     in paragraph 5 of your statement, that portion of the order refers to

 5     "after they were captured, we first had to establish who among them had

 6     been active participants in armed conflict."

 7             So this -- the -- this portion of the order, referring to men fit

 8     for military service, refers to a body of people who were captured.

 9     That's correct, isn't it?

10        A.   What is written there is able-bodied military-aged men should be

11     separated.  They should be identified.  One should see who it was that

12     had taken part in the armed conflict -- armed conflicts.  Whether anyone

13     of them had committed any crimes against the civilian population or

14     whether they had assisted the armed forces of the enemy in some other

15     way.

16             All of that, because we, in the Tuzla canton - Zivinice, Kladanj,

17     Olovo - had a large number of POWs.  From my village, Jeginov Lug

18     specifically, all old men were taken to the public security station in

19     Tuzla, all of them over the age of 60.  So thanks to that and other

20     people that we had in the camps we exchanged these people.  So the aim

21     was not to have liquidations take place because in Zvornik we had many

22     paramilitary units, many paramilitary units.  After all, I think that we

23     are wasting time as far as this order is concerned.

24             On the 31st, I issued an order by way of a request, a plea to the

25     TO staff where I ask the commander of the TO Staff, since he had not

Page 34751

 1     organised units, that he send me an officer for further co-ordinated

 2     action.  So it is pointless to talk about all of this because my order

 3     was never accepted by the commander of the TO Staff.  So we're wasting

 4     time because this was never materialised.

 5        Q.   General, you have just stated, and you stated before, that

 6     between the time of your May 28th order to the Zvornik TO command and the

 7     time of the May 31st handwritten document to which you've just referred

 8     where you make a request rather than an order, you came to realise that

 9     your order of May 28th had not been obeyed because the Zvornik TO Staff

10     made decisions independently.  That's what you state in your statement;

11     correct?

12        A.   That's the way it was.

13        Q.   Well, let me call up first 65 ter 32496.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that.

15             Witness, could you please explain to me -- you said these people

16     even over 60, we had them there and they were exchanged.  That was good

17     for them, that's how I understood your testimony, because they would be

18     safe.  Is that well understood?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That pertained to Serb

20     civilians from the municipality of Kalesija, Jeginov Lug who had been

21     arrested and taken to prison in Tuzla.  They were over the age of 60,

22     most of them; elderly men, women, and children.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And you then said:

24             "So thanks to that and other people that we had in the camps we

25     exchanged these people.  So the aim was not to have liquidations take

Page 34752

 1     place because in Zvornik we had many paramilitary units ..."

 2             I understood that there was some fear that the paramilitary units

 3     in Zvornik might harm the people which you had then in the camps.  Is

 4     that well understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this includes non-military -- non-soldiers,

 7     even if they would have been at -- of military age.  Is that correctly

 8     understood?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It says there unambiguously,

10     military age, able-bodied men.  That's what it says in my statement and

11     in the explanation --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But still if you're able bodied and of

13     military age, that doesn't make you a soldier, does it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right.  But next

15     it says to carry out screening, triage.  So if somebody had not committed

16     a crime, had not taken part in armed conflicts, then these people would

17     be released, and they could go to Muslim territory if that is what they

18     wished to do.  Now those who expressed the wish to say, could stay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So they were not put there for exchange but --

20     I'm again -- but looking at the document, I don't think it says that they

21     were there to be investigated, whether they had committed crimes or not.

22     You added that.  But that's not found in the document, is it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this other document of the

24     30th, I order that the security organ interview people and supply all the

25     necessary information to the command.  So to check, to double-check who

Page 34753

 1     out of these people took part in war crimes or committed some other

 2     crime.  And then from these camps, Your Honour, those who had not done

 3     anything were released from these camps and went towards Kladanj.  I will

 4     give you many examples, many dates when we organised --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So they were not exchanged but you just released

 6     them to be free to do what they wanted to do.  Is that how I have to

 7     understand it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  Those who wished to

 9     remain in Republika Srpska could stay, and those who wished to leave

10     could go towards Kalesija, Zivinice, Tuzla, or Cerska.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you keep records of those who were not exchanged

12     but were offered freedom to go wherever they wanted to go?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you will see later that I as

14     brigade commander ordered the battalion commander in Vlasenica to work

15     out an entire paper about security, accommodation, everything that has to

16     do with POWs and everything the POWs are entitled to.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's prisoners of war.  But I'm talking about

18     that category of persons who were not soldiers, though perhaps of

19     military age and able-bodied, who were free to go.  That's not POWs.

20     That's a different category.  And I asked you, and have not answered that

21     question, whether you -- whether you kept a record of those who were free

22     to go, was -- did you keep such a --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have information now

24     about documentation of that kind.  This selection was made automatically.

25     They left.  I really cannot --

Page 34754

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, automatically.  They were put in those camps

 2     on your order.  Doesn't that bring a certain responsibility to verify

 3     whether what was not found in the order; but, as you explained it to us

 4     now, that they were sent there for triage and that everyone was

 5     automatically free to go, wouldn't it be your responsibility after you

 6     had ordered them to be detained also to look after, that they were not

 7     treated as prisoners of war but that they were treated as civilians free

 8     to go wherever they wanted to go?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I repeat, at brigade level,

10     every brigade has a location where POWs are assembled.  At such a

11     location, a triage takes place.  So prepare not taken to a camp, but it

12     on this location that the triage takes place.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, indeed, you are repeating your answer and

14     it's still not an answer to my question.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   General, what's on the screen now is an order dated the 30th of

18     May, 1992, by East Bosnia Corps Commander Dencic, providing that the

19     Zvornik municipal TO is to be transformed into the command of the Zvornik

20     infantry brigade of the East Bosnian Corps of the Army of the Serb

21     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22             General, what happened between May 28th, 1992, when you gave the

23     Zvornik TO an order to do what they hadn't done previously, and May 31st,

24     your handwritten note to them where you make a request for co-ordination,

25     is that you learned that the Zvornik TO was not independent but was

Page 34755

 1     simply going to become a sister brigade in the East Bosnia Corps.  That's

 2     the reality, isn't it?

 3        A.   If I understood your question, the document of the 31st of

 4     May itself shows that I am requesting, kindly asking the TO Staff to send

 5     an officer to me in order to organise co-ordinated action.  From that,

 6     one can see that I did not have any power over the TO Staff at all

 7     because basically they were not carrying out my order of the 28th May.

 8     They were not establishing units as I had said, and they were using them

 9     without my approval.  At will.  So I was not in command at a single point

10     in time.

11        Q.   General, my question was different.  You relied upon the May 31st

12     request to the Zvornik TO command in contrast to your May 28th order to

13     indicate to this Court that that demonstrated that the Zvornik TO was

14     independent.  The reality was that up to the 28th, you were aware of the

15     chain of command and knew that you had the power to order the Zvornik TO

16     to do things; but by the 31st you had learned that they were going to be

17     transformed into a sister brigade, not that you found out they were some

18     kind of independent group.  That's the reality.

19        A.   No, I did not know.

20        Q.   Let's turn then to 65 ter --

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             MR. TIEGER:  And if I could tender 32496 before we move onto

23     another document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7346.

Page 34756

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P7346 is admitted.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could turn to 65 ter 32499, English

 3     page 71, B/C/S page 39.

 4        Q.   This is your testimony before the Belgrade Court conducting the

 5     trial of Branko Grujic and Marko Pavlovic.  And there you state:

 6             As early as on the 31st I received information, since the

 7     municipality president had asked that the Zvornik Brigade be established,

 8     there was no longer any point for me to insist on the establishment

 9     because it was only a matter of three days.

10             And then as early on the 31st, was forced to propose that we

11     co-operate.

12             And similarly if we turn to page 64 in the English and page 35 in

13     the Serbian, you state in the course of --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have to wait for the B/C/S to appear.  Thank

15     you.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   You state in the course of discussing what happened in the three

18     days between the May 28th order and the 31st May request, that you:

19             "... received information that the Zvornik Brigade was being

20     established.  Then there was no point for two or three days to cause

21     problems regarding organisations and reorganisation."

22             So, General, contrary to what you just told the Court, that you

23     didn't know that the Zvornik TO was about to be transformed into a sister

24     brigade, that's precisely what you knew and precisely what you told the

25     Belgrade Court in 2007; correct?

Page 34757

 1        A.   I said that to the court and I'm not denying that.  However, it's

 2     politicians, local politicians that were planning that.  As for the chain

 3     of command, I did not receive any orders.  So for me, the superior

 4     command is the law.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I'll be tendering those excerpts, Mr. President, but

 6     I believe there may well be more so we may --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We could have a number reserved for it.

 8             Madam Registrar could you reserve a number for the excerpts of

 9     these court proceedings in Belgrade.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7347.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That number is reserved.

12             Mr. Tieger, if you have done with this page.

13             Witness, I read a little bit further down in that page:

14             "Because I know that Mr. Grujic kept insisting on the

15     establishment of the Zvornik Brigade, because they have their own

16     brigade, and I absolutely supported this and requested the superior

17     command to have the Zvornik Brigade established as soon as possible."

18             Now, that's not the TO acting independently but that is the

19     Zvornik TO becoming the Zvornik Brigade with a common superior command,

20     your brigade, and the Zvornik Brigade.  Therefore, I do not fully

21     understand what you mean if you say they acted independently.  Perhaps

22     independently from you, but they acted under the same superior command

23     which you addressed to encourage the quick establishment of the

24     Zvornik Brigade.  That's how I understand what you're saying here and

25     what I have difficulties in reconciling with the TO acting independently.

Page 34758

 1             Any comment on what I just said?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that you understood this

 3     well.  The TO acted independently in relation to the army because it was

 4     only on the 6th of June that an order was made for the units and the

 5     staffs of the TO to be renamed into commands of units of the Army of

 6     Republika Srpska.  That process in certain municipalities lasted up until

 7     the end of the year, even.  I can guarantee that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Witness, the fact is that the Zvornik Brigade, by way of example,

11     was established in actual fact on the 2nd of June and, indeed,

12     Colonel Blagojevic received the brigade on the 2nd of June; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now you refer to the 6th of June.  But as we discussed before,

15     that was the Ilic order, which this Court has received, that's P3739, of

16     the 6th of June, absorbing or incorporating all the current TO Staffs,

17     not just portions of their units, into the Army of Republika Srpska.

18     And, in fact, you implemented that order on the 8th of June; right?

19        A.   I'm telling you that is an order of the 8th of June.  In order to

20     rename all these staffs and units, that requires time.

21     Commander Blagojevic, the brigade commander, when he arrived, he

22     established the brigade.  And the TO Staff functioned along parallel

23     lines in terms of Colonel Blagojevic.  I've been trying to explain that

24     all the time, but it seems that I haven't succeeded.

25        Q.   Well, let's look at two things.

Page 34759

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Firstly quickly, 65 ter 32497.

 2        Q.   That is your order implementing the order of the

 3     East Bosnia Corps command on the 6th of June, to which we referred a

 4     moment ago, and which is also pursuant to Article 2 of the decision to

 5     establish the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH, which you referred to

 6     earlier on in your testimony, and it provides that those TO Staffs and

 7     units shall all be renamed commands and units of the Army of the Serbian

 8     Republic and that all of them, the units and the staffs, shall become

 9     part -- that is, all of them in the above-mentioned municipalities shall

10     become part of the Birac Brigade.

11             That's correct, isn't it?  That's your order making those

12     provisions and directing those actions to be taken?

13        A.   Yes.  This is my order, correct.  But I have already explained to

14     you the process of establishment and how TO Staffs and units grew into

15     units of the Army of Republika Srpska.  To understand what I've been

16     saying more easily, the Supreme Command, and everyone knows who the

17     Supreme Commander is, Mr. Karadzic, is responsible for establishing units

18     and organising them.  And it's only on the 21st of May that an

19     organisational order was issued, and general mobilisation was -- actually

20     in order to mobilise the army, the armed people, the military-aged

21     population, you need at least a month in order to carry out mobilisation.

22             So up until the end of the war, we had some of these staffs that

23     we could not -- could not fit into the units of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   General, the reality is that both before and after its

Page 34760

 1     incorporation or transformation into the Zvornik Brigade, that is, the

 2     transformation which took place on the 2nd of June, the Zvornik TO was

 3     implementing the moving out of the Muslims.

 4        A.   I cannot discuss that because I really wasn't involved in that.

 5     So you cannot really ask me about things that I'm not informed about.

 6        Q.   Well, General, I'm going to suggest that giving an order to the

 7     Zvornik TO on the 28th of May regarding the moving out of the Muslims and

 8     the placing of military-age men in camps for exchange does involve you.

 9     And in that respect, I want to take a look at some of the evidence of

10     what was happening in Zvornik at that time.

11             So, first -- well, given the time perhaps it's best to break and

12     pick it up when we resume.  If we have -- I don't know -- if we have two

13     minutes, I'm wrong.  Then if we have -- okay.  Then it's probably best to

14     break at this point.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll take a break.

16             Witness, would you please follow the usher.  We'll resume in 20

17     minutes.

18             MR. TIEGER:  And I failed to tender 32497, the 8 June 1992 order.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P7348.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.48 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

Page 34761

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Andric, Mr. Tieger will now continue his

 4     cross-examination.

 5             Is there a matter you would like to raise?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I

 7     wanted to suggest the following in order to use our time better, not to

 8     deal with Zvornik because I have no responsibilities or authority there.

 9     I think we have more burning problems and it seems to me that the time is

10     going very slowly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the parties decide on what matter they want

12     to examine you.  If you are concerned about not wasting time, I would

13     suggest that you carefully listen to the question and answer that

14     question alone.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   General, before we adjourned I indicated to you that I was going

18     to direct your attention to evidence of what happened in Zvornik between

19     the time of your May 28th order, including item 6 regarding the moving

20     out of the Muslims, and the time that the Zvornik TO became the

21     Zvornik Brigade on the 2nd of June.  And in that respect, I wanted to

22     direct your attention to P425, evidence in the Karadzic case.  That's at

23     e-court page 4.  As I advised my friends from the Defence, I would --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Tieger.

Page 34762

 1             Witness, there's no need to seek eye contact either with the

 2     Defence or the accused.  I noticed that when entering the courtroom your

 3     first concern was to greet Defence and accused before you -- with your

 4     eyes, with your gestures.  I invite you to refrain from doing that and

 5     rather focus on questions, answers, and the Court.

 6             Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   As I was about --

 9        A.   I apologise.  Don't I have the right to address the Defence?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You are instructed to refrain from seeking eye

11     contact even during examination by the Prosecution.  Rather, focus on

12     what Mr. Tieger asks you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

15        Q.   As I advised my friends during the break, I would be --

16        A.   Thank you.

17        Q.   -- summarising the testimony given, giving them an opportunity to

18     follow it.  But because it's in English, I didn't consider it necessary

19     to -- for the witness to have to track it word by word.

20             Witness -- General, this witness provided the following

21     information about what happened between the 28th of May and the 2nd of

22     June.  Testifying that on the 30th of May, 1992, Serbian Radio Zvornik

23     broadcast that all citizens from the Drinjaca-Kostijerovo area requested

24     to stay at home and not panic because the army will arrive.  About an

25     hour later, soldiers arrived.  About 150 men, women, and children -- and

Page 34763

 1     that's found at e-court pages 10 and 11.  About 150 men, women, and

 2     children rounded up, told to form a column, and taken to the Dom Kulture

 3     in Drinjaca, e-court pages 12 through 13.  It was jam packed with

 4     hundreds of Muslims, that's at 14.  And they were told by an officer, a

 5     uniformed officer that they were going to be transferred to some villages

 6     near Zenica and that Serbs would take their former homes.  Only women and

 7     children would leave, while men would remain to be interviewed, e-court

 8     page 15.  Approximately 90 men were murdered at the Dom Kulture, e-court

 9     pages 28 and 31.

10             And similarly another statement --

11             MR. TIEGER:  But for this one I think out of an abundance of

12     caution we should perhaps move into private session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 34764

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   So, General, to recap, I just provided you with the information

 9     that on June 1 another example of a village being surrounded, its

10     population rounded up, the men separated from the women and children,

11     taken to a facility wherein in that case many were murdered.

12             Now, as I indicated, these events occurred in Zvornik in late

13     May or the beginning of June 1992.  Do you confirm these events, dispute

14     these events, or say you simply don't know?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer.  The

17     interpreters could not catch it.  Perhaps you come a little bit closer to

18     the microphone.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   As a general matter, however, General, you would acknowledge that

22     forced displacement and killings took place in Zvornik subsequent to the

23     orders to move out the Muslims; correct?

24        A.   I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   What about the forced departure of the Muslim population from

Page 34765

 1     Kozluk.  You're aware of that, aren't you?

 2        A.   I am aware of it by reading about it in the papers, and I keep

 3     saying that but it seems that it's not doing any good.  The brigade

 4     general didn't -- commander didn't have any responsibilities regarding

 5     the Birac Brigade, so I don't know why you are putting things to me that

 6     have nothing do with me.

 7        Q.   You're the brigade commander of an important unit of the

 8     East Bosnia Corps, and in the adjacent municipality where a sister

 9     brigade is operating the Muslim population is being forcibly displaced

10     consistent with an order that you gave and an order given by the Birac

11     government, and you don't consider that in any way, shape, or form any

12     part of your responsibility or interest, General?

13        A.   Absolutely.  I don't have any responsibility in that regard, not

14     even a minimal degree of it.

15        Q.   You have already indicated to this Court you were aware of

16     liquidations of the Muslims in Zvornik; correct?  Because you claim that

17     was, in part, what prompted your order of the 31st of May.

18        A.   Evidently we're going back to the same thing, and I have to

19     repeat, Your Honours, other than what we stated before, a large number of

20     Serbs from Tuzla, Zvornik, and Zivinice came.  They were desperate.  They

21     were angry, and it was our problem how to protect those Muslims from

22     being exposed to revenge.

23        Q.   Sorry, General.  You are off --

24        A.   I don't know what you were asking of me.

25        Q.   You were aware in May and June of 1992 that Muslims who were

Page 34766

 1     rounded up, captured, placed in camps, were being liquidated in camps in

 2     Zvornik; right?

 3        A.   I had some pieces of -- individual pieces of information, but not

 4     official information.  I had individual bits of information, and that's

 5     why I did take some measures in my area of responsibility.

 6        Q.   And you blamed those liquidations on paramilitary groups;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   I cannot blame.  Again, you're putting me in the situation of

 9     asking me.  I'm not the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, so I have no

10     intention of answering questions like that.  Why I would answer when I

11     was not the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Because the question is put to you, and you should

13     answer any question to the best of your knowledge if it is put to you.

14     So therefore I now repeat the question:  Do you or do you not blame those

15     liquidations on paramilitary groups?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary formations bear

17     the bulk of responsibility generally in the entire Birac area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  For -- for everything?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So to quite some extent, you do blame the

21     paramilitaries for those liquidations?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say for the most part.  As

23     far as I know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 34767

 1        Q.   And specifically with regard to Zvornik, you're talking about

 2     such well-known paramilitary groups as the Yellow Wasps headed by

 3     Zuco Vuckovic; correct?

 4        A.   There were several of these paramilitary formations.  That one

 5     was one of them.  But I don't know specifically who committed these

 6     things.  I cannot really say with any degree of certainty.

 7        Q.   Well, General, I'm going to suggest to you that by pointing the

 8     finger at so-called paramilitary groups for these liquidations, you're

 9     doing something similar to what you were doing in calling the Zvornik TO

10     independent.  That is, you're ignoring their actual subordination.  And

11     the fact is that you were aware of the fact, for example, that these

12     paramilitaries were supposed to be subordinated to the Zvornik TO and

13     later the Zvornik Brigade; correct?

14        A.   Yes.  But I would like to remind you that these paramilitary

15     formations in Zvornik did whatever they wanted.  They even captured the

16     president of the municipality, Mr. Grujic.  So that was the ratio of

17     strength in Zvornik.

18        Q.   General, the fact is that these particular groups - specifically

19     Zuco's group - was being paid by the Zvornik TO and later by the

20     Zvornik Brigade, and they were subordinated.  That's the truth; right?

21        A.   I don't know that.  That is something that you have to ask those

22     who were authorised to pay them.

23        Q.   Well, let me turn quickly to a couple of items then.

24             MR. TIEGER:  First, 65 ter 32502.  And if we could go to the last

25     page of that document.

Page 34768

 1        Q.   This is a TO payroll list signed by Marko Pavlovic, indicating

 2     payment to Zuca Vuckovic as a TO member for military activity between the

 3     1st and 17th of May, 1992.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm going to turn to another document quickly

 5     because we'll see quite a number of the same names in this document.

 6     That's 65 ter 32276.

 7        Q.   This is a document, as you'll see in a moment, headed the 1st

 8     Infantry Battalion.  And we'll see on page 4 of this document, in both

 9     English and Serbian, payment for salaries or of salaries for June 1992.

10     We see the stamp of the Zvornik municipality on the top of the Serbian

11     version.

12             And on page 32 of the English -- 7 of the English and 32 of the

13     Serbian -- no, excuse me, that's the wrong cite.  77 through 79 in the

14     Serbian.  We can see the references to the 1st Infantry Battalion and

15     Zuca's group within that, including Vojin Vuckovic and his brother

16     Dusan Vuckovic.

17             MR. TIEGER:  English page 32, if I didn't make that clear.

18        Q.   And a comparison of those payment lists will also indicate, as I

19     mentioned a moment ago --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are not the corresponding pages.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  It should be 32 of the English and 77

22     through 79 of the Serbian.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you say 77 through 79, you should indicate

24     which one you want to have on the screen.

25             MR. TIEGER:  We'll start with 77 then.  It is a confusing

Page 34769

 1     direction to the Registrar.

 2        Q.   And there we can see Vojin Vuckovic and Dusko Vuckovic and so on,

 3     scrolling down.

 4             And finally, if we could turn to 65 ter 18491, English page 7 and

 5     B/C/S page 32.  This is the Zvornik Brigade duty book.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And should be English page 7, Serbian page 32.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And as we see, we see the entry at 0530, Zuco's courier

 8     came, gave us the message that Zuco wants to know what to do next and

 9     whether he should come to the command.

10             General, these documents, you'll agree, indicate that not only

11     was Zuco's group supposed to be subordinated for the Zvornik TO and

12     subsequently the Zvornik Brigade, but in fact they were; correct?

13        A.   I don't know any of these documents so that I'm not -- I don't

14     have an answer.

15        Q.   Well, I'll turn to some of the information you did have.

16             MR. TIEGER:  But I'd tender those three documents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 32502 receives number

19     P7349.

20             Document 32276 receives number P7350.

21             And document 18491 receives number P7351.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7349 through P7351 are admitted into evidence.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   Well, in fact, General, contemporaneously, you were well aware of

25     Zuco and the Yellow Wasps and in fact met them when they came to Kalesija

Page 34770

 1     in late May to participate in combat operations; right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   And at that time they were resubordinated to the Kalesija TO

 4     staff in order to engage in those combat operations in Kalesija; correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Now, General, perhaps we can look at some of what was happening

 7     in other parts of the region beyond Zvornik.  So let me look, in

 8     particular, at evidence this Court has received about what happened in

 9     Seher near Osmace on the 27th of May, 1992.

10             MR. TIEGER:  And I'll be referring to P2528, which is under seal

11     in this case, Mr. President, but I'll do so in a manner that doesn't

12     implicate the reasons for the confidentiality.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But at least not to be shown --

14             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Or still to be shown but --

16             MR. TIEGER:  No, I think my friends can follow and therefore we

17     don't risk comprising the confidentiality in any way.  Yeah.  Okay.

18        Q.   Now, as I indicated, this concerns what happened in Seher which

19     is near Osmace in what was part of the Kalesija municipality before the

20     conflict.  Can we --

21             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  This is not broadcast, correct?  Right.

22     And -- I don't think this -- this shouldn't be on the -- there is no need

23     to put this on the screen.  Let's just move this off screen, please.

24        Q.   That evidence, as the Court has received, is that on the 27th of

25     May, 1992, Serbs in military uniform and some in civilian clothing

Page 34771

 1     collected the Muslims of Seher together, separated the men from the women

 2     and children, and transported them to Osmace town.  And from there, the

 3     men were transported to Paprace school gym, from there to the Vlasenica

 4     secondary school, and there from Susica, and ultimately onward to

 5     Batkovic in the case of this particular person.

 6             So once again as we saw in the case of Zvornik, the rounding up

 7     of the people from the village and separation of the men from the women

 8     and children and their placement in detention facilities.

 9             General, the collection of Muslims of Seher on the 27th May,

10     1992, the separation of the men from the women and children, the

11     placement of those men in camps and detention facilities, that was the

12     implementation of your order to move out the Muslims, separating the men

13     from the women and children and putting the men in camps for exchange,

14     wasn't it?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   You issued an order --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We didn't receive the full interpretation of the

18     answer.

19             Witness, could you repeat your last answer, please, and move a

20     little bit further to the microphone.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said no and I can also provide an

22     explanation if necessary.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 34772

 1        Q.   General, the military forces operating in that area received an

 2     order from you the day before to do precisely that, didn't they?

 3        A.   The order was received, and if you allow me to do so, I shall

 4     explain.

 5             First of all --

 6        Q.   General, before you explain let's have the Court take a look at

 7     that order.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I call up P7086.

 9        Q.   That's an order dated 26th of May 1992 to the commander of the

10     Light Infantry Battalion Osmace.  That's your order, General, isn't it,

11     and it's signed by you?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot understand or

13     hear the speaker.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, perhaps the usher would assist in

15     adjusting the microphone, if you are leaning towards... yes.  Perhaps it

16     should be moved slightly -- a little bit further.  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the top it's not the brigade.

18     It's the infantry battalion.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   I'm not sure what your point is there, General.  I think that's

21     exactly what I said.  It's an order from you to the commander of the

22     infantry battalion, Osmace, and it's your order and it's signed by you;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And it provided, among other things, in item -- now here looking

Page 34773

 1     at item 6:

 2             "Move women and children out of the Muslim villages to Kalesija

 3     and Gracanica whereas the men are to be taken away to collection

 4     centres."

 5             Now that meant move the women and children from the villages they

 6     inhabited to Muslim-held parts of the municipality of Kalesija and to

 7     Gracanica in the Zivinice municipality; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  But allow me to explain.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now you can explain.

10        A.   This order pertained to all, not only Muslims.  Serbs were also

11     moving out because this was a combat area.  So at the same time Serbs

12     left, went to Zvornik and Srbinje.  In order to protect the people there,

13     I ordered that women and children be allowed to go to Kalesija and

14     Gracanica because of combat operations.  Then also because of revenge.

15             People, refugees were coming in from Gracanica, Kalesija, Tuzla,

16     and we had to prevent any kind of revenge that could be taken by them,

17     and that is why I have to say that it is precisely this order of mine

18     that saved thousands of people.  Had we left these people in the combat

19     area, I believe that many would not be alive today.  So it is precisely

20     this order that contributed.

21             And later on, we will see that the same persons were exchanged

22     and that to this day they live together with their families.

23        Q.   Okay.  So --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly.

Page 34774

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, can you give us an order that was made

 2     similar to this one with respect to the Serbs?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the order specifically in

 4     Vlasenica, for instance.  The Crisis Staff of Vlasenica.  The very moment

 5     when --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just listen to my question.  Are you able to

 7     provide a written order similar to this one with respect to Serbs?  Not

 8     asking you where it was.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I cannot do that in

10     writing because I have no ability to do so right now.  But there were

11     such orders precisely because of the combat operations taking place.

12     Because that was a combat area.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you a -- also a question in relation to

15     this.

16             Could you tell us how many Serb women and children were

17     removed -- were moved out through this order from Muslim villages to

18     Kalesija and Gracanica.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Muslim villages?  As for the

20     municipality of Kalesija, practically the entire Serb population, women

21     and children, they went to Zvornik and to Serbia.  The only ones that

22     stayed were --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm asking you how many Serbs, women and

24     children, were moved out of Muslim villages and then taken to Kalesija

25     and Gracanica?  I'm not talking about any other villages.  I'm talking

Page 34775

 1     about Muslim villages, how many Serbs were moved out from there?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Serbs were not being moved

 3     out.  That was territory that was controlled by Muslim, so we cannot move

 4     Serbs out, can we?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But you earlier said it would apply equally to

 6     Muslims and Serbs.  But if only Muslims are living there, the effect is

 7     that it's only Muslims that will be moved out, isn't it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether -- well, from

 9     the combat zone, both Muslims and Serbs were moved out because that was

10     basically a front line.  We did not have any depth in our front,

11     Mr. President.  We did not have a -- a depth of the front.  We just had

12     the front line.  So how could you control what was happening in depth?

13     Just one example:  A brigade defends 10 to 15 kilometres principle,

14     whereas the zone of my brigade is 150 kilometres.  150 kilometres.  Along

15     one line, you have 100 kilometres in depth.  You cannot prevent revenge.

16     You cannot --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's not what I asked.  So this order

18     specifically focused at moving out women and children from Muslim

19     villages.  That is to say, Muslim women and children.  Is that well

20     understood?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   General, you told this Court just a moment ago that "practically

Page 34776

 1     the entire population" of the municipality of Kalesija was Serb.  In that

 2     regard, let's take a look at 65 ter 025591.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me -- thank you.  Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

 4     65 ter 02559L.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that that is not what

 8     the witness said.  It would be a good thing before showing this document

 9     to check whether the witness uttered those words; namely, that almost the

10     entire population of Kalesija was Serb.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Well --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll first read what is in the transcript.  Perhaps

13     you do that literally, and then if the first question to the witness is

14     whether the -- whether there's any dispute about the way in which his

15     words were reflected.  And if the witness disputes it, then we'll be able

16     to verify it on the basis of the audio.

17             Mr. Tieger, I leave it in your hands.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm referring to page 60,

19     beginning at line --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  6.

21             MR. TIEGER:  "As for the municipality of Kalesija practically the

22     entire population was Serb."

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you go on further:  "Women and children, they

24     went to Serbia."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, the first question is is that what

Page 34777

 1     you said.  If there's any dispute about it, we'll listen to the audio

 2     and then we'll find out what you exactly said and have it all

 3     verified.

 4             Did you say --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not say that.  Since in

 6     Kalesija the majority population is Muslim, whereas this pertained to the

 7     Serb municipality of Osmace or rather the Serb municipality of Kalesija,

 8     and specifically the place that the gentleman, the Prosecutor, was asking

 9     about.  That's Osmace, Seher, what you said.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the last

11     sentence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your last sentence.

13             Witness, could you repeat the last sentence which was not caught

14     by the interpreters.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the Prosecutor has been asking

16     about, that is the Serb municipality of Kalesija; specifically Osmace, a

17     location called Seher, with a minority Muslim population.  And Kalesija

18     is a majority --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Again, we didn't hear the

20     end.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what the witness explained to us that he

22     limited the Serb majority to a certain area of the municipality, but this

23     is to be verified if that is not what the witness may have said.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, and that should be checked.

25        Q.   In any event, Witness, let's look at how that part of Kalesija

Page 34778

 1     became almost entirely Muslim-free, as you indicated.  So first we're

 2     looking at 65 ter 02559L.  If we can blow it up slightly so that we can

 3     see the names, focusing on the municipality in the middle.

 4             Okay.  There we see Seher and other indicated in green as a

 5     Muslim village.  And we also see, for example, above it, Memici, correct?

 6     So we see Osmace in blue, indicating it's Serb.  Then we see Mahala and

 7     we see Memici above that, right?  The latter two indicated as Muslim

 8     municipalities.

 9             Now, those municipalities were "liberated"; right?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you referring to municipalities or --

11             MR. TIEGER:  Those villages were, in that part of the Kalesija

12     municipality, were quote/unquote, liberated.

13        Q.   Correct?

14        A.   I don't know which specific villages you mean.

15        Q.   Well, let's turn to 65 ter 32498.  We'll return to the map in a

16     moment.  General, I presume you'll recognise this as a report on the

17     occasion of marking the day of the establishment of the Drina Corps

18     prepared by you --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- on the 30th of October, 1993?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if we could turn to page 3 of the English, and I believe

23     page 3 of the Serbian as well.  There is emphasis placed on the

24     liberation of Kalesija.  Indeed, the need to mention the liberation of

25     Kalesija.  And as we read further, we see a specific mention of the

Page 34779

 1     liberation of the village of Memici and the placing of the said village

 2     under our control.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us an indication?  I have not found

 4     it yet.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  It's -- if you see the middle -- yeah.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I see it.  I see it.  That's approximately in the

 7     middle of the page immediately after the Italics.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 9        Q.   So, the reason that the Muslim village of Seher ended up in the

10     Serbian municipality of Osmace, that is, the newly formed municipality of

11     Osmace, is because it was liberated in the manner we heard described

12     earlier, and the same fate befell Memici which was praised as liberation

13     in your retrospective; correct?

14        A.   Mr. President, in order to respond to this question, I would have

15     to make an introduction.  Otherwise, it is pointless to go on.  This

16     happened at the time when the army, in fact, did not even exist.

17             Secondly, for your information, the TO, the Patriotic League of

18     the municipality of Kalesija was established before anything was done in

19     terms of organising the Army of Republika Srpska.  The TO, the

20     Patriotic League first attacked the Serb villages in the depth of the

21     municipality Jeginov Lug -- please, Jeginov Lug, Sarska Basta [phoen],

22     military columns --

23        Q.   General, let's -- I gave you an opportunity to provide what you

24     called an explanation about something else.  But let's establish the

25     facts first.

Page 34780

 1             First, on the 26th of May you gave an order to move out the

 2     Muslim -- the people from the Muslim village of -- from those Muslim

 3     villages, give the order to the Osmace forces, and that resulted in the

 4     rounding up of the villagers of Seher on the 27th of May; correct?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 6     witness.

 7             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, actually, I think the -- excuse me, General, I

 9     apologise, but the interpreters couldn't hear you.  I heard you say --

10     answer in the affirmative, but if you could just repeat it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps be the microphone adjusted again.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness's microphone

13     is off and other microphones are on.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Again, General, if you could repeat your affirmative answer.  You

16     said the answer is yes?

17        A.   My answer was yes.  But you didn't allow me to explain.

18        Q.   And I said I would as soon as I was permitted to establish the

19     facts.

20             Memici was also a Muslim village in that part of the Kalesija

21     municipality; correct?

22        A.   No.  Half of the village was Serb and the other half was Muslim.

23        Q.   The village of Memici --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Let's go back to 65 ter 02559L.  We see visual representations of

Page 34781

 1     the demographics of those particular villages, green for municipalities

 2     which were exclusively or predominantly Muslim; blue for -- villages,

 3     rather, which are exclusively or predominantly Muslim.  Blue, the

 4     corresponding colour for villages that are exclusively or predominantly

 5     Serb.  Memici, as we see --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, we don't see anything.  It's not on the

 7     screen yet.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apparently there are some computer problems

10     which slow down what appears on our screens.  There are two ways to

11     resolve it.  Either we ask the Prosecution to produce it another way on

12     the screen, or the second is to take the break a bit earlier and try to

13     fix it over the next 20 minutes.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm just checking quickly to see if

16     we have a hard copy in colour that we can put on the ELMO.  If not, we

17     probably will have to take the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I'm told the alternative is for Ms. Stewart to put

20     it up in Sanction.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That was what I had on my mind, as a matter of fact,

22     Mr. Tieger.  Not your hard copy on the ELMO.  But let's see whether we

23     can have it on the ELMO -- whether we can have it on our screens through

24     Sanction.  There we are.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

Page 34782

 1        Q.   Again, we see Seher in green consistent with the evidence that I

 2     read out to you before.  Osmace in blue, Mahala in green, and Memici in

 3     green.  So according to the census of 1991, Memici was a predominantly

 4     Muslim village; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, the logic to some extent escapes me.  I

 7     mean, the witness was telling us about half-half.  Now, I only see

 8     predominantly one ethnicity or predominantly another, and the half

 9     halves, I don't whether you consider a 51 per cent majority predominantly

10     or not, but otherwise there's no room for villages which are half-half or

11     52-48.  So therefore could it be checked, perhaps.  And parties, I take

12     it, could agree on these villages, what percentage is given in the

13     census.  Because to further explore with the witness whether he is right

14     or wrong on the half-half depends on what we find in the census.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Of course, Mr. President, we can do that.  And I

16     agree that, first of all, "predominantly" in the sense I was using it

17     meant on either side of 50-50.  I agree with you there was no room for a

18     50-50 in -- in the context of the bright line green-blue, but my point

19     was basically what happened to that village in the context of the orders

20     given.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I let you continue there.  But "predominantly"

22     for me is something heavier than by majority.  That's -- but that's

23     perhaps my understanding of English language, right or wrong, but let's

24     move on.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 34783

 1        Q.   Next fact, Witness.  You said that in that portion of the

 2     Kalesija municipality that is clarifying or attempting to clarify your

 3     early remark, that part was essentially all Serb, and I'm suggesting to

 4     you that that part of the Kalesija municipality became predominantly all

 5     Serb after the military operations resulting from the orders given, for

 6     example, on the 26th of May, 1992; correct?  That's what happened to

 7     those villages we see here.

 8        A.   Well, if you say that it's that way, then I assume that you think

 9     that it is that way.  However, do go back to the period from the 8th,

10     7th of May, when there were combat operations, when Kalesija, I mean, was

11     placed under the control of the Territorial Defence, the Serb Territorial

12     Defence, and then the 23rd, the Muslims put it under their control.

13             So this village, Memici, that you are mentioning on the basis of

14     my order, in fact, there were no inhabitants there.  This was a combat

15     position.  So in that period of time, that is to say, we are fighting --

16     we are, in fact, fighting the enemy.  So there were no inhabitants there

17     at all.

18             As for Seher, Seher is Serb and Muslim.  So these are villages.

19     Seher.  Half Serb, half Muslim.  People lived together.  However, the

20     very moment there was danger, that somebody would commit a crime, we

21     decided on this.  And I have to tell you that I'm proud of what I did.

22        Q.   So that's your answer, General.  You gave an order to move out

23     Muslims who weren't there in order to protect them from revenge even

24     though they weren't there.  That's the answer?

25        A.   We're not understanding each other at all.

Page 34784

 1        Q.   You said you gave --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What Mr. Tieger puts to you is the following.  If

 3     you say there was no one living there at the time because it was a combat

 4     zone, why give an order that women and children should be moved out if

 5     they were not there.  That's the question Mr. Tieger puts to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke specifically about the

 7     village of Memici because what was pointed out was the village of Memici

 8     and there was nothing.  I mean, as for Seher, where it is mentioned that

 9     people moved out.  Yes, the population was half Serb, half Muslim, and

10     that was the objective, that these people be allowed to go to Muslim

11     territory in order to save them because there was combat going on.  And

12     the Serb population from these villages had also left.  They went to

13     Serbia.  I mean, I really don't know.  Are we understanding each other?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll find out.  We'll take a break anyhow.  So that

15     gives us 20 minutes to further prepare for a full understanding.

16             We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back at 1.30.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn until then.

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness, Mr. Tieger, had

22     you any chance to look at Memici and percentages?

23             MR. TIEGER:  I'll be addressing that first thing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             MR. TIEGER:  And by way and as long as we're waiting, could I

Page 34785

 1     take the opportunity to tender 65 ter 32498.  That was the retrospective

 2     of October 1993 that the witness indicated was his.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7352.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And also if I may, the Kalesija map which is

 7     65 ter 02559L.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the map receives number P7353.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  And then can we call up 65 ter 2559M,

12     like master.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   General, a few minutes ago you indicated at page 66, line 12,

16     that Memici was half and half; that is, half Muslim half Serb.  And at

17     page 69, line 4, that Seher was half Muslim-half Serb, or half Serb-half

18     Muslim.  And in that connection, I wanted to look at the 1991 census.  If

19     we look at this first page of 65 ter 2559M, we see Kalesija.  And turning

20     to the third page, we see a list of villages in Kalesija.  And we see

21     Memici listed --

22             MR. TIEGER:  Third page, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Next page in English.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Did that page not upload?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  There is only two pages in e-court for the

Page 34786

 1     document.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go back to the previous page.  Is there

 4     anything ...

 5             MR. TIEGER:  The Sanction option, I think, will ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we enlarge on the bottom of that page?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  None of the villages are mentioned here yet and we

 9     expect them on the next page, which is the -- it's not the next page but

10     two pages forward.

11             MR. TIEGER:  There with see Memici listed at line 16, and I'm

12     pointing that out because we'll need that line reference to find Memici

13     in the 1991 census, and we see Seher listed at line 28.  And if we turn

14     to the next page in that case, then we see the continuation of the data

15     for those villages now for the 1991 census, and we see at line 16 the

16     demographics of Memici:  1.318 Muslim, 167 Serb.  And at line 28 the

17     demographics for Seher: 915 Muslim, 267 Serb.

18        Q.   General, your information to this Court, your testimony to this

19     Court, that those villages were demographically half and half

20     Muslim/Serb, was simply wrong; correct?

21        A.   Yes, I accept that.  Perhaps I misspoke.  I did say the places

22     were mixed.  That's what I meant.  Therefore, there were both Muslim and

23     Serb inhabitants.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 65 ter 2559M.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that the extract which doesn't contain the

Page 34787

 1     page we need?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  And I guess we -- well,

 3     we will make sure that the two critical pages are added to that 65 ter

 4     number.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Excerpt of the 1991 census including Memici and

 6     Seher, still to be uploaded, would receive what number, Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P7354, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And there are no objections, so once uploaded

 9     they will be admitted.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   And as long as we're on this topic, because you've mentioned both

13     the Serb municipality of Kalesija and the Serb municipality of Osmace,

14     let me clarify for the Court what that means.

15             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up 65 ter 32513.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But before we do that.

17             Witness, could I take you back to one of your previous answers.

18     I asked you whether any Serb, Muslim or women were -- children or women

19     were moved out, and you said in those Muslim villages there were no Serbs

20     living there.  Now although it was not half-half, here apparently there

21     was a considerable number of Serb families living in those villages.

22     Could you tell us whether they were moved out as well?  Or don't you

23     know?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that.  Perhaps you didn't

25     understand that.  The entire population was moved out, both Serbs and

Page 34788

 1     Muslims, because it was an area where combat was under way.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a combat zone.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And then I asked you how many Serbs were moved out,

 5     and you said there were no Serbs living there in those villages because

 6     they were Muslim villages.

 7             Now, again, my question now is, first of all, were, to your

 8     knowledge and do you have any details about the number of Serb women and

 9     children that were moved out?  That's my first question.  Do you have any

10     information about that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have anything specific

12     about these two villages, but the information --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  I was talking about these

14     villages.

15             Could you tell us how many Serb men were put in camps that were

16     taken from those villages, because apparently there were Serbs living

17     there as well.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs were not taken to camps.

19     They were taken by the Muslim [as interpreted] side to Tuzla.  They were

20     not taken to camps here but they moved to Zvornik and to Serbia.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said they were taken by the Muslims?  Let me

22     just check.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So they were allowed to move on their own; whereas,

25     the Muslim men were put into camps.

Page 34789

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And because they possibly were soldiers of the other

 3     armed forces, is that your explanation?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But a number of the men who

 5     were not able-bodied were released together with the women and children

 6     to go to Gracanica and Kalesija.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were they exchanged or were they ... because

 8     earlier you told us that you'd now say they were released together with

 9     the women and children to go to Gracanica and Kalesija.  But earlier you

10     said that these men were free to go, so -- wherever they wanted to go.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that group of women,

12     children, and those who were unfit for service were allowed to go freely.

13     Whereas, the able-bodied men were placed in camps, and then later they

14     crossed to Muslim territory through exchanges.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Even if there were no prisoners of war.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, practically they were not

17     prisoners of war.  They were temporarily placed there.  In the beginning,

18     it was a collection centre, a place to accommodate all of those people

19     who were there.  And then later, practically they were all released.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But there's no records of that, if I

21     understood you well.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are records.  Later, we will

23     speak about that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if the Defence would be able to give us the

25     relevant records of that, of course it would certainly assist in the

Page 34790

 1     evaluation of the totality of the evidence.

 2             Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we have a report.  We have a

 4     report.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I invited the Defence to do whatever they

 6     think would assist us.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Yeah, I had indicate just a moment ago that we would look at your

10     comments about the Serb municipality of Kalesija and the municipality of

11     Osmace.

12             MR. TIEGER:  In context, if we could turn to 65 ter 32513 and

13     turn -- okay.

14        Q.   First of all, there we see it and we see Kalesija and Osmace

15     bolded.  Let's turn to the second page, please.

16             The top portion of that map we see Kalesija, the municipality of

17     Kalesija, as it existed before the war in its configuration.  And beneath

18     it, we see Kalesija after the war.  And what we can see from that map is

19     that a portion of Kalesija, the portion that, as it happened, included

20     Seher, which was the subject of your May 26th order, as it was

21     implemented on the 27th of May, and as we can see from the configuration

22     Memici now in the Serbian municipality of Osmace.

23             So, General, when you referred to Osmace before -- well, first of

24     all, when you refer to the Serbian municipality of Kalesija, you meant

25     that portion of the Kalesija municipality that pre-existed the war that

Page 34791

 1     had been designated for Serbian control by the Serbian authorities, and

 2     when you refer to Osmace, you mean that portion of the former Kalesija

 3     municipality that had been taken under control by the Serbian forces and

 4     that eventually became part of Republika Srpska; correct?

 5        A.   Well, please, believe me, it's very difficult for me to answer

 6     today because you're not allowing me to explain anything.  So I can see

 7     that you're the one who is speaking more here.  Kalesija had 30- or

 8     40.000 inhabitants.  Out of that, only 7.500 were Serbs.  In the depth of

 9     Kalesija, there are a number of Serbian villages --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch all the village

11     names.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, the blockade of those

13     villages, specifically Jegino [phoen] Brdo --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm stopping you again.  If we need further

15     explanations, whether it was logical to do what was done or not, that's

16     not the question.  The question is whether you referred in your testimony

17     to certain parts of that municipality.

18             Now again, if the parties would like to know whether there was

19     any logic behind it, they will ask you.  If they don't ask you,

20     apparently it's not that relevant for the case which is before us.

21             So please leave it to the parties what they'd like to know from

22     you, and could you please now answer the question that was put to you by

23     Mr. Tieger.  If need be, Mr. Tieger will repeat it.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   General, you see the graphic representation in front of you.

Page 34792

 1     That is what happened as a result of the operations that we've been

 2     looking at; correct?

 3        A.   I see Kalesija on the map from 1991.  And I see Kalesija after

 4     the combat actions in 1992.  So I don't know what you're asking me about.

 5     If that's it, then that's it.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 65 ter 32513.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7355.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Now, General, you became aware at the time --

12        A.   Excuse me, Mr. President, I apologise.  I hope that the -- this

13     map is not in the context of my order.  This map is from the 8th of May,

14     1992.  The 8th, 9th, and 10th is what the map looked like.  It looked

15     like this on those dates.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether there's any relationship between these maps

17     and your orders will be considered in the evaluation of the totality of

18     the evidence before us.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I apologise.  The Prosecutor

21     cannot --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  In re-examination, the Defence can ask you any

23     additional questions which sheds a better light on your evidence.  Don't

24     worry about how we are dealing with all that.  Just focus on answering

25     the questions.

Page 34793

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   General, you became aware at the time that as a result of the

 4     capture of many Muslims, facilities in which those people were being held

 5     were filling up; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And indeed you visited the Vlasenica secondary school where the

 8     witness whose testimony I referred you to earlier, the witness from

 9     Seher, was taken, and he stated that -- he described what it was like

10     there in the secondary school at -- in P2528; fearful that anybody could

11     be taken at any time from the gym and anything could happen, describing

12     that most of the people had been beaten and were covered in blood and

13     were unwashed, that people were weak from hunger, that they were

14     exhausted and afraid, and he testified that you inspected the gym while

15     he was there.

16             And that's the truth, right, you did visit the gym while Muslims

17     were retained there in late May 1992; right?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Did you ever visit the gym while Muslims were retained there,

20     sir?

21        A.   Not while the Muslims were there, but I was there when the Serbs

22     from Tuzla were exchanged to go to Brcko and it took place in that gym.

23        Q.   Well, let's turn to 65 ter 325 --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just an explanation.

25             What -- against who were the Serbs being exchanged on that day

Page 34794

 1     when you were there?  Who were they exchanged with?  Because the Muslims

 2     were not there anymore, according to what you tell us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th of June, the Serbs from

 4     the Serb villages of Kalesija municipality, Jeginov Lug, Dumica, and

 5     Zolje Jajici were arrested, they were taken to the central prison in

 6     Tuzla.  Then --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I stop you, please.  You said when you visited

 8     the school, the Muslims were not there.  You went there when the Serbs

 9     were being exchanged.  I'm asking you on that day who were they being

10     exchanged with, because the memories were not there.

11             Just answer my question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the Muslims from Seher and

13     Osmace.  They were being exchanged for those Muslims.  I personally was

14     present when the Serbs came from those areas, and I saw that gym for the

15     first time.  The school gym.  That was the first time that I saw it.  I

16     saw arriving mostly elderly men, and we gave Muslims in exchange for

17     these elderly men who had come.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But at that point in time, where were the Muslims?

19     Were they still in the gym to be exchanged for the Serbs coming in?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Where were they then?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They were in Susica.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the very last

24     couple of words.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you please repeat the last couple of

Page 34795

 1     words.  You said they were in Susica.  And what did you then say?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Susica.  It was a collection

 3     centre, reception centre at the time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you never visited the gym or the school

 5     before that day.  And on that day, there were no Muslims in that gym

 6     anymore.  Is that ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say this.  When I came,

 8     there were no more Muslims at the school.  So that was my first and last

 9     visit there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  65 ter 32505, please; e-court page 46.

13        Q.   Now, General Andric, this is in the context of questioning about

14     the statement of another witness in the Karadzic case, that questioning

15     was done in private session, who also spoke about your visit to the high

16     school gym.  And at e-court page 46, that is transcript 41687 of the

17     Karadzic case, we see the following exchange:

18             "Q. You visited the Vlasenica secondary school gym, the high

19     school gym, yes, when it was holding Muslims?

20             "A. Yes."

21             That was the testimony you gave under oath in the Karadzic case;

22     correct, General?

23        A.   Yes, I went there only when Serbs were there.  I don't recall

24     ever being there when the Muslims were there.  I did meet that group of

25     Muslims at the school in Paprace together with Pahomije and the president

Page 34796

 1     of the municipality where I asked the bishop to make sure that the people

 2     are taken to their destination safely.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Let's go into private session for a moment, if we

 4     may.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 34797











11  Pages 34797-34799 redacted.  Private session.















Page 34800

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   General, as a result of your awareness that the detention of

 8     Muslims was straining available facilities, you ordered that a camp in

 9     Vlasenica be set up and that camp was the Susica camp; correct?

10        A.   That's not correct.

11        Q.   Did you order the establishment of the Susica camp?

12        A.   Please, could I be shown that order so then I can explain.

13             MR. TIEGER:  P190, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you first answer the question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to explain to

16     you that the order for organisation and the order on the establishment of

17     a camp, that's not one and the same thing.  When you say that you're

18     organising something, then you're organising something that had already

19     been established.  And the Prosecutor should read the heading.  What does

20     it say?  It says organisation only later.  The heading says --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear what it

22     says.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Even this Chamber usually does not say what the

24     Prosecutor should say, and we also do not dictate what the Defence should

25     ask.  So refrain from telling the Prosecutor what to do.  Did you order

Page 34801

 1     the establishment of Susica camp, yes or no?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   First of all, paragraph 7 of your statement, General, states the

 6     following in its first sentence --

 7        A.   May I get that?  May I take a look myself.  There's nothing --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, what Mr. Tieger is now doing, he's

 9     quoting from your own statement which you've given to the Karadzic

10     Defence and which you said you had reviewed recently.  He is quoting from

11     that.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

13             And would you refrain from again and again interfering in -- when

14     questions are put to you.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  It states that document there listed as P3240,

17     that's the Karadzic number, of 31 May 1992 is my -- excuse me, that is --

18     is my order by which I ordered that a camp be established in Vlasenica,

19     stressing that international rules must be applied and forbidding any

20     ill-treatment or liquidation of the prisoners.  I just quoted from that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, I think, meanwhile admitted into evidence.

22     It was 65 ter P190, and it now has become ...

23             MR. TIEGER:  Previously admitted as P190 in this case.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's --

25             MR. TIEGER:  And referred to by its Karadzic P number in the

Page 34802

 1     statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  It's an exhibit number.  Yes.  That's, of

 3     course, not 65 ter but exhibit.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   So that's the first thing, General.  And you state that in the

 6     statement which you recently reviewed and attested to in Court this

 7     morning.

 8             And if we turn to P190, that's your order of the 31st of May,

 9     1992, providing in item 1 -- well, in -- it is:

10             Pursuant to the decision of the Birac Serb Autonomous Region

11     government which regulates the moving out of the Muslim population from

12     the territory of the Birac SAR.  I hereby order, one, set up a camp in

13     Vlasenica and secure it in compliance with international regulations.

14             So my question to you earlier, General, about whether or not as a

15     result of your awareness of the fact that detention facilities were being

16     strained with increasing numbers of captured Muslims resulted in your

17     setting up or establishment of the Susica camp was based on, in part,

18     what you said in your statement, and what you said in your

19     31st May order, 1992.

20             Do you now disavow having set up the Susica camp by virtue of

21     your order of the 31st of May, 1992?

22        A.   I do not deny that I organised the camp, but I deny that I

23     established the camp.  Establishing the camp is one thing and organising

24     the camp is another matter.  So these are two different notions.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But, Witness, Mr. Tieger is asking you about

Page 34803

 1     the establishment.  You are putting in the word "organisation."  He says

 2     you ordered the establishment.  According to this order here, you're

 3     saying:  Set up a camp in Vlasenica and secure it in compliance with

 4     international regulations.  And he's saying you ordered this

 5     establishment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't give answers for the witness.  But if there's

 9     any -- I can imagine that if there's any translation issue, draw our

10     attention to the fact that there's a translation issue.  And if you say

11     for that reason --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'm not going

13     to suggest anything because we've already dealt with this extensively.  I

14     would just like to ask the translation interpretation service to focus on

15     item 1 of this order and to have this translated or interpreted verbatim.

16             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine, Mr. President.  I'd like to --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, please --

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Let me cover one -- I'm going to cover both aspects of that,

20     General, tomorrow as it appears.  But before I do, I want to look quickly

21     item 4, which provides that the prime minister of the Birac SAR is to

22     establish contact urgently regarding negotiations on the exchange of

23     prisoners.

24             So -- and in fact, those exchanges took place and it was the

25     Birac SAO government, according to you, which did that, right, or which

Page 34804

 1     undertook that?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 3     speaker.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you come a bit closer to the microphone.  Yes,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government and later the army

 7     dealt with that too.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, I understand, Mr. President.  The last thing

10     I'd mention is that the two missing pages were added to 65 ter 02559M, so

11     I believe it can now be admitted fully as P7354.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The number had been assigned already.  One second,

13     please.  Before I make any mistakes --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P7354.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P7354 is admitted into evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in fairness to the witness, could then item 1

17     of this order be translated again.  Be interpreted -- read and

18     interpreted.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I'm happy --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In response to the objection by ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If the translation would be verified before we

23     restart tomorrow, that would fully meet the wish of Judge Moloto.

24             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

25     tomorrow morning at 9.30.

Page 34805

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Yes, but before you leave the

 3     courtroom, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak or

 4     communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about your testimony;

 5     that is, testimony given today or testimony still to be given tomorrow.

 6             If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I -- I think the Chamber does

10     understand the use of the words in paragraph 1.  It will all be verified.

11             May I remind you that in your summary, I don't know what language

12     you used in B/C/S, but if you think it was not setting up, then the

13     interpretation perhaps should be verified as well because in English it

14     was role of the witness in setting up and not in organising.

15             So please check for yourself what you said at the time, but if it

16     adds to the confusion, I would have certainly --

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- tried to -- to avoid that.

19             We adjourn for the day.  We resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 29th

20     of April, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

23                           April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.