1 Tuesday, 28 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Are there any preliminaries? I did understand that the
12 Prosecution would like to make a submission on P7331, marked for
14 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Mr. President. Mr. Traldi, to whom
15 you addressed the inquiry, will address the Court, and I'm going to ask
16 him to move over here where I think it will be easier to communicate.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 And thank you for giving me the time to address the matter which
20 the President raised at the end of Thursday's session.
21 Our position is that the portions of Witness Boric's OTP
22 interview that we eventually tender are admissible for all purposes and
23 should be admitted for all purposes by the Trial Chamber under Rule 89(C)
24 rather than Rule 92 ter, bis, or quater consistent with what we
25 understand to have been the practice in this trial.
1 The Tribunal's jurisprudence holds prior inconsistent statements
2 admissible for the truth of their contents and holds that Rules 92 bis,
3 ter and quater do not apply in these circumstances. I'd point to, for
4 instance, the following authorities: Paragraph 31 of the Popovic Appeals
5 Chamber decision of the 1st of February, 2008; the Limaj trial decision
6 of 25 April 2005; the Seselj trial decision of 11 September 2008;
7 guidance in the Gotovina case issued on the 30th of March, 2010;
8 paragraph 19 of the Gotovina Trial Judgement; and paragraph 1289 of the
9 Djordjevic Trial Judgement. And if it would assist, I'm prepared to
10 discuss the implications of a couple of those decisions briefly if it
11 would be useful to the Chamber and to the Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If could you do that briefly, you're invited to do
14 MR. TRALDI: The Popovic and Limaj decisions, which were both
15 made in the context of a party's cross-examination of adverse witnesses
16 that it had called to the stand itself, addressed the issue in some
17 detail. Those decisions rejected requests to apply what they described
18 as a traditional common law rule against the admissibility of prior
19 inconsistent statements for the truth of their contents, noting both that
20 such a rule is, in those decisions' view, inapplicable to a mixed system
21 where fact-finding is made by professional judges rather than by juries
22 and noting the recent trend even in common law countries towards
23 admitting prior inconsistent statements for all purposes.
24 One example of the evaluation of such evidence can be found in
25 the Djordjevic trial judgement regarding official notes conducted by a
1 working group of RJB Serbia, and the Djordjevic Appeals Chamber in
2 paragraphs 395 through 397 of the appeals judgement explicitly addressed
3 the Trial Chamber's reliance on those notes, the Trial Chamber's analysis
4 of those notes, and found the Trial Chamber did not err in rejecting
5 contradictory witness evidence.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could you kindly slow down for the
7 interruption. Thank you.
8 MR. TRALDI: I apologise.
9 And did not err in relying on those notes for a set of meetings
10 for which they were the only evidence.
11 Our understanding of the approach in this trial is based in part
12 on the Chamber's guidance of 19 June 2012, which encouraged the parties
13 if they were concerned about the possibility of witnesses recanting
14 previously given evidence to lead the witnesses viva voce and then tender
15 their previously given evidence as prior inconsistent statements
16 consistent with the jurisprudence of the Tribunal; in other words, as we
17 understood it, to tender such prior statements for the truth of their
18 contents consistent with the Popovic and Limaj decisions, among others,
19 that I'd referred to earlier.
20 More recently, the Chamber inquired as to what purpose
21 Miodrag Dragutinovic's previous statements, P7156 and P7157, were being
22 tendered. The Prosecution took the position that the material should
23 come in for all purposes. We understand the Chamber to have accepted
24 that position.
25 Turning briefly to the specific instance. Mr. Boric's evidence
1 is a paradigmatic case for the admission of prior statements for all
2 purposes. His prior statements were made in an audio recorded interview
3 in which he was informed of his rights, asked if he wished to have a
4 lawyer present, advised that if he chose to answer questions his answers
5 would be recorded and could be used in evidence. These prior statements
6 thus have substantial indicia of reliability. The Trial Chamber can
7 evaluate his statements in light of his testimony both in general and on
8 the same points and in light of other evidence in the record and
9 determine the credibility of specific evidence provided during his
10 interview and during his testimony on that basis.
11 Now, just as a note, regarding that reliability point, we don't
12 always tender, for instance, a witness's solemn declaration when we
13 tender parts of previous testimony because we understand, and I think the
14 Defence will confirm, that there is no dispute that testimony at ICTY is
15 given pursuant a solemn declaration. In this instance to facilitate the
16 Chamber's review, we would intend to tender portions of the interview
17 which reflect the procedural safe-guards that I mentioned above.
18 Just to discuss one example very briefly regarding the operation
19 including the massacre in Biljani. Looking at his testimony, Mr. Boric
20 first claimed he was not aware of the operation at all. Later, after
21 saying he probably or maybe stood by portions of his interview related to
22 the details of that operation, testified that he was probably aware of it
23 as it was being carried out.
24 The Chamber, of course, can evaluate all of that evidence
25 together and determine what of his evidence it attaches weight to.
1 For completeness, Your Honours, there is one instance I'm aware
2 of where we've indicated that we would not rely on a prior inconsistent
3 statement for the truth of its contents. I'd respectfully submit that
4 instance supports this interpretation of the jurisprudence. We made that
5 representation in the context of a prior statement by
6 Witness Veselinovic, which we put to him, and he agreed, contained a
7 number of untruthful statements, to the point that our case, as we put it
8 to him, was that "almost nothing in the statement is true."
9 Our representation was specific to that instance and would not
10 have been necessary except that previous inconsistent statements
11 otherwise are admissible for the truth of their contents. We were simply
12 making clear on the record that there was no dispute that the contents of
13 that statement, now P6910, were not true before asking the Chamber to
14 rule on admission. And that had the effect of clarifying we were not in
15 the typical situation where such statements are admitted for all
17 We'd submit, however, that we are in that typical situation here,
18 as we were with the other witnesses with whom this issue has arisen.
19 Witness Boric's previous interview and the portions used with him during
20 court are relevant, reliable, and admissible for the truth of their
21 contents, in our submission, pursuant to Rule 89(C).
22 And that completes the submission I'd intended to make on the
23 matter, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
25 Could I take you back to page 2, line 24, 25, and then the first
1 lines of page 3. Could you repeat them because I think that not all of
2 it is recorded. You started by saying:
3 "One example of the evaluation of such evidence can be found ..."
4 And could you resume from there.
5 MR. TRALDI: Can be found in the Djordjevic trial judgement.
6 That Trial Chamber was analysing Official Notes taken by a working group
7 of RJB Serbia. They were admitted for all purposes. And it analysed
8 those notes and the weight to be afforded them in its judgement; for
9 instance, in paragraphs 1289 and 2113. The Djordjevic Appeals Chamber in
10 paragraphs 395 through 397 ... and this portion appears to be included in
11 its entirety. So I can repeat it, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think that's on the record, but there was a
13 large missing part. That's now on the transcript. I would have -- in
14 relation to that specific portion, I would have the following question.
15 SJB notes are not taken for Tribunal purposes. Isn't it true that at
16 least --
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: RJB. That at least at some points in time the fact
19 whether a statement was taken for Tribunal purposes or was taken by other
20 agencies made a difference, and therefore I wonder to what extent when
21 relying on these Official Notes whether that is similar to the situation
22 we have here where the interview was conducted by Tribunal officers.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'd referred to that -- and I take the point,
24 Mr. President. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond.
25 I'd referred to the Djordjevic example to illustrate how trial
1 chambers have addressed such evidence regarding the admissibility of
2 prior inconsistent statements taken for Tribunal purposes. The Seselj
3 decision to which I referred earlier, for instance, addresses that
4 question squarely. And I think the Gotovina guidance in citing the
5 Seselj decision, at least implicitly, adopts that rationale. And I can
6 check whether the other cases -- I don't remember at the moment the
7 source of the statements at issue in Limaj, and in -- and in Gotovina.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, any response.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a couple of sentences,
11 Your Honours. Good morning.
12 We carefully followed the arguments referring to the prosecutor's
13 suggestions using -- in relation to the evidence in the cross-examination
14 of Mr. Boric. We are taking into account the arguments and we would like
15 to quote court practice.
16 The fact is that at this point we have different standpoints on
17 the application of Rule 89 of the Rules, so we would kindly ask you to
18 give us until Monday so that we could state our position on this proposal
19 by the Prosecution. I come from a different system in Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina prompting me to take a different position, and I understand
21 the Prosecution's position, so that is why we would like to have time,
22 until Monday, to be able to state our own response to that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have until Monday. I immediately add to
24 that, Mr. Stojanovic, that the fact that you come from a different system
25 not necessarily prompts you to take a different position because all
1 parties are supposed to rely on the practice developed in this Tribunal.
2 Please keep that in mind, but we'll hear from you by next Monday.
3 Any other matter to be raised? Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 I don't know if my learned friend finished?
7 MR. TRALDI: I -- I had.
8 MR. LUKIC: My topic is not even close interesting legally as the
9 previous one.
10 I just wanted to draw your attention, Your Honours, that we were
11 scheduled to sit on May 22nd as a way of compensation for the next
12 non-working week. But since this next week is working for us now, we
13 have to go into the field in regard of re-opening of the Tomasica case.
14 We think that there is nothing to be compensated, and we would ask to --
15 for our organisational purposes, bringing witnesses, buying the tickets,
16 going into the field, to ask you whether you would reconsider your
17 decision to sit on Friday, 22nd of May this year.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, when we considered to compensate for
19 other days, that was in an earlier stage. The Chamber has decided that
20 we'll set on the 20 May as scheduled, although -- the 22nd of May. We'll
21 sit as scheduled, although the context in which this decision is now to
22 be considered is slightly different from when we gave that decision.
23 Many other days we're not sitting which were not known yet when we
24 decided to sit on the 22nd of May, so the compensation issue may have
25 been slightly changed, but we'll sit on the 22nd of May.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No other preliminaries.
3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, just very briefly, and the witness, I
4 assume, can be brought in for it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness already be escorted into the
6 courtroom. That would be Mr. Andric, I take it.
8 MR. TRALDI: Purely for the record a leftover matter from
9 Witness Boric's testimony. At the end of the first session on Thursday,
10 I'd used 65 ter 32447 which I neglected to tender. I am sure my friends
11 may need a little bit of time to express a position, but I'd just ask
12 that we be informed if there are any objections to its admission.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, are you already in a position to
14 respond or would you rather take the next 48 hours?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It would be a good thing to
16 wait, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would like to hear within the next
18 48 hours.
19 Please proceed.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andric.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
24 make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
25 May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: SVETOZAR ANDRIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Andric. Please be seated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
9 The Court may have anticipated me, I don't know, but I think a
10 90(E) advisement would be appropriate in this instance as was the case in
11 previous testimony.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objection to that,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's the protection of your own witness,
15 Mr. Stojanovic.
16 Mr. Andric, before we start hearing your evidence, I'd like to
17 draw your attention to Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
18 and I'll first read it to you. It reads:
19 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
20 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
21 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
22 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
23 offence other than false testimony."
24 This means that if a question is put to you and if you would
25 think that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate yourself, that you
1 may address me and ask to be relieved from answering that question. The
2 Chamber will then decide whether you are or not. Is that clear to you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Andric, you'll first be examined by
5 Mr. Stojanovic. You find Mr. Stojanovic standing to your left. And
6 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andric.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Since we both speak relatively quickly, I would like to ask you
13 to try to be as slow as possible because of the transcript.
14 And I would like to ask you, as is customary here, to tell us
15 your first and last name.
16 A. My name is Svetozar Andric, son of Petko.
17 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, Mr. Andric, if at one
18 point you told Mr. Karadzic's Defence -- or you provided a written
19 statement to the Karadzic Defence and you answered questions which were
20 put to you at that time?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at
23 65 ter 1D04788 in e-court, please. And could we also look at the last
24 page of the document.
25 Q. Mr. Andric, do you recognise the signature on this document?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Whose signature is that?
3 A. It's my signature.
4 Q. And the date on the left-hand side of the document, what about
6 A. The 16th of July, 2013.
7 Q. Is that something that you wrote in your own hand?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Andric, did you have the opportunity to read the statement
10 again while you were preparing to appear before the Tribunal today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And now that you have refreshed your recollection about the
13 contents of the statement, if I were to put the same questions to you now
14 as were put to you then and after having given the solemn declaration to
15 speak the truth and nothing but the truth, would you give identical
16 answers to those questions that were then put to you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And would those answers be the full truth and your full knowledge
19 about the matters that you spoke about in answer to the questions that
20 were then put to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
24 tender the statement of Andric, Svetozar which bears the 65 ter number
1 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Mr. President.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement receives number
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would also like
7 to tender three accompanying documents which bears 65 ter numbers 04702,
8 1D04789, and 1D04790.
9 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any ...
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 04702 receives number D1034.
14 1D4789 receives number D1035.
15 And 1D4790 receives number D1036.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D1034 through D1036 are admitted.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. With
18 your leave, I would like to read the summary of the statement of
19 Svetozar Andric.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Short summary, I take it.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Within the guide-lines that you
25 Witness Svetozar Andric is a professional military officer and is
1 retired now in the rank of lieutenant-general. He joined the VRS on the
2 19th of May, 1992 -- actually, there, since 19th of May 1992, he
3 performed during the war and after the war a series of responsible duties
4 beginning as commander of the Birac Brigade, then he was the Chief of
5 Staff of the Drina Corps, and then retired in 2002 from the post of
6 commander of the VRS 5th Corps.
7 In his statement, he will talk about the beginning of the war in
8 the Birac area about the forming of the VRS units in that area after the
9 JNA left, about the time and manner in which brigades were organised,
10 brigades which later joined the Drina Corps. He will explain the
11 documents dating from May and June 1992 which refer to questions and
12 problems in the system of command and control and particularly those
13 relating to unity of command in those initial days.
14 He will explain his position during his testimony in the setting
15 up of the camp for prisoners of war Susica, about the problems of the
16 population that was moving out, and the treatment of prisoners of war.
17 He will also talk about the intensity of the fighting with the enemy in
18 the area of responsibility of his unit, and about crimes against the
19 Serbian population in the Birac area.
20 He will also talk about the tasks, the role, and the movements of
21 his unit in the Krivaja 95 action. He will describe in detail the
22 movements of his units as well as his personal participation in the
23 action, starting from the 5th of July, 1995, in the broader sector of
24 Srebrenica, the intelligence data about the strength of the enemy who did
25 not abide by their obligation to demilitarise the enclave, about the
1 meeting with General Mladic in the Viogor village sector, the order to
2 continue the action towards Zepa, and the fighting that his unit waged in
3 this sector.
4 He returned to the headquarters in Sekovici with his unit on the
5 2nd of August, 1995. And on the 6th of August, 1995, the hand-over of
6 duty of the brigade commander took place between him and the new
7 commander, after which he practically took over the post of Chief of
8 Staff of the Drina Corps to which he was appointed in the interim by an
9 establishment decree.
10 Now, I would like to put some questions to the witness in order
11 to clarify a couple of things from the statement.
12 Q. Let us please focus on paragraph 13, D1033.
13 A. I'm sorry, I cannot see it on the monitor.
14 Q. You'll see it very quickly, General. Paragraph 13 of your
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could you please zoom in a
17 bit? Thank you.
18 Q. Can you see it now, General?
19 A. Yes, yes, but I'd need to have bigger letters, if possible.
20 Q. In this paragraph, you speak about the situation in the eastern
21 part of Birac and the central area at Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and
22 Glogova. In order to make your statement as concrete as possible, please
23 tell us about the torched Serb villages and the number of victims. Where
24 did you get these figures when you gave such an answer in your statement?
25 A. Your Honours, esteemed Mr. Stojanovic, in view of the time that
1 we have available, it's probably limited, I will try to refer to a
2 particular period when the Serb people suffered, that is the period from
3 end of September 1992 until mid-January 1993. In order for this to be
4 clearer to you, we shall start from the 24th of September, 1991, when a
5 purely Serb village, Podravanje, in the municipality of Vlasenica, was
6 torched. On that occasion, 70 Serb houses were torched, 32 persons lost
7 their lives, 16 were wounded, 43 went missing, 94 managed to --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Andric, I stop you. The question was where did
9 you get the figures? You are now explaining what happened, but the
10 question was a different one. Could you tell us where did you get those
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, I will
13 say that. But in order to have a full answer, I need to provide an
15 This information comes from the documentation centre
16 Republika Srpska, so I kindly ask -- I'll be very brief, but in the
17 coming period it's very important for me to explain all of this.
18 Then on the 26th in the municipality of Vlasenica, we --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what is important for us is what is asked,
20 and you've answered that question, that you got the figures from this
21 documentation centre. And if Mr. Stojanovic wants to know further
22 details, he'll ask you.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. I would just like to ask General Andric to focus on page 15, line
1 23 of today's transcript. What happened in the village of Podravanje
2 that you spoke about? Did that happen on the 24th of September 1991 or
3 in 1992.
4 A. It happened in 1992.
5 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify the record while we are
6 still here.
7 General, sir, in view of the time and the way in which we
8 function in this courtroom, my next question will be as follows. The
9 data that you have and that you tried to analyse according to events,
10 village, et cetera, is that what you speak of in paragraph 13, the number
11 of killed civilians and the number of Serb villages torched?
12 A. Yes. I just wish to speak about this concrete period; that is to
13 say, from September 1992 until January 1993. I would like to continue
14 along those lines.
15 After the 24th came the 26th and --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no. It's not for you to decide what is
17 relevant and important at this moment. That's for the parties. So
18 unless specifically asked about a certain event, you should just answer
19 the questions.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
22 Q. That is going to be my next question precisely, but please bear
23 in mind what you have just been told. Give us specifically these events
24 that you wish to refer to and that add up to this number.
25 A. The 26th in Vlasenica, the attack on Rogosija, 29 people were
1 killed and 30 were wounded and an entire Serb village was torched and
2 property destroyed.
3 Then on the 6th of November an attack from Kamenica. The attack
4 was carried out by Naser Oric personally with his troops from Srebrenica,
5 120 persons were killed, most of them civilians, five villages were
6 torched. Pathologists from the military medical academy documented that.
7 That is a crime that is unheard of.
8 Then on the 14th of December, the attack against the municipality
9 of Bratunac where Sikiric, Loznica, and Bjelovac were torched - three
10 villages, therefore - 58 persons were killed, 70 were wounded. All of
11 these three villages were looted and torched.
12 Then the attack against the local commune of Kravica on the 7th
13 of January, 1992; that is to say -- actually, 1993. Sorry. On Orthodox
14 Christmas Day. 48 persons were killed and over 50 were wounded and four
15 were taken prisoner. 17 Serb villages were torched and looted.
16 Then the municipality of Skelani was destroyed -- or rather
17 attacked. The local commune, rather, of Skelani. Then 62 persons were
18 killed, 82 persons were wounded, 5 were taken to a camp for civilians,
19 and over there in prison in Srebrenica two were killed on the spot due to
20 the beatings they had suffered. The total number of victims is 371,
21 fatalities that is.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the number, how
23 many Serb villages were torched.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is only within five months.
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The interpreters did not catch how much
1 villages were torched. Could you give the numbers again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 33 with regard to these six
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. Thank you, General, for your assistance.
6 A. Sorry, I would just like to say one more thing. In the
7 municipalities of Skelani and Bratunac, up until 1993, the month of
8 March, about 1322 persons were killed. Out of them, 750 were civilians;
9 522 were military conscripts. If we look at the percentage, we will see
10 that 12 per cent of the fatalities were women. Also 12 per cent were
11 over 65. And 3 per cent were children that were under age. So the
12 question is: Could these people have been armed? Could they have taken
13 part in armed --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- first of all, Mr. Tieger, is there
15 dispute about -- that in a large number of villages in that period of
16 time a large number of Muslims, Muslim civilians were killed -- Serbs.
17 I'm ...
18 MR. TIEGER: Without respect to particular statistics, I think
19 the Court is well aware of the fact that the -- and I believe that
20 question was answered most recently I think by Mr. Traldi in a similar --
21 or maybe Mr. Jeremy in a similar situation posed by the Court. Of
22 course, there's no dispute that there were atrocities on both sides or
23 all sides to the conflict at various times and during this period of time
24 as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You would not cross-examine the witness in order to
1 test the reliability of those figures?
2 MR. TIEGER: It's not my intention, no.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, this also demonstrates - and for
4 you, Witness, as well - it demonstrates that it's a waste of time what we
5 are doing now because there's no dispute about larger numbers of Serb
6 civilians being killed in a large number of villages during that period
7 of time.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, you -- you could have known this. Please
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't hear today
11 from my learned friend from the Prosecution that this is not in dispute,
12 the number of victims, the places --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question is whether all the specific
14 locations, whether those are relevant or not, the way in which it is
15 presented, I think, finds no -- no dispute with the Prosecution apart,
16 perhaps, from details, and I thought that that's the gist of what this
17 witness wanted to tell us as we find it in his statement. I think I was
18 clear that we don't have to know the names of one -- all 150 Serb
19 villages, neither would it assist us to have a calculation which amounts
20 exactly to thousands. That you didn't hear it today from the -- earlier
21 from the Prosecution is most likely because you didn't ask, and the
22 parties are invited and are expected to focus on what really is in
24 Please proceed.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall proceed, Your Honour.
2 Q. Let us please take a look at paragraph 17 of the witness's
3 statement, that is now D1033.
4 Paragraph 17. Just a brief question for the sake of
5 clarification, Mr. Andric.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say around the middle of paragraph 17:
8 "On the 8th of July, the unit was ordered to carry out the task
9 along the axis of Jasenovac-Caurka-Kostur-Alibegovac."
10 I would like to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether this
11 axis along your unit moved, as you were ordered in the task issued on the
12 8th of July, did that include the villages that were inside or outside
13 the boundaries of the enclave according to the demilitarisation agreement
14 from 1993?
15 A. Specifically these villages, Klokoc, Caurka, Kostur, were outside
16 the protected area. These were fortifications of the enemy. We had
17 fighting there and that was precisely one of the objectives, to separate
18 the two enclaves, to resolve the issue of these three locations.
19 Q. Thank you. And I'd like to finish by asking you something about
20 paragraph 26 of your statement. Please take a look at paragraph 26 of
21 your statement. That is to say, D1033.
22 Mr. Andric, you speak about the hand-over of duty here and also
23 where you went after that. However, I would like to ask you for the sake
24 of clarification to tell us in a bit more detail what your duties were
25 and where you went from the 8th of August, 1995, onwards; that is to say,
1 when you were appointed Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.
2 A. Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic, after receiving duty on the 8th of
3 August, in the period from the 14th and 15th of August, I was in Krajina.
4 At that time, there was one unit from the Drina Corps that was helping
5 out there. My wife's brother was killed there on that occasion. I was
6 supposed to get him out, but I didn't manage to. Then on the 16th of
7 September until the 22nd, I was in the area of Novi Grad, Bosanski Novi
8 in order to pull out 60 of our soldiers who had remained encircled there.
9 After arriving in the command of the Drina Corps on the 26th of
10 September and then until the 20th of October, I was in the area of the
11 Krajina, Mrkonjic Grad, Kljuc with a tactical unit, a tactical group, at
12 brigade level, where I was in charge on behalf of the Drina Corps to lead
13 that group.
14 On the 20th of October, I returned to the command of the
15 Drina Corps.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric. And those would be the questions the
17 Defence had for you at this point in time. Thank you very much, indeed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.
21 Mr. Andric, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Tieger. You find
22 Mr. Tieger to your right. Mr. Tieger is counsel for the Prosecution.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
25 Q. Good morning, General. We have about ten minutes before our
1 first recess --
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. -- so I'll address a few questions until that point.
4 In addition to your previous testimony in the Karadzic case,
5 which Mr. Stojanovic mentioned, you also testified about some of the
6 events described in your statement in this Court before -- in Belgrade in
7 the trial of Mr. Grujic and Branko Popovic, among others - that is,
8 Branko Popovic also known as Marko Pavlovic - in January 2007; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you testified under oath in that proceeding; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And so I presume your position is that you also told the truth to
13 that court?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the time we have, I wanted to ask you about some of the
16 backdrop to a number of the orders that are mentioned; that is, the
17 orders in late May by you that are mentioned in your statement.
18 So first of all, this Court has received evidence, that's P2799,
19 that on the 12th of May, 1992, the Assembly of the Serbian People in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina made a decision on forming the Army of the Serbian
21 Republic, and Article 2 of that decision provided that former units and
22 staffs of Territorial Defence are renamed into commands and units of the
23 army whose organisation and formation will be established by the
24 president of the republic.
25 That's consistent with your understanding of what transpired at
1 that time.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On the 18th of May in a meeting with General Mladic which is
4 reflected in his notebook, he told you that you were going to be the
5 commander of the Birac Brigade; correct? And that's P352, e-court pages
6 356 through 358 in English and 366 in B/C/S.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you, indeed, took over the brigade from then-acting
9 Commander Tacic on the 19th of May, 1992; correct?
10 A. 18th of May. On the 19th of May, the units were already in
12 Q. So that's the point at which Tacic left and you took over?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, he asked you to stay and organise people in the area and to
15 form brigades from the existing territorial units staffs; correct?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is "he"? Is it Tacic?
17 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry -- Tacic. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked me to form a brigade, not
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Correct. Thank you. So with that clarification, Tacic asked you
22 to form a brigade from the existing territorial unit staffs. And that's
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And in that context, the Birac Brigade was supposed to
1 take over all the competencies of the TO Staffs; correct?
2 A. Yes. From the 6th of June when the TO Staffs ceased to exist and
3 the commands of units of army -- of the Army of Republika Srpska came
4 into being. From the 6th.
5 Q. Well, we'll look at the 6th June order in a moment. But prior to
6 that time, you had been instructed by Tacic -- or asked by Tacic,
7 consistent with the 12 May decision on forming the army, to form your
8 brigade from the existing TOs. And in that context, you gave orders to
9 the -- the existing TO Staffs to undertake certain actions, including
10 providing you with units; correct?
11 A. No. The following is correct, if you permit me. Colonel Tacic
12 handed over a file, complete documentation of the brigade, and all he
13 said was, "May God help you. I'm going." And that was it.
14 Q. Understood. And I believe you've stated that previously. My
15 question was a bit different. I understand that Tacic left and left you
16 with responsibility to address the situation. But you referred to the --
17 to 6 June, on which date there was an order that we'll see in a moment.
18 That was the order to absorb or incorporate the existing TO Staffs and
19 the units in their entirety; correct?
20 A. Renamed.
21 Q. Right.
22 A. Yes, that is correct. Gradually to rename them to the commands
23 of the Army of Republika Srpska, and in some municipalities this lasted
24 for weeks.
25 Q. But prior to that time, consistent with the 12 May decision that
1 we referred to earlier and consistent with what Tacic told you about
2 assuming all the competencies, you gave orders to those TO Staffs to
3 yield units, to form units to undertake or not undertake actions and so
4 on; right?
5 A. I did not issue such an order. I acted pursuant to an order of
6 the 15th of May, 1992, from Colonel Tacic. Pursuant to an order. You
7 have that document.
8 Q. I wasn't suggesting that you initiated the process, General, just
9 that you followed up on that by issuing necessary orders to the TO Staffs
10 as required; correct?
11 A. Individually, yes, correct. Because all actions were carried out
12 pursuant to the order by Tacic.
13 Q. Well, we will, in a moment after the adjournment, get to the
14 issue of whether or not you have consistently maintained that all actions
15 were carried out pursuant to the order by Tacic. But before then, let me
16 continue with some of the chronology that leads to the --
17 MR. TIEGER: I see the time.
18 Q. Perhaps it won't be before that. When we resume after the break,
19 I will just address one more item before we discuss some of those orders.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, Mr. Andric. We'd like to see
21 you back in 20 minutes. You may now follow the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
3 the courtroom again.
4 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps we can meanwhile call up 65 ter 31629 and go
5 to -- well, we'll leave it at the cover.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We will proceed.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. General, just before we adjourned I indicated that I had one
10 additional document I wanted to bring to your attention by way of
11 backdrop before discussing some of the documents and orders mentioned in
12 your statement. On the screen now before you, you see a document dated
13 20 May 1992 from General Dencic, as you will see on the last page of the
14 document in the moment. And it's a document describing the current
15 political and military situation.
16 First of all, Dencic was the commander of the 17th Corps of the
17 JNA which formed the basis of the East Bosnia Corps, correct, and he
18 became - at least for a time - the commander of the East Bosnia Corps; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: And if we could turn to page 2 in the English and
22 page 2 of the B/C/S.
23 Q. There we see toward the top of the page in English and in the
24 second paragraph in B/C/S, General Dencic indicates, in this case four
25 days after the strategic objectives were announced at the 16th Assembly
1 Session in Banja Luka, that the situation is that the Serbian people
2 "must struggle for complete separation from the Muslim and Croatian
3 peoples and form its own state."
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we scroll up in the English version, please.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. And, General, you were made aware either directly through this
8 document or from general information provided by the command of the
9 East Bosnia Corps of this position of the political and military
10 leadership regarding the need for complete separation from the Muslim and
11 Croatian peoples; correct?
12 A. No, I wasn't informed about that.
13 Q. Were you aware of the strategic objectives?
14 A. I couldn't have known on the 20th in view of the fact that on the
15 19th I had just arrived in the area of responsibility of the future
16 brigade. On the 20th, I was asking myself, "Here did I come?" I needed
17 to get acquainted with the situation and find my feet.
18 Q. Yeah. Eventually, however, this information, that is, the
19 information we've just focused on regarding the need for complete
20 separation, was conveyed to you; correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So it's your position before this Court that you were never aware
23 during the entire pendency of your service in the VRS of the objective of
24 separation from the Muslim and Croats; is that correct?
25 A. Well, you're putting a different question now. First you asked
1 specifically about the date. And it's normal when Bosnia was illegally
2 recognised as a sovereign country that the government, or rather the
3 Serbian state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, reached the decision on the
4 7th --
5 Q. General, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Sorry to interrupt you.
6 I'm not asking you for your dissertation on the logic of the situation.
7 I focused you on what General Dencic stated in his military and political
8 situation assessment. You indicated that you were not aware of that on
9 the 20th, the date this was issued, and then I asked you if you became
10 aware of that. And you indicated no. So that's all I'm clarifying. Did
11 you become aware of the fact that one of the political and military
12 objectives was complete separation from the Muslim and Croats?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. After the referendum on the 1st of March, 1992, when the Muslims
16 voted to remain in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbs then said no, we
17 will remain in Yugoslavia.
18 Q. I take it that's by way of your explanation for how you consider
19 that this military and political situation assessment came about. That
20 wasn't my question but we'll move forward.
21 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 65 ter 31629.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7345.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 MR. TIEGER: Can we now call up P466.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. General, this is a document dated 28 May 1992 which bears your
4 name and signature. First of all, this is your order; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that is your signature; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This is an order of the 28th of May, 1992, to the Zvornik
9 Territorial Defence Staff. And as we can see, it begins by noting that
10 nothing had been done until that date to set up the 6th Infantry Brigade,
11 the AA Defence Light Artillery Division or the tank company, preventing
12 you from placing those units under your command.
13 And then after that preface, you go on, pursuant to the order on
14 the organisation of defence dated 15 May 1992 by Colonel Tacic, order a
15 number of things including the -- ordering the Zvornik TO Staff to carry
16 out the formation of those previously mentioned units; correct?
17 A. May I just correct you? The heading does not deal with the
18 formation of the 6th Infantry Brigade but the 6th Infantry Battalion.
19 This is a major difference. The rest is correct.
20 Q. Thank you. And --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But be that as it may, the document says
22 "brigade." Are you saying the document is incorrect; therefore, you're
23 correcting it?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least in the English it says --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, in the English.
1 JUDGE ORIE: PB stands for what? Could you tell us that,
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's an infantry battalion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the translation may have to be revised.
5 MR. TIEGER: We'll be happy to submit it for that purpose,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it's possible at all because B, battalion,
9 brigade, both words start, at least in English, with a B, and from what I
10 understand also in the B/C/S.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but I think for "brigade" there is
12 a different acronym, like Br.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It will be --
14 MR. LUKIC: A brigade cannot form brigade.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That will be revised. Let's move on
16 meanwhile in the understanding of the answer the witness has given as to
17 the battalion rather than brigade.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. And then in item 6 of the order, you direct that:
21 "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and
22 co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried
23 out. Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military
24 service are to be placed in camps for exchange."
25 Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement, General, you state that
1 the -- and that is your statement that was admitted here in Court today.
2 You state that the order to move out Muslim residents "referred to only
3 those Muslims who expressed the wish to go." Correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now, with respect to this last item, the Birac Serbian Autonomous
6 Region, or District, government adopted the same order; correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. TIEGER: If we can call up quickly P190.
10 Q. That's an order of the 31st of May, 1992, by you. And as we see
11 in the preface, it references that decision by the Birac Serbian
12 Autonomous Region government; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. And the decision by the Birac government, SAO government,
15 was adopted for the same reasons as your order; correct?
16 A. The decision by the SAO Birac government is something that I
17 don't know what it was based on. You have to ask them. But I can say
18 that it was adopted. But in my opinion, which may or may not be true,
19 but on the 22nd of May, 1992, an agreement was signed between all the
20 parties and Madam Ogata on the way in which the population will move out,
21 and I think that the leadership was guided by that agreement, by those
22 signatures on the agreement.
23 Q. Well, General, I was referring specifically to paragraph 4 of the
24 statement that was admitted in evidence here in Court today where you
25 state -- and you discuss item 6 of this order and state that:
1 "It is for these very reasons that the local civil authorities
2 also adopted the decision to organise the moving out of the Muslims."
3 So you state that --
4 A. I accept that. I do, I accept it.
5 Q. And I directed your attention to that, in particular, General,
6 because, in fact, the official reason given at the time, that is given
7 contemporaneously for this order to move out the Muslims, was not that it
8 was a response to requests by Muslims to be permitted to leave but that
9 it was adopted as a result of crimes Muslim extremists carried out
10 against Serbs in the area. That was the reason given at the time for the
11 order to move out the Muslims; correct?
12 A. That was in one paragraph of the Serbian government decision.
13 I -- I read it. It's one of the reasons. But as far as Muslims, Croats,
14 and Serbs are concerned, that was the date they agreed to move out the
15 population. The government of Birac called upon the population of Tuzla,
16 Kladanj, and other places to organise the safe moving out of the
17 population, taking particular care about the protection of each of the
18 three ethnic groups.
19 Q. The intention to address the perceived problem of crimes carried
20 out against Serbs by armed Muslims would not be addressed, General, would
21 it, by the -- by a course of action to simply allow those Muslims who
22 wished to leave to depart in an organised way, would it? In short, if
23 you are concerned about the people who are attacking you and want to
24 fight, letting a certain number of other people go is not going to
25 address that problem.
1 A. The question is not clear to me. I don't understand it.
2 Q. General, the question is this: The Birac -- this decision to
3 move out the Muslims was officially described as the result of - and,
4 therefore, the intention to address - crimes allegedly committed against
5 Serbs in the area, and that meant moving out Muslims whether they wanted
6 to or not; right?
7 A. That's one segment. One segment. And there are many segments.
8 In the area of responsibility of the Birac Brigade and in the
9 municipality, there were many armed individuals, units of the TO, units
10 of the Crisis Staffs of local communes on the Muslim side. Then there
11 were many paramilitary formations that were dangerous, dangerous from a
12 security point of view not only for Muslims but also for Serbs, and I
13 think that the leadership was guided by other segments, including this
14 one; that is to say, stop and prevent liquidations on both sides because
15 we had armed people then at that time. Also, soldiers in civilian
16 clothes, screening, triage had to take place in order to see who did
17 what. All of these are segments that the government of SAO Birac was
18 guided by, and of course my order was written in that context as well.
19 Not at a single moment was it written in order to have somebody killed.
20 On the contrary. The only aim was to protect people.
21 Q. General, this Court has received evidence that on June 6th, in
22 the official publication Javnost, the decision to move out the Muslims
23 was announced, the reason given as stated in Javnost is:
24 "The government decided to take this step as a result of crimes
25 Muslim extremists carried out against Serbs in the area."
1 And no other reason is given. That's P3737.
2 Were you aware at the time, General, that the only official
3 reason given for the decision to move out the Muslims was that it was
4 taken because of crimes allegedly carried out against Serbs in the area
5 by Muslim extremists?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly
8 ask - perhaps if would be fairer towards the witness - to be given P3737
9 so that he could see what it is that the Prosecutor is asking him about.
10 MR. TIEGER: No problem. I thought the question was brief enough
11 that it didn't require that. But if we could call up P3737, please.
12 Q. You'll see that on the top left, General, and you will be able to
13 quickly see the reference that I made: The government decided to take
14 this step as a result of crimes Muslim extremists carried out against
15 Serbs in the area.
16 A. Well, if we want to go back, I can. I thought that was a waste
17 of time. I Just referred to one segment. This is what date, the 30th of
18 May, is it? Is that right, the 30th of May? We'll be being back.
19 Q. The article refers to the decision of the 30th of May.
20 A. Well, let me just tell you the Tuzla column occurred on the 15th
21 of May. You know yourself how many people were killed then. Let's not
22 waste time now. Then the municipality of Kalesija, where I was born by
23 the way. All the Serb villages. All the people there were killed. Also
24 on the 7th of April, the Muslim side organised units and they stopped a
25 column of the regular army. Please. You asked me about this.
1 Q. General, I'm sorry -- no, I didn't ask you that question, sir.
2 Let me -- can I assume based on your answer -- General, can I assume
3 based on what you're just saying that you're explaining to me why this
4 decision was adopted for those reasons, for the reason given in the
5 article; correct? You explained to me the backdrop -- what you say is
6 the backdrop to the decision to move out the Muslims as a result of
7 crimes committed against Serbs; right?
8 A. I can just speak of one segment.
9 Q. And if we have the -- that's the information, okay. And you're
10 indicating to me you're speaking about that particular segment of what
11 you understand to be the order. I think you've made that clear before.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
13 speaker. There are too many microphones on.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. General, the interpreters could not hear your last remark. If
16 you could repeat it, please.
17 A. What I said is that that is only part of that segment. But you
18 did not allow me to speak about the other crimes that were committed
19 before this decision was reached.
20 Q. Understood. Well, let's set aside for the moment the
21 contemporaneous explanation for the decision to move out the Muslims. In
22 any event, General, many of the people who were moved out were rounded up
23 or captured before they expressed any desire to leave. And specifically
24 at the moment, I'm referring to what you have previously said about the
25 portion of your order directed at the men fit for military service.
1 MR. TIEGER: So let's turn back to P466.
2 Q. As we see in item 6, it provides that men fit for military
3 service are to be placed in camps for exchange. And as you've explained
4 in paragraph 5 of your statement, that portion of the order refers to
5 "after they were captured, we first had to establish who among them had
6 been active participants in armed conflict."
7 So this -- the -- this portion of the order, referring to men fit
8 for military service, refers to a body of people who were captured.
9 That's correct, isn't it?
10 A. What is written there is able-bodied military-aged men should be
11 separated. They should be identified. One should see who it was that
12 had taken part in the armed conflict -- armed conflicts. Whether anyone
13 of them had committed any crimes against the civilian population or
14 whether they had assisted the armed forces of the enemy in some other
16 All of that, because we, in the Tuzla canton - Zivinice, Kladanj,
17 Olovo - had a large number of POWs. From my village, Jeginov Lug
18 specifically, all old men were taken to the public security station in
19 Tuzla, all of them over the age of 60. So thanks to that and other
20 people that we had in the camps we exchanged these people. So the aim
21 was not to have liquidations take place because in Zvornik we had many
22 paramilitary units, many paramilitary units. After all, I think that we
23 are wasting time as far as this order is concerned.
24 On the 31st, I issued an order by way of a request, a plea to the
25 TO staff where I ask the commander of the TO Staff, since he had not
1 organised units, that he send me an officer for further co-ordinated
2 action. So it is pointless to talk about all of this because my order
3 was never accepted by the commander of the TO Staff. So we're wasting
4 time because this was never materialised.
5 Q. General, you have just stated, and you stated before, that
6 between the time of your May 28th order to the Zvornik TO command and the
7 time of the May 31st handwritten document to which you've just referred
8 where you make a request rather than an order, you came to realise that
9 your order of May 28th had not been obeyed because the Zvornik TO Staff
10 made decisions independently. That's what you state in your statement;
12 A. That's the way it was.
13 Q. Well, let me call up first 65 ter 32496.
14 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that.
15 Witness, could you please explain to me -- you said these people
16 even over 60, we had them there and they were exchanged. That was good
17 for them, that's how I understood your testimony, because they would be
18 safe. Is that well understood?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That pertained to Serb
20 civilians from the municipality of Kalesija, Jeginov Lug who had been
21 arrested and taken to prison in Tuzla. They were over the age of 60,
22 most of them; elderly men, women, and children.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And you then said:
24 "So thanks to that and other people that we had in the camps we
25 exchanged these people. So the aim was not to have liquidations take
1 place because in Zvornik we had many paramilitary units ..."
2 I understood that there was some fear that the paramilitary units
3 in Zvornik might harm the people which you had then in the camps. Is
4 that well understood?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, this includes non-military -- non-soldiers,
7 even if they would have been at -- of military age. Is that correctly
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It says there unambiguously,
10 military age, able-bodied men. That's what it says in my statement and
11 in the explanation --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But still if you're able bodied and of
13 military age, that doesn't make you a soldier, does it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right. But next
15 it says to carry out screening, triage. So if somebody had not committed
16 a crime, had not taken part in armed conflicts, then these people would
17 be released, and they could go to Muslim territory if that is what they
18 wished to do. Now those who expressed the wish to say, could stay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So they were not put there for exchange but --
20 I'm again -- but looking at the document, I don't think it says that they
21 were there to be investigated, whether they had committed crimes or not.
22 You added that. But that's not found in the document, is it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this other document of the
24 30th, I order that the security organ interview people and supply all the
25 necessary information to the command. So to check, to double-check who
1 out of these people took part in war crimes or committed some other
2 crime. And then from these camps, Your Honour, those who had not done
3 anything were released from these camps and went towards Kladanj. I will
4 give you many examples, many dates when we organised --
5 JUDGE ORIE: So they were not exchanged but you just released
6 them to be free to do what they wanted to do. Is that how I have to
7 understand it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Those who wished to
9 remain in Republika Srpska could stay, and those who wished to leave
10 could go towards Kalesija, Zivinice, Tuzla, or Cerska.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did you keep records of those who were not exchanged
12 but were offered freedom to go wherever they wanted to go?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you will see later that I as
14 brigade commander ordered the battalion commander in Vlasenica to work
15 out an entire paper about security, accommodation, everything that has to
16 do with POWs and everything the POWs are entitled to.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's prisoners of war. But I'm talking about
18 that category of persons who were not soldiers, though perhaps of
19 military age and able-bodied, who were free to go. That's not POWs.
20 That's a different category. And I asked you, and have not answered that
21 question, whether you -- whether you kept a record of those who were free
22 to go, was -- did you keep such a --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have information now
24 about documentation of that kind. This selection was made automatically.
25 They left. I really cannot --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, automatically. They were put in those camps
2 on your order. Doesn't that bring a certain responsibility to verify
3 whether what was not found in the order; but, as you explained it to us
4 now, that they were sent there for triage and that everyone was
5 automatically free to go, wouldn't it be your responsibility after you
6 had ordered them to be detained also to look after, that they were not
7 treated as prisoners of war but that they were treated as civilians free
8 to go wherever they wanted to go?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I repeat, at brigade level,
10 every brigade has a location where POWs are assembled. At such a
11 location, a triage takes place. So prepare not taken to a camp, but it
12 on this location that the triage takes place.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, indeed, you are repeating your answer and
14 it's still not an answer to my question.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. General, what's on the screen now is an order dated the 30th of
18 May, 1992, by East Bosnia Corps Commander Dencic, providing that the
19 Zvornik municipal TO is to be transformed into the command of the Zvornik
20 infantry brigade of the East Bosnian Corps of the Army of the Serb
21 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 General, what happened between May 28th, 1992, when you gave the
23 Zvornik TO an order to do what they hadn't done previously, and May 31st,
24 your handwritten note to them where you make a request for co-ordination,
25 is that you learned that the Zvornik TO was not independent but was
1 simply going to become a sister brigade in the East Bosnia Corps. That's
2 the reality, isn't it?
3 A. If I understood your question, the document of the 31st of
4 May itself shows that I am requesting, kindly asking the TO Staff to send
5 an officer to me in order to organise co-ordinated action. From that,
6 one can see that I did not have any power over the TO Staff at all
7 because basically they were not carrying out my order of the 28th May.
8 They were not establishing units as I had said, and they were using them
9 without my approval. At will. So I was not in command at a single point
10 in time.
11 Q. General, my question was different. You relied upon the May 31st
12 request to the Zvornik TO command in contrast to your May 28th order to
13 indicate to this Court that that demonstrated that the Zvornik TO was
14 independent. The reality was that up to the 28th, you were aware of the
15 chain of command and knew that you had the power to order the Zvornik TO
16 to do things; but by the 31st you had learned that they were going to be
17 transformed into a sister brigade, not that you found out they were some
18 kind of independent group. That's the reality.
19 A. No, I did not know.
20 Q. Let's turn then to 65 ter --
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. TIEGER: And if I could tender 32496 before we move onto
23 another document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7346.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P7346 is admitted.
2 MR. TIEGER: And if we could turn to 65 ter 32499, English
3 page 71, B/C/S page 39.
4 Q. This is your testimony before the Belgrade Court conducting the
5 trial of Branko Grujic and Marko Pavlovic. And there you state:
6 As early as on the 31st I received information, since the
7 municipality president had asked that the Zvornik Brigade be established,
8 there was no longer any point for me to insist on the establishment
9 because it was only a matter of three days.
10 And then as early on the 31st, was forced to propose that we
12 And similarly if we turn to page 64 in the English and page 35 in
13 the Serbian, you state in the course of --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have to wait for the B/C/S to appear. Thank
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. You state in the course of discussing what happened in the three
18 days between the May 28th order and the 31st May request, that you:
19 "... received information that the Zvornik Brigade was being
20 established. Then there was no point for two or three days to cause
21 problems regarding organisations and reorganisation."
22 So, General, contrary to what you just told the Court, that you
23 didn't know that the Zvornik TO was about to be transformed into a sister
24 brigade, that's precisely what you knew and precisely what you told the
25 Belgrade Court in 2007; correct?
1 A. I said that to the court and I'm not denying that. However, it's
2 politicians, local politicians that were planning that. As for the chain
3 of command, I did not receive any orders. So for me, the superior
4 command is the law.
5 MR. TIEGER: I'll be tendering those excerpts, Mr. President, but
6 I believe there may well be more so we may --
7 JUDGE ORIE: We could have a number reserved for it.
8 Madam Registrar could you reserve a number for the excerpts of
9 these court proceedings in Belgrade.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7347.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.
12 Mr. Tieger, if you have done with this page.
13 Witness, I read a little bit further down in that page:
14 "Because I know that Mr. Grujic kept insisting on the
15 establishment of the Zvornik Brigade, because they have their own
16 brigade, and I absolutely supported this and requested the superior
17 command to have the Zvornik Brigade established as soon as possible."
18 Now, that's not the TO acting independently but that is the
19 Zvornik TO becoming the Zvornik Brigade with a common superior command,
20 your brigade, and the Zvornik Brigade. Therefore, I do not fully
21 understand what you mean if you say they acted independently. Perhaps
22 independently from you, but they acted under the same superior command
23 which you addressed to encourage the quick establishment of the
24 Zvornik Brigade. That's how I understand what you're saying here and
25 what I have difficulties in reconciling with the TO acting independently.
1 Any comment on what I just said?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that you understood this
3 well. The TO acted independently in relation to the army because it was
4 only on the 6th of June that an order was made for the units and the
5 staffs of the TO to be renamed into commands of units of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. That process in certain municipalities lasted up until
7 the end of the year, even. I can guarantee that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Witness, the fact is that the Zvornik Brigade, by way of example,
11 was established in actual fact on the 2nd of June and, indeed,
12 Colonel Blagojevic received the brigade on the 2nd of June; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now you refer to the 6th of June. But as we discussed before,
15 that was the Ilic order, which this Court has received, that's P3739, of
16 the 6th of June, absorbing or incorporating all the current TO Staffs,
17 not just portions of their units, into the Army of Republika Srpska.
18 And, in fact, you implemented that order on the 8th of June; right?
19 A. I'm telling you that is an order of the 8th of June. In order to
20 rename all these staffs and units, that requires time.
21 Commander Blagojevic, the brigade commander, when he arrived, he
22 established the brigade. And the TO Staff functioned along parallel
23 lines in terms of Colonel Blagojevic. I've been trying to explain that
24 all the time, but it seems that I haven't succeeded.
25 Q. Well, let's look at two things.
1 MR. TIEGER: Firstly quickly, 65 ter 32497.
2 Q. That is your order implementing the order of the
3 East Bosnia Corps command on the 6th of June, to which we referred a
4 moment ago, and which is also pursuant to Article 2 of the decision to
5 establish the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH, which you referred to
6 earlier on in your testimony, and it provides that those TO Staffs and
7 units shall all be renamed commands and units of the Army of the Serbian
8 Republic and that all of them, the units and the staffs, shall become
9 part -- that is, all of them in the above-mentioned municipalities shall
10 become part of the Birac Brigade.
11 That's correct, isn't it? That's your order making those
12 provisions and directing those actions to be taken?
13 A. Yes. This is my order, correct. But I have already explained to
14 you the process of establishment and how TO Staffs and units grew into
15 units of the Army of Republika Srpska. To understand what I've been
16 saying more easily, the Supreme Command, and everyone knows who the
17 Supreme Commander is, Mr. Karadzic, is responsible for establishing units
18 and organising them. And it's only on the 21st of May that an
19 organisational order was issued, and general mobilisation was -- actually
20 in order to mobilise the army, the armed people, the military-aged
21 population, you need at least a month in order to carry out mobilisation.
22 So up until the end of the war, we had some of these staffs that
23 we could not -- could not fit into the units of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska.
25 Q. General, the reality is that both before and after its
1 incorporation or transformation into the Zvornik Brigade, that is, the
2 transformation which took place on the 2nd of June, the Zvornik TO was
3 implementing the moving out of the Muslims.
4 A. I cannot discuss that because I really wasn't involved in that.
5 So you cannot really ask me about things that I'm not informed about.
6 Q. Well, General, I'm going to suggest that giving an order to the
7 Zvornik TO on the 28th of May regarding the moving out of the Muslims and
8 the placing of military-age men in camps for exchange does involve you.
9 And in that respect, I want to take a look at some of the evidence of
10 what was happening in Zvornik at that time.
11 So, first -- well, given the time perhaps it's best to break and
12 pick it up when we resume. If we have -- I don't know -- if we have two
13 minutes, I'm wrong. Then if we have -- okay. Then it's probably best to
14 break at this point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll take a break.
16 Witness, would you please follow the usher. We'll resume in 20
18 MR. TIEGER: And I failed to tender 32497, the 8 June 1992 order.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7348.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
23 We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes past 12.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.48 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Andric, Mr. Tieger will now continue his
5 Is there a matter you would like to raise?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I
7 wanted to suggest the following in order to use our time better, not to
8 deal with Zvornik because I have no responsibilities or authority there.
9 I think we have more burning problems and it seems to me that the time is
10 going very slowly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the parties decide on what matter they want
12 to examine you. If you are concerned about not wasting time, I would
13 suggest that you carefully listen to the question and answer that
14 question alone.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. General, before we adjourned I indicated to you that I was going
18 to direct your attention to evidence of what happened in Zvornik between
19 the time of your May 28th order, including item 6 regarding the moving
20 out of the Muslims, and the time that the Zvornik TO became the
21 Zvornik Brigade on the 2nd of June. And in that respect, I wanted to
22 direct your attention to P425, evidence in the Karadzic case. That's at
23 e-court page 4. As I advised my friends from the Defence, I would --
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President?
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Tieger.
1 Witness, there's no need to seek eye contact either with the
2 Defence or the accused. I noticed that when entering the courtroom your
3 first concern was to greet Defence and accused before you -- with your
4 eyes, with your gestures. I invite you to refrain from doing that and
5 rather focus on questions, answers, and the Court.
6 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. As I was about --
9 A. I apologise. Don't I have the right to address the Defence?
10 JUDGE ORIE: You are instructed to refrain from seeking eye
11 contact even during examination by the Prosecution. Rather, focus on
12 what Mr. Tieger asks you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
15 Q. As I advised my friends during the break, I would be --
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. -- summarising the testimony given, giving them an opportunity to
18 follow it. But because it's in English, I didn't consider it necessary
19 to -- for the witness to have to track it word by word.
20 Witness -- General, this witness provided the following
21 information about what happened between the 28th of May and the 2nd of
22 June. Testifying that on the 30th of May, 1992, Serbian Radio Zvornik
23 broadcast that all citizens from the Drinjaca-Kostijerovo area requested
24 to stay at home and not panic because the army will arrive. About an
25 hour later, soldiers arrived. About 150 men, women, and children -- and
1 that's found at e-court pages 10 and 11. About 150 men, women, and
2 children rounded up, told to form a column, and taken to the Dom Kulture
3 in Drinjaca, e-court pages 12 through 13. It was jam packed with
4 hundreds of Muslims, that's at 14. And they were told by an officer, a
5 uniformed officer that they were going to be transferred to some villages
6 near Zenica and that Serbs would take their former homes. Only women and
7 children would leave, while men would remain to be interviewed, e-court
8 page 15. Approximately 90 men were murdered at the Dom Kulture, e-court
9 pages 28 and 31.
10 And similarly another statement --
11 MR. TIEGER: But for this one I think out of an abundance of
12 caution we should perhaps move into private session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. So, General, to recap, I just provided you with the information
9 that on June 1 another example of a village being surrounded, its
10 population rounded up, the men separated from the women and children,
11 taken to a facility wherein in that case many were murdered.
12 Now, as I indicated, these events occurred in Zvornik in late
13 May or the beginning of June 1992. Do you confirm these events, dispute
14 these events, or say you simply don't know?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer. The
17 interpreters could not catch it. Perhaps you come a little bit closer to
18 the microphone.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. As a general matter, however, General, you would acknowledge that
22 forced displacement and killings took place in Zvornik subsequent to the
23 orders to move out the Muslims; correct?
24 A. I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. What about the forced departure of the Muslim population from
1 Kozluk. You're aware of that, aren't you?
2 A. I am aware of it by reading about it in the papers, and I keep
3 saying that but it seems that it's not doing any good. The brigade
4 general didn't -- commander didn't have any responsibilities regarding
5 the Birac Brigade, so I don't know why you are putting things to me that
6 have nothing do with me.
7 Q. You're the brigade commander of an important unit of the
8 East Bosnia Corps, and in the adjacent municipality where a sister
9 brigade is operating the Muslim population is being forcibly displaced
10 consistent with an order that you gave and an order given by the Birac
11 government, and you don't consider that in any way, shape, or form any
12 part of your responsibility or interest, General?
13 A. Absolutely. I don't have any responsibility in that regard, not
14 even a minimal degree of it.
15 Q. You have already indicated to this Court you were aware of
16 liquidations of the Muslims in Zvornik; correct? Because you claim that
17 was, in part, what prompted your order of the 31st of May.
18 A. Evidently we're going back to the same thing, and I have to
19 repeat, Your Honours, other than what we stated before, a large number of
20 Serbs from Tuzla, Zvornik, and Zivinice came. They were desperate. They
21 were angry, and it was our problem how to protect those Muslims from
22 being exposed to revenge.
23 Q. Sorry, General. You are off --
24 A. I don't know what you were asking of me.
25 Q. You were aware in May and June of 1992 that Muslims who were
1 rounded up, captured, placed in camps, were being liquidated in camps in
2 Zvornik; right?
3 A. I had some pieces of -- individual pieces of information, but not
4 official information. I had individual bits of information, and that's
5 why I did take some measures in my area of responsibility.
6 Q. And you blamed those liquidations on paramilitary groups;
8 A. I cannot blame. Again, you're putting me in the situation of
9 asking me. I'm not the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, so I have no
10 intention of answering questions like that. Why I would answer when I
11 was not the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Because the question is put to you, and you should
13 answer any question to the best of your knowledge if it is put to you.
14 So therefore I now repeat the question: Do you or do you not blame those
15 liquidations on paramilitary groups?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary formations bear
17 the bulk of responsibility generally in the entire Birac area.
18 JUDGE ORIE: For -- for everything?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So to quite some extent, you do blame the
21 paramilitaries for those liquidations?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say for the most part. As
23 far as I know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. And specifically with regard to Zvornik, you're talking about
2 such well-known paramilitary groups as the Yellow Wasps headed by
3 Zuco Vuckovic; correct?
4 A. There were several of these paramilitary formations. That one
5 was one of them. But I don't know specifically who committed these
6 things. I cannot really say with any degree of certainty.
7 Q. Well, General, I'm going to suggest to you that by pointing the
8 finger at so-called paramilitary groups for these liquidations, you're
9 doing something similar to what you were doing in calling the Zvornik TO
10 independent. That is, you're ignoring their actual subordination. And
11 the fact is that you were aware of the fact, for example, that these
12 paramilitaries were supposed to be subordinated to the Zvornik TO and
13 later the Zvornik Brigade; correct?
14 A. Yes. But I would like to remind you that these paramilitary
15 formations in Zvornik did whatever they wanted. They even captured the
16 president of the municipality, Mr. Grujic. So that was the ratio of
17 strength in Zvornik.
18 Q. General, the fact is that these particular groups - specifically
19 Zuco's group - was being paid by the Zvornik TO and later by the
20 Zvornik Brigade, and they were subordinated. That's the truth; right?
21 A. I don't know that. That is something that you have to ask those
22 who were authorised to pay them.
23 Q. Well, let me turn quickly to a couple of items then.
24 MR. TIEGER: First, 65 ter 32502. And if we could go to the last
25 page of that document.
1 Q. This is a TO payroll list signed by Marko Pavlovic, indicating
2 payment to Zuca Vuckovic as a TO member for military activity between the
3 1st and 17th of May, 1992.
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to turn to another document quickly
5 because we'll see quite a number of the same names in this document.
6 That's 65 ter 32276.
7 Q. This is a document, as you'll see in a moment, headed the 1st
8 Infantry Battalion. And we'll see on page 4 of this document, in both
9 English and Serbian, payment for salaries or of salaries for June 1992.
10 We see the stamp of the Zvornik municipality on the top of the Serbian
12 And on page 32 of the English -- 7 of the English and 32 of the
13 Serbian -- no, excuse me, that's the wrong cite. 77 through 79 in the
14 Serbian. We can see the references to the 1st Infantry Battalion and
15 Zuca's group within that, including Vojin Vuckovic and his brother
16 Dusan Vuckovic.
17 MR. TIEGER: English page 32, if I didn't make that clear.
18 Q. And a comparison of those payment lists will also indicate, as I
19 mentioned a moment ago --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are not the corresponding pages.
21 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. It should be 32 of the English and 77
22 through 79 of the Serbian.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you say 77 through 79, you should indicate
24 which one you want to have on the screen.
25 MR. TIEGER: We'll start with 77 then. It is a confusing
1 direction to the Registrar.
2 Q. And there we can see Vojin Vuckovic and Dusko Vuckovic and so on,
3 scrolling down.
4 And finally, if we could turn to 65 ter 18491, English page 7 and
5 B/C/S page 32. This is the Zvornik Brigade duty book.
6 MR. TIEGER: And should be English page 7, Serbian page 32.
7 Q. Okay. And as we see, we see the entry at 0530, Zuco's courier
8 came, gave us the message that Zuco wants to know what to do next and
9 whether he should come to the command.
10 General, these documents, you'll agree, indicate that not only
11 was Zuco's group supposed to be subordinated for the Zvornik TO and
12 subsequently the Zvornik Brigade, but in fact they were; correct?
13 A. I don't know any of these documents so that I'm not -- I don't
14 have an answer.
15 Q. Well, I'll turn to some of the information you did have.
16 MR. TIEGER: But I'd tender those three documents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 32502 receives number
20 Document 32276 receives number P7350.
21 And document 18491 receives number P7351.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7349 through P7351 are admitted into evidence.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. Well, in fact, General, contemporaneously, you were well aware of
25 Zuco and the Yellow Wasps and in fact met them when they came to Kalesija
1 in late May to participate in combat operations; right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And at that time they were resubordinated to the Kalesija TO
4 staff in order to engage in those combat operations in Kalesija; correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, General, perhaps we can look at some of what was happening
7 in other parts of the region beyond Zvornik. So let me look, in
8 particular, at evidence this Court has received about what happened in
9 Seher near Osmace on the 27th of May, 1992.
10 MR. TIEGER: And I'll be referring to P2528, which is under seal
11 in this case, Mr. President, but I'll do so in a manner that doesn't
12 implicate the reasons for the confidentiality.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But at least not to be shown --
14 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Or still to be shown but --
16 MR. TIEGER: No, I think my friends can follow and therefore we
17 don't risk comprising the confidentiality in any way. Yeah. Okay.
18 Q. Now, as I indicated, this concerns what happened in Seher which
19 is near Osmace in what was part of the Kalesija municipality before the
20 conflict. Can we --
21 MR. TIEGER: Okay. This is not broadcast, correct? Right.
22 And -- I don't think this -- this shouldn't be on the -- there is no need
23 to put this on the screen. Let's just move this off screen, please.
24 Q. That evidence, as the Court has received, is that on the 27th of
25 May, 1992, Serbs in military uniform and some in civilian clothing
1 collected the Muslims of Seher together, separated the men from the women
2 and children, and transported them to Osmace town. And from there, the
3 men were transported to Paprace school gym, from there to the Vlasenica
4 secondary school, and there from Susica, and ultimately onward to
5 Batkovic in the case of this particular person.
6 So once again as we saw in the case of Zvornik, the rounding up
7 of the people from the village and separation of the men from the women
8 and children and their placement in detention facilities.
9 General, the collection of Muslims of Seher on the 27th May,
10 1992, the separation of the men from the women and children, the
11 placement of those men in camps and detention facilities, that was the
12 implementation of your order to move out the Muslims, separating the men
13 from the women and children and putting the men in camps for exchange,
14 wasn't it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You issued an order --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We didn't receive the full interpretation of the
19 Witness, could you repeat your last answer, please, and move a
20 little bit further to the microphone.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said no and I can also provide an
22 explanation if necessary.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. General, the military forces operating in that area received an
2 order from you the day before to do precisely that, didn't they?
3 A. The order was received, and if you allow me to do so, I shall
5 First of all --
6 Q. General, before you explain let's have the Court take a look at
7 that order.
8 MR. TIEGER: I call up P7086.
9 Q. That's an order dated 26th of May 1992 to the commander of the
10 Light Infantry Battalion Osmace. That's your order, General, isn't it,
11 and it's signed by you?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot understand or
13 hear the speaker.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, perhaps the usher would assist in
15 adjusting the microphone, if you are leaning towards... yes. Perhaps it
16 should be moved slightly -- a little bit further. Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the top it's not the brigade.
18 It's the infantry battalion.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. I'm not sure what your point is there, General. I think that's
21 exactly what I said. It's an order from you to the commander of the
22 infantry battalion, Osmace, and it's your order and it's signed by you;
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And it provided, among other things, in item -- now here looking
1 at item 6:
2 "Move women and children out of the Muslim villages to Kalesija
3 and Gracanica whereas the men are to be taken away to collection
5 Now that meant move the women and children from the villages they
6 inhabited to Muslim-held parts of the municipality of Kalesija and to
7 Gracanica in the Zivinice municipality; correct?
8 A. Yes. But allow me to explain.
9 Q. Okay. Now you can explain.
10 A. This order pertained to all, not only Muslims. Serbs were also
11 moving out because this was a combat area. So at the same time Serbs
12 left, went to Zvornik and Srbinje. In order to protect the people there,
13 I ordered that women and children be allowed to go to Kalesija and
14 Gracanica because of combat operations. Then also because of revenge.
15 People, refugees were coming in from Gracanica, Kalesija, Tuzla,
16 and we had to prevent any kind of revenge that could be taken by them,
17 and that is why I have to say that it is precisely this order of mine
18 that saved thousands of people. Had we left these people in the combat
19 area, I believe that many would not be alive today. So it is precisely
20 this order that contributed.
21 And later on, we will see that the same persons were exchanged
22 and that to this day they live together with their families.
23 Q. Okay. So --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a question.
25 MR. TIEGER: Certainly.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, can you give us an order that was made
2 similar to this one with respect to the Serbs?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the order specifically in
4 Vlasenica, for instance. The Crisis Staff of Vlasenica. The very moment
5 when --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just listen to my question. Are you able to
7 provide a written order similar to this one with respect to Serbs? Not
8 asking you where it was.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I cannot do that in
10 writing because I have no ability to do so right now. But there were
11 such orders precisely because of the combat operations taking place.
12 Because that was a combat area.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you a -- also a question in relation to
16 Could you tell us how many Serb women and children were
17 removed -- were moved out through this order from Muslim villages to
18 Kalesija and Gracanica.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Muslim villages? As for the
20 municipality of Kalesija, practically the entire Serb population, women
21 and children, they went to Zvornik and to Serbia. The only ones that
22 stayed were --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm asking you how many Serbs, women and
24 children, were moved out of Muslim villages and then taken to Kalesija
25 and Gracanica? I'm not talking about any other villages. I'm talking
1 about Muslim villages, how many Serbs were moved out from there?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Serbs were not being moved
3 out. That was territory that was controlled by Muslim, so we cannot move
4 Serbs out, can we?
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. But you earlier said it would apply equally to
6 Muslims and Serbs. But if only Muslims are living there, the effect is
7 that it's only Muslims that will be moved out, isn't it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether -- well, from
9 the combat zone, both Muslims and Serbs were moved out because that was
10 basically a front line. We did not have any depth in our front,
11 Mr. President. We did not have a -- a depth of the front. We just had
12 the front line. So how could you control what was happening in depth?
13 Just one example: A brigade defends 10 to 15 kilometres principle,
14 whereas the zone of my brigade is 150 kilometres. 150 kilometres. Along
15 one line, you have 100 kilometres in depth. You cannot prevent revenge.
16 You cannot --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's not what I asked. So this order
18 specifically focused at moving out women and children from Muslim
19 villages. That is to say, Muslim women and children. Is that well
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. General, you told this Court just a moment ago that "practically
1 the entire population" of the municipality of Kalesija was Serb. In that
2 regard, let's take a look at 65 ter 025591.
3 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me -- thank you. Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
4 65 ter 02559L.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that that is not what
8 the witness said. It would be a good thing before showing this document
9 to check whether the witness uttered those words; namely, that almost the
10 entire population of Kalesija was Serb.
11 MR. TIEGER: Well --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first read what is in the transcript. Perhaps
13 you do that literally, and then if the first question to the witness is
14 whether the -- whether there's any dispute about the way in which his
15 words were reflected. And if the witness disputes it, then we'll be able
16 to verify it on the basis of the audio.
17 Mr. Tieger, I leave it in your hands.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm referring to page 60,
19 beginning at line --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6.
21 MR. TIEGER: "As for the municipality of Kalesija practically the
22 entire population was Serb."
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you go on further: "Women and children, they
24 went to Serbia."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, the first question is is that what
1 you said. If there's any dispute about it, we'll listen to the audio
2 and then we'll find out what you exactly said and have it all
4 Did you say --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not say that. Since in
6 Kalesija the majority population is Muslim, whereas this pertained to the
7 Serb municipality of Osmace or rather the Serb municipality of Kalesija,
8 and specifically the place that the gentleman, the Prosecutor, was asking
9 about. That's Osmace, Seher, what you said.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the last
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your last sentence.
13 Witness, could you repeat the last sentence which was not caught
14 by the interpreters.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the Prosecutor has been asking
16 about, that is the Serb municipality of Kalesija; specifically Osmace, a
17 location called Seher, with a minority Muslim population. And Kalesija
18 is a majority --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Again, we didn't hear the
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think what the witness explained to us that he
22 limited the Serb majority to a certain area of the municipality, but this
23 is to be verified if that is not what the witness may have said.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, and that should be checked.
25 Q. In any event, Witness, let's look at how that part of Kalesija
1 became almost entirely Muslim-free, as you indicated. So first we're
2 looking at 65 ter 02559L. If we can blow it up slightly so that we can
3 see the names, focusing on the municipality in the middle.
4 Okay. There we see Seher and other indicated in green as a
5 Muslim village. And we also see, for example, above it, Memici, correct?
6 So we see Osmace in blue, indicating it's Serb. Then we see Mahala and
7 we see Memici above that, right? The latter two indicated as Muslim
9 Now, those municipalities were "liberated"; right?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Are you referring to municipalities or --
11 MR. TIEGER: Those villages were, in that part of the Kalesija
12 municipality, were quote/unquote, liberated.
13 Q. Correct?
14 A. I don't know which specific villages you mean.
15 Q. Well, let's turn to 65 ter 32498. We'll return to the map in a
16 moment. General, I presume you'll recognise this as a report on the
17 occasion of marking the day of the establishment of the Drina Corps
18 prepared by you --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- on the 30th of October, 1993?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And if we could turn to page 3 of the English, and I believe
23 page 3 of the Serbian as well. There is emphasis placed on the
24 liberation of Kalesija. Indeed, the need to mention the liberation of
25 Kalesija. And as we read further, we see a specific mention of the
1 liberation of the village of Memici and the placing of the said village
2 under our control.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication? I have not found
4 it yet.
5 MR. TIEGER: It's -- if you see the middle -- yeah.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I see it. I see it. That's approximately in the
7 middle of the page immediately after the Italics.
8 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
9 Q. So, the reason that the Muslim village of Seher ended up in the
10 Serbian municipality of Osmace, that is, the newly formed municipality of
11 Osmace, is because it was liberated in the manner we heard described
12 earlier, and the same fate befell Memici which was praised as liberation
13 in your retrospective; correct?
14 A. Mr. President, in order to respond to this question, I would have
15 to make an introduction. Otherwise, it is pointless to go on. This
16 happened at the time when the army, in fact, did not even exist.
17 Secondly, for your information, the TO, the Patriotic League of
18 the municipality of Kalesija was established before anything was done in
19 terms of organising the Army of Republika Srpska. The TO, the
20 Patriotic League first attacked the Serb villages in the depth of the
21 municipality Jeginov Lug -- please, Jeginov Lug, Sarska Basta [phoen],
22 military columns --
23 Q. General, let's -- I gave you an opportunity to provide what you
24 called an explanation about something else. But let's establish the
25 facts first.
1 First, on the 26th of May you gave an order to move out the
2 Muslim -- the people from the Muslim village of -- from those Muslim
3 villages, give the order to the Osmace forces, and that resulted in the
4 rounding up of the villagers of Seher on the 27th of May; correct?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
8 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, actually, I think the -- excuse me, General, I
9 apologise, but the interpreters couldn't hear you. I heard you say --
10 answer in the affirmative, but if you could just repeat it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps be the microphone adjusted again.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness's microphone
13 is off and other microphones are on.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Again, General, if you could repeat your affirmative answer. You
16 said the answer is yes?
17 A. My answer was yes. But you didn't allow me to explain.
18 Q. And I said I would as soon as I was permitted to establish the
20 Memici was also a Muslim village in that part of the Kalesija
21 municipality; correct?
22 A. No. Half of the village was Serb and the other half was Muslim.
23 Q. The village of Memici --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let's go back to 65 ter 02559L. We see visual representations of
1 the demographics of those particular villages, green for municipalities
2 which were exclusively or predominantly Muslim; blue for -- villages,
3 rather, which are exclusively or predominantly Muslim. Blue, the
4 corresponding colour for villages that are exclusively or predominantly
5 Serb. Memici, as we see --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, we don't see anything. It's not on the
7 screen yet.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apparently there are some computer problems
10 which slow down what appears on our screens. There are two ways to
11 resolve it. Either we ask the Prosecution to produce it another way on
12 the screen, or the second is to take the break a bit earlier and try to
13 fix it over the next 20 minutes.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I'm just checking quickly to see if
16 we have a hard copy in colour that we can put on the ELMO. If not, we
17 probably will have to take the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. TIEGER: I'm told the alternative is for Ms. Stewart to put
20 it up in Sanction.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That was what I had on my mind, as a matter of fact,
22 Mr. Tieger. Not your hard copy on the ELMO. But let's see whether we
23 can have it on the ELMO -- whether we can have it on our screens through
24 Sanction. There we are.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
1 Q. Again, we see Seher in green consistent with the evidence that I
2 read out to you before. Osmace in blue, Mahala in green, and Memici in
3 green. So according to the census of 1991, Memici was a predominantly
4 Muslim village; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the logic to some extent escapes me. I
7 mean, the witness was telling us about half-half. Now, I only see
8 predominantly one ethnicity or predominantly another, and the half
9 halves, I don't whether you consider a 51 per cent majority predominantly
10 or not, but otherwise there's no room for villages which are half-half or
11 52-48. So therefore could it be checked, perhaps. And parties, I take
12 it, could agree on these villages, what percentage is given in the
13 census. Because to further explore with the witness whether he is right
14 or wrong on the half-half depends on what we find in the census.
15 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Mr. President, we can do that. And I
16 agree that, first of all, "predominantly" in the sense I was using it
17 meant on either side of 50-50. I agree with you there was no room for a
18 50-50 in -- in the context of the bright line green-blue, but my point
19 was basically what happened to that village in the context of the orders
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I let you continue there. But "predominantly"
22 for me is something heavier than by majority. That's -- but that's
23 perhaps my understanding of English language, right or wrong, but let's
24 move on.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Next fact, Witness. You said that in that portion of the
2 Kalesija municipality that is clarifying or attempting to clarify your
3 early remark, that part was essentially all Serb, and I'm suggesting to
4 you that that part of the Kalesija municipality became predominantly all
5 Serb after the military operations resulting from the orders given, for
6 example, on the 26th of May, 1992; correct? That's what happened to
7 those villages we see here.
8 A. Well, if you say that it's that way, then I assume that you think
9 that it is that way. However, do go back to the period from the 8th,
10 7th of May, when there were combat operations, when Kalesija, I mean, was
11 placed under the control of the Territorial Defence, the Serb Territorial
12 Defence, and then the 23rd, the Muslims put it under their control.
13 So this village, Memici, that you are mentioning on the basis of
14 my order, in fact, there were no inhabitants there. This was a combat
15 position. So in that period of time, that is to say, we are fighting --
16 we are, in fact, fighting the enemy. So there were no inhabitants there
17 at all.
18 As for Seher, Seher is Serb and Muslim. So these are villages.
19 Seher. Half Serb, half Muslim. People lived together. However, the
20 very moment there was danger, that somebody would commit a crime, we
21 decided on this. And I have to tell you that I'm proud of what I did.
22 Q. So that's your answer, General. You gave an order to move out
23 Muslims who weren't there in order to protect them from revenge even
24 though they weren't there. That's the answer?
25 A. We're not understanding each other at all.
1 Q. You said you gave --
2 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Tieger puts to you is the following. If
3 you say there was no one living there at the time because it was a combat
4 zone, why give an order that women and children should be moved out if
5 they were not there. That's the question Mr. Tieger puts to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke specifically about the
7 village of Memici because what was pointed out was the village of Memici
8 and there was nothing. I mean, as for Seher, where it is mentioned that
9 people moved out. Yes, the population was half Serb, half Muslim, and
10 that was the objective, that these people be allowed to go to Muslim
11 territory in order to save them because there was combat going on. And
12 the Serb population from these villages had also left. They went to
13 Serbia. I mean, I really don't know. Are we understanding each other?
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll find out. We'll take a break anyhow. So that
15 gives us 20 minutes to further prepare for a full understanding.
16 We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back at 1.30.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn until then.
19 --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness, Mr. Tieger, had
22 you any chance to look at Memici and percentages?
23 MR. TIEGER: I'll be addressing that first thing.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 MR. TIEGER: And by way and as long as we're waiting, could I
1 take the opportunity to tender 65 ter 32498. That was the retrospective
2 of October 1993 that the witness indicated was his.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7352.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. TIEGER: And also if I may, the Kalesija map which is
7 65 ter 02559L.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map receives number P7353.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. And then can we call up 65 ter 2559M,
12 like master.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. General, a few minutes ago you indicated at page 66, line 12,
16 that Memici was half and half; that is, half Muslim half Serb. And at
17 page 69, line 4, that Seher was half Muslim-half Serb, or half Serb-half
18 Muslim. And in that connection, I wanted to look at the 1991 census. If
19 we look at this first page of 65 ter 2559M, we see Kalesija. And turning
20 to the third page, we see a list of villages in Kalesija. And we see
21 Memici listed --
22 MR. TIEGER: Third page, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Next page in English.
24 MR. TIEGER: Did that page not upload?
25 THE REGISTRAR: There is only two pages in e-court for the
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go back to the previous page. Is there
4 anything ...
5 MR. TIEGER: The Sanction option, I think, will ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we enlarge on the bottom of that page?
8 JUDGE ORIE: None of the villages are mentioned here yet and we
9 expect them on the next page, which is the -- it's not the next page but
10 two pages forward.
11 MR. TIEGER: There with see Memici listed at line 16, and I'm
12 pointing that out because we'll need that line reference to find Memici
13 in the 1991 census, and we see Seher listed at line 28. And if we turn
14 to the next page in that case, then we see the continuation of the data
15 for those villages now for the 1991 census, and we see at line 16 the
16 demographics of Memici: 1.318 Muslim, 167 Serb. And at line 28 the
17 demographics for Seher: 915 Muslim, 267 Serb.
18 Q. General, your information to this Court, your testimony to this
19 Court, that those villages were demographically half and half
20 Muslim/Serb, was simply wrong; correct?
21 A. Yes, I accept that. Perhaps I misspoke. I did say the places
22 were mixed. That's what I meant. Therefore, there were both Muslim and
23 Serb inhabitants.
24 MR. TIEGER: I tender 65 ter 2559M.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is that the extract which doesn't contain the
1 page we need?
2 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Mr. President. And I guess we -- well,
3 we will make sure that the two critical pages are added to that 65 ter
5 JUDGE ORIE: Excerpt of the 1991 census including Memici and
6 Seher, still to be uploaded, would receive what number, Madam Registrar?
7 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P7354, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there are no objections, so once uploaded
9 they will be admitted.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. And as long as we're on this topic, because you've mentioned both
13 the Serb municipality of Kalesija and the Serb municipality of Osmace,
14 let me clarify for the Court what that means.
15 MR. TIEGER: If we could call up 65 ter 32513.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But before we do that.
17 Witness, could I take you back to one of your previous answers.
18 I asked you whether any Serb, Muslim or women were -- children or women
19 were moved out, and you said in those Muslim villages there were no Serbs
20 living there. Now although it was not half-half, here apparently there
21 was a considerable number of Serb families living in those villages.
22 Could you tell us whether they were moved out as well? Or don't you
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that. Perhaps you didn't
25 understand that. The entire population was moved out, both Serbs and
1 Muslims, because it was an area where combat was under way.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a combat zone.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And then I asked you how many Serbs were moved out,
5 and you said there were no Serbs living there in those villages because
6 they were Muslim villages.
7 Now, again, my question now is, first of all, were, to your
8 knowledge and do you have any details about the number of Serb women and
9 children that were moved out? That's my first question. Do you have any
10 information about that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have anything specific
12 about these two villages, but the information --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. I was talking about these
15 Could you tell us how many Serb men were put in camps that were
16 taken from those villages, because apparently there were Serbs living
17 there as well.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs were not taken to camps.
19 They were taken by the Muslim [as interpreted] side to Tuzla. They were
20 not taken to camps here but they moved to Zvornik and to Serbia.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And you said they were taken by the Muslims? Let me
22 just check.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So they were allowed to move on their own; whereas,
25 the Muslim men were put into camps.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And because they possibly were soldiers of the other
3 armed forces, is that your explanation?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But a number of the men who
5 were not able-bodied were released together with the women and children
6 to go to Gracanica and Kalesija.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were they exchanged or were they ... because
8 earlier you told us that you'd now say they were released together with
9 the women and children to go to Gracanica and Kalesija. But earlier you
10 said that these men were free to go, so -- wherever they wanted to go.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that group of women,
12 children, and those who were unfit for service were allowed to go freely.
13 Whereas, the able-bodied men were placed in camps, and then later they
14 crossed to Muslim territory through exchanges.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if there were no prisoners of war.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, practically they were not
17 prisoners of war. They were temporarily placed there. In the beginning,
18 it was a collection centre, a place to accommodate all of those people
19 who were there. And then later, practically they were all released.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But there's no records of that, if I
21 understood you well.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are records. Later, we will
23 speak about that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the Defence would be able to give us the
25 relevant records of that, of course it would certainly assist in the
1 evaluation of the totality of the evidence.
2 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we have a report. We have a
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I invited the Defence to do whatever they
6 think would assist us.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Yeah, I had indicate just a moment ago that we would look at your
10 comments about the Serb municipality of Kalesija and the municipality of
12 MR. TIEGER: In context, if we could turn to 65 ter 32513 and
13 turn -- okay.
14 Q. First of all, there we see it and we see Kalesija and Osmace
15 bolded. Let's turn to the second page, please.
16 The top portion of that map we see Kalesija, the municipality of
17 Kalesija, as it existed before the war in its configuration. And beneath
18 it, we see Kalesija after the war. And what we can see from that map is
19 that a portion of Kalesija, the portion that, as it happened, included
20 Seher, which was the subject of your May 26th order, as it was
21 implemented on the 27th of May, and as we can see from the configuration
22 Memici now in the Serbian municipality of Osmace.
23 So, General, when you referred to Osmace before -- well, first of
24 all, when you refer to the Serbian municipality of Kalesija, you meant
25 that portion of the Kalesija municipality that pre-existed the war that
1 had been designated for Serbian control by the Serbian authorities, and
2 when you refer to Osmace, you mean that portion of the former Kalesija
3 municipality that had been taken under control by the Serbian forces and
4 that eventually became part of Republika Srpska; correct?
5 A. Well, please, believe me, it's very difficult for me to answer
6 today because you're not allowing me to explain anything. So I can see
7 that you're the one who is speaking more here. Kalesija had 30- or
8 40.000 inhabitants. Out of that, only 7.500 were Serbs. In the depth of
9 Kalesija, there are a number of Serbian villages --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch all the village
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, the blockade of those
13 villages, specifically Jegino [phoen] Brdo --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you again. If we need further
15 explanations, whether it was logical to do what was done or not, that's
16 not the question. The question is whether you referred in your testimony
17 to certain parts of that municipality.
18 Now again, if the parties would like to know whether there was
19 any logic behind it, they will ask you. If they don't ask you,
20 apparently it's not that relevant for the case which is before us.
21 So please leave it to the parties what they'd like to know from
22 you, and could you please now answer the question that was put to you by
23 Mr. Tieger. If need be, Mr. Tieger will repeat it.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. General, you see the graphic representation in front of you.
1 That is what happened as a result of the operations that we've been
2 looking at; correct?
3 A. I see Kalesija on the map from 1991. And I see Kalesija after
4 the combat actions in 1992. So I don't know what you're asking me about.
5 If that's it, then that's it.
6 MR. TIEGER: I tender 65 ter 32513.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7355.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Now, General, you became aware at the time --
12 A. Excuse me, Mr. President, I apologise. I hope that the -- this
13 map is not in the context of my order. This map is from the 8th of May,
14 1992. The 8th, 9th, and 10th is what the map looked like. It looked
15 like this on those dates.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Whether there's any relationship between these maps
17 and your orders will be considered in the evaluation of the totality of
18 the evidence before us.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I apologise. The Prosecutor
21 cannot --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No. In re-examination, the Defence can ask you any
23 additional questions which sheds a better light on your evidence. Don't
24 worry about how we are dealing with all that. Just focus on answering
25 the questions.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. General, you became aware at the time that as a result of the
4 capture of many Muslims, facilities in which those people were being held
5 were filling up; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And indeed you visited the Vlasenica secondary school where the
8 witness whose testimony I referred you to earlier, the witness from
9 Seher, was taken, and he stated that -- he described what it was like
10 there in the secondary school at -- in P2528; fearful that anybody could
11 be taken at any time from the gym and anything could happen, describing
12 that most of the people had been beaten and were covered in blood and
13 were unwashed, that people were weak from hunger, that they were
14 exhausted and afraid, and he testified that you inspected the gym while
15 he was there.
16 And that's the truth, right, you did visit the gym while Muslims
17 were retained there in late May 1992; right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever visit the gym while Muslims were retained there,
21 A. Not while the Muslims were there, but I was there when the Serbs
22 from Tuzla were exchanged to go to Brcko and it took place in that gym.
23 Q. Well, let's turn to 65 ter 325 --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just an explanation.
25 What -- against who were the Serbs being exchanged on that day
1 when you were there? Who were they exchanged with? Because the Muslims
2 were not there anymore, according to what you tell us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th of June, the Serbs from
4 the Serb villages of Kalesija municipality, Jeginov Lug, Dumica, and
5 Zolje Jajici were arrested, they were taken to the central prison in
6 Tuzla. Then --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I stop you, please. You said when you visited
8 the school, the Muslims were not there. You went there when the Serbs
9 were being exchanged. I'm asking you on that day who were they being
10 exchanged with, because the memories were not there.
11 Just answer my question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the Muslims from Seher and
13 Osmace. They were being exchanged for those Muslims. I personally was
14 present when the Serbs came from those areas, and I saw that gym for the
15 first time. The school gym. That was the first time that I saw it. I
16 saw arriving mostly elderly men, and we gave Muslims in exchange for
17 these elderly men who had come.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But at that point in time, where were the Muslims?
19 Were they still in the gym to be exchanged for the Serbs coming in?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Where were they then?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were in Susica.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the very last
24 couple of words.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please repeat the last couple of
1 words. You said they were in Susica. And what did you then say?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Susica. It was a collection
3 centre, reception centre at the time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you never visited the gym or the school
5 before that day. And on that day, there were no Muslims in that gym
6 anymore. Is that ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say this. When I came,
8 there were no more Muslims at the school. So that was my first and last
9 visit there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: 65 ter 32505, please; e-court page 46.
13 Q. Now, General Andric, this is in the context of questioning about
14 the statement of another witness in the Karadzic case, that questioning
15 was done in private session, who also spoke about your visit to the high
16 school gym. And at e-court page 46, that is transcript 41687 of the
17 Karadzic case, we see the following exchange:
18 "Q. You visited the Vlasenica secondary school gym, the high
19 school gym, yes, when it was holding Muslims?
20 "A. Yes."
21 That was the testimony you gave under oath in the Karadzic case;
22 correct, General?
23 A. Yes, I went there only when Serbs were there. I don't recall
24 ever being there when the Muslims were there. I did meet that group of
25 Muslims at the school in Paprace together with Pahomije and the president
1 of the municipality where I asked the bishop to make sure that the people
2 are taken to their destination safely.
3 MR. TIEGER: Let's go into private session for a moment, if we
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 34797-34799 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. General, as a result of your awareness that the detention of
8 Muslims was straining available facilities, you ordered that a camp in
9 Vlasenica be set up and that camp was the Susica camp; correct?
10 A. That's not correct.
11 Q. Did you order the establishment of the Susica camp?
12 A. Please, could I be shown that order so then I can explain.
13 MR. TIEGER: P190, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first answer the question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to explain to
16 you that the order for organisation and the order on the establishment of
17 a camp, that's not one and the same thing. When you say that you're
18 organising something, then you're organising something that had already
19 been established. And the Prosecutor should read the heading. What does
20 it say? It says organisation only later. The heading says --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear what it
23 JUDGE ORIE: Even this Chamber usually does not say what the
24 Prosecutor should say, and we also do not dictate what the Defence should
25 ask. So refrain from telling the Prosecutor what to do. Did you order
1 the establishment of Susica camp, yes or no?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. First of all, paragraph 7 of your statement, General, states the
6 following in its first sentence --
7 A. May I get that? May I take a look myself. There's nothing --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, what Mr. Tieger is now doing, he's
9 quoting from your own statement which you've given to the Karadzic
10 Defence and which you said you had reviewed recently. He is quoting from
12 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
13 And would you refrain from again and again interfering in -- when
14 questions are put to you.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: It states that document there listed as P3240,
17 that's the Karadzic number, of 31 May 1992 is my -- excuse me, that is --
18 is my order by which I ordered that a camp be established in Vlasenica,
19 stressing that international rules must be applied and forbidding any
20 ill-treatment or liquidation of the prisoners. I just quoted from that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's, I think, meanwhile admitted into evidence.
22 It was 65 ter P190, and it now has become ...
23 MR. TIEGER: Previously admitted as P190 in this case.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's --
25 MR. TIEGER: And referred to by its Karadzic P number in the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. It's an exhibit number. Yes. That's, of
3 course, not 65 ter but exhibit.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. So that's the first thing, General. And you state that in the
6 statement which you recently reviewed and attested to in Court this
8 And if we turn to P190, that's your order of the 31st of May,
9 1992, providing in item 1 -- well, in -- it is:
10 Pursuant to the decision of the Birac Serb Autonomous Region
11 government which regulates the moving out of the Muslim population from
12 the territory of the Birac SAR. I hereby order, one, set up a camp in
13 Vlasenica and secure it in compliance with international regulations.
14 So my question to you earlier, General, about whether or not as a
15 result of your awareness of the fact that detention facilities were being
16 strained with increasing numbers of captured Muslims resulted in your
17 setting up or establishment of the Susica camp was based on, in part,
18 what you said in your statement, and what you said in your
19 31st May order, 1992.
20 Do you now disavow having set up the Susica camp by virtue of
21 your order of the 31st of May, 1992?
22 A. I do not deny that I organised the camp, but I deny that I
23 established the camp. Establishing the camp is one thing and organising
24 the camp is another matter. So these are two different notions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But, Witness, Mr. Tieger is asking you about
1 the establishment. You are putting in the word "organisation." He says
2 you ordered the establishment. According to this order here, you're
3 saying: Set up a camp in Vlasenica and secure it in compliance with
4 international regulations. And he's saying you ordered this
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Don't give answers for the witness. But if there's
9 any -- I can imagine that if there's any translation issue, draw our
10 attention to the fact that there's a translation issue. And if you say
11 for that reason --
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm not going
13 to suggest anything because we've already dealt with this extensively. I
14 would just like to ask the translation interpretation service to focus on
15 item 1 of this order and to have this translated or interpreted verbatim.
16 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Mr. President. I'd like to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please, please --
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Let me cover one -- I'm going to cover both aspects of that,
20 General, tomorrow as it appears. But before I do, I want to look quickly
21 item 4, which provides that the prime minister of the Birac SAR is to
22 establish contact urgently regarding negotiations on the exchange of
24 So -- and in fact, those exchanges took place and it was the
25 Birac SAO government, according to you, which did that, right, or which
1 undertook that?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come a bit closer to the microphone. Yes,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government and later the army
7 dealt with that too.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I understand, Mr. President. The last thing
10 I'd mention is that the two missing pages were added to 65 ter 02559M, so
11 I believe it can now be admitted fully as P7354.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The number had been assigned already. One second,
13 please. Before I make any mistakes --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P7354.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P7354 is admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in fairness to the witness, could then item 1
17 of this order be translated again. Be interpreted -- read and
19 MR. TIEGER: I'm happy --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: In response to the objection by ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: If the translation would be verified before we
23 restart tomorrow, that would fully meet the wish of Judge Moloto.
24 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
25 tomorrow morning at 9.30.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes, but before you leave the
3 courtroom, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak or
4 communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about your testimony;
5 that is, testimony given today or testimony still to be given tomorrow.
6 If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I -- I think the Chamber does
10 understand the use of the words in paragraph 1. It will all be verified.
11 May I remind you that in your summary, I don't know what language
12 you used in B/C/S, but if you think it was not setting up, then the
13 interpretation perhaps should be verified as well because in English it
14 was role of the witness in setting up and not in organising.
15 So please check for yourself what you said at the time, but if it
16 adds to the confusion, I would have certainly --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- tried to -- to avoid that.
19 We adjourn for the day. We resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 29th
20 of April, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
23 April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.