Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34903

 1                           Thursday, 30 April 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I think that the Defence wished to make submissions as a

12     preliminary matter.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  We

14     were required to state our position on a document within 48 hours.  This

15     is document that was used in the testimony of Witness Grujo Boric,

16     65 ter 32447.  I would just like to use the opportunity to inform the

17     Trial Chamber that the Defence has no objection to this document being

18     tendered.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then decide in due course on the admission.

20             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness, which would be, if

21     I understand well, Mr. Ratko Nikolic?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That's

23     correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

25     courtroom.

Page 34904

 1             Ms. Melikian, you'll cross-examine the witness?

 2             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 7     make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by

 8     the usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  RATKO NIKOLIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Nikolic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, you'll first be examined by

16     Mr. Stojanovic.  You find Mr. Stojanovic standing to your left.

17     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             You may proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I would like to ask you, for the purposes of the transcript, to

24     slowly state your first and last name.

25        A.   Ratko Nikolic.

Page 34905

 1        Q.   Will you please tell the Trial Chamber where and when you were

 2     born.

 3        A.   I was born in the village of Opravdici on the 12th of July, 1945.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us which schools you completed.

 5        A.   I completed elementary school.  That's eight years of school.

 6        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, did you serve your military term of duty?  And if

 7     you did, when and where?

 8        A.   I served my military term of duty from 1964 to 1967, 11 months in

 9     Gnjilane and 10 months in Skopje.

10        Q.   And where were you employed just before the war broke out in the

11     spring of 1992?

12        A.   Yes.  I was working in the 21st of May in Rakovica, Belgrade.

13     And it was the basic unit in Zvornik of that company.

14        Q.   Will you tell the Trial Chamber in which republic Mali Zvornik

15     is.

16        A.   Mali Zvornik is in the Republic of Serbia.

17        Q.   And what kind of work did you do?

18        A.   I worked as a security personnel.  I was working at the

19     reception.

20        Q.   And did you have any weapons as part of your duties as a

21     reception guard?

22        A.   We did have weapons which -- a weapon which we handed over at the

23     end and beginning of each shift.

24        Q.   When the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the

25     village where you lived, were you personally drafted?

Page 34906

 1        A.   No, I wasn't.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber why you were not

 3     mobilised by the army in that period, 1991?

 4        A.   I was not mobilised because each worker had to be registered at

 5     the work organisation and in the municipality where he worked.  That's

 6     where he was registered as a permanent resident.  So you had to be

 7     registered with the SUP and with your company.

 8        Q.   And will you tell the Trial Chamber where you were at the time --

 9     where you were registered at the time?

10        A.   I was registered in Mali Zvornik.

11        Q.   And at that initial period of the war, were you living in your

12     village or did you live in Mali Zvornik?

13        A.   Until 1992, I commuted to work.  I think that was until August

14     when the barricades started to be set up on the road to Zvornik.  After

15     that, I couldn't commute anymore.  I had a brother, so for another month

16     or so I worked.  After that the company, the director dismissed us to go

17     home, and we received a minimal salary from the company because war was

18     already underway and a lot of workers were dismissed and they were

19     staying at home.  I couldn't come to work because of the problems in

20     commuting.

21        Q.   And when did you start to permanently live in your village of

22     Opravdici?

23        A.   I think I went back to my village for good in the month of

24     August.

25        Q.   For the purposes of the transcript, could you please tell us

Page 34907

 1     August of which year?

 2        A.   August 1993.  That was the year when they burned us.  Actually,

 3     it was August 1992.  I'm sorry.

 4        Q.   For the purposes of the transcript, could you please tell us

 5     again:  August of which year?

 6        A.   1992.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the ethnic composition of your village,

 8     Opravdici?

 9        A.   Our village of Opravdici was a Serbian village.

10        Q.   And was Opravdici a part of a larger Serbian village?

11        A.   Yes, it was a part of a larger Serbian village.  That was the

12     population.  It had perhaps a hundred or 150 houses.

13        Q.   What was the neighbouring village where the centre of that area

14     is?

15        A.   Kravica.

16        Q.   And what was the ethnic composition of the village of Kravica?

17        A.   Serbs.

18        Q.   And did you observe or did you at any time become active in the

19     protection and the defence of your village?

20        A.   Yes.  We were on guard duty for a little bit because my village

21     is close to the centre.  It's about a kilometre away from Kravica.  There

22     were people that we didn't know who were coming in, walking around there,

23     so anything could have happened because just the women were there and

24     elderly men.

25        Q.   At that time did you have any weapons which you used for these

Page 34908

 1     duties?

 2        A.   Well, there was an elderly man who had a hunting rifle, so he

 3     carried that around for a little bit, but I didn't have any weapons.

 4        Q.   And at that time, from August 1992 until January 1993, did any

 5     fighting go on near your village and near Kravica?

 6        A.   Yes, because Muslim forces were attacking the area around

 7     Srebrenica, so all the neighbouring villages were burned and anybody that

 8     they encountered, they killed.

 9        Q.   And where were the able-bodied men from your village at that

10     time?  Where were they holding the front line?

11        A.   They were in the neighbouring villages.  But since Kravica is a

12     wooded mountain village, there were ambushes carried out and the village

13     guards were killed at the entrance to the village.

14        Q.   Could you please tell us, Mr. Nikolic, where you were on

15     Christmas day of the 7th of January, 1993?

16        A.   I was at home in the village of Opravdici.  The day before, I was

17     making plum brandy, because that was our holiday, and so I made this

18     Pecenica so that we could celebrate that holiday the following day.

19     Kravica was attacked from all sides.  It was attacked from four sides.

20     All the villages were attacked.

21        Q.   I'm going to go step by step, so please try to answer the

22     questions that I am putting to you.

23             Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, in your best recollection,

24     when did this attack on your village of Kravica begin on the 7th of

25     January?

Page 34909

 1        A.   My wife got up early in the morning at about 5.30 to bake this

 2     special bread that we call Cesnica.  I stayed in the room to sleep a

 3     little bit longer.  I didn't know what was going on.  I didn't hear

 4     anything.  And then she entered the room and said, "oh my God, Ratko, get

 5     up.  We are being attacked from all sides."  I said, "What's happening,

 6     Marija?"  She said, "Well, go out and see what's happening."

 7             So I went out, and the village of Sikovici, a small village on

 8     the hill, is a place where you have a good view of all the surrounding

 9     area.  You could see fires everywhere, and there was all kinds of

10     shouting, "Slaughter them," and so on.

11        Q.   So what did you do at that point in time?

12        A.   I didn't do anything.  I had two houses.  You couldn't go out.

13     Bullets were flying everywhere.  My wife -- the entrance to the ground

14     floor, it was between the two houses.  She ran into the house.  I was

15     immediately wounded in my left leg, right here.  And so I ran into the

16     house, she got some cloths, and she managed to bandage me a little bit.

17     And you could already hear things.  And I hold her, "Marija, run where

18     you can."  And --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I was afraid that I would get

21     killed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you to slow down so that the

23     interpreters can catch all your words.

24             And could I ask you to make a short pause, Mr. Stojanovic,

25     between answer and the next question.

Page 34910

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Did your wife, Marija, manage to leave the house?

 3        A.   Yes, she did.  She fled through a wood in the direction of the

 4     river Drina, towards Serbia, because there were more refugees who were

 5     running from Kravica, so she joined them.

 6        Q.   And what happened with you?

 7        A.   I stayed in my village.  I didn't go.  I was thinking this is all

 8     I have.  I don't have anybody left.  So what if I get killed.  There were

 9     five houses in my hamlet.  There were no longer any men there.  So I

10     stayed in that village for five days longer.

11        Q.   I will stop you there for a moment.  Where were you hiding during

12     those five days?  Where did you stay?

13        A.   I was in a little wood, close to my house.  There is a large

14     hollow tree there in the woods, and next to that tree there is no path or

15     road or anything.  So I crawled inside the tree from the lower side, and

16     that's where I spent the whole day there.

17        Q.   What did you eat?  How did you live?

18        A.   Well, I would go out a little bit when it got dark, and I would

19     observe, look around, so that nobody would catch me.  I knew where my

20     potatoes were, so I took a few handfuls of potatoes, and I would put that

21     in the embers of the fire and this is what I used to eat for those five

22     days.

23        Q.   During those five days, did you see enemy soldiers close to your

24     homes?

25        A.   I did, yes.  First of all, our villages, my own village and the

Page 34911

 1     village nearby, were first looted.  I saw in the evening when I came that

 2     there were tractors and trucks shipping out the food.  I had a lot of

 3     grain and food which I wasn't using.  They took away the livestock,

 4     everything that they could take.  And then after that, everything was

 5     torched.  Seven buildings that belonged to me all burned down.

 6        Q.   At one point did they see you?

 7        A.   On the fifth day, I got out of that tree where I was and I came

 8     home to see.  I couldn't see or hear anybody.  And I wasn't paying

 9     attention, and then they shouted, "Halt."  And I stopped and it was all

10     over.  I was thinking, well, I'm going to die now.  When I looked, there

11     was seven of them with seven rifles and they were standing there.

12        Q.   And how did those seven people look, the ones that captured you?

13        A.   They had white camouflage clothes.  They had weapons with them.

14     They didn't saying [as interpreted] anything.  They weren't calling each

15     other by their names.  They were addressing each other as Mico, Drago.

16     They were not saying Omer, Haso, but Mico, Drago, things like that.

17     Perhaps to avoid being recognised.

18        Q.   After they captured you, where did you go?

19        A.   We went in the direction of Kravica.  My village was 1 kilometre

20     away from Kravica.

21             We reached Kravica, they beat me, they started slapping me,

22     calling me Chetnik.  Then we went in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

23     There is a village there that I know.  I would commute with Muslims, with

24     Bosniaks, to Zvornik every day when I used to work.  Those people knew

25     me.  I commuted for 27 years to work, there and back, and we got on well

Page 34912

 1     together.

 2             So they started to walk towards me, then stopped, and they said,

 3     "Ratko, what are you doing here?"  I couldn't tell them anything.  The

 4     van came and it stopped in this crowd of people, women and children and

 5     men.  A man with a moustache, trimmed moustache, and an automatic rifle

 6     got out of the van.  Later, I found out that that was Zulfo Tursunovic.

 7        Q.   I'm just going to stop you there for a little bit.

 8             Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where this place was

 9     where you reached the road and where the van came?

10        A.   The place is called Lolici.  It's a village from the Osmace area

11     in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  It's about 3 kilometres away from

12     Kravica.

13        Q.   And after the van stopped and this man came out, whom you learned

14     later was called Zulfo Tursunovic, then what happened to you personally?

15        A.   He got me to go into the van.  There were about 15 of their

16     soldiers there.  Naser Oric was there as well.

17        Q.   Were there any other prisoners in the van except you -- other

18     than you?

19        A.   No, there was nobody else.

20        Q.   And where did they take you?

21        A.   They took me up there about 2 kilometres away from Kravica to a

22     village called Jezercica [phoen] because on the left-hand side there was

23     Bratunac.  We didn't go to Bratunac.  We turned left, then the van

24     stopped, they got out of the van, and then we were going towards Bjeceva,

25     towards Srebrenica, over the hill.  We were going on foot.  And then when

Page 34913

 1     we came down to the Potocari river, there was another van waiting there.

 2     They got into the van; me too.  They then took me to Srebrenica in this

 3     van.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where they brought you

 5     first?  What building did they bring you in Srebrenica?

 6        A.   To the old police station building in Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   And how long did you stay there?

 8        A.   We stayed there until the attack on Skelani.

 9        Q.   Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber when this attack on

10     Skelani occurred?

11        A.   I think the attack on Skelani took place on the 16th of January.

12     I remember it well because they brought five captured people from Skelani

13     to the Srebrenica prison.

14        Q.   For those of us who don't know too many details about the attack

15     on Skelani, could you please tell us what year that was?  The 16th of

16     January of what year?

17        A.   It was on the 16th of January, 1993.

18        Q.   Who attacked Skelani?

19        A.   According to what those people who were brought in said - Ilija,

20     he was the only one I knew - it was Naser Oric.  I don't know who his

21     commanders were and all of that.  I don't know that.

22        Q.   And during that time that you were at the police station in

23     Srebrenica, were you interrogated, questioned, was a statement taken from

24     you?

25        A.   Yes.  The following day I was taken out by a man.  I don't know

Page 34914

 1     who that was and he asked me what do I have, about my possessions;

 2     livestock, food, things like that.  Nothing other than that.  On the

 3     table, there was some salt, a knife, and a pistol in front of him.  First

 4     he asked me what the knife was for.  I just shrugged and said it's used

 5     for a man to feed himself and other things.  And he said, "No.  When you

 6     Serbs make crosses" -- I can't remember exactly what he said.  It was a

 7     long time ago.

 8        Q.   All right.  Very well.  I will ask you something else.  Were you

 9     asked by anyone during those few days that you spent at the police

10     station if you were a soldier or a civilian?

11        A.   No, they didn't ask me anything.  I was wearing civilian clothes.

12     Nobody had summoned me for anything.  I didn't have any military

13     clothing.  I had a suit, something similar to what I'm wearing now.  When

14     I came to the police station the following day, they took my clothes from

15     me, they brought me some boots that were ripped, and they brought me a

16     shirt that didn't even have any sleeves.  And they took my new suit from

17     me.

18        Q.   And the people who were guarding you in that facility, where they

19     soldiers or policemen?

20        A.   They were just wearing civilian clothes, but probably they were

21     policemen because they were guarding us prisoners.

22        Q.   And from that police station, after the 16th of January 1993,

23     where were you taken?

24        A.   Since there were four of us, it was a small room, 2 X 2, then

25     they brought five more people, then they transferred us between the court

Page 34915

 1     and the municipal building to a place where they used to keep coal for

 2     the boilers for the municipal building, and that's where they locked us

 3     up.

 4        Q.   Please tell the Trial Chamber how many prisoners were there.

 5        A.   There were four of us who were there before at the police

 6     station, and then these five, so there were nine of us.

 7        Q.   Could you please try to remember, if you can, and could you

 8     please tell the Court who you remember, either by name or surname or

 9     nickname, who was prisoner together with you?

10        A.   I can remember.  When I was brought to Srebrenica, I found

11     Popovic Kostadin from Kravica, he was captured before I was and he was

12     brought to Srebrenica.  Mico Milovanovic from Sase.  Mico and Popovic

13     were killed there in Srebrenica when we were there before my very own

14     eyes.  I know when that happened.  Then Drago, an elderly man, he was

15     over 80 years old.  And there was this one man there.  He was taken to

16     hospital.  He was wounded in both legs, but I don't remember his name.

17     They took him away.  They took him to hospital.  Since he could not get

18     up and walk, he walked on his knees.

19        Q.   Do you know what happened to this man by the name of Drago, the

20     elderly man?

21        A.   Drago died, because of the beatings, the very next day.

22        Q.   Can you tell the Court, do you remember out of the people who

23     were brought in after the attack of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

24     against the village of Skelani, do you remember --

25        A.   I remember Ilija who was exchanged together with me.  Then I know

Page 34916

 1     Stanoje, some man who was paralyzed.  He couldn't run away.  His left

 2     leg, right leg.  He was exchanged.  There is this other guy, I can't

 3     remember his name, who was with Kostadin Popovic, who died.  I mean, died

 4     because of the beating.  And two old men were exchanged on the 14th.  I

 5     mean, February -- no, by the 27th of February.  Women, children, then

 6     this old Stanoje.

 7        Q.   What were the conditions like as you stayed there in the room

 8     that you described?

 9        A.   Two, three small windows, 50 X 50, bars, no glass, concrete

10     floor.  One blanket.  We could sit on the floor and cover our heads.

11     Nothing.

12        Q.   At one moment you mentioned women and children.  What was that

13     about?

14        A.   Well, when we got up there, we found 14 women and 4 children next

15     door, to the left.  I remember this little boy, Branko.  He was about 8.

16     I saw him twice now.  He's grown up now.  They would let him go out a

17     bit.  They would let him come to our room a bit.  I mean, women and

18     children.  You know.

19        Q.   What happened with that group of women and children?

20        A.   They were exchanged in January, February.  The women, children,

21     and the man, Stanoje.  He couldn't walk.  He had trouble with his arm and

22     leg.

23        Q.   While you were in this furnace room, were you questioned at any

24     point in time?

25        A.   No, no way.  No.

Page 34917

 1        Q.   Did anybody check whether you were a soldier or civilian?

 2        A.   No.  No one.  Nothing.

 3        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see who was in charge and who was

 4     in command of these people who were guarding you?

 5        A.   Well, I did.  In the evening when they would come, they would

 6     take me out because we had nothing to eat.  They really tortured us with

 7     this food.  We would get three or four mouthfuls of oats and three or

 8     four spoonfuls of something that wasn't even cooked, that wasn't salty,

 9     that wasn't greasy, nothing.  And then in the evening during their shift,

10     this one man would say, "Come on, Nikolic, let's go out and talk."  And

11     he said, "They'll beat you less here than there," two or three hours, and

12     then they were lighting fires, and it was very cold in Srebrenica then;

13     10 or 15 degrees below zero.  And we had no clothes.  And then he talked

14     to me.  He was from Suceska, he was really a good man.  I have to say

15     that.  He'd bring me this tiny little piece of cornbread, see, like, two

16     fingers, and then he'd take me to toilet and say, "Nikolic, come on.  Eat

17     this.  I cannot bring this for all of you because I even haven't got

18     enough myself."

19        Q.   Were you beaten during that time?

20        A.   We were beaten every day.  Whoever would come in would beat us.

21     There were these two men who beat us regularly.  They were with these big

22     glasses.  You know, the ones that welders wear, and they had beards, and

23     they were beating us.  And I know when I came I was all scarred.  See?

24     See this here and here and here on the left side?

25             And when they wanted to exchange the women the next day, the 7th,

Page 34918

 1     in the evening, I don't know, at some point in time and during the night,

 2     the three of them walked in.  The guards let them in, and the guards were

 3     the ones who were letting them in to beat us.  And they opened the door,

 4     and they had this thing made of paper, and then they started beating us

 5     one by one.  And then I was so hurt here - see, I have all this medical

 6     documentation from doctors.  All my ribs were broken here.  They made us

 7     take off the little bit of clothing that we were wearing, and as they

 8     beat everyone, we would pass out and then they would pile us up.  And

 9     then they would bring cold water, and then they'd pour this cold water on

10     us, and that's how it was.

11             When I came to, I don't even know what time it was, I was

12     shivering, and I found this blanket.  And I just put it on my head.  And

13     then I leaned against the wall.  When it dawned, I looked around, and I

14     saw that Kostadin Popovic had died and then this other man from Skelani.

15     The two of them were there, dead.

16             About 10.00 or something like that, I don't know exactly, because

17     Zulfo Tursunovic was commander of the camp up there.  I found out later

18     he was the main guy there.  He walked around, he had this automatic

19     rifle, like this, over his chest, and then he had this moustache, and

20     then he said, "What happened to you?"  Now, what could we say?  Could we

21     say, "We were beaten by this one, that one," we don't even know their

22     names, and then they would beat us when he'd leave.

23             And then two other men came afterwards, and then they took out to

24     two dead men.

25        Q.   I'm going to stop you here and ask you were you able to ask for

Page 34919

 1     medical assistance because of the injuries that you had sustained?

 2        A.   We asked but to no avail.  I mean, my leg, it was swollen after

 3     the beating.  Nobody wanted to look at us.

 4        Q.   Tell me, at one point in time -- or, rather, at any point in time

 5     while you were there, did you receive information that you would be

 6     exchanged?

 7        A.   No, never.

 8        Q.   How long did you stay in that facility?

 9        A.   We were detained in that facility until the exchange, end of

10     February, when I was exchanged.

11        Q.   Would you tell the Court how many attempts were made for this

12     exchange when you were exchanged.

13        A.   Two attempts and then I was exchanged.

14        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how these unsuccessful

15     attempts evolved.

16        A.   Ilija was beaten up one evening, the one who was exchanged with

17     me.  And then he was taken to hospital.  I guess the man couldn't talk,

18     he couldn't speak, nothing.  And they didn't really treat him there.

19     They didn't have tablets, medicine, nothing.  Ilija was there in

20     hospital.  And then this man without an arm walked in.  Later on, I found

21     out that this one was nicknamed Mis.  And Jakov, from Kalabaca, who Naser

22     brought, they were there for seven months.  Naser brought them to

23     Srebrenica to our prison, four men and one woman, Andja, and he said,

24     "Let's see."  He looked at us.  And then these men were lying there, and,

25     "Let's see who can get up."  And then I managed to get up a bit.  And he

Page 34920

 1     said, "Nikolic, you'll be exchanged."

 2        Q.   Where were you otherwise in that room?  Where did you usually

 3     stay in that room?  Where were you lying?

 4        A.   All around.  Along the wall.  We would lie against the wall.  Two

 5     or three of us would use one blanket because there weren't many blankets,

 6     and we'd just try to cover our heads a bit.  Nothing.  Concrete floor.

 7     Nothing.

 8        Q.   Did they ask you to get up when the guards would walk in?

 9        A.   They had ordered me, the guards -- I mean, they were civilians,

10     but these guards who were guarding us, they ordered me to sit by the

11     door.  Right there.  As soon as they let somebody in, that I would have

12     to sit because they said I should say that my name is Ratko and last name

13     is Mladic.  Whoever would walk in, I would have to get up and greet them

14     and say I'm Ratko Mladic.  But I couldn't.  I was so beaten up.  I was

15     hungry.  My insides were all tied up.  And then if I would not get up,

16     then I would be slapped.

17        Q.   I'd just like to go back to one of your answers.  You said that

18     at one point in time a woman named Andja was brought in and four men and

19     that they were brought from the village of Kalabaca.  What village, this

20     settlement Kalabaca is part of what settlement?

21        A.   Sekovici.  Kalabaca, Sekovici.

22        Q.   Where had they been until then as prisoners?

23        A.   In Cerska.

24        Q.   Thank you.  When they told you about this exchange, this attempt

25     to carry out the exchange, was it made?

Page 34921

 1        A.   Twice?  No.  The first time, I mean, well, it didn't succeed.  Up

 2     there, Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar, they call it something.  Towards Suceska

 3     there was lots of snow.  There was this little TAM truck.  Its tires were

 4     no good.  We were supposed to walk for a kilometre, and they took us out

 5     and they said we cannot go any further.  Ilija and I simply couldn't

 6     walk.  They dragged us a bit through this snow, and we stood up there,

 7     standing about two or three hours in that cold weather, and the man

 8     called Mis, without an arm, returned.  And he said, "Back to Srebrenica.

 9     You're going back to prison."  I guess the talks failed or something.  I

10     don't know why they took us back.  And then after about seven days, he

11     came again.  Mico was returned -- no, Ilija was returned to hospital

12     again.  And they took me to prison.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Stojanovic

14     please turn off his microphone.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came to prison --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please turn off your

17     microphone.  Yes.

18             Please continue, Witness.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, thank you.

20             Then this second time he came, he said, "Nikolic, let's go for an

21     exchange."  And I was glad.  We set out again in that same TAM truck, and

22     again it couldn't get through.  Again, they pushed us somehow.  They

23     dragged us, pushed us, and we walked this 1 kilometre, and then we went

24     on.  And then their soldiers, this Muslim Bosniak army, they were on

25     duty.  And then further down, there was this - what - Serb army, towards

Page 34922

 1     Skelani.  And then it was two or three hours that we waited there.

 2     Nothing doing.  We just stood there in that snow.  And then from Skelani,

 3     two men appeared, and I guess they raised their hands, whatever, I don't

 4     know what the signs were.  Then nothing.  They talked and then I know

 5     full well, this captain who came, who brought their people who were to be

 6     exchanged for us, in a truck, and I remember --

 7        Q.   I will have to stop you just for a moment and ask you to tell us,

 8     because this last part of your statement is not recorded.  Who is this

 9     captain, and who are these persons who brought in their people for the

10     exchange?

11        A.   The captain was from our army, the Serb army, from Skelani.  And

12     the captain was a driver -- no, no, the other one was a driver.  The

13     other one was a driver.  The one who brought these people in for a

14     exchange.  As far as I know.

15        Q.   At that moment, did the exchange take place between the two

16     warring parties?

17        A.   Then they did exchange us.  But they brought oxen and sleds.  As

18     far as I can remember, two were alive and one was dead.  The dead one was

19     in a coffin.  But one did not want to go with this other one.  I mean,

20     the cart couldn't go up, and then they were supposed to go down so that

21     these people could go.  And then the driver and the captain took the oxen

22     and they went down with the oxen, and they loaded all three of them - I

23     mean, the dead one and the two live ones, they were on the sled and they

24     were brought to the separation line.  And then they took the oxen, they

25     gave us to them, and then they took us and they brought us to the car.

Page 34923

 1        Q.   Tell the Court to the best of your recollection, what day was

 2     that?  What date?

 3        A.   I cannot remember, but I know it was towards the end of February

 4     because quite a bit of time had gone by already.  I don't know what day

 5     that was.

 6        Q.   And who was exchanged with you on that occasion?

 7        A.   Ilija from Skelani was exchanged with me.

 8        Q.   And tell us, were you able to walk when this was going on in view

 9     of everything that you described, everything that you had been through?

10        A.   Well, it was difficult.  I weighed 75 kilos before and I dropped

11     down to 40.  I had problems with my intestines.  We were starving, we

12     were thirsty.  Any time we asked to drink some water, they wouldn't bring

13     any to us for three days.  Then they would bring us a little plastic

14     pail.  There was one guy, bless him, I will never forget him, he would

15     say, "Nikolic, don't drink.  That's urine.  You will get a temperature."

16     And you could see that the liquid in the pail was yellow, that it wasn't

17     transparent, white.

18        Q.   And after the exchange, can you please tell us where you were

19     brought to?  Where did the exchange take place, close to the line of

20     separation?

21        A.   The place is called Kragljivoda, that is where the boundary was

22     there.  There is an intersection that leads to Suceska and Kragljivoda.

23     That's just above Skelani.

24             When we were exchanged, I found out about these two live people

25     and two dead people.  We were taken back twice -- actually, what happened

Page 34924

 1     was that a cousin of Naser's was killed in Skelani during the attack, so

 2     they couldn't find him.  So that's why we were taken back twice to the

 3     prison.

 4        Q.   And did your family know that there would be an exchange?

 5        A.   No, they didn't know.  They didn't even know that I was in

 6     Srebrenica.  When I arrived finally after being exchanged -- before that,

 7     they didn't know anything.  They had lost all contact with me.

 8        Q.   I just have a couple of questions.  I'm almost finished.  So I

 9     kindly ask for a little bit more patience from you.

10             Can you tell us, were you sent for any medical treatment after

11     that?

12        A.   I went to recover in Zvornik.  I went to Vlado Prodanovic.  He

13     carried out surgery for my hernia.  I had to have a new hip.  I couldn't

14     walk.  And had to have an artificial limb also.  To this day, I have

15     difficulty walking.  One of my legs is 5 centimetres shorter now.  When

16     they were dragging us to the canal, my leg was injured.  The hip joint

17     was damaged in the process.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at 1D05386.

19             Your Honours, by your leave, I would just like to take a moment

20     to consult with Mr. Mladic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I would ask you to look now in front of you at the

25     screen, at the monitor, and see if you can look.  There is a document

Page 34925

 1     there.  It's a discharge sheet from the Zvornik medical centre.  Do you

 2     see that?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   And it states there -- I'm going to try to go quickly through it.

 5        A.   This is when I was exchanged, when I went for treatment in

 6     Zvornik.

 7        Q.   And there it says, if you can see:  Treated between the 1st of

 8     March, 1993 and the 14th of March, 1993.  And there is a diagnosis there.

 9             Is this the medical documentation that you were given once you

10     left the hospital?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And are these papers that you gave to me when we were preparing

13     for you to testify here in this trial?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

17     tender document 1D05386.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document receives number D1039.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at another

22     document, please.  And that's 1D05385.

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, on the left side of the monitor, we can see that

24     it's written in the language that you understand, a document.  It's a

25     discharge sheet with your case history.

Page 34926

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   It's issued by the health care centre in Loznica.  The date is

 3     from 2007.  And it's physical therapy following the surgery for a hip

 4     replacement.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Stojanovic please repeat his question

 6     and the answer of the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please repeat your

 8     question.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I just want to ask you one question regarding these medical

11     documents.  Your hip replacement surgery, was that because -- a

12     consequence and needed because of the injuries you sustained while you

13     were in prison?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

17     tender this document.  And it's 65 ter number 1D05385.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number D1040.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Your Honours, I see the time.  I believe I will be finished with

23     this witness in about 10 or 15 minutes, so perhaps this would be a good

24     moment to take our break, and then I will have a few more questions for

25     the witness regarding events after 1993.

Page 34927

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.

 2             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in

 3     20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break, Mr. Stojanovic, have you

 6     inquired with the Prosecution whether there is any challenge to the story

 7     of this witness, which is about brutal treatment?  I don't hesitate to

 8     use that word, that's what he describes, because in general I never

 9     found -- well, never.  I experienced during the whole of this trial that

10     individual cases of brutal treatment by Muslims to individual Serbs is

11     not really in dispute that these things happened, may even have

12     frequently happened.

13             Have you inquired with the Prosecution whether there was any

14     challenge or any dispute about this story as one perhaps of many stories?

15     Did you?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  In a number

17     of conversations we had, we did discuss the matter of this and similar

18     other witnesses.  The Prosecution stated their position about one of

19     them.  So for one of those witnesses, there will be no questions.

20             As for this witness, the matter of dispute was whether he was a

21     soldier or a civilian, if we got the information correctly; and also,

22     it's a disputed matter if there were any reasons for the people of

23     Kravica to take revenge.  And that's why the Prosecution asked to be able

24     to put specific questions to the witness on these matters.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then why didn't you focus on what was in dispute?

Page 34928

 1     We have listened, and we didn't want to stop this witness because we see

 2     his condition.  We didn't want to stop him, but we were flooded with all

 3     kind of details, totally unnecessary, to give us a true impression of

 4     brutal treatment.  You could have done that in not more than 10, at the

 5     most 15 minutes, especially where the physical condition of the witness,

 6     apparently, is supported by documentation.

 7             So why then didn't you focus on what was in dispute?  Apparently

 8     not that he's in a bad physical condition and that -- I don't know

 9     whether that's in dispute, but whether this was caused by ill-treatment,

10     brutal treatment by the Muslim side.

11             Could I ask Ms. Melikian whether there was any dispute about

12     that?

13             MS. MELIKIAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  You're correct.  In

14     general, there is no dispute about that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And also as far as the physical ill-treatment and

16     brutal treatment?

17             MS. MELIKIAN:  That is also not in dispute.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have not even raised the issue of relevance.

19     But you could have done in 15 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             We take the break, and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may.  Before

24     we bring the witness back, if I may just say one thing.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 34929

 1             Mr. Usher, could you, before you escort the witness into the

 2     courtroom, seek my permission.  You can get him ready.

 3             You need how much time, Mr. Stojanovic?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one minute, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you take care that the witness will be standby

 6     in one minute.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.  I

 9     just made an error on page 25, lines 11 and 12, of the transcript.  It

10     states that I said that I had talked to my colleagues from the

11     Prosecution about what was in dispute in the statement of this witness,

12     and I would like to say that I did not discuss with any colleagues from

13     the Prosecution this matter.

14             But this Defence believes that we should be allowed through the

15     viva voce testimony of this witness to have the witness answer these

16     questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you are to focus on matters which

18     are in dispute.  You have the right to ask questions to the witness.  I

19     never said you are not.

20             Second, you shouldn't tell us that you have discussed the matter

21     with the Prosecution if you had not.  I leave it to that.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

23     Thank you.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, we'll continue.  Mr. Stojanovic has a

Page 34930

 1     few more questions for you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we don't have too many questions now.  Just briefly,

 5     could you please tell the Trial Chamber if you are suffering from the

 6     consequences of the injuries that you sustained?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness told us already, Mr. Stojanovic.  And we

 9     can see it.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Are you table to tell the Trial Chamber how many people from your

13     village were killed in the attack of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

14     on the 7th of January, 1993?

15        A.   I think that it was about 48 people who were killed.  There were

16     also those who were burnt to death in the houses and their bodies have

17     still not been found to this day.

18        Q.   And the population of your village and Kravica and the environs,

19     did they feel the need for retribution because of these casualties caused

20     by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21        A.   Yes, things were done all the time because Naser Oric and his

22     army destroyed all the villages in the area.  There was 17 villages and

23     all of them were burned.  Everything was looted.  Nothing was left there.

24     Once they looted the things and took them, then they burned all the

25     houses, all the buildings.

Page 34931

 1        Q.   And what was the reason for this need and expressed desire for

 2     revenge?  What did they tell you, those people?  Was it a result of the

 3     things they experienced on the 7th of January?

 4        A.   Well, let me tell you:  When you see people with their heads cut

 5     off, their legs cut off, after all the things that I heard, there were

 6     three or four persons with their heads cut off that were taken to

 7     Srebrenica, all kinds of things happened there.

 8        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, when did you manage to come back to your home?

 9        A.   I managed to return to my house -- well, I have a brother in

10     Mali Zvornik, so I was spending time there.  Everything was burned and

11     destroyed back there, so I didn't have anywhere to go back right until

12     Dayton.  After Dayton, I received some assistance and I built something,

13     64 square metres.  So I think that that was it.  My grandmother is living

14     there now.

15        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, thank you very much for all your answers, for your

16     willingness to come and testify.  This Defence has no further questions

17     for you.  Thank you.

18        A.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Ms. Melikian, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

21             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, you will now be cross-examined by

23     Ms. Melikian, you'll find her to your right.  Ms. Melikian is counsel for

24     the Prosecution.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Melikian:

Page 34932

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in your testimony you'd just said at line --

 4     transcript page 28, that it was approximately 48 people who were killed

 5     in your village on the 7th of January, 1993.

 6        A.   Yes.  In the attack on Kravica.

 7        Q.   And does that number include soldiers as well?

 8        A.   There were no soldiers.  They were all civilians.  Mostly these

 9     were civilians that were escaping.  All of them were civilians, as far as

10     I know.

11             MS. MELIKIAN:  Could we please turn to 65 ter 4415.

12        Q.   And just as it comes up, as we look at the first page of this

13     document, we see that it's -- well, just as a bit of background this was

14     a report that was seized from the Bratunac Brigade headquarters by the

15     Office of the Prosecutor in February 1998.  And we see on the first page

16     that it says:  "The Situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina Before the War."

17     This is a detailed and chronological report of the events leading up to

18     the war and the formation of the Bratunac Brigade.

19             MS. MELIKIAN:  And if we can please turn to page 11 in the

20     English and page 10 in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Just to see this section header in the middle of the page that

22     says:  "Description, Characteristics, and Results of Combat and Other

23     Combat Tasks the Brigade has Executed During its Existence."  We'll just

24     be taking a look at some of the text in this section.

25             MS. MELIKIAN:  So if we could please turn to page 15 in the

Page 34933

 1     English and 14 in the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   And if we just look about two-thirds of the way down in the

 3     English and at the top of the page in the B/C/S, we see that it says:

 4             "The Muslims knew about the situation among the Serbs, which is

 5     why they hurried with the new attacks to take Kravica as soon as

 6     possible.  They planned to execute their main and decisive attack on

 7     Christmas, 7 January 1993."

 8             And further down, we see:

 9             "In the early morning of 7 January 1993 on Christmas at dawn, the

10     attack on Kravica was launched from almost all directions."

11             MS. MELIKIAN:  If we could please then turn to page 17 in the

12     English --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't found it yet.  Could you tell us from

14     where you were reading?

15             MS. MELIKIAN:  One second.  I'm sorry, there it is.  In the

16     bottom third, it starts, in the English --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now found the 7th of January, yes.

18             MS. MELIKIAN:  And if we could then please turn to page 17 in the

19     English and page 15 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   And looking at the top of the page in the English and about the

21     middle of the page in the B/C/S, we see that it's written:

22             "The grim outcome for the people of Kravica on Christmas 1993 was

23     35 killed and 36 wounded soldiers and 11 civilians."

24             It's the Prosecution's position that this report accurately

25     represents the number of casualties that day and that, in fact, 35

Page 34934

 1     soldiers were killed and 11 civilians were killed.  Do you agree that the

 2     figures reported here are accurate, Mr. Nikolic?

 3        A.   I know that there is this monument in Kravica now, and I read

 4     about this, you know, those 48 that I know about, and it also says so on

 5     and the monument.  These 48 are civilians.

 6             I cannot tell you anything about soldiers.  I was not there.  I

 7     cannot say anything.  As for these 48, I know exactly.  There is this

 8     monument there now, and it says "civilian victims, 48 of them."  It's

 9     written there.  As for the soldiers, I really don't know.  I really

10     cannot tell you anything about that because I wasn't there.  I was

11     already up there then, because this was after two months.  For two months

12     you couldn't go into Kravica because Naser held Kravica.  Birds were

13     eating away.  Things happened to people.  People's heads were cut off.

14     And this relative of mine had his head cut off, and if it wasn't for his

15     dog who was there watching him, the birds would have eaten him up.

16             I didn't dare go there and -- I mean, I didn't know how many.  I

17     mean, I see it on the monument now, the civilian victims.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask one question, Witness.

19             Is the monument the only source of your information that the

20     people who died were 48 and that they were civilians?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't need to explain.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 34935

 1             MS. MELIKIAN:

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  I just have two additional questions for

 3     you.  Do you recall testifying previously at the Tribunal in December

 4     2004 in the case of the Prosecutor versus Mr. Naser Oric?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were you called by the Prosecution in that case?

 7        A.   I think so.  Yes.  I mean, they came from The Hague and then they

 8     prepared me there.  I think it was them.  As far as I can remember, there

 9     was nobody else.  There was nobody else who contacted me.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. MELIKIAN:  I have no further questions for the witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Melikian.

13             Any further questions in re-examination?

14             Mr. Nikolic, the Chamber has no further questions for you either,

15     which means that this concludes your testimony in this court.  I would

16     like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and for

17     having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and

18     that were put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return home again.

19     You may now follow the usher.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             MS. MELIKIAN:  Mr. President, may Ms. Hasan and I be excused?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused, Ms. Melikian.

24             You didn't tender the last document.  You are aware of that?

25             MS. MELIKIAN:  That's correct.  I did not tender it.

Page 34936

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are trying to find out whether the

 4     next witness, which, if I understand well, is Mr. Vujic --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- has yet arrived or not because he was expected at

 7     11.30 but he may have arrived early.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we asked the service to bring him earlier since

 9     we learned that there wouldn't be many questions from the Prosecution for

10     the previous witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We wait and see.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, you'll cross-examine the witness?

14             MR. ZEC:  Correct, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Vujic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

20     make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

21     May I invite you now to make that solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  DRASKO VUJIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

Page 34937

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vujic.  Please be seated.

 2             Mr. Vujic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 3     Mr. Lukic to your left.  In a minute he will stand.  Mr. Lukic is counsel

 4     for Mr. Mladic.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             I would kindly ask the usher to provide Mr. Vujic with his

 8     statement in paper.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a clean copy, Mr. Lukic?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Any need to inspect, Mr. Zec?

12             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It can be given to the witness.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Vujic.

16        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

17        Q.   For the record, could you please just slowly state your name and

18     surname.

19        A.   Drasko Vujic.

20        Q.   Mr. Vujic, at one point in time did you give a statement to the

21     members of the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D0502516.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.  0502516?

25             MR. LUKIC:  I made a mistake.  1D02516.  I apologise.

Page 34938

 1             And we need the last page.  Since this is a statement from the

 2     Karadzic case, there is no first page signature.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, on the last page of your statement

 4     that is on the screen before you right now, can you recognise the

 5     signature?

 6        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 7        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review your statement?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What is recorded in your statement, is it recorded properly in

10     relation to what you had said?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Vujic, what is recorded in this statement, is that truthful?

13        A.   Yes.  Everything I said is true.

14        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

15     answer me in the same way?  Would your answers be the same like those

16     provided in the statement?

17        A.   Yes.  I would basically give the same answers.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender Mr. Vujic's statement

19     into the evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement receives

22     number D1041.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would read the statement summary of

25     Mr. Vujic, and I would have questions for him as well.

Page 34939

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Drasko Vujic was mobilised in late 1991 and sent as a member of

 4     the 5th Battalion of the 343 JNA Brigade to Slavonia, where he stayed for

 5     45 days.  After that, he went back to Prijedor.  And when the crisis in

 6     Prijedor broke out, he started forming a unit from the Urije area, or

 7     Prijedor 2 area, local community.

 8             This unit numbered about 900 to 1200 men, many of whom were

 9     non-Serbs who joined the unit voluntarily.

10             In the morning of 30th of May, 1992, Muslim armed units attacked

11     Mr. Vujic's soldiers from a park located between the two underpasses and

12     from a nearby firm.  One of his soldiers was killed in the attack, while

13     the others reacted to the surprise and put up resistance.  During the

14     clash, the Muslims fired at an ambulance car that was on its way to town

15     and seriously wounded the driver.  After one hour of fighting, the Muslim

16     units were pushed back and withdrew towards the river Sana.

17             During the fighting, one enemy soldier was captured.  He wore a

18     camouflage uniform with a green headband, a Cherokee hair-style, and

19     Islamic markings.  After revealing that Prijedor was attacked by several

20     armed groups from different directions, the prisoner was escorted to the

21     garrison and handed over to the security organs.

22             After this episode, the battalion did not take part in combat

23     operations until September 1992, when most of the battalion was sent to

24     the Gradacac front line while a small part received the task of mopping

25     out Mount Kurevo, where Muslim units were based.  One of the soldiers who

Page 34940

 1     took part in the fighting at Kurevo was wounded, while one other died.

 2             During the summer of 1992, the battalion's patrols were present

 3     in the vicinity of the mosque in Puharska, when the mosque was destroyed

 4     in an explosion.  Mr. Vujic personally helped the people who had been

 5     injured, among whom there was a Muslim man who was put in Mr. Vujic's car

 6     and taken to the hospital, where he received medical treatment.  The

 7     soldiers who were on patrol were severely shocked and some suffered

 8     hearing damage.  Mr. Vujic did everything he could to reassure the

 9     residents of Puharska and to prevent any further attempts at disturbing

10     them.

11             In 1992, various Serbian paramilitary units roamed around

12     Prijedor municipality, causing great problems to both the Muslim and the

13     Serbian population.  Mr. Vujic personally arrested a member of this Suva

14     Rebra unit, one of the paramilitary formations active in the Prijedor

15     area.  The paramilitary soldier was disarmed, tied up, and later escorted

16     to the prison in Gradiska.

17             In 1995, Mr. Vujic became a member of the SDS and then he became

18     vice-president of the Municipal Board and an assemblyman in the municipal

19     assembly.

20             That was statement summary, Your Honours, and I would probably

21     ask -- is it break time or we have still --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's not break time yet.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Then I will continue with my questions with

24     your leave, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  We have another 20 minutes until the

Page 34941

 1     break.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3             I would start with one document which we proposed as

 4     non-associated exhibit, and it is in our system under the number 1D04952.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] We have before us a document, Mr. Vujic, that

 6     has no translation.  So this is what I'm going to ask you.  Could you

 7     please read out the name of the document?

 8        A.   "List of Persons of Non-Serb Ethnicity Who Were Members of the

 9     3rd Motorised Battalion."

10        Q.   Could you also please read out for us the next line that denotes

11     the columns.  So what is written there, the next line?

12        A.   The first column is "number," the second is "surname, father's

13     name, and name" of each and every member of the unit, the third is "year

14     of birth," and the fourth is the period that was spent in the unit from

15     the beginning until the end of the participation of each and every

16     individual.

17        Q.   Mr. Vujic, who wrote up this document?

18        A.   I drew up this document from the database that I still have about

19     the participation of soldiers who were members of the

20     3rd Motorised Battalion.

21        Q.   It is easy for us to understand this column that says number, and

22     also the one that says last name, father's name, and name, and the year

23     of birth.  The last column, though, that says "period of engagement," how

24     did you make these entries, Mr. Vujic?  How did you enter data there?

25        A.   In our military records, each and every member, once he reported

Page 34942

 1     to the unit, has the date of his arrival recorded, and the second part of

 2     the column refers to the date when he left the unit.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask one question at this point in time,

 4     Mr. Lukic.

 5             Mr. Vujic, if you look at item 21, there is a name and he is

 6     listed as having been admitted into the army on the 6th of July, 1993 and

 7     he leaves from his duties on the same day.  What might be the background

 8     of that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, obviously what

10     happened was that the soldier was sent by the ministry to the

11     3rd Battalion.  Upon arriving in the unit, he brought a document that

12     freed him from participation in the unit.  On the basis of the document

13     that he had then, he was released on the same day and returned home.

14             The decision of the ministry was abided by, but in the meantime

15     he obtained a document that freed him from service.  And I, as commander,

16     freed him on that basis and let him go home.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, what are the reasons for the members

20     of your unit not to be engaged anymore?

21        A.   There are several reasons.  This document shows that there were

22     certain individuals who were engaged in the unit from the first until the

23     very last day.  You can see that some arrived on the very first day.  And

24     then after a year or two, or at some point in time before the end they

25     left the unit, and that was possible only if such a person would receive

Page 34943

 1     an assignment to go to a different unit because of the VS that he had,

 2     the military occupational speciality, or if somebody was ill or wounded.

 3     Unfortunately, some people were also killed.  And there were some other

 4     reasons why people left this unit before the end.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you whether the dates you are giving, is

 6     that purely on the basis of administrative documents, or did you also

 7     verify whether they were actually on duty during that period?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  On the basis of the official

 9     documents of the battalion, that's how I did this.  The battalion has a

10     book, VOB-8, and everything is clearly recorded there, and each and every

11     one of these dates has to match the dates that are in the VOB-8 that was

12     handed over to the ministry.  There must be no difference there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I know that there shouldn't be any difference, but

14     did you verify whether there was any difference?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I have a copy of the VOB

16     about the participation of all the participants, not from VOB-8 but from

17     my own records before I submitted the VOB, I copied the data into the

18     VOB.  So when we are talking about the status and the length of service

19     of each of these soldiers, not only them but all those who were in the

20     battalion - and I must say that 2.540 of them passed through the

21     battalion during the war - none of them had any remarks regarding the

22     length of service and participation in the unit, because it does

23     correspond to the official records in the VOB-8.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's still all on the basis of administrative

25     documents?

Page 34944

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the basic and only valid

 2     document, the VOB-8.  Everything else are records which I, as the

 3     commander, as well as subordinate officers of the companies and the

 4     platoons, kept.  But they all tally.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, did you know any of these people or

 8     all of these people personally, and do you have any personal knowledge

 9     that they were members of your unit?

10        A.   Yes.  I knew most of these people personally.  I didn't know a

11     small number of them by their first name and last name.  I have this very

12     good characteristic, that I can recall faces very easily.  So on the

13     basis of that, I definitely do remember them, although I might have

14     forgotten some of their names.  However, these are only those who spent a

15     very short time in the unit.  For example, the Workers Battalion, which

16     was added to my unit for brief periods of time, perhaps a period of 30 or

17     45 days or a maximum period of 60 days, that category of fighter perhaps

18     means that I didn't know some of them.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And we can see that the column ends with the year

20     1996.  And you see there are no records from 1997 or 1998.  Could you

21     please explain why the last entries are from 1996?

22        A.   The column shows dates up to 1996, which means that until 1996

23     the unit functioned officially.  In 1996, most of the fighters were

24     demobilised.  I can say as the commander that just a few of my associates

25     remained in order that we could finish up with the MTS and to complete

Page 34945

 1     all the documents that we were obliged to present to the garrison or the

 2     brigade command.  All the other personnel was demobilised.

 3        Q.   Where did these members of your battalion come from?  From which

 4     area?

 5        A.   These members mostly came from the replenishment area of this

 6     wartime battalion, which included the local communes of Urije, Puharska,

 7     Orlovaca, Orlovci, Garevci, and Cirkin Polje.  There were a few of those

 8     who came from other parts of the municipality and who joined this unit.

 9     Most of them were from the replenishment area of the local communes that

10     I just mentioned.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is all found in the statement.

12     Please proceed.  Paragraph 1.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Vujic, and where were the families of these men who were

15     members of your unit and who were not ethnic Serbs?

16        A.   In view of the fact that they were from this zone of

17     replenishment, their families were living in their own homes.  They

18     didn't go anywhere.  They were together with us.  They saw the unit off

19     together with us, they greeted it when it came back, and they went

20     through the good times and the bad times together with us.

21        Q.   And what was the attitude of the fighters from your unit of Serb

22     ethnicity towards those who were not of Serb ethnicity?

23        A.   In this unit, there were no differences at all between Serb

24     fighters and of those of other ethnic groups.  We went to the front

25     together, we returned together, we shared the same fate.  At the front,

Page 34946

 1     we slept in the same trenches, shared the same food, drank the same

 2     drink.  We helped each other.  And please believe me when I say that in

 3     times of crisis, these are events that can tell stories from wartime when

 4     co-fighters help each other in difficult situations.  There was no

 5     difference between members of different ethnic groups.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vujic, thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I would offer this document to be MFI'd since there

 8     is no translation.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we first see the last page of it?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's the third page.  Can we see

11     the third page, please.  Actually, the fourth page.  The last page.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So the list ended with number 133; correct?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D1042.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D1042 is admitted -- no, is marked for

18     identification, apologies, pending a translation.

19             But there are no objections, Mr. Zec?

20             MR. ZEC:  Correct.  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I think now it's a break time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's still even five minutes before break

24     time.  But if you find this is a suitable moment, then we will take the

25     break now.

Page 34947

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I would change the topics, so yes, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is a good reason.

 3             Mr. Vujic, we will take a break of 20 minutes.  You may follow

 4     the usher.  We would like to see you back after the break.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, please focus on the Court

10     rather than on the public gallery.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, before the witness is with us, I just

12     want to inform the Chamber that now we released the translation for D1042

13     MFI.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was the -- could you --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, that was the list.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The list.  Yes.  Then there are no objections,

17     Mr. Zec, you told us.

18             Therefore, Madam Registrar, the English translation may be added

19     to D1042 and D1042 is admitted into evidence.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you know what doc ID the English

22     translation has.  If not, the Defence will inform you.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, can we continue?

Page 34948

 1        A.   Yes, of course.

 2        Q.   Could you please look at paragraph 6 of your statement.  And

 3     that's on page 2.

 4             In that paragraph of your statement, you say that before the

 5     fighting and searches, you proposed and offered to the Muslim TO to hand

 6     over their weapons to avoid unwanted clashes.  Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   I want to ask you this:  Where did you go and did you go anywhere

 9     in order to negotiate about all these matters?

10        A.   I insisted a number of times on meetings between the leadership

11     of the Muslim side and us so that we could meet and discuss like men,

12     review the situation, and see what the best thing would be for us to do.

13     I did not hesitate to go to their territory, conditionally speaking, for

14     this purpose.  One of our meetings was held in their TO headquarters

15     even.  That's where we met and held our talks on the subject of how to

16     adapt to the conditions and avoid any civilian casualties or further

17     clashes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you -- with the same purpose of avoiding

19     clashes, did you approach Serbs also to hand over their weapons?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the Serbs formed a military

21     unit which had access, meaning that those that I talked to could also

22     come and be a member of that unit.  So those were the reasons why I went

23     to talk with those who didn't want to join the official unit.  I was

24     asking them to hand over their weapons so that we wouldn't have to wage

25     war with them.

Page 34949

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But this paragraph doesn't say you approached

 2     those who didn't want to hand over weapons.  It says you approached the

 3     Muslim TO.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  I contacted their

 5     superiors, their officers who were responsible for them, for what they

 6     were doing there, because they were the ones who were carrying out the

 7     orders of those that I was holding the talks with.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the TO was also a unit that is there to

 9     protect the community, and you're saying the Serbs were part of the army

10     and that's why you didn't go to them.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since we're talking about an

12     interethnic conflict in this case, the Territorial Defence would not have

13     any purpose at all, unless we are talking about an opposing side.  Then

14     each side would be important.  If it was a war where everyone together

15     would be carrying out the orders of the superior command, of the corps

16     command, the army units and so on, there would be no need for the

17     Territorial Defence to exist at all.  But that was not the case here.

18     Most of them had their wartime assignment but did not respond to their

19     wartime assignment.  They respected the call of the then-defence minister

20     for the conscripts not to respond to the call-up and not to hand over

21     their weapons.

22             Since these people existed and it was an obvious matter, that was

23     the reason why I tried to reach some sort of agreement so that we would

24     be able to avoid any conflicts.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  You may proceed.

Page 34950

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one follow-up question in this respect,

 2     also relating to paragraph 6.

 3             You said that some of them complied and handed over mostly

 4     civilian weapons.  What do I have to understand under "civilian weapons"?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People who knew that any kind of

 6     armed conflict would be fatal in that area were handing over

 7     everything --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you what you meant by "mostly civilian

 9     weapons."  What are civilian weapons?  Are these hunting rifles or is

10     that ...

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would include hunting rifles,

12     pistols, civilian pistols that they had, any kind of rifle that was not a

13     military-type rifle.  So anything that is not a military weapon is

14     considered a civilian weapon.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Were Serbs under an obligation to hand over their

16     hunting rifles and their non-military pistols as well?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not under an

18     obligation to do that, and I did not ask them to do that either.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then my question is why would those who were in

20     possession of hunting rifles, being Muslim or Croat, were deprived of the

21     use of those weapons, whereas the Serbs in the population could still

22     continue to hunt and to -- what was the reason for that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not ask them to hand over the

24     civilian weapons, only the military weapons and the type of weapons that

25     they had received through the party or some other way, through secret

Page 34951

 1     channels.  There was a large number of pump-action rifles around, and I

 2     received information from the intelligence organs about the precise

 3     number of how many of them came and at which time, and that was the

 4     reason why I pressured them to come to their senses and to hand over

 5     everything that they had, and that then definitely they would not be

 6     attacked or mistreated and then we would continue to live together

 7     normally.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in paragraph 6 of your statement you didn't say

 9     that you proposed that they would hand over their military weapons, but

10     you said they were required to hand over their weapons.  And in the

11     following sentence, you say some of them complied and handed over mostly

12     civilian weapons.  But if I understand you well, you are not interested

13     at all in these civilian weapons, only military weapons.  Is that well

14     understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is well understood.  I did not

16     insist on civilian weapons.  I thought that they would hand over military

17     weapons, weapons from the TO and reserve police sectors.  But --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand that.  But at the same time, you are

19     telling us that they handed over mostly civilian weapons.  So you

20     apparently did not tell them that you were not interested in those

21     weapons and you just accepted them.  Is that a proper understanding of

22     your testimony?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is proper understanding, that

24     we received everything that they brought in because they handed it in

25     voluntarily.  They thought that any kind of weapon they would have could

Page 34952

 1     constitute a real problem for them.  However, those who wished to have

 2     peace were handing over even their civilian weapons, whereas those who

 3     wanted to have a conflict did not hand over their military weapons

 4     although they had them.  So that's why --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, this Chamber received quite some evidence

 6     about Muslim and Croat, at least non-Serbian civilians, to hand over

 7     their weapons.  Most of that evidence required them to hand over all

 8     their weapons, and your statement does not say otherwise.  So do you have

 9     any explanation as to why in your area a different approach was taken?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally did not consider those

11     who had hunting weapons to constitute a danger.  I didn't think that any

12     threat was coming from those who had civilian pistols of their own.  I

13     thought that there was a danger from those organised units of the former

14     TO and the reserve police, and --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from your personal opinion how dangerous it

16     was or not, a clear factual question:  Did you offer that all weapons

17     should be handed over, or did you limit it to military weapons?

18     Irrespective of whether you thought it dangerous or not.  What was

19     required from them to hand over:  All weapons or just military weapons?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, we used the term

21     "weapons."  There were those who thought that that included everything.

22     But I tried to explain to you a moment ago, weapons that were a potential

23     danger were military weapons and those weapons that they had received

24     through their political party through secret channels.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I am stopping you there.  So you asked them

Page 34953

 1     to hand over their weapons without any restriction that it was only

 2     military weapons that had to be handed over.  Is that well understood?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is well understood.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One follow-up question from my side now.

 6             Can you give us a time-frame?  In paragraph 6, I don't see any

 7     date.  When did all that happen, the hand-over of weapons and the

 8     negotiations with the Muslim TO?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not in a position to have a

10     reminder here.  But if I have that here, I could have given you names and

11     dates that very instant, that very second.  What I can say to you now is

12     that all of this happened a month or a month and a half before the 30th

13     of May, before the attack on Prijedor.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is sufficient.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I do have another follow-up.

16             Given that you were interested in avoiding a clash and in order

17     to assure the Muslims that were called upon to hand over their weapons

18     that in fact peace was intended here, did you ask the Serbs to also hand

19     over - this time, and I'm asking you - military weapons, like you wanted

20     the Muslims to hand over military weapons?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I did not ask the Serbs to hand

24     over military weapons.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 34954

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] We'll go back to this sentence that is before

 4     us, Mr. Vujic.  This is what you say:

 5             "At my proposal, an offer was made to the Muslim TO,"

 6     Territorial Defence, "to hand over their weapons."

 7             The Muslim TO, did they have civilian weapons or military

 8     weapons?

 9        A.   The Muslim Territorial Defence had only military weapons.

10        Q.   So when the Territorial Defence is asked to hand over weapons, is

11     it indispensable to point out, in your view, to say military weapons or

12     is it sufficient to say weapons?

13        A.   I thought then and I think now that it was sufficient to ask the

14     Territorial Defence to hand over their weapons.

15        Q.   Thank you.  We saw a document a moment ago and now we have the

16     translation as well.  This document pertains to non-Serbs who took part

17     in regular units.  These non-Serbs - so Muslims, Ukrainians, Roma,

18     Croats - did they receive weapons, and, if so, what kind of weapons did

19     you give them?

20        A.   All of those who reported to the war unit were given weapons,

21     according to establishment, and also all the necessary equipment; that is

22     to say, that they had full military kit and weapons for being in a

23     wartime unit.

24        Q.   At the time, Mr. Vujic, that is to say a month or a month and a

25     half before the attack on Prijedor, was there an obligation of the

Page 34955

 1     Territorial Defence to hand over weapons they had in their possession to

 2     military units?  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   I don't know whether there was some kind of official document or

 4     order from the superior command, the higher command, to hand that in.

 5     However, I do know that the Territorial Defence could not function on the

 6     basis of that principle any longer.  It was just a divided formation

 7     along ethnic lines, and what was desirable was to disarm both and place

 8     them under a single command.  That was the objective.  So those who did

 9     not want to be placed under a command would have to hand over their

10     weapons.  Those who wanted to be under the command, then they would be

11     given weapons, and then together with us, they would carry out the same

12     tasks under the same conditions.

13        Q.   At a certain moment, did you involve the Serb TO in military

14     units; that is to say, did you treat them the same way, namely, that they

15     could not remain outside military units?

16        A.   Yes, of course.  The Serb Territorial Defence in a relatively

17     short period of time became assimilated and blended into the wartime

18     unit.  There was a small number of individuals there who didn't want to

19     join the war unit, but then they returned their weapons and were no

20     longer members of any units.  They were not registered in any records.

21     All of those who were mobilised in the war unit, who wanted to do that,

22     they would have weapons, and their weapons would even be changed

23     depending on the missions they would be given.  And all of that was done

24     on the basis of establishment.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 34956

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask a clarifying question.

 2             Were then the TO units subordinated to the wartime units?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information as to

 4     when this happened generally, but in my area at this time when I asked

 5     the Muslims either to join the unit or to hand over their weapons, the

 6     Serb TO was assimilated, say, 90 per cent of it was, they became part of

 7     the wartime unit and in fact no longer existed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And were therefore subordinated to the command

 9     of the wartime unit, if I understand you well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you understood that well.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  On what basis were you instructed that the TO units

12     should be subordinated or what made you decide that this subordination of

13     the TO units ceasing to exist separately, that this subordination should

14     follow?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I came from the front of Western

16     Slavonia on the basis of the order issued by the commander for me to

17     organise a unit so that all the available personnel and weapons would be

18     placed under control, that was the basic objective and the only

19     objective, irrespective of age, irrespective of those who can or cannot.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not listening to my question.  My question

21     was what made you decide whether it was -- no, perhaps let me just --

22     please finish your answer, and I may have a short follow-up question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So on orders from the brigade

24     commander, since the situation was chaotic, people at home - that is to

25     say, Serbs and Muslims and all other ethnicities - had contact with

Page 34957

 1     weapons of the Territorial Defence, or rather had all of those weapons at

 2     their homes, and all of that was supposed to be placed under some kind of

 3     control, rather serious control in an organised unit.  I worked on that,

 4     really, day and night.  And I had significant success.

 5             These negotiations took place because of those who did not want

 6     this.  These were attempts that were made to persuade them either to join

 7     us or to hand over their weapons.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That goes beyond the scope of my question.  So it

 9     was on the orders of the brigade command that you had to put TO and the

10     weaponry of the TO under your command, subordinated to your wartime unit?

11             No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  No loud speaking.

12             Please proceed -- please answer my question, Witness.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand that there was

14     a question.  I thought that you had just stated something.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I did that in view of something that happened.

16             My question was whether it was on the orders, therefore, of the

17     brigade command that you had to put the TO and the weaponry of the TO

18     under your command, subordinated to your wartime unit?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have a further clarifying question.

22             Now, do I understand your evidence well:  You had the intention

23     to avoid clashes and maintain peace, that's why you disarmed the Muslims

24     of their weapons.  And you did not disarm the Serbs.  On the contrary, as

25     you were disarming these Muslims, you were organising a war unit and

Page 34958

 1     dismantling the Serb Territorial Defence and subordinating it to the war

 2     unit.

 3             So do I understand that, in fact, while the Muslims were supposed

 4     to be disarmed, the Serbs were actually organising themselves into war

 5     units in pursuit of the peace you wanted to maintain?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You stated that we had dismantled

 7     the Territorial Defence.  It was a fact that it had already been

 8     dismantled.  It didn't have a command.  Some had responded, others had

 9     not, and that's how --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you.  I didn't say you dismantled the

11     thing.  I was quoting what you had told us.  You said the

12     Territorial Defence of the Serb was subordinated to the war unit,

13     therefore, because there was no need for it to further exist.  All I'm

14     saying is you're now taking the Serb Territorial Defence and the army of

15     the Serbs, making them into one war unit, and naturally preparing for war

16     because you're not even disarming them.  But in the meantime, you are

17     disarming the Muslims.  And I'm saying was that your way of pursuing the

18     peace that you wanted to maintain?

19             Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted peace.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think both Judge Moloto and myself would not know

23     for sure whether we got your answer.

24             Could you please again start your answer.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I started answering, and the Judge

Page 34959

 1     said, "Yes."

 2             But this is what I wanted to say:  I thought of peace in a

 3     completely different way as compared to the circumstances that were

 4     there.  It is impossible to say that we simply transferred the Serb TO to

 5     the wartime unit.  They had the same conditions put forth as those that

 6     were put forth to the Muslim unit:  Hand over your weapons and join, or

 7     join and then you don't have to hand over your weapons.  The Muslims did

 8     not and that is why we negotiated along those lines, that they should

 9     either hand over their weapons if they didn't want to join or they should

10     join and keep their weapons.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then I have another question.  Paragraph 6

12     does not invite the Muslims to join anything.  Now, if you asked the

13     Serbs to hand over their weapons and join the war unit, this was not

14     offered to the Muslims.  Why?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At all the meetings that we had,

16     the offer was made for them to join --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me.  I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fact that others joined --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you what you said in the meeting.

20     I'm asking you about paragraph 6.  You do not mention in your paragraph 6

21     that you asked the Muslims to join.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct.  My written statement

23     refers to those who did not wish to join.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It does not even say -- address itself to those

25     who didn't want to join.  It addresses itself to Muslims.

Page 34960

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And the fact that they exist

 2     indicates that they were armed, that they were there, and they were not

 3     members of the war units.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Done.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, were there any mobilisations in 1991

 7     and 1992; do you remember?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And these mobilisations, were only Serbs called up or were Serbs,

10     Croats, Muslims, and all others called up?

11        A.   Everyone was called up according to the wartime deployment,

12     regardless of their ethnicity.

13        Q.   And this mobilisation, the general call-up for everybody, did

14     that also encompass these Muslims that you were negotiating with?

15        A.   Yes, of course.

16        Q.   And do you know if they were aware of the mobilisation, the

17     call-up for them also to join a common armed force?

18        A.   Yes, they knew what joint mobilisation meant.  And like I said,

19     they decided to respect the summons for them not to join and respond to

20     the call-up but to do other assignments, which was to take weaponry, to

21     destroy bridges, and to take up the arms that they already had and to

22     carry out attacks against the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, wherever it was at

23     that time.

24        Q.   Mr. Vujic, could you please tell us now, and we're still on

25     paragraph 6 and this request for the surrender of weapons, are you able

Page 34961

 1     to remember now the names of Muslims who organised the hand-over of the

 2     weapons, and do you feel it's necessary to go into private session if you

 3     wanted to protect somebody's identity?

 4        A.   Well, I sincerely hope that my statement will not harm those

 5     people in any way in view of the fact that they weren't very decisive at

 6     that time as well and knew what they were doing.  I hope that this will

 7     not harm them or be a bother to them in any way -- excuse me.

 8             At this time, I can recall only a few names, like the name of

 9     Ismet Kapetanovic, Zekerija Kusuran, Esko Sehic.  Dzevad Dzafic took an

10     active part in everything, and he was the then-official commander of the

11     Territorial Defence in Puharska.  These were the -- this was the outcome

12     of our talks.

13             There were a few more, even ten people who took an active part in

14     it, but upon their own request the weapons that were gathered were handed

15     over to the garrison and they were present there.  It was a good thing

16     for others, also, to see that they were for peace, that they were not

17     willing to enter into any kind of fighting, and they wanted to hand over

18     the weapons at the garrison.  All of that was recorded.

19             Of course, I permitted them gladly to do that, and I was at the

20     garrison there with them.  They handed over the weapons and then they

21     returned to their homes.  They even were given receipts for the pieces

22     that they handed over at the garrison.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, one second.  We couldn't hear the

Page 34962

 1     question in interpretation.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Were there those who were opposed to the

 4     hand-over of the weapons on the Muslim side, and would you be able to

 5     give us any of those names, names of people who were opposed to the

 6     surrender of weapons?

 7        A.   Yes, there were those who obstructed this action in a very

 8     insolent unpleasant way going from house to house, and they were informed

 9     of the people who intended to hand over the weapons.  So they mistreated

10     them, physically.  One of those leaders was Jusuf Ramic and one of the

11     most insolent ones was Mirsad Kugic, aka Mirso, from Puharska.  We even

12     have a case where there were two brothers where one was in favour of

13     surrendering the weapons and the other one was explicitly against it.

14     These were the Orgadic [phoen] brothers.  And the one who was opposed to

15     this was shouting and throwing insults around in a very specific way;

16     whereas, his brother took an active part in collecting the weapons and in

17     trying to convince the people that this was a better solution.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you present with this happened?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in one or two instances.  I

20     was -- when summoned by a person to either protect them from those people

21     and make them stop doing that, I was there to try to stop something like

22     that from happening.

23             Why did Jusuf Ramic --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- behave like that?  This is what

Page 34963

 1     I'm trying to say.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But this was not what you were asked.

 3             Mr. Lukic, next question, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vujic, even though it was not stated

 6     explicitly in the question, but I know what you're trying to say.  So

 7     could you please explain to us the role of Jusuf Ramic at that time so

 8     that we can understand that better?

 9        A.   Jusuf Ramic was a man who was appointed by the SDA as commander

10     of the regional TO staff in Puharska.  He worked on the other side.  He

11     was arming the Muslims, digging trenches, and organising units.  And then

12     when it turned out that there were those who wanted to hand over their

13     weapons, of course he had to oppose that and he did that the whole time.

14     You are aware here of a person called Rasim Dzafic, he provided a

15     statement, and was one of the victims in the incident regarding the

16     Puharska mosque.  He called me one time and he said that Mirsad Kugic and

17     this Ramic had slapped him.  And since I knew Rasim Dzafic very well --

18     actually, a couple of months ago, he reminded me of this, and he thanked

19     me for saying that his own personal pistol that I knew he possessed was

20     something that he should not hand over because he had to defend himself

21     from people like that.  So that was for his own safety, and he's grateful

22     to me for that to this day.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that it was not handed over.  Was

24     anything handed over of the TO weapons at that time?  If you remember

25     that.

Page 34964

 1        A.   A very small number of semiautomatic rifles, just a few automatic

 2     rifles, and the rest were M48s.  I know for a fact that the

 3     Territorial Defence had all types of infantry weapons at its disposal.

 4     However, no machine-gun was there.  No hand-held launcher was there.  All

 5     that was there were M48s, PAPs, and two automatic rifles, military ones,

 6     were handed over.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So what happened to the people who handed over the

 8     weapons?  Did co-operation with them continue?  What happened?

 9        A.   Of course, since I continued to work in Puharska, they were my

10     main foundation for further work.  They were constantly at my service.

11     They even provided information about the things that were going on around

12     them.  So I could predict certain things and was able to thwart certain

13     things as a result of that.  I have a number of examples which would

14     clearly illustrate the kind of things that were going on over there.

15        Q.   And that's my next question.  Would you please give any examples

16     that would indicate what you're talking about, and are you talking about

17     Puharska or a broader area?

18        A.   At the moment I'm only speaking about Puharska and my activities

19     there.  There was some 5.000 inhabitants living there at the time, so it

20     was not just any old number.  We're talking about a lot of people and a

21     densely inhabited area.  In view of the fact that I gave my phone number

22     to many people so that they could call me in case of any unpleasantness

23     so that we could intervene, even though it was not my task to maintain

24     law and order.  I was a soldier.  That was the work of the police.

25             However, the co-operation that we had obliged me to help the

Page 34965

 1     people.  One day somebody called me on the telephone to say that the

 2     population of a very long street in Puharska had all left their houses.

 3     I went there quickly with my security detail and what I saw was a large

 4     number of, let's say, women and children, there were very few men, who

 5     were going somewhere.  I said, "Where are you going?"  They said that

 6     they were coming from the direction of Cejreci, and they said that they

 7     would all get killed.  As a commander at that point in time, I had no

 8     information about any kind of combat actions --

 9        Q.   Can you please just stop for a minute.  For the purposes of the

10     interpretation, can you please tell us what they told you?  Who was going

11     from Cejreci?

12        A.   They simply said there is shooting from Cejreci --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the name of

14     the place.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And so that's why they were

16     leaving.  They were going towards us from the direction of that village

17     because there was shooting there.  So then I told them, "I'm just going

18     to find out exactly what's happening.  Go back to your homes.  Nobody

19     will touch you."  And the result of my inquiry, if I may call it that,

20     was that Jusuf Ramic had started a false alert from the boundary with

21     Cejreci, he told the people, "Run, they're going to kill you."  He wanted

22     to create an atmosphere of fear.

23             Fortunately, because I intervened so quickly, the people were

24     stopped.  They returned to their homes.  I have a few of my work

25     colleagues there, who live there, they were in that column.  They thanked

Page 34966

 1     me later, and they said that they had been naive and they had believed

 2     Jusuf Ramic.

 3             So you can see the kind of things that they did in order to carry

 4     out their objectives in order to undermine our actions leading to

 5     reconciliation, to undermine everything that we were doing so that people

 6     could live side by side so that they could live together and avoid any

 7     kind of clash.

 8        Q.   You told us about the mosque in Puharska, that it was destroyed.

 9     Were any houses destroyed in the explosion and, if so, how many?

10        A.   Yes, unfortunately.  It was a very powerful explosion.  The

11     shocks practically razed the next door house down to the ground.  The

12     house belonged to the old hodza, Ziko Kusuran, who was unfortunately

13     killed then in his bedroom.  His wife also was killed; I knew her as

14     well.  The house of Rasim Dzafic was also destroyed.  That was across

15     from the barracks.  Another house, I don't know who that belonged to.

16     And then the glass shattered in the immediate area.  The roofs were left

17     intact but all the glass, all the window pains shattered.

18        Q.   And what state were the other houses in during the war in Donja

19     and Gornja Puharska?

20        A.   In 90 per cent of the cases, the houses remained intact.  They

21     were not damaged or looted or demolished.  Again, there was no combat in

22     the real sense of the word there.  There was some odd fighting here and

23     there when a section of the Muslim population went to third countries.

24     Then their homes were occupied by some other people.  So then we had the

25     problem there of maintaining law and order and preventing looting or, God

Page 34967

 1     forbid, the demolition of houses.  What usually would happen was that

 2     when the owner wasn't there they would dismantle the roof and then

 3     everything else that they wanted to dismantle, even if they didn't need

 4     it, but we did manage to prevent this and Puharska remained untouched.

 5     90 per cent of the buildings there remained untouched.

 6        Q.   The record says 90 per cent.  Did you say 90 per cent and more?

 7        A.   I said 90 per cent and more, since only a few houses could not

 8     have been under control and then that happened to them.  But as for the

 9     rest, everything remained the same.

10        Q.   These houses, once they were empty, were refugees put up there?

11        A.   In part of them, yes.  In part of them, no.

12        Q.   The inhabitants of Puharska, did you give them some other kind of

13     assistance in food, medicine?

14        A.   After the attack on Prijedor and the mop-up of Puharska, I

15     started communicating with them in a completely different way.  I entered

16     Puharska in order to have everything that was happening under my control,

17     and that is how I had contact with the entire population.  These people

18     who I said should help and co-operate, they were intermediaries, when

19     somebody needed medicine urgently.  And also there were some who said

20     that they had always been poor, and then at this time that we are talking

21     about when there is no electricity, no water, and no food, when they're

22     unemployed, then we helped.  We gave them food and clothing.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a small point.

24             What was the ethnicity of the residents of Puharska?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 98 per cent Muslim.  The rest, a

Page 34968

 1     few Croats and Serbs.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   When providing this aid to Puharska and its population, what was

 5     the attitude of your superior command?

 6        A.   I, as commander, I went to report to the brigade commander

 7     regularly.  I went for briefings, and I presented my activities in detail

 8     there and how far I had gone.  And, of course, my commander was familiar

 9     with all of my activities.  I had support to help as much as possible,

10     and I had the support to persevere so that we could prevent an armed

11     conflict in the area, if that was possible.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are approaching the one hour you had

13     asked for.  I do not know how much time you'd still need, whether it

14     would be wise to take a break now or -- well, let's say to take a break

15     in five or eight minutes when you have consumed your one hour?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I thought I have still time left.  I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I say, but not much.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And then would you use that time before the break or

20     would you use that time --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe after a break.  Then I could be able to

22     reorganise and to maybe cut down.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, because your time, it's less than ten

24     minutes at this moment.  Let me be clear on that.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I think it would be sufficient.

Page 34969

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Vujic, we'll take a break again, and

 2     we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 1.30.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I do understand that you would like to

 8     have more time.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I cut down my questions.  I know that it does not

10     make any sense that I need more time, but maybe -- I will try to finish

11     as soon as possible.  I will really try to focus this gentleman and

12     myself, so I try to finish in ten but I'm afraid I need a bit more time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then 15 minutes would hopefully --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, you started with 30 minutes, then it became

16     one hour, it's now one hour and a little bit more.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, may I ask you to carefully listen to the

19     questions and to give concise answers to those questions and not go

20     beyond that.  Mr. Lukic is limited in his time.

21             Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Vujic, we have some 15 minutes and we

24     have quite a bit of material to cover, so let us be as concise as

25     possible.  At the same time, I have to wait for the interpretation.  So

Page 34970

 1     don't be confused by that.

 2             How long did this co-operation of yours last with the people in

 3     Puharska?

 4        A.   It went on for a very long time.  In some cases, even up until

 5     the end of the war.

 6        Q.   Until when did people in Puharska remain in their homes?  How

 7     many stayed on?  Can you tell us about that?

 8        A.   Since I left Prijedor and went to the front line with my unit, I

 9     cannot give you very specific information on that.  But at moments when I

10     came for regular leave with my unit to Prijedor, I found a lot of the

11     Muslims in their homes, but then I also found out that some of them left

12     of their own free will; left Prijedor, that is.

13        Q.   Today, do you have any friends among the Muslim people in

14     Puharska?

15        A.   Yes.  I have a lot of Muslim friends, precisely from that area.

16     I meet up with them often.  We have coffee together, we socialise, and

17     sometimes we even discuss this topic.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In relation to paragraph 14 of your statement --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we be shown paragraph 14, please.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I wanted to show you one document, but, yes, we can

21     see the paragraph 14 first.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] There is a reference to paramilitary formations.

23             Mr. Vujic, I would like to show you a document, P3095.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the next page.  In both

25     versions, we need the next page.  We need the first paragraph and we need

Page 34971

 1     the heading.

 2        Q.   Mr. Vujic, this is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska dated the 23rd of September, 1995.  And there is a

 4     reference here to members of the Serb Volunteer Guard, known as Tigrovi,

 5     Tigers, under the command of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  It says here

 6     that since so far these formations have not taken part in combat

 7     activities and have not become part of any establishment unit and have

 8     not reported to any command from the level of battalion to the VRS Main

 9     Staff.  Obviously, these are military formations acting independently of

10     the VRS.

11             My question to you:  In the autumn of 1995 in the area of

12     Prijedor, did you find members of the Serb Volunteer Guard there, rather

13     Arkan's Tigers?

14        A.   Yes, I found them there.

15        Q.   Did they report to you, asking for assignments, combat tasks?

16        A.   No.  I don't know who they got tasks from, but then I realised

17     that they did not know who the brigade commander was or the commander of

18     the operations group at that time, Colonel Zeljaja.  It was clear to me

19     that they were not receiving tasks from the army.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would just like to speak about that period,

21     briefly, the autumn of 1995.  Or rather, October.  The 12th, 13th of

22     October, 1995, the attack on Prijedor.  Where was your unit on the

23     10th of October, 1995?

24        A.   The 3rd Battalion and I were in the area around Gradacac, and our

25     task was to guard the corridor.

Page 34972

 1        Q.   When did you come to Prijedor and why?

 2        A.   12th to 13th, I was sent from Gradacac to Prijedor, just to spend

 3     the night there and to get information as to what was happening in our

 4     area, Sanski Most, Kljuc, and the other municipalities.  However --

 5        Q.   What was happening?  Tell us?  What was happening at that point

 6     in time with Kljuc and Sanski Most?

 7        A.   At that time the 5th Corps, reinforced with other units, and

 8     assisted by NATO, was taking one municipality after the other.  I believe

 9     it was some 13 municipalities that they took in a single operation.  They

10     advanced towards Prijedor, the army withdrew, civilians fled.

11        Q.   When did you arrive in Prijedor?  Did you come together with your

12     troops?  Did you come without them?  Just tell us that.

13        A.   Since I arrived a day earlier and since I had contact with my

14     commander, I was familiarised with the entire situation that was evolving

15     in that area, and I found out that the corps commander had approved that

16     my unit be replaced from their previous positions and that they should

17     set out immediately towards the area of Prijedor.  I was waiting for my

18     battalion, and my assistants organised the movement of the battalion.

19        Q.   So one day after you, your unit arrived as well, as you've just

20     said.  Page 69, line 24, of LiveNote.  Where were you with your unit?

21        A.   I knew how far my unit had gone.  I waited for them at the

22     entrance into Prijedor.  I stopped the column.  But in part, we did enter

23     the inhabited area.  And since there was great fear among the civilian

24     population knowing what was going on in the area around Prijedor, many

25     civilians gathered there.  However, I issued an order stating that my

Page 34973

 1     company commanders and platoon commanders should get off buses in order

 2     to be given tasks.  This was an order that had to do with the combat

 3     operations of our unit only.

 4             I communicated to them that 13 municipalities had fallen, and

 5     they knew about some of them earlier on, but they weren't aware of the

 6     fact that Sanski Most had fallen.  For them that was a major, major

 7     surprise.  Like for me the previous evening.  My order then was that we

 8     should defend Prijedor, that I only wanted soldiers to have rifles and

 9     RAPs on them.  Nothing else.  No other equipment.  I said that we had no

10     artillery support or any other kind of support and that we were probably

11     going to fight direct with the Muslim forces that were probably

12     encouraged by having taken all this territory, and they were on the

13     threshold of Prijedor and they probably wanted to move further on.

14             Also, I asked my soldiers to go through Prijedor singing.  We

15     were experienced soldiers.  We knew what that meant.  That was our way of

16     showing that we were prepared to defend Prijedor resolutely and that is

17     indeed what happened.

18        Q.   When did you introduce your battalion into combat?

19        A.   The battalion went into the combat after the order was issued,

20     about an hour or an hour and a half.  Practically, they got off the buses

21     and joined the fighting right away.  We were close to Ostra Luka in the

22     village of Baliskovici [phoen], and that's where we already encountered

23     their reconnaissance units and their crack units that were advancing.

24     And hand-to-hand combat began immediately, whereby we thrashed their

25     first reconnaissance groups, and then --

Page 34974

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

 2     of his answer.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.

 5        A.   I said that I found a number of Arkan's soldiers in that area,

 6     the strength of a platoon, who had still not joined the fighting.

 7        Q.   Did you issue any orders to them?

 8        A.   No, I did not issue any orders to them.  They didn't even know

 9     which unit was on its way.  At one point in time, one of their officers

10     introduced himself to us saying that he was a senior guards officer, and

11     he said, "When Vujic comes, everything will be settled."  And he was

12     talking to me.  So I concluded that he didn't know who he was talking to,

13     so I said, "I am Vujic.  I have my task.  I am going to be moving ahead."

14     So then after that, we didn't have any more contact.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to interrupt you to tell Mr. Lukic that he

16     has two minutes left.

17             Mr. Lukic, you ask a question, and the first sentence answers the

18     question, then the witness continues for a whole page and you let him go.

19     It's up to you how you handle your witnesses.

20             You have two minutes left.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you heard.  We still have just two minutes

23     left.  What about the communications system of your unit, of your

24     brigade?

25        A.   At that point in time, the communications system was in complete

Page 34975

 1     breakdown and we were completely aware that this was something that NATO

 2     was doing, because the communications system was not something that the

 3     Muslims could disable completely like that.  There were drones flying

 4     over.  They were going above their territory.  We entered the theater

 5     under horrific Muslim artillery fire.

 6        Q.   And the forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did they

 7     have drones?

 8        A.   Of course they didn't have any, and we knew that as experienced

 9     soldiers.  These were drones that belonged to the NATO Alliance.

10        Q.   Mr. Vujic, thank you very much.  We don't have any questions for

11     you anymore.  And thank you.

12        A.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14             Mr. Vujic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Zec.  You find

15     Mr. Zec to your right.  Mr. Zec is counsel for the Prosecution.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Vujic.

20        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Zec.

21        Q.   I noticed a few times that you referred to the attack on

22     Prijedor, and you were referring to an action of 30th May 1992; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You did not mention this in your statement, but you were aware,

25     were you not, that Serbs took over power in Prijedor on 30th April 1992;

Page 34976

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, I knew that Serbs had taken over power on the 29th of April.

 3        Q.   In the week before 30th May 1992, the 43rd Brigade, your brigade,

 4     had carried out operations in Hambarine and Kozarac.  You were aware of

 5     this; right?

 6        A.   Yes, I was aware of it.

 7        Q.   Large amounts of civilian property were destroyed in those

 8     operations.  Were you aware of this; right?

 9        A.   Yes, I was aware of it.

10        Q.   Many non-Serbs were taken prisoner.  But you were aware of this

11     as well; right?

12        A.   Yes, I was aware of it.

13        Q.   Large numbers of non-Serbs were killed in those operations.  You

14     were aware of this as well; right?

15        A.   I didn't know how many people were killed.  But in view of the

16     fierceness of the fighting, it was possible to conclude that the number

17     would be high.

18        Q.   Well, let me now turn to the list of your soldiers who you say

19     were non-Serb members of your unit, and I would just put to you a few --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you do that, could I ask one follow-up

21     question.  You said:

22             "In view of the fierceness of the fighting, it was possible to

23     conclude that the number would be high."

24             Are you talking about soldiers, about members of the armed

25     forces?  That's what I understand.  But were civilians killed?

Page 34977

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I assumed that there

 2     were dead people, people killed in view of the fierceness of the

 3     fighting.  But since I wasn't there, I didn't know who it was that was

 4     killed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither that it was a result of the fierce fighting?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The killed could only have

 7     been a consequence of the combat actions, actually.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a conclusion rather than factual knowledge,

 9     isn't it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know because I

11     wasn't there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

13             MR. ZEC:

14        Q.   And you said that you knew that non-Serbs were taken prisoner.

15     You also knew that the prisoners were taken into camps by the members of

16     the VRS.  You were aware of this as well; right?

17        A.   Yes, I was aware of that.

18        Q.   So that we are clear, when we -- camps, we are talking about

19     Keraterm, Omarska, Trnopolje; right?

20        A.   No, I don't agree about Trnopolje.  That definitely was not a

21     camp.  It was a collection centre.

22             As for Keraterm, we can describe it however we want.  But

23     initially, when people were being held there, it was a place where those

24     who were captured were taken to.  They were brought in there.  I'm

25     talking about Keraterm and that's why I say that I knew that there were

Page 34978

 1     prisoners there, because that happened to be in my area of replenishment,

 2     so I did have information about what was happening there.

 3        Q.   And to be clear, regardless what was the understanding what these

 4     places were, but VRS took these people to these places.  That's what was

 5     going on; right?

 6        A.   To Keraterm, yes.  But not to Trnopolje.  They went to Trnopolje

 7     by themselves to seek shelter and a safe area.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about Omarska?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Omarska was set

10     up a bit later.  And, of course, nobody could go there by themselves.

11     The only people who went there were those who were supposed to go through

12     the vetting procedure or had already been through that procedure and were

13     then taken there.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  By the VRS; right?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that as far as Omarska is

16     concerned, that this was mostly done by the police.  I don't know if

17     soldiers also did that to a certain extent.  I don't know that.  But I

18     know that the police did that.  After interrogations in Keraterm, the

19     police would then escort the people to Omarska.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One follow-up question.  Did you personally visit

22     Trnopolje?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I happened to be in Trnopolje a day

24     or two after combat actions in Kozarac, and I saw the columns that were

25     arriving to Trnopolje from the direction of Kozarac, Kevljani, and those

Page 34979

 1     other villages in that area from the direction of Kozarac.  Thus, I was

 2     there for one day.  I was summoned to sweep the terrain around the

 3     Kozarac railway station.  Somebody shot at those civilians, and that's

 4     why my command had sent me, to see what was going on there.

 5             The fact was --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have thorough talks with the Trnopolje staff

 7     or with detainees, or did you just happen to be there to perform the task

 8     which you just described?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After sweeping the terrain, the

10     section where the firing came from at the civilians, we established that

11     this was done by Muslim ethnic groups that had been broken apart in

12     Kozarac.  After a few hours, I got there, they were not there anymore --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, this is all not an answer to my

14     question.  My question was whether you had thorough talks with the

15     Trnopolje staff or detainees?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke with only one man.  And if

17     you like, I can describe my conversation with him.  It was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all tell us who it was.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name.  He was the

20     owner and a driver of a truck.  A long truck.  He drove a full truck

21     covered with a tarpaulin.  The truck was packed with women and children.

22     They had put straw at the bottom of the truck.  And then when they

23     disembarked, he said that he was going back to bring in another batch of

24     people from Kamicani, civilians, also who were fleeing from fighting.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.

Page 34980

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   As I indicated, we were looking at your list of your soldiers,

 4     and I will have just a few brief questions.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Can we have on the screen D1042.

 6        Q.   If you look at the list, item number 5 is a name, Nenad Babic,

 7     and there is a note that his former name was Nedzad Sikiric.  So this is

 8     an example of a Muslim changing name into surname; right?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   Item number 33 is Enver Dracic.  According to this list, he was

11     in your unit in 1996.  That's the period after the war; right?

12        A.   No, this cannot be after the war.  It can just be just before the

13     end of the war.  And you can see that he was there for less than one

14     month.

15        Q.   In --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the war still ongoing in 1996, Mr. Vujic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was no combat but the

18     unit was still intact.  It was mobilised.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the question is whether it was still war.

20     This Chamber received information that the war was ended by the Dayton

21     agreements, which were not in 1996.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I said that no combat

23     actions were being carried out, but the unit was still not demobilised.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But before that, you said, sir, at page 77,

Page 34981

 1     line 23:

 2             "No, this cannot be after the war.  It can just be just before

 3     the end of the war."

 4             That's what you said.  You said he joined this unit just before

 5     the end of the war.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what is your question?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question is:  Therefore, you can't say there

 8     was no combat -- he joined when there was no combat, because you said

 9     that he joined in 1996.  We are being told that, in fact, the war ended

10     in 1995.  So he cannot have joined just before the end of the war if he

11     joined in 1996.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The wartime unit was still

13     mobilised, and it was still mobilising and discharging members.  So he

14     was mobilised at the time when the unit was still active, and he was

15     carrying out some other military duties and tasks.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You're not answering my question.

17     Thank you so much.

18             Yes, Mr. Zec.

19             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Page 2, item number 54, is Ibrahim Keric.  It says:  "Change to

21     Goran Knezevic."  Muslim name change into Serb name; right?

22        A.   Yes, evidently.

23        Q.   English page 4, B/C/S page 3, item number 123, another example of

24     Muslim changing name into Serb, right?

25        A.   Could you please repeat the name you're talking about?  What

Page 34982

 1     number is it?

 2        Q.   123, Esad Husic changed to Zoran Zoric.

 3        A.   Yes, he changed his first and last name, but he left the father's

 4     name the same.  So it's still Hilmija.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Can we look at page 1 in both languages.

 6        Q.   Item numbers 38 and 39, Jasmin and Sulejman Zahidic.  Looking at

 7     their first and last name, these are Muslim first and last names; right?

 8        A.   It's Zahidic, Jasmin and Zahidic, Sulejman, and their father's

 9     name is Sulejman.  They are Roma.  And they are Roma of Islamic faith and

10     they are brothers.

11        Q.   Person under item number 38, Jasmin Zahidic.

12             MR. ZEC:  In English it should be the first page.

13        Q.   He was in your unit when the unit was deployed at corridor near

14     Brcko; right?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16        Q.   He was assigned to your unit as a part of his work obligation;

17     right?

18        A.   No, he was there as a member of the wartime unit.  Not on work

19     duty.  One went on work duty from a unit to do something in some kind of

20     company or enterprise.

21        Q.   He was building trenches at the front lines and he was injured;

22     right?

23        A.   No, that's not true.  Jasmin Zahidic and his brother were regular

24     soldiers of the 3rd Battalion.  I think it was either the 3rd or the 4th

25     Company.  They were fighters.  And he was wounded in combat, gravely

Page 34983

 1     wounded.

 2             And if you permit me, when I was talking about the relations, how

 3     we protected each other and defended each other at the front, when Jasmin

 4     was seriously wounded, two other fighters were wounded in attempts to try

 5     to pull them out -- pull him out.  They were both Serbs.  The medic was

 6     seriously wounded but still we pulled Jasmin out.

 7        Q.   If we look his local statement, the 65 ter 32526.  We need page 2

 8     in B/C/S, page 4 in English.  In the middle of the page, you should be

 9     able to see:  3 [sic] February 1993 when Rade Crnogorac reassigned me to

10     the unit of Drasko Vujic, commander of the 5th Battalion of the 43rd

11     Brigade of the so-called VRS.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's 13 February, not 3 February.

13             MR. ZEC:  My apologies.

14        Q.   "Where I was to perform my work obligation.  I went to Pelagicevo

15     near Brcko on 13 February 1993 to carry out my work obligation.  With me

16     were a dozen of Bosniaks."

17             A few lines below:

18             "In Pelagicevo I performed together with the others making

19     trenches and putting logs in the trenches and then covering them with the

20     soil.  I did this work for five days," and he said he was wounded by

21     shrapnel.

22             So this is what happened to Jasmin; right?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be something -- I hear in the

24     background -- I think it's the B/C/S or the French I was -- it was not

25     loud enough to decipher.

Page 34984

 1             Could we take care that there is no -- I still hear it, but -- I

 2     don't know what happens.

 3             I think we can continue, but if someone would take care of that.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             Yes, could you answer the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand this properly, I

 7     don't know who gave the statement, but I state with full responsibility

 8     that Jasmin Zahidic was not in my work platoon.  Rather, he was a member

 9     of the unit.  He was never in the work platoon.  I assume that Zahidic

10     gave this statement under some kind of great duress, because this is not

11     the way he expresses himself.  Somebody wrote this for him.  And

12     secondly, he was never in the work platoon.

13             Yes, please go ahead.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Refrain from speculation.

15     You may say that's not how it was, but to speculate on how that statement

16     was taken is not for you to do, unless you have any specific knowledge

17     about that.

18             Please proceed.

19             So you say this is not how it happened.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:

22        Q.   Let's turn now to a different topic.  You say in your

23     statement --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Zec --

25             MR. ZEC:  Yes?

Page 34985

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- you said this is an interview, a local

 2     interview.  Could you be a little bit more precise.  What document is it?

 3             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Vujic, just to avoid any problems, you said -- you were

 5     inquiring who made this statement.  This is statement of person who you

 6     say was member of your unit.  His name is Jasmin Zahidic, and MUP -- this

 7     statement was provided in Zenica when he was expelled from Prijedor in

 8     1995.  So this is what he said what happened to him while he was

 9     performing his work obligation in your unit.  Are you disputing this?

10        A.   Yes, of course I am challenging it, what you said just now.  Just

11     for one reason:  The Zahidics were not expelled from Prijedor.  They were

12     well liked, very well liked in Prijedor.  Our neighbours of Roma

13     ethnicity, Alija was his mother's name, and all the neighbours liked her

14     very, very much.

15        Q.   No reason for details.  We will come back to these events in

16     1995.  But the fact is that this person ended up in Zenica in 1995

17     because he was expelled by the VRS from Prijedor.  Are you disputing

18     that?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't receive interpretation.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I'm disputing that.  Of

22     course I'm disputing that.  I'm sure that none of my soldiers were

23     expelled.

24             I can repeat.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it has been translated -- interpreted meanwhile.

Page 34986

 1             Mr. Zec, I'm looking at the clock.  It's time to adjourn.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vujic, we'll adjourn for the day and we'd like

 4     to see you back Monday, that is the 4th of May -- yes, it's the 4th of

 5     May, 9.30 in the morning.  But I'd first instruct you that --

 6             No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  You know the rules.

 7             I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak or

 8     communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony

 9     you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be given on

10     Monday.

11             If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you earlier postponed any submissions on

14     scheduling.  Does that still apply?  It was something about next week.

15     If it's urgent, we would like to hear.  If not, then we'll just wait

16     until Monday or --

17             MR. LUKIC:  We can --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you inform the Chamber, I --

19             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we are in agreement with the Prosecution

20     to bring the witness and to finish his direct and cross, and one of our

21     witnesses did cancel his testimony.  He had some obligations he could not

22     postpone, and we moved him to the last week of May.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

24             MR. LUKIC:  But with Mr. Draskovic testifying next week, I think

25     that we would be close to okay.

Page 34987

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore at this moment there is nothing

 2     that we have to worry about.  You still may have some worries, but --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the

 5     4th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in courtroom I.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day

 8                           of May, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.