Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35236

 1                           Thursday, 7 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             First of all, very unfortunate where I was unable to sit

12     yesterday; today it is Judge Fluegge who for urgent personal reasons is

13     unable to sit with us.  Judge Moloto and myself have considered whether

14     it would be in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case and

15     we concluded that it was.

16             The Chamber was informed, Mr. Lukic, that the Defence wished to

17     raise a preliminary matter.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your Honours.

19             We are -- the Defence is facing difficulties with bringing the

20     witnesses for the last working week in this month, since two of our

21     witnesses cannot come and testify in that period of time.  So we talked

22     to the Prosecution and we think that we found a solution, but we proposed

23     some new witnesses in our motion from the 24th of March, 2015, and one of

24     them is willing and able to attend the proceedings in that week, and it

25     is Simic, Savo.  So we kindly ask Your Honours to decide on our motion as

Page 35237

 1     soon as possible so we can continue with the preparations and bringing of

 2     this witness to testify in front of Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If only for that witness to say the least.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  At least for that witness, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider that.

 6             Mr. --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we have spoken, and Mr. Weber has -- can

 8     handle that.  We would appreciate any more information or statements

 9     regarding the person as soon as possible.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I think that we spoke with Mr. Weber.

11     There is a statement from Karadzic trial for this witness and we will be

12     using that statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC:  If I remember correctly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The Chamber is now aware of the urgency of

16     deciding and -- certainly in respect of that witness.  We'll give it

17     priority.

18             Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, maybe this helps the Chamber expedite

20     things.

21             The Prosecution has no objection to the adding of the witness and

22     actually what we need -- we understand he's going to be testifying based

23     on his past statement.  So if we could get the 92 ter motion sooner

24     rather than later, that would be optimal for the Prosecution.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the 92 ter motion, but the first issue

Page 35238

 1     is adding him to the witness list.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If the -- if there are no other preliminaries, then

 4     could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Stevanovic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stevanovic, before we continue I'd like to

 9     remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've

10     given at the beginning of your testimony, and Mr. McCloskey will now

11     continue his cross-examination.

12                           WITNESS:  TIHOMIR STEVANOVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, sir.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   This morning we'll get into a bit more of the -- your testimony

18     yesterday about the documents and a bit about communication.  So if we

19     could start off with Exhibit 2 -- P2109, and --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, I think you are recorded as you

21     pronounced.  Does it start with a 2 before the P, that's what you said.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry.  2109, P02109.

23        Q.   And you'll recall - and we can see - this is the 11 July 1995

24     document that you testified was typewritten which we agree with you on

25     that point.  And it is -- if we can go to the next page in the English

Page 35239

 1     and the original document, we can see that this order is under the name

 2     of the commander, Colonel-General Ratko Mladic.  And it has s.r.

 3     handwritten in the original next to Mladic's name.  And you talked about

 4     that a bit as well.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So could we go back to the first page.

 6        Q.   And you also, I recall, yesterday talked about another document

 7     that was sent from the comms branch and it had a particular strictly

 8     confidential number.  Do you remember what that strictly confidential

 9     number started out with from the comms -- your comms branch in the

10     Main Staff?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, it was 04-12, but I'm not sure.

12        Q.   Well, that's what you testified yesterday to.  Now, looking at

13     this document, we see it's strictly confidential number 03/4.  Now,

14     that's from Miletic's operations sector, is it not, that number for 1995?

15        A.   I believe so.

16        Q.   All right.  And if we look at the context of this order, we see

17     that it's, would you agree with me, a rather serious situation that

18     Mladic is describing.  We see in the second paragraph he says that there

19     is verified information that the command of the 28th Division,

20     Srebrenica, has asked the command of the so-called Army of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, and basically it says for forces to come from the Sarajevo

22     theatre over to the Srebrenica theatre.  And we can see that the order is

23     to take the following measures and that it's a very urgent order.  And

24     the Court understands the context of what was going on on 11 July in

25     Srebrenica and so I think we can all understand this context.

Page 35240

 1             The Court has also heard evidence that General Mladic was in the

 2     Srebrenica area for most of the day on the 11th of July; is that your

 3     knowledge as well?

 4        A.   My knowledge was not of that nature.  I didn't know where

 5     General Mladic was.  There was no need for me to know that either, but

 6     putting that aside I really didn't know where he was.

 7        Q.   All right.  And if General Mladic is made aware that in the

 8     theatre where he is leading combat actions, that serious reinforcements

 9     are coming from the enemy, and when he receives that kind of information

10     would he not be able to communicate to his Main Staff to get an order out

11     to the appropriate units to take care of that situation?

12        A.   Well, at the command post of the Main Staff, there were officers

13     who could look into that and take measures.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question, Witness.  The

15     question was whether Mr. Mladic -- whether he would be able to

16     communicate with his Main Staff to get an order out under those

17     circumstances?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   General Mladic couldn't get on the comms system that we know had

21     an RRU-1 at Pribicevac, the forward command post of the Srebrenica

22     operation, or perhaps a radio-relay system set up at the Bratunac Brigade

23     and speak to the Main Staff, speak to Miletic or one of his operations

24     people and say:  Get this order out, we have information the Muslims are

25     being reinforced.  Couldn't he have done that?

Page 35241

 1        A.   Even if he had been able to get to a telephone line to call the

 2     Main Staff, he couldn't send this kind of message.  If he had gotten in

 3     contact with the officers in the Main Staff, the only thing that he could

 4     do was to take all the necessary measures.  And then those officers would

 5     know what measures should be taken and that's what they wrote.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm not suggesting General Mladic is encrypting or typing

 7     the document himself.  All I'm saying is that he calls his operations

 8     people, informs them of this dire situation, and tells them to get out an

 9     order to make sure that this situation is dealt with.  He could certainly

10     do that, couldn't he?

11        A.   Well, he could have done something of that kind.

12        Q.   And it would be also true, would it not be, if the operations

13     branch or someone else, the security and intel branch at the Main Staff

14     received this kind of information, they could have been in contact with

15     Mladic, either through the Pribicevac forward command post or the

16     Bratunac Brigade, and informed him of that information and received his

17     orders regarding how to deal with it.  That could have been done as well;

18     correct?

19        A.   The centre at Pribicevac, General Mladic certainly didn't use

20     that.

21        Q.   Sir, you say you didn't even know where he was, so let's answer

22     my question.  It was just the reverse of the first.  If the Main Staff

23     operations people or security and intel people contacted Mladic regarding

24     this information, he would have been able to inform them to get an order

25     out from the Main Staff; correct?

Page 35242

 1        A.   Sending the order differs from conveying a message that measures

 2     should be taken.  Sending an order means that an order has to be typed

 3     and dispatched.  There is a difference there.  That's my answer.  He

 4     could not send an order.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to get back to what seems to be the origin

 6     of the question.  You already testified that General Mladic could contact

 7     the Main Staff if he wanted to exchange views or whatever.  Then the

 8     question was whether the Main Staff could contact Mr. Mladic in urgent

 9     situations so that they could exchange views or have a conversation.  Was

10     that possible?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that they engaged in

12     such a conversation because communication with --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I didn't ask you whether they did.  I just

14     asked you whether the communications were such that the Main Staff could

15     contact Mr. Mladic or Mr. Mladic could contact -- and Mr. Mladic could

16     contact the Main Staff in order to briefly discuss whatever was there to

17     be discussed?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They couldn't contact when they

19     were on the move.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, already in one of the previous answers you

21     contacted that at least Mr. Mladic could tell the Main Staff about

22     measures that they would have to take under such urgent circumstances.

23     So at least part of your present answer is contradicting your previous

24     answer.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would ask for the B/C/S to be

Page 35243

 1     re-translated because in the B/C/S he gave a different answer than was

 2     interpreted in English as a -- one option.  The B/C/S had two options.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Which one, Mr. Ivetic, because --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  My understanding was when they were stationary, they

 5     could; when they were in movement, they could not.  That was the B/C/S.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I was, as a matter of fact, trying to find out

 7     which page, which line.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I'm sorry --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But could -- yes.

10             I asked you whether communication was such that the Main Staff

11     could contact Mr. Mladic or Mr. Mladic could contact the Main Staff, or

12     rather, and Mr. Mladic could contact the Main Staff in order to briefly

13     discuss whatever was there to be discussed.  Could you please repeat the

14     answer you gave to that question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that communication was

16     possible when General Mladic was in a situation to get to the centre.  I

17     don't know whether he did.  When in movement, he could not communicate.

18     Communication was not possible in movement.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- let me just wait for a second.

20             Speaking at an inaudible level, please.

21             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

23        Q.   All right.  If -- yesterday you testified that in the Puch

24     vehicle, the military vehicle, Mladic had communications; right?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 35244

 1        Q.   So if he's in and around that vehicle, he can communicate to the

 2     Main Staff; correct?

 3        A.   The radio telephone in General Mladic's vehicle was not

 4     functioning, so he would use it rarely or not at all, and I'm sure of

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Witness, yesterday you said in civilian

 7     vehicles that were used by General Mladic, there was communications

 8     equipment that he could use.  Now, if equipment is not functional, you

 9     can't use it, isn't it?  That --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Not civilian --

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, he said there's nothing in

12     civilian but he did have it in his Puch vehicle.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just read it again.  Yes, I see that.  It's a

14     terrain vehicle and that's a vehicle that usually commanders had.  And it

15     was about devices that were installed on those vehicles.

16             Radio telephone devices -- you didn't say yesterday that it

17     wasn't functioning in any way, didn't you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is done by radio-repeater

19     devices.  There has to be a repeater in one of the elevations for them to

20     function, but the repeaters did not function.  Their range was such that

21     he really could not use his communication device in the vehicle.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Depending on where he was or in general?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In general.  Our repeaters were not

24     functioning.  There were no spare parts so they became obsolete and

25     unusable.

Page 35245

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yesterday you said, when asked:  These radio

 2     telephone devices, based on what technology did they operate, what type

 3     were they?  Electromagnetic waves, you said, but the range was short and

 4     it depended on repeaters --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- only, their range depended on that, that is --

 7     and then you said that this was installed on the Puch.

 8             Yesterday you didn't say it wasn't functioning at all because

 9     repeaters were not functioning.  You were saying that it depended on the

10     range of the repeaters.  Is that what you said yesterday?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that radio telephone device

12     communication was conditional upon radio repeaters on the elevations, in

13     the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.  At first we

14     did mount them; however, that system very soon became unusable because of

15     the lack of spare parts.  We could not maintain those repeaters for a

16     long time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Why didn't you say this yesterday?  Why didn't you

18     say yesterday it was a useless system because no spare parts, it didn't

19     function at all?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't asked that.  I was only

21     asked what system of communications we used, and I gave you an example of

22     just one such system.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So you gave us -- well, I leave it to that.

24             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 35246

 1        Q.   The Court has seen video of Mr. Mladic driving in his Puch

 2     vehicle approaching Srebrenica between Zeleni Jadar and Srebrenica.  And

 3     they've also heard evidence that the Drina Corps had a communications van

 4     fully set up with an RRU-1 in Pribicevac on a hill above this area within

 5     a few kilometres.  So certainly anybody with a good radio, as you've

 6     described, in a Puch can communicate directly to the Drina Corps comms

 7     van up on the hill above them in Pribicevac a few kilometres away;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   He was able to get to Pribicevac, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   And Pribicevac could speak to the Main Staff?

13        A.   They could speak to the Main Staff via the Drina Corps.

14        Q.   All right.  Let me get back to where I originally was trying to

15     get to.

16             So if General Mladic, having received this vital intel

17     information about potential Muslim reinforcements to his area and he

18     decided to issue an order, the order that we see - I think it's still on

19     the screen - the unsigned order would come in this format, would it not,

20     if Mladic issued the order to the operations people they could have typed

21     it up, put in the details, and sent it off, just like this one?

22        A.   General Mladic could not issue an order to his operatives in this

23     form.  This document prepared to be transmitted by telegram could have

24     been drafted in only one place and that was in the operative staff of the

25     Army of Republika Srpska.  General Mladic could only say:  Take all

Page 35247

 1     measures, if he had gotten in contact with them, and I don't know whether

 2     he did, I was not there, I was not with him.  He could have only said:

 3     Take measures to prevent surprises or something like that.  And for him

 4     to draft such a document and to then send it, no, he didn't -- he

 5     couldn't do that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be no disagreement.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Yes, we don't disagree, sir.  I'm not suggesting he's drafting it

 9     or sending it but --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Actually, when counsel used this document with

11     another witness, he did, he indicated that s.r. meant that General Mladic

12     had personally signed the document.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  That's not what we're talking about,

14     whether he signed it or not.  We're not even there yet.  Nice signal to

15     the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic --

17             MR. IVETIC:  It was Mr. Butler, the Prosecution expert, that this

18     document was used and that was said by this same attorney.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, that's not to be conveyed to the witness

20     under those circumstances.  You can be critical about it, you can argue

21     about it, but it's not information that should be sent to the witness at

22     this moment.

23             Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

25        Q.   And yesterday, on page temporary 35223, line 23, you were asked

Page 35248

 1     by Mr. Ivetic in regard to this document:

 2             "What are the obligations of an encryptions officer receiving an

 3     original that is unsigned?  What can they do?"

 4             And your answer was:

 5             "He has to transmit it because it was brought to him by somebody

 6     who has the authority to send telegrams."

 7             So, in your view, this, what you're calling an original typed

 8     order, was sent?

 9        A.   This was not retyped.  It was typed.  The order was not retyped.

10     It was typed.  It's the original order and it was dispatched.

11        Q.   And it had to be dispatched because the encryptor received it

12     from someone with the authority to send telegrams and in this case -- was

13     that correct as you stated?

14        A.   That's correct, that's correct.

15        Q.   And in this case, it would likely have been someone from the

16     operations branch, since this came from the operations branch as we know

17     from the number?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   And the operations branch would not have put Mladic's name at the

20     bottom of this unless they had the authority from Mladic to do so;

21     correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Now, you've testified at 35223 that s.r. doesn't mean anything.

24        A.   I said that in this case it didn't mean anything.

25        Q.   That's right.  And in other cases, what does it mean?

Page 35249

 1        A.   In other cases, if it was really signed personally by

 2     General Mladic, a document, then the encryptor is obliged to put s.r.

 3     there.

 4        Q.   And that in Serbian means"svojerucno"?

 5        A.   Yes, in his own hand, "svojerucni potpis [phoen]":  Signature in

 6     his own hand.

 7        Q.   S.r. abbreviated.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to that second page of the original.

 9        Q.   And it wouldn't surprise you that Svetozar Andric just testified

10     in this case that "svojerucno," "s.r," meant that -- it meant someone had

11     signed a document in their own hand or it had been signed by the person;

12     basically what you just said?

13        A.   [No interpretation].

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he said.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, you are asked to repeat what you said.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor said that

17     Svetozar Andric said that "svojerucno" means that he signed it and would

18     that surprise me, and I said no that would not surprise me that that's

19     what it means.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that was on transcript 34887, Your Honours.

21        Q.   So this rather -- you'll agree with me, this rather serious

22     document that we see is stamped, somebody has written in s.r. so a -- on

23     this document.  That should have been written by someone from the

24     operations branch; correct?

25        A.   Yes, most probably that is so.

Page 35250

 1        Q.   And given the seriousness of the -- General Miletic and his

 2     operations branch at time of war, someone wrote this down for a

 3     particular reason, didn't they?

 4        A.   That's probably so, judging by the seriousness of the document.

 5        Q.   And when one sees "s.r," that is meant to convey that the person

 6     whose name is on the document was aware of it, correct, at the very

 7     least?

 8        A.   Not necessarily, not necessarily.

 9        Q.   All right.  I think we've made our point.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I noticed that the stamp which

11     appears immediately next to or even over the name of Mr. Mladic is not

12     mentioned in the translation, the stamp of the command.  The other stamp

13     is mentioned but this one is not and also not the text of that stamp.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, and we noted yesterday that

15     there was actually a typo in the date on the English translation which

16     is, as you can see in that bottom stamp, 13 July.  So we'll get you a --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But could you then include this -- the lack of

18     reference to that round stamp as well?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, yes.  That's right and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  To the extent possible, also if the parties could

21     agree on the text of that stamp, that would be appreciated as well.  I

22     see it starts with General Staff, at least from what I understand from

23     the language.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And in that regard, let's go to Exhibit 65 ter

25     25760.

Page 35251

 1        Q.   Now, what we're going to see, and I've discussed this with

 2     Mr. Ivetic to inform him, is an almost -- no, excuse me.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Is this 25760?

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Switch off your mike, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, could we have the same number but c.

 7        Q.   Now, this is an identical version of the typewritten order that

 8     you've seen, sir, but the one you saw was a scanned copy of -- from the

 9     barracks that we received this.  This particular document is the -- what

10     we picked up at the actual barracks, and I want to show this just to hand

11     it to you because we've been talking about originals, and I just want to

12     show you this which is as original as we get and ask you whether it is

13     truly an original or what.  So if we could get some help from the usher,

14     we could hand this document to the person.

15             The Bench can see it.  It's -- as well and I mentioned this to

16     Mr. Ivetic.  And for everyone, there's a bright blue stamp on the back

17     page of it and that is the stamp that was given to us recently when we

18     retrieved it from the barracks, so that doesn't have anything to do with

19     the war-time nature of the document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now looking at the -- could we have a look at

21     the English translation as well, especially the handwriting, or is it the

22     same -- or is there no English translation?

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I see a translation of some handwriting which

25     apparently does not correspond with either of the originals.

Page 35252

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This will be -- the problem will be revealed

 2     soon --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And, sir, you're looking on the back.  And, just so you know,

 8     that is the stamp that we got recently from the Serb authorities, within

 9     the last few years when they gave that to us, so that shouldn't be viewed

10     as part of the original document.

11        A.   No, this one was drafted later.

12        Q.   You're referring to the stamp on the very back of the document?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   All right.  So looking at this, what we both agreed is a

15     typewritten document, this isn't original and, for example, it's not

16     original type ink, it's not original -- I mean it's not type ink, you

17     don't see stamp ink on the front.  This more looks like a photocopy,

18     doesn't it?

19        A.   Yes, this is a photocopied document.  And I have to say we're

20     talking about the 13th of July.  This act bears the date the 15th of

21     July, not the 13th.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please limit yourself to answer

23     the questions.  There's no need for spontaneous comments.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 35253

 1        Q.   Yes, it's the 15th.  So was there a -- did your comms place where

 2     the encryption machine was or in the nearby vicinity was there a

 3     photocopy machine?

 4        A.   We did not have a photocopy machine in the unit for encryption or

 5     encoding and decoding.

 6        Q.   Did the operations sector have a photocopy machine?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So it's possible the operations branch photocopied this and

 9     brought it to you or would they have only brought you an original,

10     stamped document to encrypt?

11        A.   It would always be the original.

12        Q.   Now -- all right.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think there's a need to enter that into

14     evidence.  It may just confuse the issue so --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it in your hands.  And if the Prosecution --

16     if the Defence takes a different position, we'll hear from them.

17             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honours, I think the record is clear as to

18     what the witness has talked about and I think it's fine.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  If we could get it back, thanks.

21             Now let's go to Exhibit 65 ter 25760b.

22        Q.   And, sir, we can see that this is the same date, title, strictly

23     confidential number, and this is a Teletype or a telegram, an encrypted

24     telegram version of what we've been seeing, is it not?

25        A.   Could you please enlarge the document a bit.  I don't see it

Page 35254

 1     well.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could the -- if the usher could help, and I would

 3     be handing him a copy of the typewritten document and a copy of the

 4     Teletype document so he can compare them.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And I've already seen these, so there's no need to

 6     show me.  You can give them directly to the witness, no objection.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   So, sir, just take a look and you'll notice there's been some

 9     highlighting on both those documents which I'll ask you about in a

10     minute, but can you confirm that the -- what we're seeing was the

11     typewritten document and then the -- a copy of the encrypted document.

12     In this case, this was sent to one of the addresses, the -- I think the

13     1st Podrinje Brigade, the Rogatica Brigade, as we can see from the

14     signature of Gojkovic on the top.

15             So do these look -- is that correct?  Sorry -- to simplify the

16     question.  This is the Teletyped version of the typed version?

17        A.   It's correct that -- yes, correct, but the square stamp is

18     missing on the telegram of the received -- the party that received it, so

19     the telegram is not complete.

20        Q.   So for the Rogatica Brigade to have followed the book completely,

21     they would have had to put another stamp on it?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It has not been properly received.

23        Q.   All right.  And we looked this over carefully last night and

24     would you agree that the document -- or the same document aside from the

25     little marked areas in red which we thought were just a matter of slight

Page 35255

 1     typing mistakes by the encryptor, from our view.  So could you compare

 2     the little marks highlighted in red to see if you think that there are

 3     significant differences that may suggest it was encrypted from a

 4     different document or that these are just little mistakes that the

 5     encryptor made as he typed the document into the machine, if you can

 6     tell.

 7        A.   There are two reasons for the errors.  One of them is that the

 8     person who processed it mistyped it; and the second one is that there

 9     were interruptions on the line and that some things were inserted that

10     was sent by the other side.

11        Q.   All right.  But you would conclude that this encrypted document

12     reflects the typed document?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer the Teletype version.

15             MR. IVETIC:  No objections, but we've been talking about

16     markings --

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... 60b into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  We've been talking about marked ones.  Do you want

19     the marked one in or ...

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, I don't think -- the only marked ones were

21     for his opinion regarding whether they were one and the same.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. McCloskey, you referred to red markings.

23     This Chamber doesn't know what markings are in red so it would like to

24     see it anyhow --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

Page 35256

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And then perhaps for the completeness of the record,

 3     it might be better to have it in as well so that at least what is red and

 4     what's not red is clear to everyone who would look into this matter

 5     later.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I'm not sure red will show up so I can give

 7     a version where the red marks are circled and get those into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you could agree on that with Mr. Ivetic,

 9     that would be appreciated, and meanwhile the Chamber would like to have a

10     look at the original as well.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, if we can pass that.  And, Your Honours, for

12     your knowledge, the translation that had the problems in it was a

13     translation of the Teletype version, and there were several Teletype

14     versions.  As you could see, there were several addressees.  So the

15     translation was -- for the typewritten was fundamentally the same but, as

16     you pointed out, a few small differences.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think it may not even be necessary to have

18     the red markings into -- in evidence because they were just -- it's

19     highlighting by a marker which is on three spots.  The first on the first

20     page, directly under B, where the typewritten version is quite -- is

21     slightly different from the word "supivjanska" as it appears in the

22     original.  The same under the heading under "naredjujem 1A" the word

23     "zatvaraju" is slightly different in the encoded version.  And the third

24     appears under the word in a paragraph which is starting with K3 where the

25     word "voda" in the encoded version seems to be "vodova" in the

Page 35257

 1     typewritten version.  That's all the differences.  There's no need to

 2     have it in evidence.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I agree, I agree.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Except, Your Honours, I think that the telegram

 7     version has been tendered.  I think that also should be in evidence.  We

 8     haven't yet given that a number, I think.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 25760b will be MFI P7372, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P7372 is marked for identification.

12             Please proceed.  We have two or three minutes left to the break,

13     Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm very close to being finished.  If I could

15     just rearrange myself, I think I will be able to finish up pretty soon.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  "Pretty soon" is a vague notion.  Before the break

17     or after the break?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we break now, I think I can finish up in 15 or

19     20 minutes, depending on how crazy it gets, but just a couple

20     questions --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  How it develops, yes.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  How it develops.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will take the break first.

24             Witness, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We will

25     take a break now and it will not take long after that.

Page 35258

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at ten minutes

 3     to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stevanovic, we'll now continue with your

 8     cross-examination.

 9             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, just a -- hopefully a few questions about your work at

12     the -- and knowledge at the Main Staff about radio-relay communications.

13             Now, I believe you said that you -- in March of 1995 you left the

14     regiment and moved to a different job.  And when you said you left the

15     regiment or the comms regiment, was that the 67th Communications

16     Regiment?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that was located in Crna Rijeka?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you left that position and took a position where precisely?

21        A.   The communications department, the Main Staff of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska.  Desk officer for cryptographic data protection.

23        Q.   And that was under Prole and was also in Crna Rijeka?

24        A.   At the time that was the case.  And then Colonel Prole got ill

25     and his deputy, Lieutenant-Colonel Mirsad Radakovic, was in Krajina at

Page 35259

 1     the forward command post too.  So I was on my own in the communications

 2     department.  Along the line of command and control, the chief of

 3     communications was replaced by --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't hear the name.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat the name.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last name.  At that time the

 7     commander of communications regiment, Colonel Nedeljko Gredo, stood in

 8     for the chief of communications.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   And you would have known a Velo Pajic at that time, would you not

11     have?

12        A.   Velo Pajic was the commander of the telephone platoon in the

13     company for communications for three years.

14        Q.   And would that have been in the -- of the 67th Communications

15     Regiment?

16        A.   Yes, the 67th Communications Regiment.

17        Q.   So you were both in the 67th Communications Regiment at the same

18     time?

19        A.   Yes, I was a company commander and Velo Pajic worked at Goljak-1

20     feature where he was engaged on establishing and maintaining telephone

21     lines.  He was the commander of a platoon.

22        Q.   And what was his rank in 1995?

23        A.   He was the second lieutenant.

24        Q.   And did you have a son that was in communications with the 65th

25     Protection Regiment in Nova Kasaba?

Page 35260

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you have a son that was in the VRS?

 3        A.   I had two sons in the VRS.

 4        Q.   And where was they in 1995?

 5        A.   One was at Goljak-1 facility where he was an encoder in 1995 and

 6     the other was affiliated with the police station in Zvornik, where he

 7     worked as a communications guy, or rather, a signals man.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, when Mr. Ivetic was talking to you, you spoke a

 9     bit about the encrypted lines between Veliki Zep, which the

10     Trial Chamber's heard quite a bit about.  And you concluded that the

11     lines from Veliki Zep to the various brigades were all encrypted.  Isn't

12     that right?

13        A.   Something similar, but I have to correct you just a little.  I

14     said that the lines from the Main Staff, i.e., from Veliki Zep, to

15     subordinated units, and those were corps commands, the Presidency, and

16     the air force and anti-aircraft defence in Banja Luka and Zarozine

17     [phoen] were encrypted.

18        Q.   Yes, and in fact on page 35207 when Mr. Ivetic asked you:  First

19     of all, which routes could be encrypted?  You answered:

20             "Could have and had to have been encrypted ..."

21             And then you named all the corps, including the Drina Corps.

22     Now, wasn't there a route between Veliki Zep and the Drina Corps that was

23     not encrypted?

24        A.   There was a radio-relay route from Veliki Zep to the Drina Corps

25     which used an RRU-800 device and that was not encrypted.  But that was

Page 35261

 1     mostly used by the Drina Corps, and the Main Staff used only one part of

 2     the channel.

 3        Q.   So you would like to correct your testimony of yesterday that

 4     they had to have been encrypted and that they were encrypted because

 5     there was -- there was one route that wasn't encrypted?

 6        A.   Maybe we spoke at cross-purposes.  I'm talking about RRU-800.  I

 7     said that there was an encrypted route.  Now, as to whether there were

 8     other radio-relay routes between the corps command and the Main Staff, if

 9     there was, I would have said --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  And the witness is speaking too fast.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat the last part of his

12     answer.

13             You were speaking too fast, Witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Ivetic asked me if

15     there were encrypted routes and I said that there were.  If he had asked

16     me if there were any other routes, I'm sure that I would have answered,

17     yes, there was a radio relay route leading to the Drina Corps using an

18     RRU-800 device which was not encrypted.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Sir, I won't dwell on this, but you -- when he asked you if --

21     which routes could be encrypted, you said:

22             "Could have and had to have been encrypted ..."

23             And then you listed the Drina Corps as one of those.  You've

24     specifically failed to mention that there was a route that was -- didn't

25     have to be encrypted and wasn't encrypted.  Why did you do that?

Page 35262

 1        A.   I don't understand, but he did not ask me how many radio-relay

 2     routes were towards the Drina Corps.  I said that there was an encrypted

 3     route.  I didn't say that there was a non-encrypted route.  If he had

 4     asked me if there was another one, I'm sure that I would have mentioned a

 5     radio-relay route that was not encrypted and that used the RRU-800

 6     radio-relay device.

 7        Q.   All right.  So do you know about the routes from the Drina Corps

 8     to the brigades, were those encrypted?

 9        A.   Radio-relay routes from the Drina Corps to the to the brigades

10     were not encrypted.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

14             Mr. Ivetic, any further questions for the witness?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just a few.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

18        Q.   If we could start off from here where we just ended with the

19     Prosecution's cross.  With regard to the radio-relay route between

20     Veliki Zep and the Drina Corps, which radio-relay device was used by the

21     Main Staff?

22        A.   Two types:  One FM-200 which was encrypted on a special route;

23     and another RRU-800 which was not encrypted.

24        Q.   And of these two, was there any difference in the frequency of

25     use?

Page 35263

 1        A.   A huge difference.  The information that contained a degree

 2     confidentiality were sent along encrypted lines.  Encoded telegrams were

 3     sent via the RRU-800 device because they were already encrypted and thus

 4     protected at the source.  Therefore, there was no need to use the

 5     encrypted route to send coded, or rather, already-encrypted telegrams.

 6        Q.   Now, in relation to P2180, you were shown a highlighted version

 7     that had some typographical differences.  And at temporary transcript

 8     page 20, you said that the differences could result from the person who

 9     processed it mistyping it or interruptions in the line.  Could you please

10     explain for us that part of your answer dealing with interruptions in the

11     line.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for my clarification, Mr. Lukic --

13     Mr. Ivetic, P2180, I don't seem to remember it being shown to the

14     witness.

15             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, I apologise.  It was P7372 that was

16     shown to the witness that was highlighted.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer.  A coder may make a

19     mistake, a typing mistake, but it is also possible that along the route

20     due to weather conditions and disturbances that reflect on teleprinter

21     communications.  As a result, there is a surplus of symbols or signs or a

22     shortfall of signs on the final version, hence the mistakes.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at temporary transcript page 15, you said the

25     initials s.r. on a telegram did not necessarily denote that the person

Page 35264

 1     whose name appears on the same is aware of the same.  Could you explain

 2     your answer?

 3        A.   S.r. doesn't mean that the person indicated actually signed the

 4     telegram, and this is a very obvious example because this telegram was

 5     never signed by General Ratko Mladic -- actually, nobody signed it,

 6     although it does say s.r., which means in one's own hand.

 7        Q.   Now at temporary transcript page 13, you were asked if the

 8     operations branch of the Main Staff would not put General Mladic's name

 9     unless they had authority to do so and you said that was correct.  The

10     question I have for you is as follows:  Did the operations branch have to

11     seek authority from General Mladic every time they wanted to send a

12     telegram in his name?

13        A.   Along the line of command and control, the commander of the

14     Main Staff should --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So he did not have to request -- so

17     the operative staff did not have to ask General Mladic's permission to

18     send a telegram of this kind.  In the first possible scenario, the

19     operative staff was duty-bound to inform their commander about the

20     activities that were carried out in his absence, including the telegrams

21     that were sent, and also the purpose of those telegrams.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if I can inquire with the

23     interpreters, do they think we got the whole answer or should I ask him

24     to repeat the answer based upon --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't get the whole answer.  We missed the

Page 35265

 1     first half of the answer.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you guide the witness, because you know what

 3     may be missing, what needs to be supplemented.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Sir, if I can ask you to repeat your answer.  The last -- the

 7     part that got lost, according to the transcript, is as follows:  We heard

 8     you say:  Along the line of command and control, the commander of the

 9     Main Staff should ...  and then there we lost the middle part of your

10     answer.  Could you please repeat what you said from that point forward.

11        A.   When the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS is absent, he is

12     replaced by the Chief of Staff of the VRS.  In this case, the Chief of

13     Staff was also absent.  If the Chief of Staff is absent, then it would be

14     the operative centre that would take over all those duties.  The

15     operative centre was headed by the chief of the operative centre.  The

16     operative centre did not have to request approval from General Mladic for

17     drafting and sending all of the orders that concerned the life and work

18     of the Army of Republika Srpska.

19             Having said that, the operative centre was duty-bound to inform

20     the commander at first opportunity about the activities that they had

21     carried out and the telegrams that had been sent in his absence, as well

22     as the purpose of those.

23        Q.   Sir, I thank you for answering my questions.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, those are all the questions that I

25     have for this witness.

Page 35266

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             Witness, I would have the following question for you.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you think that anyone would dare to send out an

 5     order with the name of General Mladic under it if that person was not

 6     convinced that General Mladic would have given the instructions for such

 7     an order?

 8        A.   I think so, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You think that no one would dare to do that unless,

10     is that well understood?

11        A.   I think that they would dare.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's your position that people would send out an

13     order with General Mladic's name under it even if they were not convinced

14     that this was in line with what General Mladic wanted to be ordered?

15        A.   Precisely, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have an explanation as to why subordinates

17     would send an order, as you say, would dare to send an order not being

18     convinced that it would be in line with the position taken by your

19     superior?

20        A.   I don't have an explanation, but I assume that that person at the

21     moment when he was drafting that order thought that that was the best

22     solution, given the moment and circumstances.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Told by whom?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't see the word "told" in the

25     answer.

Page 35267

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no you're right, Mr. Ivetic.  I may have

 2     misheard.

 3             But would they then not issue that order under their own name

 4     rather than to make it an order by a superior of which they were not

 5     convinced yet or not convinced that that superior would support that

 6     order?

 7        A.   Well, it sounds and looks differently, when you receive an order

 8     that was supposed to have been signed by General Ratko Mladic as opposed

 9     to somebody else.  Everybody obeyed and respected General Mladic.  His

10     orders were carried out, no questions asked.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would abuse his name in order to enforce that

12     the subordinates would follow that order, though it didn't come from

13     General Mladic?

14        A.   God forbid, I wouldn't.  But I suppose that there were such cases

15     as well, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  On what is that supposition based?  Could you give

17     us an example?

18        A.   Well, if we go back to the telegram that was the topic of our

19     conversation here, you can see that that telegram was not drafted by

20     General Mladic, although his name is indicated on it and somebody also

21     made an indication of his signature in his own hand.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you're moving away from what I asked you.

23     It was not about sending a document, but it was by sending an order which

24     the person who sent it or at least the person who took responsibility for

25     the drafting was not convinced that it was supported by General Mladic.

Page 35268

 1     That's the issue I raised with you.  Such a way to abuse the name of

 2     General Mladic to give extra importance to an order, which he was unaware

 3     of.

 4        A.   I'm with you now completely.  In the majority of those cases, the

 5     persons who put his name on an order thought that General Mladic would

 6     have supported that.  But I also said that that was not across the board

 7     and that there may have been, or rather, that there were probably

 8     exceptions to that rule.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, apart from the specific case we

10     addressed, do you have any other examples where someone was sending an

11     order where it became clear that although General Mladic's name was used,

12     that he did not support that or had not given instructions to send out

13     this order?

14             Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  If Your Honour could be more precise.  We talked

16     about several telegrams yesterday in your absence; two in particular, I

17     think, that we --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm focusing on the one we looked at this morning.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Then that's fine.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So could you give us an example, other than that one

21     where General Mladic's name was abused by sending out an order under his

22     name without his support?

23        A.   I don't have any specific examples.  I don't recall it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Any questions triggered by -- Mr. McCloskey no.

Page 35269

 1             Mr. Ivetic?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Just a few.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  If we can look at P02125 in e-court.  This is a

 5     document we looked at yesterday.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  This is dated the 15th of July, 1995.

 8                           Further re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 9        Q.   Looking at this document and recalling your testimony from

10     yesterday, sir, that Mr. Mladic was not in the Main Staff on this day,

11     does this refresh your recollection as to the question that the Judge

12     just asked you about if you're aware of any other instances of documents

13     conveying orders going out under General Mladic's name where you suspect

14     that he had not signed it?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, it's leading and it misrepresents

16     my question.  My question was not whether Mr. Mladic was present, but

17     whether an order would be sent out abusing the name of General Mladic.

18     And if he's not present, that doesn't necessarily mean that it abuses his

19     name, abuse in the sense of that he did not support such an order to be

20     issued.

21             Therefore, please rephrase your question if you consider that

22     it's still relevant.

23             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour, because you're missing in a part

24     of your question that said:  Or had not given instructions to send out

25     this order.  That's the second part of your question, so the fact that we

Page 35270

 1     had evidence yesterday is --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you misunderstood the "or."

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, if I did, then maybe perhaps the witness did

 4     too.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please, as I said, please rephrase your

 6     question.

 7             But I could ask the witness:  This document which appears on the

 8     screen now, Mr. Stevanovic, do you have any information as this -- that

 9     this order was issued against the wishes or without knowledge or support

10     of General Mladic, irrespective of where he was at the time?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically in this telegram

12     General Mladic's name was not used, but actually it was done without his

13     knowledge.  He did not sign this document.  He wasn't there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  But do you have any fact to your

15     knowledge that General Mladic, his name was abused here, that is, that he

16     did not wish this order to be sent out but that the person who did tried

17     to give it additional importance by using the name of General Mladic

18     without any knowledge of him supporting this order?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The proper thing would have been in

20     this document --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness, I stop you there --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I asked you whether you have any facts to your

24     knowledge as I explained to you.  What the way would have been that this

25     order should have been issued is not my question.

Page 35271

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this specific case,

 2     General Ratko Mladic's signature was not misused or his name was not

 3     misused.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             I have no -- Mr. Ivetic, you said you had a couple of questions.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Just one follow-up --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do so, Mr. Ivetic.  You raised a point

 8     that the question by Judge Orie said "or support."  Now, I want to read

 9     to you page 33, lines 11 to 13, where the question was asked and if you

10     can tell us whether the word "or" is there.

11             "So could you give us an example other than that one where

12     General Mladic's name was abused by sending out an order under his name

13     without his support."

14             There's no "or" there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic?

16             MR. IVETIC:  The original question by the Judge before I asked

17     for it to be more precise said that "or had not been given instructions

18     to be sent out."  Which is 33, lines 3 through 4, Your Honours, which

19     still would have been in the witness's mind as the original question with

20     just more details in the follow-up that is in the lines --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm talking about the question that was -- that

22     the witness specifically gave an answer to that you were referring to.

23             MR. IVETIC:  That is the question, Your Honours.  That is the

24     beginning of the question.  I intervened to make it more precise, and

25     then the part that you read was read.

Page 35272

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So that is the question the witness answered?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Both of them.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 6             Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, just one or two in relation to this document

 8     that's on the screen.

 9        Q.   Sir --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to -- I didn't in my questions -- if it's

11     relevant in relation to my question, then of course please proceed.  But

12     I didn't bring up this document, so therefore the mere fact that it's on

13     our screen is not sufficient.  But if it relates to my question, then you

14     may answer -- then you may put questions.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I don't know if we're having a miscommunication or

16     not, but I've been saying now the third time that at temporary transcript

17     page 34, line 25, through temporary transcript page 33, line 4, part of

18     Your Honour's question indicated:  Do you know any other examples where

19     someone was sending an order where it became clear that although

20     General Mladic's name was used that he did not support that or had not

21     given instructions to send out this order."

22             So it is -- my question is in this --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you put this document to the witness,

24     and after some quarrelling the witness said that this was not an instant

25     of abuse.  The question I did put to the witness, and it was clear, that

Page 35273

 1     it is about abuse, one way or another, not just not having given specific

 2     instructions if that is -- but again if it relates to my

 3     question - that's what I said, you may do so.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Is there a problem with the transcript, the part

 5     that I just read?  Is that not the question that you asked that's

 6     recorded in the transcript, Your Honour?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You may put a question to the witness and we'll then

 8     decide --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Okay --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- or even Judge Moloto will decide whether it

11     relates to that matter.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Looking at the document that we have on our screen now, sir, and

14     given your knowledge of the factual circumstances surrounding the same,

15     did General Mladic have prior knowledge of this order before it was sent

16     out?

17        A.   No, he did not.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No further questions.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Very briefly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21                           Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

22        Q.   Sir, this is a Teletype, right, this isn't the original, or --

23     you called it the fact document that would have been handed to the

24     encryptor?

25        A.   Yes, this is a Teletype.

Page 35274

 1        Q.   So the original document, the fact document, could very well have

 2     been signed by General Mladic in his own hand, couldn't it?

 3        A.   It could have been, but in this specific case it couldn't have

 4     been, he did not sign it because he wasn't at the Main Staff.

 5        Q.   You, a major in charge of encryptions, knows that General Mladic

 6     was not at the Main Staff at any time on the 15th of July?

 7        A.   He wasn't there on the 15th of July.

 8        Q.   What gives you God's powers to know that?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you please phrase your question

10     in such a way without invoking any --

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Understood, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- deity.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And I would inquire is the Prosecution changing

14     their position as to --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey will now first rephrase his question,

16     and if there's any objection to that, Mr. Ivetic, we'll hear from you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Sir, the Court understands, has seen evidence about the villa at

19     Crna Rijeka, the cabins at Crna Rijeka, the underground facility at

20     Crna Rijeka.  How is it, sir, that you, an encryptor, knows that Mladic

21     wasn't there at any time on 15 July?

22        A.   Because I was physically present in the Crna Rijeka area on the

23     15th of July at Goljak-1 and Goljak, and I probably would have seen him.

24     I didn't need to have any special powers.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, then let's try to get matters clear.  Are

Page 35275

 1     you telling us that he wasn't there or that you didn't see him and that

 2     you would have expected to see him if he was there?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't there.  I didn't expect

 4     to see him.  Had he been there, I would have probably known it.  At the

 5     entrance of not the villa but the building where General Mladic would

 6     stay is where the Goljak-1 facility was.  So I would have seen him.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You are talking about probabilities of seeing him

 8     and at the same time you say he wasn't there.  But in the improbable case

 9     that he was there, that you didn't see him, is that still an option or is

10     there any way you could exclude that option?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then we didn't understand each

12     other.  I said probably.  And what I meant was -- to say was that I would

13     have seen him.  But let me cut it short.  He was not there on the 15th.

14     He wasn't there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not fully understandable in light of your

16     explanation.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me clarify once again.  Had

18     General Mladic been there in the Crna Rijeka area, in Crna Rijeka itself,

19     I would have seen him for sure since my post required me to walk from

20     Goljak-1 to the cabins, and while I covered that route I would pass by

21     the building used by General Mladic.  Had he been there, I would have

22     seen him.  Had he been at the cabins, I would also have seen him.

23     Because I didn't see him at either of those places or because I didn't

24     run into him, and I knew from before that he was absent, all that points

25     to the fact that he was not in the Crna Rijeka area on the 15th and he

Page 35276

 1     could not have signed this order.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Final question from me:  Did you know -- do you know

 3     where he was during that day?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, any further questions?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Stevanovic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank

 9     you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the

10     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench and travel

11     home safely.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

14             MR. IVETIC:  One point still remaining, Your Honours.  I'd still

15     like to know from the Prosecution have they changed their position --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness is excused.  He is now putting

17     his --

18             MR. IVETIC:  Oh.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you may follow the usher.  You are excused.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to know from the Prosecution if they're

23     changing their position.  As Your Honours perhaps might recall, there is

24     a stipulation entered into by the Prosecution and the Defence that

25     Mr. Mladic was not present in Crna Rijeka on the 15th but rather was in

Page 35277

 1     Belgrade.  So this entire line of questioning at the end baffles me,

 2     given the stipulation that this Prosecution has entered into and that

 3     Your Honours are aware of.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have to look exactly at what was stipulated.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I don't mind being questioned by Mr. Ivetic

 7     and to try to relieve his bafflement, but if I could have the agreement

 8     so that we can see it because I don't think he's got it right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  We'll have a look at it later.  You

10     review it, you'll check what Mr. Ivetic asked you.  I think to clarify

11     this matter if there would be a change - I'm not saying that there

12     is - that it would be good for us to know.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think there has been, but we'll sort it

14     out.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

16             The usher has left the courtroom.  Is the Defence ready to call

17     its next witness?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour, it's Mr. Janko Kecman.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll wait for Mr. Kecman to be escorted into

20     the courtroom.

21             Mr. Lukic, while we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

22     into the courtroom, could I already in anticipation of the questioning,

23     ask that the title above paragraph 7 of his statement -- but I may have

24     missed any -- I have some difficulties in understanding how this relates

25     to anything in paragraph 7 --

Page 35278

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             MR. LUKIC:  In paragraph 7 from my information report or from the

 3     statement?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, from the statement.  Yes, but we'll --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Title -- [overlapping speakers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] -- I draw your attention to

 7     it.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Above paragraph 7.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the relation between 7 to 11 and the title

10     appearing above paragraph 7.

11             Mr. Kecman, good morning.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

12     require that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth,

13     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now handed out

14     to you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  JANKO KECMAN

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kecman.

20             Mr. Kecman, you'll now first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll

21     find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would just kindly ask for

24     the assistance of the usher so I hand this hard copy of the statement.

25                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 35279

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kecman.

 2        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

 3        Q.   Did you at any point provide a statement to the Defence of

 4     General Mladic?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.  That was last year and the date is written here,

 6     it was the 28th of April, 2014.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to approach

 8     the microphone and speak slowly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you come closer to the microphone,

10     please, and speak more slowly.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Kecman, before we begin with the attestation, could we just

14     look at page 3.

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  If we could have 1D1714 on our screens, please.  So

17     we need page 3 in both versions.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Why are we looking at page 3, Mr. Kecman?  The

19     reason for that is because Judge Orie asked why the title or the heading

20     above paragraph 7 up to paragraph 11 states:  Marking of apartments and

21     burning of candles, but we don't see in the text what the heading refers

22     to.  So I just wanted to ask you if you could explain that to us.  Do you

23     have an explanation for it?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, when we talked -- I can just briefly tell you that I

25     went through the whole area, the Republic of Slovenia, the Republic of

Page 35280

 1     Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, so these paragraphs from 7 to 11 talk

 2     about my status in the Republic of Croatia, that of my family, as well as

 3     in all the other areas where we worked in the period of 1991 to 1995.

 4     I'm talking about the Republic of Slovenia.

 5             I see there are a number of issues here so I could clarify each

 6     one, one by one.

 7        Q.   There's no need for that.

 8        A.   All right, Mr. Lukic.

 9        Q.   We will go back to that then, to the question of why this heading

10     is above this paragraph.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But could the witness then - unless you have any

12     follow-up questions.

13             What I do not understand is that the word "marking" doesn't

14     appear anywhere, no marking of apartments, in paragraphs 7 to 11.  And

15     "burning of candles" also does not appear there.  So I'm puzzled by the

16     heading of these paragraphs.  "Marking of apartments" and burning of

17     candles."  Do you have an explanation of how that relates to what I read

18     in paragraphs 7 to 11?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's very simple.  The

20     settlement where I lived, it was a military neighbourhood in Zagreb, and

21     I'm talking about other areas as well of the Republic of Croatia where

22     the units of the JNA were located.  The apartments of Serb and other

23     people who did not belong to the Croat ethnic group in order to know

24     exactly who was where - and I'm noting that this was after the first

25     multi-party elections in Croatia - there was a great deal of dislike

Page 35281

 1     against members of the JNA.  For example, in Slovenia, they experienced

 2     the JNA as an occupation army and they never agreed with --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  So I do understand

 4     that you could have made any factual observations about what happened at

 5     a certain period of time, at a certain place about marking of apartments

 6     and burning of candles, though you didn't do it in your statement.  If

 7     that is what you're telling me, then it is at least clear.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to

 9     emphasise once again.  All members of the former -- okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not seeking that.  I'm just establishing that

11     what you could have said about marking of apartments and burning of

12     candles in factual terms, that it is not there in paragraphs 7 to 11.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me, I just wanted to

14     look at the statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Now, Mr. Lukic, I take it that this same thought would have come

17     to the mind of the person who added or made these titles.  You're

18     presenting the statement.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Can I try to further clarify but shortly?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well clarify --

21             MR. LUKIC:  We can work without the title -- without that title.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me --

23             Did you ask this title to be put there, Witness, "marking of

24     apartments and burning of candles"?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my conversation and

Page 35282

 1     during the proofing, I stated the activities that happened in 1991

 2     chronologically.  One of those activities that I and my family and my

 3     colleagues experienced was that.  And I can just give you one case that

 4     was the most striking example in 1991 -- okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I now understand that it has been subject during

 6     your conversations, that it appears in a title but that no factual

 7     information about such things happening appears in the statement.

 8             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we will probably upload redacted version

10     without this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course not.  It's not -- I'm not a

12     bureaucrat.  I'm someone who tries to understand what is presented to

13     him, and I now understand that the title is totally misplaced there, and

14     I would have expected the Defence, who presents such a statement, to find

15     that out if it takes me just three minutes to find that out.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the first page on our screens, please.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman, if you would, please, concentrate on

21     the questions and answer the questions.

22             On the first page, do you see the signature, do you recognise the

23     signature on the document?

24        A.   Yes, I see it, Mr. Lukic, it's my signature.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the last page on the same document,

Page 35283

 1     please, in both versions.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] And do you see the signature on the last page,

 3     Mr. Kecman, and do you recognise it?

 4        A.   Yes, I see it, Mr. Lukic, that is also my signature.

 5        Q.   Other than the heading that we just looked at and that it does

 6     not comport with the rest of the statement, is the rest of the statement

 7     correctly recorded based on what you told the Defence of General Mladic?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, I believe that everything that I had read is correct.

 9     Perhaps I would not be able to repeat it word by word 100 per cent, but

10     90 per cent plus I could say the same things again in response to those

11     questions.

12        Q.   Just to make it clear why I'm waiting after you finish answering

13     your question, I'm waiting in order for the interpretation to be complete

14     before I start putting my next question to you.

15             And is what is recorded in this statement true, according to your

16     best recollection?

17        A.   Everything that I said I stand by.  I stand by everything that is

18     in the statement.

19        Q.   Although you have already partly answered my next question, let

20     me put that question to you again.

21             If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

22     answer be the same?

23        A.   As I've already told you, Mr. Lukic, 99 per cent of that would be

24     the same.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender the statement of

Page 35284

 1     Mr. Kecman.

 2             MR. WEBER:  No objections, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1047, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1047 is admitted.

 6             Mr. Kecman, we take a break.  We would like to see you back in 20

 7     minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

13     into the courtroom.

14             Mr. Lukic, when I drew your attention to this title, I think a

15     simple observation that it was a mistake that it was part of the

16     discussion but that the issue didn't end up in the statement would have

17     simplified the matters very much.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I agree, Your Honour.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Mr. Ivetic isn't here

20     but I just wanted to assure the Court that we're not changing our

21     position regarding the agreement of the Mladic whereabouts, and nothing

22     in my question inferred otherwise.  But just so everyone is comfortable

23     on that point.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I wasn't part of that discussion, but I was told

25     something by Mr. Miletic -- Ivetic, so I don't know whether disagreement

Page 35285

 1     encompasses nights between 14 and 15 and 15th and 16, as Mr. Mladic was

 2     in Belgrade or not.  And I think it's helpful for the Chambers and us to

 3     know.  Our understanding is that it does; but if it does not, if the

 4     position of the Prosecution is that it does not, then we'll have to

 5     proceed differently than we planned.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think the first and most important thing is

 7     that Mr. McCloskey explains to the Defence, not in court, why he

 8     considers his line of questioning not to deviate from the agreed

 9     position.  And if then anything remains, then of course -- then at a

10     later time, we'll hear from you.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kecman, we'll continue.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would read a statement summary of

15     Mr. Kecman now, and then with your leave, I would have some questions for

16     this witness as well.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do as you suggest.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             Mr. Janko Kecman is a retired air force colonel.  Upon completion

20     of the military academy holding the rank of second lieutenant, he went to

21     Zagreb and started working at the Pleso airport with the helicopter

22     squadron for anti-armour combat.

23             The unit was of mixed ethnic composition.  He lived in Zagreb in

24     the settlement where almost all the pilots of his squadron lived.  He

25     remembers when HDZ members blocked his settlement using trucks loaded

Page 35286

 1     with sand.

 2             In March 1991, after the conflict at Plitvice, helicopters from

 3     his 111th Aviation Brigade were sent to transport their wounded.  After

 4     this conflict, the siege and blockade of the Pleso airport commenced.

 5             His squadron transported customs officers who were to take over

 6     the border crossings in Slovenia.  After the helicopters with customs

 7     officers landed, the Slovenian Territorial Defence immediately captured

 8     them and put them in refrigerator trucks.

 9             First JNA helicopter was shot down in Slovenia above the place

10     called Ig.  Mr. Kecman took part in the transfer of the squadron to

11     Bihac, B&H.  On the 13th of December, 1991, Mr. Kecman was shot down for

12     the first time in Mackovac village in Western Slavonia.  He was attacked

13     from the tower of a Catholic church.  He did not want to shoot at the

14     church although he had information that Croatian forces were attacking

15     from there.

16             He knows that the Muslim-Croat helicopters flew the whole time

17     during the war, 1992 to 1995.  They were stationed at the safe area of

18     Bihac and the safe area of Sarajevo.  They used helicopters throughout

19     the war to supply their forces in the safe areas, especially those of

20     Bihac and Srebrenica, with combat equipment.

21             In addition to using helicopters, Muslim forces also used AN-26

22     transportation planes for supply purposes and those planes would land at

23     the Coralici airport.

24             That was statement summary and I would now proceed with the

25     questions.

Page 35287

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman, what do you know about the illegal

 2     arming in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, when did that start,

 3     and who was it who engaged in those activities?

 4        A.   As I've already told you, Mr. Lukic, that started in 1990 and

 5     1991 and then throughout the war until 1995.

 6             How can I endorse my statement?  When members of other ethnic

 7     groups left the ranks of the JNA, most of them took weapons with them.

 8             Secondly, a lot of the weapons was stolen from our unit.

 9             Thirdly, we are aware of the Spegelj case.  The Croatian guards

10     were being armed and the case was widely publicised in the media.  And

11     then the supply also went by air, not only by land routes --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm going to stop you there.

13             Mr. Lukic, apparently you are eliciting sweeping statements.

14     Those were armed during the whole of the war.  Please ask the witness

15     about what he observed, specific knowledge on matters he saw, he heard,

16     rather than tell us what you know about, and then we get sweeping

17     statements and references to what everyone knows.  That's not assisting

18     the Chamber.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Kecman, as I have asked you, what do you personally know

22     about the arming of Muslim and Croatian sides?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, let me tell you very concretely.  When the Ugandan

24     plane landed bringing Kikas at Zagreb airport, I was there.  I was

25     present when everything that was on that aircraft was being evacuated to

Page 35288

 1     Bihac airport.  I can tell you how many sorties we had with transport

 2     helicopters to evacuate all that.  We flew 14 times to carry military

 3     equipment, weapons, and everything else that is needed by armed forces.

 4     If we follow a chronology, if needed, of course, I can give you the

 5     dates, I can give you the years.  I'm here, I can tell you all that.

 6     Please ask me.

 7             I see that I didn't finish my answer.  I'm talking about

 8     protected areas.  I know about helicopter sorties and I know about

 9     aircraft sorties, sorties of transport aircrafts that flew in the

10     direction of protected areas --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, Witness, you really should slow down.

12     Otherwise the interpreters are unable to tell us.

13             Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just raise to express the concern.  I

15     see that the witness is mentioning multiple different possible events

16     within the course of a given answer, and I know the questions are broad.

17     But if we could have some coherence to the transcript that we create and

18     at least have a date or some type of context reference so we can proceed

19     logically through some events.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, if --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please try to get to facts rather than, again, to

23     what did you see, when did you see it, what's your source of knowledge,

24     what was it exactly, where was it exactly, that's what we need, not:

25     People were armed over five years.

Page 35289

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Give us some concrete examples, please.  What

 4     did you see yourself?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.  I'm talking about the month of August 1991.  I'm

 6     talking about the transport plane known as Kikas Boeing 707.  When all

 7     these activities started when the Army of Republika Srpska was

 8     established --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  You want to talk about the

10     month of August 1991.  What and where did you see, hear, anything you

11     want to tell us.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my testimony may not

13     be within the context of other testimonies.  As a pilot, in the course of

14     our day, I could and I indeed did fly thousands of miles --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But I want to know on what mile you saw what, rather

16     than to hear that you flew thousands of miles.

17             What happened in August 1991?  And apparently you are talking

18     about a transport plane known as Kikas.  Now what would you like to tell

19     us?  A specific event.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What happened, first of all?  Do you remember what

22     date it was in August?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't remember the

24     exact date.  I can be mistaken by a day.  I know that it was in August

25     1991.

Page 35290

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I stop you there.  Where were you when you

 2     saw or heard anything that is relevant for us?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was by that plane, by the Kikas

 4     plane, at Pleso airport.  And I also went to Zeljevo airport where all

 5     the equipment was offloaded.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you see when you were near that plane which

 7     is relevant for us to know or what did you hear?  Or what did you

 8     observe?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the plane was full of

10     weapons, rifles, there was a lot of equipment, not just weapons but also

11     other military equipment could be seen in that plane.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  To whom belonged that plane?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Ugandan, owned by a Ugandan

14     company.  It was hired by merchants of arms who smuggled weapons for the

15     Army of the Republic of Croatia.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it was a Ugandan plane which was involved

17     in smuggling weapons.

18             How did you see that there were arms on that plane?  Did you go

19     into that plane?  Did you saw them unload it?  What did you see?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I entered the plane

21     several times.  Not only then but also later when that same aircraft

22     carried thousands of people to Belgrade --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The Judge is asking you about weapons.  Forget people.  Please

25     answer the Judge's question.

Page 35291

 1        A.   Yes, I saw the weapons because we opened the crates where those

 2     weapons were, and my colleagues would take a rifle or two as a souvenir

 3     to remind of that contingent of weapons.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I leave it in your hands, but this is the

 5     way in which it makes sense to elicit evidence from a witness so as if he

 6     says it was a company involved in smuggling, what was that company, how

 7     does he know all that, in what capacity was he entering that plane.

 8     That's what we would like to hear what he can tell us.

 9             Please proceed and keep it strict.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for clarification.

12             Witness, could you please tell us who are the "we" who opened

13     crates?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, Your Honours.  The pilots

15     who transported the contingent from the helicopter to Bihac airport.

16     Members of helicopter crews that transported all that, the whole

17     contingent.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you could also try to find out where Pleso

19     airport exactly is.  Is that -- but, Mr. Lukic, I think I've been clear

20     enough on what would assist us.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Kecman, could you please tell us where Pleso airport is.

23        A.   The Pleso airport is about 10 kilometres away from Zagreb, the

24     capital of the Republic of Croatia.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And what do you know, which company, which person was

Page 35292

 1     involved in the smuggling of the weaponry, what do you know about that?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, somewhere in my papers --

 3        Q.   Just give us the name, please.  We're not going to have enough

 4     time to do anything.  Just answer the question, please.  Who was involved

 5     in the smuggling of the weapons?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, I cannot remember now what the name of the person is,

 7     but I can very easily get that information.  You can look on the

 8     internet.  I mean, I can provide that information for you very quickly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this Chamber usually does not find its

10     evidence on the internet, although it's not for the full hundred per cent

11     excluded.  If you don't know the name, just tell us:  I don't know the

12     name.  That's sufficient.  Do you remember the name of the company that

13     was involved, because you referred to a company?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the sign on the plane

15     indicates clearly where it was from.  I was next to the plane, I could

16     see that.  On the other hand, I could see the content of the cargo there.

17     And the third thing -- okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm stopping you again.  You were talking about a

19     company involved in smuggling.  Now, an air carrier is not necessarily in

20     control of what is onboard of a plane.  What's the name of the air

21     carrier, what name was found on the plane, if you remember?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge about who had control over

24     the cargo in that plane, who ordered it to be transported?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm saying - and I hope that

Page 35293

 1     I was clear in my previous answers - the weapons were intended for the

 2     armed forces of the Republic of Croatia --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you continue not to answer questions

 4     but, rather, tell us what you consider important, then we have to --

 5     sooner or later, we have to stop you and then we have to establish that

 6     you're not answering our questions.

 7             My question was:  You earlier referred to a company involved in

 8     smuggling.  Do you know which company was responsible for the cargo in

 9     the plane, if you know?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We give it another try, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   How do you know, Mr. Kecman, that the weapons were intended for

14     the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia?

15        A.   How do I know that?  You could see from the documents that were

16     in the airplane, and you could see in the papers it was stated who the

17     person or the ordering party was and to whom the contingent should be

18     delivered.  And that information was there, it existed.

19        Q.   And another part of the question put to you by Judge Orie.  In

20     what capacity did you enter the plane?

21        A.   We waited for the goods to be unloaded from the plane and into

22     the helicopter, so it was our task as the crew to wait and wait until the

23     plane was unloaded.  That was not our job.  We were supposed to take over

24     and fly the plane so we did not get involved in the unloading part.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question has not been answered, Mr. Lukic.

Page 35294

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In what capacity, what was your function, when you were present

 3     at that place?

 4        A.   I was a member of the crew.

 5        Q.   And who sent you there or were you already there?

 6        A.   The assignment were -- was received from our superior command.

 7     We received the assignment to transport the cargo from Pleso airport to

 8     Zeljeve [phoen] airport.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're talking about being a member of the crew,

10     a crew of the plane or a crew of the helicopter?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Mi8 helicopter crew.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand that you were expected to wait

13     until the cargo from the plane was loaded into the helicopter and that

14     you would then transport it any further?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you earlier told us that the documents in the

17     plane revealed the ordering party and to whom the contingent should be

18     delivered.  Who was the ordering party?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.  We,

20     as pilots, did not have any insight as to who issued the order for the

21     transport.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but you said you could see in the papers it was

23     stated who the person or the ordering party was.

24             Now, what's the name of the person or what's the name of the

25     ordering party as you saw it in the documents?

Page 35295

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall the name of the

 2     person, but as for the name of the party -- yes, go ahead.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please tell us what the name of the party is.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the party was the

 5     Republic of Croatia.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what did the paper say as to whom the

 7     contingent should be delivered?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these were bills of

 9     lading, so the cargo that was being shipped, it was irrelevant.  It had

10     its accompanying documents, and the technician would receive the cargo.

11     The bill of lading would accompany the shipment from the place of loading

12     to the place of unloading.  That was not part of our job.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You said that you could see in the papers to whom

14     the contingent should be delivered.  Did you intend to say that is what

15     you can see in these kind of papers or did you intend to say that you saw

16     it in those papers?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, how can I explain that

18     to you?  We were not there alone.  It was not just us, the crew.  There

19     was a large number of people around the plane, there were people from

20     security, number one --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.  What did you see?  Did you have a

22     look at those papers or did you not have a look at those papers?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not look at the bills of

24     lading, but I looked at the documentation about the plane, which I was

25     interested in because it's my profession, isn't it?

Page 35296

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Next question:  How then, as you explained

 2     earlier, could you tell us that the cargo was -- that the Croatian

 3     government was the ordering party if you didn't have a look at those

 4     papers?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we're human and so there were

 6     a number of people moving around that live organism.  My colleagues were

 7     there who saw the papers, and we discussed those documents and the bills

 8     of lading and the accompanying documentation as well as the cargo itself.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you didn't see those papers?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.  Let's give it another

12     try and let's get to facts rather than anything else.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Kecman, you mentioned it but it wasn't recorded in the

15     transcript.  What kind of guns did you see in that transport?

16        A.   There were SRP66 [as interpreted] rifles on the transport.

17        Q.   Could you please repeat that once again slowly.  I think it was

18     not recorded properly in the transcript, slowly.

19        A.   The rifles were SAR-56 millimetre calibre.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I have to correct now; it would take too much time.

21     It's 5.56.  56 millimetres cannot be a gun, a hand-held gun, it would be

22     a cannon.

23             MR. WEBER:  I appreciate Mr. Lukic's deduction --

24             MR. LUKIC:  That's what the witness said.

25             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

Page 35297

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's just assume that's what the witness

 2     said, the whole relevance -- but apparently there were weapons and the

 3     witness has described them.  Let's move on.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Kecman, did the JNA have any guns of 5.56 millimetre calibre?

 6        A.   No, it did not, Mr. Lukic.

 7        Q.   And let us concentrate now.  Can you please tell us what you

 8     personally know about flights into the Bihac protected area in connection

 9     with weapons?

10        A.   Your Honour, since this is a broad topic --

11             MR. WEBER:  I was just going to raise just so we have some

12     context when.  I have no problem with Mr. Lukic somewhat directing the

13     witness to at least a year.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you answer the question, could you at

15     least indicate what year you're talking about.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can.  We're going to

17     talk about 1992 from the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska on

18     the 12th of May, 1992, then until the end of the war.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak a

20     little bit farther away from the microphone.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now you are invited not to come too close to

22     the microphone if you speak.

23             Tell us, Witness, answer the question now that was put to you:

24     What you personally know about flights into the Bihac protected area in

25     connection with weapons?  And you'll now focus on 1992 after the 12th of

Page 35298

 1     May.  And, again, give us facts.

 2             You may answer the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that period, 1992,

 4     I was a member of the Army of the Serbian Krajina as commander of the

 5     helicopter squadron at the Udbina airport.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you please tell us where Udbina is?

 8        A.   The Udbina airport is located north of the town of Knin, some 70

 9     to 80 kilometres away from that town and in the area of the Plitvice

10     lakes.

11        Q.   And what did you see in 1992?

12        A.   Since we had the option to fly in the area of the Republic of the

13     Serbian Krajina in 1992, the no-fly zone did not apply to the Republic of

14     the Serbian Krajina, but as of the 1st of August, 1992, it applied only

15     to Republika Srpska.  So we pilots who flew in the Republic of the

16     Serbian Krajina had the option of carrying out our flights without having

17     to announce them in advance to the SFOR in that area.  The area covered

18     the Zemunik airport, included Knin, and to the north through Lika, Banja

19     and Kordun, and Western Slavonia and eastern Slavonia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now go back to the question.  What did you see

21     regarding the flights that had weapons in the direction of Bihac?

22        A.   Well, our information is -- and I have to just say something to

23     you.  The army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and of Republika Srpska

24     had eyes and ears, and I am saying this because we had radar positions at

25     the most prominent --

Page 35299

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear the evidence of those eyes and ears.

 2     What we're interested in at this moment is your eyes and your ears.

 3             Could you tell us what you saw in relation, that's to start with,

 4     that is shipping weapons in the direction of Bihac.  What did you see?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it was the period from 1992.

 6     Now I'm going to tell you specifically.  So the first activity when the

 7     plane of the B&H army was downed in the area of Bihac, we can say that

 8     that specifically happened on the 7th of May, 1994.  And then on the

 9     28th, I'm talking about --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you there.  We take it step by step.

11             Apparently you are telling us that there was a plane of the B&H

12     army was downed in the area of Bihac on the 7th of May.  What did you

13     see?  What did you observe in relation to that?  Where were you?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the area and I can tell

15     you the following:  We had intelligence data that the Army of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina was supplying itself from the Zagreb logistics base --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll come to that later.  First I'd like

18     to know what did you observe yourself ?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I as the commander

20     of the squadron did not only deal with flight matters.  I was also

21     involved in other intelligence tasks because I wanted to create

22     conditions for my unit also to fly safely in that area --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you first answer my question.  What

24     did you observe yourself in relation to that plane of the BH Army which

25     was downed?

Page 35300

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not talking about this first

 2     supposition, I'm not talking about the plane, I'm talking about the Mi17

 3     helicopter in our --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm asking you about the plane.  You

 5     started your answer by saying the first activity -- when the plane of the

 6     BH Army was downed in the area.  Do you say you have no personal -- you

 7     didn't personally observe anything of that and that you only could tell

 8     us about what you did after that?  Is that what you intend to tell us?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I want to give

10     you a chronology.  I want to give you all of the activities to make it

11     possible for you to understand about the situation on the ground.

12             Under one, I would like to say there was --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Witness.  I can imagine what your -- the purpose

14     is.  What we have on our mind is that we expect you to answer the

15     questions.  You were talking about the shipment of weapons, and you

16     started telling us about a plane which was downed on the 7th of May.

17     What we're interested in is what do you know by personal observation

18     about that event?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Bear with me.  I'm

20     talking about a helicopter.  I was standing next to it.  It was downed in

21     the area of Slunj flying from Cetina to Zagreb.  That plane was downed by

22     our units.  It was not a plane, it was a helicopter.  I apologise.  The

23     minister of foreign affairs, Mr. Ljubijankic, was on that helicopter.

24     Beside that, for months we were engaged in --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are telling what happened.  And what

Page 35301

 1     I'm interested in is what you observed yourself.

 2             But Mr. Weber was on his feet.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just want to put on the record that

 4     I'm lost.  We've shifted between planes, now helicopters, dates,

 5     locations, area of Bihac.  So I just want to put that on the record.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Mr. Lukic, apparently we moved -- unless this helicopter was on

 8     its way to Bihac, but we are in Slunj at this moment, if I understand the

 9     witness well.  I try hard.

10             MR. LUKIC:  We all do.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I give you another chance to do it.

12             But please, Witness, listen to the question.  Answer the

13     question.  Apparently there's something about a helicopter, not a plane,

14     which was downed on the 7th of May which you link to transportation of

15     weapons, although you now tell us that someone was on board.  Let's take

16     it step by step and just focus on what you know, how you know it, what

17     you did see.

18             Mr. Lukic, I give you another chance.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I will try again.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman, I have to tell you one thing.  You

21     don't understand our environment at all.  If you don't answer my

22     question, your answer doesn't count at all.  If I ask you about Bihac and

23     then you start talking about Tuzla, it doesn't count.  If I ask you about

24     sorties of planes carrying weapons into Bihac protected area, I need you

25     to tell me about Bihac.  Please focus.  I don't know whether it's me or

Page 35302

 1     what.

 2             What did you tell us about Slunj?  What kind of plane?  And

 3     please make a distinction.  I saw this, I heard this as a commander, this

 4     was intelligence I received.  It doesn't really matter whether you saw

 5     things personally or not, but you have to give us the source of your

 6     intelligence or information.

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, I am talking about the supply of weapons to Bihac

 8     incurred using both aircraft and helicopter.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Tell us about planes, about aircraft.

10        A.   Okay, aircraft.

11        Q.   Yes, aircraft.

12        A.   Aircraft that were used to supply the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     more specifically Bihac pocket, were aircraft AM 26, property of Ukraine,

14     with Ukrainian crews.

15        Q.   Among those Ukrainians, was there anybody else, and in what

16     capacity, do you know and how do you know it?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.  Apart from Ukrainian crews, there were also

18     pilots of BiH army.  They were the ones who were crew leaders because

19     they were more familiar with the area, they were more familiar with the

20     circumstances, and they could communicate with the people on the ground.

21        Q.   What is the source of that information?  How do you know that

22     crew members were also members or pilots of the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina who flew together with Ukrainians?

24        A.   This is how it is -- it was, Mr. Lukic:  A plane was downed after

25     having air-dropped material in the area of Coralic, north-west of Bihac.

Page 35303

 1     It was an auxiliary airport.  On the way back, after having air-dropped

 2     its cargo, one of the aircraft was hit by our [indiscernible] rocket and

 3     that aircraft fell in Plasko area in the territory of the Republic of

 4     Serbian Krajina.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we still do not know how you knew that crew

 6     members were also pilots of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina because

 7     that was the question.  How did you know that apart from the Ukrainian

 8     crew there were also pilots of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 9     Please tell us.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we carried out an

11     investigation about downing of that aircraft.  I was a member of that

12     team.  I was at the place where the aircraft had fallen.  We found

13     complete documentation pertaining to the aircraft as well as the pilot's

14     documents.  The pilot who belonged to the BiH army.  We did not find any

15     documents on his body.  We collected all those bodies into a body-bag, as

16     it were, and we took them to Knin --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Take it step by step again.  Apparently you found at

18     the place where the plane was downed, you found bodily remains.  You put

19     them in a body-bag.

20             Now, next question is:  When and how was that person, which as

21     you told us did not have any documents on himself, how was that person

22     identified?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, Mr. President,

24     this is what it was all about.  Knowing that the crews were Ukrainian, we

25     handed the bodies over to --

Page 35304

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, I stop you -- stop --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me, allow me.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm not allowing you to again and again move

 4     away from the question.

 5             Who identified the bodies you were talking about?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bodies were identified in Knin

 7     by medical experts.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what was the method used?  Was it by DNA?

 9     Was it -- how was it done and is there any report about that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what method was used.

11     I'm not a professional of that kind.  We were an investigation team, and

12     we reported to the command about what we had found there on the spot.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that person of whom the bodily remains were

14     found, was that person identified by name?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  He was a pilot

16     and, if I'm not mistaken, his name was Samir Begic and he was from Cazin.

17     Two years ago, two years ago, his brother turned to me with a request to

18     tell him what had happened to his brother's bodily remains.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Lukic, you now take the witness back to

20     the relation between where the arms apparently had been dropped, how it

21     could still be established that the arms were transported by that plane.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kecman, you heard Judge Orie's question and what is important

24     for this case.  What is your knowledge?  How was it established that the

25     weapons were transported by that plane if the weapons had already been

Page 35305

 1     dropped from the plane --

 2        A.   And I'm putting another question --

 3        Q.   No, you cannot be putting questions.  All you can do is give

 4     answers.

 5             So what is your knowledge?  Do you have personal knowledge,

 6     intelligence, did you read it in the papers?  Just tell us your source of

 7     knowledge.

 8        A.   It was on the basis of intelligence that we had that we knew that

 9     the flights were originating from Krk airport towards the Coralici

10     protected area and then from then on to the airport Pleso in Zagreb and

11     the other way around.

12        Q.   And when you say "intelligence," are you able to be more

13     specific?  Was that your intelligence organ or the organ of another unit?

14     How did that work?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, I wanted to say earlier that as part of the

16     republic -- of the Serbian Krajina air force, there was a battalion that

17     had a number of radars, and so thanks to those radars we had a complete

18     overview of all the flights.  And our units in the field observed that

19     flight, they saw it, and that flight was unannounced.  And for that

20     reason, ambushes were set up in those areas.  This is one of the usual

21     tactics that is applied in situations like that.

22        Q.   You say "unannounced."  Were there any announced flights and how

23     did you react in such situations?

24        A.   We're going back to what has already been said.  What is this all

25     about?  A number of flights - I'm now speaking about the Army of the

Page 35306

 1     Republic of the Krajina that we were conducting, we had to announce

 2     flights going to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  We also had to

 3     announce all flights to Banja Luka.  We could not venture past

 4     Banja Luka.  We would announce those flights one week ahead, and then

 5     SFOR forces would monitor those flights upon departure and arrival.  So

 6     they monitored everything that we were doing.  The pilot had to have a

 7     checklist of all the passengers and the cargo that he was transporting.

 8        Q.   Now we're talking about flights of the Army of the Republic of

 9     the Serbian Krajina.  I wanted to ask you about the flights that were

10     announced, the flights of the other side.  How did you monitor UNPROFOR

11     flights, for example?  Could you tell us who announced which flights to

12     whom?

13        A.   Again we are going to go back.  We had an overview, complete

14     overview, of the situation in the air.  We had radar overview.  All of

15     our commands, including our commander, had a complete picture in his

16     operations centre, so we could monitor from the operations centre the

17     entire situation in the air-space.

18        Q.   We're lay-people so you have to understand that, so we need

19     explanations for those technical things.  How did you differentiate

20     between an UNPROFOR flight and an unannounced flight that was carrying

21     weapons, for example?

22        A.   Let me explain.  Each aircraft has its identifier and that shows

23     up on the radar screen on the monitor.  The markings are seen so we knew

24     which NATO flights there were.  So in the course of four years, we even

25     got to know the crews of the flights.  We had so much experience that we

Page 35307

 1     knew which pilot was flying in which sector, were they pilots from Aviano

 2     [phoen], I mean, we had all this intelligence available.  And just by

 3     looking at the radar screens, we would get that information.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.

 5             Mr. Witness, you were talking about investigation.  Has an

 6     investigative report been produced?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That report was

 8     submitted to the command of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.

 9             Let me just add to this.  Since the aircraft had fallen in the

10     area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it might save us a lot of trouble by

12     looking at such a report rather than -- apart from relevance at this

13     moment, whether it's -- that still escapes, to some extent, our minds,

14     and I'm speaking not only on behalf of myself.  Yes.

15             Would Mr. Mladic refrain from communicating with the public

16     gallery.  If you would turn to this Bench, Mr. Mladic, then you would

17     have the right focus because it's happening here.

18             Mr. Lukic, again relevance.  I do not know, but it might give us

19     facts.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Kecman, what happened to the bodily remains of the pilots

22     that had died in the crash?  What do you know about that?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, the -- those bodily remains were put in a tin casket

24     and then Mr. Sabosa [phoen] would arrange for their transport to

25     Belgrade, where they were handed over to the embassy of Ukraine.  Because

Page 35308

 1     we had realised that those were citizens of Ukraine.  At that moment, we

 2     were not aware of the fact that among those bodies, there were also

 3     bodily remains of the other pilot whom I mentioned previously, the one

 4     from Cazin.  And then the embassy of Ukraine did not want to take over

 5     the casket.  And then Mr. Savo Strbac arranged the burial of those bodily

 6     remains in the cemetery in Novi Belgrade.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's break time or you want to add something,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is.  But I would have one other question.

10             You said at that time you were not aware of the fact that among

11     those bodies there were also bodily remains of the other pilot.  You told

12     us a minute ago that the bodily remains of that pilot had been

13     identified.  So it's difficult for us to understand why you were not

14     aware that the bodily remains of that pilot were among those where it had

15     been identified, if I understand you well.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I told you that we

17     did not find any documents belonging to the Muslim pilot who was on that

18     aircraft.  We only found documents belonging to the Ukrainian pilots.

19     Only later when the family approached us did we realise that it was

20     common practice for those flights to include a pilot of the BiH army

21     among crew members.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's another sweeping statement, but do I

23     understand that it was only after you had offered the bodily remains to

24     be given to the Ukrainian representative, that only after that the

25     identification of that one Bosnian pilot took place?

Page 35309

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Bosnian pilot was identified

 2     when the family addressed the BiH army and all other people of good will

 3     to have the bodily remains back so that the family could bury its member

 4     with dignity.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And when was that, that it was identified?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was in 2012.  The

 7     fallen pilot's brother approached me personally to inquire about the

 8     situation on the ground that I had eye-witnessed at the time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It was relatively recently.

10             You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in 20

11     minutes, Mr. Kecman.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I leave it, to some extent, in your hands

14     how to proceed, but the witness is apparently unable to suppress his

15     inclination to deal with matters which were not asked.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I was facing the same problem a couple of last days.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, I understand that.  Nevertheless, you

18     should either elicit useful evidence from this witness or give it up and

19     then we'll have what we have, and Mr. Weber will cross-examine the

20     witness and may face similar problems.

21             How much time do you think you would need?  And I earlier already

22     hinted that the relevance is not immediately apparently to the Judges.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I think you can expect that I'm just at the beginning

24     of my questions but I'll try to condense them --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Otherwise you have to accept that the witness you

Page 35310

 1     called and the witness that was interviewed before, that he acts as he

 2     does.  I mean, you were the only one who could foresee this.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Not since couple of days ago, Your Honour.  I never

 4     saw him before.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well -- yes, you didn't see him, but I'm talking

 6     about the Defence.  That includes your team members that should have

 7     warned you perhaps about -- and, again, try to find what really is

 8     relevant.  A lot may not be relevant.  But whatever happens, facts,

 9     nothing else.

10             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you have an opportunity to try to get

14     some useful evidence from this witness and --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you should focus at concluding that at quarter

17     past 2.00, focusing on the most relevant parts first.  And if it

18     continues to be the same as it was, then I would not further insist --

19     again, if this was about one of the core issues of the case, then it

20     might have been different.  But it seems, to some extent, at least some

21     of the evidence rather in the margin than the core of the case.

22             Please keep that in mind and try to conclude by quarter

23     past 2.00.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I will need -- oh, but there is no usher.  I want to

25     call D1047 so we have it on our screens.  I'll go through perhaps -- I'll

Page 35311

 1     ask for some clarifications from the statement.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kecman, try to carefully listen to the questions

 4     and try to focus your answer exclusively on what is asked.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman, we have to finish by 2.15 today; our

 8     part of this conversation, I mean.

 9             Please look at your statement and find paragraph 7 in it.  It's

10     on page 3.  In paragraph 7, you mention that your helicopters were sent

11     to transport the wounded after the conflict at Plitvice.  What was the

12     ethnicity of those whom you transported?

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, that was in March 1991, the conflict at Plitvice.

14     There were a lot of wounded, a lot of dead as well --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what ethnicity those you transported?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean what ethnicity were the

17     wounded?  The wounded were both Croats, Muslims, and Serbs.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

20        Q.   You have just told us who the wounded were.  Whom did you

21     transport?  Did you transport all the three ethnic groups?

22        A.   Yes, all the three ethnic groups were transported.

23        Q.   Just a moment.  Where did you transport them?

24        A.   The wounded were transported to the military hospital in Zagreb.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be instructed not to

Page 35312

 1     come so close to the microphone.  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Very well.  When they arrived at the military hospital in Zagreb,

 4     what happened to the wounded?

 5        A.   Let me explain my role first.  We used our combat helicopters --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Answer the question, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

 8             One helicopter landed.  There were Croatian guards members in it

 9     and that helicopter landed at the military hospital.  The next helicopter

10     flew over and went to Kerestinac, and Kerestinac is a prison on the

11     periphery of Zagreb.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was:  What happened to the wounded

13     when they arrived in Zagreb?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very simple.  One group of the

15     wounded belonging to the Croatian guards stayed at the military hospital

16     in Zagreb, whereas Serbs from Plitvice were taken to Kerestinac.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Muslims?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The Judge Moloto is asking about Muslims.

20        A.   Let me just tell you, the MUP of the Republic of Croatia had a

21     special unit whose members were also Muslims.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But we still --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- don't know what happened to the Muslims --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- the wounded Muslims.

Page 35313

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They stayed together with the

 2     Croats in the military hospital in Zagreb.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  All right.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   How come that the Serbs ended up in the prison, that they were

 6     wounded and they were not left in the hospital?

 7        A.   Both transport helicopters landed in front of the hospital and

 8     the personnel that received the wounded, they received the wounded Croats

 9     like I just told you, whereas the other helicopter was sent in the

10     direction of Kerestinac.

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 11 in your statement, please.

15             In paragraph 9, you're talking about the National Guard Corps,

16     and then in paragraph 11 you say that there were many Muslims from

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina in [indiscernible] as well as Siptars from Kosovo.

18     How do you know?  Can you tell us something about the security provided

19     for the airport, what did you see there?

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, my unit, the entire helicopter squadron, was based at

21     Lucko airport which is north-west of the city of Zagreb.  We shared the

22     Heliodrom with the MUP, with the helicopter unit of the Croatian MUP.

23     Since our perimeter was the same, we often met each other.  We flew

24     together in co-ordinated sorties, and we observed a large number of new

25     men who provided security for that Heliodrom.

Page 35314

 1             Secondly, coming to work and going back home, we noticed new

 2     police officers who were not there before.  They were members of the

 3     National Guard Corps.  They would stop us every day.  They ill-treated

 4     us.  We asked for things that they never -- that they had never asked for

 5     before.  All that created a negative impact between the members of the

 6     military and the National Guard Corps.  The senior members of National

 7     Guards Corps, i.e., senior officers, were very fair so we often went to

 8     see them to insist on them protecting us.  We were wanting to know who

 9     these newcomers were and why they were treating us the way they did --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us how you knew that they were

11     Siptars, because you've now talked a whole page about all kind of things,

12     but not a clue yet to how did you know that there were many Siptars among

13     them?

14             MR. WEBER:  Judge, I just raise -- just so there's clarity

15     that -- I mean, I know it's in the statement, but the word "Siptar" being

16     referred to, I know has different views by different maybe ethnicity --

17     based on the ethnicity --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. WEBER:  -- of the person, it's referring to ethnic Albanian

20     in a certain context.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, if the witness wouldn't know what we

22     refer to when we were talking about Siptars, that's another matter.

23             Could you tell us, how did you know there were Siptars among

24     them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the building where I

Page 35315

 1     lived was 500 metres away from the Zagreb fairgrounds.

 2             Secondly, there was a National Guard Corps unit which had been

 3     recruited from all over the place, and there were people in that unit

 4     that they needed.

 5             Second of all, in my unit --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there again.  Did they tell you, did

 7     their colleagues tell you, or was there any other way you found out that

 8     they were Siptars?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw that.  I was among them.  I

10     socialised with them.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  That's a short answer.  We don't need a whole

12     page for that.  It was --

13             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Did a member of your unit transgressed, made a

16     breach of discipline with regard to that unit and men in that unit?

17        A.   One of our operatives whose name I can't remember was an

18     Albanian, he was a crew member in our unit.  Our security forces found

19     him red-handed in transporting people from Kosovo to Zagreb --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the year when that

21     happened.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the year when this happened.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 35316

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] And now paragraph 15, please, that's on the

 2     following page.  We can see here that an Mi8 helicopter with a mixed crew

 3     was shot down.  What happened to the crew when that happened?

 4        A.   Let me tell you what this is about.

 5        Q.   Just tell me what their lot was.

 6        A.   The crew were all killed because the helicopter exploded when it

 7     was air-borne.

 8        Q.   We have the rest of that in this paragraph.

 9             And now on to paragraph 17, please.  You say that MEDEVAC, Mrlak,

10     was shot down; he was a Slovenian.  What happened to him, what happened

11     to Mrlak after he was shot down?

12        A.   Mr. Mrlak was a commander in Ljubljana, in Slovenia, and his task

13     was to transport food for the units in the area.  A rocket was launched

14     at his helicopter.  The helicopter was downed and Mr. Mrlak got killed in

15     the accident.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any time-frame for that?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   When did that happen?

19        A.   That was in the month of June, around the 25th of June, 1991.

20        Q.   And now I'd like to ask you something about 1993 and 1994 and the

21     Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia.  What happened in 1993, something

22     that had to do with Bihac pocket and the Autonomous Region of

23     Western Bosnia?

24        A.   When we're talking about Bihac pocket, it was an enclave with

25     some 300.000 people living in it.  It was fully encircled.  On the north,

Page 35317

 1     there was Republic of Serbian Krajina, on the south and south-west of the

 2     area was Republika Srpska.  A conflict broke out in the enclave between

 3     members of the Bosnian people or Bosniak people in that area.  One group

 4     were supporters of Fikret Abdic and the others were members of the

 5     5th Corps led by General Ramiz Drekovic who was then succeeded by General

 6     Atif Dudakovic.  During that conflict, some of the population, women and

 7     children, fled to the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, to

 8     the towns of Glina, Petrinja, Vojnic, Virgin Most in the hope that the

 9     international community would provide them with an opportunity to cross

10     over Croatia and proceed towards Europe.  However, that did not

11     transpire, and the people stayed in the area for a long time.  There were

12     some 70- to 80.000 members of Fikret's supporters who had hailed from

13     that area.

14        Q.   When you say that they stayed longer, how long did they stay?

15     Five days?  Ten days?  Several months?

16        A.   Well, I could say it was a number of years.  All the buildings

17     that were abandoned at the time, people were looking for shelter, for a

18     roof over their heads.  So of all the population, the brunt of it was

19     borne by the people of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  You

20     understand.  So taking care of them, providing accommodation, food for

21     them, everything that was necessary for them to survive they had in the

22     area of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, all in the hope that they

23     would go to Europe.

24        Q.   These 70- to 80.000 Muslims, did anybody drive them out of the

25     Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

Page 35318

 1        A.   Nobody drove them out; however, they were trying to find a

 2     political solution, what to do with those people, where to accommodate

 3     them, because the authorities of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

 4     were -- they were becoming a burden to them in the economic sense.  They

 5     had to have clothing, accommodation, meals, everything that the people

 6     needed to survive that unfortunate time.

 7        Q.   We are now going back to the Bihac pocket again --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I see at page 80, line 16 the witness

 9     says there were some 70- to 80.000 members of Fikret's supporters, and

10     you're referring at page 81, line 3, to 70- to 80.000 Muslims.  Is this

11     one and the same thing or are you talking about a different topic?

12             MR. LUKIC:  We can ask the witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Since there was a little break there, I would also

15     add to it, the witness also mentioned the Autonomous Province of Western

16     Bosnia and also an area under the 5th Corps.  So I don't know if maybe it

17     needs clarifying where these 70- to 80.000 people are at.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic will, together with the witness, take care

19     of it.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Kecman, we know it, but for the purpose of the transcript we

22     may need to explain some things a little bit.

23             These 70- to 80.000 people, where did they come from and what

24     ethnicity were they?

25        A.   These 70- to 80.000 people that I refer to came from the area of

Page 35319

 1     the Cazin Krajina.  In the Cazin Krajina -- that is actually the Bihac

 2     pocket, that is where the Velika Kladusa area was.  It's a town in the

 3     pocket, so people were leaving that area where the conflict was raging.

 4     People were concerned, worried for their lives, and they were moving to

 5     the north --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, they came from the area of Cazin Krajina.

 7     What was their ethnicity?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were Muslims.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's exactly the answer to the question.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And were they supporters of Fikret, all of them?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   What was the name of the area that was established by

16     Fikret Abdic, was that the Bihac pocket, or was that the autonomous --

17        A.   It was a separate area within the Bihac pocket.  It was called

18     the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia.

19        Q.   And in the Bihac pocket, were there two components there?  Were

20     there Muslims there and Croats and what was their relationship?

21        A.   That's correct, Mr. Lukic.  In one part of it, in the area where

22     the airport was located, that's where the Croatian component was.  And

23     the commander in that area was General Santic.  It was a smaller group of

24     Croats that were part of the 5th Corps.  They waged war together.

25     Mr. Santic and later Budakovic with Republika Srpska Krajina --

Page 35320

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you again.  No one asked you about who was

 2     the commander and in what units they were.  I do understand from your

 3     answer that there were two components:  Muslims and Croats.  Could you

 4     tell us briefly about their relationship.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.  They

 6     co-operated, because they were in the same area, in the encirclement.

 7     They worked together in actions against the Serb forces.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Just so we don't have confusion, there's reference by

10     this witness to the JNA 5th Corps existing prior --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, well, well, he was not asked about that --

12             MR. WEBER:  Well, that's why I raised because I see that there's

13     reference on page 82, line 24, to the 5th Corps, and there's two

14     potential 5th Corps that this witness might be referring to, and I

15     believe it's one and not the other.  And I just --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  I understand it to be one.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep it short.  Mr. Lukic --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you want to rely ever on this reference to the

21     5th Corps, you should clarify it.  If you don't want to rely on it

22     ever --

23             MR. LUKIC:  And I thank my learned friend for drawing our

24     attention to it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

Page 35321

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Kecman, this 5th Corps that you referred to, is that the

 3     5th Corps of the JNA or the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina?

 5        A.   That is the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6     That's the one that I referred to just now.

 7        Q.   Were there any attempts at negotiations with the opposing side in

 8     the Bihac pocket that you are personally aware of?  And if yes, who took

 9     part in these negotiations?

10        A.   I can say that there were negotiations and General Ratko Mladic

11     went to attend one of those negotiations with both sides, the Muslim and

12     the Croat side.

13        Q.   And do you know what the outcome was of these negotiations?  How

14     did the Croatian component behave, what did they want, what was it that

15     they couldn't do?

16        A.   Based on information from the negotiations from the commanders

17     who took part personally -- but I didn't speak to any of them, we found

18     out that the Croat component wanted to pull out of the conflict.

19     However, they could not separate from the 5th Corps.  Why couldn't they

20     separate from the 5th Corps?  Simply, in the environs of Bihac there was

21     a Croat population there in Kamenica Kravlje.  There were women and

22     children there.  And then on the outskirts, on the lines of the front,

23     you had the HVO forces.  So even if they had agreed to pull out and not

24     to wage war against the Serbs, then their families would have problems

25     with the 5th Corps of the Bosnian army.

Page 35322

 1        Q.   Could you just please tell us how you know that General Mladic

 2     attended these negotiations?

 3        A.   Well, let me tell you, in that period I was in the area around

 4     Bihac, in the helicopters.  So in that period, it was not only myself but

 5     my colleagues who actually quite often transported General Mladic.  And

 6     we would meet every day practically with the security personnel.  I was

 7     ready in Ribic, it's a place close to those Croat lines, so I was there

 8     with the helicopter.  And we had information there, we had our medical

 9     corps there in case anything happened, God forbid, that we could quickly

10     intervene.

11        Q.   Did you ever personally transport General Mladic to these

12     negotiations?

13        A.   No, not to the negotiations, but I explained a little bit earlier

14     what my role and function was in those negotiations.

15        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Did you have information and, if you did,

16     could you please tell us the source of the information regarding the

17     transport of weaponry to Bihac by road.  Who took part in that?

18        A.   It's an interesting question and it boils down to this.  As the

19     war progressed during those years, the Bihac pocket was encircled so it

20     would be logical that in the Bihac [indiscernible] there would be

21     dwindling amounts of food and weaponry.  Unfortunately, it was quite the

22     opposite.  By receiving weapons and food in different ways, I explained

23     earlier that it came by plane and helicopter, a part of it also came over

24     by land.  Unfortunately, UNPROFOR units also had an dishonourable role in

25     all of this.

Page 35323

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, sorry I'm raising late, but it was a

 3     compound question.  I believe the witness actually didn't answer part of

 4     it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Parts of it he did --

 6             MR. WEBER:  But -- okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but not all of it.  And we'll leave it to

 8     Mr. Lukic whether he wants answers to the remainder part.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

10        Q.   Mr. Kecman, as my colleague Mr. Weber said, I asked you what your

11     sources of information were, if you can remember that today?

12        A.   The source of information -- I cannot give you a specific source

13     by first and last name now, but let me say that I am a pilot who

14     transported both the civilian and the military leadership.  The people

15     who were controlling that area, so they monitored the SFOR, and at

16     check-points they would find weapons with SFOR that was not part of their

17     regular equipment and kit.  And so that share of the weapons we knew who

18     that was intended for.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And this is what you learned from persons you

20     transported?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that in contacts with

22     people in the field.  I was present on a daily basis at one of the

23     commands that was in charge of a specific sector along the lines of

24     defence.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35324

 1        Q.   You said that it was known who the weapons were intended for.  We

 2     don't know until you tell us.

 3        A.   That's correct, Mr. Lukic.  The weaponry was intended for the

 4     5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I would just briefly like to talk about 1995 now.

 6             In the autumn of 1995, what information did you have about the

 7     participation of UNPROFOR, NATO, the Croatian army in the fighting in

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina during the time when the western municipalities of

 9     Republika Srpska were falling?

10        A.   This is a broad question.  It's hard to answer it briefly, but I

11     will try.

12             What is it about then?  I was born in the Visoka Krajina, the

13     high Krajina, in the location of Bosanski Petrovac.  So in late 1995, our

14     forward line of defence was located around Grahovo, and then in those

15     actions in the co-operation between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

16     and the regular Croat army forces, this is the Split agreement if I'm not

17     mistaken, there was a co-ordinated action against the Army of the

18     Republic of the Serbian Krajina and the Army of Republika Srpska.  Active

19     assistance to those forces was provided by the forces for rapid reaction,

20     and this can be reinforced by the following.  All the defence lines, the

21     anti-aircraft defence that NATO broke, they demolished our communications

22     system, and then only after the NATO actions did the actions of the

23     Muslim and Croat components begin their actions on the 6th of May and the

24     6th of August against the Serb forces during all the phases before the

25     cease-fire was signed sometime on the 12th of July, 1995.

Page 35325

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the last

 2     date.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, these kind of questions are eliciting

 4     these kind of sweeping statements.  I leave it to you but you are aware

 5     of it.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I am, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kecman, what were you personally in a

 8     position to see of that operation?  What did you observe regarding the

 9     NATO actions?

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, I personally saw and I personally felt on my own

11     helicopter the actions of the Rapid Reaction Force.  I saw the artillery

12     location of the Rapid Reaction Forces.  It was located south of Kljuc in

13     the village of Jarice [phoen] and south of Ribnik where the village of

14     Macan [phoen] was.  I saw their artillery firing in that period.  I also

15     saw an UNPROFOR helicopter, CH-47, that was transporting guns to a hill,

16     elevation 1.550, because that cannon fired us and we didn't know where it

17     could have been acting from.  We didn't think that it could have been

18     acting from the hill.  Only when we saw the helicopter we realised what

19     this was about.  This same helicopter, the CH-49, pulled out a downed

20     Croat helicopter from that hill.  That is what I saw myself and I stand

21     by that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just seek clarification.

23             You said you saw an UNPROFOR helicopter CH-47 that was

24     transporting guns.  Did you see those guns?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could see from a distance that it

Page 35326

 1     was transporting a gun.  You could see the cargo.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The cargo was not inside the helicopter or was it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gun was being transported by

 4     being suspended outside of the helicopter, so it was not inside the

 5     helicopter.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] We just have a minute, Mr. Kecman, so I just

10     wanted to ask you:  Pilotless aircraft, did you see any?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Who did they belong to?

13        A.   Well, this is an interesting question.  In Drvar, when we were

14     there, these drones were Croat.  I personally tried to down that drone by

15     taking off and trying to attain a certain altitude so that I could take

16     it out with a machine-gun.  However, since it's a small target, it was

17     white, at an altitude, that was impossible for me because I did not have

18     a guiding mechanism on the ground that would enable me to hit that

19     device --

20        Q.   [No interpretation]

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and witness repeat their last

23     two questions and answers.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Last two questions and answers, could they be

25     repeated.

Page 35327

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Kecman, my question was not recorded; neither was your

 3     answer.  Were there any UNPROFOR drones around?

 4        A.   Yes, there were, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Can you please tell us where you saw them?

 6        A.   I saw them in the sector of Sanski Most in the village of Kamicuk

 7     [phoen].

 8        Q.   And what were they doing there --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we -- when did you see them in

10     Sanski Most?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Time-wise it was on the 8th of

12     October, 1995.  The time was approximately 1430 hours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And could you please tell us what was the role of those drones?

16        A.   Those drones were supposed to transfer or report on the actual

17     data in the field.  By recordings from the air, they knew the complete

18     deployment of our forces on the ground, and they transferred that

19     information to their command centres.

20        Q.   At that time who was attacking the Army of Republika Srpska

21     there?

22        A.   During that period, the forces of the 5th Corps, the forces --

23     the regular Croatian army forces, and what I mentioned here, the Rapid

24     Reaction Force were all attacking Serb forces.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'd like to -- you to repeat when you said

Page 35328

 1     time-wise it was on the 8th of, and then you mentioned the month, in 1995

 2     at approximately 1430 hours.  What month did you mention?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was October 1995.  I was talking

 4     about the specific actions.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   They do have all the other information.  It was just the month.

 7             And just something that has to do with paragraphs 40 to 42.  Do

 8     you know - and how did you find out if you do know - how many flights

 9     were carried out by helicopters that belonged to the Army of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina during the war?

11        A.   I did find that piece of information.  However, that information

12     is something that each side now boasts as to how many flights they

13     carried out.  I found out the information regarding the Army of Bosnia

14     and Herzegovina regarding the helicopters that they had, the Muslims had

15     six helicopters and we had eight and the Croatian side had four.  The

16     Bosnian army helicopters carried out over 7.000 flights.  They

17     transported about 30.000 fighters.  They transported 3.000 wounded

18     persons.  They transported more than 300 tonnes of lethal and other

19     devices.  This is information that I came across in the publication of

20     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina where they provide their information

21     about what they did during the war.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not that much interested in what you read

23     elsewhere.

24             Mr. Lukic, if it's really relevant then I take it that you could

25     produce those reports which would then give that information.

Page 35329

 1             Mr. Lukic, I have to urge that you conclude now.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, then I will conclude now.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No further questions for the witness.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kecman.  This is all we had for you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud.

 8             We'll conclude for the day.  Mr. Kecman, we'd like to see you

 9     back on Monday because we're not sitting on Friday, 9.30 in the morning.

10     But I'd first -- I want to instruct you that you should not speak with

11     anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony,

12     whether already given or still to be given.

13             If that's clear to you, you may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you're on your feet.

17             MR. WEBER:  I just wanted to inform the Defence and the Chamber

18     just for the purposes of Monday that I do probably expect to be under a

19     session with the witness, just for witness scheduling purposes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Noted.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There was one other matter, and since we are

23     at the end of the week, unfortunately I have to perhaps pay attention to

24     it.  Very briefly.

25             Mr. Lukic, you told us this morning that two witnesses initially

Page 35330

 1     scheduled for the week of the 18th to the 22nd of May would not come to

 2     testify.  Were you referring to Mr. Milijanovic and Mr. Tomasevic?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Let me consult, Your Honour.

 4             Yes, Your Honour, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  So we will have four witnesses for that week, and

 7     this morning with the -- in conversation with my learned friend Weber, we

 8     estimated that we would be fine for that week for five working days with

 9     those four witnesses.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let me just have a look.  Yes, so we have

11     then -- you said four witnesses or five?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Four.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that would then be -- I think there are no

14     protective measures for any of those witnesses, that would be Sokanovic,

15     Pajic, and then we have pending the Chamber's decision on addition to

16     the -- your 65 ter list, perhaps Mr. Savo Simic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Simic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And the fourth one would be ... ?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Misic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Misic?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Milutin Misic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. WEBER:  And it's our understanding that the last one

24     mentioned would actually be the third one that week with the added one

25     being the final --

Page 35331

 1             MR. LUKIC:  That's right.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But we now know the four names of the

 3     witnesses who you expect will appear to testify.

 4             Apologies for our late -- for the late conclusion of today.

 5     We'll adjourn for the day and we'll resume Monday, the -- that will be

 6     the 11th if I'm not mistaken -- the 11th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in

 7     this same courtroom, I.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

10                           May, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.