1 Monday, 11 May 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, could the witness be
12 escorted in the courtroom.
13 Mr. Weber. Oh, you are just -- you're just ready to start.
14 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. That's correct.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kecman. I'd like to remind you
18 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
19 beginning of your testimony.
20 Mr. Lukic, you have concluded your examination-in-chief.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I did.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, Mr. Weber, if you're ready to
23 cross-examine the witness, you may proceed.
24 And you'll be cross-examined, Mr. Kecman, by Mr. Weber.
25 Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
1 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
2 WITNESS: JANKO KECMAN [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kecman.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Sir, today I'd first like to start by clarifying each of your
8 assignment between the year of 1991 to 1993.
9 You were assigned to a squadron based at the Zeljava airport
10 between 28 June 1991 and 20 October 1991; correct?
11 A. I was not a squadron commander. I was just a -- the commander of
12 one part of that squadron.
13 Q. Sir, please listen to my questions carefully. They'll be -- I'll
14 try to keep them very clear. Do I understand correctly, then, you were
15 assigned to the Zeljava airport between 28 June and 20 October 1991?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. The Zeljava airport was on the border between the Republic of
18 Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. It is -- just so we have a little context, it's the south of
21 Slunj and to the north of Korenica; right?
22 A. It's east of Korenica and south of Slunj. So you're right. It
23 would be north-west of the town of Bihac.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. In paragraph 21 of your statement you indicate
25 that you were assigned to a helicopter regiment in Zaluzani near
1 Banja Luka on 20 October 1991. Were you a part of this regiment from 20
2 October until the beginning of April 1992?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You were assigned to the 711th Anti-Armour Helicopter Squadron or
5 POHE of the 5th Corps prior to April 1992; correct?
6 A. It was the 5th Corps and there was indeed a 711th squadron and I
7 was its member.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32545 for
9 the witness.
10 Q. This is a 1 April 1992 order number 1-763 from Lieutenant-General
11 Bozidar Stevanovic, commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence.
12 At the beginning of this order, we see that it relates to the temporary
13 assignment of personnel to a helicopter squadron of the Ministry of
14 Interior of the SAO Krajina.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S
16 and page 3 of the English translation. Focusing on item number 5.
17 Q. Under item 5, we see that you are listed and your previous
18 assignment is described. The order then indicates that you received a
19 temporary assignment as of 1 April. You were assigned to a helicopter
20 squadron of the MUP of the SAO Krajina as of 1 April 1992; correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. In this document, we see there is an instruction to report to the
23 commander of the Udbina airport. If could you just give us the name, who
24 did you report to when you received this assignment?
25 A. The squadron was set up in the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It
1 was directly subordinated to the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of
2 Serbian Krajina.
3 Q. Could you give us the name of the person who you reported to when
4 you received this assignment?
5 A. My superior was Major Darko Sekulic. He was the commander of
6 that squadron.
7 Q. And the squadron that you're referring to, I believe we see,
8 according to report, is the 56th Mixed Helicopter Squadron.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: Yes?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also please slow down.
12 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Were you in this helicopter squadron until November 1993?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. As a member of this squadron, you are familiar with the 17th of
16 August training centre in Golubic; right?
17 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. What do you mean when you say the
18 training centre? Could you be more specific, please.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. WEBER: First of all, could the Prosecution tender this
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7372, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P7372 is admitted.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. And since you just asked that last question, if we could go
2 quickly to 65 ter 32547, page 2 of both versions.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before that. Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 25760b,
4 what P number does it have? I have it as having 7372.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour. So 65 ter number
6 32545 will be P7373.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Sorry, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: No problem, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, this is a 31 May 1994 RSK MUP 56th Helicopter Squadron
11 request. It's addressed to the RSK minister of internal affairs. In the
12 first line of the request, it refers to your former unit being based at
13 the Golubic training centre, and in the third sentence the request
14 indicates that the helicopter squadron moved to the Heliodrom on
15 28 September 1993. Does this help you refresh your recollection as to
16 the 17th of August training centre in Golubic?
17 A. I'm familiar with the place Golubic, and I'm familiar with the
18 signature of the commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Veljko Leka. That's all I
19 know about this document.
20 MR. WEBER: I wasn't going to spend much time on this, but since
21 I had to use this on the record, it's part of a larger file, if
22 Your Honours would, with your indulgence, if we could just excerpt the
23 one document and tender that one document. We're not going to need to
24 seek the entire file at this time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you think that that's enough, I leave it in your
1 hands, Mr. Weber, but you then have to separately upload it as a separate
2 document. We could already reserve a number for this extract of what was
3 until now uploaded under the number you mentioned. But this is the
4 31st of May 1994 request for hangar construction.
5 Mr. Registrar, the number to be reserved would be.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P7373, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 7374.
8 THE REGISTRAR: 7374, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P7374 is reserved for that purpose.
10 Witness, you said you didn't know anything more about this
11 document. Now, the document refers to the 17th of August training
12 centre. Do you say that is totally unknown or I'm not aware of any
13 Golubic training centre? Apart from whether you have seen this document
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've not seen this document before.
16 I'm familiar with the centre at Golubic. One part of my unit was there
17 in January 1993, when the units of the Croatian army attacked the
18 southern part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So you are familiar with the centre?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It would have saved some time if you would have told
22 us that right away when you were asked about the 17th August training
23 centre Golubic, rather than to invite Mr. Weber to describe what training
24 centre he meant. Because, as it turns out now, you're fully aware of
25 that training centre.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32546 for
3 the witness.
4 Q. This is a 5 February 1992 order from RSK Minister of the Interior
5 Milan Martic. At the bottom of the document, we see there's a reference
6 to the previous order that we look the at a little bit ago. Number
7 1-763. We also see that you are referred to under item 1 and it
8 indicates that you are the mixed air squadron commander. You've
9 mentioned that you became the commander of this squadron during your
10 testimony. My question to you is: When did you become the commander?
11 A. I became acting commander on the 16 November 1994 after my
12 squadron commander was killed. I was temporarily assigned to his
13 position until the official order which came on the 5th of February,
15 Q. I'm a little bit confused by the date that's recorded in the
16 transcript. Sir, if you could clarify. Your previous answer says --
17 starts with you saying: "I became acting commander on 16 February [sic]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: November.
20 MR. WEBER: 16 November, sorry, of 1994.
21 Q. Is that an accurate date?
22 A. As far as I can see here and as far as I can remember, it was in
23 1993. I apologise. 1992. And then in 1993 I became the squadron
24 commander starting with this date.
25 Q. Based on what we've seen, is it correct that you were assigned to
1 the RSK MUP Ministry of Interior between 1 April 1992 and November 1993?
2 A. When it comes to that unit, I stayed there until the 1st of
3 April, 1993. And after that date, another unit was set up and it was
4 part of the armed forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I continued
5 working as commander in that unit and that unit remained part of the
6 Ministry of Interior.
7 Q. Now I just want to ask you about a couple aspects of the document
8 before us --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I understood your question that you'd
10 like to know when he was appointed, not until when he stayed. Which
11 seems to be ...
12 MR. WEBER: I actually changed from when he was appointed
13 commander, which I believe he clarified. I then -- it was my intention
14 to move on to the fact of whether or not he was assigned to the MUP --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I may have -- is it correct that you were
16 assigned to the RSK MUP ministry between the 1st of April 1992 and
17 November 1993. I would expect an answer when he was assigned and he told
18 us until when he stayed, but where he exactly stayed is even not clear.
19 But if you are satisfied with the answer, then I leave it.
20 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour.
21 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the fact that
22 Milan Martic sends this order to the VJ General Staff personnel
23 administration, we can see that at the top of the document. This was
24 because you were assigned to the RSK MUP through the 40th Personnel
25 Centre of the VJ; right?
1 A. I don't know what personnel centre and what administration it
2 was. I was assigned this way and this is all okay.
3 Q. Just to understand correctly, you were assigned to the RSK MUP
4 through the VJ; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. When you later joined the Army of Republika Srpska, you were also
7 assigned to the VRS through the VJ; correct?
8 A. No. I was assigned at my own request, which I sent to the Main
9 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. My request was to move to
10 Republika Srpska, this was accepted, and I rejoined the Army of
11 Republika Srpska as a result of that.
12 Q. That request went through Belgrade; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Sir, before tendering this document, I just wanted to draw your
15 attention to the reference to Federal Secretary of National Defence order
16 number 1943-1 of 28 April 1992 in the first part of this document.
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, could I tender this document at this
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 32546 will be Exhibit P7375,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7375 is admitted.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14426 for
24 the witness.
25 Q. And, sir, coming up before you will be order number 1943-1, dated
1 28 April 1992.
2 MR. WEBER: I believe it starts on the next page as the enclosure
3 in both versions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, did I miss the translation of the
5 handwritten portions on the cover page. Could we go one page back? In
6 both versions. I see quite some handwriting which appears not to be
8 MR. WEBER: Yes. We -- we see that that's the case. When I go
9 to tender, I'd be happy to address that -- or what I'm focusing on for
10 the examination is the actual order itself.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's move on. But, of course, the
12 Chamber would like to know what is written there.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you for drawing our attention to it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So we move on to the second page in both versions,
17 MR. WEBER: This is order number 1943-1, dated 28 April, 1992,
18 from Blagoje Adzic, chief of the General Staff of the SFRY armed forces.
19 We can see that the order relates to organisational changes in the
20 Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
21 Could the Prosecution please go to the next page of both
23 Q. Under item 7 of this order, we see that there's a reference to
24 the 56th Combined Air Force Squadron at the Udbina airport. This is
25 referring to your helicopter squadron; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. The order then indicates that in peacetime and in war time the
3 squadron shall be resubordinated to the RSK Ministry of Interior. We
4 have seen from the previous documents that you were formally assigned to
5 the RSK MUP, and here we see that your squadron it resubordinated to the
6 MOD. During operations you were resubordinated to the military; correct?
7 A. No, I was resubordinated to the Ministry of Interior. However,
8 this is about a different system. Up until the 1st of May, 1995, the
9 activities which took place in the Republic of Serbian Krajina were
10 supervised by the peacekeeping forces and the authority fell into the
11 hands of the Ministry of Interior. It was only after that that the Army
12 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was re-established.
13 Q. Sir, the Chamber has received some other evidence about this.
14 I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you on it.
15 MR. WEBER: So could the Prosecution please tender this document.
16 We'd be happy to have it marked for identification pending the
17 revision -- the revised translation of the cover page.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar the number would be.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P7376, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just to clean up -- Your Honours, to
22 clean up a housekeeping matter. The excerpted page from 65 ter 32547,
23 the 31 May 1994 document, has now been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter
24 32547a. This document was provisionally assigned Exhibit P7375. We now
25 ask that --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: 74.
2 MR. WEBER: 7374. Thank you, Your Honours. We kindly request
3 that the document be replaced and it now be admitted.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. P7374 is admitted.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. WEBER: At this time, I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a
7 video, and it is 65 ter 22312a. I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to pause at
8 the 14-second mark at the outside of the video. We have provided
9 transcripts to the booths, and there's minimal audio on the video so ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Minimal is not nothing.
11 MR. WEBER: Not nothing.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you rely in any way on the audio?
13 MR. WEBER: The audio that is there, at this first portion
14 there's -- there's --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been verified that the transcript reflects
16 the words spoken? Because if not, we have to play it twice.
17 MR. WEBER: No it hasn't been verified, although this video has
18 been admitted in multiple times as exhibits at the Tribunal.
19 JUDGE ORIE: This video in this trial?
20 MR. WEBER: Not in this trial. But at the trial -- previous
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This --
23 MR. WEBER: But it has not been verified in this record.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has a standard procedure for verifying
25 whether especially quickly spoken text is accurately reflected in the
1 transcript and then interpreted for us accurately.
2 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, we do it twice.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. WEBER: The video is now paused at 14.1 seconds.
6 Q. Sir, what you have just seen the beginning of is footage from a
7 March 1992 video recording that took place at the 17th of August training
8 centre in Golubic. Do you recognise the person saluting here towards the
9 right side of the photo as Milan Martic?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Sir, in the first 14 seconds of this video we saw Mr. Martic
12 walking in front of a number of individuals in uniform. These people in
13 uniform that we've seen so far, they were members of the RSK MUP;
15 A. This is footage from the training centre that we spoke of a
16 moment ago, the 17th of August. And as far as I can see, this is one of
17 these groups of soldiers -- or rather policemen who were in that centre
18 and who were completing their training at that centre.
19 Q. Just so we have it on the record before we continue watching, did
20 you attend this ceremony or know about it in March 1992?
21 A. I didn't know. You saw from that order that I arrived in the
22 unit, that is to say, the Republika Srpska Krajina, on the 1st of April,
24 Q. Yeah. Could we please continue watching until 2 minutes and 25
25 seconds. There will be a song, I believe, played during this portion,
1 and then there will be some verbally spoken words, so it may require us
2 to go back and reverify those words.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll replay the portion where, as you
4 said, words were spoken verbally.
5 MR. WEBER: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I noted that there was spoken portions
9 between the approximately 33 second mark to 47 seconds, and 2 minutes 12
10 seconds to approximately the 2.25.2 mark that we're on. If Your Honours
11 would like, we could replay those two segments right now, skipping --
12 [Overlapping speakers].
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we'd like to hear the interpretation
14 of those words.
15 MR. WEBER: First, may I ask Ms. Stewart to replay from
16 approximately 33 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Cadets, I salute you."
19 MR. WEBER: If we could continue playing until approximately 47
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Good afternoon, sir. Very good.
23 Attention. Stand at ease."
24 MR. WEBER: And if we could now please go to -- just to start a
25 little early, the 2 minute, 10 second mark, and if we could continue
1 playing until the 2 minutes 25 seconds.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Please allow me on behalf of the
4 17th August training centre here in the Republika of Serbian Krajina to
5 welcome... "
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. Sir, I'm just pausing here. Aside from Mr. Martic, and I believe
8 you also recognised General Mladic in this video, did you recognise any
9 other individuals who were present that we've seen so far?
10 A. Except for my two commanders, I recognise the president of
11 Republic of Serb Krajina, Mr. Goran Hadzic. That would be it, roughly.
12 It was pretty fast. That's what I managed to recognise.
13 Q. We're paused at 2 minutes, 25 seconds. Is it correct that
14 President Hadzic is sitting in the dark overcoat with the beard in the
15 image that's on the screen before us?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And when you're saying your two commanders, who are the
18 individuals that you're referring to?
19 A. Well, first my commander was Mr. Milan Martic, and afterwards my
20 commander was General Ratko Mladic.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time I'm going to play the
22 remainder of the video, and it's going to need to be played twice because
23 there's words spoken throughout.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's hear it for the first time.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. WEBER: And at this time the Prosecution has got to replay
2 from the 2 minute 25 second portion till the end of the video.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. Zdravko Zecevic, prime minister
5 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Interruption. Representatives of
6 the Krajina Corps led by Major-General Ratko Mladic. The commander of
7 the Serb Volunteer Guard. The president of ...
8 "Dear guests of this [unintelligible] ceremony for all the
9 soldiers who fell for our Krajina, may they rest in eternal glory,
10 against the Ustasha, about the defence against the dagger, about the
11 defence of the Serb people not only in the Krajina but throughout our
12 blood soaked Serbian land, because you must know that this has never been
13 Croatia, the Serb people paid for this land with blood, I say to you that
14 this never belonged to Croatia. This is Serbia and will stay Serbia."
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Sir, toward the end of this video, we saw the statements by
17 Zeljko Raznjatovic, who's known to this Chamber as Arkan, and we can also
18 hear the applause when he says: "This is Serbia and will stay..." part
19 of "... Serbia."
20 This last statement by Zeljko Raznjatovic, this was a reference
21 to the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?
22 MR. LUKIC: Objection. I don't know how this witness who was not
23 there would know what Zeljko Raznjatovic meant.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then he'll tell us that he doesn't know and --
25 MR. LUKIC: I think that it would be pure guessing, Your Honours,
1 and that's why we would object.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least the word "Krajina" is mentioned not
3 only once but twice in the speech. So, therefore, the question can be
4 asked to the witness and you may answer the question.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Sir, Mr. Raznjatovic's reference "to this is Serbia and will
7 stay..." a part of "... Serbia" is a reference to the Republic of Serbian
8 Krajina; correct?
9 A. Since the Serb people were in that area and they didn't want to
10 leave the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and those
11 processes, I mean international processes, had not been carried out, my
12 personal view is that that is the context in which he said that.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would
14 tender 65 ter 22312a into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7377, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P7377 is admitted. I see that the CD-ROMs have been
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Sir, I just have a couple of other really small items to discuss
22 with you, and I'd actually like to direct your attention now forward
23 while you were in the Army of Republika Srpska, so between 1993 and 1995.
24 During that time, did you ever fly to the VMA in Belgrade?
25 A. Yes, several times.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32576 for
2 the witness.
3 Q. Sir, what's going to be coming up before you is going to be an
4 aerial image from Google of the --
5 MR. WEBER: Can we see it on the monitor already?
6 THE REGISTRAR: No document attached to the 65 ter, Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, our apologies. If could you have a
8 moment of indulgence, I believe it's being released.
9 Your Honours, I note I do not have it on the screen before me. I
10 don't know if it's on the screen before the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's not on our screens. It wasn't on our screens
12 because it is now.
13 MR. WEBER: Here we have it.
14 Q. Sir, this is an aerial image of Belgrade. The installations
15 towards the centre of the aerial image, you recognise that as the VMA in
16 Belgrade; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we could direct our attention to the -- there's two circles
19 with -- appear to be paved paths around them just below and a little to
20 the right of the VMA, those are helicopter landing pads; correct?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Sir, if we could just do as of -- if you could do us a favour
23 just because there's lot of things on this photograph. If the court
24 officer could please hand the witness with -- a pen, and if could you
25 circle the helicopter landing pads.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. These are the helicopter landing pads you landed at during the
3 war; right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Now, sir, did you fly to the VMA in Belgrade ever from
6 Crna Rijeka?
7 A. Not from Crna Rijeka.
8 Q. Did you fly to the -- to this location from anywhere in
9 Eastern Bosnia?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'm not asking to you explain the occasions, but if could you
12 just tell us the precise locations that you flew from in eastern -- from
13 Eastern Bosnia?
14 A. From Zvornik, the location of Karakaj where the Heliodrom was. I
15 flew the wounded to Belgrade, to this location.
16 Q. Just so we have some idea of timing, from the Heliodrom in
17 Karakaj to the VMA in Belgrade, approximately how long would that take
18 you to fly between those two points?
19 A. Well, 20 to 25 minutes.
20 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the image on the screen, as
22 JUDGE ORIE: As marked by the witness.
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7378, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P7378 is admitted.
1 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
4 Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Lukic?
5 MR. LUKIC: Very -- very short.
6 Can I continue?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good day once again, Mr. Kecman.
11 A. Good day.
12 Q. I am just going ask you something about this video that was shown
13 to you now, P7377. That's how it's been admitted. We saw this speech by
14 Zeljko Raznjatovic. Do you know who filmed this material?
15 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. I mean ...
16 Q. In your view, does this footage show that this is exactly the
17 gathering where Zeljko Raznjatovic is speaking?
18 A. Well, I see that he is speaking, but I cannot say specifically
19 where it is that he is speaking.
20 Q. All right. Let me just ask you something. Zeljko Raznjatovic
21 has been mentioned --
22 MR. LUKIC: Just a minute.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, you have not
24 specifically asked, is there a suggestion that the speech by
25 Zeljko Raznjatovic is planted into that video and is not part of the
2 MR. LUKIC: The suggestion is that we do not see where
3 Zeljko Raznjatovic spoke. There is no -- any connection in that video.
4 It was just cut and we saw him [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, but he's announced, isn't it, by the main
6 speaker? Well, not by name but by function.
7 MR. LUKIC: But we do not know if that speech is from that
8 meeting. We cannot -- I couldn't see it. I --
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you say -- yes. You said there's no link and I'm
10 just wondering whether you consider the announcement of a person in a
11 certain position speaking -- is not then related to Arkan? Is that your
12 position or do you say we don't know?
13 MR. LUKIC: I could not establish that that speech was from that
14 meeting. Although he was announced, it doesn't mean that that's -- that
15 was a speech.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course. It could be anything else.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Kecman, Zeljko Raznjatovic is speaking here in this video
20 footage about the struggle against daggers. What are daggers and what
21 are they a symbol are?
22 A. Daggers are a symbol of the Ustasha; that is to say, everything
23 negative that happened to the Serb people during the previous war, that
24 is to say, from 1941 to 1945.
25 Q. What was this that happened to the Serb people and what are
1 daggers related to?
2 A. A major genocide was carried out against the Serb people. About
3 a million and a half Serbs lost their lives during that war. You saw
4 these daggers, that these daggers were used in the camp of Jasenovac,
5 where 500- to 700.000 persons lost their lives. Not only Serbs but other
6 ethnic groups as well.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] In the Serb Republic of Krajina, do you know
10 whether Zeljko Raznjatovic was subordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia,
11 actually the JNA at the time?
12 A. I'm not sure, but I think he was not. I mean, I know he was not.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kecman. That's all we had for you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, any further questions? But let me
15 just -- any further questions?
16 MR. WEBER: I would just like to go to a quick time-frame in that
17 video, if we could. Exhibit P7377, time code 3 minute, 19 seconds.
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
19 Q. Sir, in this video in the front row, do you see General Mladic
20 standing towards the -- he's the individual in the front row, second to
21 the left of the photo; correct?
22 A. I do, I do.
23 Q. And we've seen Mr. Raznjatovic and what he was wearing that day,
24 but is it correct that if you go over three individuals from
25 General Mladic, towards President Hadzic, that's Zeljko Raznjatovic
1 standing in the second row; correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE ORIE: One last question. You started saying I'm not
7 certain whether Arkan was subordinated, and then you said you think he
8 was not, and then you say "I know he was not." Could you explain what
9 was at the basis of this knowledge?
10 A. Well, knowing Mr. Mladic from the subsequent period, I mean, he
11 certainly would not have paramilitaries within his own troops.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you concluded that in view of the
13 attitude taken later by General Mladic?
14 A. General Mladic had that attitude from the very beginning until
15 the end.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you said subsequent period. Why did you refer
17 to the subsequent period?
18 A. Well, that situation; namely, that I participated and waged war
19 in three different armies; that is to say, all the three armies that
20 General Ratko Mladic belonged to. Knowing from the very outset when I
21 heard of him in 1991, 1992, when I heard about his attitudes and his way
22 of protecting the confronted parties in that area, he certainly had
23 enough power and he didn't need any help from the outside.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 No further questions triggered by my questions?
1 Mr. Kecman, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you
2 very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the questions
3 that were put to you; questions that were put to you by the parties,
4 questions that were put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return
5 home again. You may now follow the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour. It would be Mr. Todorovic,
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom --
12 oh, no, we'll first take a break. I have to apologise.
13 We take a break and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Todorovic. Before you give
20 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
21 is now handed out to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: DRAGAN TODOROVIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Todorovic.
2 Mr. Todorovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You find
3 Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Todorovic.
8 A. Good day.
9 Q. Just for the record, could you please tell us slowly your name,
10 your first and last names.
11 A. Dragan Todorovic. I was born on the 8th of August, 1965 in
12 Tuzla. Before the war, I resided in Kladanj municipality. My father's
13 surname Mirosav, my mother's name is Nevenka. I'm a Serb of Orthodox
14 faith and I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 Q. Hvala [No interpretation].
16 A. You're welcome.
17 Q. Until when did you reside in Kladanj?
18 A. Until the beginning of the war. Until 1992.
19 Q. And now I'm going to ask you something about the situation before
20 the war broke out.
21 First of all, did you know anything about the military
22 organisation of Muslims in 1991, from 1991 until the spring of 1992 in
24 A. Since I lived and worked in Kladanj, obviously I knew what was
25 going on in my municipality. I myself got an invitation from the
1 TO Kladanj to report to a mobilisation spot. The name of that is
2 Tisovac; it's a dam, a bathing spot. I never responded because I did not
3 want to be a member of the Patriotic League. Nobody ever forced me to
4 respond. I worked at a hotel as a waiter. From time to time, those
5 people would go for maneuvers. I saw them in uniforms with white
6 markings on their hats. It was the symbol of a lily and the letters PL
7 for Patriotic League. It was not like all the population sported those
8 symbols and insignia. Some people did.
9 Q. How long or how late was it safe to travel and when did it become
10 unsafe to use the roads around Kladanj?
11 A. When barricades and check-points emerged, all that didn't bode
12 well. That demonstrated that things had changed, that we were looking at
13 each other differently, that we were behaving differently, that we were
14 controlling each other, that the mutual trust that had existed all of a
15 sudden was dying out. People started avoiding their former friends and
16 acquaintances. Guards started patrolling the town.
17 Q. When did you leave Kladanj, approximately? At what time?
18 A. I left Kladanj at the end of April or the beginning of May. A
19 man in uniform came. He was my neighbour. And he told me, "Go. I can
20 help you today. I won't be able to help you tomorrow." I just laughed.
21 I asked for an explanation. He said I can't explain. We had socialised.
22 We had worked together. He told me go and join your people. I accepted
23 that. I realised that it was not a joke. I went to my village, to where
24 my parents lived. I stayed there for a while. And from there, I left.
25 In my village, they thought it was just a game, that war. I told them
1 that people had uniforms and arms, and they said it's all a big joke. I
2 left there, I left my village across the forest, I arrived in
3 Vlasenica --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise for interrupting but it was a simple
6 question: When did you leave. And as he has with the other questions,
7 he's getting into a repeated narrative. So I would ask for simple
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I do not know whether this is what
10 you're seeking, Mr. Lukic, in that the witness apparently feels what your
11 next question would be. But I asked myself at all what is the part of it
12 if there's any dispute.
13 Is there any dispute that a Patriotic League did exist,
14 Mr. McCloskey? There's no dispute about that.
15 Is there any dispute that it happened -- that it existed in
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe so, Mr. President. But as for
18 these details, I'm not absolutely clear on.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then it's all sweeping statements without
20 any basis of knowledge. Mr. Lukic, this Chamber would very much like to
21 receive serious evidence challenging what the Prosecution seeks to
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, this was just an entry for my next
25 several questions, and I think it would be clear from the next one --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I would say move directly to what you
2 consider to be relevant.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, what do you personally know about
7 what happened to the Serbs who had remained in Kladanj after you left?
8 A. The Serbs who stayed in Kladanj, some of them joined the
9 military, and those who refused to join were taken to a camp. Some were
10 arrested at the check-points and their trace was lost until the year
11 2000. I'm talking about four lads: Dragan Zelenovic, Dragan Remetic,
12 Vojo Baletic, and Vojislav Vasiljevic. They're my relatives, actually.
13 Q. Thank you. And what did you learn about them and when did you
14 learn that?
15 A. We learned that after the war there was a long search for them,
16 before that, on our part, and then we learned that they were killed not
17 far from Kladanj in the direction of Vrtenovic in a cave. Their bodies
18 were exhumed from there and those who were in the camp survived. And
19 those who were in the camp survived thanks to the Red Cross
20 organisations -- organisation that registered them.
21 Q. Did you know anything about those four relatives of yours? Where
22 were they killed?
23 A. We didn't know anything. They were arrested before a combat
24 event started. At the check-point, the Patriotic League took them
25 prisoner. A detachment had been set up. They arrested them. They were
1 supposed to be investigated. And after that, all their traces were lost
2 until the end of the war. During the war, we tried to get in touch with
3 the military to see if we could find them, if we could exchange them.
4 Nothing came out of that. We didn't know anything about their destiny
5 until the end of the war.
6 Q. In combat with the opposing side, did you lose a family member?
7 A. Yes. Two uncles and a relative. I was the 17th in a row that
8 was wounded, but I survived. Those who were wounded before me didn't
9 survive. They were wounded in combat.
10 Q. In the area where you were, were there any civilian casualties on
11 the Serbian side during combat?
12 A. Around Kladanj, there were civilian casualties when our villages
13 were being attacked. All the villages around the Kladanj municipality
14 were torched save for Pelemis. They were torched in 1993.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down and could he
16 repeat the two names that he has just mentioned of his uncle and his
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first of all, could you slow down and could
19 you repeat the two names you'd just mentioned of your uncle and a
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My uncle on my father's side, not
22 my uncle on my mother's side, Nikola Todorovic; and my relative,
23 Nebojsa Zoranovic. They were both killed while they were defending my
24 village, Vucinici, not far from Kladanj. My uncle was taken prisoner
25 after he had been wounded, and then he was finished off and killed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And when was that? Because we have no time-frame
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992. I believe that it was in
4 the month of August.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] I asked you about civilian casualties.
8 A. Yes, there were in other villages.
9 Q. Could you please tell us the names of those villages where there
10 were civilian casualties but slow down, please.
11 A. Vrenovici, Mladovo, Obrcevac, Pajici, Kovacici, Konjevic Vucinici
12 and other villages whose names escape me. All the villages were
13 destroyed. The houses were torched there.
14 Q. You mentioned Pelemis as an exception to that.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did the village of Pelemis remain intact until the end of the
18 A. No.
19 Q. What happened and when?
20 A. Pelemis was attacked on Easter Day in 1993. Strong Muslim forces
21 attacked the village. That was the Army of BiH. I don't know what you
22 want me to call that force. I don't want to insult anybody. I'm going
23 to use the term "BiH army."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, two questions: First, you said you
25 mentioned Pelemis as an exception to that. I don't find that on the
1 record, so it may have been that the -- if I'm not mistaken. And second,
2 if the witness describes what happened in many, many villages, it would
3 certainly assist us if we would know what his personal knowledge about
4 all that is.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you heard what Judge Orie's interested in. What
7 is your personal knowledge about the torched Serb villages in Kladanj
9 A. My personal knowledge is this: In Obrcevac, Mladovo, and
10 Vrenovici, there were civilian casualties of advanced age: My uncle,
11 whose name I mentioned, and my relative, whose names I mentioned, were
12 killed in my village, and I also know that all the houses were torched.
13 They burnt to the ground. They were completely destroyed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Were you present when it happened or did you learn
15 about your uncle later or ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned about my uncle's death in
17 the year 2000 when his body was found and exhumed. Until then he been
18 recorded as a missing person. And for as long as a person is recorded as
19 missing, there is a search for their body. That's normal.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now the circumstances under which your uncle died,
21 did you learn that from others who have observed that or did you not
22 learn it? Is it still unknown to you? I'd like to know what -- how you
23 learned these things. I do understand that if a body is exhumed, then
24 that's a way of learning that somebody had died, and not very pleasant, I
25 fully understand that, but do you have any other direct information
1 about, for example, what happened to your uncle?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My uncle was a member of the Army
3 of Republika Srpska that had also been set up at the same time as the BiH
4 army. He defended his own village. There was an attack on my village in
5 August. He was wounded in his left leg when they took him prisoner. He
6 was taken prisoner, and as soon as that happened he was finished off. He
7 was killed.
8 And for Nebojsa Zoranovic, his body remained hidden until the
9 year 2000.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now my question is: Who told you that he was killed
11 and when, and under what circumstances?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who told me? A mate of mine who
13 was in Italy who had worked with me. He returned, opened a restaurant.
14 Since we were good friends before the war, I got in touch with him and he
15 told me that he would find the grave and mark it but that he didn't dare
16 be present for his own personal safety reason.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question. Who took your uncle prisoner?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BiH army.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where did they take him prisoner from?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction of Kladanj.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: On what date?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date. I know
23 that it was in August 1992.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you witness the taking of him as a prisoner?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And did this friend who opened a restaurant, did he
3 tell you where he was when your uncle was killed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wanted to avoid the war and then
5 he returned to Bosnia after the war.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So he was not present when your uncle was killed?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And what then exactly is the basis of his knowledge?
9 How did he know further details, if he did?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. He had own men there.
11 That was his town. He knew the lads who had been engaged. He got in
12 touch with somebody I don't know. In any case, he helped me to excavate
13 the bodies. A doctor from Zvornik called Gavro [phoen] went with the Red
14 Cross, they excavated the body, they marked the area where the bodies had
15 been buried.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I'm not going to ask you about any names. I'm just going to ask
20 you the ethnicity of that mate of yours who helped you to locate your
21 uncle's body?
22 A. Muslim, Bosniak.
23 Q. After leaving Kladanj, where did the Serb refugees go?
24 A. Some in Vlasenica, some in Zvornik, some in Sekovici, some in
25 Serbia. Some stayed on the lines as personnel, the newly established
1 line of combat.
2 Q. Who had military obligation on Serb territory? Did Muslims also
3 have to go into the army as well as Serbs?
4 A. When I joined the Army of Republika Srpska, it was voluntary, and
5 in my unit there wasn't a single Muslim in that first unit where I was.
6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were Muslims forcibly recruited
7 into the Serb army in your territory?
8 A. In my territory, Vlasenica-Sekovici, I'm not aware of anybody
9 receiving call-up papers and being forcibly brought into the unit as a
10 combatant or anything else.
11 Q. Now I'm going to ask you briefly about your participation in the
12 army. You said that you joined voluntarily. What unit, when?
13 A. When I arrived Vlasenica, I reported to the municipality in
14 Vlasenica and they deployed me in Sekovici, the Sekovici Brigade, and
15 that's why I joined the ranks of the Sekovici Brigade. I think it was
16 the 1st Birac Brigade.
17 Q. Where did you go after that unit?
18 A. Well, an assault detachment was detached in Vlasenica, I think it
19 was September, so I joined that assault detachment of Vlasenica that was
20 subordinated to the Drina Corps that was already established by then.
21 Q. After that unit, did you stay in the VRS all the time?
22 A. Well, I spent some time in that unit. And then from that unit, I
23 went to the special unit of the police, the Sekovici 2 Detachment.
24 Q. How long did you stay there?
25 A. Well, not very long. Didn't really like it there. I didn't like
1 the behaviour of the command towards us. And also I'm not a fan of blue
3 Q. After that?
4 A. I went back to this Vlasenica Intervention Platoon that was
5 attached to the command. I was there until I was wounded on the
6 Vlasenica-Kladanj road.
7 Q. After recovering from that wound --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness start
9 again. We didn't hear the beginning of his answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you restart your answer,
11 because the interpreters missed the beginning of it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I was wounded on the
13 road between Vlasenica and Kladanj during the night on the 27th of July,
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Did you recover during the war?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. After recovery, did you go back or did you go to some other unit?
19 A. After recovery, I joined the 10th Sabotage Detachment.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the number of the
21 military post code that he referred to.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could you, could you please repeat the
23 number of the military post code that you mentioned before.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 75. 7572/15.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Where was this unit based? Was it in one place only?
2 A. No. Some were in Bijeljina and some had their base in Vlasenica.
3 A smaller place, a village, about 5 kilometres away. The name is
5 Q. What part were you in?
6 A. I was in the Vlasenica part.
7 Q. What was the purpose of that unit?
8 A. Well, that's a unit that was established to work behind enemy
9 lines, to destroy enemy manpower, soldiers, materiel. To carry out
10 sabotage behind enemy lines. Also certain things like securing officers,
11 important buildings, and so on, when necessary.
12 Q. Who was your commander in that unit?
13 A. Commander Milorad Pelemis was my commander.
14 Q. In 1994 and 1995, do you know which rank Mr. Pelemis held?
15 A. Well, he never wore any kind of insignia, and he didn't like us
16 to address him that way. I think it was second lieutenant, lieutenant,
17 something like that. I think that that is what he managed to attain even
18 by the end of the war.
19 Q. What were your duties within the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
20 A. Well, since I had been wounded, I have these scars from the war,
21 five bullets. He offered me to work on logistics, to take care of
22 soldiers so that they could eat on time, so that they could have a place
23 to sleep, that they would have clothes to wear, footwear, and it seemed
24 to me that I could handle that. I accepted that. I did that from one
25 task to another.
1 Q. Did you go out into the field with the unit?
2 A. Of course, yes.
3 Q. When you were out in the field, did your role change or were you
4 still in charge of the same things like in base?
5 A. Well, basically I did all the same things while we were in the
6 field. If the unit moved, I moved together with them. If the unit was
7 in jeopardy, of course, I would help my pals and the soldiers, officers.
8 Q. When you would go into action, did you get any instructions from
9 Commander Pelemis before each and every action; do you remember?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What were you told before these actions?
12 A. Well, every time he would line up the unit and present what he
13 had to say, how we were supposed to behave in this action, what we were
14 supposed to do, that we were supposed to help one another, that we were
15 supposed to save one another, and even if the worst were to happen, then
16 how we should eliminate one another.
17 Q. In which cases was a member of the unit supposed to be
19 A. If the rest of the team was under threat, the rest of the group,
20 the platoon, depending on the number of personnel involved and what was
21 being done. So if any of these people were a threat to other soldiers,
22 making them a target for falling into some kind of danger, getting
23 arrested or captured or killed, then the commander of the group would
24 decide to have him eliminated.
25 Q. In practice, did it ever happen that a member of the group was
2 A. No. And thank God for that, that did not happen.
3 Q. Were you told how to treat civilians that you find on enemy
5 A. All civilians that were encountered, they were supposed to be
6 greeted or people were supposed to go around them, and I don't know of a
7 single civilian being touched in any way, when people went into action.
8 They tried to pacify them and, if possible, even to avoid them. It was
9 the enemy that was the target. Their heavy weaponry, their lines, their
10 vehicles. That's what saboteurs do: You attack the enemy so that the
11 enemy would not attack you.
12 Q. Thank you. Let us mentally move to the month of July 1995. Do
13 you remember whether your unit was given a task in relation to Srebrenica
14 in the beginning of July 1995?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: Can we see on our screens D320. We saw this document
17 several times.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I have no recollection what D320 is. But
19 if it is any document you are seeking confirmation of, then the --
20 in-chief, the appropriate way of doing that is to first ask a question.
21 And then if you think that the answer requires that you put a document to
22 the witness that you do it then. Not to show it to him and then --
23 because that may have a leading effect. But, again, I do not know what
24 your question will be.
25 MR. LUKIC: I wanted to ask this witness about the signature on
1 this document, so I had to have it front of him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then you have to do it, yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, there is a document before you.
5 At the bottom of this document it says: "Commander,
6 2nd Lieutenant Pelemis."
7 A. Pelemis, yes.
8 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Pelemis's signature?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this his signature, the one that we see in the document?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you familiar with this signature?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Whose signature is this, Mr. Todorovic?
15 A. Franc Kos's. He was a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, a
16 second lieutenant.
17 Q. In real time, when this document was issued, did you see it?
18 A. Yes, this is my document, and I submitted this document to the
19 Tribunal. I had this document, and I prepared personnel and equipment
20 and everything else that was needed on the basis of this document.
21 Q. This is an order for the unit to march along the
22 Bijeljina-Vlasenica-Bratunac axis?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did people go towards Bratunac on the basis of this order?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At the moment when the order was received to go to Bratunac, out
2 of this group, who knew where the group was going? Did everybody know?
3 A. Only I knew.
4 Q. And who did you inform about this order?
5 A. When we linked, only Franc knew.
6 Q. When you say Franc?
7 A. Franc Kos.
8 Q. Where did you go and did you go on the 10th of July?
9 A. Yes, we went in the direction of Bratunac. Am I supposed to tell
10 you which road we took?
11 Q. Is it the road that is marked here in the order?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't understand the
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. [No interpretation]
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So where did you arrive and where did you spend the night?
18 A. Well, up there, near Zeleni Jadar, some trenches, some forest,
19 some road ...
20 Q. The next day, the 11th of July, 1995, what do you remember at
21 first in the morning?
22 A. In the morning, there was this attack by the BH Army, and they
23 managed to recapture territory.
24 Q. After they managed to recapture some territory, what happened
1 A. Well, there was a counter-attack.
2 Q. Counter-attack?
3 A. Of our army.
4 Q. Did you enter Srebrenica on that day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How did you get going? How did you move to Srebrenica? Who did
7 you receive orders from?
8 A. From our commander, Milorad Pelemis.
9 Q. Were you part of one of the groups that entered Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes, the group of Luka Jokic.
11 Q. Number 16 in this document, that's Luka Jokic.
12 A. Yes. And I am right below him. He's a sergeant; I'm a soldier.
13 Q. Where did your group go?
14 A. Since I hadn't been in Srebrenica before the war, I didn't really
15 know the town. We started out from some plum orchard, that is where they
16 got this command from Mr. Pelemis. He said that we were given the
17 assignment to enter and that he was not satisfied with that but we had to
18 go there because we were given that order. We did not know about urban
19 warfare. He said that we should take care of one another, that we should
20 not take any risks, that we should not touch anything if we're not sure
21 that we can get through. If we come across some obstacle on the road,
22 that is to say, mines and stuff like that, that we should not touch that,
23 that some other unit would come, that we should try to go around that.
24 If we encounter soldier, that we should try to get him to surrender. If
25 he opens fire, that we should return fire. If civilians go out in front
1 of us to make a barricade or something or if they show up from their
2 houses, that we should avoid victims, casualties on either side at any
3 cost. Also, he said that we should be careful when entering because
4 there would be a change of clothing.
5 Q. Who would be changing clothes?
6 A. Soldiers of the BH Army. And that then they can be the same kind
7 of danger like when they wear uniforms.
8 Q. How far did you get?
9 A. Our objective was to reach the police station and we assumed that
10 that's where the commander was of this gentleman who commanded their
11 28th Division. I don't know what his rank was. His name is Naser Oric
12 and also that that we should blockade all important facilities, that we
13 should search the area, that we should not allow anyone to touch
14 documentation, that everything should be written down, registered,
15 recorded, that it should all be put in one place so that it could be
16 taken over by our army and our organs, the people who deal with this kind
17 of paperwork, intelligence, counter-intelligence, so that they could see
18 whether there were any traces of lists of prisoners, of torture, of
19 arrests, of interrogations of our people, our personnel who were taken
20 prisoner in the surrounding area around the protected area of Srebrenica.
21 We did all of that and that was all on the orders -- the boss's order;
22 that is to say, Pelemis's order.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The question, Witness, was how far did you get, and
24 then you told us in many many lines all kind of things. But the simple
25 question was how far did you get. Could you --
1 MR. LUKIC: We have. It's in the first line. Line 3 of page 41.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, that was the objective. Not the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the objective was, Mr. Lukic, and an
4 objective is not necessarily always what you achieve. So therefore --
5 MR. LUKIC: I apologise.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And if you thought that you had received an answer
7 in the first line, you should have stopped the witness.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Todorovic, how far did you reach with your group?
11 I don't know whether you heard my question. Could you please
12 tell us how far did you reach with your group on that occasion.
13 A. We went slowly and surely.
14 Q. Did you reach the police station that was your objective?
15 A. Yes, ultimately we did.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was leading.
17 MR. LUKIC: It was, but I tried to --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you can't try. Where -- how far did you get.
19 Insist on your question.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Who was there with you? Did you move along the
22 same road like everybody else who reached the same point, the police
24 A. No, no. Some went along the left flank, some along the right,
25 some were in the middle. We searched houses. It's not easy to enter a
1 town that had been held by the BiH army until an hour ago. You could
2 expect anything, an ambush, mines, explosives. You had to have eyes in
3 the back of your head. You did not dare touch anything.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, nobody asked you where you needed eyes.
5 The question was: Who was there with you. Could you tell us that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Luka Jokic was in my group,
9 Vlastimir Golijan, Milos Martic, Aleksandar Djuric, Goran Lulic,
10 Zoran Stupar. These are the names that come to mind.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Was there any resistance when you entered the
14 town of Srebrenica itself?
15 A. There was no major resistance. When I say resistance, I mean an
16 army countering another army. There were some shots, there were some
17 people whistling, but I wouldn't call that resistance.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you see any civilians in the town of Srebrenica
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What were the civilians doing? Were they standing, moving, what?
22 A. At first they didn't know who we were and who -- whose army we
23 were members of.
24 Q. That was at first. Then after that, did they realise that you
25 were the Serbian army?
1 A. Yes. At the end, they did. We told them that we had arrived in
2 Srebrenica, that they should not be afraid, that we would not harm them.
3 Nobody touched anybody. We moved them aside. We checked if somebody had
4 a uniform. They were behind our backs and we just continued on our way.
5 Q. Did the civilians move behind you or did they stay behind?
6 A. They were some 100 metres behind us or even more. But at that
7 moment, I could not measure any distances because I was too worried for
8 my own life.
9 Q. On the 11th of July, did you spend the entire day in Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then in the evening or the night between the 11th and the
12 12th where were you?
13 A. We withdrew to the entrance of Srebrenica, in the direction of
14 the Srebrenica-Zeleni Jadar road. We took up three houses there.
15 Q. When you arrived close to the police station in that part of
16 Srebrenica, did you see Milorad Pelemis there, your commander?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you know Drazan Erdemovic? Did you know him from before
19 the 11th of July, 1995?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see him had in that part of Srebrenica? In the centre of
22 Srebrenica, that is.
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. In the morning on the 12th, what did you do? Let's focus on the
25 12th of July then. Do you remember what you did on the 12th of July?
1 A. I got up, like every morning. I was with my troops. We had
3 Q. After breakfast, did you stay there, did you leave, how many of
4 you stayed behind?
5 A. Mr. Pelemis ordered me and the driver to get ready and to leave
6 for Dragasovaci.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: We got the village -- didn't -- I don't think the
9 interpreters quite got the correct village.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you again give the name of that village. And
11 please pronounce it slowly.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragasovac. Dragasovac.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you spell that for us?
15 A. D-r-a-g-a-s-o-v-a-c.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] And your fellow soldiers from your unit, what
20 about them after you left?
21 A. I asked my boss or, rather, my driver --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please speak more slowly. And could you
24 resume from where you said: "I asked my boss or, rather, my driver,"
25 and what did you then say?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to buy a souvenir or take
2 something as a souvenir. He laughed. He said go and find something, and
3 then I found a polystyrene sign of the 28th Division. I took it and then
4 I proceeded where Commander Pelemis had ordered me to go.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not an answer to your question.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. What happened to the soldiers in your unit after you left?
8 A. They stayed put, on stand by.
9 Q. Until when did they stay there?
10 A. I don't know exactly. They arrived at the base on that same day.
11 Q. And when it comes to your unit, how did they move to your base in
13 A. I arrived there first. I took one road and they arrived from two
14 directions, one group from Zeleni Jadar, the other across Milici.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is very important. Therefore,
16 we -- I would suggest that we take a break first because it's already
17 time and then continue after the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do that. At the same time, Mr. Lukic, it's
19 not appropriate to tell the witness that it's important what is coming.
20 First of all, we assume that everything you're asking the witness
21 is important. And otherwise you shouldn't ask him. And second, it can
22 be understood as a signal of something and that's -- rather refrain from
23 such comments.
24 We'll first take a break. We'll first ask that the witness to be
25 escorted out of the courtroom. We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'd
1 like to see you back after that.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: After the break for urgent personal reasons,
4 Judge Fluegge is unable to continue to hear this case. Judge Moloto and
5 myself have decided that it would be in the interests of justice to
6 continue hearing the case, and it is of short duration that Judge Fluegge
7 will be absent. We expect him to be back tomorrow morning.
8 We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may continue.
14 Witness, just to explain to you, you'll see own two Judges in
15 front of you. That is because the third Judge is for urgent personal
16 reasons absent, and we decided that we would continue to hear the case
17 for this short duration under Rule 15 bis of the Rules of Procedure and
18 Evidence. So that explains why we're just the two of us here.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Can I continue, Mr. Todorovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So how did the members of your unit travel? How did they arrive
24 after you?
25 A. They travelled well, and there were no problems until the moment
1 they left Vlasenica and arrived in front of Radosat [phoen].
2 Q. What happened there?
3 A. They were in an APC and that APC overturned by a bridge and ended
4 up 40 metres deep down in an abyss.
5 Q. As the APC was turning over, did somebody get injured or hurt?
6 A. While the AP was turning over, a man got killed. His name was
7 Dragan Kolje [phoen]. He was a member of the sabotage unit. Another man
8 was seriously injured. His name was --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, if we could -- a little slower on the
10 names. These are -- we didn't get the name correctly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we first -- could you please repeat the
12 name of the person that got killed. You said his name is Dragan and then
13 could you repeat his family name?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I first have to correct you.
15 He was not killed. He was a victim of the accident.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Koljivrat [Realtime
18 transcript read in error "Koljivat"] was the name of the man who was a
19 member of the sabotage unit who died in the accident.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't suggest that anything else happened to
21 him that than that he died in the accident.
22 Could you also give us the second name again. The person
23 injured. His name was?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Mladjo. I don't know
25 his family name. He was injured.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
3 Q. Just for the record, the family name was again misrecorded on
4 page 48, line 8. The witness said Koljivrat.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 Witness, is that how you spell the name of the person who died in
7 the accident?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Koljivrat.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then another person who was
11 injured. He was the driver of the APC. That person --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, is that someone different from Mladjo, or
13 is it ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A third person, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you give his name.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the third person who
17 was injured and who was the driver of the APC was Milorad Pelemis. He
18 was the commander of the detachment.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- please proceed. Next question please,
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you do, is the name of Mladjo, is
23 he -- can you point it out on this list of the sabotage detachment?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that his family name was
25 Filipovic and that he can be found under number 13.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Filipovic. But that doesn't sound like Mladjo.
2 It looks like 13 Mladenko.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, his nickname was Mladjo.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Since we're looking at this list anyhow, were you
6 familiar with those who were with you on this expedition?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Had you known them for a longer period of time being
9 together in the unit?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with them in the unit. And
11 when we were supposed to get together when they recruited us from
12 Bijeljina and Vlasenica, they were members of the Bijeljina group or the
13 Bijeljina detachment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but does that mean that you had known them for
15 how long, these other members of the group?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the moment they joined us.
17 That's when I met them all. Because I gave them uniforms, I fed them, I
18 provided them with sports kits and everything else.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was that for all of them at the same time or was it
20 at different times?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at different times. They did
22 not all arrive on the same day. They did not join the unit all on the
23 same day. However, having said that, they started serving in the unit on
24 the same day, all of them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And what day was that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they arrived in the unit?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For example, for Mr. Kalajdzic, found under
3 number 8, when would that have been?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They arrived in Bijeljina in 1994,
5 when the detachment was set up. I don't recall the exact date.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Since we have the document on the screen, D320,
10 the names from 1 through 15, were these people billeted in Bijeljina or
11 in Vlasenica?
12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading names.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I looking at the right list?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Nemanja Bogart was a member of the Vlasenica detachment, so he
17 was a signalsman. That's the order that's normally followed, officer and
18 then the signalsman. Djoko Vukovic was a driver Vlasenica, and
19 Milovan Milesic was a member of the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll stop you there. You're not invited to
21 describe these persons but the question is whether, the numbers 1 through
22 15, whether these people were billeted in Bijeljina or in Vlasenica.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just getting there. I wanted
24 to tell who was in Bijeljina, who was there. I just wanted to give you
25 that information.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that part of them were billeted in
2 Bijeljina and another part was billeted in Vlasenica?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And I leave it to Mr. Lukic whether he wants this to
5 be specified or whether we leave it to that.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] And then the names from 16 through 24, were they
9 mixed or did they all hail from one place?
10 A. Please bear with me. From number 16, Luka Jokic, to number 24,
11 Zoran Stupar, they are members of the Vlasenica detachment or platoon.
12 Q. Thank you. Just another clarification. On page 45, line 6 of
13 today's transcript, LiveNote, you mentioned a name where your platoon's
14 base was. Now I really have a problem. Is it Dragasovac or Dragasevac?
15 A. Dragasevac.
16 Q. Thank you. Koljivrat, your comrade-in-arms who lost his life,
17 who organised the funeral?
18 A. Me.
19 Q. Could you tell us briefly how it was that you organised that and
20 who went with you, if you remember?
21 A. The late Koljivrat was transferred to the Vlasenica medical
22 centre, just like the wounded Mladjo and the wounded Pelemis. This was
23 done by the soldiers who were there on the spot.
24 Q. Why did you transfer him to the Vlasenica medical centre?
25 A. Well, that has to be done whenever there's a death, a wounding.
1 A report has to be written up, why the man lost his life, so that some
2 day somebody would be held responsible.
3 Q. Did you get any documentation in relation to Koljivrat's death?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was he buried there in Vlasenica or was he transported further?
6 A. No. Since he hailed from Trebinje, he was buried at the
7 Koljivrat family graveyard in Trebinje.
8 Q. Who attended the funeral with you, if you remember?
9 A. The journey to Trebinje, I chose a few soldiers who went along
10 with me: Zeljko Vukovic, Nebojsa Gagic, Srdjan Brezo, Drazan Erdemovic.
11 Q. Very well.
12 A. I think there was another soldier. There are one or two more,
13 but I can't remember the names.
14 Q. On which date did the funeral take place?
15 A. Well, when I took him from hospital, that was the 13th. I
16 documented that with a certificate that I signed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We still do not know yet when the funeral took
18 place. That was the question.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The funeral took place on the 14th.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] July.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Until when did you stay in Trebinje?
24 A. We stayed in Trebinje after the funeral on the 14th, in the
25 afternoon. We stayed at his family, the Koljivrats.
1 Q. Did you go back and if so when?
2 A. Later. We stayed on for a while because that's some custom of
3 theirs. We were supposed to drink some wine that the father had prepared
4 for his son's wedding. Since he buried him on that day, then there was
5 no point in keeping the wine so he wanted to open that wine and to thank
6 us for having brought his son there and for the funeral.
7 Q. Approximately when did you leave Trebinje to Dragasevac?
8 A. Well, in the evening. I don't know what time it was. It was
10 Q. So when did you arrive in the base in Dragasevac?
11 A. Along the way, we stopped in Pale. That's where one of the
12 soldiers who was there with us, Srdjan Brezo, was from. So that he could
13 see them, because they had fled from Sarajevo.
14 Q. When did you arrive in Dragasevac, the base there?
15 A. Between 10.00 and 11.00.
16 Q. Which date?
17 A. The 15th.
18 Q. What did you do when you arrived in base? You, what did you do?
19 A. Well, I didn't need them for anything anymore, so I said at ease,
20 and then I went to the office to see whether the commander was there.
21 Q. And when you say "commander," which commander?
22 A. Pelemis.
23 Q. Did you find him in the office?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you see him on base that day?
1 A. No. Had I seen him, I would have given some of the gifts that
2 the Koljivrat family had sent him.
3 Q. After that, after that day, the 15th, when was it that you first
4 saw Pelemis; do you remember?
5 A. Well, I think somewhere around the 21st, the 22nd. I'm not sure
6 about the dates now. It's been a very long time. It's been 20 years
7 now. I cannot go on this way. I can just give approximate dates.
8 Q. The 21st, the 22nd. Which month, which year?
9 A. The month of July 1995.
10 Q. Could you tell us what happened after that in the base in
11 Dragasevac? Who arrived?
12 A. Well, some of the soldiers were free. Mr. Pelemis said who would
13 be free, who would be off, and who would be on duty, who would be
15 Q. Did anybody arrive? Somebody who was not a member of your
16 detachment --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't understand the
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Who was it that arrived? I'm sorry, the interpreters did not
21 hear your answer when I asked you about somebody who was not a member of
22 your detachment.
23 A. Mr. Pecanac came.
24 Q. Why did Pecanac come there? What was he there for?
25 A. He didn't address me personally. He addressed a soldier by the
1 name of Zoran.
2 Q. How did they speak? Did you hear the conversation?
3 A. While I was there, I was jotting something down. I was copying
4 something from a notebook that they were distributing while I was not
5 there. And first the conversation was normal, and then there was tension
6 on the rise.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, a part of this answer is pretty unclear
8 to me. Copying something from a notebook. What notebook? That they
9 were distributing. Who's "they"? Distributing among who? That all
10 needs to be clarified.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you heard that. You heard what Judge Orie is
13 interested in. So --
14 A. I was absent and there was a soldier there who took care of the
15 troops, breakfast, lunch, dinner, fuel, guards, activities in the
16 compound. He kept that internally, and I had to register that in the
17 unit log-book, in the registry so that I could finally complete the
19 JUDGE ORIE: What now was there that was distributed? Because
20 you said: "I was copying something from a notebook that they were
21 distributing." Who's "they"?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The soldier, Milesic Milovan, who
23 was standing in for me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So it's "he" and not "they," if I understand you
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was this group of soldiers
2 there that had to eat, sleep. Somebody had to feed them. If ten tins
3 are issued, then that has to be written down.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So distribution then refers to food and similar
5 things to be distributed among the soldiers. Is that how I have to
6 understand it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. When this discussion was over between Zoran and -- actually,
11 please, the record does not reflect this. You did mention the last name
12 of this person, so in line 16, page 55 of LiveNote, the name of Zoran is
13 referred to.
14 A. Obrenovic.
15 Q. When that conversation was over between Zoran Obrenovic and
16 Pecanac, did you talk to Obrenovic?
17 A. I talked to Obrenovic afterwards.
18 Q. What did Obrenovic say to you? What was the subject of their
20 A. That he needed a group of soldiers.
21 Q. What else did he say? Did he tell you what he needed a group of
22 soldiers for?
23 A. For some task.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we just make it clear who the "he "is that
1 we're speaking of?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I'm sorry.
3 Q. [Interpretation] In line 9, I said -- I mean, it's on this page:
4 "What did Obrenovic say to you?"
5 And then after that, I said "he." So could you please tell us
6 what did Obrenovic say to you? What was the subject of the conversation
7 between him and Pecanac?
8 A. Soldier Obrenovic told me verbatim that Mr. Pecanac - and he
9 said, "this guy" - is asking me for some men so that they could go
10 somewhere on some task.
11 Q. Did Obrenovic tell you then what kind of task?
12 A. No.
13 Q. This conversation between Obrenovic and Pecanac, was it one
14 conducted in a friendly atmosphere or not?
15 A. Well, no. Both of them are a bit brazen.
16 Q. So was it a peaceful conversation?
17 A. At first it looked like a normal conversation and afterwards,
18 tensions went up. This guy was yelling, "You have to," and this other
19 one was yelling, "I won't. You know who it is that is issuing orders
20 here in this compound. You go to Pelemis. If he allows it, I will carry
21 out the task, and if he doesn't allow it, I will not do it. You can
22 shoot me," but that's, anyway, how it went on, and that's how it ended.
23 Q. This conversation of theirs, was it attended by Pelemis?
24 A. No. Because Pecanac would not have anything to say that -- in
25 that case, or Zoran either.
1 Q. What was the main argument of Zoran Obrenovic? Why did he not
2 want to obey Pecanac?
3 A. Well, he's not the commander of the sabotage detachment. It's
4 not Pecanac. It is Milorad Pelemis, and he's the one who makes decisions
5 about everything. And he issues orders.
6 Q. So did some people from your detachment from Dragasevac leave
7 after that quarrel with Pecanac?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were they issued any equipment and did they take it with them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who issued the equipment to them?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. What was the vehicle they took?
14 A. The van that I took to Trebinje.
15 Q. Who packed the equipment and put it into the van?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. What did you pack into the van?
18 A. PKT, 8 millimetres -- 84 millimetres.
19 Q. What else did you put into the van?
20 A. Ammunition for PKT.
21 Q. Did you pack anything else?
22 A. M64 called Zolja; hand-held launcher.
23 Q. Anything else? Do you remember?
24 A. A small mortar, 60 millimetres.
25 Q. Did you pack any explosives?
1 A. I did. These so-called claymore mines. MRUDs, that's also
3 Q. Do you know how many MRUDs you packed?
4 A. Just a moment, I'll remember. I think six. Around six.
5 Q. Did anybody examine this equipment?
6 A. I packed food for 48 hours in the field, the so-called SDO.
7 Bags; sleeping bags, that is. Also some water.
8 Q. Is that all?
9 A. That would be it. If I've forgotten something, I just cannot
11 Q. Did anybody check that equipment?
12 A. Of course. Second Lieutenant Franc Kos examined it, and I asked
13 him whether he was satisfied with it, and he said: "Is it the way it's
14 usually done?" And he said yes, and there you go. He -- here's a sheet
15 of paper. So that's documentation since -- and all of that was taken,
16 and I registered all of that and it's all in the archives. And I did a
17 proper hand-over, and all of that is there and has been there since the
18 end of the war.
19 Q. I see here that mortars are being issued and mines and MRUDs.
20 Did Kos have any objection in terms of what you had packed, this
21 equipment, these explosives?
22 A. No. He always wanted to make sure that he had everything, and he
23 wanted land-mines. And that's good because when a unit is somewhere and
24 then there is protection 50 or 100 metres away, then if somebody were to
25 step on this land-mine, then the unit would realise that there was
1 somebody coming. And that's what everybody does in the field. If people
2 want to survive, then they have to take care. Everybody does that, let
3 alone saboteurs like the members of our unit. It would really be a
4 disgrace if somebody were to catch them by surprise.
5 Q. What was your impression at that moment? Did Kos know what the
6 goal of the mission was?
7 A. No, he did not know at that moment.
8 Q. According to you, who was the leader of the group?
9 A. The person with the highest rank. That was Franc Kos, the most
10 experienced saboteur and the person with the highest rank.
11 Q. Did Drazan Erdemovic left with that group?
12 A. No, he didn't have to. However, he said everybody was there. He
13 had to serve for three more days. He volunteered to join the unit.
14 Q. What about you? Did you know what the group's task was?
15 A. I didn't know then. I didn't learn even much later.
16 Q. According to you, the rest of the men in the group who left your
17 base, did they know what the goal of the mission was?
18 A. No.
19 Q. According to your best knowledge, what were they told?
20 A. I didn't ask anybody nor did I have the right to inquire. I know
21 that they left, they took the road towards Sekovici. Those lines were
22 all controlled by our military. All the way up to Zvornik. Srebrenica
23 had fallen, so I believe that they were sent to set up an ambush or on a
24 reconnoitring mission to reinforce a group, or perhaps one of the
25 officers were in the field and they -- and they needed to provide
1 security because they didn't have anybody else.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, why do you believe that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they took the weapons and
4 equipment that are usually taken on a field mission. There was no
5 indication that their task would be behind the lines. They didn't take
6 any explosives, they did not ask for any special equipment that
7 [indiscernible] could use only on repeater that we as a unit had with
8 protected lines and encryption devices. I thought that perhaps they
9 would be providing security for a road or perhaps they would spend a
10 night somewhere in the field. I had just arrived. I didn't have a clue
11 what was going on.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it was pure speculation.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't say that it was
14 speculation. It was about sending a group on a mission. Such a group
15 had to be provided with everything, food, water, materiel, equipment,
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, but that doesn't explain what the purpose of
18 that mission would be. Because whatever the mission is, you need food
19 anyhow, you need water anyhow, isn't it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Materiel and equipment
21 have -- had to be given to every group on a mission. When a group works
22 behind the lines, then different materiel and equipment are given to
23 them, explosive, Motorolas, a different repeater. It was to be assumed
24 that they were not going to be -- or, rather, that they were not being
25 sent into the depth of the enemy positions but that rather they would
1 stay close to our military positions and lines.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic. And may I -- you're
3 coming close to your one and a half hours.
4 MR. LUKIC: I think have some time left.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Limited. I asked I think --
6 MR. LUKIC: What is it, if you know?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, when I asked Mr. Registrar a while ago, he
8 said 15 minutes left and that was approximately 10 minutes ago, so that
9 would mean, if I'm generous, six, seven minutes; otherwise just five.
10 MR. LUKIC: I'm closing to an end, so I hope I will be in time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I expect you to do that.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, that group left. And what did
13 you do then?
14 A. I stayed with another group of people, and we set out for
16 Q. What did you do in Srebrenica?
17 A. We left a lorry behind. Its battery was down so we took two
18 mobile batteries. It was marked by our initials. Nobody touched it.
19 Still, we inspected it. We wanted to make sure that nobody had planted
20 anything on it and we wanted to prevent casualties.
21 Q. Did you transport anything on that truck?
22 A. That was returned to the unit.
23 Q. Did you gather livestock around Srebrenica and for how long?
24 A. Yes. On that day, on the following day, I went to Srebrenica.
25 I'm not hiding anything. I didn't take anything that was not used by the
1 unit or in the office.
2 Q. At that time, were there any renegade Muslim groups consisting of
3 their combatants anywhere around the area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you make contact with them? Was there shooting?
6 A. No, no. But on the road to Milici, somewhere below Milici they
7 killed a married couple. They were in hiding. They did not want to be
8 discovered. And I think that in Kupusina, perhaps some 20 days later,
9 four Serbian lads were killed. I don't know how they found themselves
10 there, whether they were soldiers or not. In any case, there was an
11 errant group that had -- were captured later. They were put on trial. I
12 believe that they were in Zvornik, and then they were released from there
13 I think. There were proceedings against them, but I don't know what the
14 outcome was. In any case, they were captured, none of them were injured.
15 I don't know what was going on there. I couldn't care less, to be
17 Q. Just a moment, please.
18 Mr. Todorovic, thank you. That was all we had for you.
19 A. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
21 Mr. Todorovic, you'll now be cross-examined. And there's still
22 ten minutes to go before we take another break. You'll be cross-examined
23 by Mr. McCloskey. You find him to your right. Mr. McCloskey is counsel
24 for the Prosecution.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Todorovic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. And we know each other from your prior testimonies in this
6 case -- in this Tribunal, I should say.
7 A. Yes. I was your witness.
8 Q. You testified as the Prosecution in the Todorovic case -- excuse
9 me, in the Popovic case, the Tolimir case, and the Karadzic case, did you
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us, you've mentioned this -- this group that Pecanac
13 was organising, that you Erdemovic went, and you say Franc Kos went as
14 well. Who else besides Franc Kos and Erdemovic went in this group?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name slowly.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name you mentioned a
17 second ago.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brano Gojkovic. Stanko Savanovic.
19 Boris Popov. Six, seven, or eight men. I can't remember everybody. It
20 was 20 years ago, but I'm sure of the three that I mentioned.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. Well --
23 A. If you have a name, jog my memory. I'll confirm.
24 Q. Marko?
25 A. Boskic, yes. And then Erdemovic joined them. Erdemovic
1 volunteered. Nobody selected him. He volunteered.
2 Q. And did you later learn what that group had actually been doing
3 when they came back from their mission?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever learn what that group had been doing on the 15th
6 and/or 16th of July?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what was that?
9 A. When Mr. Erdemovic was arrested or he surrendered - I don't know
10 what happened - and then he told the truth about everything that they had
12 Q. All right. And have you had a chance to speak to the Defence in
13 this case before testifying today?
14 A. Here?
15 Q. Well, either here or somewhere else.
16 A. I came straight from Montenegro to the room. I never even took a
17 stroll around the town.
18 Q. Did you have a chance to talk to Mr. Lukic or any of his
19 associates before testifying today?
20 A. Only when they first asked me whether I could come here and
21 testify at the Tribunal on behalf of General Mladic.
22 Q. All right. And who was Pecanac, to your knowledge?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue.
24 Does this mean, Witness, that you didn't speak with any of the
25 Defence team members after you arrived in The Hague?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I just spoke to the member of
2 the Tribunal services who took me -- brought me here from the airport and
3 received me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Victims and Witness Section, I take it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. These people, they
6 waited for me at Amsterdam airport, they brought me to the hotel, and
7 then they brought me to the Tribunal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: While there is --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: While there's an intervention, Mr. McCloskey. At
12 page 65, line 20, you asked the witness what was that with reference to
13 what it is that the group had done. He never answered this question. He
14 then told you that Erdemovic was arrested or surrendered and then he told
15 the truth about everything, but your question was what was that that they
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
18 Q. Can you clear up this for us, Witness? What was it that you
19 learned that this group had done when they went on the mission that you
20 have spoken of briefly today?
21 A. When Erdemovic, a member of the 10th Sabotage Unit, surrendered
22 answer and when he arrived here and when he provided a statement, at that
23 moment I realised they that had done things that I was never aware of and
24 that the other soldiers who were not group members also didn't know
1 JUDGE ORIE: Still not answered.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. So what you mean when I ask you when did you learn about what
4 that group had done, had you learned that they had gone and killed many
5 hundreds of people based on what Erdemovic told you -- or excuse me, what
6 Erdemovic had said in this courtroom?
7 A. Yes, Erdemovic said that he had participated in the killings of
8 Muslims, i.e., Bosniaks, from Srebrenica.
9 Q. And you named this [sic] people that left on that mission just
10 now, and is it your understanding that Erdemovic had named many if not
11 the same people?
12 A. I believe that he mentioned one group of people, the same group I
13 did. I don't know if Erdemovic went on other missions when I was not
14 there and whether another group had gone on any missions before Erdemovic
15 and I spoke about that. I don't know. I did not have the right to ask
16 any questions of those soldiers, nor would they have dared give me any
17 answer, of course.
18 Q. And you've testified that a Pecanac came by and wanted
19 Zoran Obrenovic to get a group to go on this -- go on a mission. Who is
20 Pecanac, as far as you knew?
21 A. Pecanac was an officer. He was a member of the Main Staff and
22 sometimes he would introduce himself as the chief of security. On other
23 days he would introduce him as aide-de-camp. It depended on the day. I
24 didn't socialise with him. I don't know much about
25 them [as interpreted]. He was an officer, I was a soldier. I was a
1 member of another unit that had its commander, that respected its
2 commander and obeyed him without any questions asked. And Pecanac, as
3 far as I'm concerned, I could just give him a glass of water if he got
4 thirsty. That was it. That's the long and the short of the whole story.
5 Q. You've testified before about his connection with General Mladic.
6 Tell us about that?
7 A. He -- I saw and I heard that he was a member of security. I
8 don't know whether the general and him spoke, what they spoke about. And
9 as far as I'm personally concerned in my unit, he didn't have anything to
10 do with us. And whatever happened was of his own accord. Nobody issued
11 any orders. The general didn't and Pelemis didn't. Somebody should
12 inform at least the command in Bijeljina where there was a desk officer
13 on duty. Somebody should have picked up a phone and should have asked
14 somebody if --
15 Q. Mr. Todorovic, this is very simple question and answer. You've
16 described him as General Mladic's aide-de-camp or adjunct haven't you?
17 A. Yes, that's he introduced himself to me. So I stick by that.
18 Sometimes he would say that he was the chief of security. I don't know
19 what he was. I don't even know what the term "adjutant" means, whether
20 it's a rank or something else. I just remember the term that he used.
21 Q. And when you say chief of security, do you mean personal-type of
22 security or are you talking chief of security a la security officers for
23 the Drina Corps or the Main Staff or somewhere else?
24 A. He could not be in the Drina Corps. He was affiliated with the
25 Main Staff. I don't know whether he [indiscernible] for the personnel,
1 the barracks, or the general personally. Obviously, each general in the
2 army had his security. I don't know who it was in this case. That's how
3 he introduced himself to me. I didn't ask for any IDs. I just take that
4 at its face value.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. McCloskey.
7 Before we take that break, I've got one question for you,
8 Witness, which is the following. Pelemis who was in command was absent.
9 You said: I saw him only back after the 21st or 22nd of July. Who
10 replaced him?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it should have
12 been either the Slovenian or Luka Jokic. Our territory was in Vlasenica,
13 so it should have been Luka Jokic. But he wasn't there. I don't know
14 where he was. Maybe he was in the corps or perhaps at home. Maybe he
15 had gone home to change his clothes or something. I don't know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Who do you say you don't know where he was? You
17 mean Pelemis?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about Jokic. Pelemis
19 had been injured before that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now if Pelemis is supposed to be replaced by Jokic,
21 who would be replacing Jokic, if Jokic wasn't there?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If something had to be done within
23 the barracks perimeter, for example, receiving an order or mail, it would
24 have been me, if I was there. And as for the rest, it had to be left
25 with the person at sentry duty who would then inform Commander Pelemis
1 either by phone or by the corps mail. I don't know how but I know that
2 one could send that information by phone or by a different communications
3 device. It really didn't matter much that he was at hospital. He could
4 have still been informed and kept abreast.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you followed the conversation between Pecanac
6 and Obrenovic, if I understood you well. You described that
7 conversation. What was your position --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Pelemis, Obrenovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think I said Obrenovic but --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Pecanac.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now what do you think about what they
14 discussed? Should a group be assembled and be sent on a mission, or
15 should you, you were -- at that moment, you said you should replace
16 Jokic. Were you considering that it should not -- that what Pecanac had
17 requested should not be done or that it should be done?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he had asked me, I would not
19 have allowed him to do that. I would have sent him packing and I would
20 have asked him to bring back a document. I would have reacted
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, who ordered you to prepare all the ammunition
23 that you packed? Who did order you to do that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the vehicle pulled over in
25 front of the garage, the Slovenian got out. And when he said combat kit,
1 I knew. I knew exactly what I should do just like every other time
2 because I was in control of everything.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Who was the Slovenian?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was either a
5 lieutenant. He was a member of the sabotage unit, just like me. He was
6 Slovenian by origin. I don't know how come he was a member of our unit
7 and I never researched that. He was a member of the Army of
8 Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did he order you to pack all this ammunition and
10 have it loaded?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me prepare everything that
12 we need for a mission, and I set out to carry out the order immediately.
13 And he signed the request.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he was superior to you?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment he was, indeed.
16 Because all I went by were the ranks of my officers. I was not at all
17 interested in the ranks of others. Pecanac certainly could not have
18 issued me any orders because he was not a member of my unit. He did not
19 have the right to give me orders. He did not have authority over my
20 unit, nothing.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But you accepted an order from the Slovenian of
22 which you said a minute ago:
23 "... he was either a lieutenant. A member of the sabotage unit,
24 just like me."
25 You accepted his orders. Is that your testimony?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave it a bit of a thought. I
2 wanted to avoid any conflicts. I thought, ah, well, I should comply with
3 requests of both sides. I first wanted them to talk to Pelemis, but
4 everything was done in a haste, so I said, well, come as it may and to
5 hell with it. If I'd personally been asked and consulted, I would never
6 have allowed that to happen. If the mail had arrived in my hands, if it
7 contained an order, I would have acted differently. I would have called
8 everything off for at least half an hour pending a final solution,
9 because things were done without any papers, orders. It wasn't preceded
10 by any telephone conversation. The guy came into the barracks, he
11 wanted --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, a minute ago you told us that if Pelemis
13 was not there it was Jokic who would replace him. Then I asked you who
14 would be in charge if Jokic wasn't there, and you said it was you
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pecanac never ever spoke to me
17 about any tasks or missions. I did not interfere. I would have
18 interfered if I had gotten an order from the Main Staff sent to Pelemis,
19 from Pelemis to me, and then whatever was contained in that order, I
20 should have obeyed that and I would have.
21 JUDGE ORIE: At the very end, you assisted in providing the
22 ammunition and whatever was needed for that mission.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter to
25 2.00. But you first follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Sir, The Slovene, that was the nickname for Franc Kos; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And tell us the first name of Pecanac?
10 A. I think his name was Dragomir.
11 Q. And what was his rank back in July 1995, as far as you knew?
12 A. A captain or a major. One of the two. Major, rather. Maybe ...
13 Q. All right. And you've acknowledged you testified at the Popovic
14 case, and I'm going to take us there and ask you a question or two about
15 Pecanac's position, something that you told us back then.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter 32552. Should be page 25 in e-court.
17 Q. And this will just be English, so I'll read it slowly. And on
18 line 6, you say:
19 "After a while, Mr. Pecanac arrived."
20 And you're asked:
21 "That's not a name we've heard before. Can you tell us who
22 Mr. Pecanac is, a name during your testimony, you didn't mention him
23 before, who he is?"
24 And your answer was:
25 "He was the head of security, general's aide-de-camp. I don't
1 know how I should put it. He was always with him. He carried out his
2 orders and looked after his security and he had some troops who provided
3 security with him."
4 And this reference to "him" and "he," that's General Mladic, I
5 take it?
6 A. Well, that's how he introduced himself to us when we saw him in
7 the field and --
8 Q. And my question is: But your reference to "he" in this question
9 was you were referring to that Pecanac was General Mladic's aide?
10 A. Yes, that's how he introduced himself to us and I accept that. I
11 mean, that's what he said and that's what I'm saying to you and that's
12 what I said to you.
13 Q. You also say in this answer: "He was always with him," meaning
14 General Mladic was always with him. So ...
15 A. Well, General Mladic cannot be with him. He was supposed to be
16 near General Mladic. All the officers of our army liked to be close to
17 General Mladic.
18 Q. Yes. But in this sentence, you tell the Court that Pecanac was
19 always with General Mladic; correct?
20 A. Nearby, by him, around him. Now, whatever all that means. He
21 said that he was there. Maybe he was just carrying papers around. I
22 wasn't there by Pecanac and the general.
23 Q. You also say that Pecanac carried out Mladic's orders. So as far
24 as you knew, Pecanac would carry out General Mladic's orders; correct?
25 A. Of course. He wouldn't be carrying out my orders. I carried out
1 the orders of my commander too, whatever it was that he ordered.
2 Q. And you have in your various statements and testimonies mentioned
3 another senior officer that came by the -- Dragasevac on the 15th that
4 day, with Pecanac, haven't you?
5 A. Mr. Popovic?
6 Q. Yes. Did Popovic come by with Pecanac that day on the 15th to
8 A. Judging by the car and the licence plates, it's a car of the
9 Drina Corps. He drove it, or his driver, and I claim with full
10 responsibility to this day that Popovic did not enter the compound. His
11 vehicle was outside the compound, say, about 30 metres away. But I know
12 that vehicle.
13 Q. And did -- you've always said that a -- a gate officer reported
14 who was in that vehicle to you; is that right?
15 A. The officer from the gate said that Mr. Popovic's vehicle --
16 well, maybe that was a mistake in interpretation or translation. But I
17 never said that he reported to Mr. Popovic personally. He only could
18 have greeted Mr. Pecanac when entering.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Todorovic, whatever you testified in this Court
20 can you verified on the basis of the audio recordings, and then the
21 interpretation can be verified as well.
22 Is it your position that you never said that he reported to
23 Mr. Popovic personally? Is that your position? Because then we'll
24 verify it. If you insist --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who's "he"? I don't insist. But I
1 just want to know who "he" is.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I leave this in your hands because I
3 do not know whether he reported to Mr. Popovic, whether that is exactly
4 what was said or not. I just wanted to intervene to tell the witness
5 that whatever he thinks is caused by an ill-interpretation, that we can
6 verify it. I leave it in your hands.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, let's see if can I help you. We're going to go to the
9 next page of your Popovic testimony back in 2007, and you may remember I
10 asked you this question on line 18:
11 "All right. And did you actually see Mr. Popovic outside the
12 gate with his car or did someone just tell you that he was there?"
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This should be page 27.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Okay. That was my question. And your answer:
17 "The gate-keeper told us that Officer Popovic was outside. This
18 person who was working, providing security for the base. I suppose that
19 he must have seen his car and he must have assumed that he was there.
20 I'm sure he knew him."
21 And then if we go to page 40 in e-court, Judge Kwon asked you on
22 line 11:
23 "Mr. Todorovic, you told us that you heard from the gate-keeper
24 that Mr. Popovic was outside; is that correct?
25 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes."
1 A. No, misinterpretation. It cannot be an officer at the gate. It
2 can be a gate-keeper. It is the gate-keeper that told me that Popovic's
3 vehicle was parked about 20 metres away from the gate. We did not have
4 an officer at the gate.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the issue is not whether it was an officer but
6 whether the person at the gate, the gate-keeper, that you heard from that
7 person that Mr. Popovic was outside, which you --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that from him, and
9 then I paid attention to the vehicle and I saw the vehicle. It was a
10 cherry-coloured Golf of the Drina Corps, Drina Corps licence plates. He
11 did not get out of the car, but I know the vehicle of the Drina Corps
12 that Mr. Popovic drove, said that it was his vehicle. It should have
13 been him or his driver or someone.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But you were told that it was Mr. Popovic and you
15 saw a car which supported --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did not walk up. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. And getting back to your account when Pecanac told
20 Zoran Obrenovic to get a group of people together, and you say
21 Zoran Obrenovic refused. And then you've told us before that Pecanac
22 focused his energies on another soldier and issued him the same
23 directive. Can you tell us who that was?
24 A. Brano Gojkovic.
25 Q. And what did Pecanac said to Brano Gojkovic?
1 A. Well, I guess the same thing he said to Zoran.
2 Q. I don't want you to guess. What did he say? You were there. We
3 don't need exact words.
4 A. Well, issued him the same order that he had issued to
5 Mr. Obrenovic.
6 Q. And I'm -- Brano Gojkovic knew who Pecanac was as you did, did he
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you've also told us that you've heard Pecanac talking about
10 another senior officer. Did Pecanac -- did you hear Pecanac say anything
11 about Beara?
12 A. That he should see him, meet up with him.
13 Q. So explain that, more detail.
14 A. Well, if he were to go with that group, then he should meet with
15 Officer Beara on the Sekovici -- no, Dragasevac-Sekovici-Zvornik road.
16 No. Either, in Sekovici or in Zvornik. I don't know exactly. I wasn't
17 present. I don't know where they met. Maybe it was Zvornik or Sekovici
18 where they met up. I didn't ask Pecanac where he met up with him.
19 Q. So Pecanac was ordering Gojkovic to take this group and meet up
20 with Beara.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you've also talked about being a logistics officer and
23 providing ammunition and some other materiels. Do you remember providing
24 an actual handwritten document of some materiel?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have 65 ter 05676.
2 Q. Can you tell us what this is?
3 A. This is a document that was written by soldier Milesic, Milovan.
4 This is an internal paper that he got --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
6 his answer. It was not understood.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have already said the
9 witness is unintelligible. Could he please repeat his answer. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, knowing that you're on the English
12 channel I thought that you would take action. I left it to you.
13 Witness, could you restart your answer. Perhaps, Mr. McCloskey,
14 if you would repeat the question, that would certainly assist.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Could I just ask you what this was.
17 A. This was an internal paper that was used by soldier Milesic,
18 Milovan on the 14th when I was not there, and he wrote down what it was
19 that he issued to some people.
20 As for this ammunition, I don't know who he gave it to. I just
21 registered it in my archives. And then down it says fish, pate, spam,
22 paprika as usual. Now, was this issued to the kitchen? And then this
23 first thing. Was it issued to some soldier as welfare?
24 Q. Slow down. We're having a hard time translating you.
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. And this is a document that you have provided, is it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this is material that went to the group with Brano Gojkovic
4 on the 15th of July?
5 A. No, I issued everything on the 15th of July, whatever was needed.
6 Fish, cold cuts. This is not something that should be sent with anybody
7 on a field mission. Milovan Milesic, this is his handwriting. This is
8 an internal document. This is to cover the things that were issued from
9 the storage. I copied that into my records. At the end of war, I handed
10 over all of my records. I this is not my handwriting. I can prove that.
11 Q. Let's go to the next page.
12 A. The paper, actually, is mine.
13 Q. Yes, we see special police detachment Sekovici on the top. Was
14 that the unit that you were part of for a while and you weren't happy?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so this notepad that this was written on was yours, as you
17 just said?
18 A. It is possible that I brought it over from the unit. Well, I'm
19 sure that I did, and I gave it to him to write on it. This is an
20 internal document. I don't know if you know the meaning of the word
21 "internal." I used this paper to make official records, and then when my
22 duty is over, I hand the records over to in my command.
23 Q. And looking at the 16 July entries, I'm interested in the
24 ammunition for M-84, 1200 pieces. Is that the big machine-gun you spoke
25 about giving the group of Brano Gojkovic in your direct testimony?
1 A. This is ammo for M-84, which is a machine-gun.
2 Q. And that's the same -- for the same kind of machine-gun that you
3 gave to the Brano Gojkovic group that you spoke about in direct
4 testimony; correct?
5 A. I gave one to The Slovenian on the 15th. This is not my
6 handwriting. It is my notepad, it belongs to my unit, but not my
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this into evidence.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7379, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Now, I'd like to go very briefly back to 1992. You said you were
13 in the Birac Brigade; is that right?
14 A. Yes, the Birac Brigade.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we have 65 ter 32578.
16 Q. And who was the commander of your brigade, if you recall?
17 A. He was a captain by rank or perhaps it was even higher.
18 Svetozar Andric was his name.
19 Q. Take a look at this, what's identified as a document from
20 10 July 1992 as an early promotion for Svetozar Andric, son of Petko.
21 Was that your commander that you're talking about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you recall him getting a promotion while you were there?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7380, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And who was your battalion commander while you were at the
6 Birac Brigade.
7 A. I was in our Pelemis unit up to the 1st of September. That's
8 where I was assigned.
9 Q. In the village of Pelemisi?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Milorad Pelemis has told us that during the summer of 1992
12 they held some women captive there at Pelemisi. Is that true?
13 A. Yes. They were not held captive. They were brought in order to
14 be exchanged for some people in Kladanj. Stanimir, who was the police
15 commander, tried to do that because one of the policemen from his unit
16 who was also -- actually, he was an inspector, had been taken prisoner
17 over there, so he wanted to use those women and exchange them for that
19 Q. So were they there voluntarily?
20 A. I don't know how they came. I didn't ask too many questions. I
21 had a different job. I guarded the line. That was not my
22 responsibility. That was not my call. I did not attend the negotiations
23 between him and the other gentleman whose family name was also Pelemis.
24 His first name was Stanimir and he was the police commander.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have 65 ter 31647.
1 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for it.
2 Witness, you say, well, you are asking too many questions to you.
3 But you said they were not held captive, so you claim to have some
4 knowledge about whether they were there voluntarily on whether they were
5 not free to move?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in one part of the village.
7 I would go to the command from time to time. Everybody moved around.
8 There was no school there. There was no prison there. There were no
9 bars on any windows. All the houses were just normal village houses.
10 Not too big.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see those women?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you see them?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the water well, in the centre of
15 the village.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that they were there to be
17 exchanged. Is it your view that if you are held ready for exchange that
18 you are free to just go your own way or is it ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We tried to establish
20 communications with the -- the other municipality of Kladanj using an
21 R -- RUP-station. I don't know how they did that, why they did that. I
22 was not part of that. But I know that they were there. They were doing
23 laundry by the well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to my question, but please
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. And were they fraternising with your young Serb soldiers?
3 A. What do you mean "fraternising"?
4 Q. Were they enjoying their company? Were the women enjoying the
5 company of your Serb soldiers?
6 A. I don't know. I can't understand the word "enjoy." What do you
7 mean, did they have cups of coffee, did they share food with them? What
8 do you mean by that? I mean, the -- maybe socialising, what we call
9 socialising in Bosnia is sitting down over a cup of coffee and joking and
10 talking, and things like that.
11 Q. Yes, were the women socialising with the Serb soldiers, one or
13 A. There were some older geezers that guarded them. They had
14 coffees with them. Momir Gazevic [phoen], he was one of the locals.
15 Well, his name was also Pelemis. And there was another, Sadaj [phoen], I
16 don't know what his name was, Ratko, it was a long time ago.
17 Q. All right. Let's look at this document. This is just my final
19 A. Those houses were on the front line.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Those -- they were guarded, if I understand
21 you well?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Just looking at this -- I'd like to ask you about this Slobodan
1 Pajic, son of Milos. Did you know him?
2 A. Where from? There were a lot of Pajics there.
3 Q. You can see that he was a battalion commander for your brigade,
4 the Birac Brigade in August of 1992. Not saying he had to do anything
5 with Pelemisi. I just want to know if you remember him?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I see in the English translation that
8 a person by the name of Slobodan Pajic -- oh, yes. I see it on the
9 right-hand side it's slightly different from what we see on the left-hand
10 side. But it's a proposal for appointment of commanding officers. Then
11 I think the appropriate question to be put to the witness would be
12 whether he is aware that a Slobodan Pajic who was described as a clerical
13 officer for logistic operations and deputy commander for logistics was
14 proposed for being appointed as, well, as infantry battalion commander.
15 But, again, it's -- the text of the document is not entirely clear to me.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, that's one reason why I was asking him.
17 Q. We see here, sir, that it says "currently Vlasenica infantry
18 battalion commander," and we see the date of this.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the date of it or is that the date of
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, just the date up -- 23 August 1992 is the
22 date of the document.
23 Q. So just in looking at this, does this look like a document from
24 your brigade?
25 A. It says that this is from the Vlasenica Battalion and the
1 battalion of the Birac Brigade was in Trnovo, if that's the same
2 Slobodan Pajic, son of Milos.
3 Q. How about Rade Bogunovic? You'd certainly have heard it from
5 MR. LUKIC: I know that my colleague McCloskey is passionate
6 about his work, but our working day is over.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your working day is not over yet, but court
8 time is over, Mr. Lukic, that's not the same.
9 Mr. McCloskey, indeed, my fellow Judge Moloto also hinted that
10 I'd forgotten about the time. So did you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence. I have nothing
13 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further in cross.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's all.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I can get this into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P738 --
19 MR. LUKIC: Only if it's --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
21 Could you please, Mr. Registrar, could you repeat the number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 31647 is Exhibit P7381, Your
24 MR. LUKIC: Before you admit, I would object.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is -- yes, you would like to object.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. First, this witness has no
2 knowledge about this and there is no stamp, there is no any kind of
3 verification of this document. At least what we have. I have only one
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, any answer to that.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was going through the document to check his
7 familiarity. We can do it tomorrow.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would have you further questions for the witness
9 anyhow Mr. -- I don't --
10 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you switch on your microphone.
12 MR. LUKIC: 10, 15 minutes probably.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the witness cannot be excused yet.
14 Therefore, Mr. McCloskey, if you would pay attention to this
15 tomorrow to start with, and then have you an opportunity to re-examine
16 the witness.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I -- just out of the realistic
18 thought that perhaps I may think of a few more questions overnight, if
19 you could leave me with a little bit of flexibility. I won't be long and
20 I hope not to have any.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not intervene in -- when our working days
22 end, I also do not intervene in what you do at night as far as thinking
23 of further questions. We'll see tomorrow what will come up and you'll
24 have an opportunity at least to put a limited number of questions
25 tomorrow morning.
1 Mr. Todorovic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow, but I first
2 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way
3 with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony given today
4 or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.
5 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. You may now
6 follow the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise to all those who suffered from me not
9 I'm looking at the clock consistently, and luckily enough both Mr. Lukic
10 and my fellow Judge Moloto did a better job in that respect.
11 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
12 12th of May, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of May,
15 2015, at 9.30 a.m.