Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35332

 1                           Monday, 11 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced.  Therefore, could the witness be

12     escorted in the courtroom.

13             Mr. Weber.  Oh, you are just -- you're just ready to start.

14             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  That's correct.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kecman.  I'd like to remind you

18     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

19     beginning of your testimony.

20             Mr. Lukic, you have concluded your examination-in-chief.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I did.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, Mr. Weber, if you're ready to

23     cross-examine the witness, you may proceed.

24             And you'll be cross-examined, Mr. Kecman, by Mr. Weber.

25     Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 35333

 1             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 2                           WITNESS: JANKO KECMAN [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kecman.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   Sir, today I'd first like to start by clarifying each of your

 8     assignment between the year of 1991 to 1993.

 9             You were assigned to a squadron based at the Zeljava airport

10     between 28 June 1991 and 20 October 1991; correct?

11        A.   I was not a squadron commander.  I was just a -- the commander of

12     one part of that squadron.

13        Q.   Sir, please listen to my questions carefully.  They'll be -- I'll

14     try to keep them very clear.  Do I understand correctly, then, you were

15     assigned to the Zeljava airport between 28 June and 20 October 1991?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   The Zeljava airport was on the border between the Republic of

18     Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   It is -- just so we have a little context, it's the south of

21     Slunj and to the north of Korenica; right?

22        A.   It's east of Korenica and south of Slunj.  So you're right.  It

23     would be north-west of the town of Bihac.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  In paragraph 21 of your statement you indicate

25     that you were assigned to a helicopter regiment in Zaluzani near

Page 35334

 1     Banja Luka on 20 October 1991.  Were you a part of this regiment from 20

 2     October until the beginning of April 1992?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You were assigned to the 711th Anti-Armour Helicopter Squadron or

 5     POHE of the 5th Corps prior to April 1992; correct?

 6        A.   It was the 5th Corps and there was indeed a 711th squadron and I

 7     was its member.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32545 for

 9     the witness.

10        Q.   This is a 1 April 1992 order number 1-763 from Lieutenant-General

11     Bozidar Stevanovic, commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence.

12     At the beginning of this order, we see that it relates to the temporary

13     assignment of personnel to a helicopter squadron of the Ministry of

14     Interior of the SAO Krajina.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

16     and page 3 of the English translation.  Focusing on item number 5.

17        Q.   Under item 5, we see that you are listed and your previous

18     assignment is described.  The order then indicates that you received a

19     temporary assignment as of 1 April.  You were assigned to a helicopter

20     squadron of the MUP of the SAO Krajina as of 1 April 1992; correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   In this document, we see there is an instruction to report to the

23     commander of the Udbina airport.  If could you just give us the name, who

24     did you report to when you received this assignment?

25        A.   The squadron was set up in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  It

Page 35335

 1     was directly subordinated to the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of

 2     Serbian Krajina.

 3        Q.   Could you give us the name of the person who you reported to when

 4     you received this assignment?

 5        A.   My superior was Major Darko Sekulic.  He was the commander of

 6     that squadron.

 7        Q.   And the squadron that you're referring to, I believe we see,

 8     according to report, is the 56th Mixed Helicopter Squadron.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Yes?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also please slow down.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Were you in this helicopter squadron until November 1993?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   As a member of this squadron, you are familiar with the 17th of

16     August training centre in Golubic; right?

17        A.   The name doesn't ring a bell.  What do you mean when you say the

18     training centre?  Could you be more specific, please.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. WEBER:  First of all, could the Prosecution tender this

21     document?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7372, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P7372 is admitted.

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 35336

 1        Q.   And since you just asked that last question, if we could go

 2     quickly to 65 ter 32547, page 2 of both versions.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before that.  Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 25760b,

 4     what P number does it have?  I have it as having 7372.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.  So 65 ter number

 6     32545 will be P7373.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Sorry, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  No problem, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Sir, this is a 31 May 1994 RSK MUP 56th Helicopter Squadron

11     request.  It's addressed to the RSK minister of internal affairs.  In the

12     first line of the request, it refers to your former unit being based at

13     the Golubic training centre, and in the third sentence the request

14     indicates that the helicopter squadron moved to the Heliodrom on

15     28 September 1993.  Does this help you refresh your recollection as to

16     the 17th of August training centre in Golubic?

17        A.   I'm familiar with the place Golubic, and I'm familiar with the

18     signature of the commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Veljko Leka.  That's all I

19     know about this document.

20             MR. WEBER:  I wasn't going to spend much time on this, but since

21     I had to use this on the record, it's part of a larger file, if

22     Your Honours would, with your indulgence, if we could just excerpt the

23     one document and tender that one document.  We're not going to need to

24     seek the entire file at this time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you think that that's enough, I leave it in your

Page 35337

 1     hands, Mr. Weber, but you then have to separately upload it as a separate

 2     document.  We could already reserve a number for this extract of what was

 3     until now uploaded under the number you mentioned.  But this is the

 4     31st of May 1994 request for hangar construction.

 5             Mr. Registrar, the number to be reserved would be.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Would be P7373, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  7374.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  7374, I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, P7374 is reserved for that purpose.

10             Witness, you said you didn't know anything more about this

11     document.  Now, the document refers to the 17th of August training

12     centre.  Do you say that is totally unknown or I'm not aware of any

13     Golubic training centre?  Apart from whether you have seen this document

14     before.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've not seen this document before.

16     I'm familiar with the centre at Golubic.  One part of my unit was there

17     in January 1993, when the units of the Croatian army attacked the

18     southern part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So you are familiar with the centre?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It would have saved some time if you would have told

22     us that right away when you were asked about the 17th August training

23     centre Golubic, rather than to invite Mr. Weber to describe what training

24     centre he meant.  Because, as it turns out now, you're fully aware of

25     that training centre.

Page 35338

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32546 for

 3     the witness.

 4        Q.   This is a 5 February 1992 order from RSK Minister of the Interior

 5     Milan Martic.  At the bottom of the document, we see there's a reference

 6     to the previous order that we look the at a little bit ago.  Number

 7     1-763.  We also see that you are referred to under item 1 and it

 8     indicates that you are the mixed air squadron commander.  You've

 9     mentioned that you became the commander of this squadron during your

10     testimony.  My question to you is:  When did you become the commander?

11        A.   I became acting commander on the 16 November 1994 after my

12     squadron commander was killed.  I was temporarily assigned to his

13     position until the official order which came on the 5th of February,

14     1993.

15        Q.   I'm a little bit confused by the date that's recorded in the

16     transcript.  Sir, if you could clarify.  Your previous answer says --

17     starts with you saying:  "I became acting commander on 16 February [sic]

18     1994..."

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  November.

20             MR. WEBER:  16 November, sorry, of 1994.

21        Q.   Is that an accurate date?

22        A.   As far as I can see here and as far as I can remember, it was in

23     1993.  I apologise.  1992.  And then in 1993 I became the squadron

24     commander starting with this date.

25        Q.   Based on what we've seen, is it correct that you were assigned to

Page 35339

 1     the RSK MUP Ministry of Interior between 1 April 1992 and November 1993?

 2        A.   When it comes to that unit, I stayed there until the 1st of

 3     April, 1993.  And after that date, another unit was set up and it was

 4     part of the armed forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I continued

 5     working as commander in that unit and that unit remained part of the

 6     Ministry of Interior.

 7        Q.   Now I just want to ask you about a couple aspects of the document

 8     before us --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I understood your question that you'd

10     like to know when he was appointed, not until when he stayed.  Which

11     seems to be ...

12             MR. WEBER:  I actually changed from when he was appointed

13     commander, which I believe he clarified.  I then -- it was my intention

14     to move on to the fact of whether or not he was assigned to the MUP --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I may have -- is it correct that you were

16     assigned to the RSK MUP ministry between the 1st of April 1992 and

17     November 1993.  I would expect an answer when he was assigned and he told

18     us until when he stayed, but where he exactly stayed is even not clear.

19     But if you are satisfied with the answer, then I leave it.

20             MR. WEBER:  Very well, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the fact that

22     Milan Martic sends this order to the VJ General Staff personnel

23     administration, we can see that at the top of the document.  This was

24     because you were assigned to the RSK MUP through the 40th Personnel

25     Centre of the VJ; right?

Page 35340

 1        A.   I don't know what personnel centre and what administration it

 2     was.  I was assigned this way and this is all okay.

 3        Q.   Just to understand correctly, you were assigned to the RSK MUP

 4     through the VJ; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   When you later joined the Army of Republika Srpska, you were also

 7     assigned to the VRS through the VJ; correct?

 8        A.   No.  I was assigned at my own request, which I sent to the Main

 9     Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  My request was to move to

10     Republika Srpska, this was accepted, and I rejoined the Army of

11     Republika Srpska as a result of that.

12        Q.   That request went through Belgrade; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Sir, before tendering this document, I just wanted to draw your

15     attention to the reference to Federal Secretary of National Defence order

16     number 1943-1 of 28 April 1992 in the first part of this document.

17             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, could I tender this document at this

18     time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 32546 will be Exhibit P7375,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7375 is admitted.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14426 for

24     the witness.

25        Q.   And, sir, coming up before you will be order number 1943-1, dated

Page 35341

 1     28 April 1992.

 2             MR. WEBER:  I believe it starts on the next page as the enclosure

 3     in both versions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, did I miss the translation of the

 5     handwritten portions on the cover page.  Could we go one page back?  In

 6     both versions.  I see quite some handwriting which appears not to be

 7     translated.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  We -- we see that that's the case.  When I go

 9     to tender, I'd be happy to address that -- or what I'm focusing on for

10     the examination is the actual order itself.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's move on.  But, of course, the

12     Chamber would like to know what is written there.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you for drawing our attention to it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So we move on to the second page in both versions,

16     yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  This is order number 1943-1, dated 28 April, 1992,

18     from Blagoje Adzic, chief of the General Staff of the SFRY armed forces.

19     We can see that the order relates to organisational changes in the

20     Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21             Could the Prosecution please go to the next page of both

22     versions.

23        Q.   Under item 7 of this order, we see that there's a reference to

24     the 56th Combined Air Force Squadron at the Udbina airport.  This is

25     referring to your helicopter squadron; correct?

Page 35342

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   The order then indicates that in peacetime and in war time the

 3     squadron shall be resubordinated to the RSK Ministry of Interior.  We

 4     have seen from the previous documents that you were formally assigned to

 5     the RSK MUP, and here we see that your squadron it resubordinated to the

 6     MOD.  During operations you were resubordinated to the military; correct?

 7        A.   No, I was resubordinated to the Ministry of Interior.  However,

 8     this is about a different system.  Up until the 1st of May, 1995, the

 9     activities which took place in the Republic of Serbian Krajina were

10     supervised by the peacekeeping forces and the authority fell into the

11     hands of the Ministry of Interior.  It was only after that that the Army

12     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was re-established.

13        Q.   Sir, the Chamber has received some other evidence about this.

14     I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you on it.

15             MR. WEBER:  So could the Prosecution please tender this document.

16     We'd be happy to have it marked for identification pending the

17     revision -- the revised translation of the cover page.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar the number would be.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P7376, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just to clean up -- Your Honours, to

22     clean up a housekeeping matter.  The excerpted page from 65 ter 32547,

23     the 31 May 1994 document, has now been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter

24     32547a.  This document was provisionally assigned Exhibit P7375.  We now

25     ask that --

Page 35343

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  74.

 2             MR. WEBER:  7374.  Thank you, Your Honours.  We kindly request

 3     that the document be replaced and it now be admitted.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  P7374 is admitted.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  At this time, I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a

 7     video, and it is 65 ter 22312a.  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to pause at

 8     the 14-second mark at the outside of the video.  We have provided

 9     transcripts to the booths, and there's minimal audio on the video so ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Minimal is not nothing.

11             MR. WEBER:  Not nothing.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you rely in any way on the audio?

13             MR. WEBER:  The audio that is there, at this first portion

14     there's -- there's --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Has it been verified that the transcript reflects

16     the words spoken?  Because if not, we have to play it twice.

17             MR. WEBER:  No it hasn't been verified, although this video has

18     been admitted in multiple times as exhibits at the Tribunal.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  This video in this trial?

20             MR. WEBER:  Not in this trial.  But at the trial -- previous

21     occasions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This --

23             MR. WEBER:  But it has not been verified in this record.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber has a standard procedure for verifying

25     whether especially quickly spoken text is accurately reflected in the

Page 35344

 1     transcript and then interpreted for us accurately.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, we do it twice.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. WEBER:  The video is now paused at 14.1 seconds.

 6        Q.   Sir, what you have just seen the beginning of is footage from a

 7     March 1992 video recording that took place at the 17th of August training

 8     centre in Golubic.  Do you recognise the person saluting here towards the

 9     right side of the photo as Milan Martic?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Sir, in the first 14 seconds of this video we saw Mr. Martic

12     walking in front of a number of individuals in uniform.  These people in

13     uniform that we've seen so far, they were members of the RSK MUP;

14     correct?

15        A.   This is footage from the training centre that we spoke of a

16     moment ago, the 17th of August.  And as far as I can see, this is one of

17     these groups of soldiers -- or rather policemen who were in that centre

18     and who were completing their training at that centre.

19        Q.   Just so we have it on the record before we continue watching, did

20     you attend this ceremony or know about it in March 1992?

21        A.   I didn't know.  You saw from that order that I arrived in the

22     unit, that is to say, the Republika Srpska Krajina, on the 1st of April,

23     1992.

24        Q.   Yeah.  Could we please continue watching until 2 minutes and 25

25     seconds.  There will be a song, I believe, played during this portion,

Page 35345

 1     and then there will be some verbally spoken words, so it may require us

 2     to go back and reverify those words.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll replay the portion where, as you

 4     said, words were spoken verbally.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I noted that there was spoken portions

 9     between the approximately 33 second mark to 47 seconds, and 2 minutes 12

10     seconds to approximately the 2.25.2 mark that we're on.  If Your Honours

11     would like, we could replay those two segments right now, skipping --

12     [Overlapping speakers].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then we'd like to hear the interpretation

14     of those words.

15             MR. WEBER:  First, may I ask Ms. Stewart to replay from

16     approximately 33 seconds.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Cadets, I salute you."

19             MR. WEBER:  If we could continue playing until approximately 47

20     seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Good afternoon, sir.  Very good.

23     Attention.  Stand at ease."

24             MR. WEBER:  And if we could now please go to -- just to start a

25     little early, the 2 minute, 10 second mark, and if we could continue

Page 35346

 1     playing until the 2 minutes 25 seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Please allow me on behalf of the

 4     17th August training centre here in the Republika of Serbian Krajina to

 5     welcome... "

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm just pausing here.  Aside from Mr. Martic, and I believe

 8     you also recognised General Mladic in this video, did you recognise any

 9     other individuals who were present that we've seen so far?

10        A.   Except for my two commanders, I recognise the president of

11     Republic of Serb Krajina, Mr. Goran Hadzic.  That would be it, roughly.

12     It was pretty fast.  That's what I managed to recognise.

13        Q.   We're paused at 2 minutes, 25 seconds.  Is it correct that

14     President Hadzic is sitting in the dark overcoat with the beard in the

15     image that's on the screen before us?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   And when you're saying your two commanders, who are the

18     individuals that you're referring to?

19        A.   Well, first my commander was Mr. Milan Martic, and afterwards my

20     commander was General Ratko Mladic.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time I'm going to play the

22     remainder of the video, and it's going to need to be played twice because

23     there's words spoken throughout.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's hear it for the first time.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 35347

 1             MR. WEBER:  And at this time the Prosecution has got to replay

 2     from the 2 minute 25 second portion till the end of the video.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. Zdravko Zecevic, prime minister

 5     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Interruption.  Representatives of

 6     the Krajina Corps led by Major-General Ratko Mladic.  The commander of

 7     the Serb Volunteer Guard.  The president of ...

 8             "Dear guests of this [unintelligible] ceremony for all the

 9     soldiers who fell for our Krajina, may they rest in eternal glory,

10     against the Ustasha, about the defence against the dagger, about the

11     defence of the Serb people not only in the Krajina but throughout our

12     blood soaked Serbian land, because you must know that this has never been

13     Croatia, the Serb people paid for this land with blood, I say to you that

14     this never belonged to Croatia.  This is Serbia and will stay Serbia."

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Sir, toward the end of this video, we saw the statements by

17     Zeljko Raznjatovic, who's known to this Chamber as Arkan, and we can also

18     hear the applause when he says:  "This is Serbia and will stay..." part

19     of "... Serbia."

20             This last statement by Zeljko Raznjatovic, this was a reference

21     to the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  I don't know how this witness who was not

23     there would know what Zeljko Raznjatovic meant.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then he'll tell us that he doesn't know and --

25             MR. LUKIC:  I think that it would be pure guessing, Your Honours,

Page 35348

 1     and that's why we would object.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least the word "Krajina" is mentioned not

 3     only once but twice in the speech.  So, therefore, the question can be

 4     asked to the witness and you may answer the question.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, Mr. Raznjatovic's reference "to this is Serbia and will

 7     stay..." a part of "... Serbia" is a reference to the Republic of Serbian

 8     Krajina; correct?

 9        A.   Since the Serb people were in that area and they didn't want to

10     leave the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and those

11     processes, I mean international processes, had not been carried out, my

12     personal view is that that is the context in which he said that.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would

14     tender 65 ter 22312a into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7377, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P7377 is admitted.  I see that the CD-ROMs have been

18     provided.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Sir, I just have a couple of other really small items to discuss

22     with you, and I'd actually like to direct your attention now forward

23     while you were in the Army of Republika Srpska, so between 1993 and 1995.

24             During that time, did you ever fly to the VMA in Belgrade?

25        A.   Yes, several times.

Page 35349

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32576 for

 2     the witness.

 3        Q.   Sir, what's going to be coming up before you is going to be an

 4     aerial image from Google of the --

 5             MR. WEBER:  Can we see it on the monitor already?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  No document attached to the 65 ter, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, our apologies.  If could you have a

 8     moment of indulgence, I believe it's being released.

 9             Your Honours, I note I do not have it on the screen before me.  I

10     don't know if it's on the screen before the --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not on our screens.  It wasn't on our screens

12     because it is now.

13             MR. WEBER:  Here we have it.

14        Q.   Sir, this is an aerial image of Belgrade.  The installations

15     towards the centre of the aerial image, you recognise that as the VMA in

16     Belgrade; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If we could direct our attention to the -- there's two circles

19     with -- appear to be paved paths around them just below and a little to

20     the right of the VMA, those are helicopter landing pads; correct?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   Sir, if we could just do as of -- if you could do us a favour

23     just because there's lot of things on this photograph.  If the court

24     officer could please hand the witness with -- a pen, and if could you

25     circle the helicopter landing pads.

Page 35350

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   These are the helicopter landing pads you landed at during the

 3     war; right?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, did you fly to the VMA in Belgrade ever from

 6     Crna Rijeka?

 7        A.   Not from Crna Rijeka.

 8        Q.   Did you fly to the -- to this location from anywhere in

 9     Eastern Bosnia?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'm not asking to you explain the occasions, but if could you

12     just tell us the precise locations that you flew from in eastern -- from

13     Eastern Bosnia?

14        A.   From Zvornik, the location of Karakaj where the Heliodrom was.  I

15     flew the wounded to Belgrade, to this location.

16        Q.   Just so we have some idea of timing, from the Heliodrom in

17     Karakaj to the VMA in Belgrade, approximately how long would that take

18     you to fly between those two points?

19        A.   Well, 20 to 25 minutes.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the image on the screen, as

21     marked.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  As marked by the witness.

23             Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7378, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P7378 is admitted.

Page 35351

 1             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no further questions at this

 2     time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

 4             Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Lukic?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Very -- very short.

 6             Can I continue?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day once again, Mr. Kecman.

11        A.   Good day.

12        Q.   I am just going ask you something about this video that was shown

13     to you now, P7377.  That's how it's been admitted.  We saw this speech by

14     Zeljko Raznjatovic.  Do you know who filmed this material?

15        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I mean ...

16        Q.   In your view, does this footage show that this is exactly the

17     gathering where Zeljko Raznjatovic is speaking?

18        A.   Well, I see that he is speaking, but I cannot say specifically

19     where it is that he is speaking.

20        Q.   All right.  Let me just ask you something.  Zeljko Raznjatovic

21     has been mentioned --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Just a minute.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, you have not

24     specifically asked, is there a suggestion that the speech by

25     Zeljko Raznjatovic is planted into that video and is not part of the

Page 35352

 1     ceremony?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  The suggestion is that we do not see where

 3     Zeljko Raznjatovic spoke.  There is no -- any connection in that video.

 4     It was just cut and we saw him [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but he's announced, isn't it, by the main

 6     speaker?  Well, not by name but by function.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  But we do not know if that speech is from that

 8     meeting.  We cannot -- I couldn't see it.  I --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say -- yes.  You said there's no link and I'm

10     just wondering whether you consider the announcement of a person in a

11     certain position speaking -- is not then related to Arkan?  Is that your

12     position or do you say we don't know?

13             MR. LUKIC:  I could not establish that that speech was from that

14     meeting.  Although he was announced, it doesn't mean that that's -- that

15     was a speech.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course.  It could be anything else.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Kecman, Zeljko Raznjatovic is speaking here in this video

20     footage about the struggle against daggers.  What are daggers and what

21     are they a symbol are?

22        A.   Daggers are a symbol of the Ustasha; that is to say, everything

23     negative that happened to the Serb people during the previous war, that

24     is to say, from 1941 to 1945.

25        Q.   What was this that happened to the Serb people and what are

Page 35353

 1     daggers related to?

 2        A.   A major genocide was carried out against the Serb people.  About

 3     a million and a half Serbs lost their lives during that war.  You saw

 4     these daggers, that these daggers were used in the camp of Jasenovac,

 5     where 500- to 700.000 persons lost their lives.  Not only Serbs but other

 6     ethnic groups as well.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] In the Serb Republic of Krajina, do you know

10     whether Zeljko Raznjatovic was subordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia,

11     actually the JNA at the time?

12        A.   I'm not sure, but I think he was not.  I mean, I know he was not.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kecman.  That's all we had for you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, any further questions?  But let me

15     just -- any further questions?

16             MR. WEBER:  I would just like to go to a quick time-frame in that

17     video, if we could.  Exhibit P7377, time code 3 minute, 19 seconds.

18                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

19        Q.   Sir, in this video in the front row, do you see General Mladic

20     standing towards the -- he's the individual in the front row, second to

21     the left of the photo; correct?

22        A.   I do, I do.

23        Q.   And we've seen Mr. Raznjatovic and what he was wearing that day,

24     but is it correct that if you go over three individuals from

25     General Mladic, towards President Hadzic, that's Zeljko Raznjatovic

Page 35354

 1     standing in the second row; correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5                           Questioned by the Court:

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One last question.  You started saying I'm not

 7     certain whether Arkan was subordinated, and then you said you think he

 8     was not, and then you say "I know he was not."  Could you explain what

 9     was at the basis of this knowledge?

10        A.   Well, knowing Mr. Mladic from the subsequent period, I mean, he

11     certainly would not have paramilitaries within his own troops.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say you concluded that in view of the

13     attitude taken later by General Mladic?

14        A.   General Mladic had that attitude from the very beginning until

15     the end.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you said subsequent period.  Why did you refer

17     to the subsequent period?

18        A.   Well, that situation; namely, that I participated and waged war

19     in three different armies; that is to say, all the three armies that

20     General Ratko Mladic belonged to.  Knowing from the very outset when I

21     heard of him in 1991, 1992, when I heard about his attitudes and his way

22     of protecting the confronted parties in that area, he certainly had

23     enough power and he didn't need any help from the outside.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             No further questions triggered by my questions?

Page 35355

 1             Mr. Kecman, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you

 2     very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the questions

 3     that were put to you; questions that were put to you by the parties,

 4     questions that were put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return

 5     home again.  You may now follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  It would be Mr. Todorovic,

10     Dragan.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom --

12     oh, no, we'll first take a break.  I have to apologise.

13             We take a break and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

17     courtroom.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.  Before you give

20     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

21     is now handed out to you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN TODOROVIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 35356

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Todorovic.

 2             Mr. Todorovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 3     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Todorovic.

 8        A.   Good day.

 9        Q.   Just for the record, could you please tell us slowly your name,

10     your first and last names.

11        A.   Dragan Todorovic.  I was born on the 8th of August, 1965 in

12     Tuzla.  Before the war, I resided in Kladanj municipality.  My father's

13     surname Mirosav, my mother's name is Nevenka.  I'm a Serb of Orthodox

14     faith and I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15        Q.   Hvala [No interpretation].

16        A.   You're welcome.

17        Q.   Until when did you reside in Kladanj?

18        A.   Until the beginning of the war.  Until 1992.

19        Q.   And now I'm going to ask you something about the situation before

20     the war broke out.

21             First of all, did you know anything about the military

22     organisation of Muslims in 1991, from 1991 until the spring of 1992 in

23     Kladanj?

24        A.   Since I lived and worked in Kladanj, obviously I knew what was

25     going on in my municipality.  I myself got an invitation from the

Page 35357

 1     TO Kladanj to report to a mobilisation spot.  The name of that is

 2     Tisovac; it's a dam, a bathing spot.  I never responded because I did not

 3     want to be a member of the Patriotic League.  Nobody ever forced me to

 4     respond.  I worked at a hotel as a waiter.  From time to time, those

 5     people would go for maneuvers.  I saw them in uniforms with white

 6     markings on their hats.  It was the symbol of a lily and the letters PL

 7     for Patriotic League.  It was not like all the population sported those

 8     symbols and insignia.  Some people did.

 9        Q.   How long or how late was it safe to travel and when did it become

10     unsafe to use the roads around Kladanj?

11        A.   When barricades and check-points emerged, all that didn't bode

12     well.  That demonstrated that things had changed, that we were looking at

13     each other differently, that we were behaving differently, that we were

14     controlling each other, that the mutual trust that had existed all of a

15     sudden was dying out.  People started avoiding their former friends and

16     acquaintances.  Guards started patrolling the town.

17        Q.   When did you leave Kladanj, approximately?  At what time?

18        A.   I left Kladanj at the end of April or the beginning of May.  A

19     man in uniform came.  He was my neighbour.  And he told me, "Go.  I can

20     help you today.  I won't be able to help you tomorrow."  I just laughed.

21     I asked for an explanation.  He said I can't explain.  We had socialised.

22     We had worked together.  He told me go and join your people.  I accepted

23     that.  I realised that it was not a joke.  I went to my village, to where

24     my parents lived.  I stayed there for a while.  And from there, I left.

25     In my village, they thought it was just a game, that war.  I told them

Page 35358

 1     that people had uniforms and arms, and they said it's all a big joke.  I

 2     left there, I left my village across the forest, I arrived in

 3     Vlasenica --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise for interrupting but it was a simple

 6     question:  When did you leave.  And as he has with the other questions,

 7     he's getting into a repeated narrative.  So I would ask for simple

 8     question/answer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I do not know whether this is what

10     you're seeking, Mr. Lukic, in that the witness apparently feels what your

11     next question would be.  But I asked myself at all what is the part of it

12     if there's any dispute.

13             Is there any dispute that a Patriotic League did exist,

14     Mr. McCloskey?  There's no dispute about that.

15             Is there any dispute that it happened -- that it existed in

16     Kladanj?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't believe so, Mr. President.  But as for

18     these details, I'm not absolutely clear on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then it's all sweeping statements without

20     any basis of knowledge.  Mr. Lukic, this Chamber would very much like to

21     receive serious evidence challenging what the Prosecution seeks to

22     establish.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, this was just an entry for my next

25     several questions, and I think it would be clear from the next one --

Page 35359

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I would say move directly to what you

 2     consider to be relevant.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, what do you personally know about

 7     what happened to the Serbs who had remained in Kladanj after you left?

 8        A.   The Serbs who stayed in Kladanj, some of them joined the

 9     military, and those who refused to join were taken to a camp.  Some were

10     arrested at the check-points and their trace was lost until the year

11     2000.  I'm talking about four lads:  Dragan Zelenovic, Dragan Remetic,

12     Vojo Baletic, and Vojislav Vasiljevic.  They're my relatives, actually.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And what did you learn about them and when did you

14     learn that?

15        A.   We learned that after the war there was a long search for them,

16     before that, on our part, and then we learned that they were killed not

17     far from Kladanj in the direction of Vrtenovic in a cave.  Their bodies

18     were exhumed from there and those who were in the camp survived.  And

19     those who were in the camp survived thanks to the Red Cross

20     organisations -- organisation that registered them.

21        Q.   Did you know anything about those four relatives of yours?  Where

22     were they killed?

23        A.   We didn't know anything.  They were arrested before a combat

24     event started.  At the check-point, the Patriotic League took them

25     prisoner.  A detachment had been set up.  They arrested them.  They were

Page 35360

 1     supposed to be investigated.  And after that, all their traces were lost

 2     until the end of the war.  During the war, we tried to get in touch with

 3     the military to see if we could find them, if we could exchange them.

 4     Nothing came out of that.  We didn't know anything about their destiny

 5     until the end of the war.

 6        Q.   In combat with the opposing side, did you lose a family member?

 7        A.   Yes.  Two uncles and a relative.  I was the 17th in a row that

 8     was wounded, but I survived.  Those who were wounded before me didn't

 9     survive.  They were wounded in combat.

10        Q.   In the area where you were, were there any civilian casualties on

11     the Serbian side during combat?

12        A.   Around Kladanj, there were civilian casualties when our villages

13     were being attacked.  All the villages around the Kladanj municipality

14     were torched save for Pelemis.  They were torched in 1993.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down and could he

16     repeat the two names that he has just mentioned of his uncle and his

17     relative.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, could you slow down and could

19     you repeat the two names you'd just mentioned of your uncle and a

20     relative.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My uncle on my father's side, not

22     my uncle on my mother's side, Nikola Todorovic; and my relative,

23     Nebojsa Zoranovic.  They were both killed while they were defending my

24     village, Vucinici, not far from Kladanj.  My uncle was taken prisoner

25     after he had been wounded, and then he was finished off and killed.

Page 35361

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And when was that?  Because we have no time-frame

 2     whatsoever.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992.  I believe that it was in

 4     the month of August.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] I asked you about civilian casualties.

 8        A.   Yes, there were in other villages.

 9        Q.   Could you please tell us the names of those villages where there

10     were civilian casualties but slow down, please.

11        A.   Vrenovici, Mladovo, Obrcevac, Pajici, Kovacici, Konjevic Vucinici

12     and other villages whose names escape me.  All the villages were

13     destroyed.  The houses were torched there.

14        Q.   You mentioned Pelemis as an exception to that.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did the village of Pelemis remain intact until the end of the

17     war?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   What happened and when?

20        A.   Pelemis was attacked on Easter Day in 1993.  Strong Muslim forces

21     attacked the village.  That was the Army of BiH.  I don't know what you

22     want me to call that force.  I don't want to insult anybody.  I'm going

23     to use the term "BiH army."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, two questions:  First, you said you

25     mentioned Pelemis as an exception to that.  I don't find that on the

Page 35362

 1     record, so it may have been that the -- if I'm not mistaken.  And second,

 2     if the witness describes what happened in many, many villages, it would

 3     certainly assist us if we would know what his personal knowledge about

 4     all that is.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, you heard what Judge Orie's interested in.  What

 7     is your personal knowledge about the torched Serb villages in Kladanj

 8     municipality?

 9        A.   My personal knowledge is this:  In Obrcevac, Mladovo, and

10     Vrenovici, there were civilian casualties of advanced age:  My uncle,

11     whose name I mentioned, and my relative, whose names I mentioned, were

12     killed in my village, and I also know that all the houses were torched.

13     They burnt to the ground.  They were completely destroyed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you present when it happened or did you learn

15     about your uncle later or ...

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned about my uncle's death in

17     the year 2000 when his body was found and exhumed.  Until then he been

18     recorded as a missing person.  And for as long as a person is recorded as

19     missing, there is a search for their body.  That's normal.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the circumstances under which your uncle died,

21     did you learn that from others who have observed that or did you not

22     learn it?  Is it still unknown to you?  I'd like to know what -- how you

23     learned these things.  I do understand that if a body is exhumed, then

24     that's a way of learning that somebody had died, and not very pleasant, I

25     fully understand that, but do you have any other direct information

Page 35363

 1     about, for example, what happened to your uncle?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My uncle was a member of the Army

 3     of Republika Srpska that had also been set up at the same time as the BiH

 4     army.  He defended his own village.  There was an attack on my village in

 5     August.  He was wounded in his left leg when they took him prisoner.  He

 6     was taken prisoner, and as soon as that happened he was finished off.  He

 7     was killed.

 8             And for Nebojsa Zoranovic, his body remained hidden until the

 9     year 2000.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now my question is:  Who told you that he was killed

11     and when, and under what circumstances?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who told me?  A mate of mine who

13     was in Italy who had worked with me.  He returned, opened a restaurant.

14     Since we were good friends before the war, I got in touch with him and he

15     told me that he would find the grave and mark it but that he didn't dare

16     be present for his own personal safety reason.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question.  Who took your uncle prisoner?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BiH army.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where did they take him prisoner from?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction of Kladanj.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On what date?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date.  I know

23     that it was in August 1992.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you witness the taking of him as a prisoner?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 35364

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And did this friend who opened a restaurant, did he

 3     tell you where he was when your uncle was killed?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wanted to avoid the war and then

 5     he returned to Bosnia after the war.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So he was not present when your uncle was killed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And what then exactly is the basis of his knowledge?

 9     How did he know further details, if he did?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  He had own men there.

11     That was his town.  He knew the lads who had been engaged.  He got in

12     touch with somebody I don't know.  In any case, he helped me to excavate

13     the bodies.  A doctor from Zvornik called Gavro [phoen] went with the Red

14     Cross, they excavated the body, they marked the area where the bodies had

15     been buried.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I'm not going to ask you about any names.  I'm just going to ask

20     you the ethnicity of that mate of yours who helped you to locate your

21     uncle's body?

22        A.   Muslim, Bosniak.

23        Q.   After leaving Kladanj, where did the Serb refugees go?

24        A.   Some in Vlasenica, some in Zvornik, some in Sekovici, some in

25     Serbia.  Some stayed on the lines as personnel, the newly established

Page 35365

 1     line of combat.

 2        Q.   Who had military obligation on Serb territory?  Did Muslims also

 3     have to go into the army as well as Serbs?

 4        A.   When I joined the Army of Republika Srpska, it was voluntary, and

 5     in my unit there wasn't a single Muslim in that first unit where I was.

 6        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, were Muslims forcibly recruited

 7     into the Serb army in your territory?

 8        A.   In my territory, Vlasenica-Sekovici, I'm not aware of anybody

 9     receiving call-up papers and being forcibly brought into the unit as a

10     combatant or anything else.

11        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you briefly about your participation in the

12     army.  You said that you joined voluntarily.  What unit, when?

13        A.   When I arrived Vlasenica, I reported to the municipality in

14     Vlasenica and they deployed me in Sekovici, the Sekovici Brigade, and

15     that's why I joined the ranks of the Sekovici Brigade.  I think it was

16     the 1st Birac Brigade.

17        Q.   Where did you go after that unit?

18        A.   Well, an assault detachment was detached in Vlasenica, I think it

19     was September, so I joined that assault detachment of Vlasenica that was

20     subordinated to the Drina Corps that was already established by then.

21        Q.   After that unit, did you stay in the VRS all the time?

22        A.   Well, I spent some time in that unit.  And then from that unit, I

23     went to the special unit of the police, the Sekovici 2 Detachment.

24        Q.   How long did you stay there?

25        A.   Well, not very long.  Didn't really like it there.  I didn't like

Page 35366

 1     the behaviour of the command towards us.  And also I'm not a fan of blue

 2     uniforms.

 3        Q.   After that?

 4        A.   I went back to this Vlasenica Intervention Platoon that was

 5     attached to the command.  I was there until I was wounded on the

 6     Vlasenica-Kladanj road.

 7        Q.   After recovering from that wound --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness start

 9     again.  We didn't hear the beginning of his answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you restart your answer,

11     because the interpreters missed the beginning of it.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I was wounded on the

13     road between Vlasenica and Kladanj during the night on the 27th of July,

14     1994.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you recover during the war?

17        A.   I did.

18        Q.   After recovery, did you go back or did you go to some other unit?

19        A.   After recovery, I joined the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the number of the

21     military post code that he referred to.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- could you, could you please repeat the

23     number of the military post code that you mentioned before.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 75.  7572/15.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35367

 1        Q.   Where was this unit based?  Was it in one place only?

 2        A.   No.  Some were in Bijeljina and some had their base in Vlasenica.

 3     A smaller place, a village, about 5 kilometres away.  The name is

 4     Dragasevac.

 5        Q.   What part were you in?

 6        A.   I was in the Vlasenica part.

 7        Q.   What was the purpose of that unit?

 8        A.   Well, that's a unit that was established to work behind enemy

 9     lines, to destroy enemy manpower, soldiers, materiel.  To carry out

10     sabotage behind enemy lines.  Also certain things like securing officers,

11     important buildings, and so on, when necessary.

12        Q.   Who was your commander in that unit?

13        A.   Commander Milorad Pelemis was my commander.

14        Q.   In 1994 and 1995, do you know which rank Mr. Pelemis held?

15        A.   Well, he never wore any kind of insignia, and he didn't like us

16     to address him that way.  I think it was second lieutenant, lieutenant,

17     something like that.  I think that that is what he managed to attain even

18     by the end of the war.

19        Q.   What were your duties within the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

20        A.   Well, since I had been wounded, I have these scars from the war,

21     five bullets.  He offered me to work on logistics, to take care of

22     soldiers so that they could eat on time, so that they could have a place

23     to sleep, that they would have clothes to wear, footwear, and it seemed

24     to me that I could handle that.  I accepted that.  I did that from one

25     task to another.

Page 35368

 1        Q.   Did you go out into the field with the unit?

 2        A.   Of course, yes.

 3        Q.   When you were out in the field, did your role change or were you

 4     still in charge of the same things like in base?

 5        A.   Well, basically I did all the same things while we were in the

 6     field.  If the unit moved, I moved together with them.  If the unit was

 7     in jeopardy, of course, I would help my pals and the soldiers, officers.

 8        Q.   When you would go into action, did you get any instructions from

 9     Commander Pelemis before each and every action; do you remember?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What were you told before these actions?

12        A.   Well, every time he would line up the unit and present what he

13     had to say, how we were supposed to behave in this action, what we were

14     supposed to do, that we were supposed to help one another, that we were

15     supposed to save one another, and even if the worst were to happen, then

16     how we should eliminate one another.

17        Q.   In which cases was a member of the unit supposed to be

18     eliminated?

19        A.   If the rest of the team was under threat, the rest of the group,

20     the platoon, depending on the number of personnel involved and what was

21     being done.  So if any of these people were a threat to other soldiers,

22     making them a target for falling into some kind of danger, getting

23     arrested or captured or killed, then the commander of the group would

24     decide to have him eliminated.

25        Q.   In practice, did it ever happen that a member of the group was

Page 35369

 1     liquidated?

 2        A.   No.  And thank God for that, that did not happen.

 3        Q.   Were you told how to treat civilians that you find on enemy

 4     territory?

 5        A.   All civilians that were encountered, they were supposed to be

 6     greeted or people were supposed to go around them, and I don't know of a

 7     single civilian being touched in any way, when people went into action.

 8     They tried to pacify them and, if possible, even to avoid them.  It was

 9     the enemy that was the target.  Their heavy weaponry, their lines, their

10     vehicles.  That's what saboteurs do:  You attack the enemy so that the

11     enemy would not attack you.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let us mentally move to the month of July 1995.  Do

13     you remember whether your unit was given a task in relation to Srebrenica

14     in the beginning of July 1995?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see on our screens D320.  We saw this document

17     several times.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I have no recollection what D320 is.  But

19     if it is any document you are seeking confirmation of, then the --

20     in-chief, the appropriate way of doing that is to first ask a question.

21     And then if you think that the answer requires that you put a document to

22     the witness that you do it then.  Not to show it to him and then --

23     because that may have a leading effect.  But, again, I do not know what

24     your question will be.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I wanted to ask this witness about the signature on

Page 35370

 1     this document, so I had to have it front of him.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you have to do it, yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, there is a document before you.

 5     At the bottom of this document it says:  "Commander,

 6     2nd Lieutenant Pelemis."

 7        A.   Pelemis, yes.

 8        Q.   Are you familiar with Mr. Pelemis's signature?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is this his signature, the one that we see in the document?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Are you familiar with this signature?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Whose signature is this, Mr. Todorovic?

15        A.   Franc Kos's.  He was a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, a

16     second lieutenant.

17        Q.   In real time, when this document was issued, did you see it?

18        A.   Yes, this is my document, and I submitted this document to the

19     Tribunal.  I had this document, and I prepared personnel and equipment

20     and everything else that was needed on the basis of this document.

21        Q.   This is an order for the unit to march along the

22     Bijeljina-Vlasenica-Bratunac axis?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did people go towards Bratunac on the basis of this order?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35371

 1        Q.   At the moment when the order was received to go to Bratunac, out

 2     of this group, who knew where the group was going?  Did everybody know?

 3        A.   Only I knew.

 4        Q.   And who did you inform about this order?

 5        A.   When we linked, only Franc knew.

 6        Q.   When you say Franc?

 7        A.   Franc Kos.

 8        Q.   Where did you go and did you go on the 10th of July?

 9        A.   Yes, we went in the direction of Bratunac.  Am I supposed to tell

10     you which road we took?

11        Q.   Is it the road that is marked here in the order?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't understand the

13     answer.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   [No interpretation]

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So where did you arrive and where did you spend the night?

18        A.   Well, up there, near Zeleni Jadar, some trenches, some forest,

19     some road ...

20        Q.   The next day, the 11th of July, 1995, what do you remember at

21     first in the morning?

22        A.   In the morning, there was this attack by the BH Army, and they

23     managed to recapture territory.

24        Q.   After they managed to recapture some territory, what happened

25     then?

Page 35372

 1        A.   Well, there was a counter-attack.

 2        Q.   Counter-attack?

 3        A.   Of our army.

 4        Q.   Did you enter Srebrenica on that day?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How did you get going?  How did you move to Srebrenica?  Who did

 7     you receive orders from?

 8        A.   From our commander, Milorad Pelemis.

 9        Q.   Were you part of one of the groups that entered Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes, the group of Luka Jokic.

11        Q.   Number 16 in this document, that's Luka Jokic.

12        A.   Yes.  And I am right below him.  He's a sergeant; I'm a soldier.

13        Q.   Where did your group go?

14        A.   Since I hadn't been in Srebrenica before the war, I didn't really

15     know the town.  We started out from some plum orchard, that is where they

16     got this command from Mr. Pelemis.  He said that we were given the

17     assignment to enter and that he was not satisfied with that but we had to

18     go there because we were given that order.  We did not know about urban

19     warfare.  He said that we should take care of one another, that we should

20     not take any risks, that we should not touch anything if we're not sure

21     that we can get through.  If we come across some obstacle on the road,

22     that is to say, mines and stuff like that, that we should not touch that,

23     that some other unit would come, that we should try to go around that.

24     If we encounter soldier, that we should try to get him to surrender.  If

25     he opens fire, that we should return fire.  If civilians go out in front

Page 35373

 1     of us to make a barricade or something or if they show up from their

 2     houses, that we should avoid victims, casualties on either side at any

 3     cost.  Also, he said that we should be careful when entering because

 4     there would be a change of clothing.

 5        Q.   Who would be changing clothes?

 6        A.   Soldiers of the BH Army.  And that then they can be the same kind

 7     of danger like when they wear uniforms.

 8        Q.   How far did you get?

 9        A.   Our objective was to reach the police station and we assumed that

10     that's where the commander was of this gentleman who commanded their

11     28th Division.  I don't know what his rank was.  His name is Naser Oric

12     and also that that we should blockade all important facilities, that we

13     should search the area, that we should not allow anyone to touch

14     documentation, that everything should be written down, registered,

15     recorded, that it should all be put in one place so that it could be

16     taken over by our army and our organs, the people who deal with this kind

17     of paperwork, intelligence, counter-intelligence, so that they could see

18     whether there were any traces of lists of prisoners, of torture, of

19     arrests, of interrogations of our people, our personnel who were taken

20     prisoner in the surrounding area around the protected area of Srebrenica.

21     We did all of that and that was all on the orders -- the boss's order;

22     that is to say, Pelemis's order.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The question, Witness, was how far did you get, and

24     then you told us in many many lines all kind of things.  But the simple

25     question was how far did you get.  Could you --

Page 35374

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We have.  It's in the first line.  Line 3 of page 41.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, that was the objective.  Not the --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the objective was, Mr. Lukic, and an

 4     objective is not necessarily always what you achieve.  So therefore --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you thought that you had received an answer

 7     in the first line, you should have stopped the witness.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, how far did you reach with your group?

11             I don't know whether you heard my question.  Could you please

12     tell us how far did you reach with your group on that occasion.

13        A.   We went slowly and surely.

14        Q.   Did you reach the police station that was your objective?

15        A.   Yes, ultimately we did.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That was leading.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It was, but I tried to --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, you can't try.  Where -- how far did you get.

19     Insist on your question.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Who was there with you?  Did you move along the

22     same road like everybody else who reached the same point, the police

23     station?

24        A.   No, no.  Some went along the left flank, some along the right,

25     some were in the middle.  We searched houses.  It's not easy to enter a

Page 35375

 1     town that had been held by the BiH army until an hour ago.  You could

 2     expect anything, an ambush, mines, explosives.  You had to have eyes in

 3     the back of your head.  You did not dare touch anything.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, nobody asked you where you needed eyes.

 5     The question was:  Who was there with you.  Could you tell us that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Luka Jokic was in my group,

 9     Vlastimir Golijan, Milos Martic, Aleksandar Djuric, Goran Lulic,

10     Zoran Stupar.  These are the names that come to mind.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Was there any resistance when you entered the

14     town of Srebrenica itself?

15        A.   There was no major resistance.  When I say resistance, I mean an

16     army countering another army.  There were some shots, there were some

17     people whistling, but I wouldn't call that resistance.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any civilians in the town of Srebrenica

19     itself?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What were the civilians doing?  Were they standing, moving, what?

22        A.   At first they didn't know who we were and who -- whose army we

23     were members of.

24        Q.   That was at first.  Then after that, did they realise that you

25     were the Serbian army?

Page 35376

 1        A.   Yes.  At the end, they did.  We told them that we had arrived in

 2     Srebrenica, that they should not be afraid, that we would not harm them.

 3     Nobody touched anybody.  We moved them aside.  We checked if somebody had

 4     a uniform.  They were behind our backs and we just continued on our way.

 5        Q.   Did the civilians move behind you or did they stay behind?

 6        A.   They were some 100 metres behind us or even more.  But at that

 7     moment, I could not measure any distances because I was too worried for

 8     my own life.

 9        Q.   On the 11th of July, did you spend the entire day in Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And then in the evening or the night between the 11th and the

12     12th where were you?

13        A.   We withdrew to the entrance of Srebrenica, in the direction of

14     the Srebrenica-Zeleni Jadar road.  We took up three houses there.

15        Q.   When you arrived close to the police station in that part of

16     Srebrenica, did you see Milorad Pelemis there, your commander?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And do you know Drazan Erdemovic?  Did you know him from before

19     the 11th of July, 1995?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you see him had in that part of Srebrenica?  In the centre of

22     Srebrenica, that is.

23        A.   No, I did not.

24        Q.   In the morning on the 12th, what did you do?  Let's focus on the

25     12th of July then.  Do you remember what you did on the 12th of July?

Page 35377

 1        A.   I got up, like every morning.  I was with my troops.  We had

 2     breakfast.

 3        Q.   After breakfast, did you stay there, did you leave, how many of

 4     you stayed behind?

 5        A.   Mr. Pelemis ordered me and the driver to get ready and to leave

 6     for Dragasovaci.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We got the village -- didn't -- I don't think the

 9     interpreters quite got the correct village.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again give the name of that village.  And

11     please pronounce it slowly.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragasovac.  Dragasovac.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you spell that for us?

15        A.   D-r-a-g-a-s-o-v-a-c.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

17             Please.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] And your fellow soldiers from your unit, what

20     about them after you left?

21        A.   I asked my boss or, rather, my driver --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please speak more slowly.  And could you

24     resume from where you said:   "I asked my boss or, rather, my driver,"

25     and what did you then say?

Page 35378

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to buy a souvenir or take

 2     something as a souvenir.  He laughed.  He said go and find something, and

 3     then I found a polystyrene sign of the 28th Division.  I took it and then

 4     I proceeded where Commander Pelemis had ordered me to go.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not an answer to your question.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   What happened to the soldiers in your unit after you left?

 8        A.   They stayed put, on stand by.

 9        Q.   Until when did they stay there?

10        A.   I don't know exactly.  They arrived at the base on that same day.

11        Q.   And when it comes to your unit, how did they move to your base in

12     Dragasovac?

13        A.   I arrived there first.  I took one road and they arrived from two

14     directions, one group from Zeleni Jadar, the other across Milici.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is very important.  Therefore,

16     we -- I would suggest that we take a break first because it's already

17     time and then continue after the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do that.  At the same time, Mr. Lukic, it's

19     not appropriate to tell the witness that it's important what is coming.

20             First of all, we assume that everything you're asking the witness

21     is important.  And otherwise you shouldn't ask him.  And second, it can

22     be understood as a signal of something and that's -- rather refrain from

23     such comments.

24             We'll first take a break.  We'll first ask that the witness to be

25     escorted out of the courtroom.  We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'd

Page 35379

 1     like to see you back after that.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  After the break for urgent personal reasons,

 4     Judge Fluegge is unable to continue to hear this case.  Judge Moloto and

 5     myself have decided that it would be in the interests of justice to

 6     continue hearing the case, and it is of short duration that Judge Fluegge

 7     will be absent.  We expect him to be back tomorrow morning.

 8             We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may continue.

14             Witness, just to explain to you, you'll see own two Judges in

15     front of you.  That is because the third Judge is for urgent personal

16     reasons absent, and we decided that we would continue to hear the case

17     for this short duration under Rule 15 bis of the Rules of Procedure and

18     Evidence.  So that explains why we're just the two of us here.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Can I continue, Mr. Todorovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So how did the members of your unit travel?  How did they arrive

24     after you?

25        A.   They travelled well, and there were no problems until the moment

Page 35380

 1     they left Vlasenica and arrived in front of Radosat [phoen].

 2        Q.   What happened there?

 3        A.   They were in an APC and that APC overturned by a bridge and ended

 4     up 40 metres deep down in an abyss.

 5        Q.   As the APC was turning over, did somebody get injured or hurt?

 6        A.   While the AP was turning over, a man got killed.  His name was

 7     Dragan Kolje [phoen].  He was a member of the sabotage unit.  Another man

 8     was seriously injured.  His name was --

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, if we could -- a little slower on the

10     names.  These are -- we didn't get the name correctly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could we first -- could you please repeat the

12     name of the person that got killed.  You said his name is Dragan and then

13     could you repeat his family name?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I first have to correct you.

15     He was not killed.  He was a victim of the accident.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Koljivrat [Realtime

18     transcript read in error "Koljivat"] was the name of the man who was a

19     member of the sabotage unit who died in the accident.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I didn't suggest that anything else happened to

21     him that than that he died in the accident.

22             Could you also give us the second name again.  The person

23     injured.  His name was?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Mladjo.  I don't know

25     his family name.  He was injured.

Page 35381

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

 3        Q.   Just for the record, the family name was again misrecorded on

 4     page 48, line 8.  The witness said Koljivrat.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             Witness, is that how you spell the name of the person who died in

 7     the accident?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Koljivrat.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then another person who was

11     injured.  He was the driver of the APC.  That person --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, is that someone different from Mladjo, or

13     is it ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A third person, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you give his name.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the third person who

17     was injured and who was the driver of the APC was Milorad Pelemis.  He

18     was the commander of the detachment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- please proceed.  Next question please,

20     Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do, is the name of Mladjo, is

23     he -- can you point it out on this list of the sabotage detachment?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that his family name was

25     Filipovic and that he can be found under number 13.

Page 35382

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Filipovic.  But that doesn't sound like Mladjo.

 2     It looks like 13 Mladenko.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, his nickname was Mladjo.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we're looking at this list anyhow, were you

 6     familiar with those who were with you on this expedition?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Had you known them for a longer period of time being

 9     together in the unit?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with them in the unit.  And

11     when we were supposed to get together when they recruited us from

12     Bijeljina and Vlasenica, they were members of the Bijeljina group or the

13     Bijeljina detachment.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but does that mean that you had known them for

15     how long, these other members of the group?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the moment they joined us.

17     That's when I met them all.  Because I gave them uniforms, I fed them, I

18     provided them with sports kits and everything else.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that for all of them at the same time or was it

20     at different times?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at different times.  They did

22     not all arrive on the same day.  They did not join the unit all on the

23     same day.  However, having said that, they started serving in the unit on

24     the same day, all of them.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And what day was that?

Page 35383

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they arrived in the unit?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For example, for Mr. Kalajdzic, found under

 3     number 8, when would that have been?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They arrived in Bijeljina in 1994,

 5     when the detachment was set up.  I don't recall the exact date.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Since we have the document on the screen, D320,

10     the names from 1 through 15, were these people billeted in Bijeljina or

11     in Vlasenica?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is reading names.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I looking at the right list?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Yes.

16        A.   Nemanja Bogart was a member of the Vlasenica detachment, so he

17     was a signalsman.  That's the order that's normally followed, officer and

18     then the signalsman.  Djoko Vukovic was a driver Vlasenica, and

19     Milovan Milesic was a member of the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you there.  You're not invited to

21     describe these persons but the question is whether, the numbers 1 through

22     15, whether these people were billeted in Bijeljina or in Vlasenica.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just getting there.  I wanted

24     to tell who was in Bijeljina, who was there.  I just wanted to give you

25     that information.

Page 35384

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that part of them were billeted in

 2     Bijeljina and another part was billeted in Vlasenica?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And I leave it to Mr. Lukic whether he wants this to

 5     be specified or whether we leave it to that.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] And then the names from 16 through 24, were they

 9     mixed or did they all hail from one place?

10        A.   Please bear with me.  From number 16, Luka Jokic, to number 24,

11     Zoran Stupar, they are members of the Vlasenica detachment or platoon.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Just another clarification.  On page 45, line 6 of

13     today's transcript, LiveNote, you mentioned a name where your platoon's

14     base was.  Now I really have a problem.  Is it Dragasovac or Dragasevac?

15        A.   Dragasevac.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Koljivrat, your comrade-in-arms who lost his life,

17     who organised the funeral?

18        A.   Me.

19        Q.   Could you tell us briefly how it was that you organised that and

20     who went with you, if you remember?

21        A.   The late Koljivrat was transferred to the Vlasenica medical

22     centre, just like the wounded Mladjo and the wounded Pelemis.  This was

23     done by the soldiers who were there on the spot.

24        Q.   Why did you transfer him to the Vlasenica medical centre?

25        A.   Well, that has to be done whenever there's a death, a wounding.

Page 35385

 1     A report has to be written up, why the man lost his life, so that some

 2     day somebody would be held responsible.

 3        Q.   Did you get any documentation in relation to Koljivrat's death?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was he buried there in Vlasenica or was he transported further?

 6        A.   No.  Since he hailed from Trebinje, he was buried at the

 7     Koljivrat family graveyard in Trebinje.

 8        Q.   Who attended the funeral with you, if you remember?

 9        A.   The journey to Trebinje, I chose a few soldiers who went along

10     with me:  Zeljko Vukovic, Nebojsa Gagic, Srdjan Brezo, Drazan Erdemovic.

11        Q.   Very well.

12        A.   I think there was another soldier.  There are one or two more,

13     but I can't remember the names.

14        Q.   On which date did the funeral take place?

15        A.   Well, when I took him from hospital, that was the 13th.  I

16     documented that with a certificate that I signed.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We still do not know yet when the funeral took

18     place.  That was the question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The funeral took place on the 14th.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] July.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Until when did you stay in Trebinje?

24        A.   We stayed in Trebinje after the funeral on the 14th, in the

25     afternoon.  We stayed at his family, the Koljivrats.

Page 35386

 1        Q.   Did you go back and if so when?

 2        A.   Later.  We stayed on for a while because that's some custom of

 3     theirs.  We were supposed to drink some wine that the father had prepared

 4     for his son's wedding.  Since he buried him on that day, then there was

 5     no point in keeping the wine so he wanted to open that wine and to thank

 6     us for having brought his son there and for the funeral.

 7        Q.   Approximately when did you leave Trebinje to Dragasevac?

 8        A.   Well, in the evening.  I don't know what time it was.  It was

 9     later.

10        Q.   So when did you arrive in the base in Dragasevac?

11        A.   Along the way, we stopped in Pale.  That's where one of the

12     soldiers who was there with us, Srdjan Brezo, was from.  So that he could

13     see them, because they had fled from Sarajevo.

14        Q.   When did you arrive in Dragasevac, the base there?

15        A.   Between 10.00 and 11.00.

16        Q.   Which date?

17        A.   The 15th.

18        Q.   What did you do when you arrived in base?  You, what did you do?

19        A.   Well, I didn't need them for anything anymore, so I said at ease,

20     and then I went to the office to see whether the commander was there.

21        Q.   And when you say "commander," which commander?

22        A.   Pelemis.

23        Q.   Did you find him in the office?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did you see him on base that day?

Page 35387

 1        A.   No.  Had I seen him, I would have given some of the gifts that

 2     the Koljivrat family had sent him.

 3        Q.   After that, after that day, the 15th, when was it that you first

 4     saw Pelemis; do you remember?

 5        A.   Well, I think somewhere around the 21st, the 22nd.  I'm not sure

 6     about the dates now.  It's been a very long time.  It's been 20 years

 7     now.  I cannot go on this way.  I can just give approximate dates.

 8        Q.   The 21st, the 22nd.  Which month, which year?

 9        A.   The month of July 1995.

10        Q.   Could you tell us what happened after that in the base in

11     Dragasevac?  Who arrived?

12        A.   Well, some of the soldiers were free.  Mr. Pelemis said who would

13     be free, who would be off, and who would be on duty, who would be

14     prepared.

15        Q.   Did anybody arrive?  Somebody who was not a member of your

16     detachment --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't understand the

18     answer.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Who was it that arrived?  I'm sorry, the interpreters did not

21     hear your answer when I asked you about somebody who was not a member of

22     your detachment.

23        A.   Mr. Pecanac came.

24        Q.   Why did Pecanac come there?  What was he there for?

25        A.   He didn't address me personally.  He addressed a soldier by the

Page 35388

 1     name of Zoran.

 2        Q.   How did they speak?  Did you hear the conversation?

 3        A.   While I was there, I was jotting something down.  I was copying

 4     something from a notebook that they were distributing while I was not

 5     there.  And first the conversation was normal, and then there was tension

 6     on the rise.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, a part of this answer is pretty unclear

 8     to me.  Copying something from a notebook.  What notebook?  That they

 9     were distributing.  Who's "they"?  Distributing among who?  That all

10     needs to be clarified.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, you heard that.  You heard what Judge Orie is

13     interested in.  So --

14        A.   I was absent and there was a soldier there who took care of the

15     troops, breakfast, lunch, dinner, fuel, guards, activities in the

16     compound.  He kept that internally, and I had to register that in the

17     unit log-book, in the registry so that I could finally complete the

18     procedure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What now was there that was distributed?  Because

20     you said:  "I was copying something from a notebook that they were

21     distributing."  Who's "they"?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The soldier, Milesic Milovan, who

23     was standing in for me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's "he" and not "they," if I understand you

25     well?

Page 35389

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was this group of soldiers

 2     there that had to eat, sleep.  Somebody had to feed them.  If ten tins

 3     are issued, then that has to be written down.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So distribution then refers to food and similar

 5     things to be distributed among the soldiers.  Is that how I have to

 6     understand it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   When this discussion was over between Zoran and -- actually,

11     please, the record does not reflect this.  You did mention the last name

12     of this person, so in line 16, page 55 of LiveNote, the name of Zoran is

13     referred to.

14        A.   Obrenovic.

15        Q.   When that conversation was over between Zoran Obrenovic and

16     Pecanac, did you talk to Obrenovic?

17        A.   I talked to Obrenovic afterwards.

18        Q.   What did Obrenovic say to you?  What was the subject of their

19     conversation?

20        A.   That he needed a group of soldiers.

21        Q.   What else did he say?  Did he tell you what he needed a group of

22     soldiers for?

23        A.   For some task.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we just make it clear who the "he "is that

Page 35390

 1     we're speaking of?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] In line 9, I said -- I mean, it's on this page:

 4             "What did Obrenovic say to you?"

 5             And then after that, I said "he."  So could you please tell us

 6     what did Obrenovic say to you?  What was the subject of the conversation

 7     between him and Pecanac?

 8        A.   Soldier Obrenovic told me verbatim that Mr. Pecanac - and he

 9     said, "this guy" - is asking me for some men so that they could go

10     somewhere on some task.

11        Q.   Did Obrenovic tell you then what kind of task?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   This conversation between Obrenovic and Pecanac, was it one

14     conducted in a friendly atmosphere or not?

15        A.   Well, no.  Both of them are a bit brazen.

16        Q.   So was it a peaceful conversation?

17        A.   At first it looked like a normal conversation and afterwards,

18     tensions went up.  This guy was yelling, "You have to," and this other

19     one was yelling, "I won't.  You know who it is that is issuing orders

20     here in this compound.  You go to Pelemis.  If he allows it, I will carry

21     out the task, and if he doesn't allow it, I will not do it.  You can

22     shoot me," but that's, anyway, how it went on, and that's how it ended.

23        Q.   This conversation of theirs, was it attended by Pelemis?

24        A.   No.  Because Pecanac would not have anything to say that -- in

25     that case, or Zoran either.

Page 35391

 1        Q.   What was the main argument of Zoran Obrenovic?  Why did he not

 2     want to obey Pecanac?

 3        A.   Well, he's not the commander of the sabotage detachment.  It's

 4     not Pecanac.  It is Milorad Pelemis, and he's the one who makes decisions

 5     about everything.  And he issues orders.

 6        Q.   So did some people from your detachment from Dragasevac leave

 7     after that quarrel with Pecanac?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were they issued any equipment and did they take it with them?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Who issued the equipment to them?

12        A.   I did.

13        Q.   What was the vehicle they took?

14        A.   The van that I took to Trebinje.

15        Q.   Who packed the equipment and put it into the van?

16        A.   I did.

17        Q.   What did you pack into the van?

18        A.   PKT, 8 millimetres -- 84 millimetres.

19        Q.   What else did you put into the van?

20        A.   Ammunition for PKT.

21        Q.   Did you pack anything else?

22        A.   M64 called Zolja; hand-held launcher.

23        Q.   Anything else?  Do you remember?

24        A.   A small mortar, 60 millimetres.

25        Q.   Did you pack any explosives?

Page 35392

 1        A.   I did.  These so-called claymore mines.  MRUDs, that's also

 2     mines.

 3        Q.   Do you know how many MRUDs you packed?

 4        A.   Just a moment, I'll remember.  I think six.  Around six.

 5        Q.   Did anybody examine this equipment?

 6        A.   I packed food for 48 hours in the field, the so-called SDO.

 7     Bags; sleeping bags, that is.  Also some water.

 8        Q.   Is that all?

 9        A.   That would be it.  If I've forgotten something, I just cannot

10     remember.

11        Q.   Did anybody check that equipment?

12        A.   Of course.  Second Lieutenant Franc Kos examined it, and I asked

13     him whether he was satisfied with it, and he said:  "Is it the way it's

14     usually done?"  And he said yes, and there you go.  He -- here's a sheet

15     of paper.  So that's documentation since -- and all of that was taken,

16     and I registered all of that and it's all in the archives.  And I did a

17     proper hand-over, and all of that is there and has been there since the

18     end of the war.

19        Q.   I see here that mortars are being issued and mines and MRUDs.

20     Did Kos have any objection in terms of what you had packed, this

21     equipment, these explosives?

22        A.   No.  He always wanted to make sure that he had everything, and he

23     wanted land-mines.  And that's good because when a unit is somewhere and

24     then there is protection 50 or 100 metres away, then if somebody were to

25     step on this land-mine, then the unit would realise that there was

Page 35393

 1     somebody coming.  And that's what everybody does in the field.  If people

 2     want to survive, then they have to take care.  Everybody does that, let

 3     alone saboteurs like the members of our unit.  It would really be a

 4     disgrace if somebody were to catch them by surprise.

 5        Q.   What was your impression at that moment?  Did Kos know what the

 6     goal of the mission was?

 7        A.   No, he did not know at that moment.

 8        Q.   According to you, who was the leader of the group?

 9        A.   The person with the highest rank.  That was Franc Kos, the most

10     experienced saboteur and the person with the highest rank.

11        Q.   Did Drazan Erdemovic left with that group?

12        A.   No, he didn't have to.  However, he said everybody was there.  He

13     had to serve for three more days.  He volunteered to join the unit.

14        Q.   What about you?  Did you know what the group's task was?

15        A.   I didn't know then.  I didn't learn even much later.

16        Q.   According to you, the rest of the men in the group who left your

17     base, did they know what the goal of the mission was?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   According to your best knowledge, what were they told?

20        A.   I didn't ask anybody nor did I have the right to inquire.  I know

21     that they left, they took the road towards Sekovici.  Those lines were

22     all controlled by our military.  All the way up to Zvornik.  Srebrenica

23     had fallen, so I believe that they were sent to set up an ambush or on a

24     reconnoitring mission to reinforce a group, or perhaps one of the

25     officers were in the field and they -- and they needed to provide

Page 35394

 1     security because they didn't have anybody else.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, why do you believe that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they took the weapons and

 4     equipment that are usually taken on a field mission.  There was no

 5     indication that their task would be behind the lines.  They didn't take

 6     any explosives, they did not ask for any special equipment that

 7     [indiscernible] could use only on repeater that we as a unit had with

 8     protected lines and encryption devices.  I thought that perhaps they

 9     would be providing security for a road or perhaps they would spend a

10     night somewhere in the field.  I had just arrived.  I didn't have a clue

11     what was going on.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it was pure speculation.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't say that it was

14     speculation.  It was about sending a group on a mission.  Such a group

15     had to be provided with everything, food, water, materiel, equipment,

16     everything.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, but that doesn't explain what the purpose of

18     that mission would be.  Because whatever the mission is, you need food

19     anyhow, you need water anyhow, isn't it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  Materiel and equipment

21     have -- had to be given to every group on a mission.  When a group works

22     behind the lines, then different materiel and equipment are given to

23     them, explosive, Motorolas, a different repeater.  It was to be assumed

24     that they were not going to be -- or, rather, that they were not being

25     sent into the depth of the enemy positions but that rather they would

Page 35395

 1     stay close to our military positions and lines.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.  And may I -- you're

 3     coming close to your one and a half hours.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I think have some time left.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Limited.  I asked I think --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  What is it, if you know?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, when I asked Mr. Registrar a while ago, he

 8     said 15 minutes left and that was approximately 10 minutes ago, so that

 9     would mean, if I'm generous, six, seven minutes; otherwise just five.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I'm closing to an end, so I hope I will be in time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I expect you to do that.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, that group left.  And what did

13     you do then?

14        A.   I stayed with another group of people, and we set out for

15     Srebrenica.

16        Q.   What did you do in Srebrenica?

17        A.   We left a lorry behind.  Its battery was down so we took two

18     mobile batteries.  It was marked by our initials.  Nobody touched it.

19     Still, we inspected it.  We wanted to make sure that nobody had planted

20     anything on it and we wanted to prevent casualties.

21        Q.   Did you transport anything on that truck?

22        A.   That was returned to the unit.

23        Q.   Did you gather livestock around Srebrenica and for how long?

24        A.   Yes.  On that day, on the following day, I went to Srebrenica.

25     I'm not hiding anything.  I didn't take anything that was not used by the

Page 35396

 1     unit or in the office.

 2        Q.   At that time, were there any renegade Muslim groups consisting of

 3     their combatants anywhere around the area?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you make contact with them?  Was there shooting?

 6        A.   No, no.  But on the road to Milici, somewhere below Milici they

 7     killed a married couple.  They were in hiding.  They did not want to be

 8     discovered.  And I think that in Kupusina, perhaps some 20 days later,

 9     four Serbian lads were killed.  I don't know how they found themselves

10     there, whether they were soldiers or not.  In any case, there was an

11     errant group that had -- were captured later.  They were put on trial.  I

12     believe that they were in Zvornik, and then they were released from there

13     I think.  There were proceedings against them, but I don't know what the

14     outcome was.  In any case, they were captured, none of them were injured.

15     I don't know what was going on there.  I couldn't care less, to be

16     honest.

17        Q.   Just a moment, please.

18             Mr. Todorovic, thank you.  That was all we had for you.

19        A.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21             Mr. Todorovic, you'll now be cross-examined.  And there's still

22     ten minutes to go before we take another break.  You'll be cross-examined

23     by Mr. McCloskey.  You find him to your right.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel

24     for the Prosecution.

25             Please proceed.

Page 35397

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Todorovic.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   And we know each other from your prior testimonies in this

 6     case -- in this Tribunal, I should say.

 7        A.   Yes.  I was your witness.

 8        Q.   You testified as the Prosecution in the Todorovic case -- excuse

 9     me, in the Popovic case, the Tolimir case, and the Karadzic case, did you

10     not?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you tell us, you've mentioned this -- this group that Pecanac

13     was organising, that you Erdemovic went, and you say Franc Kos went as

14     well.  Who else besides Franc Kos and Erdemovic went in this group?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the name slowly.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name you mentioned a

17     second ago.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brano Gojkovic.  Stanko Savanovic.

19     Boris Popov.  Six, seven, or eight men.  I can't remember everybody.  It

20     was 20 years ago, but I'm sure of the three that I mentioned.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Well --

23        A.   If you have a name, jog my memory.  I'll confirm.

24        Q.   Marko?

25        A.   Boskic, yes.  And then Erdemovic joined them.  Erdemovic

Page 35398

 1     volunteered.  Nobody selected him.  He volunteered.

 2        Q.   And did you later learn what that group had actually been doing

 3     when they came back from their mission?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you ever learn what that group had been doing on the 15th

 6     and/or 16th of July?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what was that?

 9        A.   When Mr. Erdemovic was arrested or he surrendered - I don't know

10     what happened - and then he told the truth about everything that they had

11     done.

12        Q.   All right.  And have you had a chance to speak to the Defence in

13     this case before testifying today?

14        A.   Here?

15        Q.   Well, either here or somewhere else.

16        A.   I came straight from Montenegro to the room.  I never even took a

17     stroll around the town.

18        Q.   Did you have a chance to talk to Mr. Lukic or any of his

19     associates before testifying today?

20        A.   Only when they first asked me whether I could come here and

21     testify at the Tribunal on behalf of General Mladic.

22        Q.   All right.  And who was Pecanac, to your knowledge?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue.

24             Does this mean, Witness, that you didn't speak with any of the

25     Defence team members after you arrived in The Hague?

Page 35399

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I just spoke to the member of

 2     the Tribunal services who took me -- brought me here from the airport and

 3     received me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Victims and Witness Section, I take it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  These people, they

 6     waited for me at Amsterdam airport, they brought me to the hotel, and

 7     then they brought me to the Tribunal.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While there is --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While there's an intervention, Mr. McCloskey.  At

12     page 65, line 20, you asked the witness what was that with reference to

13     what it is that the group had done.  He never answered this question.  He

14     then told you that Erdemovic was arrested or surrendered and then he told

15     the truth about everything, but your question was what was that that they

16     did.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

18        Q.   Can you clear up this for us, Witness?  What was it that you

19     learned that this group had done when they went on the mission that you

20     have spoken of briefly today?

21        A.   When Erdemovic, a member of the 10th Sabotage Unit, surrendered

22     answer and when he arrived here and when he provided a statement, at that

23     moment I realised they that had done things that I was never aware of and

24     that the other soldiers who were not group members also didn't know

25     about.

Page 35400

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Still not answered.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   So what you mean when I ask you when did you learn about what

 4     that group had done, had you learned that they had gone and killed many

 5     hundreds of people based on what Erdemovic told you -- or excuse me, what

 6     Erdemovic had said in this courtroom?

 7        A.   Yes, Erdemovic said that he had participated in the killings of

 8     Muslims, i.e., Bosniaks, from Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   And you named this [sic] people that left on that mission just

10     now, and is it your understanding that Erdemovic had named many if not

11     the same people?

12        A.   I believe that he mentioned one group of people, the same group I

13     did.  I don't know if Erdemovic went on other missions when I was not

14     there and whether another group had gone on any missions before Erdemovic

15     and I spoke about that.  I don't know.  I did not have the right to ask

16     any questions of those soldiers, nor would they have dared give me any

17     answer, of course.

18        Q.   And you've testified that a Pecanac came by and wanted

19     Zoran Obrenovic to get a group to go on this -- go on a mission.  Who is

20     Pecanac, as far as you knew?

21        A.   Pecanac was an officer.  He was a member of the Main Staff and

22     sometimes he would introduce himself as the chief of security.  On other

23     days he would introduce him as aide-de-camp.  It depended on the day.  I

24     didn't socialise with him.  I don't know much about

25     them [as interpreted].  He was an officer, I was a soldier.  I was a

Page 35401

 1     member of another unit that had its commander, that respected its

 2     commander and obeyed him without any questions asked.  And Pecanac, as

 3     far as I'm concerned, I could just give him a glass of water if he got

 4     thirsty.  That was it.  That's the long and the short of the whole story.

 5        Q.   You've testified before about his connection with General Mladic.

 6     Tell us about that?

 7        A.   He -- I saw and I heard that he was a member of security.  I

 8     don't know whether the general and him spoke, what they spoke about.  And

 9     as far as I'm personally concerned in my unit, he didn't have anything to

10     do with us.  And whatever happened was of his own accord.  Nobody issued

11     any orders.  The general didn't and Pelemis didn't.  Somebody should

12     inform at least the command in Bijeljina where there was a desk officer

13     on duty.  Somebody should have picked up a phone and should have asked

14     somebody if --

15        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, this is very simple question and answer.  You've

16     described him as General Mladic's aide-de-camp or adjunct haven't you?

17        A.   Yes, that's he introduced himself to me.  So I stick by that.

18     Sometimes he would say that he was the chief of security.  I don't know

19     what he was.  I don't even know what the term "adjutant" means, whether

20     it's a rank or something else.  I just remember the term that he used.

21        Q.   And when you say chief of security, do you mean personal-type of

22     security or are you talking chief of security a la security officers for

23     the Drina Corps or the Main Staff or somewhere else?

24        A.   He could not be in the Drina Corps.  He was affiliated with the

25     Main Staff.  I don't know whether he [indiscernible] for the personnel,

Page 35402

 1     the barracks, or the general personally.  Obviously, each general in the

 2     army had his security.  I don't know who it was in this case.  That's how

 3     he introduced himself to me.  I didn't ask for any IDs.  I just take that

 4     at its face value.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             Before we take that break, I've got one question for you,

 8     Witness, which is the following.  Pelemis who was in command was absent.

 9     You said:  I saw him only back after the 21st or 22nd of July.  Who

10     replaced him?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it should have

12     been either the Slovenian or Luka Jokic.  Our territory was in Vlasenica,

13     so it should have been Luka Jokic.  But he wasn't there.  I don't know

14     where he was.  Maybe he was in the corps or perhaps at home.  Maybe he

15     had gone home to change his clothes or something.  I don't know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Who do you say you don't know where he was?  You

17     mean Pelemis?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about Jokic.  Pelemis

19     had been injured before that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now if Pelemis is supposed to be replaced by Jokic,

21     who would be replacing Jokic, if Jokic wasn't there?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If something had to be done within

23     the barracks perimeter, for example, receiving an order or mail, it would

24     have been me, if I was there.  And as for the rest, it had to be left

25     with the person at sentry duty who would then inform Commander Pelemis

Page 35403

 1     either by phone or by the corps mail.  I don't know how but I know that

 2     one could send that information by phone or by a different communications

 3     device.  It really didn't matter much that he was at hospital.  He could

 4     have still been informed and kept abreast.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you followed the conversation between Pecanac

 6     and Obrenovic, if I understood you well.  You described that

 7     conversation.  What was your position --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Pelemis, Obrenovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think I said Obrenovic but --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Pecanac.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now what do you think about what they

14     discussed?  Should a group be assembled and be sent on a mission, or

15     should you, you were -- at that moment, you said you should replace

16     Jokic.  Were you considering that it should not -- that what Pecanac had

17     requested should not be done or that it should be done?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he had asked me, I would not

19     have allowed him to do that.  I would have sent him packing and I would

20     have asked him to bring back a document.  I would have reacted

21     differently.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, who ordered you to prepare all the ammunition

23     that you packed?  Who did order you to do that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the vehicle pulled over in

25     front of the garage, the Slovenian got out.  And when he said combat kit,

Page 35404

 1     I knew.  I knew exactly what I should do just like every other time

 2     because I was in control of everything.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was the Slovenian?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was either a

 5     lieutenant.  He was a member of the sabotage unit, just like me.  He was

 6     Slovenian by origin.  I don't know how come he was a member of our unit

 7     and I never researched that.  He was a member of the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he order you to pack all this ammunition and

10     have it loaded?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me prepare everything that

12     we need for a mission, and I set out to carry out the order immediately.

13     And he signed the request.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And he was superior to you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment he was, indeed.

16     Because all I went by were the ranks of my officers.  I was not at all

17     interested in the ranks of others.  Pecanac certainly could not have

18     issued me any orders because he was not a member of my unit.  He did not

19     have the right to give me orders.  He did not have authority over my

20     unit, nothing.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But you accepted an order from the Slovenian of

22     which you said a minute ago:

23             "... he was either a lieutenant.  A member of the sabotage unit,

24     just like me."

25             You accepted his orders.  Is that your testimony?

Page 35405

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave it a bit of a thought.  I

 2     wanted to avoid any conflicts.  I thought, ah, well, I should comply with

 3     requests of both sides.  I first wanted them to talk to Pelemis, but

 4     everything was done in a haste, so I said, well, come as it may and to

 5     hell with it.  If I'd personally been asked and consulted, I would never

 6     have allowed that to happen.  If the mail had arrived in my hands, if it

 7     contained an order, I would have acted differently.  I would have called

 8     everything off for at least half an hour pending a final solution,

 9     because things were done without any papers, orders.  It wasn't preceded

10     by any telephone conversation.  The guy came into the barracks, he

11     wanted --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, a minute ago you told us that if Pelemis

13     was not there it was Jokic who would replace him.  Then I asked you who

14     would be in charge if Jokic wasn't there, and you said it was you

15     yourself.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pecanac never ever spoke to me

17     about any tasks or missions.  I did not interfere.  I would have

18     interfered if I had gotten an order from the Main Staff sent to Pelemis,

19     from Pelemis to me, and then whatever was contained in that order, I

20     should have obeyed that and I would have.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  At the very end, you assisted in providing the

22     ammunition and whatever was needed for that mission.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter to

25     2.00.  But you first follow the usher.

Page 35406

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Sir, The Slovene, that was the nickname for Franc Kos; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And tell us the first name of Pecanac?

10        A.   I think his name was Dragomir.

11        Q.   And what was his rank back in July 1995, as far as you knew?

12        A.   A captain or a major.  One of the two.  Major, rather.  Maybe ...

13        Q.   All right.  And you've acknowledged you testified at the Popovic

14     case, and I'm going to take us there and ask you a question or two about

15     Pecanac's position, something that you told us back then.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 32552.  Should be page 25 in e-court.

17        Q.   And this will just be English, so I'll read it slowly.  And on

18     line 6, you say:

19             "After a while, Mr. Pecanac arrived."

20             And you're asked:

21             "That's not a name we've heard before.  Can you tell us who

22     Mr. Pecanac is, a name during your testimony, you didn't mention him

23     before, who he is?"

24             And your answer was:

25             "He was the head of security, general's aide-de-camp.  I don't

Page 35407

 1     know how I should put it.  He was always with him.  He carried out his

 2     orders and looked after his security and he had some troops who provided

 3     security with him."

 4             And this reference to "him" and "he," that's General Mladic, I

 5     take it?

 6        A.   Well, that's how he introduced himself to us when we saw him in

 7     the field and --

 8        Q.   And my question is:  But your reference to "he" in this question

 9     was you were referring to that Pecanac was General Mladic's aide?

10        A.   Yes, that's how he introduced himself to us and I accept that.  I

11     mean, that's what he said and that's what I'm saying to you and that's

12     what I said to you.

13        Q.   You also say in this answer:  "He was always with him," meaning

14     General Mladic was always with him.  So ...

15        A.   Well, General Mladic cannot be with him.  He was supposed to be

16     near General Mladic.  All the officers of our army liked to be close to

17     General Mladic.

18        Q.   Yes.  But in this sentence, you tell the Court that Pecanac was

19     always with General Mladic; correct?

20        A.   Nearby, by him, around him.  Now, whatever all that means.  He

21     said that he was there.  Maybe he was just carrying papers around.  I

22     wasn't there by Pecanac and the general.

23        Q.   You also say that Pecanac carried out Mladic's orders.  So as far

24     as you knew, Pecanac would carry out General Mladic's orders; correct?

25        A.   Of course.  He wouldn't be carrying out my orders.  I carried out

Page 35408

 1     the orders of my commander too, whatever it was that he ordered.

 2        Q.   And you have in your various statements and testimonies mentioned

 3     another senior officer that came by the -- Dragasevac on the 15th that

 4     day, with Pecanac, haven't you?

 5        A.   Mr. Popovic?

 6        Q.   Yes.  Did Popovic come by with Pecanac that day on the 15th to

 7     Dragasevac?

 8        A.   Judging by the car and the licence plates, it's a car of the

 9     Drina Corps.  He drove it, or his driver, and I claim with full

10     responsibility to this day that Popovic did not enter the compound.  His

11     vehicle was outside the compound, say, about 30 metres away.  But I know

12     that vehicle.

13        Q.   And did -- you've always said that a -- a gate officer reported

14     who was in that vehicle to you; is that right?

15        A.   The officer from the gate said that Mr. Popovic's vehicle --

16     well, maybe that was a mistake in interpretation or translation.  But I

17     never said that he reported to Mr. Popovic personally.  He only could

18     have greeted Mr. Pecanac when entering.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Todorovic, whatever you testified in this Court

20     can you verified on the basis of the audio recordings, and then the

21     interpretation can be verified as well.

22             Is it your position that you never said that he reported to

23     Mr. Popovic personally?  Is that your position?  Because then we'll

24     verify it.  If you insist --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who's "he"?  I don't insist.  But I

Page 35409

 1     just want to know who "he" is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I leave this in your hands because I

 3     do not know whether he reported to Mr. Popovic, whether that is exactly

 4     what was said or not.  I just wanted to intervene to tell the witness

 5     that whatever he thinks is caused by an ill-interpretation, that we can

 6     verify it.  I leave it in your hands.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, let's see if can I help you.  We're going to go to the

 9     next page of your Popovic testimony back in 2007, and you may remember I

10     asked you this question on line 18:

11             "All right.  And did you actually see Mr. Popovic outside the

12     gate with his car or did someone just tell you that he was there?"

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This should be page 27.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Okay.  That was my question.  And your answer:

17             "The gate-keeper told us that Officer Popovic was outside.  This

18     person who was working, providing security for the base.  I suppose that

19     he must have seen his car and he must have assumed that he was there.

20     I'm sure he knew him."

21             And then if we go to page 40 in e-court, Judge Kwon asked you on

22     line 11:

23             "Mr. Todorovic, you told us that you heard from the gate-keeper

24     that Mr. Popovic was outside; is that correct?

25             "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes."

Page 35410

 1        A.   No, misinterpretation.  It cannot be an officer at the gate.  It

 2     can be a gate-keeper.  It is the gate-keeper that told me that Popovic's

 3     vehicle was parked about 20 metres away from the gate.  We did not have

 4     an officer at the gate.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the issue is not whether it was an officer but

 6     whether the person at the gate, the gate-keeper, that you heard from that

 7     person that Mr. Popovic was outside, which you --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that from him, and

 9     then I paid attention to the vehicle and I saw the vehicle.  It was a

10     cherry-coloured Golf of the Drina Corps, Drina Corps licence plates.  He

11     did not get out of the car, but I know the vehicle of the Drina Corps

12     that Mr. Popovic drove, said that it was his vehicle.  It should have

13     been him or his driver or someone.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But you were told that it was Mr. Popovic and you

15     saw a car which supported --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did not walk up.  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And getting back to your account when Pecanac told

20     Zoran Obrenovic to get a group of people together, and you say

21     Zoran Obrenovic refused.  And then you've told us before that Pecanac

22     focused his energies on another soldier and issued him the same

23     directive.  Can you tell us who that was?

24        A.   Brano Gojkovic.

25        Q.   And what did Pecanac said to Brano Gojkovic?

Page 35411

 1        A.   Well, I guess the same thing he said to Zoran.

 2        Q.   I don't want you to guess.  What did he say?  You were there.  We

 3     don't need exact words.

 4        A.   Well, issued him the same order that he had issued to

 5     Mr. Obrenovic.

 6        Q.   And I'm -- Brano Gojkovic knew who Pecanac was as you did, did he

 7     not?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you've also told us that you've heard Pecanac talking about

10     another senior officer.  Did Pecanac -- did you hear Pecanac say anything

11     about Beara?

12        A.   That he should see him, meet up with him.

13        Q.   So explain that, more detail.

14        A.   Well, if he were to go with that group, then he should meet with

15     Officer Beara on the Sekovici -- no, Dragasevac-Sekovici-Zvornik road.

16     No.  Either, in Sekovici or in Zvornik.  I don't know exactly.  I wasn't

17     present.  I don't know where they met.  Maybe it was Zvornik or Sekovici

18     where they met up.  I didn't ask Pecanac where he met up with him.

19        Q.   So Pecanac was ordering Gojkovic to take this group and meet up

20     with Beara.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you've also talked about being a logistics officer and

23     providing ammunition and some other materiels.  Do you remember providing

24     an actual handwritten document of some materiel?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35412

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we have 65 ter 05676.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what this is?

 3        A.   This is a document that was written by soldier Milesic, Milovan.

 4     This is an internal paper that he got --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

 6     his answer.  It was not understood.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have already said the

 9     witness is unintelligible.  Could he please repeat his answer.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, knowing that you're on the English

12     channel I thought that you would take action.  I left it to you.

13             Witness, could you restart your answer.  Perhaps, Mr. McCloskey,

14     if you would repeat the question, that would certainly assist.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Could I just ask you what this was.

17        A.   This was an internal paper that was used by soldier Milesic,

18     Milovan on the 14th when I was not there, and he wrote down what it was

19     that he issued to some people.

20             As for this ammunition, I don't know who he gave it to.  I just

21     registered it in my archives.  And then down it says fish, pate, spam,

22     paprika as usual.  Now, was this issued to the kitchen?  And then this

23     first thing.  Was it issued to some soldier as welfare?

24        Q.   Slow down.  We're having a hard time translating you.

25        A.   Okay.

Page 35413

 1        Q.   And this is a document that you have provided, is it not?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And this is material that went to the group with Brano Gojkovic

 4     on the 15th of July?

 5        A.   No, I issued everything on the 15th of July, whatever was needed.

 6     Fish, cold cuts.  This is not something that should be sent with anybody

 7     on a field mission.  Milovan Milesic, this is his handwriting.  This is

 8     an internal document.  This is to cover the things that were issued from

 9     the storage.  I copied that into my records.  At the end of war, I handed

10     over all of my records.  I this is not my handwriting.  I can prove that.

11        Q.   Let's go to the next page.

12        A.   The paper, actually, is mine.

13        Q.   Yes, we see special police detachment Sekovici on the top.  Was

14     that the unit that you were part of for a while and you weren't happy?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And so this notepad that this was written on was yours, as you

17     just said?

18        A.   It is possible that I brought it over from the unit.  Well, I'm

19     sure that I did, and I gave it to him to write on it.  This is an

20     internal document.  I don't know if you know the meaning of the word

21     "internal."  I used this paper to make official records, and then when my

22     duty is over, I hand the records over to in my command.

23        Q.   And looking at the 16 July entries, I'm interested in the

24     ammunition for M-84, 1200 pieces.  Is that the big machine-gun you spoke

25     about giving the group of Brano Gojkovic in your direct testimony?

Page 35414

 1        A.   This is ammo for M-84, which is a machine-gun.

 2        Q.   And that's the same -- for the same kind of machine-gun that you

 3     gave to the Brano Gojkovic group that you spoke about in direct

 4     testimony; correct?

 5        A.   I gave one to The Slovenian on the 15th.  This is not my

 6     handwriting.  It is my notepad, it belongs to my unit, but not my

 7     handwriting.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7379, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Now, I'd like to go very briefly back to 1992.  You said you were

13     in the Birac Brigade; is that right?

14        A.   Yes, the Birac Brigade.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we have 65 ter 32578.

16        Q.   And who was the commander of your brigade, if you recall?

17        A.   He was a captain by rank or perhaps it was even higher.

18     Svetozar Andric was his name.

19        Q.   Take a look at this, what's identified as a document from

20     10 July 1992 as an early promotion for Svetozar Andric, son of Petko.

21     Was that your commander that you're talking about?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And do you recall him getting a promotion while you were there?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

Page 35415

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7380, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   And who was your battalion commander while you were at the

 6     Birac Brigade.

 7        A.   I was in our Pelemis unit up to the 1st of September.  That's

 8     where I was assigned.

 9        Q.   In the village of Pelemisi?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And Milorad Pelemis has told us that during the summer of 1992

12     they held some women captive there at Pelemisi.  Is that true?

13        A.   Yes.  They were not held captive.  They were brought in order to

14     be exchanged for some people in Kladanj.  Stanimir, who was the police

15     commander, tried to do that because one of the policemen from his unit

16     who was also -- actually, he was an inspector, had been taken prisoner

17     over there, so he wanted to use those women and exchange them for that

18     prisoner.

19        Q.   So were they there voluntarily?

20        A.   I don't know how they came.  I didn't ask too many questions.  I

21     had a different job.  I guarded the line.  That was not my

22     responsibility.  That was not my call.  I did not attend the negotiations

23     between him and the other gentleman whose family name was also Pelemis.

24     His first name was Stanimir and he was the police commander.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we have 65 ter 31647.

Page 35416

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for it.

 2             Witness, you say, well, you are asking too many questions to you.

 3     But you said they were not held captive, so you claim to have some

 4     knowledge about whether they were there voluntarily on whether they were

 5     not free to move?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in one part of the village.

 7     I would go to the command from time to time.  Everybody moved around.

 8     There was no school there.  There was no prison there.  There were no

 9     bars on any windows.  All the houses were just normal village houses.

10     Not too big.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see those women?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Where did you see them?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the water well, in the centre of

15     the village.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You told us that they were there to be

17     exchanged.  Is it your view that if you are held ready for exchange that

18     you are free to just go your own way or is it ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We tried to establish

20     communications with the -- the other municipality of Kladanj using an

21     R -- RUP-station.  I don't know how they did that, why they did that.  I

22     was not part of that.  But I know that they were there.  They were doing

23     laundry by the well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to my question, but please

25     proceed.

Page 35417

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   And were they fraternising with your young Serb soldiers?

 3        A.   What do you mean "fraternising"?

 4        Q.   Were they enjoying their company?  Were the women enjoying the

 5     company of your Serb soldiers?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I can't understand the word "enjoy."  What do you

 7     mean, did they have cups of coffee, did they share food with them?  What

 8     do you mean by that?  I mean, the -- maybe socialising, what we call

 9     socialising in Bosnia is sitting down over a cup of coffee and joking and

10     talking, and things like that.

11        Q.   Yes, were the women socialising with the Serb soldiers, one or

12     more?

13        A.   There were some older geezers that guarded them.  They had

14     coffees with them.  Momir Gazevic [phoen], he was one of the locals.

15     Well, his name was also Pelemis.  And there was another, Sadaj [phoen], I

16     don't know what his name was, Ratko, it was a long time ago.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's look at this document.  This is just my final

18     question.

19        A.   Those houses were on the front line.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Those -- they were guarded, if I understand

21     you well?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   Just looking at this -- I'd like to ask you about this Slobodan

Page 35418

 1     Pajic, son of Milos.  Did you know him?

 2        A.   Where from?  There were a lot of Pajics there.

 3        Q.   You can see that he was a battalion commander for your brigade,

 4     the Birac Brigade in August of 1992.  Not saying he had to do anything

 5     with Pelemisi.  I just want to know if you remember him?

 6        A.   No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I see in the English translation that

 8     a person by the name of Slobodan Pajic -- oh, yes.  I see it on the

 9     right-hand side it's slightly different from what we see on the left-hand

10     side.  But it's a proposal for appointment of commanding officers.  Then

11     I think the appropriate question to be put to the witness would be

12     whether he is aware that a Slobodan Pajic who was described as a clerical

13     officer for logistic operations and deputy commander for logistics was

14     proposed for being appointed as, well, as infantry battalion commander.

15     But, again, it's -- the text of the document is not entirely clear to me.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, that's one reason why I was asking him.

17        Q.   We see here, sir, that it says "currently Vlasenica infantry

18     battalion commander," and we see the date of this.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the date of it or is that the date of

20     birth?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, just the date up -- 23 August 1992 is the

22     date of the document.

23        Q.   So just in looking at this, does this look like a document from

24     your brigade?

25        A.   It says that this is from the Vlasenica Battalion and the

Page 35419

 1     battalion of the Birac Brigade was in Trnovo, if that's the same

 2     Slobodan Pajic, son of Milos.

 3        Q.   How about Rade Bogunovic?  You'd certainly have heard it from

 4     him.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I know that my colleague McCloskey is passionate

 6     about his work, but our working day is over.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, your working day is not over yet, but court

 8     time is over, Mr. Lukic, that's not the same.

 9             Mr. McCloskey, indeed, my fellow Judge Moloto also hinted that

10     I'd forgotten about the time.  So did you.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.  I have nothing

12     further.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing further in cross.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I can get this into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P738 --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Only if it's --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

21             Could you please, Mr. Registrar, could you repeat the number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 31647 is Exhibit P7381, Your

23     Honours.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Before you admit, I would object.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is --  yes, you would like to object.

Page 35420

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  First, this witness has no

 2     knowledge about this and there is no stamp, there is no any kind of

 3     verification of this document.  At least what we have.  I have only one

 4     page.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, any answer to that.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was going through the document to check his

 7     familiarity.  We can do it tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would have you further questions for the witness

 9     anyhow Mr. -- I don't --

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Microphone not activated]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you switch on your microphone.

12             MR. LUKIC:  10, 15 minutes probably.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that the witness cannot be excused yet.

14             Therefore, Mr. McCloskey, if you would pay attention to this

15     tomorrow to start with, and then have you an opportunity to re-examine

16     the witness.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I -- just out of the realistic

18     thought that perhaps I may think of a few more questions overnight, if

19     you could leave me with a little bit of flexibility.  I won't be long and

20     I hope not to have any.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not intervene in -- when our working days

22     end, I also do not intervene in what you do at night as far as thinking

23     of further questions.  We'll see tomorrow what will come up and you'll

24     have an opportunity at least to put a limited number of questions

25     tomorrow morning.

Page 35421

 1             Mr. Todorovic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow, but I first

 2     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way

 3     with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony given today

 4     or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.

 5             We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  You may now

 6     follow the usher.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise to all those who suffered from me not

 9     I'm looking at the clock consistently, and luckily enough both Mr. Lukic

10     and my fellow Judge Moloto did a better job in that respect.

11             We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

12     12th of May, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

13                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of May,

15                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.