Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35422

 1                           Tuesday, 12 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Unexpectedly, Judge Fluegge is still not, for urgent personal

12     reasons, not available.  He is unable to continue to hear this case.  The

13     expectation still is that it will not last for more than five days.

14     Although we expect that he'll not be able to sit this week, we expect him

15     back the beginning of next week.  Judge Moloto and myself have considered

16     whether it would be in the interest of justice to continue to hear this

17     case, and we decided that it is.  So, therefore, we'll sit under Rule 15

18     bis for the remainder of this week, as far as we can oversee now.

19             Is the witness ready to be brought into the courtroom?  And is

20     the usher ready to bring him in?

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour.  I did

23     have a thought last night.  A few more minutes this morning, if I could.

24     It shouldn't take us long.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's a few.  You know, "few" is a relative

Page 35423

 1     concept.  If you would specify, that would even be an appreciated.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It shouldn't be more than ten minutes.  I --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a few.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've used about 50 of my hour and a halfs, so

 5     I'll well with -- well under.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, as far as the Chamber is concerned.

 7     And I see Mr. Lukic is also nodding that there is no objection on his

 8     side.

 9             Well, it's time to lower the level, the volume of your voice

10     again, Mr. Mladic.  If there's anything you want to bring to the

11     attention of this Chamber, Mr. Lukic will certainly assist you in doing

12     it.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.  Before we continue --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

18     you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

19     beginning of your testimony.

20             Mr. McCloskey has a few more questions for you.

21             Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN TODOROVIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

Page 35424

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   This morning, I want to show you a short video and ask you a

 4     question or two about it.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to P1147.

 6        Q.   That's from our trial video.  It's what we believe to be

 7     13 June 1996 in the area of Zepa.  We'll see General Mladic at a table

 8     with others.  And I'll ask you a question or two.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a portion that was played before?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have seen this.  It does

11     have subtitles.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It has subtitles and it has all been verified.

13     Therefore no need to play it twice.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it's in evidence.  There's never been an

15     objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, let's play it.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "When we finished with that, we

20     started the operation of capturing Avdo Palic, Major Pecanac, whom I

21     sacrificed and infiltrated, stood out there.  I told him:  'Young man,

22     you're going there.'  And he says: 'Boss, will we see each other again?'

23     'We'll see each other young man, and if not fuck you.  Go and do your

24     job.'

25             "Slowly, slowly, I know that.  I'll tell everything."

Page 35425

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we play it one more time without the

 2     English translation so that we hear General Mladic, and we're starting at

 3     28.0.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to hear General Mladic as well on the

 5     English channel, because I take that the witness has heard him.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I -- if everyone could hear General Mladic

 7     so we get the idea of the tone and such.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll play it again.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we've stopped at 28.56.5.

11        Q.   Do you recognise the man with his arms crossed in the centre of

12     this photo?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And who is it?

15        A.   Major Pecanac.

16        Q.   And you heard General Mladic and what he had to say.  That --

17     about mentioning Major Pecanac.  General Mladic said that in a rather

18     personal way, don't you think?

19        A.   That was a part of his private conversation.  A relaxed

20     atmosphere, not a combat task; simple conversation at a table.  Obviously

21     they were celebrating something.  It was a private exchange.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'll ask you a similar --

23        A.   That was in 1996.

24        Q.   But it shows a personal connection between Mladic and Pecanac,

25     doesn't it?

Page 35426

 1        A.   Of course.  They were officers.  They were members of the

 2     Main Staff.  They socialised.  This is somewhere in a meadow.  It is the

 3     year 1996.  They just socialised.  This is a private event, as it were.

 4     There's nothing out of the ordinary here.

 5        Q.   All right.  And we heard Mladic say:

 6             "When we finished with that we started the operation of capturing

 7     Avdo Palic, Major Pecanac, whom I sacrificed and infiltrated, stood out

 8     there."

 9             What happened to Avdo Palic?

10        A.   As far as I know, he was negotiating the safe exit of the BiH

11     army from Zepa to avoid casualties.  They got in touch with him and made

12     a deal for the troops, the wounded, and the civilian population to get

13     out of there.

14        Q.   Do you know that he was held by the VRS and murdered?

15        A.   Everything is possible.  I don't know what happened to him.  But

16     I know that he was involved in negotiations.

17        Q.   Let's go to one more video on this topic of the relationship

18     between General Mladic and Mr. Pecanac.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It is 01299a.  And this is from a video that was

20     retrieved from a search of General Mladic's home in Belgrade.  We believe

21     it's in about June of 1997 associated with the celebrations surrounding

22     General Mladic's son and his wedding, Darko Mladic.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And there's really nothing much to hear so there

25     has been no transcript, no translation.

Page 35427

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'll not rely on the text, we'll put the volume

 2     low.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could get the volume up a little bit so

 5     that we hear this.  Thank you.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And did you recognise a famous Yugoslav song, the "Dotako sam dno

 9     zivota" by Tomo Draskovic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And this is a love song about hell in the abyss and sorrow and

12     pain?

13        A.   Well, it depended on the interpretation.  This is a typical pub

14     song.  This is what you sing when you're relaxed, in a bar.

15        Q.   And who was the man holding General Mladic, singing with him?

16        A.   Major Pecanac.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I would offer this clip into

18     evidence and have no further questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number of this clip would be.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7382, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  I see that it -- that the

22     CD is provided.

23             Mr. Lukic, you announced yesterday that you would need another 10

24     to 15 minutes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 35428

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, once again, good morning.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I won't focus on the video-clips.  We have to focus on what was

 7     said yesterday in this courtroom.  You mentioned The Slovenian and my

 8     colleague, Mr. McCloskey, clarified that and established that you meant

 9     Franc Kos when you had -- when you said The Slovenian?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   On transcript page 35404, he asked you -- or, rather, Judge Orie

12     asked you whether he was your superior at the moment when Pecanac turned

13     up and you said on line 15 that he was at that moment, indeed.  My

14     question is this:  Were you in a position to issue orders to The

15     Slovenian?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   When it comes to the hierarchy of the 10th Sabotage Detachment,

18     was Franc Kos actually above you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Also on transcript page 35406, lines 16, through page 35408, line

21     1, you talked about Pecanac, about whether he was the aide-de-camp of

22     General Mladic, whether he was close to him, whether he carried out

23     General Mladic's orders.  Were you ever present when General Mladic

24     issued an order to Major Pecanac?

25        A.   No.

Page 35429

 1        Q.   At that time, did you see Pecanac with General Ratko Mladic?

 2        A.   You mean in Dragasevac?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours I would like to clarify some

 6     translation.  Yesterday at page 35402, line 25, sentry duty was

 7     mentioned.  Then it was translated on page 35408, line 15, as the same

 8     words as officer from the gate.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I don't know whether we should invite the

10     witness to take his earphones off --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you deal with any matter that --

13     Mr. Todorovic, do you understand the English language?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Since the witness took his headphones off, he always

17     used the same term and the term is recorded as his previous testimony at

18     page 35410 as "gate-keeper."  So it could create some confusion, but I

19     think that every time, actually, this gentleman said "gate-keeper," so if

20     you -- I don't know how we could clarify with him, the English versions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's -- one second.

22             You say he always used the same term and the term is recorded in

23     his -- as his previous testimony as "gate-keeper."

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you say at least that is how it is translated to

Page 35430

 1     us that he actually said "gate-keeper," so that's for me the same.

 2             Now, I think if you have any concerns about confusion, then I

 3     think the best way of dealing with it is that you use the word he used in

 4     his own language, and then you ask him to explain what that word means

 5     for him, that he can describe what a gate-keeper's task is or what his

 6     duty is and how he performs that duty.  I think that's the most

 7     appropriate way of clarifying the issue.

 8             Witness, "Svedok."

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday you mentioned the reception.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Who was there at the entrance to your base?

14        A.   The four elderly men working there.  They were mobilised.  They

15     were gate-keepers.  They had to register everybody who entered the

16     barracks, their names, the registration plates of the vehicles.  Nobody

17     could enter the compound if they did not report to them.  They were

18     gate-keepers.  They were soldiers, foot soldiers, but somewhat older than

19     the rest of us.  I can give you their names, if necessary.

20        Q.   Go on.  Give us the names.

21        A.   Vojislav Obrenovic was one of them.  Ratko Tomic,

22     Slobo Vasiljevic, Milan Simanic.  From time to time, they would be

23     replaced by one of our soldiers from the detachment to relieve one of

24     those people who were constantly on the gate-keeping duty.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that this is a good enough explanation.  At

Page 35431

 1     least for our purposes.

 2        A.   Well, I'm glad that I could tell that you none of them were

 3     officers, that they were simple gate-keepers.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, just to avoid whatever confusion, when you

 6     say that one of the gate-keepers, as you called them, was

 7     Vojislav Obrenovic, that is not the same person as Zoran Obrenovic.  Is

 8     that correctly understood?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to be sure that there's no confusion.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And now I would like to tackle another topic.  On page 35415, and

16     also on page 35416 of the transcript, there was a reference made to the

17     women that were in Pelemis; they were Muslims.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Those women, were they released at one -- at one moment?

20        A.   Those women were supposed to be exchanged for Stanimir Pelemis

21     who had been in charge of that activity.  He organised everything.  I

22     don't know whether he consulted with Pelemis, whether that was approved

23     or not.  I did not have access to the command.

24        Q.   Perhaps I was not clear enough.  Do you know -- and if you don't,

25     just tell us so.  Do you know if those women left to the site under the

Page 35432

 1     control of the Muslim army?

 2        A.   Groups passed by.  Some were returned to Vlasenica, the others to

 3     Batkovic.  Miso did not allow them to enter the village because we didn't

 4     know then how the line would be maintained, what would happen, and things

 5     were done in a haste.

 6        Q.   Very well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Still not a clear answer.

 8             First of all, do you have any personal knowledge as to what

 9     happened to these women?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that one group arrived.  I

11     don't know where from.  And I personally escorted them to the school and

12     then they went to the BiH army line.  I was the one in charge.  They all

13     passed.  They were not interrogated.  Nothing happened to them.  A

14     corridor was opened.  I escorted them.  They still live there today.

15     Some of them I know.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  This is too fast.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, was anything or any person received in

18     exchange for these women leaving for BiH-controlled territory?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So there was no exchange.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally let them through.  We

22     didn't know what to do with them.  We didn't have anything to eat, never

23     mind to keep them too.  The line was open.  I took them in front of our

24     line and I brought them almost in front of their line.  And then when I

25     was coming back, I encountered an ambush set up for me by the B and H

Page 35433

 1     army.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But yesterday you told us, I think several times,

 3     that they were held ready for an exchange; but finally they were not

 4     exchanged, if I understand you well, because nothing was received in

 5     return.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the first group that was

 7     brought.  Six women and seven, eight, nine, ten men.  They were taken

 8     back somewhere.  I don't know where.  I did not take part in that.  I

 9     know about this group, 100 per cent, that I took through that all of them

10     passed through.  As for these others that were taken away, I don't know

11     if they were take back to Vlasenica, Sekovici, I don't know.  I went to

12     prepare the assault detachment in Vlasenica to fix up the dormitories,

13     the barracks.  I went there from time to time.  I don't know what was

14     happening.  I was coming and going.  But --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm a bit confused because we're not talking about

16     two groups, whereas yesterday we were talking only about one group.

17             Now, yesterday you told us that these were the woman who did the

18     laundry and questions were put to you on whether they socialised with

19     young Serb soldiers.  Now, was that the group that was held ready for

20     exchange?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm talking about now is the

22     first group of six women and those men, the ones that were doing the

23     laundry.  I don't know where they were returned to and to whom.  There

24     was no exchange.

25             As and for this other group that I took, I released them in front

Page 35434

 1     of our lines between the two lines of front lines.  At the line of

 2     separation.  And not a single hair on their head was harmed.  They went

 3     through and they're still alive to this day.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you say, talking about that first group, I

 5     don't know where they were returned to and to whom.  There was no

 6     exchange.  If you don't know where they went, how could you know that

 7     they were not exchanged?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't there when I -- they

 9     weren't there when I came back there for the second and the third time.

10     I didn't see anybody of them there.  I mean, it's a small village.  You

11     can see all the houses there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's just a conclusion that because you didn't

13     see them when you dealt with the second group, that it is your conclusion

14     that they were not exchanged, although you have no knowledge as to where

15     they went and how they went there?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you please tell us and can we -- we can go into private

20     session if you think it's necessary.  Could you please tell us the names

21     of the people in the group that you took.

22        A.   These were people from Vlasenica whom I didn't know but I know

23     where one of the women lives.  In Kladanj, in Sigonsko Naselj [phoen], I

24     know a lady very well.  I took her to get some papers.  She left a

25     daughter.  Her name is Jasmina.  The little girl was taken care of.  She

Page 35435

 1     was exchanged.  Her name was Irma.  She's already a young woman now, the

 2     same age as my son.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say these were people from Vlasenica, are you

 4     talking about the first group, or are you talking about the second group?

 5     The group you dealt with personally.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second group.  Thank God they

 7     all passed through.  They're all alive.  And most of them relocated all

 8     over Europe.  Some of them even got to the United States.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And earlier you said you knew these people in the

10     group you dealt with personally, and now you say, apart from Irma, you --

11     no, the transcript is not complete.  I have some difficulties in ...

12             MR. LUKIC:  I'll continue with the line of questions.  Maybe it

13     would clarify, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's my recollection that I heard in the

15     English language, although it doesn't appear on the transcript, the word

16     "exchanged."

17             I don't know whether that's -- but please continue at this time,

18     Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, was this group exchanged for

21     someone or were they released to go to the other side?

22        A.   The one that I took?

23        Q.   The one that you took.

24        A.   Well, this is being treated differently.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

Page 35436

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please slow down.  The

 3     interpreters have problems in following you.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Okay, okay.

 5             [Interpretation] Everyone was released, and in our area, we say,

 6     well, let's just exchange them without any compensation.  I was proud to

 7     have done that.  I am glad to say that they were all alive.  Today, I

 8     don't have any comment on that, and you can treat it as if I said it was

 9     an exchange or if they were freed.  I am not well versed in legal

10     language.  I'm just speaking in regular people talk.  They were all

11     released safely.  All the children are well.  There are no consequences

12     for me or for them.  Nobody on the Serbian side mistreated them while I

13     was taking them through the village.  It all went according to the most

14     proper order.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And how many people were there in that group that you took

17     through?

18        A.   There were plenty of them.  They were not recorded.  There was

19     not list or anything like that.  They were just brought there up until

20     behind our line to some village, Morica Volikuca [phoen] it's called, and

21     they wanted to release them there, and then it turned out that there was

22     some contacts, and then we provided some trucks, and I took them directly

23     through the line and let them go.  They're alive to this very day.  Some

24     of them are in Kladanj.  I'm from Kladanj.  I don't know them

25     individually by name, but I know where they are and who they are.

Page 35437

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us this.  You said that there

 2     were many of them.  Were there 10, 50, 100?  Can you give us a figure?

 3        A.   Well, there was a bus.  As many people that can fit into a bus.

 4     There were children there, women, elderly people.  I took them all

 5     through nicely.  I let them go.

 6        Q.   Irma, this little girl, where was she accommodated?

 7        A.   She was placed with a family, the family of Jerko Vucinovic.

 8        Q.   And how long did Irma stay in that house?

 9        A.   Well, she stayed there.  My son was there also, my child.  I

10     think maybe for a year.  Perhaps less or perhaps longer.  Because I

11     wasn't there anymore.  I moved to Vlasenica.  But I went there to visit

12     my wife and my child from time to time.  They were together.

13        Q.   Jerko Vucinovic, what happened to him?

14        A.   Jerko was just a regular man.  He was on the line, he had his own

15     household, and he was captured in one of the attacks.

16        Q.   Since this was not on the line of questions put to you by the

17     Prosecutor, I'm going to -- well, what did Jerko tell you?  Just briefly.

18     Was he released and what did he tell you?

19        A.   Mr. Jerko, when he was released, he said that that little girl,

20     who's already a young girl now, had saved him when he -- when she came to

21     Tuzla to visit the prison.  She called him uncle and she sat in his lap.

22        Q.   Just one more question, Mr. Todorovic.  When you saw these women

23     next to the water, that first group we're talking about --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- in the centre of the village, were they under any guard?  Did

Page 35438

 1     any armed persons guard them by the water?  Were they taken there, did

 2     you see it?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   You didn't see or there were no guards?

 5        A.   There was nobody there.  There is the centre of the village.

 6     There were not enough soldiers to -- to supply the line properly, never

 7     mind this.

 8        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, thank you.  These are all the questions that we

 9     had for you.

10        A.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This group of women was never guarded, Witness?

14        A.   There was an old man with them.  We used to call him Uncle Momir.

15     He was a grandpa.  I mean, if he can be considered as a person who

16     guarded them, I don't know.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there only one person who was in such a position

18     which you could consider as being guarding the women?

19        A.   I saw him there with them.  I wasn't there all the time, so I

20     can't really say anything more than that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yesterday you told us that there were some

22     older geezers that guarded them.  So then you were talking in the plural

23     and not -- although you specified one person, you talked about more

24     persons.

25        A.   Well, he couldn't be there all the time.  There were a couple of

Page 35439

 1     grandpas there, a couple of elderly women, a couple of kids of ours of

 2     Serbian ethnicity.  There were always 20 or 30 people around that water,

 3     men, women, children, when there was no shelling.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now are you telling at this moment that when

 5     you said there was a couple of grandpas there, there were always 20 or 30

 6     people there - men, women, and children - but the women and the children

 7     were not the guards but were then guarded, weren't they?

 8        A.   Probably one of the -- of these men had to be there.  Look --

 9     to -- to look at them.  I mean, to keep an eye on them.  There was no

10     need for a lot of guards, ten guards or anything like that.  The only

11     danger was from the shelling.  I really didn't know anything about it.  I

12     couldn't do anything, go up there.  I -- this was at a higher level.  I

13     am just a -- I was a regular soldier.  And I was told to do this or do

14     that.  I didn't couldn't constantly spend time there with those people

15     and those men and those women in the village.  I had to work.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, now, there's a suggestion in your answer,

17     and I give you an opportunity to comment on that, that these women were

18     guarded in order to protect them against shelling.  I don't know how that

19     works, but if you have any explanation for that, or if you didn't suggest

20     that, but that's how I understood it.

21        A.   I said that -- I said that there would always be 20 or 30 men

22     there, women, elderly men, and there was no other danger for them there

23     other than shelling, and that there was a man there who kept an eye on

24     them so that they could be taken into the house where they were

25     accommodated.  I mean, nobody can save you from a shell.  I know very

Page 35440

 1     well what I said.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you introduced spontaneously yesterday the word

 3     "guarded," isn't it?  Not specifically asked about whether they were

 4     guarded.  The question about whether they socialised, and then you came

 5     up with that they were guarded.

 6        A.   I had to say that that man who was with them, that Momir, I

 7     couldn't call him a shepherd.  I had to call him a guard, security.  I

 8     can't call him a shepherd.  These are not sheep.  These are people.

 9     These were women that he was keeping an eye on.  Well, we can put it like

10     that, that he was keeping an eye on them.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, any further questions for the

12     witness.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to take some -- a brief moment to

14     clear up some of the Pelemisi issues that have been raised here.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

17        Q.   Sir, what happened to the 16-year-old Muslim girl that was held

18     at Pelemisi?  Her name is Ferida Osmanovic.

19        A.   I was in the field with soldiers also.  And when I came back from

20     the field with the rest of the soldiers, somebody reported to the chief

21     that she had been mistreated.

22        Q.   How so?  How was she mistreated?

23        A.   Yes, by a soldier.

24        Q.   She had been raped; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35441

 1        Q.   She was raped repeatedly while she was there, wasn't she?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I didn't learn anything about that case, who raped

 3     her, how many times.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  We did not hear the last sentence by the

 5     witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last sentence.  You said:

 7             "I didn't learn anything about that case, who raped her, how many

 8     times."

 9             What did you then say?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not deal with that case

11     because I didn't have access.  I couldn't investigate who was in question

12     or what happened.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   But this was reported to the Commander Miso Pelemis; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  And he punished that soldier.  I know that he was beaten,

16     that a report was drafted and present -- submitted to the brigade.

17     That's all I know about that case.

18        Q.   So Svetozar Andric would have known about it as well as the

19     brigade commander?

20        A.   I don't know, really.

21        Q.   So who is --

22        A.   As for Svetozar, I --

23        Q.   So who is this person that was punished, the person that did the

24     raping?

25        A.   I don't know.  It was a man from the brigade, from the brigade,

Page 35442

 1     from the group of people who were on the line.  I don't have a list.  I

 2     don't know.  There were people there who had come from the outside, who

 3     were displaced.  I didn't look into that.  Simply, for me, as far as I

 4     was concerned ...

 5        Q.   Sir, we've heard from Miso Pelemis.  We know that this was a

 6     small group of individuals and a small unit.  You've described hearing

 7     about the raping and you've described hearing about the punishment, the

 8     beating of the soldier that did it.  We know there is a name in your

 9     head.  Tell us that name of the soldier that did the beating -- excuse

10     me, that did the raping.

11        A.   There are many names of officers and soldiers in my head, the war

12     lasted for four years, and I would not want to do an injustice to any of

13     those people and regret it the next day.  I did not conduct an

14     investigation about the case.  There are records about it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you here.  No one asked you

16     whether you investigated.  Have you ever heard a name of a person who

17     committed that rape?  If so, tell us what name you heard.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Little Ferida Osmanovic, a 16-year-old, was found in a mass grave

21     within 5 kilometres of Pelemisi with 59 other people.  How did she get

22     there?

23        A.   Please believe me when I say that I don't know whether she was

24     returned to Vlasenica again or taken from Vlasenica.  I cannot comment.

25     I wasn't there.  I am a member of the assault detachment that -- in

Page 35443

 1     Vlasenica.  I went to Pelemisi from time to time to see my family where

 2     my wife and my son were.  I didn't go to the line until 1993 when the

 3     line fell for the first time.

 4        Q.   Do you know what happened to the other three women that were

 5     found in that mass grave?  They were in their 20s.  Aida Karac, her

 6     sister Velida Karac?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And Minka, Minka Mehanovic.  You remember Minka, don't you?  How

 9     did she end up in that mass grave?

10        A.   I cannot remember.  I don't know.

11        Q.   Too many mass graves, too many rapes.  Is that why you can't

12     remember?

13        A.   I don't know.  All I know is that I did not hurt anyone and that

14     I can stand before anyone.  All those who were there, who met me, who got

15     to me from the Muslim ethnic group, I am available to all of them.  I

16     cannot comment on who did what.  I don't have information about that.  We

17     all need to live.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I've one or more questions for you.

20                           Further questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- what Mr. McCloskey now put to you, that

22     women were found in mass graves, even young females.  Have you heard

23     about that before, or is it entirely new to you that you hear all this

24     and you say:  Well, I wasn't there.  I can't explain.  But did you hear

25     that before?

Page 35444

 1        A.   When the excavation of the graves began, of course I heard about

 2     it.  The whole municipality, the whole country knew about it.  This was

 3     behind our lines.  I didn't go there.  The line was in front of the

 4     Pelemisi and this happened behind the lines.  There is the

 5     Vlasenica-Sekovici-Zvornik road.  Anybody could kill anybody overnight or

 6     transfer them so nobody would know about it.  I didn't do any of that.  I

 7     cannot comment on it.  I was there.  I can talk about things that I

 8     knew -- know about.  I cannot talk about things that I don't know about.

 9     I'm not a direct participant or perpetrator in the comings and goings

10     there.  I sent these people off to Kladanj and, as I say again, they're

11     all still alive.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you're talking about the people you dealt

13     with directly?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And for those you did not deal with directly, could

16     you tell us that mass grave, and -- was that within the territory

17     controlled by the Serb forces, or was it within the territory at the time

18     controlled by the Muslim forces?

19        A.   No, this was territory that was controlled by the Serbian army

20     but behind the line of the Serbian soldiers.  I don't know what was

21     happening behind the line, what was done, when was done, in -- when it

22     was done, in which period.  I lived my life around Vlasenica and the

23     assault detachment.  That's where I was.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm asking you this because in your testimony

25     earlier, you depicted the situation as one of respect and not harming any

Page 35445

 1     civilians; whereas, if I understand you well, that you at least learned

 2     about that not all civilians were treated in the way as you described the

 3     others and that they were found in mass graves.  Is that correctly

 4     understood?

 5        A.   All the civilians that I had anything to do with, the civilians

 6     that I met during the war, they're all alive.  I can give you their first

 7     and last names.  Muras Mazelovic [phoen], Nadja from Srebrenica.  With

 8     this group that I took through --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you there.  I wasn't asking about

10     the ones you dealt with personally, but you told us also about the fate

11     of others and what happened to them, although not with details, and you

12     didn't tell us at that time that at least you learned that some of those

13     you did not deal with directly, that they ended up in mass graves;

14     whereas, I now understand that you learned that this was the case.

15        A.   I had to know.  Once the excavations began, I read about it in

16     the newspaper.  A grave found in Pelemis.  I saw it on television.  But I

17     wasn't there myself.  I learned about it all from the media.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, how did you come to know that the soldier who

21     raped Ferida Osmanovic was beaten?

22        A.   You heard immediately along the whole line.  As soon as they

23     bring the food, you find out what's going on in the village.  That's how

24     it was.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not sure whether you understood my question.

Page 35446

 1     I'm talking about the soldier you told us was beaten as punishment for

 2     raping Ferida Osmanovic.  I'm asking you how did you know that he was

 3     beaten for that?

 4        A.   The whole line was talking about it, that he had been beaten

 5     because of the rape.  The entire Serbian line guarding Pelemisi knew why

 6     he was beaten and why he was driven away from the line.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And he was known, who he was?

 8        A.   Probably.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure -- do you -- do you also know his name?

10        A.   There were many things that were known and many things that were

11     not known.  I personally didn't know that person.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you there.  I'm not asking you about

13     many things that were known.  I want to know if you knew this man.  He

14     was a soldier with you in the same unit.  Did you know him?

15        A.   He was not a member of my unit.  In my unit, none of the soldiers

16     did anything in front of me, nor do I -- nor am I aware that they did

17     anything improper.  He was a member of the Trnovska Battalion.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I understand that.  I'm sorry to have said

19     he belonged to your unit.  But you were -- he was at the same base as you

20     were?

21        A.   He was not my soldier.  He was somebody else's soldier.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I haven't suggested that now.  I said I understand

23     that you say he was not a part of your unit.  But he was in the same base

24     where Ferida was detained and where other women were detained and where

25     you also worked, didn't you?

Page 35447

 1        A.   I was not with him.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not saying you were with him.  I'm saying he

 3     was based at the same area, in the same place where you were based, at

 4     the camp where these people were detained.  You brought another group

 5     there and took it away.

 6        A.   First of all, it was not a camp.  It was a private house.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whatever it was.

 8        A.   A store.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whatever it was, you were there, he was there.

10     This lady was raped there.  I'm not suggesting [Overlapping speakers] --

11        A.   At that moment when the girl was raped, I was not there.  I told

12     you quite loud and clear that I was on a mission, and when I returned

13     from the mission --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you can just listen to my question.  I'm not

15     asking whether you saw him rape.  I'm asking how you came to know that he

16     was beaten.  You say it was all known about the line, and I'm saying who

17     was the person who was said to have been beaten.  That's the question I'm

18     putting to you.

19        A.   I can't remember the name.  There were a lot of soldiers.  I

20     don't want to transgress against anybody.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You've answered my question.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

23             Mr. Todorovic, this concludes your evidence.  I'd like to thank

24     you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered

25     the questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you

Page 35448

 1     by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow

 2     the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We're about to take a break.  Is the Defence ready

 6     to call its next witness immediately after the break?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume --

 9     Mr. McCloskey, there was one item left yesterday where there were some

10     objections.  Is that what you want to address?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, exactly.  65 ter 31647, if -- it was

12     assigned P07381.  If that objection is still present, I will withdraw it.

13     Perhaps Mr. Lukic would not object and it will come in.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I think we will maintain the same objections,

16     Your Honour, because we have to see what kind of document it is.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Fair enough.  If we could just MFI that and we'll

18     get back to it at some point.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  I don't know whether the number

20     was reserved or whether it was MFI'd.

21             Mr. Registrar, could you assist.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The number was assigned, Your Honours, but there

23     was an objection in between so -- [Overlapping speakers].

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so we have not yet ...

25             65 ter 31647 received number, Mr. Registrar?

Page 35449

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  P7381, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P7381.  And is marked for identification.

 3             When could we hear from the parties so that it doesn't remain

 4     forever on our pending issues list.  This week, Mr. Lukic?

 5             That's on the record.

 6             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the next witness to be escorted

10     into the courtroom.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a digression while

12     we're waiting for the witness.  She cannot read very well, so instead of

13     asking her to read the solemn declaration, maybe you should actually say

14     the words first and ask her to repeat after you.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is it a matter of sight, or is it a

17     matter of literacy?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Both, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, madam.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

22     make a solemn declaration, and therefore I'll first speak those words and

23     invite you to repeat them, and I'll take it in small portions.

24             Could you please repeat the following words:  I solemnly declare.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

Page 35450

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That I will speak the truth.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I'll speak the truth.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing but the truth.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8                           WITNESS:  SLAVKA MATIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

11     You find Mr. Stojanovic standing to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel

12     for Mr. Mladic.  Carefully listen to his questions and please answer

13     them.

14             Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

18        A.   Good morning to you too.

19        Q.   Could you please slowly tell us your name.

20        A.   My name is Slavka Matic.

21        Q.   Could you please tell the Chamber where and when were you born.

22        A.   I was born in 1944 in Srebrenica municipality, Opati village.  Is

23     that what you wanted me to say?

24        Q.   Madam, where did you reside before 1992?

25        A.   I resided in Bjelovac village, Bjelovac local commune.

Page 35451

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Madam, do you remember the date - that is

 2     month and the day - on which you were born in 1944?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 10th -- on the 13th of October.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Madam, who did you live with in 1992 in Bjelovac village?

 7        A.   I lived with my family:  My husband Radivoje, my older daughter

 8     Snezana, my younger daughter Gordana.

 9        Q.   Do you remember and can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the

10     year of birth of your husband, Radivoje?

11        A.   He was born in 1937.  I believe that he was born in the month of

12     January, but that's all -- I can't remember the date when he was born.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When was your daughter Snezana born?

14        A.   In 1965, on the 15th of June.

15        Q.   And what about your younger daughter, Gordana, when was she born?

16        A.   In 1967.  Also in the month of June but on the 9th.  She was born

17     on the 9th of June.

18        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were when the

19     war broke out in Srebrenica and Bratunac?

20        A.   I was in my family house.  I had always lived there.

21        Q.   Did you work at the time?

22        A.   No.  And then during the war, I was working in the kitchen.  I

23     volunteered and I distributed food to the guards and everybody else.  To

24     the locals as well.

25        Q.   And what about your husband?  Was Radivoje employed before the

Page 35452

 1     war?

 2        A.   Yes, he worked at the Sase mine in Srebrenica municipality.

 3        Q.   In your village, before the month of December 1992, were there

 4     any fightings, shootings, and military activities?

 5        A.   No.  There were village guards.  There was sporadic shooting at

 6     us.  Our men responded and that went on up to the 14th December 1992.

 7        Q.   Tell us, before December 1992, your husband and your daughters,

 8     did they live with you in Bjelovac?  Did you all live together?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was your husband militarily engaged in any way?

11        A.   I suppose so.  Because he also kept guard during the night.  I

12     never asked him what he did there, but I know that he did keep guard.

13        Q.   How far from your village and from your houses were the positions

14     of the enemy from which shots came?

15        A.   I don't know exactly how far they were in kilometres.  As the

16     crow flies, it would have been about a kilometre and a half or 2, tops.

17        Q.   Could you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what you did with

18     regard to the distribution of food during the first months of the war.

19     How was that organised?

20        A.   For example, we received dry foods and then we distributed those

21     to the guards, and that went on for perhaps a couple months during the

22     months of May and June.  And then later - I don't know when exactly, I

23     don't know the date - we had a kitchen installed in the school because

24     the other villages Loznica, Sikiric, which were a bit further away from

25     us, had been expelled, people were dying there, so those people came down

Page 35453

 1     to the field where our village was by the Drina river.  Our village is in

 2     a valley by a road.

 3        Q.   Did you personally prepare food in that school or did you just

 4     distribute it?

 5        A.   Yes, with a neighbour of mine who was there with me.  We would

 6     prepare cabbage, potatoes, beans, things like that, and then we would

 7     distribute those.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Your examination will be short.  Therefore, I will

 9     ask you to tell us where you were in the morning on the

10     14th December 1992?

11        A.   I was at home.  I got up at quarter past 6.00 because I worked in

12     the first shift.  I had to go there and distribute breakfast together

13     with my neighbour.  That was at 6.15.

14             I left the house and then I walked towards the school.  I was

15     halfway there.  I had a wrist-watch.  Shooting started.  I didn't know

16     what was going on.

17        Q.   Let me stop you there for a moment.  Where were you physically

18     when that shooting started?

19        A.   Some 250 to 300 metres away from my house, on the way to the

20     school.  Because my house was 700 metres away from the school.  In other

21     words, less than a kilometre.

22        Q.   Where did the shots come from?  From which direction?

23        A.   I can't really explain.  It came from all over the place.  On the

24     left of my house is a hilltop and a forest, and on the right-hand side is

25     the Drina river.  So the shooting covered the entire area.

Page 35454

 1        Q.   What did you do?  Where did you find yourself after that?

 2        A.   I continued walking towards the school.  As I approached the

 3     school, bullets started flying and hitting the school.  I could hear the

 4     tiles on the roof breaking.  I hurried up.  I entered the school.  My

 5     neighbour was already there.  She arrived before me.  I told her to

 6     switch off the light because somebody was shooting.  I didn't know why.

 7     I didn't know who.  I really didn't.

 8        Q.   So did she do that?

 9        A.   Yes, she did.  As a matter of fact, I switched off the light

10     although I told her to do it.  As I entered through the door, I switched

11     off the light.

12        Q.   How long did you stay there while the shooting was going on?

13        A.   I suppose I stayed there some ten minutes.  I couldn't leave the

14     school because bullets were fired towards the school, towards the roof of

15     the school.  And then I left the school.  My cousin lived some 30 or 40

16     metres away from the school.  I went to see him and to tell him that

17     something was going on, that there were shots from all over the place,

18     and he was taken by surprise.  He left his house.  He got out.  And he

19     went -- I don't know where he went.  And then I returned to the school

20     somehow.  We didn't dare switch on the light.  But the light was no

21     longer necessary because it was already daylight.

22        Q.   What's the name of your cousin?

23        A.   Milisav Ilic.  He got killed on that day.  He went to a place not

24     far from the school to save Cvetjko Lukic who had been seriously injured.

25     He wanted to carry him to the Drina to Ljubovija where he would be safe

Page 35455

 1     and he was killed on the boat.

 2        Q.   Were there any locals or the troops or the Serbian police in the

 3     village on that morning?

 4        A.   No.  There were just locals.  And by the time those locals got to

 5     grips what -- with what was going on, before they could properly wake up,

 6     they were killed.

 7        Q.   Did you start going back to your house?

 8        A.   Yes.  I set out to my house to see what was going on because I

 9     couldn't learn anything from anybody.  I saw houses ablaze.  I saw smoke.

10     I followed the canal.  On the left-hand side of the school, there was a

11     clear -- a clearing, so I could go through there.  The asphalt road is

12     somewhat higher, so I crawled and I arrived at a heap of blocks below a

13     house.  I stayed there a little.  And then on the left-hand side, I saw

14     that Nikola Petrovic's house was ablaze.

15        Q.   Did you see any of the attackers at any point in time?

16        A.   Yes, I saw behind that pile of blocks, I peaked over, and then I

17     pulled back.  I didn't dare look anymore.  I could see three of them

18     standing at the corner of Nikola Petrovic's house.  One was on the left

19     side, the other was on the right side.  I don't know if they noticed me

20     or not, but because his house was perhaps about 200 metres away from the

21     pile of blocks where I was hiding, I was not able to recognise if it was

22     any of my Muslim neighbours.  I couldn't recognise them, but I did see

23     them.  I could see well that they had back-packs on their backs.  They

24     had some sort of ribbon, yellow perhaps, and the clothing.  But that day

25     it was so dark and there was a lot of fog so that had they been only 30

Page 35456

 1     metres in front of me, I would have been able to see if it was -- if it

 2     was anybody that I knew.

 3        Q.   At any point, did you manage to get through and reach your house?

 4        A.   No.  Because on the right-hand side, I could hear a man shouting.

 5     I recognised him.  For many years we had been at the local commune

 6     together when I was there.  I was there for 15 years.  I had been elected

 7     as a functionary of the women's association, the AFZ.  I recognised him,

 8     Hajrudin Afric.  He said, "Chetniks, surrender.  We will catch all of you

 9     alive."  I recognised his voice but he was in the woods, on the

10     right-hand side behind the school.

11        Q.   When you were leaving your house and going in the direction of

12     the school in order to distribute the food, who was left in your house?

13        A.   My husband was left behind, Radivoje.  My daughter Snezana.  My

14     daughters were sleeping when I left.

15        Q.   When did you manage to get back to your house then?

16        A.   I didn't manage to get back that day, but I was close by because

17     some two or three houses -- three houses in front of me -- my house were

18     burning.  I could see that the house of Radovan Vucetic was burning, the

19     house of Dragoljub Filipovic was burning.  Dragoljub was killed that day

20     as well.  His son Dragan was also killed that day.  Radovan Vucetic was

21     killed.  His son Milenko, who was 16 or 17, was also killed that day.  In

22     any event, he was underaged.  Their houses were burning.  It was some 30

23     metres next to my house.  I was behind the summer kitchen of Bozo

24     Todorovic.  I saw him dead on his terrace.  I was at that summer kitchen.

25     That's where I was hiding, but I couldn't reach my own house.  And from

Page 35457

 1     that place, I saw a man dead on the corner of my own house.  I didn't

 2     know who it was.  I couldn't recognise.  Then I saw something else.  I

 3     had an apple tree in front of my house.  There was a man lying there.  I

 4     recognised that it was my husband.  I could tell by his clothes.  He had

 5     a kind of yellowish jacket.  Actually, it was the olive-drab, the SNB

 6     colour.  I could recognise him.  I saw that he was killed.  I didn't know

 7     anything about the children.

 8        Q.   Can you please tell us when was the first time that you managed

 9     to enter your yard and get to your house?

10        A.   It was only the next day because they wouldn't let me.  They

11     turned me back.  A man called me, "Don't go there.  That's where the

12     Muslims were stationed, those attackers.  You mustn't go there."  And

13     since I was by myself, I went back some 20 metres, and then I reached

14     that man, and that was Srecko Mihajlovic.  He was sitting in the canal

15     underneath the plum tree.  I asked him about my family, my relatives, did

16     he know what happened to them, and he told me that all three of them were

17     killed, although I recognised my husband but I couldn't see my children.

18             Then there was some two or three men there, I can't remember who

19     they were.  I don't remember who they were to this day.  They turned me

20     back.  They told me, "You mustn't go there.  It's not safe."  They told

21     me to go to a house where I spent the whole night, and then the next day

22     help arrived.  I don't know who it was, what that was.  They took me to

23     my house at about 9.30.  That was the following day.  The 15th of

24     December.

25        Q.   Can you please just bear with us.  We don't want to upset you

Page 35458

 1     more than we have to.  But could you tell us, as briefly as possible,

 2     what you saw when you went back to your house.

 3        A.   I found my daughter, Snezana, lying next to the staircase on the

 4     floor.  Then when I entered the house, I found a large pool of blood.  I

 5     didn't know where my youngest daughter was, my daughter Gordana.  I

 6     walked around the house, and you can imagine how it was for me, what

 7     happened to me, and how I behaved.  I found her dead in the bathroom.

 8     She had bled to death because she didn't get any help.

 9        Q.   And were any buildings in your yard damaged or burned?

10        A.   My house was set on fire that day, but there was a woman there

11     who came to help my children.  She wasn't able to.  It wasn't possible

12     because the house was surrounded, but she managed to put out the fire so

13     that the children, my children wouldn't burn.  And then when we collected

14     the dead on the following day so that we could bury them on the 16th in

15     Bratunac, they returned again and torched everything.  So on the 16th,

16     everything was torched.  All that that was there of mine.  It was all

17     torched.

18        Q.   Could you please tell us where you buried your

19     son [as interpreted] and your two daughters then?

20        A.   At the Bratunac town cemetery.  We had to transport them all in

21     the boat, and then we went to Bratunac to the cemetery because there were

22     blocks, there were ambushes on all sides, and we couldn't go up or down

23     the street.

24        Q.   And I'm going to finish with this question.  Are you able to tell

25     the Trial Chamber how many inhabitants of your village were killed that

Page 35459

 1     day?

 2        A.   68 were killed that day.  Among those 68 people, there were nine

 3     women -- actually, ten.  The tenth one is -- her whereabouts are still

 4     unknown.  That was Bozana Ostojic.  She was perhaps 70 years old.  She

 5     didn't have children.  One of her brothers was killed.  One of her

 6     brothers died.  One of her cousins was killed.  Another one died.  All in

 7     the war.  So there's nobody to actually look for her.  She was never

 8     found and we don't know what happened to her.  She was my sister-in-law,

 9     my husband's first cousin.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us where you lived in the months

11     and years after that, in view of the state of your house.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  One second.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a refugee and I lived --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you introduced your last question by

15     saying I'm going to finish with this question.  That was at the moment

16     when Ms. MacGregor was on her feet.  I didn't know what she wanted to

17     tell us, but when she heard that it would be your last question I think

18     she sat down again.

19             Could I inquire with you now, how many more questions do you

20     have?  Because we hear a lot of details, and I'm fully aware that -- how

21     it affected your personal life, but of course we also have to keep in

22     mind the relevance for this case, and sometimes events which have a huge

23     impact on personal lives are not --

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have four more question,

25     Your Honour.

Page 35460

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             When Mr. Stojanovic put a question to the witness, he asked about

 4     her -- it was either a mistranslation or mistake on his part.  He asked

 5     about her son.  I think he probably meant to refer to her husband, so I

 6     just wanted to correct the record.  That was at -- on page 37.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  37 ...

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Line 8, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stojanovic, the question was translated --

10     it was interpreted by us as:  "Could you please tell us where you buried

11     your son and your two daughters."  Is that what you intended to ask?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  If I said

13     "son," then I made an error.  But I think that I said something

14     different.  I can clear that up with the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do it immediately.

16             When you told us that members of your family were buried at the

17     Bratunac town cemetery, did you refer to your two daughters and your

18     husband?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   My question to you before this intervention was where did you

23     live in the months and years that ensued in view of the state of your

24     houses and your household?

25        A.   I lived in Bratunac in an apartment - I don't know whose

Page 35461

 1     apartment it was - until 1997, and since I wasn't able to return earlier

 2     because everything had been burned, I waited until everything was rebuilt

 3     so that I could go and live there.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell us how are you living now and who are you

 5     living with?

 6        A.   I live alone.  I live alone.  As they say, like a tree with no

 7     branches.  That's what my life is like today.

 8        Q.   Can you please tell me your closest relatives who were -- and the

 9     people who were killed that day, how did they comment that attack by the

10     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   From what I could hear from my relatives, my neighbours whose

12     son, brother, father, sister, were killed, that out of outrage, they were

13     outraged, I don't know why this place was attacked when our neighbours,

14     our people, my family, nobody ever ventured into those other villages.

15             In 1992, as far as I can remember, and judging by the stories

16     that we heard, 40 villages were emptied in the Bratunac and Srebrenica

17     municipalities.  They killed what they could.  People who managed to

18     escape, escaped.  They spent some time with us for a while, men, women,

19     until they could manage to find another place, go and stay with their

20     families.  I had family in Spati [phoen] in Zaluzje.  I had family in

21     Brezani.  I had a very large family on my mother's side, but all of those

22     villages were wiped out in 1992.

23        Q.   And I'm going to finish with this question.  How do you view your

24     neighbours, your Muslim neighbours, today, the people who are living in

25     your immediate neighbourhood?  What is your personal attitude towards all

Page 35462

 1     these things?

 2        A.   What is my attitude?  What they did to me, I would have never

 3     done that to them, and I never could imagine that they could do something

 4     like that to me.  They knew me well.  They knew that there were no

 5     soldiers at my place, that I had daughters.  I don't know why this

 6     happened, what the reason was.  I can never forget it.  I don't know if I

 7     can or cannot forgive them.  I'm still thinking about that.

 8        Q.   Mrs. Slavka, thank you very much for your efforts.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And thank you, Your Honours, for

10     the time we have been allotted.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             One final matter, Mr. Stojanovic, Slavka, is that short for the

13     official first name or is it the official first name of the witness, to

14     the extent you are aware of?

15             Is that Slavka your official name or is that a short version of

16     your ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my full name.  Slavka.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Ms. MacGregor, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Matic, you'll now be cross-examined by

22     Ms. MacGregor.  You'll find Ms. MacGregor to your right, and

23     Ms. MacGregor is counsel for the Prosecution.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

Page 35463

 1        Q.   Good morning, Madam Matic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   I have a couple of general questions about the Bratunac

 4     municipality.

 5             If you know, before the war started, the majority of the people

 6     in Bratunac municipality were Muslim; is that right?

 7        A.   I really couldn't answer that.  I never dealt much in politics.

 8     I didn't know what the figures were.  I really couldn't say.  Perhaps

 9     it's true.  I don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- unless it is a useful introduction to your

13     follow-up questions, typically a matter to be agreed upon by the parties.

14     We have the 1991 census which would most likely will give an answer to

15     that question.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have one question further on that that's not

18     addressed by the census.

19        Q.   And it's more particular, Madam Matic, to the hamlets directly

20     around Bjelovac.  Is it correct that the hamlets of Pirici and

21     Skela [phoen] were predominantly Muslim?

22        A.   Yes.  Pirici, Goradze, and Poloznik.  Those were purely Muslim

23     villages.  It's a bit further away from me.

24        Q.   And moving on to the events in December 1992 that you've been

25     discussing, you've described a guard in your village today during your

Page 35464

 1     testimony.  Did the members of those guards wear civilian clothes or

 2     uniforms?

 3        A.   Well, let me tell you, sometime in the month of June, some had

 4     uniforms, but most wore civilian clothes.  Some men did have camouflage

 5     uniforms.  We didn't.  We were villagers.  We had village guards.  We

 6     didn't have troops.  There were few men who had camouflage uniforms.

 7     Perhaps the younger ones.  The older ones, like my husband and others,

 8     wore their civilian clothes.

 9        Q.   And is it correct that if those individuals had their own

10     weapons, say, a hunting rifle or something like that, that they would use

11     those weapons when they were guarding the village?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, did your daughters participate in the village guard?

14        A.   No, never.

15        Q.   And do you know, on the day of the attack, on 14 December, 1992,

16     did the village guard fight back against the Muslims?

17        A.   Well, yes.  The village came under attack.  If there had been no

18     resistance, perhaps they would have killed everybody.  They killed a lot

19     of people.  Minors, women, they killed, for example --

20        Q.   Madam --

21        A.   -- nine women in my village on that day.  And then on the 28th of

22     June in Loznica, Jela Stojanovic was killed and Verica Filipovic.  She

23     was also a minor.  And perhaps nine more were killed.

24        Q.   Madam, if I can ask you to just listen to the questions I'm

25     asking and try to focus your answers to those questions, and then

Page 35465

 1     hopefully we can be done quite soon.

 2        A.   Very well.

 3        Q.   Now, is it correct on the day, on 14 December, 1992, at some

 4     point during that day you sought shelter in an APC; is that right?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   When I say "APC," I'm referring to a vehicle.  Did you get into a

 7     vehicle on that day?

 8        A.   No.  I don't remember.  There weren't any.

 9        Q.   Today you testified that 68 individuals were killed during the

10     fighting in Bjelovac in December 1994.  Now, do you know of those 68

11     people how many of the Serb victims of -- how many of these people were

12     soldiers and how many were civilians?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 43, line 24,

15     I'm not sure about the date as recorded.  What the witness heard in the

16     interpretation was what is recorded on the transcript, which I'm afraid

17     can cause some confusion.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please, apparently there may be a problem,

19     but could you also keep in mind the reference to the 68 is found in

20     page 37, line 17, and does not read exactly as you put it to the witness.

21     Could you please keep that in mind as well if you, again, put a question

22     about the 68 to the witness.  Especially what occurs after:  "During..."

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Madam, according to your testimony, 68 people were killed in

25     Bjelovac on 14th of December, 1994 -- excuse me, 1992.  Now, do you know

Page 35466

 1     of those 68 people how many were soldiers and how many were civilians?

 2        A.   There were more civilians than soldiers and those who had been

 3     mobilised were the local youth; for example, Mirko Petrovic, and then

 4     Damjanovic - what's his face? - I forgot his name.  They were killed.

 5     Dragan Filipovic.  Younger people.  I suppose that they were soldiers.

 6     Probably they had been mobilised.  And there were others whose names I

 7     can't remember, but most were civilians.  The elderly, women, and even

 8     the men; for example, Ljubisav Nedeljkovic, he was over 60 years old.

 9     Desimir Matovic was also around 60.  They were all around 50 or 60 years

10     of age.  And then there was this guy Prodanovic --

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please see 65 ter 4415.

12        Q.   And, madam, on your screen I know that you won't necessarily be

13     able to see it, but what I'm showing to the Chamber is a report that's

14     written by the Bratunac Brigade.

15        A.   I can't see a thing.

16        Q.   I understand, and I'm going to read to you from this document.

17     What I -- I want to describe what it is to you.  It's a report that the

18     military make.  It's a report specifically from the Bratunac Brigade, and

19     it gives a history of how the brigade was formed and what fighting it was

20     involved in.

21             So I want to read to you from this report briefly because the

22     report speaks specifically about the fighting on the 14th of December,

23     1992, in your village.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, the document apparently starts with

25     D-10.  That doesn't -- is not in the same script.  Could you explain to

Page 35467

 1     us what exactly we're looking at apart from, of course, telling the

 2     witness, but ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see a thing.  What do you

 4     want me to do?  I don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Everything will be explained to you, Witness.  If

 6     you wait for a second, I had a small question for the -- for

 7     Ms. MacGregor, and we'll deal with that first, and then just bear with us

 8     for a moment.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'm not sure I'm understanding your question.  If

10     you want to hear more about what larger document this is part of?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know whether -- first of all, I do not

12     know whether it's part of a larger document.  What I do know is that I

13     see a document in Cyrillic script with a -- in a totally different

14     typewriting D-10 on top of it.  I don't see any specific cover page with

15     dates, et cetera, so I'm wondering what I'm looking at at this moment.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  What I can tell you is that this is how the

17     document appeared, it seems, when the -- when OTP seized it.  It's a

18     document that has actually been referred to in testimony here before

19     Your Honours, although not admitted into evidence.  I can get back to you

20     with a bit more detail at a later time if you want.  I won't be tendering

21     this into evidence as well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed for the time being.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Madam Matic, I'm going to go -- if we can please go to page 11 in

25     the English and on the Cyrillic, it's in page 10.  And it's about halfway

Page 35468

 1     down that I'll start reading.  In the paragraph that begins:

 2             "On 14 December 1992, the Muslims attacked the villages of

 3     Sikiric, Loznica, Biljaca, Bjelovac, and Voljavica on the left flank.

 4     The villages suffered huge material," and I presume there's a word

 5     missing there, "the villages suffered huge material and many people were

 6     killed.  55 soldiers and 7 civilians were killed and many were wounded in

 7     the fighting with the units of Naser Oric.  All villages were torched and

 8     the property destroyed."

 9             Madam, have you heard what I've just read to you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, this document has 55 soldiers and seven civilians killed

12     during the fighting, which is 63 people.  Now, according to the document

13     made by the military, 55 of those Serbs --

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   55 of those Serbs that died in the fighting were soldiers.  Now,

16     do you think that's correct?

17        A.   There were soldiers.  I know that there were.  But there were

18     more civilian casualties.  I don't know what they wrote about the

19     incident, how they reported about it, but as far as I know, and as much

20     as I know about my village, I -- I know who -- who was killed on that

21     day.  And there were a lot of elderly and women among them.  There were

22     even woman who were injured who succumbed one or two years later and died

23     of the -- of those wounds.  I don't know.  And now as to how reports were

24     drafted, what was written after that, I don't know.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If I can next have --

Page 35469

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "the military."  Could you at least tell us

 2     what military we are talking about?  Is it the British Army or ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The locals who were there who had

 4     been mobilised.  If they were of age.  We did not have any other troops.

 5     We didn't have any such thing.  Those people were just there and if -- if

 6     anybody thought of them as troops.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that last question I put to Ms. MacGregor,

 8     and I'm still waiting for at least some information about that.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, my question was about members of

10     the -- of the Serb military.  My question to the witness.  And --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my question to you was when you said this

12     is a military report, from what military?  As far as you know.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  As far as I know, it's from the Bratunac Brigade

14     of the VRS.  This document was used by Ms. Melikian and she also gave to

15     Your Honours some information about the background of this document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I must say I don't have a clear recollection of

17     that, I must admit.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  It was on 30 April of this year, 2015, with

19     Witness Ratko Nikolic.  It was seized in a search executed by the ICTY in

20     February 1995 from the Bratunac Brigade.

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's one document, 22 pages?

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  The full document -- I'm sorry, can you please

24     repeat your question, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's one document or whether it's several

Page 35470

 1     documents and is all the 22 pages are one document?

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  I would have to spend more time looking into

 3     this.  But as I understand, what we've uploaded is a portion of the

 4     document and not the entire collection that was seized.  But again, I can

 5     get back to you about that.  But not at this moment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you would then also explain to us where

 7     we find that it's a document which is coming from the Bratunac Brigade,

 8     that would be appreciated.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             If I can please have 65 ter -- excuse me for one moment.  04254.

12        Q.   Madam, I'm asking the court usher to show to the Chamber another

13     document, and I know you will probably also have trouble seeing it, so

14     it's actually a document that you were shown when you testified here in

15     the Naser Oric trial.  And we're just waiting for it to come up to the

16     screen.  But as we wait, I'll tell you that this is a list that's

17     entitled: "List of Soldiers of 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade Killed

18     Between 18 April 1992 and 25 September 1995."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, before you put questions to the

20     witness, could you tell us how much more time you would need, because

21     we're -- I'm looking at the clock at this moment and it's approximately

22     time for a break.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is my final document about which --

24     [Overlapping speakers].

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the final document, then I'll suggest that

Page 35471

 1     we'll wait until we have concluded this portion and then take the break.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, if we can please turn to page 3 in the B/C/S and 4 in the

 5     English, we're going to look at number 260 on this list.  And, Madam, I

 6     believe you had trouble seeing it, but I also think you were shown this

 7     before in the Oric case --

 8        A.   I can't read.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to read.  Ms. MacGregor will explain

11     exactly what it is that is before you, and anything you're invited to

12     comment upon, she'll read that literally.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

14        Q.   I will read entry number 260.  The name that's listed is Matic,

15     son of Ilija, Radivoje.  The unit listed is --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   -- 3rd Infantry Battalion.  The date of birth, 1937.  The address

18     listed is Bjelovac.  Place of death is Bjelovac.  The date of death,

19     14 December 1992.  And under remarks, it says:  "In action (defence)."

20             Is that your husband whose information I've just read to you?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please turn to 6 in e-court in both

23     versions.

24        Q.   I'm going to read to you, Madam, entries 415 and 416.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  This may be the wrong English page unless -- it

Page 35472

 1     should be page 7 then.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Starting with line 415, the name is Matic, Radivoje,

 3     Gordana.  The unit is the letters OT.  The date of birth is 1967.  The

 4     address is Bjelovac.  The place of death is Bjelovac.  The date of death

 5     is 14 December 1992.  And under remarks it lists:  "In action (defence)."

 6             And is that your daughter Gordana?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And entry number 416 is the same as the entry for Gordana, with

 9     just three differences:  The name is Matic, daughter of Radivoje, well,

10     actually, it says Radivoje, Snezana, and the date of birth listed for her

11     is 1965.

12             Now, is that your daughter Snezana?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Now, this document lists that your husband and your daughters

15     were killed in action, and it lists them on a list of members of the

16     Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.  Were you aware that your husband and

17     daughters were members of that brigade when they died?

18        A.   No.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I tender this as an exhibit.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My husband, I never asked him, and

21     I suppose so.  I never knew that my daughter had been mobilised or what.

22     I really didn't know until I came here in 2004 and when that was shown to

23     me.  I was against that.  I wanted to move them away.  Who mobilised them

24     and how they accepted that?  They did not die in combat.  They died at

25     home.  They didn't have even a stick in their hands let alone something

Page 35473

 1     else that they could defend themselves with.  What could they have

 2     defended themselves with?  I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7383, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  And the Prosecution has no further

 7     questions.  I can provide a bit more information about the Bratunac

 8     Brigade documents now or I can wait.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, let's firstly -- my first question to you,

10     Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions in re-examination for the

11     witness?  And, if so, we'll wait until after the break.  But if you don't

12     have any ...

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I won't have any.

14     But I would like to clarify with the OTP the abbreviation OT.  What is

15     the position of the Prosecutor on that, based on the document they have

16     just tendered into evidence?  I would like to learn from them about their

17     understanding of the nature of that unit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we cannot agree on that, I

20     will have a couple of questions for the witness after the break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, I'm wondering where the

22     witness says that she was not aware of her family members being members

23     of the armed forces whether the witness could help us out.  But let's

24     first hear from Ms. MacGregor whether she -- how she understands the

25     abbreviation OT in the document, which was just admitted into evidence.

Page 35474

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             I've had some discussions with members of the CLSS and I have a

 3     couple ideas, but I'm not in a position to say the final position of the

 4     Prosecution.  I'm happy to talk to the Defence at the break.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then, of course, if the witness has been

 6     excused, then we can't ask her.

 7             Now, Mr. Stojanovic, is there any reason why you think that this

 8     witness could help us out in view of the previous answers she gave about

 9     her family members?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I spoke with the

11     witness about that, and I don't think that she can be of any assistance

12     to us.  She told us what she knew and she gave us the full extent of her

13     knowledge, so I don't think it would be necessary to keep her to stay

14     after the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That means, if you say I have a few more questions,

16     it's rather questions for Ms. MacGregor than for the witness.

17             In view of that, no further questions in re-examination,

18     Mr. Stojanovic?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that the OT matter remains unresolved at

21     this moment.

22             Madam Matic, this concludes your evidence in this Court, and I'd

23     like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague.  It may

24     not have been easy for you to be taken back to days that were certainly

25     difficult, very difficult, in your life.  I wish you a safe return home

Page 35475

 1     again and thank you again for having answered all the questions that were

 2     put to you.

 3             You may now follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at half past

 7     midday.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the -- yes, perhaps we wait for one second,

11     Mr. Usher.

12             Ms. MacGregor, you wanted to give us a bit of background

13     information about that one document which you did not tender.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  I also have information about the OT debate.  So

15     I'll start with the simpler matter.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is the document number P7383 and the

18     document that's 65 ter 04415.  So 04415 is the Bratunac Brigade history

19     document that we discussed.  P7383 is the list of deaths that was entered

20     into evidence.  Both of these documents were seized by the OTP in a

21     search in February 1998, and they were seized from the Bratunac Brigade.

22     So that's the information about those two documents.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then OT stands in your view for?

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is a bit more complicated.  So to assist the

25     Chamber, if I can ask to put on the screen, 65 ter 32581.  And,

Page 35476

 1     Your Honours, this is a document that the Prosecution decided not to use

 2     with the witness but it was on the exhibit list, and it's -- I'm waiting

 3     for it to come up.  It's a document dated October 1992, list of persons

 4     from military post 2465/5, paid for official troop trip and pay for

 5     October 1992.  It's a list of persons to whom payments were made.

 6             If you go to page 7, and we can actually just look at the B/C/S

 7     because it's a list and because we're talking about the initials and they

 8     refer to B/C/S language.  At the top of this list, we see the words

 9     "Oklopno Mehaniz Jedinica", which our translation is "armoured mechanized

10     unit," obviously with the second word abbreviated.  And if you look on

11     this list at numbers 233 and 234, you see the names of Madam Matic's

12     daughters, who we discussed during her testimony.  Additionally, there

13     are five other individuals on this list that we're looking at who are

14     also listed on the list of dead individuals in Exhibit P7383 who also

15     have the initial OT next to their name.

16             So the conclusion of the Prosecution is that O stands for

17     "Oklopno."  I don't know what word T stands for, but our understanding is

18     that this is a reference to the armoured mechanized unit that the two

19     sisters and these other five individuals belonged to.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic -- first of all, this, of course, is

21     not in evidence.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  Correct, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further comments on the OT issue?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have also

25     analysed this abbreviation while I was preparing for the witness's

Page 35477

 1     testimony, also bearing in mind the line of questions that the witness

 2     had during the cross-examination in the Oric case.  I couldn't hear from

 3     her anything that could help me to identify and explain the abbreviation

 4     OT.  That's why I said that she couldn't be of any assistance to us.

 5             It is our position that the abbreviation for the anti-armour

 6     mechanical unit in military terms cannot be OT.  However, as for the real

 7     meaning of the abbreviation OT, we are not in a position to answer to

 8     that question right now.  We shall try and see if we can clarify this

 9     with some of the upcoming issues, and then we will take it up with OTP

10     and see whether they can stipulate anything with regard to that

11     abbreviation and all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

13             Do the parties agree that OT refers to a unit within that brigade

14     or is there even no agreement on that?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we will continue to look to try to

16     sort this out.  But it -- it -- the Prosecution is really not attempting

17     to prove whether or not these women are in the -- in the unit or not, but

18     we did want you to see that evidence so that this could be seen in

19     context.  It's not an issue that the Prosecution, as you know, feels it

20     needs to prove, but we did want to give you the context.  And as we can

21     answer your questions, we will, and we'll continue to look into it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll hear further from the parties in the

23     future.

24             Could the next witness be escorted in the courtroom, unless,

25     Ms. MacGregor, you would like to raise any matter?

Page 35478

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  I was just going to ask if I may have your

 2     permission to depart.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The usher will open the door anyhow, so you can use

 4     that opportunity to leave this courtroom.

 5             You're excused, Ms. MacGregor.

 6             Next witness to be called would be Mr. Radulj?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Radulj.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

12     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN RADULJ

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Radulj.

18             You'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, and you'll find him to your left, is

21     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Radulj.

Page 35479

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   According to our procedure, I would kindly ask you to slowly tell

 3     us your name for the record.

 4        A.   Slobodan Radulj.

 5        Q.   Mr. Radulj, could you give us the date and place of your birth.

 6        A.   17 July, 1956.  I was born in Verici, in Banja Luka municipality.

 7        Q.   Where do you currently reside, Mr. Radulj?

 8        A.   I reside in Banja Luka.

 9        Q.   What is your occupation at the moment and what is your position?

10        A.   I am the ombudsman of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber something about your

12     education.

13        A.   I completed the elementary school in the place where I was born.

14     I attended the secondary school in Banja Luka.  I graduated from the

15     school of law in Banja Luka in 1978.  After that, I went to Novi Sad, and

16     I took my bar exam there in 1991.  In 2004, I completed the specialist

17     post-graduate studies about organised crime and fight against terror.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   And then in 2007, I obtained my masters degree in Belgrade.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you to tell us something about

21     your professional career from the moment when you obtained your first law

22     degree until today.

23        A.   I got my first job in 1978 at the Ljubija-Prijedor iron-ore mine

24     because I had a study grant from that company.

25        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how long did you stay with that

Page 35480

 1     company?

 2        A.   I worked as a lawyer from 1978 to September 1991 in that company.

 3     I was the company lawyer.

 4        Q.   And after that, in September 1991, what happened?

 5        A.   In September 1991, I got call-up papers and I was mobilised into

 6     the rocket unit of the then-JNA.

 7        Q.   Where was that unit stationed?

 8        A.   That unit arrived from Banja Luka in the territory of today's

 9     Croatia.  It was stationed in the territory covered by Dvor na Uni,

10     Glina, and Petrinja.  To be more precise, the name of that area is

11     Banija.

12        Q.   At that moment, in September 1991, did you have any military

13     education?  Did you have a military rank?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let's stop there.  Let's stop talking about your professional

16     career.  Tell us about your military education and also tell us where did

17     you serve in the army?

18        A.   I served in Bileca at the school of reserve officers there.  I

19     became a second lieutenant after the completion of that education.  At

20     the moment when I was mobilised, I was a reserve captain, a reserve

21     infantry captain.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How long did your military engagement last, in that

23     unit?

24        A.   I was in Croatia until the 11th of April, 1992; and after that,

25     until the 15th of May, 1992, I was in Bosnia and Herzegovina, i.e., in

Page 35481

 1     Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber which unit you belonged

 3     to until the 15th of May, 1992 in Republika Srpska?

 4        A.   It was the same rocket brigade, which had returned from Croatia

 5     to the Celinac-Prnjavor sector.

 6        Q.   Could you please repeat -- ah okay.  You don't need to.  I think

 7     it's been recorded.  What I want to ask you is this:  How long were you

 8     engaged in this unit?

 9        A.   I already said that.  I was there until the 15th of May, 1992.

10        Q.   After that, what new duties did you take up?

11        A.   While I was at the unit, I was summoned to Prijedor to take over

12     the duties of the municipal ombudsman.

13        Q.   And when did you take up those duties?

14        A.   I took up those duties on the 20th of May, 1992.

15        Q.   And how long did you stay at that post?

16        A.   I stayed at that post until the 20th of October, 1993.

17        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where you went after the

18     20th of October, 1993.

19        A.   From the 20th of October, 1993, I was appointed Deputy Military

20     Prosecutor for the area of responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Krajina

21     Corps in Banja Luka.

22        Q.   And how long did you stay at that post?

23        A.   I stayed at the post of deputy until the 1st of August, 1997, and

24     then after that, I was appointed as prosecutor of the 1st Krajina Corps.

25        Q.   How long did you stay at that post?

Page 35482

 1        A.   I was there until the 1st of July, 2000, which was the day when

 2     the military judicial system was abolished in the whole of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us where you went from there?  What was

 5     your job from then until today?

 6        A.   After the year 2000, I started working as an advisor at the

 7     Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That was until 2006.  And then

 8     after that, in 2007 until now, I am the attorney general of

 9     Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to draw your attention to a

11     particular time-period that you talked about as the time when you worked

12     as an attorney at the iron-ore mine in Ljubija.  For those of us who are

13     not from that area, could you please tell us where the town of Ljubija is

14     located?

15        A.   The iron-ore company at that time was made up of three mines.

16     One of them was Ljubija.  That would be the central mining area.  And

17     then that is 12 kilometres south of Prijedor.  The second mine is called

18     Istocna Rudista in Tomasica, and that is south-east of Prijedor, some 20

19     kilometres away.  And the third mining sector is Omarska and that is 20

20     kilometres to the west.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us what the ethnic composition

22     of the staff of the company where you worked was up until the beginning

23     of the war, the company where you worked as an attorney?

24        A.   The company numbered about 5.000 employees, and they were from

25     among all ethnic groups and ethnic minorities.  In electing the

Page 35483

 1     management organs, the key system was always taken into account, meaning

 2     that certain posts -- meaning that all ethnic groups were equally

 3     represented in all the posts.  The management posts.  The situation was

 4     more than good.  The company was operating very well, and the salaries

 5     were good.  It was a pleasure to work there.

 6        Q.   When you say that the situation was good, I wanted to ask you

 7     more specifically about the interethnic relations in your company.

 8        A.   Before the multi-party elections, they were good.

 9        Q.   And what happened after the multi-party elections in Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina?

11        A.   After the multi-party elections, the SDA won in the Prijedor

12     municipality, that was the Muslim option, and that's when changes

13     occurred.  There was a deterioration in the political and the interethnic

14     situation.  There was more and more distrust among the inhabitants as

15     well.  Specifically, the Serb citizens were more disturbed.  I

16     specifically had a lot of unpleasantness because of that because, in my

17     view, the main differences were those who were in favour of the survival

18     of Yugoslavia and those who were in favour of dismantling it.

19        Q.   I'm going to put some questions to you later on about that, so we

20     need to go step by step.  That's what the system is here.

21             When you say that people had a different attitude towards the

22     Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, could you please tell the Trial Chamber

23     what you personally observed?  You personally.

24        A.   I am just going to give two or three examples.  One of them is

25     the case of my colleague, an economist by profession, Zoran Pusac, who

Page 35484

 1     brought a report to the collegium.  The director was Ibro Paunovic.  The

 2     report was written in the Cyrillic script.  And when the director saw the

 3     Cyrillic script, he ripped up the report as a gesture and he said:  "I do

 4     not want to see Cyrillic in this company anymore."

 5             The second case was when I received a warning from colleagues

 6     about when I brought in the morning press in the morning that I was --

 7     that I should hide it.  I asked why, and they told me that the porters

 8     had been given an assignment to note down who was bringing in what kind

 9     of newspapers in the morning.  Cyrillic or the Belgrade newspapers were

10     undesirable, and I actually happened to read the Belgrade press.

11             I still have a lot of Muslim friends to this day, and once when

12     we were just having drinks, one of them who is a good friend of mine said

13     this:  "Yugoslavia is no more.  Serbs should go to Serbia, Croats should

14     go to Croatia, Bosnia is ours."

15             If I may add something else too.  When I talked about nice times

16     in Prijedor or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the formula that was in force

17     then was that Bosnia and Herzegovina was Muslim, Serb, and Croat; namely,

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina was neither Serb nor Muslim nor Croat.  That

19     formula could apply for as long as Yugoslavia existed.  The minute that

20     Yugoslavia disappeared, that formula was no longer valid, and that is

21     when these conflicts broke out.

22        Q.   I just want to ask you to give us a time context for these three

23     or four specific examples that you mentioned.  When did they take place?

24        A.   This already started in the late 1990s, in the course of 1991 and

25     in early 1992.  As time went by, this intolerance among the peoples

Page 35485

 1     became more and more pronounced.  I can even say that the Serbian people

 2     were upset because of the historic -- because of past history.

 3        Q.   And what do you mean when you say "past history"?

 4        A.   The historic memory whereby Kozara is close.  Mount Kozara is in

 5     the Prijedor area, and there is Jasenovac camp also in that area, meaning

 6     that only 40 years before that horrific crimes were committed against the

 7     Serbian people.  So that in May and June of 1942, 70.000 men, women, and

 8     children died in that area.  Out of that, 40.000 were children under --

 9     under 14.  When I was --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  20.000, interpreter's correction.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was small, in one day, 520

12     civilians were killed alone.  So --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Could you please slow down a little bit here.  That's being

15     suggested.  I'm sorry, you can continue now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Stojanovic, you are aware

17     that this is evidence which is repeated so many times.  You're encouraged

18     to avoid repetitious evidence, and it also seems that -- that a lot of

19     Serbs were suffering heavily during the Second World War is not something

20     which is in dispute, is there?

21             MR. TRALDI:  No, it's not, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for the

24     suggestion, Your Honours.

25        Q.   I think that this is the first time that this concrete

Page 35486

 1     information has been stated.  I am just going to ask to you finish your

 2     sentence and then I will move to the next question.

 3             So we interrupted you at the point in time when you were talking

 4     about numbers that refer to your own village.

 5        A.   What I said was that because of fear that history will repeat

 6     itself and those crimes, that's what -- what the reason was for their

 7     concern.

 8        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And you personally, did you have any

 9     experiences in your company immediately before the war broke out that

10     indicated a different approach and attitude towards the then-Yugoslav

11     People's Army?

12        A.   Well, the approach was different.  Since I need to stick to the

13     facts, I recall that one tank brigade from Serbia came to Prijedor and

14     that the mayor of Prijedor stood in front of the tanks at the time.  I

15     can't remember his name.  He was a Muslim.  And then on the other hand,

16     the people allowed the Serbian army to come to Prijedor and they were

17     giving them food and water, which means that the -- that already at that

18     time the JNA was not permitted to pass through Prijedor.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to direct your attention to the

20     period when you started your duties as attorney general of the Prijedor

21     municipality, and I would like to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber

22     briefly what your duties were, what that involved, the job of attorney

23     general at the municipal authority level.

24        A.   The position of attorney general is something that I think exists

25     in all countries.  In the briefest possible way, you could say that that

Page 35487

 1     is an attorney of the state institutions.  These were institutions that

 2     are financed from the budget, municipal organs, and our job was to make

 3     sure that laws and regulations were respected.  Its role was to draw

 4     attention and make sure that the authorities did not violate laws, and

 5     they also took care of citizens' rights.

 6        Q.   And were you carrying out those duties as a management-level

 7     official?  Did you have any assistants to help you in your job?

 8        A.   I worked alone.  I was the only one at that post, and I just had

 9     a technical secretary.  Even before me, my colleague, my predecessor

10     worked by himself.  He was the only -- or me, too, the only professional

11     official in that post.

12        Q.   When you were doing your job, was it your duty to attend meetings

13     of the local assembly or of the Executive Board?

14        A.   No, I was not obliged to attend those meetings, but I was obliged

15     at the request of the president to come to the meetings where items were

16     being dealt with that had to do with my work.

17        Q.   And were you aware of the work of the Crisis Staff in the

18     Prijedor municipality at any point in time while you were attorney

19     general?

20        A.   I know that there was a Crisis Staff.  It was formed while I was

21     still in the unit, and I was not a member of the Crisis Staff so that I

22     didn't have any influence on its work, and I did not participate in any

23     of the duties of the Crisis Staff because the judiciary was separate from

24     the rest of the organs of power.

25        Q.   And what were the most frequent problems that you encountered as

Page 35488

 1     the public attorney, the attorney general, up until the time you became

 2     Deputy Military Prosecutor?

 3        A.   What the biggest problem was, was to set up organs of power of

 4     any sort.  What happened was that state authorities disappeared.  The

 5     state of Yugoslavia disappeared, as well as the organs of power of the

 6     former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  New organs of power had to be

 7     created.  They were just emerging so that there was a vacuum which seemed

 8     to have been filled with unsavory figures, criminals, crooks thinking

 9     that in that lawless period you could do anything you wanted.  So in this

10     vacuum all the crimes occurred and all the things that an ordinary man

11     would find difficult to accept, all these things that people were willing

12     to do.

13        Q.   While you worked in Prijedor municipality as its attorney

14     general, did you have to bear any pressure with regard to your duty and

15     decisions?

16        A.   No, there were no pressures to bear.  I was an independent body,

17     as it were, so I was the one who issued enactments and documents to

18     demand solutions to current issue, especially property issues.  I would

19     say in those documents that that was private property, and in a

20     capitalist society it was inviolable.  So even if somebody had to abandon

21     Prijedor due to war, nobody had the right to violate their property.

22     Everybody left Prijedor during the war - Bosniaks, Serb, Croats and

23     Yugoslavs - but their property remained unprotected and that was the main

24     issue, the issue that was close to my heart.  I wanted that property to

25     be protected.

Page 35489

 1        Q.   You mentioned the term "abandoned property."  Could you please

 2     tell the Trial Chamber what was implied under the term "abandoned

 3     property" in Prijedor municipality?

 4        A.   Those were socially owned apartments primarily, and houses.

 5     There were already some small private companies and stores in Prijedor.

 6     All those assets that belonged to the citizens who had been forced to

 7     leave the town due to war.

 8        Q.   You observed that as an objective problem.  Did you inform

 9     companies, institutions, state organs about the problems that you

10     observed when it came to abandoned property?

11        A.   Yes, I did.  And I drafted several documents that I sent

12     primarily to all the institutions in the municipality.  I even asked that

13     a list be published in the local newspaper.  I attended sessions, and at

14     those sessions I demanded that laws be observed and that property of

15     others be protected and respected.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

17     call up 65 ter 1D05383.

18        Q.   Sir, we'll go back to page 1.  But before that, I would like us

19     to look at the last page in B/C/S and English versions of this document.

20     Just for a moment, let's focus on that.

21             Let me ask you:  At the end of the document, you can see the

22     abbreviation VD, municipal public legal officer, Slobodan Radulj, and a

23     signature.  Do you recognise this signature?

24        A.   Yes.  At that time, I was acting municipal legal officer and this

25     is my signature.

Page 35490

 1        Q.   And now let's go back to the first page of this document.  I'll

 2     have a few questions for you.

 3             This document bearing your signature was drafted on the 21st of

 4     September, 1992.  Below the date, you can see the words "enterprise or

 5     institution."

 6             What do these words stand for?  What do these words imply in this

 7     type of document?

 8        A.   This is a circular letter.  My clerk who worked with me would

 9     fill in the document by adding the name of the institution or company to

10     which the document was sent.  So instead of typing the entire document on

11     an old typewriter, we made a few copies and left blanks for the names of

12     the institutions.  This document was published in Kozarski Vjesnik

13     Newspaper so everybody could read this document, both citizens and the

14     institutions to which the document referred, and the document referred to

15     all those who were in any position of authority in the territory of

16     Prijedor municipality.

17        Q.   My question to you, sir, is this:  Can you personally tell us

18     today whether this document of yours, whether this letter of yours was

19     ever sent to the companies and institutions in the territory of Prijedor

20     municipality?

21        A.   Yes, yes, of course, and it was also published.  Everybody

22     received this document.  I don't know how many addresses were involved.

23     There must have been hundreds.

24        Q.   And now I'd like to you look at the second paragraph of this

25     document where you say:

Page 35491

 1             "In these conditions some individuals have found ways to take

 2     possession of certain property, especially socially-owned flats ... every

 3     day we see forcible break-ins and illegal occupation of socially-owned

 4     flats ... this has become a large-scale phenomenon."

 5             Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what do you mean when you

 6     say "socially-owned flats"?  What kind of property does this concern or

 7     what kind of ownership?

 8        A.   Socially-owned flats at that time were not private property.

 9     They did not belong to the tenant who occupied such an apartment.

10     Companies, institutions assigned apartments to their own employees and

11     workers for temporary or permanent occupation.

12             According to the then-prevalent laws, that right of occupation

13     could be lost on a condition that they occupied such an apartment for six

14     months without any justification, without the right of occupancy.  In

15     this document, I am warning everybody that this term of six months cannot

16     be applied during the war because their citizens left not of their own

17     will.  They would return and they would ask to be allowed to move back

18     into their apartments.

19             Let me tell you that at that moment I couldn't even dream that

20     there would be a Dayton Accord, but this letter is very much in the vain

21     of that accord because after the Dayton Accords were signed, everybody

22     was allowed to return to their former property.

23        Q.   Does this document discriminate along any lines against any of

24     the tenants in the socially-owned apartments, especially along ethnic

25     lines?

Page 35492

 1        A.   I believe that the text itself shows, that it is

 2     self-explanatory, and it is clear that it applies to all citizens

 3     irrespective of their ethnic affiliations.

 4        Q.   The essence of my question was this:  What was the attitude of

 5     the official authorities - and you were a member of those authorities at

 6     the time, obviously - about who could use and manage an apartment whose

 7     tenant had to leave the apartment due to war?  Whose apartment was that?

 8     Who had the right to occupy it and use it?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, the term official authorities could be

11     understood to apply to a variety of different institutions, some of which

12     the witness was a member of, some of which he testified he didn't know

13     very much about, so I'd just ask that that term be made a little bit more

14     specific.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to follow that

16     suggestion.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.  I'll see what I

18     can do.

19        Q.   First of all, and I apologise, Mr. Radulj, what was the position

20     of your office within the context of the question that I put to you?  Who

21     had the right to use those apartments that you described as abandoned

22     socially-owned apartments?  Who was supposed to dispose with them?

23        A.   Well, in order for me to answer that, I have to expand a little.

24     I already told that you companies were the owners of such apartments.

25     The municipality also had its own apartments.  So the owners had to make

Page 35493

 1     sure that the rights of previous tenants had to be respected, that such

 2     apartments could not be allocated permanently.  Some individuals forcibly

 3     entered such apartments.  Sometimes individuals even chased away their

 4     rightful occupants.  So the owners had the obligation to make sure that

 5     the previous tenants had their rights reinstated and that is the essence

 6     of this letter.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us look at page 3, paragraph 1 in the same

 8     document.  I believe that the same paragraph is found on the same page in

 9     the English version as well.

10             Just a moment, Mr. Radulj, we're waiting for the English version

11     to appear on the screen.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the previous

13     page in English.  Thank you.

14        Q.   In your letter, you go on to say:

15             "Until then everybody a who has anything to do with this problem

16     should bear in mind the following:

17             "1. All persons who have moved into flats without the requisite

18     decisions issued by the organs responsible for letting flats are," and

19     then highlighted or underscored or, rather, "... illegal occupants who

20     must be evicted in accordance with the Municipal Assembly's decision of

21     27 August 1992."

22             My question is this:  What you have written in this letter, is

23     this your position and your attitude as the attorney general; or rather

24     when you make a reference to the decision of the Municipal Assembly, are

25     you also relying on the position or the attitude of the highest

Page 35494

 1     authorities in the municipality?  Whose position is this?

 2        A.   I really can't remember the details.  This was a long time ago,

 3     but I believe that this was a decision made by the Municipal Assembly

 4     that all the illegal tenants should be evicted.  In practice, however,

 5     this never took off the ground.  However, I issued this document in order

 6     to encourage everybody involved to make sure that the decision was indeed

 7     carried out.  This is the essence of this letter.  The decision was not

 8     implemented to the extent necessary or possible.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at bullet point 4.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S we should move to the

11     following page and in the English --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we move to the next point,

13     it's about time for a break, otherwise the last session will be very,

14     very short.  Before moving, therefore, I would like to take the break

15     now.

16             Mr. Radulj, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see

17     you back after that break.  You may follow the usher.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

Page 35495

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Radulj, we left it off with bullet point 4 in this document.

 3     Let's go to the following page in B/C/S.  We are on the good page in

 4     English because we can see the first two lines of that bullet point but

 5     then we have to move on.  In this document in this bullet point you say:

 6             "Since the war is not yet over and people are still being wounded

 7     and killed, it should be realised that there will unfortunately be many

 8     more families of fallen warriors and disabled war veterans with no one to

 9     support them, and priority will have to be given to the solution of their

10     problem.  The above-mentioned decision of the Municipal Assembly places

11     this obligation squarely on the enterprises and institutions responsible

12     for the allocation of socially-owned flats."

13             What was your objective when you sent this document to all the

14     enterprises and institutions of Prijedor municipality?

15        A.   Primarily my objective was to make sure that law is observed,

16     that there was order, and that individuals who were not entitled to

17     certain benefits should not be allowed to take laws in their own hands.

18     That that job should be given to legal institutions and authorities.

19        Q.   Go ahead, finish your sentence.

20        A.   Let me share an example with you to illustrate the whole

21     situation.

22             As an attorney general, I got hold of a sales purchase agreement

23     of a small-sized company.  The seller, who was a Croatian lady,

24     Marija Popovic, and the name of her company was Hidroflex, had left

25     Prijedor as far as I knew.  The buyer, on the other hand, brought me that

Page 35496

 1     purchase agreement that I was supposed to certify in order for the

 2     contract to be registered.  I refused to certify the contract because I

 3     had my doubts about the whole deal.  And then I checked the signature of

 4     the seller.  I matched it against the signature that was on the company

 5     inception papers, and I checked the contract itself and I realised that

 6     it was a forgery.  The property that was left behind was placed at the

 7     disposal of the municipality temporarily until the moment the issue could

 8     be permanently resolved.  Not only did I not put my signature on the

 9     contract, but I also filed a claim with a court to make the contract null

10     and void.  As a result, I suffered threats from individuals who wanted to

11     abuse state institutions and get hold of valuable property in an illegal

12     way.

13             This is just to illustrate how I wanted to protect it, the assets

14     of everybody irrespective of their ethnic affiliation.

15        Q.   That person who presented to you as the buyer of the property

16     which was ownership of a Croatian from Prijedor, what was his ethnicity?

17        A.   He was a Serb.  Actually, they were two brothers who were Serbs.

18        Q.   During that year while you worked in the attorney general's

19     office, did you have any experiences with ethnic discrimination on behalf

20     of the authorities and the courts in Prijedor when it came to law

21     enforcement?

22        A.   My offices were in the building of the court and the prosecutor's

23     office.  I was a professional, and I was only governed by the law.

24     Throughout the -- the duration of my office, I did not allow any

25     discrimination.  Very often Bosniaks turned to me for advice or

Page 35497

 1     instructions that could help them, and I always obliged as much as I

 2     could and as much as I was allowed to do so within the purview of my

 3     duties.  I believe that the court in Prijedor also did not discriminate

 4     against anybody.  At least I have not experienced any such instances.

 5        Q.   And now let's go back to bullet point 4 that can you see in front

 6     of you and which is an integral part of your letter.

 7             At that time, did you personally know if MUP units or the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska units also had members of non-Serb origin?

 9        A.   Yes.  For example, my unit, which was a motorised company, when I

10     joined, it was a JNA unit.  In that unit, there was some ten Muslims,

11     about eight Croats, and other ethnic groups, including Albanians and

12     Yugoslavs.  I also know that in the two Prijedor brigades, there were

13     other ethnic groups.  There was even a company of Croats in a village

14     near Ljubija.  I can't remember the name of that village.  I heard

15     stories about that.  I can't remember if the name of that village was

16     Ravsko or something else.  In any case, it was a Croatian village.  Don't

17     hold me by that because I'm not sure.  I remember that information about

18     a purely Croatian company.

19        Q.   Within the context of your information, i.e., the circular letter

20     that you sent to various institutions, the families of such persons of

21     non-Serb origin, if they were members of the MUP or the Army of

22     Republika Srpska, and if they were injured or if they were killed, would

23     their families also fall within the category of the families of those who

24     had to be taken care of because their members had either been injured or

25     died in combat?

Page 35498

 1        A.   Of course.  There would have been no discrimination whatsoever.

 2     Of course.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask a few clarifying

 5     questions.

 6             You talked about your motorised company.  You said there were

 7     some ten Muslims and about eight Croats.  What was the total strength of

 8     that company?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were around 150 men in my

10     company.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You said when you joined that unit.  Did the

12     composition change after you had joined?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I joined the unit in late

14     September 1991.  Already at the beginning of 1992, the composition

15     changed.  A large number of Muslims and Croats left the unit.  At that

16     time, that was considered normal that everybody tended to move closer to

17     their own people.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Normal or not, that's not my -- I just wanted

19     to look at the facts.  So do I understand the ten -- let me just check

20     that.  The ten Muslims and the eight Croats, that was in September 1991?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  How many were left in, well, let's say, June 1992;

23     that is, non-Serbs?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left the unit on the 15th of May,

25     1992, but this number then, in my opinion, was halved.

Page 35499

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that your opinion or were you able to know that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure.  This is my

 3     estimate, free estimate.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That would be -- well, let me first put

 5     another question to you.

 6             You talked to us about Muslims and Croats.  How many other

 7     non-Serbs were there?  You said there were -- from other ethnicities as

 8     well.  How many of those were there?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that there was one

10     Albanian, then there were active members of the unit, Montenegrins and

11     Slovenians and Macedonians.  They were on activity duty, officers and

12     NCOs.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And how many of those?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly how many

15     because the brigade was much larger.  My records were only covering the

16     motorised company, though.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was asking you about the company, which you

18     said had a strength of 150.  Do I understand that the ten Muslims and the

19     eight Croats, they were in your company?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how many Montenegrins and Albanians were there

22     in your company or, well, let's say, other non-Serbs?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were two

24     Montenegrins, an Albanian was added.  He was an active-duty officer.  He

25     was just seconded to the unit, but it was just for a very brief period of

Page 35500

 1     time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, approximately it was 85 per cent

 3     Serbs and 15 per cent non-Serbs in September 1991, which then went down

 4     to half of that number; that is, less than 10 per cent in -- when you

 5     left the company.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Radulj, did you, as attorney general, have any contacts from

11     May 1992 to October 1993 with military activities in Prijedor?

12        A.   No, I did not.  Because when I left the brigade on the 15th of

13     May, I lived in Prijedor with my family, and I was happy to have a job

14     that didn't have to be at the front.  My only task was to be on duty in

15     front of the court building during the night.  That was the duty of all

16     the others as well.  It was night guard duty.  We had military rifles.

17     And then during the day, we would be working on our regular job -- job

18     assignments.

19        Q.   On the 30th of May - and here we had the opportunity to hear a

20     lot of testimony about that day and the events in Prijedor on that day -

21     I wanted to ask you to tell us where you were that day.

22        A.   I remember that morning very well, the morning of the 30th of

23     May.  I was with my wife in our apartment.  The children were in the

24     country with their grandfather and grandmother already.  In the morning,

25     I was woken up by loud shooting.  I got up.  My wife told me, well,

Page 35501

 1     that's normal, there's shooting every night, because I hadn't been in

 2     Prijedor for a while.  And then I said, "I think this is something more

 3     serious."  Then when it got light, I could see in front of the building

 4     that the neighbours were coming out.  There were soldiers there with

 5     rifles.  There was firing at the other end of the town.  There was smoke.

 6     I could tell that the artillery was firing.  The electricity was cut off.

 7     So even though it was a sunny day, you couldn't see anything in town

 8     because of the smoke.  I was in the Pecani neighbourhood.  That's where I

 9     was living.

10        Q.   And on that day, did you personally have any activity, requests,

11     anything like that?

12        A.   When I saw what was going on, I dressed.  There's only a school

13     in that neighbourhood.  And the neighbourhood is close to the

14     Prijedor-Novi Grad road, or actually the railway.  Also,

15     Prijedor-Novi Grad, they're parallel.  Puharska is on the other side.

16     It's a neighbourhood with a majority Muslim population.  I noticed there

17     were a number of us in uniform, without uniform, with or without weapons.

18     I noticed that there was firing from the other side at this

19     neighbourhood.  There were also groups of people there.  There was no

20     command or any kind of leadership but they were returning fire directed

21     at the other side.

22        Q.   And did you join in this fighting in any way, participate in the

23     events?

24        A.   I came to see what was going on there.  This was not a line,

25     proper classic line.  There was firing, but there was also the concern

Page 35502

 1     not to cross over the railway line and the road so that the settlement

 2     would be attacked.  I notice at one point there was a recoilless gun of

 3     the heavier weapons.  The rest were infantry weapons.  So one of the

 4     soldiers directed the cannon at a house which was actually the house of a

 5     friend of mine who was Muslim.  And I said, "Don't fire at all.  Don't

 6     fire there, especially.  It's the house of a friend of mine."  I told him

 7     that it was a Serb.  And so he didn't.

 8             If you permit me, perhaps this is not -- has to do with all of

 9     this but it has to do with me, because that day I made a gesture.  I was

10     addressed by a certain person by the name of Salko.  He was a Muslim who

11     used to work in my company.  He asked for help because his wife had gone

12     into labour.  She was about to give birth.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction: His daughter.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the hospital was at the other

15     end of the town.  It was all unsettled.  There was a lot of firing.  I

16     asked Salko, "Where is your son-in-law?  Where is your daughter's

17     husband?"  And Salko said, in a weepy voice, "I don't know.  He left the

18     house two months ago."  I asked him, "Is he in the Green Berets perhaps?"

19     He said, "Possibly."  I said, "Is he firing at us right now from the

20     other side?"  And he said, "That also is possible."  One of the soldiers

21     came up to me and said, "What are you talking to him for," that such and

22     such a person.  I said that is my friend.

23             And I thought a little bit.  I had an old car and I had five

24     litres of fuel in it, and I said, "Let's go."  The car was in the garage.

25     His daughter came.  He was -- she was literally holding her stomach in

Page 35503

 1     her hands.  She was well into labour.  I took a different road to avoid

 2     the conflict, and finally I reached the hospital.

 3        Q.   Can you just tell me -- excuse me, can you tell me whether at the

 4     hospital, since this is a woman who was in labour but who happened to be

 5     a Muslim, did you have any problems at the hospital to have her admitted

 6     to the hospital?

 7        A.   Well, let me tell you, I got information --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.

 9             Is it the Prosecution's case that women who would report at a

10     hospital would be refused assistance, medical assistance when giving

11     birth?  That that was always the case.  It may have happened here, there,

12     but ...

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MR. TRALDI:  We don't have a specific position on that.  We doubt

15     it was common, certainly.  On this particular instance, the witness

16     described it in his interview and I'm familiar with that description as

17     well.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This Chamber is not familiar with any

19     interview because it's a viva voce witness.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, I'm waiting for the moment where we learn whether

21     it was a girl or a boy that was born.  That kind of details not really

22     connected to what seems to be the Prosecution's case do not assist that

23     much.  The Chamber expects the Defence primarily to mount a Defence to

24     what the Prosecution is claiming, rather than to hear from you that this

25     witness may be a person who behaved quite well and assisted friends to

Page 35504

 1     get that baby born, but that is not what this case is about in general

 2     terms, and certainly those details may not be of that relevance.  And if

 3     you want to put any questions, do it briefly, concretely, and not let the

 4     witness go for -- for pages to describe what seems not to be matters

 5     which are in the core of this case.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was a

 8     digression, and I would just like to ask you to bear with me.  Prijedor,

 9     in our indictment, remains as the town of genocide of specific intent,

10     among other things, which would imply situations like this.  If you

11     believe that this is not relevant, about the testimony of this witness

12     that happened, an incident that happened in the middle of the most

13     serious events in Prijedor, I'm now going to move to something else then.

14     Ask the witness something else.

15        Q.   Witness, in your work as attorney general, did you ever have any

16     immediate, direct contacts with Omarska and Keraterm?

17        A.   No, I did not.  Because I didn't have any need for that.  I had

18     my own assignments which I tried to do as professionally as possible.  So

19     I had no contact, I never went there, I had nothing to do with them.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And I'm going to finish today with the

21     following question.  How did it come about that you were engaged as a

22     military prosecutor and that you transferred to Banja Luka?  In the

23     briefest possible terms.

24        A.   A my colleague of mine, a lawyer, proposed that the -- he said

25     that the military prosecutor's office was looking for attorneys who were

Page 35505

 1     also reserve officers, so I submitted a written application, which was

 2     approved, so I transferred to Banja Luka.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radulj.  Perhaps today at this point in time this

 4     is a good moment to stop, but then tomorrow we will go on with some

 5     questions about your experiences and work at the military prosecutor's

 6     office.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we believe that

 8     this is a good moment to complete the examination of this witness for

 9     today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Although I would have one short question for you.

11             Witness, you described your duties as attorney general, and you

12     told us that it was your job that -- to make sure that laws and

13     regulations were respected, especially in view of the institutions that

14     were financed from the budget municipal organs.

15             Would that include the respect for laws and regulations, for

16     example, as far as the MUP was concerned, or ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The attorney general's role is to

20     protect the laws and --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- could you -- please.  Could you please

23     slow down.  The interpreters have difficulties in following you.

24             Could you restart your answers.  You said the attorney general's

25     role is to protect, and then please take it from there.

Page 35506

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And also to protect the property

 2     rights and the interests of those institutions.  If we're speaking in a

 3     broader sense, and when we're talking about criminal responsibility and

 4     other forms of law violations, that was under the jurisdiction of the

 5     prosecutor's office.  So that's the difference between the attorney

 6     general and the prosecutor's office, if you understand me.

 7             So just property rights and interests.  When we're talking about

 8     property, land, houses, apartments, basic space.  That area.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Only material matters.  So not whether persons

10     were -- laws were violated against persons and other citizens' rights,

11     just property.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me.

14             Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I'm not

16     going to be using this document again and we'll be switching to a

17     different topic tomorrow, I would like to tender 1D05383 now.  This is

18     the 65 ter number.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1048, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D1048 is admitted.

22             Witness, I'd like to instruct you that you shouldn't speak or

23     communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony

24     you gave today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow,

25     and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

Page 35507

 1     courtroom.

 2             You may now follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow,

 5     Wednesday, the 13th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

 6     I.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of May,

 9                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.