Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35588

 1                           Thursday, 14 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced.  Therefore, I take it that the

12     Defence is ready to call its next witness.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, we are.  We are

14     calling Mr. Goran Dragojevic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dragojevic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are more comfortable in sitting, it's only

20     that I would invite you to make a solemn declaration.  If you would

21     prefer to be seated right away, then please do so.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's all right.  I'll be

23     standing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules require that you make a solemn declaration

25     of which the text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make

Page 35589

 1     that solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  GORAN DRAGOJEVIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Dragojevic.  Please be seated.

 7             Mr. Dragojevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 8     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             I would just ask help from the usher and deliver the hard copy of

11     the statement to the witness.

12                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dragojevic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   For the record, would you please state your name and surname

16     slowly.

17        A.   My last name is Dragojevic, my name is Goran, my father's name is

18     Ljubo.  I was born on the 18th of April, 1957 in Prijedor.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Dragojevic, did you give a statement to the

20     Defence team of General Mladic?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D1681 on our

23     screens.

24        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, you have a hard copy but you also have a document

25     on the screen.  Can you recognise the signature on the first page?

Page 35590

 1        A.   Yes, that is my very own signature.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at

 4     the last page of this document.

 5        Q.   You see two signatures here on the last page.  Can you recognise

 6     them?

 7        A.   Yes, these are my signatures.

 8        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this statement,

 9     Mr. Dragojevic?

10        A.   I did have an opportunity to review this statement.

11        Q.   What is recorded in this statement, is it recorded properly in

12     relation to what you said to the Defence team of General Mladic?

13        A.   Everything I said is written down there, and I stand by this

14     statement.

15        Q.   What is written down as your statement, is that correct and

16     truthful?

17        A.   Yes, what is written down is correct.

18        Q.   And truthful?

19        A.   And truthful.  But of course.

20        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

21     would you give me the same answers?

22        A.   Not only today.  I would always give the same answers to those

23     very same questions.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender this statement into evidence, Your

Page 35591

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1049, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Therefore, admitted.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would read statement summary of the

 6     witness, and I will have some questions for this witness as well, with

 7     your leave.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10             As a reserve soldier and ambulance driver, Mr. Goran Dragojevic

11     was mobilised in September 1991 and assigned to the ambulance company of

12     the 343rd Motorised Brigade.

13             He returned to Prijedor in March 1992, as his services were

14     required by the hospital.  He worked there as the ambulance driver until

15     30th of May, 1992, when he was seriously wounded on duty.

16             Mr. Dragojevic testifies that the multiparty elections were

17     followed by interethnic tensions in Prijedor.  These were acutely felt

18     when the war started in the Republic of Croatia and then Muslim and Croat

19     soldiers refused to respond to the mobilisation call.  Some of these

20     soldiers left from the Republic of Croatia to volunteer in Croatian

21     National Guard Corps, ZNG, paramilitary units.

22             As an ambulance driver, Mr. Dragojevic was on duty at the

23     hospital 24 hours a day.  On the 30th of May, 1992, at approximately 4.45

24     hours a.m., he received a call to aid some individuals who were injured

25     in front of the Prijedor Hotel.  When he received the assignment, he did

Page 35592

 1     not know who those individuals were, their nationality, or the nature of

 2     their injuries.

 3             Mr. Dragojevic departed the hospital in his vehicle, a Lada,

 4     visibly and appropriately marked as an ambulance, toward the Prijedor

 5     Hotel via Kozarska Street.  He turned on the emergency lights without

 6     using the siren signals.  At that time, he was wearing a white coat with

 7     a Red Cross sign on the left arm.

 8             En route, he noticed a group of armed civilians who suddenly

 9     opened fire on his ambulance with automatic weapons.  As a consequence of

10     this attack, Mr. Dragojevic suffered 32 penetrating gun-shot wounds.

11             That was statement summary, and I will have a couple of questions

12     for Mr. Dragojevic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dragojevic --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, can we have page 2 on our screens from the

17     statement.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 2, Mr. Dragojevic, in the last

19     sentence, you say:

20             [As read] "I returned to Prijedor from Western Slavonia in March

21     1992, as my services were required by the hospital, where I worked as an

22     ambulance driver until the 30th of May 1992; that is to say, until I was

23     wounded."

24        A.   Yes, March 1992.  I returned then because drivers were needed by

25     the hospital.  Muslim drivers refused to drive patients from the hospital

Page 35593

 1     in Prijedor towards Banja Luka and further on.  I was a professional

 2     driver anyway from 1979, and I started driving an ambulance in 1980.  I

 3     first started driving an official car and then I immediately moved on to

 4     driving an ambulance from 1980.

 5             So I returned and I stayed there until the 30th of May, 1992,

 6     when I was on duty and when I fell victim.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  When you were driving to Banja Luka after arriving in

 8     March 1992, and then in April and May, could you please tell us which

 9     roads you took and tell us whether these were regular roads, and when did

10     you start taking roads that were not exactly regular roads?

11        A.   In March when I returned, there was this normal road,

12     Prijedor-Kozarac-Banja Luka; however, already in April, mid-April, and at

13     the end of April, it was not safe to drive that way.  And then we took

14     the roundabout way to Tomasica, and then we would get out in Omarska, and

15     then go on to Banja Luka.

16        Q.   At the time, did the hospital have all these ambulances?

17        A.   Not exactly.  The car in which I was injured -- now, was it --

18     well, it was in April anyway.  I couldn't remember the date.  A driver

19     who worked with me in the hospital, he took that car away and took it to

20     Kozarac to some medical unit of theirs up there where they had some kind

21     of base on a hill.  I don't know, I never went there.  At any rate, this

22     car was there.  They had it for about seven to eight days, and I know

23     that there were negotiations under way to have the car returned to the

24     Prijedor hospital, and finally it was returned.

25        Q.   Now let us focus on the period just before the conflicts in

Page 35594

 1     Kozarac and Kozarac itself.

 2             Before the conflicts in Kozarac, did you drive patients from

 3     Prijedor to Kozarac and from Kozarac to Prijedor?

 4        A.   Since I was on duty in the hospital just before the 24th, I could

 5     not say exactly - was it the 19th, was it the 20th? - I cannot recall the

 6     exact date because it's been a very long time.  From the hospital in the

 7     afternoon hours, I drove a lady who was pregnant, who was an ethnic

 8     Muslim, from the hospital to there.  For safety reasons, I was advised

 9     not to go on my own, and then a medical technician went with me,

10     Irfan Kuteric, let me mention his name, he worked in the department for

11     internal medicine, and another technician who was also from Kozarac and

12     who worked in Prijedor; however, he was a local of Kozarac.

13             We brought that woman to Kozarac.  At the very entrance into

14     Kozarac by the sawmill, we were stopped by the Territorial Defence, as

15     they called themselves, and they checked us.  They knew Kapetanovic, that

16     technician, and they let us go, and he said that we were giving this

17     pregnant lady a ride, and I brought her to her house, which was above the

18     mosque, and she got out there.  And allegedly, the woman was in hospital

19     because her delivery date -- her due date was not there yet but she had

20     had bleeding and that's why she was in hospital, but then it stopped and

21     then she was released.

22             There were barricades there, but nobody made any problem for me

23     then, as I drove by in the ambulance.

24        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  Irfan Kuteric and Kapetanovic was the

25     other one that you mentioned, you mentioned these two technicians?

Page 35595

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What was their ethnicity?

 3        A.   They were Muslims, Muslims.

 4        Q.   Fighting started in Kozarac.  What preceded the fighting in

 5     Kozarac?

 6        A.   As far as I heard, the army, the authorities, asked these

 7     civilians, the Territorial Defence, to hand over the weapons that they

 8     had, and those barricades were supposed to be dismantled.  However, just

 9     before the 24th, people were saying, and this was a public thing, that

10     they were making some kind of hedgehogs out of steel and used logs as an

11     obstacle for the army that was supposed to come from Banja Luka to

12     Prijedor.

13        Q.   What about civilians from Kozarac?

14        A.   Now, was it the 24th?  I think it's the 24th, but I cannot tell

15     you the exact date.  On that day, I was there when civilians were leaving

16     Kozarac.  It wasn't that just a few people left.  It was lots of people.

17     Several thousand people who left.  They were going from Kozarac towards

18     Susici, the bus station there.  My colleague, who drove an ambulance in

19     the Kozarac medical centre, he was walking in front of them with a white

20     flag.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What were you doing on that day?

22        A.   On that day, I received orders from my superiors in the hospital.

23     I was told that, together who another colleague, Bogdanovic, I was

24     supposed to go as far as possible with two ambulances to Susici for as

25     far as we would be allowed to go and to give a ride to those people who

Page 35596

 1     are not capable of sitting on a bus and to bring them to the hospital or

 2     to take them to their friends and relatives in town.  I drove by myself.

 3     I was sitting in the ambulance vehicle, and I went four or five times

 4     between Prijedor and Susici.  So there were these four or five tours, if

 5     I can call them that.  And every time I would give three or four people a

 6     ride.  It depended if there were somebody on a stretcher, then I'd have

 7     one person sitting next to me and another person sitting next to the

 8     patient.  There was a seat where one could sit next to the stretcher.  My

 9     colleague, he did more or less the same thing.  He drove from Susici to

10     Prijedor just about as many times.  So we took them where they wanted to

11     go.  If they wanted to go to the hospital, then they were taken to the

12     hospital.  There were quite a few people who were sick who had high blood

13     pressure, blood sugar, et cetera.  I brought them to the internal

14     medicine department at the hospital where doctors would give them first

15     aid, and then I would go back and I don't know where they went

16     afterwards.

17             I drove Mr. Refko Kapetanovic during one of these tours, and he

18     worked with my wife at the accounting department at the hospital.  He was

19     born in Kozarac, and he was their supervisor there in the accounting

20     department.  So I gave him a ride, his lady wife, his mother.  I drove

21     them to Pecani to the wife's brother, Fadil, who also worked in our

22     hospital as a warehouse keeper.  And that's where they stayed.  Now,

23     where they ended up, if necessary I will say that as well.

24             In 1998/1999 he personally, Refko Kapetanovic, got in touch with

25     me and thanked me for having helped him and all of that.

Page 35597

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Besides your two ambulances, were there any other

 2     vehicles that transported civilians from Susici to Prijedor; i.e.,

 3     civilians from Kozarac?

 4        A.   There were a lot of vehicles there.  There were buses.  I

 5     wouldn't be able to tell you how many, 10 or 20.  I didn't count them.  I

 6     didn't need to count them.  But a lot of civilians left at that time.  It

 7     looked like a huge group of people leaving a football pitch, and they

 8     were moving along the road.  There was no traffic at all.  We arrived

 9     where we were.  The area was safe there.  And at a distance, you could

10     hear sporadic shots.  Those people were then put on buses and were driven

11     away.

12             Somebody said that there was no need for them to be taken to the

13     hospital.  The buses drove off to the sports hall Mladost in the centre

14     of Prijedor and also to the Prijedor football pitch.  I wasn't in either

15     of the two places, so I don't know what happened next.  I was in the

16     hospital minding my own business and doing my own work.

17        Q.   What did you hear about these people?  Could those people leave

18     the stadium and the sports hall and go and visit their family members if

19     they had them in Prijedor?

20        A.   They could go wherever they wanted to go.  Just like I took

21     Refko Kapetanovic to his family, they could also get off the buses.  And

22     if they had friends, they could spend the night with their friends.  If

23     they didn't have anywhere to go, I suppose that they waited to be able to

24     leave for Croatia and for other places.  I really can't tell you much

25     about that because I don't know.

Page 35598

 1        Q.   Very well.  And now let's go back in time.  Let's go back to the

 2     time after the take-over in Prijedor on the 30th of April, 1992.  After

 3     the take-over, did Muslims and Croats remain working in the hospital

 4     together with you?

 5        A.   Yes.  On the 30th of April, there was a take-over and the SDS

 6     took over.  My colleagues remained working in the hospital.  On the day

 7     when I was shot, they were still there.  And after that, Irfan Kurtovic

 8     was there working in the hospital in 1994 when I returned from the

 9     military hospital.  There were a lot of doctors among them, specialists,

10     surgeons, Dr. Kurtegic [phoen], Dr. Sprajcar [phoen] who was a

11     gynecologist, Dr. Osman Mahmuljin.

12             On that day when I was shot, Dr. Begic was the one who tended to

13     my wounds, together with Dr. Sovilj.  Dr. Sovilj is currently the

14     hospital CEO.  My colleagues told me that those two doctors tended to my

15     wounds in the emergency room.  None of them stopped working at all.

16        Q.   Do you remember if Irfan Kurtovic was anywhere near you?

17        A.   Yes, he was.  On the day when I was shot and when I was brought

18     to the hospital, my colleagues told me that he had been among the first

19     who ran up to me.  He helped everybody to take me out of the car.  Both

20     my arm and my leg were severed.  He was there.  Not only him.  There were

21     many others.  And after I was taken to the military hospital for

22     treatment, he continued treating my family in a very positive and good

23     way.  I had young children.  My family lived on his way home, and every

24     day on his way from work, he would stop by and he brought them milk and

25     eggs and other bare necessities.

Page 35599

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Dragojevic.  And now we're going to

 2     look at a few documents.  The first one is 1D2840.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is it your intention to go through all of

 4     these documents?  I noted that they are all mid-1993, whereas the

 5     statement of the witness appears not to give any specifics on what

 6     happened in 1993.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  The papers are from the 1993, Your Honours, but

 8     events described in the paper are from 1992 and exactly the date when

 9     this gentleman was wounded.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

11             MR. LUKIC:  We need -- first I will ask the witness, actually.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dragojevic, what is this document before

13     you?

14        A.   This is a photo of Kozarski Vjesnik, a newspaper that was

15     published at the time in the town of Prijedor.

16        Q.   How did the Defence get hold of this newspaper?

17        A.   I don't know how you got hold of it, but I have all the copies of

18     this newspaper because of the group of men who shot at me.  I know a lot

19     of them -- among them who was born in the town of Prijedor and grew up

20     with me.

21        Q.   No, I just asked you about the document.  Do you remember that

22     you gave us --

23        A.   Yes, I gave you a copy of the newspaper.

24             MR. LUKIC:  We need first column on the left, second paragraph.

25     If that can be enlarged.  And bottom part of ... we have to scroll up,

Page 35600

 1     sorry.  Scroll up.  Go left, please.  Yes.  And we have to scroll down in

 2     English version.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] It's not very legible, so I'm going to read.  We

 4     need the last paragraph in English on this page, page 1.  It says here:

 5             "'Since the citizens of Brdo did not comply with the ultimatum,

 6     because a large number was against the hand-over of the perpetrators of

 7     the crime in Polje, I went into the woods below my father's house with a

 8     group of people,' says Asim Muhic, a Lieutenant who was in the Sixth

 9     Krajina Brigade up until 15 May 1992 ..."

10             Do you know that some members of the JNA left and joined the

11     enemy armed force in Prijedor?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why did you lead, Mr. Lukic?

13             MR. LUKIC:  I just wanted to introduce the document since we --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not introducing the document.  You are

15     talking about Muslims who joined the opposite side.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec.

18             MR. ZEC:  And as His Honour, Judge Moloto, indicated, this topic

19     is not covered in witness's statement.  He didn't talk about it.  It's

20     all what's happening now is that Mr. Lukic putting the article, reading

21     the facts to the witness, and then trying to get the witness to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know what the question will be that

23     Mr. Lukic will put to the witness, but perhaps it would be good,

24     Mr. Lukic, if you formulate a clear question and --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Regarding the objection, if I may just respond.  All

Page 35601

 1     those documents are enlisted at the end of the statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And there is no comment, that's true.  But it's not

 4     surprise for the Prosecution that we might comment on those, and the

 5     objection by the Prosecution filed in the motion was that they do not

 6     object if I ask the questions in regard of those documents.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, let's then hear what the questions will

 8     be because I haven't heard any question yet.  And apart from that they

 9     are listed and whether the Prosecution opposes or not, Mr. Lukic, if you

10     just put a row of articles at the end, the Chamber has got no idea.  We

11     see that it's 1993.  You tell us it's relevant for events in 1992.  But

12     most interesting is what can the witness tell us.

13             So please put a question to him.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dragojevic, did you read the entire text

16     that is before us?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   Does this text deal with the events that happened in 1993 or

19     1992?

20        A.   This text deals with the events that happened at the beginning of

21     1992 and later on in the course of 1992.  But it was published in 1993,

22     as far as I know.  However, the events described in this article happened

23     in 1992.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, let's get to the point where the witness

Page 35602

 1     tells us anything of his personal knowledge which relates to this

 2     document.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But even before that, where do we see in this

 4     article that the events took place in 1992?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  For example, Your Honour, I read, and I mentioned

 6     15th of May, 1992, and it's in the last part --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where is the --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The last paragraph in the English version on this

 9     page, we have 15th of May, 1992.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it says that someone was a lieutenant up till

11     the 15th of May, 1992.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say that's an event, then I'm wondering what

14     your questions will be.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But also it's mentioned fightings in the Brdo area.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- and then let's ask what the witness

17     can tell us about that.

18             Please put a question to the witness which provides personal

19     knowledge, observations, whatever, that would assist the Chamber,

20     Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, what do you know about fighting on Brdo or around

23     Brdo?  When did that happen?

24        A.   The events on Brdo around Kurevo and thereabouts, we knew about

25     those before the month of May, 1992.  We knew that paramilitary

Page 35603

 1     formations were being trained there.  Am I allowed to mention any names?

 2     Slavko Ecimovic was among them.  He was their leader.  And he bragged all

 3     over the town.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, were you there?  Did you see that training?

 5     Were you at those locations?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't there.  I wasn't in

 7     Brdo ever.  But every day I was in town with those people.  There were

 8     two or three cafe bars open.  I spent a lot of time with them, and I

 9     heard from them that they were being trained up there as the

10     Territorial Defence.  Obviously that was a pretext, but entirely

11     different things were happening there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What things were happening there where you were not

13     present?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what was going on.

15     But according to their stories and the stories of others, they were

16     getting ready.  They were trained to fight.  They learned how to shoot.

17     Subsequently, we heard people bragging that they had often gone up there

18     to see what they were doing, that they had brought food for them, and so

19     on and so forth.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you heard people bragging about what

21     happened there, but you have no personal knowledge on what actually

22     happened.  But hearsay is evidence is admitted in this Tribunal, so

23     therefore --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I -- no.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

Page 35604

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dragojevic, where is Hambarine?  What do you

 3     know about Hambarine?  What happened there in May 1992?  Where is

 4     Hambarine?

 5        A.   On the 22nd of May, a group who called themselves

 6     Territorial Defence set up a check-point there.  A group of some five or

 7     six soldiers on their way back from there, who lived in Ljubija and Zune,

 8     and there was Croats and Serbs among them, were stopped at the

 9     check-point.  Two were killed and four were injured.  One of them still

10     lives very close to me.  He's my neighbour.  He's a Croat.  He was shot

11     with over 18 bullets.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, were you there in Hambarine or is this what

13     you heard about it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When that happened, when that

15     happened I wasn't in Hambarine.  Hambarine is some 8 kilometres or

16     9 kilometres away from Prijedor; that is, on the road to Ljubija.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber has heard a lot of evidence about

18     Hambarine and knows where it is.

19             Mr. Lukic, again, what the witness apparently can testify about

20     is, I take it, that he has direct knowledge of the wounding of at least

21     the -- what remains as wounds of his neighbour.  We have heard, if we are

22     talking about the same event, we are talking about, then we heard some

23     direct evidence about that, which I wonder whether the witness says that

24     he heard about this as well, whether that substantially adds something,

25     but certainly the wounds of his neighbour is new information but perhaps

Page 35605

 1     not a surprise in view of the other evidence we received.

 2             I'm wondering whether we go -- this is the first out of ten

 3     documents.  You have now gone already ten minutes above your time

 4     estimate, which was 30 minutes, and I wonder whether -- how we will

 5     proceed.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If I -- then I may have been misinformed that you'd

 8     claimed one hour.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then if I made a mistake in that respect,

11     apologies for that.  But please try to clearly elicit from the witness

12     evidence which adds to what is already in evidence and which is evidence

13     reflecting his personal knowledge, observations, et cetera, rather than

14     what he read in newspapers or what he heard in bars.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, perhaps I should have asked you at the very

18     outset, what do you do nowadays?

19        A.   Nowadays I am a member of the municipal assembly of the town of

20     Prijedor, and I am the president of the association of victims of the

21     attack on Prijedor.

22        Q.   As president of the association of victims of the attack on

23     Prijedor, do you deal precisely with matters that deal with the attack on

24     Prijedor, the preparations for the attack, and so on?

25        A.   Yes.  I can say, publicly, that everything that happened in

Page 35606

 1     Prijedor after the 30th of May -- actually, everything started with the

 2     killing of the policeman Djapa before the 1st of May; then Hambarine, the

 3     22nd of May.  In the meantime, in Prijedor, normal life went on.  Do

 4     understand that.  We lived a normal life.  There weren't any problems in

 5     town.  And then on the 30th of May in the morning at quarter to 5.00,

 6     they had planned and organised and prepared this action when they stopped

 7     me on the road from the hospital to the hotel.  I was driving there to

 8     get to the injured persons.  I didn't know what their ethnic backgrounds

 9     were, what kind of wounds were involved.  Nothing.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just ask you this:  Brdo, what does that have

11     to do with Hambarine?  I asked you about that and you didn't answer.

12        A.   Well, it is linked geographically, Hambarine-Brdo, then further

13     on Kurevo, and those forests in that area up there.  So that area is when

14     you cross the Sana River.  The Sana River.  There were settlements there

15     where 99 per cent of the population was Muslim.

16        Q.   You told us that some persons went to see these groups in Kurevo,

17     and we see that underneath the photo of Slavko Ecimovic in this text.

18     And now I would like to show you another document -- actually, first let

19     me ask you this:  What was your in information?  In the town of Prijedor

20     itself, were there supposed to be members of the Green Berets that were

21     supposed to join the attackers who had come from out of town?  What is

22     your knowledge in that regard?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that leading, Mr. -- you just give the answer in

24     the mouth of the witness, "Is it true that you went with a red car

25     yesterday to Scheveningen," and then the proper question is what did you

Page 35607

 1     do yesterday?  Did you go -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We have [indiscernible] document, Your Honour.  I was

 3     asked either to ask first or introduce the document.  I have to know what

 4     to do.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have to properly examine the witness.  That

 6     is what you are supposed to do.  If there is any specific matter you have

 7     read in those documents about which you want to examine the witness, then

 8     you put, to start with, questions to the witness primarily such as, where

 9     were you, on what day, et cetera, and then you can compare that at a

10     later stage, but you don't put all the information from the document to

11     the witness first and say, "Is this possibly what happened?"  That's not

12     proper examination-in-chief, Mr. Lukic, and I'm sorry to -- if you would

13     not understand that.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, you heard what I asked you.  What do you know

17     about the forces that attacked Prijedor?  What did they consist of?  Do

18     you have any personal knowledge?

19        A.   I do have knowledge to the effect that those days in Prijedor,

20     there were many unknown people who appeared, and most of them wore

21     tracksuits.  That was sort of the way they organised one another.  They

22     gathered in coffee bars that were still open and practically all of them

23     wore tracksuits.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D2841, please.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you have any information as to how many of

Page 35608

 1     these persons were in the town of Prijedor?

 2        A.   I did not have that information.  Later on, I found out that this

 3     was a large group that was supposed to meet with this other group that

 4     attacked Prijedor that morning.  However, these people did not respond

 5     and did not react, so this group that had set out from up there, from

 6     Kurevo, Brdo, et cetera, after all their plan failed; that is to say, to

 7     take important points in town, SUP, the municipality, the radio station,

 8     the barracks, and so on.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you how did you learn later

10     that these were the plans?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How did I learn that?  Well, when I

12     returned from the military medical hospital in 1994, then I wanted to

13     find out the truth because at that moment when I was wounded, I didn't

14     realise that Prijedor was under attack.  Do understand that I was wounded

15     at quarter to 5.00 in the morning.  So I say publicly here and now, and

16     I've testified about that already, everything that happened, happened

17     after that; that is to say, those who had been preparing that operation

18     for a long time, secretly, and who knew exactly certain locations in

19     Prijedor that they were supposed to take, like Poversnje [phoen], Ribar,

20     the hotel, SUP, the radio station, Prijedor.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you again.  You say you gained this

22     knowledge after your return in 1994.  Now, what is exactly, for example,

23     the source that you know that they intended to take the hotel or the SUP,

24     which is perhaps very logical that they would, but how did you learn that

25     those were their plans?

Page 35609

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you this.  I was the

 2     first victim, and then after that there were other victims, then another

 3     young man fell victim in another ambulance.  But all the others were

 4     civilians, young men who worked in the State Security Service, in the

 5     police, who were going to work, and right there in front of the

 6     municipality and the Ribar, that is where they fell victim.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that doesn't say yet what exactly their plans

 8     had been, but you say people fell victim at those locations, and you

 9     learned that after your return in 1994.  Is that well understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because I was injured so badly

11     that I didn't know anything until I arrived in Banja Luka.  I first came

12     to in Banja Luka.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, newspaper articles you have given to the

14     Defence.  Did you learn from those articles in Kozarski Vjesnik as well

15     what had happened?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were articles that reported

17     about certain things that happened.  I got real information from my

18     colleagues who lived in town, who worked there, and who knew what had

19     happened.  Who were in town, who stayed there after 1992 when I went to

20     the military medical academy.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Lukic, we'll take a break.  Could you give us an indication

23     as how much time you think you would further need?  Because we are -- we

24     have some concerns about evidence being presented which mainly consists

25     of a reconstruction of events a couple of years after the events took

Page 35610

 1     place by someone who wasn't present, someone who holds a specific

 2     position, by the way, a position which may be relevant for the evaluation

 3     of his evidence but which was not mentioned in any way, if I see it well,

 4     in his statement.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I learned about it two nights ago.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then you should have immediately informed.  I

 7     don't know whether you did.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I did.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's at least --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Not on that, actually.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it may be --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I named the position.  Everything else I've asked him

13     now.  I sent information report.  I think you got the same, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, a position, a higher position, a certain

15     responsibility for a group of victims, of course, may be relevant to know

16     if you evaluate the evidence of a witness.  But I leave it to that.

17             How much time would you need after the break, and I would urge

18     you to elicit evidence which meets the standards of what we expect from a

19     witness of fact.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I just have to show two or three more documents.

21     Probably ten minutes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ten minutes.  That's understood.

23             Witness, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20

24     minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 35611

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             If we can have 1D2843 on our screens, please.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Where is this article from; do you recognise it?

 9        A.   Also from Kozarski Vjesnik.

10        Q.   Who is depicted in the photo on the left-hand side of the page?

11        A.   This is my photo.

12        Q.   We are interested in the top of the first paragraph on the

13     left-hand side of the page.  It will also be the first paragraph in the

14     English version.  [In English] But not bold but regular letters, yes.

15             [Interpretation] It says at the beginning of the paragraph --

16     [In English] It cannot be read.

17             [Interpretation] "The first report of the wounded arrived at the

18     Prijedor hospital from the Prijedor hotel at 0445 hours.  Only ten

19     minutes later, Goran Dragojevic ..."

20             [In English]it cannot be read in B/C/S.  It's really poor.  I'll

21     read in English, so it ...

22             "Only ten minutes later, Goran Dragojevic left the hospital and

23     headed to the hotel in his Lada station wagon with red cross markings and

24     emergency lights switched on.  There was nobody in the streets and the

25     rain was only beginning to fall.  When the Lada arrived at the underpass,

Page 35612

 1     out of the blue, bursts of fire from the left and from the right came

 2     down on it."

 3             [Interpretation] Mr. Dragojevic, is this a fair description of

 4     what happened when you were wounded?

 5        A.   Yes.  I left the hospital in the morning.  My car was clearly

 6     marked.  I had lights on but no siren.  I was on my way to the hotel.  I

 7     was supposed to pick up the wounded and bring them back to the hospital.

 8        Q.   When you were wounded on that occasion, did you recognise some of

 9     your attackers?

10        A.   Yes.  There was a group of them, and I recognised a few lads who

11     had been my acquaintances before the war.  I knew them and they knew me

12     very well.

13        Q.   Would you like to tell us their names in open court, or would you

14     like us to move us into private session?

15        A.   I would like us to move into private session because the

16     prosecutor's office in Bosnia and Herzegovina has already started

17     proceedings against them.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What exactly is the reason why we have to hear this

19     in private session?

20             MR. LUKIC:  He does not want to accuse anybody so somebody would

21     be convicted because of his words.  He wants to -- not to cause any

22     problems to anybody.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I can't imagine -- I can't imagine that --

24     first of all, of course, if you give the names to the prosecutor's office

25     in --

Page 35613

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know the names.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Republika Srpska, then I take that is with the

 3     purpose of having them prosecuted, and I saw in the statement that the

 4     witness says that nobody was prosecuted.  But I can imagine, but that's a

 5     pretty different reason, that --

 6             Mr. Mladic, it's the same again.  No such communication with the

 7     public gallery.  Is that clear to you?  You know what the consequences

 8     are if you continue like that.

 9             I can imagine that if investigations are ongoing that the

10     integrity of those investigations may be served by hearing this

11     information in private session, but I'm also looking at the Prosecution

12     whether there is any objection against, perhaps for that reason, hearing

13     this information in private session.

14             MR. ZEC:  Certainly there is no objection.  None.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you have any awareness of investigations

16     ongoing or prosecutions being prepared, Mr. Zec?

17             MR. ZEC:  Not entirely on this investigation or this specific

18     incident, and I don't think that we necessarily need names of these

19     individuals.  But it's up to Mr. Lukic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic has asked for it.  We'll turn

21     briefly into private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do, I have a clarification question.

23             Sir, you say you knew these people.  These were lads that you

24     were acquainted with.  But this morning, at page 19, line 3, you say:

25             "I didn't know what their ethnic backgrounds were, what kind of

Page 35614

 1     wounds were involved, nothing."

 2             You were talking about the people who attacked you at the same

 3     spot.  Now you're saying you know them and you know -- some of them

 4     you're acquainted with.  Which one must we accept as the correct

 5     position?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I did not say, as you

 7     have just put it, that I didn't know those people who opened fire on me.

 8     Where did you -- where?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As I told you, it's on line 3 at page 19.  You

10     say -- I'll just start in the middle:

11             "... there weren't any problems in town.  And then on the 30th of

12     May, in the morning at quarter to 5.00, they had planned and organised

13     and prepared this action when they stopped me on the road from the

14     hospital to the hotel.  I was driving there to get the injured persons.

15     I didn't know what their ethnic backgrounds were ..."

16             Or unless you were referring to the backgrounds of the people you

17     were going to fetch.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people that I was going to

19     fetch.  The hospital was asked to send a vehicle to transport the wounded

20     to the hospital.  I didn't know their ethnic background.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, thank you.  That explains my little

22     confusion.  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we briefly turn into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 35615











11  Pages 35615-35617 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35618

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I took part of your ten minutes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I am closing to an end.  Only at this moment, I would

23     offer those documents we looked with the witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And these were two of these articles, isn't it?

25     Three.

Page 35619

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Three.  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the numbers.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  1D02840.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1050, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  D1050 is admitted.

 7             Next one.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Next one is 1D02841.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1051, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D1051 is admitted.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And the last one, 1D02843.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1052.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D1052 is admitted.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I just have one more

18     question for this witness.  Actually, two questions.  I'm sorry.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] At the time when you worked in the hospital,

20     after the take-over of power, did you see that non-Serbs were treated in

21     that hospital as well; that is to say, Croats, Muslims, Roma, Ukrainians?

22        A.   Yes, I actually brought them from different places around

23     Prijedor; for example, where Ukrainians live, from Trnopolje, then where

24     the Roma live, a hamlet there, towards Puharska where other non-Serbs

25     live.  Of course.  All of that was normal, I'm telling you, until that

Page 35620

 1     30th of May, 1992.

 2        Q.   One more question:  What was your own attitude towards Muslims

 3     and Croats when you returned from your medical treatment and today?  What

 4     is your attitude towards non-Serbs who live in Prijedor?

 5        A.   I'm just going to tell you one thing now.  Before all of this

 6     happened, I lived in a community where we lived together, Serbs and

 7     Muslims, in a single apartment.  I was born in a house where I was

 8     delivered by a Muslim woman, and she took care of me as a baby and she

 9     carried out those rites of theirs.  So we lived as one family.  To this

10     day, I have to tell you this, our socialising before the war, it was just

11     so wonderful.  Perhaps others were envious of our wonderful friendships.

12     We went to the riverside, to Mrakovica, to Kotlovaca.  They came to

13     celebrate our patron saints' days with us and when we celebrated

14     Christmas.  We went to celebrate the Eid with them.  It was an honour if

15     your best man would be somebody with a different ethnic background.  That

16     was for us, and for them, regardless of whether somebody was a Serb or a

17     Croat or a Muslim.

18             I'm just going to tell you briefly about one detail, what touched

19     me the most, ever, throughout my life.  In 1994, I came back after this

20     huge number of surgeries, and all that time the situation was very

21     difficult then.  Life was hard in Prijedor.  With about 10 marks, you

22     could live for about a month.

23             In 1994, two men came on bicycles from this area from out of

24     town, as we call it.  They were Muslims.  They brought me a gift to thank

25     me.  Because before the war I was such a person that I helped them, I

Page 35621

 1     saved their children, their families, drove them.  This was a white

 2     package that they received from Merhamet with the star and crescent where

 3     all the things you'd needed, the bare necessities that you needed in your

 4     home, were from this package from the charity organisation.  And they

 5     said, "We have nothing else to offer you, but we are bringing you this

 6     and we're so sorry that those people who did this to you did it precisely

 7     to you."

 8             And now after that, my contact with Irfan Kurtovic, I mean, I'm

 9     in touch with him all the time, then the nurse, the lady who worked

10     before the war, and then went to Pristina and then from Pristina to

11     Belgrade.  And then after I fell victim, it so happened that I came to

12     her ward, Sabiha is her name, she took such good care of me there.  She

13     bathed me as if she were my own mother because for six months I couldn't

14     do anything.  I was just lying there like a book on the table.  I could

15     just move one hand and that was it.

16             I want to tell you that, to this day, I mean now, my youngest son

17     just got married to a girl from a mixed family.  The parents are Croats

18     and Muslims.  I have no prejudice.  I never looked at people that way, on

19     the basis of ethnicity and religion.  I saw people through my work,

20     through my own life.  I'm so sorry that this happened, and I'm saying now

21     that I wished that those who did that and those who did anything else

22     that was evil, I want them to be held responsible.  I want them all to be

23     held responsible.  Not just one side.  May all perpetrators of all

24     misdeeds be held responsible.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you've answered the question.

Page 35622

 1             That was your last question, Mr. Lukic?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  And I have one last after last.  Just a short one.

 3     This will be a short answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, make your question a bit longer as long as the

 5     answer is short.

 6             Please.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Just one.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Today, Mr. Dragojevic, you are a member of the

 9     municipality assembly and you're in charge of this association of victims

10     on the attack on Prijedor.  Are you a member of any other organisation?

11        A.   I am.  Now I am a member of the travelling school of peace that

12     is organised by the UN and the OSCE.  I'm the only one from Prijedor who

13     goes with all the victims from all of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We travel

14     and we speak to school children, rather high school students.  People who

15     are from first, second, third year of high school.  We tell them our sad

16     stories, and we tell them that they should not allow anyone to bring any

17     kind of discord amongst them, that they should try to live the way we

18     lived before the war, and that they should socialise.

19             I can tell you that we have got results.  I have already received

20     certain tokens of recognition.  The results are significant.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dragojevic.  At this moment, this is all we had

22     for you.  Thank you.

23        A.   You're welcome.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25             Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution, I have three

Page 35623

 1     short questions and could you please keep your answers short.

 2             First, you told us about secret arming of non-Serbs.  Did you

 3     ever hear about Serbs secretly arming before the conflict bursted out?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the conflict broke out, I

 5     heard that there was this Territorial Defence where weapons were being

 6     distributed to Serbs and non-Serbs.  That is what people talked about in

 7     town and people knew --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm talking specifically about arming of the

 9     Serbs.  Not arming over --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then you told us quite a bit about the

12     large number of people that had left, for example, Kozarac, and you told

13     us where they went, where they were boarding buses.  Did you ever hear

14     about non-Serbs being led to places where they were not free to leave,

15     such as Keraterm or Trnopolje or Omarska?  Did you ever learn about that

16     happening?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, because afterwards

18     I was wounded, on the 30th, and then there was no Omarska, no Keraterm.

19     When I returned later, I heard about this Omarska.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And not about Trnopolje, not about Keraterm?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Later I heard about Trnopolje,

22     that it was a reception centre where some technicians worked and doctors,

23     people who were on duty, and people could leave whenever they wished and

24     they could enter whenever they wished, so they were there sort of for

25     safety reasons, safety and security.

Page 35624

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, finally, you told us that the doctors in the

 2     hospital just continued to work.  Did you learn at any point in time

 3     later that some doctors may not have been able to continue to work and

 4     perhaps even were facing a bad fate?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I returned from Belgrade,

 6     since my house is nearby, I went there for having my wounds bandaged

 7     again and so on, I found out that many doctors who were of different

 8     ethnic backgrounds and some other employees had left the work

 9     organisation in the meantime.  They either went abroad or, quite simply,

10     I don't know what happened to them.  But afterwards, they were not

11     working there.  Some stayed on, very few, like Dr. Sprajcar and so on,

12     but quite a few were no longer there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that you never learned that doctors,

14     for example, were detained or even were killed?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do understand that on the 30th of

16     May when I was injured, all of these doctors were working.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I wasn't asking whether they were working on the

18     30th of May.  I was asking whether you learned at a later stage whether

19     you learned that doctors, for example, were detained or even were killed?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you afterwards when I

21     returned, I heard that certain doctors stopped working there.  And what

22     happened to them, whether they were killed, whether they went abroad,

23     well, now, like Dr. Newman [phoen], I came across him just before I came

24     here to The Hague.  He worked in our hospital.  Then Dr. Becir Begovic, I

25     see him every day.  So some people I do see over there.

Page 35625

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking you whether there were some doctors

 2     working.  But I'm asked you whether you ever learned or heard that

 3     doctors were detained and were killed.  And if you haven't heard that --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers my question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dragojevic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 8     Mr. Zec.  You'll find Mr. Zec to your right.  Mr. Zec is counsel for the

 9     Prosecution.

10             Mr. Zec.

11             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Your time estimate remains the same, 25 minutes?

13             MR. ZEC:  I'll do my best, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. ZEC:  And before I continue, I would like to raise just one

16     issue in respect of the article that we just got admitted into evidence.

17     I was waiting for an earlier opportunity, but the issue is that we don't

18     obviously object to the article, D1052, which relates to the witness's

19     personal knowledge.  For the other two articles, the issue is that they

20     rely upon events or focuses to the events that the witness has no

21     personal knowledge about or, rather, very minimum.

22             So in that circumstances, we submit that this should have effect

23     at least to the weight of the articles to be given when Your Honours

24     assess the evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll always assess the probative value of the

Page 35626

 1     evidence which is before us.  And you may have noted that I slowed down

 2     quite a bit before I pronounced the decision to admit so as to give you

 3     an opportunity to object, if you would have wished to do so.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. ZEC:  And the estimate is -- on the record it says 25

 7     minutes.  It should be 1 hour, 25 minutes, if I'm not --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then for the second time today, I must have made a

 9     mistake.  But please proceed, but I am confident that we'll conclude the

10     testimony of this witness today and that even some time will be left for

11     practical matters.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

15        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Dragojevic.

16             Today you told us that the SDS took over power in Prijedor on

17     30th April 1992, and you were also talking about Hambarine and other

18     settlement -- Muslim settlements around Prijedor.  I take it that you

19     were aware, were you not, that in the week before 30th May 1992 the Serb

20     forces had carried out operations in Hambarine and Kozarac where large

21     amounts of civilian property were destroyed in these operations?  Were

22     you aware of this?

23        A.   In the statement, I stated that on the 22nd when those soldiers

24     were attacked, there was also the incident at Hambarine on that side.

25     And as far as Kozarac is concerned, when the civilians left on the eve of

Page 35627

 1     that day, or rather on the day when the civilians left, they attacked a

 2     soldier on a tank.

 3        Q.   I apologise.  As you heard His Honour Judge Orie, the time is

 4     limited.  So my question was really focused to the civilian object

 5     property.  Were you aware that civilian property was destroyed in the

 6     attacks?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Were you aware that large numbers of non-Serb civilians were

 9     killed in these operations?  Were you aware of this?

10        A.   On what day?

11        Q.   As indicated, during the operations - for example, Hambarine,

12     Kozarac - in the week before 30th May --

13        A.   No, that is not true.

14        Q.   So your evidence before this Court is that this did not happen,

15     large numbers of civilians were not killed in these operations.  Is that

16     your evidence?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, how could I have driven my ambulance and how

18     could I have transported people if civilians had been shot at?  All the

19     civilians left Kozarac on the buses, and they were brought to the stadium

20     and to the area in front of the sports hall.  There were no casualties on

21     that occasion at all.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do I understand - and please focus your

23     answer on the question - the question was:  Is it your evidence that in

24     the week before the event you described, before the take-over, that there

25     were no large number of civilians killed during military operations?

Page 35628

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I stated in Susici was that

 2     none of the civilians were killed then.  I stand by that.  There was no

 3     fire opened on civilians at all.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was not whether a large number of

 5     people were killed in Susici.  The question was whether it is your

 6     evidence that not civilians in large numbers were killed during these

 7     operations.  That's the question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, you're putting things into

 9     my mouth.  There were no operations around that time.  I don't know what

10     was going on later, because I wasn't there.  I don't know what happened

11     next.  I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I was not present.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question is about before the time that

13     you were wounded.  You say there were no military operations?  Not in

14     Hambarine, not in Kozarac?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 22nd, there were attacks and

16     those two soldiers were killed and the others were injured.  There were

17     activities and the army intervened to remove that check-point, according

18     to stories.  I don't know whether there were any casualties on the Muslim

19     side.  Because nobody brought them to the hospital.  I didn't, nobody

20     else did, so I don't know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You don't know.

22             Mr. Zec, please proceed.

23             MR. ZEC:

24        Q.   And one more final question on this before I move on.  So is it

25     your evidence that you are not aware at any point in time that these

Page 35629

 1     operations, such as Hambarine, Kozarac, Brdo, that their non-Serb

 2     civilians were not killed?  Is that your evidence or have you learned of

 3     these casualties at any point?

 4        A.   I learnt about all that when I returned from the military

 5     hospital.  I learnt what had happened, where fighting had taken place.

 6     All that happened after I returned from the military hospital in 1994.

 7        Q.   Hopefully we'll get to some details later on, but let me move on.

 8     And I'm now focusing to the period after the take-over of power in

 9     Prijedor by the SDS.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, I nevertheless would like to seek the last

11     answer clarified.

12             You said you learned about fighting that had taken place, and you

13     learned that after you returned in 1994.  As part of that, did you learn

14     that large numbers of civilians had been killed during those operations?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nobody told me anything about

16     civilians.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, I now would like to focus at the time after the

21     Serb take-over of Prijedor on 30th April, 1992.  At the time you lived in

22     Prijedor in a neighbourhood called Cirkin Polje; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   At that time, you were a member of the SDS; correct?

25        A.   At that time, every single person was a member of a movement.

Page 35630

 1     There was the HDZ, the SDA --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple question is:  Were you at that

 3     time a member of the SDS?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was a sympathiser.  I was not

 5     a member.  I did not have a membership card.  I was just their

 6     sympathiser.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question.

 8             Next question please, Mr. Zec.

 9             MR. ZEC:

10        Q.   You say that you were wounded on 30th May 1992, and up to that

11     moment you worked as an ambulance driver at the hospital.  As the

12     ambulance driver, you attended the premises of the Crisis Staff in

13     Prijedor; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You went there to obtain certificates for petrol; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And these certificates that you obtained at the Crisis Staff,

18     they were approved and signed by a person called Slobodan Kuruzovic;

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember.

21        Q.   The Crisis Staff was located in Cirkin Polje in your

22     neighbourhood; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And there was even a sign on the door of the building saying

25     "Crisis Staff"; correct?

Page 35631

 1        A.   I don't remember that at all.

 2        Q.   At the hospital where you worked, that hospital was the biggest

 3     medical institution in Prijedor; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   It was an important part of the community, and many patients were

 6     treated there.  Only those with complex cases were transferred to

 7     Banja Luka or Zagreb or Belgrade; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Among the medical staff who worked at the hospital, were people

10     who have different ethnic backgrounds --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a problem with the sound -- yes,

12     now it's better.  I saw that your microphone was switched on but

13     nevertheless it didn't reach us.

14             Could you restart your last question, where you started with "...

15     among the medical staff ..."

16             MR. ZEC:

17        Q.   Among the medical staff at the hospital, there were people who

18     had different ethnic backgrounds.  For instance, Dr. Risto Stojanovic,

19     [sic] who was a Macedonian, Dr. Zeljko Sikora had a Czech --

20        A.   Correction, not Stojanovic.  Stojanovski.  He was a specialist, a

21     urologist.  A Macedonian, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you for that.  And there was also Dr. Zeljko Sikora, and he

23     had Czech background; correct?

24        A.   He was my neighbour.  He lived some 300 to 400 away from me in

25     his house.  As far as I know, he was not a Czech.  They were Catholics.

Page 35632

 1     We called them Pemci.

 2        Q.   Let me show you quickly one article about doctors at the

 3     hospital.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 32611.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, could you tell us, was

 6     Dr. Stojanovski, was he urologist or neurologist?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Urologist.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZEC:

10        Q.   So this is an article from Kozarski Vjesnik from 1991.  So that's

11     before the war.  And it talks about the achievements of seven doctors.

12             MR. ZEC:  And in the B/C/S, we need the article at the bottom.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we have a translation?

14             MR. ZEC:  My apologies.  It seems that the translation is not

15     ready, so if I'm allowed I can maybe ask the witness to help us.  I'll be

16     focusing very narrow portion of the article, so maybe the witness can

17     read us two sentences.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that Mr. Lukic will be able to follow

19     whether any quote or any question relates to the text.

20             Could it be enlarged, the portion you're reading from, so that

21     Mr. Lukic is able to read it on the screen as well.

22             MR. ZEC:  So we need the article at the bottom of the page.

23        Q.   So basically, Mr. Dragojevic, article talks about achievements of

24     some of the doctors.  And you see their photographs.  You see their

25     names.  The first photo is Dr. Risto Stojanovski that we already talked

Page 35633

 1     about.  So these people, these doctors, they worked at the hospital;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Dr. Esad Sadikovic is mentioned here.

 5             MR. ZEC:  And if we can focus to the portion of the article that

 6     talks about Dr. Esad Sadikovic.  It should be middle part of the article.

 7        Q.   And it says there that he was born in Nis.  Nis, that's Serbia;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I don't know where he was born.  I only know that he was an ENT

10     specialist.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether Nis is in Serbia.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether Nis is in Serbia?  Of

13     course Nis is in Serbia.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. ZEC:

16        Q.   And Dr. Sadikovic, he was a Muslim; correct?

17        A.   Well, that's how he declared himself, I suppose.  Yes, for sure.

18        Q.   His wife was a Serb; correct?

19        A.   Yes, she was.  I know that.

20             MR. ZEC:  If we can now look at the text before the photograph of

21     Dr. Esad Sadikovic.

22        Q.   And in the text below, it talks about him.  I would like you to

23     read two last sentences from this portion.  So do you see the photo of

24     Dr. Sadikovic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35634

 1        Q.   Below that, do you see the part -- there it says

 2     "Yugoslavia ..."?

 3        A.   "This probably the youngest doctor in Yugoslavia is the head

 4     of" --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is reading too fast.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you read more slowly, otherwise the

 7     interpreters have difficulties in following you.

 8             Could you restart where you read and then slowly, that this is

 9     probably the youngest doctor.  Could you restart from there.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "This probably youngest specialist

11     in Yugoslavia is a specialist and the head of the ENT department.  Since

12     1985, he was the president of the Association of ENT Specialists.  He

13     asserted his professionalism as a operative expert in the development

14     programme of the United Nations.  Now he is a candidate for the World

15     Health Organisation expert."

16             MR. ZEC:

17        Q.   Thank you.  And these were some of the achievements accomplished

18     by the medical staff of the Prijedor hospital, such as Dr. Sadikovic;

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   These doctors, they were prominent members of the community;

22     correct?

23        A.   Those two didn't -- were not.  They worked in Bosanski Novi.

24        Q.   But they worked in the Prijedor hospital, so they were well known

25     people in the community; correct?  Regardless where they were coming

Page 35635

 1     from.

 2        A.   Slavko and Srpko Vujanovic worked in Bosanski Novi.  Not in the

 3     Prijedor hospital, you see?  Dr. Rezo Sadikovic [phoen], Dr. Zivko Dukic,

 4     Dr. Arif Bahtijaragic worked in Prijedor.  The last was the head of

 5     radiology, Dr. Tomislav Alenko [phoen], who was a specialist, a

 6     neuropsychiatrist, and then he obtained a subspecialty.  And

 7     Dr. Stojanovski also worked in Prijedor.

 8        Q.   And these people that you just talked about, they were prominent

 9     members of the community; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Following the Serb take-over of Prijedor, the non-Serb medical

12     staff of the hospital were arrested and taken to places such as Keraterm,

13     Omarska, Manjaca.  Were you aware of that, Mr. Dragojevic?

14        A.   At a hospital?  No, I'm not aware of that.  I don't know of

15     anybody having been arrested at the hospital and taken from there

16     somewhere else.

17        Q.   Dr. Sadikovic, he was killed at Omarska.  His remains were

18     exhumed after the war from a mass grave called Hrastova Glavica.

19     Dr. Zeljko Sikora, he was killed at Omarska.  His remains were exhumed

20     from Sekovaca [phoen] grave.  So were you aware, Mr. Dragojevic, that

21     non-Serb intellectuals of Prijedor, such as the two doctors that I just

22     mentioned, were detained and killed?  Were you aware of that?

23        A.   No, I was not aware of that at all.  When all that was happening,

24     I was not in Prijedor.

25        Q.   You told us today that Dr. Osman Mahmuljin stayed at the

Page 35636

 1     hospital.  So did you also know that Dr. Mahmuljin was dismissed from the

 2     hospital, he was taken to Omarska, and he was also killed at Omarska?

 3     Did you know that?

 4        A.   I repeat:  All that happened after the 30th and I was no longer

 5     in Prijedor.

 6             And let me tell you something else about Osman Mahmuljin.  He was

 7     like a brother to me.  He gave me a Zippo lighter which I still have.

 8     Two days before those things happened in Prijedor, we were sitting at a

 9     terras in town.  We were having cups of coffee.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one says that you had a bad relationship

11     with that doctor.  The question was whether you were aware that he was

12     taken to Omarska and killed.  And I think you've answered that question,

13     that you --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know because I was not

15     there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. ZEC:

18        Q.   Mr. --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you told us quite a few things what had

20     happened, what you found out later what had happened during your absence,

21     but I do understand that you never heard about this doctor which you

22     describe as someone who was like a brother to you, that he was detained

23     and killed.  You never learned that, did you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did learn all that

25     when I returned.  I heard that Esad Sadikovic and Dr. Osman Mahmuljin

Page 35637

 1     faired badly.  Even Dr. Vegic who tended to my wounds and gave me first

 2     aid.  I don't know how, when, where.  I don't know any details.  There

 3     was nobody who could give me any details, so I never learned the details

 4     of their fates.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But you did learn their fate even not knowing the

 6     details, is that true?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  When I returned from the

 8     military hospital, I learned what had happened to them.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I earlier asked you whether you learned

10     anything about those doctors, and then -- but let me just try to find it

11     for a second.

12             I asked you:

13             "Did you learn at any point in time later that some doctors may

14     not have been able to continue to work and perhaps even were facing a bad

15     fate?"

16             And a few lines further down:

17             "Do I understand that you never learned that doctors, for

18     example, were detained or even killed?"

19             And then you said:

20             "Do understand that on the 30th of May when I was injured, all of

21     these doctors were working."

22             Then I said to you:

23             "I wasn't asking whether they were working on the 30th of May.  I

24     was asking whether you learned at a later stage whether you learned that

25     doctors, for example, were detained or even were killed."

Page 35638

 1             And then you said.

 2             "I heard that certain doctors stopped working there.  And what

 3     happened to them, whether they were killed, whether they went abroad,

 4     well, like ..." And then you gave a few examples that do not refer to any

 5     doctor being detained or killed.

 6             Then I said again:

 7             "I was not asking you whether there were some doctors working,

 8     but I'm asking you whether you ever learned or heard that doctors were

 9     detained or killed."

10             And then you said:

11             "No."

12             And now, half an hour later, you tell us that you heard about the

13     killing of doctors.  That is inconsistent testimony, and I urged you to

14     answer my questions, again and again and again, and you wanted to tell us

15     about all the good things that happened to doctors and all that you

16     didn't know.  And now half an hour later, you're telling Mr. Zec that you

17     learned about the bad fate of those doctors.

18             I should warn you that you should think over well before you

19     answer a question.

20             Mr. Zec, next question please.

21             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I see we are on break time.  If I may,

22     one more question.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

24             MR. ZEC:

25        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, would you agree, would you not, that this

Page 35639

 1     targeting of prominent individuals, such as Dr. Sadikovic, who was

 2     medical expert for the UN, his detention in terrifying conditions of

 3     Omarska, his killing would have a devastating effect on remaining

 4     non-Serb population of Prijedor?  Would you agree?

 5        A.   Of course.  Everything that was inhumane towards anyone had a

 6     horrifying effect on the rest of the population.

 7             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would tender the article that we have

 8     on the screen, 65 ter 32611.  And I understand a translation is pending,

 9     so we'll provide that as soon as possible.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Your Honours, the number to be signed will be.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P7387, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

13             We take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.  The

14     witness may follow the usher.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar, the number was not recorded.  Can

16     you repeat it, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P7387.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dragojevic, we'll continue.  Would you please

24     carefully listen to the questions and focus your answers on what is asked

25     rather than other things.

Page 35640

 1             Mr. Zec, you may proceed.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, in 2003 you testified in the case of

 4     Milomir Stakic as a Defence witness; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I presume it is your evidence that you told the truth in that

 7     case; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So now I will now turn your attention to the evidence that you

10     provided this morning about your trip towards Kozarac, and you said that

11     you reached the place called Susici, and this morning you said it was

12     24 May 1992.

13             In Stakic proceedings when you were asked about this same event,

14     you said that you can't remember the exact date.  It could be either

15     24th or 25th May, 1992.  So do you allow the possibility that it could be

16     either one of these two days that you went towards Kozarac?

17        A.   Yes.  Either the 24th or the 25th.  I don't know exactly

18     precisely, but I know it was roughly around that time.

19        Q.   So just that we are clear on what happened that day, basically

20     you went towards Kozarac, you passed by a place called Kozarusa, and you

21     stopped in a place called Susici; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, in Susici exactly where the bus station is, and then there

23     was an awning there for buses.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, when you put to the witness that he said

25     that it was on the 24th, the witness said that he thinks it was but he

Page 35641

 1     couldn't tell the exact date.  So could you please be very accurate in --

 2     that's page 8, line 12 and 13.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   And just that we are clear, Susici, that's a small place outside

 6     Kozarac town.  Is that about right?

 7        A.   It's on the main road between Prijedor and Banja Luka, before

 8     Kozarac.  A few kilometres before Kozarac.

 9        Q.   At the time in Susici there was a separation of non-Serb

10     population of Kozarac.  Men were separated and taken to Keraterm, women

11     and children were taken towards Prijedor.  So were you aware at the time

12     that this separation was taking place in Susici?  Yes?

13        A.   No, no.  I was not aware of this separation.  I was told and I

14     assumed and people were saying that they were taking them to the stadium

15     and to in front of the hall.

16        Q.   But they also talking that men were taken to Keraterm?

17        A.   Well, sorry, I couldn't really talk to anyone because I did not

18     have the right to do so.  Only with my colleague, the technician.  We

19     were standing next to each other.  Who am I to be able to ask someone

20     what's going on here?

21        Q.   Well, let me show you a statement of a colleague of yours from

22     Kozarac.

23             MR. ZEC:  If we can have 65 ter 31732.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And while we are waiting for that --

25             Witness, if you are able to tell us where they were taken, and

Page 35642

 1     now you tell us that you were not able to talk to them and therefore you

 2     couldn't know whether there was any separation, it's a bit inconsistent

 3     to tell us, on the one hand side, that they were taken to the stadium and

 4     that nothing happened to them, et cetera; and on the other hand side,

 5     well, if you asked me whether they were taken to Keraterm, well, of

 6     course, how could I know because I couldn't talk to them.  That's not

 7     fully consistent.  I leave it to that.

 8             And please wait for the next question by Mr. Zec.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you may, briefly.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My task was as follows:  People who

12     were frail, that I should drive them to the hospital, and what was being

13     said was that those people were being taken -- do allow me to say this.

14     These people were going down there.  I didn't only drive people to the

15     hospital.  Also to the building next to the stadium.  Mr. Refko

16     Kapetanovic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us what happened to those people.  You

18     didn't say:  "The few I transported, I took them there," but you gave a

19     far broader statement.  And now, asked about Keraterm, you say:  "How

20     could I possibly, I couldn't talk to them."

21             That is what I pointed at.  And carefully listen to the next

22     question that Mr. Zec will put to you.

23             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, on the screen in front of you is a witness

25     statement of your colleague, an ambulance driver from Kozarac.  His name

Page 35643

 1     is Dian Menkovic.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Can we have page 3 in both languages, focusing in the

 3     paragraph in the middle of the page.  It says in the middle of the

 4     paragraph:

 5             "On 24 May 1992 the shelling of Kozarac started.  Many people

 6     sought refuge in the basement of dump trucks and says that many injured

 7     people were brought to the medical centre."

 8             And in the paragraph below, he says:

 9             "The following day a man came to our house and told us that

10     people were gathering close to the bank in Kozarac.  I advised my family

11     to do the same, and when we arrived about 2.000 people were already

12     assembled.  A truck and the ambulance which I used were brought to the

13     spot with injured people.  We were directed to the village of Susici and

14     a separation was carried out.  The men were put in one group and the

15     women and children in another.  Next to or inside the house of Causevic,

16     Suljo, 10 - 15 men were killed."

17             And then explains that two other men were taken away.

18             A few lines below:

19             "Approximately 20 buses arrived and the men were taken to

20     Keraterm and the women and children were taken in the direction of

21     Prijedor."

22             So, Mr. Dragojevic, I understand that you took some of these

23     civilians towards Prijedor; that's right, correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Were you aware that people were executed at the time?

Page 35644

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   I think you already answered, but these men were taken to

 3     Keraterm.  Are you still claiming you have not any knowledge about it?

 4     And men were taken to Keraterm, to be more precise.

 5        A.   I have no knowledge about these people being driven to Keraterm

 6     or whatever else you said, Omarska, et cetera.  I certainly have no

 7     knowledge of that.

 8             Another thing, this gentleman, Mr. Menkovic --

 9        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, Keraterm is in your neighbourhood where you lived

10     and worked.  Did you see or hear people being brought there during this

11     period of time, yes?

12        A.   Sir, I see that you're not familiar with this.  Keraterm is not

13     in the neighbourhood where I live.  I live close to the hospital,

14     50 metres away, and Keraterm, to the best of my knowledge, was on the

15     road between Prijedor and Kozarac.  Right by the road.  That is a

16     kilometre or two or three away from my house.  I never went in there, and

17     I don't know the existence of Keraterm at that time when I was in Susici

18     and afterwards until I was wounded.

19        Q.   And with respect to the these civilians that you took to

20     Prijedor, they were held in sports hall.  And I understand from your

21     testimony this morning that you don't know what happened to them after;

22     right?

23        A.   Sorry, but you keep putting words into my mouth.  I did not drive

24     people to the hall, see?  I took people to the hospital, and I only drove

25     Mr. Refko Kapetanovic to this area Pecani near the stadium to his wife's

Page 35645

 1     brother's apartment.  I didn't take anyone to the stadium or I didn't

 2     take them to the place in front of the hall.  I was in an ambulance.  I

 3     had no access.  Whoever they say that I should take out of these people

 4     who were standing there, that I should take to the hospital, I did, and

 5     then this Mr. Menkovic --

 6        Q.   Mr. Dragojevic, I think you answered my question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I have, however, another question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier said that none of the civilians were

10     killed then in Susici.  We've seen the statement of Mr. Menkovic, who

11     says persons were killed.  First question, were you there all the time or

12     did you intend to say that you did not see any civilian being killed

13     there?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Menkovic is

15     referring to Susici, and I - I - was on the road, the road, the road.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I read again the portion of your evidence

17     given today.  You said:

18             "What I stated in Susici was that none of the civilians were

19     killed then."

20             That's a clear reference to Susici.  My question to you was were

21     you there all the time, or did you intend to say that you have not seen

22     any civilian that was killed there?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was going and coming, none

24     of the civilians on that road in Susici at the bus station there, none of

25     them were killed.

Page 35646

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Although, when you were further away it may have

 2     happened but you wouldn't have seen it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, what could happen while I go

 4     all the way to Prijedor and come back, that I don't know.  I didn't see

 5     any of that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, earlier when you said that none of

 7     the civilians were killed then, what you intended to say - and that's

 8     different - is that you did not see or observe any civilian being killed

 9     then?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  I did not see any

11     of that.  I did not observe any of that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

13             Now you wanted to say something about Mr. Menkovic.  Could you

14     please tell us what you wanted to say about him?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Menkovic was an ambulance

16     driver.  Mr. Menkovic had a white flag and he was in front, in front of

17     that column that was moving along the main road to Susici.  And I did see

18     him.  He was carrying the white flag.  Now, what happened afterwards I

19     don't know at all, but I do know that he was carrying a white flag.  I

20     know him as a driver.

21             But, Your Honour, he mentions the place Susici.  Susici was on

22     the left and right of the road, whereas we were standing on the road, the

23     motorway between Banja Luka and Prijedor.  We didn't go into villages and

24     towns.  Please don't misinterpret any of this.  This column was moving

25     along the main road, and that's where the buses were --

Page 35647

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you have any specific reason, any fact

 2     to your knowledge, which would demonstrate that what Mr. Menkovic is

 3     saying, especially about persons being killed, would not be true?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I was not with him.  I cannot

 5     say, no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Dragojevic, you told the Chamber in Stakic case that in

10     the period up to the end of May 1992, you were not mobilised and you

11     worked as a civilian driver of a civilian ambulance until you were

12     wounded.  Do you stand by this testimony?

13        A.   Not to the end of May, as you said.  I fell victim on the 30th of

14     May.  I worked all the time when I returned from Slavonia.  Up until the

15     30th of May, I worked as an ambulance driver in civilian uniform, white

16     coat, and I had a red cross on my left sleeve.

17        Q.   And you were not mobilised?  After Croatia you were demobilised

18     and you were not mobilised until you were wounded.  That's your evidence,

19     right?

20        A.   That was like work obligation.  Do understand that.  I was

21     demobilised and then I worked in the hospital and that was work

22     obligation.  I came to work and went back and we worked in shifts, of

23     course.

24        Q.   I will read to you what Mr. Lukic asked you in 2003 in the Stakic

25     case.  The question was:

Page 35648

 1             "Up to the end of May 1992, were you mobilised again?"

 2             Your answer was:

 3             "No."

 4             So I'm asking you again, is this correct what you told the

 5     Chamber in Stakic case, yes or no?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I was not mobilised.

 7        Q.   You say in your statement that you are now retired as a disabled

 8     war veteran.  So you did have a military assignment at the time, did you?

 9        A.   Not as a veteran.  You got that wrong.  As a disabled person

10     after the war.

11             Do you understand what work obligation is?  I was dismissed from

12     the military, returned from Slavonia, but I did have work obligation to

13     work in my own work organisation, work unit where I worked before the

14     war.

15        Q.   Just to be clear, I'll read to you one more portion of -- that's

16     actually next question was from Mr. Lukic in 2003.  He said:

17             "Throughout all that time you worked as a civilian driver of a

18     civilian ambulance?"

19             Your answer is:

20             "Yes."

21             So is this correct what you told to the Chamber in Stakic case,

22     yes or no?

23        A.   Yes, civilian.  It wasn't a military ambulance.  It was a

24     civilian ambulance of the Prijedor general hospital.

25        Q.   While you were in Belgrade for your treatment, have you heard of

Page 35649

 1     a fund called Captain Dragan Fund?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And the Captain Dragan Fund, just so that we are clear, that was

 4     run by a man called Dragan Vasiljkovic, and his fund provided support for

 5     wounded Serb soldiers; correct?

 6        A.   I heard that.

 7        Q.   And just that we are clear about who Captain Dragan is,

 8     Captain Dragan is Dragan Vasiljkovic who was a Serb warrior and who

 9     established a training camp in Golubic near Knin in 1991 to train Serb

10     soldiers; is this correct?

11        A.   I don't know.  I don't know that.

12        Q.   Do you remember making an application or receiving support from

13     this fund during your treatment in Belgrade?

14        A.   I did not make any applications.  However, when I was in

15     hospital, many associations came to visit us.  I don't even know who.

16     They brought cookies and biscuits and this and that and the other.  Maybe

17     somebody came from his association as well, but I personally don't know

18     that.  No.

19        Q.   I'm going to show you your application for the Captain Dragan

20     Fund.

21             MR. ZEC:  And if we can have 65 ter 31715.

22        Q.   And if look over this first page, over your personal details, can

23     you confirm for us that the information is accurate?

24        A.   Yes.  But this is not my signature.  I did not write that.  Look

25     at my handwriting.  This is not my signature.  Especially at the time, I

Page 35650

 1     could not even --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you wait for the next question.

 3             Mr. Zec.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Then who you say provided this information for this application?

 6     I understand you didn't write yourself, you didn't sign it, but who put

 7     this information on this application form; do you remember?

 8        A.   I don't remember at all.  You have to remember that -- you have

 9     to understand that I didn't know anything about myself or anything else

10     for six months.  This is nonsense.  I did not even know that I was alive.

11     I was fighting for my life.  There was no way I could provide anybody

12     with any information.  Perhaps there was a service there that did that

13     when people arrived, but not me.  No.

14        Q.   So you said that people from various associations came to the

15     hospital.  Do you remember Captain Dragan Association people coming to

16     the hospital asking you questions, such as your personal details?

17        A.   No.  Nobody asked me anything.  It was only later when I came to,

18     when I was able to speak about a month and a half later.  Then the

19     service affiliated with the military hospital took my medical history,

20     asked me if I had suffered from any illnesses, if I had had any

21     surgeries, and things like that.  I don't know about this.  Anybody could

22     get hold of my personal details.

23        Q.   Let's look the entry number 7.  It says:  "Contact with family,"

24     and the answer is "Yes."

25             So while you were in Belgrade, you were in contact with your

Page 35651

 1     family in Prijedor, yes?  Just yes or no.

 2        A.   After -- no.  Because two months later my family did come to

 3     Belgrade to live there.  My wife is from Serbia and she brought two

 4     children with her, and there was no need for me -- I'm telling you only

 5     one time they called, perhaps 30 or 40 days later, to inquire, and a

 6     nurse came and said "Somebody called you from Prijedor inquiring about

 7     you."  My wife and children arrived when the corridor was opened and when

 8     people could pass.  She came to live with her family in Veliko Gradiste,

 9     Pozarica [phoen] so all the time while I was hospitalised in the military

10     hospital, she was there.

11        Q.   This document is dated 24 July 1992.  You were wounded on

12     30th May 1992, and then you were transported to Belgrade, Belgrade for

13     your treatment.  So in this period during June and July 1992, you were in

14     contact with your family in Prijedor; right?

15        A.   No.

16             MR. ZEC:  Can we see page 2 in both languages.

17        Q.   On this page there is a section number 2 or 3.  It says:

18     "Information on wounding."  If you look item number 1, below, to the

19     right, it says "Date and place of joining unit, unit name, unit

20     commander, and duty in unit."

21             The response is to the left, and it says:

22             "1st time:  16 September 1991, Prijedor.

23             "2nd time:  20 May 1992 Prijedor.

24             "Medical Company Commander Major Zeljko Maluka."

25             So, Mr. Dragojevic, contrary to your statement that you were not

Page 35652

 1     mobilised, we see here, in fact, that you were mobilised on 20 May 1992;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   On 20 May 1992?  Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know how to address you,

 4     I told you something:  When I returned from Slavonia, there was a thing

 5     called work obligation.  Do you know what that means, work obligation?

 6     Those people who were not militarily engaged on the front line had to

 7     report to their companies and they were placed on work obligation.

 8     People were couriers, guards, things like that.  You have to understand

 9     that.  You had to do something, so I was under work obligation.

10             You should make a distinction between two things:  War

11     assignment, my war assignment was in Slavonia.  I went there with the

12     medical unit to Bijele Stijene, and then when I returned I was under work

13     obligation but Dr. Zeljko Matsura, not Maluka, but Matsura, he was chief

14     of medical unit, and I was still registered with that unit as a person

15     under work obligation.  I had to drive people who were wounded because

16     I'm -- drivers of other ethnic backgrounds no longer wanted to do the

17     job.  I had to do it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to clarify this.  Mr. Zec puts to you that

19     you were still a member of the armed forces because you were joining a

20     unit on the 20th of May, and you're telling us that your assignment when

21     being a member of that unit was that you had to transport and you were

22     not assigned a combat task but that you were assigned to do driving

23     services.  That, apparently, is the issue.  And unless there is anything

24     more about it, we could go on for ages, the witness saying it was a work

25     obligation and you saying you were part of a unit.  The one doesn't

Page 35653

 1     necessarily contradict the other.

 2             Let's move on, unless there is any specific matter which would

 3     make this so important that we should go through the deepest bottom of

 4     the issue.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The witness clarified that

 6     he relates to work obligation, the starting point that he was a civilian

 7     driving a civilian ambulance, but I take the point.  I won't push this

 8     issue anymore.  I would simply tender the document into evidence and I

 9     don't have any further questions.

10             Thank you.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 31715 will be Exhibit P7388, Your

14     Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Lukic, any further questions for the witness?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before Mr. Lukic goes.

18             Mr. Zec, are you not tendering 31732?

19             MR. ZEC:  My understanding, Your Honours, it's ICTY statement.

20     So my understanding it's not admissible in these proceedings.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you. [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             MR. ZEC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... so that's why I didn't --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not tendering it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You just put to that statement that a statement by

25     that other person is unknown and you do not tender it.

Page 35654

 1             MR. ZEC:  Correct and there's [indiscernible].

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I will have just a couple of questions but my client

 5     wants to leave the courtroom for just a short period of time.  So

 6     maybe --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But would we take a short break then so that he can

 8     follow the whole of the re-examination?  Then, in that case, we would

 9     like to know how much time we would pause.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe five, six minutes.  But he has urgently to

11     leave the courtroom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay, but that's -- okay.  We'll take a very,

13     very, short break.  That's 5 minutes, if that would do.

14             And then, Mr. Lukic, if possible, if we could -- if you would be

15     able then to conclude the evidence before the next ordinary break, and

16     after that, we'll deal with a few housekeeping matters.

17             We take a break of five minutes.

18                           --- Break taken at 12.57 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Dragojevic.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   On today's transcript, page 43, line 7, my learned friend Mr. Zec

25     asked you about the Crisis Staff in Cirkin Polje.  Was the Crisis Staff

Page 35655

 1     seated in the municipal building in Prijedor, in the Prijedor town hall?

 2        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

 3        Q.   What was in Cirkin Polje then?  Was it a logistics base or a

 4     Crisis Staff?

 5        A.   Let me tell you this:  I don't know any of those details.  I only

 6     know that we went up there to get those certificates, which we needed to

 7     refuel our vehicles to take patients to Banja Luka and further on.  As

 8     for the rest, neither myself nor my colleagues needed to go there.  We

 9     did not need to communicate with them.  The only occasion when we went up

10     there was when we had to travel to Banja Luka.  We got a token or

11     something from them that we had to show at petrol station in order to

12     refuel the vehicle so that we could drive our patients to Banja Luka.

13     That was that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In Mr. Menkovic's statement that was shown to you,

15     65 ter 3172, it says that he arrived in Omarska on the 27th May --

16             MR. ZEC:  I would object.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec.

18             MR. ZEC:  I would object on this point.  The issue of the

19     statement that was put to the witness, very narrow issue, now we're going

20     to the whole new topic of Omarska which I didn't --

21             MR. LUKIC:  But we challenged the statement.  The whole statement

22     we challenged.

23             MR. ZEC:  Yeah, but that was not the issue that was brought in

24     cross-examination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The statement is not --

Page 35656

 1             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... it's not the evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in evidence.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  But it is shown to this witness with some claims.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there is only one small portion put to this

 5     witness.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may not have any knowledge about the

 8     remainder of the statement.  We asked the witness whether on the small

 9     portion that was put to him whether there were any facts to his knowledge

10     which would cast doubt as to the veracity, the truthfulness of that

11     portion of the statement, and that is what was presented in

12     cross-examination.  But let me just -- one second.  And that's why you

13     should limit yourself in re-examination on that specific matter.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] You were shown a statement by Mr. Menkovic, your

16     former colleague.  He claims the following:  By the house or in

17     Suljo Causevic's house, some 10 to 15 men were killed.  Did you know

18     where Suljo Causevic's house was first and foremost?

19        A.   I don't know where that house is.  I told you that we were

20     standing on the road.  We did not turn off --

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  I just asked you about the house and

22     whether you knew where it was.

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Did you drive men from Susica?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 35657

 1        Q.   Did you see men getting on the buses together with women?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you see dead people lying around when you entered and left

 4     Susica?

 5        A.   No, I didn't see anybody.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at P7388.  You were told that the

 7     document was provided by Captain Dragan's foundation, Captain Dragan

 8     standing for Dragan Vasiljkovic.  We don't actually see that on the

 9     document but that's what we heard in the courtroom.

10             Let me first ask you this.  On 24 July, how were you feeling?

11        A.   I was in a bad condition.  I had a surgery every couple of days,

12     and I was in the intensive care all the time.

13        Q.   In our parts, when you're in intensive care, can people visit you

14     as they wish or is that a sterile room?

15        A.   This is a sterile room.  Only authorised personal in appropriate

16     clothes could enter.  I did not have a piece of clothing on my body.  I

17     just had a piece of cloth on my genitals.  And the rest of my body was

18     exposed.  There were wounds that leaked and they were left like that.

19        Q.   In the intensive care, did you remember anybody visiting you and

20     interviewing you?

21        A.   No, no, I don't.  Nobody could enter the intensive care unit.

22     The first time I ever saw somebody was perhaps a year later.  I was in a

23     normal room on Ward 13.  I had a separate, sterile apartment, and people

24     could not enter at their own will.  My wounds were still open.  I had an

25     infection called osteomyelitis.  Not everybody could enter my room and

Page 35658

 1     see me.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at page 3 in this document.  I'm

 3     interested in paragraph under Roman numeral IV.  At the bottom of the

 4     document, we can see that the date is 24 July 1992.  Above that, next to

 5     the date 24 July 1992, we also see 6 of May 1993 and 19 July 1993.

 6        A.   So what are you asking me?

 7        Q.   Do you --

 8        A.   Let me tell you something if people don't know about that.  At

 9     the military hospital, I was first admitted at one department.  Then when

10     I needed to undergo plastic surgery, I was moved there.  Then pulmonology

11     when I suffered a lung embolism, then I was transferred to another

12     department.  That's the kind of a hospital it is.  And every time I was

13     discharged from a department, I would be provided with a discharge

14     letter.  Whenever my treatment at a department was completed, I would be

15     provided with a discharge letter, I would be transferred to another

16     department where other interventions were planned and I had to undergo

17     those.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about your contacts with your family,

19     and on line 2 here it says the wife and children are refugees.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Once then, can you tell us where your wife and children were as

22     refugees?

23        A.   They remained in Prijedor, and it was only after a certain while

24     when the corridor was opened and when that happened, I only learned it

25     later, they arrived in Belgrade.  They spent three or four nights at

Page 35659

 1     Sabiha Beslagic's house, she is a good friend of mine.  And from there,

 2     my wife went to Pribrode, in Veliko Gradiste to reside with her parents.

 3     She spent 18 months there.  My children completed some of their education

 4     there.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm afraid we are losing ourselves in

 6     details which are hardly of any relevance.  That's what I think the

 7     Defence started to do, then the Prosecution followed up, and they could

 8     have perhaps better not done that, and now we are going into further

 9     details.

10             It's all about whether this witness was a member of the armed

11     forces when he was shot at when driving an ambulance.

12             Now, shooting at ambulances, whether they are civilian or

13     military, shouldn't happen.  Now whether then, and that's not the core of

14     the issue, it was a civilian ambulance, apparently, that's what we hear

15     from the witness, whether it was driven by someone who was a member of

16     the armed forces on work assignment or whether it was a civilian driver,

17     I think you want to establish that these kind of things - that is,

18     shooting at ambulances - took place.

19             Now, what the relevance is to know exactly whether this witness

20     ended up in that ambulance as a consequence of a work obligation,

21     although being a member of the armed forces, or whether he was there as a

22     military man driving civilian casualties, that seems not really to be the

23     essence of what you want to tell us.  Again, you started with it,

24     Prosecution was not wise enough to leave it in some -- to leave out some

25     details, and now we are seeking even further details.

Page 35660

 1             Could you please consider whether this is all necessary to send

 2     the message to this Court as I at least, and I think my colleague

 3     understand, you want to send it to us.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honour, I just

 5     considered it, and I don't have any further questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's too quick a result for my

 7     observations, Mr. Lukic.

 8             Any further questions, Mr. Zec?

 9             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench also has no further questions for

11     you, Witness, this concludes your evidence in that Court.  I'd like to

12     thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and having

13     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

14     this Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank you, too.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I have quite a few items on my court agenda, that is

21     short decisions, but in total six pages, and sometimes we might need the

22     input of the parties.  So under those circumstances, I would suggest that

23     we take a break.  But there is another option, that we would continue.  I

24     do not know whether Mr. Mladic wants to attend.

25             And, again, I have nine issues to raise and it's all the type of

Page 35661

 1     housekeeping matters, admission of documents, invitations for further

 2     submissions, et cetera.  It's all that kind of stuff.  And if Mr. Mladic

 3     would prefer not to attend, of course he's fully entitled to, then it

 4     would not come as a surprise and it would be totally understood.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic is willing to continue immediately and he

 6     will be with us while you are reading the decisions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then six pages of reading but then we still

 8     might have an early adjournment today.

 9             I'll then start with the first one, which is related to P7183.

10             On the 3rd of March of this year, the Chamber marked for

11     identification P7183, given Milivoje Simic's testimony that he did not

12     recognise his signature.  The following day the Prosecution informed the

13     Chamber that the issue was being looked into by CLSS.  This can be found

14     at transcript pages 32562 to -563 and 32599.

15             On the 10th of March, the Prosecution informed the Chamber via

16     e-mail that it had received a revised English translation of the document

17     and that this revised translation indicates that the document was, and I

18     quote, signed "for Milivoje Simic."  This translation has been uploaded

19     into e-court under document ID number 0343-7439-1 ET, and the Prosecution

20     states that the Defence was provided a hard copy of the same on the

21     5th of March.

22             Unless there is any problem with it, Mr. Lukic.  Apparently there

23     is not.

24             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the English

25     translation of P7183 with the document uploaded under document

Page 35662

 1     ID 0343-7439-1 ET, and hereby admits P7183 into evidence.

 2             Next item is an issue remaining from the testimony of

 3     Grujo Boric.

 4             Exhibit P520 was used during the testimony of Grujo Boric on the

 5     22nd and 23rd of April, 2015, and it appeared that the stamp on page 2

 6     was not translated into English.

 7             On the 1st of May, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and the

 8     Defence, via e-mail, that a revised English translation had been uploaded

 9     into e-court under doc ID 0048-9864 ET.  The Chamber hereby instructs the

10     Registry to replace the current translation of P520 with the revised

11     translation of which I just mentioned the number.

12             Still in relation to the testimony of Grujo Boric, P7337.

13             During the testimony of this witness on the 23rd of April 2015,

14     P7337 was marked for identification pending the B/C/S translation.

15             On the 1st of May, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the

16     Defence and advised that the translation had been uploaded into e-court

17     under doc ID R000-4825-BCST.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry

18     to attach the translation and hereby admits P7337 into evidence.

19             Still in relation to the same witness, 65 ter 32447.

20             This document was used on the 23rd of April, 2015 during the

21     testimony of Grujo Boric.  It is a dispatch from the Main Staff military

22     prosecutor's office.

23             On the 28th of April, the Prosecution stated that it had

24     neglected to tender that document.  This can be found at transcript

25     page 34722.

Page 35663

 1             On the 30th of April, the Defence put on the record that it has

 2     no objection to this document being tendered.

 3             Madam Registrar -- or Mr. Registrar, I should say, it's an old

 4     draft.  Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 32447 would receive number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P7389, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is -- Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for interrupting.  I think it's been

 8     subsequently admitted as P7386.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could we immediately verify that with

10     Mr. Registrar, and I could have --

11             You are right, Mr. Traldi.  And I say this on the authority of my

12     colleague, Judge Moloto.

13             Therefore, the issue was moot, as a matter of fact, and I've

14     wasted time on dealing with it for which my apologies.

15             The next one, hoping that it doesn't have the same fate, is about

16     P7340.

17             During the testimony, still of Grujo Boric, on the 23rd of April,

18     P7340 was marked for identification pending the English translation.

19             On the 12th of May, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the

20     Defence and advised that a translation had been uploaded into e-court

21     under doc ID 0701-1876-ET.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to

22     attach the translation and admits P7340 into evidence.

23             Mr. Lukic, as always, if there's any issue with the newly

24     uploaded translations, you always have 48 hours to revisit the matter.

25             Last item in relation to still witness Grujo Boric and his

Page 35664

 1     testimony on the 23rd of April, 2015.

 2             Exhibit number P7344 was reserved for the document bearing 65 ter

 3     number 32449.  On the 23rd of April, the English translation was pending,

 4     and the Chamber invited the Prosecution to verify whether it was possible

 5     to work with an extract instead of the entire document.

 6             On the 1st of May, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the

 7     Defence that the translation had been uploaded into e-court under doc ID

 8     0214-6189-0-ET.

 9             On the 4th of May, the Prosecution requested, via an e-mail, that

10     the entire document be admitted.  The Chamber finds the full document to

11     be relevant and of probative value and therefore meets the requirements

12     of Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and the Chamber

13     hereby instructs the Registry to attach the translation and admits P7344

14     into evidence.

15             The next items relate to the testimony of Nedjo Vlaski.

16             During the testimony of this witness on the 5th of November,

17     2014, document D745 was marked for identification.  The Defence at that

18     time stated it would ask for admission when it was able to provide the

19     Prosecution with information about the origin of the document.  This can

20     be found at transcript page 27883.

21             The Chamber asked the Defence via an e-mail on the 25th of

22     November, 2014, and on the 2nd of March, 2015, whether it still intended

23     on seeking admission of this document.  As of today's date, the Defence

24     has not responded, and the Chamber hereby denies the admission of D745

25     without prejudice.  The Chamber gives the Defence one week to revisit

Page 35665

 1     this matter.

 2             Still in relation to the same witness, Nedjo Vlaski.

 3             On the 5th of November, 2014, the Chamber asked the parties for

 4     written submissions on D735 and D736 which both were marked for

 5     identification.  This can be found at transcript page 27888.

 6             As of today, the Chamber has not received these submissions and

 7     therefore sets a dead-line of one week for the Prosecution to make

 8     written submissions, to which the Defence will have the usual opportunity

 9     to respond.

10             I move on to a remaining issue in relation to another witness,

11     Vojo Kupresanin.

12             On the 11th of December 2014, D853 was marked for identification

13     pending an agreement between the parties as to the excerpt to be

14     tendered.  This can be found at transcript pages 29668 through -669.

15             On the 31st of March of this year, the Defence advised the

16     Chamber via e-mail that the proposed excerpt had been uploaded into

17     e-court under 65 ter number 1D02036a.  The Prosecution confirmed that

18     same day via an e-mail that it had no objection to MFI D853 being

19     replaced with this document and admitted into evidence.

20             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace MFI D853

21     with document bearing 65 ter number 1D02036a and admits D853 into

22     evidence.

23             Next item -- I should say items deal with the testimony of

24     Goran Krcmar.

25             On the 2nd of March of this year, D920 was marked for

Page 35666

 1     identification, pending a translation.

 2             On March the 10th, the Defence advised the Chamber via e-mail

 3     that the translation had been uploaded into e-court.

 4             On the 30th of March, the Prosecution indicated that it had no

 5     objection to the translation per se but it was unable to identify the

 6     point during Witness Krcmar's testimony when D920 was actually discussed.

 7     This can be found at transcript page 33849.

 8             The Prosecution made further submissions in this regard on the

 9     31st of March which can be found at transcript pages 33891 through -892.

10     In summary, the Prosecution doubted that document was used during the

11     course of Witness Krcmar's testimony.

12             On the 15th of April, the Defence advised the Chamber via e-mail

13     that it was withdrawing D920.

14             The Chamber hereby puts the Defence's withdrawal on the record

15     and marks D920 not admitted.

16             In relation to the same witness, on the 26th of February, 2015,

17     D917, a video, was marked for identification pending a selection of the

18     sequences by the Defence.

19             On the 15th of April, the Defence advised the Chamber and the

20     Prosecution via e-mail that copies of the excerpted video segments had

21     been provided to both the Registry and the Prosecution.

22             On the 11th of May, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via

23     e-mail that it did not object to the admission of the excerpted video

24     segments.

25             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the current

Page 35667

 1     version of the exhibit with the segments agreed upon between the parties

 2     and admits D917 into evidence.

 3             Before we continue, Mr. Registrar, is it clear what segments are

 4     hereby admitted?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  It is.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll move on with the next item.

 7             The next item is a remaining issue from the testimony of

 8     Milorad Pelemis.

 9             During the testimony of this witness on the 30th of March, 2015,

10     P7275 was marked for identification pending the B/C/S translation.

11             On the 1st of April, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and

12     Defence that the translation had been uploaded into e-court under doc

13     ID X024-2786-BCST.

14             The Chamber instructs the Registry to attach the translation and

15     admits P7275 into evidence.

16             I move on.  The next item is related to P3170.

17             In its decision on Prosecution's 30th motion to admit evidence

18     pursuant to Rule 92 bis, which decision was dated the 18th of December,

19     2013, the Chamber admitted into evidence redacted excerpts of the

20     transcript of Milan Tupajic in the Krajisnik case.  This document

21     received exhibit number P3170.

22             On the 17th of April, 2015, the Prosecution informed the Chamber

23     that Krajisnik transcript page 15375, which was included in the annex to

24     the Prosecution motion and accompanying chart, was not included in the

25     uploaded version of P3170 and uploaded a revised version of P3170 into

Page 35668

 1     e-court bearing 65 ter number 30579a.

 2             On the 20th of April, the Defence informed the Prosecution that

 3     it had no objection.

 4             The Trial Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace P3170

 5     by the newly uploaded document bearing 65 ter number 30579a.

 6             I'll now deal with four Defence documents, the documents being

 7     D767, D768, D769, and D896.

 8             During the testimony of Cedo Sipovac on the 12th of November of

 9     last year, the first three documents were marked for identification

10     pending translation and use with an upcoming witness.  These translation

11     issues were resolved on the 3rd and the 24th of February, 2015.

12             During the testimony of Rade Javoric on the 10th of February,

13     D896 was marked for identification, pending use with an upcoming witness.

14             On the 12th of March, Miso Rodic testified about all four

15     documents, especially about their origin and the way they should be

16     interpreted.  On the same day, the Defence requested their admission, to

17     which the Prosecution did not object.  This can be found at transcript

18     pages 33102 through -104.

19             The Chamber finds that D767, D769, and D896 are relevant and of

20     probative value and therefore admits them into evidence.

21             Also on the 12th of March, D768 remained marked for

22     identification to resolve the translation issue which arose during the

23     testimony of Rodic.  This can be found at transcript pages 33033

24     through -035.  The Chamber asked the Defence via e-mail on the 10th and

25     the 30th of April whether a new translation was available.  As of today's

Page 35669

 1     date, the Defence has not responded.

 2             Our question now is whether the Defence is now in a position to

 3     give an update on the progress of providing a revised translation?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, sorry, I have to check with my Case

 5     Manager.  I really cannot tell anything at this moment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We give you an opportunity to address the

 7     matter until the 22nd of May; that is, next week, Friday.

 8             There are a few remaining issues from the testimony of

 9     Witness Branko Basara.

10             During the testimony of this witness on the 21st of April, 2015,

11     P7321 was marked for identification pending the provision of a revised

12     translation and additional submissions concerning the document's

13     provenance.  The same day, the Prosecution notified the Chamber that the

14     revised translation had been uploaded under doc ID 0048-2658-ET.

15     However, the Chamber has not yet received any additional written

16     submissions on admission.

17             The Chamber therefore instructs Mr. Registrar to replace the

18     existing translation with the newly uploaded one and sets a dead-line of

19     one week from today for the Prosecution to make its written submissions

20     concerning the document's provenance, to which the Defence will have the

21     usual opportunity to respond.

22             On the 24th of April, the Prosecution notified the Chamber and

23     the Defence that it also intended to offer into evidence two other

24     documents through Witness Basara:  Document be bearing 65 ter number

25     27968a, for which Exhibit number P7322 was reserved; and document bearing

Page 35670

 1     65 ter number 31876a.  The Chamber invites the Prosecution to make its

 2     submission or requests for admission on the record at the earliest

 3     opportunity.

 4             I had no further items on my agenda.  The parties have no further

 5     issues to be raised.

 6             We adjourn for the day and we will resume Monday, the 18th of

 7     May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day

10                           of May, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.