Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35671

 1                           Monday, 18 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was one preliminary matter to

12     be raised by the Prosecution.

13             Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President, good morning.

15             Just to respond to and accept the Chamber's invitation at the end

16     of the hearing Thursday to put our requests for admission regarding

17     portions of Mr. Basara's previous statements on the record.  The

18     Prosecution asks that 65 ter 27968a, an excerpt from a record of Basara's

19     prior recorded interview, be admitted as P7322 which number has been

20     reserved for an excerpt from that interview.

21             The Prosecution also tenders 65 ter 31876a, an excerpt from

22     Mr. Basara's testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know what's the proper should be then, asked

25     to include what we want from those transcripts and interviews?

Page 35672

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want to add anything, of course then the

 2     question arises to what extent the portions you are seeking, whether they

 3     have been dealt with by the witness.  I mean, it's not just an extract

 4     coming out of the blue, but of course it's because attention has been

 5     paid or at least the matter has been covered.  But if you want to think

 6     about that.

 7             Mr. Traldi, I take it that you'll give Mr. Lukic sufficient time

 8     to consider it.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Of course, Mr. President.  And I've just been

10     reminded that the specific pages that we used and the transcript pages on

11     which those pages of his previous interview and testimony were used

12     during his examination are provided in an e-mail we sent to the Chambers

13     and Defence on 24 April at 10.44.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I take it that you want to review and see

15     what your response will be.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for a while, but we now know what is

18     uploaded in order to be -- at this moment what is uploaded where the

19     Prosecution seeks 7322 admission and also what is uploaded as well as the

20     extracts from the testimony is concerned.  Would it be wise to have

21     already a number reserved for that as well?

22             Mr. Registrar, for 31876a could you provisionally assign a

23     number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P7389, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P7389 is reserved for that purpose.

Page 35673

 1             Mr. Lukic, we'll hear from you, well, let's say, this week?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Can we postpone it till the next week?  This week is

 3     really full for me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the next week means a postponement of four

 5     weeks, but if you do it by e-mail then -- this is indeed a very full

 6     week, so if it is -- well, let's say this month still.  And if it's not

 7     this week, then you can do it by -- through e-mail.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we'll see after that.

10             Is the -- is the Defence ready to call its next witness.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  Mr. Savo Sokanovic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13             But perhaps before the witness enters the courtroom,

14     Mr. Registrar, I'd like to briefly move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35674

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know where ... could someone check

 6     whether the witness is waiting behind the doors or still on its way?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If you don't mind, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness should be on his way.  I would not

 9     have minded at all, I would have appreciated it, but I see the door is

10     opening already.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I spoke too quickly because my appreciation,

13     Mr. Traldi, disappeared from the transcript, which it should not.

14             Good morning, Mr. Sokanovic.  Can you hear me in a language you

15     understand?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.  Good morning to

17     everybody.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Sokanovic.  Before you give

19     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, of which

20     the text is now handed out to you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  SAVO SOKANOVIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Examination by Mr.  Lukic:

Page 35675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please, be seated.

 2             Mr. Sokanovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 3     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sokanovic.

 7        A.   Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

 8        Q.   We speak the same language, so I will make sure to pause after

 9     your answers, and you try to do the same after my questions.  This is for

10     the benefit of the interpreters who need to interpret everything.

11             Could you please slowly tell us your name for the record.

12        A.   Savo Sokanovic.

13        Q.   Could you please tell us your father's name, your date of birth,

14     and your place of birth.

15        A.   Maj father's name was Vojislav.  I was born on the

16     27th January 1951 in Malo Polje hamlet near Kozlovaca.

17        Q.   Your municipality?

18        A.   Han Pijesak.

19        Q.   General, could you just briefly tell us something about your

20     education.  Which schools did you finish?

21        A.   I finished the elementary school in the place where I was born.

22     After that, I completed the air force high school, the air high school

23     for politics of the JNA, the school of politics, and the school of

24     national defence after the end of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25        Q.   When you attended Military Academy, what were you studying?  I

Page 35676

 1     believe that it was not recorded properly.

 2        A.   I specialised in telecommunications.

 3        Q.   Again, I believe that your answer is not complete.

 4     Telecommunications in what field?

 5        A.   Air force and anti-aircraft defence.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now could you please give us the time-frame as

 7     much as can you remember of your professional career.  Where did you

 8     serve and what positions did you occupy before the war and during the

 9     war?

10        A.   I completed a Military Academy in 1973.  Up to 1978, I worked as

11     the commander of the independent platoon of communications battalion in

12     Sarajevo.  It was 321st Platoon.  From 1978 until 1992, i.e., when the

13     war broke out in the former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I

14     performed various duties in the educational centre of the air force and

15     anti-aircraft defence in Rajlovac in Sarajevo.  I was the commander of

16     the cadet platoon.  I was a teacher, assistant commander of the cadet

17     battalion.  I was in charge of a group of teachers, assistant commander

18     of the secondary military school for air force and anti-aircraft defence.

19     Then I was a teacher at Military Academy for -- of air force and

20     anti-aircraft defence.  I was the head of -- of -- an educational

21     programme.  And finally --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the last position.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Would you please repeat your last position.  The interpreters

25     could not follow you.

Page 35677

 1        A.   Assistant commander of the Military Academy of air force and

 2     anti-aircraft defence.

 3        Q.   When the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where were you

 4     and did you stay there or were you assigned to a different duty?

 5        A.   First of all, my belief, and I believe that that belief was

 6     shared by most of my colleagues, was that Bosnia-Herzegovina as a

 7     multi-ethnic state is not a place where a war could ever happen.

 8     However, as the conflict spread from Slavonia across Croatia, and it

 9     could already be felt in the air that it would spread onto

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, certain members of the cadet contingent and

11     members of the faculty started leaving the JNA and moving back to their

12     own midst.  At the same time, information started reaching us, despite

13     our belief that there would be no conflict, that various paramilitary

14     formations were being set up, such as the Green Berets and the Patriotic

15     League.

16        Q.   Just a moment.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question, Mr. Lukic, had been where were you

18     when the war started.  We haven't got an answer to that yet.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will go back to that part.

20        Q.   You have just heard the Judge's intervention.

21        A.   I was teaching at the Military Academy of air force and

22     anti-aircraft defence.  When the war broke out, for a while, I was at

23     Butmir airport together with some of the cadets and teachers from the

24     academy.

25        Q.   Why did you go to Butmir?

Page 35678

 1        A.   We received a task from our commander, actually the commander of

 2     the 2nd Military District, to protect the infrastructure at the airport,

 3     the facilities there, and the equipment that was stored there.

 4        Q.   When you finished work, did you go home?  How did you move about

 5     at the time?

 6        A.   At the time, I didn't go home.  Not only then but even before

 7     then.  For at least a month or two months we would go home only

 8     occasionally.

 9        Q.   Why?

10        A.   Because conflicts had already started, interethnic conflicts, and

11     the JNA and the 2nd Military District tried to prevent interethnic

12     conflicts.  And we were on duty all the time, and those of us who had to

13     be engaged were engaged.  Not me personally.  At the time, I was not

14     engaged.

15        Q.   Where does your family live in the spring 1992?

16        A.   Until the end of April, they lived in Sarajevo.  And then they

17     fled, became refugees, I don't know how to express it, or they were

18     expelled first to Bijeljina and then to Belgrade.

19        Q.   Where were you when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   On the 12th of May, 1992, with the last remnants of the Military

21     Academy, I transferred from Butmir airport to Belgrade.

22        Q.   Did you go back to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   Yes.  In the end of July, I believe it was the 31st of July, I

24     returned and joined the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   Where were you assigned?  Where were you deployed in the end of

Page 35679

 1     July 1992?

 2        A.   I reported to the Main Staff, and I was assigned to the sector

 3     for morale, religious, and legal affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS.

 4        Q.   How many people were you in that sector; if you remember?

 5        A.   When I arrived, there were seven members in that sector.

 6        Q.   To what level were you manned in that sector?

 7        A.   It was supposed to have 40 men, and we were eight.

 8        Q.   While we're on the subject, what were the main problems in the

 9     organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   There were many problems.  A state of war had not been declared

11     so that the army operated and worked under peacetime laws; whereas, in

12     practice, it was in war already.  That made command very difficult but

13     also all the other activities and responsibilities of the commands.

14             Second, the army did not have a centralised and unified system of

15     procurement and equipment.  It lacked all the necessary elements.  It had

16     to rely primarily on local communities and businesses on the ground.

17             Third, in the organisation of the army, there were two prevailing

18     concepts:  One concept that supported the establishment of units,

19     primarily brigades, based on the territorial principle; and the second

20     concept advocating that the army should be organised based on

21     ex-territorial manning, and that second principle was backed by the

22     Main Staff.

23             Another problem for the army was the lack of the necessary

24     unified and uniform care for the families of fallen fighters and the

25     population that had left its own areas of residence, so many of our

Page 35680

 1     personnel were preoccupied with their own family problems, including

 2     members of the command.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  To what level were you manned with professional

 4     officers?

 5        A.   To a very small extent.  The manning level was very low.

 6        Q.   Can you give us some numbers.

 7        A.   Relative to the total number of personnel in the army, the

 8     percentage of professional officers was 2 to 3 per cent, at a maximum.

 9        Q.   And the territory that you were supposed to defend?  What was it

10     like?

11        A.   The territory was very stretched out with a very long line of

12     separation with the opposing sides, upward of 2.000 kilometres which made

13     it impossible to employ the army adequately.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go back to your own sector.  Did your sector

15     have smaller organisational units; and, if so, what kind?

16        A.   Our sector was organised into sections, and there were four

17     sections:  The section for morale and religious affairs; the section for

18     information; the section for civilian affairs; and the section for legal

19     affairs.

20        Q.   In which section were you?

21        A.   I was deployed in the section for morale and religious affairs.

22        Q.   You've told us earlier that the manning level was not good in

23     your entire sector.  Was there a section that didn't have a single

24     member?

25        A.   Yes.  The section for civilian affairs had nobody.  In one part

Page 35681

 1     of the section for morale and religious affairs, in addition to two

 2     persons who were dealing with morale and morale guidance, the same people

 3     had to deal with religious affairs, because there was nobody specialising

 4     in that.  And in the section for information, there were two people; and

 5     in the section for legal affairs also two.

 6        Q.   In the section for information, who was working there?  What was

 7     their rank?

 8        A.   In the beginning, the head of section was Sergeant Borislav

 9     Djurdjevic, a staff-sergeant, and there was another person who was a

10     typist.  Later, heads of sections rotated.  For a while, it was

11     Captain First Class Mladen Petrovic.  Then for two months, it was

12     Colonel Vukota Vukovic.  Then for a longer while, it was Colonel Stanko

13     Misic.  And in the end, Colonel Milovan Milutinovic.

14        Q.   Who was your superior?

15        A.   General Milan Gvero.

16        Q.   And who was superior to General Gvero?

17        A.   The commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Ratko Mladic.

18        Q.   What was your position in the sector?

19        A.   I was head of the section for morale, guidance and religious

20     affairs.  In the beginning, my rank was lieutenant-colonel and then I was

21     promoted into colonel.

22        Q.   In the course of the war, did you become head of one of the

23     sections or sectors?  Did you change position during the war?

24        A.   No.  The answers to both questions is no.

25        Q.   When did you become head of section for moral guidance?

Page 35682

 1        A.   In December 1992.  Until then, I was a desk officer in the

 2     section.

 3        Q.   During the war, were you reassigned to any other duties?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   In your sector for morale guidance, religious, legal affairs, did

 6     sections regularly meet?

 7        A.   No, they did not.

 8        Q.   When would they meet, if ever?

 9        A.   Between sections, communication was usually through direct

10     contact and by telephone.  Because part of the sector was deployed at the

11     main command post in --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And another part was in

14     Han Pijesak, and communication was then usually by phone, especially

15     during cease-fires, then we would meet all together.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you said that you had contacts by telephone

19     because part of the sector was deployed at the main command post in ...

20             And then the interpreters did not hear where that main command

21     post was.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the main command post

23     deployed in Crna Rijeka, and another part was in the logistical command

24     post in Han Pijesak.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 35683

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Where were you?

 3        A.   I was at the main command post.

 4        Q.   How did the reporting go inside the sector and vis-à-vis the rest

 5     of the Main Staff and who reported to the Main Staff on issues of moral

 6     guidance, for instance?

 7        A.   Heads of sections usually reported by telephone to the superior -

 8     that is to say, head of the sector - except for me who was there, so I

 9     did not need to use the telephone so often.  The head of sector, I

10     suppose, reported to the Main Staff - that is to say, the commander and

11     assistant commanders - at occasional meetings or in direct contact,

12     especially in situations when something important from the area of our

13     sector was discussed.

14        Q.   Did units report on these issues to the Main Staff?

15        A.   On issues concerning moral guidance and other issues relevant to

16     our sector, subordinate units made monthly reports and submitted them to

17     the Main Staff, and in the Main Staff it would be put on the desk of the

18     head of sector and then forwarded to me or somebody else from the sector

19     itself.

20             In addition to that, if there was an event relevant and important

21     for morale between two reports, subordinate units would send an interim

22     report, but that happened rarely.

23             And, finally, as part of the regular daily combat reports, there

24     was an item dedicated to the level of morale and the situation on our

25     territory, on the territory of the unit.  And that part of the report was

Page 35684

 1     written by organs in the command who were in charge of reports, and the

 2     head of sector at the Main Staff had the responsibility to look at that

 3     part of the combat report or, if he was absent, then I would do it.

 4        Q.   Could you just explain the competencies and the main tasks of the

 5     sector for morale guidance, religious and legal affairs, and your main

 6     responsibilities.

 7        A.   The section for morale guidance and religious affairs --

 8        Q.   Excuse me, just a moment.  I believe that my question did not

 9     have to do with the sector primarily.  It is not correctly recorded.

10     I'll repeat it.

11             Could you explain the competencies and the principle tasks of the

12     section for morale guidance within the sector for morale guidance,

13     religious and legal affairs, and your main responsibilities.

14        A.   Section for morale guidance monitored the state of morale and

15     factors that had a positive impact on the troops' morale and those who

16     had a negative impact on the troops' morale.  Based on instructions -- or

17     rather, the instruction for monitoring and assessing combat morale in the

18     Army of Republika Srpska which was issued in 1992, the section used the

19     indicators from the instruction to assess combat morale.  All that was

20     done based on the monthly reports received from subordinated units, based

21     on the information contained in regular daily reports, based on the

22     information personally gathered by the officers who visited the units or

23     any other information.

24             Based on all that, the section compiled its reports on the

25     troops' morale for the previous month.  All the elements were

Page 35685

 1     incorporated, and there was also a conclusion and the proposal of

 2     measures that had to be undertaken at the level of subordinated units and

 3     commands.  There was also a proposal for the contents of those measures

 4     that would be undertaken by the Main Staff of the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska itself.  There was also a proposal of the measures that

 6     should be undertaken by the Supreme Command, i.e., the highest state

 7     organs, all with a view to strengthening the troops' morale.

 8             That information was sent to the commanders' collegium and, more

 9     often than that, because not everybody was present at those meetings, the

10     information of that nature was looked at by the chief of sector, and all

11     those who participated would make their proposals.  The report was

12     fine-tuned and sent to the president of the republic.  And the

13     subordinated the units were sent this for their information only, and

14     feedback was requested from them.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has now listened for some 45

16     minutes to matters of which most of them at least they do escape our

17     sense of relevance.

18             Try to get to the points you want to make with this witness,

19     because if you want to counter the evidence presented by the Prosecution,

20     which is, of course, also including structures but always in one way or

21     another related to the crimes charged, get to a point that we understand

22     how the evidence of this witness challenges the evidence presented by the

23     Prosecution, rather than in vague terms as:  To this was the organisation

24     sometimes people attended; sometimes people did not attend.  We had

25     meetings, but sometimes we had no meetings.

Page 35686

 1             Get to the point.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, it does take -- when it's live

 3     testimony, it does take to have some introduction, and I think that

 4     it's --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, fine.  I understand that.  That's the reason

 6     why I'm saying that 80 per cent of the testimony escapes our relevance.

 7     Some introduction, fine.  We now -- you've scheduled it for two and a

 8     half hours.  We have listened 45 minutes to introduction.  Get to what

 9     you want to convince the Chamber of.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Can we have P5082 on our screens, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for it, we have a tight schedule

13     this week, so we're not very much inclined if examination proceeds as it

14     does now to grant any additional time.

15             Please proceed.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] General, this document was drafted in

17     February 1995, and it is about the responsibilities and the recruitment

18     of the organ for moral guidance, religious, and legal affairs in the

19     units and institutions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20             At the end of the document, on the last page thereof, there is a

21     typed name of General Ratko Mladic.  In the version that we have, there

22     is no signature; however, in the document on the screen, we see that

23     there is a signature, as a matter of fact.

24             Can I go back to the first page, please.  Thank you.

25             Are you familiar with this document?

Page 35687

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Does this document have anything to do with your division or your

 3     sector?

 4        A.   This is about the responsibilities and the recruitment of the

 5     organ for moral guidance, religious, and legal affairs in the Army of

 6     Republika, the entire army.  The document was drafted by the sector.

 7     Chiefs of various decisions used the rules and their experience to work

 8     out those responsibilities.  So this document covers the entire military

 9     ranging from the General Staff to the lowest of units, i.e., a platoon.

10        Q.   Let me ask you something about the relationship with the media.

11     What was the position of the Main Staff and your division and sector

12     vis-à-vis the media, both national and foreign, and representatives of

13     international organisations?

14        A.   That was within the purview of the division for information.  The

15     attitude towards international -- or, rather, the relationship with

16     UNPROFOR and other international organisations was within the purview of

17     the division for co-operation with international organisations.  To be

18     very concrete and answer your question, the position was that we should

19     be fair and professional in dealing with journalists and representatives

20     of international organisations.  The same was requested from them; i.e.,

21     there should have been reciprocity in our mutual relationship.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D5391.

23        Q.   This document was issued on the 15th of March, 1995.  The

24     document was signed, and we don't need to see it, or, rather, it was

25     signed on behalf of General Milan Gvero.  Since this is a teletyped

Page 35688

 1     message, the signature is not displayed.  It was sent to all the corps,

 2     as you can see, and to some other addressees to some other units.

 3             In the first paragraph, we read:

 4             "We have lately been aware that commands and units are following

 5     different procedures in informing the public and treating domestic and

 6     foreign journalists whereby they are seriously violating the guide-lines

 7     on informing the public about the VRS, order of the RS president ...

 8     issued in 1994 and other orders regulating these issues.  Such behaviour

 9     has resulted in revealing an increased amount of information constituting

10     military secrets, which...."

11             First of all, you've seen this document during proofing.  How

12     come that military secrets were leaked?  What was the procedure when it

13     came to keeping military secrets?

14        A.   Disclosing confidential military information which primarily

15     concerned the deployment, the size, the strength, the equipment, the

16     planned tasks, results, this information was leaked in two ways.  The

17     first one was -- originated from the units.  Desk officers or assistant

18     commanders for moral guidance and information were poorly informed and

19     for other reasons leaked information that constituted revealing military

20     secrets.  And the second case was when journalists visited the deployment

21     area of a unit, sometime with the best of intent and sometimes not,

22     published information that constituted revealing military secrets.

23        Q.   What was the role of the sector headed by General Gvero when it

24     came to the protection of military secrets?

25        A.   At the very beginning, i.e., 1992, the sector issued an

Page 35689

 1     instruction on how to inform the general public about the activities of

 2     the VRS, and this instruction is referred to in this document as well.

 3             Later on, on several occasions whenever certain occurrences were

 4     observed, it issued additional instructions.  The chief of sector's

 5     personal attitude was that these instructions had to be strictly

 6     observed, that military intelligence had to be kept secret because there

 7     were occasions when a leakage of such confidential information cost

 8     lives.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't hear your last words.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence, 1D05391.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1053, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             We're close to a break, Mr. Lukic.  Still, even that military

17     secrets should be kept confidential, should not leak, is not an

18     astonishing thing, and the link to the crimes charged is still not clear

19     to us, and therefore also not the relevance of this information.  And

20     that's for the last well over ten minutes now that we have listened to

21     that.

22             I mean, if there would have been no leakage, would that have

23     changed considerably the situation?

24             MR. LUKIC:  This gentleman is in the sector of morale and legal

25     affairs.

Page 35690

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I understand that.  But it's about relevance

 2     for this case; that's what I'm talking about.  I leave it to that.

 3             You have two minutes until the break.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 65 ter 14781, please.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] General, this is a document which was issued on

 6     the 20th of June, 1992.  Its title is:  "Prevention of Reprisal and

 7     Treatment of Journalists and Representatives of International

 8     Organisations."

 9             Under 1 --

10             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's the break time.  Maybe we should first

11     go to the break and return, because this one will probably take another

12     five to ten minutes for this document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.

14             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

15             We'll take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Sokanovic.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

21     into the courtroom, I would briefly like to deal with P1655.

22             The Prosecution has requested on the 5th of May during the

23     testimony of Nedjelko Trkulja that Exhibit P1655 not be broadcast.  The

24     exhibit was then temporarily placed under seal and the Chamber requests

25     that the Prosecution provide further information on the record this week

Page 35691

 1     as to why Exhibit P1655 should be kept confidential.

 2             Of course, we do not know whether that needs to be done

 3     confidentially or not, but I leave that in your hands.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   General, we have before us a document dated 20th June, 1992, a

 8     document from the Main Staff of the VRS.  As we see at the bottom, the

 9     name of Major-General Milan Gvero is typewritten.

10             Let me just ask you: What was the position, the policy of the

11     Main Staff, towards the civilian population of the opposite side?

12        A.   The Main Staff did not treat any civilian population as its

13     adversary or enemy that should be attacked.  On the contrary, the

14     position was that the civilian population should be treated properly,

15     correctly.

16        Q.   Did the Main Staff, through its subordinate units, try to

17     organise expulsions of that population, torching and looting of their

18     property?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   If information reached the Main Staff about such actions, such as

21     torching of property or any action against civilians, what would the

22     Main Staff do?

23        A.   As we see from this document of the sector, the persons involved

24     were cautioned and instructions were issued as to what should be done and

25     what consequences would be triggered by failure to obey, and the security

Page 35692

 1     organs initiated, or at least should initiate, criminal complaints if

 2     such things happened.  I can give you one example.  The Main Staff itself

 3     was located less than 1 kilometre from a Muslim settlement, and for a

 4     very long time no measures were taken, although there had been incidents

 5     created by the other side.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm then wondering how the answer

 7     continues.

 8             What then happened?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, are you asking me?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, you are giving an example of what was

11     done if anyone from your armed force would do anything against civilian

12     population.  You give an example but you said:  For very long time, no

13     measures were taken although there had been incidents created by the

14     other side.  So apparently are you talking about not protecting the

15     civilian population again actions undertaken by your own soldiers but by

16     the others.

17             Could you give us one example of ill-treatment of the civilian

18     population reported and then what action was taken against your own

19     soldiers that had shown this behaviour against the civilian population?

20     Just one example to start with.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe what I said was

22     not interpreted properly or maybe I was not clear enough.  I cited an

23     example where the civilian population very close to the Main Staff, less

24     than 1 kilometre, lived and enjoyed protection from our side.  Anyone who

25     wanted to do anything against that civilian population was stopped.

Page 35693

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the kind of example I'm seeking.  What

 2     I'd like you to tell us of one instance where your own soldiers

 3     misbehaved against the civilian population and what action was then taken

 4     in terms of investigations, prosecutions, whatever.  Could you give us

 5     one such example?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot give you an

 7     example like that because I can't remember.  That was within the purview

 8     of the prosecutor's offices and the courts.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you're telling us that whenever this was

10     reported, action would be taken, et cetera, et cetera, so apparently you

11     are familiar with what should have been but -- and I think it touches

12     upon the morale as well, and you show us this document.  But not one

13     example of your own soldiers misbehaving and then action taken by the

14     Main Staff to investigate or to prosecute or whatever.  No example?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I can't remember.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.  And this is exactly the

17     difference between general observations and concrete facts.

18             MR. LUKIC:  This is exactly why we introduced that long

19     introduction, to show you what competencies of this gentlemen were

20     [Overlapping speakers] --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But finally to -- [overlapping speakers].

22             MR. LUKIC:  At last, I will follow your questions now trying

23     further to clarify what his role was.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I am and this Chamber is very much

25     interested, I'm not saying exclusively, but very much interested in what

Page 35694

 1     happened on the ground.  And now we've seen a document which states what

 2     should be done, and then my question is was that done, and then the

 3     witness can't give us any example, so we are remaining then very much on

 4     the abstract level; whereas, the Chamber is as much interested in the

 5     concrete level as well.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General Sokanovic, your sector and your section, did they deal

 9     with investigations of criminal acts?

10        A.   No, and it was not in their area of work.

11        Q.   What is the role of your section in terms of preventative action?

12        A.   Through our briefings, contacts, and in other ways, we cautioned

13     about possible consequences of wrong-doing, but the fact that we

14     cautioned doesn't mean that we were supposed to enforce it.  The

15     competent authorities were supposed to enforce it.  Within the sector,

16     our section, and within the Main Staff of the VRS, instructions applied

17     to all the institutions and all the commands of the army.

18        Q.   In this document signed by late Major-General -- or, rather,

19     General Milan Gvero, we read:

20             "In our previous documents, we have several times pointed out the

21     need to prevent reprisals against innocent people (looting, burning,

22     destruction, and maltreatment).

23             "Such actions are not and must not be characteristic of the

24     members of our army ..."

25             These warnings addressed to subordinate units, were they honest

Page 35695

 1     and sincere in your opinion, or were they designed to conceal different

 2     behaviour that was pre-planned?

 3        A.   No, these warnings were sincere.

 4        Q.   We discussed representatives of the foreign media.  Were they in

 5     any kind of danger of reprisal?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Why?

 8        A.   Some people and a number of fighting men were wounded or killed,

 9     and their families, comrades in arms, and relatives were very embittered

10     for that.  I don't know for what reasons.  Perhaps because of their pain

11     and their experience.  But they were in real danger of reprisal, and we

12     also warned about that, and we pointed out the need to protect them from

13     anything like that.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand the answer, Mr. Lukic.  Your

15     question was:  Whether foreign media representatives were in any kind of

16     danger.  The witness says:

17             "Some people and a number of fighting men were wounded ..."

18             And he's talking about these fighting men being protected against

19     danger.  Now, would representatives of the foreign media be fighting

20     people?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You heard the dilemma voiced by Judge Moloto.  Could you please

23     explain what you meant.

24        A.   A number of fighting men but not only fighting men; also the

25     civilian population were embittered and were hard-hit by the death of

Page 35696

 1     their comrades in arms or relatives or by their wounding.  We thought it

 2     was possible when representatives of the foreign media appear, but not

 3     only the foreign media, also the local media, that could lead to

 4     embitterness -- bitterness, revolt, and even reprisal.  I don't remember

 5     that a single foreign reporter was killed in the territory controlled by

 6     the VRS.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can go ahead.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   What kind of danger were foreign reporters in?

10        A.   Well, they were at risk of being attacked or even liquidated.

11        Q.   Apart from the warnings sent out by your sector, did you also

12     provide security or was security the job of someone else?

13        A.   You mean foreign reporters?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   Providing security to reporters in the territory of

16     Republika Srpska, regardless of whether it was a combat zone or somewhere

17     behind the lines was the responsibility of two types of authorities:

18     Partly the Ministry of Interior and partly the army, especially when

19     reporters would go to military installations or areas involved in the

20     war.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask Mr. Traldi or Mr. Tieger:  Is

22     endangering foreign journalists part of your case?  Putting them at risk,

23     attacking them?

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We've heard evidence of foreign journalists, but --

Page 35697

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I think you can see by the length of

 2     the discussion between Mr. Traldi and myself that we're hard-pressed to

 3     understand the precise relevance of this concern about journalists to the

 4     actual charges in the case.  We're not suggesting that there isn't some

 5     manner in which it can bare on that, but as the Court's question itself

 6     suggested, it's not a specific charge and it's not particularly embedded

 7     in -- in the overall Prosecution case.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if there's no real issue about protecting

 9     foreign journalists to -- why do we hear that?  --

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Sovanovic --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's Mr. Sokanovic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Sokanovic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the second time.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Second time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't correct you if you're speaking your own

19     language, Mr. Lukic, but we also have to protect the witness as well.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise to Mr. Sokanovic as well.

21        Q.   Mr. Sokanovic, what was the position of the Main Staff?  Were

22     journalists to be allowed to write freely on what they wanted to see,

23     obviously with the caveat from military secrets had to be protected?

24     Were foreign journalists allowed to travel the length and the breadth of

25     Republika Srpska?

Page 35698

 1        A.   The position of the Main Staff was to allow journalists to write

 2     freely, that they had to make sure that military secrets were not

 3     revealed, and that they could move freely wherever their own personal

 4     safety or military secrets were not threatened.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, again a sweeping statement.  We have

 6     heard detailed evidence about the first visit to Omarska by one of the

 7     journalists.  We have seen quite a lot of documents about what happened

 8     in the Srebrenica area on details on who would be allowed yes or no.

 9     These sweeping statements do really not assist in better understanding

10     the situation apart from -- I mean, these are but -- and we have seen

11     that before, and we have heard other witnesses say in general every

12     journalist was free to report and to go wherever he went unless, and of

13     course the focus is on the "unless."

14             Let's proceed.  If the witness has any specific knowledge,

15     specific events, specific limitations, in the freedom of movement of

16     journalists and further reasons for that, we'd like to hear it very much,

17     but general statements we've heard quite a bit.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  You are very impatient today, Your Honour.  We'll

20     come -- next document will speak about that.  We will offer this one into

21     evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 14781 will be Exhibit D1054.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Next document we would like to see 65 ter 05852.

Page 35699

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sokanovic, the document before us was issued

 2     on the 26th of July, 1995.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  If we can see the bottom of the document in both

 4     versions, please.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] The document has a signature stamp of the deputy

 6     chief of sector, Colonel Savo Sokanovic.  Is that you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What was your role in the Main Staff with regard to foreign

 9     journalists and reporters?

10        A.   Can I expand on that, please?  Not only foreign reporters but all

11     reporters who wanted travel through Republika Srpska and visit certain

12     facilities and units addressed the Ministry of Information of the

13     government of Republika Srpska.  More often than not they would present

14     themselves personally at its door, and then that request was forwarded to

15     the Department for Information which was in Han Pijesak.

16             Since they didn't know what was the situation like in the field,

17     whether there were any combat activities where the journalists wanted to

18     go, they would forward that request to the chief of sector, i.e., myself,

19     with a request to collect information and send the request back so that

20     they could answer.  That was a standard procedure that was applied.  And

21     then based on the position of the operative organ who was familiar with

22     the situation on the field, the superior organs of information and

23     security and its -- and their opinion, a consent or approval would be

24     given for the journalists' free passage, if at all possible.

25        Q.   In this document, we can see that the team of ZDF journalists

Page 35700

 1     were allowed passage from Pale across Rogatica, Visegrad, towards

 2     Belgrade.  Was all this information on combat activities also collected

 3     even when a team of journalists wanted to pass through?  What was your

 4     role in the collection of that information?

 5        A.   As I've just explained, an approval was sought for every

 6     situation for a mere passage or a longer stay with a unit in an area of

 7     combat activities.

 8        Q.   In your answer, you said what should have been done.  Did you

 9     personally collect information, for example, from the security sector or

10     from the operations sector in the area where combat was ongoing?

11        A.   Yes, it was either me or one of the colleagues who were members

12     of the organ at that time.

13        Q.   You have previously told us that the protection of those

14     reporters was dual.  We can see that they would be accompanied by the

15     police patrols from Pale.  How did you know that the MUP would be in

16     charge of their security?

17        A.   In two ways:  One way was that part of the request was also

18     police protection, which was then regulated in keeping with the rules of

19     the Ministry of Interior; and the second way was when such teams passed

20     through areas where there was no combat, so the military did not have to

21     provide security.  A previous order of the president of Republika Srpska

22     defined that both the MUP and the military provided protection for teams

23     of journalists as needed.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be instructed to move

25     away from the microphone.  Thank you.

Page 35701

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you move slightly away from the

 2     microphone.  Although I'm not certain that it -- this resonance is caused

 3     by the closeness or whether it's anything else.  Could you please -- the

 4     usher will stay with you until after you have restarted answer -- started

 5     the answer to your next question.

 6             Mr. Lukic, security for journalists, as we established a minute

 7     ago, was not a major issue.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We would offer this document

10     into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1055, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And now I'd like to ask you about humanitarian convoys.

17             What do you know by the co-ordination body of the government of

18     Republika Srpska that dealt with issues relative to humanitarian convoys?

19        A.   The president of the Republika Srpska issued an order to set up a

20     co-ordination body for humanitarian organisations.  A representative of

21     the military was a member of that body.  That body was headed by

22     Mr. Kalinic or Krajisnik, I'm not sure, somebody from the top echelons of

23     the government.  There was a member from the Ministry of the Interior.

24     Another member was from the commissariat for refugees and displaced

25     person.  Humanitarian organisations that wanted to deliver humanitarian

Page 35702

 1     aid or do other things in the territory of Republika Srpska or those who

 2     wanted to pass through the territory of Republika Srpska had to address

 3     that co-ordination body.  The representative of the military of

 4     Republika Srpska participated in the work of the co-ordination body and

 5     the final position of the co-ordination body was binding.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Can we 65 ter number 12957.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] We have just talked about this.  This document

 8     was issued in December 1993, and it deals with the co-ordination body.

 9     You've already told us something about that.

10             If the co-ordination body allowed a convoy to pass through the

11     territory, what was the role of the military following such a decision?

12        A.   Either the military or the police, depending on the nature of the

13     convoy, if such a convoy just passed through Republika Srpska to go

14     elsewhere, the military and the police were duty-bound to check the list

15     of personnel and cargo of the convoy, and if there were no discrepancies

16     or hindrances, they were supposed to allow their free and unhindered

17     passage.  If there was a problem, the convoy would be kept and the issue

18     would be dealt in an adequate way.

19             For example, sometimes they would enter with a surplus of cargo

20     that was not covered by the convoy manifest.  Such cargo would be kept at

21     the check-point, and when the convoy returned on its way back it would

22     pick up the cargo and take it away.

23             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1056, Your Honours.

Page 35703

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, please.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             Yes, I first should have -- admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The record is not entirely clear.  D1056 is

 6     admitted.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] When it comes to your sector, did it try to act

10     pre-emptively with regard to POW camps?

11        A.   Yes.  They did it in the following sense.  Although this was not

12     within the sector's jurisdiction, still we issued warnings about the

13     respect for the rights of prisoners.  We also stated that the

14     representatives of the International Red Cross and other international

15     organisations should be allowed free visits.  So those were the warnings

16     and instructions we issued.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Any concrete example of such a warning, Witness?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens, Your Honour, 1D05432.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's an example, then there's no need for the

20     witness to answer my question at this point.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  1D5432.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems that there's no translation

25     at this moment.

Page 35704

 1        Q.   For the benefit of all the others who don't understand B/C/S, I

 2     will say that the document was issued on the 28th of May, 1993.  The

 3     title is:  "Instruction on the Actions of the Units of the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska when Visiting POW Camps and Military Investigation

 5     Prisons."

 6             On the last page, that is to say this next page, let's look at

 7     the signature.  It's signed General Milan Gvero.  And we see it was

 8     delivered to all the corps and the command of the air force and

 9     anti-aircraft defence.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not signed, but the author is -- well,

12     Mr. Lukic, sometimes you have --

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you have commented on the situation.  I leave it

15     to that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, my mistake.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC:  This is a --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But you accept that this was sent by Mr. Gvero?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Well, I spoke with this witness on this document

21     during the preparation, and then I can ask him.  It may be better then.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm asking for the position of the Defence,

23     but ...

24             MR. LUKIC:  It is -- it's typewritten.  Whether he signed it or

25     not, it cannot be seen from this document.

Page 35705

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  My question is whether you accept that it was

 2     sent by Mr. Gvero.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It is definitely not sent by Mr. Gvero.  It's

 4     somebody from the centre.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, that it was sent and that this was

 6     authored by General Gvero.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I can ask the witness.  I cannot testify on this

 8     issue.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you can -- you can present the position of the

10     Defence on it, which may save a lot of questions as well now and then.

11     But if you don't want to answer that question, then just move on.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Just if it might assist, we've got a translated

15     version of what we believe to be the same document under a different ERN.

16     It's uploaded under 65 ter 32561, and my colleague has just released it,

17     in case Mr. Lukic would prefer to work with that one.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for your help.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would certainly prefer to see the

20     English version as well.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have then 65 ter 32561, please.  I can read

22     this translation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine that you can.  First of all, you

24     accept that it's the same -- it's not the same document but it's another

25     copy of --

Page 35706

 1             MR. LUKIC:  The same number appears on the top.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that's -- although it may be -- there were

 3     some -- some handwriting on it, but the typed text or the printed text is

 4     the same?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sokanovic, is this a document drafted in

 9     your sector?

10        A.   I didn't hear part of your question.

11        Q.   Sometimes I speak too fast.  Did this document originate in your

12     sector; if you know?

13        A.   Yes.  We see the registry number from our sector.  We can't see

14     the signature because it was sent by teletype.  A teletype cannot

15     transmit a signature, but we see the stamp at the end confirming that a

16     certain unit had received this document.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the second page of this document?  We

18     don't know if there is a stamp on this one.  There is.  It's slightly

19     different stamp, but we -- we can use this document.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] In your sector, were you able to monitor the

21     enforcement of this or is this just an instruction?  Who was supposed to

22     do something about this?

23        A.   [Interpretation] This is only an instruction.

24        Q.   Who was supposed to monitor its enforcement?

25        A.   POW prisons were established by corps, and each corps had a

Page 35707

 1     commander of such a prison.  He was supposed to monitor the situation and

 2     report to the corps commander, and if the corps commander decided

 3     something was important enough, he would submit it to the commander of

 4     the Main Staff.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence; so it's

 6     65 ter 32561.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1057, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Sokanovic, which service in the Main Staff was in charge of

12     following the media?

13        A.   It was the section for information within the sector for morale,

14     religious, and legal affairs.

15        Q.   At the Main Staff, were you able to follow foreign media such as

16     the CNN, BBC, Deutsche Welle?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   At that time, was there any cable television in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   I don't know about Bosnia-Herzegovina, but not where we were.

21        Q.   Did you have Internet?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did you read foreign newspapers and did you receive foreign

24     press?

25        A.   No.

Page 35708

 1        Q.   At the Main Staff, did you have satellite aerials to receive

 2     foreign TV programming?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now ask you about problems in getting

 5     information.

 6             In those years of war, were there any problems in gathering

 7     information?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was not head of that section, but I know for a fact that

 9     there were problems.  I can even tell you about some of them.

10        Q.   Yes, please.

11        A.   The first part of the problem was in gathering information.  That

12     is to say, whether the units from bottom to top regularly gather

13     information and forward it to higher levels.  That was the job of this

14     section.  But unfortunately, it was not the case.  Due to lack of

15     personnel or lack of experience, it functioned more or less in some

16     places not at all, in other places moderately well.

17             The second part of the problem was the lack of equipment.

18     Cameras, printers, copying machines, communications equipment.  It was

19     very difficult to pass information on.

20             The next problem was with generalisations.  Inadequately trained

21     people were not always able to make an appropriate analysis and summarise

22     information into reports.  Communication was towards units and towards

23     the public.  There were limitations to our technical ability.

24             As far as the operation of the army is concerned, a particular

25     problem was that our troops were stretched thin along an extremely long

Page 35709

 1     separation line.  It was not always possible for troops on the front line

 2     to be well-informed unless a company commander would go from trench to

 3     trench and inform them personally because he was unable to gather them

 4     for a briefing.

 5             Another problem was that troops who would go on leave rarely

 6     followed any media.  They were too preoccupied with their family

 7     problems, with gathering wood for the winter, providing for their

 8     children's education, dealing with domestic problems.  These people had

 9     neither the interest nor the possibility to follow the media.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask one question in relation to

11     one of the documents you have shown to the witness.

12             You were shown this where you said it was just an instruction for

13     prisoners of war, how to treat them.  Now, that document explains that

14     the ICRC could only speak with prisoner of war who would be prosecuted

15     for war crimes or crimes against humanity in the presence of an examining

16     magistrate or an investigative judge.  What's the basis for this presence

17     of such a judge under international law when the ICRC would visit such a

18     prisoner?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't give you a

20     reliable answer to this question because I see by the number here that

21     this document was drafted in the legal section, but I know that a

22     prisoner should be allowed to speak to representatives of the ICRC

23     without the presence of anyone from the side who is holding these

24     prisoners.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But for certain situations, the document

Page 35710

 1     contradicts this.  So if you have no explanation for that, we'll just

 2     move on.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I can give you the position of the Defence.  If

 5     somebody is submitted to the investigating judge, he is only --

 6     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- allow me to just be a bit amused.  A minute ago

10     where I asked for the position of the Defence you said I can't give it

11     because you -- you should ask the witness.  Now, I asked the witness

12     something, and -- of factual about a document and what explains the

13     content of the document.  Now you say we can tell it what it is.  We'll

14     hear from you any submissions from that in the interpretation of this

15     document.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I can explain.  The first one was factual question,

17     the second one is legal question.  And I come from that legal system, and

18     I have a position on that one.  On the matter of the signature of the

19     gentleman where I was not present, I cannot have my position.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, my question was a factual one is whether

21     this witness can explain the content of that.  This witness can't do

22     that.  I take it that you will be in a position later to elaborate on it

23     when you make any submissions on legal matters.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 35711

 1             Can we have 1D5422 on our screens, please.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Until we get some help from our

 4     colleague Mr. Traldi and Ms. Janet Stewart, we'll have to work with the

 5     B/C/S version.

 6        Q.   We have looked at this document during proofing, the two of us.

 7     It's a document from the sector for intelligence and security affairs,

 8     the security administration, the Main Staff of the VRS.  At the

 9     Main Staff, there was a security administration; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   At the Main Staff, was there an information administration?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   In para 2 in this document -- in fact, let's first read what it's

14     about.  The first paragraph says -- it's the first paragraph above what

15     we see now on the screen.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Bit more further -- up.  Thanks.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] It says in the middle of this paragraph:

18             "As far as providing information to the public on combat

19     activities from the 6th of October to the 12th of October 1995, it's

20     necessary that security organs and units of military police fully comply

21     with the cited orders."

22             And there is an order from the sector for morale, religious, and

23     legal affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS cited at the top.

24             In item 2, we read:

25             "Individual reporters or crews from the media may enter the

Page 35712

 1     combat zone only with the approval of the Main Staff of the VRS, signed

 2     by the commander of the Main Staff, Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic or

 3     assistant commander Lieutenant-General Milan Gvero, or Colonel

 4     Savo Sokanovic, the head of the information administration."

 5             But you've just told us that there was no information

 6     administration at the Main Staff?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Were you the chief of the information administration?

 9        A.   I couldn't be the chief of something that didn't exist.  I

10     wasn't, because there was no such administration.  Second, I was head of

11     the section for morale and religious affairs, not the section for

12     information.

13        Q.   Even if we agree that the term is wrong, you were not chief of

14     section for information either, were you?

15        A.   No, I was not.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.  Time for a

17     break?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Time for a break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Time for a break.  And could you tell us how much --

20             Could first the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any forecast as far as timing is

23     concerned?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I will stay inside two and a half hours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then before we take the break, I stopped you

Page 35713

 1     earlier when you wanted to explain on the basis of your knowledge of your

 2     own system.  You may have misunderstood my question.  My question was

 3     where the justification is found in international law.  Because in the

 4     document, of course, it is easily stated that internal law would overrule

 5     Article 126 of the Geneva Convention of this -- on the treatment of

 6     prisoners of war, and that is -- we are looking forward if you, at a

 7     later point in time, deal with a legal issue how internal legislation

 8     could overrule any rights granted by the Geneva Conventions.

 9             We take a break, and we resume at quarter past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may move on, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             First I would tender 1D5422 to be MFI since we do not have

16     translation.

17             MR. TRALDI:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's MFI D1058, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification pending uploading a

21     translation.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me ask you about paramilitary formations.

25             In the Main Staff, did you know that there were paramilitaries in

Page 35714

 1     the territory of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What was the position of the Main Staff regarding members of the

 4     paramilitaries?

 5        A.   The presence of paramilitaries was very pronounced at the

 6     beginning in the initial period.  I don't want to go through all of their

 7     names, but I would like to say that the position of the Main Staff and

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska was that paramilitary units should be

 9     absolutely subordinated to the units of the VRS army, not just formally.

10     Unfortunately, the process was very long and hard and despite the

11     requests and demands of the political and military leaderships, some

12     units that were subordinated to the VRS still acted as paramilitary

13     formations and they were very hard to control and command.

14             The last known presence of a paramilitary formation that I am

15     aware of within the VRS was in 1995.  I believe that it was in the month

16     of October 1995.  I'm talking about Arkan's unit.  The commander of the

17     Main Staff, General Mladic, approached the president of Republika Srpska

18     and gave him an ultimatum with regard to that unit, asking him that that

19     unit should be removed from the territory of Republika Srpska, and that

20     eventually happened.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness.

22             When did the commander, General Mladic, approach the president?

23     When did that take place?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When that paramilitary unit arrived

25     in the western part of Republika Srpska.  As far as I can remember, I

Page 35715

 1     believe that it was in the month of October 1995.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Where were you in October 1995?

 5        A.   I was in Banja Luka at the forward command post of the

 6     Main Staff.

 7        Q.   I would like to ask you about the relationship with the civilian

 8     authorities.  Did the military co-operate with the civilian authorities

 9     in Republika Srpska?

10        A.   The military did co-operate with the civilian authorities.  The

11     quality of that co-operation ranged and it varied.  Let me say that we

12     co-operated with the local bodies of authority and economic entities,

13     that co-operation with the brigade level.  We co-operated with the

14     regional authorities and economic structures, that co-operation was

15     exercised by corps commands.  And then at the level of the Main Staff,

16     there was co-operation with the bodies of authority at the level of

17     Republika Srpska, of course.

18             Of course, there was no co-operation with the Supreme Command,

19     who was the Supreme Commander, the military carried out his orders.  But

20     there was co-operation with the assembly, with the government, with

21     commissions for refugees and displaced persons, with the Ministry of the

22     Interior, the Ministry for Religious Affairs, and all the other important

23     organs of authorities that were of some significance for the functioning

24     of defence and the military.  That co-operation most commonly concerned

25     the provision of bare necessities for the military, their families, and

Page 35716

 1     the families of fallen soldiers.

 2             The co-operation varied from one body to another.  Among those

 3     who co-operated with the civilian authorities was also the Department for

 4     Information.  That co-operation oscillated with time and it varied from

 5     one body to the other, so there were periods when there was very good

 6     co-operation with some bodies and then there was a lull in that

 7     co-operation or even a tension between those bodies.

 8        Q.   Were there any conflicts with any of the civilian authorities,

 9     especially when it came to the financial situation of the military?

10        A.   Yes, there were conflicts.  One of the issues at stake was the

11     concept of organising the military.

12        Q.   What organ are you talking about, first of all.

13        A.   The Ministry of Defence because the Ministry of Defence was in

14     charge of providing finances for the military.  The Ministry of Defence

15     advocated a different way of organising the military.  According to them,

16     they wanted the logistics sector, the sector for organisation, personnel,

17     and mobilisation, and the sector for morale guidance, religious affairs,

18     and legal affairs to be parts of the Ministry of Defence, whereas the

19     Main Staff would only have a commander and his staff.  Also, there were

20     conflicts with the Ministry of Information.  There was also a period

21     when -- or, rather, several periods when there were conflicts and

22     tensions with the Supreme Commander, himself, i.e., the president of the

23     republic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at 1D5415.

25             We'll check if we have a translation.  It doesn't seem to have

Page 35717

 1     been uploaded.

 2        Q.   Let me tell you what the document is about.  It was issued by the

 3     Main Staff of the VRS on the 26th January, 1994.  It was faxed, and the

 4     signature block contains the name of Colonel Savo Sokanovic.

 5             Do you remember this document, Mr. Sokanovic?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Under paragraph 1, it says --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we inquire whether any translation does exist?

 9     Is the Prosecution aware of -- Mr. Lukic, this is now the third document

10     without a translation.

11             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I was just going to say no, we're not, and that we'd

13     checked when we got the Defence's list whether we had translations for

14     any of them and provided the ones we had.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, it cripples the Chamber, more or

16     less, if we can't have a look at the document in its entirety and if you

17     just read portions, and since this is now the third time today --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I can -- since this is short document, if you want

19     me, I can read the whole document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It takes more time, even.  That's -- but let's -- if

21     you first put your questions to the witness, then we'll ...

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Sokanovic, the first thing that we can read in this document,

24     apart from a list of addressees, including all the corps, as well as the

25     air force and anti-aircraft defence, and some other units, it says here:

Page 35718

 1             "The government of Republika Srpska issued a decision on

 2     centralising all procurement for the VRS in 1994.  Contracting

 3     procurements of equipment and materiel will be done by the Ministry of

 4     Defence.  The military needs to express its requirements."

 5             In practice, did this decision ever take off the ground?

 6        A.   No, unfortunately not.

 7        Q.   Now come that you issued this document?

 8        A.   This document was drafted after a session of the government of

 9     Republika Srpska.  Numerous requests came from the VRS from its

10     Main Staff to secure provisions for the military, and the government

11     finally took it upon itself to arrange centralised procurement according

12     to the requirements of the military.  In that decision, it also says that

13     requests should be submitted, segregated by the type of materiel and

14     equipment and their quantities.

15             On behalf of this sector, I sent this document to the units

16     asking them to express their requirements and submit them to us so that

17     they might be supplied with what they needed.  Obviously, this refers to

18     the requirements of the sector -- not only the sector but the entire

19     organ for moral, guidance, religious and legal affairs across the board,

20     across the military.

21        Q.   After that, how did your chain of procurement go?  How did you

22     get your supplies after January 1994?  Did you continue sticking to your

23     old ways or did the Ministry of Defence change its attitude towards the

24     Army of Republika Srpska?

25        A.   Nothing changed.  Everything was as it had been before.  As for

Page 35719

 1     my specific requirements, we did not receive anything.  Everything was

 2     dealt with to the extent possible through the nations, through gifts from

 3     other bodies.

 4        Q.   This document is just an illustration of what you told us before.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender it into

 6     evidence to be marked for identification first.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1059.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

10             Next subject, please, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] And let me now ask you something about strategic

13     goals.  In your interview with the Prosecutor, you were asked about that.

14             At the end of the war, did you have a very clear picture as to

15     what the borders of Republika Srpska were or were to be?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D5421.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you be a bit more precise by what

19     you meant by "at the end of the war"?

20             MR. LUKIC:  On the 17th of October, 1995.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             That's how you understand the question as well, Witness?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we have another

Page 35720

 1     document without translation.  We requested a translation but we haven't

 2     received it yet.

 3             This is a document issue by the sector for morale guidance,

 4     religious, and legal affairs.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, when did you request a translation?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I have to check with my Case Manager.  Probably not a

 7     long time ago.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because if it was this morning or yesterday,

 9     then, of course, that sheds some light on level of preparation.

10             MR. LUKIC:  It sheds lights more on our --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No further comments, Mr. Lukic.  I know that --

12             MR. LUKIC:  But if you comment on our work, we should probably

13     have the right to respond.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you're not in the same position as the Bench

15     is.  Let that be clear.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know, Mr. Sokanovic, how and why this

19     document was created?

20        A.   Yes.  This document was created after a session of the

21     National Assembly of Republika Srpska held in October 1995 after the fall

22     of 30 municipalities in the western part of Republika Srpska and three

23     municipalities in the area of Ozren.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  We - which I assume everyone understands not to mean

Page 35721

 1     me but Ms. Stewart - appear to have found a translation under a different

 2     ERN which we're going to pull up in Sanction.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'd like to have a look at it.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This document was shown to you by the Prosecution during your

 7     interview, if my notes are correct.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But we need page 2.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S.

11        Q.   Halfway through the page, we see:

12             "The political leadership and the National Assembly have still

13     not, to this day, determined the borders of Republika Srpska that the

14     military are supposed to reach or to defend.  Quite to the contrary.

15     Most frequent discussions were about percentages and ceding territory."

16             Who drafted this document, if you can remember, Mr. Sokanovic?

17             MR. LUKIC:  We can have maybe might try have English translation

18     so you can --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it's in Sanction, it may cause some

20     problems, but I don't know.

21             MR. LUKIC:  No, I read everything I wanted from the B/C/S

22     version, so we can have this section.  It's last quarter of the document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If we could have the document on our screen through

24     Sanction in English.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have it.

Page 35722

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We have it, yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Should start with:  "... political leadership... "

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] We see you are on the signature line.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We have to go back, if you don't mind.  Go back

 5     slowly.  A bit further.  A bit more.  Yeah.  A bit more.  I didn't have

 6     this document, so I really couldn't locate where -- should be:

 7             "... the political leadership and assembly ..."

 8             A bit further up, please.  Bit more.  That's it, in the middle of

 9     the page.  Thank you.

10             "To this day, the political leadership and the National Assembly

11     have not determined the borders of the RS which the army is supposed to

12     defend or reach."

13        Q.   [Interpretation] On the 17th of October, 1995, when this document

14     was created -- in fact, from the 14th to the 16th October, when the 54th

15     Session of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska took place, combat

16     had already been terminated and there was no more fighting until the

17     signing of the Dayton Accords.  Had you asked is the assembly or the

18     government or the president before to tell you the objective of your

19     fighting, all of it in the light of the strategic objectives that were

20     put to you during the interview; can you remember?

21        A.   Yes, I remember.  I was asked about that during the interview and

22     I said then that I personally, and many other people with whom I

23     discussed it, did not know clearly defined objectives of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska, and this gave rise to several letters addressed first

25     to the Ministry of Defence, or the government, or the president of the

Page 35723

 1     republic - I can't remember anymore all the people to whom we wrote -

 2     asking that our goals be defined.  Because all the time, as far as I know

 3     and the way I saw it, the objective we had in our head was to protect the

 4     population, to defend the territory, to restore peace that would be

 5     lasting and fair.  That was the objective we had in our minds and the

 6     objective we pursued.

 7        Q.   Earlier today you gave us one example that, in your view,

 8     reflects that there were no objectives of the war, and you were talking

 9     about a village belonging to the other ethnic group situated very close

10     to the Main Staff headquarters.  Can you tell us the name of that village

11     or those villages?

12        A.   Yes, it's Krivace Plane, Potplanje, Podzeplje.  All of these

13     villages were very close to the Main Staff.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you were on your feet.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I don't recall the witness -- actually, if the

16     witness could take off his head phones for a moment assuming --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you speak or understand the English language,

18     Witness?  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a few words.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I didn't re-call the witness's testimony -- I

21     recalled the witness mentioning the example.  I didn't recall his

22     testimony, that this example reflected that there were no objectives of

23     the war, and so I was wondering if Mr. Lukic could provide an explanation

24     of -- or a reference.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, there was a spontaneous observation by

Page 35724

 1     the witness about protecting civilians in a nearby village, but

 2     Mr. Traldi is now asking about whether -- how to link that to the

 3     objectives of the war in the absence of such objectives.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It's not on the record, it's still in my head.  Maybe

 5     I jumped ahead because I know I spoke with this witness --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- and he mentioned that in this sense.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, not as far as we could hear, but please move

 9     on.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is speaking too loud -- too loudly and

12     should refrain from doing that.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to inform my colleague that I'm closing

15     to an end in a couple of minutes.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sokanovic, these villages you've just

17     mentioned, were they armed?

18        A.   There were armed people there.  They had armed units.  I don't

19     think every resident had a weapon.

20        Q.   Did you know they were armed?

21        A.   We knew because on two occasions they had launched combat actions

22     against members of the staff and staff units.  In one incident, one

23     person was killed, and in the other action, I believe 14 members of the

24     VRS were captured.

25        Q.   Was it clear at that moment what should be done?

Page 35725

 1        A.   In that situation, the Army of Republika Srpska did not take any

 2     armed action.  Instead, we tried to find a way towards peaceful

 3     co-existence.

 4        Q.   What part did you play in that?

 5        A.   I worked on drafting a leaflet, a flyer with a proclamation that

 6     was to be addressed to the residents of these villages, saying that we

 7     should continue living peacefully side by side, that they should respect

 8     the authorities of Republika Srpska.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. LUKIC:  I would offer this document into evidence to be MFI'd

11     until the translation is verified, probably.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, we saw thumbs up which you should

15     refrain from doing.  We heard again loud speaking.  This is the last

16     warning.  The slightest contravention of what you are supposed to do will

17     now immediately result in removal from the courtroom.  Let that be clear.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you were on your feet.  I don't know.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Simply to say that we have no objection, and

22     Ms. Stewart has provided the Defence's Case Manager with the translation,

23     so I imagine it'll be uploaded and released shortly.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 35726

 1             You have tendered the document when I intervened.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's 1D -- or is it under different 65 ter --

 3     no.  It's 1D05421.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1060, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Until we have the new translation attached to this

 9     one, we'll wait for a second to have it admitted and have it marked for

10     identification until this administrative matter has been resolved.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll ask you now briefly about your personal

14     losses during the war.  Did you lose anyone in the war in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995?

16        A.   Unfortunately, yes.

17        Q.   Who did you lose?

18        A.   My father.

19        Q.   How did your father die?

20        A.   An armed unit of the so-called BH Army raided his unprotected

21     village, torched the houses, looted the property, and killed those who

22     had not managed to get away quickly enough.  My father was an elderly

23     man, ill.  He didn't even have time to leave his house.  He was torched

24     together with the house.

25             And I also lost another eight relatives, including two who had

Page 35727

 1     lived in Sarajevo and were identified rather late, in 2000-and-some year.

 2     They were identified at a location in Sarajevo.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Tell us exactly which location it was where they were exhumed.

 6        A.   Kazani.

 7        Q.   General Sokanovic, thank you.  This is all that we had for you at

 8     the moment.  Thank you for answering our questions.

 9        A.   Welcome.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

11             Mr. Sokanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.

12     You'll find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

13     Prosecution.

14             Mr. Traldi.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Lukic mentioned your interview with the Office of the

19     Prosecutor during direct examination.  That was in 2004.  Can I take it

20     that your position is that you told the truth in that interview?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  It was a long interview, and communication wasn't very

22     easy.

23        Q.   But your position is you told the truth; yes?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I want to briefly follow up on a couple of the topics that were

Page 35728

 1     discussed on direct examination.

 2             First, you mentioned that a state of war was not declared for the

 3     entire Republika Srpska.  You're aware that a state of imminent threat of

 4     war had been declared beginning in April 1992; correct?

 5        A.   I don't know about that.  At least I can't recall that at this

 6     moment.  But the state of war was proclaimed towards the end of 1995.

 7        Q.   Do you recall the Law on All People's Defence, the ONO?

 8        A.   I remember the Law on All People's Defence of the Socialist

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Do you recall that under the law that one of the consequences of

11     a declaration of a state of imminent threat of war is a general

12     mobilisation?

13        A.   I am not disputing that, but the Socialist Federal Republic of

14     Yugoslavia no longer existed.

15        Q.   Well, a general mobilisation was declared in Republika Srpska,

16     for instance, by President Karadzic on the 20th of May, 1992; right?

17        A.   If I remember well, an approximate date -- on that approximate

18     date, the president of the republic issued the decision on the

19     organisation and establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska and

20     required the Main Staff to make a draft of that decision.  So I suppose

21     one of the things written there was that the units should be manned and

22     they couldn't be manned without mobilisation.  But the state of war was

23     not declared.

24        Q.   Do you recall that under the ONO, one of the consequences of that

25     general mobilisation was the transfer of the military to a wartime

Page 35729

 1     structure?

 2        A.   I don't recall that and it doesn't sound logical, because if

 3     there's a state of war, then the army should be operating under wartime

 4     rules, and the state should be operating under wartime laws.

 5        Q.   So you don't re-call Article 8 of the ONO clarifies that the

 6     armed forces and other state and other organs transfer from a peacetime

 7     form of organisation to a wartime form of organisation when mobilisation

 8     is introduced.  Your testimony today is you don't remember that?

 9        A.   I don't remember that, but I maintain that mobilisation in and of

10     itself still does not mean a state of war.  Because peacetime laws

11     continue to be in force.

12        Q.   Now, you weren't -- I have been asking about mobilisation.  You

13     weren't involved yourself in mobilisation or manning of the army; right?

14        A.   No, nor was I in the Army of Republika Srpska on that date in

15     May.  And even later, that is not within the competencies of the sector

16     for morale, religious, and legal affairs.

17        Q.   You are familiar, however, with the combat readiness report that

18     the army did, the VRS did in 1993; right?

19        A.   You mean analysis?

20        Q.   Of combat readiness for the VRS, yes.

21        A.   Yes.  Not in detail but I know about it.

22        Q.   Would your sector have worked on the sections of the report

23     dealing with, for instance, morale?

24        A.   I suppose so.  That would be logical.

25        Q.   And this is an authoritative document; yes?

Page 35730

 1        A.   I don't know what to answer.  I cannot assess its weight.  It

 2     certainly has some weight.

 3        Q.   Well, your sector and the other Main Staff sectors worked on

 4     analyses relevant to your own areas of work; right?

 5        A.   I suppose so.  And if we worked, because this is an analysis of

 6     the combat readiness of the army, we also gathered information from

 7     subordinates.

 8        Q.   And you gathered information from the corps, the corps gathered

 9     information from the brigades; right?

10        A.   That's how it should be.

11        Q.   And this both reflected what the army had been doing and helped

12     guide next steps; right?

13        A.   As far as I remember, from theory, each analysis should involve

14     dealing with one particular issue and end in a conclusion and a proposal

15     of measures.

16        Q.   Now, you wouldn't have worked on the section dealing with

17     mobilisation and manning because that wasn't part of your responsibility;

18     right?

19        A.   Generally speaking, we did not deal with that.  But if it touched

20     upon morale, it could have been mentioned as one of the factors impacting

21     on the morale of the troops.

22        Q.   Well, but the mobilisation and manning sections would have been

23     dealt with by the relevant Main Staff sector, not by your sector or your

24     section; right?

25        A.   Yes, it was the responsibility of the sector for organisation,

Page 35731

 1     mobilisation, and personnel, but the issue could also be treated in the

 2     part of the analysis that dealt with morale, religious, and legal

 3     affairs.  It could be included there as an element that had a positive or

 4     adverse effect on the morale of the troops, on logistic, et cetera.

 5        Q.   Well, since it could have an impact on morale, then you're surely

 6     aware that in the combat readiness report, the sector for organisation,

 7     mobilisation, and personal noted that three VRS corps - the SRK [Realtime

 8     transcript read in error "RSK"], the 1st Krajina Corps, and the

 9     Drina Corps - were actually manned above 100 per cent of the set manning

10     levels; right?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, did you say RSK or SRK?  You are

12     recorded as RSK.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It's an important

14     distinction and I did say SRK, I think.  I certainly meant to.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Absolutely.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Would it be useful if I repeated the question, sir?

18        A.   No, I don't think that's necessary.  Certainly, all the elements

19     were considered in some way to the extent needed.  Whether that was taken

20     into account at the time or not, I can't say.  But I'm not challenging

21     the facts you are putting to me or what is written there, but the quality

22     of manning these corps and the entire army is very important.

23             If you just allow me to say this --

24        Q.   Sir --

25        A.   Whether, for instance, we had enough officers and

Page 35732

 1     non-commissioned officers --

 2        Q.   I understand.  What I'm asking you is, yes or no, whether you

 3     recall that as of the promulgation by the combat readiness report in the

 4     1993, the three corps I mentioned - the Drina Corps, the

 5     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and the 1st Krajina Corps - were all manned in

 6     terms of number of personnel at above 100 per cent of establishment

 7     levels.  Do you recall that?  Yes or no?

 8        A.   No, I can't remember.

 9        Q.   Do you recall how establishment levels were set?

10        A.   For the entire military?  Mr. Prosecutor, do you mean the entire

11     military?

12        Q.   I mean do you recall how or who was responsible for determining

13     what the establishment level of a particular brigade or a particular

14     corps was.

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that was established by the organs for

16     organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs in consultation with

17     organs at lower levels and in keeping with the prevalent rules.

18        Q.   Now, just quickly before we go to the break, you mentioned on

19     direct that the corps commands and the air force command would include

20     reports on morale in their daily combat reports.  The commander of the

21     Main Staff as well as the assistants to the commander had to be familiar

22     with those daily combat reports; right?

23        A.   I said that in regular combat reports at those levels of command,

24     there was a paragraph referring to combat morale and situation on the

25     front line.  This doesn't mean that all assistant commanders were

Page 35733

 1     familiar with those reports.  If all of them were present, which was

 2     rare, I can't rule out the fact that they may have been informed.

 3     However, it would be the chief of sector for morale, religious,

 4     and personnel affairs or legal affairs who would be best suited to learn

 5     about that particular paragraph in combat reports.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you said before we go to the break.

 7     That was three minutes ago.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And I see we're now at the time, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break.

10             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in

11     20 minutes.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Just if I might use the time, if we could pull up 65

18     ter 07988.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Sir, this is the 1st Krajina Corps' report dated the 30th of

23     September, 1992, on current issues of combat morale.  This is a document

24     that, based on your position at the time, you would have reviewed

25     personally; right?

Page 35734

 1        A.   I was still not the chief of department for moral guidance and

 2     religious affairs.  Dosen Zivko was still in that position.  This doesn't

 3     mean that I did not review the document, but I would need some time to

 4     look at it.

 5        Q.   Well, let's look at page 2 for the moment in both languages, and

 6     I'm interested in the second paragraph in both languages.

 7             The 1st Krajina Corps is writing about UNPROFOR, the Red Cross,

 8     and then in the second paragraph refers to certain journalists who they

 9     suggest are writing more and more objectively and portraying the real

10     state of affairs and give a certain confidence and belief in their good

11     intentions.  They say:

12             "Soldiers and units have accepted with trust only the Russian

13     delegation and the most recent articles in the Russian press."

14             Now, it's clear that the 1st Krajina Corps' organ for legal,

15     moral, and religious affairs was able to keep track of what was going on

16     in the international press; right?

17        A.   I suppose so because they were in a big city, and it was the

18     strongest information department with a well-developed press centre.

19        Q.   In fact, as one of the officers in that department, Milos Solaja

20     testified they had an analytical group for monitoring international

21     media; right?

22        A.   Quite possible yes.

23        Q.   Now, you told Mr. Lukic on direct examination that you weren't

24     able to keep track of what going on in the international press.  In fact,

25     the Main Staff could simply have asked one of its subordinate corps;

Page 35735

 1     right?

 2        A.   Hmm, they could but they did not.

 3        Q.   Well, among other things, they were receiving information in

 4     these morale reports on what the international press was saying, weren't

 5     they?  Like we see here.

 6        A.   Those were just sporadic examples.

 7        Q.   And when international media coverage was published either on

 8     Bosnian Serb television, or the Bosnian Serb press, the press in the

 9     Republic of Serbia, or the press in Croatia, or in Bosnian territory, the

10     Main Staff's sector for legal, moral, and religious affairs would track

11     it through its monitoring of those sources of media; right?

12        A.   I've already told you that neither the sector nor the information

13     department that were in charge of this had no technical capabilities for

14     direct monitoring.  They also couldn't read foreign press.  The only

15     newspapers that they could read were those from Republika Srpska and

16     Serbia.  They knew as much as they could hear or read in the domestic

17     media.

18        Q.   Now, in fact, your -- the instruction you drafted that

19     General Mladic signed that Mr. Lukic showed you on direct - and for the

20     record, that's P5082 - that talks about monitoring enemy media, doesn't

21     it?

22        A.   Yes, but the instruction was drafted in 1995.

23        Q.   Now, when you were asked about it in your interview, you said

24     this department had a duty to -- first to watch Muslim and Croat TV

25     stations so that -- to see what kind of information they are

Page 35736

 1     broadcasting.  Do you stand by that today?

 2        A.   I stand by that, with a caveat:  I don't recall having mentioned

 3     Croatian media, but I'm not excluding that.  I don't remember having

 4     mentioned TV situations but, rather, radio stations.  We could not

 5     receive any television signals that didn't emanate from Republika Srpska.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it -- is it well understood yet in your interview

 7     you did not mention TV and only radio?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, that's

 9     correct.  They could monitor radio and television programmes of

10     Republika Srpska and those of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said they could monitor radio and

12     television programmes.  And a minute ago, you said:

13             "We could not receive any television signals that didn't emanate

14     from Republika Srpska."

15             So you're excluding Croatian television; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, and based

17     on what I can remember, I would exclude that, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Traldi, I don't know whether -- I take it

19     that there's a verbatim transcript of the interview?

20             MR. TRALDI:  There is, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And there is an audio recording?

22             MR. TRALDI:  There is.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please read to the witness then what

24     he said if you did not yet intend to do that.

25             Witness, we have an audio recording -- well, the Chamber not yet,

Page 35737

 1     but there is an audio recording of your interview.  So therefore, if you

 2     are telling us that the transcript is not accurate - and Mr. Traldi will

 3     put it to you most likely - then we'll just check it on the basis of the

 4     audio to find out whether you said -- referred to television in that

 5     context or not.

 6             Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 32563.  And we'll be looking

 8     for ...

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MR. TRALDI:  While it comes up, if I might tender the last

11     document, just so I don't forget.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 07988 will be Exhibit P7390, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P7390 is admitted.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have page 44 in the English and 55

16     in the B/C/S.

17             And, I'm sorry, I'm seeing a different page in the B/C/S than I'd

18     expected.  If we could have e-court page 55.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the English?  And for B/C/S -- it comes in

20     the reversed sequence.  Usually we have the B/C/S at the left and ... I

21     do not mind, but ...

22             MR. TRALDI:  I am afraid I do, as we're not -- we now don't have

23     the right page.  If we could have 44 in the English and 55 in the B/C/S.

24     And the English, it will be listed as the original.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have two times the English version.

Page 35738

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, we see starting at the bottom of the English --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we don't have the right page in B/C/S yet.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.  And if we could go back, I think, a

 5     single page.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  That's not --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have -- I don't know whether the page

 9     numbering at the bottom corresponds with the page numbers.  It seems at

10     least in the English that it does, but it looks as if we are on page 14

11     now on the B/C/S, which is difficult to understand as corresponding with

12     page 55 unless there are more documents.

13             MR. TRALDI:  My understanding is the B/C/S pages are numbered by

14     the tape, whereas the English is numbered as a whole.  And we can see on

15     the English we're looking for the start of T000-2724A.  And it appears to

16     me the start of that is on page 55 in the B/C/S.

17             Now, we see at the very bottom of the English that the

18     interviewer refers to a paragraph in the document dealing with the

19     monitoring of enemy media, and if we could then turn to the next page in

20     both languages.  Now, we have -- sorry.  If we could go back to the

21     bottom of the previous page in the B/C/S.  I'd skipped an important

22     portion.

23        Q.   We see you describe, beginning at line 20, the duty of the

24     information department regarding the monitoring of enemy media.  Is it

25     clear to you from what's written there that this included monitoring

Page 35739

 1     Muslim and Croat television, based on your answer in your interview?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do we see this in the English?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Line 2.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  There is clear -- if the witness can take off his

 5     headphones.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please take off your headphones for a

 7     moment.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  This is clear translation issue.  It says "stations."

 9     In English we have TV stations.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- what exactly are we talking about?  Lines.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Line 20 --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Line 20.

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- in B/C/S.  Line 2 in English.  And then in line 23

14     in B/C/S, it says what is not TV.  In English we have TV added.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could perhaps the witness --

18             MR. LUKIC:  To read --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, Witness, could you put on your

20     earphones again.

21             Could you slowly read what is recorded here as -- on line 20, can

22     you read that?  Where it starts with: "Ovi organi..."

23             Could you slowly read that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "These organs therefore monitor the

25     media of the enemy, the opponent, and our own information about the enemy

Page 35740

 1     published in the media.  Namely this organ, i.e., the department that was

 2     in charge to the extent possible, monitor Muslim and Croatian stations

 3     and to listen to what they publish and to monitor stations of

 4     Republika Srpska and to see what they publish."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now I heard the witness read quite a bit in the

 6     beginning of what something that doesn't appear at all in the English.

 7     Or am I wrong?  It's certainly not the same -- well, I think it is --

 8     what then follows seems to be more or less the same, that is, about radio

 9     and newspapers and then the confirmation by the witness, yes --

10             MR. LUKIC:  And in Serbian it's "listen" in English it says

11     "watch."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  So --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this portion certainly needs --

15             Witness, you will understand that we carefully look at what your

16     statement is and --

17             Mr. Traldi, it may be that you move on for the time being and

18     that you have it reviewed so that we can be certain that what is put to

19     the witness is really what he said.

20             MR. TRALDI:  We'll certainly do that, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed for the time being.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do, Mr. Traldi.  Did I hear you correct

23     that you said the English is the original?

24             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, and it -- well, it's been uploaded as the

25     original but it's based on an audio recorded interview where the witness

Page 35741

 1     would have been speaking in Serbian --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So it's actually in terms of the audio

 3     Serbian is the original.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  And the audio is what we'll check against.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But here a technique is used in which one portion is

 7     in the one language and -- one version is the one language, the other one

 8     in the other language, whereas sometimes we have a different technique

 9     being used for recording; that is, that always the switch from one

10     language to the other can be followed on the one and only transcript.

11     Here, apparently, work has been done on it, and I take it that we would

12     consider whatever is spoken in English in that respect as original, and

13     whatever is spoken in B/C/S, that in that respect it is original.

14             That's how I understand the technique being used here.  So if you

15     verify it, then it should be done on the basis of the audio checking

16     whether B/C/S-spoken words appear right in the B/C/S.  And then later, of

17     course, the translations become relevant as well.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You have a bit to do or to be done.

20             MR. TRALDI:  We'll try to handle it, thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn to a different topic.

24             One of the things that your Main Staff sector did was publish a

25     magazine called Srpska Vojska; right?

Page 35742

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 02362.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number, please.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  02362.  And in line 10 I think I'd said they

 5     published the magazine.

 6        Q.   Now, this is the transcript of the 22nd Session of the

 7     Republika Srpska Assembly held on the 23rd and 24th of November, 1992.

 8     This is around the time Srpska Vojska was created; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And, in fact, you and General Gvero went to the assembly to

11     attend a promotion for the first issue; right?

12        A.   Probably.  Although I don't remember.

13             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 29 in the English and page 28

14     in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   We see a reference to the promotion of the magazine.  We read a

16     reference to Minister Ostojic speaking.  He was the minister for

17     information in the RS government at the time; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now he says in pertinent part beginning in the fourth line and in

20     reference to Srpska Vojska:

21             "The very name and emblem of the magazine, which is issued by the

22     editorial office of the Main Staff of the Serbian army, shows that the

23     news network ... of the Serbian people is developing in the direction

24     determined by the SDS, and carried out and channelled by the National

25     Assembly and its executive organs."

Page 35743

 1             He's describing here the role and function of Srpska Vojska;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, he, indeed, describes that.

 4        Q.   Now below that - and turning to the next page in the B/C/S - we

 5     see your superior, General Gvero speak.  And in the second paragraph of

 6     his remarks, he says, in pertinent part, that Srpska Vojska has a small

 7     editorial board and "it is my pleasure to present to you

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Savo Sokanovic, a young editor and a local man."

 9             Now this is a reference to you; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  Although I haven't found it in the text, but I believe what

11     you say.

12        Q.   Well, in the B/C/S version, it's under General Gvero's name, in

13     the second full paragraph, the fifth line on the far right.  Do you see

14     it?  I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the

15     record.

16        A.   I found it.  Thank you.  I apologise.

17        Q.   And the Second-Lieutenant Djurdjevic he refers, who he says is

18     the editor, that's also an officer in the Main Staff's sector for legal,

19     morale, and religious affairs; correct?

20        A.   Yes, at that time he was head of the section for information.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, P7196 consists of an excerpt from this

22     assembly session.  What I'd request leave to do is simply add these pages

23     in both languages to that exhibit.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P what?

25             MR. TRALDI:  7196.

Page 35744

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if there's anything for contextualisation

 3     you would like to add, I take it that you'll inform Mr. Traldi without

 4     delay.  We'll wait and see how the extract is changed and then an

 5     instruction will be given to Mr. Registrar once you have uploaded the new

 6     extract.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Now can we have 65 ter 19225.

 9        Q.   What we see here is the first issue of Srpska Vojska dated the

10     18th of November, 1992.

11             Now turning to page 2 in both languages, we see an editorial by

12     General Gvero titled:  "The Voice of Serbian Dignity and Chivalry."

13             Turning to page 3 in the middle in the English and towards the

14     bottom of the page in the B/C/S, the eighth paragraph, so the third

15     paragraph from the bottom, we see that he writes in pertinent part:

16             "Our greatest value is the unity of the political and military

17     leadership at all levels of the state, the unity of the people and the

18     army, and a willingness to fight for victory."

19             General Gvero is setting out the state of co-operation between

20     the VRS and the political authorities at that time; correct?

21        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, this is a feature from this magazine from the

22     very beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and his message is, if I

23     have the right to interpret someone else's words at all, is what our

24     greatest value is, and I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

25     Unity of the political --

Page 35745

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- leadership, the army, and the

 4     people --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- no one is claiming that there is anything wrong

 6     in it.  Mr. Traldi just seeks your confirmation of this being an

 7     expression of the co-operation between the civilian structures and the

 8     military structures.  You are -- apparently you have something on your

 9     mind that you are accused of something, which is not the case.  You

10     appear as a witness.  So I do understand that you say there's nothing

11     wrong, but it does express as was suggested by Mr. Traldi ...

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I just say briefly one thing?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it's relevant, as in to the answer, then

14     we'd like to hear it, otherwise ... otherwise not.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that this is

16     the beginning, the early days of the fighting, December 1991.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- that's the reason why Mr. Traldi mentioned

18     the date:  November 1990 -- I think it was November 1992 instead of

19     December 1991, is it?

20             MR. TRALDI:  It was, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're referring to December 1991, Witness, but

22     the document we looked at is the first edition which was published in

23     November 1992.  You agree?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.  I agree.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

Page 35746

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Sir, just so the record is clear, I take it you agree that

 3     General Gvero is there setting out the state of co-operation between the

 4     military and civilian authorities as of November 1992; right?

 5        A.   Well, reading this text it appears to be so, but this can also be

 6     interpreted as something that would be desirable.  We need this unity.

 7     It's our greatest value.  That's the message.

 8        Q.   Now some of the other things we read in this text are references

 9     to a 500-year Turkish occupation, reference to forced conversions of

10     Serbs, and a description of the war to that point as a "national

11     liberation war to save and preserve the Serbian people."

12             Past crimes against Serbs and the need to preserve the very

13     existence of the Serbian people by winning the war were ongoing themes in

14     Srpska Vojska's work; correct?

15        A.   In our lands, it's very difficult to get a view of anything

16     without looking back to the past.  Regrettably so.  And unfortunately

17     some of the causes of this conflict lie in the unresolved matters from

18     before.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question was a different one:  Whether past

20     crimes against Serbs and the need to preserve the very existence of the

21     Serbian people by winning the war, whether these were ongoing themes in

22     Srpska Vojska's work.

23             Were they or were they not?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were themes, but certainly not

25     ongoing.

Page 35747

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Turning briefly to page 4 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S,

 3     and I see the time, so I'm going to ask you just three very focused

 4     questions about this article.  This is an interview with General Mladic

 5     titled:  "Our Enemies Have No Chance."  He is asked at first about the

 6     struggle so far and refers to avoiding what he calls a new 1941.  This is

 7     also a reference to past crimes against Serbs; correct?  Yes or no.

 8        A.   Yes, yes, there were crimes.

 9        Q.   Later in his answer at the end of the first column in the B/C/S,

10     we see that he says that:

11             "At all events we should thank all those progressive people and

12     the movement or, rather, the SDS who woke the bulk of the Serbian people

13     and opened their eyes to these stormy events, which undoubtedly saved

14     many of them."

15             This is an illustration of the unity General Gvero was describing

16     between the military and political leadership at that time; correct?

17        A.   Yes.  And at that time, there were no great differences.

18        Q.   Turning to page 7 in the English, page 5 in the B/C/S in the

19     middle, we read General Mladic is asked about differences between the VRS

20     and the JNA, and he says, in pertinent part:

21             "The difference between our army and the JNA is that this is an

22     army with a clear goal before it."

23             At that point, the objectives of the war, the six strategic

24     objectives, were perfectly clear to General Mladic and to the VRS; right?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Is it read to the witness or is

Page 35748

 1     General Mladic referencing so those six objectives?  Can we find it in

 2     the text?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- well, I didn't understand the question to be

 4     that it quoted literally General Mladic.

 5             Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct.  What I was --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But perhaps you rephrase the question in such a way

 8     that Mr. Lukic's concerns are removed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   I'll break it up into two very short yes or no questions, sir.

11             General Mladic says:

12             "The difference between our army and the former JNA is that this

13     is an army with a clear goal before it."

14             Now, that reflects that at that point General Mladic and the VRS

15     were clear about the goals of the war; right?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.  What

17     General Mladic thought at that time, this witness cannot know that.

18             MR. TRALDI:  The witness testified he was one of the editors of

19     this publication.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Editor?  [Indiscernible] everything what somebody

21     thinks or means?  Could he project to publish something?  It's very

22     broad.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was broader than just General Mladic.

24             You as an editor of this publication and as a member of the VRS,

25     do you understand this to be an expression that the objectives of the war

Page 35749

 1     were clear for the VRS?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letters are very small.  Could

 3     you please highlight this passage for me?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the relevant portion be enlarged.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  We are looking for the third column, I believe, in

 6     the B/C/S at the top of the page.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I think we cannot continue this way today.  We should

 8     read everything what General Mladic said what the objective is.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You can do so in re-examination.  The questions are

10     now focusing on what is published here as an interview, or at least

11     that's how I understand what it is, an interview in this magazine with

12     General Mladic.  And if there are good reasons to believe that this is

13     not what he said, you have an opportunity in re-examination, Mr. Lukic,

14     to address that matter.

15             Witness, is it large enough for you now?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the text, but I don't see

17     any "goals."

18             MR. LUKIC:  First of all, the question was plural.  Here we have

19     one goal.  So it's misleading as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- have you found where it says

21     what -- that this is an army with a ... let me just see.

22             You read the relevant portion, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Now Srpska Vojska quotes General Mladic saying the difference

25     between our army and the former JNA is that this is an army with a clear

Page 35750

 1     goal before it.  Now, first, you understand that to mean that the purpose

 2     of the war was clear at that time, right, yes or no?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, he is speaking in the same sense that I mentioned

 4     before that it was -- the goal was the protection of the people, the

 5     defence of the territory, the restoration of peace --

 6        Q.   Sir, I hadn't asked you at this stage yet what the goal was.

 7     What he is saying -- what you understand him to be saying is that the

 8     purpose of the war at that stage is clear.  Yes?

 9        A.   That's what is written here.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see the time.  I'll explore the

11     topic further tomorrow.  I'd ask that a number be reserved for these

12     three articles from this issue.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you already reserve a number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P7391, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

16             Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow at 9.30 in the

17     morning in this same courtroom.  But before you leave this courtroom, I'd

18     like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever

19     way with whomever about your testimony, irrespective of whether that is

20     testimony you have given today or whether it is testimony still to be

21     given tomorrow.

22             If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, which three articles are you talking

24     about?  Are you talking about the three --

25             MR. TRALDI:  I'd -- what I'd meant was, and I spoke, I think,

Page 35751

 1     imprecisely, the cover, General Gvero's piece, and then the interview

 2     with General Mladic.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's 65 ter 19225.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  From 19225, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, when you earlier said that you had not

 8     asked yet what these goals or that goal would be, you may have forgotten

 9     about that you, in page 76, line 4, you said:

10             "At that point the objectives of the war, the six strategic

11     objectives were perfectly clear to General Mladic."

12             So you did clearly refer to what a goal or the goals would have

13     been and therefore it was not fair to the witness to say I didn't ask you

14     that yet.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I agree, Mr. President.  I'd simply intended to

16     focus the witness on the immediately preceding question and I -- of

17     course, I did so inartfully.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but he could have been confused and could have

19     thought that you were still thinking in terms of the six strategic goals.

20             We -- with apologies, we were unable to finish on time.  We'll

21     adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, 19th of May, 9.30 in the

22     morning, in this same courtroom, I.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of May,

25                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.