1 Tuesday, 19 May 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There is one preliminary but so short that we could already ask
12 the witness to be escorted into the courtroom. It is about D01060. The
13 translation which was provided by the Prosecution has now been uploaded
14 by the Defence, and therefore it seems that the English translation was
15 uploaded into e-court under doc ID number 1D19-2264 can be attached to
16 D01060, and D1060 is admitted into evidence.
17 I do understand, Mr. Traldi, that there was still some puzzles in
18 relation to the transcription of the interview of the witness but that
19 you'll further sort that out.
20 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. I've spoken with Mr. Lukic and
21 we're in agreement as to how to proceed.
22 Just briefly for the Chamber, essentially the transcript is
23 correct as to the original words spoken in both languages, so the English
24 translation was essentially correct for the English -- sorry, the English
25 transcript. The B/C/S transcript essentially correct for the B/C/S.
1 We've had it reviewed, and what I intend to do is simply pull up the
2 relevant page of the reviewed version in B/C/S, ask the witness to read
3 it for the record, and ask if he confirms it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be a very practical way of resolving
5 the matter. Something apparently has gone wrong then in translation or
6 the transcription of the translation.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sokanovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
11 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
12 beginning of your testimony. And Mr. Traldi will now continue his
14 Please carefully listen to the question and try to answer them as
15 directly as possible.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 32563A, page 55, in the B/C/S
19 WITNESS: SAVO SOKANOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
22 Q. And as it comes up, good morning, sir.
23 A. Dobro jutro [No interpretation].
24 Q. Now, this is a portion of the transcript of your interview with
25 the Office of the Prosecutor that we looked at yesterday. We've had it
1 reviewed overnight, and what I'm going to ask to you do is simply begin
2 at line 20, read the reviewed version of your answer slowly into the
3 record, and then at the end tell us if you confirm the truthfulness and
4 accuracy of what you've read. Beginning at line 20 with your initials
5 and the words "ovi organi."
6 A. "These organs were following the media, information media of the
7 enemy, and our information about the enemy were published by the media.
8 This organ, or this section, was in charge to the extent possible to
9 monitor the Muslim/Croat media and to listen -- stations and to listen
10 what they were broadcasting also to listen to the stations in
11 Republika Srpska to see what they were broadcasting."
12 Q. And do you confirm the truthfulness and accuracy of that answer?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So the record is clear, the organ or the sector that we're
15 speaking of is the Main Staff's sector for legal, moral, and religious
16 affairs; correct?
17 A. The discussion here is about the information sector and the text
18 says: "This organ," in line 3, "This organ, or department, was entrusted
19 to the extent possible," and so on and so forth.
20 Q. The information section, which staff sector in the Main Staff was
21 that part of?
22 A. That section was one of the sections in the sector for morale,
23 legal, and religious affairs.
24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32646.
25 Q. Now, these are instructions issued by General Gvero dated the
1 9th of March, 1993. Below point 1, on the first page in both languages,
2 we read about the presentation of what he describes as anti-Serbian
3 propaganda in other countries. And turning to page 2 in the English in
4 the first full paragraph, so the paragraph immediately above the Roman
5 numeral II, and at the bottom of page 1, and top of page 2 in B/C/S, we
6 read his evaluation that:
7 "In other countries every citizen can see this for themselves on
8 a daily basis on their TV screens or hear it from their radios or read it
9 in the newspapers and magazines."
10 Now this reflects that General Gvero was aware as of March 1993
11 that foreign media was reporting that serious crimes had been committed
12 by Bosnian Serb forces. Yes?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the text in front of me is very illegible. I
14 didn't manage to find the paragraph that you have just read to me.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had some concerns there as well, Mr. Traldi.
16 Could you, first of all, could we try to have the -- to have it enlarged
17 to the extent possible for the witness. Even if need be, only the B/C/S
18 on the screen so that it can be further enlarged. And second, could you
19 then slowly read it again, the portion that you had in your mind.
20 We'll try to make it better legible for you, Witness.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Now can you see at the very top of the page here a reference from
23 General Gvero to the fact that every citizen can see this for themselves
24 on a daily basis on their TV screens or hear it from their radios or read
25 it in their newspapers and magazines; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, if we could scroll down to the middle of page 2 in the
3 B/C/S, just to make clear that they are able to read that he's aware of
4 to read and see and hear. In the middle of the page as we have it now,
5 General Gvero refers to specific allegations: Aggression, ethnic
6 cleansing, crimes, obstruction of humanitarian aid, and other activities.
7 As of this point, early March 1993, it's clear that he was aware
8 that such allegations were being made in the international press; right?
9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say what General Gvero knew or didn't
10 know. Specifically it states here that those carrying out an anti-Serb
11 campaign will attempt - attempt - among other things to find arguments in
12 our media, to charge Serbs and their army for ethnic cleansing crimes,
13 interfering with the delivery of humanitarian aid, and so on and so
15 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness very well, the
16 interpreters note.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are speaking away from the microphone.
18 Can the microphone be adjusted. The usher will assist you. The
19 interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.
20 Could you resume your answer. You said:
21 "... among other things to find arguments in our media, to charge
22 Serbs and their army for ethnic cleansing crimes, interfering with the
23 delivery of humanitarian aid, and so on and so forth."
24 Was that the last part of your answer, or did you say anything
25 after that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Now, you said you can't say what General Gvero knew or didn't
4 know. At this point, the 9th of March 1993, he was your immediate
5 superior; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How often would you meet?
8 A. Sometimes we met on a daily basis, several times, and then at
9 other times, we wouldn't see each other for a whole month.
10 Q. His office was about 30 metres away from yours? Or the building
11 his office was in was about 30 metres away from the building your office
12 was in?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. And what we're reading about here, information about the war,
15 information about the actions of Bosnian Serb forces in the media, that
16 was part of his job, part of your job, part of the responsibilities of
17 the sector he ran and in which you worked; right?
18 MR. LUKIC: Objection. We exactly do not see it here as this
19 gentleman said. This document says in English and it's the same in
20 Serbian: Among other things, the campaigners -- the anti-Serbian
21 sentiment will try. We do not see what happened, what -- it's his
22 what -- assumption of General Gvero what somebody will try.
23 MR. TRALDI: Is it Mr. Lukic's case that there'd been no reports
24 of such crimes before this time?
25 MR. LUKIC: I'm discussing this document that is in front of this
1 witness. There are --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to clearly separate the objection against
3 the question and what Mr. Lukic's case is. These are two different
4 matters. At the same time, could you -- in your question, could you
5 phrase it again Mr. Traldi, and could you avoid anything that could be
6 possibly understood as not quoting correctly the text before us, and then
7 of course you can put whatever question you want.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Coverage and potential coverage of the war and of the actions of
10 the VRS was part of General Gvero's responsibilities, part of your
11 responsibilities, and part of the responsibilities of your sector, his
12 sector in the Main Staff; right?
13 A. It was part of the responsibilities of the chief of the sector,
14 i.e., General Gvero, and the section for information in the sector for
15 morale, religious, and legal affairs.
16 Q. So what I'm putting to you is your testimony that you can't say
17 what General Gvero knew about international coverage of the actions of
18 the VRS at that time is not the truth. That you, at the time, were aware
19 that he was aware of the nature and the tone of international coverage of
20 the regular allegations of crimes by Bosnian Serb forces, including the
21 VRS. That's the truth; right?
22 A. No, I didn't know.
23 Q. Below that, General Gvero writes about particularly sensitive
24 information that at the time is coming out the Eastern Bosnia and
25 suggests that this information should be carefully monitored. That's
1 because the Main Staff was capable of monitoring the information coming
2 out of Eastern Bosnia at the time; right?
3 A. The Main Staff received information from subordinate units and
4 commands, including those that were located in that area.
5 Q. In fact, by this time, the Main Staff's sector for legal, moral,
6 and religious affairs was putting out daily reports on what it termed
7 Muslim and Croat propaganda; right?
8 A. I think that they were not doing it at that time. I think we're
9 talking about early 1993 here. But during a certain period, yes. I
10 cannot remember the time-period though in which they did so.
11 Q. Now, we may have occasion to look at one or two later and see if
12 we can refresh your recollection. But for the moment, this time,
13 March of 1993 in Eastern Bosnia, one of the things that happened was the
14 enclave of Cerska fell; right?
15 A. Yes, that was when Cerska was liberated.
16 Q. And the people living in Cerska, the Muslims who had been there,
17 they fled when it was, as you say, liberated; right?
18 A. I assume so, but I wasn't there. According to my information,
19 though, they did leave that area.
20 Q. And there was a humanitarian crisis in March 1993 in the
21 Srebrenica enclave; right?
22 A. I didn't have information about whether there was a humanitarian
23 crisis or not. But in any case, a large number of people arrived in the
24 area, and the living conditions then were not the same as they were
1 Q. When you say "not the same," they were very bad, the living
2 conditions; right?
3 A. I assume so. I really cannot say because I didn't have the
4 opportunity to see so for myself.
5 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that the Main Staff's position was
6 that journalists could write freely and move freely. We read here that
7 in the context of the events we just discussed, General Gvero's position
9 "All uncontrolled and unorganised movements of the local and
10 foreign journalists in the theatre of war must be prevented."
11 This is an example of General Gvero applying a more restrictive
12 policy than the one you described yesterday; right?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I do see the paragraph. I see what you have just
14 read out to me. In general the position of the Main Staff, which sent
15 instructions to the units, was that domestic and foreign journalists for
16 their personal safety should not be permitted or permitted extremely
17 rarely to move about the combat zone. Naturally, journalists could not
18 move around unless they were accredited in the proper way by the Ministry
19 of Information.
20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender this document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we decide on that --
22 Witness, the conditions or the limitations on the free movement
23 here, as far as can I read, have got nothing to do with safety but are
24 about a risk of propaganda or misinformation. Would you agree with that?
25 Because I don't see any reference to safety. I see it's embedded in a
1 document which deals with anti-Serb propaganda.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor put
3 this question to me right after several questions that had to do with the
4 Cerska operation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I think the Prosecutor was asking the
6 sensitivity of the information, and he wanted to find out what that was.
7 But I'm now putting the question to you whether you agree that the
8 context of this document is not one that refers to safety and security of
9 the journalists but which is about a risk of publications which are
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you could interpret it
12 in that way, but you could interpret it also in a different way. On the
13 basis of this text, it's difficult to see what it's all about. I think
14 that in the specific instance there should have been no danger from this
15 information being released in view of the fact that the UNPROFOR
16 commander, General Morillon, happened to be in Srebrenica at that time
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what I read in this document - and there may
19 have been some confusion in the questions put by Mr. Traldi as well - is
20 that there is concern about the information which is provided by the
21 Serbs themselves is used for arguments so as to accuse the Serbs from all
22 kind of things. That's the context of this document.
23 And, Mr. Traldi, I'm saying that it may not have always been very
24 clear because information in your questions it's not always clear whether
25 you refer to information coming from the Serbs, as we find clearly on the
1 bottom of the previous page and then the top of this page, and then the
2 information you can read in the media which, of course, is something
4 But that's the context, Witness, isn't it? Abuse of your
5 information for accusing the Serbs of all kind of things, that's the
6 context. Do you agree or do you not agree; and, if not, and if you think
7 it's more about safety, please point at where specifically safety and
8 security is referred to.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this part of the text
10 in front of me, I don't see anywhere that the safety of journalists is
11 discussed. It also says that we particularly believe the information
12 from the area to be sensitive, and the position of the Main Staff, and it
13 regulated this through instructions, that the information should be
14 issued regularly in an objective way and in a timely way. That it should
15 be truthful.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender the document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You did that already.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32646 receives number P7392,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7392 is admitted.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P6646.
25 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 19th of November, 1994,
1 entitled: "Directions on Some Current Issues Regarding Public
2 Information." And it's sent to the assistant commanders for moral
3 guidance, religious, and legal affairs of the various corps, the various
4 logistics bases, and several other units. Those are all units, corps,
5 and logistics bases directly under -- directly subordinated to the VRS
6 Main Staff; right?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. This is your document; right? You produced it.
9 A. I think so, but I cannot see the end of the document.
10 MR. TRALDI: Let's turn to the end for the witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that. I signed it.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. And this document sets out generally how VRS units are to behave
14 in terms of public information, what information to provide; right?
15 A. I suppose so. I didn't manage to read the entire document. That
16 is one of the guide-lines that we sent out.
17 Q. Is this a document you would have produced on your own authority
18 or would one of your superiors have had to approve it?
19 A. I did not have authority of my own. Whenever General Gvero was
20 present, if I wrote anything, I wrote it on his orders and with his
21 approval, or if somebody else wrote it, then I would sign it.
22 Q. So General Gvero would have approved this document being
23 disseminated; right?
24 A. In principle, yes.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 2 in the English, please.
2 Q. I'm directing your attention to point 12 which we already see in
3 front of you in the B/C/S. We read that this part of the document, you
4 direct those units:
5 "Mask our offensive activities maximally. Do not inform the
6 public about these, but in the advanced stage, present them as ... the
7 natural right to self-defence and a forced response, in other words, a
9 You are directing that the public be intentionally misled about
10 the VRS's offensive operations; right?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
12 speak directly into the microphone, not on the side. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you try to speak directly into the
14 microphone. And it could perhaps be adjusted again. Perhaps you sit
15 slightly back or that it ...
16 Yes, we're not blaming you for anything, but we try to hear the
17 words you are speaking.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise for these
20 difficulties. I don't know whether you can hear me properly now.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you now please answer the question whether you
24 were intentionally instructed to mislead the public about offensive
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So in any war, all conflicting
2 armies try up to a maximum to conceal --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No one yet asked whether it's justified or whether
4 there were good reasons to do that. The question simply is whether you
5 instructed that the public should be misled intentionally about offensive
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we gave instructions
8 to mask activities to a maximum degree so that they would remain secret
9 so that they do not be made public.
10 THE INTERPRETER: And we didn't hear the end of the sentence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the end of your answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At a later stage, it should be
13 portrayed as a counteroffensive. If that's what I said at the end.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. And, sir, what I'm putting to you is that aside from masking the
16 operations, separate from any attempt to keep them secret, what you're
17 suggesting is that offensive activities should be presented as part of
18 self-defence or as counteroffensives as a forced response rather than the
19 offensive activities that you're saying in this document that they were.
20 That is an instruction to mislead the public; right? Yes or no?
21 A. Precisely as written here, Your Honours and Mr. Prosecutor.
22 Q. That is precisely yes, it is an instruction to mislead the
23 public; right?
24 A. I don't know why we would have any reason to deceive our public
25 in any way.
1 Q. One reason that you intended -- one reason you issued this order
2 to deceive the public in the -- at home and abroad, was you knew the
3 offensive activities of the VRS were controversial and prompted
4 international criticism; right?
5 A. I really cannot give an answer because I'm not aware of such
7 Q. Your evidence today, as you sit there, is you're aware of no
8 international criticism of the VRS during the war for its offensive
9 activities; is that right?
10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in this stage - so in this stage - I really
11 cannot recall that we had this information. I personally did not have
12 any information pertaining to the international public. I state that
13 with full responsibility.
14 Q. Do you recall as you sit there any international criticism of the
15 VRS or the Bosnian Serbs at all?
16 A. I recall individually some of these pieces of information that
17 were written up via the information department on the basis of listening
18 to the radio of Republika Srpska in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some part where
19 this criticism was being conveyed, too.
20 Q. How about coverage of the camps right around when you joined the
21 Main Staff? Do you recall international criticism of conditions in the
22 camps run by the VRS and other Bosnian Serb forces?
23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in relation to that I do remember because
24 precisely a day or two or three - I cannot remember exactly right now -
25 after I arrived in the Main Staff and joined the Army of
1 Republika Srpska, I was sent to report to the president of
2 Republika Srpska in Pale so that he could issue concrete orders to me and
3 that on behalf of the army I should accompany the ICRC and foreign
4 journalists when they visit prisons for prisoners of war. I think that
5 that was after one of the peace conferences. And I carried out that
6 mission; I remember that.
7 Q. Which camps did you visit?
8 A. The first day we visited -- it was towards the end of the day,
9 actually. We visited the prison of Kula in Sarajevo. That is in the
10 area that is nowadays called east Sarajevo. Then the next day, we
11 visited Keraterm, Trnopolje, and another prison, but I really cannot
12 recall the name. Perhaps if you could jog my memory. I certainly
13 wouldn't mind. But at any rate, it was those three.
14 What was proposed was that the prison in Batkovic and in
15 Batkovici -- Bijeljina too and also the one in Manjaca be visited, but
16 people from this convoy were not interested in visiting these prisons.
17 Q. You said you can't recall the name of the third prison. Would it
18 refresh your recollection if I said Omarska?
19 A. Yes, yes, Omarska.
20 Q. So at the beginning of your time in the Main Staff, you visited
21 Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, among other camps run by the Bosnian Serbs;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, the Chamber has received a great deal of evidence about
25 these visits. Earlier -- so I'm not going to go through them in detail.
1 But earlier I asked whether you recalled any international criticism of
2 the VRS or the Bosnian Serbs at all. You said you recalled some pieces
3 of information written up via the information department. Now, in fact,
4 there was an enormous amount of international condemnation of the
5 conditions in the camps that you visited together with these journalists
6 as a representative of the Main Staff; right?
7 A. Yes, as a member of the Main Staff who was not assigned a
8 particular duty until then. I want to say that these three camps that
9 you mentioned, with the exception of Kula, were under the control of -
10 what was it called then? - the Ministry of Interior something, the centre
11 of public security, and so on and so forth. The prison in Kula was under
12 the control of the army.
13 Q. And there had been preparations made by subordinate units
14 directed by the Main Staff to get the camps ready for these visits;
16 A. That I don't know, but of course there was a representative of
17 the government and a representative of the Ministry of Interior there,
18 along with me.
19 Q. You said you were sent to President Karadzic. Did you have any
20 discussions with other Main Staff officers about what was being done to
21 get ready for these visits or about what you would be likely to see on
22 these visits?
23 A. No. It was a brief issuing of an order by General Gvero. It was
24 a spoken order. I was supposed to report to the president of the
25 republic urgently, and I was supposed to take journalists and members of
1 the ICRC around, and all other instructions I will get from the president
2 of the republic.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31356.
4 Q. This is an order issued by Colonel Dragan Ilic, at the time the
5 commander of the East Bosnia Corps to the POW camp commander. We see
6 it's dated the 3rd of August, 1992. That's around the time of your
7 visit; right?
8 A. Maybe a day after the visit or the day when the visit was
9 supposed to take place. I quite simply cannot recall the date.
10 Q. Now, he is directing that prisoners over the age of 70 be
11 released. Were you aware at the time of your visit that the VRS was
12 detaining prisoners over the age of 70 in its camps?
13 A. I was in the Kula prison and I don't think I saw any elderly
14 persons there as prisoners. It's not that I think so; I'm sure.
15 Q. I'm going to ask again for an answer to my question. Were you
16 aware at the time of your visit that the VRS was detaining prisoners over
17 the age of 70 in its camps? Yes or no.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Detaining elderly people, people who visibly appeared to be
20 non-combatants, that's the sort of thing that would prompt the sort of
21 international condemnation that came as a result of the visits to and
22 coverage of the camps; right?
23 A. It would only be natural to expect that kind of condemnation. I
24 cannot give you an answer to that question because this was written by
25 the commander of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and I repeat once again that I
1 am more and more certain that we travelled on the second; that is,
2 Saint Ilijas day. That's when we were in Kula. And on the 3rd we were
3 in Prijedor.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'm going to move on. Before I do,
5 I'll tender this one.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31356 receives number P7393.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7393 is admitted.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Did Colonel Ilic later acquire a position in the Main Staff?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He became the chief of the sector for operations; right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What position did he get?
15 A. He became the head of the operations organ in the staff. The
16 operative staff of the Main Staff, actually.
17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P2879.
18 Q. Now, this is an order issued by General Mladic dated the 3rd of
19 August, 1992. See it's sent to the commander personally. It says:
20 "Pursuant to the agreement of political leadership of three BiH
21 peoples, reached at the recent negotiations in London and in goal of
22 preparation of the POW camps for visits and making possible for foreign
23 journalists and members of the International Committee of the Red Cross
24 to visit them."
25 He issues an order, first to:
1 "... undertake measures through the MUP and authorities to
2 arrange POW camps in your zones of responsibility and prepare them for
3 visits by foreign journalists and the International Committee of the Red
4 Cross team."
5 This the visit you took part in; correct?
6 A. I suppose so, yes.
7 Q. Looking at point 3, he notes:
8 "You will be additionally informed on the precise time of the
9 visit to POW camps. The tour started 3 August 1992 in the zone of
10 responsibility of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps."
11 Does that refresh your recollection as to the date of your visit
12 to Kula?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you were aware in the late summer/early fall of 1992, you and
15 the morale sector yourself were aware that the VRS was detaining people
16 it had no legal basis to detain; right?
17 A. I cannot say anything for sure because the organ for morale and
18 religious affairs to deal with prisons and POWs. Sometimes some
19 information would arrive as an indicator or factor that affected combat
21 Q. And that information that would sometimes arrive as a factor that
22 affected combat morale was that the VRS was detaining people it had no
23 legal basis to detain; right?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, or I'm not aware of any such
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, we had a few incidents yesterday about
4 speaking aloud. I gave you a last warning. I repeat that now and next
5 time will result in consequences.
6 Please proceed.
7 And, Witness, Mr. Sokanovic, you just focus on Mr. Traldi who is
8 examining you.
9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3951.
10 Q. This is a 1st Krajina Corps combat morale report for August 1992
11 dated the 3rd of September. General Gvero would have reviewed this
12 report personally and shared the contents with General Mladic and the
13 collegium; right?
14 A. I reviewed -- or, rather, he reviewed that. Now, he was supposed
15 to communicate that if he thought it was of significance, but that does
16 not necessarily mean that he did communicate that.
17 Q. Turning to the page 3 in the English and to page 4 in the B/C/S
18 under the category "The Effect of the Political and Security Situation in
19 the Territory on Combat Morale," so at the very bottom of the page in the
20 English, we read that the 1st Krajina Corps is reporting:
21 "Certain tensions are still present in the Kotor Varos, Kljuc,
22 Sanski Most and Prijedor areas," and we haven't scrolled quite far enough
23 down in the English yet, "because of a large number of arrested citizens
24 for whom there is no evidence or criminal reports that they participated
25 in the armed rebellion."
1 So General Gvero by this point -- at this point, 3rd of
2 September 1992, he's being informed by a subordinate corps that a large
3 number of people have been arrested with no legal basis; right?
4 A. That is what is written here, but it doesn't say who it was that
5 took them prisoner.
6 Q. The Chamber has received evidence that by this time most of them
7 were being detained at Manjaca, including some who'd been transferred
8 from facilities run by the police. Were you aware of that?
9 A. It was well known that the prison of Manjaca existed; however, in
10 this case, as can be seen from this text, it says here that the centre of
11 security services contributes to this situation headed by Drljaca. And
12 yesterday we discussed this. At the time, there were many paramilitary
13 formations that were prominent precisely in these places.
14 Q. Sir, I understand you're attempting to focus on the public
15 security station. At this point, my question is: Were you aware that
16 these people who'd been arrested and detained with no legal basis were
17 being detained at the VRS-run Manjaca camp, yes or no?
18 A. No.
19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I see it's time for the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It is time for the break.
21 Witness we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may now
22 follow the usher.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, could you inform the Chamber whether
3 you're on track as far as time is concerned.
4 MR. TRALDI: I am. And I should say that's based on what I've
5 been informed, which is that have I about 45 minutes left.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TRALDI: Assuming that, as usual, Madam Registrar is correct
8 in that regard, then I'm on track.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the information is correct.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: You may continue, Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. You mentioned one of the places you visited was Kula. I have a
14 couple of questions for you about it. First, was Radovan Karadzic on the
15 same visit to Kula you went on?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you aware of coverage in the international press of him
18 handing out a small number of discharge certificates on a visit to Kula
19 in early August 1992?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence that 10.000 or more
22 civilians passed through Kula, were detained there, were eventually
23 exchanged during the war. Is it your evidence that you don't know
24 anything about that either?
25 A. I don't know anything about it, no.
1 Q. The Chamber has also received evidence that days after your visit
2 to Omarska, the prisoners from Omarska were transferred to Manjaca and
3 that the people who were transferred included minors, people who were
4 elderly, people who were ill, people who, in the view of the Manjaca
5 guards, couldn't hold a gun let alone run or shoot. Did you see people
6 like that on your visit to Omarska?
7 A. When I went to Omarska, I did not attend any talks, but I did
8 have the opportunity to see some prisoners, among whom were people who
9 were, I would say, first of all, of a weak physical constitution.
10 Q. People who looked like they hadn't been getting enough food;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You saw people who looked like they hadn't been getting enough
14 food on your visit to Trnopolje too; right?
15 A. I was not in a position to see how much food they were getting.
16 Q. You were in a position to see them. They looked, they were of a
17 very weak, very thin physical constitution. In your words, they looked
18 like they hadn't been getting enough food; right?
19 A. Individually, yes, but not all.
20 Q. And the Chamber has received evidence that some of the ones who
21 looked that way had been transferred from Keraterm where you said you
22 visited. Were you aware, as the Chamber has received evidence, the
23 Main Staff was that a large number of prisoners had been killed at
24 Keraterm just about ten days earlier?
25 MR. LUKIC: I was patient enough. I object to this type of
1 questions, that the Chamber received the evidence. Is that question for
2 this witness? Should he comment on that, what chamber received? Or
3 should he answer anything when Chamber received evidence?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think it's reminding the witness. But,
5 Mr. Traldi, if you want to respond.
6 MR. TRALDI: As Mr. Lukic I thought said, but perhaps did not,
7 the same objection has been raised and ruled on by the Chamber before, I
8 think, in the context of Witness Dragojevic's testimony. It's a practice
9 that we've followed throughout the Defence case and Mr. Lukic has
10 objected a couple of times recently, but I think it's fair for the
12 MR. LUKIC: If there is an evidence that -- this evidence should
13 be shown to the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's not necessary. I -- unfortunately, you
15 don't understand in that respect. What you do is you tell the witness
16 that the Chamber is not blank on these matters but that we have received
17 information about it. Whether that's convincing or not, whether that
18 establishes facts or not, the question is not to comment on that
19 evidence. The question is: Are you aware that a large number of persons
20 were killed ten days before that, an event on which this Chamber has
21 received some evidence.
22 Now, the knowledge of the witness does not depend on the evidence
23 this Chamber receives.
24 MR. LUKIC: Why mention the evidence then?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could do without, and then in the next
1 question -- but in itself it's not improper to tell the witness that this
2 Chamber is not blank in this field, that we have received evidence,
3 whatever that evidence is.
4 That's my ruling. The witness may answer the question.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto who is educated, I would say, in the
7 system, would like to add something to my ruling.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The purpose for telling the witness the evidence
9 is to give the witness an opportunity to either confirm or deny that
10 evidence, and if he does confirm then you can follow -- you can close the
11 question, but if he does deny you can follow up to find out on what
12 basis. That's the reason.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But I informed this Chamber
14 that many of my witnesses complained that it is very confusing to them.
15 They don't know what to do if with that type of question.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's unfortunate if they are confused but that's
17 the procedure.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You could have explained it then what the situation
19 is as I explained it a minute ago to you, Mr. Lukic. The objection is
21 Witness, were you aware that some ten days before a large number
22 of people were killed in Keraterm? And again, this Chamber -- again,
23 this Chamber is not blank on the matter. We have received evidence
24 related to such an event.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've already answered
1 the Prosecutor's question. I did not have any knowledge about --
2 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the last few words of the
3 witness's answer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last few words. You said you
5 didn't have any knowledge about ...
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About ten days before the
7 International Red Cross arrived and the international journalists whom I
8 accompanied, that any killings of people were committed who were in
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, that massacre was included in a daily combat report to the
13 Main Staff. Is it your evidence that nobody at the Main Staff said,
14 "Okay, you're going to Keraterm. You should know people were killed.
15 You should know it's a recent massacre site." Nobody briefed you about
17 A. Yes, you are correct. Nobody told me that.
18 Q. Were the journalists taken to room 3 at Keraterm?
19 A. I don't know. I don't even know what room 3 is, and I cannot
20 recall any details.
21 Q. Did you go by a room with bullet-holes in the door?
22 A. I did not notice anything like that.
23 Q. And you didn't take them into a room where there were still
24 traces of blood, traces of an execution?
25 MR. LUKIC: Is it established that at the time when this
1 gentleman was there there were traces of killings still?
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's suggested in the question and the witness
3 can answer.
4 MR. LUKIC: No, no, did you take them to the room where there
5 were traces.
6 JUDGE ORIE: To a room, I think it was.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, to --
8 JUDGE ORIE: To a room --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- where traces --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- where there were traces. That's a perfectly
11 permissible question.
12 MR. LUKIC: But we don't know whether there were traces at the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness will tell us what he knows,
15 and there's a suggestion that there was a room with traces of blood.
16 Now, the witness can either confirm or deny that. It's not that it
17 should be established. By the way, this Chamber has not established any
18 facts at this moment about these matters. We do that at the end. We do
19 it in our judgement.
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, but we received --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the objection is denied. We'll continue.
22 Did you take them to a room in which there was traces of blood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not see traces
24 of blood in any room or in any facility. I don't know which room they
25 were taken to because in that part -- or actually, in all of those
1 prisons, the team was led by a member of the public security centre from
3 JUDGE ORIE: You yourself were not present in those rooms, if I
4 understand you well? In what, as you called them, prisons.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I was not present.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. I just have a couple of more questions on this topic, sir.
9 First, when you say "those three prisons," you mean Omarska,
10 Keraterm, and Trnopolje; right.
11 A. That's right. And I apologise. In my previous answer to
12 Mr. President, the Presiding Judge, not that I was not in any of the
13 rooms. I was in a restaurant, or the canteen, and I was in the office of
14 the prison warden.
15 Q. That's at Omarska; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I may have been confused by not knowing exactly what
18 prison or prisons the witness was talking about.
19 Could you -- if you say anything about either Keraterm or
20 Trnopolje or Omarska to make clear which of those facilities you are
21 referring to.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Now, you said you saw people who didn't -- who appeared they
25 didn't have enough food, people appeared in a weak physical condition.
1 Did you tell General Gvero about that when you got back to the
2 Main Staff?
3 A. When I returned to Pale, I drafted a report that I submitted to
4 the president of the republic.
5 Q. And did you also tell your superior?
6 A. I informed him about what I saw.
7 Q. And it would have been his responsibility to inform
8 General Mladic, inform the collegium of the Main Staff; right?
9 A. That's the way it should have been, yes.
10 Q. And there were people wearing military uniforms as guards, at
11 least at Trnopolje; right?
12 A. I think so, yes. It's an area around the school and some
13 construction material warehouse that was fenced in with a wire fence.
14 Q. And around that area, people wearing VRS uniforms serving as
15 guards; right?
16 A. During that period, the police and the army wore mostly
17 camouflage uniforms. In some situations, the police also had blue
18 uniforms as well as the camouflage uniforms. I think, even though I
19 cannot remember right now, that they had camouflage uniforms; although, I
20 cannot really state that with certainty.
21 Q. And you're aware the VRS did external security at Omarska; right?
22 The VRS was responsible for external security at Omarska.
23 A. No, I -- I don't know that. I didn't know that.
24 Q. Are you aware of any measures that your superior, General Gvero,
25 or anyone else on the Main Staff took after this visit to investigate,
1 for instance, the Prijedor Brigade commanders related to the VRS's
2 involvement in those camps?
3 A. I don't know if this happened. What I do know is that when we
4 were received by the Prijedor public security service -- centre chief, I
5 learned that those three prisoners [as interpreted] were under the
6 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Interior.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you say "those three prisoners," or did you
8 say "those three prisons"?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those three prisons, Keraterm,
10 Omarska, and Trnopolje.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. Now the Chamber has received a great deal of evidence about
14 Slobodan Kuruzovic who at the time was in charge of Trnopolje. Do you
15 recall if you met him?
16 A. I think that I'm hearing the name for the first time so that I
17 cannot really say if I met him or not.
18 Q. Did you meet the warden at Trnopolje? Yes or no.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He was wearing a green camouflage uniform; right?
21 A. Perhaps, but I'm finding it difficult to remember.
22 Q. I'm going to move away from Prijedor now. In fact, the VRS
23 continued detained civilians into 1993 and longer; right?
24 A. I don't know about that, or I just cannot remember that at this
1 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P6915.
2 Q. As it comes up, this is going to be an order by
3 General Milovanovic dated the 24th of April, 1993.
4 MR. TRALDI: And the document is P6915.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 6915 or 6195.
6 MR. TRALDI: 6915. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 6915.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Now, we see here, and we don't have the B/C/S, but it's an order
11 General Milovanovic is issuing to the various corps and the air force and
12 anti-aircraft defence to provide details of prisoners to the Main Staff
13 with the aim of conducting talks on the exchange of prisoners of war and
15 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have page 2 in the English only, and
16 it's the end of the text in the B/C/S.
17 Q. He's directing that lists be provided of "Muslim prisoners of war
18 and captured civilians in prisons of the RS."
19 Is it your evidence that you, though you were in the Main Staff
20 at the time, were not aware that there were captured civilians, captured
21 Muslim civilians, in RS prisons?
22 A. Yes, I've already answered that.
23 Q. Now, the Chamber has received a number of lists of prisoners kept
24 by subordinate units - for instance, P6804, P6805, and P7239 - that
25 reflected, among others, the detention of 100-year-old Muslim women. So
1 I'd put to you that it's clear from this document the Main Staff was
2 aware and that you are testifying today that are you not aware of
3 civilians being detained because you know it to have been unlawful.
4 That's the truth; right?
5 A. No. I'm just one of the members of the Main Staff, and in a
6 sector that as for POW camps, their keeping, their exchanges -- or rather
7 exchanges of prisoners, we had nothing do with that. I had nothing to do
8 with that.
9 Q. No corps commanders or corps assistant commanders for security
10 and intelligence were dismissed after the publicity about the terrible
11 criminal conditions in the camps, were they?
12 A. No. As far as I know, not a single one was dismissed. And I
13 assume, as far as the content of their work is concerned, there were
14 other omissions as well.
15 Q. And no guards were sentenced to terms of imprisonment in the VRS
16 military justice system, were they?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. In one of the lists of prisoners that contained elderly people
19 and Muslim civilians that I referred to, P7239, was the TG Visegrad list.
20 At the time, its commander was Dragisa Masal. He was also promoted to
21 serve at the Main Staff afterwards; right?
22 A. I don't know what year that was. I don't know from what year
23 that report is. General Dragisa Masal was then a colonel. He was not
24 promoted. He was transferred from that position to another position in
25 the Main Staff. The actual transfer did not mean that it was any kind of
2 Q. Do you have more authority as chief of artillery in the
3 Main Staff or as the commander of TG Visegrad?
4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it depends on the area involved. The commander
5 of the tactical group is the commander and he is sovereign, if I can put
6 it that way, in terms of the unit or units that he commands. And the
7 chief of a certain service is primarily in charge of the professional
8 management of that particular service in the army.
9 Q. Now, we've been talking about the detention of civilians. Your
10 view in your interview was that on all three sides people were reluctant
11 to talk about civilian victims and often described them as soldiers;
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. That's -- in your view, then, it was wasn't popular to make known
15 that there were civilian victims of the acts of the VRS or any of the
16 other parties to the conflict; right?
17 A. I don't know whether he was popular, as you had put it. I would
18 kindly ask you, if it's not a problem, to remind me of that particular
20 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32563, page 43 in the English and
21 54 in the B/C/S. And, actually, let's have 32563a but the same pages.
22 Q. And we see you're asked:
23 "What would happen if a crime against a large number of civilians
24 was committed? Would that case be handed over to the security
1 You say:
2 "Yes, I'm not sure whether directly to the security department or
3 directly to the prosecutor. Anyway, it had to be investigated and then
4 the measures undertaken. You have to be aware that all three sides
5 almost never spoke or very rarely spoke about, you know, the civilian
6 victims. Unfortunately, that's the reality. So usually everyone was,
7 you know, treated, referred to as the soldiers."
8 And you say:
9 "Sometimes that was right because soldiers throw away their
11 And you add that:
12 "Everyone knew the civilians were protected by the
13 Geneva Conventions."
14 First, do you stand by your answer in your interview that I've
15 just described?
16 A. Yes, precisely the last sentence that you read out confirms that.
17 Because people, I mean, were portrayed as civilians and they were
18 combatants in actual fact.
19 Q. Now, sir, you're focusing on a different part of your answer.
20 What you say in the beginning of the answer is that civilians would be
21 described as soldiers, all three sides almost never spoke about civilian
22 victims, and everyone was treated and referred to as soldiers.
23 First, do you stand by that portion of your answer?
24 A. I'm trying to find it now. It's at the very beginning.
25 Q. Should be the third, fourth, and fifth sentences.
1 A. Well, I'm counting the sentences now, and the third one says:
2 "Unfortunately, that is reality. And all were mostly treated as
3 combatants. Sometimes that was done rightly because when somebody would
4 get into a bad situation, they knew they would fair better if they threw
5 away their rifles and presented themselves as civilians."
6 And then further on, there is the part that refers to protection
7 by the Geneva Conventions.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now please read the sentence before the word
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, it says:
11 "You should know that all three sides almost never spoke about
12 civilian victims, and if so, very little. Everyone was treated and
13 referred to as soldiers."
14 This pertains to statements made to the media. And, of course,
15 such statements would disturb the public, and I presume that that is the
16 reason why that didn't -- that -- that there was no wish to show it that
17 way, as victims in that area. Civilians.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now listen to the next question.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. First, can I take it you stand by that portion of your answer as
21 truthful and accurate? Yes or no.
22 A. Yes, in the sense in which I spoke.
23 Q. Second, you've been doing the same thing this morning, denying
24 knowledge of civilian victims, because you know they're entitled to legal
25 protection because it could be disturbing, the same thing you did during
1 the war; right?
2 A. I don't actually understand your question. Please, could you
3 repeat it.
4 Q. Sure. Let me break it up.
5 First, the statements made to the media that you said -- in which
6 you said everyone was treated or referred to as soldiers, those were made
7 through the sector for legal, moral, and religious affairs; right?
8 A. This information went through that sector.
9 Q. And what I'm putting to you this morning is that your claims that
10 you didn't see the civilians, the elderly people who were detained at
11 some of the camps, that's part of the same policy, denying knowledge of
12 civilian victims, because, as you say in your answer, everyone knew they
13 were entitled to legal protection; right?
14 A. Knowing that they had the right does not mean that that was
15 denied. I'm telling that I did not know of that suffering, and this here
16 is a general question that has to do with information about conflicts.
17 Q. I'm going turn now to a few more statements made by the media
18 during the war.
19 MR. TRALDI: Can we have first 65 ter 32585.
20 Q. This is an article in the "New York Times" from May of 1993.
21 MR. TRALDI: If we could have the end of the article in both
23 Q. We read that General Gvero is quoted, and we don't have it quite
24 in the English yet. Or -- and at the very end, he says:
25 "We say everybody has to live on his own territory. Muslims on
1 Muslim territory, Serbs on Serbian."
3 "This is pure Serbian territory ..."
4 And if we look two paragraphs up, we see that the area being
5 described is the Drina valley, and they describe what had happened to the
6 property in that area, houses blasted by tank fire, mosques reduced to
8 First question: You were aware that your superior officer
9 considered this area to be purely Serbian territory; right?
10 A. Oh, I don't know. I had no way of knowing what my superior
11 officer was thinking.
12 On the other hand, I don't know which territory he means.
13 Perhaps he was in a village that was predominantly Serb. The territory
14 of the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina, the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, is like
15 a leopard skin, and there are differences, different ethnic groups, from
16 one village to another.
17 Q. And what General Gvero is saying everybody has to live on his own
18 territory, Muslims on Muslim territory, Serbs on Serbian. There were
19 plenty of mixed villages before the war -- there were plenty of mixed
20 territories. What he is saying is the ethnic groups in Bosnia should be
21 separated; right?
22 A. Not to be separated. Everybody should live in his own territory,
23 rather. And now if that territory borders on the neighbours' territory
24 that belongs to another group, they should live one by the other. It
25 doesn't mean that they have to be separated physically, and that was not
1 possible after all. Most mixed marriages in the former Yugoslavia were
2 in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. How can you
3 divide beds?
4 Q. In fact, it's exactly what happened. Not that beds were divided
5 but that villages that had been mixed became villages that had only one
6 ethnicity in them; right?
7 A. Mostly yes, but not in all cases.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32585 receives number P7394,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P7394 is admitted.
13 Mr. Traldi, you are coming closer and closer to your 45 minutes.
14 You're aware of that.
15 MR. TRALDI: I am. I think, with the Chamber's indulgence, I'll
16 finish at the end of the session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's more than the 45 minutes.
18 MR. TRALDI: Probably by a couple. Although, my math -- I admit
19 my math's gotten a little bit off during the session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we restarted at five minutes to 11.00. That's
21 45 minutes ago. I think there are a few minutes taken by the Judges.
22 Could you conclude in the next five minutes.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
24 Can we have 65 ter 05716.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 5-7.
1 MR. TRALDI: 1-6. It's correct in the transcript.
2 Q. Now, this isn't a statement to the press. It's an order signed
3 by Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic dated the 25th of April, 1995. His
4 brigade also responsible for an area of the Drina valley. And he writes
5 in pertinent part:
6 "The moment has come when the issue of liberating the Serbian
7 lands from Poturice will be finally resolved in this area by a resolute
8 and successful action of our forces."
9 And turning to page 2 in B/C/S, writes in pertinent part:
10 "The adequate response of our forces meant that we realised that
11 there would be no peace and security in Semberija and Donja Podrinje
12 until the Poturice were completely defeated and driven out of this area."
13 Now, this is a reflection of the same goal of separation that
14 Gvero was expressing being turned into a document at the brigade level;
16 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What's your objection, Mr. Lukic?
19 MR. LUKIC: What kind of separation we saw in the previous
20 document. I think it says Muslims on Muslim territory, Serbs on Serb
21 territory. What kind of separation we see there?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: We see obvious facial physical separation between
24 the Muslims who are supposed to live on the Muslim territory and the
25 Serbs who are supposed to life on the Serb territory.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now --
2 MR. LUKIC: Is that interpretation or we can see it in the
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's put to the witness that this is what this
5 document reflects and that's a proper question. The objection is denied.
6 Please proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not provide a full answer.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. And you're welcome to do so now, sir.
10 A. So I said no. This is a document of the commander of one
11 brigade. Unfortunately, we had commanders who did not follow the
12 positions of the Main Staff in terms of command and control and who would
13 sometimes deviate from these positions of the Main Staff.
14 This the first time I see this document. This the first time I
15 hear some of these expressions, and I cannot agree that it's the same as
16 what was quoted in one of those periodicals related to Gvero's statement.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender the document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5716 receives number P7395,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 Mr. Traldi, I verified with Madam Registrar. It's from now that
23 you have five minutes left, and then it's the 45 minutes. I'm strict
24 because of this week's agenda.
25 MR. TRALDI: I understand and I'm very grateful to both of you.
1 Q. Now the word "poturice," yes or no, as you've heard I have
2 limited time, that refers to Muslims; right?
3 A. Among part of the people, yes.
4 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3918.
5 Q. As it comes up, sir, during the war, your salary was paid out of
6 the 30th Personnel Centre; right?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just repeat the P number?
8 MR. TRALDI: P3918.
9 Q. Sir, could you answer the question, if you remember it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yes, your salary was paid out of the 30th Personnel Centre;
13 A. Yes, paid as part of the assistance of the Federal Republic of
14 Yugoslavia, and it was my family that received my salary so that they
15 could live at all.
16 Q. Now, this is an article entitled: "War for a Fair Peace,"
17 published in Srpska Vojska. If we turn to page 2 in the English, still
18 on page 1 in the B/C/S at the top of the third column, we see a reference
19 to a speech by General Mladic, and he says in pertinent part that:
20 "A part of our people was blinded by the idea of togetherness,
21 brotherhood, and unity."
22 Those are slogans from the old Communist area Yugoslavia that
23 referred to the idea that the various ethnic groups should live together;
25 A. Brotherhood and unity meant brotherhood and unity with the
1 Slovenes too, and there were very few of them in, say, Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 or Montenegro. So brotherhood and unity between Montenegrins and
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 3 in the English, 2 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. We read under the heading "Return of Unity" General Mladic
6 pointing out as a positive in the creation of Republika Srpska and the
7 army "the high patriotic awareness of the Serbian people" who, he says,
8 "had headed a call to join in defence from an Ustasha invasion," and he
9 says that "came as a result of the clearly defined goals of our struggle
10 at the Assembly Session of Republika Srpska held on the 12th of May,
12 First, like in the Srpska Vojska article we saw yesterday,
13 General Mladic is saying here that the goals of the war are clear; right?
14 A. It was very small, so I couldn't finds the relevant part.
15 However, I still stand by what I said; namely, that throughout the war
16 there was this objective aimed at the survival of the Serb people, life
17 in their own territory, freedom, and the establishment of lasting and
18 permanent peace. As for this, I do apologise to you. I didn't manage to
19 find it in the text so I barely heard what you were saying or, rather,
20 what the interpreter was interpreting.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, perhaps could the left part being enlarged.
22 I take it it's the first column somewhere in the middle, Mr.
23 Traldi, that you were reading from.
24 MR. TRALDI: It is. Just below the heading: "Return of Unity."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could that be enlarged so that the witness is
1 better able to read it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please read it? And could you also
4 read -- a reference is made to the Assembly Session of the
5 Republika Srpska of the 12th of May in relation to the clearly defined
6 goals, and could you consider whether what you told us were the
7 objectives are the ones that were clearly defined during this assembly
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to read it out loud,
10 this text?
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. You could just read it for yourself and then --
12 because you rightly expressed your concern that you couldn't read it.
13 Now you have read it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in your previous answer you referred to
16 goals as formulated by yourself, whereas here, in relation to the goals
17 of the struggle, a reference is made to the Assembly Session of the
18 Republika Srpska of the 12th of May. Those goals defined there and then,
19 are that the same as you mentioned in your answer previously?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Listed as at that session, no, but
21 the essence is in what I said.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. The goals listed at that session were the strategic objectives;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And finally, sir, later in this article, and I'm just going to
2 put the quote to you, President Karadzic is quoted, and he says this
3 generation of Serbs in the RSK and the Republika Srpska have the duty to
4 "save the Serbian people and once and for all avoid the danger of
5 extermination and create a state in which there will be none of its
7 Creating a state in which there would be none of what he termed
8 the Serb people's enemies, that meant what General Gvero said: Serbs
9 living on Serb territory, Muslims living on Muslim territory; right?
10 A. No. The enemy does not stand for people. The enemy is somebody
11 who fights against the system, against the state, or something else.
12 Here, I don't understand that as President Karadzic saying that other
13 peoples should not live in Republika Srpska but those who fight against
14 Republika Srpska cannot and should not live there. Those who do not
15 recognise that authority.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, your time is --
17 MR. TRALDI: It is, Your Honour, and I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
19 We'll take break.
20 Mr. Lukic, could you give us any indication -- but, first, we'll
21 ask the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you tell us how much time you would
25 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying to calculate. It's not easy. By this, I
1 had several objections now -- that I have to clarify with the witness
2 now. So I guess 15, 20 minutes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 15, 20 minutes. I add to this that the Chamber has
4 some concerns about hearing the evidence of all the witnesses this week.
5 It's a very tight schedule, and there's perhaps an option to have some
6 additional time on Thursday, extended session in the afternoon, but the
7 parties are urged to see that they strictly limit themselves so that we
8 don't have to send a witness away and then to see that witness back in
9 four weeks from now.
10 We take a break and will resume at quarter past 12.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
15 I do understand that neither party has major problems in having
16 an extended session, if need be, on Thursday, and we are -- although we
17 are preparing for it, of course, if we don't need it, it would be even
18 better. In the same vein, we'll also consider whether or not to start at
19 9.00 on Thursday which would perhaps --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Every day to gain some time, half an hour a day, and
22 that's before four weeks non-sitting, and it's also in the interest of
23 your witnesses, Mr. Lukic. And, of course, you came up with a very tight
24 schedule for this week. I'm not blaming you for it, but we have to deal
25 with it.
1 MR. LUKIC: Although I think it's more due to long
2 cross-examinations, not to our number of our witnesses. We brought only
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but all viva voce witnesses.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it was also intended that you perhaps
7 discuss with Mr. Mladic a start at 9.00 exceptionally and -- for a couple
8 of days.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sokanovic, you'll now be re-examined by
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sokanovic.
16 A. Good day, Mr. Lukic.
17 Q. My colleague Mr. Traldi said that by imposing the immediate
18 danger of war according to the ONO law, and -- one would move from
19 peacetime organisation into wartime organisation. Had the state of war
20 been declared, would the civilian organs of authority also switch to
21 wartime organisation?
22 A. Yes, they would.
23 Q. Actually, on the ground after you arrived to Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina in late July 1992, the territory controlled by the Army of
25 Republika Srpska, in practice, was it under a wartime organisation or did
1 the civilian organs and the army continue to act in accordance with
2 peacetime laws?
3 A. They acted according to peacetime laws.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at P7391 now, please.
6 Q. You were shown this document, the Srpska Vojska newspaper.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at page 2 in both
9 Q. At the bottom of the page here, in the B/C/S --
10 MR. LUKIC: And if we can go down in English version. Although
11 it was called the second page in English, we obviously have to go to the
12 third page in English, and it's the third paragraph from the bottom,
13 fourth on the screen from the top.
14 Q. [Interpretation] It states that General Milan Gvero says:
15 "Our greatest value is the unity of the political and military
16 leadership at all levels ..."
17 Can you please tell us what was General Gvero's relationship with
18 President Karadzic? Their personal relationship between General Gvero
19 and President Karadzic.
20 A. Well, if I could say it in the briefest possible terms, it was
21 bad overall, with quite frequent verbal disagreements and plenty of
22 dislike. Some parts of the leadership of the ruling party, for the most
23 part officers of the former Yugoslav People's Army, and particularly
24 General Gvero, because of his previous duties, believed that he was a
25 throw-back from the past and somebody who was a proponent of brotherhood
1 and unity and other values from the previous system.
2 Q. And did President Karadzic make any demands of General Gvero and
3 the Main Staff regarding their status?
4 A. Yes, there were a number of demands. First of all, there were
5 requests -- actually, not requests, orders that he should not appear in
6 the public information media. Then that he should be replaced and
7 pensioned off. And this was something that was explicitly stated twice:
8 Once at a session of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska in
9 Sanski Most; and for the second time at a session of the Assembly of
10 Republika Srpska in --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the place.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us the Assembly of Republika Srpska
13 was held where?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first assembly
15 session that I meant was in Sanski Most. And the second one was in
16 Banja Luka.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is the end of 1992, and we talked about it. Are you aware
20 that in 1993 President Karadzic scheduled a meeting regarding the
21 replacement of General Mladic?
22 A. Mr. Lukic, I don't know whether this was in the form of a
23 meeting, but I know that in 1993 the initiative came from the president
24 of the republic to replace the commander of the Main Staff, Ratko Mladic,
25 and then at least one more time there could have been another request
1 before that, but I remember this one very well because it came after the
2 fall of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina and the fall of the -- part
3 of the area of Republika Srpska, in the western part of Republika Srpska.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Can I consult with the witness?
6 JUDGE ORIE: You can consult with -- not with the witness but
7 with your client.
8 MR. LUKIC: My client, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, but at non-audible volume. Should that
10 be clear.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at page 7 of this
13 same document in the English version and page 5 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. This is an interview with General Mladic. You were asked about
15 the six strategic goals from his statement.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at the right-hand
17 upper column in the B/C/S version.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should enlarge it further. Yes, only focus on
19 the right column.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It's the middle one. We have the right one,
21 yeah. And it's the last paragraph in English version.
22 Q. [Interpretation] General Mladic compares the JNA and the Army of
23 Republika Srpska, but I'm not going to read the whole thing. But he says
24 about the Army of Republika Srpska:
25 "This is a people's army and a people's army cannot be defeated.
1 What is the source of the difference in the effectiveness and
2 organisation of these two armies? I would say that, apart from our army
3 having a clearer strategic goal, it is here to protect its own people.
4 The people are here and, just like its people, it has no place to
6 Does that correspond to what you understood to be the strategic
7 goals of the fight of the Army of Republika Srpska?
8 A. Yes, precisely.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P6646.
10 Q. This is your document from November 1994.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at page 2.
12 Q. Item 12, you were asked about the masking of offensive activities
13 and that the public was not informed about it. This was concealed from
14 the public and they were misinformed.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to page 1, item 1
16 of the document, please.
17 Q. Item 1 states:
18 "In the present context, point out the intensification of Muslim
19 offensive operations, their commitment to the war option, and the
20 hypocritical behaviour of the Croatian side in the civil war on the
21 territory of the former B and H."
22 At that time, in late 1994 thus, was this a misrepresentation of
23 the reality or was this an instruction about reporting truthfully;
24 namely, at that time, were there intensive Muslim offences ongoing at
25 that time and was their commitment to the war option clear?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer, please, Witness.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and precisely for this reason.
4 This instruction was written for the purposes of informing the public.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In paragraph 5 --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we need to look at page 2 in the
8 English version.
9 Q. -- where it states in paragraph 5:
10 "Point out the international community's double standards towards
11 the sides in the conflict ..."
12 Is this something that was misinformation or did it correspond to
13 the actual situation on the ground?
14 A. No, this was realistic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber - and I checked with my
16 colleagues - is puzzled by your questions. Because number 1 is about the
17 other parties' operations, whereas paragraph 12 is about Serb operations,
18 and there was no suggestion, as far as I understand, that in every
19 respect the instructions were always to -- to not tell the truth on all
20 things but specifically on offensive Serbian operations after having
21 masked them at a later stage to present them as defensive.
22 That is totally unrelated, as far as the Chamber understands,
23 with the matters you're raising now in your questions.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If the Prosecution can
1 stipulate that the rest of this information is truthful --
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not about -- these are instructions. What
3 the Prosecution did is to put to the witness that instruction number 12
4 was an instruction to give false information. They did not touch upon
5 the other instructions, whether that would be -- and so therefore,
6 there's no -- of course, if you want to stipulate, Mr. Traldi, you're
7 free to do that. But it is unrelated and there was no suggestion that
8 all the other instructions would lead to untruthful information. That
9 was not suggested in any way. Only 12 did. Let's leave it to that.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: But the whole document was introduced --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I said let's leave it to that, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: I have to continue with this document, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not saying you can't continue with the
15 document, but please put questions which are related to what was dealt
16 with in cross-examination.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Sokanovic, according to you, the other items in this
19 document, were they intended to misinform the public or was the intention
20 to inform the public properly?
21 A. The intention was to properly inform the public, and this
22 guidance was drafted as a supplement to the instruction about informing
23 the public, and it had to do with the actual or current political and
24 military situation in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Very well.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 now in B/C/S. Let
2 us look at paragraphs 9 and 12 in the English version.
3 Q. Was there an order issued by the president of the republic,
4 Mr. Sokanovic, about a ban on providing information in the media about
5 the movements, formation names, and insignia of VRS units?
6 A. Yes, there was.
7 Q. Revealing offensive activities, would that mean disclosing a
8 military secret?
9 A. Yes. And that was already indicated in previous documents, how
10 detrimental such things would be.
11 Q. What would you say? What was your intention? In paragraph 12,
12 were you implementing paragraph 9?
13 A. Yes, precisely.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Without leading, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's hard to not lead at least a bit and stay in a
17 JUDGE ORIE: You should properly examine the witness.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In 1994 in November, did the Army of Republika Srpska capture
20 anything on the ground?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who was carrying out offensive activities in 1994 in
23 November when this information was being sent, when this paper was being
25 A. Offensive activities were carried out by the so-called Army of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Croatian Democratic Council, and in that
2 period, that is to say, just before this, they took about 250 square
3 kilometres of territory of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us just look at P6915 now, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just say the number, please, again, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's P6915. [Interpretation] We had the same
7 problem with calling up this document when my colleague Mr. Traldi was
8 calling it.
9 Q. So we have a document of the Main Staff of the Army of
10 Republika Srpska before us. It's dated the 24th of April, 1993. The
11 name of General Manojlo Milovanovic is typewritten at the bottom of the
12 document. Lists are being required of different POWs and detained
14 Do you know that in the territory of Republika Srpska there were
15 civilian prisons?
16 A. There were prisons under the control of the Ministry of the
18 Q. You were asked a lot about prisons and camps. Apart from that
19 visit a few days after you arrived in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 yet again from Serbia, did you have any duties that had to do with
21 prisons and camps in territory that was under VRS control?
22 A. No, I did not have any such duties.
23 Q. Did you have any duties related to the interrogation of detained
24 persons, or was this within somebody else's purview?
25 A. No, this does not belong to the sector for morale and religious
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness repeatedly told us this in
3 response to the questions put by Mr. Traldi, so to that extent it's
4 repetitious and it's not -- please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I have one more question.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sokanovic, just this. Do you know which
7 prisoners General Milovanovic was asking for through this document that
8 is before us?
9 A. Mr. Lukic, I said I think a moment ago that this was the first
10 time I'm seeing this document. Now I managed to look at it a bit more,
11 and I see that information is being requested about prisoners of war,
12 Serbs from the territory of Republika Srpska that are in the prisons of
13 the Republic of Croatia and Herceg-Bosna and Serb and Montenegrins from
14 the territory of the former SRBiH and national minorities from the
15 territory of Yugoslavia that are in the prisons of the Republic of
16 Croatia and Herceg-Bosna but were members of the JNA, then civilians who
17 are in prisons in the Republic of Croatia and Herceg-Bosna, then
18 civilians from the territory of the former BiH that are in the villages
19 and towns of the Republic of Croatia and Herceg-Bosna, then captured
20 Croatian civilians from the territory of the Republic of Croatia and
21 Herceg-Bosna who are in prisons of Republika Srpska.
22 Q. All right. You read that from the document. But do you know
23 which prisons General Milovanovic was referring to? Did you talk to him
24 about that? Do you have any personal knowledge about this activity?
25 A. I did not talk to him.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's just look at a document
3 briefly, P7395.
4 Q. This is a document of the Command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.
5 It's signed by Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
6 You were asked what the word "poturice" meant. In the first
7 paragraph, from the very beginning, it says:
8 "The moment has come when the issue of liberating the Serb lands
9 from Poturice will finally be resolved in this area by a resolute and
10 successful action of our forces. Obviously, the enemy cannot be allowed
11 to bring into question the fate of the Serb people in this area anymore
12 by countless violations of truces signed to date."
13 Who is it that is violating the truces? The soldiers of the
14 other side or civilians?
15 A. Soldiers, of course. How could civilians do that? They do not
16 have the force to do that, and they are not signatories.
17 Q. All right. Let us now read the second part that was read out to
18 you, the beginning of the second page in B/C/S.
19 MR. LUKIC: It's pretty condensed in English version.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The part that was quoted was the lower part.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's beginning --
22 JUDGE ORIE: "Adequate response..."
23 MR. LUKIC: -- at the beginning of the first page and it goes
24 onto the second page.
25 Q. [Interpretation] This is what was put to you:
1 "The adequate response of our forces meant that we realised that
2 there would be no peace and security in Semberija and Donja Podrinje
3 until the Poturice were completely defeated and driven out of this area
4 in the fight for a single Serb territory. Our response to the enemy
5 offensive enemy combat operations have been going on for one month in our
6 brigade's zone of responsibility."
7 When you read this in context, how would you understand the word
8 "poturice" here? Does it refer to Muslim civilians --
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. -- or their military forces?
11 A. What is meant here is military forces. Because it is against
12 them that the offensive was taking place or, rather, it was a response to
13 their offensive, and it says in the next sentence that this is a
14 responses to their offensive.
15 Q. Now let us go back to page 1 of this version.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Line 11 in B/C/S. And the last
17 third -- the fifth line from the bottom of the first paragraph in the
18 English version. It starts with the word: "And ..."
19 Q. This is what it says. I quote:
20 "And so the Poturice launched an all-out offensive against
21 Majevica and Vlasic and other strategic features and areas in
22 Republika Srpska."
23 So this part, does it have to do with the military or civilians?
24 A. It is only military forces that can launch an offensive. So it
25 is the army, not civilians.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sokanovic. That is all we had. Thank you.
2 A. Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, do you have any further questions?
5 MR. TRALDI: I do. Less than ten minutes. I'll be brief.
6 MR. LUKIC: And we have one translation issue, I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's first hear that one.
8 MR. LUKIC: In this part -- I was just warned by my colleague
9 Ivetic that in this part it says "Muslims" not "poturice." So it was
10 actually --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Where is that in?
12 MR. LUKIC: It's --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the right page in both B/C/S and
14 English? Because the word "poturice" is mentioned several times in the
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Are we still on page 1?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which line in B/C/S? To be compared with which line
20 in ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. LUKIC: No, we have to -- we stand corrected.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You stand corrected. Okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
1 Mr. Traldi.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
3 Q. Stay on this document, sir. Second paragraph,
4 Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic or in Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic's
5 document, we read:
6 "We must dash for all time their hope of creating a Muslimanija
7 extending to the Drina and the Sava and make it possible for our people
8 to return to their centuries-old homes, Vitinice, Rastosnice, and other
9 Serbian places in the area."
10 MR. TRALDI: Now, can we have 65 ter 02559, page 296. In the
11 B/C/S. 296 in the B/C/S.
12 If we go to line 28, we see Vitinice. And if we turn to the next
13 page for the 1991 numbers, we see on the left side the columns and the
14 headings total persons, Croats, Muslims, Serbs. If we scroll down to
15 line 28, we see that before the war Vitinice was a village comprised of
16 2900 [Realtime transcript read in error "2800"] Muslims, about 200 Serbs.
17 Q. So the homes that Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic is saying "our
18 people should be able to return to," those are homes that at the
19 beginning of the war were inhabited by Muslims; right?
20 A. Well, this is the first time I'm seeing this, so it's hard for me
21 to give any comment. But again, I'm saying it would be best to ask
22 Mr. Pandurevic what it was that he meant. But homes do not date back
23 only to the Second World War. There are some that date back to before
24 that, that are older than that.
25 Q. So do you --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a correction for the transcript. In line 16
2 of page 58, Mr. Traldi said "2900" Muslims.
3 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. So what you said just now, are you agreeing with
5 Colonel Pandurevic that it would appropriate for villages that had been
6 Serb at the Second World War, before the Second World War, even older
7 than that, to be made Serbian again as a result of operations conducted
8 in 1995?
9 A. No, I do not agree. I think - and that's what I've been
10 explaining all along - that the territory of Republika Srpska should not
11 be populated by the Serb people only, and the territory that would be
12 under the political leadership of the Croat people should not be
13 populated by Croats only. And the same goes for the third sides. And
14 that is not possible even if somebody wanted to do that.
15 Q. Your Honours, I won't tender this. I assume my colleague agrees
16 that I've correctly recited the pre-war census figures for this village?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, no problem as far as that is concerned?
18 That's on the record.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Mr. Lukic asked you about your order in November 1994 to
22 maximally mask offensive activities and present them at their advanced
23 stages as defensive or as counterattacks. First, did I correctly
24 understand your answer that in giving that instruction you understood
25 yourself to be implementing an order from the supreme commander,
1 President Karadzic?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it's not clear to me which instruction you -- you
3 mean, because very different instructions would come from the president
4 of the republic, Mr. Karadzic.
5 Q. Well, you issued an instruction to mask offensive activities
6 maximally, you issued an instruction to present them at the advanced
7 stages as counter-attacks or -- part of the natural right to
8 self-defence. On re-direct, you said you had believed yourself to have
9 been implementing point 9 in the same document, an order from Karadzic
10 about military secrets. So I want you to confirm now that in ordering
11 the offensive activities to be masked maximally, presented as defence,
12 you were implementing an order from Karadzic; right?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, first of all, I cannot order anybody. I don't
14 have that authority. I could give guidance or instructions. The
15 document refers to a document by the president of the republic,
16 Mr. Karadzic, and I assume that it was drafted on the basis of what was
17 written in that order.
18 As for the masking, masking is one of the measures used to
19 protect secret data about the deployment, size, strength, intentions --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was this what you asked, Mr. Traldi? The second
21 part not.
22 You have answered the question.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Finally, sir, Mr. Lukic asked you about the relationship between
25 President Karadzic and General Mladic and President Karadzic and
1 General Gvero. Those generals kept their positions on the Main Staff
2 throughout the war; right? Yes or no.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, could we have P3076, page 18 in English and 13 in B/C/S.
5 As it comes up, I'll remind you of the article we saw on
6 cross-examination where President Karadzic noted the duty of the Serbian
7 people to avoid the danger of extermination and create a state in which
8 there will be none of its enemies.
9 Now, we need page 18 in the English. This is part of the
10 transcript of the 37th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
11 General Mladic is speaking, and he says at the end of this long
12 paragraph --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first give an opportunity to the witness to
14 find it and to be able to follow your reading, Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: And I'd --
16 JUDGE ORIE: And if you then slowly read it.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. The end of this long paragraph, we read General Mladic say:
19 "The next thing is that this is our historical chance to create a
20 state. Not any kind of state, but an all-Serbian state of a round shape
21 with access to the sea and horogravske and horografske facilities and as
22 little enemies as possible, those who could be our potential enemies and
23 raise against us again in a few years."
24 Sir, what I'm putting to you is regardless of any temporary
25 disagreements that you may have mentioned on re-direct, when it came to
1 what mattered, the purpose of the war, President Karadzic and
2 General Mladic were in such lockstep that they described that purpose in
3 almost the same terms. That's the truth; right?
4 A. I cannot confirm that this in case because then I would need to
5 read the entire speech. Because one sentence, even if it's in agreement
6 with the other person, in this case the president of the republic, does
7 not mean that there wasn't a conflict between them. I stand by my words
8 that there were serious clashes.
9 Q. I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
11 Mr. Sokanovic, this concludes your testimony. I would like to
12 thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
13 answered all the questions that were put to you, questions put to you by
14 the Defence, by the Prosecution, by the Bench. I wish you a safe return
15 home again. You play follow the usher.
16 Mr. Mladic, I again and again have to emphasise that you should
17 not speak aloud.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, may I take it that you'll examine the
20 next witness.
21 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour, and he should be in
22 stand by in the room.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what would you prefer, to take the break
24 now so that to -- and then that we would resume at 1.30 so that you have
25 an uninterrupted 45 minutes, or would you like to start for five minutes?
1 MR. IVETIC: I think the first option is more agreeable so we
2 have an uninterrupted ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first and we'll resume at
5 --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the next witness to be escorted in
8 the courtroom.
9 Mr. Lukic, I understand that the Defence has problems with
10 extended sessions.
11 MR. LUKIC: Although I said -- yes, Your Honour. Although I said
12 at the beginning that we do not have a problem, I was reminded that we
13 have scheduled a lot of meetings before we depart for our field trip. We
14 travel on Saturday to investigate Tomasica, and we have to have really
15 many meetings on Thursday and Friday already scheduled.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I had as well. I moved them in order to --
17 MR. LUKIC: We do not have where to move them. We will be absent
18 for a month.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, Mr. Lukic. I do understand that your schedule
20 is so busy that's not even a way to move for two hours. I leave it to
21 that at the time being.
22 The parties are invited to further discuss whether they can fit
23 the examination of the remaining witnesses of this week within an agreed
24 time schedule. Again, the Chamber is available for extended sessions on
25 Thursday. If not, then, of course, you should take measures so as to not
1 leave a witness here for four weeks.
2 MR. LUKIC: What we wanted to inquire with the Prosecution,
3 probably that should be a topic of our conversation, is we might send one
4 witness back.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that should be the last-resort solution but
6 finally it might come to that.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it's not very polite to continue with our
9 conversation when you enter the courtroom. Mr. Pajic, I presume.
10 Mr. Pajic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
11 you -- yes. Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you give a
12 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite to
13 you make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: VELO PAJIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Witness, please be seated. You'll first
19 be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find Mr. Ivetic to your left, standing.
20 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
21 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Can first my colleague
23 Mr. Lukic be excused. He has to attend to something and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one of his meetings perhaps. Yes, you are
25 excused, Mr. Lukic.
1 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Good day, Mr. Pajic. I would ask you to state your full name so
4 that we can have it properly entered into the trial record.
5 A. First of all, I would like to greet all those present in the
6 courtroom. I am Velo Pajic. I come from Rogatica, Republika Srpska,
8 Q. And, sir, have you testified previously at this Tribunal as a
10 A. Yes, in November 2008 in the Popovic case.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, I note that in the summary provided
12 the witness was born in the 11th century; is that correct?
13 MR. IVETIC: That's definitely an error. Without having it in
14 front of me, but I'm sure it's an error. I will address that with the
15 witness, Your Honours.
16 Q. Sir, could you tell us where and when you were born?
17 A. I was born on the 28th of July, 1960, in Rogatica, the
18 then-Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. And, sir, can you briefly outline for us the educational
20 institutions that you attended, both civilian and military in nature?
21 A. I completed elementary school in 1975 in Borike near Rogatica,
22 and then I completed the secondary military school of the land forces in
23 Belgrade, the communications section of that school.
24 Q. And upon completion of your education, did you become a member of
25 the military?
1 A. Yes. Upon completion of my schooling, I joined the
2 Yugoslav People's Army, and my rank was sergeant.
3 Q. Okay. What were your total years of service within the military
4 during your career?
5 A. I spent the period from 1979, from the 18 -- until the 18th of
6 May, 1992 in the Yugoslav army, not counting the years of my schooling.
7 That was the period I spent in the Yugoslav People's Army. Then I was in
8 the Army of Republika Srpska from the 18th of May, 1992, until the 1st of
9 April, 1995. Then I spent the rest of my time until retirement in the
10 Podgorica garrison --
11 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter kindly asks the witness to
12 repeat the other information.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Could you repeat the date when you stopped serving in the Army of
15 Republika Srpska? I believe that is what is needed.
16 A. Until the 1st of April, 2002.
17 Q. The date when you left the Army of Republika Srpska. Was that
18 2002 or some other date?
19 A. Yes, 2002.
20 Q. Okay. And what was the highest rank that you attained prior to
21 your retirement?
22 A. The highest rank was captain. I was captain when I retired.
23 Q. Okay. And how did your service in the VRS end?
24 A. From the 18th of May, 1992, until the 1st of April, 2002, I
25 served in the 67th Communications Regiment of the Main Staff of the Army
1 of Republika Srpska performing the duties of commander of the 2nd Platoon
2 of the frequency-carrying devices of the 4th Communications Garrison. I
3 served in the special purpose facility Goljak 1, or G-1 for short.
4 Q. In April of 2002 when you left the VRS, where did you go? You
5 indicated that you were in a garrison in Podgorica. Could you repeat
6 where you went and where you retired?
7 A. Once I completed my term in the Army of Republika Srpska, on the
8 1st of April, 2002, I went to the Podgorica garrison as commander of a
9 radio-relay node which was located in the Lofcin [phoen] facility near
10 Podgorica, and then on the 31st of December 2003 I was relieved of that
12 Q. And within which armed forces was that?
13 A. The Army of Yugoslavia, and then it was renamed as the Army of
14 Serbia and Montenegro.
15 Q. Now I want to take you back to the beginning of 1992 when
16 tensions broke out in Sarajevo. To what post or position were you
17 assigned within the JNA at that time?
18 A. Once I completed military school, I went to work at the garrison
19 in Sarajevo military post 1519. And then I worked at the Secretariat for
20 National Defence --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Sir, [Interpretation] could you please speak more slowly so that
24 the interpreters could catch what are you actually saying.
25 A. Very well. So after 1985 I was sent to Konjic where special
1 purpose facilities were located, which were maintained by my unit, the
2 one from military post 1519, where I remained until 1992, the 9th of May,
4 The special purpose facilities, if I may clarify, were intended
5 for the command and control of the armed forces of the former SFRY in war
6 time by the Presidency, so it was the facility -- DILJ0 was the war time
7 command post of the former Yugoslavia. At the time, the -- a facility
8 D-1 was also there. It was a radio-relay station which was linked with
9 D-0, and the distance between them was 1.5 kilometres.
10 Q. [In English] And as far as D-0 is concerned, what kind of
11 military structure or building was that?
12 A. I already said that these were special purpose underground
13 facilities where there were rooms located for control and command, where
14 the communications centre was situated, and the engine and electrical
15 facilities for the operation of the facility in special circumstances.
16 Q. And what, sir, were your precise duties within the special
17 purposes facility DILJ0 or D-0 at Konjic?
18 A. I was the commander of the section. My task was to maintain the
19 telephone devices and the main frequency-carrying devices.
20 Q. Was feature D-0 operational or functional prior to the outbreak
21 of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. D-0 was operational. I think it began to work in Trnovo and it
23 was first launched in 1981.
24 Q. Okay. How long in 1992 did you stay at that post, the feature
25 D-0, at the Konjic garrison?
1 A. In 1992, sometime in early 1992, I was transferred to the T-1
2 facility because I completed higher school and I received the rank of
3 second-lieutenant. So I'm talking about the D-1 facility, which is
4 1 kilometre or 1.5 kilometres away. I was the commander of that
5 facility. I stayed there until 9th of May, 1992.
6 Let me just remind you that D-0, D-1, and T-1 were facilities
7 which were encircled by the Croat-Muslim forces. The encirclement lasted
8 sometime from February until the 9th of May when we managed to pull out
9 from the encirclement. We had to leave that area on foot. There were
10 about 38 of us senior officers, and we were joined on the way by
11 civilians, women, children, and then we reached another sector.
12 So I repeat again: We passed through the lines of the enemy
13 forces, of the KOS forces and the Green Berets, and we came to the
14 Bijelasnica mountain, from where we were transferred to the command of
15 the 398th Brigade by choppers in the evening on the 9th of May, 1992.
16 Q. During the time-period that were encircled by these forces from
17 February until the 9th of May, how did you and others that were at that
18 location survive in terms of supplies and food and the like?
19 A. During the last month, it was very difficult. Let me just remind
20 you that those facilities were being supplied with food for the next six
21 months. So this happened in November. Since this was already May, it
22 meant we were running low on food, and there were many more of us than
23 during peacetime periods so that we were forced to eat mouldy crackers
24 and there were some other dry foods that we had to eat, just basic
1 Q. You indicated that eventually the -- you were transferred by
2 choppers to the command of the 398th Brigade. Could you tell us in what
3 city that brigade command is located where you were transferred by
5 A. The brigade command. Earlier there were three communication
6 regiments, later this 398th Brigade was formed. Its seat was in
8 Q. Now, in terms of the JNA personnel that had been under
9 encirclement with you at the facility T-1 who were withdrawn to Belgrade
10 by helicopters, what was the ethnicity of those personnel?
11 A. At that time all the ethnic groups were represented there. There
12 were ethnic Croat, ethnic Muslims. We had ethnic Albanians there as
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That is to say, we all got out of there together, including these
16 civilians that joined us. They were taken to the garrison in Belgrade,
17 all of that by helicopter.
18 Q. And how long did you stay in Belgrade?
19 A. I stayed in Belgrade from the 9th of May in the evening until the
20 18th of May, 1992.
21 Q. And where did you go after the 18th of May, 1992?
22 A. After that day, I was transferred in a service vehicle to
23 Han Pijesak, the area of Crna Rijeka.
24 Q. Okay. And just to complete the circle, to which unit did you
25 belong at the time that you were in Crna Rijeka after the 18th of May,
2 A. The unit where I served in Crna Rijeka from the 18th of
3 May onwards was the 67th Communications Regiment of the Main Staff of the
4 Army of Republika Srpska, the company for communications for garrison
5 communications, the commander of the 2nd Battalion for frequency-carrying
7 Q. Now, as commander of this 2nd Platoon within the
8 67th Communications Regiment, can you tell us what the strength in terms
9 of manpower of that platoon was in reality when you became its commander?
10 A. It was just me on my own, one.
11 Q. Did the manpower of that platoon change during the duration of
12 the war and the duration of your time at Crna Rijeka?
13 A. Well, I don't know. Actually, yes, later. I got this soldier
14 who was doing his military service all the time, so basically it was I
15 and that soldier who were there, in that platoon.
16 Q. Now, what was the manpower strength of that platoon supposed to
17 be per establishment protocol?
18 A. According to establishment, about 25.
19 Q. Now, you already told us earlier that you were at the Goljak 1
20 feature. Could you tell us what is the Goljak 1 feature? What kind of a
21 structure or installation is it?
22 A. Goljak 1, abbreviated as G-1, was a special purposes facility.
23 They were called D and M and G features, and they were envisaged for
24 command and control in wartime conditions; specifically, G was envisaged
25 as the command post in wartime of the then-7th Army.
1 Q. And which command post of the 7th Army of the former SFRY forces
2 was this feature Goljak 1 intended to be?
3 A. Goljak was in Han Pijesak in the area of Crna Rijeka. That's
4 about 8 kilometres away from Han Pijesak. And the command post of the
5 7th Army was in Zlatiste in Sarajevo - the war time command post, I
7 Q. What were your precise duties within this position as commander
8 of the 2nd Platoon within the 67th Communications Regiment?
9 A. My duties were to establish and maintain radio relay and wire
11 Q. And how long did you spend working at this same physical location
12 at that same position?
13 A. Ten years. Or, rather, nine years, ten months, approximately.
14 The 18th of May, 1992, until the 1st of July, 2002. Almost ten years.
15 Q. Did your duty post or position title ever change?
16 A. Yes. In 1999, I became commander of the G features. I'm saying
17 G features because there was also G-2 and G-3; in addition to G-1, that
19 Q. Were these additional features G-2 and G-3 outfitted and
20 operational during the time-period of the war; that is to say, from 1993
21 to 1995?
22 A. G-2 was partly equipped; that is to say, there were certain
23 premises but the communications were not installed. Also, the bathroom
24 facilities did not function. And G-3, the building was just set up but
25 it was not properly outfitted.
1 Q. Okay. I'd like to take a look together at a Prosecution exhibit,
2 P6848 in e-court. Sir, when that comes up on your monitor, I'll ask you
3 first if you recognise what is depicted in that picture.
4 MR. IVETIC: If we could perhaps have just one copy and enlarge
5 it, that might assist us all.
6 Q. Sir, do you recognise what is depicted in this picture?
7 A. Yes, I do. This is the overground building of G-1, and it was
8 called Vila Javor.
9 Q. Now you say this is the overground building of G-1. Where in
10 relation to this building that we have on our screen is the entrance to
11 the underground facility of G-1?
12 A. This facility was used not only in this case but in all other
13 such cases. It was just used as a disguise for entering the underground
14 facility. You enter through this door or through the garage door, and
15 then you would go further on into the underground facility, G-1.
16 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to ask you what kind of communications
17 systems were available to the Main Staff of the VRS at Crna Rijeka at
19 A. In G-1, there was an automatic telephone exchange that was called
20 OM 60/250, automatic three digit numbers. And then there was also an
21 exchange table, as we called it, for communication between direct and
22 automatic connections. Then there was also a room where there were
23 telephones, or rather frequency-carrying devices. Then there was a room
24 where telegraphs were, teleprinters, and also the encryption station.
25 Teleprinter encryption station.
1 Q. And just to be clear, where was the command of the Main Staff of
2 the VRS located at Crna Rijeka?
3 A. The command of the Main Staff was a kilometre away from this
4 Vila Javor facility. It was in prefabricated buildings about 1 kilometre
5 away from this facility, and the commander of the Main Staff,
6 General Mladic, was in Vila Javor, that facility.
7 Q. What kinds of communications technology were available to the
8 Main Staff during the war to communicate with those outside of
9 Crna Rijeka?
10 A. There was a communications system and these were wire
11 communications, radio communications, and radio-relay communications.
12 Q. Okay. I would like to first focus on radio-relay communications,
13 the last one you mentioned. Could you briefly explain for us how those
14 functioned and -- to describe the difference between radio-relay
15 communications and radio communications which was the second of the items
16 that you identified?
17 A. Radio-relay communications were used for transmitting speech and
18 written material through wireless telecommunications, through
19 electromagnetic waves that were modulated at higher frequencies, and
20 through antennae they were transmitted to the other side. In order -- I
21 mean, I a radio relay devices, I mean, the ones that we had at the time
22 in that period were as follows: RRU-800, FM-200, SNC-1306B, and RRU-1.
23 Those were the types that we had, and there had to be other equipment
24 plugged into that. Now, it depends on whether these were protected or
25 unprotected communications.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness start
2 again now with the specific communications.
3 MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. The interpreters could not follow the last part of your answer.
5 Could you please repeat the last part after you identified RRU-1. And
6 then you said that the difference in relation to other equipment is, and
7 then could you please complete what it was that you were trying to say.
8 A. I listed the types of equipment. Once again --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
10 slow down. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you should really slow down. Otherwise,
12 parts of your words will be lost.
13 I leave it in your hands, Mr. Ivetic, where to resume.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, if you could resume speaking slowly. You had just finished
17 talking about the RRU-1 and said it depended on equipment that could be
18 attached to all these RRU devices, whether they were protected
19 communications or ...
20 And that is where we lost the translation, so if could you please
21 take up your answer from approximately there and repeat it, this time
22 more slowly, so that the interpreters can catch every word.
23 A. Very well. So there were two types of radio-relay
24 communications. There was one type that were protected and the other
25 type that were unprotected. Protected radio-relay communications were
1 between radio-relay stations, and this also goes for unprotected ones.
2 It was 50 kilometres.
3 In order for protected communication to be communicated, we need
4 FM-200, then antennae, then AND 310, and of course a generator.
5 In order to have unprotected communication, analogous, we also
6 need two radio-relay communication stations 50 kilometres away. We need
7 a proper signal; that is to say, an excellent signal that can guarantee
8 communication. Everything else could be a problem for relaying written
9 communication and speech. For that, we would need RRU-800, SNC-1306B,
10 12K and V120.
11 Again, I'm saying that their frequency for RRU-800 and for FM-200
12 is from 610 to 960 megahertz. For SNC, it is a higher frequency, 4.400
13 to 4.600 megahertz and from 4.800 to 5.000 megahertz.
14 Q. Now, in relation to the radio-relay communications between the
15 Main Staff and subordinated units, were those of the -- of the encrypted
16 and protected or of the open type or unprotected type that you have
18 A. Between the Main Staff and subordinated units, it went without
19 saying; that is to say, the logistic command post, the staff units of the
20 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, then the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Presidency, the Army of Yugoslavia, we had
22 both. That is to say, we had protected and unprotected types of
23 radio-relay communications.
24 Q. You've listed several, and I'm looking at the transcript, what
25 about the radio-relay communications between the Main Staff and the
1 Drina Corps?
2 A. Yes, I forgot to mention that. There was also radio-relay
3 communication with -- along two relay routes. One was protected and the
4 other one was unprotected. This one, the unprotected one, was RRU-800,
5 RM4, where the frequency distribution of channels 3- to 800 kilohertz,
6 and the protected one functioned, and the number was 0674, and the
7 previous one was 0607.
8 Q. And now between the unprotected and the protected radio-relay
9 routes between the Main Staff and the Drina Corps, for what type of
10 communications was each used during the war?
11 A. The secured route, 0674, which after the change, because of the
12 same direction on the neighbouring facility was changed to 0658, operated
13 eight protected channels. This was done on the relay device FM-200.
14 Multi-challenge device with a time distribution or frequency binary or
15 secured transfer of the channel. These eight channels were connected
16 directly to channels to an intercom or a telephone exchange on the other
17 side. The commander of the Main Staff of the Drina Corps. The second
18 channel was the operations centre of the Main Staff of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska, the operations centre of the Drina Corps. The third
20 channel was the exchange of the Main Staff of the RS, the exchange of the
21 Drina Corps. And then the fourth channel was used for an automatic
22 telephone number from the existing exchange, which was at the G-1
23 facility, 332, that was the phone number. The telegraph had an
24 alternative. The telegraph communications were -- meaning the transfer
25 of written information, since they were secured, encrypted, where the
1 data was processed, they could be transferred either through the analog
2 or the digital system. So if one route was cut, we had an alternate
3 route where this could function.
4 So let me go back to these encrypted telegrams. They were
5 protected on the digital and the analogue route, and all of that was
6 processed in the range from 600 to 900 megahertz. Now, I'm talking about
7 the FM-200 and the RRU-800 devices.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I need one minute before we adjourn so,
9 therefore --
10 MR. IVETIC: Let's stop here then.
11 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day soon. We'd like to see you
12 back tomorrow morning, 9.30 in this same courtroom. Before you leave, I
13 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about
14 your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether
15 it's testimony still to be given tomorrow or even the day after tomorrow.
16 If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to briefly move into private session.
21 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber would like to hear from the parties if there's any
12 conclusion as far as scheduling for this week is concerned, because we
13 were about, on the basis of what -- of the information provided by the
14 Defence, to start organising an extended session for Thursday, but that
15 seems to be uncertain by now.
16 Therefore, as soon as the parties have agreed or have concluded
17 their discussions on the matter, the Chamber would like to be informed
18 without delay.
19 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
20 20th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of May,
23 2015, at 9.30 a.m.