Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35916

 1                           Thursday, 21 May 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Two short preliminary matters.  The first deals with P580.

12             In the current translation, paragraph 1 doesn't have a full text

13     in English.  The Prosecution has uploaded a revised translation under doc

14     ID 0529-3107-1-ET.

15             As always, Mr. Lukic, the Defence has an opportunity to revisit

16     the matter within the next 48 hours, or you could perhaps, if there is

17     any need to do that, through an e-mail.

18             But meanwhile, I already instruct to replace the existing

19     translation of P580 with the revised version, uploaded under the doc ID I

20     mentioned a minute ago.

21             Then the Chamber understands that the Prosecution would like to

22     give a short statement in relation to D735 MFI'd and D736 MFI'd.

23             Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And good morning.

25             Regarding Exhibits D735 and D736, marked for identification, the

Page 35917

 1     Trial Chamber requested any additional submissions from the Prosecution

 2     by today's date.  D735 is the statement of Witness Nedjo Vlaski, as

 3     redacted by the Defence.  D736 is an 18-page proofing note, which we

 4     understand is primarily to provide Mr. Vlaski's basis for knowledge for

 5     some of the paragraphs in the statement where the basis of knowledge was

 6     unclear.

 7             We maintain our position that the witness's basis for knowledge

 8     is unclear as in certain paragraphs in D735, the statement, which were

 9     identified in our response to the Defence 92 ter motion for Mr. Vlaski.

10             The probative value of the other paragraphs we also maintain are

11     limited.

12             However, after a review of the witness's examination, we believe

13     that the Trial Chamber is in a position to properly assess the weight, if

14     any, to be given to Mr. Vlaski's statement and we will not further

15     litigate the matter.

16             Similarly, we understand that D736, the proofing note, was used

17     based on the circumstances unique to Vlaski's evidence.  The Prosecution

18     at the time was concerned about the length of the proofing note and the

19     possibility of this becoming practice in the case.  While we would

20     maintain this concern, this instance appears to be an exception.  On the

21     understanding that the tendering of the proofing note was triggered by

22     those unique circumstances, we will also not further seek to litigate

23     this issue.

24             On the basis of this, the Prosecution withdraws its objections to

25     the admission of D735 and D736, marked for identification.

Page 35918

 1             Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.  Could you refresh my memory

 3     as to whether the witness attested to the proofing note?

 4             MR. WEBER:  He did.  It was my recollection that he did.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Under those circumstances, nothing opposes

 6     admission of D735 and D736.  Both are therefore admitted.

 7             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness, which, if I

 8     understand well, would be Mr. Simic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

11             The witness, Mr. Simic, has been added to your 65 ter list, and

12     the Chamber approved that, Mr. Lukic.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Reasons still to be given.  We'll give them in due

15     course.

16             Good morning, Mr. Simic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

19     make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

20     May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  SAVO SIMIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Simic.

Page 35919

 1             Mr. Weber.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. WEBER:  My apologies for forgetting to raise this just before

 4     the witness came in, but this witness was admonished pursuant to

 5     Rule 90(E) in the previous proceedings, and we believe, based on his

 6     evidence and the content of even his statement and his position, that it

 7     would be proper to do so before he testifies.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  We

10     have no problem with that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Simic, before we start hearing your evidence, I

12     would like to inform you about the content of Rule 90(E) of the Rules of

13     Procedure and Evidence.  I'll read it to you.

14             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

15     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

16     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

17     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

18     offence other than false testimony."

19             If you think that a truthful answer to one of the questions might

20     tend to incriminate yourself, you may address me and ask to be relieved

21     from answering that question.

22             You'll now first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You find

23     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank the Court.

Page 35920

 1                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Could you please slowly tell us your full name for the record.

 5        A.   Savo Simic is my name.

 6        Q.   Mr. Simic, have you given a written statement to the Defence team

 7     of Mr. Karadzic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court

10     1D03977.

11        Q.   Let us look at the last page.  Mr. Simic, you see the screen

12     before you.  You see the last page of the document.  Do you recognise the

13     signature?

14        A.   Yes, it's my signature.  And the date is 4 November 2012.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And the date in the left bottom corner of the

16     document, is it in your handwriting?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Simic, in the proofing before you appeared in the courtroom

19     today, did you tell me that you wanted to make a few clarifications and

20     corrections to your statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I will quickly go through them and you will just confirm, please,

23     if that is exactly what you told me.

24             In paragraph 2 of your statement, in line 3, instead of the words

25     "in the 49th Mechanised Brigade of the JNA," you told me it would be more

Page 35921

 1     correct to write "in the 134th Artillery Division of the multiple rocket

 2     launchers Plamen, flame [as interpreted]."  Is this correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In the same paragraph number 2, in line 11, instead

 5     of the word "independent," there should be "self-propelled."  Is this

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 6 of your statement, line 2, you indicated it would

 9     be correct to replace the word "motorised" by "mechanised."  Is this

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I am a bit confused.  In the

13     statement, I read in line 2 "the 49th Mechanised Brigade."  What shall be

14     changed there?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it, looking at the original text, that

16     the B/C/S says "motorised" and that it is already translated, right or

17     wrong, with "mechanised"?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Motorised, that's correct,

19     Your Honour.  Just to avoid confusion.  Thank you for your assistance.

20        Q.   In paragraph 9 of your statement, in line 2, the word "artillery

21     pieces" should be replaced by "units," "artillery units."  And in line 1

22     behind the word "directly" the word "professionally" or "technically"

23     should be inserted.  Is this correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm again somewhat puzzled.  Line 2, where you said

Page 35922

 1     "artillery pieces" should be replaced by "artillery units."  In the

 2     translation, I only see "the following weapons were there ..." Or is it

 3     "As for the artillery under my..."  command.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this particular word,

 5     "orudja," means "artillery weapons."

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has said,

 7     Your Honours, that he had under his control not weapons but units.  He

 8     wants the word "weapons" to be replaced by "units" in order to make it

 9     more correct.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear by now.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, do you confirm that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've already confirmed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   In paragraph 21 of your statement, you've indicated that in the

16     first sentence the words "when I took up my duties of desk officer in the

17     artillery organ of the SRK command" should be deleted.  Is this correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 23 of your statement, in the sixth

20     passage, you noticed a place name that is incorrectly written, and you

21     said that the word "Vukovici" should be replaced by "Vojkovici."  Is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And for precision's sake, in items 12, 17, 27, and 28, instead of

25     the acronym or abbreviation "1st Sntbr," the letter T should be deleted.

Page 35923

 1     The correct acronym for your unit was 1st Smbr.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And now after making these corrections and after giving a solemn

 4     declaration in the courtroom today, if I were to ask you the same

 5     questions as when you were giving the statement, would you give us

 6     identical answers?

 7        A.   Yes, I would repeat exactly the same answers as recorded in the

 8     statement.

 9        Q.   Do these answers reflect your best knowledge and recollection of

10     the events you were asked about?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

14     tender the witness statement of Savo Simic under the number 1D03977.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, paragraph 21 of statement, you

18     deleted, more or less, the time-frame - that is, "When I became an

19     officer in the SRK artillery command or the desk officer."  Would you

20     like to replace that by any other time-frame or is it just that the

21     witness saw it for the first time although we do not know when?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, because it's

23     quite clear from the text that follows which duties he had in the second

24     half of 1994.  The words that were deleted could only create confusion

25     and that's why the witness wanted them out, because it's quite clear from

Page 35924

 1     the statement where he was and what his responsibilities were in the

 2     second half of 1994 in paragraph 4.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And indeed --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  In paragraph 3, correction.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There remains still a time-frame in paragraph 21.

 6             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D1062.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should also like to tender the

11     map marked by the witness, 65 ter 1D03978, as a document accompanying the

12     statement.

13             MR. WEBER:  No objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

15             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be D1063.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             If you've any further questions to the witness, but perhaps after

19     you have read the summary of his statement, you may proceed,

20     Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Savo Simic was born in

22     1959 and he's a professional military man, currently retired, in the rank

23     of colonel.

24             When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was in Sarajevo

25     serving as a JNA officer; i.e., commander of the multiple rocket launcher

Page 35925

 1     Plamen battery.  During the war, he carried out the duties of chief of

 2     artillery in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade of the VRS, then commander of the

 3     4th Mixed Anti-Armour Artillery Regiment of the SRK, and finally desk

 4     officer in the artillery organ of the SRK command.

 5             In his statement, he describes the situation in the JNA units on

 6     the eve of the war, the fact that JNA professional officers of non-Serb

 7     origin were leaving the JNA.  He speaks about the incidents of desertion,

 8     the deployment of JNA units, and the activities taken to prevent the

 9     blockade of these units.  He speaks in detail about the types and the

10     number of artillery weapons that were in his unit's possession and the

11     deployment of these weapons.

12             He states that the principal task of the SRK was to protect

13     ethnic Serb sectors in Sarajevo and its environs and to confront the

14     forces of the BH Army that were striving to break out of the city which

15     would have had a great impact on other front lines and the entire course

16     of the war.

17             He is familiar with the firing positions of the BH Army mortars

18     in the city of Sarajevo and on Mount Igman, and it is his opinion that

19     they very skillfully used the city to deploy their artillery inside

20     parks, on top of buildings, or mounted on vehicles.  In the artillery

21     positions of his brigade, there was UNPROFOR presence and the UNPROFOR

22     observers recorded every firing, the targets, and also the reasons why a

23     specific object was targeted.

24             He himself and his unit never intended to cause civilian

25     casualties or to terrorise civilians in Sarajevo.  He describes his

Page 35926

 1     experience with modified air bombs and their precision, and he enumerates

 2     the military targets of the BH Army located in civilian areas as well as

 3     the offensives launched by the BH Army targeting the SRK.

 4             In conclusion, he presents his own position as a professional

 5     artillery officer on individual incidents cited in the indictment and

 6     related to Sarajevo.

 7             That was the short summary of this witness's statement, and I

 8     would now like, Your Honours, to ask a few questions of the witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] D1062, could we please have that

11     and could we focus on paragraphs 9 and 10 of the statement.  D1062.

12        Q.   Mr. Simic, in paragraph 9 you speak about artillery that was

13     under your direct professional command from the 29th of May, 1992, and

14     you enumerate all of that.  However, for us who are not trained in the

15     field of artillery weaponry, there is something that remains unclear and

16     I would like you to state something for the record:  When you say "three

17     howitzer batteries," could you please tell us how many howitzers that

18     involves?

19        A.   In each battery I had six pieces, so it is a total of 18

20     artillery pieces in these howitzer batteries.

21        Q.   Thank you.  This number of six weapons, does it also refer to

22     122-millimetre self-propelled howitzer batteries?  You call them Gvozdika

23     here.

24        A.   Yes, these are special batteries and they also had six pieces per

25     battery.  So the total is 12.

Page 35927

 1        Q.   How many VBR multiple rocket launchers did VBR batteries have?

 2        A.   The battery of 128-millimetre Plamen multiple rocket launchers

 3     had a total of four weapons.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And I will conclude with one final question:  How

 5     many weapons did two 120-millimetre mortar batteries have?

 6        A.   Six per battery.  That is the general rule and that was the case

 7     in my own unit.

 8        Q.   Now, in paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that already in

 9     June 1992 from the area of Sarajevo certain artillery pieces left, one

10     went to the area of Han Pijesak and another one in the direction of

11     Milici, on orders from the Main Staff.  This number of artillery pieces

12     from paragraph 9, did it include these two batteries that had left you or

13     did you have all these weapons even without them?

14        A.   These units that at the beginning and end of June 1992 were sent

15     to Han Pijesak and Milici were from the units mentioned in paragraph 9.

16     So out of the three howitzer batteries mentioned here, D100-millimetre,

17     D30, one left, and towards the end of June, one 122-millimetre

18     self-propelled Gvozdika howitzer battery left, so it included six weapons

19     and also one squad of 128-millimetre Plamen multiple rocket launchers.

20     So these are not any kind of additional units.  These are the units that

21     I mentioned in paragraph 9.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Until the end of your involvement in this unit, the

23     1st Sarajevo Brigade, did any other weapons go to some other unit or were

24     some of those weapons deployed elsewhere outside Sarajevo?  Some of these

25     weapons mentioned in paragraph 9.

Page 35928

 1        A.   Yes.  In February, March, on orders from the Main Staff, the

 2     second self-propelled Gvozdika howitzer battery left, and it became part

 3     of the 1st Motorised Guards Brigade.  So it was February or March.  So,

 4     that is to say, the order came before that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have a time-frame, year.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you elicit a time-frame.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Colonel, sir, we would just like to ask you when it was that this

10     happened?  When did this battery go to the Guards Brigade on orders from

11     the Main Staff?

12        A.   The end of February.  And its transfer to the 1st Guards Brigade

13     was completed in March 1993.  Since conditions were difficult then, the

14     snow was deep, and - how do I put this - the transfer of the unit could

15     not take place in one go.  The conditions were very difficult.  So this

16     went on for a few days.  So end of February, beginning of March 1993.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

19     may I just briefly consult the General.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's done at a nonaudible volume, you may.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, again I can hear you and so everyone

23     else can.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, just --

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 35929

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a matter totally unrelated to the questioning

 2     of the witness at this moment.

 3             Earlier today we admitted D736, that is admitted under seal.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Just one more question about these characteristics of the

 7     weapons.  When you mentioned multiple rocket launchers, VBR, you said

 8     that a battery has four weapons.

 9        A.   I am saying that my battery had four weapons.

10        Q.   I would just like to ask you how many barrels one weapon had,

11     this VBR Plamen?  How many could be fired at the same time?

12        A.   128 millimetres, and there were three regimes of firing:  A burst

13     of gun-fire, there could have been a burst of gun-fire or individual,

14     three regiments from .2, .4, .6 seconds, one rocket.  So if the regime is

15     0.2 seconds, then all three could be fired.  If it was 04, 0.4 seconds,

16     in 24 seconds, all 36 would be fired.  And it's 0.6 seconds, then 18.6

17     seconds, all 32 rockets would be fired.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, I'd like to invite you to

19     slow down.  It's still not entirely clear how many barrels had every

20     system apart from the -- how they were fired.

21             Again, I can hear Mr. Mladic.

22             Mr. Lukic, let's --

23             Take off your earphones, Mr. Mladic, and whisper.

24             Could you tell us how many barrels?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, one weapon, a multiple

Page 35930

 1     rocket launcher, had 32 barrels.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Were you in a position to fire an entire salvo at one point in

 5     time from a multiple rocket launcher?

 6        A.   I never had the opportunity of firing a full salvo, that is to

 7     say, with all the weapons, because I didn't have enough ammunition, I

 8     didn't have such targets to engage either, so that I could use all that

 9     ammunition which I had to save anyway.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 16, my last question.  Let us focus on

11     paragraph 16, D1062.  I had some information and data about the

12     disposition of the 1st Corps forces.  Could you please explain this to

13     the Trial Chamber so that we do not leave it on this very general phrase,

14     "I had some information ..." Specifically, where did you get specific

15     information about these elements; that is to say, concerning the

16     disposition of the 1st Corps forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   From the very beginning of combat, as soon as the war broke out

18     in Sarajevo, I organised observation points at dominant features around

19     Sarajevo, which is in accordance with the rules.  There were trained

20     officers there and also trained operators.  In addition to instruments

21     for reconnaissance and for observation - that is to say, in view of the

22     area held by the enemy - they also had established contacts and

23     communications with the artillery battalion command and their own

24     batteries.  So most of the information I got was by direct observation of

25     enemy forces.  I also had some forward observation posts as required by

Page 35931

 1     combat as it evolved.  So that is one way in which information is

 2     gathered.  As enemy forces are observed directly.

 3             Also, I received intelligence from the intelligence organ of the

 4     corps command.  So I received information in that way about the

 5     deployment of enemy forces, and then I would verify that myself.  I would

 6     observe it from the observation point to see whether this information is

 7     valid, correct, and so on.

 8             I would attain information in other ways as well.  For example,

 9     if there were exchanges of population or if some people fled, I spoke to

10     some of these people, and I was primarily interested in the firing

11     positions of the Muslim army in Sarajevo, their observation points, the

12     town command, et cetera.  So whatever information they were able to

13     provide, and they were in a position to provide quite a bit, then they

14     talked about the fortification of observation points, and then they

15     walked around and they saw some things and they gave me information of

16     that nature.  I verified such information as well.

17             So I checked, verified that.  I didn't engage any targets just

18     like that.  I asked my observers to make sure that they would see where

19     the command post is, where the firing positions were among the enemy

20     forces in the area of Sarajevo or anywhere else outside Sarajevo.  So

21     these were mainly the sources from which I obtained my information.

22        Q.   Colonel, sir, thank you for this clarification.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point in

24     time, we have no further questions for Mr. Simic.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 35932

 1             Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Weber to start his

 2     cross-examination, I would have one question, Witness.  It relates to

 3     paragraph 26 of your statement and deals with incidents G-5 and G-6.

 4             You're telling us there that according to the finds of the BH

 5     police, 82-millimetre mortar shells had been fired from Serbian firing

 6     positions.  You say:

 7             "My opinion about these incidents is that the shells were fired

 8     from the Butmir sector from positions under the control of the Muslim

 9     forces."

10             Now, it's clear that you disagree, but the reasons for this

11     disagreement are not set out there in what respect you think the BH

12     police made mistakes or did not properly analyse.  Could you give us the

13     reasons why you disagree with them?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 82-millimetre

15     mortars are support weapons for battalions, and it is battalion

16     commanders that control their use.  From a professional point of view, as

17     I'm a professional artilleryman, I came to the conclusion that it was not

18     possible to establish exactly from which position the mentioned shell was

19     fired from the 82-millimetre mortar.  For example, it says that it was

20     fired from Nedzarici.  And in the direction of Nedzarici, there is also

21     Butmir, and we established that they had firing positions there, where

22     the UPI Institute was.

23             I mean, I'm just saying here that it is not possible to establish

24     that it is exactly from Serb positions.  Now, whether there was a

25     detailed investigation on the basis of the angle of descent, the azimuth,

Page 35933

 1     whether that was all done very precisely, I really don't know.  But I

 2     assume, as an artillery officer, that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there for a second.  If I understand

 4     you well, you're saying they could have been fired from Butmir as well,

 5     just as they could have been fired from Serb positions?  Is that well

 6     understood?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said there is one direction

 8     of firing but the distance had to be established.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's not what your statement says.  Your

10     statement says that it's your opinion that they were fired from Butmir,

11     not that they could have been fired from Butmir as well.  But that's now

12     clear to me.

13             There is another matter.  You said:  I don't know what they

14     measured, azimuth, angle of descent, et cetera, et cetera.  Have you seen

15     the reports in which the BH police concluded that they were fired from

16     Nedzarici?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read some reports, but -- I mean,

18     as far as I understood things --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you read these reports about G-5 and G-6?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I see these reports about G-5

21     and G-6?  Those incidents?  Did I read them?  Yes, I read them.  And as

22     far as I understood these reports, it was not exactly established and

23     that the azimuths were not measured properly, that the distance of firing

24     was not established, and that this cannot be established with any

25     precision.  And it is a very small distance, Nedzarici and the place

Page 35934

 1     where the shell fell.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you this because a minute ago you said,

 3     and I'll literally quote what you said:

 4             "Now, whether there was a detailed investigation on the basis of

 5     the angle of descent, the azimuth, whether that was all done very

 6     precisely, I really don't know."

 7             That suggests that you have not studied those reports because you

 8     say I don't know what they did and what was the basis for their

 9     conclusions.  I'm a bit puzzled by you now telling me that you did read

10     the reports.  Do you have an explanation?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe we haven't understood each

12     other, Judge, sir, well, in detail.

13             As far as I understood what I read, it was not done

14     professionally.  There were certain deviations, there were different

15     interpretations.  I think there were some two commissions there and there

16     was a discrepancy, and this leads me to the conclusion that this was not

17     done fully as it should have been done, to measure the exact azimuth, the

18     angle of descent and -- actually, it is not sufficient just to establish

19     the direction of firing.  It is also important to establish the distance

20     in order to see where it was that the shell was fired from.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you said I don't know whether that was all

22     done and what they took into account, you say you did look at that and

23     you think that their conclusions are wrong on the basis of what you read?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the basis of what I read.

25     Yes.

Page 35935

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.  You find Mr. Weber to

 3     your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

 4             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 7        Q.   Sir, in July 1993 and January 1994, you were not [realtime

 8     transcript read in error:  "Now"] assigned to the Ilidza Brigade;

 9     correct?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.  In July 1993 and January 1994, I was

11     within the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.

12        Q.   You were not assigned or giving orders to the artillery units of

13     the Ilidza Brigade at the school of -- the Faculty of Theology building

14     or near the Nedzarici barracks, correct, on those months?

15        A.   No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could you have a look at the transcript.

17     Page 20, line 2.  I think I heard instead of the word "now" I heard the

18     word "not."  Is that accurate?

19             MR. WEBER:  Not.  I believe I said "not assigned."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what my impression was as well.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:  Moving on to some other matters.

23        Q.   You were a member of the 49th JNA Mechanised Brigade prior to May

24     1992; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.

Page 35936

 1        Q.   The 49th Mechanised Brigade was a part of the 4th Corps of the

 2     JNA; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   The headquarters of the 49th Mechanised Brigade was in the area

 5     of Lukavica; do I understand that correctly?

 6        A.   Yes, in the area of Lukavica, in the Slavisa Vajner Cica

 7     barracks.

 8        Q.   That's the same barracks that the brigade stayed in when it was

 9     renamed the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade; correct?

10        A.   When the brigade was renamed the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade,

11     it was already relocated from the barracks and it was outside.  It was at

12     the positions, and the command post was in the area of Pavlovac, close to

13     the barracks but not in the barracks.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6534 for

15     the witness.

16        Q.   Colonel Simic, this is a 4th Corps order dated 17th May 1992,

17     concerning the changes in titles of units.  Directing your attention to

18     item 2 on this list, which indicates the 49th Mbr, is receiving the title

19     1st Sarajevo Brigade.  Your brigade was renamed the 1st Sarajevo Brigade

20     in May 1992; correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   Directing your attention to item 1, this occurred at the same

23     time that the 4th Corps was renamed the Sarajevo Romanija Corps; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   With this re-designation, you became a member of the Army of

Page 35937

 1     Republika Srpska; right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.

 3        Q.   As a member of the artillery units of the 49th Brigade and then

 4     the 1st Smbr, your artillery units communicated with reconnaissance and

 5     sabotage or DIO units; correct?  They were another means of you obtaining

 6     information?

 7        A.   I established observation posts.  That is what artillery rules

 8     say anyway.  So in addition to firing positions, every unit has to have

 9     observation points.  You cannot target without correcting fire from

10     observation posts.  So I established observation posts, and I had

11     observers, I had scouts, and I received information about the enemy.

12     Also, I received information from other units.  They would provide

13     information to me.  As regards units that I could not observe for my own

14     observations posts.

15        Q.   Sir, please listen to my questions carefully.  I understand what

16     you're saying.  My question was intended to be more directed towards you

17     communicated with reconnaissance and sabotage units, known as DIO units;

18     right?

19        A.   I didn't know any kind of units for sabotage.  I'm not familiar

20     with such units.  I did communicate with my own units and the units of

21     the superior command, of course with the superior command.  Those are the

22     observation posts that I communicated with.  And also with neighbours.

23        Q.   In 1991 and the first half of 1992, reserve forces responded to

24     call-ups and joined the 49th Mechanised Brigade; correct?

25        A.   At the summons from the command of the mechanised brigade, first

Page 35938

 1     of all, training was conducted for critical specialties such as

 2     commanders of units, topographers, and gunners - gunners were the most

 3     critical.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether reserve forces

 5     responded to call-ups and joined the 49th Mechanised Brigade.  Did they?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just about to say that.  Only

 7     Serbs responded to the call-ups to the brigade, whereas as of 1991

 8     Slovenes and Croats did not go to the army and later on we were unable to

 9     call them up even as reserves, because only Serbs responded.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I also seek clarification of one of your

11     previous answers.  You were asked about communication with sabotage and

12     reconnaissance units known as DIO units.  You said there were no sabotage

13     units.  But was there any reconnaissance units?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were reconnaissance

15     units within the brigade.  And I said I received information from all

16     units, including them.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, following up on your last question, if

19     the Prosecution could have 65 ter 32637 for the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I said please proceed but I think I should

21     have said let's take a break.

22             MR. WEBER:  Very well, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like

24     to see you back after the break.  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 35939

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite the parties also to look at page 21,

 5     line 6, 7, although the line numbers are sometimes slightly different,

 6     where the witness said, talking about the brigade:

 7             "The command post was close to the barracks but in the barracks."

 8             I think it was "but not in the barracks."  But perhaps could we

 9     at any point in time verify that.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Simic.

12             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             On the screen, for the record, we have 65 ter 32637.

15        Q.   Colonel Simic, I'd like to direct your attention to this

16     document.  It is a 4th Corps intelligence sector report dated 13 January

17     1992 from the chief of intelligence sector, Milisav Petrovic.  In

18     section a of this report, it indicates that the corps has five

19     reconnaissance companies, two of these companies are in the 10th and

20     49th Brigades.  In section b it then -- towards the second half of the

21     doc -- page before you, it lists a bunch of material needed for the

22     companies.

23             As you see a little further down in section b, which is probably

24     towards the bottom-third of the page before you, it lists a bunch of

25     material needed for the companies.  One of the items were "silencers for

Page 35940

 1     automatic rifle, sniper rifle, and API for all of our reconnaissance

 2     companies."

 3             Sir, the reconnaissance units of your brigade possessed these

 4     types of rifles; right?

 5        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I really don't know what they had at their

 6     disposal, especially since I was commander of a battery at that time.  I

 7     don't know what they had.  I don't know what they had and what they

 8     missed.  I could not answer this question.

 9             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence,

10     65 ter 32637.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7398.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   Sir, I now want to return to what we were discussing in terms of

16     the individuals who joined the 49th Brigade in 1991 and early 1992.

17     There were also volunteers who joined the brigade; correct?

18        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, in the early days of combat, mainly conscripts

19     and volunteers filled the units.  It was difficult to carry out the

20     mobilisation.  Officers were mobilised on the 5th.

21        Q.   Sir, you've answered my question.  If you could just -- I will go

22     through it step by step.  There is no need to explain.

23             And just so I know, the JNA 4th Corps provided these individuals

24     who were called up, and volunteers, they provided them with weapons;

25     right?

Page 35941

 1        A.   I mean volunteers from the population of surrounding villages,

 2     Lukavica, Tilava.  I mean, these volunteers responded of their own will

 3     because there was no state of war declared.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you have not listened to the question,

 5     apparently, because the question was not whether they -- where they came

 6     from.  The question was whether they were provided with weapons.  Were

 7     they or were they not?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they received weapons, they

 9     were trained, and they got weapons in the unit where they were assigned

10     within the corps.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Since you've mentioned the ethnic makeup of the individuals who

13     joined, I'd like to show you 65 ter 19789a.

14             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have page 10 of the B/C/S original

15     and page 15 of the English translation.  For the record, coming up are

16     the attachments referenced in Exhibit P1967.  There are a total of seven

17     attachments mentioned in that other exhibit and these are the seven

18     attachments.

19        Q.   Colonel Simic, this is Colonel Aleksa Krsmanovic's report which

20     was delivered during a 15 November 1992 consultation on the military

21     political situation in the SRK zone of responsibility.  Section 1 remits

22     to the manning of officers and soldiers as of November 1992, as I

23     understand it.  It indicates units were manned with active and reserve

24     officers, non-commissioned officers, civilians working in the army,

25     soldiers under contract, military conscripts, soldiers doing their

Page 35942

 1     national service in the RS, and by many patriots and patriotically

 2     inclined people.

 3             If you could look a little then further down, he then --

 4     Colonel Krsmanovic states that the characteristics of the manning in the

 5     SRK as:

 6             "Mono-ethnic (99.8 per cent Serbs, 0.02 per cent the rest)."

 7             He then indicates the age structure as -- the average age is 36

 8     years of age.  This is consistent with the unit that you were in,

 9     correct, your brigade?

10        A.   Well, for the most part, the ethnic structure is correct.  I

11     don't know the exact percentage, but in the early days of the war, in my

12     unit I also had some Muslim soldiers and Croat soldiers.  Those who were

13     doing their regular military service and were sent from Serbia and

14     Montenegro.  All the way up to 19 May 1992, when the JNA withdrew from

15     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I know that this is a large upload.  We

17     can do -- at this time I'd suggest either one of two things:  Either mark

18     for identification the entire document, which we do intend to use later;

19     or I'd be happy to excerpt just Colonel Krsmanovic's portion now and seek

20     that admission.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you not say these are annexes to already an

22     existing --

23             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- exhibit, P967?

25             MR. WEBER:  They are, but the annexes are not admitted.

Page 35943

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 2             MR. WEBER:  In general, we believe that it would be helpful for

 3     an understanding of the other exhibit too, to have these annexes, but

 4     I've only used a small portion right now so --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the total size of the document, if you

 6     would ...

 7             MR. WEBER:  There's seven annexes.  I believe it's over 20 pages.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If it really is 20 pages, then there is no problem

 9     in having it all in.  But if it would be considerably more, then you

10     would be invited to extract.

11             MR. WEBER:  It's 18 pages.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  18 pages.

13             MR. WEBER:  In the B/C/S.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  You may upload it in its entirety.

15             MR. WEBER:  It is uploaded.  Then we tender it into evidence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 19789a receives number P7399.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  And I did understand that

19     you're using other portions later as well.

20             MR. WEBER:  We do intend to, and we've also used P1967 on a

21     number of occasions.  So the materials do interrelate.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   From May 1992 [realtime transcript read in error: "1990"]  until

25     May 1994, you were the chief of the artillery in the 1st

Page 35944

 1     Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  In this capacity, did you oversee the use

 2     of all artillery and mortars in the brigade?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Weber, can you just check.  You said from May

 4     19...

 5             MR. WEBER:  My understanding is from his statement, from May 1992

 6     until May 1994.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Because you are recorded as saying "May

 8     1990."

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from May 1992 to May 1994, I

10     was chief of artillery in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  The chief

11     of artillery is a professional organ in the command of the brigade.  So

12     technically I was responsible for the readiness and the level of training

13     of units and their fitness for carrying out tasks.  I was not the

14     commander of these units.  I was the professional supervisor of these

15     units that I named in my statement.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Please listen to my question carefully.  I wanted to know did you

18     oversee the use, so the actual use, of artillery and mortars in the

19     1st Smbr.

20        A.   Yes, I oversaw the use of these units.  The brigade artillery

21     group.  Those are the units I mean.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was not related to the unit but if

23     you -- the use of all artillery and mortars in the brigade.  Did you

24     oversee that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I oversaw the use of the two mortar

Page 35945

 1     batteries that I indicated that made up the brigade artillery group.  I

 2     also supervised the howitzer batteries, 122-millimetres, while they were

 3     in the brigade and the multiple rocket launchers, but I oversaw the level

 4     of training and the fitness for combat --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was not --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but as for the other

 7     122-millimetre batteries, I did not supervisor them.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be very helpful if you would just listen

 9     to the question and answer the question which was put to you.

10             Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence of the various artillery and

13     mortars in the Smbr.  Do I understand from your question -- or your

14     answer that you did not oversee the use of all artillery and mortars in

15     the brigade, only certain pieces?

16        A.   I can only tell you again.  I oversaw the artillery units that I

17     named in my statement.  The ones that made up the brigade artillery

18     group.  I only had supervision over these units.  No other groups.  I

19     don't know if anything else existed.  I know of nothing else.  I know

20     only 122-millimetre mortars.  I did not supervise their use.

21        Q.   Your brigade commander was Veljko Stojanovic; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   During your time in the 1st Smbr, you provided proposals on the

24     use of artillery to the brigade commander; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  While I was chief of artillery.

Page 35946

 1        Q.   Dusan Skrbo [sic] was one of your subordinates; right?

 2        A.   Dusan Skrba was subordinated to me professionally, not along the

 3     chain of command.  Along the chain of command, he was directly answerable

 4     to the brigade commander.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32640 for

 7     the witness, page 19.

 8        Q.   Colonel Simic, at various points today, just to actually attempt

 9     to save us some time, I am going to call up portions of your testimony in

10     the Karadzic case where you discuss different matters.  I will read you

11     these portions, I will try to do it slowly, and then afterwards I will

12     have questions for you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document is not released in

14     e-court.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you for letting us know.

16        Q.   Just so we know, do you understand the English language?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   On this part, I'm going to start on line 11.  In the Karadzic

19     case, you are asked:

20             "Let me follow up on some of those questions, Colonel Simic.  As

21     chief of artillery in the 1st Mechanised Brigade, what were your general

22     responsibilities?  I know you already alluded to some of them in your

23     previous answer, but I'd like to know your formal responsibilities as

24     chief of artillery."

25             Your answer was:

Page 35947

 1             "First and foremost, I was supposed to take care of the

 2     professional training of the unit for combat tasks.  I was not in charge

 3     of discipline.  It was the battalion commander who was in charge of that

 4     and his subordinated commanders were -- reported to him on that.  If

 5     there was any free time and there was no combat, I organised training so

 6     that my unit members were always active, they were always involved in

 7     training unless there was combat going on.  My other tasks were to inform

 8     the brigade commander about the professional capabilities of the unit,

 9     the problems of logistics support - if there were any - in terms of

10     artillery so as to make sure that the unit was at all times capable of

11     performing its tasks.  When it come to issues of morale, discipline, and

12     the situation in the unit, it was the commander of the battalion who was

13     in charge of that and he was the one who reported on those issues.  That

14     would be in a nutshell.  And, moreover, in the brigade command I also

15     provided my input on the use of artillery; i.e., I provided my proposal

16     to the brigade commander.  And the brigade commander at the end of the

17     day decided whether to accept my proposals or not, or perhaps he had his

18     own suggestions and he would issue orders as to how to place the

19     artillery, how to deploy the assets.  And then the orders were carried

20     out.

21             "If a combat order was being drafted, I provided my input for the

22     artillery use, both verbally and graphically, using a map."

23             You were then asked:

24             "And based on that input, assuming it was accepted, it would then

25     be the commander who would issue the order to the subordinate units to

Page 35948

 1     the -- for artillery use?"

 2             You answered:

 3             "Correct."

 4             Do you stand by this previous testimony regarding your

 5     responsibilities in the 1st Smbr?

 6        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  I stand by it.  But I would only like to

 7     add that it's not a battalion commander but the artillery battalion.  You

 8     mentioned several times "battalion," but when we talk about artillery

 9     battalions, another word in Serbian is used and it sounds "divizija" --

10     "divizion."  "Divizion."

11        Q.   So what you were discussing in that answer was the mixed

12     artillery division of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade; right?

13        A.   Correct.  Because he was in charge of the brigade artillery

14     group.

15        Q.   In the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, there were two artillery

16     regiments that were directly subordinated to the corps command; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   There was the 4th Mixed Anti-Armour Artillery Regiment, which we

19     see in your statement you commanded, and there was also the 4th Mixed

20     Artillery Regiment; right?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   The commander of the 4th MAP, or mixed artillery regiment, was

23     Colonel Radislav Cvetkovic; correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Could you tell us just who was the previous commander of the

Page 35949

 1     4th Mixed Anti-Armour Artillery Regiment, which is the one you commanded

 2     from May 1994 until April 1995?  Who was your predecessor?

 3        A.   The way you put it, May 1994, I was there in May 1994 to May or

 4     April 1995, and Bartula, Jovan, Colonel Jovan Bartula served in my

 5     position until May 1994.

 6        Q.   As the commander of this regiment, you were directly subordinate

 7     to the corps commander, initially General Galic and then

 8     General Milosevic; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You also received input on your activities from the SRK chief of

11     artillery as part of this regiment; correct?

12        A.   Yes, correct.

13        Q.   The SRK chief of artillery at that time was Tadija Manojlovic;

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   As part of this corps artillery regiment, you sent your reports

17     directly to the corps commander; right?

18        A.   Yes, I sent reports to the corps command.

19        Q.   You would also report along your professional lines to

20     Colonel Manojlovic; right?

21        A.   When some technical report was needed, I sent it to

22     Colonel Manojlovic.  I don't remember.  There were too many of them.  For

23     the most part, we simply met and resolved things on the ground.

24        Q.   From April 1995 until the end of the war, you indicate that you

25     were assistant to the chief of artillery in the SRK command.

Page 35950

 1     Colonel Manojlovic was your immediate superior; right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now go to page 22 of the

 4     transcript which is on the screen before us still.

 5        Q.   This is the portion of the Karadzic testimony where you described

 6     your role in the SRK command.  I'm going to start on line 8.  What was

 7     asked of you was:

 8             "I indicated I wanted to now focus on the third role that you

 9     identified in your statement and that was, as indicated in the statement,

10     from April 1995 until the end of the war when you were - it says in your

11     statement - a desk officer in the SRK command artillery organ.  What were

12     your responsibilities as -- in this position?"

13             Your answer:

14             "I was assistant commander of artillery.  I was his desk officer

15     and I carried out his orders and his tasks concerning artillery."

16             Next question.

17             "And what did that involve in terms of your -- both your daily

18     role in either receiving information from subordinate units, drafting

19     plans, and so on?  And then I want to ask you after that what it involved

20     in terms of specific operations that were envisioned or carried out?"

21             Your answer, which finishes at the end on the next page, was:

22             "Together with the chief of artillery, I worked on the plan of

23     use of artillery.  The chief of artillery made proposals; I assisted him.

24     He would draw the plan of action on the map.  And pursuant to the order

25     of the corps commander, we would do excerpts from that plan.  That's when

Page 35951

 1     it came to combat.  And pursuant to the orders of the chief of artillery,

 2     if he would send me to one of the corps units, I would go, inspect, and

 3     extend assistance if I encountered any problems.  I carried out his tasks

 4     and orders in that sense."

 5             Do you stand by this previous testimony regarding your role in

 6     the SRK command?

 7        A.   Yes, I stand by that.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31139.

 9        Q.   This is an order dated 12 August 1995 from the personnel

10     administration of the VJ General Staff related to appointments from the

11     30th Personnel Centre.  This document mentions multiple people, such as

12     Marko Lugonja, who we see on the first page.  It later mentions

13     individuals like Milorad Sehovac and Milorad Bukova, among others.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 8 of both

15     versions.

16        Q.   In the middle of the page before you and at the bottom of the

17     page of the translation, at number 13 on this list we see that your name

18     appears.  You and other senior members of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

19     were assigned to the VRS through the 30th Personnel Centre of the

20     Yugoslav Army, the VJ; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31139 receives number P7400.

Page 35952

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P7400 is admitted.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   While you were in the 1st Smbr -- I actually want to change

 4     topics a little bit with you.

 5             While you were in the 1st Smbr, orders were provided to

 6     subordinate units in both writing and orally; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The orders conveyed to the brigade's units came through the chain

 9     of command from the corps command; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  Towards the brigade command and then further on.

11        Q.   When you were an artillery commander, the artillery and mortars

12     under your command could not be used without your approval; right?

13        A.   You mean the chief of artillery.  I was not the commander.  I was

14     the chief of artillery in the brigade, if that's the period you're

15     referring to.  Without my knowledge, it was not used if I was there.  So

16     I was familiarised with that.  The commander of the artillery battalion

17     could decide to use mortars and other weapons from his artillery

18     battalion on orders from the commander of the regiment, and then if I'm

19     not there, then I'm not informed.  But if I was at the command post of

20     the brigade, then I was certainly informed, or if I was in the corps, so

21     I was informed about what was happening; that is to say, when artillery

22     was used.  It wasn't that I issued orders as to whether it would be used

23     or not but I was made aware of this.  I was told that it would be used.

24     So I was following the situation in the unit, and I took that into

25     account, paid attention to it.

Page 35953

 1        Q.   Do I understand from your answer then that the artillery mortars

 2     could not be used without the approval of the brigade commander?

 3        A.   It depended on the situation.  If combat operations were such

 4     that fire had to be opened immediately, then the artillery battalion

 5     commander could -- actually, if the objective was revealed and if there

 6     was an attack at the front line, then there had to be immediate reaction.

 7     And while the order to open fire at enemy targets was being issued, the

 8     commander is informed.  So it depended on the situation.  But certainly

 9     the commander could not determine who would fire when.  I mean, that's

10     what he had the commander of the artillery battalion for, and he was

11     responsible for the use of artillery, and he could, without his order, if

12     it has to do with an immediate danger in terms of the combat disposition

13     of our own forces, he could act.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I again urge you to slow down when

15     speaking, otherwise some of your words would be lost for us.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Aside from that situation, if there are orders that the artillery

18     or mortars would be fired, those orders would have to be issued by the

19     brigade commander; correct?  It would have to come through him.  That's

20     how I understood your previous evidence.

21        A.   I'm telling you the brigade commander would approve the use; for

22     example, if combat operations were being planned, then one acts in

23     accordance with the plan of activity.  However, if some of the battalion

24     commanders informed the commander of the brigade about danger - namely,

25     that his position was under threat - then the brigade commander is going

Page 35954

 1     to order the opening of fire; rather, giving support to the area of

 2     responsibility of the commander of that unit.  However, there can be a

 3     situation when the battalion commander could call us directly and inform

 4     us along parallel lines, and we would open fire without waiting for the

 5     approval of the brigade commander, if the position is in danger, and if

 6     that is confirmed by our own observers from the observation post.

 7        Q.   Large-calibre artillery and mortars were valued assets in the

 8     SRK; right?

 9        A.   Valued assets for supporting infantry units, yes.

10        Q.   The use of large-calibre weaponry was controlled through orders

11     from the SRK command; correct?

12        A.   The command of the SRK controlled through their orders the use of

13     weaponry, units, so as not to have fire opened unnecessarily, to observe

14     targets, to engage targets, that's it.  If we were to ask approval from

15     the brigade commander and then the commander of the corps and the

16     Main Staff, then we wouldn't open fire for an hour or whatever.  But

17     there is reporting, subsequently, and everybody in the chain is made

18     aware of the opening of fire.

19        Q.   Sir, we'll go through it.  If you could answer my questions as

20     closely to what I ask as possible, that'd be appreciated.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32633 for

22     the witness.

23        Q.   This is an order dated 31 October 1992 from Deputy Commander

24     Dragan Marcetic of the SRK command.  The order is sent to all units of

25     the SRK.  It's a very short order.  It states:

Page 35955

 1             "As of 1.11.1992 and until further notice, the use of weaponry of

 2     a calibre higher than 12.7 millimetres is strictly forbidden without the

 3     approval of the Corps commander or his deputy."

 4             This is how the SRK command controlled the use of weapons over

 5     12.7 millimetres in calibre; right?

 6        A.   This probably pertains to a cease-fire that had been agreed upon.

 7     And, in such situations, the corps commander sends such an order

 8     forbidding the use without his approval.  So such orders were obeyed, we

 9     never violated the cease-fire.  Our units were never the first to violate

10     a cease-fire.  We only responded if we were attacked at the front line,

11     and I think that this pertains to --

12        Q.   Sir, this will last very long and actually I'll be worried about

13     getting you home tomorrow.  If you could please listen to my questions

14     carefully, I --

15             This document says nothing about a cease-fire; right?

16        A.   Really, from the document, you cannot see what it pertains to,

17     but the corps commander could not control the use of fire --

18        Q.   So, sir, there is no need to add things.  My question was just

19     very simple about this being an example of something.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document at this time.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32633 receives number P7401.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   When oral orders to fire targets were conveyed to subordinate

25     units, the SRK used coded language and coded tables; correct?

Page 35956

 1        A.   Yes.  Code-names and such-like was used in conveying such orders.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32536 for

 3     the witness.  I'll be going directly to page 7 in both versions.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The last document which was admitted received

 5     P7401.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   I just want to go through an example of this coded language and

 8     tables.

 9             This is an SRK table of signals and targets.  We see that there

10     are codes for the periods in the month and for the name of some of the

11     SRK units.  We then see that there are designations beginning with the

12     letter C.  These designations, which are -- for example, C-30 and then so

13     forth, those are the coded locations of targets; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's what it seems to be.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the next page in the English

16     translation.

17        Q.   We then see that there's instructions for the number of salvos

18     and how to report back.  The document then appears to have provided an

19     example of how an order would be given.  It states:

20             "9 September 1995 neutralise C-40 with two salvos with the

21     4th MAP.

22             "Report on the completed task."

23             This language then appears to be translated into coded language

24     as:

25             "'CER,'" C-E-R, "'BARUT, 061, 072, 077, 078.'"

Page 35957

 1             This last part here is how this type of order would be conveyed

 2     in coded language to a subordinate unit; right?

 3        A.   Yes, this is an example how an order would be conveyed and how

 4     these codes would be used.  So the other side would have to have the same

 5     code table or list of code signs in order to be able to decipher the

 6     order.

 7        Q.   And when you say "the other side," you mean the subordinate unit?

 8        A.   Yes, the subordinate unit that the order is being sent to or

 9     rather who it is that one is communicating with.

10        Q.   According to this table, you would just substitute the word

11     "BARUT" in this example with the word or phrase "Bedem 3A" if you wanted

12     to strike this target with an aerial bomb; right?

13        A.   I don't understand and I don't see that.  Bedem, where is that?

14     Let me just find it.

15             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, this is on the previous page in

16     the translation.

17        Q.   Under the Jedinica, the units, we see that there is a number of

18     units, the example related --

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   -- the example related to the 4th MAP, which is coded as BARUT,

21     the aerial bomb, which appears to be a unit, is coded as Bedem 3A.  You

22     can just --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You can just switch out those codes if you wanted an aerial bomb

25     fired at this target; right?

Page 35958

 1        A.   Yes, yes, I see that.

 2        Q.   And you mentioned it already, but in reports back to superior

 3     commands, units would confirm whether a task was completed; right?  That

 4     was the practice.

 5        A.   Regular reports were sent, a regular daily combat report, during

 6     the course of the day.  The situation, say, at 1700 hours, it was sent at

 7     18- 1900 hours, I don't remember exactly.  So it was a regular combat

 8     report where the situation in the units would be described.  That is to

 9     say, over the past 24 hours and --

10        Q.   Sir, we're going to go through and talk about reporting in some

11     more detail.  I was just asking if that was the practice, to report back

12     if a task was completed; right?  That's all I was asking you.

13        A.   If the task was received through such an order, that is to say

14     directly by telephone, radio communication, et cetera; that is to say,

15     using this code table, and then the code is written here.  So then a

16     report should be provided once the order had been carried out.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of both

18     versions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the codes 061 and following is not

20     entirely clear to me yet.

21             MR. WEBER:  I can go back to page 7 if that's -- if you want to

22     look at that further, Your Honours.  The numbers appear on the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  I think I now understand.

24             MR. WEBER:  So there is corresponding numbers to the different

25     aspects of that example.  So --

Page 35959

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:  So --

 3        Q.   Sir, do I read this list correctly, that if you want to carry out

 4     actions per, you'd start it with the number 061?  Do you see that on the

 5     table?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, I also believe the other numbers

 8     that are in the example are also present in the list.  I don't know if

 9     Your Honours want me to go through all of them.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, I don't have to go through all of them,

11     but I do see that there is always with the numbers 062 up to 074, there

12     is always a corresponding C number.  But for 061 it says -- it only says

13     "Carry out actions per."  I do not fully understand yet what

14     distinguishes 061 from the other numbers.

15             MR. WEBER:  Maybe if I could give a quick attempt at it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you would just -- I just said it's not clear

17     to me yet.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, if you wanted to carry out actions against the target, you

20     would -- there would be an order given that would be "carry out actions

21     per" and then it would list the number of the target.  Do I understand

22     that right?

23        A.   Yes, 061.  That is to say, when the code 061 is presented during

24     the conversation, this indicates the activity that should be carried out;

25     that is to say, carry out whatever.  So whoever receives the order writes

Page 35960

 1     061 and then refers to the code - that is to say, the activity that

 2     should be carried out.  061, "fire at," et cetera.

 3             Now, within that point, there are several targets from one to the

 4     other, and then 062 or 070, 074, and then it indicates the target that

 5     should be engaged.

 6             May I go on explaining?

 7        Q.   No, I --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I now understand what it is.  061 stands for

 9     "take action."  The following numbers, 62 to 74, stand for targets, and

10     then, for example, 77 indicates how many salvos should be fired, and then

11     reporting back is covered by 078.  Is that well understood?

12             I see your nodding "yes."  That's then hereby on the record.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  If I can now go to page 5 for the -- just to look at

17     the associated tables to this -- to what we just looked at.

18        Q.   So here we see that there is a list of co-ordinates for UNPROFOR

19     on Igman, and we then see the C designations that correspond to the list

20     that we just looked at.  And then a bunch of co-ordinates.  This is what

21     the subordinate units would have to indicate if they got the code -- the

22     example that was used was C-40, they would then use these co-ordinates to

23     then target that location; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   Aside from this type of targeting, just in general, artillery and

Page 35961

 1     mortar units in the SRK used pre-recorded targets from their previous

 2     firing missions; correct?

 3        A.   Otherwise, according to the rules, artillery units have to plan

 4     fire in advance.  And fire is planned, target is planned in far greater

 5     numbers than will actually be realised in all combat activities.  Every

 6     target is entered once activity is recorded.  Say the enemy artillery

 7     fires, the observation post observes that, et cetera, but then we enter

 8     that target on a map and then we set the co-ordinates.  We give these

 9     co-ordinates to the units in order for them to prepare in a timely

10     fashion.

11             So if that target starts firing, if it is the enemy artillery

12     that is involved, we already have prepared co-ordinates and prepared

13     elements for that target.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple answer to the question therefore is, yes,

15     the targets were prerecorded.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 32536 into

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a digression.

22     I apologise.  I did not see.  For which period is this and what is the

23     position of the Prosecutor on this code table?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the Prosecution has not taken any

25     position yet.  And if you think it would be interesting to know, then you

Page 35962

 1     can ask in re-examination the witness whether he has any knowledge about

 2     the time-frame for these tables.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32536 receives number P7402.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32535 for

 7     the witness.

 8        Q.   Colonel Simic, coming up before you is an SRK command order dated

 9     19 September 1993.  It's from Dragomir Milosevic after Operation

10     Lukavac 93, one of the operations you discuss in your statement.  The

11     order is sent to all brigades.  And, according to this order, the code

12     tables, table signals, and other documents related to cryptographic

13     communications must be destroyed.

14             The documents used for coded communications were destroyed after

15     operations or the lapse of a certain period of time; correct?

16        A.   That is the rule in peacetime and in wartime.  Whatever is not

17     being used should be destroyed.  Because often the keys would be changed

18     for the code tables, maps, et cetera.  It changed often so that one and

19     the same code names would not be used throughout the war.  So then I

20     don't know what the period involved was.  Was it a month or two or three.

21     For a certain operation they are used and then afterwards a commission

22     destroys this and a record is written up on that, and then new code names

23     are received and also keys, passwords for coded maps, and so on and so

24     forth.  That is the rule in peacetime and in wartime.

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 32535 into evidence.

Page 35963

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7403.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I do not know if this would be a good

 5     time for the break.  I'm going to go into something else.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a good time for the break.

 7             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at quarter past

10     12.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed there were a few

14     preliminary matters to be dealt with.

15             Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There was no precisely

17     good time to deal with those, so we thought we'd deal with them

18     forthwith.  Three quick matters, the first two of which can be handled in

19     public session, the last of which will require private session.

20             The first concerns an imminent filing about which we wish to

21     alert the Trial Chamber and have alerted the Defence.  The backdrop to

22     that filing was our February 2014 filing indicating the Prosecution's

23     intention to annex a proof of death and injury chart or charts to the

24     final brief and subsequent encouragement by the Trial Chamber to do so

25     during the pendency of the case, if possible, with the understanding that

Page 35964

 1     the final annex to the final brief would supersede that temporary

 2     document, if necessary, but would still permit the parties and the

 3     Chamber the benefit of its use during the course of the case.

 4     Accordingly, we will be filing that this week.

 5             Secondly, as the Trial Chamber may have already have noted, we

 6     have filed our anticipated schedule for the Prosecution reopening to

 7     commence on the 22nd of June.  In the same vein, I note that we

 8     considered the timing of our bar table motion and in conformity with

 9     previous practice considered that we would do so after the conclusion of

10     witness testimony for that segment of the case, unless the TC, the

11     Trial Chamber, deemed for some reason that this timing should be

12     adjusted.

13             And, finally, the matter that I propose to address in private

14     session in response to an inquiry made by the Trial Chamber yesterday.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move briefly to private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35965











11  Page 35965 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35966

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             The witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Simic.  Please be seated.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Colonel Simic, I just want to change topics now and briefly

24     discuss the process of reporting in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

25             First, the brigades were required to submit reports to the corps

Page 35967

 1     command on a daily basis; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   During the day also the brigade received both oral and written

 4     reports from its subordinate units; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In the brigade command, the reports received from the subordinate

 7     units would be compiled by the duty operations officer in the brigade;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the corps command followed a similar process.  The duty

11     operations officer in the corps command would compile the reports from

12     the subordinate brigades; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution actually go quickly to 65 ter

15     32541 for the witness.

16        Q.   This is General Galic's operational order number 2 regarding

17     reporting regulations.  It is dated 16 September 1992, shortly after he

18     assumed his duties as the SRK commander, and it is sent to all units of

19     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  Could you please read the order and verify

20     that the items that were supposed to be included in the regular reports

21     are accurate?

22        A.   They are.  That's roughly the daily combat report that was sent

23     out every day.

24        Q.   And aside from these items, if there were unusual incidents or a

25     need to more frequently report, interim reports could be sent in addition

Page 35968

 1     to the daily combat reports; right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   What we're looking at here is an example of a standing order;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Under section III, which I believe we might have to go further on

 7     in the translation, on page 2, General Galic orders:

 8             "Reports are to be sent till 14:30 hours referring to the

 9     situation at 14:00 hours and at 18:30 hours, referring to the situation

10     at 18:00.  Commander of units have a obligation to report on the phone to

11     Durbin 332 or 348 every day, from 06:00 - 06:30 and from 19:00 - 19:30."

12             These were the regular reporting times of the

13     Sarajevo Romanija Corps; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The reference to Durbin in the two extensions, those were the

16     extensions for the SRK command duty operations centre; correct?

17        A.   Probably.

18             MR. WEBER:  If we could have page 2 of the B/C/S version, it's

19     just a list of the brigades and actually other units of the SRK.

20        Q.   These were all the units that were required to report according

21     to the schedule; correct?

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 32541 into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7404.

Page 35969

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Sir, I want to shift a little bit now to your time as a regiment

 4     commander in a corps regiment and your time in the SRK command.

 5             During that time, assistant commanders in the corps command

 6     reported directly -- you're familiar with the fact that they reported

 7     directly to the SRK commander; right?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat that question?  The commanders within the

 9     corps?  You mean brigade commanders?

10        Q.   I'm happy to clarify.  The assistant commanders of the different

11     sectors, whether it be intelligence or security, Mr. Lugonja;

12     Tadija Manojlovic in artillery, those individuals.  They would report

13     directly to the corps commander; correct?

14        A.   Well, assistant commanders reported regularly at daily briefings

15     if they were in a position to be present at the command post or

16     elsewhere.  They regularly reported to the command.

17        Q.   After you became part of the corps artillery regiment, you

18     yourself reported to General Mladic on the combat readiness of artillery

19     units; right?

20        A.   I did not report to the Main Staff.  I was tied to the corps

21     command and sent my reports to the corps command.

22        Q.   Well, you attended meetings where you actually briefed

23     General Mladic on the combat readiness of your unit, your regiment,

24     right?

25        A.   I really can't recall.  I seem to remember I was present at one

Page 35970

 1     meeting.  Maybe there were reports about combat readiness or some

 2     briefing.  Maybe it was especially organised for some occasion.  I

 3     remember only one meeting while I was in the regiment.  Whether it

 4     discussed combat readiness or there was a briefing about the general

 5     situation in the unit without discussing combat readiness or it was just

 6     general information, I really can't remember.

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8        A.   But I'm not --

 9        Q.   That meeting was on the 30th of June, 1994 in Jahorina, correct,

10     with a bunch of the other SRK senior officers?

11        A.   Yes.  That's the meeting I mean.  I know it was held at Jahorina.

12     I don't know which date or month.  But while I was commander at the

13     regiment, that's the time when the meeting took place.

14        Q.   Now, Colonel Tadija Manojlovic, he would do periodic analyses of

15     the readiness of the SRK's artillery units; correct?

16        A.   Probably.  I can't remember, really.  But, yes, he probably made

17     analyses.  I know he was in constant contact with commanders of artillery

18     units and chiefs of artillery.  And based on all the activities the units

19     were involved in, he probably made his analyses.  I don't remember any

20     particular reporting, but he must have been informing the corps commander

21     based on his own information about the situation in the units.

22        Q.   Now, you've mentioned morning briefings.  There were morning

23     briefings of the corps command; correct?

24        A.   In the corps command?  To be honest, I was there for less than a

25     year, but I spent most of my time at forward command posts of the corps.

Page 35971

 1     They did have briefings.  Sometimes it was in the morning, sometimes in

 2     the evening, but they had regular meetings.  I don't know if it was on a

 3     daily basis.  Sometimes it would happen that only the duty operations

 4     officer was at the corps command.  Everyone else was out in the field.

 5     But when they were there, they had regular briefings.

 6        Q.   Sir, tasks would be assigned at these briefings; correct?

 7        A.   Naturally.

 8        Q.   I want to now change topics with you and discuss -- I'll

 9     eventually actually go through some of your previous Karadzic testimony

10     you gave regarding the acceptability of targeting with artillery and

11     mortars.  But before we look at some of that, I just have a couple of

12     general questions.

13             You agree that the type of weapon used depends on the type of

14     target, the military advantage that is sought, and the proximity of

15     civilians and civilian structures; right?  You agree with that?

16        A.   I agree.  Generally speaking, it depends on the target, on its

17     fortification, on how well its covered, on the distance from civilian

18     buildings and civilians.  It had to be carefully selected.  I always

19     selected --

20        Q.   Sir --

21        A.   -- the artillery piece that is the best suited for neutralising a

22     military target.

23        Q.   I understand you want to explain yourself, but let's go through

24     this and then you'll have an opportunity if you want.

25             In urban areas densely populated with civilians, the use of

Page 35972

 1     highly destructive weapons would carry a huge risk of casualties to

 2     civilians; right?

 3        A.   Certainly.  Civilian casualties were not avoidable regardless of

 4     the weapon used.  Considering that the firing positions of the enemy's

 5     side were --

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   -- located in such a way that they directly endangered civilians.

 8        Q.   Please listen to my question carefully.  If a commander seeks to

 9     destroy, let's say, a command post, a communications centre, or a police

10     station in a fortified brick or cement building, artillery rounds would

11     fire multiple rounds -- artillery units would fire multiple rounds in

12     order to destroy the building if that's what their task was; right?

13        A.   Certainly.  If it's a fortified position, then you have to choose

14     your weapon adequately.  There is no point in using a weak weapon because

15     then you won't inflict any damage on the target.  If it's a military

16     target, you have to choose the right weapon to destroy it.

17        Q.   And maybe just more simply here, if the task was to destroy a

18     target, rounds would be fired until that target is destroyed - right? -

19     if that's the task?

20        A.   Not a single target can be completely destroyed.  It can be

21     neutralised to some degree and that's how we fired.  We couldn't do

22     otherwise.  A huge amount of ammunition is needed to completely destroy a

23     target.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The question, the gist of the question was a

25     different one.  The gist of the question is that you would need, almost

Page 35973

 1     always, to fire more than one round to engage the target effectively.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, the use of ammunition

 3     depends on the degree of neutralisation, whether you are neutralising it

 4     20 per cent or 30 per cent or 50 per cent.  If the weapon has more

 5     destructive power, less ammunition has to be used, and vice versa.  It

 6     depends on the degree of neutralisation of the target.  The more you want

 7     to neutralise it, the more ammunition you use.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that also depend on whether you would hit the

 9     target right away or whether you would need a second round or perhaps a

10     third round to hit the target sufficiently to reach the level of

11     destruction you intend to achieve?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there are one or maybe two

13     correction rounds before group firing.  Group firing is needed to

14     complete neutralisation, to inflict losses.  If you wanted to neutralise

15     the firing position of the enemy artillery, it's a surface target that

16     can be fortified, it can have covers for personnel and ammunition, but

17     it's in the open so you can inflict losses to equipment, or personnel to

18     some degree, and their ammunition as well.  So with 25 per cent

19     neutralisation, if we prevented further action from the enemy, we could

20     consider that we have accomplished our mission.  It would mean that we

21     stopped the enemy from firing, they would have to replenish their assets,

22     et cetera -- and personnel of course.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, I appreciate what the JNA firing rules for artillery say,

25     and in my question I was asking you about destruct missions, destroy

Page 35974

 1     missions.  You've, in your answers, chosen to describe them as

 2     "neutralisation" or "neutralising missions."  Under the JNA firing rules,

 3     there's three types of possible of missions, right:  You can neutralise,

 4     you can annihilate, or you can destroy.  Those are all different types of

 5     firing missions; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in your answers to this Chamber, you've chosen to describe

 8     what would be the least use of force as a type of mission, despite not

 9     being asked that in my question; correct?

10        A.   I am saying this to you because enormous quantities of ammunition

11     were needed to destroy a target.  There are special tables for

12     calculating that.  Even for neutralising 25 per cent, let alone if these

13     are fortified targets.  That is why we could not have destruction as our

14     objective.  Vast quantities of ammunition were needed and we didn't have

15     that ammunition, and that is why I explained this neutralisation.

16        Q.   All right.  Moving on.  Firing at inhabited settlements which are

17     not part of any combat action, you'd agree with me that that's improper;

18     right?

19        A.   Certainly.  If there was no firing from that area, then it is

20     inappropriate.

21        Q.   It is also the responsibility of the commander to know whether

22     fire is being directed into a civilian settlement or an area where

23     civilians may be present; right?

24        A.   He would have to know and he would have to take care of that;

25     that is to say, not to have civilian targets -- that is to say, if there

Page 35975

 1     are no military targets close to civilian buildings and facilities.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32641,

 3     page 18.  And if we could go to the middle of the page.  I'll be starting

 4     at line 12.

 5        Q.   This is a part of your --

 6             MR. WEBER:  Line 12.

 7        Q.   This is a part of your previous testimony in the Karadzic case

 8     where you discuss orders for firing on some general area.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move up slightly.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   You were asked the question:

12             "Can we agree that it would be inappropriate and, indeed, illegal

13     to simply order firing at some general area?"

14             You answered:

15             "I'm not aware of any such orders.  I don't know if there were

16     any.  I never received any such orders, orders to that effect."

17             The next question was:

18             "You appreciate that doesn't quite answer my question; right?"

19             Your answer:

20             "I would consider this to be illegal.  Firing upon a city without

21     a specific target, that would be inflicting terror on the civilians, on

22     the population of the city of Sarajevo.  I myself never did that.  I

23     myself never received an order to that effect."

24             Do you stand by this testimony?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35976

 1        Q.   Some general ordered to fire into an area of the city, like

 2     Bascarsija or something like that, you consider that to be illegal?

 3        A.   I did not consider any such thing because I never received any

 4     such order.  I would say that it is unlawful, of course, but I never

 5     received such an order.  I cannot say that that is what I considered it

 6     to be because that would mean that I had received such an order, but I'm

 7     saying now that without any kind of such target, no, it's not lawful.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 12.  And if we

 9     could please go to line 19.

10        Q.   This is a part of your testimony related to mortars.  You were

11     asked:

12             "Well, Colonel, mortars are, generally speaking, anti-personnel

13     weapons; correct?"

14             Your answer:

15             "Yes."

16             Next question:

17             "Okay.  They're not intended as heavy weapons to blow up

18     buildings; right?"

19             "A. No, that's not the intention.  But they can be used to

20     destroy trenches and inflicting losses to the troops as well as the

21     destruction of some lighter structures belonging to the enemy side."

22             "Q.  But more specifically, for example, you wouldn't use a

23     weapon against, for example, a reinforced command post, wouldn't do much

24     good; right?"

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Whispering, whispering, Mr. Mladic.  Nothing else.

Page 35977

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Your answer to that last question was:

 3             "It depended on the reinforcement of the facility, how well

 4     reinforced it is.  I wouldn't use mortars if shells are not supposed to

 5     achieve any effect due to the level of reinforcement of such a facility."

 6             "Q.  What about, for example, a sniper in a building, would a

 7     mortar have any significant utility there?"

 8             "A.  I would never use those."

 9             Do you stand by this previous testimony in this case?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In that case, I take it.

11             MR. WEBER:  In this --

12        Q.   Do you stand by the past testimony in this case, here today?  Do

13     you stand by this testimony?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was ambiguous.

15             MR. WEBER:  My apologies.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you stand by that testimony as read out to you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   I just want to turn to rockets and multiple barrel rocket

20     launchers briefly.

21             These type of rockets are suitable for open fire on surface

22     targets; right?  Meaning not targets that are sheltered.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Stojanovic, do we have to go back to

24     the little notes?  We note that -- we know that Mr. Mladic is able to

25     whisper at such a volume, then he should take off his earphones for a

Page 35978

 1     second.  We know that he can.  Therefore, if it continues like this, and

 2     it's in five minutes now the second or the third time, we have to go back

 3     to the little notes; that is, without speech.  It's up to you, yourself.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, do you need me to repeat the question?

 7        A.   Yes, it would be necessary.

 8        Q.   Of course.  Rockets and multiple barrel rocket launchers, with

 9     respect to that type of weaponry, these types of rockets are not -- are

10     suitable for open fire on surface targets; right?  That's what they're

11     used for.

12        A.   Yes, multiple rocket launchers are intended to target larger

13     areas, especially out in the open, or larger fortified buildings.

14        Q.   It's supposed to inflict casualties upon personnel in the open or

15     maybe in open trenches; right?  Those rockets.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

17     witness's answer.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, could you please repeat your answer.

20        A.   Yes, yes.  That is right.

21        Q.   Now, I want to move on to a different concept.  And I want to ask

22     you about the tactic of fire control.

23             Fire control is when artillery or mortars are used to keep a road

24     under constant fire; correct?

25        A.   Fire control does not mean opening fire.  It means control.  It

Page 35979

 1     means to be able to review a certain road, as you said.  And also to

 2     prevent the penetration of the enemy bringing in forces along that road.

 3     It means keeping it under control.  It doesn't mean firing at that road

 4     all the time, or any other location for that matter.  If one says "under

 5     control," under control does not mean firing at the same time.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can all other microphones

 7     please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 8             MR. WEBER:  That's understood.

 9             Could we -- I see the transcript has disappeared from our screen,

10     but if we could please go to page 25 of 65 ter 32641.

11        Q.   On this page of the transcript at the top, you were discussing --

12     actually Mr. Tieger was informing you about a -- evidence of a former

13     member of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade who had explained, among

14     other things, about a road that was held within VRS territory that was

15     held constantly under fire and therefore under control of the BH Army.

16     Then Mr. Tieger asked you, and I'm starting at line 6:

17             "Am I correct that this tactic, that is, keeping a road under --

18     constantly under fire, is something that's referred to generally as fire

19     control and were you familiar with that approach to the use of artillery

20     by either of the ABiH or VRS?"

21             Your answer was:

22             "Yes, if you're referring to the Hresa-Vogosca road.  It's the

23     only road and I link to the south and south-western [as interpreted] part

24     of Sarajevo, Serbian Sarajevo at the time.  I know that the road was

25     under sniper fire from the Muslim forces in several areas and also it --

Page 35980

 1     mortars fired on it.  There were casualties.  It was difficult to use the

 2     road to get to Vogosca, Ilija, Ilidza, and so on and so forth.  The

 3     Muslim forces frequently fired on that road."

 4             And then if we could please scroll down.

 5             Later on then Mr. Tieger, starting at line 25, asked you:

 6             "I didn't direct your attention to the use of fire control on any

 7     particular road.  I'm just asking if you're familiar with the concept

 8     generally."

 9             Your answer:

10             "Yes, I am."

11             The next question was:

12             "And am I correct that that's something that would be appropriate

13     or lawful in the context of a road that was -- a communication road that

14     was outside the city and controlled by the opposite side's forces but

15     would not be lawful in the context of a road in a densely populated urban

16     area?"

17             Your answer:

18             "Yes, that's correct.  It wouldn't be correct to fire on a

19     densely inhabited area.  All the streets, all the roads, are used by the

20     inhabitants, by civilians, so it wouldn't be lawful to fire on the

21     civilians, to fire on those streets; and we didn't act this way."

22             Do you stand by this testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now go to Exhibit P6601.

25        Q.   Before you is an SRK command order dated 9 May 1995 from

Page 35981

 1     Dragomir Milosevic.  Directing your attention to item 2, where it

 2     discusses the internal ring and mentions the area of Debelo Brdo and also

 3     Grdonj.  And then in the same part of this order, toward the end,

 4     General Milosevic states SRK forces are to "place a major part of

 5     Stari Grad under fire control with the objective of ultimate victory."

 6             First of all, based on the locations referenced in the paragraph,

 7     General Milosevic is ordering fire control on a major part of the

 8     municipality of Stari Grad - the municipality, not just the old town;

 9     right?

10        A.   No, that is the municipality of Stari Grad, the old town, and the

11     combat activities that were planned for the area of Brajkovac and

12     Vranjace belonged to that municipality.  So that is part of the

13     municipality of Stari Grad, the old town.  It's not the entire old town.

14        Q.   Yes, but the area of -- I mean, the Chamber has heard a lot of

15     evidence about these areas, so I -- but you'll agree with me the area of

16     Grdonj is to the north of the old town by the area of Sedrenik and

17     Debelo Brdo is to the south of old town near the area of Colina Kapa;

18     right?

19        A.   Grdonj is to the north of Centar, the municipality of Centar.

20     Whereas Brajkovac, Debelo Brdo is to the south.  It's part of the old

21     town.  Part -- it is to the south of the inhabited part of old town.

22     Grdonj is on the opposite side and that is the municipality of Centar.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

24     versions.

25        Q.   And, sir, I'm going to be directing your attention to

Page 35982

 1     section 5.1.

 2             This is the part of the order that relates to the tasks of the

 3     1st Smbr and mentions, among other things, the continuance of offensive

 4     activities, co-ordinated actions with the SRK DIO units, sabotage and

 5     reconnaissance units, and objective of seizing Debelo Brdo.  There is

 6     then a later reference in the paragraph to combined fire with sniper and

 7     infantry weapons and the SRK DIO commander.  You then yourself are

 8     mentioned later in this paragraph.

 9             Sir, earlier you told me that you weren't aware of any DIO units

10     in the SRK.  The fact is, you co-ordinated actions with commanders of

11     sabotage and reconnaissance units; right?  That's what we see here.

12        A.   At first, when the examination started, you asked me whether I

13     collected information from some sabotage and reconnaissance units, and it

14     is in that sense that I said that we did not have sabotage units so that

15     I could gather information from them.

16             As for the DIO of the SRK, it was established, I don't know

17     exactly when, that was later, and it took part in that operation of

18     improving the tactical position at Debelo Brdo and Vranjace.  And I did

19     work in co-ordination.  I supported with artillery the DIO in that

20     mission.

21        Q.   The sabotage and reconnaissance units had sniper equipment;

22     right?  And that's in this order.

23        A.   Probably.  This was an attack against bunkers and

24     fortifications --

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 35983

 1        A.   -- so during the artillery preparations --

 2        Q.   We'll look at what happened around there, but please focus on my

 3     questions.

 4             What was the name of the SRK DIO commander?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember, Srdjan Knezevic, commander.

 6        Q.   And I see, because it says "SRK DIO commander," he was directly

 7     subordinated to the SRK command; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This paragraph orders barrage fire and support that we're looking

10     at, 5.1, orders barrage fire and support from 82-millimetre and

11     120-millimetre mortars along the direction of Skenderija and also

12     laterally along a major street that we see, Zelengorska Street, that goes

13     towards the city centre from Colina Kapa.  You do acknowledge that these

14     were orders to fire into the inner ring, the city; right?

15        A.   There is no order issued here to fire at the city, to fire at

16     Skenderija.  If a direction is referred to in an order, then the

17     direction can be Zlatiste, Kula, Brajkovac, Skenderija.  That is that

18     direction.  But it doesn't mean that one targets Skenderija or anywhere

19     else within the inner ring.  I do not see here that there is any

20     reference to targeting the inner ring.  I remember this.  Vranjace and

21     Brajkovac were the areas that were planned.  I remember this.

22        Q.   Sir, we'll look at what it is.  I understand you want to try to

23     explain.  But my question was very much simple.  It's just that

24     Skenderija is inside what the SRK called the inner ring; right?

25        A.   Skenderija is within the city, yes.  But there is no order to

Page 35984

 1     target Skenderija.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the B/C/S

 3     and page 4 of the translation.

 4        Q.   In item 6 -- I'm just waiting for it on the B/C/S.  In item 6 of

 5     the order, it states:

 6             "Forces carrying out combat operations in the Debelo Brdo sector

 7     are supported by an 82-millimetre mortar platoon and a 120-millimetre

 8     battery from the sector of Trebevic-Palez, while the remaining support

 9     shall be by decision of the brigade commanders and artillery chiefs."

10             These batteries were located in the Smbr's zone of

11     responsibility; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In your statement, we see that you don't mention any of these

14     mortars or batteries; correct?  Specifically what I'm referring to is in

15     paragraph 12 of your statement, you mention a bunch of the SRK's firing

16     positions in the Smbr's zone of responsibility but you do not make

17     mention of this platoon or battery in the area of Trebevic.

18        A.   Once again, I'm telling you the 82 platoon mortar is firing

19     support, and 120-millimetre mortars are precisely from one of those

20     firing positions that I mentioned, Uzdojnica or Prljavo Brdo, I cannot

21     remember which battery it was exactly.  However, it is from these

22     positions that four mortars were taken, just for this activity.  With --

23     transfer to Palez, and after that they were returned to their position.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, the question to you was:  In your statement,

25     you do not mention these mortar batteries, and I don't remember -- I

Page 35985

 1     don't see an answer to that question in your response.  Or do you not

 2     mention it in your statement?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you now it is those

 4     batteries -- it is actually that battery, 120-millimetre mortar battery.

 5     It's not a separate battery.  Just imagine throughout the war one cannot

 6     be in a single position.  Positions change depending on active

 7     operations, defensive operations, any operations.  This has to do with

 8     the tactical improvement of positions.  And from the firing position from

 9     one of these batteries that I mentioned, four artillery pieces were taken

10     out and they were placed in the area of Palez in order to have this

11     activity carried out.  It was not a separate battery of any kind.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I leave it to you.

13             MR. WEBER:  Just so we have it on the record here.

14        Q.   This Chamber has received a lot of evidence about this firing

15     position, and I put it to you that what you're saying is not the truth,

16     that there was a firing position here throughout the war.  They've heard

17     from many witnesses from the 1st Smbr.  I just want to give you an

18     opportunity to comment before I move on.

19        A.   I have no other comment because I personally know I was

20     responsible for that.  I prepared the artillery.  So it is those mortars

21     from one of these two batteries that I mentioned in the statement.  So

22     they were temporarily relocated for carrying out this combat task and

23     then they were returned.

24             If you allow me, I would like to say that UNPROFOR was at my

25     firing positions and they were aware of this.  You can get that

Page 35986

 1     information, when it was that the weapons were taken from a firing

 2     position and when they were returned.

 3        Q.   Sir, did you carry out General Milosevic's ordinary that he

 4     issued to you here?  That we're looking at.  Did you carry it out?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31498 for

 7     the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I meanwhile -- I'm perhaps a bit confused.

 9     The question related to what was read to you in relation to an

10     82-millimetre mortar and the 120-millimetre battery from the sector of

11     Trebevic-Palez.

12             Now, in your answer you focused highly on the 120-millimetre

13     mortar.  Would your answer apply to the 82-millimetre mortar as well?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 82-millimetre mortar,

15     specifically in this operation, in this order, I was responsible for the

16     use of these mortars:  82 and 120.  But only under this order in this

17     operation, because my job was to organise artillery support for the units

18     that were actually carrying out the offensive action at Brajkovac.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The question then, I think, was whether these

20     batteries were located in your zone of responsibility, that's true for

21     the 82-millimetre mortars as well?

22             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, just so we don't have any

23     confusion, this is a document from 1995.  And I believe, consistent with

24     the witness's evidence, he's no longer in the Smbr at that time but at a

25     different position.

Page 35987

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That then could be -- I then leave it in your

 2     hands, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm going to try to -- before you is a -- well, I want to

 5     look at what was going on right after this order.

 6             Before you is an UNPROFOR weekly situation report for the week of

 7     8 to 15 May 1995.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the

 9     English and page 5 of the B/C/S translation.

10        Q.   I'm going to direct your attention to paragraph 8.  In this

11     report, it states:

12             "On 12 May, 2211 firing incidents were recorded in the whole of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina; Sarajevo accounted for 72 per cent of these firing

14     incidents.  In brazen violation of the Sarajevo Total Exclusion Zone

15     which bans heavy weapons from 20 kilometres of the city -- of the centre

16     of Sarajevo, Serbs have moved tanks and heavy weapons within the zone and

17     boldly fired mortars into the heart of the city.  In the morning of

18     10 May, Serbs shelled the heart of Sarajevo's old town.  Shelling has

19     been stepped-up not only on Sarajevo's supply routes of Igman road and

20     around the tunnel, but also on the confrontation line and on the

21     down-town area."

22             This is how you and the Sarajevo Romanija Corps were carrying out

23     operations at the time of the order we just looked at.  That's the truth.

24        A.   I know where combat actions were planned for the artillery for

25     which I was responsible in that operation.  That is clearly written in

Page 35988

 1     the order.  Opening fire.  Fire action was clearly planned.  And if you

 2     have the map for that operation, you can see exactly where firing was

 3     planned and what was targeted.  Whether something else was also targeted,

 4     I don't know.  But I also know that our observation post and our

 5     positions were fired at very strongly, and we suffered losses as well.

 6     But if there was return fire, that was in response to the fire from the

 7     building.

 8        Q.   Sir, I don't think you've really answered my question.  I mean,

 9     you're firing over a thousand rounds into areas of Sarajevo, including

10     the down-town area, is exactly the type of thing that you were

11     considering illegal.  And that -- this is the truth of how that order was

12     carried out, what we see here; right?

13        A.   You're asking me about unlawful targeting of civilian buildings

14     without any purpose.  That's what unlawful firing means to me.  But

15     firing at the enemy who is located next to civilian positions is not

16     unlawful, in my eyes.  At that time, there were strong artillery fire

17     from Pofalici, Pula, the railway station, the brickworks --

18        Q.   Sir, can I just stop --

19        A.   We were under fierce attack, and I myself was wounded in that

20     action.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

22             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's more or less time for a break.

24             But I would like to have one -- you're talking about Pofalici,

25     you're talking about other areas.  This report says the heart of the

Page 35989

 1     town.  That's not Pofalici.  That's not the areas you are mentioning,

 2     isn't it?  So perhaps if you have anything to add to your answer after

 3     the break, you'll have an opportunity to add anything.  And then please

 4     focus on what is written in this report rather than what may have

 5     happened in other areas.

 6             We would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We'll take a break.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at quarter to 2.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, I am

12     going to be continuing on this document.  But if I could have the next

13     page in the B/C/S version, that would be appreciated.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do, Mr. Weber, if you can just

16     look at page 71, line 7, I think you were quoting from the UNPROFOR

17     report.  It's on the 12th of May, and you said in the year 2211.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was quoting directly from paragraph 8

19     of the report, and I understand the reference to be the date and then the

20     number of firing incidents.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.  You may follow up on

23     what I put to the witness before the break, if you wish.

24             MR. WEBER:  I have no further questions.  I don't know if the

25     Chamber did.

Page 35990

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I've then one other question.

 2             I invited you to think about your answer in view of the text

 3     which was talking about the heart of the town and not about areas such as

 4     Pofalici, which is not really the heart of the town.  So you have an

 5     opportunity to say something about that, if you wish.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I started

 7     enumerating and just by chance I began with Pofalici, Zuc, the

 8     brickworks, the railway station, et cetera.  But it's indisputable that

 9     throughout the war mortar firing positions and positions of other

10     artillery pieces were in the core of the city, the old town.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I was talking about this specific incident where it

12     was said that on the 12th of May that some 1500 firing incidents were

13     reported and that included the heart of Sarajevo's old town.  I'm not

14     talking about the whole of the war, just that incident.  Whether you can

15     add something to your answer in relation to that specific aspect.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I was about to say, and

17     I said a moment ago that there was probably return fire from Serb

18     artillery at the positions from was they fired at us.  And before my

19     microphone was cut off, I said that I had been wounded myself on that

20     occasion, along with several other soldiers at the observation post.

21             The point is that we did not open fire without any reason.  We

22     fired only at targets from which we were fired at, military targets.

23     That's why we targeted these buildings.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any specific examples then for that day?

25     Do you remember any details of that?

Page 35991

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the details.  For

 2     instance, when our observation post was hit and a dozen of us were

 3     wounded.  I remember that we started this operation as planned with fire

 4     at --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then tell us what you fired in return to

 6     you being hit?  What did you target when you returned fire at that

 7     moment?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember specifically the

 9     sector, but we fired at the place where we could see fire was coming from

10     and where other observation posts told us that we were being fired at.  I

11     cannot specifically remember the position now.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And that was the kind of information I was

13     seeking, because earlier you told us that you knew about the planned

14     targets, but you also said that that whatever targets may have been

15     engaged you wouldn't know.  You said whether something else was also

16     targeted, you don't know.  At the same time you claim that, and it's a

17     large number of shells being fired, apparently, you have no idea from the

18     reports later what was then fired at, what was targeted in those close to

19     1500, as reported?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the fire was not

21     opened by the brigade unit but also by other units of the corps if it was

22     around the periphery.  My responsibility was part of Debelo Brdo,

23     Brajkovac, and Vranjace, to cover that tactical position.  Since our

24     positions were targeted by enemy artillery from the inside of the city,

25     we had to also return fire to those other positions, although we had

Page 35992

 1     planned fire only for a part of that specific combat operation.  We also

 2     had to return fire at positions that we were being fired at from.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you can't tell us exactly what they were.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot specifically remember now.

 5     It's been 20 years.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not blaming you from not remembering.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Colonel Simic, you've just given us a bunch of justifications the

10     last couple of minutes, and the fact is we've seen the orders that were

11     issued around this time by General Milosevic that said place areas of

12     Stari Grad under fire control.  What we see here are areas being placed

13     under fire within the municipality of Stari Grad.  You're just making up

14     reasons and not telling the truth; right?

15        A.   No, that's not true.  I'm not making anything up.  I have made a

16     solemn oath and I am saying with full responsibility what I'm saying.

17             Our purpose was to free up the road going from Zlatiste towards

18     Pale that was targeted on a daily basis by the Muslim forces with

19     snipers, with mortars.  Their firing positions were only a hundred metres

20     away.  The purpose was to move them a hundred or two hundred metres

21     further away so they can't endanger the road.  It's part of the

22     Stari Grad municipality, part of the old town.

23        Q.   Let's just go to the next paragraph.  Serbs -- in paragraph 9, it

24     says:

25             "Serbs appear to be co-ordinating their increased military

Page 35993

 1     activity with other measures to tighten the siege of Sarajevo."

 2             And then the report explains how the airport had been closed for

 3     humanitarian aid flights since 8 April.  It's just over a month.  "...

 4     the longest stoppage since September 1992."

 5             The restriction of humanitarian aid was co-ordinated with VRS

 6     operations in Sarajevo.  That's what happened; right?

 7        A.   As far as I know, humanitarian aid passed unhindered through the

 8     positions and sectors of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps without any problem.

 9     That's the extent of my knowledge.

10        Q.   This document then also goes on to explain how the flow of gas

11     into Bosnia, and it's a Zvornik gas station, currently levels of gas

12     entering the city on behalf of those are having trouble.  The SRK

13     command, while you were a part of it, received orders to stop utilities

14     in the Sarajevo area; correct?

15        A.   I don't know.  I was a desk officer in the artillery organ.  Such

16     orders normally did not pass my desk, so I'm not familiar with such

17     orders.  Nor was I in any position either to prevent or to allow the

18     passage of convoys, so speaking of the need-to-know basis, I did not need

19     to know that.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence,

21     65 ter 31498.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7405.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32635 for

Page 35994

 1     the witness.

 2        Q.   This is a 6 September 1995 VRS Main Staff order from

 3     General Mladic to the SRK command.  It's at a time when you were a

 4     subordinate to Colonel Manojlovic.  The order relates to the supply of

 5     utilities in Sarajevo.

 6             The preamble, we can see that General Mladic is discussing

 7     attacks by NATO after, based on this timing, Markale II, that shelling,

 8     and how the attacks put the supply of utilities to the Serbian population

 9     of Sarajevo at risk.  The first item of the order then states:

10             "Immediately stop supplying water, electricity, and gas to the

11     Muslim part of Sarajevo."

12             First, you agree this order seeks to retaliate on the entire

13     Muslim part of Sarajevo because of the NATO air strikes; right?

14        A.   I cannot comment on the orders from the Main Staff.  I don't know

15     what to say.  I don't know about this order.  This is the first time I'm

16     seeing it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you invite the witness to explain a

18     document which he doesn't know to ask him about facts he knows?  And

19     otherwise, if the document speaks for itself, we don't need the witness.

20     This Chamber can read.  But if there is any fact to the knowledge of the

21     witness which would shed a different light on what we read here, we'd

22     like to hear.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know any facts about

24     cutting electricity, water, anything.  I've never heard about this order

25     before.

Page 35995

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Well, sir, I mean this was a rather notable time, I imagine, in

 3     the SRK command.  The fact is, is that -- I mean, we've also received

 4     evidence that water, utilities, electricity were cut off at various times

 5     throughout the war, and I put it to you it's not credible that you had no

 6     knowledge of any of these types of things while you were a part of the

 7     SRK command?

 8        A.   I know that there were sometimes power cuts and cuts of other

 9     supplies due to combat actions, and sometimes these supply lines took a

10     long time to repair, precisely because the Muslim side was doing

11     everything to disturb the repairmen in order to blame it on us.  And they

12     harassed --

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   -- all the time --

15        Q.   Sir, that's --

16        A.   We were not able to recover supply to their side.

17        Q.   So you heard a lot about a lot of the things, but that's not what

18     this order says; right?  What you were just explaining.

19        A.   Such orders I have never seen, but I heard that there had been

20     attempt by crews to go out and repair certain supply lines, but the

21     Muslim side did not allow them to.  It was not safe to go to that area.

22     All with a view to portraying it as terror from the Serb side.  That's

23     what I heard, but I was never there on the spot in order to be able to

24     confirm.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders the document.

Page 35996

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. WEBER:  And I don't know if Your Honours any more questions

 3     on it before I move on.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document receives number P7406.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   The mass and nonselective or indiscriminate use of artillery and

 8     mortars throughout the city of Sarajevo would be improper; right?

 9        A.   Nonselective use?  Yes.

10        Q.   And not just nonselective use but using massive amounts of

11     artillery and mortars in a nonselective manner would be truly improper;

12     right?

13        A.   I believe firing is always improper if there is no purpose.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if the witness answers that nonselective

15     use of artillery is improper, what is the gist of the question to ask him

16     whether that on a massive scale would be improper?

17             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, it goes without saying.  The witness has

19     answered the question --

20             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and it's not here to rub in certain matters but

22     rather to seek evidence on facts.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Units of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps habitually engaged in the

25     mass and nonselective use of artillery; right?

Page 35997

 1        A.   No, that's not right.  I can only speak about the units that I

 2     was responsible for.  There was no nonselective fire on Sarajevo or

 3     civilian buildings.  We fired exclusively on previously observed military

 4     targets, including some inside the city.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, this question also is very repetitious.

 7     I mean, the witness has explained several times that -- how he targeted.

 8     Now, to put it again to him and to receive the same answer just doesn't

 9     assist the Chamber greatly.  If you want to put a document to the

10     witness, please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32626 for the witness.

13        Q.   This is a combat operations analysis of SRK artillery units from

14     the first half of 1995.  The analysis is authored by Tadija Manojlovic,

15     your immediate superior at the time.  As Colonel Manojlovic's assistant

16     in July 1995, certainly you would have provided some type of input for

17     this type of analysis; correct?

18        A.   Probably.  But I can't remember it.  I'm trying to read.  It's

19     quite probable that I gave my input in the making of this analysis.

20        Q.   The first paragraph of this analysis states:

21             "In the course of 1995, artillery units of the SRK were carried

22     out" --

23             I'm sorry.

24             "In the course of 1995, artillery units of the SRK were carrying

25     out combat operations noted as b/d under very complex and difficult

Page 35998

 1     conditions, when firepower ratio greatly shifted in the enemy's

 2     favour ..."

 3             It then goes on to state:

 4             "... and old habits of our soldiers and units for the mass and

 5     unselective use of the artillery were putting additional strain on

 6     command and the completion of combat tasks of the artillery units."

 7             First of all, the shift in fire-power that's being referred to

 8     here, that relates to a Muslim offensive that began in mid-June 1995;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Well, the enemy offensive began earlier.  Maybe even in the

11     beginning of June.  There were fierce attacks and attempts to break

12     through our defensive positions.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you to describe it right now.  But that's

14     what's being referred to here; right?

15        A.   I can't see that.  I see year 1995.  Why are we then mentioning

16     1992?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It was the question, Witness, whether this was a

18     reference to what happened, as Mr. Weber said, in mid-June 1995.  And

19     then you said it was already earlier; that is, the beginning of June

20     1995.  That's why it was mentioned.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He mentioned 1992.  That's why I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there may be a mistake there.

23             When you referred to early June, did you refer to early June 1995

24     attempts to break through your defensive positions?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I meant 1992 because that's

Page 35999

 1     what I seem to have heard in the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please resume, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   The information we see in this paragraph was known throughout the

 5     SRK command; right?  That's why Colonel Manojlovic would do such an

 6     analysis.

 7        A.   The commander probably knew and whoever else needed to know.

 8        Q.   We see in this analysis, quite a significant and important type

 9     of document, that SRK soldiers and units habitually used mass amounts of

10     artillery in an unselective manner.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And we are talking about 1995.

12             MR. WEBER:  Well, habits.  So we are talking about habits, would

13     be the Prosecution's position.

14        Q.   That old habits of our soldiers and units for the massive and

15     unselective use of artillery.

16             Sir, as an immediate subordinate of Colonel Manojlovic, you must

17     have been aware of such information; right?  That this was the habits?

18     That there were habits among soldiers and units in the SRK like this?

19        A.   If the reference here is to old habits, it's probably the initial

20     period of the war.  There were probably some units that used artillery

21     more than necessary.  That's probably why this was written; namely, that

22     these old habits continued in individual cases.

23        Q.   So you're aware of this?  It sounds like you're describing -- I

24     mean, you're describing facts.  You're aware of this?

25        A.   I'm saying probably there were some units like that.  I know that

Page 36000

 1     in my units, for which I was responsible, we are talking about 1995 now,

 2     and until I was chief of artillery until mid-1994, there was no pointless

 3     use of artillery without any purpose or reason.  And especially not

 4     massive or excessive.  But if Colonel Manojlovic wrote this, it means

 5     that it was happening somewhere.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 32626 receives number P7407.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             Witness, you said:

11             "There was no pointless use of artillery without any purpose or

12     reason."

13             And then you said:

14             "And especially not massive or excessive."

15             If it didn't happen, what's the use of telling us that it

16     certainly was not massive or excessive?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was coming back to my statement,

18     saying that in my unit for which I was responsible, the period where I'm

19     indicated as chief of artillery, at that time there was no massive or

20     pointless use of artillery.  I exclusively targeted enemy targets.  That

21     was my point.  Neither of these applies to us.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             No, and when I say "please proceed," again I'm corrected by my

24     colleague who looks at the clock better than I do.

25             Mr. Simic, we'll adjourn for the day and we'd like to see you

Page 36001

 1     back tomorrow morning, and I'm pretty confident, I'm looking at the

 2     parties, that we'll conclude the evidence -- conclude to hear the

 3     evidence tomorrow.

 4             Mr. Weber, that's -- and you'll give us, once the witness has

 5     left the courtroom, will give us a further indication as to what you

 6     expect still to need.

 7             MR. WEBER:  I do expect to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Oh.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you to do that once the witness had left the

11     courtroom.

12             Mr. Simic, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

13     with anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about

14     your testimony; that is, testimony given today or testimony still to be

15     given tomorrow.  If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher, and

16     we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.  How often do I have

20     to say it now again.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  My client was just --

22     insisting to inform Your Honours that he will not be present with us

23     tomorrow.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  And he waives his right to be with us and the

Page 36002

 1     necessary documents will be signed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But he should do that at an inaudible

 3     volume.  That's what the instructions are.  But it's put on the record.

 4             And Mr. Mladic is also instructed several times not to

 5     communicate with the public gallery, which he does again now as well.  At

 6     least there will be no risk that he would do it tomorrow if he's not with

 7     us.  We are looking forward to see the paperwork, and Mr. Mladic will

 8     have heard that you announced that he would waive his right to be present

 9     tomorrow in court.

10             Mr. Weber, a time estimate.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm a little bit ahead of track right

12     now.  So I'm -- I imagine I have two hours left.  I do have to check one

13     matter that did come up today that would maybe prompt me to use my full

14     time, but I could give you a very firm answer as to how much I would cut

15     down from that full time in the morning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But there is no risk that we would not be able

17     to conclude the evidence, and there would be still some time left for the

18     Court to deal with a few procedural matters.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, as matters stand now, do you expect a lengthy

20     re-examination or a relatively short one?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, Your Honour, I

22     think that I will talk to the witness about two documents, and I think

23     that it would take more than 10 to 15 minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

25             We'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the

Page 36003

 1     22nd of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day

 4                           of May, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.