Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37118

 1                           Monday, 13 July 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             No preliminaries; therefore, we can immediately start to hear the

12     next witness's evidence.  The next witness will give its testimony

13     through videolink.  Therefore, the first thing we have to do is to

14     establish whether the videolink is functioning well.

15             I already see the representative of the Registry at the other

16     side of the videolink.  Could you confirm that you can hear us and that

17     you can see us?

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes.  Good morning, Your Honours.

19     We can see and hear you clearly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can see and hear you clearly as well.

21             Mr. Lukic, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  We are calling Mr. Bosko

23     Kelecevic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom at

25     the other side of the videolink.

Page 37119

 1             Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, just to put on the record, it's the

 3     Prosecution's position that the witness should be advised of his rights

 4     pursuant to the Rule 90(E).  I understand Mr. Lukic takes his standard

 5     objection to doing so, and I just wanted to raise it for the Chamber.  I

 6     know sometimes it's been done at the beginning and sometimes at the

 7     beginning of cross.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's do it the following way.  If Mr. Lukic

 9     has no questions which would require such a warning, then we'll do it at

10     the beginning of the examination by the party that thinks that there is a

11     need to do it.

12                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

14             Before I invite the witness to make the solemn declaration, could

15     the representative of the Registry tell the Chamber who are in the

16     videolink room?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Beside myself, it's the

18     witness and the ICTY technician.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Good morning, Mr. Kelecevic.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

21     require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text, as I can

22     see, has been handed out to you already, may I invite you to make that

23     solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.

25             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

Page 37120

 1     and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Kelecevic.

 3                           WITNESS:  BOSKO KELECEVIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 5                           [Witness appeared via videolink]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kelecevic, you'll first be examined by

 8     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 9             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

13             I can't hear you.  Good morning, General.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   For the record, would you kindly tell me, slowly, your full name.

16        A.   Bosko Kelecevic.

17        Q.   Mr. Kelecevic, did there come a time when you gave a written

18     statement to the Defence team of General Mladic?

19        A.   I did give one statement.  It was at the offices of the Tribunal.

20     I think it was the month of December 2001.

21        Q.   Thank you.  But my question was whether you have given a

22     statement to the Defence team of General Mladic.

23        A.   No, I have never had any contact with them.  Oh, you mean now?

24     Yes, yes.  I meant in 2001.  Yes, I have given a written statement that I

25     signed in my own hand.

Page 37121

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We'll now look at a document.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D1731.

 3        Q.   I see you have it on paper in front of you.  Let's wait until we

 4     have it here on the screen in the courtroom.

 5             On page 1, General, do you recognise the signature?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Whose is it?

 8        A.   Mine.

 9        Q.   Let's see the last page of the document.

10        A.   I got it.

11        Q.   Do you see a signature there?  Do you recognise it?

12        A.   I recognise it.

13        Q.   Whose is it?

14        A.   It's my signature.

15        Q.   General Kelecevic, did you have occasion to look through this

16     statement and is everything that you've said to the Defence team of

17     General Mladic recorded accurately?

18        A.   Everything is accurate, as I've read it and signed it.

19        Q.   Is it truthful, what you've read in the statement that you've

20     signed?

21        A.   As far as I'm concerned, it's truthful.

22        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today, would you give

23     essentially the same answers?

24        A.   The same answers, maybe.  Not exactly the same words but the

25     essence would be the same.

Page 37122

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We should like to tender

 2     General Kelecevic's statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be assigned Exhibit number D1110.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D1110 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General Kelecevic, thank you.  At this moment, we have no

 9     questions for you.  And we are not going to read the brief summary of the

10     witness's statement, because we'll hear everything through the

11     cross-examination and the public will be well informed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether the cross-examination will seek

13     to have the witness repeat all what he said in his statement, so you

14     can't rely on that.  And if it's not yet prepared, I would nevertheless

15     invite you to read the short summary then soon.  But if you have one,

16     please read it out now.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll just mention the topics that

18     General Kelecevic will testify to.

19             He speaks, first of all, about his career, the outbreak of the

20     war in Slovenia and in Croatia.  Then he's transferred to Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, first to Sarajevo, then to Banja Luka, the then 5th Corps,

22     where he was appointed chief of staff of the 5th Corps.  He later became

23     chief of staff of the 1st Corps of Republika Srpska.

24             General Kelecevic also talked to us about the Operation Corridor

25     in which he was actively involved beginning with the first operations.

Page 37123

 1     He also speaks about the events in Prijedor to the extent of his

 2     knowledge, and what he knows about the operation and the closing down of

 3     the Manjaca camp.

 4             That would be briefly the extent of Mr. Kelecevic's written

 5     testimony.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Lukic.  Perhaps unnecessary

 7     to say this, but often in the statement we do not find a clear source of

 8     knowledge.  Sometimes the evidence also is, to some extent, repetitious.

 9     But, for example, the Hambarine incident, he says how it was, where he

10     was, how he learned about that, that's all unknown, but perhaps during

11     cross-examination that may become clear.

12             Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

13             MR. TRALDI:  I am, though I'd ask that the Chamber give the

14     witness the advice we discussed earlier.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the Prosecution specifically invited me,

16     and that's what I'm doing now, to inform you about the content of

17     Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  I'll just read it to

18     you.  90(E) reads:

19             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

20     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

21     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

22     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

23     offence other than false testimony."

24             That means that if you fear that a truthful answer might tend to

25     incriminate yourself, please address me and ask to be relieved from your

Page 37124

 1     duty to answer that question.  The Chamber will then decide how we will

 2     proceed.

 3             Is that clear to you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.

 6     Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.  You'll soon see him on your

 7     screen.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

11        Q.   Good morning, General.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Sir, as you mentioned earlier, you were interviewed by the Office

14     of the Prosecutor in 2001 as a suspect.  Is it your position that you

15     told the truth at that time?

16        A.   Well, first of all, at that time I was not a suspect.  I told the

17     whole truth.  It's true that it was in 2001.  I did not receive any

18     minutes of that to remind myself of what exactly I talked about in 2001.

19        Q.   We may have occasion to see some examples over the next couple of

20     days.  But before we do, could we have 65 ter 32812.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps I add at this moment, Mr. Kelecevic,

22     whether you are considered to be a suspect or not has some legal

23     consequences, and the Prosecution apparently - unless you made a mistake,

24     Mr. Traldi - the Prosecution apparently interviewed you as a suspect.

25             MR. TRALDI:  We'll check and I'll report to the Chamber at the

Page 37125

 1     break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll later hear from you.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, this is --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, if I can help.  I just checked

 6     electronically that interview, and I don't see where it says --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi said he would come back to that.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I appreciate Mr. Lukic's assistance, as always.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Sir, this is a selection of excerpts from your personnel file

13     from the FRY Secretariat of National Defence.  Turning to page 19 in the

14     English, and 12 in the B/C/S, we see your assessment from General Talic

15     for the period 12 March 1992 to 12 March 1996.  In the middle of the page

16     in the English and at the top of the page in the B/C/S, we see the grade

17     5.00.  That's the highest possible grade; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Mr. Traldi, you need to bear with

20     me for a minute.  The document takes a while to open.

21             Could you direct me to the B/C/S page number, please.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Page 12 in the B/C/S.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And the numerical grade is at the top of the page.

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] You can proceed.  Thank you.

Page 37126

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   I think, General, you've confirmed that's the highest possible

 3     grade, 5.0.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn now to page 21 in the English

 5     and 13 in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   And what we see here is General Talic's descriptive grade.  He

 7     writes that you carry out the duty of chief of staff of the corps very

 8     successfully and that you planned and directly controlled the corridor

 9     operation.  And we see at the bottom you're awarded the favourable grade

10     of "excellent."

11             Now, this reflects General Talic's approval of your work as chief

12     of staff of the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

13        A.   Correct.  But if you allow me, I would like to say -- sorry, you

14     wanted to say something?

15        Q.   If you have an additional comment about this assessment, sir,

16     please go ahead.

17        A.   No, I have no comments about the assessment of General Talic, but

18     all my previous assessments, beginning with 1965, all of them were with

19     distinction.  It's not only the assessment of General Talic.  I met him

20     for the first time in 1993, in March.

21        Q.   You were interpreted to say 1993, sir.  Just for the transcript,

22     I'm sure you meant to say 1992; correct?

23        A.   1992, 1992.  In March.

24        Q.   Turning to page 27 in the B/C/S and 41 in the English, and here

25     we see General Mladic's proposal for a promotion for you dated the 14th

Page 37127

 1     of October, 1993.  Now, this is a proposal that's being made to the VJ;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, but it's not 1993.  It's 1992.

 4        Q.   Well, we see the date clearly marked 14 October 1993 in the top

 5     left.  You were also promoted in the VRS in 1992 after

 6     Operation Corridor; right?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Turn to page 42 in the English and the third-to-last paragraph on

 9     page 27 in the B/C/S.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this the same document?  You introduced it

11     earlier when the other page was on our screen as a proposal for a

12     promotion.  We didn't look at -- we still have the original on our left

13     screen, 14th of October.  Is that the one you're referring to?  Because

14     it looks to me that if there is another name under it?

15             MR. TRALDI:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  I am afraid I don't

16     entirely understand what I'm being asked.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You introduced the document as a -- and it is

18     the document which is on the left of my screen at this moment.  Oh, no.

19     I see that I'm reading it wrongly.  Yes.  No, it's fine.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   In the third-to-last paragraph of the document, we see

23     General Mladic assesses that you could be very much credited for

24     strengthening command and control in the KK, which is secured through

25     efficient engagement and steering of the staff organs, as well as lower

Page 37128

 1     formations on realisation of the commander's decision.

 2             Now, this describes your role as chief of staff of the

 3     1st Krajina Corps; right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.  But, Your Honours, I would like to see a few

 5     words --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  -- to be more specific.  In the

 8     5th Military District in Zagreb -- yes?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the question was whether this describes your

10     role as chief of --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please not interrupt me.  The question was

13     whether -- what was read to you, whether that describes your role as

14     chief of staff.  Now, if you have a matter which is directly linked to

15     that question, you may raise it.  If it is not directly linked to that

16     question, you should wait for the next question to be put to you.

17             So what you intended to say, is that directly related to the

18     question?  Then please proceed.  Otherwise, wait for the next question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is related to my

20     promotion.  I wanted to say that I was made general back in 1988 by a

21     decree made already in Zagreb in the 5th Military District.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be related to your promotion.  It was not

23     related to the question.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 37129

 1        Q.   Now --

 2        A.   All right.

 3        Q.   -- from Zagreb you were sent to the 2nd Military District when it

 4     was formed; right?

 5        A.   I was not sent there.  In reality, I was thrown out because it

 6     was the way the role of the command of the 5th Military District via

 7     Zagreb through Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we didn't go straight

 8     to Sarajevo but it went gradually through Plitvice, Slunj, Bihac, Kozara,

 9     up to Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to interrupt you --

11        A.   This withdrawal, this retreat lasted four months.

12        Q.   And I'm going to ask you to focus on my question.  Is it correct

13     that beginning on the 10th of January, 1992 when the 2nd Military

14     District of the JNA was formed, you held the position of chief of

15     security there?

16        A.   Right.  It was not on the 10th but the 1st of January, 1992.  I

17     arrived in Sarajevo on the 7th of January, 1992.

18        Q.   And the JNA corps that comprised the 2nd Military District all

19     became part of the VRS in May 1992; right?

20        A.   That is correct.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 32812.  This

22     includes about 20 per cent of the personnel file, and we've uploaded the

23     portions that we consider relevant.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Mr. Lukic, there are no other portions you would consider to be

Page 37130

 1     added?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have the document yet with me.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  We have disclosed the full version, and, as always,

 4     if there are additional parts that Mr. Lukic would want admitted in

 5     context, of course.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you always can revisit the matter, if need be.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit number P7458.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P7458 is admitted.

12             Please proceed.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, at page 12, line 8 -- I'm sorry.

14     Line 15.  I thought I heard you mention the month in 1992 when the 2nd

15     Military District became part of the VRS, but it's not recorded.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'd referred to the month of May, Your Honour.  And

17     thank you --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32720.

20        Q.   Now, this is a page out of Glas from the 22nd of March 1992 and

21     to the lower right-hand side of the page in black, we see an article

22     entitled "New Commandant."  And it says, it reports that you have taken

23     the position of chief of staff of the 5th Corps, it refers to the

24     Banja Luka Corps, and the duty of commandant of the Corps has been

25     assumed by the previous chief of staff, General Talic.  And it describes

Page 37131

 1     this at the beginning of the article as "in the spirit of the general

 2     transformation in the JNA."

 3             Now, from this point, you were chief of staff for the rest of the

 4     war, first of the 5th Corps and then of the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

 5        A.   At the time, if it is late March, it is correct then that I was

 6     chief of staff as of the 15th of March, 1992.

 7        Q.   And you remained chief of staff, first of the JNA 5th Corps and

 8     then of the VRS 1st Krajina Corps, throughout the remainder of the war;

 9     correct?

10        A.   The 5th Corps.

11        Q.   And then of the VRS 1st Krajina Corps.  And you held those

12     positions throughout the war; right?

13        A.   Correct.  As of the 12th of May, 1992 until the end of the war, I

14     remained the chief of staff of the 1st Corps in the VRS.

15        Q.   And General Talic remained your immediate superior from the 15th

16     of March when you were appointed chief of staff of the 5th Corps through

17     the end of the war, including your service in the VRS; right?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   And General Talic was a hands-on commander; right?

20        A.   Am I supposed to answer that?

21        Q.   You are.

22        A.   Yes.  Talic has exercised almost all command duties throughout

23     his career, and he was a very good hands-on commander.

24        Q.   And responsibility for what the corps does, all its actions,

25     always lies with the commander; right?

Page 37132

 1        A.   The commander is always responsible, irrespective of whether he

 2     is at the command post, in the movement, or stationary, if he's within

 3     the area of responsibility of his unit.  In his absence, the deputy

 4     commander stands in, the person being the chief of staff.

 5        Q.   If you stood in for General Talic, when he came back he wouldn't

 6     say:  General Kelecevic, don't tell me anything about what happened while

 7     I was gone.  That's not my problem.  That's not my responsibility; would

 8     he?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have technical

10     problems.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We have -- one second, please.  We have an audio

12     problem at this moment.

13             Mr. Registrar, could you say a few lines so that we see whether

14     the audio is now better or rather hear, hear whether it's any better.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Test 1, 2, 3.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  4, 5, 6 would follow, I think.  It seems that

17     it has been repaired or is functioning now well again.

18             Witness, did you hear the question well that was put to you by

19     Mr. Traldi; that is, what General Talic would not say if he --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be repeated?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Please, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   If you stood in for General Talic, when he came back he wouldn't

25     say:  General Kelecevic, don't tell me anything about what happened while

Page 37133

 1     I was gone.  That's not my problem.  That's not my responsibility; would

 2     he?

 3        A.   He would never say that.  And I would not allow myself to fail

 4     him to acquaint with the situation during his absence.

 5        Q.   And if he issued an order and then left the command post, he

 6     would expect you to continue to oversee the continued implementation of

 7     that order; right?

 8        A.   Right.  The commander's order must always be implemented.

 9        Q.   Now, the 5th Corps of the JNA was part of the 2nd Military

10     District; right?

11        A.   Yes, it was part of the 2nd Military District until the 12th of

12     May, 1992.

13        Q.   And when you arrived at the 5th Corps, General Kukanjac was

14     General Talic's immediate superior; right?

15        A.   Not his immediate superior because at the time General Vukovic

16     commanded the corps.  Chief of staff was General Talic.

17        Q.   Beginning just a couple of days after you arrived in Banja Luka

18     when General Talic formally assumed the duty of commander of the

19     5th Corps, General Kukanjac was his immediate superior; right?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   And beginning on the 10th of May, 1992 when General Mladic became

22     commander of the JNA 2nd Military District carrying through until 1996

23     when he handed over his command, he was General Talic's immediate

24     superior; right?

25        A.   We take it to be the 12th of May rather than the 10th of May,

Page 37134

 1     1992.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P7459.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P7459 is admitted.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   And, sir, we may or may not discuss the 10th and 11th of May

 8     later during your testimony, but I take it you agree that from the 12th

 9     of May through the rest of the war and continuing to 1996, General Mladic

10     was General Talic's immediate superior; right?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we have Exhibit P431, page 41 in the

13     English, 34 in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Sir, this will be the transcript of the 16th Session of the

15     Bosnian Serb Assembly, held on the 12th of May, 1992.  This session was

16     held in the JNA hall in Banja Luka; right?

17        A.   I was informed through the media.  I was not present at the

18     session.  I only know about it through the media.  I know that it was

19     held and I learned of its conclusions.

20        Q.   When you say you learned of its conclusions, what do you mean?

21        A.   Well, that on the 12th of May, the Republika Srpska was

22     established.  It was a decision by the assembly to establish

23     Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Now, Republika Srpska had been declared in January 1992, hadn't

25     it?

Page 37135

 1        A.   No, no, the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   And General Mladic was placed in command of it; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   One of the other things that was decided at this assembly was the

 5     strategic objectives of the Bosnian Serb people; right?

 6        A.   I suppose it was the case and that they were proclaimed

 7     concerning the defence of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   And you also learned about those; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How did you learn about them?

11        A.   First and foremost, I learned about it from the commander who

12     informed his ranks; and secondly, I learned about it through the media.

13        Q.   When you say the commander informed his ranks, do you mean

14     General Talic?

15        A.   Well, I can't say that it was Talic personally, but I can suppose

16     it was done by his assistant for political affairs who, at the time, I

17     think, was Colonel Vukelic.

18        Q.   Do you recall when and where he informed you of these objectives?

19        A.   I don't remember.  I can't recall.  No way.

20        Q.   Now, returning to --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask one follow-up question.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know where and when.  Do you know how you

24     were informed?  Was it in a written form or was it in a conversation or

25     in a meeting?  Do you have any recollection?

Page 37136

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that information was always

 2     sent to the units when it came to something that important.  So written

 3     information was sent to the units.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that your reconstruction or is it your

 5     recollection that it happened this way?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would rather say that I'm

 7     trying to reconstruct.  I can't say positively that things developed that

 8     way.  I'm just relying on what was usually done under such circumstances.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   And the objectives that you learned of, those included - most

12     importantly for the 1st Krajina Corps - separation from Muslims and

13     Croats and the establishment of a corridor connecting the Bosnian Krajina

14     with the eastern part of Republika Srpska through the Posavina region;

15     right?

16        A.   That was the task, but I wouldn't say that we had to establish a

17     corridor.  It was already in existence and it had not been cut off at the

18     time.  It will become cut off at a later stage.

19        Q.   When was it cut off?

20        A.   The corridor was cut off -- well, since I was in the area and I

21     had been tasked with deployment and assessment of the situation, I can

22     tell you that the corridor was cut off three times in late March, in

23     early June 1992.

24        Q.   Now, here we see a portion of General Mladic's speech at the

25     16th assembly, and in the middle of the page in English I'm simply going

Page 37137

 1     to read you what he says.  He's describing the army and he says:

 2             "We are not starting from scratch.  That is very important.  Our

 3     starting point are the armed Serbian people in the Republika Srpska of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina, who have, in the course of the war so far,

 5     responded, insofar as they did, to the call to put a stop, together with

 6     the members of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, to the fascist and phantom

 7     Ustasha dragon.  And so far, we have saved this people from being totally

 8     wiped out."

 9             Now, when General Mladic says "we are not starting from scratch,"

10     he's referring to the VRS; right?

11        A.   He is probably discussing - if this is May, because I did not

12     pick up the date, perhaps you can remind me.  But I don't know the date

13     of this intervention of his.

14        Q.   So the date is still the 12th of May, 1992 at the 16th assembly.

15     General Mladic is talking about the army and he says:

16             "We are not starting from scratch."   He says, "our starting

17     point are the armed Serbian people."   He mentions what they have already

18     been doing together with the members of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

19             So what I'm putting to you is that when General Mladic says "we

20     are not starting from a scratch," what he's saying is the VRS is not

21     starting from scratch.  It's starting from the armed Serbian people who

22     have been operating together with members of the JNA; right?

23        A.   Well, you see, if this was at the 16th Session and if Mr. Mladic

24     said that --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We need to stop for a

Page 37138

 1     moment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.

 3             For how long would you have to stop?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness should repeat the entirety of his

 5     answer because the sound was simply too poor.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you restart your answer.  You started by

 7     saying:  "Well, you see, if this was at the 16th Session and if

 8     Mr. Mladic said that ..."

 9             Could you resume from there what you said?  Because the sound was

10     poor.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Mladic said this

12     on the 12th at the 16th assembly session.  Until the 12th of May, the

13     2nd Military District was still in existence and operational, and of

14     course it is normal that he said that we were not starting from scratch.

15     If you take the 5th Corps alone, it basically continued its activities

16     and tasks it had previously had, even back in January 1992, when the

17     2nd Military District was established.

18             I think I'm sufficiently clear.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   And the weapons and personnel of the 5th Corps remained in Bosnia

21     and transformed into the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS; right?

22        A.   Do you think that the 5th Corps had not had its weapons before

23     that date?  It had the weapons in the 2nd Military District and the same

24     weapons remained.

25        Q.   General Kelecevic, before we move on from this document, what is

Page 37139

 1     a fascist and phantom Ustasha dragon?

 2        A.   I wouldn't be able to say because I don't ...

 3        Q.   Sir, I think your answer may have been cut off.  You said you

 4     don't and then I imagine you were going to explain what you don't do.

 5        A.   I wouldn't be able to say what the meaning is, this Ustasha

 6     dragon.  I never used such terms and I didn't want to hear about it.  On

 7     the other hand, I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to fascism.

 8        Q.   Why didn't you want to hear about such terms?

 9        A.   I think it wasn't part of our jargon, this fascist dragon.  As

10     for the term "dragon" itself, it would imply that it is extremely

11     dangerous.  I think fascism is a very dangerous thing for the human kind

12     in general.

13        Q.   It's inflammatory language, obviously; right?

14        A.   I don't know if it's inflammatory, but it definitely is not

15     something pleasant.

16        Q.   And I think Judge Moloto had a question for you, sir.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Actually for you, Mr. Traldi.

18             Mr. Traldi, you asked the witness if by referring to "we are not

19     starting afresh," General Mladic was referring to the VRS.  I just wanted

20     to find out whether the answer at page 21, lines 2 to 8, answers your

21     question and are you happy that your question has been answered?

22             MR. TRALDI:  I was satisfied with the answer, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sir, we have just a few minutes before the break.  In that time,

Page 37140

 1     I'm going to just try to nail down some of the key players in the

 2     1st Krajina Corps besides you and General Talic.

 3             At the beginning of the war, the assistant commander for security

 4     and intelligence was Colonel Stevilovic; right?

 5        A.   I did not understand.  Colonel who?

 6        Q.   Stevilovic; right?

 7        A.   Yes, Stevilovic.  I know him.  He was my subordinate organ in the

 8     5th Military District in the security organ in Maribor.

 9        Q.   And he was killed in July 1992 and replaced by Stevan Bogojevic;

10     right?

11        A.   He wasn't replaced by Stevan.  He was replaced by Stevo Bogojevic

12     who unfortunately passed away some two months ago.

13        Q.   Now, you mentioned that the political officer was

14     Milutin Vukelic.  Had he held that position in the 5th Corps previously?

15        A.   He did not hold the same position.

16        Q.   The 5th Corps --

17        A.   The -- excuse me?

18        Q.   The 5th Corps's political officer had been a

19     Colonel Mesud Hasotic; right?

20        A.   It was Colonel Hasotic, but I can't say precisely when he left

21     that position.  Colonel Milutin Vukelic came in his stead.

22        Q.   And Hasotic was a Muslim; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you be careful in pronouncing the names,

25     because if you are talking too fast it is not properly recorded.

Page 37141

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I will try, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   The assistant commander for logistics was Colonel Vaso Tepsic;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.  If it is a

 6     matter of one or two names, then please proceed.  Otherwise, we'll take

 7     the break now.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  It's more like three or four and so I'll suggest we

 9     take the break, if it's agreeable to Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is.

11             Mr. Kelecevic, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to

12     see you back at 10 minutes to 11.00, because we'll resume at ten

13     to 11.00.

14                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

17                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you're supposed not to speak aloud.

19     Last warning.

20             Could we check whether the videolink is still functioning well.

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  We can see and

22     hear you clearly.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We can see and hear you as well.

24             Let's proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Just to get back to the Chamber about the matter

Page 37142

 1     Mr. Lukic raised at the beginning of cross-examination.  He's quite

 2     correct, as often, that in this case General Kelecevic was interviewed

 3     pursuant to a summons but not as a suspect.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- yes.  So therefore a mistake on your

 5     side.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, when we'd left off, we'd confirmed that the 1st Krajina

10     Corps's assistant commander for logistics was General Tepsic.  Had he

11     held the same position in the 5th Corps of the JNA?

12        A.   Yes, he was also in the 5th Corps.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to focus on my question.  Had he

14     held --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is something wrong with the microphone.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to focus on my question.  Had he held

18     the same position - that is, assistant commander for logistics - in the

19     5th Corps of the JNA before the transformation?

20        A.   He was assistant commander for logistics in the 5th Corps all the

21     way until the moment when he was killed.

22        Q.   Well, from May 1992 until he was killed in 1993, he was the

23     assistant commander for logistics in the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS;

24     right?

25        A.   Right.  He wasn't killed exactly in the sense of assassinated.

Page 37143

 1     He got killed in a car accident.

 2        Q.   And he was replaced by Bosko Amidzic; right?

 3        A.   Right.  Colonel Amidzic, Bosko.

 4        Q.   And the 1st Krajina Corps's assistant commander for civilian

 5     affairs was Colonel Gojko Vujinovic; right?

 6        A.   No, Vujinovic.  Gojko Vujinovic, Colonel.

 7        Q.   Gojko Vujinovic was the 1st Krajina Corps's assistant commander

 8     for civilian affairs; right?

 9        A.   Right.

10        Q.   And what was Dragan Marcetic's position?

11        A.   Dragan Marcetic was assistant chief of staff for operations and

12     training in the corps.

13        Q.   And Zdravko Djuric's position?

14        A.   Not Ceric but Djuric, Zdravko.  Zdravko Djuric was assistant

15     chief of staff for intelligence.  The intelligence and security were

16     separate.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you check the spelling of the name

18     in page 25, line 23.  Dragan and then the family name.  Is that right?

19             MR. TRALDI:  No.  And thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   The assistant chief of staff for operations and training, that

21     was Dragan Marcetic; right?

22        A.   Correct.  Not assistant commander but assistant chief of staff.

23        Q.   And these two men whose positions you've described as assistant

24     chief of staff, Marcetic and Djuric, who was their immediate superior?

25        A.   Their immediate superior was the chief of staff; that is to say,

Page 37144

 1     myself.

 2        Q.   Now, we mentioned Colonel Vujinovic a moment ago.  One of his

 3     responsibilities was maintaining contact between the 1st Krajina Corps

 4     and the regional Crisis Staff; right?  The ARK Crisis Staff.

 5        A.   Not only the Crisis Staff but all the civilian affairs in the

 6     area of responsibility of this corps.

 7        Q.   So --

 8        A.   That was Gojko Vujinovic.

 9        Q.   So you're explaining, I take it, and correct me if I'm wrong,

10     that he was responsible for maintaining contact with the regional

11     Crisis Staff, the ARK Crisis Staff, but also with municipal civilian

12     authorities; is that right?

13        A.   Correct.  With the civilian authorities in the area of

14     responsibility of the corps.

15        Q.   And Colonel Bogojevic, the assistant commander for security and

16     intelligence, would always maintain contacts with the civilian police,

17     the MUP; right?

18        A.   Not Blagojevic.  Bogojevic, Stevo.  He was assistant for

19     security.  Not intelligence.  Intelligence was the domain of Djuric.

20     There were two separate jobs.  Security and intelligence were separate in

21     the corps command.

22        Q.   Let me try and ask the question again very specifically.

23     Colonel Bogojevic, who you've just described, would always maintain

24     contact with the civilian police, the MUP; right?

25        A.   The civilian police, and of course he was the superior of the

Page 37145

 1     military police, professionally speaking.

 2        Q.   So that's yes, he would always maintain contact with the civilian

 3     police; right?  I ask you to just give a "yes" or "no."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, there were also two units in Banja Luka that were under the

 6     direct control of the VRS Main Staff, the 14th Logistics Base and the

 7     89th Rocket Brigade; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Plus there was airforce and anti-aircraft defence of the

 9     VRS.

10        Q.   And the head of the airforce, General Ninkovic, he was based in

11     Banja Luka; right?

12        A.   Ninkovic is the correct last name.  Ninkovic and his command were

13     in Banja Luka in the garrison.

14        Q.   And there was an airforce squadron at a place called Mahovljani,

15     M-a-h-o-v-l-j-a-n-i; right?

16        A.   Yes.  That's part of the airforce.  The airfield was called

17     Mahovljani.

18        Q.   Its commander was Zoran Jokic; right?

19        A.   I know him only by name.  I've never seen him.

20        Q.   But you know he was the commander of that squadron; right?

21        A.   No.  If you mean the airforce, there is airforce and the

22     anti-aircraft defence; that is to say, the anti-aircraft rocket system.

23        Q.   Sir, I mean the Mahovljani squadron based at the place we've just

24     been discussing.  Zoran Jokic was the commander of that squadron; right?

25        A.   I didn't find Jokic there when I arrived.  He was part of the

Page 37146

 1     airforce and anti-aircraft defence.  He must have been there in March.

 2     Later, he was replaced by Colonel Bozo Novak who later became a general.

 3        Q.   Sir, you've provided a lot of information.  None of it responsive

 4     to my question.  The position he held in which he was replaced was

 5     commander of that airforce squadron at Mahovljani; right?

 6        A.   I didn't know that.  You didn't tell me the exact unit.

 7        Q.   And Jokic, like General Talic, was a member of the ARK

 8     Crisis Staff; right?

 9        A.   I know that Talic was on the list of the Crisis Staff.  About

10     Jokic, I don't know.

11        Q.   Now, how often in 1992 - how regularly - would General Talic hold

12     morning meetings of his assistant commanders?

13        A.   These meetings of the commander with the collegium were regular,

14     but not like in peacetime because the front line was very, very broad, so

15     only the inner core of the command would meet.  And the other organs of

16     the staff would come less frequently.

17        Q.   The inner core included the assistant commanders that we've

18     discussed this morning; right?

19        A.   That's right.  These assistant commanders, the chief of staff,

20     the assistant for logistics, for security, for civilian affairs, they

21     would meet almost every week once a week unless there was some

22     extraordinary situations.

23        Q.   And on days that there wasn't a meeting, General Talic would have

24     contact by phone with the assistant commanders; right?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 37147

 1        Q.   He would also, after speaking with them, have contact by phone

 2     with General Mladic; right?

 3        A.   Well, in these contacts he would report about the situation in

 4     the unit; although, there were always regular combat reports delivered at

 5     a certain time.

 6        Q.   And the way it worked, in fact, is the regular combat report

 7     would be sent from the corps to the Main Staff based on information

 8     provided by the corps's subordinate units, and then General Talic would

 9     speak with General Mladic so they could follow-up on any issues included

10     in the regular combat report; right?

11        A.   Well, essentially, yes.  But it doesn't mean that they talked

12     every day.  They talked if they had something to discuss, a problem to

13     solve, then they would get in touch.  If something has been covered in a

14     report and no additional explanation was needed, they didn't necessarily

15     talk about it.  It was not something that had to be done.

16        Q.   Now, we've reviewed a number of the duty log-books from the corps

17     during that period, and, sir, setting whether it happened every day

18     aside, General Talic very regularly spoke by phone with General Mladic

19     after the daily combat report was sent, didn't he?

20        A.   Not necessarily.  If something has been sent in encrypted form,

21     it's not discussed over communication means.  But certainly when they

22     met, they discussed certain things.

23        Q.   In fact, in General Talic's absence, you would speak by phone

24     with General Mladic about what was going on in the corps's area of

25     responsibility; right?

Page 37148

 1        A.   That's correct.  Unless it was sent in a written report and

 2     something needed to be reported or said, I would then do it if the

 3     commander was not at his place.

 4        Q.   And the Main Staff would issue orders and directives to the

 5     1st Krajina Corps; right?

 6        A.   Yes, right.

 7        Q.   General Talic together with you and the rest of the corps command

 8     staff would turn those into operational orders for the corps's

 9     subordinate units; right?

10        A.   If it was necessary for the subordinated units to be informed and

11     given orders, that was always done.

12        Q.   And General Mladic and other Main Staff officers would also visit

13     the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When General Mladic came to the 1st Krajina Corps's area of

16     responsibility, how would you be informed he was coming?

17        A.   Well, sometimes I was informed.  Sometimes I was not informed.

18     Sometimes he would come unannounced.

19        Q.   Would he bring a detail, a security detail, with him?

20        A.   Of course he had a security detail.  And he brought them not to

21     the commander -- not to the meetings with the commander but when he was

22     travelling in the field.

23        Q.   So if he were to visit units in the field, his detail would go

24     with him?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37149

 1        Q.   And you'd be aware of where he was going as long as he was in

 2     your area of responsibility; right?

 3        A.   Sometimes I would know in advance, but sometimes he wouldn't tell

 4     me.  He had the right to tour and to make inspections and visit places he

 5     considered he wanted to visit.

 6        Q.   Stepping back to March 1992 for a moment.  At the time you took

 7     over your position as chief of staff, a number of 5th Corps units were

 8     deployed in Croatia; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And shortly after you arrived in Banja Luka, many of those units

11     were redeployed back from Croatia to the Bosnian Krajina; right?

12        A.   This is not such an easy question to answer.  I can either give

13     you a broader answer or not say anything.  The units of the corps went

14     out there in August 1991 across the Sava River to the area of Slavonia

15     where Serbs were living, and they went there to protect the Serbian

16     people.  They stayed in Slavonia until 15 of June when that area was

17     taken over by UNPROFOR.

18        Q.   Now, in fact, the 122nd Brigade was deployed back to Kotor Varos

19     and Travnik in March of 1992; right?

20        A.   Well, I can't tell you exactly when.  It was 20 years ago.  It

21     was a period when I was still in Sarajevo.

22        Q.   And the 6th Brigade was deployed back to Sanski Most at the

23     beginning of April when you were in the 5th Corps; right?

24        A.   If you mean the calendar year, that's right.  But you have to

25     understand that this area of responsibility comprises 28 municipalities.

Page 37150

 1     It had a 260-kilometre long front line.  I could not cover physically all

 2     the units and all the sectors.  Whether it was exactly that number of the

 3     unit you mentioned, I can't be sure now.

 4        Q.   So we saw your assessment earlier.  An excellent chief of staff

 5     doesn't need to know where his subordinate brigades are, what republic

 6     they're in?

 7        A.   That's not what I'm trying to say.  It's true the chief of staff

 8     has to know the location of his units.  But --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you apparently ignored that the witness

10     said "I can't be sure now," whereas in your follow-up question you

11     suggested that he didn't know at the time.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   At the time, sir, you surely knew when the 6th Brigade was

15     redeployed from Croatia back to Sanski Most; right?

16        A.   Well, at that time I probably knew from the reports.  But I'm now

17     talking to you specifically about myself as the chief of staff.  On the

18     28th of April, I left the command post and went to a completely different

19     area from which I supervised a completely different situation and later

20     on that would evolve into the issue of the corridor.

21        Q.   Now, you give some evidence about operations in Prijedor in May

22     1992 in your statement.  Is it your position that you don't have any

23     personal knowledge about those operations because you were in a

24     completely different area?

25        A.   I'm not saying I don't know anything.  I said I did not

Page 37151

 1     personally control these operations.  I was not there.  Specifically,

 2     that 43rd Motorised Unit from Prijedor was still across the river Sava

 3     over there in Croatia in Western Slavonia.

 4        Q.   In fact, by late May 1992, the 43rd Brigade was in Prijedor, just

 5     like the 6th Brigade was in Sanski Most; right?

 6        A.   No, you can't say that about the whole of the brigade.  Perhaps

 7     one part of it was.  But the command, let's say the 43rd, I know about

 8     them for sure, the command of the 43rd Brigade was still in Slavonia in

 9     Croatia.

10             As far as the 6th Brigade is concerned, I cannot say with

11     certainty whether it had returned already to Sanski Most.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, earlier you said when asked about the

13     6th Brigade returning to Sanski Most, as part of your answer you said:

14             "On the 28th of April, I left the command post and went to a

15     completely different area from which I supervised a completely different

16     situation."

17             But the question about the return of the 6th Brigade to

18     Sanski Most was not about something that happened after the 28th of April

19     but, as Mr. Traldi put it to you, was early April.  So I have

20     difficulties in understanding why your departure on the 28th of April may

21     have any impact on your knowledge in early April.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's 13 days after I came to

23     become the chief of staff.  For 13 days - that is to say, from the 17th

24     of March until the beginning of April - that's 13 days.  That's how much

25     time I spent in the area.  Was I able to take stock of all of that at

Page 37152

 1     once?  I don't think so.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That may be an explanation but it's a

 3     different one from the previous one.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And, sir, we'll talk about several of these units in detail

 7     later.  The reason 5th Corps units were deployed back to Bosnia, they

 8     were deployed back to take control of the territory and the situation in

 9     the Bosnian Krajina; right?

10        A.   What is your question, precisely?

11        Q.   5th Corps units were deployed back to Bosnia to take control of

12     the territory and the situation in the Bosnian Krajina; right?

13        A.   I said that the units of both the 1st and the 5th Corps, because

14     it was a period of overlap and there was the issue of whether they were

15     in the military district or in the VRS in the month of May.  In any case,

16     the corps units remain in Slavonia - i.e., in Croatia - until the 15th of

17     June, 1992.  That part.  Not all of the units but some units of the

18     corps.

19        Q.   Well, let's first have 65 ter 32715, page 36.  And, sir, this

20     will be part of your OTP interview which you testified earlier had been

21     truthful.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'm sorry.  I've got the wrong page number, so I'll

23     move on to the next question.

24        Q.   By the time these units were redeployed, and I'll continue

25     suggesting that it was long before the 15th of June for most of them,

Page 37153

 1     these were battle-tested units with experience at the front in Croatia;

 2     right?

 3        A.   It was the case with some units but not with others.  I don't

 4     know what particular unit you are interested and whether it was part of

 5     the 1st or the 5th Corps.

 6        Q.   Well, all the brigades we just mentioned - the 122nd, the 6th,

 7     the 343rd - those were battle-tested units with experience at the front

 8     in Croatia; right?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  The units that had been in the territory of Slavonia

10     had been battle-tested.

11        Q.   And that included the three units I just referred to; right?

12        A.   Yes, the 6th and the 43rd.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have 65 ter 32715, page 33.

14        Q.   This, again, is your OTP interview.  The bottom of the page

15     you're asked about the 122nd Brigade withdrawing from Croatia to Bosnia

16     in March, and you answer, you explain there was a danger of escalation

17     occurring.  You're asked:

18             "Which is why units were withdrawn into these areas to actually

19     take control of the territory and the situation?"

20             And you answer:

21             "Of course it was the reason.  I mean, all the men fit for

22     service, because Croats and Muslims would not go into, into their units,

23     so all the men fit for service in that, in that entire area were in

24     Slavonia, so there was absolutely no one to defend this, this

25     population."

Page 37154

 1             And then you're asked:

 2             "And the Muslims and Croats in this entire area were seen as the

 3     threat that needed to be controlled by the deployment of these forces

 4     into this area, weren't they?"

 5             And you answer:

 6             "Of course.  It wasn't the Hungarians or the, the Romanians or

 7     the Bulgarians that were, that were the problem.  It was, it was them."

 8             Do you stand by the portions of your OTP interview that I've just

 9     read back to you?

10        A.   Well, as I said, I can't recall whether I put it in those very

11     words but I stand by the fact that the units, which had been in Croatia,

12     in Slavonia, that sizable chunks of those units returned to the area to

13     protect and to separate the forces there and calm the situation down in

14     Prijedor and Kotor Varos.

15        Q.   To take control of the situation and to take control of the

16     threat posed by the Muslims and Croats.  Those are the propositions you

17     confirmed in your interview.  Do you stand by that today, "yes" or "no"?

18        A.   I stand by it today because in a certain period on certain days

19     the Muslim and Croat forces carried out certain attacks on military

20     facilities, units, and columns along those axes.

21        Q.   Now, those 5th Corps units that were deployed back to the Bosnian

22     Krajina, they were supplemented by mobilised Serbs; right?

23        A.   Certainly.  They were also being manned with Muslim and Croat

24     conscripts who were assigned to the units.  Those who had given their

25     oath and agreed to fighting with the unit were recruited.  Those who

Page 37155

 1     refused were considered deserters because they did not want to be

 2     included in the units.

 3        Q.   Did that oath involve protecting the Serb people, the Serb

 4     authorities that had been established?

 5        A.   Well, it certainly included the institutions, the people, and the

 6     Serb institutions that existed at the time but also the Muslims and

 7     Croats who resided in the area.

 8        Q.   Well, I'm going to look at the mechanics of that now.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P3032.

10        Q.   Now, this is an order issued by General Mladic on the 11th of

11     May, 1992 from the 2nd Military District command.  We see its headline

12     that it's regarding the mobilisation of RJ.  That's "war units"; right?

13        A.   It isn't quite logical to me.  It is the 11th of May.  It is

14     still the 5th Military District, so why is General Mladic drafting the

15     order?  I can see it here now.  I believe he was an experienced officer

16     and commander.  As of the moment when he took up his duties, that is when

17     he started writing orders, but the date on this one is the 11th of May,

18     1992.

19        Q.   It is.  And it comes from the 2nd Military District command;

20     doesn't it?

21        A.   Well, yes, the 2nd Military District.  But why would then Mladic

22     be the one drafting it?  It was still Lieutenant-General Kukanjac at the

23     time.

24        Q.   The Chamber has received the hand-over certificate and elements

25     of General Mladic's personnel file.  Is it really your evidence that

Page 37156

 1     you're not aware that General Mladic had been appointed to the

 2     2nd Military District by the 11th of May?  [No interpretation].

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly repeat his answer.  We

 4     had sound problems again.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, you've been asked to repeat your answer.

 7        A.   I said that it is the issue of that one day.  I don't know

 8     whether it was on the 11th.  I know that as of the 12th the VRS came into

 9     being.

10        Q.   Well, looking again at the title, I asked you, and I don't think

11     I got an answer, whether the reference to "RJ" refers to "war units."

12     That's what that acronym is used for, right?

13        A.   Yes, war units.  That's what the RJ stands for.  So order to

14     mobilise war units.

15        Q.   And we see in point 1 a description of what's going to be

16     included in the new units, and it starts with "armed Serbian people";

17     right?

18        A.   Am I supposed to -- I don't understand the question.  What is it

19     that you're asking me, the establishment of war units?  The units of the

20     5th Corps had already been established.

21        Q.   What General Mladic is ordering is that war units be established

22     and that armed Serbian people be included; right?  Yes or no.

23        A.   Yes.  But I can't explain it just like that.  I can't accept it

24     like that.

25        Q.   In fact, the 5th Corps not only accepted but implemented this

Page 37157

 1     order; right?

 2        A.   The order was implemented because the war units had already been

 3     established.  They had their conscripts.  Each conscript was assigned to

 4     a particular unit.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm going to direct your attention for the moment to the

 6     strictly confidential number 12/81-433 in the top left-hand corner.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm going to ask for 65 ter 32167.

 8        Q.   Now, this is an order from the 5th Corps command the next day,

 9     the 12th of May, 1992.  We see at the beginning that it's issued pursuant

10     to the order of the 2nd Military District, strictly confidential number

11     12/81-433 of 11 May 1992.  That's the order we just looked at; right?

12        A.   Well, yes.  This order was to carry out mobilisation, to arm Serb

13     people, and to arm the volunteers who arrive and report, having

14     previously carried out background checks for them, and to assign them to

15     their respective units.  Once in the units, they were duty-bound to

16     follow the regulations of the unit in terms of discipline, order,

17     security and safety, so on and so forth.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P7460, under seal.

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7460 is admitted under seal.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   I --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I repeated what Mr. Registrar said, I think, but you

Page 37158

 1     didn't ask it be -- have it admitted under seal.

 2             Mr. Registrar, is there any reason?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  The only reason was that the OTP mentioned it was

 4     strictly confidential document.  I'm sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the document was strictly confidential, as far

 6     as the content is concerned, at the time when it was issued.  I should

 7     have asked rather than to repeat what you said, Mr. Registrar.

 8             Therefore, P7460 is admitted but as a public exhibit.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have that back on the screen,

10     please.

11        Q.   We see that has strictly confidential number 434-4.

12             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have P7122.

13        Q.   Now, this is an order issued by the 343rd Brigade command on the

14     17th of May to the Serbian Territorial Defence Staff in Prijedor, and we

15     see at the beginning that it's issued pursuant to order strictly

16     confidential number 434-4 of the 12th of May, 1992 issued by the

17     5th Corps commander.

18             So this is an example of the functioning of the chain of command

19     in the JNA before the transformation:  The 2nd Military District issuing

20     an order, the 5th Corps passing it down to its subordinate brigades, and

21     in this case the 343rd Brigade passing it down to the Serbian TO staff;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.  It was forwarded by the staff or the command of the

24     343rd Brigade to the TO staff.  Because, by that time, the TO units had

25     been subordinated to the JNA; in this specific case, to the 5th Corps in

Page 37159

 1     Prijedor.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P7325, please.

 3        Q.   Now, this is a document from General Gvero on the 19th of May.

 4     We see it now bears the heading the Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian

 5     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  General Gvero describes the

 6     political situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And turning to page 2 in

 7     both languages, the second paragraph, under point II, he writes:

 8             "The state-building Serbian people living on around 65 per cent

 9     of the territory and representing around 35 per cent of the population of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina must fight for a total partition from the Muslim

11     and Croatian people and must create their own state."

12             Now, he's describing here the purpose of the war to the various

13     corps commands, right, among other units?

14        A.   Am I supposed to answer this in some way?

15        Q.   Yes.  General Gvero is describing there the purpose of the war;

16     right?

17        A.   Well, here General Gvero, as the assistant commander for

18     political affairs, is not ordering but explaining the situation as it is

19     and as it should be.  Now, whether the commanders were going to implement

20     it in that sense was up to them, but he wasn't ordering anything here.

21     He's providing information to the units of the VRS.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to focus on my question.  The

23     information he's providing is about the purpose of the war as the

24     Main Staff understood it; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37160

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P2874.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a document dated the 21st of May, 1992 from

 3     Colonel Vukelic, and we see the header now says "1st Krajina Corps

 4     Command."  And if we turn to the top of page 2 in English and the bottom

 5     of page 1 in the B/C/S, we see he's written:

 6             "The constituent Serbian people, who live on around 65 per cent

 7     of the area and represent more than 35 per cent of the population of BH,

 8     must struggle for complete separation from the Muslim and Croatian

 9     peoples and form their own state."

10             So Colonel Vukelic has clearly received General Gvero's message

11     about the purpose of the war; right?

12        A.   Yes, one can interpret it in this way.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have the end of the document in both

14     languages, please.

15        Q.   And we see that Colonel Vukelic at the end has written:

16             "Inform all members of the Army of the Serbian Republic of BH

17     about the contents of this report in the most suitable way."

18             So this is an example of information about the purpose of the war

19     being disseminated down from the Main Staff through the corps to the

20     units; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what we see is the same chain of command that we saw in the

23     previous documents from the 2nd Military District to the 5th Corps to the

24     343rd Brigade functioning this time from the Main Staff of the VRS to the

25     1st Krajina Corps to its subordinate units; right?

Page 37161

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I see it's a minute or two early, but

 3     I'm about to turn to a new topic and I wonder if we might take the break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's better then to take the break with now.

 5             Mr. Kelecevic, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We

 6     take a break.  Therefore, we resume at 10 minutes past midday.

 7                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear us, can you see us, at the other end of

12     the videolink?

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Testing 1, 2, 3.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we can hear you.  We can see you.  Can you hear

15     us?  Can you see us?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can both hear and see you.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And can the representative of the Registry also hear

19     and see us?  Because it's nice to know that the witness can see and hear

20     us.

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'm not hearing anything.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the representative of the Registry now hear and

23     see us?  Apparently the witness can.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we need, perhaps, technical assistance

Page 37162

 1     because from The Hague to the far end of the videolink, there is a

 2     two-channel connection - B/C/S and English - whereas, from what I

 3     understand there is live stream coming to The Hague.  But apparently the

 4     B/C/S channel is working, the other one is not.  But let me just check

 5     that again.

 6             Can the representative of the Registry still not hear us on the

 7     English channel?  Apparently not.

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are trying to

 9     establish connection here with the telephone line.  We seem to have lost

10     the telephone connection momentarily.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So that means that you can't hear us, you can't see

12     us?  No response, which seems to confirm that he cannot.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there is a fair expectation that the line will

15     be restored within the next minute, we'll wait in the courtroom.

16             THE REGISTRAR: {Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  We can report

17     now that we're clear.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's true for the B/C/S line as well?

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, that's correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can proceed.

21             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Can we have 65 ter 07733.

24        Q.   Now, after the transformation of the 5th Corps into the

25     1st Krajina Corps, you're aware what was left of the JNA was renamed into

Page 37163

 1     the VJ; right?  As we see here.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Mr. Traldi, we don't have the

 3     document here.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 5        Q.   And the VJ continued to provide support to its former officers in

 6     the VRS; right?

 7        A.   I don't know.  How do you mean, in terms of staffing or finance?

 8        Q.   Well, let me put it this way:  You and the other officers in the

 9     1st Krajina Corps command, you continued to hold VJ posts in parallel

10     with your VRS posts and you were paid from Belgrade; right?

11        A.   That's right.  I was registered as working in Belgrade, although

12     I was born in Banja Luka.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the document apparently was not available

15     to the other side.  So that's at least one of the comments.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] It now is, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It now is?

18             MR. TRALDI:  And I think that point one is straight-forward.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I just wanted to --

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, of course, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was, of course, "as we can see," and

22     then the answer was that they couldn't see it.

23             Now having looked at the document, Witness, does that change in

24     any way the answer you gave earlier?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  From what I can see, no.  I

Page 37164

 1     was still a staff member of Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you were on your feet --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a second ago.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think the question was dealing with the 5th Corps,

 6     and the 5th Corps was renamed.  But here in this document, we see that

 7     JNA was renamed into VJ.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just have a look.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I think Mr. Lukic may be very politely suggesting

10     that I was misrecorded on the transcript to have asked whether the

11     5th Corps was renamed into the VJ when I had asked whether the JNA was

12     renamed into the VJ.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think so.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think, Mr. Lukic, apart from that, and

15     also the witness in his answer I think sufficiently explained what the

16     situation was.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not at all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  P7461.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

21             Witness, you said a second ago: "No, not at all."  What did you

22     mean to say by that?  That it wasn't the 5th Corps that was renamed or

23     that it was not the JNA that was renamed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 5th Corps was just renamed into

25     2nd Corps and remained the 2nd Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 37165

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And the JNA was renamed Yugoslav Army?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA would later be renamed.  It

 3     wasn't renamed at that time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you refer to now?  What do you refer to as

 5     "that time"?  This document dates the 19th of May.  Was it not renamed by

 6     the 20th of May, as we read in the document?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on the 20th.  Yes, it was

 8     eventually renamed.  The 1st Corps was renamed on the 19th of May.  That

 9     means that --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking exclusively about the renaming of the

11     JNA into the Yugoslav Army.  Did that happen on the 20th of May or not?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not as far as I know.  This

13     renaming of the JNA into the Army of Yugoslavia did not affect the VRS.

14     I don't know exactly when the JNA was renamed the Army of Yugoslavia.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any reason to doubt that it was, as this

16     document tells us, on the 20th of May, 1992?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any doubts.  It was

18     exactly on the 12th of May that it was the Army of Republika Srpska, and

19     after the 19th of May, the 5th Corps was renamed 1st Corps of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  I'm sure about these dates.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute between the parties about --

22             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No dispute there.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I mean on this issue.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I see that point.

Page 37166

 1             That also, Mr. Traldi, means that there was no reason, as a

 2     matter of fact, to introduce it with the witness.

 3             But P7461 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we go into private session, please, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 37167











11  Pages 37167-37168 redacted.  Private session.















Page 37169

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 02775.

23        Q.   Now, going back to May 1992, this document's dated the 5th of

24     May.  We see it's signed by Colonel Tepsic, the assistant commander for

25     logistics then still in the 5th Corps.  We see that pursuant to a verbal

Page 37170

 1     order issued by the commander of the 5th Corps at a briefing on 4 May

 2     1992, he's ordering that a particular military post in Banja Luka prepare

 3     and deliver arms to the Bosanska Gradiska and Kotor Varos municipal

 4     Territorial Defence staffs.

 5             Now, this is an example of the 5th Corps arming those

 6     subordinated Territorial Defence units that we talked about earlier;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender that document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P7463.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7463 is admitted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have 65 ter 18343.

14        Q.   This is an article from Glas.  We see the date is 30 April and

15     1 and 2 May 1992, a couple of days earlier.  We see an interview with

16     General Talic entitled:  "The Army Stays Here."  And we see that he says

17     in a full quote at the bottom of page 1 in English and on the right side

18     of the article that we've centred on in B/C/S:

19             "'Write this down and underline it:  Not a single bolt from a

20     single tank of the Banja Luka Corps will leave this territory, let alone

21     anything larger.  To tell the truth, it should also be said that I do not

22     have command over all the army assets on the territory covered by the

23     Banja Luka Corps, and that some may be shifted, but what is under my

24     command stays in the Bosnian Krajina, in conformity, of course, with any

25     political solutions that may be adopted.'"

Page 37171

 1             At this point, "army assets" means JNA assets; right?

 2        A.   Well, it means JNA personnel.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the end of the interview in both

 4     languages.

 5        Q.   We see in the next-to-last paragraph that General Talic

 6     specifically refers to the Petar Drapsin School Centre and the Kosmos

 7     enterprise that may leave Banja Luka.

 8             I have two questions for you about this.  First:  What made those

 9     JNA assets?

10        A.   If you mean the armed forces or do you mean only the JNA?

11        Q.   Sir, I mean the Petar Drapsin School Centre and the Kosmos

12     enterprise, which I just asked about, what made those -- or in what way

13     were those JNA assets?

14        A.   The JNA had training centres across the republics of the former

15     Yugoslavia.  One of them, the training centre Petar Drapsin, was a centre

16     for the training of armoured and anti-armoured units for whole of

17     Yugoslavia, whereas Kosmos was a repair and maintenance institute that

18     took care of repairs of JNA equipment.

19        Q.   Did those assets remain in Banja Luka?

20        A.   Well, the buildings remained, the office space remained, and of

21     course Army of Republika Srpska personnel came and were trained in these

22     centres.  That centre remained operative throughout the war and after the

23     war.  Kosmos still exists.

24        Q.   And still exists.  And during the war, Kosmos remained in

25     Banja Luka under the control of the 1 KK; right?

Page 37172

 1        A.   It was not controlled by the 1st Krajina Corps.  It was more

 2     under the control of the Main Staff.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 3 in both languages.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one follow-up question.

 5             Witness, you were asked whether "army's assets" meant JNA assets,

 6     and you said:  Well, it means JNA personnel.

 7             Now from we see in this interview, a reference to bolts, to

 8     facilities, I have some difficulties to understand that these assets

 9     would only mean personnel rather than also including equipment and other

10     facilities.  Could you explain why you nevertheless say it means

11     personnel, or did you not intend to exclude other equipment and

12     facilities?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not intend to exclude it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The equipment, cabinets, et cetera,

16     they were all part of a modern educational institution.  They were all

17     used to train members of the VRS.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But also weaponry?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The amount of weapon assigned to it

20     was the amount necessary to carry out training.  All of the cabinets

21     contained documentation and designs of tanks and equipment as well as the

22     rest.  It was a modern training centre for members of the armed and

23     mechanised units.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but apparently the document is not only about

25     training facility.  It is in -- talking very general terms on "what is

Page 37173

 1     under my command stays here" or "bolts of a tank, let alone greater,"

 2     which is not directly linked, at least in the language of the interview,

 3     to just and exclusively the training facility.  It's in general wordings.

 4             Could you explain to me why you consider that it only applies to

 5     those training facilities and not to weaponry and equipment in a more

 6     general sense?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked me only about

 8     the centre Petar Drapsin and Kosmos and that is how I answered.  However,

 9     as for all the other units that were part of the JNA, they remained in

10     their respective locations with their weapons and their equipment.  No

11     redeployment of such units occurred after the 20th of May.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  May I correct you when you said "it means

13     personnel," that was before the Prosecutor put a question to you

14     specifically about the Petar Drapsin school.  But matters are clear by

15     now.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 3 in both languages under the

18     heading:  "The Strength of the Banja Luka Corps," and in the B/C/S it's

19     the middle column, second paragraph.

20        Q.   Now, General Talic is asked what his estimate is of the critical

21     points in the corps' zone where the corps itself could be vulnerable, and

22     he responds:

23             "The Banja Luka Corps has such a large force and such an

24     organisation that there is no risk of the Corps or the people of Krajina

25     being endangered."

Page 37174

 1             Now, this is a reflection of the strength and power of the corps

 2     that would shortly afterwards be transformed into the 1 KK; right?

 3        A.   That is correct.  I think the commander's assessment was correct

 4     as well.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 18343.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit number P7464.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P7464 is admitted.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32725.

11        Q.   Now, this is a report from SRNA, published the 28th of May, 2012,

12     regarding a speech by you at a commemoration ceremony for General Talic

13     in an area near Banja Luka.  It refers to you saying in the second

14     paragraph that General Talic commanded an army whose manpower at that

15     time was 127.000 strong with which he held 68 per cent of the territory

16     of Srpska and a 1.260 kilometre long combat front line.  You are

17     describing the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

18        A.   All of this is accurate.  127.000 was the figure per

19     establishment at certain points in time.  It doesn't mean that all

20     127.000 were constantly at the front lines.

21             Let me just tell you one thing:  One-third of the number was

22     always on leave and the in garrisons.  The other two-thirds were at the

23     front lines.

24             Secondly, I did not understand the second part of your question.

25        Q.   I think you've answered my question.

Page 37175

 1        A.   The length of the front line?  If it comes to that, I've already

 2     said that the front was 1.260 kilometres long.  When I said that he

 3     commanded the army, he wasn't in that position as per establishment.  I

 4     was simply comparing the number of fighters, soldiers, and the number of

 5     units.

 6        Q.   And --

 7        A.   And it amounts to the size of an army rather than a corps per

 8     establishment, but it was named "corps" throughout nevertheless.

 9        Q.   And it was the largest corps in the VRS in terms of manpower and

10     in terms area of responsibility; right?

11        A.   Yes.  I think if experts or military men would look into it, they

12     would probably conclude it may have been the largest corps in Europe

13     because a corps, per establishment, usually ranges between 20- and 30.000

14     fighters.

15        Q.   Now, we see lower down in this article that you say that

16     General Talic was a hero --

17        A.   Or it could be lower.

18        Q.   Sir, we see lower down in this article, and it's the fifth

19     paragraph, that you say General Talic was a hero.  You say he had not

20     been sentenced and his guilt was not proven.  Now, while his trial was

21     not completed, he was on trial for genocide, persecution, extermination,

22     torture, deportation, wanton destruction, and other crimes; right?

23        A.   He was tried but the trial was not concluded.  He was never

24     convicted, and I do not see him as a war criminal or someone who would

25     have committed the crimes you listed here.

Page 37176

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, it often came to my mind this morning

 2     whether there is any dispute about -- was there any dispute about

 3     Mr. Talic being on trial and what the charges were, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  No dispute at all, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Traldi would you keep in mind that we are

 6     mainly interested to hear evidence on matters which are in dispute.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll tender the document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit number P7465.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Now I'm going to turn, sir, to the corridor operation.

15             You say in paragraph 11 of your statement that in June 1992 you

16     were engaged in the planning of the corridor operation.  You said this

17     morning that you were in the corridor from the 28th of April onwards.

18     Now, first, can you just clarify for us when you arrived in the area

19     known as the Posavina corridor?

20        A.   By virtue of an order by the corps commander, General Talic, I

21     was assigned, together with another ten officers from my staff, all of

22     them being colonels and lieutenant colonels, to the task.  Since the

23     situation was particularly grave in the area of Posavina, it didn't

24     involve just a small corridor but the area included a number of locations

25     that I can enumerate, if need be.  In any case, the area stretches from

Page 37177

 1     the heart of Derventa via Brcko to Bijeljina.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you there.

 3        A.   That area --

 4        Q.   I hadn't asked for the geography of the Posavina corridor.  All

 5     I'd asked at the moment was:  Can you clarify for us when, and I'm

 6     looking for a date or a rough time, you arrived in the Posavina corridor.

 7        A.   There is no approximate.  I'll tell you precisely.  I arrived on

 8     the 28th of April, 1992, with a group of officers in the general area of

 9     Prnjavor and Derventa municipalities.

10        Q.   Now on the 28th of April, you were still concerned, certainly,

11     with VRS units in other parts of the area of responsibility and you were,

12     in fact, issuing orders to the 6th and 343rd Brigade; right?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  General Kelecevic was head of staff and he could not

15     issue orders, as I understand.  So even -- I think that should be

16     clarified with him first, where is the base for the claim that he issued

17     orders.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You can object to the question but not hint at what

19     should be asked and why --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's inappropriate.

22             MR. LUKIC:  General Kelecevic knows better than me.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you give evidence by saying he could not

24     give orders.  I mean, that's for -- first of all, you can deal with the

25     matter in re-examination, if need be.  But, second, it is guidance to the

Page 37178

 1     witness on what he could and what he could not, which is inappropriate to

 2     present in the presence of the witness.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you please, perhaps in order to

 5     assist the witness, to put the question to him again.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I'll rephrase.  And while I do, I'll call up the

 7     document I had in mind:  65 ter 08952.

 8        Q.   As of the 28th of April, you were still concerned with events and

 9     units in the other parts of the corps' area of responsibility, and you

10     were communicating with units in those areas, including the 6th and 343rd

11     Brigades; right?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the number of the

13     document.

14             MR. TRALDI:  08952.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the area of the 6th and

18     343rd Brigade, it is an area distinct from the area of the corridor.  I

19     could not have been physically present in both areas.  I was focusing on

20     the area of Posavina.  I did not have a fully deployed command post so as

21     to be able to receive reports there to the command post of the operations

22     group at the corridor, where I was.  I could not issue orders to the 6th

23     or any other unit.  I think orders can be issued in writing or orally in

24     the spirit of a decision made by the commander that the chief of staff,

25     of course, needs to be privy to.

Page 37179

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, this document is labelled a request.  It's sent to the

 3     10th Partizan Division command and the Prijedor area command.  The

 4     Prijedor area command was the same as the command of the 343rd later the

 5     43rd Brigade; right?

 6        A.   Not the command in Prijedor but there was the Prijedor garrison

 7     command and it was the 343rd.  The garrison command was also the command

 8     of the 343rd Brigade.  If the commander is absent, and at that time the

 9     commander was in the territory of Croatia, in western Slavonia, then his

10     deputy was there or someone else he assigned to perform that duty.

11        Q.   And the Prijedor area command, that's also headed by

12     Colonel Arsic, the commander of the 343rd Brigade; right?

13        A.   That is accurate.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you slightly confused me when you said

15     that you would rephrase the question.

16             You changed it considerably.  First, I think, you were talking

17     about on the 28th of April and you referred for that date that the

18     witness was still concerned with VRS units, which comes as a surprise.

19     That's at least how it's transcribed; page 59.  And later, rephrasing

20     your question, you did not refer to VRS but rather to other parts of the

21     corps' area of responsibility, and another matter which was different is

22     that you then said "as of the 28th of April."

23             So, therefore, it's a bit of a different question.  And may I

24     take it that the reference to the VRS units focusing on the 28th of April

25     was either a mistake by whomever, either in transcription, or in what you

Page 37180

 1     said?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll move on.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   What we see here is you requesting information from the Prijedor

 6     area command and from the 10th Partizan Division command about

 7     information on the disposition of 6th Brigade units and Prijedor units,

 8     so at that point, the 28th of April, clearly you're still concerned with

 9     what's happening in Prijedor and in Sanski Most; right?

10        A.   Perhaps the issue on hand is whether it was the 28th.  I can't

11     tell you precisely whether I left on the 28th or the 29th, when I left

12     the corps command.  Most likely this had been written before and sent out

13     perhaps a day later or so.  I can't say whether I wrote it on the 28th or

14     the 26th or perhaps the 27th.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender the document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit number P7466.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P7466 is admitted.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Now, you suggested in the context of that document that

22     General Talic had been in Croatia on the 28th of April.  On the 30th of

23     April, he was back in Banja Luka and met with General Mladic and

24     General Blagoje Adzic; right?

25        A.   I can't confirm that because I don't remember.  I did not keep

Page 37181

 1     notes on where the commander was.  It was only important for me that he

 2     get in touch so that I can inform him about the situation.  Now whether

 3     on that day he was in Croatia or in another area or something, I don't

 4     know.  I can't confirm where he was in the course of those few days.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32741.

 6        Q.   In the middle of the page on the left in the English, and the

 7     only translated article in the B/C/S, we read that 30 April, Tanjug, is

 8     publishing that General Adzic arrived in Banja Luka, that the commanders

 9     of the Knin and Banja Luka Corps, General Mladic and General Ninkovic,

10     are also present in Banja Luka, the centre of the Bosnian Krajina, and

11     that it's believed that General Adzic will meet with Mladic, Ninkovic,

12     and General Talic to discuss the status of these corps after the

13     proclamation of the FRY and that he's also expected to meet with

14     high-ranking representatives of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.

15             Now, what I'm suggesting is, of course, if the defence minister

16     arrived in your area of responsibility, it was published in the paper,

17     you obviously knew about it.  You knew he was there, you know he was

18     meeting with your superior, General Talic, and with General Mladic;

19     right?

20        A.   Well, personally there is nothing I can say about this meeting.

21     I wasn't in attendance.  I don't know what they discussed.  The commander

22     did not tell me.  It was on the 30th of April.  In all likelihood, I was

23     already at the new location of my command post dealing with the corridor.

24        Q.   And it says they were going to discuss the status of these corps

25     after the proclamation of the FRY.  That's a pretty fundamental issue for

Page 37182

 1     every soldier's benefits, every soldier's status.  That's something you

 2     must have heard about; right?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Asked and answered.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  First, it's a different question.

 8             Second, as I believe Your Honours mentioned earlier, asked and

 9     answered doesn't apply the same way on cross as on direct.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Still, it's the same issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the same issue.  It's not the same question.

12     Objection overruled.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, do you recall the question?

16        A.   I recall the question.  It was about whether the status of the

17     corps was somewhat changed after the 20th of May, if that was the gist of

18     your question.

19        Q.   My question was, and I'll ask it again:  The defence minister

20     coming out, discussing the status of the corps after the proclamation of

21     the FRY, that's a fundamental enough issue that you and everyone else, in

22     the corps command, certainly, must have heard about it; right?

23             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, I would object again.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One moment, one second.

25             Mr. Lukic.

Page 37183

 1             MR. LUKIC:  The question is based on this document and it's

 2     phrased as it is a certain thing.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's the same question.  I think I

 4     overruled your earlier objection.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  But my objection is now different.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you should have done that.  Mr. Traldi is

 7     now just repeating the question.  We ruled upon it.  And if you would

 8     have other objections, then you would have had to raise them right away

 9     as well, not --

10             LUKIC:  Well, I can object again, Your Honour.  That's my

11     understanding.  Why not?  The question was repeated, I want to raise

12     another objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You think that you can raise an objection to a

14     question just many, many times?  Let me --

15             MR. LUKIC:  If we please just read the last paragraph, how viable

16     that information is.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, if I might cut this short.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  The Chamber has also received General Mladic's notes

20     of this meeting.  We're not obligated to show every document on a topic

21     to every witness, but General Mladic's notes of the meeting with Adzic

22     which reflect the status of the army being one of the topics are in

23     evidence.  I'm showing this in part because it also clearly reflects the

24     location, but we're not required to show every relevant document on every

25     topic.

Page 37184

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, one second, please, so that I can ...

 2             No speaking aloud by Mr. Mladic.

 3             The witness may answer the question.

 4             Perhaps you repeat it again.

 5             And, Mr. Lukic, at this moment I stay out from how often you can

 6     object to questions, whether if one objection is overruled whether you

 7     can then come up with a new one.

 8             Mr. Mladic is standing.  He apparently wants to consult with

 9     counsel.  Of course, he can do but not at audible volume.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would just ask you then to control

11     that the question based on this document is not misstating of the

12     evidence, because this document --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- is presented to the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Whether it misstates the evidence, if

16     there is a reference to this document in the question and if it would

17     then mislead the witness about what the Prosecution says it refers to,

18     that would be a reason to object.  Not in generally misstating the

19     evidence.  Evidence can be tested through every witness; therefore, my

20     ruling is that the objection is denied.  And it's not a first line for

21     another discussion.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, one last time:  Discussion of the status of the corps, that

25     relates to every soldier's benefits, every soldier's entitlements, every

Page 37185

 1     soldier's legal status, that's a fundamental enough issue that you and

 2     everybody in the corps command of course must have known that the defence

 3     minister and multiple corps commanders were in Banja Luka meeting about

 4     it; right?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to answer?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it was necessarily

 9     the case for every member of the army or even the higher officers to know

10     that the commander was coming there and why.  That was individual.  The

11     question was whether our status was being changed with his arrival.  I

12     claim here that the status of the 5th Corps changed in no way whatsoever

13     when it was renamed the 1st Corps.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see that it's time for the break and

15     I'd just tender the document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we do so -- before we deal with that,

17     you repeatedly referred to Ninkovic rather than Nikovic where the

18     document says Nikovic.  Now, we heard about Ninkovic earlier today as

19     being in the airforce and being in Banja Luka.

20             Witness, Witness --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true, Ninkovic.  Ninkovic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I didn't ask you at this moment.  I'm trying to

23     clarify something with the parties.

24             At the earlier occasion today, the first name was not mentioned.

25     So I do not know whether there is any possibility, and I'm also asking

Page 37186

 1     you, Mr. Lukic, whether there is any general Spiro Nikovic or whether it

 2     would be General Spiro Ninkovic, the same as we discussed earlier today.

 3             No objections?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I would have to check.  I don't know if there is a

 5     Spiro Nikovic.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to follow up with the witness, Your

 7     Honour, very briefly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, now this is the last time you're

 9     speaking aloud.

10             MR. LUKIC:  General Mladic is actually trying to help.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that, but he should not speak aloud.

12             MR. LUKIC:  No, he said that there is Nikovic as well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, then Mr. Mladic is giving

14     evidence which he is not supposed to do, unless he calls himself as a

15     witness in his own case, which as far as I know, has not been done yet.

16             I appreciate the assistance, and that's exactly why he should

17     discuss this with counsel, because counsel knows exactly what is the

18     proper way of introducing such a comment into the proceedings.

19             So the intentions are appreciated.  How it should be done is

20     through counsel.  I leave it to that.

21             I invite the parties to discuss it over the break and to see

22     whether any agreement can be reached on the issue Ninkovic versus

23     Nikovic.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, just so I don't forget, I would

25     maintain my request to tender the document, subject to any clarification

Page 37187

 1     about the name we'd make.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit number P7467.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             We'll take a break and we resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.  And we

 6     would like to see you then back, Witness, in 20 minutes.

 7                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just first verify whether the videolink is

12     functioning well.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honour.  We can see and

14     hear you clearly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We can see and hear you as well.

16             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

17             And is there any result from your discussions during the break

18     about with or without an N.

19             MR. TRALDI:  There is not.  Our notes are different as to the

20     spelling, and so we'll come back in the morning.  We do both agree that

21     it's not the same as the airforce general that we'd discussed earlier,

22     that that's Zivomir Nikovic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's at least one step.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 37188

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'm going to focus, for the rest of today, I

 2     expect, on your time in the Posavina corridor.

 3             Now, in mid-June 1992, the 1st Krajina Corps established a

 4     forward command post at Duge Njive; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That's near Doboj; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the operational group Doboj, commanded by Milivoje Simic,

 9     also had its headquarters there; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   That operational group was under the command of the 1st Krajina

12     Corps?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, General Talic would also at times come to the forward

15     command post in Duge Njive; right?

16        A.   I did not understand you.  He came what way?  He would come

17     where?

18        Q.   To that forward command post.  He would come during this period,

19     June and July 1992, to that forward command post.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Other members of the corps command staff, including

22     Colonel Bogojevic and Colonel Vukelic, stayed in Banja Luka; right?

23        A.   Not Blagojevic.  Bogojevic.  You said Blagojevic several times.

24     They came too, yes.

25        Q.   In fact, they were based in Banja Luka at this time; right?

Page 37189

 1        A.   They had their command post and that was another command post

 2     besides the one in Banja Luka, and they had another one --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear where.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   The interpreter didn't hear the location of the last command post

 6     you mentioned, sir.  Could you repeat it?

 7        A.   Stara Gradiska.  There is also Bosanska Gradiska and

 8     Nova Gradiska but they were in Stara Gradiska.

 9        Q.   Now, the Banja Luka command post at this time, that is at a

10     military training facility called Manjaca; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you mention a camp called Manjaca in your statement.  That's

13     less that a kilometre from the Manjaca command post; right?

14        A.   Yes.  That is in the same area.  It was a training-ground for

15     units with its own infrastructure, residential buildings, et cetera.

16     Yes.

17        Q.   Now, near that training-ground, what you mention in your

18     statement is a camp where people were detained by the VRS.  That was less

19     than a kilometre from the Manjaca command post; right?

20        A.   Yes, but I have to stress that that command post at that time was

21     not fully activated.  It had a communications system and it had a

22     security detail, so it served as backup.  But the main command post was

23     in Stara Gradiska.

24        Q.   And after the 15th of June, 1992, where was the main command

25     post?

Page 37190

 1        A.   The main command post was in Doboj.  When the corridor was opened

 2     up, when the gap was widened, the main command post was in Doboj.

 3        Q.   And there was a rail link between Banja Luka and Doboj; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   That was a strategically important railroad; right?

 6        A.   Correct.  It was strategically important, even back in times of

 7     the former Yugoslavia, Zagreb, Prijedor, Banja Luka, Doboj, and further

 8     on, Sarajevo, and Croatia.

 9        Q.   And as a strategically important feature running essentially from

10     one 1st Krajina Corps command post in Banja Luka to another, in Doboj,

11     the 1st Krajina Corps, of course, would have been aware of what was going

12     on on that railroad; right?

13        A.   He was kept abreast of all the main events in the territory.

14        Q.   And specifically important events regarding that rail link;

15     right?

16        A.   I don't know why that railway line interests you so much.  It was

17     a life-line through the area of responsibility --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- for rail transport.  The rest

20     was road transport.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't bother about what may interest

22     Mr. Traldi and what may not interest him but rather answer his question,

23     whether important events regarding the rail link, whether that was part

24     of what the corps command was kept abreast of.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The railway was very important for

Page 37191

 1     the transportation of personnel, equipment, passengers, and everything

 2     else that needed to be transported through the area of responsibility.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   And so the corps command was aware of important events on that

 5     rail line; right?

 6        A.   I wouldn't say that we kept an eye on everything that was going

 7     on.  If something extraordinary happened, we would be informed through

 8     the civilian protection and the information would come also to us, to the

 9     command post, through the assistant for civilian protection.

10        Q.   Would it be extraordinary for 4.000 people to be shipped out of

11     your area of responsibility through that rail line?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  4.000 in one shot or over a period of time?

13             MR. TRALDI:  4.000 on a train.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be very interesting, and

15     it was interesting, and the answer we received was that the Crisis Staff,

16     whatever it was called, of Prijedor had organised transport towards Doboj

17     and further on, wherever these people were supposed to go.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   So the corps command knew people were expelled from Prijedor by

20     train through this rail link; right?

21        A.   I would not use the word "expel."  They themselves wanted to go

22     to other areas, and transport was organised for them in order to be able

23     to cross over to other territories.

24        Q.   Did you ask any of them why they, in your words, wanted to go?

25        A.   Ask whom?  The passengers?

Page 37192

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   I never had any contact with these passengers.  But I received my

 3     information from ...

 4        Q.   Sorry, sir, who did you receive your information from?

 5        A.   From the assistant commander for civilian protection,

 6     Gojko Vojnovic, who told us at one meeting that groups from Prijedor were

 7     leaving to some agreed places.  I don't know which exactly.

 8        Q.   We'll get to the events in Prijedor in a little bit more detail

 9     tomorrow.

10             You also heard, right, about 4.000 people from Bosanski Novi

11     being transported by this rail link out of the 1st Krajina Corps' area of

12     responsibility; right?

13        A.   I don't know about Bosanski Novi.  It's the broader area of

14     Prijedor.  That's why it was formulated that way, the broader area of

15     Prijedor and Bosanski Novi.

16        Q.   And you must have heard that in the Doboj area the train was

17     stopped, all the military-aged men were taken off, and they were sent

18     back to Novi and detained; right?

19        A.   I don't know about that.

20        Q.   So you testified earlier -- you testified earlier that this rail

21     connection was a life-line.

22             Just checking if my microphone is working and apparently it's

23     not.  Let me try one more time.

24             Sir, you testified earlier that this rail connection was a

25     life-line.  You testified that it was very important.  You testified that

Page 37193

 1     the corps command was informed about extraordinary events, including the

 2     transport of large numbers of non-Serbs from Prijedor in that case.  Is

 3     it your evidence that in a situation like that hundreds of people can be

 4     forced off a train in Doboj on a strategically important rail link, a

 5     life-line for the corps, sent back through Banja Luka, through Prijedor,

 6     to Bosanski Novi, and the corps command can possibly be ignorant of that?

 7        A.   I did not say I didn't know about the transport.  I didn't know

 8     these people returned to Bosanski Novi.  I can really not say anything

 9     about it.  I don't remember that the collegium of the corps ever

10     presented or discussed it.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm going to just put to you that based on the importance

12     that you've testified this rail line had, your testimony in this respect

13     is not credible.  Do you have any comment on that?

14        A.   Yes, I do have a comment.  The focus of my work was to prevent

15     enemy forces from the north from cutting through the territory of

16     Republika Srpska on the line Derventa to Doboj.  I was concentrating on

17     that.  I'm not saying that what you're asking is not an important issue,

18     but I was totally focused on other tasks.  My main job was to prevent a

19     breakthrough of the enemy forces and stop them from dividing the

20     territory of Republika Srpska.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, now when the witness answered, I didn't want

22     to interrupt earlier --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             I would object to this kind of questions since it was not laid

Page 37194

 1     the foundation for -- sorry?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It has been answered already.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but I want to prevent this in the future.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Further questions to be put.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  First it has to be laid the foundation why this

 6     gentleman should be in charge of railway roads in Bosnia.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think the foundation has been laid by

 8     questions about whether relevant information about this railway link,

 9     which was important for the corps for the ... so the foundation is

10     sufficiently laid.

11             And, therefore, if Mr. Traldi would have any further questions,

12     he may put them to the witness.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn to Operation Corridor now.

17             Now you mention in paragraph 11 of your statement that the

18     planning and action of Operation Corridor were carried out under orders

19     of General Talic, together with Simic, Lisica and Borivoje Djukic from

20     the RSK MUP.

21             Now, in fact, 1 KK orders for combat operations during Corridor

22     were submitted to the Main Staff for approval; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Sir, on your list of officers supervising this operation you've

25     left out General Mladic; right?

Page 37195

 1        A.   General Mladic was not able to come to this spot because the

 2     corridor had been obstructed, but he could by communications and other

 3     means exerted an influence, an impact.  Physically, he could not come.

 4        Q.   Well, I'm going to deal with both parts of that answer in turn.

 5     First, what he exerted was command over the operation by approving or not

 6     approving the 1st Krajina Corps' orders for offensive operations; right?

 7        A.   That's true.  But this was not an offensive operation.  It was a

 8     defensive one.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P3672.

10        Q.   Now, this is a document from the Main Staff, and we see in

11     handwriting that it's urgent for the Doboj's operations group,

12     General Talic or General Kelecevic.  See the handwritten date, 27 June

13     1992.  In the bottom left corner of the B/C/S, we see General Mladic's

14     name typewritten.

15             The beginning of the document, under "approval of the decision,"

16     reads:

17             "I fully accept the decision on offensive operations ..."

18             The 1st Krajina Corps obviously, as General Mladic writes here,

19     conducted offensive operations during Corridor; right?

20        A.   Carries out offensive operations because the enemy forces had

21     penetrated deep into the territory of Republika Srpska already.  They had

22     practically come to a point 10, 12 kilometres from Doboj, and there was a

23     danger that they would divide Republika Srpska, cut it in two.  And of

24     course to repel the enemy to get them to return to their initial

25     positions, we needed to launch some counterattacks, and these are the

Page 37196

 1     offensive operations.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, a second ago you said that this was not an

 3     offensive operation.  Now you're explaining why it was.  May I remind you

 4     that such contradicting evidence is not -- could you -- could you please

 5     not -- could you please --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm not used to being interrupted.  I leave

 8     it to what I said.  Please keep in mind that giving two contradicting

 9     answers within two minutes raises concerns.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 22694.

12        Q.   This is a transcript of a video, sir.  For efficiency, I'm not

13     going to play the whole thing.

14             It's a video of General Mladic speaking.  At the beginning of his

15     second quote, after describing the circumstances which he says led to

16     Operation Corridor, he says:

17             "In such circumstances, we were forced to undertake extensive

18     offensive operations by our army with the intention of linking up

19     Republika Srpska, liberating the Serbian Posavina and driving out the

20     Ustasha from that area ..."

21             And then he continues.

22             So, again, what General Mladic is saying, that this was an

23     extensive offensive operation, that's the truth; right?

24        A.   Yes, it was an extensive operation.  However, within that

25     operation that were both offensive and defensive actions, so we cannot

Page 37197

 1     talk about only one type of action.  Sometimes the territory had to be

 2     defended without any counterattacks involved, and in other places the

 3     enemy had to be repelled by counterattacks.  And that's what I was trying

 4     to describe.  We were fighting a war to defend our homeland.  That's how

 5     it was defined.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 22694.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit number P7468.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, second, can we have P251, marked not admitted.

13             Now, this is going to be the war diary of the 1st Krajina Corps'

14     forward command post from June through August 1992.  And I'm looking for

15     page 89 in the English, 97 in the B/C/S.  And this is part of the

16     entry -- you can already see it on our screens in B/C/S.  Part of the

17     entry for 16th of July, 1992, we read in the middle of the page that:

18             "General Mladic and Colonel Kelecevic left for the liberated town

19     of Odzak to visit our positions in the liberated Posavina region."

20             So General Mladic, in fact, did come to the corridor on the 16th

21     of July and he went to Odzak with you; right?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   Now, when you were in Odzak --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  We could not hear the witness due to the

25     overlap.

Page 37198

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Sir, if you could repeat the remainder of your answer.

 3        A.   I said that it was correct.  As regards the period, I don't

 4     remember whether it was the 16th, but I do remember that he came there

 5     accompanied by General Simic and that we went to the Sava River through

 6     Derventa and Odzak in order to reach the banks.

 7        Q.   Now, when you went to Odzak you noticed, I'm sure, that property,

 8     large amounts of property, had been destroyed and that thousands of

 9     non-Serbs had recently fled; right?

10        A.   That is correct.  There was combat, and first it was the Croat

11     Muslim forces that went through the area to Doboj and then returned.  So

12     there was destruction and combat conduct by both sides in the course of

13     some ten days or so.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32081.

15        Q.   This is an article from the "Toronto Star" dated the 18th of

16     July, 1992 entitled:  "5.000 Bosnians on Trains to Nowhere."  We see the

17     description of 5.000 Bosnian refugees cramped like cattle into three

18     foul-smelling trains.  We see in the third paragraph that they are

19     described as men, women, and children, victims of war and ethnic

20     cleansing.

21             Turning to page 2 - it will be towards the bottom - we see that:

22             "Almost all the refugees on the trains are Slavic Muslims from

23     the Bosnian towns of Odzak and Modrica which were shelled and burned in a

24     fresh Serbian onslaught that began about two weeks ago. "

25             You were aware when you and General Mladic visited that Odzak,

Page 37199

 1     among other areas in the corridor, had just been shelled and burned by

 2     the VRS and that thousands of non-Serbs were fleeing; right?

 3        A.   This requires a more comprehensive answer and I can't say whether

 4     it is right or not.

 5             First of all, in the area there were 40 brigades active; 18 on

 6     the Croat and Muslim side and 22 brigades from Republika Srpska over an

 7     extensive period of time and over an extensive front line.  It wasn't

 8     just a small pocket.  It was a very wide front line where this operation

 9     concerning the opening up of the corridor took place, from Brcko to

10     another point some 70 kilometres away.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you about the scope of Operation Corridor at

12     the moment.  I think we've covered that.  What I'm asking you at the

13     moment is:  You were aware when you General Mladic visited Odzak that

14     Odzak, among other areas in the corridor, had just been shelled and

15     burned by the VRS and thousands of non-Serbs were fleeing.  You knew

16     that; right?

17        A.   I can't say that.  The distance involved is some 20 to 25

18     kilometres away from the front line.  Who did that is something that

19     needs to be examined.  The enemy forces could have fired upon the area to

20     destroy it as well.  There must have been houses destroyed by the Croat

21     and Muslim forces en route to and back through the area.  I do not deny

22     that there was no destruction as part of the combat, but I can also -- I

23     also cannot say that it was done exclusively by the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   But you can't deny that at least some of it was done by the army

Page 37200

 1     of Republika Srpska; right?

 2        A.   Of course some of it must have done that way in order to drive

 3     them out of the territory and reach the banks of the Sava River.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32061.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the witness -- you said:  "In order to

 6     drive them out of the territory," what did you refer to by "them"?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To drive out the army on the Muslim

 8     and Croat side.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you said a minute ago that this was not combat.

10     I have some difficulties in understanding how shelling not being part of

11     combat would nevertheless aimed at driving out military forces.  Do you

12     have an explanation for that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, Your Honour, first of all,

14     the Croat Muslim forces conducted combat activities from the Sava to

15     nearly Doboj, some 10 kilometres away from the town.  The area covers

16     some 30 kilometres where they cut off the corridor.  Their goal was to

17     enter Doboj and continue onwards across Mount Ozren.  So the depth of the

18     combat zone was between 20 and 30 kilometres.  The VRS did not fight in

19     Odzak and other locations at the time.  That is why I said there was no

20     combat there.  There was hand-to-hand combat as the enemy forces were

21     being driven out to the border of Republika Srpska; i.e., the Sava River.

22     That is what I said.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think earlier a reference was made to shelling,

24     not hand-to-hand combat.  But I leave it to that for the time being.

25             Mr. Traldi, it's quarter past 2.00.

Page 37201

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I will just have one question on this document if

 2     the Chamber --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put that question to the witness.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Sir, this is a story from the British Broadcasting Corporation

 6     summary of world broadcasts 28 July 1992 picking up on something from

 7     Croatian Radio, and it's reporting -- relaying a report by

 8     Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina that at least 10.000 residents of the Teslic

 9     region, near Doboj, mainly Croats and Muslims, have been driven out.

10     That's another region in the Posavina corridor where non-Serbs were

11     driven out in huge numbers during Operation Corridor; right?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer now?

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Yes, sir.

16        A.   First of all, from the area of Teslic via the corridor, well,

17     there were no expulsions there, and people did not need to leave Teslic

18     in the direction of the Sava in that direction.  If there were some

19     movements, it could have only occurred further in depth towards the Usora

20     river and Teslic rather than moving towards the corridor and the

21     Sava River.  It was out of the question.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I appreciate your patience.  I'll

23     tender this last document, ask the previous one be MFI'd as we haven't

24     uploaded a translation, and that will complete my questions for today.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

Page 37202

 1             Mr. Registrar, could you assign the relevant numbers.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  They shall be assigned Exhibit number P7469 and

 3     P7470 respectively.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you also ask --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you also asked for P7469 to be MFI'd,

 6     Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  The first one - 32081 was the 65 ter - if that is

 8     P7469, then that's the one I'd ask to be MFI'd, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That it is.

10             Therefore, P7469 is marked for identification, pending

11     translation.

12             And P7470, there was the B/C/S version of that one, is admitted

13     into evidence.

14             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

15     tomorrow.  But before you leave the videolink room, I would like to

16     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way

17     with whomever it may be about your testimony, whether that is testimony

18     you've given or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow or

19     even perhaps the day after tomorrow.

20             Is that clear to you?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the videolink may be closed.

23                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, the

25     14th of July, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

Page 37203

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day

 3                           of July, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.