Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37373

 1                           Thursday, 16 July 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             We'll continue to -- with the cross-examination, but, Mr. Lukic,

13     later today we'll deal with a few procedural matters, and the Chamber

14     would very much appreciate if you could give an update about Plan A or

15     Plan B, starting on the 10th of August.

16             Meanwhile, Mr. Kelecevic, I'd like to remind you that you're

17     bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of

18     your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

19     but the truth.

20             Mr. Registrar, I finally would like to check whether the

21     videolink is functioning well.  Can you hear me, can you see us?

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can see and

23     hear you clearly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the same is true in the other direction.

25             Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination -- his

Page 37374

 1     re-examination, yes, of course.  I misspoke, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           WITNESS:  BOSKO KELECEVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness testified through interpreter]

 7                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General.  Good morning, General.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   I will start with something we touched upon yesterday.  I'm

12     afraid I'll eventually run out of time so I'd rather deal with this now.

13             At page 37292 of yesterday's transcript concerning P7479 -- well,

14     I'll read out the question and your answer and then I'll have a question

15     for you.

16             Lines 15 through 18, [In English] I'll quote:

17             "Now this is a reflection that by early April 1992 the

18     122nd Brigade had been deployed back to Bosnia from Croatia and was

19     responsible for, among other places, the area of Kotor Varos; right?

20             "A.  Yes."

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Please tell us what Peulic was responsible for,

23     that is to say, the 122nd Brigade in the area of Kotor Varos.  Were they

24     responsible for the towns, villages, or something else?

25        A.   The brigade --

Page 37375

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I'd just ask for a date reference in the question so

 3     that it's clear whether he's referring to -- or at what point Mr. Lukic

 4     is referring to.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think it was in the question:  Early April 1992.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  It was in my question.  I hadn't been clear if it

 7     was in his.  But with that clarification, I'm happy.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The question focuses on the responsibility of

 9     Mr. Peulic, early April 1992, Witness.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Please tell us what Peulic was responsible for in the area of

12     Kotor Varos, both in early April 1992 and later on.  If you know.

13        A.   The brigade commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic was deployed

14     at the Vlasic plateau on Mount Vlasic.  The altitude there is quite high.

15     His front line or his area of responsibility, I don't know exactly, but

16     it followed a 20- to 25-kilometre line.  That was the AOR of his brigade,

17     including the biggest settlement in the area, Kotor Varos.

18        Q.   Do you know if the army was deployed into towns themselves?

19        A.   Only some patrols or security could be present in the town.  Most

20     of the other soldiers were at the front line because enemy forces were

21     expected to arrive from the area of Travnik and from the direction of the

22     Muslim-Croat forces.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter number 2596 on

25     our screens.

Page 37376

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This document has already been admitted into

 2     evidence as P7480.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S version is missing.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We will -- [Interpretation] Let us look at this

 5     extract from the minutes of the 100th Session of the War Presidency on

 6     16 October 1992 in Kotor Varos.  We will require the second page in the

 7     English.  The second paragraph in the English, being the last

 8     paragraph in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   It reads as follows:

10             "Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic took the floor again and pointed out

11     that the general position and achieved agreements on population

12     resettlement and hand-over of weapons must not be abandoned."

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go one page back in the

14     English to the first page.  The last paragraph in the English version,

15     which is the fifth paragraph in the B/C/S on page 1.

16        Q.   It reads as follows:

17             "President Nedeljko D pointed out that an International Red Cross

18     team had been in the area again yesterday, that the negotiators had gone

19     to Vecici too, and that the initial results from Vecici were not

20     favourable, that they had met with the other side's representatives

21     (Baltina), that a list containing the names of 1200 to 1500 people had

22     been compiled, that this will require about 30 buses.  Intensified

23     activity relating to moving out should be expected in the course of the

24     day and hand-over of weapons, and that representatives of the Red Cross

25     and possibly journalists are expected."

Page 37377

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, just one question.  The word in

 2     brackets is it in B/C/S Baltina as translated or Bastina?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It's hard to see.  Could be both, but could be

 4     Bastina too.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the witness could clarify this.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think he can see it on the screen.

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The witness is able to read this,

 8     Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Then I'll ask if he knows.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, General, in this fifth paragraph,

11     if you can see the parentheses, does it read Baltina or Bastina?

12        A.   I'm not familiar with that area, but my guess would be that the

13     location is on the Muslim side, if I follow the logic of the sentence.  I

14     think it is Baltina.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know anything about the negotiations that took

16     place in Vecici?

17        A.   I can't tell you anything specific about the negotiations.  I do

18     know that the gist of it is reflected in what Colonel Peulic said.  He

19     said that we should be persistent in collecting the weapons.  He was

20     addressing the Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos, insisting that the weapons be

21     handed over and that the forces in Kotor Varos be disarmed.  He said that

22     the activity should continue because it was not completed.

23        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of whether the arms were handed over,

24     indeed, and whether the civilians left Vecici?

25        A.   I have no knowledge.  I don't remember that because, at that

Page 37378

 1     time, as I said, I was in a completely different area.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Next I'd like to ask you about your answer provided

 3     on page 37317, line 20 till the end of the page, and it continues on to

 4     page 37318, lines 1 through 4.

 5             You were asked to answer a very complex question, and I will try

 6     to break up the question put by Mr. Traldi.  To the best of your

 7     recollection, did the VRS and the 1st Krajina Corps implement the first

 8     strategic goal, i.e., separation from Muslims and Croats, by detaining

 9     and killing Muslims and Croats?

10        A.   No.  One cannot formulate it that way.  We cannot say that the

11     VRS was doing it strategically.  It wasn't engaged in any separation.

12     The goal was always to keep those who were loyal and who forwarded the

13     policies of Republika Srpska and who were prepared to stay in the area,

14     to keep them in the area and include them in the armed force, rather than

15     separating the peoples in a very determined way.

16        Q.   The next question.  Did the VRS and the 1st Krajina Corps

17     implement the first strategic goal of separation from Muslims and Croats

18     by removing Muslims and Croats through exchanges?

19        A.   One also cannot say that was the case.  Those who wished to leave

20     were allowed to go freely and safely.  In such cases, the authorities and

21     the army enabled their passage unhindered through certain areas and

22     exchanges to take place.  In my view, no pressure was made for exchanges

23     to occur, unless there was a will on both sides.

24        Q.   Next --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you seek a clarification of that

Page 37379

 1     last answer which is a bit ambiguous, especially the "unless there was a

 2     will on both sides."

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   General, you've heard the Judge, you've heard Judge Orie.

 5        A.   Yes, I've heard him.  I mean the Serb and the Muslim side agree

 6     that the exchanges be carried out.  That is the core of the matter.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I understand your answer to be:  No pressure

 8     was made for exchanges to occur and that the exchanges were made only if

 9     there was a will on both sides.  Is that what you meant to say?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, pressures don't have to come

11     from both sides.  The most important thing is here is the following:  If

12     those who wanted to leave the areas where they were, it was only natural

13     that they would be allowed to leave, if that was their will, if that was

14     their intention, but they were supposed to be able leave securely,

15     safely.  That is what was supposed to be ensured for them.

16             I'm sorry, the other side.  I do apologise.  May I just finish

17     explaining the sense of all of this?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other side should ensure their

20     free passage through the zone of the brigade so that they could go to the

21     area where they said they wanted to go.  So unhindered safe passage

22     through the area of responsibility.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then put one follow-up question to you.  You

24     said what was done for those who wished to leave.  Were there any who'd

25     rather stay and did not wish to leave?  And what happened to them?

Page 37380

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, in relation to, I mean,

 2     the policy of the Serb authorities and thereby the army as well, those

 3     who wished to stay would stay and - how should I put this? - they were

 4     loyal to the authority, specifically, in this case, the authorities of

 5     Kotor Varos.  They could freely live there, unhindered, take care of

 6     their own business, depending on the combat situation, whether there was

 7     firing or not.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one other follow-up question.  If they

 9     wished to stay but if they disagreed with the authority, at the same time

10     not taking up weapons, what would happen to them?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my view -- I mean, I'm not

12     speaking specifically about this particular case but I'm speaking in

13     general terms.  I mean, I'm speaking about --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like you to talk about this specific case.  And

15     I think we're still talking about Kotor Varos.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot speak specifically

17     about that case because, as for Kotor Varos, I wasn't there then and I

18     did not have any detailed conversations with my officers who came to see

19     me at the corridor to inform me about certain matters.  So specifically

20     what happened to those people who were not carrying out tasks issued by

21     the authorities of Kotor Varos, I don't know how the civilian authorities

22     treated them.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 37381

 1        Q.   General, my next question.  The Army of Republika Srpska and the

 2     1st Corps, were they carrying out the first strategic goal, separation

 3     from the Muslims by moving the population out?

 4        A.   My answer is a categorical no.

 5        Q.   My last question, with regard to this topic, that is:  The Army

 6     of Republika Srpska, the 1st Krajina Corps, were they carrying out the

 7     second strategic goal, opening the corridor by carrying out Operation

 8     Corridor?

 9        A.   I did not understand the essence of your question.  Why the

10     corridor was being opened?  I can explain why it was being opened.

11        Q.   Was it in accordance with the second-mentioned strategic goal, to

12     the extent to which you remember it, and it is the opening of the

13     corridor and linking up with the East Bosnian Corps and Semberija.

14        A.   The East Bosnian Corps and the western part of the Army of

15     Republika Srpska -- I mean, the Eastern Bosnian Corps of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska and the western part -- I mean, Kordun, Banija, Lika,

17     Dalmatia, these areas where Serbs lived, that was justified and that is

18     why it was being opened.  That was the basic task for opening the

19     corridor, that was it precisely, so that they could come unhindered from

20     the eastern area so that they could get there.  At that time even

21     medicine could not arrive, I've already mentioned that, also oxygen

22     bottles.  And 12 babies died because of that situation in Banja Luka.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The date before yesterday there was some discussion

24     about Odzak.  What were the forces that were in Odzak before the VRS

25     entered Odzak?

Page 37382

 1        A.   In Odzak, it was majority Muslim forces.

 2        Q.   Around --

 3        A.   Well, what was observed.  That was the intelligence that was

 4     there, that in the broader area there were also parts of infiltrated

 5     forces from the Republic of Croatia, from the other side of the Sava

 6     river.

 7        Q.   In Odzak and around Odzak, was there fighting before the forces

 8     of the Army of Republika Srpska entered?

 9        A.   There was fighting.  Most of it around Brod because that is where

10     a group was infiltrated from the Croat side.  And there was this family,

11     Zecevic, and I cannot remember the name of the other ones.  Quite simply,

12     they were massacred, they were slaughtered, and the situation was very,

13     very difficult.  It was harrowing, the situation around Brod.

14        Q.   Do you remember when that happened?

15        A.   I remember that the massacre took place on the 26th of March, the

16     26th of March.  And later on, in succession, this went on until May and

17     mid-June.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for clarity, which year?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  P2886, please.  Could we

22     have a look at that now.

23        Q.   This is a fairly long document:  Analysis of activity concerning

24     elements of combat readiness in 1992.  My colleague Mr. Traldi showed you

25     page 12.

Page 37383

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So I would kindly ask to have page 12

 2     in the English version and page 17 in the B/C/S version.  In the English

 3     version, it's the last paragraph.  And in the B/C/S version, the second

 4     paragraph from the top.

 5        Q.   There is a reference to the number of persons taken prisoner, and

 6     it says that there is a certain number of prisoners of war, over 9.200

 7     prisoners were exchanged, and you were asked about this.

 8             Let me ask you the following.  A combatant in the field that

 9     finds a military-aged man in the field, does he have the right to assess

10     whether that person is a combatant or not?

11        A.   He does have that right, if he can assess that or establish that.

12     If not, such a person is brought in so that other organs can assess

13     whether that person is a combatant or a civilian.  Whether that person is

14     a member of an army, that would be a better term.  It is more specific to

15     say a member of an army rather than just combatant, which is a more

16     general term.

17        Q.   On transcript page 37221, from line 23 to 25, in response to a

18     question along these lines, there is the answer you gave and I'm going to

19     quote it:

20             [In English] "Well, again, I'm telling you, I have no way of

21     knowing whether it was a civilian or a military conscript until certain

22     checks were completed."

23             [Interpretation] What kind of checks, General?  Who carries out

24     these checks?

25        A.   Who carries out checks as to whether somebody is a civilian or a

Page 37384

 1     combatant?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the

 3     witness.  Now Mr. Lukic is speaking at the same time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Just a moment, please.  The Judge is saying something.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters noted, Mr. Lukic, that you

 8     interrupted when the witness was still speaking --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and, therefore, they couldn't hear him.  Could

11     you please resume --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  I'll see where we -- [Interpretation]

13     Thank you.

14        Q.   So your answer has not been recorded.  After reading this out, I

15     asked you what kind of checks are carried out.  Who carries out these

16     checks, whether somebody is a soldier or a civilian, if that person is

17     brought in.

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, it all depends on the place where that person was

19     taken prisoner, if I can put it that way, or where that person is

20     captured.  If it is in the area of combat activity, if it was on the

21     front line itself, a soldier cannot carry out such a check at the front

22     line.  The only thing that can he do is take that person through the

23     combat order, hand that person over to the civilian authorities, and let

24     them establish who this person is.  The army doesn't have time to do that

25     and it is not fully equipped to carry out such checks then.  Those basic

Page 37385

 1     checks, as in taking person's details, that can be carried out by some

 2     orders behind the lines.  But at the front line itself there is no time

 3     for that kind of thing and such checks cannot be carried out there.  That

 4     has to be done either by civilians or the organs of the military police,

 5     if that unit does have a police.  Not each and every unit has its own

 6     military police.

 7        Q.   If such a person was brought to Manjaca, who carries out the

 8     checks then, and what kind of checks?

 9        A.   If that person was brought to Manjaca and there is a procedure at

10     the gate itself, at the entrance itself, because Manjaca is a fenced-off

11     area, it's a big area, it used to be a military facility.  How do I put

12     this?  There was this manufacturing there and so on and so forth.  So at

13     the gate itself, a check is carried out as to who it is that's coming in.

14     Then the person is being taken to a particular facility and handed over

15     to the security organs that carry out this check once the person is

16     already within the facility.  And then lists are created, name, surname,

17     date of birth, all these details that are required so that these persons

18     could be on various lists.  So every person that entered Manjaca had to

19     be recorded in these lists.  And I'm convinced that the police, the

20     military police, did that at Manjaca.  As far as Manjaca is concerned,

21     that is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one follow-up question there.

23             Are you aware of persons being checked at the gate, that it was

24     established that those persons were civilians and therefore they were not

25     further admitted into the camp but, rather, sent home because the first

Page 37386

 1     check showed that they were civilians?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know of such a check, that

 3     a soldier could take him back immediately and say, You cannot go in.  I

 4     know of one case only and I mentioned it yesterday.  The civilian

 5     authorities tried -- there were about ten or eight dead bodies.  They

 6     tried to hand them over and that was not accepted so they --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness, I'm not talking about dead

 8     bodies.  I'm talking about living persons arriving at the gate and at the

 9     first check that it was established, or perhaps immediately after that,

10     that they were not members of the army.  Are you aware of any such

11     persons then being released and being sent back home?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of any such check or

13     any such person.  And if that did happen, then the person at the gate did

14     not act properly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is not entirely clear to me.

16             I have one other question going back to the text which is before

17     you about the exchanges.  I slowly read what it says.  It says:

18             "We achieved significant results in activities related to

19     prisoner-of-war exchanges."

20             And then it further explains that 9.200 prisoners were exchanged,

21     of which 2.300 were military personnel.

22             Now this suggests that the other close to 7.000 were not military

23     personnel but they're still described as prisoners of war and prisoners

24     having been exchanged.  Do you have any comment on the -- what the text

25     suggests, that it is 7.000 who are not military men nevertheless being

Page 37387

 1     exchanged, as the document says, as prisoners?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to the entire year and

 3     the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps, about 9.200.  You

 4     know how big the area was.  I don't want to repeat that.  2.300 military

 5     men.  I cannot give any comment on that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, how this went -- I mean, I

 8     cannot give any comment, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, the Judge asked you about the 7.000.  How did their

12     exchange occur so that they were exchanged as POWs where it had been

13     established they were -- that they were not military personnel.  So you

14     were asked about the 7.000 by the Judge.  Do you have an explanation?

15        A.   There was an exchange with the opposing side.  On the opposing

16     side, there were also many people of Serb ethnicity who were taken

17     prisoner by the other side.  Those exchange commissions were in contact

18     and the exchange took place.

19        Q.   Very well.  Let's look at P230 next.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this is Exhibit P230.  Thank

21     you.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] You were asked about this document yesterday.

24     At the beginning of it, it is stated that on the 13th of July, 1992, a

25     visit was made possible to Manjaca camp and that all of the requests made

Page 37388

 1     by the seven-member delegation were agreed to.  They spent three days in

 2     the camp, prisoners were allowed to write to their families.  They were

 3     allowed to register the prisoners and to talk to them alone "without our

 4     presence."  They also inspected their medical care and diet.

 5             Yesterday at transcript page 37228, lines 5 through 15,

 6     Mr. Traldi suggested that Colonel Vukelic reported that the Red Cross

 7     team interrupted the visit and any further talks because they were not

 8     allowed to meet the four prisoners designated by Colonel Vukelic as

 9     criminals.  They also objected to the amount of food given to the

10     prisoners and their loss of weight, as well as to the traces of blood

11     visible on the prisoners.  And I wanted to read out a portion of this

12     document and see what it says:

13             "The entire team broke off today's discussion and visits [sic] to

14     the camp because, allegedly, they had not been allowed to meet with four

15     prisoners (criminals) on whom a military court had earlier been passed

16     judgement.  The representatives were shown their sentences and were even

17     allowed to talk to them freely.  They were surprised by this, and they

18     made observations about the quantities of food, loss of weight of the

19     prisoners, the risk of an epidemic breaking out and the like.  They had

20     no valid points to corroborate their observations, and the suggestion to

21     have a group of medical experts examine them was rejected.  Specifically

22     they demanded the release of 19 prisoners on account of their state of

23     health.  As a matter of fact, these individuals were among the greatest

24     extremists.  They rejected our explanation that these people were

25     guaranteed improved medical care, and that they could see it for

Page 37389

 1     themselves.  They levelled accusations at the treatment of the prisoners

 2     and they claimed to have seen fresh traces of blood and had no answer to

 3     the question of the prison commander as to" --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we have the second

 5     page in English.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the second page in English.  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] "... why they had not allowed a doctor (one of

 9     the prisoners) to establish that immediately."

10             General, do you remember this report and do you know what

11     followed in further discussions with the ICRC?

12        A.   I don't remember this report specifically.  How could I?  In any

13     case, I remember some of the procedures.  I can say the following.  Those

14     who were included in discussions concerning food, I claim responsibly

15     that they enjoyed the same food as the fighters at the front lines.  I

16     could observe that when I visited a hangar, a hall, accommodating those

17     prisoners.  I talked to them in person, and none of them complained about

18     that.  I always conduct such conversations in a humane way, without any

19     tension or threat.  It was a civilised conversation I had with them, and

20     they didn't say anything of the sort.  I couldn't, of course, visit all

21     of the hangars and visit some three and a half thousand of them, but I

22     think I saw some 6- to 700 people.

23             As for their receiving small quantities of food, I can't believe

24     that.  First of all, the military camp warden enjoyed my greatest

25     respect, who was a very orderly, diligent officer who kept things well in

Page 37390

 1     order.  Second of all, these prisoners, or inmates, whatever we call

 2     them, never left Manjaca to work on fortifying certain positions which

 3     was the case with the Serbs in other theatres of war in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             As for the medical care and the assertion that the 19 were not

 6     receiving medical care, I remember very well that, according to the list,

 7     92 people from Manjaca who were singled out by the medical commission

 8     were sent to Geneva for treatment.

 9             I can't remember any longer what else you wanted me to say.

10             As for the traces of blood, this is the first time I hear about

11     that and that no possibility was given to investigate that and how that

12     blood came to be there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The situation described in the document is July.

14     You said you went to Manjaca in late August 1992.  What do you know

15     specifically about the situation mid-July?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I didn't say that

17     I visited it in late August.  I can't say precisely what the date was

18     when I visited it.  If I said so, even now I can't claim or say what the

19     date was.  I visited one of the halls and I don't know when exactly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in your statement I read:

21             "On one occasion, approximately in late August 1992, I personally

22     visited the Manjaca centre."

23             You have attested to the truth of that.  Is your evidence to be

24     understood now that you don't know whether it was late August?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It was precisely that way.  If

Page 37391

 1     it has to do with the military prisoners who were transferred from

 2     Omarska and Keraterm because they were --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness, I'm only asking about the date,

 4     nothing else at this moment, and I asked you where in your statement you

 5     say it was late August that you went there, that you now say you don't

 6     know when it was.  Is that your testimony now, that you don't remember

 7     that it was in late August?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that it was -- now why

 9     am I making this link in terms of dates?  Because the prisoners in

10     Omarska arrived between the 6th and 10th of August.  Therefore, they

11     could not have been there in July.  There were some prisoners there who

12     had been there previously.  I was talking about those who arrived from

13     the general area of Prijedor.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the document before us is the 16th of

15     July, so that was what the questions were about, and that was Manjaca

16     camp.  If you say no opportunity was given to further investigate the

17     traces of blood, then that was in -- established in July; at least it was

18     seen at that point in time.

19             Do you know any further specifics about what happened in July in

20     Manjaca?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd rather not comment on July.  I

22     don't know anything about that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only know about those I talked to

25     in August.

Page 37392

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so it was in August.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   General, what is your knowledge about the release of people from

 5     Manjaca?  Do you have any personal knowledge or did you participate

 6     personally?

 7        A.   Did you have in mind the exchange of those prisoners or ...

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   I understood your question.

10             President Karadzic, sometime in early December, although I don't

11     know the exact date, sent an order requesting that the POWs from Manjaca

12     be exchanged and the camp disbanded.  It was supposed to be done safely

13     and securely.  The exchange was supposed to take place via

14     Banja Luka-Laktasi-Topola-Gradiska and across the Sava into Croatia.  The

15     exchange took place in some three to four days because not all of them

16     left at once.  They left in groups of some 20 buses so around 1.000

17     people could be exchanged in one go.

18             The exchange continued.  I'm personally familiar with a case in

19     the village of Klasnice near Laktasi.  We had information that an ambush

20     was set up there in order to make the passage of prisoners and buses

21     impossible and to have them killed or something else.  I'm not sure.

22             General Talic personally issued an order to me, because I was

23     well familiar with that area, to go there and check the situation.  When

24     I arrived, the situation was quite heated and difficult.  Some people

25     were there who simply wanted to block the passage of the column.  With

Page 37393

 1     the assistance of an officer, I explained to the group what the

 2     consequences could be.  I told them that the order had come from the

 3     Supreme Commander and that it had to go through.  I won't elaborate much

 4     further, but --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can't hear the witness

 6     because of the quality of sound.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to deal with it in a safe

 8     way and I talked to those people trying to prevent it from happening.

 9     Had something of the sort indeed taken place, it would have been fatal,

10     not only for the city of Banja Luka but for the VRS as well.  Because I

11     know what a POW is, I know that such a person needs to be made and kept

12     safe and ensured passage.  Later on, the military police also secured

13     certain check-points, making sure that the column passed through safely

14     in the three or four occasions that the exchange took place.  Some 3- to

15     3.500 POWs were exchanged without any incidents.  Perhaps a bus window

16     was broken here and there but that was all.  I know that it was done in

17     terms of exchanging those people who were at Manjaca.  With that, the

18     camp at Manjaca was practically shut down.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at P2243 next.

21             MR. TRALDI:  This is under seal.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Under seal, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal.  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

24     If you go to a new subject, perhaps it would be better to take the break

25     first.

Page 37394

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We can go to -- have a break, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We have a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to

 3     see you back after the break, Witness.

 4             Mr. Lukic, are you on track as far as time is concerned?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Today it goes a bit slower.  I agreed with my

 6     colleague Mr. Traldi and I will take next half an hour and leave him half

 7     an hour in the next session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I see Mr. Traldi is nodding yes, so apparently he

 9     agrees.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break and resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

12                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

15                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] General, I was told -- P2243, under seal.  I

19     have been informed, General, that you don't have this, so we are going to

20     see it on our screens.  I'm going to read out something.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Again, the document's under seal and for reasons I'd

23     ask that we move into private session or at least not broadcast it.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I said under seal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. Lukic said under seal.

Page 37395

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And what I'd intended that should indicate at least

 2     that it not -- an instruction that it not be broadcast which hadn't yet

 3     been given.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I do agree.  But I take it that Mr. Registrar is

 5     already drawing that conclusion.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, we have to move into private session

 8     if any part of it is read.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 37396

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   General, you were asked if Zeljaja was removed.  Let me ask you

14     this:  Were you ever informed that Zeljaja killed women or children?

15        A.   I was never informed of any such thing.

16        Q.   Without referring to a source, but were you familiar with these

17     documents during the war?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

20        A.   I wasn't familiar with them.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we next have P2900, please.

22        Q.   It is a document from the CSB commission entitled:  "Work of

23     investigation centres in the region - documents."  Therefore, it is a

24     police report.

25             I'd like direct your attention to page 3 in both versions.

Page 37397

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, could we go back to page 2 first.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] What you can see on the screen, the report was

 3     compiled by the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka.  The title of the

 4     report is:  Concerning the situation as found and questions relating to

 5     prisoners, collection centres, resettlement, and the role of the SJB in

 6     connection with these activities.

 7             The first municipality in line is Prijedor and its reception

 8     centres.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need to go to the next page in

10     both versions, which is page 3.  In English ... [In English] Can we see

11     the top of the page, please.  We have to go one page back in English

12     version, I'm sorry.

13             There is obviously missing one part in English version.  I will

14     read it.  This the first paragraph on this page in B/C/S version.  We

15     will ask for this translation to be revised.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] I quote:

17             "In order to solve the problem that had arisen, the Crisis Staff

18     of the municipality of Prijedor decided to organise reception and

19     accommodation in the settlement of Trnopolje for persons who sought

20     protection and that prisoners of war should be held for processing in the

21     building of the Keraterm RO in Prijedor or in the administrative building

22     and work-shop of the RZR in Omarska."

23             MR. TRALDI:  Just for --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's in the English.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I was going to say, I think, the same thing as you,

Page 37398

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's:  "In order to solve the problem that had

 3     arisen, the Crisis Staff," it's in the middle of the second paragraph.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I'm ... I'm sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, did the Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality inform the

 8     1st Krajina Corps about this; if you know?

 9        A.   I don't know of the 1st Corps being informed.  I do know about

10     the camp in Trnopolje.  In my understanding, it was open-type centre.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 4 in the English in the

13     same document, the first paragraph, and page 4 in the B/C/S, the last

14     paragraph.

15        Q.   Please follow the last paragraph which reads:

16             "On 27 May 1992, pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff of

17     the municipality of Prijedor, all the prisoners from the Keraterm

18     facility in Prijedor were transferred to the facility in Omarska.  Under

19     the same decision, the Omarska facility was placed under the direct

20     supervision of the police and the army.  The police, i.e., Omarska police

21     station, was charged with the immediate security of the administration

22     building itself, the workshops and the garages for the work machinery,

23     while the army took over in-depth security in the form of sentry posts

24     and the mining of certain areas as they saw fit."

25             Can you tell us what "in-depth security" is; and do you know at

Page 37399

 1     what distance the army was from the facility where the prisoners were

 2     kept?

 3        A.   I did not personally visit the camp at Trnopolje, and I'm not

 4     familiar with the location.  I do know that in-depth security is always

 5     away from the facility along certain axes from which potential attacks or

 6     interventions on the facility can be expected, including attacks on the

 7     people accommodated there, regardless of the side included in such

 8     incidents.  If the army participated, and judging by the document it did,

 9     according to the Crisis Staff, it was duty-bound to secure the facility

10     so that only checked personnel could enter.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Just to put on the record I see the witness has been

13     making some notes, and I'd just ask if he'd have an objection to a copy

14     being made and sent to us.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Mr. Traldi observed that you're making

16     notes.  Is it -- do you want to share that with the Prosecution so

17     that ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm just noting down a date or

19     two.  If need be, I can tear it up now, this second, before your eyes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The question was not whether you wanted to

21     tear it but the question was whether you wanted to share it.  And by

22     destroying it, I take it that the answer is no, this is --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would write down a date or two so

24     as to remind myself where I was at the time.  That's the gist of it.  If

25     I had been warned not to keep notes, I would not have.

Page 37400

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the witness apparently is not inclined

 2     to share it with you.  There's only an invitation.  I leave it to that.

 3     Unless you come up with something else.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In the same document, we

 6     need page 6 in the English and page 8 in the B/C/S.  In the English,

 7     we're interested in the third paragraph under the heading of:  The role

 8     of Prijedor SJB and its personnel.  In the B/C/S, it is the last

 9     paragraph on that page, also the third from the top.

10        Q.   It reads:

11             "Pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff of the municipality

12     of Prijedor, police personnel attended to the physical security of the

13     Keraterm facility in Prijedor, and subsequently the transportation of the

14     prisoners to the RZR ... in Omarska and the physical security of this

15     facility as well.  On the basis of the results of operative processing of

16     prisoners, the police found the persons who were wanted and brought them

17     to Omarska.  After questioning, the police also looked after security

18     during transportation to the Manjaca army camp or to the Open Reception

19     Centre in Trnopolje."

20             General, do you know whether the 1st Krajina Corps ever drafted

21     reports on the work of Omarska, Keraterm, or Trnopolje?

22        A.   I don't know about that.  Sometimes the Crisis Staff provided

23     reports, but I don't remember this particular instance.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at 65 ter number 11 --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we do that, could we turn -- could

Page 37401

 1     we go back to page 3 in the English of this document.

 2             Witness, I read the following part of -- and I must admit that I

 3     don't know where it is in the B/C/S version, but ...

 4             MR. LUKIC:  What do you want to read if I may help?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's the paragraph that starts with --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I cannot ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Just a moment, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  "... the facilities of the Keraterm work

11     organisation," that's the paragraph I wanted to read from.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, as a matter of fact, let me just see what ...

14     no, it's the -- yes, but I still have to find it in English.  One second,

15     please.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's page --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second --

18             MR. LUKIC:  -- 4, first paragraph --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know yet which ...

20             I made a mistake.  It may be the second paragraph.

21             I read the following in what seems to be the second paragraph in

22     your language.  It reads:

23             "The SJB was given the task of securing the facility with

24     employees of the active and reserve forces of the police.  Banja Luka CSB

25     and the Banja Luka Corps Command were informed about the capture of

Page 37402

 1     persons and were actively involved in the solution of the situation.

 2     Mixed operations teams were set up, composed of representatives of

 3     national, public, and military security services, whose task it was to

 4     carry out operative processing of all the prisoners and to determine the

 5     degree of their personal responsibility in the armed conflict."

 6             Could you tell us anything about these mixed operations where

 7     military security was involved to carry out the operative processing?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond now?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, specifically as

11     for the processing of these persons who came to these reception camps, I

12     don't know, except for Colonel Majstorovic, that any of the members of

13     the army were among these persons who were in charge of these operative

14     checks.  These operative checks, in my view, involved, first and

15     foremost, the activities of these persons, whether -- whether they had

16     taken part in fighting, whether they --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm not primarily interested to hear what

18     exactly the checks were about.  Do you know where these combined teams,

19     including military secret services, were doing this check?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Colonel

21     Majstorovic was in that camp, Omarska, just in Omarska.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because in your earlier answers it transpired,

23     more or less, that the army had nothing to do what happened in the camp;

24     whereas I now understand that -- from this document that mixed operation

25     teams were working in those camps, including military security services.

Page 37403

 1     Is that something you can confirm or don't you know?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, I found out - later on -

 3     that Colonel Majstorovic was involved in these checks.  I don't know

 4     whether someone from the military organisation that -- decided he should

 5     be there or whether this was done specifically by the town of Prijedor

 6     or, rather, the police, the SUP of Prijedor.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But "mixed operations teams" suggests that

 8     military and civilian or police authorities were working together in a

 9     team formation.  Do you know anything about that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just present some

11     assumptions.  I personally do not know --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we're not interested in assumptions.  If

13     you know anything, tell us; if you don't know, tell us that you don't.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I have just one more document.  It's 65 ter 11336.

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Mr. Lukic, we don't have the

18     document, the document with us.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I will read then.  We need the second page in

20     B/C/S, and we are on the correct page in English.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] General, this is a dispatch from the SJB

22     Prijedor, that is to say, the public security station of Prijedor, that

23     is to say, the police.  What is written here is as follows.  This was

24     sent to the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Army

25     of the Serbian Republic of BH, and the Banja Luka CSB.  I quote:

Page 37404

 1             "We hereby inform you that, at a meeting held on the 24th of

 2     July, 1992, the War Presidency of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly adopted

 3     a decision ... pursuant to which the reserve police force presently

 4     employed should be greatly reduced and that the security for the

 5     Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska Reception Centres be provided by the

 6     army.  The deadline for the implementation of this decision was fixed for

 7     the 31st of July, 1992.

 8             "The army refused to assume security duties at the centres, for

 9     which our station supplies a staff of 300 police officers every day.

10             "Therefore, we hereby inform you that we are not in a position to

11     implement the above-mentioned decision on the reduction of the reserve

12     police force as long as the army does not resume its duties in accordance

13     with arrangements and decisions previously made."

14             "Signed by the chief the security station, Simo Drljaca."

15             General, General Kelecevic, what do you know about this?  Well,

16     if you do know anything.  When did the army take over these activities?

17     Did it play any role in these activities after the 1st of August, 1992,

18     when Simo Drljaca wrote this dispatch?

19        A.   What I know is the following.  Well, I'm saying this in terms of

20     the importance of the content, not the specific document, because I see

21     the time here, the 24th of July.  That is when the break through the

22     corridor is starting.  Now I, as Chief of Staff, for me, to find out

23     about this, there is no way I can find out because my activity was

24     exclusively focused on a very, very important operation in that period.

25     But later, I was in a position to find out from the reports of officers.

Page 37405

 1     So I personally do not know about this, but I know this much:  That after

 2     the order of President Karadzic, the army did their job.

 3        Q.   What is it that you are referring to now when you say "after the

 4     order of President Karadzic, the army did their job"?  What is the

 5     time-frame and what was the job?

 6        A.   The month of August.  Was it the 10th or something like that?  As

 7     far as I remember, August.  And then these prisoners who, I mean, in some

 8     way -- I mean, well, they were examined and all of that, and some were

 9     supposed to be transferred to the area of the Manjaca camp.

10        Q.   Thank you, General.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this document

12     into evidence.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I take it, given the witness's comment that he

14     doesn't know anything about it, that it's being tender from the bar

15     table; is that right?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Or at least through this witness, although the

17     witness cannot say anything, but it's related to his testimony.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I think that's how the Chamber has generally

19     articulated the text for bar tabling documents through a witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but it has been criticised many, many times by

21     the Defence and I adjusted my language now and then.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I -- but I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you confirm that it's tendered in

24     relation to the witness's evidence, not because the witness could tell us

25     anything specific about this document.

Page 37406

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  On the understanding that the Defence is relying on

 4     that same approach, we have no objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I must admit - and this is just an

 6     observation - that I'm a bit confused because the document is about

 7     security services in Keraterm, Trnopolje and Omarska; whereas the answer

 8     of the witness dealt not with security aspects of those camps but rather

 9     with what he learned later on how and when and why prisoners were

10     transferred to other camps.  I leave it to that.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be assigned Exhibit Number

13     D1111.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We have

17     thus completed the redirect of this witness.

18        Q.   General Kelecevic, thank you for having answered our questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  Before I start, I am going to

22     request what's left of the witness's notes, and I'd just inquire with the

23     Registry whether there's a technical way for it to be, for instance,

24     scanned and sent to us.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the first question was whether the witness was

Page 37407

 1     willing to share it with you.

 2             Witness, although torn apart, from what we can see here, it's

 3     still on the desk.  Do you have any problems in sharing what you wrote

 4     down with the Prosecution?

 5             You're pointing at them.  Is that you have no problems in sharing

 6     it?  In which case, the Registrar at the far end of the videolink will

 7     take custody of your notes.  But I would first like to know whether you

 8     have any problems in sharing it.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no problem whatsoever.  If

10     you have a person of confidence here, then that person can come and take

11     this straight away, and I don't mind at all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, our person of confidence is the Registrar at

13     the far end of the videolink.  Could you take custody of the --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then, let the gentleman --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the Registrar at the far end side of the

16     videolink take custody of the notes which were torn apart by the witness

17     and bring them to The Hague.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, that'll be done.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, is it that you wanted immediately to

21     have that scan or --

22             MR. TRALDI:  I think --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you wish the Chamber to scan the document

24     immediately?

25             MR. TRALDI:  If it's possible in the field office, then I'd

Page 37408

 1     request that, just so I can determine quickly and resolve whether it's

 2     necessary to have any questions asked of the witness about it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It may take until after the break before have you

 4     it, but Mr. Registrar informs me that they'll do their utmost best to

 5     have it scanned.  Of course, first, I see Mr. Registrar at the far end is

 6     already recomposing the original order of the torn-apart pieces.

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, it will take me a bit to put

 8     this together, but I can have it scanned and e-mail it to Mr. Traldi.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we'll see then -- and then not only to

10     Mr. Traldi but then also to Mr. Lukic, of course.  The Registry is --

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] And may I just add Your Honours,

12     the witness made notes from yesterday and the day before but he does not

13     have it with him so ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well --

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Microphone not activated]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's leave it to the notes of today and let's see

17     what we can achieve if Mr. Traldi is that much interested to look at

18     them.

19             Mr. Traldi, any further questions.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

21                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

22        Q.   Sir, I want to pick up where you left off a moment ago.  During

23     cross-examination, you testified that you did not know whether

24     Colonel Majstorovic was at Omarska, and that's at transcript page 37265

25     on Tuesday.  Today at temporary transcript page 30, you testified that:

Page 37409

 1             "As far as I know, Colonel Majstorovic was in that camp,

 2     Omarska."

 3             Did you learn this in the last two days?

 4        A.   No.  I found out from Glas or some other Banja Luka newspaper

 5     about the Crisis Staff, et cetera, and that Colonel Majstorovic was on

 6     that Crisis Staff, and that surprised me quite a bit at the time.  And

 7     the question in my mind was who appointed him to be there on the Crisis

 8     Staff when I know the position of the commander that the command does not

 9     accept that military personnel should be on these Crisis Staffs.  So I

10     found out that he was a member of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor from - now

11     was it Glas or Nezavisne Novine, I cannot tell you exactly which

12     newspaper.

13        Q.   Sir, you just testified now, first, first, you testified that

14     Colonel Majstorovic was on the Crisis Staff, I'm going to return to that

15     point in a moment.  But, first, my question had been:  When did you learn

16     that he was at Omarska, and I'll add, participating in overseeing the

17     teams of interrogators?  When did you learn that?

18        A.   Well, I learned that maybe after the war.  Let's be clear on

19     this.  At that time I did not find out that Majstorovic was a member of

20     the Crisis Staff either.

21        Q.   And, sir, your testimony on Tuesday that did you not know on

22     Tuesday when I asked you the question whether he was at Omarska, that was

23     false testimony; right?

24        A.   No, I don't know that he was at the Omarska facility.  And I

25     never claimed any such thing.  I don't know whether he was there.  I was

Page 37410

 1     not checking on them where they were because that's not for me to do.

 2     That is specifically up to Stevo Bogojevic, Colonel Bogojevic, his

 3     superior officer.

 4        Q.   I'll leave that point aside.  The other portion of your answer --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, Mr. Traldi.

 6             Witness, I'd like to read to you part of your testimony today.  I

 7     asked you about combined teams, including military security services,

 8     where they were doing these checks.  You said:

 9             "As far as I know, Colonel Majstorovic was in that camp, Omarska,

10     just in Omarska."

11             That's why Mr. Traldi did put to you that you gave evidence today

12     which is not the same as you gave two days ago.

13             Any comment where you again say now that you didn't know that he

14     was in Omarska whereas earlier today you told, as far as you know, "he

15     was in that camp, Omarska, just in Omarska."

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the question is about this

17     combined, or whatever you call it, Crisis Staff, I just knew about

18     Majstorovic, that he was on that staff.  And I'm saying that with full

19     responsibility.  I'm telling you how it was that I found out.  It's not

20     from military reports or that somebody asked for my approval that he

21     should be there -- oh, all right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness, do you have an explanation as to

23     why you said earlier today that he was in Omarska, just in Omarska?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say.  I mean, my

25     assessment is -- well, it was said that most of these people, I mean,

Page 37411

 1     from Keraterm or, rather, from -- I mean, yeah, Keraterm were transferred

 2     to Omarska and -- I don't know.  Somebody said that some witness said

 3     earlier that Colonel Majstorovic investigated or, rather, interrogated

 4     him and that he insisted -- well, I know Majstorovic personally, and then

 5     I assumed that he was in Omarska.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When that question was put to you, you said he was

 7     not in Omarska.  Today, not solicited in any way specifically about the

 8     whereabouts of Colonel Majstorovic, you spontaneously told us that he was

 9     in that camp, Omarska, just Omarska.

10             I have not heard any comment on what I asked you, neither an

11     explanation.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   As to the second part of that answer, sir, you claimed, even

15     though you had not been asked about Crisis Staffs, that --

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Sir --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't interrupt Mr. Traldi when he puts a

19     question to you.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Sir, you claimed, even though you had not been asked about Crisis

22     Staffs, that the corps command did not accept that military officers be

23     on Crisis Staffs.  As you testified earlier this week, General Talic was

24     a member of the ARK Crisis Staff.  Your evidence about this is not the

25     truth either, is it?

Page 37412

 1        A.   I would rather not discuss my commander and whether he had the

 2     right to do something or not.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, was he on the ARK Crisis Staff,

 4     General Talic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he was a member

 6     of the Crisis Staff.  He only went there when they had things to discuss

 7     about the VRS.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Next, sir, I want to turn to your evidence about command posts.

12             When you went to the 1KK command post in the corridor, one of the

13     officers who remained in Banja Luka was Colonel Milutin Vukelic; right?

14        A.   He was from the political and legal sector.  I don't know if he

15     stayed in Banja Luka or went to some other units.  That's something I

16     can't say.  One cannot say that he was only in Banja Luka.  He was inside

17     the area of responsibility of the corps.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32716, page 40.

19        Q.   Now, this is a portion of the OTP interview of Colonel Vukelic.

20     He's asked towards the top of the page and I'll read it slowly because

21     it's only in English:

22             "Okay, Colonel.  And how many times did General Talic visit the

23     Manjaca camp?"

24             He answers:

25             "I don't know.  But the command post for the corps was there for

Page 37413

 1     a while."

 2             He's asked:

 3             "The command post for the 1st Krajina Corps was stationed at

 4     Manjaca camp?"

 5             And he answers:

 6             "Not at the camp.  The camp were renovated stables for animals.

 7     Those were renovated for the prison.  And there was a command post for a

 8     unit there, which was then used for the command of the 1st Krajina

 9     Corps."

10             And he's asked:

11             "And did you see General Talic at this command post at Manjaca?"

12             And he answers:

13             "Of course, I saw him there."

14             Now, you testified that the 1st Krajina Corps command post was

15     not fully operational on re-examination.  The truth is the 1st Krajina

16     Corps command post at Manjaca operated, and General Talic visited it;

17     right?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  May I?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I'm very cautious now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  "Objection" is not sufficient.  You should

24     say what the objection is based, without giving evidence yourself.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Can the General remove his headphones.

Page 37414

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Headphones.

 2             Could you please take off your headphones.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We'll find in the transcript that in 1995 this

 5     gentleman at least claimed that way.  In 1995, this command post was

 6     fully operational when the western municipalities of Republika Srpska

 7     were under attack and the complete command post was moved in 1995 to this

 8     area.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I agree and I'll rephrase my description of his

10     evidence if it suits Mr. Lukic that he said --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

12             MR. TRALDI:  -- in 1992 it was not operational.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But then we should know -- I'm sorry.  Can I?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you have brought to the attention of

15     Mr. Traldi something he could include in his question.  He has offered to

16     rephrase it.  If there's any other matter you would like to bring to his

17     attention which might cause him to even further rephrase the question,

18     you have an opportunity to do so.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Because in this transcript

20     do we see about which period this gentleman is talking about.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That is clearly the point you are making.

22             Mr. Traldi.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before do you so, Mr. Traldi.  I just wanted to

24     say to Mr. Lukic, in any case, whatever you have told us is no basis for

25     an objection.  If you just make a note of that.  It's different evidence.

Page 37415

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with my colleague, Mr. Lukic.  This

 2     is not an objection but this is a gentle -- gently presented information

 3     to Mr. Traldi so as to assist him in avoiding any errors.

 4             Mr. Traldi, that is how I understand it.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I understood it the same way and appreciated it.

 6     Regarding the time-frame referred to in this portion of Colonel Vukelic's

 7     interview --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that no confusion should arise.  That's --

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  And just to make clear why our position is

10     it's clear they're talking about 1992.  It's in the context of

11     discussions of visits by General Talic to the detention camp there.  It's

12     in the context of the discussion of the Mazowiecki visit which is in

13     August 1992.  That's mentioned at the top of the page.  And it's in the

14     context of the discussion of visiting Popovic, the commander during 1992

15     of the camp, that we see lower down on the page.

16             That's the basis for my putting that this refers to 1992.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then now you'll rephrase the question as

18     you offered, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, could the witness put his earphones on

21     again.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir -- sir, the question that I'll put to you is, you'd testified

25     that the Manjaca forward command post, the Manjaca command post of the

Page 37416

 1     1st Krajina Corps was not operational in 1992.  The truth is, as Colonel

 2     Vukelic stated here, that it was working, that General Talic visited it,

 3     and also visited Manjaca camp; right?

 4        A.   Please, in order to provide a full answer, I cannot answer it by

 5     a simple yes or no.  In the area of responsibility of the corps, there

 6     were eight command posts.  All of them could be used, if needed, in order

 7     to successfully control the units.  This included the command post at

 8     Manjaca.  We, from the army, call it this way:  The basic command post,

 9     the forward command post, the fake command post, and so on and so forth.

10             So I was trying to recollect.  I think there were eight command

11     posts in different areas.  Wherever the commander is, these posts could

12     make sure that communication means were at his disposal to communicate

13     with the units.  He can even use the command post of an operational unit

14     in order to successfully manage his units.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I think we're at what would be the

16     time for the break.  I'd say I have just a few minutes left, pending

17     whether I have any questions about the notes that I'm hoping we'll

18     receive during the break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it's just a few minutes.  You know, a few

20     minutes before the break usually are shorter than a few minutes after a

21     break, Mr. Traldi, so I'll keep to you that for after the break.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I can say it's eight questions, though it may be

23     necessary to follow up on some of them, so less than ten minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Less than ten minutes.  That's accepted.

25             Witness, we'd like to see you back after the break.  We'll take a

Page 37417

 1     break until 10 minutes past midday.

 2                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, let's check again whether the

 7     videolink is functioning well.

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can see and

 9     hear you clearly.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  The same is true for this side of the

11     videolink.

12             Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.  Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And before I start, just

14     to thank the Registry for their assistance in transmitting that material

15     so quickly.

16             Can we have P151.  And I'll be looking for page 2 in the

17     English, 3 in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Now, this is a 1st Krajina Corps report from the end of May 1992.

19     In the context of Mr. Lukic's questions about Muslims and Croats serving

20     in the VRS, I'd direct your attention to point 5b, and we see in the

21     first line down that:

22             "After the actions in Kozarac, Kljuc, and Sanski Most, some

23     conscripts of Muslim nationality have asked to be released from their

24     [sic] units.  They express their dissatisfaction with the massive

25     destruction of their towns."

Page 37418

 1             You were also aware, weren't you, that non-Serbs conscripted into

 2     the VRS were not comfortable remaining because of the destruction it was

 3     inflicting on their communities?

 4        A.   I knew that in the units of the VRS there were both Muslim and

 5     Croat soldiers and officers.

 6        Q.   Sir, answer the question.  You knew that the massive destruction

 7     that the VRS was inflicting on their communities was why some of them

 8     were uncomfortable remaining; right?

 9        A.   I knew about destruction for the most part in Kozarac where there

10     was combat.  It is normal that in the course of such activities that

11     covered two or three days, although I wasn't present, that there must

12     have been some destruction to facilities and buildings in the area.

13        Q.   Sir, you were aware of massive destruction of Muslim and Croat

14     villages, just like the rest of the corps command and the Main Staff once

15     they received this report; right?

16        A.   I knew about the destruction of a certain part.

17        Q.   And you knew, too, that other Muslims and Croats were dismissed

18     pursuant to orders by General Mladic and General Talic from the VRS;

19     right?  Yes or no?

20        A.   They were not dismissed.  They were simply sent to other

21     commands.  I would say it was done with a view to resolving their status.

22     They were not kicked out of the units.

23        Q.   They were sent to Belgrade to -- sir, they were sent to Belgrade

24     to resolve their status; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37419

 1        Q.   And yesterday Mr. Lukic asked you the following question:

 2             "As far as you know - and you spent the war there - was the plan

 3     to occupy territory or hold on to territory which was not considered

 4     Serbian?"

 5             And you answered:

 6             "No such plan existed.  The plan was, as I said, to maintain the

 7     territory where the Serbs were in the majority."

 8             I have a few simple questions for you about this.  Prijedor,

 9     Sanski Most, and Kotor Varos, which we've discussed, were all

10     Serb-minority municipalities in 1991; right?

11        A.   There were fewer Serbs than Muslims living there, yes.

12        Q.   And after the operations by the 1st Krajina Corps, they were all

13     controlled by the Serbs and had overwhelmingly Serb populations; right?

14        A.   They were dominant because Muslims left many of those parts, and

15     they went to where they felt safer and where they could be exchanged.

16        Q.   You testified this morning that there was no pressure on those

17     people who were exchanged.  Those people whose towns had been massively

18     destroyed, obviously they had no choice but to go somewhere else; right?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   And regarding -- regarding your evidence, again, that there was

21     no -- that the plan was to maintain the territory where the Serbs were in

22     the majority, there's evidence in this trial that by the end of 1992, the

23     VRS had control of 70 per cent or so of the territory of Bosnia.  Is it

24     your position that that was all Serb territory?

25        A.   I do not assert that.  I know the size held by the 1st Corps.

Page 37420

 1     I'm not aware of the situation in the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Yes or no:  It's your position that the 70 per cent of the

 3     territory of Bosnia the VRS controlled at the end of 1992 was Serb

 4     territory?

 5        A.   I don't think it was Serbian because it was still highly

 6     debatable whether others should be involved in determining whose

 7     territory it was supposed to be.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my questions for this

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one follow-up question for the witness.  But

11     first Judge Moloto has one.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, at page 46, you were asked about the

14     dismissal of non-Serb soldiers from the VRS by Mr. Talic and Mr. Mladic,

15     and you said they were sent to other commands.

16             Mr. Traldi said to you:

17             "They were sent to Belgrade -- sir, they were sent to Belgrade to

18     resolve their status; right?"

19             You said:  "Yes."

20             I just want to follow up on that one.  Their status in Belgrade

21     was being resolved within the VJ, isn't it so?

22        A.   It was resolved in Belgrade the way it was decided because there

23     were centres in charge of personnel that kept the officers of the VRS on

24     their registers.  So in other words, their status was supposed to be

25     resolved in Yugoslavia, in order to determine whether some of them have

Page 37421

 1     met the necessary conditions to be retired or that something else be done

 2     with them.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You haven't answered my question.  They were

 4     resolved in -- because you said there were personnel centres, and it was

 5     personnel centre number 30 into which they were located which was a VJ

 6     unit, isn't it so?

 7        A.   It was a command, rather than a unit, which dealt with the issue

 8     of status --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying -- let me ask you a question.  Are

10     you saying the 30th Personnel Centre was a unit of the VRS?  Is that your

11     position?

12        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean part of --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi suggested to you that these soldiers

14     were dismissed from the VRS.  You said:  No, they were not dismissed.

15     They were sent to other commands.  I'm saying to you, that command that

16     you're saying they were sent to in Belgrade is the 30th Personnel Centre

17     and I'm suggesting to that that is a VJ unit, not a VRS unit.  So if

18     they're there, it means they have left the VRS.  Do you agree with that?

19        A.   I do not because --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

21        A.   Very well.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question for you.  You were asked about

24     maintaining areas which were populated by a Serb majority.  Then

25     Mr. Traldi asked you about a few municipalities where you said that there

Page 37422

 1     was a Serb minority.  Let me just check which ones they were.  I think it

 2     was Prijedor -- let me just find it.

 3        A.   Sanski Most, Kotor Varos.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think a third one was mentioned as well.

 5             Now, often in answers and in documents we find reference to

 6     "loyal non-Serbs."  What is the basis for claiming loyalty from non-Serbs

 7     where power had been taken over in municipalities in which the Serbs were

 8     in a minority, why would the majority be loyal and what's the basis for

 9     such a loyalty claim, if power was taken over by the Serbs?

10        A.   Determining whether someone was loyal was the basis for those

11     citizens, i.e., civilians, to decide whether they were willing to

12     implement the laws and policies of the authorities then in power.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, I do understand what loyalty means.

14     But on what was the claim that they should be loyal where power had been

15     taken over by a minority in those municipalities, on what was that claim

16     based?  Or just on having taken over power forcefully?

17        A.   I personally think it was their choice to stay freely because

18     they believed that they will continue being safe in their homes, with the

19     neighbours with whom they used to be on good terms previously, rather

20     than to change their place of residence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I established that you didn't answer my

22     question.  I gave it two tries.  I have no further questions for you.

23             Then we -- have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for

24     further questions?  If not, Mr. Kelecevic --

25             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

Page 37423

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.  If there's no objection to it, I've gotten

 2     part of the translation of the notes that have been sent to me that the

 3     witness took and I would have one question based on those.  If that's

 4     agreeable.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you shared the notes with the Defence?

 6             MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I see Mr. Lukic is nodding yes.

 8             Please -- one more question by Mr. Traldi, Mr. Kelecevic.

 9                      Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

10        Q.   Sir, under a reference to the document coming from Mr. Drljaca,

11     what I understand to be a reference to that document that Mr. Lukic

12     showed you, I'm told you have written, among other things:

13             "Admission centre, they did not have accommodation and food."

14             Which was the centre about which you -- which was the camp about

15     which you wrote they did not have accommodation and food?

16        A.   I noted down what you read out to me.  For the most part it had

17     to do with Trnopolje and that there was a need to have them moved.  I

18     wrote down Drljaca's name because I found it difficult to remember that

19     name and I know that he had a very important role when it involved the

20     decision-making process by civilian authorities.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the person -- the extent of

23     the information I have.

24             MR. TRALDI:  That was the only question I had, Your Honours.

25     Thank you.

Page 37424

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Traldi, the proper question would have

 2     been in what context he wrote that down.  Because it came immediately to

 3     my mind, having heard your questions, that it may well be, which is quite

 4     normal for a witness, to jot down some words which remind him of what the

 5     question exactly was and I think that should have been more transparent

 6     in your question.

 7             Mr. Kelecevic, this concludes your evidence.  I'd like to thank

 8     you very much for coming to the videolink location and to testify, and I

 9     wish you a safe return home again.

10             You are excused.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

12     Good-bye.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can close down the videolink.

14                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I am.  A couple of remaining housekeeping matters

17     from the witness's testimony.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

19             MR. TRALDI:  In one document there was a discussion of whether a

20     village named was Baltina or Bastina.  We've checked P7106, which is the

21     excerpt from the census for Kotor Varos municipality, there is a Bastina

22     listed and not a Baltina.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least it's clear now, which was not clear

24     from the document yet, that it is a location.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah.

Page 37425

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Lukic, if you have any better location --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour, we do not.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Next, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Regarding P7477 MFI, that's the letter from Bishop

 5     Komarica.  The book from which it is taken is described in its text by

 6     the editor as containing "a selection of documents from the Bishop of

 7     Banja Luka, Monsignor Dr. Franjo Komarica and the Bishopric in Banja Luka

 8     written during the war from 1991 to 1995.  There are many pastoral

 9     letters, appeals, interventions, reports, and denials," and P7477 MFI is

10     part of a long collection of such that is included in that book.

11             Third housekeeping matter --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first, if it is MFI'd, we have -- the reason

13     was that we asked for further information.

14             MR. TRALDI:  That's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any objection against P7477?

16             MR. LUKIC:  We just now heard that it's a longer selection from

17     this book.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I did understand that the selection is more than

19     just this document.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Let me rephrase slightly for precision.

21             The book includes a long collection of such correspondence.

22     P7477 MFI is only the one that I showed the witness.

23             MR. LUKIC:  We do not object to the admission of this document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P7477 is admitted into evidence.

25             Third issue, Mr. Traldi.

Page 37426

 1             MR. TRALDI:  We're willing to agree that Spiro Nikovic has only

 2     one N.

 3             And fourth and finally, as a housekeeping matter, if I can just

 4     be excused, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused, Mr. Traldi.

 6             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be Mr. Salipur?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The notes the previous witness wrote are now in the

13     custody of the -- of the Registry although copies have been provided to

14     the parties.  Should they be kept or could they be ...

15             MR. LUKIC:  I don't see any probational value.  I don't know, the

16     Prosecution --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

18             MR. LUKIC:  -- maybe does not share my view.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.  They have been destroyed once.  Would

20     we destroy them again?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I would think not.  Once we are in possession of

22     those it's -- I mean, it's difficult, I agree, to imagine how they may be

23     used in future.  But as a matter of procedure, having received them, they

24     were referred to in the examination to a minor extent, it seems more

25     prudent to hang on to them.  But, again, from a practical point of view,

Page 37427

 1     I don't think it is going to have much impact one way or another.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If we're talking about the original, Mr. Lukic,

 4     Mr. Tieger, you've both received copies.  If you could agree on that

 5     these copies are original copies and where the original -- it's pretty

 6     clear that we see even on the video that the witness is tearing them

 7     apart.  So I have great difficulties in imagining that would ever be any

 8     dispute about the authenticity of your copies being a truthful copy of

 9     the original.  And I think, under those circumstances, the -- there's no

10     need to keep them for the Registry.  So they can be torn apart again.

11             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, before the witness sits down --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic waived his right to be here during

14     procedural matters, and we will provide Your Honours with the written

15     statement.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Mr. Mladic is now present where you

17     pronounced those words so -- the witness can be escorted in the

18     courtroom.  Mr. ... we'll then receive later the written confirmation.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Salipur.  Would you please

21     stand.

22             Mr. Salipur, before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

23     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

24     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 37428

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO SALIPUR

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 5             Mr. Salipur, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You

 6     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

 7     Mr. Mladic.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

10                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Salipur.

12        A.   Good day to you, too.

13        Q.   As is customary, I would like to ask you to slowly give us your

14     name and surname.

15        A.   My name is Zdravko Salipur.

16        Q.   Mr. Salipur, at one point in time, did you give Mr. Karadzic's

17     Defence a statement in writing, and did you answer the questions that

18     were put to you then?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

21     see 65 ter 1D04065 in e-court.

22        Q.   Mr. Salipur, at one point in time, you will see before you on

23     that screen a document.

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

Page 37429

 1     the last page of this document.

 2        Q.   Mr. Salipur, what you saw on this first and last page, is that

 3     the document that I asked you about a moment ago?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, that's the document.  And this is my very own signature

 5     in my own hand, and I wrote the date too.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I would just like to ask you a few things.  Would you

 7     please take a look at the first page of this document.  Let us focus on

 8     paragraph 1.

 9             Mr. Salipur, before appearing in this courtroom, during the

10     proofing did you indicate to me that, in the meantime, your work status

11     has been changed and that in line 4 in B/C/S, and in lines 4 and 5 in the

12     English statement, it says that you are currently employed in the Rad

13     public utilities enterprise in East Novo Sarajevo.  You informed me that

14     in the meantime you are retired and that this means that the correct

15     information today is that you are a pensioner.

16        A.   Yes.  From the 1st of January, 2014, I officially ended my career

17     and retired.  Everything else is the same, including my address.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please a look at

20     paragraph 31 of your statement.

21        Q.   Paragraph 31 of your statement, the penultimate line in B/C/S and

22     the third line from the bottom in the English version.  You told me that

23     there was a typo there.  The man whose name you mentioned is not Ljubo

24     Obradovic.  Rather, his name is Budo Obradovic.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I don't know how come this mistake

Page 37430

 1     happened.  I knew the man personally.  His name was Budo Obradovic.

 2        Q.   Now that you've made these two technical corrections to your

 3     statement, if I were to put the same questions to you today, to the best

 4     of your knowledge and to the best of your recollection, now that you've

 5     taken the solemn declaration in this courtroom, would you fully stand by

 6     the statement that is before us?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  Now, today, and in 100 years, if need be.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10     tender Mr. Zdravko Salipur's statement into evidence, 65 ter 1D04065.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Prosecution, any objections?

12             MR. FILE:  No objections, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number D1112.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Also, I would like to tender

18     four documents mentioned in this statement.  According to 65 ter, they

19     are marked 03605, 03651, 18486, and 03290.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

21             MR. FILE:  No objections, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 03605 receives number?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number 1113.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             And that's a D number.

Page 37431

 1             65 ter 03651?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number D1114.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 4             65 ter 18486?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number D1115.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             65 ter 03290?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Has already been admitted as Exhibit Number

 9     P6524, admitted on 22nd May 2014.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, no need to further decide upon it.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to read out the

14     summary of Witness Zdravko Salipur's statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you intend to read a short summary.

16     Please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Zdravko Salipur is a

18     pre-war inhabitant of Sarajevo and he will testify about the situation in

19     Sarajevo prior to the breakout of the war, about the circumstances and

20     conditions in the city before the elections of 1990, about the founding

21     of the SDS and about his political involvement with the SDS Municipal

22     Board in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  He will also speak about the

23     internal organisation of SDS in Novo Sarajevo and the establishment and

24     tasks of the Crisis Staff, and also about the reasons behind the

25     establishing of the Serb Municipal Assemblies in the territory of the

Page 37432

 1     city of Sarajevo and about the work of the War Presidency in that area.

 2             He will explain these documents concerning the structure and --

 3     organisation and documentation of Crisis Staffs in the area of

 4     Novo Sarajevo and SDS organisations.  Also the witness will testify about

 5     the arming of Muslims and Croats in the territory of the municipality of

 6     Novo Sarajevo and the existence of Crisis Staffs and paramilitary units

 7     established by the Muslim and Croat leaderships.

 8             This witness shall speak about what happened in a part of

 9     Sarajevo called Pofalici.  Up until he was wounded and when the clashes

10     took place in this area in May 1992 and upon his return from medical

11     treatment in October 1992, he will speak about his experience and the

12     attitude taken towards the civilian population, because he worked on

13     humanitarian affairs through the Red Cross and in the area of Grbavica.

14             Finally, he will speak about the shelling and sniping against

15     this area that came from the territory that was under BH army control and

16     about the freedom of movement in this area during the war.  He explains

17     his position and the sources of his knowledge as to how the authorities

18     functioned in the territory of Grbavica.

19             This was a brief summary of his testimony.  And with your leave,

20     Your Honours, I would just like to put a few questions to the witness in

21     order to clarify his statement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

24     paragraph 7 of the statement which is now D1112.

25        Q.   Mr. Salipur, in your statement here, you are commenting upon a

Page 37433

 1     document on the establishment of the Serb municipality of Novo Sarajevo

 2     and you are referring to Article 3 of this document that has now been

 3     admitted into evidence in this case and its number is D1114.  I would

 4     just like to ask you to explain the following to the Trial Chamber.  The

 5     Serb municipality of Novo Sarajevo founded in this way, did it function,

 6     did it carry out its duties on the ground until the conflict broke out in

 7     Sarajevo?

 8             Please go ahead.

 9        A.   I remember that document full well, the one that's mentioned in

10     my statement, and it's true that on this day this so-called assembly was

11     held, but it was not translated into practice.  It was just before the

12     war, perhaps a week before the war.  It can be seen that it was sort of

13     for the future, if the worst possible situation would occur.  On the

14     4th of April war broke out in Sarajevo, so during those seven days, one

15     could feel what would happen, so this was done out of caution.

16             I would like to say, as I go back to that day, that this

17     gentleman, Dr. Milivoj Prijic, it's mentioned here that he was elected as

18     president of the municipality, and Mr. Branko Radan was elected president

19     of the Executive Committee.  It wasn't on that day that they were

20     elected, at that assembly.  Only a decision was made --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think Mr. Stojanovic only asked you

22     whether it carried out its duties and I think you've answered that

23     question in the first line or the second line or the third of your

24     answer.

25             Please focus specifically on what is asked.  If we want to know

Page 37434

 1     anything more, the parties will ask or we will ask.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the sake of the record, Mr. Stojanovic, you

 4     referred to an article which is mentioned in paragraph 8 of the

 5     statement.  With a --

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With document number from the Karadzic case.

 8     This is not 1D1114, what you said, it's not correctly recorded.  It's the

 9     number P6524 which was already admitted into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please always use the numbers assigned to

11     the documents, both 65 ter and the exhibit number assigned to it, rather

12     than to refer to the Karadzic numbering.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.  So it will be

14     that way, Your Honours.  Maybe I should say that I was referring to

15     paragraph 7 of this witness's statement and indicating paragraph 7 of

16     this witness's statement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you referred to the wrong number.  You

18     referred to the Karadzic number rather than to the number assigned in

19     this case.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But in that case, you are right, Mr. Stojanovic,

21     this is D1114.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Yes, I

24     think I did the right thing.

25        Q.   Mr. Salipur, let us look at paragraph 11 of your statement,

Page 37435

 1     D1112.

 2             Please be as direct as possible and let us observe the time.

 3     This is what you say in paragraph 11 -- can you see that?

 4             "I had information about the military organisation and arming of

 5     Muslims and Croats in the area of the municipality ..."

 6             This is my question:  In view of court practice here, tell us, as

 7     directly as possible, where does this information of yours come from

 8     about the military organisation and arming of the Muslims and Croats?

 9        A.   When speaking about information, I had many information from

10     friends and neighbours who saw this directly.  I personally saw a lot as

11     well.  For example, night guards, large groups, armed.  They would come

12     during the night and leave in the morning.  So I saw some of this

13     personally and some things I found out about.

14        Q.   Who did you find this out from?

15        A.   Neighbours from Pofalici, my area, towards the hill of Hum.

16     Already in the month of February, the Patriotic League and the

17     Green Berets dug trenches, they were armed, and the Serb population could

18     not even get close.  And they saw that members of the Ministry of

19     Interior - that is to say, the police - brought weapons there during the

20     night.  They saw this themselves.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to ask for paragraph 24 of your

22     statement.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I shall

24     repeat once again now, its number is D1112.  In English, can we move to

25     the next page, please.

Page 37436

 1        Q.   Here you discuss the events in the area of Pofalici.  For the

 2     sake of precision, please tell us when this attack on your settlement

 3     occurred, that is to say, on Pofalici where you resided?

 4        A.   It occurred on the 16th of May, early in the morning, from the

 5     direction I mentioned, which is Hum hill, where those armed formations

 6     had been observed.  The attack lasted throughout the day and some 60,

 7     mostly civilians, people were killed in my settlement, including around

 8     15 women and some people older than 90, as well as many elderly people

 9     between 70 and 80.  There were many more wounded, over 200.  I was

10     wounded myself by a shell, and I was treated for five and a half months

11     and then I needed crutches for another year.  Let me just add, to this

12     day, many people who were killed that day were never found.  Their

13     bodies, that is.

14        Q.   Where did you receive information about the number of those who

15     were killed and wounded, as well as missing, the information you

16     presented here in the courtroom today?

17        A.   That day, when I was wounded, I was taken away, and I did not

18     have any idea how many people were killed and wounded in my settlement.

19     After the end of my treatment, I was interested in finding out where my

20     friends, relatives, and neighbours were so I investigated and looked for

21     the bodies.  With the assistance of the commission for tracing missing

22     persons, I went to some locations where indications existed that they had

23     been buried.  However, we did not find many of them but we did come

24     across traces indicating that they were dug up and moved elsewhere,

25     according to the information in the possession of the commission.  The

Page 37437

 1     location involved was a family graveyard in my settlement, and since I

 2     hail from that area, I know who was buried there and when, as well as in

 3     which part of the cemetery.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  After the attack in the area of Pofalici, did the

 5     Serbian civilian population remain?

 6        A.   Very few remained compared to the overall number of the people

 7     who used to live there.  Perhaps under 1 per cent.  And over the period

 8     that followed, all trace was lost of them too.  Nobody knows if they were

 9     killed or when they were killed, whether a week or a month later.

10        Q.   Bearing in mind that you lived there, what was the reason and

11     motivation behind the attack on the area of Pofalici?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File.

13             MR. FILE:  Before the witness answers, I would object to that

14     question, as there's no foundation for how the witness could know what

15     the motivation of the attack was.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you lay a foundation, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Salipur, at the time or after you returned from treatment,

19     did you gain any specific knowledge about the possible motivation and

20     reason for the attack of the Muslim forces on that part of Sarajevo?

21        A.   I understood your question fully, and I do know what the

22     motivation was.  I can provide an answer.

23             In Sarajevo, this settlement is across the town from Vrace and

24     Grbavica.  It is the only settlement on that side of the city where Serbs

25     were in the majority.  The Serb police and TO were established there in

Page 37438

 1     order to provide protection.  Someone did not like that in geographical

 2     terms.  Among the 350 Serbian houses in the settlements, there were

 3     perhaps 50 Muslim or -- and five or six Croatian households.  For the

 4     month and a half between the 4th of April and the 16th of May, they moved

 5     about freely, going into town, to work and come back.  Nobody touched

 6     them.  The only thing that there was were the check-points aimed at

 7     preventing the entry of the Patriotic League members and the

 8     Green Berets, as well as the armed forces of BiH which were created

 9     later.  Someone did not like the fact that geographically we were present

10     there.  There were reports in the media, on TV and the radio, that it was

11     the goal of us living in Pofalici, the handful of us against the entire

12     city of 600.000, to link up with the Marsal Tito barracks and then on

13     further afield to Vrace.  It was absolutely impossible to do, but someone

14     obviously didn't like us there.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I appreciate that you asked for a

17     foundation.  Whether the witness gave it is a different matter.

18             And I have another question.  The witness referred to his medical

19     treatment.

20             Witness, are you referring to paragraph 29 of your statement

21     which starts with:  "After receiving medical treatment ..."?  Is that

22     what you referred to?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was discussing the motivation for

24     the attack when I was in Pofalici and when I was wounded.  On the day of

25     my wounding --

Page 37439

 1             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, if I may be of assistance.  I believe

 2     there is a reference to the witness being wounded on May 16th in an

 3     attack in the first paragraph of his statement, at the bottom of the

 4     first paragraph.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I wondered because paragraph 29 follows

 6     immediately a few redacted paragraphs of which, of course, we do not know

 7     what's in there.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, could you assist us.  Is there any reference

 9     there to the attack there?  In the earlier -- in the

10     paragraphs immediately preceding paragraph 29, where the witness refers

11     to medical treatment, or is that -- is there nothing --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It is

13     referred to, and there's some further detail about the fighting in the

14     redacted portions in the Karadzic case.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the -- the only thing we know about the

16     attack at this moment is what we find in paragraph 1?  And all the

17     details are redacted?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] There's also one part which

19     discusses the situation preceding the fighting which is in paragraph 24,

20     and that is why I sought to lay my foundation for this question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the details about the attack, we are not

22     privy to those, are we?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that part is redacted,

24     Your Honour.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I be of assistance?

Page 37440

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, thank you.

 2             Of course, Mr. Stojanovic, if you ask further questions about

 3     that situation and of being wounded, then, of course, I wonder why we're

 4     not receiving the detailed information about the attack.  But I'll --

 5     just please move on.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] There will also be a witness to

 7     discuss this, and that is probably why it was also redacted in the

 8     Karadzic case.  In any case, there will be a follow-up.

 9        Q.   For the time being, I'd like to ask another question.  Let us

10     look at paragraph 30 of your statement.  In paragraph 30, you discuss

11     freedom of movement in the area of Vrace and Grbavica, and non-stop

12     shelling and sniping from tall buildings and other facilities controlled

13     by the Muslim forces.  Many inhabitants were killed in that way of

14     different ethnicities.

15             Please tell the Court, as directly as possible and as

16     specifically as possible, to your personal knowledge, which buildings or

17     facilities were used by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to shell and snipe

18     the area of Grbavica?

19        A.   First of all, during the war, that area was one hell to live in.

20     Grbavica was basically surrounded from three sides by the separation line

21     with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina between the army and the VRS.  As

22     regards the shelling, it was difficult to know where it was done from

23     because a shell may be sent from a kilometre or two away.  As regards the

24     shooting and sniping and hundreds of victims that were targeted in

25     Grbavica, the separation line was the Miljacka river, the length of over

Page 37441

 1     some 2 kilometres.  It was the only division between the two sides.

 2             On the Army of the BH side, there is a promenade across the river

 3     and a certain number of buildings along it where the people did not

 4     reside.  They were -- there were mostly offices and that's where the

 5     snipers were.  Most sniping took place from the roof of the Faculty of

 6     Mathematics and Natural Sciences, close to the Miljacka river, somewhere

 7     halfway along the separation line of 2 kilometres.

 8             On the eastern end, some 100 metres away, was also the building

 9     of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina which commanded the entire part of

10     town because of its height, not only Grbavica.  There was much sniping

11     from there.

12             There was also sniping from the south-west side, from the

13     building of Loris, which is the first building next to the football club

14     Zeljeznicar stadium.  However, there was one thing that could be observed

15     the best, and that was a position of the Army of BiH which was, so to

16     say, behind the back of entire Grbavica.  They had a bunker or two there.

17     They had dug a tunnel to them and engaged from there.  I saw several

18     civilians, including women, being hit in front of the building where I

19     used to live, and we know to the metre where one can move and what the

20     range was.

21             The sniping place was only about a hundred metres away from the

22     building where I lived and we could hear that one the most.  All of the

23     other shots we could hear came from a distance and it was difficult to

24     distinguish whether there was some regular shooting or sniping.  There

25     was daily shooting for four years.

Page 37442

 1        Q.   Please tell us the name of the building you have just described,

 2     as well as the area where the two bunkers were.

 3        A.   It was called Debelo Brdo.

 4        Q.   In terms of altitude, is Debelo Brdo higher than the settlement

 5     of Grbavica?

 6        A.   Yes, much higher.  It is in the direction of Mount Trebevic, at

 7     the foot of it.  However, it is close, as the crow flies, not only to the

 8     separation line along the Miljacka but to Grbavica as well.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salipur, for these clarifications.  And at this

10     moment, the Defence has no further questions for you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take break in a minute.

12             I have one very short question for you.  The source of the

13     sniping fire, is it that you heard where it came from, or did you ever

14     see snipers in those facilities you described?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you have in mind the sniping

16     shooters who were active in Grbavica or against Grbavica?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The ones you described as -- in your previous

18     answer.  Did you see them or did you hear that the sound was coming from

19     the facilities you mentioned?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was impossible to see.  If I

21     tried to see, I would be killed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, I'm not saying that you should have

23     seen it.  I'm just inquiring in what the source of your knowledge of

24     those facilities is.  And apparently if you didn't see it, you may have

25     heard that the sniper fire came from those facilities.  Is that well

Page 37443

 1     understood?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could hear them.  If I hear

 3     a shot and a woman falls down, you can see where she could have been hit

 4     from.  She could not have been hit through a building.  There must be an

 5     open area, a window, to engage.  So even a layperson could conclude, on

 6     the basis of where a victim was killed or wounded, where the sniper was.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you combined what you heard and what you did see

 8     as a result of the fire, that made you conclude where it must have come

 9     from.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there's another thing --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you've answered my question.  We take a break.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  After the break you'll be cross-examined by

16     Mr. File.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow the

17     usher.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties are urged to see whether they can manage

24     to conclude cross-examination and re-examination in this session, which

25     takes one hour.  We'd then have another close to -- after a break, we

Page 37444

 1     would have another 30 minutes to deal with procedural matters.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, or even we could consider to continue then,

 4     but -- we would then have a short pause in order to allow Mr. Mladic to

 5     leave the courtroom because he has decided that he would waive his right

 6     to be present.  So perhaps we would continue without a further break.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be convenient for us,

 8     Your Honours, because we also have a scheduled call on General Mladic.

 9     So as far as we are concerned, we can proceed immediately after the

10     examination of this witness ends.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Salipur, may I urge you to focus your answer on

13     the question, that is, not to go beyond what you are asked.  Just focus

14     on that.  Mr. File will now cross-examine you.  Mr. File is counsel for

15     the Prosecution.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. File:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   We heard at temporary transcript page 55 today that the witness

22     statement that you've submitted in this case was the identical witness

23     statement that you gave as evidence when you testified in the Karadzic

24     case here at the ICTY.  When you testified in the Karadzic case on the

25     17th and 18th of December, 2012, you told the truth; correct?

Page 37445

 1        A.   Yes, 100 per cent.

 2        Q.   And do you still stand by that testimony today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I'm going to read a quotation from your statement and then a

 5     quotation from your Karadzic live testimony and then I will ask you a

 6     question about it.

 7             So let's look at paragraph 8 of your statement, which is D1112.

 8     In that paragraph you say:

 9             "Crisis Staffs were formed in Serbian municipalities in

10     accordance with the instructions of the government of the Serbian

11     Republic of BH, and this was also done in the Serbian municipality of

12     Novo Sarajevo."

13             One sentence later you say that:

14             "The Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo

15     was formed in accordance with an excerpt from the above instructions."

16             Those instructions are one of your associated exhibits, D1115,

17     and they are dated on page 2 of that document as 26 April 1992.

18             MR. FILE:  Now could I please have 65 ter number 32830, please.

19     And if we could go to e-court page 14.

20        Q.   This is your testimony in the Karadzic case from the 18th of

21     December, 2012, at transcript page 31640, and there, after having been

22     shown several Crisis Staff documents dating all the way back to

23     December 1991, you were asked:

24             "You must accept, yes or no, that the SDS did establish the

25     Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo municipality at least as early as

Page 37446

 1     December 1991?  Yes or no."

 2             Your answer was:

 3             "Well, yes, but in the context that I've mentioned in my answers,

 4     all of my answers, have a look at one of the earlier documents where it

 5     says that we have a co-ordinator for contact with other Crisis Staffs."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should slow down when you read.

 7             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   So my question for you is:  Isn't it true that your statement is

 9     wrong as to the time when a Crisis Staff was first formed in

10     Novo Sarajevo?  This was pointed out to you on cross-examination in 2012

11     but yet you failed to make any corrections or modifications to your

12     statement here to account for this.

13        A.   Oh, I don't know.  I don't have that document shown here, the one

14     that you're referring to in order to jog my memory.  As far as I can

15     remember, everything is the way I said in my statement, and the documents

16     that were shown to me then, I gave the right answers to all of that in

17     the record.  The only thing that is mentioned is that in the Crisis Staff

18     there were two men who were in charge of negotiating with the staffs of

19     the other political parties, which meant that what was sought was the

20     best possible solution already in that situation, before the war.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let's keep matters short.  Mr. File puts to

22     you that in your statement you say that on the 26th of April the Crisis

23     Staff was formed and that in your Karadzic testimony you said that it was

24     formed as early as December 1991.

25             That's what is put to you.  Which of the two is accurate?

Page 37447

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, the end of 1991.

 2     On the 5th of April there was already a war going on.  I mean ... I mean,

 3     if we're talking about the 25th of April, 1992, the war was already under

 4     way and --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you don't have to explain why.  Just, you

 6     say, it's 1991, which is not what is found in your statement.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. FILE:

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'd like that ask you some questions about the

10     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff.  Your Crisis Staff received instructions on

11     activity from the SDS Main Board; correct?

12        A.   First the Crisis Staff had to be established, and for it to be

13     established, there were instructions that were received and the

14     instructions came from the government.  Actually, from this -- this

15     Main Board of the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party, and then that went to

16     the lower organs, the municipal organs, and the Municipal Board.  On the

17     basis of these instructions establish the Crisis Staff, because the

18     organisation had several members ...

19        Q.   In your testimony in the Karadzic case, you were asked whether

20     you personally participated in the implementation of instructions

21     received from the SDS Main Board in December 1991.  And your answer was:

22             "Yes, I did participate," and then you went on to emphasise that

23     you were an elected member of the municipal assembly.  That was at T31628

24     in the Karadzic case.

25             Do you stand by that testimony today?

Page 37448

 1        A.   Yes.  In 1990, at the elections, I was elected an assemblyman,

 2     and I was on the list of the Serb Democratic Party.  And I was one of the

 3     founders in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, one of the founders of the

 4     Serb Democratic Party, the SDS.

 5        Q.   The Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff co-ordinated closely with Serb

 6     armed forces; is that correct?

 7        A.   Serb armed forces did not exist at the time.  The Serbian

 8     Democratic Party established the so-called TO as the war drew closer.

 9     The system in pre-war Yugoslavia was such that in addition to the armed

10     forces there was the Territorial Defence comprised of the people

11     themselves.  It is rather complicated to explain.

12        Q.   Well, to be specific, it's true that members of the Crisis Staff

13     included the local chief of police, the local head of the Territorial

14     Defence, and the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence;

15     correct?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, the witness earlier apparently had

17     problems with the time-frame.  Could you give a time-frame for your

18     question so that there's no confusion.

19             MR. FILE:

20        Q.   In early 1992, isn't it true that members of the Crisis Staff

21     included the local chief of police, the local head of the Territorial

22     Defence, and the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence?

23        A.   Yes.  And this is why, in half a minute --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one asked you why.  Just whether they

25     were.  You've answered that question.

Page 37449

 1             Please proceed, Mr. File.

 2             MR. FILE:  Could we see 65 ter number 03625 -- sorry, 03635,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   As this comes up, you will see that this is a document reporting

 5     a Novo Sarajevo SDS Crisis Staff meeting dated 25 December 1991.

 6             MR. FILE:  This does not seem to be the correct document.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please repeat the number.

 8             MR. FILE:  03635.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just say it one more time, Mr. File.

10             MR. FILE:  This is correct, the one that is showing now.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12             MR. FILE:  It's 03635.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             MR. FILE:

15        Q.   So this a document reporting a Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff meeting

16     from the 25th of December, 1991.  You will see that you have a task

17     assigned to you under number 3.  And if you go further down the page, it

18     says:  Tasks.  They include list of military conscripts, first, second,

19     third call-up, men between 17 and 65.

20             Item 7 at the bottom says:  Responsible for TO Territorial

21     Defence insignia, Dragan Vucetic.

22             So my question for you is that in December 1991, the SDS Crisis

23     Staff was already participating in military-related activities such as

24     drawing up lists of conscripts and dealing with military uniforms;

25     correct?

Page 37450

 1        A.   Yes.  But the system was such, the system of All People's

 2     Defence, was such that we all had uniforms at home, irrespective of

 3     whether we were Serb, Muslim, or anything else.  The TO was one thing;

 4     the army another.

 5             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be assigned Exhibit Number P7486.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P7486 is admitted.

10             MR. FILE:

11        Q.   Mr. Salipur, isn't it also true that by January 1992, the

12     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff was calling all battalion commanders in the

13     area to attend Crisis Staff meetings?

14        A.   Yes.  But this TO was officially divided by that time.

15             MR. FILE:  Could we see 65 ter number 03640, please.

16        Q.   You will see this is a 29 January 1992 meeting minutes from the

17     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff.  And I just would like for you to verify

18     item 10, which I believe is on page 2 of the B/C/S.  This confirms your

19     testimony that all the battalion commanders are to be called to the

20     Crisis Staff meeting; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7487.  Thank

25     you.

Page 37451

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             MR. FILE:  Could we please see 65 ter number 03243, please.

 3        Q.   You will see that this is a Crisis Staff order from Novo Sarajevo

 4     dated 22 April 1992.

 5             Now, in this order, you see the Serbian Novo Sarajevo Crisis

 6     Staff issuing a military mobilisation order to local citizens that is

 7     subject to the Law on Military obligation and Military Court if it's not

 8     followed.  Now, I note that at the beginning of this document it says

 9     that this order was issued on the basis of order taken by the Council of

10     National Security of Serbian People.

11             So it's true that this order was not a spontaneous independent

12     decision by the Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff; right?  It was pursuant to an

13     order that had come from above just a few days earlier.  Isn't that

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.  Because by the time the Serbian Republic of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina had been proclaimed by the Serbian MPs in

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the war was, by that time, some 20 days under way.

18     But the VRS had still not been formed.

19             MR. FILE:  Could we look at P3027, please.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering the current --

21             MR. FILE:  Yes, I would like to tender that, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7488.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 37452

 1             MR. FILE:

 2        Q.   Mr. Salipur, you will see that this is a SRBiH Ministry of

 3     National Defence decision concerning the establishment of the

 4     Territorial Defence as an armed force of the Serbian Republic of BiH

 5     dated 16 April 1992.  This was the decision that the order we just looked

 6     at was implementing; correct?

 7        A.   This does not ring a bell, but in my view, there is a link with

 8     the order.

 9        Q.   That's fine if you don't know specifically.

10             I'm going to shift topics slightly.  It's also true that from the

11     time the SDS party was created until the conflict began, Slavo Aleksic

12     was a member of the Novo Sarajevo SDS Municipal Board; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, in the Karadzic case, you were asked about Aleksic's command

15     of the Serbian Chetnik detachment in Novo Sarajevo and your response was:

16             "... the unit under the command of Slavo Aleksic in the war was a

17     company that was part -- I'm not sure whether it was the 1st or

18     2nd Battalion.  For a time it was the Sarajevo and later the Romanija

19     Motorised Brigade."

20             Then you went on to say:

21             "Well, Chetnik detachment and so on and so forth, that has

22     nothing to do with it.  You can see under whose command he operated."

23             That at transcript page 31646 from that testimony.

24             Do you still stand by that testimony?

25        A.   I know for sure that the unit he commanded was part of the VRS as

Page 37453

 1     a company.  It was included into the other units.  They called themselves

 2     some sort of Chetnik movement, but that's a different thing.  In any

 3     case, they were definitely part of the VRS as a military formation.

 4             My answer back then had to do with Slavo Aleksic.  It was

 5     suggested that he had come from elsewhere as a volunteer, but in my

 6     statement I prove that he lived and worked in Sarajevo throughout the

 7     time and was a member of the SDS as of its establishment.

 8        Q.   I wasn't asking about where he came from.  I'm going to show you

 9     a brief video-clip and then ask you about it.

10             MR. FILE:  Could we have 65 ter number 31015c.

11             And, Your Honours, the transcript for this video has been

12     confirmed by CLSS, so I believe it can be played just once.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be played.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Journalist:  From the day the war

16     began, you were part of the Sarajevo defence and spent all your time at

17     the Jewish cemetery, defending that part of Serbian Sarajevo.

18             "Slavo Aleksic:  Yes, I came to the Jewish cemetery on

19     21 April 1992, after the Muslim forces had broken through to a part of

20     our territory.  That day, 21 April, we were descending and clearing

21     Grbavica.  I was at the Vrbanja bridge and the Vrace Police Command

22     ordered me to move together with my men to the positions at the Jewish

23     cemetery, where we repelled the Muslim attack and inflicted heavy losses

24     on them.  They took away five or six civilian hostages in retaliation.

25     They were later exchanged and from then on, from 21 April onwards, I was

Page 37454

 1     stationed at the Jewish cemetery.  In May, around St. George's Day, I

 2     moved to a small barracks named Bosut, under Debelo Brdo.  The

 3     communications centre was there, in a tunnel inside a hill.  We held

 4     these positions until the Dayton Agreements were concluded, and we

 5     controlled the Jewish cemetery and Vrbanja, all the way from Debelo Brdo

 6     to the Vrbanja bridge, Ozrenska Street and so on.  In other words, the

 7     area of Serbian Grbavica."

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. File, you should put on the record the time

 9     when the video started to the end.

10             MR. FILE:  I will have that for you in a moment, Your Honour.

11             The beginning point is 14 minutes, 32 seconds.  And it ends at

12     16 minutes, 5 seconds of the original video.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             MR. FILE:

15        Q.   Sir, you would confirm, first of all, that this is Slavo Aleksic

16     speaking in this video?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And having seen this clip --

19        A.   What's he got to do with my testimony?  It isn't clear to me.

20        Q.   Having seen this clip, would you accept that in April 1992

21     Aleksic was taking orders from the Vrace police command?

22        A.   In all of my statements, I say that the war began on the

23     4th of April.  I lived in Pofalici, in a different part of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   That wasn't the question, sir.  That --

25        A.   I had no contact with that part where Grbavica, Vrace, and the

Page 37455

 1     Jewish cemetery are until Pofalici fell on the 16th of May.  I didn't

 2     know what was going on there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you there.  The question was

 4     whether you accept --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that in April 1992 Aleksic was taking orders from

 7     the Vrace police command.  Now, there are three options:  Either do you

 8     not accept it, or you do accept it, or you just don't know.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I mentioned why.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That answers the question.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that video.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7489.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             MR. FILE:

17        Q.   Sir, I'm going to switch gears for a moment and ask you about the

18     Novo Sarajevo Assembly in 1991.  I'm going to start by playing you part

19     of a recorded telephone conversation and then I will ask you some

20     questions about it.

21             MR. FILE:  This is going to be 65 ter 20458, and the duration of

22     the first part that we're going listen to is 1 minute, 22 seconds,

23     starting from 0.

24                           [Audio-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Radovan Karadzic:  Hello.  Hi.

Page 37456

 1             "Unknown female voice:  Hello.

 2             "Radovan Karadzic:  Is this Djurovic's cabinet?

 3             "Unknown female voice:  Yes, yes, it is.

 4             "Radovan Karadzic:  Is President Djurovic there?

 5             "Unknown female voice:  Is this Dr. Karadzic?

 6             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes, it's me.

 7             "Unknown female voice:  Just a moment, please.

 8             "Radovan Karadzic:  Hello.

 9             "Zarko Djurovic:  Hello, Doctor.

10             "Radovan Karadzic:  How are you?

11             "Zarko Djurovic:  Pretty much so.

12             "Radovan Karadzic:  I called you yesterday but you were on the

13     way between your home and work.

14             "Zarko Djurovic:  Yes.  As soon as I arrived home I called, but

15     you went to some kind of meeting.

16             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes, I had another urgent thing.  I wanted to

17     say ... this thing with Neskovic, is it still on or not?

18             "Zarko Djurovic:  It is.

19             "Radovan Karadzic:  Could that wait a while so we can figure

20     something out?

21             "Zarko Djurovic:  It can.  It can wait a while so ...

22             "Radovan Karadzic:  All right.  Then its settled.

23             "Zarko Djurovic:  Now, we have some discussions to attend today,

24     there are some inter-party discussions.  This guy Sarovic and engineer

25     Soljic, they will hold talks today, so they'll probably leave it.  I

Page 37457

 1     don't think they'll appoint anyone yet.

 2             "Radovan Karadzic:  Take -- take that upon yourself, but don't --

 3     let's see what we shall do, are we in his favour or what because --

 4             "Zarko Djurovic:  Uh-huh.

 5             "Radovan Karadzic:  -- I have some more information here, I'll

 6     have it checked in about two or three days and then I'll ...

 7             "Zarko Djurovic:  All right.

 8             "Radovan Karadzic:  I'll see.  By the way, how's business?

 9             "Zarko Djurovic:  Well, it's pretty good.  Nobody's nervous, I

10     just gathered some people here, my closest associates and so.  I can see

11     here that this is being tapped and so on.  Although, these people,

12     they -- these guys from SDA, they are persistent and so ...

13             "Radovan Karadzic:  What do they want?

14             "Zarko Djurovic:  I see they are talking and they are constantly

15     dissatisfied, following these people and so on.

16             "Radovan Karadzic:  Uh-huh.

17             "Zarko Djurovic:  Incidents all the time, constant discontent and

18     so on.

19             "Radovan Karadzic:  We'll teach them the law pretty soon, because

20     in Novo Sarajevo they blocked the work of the assembly."

21             MR. FILE:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Salipur, first of all, you recognise this as a

23     conversation between Radovan Karadzic and Zarko Djurovic; correct?

24        A.   I recognise both voices.  100 per cent.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We stopped at 1:21.4.

Page 37458

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Zarko Djurovic was the chairman of the Executive Committee in

 4     Novo Sarajevo; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And hearing Karadzic's allegation that they - presumably this is

 7     the SDA - blocked the work of the assembly in Novo Sarajevo, would you

 8     agree that this conversation is taking place in November 1991?

 9        A.   I don't know when this conversation took place.  I do recognise

10     the voices.  Zarko Djurovic was president of the Executive Council,

11     coming from the ranks of the SDS.

12        Q.   That's fine.

13        A.   That was the division of power after the elections.

14        Q.   If you don't know, it's okay.  Now I'm going to play what comes

15     next in this telephone conversation which will be from 1 minute, 21.4 to

16     the end, which is 2 minutes and 19 seconds.

17                           [Audio-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Zarko Djurovic:  Yes, they did.

19             "Radovan Karadzic:  I don't know to what extent that guy Setlivar

20     is involved, but in any case the fact remains that they've blocked it.

21             "Zarko Djurovic:  Yes, they did.

22             "Radovan Karadzic:  And that we'll probably carry out some kind

23     of reorganisation of the city as such.

24             "Zarko Djurovic:  Exactly.

25             "Radovan Karadzic:  And they can go to fucking hell.

Page 37459

 1             "Zarko Djurovic:  Well, so they should.

 2             "Radovan Karadzic:  And exactly where in Novo Sarajevo are their

 3     settlements?

 4             "Zarko Djurovic:  Well, mostly it is Velesici, that can be joined

 5     to the centre without problems.

 6             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes, yes.  How many of them are there in that

 7     area?

 8             "Djurovic:  Well, about 6.000.

 9             "Karadzic:  About 6.000.  And what is the total number of them in

10     the municipality?

11             "Djurovic:  In the municipality, there are ... you can't know for

12     sure, but there are about 30.000 and then some.  However, it seems they

13     tampered with the census, but nothing can be done, otherwise that

14     would ...

15             "Karadzic:  Census, huh?

16             "Djurovic:  Yes.

17             "Karadzic:  Yes, yes.

18             "Djurovic:  But there are about 30.000 for sure, and then there

19     is Sanac, illegal settlement ...

20             "Karadzic:  Yes, yes.  That, that can't be annexed to anything,

21     right?

22             "Djurovic:  That can't -- well, it could, Sanac couldn't.

23             "Karadzic:  It can't, huh?

24             "Djurovic:  No, but that would be like a reservation, which

25     we ... in all possible ways.  Sanac is not that important anyway."

Page 37460

 1             MR. FILE:

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Salipur, I note that in your statement you say at

 3     paragraph 19:

 4             "I do not have, nor did I have, information to the effect that

 5     the Serbian leadership headed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic, by means of

 6     regionalisation, secretly grouped territories in BH which they considered

 7     to be Serbian so that these territories could secede from BH by force and

 8     possibly join Serbia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, nor was this

 9     discussed in Serbian circles."

10             Now, hearing this discussion between Radovan Karadzic and

11     Zarko Djurovic, you would accept that this type of regionalisation was

12     being discussed in Serbian circles; right?

13        A.   I don't know about these conversations in that sense.  But

14     following this recording and the text here, it just makes me laugh,

15     really.  Neither Karadzic nor Djurovic, they don't know the structure or

16     anything of these settlements that they're talking about.  It's like

17     children were agreeing about things.  I'm just telling you my opinion.  I

18     know Sarajevo, I was born in Sarajevo.  And this Djurovic came later.  I

19     mean, he is a Montenegrin.

20             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that intercept, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, Mr. Registrar draws my attention to the

23     fact that what was given on a CD is there indicated as being 65 ter

24     20458a.  That's not exactly the same number as you used, I think.  And

25     that the total duration is 2 minutes, 18 seconds, which might also --

Page 37461

 1     does that cover all of what we heard?

 2             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I accept those corrections,

 3     that's correct, it should be 20458a.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And the time what we listened to, the intercept, was

 5     that all together -- was that all together 2 minutes, 18 seconds?

 6             MR. FILE:  Yes, the entire intercept is 2 minutes and 18 seconds.

 7     We listened to it in two parts.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The two together then, we'll verify that.

 9             Mr. Registrar, could assign a number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7490.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             MR. FILE:  Could we please look at 65 ter number 10694.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There is one second missing, by the way.  It

15     says 2:18, whereas you indicated it was 2:19, but let's just accept that.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. FILE:

18        Q.   You will see that these are the minutes of the 10th joint session

19     of the Sarajevo SDS city and Executive Boards from the 27th of November,

20     1991, presided over by Jovo Jovanovic, chairman of the city board,

21     Sarajevo SDS.  There are three items in this document I would like to

22     draw your attention to.

23             On page 1 in both versions, agenda item 4, is titled:

24     Regionalisation.  If we could go to English page 4 and B/C/S page 5, you

25     will see regarding item 4, in the middle of the page, that a detailed

Page 37462

 1     report was presented "about the results of the commission for carrying

 2     out regionalisation."  And you'll see that that report was unanimously

 3     adopted.

 4             And now if we could go to English page 5 and B/C/S page 6, at the

 5     top of those pages, here this is Jovo Jovanovic who is recorded as

 6     stating, and I quote:

 7             "Very soon regionalisation would be carried out, and in areas

 8     with a Serbian majority and places where Serbs were owners of real

 9     estate, Serbian organs of government would be formed."

10             Now looking at this document, it's true, isn't it, that a plan

11     was in place and already being discussed in the SDS in Sarajevo at least

12     by November 1991 to carry out a regionalisation that would create Serb

13     territories.  That's true, isn't it?

14        A.   I don't know anything about this.  I wasn't a member of any

15     higher party echelons for the city of Sarajevo.  All I know is the

16     situation in the Serbian Democratic Party in the municipality of

17     Sarajevo.  I knew Mr. Jovanovic and I know about the meeting.  I know

18     that it was held in our municipal building.  However, I didn't attend the

19     meeting and I'm not familiar with any of these activities.  This is

20     something that never reached our Municipal Board, so this is something

21     that I am only seeing now in this document.

22             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7491.  Thank

25     you.

Page 37463

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. FILE:  Could we please have P353.  English and B/C/S pages 93

 3     in both.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is a notebook kept by Ratko Mladic and we're going to

 5     look at an entry from the 6th of June, 1992, at the Hotel Bistrica

 6     Jahorina entitled:  Consultations on the military and political situation

 7     in SRBH.

 8             MR. FILE:  Could we please go to English and B/C/S page 102.

 9        Q.   Sir, here you see a reference to Neskovic.  Now this is reference

10     to the president of the Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo at that time in

11     June 1992; correct?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. File, are you sure that these pages

13     correspond?  I have some doubt.

14             MR. FILE:  It may be that we need to go two more pages in the

15     B/C/S.  One more page, I believe.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we're on the right page, isn't it?

17             MR. FILE:

18        Q.   Now just to clarify, sir -- oh.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We were at the right page.  I think we're not any --

20             MR. FILE:  Yes, I believe we were.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One page back.  No, perhaps one more --

22             MR. FILE:  One more back.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now on the right page, I think.

24             MR. FILE:  Okay.

25        Q.   Now I believe you can see a reference to Neskovic.  He was the

Page 37464

 1     president of the Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo at that time, in

 2     June 1992; isn't that right?

 3        A.   He was a government commissioner for the -- for Novo Sarajevo.

 4     That's what the title was.  He was practically above the Crisis Staff and

 5     all of that.  That post -- once the Crisis Staffs were established, the

 6     then-government introduced that post.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. FILE:  Could we go to English page 104 --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And what we looked at until now was page 102 in the

10     English version?

11             MR. FILE:  Yes.  And 103 in the B/C/S.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Indeed, 103, e-court page B/C/S.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. FILE:  It may be that we need page 105 in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   So at the top of the page, you see "Karadzic," who says:

16             "We could have gone for a compact and dispersed partition of

17     Sarajevo if there had been the political means.  Not all our wishes can

18     be fulfilled, we have to be a mature people."

19             Now that's the truth of the matter, that the Bosnian Serb

20     leadership desired a partition of the city of Sarajevo if that had been

21     possible; correct?

22        A.   Well, I don't know what the date is of the notes and the meeting,

23     when this took place.  In any case --

24        Q.   For your information, it's the 6th of June, 1992.

25        A.   In any case, Sarajevo was a divided city.  It was never

Page 37465

 1     encircled.  Throughout the war, it was a divided city.  That would be the

 2     most correct way to describe it.  It was divided at the beginning of the

 3     war.  The war divided it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Radovan Karadzic also participated significantly in local

 5     SDS affairs.  For example, by personally attending at least ten different

 6     sessions of the SDS Municipal Board just in Novo Sarajevo alone, from the

 7     time of the 1990 elections until conflict broke out in 1992; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay --

10        A.   Out of the six city assemblies, it was the municipality that had

11     the strongest SDS presence.  That is where the SDS won the elections.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to shift to another topic.

13             In your statement you talk about the Muslims arming themselves,

14     in paragraph 11.  And then in paragraph 24, you talk about Serbs having

15     some weapons, like hunting rifles and pistols, that were legally in their

16     possession.  But isn't it true that the Novo Sarajevo SDS Municipal Board

17     decided to give material support to Serbs who had been convicted of

18     illegal arms trafficking in February 1992?

19        A.   I am not aware of that kind of support.  I do know about a

20     situation with a convoy of weapons that was transported through our

21     municipality's territory and that this was seized by the military police.

22     I cannot remember it all precisely.  This something that I heard.  It was

23     something that was happening far away from me, and I didn't know anything

24     about it.

25        Q.   I'm going to try to refresh your memory.  If we --

Page 37466

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File --

 2             MR. FILE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- before you do so.  I think the Chamber urged the

 4     parties to see whether they could conclude the examination-in-chief and

 5     cross-examination within this hour.  Now we have seven minutes left.

 6             First, Mr. Stojanovic, as matters stand now, how much time would

 7     you need for re-examination?  And I may point at the fact that you used

 8     38 minutes in the examination of the witness rather than the 30 you

 9     assessed.  How much time, as matters stand now, would you still need?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't need a lot.  I just have

11     a couple of questions so I am not going to take long at all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that five minutes or is that ...

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that would be

14     sufficient.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. File, I would like to urge you to conclude

16     as quickly as you can now.  And that means within the next five minutes.

17             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, it may, with your leave, take

18     approximately ten minutes to get through the -- if that's --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We're running out of time.

20             MR. FILE:  Very well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to deal with procedural matters, so ten

22     minutes is not okay.  We already go beyond our schedule for more than

23     five minutes and it's really urgent.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 37467

 1             Could we look at 65 ter 03217, please.

 2        Q.   Now, these are the minutes from the 13th Extraordinary Session of

 3     the SDS Novo Sarajevo Municipal Board dated 28 February 1992.  You will

 4     see on item 5, you were present there.  It says "Zdravko Malipur," but I

 5     would add that on page 5 of this document in both versions it quotes you

 6     as "Salipur" participating in this meeting.

 7             MR. FILE:  Could we go to English page 6 and B/C/S page 7.

 8        Q.   So what you will see here is the issue arises regarding:

 9             "... problems of Serbs convicted for transport of arms in Vrace.

10     They do not have money for paying the fine, trial expenses and lawyers'

11     fees (200.000 dinars are needed)."

12             And then it goes on to say --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Next page.

14             MR. FILE:  On the next page in the English, yes.  And I believe

15     it's next page in the B/C/S as well.

16        Q.   It says:

17             "After discussion in which majority of members present at the

18     meeting took part, the board reached the following conclusions:

19             "... payment of 200.000 dinars for helping the Serbs convicted of

20     transport in arms -- for transport of arms in Vrace has been approved."

21             So it was not the case, as you suggest in your statement, that

22     Serb arms were limited to legal possession of weapons; correct?

23        A.   There's just a little time so I cannot explain this precisely.

24     It depends on the time when they did have, when they didn't have.  It

25     changes from day to day.  The situation changed from day to day.

Page 37468

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not invited to explain the whole of

 2     the situation.  What Mr. File puts to you is that apparently from this

 3     document you could read that Serbs were convicted for transport of arms

 4     in Vrace and that money was needed for their defence, or further defence,

 5     and whether that does not indicate that Serbs were also dealing with

 6     illegal weapon business.

 7             If I understood your question well, Mr. File.

 8             Could you please answer that question?

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us whether, on the basis of

11     this document, you agree that Serbs were involved in illegal arms as

12     well?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally know who these people

14     are.  They broke the law and they had to pay the fine.  Since they were

15     our members, we approved a sum of money to help them out so that they

16     don't have do go to prison.

17             As for what weapons they were, who they were transporting them

18     for, where they were supposed to be going, all these things I don't know

19     anything about.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   My last question relates to paragraphs 20 and 30 of your

23     statement where you deny knowledge, in paragraph 20, that civilian

24     authorities supported or were involved with the permanent removal of

25     non-Serbs from territories claimed by Serbs; and in paragraph 30, where

Page 37469

 1     you say the non-Serbian population was allowed access to all public

 2     institutions, enjoyed all civil and human rights, and had freedom of

 3     movement in the whole of Republika Srpska.

 4             I'd like to show you Exhibit P307, please.  When this comes up,

 5     you will see that it is an UN document from UNCIVPOL, an occurrence

 6     report from Sector Sarajevo regarding the expulsion of Muslim citizens

 7     from Grbavica Sector Sarajevo to the area of Novo Sarajevo dated 30th of

 8     September, 1992.

 9             It describes the area on page 1, that it is the Bristol Hotel

10     area.  The second paragraph says that the preliminary information

11     confirmed that the expulsion was in progress.

12             And then at the bottom paragraph on English page 1 and moving on

13     to B/C/S page 2, it describes a scene that was totally out of control

14     with the sound of shelling and gun-fire, people in a panic.  The Red

15     Cross confirmed approximately 300 Muslim civilians had been expelled.

16     And then in English page 2 and B/C/S page 3, the penultimate paragraph,

17     the report's author found it very strange that this specific area of the

18     town was under shelling.  And he said it appeared evident that the

19     shelling was directed towards the Muslim civilians.

20             Now I would also note that this was labelled by -- an expulsion

21     by SRNA, the Serb media outlet, in P6527.  And it also led to a protest

22     from UNPROFOR Commander Morillon to Radovan Karadzic, which is P4592.

23             Now this event appears to have taken place just a few days before

24     you returned from Belgrade to Grbavica.  It involved hundreds of people.

25     It was serious enough to provoke a protest at the highest levels and it

Page 37470

 1     happened in precisely the part of Sarajevo that you returned to, but

 2     there's no mention of this in your description of the harmonious

 3     relations and life enjoyed by non-Serbs in Grbavica.

 4             So my question to you is:  Why did you exclude this incident from

 5     your statement?

 6        A.   Could you please show me this first page for a second again,

 7     please.

 8             As far as I can see, first of all, I'd never heard of this and it

 9     did not happen while I was at Grbavica.

10             Secondly, as far as I can see, Hotel Bristol is mentioned in this

11     document.  Hotel Bristol is not in Grbavica.  It was under the control of

12     the Muslim forces.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you say you never heard about it, which, I

14     think, answers the question why you can't tell about it.

15             Mr. File, you had used more than your five minutes.

16             MR. FILE:  And that's all I will use.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. File, before you sit down, do you have any

18     intentions with respect to 65 ter 03217?

19             MR. FILE:  If I omitted to ask for that to be tendered, then I

20     would ask for that now, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You did omit.

22             MR. FILE:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P7492.  Thank

25     you.

Page 37471

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, your five minutes start now.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Salipur, at some point today in

 5     cross-examination you were asked if representatives of the police and

 6     commanders of police stations were members of Crisis Staffs and if you

 7     recall you tried to say that they were but you were stopped in your

 8     intention to explain.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Your Honours, it

10     was page 75 of today's temporary transcript, lines 11 through 19.

11        Q.   I would now like to ask you why were representatives of police

12     stations represented on the Crisis Staffs at that time, to the best of

13     your knowledge?

14        A.   I'll be brief.  After the elections, when the authorities were

15     set up, if the police commander was a Muslim, his deputy would be a Serb,

16     or in case of the TO, the principle was the same.  Each of those

17     officials was a member to a Crisis Staff.  As someone from a particular

18     political party, they were given that position.  That is what I wasn't

19     allowed to explain.  So on the same Crisis Staff there would be two

20     people from different organisations:  One from the SDS and another from

21     somewhere else.

22        Q.   Another question.  At that time, according to the coalition

23     agreements between the national parties participating in the division of

24     power, were the staffs and duties also divided according to the ethnic

25     key?

Page 37472

 1        A.   Yes.  The chief of TO Staff was Idriz --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

 3     slow down and repeat the names.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you slow down and repeat the names.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Salko Idriz, chief of the TO Staff

 6     in Novo Sarajevo municipality, pre-war chief, he assumed that position on

 7     behalf of the SDS and he participated in the attack on Pofalici when the

 8     60 people were killed.  His deputy was Momo Garic on our side, in our

 9     Crisis Staff.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

11     I'd like to consult with the client briefly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

13                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Salipur, I'd like to thank you on behalf of General Mladic's

16     Defence.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no more

18     questions of this witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No more questions from the Prosecution?

20             MR. FILE:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench also has no further questions for

23     you, Mr. Salipur, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like

24     to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having

25     answered the questions that were put to you, questions put to you by the

Page 37473

 1     parties, and questions put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.  I would be

 3     happy if my testimony contributed to the reaching of the truth or

 4     anything of the sort.  In any case, to assist you in these proceedings.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for the good wishes, and you may follow

 6     the usher.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll just take a very, very short break in order to

10     allow Mr. Mladic to leave the courtroom because he waived his right to

11     remain present when we're dealing with procedural matters.

12             We take a break of one minute.

13                           [The accused withdrew]

14                            --- Break taken at 2.56 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 2.58 p.m.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll deal with some procedural matters.  We start

18     with the first one.  That's an oral decision on the admission of

19     associated exhibits tendered through Witness Vladimir Lukic.

20             The witness testified on the 8th through the 10th of September,

21     2014.  From the original 88 tendered associated exhibits on the exhibit

22     list submitted with the Defence's Rule 92 ter motion, 11 documents were

23     admitted into evidence during Lukic's testimony.

24             On the 25th of November, 2014, the Defence submitted a revised

25     exhibit list via e-mail and withdrew 11 of the originally tendered

Page 37474

 1     associated exhibits.  An additional six documents were admitted into

 2     evidence pursuant to the Chamber's decision of the 16th of February,

 3     2015.

 4             With regard to document bearing 65 ter number 1D5295, the Chamber

 5     notes that it was admitted as part of Exhibit P2508 on the 22nd of

 6     June this year, and this can be found at transcript page 36159 through

 7     60.

 8             Accordingly, the Chamber will now decide on the remaining 59

 9     documents tendered as exhibits associated with Lukic's witness statement

10     admitted as Exhibit D626.

11             The Chamber recalls that documents can be an admitted as

12     associated exhibits if they form an inseparable and indispensable part of

13     the witness's written testimony.  In order to satisfy this test, the

14     tendering party must demonstrate that the witness's statement would be

15     incomprehensible or of less probative value without admission into

16     evidence of the associated exhibits.  The Chamber has discussed its

17     interpretation of the applicable law at transcript pages 530 to 531, and

18     5601 to 5603, and in its written decision of the 23rd of July and another

19     one, the 7th of February, 2013.  The Chamber finds that without some of

20     the tendered documents, it would not be able to comprehend the witness's

21     statement and for this reason finds that these documents form an

22     inseparable and indispensable part of Lukic's written statement.  The

23     Chamber therefore admits the following 22 documents bearing Rule 65 ter

24     numbers 1D2447 up to and including 1D2449, Exhibit 1D2465, Exhibits

25     1D2472 up to and including 1D2474, documents 1D2478 up to and including

Page 37475

 1     1D2480, document 1D2484 -- documents, I should say, 1D2484 up to and

 2     including 1D2487, document 1D2489, 1D2490, 1D2496, 1D2500, 1D4403,

 3     1D5284, 1D5289, and 21766 into evidence as associated exhibits to

 4     Exhibit D626.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to assign

 5     exhibit numbers to the documents admitted into evidence.

 6             With regard to the remaining 37 documents, the Chamber finds that

 7     they either restate the witness's written evidence or in some instances

 8     lack any relations with the document.  Therefore, these documents do not

 9     form an inseparable and indispensable part of Exhibit D626, and the

10     Chamber further finds that the exclusion of these documents does not

11     result in a lesser probative value of Exhibit D626 and consequently

12     denies their admission.

13             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

14             The next decision I'll deliver is the decision on the Defence's

15     responses to the Prosecution's notices regarding the disclosure of the

16     expert reports of Svetlana Radovanovic, Dragic Gojkovic, and

17     Mile Dosenovic.

18             On the 9th of February, the 13th of February, and the 10th of

19     April, 2015, the Defence filed notices of disclosure of three expert

20     reports authored by Radovanovic, Gojkovic, and Dosenovic respectively,

21     pursuant to Rules 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

22             The Prosecution filed its respective notices on 11th of March,

23     16th of March and 30th of April.

24             On the 25th of March, the 30th of March, and the 12th of May, the

25     Defence filed its responses to the Prosecution's notices.  On the

Page 37476

 1     1st of April, 7th of April, and the 19th of May, the Prosecution

 2     requested leave to reply and replied.

 3             On the 13th of May and on the 22nd of May, for the latter, the

 4     Chamber delivered its decisions on the expertise of these experts but

 5     deferred its decision on the 25th of March, 30th of the March, and

 6     12 May filings.  This can be found at transcript pages 35582 through 585,

 7     and 36073 through 74.

 8             On a preliminary note, the Chamber considers the Defence's

 9     response filings of the 25th of March and the 30th of March to be akin to

10     a motion.  As a result, the Prosecution had an opportunity to respond to

11     these motions and, accordingly, the Prosecution's requests for leave to

12     reply are moot.

13             The Defence submits that the Prosecution's notices do not comply

14     with the Chamber's previous guidance on Rule 94 bis filings insofar as

15     they failed to provide any specificity in relation to the Prosecution's

16     objections.  In this regard, the Defence submits that the Prosecution

17     should be subject to the same Rule 94 bis filing standard as the Defence.

18     The Defence further submits that the Prosecution should be precluded from

19     challenging the methodology and subject matter of the three reports and

20     that its cross-examination of the expert witnesses should be limited to

21     seeking explanation of the reports' conclusions.

22             The Prosecution submits that the Defence misinterprets the

23     Chamber's guidance.  It also argues that the guidance does not apply to

24     the current situation as the Prosecution's position in relation to the

25     issues challenged by the three Defence expert witnesses is already on the

Page 37477

 1     record.

 2             The Prosecution further submits that the Defence's proposed

 3     remedy is not contemplated by the rules and should therefore be denied.

 4             With regard to the Defence's first argument, the Chamber

 5     considers that the Prosecution has indicated in its notices the parts of

 6     the three reports it intends to challenge.  Recalling its guidance on

 7     5th of December, 2011, and the 11th of January, 2012, the Chamber notes

 8     that the parties are advised to be as specific as possible by identifying

 9     which sections of the reports it wishes to challenge and provide reasons

10     for any challenges.

11             The Chamber notes that the aforementioned guidance was issued

12     prior to the start of the case at the stage of the proceedings where

13     there was uncertainty as to which aspects of the Prosecution's expert

14     evidence would be challenged by the Defence.  In the current stage of the

15     proceedings and in light of the evidence presented by the Prosecution,

16     the position of the Prosecution and the issues in dispute are better

17     known to the parties.  The Chamber further notes that some of the

18     aforementioned Defence experts have indicated in what respect they take

19     issue with the reports of the Prosecution experts.  The degree of

20     specificity envisaged by the guidance does not necessarily need to be

21     made in a party's Rule 94 bis under (B) notice, but in order to expedite

22     the proceedings and to ensure clarity, should be communicated to the

23     tendering party well in advance of the expert's testimony.  The Chamber

24     considers that the Prosecution could have specified more clearly and in

25     greater detail the parts of the reports that it intends to challenge.

Page 37478

 1             Concerning the Defence's second submission, the Chamber recalls

 2     that Rule 90(H) does not provide for such limitations.  The Chamber also

 3     recalls its decisions on the expertise of Reynaud Theunens and Ewa Tabeau

 4     dated the 25th of September and the 7th of November, 2013, respectively,

 5     in which it considered that arguments relating to the content and

 6     methodology of expert reports can and should be addressed during

 7     cross-examination.  This can be found at transcript pages 17437 through

 8     440, and 18874 through 75.

 9             Based on the foregoing and pursuant to Rule 54 of the Rules, the

10     Chamber denies the Defence's requests.  However, the Chamber invites the

11     Prosecution to further specify its objections to the expert reports of

12     Svetlana Radovanovic, Dragic Gojkovic, and Mile Dosenovic, and considers

13     that these objections can and should be addressed during

14     cross-examination of the witnesses.

15             This concludes the Chamber's decision on this matter.

16             I move on.  Oral decision on the expertise of Witnesses

17     Mitar Kovac.  The Chamber -- on the 17th of February, 2015, the Defence

18     filed a notice of disclosure of Milos Kovac's report pursuant to

19     Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  The Prosecution

20     filed its notice pursuant to the same rule on the 19th of March,

21     submitting that, while it does not challenge the status of Kovac as a

22     military expert or the relevance of his report, it does not accept the

23     conclusions of his report, and, therefore, wishes to cross-examine him.

24             On 2nd of April, the Defence filed a response to the

25     Prosecution's 19th of March submission.  On the 9th of April, the

Page 37479

 1     Prosecution sought leave to reply and filed a reply to the Defence

 2     response.

 3             Today, the Chamber has addressed similar party submissions

 4     corresponding to those of 2 and 9 April regarding other experts and takes

 5     the same position here.

 6             With respect to the applicable law concerning expert evidence,

 7     the Chamber recalls and refers to its 19th of October, 2012, decision

 8     concerning expert witness Richard Butler.

 9             On the basis of Kovac's curriculum vitae and considering that the

10     Prosecution does not dispute Kovac's qualifications as military expert,

11     the Chamber is satisfied that he has specialised knowledge and expertise,

12     and that such knowledge and expertise may be of assistance to the Chamber

13     in assessing the expert evidence presented by the Prosecution during its

14     case in-chief.

15             With regard to the Prosecution's request to cross-examine the

16     witness, the Chamber notes that the Defence plans to call Kovac to give

17     evidence.  The Prosecution will therefore have the opportunity to

18     cross-examine him.

19             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides, pursuant to

20     Rule 94 bis, that Kovac may be called to testify as an expert witness and

21     that he shall be made available for cross-examination by the Prosecution.

22             The Chamber defers its decision on admission of his expert report

23     to the time of his testimony.

24             The Chamber now directs the Defence's attention to a preliminary

25     observation regarding Kovac's report.  The Chamber observes there is

Page 37480

 1     information in the report that is beyond the scope of the witness's area

 2     of expertise.  Apart from discussing matters related to the witness's

 3     military expertise, the report focuses quite heavily on ethnic,

 4     religious, demographic, and historical elements.

 5             For example, at pages 102 through 104 of his report, the witness

 6     appears to challenge the work of expert demographer Ewa Tabeau in general

 7     based on the writings of a demographer called Stevo Pasalic.  Various

 8     sections of the report also contain tables and figures of unsourced

 9     demographic data.  I refer to pages 22, 102, and 107.  And three

10     attachments to the report, which the Chamber observes are not in fact

11     attached, intend to inform the Chamber on the ethnic composition of the

12     population of Sarajevo and of Bosnia.  The Chamber has not received

13     material establishing the witness's expertise as a demographer, a

14     historian, or a sociologist.  As a result, it expects the parties to

15     focus their examination of the witness on those aspects of the report

16     that relate to his analysis of the military.

17             The Chamber will decide upon completion of Mitar Kovac's

18     testimony on the admission into evidence of his report or portions

19     thereof as may be the case.  And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

20             I now move to a few remaining issues from the testimony of

21     Svetozar Andric.  On the 9th -- 29th of April, 2015, P7358 and P7360 were

22     MFI'd, pending receipt of B/C/S translations.  On the 19th and the 21st

23     of May, 2015, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and the Defence by

24     e-mail that the translations were uploaded into e-court under the doc ID

25     numbers 0265-0037-BCST and R012-2224-BCST respectively.

Page 37481

 1             The Chamber has instructed to attach these translations -- the

 2     Registry.  The Registry is instructed to attach these translations and

 3     the Chamber admits P7358 and P7360 into evidence.

 4             Also on the 29th of April, D1038 was MFI'd, pending receipt of an

 5     English translation.  On the same day, the Defence informed the

 6     Prosecution and the Chamber that the translation was uploaded into

 7     e-court under doc ID number 1D19-2016.  And on the 30th of April, the

 8     Prosecution stated that it had no objections.  The Registry is instructed

 9     to attach the translations and the Chamber admits D1038 into evidence.

10             Next item, two exhibits, P7347 and P7362, were reserved -- these

11     numbers were reserved on the 28th and the 29th of April, 2015, pending

12     the Prosecution selecting the excerpts of the two documents to be

13     tendered.

14             On the 4th of May, the Prosecution informed the Defence and the

15     Chamber that it had selected the excerpts which are uploaded under

16     65 ter numbers 32499a and 2364a.  The Defence has not objected to

17     admission.  The Chamber instructs the Registry to replace the current

18     P7347 and P7362 with the mentioned 65 ter numbers and admits them into

19     evidence.

20             Next item is a reminder about Rule 92 bis motions.

21             On 29th of June, the Defence stated that it would start filing

22     its Rule 92 bis motions during week of 6th of July.  To be found at

23     transcript page 36439.  As of now, no such motions have been filed.  As

24     Rule 92 bis motions require significant time and effort for the

25     responding party, as well for the Chamber, this is not something that the

Page 37482

 1     Defence can postpone until the last minute.  The Chamber urges the

 2     Defence to start filing its Rule 92 bis motions as soon as possible.

 3             Then I move to the next decision to be delivered.  It's a

 4     decision on the admission of P7381.

 5             On the 12th of May, 2015, P7381, a proposal for the appointment

 6     of officers to the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade dated the 23rd of August,

 7     1992, was marked for identification during the testimony of

 8     Dragan Todorovic.  The Defence objected to its admission, stating that

 9     the witness had no knowledge about the document and that it lacked

10     sufficient indicia of authenticity.  This can be found at transcript

11     page 35420.  The Chamber granted the parties time to make additional

12     submissions, if any, until the 15th of May.  No submissions were received

13     by the set deadline.  A reminder e-mail sent by the Chamber's staff on

14     the 20th of May also did not result in any further submissions by the

15     parties.  The Chamber will therefore now decide on the admission of

16     P7381.

17             The Chamber recalls that the applicable law for the admission of

18     evidence is set out in Rule 89(C) of the Rules which allows a Chamber to

19     admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have probative value.

20             With regard to the Defence's objection that the witness had no

21     knowledge about the document, the Chamber recalls that this is not a

22     requirement for tendering it through a witness, as long as the document's

23     content is sufficiently linked to the content of the witness's testimony.

24             On the issue of authenticity, the Chamber recalls that prima

25     facie proof of reliability on the basis of sufficient indicia is enough

Page 37483

 1     at the admissibility stage.  The Chamber has analysed P7381 in this

 2     light, a document which was allegedly generated on the 23rd of August,

 3     1992, by the Birac Infantry Brigade.  While the Chamber acknowledges that

 4     this is the same brigade the witness was a member of, the document,

 5     however, lacks other relevant indicia of reliability such as an

 6     addressee.  Moreover, it does not bear a stamp or signature, which raises

 7     the additional question of whether the document is, in fact, complete.

 8     The witness himself was not able to provide information about the

 9     document that would have guided the Chamber.  Finally is the relevance of

10     the document unclear to this Chamber.  For these reasons, the Chamber

11     hereby denies the admission into evidence of P7381 without prejudice.

12             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

13             I move to an oral decision on the admission of Exhibits P6858 and

14     P6859.

15             On the 29th of October, during the cross-examination of Witness

16     Slavko Kralj, the Prosecution showed the witness a photograph, asked him

17     to comment on it, and then tendered the photograph along with a related

18     four-page transcript of Johannes Rutten's testimony from the Krstic case.

19     These were later marked for identification as Exhibits P6858 and P6859

20     respectively.

21             The Defence objected to the admission of the transcript excerpt,

22     P6859, on the grounds that Rutten should be called to testify.  The

23     Chamber understood the Defence's objection to mean that the transcript of

24     Rutten's previous testimony could not be offered in lieu of his

25     testifying in the present case unless tendered pursuant to Rule 92 bis of

Page 37484

 1     the Rules.

 2             The Prosecution submitted that, pursuant to Rule 89(C), the

 3     Chamber has a great deal of discretion in the admission of evidence, and

 4     that Rule 92 bis should not be apply to such a short excerpt of

 5     testimony.  This discussion can be found on transcript pages 27475 to

 6     27478.

 7             Rule 89(C) of the Rules allows the Chamber to admit any relevant

 8     evidence it deems to have probative value, while Rule 92 bis is the

 9     lex specialis for out-of-court statements prepared for the purpose of

10     legal proceedings and tendered in lieu of oral testimony before the

11     Tribunal.

12             The Chamber notes that the witness Kralj was unable to comment on

13     P6858, the event depicted in the photograph, or provide any information

14     about the relevant context, and for these reasons, the Chamber finds that

15     P6858 is not relevant for purposes of admission.

16             While the Chamber agrees with the Prosecution that it maintains a

17     great deal of discretion with regard to the admission of evidence

18     pursuant to Rule 89(C), it finds no support for the argument that the

19     applicability of Rule 92 bis somehow depends on the length or the content

20     of the proffered evidence.  Considering that the excerpt of Rutten's

21     Krstic testimony has been tendered in lieu of Rutten's oral testimony

22     before the Tribunal, the Chamber finds that Rule 92 bis applies and not

23     Rule 89(C) as argued by the Prosecution.

24             And for these reasons the Chamber denies the admission into

25     evidence of P6858 and P6859 without prejudice.

Page 37485

 1             And this concludes this decision.

 2             The next decision -- let me just think about it one moment.

 3             Next decision, a decision on the tendering of associated exhibits

 4     for Vojo Kupresanin.

 5             On the 10th of October, 2014, the Defence filed a Rule 92 ter

 6     motion for Kupresanin tendering 46 associated exhibits.  On 11th of

 7     November, the Prosecution noted that seven of the 46 associated exhibits

 8     were already in evidence.  On the 17th of December, the Prosecution filed

 9     its e-mail of the 8th of December to the Chamber and the Defence which

10     set out its position regarding the remaining 39 associated exhibits;

11     namely, that it objected to the admission of six of them.

12             On 2nd of March, 2015, the Defence filed its response and

13     clarified that two of the documents objected to were already in evidence

14     and that three others had previously been withdrawn.  The remaining

15     associated exhibit objected to was admitted on the 14th of May, 2015.

16             The Chamber also puts on the record that on the 20th of May, the

17     Defence, via e-mail, withdrew two further documents.  The Chamber notes

18     that documents bearing 65 ter numbers 2628 and 06884 were admitted, P7004

19     and P7006 respectively.

20             Accordingly, the Chamber will decide on the remaining

21     29 documents.  The Chamber recalls that documents can be admitted as

22     associated exhibits if they form an inseparable and indispensable part of

23     the witness's written testimony.  In order to satisfy this test, the

24     tendering party must demonstrate that the witness's evidence would be

25     incomprehensible or of less probative value without the admission of the

Page 37486

 1     relevant associated exhibits into evidence.  The Chamber has discussed

 2     its interpretation of this case law at transcript pages 530 to 531, and

 3     5601 to 5603, and in its written decisions of the 23rd of July, 2012, and

 4     7th of February, 2013.

 5             The Chamber has reviewed the Kupresanin statement against the

 6     background of the test for admission of associated exhibits and finds

 7     that each of the following 19 documents forms an inseparable and

 8     indispensable part of the statement to the extent that the statement

 9     would be incomprehensible or of less probative value without them.

10             D989 and documents -- and D989 is marked for identification, and

11     further documents bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 3016, 7197, 16868, 17222,

12     1D2433, 20153, 16121, 6875, 20268, 20435, 1D2027, 20520, 17208, 2559,

13     2604, 16132, 16135, and 1D2867, and therefore admits them into evidence.

14     The Registry is requested to assign numbers by way of filing an internal

15     memorandum.

16             The Chamber finds that ten remaining documents do not form a

17     inseparable and indispensable part of Kupresanin's statement, as they to

18     some extent restate the witness's written evidence or in some incidents

19     are not sufficiently related to the content of the statement.  The

20     Chamber further finds that the exclusion of the remaining documents does

21     not result in the statement having lesser probative value.

22             Consequently, the Chamber denies their admission into evidence

23     and this concludes the Chamber's decision.

24             We have a little bit less than ten minutes remaining.  We are

25     otherwise running out of the table.

Page 37487

 1             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber asked for an update on Plan A and/or

 2     Plan B after resuming on the 10th of August.  And the Chamber also

 3     invites you to update us on whether you have made up your mind as far as

 4     the list of witnesses is concerned.  We're still waiting for further

 5     information.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Our problem in connection with the first week is

 7     still in effect, unfortunately, and the one witness we can bring here in

 8     the first week the Prosecution objected to.  It's Mr. Strbac, Savo.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I foreshadowed to Mr. Lukic

11     that based on the submission of Mr. Strbac's statement which we reviewed,

12     the Prosecution anticipated an objection to that proposed testimony which

13     consisted entirely, insofar as we could determine, of crimes committed

14     against Serbs in Croatia by Croatian forces.  So if that is the

15     anticipated testimony, we would be filing with an anticipatory objection

16     with the Chamber which, although technically premature, we would ask the

17     Chamber to respond to before the witness travelled here for obvious

18     reasons, so that the schedule wasn't unduly disrupted, unnecessary

19     expenses weren't --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore it's not that much the date but rather

21     at all this witness coming to testify on the basis of the statement as

22     you've received it.

23             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  So, I mean, there

24     may be some misunderstanding about the nature of that testimony, but I

25     don't think so based on the statement.

Page 37488

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please further explore that, Mr. Lukic.  And please

 2     proceed, now.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We are in the process of obtaining one expert witness

 4     for that period.  It's mining expert, and I informed Mr. Traldi, but it's

 5     not confirmed.  It has not been confirmed yet.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about the recalling of Mr. Tusevljak?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Tusevljak cannot be recalled because of that

 8     document, 240 pages, something that the Prosecution asks to have that

 9     document at least 20 days translated before Mr. Tusevljak appears here.

10             So we were informed by the translator whom we employed outside

11     the Tribunal since it would not be possible to be done in near future,

12     and he informed us that he cannot do it before the 10th of August.  He

13     would try to, but if that 20-day deadline is changed, that we might maybe

14     bring -- or if we finish -- if our translator finishes the translation of

15     that document, that we might bring Mr. Tusevljak.  He's willing to come

16     at any date we call him.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We have another 25 days.  Could the parties try to

18     explore what is possible, for example, partly translation already to be

19     submitted, so as to see whether any solution can be reached.  I know that

20     it's not ideal but that's at least another avenue to be further explored.

21             MR. TIEGER:  We will do so, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further update, Mr. Lukic?

23             MR. LUKIC:  That's all we have potentially for the first week.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're invited and urged to further explore

25     because the Chamber will consider what the consequences are if you do not

Page 37489

 1     use the time which is available for the Defence to present its evidence.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Well, I hope -- sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I hope that he will have more data on Monday.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Despite the recess we'll all be kept informed

 6     about anything you bring to the attention of the Chamber, even if that is

 7     only informally.

 8             Now, the witnesses, the reduction of the number of witnesses,

 9     could you tell us anything about that.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have with me the final number, but I think

11     that we plan to bring 40-plus witnesses till the end of our case.

12     Including international witnesses and expert witnesses.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please try to make up your mind as

14     soon as possible, also which witnesses they are, so that everyone can

15     further prepare.

16             MR. LUKIC:  We'll do so, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Any matter before the recess?  We have three minutes left.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Just some quick clarification on the procedural

20     mechanism for the matter raised by Mr. Lukic, the Strbac matter.  We will

21     discuss with the Defence which gives rise to a couple of possibilities,

22     either the Defence agrees with the Prosecution that the nature of the

23     witness's proposed testimony is such that he should not be called or that

24     we see it differently after discussions.  But in the event it doesn't --

25     that there is an impasse, I just wanted to indicate we would be filing an

Page 37490

 1     appropriate motion with the Court to deny the proposed admission, and

 2     because of the scheduling issues we would ask to get that back as quickly

 3     as possible.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I can only say that even during the recess if

 5     anything is urgent is filed, we'll pay attention to it and try to decide

 6     any matter which is urgent as soon as possible.

 7             I'd like to thank the parties for allowing us to get a clean

 8     slate, as far as procedural issues are concerned.  I'd also like to thank

 9     all those who have assist us - security, technicians, interpreters,

10     transcribers - for the flexibility of, again, allowing us to reach the

11     point where we are at this very moment.  We'll not see each other for a

12     little bit over three weeks.  I wish everyone some good recovery from the

13     stress until now, but I'm also aware that perhaps the time is needed to

14     get some additional stress.  That may be true for the parties.  That is

15     to some extent true for the Chamber as well because, as I said, if there

16     is any urgent matter, we will immediately deal with it.

17             We adjourn, and we resume, Monday, the 10th of August, 9.30 in

18     the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.42 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of August,

21                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.